From taraprakash at gmail.com Fri Oct 1 09:45:34 2010 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 00:15:34 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?q?Fwd=3A_The_Indian_version_of_the_map_name?= =?utf-8?q?d_=E2=80=9CJammu_and_Kashmir=E2=80=9D_is_a_cartographic_?= =?utf-8?q?illusion=2C?= References: Message-ID: <1CE35AA1EC4B4D7EA79CDDB2A65622FF@tara> India often talks about “Pakistani-occupied Kashmir” but never mentions Aksai Chin, the area under Chinese control since 1962. There was no mention of China in the 1994 special resolution. In fact, such demands are never made to the Chinese. Kashmiris see this as a duplicitous position that avoids facing China but seeks confrontation with Pakistan, which has significantly less military power. US did Iraq but not North Korea or USSR because Iraq was weak. It's a universal tendency to ignore the injustices of the stronger. Besides China is not willing to rule Kashmir, Pakistan is. I believe Kashmiris should be asked if they wanted to be ruled by China. Kashmir will be better of as part of china than an independent country which will end up being another Somalia if not worse. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shahnawaz Khan" To: "sarai list" Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2010 11:48 AM Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: The Indian version of the map named “Jammu and Kashmir” is a cartographic illusion, > *WORLD KASHMIR DIASPORA ALLIANCE* > * ** * > *A patina of fiction guides India's policy in Kashmir* > > > > Since January 2009, the weekly news magazine The Economist has been banned > or censored in India 31 times, more than any other country. The main > reason > for censorship is the publication of a map of Kashmir that does not comply > with the Indian version. As a result, Indian authorities stamp “Illegal” > across it. > > The twist is that the “illegal” map is in fact an accurate depiction of > Jammu and Kashmir, with due appreciation of Pakistani and > Chinese-controlled > territories. > A cursory look at the map of India shows Kashmir sitting atop a vast land > mass. > > Despite being the site of decades of misery and violence, Kashmir enjoys > pride of place. Secular Indian politicians and Hindu fundamentalists alike > describe it as the taj, or crown, of India. Amid that triumphalism, the > sufferings of Kashmiris are drowned out. > > When Kashmiris rebel, and the brutal state response results in innocent > blood spilt, the world takes momentary notice. On such occasions, India > almost always blames Kashmiri dissent on Pakistan, Islam or terrorism. For > some time now, the militant group Lashkar-i-Taiba has provided a > convenient > straw man. Indian authorities have blamed it for orchestrating stone > throwing by Kashmiri youths who are actually protesting murders by the > Indian forces. > > The Indian version of the map named “Jammu and Kashmir” is a cartographic > illusion, a state cobbled together out of disparate cultural, ethnic and > linguistic groups. The British sold it to a local Hindu chieftain who had > aided them against the Sikhs. > > Gulab Singh, the “buyer” of the kingdom, had little regard for its > inhabitants, a majority of whom were Muslims. In 1947, the borders were > redrawn according to the fantasy of Jawaharlal Nehru, India’s first prime > minister and Kashmiri by descent. India and Pakistan took over, and an > intractable dispute was born that has cursed the region ever since. > > Long before, China had refused to accept the border arrangements between > the > British Empire, Afghanistan and Russia in the northern area of Kashmir. > This > position was maintained after the communist takeover in 1949 and led to > the > Sino-Indian war in 1962. This ended with the Chinese taking control of a > large north-eastern portion known as Aksai Chin. > > At present, Kashmir is divided between India, Pakistan and China – India > controls the majority of the territory in the central and southern areas > totalling 141,338 square kilometres. Pakistan’s northwest portion, known > as > Azad Kashmir and Gilgit-Baltistan, covers 85,846 square kilometres. The > area > under Chinese control consists of 37,555 square kilometres of mainly > deserted territory, but with precious water resources thanks to its > proximity to the Karakoram mountain range. > > India’s “legal” map, found everywhere from government stationery to > administrative reports and postal stamps to surveys, is based on an > elaborate hoax, in which the whole of Kashmir belongs to India. The map is > taught in schools, often with a fundamentalist religious zeal, creating > generations of ignorant, and often militant, Indians who are unwilling to > entertain any view other than the official line. This has frozen India’s > political process. > > As a Kashmiri born under Indian occupation, I was taught the same “Indian > geography”. It was much later that I realised this geographical delusion > represents an elaborate denial of history – the unfulfilled Indian > promises > of holding a plebiscite to allow Kashmiris to determine their own future. > The relic of the colonial map has stolen the democratic rights of > Kashmiris. > > Whenever Kashmiris seek self-determination, India ruthlessly clamps down > on > them. By continuously advancing myths about geography and re-writing > history, India portrays Kashmiri demands for justice as a grave threat, > not > only to India’s integrity as a nation-state, but also against the Bharat > Mata, the Hindu concept of India as a sacred religious space. > > Another long-running theme is references to “Pakistan-occupied Kashmir”. > In > early 1994, at the height of the Kashmiri resistance, the Indian > parliament > unanimously passed a special resolution reiterating that the whole of > Jammu > and Kashmir belonged to India. The resolution also demanded: “Pakistan > must > vacate the areas of the Indian State of Jammu and Kashmir, which they have > occupied through aggression.” > > Just last week, the Pakistani government, under pressure after recent > deaths > during Kashmir protests, called on India to “review the practice of > describing Jammu and Kashmir as its integral part”. The Indian reaction > was > unequivocal. SM Krishna, the external affairs minister, responded that > Pakistan is in “illegal occupation of some parts of Jammu and Kashmir... > It > is desirable that they vacate that [the Pakistani part] and then start > advising India as to how to go about doing things in Kashmir.” > > India often talks about “Pakistani-occupied Kashmir” but never mentions > Aksai Chin, the area under Chinese control since 1962. There was no > mention > of China in the 1994 special resolution. In fact, such demands are never > made to the Chinese. Kashmiris see this as a duplicitous position that > avoids facing China but seeks confrontation with Pakistan, which has > significantly less military power. > > This self-delusional fiction about Kashmir’s origins and the heavy > military > presence mean that there is no end in sight for the Kashmir conflict. The > ongoing Kashmiri protests have so far claimed more than 100 civilian > lives, > with thousands injured, mostly by the guns of the Indian armed forces. > > In a region that includes three nuclear powers and nearly half the world’s > population, where both Hindu and Muslim extremism is on the rise, such > obduracy threatens calamity. To exorcise the ghosts of the region, India > must undo its own fable that has compromised its conscience and morality. > An > honest lesson in geography could be just the start. > > *Murtaza Shibli is the editor of recently published book on the London > bombings 7/7: Muslim Perspectives and the secretary general of the World > Kashmir Diaspora Alliance.* > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From nilankur at cultureunplugged.com Fri Oct 1 11:30:24 2010 From: nilankur at cultureunplugged.com (nilankur) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 11:30:24 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] About Wafaa Bilal Message-ID: http://truthseekers.cultureunplugged.com/truth_seekers/2010/09/is-art-political-the-dynamic-installments-of-wafaa-bilal.html Is Art Political?: Wafaa Bilal Annie Brown | 30.Sep.10 During a recent speech at Virginia Commonwealth University in Richmond, Virginia, artist Wafaa Bilal stated “all art is political.” As an activist and amateur illustrator, I found this statement interesting, especially coming from one of the most controversial artists in America. Bilal’s speech recently made me reflect on the Iraq war, and the pain it has caused. I was moved by his art, words and commitment to the anti-war effort. Countless numbers of people have debated the definition of art. Still, I ponder the question. What is art? A logical qualifier could be, “Art is the expression of the artist(s).” The artist’s expressions are able to draw deep emotions from viewers. Politics is convincing someone to act, or think differently. It is about the ability to control another person. It is about power and the body. I am a political being. My body is a part of the world and governments and laws manipulate that world. Art seems to be an expression of this intersection of politics and the body. Bilal’s body, and how it is used to elicit a strong interaction and reaction with his viewers, becomes his art. When I engage in politics as an activist, I too use my body to produce a reaction with people. I want to help people learn, engage them with the realities that face our lives, like global warming, healthcare, personal freedoms and war. I do this by organizing people to care about their rights as citizens and the rights of other people. I also create art to make myself and others think about topics and perspectives they may not have considered, or would rather avoid. Wafaa Bilal is an Iraqi-American artist. Born in Najaf, Iraq, Bilal wanted to study art in school. Because a family member was accused of disloyalty, he had to study geography instead. However, he continued to make art. He was arrested for producing art that spoke out against Saddam Hussein’s regime. Bilal fled Iraq in 1991, lived in refugee camps in Kuwait and Saudi Arabia and in 1992, moved to the United States to study art. He is now an assistant professor at the Tisch School of Arts at New York University. His art has been exhibited worldwide and has released a book entitled, “Shoot an Iraqi: Art, Life and Resistance Under the Gun.” Wafaa Bilal’s art gets attention. I asked him about the political nature of his art. Many artists distance their art from politics, because art is above politics. However, according to Bilal, Politics meant saying what had to be heard, and showing images Americans needed to see. As Bilal stated during the lecture, he felt he needed to express himself for therapeutic reasons. Bilal lost his father and his brother during the American invasion of Iraq. The loss of Bilal’s brother was the inspiration for his most well-known performance piece entitled “Domestic Tension (or Shoot and Iraqi).” Bilal’s brother was killed by a US bomb targeted by an unmanned Predator drone. Bilal watched a TV interview on which a woman described how she was able to sit in front of a computer in California and drop bombs on Iraqi targets. Bilal explained, “This military woman said she never questioned her orders.” Domestic Tension was Bilal’s way of dealing with his loss, as well as exploring the concept of virtual warfare in the 21st century. Domestic Tension was part installment, part online video game, and part disturbing commentary. Bilal set up a room with a few simple amenities, a computer hooked up to the web, and a robotic paintball gun controlled by online viewers. The gun moved with the control of a left and right button. You could aim at the artist (who had few places to hide) and shoot the robo-gun. Bilal lived in the gallery room for 31 days. He wanted to call his dynamic installment “Shoot an Iraqi,” but the gallery would not permit him to. The game gave people the ability to shoot an Iraqi. After 31 days Bilal had wounds as well as post-traumatic stress disorder. Would you take advantage of this opportunity or not? The website was not artsy, it was meant to be a popular, and shocking video game. This is how it was sold to others. Now imagine if you or I were in Bilal’s shoes. How would we react to this moment...in a box, with a robo-machine gun. I, personally, would be terrified. Also, it’s especially creepy knowing that some people might wish the gun was filled with bullets, and not paint balls. At the end of the project, Bilal’s room looked destroyed, symbolizing the destruction of an unsuspecting Iraqi family’s home. The website received over 80 million hits from people living in 136 countries. Domestic Tension became the number one ranked website on Digg.com. At one point, the website shut down because so many people were trying to shoot at the artist. Although most viewers visited the website just to see the spectacle, they became participants in the piece as soon as they fired that fantastic robotic paint-ball gun. Bilal described his piece as “dynamic.” The final product of Domestic Tension would be placed into the hand of the viewers. This way, viewers could place their own meaning into the art. This piece made Americans face issues like violence in the modern age and post 9/11 racism towards Muslim and Arab Americans. Domestic Tension is interactive art that at first might seem like a video game, but in the context of Bilal’s life and the Iraq war, it is much more. Domestic Tension’s message humanized war and politics. When you shoot Bilal, you don’t know him, you can’t talk to him, but you harm him. All you have to do is aim. Some of Bilal’s website visitors could have indeed been incredibly racist. The fact is, a large number of Americans are racist, because American society, like many other societies in the world today, is still racist. Not all website visitors shot for racist reasons, and there is no way of knowing, but I would guess a good number of them did. While Bilal has not been arrested for his art here in the United States, he certainly has been chastised, and even deemed a terrorist himself. One of his most recent pieces, entitled The Night of Bush Capturing: A Virtual Ji-Hadi, was a video game where the goal was to kill George W. Bush. As you can imagine, this did not please many Americans. After announcing that his piece would be shown, Bilal was quickly deemed a “terrorist” by American citizens and politicians. The piece gets under my skin. I can feel it crawl. The deaths of Bilal’s father and brother highlight an important part of the piece: The wish to see the President dead. It is a scary desire to share with fellow Americans. Americans celebrate their right to free speech, but many believe there are some places you just don’t go. But why not go there? If you wish to see the President dead, why would you be put in jail for saying it? Conservatives argued that Bilal’s piece should be banned, because it would incite people to kill the President. This is a clip from a 2009 news article on the law-suit filed by the The Sanctuary for Independent Media: “Bilal, a U.S. citizen and a faculty member at the Art Institute of Chicago, was invited to display his work at Rensselaer Polytechnical Institute in Troy but was abruptly ordered off campus after the school's College Republican Club raised objections to the game. Bilal was then offered space to display Virtual Jihadi at a nearby gallery- the Sanctuary for Independent Media." The gallery, however, was suddenly shut down for building code violations by Troy's Public Works Commissioner, Robert Mirch. Mirch, who is named as a defendant in the suit, had earlier led a demonstration protesting the exhibit. He called the suit politically motivated.” Freedom of expression is protected by the United States Constitution. In the United States, I should not be censored from holding a sign that speaks my mind. Similarly, an artist should not be banned from showing a piece of artwork that offends others. Art is a peaceful form of expression. It is a way to express dissent without causing violence or harm. If the body needs to express itself, who is anyone to make it stop? 1. The fact that Bilal’s video game is displayed at an art gallery for adults has little effect on the violence rates in the nation compared to the video games we allow young people to play. Children, unlike most adults that would be likely to view an art installment, have no access to means of being critical of virtual violence, and 2. The inspiration for Bilal’s piece was an American-created video game. Quest for Saddam was a game where Americans were mercilessly killing Iraqis. In it, the Iraqis only spoke stereotypical gibberish. The Night of Bush Capturing was a re-make of this original game. According to Bilal’s website, “Virtual Jihadi is meant to bring attention to the vulnerability of Iraqi civilians to the travesties of the current war and racist generalizations...The work also aims to shed light on groups that traffic in crass and hateful stereotypes of Arab culture with games like Quest for Saddam and other media.” Bilal did not choose to express himself, he had to. He had to act out against the Iraq war. However, his art is not just confronting people, he makes people interact with him through his art. His art starts discussions and debates. There are not enough people talking, thinking and learning about the Iraq war, myself included. Especially considering it has been going on for so long and killed so many people. Bilal explains his work- “In these difficult times, when we are at war with another nation, it is our duty as artists and citizens to improvise strategies of engagement for dialogue. This platform is a piece of fiction that uses the video game format to create alternative narratives and perspectives. Because we inhabit a comfort zone far from the trauma of conflict zone, we Americans have become desensitized to the violence of war. We are disconnected, disengaged while many others do the suffering. The game holds up a mirror that reveals our own propensities for violence, racism and propaganda. We can close our eyes, our ears and deny that it exists, but the issue won’t go away.” Bilal’s art focuses on the experience of Iraqi people and the importance of peaceful conflict resolution, as well as a society free from racism. He creates art, because, as he stated at the VCU lecture, “I must.” Bilal’s drive to express himself forces Americans to confront shocking realities using his body and digital art, which creates a political and emotionally engaging image. Citations: http://www.wafaabilal.com/ http://www.wafaabilal.com/html/virtualJ.html http://www.gamepolitics.com/category/topics/wafaa-bilal nilankur 'frame voice. find vigor' http://www.cultureunplugged.com/filmedia/truthSeekers.php From chandni_parekh at yahoo.com Fri Oct 1 16:28:00 2010 From: chandni_parekh at yahoo.com (Chandni Parekh) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 03:58:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Film Screenings in October Message-ID: <260005.29221.qm@web54405.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Chandni Parekh sent a message to the members of Vikalp at Prithvi group on Facebook. Subject: Film Screenings in October Information on documentaries and other films being shown in October: 'Beating the Bomb' by Meera Patel and Wolfgang Matt, Oct 1, Bombay 'Guernica' by Robert Hessens and Alain Resnais (French) and 'Flanders' by Bruno Dumont, Oct 1, Delhi Short Films presented by Shamiana, Oct 1, Ahmedabad 'AFSPA, 1958' by Haobam Paban Kumar, Oct 6, Kolkata Corto Film Festival - Festival of Italian Short Films, Oct 6, 9, 13, 16, Delhi 'Leaving Home - The Life and Music of Indian Ocean' by Jaideep Varma, Oct 14, Bombay 'Looking for Cheyenne' by Valérie Minetto (French), Oct 15, Delhi Films by Charlie Chaplin, Oct 16-21, Delhi 'Shamans Of The Himalayas' by Anu Malhotra, Oct 19 and 21, Delhi 'The Maharaja Of Jodhpur – The Legacy Lives On…' by Anu Malhotra, Oct 20, Delhi 'Sotto il Celio Azzurro' ('A School with a View') by Edoardo Winspeare (Italian), Oct 20 and 23, Delhi 12th Mumbai Film Festival, Oct 21-28 'TAPASYA: Ascetic Power and Tales of the Ganges' by Rajika Puri, Oct 22, Delhi 'Love Songs' by Christophe Honoré (French), Oct 22, Delhi 'On the Right Track' by Rita Banerji, Oct 24, Delhi Vikalp at Prithvi presents 'Harlan County, USA' by Barbara Kopple, Oct 25, 7 pm, Prithvi House, Juhu, Bombay Screening of Poetry Films, Oct 26, Delhi 'Gli amici del bar Margherita' ('Friends at the Margherita Café') by Pupi Avati (Italian), Oct 27 and 30, Delhi 'Tiger Queen' by Nallamuthu, Oct 29, Delhi 2nd Cinema of Resistance Nainital Film Festival, Oct 29-31 Details, as always, on the Discussion Board of http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=46819848804 - Chandni From anivar at movingrepublic.org Fri Oct 1 17:45:56 2010 From: anivar at movingrepublic.org (Anivar Aravind) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 17:45:56 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] ViBGYOR 2011: CALL for Entries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: *ViBGYOR 2011: CALL for Entries* http://vibgyorfilm.org/2011/callforentries ** Welcome to the 6th Edition of ViBGYOR International Film Festival for Short & Documentary films, to be held in Thrissur, Kerala, India from January 12-16, 2011! The 6th ViBGYOR is dedicated to the memory of late C. Saratchandran, the noted filmmaker and activist and our friend and co-traveler at ViBGYOR. Accordingly we have chosen ‘*Political Filmmaking and Media Activism in South Asia’* as the special focus theme of the year. Anand Padvardhan is the festival Director for 2011 VIBGYOR. Due to time and space constraints we can only screen around 100 films at the festival. If you or a friend wishes to send a recent film/s (Documentaries/Short Fiction/Animations/ Music Videos/Spots) to ViBGYOR, we shall gladly include them in the *PREVIEW* for preliminary selection. An eminent panel of Jury will select the final set of films to be screened at the Festival. The last date for film submissions is *November 15th, 2010 *(postmarked). *Download Entry Forms from http://vibgyorfilm.org/2011/entryform2011.pdf* Don’t forget to include all required documents/material (duly filled Entry Form, Synopsis, production details, stills form the film etc) as hard copy or preferably as soft copy on a separate CD. You can also email to us these details and stills as well, but ensure that you comply with standrard file formats and resolution requirements. Send queries to vibgyorfilmfest at gmail.com or contact ViBGYOR Film Collective directly: *+919809477058/ +91 487-2323590 * 1. There is no Entry Fee. Last date of film submission: November 15th , 2010. To address possible technical glitches during screening we advise you to send 2 DVD copies of your film/s 2. Address the film packet to ViBGYOR, 2nd Floor Kalliath Square, Palace Road, Thrissur, Kerala 680 020, Tel. +91-487-2323590/+919809477058*.*Send film synopsis, film stills, director’s photograph and production details as soft copy (CD) or email them to vibgyorfilmfest at gmail.com 3. All selected films will receive a Certificate of Participation. ViBGYOR is a non-competitive Film Festival, so thre are no Awards. However we might award filmmaking *Fellowships* to deserving young filmmakers as per the recommendations of the Selection Jury. 4. All selected filmmakers are invited to attend the festival and are assured of local hospitality. (ViBGYOR is not in a position to pay for travel expenses). 5. With your presumed permission, we might inlude Selected/Non-selected films in the *ViBGYOR Touring Festival* conducted in schools, colleges and villages and small towns in Kerala and elsewhere. 6. For detailed information, please log on to www.vibgyorfilm.org *DOWNLOAD ENTRY FORM* Warmly, *Mustafa Desamangalam*, Exe. Director, ViBGYOR-2011 (+91 9447743040), *Benny Benedict*, Secretary, ViBGYOR Film Collective (+91 9447000830), *Seena Panoli*, Joint Secretary, ViBGYOR Film Collective (9447546417) -- Anivar Aravind From indersalim at gmail.com Fri Oct 1 18:58:16 2010 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 18:58:16 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?Fwd=3A_The_Indian_version_of_the_m?= =?windows-1252?q?ap_named_=93Jammu_and_Kashmir=94_is_a_cartographi?= =?windows-1252?q?c_illusion=2C?= In-Reply-To: <1CE35AA1EC4B4D7EA79CDDB2A65622FF@tara> References: <1CE35AA1EC4B4D7EA79CDDB2A65622FF@tara> Message-ID: Thanks dear TaraPrakash ji this is very interesting , about the Map it is amazing how the same stamp ILLEGAL can make it relevant for those who designed it even yes the entire area has been taken over by three countries. "At present, Kashmir is divided between India, Pakistan and China " but the author should write  Jammu and Kashmir and Ladakh , instead of Kashmir only. this is besides the point that fewer people are speaking Kashmiri in those area... i wonder if we ever heard a thing from Chinese controlled area, not because they are under Chinese occupation, but their political moorings would be different from Kashmir conflict, best is On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 9:45 AM, TaraPrakash wrote: > > India often talks about “Pakistani-occupied Kashmir” but never mentions > Aksai Chin, the area under Chinese control since 1962. There was no mention > of China in the 1994 special resolution. In fact, such demands are never > made to the Chinese. Kashmiris see this as a duplicitous position that > avoids facing China but seeks confrontation with Pakistan, which has > significantly less military power. > > US did Iraq but not North Korea or USSR because Iraq was weak. It's a universal tendency to ignore the injustices of the stronger. Besides China is not willing to rule Kashmir, Pakistan is. I believe Kashmiris should be asked if they wanted to be ruled by China. Kashmir will be better of as part of china than an independent country which will end up being another Somalia if not worse. > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shahnawaz Khan" > To: "sarai list" > Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2010 11:48 AM > Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: The Indian version of the map named “Jammu and Kashmir” is a cartographic illusion, > > >> *WORLD KASHMIR DIASPORA ALLIANCE* >> * ** * >> *A patina of fiction guides India's policy in Kashmir* >> >> >> >> Since January 2009, the weekly news magazine The Economist has been banned >> or censored in India 31 times, more than any other country. The main reason >> for censorship is the publication of a map of Kashmir that does not comply >> with the Indian version. As a result, Indian authorities stamp “Illegal” >> across it. >> >> The twist is that the “illegal” map is in fact an accurate depiction of >> Jammu and Kashmir, with due appreciation of Pakistani and Chinese-controlled >> territories. >> A cursory look at the map of India shows Kashmir sitting atop a vast land >> mass. >> >> Despite being the site of decades of misery and violence, Kashmir enjoys >> pride of place. Secular Indian politicians and Hindu fundamentalists alike >> describe it as the taj, or crown, of India. Amid that triumphalism, the >> sufferings of Kashmiris are drowned out. >> >> When Kashmiris rebel, and the brutal state response results in innocent >> blood spilt, the world takes momentary notice. On such occasions, India >> almost always blames Kashmiri dissent on Pakistan, Islam or terrorism. For >> some time now, the militant group Lashkar-i-Taiba has provided a convenient >> straw man. Indian authorities have blamed it for orchestrating stone >> throwing by Kashmiri youths who are actually protesting murders by the >> Indian forces. >> >> The Indian version of the map named “Jammu and Kashmir” is a cartographic >> illusion, a state cobbled together out of disparate cultural, ethnic and >> linguistic groups. The British sold it to a local Hindu chieftain who had >> aided them against the Sikhs. >> >> Gulab Singh, the “buyer” of the kingdom, had little regard for its >> inhabitants, a majority of whom were Muslims. In 1947, the borders were >> redrawn according to the fantasy of Jawaharlal Nehru, India’s first prime >> minister and Kashmiri by descent. India and Pakistan took over, and an >> intractable dispute was born that has cursed the region ever since. >> >> Long before, China had refused to accept the border arrangements between the >> British Empire, Afghanistan and Russia in the northern area of Kashmir. This >> position was maintained after the communist takeover in 1949 and led to the >> Sino-Indian war in 1962. This ended with the Chinese taking control of a >> large north-eastern portion known as Aksai Chin. >> >> At present, Kashmir is divided between India, Pakistan and China – India >> controls the majority of the territory in the central and southern areas >> totalling 141,338 square kilometres. Pakistan’s northwest portion, known as >> Azad Kashmir and Gilgit-Baltistan, covers 85,846 square kilometres. The area >> under Chinese control consists of 37,555 square kilometres of mainly >> deserted territory, but with precious water resources thanks to its >> proximity to the Karakoram mountain range. >> >> India’s “legal” map, found everywhere from government stationery to >> administrative reports and postal stamps to surveys, is based on an >> elaborate hoax, in which the whole of Kashmir belongs to India. The map is >> taught in schools, often with a fundamentalist religious zeal, creating >> generations of ignorant, and often militant, Indians who are unwilling to >> entertain any view other than the official line. This has frozen India’s >> political process. >> >> As a Kashmiri born under Indian occupation, I was taught the same “Indian >> geography”. It was much later that I realised this geographical delusion >> represents an elaborate denial of history – the unfulfilled Indian promises >> of holding a plebiscite to allow Kashmiris to determine their own future. >> The relic of the colonial map has stolen the democratic rights of Kashmiris. >> >> Whenever Kashmiris seek self-determination, India ruthlessly clamps down on >> them. By continuously advancing myths about geography and re-writing >> history, India portrays Kashmiri demands for justice as a grave threat, not >> only to India’s integrity as a nation-state, but also against the Bharat >> Mata, the Hindu concept of India as a sacred religious space. >> >> Another long-running theme is references to “Pakistan-occupied Kashmir”. In >> early 1994, at the height of the Kashmiri resistance, the Indian parliament >> unanimously passed a special resolution reiterating that the whole of Jammu >> and Kashmir belonged to India. The resolution also demanded: “Pakistan must >> vacate the areas of the Indian State of Jammu and Kashmir, which they have >> occupied through aggression.” >> >> Just last week, the Pakistani government, under pressure after recent deaths >> during Kashmir protests, called on India to “review the practice of >> describing Jammu and Kashmir as its integral part”. The Indian reaction was >> unequivocal. SM Krishna, the external affairs minister, responded that >> Pakistan is in “illegal occupation of some parts of Jammu and Kashmir... It >> is desirable that they vacate that [the Pakistani part] and then start >> advising India as to how to go about doing things in Kashmir.” >> >> India often talks about “Pakistani-occupied Kashmir” but never mentions >> Aksai Chin, the area under Chinese control since 1962. There was no mention >> of China in the 1994 special resolution. In fact, such demands are never >> made to the Chinese. Kashmiris see this as a duplicitous position that >> avoids facing China but seeks confrontation with Pakistan, which has >> significantly less military power. >> >> This self-delusional fiction about Kashmir’s origins and the heavy military >> presence mean that there is no end in sight for the Kashmir conflict. The >> ongoing Kashmiri protests have so far claimed more than 100 civilian lives, >> with thousands injured, mostly by the guns of the Indian armed forces. >> >> In a region that includes three nuclear powers and nearly half the world’s >> population, where both Hindu and Muslim extremism is on the rise, such >> obduracy threatens calamity. To exorcise the ghosts of the region, India >> must undo its own fable that has compromised its conscience and morality. An >> honest lesson in geography could be just the start. >> >> *Murtaza Shibli is the editor of recently published book on the London >> bombings 7/7: Muslim Perspectives and the secretary general of the World >> Kashmir Diaspora Alliance.* >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From peter.ksmtf at gmail.com Sat Oct 2 09:01:14 2010 From: peter.ksmtf at gmail.com (T Peter) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 09:01:14 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] No new constructions in CRZ area: Ramesh In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No new constructions in CRZ area: Ramesh http://www.thehindu.com/2010/10/02/stories/2010100254370400.htm K.S. Sudhi ‘Dwelling units of local communities can be repaired, rebuilt' -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ministry open to suggestions on notification Booklets in local languages to be circulated -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- KOCHI: No new constructions, except facilities for local communities, will be permitted in the Coastal Regulation Zone (CRZ) area of backwater islands in Kerala, says Union Minister of State for Environment and Forests Jairam Ramesh. The National Fishworkers Forum (NFF), a national federation of trade unions and organisations of fish workers, in a complaint to the Ministry, has alleged that the setback area in the backwater islands in Kerala has been reduced to 50 metres for the benefit of hoteliers and developers who have acquired large chunks of land in the islands. According to NFF chairman Mathanhy Saldanha, most of these islands have been purchased by the tourism lobby. The new notification is aimed at protecting the interests of the tourism sector and not fishermen communities. It will do no good for the coastal ecosystem and the environment. Responding to the criticism, Mr. Ramesh says the draft CRZ Notification, 2010 has stated that existing dwelling units of local communities could be repaired or reconstructed and no new constructions shall be carried out in the CRZ area of all islands in the backwaters of Kerala. It is mentioned in the notification that islands within the backwaters shall have a 50-m CRZ area from the High Tide Line on the landward side. Foreshore facilities such as fishing jetty, fish-drying yards, net-mending yards, fish processing by traditional methods, boat-building yards, ice plants and boat-repair units will be permitted within the 50-metre limit, Mr. Ramesh says in an e-mail to The Hindu. The fishermen's forum has argued against giving special status to Kerala, Goa and Navi Mumbai. Mr. Saldanha has said that “if at all any special consideration has to be given, it should be done after detailed scientific assessments and not a blanket relaxation as prescribed by the notification.” Mr. Ramesh says that special dispensation has been provided for slum redevelopment and dilapidated structure reconstruction in Mumbai, reconstruction/ repair of dwellings of local communities of Goa, relaxation of No Development Zone for Kerala and preparation of a special management plan for the identified Critical Vulnerable Coastal Areas such as the Gulf of Khambat and the Gulf of Kutchchh in Gujarat, Vembanad in Kerala, Bhaitarkanika in Orissa, Coringa, East Godavari and Krishna in Andhra Pradesh. It has been pointed out during public consultations that local communities in the backwaters islands of Kerala and traditional communities in Sunderbans and other ecologically sensitive areas are facing hardship, he says. The Ministry is open to suggestions for improving the notification. Booklets in local languages highlighting the features of the notification will be circulated and posted on the web site of the Ministry, he says. http://www.keralafishworkers.in http://www.alakal.net From patrice at xs4all.nl Sat Oct 2 15:17:37 2010 From: patrice at xs4all.nl (Patrice Riemens) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 11:47:37 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] Siddharth Varadarajan: Force of faith trumps law and reason in Ayodhya case (The Hindu) Message-ID: bwo Goanet Force of faith trumps law and reason in Ayodhya case By Siddharth Varadarajan The Hindu, Friday, Oct 01, 2010 http://www.hindu.com/2010/10/01/stories/2010100163711400.htm If left unamended by the Supreme Court, the legal, social and political repercussions of the judgment are likely to be extremely damaging New Delhi: The Lucknow Bench of the Allahabad High Court has made judicial history by deciding a long pending legal dispute over a piece of property in Ayodhya on the basis of an unverified and unsubstantiated reference to the "faith and belief of Hindus." The irony is that in doing so, the court has inadvertently provided a shot in the arm for a political movement that cited the very same "faith" and "belief" to justify its open defiance of the law and the Indian Constitution. That defiance reached its apogee in 1992, when a 500-year-old mosque which stood at the disputed site was destroyed. The legal and political system in India stood silent witness to that crime of trespass, vandalism and expropriation. Eighteen years later, the country has compounded that sin by legitimising the "faith" and "belief" of those who took the law into their own hands. The three learned judges of the Allahabad High Court may have rendered separate judgments on the title suit in the Babri Masjid- Ramjanmabhoomi case but Justices Sudhir Agarwal, S.U. Khan and Dharam Veer Sharma all seem to agree on one central point: that the Hindu plaintiffs in the case have a claim to the disputed site because "as per [the] faith and belief of the Hindus" the place under the central dome of the Babri Masjid where the idols of Ram Lalla were placed surreptitiously in 1949 is indeed the "birthplace" of Lord Ram. For every Hindu who believes the spot under the central dome of the Babri Masjid is the precise spot where Lord Ram was born there is another who believes something else. But leaving aside the question of who "the Hindus" referred to by the court really are and how their actual faith and belief was ascertained and measured, it is odd that a court of law should give such weight to theological considerations and constructs rather than legal reasoning and facts. Tulsidas wrote his Ramcharitmanas in 16th century Ayodhya but made no reference to the birthplace of Lord Rama that the court has now identified with such exacting precision five centuries later. The "faith and belief" that the court speaks about today acquired salience only after the Vishwa Hindu Parishad and the Bharatiya Janata Party launched a political campaign in the 1980s to "liberate" the "janmasthan." Collectives in India have faith in all sorts of things but "faith" cannot become the arbiter of what is right and wrong in law. Nor can the righting of supposed historical wrongs become the basis for dispensing justice today. In 1993, the Supreme Court wisely refused to answer a Presidential Reference made to it by the Narasimha Rao government seeking its opinion on whether a Hindu temple once existed at the Babri Masjid site. Yet, the High Court saw fit to frame a number of questions that ought to have had absolutely no bearing on the title suit which was before it. One of the questions the court framed was "whether the building has been constructed on the site of an alleged Hindu temple after demolishing the same." Pursuant to this question, it asked the Archaeological Survey of India to conduct a dig at the site. This was done in 2003, during the time when the BJP-led National Democratic Alliance government was in power at the Centre. Not surprisingly, the ASI concluded that there was a "massive Hindu religious structure" below, a finding that was disputed by many archaeologists and historians. The territory of India - as of many countries with a settled civilisation as old as ours - is full of buildings that were constructed after pre-existing structures were demolished to make way for them. Buddhist shrines made way for Hindu temples. Temples have made way for mosques. Mosques have made way for temples. So even if a temple was demolished in the 16th century to make way for the Babri Masjid, what legal relevance can that have in the 21st century? And if such demolition is to serve as the basis for settling property disputes today, where do we draw the line? On the walls of the Gyanvapi mosque in Varanasi can be seen the remnants of a Hindu temple, perhaps even of the original Vishwanath mandir. Certainly many "Hindus" believe the mosque is built on land that is especially sacred to them. The denouement of the Babri case from agitation and demolition to possession might easily serve as a precedent for politicians looking to come to power on the basis of heightening religious tensions. Even assuming the tainted ASI report is correct in its assessment that a Hindu temple lay below the ruins of the Babri Masjid, neither the ASI nor any other expert has any scientific basis for claiming the architects of the mosque were the ones who did the demolishing. And yet two of the three High Court judges have concluded that the mosque was built after a temple was demolished. >From at least the 19th century, if not earlier, we know that both Hindus and Muslims worshipped within the 2.77 acre site, the latter within the Babri Masjid building and the former at the Ram Chhabutra built within the mosque compound. This practice came to an end in 1949 when politically motivated individuals broke into the mosque and placed idols of Ram Lalla within. After 1949, both communities were denied access though Hindus have been allowed to offer darshan since 1986. In suggesting a three way partition of the site, the High Court has taken a small step towards the restoration of the religious status quo ante which prevailed before politicians got into the act. But its reasoning is flawed and even dangerous. If left unamended by the Supreme Court, the legal, social and political repercussions of the judgment are likely to be extremely damaging. ### From indersalim at gmail.com Sat Oct 2 15:46:54 2010 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 15:46:54 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?Gandhi=92s_Last_Fast=3A_January_13?= =?windows-1252?q?-18=2C_1948?= Message-ID: http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=503970112&ref=ts#!/notes/dilip-simeon/another-time-another-mosque/438972002297 -- Text of the Delhi Declaration on communal harmony, January 18, 1948. Extracted from a recently written online lecture, 'Mahatma Gandh’s Legacy' Gandhi’s Last Fast: January 13-18, 1948 >From September 1947, the communal situation in north India became grievous. Massacres were taking place in Punjab and Sindh, sparking off the migration of over ten million Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims. In September, hundreds of Muslims of Delhi had been killed in Karol Bagh, Subzi Mandi and Paharganj. Tens of thousands of Hindu and Sikh refugees from Punjab were crammed into Diwan Hall, Chandni Chowk and Kingsway Camp; while thousands of Muslims, including Meos from Alwar and Bharatpur, camped in fear in Jamia Millia, Puran Qila and Humayun’s Tomb. The life of Dr Zakir Husain, VC of Jamia Millia and president of the Hindustani Talimi Sangh, was saved by a Sikh army captain and a Hindu railway official. Upon arrival in Delhi on September 9, Gandhi was asked to stay not in the sweepers colony (his prefered residence in the city), but in Birla House. Gandhi plunged into the turmoil around him, travelling to nearby places, talking to refugees and cadres of social organisations. On December 22, he made this announcement at his prayer meeting: “Some eight or ten miles from here, at Mehrauli, there is a shrine of Qutubuddin Bakhtiyar Chisti. Esteemed as second only to the shrine at Ajmer, it is visited every year not only by Muslims but by thousands of non-Muslims too. Last September this shrine was subjected to the wrath of Hindu mobs. The Muslims living in the vicinity of the shrine for the last 800 years had to leave their  homes. I mention this sad episode to tell you that, though Muslims love the shrine, today no Muslim can be found anywhere near it. It is the duty of the Hindus, Sikhs, the officials and the Government to open the shrine again and wash off this stain on us. The same applies to other shrines and religious places of Muslims in and around Delhi. The time has come when both India and Pakistan must unequivocally declare to the majorities in each country that they will not tolerate desecration of religious places, be they small or big. They should also undertake to repair the places damaged during riots.” (CWMG, vol 98, p 98-99). This was the background to his last protest. There was also the matter of the Government’s decision to withhold payment of Pakistan’s share of undivided India’s sterling balance. We may take it that the fast was undertaken both to restore the mosque and to convey to the public his feelings about ongoing events. It began on January 13, 1948 and was announced at his prayer meeting that evening. He said: “Now that I have started my fast many people cannot understand what I am doing, who are the offenders – Hindus or Sikhs or Muslims. How long will the fast last? I say I do not blame anyone. Who am I to accuse others? I have said that we have all sinned.” He continued: “I shall terminate the fast only when peace has returned to Delhi. If peace is restored to Delhi it will have effect not only on the whole of India but also on Pakistan and when that happens, a Muslim can walk around in the city all by himself. I shall then terminate the fast. Delhi is the capital of India. It has always been the capital of India. So long as things do not return to normal in Delhi, they will not be normal either in India or in Pakistan. Today I cannot bring Suhrawardy here because I fear someone may insult him. Today he cannot walk about in the streets of Delhi. If he did he would be assaulted. What I want is that he should be able to move about here even in the dark. It is true that he made efforts in Calcutta only when Muslims became involved. Still, he could have made the situation worse, if he had wanted, but he did not want to make things worse. He made the Muslims evacuate the places they had forcibly occupied and said that he being the Premier could do so. Although the places occupied by the Muslims belonged to Hindus and Sikhs he did his duty. Even if it takes a whole month to have real peace established in Delhi it does not matter. People should not do anything merely to have me terminate the fast. So my wish is that Hindus, Sikhs, Parsis, Christians and Muslims who are in India should continue to live in India and India should become a country where everyone’s life and property are safe. Only then will India progress.” The People’s Reaction Delhi was visibly affected by Gandhi’s fast. Addressing a gathering of three hundred thousand people on January 17, Maulana Azad announced seven tests given him by Gandhi to be fulfilled and guaranteed by responsible people. They included freedom of worship to Muslims at the tomb of Khwaja Bakhtiar Chishti, non-interference with the Urs festival due to be held there; the voluntary evacuation by non-Muslims of all mosques in Delhi that were being used as houses or which had been converted into temples; free movement of Muslims in areas where they used to stay; complete safety to Muslims while travelling by train; no economic boycott of Muslims; and freedom to Muslim evacuees to return to Delhi.” That evening a procession of citizens walked to Birla House where Jawaharlal Nehru addressed them. Gandhi’s speech was read out at the prayer meeting, attended by some four thousand people. Among other things, he said: “My fast should not be considered a political move in any sense of the term. It is in obedience to the peremptory call of conscience and duty. It comes out of felt agony. I call to witness all my numerous Muslim friends in Delhi. Their representatives meet me almost every day to report the day’s events. Neither Rajas and Maharajas nor Hindus and Sikhs or any others would serve themselves or India as a whole, if at this, what is to me a sacred juncture, they mislead me with a view to terminating my fast” (CWMG 98:248). On January 18, Gandhi ended his fast. Over a hundred representatives of various organizations including the Hindu Mahasabha, Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh and Jamiat-ul-Ulema who had assembled at Rajendra Prasad’s residence, called on Gandhiji at 11.30 a.m. Those present included Jawaharlal Nehru, Abul Kalam Azad, Rajendra Prasad, INA General Shah Nawaz Khan, Hifzur Rahman and Zaheed Hussain, Pakistan’s High Commissioner. Dr. Rajendra Prasad reported that even those who had some doubts on the previous night were confident that they could ask Gandhiji with a full sense of responsibility to break the fast. As the President of the Congress, Rajendra Prasad said that he had signed the document in view of the guarantee which they had all jointly and severally given. Khurshid, the Chief Commissioner and Randhawa, Deputy Commissioner of Delhi, had signed the document on behalf of the administration. It had been decided to set up a number of committees to implement the pledge. Rajendra Prasad hoped that Gandhiji would now terminate his fast. Deshbandhu Gupta described scenes of fraternization between Hindus and Muslims which he had witnessed when a procession of Muslims was taken out that morning in Subzimandi and was received with ovation and offered fruit and refreshments by the Hindu inhabitants. A seven-point declaration in Hindi was read out solemnly affirming the people’s desire for communal harmony and civic peace: SEVEN-POINT DECLARATION OF JANUARY 18, 1948 “We wish to announce that it is our heart-felt desire that the Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs and members of the other communities should once again live in Delhi like brothers and in perfect amity and we take the pledge that we shall protect the life, property and faith of Muslims and that the incidents which have taken place in Delhi will not happen again. “We want to assure Gandhiji that the annual fair at Khwaja Qutub-ud-Din Mazar will be held this year as in the previous years. “Muslims will be able to move about in Subzimandi, Karol Bagh, Paharganj and other localities just as they could in the past. “The mosques which have been left by Muslims and which now are in the possession of Hindus and Sikhs will be returned. The areas which have been set apart for Muslims will not be forcibly occupied. “We shall not object to the return to Delhi of the Muslims who have migrated from here if they choose to come back and Muslims shall be able to carry on their business as before. “We assure that all these things will be done by our personal effort and not with the help of the police or military. “We request Mahatmaji to believe us and to give up his fast and continue to lead us as he has done hitherto.” .” (CWMG, vol 98, p 249, 253). Gandhi’s Speech on the Delhi Declaration In his reply, Gandhi said: “I am happy to hear what you have told me, but if you have overlooked one point all this will be worth nothing. If this declaration means that you will safeguard Delhi and whatever happens outside Delhi will be no concern of yours, you will be committing a grave error and it will be sheer foolishness on my part to break my fast. You must have seen the Press reports of the happenings in Allahabad, if not, look them up. I understand that the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh and the Hindu Mahasabha are among the signatories to this declaration. It will amount to breach of faith on their part if they hold themselves responsible for peace in Delhi, but not in other places. I have been observing that this sort of deception is being practised in the country these days on a large scale. Delhi is the heart - the capital of India. The leaders from the whole of India have assembled here. Men had become beasts. But if those who have assembled here, who constitute the cream among men cannot make the whole of India understand that  Hindus, Muslims and followers of other religions are like brothers, it bodes ill for both the Dominions. What will be the fate of India if we continue to quarrel with one another?... Let us take no step that may become a cause for repentance later on. The situation demands courage of the highest order from us. We have to consider whether or not we can accomplish what we are going to promise. If you are not confident of fulfilling your pledge, do not ask me to give up my fast. It is for you and the whole of India to translate it into reality. It may not be possible to realize it in a day. I do not possess the requisite strength for it. But I can assure you that till today our face was turned  towards Satan, we have now resolved to turn towards God. If what I have told you fails to find an echo in your hearts or if you are convinced that it is beyond you, tell me so frankly. What greater folly can there be than to claim that Hindustan is only for Hindus and Pakistan is for Muslims alone? The refugees here should realize that things in Pakistan will be set right by the example set in Delhi. I am not one to be afraid of fasting. Time and again I have gone on fasts and if occasion arises I may again do so. Whatever therefore you do, do after careful thought and consideration. The Muslim friends frequently meet me and assure me that peaceful atmosphere has been restored in Delhi and Hindus and Muslims can live in amity here. If these friends have any misgivings in their hearts and feel that today they have perforce to stay here - as they have nowhere else to go to - but ultimately they will have to part company, let them admit it to me frankly. To set things right in the whole of India and Pakistan is no doubt a Herculean task. But I am an optimist. Once I resolve to do something I refuse to accept defeat. Today you assure me that Hindus and Muslims have become one but if Hindus continue to regard Muslims as Yavans and asuras, incapable of realizing God, and Muslims regard Hindus likewise, it will be the worst kind of blasphemy. A Muslim friend presented me with a book in Patna. Its author is an eminent Muslim. The book says: “God ordains that a kafir - and a Hindu is a kafir - is worse than a poisonous creature. He should be exterminated. It is one’s duty to be treacherous to him. Why should one treat him with any courtesy?” If Muslims still harbouring such thoughts assure Hindus about their good behaviour, they will only be deceiving Hindus. If you betray one you betray all. If I truly worship a stone image I deceive no one. For me God resides in that stone image. I feel that if the hearts of both Hindus and Muslims are full of deceipt and treachery, why need I  continue to live? “..After listening to all that I have said, if you still ask me to end my fast I shall end it. Afterwards you have to release me. I had taken the vow to do or die in Delhi and now if I am able to achieve success here I shall go to Pakistan and try to make Muslims understand their folly. Whatever happens in other places, people in Delhi should maintain peace. The refugees here should realize that they have to welcome as brothers the Muslims returning from Pakistan to Delhi. The Muslim refugees in Pakistan are suffering acute hardships and so are the Hindu refugees here. Hindus have not learnt all the crafts of Muslim craftsmen. Therefore they had better return to India. There are good men as well as bad men in all the communities. Taking into consideration all these implications, if you ask me to break my fast I shall abide by your wish. India will virtually become a prison if the present conditions continue. It may be better that you allow me to continue my fast and if God wills it He will call me.” (CWMG Vol 98, p 254-257) Maulana Azad said that the remarks about non-Muslims to which Gandhiji had referred were abhorrent to Islam. They were symptoms of the insanity that had seized some sections of the people. Maulana Hifzur Rahman insisted that Muslims wanted to remain in India as citizens with self-respect and honour. He welcomed the changed atmosphere in the city as a result of Gandhi’s fast and appealed to Gandhi to break the fast. On behalf of the Hindu Mahasabha and the R. S. S., Ganesh Datt reiterated the appeal. Pakistan’s High Commisioner Zaheed Hussain addressed a few words to Gandhiji. He said he was there to convey the deep concern of the Pakistani people about him and the anxious inquiries they made every day about his health. It was their hearts’ desire that circumstances might soon enable him to break the fast. If there was anything that he could do towards that end he was ready and so were the people of Pakistan. Zaheed Hussain was followed by Khurshid and Randhawa who on behalf of the administration reiterated the assurance that all the conditions mentioned in the citizens’ pledge would be implemented, and no effort would be spared to restore the Indian capital to its traditional harmony and peace. Sardar Harbans Singh endorsed the appeal on behalf of the Sikhs. When Rajendra Prasad said: “I have signed on behalf of the people, please break your fast,” Gandhi replied: “I shall break my fast. Let God’s will prevail. You all be witness today.” NB: The main source for the above extracts is the volume 98 of the CWMG, or Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi online, at this link. Gandhi, M.K., Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi Online. http://www.gandhiserve.org/cwmg/cwmg.html Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi Online- Controversy regarding alterations made by the NDA government in the collected works: http://www.gandhiserve.org/cwmg/cwmg_controversy.ht http://indersalim.livejournal.com From taraprakash at gmail.com Sat Oct 2 20:01:58 2010 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 10:31:58 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?q?Gandhi=E2=80=99s_Last_Fast=3A_January_13-?= =?utf-8?q?18=2C_1948?= References: Message-ID: <13ED7DD61C724D719D5F23B8DA8AE319@tara> Okay Inder. Thanks for this. I do wish one individual's stopping to eat could impact people now as it did in Gandhi's time. He was a great personage who could think beyond self interest. His main task was to build bridges between communities. He was assassinated by a RSS fanatic and some fanatics want to worship that murderer. But let us think again, was he the only murderer of Gandhi? A poet argues that Gandhi was not actually killed in a general gathering (aam sabha) he was rather killed in Lok Sabha. Gandhi badan ka naam naheen tha, usool tha Gandhi ke har usool ko thukara diya gaya, Gandhi ka katl aam sabha mein naheen hua Gandhi ko katl loksabha mein kiya gaya. Gandhi was not name of a body, he was a school. All of his principles were trashed. He was not murderered in a common gathering, he was murderered in the parliament. What do you think Gandhi would have said about Manmohanics? Only if he was not that religious I would worship him more. Contrast with Ghalib Ye masail-e-tassavuf ye tera bayan Ghalib, Tujhe ham vali samajhte Jo na badakhwar hota. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Inder Salim" To: "reader-list" Sent: Saturday, October 02, 2010 6:16 AM Subject: [Reader-list] Gandhi’s Last Fast: January 13-18, 1948 > http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=503970112&ref=ts#!/notes/dilip-simeon/another-time-another-mosque/438972002297 > > -- > > Text of the Delhi Declaration on communal harmony, January 18, 1948. > > > > Extracted from a recently written online lecture, 'Mahatma Gandh’s Legacy' > > > > Gandhi’s Last Fast: January 13-18, 1948 > > From September 1947, the communal situation in north India became > grievous. Massacres were taking place in Punjab and Sindh, sparking > off the migration of over ten million Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims. In > September, hundreds of Muslims of Delhi had been killed in Karol Bagh, > Subzi Mandi and Paharganj. Tens of thousands of Hindu and Sikh > refugees from Punjab were crammed into Diwan Hall, Chandni Chowk and > Kingsway Camp; while thousands of Muslims, including Meos from Alwar > and Bharatpur, camped in fear in Jamia Millia, Puran Qila and > Humayun’s Tomb. The life of Dr Zakir Husain, VC of Jamia Millia and > president of the Hindustani Talimi Sangh, was saved by a Sikh army > captain and a Hindu railway official. Upon arrival in Delhi on > September 9, Gandhi was asked to stay not in the sweepers colony (his > prefered residence in the city), but in Birla House. > > > > Gandhi plunged into the turmoil around him, travelling to nearby > places, talking to refugees and cadres of social organisations. On > December 22, he made this announcement at his prayer meeting: > > > > “Some eight or ten miles from here, at Mehrauli, there is a shrine of > Qutubuddin Bakhtiyar Chisti. Esteemed as second only to the shrine at > Ajmer, it is visited every year not only by Muslims but by thousands > of non-Muslims too. Last September this shrine was subjected to the > wrath of Hindu mobs. The Muslims living in the vicinity of the shrine > for the last 800 years had to leave their homes. I mention this sad > episode to tell you that, though Muslims love the shrine, today no > Muslim can be found anywhere near it. It is the duty of the Hindus, > Sikhs, the officials and the Government to open the shrine again and > wash off this stain on us. The same applies to other shrines and > religious places of Muslims in and around Delhi. The time has come > when both India and Pakistan must unequivocally declare to the > majorities in each country that they will not tolerate desecration of > religious places, be they small or big. They should also undertake to > repair the places damaged during riots.” (CWMG, vol 98, p 98-99). > > > > This was the background to his last protest. There was also the matter > of the Government’s decision to withhold payment of Pakistan’s share > of undivided India’s sterling balance. We may take it that the fast > was undertaken both to restore the mosque and to convey to the public > his feelings about ongoing events. It began on January 13, 1948 and > was announced at his prayer meeting that evening. He said: “Now that I > have started my fast many people cannot understand what I am doing, > who are the offenders – Hindus or Sikhs or Muslims. How long will the > fast last? I say I do not blame anyone. Who am I to accuse others? I > have said that we have all sinned.” > > > > He continued: “I shall terminate the fast only when peace has returned > to Delhi. If peace is restored to Delhi it will have effect not only > on the whole of India but also on Pakistan and when that happens, a > Muslim can walk around in the city all by himself. I shall then > terminate the fast. Delhi is the capital of India. It has always been > the capital of India. So long as things do not return to normal in > Delhi, they will not be normal either in India or in Pakistan. Today I > cannot bring Suhrawardy here because I fear someone may insult him. > Today he cannot walk about in the streets of Delhi. If he did he would > be assaulted. What I want is that he should be able to move about here > even in the dark. It is true that he made efforts in Calcutta only > when Muslims became involved. Still, he could have made the situation > worse, if he had wanted, but he did not want to make things worse. He > made the Muslims evacuate the places they had forcibly occupied and > said that he being the Premier could do so. Although the places > occupied by the Muslims belonged to Hindus and Sikhs he did his duty. > Even if it takes a whole month to have real peace established in Delhi > it does not matter. People should not do anything merely to have me > terminate the fast. So my wish is that Hindus, Sikhs, Parsis, > Christians and Muslims who are in India should continue to live in > India and India should become a country where everyone’s life and > property are safe. Only then will India progress.” > > > > The People’s Reaction > > Delhi was visibly affected by Gandhi’s fast. Addressing a gathering of > three hundred thousand people on January 17, Maulana Azad announced > seven tests given him by Gandhi to be fulfilled and guaranteed by > responsible people. They included freedom of worship to Muslims at the > tomb of Khwaja Bakhtiar Chishti, non-interference with the Urs > festival due to be held there; the voluntary evacuation by non-Muslims > of all mosques in Delhi that were being used as houses or which had > been converted into temples; free movement of Muslims in areas where > they used to stay; complete safety to Muslims while travelling by > train; no economic boycott of Muslims; and freedom to Muslim evacuees > to return to Delhi.” That evening a procession of citizens walked to > Birla House where Jawaharlal Nehru addressed them. Gandhi’s speech was > read out at the prayer meeting, attended by some four thousand people. > Among other things, he said: > > > > “My fast should not be considered a political move in any sense of the > term. It is in obedience to the peremptory call of conscience and > duty. It comes out of felt agony. I call to witness all my numerous > Muslim friends in Delhi. Their representatives meet me almost every > day to report the day’s events. Neither Rajas and Maharajas nor Hindus > and Sikhs or any others would serve themselves or India as a whole, if > at this, what is to me a sacred juncture, they mislead me with a view > to terminating my fast” (CWMG 98:248). > > > > On January 18, Gandhi ended his fast. Over a hundred representatives > of various organizations including the Hindu Mahasabha, Rashtriya > Swayamsevak Sangh and Jamiat-ul-Ulema who had assembled at Rajendra > Prasad’s residence, called on Gandhiji at 11.30 a.m. Those present > included Jawaharlal Nehru, Abul Kalam Azad, Rajendra Prasad, INA > General Shah Nawaz Khan, Hifzur Rahman and Zaheed Hussain, Pakistan’s > High Commissioner. Dr. Rajendra Prasad reported that even those who > had some doubts on the previous night were confident that they could > ask Gandhiji with a full sense of responsibility to break the fast. > > > > As the President of the Congress, Rajendra Prasad said that he had > signed the document in view of the guarantee which they had all > jointly and severally given. Khurshid, the Chief Commissioner and > Randhawa, Deputy Commissioner of Delhi, had signed the document on > behalf of the administration. It had been decided to set up a number > of committees to implement the pledge. Rajendra Prasad hoped that > Gandhiji would now terminate his fast. Deshbandhu Gupta described > scenes of fraternization between Hindus and Muslims which he had > witnessed when a procession of Muslims was taken out that morning in > Subzimandi and was received with ovation and offered fruit and > refreshments by the Hindu inhabitants. > > > > A seven-point declaration in Hindi was read out solemnly affirming the > people’s desire for communal harmony and civic peace: > > > > SEVEN-POINT DECLARATION OF JANUARY 18, 1948 > > “We wish to announce that it is our heart-felt desire that the Hindus, > Muslims and Sikhs and members of the other communities should once > again live in Delhi like brothers and in perfect amity and we take the > pledge that we shall protect the life, property and faith of Muslims > and that the incidents which have taken place in Delhi will not happen > again. > > > > “We want to assure Gandhiji that the annual fair at Khwaja > Qutub-ud-Din Mazar will be held this year as in the previous years. > > > > “Muslims will be able to move about in Subzimandi, Karol Bagh, > Paharganj and other localities just as they could in the past. > > > > “The mosques which have been left by Muslims and which now are in the > possession of Hindus and Sikhs will be returned. The areas which have > been set apart for Muslims will not be forcibly occupied. > > > > “We shall not object to the return to Delhi of the Muslims who have > migrated from here if they choose to come back and Muslims shall be > able to carry on their business as before. > > > > “We assure that all these things will be done by our personal effort > and not with the help of the police or military. > > > > “We request Mahatmaji to believe us and to give up his fast and > continue to lead us as he has done hitherto.” .” > > (CWMG, vol 98, p 249, 253). > > > > Gandhi’s Speech on the Delhi Declaration > > In his reply, Gandhi said: “I am happy to hear what you have told me, > but if you have overlooked one point all this will be worth nothing. > If this declaration means that you will safeguard Delhi and whatever > happens outside Delhi will be no concern of yours, you will be > committing a grave error and it will be sheer foolishness on my part > to break my fast. You must have seen the Press reports of the > happenings in Allahabad, if not, look them up. I understand that the > Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh and the Hindu Mahasabha are among the > signatories to this declaration. It will amount to breach of faith on > their part if they hold themselves responsible for peace in Delhi, but > not in other places. I have been observing that this sort of deception > is being practised in the country these days on a large scale. Delhi > is the heart - the capital of India. The leaders from the whole of > India have assembled here. Men had become beasts. > > > > But if those who have assembled here, who constitute the cream among > men cannot make the whole of India understand that Hindus, Muslims > and followers of other religions are like brothers, it bodes ill for > both the Dominions. What will be the fate of India if we continue to > quarrel with one another?... Let us take no step that may become a > cause for repentance later on. The situation demands courage of the > highest order from us. We have to consider whether or not we can > accomplish what we are going to promise. If you are not confident of > fulfilling your pledge, do not ask me to give up my fast. It is for > you and the whole of India to translate it into reality. It may not be > possible to realize it in a day. I do not possess the requisite > strength for it. But I can assure you that till today our face was > turned towards Satan, we have now resolved to turn towards God. If > what I have told you fails to find an echo in your hearts or if you > are convinced that it is beyond you, tell me so frankly. > > > > What greater folly can there be than to claim that Hindustan is only > for Hindus and Pakistan is for Muslims alone? The refugees here should > realize that things in Pakistan will be set right by the example set > in Delhi. I am not one to be afraid of fasting. Time and again I have > gone on fasts and if occasion arises I may again do so. Whatever > therefore you do, do after careful thought and consideration. The > Muslim friends frequently meet me and assure me that peaceful > atmosphere has been restored in Delhi and Hindus and Muslims can live > in amity here. If these friends have any misgivings in their hearts > and feel that today they have perforce to stay here - as they have > nowhere else to go to - but ultimately they will have to part company, > let them admit it to me frankly. > > > > To set things right in the whole of India and Pakistan is no doubt a > Herculean task. But I am an optimist. Once I resolve to do something I > refuse to accept defeat. Today you assure me that Hindus and Muslims > have become one but if Hindus continue to regard Muslims as Yavans and > asuras, incapable of realizing God, and Muslims regard Hindus > likewise, it will be the worst kind of blasphemy. A Muslim friend > presented me with a book in Patna. Its author is an eminent Muslim. > The book says: “God ordains that a kafir - and a Hindu is a kafir - is > worse than a poisonous creature. He should be exterminated. It is > one’s duty to be treacherous to him. Why should one treat him with any > courtesy?” If Muslims still harbouring such thoughts assure Hindus > about their good behaviour, they will only be deceiving Hindus. If you > betray one you betray all. If I truly worship a stone image I deceive > no one. For me God resides in that stone image. I feel that if the > hearts of both Hindus and Muslims are full of deceipt and treachery, > why need I continue to live? > > > > “..After listening to all that I have said, if you still ask me to end > my fast I shall end it. Afterwards you have to release me. I had taken > the vow to do or die in Delhi and now if I am able to achieve success > here I shall go to Pakistan and try to make Muslims understand their > folly. Whatever happens in other places, people in Delhi should > maintain peace. The refugees here should realize that they have to > welcome as brothers the Muslims returning from Pakistan to Delhi. The > Muslim refugees in Pakistan are suffering acute hardships and so are > the Hindu refugees here. Hindus have not learnt all the crafts of > Muslim craftsmen. Therefore they had better return to India. There are > good men as well as bad men in all the communities. Taking into > consideration all these implications, if you ask me to break my fast I > shall abide by your wish. India will virtually become a prison if the > present conditions continue. It may be better that you allow me to > continue my fast and if God wills it He will call me.” (CWMG Vol 98, p > 254-257) > > > > Maulana Azad said that the remarks about non-Muslims to which Gandhiji > had referred were abhorrent to Islam. They were symptoms of the > insanity that had seized some sections of the people. Maulana Hifzur > Rahman insisted that Muslims wanted to remain in India as citizens > with self-respect and honour. He welcomed the changed atmosphere in > the city as a result of Gandhi’s fast and appealed to Gandhi to break > the fast. On behalf of the Hindu Mahasabha and the R. S. S., Ganesh > Datt reiterated the appeal. > > > > Pakistan’s High Commisioner Zaheed Hussain addressed a few words to > Gandhiji. He said he was there to convey the deep concern of the > Pakistani people about him and the anxious inquiries they made every > day about his health. It was their hearts’ desire that circumstances > might soon enable him to break the fast. If there was anything that he > could do towards that end he was ready and so were the people of > Pakistan. Zaheed Hussain was followed by Khurshid and Randhawa who on > behalf of the administration reiterated the assurance that all the > conditions mentioned in the citizens’ pledge would be implemented, and > no effort would be spared to restore the Indian capital to its > traditional harmony and peace. Sardar Harbans Singh endorsed the > appeal on behalf of the Sikhs. > > > > When Rajendra Prasad said: “I have signed on behalf of the people, > please break your fast,” Gandhi replied: “I shall break my fast. Let > God’s will prevail. You all be witness today.” > > > > NB: The main source for the above extracts is the volume 98 of the > CWMG, or Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi online, at this link. > > > > Gandhi, M.K., Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi Online. > > http://www.gandhiserve.org/cwmg/cwmg.html > > > > Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi Online- Controversy regarding > alterations made by the NDA government in the collected works: > > http://www.gandhiserve.org/cwmg/cwmg_controversy.ht > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From indersalim at gmail.com Sat Oct 2 22:13:37 2010 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 22:13:37 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?Gandhi=92s_Last_Fast=3A_January_13?= =?windows-1252?q?-18=2C_1948?= In-Reply-To: <13ED7DD61C724D719D5F23B8DA8AE319@tara> References: <13ED7DD61C724D719D5F23B8DA8AE319@tara> Message-ID: I have some problems with Gandhi's handling of Desire, which actually resulted in his faulty statement regarding erotic temples of Khajuraho. I am dead sure that he was internally feeling miserable with his sexuality ( desire ). But then i think about the a very strange conflict inside each one of us. I dont know if we need to apply western style of understanding here, or remain Oriental to give benefit of doubt to him and others trapped in similar fashion. He had indeed curbed his desire for the material, but if that included sex also, then he was only revealing his ignorance about some drives which are as basic as need for food. He knew it, but he was conscious of his image as VALI ( icon/master), so he could not have uttered what Ghalib could very easily. A poet has an advantage, to laugh, to weep to mix with low and high, how can a lawyer, a believer, a poltician, and above all father of a nation laugh on a joke, But then he had the guts to mix with low and remain dignified. This i am saying outside his immense contribution to histroy and poltics of his times. He was a phenomenon indeed, and i would say he was a performance artist also, In the present, may be we need to understand the need to live simply, ManMohanics is leading towards Americanism, may be we understand sexual Desire better than Gandhi, but we are a fanatic lot and looking more greedy for the material and indifferent to the pain of other... So, talking Gandhi is not out of fashion although his dothi and danda On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 8:01 PM, TaraPrakash wrote: > Okay Inder. Thanks for this. I do wish one individual's stopping to eat > could impact people now as it did in Gandhi's time. He was a great personage > who could think beyond self interest. His main task was to build bridges > between communities. He was assassinated by a RSS fanatic and some fanatics > want to worship that murderer. > > But let us think again, was he the only murderer of Gandhi? A poet argues > that Gandhi was not actually killed in a general gathering (aam sabha) he > was rather killed in Lok Sabha. > > Gandhi badan ka naam naheen tha, usool tha > Gandhi ke har usool ko thukara diya gaya, > Gandhi ka katl aam sabha mein naheen hua > Gandhi ko katl loksabha mein kiya gaya. > > Gandhi was not name of a body, he was a school. All of his principles were > trashed. He was not murderered in a common gathering, he was murderered in > the parliament. > > What do you think Gandhi would have said about Manmohanics? > > Only if he was not that religious I would worship him more. > > Contrast with Ghalib > > Ye masail-e-tassavuf ye tera bayan Ghalib, > Tujhe ham vali samajhte > Jo na badakhwar hota. > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Inder Salim" > To: "reader-list" > Sent: Saturday, October 02, 2010 6:16 AM > Subject: [Reader-list] Gandhi’s Last Fast: January 13-18, 1948 > > >> >> http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=503970112&ref=ts#!/notes/dilip-simeon/another-time-another-mosque/438972002297 >> >> -- >> >> Text of the Delhi Declaration on communal harmony, January 18, 1948. >> >> >> >> Extracted from a recently written online lecture, 'Mahatma Gandh’s Legacy' >> >> >> >> Gandhi’s Last Fast: January 13-18, 1948 >> >> From September 1947, the communal situation in north India became >> grievous. Massacres were taking place in Punjab and Sindh, sparking >> off the migration of over ten million Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims. In >> September, hundreds of Muslims of Delhi had been killed in Karol Bagh, >> Subzi Mandi and Paharganj. Tens of thousands of Hindu and Sikh >> refugees from Punjab were crammed into Diwan Hall, Chandni Chowk and >> Kingsway Camp; while thousands of Muslims, including Meos from Alwar >> and Bharatpur, camped in fear in Jamia Millia, Puran Qila and >> Humayun’s Tomb. The life of Dr Zakir Husain, VC of Jamia Millia and >> president of the Hindustani Talimi Sangh, was saved by a Sikh army >> captain and a Hindu railway official. Upon arrival in Delhi on >> September 9, Gandhi was asked to stay not in the sweepers colony (his >> prefered residence in the city), but in Birla House. >> >> >> >> Gandhi plunged into the turmoil around him, travelling to nearby >> places, talking to refugees and cadres of social organisations. On >> December 22, he made this announcement at his prayer meeting: >> >> >> >> “Some eight or ten miles from here, at Mehrauli, there is a shrine of >> Qutubuddin Bakhtiyar Chisti. Esteemed as second only to the shrine at >> Ajmer, it is visited every year not only by Muslims but by thousands >> of non-Muslims too. Last September this shrine was subjected to the >> wrath of Hindu mobs. The Muslims living in the vicinity of the shrine >> for the last 800 years had to leave their homes. I mention this sad >> episode to tell you that, though Muslims love the shrine, today no >> Muslim can be found anywhere near it. It is the duty of the Hindus, >> Sikhs, the officials and the Government to open the shrine again and >> wash off this stain on us. The same applies to other shrines and >> religious places of Muslims in and around Delhi. The time has come >> when both India and Pakistan must unequivocally declare to the >> majorities in each country that they will not tolerate desecration of >> religious places, be they small or big. They should also undertake to >> repair the places damaged during riots.” (CWMG, vol 98, p 98-99). >> >> >> >> This was the background to his last protest. There was also the matter >> of the Government’s decision to withhold payment of Pakistan’s share >> of undivided India’s sterling balance. We may take it that the fast >> was undertaken both to restore the mosque and to convey to the public >> his feelings about ongoing events. It began on January 13, 1948 and >> was announced at his prayer meeting that evening. He said: “Now that I >> have started my fast many people cannot understand what I am doing, >> who are the offenders – Hindus or Sikhs or Muslims. How long will the >> fast last? I say I do not blame anyone. Who am I to accuse others? I >> have said that we have all sinned.” >> >> >> >> He continued: “I shall terminate the fast only when peace has returned >> to Delhi. If peace is restored to Delhi it will have effect not only >> on the whole of India but also on Pakistan and when that happens, a >> Muslim can walk around in the city all by himself. I shall then >> terminate the fast. Delhi is the capital of India. It has always been >> the capital of India. So long as things do not return to normal in >> Delhi, they will not be normal either in India or in Pakistan. Today I >> cannot bring Suhrawardy here because I fear someone may insult him. >> Today he cannot walk about in the streets of Delhi. If he did he would >> be assaulted. What I want is that he should be able to move about here >> even in the dark. It is true that he made efforts in Calcutta only >> when Muslims became involved. Still, he could have made the situation >> worse, if he had wanted, but he did not want to make things worse. He >> made the Muslims evacuate the places they had forcibly occupied and >> said that he being the Premier could do so. Although the places >> occupied by the Muslims belonged to Hindus and Sikhs he did his duty. >> Even if it takes a whole month to have real peace established in Delhi >> it does not matter. People should not do anything merely to have me >> terminate the fast. So my wish is that Hindus, Sikhs, Parsis, >> Christians and Muslims who are in India should continue to live in >> India and India should become a country where everyone’s life and >> property are safe. Only then will India progress.” >> >> >> >> The People’s Reaction >> >> Delhi was visibly affected by Gandhi’s fast. Addressing a gathering of >> three hundred thousand people on January 17, Maulana Azad announced >> seven tests given him by Gandhi to be fulfilled and guaranteed by >> responsible people. They included freedom of worship to Muslims at the >> tomb of Khwaja Bakhtiar Chishti, non-interference with the Urs >> festival due to be held there; the voluntary evacuation by non-Muslims >> of all mosques in Delhi that were being used as houses or which had >> been converted into temples; free movement of Muslims in areas where >> they used to stay; complete safety to Muslims while travelling by >> train; no economic boycott of Muslims; and freedom to Muslim evacuees >> to return to Delhi.” That evening a procession of citizens walked to >> Birla House where Jawaharlal Nehru addressed them. Gandhi’s speech was >> read out at the prayer meeting, attended by some four thousand people. >> Among other things, he said: >> >> >> >> “My fast should not be considered a political move in any sense of the >> term. It is in obedience to the peremptory call of conscience and >> duty. It comes out of felt agony. I call to witness all my numerous >> Muslim friends in Delhi. Their representatives meet me almost every >> day to report the day’s events. Neither Rajas and Maharajas nor Hindus >> and Sikhs or any others would serve themselves or India as a whole, if >> at this, what is to me a sacred juncture, they mislead me with a view >> to terminating my fast” (CWMG 98:248). >> >> >> >> On January 18, Gandhi ended his fast. Over a hundred representatives >> of various organizations including the Hindu Mahasabha, Rashtriya >> Swayamsevak Sangh and Jamiat-ul-Ulema who had assembled at Rajendra >> Prasad’s residence, called on Gandhiji at 11.30 a.m. Those present >> included Jawaharlal Nehru, Abul Kalam Azad, Rajendra Prasad, INA >> General Shah Nawaz Khan, Hifzur Rahman and Zaheed Hussain, Pakistan’s >> High Commissioner. Dr. Rajendra Prasad reported that even those who >> had some doubts on the previous night were confident that they could >> ask Gandhiji with a full sense of responsibility to break the fast. >> >> >> >> As the President of the Congress, Rajendra Prasad said that he had >> signed the document in view of the guarantee which they had all >> jointly and severally given. Khurshid, the Chief Commissioner and >> Randhawa, Deputy Commissioner of Delhi, had signed the document on >> behalf of the administration. It had been decided to set up a number >> of committees to implement the pledge. Rajendra Prasad hoped that >> Gandhiji would now terminate his fast. Deshbandhu Gupta described >> scenes of fraternization between Hindus and Muslims which he had >> witnessed when a procession of Muslims was taken out that morning in >> Subzimandi and was received with ovation and offered fruit and >> refreshments by the Hindu inhabitants. >> >> >> >> A seven-point declaration in Hindi was read out solemnly affirming the >> people’s desire for communal harmony and civic peace: >> >> >> >> SEVEN-POINT DECLARATION OF JANUARY 18, 1948 >> >> “We wish to announce that it is our heart-felt desire that the Hindus, >> Muslims and Sikhs and members of the other communities should once >> again live in Delhi like brothers and in perfect amity and we take the >> pledge that we shall protect the life, property and faith of Muslims >> and that the incidents which have taken place in Delhi will not happen >> again. >> >> >> >> “We want to assure Gandhiji that the annual fair at Khwaja >> Qutub-ud-Din Mazar will be held this year as in the previous years. >> >> >> >> “Muslims will be able to move about in Subzimandi, Karol Bagh, >> Paharganj and other localities just as they could in the past. >> >> >> >> “The mosques which have been left by Muslims and which now are in the >> possession of Hindus and Sikhs will be returned. The areas which have >> been set apart for Muslims will not be forcibly occupied. >> >> >> >> “We shall not object to the return to Delhi of the Muslims who have >> migrated from here if they choose to come back and Muslims shall be >> able to carry on their business as before. >> >> >> >> “We assure that all these things will be done by our personal effort >> and not with the help of the police or military. >> >> >> >> “We request Mahatmaji to believe us and to give up his fast and >> continue to lead us as he has done hitherto.” .” >> >> (CWMG, vol 98, p 249, 253). >> >> >> >> Gandhi’s Speech on the Delhi Declaration >> >> In his reply, Gandhi said: “I am happy to hear what you have told me, >> but if you have overlooked one point all this will be worth nothing. >> If this declaration means that you will safeguard Delhi and whatever >> happens outside Delhi will be no concern of yours, you will be >> committing a grave error and it will be sheer foolishness on my part >> to break my fast. You must have seen the Press reports of the >> happenings in Allahabad, if not, look them up. I understand that the >> Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh and the Hindu Mahasabha are among the >> signatories to this declaration. It will amount to breach of faith on >> their part if they hold themselves responsible for peace in Delhi, but >> not in other places. I have been observing that this sort of deception >> is being practised in the country these days on a large scale. Delhi >> is the heart - the capital of India. The leaders from the whole of >> India have assembled here. Men had become beasts. >> >> >> >> But if those who have assembled here, who constitute the cream among >> men cannot make the whole of India understand that Hindus, Muslims >> and followers of other religions are like brothers, it bodes ill for >> both the Dominions. What will be the fate of India if we continue to >> quarrel with one another?... Let us take no step that may become a >> cause for repentance later on. The situation demands courage of the >> highest order from us. We have to consider whether or not we can >> accomplish what we are going to promise. If you are not confident of >> fulfilling your pledge, do not ask me to give up my fast. It is for >> you and the whole of India to translate it into reality. It may not be >> possible to realize it in a day. I do not possess the requisite >> strength for it. But I can assure you that till today our face was >> turned towards Satan, we have now resolved to turn towards God. If >> what I have told you fails to find an echo in your hearts or if you >> are convinced that it is beyond you, tell me so frankly. >> >> >> >> What greater folly can there be than to claim that Hindustan is only >> for Hindus and Pakistan is for Muslims alone? The refugees here should >> realize that things in Pakistan will be set right by the example set >> in Delhi. I am not one to be afraid of fasting. Time and again I have >> gone on fasts and if occasion arises I may again do so. Whatever >> therefore you do, do after careful thought and consideration. The >> Muslim friends frequently meet me and assure me that peaceful >> atmosphere has been restored in Delhi and Hindus and Muslims can live >> in amity here. If these friends have any misgivings in their hearts >> and feel that today they have perforce to stay here - as they have >> nowhere else to go to - but ultimately they will have to part company, >> let them admit it to me frankly. >> >> >> >> To set things right in the whole of India and Pakistan is no doubt a >> Herculean task. But I am an optimist. Once I resolve to do something I >> refuse to accept defeat. Today you assure me that Hindus and Muslims >> have become one but if Hindus continue to regard Muslims as Yavans and >> asuras, incapable of realizing God, and Muslims regard Hindus >> likewise, it will be the worst kind of blasphemy. A Muslim friend >> presented me with a book in Patna. Its author is an eminent Muslim. >> The book says: “God ordains that a kafir - and a Hindu is a kafir - is >> worse than a poisonous creature. He should be exterminated. It is >> one’s duty to be treacherous to him. Why should one treat him with any >> courtesy?” If Muslims still harbouring such thoughts assure Hindus >> about their good behaviour, they will only be deceiving Hindus. If you >> betray one you betray all. If I truly worship a stone image I deceive >> no one. For me God resides in that stone image. I feel that if the >> hearts of both Hindus and Muslims are full of deceipt and treachery, >> why need I continue to live? >> >> >> >> “..After listening to all that I have said, if you still ask me to end >> my fast I shall end it. Afterwards you have to release me. I had taken >> the vow to do or die in Delhi and now if I am able to achieve success >> here I shall go to Pakistan and try to make Muslims understand their >> folly. Whatever happens in other places, people in Delhi should >> maintain peace. The refugees here should realize that they have to >> welcome as brothers the Muslims returning from Pakistan to Delhi. The >> Muslim refugees in Pakistan are suffering acute hardships and so are >> the Hindu refugees here. Hindus have not learnt all the crafts of >> Muslim craftsmen. Therefore they had better return to India. There are >> good men as well as bad men in all the communities. Taking into >> consideration all these implications, if you ask me to break my fast I >> shall abide by your wish. India will virtually become a prison if the >> present conditions continue. It may be better that you allow me to >> continue my fast and if God wills it He will call me.” (CWMG Vol 98, p >> 254-257) >> >> >> >> Maulana Azad said that the remarks about non-Muslims to which Gandhiji >> had referred were abhorrent to Islam. They were symptoms of the >> insanity that had seized some sections of the people. Maulana Hifzur >> Rahman insisted that Muslims wanted to remain in India as citizens >> with self-respect and honour. He welcomed the changed atmosphere in >> the city as a result of Gandhi’s fast and appealed to Gandhi to break >> the fast. On behalf of the Hindu Mahasabha and the R. S. S., Ganesh >> Datt reiterated the appeal. >> >> >> >> Pakistan’s High Commisioner Zaheed Hussain addressed a few words to >> Gandhiji. He said he was there to convey the deep concern of the >> Pakistani people about him and the anxious inquiries they made every >> day about his health. It was their hearts’ desire that circumstances >> might soon enable him to break the fast. If there was anything that he >> could do towards that end he was ready and so were the people of >> Pakistan. Zaheed Hussain was followed by Khurshid and Randhawa who on >> behalf of the administration reiterated the assurance that all the >> conditions mentioned in the citizens’ pledge would be implemented, and >> no effort would be spared to restore the Indian capital to its >> traditional harmony and peace. Sardar Harbans Singh endorsed the >> appeal on behalf of the Sikhs. >> >> >> >> When Rajendra Prasad said: “I have signed on behalf of the people, >> please break your fast,” Gandhi replied: “I shall break my fast. Let >> God’s will prevail. You all be witness today.” >> >> >> >> NB: The main source for the above extracts is the volume 98 of the >> CWMG, or Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi online, at this link. >> >> >> >> Gandhi, M.K., Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi Online. >> >> http://www.gandhiserve.org/cwmg/cwmg.html >> >> >> >> Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi Online- Controversy regarding >> alterations made by the NDA government in the collected works: >> >> http://www.gandhiserve.org/cwmg/cwmg_controversy.ht >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sat Oct 2 23:32:22 2010 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 23:32:22 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Shias offer donation to build Ram temple at Ayodhya Message-ID: *Shias offer donation to build Ram temple* Lucknow, Oct 2 Link - http://www.deccanherald.com/content/101494/shias-offer-donation-build-ram.html *A Shia Muslim outfit in the state capital has offered to donate money for the construction of a Ram temple at the disputed site in Ayodhya and appealed to the Muslim litigants not to move the Supreme Court to challenge the verdict of the Lucknow Bench of the Allahabad High Court.* Shia Hussaini Tigers, an organisation of the Shia youth having a sizeable following among the Shias in the country, said it was ready to provide Rs 15 lakh for taking up the construction of the Ram temple in Ayodhya. Organisation President Shamil Shamsi said here on Saturday that he would soon meet the representatives of the Sunni Central Waqf Board, one of the main plaintiffs in the dispute, and try to persuade them not to pursue the matter any further. Shamsi lashed out at Samajwadi Party supremo Mulayam Singh Yadav for his statement on the High Court verdict saying such remarks would only vitiate the atmosphere. Mulayam on Friday criticised the judgment and said the Muslims felt cheated by the verdict. He said the verdict was based on faith and belief rather than on hard facts and evidence. “It is really shameful that some politicians and leaders are trying to gain mileage out of the court verdict,” he said. Shamsi also slammed those Muslim leaders who were criticising the verdict and urged them to respect the court order, which, he said had paved the way for both a temple and a mosque. *End the legal fight* The young leader also said he was planning to lead a delegation to meet the senior members of the All India Muslim Personal Law Board, an apex body of the Muslims in the country, to urge them to end the legal fight. Incidentally, Shamsi’s uncle and well-known Shia cleric Maulana Kalbe Saadiq is a senior vice-president of the AIMPLB. Maulana Saadiq commands a huge following among the Shias in the country. Shamsi urged the Muslims to lend a helping hand in the construction of the temple to set an example in communal harmony. “Such an act will go a long way in promoting communal peace and harmony in the country,” he said. -- Aditya Raj Kaul India Editor The Indian, Australia Web: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ From indersalim at gmail.com Sun Oct 3 13:20:29 2010 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 13:20:29 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Ayodhya Verdict: A historians view point Message-ID: ROMILA THAPAR: We cannot change the past to justify the politics of the present. The verdict is a political judgment and reflects a decision which could as well have been taken by the state years ago. Its focus is on the possession of land and the building a new temple to replace the destroyed mosque. The problem was entangled in contemporary politics involving religious identities but also claimed to be based on historical evidence. This latter aspect has been invoked but subsequently set aside in the judgment. The court has declared that a particular spot is where a divine or semi-divine person was born and where a new temple is to be built to commemorate the birth. This is in response to an appeal by Hindu faith and belief. Given the absence of evidence in support of the claim, such a verdict is not what one expects from a court of law. Hindus deeply revere Rama as a deity but can this support a legal decision on claims to a birth-place, possession of land and the deliberate destruction of a major historical monument to assist in acquiring the land? The verdict claims that there was a temple of the 12th Century AD at the site which was destroyed to build the mosque — hence the legitimacy of building a new temple. The excavations of the Archaeological Survey of India (ASI) and its readings have been fully accepted even though these have been strongly disputed by other archaeologists and historians. Since this is a matter of professional expertise on which there was a sharp difference of opinion the categorical acceptance of the one point of view, and that too in a simplistic manner, does little to build confidence in the verdict. One judge stated that he did not delve into the historical aspect since he was not a historian but went to say that history and archaeology were not absolutely essential to decide these suits! Yet what are at issue are the historicity of the claims and the historical structures of the past one millennium. A mosque built almost 500 years ago and which was part of our cultural heritage was destroyed wilfully by a mob urged on by a political leadership. There is no mention in the summary of the verdict that this act of wanton destruction, and a crime against our heritage, should be condemned. The new temple will have its sanctum — the presumed birthplace of Rama — in the area of the debris of the mosque. Whereas the destruction of the supposed temple is condemned and becomes the justification for building a new temple, the destruction of the mosque is not, perhaps by placing it conveniently outside the purview of the case. Has created a precedent The verdict has created a precedent in the court of law that land can be claimed by declaring it to be the birthplace of a divine or semi-divine being worshipped by a group that defines itself as a community. There will now be many such janmasthans wherever appropriate property can be found or a required dispute manufactured. Since the deliberate destruction of historical monuments has not been condemned what is to stop people from continuing to destroy others? The legislation of 1993 against changing the status of places of worship has been, as we have seen in recent years, quite ineffective. What happened in history, happened. It cannot be changed. But we can learn to understand what happened in its fuller context and strive to look at it on the basis of reliable evidence. We cannot change the past to justify the politics of the present. The verdict has annulled respect for history and seeks to replace history with religious faith. True reconciliation can only come when there is confidence that the law in this country bases itself not just on faith and belief, but on evidence. ( Romila Thapar is a distinguished historian of Early India.) -- From nagraj.adve at gmail.com Sun Oct 3 22:41:57 2010 From: nagraj.adve at gmail.com (Nagraj Adve) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 22:41:57 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] PUDR statement on Ayodhya judgement Message-ID: PEOPLE’S UNION FOR DEMOCRATIC RIGHTS 2 October 2010 PUDR is deeply disturbed by the underlying basis for the majority view of the three-judge bench in the Ayodhya case. One of the three judges held that the part of the disputed area is the “place of birth of Lord Ram as per faith and belief of the Hindus” (Justice Agarwal, para 4566[i]). Another held that “The disputed site is the birthplace of Lord Ram … Hindus have been worshipping the place … and visiting as a sacred place of pilgrimage since time immemorial”. (Justice Dharam Veer Sharma, Issues for Briefing, Nos. 1, 6). We are concerned that key parts of the judgement and the consequent division of the disputed area are based not on historical fact or undisputed archaeological enquiry, but on an interpretation of faith. The issue is not only that the extent or intensity of faith is difficult to define or determine. The key issue is that faith, whether majoritarian or minority faith, cannot be the basis of an enlightened jurisprudence in a modern democratic polity. By endorsing faith as the basis for the pronouncement, this judgement is deeply regressive, even communal. It is an implicit endorsement of a majoritarian politics that we deeply abhor, and which people’s movements have fought against for years. By foregrounding faith, it sets a dangerous precedent whose implications we cannot even anticipate and which we may suffer in the future. We, like innumerable people in this country, welcome the fact that this order has been received with circumspection and not immediately resulted in senseless conflict. The key issue, however, is whether justice has been served by this judgement. PUDR believes it has not. Moushumi Basu, Asish Gupta Secretaries, PUDR From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Mon Oct 4 19:58:09 2010 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 19:58:09 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Reporting in Kashmir is one-sided Message-ID: *Reporting in Kashmir is one-sided * *SPECIAL REPORT* *INTERVIEW/*G.K. PILLAI, UNION HOME SECRETARY *By Mandira Nayar* *The internet is teeming with virulent anti-India blogs. With the angry youth congregating on social network forums like Facebook, have the protests moved from the streets to the cyberworld?* ** It is a cause for concern. Though we spend 010,000 crore a year [on Kashmir], you have not been able to win hearts and minds. It is not just development. There are roads; the rail link is coming. [But] we have not been able to reach out to people much. [The reasons are] tied up to Partition, Pakistan, the Islamist agenda and the dragging out of Pandits. All these have contributed to a feeling of alienation. In the last few months, the anger has been substantial. Kashmiris feel hurt and humiliated because of checking [on the roads]. A man has to go through checking thrice between home and office. They could have done without many of them. Maybe we have not been able to reach out to people; [we have been] reaching out to the government. There is a subtle difference. *Is the stuff coming out on the internet a cause for worry?* ** We are monitoring it. People like Masarat and Asiya Andrabi [gather] groups of people around [the aggrieved people] to keep a sense of anger and [express] grievances. At the same time there are Kashmiri students who asked me, why haven’t you cracked down on those who are creating the problems. They are the silent majority. There has been stone throwing on their houses, too. *But there has been a radicalisation of youth of late.* ** This is a trend. There are a number of madrasas and mosques where teachers from [faraway] Uttar Pradesh and other places work. Radicalisation is the result of a worldwide phenomenon. It is there all across the ?country. *There is a growing sympathy for the stone-thrower. Is it not a dangerous trend?* ** Who is the stone-pelter? I have hundreds of CRPF men in hospitals with broken bones or missing eyes. This is never reported. Reporting in Kashmir is one-sided. No one exposes such things, and if you do you will be literally wiped out. Yes, you have to reach out. [But] overall, terrorism has come down. We could take the Army out of some populated areas and reduce the Central paramilitary forces... and strengthen the Jammu and Kashmir police by several thousands which can manage the urban areas. This will also help in creating employment. There has been no problem in Ladakh or Jammu. It is basically in Srinagar, Shopian, Anantnag and Sopore. These places are in the news, and it looks like the whole of Kashmir is burning. In rural areas people are going by their daily routine. I have faith that there will be a substantial political move and a move forward in Kashmir. We have had the best Amarnath yatra. Tourism has grown 85 per cent over the last year. When things start getting good, they [terrorists] will create problems. If the houseboats are full and the taxis are plying and people are making a lot of money, no one will want jihad. From peerzadaarshad at yahoo.com Mon Oct 4 20:26:03 2010 From: peerzadaarshad at yahoo.com (peerzada arshad) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 20:26:03 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Politics of the package Message-ID: <920858.74135.qm@web94708.mail.in2.yahoo.com> http://www.kashmirnewz.com/a0029.html   Politics of the package Peerzada Arshad Hamid There is a buzz about the recently announced New Delhi’s eight-point initiative to address Kashmir’s ongoing unrest. The political initiative, as New Delhi prefers to call it, was announced following all party delegation of Indian parliamentarians to the troubled state. Before going into discussions over whether the initiative in its totality is truly aimed at easing the tensions or just another process that would achieve nothing other than consuming time, let us underline what the plan offers?   To be precise enough the initiative says New Delhi will appoint a group of interlocutors to talk to various social and political groups of the state. It called on state government to release the jailed protesters, reviewing cases of detenues booked under the Public Safety Act (PSA), review the Disturbed Areas notification and deployment of security forces. It asked for reopening of educational institutions. It also announced a financial compensation of Rs five lakh for every person killed in civil unrest since June this year and an additional assistance of Rs 100 crore for improving infrastructure in educational institutions of the state.   The announcement is presumed to bring down the tempers that are raking up over the past three months and have seen 109 people mostly teenagers and young men killed in police and paramilitary action on protesters that feel alienated with New Delhi.   Anti-India sentiment runs deep in the psyche of majority of Kashmiris because of the repeated apathy at the hands of New Delhi.   Protests seeking end of New Delhi’s rule are going on relentlessly across Muslim majority areas of state. The efforts by government forces to stop such protests often trigger clashes with youth pelting stones and police and paramilitary troopers retaliating by firing tear smoke shells and bullets.   Police action either results in deaths or wounding of civilians. The state policy has been to use force to quell dissent especially since the inception of armed insurgency in the state.   Unfortunately state government as well as centre has not been able to come up with a strategy other than running affairs through the barrel of gun.   The gulf that is widening between the people and state government, which represents Indian Union is widening with each passing day. The confrontation has rendered Chief Minister Omar Abdullah and his coalition government ineffective and gave separatists the upper hand.   Mere rhetoric and blame games won’t work. The government has to accept the aberration in the system that triggers protests relentlessly.   During the initial phase when death toll rose to 17, government ordered an inquiry promising action against the accused, the report is yet to be submitted. By now the death toll surpassed 100 besides wounding hundreds. So where stands the elected government’s promise?   Apart from this, strikes called by separatists and strict curfew imposed by authorities have paralyzed the life. The closure of markets, business establishments, educational institutions, government offices has suffered losses, some of which are tangible and some intangible.   According to estimates by economic experts, in the past 100 days, the valley alone has lost Rs 8000 crore for in wake of the cessation of service mobility, movement and businesses.   The loss to the student community cannot be quantified.   There is no denying the fact that Kashmir is a political problem and needs a political solution. Whosoever, tries to find solution to this imbroglio outside the political frame has not understood the issue and needs the fresh orientation on the subject. In the given situation where does the eight point initiative stand?   In fact, things in Kashmir look more hopeless than ever in the past three months. In the past there have been efforts by New Delhi as well as separatist groups to get engaged in talks to find a suitable way out but every time the moves ended in futility, for they were half-hearted.   Flicking the pages of history we come across central team meeting Hizbul Mujahideen leaders in 2000. Moderate faction of Hurriyat Conference during the tenure of governments headed by Atal Behari Vajpayee and Manmohan Singh entered into talks with New Delhi.   The talks failed to break ice and dialogue process could not pick up.   Besides this the renewed offer instead of being an exclusive one appears to be more generalized in nature.   So, who will be central government approaching right now for talks and what will be the agenda?   Separatists are demanding specific and absolute political concessions. Is government in New Delhi ready to give that?   As far as issue of Armed Forces Special Powers Act (AFSPA) and curtailing security is concerned again New Delhi has contradiction. AFSA gives stationed troops the legal authority to shoot any person on mere suspicion of being a threat, and guarantees immunity from prosecution. It also provides a soldier a cover from being tried in a civilian court, for a civilian court requires the permission of home ministry in such a matter. Rights activists say more than 400 such cases are still waiting the home ministry sanction. If on one hand government says militancy has come down drastically over the past one decade and number of militants operating in the state is less than 500, then they should equally reciprocate with meaningful gestures.   Why not curtailing the number of troops and withdrawing the special powers to the soldiers? After all after two decades of militancy, the people in the state want a change in the scenario.   Jammu and Kashmir is considered as one of the highest militarized regions in the world. Officially India does not reveal the actual number of its troops deployed in Kashmir. Rights groups say that India has deployed more than 700,000 troopers and paramilitary troopers in the region to counter militants fighting in the region. The troops are often being accused of indulging in human rights violations.   Separatists in the region have been consistently demanding the withdrawal of troops and scrapping of their special powers and have even made it a pre-condition for entering into formal talks with New Delhi. So why not acting on this before engaging into a fruitful process?   Prior to this the much talked about working groups on Kashmir nominated by Prime Minister submitted their reports, why is New Delhi taking time in considering even those recommendations.   The groups were nominated in May 2006 to find a permanent solution to the conflict in the state. One of the committees headed by former Supreme Court judge Saghir Ahmad recommended autonomy for the state.   The demand of autonomy in the region is being advocated by the pro-Indian ruling party of the region National Conference. The party has passed autonomy resolution in the state legislature in 2000, which was turned down by New Delhi.   Why pushing for fresh committees to hold dialogue process to find a solution and not start implementing the recommendations of working groups? Reviewing cases of detainees booked under PSA and compensation to kin of deceased, the steps are not the answer to the problem instead an obligation of the responsible government to its people.   The people’s backlash that was manifested by setting ablaze anything that represents government (offices, police stations, railway sheds, etc) is highly condemnable and cannot be justified. But at the same time state cannot afford to be at war with its own people.   Tailpiece New Delhi has to politically equip the people, no matter mainstream leaders or the separatists. After all the people should realize that there are people listening to their demands. So if the agenda has failed to deliver on the political front, then it is simply undoing of the eight-point- initiative. peerzada at kashmirnewz.com From indersalim at gmail.com Mon Oct 4 20:30:11 2010 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 20:30:11 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] crackdown backfires in Shopian Kashmir Message-ID: http://www.kashmirobserver.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=5869:crackdown-backfires-in-shopian-curfew-in-sgr-varmul&catid=15:top-news&Itemid=2 Srinagar, Oct 03, KONS: Two persons were seriously injured in firing on protestors during an army crackdown in a Shopian village on Sunday amid a curfew clamped by the government in Srinagar and several towns to foil the Hurriyat (G)’s call for a march to Baramulla. An army crackdown in the Nagbal, Imam Sahib area of Shopian backfired badly this morning, with troopers having to open fire in a futile bid to quell snowballing protests. The firing by the army left two persons, identified as 19-year-old Umar Ahmad Dar and 18-year-old Saleema, seriously injured, triggered off a fresh wave of violent protests that spilled over into the centre of the town. Protests against the army were reported to have erupted when troopers cordoned off the area in the morning, asking locals to assemble in the open. The protests became stronger when the soldiers caught hold of a student, Tauseef Ahmad, and gave him a severe beating. Unable to control the intensifying demonstration, the soldiers opened fire, leading to the casualties, who have been referred to Srinagar for treatment. The police said that the army had moved into the village on receiving reports of militant presence, and had come under a stone-pelting attack from some slogan-shouting youth when it began its search operation. It said that the army had opened fire to control the situation, and the two persons injured in the incident were out of danger in hospital. The protests over the firing spilled over with a large number of local taking to the streets, and groups of enraged youth attacking the deputy commissioner’s office with stones. Clashes between the protestors and the forces were on till late in the afternoon. Meanwhile, a strict curfew had been imposed in the Baramulla and Sopore towns in view of the Hurriyat (G) call, and authorities had made late night announcements informing residents of the restrictions. Large contingents of the police and the paramilitary forces had been deployed in the towns overnight, and trouble-prone areas sealed off. But clashes broke out near the Dewan Bagh area of Baramulla after groups of youth emerged in the streets pelting stones on the forces who retaliated with cane charges. Curfew and shutdown paralysed life in Bandipur and Budgam towns also. No curfew had been imposed in the south Kashmir towns of Islamabad, Pulwama,Bijbehara, Kulgam, Pampore, Achabal and other areas, but life the region observed a complete shutdown on the call of the Hurriyat (G). From a.mani.cms at gmail.com Tue Oct 5 05:58:12 2010 From: a.mani.cms at gmail.com (A. Mani) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 05:58:12 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] On Quality of ASI work Message-ID: interesting: http://www.countercurrents.org/khalidi021010.htm Best A. Mani -- A. Mani ASL, CLC,  AMS, CMS http://www.logicamani.co.cc From peter.ksmtf at gmail.com Tue Oct 5 10:30:48 2010 From: peter.ksmtf at gmail.com (T Peter) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 10:30:48 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fish workers to raise issues during campaign In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Fish workers to raise issues during campaign http://www.thehindu.com/2010/10/05/stories/2010100556950300.htm Special Correspondent Kozhikode: The National Fish Workers' Forum (NFWF) and the Kerala Swatantra Matsya Thozhilali Federation have decided to highlight the ‘lack of fund allotment to the fisheries sector' during the forthcoming campaign for elections to local bodies. Federation State president T. Peter and general secretary P.P. John said at a press conference here on Monday that they would campaign for funds, through the local bodies, to ensure better living conditions for fish workers. The organisations will go ahead with their proposed agitation against the Central government notification on the use of coastal zones issued on September 15. The notification does not permit fishermen to construct houses within 200 metres of the coastal boundary but it gives ‘unlimited access to the tourists,' they said. “What is needed is a comprehensive law that would protect the interests of the community,” they said. The federation would submit a memorandum to the Prime Minister, UPA chairperson Sonia Gandhi and leaders of major political parties on October 15. http://www.keralafishworkers.in http://www.alakal.net From yasir.media at gmail.com Tue Oct 5 11:46:03 2010 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?IHlhc2lyIH7ZitinINiz2LE=?=) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 11:16:03 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: *Good News* in Pakistan (TV Channel) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2 October 2010 ** Good News from Pakistan The story of an unlikely Christian channel in Pakistan. If going on air was difficult, staying on air is something of a miracle. http://openthemagazine.com/article/international/good-news-from-pakistan From iram at sarai.net Tue Oct 5 12:02:41 2010 From: iram at sarai.net (Iram Ghufran) Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2010 12:32:41 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] fwd: workshop on "Sufi Literature and Social Resposibility" Message-ID: <4CAAC689.808@sarai.net> Subject: workshop on "Sufi Literature and Social Resposibility" From: ektara Ektara India cordially invites you to a 2-days Workshop on Sufi Literature and Social Resposibility at New Delhi, on November 13-14, 2010 (Sat/Sunday) and additionally on Nov. 20-21, 2010 With a heritage walk on 25th Nov. The seats are limited and the registration is open. As listening to Sufi music and qawwali becomes more and more trendy, there are debates about what the true Sufi music is. Is it some meditative chanting that provides peace and tranquillity to an individual in today’s stressful urban life? Is it supposed to involve a lot of rhythm and high octave vocals using the names of god or Ali, as often exhibited by contemporary Indian cinema or pop music groups? Or is there something more... to Sufi music and literature than mere self-indulgence? Does it have a social relevance in today’s life? Could it help us connect to our pluralistic past? Could it help us learn ways to coexist in today’s multicultural society? These are some of the questions that we hope to address in a two-day intensive workshop involving several scholars, music practitioners and media professionals who have been working on these themes. Some of these include Madan Gopal Singh, Atmaram, Dhruv Sangari and others. Ektara India has been successfully conducting such workshops for last couple of years, the details of which can be seen on our website (www.ektara.org). The workshops are open for all who have an interest in Sufi poetry, music and Qawwali. The participants do not have to have a prior knowledge or training of music, nor is there an age-bar. Kindly note that this is not a course for learning music, but for appreciating music, poetry and their social contexts. The two day workshop will be repeated on 20th and 21st November as well. Thus you can select the dates that suit you best. Most presentations will be given in English with some Urdu/Hindi content. Although two days are insufficient for a comprehensive understanding of such a subject, it is hoped that by the end of the workshop, the participants would be able to better appreciate the nuances of Sufi music, poetry, and Qawwali and its historical context. The two days will comprise of full day sessions (10 am to 6 pm) of lectures, discussions, some singing and recitation of poetry, screening of documentary films and archival sound recordings. Detailed schedule of the 2-days will be available in early-October 2010. An additional heritage walk to a Sufi shrine with live traditional music will take place on the 25th November 2010 in the evening. Lunches, tea/coffee and refreshments will be provided. Hand-outs including reading material and audio/video clips (on a CD) will also be provided. Ektara India would also present a certificate of participation to each participant. Registration: The seats are limited and a prior registration is required. Registration fee (inclusive of lunch/tea/handouts etc.): Rs.2500/- per participant (Indian Rupees two thousand five hundred only), with a 20% discount for early bird applicants, students and couples/groups. Deadline for receiving the application for early bird and student discount is 10th October 2010. Couples or groups can avail the discount until the start of the workshop (subject to the availability of seats). The students seeking a discount should not be working as professionals. To register, kindly download the application form (link below), print, fill and send it to us with the registration fee. You can either send the full amount or at least Rs.1000 in advance to ensure registration (the remainder can be paid by cash or cheque at the venue of the workshop). http://ektaramusic.com/smw-appform-nov10.doc http://ektaramusic.com/smw-appform-nov10.pdf Ektara team www.ektara.org We are also on facebook: http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=114779248580249 (Kindly forward this message to others who might be interested) From a.mani.cms at gmail.com Tue Oct 5 16:46:47 2010 From: a.mani.cms at gmail.com (A. Mani) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 16:46:47 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmiri-intifada Message-ID: See http://www.marxist.com/kashmiri-intifada.htm The site is of course completely Trotskyist, but the article should be of some interest. Excerpt "Time and again the masses of Kashmir, and specially the youth, have been crushed by state repression but the movement keeps on erupting. However, the present movement is in the hands of a different and a new generation (which was raised in the violent period) and instead of emotional slogans and metaphysical ideologies it is based on the firm realities of deprivation with clear economic and social demands. The rulers of India cannot therefore label it as being sponsored by Pakistan or Islamic fundamentalism. ......... The character of the movement shows that there is growing radicalisation in Kashmiri society and particularly among the youth, and the distrust in religious and so called nationalist parties is proof that this radicalisation is clearly going towards the left. The CPI(M) which has some basis in Kashmir if not vast support, but it needs to provide a clear programme of revolutionary socialism that would inevitably connect with the aspirations of this movement and transform the whole dimension of the conflict in Kashmir on both sides of the ‘line of control’. If the central leadership of CPI(M) instead of following the policy of bourgeois Indian nationalism and the so-called “national democratic revolution” based on the two-stage theory, were to adopt a clear Leninist class policy on the national question by providing solutions to all the problems, including that of national liberation, linked to a socialist revolution and unite the struggle in Kashmir with the class struggle of the Indian proletariat, the state would face a formidable challenge that it would not be able to confront and would be forced to withdraw its armed forces and end these brutalities. Such a victory would open up the floodgates of a revolutionary upheaval throughout the South Asian subcontinent. The compromising policies of the left parties’ central leadership have crippled the CPIM in Kashmir and it has thus failed to gain the support among the youth which it could easily have won. .............. This will also have a revolutionary impact in Pakistani Occupied Kashmir where the Marxist forces are already growing and gaining popular support. The JKNSF has gained a mass basis amongst the youth on a revolutionary programme and with the slogan, “Freedom is our aim, Socialism is our destiny”. However, a socialist revolution in Kashmir cannot remain confined to its borders; in fact it is very difficult to carry out a socialist revolution within Kashmir alone without the class solidarity and active participation of the working masses of Pakistan and India and even if a revolution were to be victorious it could not be sustained for long the capitalist imperialist states of India and Pakistan remain intact. But the situation is changing not only in Kashmir; there are new revolutionary storms that impend across the horizon, across the whole of the subcontinent. The conditions for social upheaval and militant class struggle are being created everywhere." Best A. Mani -- A. Mani ASL, CLC,  AMS, CMS http://www.logicamani.co.cc From indersalim at gmail.com Tue Oct 5 20:23:54 2010 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 20:23:54 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmiri-intifada In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks dear A Mani It is always very wonderful to read a new perspective concerning K Issue. which in fact is extending K boarder and beyond.... Here the term like Marxist might open new vistas of different terminology to connect itself with others to bridge the growing new robust youth who are already looking different with new avenues to express change of status quo. Thereby softening the crest of the terms .... It is JP Sartre warns about how we owe our expression to the sumptuousness of terms and phrases and terms. so,.... It is really heartening that POK has a visible base of such a wave which can sabotage the USA deep state politics in our region. The US aversion of terms like communist has a history of its own which has created right wing demon, and it looks it is a matter of time before these demons realize the benefits of new understanding the universal ( change ) rather than remain confined to religious bigotry and fantasy, which only provides an alibi to US and allies to strike at will, and keep us fighting each other. Time should come soon when we refuse to buy their arms to kill our people.. Azadi in Kashmir needs a broader conceptual frame to sustain the dialogue of Freedom.. The are many terms in vogue at the moment in Kashmir which can radically change to more universal terms like Pro-Freedom Movement, People for Change, Boarder Riders etc. which can attract more and more free minds from both sides of the boarder and beyond. the change is inevitable, may be it is too soon to see a big wave picking up the entire region. I am optimistic, with love is On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 4:46 PM, A. Mani wrote: > See http://www.marxist.com/kashmiri-intifada.htm > > > The site is of course completely Trotskyist, but the article should be > of some interest. > > Excerpt > "Time and again the masses of Kashmir, and specially the youth, have > been crushed by state repression but the movement keeps on erupting. > However, the present movement is in the hands of a different and a new > generation (which was raised in the violent period) and instead of > emotional slogans and metaphysical ideologies it is based on the firm > realities of deprivation with clear economic and social demands. The > rulers of India cannot therefore label it as being sponsored by > Pakistan or Islamic fundamentalism. > ......... > > The character of the movement shows that there is growing > radicalisation in Kashmiri society and particularly among the youth, > and the distrust in religious and so called nationalist parties is > proof that this radicalisation is clearly going towards the left. The > CPI(M) which has some basis in Kashmir if not vast support, but it > needs to provide a clear programme of revolutionary socialism that > would inevitably connect with the aspirations of this movement and > transform the whole dimension of the conflict in Kashmir on both sides > of the ‘line of control’. If the central leadership of CPI(M) instead > of following the policy of bourgeois Indian nationalism and the > so-called “national democratic revolution” based on the two-stage > theory, were to adopt a clear Leninist class policy on the national > question by providing solutions to all the problems, including that of > national liberation, linked to a socialist revolution and unite the > struggle in Kashmir with the class struggle of the Indian proletariat, > the state would face a formidable challenge that it would not be able > to confront and would be forced to withdraw its armed forces and end > these brutalities. Such a victory would open up the floodgates of a > revolutionary upheaval throughout the South Asian subcontinent. The > compromising policies of the left parties’ central leadership have > crippled the CPIM in Kashmir and it has thus failed to gain the > support among the youth which it could easily have won. > > .............. > > This will also have a revolutionary impact in Pakistani Occupied > Kashmir where the Marxist forces are already growing and gaining > popular support. The JKNSF has gained a mass basis amongst the youth > on a revolutionary programme and with the slogan, “Freedom is our aim, > Socialism is our destiny”. > > > However, a socialist revolution in Kashmir cannot remain confined to > its borders; in fact it is very difficult to carry out a socialist > revolution within Kashmir alone without the class solidarity and > active participation of the working masses of Pakistan and India and > even if a revolution were to be victorious it could not be sustained > for long the capitalist imperialist states of India and Pakistan > remain intact. But the situation is changing not only in Kashmir; > there are new revolutionary storms that impend across the horizon, > across the whole of the subcontinent. The conditions for social > upheaval and militant class struggle are being created everywhere." > > > > > > Best > > A. Mani > > > > > > -- > A. Mani > ASL, CLC,  AMS, CMS > http://www.logicamani.co.cc > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From pheeta.ram at gmail.com Wed Oct 6 03:21:31 2010 From: pheeta.ram at gmail.com (Pheeta Ram) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 03:21:31 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmiri-intifada In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Inder bhai! Zyada zor lagaane ki zaroorat nahin! Hum sehmat hain! "Azadi in Kashmir needs a broader conceptual frame to sustain the dialogue of Freedom.." On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 8:23 PM, Inder Salim wrote: > Thanks dear A Mani > > It is always very wonderful to read a new perspective concerning K Issue. > which in fact is extending K boarder and beyond.... Here the term > like Marxist might open new vistas of different terminology to connect > itself with others to bridge the growing new robust youth who are > already looking different with new avenues to express change of status > quo. Thereby softening the crest of the terms .... It is JP Sartre > warns about how we owe our expression to the sumptuousness of terms > and phrases and terms. so,.... > > It is really heartening that POK has a visible base of such a wave > which can sabotage the USA deep state politics in our region. The US > aversion of terms like communist has a history of its own which has > created right wing demon, and it looks it is a matter of time before > these demons realize the benefits of new understanding the universal ( > change ) rather than remain confined to religious bigotry and > fantasy, which only provides an alibi to US and allies to strike at > will, and keep us fighting each other. Time should come soon when we > refuse to buy their arms to kill our people.. > > > The are many terms in vogue at the moment in Kashmir which can > radically change to more universal terms like Pro-Freedom Movement, > People for Change, Boarder Riders etc. which can attract more and more > free minds from both sides of the boarder and beyond. > > the change is inevitable, may be it is too soon to see a big wave > picking up the entire region. I am optimistic, > > with love > > is > > On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 4:46 PM, A. Mani wrote: > > See http://www.marxist.com/kashmiri-intifada.htm > > > > > > The site is of course completely Trotskyist, but the article should be > > of some interest. > > > > Excerpt > > "Time and again the masses of Kashmir, and specially the youth, have > > been crushed by state repression but the movement keeps on erupting. > > However, the present movement is in the hands of a different and a new > > generation (which was raised in the violent period) and instead of > > emotional slogans and metaphysical ideologies it is based on the firm > > realities of deprivation with clear economic and social demands. The > > rulers of India cannot therefore label it as being sponsored by > > Pakistan or Islamic fundamentalism. > > ......... > > > > The character of the movement shows that there is growing > > radicalisation in Kashmiri society and particularly among the youth, > > and the distrust in religious and so called nationalist parties is > > proof that this radicalisation is clearly going towards the left. The > > CPI(M) which has some basis in Kashmir if not vast support, but it > > needs to provide a clear programme of revolutionary socialism that > > would inevitably connect with the aspirations of this movement and > > transform the whole dimension of the conflict in Kashmir on both sides > > of the ‘line of control’. If the central leadership of CPI(M) instead > > of following the policy of bourgeois Indian nationalism and the > > so-called “national democratic revolution” based on the two-stage > > theory, were to adopt a clear Leninist class policy on the national > > question by providing solutions to all the problems, including that of > > national liberation, linked to a socialist revolution and unite the > > struggle in Kashmir with the class struggle of the Indian proletariat, > > the state would face a formidable challenge that it would not be able > > to confront and would be forced to withdraw its armed forces and end > > these brutalities. Such a victory would open up the floodgates of a > > revolutionary upheaval throughout the South Asian subcontinent. The > > compromising policies of the left parties’ central leadership have > > crippled the CPIM in Kashmir and it has thus failed to gain the > > support among the youth which it could easily have won. > > > > .............. > > > > This will also have a revolutionary impact in Pakistani Occupied > > Kashmir where the Marxist forces are already growing and gaining > > popular support. The JKNSF has gained a mass basis amongst the youth > > on a revolutionary programme and with the slogan, “Freedom is our aim, > > Socialism is our destiny”. > > > > > > However, a socialist revolution in Kashmir cannot remain confined to > > its borders; in fact it is very difficult to carry out a socialist > > revolution within Kashmir alone without the class solidarity and > > active participation of the working masses of Pakistan and India and > > even if a revolution were to be victorious it could not be sustained > > for long the capitalist imperialist states of India and Pakistan > > remain intact. But the situation is changing not only in Kashmir; > > there are new revolutionary storms that impend across the horizon, > > across the whole of the subcontinent. The conditions for social > > upheaval and militant class struggle are being created everywhere." > > > > > > > > > > > > Best > > > > A. Mani > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > A. Mani > > ASL, CLC, AMS, CMS > > http://www.logicamani.co.cc > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From pheeta.ram at gmail.com Wed Oct 6 03:26:31 2010 From: pheeta.ram at gmail.com (Pheeta Ram) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 03:26:31 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmiri-intifada In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 3:21 AM, Pheeta Ram wrote: > Inder bhai! Zyada zor lagaane ki zaroorat nahin! Hum sehmat hain! > > "Azadi in Kashmir needs a broader conceptual frame to sustain the > dialogue of Freedom.." > > Par yeh kya? SARAI ko kya hua? Kuch galati hui ho to maafi ka praraarthi? Aaapka apna Pheeta Ram > > > On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 8:23 PM, Inder Salim wrote: > >> Thanks dear A Mani >> >> It is always very wonderful to read a new perspective concerning K Issue. >> which in fact is extending K boarder and beyond.... Here the term >> like Marxist might open new vistas of different terminology to connect >> itself with others to bridge the growing new robust youth who are >> already looking different with new avenues to express change of status >> quo. Thereby softening the crest of the terms .... It is JP Sartre >> warns about how we owe our expression to the sumptuousness of terms >> and phrases and terms. so,.... >> >> It is really heartening that POK has a visible base of such a wave >> which can sabotage the USA deep state politics in our region. The US >> aversion of terms like communist has a history of its own which has >> created right wing demon, and it looks it is a matter of time before >> these demons realize the benefits of new understanding the universal ( >> change ) rather than remain confined to religious bigotry and >> fantasy, which only provides an alibi to US and allies to strike at >> will, and keep us fighting each other. Time should come soon when we >> refuse to buy their arms to kill our people.. >> >> >> The are many terms in vogue at the moment in Kashmir which can >> radically change to more universal terms like Pro-Freedom Movement, >> People for Change, Boarder Riders etc. which can attract more and more >> free minds from both sides of the boarder and beyond. >> >> the change is inevitable, may be it is too soon to see a big wave >> picking up the entire region. I am optimistic, >> >> with love >> >> is >> >> On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 4:46 PM, A. Mani wrote: >> > See http://www.marxist.com/kashmiri-intifada.htm >> > >> > >> > The site is of course completely Trotskyist, but the article should be >> > of some interest. >> > >> > Excerpt >> > "Time and again the masses of Kashmir, and specially the youth, have >> > been crushed by state repression but the movement keeps on erupting. >> > However, the present movement is in the hands of a different and a new >> > generation (which was raised in the violent period) and instead of >> > emotional slogans and metaphysical ideologies it is based on the firm >> > realities of deprivation with clear economic and social demands. The >> > rulers of India cannot therefore label it as being sponsored by >> > Pakistan or Islamic fundamentalism. >> > ......... >> > >> > The character of the movement shows that there is growing >> > radicalisation in Kashmiri society and particularly among the youth, >> > and the distrust in religious and so called nationalist parties is >> > proof that this radicalisation is clearly going towards the left. The >> > CPI(M) which has some basis in Kashmir if not vast support, but it >> > needs to provide a clear programme of revolutionary socialism that >> > would inevitably connect with the aspirations of this movement and >> > transform the whole dimension of the conflict in Kashmir on both sides >> > of the ‘line of control’. If the central leadership of CPI(M) instead >> > of following the policy of bourgeois Indian nationalism and the >> > so-called “national democratic revolution” based on the two-stage >> > theory, were to adopt a clear Leninist class policy on the national >> > question by providing solutions to all the problems, including that of >> > national liberation, linked to a socialist revolution and unite the >> > struggle in Kashmir with the class struggle of the Indian proletariat, >> > the state would face a formidable challenge that it would not be able >> > to confront and would be forced to withdraw its armed forces and end >> > these brutalities. Such a victory would open up the floodgates of a >> > revolutionary upheaval throughout the South Asian subcontinent. The >> > compromising policies of the left parties’ central leadership have >> > crippled the CPIM in Kashmir and it has thus failed to gain the >> > support among the youth which it could easily have won. >> > >> > .............. >> > >> > This will also have a revolutionary impact in Pakistani Occupied >> > Kashmir where the Marxist forces are already growing and gaining >> > popular support. The JKNSF has gained a mass basis amongst the youth >> > on a revolutionary programme and with the slogan, “Freedom is our aim, >> > Socialism is our destiny”. >> > >> > >> > However, a socialist revolution in Kashmir cannot remain confined to >> > its borders; in fact it is very difficult to carry out a socialist >> > revolution within Kashmir alone without the class solidarity and >> > active participation of the working masses of Pakistan and India and >> > even if a revolution were to be victorious it could not be sustained >> > for long the capitalist imperialist states of India and Pakistan >> > remain intact. But the situation is changing not only in Kashmir; >> > there are new revolutionary storms that impend across the horizon, >> > across the whole of the subcontinent. The conditions for social >> > upheaval and militant class struggle are being created everywhere." >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Best >> > >> > A. Mani >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > A. Mani >> > ASL, CLC, AMS, CMS >> > http://www.logicamani.co.cc >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > From pheeta.ram at gmail.com Wed Oct 6 03:27:58 2010 From: pheeta.ram at gmail.com (Pheeta Ram) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 03:27:58 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Delivery Status Notification (Failure) In-Reply-To: <0016e6d975ba039e800491e5bc19@google.com> References: <0016e6d975ba039e800491e5bc19@google.com> Message-ID: Hello pheeta.ram at gmail.com, We're writing to let you know that the group you tried to contact (city-as-studio) may not exist, or you may not have permission to post messages to the group. A few more details on why you weren't able to post: * You might have spelled or formatted the group name incorrectly. * The owner of the group may have removed this group. * You may need to join the group before receiving permission to post. * This group may not be open to posting. On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 3:26 AM, Mail Delivery Subsystem < mailer-daemon at google.com> wrote: > Hello pheeta.ram at gmail.com, > > We're writing to let you know that the group you tried to contact > (city-as-studio) may not exist, or you may not have permission to post > messages to the group. A few more details on why you weren't able to post: > > * You might have spelled or formatted the group name incorrectly. > * The owner of the group may have removed this group. > * You may need to join the group before receiving permission to post. > * This group may not be open to posting. > > If you have questions related to this or any other Google Group, visit the > Help Center at http://groups.google.com/support/?hl=en_US. > > Thanks, > > Google Groups > KYA HUAZ? YEH NA POOCHO! > > > > ----- Original message ----- > > Received: by 10.204.127.65 with SMTP id f1mr476117bks.5.1286315794476; > Tue, 05 Oct 2010 14:56:34 -0700 (PDT) > Received: by 10.204.127.65 with SMTP id f1mr476116bks.5.1286315794428; > Tue, 05 Oct 2010 14:56:34 -0700 (PDT) > Return-Path: > Received: from mail-bw0-f52.google.com (mail-bw0-f52.google.com[209.85.214.52]) > by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id > z25si24789bku.5.2010.10.05.14.56.33; > Tue, 05 Oct 2010 14:56:33 -0700 (PDT) > Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of pheeta.ram at gmail.com designates > 209.85.214.52 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.52; > Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of > pheeta.ram at gmail.com designates 209.85.214.52 as permitted sender) > smtp.mail=pheeta.ram at gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com > Received: by mail-bw0-f52.google.com with SMTP id 3so1459189bwz.11 > for ; Tue, 05 Oct 2010 14:56:33 > -0700 (PDT) > DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; > d=gmail.com; s=gamma; > h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:received:in-reply-to > :references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; > bh=TQJC7dsDkhdtnfKKV0Qc4gA2r/rZmepIWYs/vdzZYIQ=; > b=nOw8TpJeZp6UJuFtVDjISn48vwwYrV8yhTTgzLf0xDP22ziwHPaY01wNVZXxcoEKv3 > > 1j8SHs/FJsa81iKxWccfBp3cyS3MvX7uNrZKqe1Fylx6S25mMx9aRVY5kl3elINymRjv > tytosKd9TeNAYAYRJ9mBIIMz42m+bARX2cUG8= > DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; > d=gmail.com; s=gamma; > > h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to > :cc:content-type; > > b=sJT7s4OanGI5xyfTXApA5eN+2HzWrNQOUvQSYjJtIKkrvZqg2qiFLVt+w7yyU1QPFv > > KUzY4Oap85t8ylZuhg2sdOpWVATKVOC5ejp7d8tCVj79CBX4HrzMy4oTSPfKX/jhymCq > B89fjoKUg3QQYKbRJsDXIK4goJoZBtIAOCXSQ= > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Received: by 10.204.85.89 with SMTP id n25mr8897503bkl.105.1286315792145; > Tue, > 05 Oct 2010 14:56:32 -0700 (PDT) > Received: by 10.204.100.193 with HTTP; Tue, 5 Oct 2010 14:56:31 -0700 (PDT) > In-Reply-To: > > References: > > > > > Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 03:26:31 +0530 > Message-ID: > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri-intifada > From: Pheeta Ram > To: Inder Salim > Cc: reader-list , city-as-studio at googlegroups.com > Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e6d56670dc1e250491e5bbf6 > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< > We're writing to let you know that the group you tried to contact > (city-as-studio) may not exist, or you may not have permission to post > messages to the group. A few more details on why you weren't able to post: > > * You might have spelled or formatted the group name incorrectly. > * The owner of the group may have removed this group. > * You may need to join the group before receiving permission to post. > * This group may not be open to posting.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 3:21 AM, Pheeta Ram wrote: > > > Inder bhai! Zyada zor lagaane ki zaroorat nahin! Hum sehmat hain! > > > > "Azadi in Kashmir needs a broader conceptual frame to sustain the > > dialogue of Freedom.." > > > > Par yeh kya? SARAI ko kya hua? Kuch galati hui ho to maafi ka praraarthi? > > Aaapka apna > > Pheeta Ram > > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 8:23 PM, Inder Salim > wrote: > > > >> Thanks dear A Mani > >> > >> It is always very wonderful to read a new perspective concerning K > Issue. > >> which in fact is extending K boarder and beyond.... Here the term > >> like Marxist might open new vistas of different terminology to connect > >> itself with others to bridge the growing new robust youth who are > >> already looking different with new avenues to express change of status > >> quo. Thereby softening the crest of the terms .... It is JP Sartre > >> warns about how we owe our expression to the sumptuousness of terms > >> and phrases and terms. so,.... > >> > >> It is really heartening that POK has a visible base of such a wave > >> which can sabotage the USA deep state politics in our region. The US > >> aversion of terms like communist has a history of its own which has > >> created right wing demon, and it looks it is a matter of time before > >> these demons realize the benefits of new understanding the universal ( > >> change ) rather than remain confined to religious bigotry and > >> fantasy, which only provides an alibi to US and allies to strike at > From a.mani.cms at gmail.com Wed Oct 6 03:46:34 2010 From: a.mani.cms at gmail.com (A. Mani) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 03:46:34 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Corruption etc in Germany Message-ID: It seems they are learning from the corruption, nepotism and general incompetency of the Indian Railway ministry. http://birdflu666.wordpress.com/2010/10/02/civil-war-in-germany-stuttgart-21-protests-rock-country/ Best A. Mani -- A. Mani ASL, CLC,  AMS, CMS http://www.logicamani.co.cc From anivar at movingrepublic.org Wed Oct 6 10:12:30 2010 From: anivar at movingrepublic.org (Anivar Aravind) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 10:12:30 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] UID Scrapped! NASCUM calls for Bharath Bandh In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: UID Scrapped! NASCUM calls for Bharath Bandh The Fish Pond http://thefishpond.in/edwin/2010/uid-scrapped-nascum-calls-for-bharath-bandh/ RNI, SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT, 2 October 2030 Prime Minister Mayawathi today scrapped the Sonia Manmohan UID Tracking System (SMUT) today, just over two decades after it was introduced, to almost universal acclaim. Gandhians hailed it as a tribute to the Father of the Nation on his birth anniversary and recalled that the first direct action of Gandhi was against carrying ID cards in South Africa. The move was supported by the association of school teachers—the designated data collectors—who were getting beaten up every year by those who did not get loans despite having SMUT numbers. Moreover, every vacation of theirs was spent updating the database. Also welcoming the move were the IAS officers’ association. SMUT exposed IAS officers flying to China without departmental permission through Kolkatta. They maintained that their interest had nothing to do with the order of the Supreme Court that all official papers be signed with the individual SMUT of the person concerned. The SC had held that since SMUT was accessible to private parties, it has to be given under RTI. The last ditch attempt by the IAS lobby to amend the law during then Prime Minister Rahul Gandhi’s only term was struck down by the court. Read More goo.gl/9jFE Anivar -- "[It is not] possible to distinguish between 'numerical' and 'nonnumerical' algorithms, as if numbers were somehow different from other kinds of precise information." - Donald Knuth -- "[It is not] possible to distinguish between 'numerical' and 'nonnumerical' algorithms, as if numbers were somehow different from other kinds of precise information." - Donald Knuth From subhachops at gmail.com Wed Oct 6 10:30:01 2010 From: subhachops at gmail.com (Subhash) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 10:30:01 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 197 suicides and 1, 733 deaths at India's nuclear establishments in 15 yrs Message-ID: 197 suicides and 1,733 deaths at India's nuclear establishments in last 15 yrs October 04, 2010 18:03 IST 197 employees belonging to a number of nuclear establishments and related institutes in India have committed suicide and 1,733 scientists and employees belonging to these centres have died of illnesses like multiple organ failure, lung cancer, cirrhosis of liver etc, as per a report compiled by Mumbai-based RTI activist Chetan Kothari. The report based on 175 pages of documents sourced through 32 such centres also reveal that 1,733 employees and scientists from these establishments died due to various illnesses that include cardiac strokes, liver failure, multiple organ failure, tuberculosis, cardio-respiratory diseases, lung cancer, septicemia, cirrhosis of liver, cerebro-vascular dieseases, chronic obstructive pulmonary diseases, mellitus etc amongst a host of other diseases. Interestingly, some of the RTI documents shown to rediff.com by Kothari did not mention the cause of the death and in some other cases mentioned the cause of death as 'brought dead', which Kothari was explained on the condition of anonymity as those who have committed suicides. Kothari, after poring through the 175-pages over the weekend told rediff.com that most of the deceased in this report belonged to the 29-50 age group. Incidentally, one doesn't find the cause of death mentioned as 'due to atomic radiation' against any of the deaths reported in these 15 years at these centres. The data pertains to the period between 1995 to March 2010 and runs into 175 pages sourced over a period of three months by Kothari. It was only recently that the news of scientists belonging to the atomic energy fraternity in India committing suicides had been in the news. The RTI replies from various centres, however, have not dwelled on the reason behind these suicides or how various other illnesses were contracted by the deceased. The largest number of suicide cases at 74 have been reported from Uranium Corporation of India Ltd, Jharkhand, and those who died of other illnesses mentioned above stood at 203 at this centre. Bhabha Atomic Research Centre, Mumbai, have reported highest number of deaths, at 680, of its employees and scientists due to various illnesses. The data has been sourced from the Nuclear Power Corporation of India in Mumbai, Bhabha Atomic Research Centre, Tata Memorial Hospital, Department of Atomic Energy, Atomic Energy Rgulatory Board, Saha Institute of Nuclear Physics (Kolkata), Uranium Corporation of India (Jharkhand), Nuclear Fuel Complex (Hyderabad), Indira Gandhi Centre for Atomic Research, Environmental and Industrial safety (Kalpakkam, Tamil Nadu), The Institute fo Mathematical Sciences (Chennai), Department fo Atomic Energy, Heavy Watyer Plant (Tuticorin), Harish Chandra Research Institute (Allahabad), Institute for Plasma Research Centre (Gandhinagar), Institute of Physics (Bhubaneshwar), Heavy Water Plant in Kota (Rajasthan), Heavy water Pklant, Talcher (Orissa), Raja Ramanna Centre for Advaced Technology (Indore) amongst several others. To check details please click on the links below: http://im.rediff.com/news/2010/oct/04nuclear1.gif http://im.rediff.com/news/2010/oct/04nuclear2.gif http://im.rediff.com/news/2010/oct/04nuclear3.gif http://news.rediff.com/report/2010/oct/04/suicides-at-indias-atomic-centres-in-15-years.htm From nc-agricowi at netcologne.de Wed Oct 6 13:51:32 2010 From: nc-agricowi at netcologne.de (JavaMuseum) Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2010 10:21:32 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] =?iso-8859-1?q?Call_for_netart=3A_10_Years_JavaMuse?= =?iso-8859-1?q?um?= Message-ID: <20101006102132.E3E88C53.5E860DA4@192.168.0.3> Call for proposals ----------------------------------- extended deadline 31 October 2010 ----------------------------------- Celebrate! 2010 - 10 Years JavaMuseum - JavaMuseum - Forum for Internet Technology in Contemporary Art is celebrating its 10th anniversary in 2010, but that's not all --> in addition [NewMediaArtProjectNetwork]:||cologne is celebrating its 10th anniversary in 2010, as well. On this occasion, JavaMuseum is realising a big show online, entitled: "CELEBRATE!" which started on 1 January 2010 already - http://2010.javamuseum.org Founded in 2000 and active since 2001 as a corporate part of [NewMediaArtProjectNetwork:||cologne, JavaMuseum is one of the relevant platforms for Internet based art on the net. Under the direction of Wilfried Agricola de Cologne, JavaMuseum realised more than 20 showcases and competitions of netart in a global context between 2001 and 2009 and is hosting a comprehensive collection of netart since 2000 including more than 400 artists and 1000 art works. In 2006, JavaMuseum launched - JIP - JavaMuseum Interview Project containing meanwhile more than 80 interviews with expersts and artists in the fields of digital and electronic art. On occasion of its 10th anniversary, JavaMuseum is planning to complete until the end of 2010, the netart show, entitled: "Celebrate!" in order to celebrate netart as an exciting, but anyway widely underestimated art genre, yet. This represents the best reason for inviting artists active on the fields of new, digital and electronic media to submit their latest or their older netart art projects which may originate from the years 2000-2010. Please find the details, regulations and entry form on http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=1428 -------------------------------------------------------- JavaMuseum - Forum for Internet Technology in Contemporary Art http://www.javamuseum.org and JIP - JavaMuseum Interview Project http://jip.javamuseum.org are corporate parts of [NewMediaArtProjectNetwork]:||cologne the experimental platform for art and new media from Cologne/Germany info[at]nmartproject.net From indersalim at gmail.com Wed Oct 6 15:41:52 2010 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 15:41:52 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Kashmir Unveiled In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear ......., Arnimaal is a Non Profit Organization based in New Delhi, founded by Ms. Kalpana Tikku. As a small step towards peace building, along with the idea to stop further alienation of the Valley and its inhabitants, we propose to hold a Photo Exhibition cum Discussion on the moods of the Valley. As we all know that while Kashmir has been going through one of the worst turmoils ever, the common man on the streets of the valley is suffering. We intend to present the real picture of the Valley through this visual medium where audiences will get enlightened with the realities on ground. And through that we intend to make the Indian Civil Societies understand what Kashmir is going through and what their lives mean to them in the present circumstances. We have Invited Photographers from across the world to participate, who have worked in Kashmir in the last twenty years. The Exhibition will be followed by an interactive session on the current situation in the valley, where we will have four distinguished guests as Speakers.This will be thrown open to the audience later. Let us have a second look at the beauty of this HEAVEN ON EARTH through the images captured by the lens during these last few months, or even from earlier troubled phases.. These images, we plan to exhibit in a very creative way, enabling the ‘freedom of expression’, here in vogue, to meet the voices of ‘the other’ in a very contemporary aesthetic way. Photography by nature is spiritual, considering it comes from the darkness to show the light. It is more than a medium for factual communication of ideas. It is about depth of feeling, not depth of field.. Human expressions are so diverse, so many, that no words are required to do them justice. This exhibition is a tribute to those, who have suffered the effects of the conflict, in one way or other. We request you to be a part of this amazing journey into the entire gamut of human emotions as seen through the lens, and help us in our endeavor towards a good cause, not just as responsible citizens, but primarily as Good Humans. Our invitees for the exhibition include the National Media (print as well as electronic), prominent members of Civil societies, Social Activists, Corporates, Photographers, Journalists, Artists, Art critics, Art Lovers, Cultural Attaches. The date for the exhibition is the 8th of Oct, 2010 , Timings 3 p.m onwards at India Habitat Centre, Lodhi Road. The timings for open discussion are 7 pm onwards. Speakers are Seema Mustafa, Najeeb Mubarki, Amitabh Mattoo, Vrinda Grover and Gautam Navlakha. Looking forward to having you amongst us . Thanking you, Warm Regards, Kalpana tikku. From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed Oct 6 17:46:02 2010 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 17:46:02 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Kashmir Unveiled In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Raaz ki baaat keh doon to Jaane mehfil main phir kya ho.... On 10/6/10, Inder Salim wrote: > Dear ......., > > > Arnimaal is a Non Profit Organization based in New Delhi, founded by > Ms. Kalpana Tikku. As a small step towards peace building, along with > the idea to stop further alienation of the Valley and its inhabitants, > we propose to hold a Photo Exhibition cum Discussion on the moods of > the Valley. As we all know that while Kashmir has been going through > one of the worst turmoils ever, the common man on the streets of the > valley is suffering. We intend to present the real picture of the > Valley through this visual medium where audiences will get enlightened > with the realities on ground. And through that we intend to make the > Indian Civil Societies understand what Kashmir is going through and > what their lives mean to them in the present circumstances. We have > Invited Photographers from across the world to participate, who have > worked in Kashmir in the last twenty years. The Exhibition will be > followed by an interactive session on the current situation in the > valley, where we will have four distinguished guests as Speakers.This > will be thrown open to the audience later. > Let us have a second look at the beauty of this HEAVEN ON EARTH > through the images captured by the lens during these last few months, > or even from earlier troubled phases.. These images, we plan to > exhibit in a very creative way, enabling the ‘freedom of expression’, > here in vogue, to meet the voices of ‘the other’ in a very > contemporary aesthetic way. Photography by nature is spiritual, > considering it comes from the darkness to show the light. It is more > than a medium for factual communication of ideas. It is about depth of > feeling, not depth of field.. Human expressions are so diverse, so > many, that no words are required to do them justice. This exhibition > is a tribute to those, who have suffered the effects of the conflict, > in one way or other. We request you to be a part of this amazing > journey into the entire gamut of human emotions as seen through the > lens, and help us in our endeavor towards a good cause, not just as > responsible citizens, but primarily as Good Humans. > Our invitees for the exhibition include the National Media (print as > well as electronic), prominent members of Civil societies, Social > Activists, Corporates, Photographers, Journalists, Artists, Art > critics, Art Lovers, Cultural Attaches. > The date for the exhibition is the 8th of Oct, 2010 , Timings 3 p.m > onwards at India Habitat Centre, Lodhi Road. > The timings for open discussion are 7 pm onwards. Speakers are Seema > Mustafa, Najeeb Mubarki, Amitabh Mattoo, Vrinda Grover and Gautam > Navlakha. > > Looking forward to having you amongst us . > Thanking you, > Warm Regards, > Kalpana tikku. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From shuddha at sarai.net Wed Oct 6 20:39:05 2010 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 20:39:05 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Kashmir Unveiled In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6BD6EAF4-55D1-429A-A025-A586FEDBE71C@sarai.net> I suppose that translates as "If I let the secret out, then who knows what will happen at the gathering" What, Pawan, is the 'secret' that you are privy to, that can endanger this gathering? Or, as always, are you going to be a sleazy purveyor of innuendo? On 06-Oct-10, at 5:46 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Raaz ki baaat keh doon to Jaane mehfil main phir kya ho.... > > On 10/6/10, Inder Salim wrote: >> Dear ......., >> >> >> Arnimaal is a Non Profit Organization based in New Delhi, founded by >> Ms. Kalpana Tikku. As a small step towards peace building, along with >> the idea to stop further alienation of the Valley and its >> inhabitants, >> we propose to hold a Photo Exhibition cum Discussion on the moods of >> the Valley. As we all know that while Kashmir has been going through >> one of the worst turmoils ever, the common man on the streets of the >> valley is suffering. We intend to present the real picture of the >> Valley through this visual medium where audiences will get >> enlightened >> with the realities on ground. And through that we intend to make the >> Indian Civil Societies understand what Kashmir is going through and >> what their lives mean to them in the present circumstances. We have >> Invited Photographers from across the world to participate, who have >> worked in Kashmir in the last twenty years. The Exhibition will be >> followed by an interactive session on the current situation in the >> valley, where we will have four distinguished guests as Speakers.This >> will be thrown open to the audience later. >> Let us have a second look at the beauty of this HEAVEN ON EARTH >> through the images captured by the lens during these last few months, >> or even from earlier troubled phases.. These images, we plan to >> exhibit in a very creative way, enabling the ‘freedom of expression’, >> here in vogue, to meet the voices of ‘the other’ in a very >> contemporary aesthetic way. Photography by nature is spiritual, >> considering it comes from the darkness to show the light. It is more >> than a medium for factual communication of ideas. It is about >> depth of >> feeling, not depth of field.. Human expressions are so diverse, so >> many, that no words are required to do them justice. This exhibition >> is a tribute to those, who have suffered the effects of the conflict, >> in one way or other. We request you to be a part of this amazing >> journey into the entire gamut of human emotions as seen through the >> lens, and help us in our endeavor towards a good cause, not just as >> responsible citizens, but primarily as Good Humans. >> Our invitees for the exhibition include the National Media (print as >> well as electronic), prominent members of Civil societies, Social >> Activists, Corporates, Photographers, Journalists, Artists, Art >> critics, Art Lovers, Cultural Attaches. >> The date for the exhibition is the 8th of Oct, 2010 , Timings 3 p.m >> onwards at India Habitat Centre, Lodhi Road. >> The timings for open discussion are 7 pm onwards. Speakers are Seema >> Mustafa, Najeeb Mubarki, Amitabh Mattoo, Vrinda Grover and Gautam >> Navlakha. >> >> Looking forward to having you amongst us . >> Thanking you, >> Warm Regards, >> Kalpana tikku. >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe >> in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From swadhin_sen at yahoo.com Wed Oct 6 21:56:16 2010 From: swadhin_sen at yahoo.com (Swadhin Sen) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 09:26:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Need the contacts of Woman Rights Organizations in Delhi Message-ID: <368139.97373.qm@web52204.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Could any member help me please to get details and contacts of high-profile Women Rights Organization in Delhi. I will be obliged if the organizations which provide legal help for the women, single or collective, are mentioned with the contact of key contact persons. It would be of great help for me. Swadhin Sen Archaeologist - Assistant Professor   Dept.of Archaeology            Tel:       +88 02 779 10 45-51 Ext. 1326 Jahangirnagar University      Mobile:  +88 0172 019 61 76   Savar,Dhaka. Bangladesh    Fax:      +88 02 779 10 52   swadhin_sen at yahoo.com; swadhinsen at hotmail.com www.juniv.edu --- On Tue, 10/5/10, Swadhin Sen wrote: From: Swadhin Sen Subject: Need help on the contacts of Woman Rights Organizations in Delhi To: "reader-list" Date: Tuesday, October 5, 2010, 10:57 AM From aliens at dataone.in Thu Oct 7 09:19:20 2010 From: aliens at dataone.in (Bipin Trivedi) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2010 09:19:20 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] PSEUDO SECULARISTS NOW OPPOSING AYODHYA JUDGEMENT Message-ID: <002101cb65d2$9fe9ac60$dfbd0520$@in> Siddharth Varadarajan article http://www.hindu.com/2010/10/01/stories/2010100163711400.htm in Hindu,Romila Thapar, PUDR surprises me when they writes Ayodhya judgment based on faith only. I think most of them even not read the judgment properly before writing their views. This judgment was after marathon exercise of referring about 274 books thoroughly, 798 past judgments, documents presented by both the parties and various ancient mythological books. As they argue, judgment is not only based on faith but mainly based on 574 pages ASI report. ASI is not an ordinary organization but credible historical survey organization and there is no reason to doubt its credibility. It is surprising that reason given by Varadarajan to doubt the ASI report that it was conducted on 2003 during NDA rule. Exactly pseudo secular type belief. However if you don't consider this, but earlier also ASI took this study between 1975 to 1985 under Historian B B Lal (under congress rule!) and declared in 1990 that he found even bigger monumental existence in the past bellow the present Babri Mosque. He also found at that time line of pillars (stambh) on digging just 4 meter away from mosque. Not only this in July 1992, retired director of ASI Y D Sharma and K M Shrivastav along with 6 other historians carried out search at Ramcoat where mosque was there. They also found the traces of big temple there. Even it was noticed by historian that some pillars used to built mosque was pillars of temple and never found such type of pillars in any other mosques. They have found one Shilalekh also. But, communist historian made allegation that it was stolen from Lucknow museum. However, the curator of museum denied about any such theft from museum in press conference. He has shown shilalekh in the museum to the press people and proved that both the shilalekh are different. However, at that time Arjunsingh (key pseudo secularist. He took many steps just to appease minority but averted by SC in few cases) was union minister stopped the research immediately and took custody of all the relevant documents and probably destroyed. Else traces of temple would have been proved earlier only. Main points of ASI reports are as under. 1. Found the traces of big temple just below the 3 gumbaj of mosque. 2. Found stone shilps of lotus, kaustubh, mani (pearl) and goddess embedded on the wall. 3. Found stone bellow 20 ft showing name of Hindu goddess in devnagri lipi 4. Found black pillars of bird shape. 5. Pair of 30 pillars (30+30) line found in north-south direction. 6. Found round and other shaped bricks which were used in India only. 7. Found round stones kept on the top of the temple or shikhar. 8. History students can easily understand that land bellow 1 ft means about 100 years. So, the things found bellow 20 ft concludes that the material found is at least 1500 to 2000 years old. While, Babar entered in India just before about 500 years. These are just few things mentioned. The report is full of 574 pages proves many more things. So, the learned judges (includes Mr. S U Khan also) after going through such solid report/proof gave correct judgment. However, if they would have gone other way of judgment would be suspicious actually. Thanks Bipin Trivedi From pawan.durani at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 10:01:13 2010 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 10:01:13 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Kashmir Unveiled In-Reply-To: <6BD6EAF4-55D1-429A-A025-A586FEDBE71C@sarai.net> References: <6BD6EAF4-55D1-429A-A025-A586FEDBE71C@sarai.net> Message-ID: Shuddha , Endanger ! Did you say so ? What made you think so . Perhaps the same mind who justifies stone pelting. Why cant it be , as i thought , the political gameplan behind this show ? I am sorry , you have a very bad understanding of words , humanity and history . And it is showing off . Be blessed ...... Hum Kya Chahteeeeeeeeee .........AaaaahJaaaaahDeeeeeeeeh Pawan On 10/6/10, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > I suppose that translates as "If I let the secret out, then who knows > what will happen at the gathering" > > What, Pawan, is the 'secret' that you are privy to, that can endanger > this gathering? > > Or, as always, are you going to be a sleazy purveyor of innuendo? > > > On 06-Oct-10, at 5:46 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > >> Raaz ki baaat keh doon to Jaane mehfil main phir kya ho.... >> >> On 10/6/10, Inder Salim wrote: >>> Dear ......., >>> >>> >>> Arnimaal is a Non Profit Organization based in New Delhi, founded by >>> Ms. Kalpana Tikku. As a small step towards peace building, along with >>> the idea to stop further alienation of the Valley and its >>> inhabitants, >>> we propose to hold a Photo Exhibition cum Discussion on the moods of >>> the Valley. As we all know that while Kashmir has been going through >>> one of the worst turmoils ever, the common man on the streets of the >>> valley is suffering. We intend to present the real picture of the >>> Valley through this visual medium where audiences will get >>> enlightened >>> with the realities on ground. And through that we intend to make the >>> Indian Civil Societies understand what Kashmir is going through and >>> what their lives mean to them in the present circumstances. We have >>> Invited Photographers from across the world to participate, who have >>> worked in Kashmir in the last twenty years. The Exhibition will be >>> followed by an interactive session on the current situation in the >>> valley, where we will have four distinguished guests as Speakers.This >>> will be thrown open to the audience later. >>> Let us have a second look at the beauty of this HEAVEN ON EARTH >>> through the images captured by the lens during these last few months, >>> or even from earlier troubled phases.. These images, we plan to >>> exhibit in a very creative way, enabling the ‘freedom of expression’, >>> here in vogue, to meet the voices of ‘the other’ in a very >>> contemporary aesthetic way. Photography by nature is spiritual, >>> considering it comes from the darkness to show the light. It is more >>> than a medium for factual communication of ideas. It is about >>> depth of >>> feeling, not depth of field.. Human expressions are so diverse, so >>> many, that no words are required to do them justice. This exhibition >>> is a tribute to those, who have suffered the effects of the conflict, >>> in one way or other. We request you to be a part of this amazing >>> journey into the entire gamut of human emotions as seen through the >>> lens, and help us in our endeavor towards a good cause, not just as >>> responsible citizens, but primarily as Good Humans. >>> Our invitees for the exhibition include the National Media (print as >>> well as electronic), prominent members of Civil societies, Social >>> Activists, Corporates, Photographers, Journalists, Artists, Art >>> critics, Art Lovers, Cultural Attaches. >>> The date for the exhibition is the 8th of Oct, 2010 , Timings 3 p.m >>> onwards at India Habitat Centre, Lodhi Road. >>> The timings for open discussion are 7 pm onwards. Speakers are Seema >>> Mustafa, Najeeb Mubarki, Amitabh Mattoo, Vrinda Grover and Gautam >>> Navlakha. >>> >>> Looking forward to having you amongst us . >>> Thanking you, >>> Warm Regards, >>> Kalpana tikku. >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe >>> in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > From indersalim at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 16:00:50 2010 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 16:00:50 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Kashmir Unveiled In-Reply-To: References: <6BD6EAF4-55D1-429A-A025-A586FEDBE71C@sarai.net> Message-ID: Dear Pawan ji Recently Gowhar, my friend, quoted Ghalib on his FB wall. " during my adolescent age, when i picked up a stone to hurl at Mujnoon ( lover ), I thought of my own head. " Gowhar is one of the Kashmiris who hppens to be an ardent supporter of Azadi, but he is not for throwing stones, and wants children to resume classes. True, there are many who think of Violence as an effective tool to acheive their goal, but he knows where to draw the line. There will be no stones at the IHC tomorrow, let alone stone pelting. Kalpana Tikku is showcasing the the recent happenings through images by Kashmiris themselves. There is no hidden agenda. Now it is not a secret that all the kashmiris want Azadi. Govt of India is actually hiding many skeltones in cupboards which all the courageous citizens need to unravel. There will be open discussion at 7 pm as she mentioned in her programme. and if you have time, please join, But if groups like RIK come only to disrupt the smooth exchange of ideas then it would be unfortunate. i understand why you approve any disruption at anything connected to Kashmir. as it happened at Jantar Mantar protest organzied by Kalpana Tikku again. But as an intellegent thinking person, please think its why ? You want Kashmir to remain part of India, a democratic secular and socalist India. right, but is India so ? If India was demoractic in essense it would not impose imposters in in J&K which has ruined all the peaceful forms of nogotiation. For you, that can be erased from memory of our collective history, but you need to understand that if KPs are homeless it is becasue of that policy, that lust for power since 1947. Well, the time has come when the root cause of Kashmir problem is talked about very sincerely. As i said ealier, it is between People and Kashmir and Govt of India. If you dont recognize that core of the Kashmri problem, you are automatically not interested to discuss it in the first place. Even Govt of India will not invite you to sit at the table for any dialogue on Kashmir if you dont enter the fray democratically. Right now, it looks if agenda of yours is to disrupte, then be it so. But dont forget, your own exodus from Kashmir is because there were always elements who were encouraged to disrupte the peaceful process of dialogue. That is our history. the question is : how long we live with that formula , which bleeds reasoning endlessly. with love inder salim Traces of fascism are inside all of us, Love is only the drug which cures it. On 10/7/10, Pawan Durani wrote: > Shuddha , > > Endanger ! Did you say so ? What made you think so . Perhaps the same > mind who justifies stone pelting. > > Why cant it be , as i thought , the political gameplan behind this show ? > > I am sorry , you have a very bad understanding of words , humanity and > history . And it is showing off . > > Be blessed ...... > > Hum Kya Chahteeeeeeeeee .........AaaaahJaaaaahDeeeeeeeeh > > Pawan > > > > On 10/6/10, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > I suppose that translates as "If I let the secret out, then who knows > > what will happen at the gathering" > > > > What, Pawan, is the 'secret' that you are privy to, that can endanger > > this gathering? > > > > Or, as always, are you going to be a sleazy purveyor of innuendo? > > > > > > On 06-Oct-10, at 5:46 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > >> Raaz ki baaat keh doon to Jaane mehfil main phir kya ho.... > >> > >> On 10/6/10, Inder Salim wrote: > >>> Dear ......., > >>> > >>> > >>> Arnimaal is a Non Profit Organization based in New Delhi, founded by > >>> Ms. Kalpana Tikku. As a small step towards peace building, along with > >>> the idea to stop further alienation of the Valley and its > >>> inhabitants, > >>> we propose to hold a Photo Exhibition cum Discussion on the moods of > >>> the Valley. As we all know that while Kashmir has been going through > >>> one of the worst turmoils ever, the common man on the streets of the > >>> valley is suffering. We intend to present the real picture of the > >>> Valley through this visual medium where audiences will get > >>> enlightened > >>> with the realities on ground. And through that we intend to make the > >>> Indian Civil Societies understand what Kashmir is going through and > >>> what their lives mean to them in the present circumstances. We have > >>> Invited Photographers from across the world to participate, who have > >>> worked in Kashmir in the last twenty years. The Exhibition will be > >>> followed by an interactive session on the current situation in the > >>> valley, where we will have four distinguished guests as Speakers.This > >>> will be thrown open to the audience later. > >>> Let us have a second look at the beauty of this HEAVEN ON EARTH > >>> through the images captured by the lens during these last few months, > >>> or even from earlier troubled phases.. These images, we plan to > >>> exhibit in a very creative way, enabling the ‘freedom of expression’, > >>> here in vogue, to meet the voices of ‘the other’ in a very > >>> contemporary aesthetic way. Photography by nature is spiritual, > >>> considering it comes from the darkness to show the light. It is more > >>> than a medium for factual communication of ideas. It is about > >>> depth of > >>> feeling, not depth of field.. Human expressions are so diverse, so > >>> many, that no words are required to do them justice. This exhibition > >>> is a tribute to those, who have suffered the effects of the conflict, > >>> in one way or other. We request you to be a part of this amazing > >>> journey into the entire gamut of human emotions as seen through the > >>> lens, and help us in our endeavor towards a good cause, not just as > >>> responsible citizens, but primarily as Good Humans. > >>> Our invitees for the exhibition include the National Media (print as > >>> well as electronic), prominent members of Civil societies, Social > >>> Activists, Corporates, Photographers, Journalists, Artists, Art > >>> critics, Art Lovers, Cultural Attaches. > >>> The date for the exhibition is the 8th of Oct, 2010 , Timings 3 p.m > >>> onwards at India Habitat Centre, Lodhi Road. > >>> The timings for open discussion are 7 pm onwards. Speakers are Seema > >>> Mustafa, Najeeb Mubarki, Amitabh Mattoo, Vrinda Grover and Gautam > >>> Navlakha. > >>> > >>> Looking forward to having you amongst us . > >>> Thanking you, > >>> Warm Regards, > >>> Kalpana tikku. > >>> _________________________________________ > >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>> subscribe > >>> in the subject header. > >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > > Raqs Media Collective > > shuddha at sarai.net > > www.sarai.net > > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > > > > > -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From kamalhak at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 16:43:42 2010 From: kamalhak at gmail.com (kamalhak at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 11:13:42 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Kashmir Unveiled In-Reply-To: References: <6BD6EAF4-55D1-429A-A025-A586FEDBE71C@sarai.net> Message-ID: <2048967401-1286449945-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-530320887-@bda008.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> Dear Inder, I couldn't resist the temptation of intruding the conversation between Pawan and you. I like your generalization of Kashmiri aspirations and brushing aside with a single stroke any legitimate but divergent desire. I like the way you on one hand profusely advocate democratic process for solving the K issue and in the same breath dismiss Roots in Kashmir's egalitarian expression as disruptive discourse. I also like the way you seek to reconstruct the history and bail out the mind set that forced an absolutely peaceful minority out of their land. I like the way you plead for involving KM's in solution finding process while conveniently ignoring the existence of many other stake holders. I suppose Roots in Kashmir has a serious problem with such people who masquerade as K specialists because ' Tum kehtey ho kagaz dekhi- Main kehta hoon ankhan dekhi' Regards, Kamal Hak PS. I know you will find it hard to believe but for once please remove your coloured glasses to see a sizable number of KM's who don't identify with Azadi sentiment. Unfortunately their voice finds no expression or space as in the current times it would be unfashionable to do so. Regards. Sent from BlackBerry® on Airtel -----Original Message----- From: Inder Salim Sender: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 16:00:50 To: reader-list Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: Kashmir Unveiled Dear Pawan ji Recently Gowhar, my friend, quoted Ghalib on his FB wall. " during my adolescent age, when i picked up a stone to hurl at Mujnoon ( lover ), I thought of my own head. " Gowhar is one of the Kashmiris who hppens to be an ardent supporter of Azadi, but he is not for throwing stones, and wants children to resume classes. True, there are many who think of Violence as an effective tool to acheive their goal, but he knows where to draw the line. There will be no stones at the IHC tomorrow, let alone stone pelting. Kalpana Tikku is showcasing the the recent happenings through images by Kashmiris themselves. There is no hidden agenda. Now it is not a secret that all the kashmiris want Azadi. Govt of India is actually hiding many skeltones in cupboards which all the courageous citizens need to unravel. There will be open discussion at 7 pm as she mentioned in her programme. and if you have time, please join, But if groups like RIK come only to disrupt the smooth exchange of ideas then it would be unfortunate. i understand why you approve any disruption at anything connected to Kashmir. as it happened at Jantar Mantar protest organzied by Kalpana Tikku again. But as an intellegent thinking person, please think its why ? You want Kashmir to remain part of India, a democratic secular and socalist India. right, but is India so ? If India was demoractic in essense it would not impose imposters in in J&K which has ruined all the peaceful forms of nogotiation. For you, that can be erased from memory of our collective history, but you need to understand that if KPs are homeless it is becasue of that policy, that lust for power since 1947. Well, the time has come when the root cause of Kashmir problem is talked about very sincerely. As i said ealier, it is between People and Kashmir and Govt of India. If you dont recognize that core of the Kashmri problem, you are automatically not interested to discuss it in the first place. Even Govt of India will not invite you to sit at the table for any dialogue on Kashmir if you dont enter the fray democratically. Right now, it looks if agenda of yours is to disrupte, then be it so. But dont forget, your own exodus from Kashmir is because there were always elements who were encouraged to disrupte the peaceful process of dialogue. That is our history. the question is : how long we live with that formula , which bleeds reasoning endlessly. with love inder salim Traces of fascism are inside all of us, Love is only the drug which cures it. On 10/7/10, Pawan Durani wrote: > Shuddha , > > Endanger ! Did you say so ? What made you think so . Perhaps the same > mind who justifies stone pelting. > > Why cant it be , as i thought , the political gameplan behind this show ? > > I am sorry , you have a very bad understanding of words , humanity and > history . And it is showing off . > > Be blessed ...... > > Hum Kya Chahteeeeeeeeee .........AaaaahJaaaaahDeeeeeeeeh > > Pawan > > > > On 10/6/10, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > I suppose that translates as "If I let the secret out, then who knows > > what will happen at the gathering" > > > > What, Pawan, is the 'secret' that you are privy to, that can endanger > > this gathering? > > > > Or, as always, are you going to be a sleazy purveyor of innuendo? > > > > > > On 06-Oct-10, at 5:46 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > >> Raaz ki baaat keh doon to Jaane mehfil main phir kya ho.... > >> > >> On 10/6/10, Inder Salim wrote: > >>> Dear ......., > >>> > >>> > >>> Arnimaal is a Non Profit Organization based in New Delhi, founded by > >>> Ms. Kalpana Tikku. As a small step towards peace building, along with > >>> the idea to stop further alienation of the Valley and its > >>> inhabitants, > >>> we propose to hold a Photo Exhibition cum Discussion on the moods of > >>> the Valley. As we all know that while Kashmir has been going through > >>> one of the worst turmoils ever, the common man on the streets of the > >>> valley is suffering. We intend to present the real picture of the > >>> Valley through this visual medium where audiences will get > >>> enlightened > >>> with the realities on ground. And through that we intend to make the > >>> Indian Civil Societies understand what Kashmir is going through and > >>> what their lives mean to them in the present circumstances. We have > >>> Invited Photographers from across the world to participate, who have > >>> worked in Kashmir in the last twenty years. The Exhibition will be > >>> followed by an interactive session on the current situation in the > >>> valley, where we will have four distinguished guests as Speakers.This > >>> will be thrown open to the audience later. > >>> Let us have a second look at the beauty of this HEAVEN ON EARTH > >>> through the images captured by the lens during these last few months, > >>> or even from earlier troubled phases.. These images, we plan to > >>> exhibit in a very creative way, enabling the ‘freedom of expression’, > >>> here in vogue, to meet the voices of ‘the other’ in a very > >>> contemporary aesthetic way. Photography by nature is spiritual, > >>> considering it comes from the darkness to show the light. It is more > >>> than a medium for factual communication of ideas. It is about > >>> depth of > >>> feeling, not depth of field.. Human expressions are so diverse, so > >>> many, that no words are required to do them justice. This exhibition > >>> is a tribute to those, who have suffered the effects of the conflict, > >>> in one way or other. We request you to be a part of this amazing > >>> journey into the entire gamut of human emotions as seen through the > >>> lens, and help us in our endeavor towards a good cause, not just as > >>> responsible citizens, but primarily as Good Humans. > >>> Our invitees for the exhibition include the National Media (print as > >>> well as electronic), prominent members of Civil societies, Social > >>> Activists, Corporates, Photographers, Journalists, Artists, Art > >>> critics, Art Lovers, Cultural Attaches. > >>> The date for the exhibition is the 8th of Oct, 2010 , Timings 3 p.m > >>> onwards at India Habitat Centre, Lodhi Road. > >>> The timings for open discussion are 7 pm onwards. Speakers are Seema > >>> Mustafa, Najeeb Mubarki, Amitabh Mattoo, Vrinda Grover and Gautam > >>> Navlakha. > >>> > >>> Looking forward to having you amongst us . > >>> Thanking you, > >>> Warm Regards, > >>> Kalpana tikku. > >>> _________________________________________ > >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>> subscribe > >>> in the subject header. > >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > > Raqs Media Collective > > shuddha at sarai.net > > www.sarai.net > > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > > > > > -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From cashmeeri at yahoo.com Thu Oct 7 17:49:33 2010 From: cashmeeri at yahoo.com (cashmeeri) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 05:19:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Kashmir Unveiled Message-ID: <635887.10521.qm@web112617.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> inder   "Now it  is not a secret that all the kashmiris want Azadi."   that is quite a stupid statement and false propaganda   the "aazadi' demand in kashmir, is primarily of SOME muslims from kashmir and primarily of those with kashmiri ethnicity   please note my use of the qualification "primarily"      ........ aalok aima         --- On Thu, 10/7/10, Inder Salim wrote: From: Inder Salim Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: Kashmir Unveiled To: "reader-list" Date: Thursday, October 7, 2010, 4:00 PM Dear Pawan ji Recently Gowhar, my friend, quoted Ghalib on his FB wall. " during my adolescent age, when i picked up a stone to hurl at Mujnoon ( lover ), I thought of my own head. " Gowhar is one of the Kashmiris who hppens to be an ardent supporter of Azadi, but he is not for throwing stones, and wants children to resume classes. True, there are many who think of Violence as an effective tool to acheive their goal, but he knows where to draw the line. There will be no stones at the  IHC  tomorrow, let alone stone pelting. Kalpana Tikku is showcasing the the recent happenings through images by Kashmiris themselves. There is no hidden agenda. Now it  is not a secret that all the kashmiris want Azadi. Govt of India is actually hiding many skeltones in cupboards which all the courageous citizens need to unravel. There will be open discussion at 7 pm as she mentioned in her programme. and if you have time, please join, But if groups like RIK come only to disrupt the smooth exchange of ideas then it would be unfortunate. i understand why you approve any disruption at anything connected to Kashmir. as it happened at Jantar Mantar protest organzied by Kalpana Tikku again. But as an intellegent thinking person, please think its why ? You want Kashmir to remain part of India, a democratic secular and socalist India. right, but is India so ? If India was demoractic in essense it would not impose imposters in in J&K which has ruined all the peaceful forms of nogotiation. For you, that can be erased from memory of our collective history, but you need to understand that if KPs are homeless it is becasue of that policy, that lust for power since 1947. Well, the time has come when the root cause of Kashmir problem is talked about very sincerely. As i said ealier, it is between People and Kashmir and Govt of India. If you dont recognize that core of the Kashmri problem, you are automatically not interested to discuss it in the first place. Even Govt of India will not invite you to sit at the table for any dialogue on Kashmir if you dont enter the fray democratically. Right now, it looks if agenda of yours is to disrupte, then be it so. But dont forget, your own exodus from Kashmir is because there were always elements who were encouraged to disrupte the peaceful process of dialogue. That is our history. the question is : how long we live with that formula , which bleeds reasoning endlessly. with love inder salim Traces of fascism are inside all of us, Love is only the drug which cures it. From pawan.durani at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 18:22:04 2010 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 18:22:04 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Kashmir Unveiled In-Reply-To: <635887.10521.qm@web112617.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <635887.10521.qm@web112617.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Inder , I again repeat , I have no idea of whatever "disruption" you re talking about .No wonder you and Shuddha think alike and no wonder "your" kind of thinking mad communism almost extinct from this world. I am not in North part of India for years now , and it has been ages since I have been in contact with any of the activist.... You and Shuddha need to apologize to me for attributing such motives (disruption ) to me , if you both have any sincerity left.... which i doubt. Whether you dance nude at IHC or party hard , it doesnt matter to me . I have understood urs and Shuddha's cunning motives ... Pawan On 10/7/10, cashmeeri wrote: > inder > > "Now it  is not a secret that all the kashmiris want Azadi." > > that is quite a stupid statement and false propaganda > > the "aazadi' demand in kashmir, is primarily of SOME muslims from kashmir > and primarily of those with kashmiri ethnicity > > please note my use of the qualification "primarily" > > > ........ aalok aima > > > > > --- On Thu, 10/7/10, Inder Salim wrote: > > > From: Inder Salim > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: Kashmir Unveiled > To: "reader-list" > Date: Thursday, October 7, 2010, 4:00 PM > > > Dear Pawan ji > > Recently Gowhar, my friend, quoted Ghalib on his FB wall. " during my > adolescent age, when i picked up a stone to hurl at Mujnoon ( lover ), > I thought of my own head. " Gowhar is one of the Kashmiris who hppens > to be an ardent supporter of Azadi, but he is not for throwing stones, > and wants children to resume classes. True, there are many who think > of Violence as an effective tool to acheive their goal, but he knows > where to draw the line. > > There will be no stones at the  IHC  tomorrow, let alone stone > pelting. Kalpana Tikku is showcasing the the recent happenings through > images by Kashmiris themselves. There is no hidden agenda. Now it  is > not a secret that all the kashmiris want Azadi. Govt of India is > actually hiding many skeltones in cupboards which all the courageous > citizens need to unravel. > > There will be open discussion at 7 pm as she mentioned in her > programme. and if you have time, please join, But if groups like RIK > come only to disrupt the smooth exchange of ideas then it would be > unfortunate. > > i understand why you approve any disruption at anything connected to > Kashmir. as it happened at Jantar Mantar protest organzied by Kalpana > Tikku again. But as an intellegent thinking person, please think its > why ? > > You want Kashmir to remain part of India, a democratic secular and > socalist India. right, but is India so ? If India was demoractic in > essense it would not impose imposters in in J&K which has ruined all > the peaceful forms of nogotiation. For you, that can be erased from > memory of our collective history, but you need to understand that if > KPs are homeless it is becasue of that policy, that lust for power > since 1947. > > Well, the time has come when the root cause of Kashmir problem is > talked about very sincerely. As i said ealier, it is between People > and Kashmir and Govt of India. If you dont recognize that core of the > Kashmri problem, you are automatically not interested to discuss it in > the first place. Even Govt of India will not invite you to sit at the > table for any dialogue on Kashmir if you dont enter the fray > democratically. > > Right now, it looks if agenda of yours is to disrupte, then be it so. > > But dont forget, your own exodus from Kashmir is because there were > always elements who were encouraged to disrupte the peaceful process > of dialogue. That is our history. the question is : how long we live > with that formula , which bleeds reasoning endlessly. > > with love > inder salim > > > Traces of fascism are inside all of us, Love is only the drug which cures > it. > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 18:24:34 2010 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 18:24:34 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Kashmir Unveiled In-Reply-To: <6BD6EAF4-55D1-429A-A025-A586FEDBE71C@sarai.net> References: <6BD6EAF4-55D1-429A-A025-A586FEDBE71C@sarai.net> Message-ID: And i forgot to add , the translation part is done well by the commies and likes... remember the translation Mr Sanjay Kak did in parliament case .... Shame ...Shuddha ...Shame .... u can fall to this level is I should have expected. Pawan On 10/6/10, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > I suppose that translates as "If I let the secret out, then who knows > what will happen at the gathering" > > What, Pawan, is the 'secret' that you are privy to, that can endanger > this gathering? > > Or, as always, are you going to be a sleazy purveyor of innuendo? > > > On 06-Oct-10, at 5:46 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > >> Raaz ki baaat keh doon to Jaane mehfil main phir kya ho.... >> >> On 10/6/10, Inder Salim wrote: >>> Dear ......., >>> >>> >>> Arnimaal is a Non Profit Organization based in New Delhi, founded by >>> Ms. Kalpana Tikku. As a small step towards peace building, along with >>> the idea to stop further alienation of the Valley and its >>> inhabitants, >>> we propose to hold a Photo Exhibition cum Discussion on the moods of >>> the Valley. As we all know that while Kashmir has been going through >>> one of the worst turmoils ever, the common man on the streets of the >>> valley is suffering. We intend to present the real picture of the >>> Valley through this visual medium where audiences will get >>> enlightened >>> with the realities on ground. And through that we intend to make the >>> Indian Civil Societies understand what Kashmir is going through and >>> what their lives mean to them in the present circumstances. We have >>> Invited Photographers from across the world to participate, who have >>> worked in Kashmir in the last twenty years. The Exhibition will be >>> followed by an interactive session on the current situation in the >>> valley, where we will have four distinguished guests as Speakers.This >>> will be thrown open to the audience later. >>> Let us have a second look at the beauty of this HEAVEN ON EARTH >>> through the images captured by the lens during these last few months, >>> or even from earlier troubled phases.. These images, we plan to >>> exhibit in a very creative way, enabling the ‘freedom of expression’, >>> here in vogue, to meet the voices of ‘the other’ in a very >>> contemporary aesthetic way. Photography by nature is spiritual, >>> considering it comes from the darkness to show the light. It is more >>> than a medium for factual communication of ideas. It is about >>> depth of >>> feeling, not depth of field.. Human expressions are so diverse, so >>> many, that no words are required to do them justice. This exhibition >>> is a tribute to those, who have suffered the effects of the conflict, >>> in one way or other. We request you to be a part of this amazing >>> journey into the entire gamut of human emotions as seen through the >>> lens, and help us in our endeavor towards a good cause, not just as >>> responsible citizens, but primarily as Good Humans. >>> Our invitees for the exhibition include the National Media (print as >>> well as electronic), prominent members of Civil societies, Social >>> Activists, Corporates, Photographers, Journalists, Artists, Art >>> critics, Art Lovers, Cultural Attaches. >>> The date for the exhibition is the 8th of Oct, 2010 , Timings 3 p.m >>> onwards at India Habitat Centre, Lodhi Road. >>> The timings for open discussion are 7 pm onwards. Speakers are Seema >>> Mustafa, Najeeb Mubarki, Amitabh Mattoo, Vrinda Grover and Gautam >>> Navlakha. >>> >>> Looking forward to having you amongst us . >>> Thanking you, >>> Warm Regards, >>> Kalpana tikku. >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe >>> in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > From javedmasoo at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 18:52:03 2010 From: javedmasoo at gmail.com (Javed) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 18:52:03 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] PSEUDO SECULARISTS NOW OPPOSING AYODHYA JUDGEMENT In-Reply-To: <002101cb65d2$9fe9ac60$dfbd0520$@in> References: <002101cb65d2$9fe9ac60$dfbd0520$@in> Message-ID: Dear Bipin You may call me a pseudo-secularist or a Muslim fundamentalist. But I have a few queries based on your message: - You say that "land bellow 1 ft means about 100 years. So, the things found bellow 20 ft... is at least 1500 to 2000 years old." Is that really from a history/archeology textbook? If someone dug a 10 feet pit 50 years ago and left some bricks or other material would we consider it a 1000 years old material? - You mentioned that "at 20 ft they found stone showing name of Hindu goddess in devnagri lipi". Accoring to your estimate, 20 feet must be 2000 years old. But was devanagri lipi already in use 2000 years ago? That is really some news. According to my humble information, Nagari lipi are first attested from the 8th century AD only. - the high court judgment says that they are not sure if Babur actually built the mosque - they only concur it because of circumstantial evidences. Also they are not sure about the date of the mosque construction. But its amazing that they are hundred percent sure of the exact place of lord Rama's birth (which predates the mosque's construction by centuries). How did they reach that conclusion? - Do you know the exact date/year/era of lord Rama's birth? Thanks, and it would be good if you could provide answers to some of these queries. Javed On 10/7/10, Bipin Trivedi wrote: > > Siddharth Varadarajan article > http://www.hindu.com/2010/10/01/stories/2010100163711400.htm in Hindu,Romila > Thapar, PUDR surprises me when they writes Ayodhya judgment based on faith > only. > > I think most of them even not read the judgment properly before writing > their views. This judgment was after marathon exercise of referring about > 274 books thoroughly, 798 past judgments, documents presented by both the > parties and various ancient mythological books. As they argue, judgment is > not only based on faith but mainly based on 574 pages ASI report. ASI is not > an ordinary organization but credible historical survey organization and > there is no reason to doubt its credibility. It is surprising that reason > given by Varadarajan to doubt the ASI report that it was conducted on 2003 > during NDA rule. Exactly pseudo secular type belief. > > However if you don't consider this, but earlier also ASI took this study > between 1975 to 1985 under Historian B B Lal (under congress rule!) and > declared in 1990 that he found even bigger monumental existence in the past > bellow the present Babri Mosque. He also found at that time line of pillars > (stambh) on digging just 4 meter away from mosque. > > Not only this in July 1992, retired director of ASI Y D Sharma and K M > Shrivastav along with 6 other historians carried out search at Ramcoat where > mosque was there. They also found the traces of big temple there. Even it > was noticed by historian that some pillars used to built mosque was pillars > of temple and never found such type of pillars in any other mosques. > > They have found one Shilalekh also. But, communist historian made allegation > that it was stolen from Lucknow museum. However, the curator of museum > denied about any such theft from museum in press conference. He has shown > shilalekh in the museum to the press people and proved that both the > shilalekh are different. However, at that time Arjunsingh (key pseudo > secularist. He took many steps just to appease minority but averted by SC in > few cases) was union minister stopped the research immediately and took > custody of all the relevant documents and probably destroyed. Else traces of > temple would have been proved earlier only. > > Main points of ASI reports are as under. > 1. Found the traces of big temple just below the 3 gumbaj of mosque. > 2. Found stone shilps of lotus, kaustubh, mani (pearl) and goddess embedded > on the wall. > 3. Found stone bellow 20 ft showing name of Hindu goddess in devnagri lipi > 4. Found black pillars of bird shape. > 5. Pair of 30 pillars (30+30) line found in north-south direction. > 6. Found round and other shaped bricks which were used in India only. > 7. Found round stones kept on the top of the temple or shikhar. > 8. History students can easily understand that land bellow 1 ft means about > 100 years. So, the things found bellow 20 ft concludes that the material > found is at least 1500 to 2000 years old. While, Babar entered in India just > before about 500 years. > > These are just few things mentioned. The report is full of 574 pages proves > many more things. So, the learned judges (includes Mr. S U Khan also) after > going through such solid report/proof gave correct judgment. However, if > they would have gone other way of judgment would be suspicious actually. > > Thanks > Bipin Trivedi > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From shuddha at sarai.net Thu Oct 7 19:08:30 2010 From: shuddha at sarai.net (shuddha at sarai.net) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 13:38:30 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: PSEUDO SECULARISTS NOW OPPOSING AYODHYA JUDGEMENT Message-ID: <1324833067-1286458513-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-488034858-@bda269.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> Sent on my BlackBerry® from Vodafone -----Original Message----- From: shuddha at sarai.net Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 04:53:26 To: Bipin Trivedi Reply-To: shuddha at sarai.net Subject: Re: [Reader-list] PSEUDO SECULARISTS NOW OPPOSING AYODHYA JUDGEMENT Bipin Trivedi, As far as I know, the ASI excavation report indicates a multiple stratigraphic layer. Which means that the structures immediately below the ground at the disputed site themselves sat on top of the remains of even earlier structures. If we take that into account we have to also ask what was demolished in order to make room for the structures that lay under the Babri Masjid. Have you considered whether or not the Ikshvaku clan, whose misogynist mass murdering prince you celebrate, may itself not have destroyed extant cultures to build its palaces. So, now that one layer has been tackled, shall we launch a campaign to 'liberate' what lies beneath the birthplace of your favourite sacred marauder? Sent on my BlackBerry® from Vodafone -----Original Message----- From: Bipin Trivedi Sender: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2010 09:19:20 To: sarai-list Cc: 'Patrice Riemens' Subject: [Reader-list] PSEUDO SECULARISTS NOW OPPOSING AYODHYA JUDGEMENT Siddharth Varadarajan article http://www.hindu.com/2010/10/01/stories/2010100163711400.htm in Hindu,Romila Thapar, PUDR surprises me when they writes Ayodhya judgment based on faith only. I think most of them even not read the judgment properly before writing their views. This judgment was after marathon exercise of referring about 274 books thoroughly, 798 past judgments, documents presented by both the parties and various ancient mythological books. As they argue, judgment is not only based on faith but mainly based on 574 pages ASI report. ASI is not an ordinary organization but credible historical survey organization and there is no reason to doubt its credibility. It is surprising that reason given by Varadarajan to doubt the ASI report that it was conducted on 2003 during NDA rule. Exactly pseudo secular type belief. However if you don't consider this, but earlier also ASI took this study between 1975 to 1985 under Historian B B Lal (under congress rule!) and declared in 1990 that he found even bigger monumental existence in the past bellow the present Babri Mosque. He also found at that time line of pillars (stambh) on digging just 4 meter away from mosque. Not only this in July 1992, retired director of ASI Y D Sharma and K M Shrivastav along with 6 other historians carried out search at Ramcoat where mosque was there. They also found the traces of big temple there. Even it was noticed by historian that some pillars used to built mosque was pillars of temple and never found such type of pillars in any other mosques. They have found one Shilalekh also. But, communist historian made allegation that it was stolen from Lucknow museum. However, the curator of museum denied about any such theft from museum in press conference. He has shown shilalekh in the museum to the press people and proved that both the shilalekh are different. However, at that time Arjunsingh (key pseudo secularist. He took many steps just to appease minority but averted by SC in few cases) was union minister stopped the research immediately and took custody of all the relevant documents and probably destroyed. Else traces of temple would have been proved earlier only. Main points of ASI reports are as under. 1. Found the traces of big temple just below the 3 gumbaj of mosque. 2. Found stone shilps of lotus, kaustubh, mani (pearl) and goddess embedded on the wall. 3. Found stone bellow 20 ft showing name of Hindu goddess in devnagri lipi 4. Found black pillars of bird shape. 5. Pair of 30 pillars (30+30) line found in north-south direction. 6. Found round and other shaped bricks which were used in India only. 7. Found round stones kept on the top of the temple or shikhar. 8. History students can easily understand that land bellow 1 ft means about 100 years. So, the things found bellow 20 ft concludes that the material found is at least 1500 to 2000 years old. While, Babar entered in India just before about 500 years. These are just few things mentioned. The report is full of 574 pages proves many more things. So, the learned judges (includes Mr. S U Khan also) after going through such solid report/proof gave correct judgment. However, if they would have gone other way of judgment would be suspicious actually. Thanks Bipin Trivedi _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From shuddha at sarai.net Thu Oct 7 19:21:53 2010 From: shuddha at sarai.net (shuddha at sarai.net) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 13:51:53 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: Fwd: Kashmir Unveiled Message-ID: <1113817044-1286459316-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1058229273-@bda269.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> Sent on my BlackBerry® from Vodafone -----Original Message----- From: shuddha at sarai.net Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 13:51:03 To: Pawan Durani Reply-To: shuddha at sarai.net Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: Kashmir Unveiled Pawan, I like language, and take translation seriously. You still have not answered my question. What is the 'raaz ki baat' (secret matter) which can produce uncertainty in the 'mehfil' (gathering)? What is secret about an openly conducted public programme? Shuddha Sent on my BlackBerry® from Vodafone -----Original Message----- From: Pawan Durani Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 18:24:34 To: Shuddhabrata Sengupta Cc: Inder Salim; reader-list Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: Kashmir Unveiled And i forgot to add , the translation part is done well by the commies and likes... remember the translation Mr Sanjay Kak did in parliament case .... Shame ...Shuddha ...Shame .... u can fall to this level is I should have expected. Pawan On 10/6/10, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > I suppose that translates as "If I let the secret out, then who knows > what will happen at the gathering" > > What, Pawan, is the 'secret' that you are privy to, that can endanger > this gathering? > > Or, as always, are you going to be a sleazy purveyor of innuendo? > > > On 06-Oct-10, at 5:46 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > >> Raaz ki baaat keh doon to Jaane mehfil main phir kya ho.... >> >> On 10/6/10, Inder Salim wrote: >>> Dear ......., >>> >>> >>> Arnimaal is a Non Profit Organization based in New Delhi, founded by >>> Ms. Kalpana Tikku. As a small step towards peace building, along with >>> the idea to stop further alienation of the Valley and its >>> inhabitants, >>> we propose to hold a Photo Exhibition cum Discussion on the moods of >>> the Valley. As we all know that while Kashmir has been going through >>> one of the worst turmoils ever, the common man on the streets of the >>> valley is suffering. We intend to present the real picture of the >>> Valley through this visual medium where audiences will get >>> enlightened >>> with the realities on ground. And through that we intend to make the >>> Indian Civil Societies understand what Kashmir is going through and >>> what their lives mean to them in the present circumstances. We have >>> Invited Photographers from across the world to participate, who have >>> worked in Kashmir in the last twenty years. The Exhibition will be >>> followed by an interactive session on the current situation in the >>> valley, where we will have four distinguished guests as Speakers.This >>> will be thrown open to the audience later. >>> Let us have a second look at the beauty of this HEAVEN ON EARTH >>> through the images captured by the lens during these last few months, >>> or even from earlier troubled phases.. These images, we plan to >>> exhibit in a very creative way, enabling the ‘freedom of expression’, >>> here in vogue, to meet the voices of ‘the other’ in a very >>> contemporary aesthetic way. Photography by nature is spiritual, >>> considering it comes from the darkness to show the light. It is more >>> than a medium for factual communication of ideas. It is about >>> depth of >>> feeling, not depth of field.. Human expressions are so diverse, so >>> many, that no words are required to do them justice. This exhibition >>> is a tribute to those, who have suffered the effects of the conflict, >>> in one way or other. We request you to be a part of this amazing >>> journey into the entire gamut of human emotions as seen through the >>> lens, and help us in our endeavor towards a good cause, not just as >>> responsible citizens, but primarily as Good Humans. >>> Our invitees for the exhibition include the National Media (print as >>> well as electronic), prominent members of Civil societies, Social >>> Activists, Corporates, Photographers, Journalists, Artists, Art >>> critics, Art Lovers, Cultural Attaches. >>> The date for the exhibition is the 8th of Oct, 2010 , Timings 3 p.m >>> onwards at India Habitat Centre, Lodhi Road. >>> The timings for open discussion are 7 pm onwards. Speakers are Seema >>> Mustafa, Najeeb Mubarki, Amitabh Mattoo, Vrinda Grover and Gautam >>> Navlakha. >>> >>> Looking forward to having you amongst us . >>> Thanking you, >>> Warm Regards, >>> Kalpana tikku. >>>_________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe >>> in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>_________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 19:31:59 2010 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 19:31:59 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: PSEUDO SECULARISTS NOW OPPOSING AYODHYA JUDGEMENT In-Reply-To: <1324833067-1286458513-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-488034858-@bda269.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> References: <1324833067-1286458513-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-488034858-@bda269.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> Message-ID: The moot question is something everybody has missed out, and that should have been answered: will we keep on demolishing buildings and correcting all kinds of historical wrongs? Is that ever possible? That is the main problem. Let us assume that indeed a Ram temple existed on the site. Let us also assume that it was Babar who wanted to show Hindus as coward and celebrate his victory by destroying the temple first and then getting a mosque built on the very same land. He was a barbarian to have done the act (or if someone else did that, that person was the barbarian). Now the question is essentially this: if this act was done in 1528, and today is 1992 or even 2010, should we destroy the mosque and then build the temple to correct the historical wrong? If yes, then by that logic, there would be so many temples which were destroyed to make mosques by rulers who had no respect for faith. Should we destroy all those mosques? More than that, if it were ever to be found that my home had actually a temple (or a mosque/church etc.) built on it before the British or some other authority destroyed it, and then my forefathers built my home on it or started living on it, would it be right for people (anybody, the ASI, VHP, BMAC, SWB and so on) to destroy my house because their place of worship existed before my home? And if yes, for how long? 500 years ago? What about 1,000 years ago? What about say 1,500 years ago? Or is that too old to believe? If the wrong of 500 years back is to be corrected, why not that of 1,000 years ago? Why not before that? And how many homes or places of worship or other buildings would be destroyed this way? And if people say this is only specific for Ayodhya, then why Ayodhya? Why not Kashi? Why not Baba Budaangiri? Why not say your and my home? Who will decide whether to start this process or not? Me? You? VHP? BMAC? ASI? Prime Minister? Advani or Modi? Anyone else? Rakesh From kamalhak at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 19:52:14 2010 From: kamalhak at gmail.com (kamalhak at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 14:22:14 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: PSEUDO SECULARISTS NOW OPPOSING AYODHYA JUDGEMENT In-Reply-To: <1324833067-1286458513-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-488034858-@bda269.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> References: <1324833067-1286458513-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-488034858-@bda269.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <1626968123-1286461257-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2001334730-@bda008.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> Shuddha, I have absolutely no problem with your choice of words or language describing that I call a God and you a marauder. Neither my faith nor my God is so weak that they will need to be protected against the vitriolic of biased mind. But, I have a question, can you dare say a similar thing about the God of some other religion, particularly of those whom you are never tired to defend? Regards, Kamal Hak Sent from BlackBerry® on Airtel -----Original Message----- From: shuddha at sarai.net Sender: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 13:38:30 To: Reply-To: shuddha at sarai.net Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: PSEUDO SECULARISTS NOW OPPOSING AYODHYA JUDGEMENT Sent on my BlackBerry® from Vodafone -----Original Message----- From: shuddha at sarai.net Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 04:53:26 To: Bipin Trivedi Reply-To: shuddha at sarai.net Subject: Re: [Reader-list] PSEUDO SECULARISTS NOW OPPOSING AYODHYA JUDGEMENT Bipin Trivedi, As far as I know, the ASI excavation report indicates a multiple stratigraphic layer. Which means that the structures immediately below the ground at the disputed site themselves sat on top of the remains of even earlier structures. If we take that into account we have to also ask what was demolished in order to make room for the structures that lay under the Babri Masjid. Have you considered whether or not the Ikshvaku clan, whose misogynist mass murdering prince you celebrate, may itself not have destroyed extant cultures to build its palaces. So, now that one layer has been tackled, shall we launch a campaign to 'liberate' what lies beneath the birthplace of your favourite sacred marauder? Sent on my BlackBerry® from Vodafone -----Original Message----- From: Bipin Trivedi Sender: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2010 09:19:20 To: sarai-list Cc: 'Patrice Riemens' Subject: [Reader-list] PSEUDO SECULARISTS NOW OPPOSING AYODHYA JUDGEMENT Siddharth Varadarajan article http://www.hindu.com/2010/10/01/stories/2010100163711400.htm in Hindu,Romila Thapar, PUDR surprises me when they writes Ayodhya judgment based on faith only. I think most of them even not read the judgment properly before writing their views. This judgment was after marathon exercise of referring about 274 books thoroughly, 798 past judgments, documents presented by both the parties and various ancient mythological books. As they argue, judgment is not only based on faith but mainly based on 574 pages ASI report. ASI is not an ordinary organization but credible historical survey organization and there is no reason to doubt its credibility. It is surprising that reason given by Varadarajan to doubt the ASI report that it was conducted on 2003 during NDA rule. Exactly pseudo secular type belief. However if you don't consider this, but earlier also ASI took this study between 1975 to 1985 under Historian B B Lal (under congress rule!) and declared in 1990 that he found even bigger monumental existence in the past bellow the present Babri Mosque. He also found at that time line of pillars (stambh) on digging just 4 meter away from mosque. Not only this in July 1992, retired director of ASI Y D Sharma and K M Shrivastav along with 6 other historians carried out search at Ramcoat where mosque was there. They also found the traces of big temple there. Even it was noticed by historian that some pillars used to built mosque was pillars of temple and never found such type of pillars in any other mosques. They have found one Shilalekh also. But, communist historian made allegation that it was stolen from Lucknow museum. However, the curator of museum denied about any such theft from museum in press conference. He has shown shilalekh in the museum to the press people and proved that both the shilalekh are different. However, at that time Arjunsingh (key pseudo secularist. He took many steps just to appease minority but averted by SC in few cases) was union minister stopped the research immediately and took custody of all the relevant documents and probably destroyed. Else traces of temple would have been proved earlier only. Main points of ASI reports are as under. 1. Found the traces of big temple just below the 3 gumbaj of mosque. 2. Found stone shilps of lotus, kaustubh, mani (pearl) and goddess embedded on the wall. 3. Found stone bellow 20 ft showing name of Hindu goddess in devnagri lipi 4. Found black pillars of bird shape. 5. Pair of 30 pillars (30+30) line found in north-south direction. 6. Found round and other shaped bricks which were used in India only. 7. Found round stones kept on the top of the temple or shikhar. 8. History students can easily understand that land bellow 1 ft means about 100 years. So, the things found bellow 20 ft concludes that the material found is at least 1500 to 2000 years old. While, Babar entered in India just before about 500 years. These are just few things mentioned. The report is full of 574 pages proves many more things. So, the learned judges (includes Mr. S U Khan also) after going through such solid report/proof gave correct judgment. However, if they would have gone other way of judgment would be suspicious actually. Thanks Bipin Trivedi _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From shuddha at sarai.net Thu Oct 7 20:38:46 2010 From: shuddha at sarai.net (shuddha at sarai.net) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 15:08:46 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: PSEUDO SECULARISTS NOW OPPOSING AYODHYA JUDGEMENT In-Reply-To: <1626968123-1286461257-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2001334730-@bda008.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> References: <1324833067-1286458513-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-488034858-@bda269.bisx.produk.on.blackberry><1626968123-1286461257-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2001334730-@bda008.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <743756189-1286463930-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1796937097-@bda269.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> Kamal, All God(s) in the singular, or in the plural, regardless of who worships them, seem to me to be marauders of our fragile humanity I am yet to be convinced otherwise. . I do not recall defending any religion at all. I recall defending human beings, and the defence that I profess for human beings has nothing whatsoever with their religionsnit has to do with the materiality of their lives. I don't see people as suffixes attatched to the predeterminations of faith. Sent on my BlackBerry® from Vodafone -----Original Message----- From: kamalhak at gmail.com Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 14:22:14 To: ; Reply-To: kamalhak at gmail.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fw: PSEUDO SECULARISTS NOW OPPOSING AYODHYA JUDGEMENT Shuddha, I have absolutely no problem with your choice of words or language describing that I call a God and you a marauder. Neither my faith nor my God is so weak that they will need to be protected against the vitriolic of biased mind. But, I have a question, can you dare say a similar thing about the God of some other religion, particularly of those whom you are never tired to defend? Regards, Kamal Hak Sent from BlackBerry® on Airtel -----Original Message----- From: shuddha at sarai.net Sender: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 13:38:30 To: Reply-To: shuddha at sarai.net Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: PSEUDO SECULARISTS NOW OPPOSING AYODHYA JUDGEMENT Sent on my BlackBerry® from Vodafone -----Original Message----- From: shuddha at sarai.net Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 04:53:26 To: Bipin Trivedi Reply-To: shuddha at sarai.net Subject: Re: [Reader-list] PSEUDO SECULARISTS NOW OPPOSING AYODHYA JUDGEMENT Bipin Trivedi, As far as I know, the ASI excavation report indicates a multiple stratigraphic layer. Which means that the structures immediately below the ground at the disputed site themselves sat on top of the remains of even earlier structures. If we take that into account we have to also ask what was demolished in order to make room for the structures that lay under the Babri Masjid. Have you considered whether or not the Ikshvaku clan, whose misogynist mass murdering prince you celebrate, may itself not have destroyed extant cultures to build its palaces. So, now that one layer has been tackled, shall we launch a campaign to 'liberate' what lies beneath the birthplace of your favourite sacred marauder? Sent on my BlackBerry® from Vodafone -----Original Message----- From: Bipin Trivedi Sender: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2010 09:19:20 To: sarai-list Cc: 'Patrice Riemens' Subject: [Reader-list] PSEUDO SECULARISTS NOW OPPOSING AYODHYA JUDGEMENT Siddharth Varadarajan article http://www.hindu.com/2010/10/01/stories/2010100163711400.htm in Hindu,Romila Thapar, PUDR surprises me when they writes Ayodhya judgment based on faith only. I think most of them even not read the judgment properly before writing their views. This judgment was after marathon exercise of referring about 274 books thoroughly, 798 past judgments, documents presented by both the parties and various ancient mythological books. As they argue, judgment is not only based on faith but mainly based on 574 pages ASI report. ASI is not an ordinary organization but credible historical survey organization and there is no reason to doubt its credibility. It is surprising that reason given by Varadarajan to doubt the ASI report that it was conducted on 2003 during NDA rule. Exactly pseudo secular type belief. However if you don't consider this, but earlier also ASI took this study between 1975 to 1985 under Historian B B Lal (under congress rule!) and declared in 1990 that he found even bigger monumental existence in the past bellow the present Babri Mosque. He also found at that time line of pillars (stambh) on digging just 4 meter away from mosque. Not only this in July 1992, retired director of ASI Y D Sharma and K M Shrivastav along with 6 other historians carried out search at Ramcoat where mosque was there. They also found the traces of big temple there. Even it was noticed by historian that some pillars used to built mosque was pillars of temple and never found such type of pillars in any other mosques. They have found one Shilalekh also. But, communist historian made allegation that it was stolen from Lucknow museum. However, the curator of museum denied about any such theft from museum in press conference. He has shown shilalekh in the museum to the press people and proved that both the shilalekh are different. However, at that time Arjunsingh (key pseudo secularist. He took many steps just to appease minority but averted by SC in few cases) was union minister stopped the research immediately and took custody of all the relevant documents and probably destroyed. Else traces of temple would have been proved earlier only. Main points of ASI reports are as under. 1. Found the traces of big temple just below the 3 gumbaj of mosque. 2. Found stone shilps of lotus, kaustubh, mani (pearl) and goddess embedded on the wall. 3. Found stone bellow 20 ft showing name of Hindu goddess in devnagri lipi 4. Found black pillars of bird shape. 5. Pair of 30 pillars (30+30) line found in north-south direction. 6. Found round and other shaped bricks which were used in India only. 7. Found round stones kept on the top of the temple or shikhar. 8. History students can easily understand that land bellow 1 ft means about 100 years. So, the things found bellow 20 ft concludes that the material found is at least 1500 to 2000 years old. While, Babar entered in India just before about 500 years. These are just few things mentioned. The report is full of 574 pages proves many more things. So, the learned judges (includes Mr. S U Khan also) after going through such solid report/proof gave correct judgment. However, if they would have gone other way of judgment would be suspicious actually. Thanks Bipin Trivedi _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From aliens at dataone.in Thu Oct 7 20:44:00 2010 From: aliens at dataone.in (Bipin Trivedi) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2010 20:44:00 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Kashmir Unveiled In-Reply-To: <635887.10521.qm@web112617.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <635887.10521.qm@web112617.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001501cb6632$46deb6f0$d49c24d0$@in> Yes Cashmeeri you are right, it is demand of only few Kashmiri fully supported by Pakistan, but seems demands of majority by created violence. Thanks Bipin Trivedi -----Original Message----- From: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net [mailto:reader-list-bounces at sarai.net] On Behalf Of cashmeeri Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2010 5:50 PM To: reader-list; Inder Salim Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: Kashmir Unveiled inder "Now it is not a secret that all the kashmiris want Azadi." that is quite a stupid statement and false propaganda the "aazadi' demand in kashmir, is primarily of SOME muslims from kashmir and primarily of those with kashmiri ethnicity please note my use of the qualification "primarily" ........ aalok aima --- On Thu, 10/7/10, Inder Salim wrote: From: Inder Salim Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: Kashmir Unveiled To: "reader-list" Date: Thursday, October 7, 2010, 4:00 PM Dear Pawan ji Recently Gowhar, my friend, quoted Ghalib on his FB wall. " during my adolescent age, when i picked up a stone to hurl at Mujnoon ( lover ), I thought of my own head. " Gowhar is one of the Kashmiris who hppens to be an ardent supporter of Azadi, but he is not for throwing stones, and wants children to resume classes. True, there are many who think of Violence as an effective tool to acheive their goal, but he knows where to draw the line. There will be no stones at the IHC tomorrow, let alone stone pelting. Kalpana Tikku is showcasing the the recent happenings through images by Kashmiris themselves. There is no hidden agenda. Now it is not a secret that all the kashmiris want Azadi. Govt of India is actually hiding many skeltones in cupboards which all the courageous citizens need to unravel. There will be open discussion at 7 pm as she mentioned in her programme. and if you have time, please join, But if groups like RIK come only to disrupt the smooth exchange of ideas then it would be unfortunate. i understand why you approve any disruption at anything connected to Kashmir. as it happened at Jantar Mantar protest organzied by Kalpana Tikku again. But as an intellegent thinking person, please think its why ? You want Kashmir to remain part of India, a democratic secular and socalist India. right, but is India so ? If India was demoractic in essense it would not impose imposters in in J&K which has ruined all the peaceful forms of nogotiation. For you, that can be erased from memory of our collective history, but you need to understand that if KPs are homeless it is becasue of that policy, that lust for power since 1947. Well, the time has come when the root cause of Kashmir problem is talked about very sincerely. As i said ealier, it is between People and Kashmir and Govt of India. If you dont recognize that core of the Kashmri problem, you are automatically not interested to discuss it in the first place. Even Govt of India will not invite you to sit at the table for any dialogue on Kashmir if you dont enter the fray democratically. Right now, it looks if agenda of yours is to disrupte, then be it so. But dont forget, your own exodus from Kashmir is because there were always elements who were encouraged to disrupte the peaceful process of dialogue. That is our history. the question is : how long we live with that formula , which bleeds reasoning endlessly. with love inder salim Traces of fascism are inside all of us, Love is only the drug which cures it. _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kamalhak at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 21:10:51 2010 From: kamalhak at gmail.com (kamalhak at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 15:40:51 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: PSEUDO SECULARISTS NOW OPPOSING AYODHYA JUDGEMENT In-Reply-To: <743756189-1286463930-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1796937097-@bda269.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> References: <1324833067-1286458513-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-488034858-@bda269.bisx.produk.on.blackberry><1626968123-1286461257-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2001334730-@bda008.bisx.produk.on.blackberry><743756189-1286463930-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1796937097-@bda269.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <1914676275-1286465977-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-676291254-@bda008.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> Shuddha, You are making a generalized statement thereby playing very safe. I don't believe you are so naïve to miss my point. Anyway, I grant you your little pleasures in the times when sanity is an endangered state of mind. Regards, Kamal Hak Sent from BlackBerry® on Airtel -----Original Message----- From: shuddha at sarai.net Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 15:08:46 To: ; Reply-To: shuddha at sarai.net Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fw: PSEUDO SECULARISTS NOW OPPOSING AYODHYA JUDGEMENT Kamal, All God(s) in the singular, or in the plural, regardless of who worships them, seem to me to be marauders of our fragile humanity I am yet to be convinced otherwise. . I do not recall defending any religion at all. I recall defending human beings, and the defence that I profess for human beings has nothing whatsoever with their religionsnit has to do with the materiality of their lives. I don't see people as suffixes attatched to the predeterminations of faith. Sent on my BlackBerry® from Vodafone -----Original Message----- From: kamalhak at gmail.com Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 14:22:14 To: ; Reply-To: kamalhak at gmail.com Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fw: PSEUDO SECULARISTS NOW OPPOSING AYODHYA JUDGEMENT Shuddha, I have absolutely no problem with your choice of words or language describing that I call a God and you a marauder. Neither my faith nor my God is so weak that they will need to be protected against the vitriolic of biased mind. But, I have a question, can you dare say a similar thing about the God of some other religion, particularly of those whom you are never tired to defend? Regards, Kamal Hak Sent from BlackBerry® on Airtel -----Original Message----- From: shuddha at sarai.net Sender: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 13:38:30 To: Reply-To: shuddha at sarai.net Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: PSEUDO SECULARISTS NOW OPPOSING AYODHYA JUDGEMENT Sent on my BlackBerry® from Vodafone -----Original Message----- From: shuddha at sarai.net Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 04:53:26 To: Bipin Trivedi Reply-To: shuddha at sarai.net Subject: Re: [Reader-list] PSEUDO SECULARISTS NOW OPPOSING AYODHYA JUDGEMENT Bipin Trivedi, As far as I know, the ASI excavation report indicates a multiple stratigraphic layer. Which means that the structures immediately below the ground at the disputed site themselves sat on top of the remains of even earlier structures. If we take that into account we have to also ask what was demolished in order to make room for the structures that lay under the Babri Masjid. Have you considered whether or not the Ikshvaku clan, whose misogynist mass murdering prince you celebrate, may itself not have destroyed extant cultures to build its palaces. So, now that one layer has been tackled, shall we launch a campaign to 'liberate' what lies beneath the birthplace of your favourite sacred marauder? Sent on my BlackBerry® from Vodafone -----Original Message----- From: Bipin Trivedi Sender: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2010 09:19:20 To: sarai-list Cc: 'Patrice Riemens' Subject: [Reader-list] PSEUDO SECULARISTS NOW OPPOSING AYODHYA JUDGEMENT Siddharth Varadarajan article http://www.hindu.com/2010/10/01/stories/2010100163711400.htm in Hindu,Romila Thapar, PUDR surprises me when they writes Ayodhya judgment based on faith only. I think most of them even not read the judgment properly before writing their views. This judgment was after marathon exercise of referring about 274 books thoroughly, 798 past judgments, documents presented by both the parties and various ancient mythological books. As they argue, judgment is not only based on faith but mainly based on 574 pages ASI report. ASI is not an ordinary organization but credible historical survey organization and there is no reason to doubt its credibility. It is surprising that reason given by Varadarajan to doubt the ASI report that it was conducted on 2003 during NDA rule. Exactly pseudo secular type belief. However if you don't consider this, but earlier also ASI took this study between 1975 to 1985 under Historian B B Lal (under congress rule!) and declared in 1990 that he found even bigger monumental existence in the past bellow the present Babri Mosque. He also found at that time line of pillars (stambh) on digging just 4 meter away from mosque. Not only this in July 1992, retired director of ASI Y D Sharma and K M Shrivastav along with 6 other historians carried out search at Ramcoat where mosque was there. They also found the traces of big temple there. Even it was noticed by historian that some pillars used to built mosque was pillars of temple and never found such type of pillars in any other mosques. They have found one Shilalekh also. But, communist historian made allegation that it was stolen from Lucknow museum. However, the curator of museum denied about any such theft from museum in press conference. He has shown shilalekh in the museum to the press people and proved that both the shilalekh are different. However, at that time Arjunsingh (key pseudo secularist. He took many steps just to appease minority but averted by SC in few cases) was union minister stopped the research immediately and took custody of all the relevant documents and probably destroyed. Else traces of temple would have been proved earlier only. Main points of ASI reports are as under. 1. Found the traces of big temple just below the 3 gumbaj of mosque. 2. Found stone shilps of lotus, kaustubh, mani (pearl) and goddess embedded on the wall. 3. Found stone bellow 20 ft showing name of Hindu goddess in devnagri lipi 4. Found black pillars of bird shape. 5. Pair of 30 pillars (30+30) line found in north-south direction. 6. Found round and other shaped bricks which were used in India only. 7. Found round stones kept on the top of the temple or shikhar. 8. History students can easily understand that land bellow 1 ft means about 100 years. So, the things found bellow 20 ft concludes that the material found is at least 1500 to 2000 years old. While, Babar entered in India just before about 500 years. These are just few things mentioned. The report is full of 574 pages proves many more things. So, the learned judges (includes Mr. S U Khan also) after going through such solid report/proof gave correct judgment. However, if they would have gone other way of judgment would be suspicious actually. Thanks Bipin Trivedi _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From aliens at dataone.in Thu Oct 7 21:18:48 2010 From: aliens at dataone.in (Bipin Trivedi) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2010 21:18:48 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] PSEUDO SECULARISTS NOW OPPOSING AYODHYA JUDGEMENT In-Reply-To: References: <002101cb65d2$9fe9ac60$dfbd0520$@in> Message-ID: <001c01cb6637$2261a490$6724edb0$@in> Dear Javed, I am not saying this, this is the general excavation law comes in the study of history. You ask any history student or historian. The things found bellow 20 ft. does not prove it as old as 1500 years, but there is systematic and scientific method to derive its age. Formula to derive the age is purely scientific and universally approved method. Are you sure that devanagri lipi was not used before 2000 years? Can you prove it? There is no way to prove whether it is used at that time or not, but age of the stone found on which this lipi carved was of that time. They were not sure about birth place of Rama, but ASI findings leads to this belief of course along with millions of people faith. There are so many historical personalities whose date/place of birth is unknown and here only faith comes into existence. Thanks Bipin Trivedi -----Original Message----- From: Javed [mailto:javedmasoo at gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2010 6:52 PM To: Bipin Trivedi Cc: sarai-list; Patrice Riemens Subject: Re: [Reader-list] PSEUDO SECULARISTS NOW OPPOSING AYODHYA JUDGEMENT Dear Bipin You may call me a pseudo-secularist or a Muslim fundamentalist. But I have a few queries based on your message: - You say that "land bellow 1 ft means about 100 years. So, the things found bellow 20 ft... is at least 1500 to 2000 years old." Is that really from a history/archeology textbook? If someone dug a 10 feet pit 50 years ago and left some bricks or other material would we consider it a 1000 years old material? - You mentioned that "at 20 ft they found stone showing name of Hindu goddess in devnagri lipi". Accoring to your estimate, 20 feet must be 2000 years old. But was devanagri lipi already in use 2000 years ago? That is really some news. According to my humble information, Nagari lipi are first attested from the 8th century AD only. - the high court judgment says that they are not sure if Babur actually built the mosque - they only concur it because of circumstantial evidences. Also they are not sure about the date of the mosque construction. But its amazing that they are hundred percent sure of the exact place of lord Rama's birth (which predates the mosque's construction by centuries). How did they reach that conclusion? - Do you know the exact date/year/era of lord Rama's birth? Thanks, and it would be good if you could provide answers to some of these queries. Javed On 10/7/10, Bipin Trivedi wrote: > > Siddharth Varadarajan article > http://www.hindu.com/2010/10/01/stories/2010100163711400.htm in Hindu,Romila > Thapar, PUDR surprises me when they writes Ayodhya judgment based on faith > only. > > I think most of them even not read the judgment properly before writing > their views. This judgment was after marathon exercise of referring about > 274 books thoroughly, 798 past judgments, documents presented by both the > parties and various ancient mythological books. As they argue, judgment is > not only based on faith but mainly based on 574 pages ASI report. ASI is not > an ordinary organization but credible historical survey organization and > there is no reason to doubt its credibility. It is surprising that reason > given by Varadarajan to doubt the ASI report that it was conducted on 2003 > during NDA rule. Exactly pseudo secular type belief. > > However if you don't consider this, but earlier also ASI took this study > between 1975 to 1985 under Historian B B Lal (under congress rule!) and > declared in 1990 that he found even bigger monumental existence in the past > bellow the present Babri Mosque. He also found at that time line of pillars > (stambh) on digging just 4 meter away from mosque. > > Not only this in July 1992, retired director of ASI Y D Sharma and K M > Shrivastav along with 6 other historians carried out search at Ramcoat where > mosque was there. They also found the traces of big temple there. Even it > was noticed by historian that some pillars used to built mosque was pillars > of temple and never found such type of pillars in any other mosques. > > They have found one Shilalekh also. But, communist historian made allegation > that it was stolen from Lucknow museum. However, the curator of museum > denied about any such theft from museum in press conference. He has shown > shilalekh in the museum to the press people and proved that both the > shilalekh are different. However, at that time Arjunsingh (key pseudo > secularist. He took many steps just to appease minority but averted by SC in > few cases) was union minister stopped the research immediately and took > custody of all the relevant documents and probably destroyed. Else traces of > temple would have been proved earlier only. > > Main points of ASI reports are as under. > 1. Found the traces of big temple just below the 3 gumbaj of mosque. > 2. Found stone shilps of lotus, kaustubh, mani (pearl) and goddess embedded > on the wall. > 3. Found stone bellow 20 ft showing name of Hindu goddess in devnagri lipi > 4. Found black pillars of bird shape. > 5. Pair of 30 pillars (30+30) line found in north-south direction. > 6. Found round and other shaped bricks which were used in India only. > 7. Found round stones kept on the top of the temple or shikhar. > 8. History students can easily understand that land bellow 1 ft means about > 100 years. So, the things found bellow 20 ft concludes that the material > found is at least 1500 to 2000 years old. While, Babar entered in India just > before about 500 years. > > These are just few things mentioned. The report is full of 574 pages proves > many more things. So, the learned judges (includes Mr. S U Khan also) after > going through such solid report/proof gave correct judgment. However, if > they would have gone other way of judgment would be suspicious actually. > > Thanks > Bipin Trivedi > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rintz.thomas at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 21:23:54 2010 From: rintz.thomas at gmail.com (Rintu Thomas) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 21:23:54 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] "New" Delhi - seen through some very different eyes Message-ID: Dear all, Being hosted in India's capital city of Delhi, the Commonwealth Games 2010 has found the most expensive and grandest venue in its history. While Delhi was being dressed up for this 12-day extravaganza, there were millions who were being quietly evicted and hidden behind the glitter of this mega-event. 'Notes from a Beautiful City' is a 9-min photo-essay that explores the many stories that remained untold, as seen through the eyes of its invisible citizens... Produced by: Open Space (Pune) & Black Ticket Films *Notes from a Beautiful City*: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peFHthxPFz8 Best, Rintu Thomas From javedmasoo at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 22:36:15 2010 From: javedmasoo at gmail.com (Javed) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 22:36:15 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] PSEUDO SECULARISTS NOW OPPOSING AYODHYA JUDGEMENT In-Reply-To: <001c01cb6637$2261a490$6724edb0$@in> References: <002101cb65d2$9fe9ac60$dfbd0520$@in> <001c01cb6637$2261a490$6724edb0$@in> Message-ID: Dear Bipin I cannot prove anything about history that old. No body can. Show me one single historian who can be 100% sure about anything that happened before his/her lifetime. Yes, but we can probably be sure about the history that is happening in our lives. Such as the demolition of the Babari mosque - yes I can prove who did that on which date. By the way, in one sentense you are saying ASI uses scientific and universally approved formula - then another sentence you say their method uses "faith of the millions of people". Sorry that's not a scientific method. All scientific discoveries have to be vetted by other scientists before they can become theories. So if some scientists are systematically criticizing the theories of ASI, why are you scared of criticism, and why do you have to label them commies and pseudos etc.? Javed On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 9:18 PM, Bipin Trivedi wrote: > Dear Javed, > > I am not saying this, this is the general excavation law comes in the study > of history. You ask any history student or historian. The things found > bellow 20 ft. does not prove it as old as 1500 years, but there is > systematic and scientific method to derive its age. Formula to derive the > age is purely scientific and universally approved method. > > Are you sure that devanagri lipi was not used before 2000 years? Can you > prove it? There is no way to prove whether it is used at that time or not, > but age of the stone found on which this lipi carved was of that time. They > were not sure about birth place of Rama, but ASI findings leads to this > belief of course along with millions of people faith. > > There are so many historical personalities whose date/place of birth is > unknown and here only faith comes into existence. > > Thanks > Bipin Trivedi > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Javed [mailto:javedmasoo at gmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2010 6:52 PM > To: Bipin Trivedi > Cc: sarai-list; Patrice Riemens > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] PSEUDO SECULARISTS NOW OPPOSING AYODHYA JUDGEMENT > > Dear Bipin > You may call me a pseudo-secularist or a Muslim fundamentalist. But I > have a few queries based on your message: > > - You say that "land bellow 1 ft means about 100 years. So, the things > found bellow 20 ft... is at least 1500 to 2000 years old." Is that > really from a history/archeology textbook? If someone dug a 10 feet > pit 50 years ago and left some bricks or other material would we > consider it a 1000 years old material? > > - You mentioned that "at 20 ft they found stone showing name of Hindu > goddess in devnagri lipi". Accoring to your estimate, 20 feet must be > 2000 years old. But was devanagri lipi already in use 2000 years ago? > That is really some news. According to my humble information, Nagari > lipi are first attested from the 8th century AD only. > > - the high court judgment says that they are not sure if Babur > actually built the mosque - they only concur it because of > circumstantial evidences. Also they are not sure about the date of the > mosque construction. But its amazing that they are hundred percent > sure of the exact place of lord Rama's birth (which predates the > mosque's construction by centuries). How did they reach that > conclusion? > > - Do you know the exact date/year/era of lord Rama's birth? > > Thanks, and it would be good if you could provide answers to some of > these queries. > > Javed > > > > On 10/7/10, Bipin Trivedi wrote: >> >> Siddharth Varadarajan article >> http://www.hindu.com/2010/10/01/stories/2010100163711400.htm in > Hindu,Romila >> Thapar, PUDR surprises me when they writes Ayodhya judgment based on faith >> only. >> >> I think most of them even not read the judgment properly before writing >> their views. This judgment was after marathon exercise of referring about >> 274 books thoroughly, 798 past judgments, documents presented by both the >> parties and various ancient mythological books. As they argue, judgment is >> not only based on faith but mainly based on 574 pages ASI report. ASI is > not >> an ordinary organization but credible historical survey organization and >> there is no reason to doubt its credibility. It is surprising that reason >> given by Varadarajan to doubt the ASI report that it was conducted on 2003 >> during NDA rule. Exactly pseudo secular type belief. >> >> However if you don't consider this, but earlier also ASI took this study >> between 1975 to 1985 under Historian B B Lal (under congress rule!) and >> declared in 1990 that he found even bigger monumental existence in the > past >> bellow the present Babri Mosque. He also found at that time line of > pillars >> (stambh) on digging just 4 meter away from mosque. >> >> Not only this in July 1992, retired director of ASI Y D Sharma and K M >> Shrivastav along with 6 other historians carried out search at Ramcoat > where >> mosque was there. They also found the traces of big temple there. Even it >> was noticed by historian that some pillars used to built mosque was > pillars >> of temple and never found such type of pillars in any other mosques. >> >> They have found one Shilalekh also. But, communist historian made > allegation >> that it was stolen from Lucknow museum. However, the curator of museum >> denied about any such theft from museum in press conference. He has shown >> shilalekh in the museum to the press people and proved that both the >> shilalekh are different. However, at that time Arjunsingh (key pseudo >> secularist. He took many steps just to appease minority but averted by SC > in >> few cases) was union minister stopped the research immediately and took >> custody of all the relevant documents and probably destroyed. Else traces > of >> temple would have been proved earlier only. >> >> Main points of ASI reports are as under. >> 1. Found the traces of big temple just below the 3 gumbaj of mosque. >> 2. Found stone shilps of lotus, kaustubh, mani (pearl) and goddess > embedded >> on the wall. >> 3. Found stone bellow 20 ft showing name of Hindu goddess in devnagri lipi >> 4. Found black pillars of bird shape. >> 5. Pair of 30 pillars (30+30) line found in north-south direction. >> 6. Found round and other shaped bricks which were used in India only. >> 7. Found round stones kept on the top of the temple or shikhar. >> 8. History students can easily understand that land bellow 1 ft means > about >> 100 years. So, the things found bellow 20 ft concludes that the material >> found is at least 1500 to 2000 years old. While, Babar entered in India > just >> before about 500 years. >> >> These are just few things mentioned. The report is full of 574 pages > proves >> many more things. So, the learned judges (includes Mr. S U Khan also) > after >> going through such solid report/proof gave correct judgment. However, if >> they would have gone other way of judgment would be suspicious actually. >> >> Thanks >> Bipin Trivedi >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe >> in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > From javedmasoo at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 22:38:47 2010 From: javedmasoo at gmail.com (Javed) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 22:38:47 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Why didn't Tulsidas mention Ram temple demolition? Message-ID: Why didn't Tulsidas mention Ram temple demolition? New Delhi, Oct 4 (IANS) Was legendary poet Tulsidas, who wrote 'Ram Charit Manas' in the 16th century, so scared of Mughal emperor Akbar that he did not mention the demolition of a Ram temple in Ayodhya and the construction of the Babri mosque thereupon in his work? 'If a temple standing on the premises in dispute had been demolished and a mosque had been constructed thereupon less than 50 years before Tulsi Das wrote 'Ram Charit Manas' at Ayodhya, there was no reason for not mentioning the said fact by him in his famous book,' Justice S.U. Khan of the Allahabad High Court said in his judgment on the Babri Masjid-Ramjanmabhoomi title suits Sep 30. Justice Khan made this observation while rejecting the contention of several counsel appearing for different Hindu parties on this count. These counsel had tried to explain this vital omission - no mention of the demolition of Ram's temple and construction of the mosque at the site - on the ground that Tulsidas feared emperor Akbar would not like it and cause him harm if he mentioned it. But Justice Khan said such a wild accusation against a poet of such repute and calibre as Tulsidas was rather unpalatable even to non-Hindus. Moreover, Justice Khan says Tulsidas had given up all the comforts of life and had virtually renounced the world by separating himself from his wife for writing 'Ram Charit Manas' at Ayodhya. The work is considered the common man's Ramayana. 'A poet in such a situation and of such calibre is not expected to be fearful in writing the truth,' said Justice Khan. It was during the reign of emperor Akbar (1556-1605) that Tulsidas (1532-1623) wrote 'Ram Charit Manas' from 1574 to 1577 in Awadhi, which was the common man's language at that time. Justice Khan said: 'Even if it is assumed that the mosque was subsequently constructed by Aurangzeb, still Tulsidas should have mentioned in 'Ram Charit Manas' that a specific small piece of land measuring 1,500 square yards or a temple standing on such a site was birthplace of Lord Ram. 'Symbolism and similes are two most essential, handy tools of poetry. Accordingly, if not directly then at least symbolically or in similes some indication could have been given by Tulsidas regarding the premises in dispute to be the birthplace of Lord Ram and demolition of the temple,' underlined Justice Khan. Further disagreeing with the counsel of Hindu parties, Justice Khan said: 'Apart from (its) religious importance, 'Ram Charit Manas' has got great poetical value. Poetry is basically flight of imagination' and this could not be subjected to any fear.' Elaboratin, Justice Khan said: 'Wealth and fear are two great retarding gravitational forces for flight of imagination. No wealthy or fearful person has composed great poetry.' However, he said, this principle does not apply to prose writers. Leo Tolstoy who wrote 'War and Peace', the best novel of the world, was a feudal lord of Russia of considerable wealth and position. The Ayodhya verdict, given by the Lucknow bench of the high court, has divided the disputed land into three parts - one for Ram Lalla, one for the Nirmohi Akhara and one for the Sunni Wakf Board. It also said the Babri mosque had been built on a site that was the birthplace of Hindu god Ram. refer: http://in.news.yahoo.com/43/20101004/812/tnl-why-didn-t-tulsidas-mention-ram-temp.html From zulfi14 at gmail.com Fri Oct 8 00:05:51 2010 From: zulfi14 at gmail.com (Zulfiya Hamzaki) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 00:05:51 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] PSEUDO SECULARISTS NOW OPPOSING AYODHYA JUDGEMENT In-Reply-To: References: <002101cb65d2$9fe9ac60$dfbd0520$@in> <001c01cb6637$2261a490$6724edb0$@in> Message-ID: In lieu of the ensuing discussion, here are two articles that bring to light ASI's controversial history: http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl2015/stories/20030801004000800.htm http://www.thehindu.com/news/states/other-states/article797088.ece Regards, Zulfiya On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 10:36 PM, Javed wrote: > Dear Bipin > I cannot prove anything about history that old. No body can. Show me > one single historian who can be 100% sure about anything that happened > before his/her lifetime. Yes, but we can probably be sure about the > history that is happening in our lives. Such as the demolition of the > Babari mosque - yes I can prove who did that on which date. > > By the way, in one sentense you are saying ASI uses scientific and > universally approved formula - then another sentence you say their > method uses "faith of the millions of people". Sorry that's not a > scientific method. All scientific discoveries have to be vetted by > other scientists before they can become theories. So if some > scientists are systematically criticizing the theories of ASI, why are > you scared of criticism, and why do you have to label them commies and > pseudos etc.? > > Javed > > > > On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 9:18 PM, Bipin Trivedi wrote: > > Dear Javed, > > > > I am not saying this, this is the general excavation law comes in the > study > > of history. You ask any history student or historian. The things found > > bellow 20 ft. does not prove it as old as 1500 years, but there is > > systematic and scientific method to derive its age. Formula to derive the > > age is purely scientific and universally approved method. > > > > Are you sure that devanagri lipi was not used before 2000 years? Can you > > prove it? There is no way to prove whether it is used at that time or > not, > > but age of the stone found on which this lipi carved was of that time. > They > > were not sure about birth place of Rama, but ASI findings leads to this > > belief of course along with millions of people faith. > > > > There are so many historical personalities whose date/place of birth is > > unknown and here only faith comes into existence. > > > > Thanks > > Bipin Trivedi > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Javed [mailto:javedmasoo at gmail.com] > > Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2010 6:52 PM > > To: Bipin Trivedi > > Cc: sarai-list; Patrice Riemens > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] PSEUDO SECULARISTS NOW OPPOSING AYODHYA > JUDGEMENT > > > > Dear Bipin > > You may call me a pseudo-secularist or a Muslim fundamentalist. But I > > have a few queries based on your message: > > > > - You say that "land bellow 1 ft means about 100 years. So, the things > > found bellow 20 ft... is at least 1500 to 2000 years old." Is that > > really from a history/archeology textbook? If someone dug a 10 feet > > pit 50 years ago and left some bricks or other material would we > > consider it a 1000 years old material? > > > > - You mentioned that "at 20 ft they found stone showing name of Hindu > > goddess in devnagri lipi". Accoring to your estimate, 20 feet must be > > 2000 years old. But was devanagri lipi already in use 2000 years ago? > > That is really some news. According to my humble information, Nagari > > lipi are first attested from the 8th century AD only. > > > > - the high court judgment says that they are not sure if Babur > > actually built the mosque - they only concur it because of > > circumstantial evidences. Also they are not sure about the date of the > > mosque construction. But its amazing that they are hundred percent > > sure of the exact place of lord Rama's birth (which predates the > > mosque's construction by centuries). How did they reach that > > conclusion? > > > > - Do you know the exact date/year/era of lord Rama's birth? > > > > Thanks, and it would be good if you could provide answers to some of > > these queries. > > > > Javed > > > > > > > > On 10/7/10, Bipin Trivedi wrote: > >> > >> Siddharth Varadarajan article > >> http://www.hindu.com/2010/10/01/stories/2010100163711400.htm in > > Hindu,Romila > >> Thapar, PUDR surprises me when they writes Ayodhya judgment based on > faith > >> only. > >> > >> I think most of them even not read the judgment properly before writing > >> their views. This judgment was after marathon exercise of referring > about > >> 274 books thoroughly, 798 past judgments, documents presented by both > the > >> parties and various ancient mythological books. As they argue, judgment > is > >> not only based on faith but mainly based on 574 pages ASI report. ASI is > > not > >> an ordinary organization but credible historical survey organization and > >> there is no reason to doubt its credibility. It is surprising that > reason > >> given by Varadarajan to doubt the ASI report that it was conducted on > 2003 > >> during NDA rule. Exactly pseudo secular type belief. > >> > >> However if you don't consider this, but earlier also ASI took this study > >> between 1975 to 1985 under Historian B B Lal (under congress rule!) and > >> declared in 1990 that he found even bigger monumental existence in the > > past > >> bellow the present Babri Mosque. He also found at that time line of > > pillars > >> (stambh) on digging just 4 meter away from mosque. > >> > >> Not only this in July 1992, retired director of ASI Y D Sharma and K M > >> Shrivastav along with 6 other historians carried out search at Ramcoat > > where > >> mosque was there. They also found the traces of big temple there. Even > it > >> was noticed by historian that some pillars used to built mosque was > > pillars > >> of temple and never found such type of pillars in any other mosques. > >> > >> They have found one Shilalekh also. But, communist historian made > > allegation > >> that it was stolen from Lucknow museum. However, the curator of museum > >> denied about any such theft from museum in press conference. He has > shown > >> shilalekh in the museum to the press people and proved that both the > >> shilalekh are different. However, at that time Arjunsingh (key pseudo > >> secularist. He took many steps just to appease minority but averted by > SC > > in > >> few cases) was union minister stopped the research immediately and took > >> custody of all the relevant documents and probably destroyed. Else > traces > > of > >> temple would have been proved earlier only. > >> > >> Main points of ASI reports are as under. > >> 1. Found the traces of big temple just below the 3 gumbaj of mosque. > >> 2. Found stone shilps of lotus, kaustubh, mani (pearl) and goddess > > embedded > >> on the wall. > >> 3. Found stone bellow 20 ft showing name of Hindu goddess in devnagri > lipi > >> 4. Found black pillars of bird shape. > >> 5. Pair of 30 pillars (30+30) line found in north-south direction. > >> 6. Found round and other shaped bricks which were used in India only. > >> 7. Found round stones kept on the top of the temple or shikhar. > >> 8. History students can easily understand that land bellow 1 ft means > > about > >> 100 years. So, the things found bellow 20 ft concludes that the material > >> found is at least 1500 to 2000 years old. While, Babar entered in India > > just > >> before about 500 years. > >> > >> These are just few things mentioned. The report is full of 574 pages > > proves > >> many more things. So, the learned judges (includes Mr. S U Khan also) > > after > >> going through such solid report/proof gave correct judgment. However, if > >> they would have gone other way of judgment would be suspicious actually. > >> > >> Thanks > >> Bipin Trivedi > >> > >> > >> > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe > >> in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From indersalim at gmail.com Fri Oct 8 00:34:32 2010 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 00:34:32 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Kashmir Unveiled In-Reply-To: <5F8FF454105246D7BEAFFA692B230F58@tara> References: <6BD6EAF4-55D1-429A-A025-A586FEDBE71C@sarai.net> <5F8FF454105246D7BEAFFA692B230F58@tara> Message-ID: Dear Tara Prakash /all I really value ur comments, always. "Now it is not a secret that all the kashmiris want Azadi." I am John Nobody in Kashmir or outside Kashmir to give a verdict on Kashmir on any other issue, of which i am not directly a part. I draw inferences from day to day and events, and from a historicity that has confined it to a singularity which refuses to budge beyond that predictable position: the status quo. Strangely i see people of Kashmir building an opinion which is not musical to the ears of Govt of India or to those who rule them by default. Today's comments J&K CM points to the fact that people are forcing their view point even on those who look very obstinate to understand the ground reality. FB is a little reflection of that reality. So, in that sense, you are right, har shaq par ulloo baitha hai ( there is owl on every twig ), but that is how one can see it. What is other perspective. Please reflect upon. " Sadly, people like you are abused as leftists." Am i then a rightist ? In my post to this thread, there is no such pointer which speaks about my leftists mind or otherwise. Well, i reiterate the fact that if there is a move to replace SAS Geelani as the actual sher-i-Kashmir instead of Sheikh Mohd Abdullah, it is because New Delhi failed to understand Sheikh who was openly against Jinnah and Pakistan Merger, and the entire valley was behind him. Whom do you blame for the Islamization of Kashmir. I see India directly, like i see America the actual force behind demolition of Bamiyan Bhdddhas. Sheikh was keen to implement Kashmiri language but had to link kashmir with Jammu and Ladakh, so Urdu as link language, The language i hate to listen in Kashmir spoken by Kashmiris, otherwise so musical in Delhi. Geelani has nothing to match qualities of Sheikh, but Home Minister Chidhambaram sahib is right now knocking his door for an appointment. on the other hand Sheikh was humiliated by a long long imprisonment, why ? How do you interpret it. India is desperate for some resumtion of dialogue but it is the people who offset it now. SAS Geelani?Huriyat can sell people of Kashmir for pea nuts, much badly than Sheikh did later, and they know it in thier hearts, but what is the alternative? To say that there is no Kashmir issue will be saying there is a boarder between Pakistan and India, which is not true. Well, that is that, i come to another perspective. Imagine JP Sartre , the known Leftist philosopher writer,as Indian and living in Delhi, and writing on Kashmir. My idea is that he would take a position similar to what he took with regard to French Occupation of Algeria. Times proved him right. He perhaps, never visited free Algeria, perhaps, because he would never be able to sleep with as many women as he did and would still be able to hold Simone De's tender hand for a daily cup of coffee. So, it is not necessary where one lives, but what thinks of the other, that is important for me. Kashmiris need this to understand themselves and also will let us understand ourselves beyond dull nationalistic irrespective. Dear Kamal ji I know there are huge majority of Muslims in Kashmir who really dont like Kashmir's merger with Pakistan, but everybody understands how India happened to occupy Kashmir. And tell me who does not like independence. Do you know there is a Haryana day which is a holiday in Haryana. It is the day when Haryana got freedom from Punjab. They were taken for a ride by assertive punjabis. Dont tell Himachalis what Punjabis do when it comes to exploitation. So, if tomorrow Hyayana gets a chance to become independent country and control its water and other resources, you will see a overwhelming support for it. well, this is true about any country. Any ethnic population who are rich dont want to share their resources for nothing. and any other community within a country who feel opressed rebel against the core/ruler. The case of Sri Lanaka is a typical one here. Tamils were truly denied to represent themselves in a Sinhalese dominated country. They rebelled and where ruthlessness killed. but is that ethical? So, if India wants to continue killing rebel kashmiris, be it so. both you and me will only see it from a distance. love is . On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 9:11 PM, TaraPrakash wrote: > Dear Inder. > "Now it  is not a secret that all the kashmiris want Azadi." IN other words > those who don't want it are not Kashmiris? The other day you said you had > problem with Gandhi's take on controling desire. Tagore ahd another problem > with Gandhi, he would very often sound less rational and more emotional. The > India came in to existence in 1947 could neither make Gandhi happy, nor it > would Tagore. What was true for India at that time is more true for the > would-be Somalia. > > Bas ek hi ulloo kaafi hai > Bardad gulistan karne ko > Har shaakh pe ulloo baitha hai > Anjam-e gulistan kya hoga? > > Those Kashmiris who don't want to be mislead by a hollow sweet nothing > called "azadi," may be in minority or probably in majority. In either case > they can't be ignored. > > There is used to be a revolutionary left that used to be in favor of a > globalization of the masses. People like you who are in support of drawing > another artificial line between suffering masses are doing a great service > to capitalist forces. Sadly, people like you are abused as leftists. Keep > practising with your stones, the skill will be useful when you will declare > a woman adulterous and stone her to death. > > Scaring children and parents who want to attend schools with the stones must > be giving good practise to the future soldiers of Kashmir and today's > misleaders of youth. > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Inder Salim" > To: "reader-list" > Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2010 6:30 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: Kashmir Unveiled > > >> Dear Pawan ji >> >> Recently Gowhar, my friend, quoted Ghalib on his FB wall. " during my >> adolescent age, when i picked up a stone to hurl at Mujnoon ( lover ), >> I thought of my own head. " Gowhar is one of the Kashmiris who hppens >> to be an ardent supporter of Azadi, but he is not for throwing stones, >> and wants children to resume classes. True, there are many who think >> of Violence as an effective tool to acheive their goal, but he knows >> where to draw the line. >> >> There will be no stones at the  IHC  tomorrow, let alone stone >> pelting. Kalpana Tikku is showcasing the the recent happenings through >> images by Kashmiris themselves. There is no hidden agenda. Now it  is >> not a secret that all the kashmiris want Azadi. Govt of India is >> actually hiding many skeltones in cupboards which all the courageous >> citizens need to unravel. >> >> There will be open discussion at 7 pm as she mentioned in her >> programme. and if you have time, please join, But if groups like RIK >> come only to disrupt the smooth exchange of ideas then it would be >> unfortunate. >> >> i understand why you approve any disruption at anything connected to >> Kashmir. as it happened at Jantar Mantar protest organzied by Kalpana >> Tikku again. But as an intellegent thinking person, please think its >> why ? >> >> You want Kashmir to remain part of India, a democratic secular and >> socalist India. right, but is India so ? If India was demoractic in >> essense it would not impose imposters in in J&K which has ruined all >> the peaceful forms of nogotiation. For you, that can be erased from >> memory of our collective history, but you need to understand that if >> KPs are homeless it is becasue of that policy, that lust for power >> since 1947. >> >> Well, the time has come when the root cause of Kashmir problem is >> talked about very sincerely. As i said ealier, it is between People >> and Kashmir and Govt of India. If you dont recognize that core of the >> Kashmri problem, you are automatically not interested to discuss it in >> the first place. Even Govt of India will not invite you to sit at the >> table for any dialogue on Kashmir if you dont enter the fray >> democratically. >> >> Right now, it looks if agenda of yours is to disrupte, then be it so. >> >> But dont forget, your own exodus from Kashmir is because there were >> always elements who were encouraged to disrupte the peaceful process >> of dialogue. That is our history. the question is : how long we live >> with that formula , which bleeds reasoning endlessly. >> >> with love >> inder salim >> >> >> Traces of fascism are inside all of us, Love is only the drug which cures >> it. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On 10/7/10, Pawan Durani wrote: >>> >>> Shuddha , >>> >>> Endanger ! Did you say so ? What made you think so . Perhaps the same >>> mind who justifies stone pelting. >>> >>> Why cant it be , as i thought , the political gameplan behind this show ? >>> >>> I am sorry , you have a very bad understanding of words , humanity and >>> history . And it is showing off . >>> >>> Be blessed ...... >>> >>> Hum Kya Chahteeeeeeeeee .........AaaaahJaaaaahDeeeeeeeeh >>> >>> Pawan >>> >>> >>> >>> On 10/6/10, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: >>> > I suppose that translates as "If I let the secret out, then who knows >>> > what will happen at the gathering" >>> > >>> > What, Pawan, is the 'secret' that you are privy to, that can endanger >>> > this gathering? >>> > >>> > Or, as always, are you going to be a sleazy purveyor of innuendo? >>> > >>> > >>> > On 06-Oct-10, at 5:46 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: >>> > >>> >> Raaz ki baaat keh doon to Jaane mehfil main phir kya ho.... >>> >> >>> >> On 10/6/10, Inder Salim wrote: >>> >>> Dear ......., >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Arnimaal is a Non Profit Organization based in New Delhi, founded by >>> >>> Ms. Kalpana Tikku. As a small step towards peace building, along with >>> >>> the idea to stop further alienation of the Valley and its >>> >>> inhabitants, >>> >>> we propose to hold a Photo Exhibition cum Discussion on the moods of >>> >>> the Valley. As we all know that while Kashmir has been going through >>> >>> one of the worst turmoils ever, the common man on the streets of the >>> >>> valley is suffering. We intend to present the real picture of the >>> >>> Valley through this visual medium where audiences will get >>> >>> enlightened >>> >>> with the realities on ground. And through that we intend to make the >>> >>> Indian Civil Societies understand what Kashmir is going through and >>> >>> what their lives mean to them in the present circumstances. We have >>> >>> Invited Photographers from across the world to participate, who have >>> >>> worked in Kashmir in the last twenty years. The Exhibition will be >>> >>> followed by an interactive session on the current situation in the >>> >>> valley, where we will have four distinguished guests as Speakers.This >>> >>> will be thrown open to the audience later. >>> >>> Let us have a second look at the beauty of this HEAVEN ON EARTH >>> >>> through the images captured by the lens during these last few months, >>> >>> or even from earlier troubled phases.. These images, we plan to >>> >>> exhibit in a very creative way, enabling the ‘freedom of expression’, >>> >>> here in vogue, to meet the voices of ‘the other’ in a very >>> >>> contemporary aesthetic way. Photography by nature is spiritual, >>> >>> considering it comes from the darkness to show the light. It is more >>> >>> than a medium for factual communication of ideas. It is about >>> >>> depth of >>> >>> feeling, not depth of field.. Human expressions are so diverse, so >>> >>> many, that no words are required to do them justice. This exhibition >>> >>> is a tribute to those, who have suffered the effects of the conflict, >>> >>> in one way or other. We request you to be a part of this amazing >>> >>> journey into the entire gamut of human emotions as seen through the >>> >>> lens, and help us in our endeavor towards a good cause, not just as >>> >>> responsible citizens, but primarily as Good Humans. >>> >>> Our invitees for the exhibition include the National Media (print as >>> >>> well as electronic), prominent members of Civil societies, Social >>> >>> Activists, Corporates, Photographers, Journalists, Artists, Art >>> >>> critics, Art Lovers, Cultural Attaches. >>> >>> The date for the exhibition is the 8th of Oct, 2010 , Timings 3 p.m >>> >>> onwards at India Habitat Centre, Lodhi Road. >>> >>> The timings for open discussion are 7 pm onwards.  Speakers are Seema >>> >>> Mustafa, Najeeb Mubarki, Amitabh Mattoo, Vrinda Grover and Gautam >>> >>> Navlakha. >>> >>> >>> >>> Looking forward to having you amongst us . >>> >>> Thanking you, >>> >>> Warm Regards, >>> >>> Kalpana tikku. >>> >>> _________________________________________ >>> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> >>> subscribe >>> >>> in the subject header. >>> >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >> _________________________________________ >>> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> >> Critiques & Collaborations >>> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> >> subscribe in the subject header. >>> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> > >>> > Shuddhabrata Sengupta >>> > The Sarai Programme at CSDS >>> > Raqs Media Collective >>> > shuddha at sarai.net >>> > www.sarai.net >>> > www.raqsmediacollective.net >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> >> >> >> -- >> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From taraprakash at gmail.com Fri Oct 8 02:35:59 2010 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 17:05:59 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Why didn't Tulsidas mention Ram temple demolition? References: Message-ID: <28F7436EDADD4676A698828DE58D5B56@tara> Well, it is a good question why Tulsidas did not talk about destruction of the temple. Irfan Habib and Kapil Kumar will have there answers to that question. This is what comes to my mind. Probably the demolition never happened. However, I believe Babarnama talks about a demolition. Tulsidas talks neither of destruction nor of any existence of a temple or that of a mosque. If you try to learn about the contemporary society through his translation of Ramayan, there were no Muslims, no mosques, no Babar, Akbar or any Hindu ruler. I think Ramayan is about a time gone by, real or fictional, and not about 16th century India. Tulsidas did not ever make a claim that point x was the birthplace of Rama. Unlike a lot of Indians, Muslims and Hindus, he is concerned with his God and not with a place of worship. He says which city Rama was borne, but he also says Ayodhya is where Rama is. This probably answers Mr. judge's question. However, he is right in saying that there is no way to conclusively establish where the temple was. Or that there was a temple and it was demolished. I think we should start a signature campaign demanding a bar in the disputed region. As Harivansh Bacchan has rightly told us: Mandir masjid vair barhate Meil karati madhushala. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Javed" To: "sarai list" Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2010 1:08 PM Subject: [Reader-list] Why didn't Tulsidas mention Ram temple demolition? > Why didn't Tulsidas mention Ram temple demolition? > > New Delhi, Oct 4 (IANS) Was legendary poet Tulsidas, who wrote 'Ram > Charit Manas' in the 16th century, so scared of Mughal emperor Akbar > that he did not mention the demolition of a Ram temple in Ayodhya and > the construction of the Babri mosque thereupon in his work? > > 'If a temple standing on the premises in dispute had been demolished > and a mosque had been constructed thereupon less than 50 years before > Tulsi Das wrote 'Ram Charit Manas' at Ayodhya, there was no reason for > not mentioning the said fact by him in his famous book,' Justice S.U. > Khan of the Allahabad High Court said in his judgment on the Babri > Masjid-Ramjanmabhoomi title suits Sep 30. > > Justice Khan made this observation while rejecting the contention of > several counsel appearing for different Hindu parties on this count. > > These counsel had tried to explain this vital omission - no mention of > the demolition of Ram's temple and construction of the mosque at the > site - on the ground that Tulsidas feared emperor Akbar would not like > it and cause him harm if he mentioned it. > > But Justice Khan said such a wild accusation against a poet of such > repute and calibre as Tulsidas was rather unpalatable even to > non-Hindus. > > Moreover, Justice Khan says Tulsidas had given up all the comforts of > life and had virtually renounced the world by separating himself from > his wife for writing 'Ram Charit Manas' at Ayodhya. The work is > considered the common man's Ramayana. > > 'A poet in such a situation and of such calibre is not expected to be > fearful in writing the truth,' said Justice Khan. > > It was during the reign of emperor Akbar (1556-1605) that Tulsidas > (1532-1623) wrote 'Ram Charit Manas' from 1574 to 1577 in Awadhi, > which was the common man's language at that time. > > Justice Khan said: 'Even if it is assumed that the mosque was > subsequently constructed by Aurangzeb, still Tulsidas should have > mentioned in 'Ram Charit Manas' that a specific small piece of land > measuring 1,500 square yards or a temple standing on such a site was > birthplace of Lord Ram. > > 'Symbolism and similes are two most essential, handy tools of poetry. > Accordingly, if not directly then at least symbolically or in similes > some indication could have been given by Tulsidas regarding the > premises in dispute to be the birthplace of Lord Ram and demolition of > the temple,' underlined Justice Khan. > > Further disagreeing with the counsel of Hindu parties, Justice Khan > said: 'Apart from (its) religious importance, 'Ram Charit Manas' has > got great poetical value. Poetry is basically flight of imagination' > and this could not be subjected to any fear.' > > Elaboratin, Justice Khan said: 'Wealth and fear are two great > retarding gravitational forces for flight of imagination. No wealthy > or fearful person has composed great poetry.' > > However, he said, this principle does not apply to prose writers. Leo > Tolstoy who wrote 'War and Peace', the best novel of the world, was a > feudal lord of Russia of considerable wealth and position. > > The Ayodhya verdict, given by the Lucknow bench of the high court, has > divided the disputed land into three parts - one for Ram Lalla, one > for the Nirmohi Akhara and one for the Sunni Wakf Board. It also said > the Babri mosque had been built on a site that was the birthplace of > Hindu god Ram. > > refer: > http://in.news.yahoo.com/43/20101004/812/tnl-why-didn-t-tulsidas-mention-ram-temp.html > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Fri Oct 8 09:53:11 2010 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 09:53:11 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: Fwd: Kashmir Unveiled In-Reply-To: <1113817044-1286459316-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1058229273-@bda269.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> References: <1113817044-1286459316-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1058229273-@bda269.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> Message-ID: Dear Shuddha , It was about two months back when I used to access Facebook , which I dont do now , I saw quite a number of posts wherein it was mentioned that a Kashmiri hindu girl has converted to Islam. There were subsequent posts by so called "ullema" congratulating sister "Aisha", the adopted name of lady , into the new faith . The original name of the lady , which sounds same as that what Inder has mentioned as the organiser of whatever event is being held. I may be wrong , and could have checked again but it would be very time consuming and would need lots of efforts . I have a time constraint for that. What makes a person convert , and then look out for politics in the new religion ...if it is true....is a *raaz* i have myself not understood. Pawan From kamalhak at gmail.com Fri Oct 8 10:42:16 2010 From: kamalhak at gmail.com (kamalhak at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 05:12:16 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Kashmir Unveiled In-Reply-To: References: <6BD6EAF4-55D1-429A-A025-A586FEDBE71C@sarai.net><5F8FF454105246D7BEAFFA692B230F58@tara> Message-ID: <1398950854-1286514658-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1293743207-@bda008.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> Dear Inder, Don't you think you are mixing the societal ambitions of communities with pan national aspirations of people whose perceptions are dictated by supposedly discriminatory policies of the state. You have introduced a new paradigm to whole debate by equating linguistic aspirations of Haryana with faith based discourse of Kashmiris. This could be interesting in presence of any genuine credence. I am not aware of any mass scale exodus of Panjabi speaking people in the aftermath of the division of erstwhile state. To the contrary Kashmir has been witness to the worst displacement of people forced into exodus in anticipation of a totalitarian dispensation. Now please don't bring in Jagmohan into this. I don't approve of what Srilanka did in its northern parts. Perhaps, India could have managed the turmoil in Kashmir more sensibly. But I firmly refuse to exonerate both Tamil leadership in Sri Lanka and KM leadership in Kashmir for leading the gullible masses on a path of misery and suffering. Regards, Kamal Hak Sent from BlackBerry® on Airtel -----Original Message----- From: Inder Salim Sender: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 00:34:32 To: reader-list Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: Kashmir Unveiled Dear Tara Prakash /all I really value ur comments, always. "Now it is not a secret that all the kashmiris want Azadi." I am John Nobody in Kashmir or outside Kashmir to give a verdict on Kashmir on any other issue, of which i am not directly a part. I draw inferences from day to day and events, and from a historicity that has confined it to a singularity which refuses to budge beyond that predictable position: the status quo. Strangely i see people of Kashmir building an opinion which is not musical to the ears of Govt of India or to those who rule them by default. Today's comments J&K CM points to the fact that people are forcing their view point even on those who look very obstinate to understand the ground reality. FB is a little reflection of that reality. So, in that sense, you are right, har shaq par ulloo baitha hai ( there is owl on every twig ), but that is how one can see it. What is other perspective. Please reflect upon. " Sadly, people like you are abused as leftists." Am i then a rightist ? In my post to this thread, there is no such pointer which speaks about my leftists mind or otherwise. Well, i reiterate the fact that if there is a move to replace SAS Geelani as the actual sher-i-Kashmir instead of Sheikh Mohd Abdullah, it is because New Delhi failed to understand Sheikh who was openly against Jinnah and Pakistan Merger, and the entire valley was behind him. Whom do you blame for the Islamization of Kashmir. I see India directly, like i see America the actual force behind demolition of Bamiyan Bhdddhas. Sheikh was keen to implement Kashmiri language but had to link kashmir with Jammu and Ladakh, so Urdu as link language, The language i hate to listen in Kashmir spoken by Kashmiris, otherwise so musical in Delhi. Geelani has nothing to match qualities of Sheikh, but Home Minister Chidhambaram sahib is right now knocking his door for an appointment. on the other hand Sheikh was humiliated by a long long imprisonment, why ? How do you interpret it. India is desperate for some resumtion of dialogue but it is the people who offset it now. SAS Geelani?Huriyat can sell people of Kashmir for pea nuts, much badly than Sheikh did later, and they know it in thier hearts, but what is the alternative? To say that there is no Kashmir issue will be saying there is a boarder between Pakistan and India, which is not true. Well, that is that, i come to another perspective. Imagine JP Sartre , the known Leftist philosopher writer,as Indian and living in Delhi, and writing on Kashmir. My idea is that he would take a position similar to what he took with regard to French Occupation of Algeria. Times proved him right. He perhaps, never visited free Algeria, perhaps, because he would never be able to sleep with as many women as he did and would still be able to hold Simone De's tender hand for a daily cup of coffee. So, it is not necessary where one lives, but what thinks of the other, that is important for me. Kashmiris need this to understand themselves and also will let us understand ourselves beyond dull nationalistic irrespective. Dear Kamal ji I know there are huge majority of Muslims in Kashmir who really dont like Kashmir's merger with Pakistan, but everybody understands how India happened to occupy Kashmir. And tell me who does not like independence. Do you know there is a Haryana day which is a holiday in Haryana. It is the day when Haryana got freedom from Punjab. They were taken for a ride by assertive punjabis. Dont tell Himachalis what Punjabis do when it comes to exploitation. So, if tomorrow Hyayana gets a chance to become independent country and control its water and other resources, you will see a overwhelming support for it. well, this is true about any country. Any ethnic population who are rich dont want to share their resources for nothing. and any other community within a country who feel opressed rebel against the core/ruler. The case of Sri Lanaka is a typical one here. Tamils were truly denied to represent themselves in a Sinhalese dominated country. They rebelled and where ruthlessness killed. but is that ethical? So, if India wants to continue killing rebel kashmiris, be it so. both you and me will only see it from a distance. love is . On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 9:11 PM, TaraPrakash wrote: > Dear Inder. > "Now it  is not a secret that all the kashmiris want Azadi." IN other words > those who don't want it are not Kashmiris? The other day you said you had > problem with Gandhi's take on controling desire. Tagore ahd another problem > with Gandhi, he would very often sound less rational and more emotional. The > India came in to existence in 1947 could neither make Gandhi happy, nor it > would Tagore. What was true for India at that time is more true for the > would-be Somalia. > > Bas ek hi ulloo kaafi hai > Bardad gulistan karne ko > Har shaakh pe ulloo baitha hai > Anjam-e gulistan kya hoga? > > Those Kashmiris who don't want to be mislead by a hollow sweet nothing > called "azadi," may be in minority or probably in majority. In either case > they can't be ignored. > > There is used to be a revolutionary left that used to be in favor of a > globalization of the masses. People like you who are in support of drawing > another artificial line between suffering masses are doing a great service > to capitalist forces. Sadly, people like you are abused as leftists. Keep > practising with your stones, the skill will be useful when you will declare > a woman adulterous and stone her to death. > > Scaring children and parents who want to attend schools with the stones must > be giving good practise to the future soldiers of Kashmir and today's > misleaders of youth. > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Inder Salim" > To: "reader-list" > Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2010 6:30 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: Kashmir Unveiled > > >> Dear Pawan ji >> >> Recently Gowhar, my friend, quoted Ghalib on his FB wall. " during my >> adolescent age, when i picked up a stone to hurl at Mujnoon ( lover ), >> I thought of my own head. " Gowhar is one of the Kashmiris who hppens >> to be an ardent supporter of Azadi, but he is not for throwing stones, >> and wants children to resume classes. True, there are many who think >> of Violence as an effective tool to acheive their goal, but he knows >> where to draw the line. >> >> There will be no stones at the  IHC  tomorrow, let alone stone >> pelting. Kalpana Tikku is showcasing the the recent happenings through >> images by Kashmiris themselves. There is no hidden agenda. Now it  is >> not a secret that all the kashmiris want Azadi. Govt of India is >> actually hiding many skeltones in cupboards which all the courageous >> citizens need to unravel. >> >> There will be open discussion at 7 pm as she mentioned in her >> programme. and if you have time, please join, But if groups like RIK >> come only to disrupt the smooth exchange of ideas then it would be >> unfortunate. >> >> i understand why you approve any disruption at anything connected to >> Kashmir. as it happened at Jantar Mantar protest organzied by Kalpana >> Tikku again. But as an intellegent thinking person, please think its >> why ? >> >> You want Kashmir to remain part of India, a democratic secular and >> socalist India. right, but is India so ? If India was demoractic in >> essense it would not impose imposters in in J&K which has ruined all >> the peaceful forms of nogotiation. For you, that can be erased from >> memory of our collective history, but you need to understand that if >> KPs are homeless it is becasue of that policy, that lust for power >> since 1947. >> >> Well, the time has come when the root cause of Kashmir problem is >> talked about very sincerely. As i said ealier, it is between People >> and Kashmir and Govt of India. If you dont recognize that core of the >> Kashmri problem, you are automatically not interested to discuss it in >> the first place. Even Govt of India will not invite you to sit at the >> table for any dialogue on Kashmir if you dont enter the fray >> democratically. >> >> Right now, it looks if agenda of yours is to disrupte, then be it so. >> >> But dont forget, your own exodus from Kashmir is because there were >> always elements who were encouraged to disrupte the peaceful process >> of dialogue. That is our history. the question is : how long we live >> with that formula , which bleeds reasoning endlessly. >> >> with love >> inder salim >> >> >> Traces of fascism are inside all of us, Love is only the drug which cures >> it. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On 10/7/10, Pawan Durani wrote: >>> >>> Shuddha , >>> >>> Endanger ! Did you say so ? What made you think so . Perhaps the same >>> mind who justifies stone pelting. >>> >>> Why cant it be , as i thought , the political gameplan behind this show ? >>> >>> I am sorry , you have a very bad understanding of words , humanity and >>> history . And it is showing off . >>> >>> Be blessed ...... >>> >>> Hum Kya Chahteeeeeeeeee .........AaaaahJaaaaahDeeeeeeeeh >>> >>> Pawan >>> >>> >>> >>> On 10/6/10, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: >>> > I suppose that translates as "If I let the secret out, then who knows >>> > what will happen at the gathering" >>> > >>> > What, Pawan, is the 'secret' that you are privy to, that can endanger >>> > this gathering? >>> > >>> > Or, as always, are you going to be a sleazy purveyor of innuendo? >>> > >>> > >>> > On 06-Oct-10, at 5:46 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: >>> > >>> >> Raaz ki baaat keh doon to Jaane mehfil main phir kya ho.... >>> >> >>> >> On 10/6/10, Inder Salim wrote: >>> >>> Dear ......., >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Arnimaal is a Non Profit Organization based in New Delhi, founded by >>> >>> Ms. Kalpana Tikku. As a small step towards peace building, along with >>> >>> the idea to stop further alienation of the Valley and its >>> >>> inhabitants, >>> >>> we propose to hold a Photo Exhibition cum Discussion on the moods of >>> >>> the Valley. As we all know that while Kashmir has been going through >>> >>> one of the worst turmoils ever, the common man on the streets of the >>> >>> valley is suffering. We intend to present the real picture of the >>> >>> Valley through this visual medium where audiences will get >>> >>> enlightened >>> >>> with the realities on ground. And through that we intend to make the >>> >>> Indian Civil Societies understand what Kashmir is going through and >>> >>> what their lives mean to them in the present circumstances. We have >>> >>> Invited Photographers from across the world to participate, who have >>> >>> worked in Kashmir in the last twenty years. The Exhibition will be >>> >>> followed by an interactive session on the current situation in the >>> >>> valley, where we will have four distinguished guests as Speakers.This >>> >>> will be thrown open to the audience later. >>> >>> Let us have a second look at the beauty of this HEAVEN ON EARTH >>> >>> through the images captured by the lens during these last few months, >>> >>> or even from earlier troubled phases.. These images, we plan to >>> >>> exhibit in a very creative way, enabling the ‘freedom of expression’, >>> >>> here in vogue, to meet the voices of ‘the other’ in a very >>> >>> contemporary aesthetic way. Photography by nature is spiritual, >>> >>> considering it comes from the darkness to show the light. It is more >>> >>> than a medium for factual communication of ideas. It is about >>> >>> depth of >>> >>> feeling, not depth of field.. Human expressions are so diverse, so >>> >>> many, that no words are required to do them justice. This exhibition >>> >>> is a tribute to those, who have suffered the effects of the conflict, >>> >>> in one way or other. We request you to be a part of this amazing >>> >>> journey into the entire gamut of human emotions as seen through the >>> >>> lens, and help us in our endeavor towards a good cause, not just as >>> >>> responsible citizens, but primarily as Good Humans. >>> >>> Our invitees for the exhibition include the National Media (print as >>> >>> well as electronic), prominent members of Civil societies, Social >>> >>> Activists, Corporates, Photographers, Journalists, Artists, Art >>> >>> critics, Art Lovers, Cultural Attaches. >>> >>> The date for the exhibition is the 8th of Oct, 2010 , Timings 3 p.m >>> >>> onwards at India Habitat Centre, Lodhi Road. >>> >>> The timings for open discussion are 7 pm onwards.  Speakers are Seema >>> >>> Mustafa, Najeeb Mubarki, Amitabh Mattoo, Vrinda Grover and Gautam >>> >>> Navlakha. >>> >>> >>> >>> Looking forward to having you amongst us . >>> >>> Thanking you, >>> >>> Warm Regards, >>> >>> Kalpana tikku. >>> >>> _________________________________________ >>> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> >>> subscribe >>> >>> in the subject header. >>> >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >> _________________________________________ >>> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> >> Critiques & Collaborations >>> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> >> subscribe in the subject header. >>> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> > >>> > Shuddhabrata Sengupta >>> > The Sarai Programme at CSDS >>> > Raqs Media Collective >>> > shuddha at sarai.net >>> > www.sarai.net >>> > www.raqsmediacollective.net >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> >> >> >> -- >> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From indersalim at gmail.com Fri Oct 8 16:06:18 2010 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 16:06:18 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Kashmir Unveiled In-Reply-To: <1398950854-1286514658-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1293743207-@bda008.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> References: <6BD6EAF4-55D1-429A-A025-A586FEDBE71C@sarai.net> <5F8FF454105246D7BEAFFA692B230F58@tara> <1398950854-1286514658-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1293743207-@bda008.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> Message-ID: I "But I firmly refuse to exonerate both Tamil leadership in Sri Lanka and KM leadership in Kashmir for leading the gullible masses on a path of misery and suffering." Dear Kamal ji can i add Delhi leadership to ur above statment ? Further, I also firmly beleive, that corrupt and insensitive leadership in New Delhi has played a cruel but silent role in exodus of KPs from kashmir. Further they repeatedly turn blind eye to fix the noted killers in Kashmir. One glaring example is Bitta Karate. It is the Govt of India which a different game plan , and you will only look naive if you exonrate GOI at every debate which involves justice for all those who suffered during these 20 years. Quite a difficult task for you. I gave an example of Haryana to understand how every other community, small or big, are inwardly waiting for a jsut freedom which is sometimes take advante of faulty paper work and become explicitly assertive and therefore more visible as we see in Kashmir. I dont see anything wrong if communites build up a dream to imagine a free country for themselves. There are many examples like that even in Europe, and belive me, it is a matter of time before they start asking for their rights. Haryana got freedom from Punjab and they celebrate it. I dont think you disapprove that. But your consolation is that they remain within the Indian union. But who knows about future. Who dreamt the sudden collapse of USSR. there are many examples in the world where boarders keep on changing, what is so big about it. I gave an example of Sartre with regard to French occupation of Algeria. He was isolated by French intellgentia at that time, but times proved him right. If French had unwisely continued to occupy Algeria, no wonder that sucide bomboers and stone pleters would have mushroomed there. you have not touched the point when i said that how America is implict in the the destruction of Bamiyan Buddha. That was to explain if Kashmir and Afghanistan is under the grip of Islamic fundamalists forces , but who is responsible ? So, you have exonerate many decent looking polititicians and countries to fix responsiblites on the leadership of these troubled areas. love is On 10/8/10, kamalhak at gmail.com wrote: > Dear Inder, > Don't you think you are mixing the societal ambitions of communities with pan national aspirations of people whose perceptions are dictated by supposedly discriminatory policies of the state. You have introduced a new paradigm to whole debate by equating linguistic aspirations of Haryana with faith based discourse of Kashmiris. This could be interesting in presence of any genuine credence. I am not aware of any mass scale exodus of Panjabi speaking people in the aftermath of the division of erstwhile state. To the contrary Kashmir has been witness to the worst displacement of people forced into exodus in anticipation of a totalitarian dispensation. Now please don't bring in Jagmohan into this. > > I don't approve of what Srilanka did in its northern parts. Perhaps, India could have managed the turmoil in Kashmir more sensibly. But I firmly refuse to exonerate both Tamil leadership in Sri Lanka and KM leadership in Kashmir for leading the gullible masses on a path of misery and suffering. > > Regards, > > Kamal Hak > Sent from BlackBerry® on Airtel > > -----Original Message----- > From: Inder Salim > Sender: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net > Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 00:34:32 > To: reader-list > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: Kashmir Unveiled > > Dear Tara Prakash /all > > I really value ur comments, always. > "Now it is not a secret that all the kashmiris want Azadi." > > I am John Nobody in Kashmir or outside Kashmir to give a verdict on > Kashmir on any other issue, of which i am not directly a part. I draw > inferences from day to day and events, and from a historicity that has > confined it to a singularity which refuses to budge beyond that > predictable position: the status quo. > > Strangely i see people of Kashmir building an opinion which is not > musical to the ears of Govt of India or to those who rule them by > default. Today's comments J&K CM points to the fact that people are > forcing their view point even on those who look very obstinate to > understand the ground reality. FB is a little reflection of that > reality. > > So, in that sense, you are right, har shaq par ulloo baitha hai ( > there is owl on every twig ), but that is how one can see it. What is > other perspective. Please reflect upon. > > " Sadly, people like you are abused as leftists." Am i then a rightist ? > > In my post to this thread, there is no such pointer which speaks about > my leftists mind or otherwise. Well, i reiterate the fact that if > there is a move to replace SAS Geelani as the actual sher-i-Kashmir > instead of Sheikh Mohd Abdullah, it is because New Delhi failed to > understand Sheikh who was openly against Jinnah and Pakistan Merger, > and the entire valley was behind him. Whom do you blame for the > Islamization of Kashmir. I see India directly, like i see America the > actual force behind demolition of Bamiyan Bhdddhas. Sheikh was keen to > implement Kashmiri language but had to link kashmir with Jammu and > Ladakh, so Urdu as link language, The language i hate to listen in > Kashmir spoken by Kashmiris, otherwise so musical in Delhi. > > Geelani has nothing to match qualities of Sheikh, but Home Minister > Chidhambaram sahib is right now knocking his door for an appointment. > on the other hand Sheikh was humiliated by a long long imprisonment, > why ? How do you interpret it. India is desperate for some resumtion > of dialogue but it is the people who offset it now. SAS > Geelani?Huriyat can sell people of Kashmir for pea nuts, much badly > than Sheikh did later, and they know it in thier hearts, but what is > the alternative? > > To say that there is no Kashmir issue will be saying there is a > boarder between Pakistan and India, which is not true. > > Well, that is that, i come to another perspective. Imagine JP Sartre , > the known Leftist philosopher writer,as Indian and living in Delhi, > and writing on Kashmir. My idea is that he would take a position > similar to what he took with regard to French Occupation of Algeria. > Times proved him right. He perhaps, never visited free Algeria, > perhaps, because he would never be able to sleep with as many women as > he did and would still be able to hold Simone De's tender hand for a > daily cup of coffee. So, it is not necessary where one lives, but what > thinks of the other, that is important for me. Kashmiris need this to > understand themselves and also will let us understand ourselves beyond > dull nationalistic irrespective. > > > Dear Kamal ji > I know there are huge majority of Muslims in Kashmir who really dont > like Kashmir's merger with Pakistan, but everybody understands how > India happened to occupy Kashmir. And tell me who does not like > independence. Do you know there is a Haryana day which is a holiday in > Haryana. It is the day when Haryana got freedom from Punjab. They were > taken for a ride by assertive punjabis. Dont tell Himachalis what > Punjabis do when it comes to exploitation. So, if tomorrow Hyayana > gets a chance to become independent country and control its water and > other resources, you will see a overwhelming support for it. well, > this is true about any country. Any ethnic population who are rich > dont want to share their resources for nothing. and any other > community within a country who feel opressed rebel against the > core/ruler. > > The case of Sri Lanaka is a typical one here. Tamils were truly denied > to represent themselves in a Sinhalese dominated country. They > rebelled and where ruthlessness killed. but is that ethical? > > So, if India wants to continue killing rebel kashmiris, be it so. > > both you and me will only see it from a distance. > > love > is > > > > > > . > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 9:11 PM, TaraPrakash wrote: > > Dear Inder. > > "Now it is not a secret that all the kashmiris want Azadi." IN other words > > those who don't want it are not Kashmiris? The other day you said you had > > problem with Gandhi's take on controling desire. Tagore ahd another problem > > with Gandhi, he would very often sound less rational and more emotional. The > > India came in to existence in 1947 could neither make Gandhi happy, nor it > > would Tagore. What was true for India at that time is more true for the > > would-be Somalia. > > > > Bas ek hi ulloo kaafi hai > > Bardad gulistan karne ko > > Har shaakh pe ulloo baitha hai > > Anjam-e gulistan kya hoga? > > > > Those Kashmiris who don't want to be mislead by a hollow sweet nothing > > called "azadi," may be in minority or probably in majority. In either case > > they can't be ignored. > > > > There is used to be a revolutionary left that used to be in favor of a > > globalization of the masses. People like you who are in support of drawing > > another artificial line between suffering masses are doing a great service > > to capitalist forces. Sadly, people like you are abused as leftists. Keep > > practising with your stones, the skill will be useful when you will declare > > a woman adulterous and stone her to death. > > > > Scaring children and parents who want to attend schools with the stones must > > be giving good practise to the future soldiers of Kashmir and today's > > misleaders of youth. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Inder Salim" > > To: "reader-list" > > Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2010 6:30 AM > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: Kashmir Unveiled > > > > > >> Dear Pawan ji > >> > >> Recently Gowhar, my friend, quoted Ghalib on his FB wall. " during my > >> adolescent age, when i picked up a stone to hurl at Mujnoon ( lover ), > >> I thought of my own head. " Gowhar is one of the Kashmiris who hppens > >> to be an ardent supporter of Azadi, but he is not for throwing stones, > >> and wants children to resume classes. True, there are many who think > >> of Violence as an effective tool to acheive their goal, but he knows > >> where to draw the line. > >> > >> There will be no stones at the IHC tomorrow, let alone stone > >> pelting. Kalpana Tikku is showcasing the the recent happenings through > >> images by Kashmiris themselves. There is no hidden agenda. Now it is > >> not a secret that all the kashmiris want Azadi. Govt of India is > >> actually hiding many skeltones in cupboards which all the courageous > >> citizens need to unravel. > >> > >> There will be open discussion at 7 pm as she mentioned in her > >> programme. and if you have time, please join, But if groups like RIK > >> come only to disrupt the smooth exchange of ideas then it would be > >> unfortunate. > >> > >> i understand why you approve any disruption at anything connected to > >> Kashmir. as it happened at Jantar Mantar protest organzied by Kalpana > >> Tikku again. But as an intellegent thinking person, please think its > >> why ? > >> > >> You want Kashmir to remain part of India, a democratic secular and > >> socalist India. right, but is India so ? If India was demoractic in > >> essense it would not impose imposters in in J&K which has ruined all > >> the peaceful forms of nogotiation. For you, that can be erased from > >> memory of our collective history, but you need to understand that if > >> KPs are homeless it is becasue of that policy, that lust for power > >> since 1947. > >> > >> Well, the time has come when the root cause of Kashmir problem is > >> talked about very sincerely. As i said ealier, it is between People > >> and Kashmir and Govt of India. If you dont recognize that core of the > >> Kashmri problem, you are automatically not interested to discuss it in > >> the first place. Even Govt of India will not invite you to sit at the > >> table for any dialogue on Kashmir if you dont enter the fray > >> democratically. > >> > >> Right now, it looks if agenda of yours is to disrupte, then be it so. > >> > >> But dont forget, your own exodus from Kashmir is because there were > >> always elements who were encouraged to disrupte the peaceful process > >> of dialogue. That is our history. the question is : how long we live > >> with that formula , which bleeds reasoning endlessly. > >> > >> with love > >> inder salim > >> > >> > >> Traces of fascism are inside all of us, Love is only the drug which cures > >> it. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On 10/7/10, Pawan Durani wrote: > >>> > >>> Shuddha , > >>> > >>> Endanger ! Did you say so ? What made you think so . Perhaps the same > >>> mind who justifies stone pelting. > >>> > >>> Why cant it be , as i thought , the political gameplan behind this show ? > >>> > >>> I am sorry , you have a very bad understanding of words , humanity and > >>> history . And it is showing off . > >>> > >>> Be blessed ...... > >>> > >>> Hum Kya Chahteeeeeeeeee .........AaaaahJaaaaahDeeeeeeeeh > >>> > >>> Pawan > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On 10/6/10, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > >>> > I suppose that translates as "If I let the secret out, then who knows > >>> > what will happen at the gathering" > >>> > > >>> > What, Pawan, is the 'secret' that you are privy to, that can endanger > >>> > this gathering? > >>> > > >>> > Or, as always, are you going to be a sleazy purveyor of innuendo? > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > On 06-Oct-10, at 5:46 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > >>> > > >>> >> Raaz ki baaat keh doon to Jaane mehfil main phir kya ho.... > >>> >> > >>> >> On 10/6/10, Inder Salim wrote: > >>> >>> Dear ......., > >>> >>> > >>> >>> > >>> >>> Arnimaal is a Non Profit Organization based in New Delhi, founded by > >>> >>> Ms. Kalpana Tikku. As a small step towards peace building, along with > >>> >>> the idea to stop further alienation of the Valley and its > >>> >>> inhabitants, > >>> >>> we propose to hold a Photo Exhibition cum Discussion on the moods of > >>> >>> the Valley. As we all know that while Kashmir has been going through > >>> >>> one of the worst turmoils ever, the common man on the streets of the > >>> >>> valley is suffering. We intend to present the real picture of the > >>> >>> Valley through this visual medium where audiences will get > >>> >>> enlightened > >>> >>> with the realities on ground. And through that we intend to make the > >>> >>> Indian Civil Societies understand what Kashmir is going through and > >>> >>> what their lives mean to them in the present circumstances. We have > >>> >>> Invited Photographers from across the world to participate, who have > >>> >>> worked in Kashmir in the last twenty years. The Exhibition will be > >>> >>> followed by an interactive session on the current situation in the > >>> >>> valley, where we will have four distinguished guests as Speakers.This > >>> >>> will be thrown open to the audience later. > >>> >>> Let us have a second look at the beauty of this HEAVEN ON EARTH > >>> >>> through the images captured by the lens during these last few months, > >>> >>> or even from earlier troubled phases.. These images, we plan to > >>> >>> exhibit in a very creative way, enabling the ‘freedom of expression’, > >>> >>> here in vogue, to meet the voices of ‘the other’ in a very > >>> >>> contemporary aesthetic way. Photography by nature is spiritual, > >>> >>> considering it comes from the darkness to show the light. It is more > >>> >>> than a medium for factual communication of ideas. It is about > >>> >>> depth of > >>> >>> feeling, not depth of field.. Human expressions are so diverse, so > >>> >>> many, that no words are required to do them justice. This exhibition > >>> >>> is a tribute to those, who have suffered the effects of the conflict, > >>> >>> in one way or other. We request you to be a part of this amazing > >>> >>> journey into the entire gamut of human emotions as seen through the > >>> >>> lens, and help us in our endeavor towards a good cause, not just as > >>> >>> responsible citizens, but primarily as Good Humans. > >>> >>> Our invitees for the exhibition include the National Media (print as > >>> >>> well as electronic), prominent members of Civil societies, Social > >>> >>> Activists, Corporates, Photographers, Journalists, Artists, Art > >>> >>> critics, Art Lovers, Cultural Attaches. > >>> >>> The date for the exhibition is the 8th of Oct, 2010 , Timings 3 p.m > >>> >>> onwards at India Habitat Centre, Lodhi Road. > >>> >>> The timings for open discussion are 7 pm onwards. Speakers are Seema > >>> >>> Mustafa, Najeeb Mubarki, Amitabh Mattoo, Vrinda Grover and Gautam > >>> >>> Navlakha. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> Looking forward to having you amongst us . > >>> >>> Thanking you, > >>> >>> Warm Regards, > >>> >>> Kalpana tikku. > >>> >>> _________________________________________ > >>> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>> >>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>> >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>> >>> subscribe > >>> >>> in the subject header. > >>> >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>> >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >>> >> _________________________________________ > >>> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>> >> Critiques & Collaborations > >>> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>> >> subscribe in the subject header. > >>> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >>> > > >>> > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > >>> > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > >>> > Raqs Media Collective > >>> > shuddha at sarai.net > >>> > www.sarai.net > >>> > www.raqsmediacollective.net > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> > >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From kamalhak at gmail.com Fri Oct 8 21:32:57 2010 From: kamalhak at gmail.com (kamalhak at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 16:02:57 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Kashmir Unveiled In-Reply-To: References: <6BD6EAF4-55D1-429A-A025-A586FEDBE71C@sarai.net><5F8FF454105246D7BEAFFA692B230F58@tara><1398950854-1286514658-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1293743207-@bda008.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <1869763892-1286553699-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2133817239-@bda008.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> Dear Inder, I think this debate is changing its course and heading towards a situation that has no bearing to the origin. I am perfectly OK with this as any K discourse is bound to be as full of complexities as abound in original problem. I agree with your assertion regarding GOI also being responsible for the K mess. I don't think we should be debating on an already accepted fact. I also don't know of any significant KP who has ever defended GOI. I have never accepted any contention of putting the blame on Pakistan lest it might be seen as an attempt to exonerate GOI. One of the commonly accepted myths by the supporters of Kashmiri nationalism, which is deliberately articulated by the Kashmiri separatists is that any KP group which vocally opposes their discourse is an agent of Indian home ministry. It can't be denied that any KP group that articulates the geopolitical aspirations of KP's unwittingly extends support to Indian state by default. These groups are aware about this dilemma but go on playing the game for the sake of Indian nation. And therein lies the perceptional difference between the likes of you and ilk of me. We make a clear distinction between the state and the nation. I suspect your apathy towards the state influences your judgment on the nation. I hold Sarte in great esteem for being so profuse with his opinions many of which proved to be prophetic. But, I will not permit myself to conclude his Algeria opinion to be a rule with which to shape the future geography of world in general and Kashmir in particular. My assertion is based upon the totally dissimilar nature of the conflicts. I am also not inclined to accept the concept of individual communities aspiring for being independent nations. It is disastrous preposition with utterly chaotic implication. But if ultimately we reach that situation then most of the people will like to cross the river once they reach the bridge. I find it amusing to try shaping your present geography in anticipation of something which we assume will happen in future. No body kills a new born because eventually death will knock at his doors. I am also a no fan of American foreign policies but to blame them for rise of Islamic fundamentalism in Kashmir is, perhaps, a weird suggestion. It is also a ploy to bail out the sinister designs of those fanatics without whom the world would have been a shade better place to live. I am sorry I will be in Jammu for next two days where I will have no access to internet as data services are not permitted on hand held devises there. Regards, Kamal Hak Sent from BlackBerry® on Airtel -----Original Message----- From: Inder Salim Sender: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 16:06:18 To: reader-list Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: Kashmir Unveiled I "But I firmly refuse to exonerate both Tamil leadership in Sri Lanka and KM leadership in Kashmir for leading the gullible masses on a path of misery and suffering." Dear Kamal ji can i add Delhi leadership to ur above statment ? Further, I also firmly beleive, that corrupt and insensitive leadership in New Delhi has played a cruel but silent role in exodus of KPs from kashmir. Further they repeatedly turn blind eye to fix the noted killers in Kashmir. One glaring example is Bitta Karate. It is the Govt of India which a different game plan , and you will only look naive if you exonrate GOI at every debate which involves justice for all those who suffered during these 20 years. Quite a difficult task for you. I gave an example of Haryana to understand how every other community, small or big, are inwardly waiting for a jsut freedom which is sometimes take advante of faulty paper work and become explicitly assertive and therefore more visible as we see in Kashmir. I dont see anything wrong if communites build up a dream to imagine a free country for themselves. There are many examples like that even in Europe, and belive me, it is a matter of time before they start asking for their rights. Haryana got freedom from Punjab and they celebrate it. I dont think you disapprove that. But your consolation is that they remain within the Indian union. But who knows about future. Who dreamt the sudden collapse of USSR. there are many examples in the world where boarders keep on changing, what is so big about it. I gave an example of Sartre with regard to French occupation of Algeria. He was isolated by French intellgentia at that time, but times proved him right. If French had unwisely continued to occupy Algeria, no wonder that sucide bomboers and stone pleters would have mushroomed there. you have not touched the point when i said that how America is implict in the the destruction of Bamiyan Buddha. That was to explain if Kashmir and Afghanistan is under the grip of Islamic fundamalists forces , but who is responsible ? So, you have exonerate many decent looking polititicians and countries to fix responsiblites on the leadership of these troubled areas. love is On 10/8/10, kamalhak at gmail.com wrote: > Dear Inder, > Don't you think you are mixing the societal ambitions of communities with pan national aspirations of people whose perceptions are dictated by supposedly discriminatory policies of the state. You have introduced a new paradigm to whole debate by equating linguistic aspirations of Haryana with faith based discourse of Kashmiris. This could be interesting in presence of any genuine credence. I am not aware of any mass scale exodus of Panjabi speaking people in the aftermath of the division of erstwhile state. To the contrary Kashmir has been witness to the worst displacement of people forced into exodus in anticipation of a totalitarian dispensation. Now please don't bring in Jagmohan into this. > > I don't approve of what Srilanka did in its northern parts. Perhaps, India could have managed the turmoil in Kashmir more sensibly. But I firmly refuse to exonerate both Tamil leadership in Sri Lanka and KM leadership in Kashmir for leading the gullible masses on a path of misery and suffering. > > Regards, > > Kamal Hak > Sent from BlackBerry® on Airtel > > -----Original Message----- > From: Inder Salim > Sender: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net > Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 00:34:32 > To: reader-list > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: Kashmir Unveiled > > Dear Tara Prakash /all > > I really value ur comments, always. > "Now it is not a secret that all the kashmiris want Azadi." > > I am John Nobody in Kashmir or outside Kashmir to give a verdict on > Kashmir on any other issue, of which i am not directly a part. I draw > inferences from day to day and events, and from a historicity that has > confined it to a singularity which refuses to budge beyond that > predictable position: the status quo. > > Strangely i see people of Kashmir building an opinion which is not > musical to the ears of Govt of India or to those who rule them by > default. Today's comments J&K CM points to the fact that people are > forcing their view point even on those who look very obstinate to > understand the ground reality. FB is a little reflection of that > reality. > > So, in that sense, you are right, har shaq par ulloo baitha hai ( > there is owl on every twig ), but that is how one can see it. What is > other perspective. Please reflect upon. > > " Sadly, people like you are abused as leftists." Am i then a rightist ? > > In my post to this thread, there is no such pointer which speaks about > my leftists mind or otherwise. Well, i reiterate the fact that if > there is a move to replace SAS Geelani as the actual sher-i-Kashmir > instead of Sheikh Mohd Abdullah, it is because New Delhi failed to > understand Sheikh who was openly against Jinnah and Pakistan Merger, > and the entire valley was behind him. Whom do you blame for the > Islamization of Kashmir. I see India directly, like i see America the > actual force behind demolition of Bamiyan Bhdddhas. Sheikh was keen to > implement Kashmiri language but had to link kashmir with Jammu and > Ladakh, so Urdu as link language, The language i hate to listen in > Kashmir spoken by Kashmiris, otherwise so musical in Delhi. > > Geelani has nothing to match qualities of Sheikh, but Home Minister > Chidhambaram sahib is right now knocking his door for an appointment. > on the other hand Sheikh was humiliated by a long long imprisonment, > why ? How do you interpret it. India is desperate for some resumtion > of dialogue but it is the people who offset it now. SAS > Geelani?Huriyat can sell people of Kashmir for pea nuts, much badly > than Sheikh did later, and they know it in thier hearts, but what is > the alternative? > > To say that there is no Kashmir issue will be saying there is a > boarder between Pakistan and India, which is not true. > > Well, that is that, i come to another perspective. Imagine JP Sartre , > the known Leftist philosopher writer,as Indian and living in Delhi, > and writing on Kashmir. My idea is that he would take a position > similar to what he took with regard to French Occupation of Algeria. > Times proved him right. He perhaps, never visited free Algeria, > perhaps, because he would never be able to sleep with as many women as > he did and would still be able to hold Simone De's tender hand for a > daily cup of coffee. So, it is not necessary where one lives, but what > thinks of the other, that is important for me. Kashmiris need this to > understand themselves and also will let us understand ourselves beyond > dull nationalistic irrespective. > > > Dear Kamal ji > I know there are huge majority of Muslims in Kashmir who really dont > like Kashmir's merger with Pakistan, but everybody understands how > India happened to occupy Kashmir. And tell me who does not like > independence. Do you know there is a Haryana day which is a holiday in > Haryana. It is the day when Haryana got freedom from Punjab. They were > taken for a ride by assertive punjabis. Dont tell Himachalis what > Punjabis do when it comes to exploitation. So, if tomorrow Hyayana > gets a chance to become independent country and control its water and > other resources, you will see a overwhelming support for it. well, > this is true about any country. Any ethnic population who are rich > dont want to share their resources for nothing. and any other > community within a country who feel opressed rebel against the > core/ruler. > > The case of Sri Lanaka is a typical one here. Tamils were truly denied > to represent themselves in a Sinhalese dominated country. They > rebelled and where ruthlessness killed. but is that ethical? > > So, if India wants to continue killing rebel kashmiris, be it so. > > both you and me will only see it from a distance. > > love > is > > > > > > . > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 9:11 PM, TaraPrakash wrote: > > Dear Inder. > > "Now it is not a secret that all the kashmiris want Azadi." IN other words > > those who don't want it are not Kashmiris? The other day you said you had > > problem with Gandhi's take on controling desire. Tagore ahd another problem > > with Gandhi, he would very often sound less rational and more emotional. The > > India came in to existence in 1947 could neither make Gandhi happy, nor it > > would Tagore. What was true for India at that time is more true for the > > would-be Somalia. > > > > Bas ek hi ulloo kaafi hai > > Bardad gulistan karne ko > > Har shaakh pe ulloo baitha hai > > Anjam-e gulistan kya hoga? > > > > Those Kashmiris who don't want to be mislead by a hollow sweet nothing > > called "azadi," may be in minority or probably in majority. In either case > > they can't be ignored. > > > > There is used to be a revolutionary left that used to be in favor of a > > globalization of the masses. People like you who are in support of drawing > > another artificial line between suffering masses are doing a great service > > to capitalist forces. Sadly, people like you are abused as leftists. Keep > > practising with your stones, the skill will be useful when you will declare > > a woman adulterous and stone her to death. > > > > Scaring children and parents who want to attend schools with the stones must > > be giving good practise to the future soldiers of Kashmir and today's > > misleaders of youth. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Inder Salim" > > To: "reader-list" > > Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2010 6:30 AM > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: Kashmir Unveiled > > > > > >> Dear Pawan ji > >> > >> Recently Gowhar, my friend, quoted Ghalib on his FB wall. " during my > >> adolescent age, when i picked up a stone to hurl at Mujnoon ( lover ), > >> I thought of my own head. " Gowhar is one of the Kashmiris who hppens > >> to be an ardent supporter of Azadi, but he is not for throwing stones, > >> and wants children to resume classes. True, there are many who think > >> of Violence as an effective tool to acheive their goal, but he knows > >> where to draw the line. > >> > >> There will be no stones at the IHC tomorrow, let alone stone > >> pelting. Kalpana Tikku is showcasing the the recent happenings through > >> images by Kashmiris themselves. There is no hidden agenda. Now it is > >> not a secret that all the kashmiris want Azadi. Govt of India is > >> actually hiding many skeltones in cupboards which all the courageous > >> citizens need to unravel. > >> > >> There will be open discussion at 7 pm as she mentioned in her > >> programme. and if you have time, please join, But if groups like RIK > >> come only to disrupt the smooth exchange of ideas then it would be > >> unfortunate. > >> > >> i understand why you approve any disruption at anything connected to > >> Kashmir. as it happened at Jantar Mantar protest organzied by Kalpana > >> Tikku again. But as an intellegent thinking person, please think its > >> why ? > >> > >> You want Kashmir to remain part of India, a democratic secular and > >> socalist India. right, but is India so ? If India was demoractic in > >> essense it would not impose imposters in in J&K which has ruined all > >> the peaceful forms of nogotiation. For you, that can be erased from > >> memory of our collective history, but you need to understand that if > >> KPs are homeless it is becasue of that policy, that lust for power > >> since 1947. > >> > >> Well, the time has come when the root cause of Kashmir problem is > >> talked about very sincerely. As i said ealier, it is between People > >> and Kashmir and Govt of India. If you dont recognize that core of the > >> Kashmri problem, you are automatically not interested to discuss it in > >> the first place. Even Govt of India will not invite you to sit at the > >> table for any dialogue on Kashmir if you dont enter the fray > >> democratically. > >> > >> Right now, it looks if agenda of yours is to disrupte, then be it so. > >> > >> But dont forget, your own exodus from Kashmir is because there were > >> always elements who were encouraged to disrupte the peaceful process > >> of dialogue. That is our history. the question is : how long we live > >> with that formula , which bleeds reasoning endlessly. > >> > >> with love > >> inder salim > >> > >> > >> Traces of fascism are inside all of us, Love is only the drug which cures > >> it. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On 10/7/10, Pawan Durani wrote: > >>> > >>> Shuddha , > >>> > >>> Endanger ! Did you say so ? What made you think so . Perhaps the same > >>> mind who justifies stone pelting. > >>> > >>> Why cant it be , as i thought , the political gameplan behind this show ? > >>> > >>> I am sorry , you have a very bad understanding of words , humanity and > >>> history . And it is showing off . > >>> > >>> Be blessed ...... > >>> > >>> Hum Kya Chahteeeeeeeeee .........AaaaahJaaaaahDeeeeeeeeh > >>> > >>> Pawan > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On 10/6/10, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > >>> > I suppose that translates as "If I let the secret out, then who knows > >>> > what will happen at the gathering" > >>> > > >>> > What, Pawan, is the 'secret' that you are privy to, that can endanger > >>> > this gathering? > >>> > > >>> > Or, as always, are you going to be a sleazy purveyor of innuendo? > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > On 06-Oct-10, at 5:46 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > >>> > > >>> >> Raaz ki baaat keh doon to Jaane mehfil main phir kya ho.... > >>> >> > >>> >> On 10/6/10, Inder Salim wrote: > >>> >>> Dear ......., > >>> >>> > >>> >>> > >>> >>> Arnimaal is a Non Profit Organization based in New Delhi, founded by > >>> >>> Ms. Kalpana Tikku. As a small step towards peace building, along with > >>> >>> the idea to stop further alienation of the Valley and its > >>> >>> inhabitants, > >>> >>> we propose to hold a Photo Exhibition cum Discussion on the moods of > >>> >>> the Valley. As we all know that while Kashmir has been going through > >>> >>> one of the worst turmoils ever, the common man on the streets of the > >>> >>> valley is suffering. We intend to present the real picture of the > >>> >>> Valley through this visual medium where audiences will get > >>> >>> enlightened > >>> >>> with the realities on ground. And through that we intend to make the > >>> >>> Indian Civil Societies understand what Kashmir is going through and > >>> >>> what their lives mean to them in the present circumstances. We have > >>> >>> Invited Photographers from across the world to participate, who have > >>> >>> worked in Kashmir in the last twenty years. The Exhibition will be > >>> >>> followed by an interactive session on the current situation in the > >>> >>> valley, where we will have four distinguished guests as Speakers.This > >>> >>> will be thrown open to the audience later. > >>> >>> Let us have a second look at the beauty of this HEAVEN ON EARTH > >>> >>> through the images captured by the lens during these last few months, > >>> >>> or even from earlier troubled phases.. These images, we plan to > >>> >>> exhibit in a very creative way, enabling the ‘freedom of expression’, > >>> >>> here in vogue, to meet the voices of ‘the other’ in a very > >>> >>> contemporary aesthetic way. Photography by nature is spiritual, > >>> >>> considering it comes from the darkness to show the light. It is more > >>> >>> than a medium for factual communication of ideas. It is about > >>> >>> depth of > >>> >>> feeling, not depth of field.. Human expressions are so diverse, so > >>> >>> many, that no words are required to do them justice. This exhibition > >>> >>> is a tribute to those, who have suffered the effects of the conflict, > >>> >>> in one way or other. We request you to be a part of this amazing > >>> >>> journey into the entire gamut of human emotions as seen through the > >>> >>> lens, and help us in our endeavor towards a good cause, not just as > >>> >>> responsible citizens, but primarily as Good Humans. > >>> >>> Our invitees for the exhibition include the National Media (print as > >>> >>> well as electronic), prominent members of Civil societies, Social > >>> >>> Activists, Corporates, Photographers, Journalists, Artists, Art > >>> >>> critics, Art Lovers, Cultural Attaches. > >>> >>> The date for the exhibition is the 8th of Oct, 2010 , Timings 3 p.m > >>> >>> onwards at India Habitat Centre, Lodhi Road. > >>> >>> The timings for open discussion are 7 pm onwards. Speakers are Seema > >>> >>> Mustafa, Najeeb Mubarki, Amitabh Mattoo, Vrinda Grover and Gautam > >>> >>> Navlakha. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> Looking forward to having you amongst us . > >>> >>> Thanking you, > >>> >>> Warm Regards, > >>> >>> Kalpana tikku. > >>> >>> _________________________________________ > >>> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>> >>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>> >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>> >>> subscribe > >>> >>> in the subject header. > >>> >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>> >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >>> >> _________________________________________ > >>> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>> >> Critiques & Collaborations > >>> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>> >> subscribe in the subject header. > >>> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >>> > > >>> > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > >>> > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > >>> > Raqs Media Collective > >>> > shuddha at sarai.net > >>> > www.sarai.net > >>> > www.raqsmediacollective.net > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> > >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From aliens at dataone.in Fri Oct 8 22:23:14 2010 From: aliens at dataone.in (Bipin Trivedi) Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2010 22:23:14 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] PSEUDO SECULARISTS NOW OPPOSING AYODHYA JUDGEMENT In-Reply-To: References: <002101cb65d2$9fe9ac60$dfbd0520$@in> <001c01cb6637$2261a490$6724edb0$@in> Message-ID: <000401cb6709$4dafe210$e90fa630$@in> Dear Javed, Criticisms are always welcome, but there should be some logic behind it. Criticism without any evidence just for their bias belief cannot be acceptable. Those opposing does not came forward with any kind of logical evidence. There was lot of arguments, proof produced by the other party in the court but could not able to convince the panel of judges and so their evidence was weak and could not withstand. No one can prove historical events since you will not find any witness. But, still history exists, historical events exist and effects present also. People living today has never seen historical personalities/events/monuments but feel/heard it from their ancestors and this chain of ancestors itself becomes one kind of proof and here the faith comes into existence. Not a single witness today for existence of Ram/Krishna/Paygamber/Ishu. Many believe that they are myth then also millions of people have faith in them and with their inspiration one want to live their life, nothing wrong in it. Thanks Bipin Trivedi -----Original Message----- From: Javed [mailto:javedmasoo at gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2010 10:36 PM To: Bipin Trivedi Cc: sarai-list Subject: Re: [Reader-list] PSEUDO SECULARISTS NOW OPPOSING AYODHYA JUDGEMENT Dear Bipin I cannot prove anything about history that old. No body can. Show me one single historian who can be 100% sure about anything that happened before his/her lifetime. Yes, but we can probably be sure about the history that is happening in our lives. Such as the demolition of the Babari mosque - yes I can prove who did that on which date. By the way, in one sentense you are saying ASI uses scientific and universally approved formula - then another sentence you say their method uses "faith of the millions of people". Sorry that's not a scientific method. All scientific discoveries have to be vetted by other scientists before they can become theories. So if some scientists are systematically criticizing the theories of ASI, why are you scared of criticism, and why do you have to label them commies and pseudos etc.? Javed On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 9:18 PM, Bipin Trivedi wrote: > Dear Javed, > > I am not saying this, this is the general excavation law comes in the study > of history. You ask any history student or historian. The things found > bellow 20 ft. does not prove it as old as 1500 years, but there is > systematic and scientific method to derive its age. Formula to derive the > age is purely scientific and universally approved method. > > Are you sure that devanagri lipi was not used before 2000 years? Can you > prove it? There is no way to prove whether it is used at that time or not, > but age of the stone found on which this lipi carved was of that time. They > were not sure about birth place of Rama, but ASI findings leads to this > belief of course along with millions of people faith. > > There are so many historical personalities whose date/place of birth is > unknown and here only faith comes into existence. > > Thanks > Bipin Trivedi > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Javed [mailto:javedmasoo at gmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2010 6:52 PM > To: Bipin Trivedi > Cc: sarai-list; Patrice Riemens > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] PSEUDO SECULARISTS NOW OPPOSING AYODHYA JUDGEMENT > > Dear Bipin > You may call me a pseudo-secularist or a Muslim fundamentalist. But I > have a few queries based on your message: > > - You say that "land bellow 1 ft means about 100 years. So, the things > found bellow 20 ft... is at least 1500 to 2000 years old." Is that > really from a history/archeology textbook? If someone dug a 10 feet > pit 50 years ago and left some bricks or other material would we > consider it a 1000 years old material? > > - You mentioned that "at 20 ft they found stone showing name of Hindu > goddess in devnagri lipi". Accoring to your estimate, 20 feet must be > 2000 years old. But was devanagri lipi already in use 2000 years ago? > That is really some news. According to my humble information, Nagari > lipi are first attested from the 8th century AD only. > > - the high court judgment says that they are not sure if Babur > actually built the mosque - they only concur it because of > circumstantial evidences. Also they are not sure about the date of the > mosque construction. But its amazing that they are hundred percent > sure of the exact place of lord Rama's birth (which predates the > mosque's construction by centuries). How did they reach that > conclusion? > > - Do you know the exact date/year/era of lord Rama's birth? > > Thanks, and it would be good if you could provide answers to some of > these queries. > > Javed > > > > On 10/7/10, Bipin Trivedi wrote: >> >> Siddharth Varadarajan article >> http://www.hindu.com/2010/10/01/stories/2010100163711400.htm in > Hindu,Romila >> Thapar, PUDR surprises me when they writes Ayodhya judgment based on faith >> only. >> >> I think most of them even not read the judgment properly before writing >> their views. This judgment was after marathon exercise of referring about >> 274 books thoroughly, 798 past judgments, documents presented by both the >> parties and various ancient mythological books. As they argue, judgment is >> not only based on faith but mainly based on 574 pages ASI report. ASI is > not >> an ordinary organization but credible historical survey organization and >> there is no reason to doubt its credibility. It is surprising that reason >> given by Varadarajan to doubt the ASI report that it was conducted on 2003 >> during NDA rule. Exactly pseudo secular type belief. >> >> However if you don't consider this, but earlier also ASI took this study >> between 1975 to 1985 under Historian B B Lal (under congress rule!) and >> declared in 1990 that he found even bigger monumental existence in the > past >> bellow the present Babri Mosque. He also found at that time line of > pillars >> (stambh) on digging just 4 meter away from mosque. >> >> Not only this in July 1992, retired director of ASI Y D Sharma and K M >> Shrivastav along with 6 other historians carried out search at Ramcoat > where >> mosque was there. They also found the traces of big temple there. Even it >> was noticed by historian that some pillars used to built mosque was > pillars >> of temple and never found such type of pillars in any other mosques. >> >> They have found one Shilalekh also. But, communist historian made > allegation >> that it was stolen from Lucknow museum. However, the curator of museum >> denied about any such theft from museum in press conference. He has shown >> shilalekh in the museum to the press people and proved that both the >> shilalekh are different. However, at that time Arjunsingh (key pseudo >> secularist. He took many steps just to appease minority but averted by SC > in >> few cases) was union minister stopped the research immediately and took >> custody of all the relevant documents and probably destroyed. Else traces > of >> temple would have been proved earlier only. >> >> Main points of ASI reports are as under. >> 1. Found the traces of big temple just below the 3 gumbaj of mosque. >> 2. Found stone shilps of lotus, kaustubh, mani (pearl) and goddess > embedded >> on the wall. >> 3. Found stone bellow 20 ft showing name of Hindu goddess in devnagri lipi >> 4. Found black pillars of bird shape. >> 5. Pair of 30 pillars (30+30) line found in north-south direction. >> 6. Found round and other shaped bricks which were used in India only. >> 7. Found round stones kept on the top of the temple or shikhar. >> 8. History students can easily understand that land bellow 1 ft means > about >> 100 years. So, the things found bellow 20 ft concludes that the material >> found is at least 1500 to 2000 years old. While, Babar entered in India > just >> before about 500 years. >> >> These are just few things mentioned. The report is full of 574 pages > proves >> many more things. So, the learned judges (includes Mr. S U Khan also) > after >> going through such solid report/proof gave correct judgment. However, if >> they would have gone other way of judgment would be suspicious actually. >> >> Thanks >> Bipin Trivedi >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe >> in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > From anivar.aravind at gmail.com Sat Oct 9 11:31:41 2010 From: anivar.aravind at gmail.com (Anivar Aravind) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2010 11:31:41 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] CALL for Entries: ViBGYOR International Short & Documentary Festival 2011 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Friends, can you circulate this call to your network? *ViBGYOR 2011: CALL for Entries* http://vibgyorfilm.org/2011/callforentries* * Welcome to the 6th Edition of ViBGYOR International Film Festival for Short & Documentary films, to be held in Thrissur, Kerala, India from January 12-16, 2011! The 6th ViBGYOR is dedicated to the memory of late C. Saratchandran, the noted filmmaker and activist and our friend and co-traveler at ViBGYOR. Accordingly we have chosen ‘*Political Filmmaking and Media Activism in South Asia’* as the special focus theme of the year. Anand Padvardhan is the festival Director for 2011 VIBGYOR. ViBGYOR Screens around 100 films at the festival. If you or a friend wishes to send a recent film/s (Documentaries/Short Fiction/Animations/ Music Videos/Spots) to ViBGYOR, we shall gladly include them in the *PREVIEW* for preliminary selection. An eminent panel of Jury will select the final set of films to be screened at the Festival. The last date for film submissions is *November 15th, 2010 *(postmarked). Download Entry Forms from http://vibgyorfilm.org/system/files/entryform2011.pdf . Don’t forget to include all required documents/material (duly filled Entry Form, Synopsis, production details, stills form the film etc) as hard copy or preferably as soft copy on a separate CD. You can also email to us these details and stills as well, but ensure that you comply with standrard file formats and resolution requirements. Send queries to vibgyorfilmfest at gmail.com or contact ViBGYOR Film Collective directly: *+919809477058/ +91 487-2323590 * 1. There is no Entry Fee. Last date of film submission: November 15th , 2010. To address possible technical glitches during screening we advise you to send 2 DVD copies of your film/s 2. Address the film packet to ViBGYOR, 2nd Floor Kalliath Square, Palace Road, Thrissur, Kerala, India 680 020, Tel. +91-487-2323590/+919809477058 *.* Send film synopsis, film stills, director’s photograph and production details as soft copy (CD) or email them to vibgyorfilmfest at gmail.com 3. All selected films will receive a Certificate of Participation. ViBGYOR is a non-competitive Film Festival, so thre are no Awards. However we might award filmmaking *Fellowships* to deserving young filmmakers as per the recommendations of the Selection Jury. 4. All selected filmmakers are invited to attend the festival and are assured of local hospitality. (ViBGYOR is not in a position to pay for travel expenses). 5. With your presumed permission, we might inlude Selected/Non-selected films in the *ViBGYOR Touring Festival* conducted in schools, colleges and villages and small towns in Kerala and elsewhere. 6. For detailed information, please log on to www.vibgyorfilm.org *ViBGYOR International Film Festival: Profile* ViBGYOR International Film Festival, Thrissur, Kerala is a celebration of human spirit, expressed through the medium of cinema, with its inherent nobility and diversity. It covers the living experience of millions of people across the globe, witnessed and retold in the form of documentary and short fiction films, by a number of skilled and committed filmmakers from across the world. The films which talk about the struggles of people for existence and for basic human rights find the right audience here. The five-day Film festival is not only a treat of brilliant films, but also an invaluable platform for an interface with filmmakers, activists, leaders of people’s movements, academicians, students and common people from diverse streams of life. >From its beginning in 2006, ViBGYOR has taken a different path, by bringing films and filmmakers to places where ordinary people live, to people who do not have a camera or a canvas to bring their stories to light. The series of Mini festivals organized as Outreach Programmes--the *Village ViBGYOR*conducted in panchayats and *Campus ViBGYOR* in educational institutions--culminate in the Annual Festival in Thrissur town. The resonances of the annual festival are then effectively carried forward throughout the year with a series of *ViBGYOR Touring Festivals*, taken around the country. In the first year the Focus theme of ViBGYOR Festival was *Water.* In the second year it was *Earth*, in the third year *Energy,* and in the fourth edition* Food Sovereignty*. For the 5th Edition of ViBGYOR in 2010, we had chosen *South Asia: Democracy-Justice-Peace* as the focus theme. This `South Asia’ theme will continue for the next three years and will reflect in the anchoring of the Film Packages, South Asia Conference, Open Forum discussions, Mini Conferences, Workshops, Campaigns and the Farm & Food Fair. As the 6th Edition of ViBGYOR is dedicated to the memory of late C. Saratchandran, the noted filmmaker and activist and our friend and co-traveler at ViBGYOR, we have chosen *‘Political Filmmaking and Media Activism in South Asia’ *as the special focus theme of the year. Anand Padvardhan, noted documentary filmmaker is the Festival Director for 2011 VIBGYOR. Warmly, *Mustafa Desamangalam*, Exe. Director, ViBGYOR-2011 (+91 9447743040), Benny Benedict, Secretary, ViBGYOR Film Collective (+91 9447000830), Seena Panoli, Joint Secretary, ViBGYOR Film Collective (9447546417) -- Anivar Aravind Moving Republic From indersalim at gmail.com Sat Oct 9 20:44:36 2010 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2010 20:44:36 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Ayodhya case should be decided with technology, Message-ID: http://www.fakingnews.com/2010/10/ayodhya-case-should-be-decided-with-technology-claim-cricket-fans/ Mohali. Following the Allahabad HC judgment on the Ayodhya case last week, many commentators and critics have put forward their own alternative dispute resolution procedures. Now cricket fans of India, arguably the largest active group in the country, have proposed that the future of the Ram Janmbhoomi Babri Masjid site in Ayodhya should be settled using modern technology. The claim comes after Rahul Dravid said that technology should be used wherever possible to make umpiring decisions more accurate. Cricket fans have found much support amongst statisticians and computer geeks. However, this bizarre alliance disagrees on how exactly a computer should be used to settle the dispute. AOE 3 - Asian dynasties Sources suggest that Microsoft is secretly developing “Age Of Empires – Ayodhya edition” “The law of the jungle rule,” said “Darklord13″, an online gamer from from Meerut, know as Manesh,14, to his Mum, “we just fire up ‘Civilization’ on a top-notch PC and watch the Hindu right and the Islamic extremists battle it out. Maximum carnage. Let the superior side win.” But Manesh is no advocate of violence. He was quick to point out that he runs away from most fights with “bigger boys” and doesn’t like “rough sports” much. Statisticians disagree. A mathematical model is needed to determine the most “efficient” and “statistically significant” solution, claims Delhi-based number-cruncher Ravinder Kunwar. “My preliminary model allocated 46.7453% of the land to Muslims at a confidence level of 95%,” he stated, confirming that his model factors out such variables as “agitation”, “veiled threats of violence”, “stalling”, “delaying”, “rabble rousing”, “half truths” and “downright lies”. Critics in the judiciary have been quick to point out that last month Mr Kumar claimed that the solution to the Kashmir conflict was “12.6″, which has not yet been of much use. But cricket fans have different ideas for technological intervention. They are claiming that all the judges need to make the correct decision is a “slow motion” replay of the events and “hawk-eye” to determine if the mosque would have fallen down anyway without Hindu nationalist intervention. “The decision should not really need to be made,” said Shiv Mehta, a cricket fan, “but neither side are ‘walkers’, they won’t leave the crease if they know they’ve been caught out, rather they’re waiting for the umpire to decide, it’s just not cricket.” The “technological solution” has received the backing of some academics. Dr Martin Fisher, visiting Professor at JNU told Faking News, “The use of technology in the judiciary means that verdicts can be made faster. A computer could decide the Ayodhya case in less than 0.10 seconds. Many more appeals would be possible because, given some time for modifications to the model, there would be time for around 10,000 verdicts per hour.” With both sides in a constant state of celebrating and appealing there would be little time for communal violence, Professor Fisher claimed. If one side is not happy with the programme, it could simply be “switched off and on again”, he added. However, both sides in the dispute are against use of any technology. Hindu nationalists claim the computer plan is an “Islamic conspiracy” and that the computer used would undoubtedly be a US machine brought to India via “hard drive washing” programming at the ISI. Likewise, Islamists contend that the machine would be an “Infosys Hindu computer from Bangalore” complete with Ganesha mouse mat and tikka (disguised as a webcam). Faking News contacted Infosys regarding the religion of their software, but we were told that they “hadn’t really thought about it”. Despite much popular support, it is unlikely that the Government will use computers to deal with the Babri Masjid case, despite initial enthusiasm. “We like the idea,” said an unnamed Government minister, “computers are much easier to deal with than judges and they don’t need big houses, multiple cars and places to hide their assets.” But with all the money being spent on the CWG (now a success), there is little to invest in such a scheme. “We’re operating on loose change at the moment,” said the minister, “maybe we could just toss a coin instead.” -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From yasir.media at gmail.com Sun Oct 10 00:19:29 2010 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?IHlhc2lyIH7ZitinINiz2LE=?=) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2010 23:49:29 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] PSEUDO SECULARISTS NOW OPPOSING AYODHYA JUDGEMENT In-Reply-To: <000401cb6709$4dafe210$e90fa630$@in> References: <002101cb65d2$9fe9ac60$dfbd0520$@in> <001c01cb6637$2261a490$6724edb0$@in> <000401cb6709$4dafe210$e90fa630$@in> Message-ID: It is also customary for judges to decide considering 'public opinion', in this case the highly politicised public opinion of the dominating majority. Its how they eventually balance the evidence, lack of it, and how the court wants its judgement to be received, what consequences it wants to see, these are also part of the judgement. a judgement may or may not be truth. Its where one stands and makes a call. btw is there a detailed judgement yet. and are there any dissenting judges. how does that work in India. best On Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 9:53 PM, Bipin Trivedi wrote: > Dear Javed, > > Criticisms are always welcome, but there should be some logic behind it. > Criticism without any evidence just for their bias belief cannot be > acceptable. Those opposing does not came forward with any kind of logical > evidence. There was lot of arguments, proof produced by the other party in > the court but could not able to convince the panel of judges and so their > evidence was weak and could not withstand. > > No one can prove historical events since you will not find any witness. > But, > still history exists, historical events exist and effects present also. > People living today has never seen historical > personalities/events/monuments > but feel/heard it from their ancestors and this chain of ancestors itself > becomes one kind of proof and here the faith comes into existence. > > Not a single witness today for existence of Ram/Krishna/Paygamber/Ishu. > Many > believe that they are myth then also millions of people have faith in them > and with their inspiration one want to live their life, nothing wrong in > it. > > Thanks > Bipin Trivedi > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Javed [mailto:javedmasoo at gmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2010 10:36 PM > To: Bipin Trivedi > Cc: sarai-list > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] PSEUDO SECULARISTS NOW OPPOSING AYODHYA > JUDGEMENT > > Dear Bipin > I cannot prove anything about history that old. No body can. Show me > one single historian who can be 100% sure about anything that happened > before his/her lifetime. Yes, but we can probably be sure about the > history that is happening in our lives. Such as the demolition of the > Babari mosque - yes I can prove who did that on which date. > > By the way, in one sentense you are saying ASI uses scientific and > universally approved formula - then another sentence you say their > method uses "faith of the millions of people". Sorry that's not a > scientific method. All scientific discoveries have to be vetted by > other scientists before they can become theories. So if some > scientists are systematically criticizing the theories of ASI, why are > you scared of criticism, and why do you have to label them commies and > pseudos etc.? > > Javed > > > > On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 9:18 PM, Bipin Trivedi wrote: > > Dear Javed, > > > > I am not saying this, this is the general excavation law comes in the > study > > of history. You ask any history student or historian. The things found > > bellow 20 ft. does not prove it as old as 1500 years, but there is > > systematic and scientific method to derive its age. Formula to derive the > > age is purely scientific and universally approved method. > > > > Are you sure that devanagri lipi was not used before 2000 years? Can you > > prove it? There is no way to prove whether it is used at that time or > not, > > but age of the stone found on which this lipi carved was of that time. > They > > were not sure about birth place of Rama, but ASI findings leads to this > > belief of course along with millions of people faith. > > > > There are so many historical personalities whose date/place of birth is > > unknown and here only faith comes into existence. > > > > Thanks > > Bipin Trivedi > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Javed [mailto:javedmasoo at gmail.com] > > Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2010 6:52 PM > > To: Bipin Trivedi > > Cc: sarai-list; Patrice Riemens > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] PSEUDO SECULARISTS NOW OPPOSING AYODHYA > JUDGEMENT > > > > Dear Bipin > > You may call me a pseudo-secularist or a Muslim fundamentalist. But I > > have a few queries based on your message: > > > > - You say that "land bellow 1 ft means about 100 years. So, the things > > found bellow 20 ft... is at least 1500 to 2000 years old." Is that > > really from a history/archeology textbook? If someone dug a 10 feet > > pit 50 years ago and left some bricks or other material would we > > consider it a 1000 years old material? > > > > - You mentioned that "at 20 ft they found stone showing name of Hindu > > goddess in devnagri lipi". Accoring to your estimate, 20 feet must be > > 2000 years old. But was devanagri lipi already in use 2000 years ago? > > That is really some news. According to my humble information, Nagari > > lipi are first attested from the 8th century AD only. > > > > - the high court judgment says that they are not sure if Babur > > actually built the mosque - they only concur it because of > > circumstantial evidences. Also they are not sure about the date of the > > mosque construction. But its amazing that they are hundred percent > > sure of the exact place of lord Rama's birth (which predates the > > mosque's construction by centuries). How did they reach that > > conclusion? > > > > - Do you know the exact date/year/era of lord Rama's birth? > > > > Thanks, and it would be good if you could provide answers to some of > > these queries. > > > > Javed > > > > > > > > On 10/7/10, Bipin Trivedi wrote: > >> > >> Siddharth Varadarajan article > >> http://www.hindu.com/2010/10/01/stories/2010100163711400.htm in > > Hindu,Romila > >> Thapar, PUDR surprises me when they writes Ayodhya judgment based on > faith > >> only. > >> > >> I think most of them even not read the judgment properly before writing > >> their views. This judgment was after marathon exercise of referring > about > >> 274 books thoroughly, 798 past judgments, documents presented by both > the > >> parties and various ancient mythological books. As they argue, judgment > is > >> not only based on faith but mainly based on 574 pages ASI report. ASI is > > not > >> an ordinary organization but credible historical survey organization and > >> there is no reason to doubt its credibility. It is surprising that > reason > >> given by Varadarajan to doubt the ASI report that it was conducted on > 2003 > >> during NDA rule. Exactly pseudo secular type belief. > >> > >> However if you don't consider this, but earlier also ASI took this study > >> between 1975 to 1985 under Historian B B Lal (under congress rule!) and > >> declared in 1990 that he found even bigger monumental existence in the > > past > >> bellow the present Babri Mosque. He also found at that time line of > > pillars > >> (stambh) on digging just 4 meter away from mosque. > >> > >> Not only this in July 1992, retired director of ASI Y D Sharma and K M > >> Shrivastav along with 6 other historians carried out search at Ramcoat > > where > >> mosque was there. They also found the traces of big temple there. Even > it > >> was noticed by historian that some pillars used to built mosque was > > pillars > >> of temple and never found such type of pillars in any other mosques. > >> > >> They have found one Shilalekh also. But, communist historian made > > allegation > >> that it was stolen from Lucknow museum. However, the curator of museum > >> denied about any such theft from museum in press conference. He has > shown > >> shilalekh in the museum to the press people and proved that both the > >> shilalekh are different. However, at that time Arjunsingh (key pseudo > >> secularist. He took many steps just to appease minority but averted by > SC > > in > >> few cases) was union minister stopped the research immediately and took > >> custody of all the relevant documents and probably destroyed. Else > traces > > of > >> temple would have been proved earlier only. > >> > >> Main points of ASI reports are as under. > >> 1. Found the traces of big temple just below the 3 gumbaj of mosque. > >> 2. Found stone shilps of lotus, kaustubh, mani (pearl) and goddess > > embedded > >> on the wall. > >> 3. Found stone bellow 20 ft showing name of Hindu goddess in devnagri > lipi > >> 4. Found black pillars of bird shape. > >> 5. Pair of 30 pillars (30+30) line found in north-south direction. > >> 6. Found round and other shaped bricks which were used in India only. > >> 7. Found round stones kept on the top of the temple or shikhar. > >> 8. History students can easily understand that land bellow 1 ft means > > about > >> 100 years. So, the things found bellow 20 ft concludes that the material > >> found is at least 1500 to 2000 years old. While, Babar entered in India > > just > >> before about 500 years. > >> > >> These are just few things mentioned. The report is full of 574 pages > > proves > >> many more things. So, the learned judges (includes Mr. S U Khan also) > > after > >> going through such solid report/proof gave correct judgment. However, if > >> they would have gone other way of judgment would be suspicious actually. > >> > >> Thanks > >> Bipin Trivedi > >> > >> > >> > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe > >> in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From aliens at dataone.in Sun Oct 10 09:58:15 2010 From: aliens at dataone.in (Bipin Trivedi) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 09:58:15 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] PSEUDO SECULARISTS NOW OPPOSING AYODHYA JUDGEMENT In-Reply-To: References: <002101cb65d2$9fe9ac60$dfbd0520$@in> <001c01cb6637$2261a490$6724edb0$@in> <000401cb6709$4dafe210$e90fa630$@in> Message-ID: <001201cb6833$8f2c0a40$ad841ec0$@in> You can find full detailed judgment on site: http://www.rjbm.nic.in/ First look at Pakistan legal system and its neutrality before criticizing Indian legal system and neutrality. -----Original Message----- From: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net [mailto:reader-list-bounces at sarai.net] On Behalf Of yasir ~?? ?? Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 12:19 AM To: Sarai Reader-list Subject: Re: [Reader-list] PSEUDO SECULARISTS NOW OPPOSING AYODHYA JUDGEMENT It is also customary for judges to decide considering 'public opinion', in this case the highly politicised public opinion of the dominating majority. Its how they eventually balance the evidence, lack of it, and how the court wants its judgement to be received, what consequences it wants to see, these are also part of the judgement. a judgement may or may not be truth. Its where one stands and makes a call. btw is there a detailed judgement yet. and are there any dissenting judges. how does that work in India. best On Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 9:53 PM, Bipin Trivedi wrote: > Dear Javed, > > Criticisms are always welcome, but there should be some logic behind it. > Criticism without any evidence just for their bias belief cannot be > acceptable. Those opposing does not came forward with any kind of logical > evidence. There was lot of arguments, proof produced by the other party in > the court but could not able to convince the panel of judges and so their > evidence was weak and could not withstand. > > No one can prove historical events since you will not find any witness. > But, > still history exists, historical events exist and effects present also. > People living today has never seen historical > personalities/events/monuments > but feel/heard it from their ancestors and this chain of ancestors itself > becomes one kind of proof and here the faith comes into existence. > > Not a single witness today for existence of Ram/Krishna/Paygamber/Ishu. > Many > believe that they are myth then also millions of people have faith in them > and with their inspiration one want to live their life, nothing wrong in > it. > > Thanks > Bipin Trivedi > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Javed [mailto:javedmasoo at gmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2010 10:36 PM > To: Bipin Trivedi > Cc: sarai-list > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] PSEUDO SECULARISTS NOW OPPOSING AYODHYA > JUDGEMENT > > Dear Bipin > I cannot prove anything about history that old. No body can. Show me > one single historian who can be 100% sure about anything that happened > before his/her lifetime. Yes, but we can probably be sure about the > history that is happening in our lives. Such as the demolition of the > Babari mosque - yes I can prove who did that on which date. > > By the way, in one sentense you are saying ASI uses scientific and > universally approved formula - then another sentence you say their > method uses "faith of the millions of people". Sorry that's not a > scientific method. All scientific discoveries have to be vetted by > other scientists before they can become theories. So if some > scientists are systematically criticizing the theories of ASI, why are > you scared of criticism, and why do you have to label them commies and > pseudos etc.? > > Javed > > > > On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 9:18 PM, Bipin Trivedi wrote: > > Dear Javed, > > > > I am not saying this, this is the general excavation law comes in the > study > > of history. You ask any history student or historian. The things found > > bellow 20 ft. does not prove it as old as 1500 years, but there is > > systematic and scientific method to derive its age. Formula to derive the > > age is purely scientific and universally approved method. > > > > Are you sure that devanagri lipi was not used before 2000 years? Can you > > prove it? There is no way to prove whether it is used at that time or > not, > > but age of the stone found on which this lipi carved was of that time. > They > > were not sure about birth place of Rama, but ASI findings leads to this > > belief of course along with millions of people faith. > > > > There are so many historical personalities whose date/place of birth is > > unknown and here only faith comes into existence. > > > > Thanks > > Bipin Trivedi > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Javed [mailto:javedmasoo at gmail.com] > > Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2010 6:52 PM > > To: Bipin Trivedi > > Cc: sarai-list; Patrice Riemens > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] PSEUDO SECULARISTS NOW OPPOSING AYODHYA > JUDGEMENT > > > > Dear Bipin > > You may call me a pseudo-secularist or a Muslim fundamentalist. But I > > have a few queries based on your message: > > > > - You say that "land bellow 1 ft means about 100 years. So, the things > > found bellow 20 ft... is at least 1500 to 2000 years old." Is that > > really from a history/archeology textbook? If someone dug a 10 feet > > pit 50 years ago and left some bricks or other material would we > > consider it a 1000 years old material? > > > > - You mentioned that "at 20 ft they found stone showing name of Hindu > > goddess in devnagri lipi". Accoring to your estimate, 20 feet must be > > 2000 years old. But was devanagri lipi already in use 2000 years ago? > > That is really some news. According to my humble information, Nagari > > lipi are first attested from the 8th century AD only. > > > > - the high court judgment says that they are not sure if Babur > > actually built the mosque - they only concur it because of > > circumstantial evidences. Also they are not sure about the date of the > > mosque construction. But its amazing that they are hundred percent > > sure of the exact place of lord Rama's birth (which predates the > > mosque's construction by centuries). How did they reach that > > conclusion? > > > > - Do you know the exact date/year/era of lord Rama's birth? > > > > Thanks, and it would be good if you could provide answers to some of > > these queries. > > > > Javed > > > > > > > > On 10/7/10, Bipin Trivedi wrote: > >> > >> Siddharth Varadarajan article > >> http://www.hindu.com/2010/10/01/stories/2010100163711400.htm in > > Hindu,Romila > >> Thapar, PUDR surprises me when they writes Ayodhya judgment based on > faith > >> only. > >> > >> I think most of them even not read the judgment properly before writing > >> their views. This judgment was after marathon exercise of referring > about > >> 274 books thoroughly, 798 past judgments, documents presented by both > the > >> parties and various ancient mythological books. As they argue, judgment > is > >> not only based on faith but mainly based on 574 pages ASI report. ASI is > > not > >> an ordinary organization but credible historical survey organization and > >> there is no reason to doubt its credibility. It is surprising that > reason > >> given by Varadarajan to doubt the ASI report that it was conducted on > 2003 > >> during NDA rule. Exactly pseudo secular type belief. > >> > >> However if you don't consider this, but earlier also ASI took this study > >> between 1975 to 1985 under Historian B B Lal (under congress rule!) and > >> declared in 1990 that he found even bigger monumental existence in the > > past > >> bellow the present Babri Mosque. He also found at that time line of > > pillars > >> (stambh) on digging just 4 meter away from mosque. > >> > >> Not only this in July 1992, retired director of ASI Y D Sharma and K M > >> Shrivastav along with 6 other historians carried out search at Ramcoat > > where > >> mosque was there. They also found the traces of big temple there. Even > it > >> was noticed by historian that some pillars used to built mosque was > > pillars > >> of temple and never found such type of pillars in any other mosques. > >> > >> They have found one Shilalekh also. But, communist historian made > > allegation > >> that it was stolen from Lucknow museum. However, the curator of museum > >> denied about any such theft from museum in press conference. He has > shown > >> shilalekh in the museum to the press people and proved that both the > >> shilalekh are different. However, at that time Arjunsingh (key pseudo > >> secularist. He took many steps just to appease minority but averted by > SC > > in > >> few cases) was union minister stopped the research immediately and took > >> custody of all the relevant documents and probably destroyed. Else > traces > > of > >> temple would have been proved earlier only. > >> > >> Main points of ASI reports are as under. > >> 1. Found the traces of big temple just below the 3 gumbaj of mosque. > >> 2. Found stone shilps of lotus, kaustubh, mani (pearl) and goddess > > embedded > >> on the wall. > >> 3. Found stone bellow 20 ft showing name of Hindu goddess in devnagri > lipi > >> 4. Found black pillars of bird shape. > >> 5. Pair of 30 pillars (30+30) line found in north-south direction. > >> 6. Found round and other shaped bricks which were used in India only. > >> 7. Found round stones kept on the top of the temple or shikhar. > >> 8. History students can easily understand that land bellow 1 ft means > > about > >> 100 years. So, the things found bellow 20 ft concludes that the material > >> found is at least 1500 to 2000 years old. While, Babar entered in India > > just > >> before about 500 years. > >> > >> These are just few things mentioned. The report is full of 574 pages > > proves > >> many more things. So, the learned judges (includes Mr. S U Khan also) > > after > >> going through such solid report/proof gave correct judgment. However, if > >> they would have gone other way of judgment would be suspicious actually. > >> > >> Thanks > >> Bipin Trivedi > >> > >> > >> > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe > >> in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From indersalim at gmail.com Sun Oct 10 10:01:15 2010 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 10:01:15 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] something to feed and free the mind Message-ID: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XQ7Zs4UGN0 -- plz press From aliens at dataone.in Sun Oct 10 10:52:02 2010 From: aliens at dataone.in (Bipin Trivedi) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 10:52:02 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] How Allahabad HC exposed 'experts' espousing Masjid cause Message-ID: <001301cb683b$12580a70$37081f50$@in> Most of these experts deposed twice. Before the ASI excavations, they said there was no temple beneath the mosque and, after the site had been dug up, they claimed what was unearthed was a mosque or a stupa. During lengthy cross-examination spread over several pages and recorded by Justice Agarwal, the historians and experts were subjected to pointed queries about their expertise, background and basis for their opinions. "Normally, courts do not make adverse comments on the deposition of a witness and suffice it to consider whether it is credible or not, but we find it difficult to resist ourselves in this particular case considering the sensitivity and nature of dispute and also the reckless and irresponsible kind of statements..." the judge has noted. Read full article bellow. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/How-Allahabad-HC-exposed-experts-es pousing-Masjid-cause/articleshow/6716643.cms NEW DELHI: The role played by "independent experts" - historians and archaeologists who appeared on behalf of the Waqf Board to support its claim - has come in for criticism by one of the Allahabad High Court judges in the Ayodhya verdict. While the special bench of three judges unanimously dismissed objections raised by the experts to the presence of a temple, it was Justice Sudhir Agarwal who put their claims to extended judicial scrutiny. Most of these experts deposed twice. Before the ASI excavations, they said there was no temple beneath the mosque and, after the site had been dug up, they claimed what was unearthed was a mosque or a stupa. During lengthy cross-examination spread over several pages and recorded by Justice Agarwal, the historians and experts were subjected to pointed queries about their expertise, background and basis for their opinions. To the court's astonishment, some who had written signed articles and issued pamphlets, found themselves withering under scrutiny and the judge said they were displaying an "ostrich-like attitude" to facts. He also pointed out how the independent witnesses were all connected - one had done a PhD under the other, another had contributed an article to a book penned by a witness. Some instances underlined by the judge are: Suvira Jaiswal deposed "whatever knowledge I gained with respect to disputed site is based on newspaper reports or what others told" (other experts). She said she prepared a report on the Babri dispute "after reading newspaper reports and on basis of discussions with medieval history expert in my department." Supriya Verma, another expert who challenged the ASI excavations, had not read the ground penetration radar survey report that led the court to order an excavation. She did her PhD under another expert Shireen F Ratnagar. Verma and Jaya Menon alleged that pillar bases at the excavated site had been planted but HC found they were not present at the time the actual excavation took place. Archaeologist Shereen F Ratnagar has written the "introduction" to the book of another expert who deposed, Professor Mandal. She admitted she had no field experience. "Normally, courts do not make adverse comments on the deposition of a witness and suffice it to consider whether it is credible or not, but we find it difficult to resist ourselves in this particular case considering the sensitivity and nature of dispute and also the reckless and irresponsible kind of statements..." the judge has noted. He said opinions had been offered without making a proper investigation, research or study in the subject. The judge said he was "startled and puzzled" by contradictory statements. When expert witness Suraj Bhan deposed on the Babri mosque, the weight of his evidence was contradicted by another expert for Muslim parties, Shirin Musavi, who told the court that Bhan "is an archaeologist and not an expert on medieval history". Justice Agarwal referred to signed statements issued by experts and noted that "instead of helping in making a cordial atmosphere it tends to create more complications, conflict and controversy." He pointed out that experts carry weight with public opinion. "One cannot say that though I had made a statement but I am not responsible for its authenticity since it is not based on my study or research but what I have learnt from what others have uttered," Justice Aggarwal has said, emphasising the need for thorough original research before concurring with what someone else has claimed. Read more: How Allahabad HC exposed 'experts' espousing Masjid cause - The Times of India http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/How-Allahabad-HC-exposed-experts-es pousing-Masjid-cause/articleshow/6716643.cms#ixzz11viLUfM7 From yasir.media at gmail.com Sun Oct 10 11:23:31 2010 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?IHlhc2lyIH7ZitinINiz2LE=?=) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 10:53:31 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] PSEUDO SECULARISTS NOW OPPOSING AYODHYA JUDGEMENT In-Reply-To: <001201cb6833$8f2c0a40$ad841ec0$@in> References: <002101cb65d2$9fe9ac60$dfbd0520$@in> <001c01cb6637$2261a490$6724edb0$@in> <000401cb6709$4dafe210$e90fa630$@in> <001201cb6833$8f2c0a40$ad841ec0$@in> Message-ID: That second comment is totally uncalled for. sounds like you haven't gotten out of KG. On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 9:28 AM, Bipin Trivedi wrote: > You can find full detailed judgment on site: http://www.rjbm.nic.in/ > > First look at Pakistan legal system and its neutrality before criticizing > Indian legal system and neutrality. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net [mailto:reader-list-bounces at sarai.net] > On Behalf Of yasir ~?? ?? > Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 12:19 AM > To: Sarai Reader-list > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] PSEUDO SECULARISTS NOW OPPOSING AYODHYA > JUDGEMENT > > It is also customary for judges to decide considering 'public opinion', in > this case the highly politicised public opinion of the dominating majority. > Its how they eventually balance the evidence, lack of it, and how the court > wants its judgement to be received, what consequences it wants to see, > these > are also part of the judgement. a judgement may or may not be truth. Its > where one stands and makes a call. > > btw is there a detailed judgement yet. and are there any dissenting judges. > how does that work in India. > > best > > > > On Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 9:53 PM, Bipin Trivedi wrote: > > > Dear Javed, > > > > Criticisms are always welcome, but there should be some logic behind it. > > Criticism without any evidence just for their bias belief cannot be > > acceptable. Those opposing does not came forward with any kind of logical > > evidence. There was lot of arguments, proof produced by the other party > in > > the court but could not able to convince the panel of judges and so their > > evidence was weak and could not withstand. > > > > No one can prove historical events since you will not find any witness. > > But, > > still history exists, historical events exist and effects present also. > > People living today has never seen historical > > personalities/events/monuments > > but feel/heard it from their ancestors and this chain of ancestors itself > > becomes one kind of proof and here the faith comes into existence. > > > > Not a single witness today for existence of Ram/Krishna/Paygamber/Ishu. > > Many > > believe that they are myth then also millions of people have faith in > them > > and with their inspiration one want to live their life, nothing wrong in > > it. > > > > Thanks > > Bipin Trivedi > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Javed [mailto:javedmasoo at gmail.com] > > Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2010 10:36 PM > > To: Bipin Trivedi > > Cc: sarai-list > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] PSEUDO SECULARISTS NOW OPPOSING AYODHYA > > JUDGEMENT > > > > Dear Bipin > > I cannot prove anything about history that old. No body can. Show me > > one single historian who can be 100% sure about anything that happened > > before his/her lifetime. Yes, but we can probably be sure about the > > history that is happening in our lives. Such as the demolition of the > > Babari mosque - yes I can prove who did that on which date. > > > > By the way, in one sentense you are saying ASI uses scientific and > > universally approved formula - then another sentence you say their > > method uses "faith of the millions of people". Sorry that's not a > > scientific method. All scientific discoveries have to be vetted by > > other scientists before they can become theories. So if some > > scientists are systematically criticizing the theories of ASI, why are > > you scared of criticism, and why do you have to label them commies and > > pseudos etc.? > > > > Javed > > > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 9:18 PM, Bipin Trivedi wrote: > > > Dear Javed, > > > > > > I am not saying this, this is the general excavation law comes in the > > study > > > of history. You ask any history student or historian. The things found > > > bellow 20 ft. does not prove it as old as 1500 years, but there is > > > systematic and scientific method to derive its age. Formula to derive > the > > > age is purely scientific and universally approved method. > > > > > > Are you sure that devanagri lipi was not used before 2000 years? Can > you > > > prove it? There is no way to prove whether it is used at that time or > > not, > > > but age of the stone found on which this lipi carved was of that time. > > They > > > were not sure about birth place of Rama, but ASI findings leads to this > > > belief of course along with millions of people faith. > > > > > > There are so many historical personalities whose date/place of birth is > > > unknown and here only faith comes into existence. > > > > > > Thanks > > > Bipin Trivedi > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Javed [mailto:javedmasoo at gmail.com] > > > Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2010 6:52 PM > > > To: Bipin Trivedi > > > Cc: sarai-list; Patrice Riemens > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] PSEUDO SECULARISTS NOW OPPOSING AYODHYA > > JUDGEMENT > > > > > > Dear Bipin > > > You may call me a pseudo-secularist or a Muslim fundamentalist. But I > > > have a few queries based on your message: > > > > > > - You say that "land bellow 1 ft means about 100 years. So, the things > > > found bellow 20 ft... is at least 1500 to 2000 years old." Is that > > > really from a history/archeology textbook? If someone dug a 10 feet > > > pit 50 years ago and left some bricks or other material would we > > > consider it a 1000 years old material? > > > > > > - You mentioned that "at 20 ft they found stone showing name of Hindu > > > goddess in devnagri lipi". Accoring to your estimate, 20 feet must be > > > 2000 years old. But was devanagri lipi already in use 2000 years ago? > > > That is really some news. According to my humble information, Nagari > > > lipi are first attested from the 8th century AD only. > > > > > > - the high court judgment says that they are not sure if Babur > > > actually built the mosque - they only concur it because of > > > circumstantial evidences. Also they are not sure about the date of the > > > mosque construction. But its amazing that they are hundred percent > > > sure of the exact place of lord Rama's birth (which predates the > > > mosque's construction by centuries). How did they reach that > > > conclusion? > > > > > > - Do you know the exact date/year/era of lord Rama's birth? > > > > > > Thanks, and it would be good if you could provide answers to some of > > > these queries. > > > > > > Javed > > > > > > > > > > > > On 10/7/10, Bipin Trivedi wrote: > > >> > > >> Siddharth Varadarajan article > > >> http://www.hindu.com/2010/10/01/stories/2010100163711400.htm in > > > Hindu,Romila > > >> Thapar, PUDR surprises me when they writes Ayodhya judgment based on > > faith > > >> only. > > >> > > >> I think most of them even not read the judgment properly before > writing > > >> their views. This judgment was after marathon exercise of referring > > about > > >> 274 books thoroughly, 798 past judgments, documents presented by both > > the > > >> parties and various ancient mythological books. As they argue, > judgment > > is > > >> not only based on faith but mainly based on 574 pages ASI report. ASI > is > > > not > > >> an ordinary organization but credible historical survey organization > and > > >> there is no reason to doubt its credibility. It is surprising that > > reason > > >> given by Varadarajan to doubt the ASI report that it was conducted on > > 2003 > > >> during NDA rule. Exactly pseudo secular type belief. > > >> > > >> However if you don't consider this, but earlier also ASI took this > study > > >> between 1975 to 1985 under Historian B B Lal (under congress rule!) > and > > >> declared in 1990 that he found even bigger monumental existence in the > > > past > > >> bellow the present Babri Mosque. He also found at that time line of > > > pillars > > >> (stambh) on digging just 4 meter away from mosque. > > >> > > >> Not only this in July 1992, retired director of ASI Y D Sharma and K M > > >> Shrivastav along with 6 other historians carried out search at Ramcoat > > > where > > >> mosque was there. They also found the traces of big temple there. Even > > it > > >> was noticed by historian that some pillars used to built mosque was > > > pillars > > >> of temple and never found such type of pillars in any other mosques. > > >> > > >> They have found one Shilalekh also. But, communist historian made > > > allegation > > >> that it was stolen from Lucknow museum. However, the curator of museum > > >> denied about any such theft from museum in press conference. He has > > shown > > >> shilalekh in the museum to the press people and proved that both the > > >> shilalekh are different. However, at that time Arjunsingh (key pseudo > > >> secularist. He took many steps just to appease minority but averted by > > SC > > > in > > >> few cases) was union minister stopped the research immediately and > took > > >> custody of all the relevant documents and probably destroyed. Else > > traces > > > of > > >> temple would have been proved earlier only. > > >> > > >> Main points of ASI reports are as under. > > >> 1. Found the traces of big temple just below the 3 gumbaj of mosque. > > >> 2. Found stone shilps of lotus, kaustubh, mani (pearl) and goddess > > > embedded > > >> on the wall. > > >> 3. Found stone bellow 20 ft showing name of Hindu goddess in devnagri > > lipi > > >> 4. Found black pillars of bird shape. > > >> 5. Pair of 30 pillars (30+30) line found in north-south direction. > > >> 6. Found round and other shaped bricks which were used in India only. > > >> 7. Found round stones kept on the top of the temple or shikhar. > > >> 8. History students can easily understand that land bellow 1 ft means > > > about > > >> 100 years. So, the things found bellow 20 ft concludes that the > material > > >> found is at least 1500 to 2000 years old. While, Babar entered in > India > > > just > > >> before about 500 years. > > >> > > >> These are just few things mentioned. The report is full of 574 pages > > > proves > > >> many more things. So, the learned judges (includes Mr. S U Khan also) > > > after > > >> going through such solid report/proof gave correct judgment. However, > if > > >> they would have gone other way of judgment would be suspicious > actually. > > >> > > >> Thanks > > >> Bipin Trivedi > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> _________________________________________ > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >> Critiques & Collaborations > > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe > > >> in the subject header. > > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > From rama.sangye at gmail.com Sun Oct 10 11:39:02 2010 From: rama.sangye at gmail.com (V Ramaswamy) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 11:39:02 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] PSEUDO SECULARISTS NOW OPPOSING AYODHYA JUDGEMENT In-Reply-To: References: <002101cb65d2$9fe9ac60$dfbd0520$@in> <001c01cb6637$2261a490$6724edb0$@in> <000401cb6709$4dafe210$e90fa630$@in> <001201cb6833$8f2c0a40$ad841ec0$@in> Message-ID: What has Pakistan's legal system got anything to do with this subject? Why not Lesotho's? Or Norway's? Do you mean that it is justified to wilfully practice injustice in one country, citing something in some other country? VR From peter.ksmtf at gmail.com Sun Oct 10 15:25:17 2010 From: peter.ksmtf at gmail.com (T Peter) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 15:25:17 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fish workers to launch nation-wide protest In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: By Express News Service 10 Oct 2010 03:07:28 AM IST Fish workers to launch nation-wide protest THIRUVANANTHAPURAM: The National Fish Workers Forum and Kerala Independent Fishermen Federation will launch a nation-wide protest against the notification, introduced by the Centre, regarding the coastal land regulation. In a press release, issued here on Saturday, the Federation said that the regulation did not have any provision for constructing homes for fishermen within the 200-metre limit and preservation of natural environment. The Federation alleged that the regulation gave ample opportunities for the tourist and construction lobbies to utilise the coastal land. They have also demanded that the Government should give land and home for the land deprived fishermen. The debts of fishermen, who are members of fishermen welfare scheme, should be written off and the Government should set up kerosene bunks to prevent black marketing .They will forward a memorandum, detailing their grievances regarding the regulation to Prime Minister, Environment Ministry, Sonia Gandhi and to major political parties on October 15. The Federation will also stage dharna and satyagraha in major coastal districts from October 20 to 28. October 29 will be observed as Protest Day across the country. National conventions will also be held on November 21 , World Fishermen Day. http://www.keralafishworkers.in http://www.alakal.net From cashmeeri at yahoo.com Sun Oct 10 15:30:23 2010 From: cashmeeri at yahoo.com (cashmeeri) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 03:00:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] PSEUDO SECULARISTS NOW OPPOSING AYODHYA JUDGEMENT Message-ID: <513417.42150.qm@web112608.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> yasir   "It is also customary for judges to decide considering 'public opinion' "   customary?   could you please give some significant examples of this contention   ......... aalok aima     --- On Sun, 10/10/10, yasir ~يا سر wrote: From: yasir ~يا سر Subject: Re: [Reader-list] PSEUDO SECULARISTS NOW OPPOSING AYODHYA JUDGEMENT To: "Sarai Reader-list" Date: Sunday, October 10, 2010, 12:19 AM It is also customary for judges to decide considering 'public opinion', in this case the highly politicised public opinion of the dominating majority. Its how they eventually balance the evidence, lack of it, and how the court wants its judgement to be received, what consequences it wants to see, these are also part of the judgement. a judgement may or may not be truth. Its where one stands and makes a call. btw is there a detailed judgement yet. and are there any dissenting judges. how does that work in India. best From shuddha at sarai.net Sun Oct 10 23:42:41 2010 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 23:42:41 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Mumbai University Capitulates to Shiv Sena Thugs Message-ID: Dear All, I fail to understand why institutions in Bombay cannot call the bluff of the obscenity known as the Shiv Sena. Recently, the student wing of the Sena, 'persuaded' the vice-chancellor of Mumbai University to remove Rohinton Mistry's book - 'Such a Long Journey' from the BA syllabus (see below). What legitimacy do the baba-log of the Shiv Sena have? And why should a university have to listen to them in deciding what to teach? Sometimes I am really glad that I do not live in what gets touted as India's most 'cosmopolitan' city, but is rapidly turning into a gigantic ghetto presided over by the spoilt brats of the Shv Sena. best Shuddha -------------------- Mumbai varsity drops Rohinton Mistry book after Shiv Sena student wing protest Published: Saturday, Oct 2, 2010, 15:32 IST Place: Mumbai | Agency: PTI http://www.dnaindia.com/mumbai/report_mumbai-varsity-drops-rohinton- mistry-book-after-shiv-sena-student-wing-protest_1446574 The University of Mumbai has dropped the Booker-nominated novel by Rohinton Mistry Such a Long Journey from the BA syllabus following objections by Shiv Sena students' wing which alleged that it 'poorly represented' the saffron party. The university decided to drop the novel, which was part of the Bachelor of Arts (English) second year syllabus since 2007, last week, vice-chancellor Rajan Welukar said today. The university has sent a circular on the issue to colleges affiliated to it. Meanwhile, college teachers said despite having the question papers prepared for the second year BA English, colleges had to postpone the exam after receiving the circular. "This objectionable novel uses extremely obscene and vulgar language in its text and also makes anti-Sena remarks," said Bharatiya Vidyarthi Sena chief, Abhijit Panse. "The vice chancellor understood our point and was very supportive. He immediately convened a meeting with his senior staff and later informed us that the book had been taken out of the curriculum," he said. Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From yasir.media at gmail.com Mon Oct 11 03:21:21 2010 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?IHlhc2lyIH7ZitinINiz2LE=?=) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 02:51:21 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] PSEUDO SECULARISTS NOW OPPOSING AYODHYA JUDGEMENT In-Reply-To: <513417.42150.qm@web112608.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <513417.42150.qm@web112608.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: janambhoomi babri mosque decision dividing rights to contested space like in mumbai, roja films: we are after all hindustanis first, cant we all just get along... meanwhile there's babri and gujarat massacres http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AhbyGeTIbQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEG0D3FmgbU in fact this is exactly what hashim ansari says at one point in 2009. the point where one gives up contesting in favour of reasoned compromise: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QO_Nnf0Qprg (says its pressure from groups not just the case,...) This is the reasoned, considered public opinion and coincidentally judgment of the court. it is all mixed up, each string pulls out others in Industan significant examples http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2010/09/20/midday2/?refid=0 listen to after 31:00 to 45:00 which is the last part (5) of the audio talk re US SC & public opinion or see conclusion, p24 http://www.unc.edu/~pcwohlf/sc_ajps_fin.pdf its always there. best On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 3:00 PM, cashmeeri wrote: > yasir > > "It is also customary for judges to decide considering 'public opinion' " > > customary? > > could you please give some significant examples of this contention > > ......... aalok aima > > > --- On *Sun, 10/10/10, yasir ~يا سر * wrote: > > > From: yasir ~يا سر > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] PSEUDO SECULARISTS NOW OPPOSING AYODHYA > JUDGEMENT > To: "Sarai Reader-list" > Date: Sunday, October 10, 2010, 12:19 AM > > > It is also customary for judges to decide considering 'public opinion', in > this case the highly politicised public opinion of the dominating majority. > Its how they eventually balance the evidence, lack of it, and how the court > wants its judgement to be received, what consequences it wants to see, > these > are also part of the judgement. a judgement may or may not be truth. Its > where one stands and makes a call. > > btw is there a detailed judgement yet. and are there any dissenting judges. > how does that work in India. > > best > > > From yasir.media at gmail.com Mon Oct 11 03:21:21 2010 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?IHlhc2lyIH7ZitinINiz2LE=?=) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 02:51:21 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] PSEUDO SECULARISTS NOW OPPOSING AYODHYA JUDGEMENT In-Reply-To: <513417.42150.qm@web112608.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <513417.42150.qm@web112608.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: janambhoomi babri mosque decision dividing rights to contested space like in mumbai, roja films: we are after all hindustanis first, cant we all just get along... meanwhile there's babri and gujarat massacres http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AhbyGeTIbQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEG0D3FmgbU in fact this is exactly what hashim ansari says at one point in 2009. the point where one gives up contesting in favour of reasoned compromise: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QO_Nnf0Qprg (says its pressure from groups not just the case,...) This is the reasoned, considered public opinion and coincidentally judgment of the court. it is all mixed up, each string pulls out others in Industan significant examples http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2010/09/20/midday2/?refid=0 listen to after 31:00 to 45:00 which is the last part (5) of the audio talk re US SC & public opinion or see conclusion, p24 http://www.unc.edu/~pcwohlf/sc_ajps_fin.pdf its always there. best On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 3:00 PM, cashmeeri wrote: > yasir > > "It is also customary for judges to decide considering 'public opinion' " > > customary? > > could you please give some significant examples of this contention > > ......... aalok aima > > > --- On *Sun, 10/10/10, yasir ~يا سر * wrote: > > > From: yasir ~يا سر > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] PSEUDO SECULARISTS NOW OPPOSING AYODHYA > JUDGEMENT > To: "Sarai Reader-list" > Date: Sunday, October 10, 2010, 12:19 AM > > > It is also customary for judges to decide considering 'public opinion', in > this case the highly politicised public opinion of the dominating majority. > Its how they eventually balance the evidence, lack of it, and how the court > wants its judgement to be received, what consequences it wants to see, > these > are also part of the judgement. a judgement may or may not be truth. Its > where one stands and makes a call. > > btw is there a detailed judgement yet. and are there any dissenting judges. > how does that work in India. > > best > > > From pheeta.ram at gmail.com Mon Oct 11 03:37:06 2010 From: pheeta.ram at gmail.com (Pheeta Ram) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 03:37:06 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Mumbai University Capitulates to Shiv Sena Thugs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Shuddhabrata S. I think the primary reason behind the Bombay University's capitulating to Shiv Sena goons [and not brats or baba log] is because the people who want the text to be in syllabus are not courageous enough to take the Shiv Sena bull by its horns. Moreover, Shiv Sena is a curious network of people who also happen to run both politics and business so any opposing body need to have an equally strong supporting network. Also, very interestingly, some of the people who are adversaries in the political sphere are partners in business. The student politics in the Bombay University is in doldrums and certainly not what it used to be. This is the usual scenario throughout India. The students in colleges and universities have totally been co-opted by capitalistic conundrums."Every buddy is a cool dude." And being 'cool' means being zillions of light years away from politics! The students have lost their political edge bit by bit thereby paving the way for Shiv Sena and the likes. The grave of progressive politics shall be dug in the hallowed portals of colleges and universities. Once in a while i bump into these students and every other guy i talk to with about Marxism asks me: "Aren't these the same guys who did Nandigram?" Now, if these are the connections that the word "Marxism" pops up in the mind of impressionable younger lot with low attention span and weaker will to discuss meaningful things through, how can we expect these guys to pitch their tents for Mistry, though there is apparently nothing to do with Marxism and Mistry? Moreover, people who believe that Mistry's text should be in syllabus are saying that in hushed voices. There is no sense of outrage. I believe Shiv Sena is less about politics and more about "body politics". They pose a direct threat to a person's body! And these days i think people have increasingly started believing their bodies to be their only world. Not that this was not the case before but people are more afraid of being hurt, of being mutilated, of being maulted, of losing a limb. Death of the hearts and minds, and foreclosure of alternative futures means nothing to these people. There are many things that are going wrong and yet, i see things are simmering at places and ready to erupt, its just a matter of time. Its just that people who are in the mainstream society, who believe that Mistry should be in the syllabus, need to be more aggressive than the Sena goons. Interestingly, while i am rooting for Mistry, i believe there are many other, far important writers the current crop of college and university guys need to be acquainted with! Best Pheeta Ram On 10/10/10, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > Dear All, > > I fail to understand why institutions in Bombay cannot call the bluff > of the obscenity known as the Shiv Sena. Recently, the student wing > of the Sena, 'persuaded' the vice-chancellor of Mumbai University to > remove Rohinton Mistry's book - 'Such a Long Journey' from the BA > syllabus (see below). What legitimacy do the baba-log of the Shiv > Sena have? And why should a university have to listen to them in > deciding what to teach? Sometimes I am really glad that I do not live > in what gets touted as India's most 'cosmopolitan' city, but is > rapidly turning into a gigantic ghetto presided over by the spoilt > brats of the Shv Sena. > > best > > Shuddha > -------------------- > > > Mumbai varsity drops Rohinton Mistry book after Shiv Sena student > wing protest > Published: Saturday, Oct 2, 2010, 15:32 IST > Place: Mumbai | Agency: PTI > http://www.dnaindia.com/mumbai/report_mumbai-varsity-drops-rohinton- > mistry-book-after-shiv-sena-student-wing-protest_1446574 > > The University of Mumbai has dropped the Booker-nominated novel by > Rohinton Mistry Such a Long Journey from the BA syllabus following > objections by Shiv Sena students' wing which alleged that it 'poorly > represented' the saffron party. > > The university decided to drop the novel, which was part of the > Bachelor of Arts (English) second year syllabus since 2007, last > week, vice-chancellor Rajan Welukar said today. > > The university has sent a circular on the issue to colleges > affiliated to it. > > Meanwhile, college teachers said despite having the question papers > prepared for the second year BA English, colleges had to postpone the > exam after receiving the circular. > > "This objectionable novel uses extremely obscene and vulgar language > in its text and also makes anti-Sena remarks," said Bharatiya > Vidyarthi Sena chief, Abhijit Panse. > > "The vice chancellor understood our point and was very supportive. He > immediately convened a meeting with his senior staff and later > informed us that the book had been taken out of the curriculum," he > said. > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From cubbykabi at yahoo.com Mon Oct 11 07:26:34 2010 From: cubbykabi at yahoo.com (kabi cubby sherman) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 07:26:34 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?q?Fw=3A_=5BCitizen-Mumbai=5D_Onlinepetition?= =?utf-8?q?-_Against_the_Vice-Chancellor=E2=80=99s_Decision_to_Drop_Such_A?= =?utf-8?q?_Long_Journey_from_the_SYBA_English_Syllabus_of_Mumbai_Universi?= =?utf-8?q?ty?= Message-ID: <719621.8814.qm@web94715.mail.in2.yahoo.com> please sign petition and circulate widely kabi Meter Down - काली पीली की कहानी blog: http://meterdown.wordpress.com podcast: http://feeds2.feedburner.com/meterdown ----- Forwarded Message ---- From: Kamayani To: free-binayaksen ; Mumbai For ; jsa-mumbai ; mihre Sent: Mon, 11 October, 2010 12:54:34 AM Subject: [Citizen-Mumbai] Onlinepetition- Against the Vice-Chancellor’s Decision to Drop Such A Long Journey from the SYBA English Syllabus of Mumbai University To: Governor of Maharashtra (Chancellor of the University of Mumbai) Dear Friends, Please find included in this email is a letter that has been drafted to express dissent with the manner in which the Vice-Chancellor of the University of Mumbai has flouted administrative procedures and bypassed academic bodies to omit a novel from the syllabus of English Literature for SYBA in response to pressure from a political group. It is addressed to the Governor of Maharashtra, who is the Chancellor of the University and copies will be marked to the VC and to the Chairman of the University Grants Commission. If you strongly feel that voices of dissent need to emerge against the shrinking democratic spaces within the university and the city of Mumbai in general, then please lend your support by endorsing the statement and signing the letter, and replying to the person who has sent you the email so that signatures can be collated. Please feel free to forward this to friends and colleagues who will be interested, and get back to me when you get signatures from them, latest by Wednesday the 13th of October, 2010. Sincerely, Shashank The letter: To, The Governor of Maharashtra, Address Cc: The Vice Chancellor, University of Mumbai, Address The Chairman of the University Grants Commission, Address Subject: Statement of Opposition Against the Vice-Chancellor’s Decision to Drop Such A Long Journey from the SYBA English Syllabus of Mumbai University We, the undersigned condemn the undemocratic manner in which Rohintion Mistry’s novel Such A Long Journey has been omitted from the Second Year Bachelor of Arts (SYBA) English Literature syllabus of the University of Mumbai. We are disturbed and alarmed by the manner in which the Vice-Chancellor of the University, Dr. Rajan Welukar, bowed down to the demands of the Bharatiya Vidyarthi Sena (the student wing of the Shiv Sena) and had the novel dropped from the syllabus overnight, purely on account of the group’s displeasure with “anti Shiv Sena passages”; “derogatory references” to Mumbai’s dabbawalas, the Marathi Manoos and Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru; and “extremely obscene and vulgar language in its’ text”. While we do not deny that the BVS and its’ supporters have every right to be outraged by the contents of the novel, we strongly oppose the means which they have chosen to express their dissent, which includes burning copies of the book and the issuing of ultimatums not only for the VC to omit the text from the syllabus within 24 hours, but also to exclude the professors who included to text in the syllabus from any university work in the future. Furthermore, being keenly aware of the immense bureaucracy involved in the decision-making processes of the University, we question the nature of the administrative process which led to the book being dropped from the syllabus and demand that the details of the said proceedings be made public. Lastly, in the interest of upholding the democratic principles enshrined within the Indian Constitution, we demand that the novel be reinstated in the syllabus and urge the BVS and its’ supporters to initiate healthy and democratic debate regarding whether it deserves a place in the syllabus or not. Yours sincerely, Your name, College/Organisation name, Position/Department/Year, etc. Sincerely,http://www.petitiononline.com/SYBAban/petition.html -- Adv Kamayani Bali Mahabal +919820749204 skype-lawyercumactivist "After a war, the silencing of arms is not enough. Peace means respecting all rights. You can’t respect one of them and violate the others. When a society doesn’t respect the rights of its citizens, it undermines peace and leads it back to war.” -- Maria Julia Hernandez www.otherindia.org www.binayaksen.net www.phm-india.org www.phmovement.org www.ifhhro.org -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Citizen-Mumbai" group. To post to this group, send email to citizen-mumbai at googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to citizen-mumbai+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/citizen-mumbai?hl=en. From pawan.durani at gmail.com Mon Oct 11 09:50:36 2010 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 09:50:36 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Mumbai University Capitulates to Shiv Sena Thugs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Suddha , Are you talking about Mumbai ? Pawan On 10/10/10, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > Dear All, > > I fail to understand why institutions in Bombay cannot call the bluff > of the obscenity known as the Shiv Sena. Recently, the student wing > of the Sena, 'persuaded' the vice-chancellor of Mumbai University to > remove Rohinton Mistry's book - 'Such a Long Journey' from the BA > syllabus (see below). What legitimacy do the baba-log of the Shiv > Sena have? And why should a university have to listen to them in > deciding what to teach? Sometimes I am really glad that I do not live > in what gets touted as India's most 'cosmopolitan' city, but is > rapidly turning into a gigantic ghetto presided over by the spoilt > brats of the Shv Sena. > > best > > Shuddha > -------------------- > > > Mumbai varsity drops Rohinton Mistry book after Shiv Sena student > wing protest > Published: Saturday, Oct 2, 2010, 15:32 IST > Place: Mumbai | Agency: PTI > http://www.dnaindia.com/mumbai/report_mumbai-varsity-drops-rohinton- > mistry-book-after-shiv-sena-student-wing-protest_1446574 > > The University of Mumbai has dropped the Booker-nominated novel by > Rohinton Mistry Such a Long Journey from the BA syllabus following > objections by Shiv Sena students' wing which alleged that it 'poorly > represented' the saffron party. > > The university decided to drop the novel, which was part of the > Bachelor of Arts (English) second year syllabus since 2007, last > week, vice-chancellor Rajan Welukar said today. > > The university has sent a circular on the issue to colleges > affiliated to it. > > Meanwhile, college teachers said despite having the question papers > prepared for the second year BA English, colleges had to postpone the > exam after receiving the circular. > > "This objectionable novel uses extremely obscene and vulgar language > in its text and also makes anti-Sena remarks," said Bharatiya > Vidyarthi Sena chief, Abhijit Panse. > > "The vice chancellor understood our point and was very supportive. He > immediately convened a meeting with his senior staff and later > informed us that the book had been taken out of the curriculum," he > said. > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kiccovich at yahoo.com Mon Oct 11 13:14:32 2010 From: kiccovich at yahoo.com (francesca recchia) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 00:44:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] 'Collective towns in Iraqi Kurdistan', ALF, Oct 18 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <646908.60053.qm@web113207.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> for those of you who are in bangalore... hope to see you there! francesca recchia kiccovich at yahoo.com it +39 338 166 3648 Dear friends, The Urban Research and Policy Programme of the National Institute of Advanced Studies and the Alternative Law Forum invite you to a talk on: 'From forced displacement to urban cores: the case of collective towns in Iraqi Kurdistan' by Francesca Recchia on Monday, October 18, 2010 at 6.00 p.m. at Alternative law Forum* Abstract: Reflecting on the 1980s forced displacement of Kurdish people by Saddam Hussein, the lecture presents a historical reconstruction of the use of territorial design as a tool for ethnic and urban control in the context of Northern Iraq. The Ba’athist regime in Iraq proceeded to a massive displacement of people from the villages on the mountainous areas in the Kurdistan Region down to the valleys. For this purpose, the government specifically designed Collective Towns (mujamma’at). The planning and design of Collective Towns initially responded to a logic of rationalisation and cost-effectiveness, but was successively turned into one of the political tools that Saddam Hussein used to manage the tensions with the Kurdish population of Iraq. After the fall of Saddam Hussein’s regime, Collective Towns were not dismantled, but were appropriated by inhabitants and governments and turned into fully functional urban centres at the core of contemporary urbanisation in Kurdistan. As a way of conclusion, the discussion will focus on how Collective Towns “subversively” evolved from structures of oppression into potentially open nuclei of urban development. About the Speaker: Francesca Recchiais a researcher and lecturer, who has worked in several different countries: Iraq. Holland, Italy, Sweden, Pakistan, Palestine among others. Her approach is constructed on a strong interdisciplinary ground intersecting the fields of Social, Postcolonial, Visual and Urban Studies. She is interested in the geo-political dimension of cultural processes and mainly deals with the relations between power, space design and social conflicts. She has been a Postdoctoral Research Fellow at the Bartlett School of Planning, University College of London, holds a PhD in Cultural Studies at the Oriental Institute in Naples and a MA in Visual Cultures at Goldsmiths College, University of London. Her publications include ‘Within the Circle of Fear. Field notes from Iraqi Kurdistan’ in Sarai Reader 08: Fear, the forthcoming ‘Memory and Place. Perspectives from Iraqi Kurdistan’ in Third Text Asia, and ‘Radical Territories of Affection' in Art and Activism in the Age of Globalization. * Alternative Law Forum 122/4 Infantry Road (opposite Infantry Wedding House) Bangalore 560001 Tel - 22865757 [Photo by Ehsan Maliki] See: http://emaleki.photoshelter.com/gallery/Iraq-Saddams-Collective-Houses-in-Daratoo-and-Kasnazan-Erbil/G0000R6mCJNmlYBE -- Carol Upadhya Professor School of Social Sciences National Institute of Advanced Studies Indian Institute of Science Campus Bangalore 560012 India office: +91 80 2218 5000/ 5141 (ext) cell: +91(0) 97408 50141 carol at nias.iisc.ernet.in carol.upadhya at gmail.com Programme Co-Director, Provincial Globalisation: The Impact of Reverse Transnational Flows in India's Regional Towns http://www.aissr.uva.nl/movingmatters/projects.cfm http://www.nias.res.in/researchgroups-sss-provincial-globalisation.php From nc-agricowi at netcologne.de Mon Oct 11 16:36:55 2010 From: nc-agricowi at netcologne.de (nmf2010) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 13:06:55 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] =?iso-8859-1?q?Program_-_Week_42__NewMediaFest=2720?= =?iso-8859-1?q?10?= Message-ID: <20101011130655.3E06B52F.D50E49F0@192.168.0.3> NewMediaFest'2010 --------------------------------------- program- week 42 --> 11-17 October 2010 http://2010.newmediafest.org/?p=1096 --------------------------------------- 1. --------------------------------------- VideoChannel Cologne & artvideoKOELN are pleased to launch the Feature of the Month October 2010 http://2010.newmediafest.org/?p=1084 Videoart from Croatia curated by Wilfried Agricola de Cologne featuring videos by 15 Croatian video artists --> Dario Bardic, Ana Bilankov, Adam Dragojevic' Silvana Dunat, Darko Fritz, Zeljka Fuderer Levak Miranda Herceg, Toni Mestrovic, Ana Opalic Filip Peruzovic, Davor Sanvincenti, Martina Skender Bruna Tomsic', Sonja VUK, Andrea Zrno --------------------------------------- 2 --------------------------------------- Feature of the week 42 http://2010.newmediafest.org/?p=1089 JavaMuseum Forum for Internet Technology in Contemporary Art re-launches the JavaMuseum showcase I-Rivers - netart from German Speaking Countries --------------------------------------- 3. --------------------------------------- Feature of the Month September 2010 http://2010.newmediafest.org/?p=1017 SoundLAB VII - soundCELEBRATION was releasing on 1 September 2010, the 7th edition of SoundLAB in sequence since 2004, celebrating soundart at it's best on occasion of the 10th anniversáry of [NewMediaArtProjectNetwork]||cologne as the highlight of 7 years promoting soundart as a creative form of digital art. --------------------------------------- NewMediaFest'2010 10 Years [NewMediaArtProjectNetwork]:||cologne global heritage of digital culture 1 January - 31 December 2010 http://2010.newmediafest.org director and chief curator: Wilfried Agricola de Cologne 2010 [at] newmediafest.org From tasveerghar at gmail.com Mon Oct 11 16:54:18 2010 From: tasveerghar at gmail.com (Tasveer Ghar) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 16:54:18 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fantasizing the Mughals and Popular Perceptions of the Taj Mahal Message-ID: Dear friends Greetings from Tasveer Ghar, the house of images. We are glad to announce a brand new visual essay about the popular imagery of Taj Mahal written by Catherine Asher, based on the images from the Priya Paul archive as well the author’s collection. Fantasizing the Mughals and Popular Perceptions of the Taj Mahal http://tasveerghar.net/cmsdesk/essay/114/ The essay not only looks at the popular perceptions about the monument through the 19th century but also discusses the Taj as a symbol of love in the present scenario, and how its images have traversed through lands beyond India. It also explores how the Taj became a national monument of India and who does it really belong to. The author Catherine Asher is a professor in the Department of Art History at the University of Minnesota. She has written extensively on Indian art and architecture since 1200 in a series of essays and books, but has been particularly interested in the Mughals and how they were perceived in the 19th through 21st centuries. Her essay “Multiple Memories: Lives of the Taj Mahal,” in Crossing Cultures: Conflict / Migration / Convergence, (2008) is a recent reflection of this interest. Kindly visit Tasveer Ghar to see many more interesting visual essays and other features related to south Asian popular visual culture. Warm wishes >From the Tasveer Ghar team -- http://www.tasveerghar.net From shuddha at sarai.net Mon Oct 11 16:41:13 2010 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 16:41:13 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Such A Long Journey dropped from Mumbai University's SYBA English Syllabus - St Xavier's College expresses dissent References: Message-ID: Dear all, Apropos of the barbaric move to drop Rohinton Mistry's 'Such a Long Journey' from the SYBA English Syllabus of Mumbai University - here are a set of links. And an online petition, that I would urge everyone to sign and circulate. best, Shuddha Begin forwarded message: > From: peter griffin > Date: 11 October 2010 4:31:26 PM GMT+05:30 > To: "Griff's Picks" > Subject: Such A Long Journey dropped from Mumbai University's SYBA > English Syllabus - St Xavier's College expresses dissent > > See also: > http://stxaviers.net/noticeboard/node/230 > http://www.hindustantimes.com/Citizens-protest-dropping-book-from- > varsity-syllabus/Article1-611114.aspx > http://www.mumbaimirror.com/article/ > 15/20101010201010100933117653add10bf/Xavier%E2%80%99s-principal- > takes-on-Sena-and-his-own-student.html > > > And the letter below is also at http://www.petitiononline.com/ > SYBAban/petition.html should you wish to sign it. > > To: Governor of Maharashtra (Chancellor of the University of Mumbai) > Dear Friends, > > Please find included in this email is a letter that has been > drafted to express dissent with the manner in which the Vice- > Chancellor of the University of Mumbai has flouted administrative > procedures and bypassed academic bodies to omit a novel from the > syllabus of English Literature for SYBA in response to pressure > from a political group. > > It is addressed to the Governor of Maharashtra, who is the > Chancellor of the University and copies will be marked to the VC > and to the Chairman of the University Grants Commission. > > If you strongly feel that voices of dissent need to emerge against > the shrinking democratic spaces within the university and the city > of Mumbai in general, then please lend your support by endorsing > the statement and signing the letter, and replying to the person > who has sent you the email so that signatures can be collated. > > Please feel free to forward this to friends and colleagues who will > be interested, and get back to me when you get signatures from > them, latest by Wednesday the 13th of October, 2010. > > > Sincerely, > Shashank > > > > The letter: > > > > To, > > The Governor of Maharashtra, > Address > > > Cc: > > The Vice Chancellor, > University of Mumbai, > Address > > The Chairman of the University Grants Commission, > Address > > > > Subject: Statement of Opposition Against the Vice-Chancellor’s > Decision to Drop Such A Long Journey from the SYBA English Syllabus > of Mumbai University > > > > We, the undersigned condemn the undemocratic manner in which > Rohintion Mistry’s novel Such A Long Journey has been omitted from > the Second Year Bachelor of Arts (SYBA) English Literature syllabus > of the University of Mumbai. > > > > We are disturbed and alarmed by the manner in which the Vice- > Chancellor of the University, Dr. Rajan Welukar, bowed down to the > demands of the Bharatiya Vidyarthi Sena (the student wing of the > Shiv Sena) and had the novel dropped from the syllabus overnight, > purely on account of the group’s displeasure with “anti Shiv Sena > passages”; “derogatory references” to Mumbai’s dabbawalas, the > Marathi Manoos and Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru; and “extremely obscene > and vulgar language in its’ text”. > > > > While we do not deny that the BVS and its’ supporters have every > right to be outraged by the contents of the novel, we strongly > oppose the means which they have chosen to express their dissent, > which includes burning copies of the book and the issuing of > ultimatums not only for the VC to omit the text from the syllabus > within 24 hours, but also to exclude the professors who included to > text in the syllabus from any university work in the future. > Furthermore, being keenly aware of the immense bureaucracy involved > in the decision-making processes of the University, we question the > nature of the administrative process which led to the book being > dropped from the syllabus and demand that the details of the said > proceedings be made public. > > > > Lastly, in the interest of upholding the democratic principles > enshrined within the Indian Constitution, we demand that the novel > be reinstated in the syllabus and urge the BVS and its’ supporters > to initiate healthy and democratic debate regarding whether it > deserves a place in the syllabus or not. > > > > Yours sincerely, > > > Your name, College/Organisation name, Position/Department/Year, etc. > > Sincerely, > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From geetaseshu at gmail.com Mon Oct 11 22:44:43 2010 From: geetaseshu at gmail.com (geeta seshu) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 22:44:43 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Such A Long Journey dropped from Mumbai University's SYBA English Syllabus - St Xavier's College expresses dissent In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Withdrawal of acclaimed book from Mumbai University curriculum: A cowardly move A groundswell of opinion is building up against the move by the Mumbai University’s Vice Chancellor to withdraw Rohinton Minstry’s book ‘Such a long journey’ from the curriculum for undergraduates. A Free Speech Hub report http://www.thehoot.org/web/freetracker/story.php?storyid=165§ionId=9 On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 4:41 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > Dear all, > > Apropos of the barbaric move to drop Rohinton Mistry's 'Such a Long > Journey' from the SYBA English Syllabus of Mumbai University - here are a > set of links. And an online petition, that I would urge everyone to sign and > circulate. > > best, > > Shuddha > > Begin forwarded message: > > From: peter griffin >> Date: 11 October 2010 4:31:26 PM GMT+05:30 >> To: "Griff's Picks" >> Subject: Such A Long Journey dropped from Mumbai University's SYBA English >> Syllabus - St Xavier's College expresses dissent >> >> See also: >> http://stxaviers.net/noticeboard/node/230 >> >> http://www.hindustantimes.com/Citizens-protest-dropping-book-from-varsity-syllabus/Article1-611114.aspx >> >> http://www.mumbaimirror.com/article/15/20101010201010100933117653add10bf/Xavier%E2%80%99s-principal-takes-on-Sena-and-his-own-student.html >> >> >> And the letter below is also at >> http://www.petitiononline.com/SYBAban/petition.html should you wish to >> sign it. >> >> To: Governor of Maharashtra (Chancellor of the University of Mumbai) >> Dear Friends, >> >> Please find included in this email is a letter that has been drafted to >> express dissent with the manner in which the Vice-Chancellor of the >> University of Mumbai has flouted administrative procedures and bypassed >> academic bodies to omit a novel from the syllabus of English Literature for >> SYBA in response to pressure from a political group. >> >> It is addressed to the Governor of Maharashtra, who is the Chancellor of >> the University and copies will be marked to the VC and to the Chairman of >> the University Grants Commission. >> >> If you strongly feel that voices of dissent need to emerge against the >> shrinking democratic spaces within the university and the city of Mumbai in >> general, then please lend your support by endorsing the statement and >> signing the letter, and replying to the person who has sent you the email so >> that signatures can be collated. >> >> Please feel free to forward this to friends and colleagues who will be >> interested, and get back to me when you get signatures from them, latest by >> Wednesday the 13th of October, 2010. >> >> >> Sincerely, >> Shashank >> >> >> >> The letter: >> >> >> >> To, >> >> The Governor of Maharashtra, >> Address >> >> >> Cc: >> >> The Vice Chancellor, >> University of Mumbai, >> Address >> >> The Chairman of the University Grants Commission, >> Address >> >> >> >> Subject: Statement of Opposition Against the Vice-Chancellor’s Decision to >> Drop Such A Long Journey from the SYBA English Syllabus of Mumbai University >> >> >> >> We, the undersigned condemn the undemocratic manner in which Rohintion >> Mistry’s novel Such A Long Journey has been omitted from the Second Year >> Bachelor of Arts (SYBA) English Literature syllabus of the University of >> Mumbai. >> >> >> >> We are disturbed and alarmed by the manner in which the Vice-Chancellor of >> the University, Dr. Rajan Welukar, bowed down to the demands of the >> Bharatiya Vidyarthi Sena (the student wing of the Shiv Sena) and had the >> novel dropped from the syllabus overnight, purely on account of the group’s >> displeasure with “anti Shiv Sena passages”; “derogatory references” to >> Mumbai’s dabbawalas, the Marathi Manoos and Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru; and >> “extremely obscene and vulgar language in its’ text”. >> >> >> >> While we do not deny that the BVS and its’ supporters have every right to >> be outraged by the contents of the novel, we strongly oppose the means which >> they have chosen to express their dissent, which includes burning copies of >> the book and the issuing of ultimatums not only for the VC to omit the text >> from the syllabus within 24 hours, but also to exclude the professors who >> included to text in the syllabus from any university work in the future. >> Furthermore, being keenly aware of the immense bureaucracy involved in the >> decision-making processes of the University, we question the nature of the >> administrative process which led to the book being dropped from the syllabus >> and demand that the details of the said proceedings be made public. >> >> >> >> Lastly, in the interest of upholding the democratic principles enshrined >> within the Indian Constitution, we demand that the novel be reinstated in >> the syllabus and urge the BVS and its’ supporters to initiate healthy and >> democratic debate regarding whether it deserves a place in the syllabus or >> not. >> >> >> >> Yours sincerely, >> >> >> Your name, College/Organisation name, Position/Department/Year, etc. >> >> Sincerely, >> >> >> > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From indersalim at gmail.com Mon Oct 11 23:19:50 2010 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 23:19:50 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Such A Long Journey dropped from Mumbai University's SYBA English Syllabus - St Xavier's College expresses dissent In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: " "The story is set in Bombay during the early seventies, at the time of India’s second war with Pakistan, in the days just before Indira Gandhi’s infamous emergency. Mistry portrays Indira as a power hungry statesman, a dictator in the making with police tactics and nepotism to champion the cause of her incapable son Sanjay. An intriguing tale that mixes politics, love, espionage, friendship, and fate, Such a long journey is also a profound, insightful outlook on the many troubles plaguing modern India. A fascinating read." On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 10:44 PM, geeta seshu wrote: >  Withdrawal of acclaimed book from Mumbai University curriculum: A cowardly > move >  A groundswell of opinion is building up against the move by the Mumbai > University’s Vice Chancellor to withdraw Rohinton Minstry’s book ‘Such a > long journey’ from the curriculum for undergraduates.  A Free Speech Hub > report > > http://www.thehoot.org/web/freetracker/story.php?storyid=165§ionId=9 > > On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 4:41 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > >> Dear all, >> >> Apropos of the barbaric move to drop Rohinton Mistry's 'Such a Long >> Journey' from the SYBA English Syllabus of Mumbai University - here are a >> set of links. And an online petition, that I would urge everyone to sign and >> circulate. >> >> best, >> >> Shuddha >> >> Begin forwarded message: >> >> From: peter griffin >>> Date: 11 October 2010 4:31:26 PM GMT+05:30 >>> To: "Griff's Picks" >>> Subject: Such A Long Journey dropped from Mumbai University's SYBA English >>> Syllabus - St Xavier's College expresses dissent >>> >>> See also: >>> http://stxaviers.net/noticeboard/node/230 >>> >>> http://www.hindustantimes.com/Citizens-protest-dropping-book-from-varsity-syllabus/Article1-611114.aspx >>> >>> http://www.mumbaimirror.com/article/15/20101010201010100933117653add10bf/Xavier%E2%80%99s-principal-takes-on-Sena-and-his-own-student.html >>> >>> >>> And the letter below is also at >>> http://www.petitiononline.com/SYBAban/petition.html should you wish to >>> sign it. >>> >>> To:  Governor of Maharashtra (Chancellor of the University of Mumbai) >>> Dear Friends, >>> >>> Please find included in this email is a letter that has been drafted to >>> express dissent with the manner in which the Vice-Chancellor of the >>> University of Mumbai has flouted administrative procedures and bypassed >>> academic bodies to omit a novel from the syllabus of English Literature for >>> SYBA in response to pressure from a political group. >>> >>> It is addressed to the Governor of Maharashtra, who is the Chancellor of >>> the University and copies will be marked to the VC and to the Chairman of >>> the University Grants Commission. >>> >>> If you strongly feel that voices of dissent need to emerge against the >>> shrinking democratic spaces within the university and the city of Mumbai in >>> general, then please lend your support by endorsing the statement and >>> signing the letter, and replying to the person who has sent you the email so >>> that signatures can be collated. >>> >>> Please feel free to forward this to friends and colleagues who will be >>> interested, and get back to me when you get signatures from them, latest by >>> Wednesday the 13th of October, 2010. >>> >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> Shashank >>> >>> >>> >>> The letter: >>> >>> >>> >>> To, >>> >>> The Governor of Maharashtra, >>> Address >>> >>> >>> Cc: >>> >>> The Vice Chancellor, >>> University of Mumbai, >>> Address >>> >>> The Chairman of the University Grants Commission, >>> Address >>> >>> >>> >>> Subject: Statement of Opposition Against the Vice-Chancellor’s Decision to >>> Drop Such A Long Journey from the SYBA English Syllabus of Mumbai University >>> >>> >>> >>> We, the undersigned condemn the undemocratic manner in which Rohintion >>> Mistry’s novel Such A Long Journey has been omitted from the Second Year >>> Bachelor of Arts (SYBA) English Literature syllabus of the University of >>> Mumbai. >>> >>> >>> >>> We are disturbed and alarmed by the manner in which the Vice-Chancellor of >>> the University, Dr. Rajan Welukar, bowed down to the demands of the >>> Bharatiya Vidyarthi Sena (the student wing of  the Shiv Sena) and had the >>> novel dropped from the syllabus overnight, purely on account of the group’s >>> displeasure with “anti Shiv Sena passages”; “derogatory references” to >>> Mumbai’s dabbawalas, the Marathi Manoos and Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru; and >>> “extremely obscene and vulgar language in its’ text”. >>> >>> >>> >>> While we do not deny that the BVS and its’ supporters have every right to >>> be outraged by the contents of the novel, we strongly oppose the means which >>> they have chosen to express their dissent, which includes burning copies of >>> the book and the issuing of ultimatums not only for the VC to omit the text >>> from the syllabus within 24 hours, but also to exclude the professors who >>> included to text in the syllabus from any university work in the future. >>> Furthermore, being keenly aware of the immense bureaucracy involved in the >>> decision-making processes of the University, we question the nature of the >>> administrative process which led to the book being dropped from the syllabus >>> and demand that the details of the said proceedings be made public. >>> >>> >>> >>> Lastly, in the interest of upholding the democratic principles enshrined >>> within the Indian Constitution, we demand that the novel be reinstated in >>> the syllabus and urge the BVS and its’ supporters  to initiate healthy and >>> democratic debate regarding whether it deserves a place in the syllabus or >>> not. >>> >>> >>> >>> Yours sincerely, >>> >>> >>> Your name, College/Organisation name, Position/Department/Year, etc. >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> >>> >>> >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >> Raqs Media Collective >> shuddha at sarai.net >> www.sarai.net >> www.raqsmediacollective.net >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From adityarajbaul at gmail.com Tue Oct 12 01:35:19 2010 From: adityarajbaul at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Baul) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 01:35:19 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Dr Kaul, Geelani's saviour Message-ID: The Kashmiri Pandit who saved Geelani's life October 11, 2010 19:00 IST http://news.rediff.com/special/2010/oct/11/special-kashmiri-pandit-who-saved-separatist-leader-geelanis-life.htm Dr Sameer Kaul, a Kashmiri Pandit and Hurriyat leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani's [ Images ] personal physician, speaks about the other side of the hardline separatist. Two men at the heart of Kashmiri separatism -- hardliner Syed Ali Shah Geelani and Yasin Malik, leader of the Jammu and Kashmir [ Images ] Liberation Front -- are alive today thanks to doctors from the Kashmiri Pandit community, which was forced to flee the valley with the onslaught of militancy in 1989. Some years ago, a team of three doctors performed life-saving surgery on Geelani, now 81, in Mumbai [ Images ] after he was diagnosed with cancer. Geelani survives on three-fourth of a kidney, and one of the doctors is now his personal physician. As someone who interacts with Geelani regularly, Dr Sameer Kaul is probably better placed than anyone else to observe the real man behind the stubborn politician we know about. Speaking to Rediff.com's Krishnakumar Padmanabhan, not only does Dr Kaul give us an intimate view of Geelani, he also provides valuable insights into the current unrest, and how Delhi [ Images ] can rectify mistakes of the past. I am quite close to Geelanisaab, as a doctor should be. But my interaction with him is mostly restricted to medical discourse. As a person, he is non-corrupt and upright. He has conviction. He is disciplined and is a very meagre eater. He doesn't follow the philosophy of consumption in life. He is satisfied with the basic things. That must have helped him in becoming incorruptible. I didn't know him personally before the surgery. In my childhood, I used to ask my father who he was. My father used to say he is the man who says 'Kashmir banega Pakistan.' Such a man is anathema for me. But when I saw that even after 20 years he had not changed his stand and said the same thing, I respect that. When we met he started by offering me my fee. I reminded him about this and told him that I respect him for his steadfastness though I did not agree with his philosophy. He just had a smile and kept quiet. He was called for a interview before that for a US visa. When he was asked questions about his political beliefs, he said he is against American policy. He was very forthright. What does that tell you? He didn't lie for the sake of going to the US. He is beyond that. There are very few things you can hide from your doctor. So I can vouch that he lives a spartan life and so does his family. After an operation in Delhi, he was living in a cramped quarters with his daughter in Malviya Nagar. I warned him he might get an infection. But he told me that if he shifted, his daughter might be heartbroken that her house was not good enough for her father and he stayed put. Such a fellow has to be humane. Things like this is why I find a large part of his public image discordant. He is always with a smile. He is not a wimpy patient. I do not concern myself with his political affiliation and ideology, but I find him to be an honest and sincere man to his people, which is a far cry from what we get these days. Eighty per cent of Kashmiris will not agree with his ideology, but they respect him for being non-corrupt. They have seen all their other leaders get corrupted at some point or the other. In these two decades of strife, he is the only guy whose influence and respect among the people has only increased. I have seen all the chief ministers of the state in recent times and interacted with almost every other politician. I think a major reason for that is that he is not concerned with petty politicking and doesn't get down to the nitty-gritty. He keeps reading and writing books, and is busy translating Islamic texts. He lives in a spartan home. A lot of people put up spartan exteriors, but are quite different on the inside. But in his case, having been close to him for two decades, he is nothing like that. And you can't hide those things forever. I think he is a man of convictions who has been forced into a particular situation. I admire him for sticking to it. I don't know too many politicians who stick to their convictions for long. To top that, he is extremely humble and not greedy. He is not into dynastics and does not seek any favours for his children or sons-in-law. Neither is he into shady deals nor does he have any secret benami property. One thing I have always thought is that he was never handled well. He was just labeled as an anti-India hawk and thus, he continues to be called so. In reality he is quite a soft guy. I do not agree with the picture that is being painted about him. I think he has always been put in a reactionary situation -- you do something and he has no way else but to react to it. He has always been pushed to a corner, where the only thing that he can do is react in the way he has. He has been demonised throughout. I don't think he had any option. There is also the angle that he is the only one who did not bend and dance to your (New Delhi's) tunes. I have so many patients who have seen him and they can't believe he is the same guy they see and hear about in the news. I am basically a Sufi at heart. Which is not what he adheres to, and I don't mix two things together. We disagreed only once. There was a Sufi saint who died three months ago. They used to call him the naked fakir. Hindus, Muslims, and Sikhs throng to his place. I visited him often. Once he (Geelani) tried to tell me that it was not right. I told him it was my philosophy and was best left alone. After that, not once did he ever touch that topic. Among his greatest strengths are that he is humble, sober, incorruptible, and a man of principles, convictions and discipline. In the last 18 years, I have been doing a free (medical) camp in Srinagar [ Images ]. I don't think even a Muslim politician can venture out today. If you go on to the roads, you can be pulled out and skinned. For a Kashmiri Pandit to tell you that, it has a big meaning. A part of it is that what you give is what comes back to you. When I conduct my camps -- I don't take any security with me as I have never perceived a threat -- never do I get the feeling of not being wanted. I think it is because I do not believe Kashmiris are fundamentalists. Only 10 to 15 per cent are. What is actually happening on the ground is that a sustained class war is going on there. Simultaneously, there is also the phenomenon of one kind of Islam trying to overtake another kind of Sufi Islam. In the last 15 days I have heard from many Kashmiri friends that their houses are being targeted. What is happening is that a frustrated section is taking out its anger on a well-off section. He doesn't like what he sees, and so sets out to destroy it. What worries me is that it is now even worse than 1989. Then, a lot of people got into it because there was a romanticism associated with it. Today, what you see is extreme anger. The central political system was in deep slumber. Everything was going on under the surface and nobody woke up to it. Regarding Geelani's role in the current unrest, I am sure a lot of what is happening outside is beyond his control. He wouldn't get children out (on the streets of Kashmir), that is absolutely not on in his book. I can't believe that. I don't think that can be true. He appealed for calm and there was a lot of dissent against that. I can't speak about where is it coming from and who is supporting that. I still maintain my home in Srinagar. I have not moved out. I am part of that society. As to whether he had a role in the persecution of Pandits, when there is a mass exodus, massive things happen on a large scale, you can't single out things. You have to rise above these things. And if he was so anti-Pandit he wouldn't have come to me. I am a neutral Sufi. I believe he probably participated in the movement against the Pandits because his philosophy is fundamentalist. But there is an action-reaction situation also. The Pandits, while they were there, did not exactly have a positive disposition towards him ever. When you get relegated to a corner, you realise there is only one place open. You stay alive and occupy the space. Regarding the way he was treated he speaks about past experiences when he says he was approached, but things never happened. Had he been approached and accommodated, we would not be here today. All the time that the valley was fine, the government did nothing. We are only worried when the house catches fire. And people also realise that to get your attention, they have to burn something. This is the same story in the Maoist belt also if I am not mistaken. When it comes to Kashmir, I believe in soft power, which is the non-political space. It is non-utilised in Kashmir. We have only shown the hard face of India [ Images ] to the Kashmiris. If you realise the way our government functions it is not exactly a straightforward situation. As a nation -- this is my personal view -- we have never had a comprehensive and continuous policy towards Kashmir. It changes with various desks that handle Kashmir, and has always been discontinuous. If you talk about indoctrination, that starts at the age of 4 in rural schools. But we have never had a comprehensive group of dedicated people whose only motive is to keep Kashmir with the Union. Had that happened, would we be in this situation today after 63 years? THE GEELANI INTERVIEWS: 2000: 'They are killing the democracy in Kashmir to save the democracy in India' 2002: 'India has to accept Kashmir as a disputed territory' 2004: 'LoC will be dismantled like the Berlin Wall' 2008: 'Why object to Islamic rule in Kashmir?' From shuddha at sarai.net Tue Oct 12 01:16:22 2010 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 01:16:22 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Kashmiri Pandit who saved SAS Geelani's life (from Rediff.Com) Message-ID: <9E3B5D2B-D6D1-405C-B4A7-CC0FEFC9D9E0@sarai.net> An interesting perspective from an unusual quarter. --------- The Kashmiri Pandit who saved Geelani's life Rediff.com October 11, 2010 19:00 IST Dr. Sameer Kaul, speaking to Krishnakumar Padmanabhan http://news.rediff.com/special/2010/oct/11/special-kashmiri-pandit- who-saved-separatist-leader-geelanis-life.htm Dr Sameer Kaul, a Kashmiri Pandit and Hurriyat leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani's personal physician, speaks about the other side of the hardline separatist. Two men at the heart of Kashmiri separatism -- hardliner Syed Ali Shah Geelani and Yasin Malik, leader of the Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front -- are alive today thanks to doctors from the Kashmiri Pandit community, which was forced to flee the valley with the onslaught of militancy in 1989.Some years ago, a team of three doctors performed life-saving surgery on Geelani, now 81, in Mumbai after he was diagnosed with cancer.Geelani survives on three-fourth of a kidney, and one of the doctors is now his personal physician. As someone who interacts with Geelani regularly, Dr Sameer Kaul is probably better placed than anyone else to observe the real man behind the stubborn politician we know about. Speaking to Rediff.com's Krishnakumar Padmanabhan, not only does Dr Kaul give us an intimate view of Geelani, he also provides valuable insights into the current unrest, and how Delhi can rectify mistakes of the past. I am quite close to Geelanisaab, as a doctor should be. But my interaction with him is mostly restricted to medical discourse.As a person, he is non-corrupt and upright. He has conviction. He is disciplined and is a very meagre eater. He doesn't follow the philosophy of consumption in life. He is satisfied with the basic things.That must have helped him in becoming incorruptible. I didn't know him personally before the surgery.In my childhood, I used to ask my father who he was. My father used to say he is the man who says 'Kashmir banega Pakistan.' Such a man is anathema for me. But when I saw that even after 20 years he had not changed his stand and said the same thing, I respect that. When we met he started by offering me my fee. I reminded him about this and told him that I respect him for his steadfastness though I did not agree with his philosophy. He just had a smile and kept quiet. He was called for a interview before that for a US visa. When he was asked questions about his political beliefs, he said he is against American policy. He was very forthright. What does that tell you? He didn't lie for the sake of going to the US. He is beyond that. There are very few things you can hide from your doctor. So I can vouch that he lives a spartan life and so does his family. After an operation in Delhi, he was living in a cramped quarters with his daughter in Malviya Nagar. I warned him he might get an infection. But he told me that if he shifted, his daughter might be heartbroken that her house was not good enough for her father and he stayed put. Such a fellow has to be humane. Things like this is why I find a large part of his public image discordant. He is always with a smile. He is not a wimpy patient. I do not concern myself with his political affiliation and ideology, but I find him to be an honest and sincere man to his people, which is a far cry from what we get these days. Eighty per cent of Kashmiris will not agree with his ideology, but they respect him for being non-corrupt.They have seen all their other leaders get corrupted at some point or the other. In these two decades of strife, he is the only guy whose influence and respect among the people has only increased. have seen all the chief ministers of the state in recent times and interacted with almost every other politician.I think a major reason for that is that he is not concerned with petty politicking and doesn't get down to the nitty-gritty. He keeps reading and writing books, and is busy translating Islamic texts. He lives in a spartan home. A lot of people put up spartan exteriors, but are quite different on the inside. But in his case, having been close to him for two decades, he is nothing like that. And you can't hide those things forever. I think he is a man of convictions who has been forced into a particular situation. I admire him for sticking to it. I don't know too many politicians who stick to their convictions for long.To top that, he is extremely humble and not greedy. He is not into dynastics and does not seek any favours for his children or sons- in-law. Neither is he into shady deals nor does he have any secret benami property. One thing I have always thought is that he was never handled well. He was just labeled as an anti-India hawk and thus, he continues to be called so. In reality he is quite a soft guy. I do not agree with the picture that is being painted about him. I think he has always been put in a reactionary situation -- you do something and he has no way else but to react to it. He has always been pushed to a corner, where the only thing that he can do is react in the way he has. He has been demonised throughout. I don't think he had any option. There is also the angle that he is the only one who did not bend and dance to your (New Delhi's) tunes. I have so many patients who have seen him and they can't believe he is the same guy they see and hear about in the news. I am basically a Sufi at heart. Which is not what he adheres to, and I don't mix two things together. We disagreed only once. There was a Sufi saint who died three months ago. They used to call him the naked fakir. Hindus, Muslims, and Sikhs throng to his place. I visited him often. Once he (Geelani) tried to tell me that it was not right. I told him it was my philosophy and was best left alone. After that, not once did he ever touch that topic. Among his greatest strengths are that he is humble, sober, incorruptible, and a man of principles, convictions and discipline. In the last 18 years, I have been doing a free (medical) camp in Srinagar. I don't think even a Muslim politician can venture out today. If you go on to the roads, you can be pulled out and skinned. For a Kashmiri Pandit to tell you that, it has a big meaning. A part of it is that what you give is what comes back to you. When I conduct my camps -- I don't take any security with me as I have never perceived a threat -- never do I get the feeling of not being wanted. I think it is because I do not believe Kashmiris are fundamentalists. Only 10 to 15 per cent are. What is actually happening on the ground is that a sustained class war is going on there. Simultaneously, there is also the phenomenon of one kind of Islam trying to overtake another kind of Sufi Islam. In the last 15 days I have heard from many Kashmiri friends that their houses are being targeted. What is happening is that a frustrated section is taking out its anger on a well-off section. He doesn't like what he sees, and so sets out to destroy it. What worries me is that it is now even worse than 1989. Then, a lot of people got into it because there was a romanticism associated with it. Today, what you see is extreme anger. The central political system was in deep slumber. Everything was going on under the surface and nobody woke up to it. Regarding Geelani's role in the current unrest, I am sure a lot of what is happening outside is beyond his control. He wouldn't get children out (on the streets of Kashmir), that is absolutely not on in his book. I can't believe that. I don't think that can be true. He appealed for calm and there was a lot of dissent against that. I can't speak about where is it coming from and who is supporting that. I still maintain my home in Srinagar. I have not moved out. I am part of that society. As to whether he had a role in the persecution of Pandits, when there is a mass exodus, massive things happen on a large scale, you can't single out things. You have to rise above these things. And if he was so anti-Pandit he wouldn't have come to me. I am a neutral Sufi. I believe he probably participated in the movement against the Pandits because his philosophy is fundamentalist. But there is an action- reaction situation also. The Pandits, while they were there, did not exactly have a positive disposition towards him ever. When you get relegated to a corner, you realise there is only one place open. You stay alive and occupy the space. Regarding the way he was treated he speaks about past experiences when he says he was approached, but things never happened.Had he been approached and accommodated, we would not be here today. All the time that the valley was fine, the government did nothing. We are only worried when the house catches fire. And people also realise that to get your attention, they have to burn something. This is the same story in the Maoist belt also if I am not mistaken. When it comes to Kashmir, I believe in soft power, which is the non- political space. It is non-utilised in Kashmir. We have only shown the hard face of India to the Kashmiris. If you realise the way our government functions it is not exactly a straightforward situation. As a nation -- this is my personal view -- we have never had a comprehensive and continuous policy towards Kashmir. It changes with various desks that handle Kashmir, and has always been discontinuous. If you talk about indoctrination, that starts at the age of 4 in rural schools. But we have never had a comprehensive group of dedicated people whose only motive is to keep Kashmir with the Union. Had that happened, would we be in this situation today after 63 years? Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Tue Oct 12 11:58:13 2010 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 11:58:13 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] UN sponsors secessionists in New Delhi Message-ID: *UN sponsors secessionists* October 12, 2010 Link - http://www.dailypioneer.com/289200/UN-sponsors-secessionists.html *Sandhya Jain* *Anti-India venom was in full flow at a recent ‘seminar’ organised by UN in Delhi to promote Kashmiri separatists and their agenda* United Nations Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon reflected the growing Anglo-American itch to interfere in Jammu & Kashmir with his recent comments about the need to end the unrest in the Valley, hints about expansion of the Security Council and the pious hope that India and Pakistan would furnish an ‘official request’ for the UN to play a role in Kashmir. He did admit India was a victim of international terrorism but declined to identify its source. Mr Ban Ki-moon’s denial that the UN was planning to interfere in Jammu & Kashmir followed strong private (possibly also official) protests over the UN Information Centre’s ill-conceived decision to host an *India Ragdo *(crush India)-type of seminar in its official premises on September 29. Touted as a dialogue, *Sisters for Peace: Voices from Kashmir*, the seminar was organised by the Women’s Initiative for Peace in South Asia, the National Foundation for India and the UN Information Centre. The invitees were rabid secessionist women from Srinagar; the panelists were proudly anti-Hindu Left-liberals in whose ranks minority speakers and panelists could disguise their politico-religious agendas. The zero representation provided to other stakeholders — nationalist Indian Hindus, ousted Kashmiri Pandits, Jammu Hindus, Sikhs from Kashmir Valley and Jammu Province, Buddhists from Ladakh, Shia and tribal Muslims from all parts of the State — made the seminar possibly the most blatant instance of a Dialogue Minus the Nation. It was brazenly for and about Sunni Muslims of the Valley. So startlingly upfront was its political intent to promote the Syed Ali Shah Geelani faction of Hurriyat Conference that New Delhi must demand an official inquiry and transfer of UN officials who approved the decision to host it and cleared the list of invitees and panelists. I noted the presence of one Anna Stanhammar, who maintained discreet silence and left before the arrival of the Union Home Secretary, who was invited to accept the seminar’s recommendations. The seminar’s slant was obvious from the extreme impatience towards the few dissident voices. Mr Sajjad of Kargil, Ladakh, protested that “only the Valley wants *azadi... *We are suffering, tourist buses are being attacked and sent back, but we do not want *azadi... *The (all-party) peace delegation never came to us”. He was rudely asked to “shut up”. A Pandit refugee said the mass exodus of four lakh Hindus in 1990 was to erase the Indian identity and pluralism of Kashmir Valley. It was followed by further massacres such as 1997 Sangrampura, then Nandimarg, then Chittisingpora, and now the Sikhs have got an ultimatum. When he said a nurse called Sarla Bhatt, who kept a tab on the militants, was cut into two pieces, he was simply silenced. Thereafter, Ms Meenakshi Gopinath (a candidate for the Vice-Chancellor’s job in Delhi University from which post her insidious agenda can be promoted more vigorously), advised speakers to “stop the litany of injustices and break out of victimhood”. This sage counsel was exclusive to Hindus; all Kashmiri Muslim women were given the liberty to defame the security forces and demand secession from India. Following this homily, Ms Anjum Zamarud Habib of the Geelani Hurriyat faction made an intensely political speech, calling India a ‘slave nation’ and demanding that Jammu & Kashmir be seen as an issue of self-determination and not law and order. “Boys with stones in their hands can never be defeated. I tell you, they can never be defeated.” Her thundering declamation astonished even the organisers who asked her to wind up, at which she retorted, “I will not speak at all if you stop me.” They were cowed and never stopped a single Muslim speaker thereafter. She continued, “Young boys are carrying coffins on their shoulders daily, women are dishonoured, men are alive to take revenge — that is the reality.” Attempts by a retired General and a CRPF officer to correct this mischief were treated with polite disdain. Another woman said they had a right to protest against India. “*Hamara buniyadi haq hai azadi*.” She was allowed to show a film clip of Syed Ali Shah Geelani and what purported to be Army violence (actually patrolling) in the streets. Then she chanted slogans for secession from India, to which Ms Nancy Kaul, convener, Daughters of Vitasta, took strong objection. At this disruption, Ms Sayeda Hameed, Member, Planning Commission, of Minister of State rank, came rushing across the hall with Ms Mohini Giri, former chairperson, National Women’s Commission, and daughter-in-law of late President VV Giri. Walking past the shouting secessionist, both women made straight for Ms Kaul and made her sit down, even as the separatist continued her anti-India diatribe. When the commotion settled, this writer raised a point of order: “This was supposed to be a non-political seminar, yet provocative political speeches preaching secession have been made in the presence of a serving Member of the Planning Commission and a former chairperson of the National Women’s Commission; can you two ladies please clarify your position on the same?” At this, Ms Hameed clammed up, while Ms Giri pleaded, “She has the right to speak, my daughter, let us listen to all.” A rabid woman journalist piped up, “We cannot isolate Zamruda; they all speak like this in Srinagar and the streets of Kashmir.” Emboldened, Ms Quratulain, a teacher in a Government college in Srinagar, asserted that Jammu & Kashmir was a 60-year-old problem, especially in the last two decades and again the last four months. Since the death of a youth in June this year, she said, “no MLA can face the mob and go to his constituency. India cannot keep Jammu & Kashmir without use of force. The youth are on the side of Geelani, education and development are rejected by Jammu & Kashmir...” Since this anti-national seminar got its weight from women holding Government posts, the Union Government needs to examine the sedition laws and take appropriate action. Finalising the recommendations to submit to the Union Home Secretary (whom UN officials failed to alert regarding the content of the proceedings), Ms Hameed endorsed Ms Jyotsna Chatterjee’s suggestion of peace committees on the pattern of East Timor. Surely she is aware that the UN partitioned Indonesia in violation of its Charter which states that it will not promote secessionist tendencies in any member state? Former Member of Parliament Subhasini Ali said interlocutors being appointed by the Union Home Ministry must include 50 per cent women. It is our considered opinion that none of those present at the seminar are eligible for a mission to rescue the nation. From javedmasoo at gmail.com Tue Oct 12 12:17:08 2010 From: javedmasoo at gmail.com (Javed) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 12:17:08 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] "Return Hindu shrines to Dalits, Buddhists" Message-ID: Before Hindus and Muslims can decide on this matter, the dalits or neo-Buddhists may like to stake their claim, since they believe all major Hindu temples have been built after destroying ancient Buddhist sites. Why didn't Mayawati think of building a memorial to Kanshi Ram on the disputed Ayodhya site. ---- Return Hindu shrines: Dalits OUR SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT New Delhi, Oct. 8: Call it the Babri verdict fallout: a group of Dalit rights activists has decided to approach the government demanding that Buddha and Jain viharas that have been converted to Hindu temples should be returned to the original owners. The group, made up of Ambedkar followers, academics, advocates and activists, has also decided to approach the Supreme Court with the demand. Several Buddha and Jain viharas were there in the country from sixth century BC to 13th century AD, which were later converted into Hindu temples by placing idols in them, the group said. Now that Allahabad High Court has given Hindus two-thirds of the land on which Babri Masjid stood on the ground that there was a temple at the site before the mosque was constructed, all those viharas should also be returned, they argued. According to M.S. Jayaprakash, a historian, the temples at Tirupati, Kashi, Sabarimala, Guruvayoor and Palani were once Buddhist temples. Even Swami Vivekananda had revealed that the Puri Jagannath temple was originally a Buddhist temple, he said. Hundreds of Buddhist statues, stupas and viharas were destroyed in India between AD 830 and AD 966 in the name of Hindu revivalism, Jayaprakash said. Literary and archaeological sources within and outside India speak of this, he added. Other members of the group include “Dalit Bandhu” N.K. Jose, Bhim Jayaraj and Vijay Shekhar. The group is planning to meet BSP chief Mayavati. “We hope that Mayavati, whose vote bank is largely made up of Dalits and neo-Buddhists, will be receptive to the idea. The issue is both political and religious — a deadly concoction which no politician can afford to neglect,” said one activist. http://www.telegraphindia.com/1101009/jsp/nation/story_13037587.jsp From shashidhar at butterfliesindia.org Tue Oct 12 12:32:10 2010 From: shashidhar at butterfliesindia.org (Shashidhar) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 12:32:10 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] "Return Hindu shrines to Dalits, Buddhists" In-Reply-To: <381F7CF29A004D33896DC94CE2B79AEF@butterfliesdelhi.local> References: <381F7CF29A004D33896DC94CE2B79AEF@butterfliesdelhi.local> Message-ID: <005901cb69db$63f1b3d0$2bd51b70$@butterfliesindia.org> Javed All major hindu temples? Dalits and neo Buddhists are not hindus? Hindus destroyed other hindu temples from sixth century BC to 13th Century AD, Several Buddhist viharas were converted by placing hindu idols ( where when how, one of the dashavtaras is Buddha, Read some shankara you will know better) According to M.S. Jayaprakash, a historian, the temples at Tirupati, Kashi, Sabarimala, Guruvayoor and Palani were once Buddhist temples. Even Swami Vivekananda had revealed that the Puri Jagannath temple was originally a Buddhist temple, he said. Did you conduct any research before posting this..... Read about tirupati, Palani and guruvayoor on something as simple as Wikipedia and you will know a lot more. There are about 1000 temples in Kashi which one is Mr. JP talking about... Peace. There is no god, science has proved it, there is no god and people who believe in the power of prayer are at best delusional, it is though not correct to twist and turn history to suit our present delusions. Shashi -----Original Message----- From: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net [mailto:reader-list-bounces at sarai.net] On Behalf Of Javed Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 12:31 PM To: sarai list Subject: [Reader-list] "Return Hindu shrines to Dalits, Buddhists" Before Hindus and Muslims can decide on this matter, the dalits or neo-Buddhists may like to stake their claim, since they believe all major Hindu temples have been built after destroying ancient Buddhist sites. Why didn't Mayawati think of building a memorial to Kanshi Ram on the disputed Ayodhya site. ---- Return Hindu shrines: Dalits OUR SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT New Delhi, Oct. 8: Call it the Babri verdict fallout: a group of Dalit rights activists has decided to approach the government demanding that Buddha and Jain viharas that have been converted to Hindu temples should be returned to the original owners. The group, made up of Ambedkar followers, academics, advocates and activists, has also decided to approach the Supreme Court with the demand. Several Buddha and Jain viharas were there in the country from sixth century BC to 13th century AD, which were later converted into Hindu temples by placing idols in them, the group said. Now that Allahabad High Court has given Hindus two-thirds of the land on which Babri Masjid stood on the ground that there was a temple at the site before the mosque was constructed, all those viharas should also be returned, they argued. According to M.S. Jayaprakash, a historian, the temples at Tirupati, Kashi, Sabarimala, Guruvayoor and Palani were once Buddhist temples. Even Swami Vivekananda had revealed that the Puri Jagannath temple was originally a Buddhist temple, he said. Hundreds of Buddhist statues, stupas and viharas were destroyed in India between AD 830 and AD 966 in the name of Hindu revivalism, Jayaprakash said. Literary and archaeological sources within and outside India speak of this, he added. Other members of the group include “Dalit Bandhu” N.K. Jose, Bhim Jayaraj and Vijay Shekhar. The group is planning to meet BSP chief Mayavati. “We hope that Mayavati, whose vote bank is largely made up of Dalits and neo-Buddhists, will be receptive to the idea. The issue is both political and religious — a deadly concoction which no politician can afford to neglect,” said one activist. http://www.telegraphindia.com/1101009/jsp/nation/story_13037587.jsp _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From patrice at xs4all.nl Tue Oct 12 12:48:44 2010 From: patrice at xs4all.nl (Patrice Riemens) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 09:18:44 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] Xavier's principal takes on Sena and his own student (Rohinton Mistry's book banning row) Message-ID: Bwo Goanet/ Robert Dsouza http://www.mumbaimirror.com/index.aspx?page=article§id=15&contentid=20101010201010100933117653add10bf Xavier's principal takes on Sena and his own student Just a week after Mumbai Mirror reported how Rohinton Mistry's Booker-nominated novel Such a Long Journey was dropped from Mumbai University's curriculum following pressure from Shiv Sena leader Aditya Thackeray, the budding Sena leader's own college has struck a defiant note, questioning the rationale of banning a work of literature "merely because it dares to critique us." In a notice put on St. Xavier's college's web site, principal Dr Frazer Mascarenhas S J has expressed his displeasure at Mumbai University's decision to withdraw a book just because it carries a few passages critical of Sena's violent ways. Dr Frazer Mascarenhas Not mincing words, the notice says that while the book does reflect critically on political parties of all hues and in particular deplores the threats of violence unleashed in the 1970s by a particular party, "it is inconceivable that in the 21st century, a political outfit will not show the maturity to accept criticism and answer it by the evidence of its own actions." The notice adds that the management, staff and students of the college read with consternation Mumbai Mirror's October 2 report on the "emergency withdrawal" of Rohinton's book by the university. "The book in question has not evoked any controversy in civil society and is considered an example of excellent literature, recounting life as lived by the common men and women of our time," the notice says. Mistry, whose book has been translated into German, Swedish, Norwegian and Danish and has won several awards, is an alumnus of St Xavier?s college, where Aditya Thackeray is a final-year student of history. Thackeray, who is likely to be launched as leader of the Sena?s youth wing at the party?s Dussera rally later this month, had asked the party's students wing, Bharatiya Vidyarthi Sena, to launch a protest against the book. While he himself did not participate in the agitation, BVS burnt copies of the novel and petitioned Mumbai University's vice-chancellor Dr Rajan Welukar to drop it from the second-year syllabus. The very next day the university bowed down to this demand and issued notices to all colleges dropping the novel from the syllabus, regardless of the fact that it was mid-term, and papers for the first semester were already set. Aditya Thackeray A Xavier's teacher, who did not wish to be identified, said he was surprised that the book was withdrawn by the university without any debate. "It was like some sort of emergency that had been created. All groups do have a right to debate, but what were the compelling circumstances for the book to be withdrawn like this," he asked. Another teacher from a renowned college in south Mumbai said the university's decision to withdraw the book smacked of a lack of conviction on the part of the university. "The book was on the syllabus for four years. Before a book is included in the syllabus, there is a thorough procedure that is followed. How can you suddenly withdraw it because a political party so demands," he said. Such A Long Journey, set in the backdrop of the events of 1971, chronicles the story of Gustad Noble, a Byculla-born Parsi, and his personal struggle with what is right and wrong. The superbly evocative book has been routinely listed as one of the best books on Bombay/Mumbai along with Salman Rushdie's Midnight's Children. Aditya Thackeray did not respond to repeated calls from this reporter. Messages left on his cellphone too went unanswered. *MLA's stinker to Welukar* In a strongly worded letter to Mumbai University Vice-Chancellor Rajan Welukar, Awhad said, "You have shown the courage of withdrawing a book from the syllabus on the pretext of obscenity in it. I cannot praise you enough as each time the son of a political leader does not like a particular book, you will ban it." The letter also suggested that Welukar should hold a seminar at a five-star hotel where he can summon the sons of biggies and have a discussion on the books in the syllabus. "This means you will not have to remove any book from the syllabus and it will save you the trouble of pleasing a big man's son," the letter added. From taraprakash at gmail.com Tue Oct 12 19:47:45 2010 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 10:17:45 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Xavier's principal takes on Sena and his own student (Rohinton Mistry's book banning row) References: Message-ID: Well appeasement is part of Indian politics and universities are just part of it. We have to ban the sale of books like Satanic Verses and Lajja let alone include them in any syllabus. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patrice Riemens" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 3:18 AM Subject: [Reader-list] Xavier's principal takes on Sena and his own student (Rohinton Mistry's book banning row) > Bwo Goanet/ Robert Dsouza > > > http://www.mumbaimirror.com/index.aspx?page=article§id=15&contentid=20101010201010100933117653add10bf > > Xavier's principal takes on Sena and his own student > > Just a week after Mumbai Mirror reported how Rohinton Mistry's > Booker-nominated novel Such a Long Journey was dropped from Mumbai > University's curriculum following pressure from Shiv Sena leader Aditya > Thackeray, the budding Sena leader's own college has struck a defiant > note, > questioning the rationale of banning a work of literature "merely because > it > dares to critique us." > > In a notice put on St. Xavier's college's web site, principal Dr Frazer > Mascarenhas S J has expressed his displeasure at Mumbai University's > decision to withdraw a book just because it carries a few passages > critical > of Sena's violent ways. > > Dr Frazer Mascarenhas > > Not mincing words, the notice says that while the book does reflect > critically on political parties of all hues and in particular deplores the > threats of violence unleashed in the 1970s by a particular party, "it is > inconceivable that in the 21st century, a political outfit will not show > the > maturity to accept criticism and answer it by the evidence of its own > actions." > > The notice adds that the management, staff and students of the college > read > with consternation Mumbai Mirror's October 2 report on the "emergency > withdrawal" of Rohinton's book by the university. > > "The book in question has not evoked any controversy in civil society and > is > considered an example of excellent literature, recounting life as lived by > the common men and women of our time," the notice says. > > Mistry, whose book has been translated into German, Swedish, Norwegian and > Danish and has won several awards, is an alumnus of St Xavier?s college, > where Aditya Thackeray is a final-year student of history. > > Thackeray, who is likely to be launched as leader of the Sena?s youth wing > at the party?s Dussera rally later this month, had asked the party's > students wing, Bharatiya Vidyarthi Sena, to launch a protest against the > book. > > While he himself did not participate in the agitation, BVS burnt copies of > the novel and petitioned Mumbai University's vice-chancellor Dr Rajan > Welukar to drop it from the second-year syllabus. > > The very next day the university bowed down to this demand and issued > notices to all colleges dropping the novel from the syllabus, regardless > of > the fact that it was mid-term, and papers for the first semester were > already set. > > Aditya Thackeray > > A Xavier's teacher, who did not wish to be identified, said he was > surprised > that the book was withdrawn by the university without any debate. "It was > like some sort of emergency that had been created. All groups do have a > right to debate, but what were the compelling circumstances for the book > to > be withdrawn like this," he asked. > > Another teacher from a renowned college in south Mumbai said the > university's decision to withdraw the book smacked of a lack of conviction > on the part of the university. > > "The book was on the syllabus for four years. Before a book is included in > the syllabus, there is a thorough procedure that is followed. How can you > suddenly withdraw it because a political party so demands," he said. > > Such A Long Journey, set in the backdrop of the events of 1971, chronicles > the story of Gustad Noble, a Byculla-born Parsi, and his personal struggle > with what is right and wrong. > > The superbly evocative book has been routinely listed as one of the best > books on Bombay/Mumbai along with Salman Rushdie's Midnight's Children. > > Aditya Thackeray did not respond to repeated calls from this reporter. > Messages left on his cellphone too went unanswered. > > *MLA's stinker to Welukar* > > In a strongly worded letter to Mumbai University Vice-Chancellor Rajan > Welukar, Awhad said, "You have shown the courage of withdrawing a book > from > the syllabus on the pretext of obscenity in it. I cannot praise you enough > as each time the son of a political leader does not like a particular > book, > you will ban it." > > The letter also suggested that Welukar should hold a seminar at a > five-star > hotel where he can summon the sons of biggies and have a discussion on the > books in the syllabus. "This means you will not have to remove any book > from > the syllabus and it will save you the trouble of pleasing a big man's > son," > the letter added. > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From javedmasoo at gmail.com Tue Oct 12 23:09:07 2010 From: javedmasoo at gmail.com (Javed) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 23:09:07 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] "Return Hindu shrines to Dalits, Buddhists" In-Reply-To: <005901cb69db$63f1b3d0$2bd51b70$@butterfliesindia.org> References: <381F7CF29A004D33896DC94CE2B79AEF@butterfliesdelhi.local> <005901cb69db$63f1b3d0$2bd51b70$@butterfliesindia.org> Message-ID: Dear Shashi You say science has proved there is no god, but you are still concerned about the Hinduness of temples and neo-Buddhists. Why? I did not conduct any research before posting this - I have only forwarded a news item from the Daily Telegraph (its link is given at the bottom). The problem is that I have a Muslim name, hence I shouldn't be making such a comment (many people will kill me), but if you go beyond the wikipedia knowlegde, you will come to know that Gautam Buddha could never be the Dashavatara - he was himself agains all sorts of avataras and deities and divinities. I don't need to read wikipedia to know this. It would be good to ask the Dalits and neo-Buddhists if they think they are Hindus. thanks Javed On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 12:32 PM, Shashidhar wrote: > Javed > > All major hindu temples? Dalits and neo Buddhists are not hindus? Hindus destroyed other hindu temples from sixth century BC to 13th Century AD, Several Buddhist viharas were converted by placing hindu idols ( where when how, one of the dashavtaras is Buddha, Read some shankara you will know better) > > According to M.S. Jayaprakash, a historian, the temples at Tirupati, Kashi, Sabarimala, Guruvayoor and Palani were once Buddhist temples. > Even Swami Vivekananda had revealed that the Puri Jagannath temple was originally a Buddhist temple, he said. > > Did you conduct any research before posting this..... > > Read about tirupati, Palani and guruvayoor on something as simple as Wikipedia and you will know a lot more. There are about 1000 temples in Kashi which one is Mr. JP talking about... > > Peace. > > There is no god, science has proved it, there is no god and people who believe in the power of prayer are at best delusional, it is though not correct to twist and turn history to suit our present delusions. > > Shashi > > -----Original Message----- > From: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net [mailto:reader-list-bounces at sarai.net] On Behalf Of Javed > Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 12:31 PM > To: sarai list > Subject: [Reader-list] "Return Hindu shrines to Dalits, Buddhists" > > Before Hindus and Muslims can decide on this matter, the dalits or neo-Buddhists may like to stake their claim, since they believe all major Hindu temples have been built after destroying ancient Buddhist sites. > > Why didn't Mayawati think of building a memorial to Kanshi Ram on the disputed Ayodhya site. > > ---- > > Return Hindu shrines: Dalits > OUR SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT > > New Delhi, Oct. 8: Call it the Babri verdict fallout: a group of Dalit rights activists has decided to approach the government demanding that Buddha and Jain viharas that have been converted to Hindu temples should be returned to the original owners. > > The group, made up of Ambedkar followers, academics, advocates and activists, has also decided to approach the Supreme Court with the demand. > > Several Buddha and Jain viharas were there in the country from sixth century BC to 13th century AD, which were later converted into Hindu temples by placing idols in them, the group said. > > Now that Allahabad High Court has given Hindus two-thirds of the land on which Babri Masjid stood on the ground that there was a temple at the site before the mosque was constructed, all those viharas should also be returned, they argued. > > According to M.S. Jayaprakash, a historian, the temples at Tirupati, Kashi, Sabarimala, Guruvayoor and Palani were once Buddhist temples. > Even Swami Vivekananda had revealed that the Puri Jagannath temple was originally a Buddhist temple, he said. > > Hundreds of Buddhist statues, stupas and viharas were destroyed in India between AD 830 and AD 966 in the name of Hindu revivalism, Jayaprakash said. Literary and archaeological sources within and outside India speak of this, he added. > > Other members of the group include “Dalit Bandhu” N.K. Jose, Bhim Jayaraj and Vijay Shekhar. > > The group is planning to meet BSP chief Mayavati. “We hope that Mayavati, whose vote bank is largely made up of Dalits and neo-Buddhists, will be receptive to the idea. The issue is both political and religious — a deadly concoction which no politician can afford to neglect,” said one activist. > > http://www.telegraphindia.com/1101009/jsp/nation/story_13037587.jsp > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > From shuddha at sarai.net Wed Oct 13 00:47:29 2010 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 00:47:29 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] "Return Hindu shrines to Dalits, Buddhists" In-Reply-To: References: <381F7CF29A004D33896DC94CE2B79AEF@butterfliesdelhi.local> <005901cb69db$63f1b3d0$2bd51b70$@butterfliesindia.org> Message-ID: <8383E314-B405-413F-A64F-22C9819C7E49@sarai.net> Dear Shashi, Javed and Prakash, Thanks for this interesting little exchange. One reason to demand that the ASI report on Ayodhya be made a public document, because, it actually suggests a lot going on 'below' the so-called Ram Janmabhoomi stratigraphic layer. It is one of the reasons, as any ASI old timer will tell you, why, the Ayodhya excavations were eventually abandoned and left incomplete by the ASI establishment, which was always partial to the Hindutva lobby. Hindutva advocates are actually quite uncomfortable with what is 'below' the Ram Janmabhoomi layer, because it would probably expose, as you rightly point out, the fact that the Ram Janmabhoomi layer is istelf founded on the destruction of what came previous to it - probably Buddhist or Jain remains. Now, if we take the faiths of those people who are not Hindus, but Buddhists, Jains etc, seriously, then, we have to, by the logic of the Alllahabad High Court judgement, actually prioritize those who might stake a claim to the pre-Ram Janmabhoomi layer. Shashi says - "one of the dashavtaras is Buddha, Read some shankara you will know better" - actually the story of how the Buddha became absorbed into the dashavatara of Vishnu pantheon is quite intriguing. A majority of the puranic and shastric sources that make this claim, do so, with a strangely twisted and perverted logic - and it goes somewhat like this - Vishnu was incarnated as Buddha in order to preach a false doctrine (read Buddhism) to the Asuras (demons) who had become very powerful through their diligent prayers and sacrifices. The Asuras, persuaded by what the Buddha taught, abandoned the Vedas, abandoned rituals and dogmas, and so, became weak and lost all their potency. So, they could be defeated. Apparently, according to some of these sources, Shankara, was an incarnation of Shiva, who then arrived on earth to clean up the job that remained to be done once the false doctrine of Buddhism had weakened the opponents of the devas (the gods). The destruction of Buddhists shrines in India, of which there is ample evidence in pre- Islamic times, needs to be seen against the context of this inventive rationalization. If you want more details of how the revival of Vedic dharma required the recasting of the Buddha as a great fraud (not something Buddhists have reason to be very comfortable with, notwishtanding the contemporary Hindu rights forced attempt at forging an artificial kinship with Buddhists) - simply read - the chapter on the Buddha as an Avatar of Vishnu in Wendy Doniger O'Flaherty's excellent study - 'The Origin of Evil in Hindu Mythology' (University of California Press, 1980). The real problem that Buddhists and Jains have, vis-a-vis Hindu Hierarchs, in this matter, is that unlike Hindutva-vadis, being the adherents of essentially agnostic or atheistic religions, they have no god, no 'virajman devta' (presiding deity) who can be used as a front and as a partner in the setting up of a convenient faith based real estate mafia through an equally convenient exercise in up- country litigation, lock-breaking, trespass and some sleight of hand (or should we say sleight of pickaxe and shovel) best Shuddha On 12-Oct-10, at 11:09 PM, Javed wrote > Dear Shashi > You say science has proved there is no god, but you are still > concerned about the Hinduness of temples and neo-Buddhists. Why? > > I did not conduct any research before posting this - I have only > forwarded a news item from the Daily Telegraph (its link is given at > the bottom). The problem is that I have a Muslim name, hence I > shouldn't be making such a comment (many people will kill me), but if > you go beyond the wikipedia knowlegde, you will come to know that > Gautam Buddha could never be the Dashavatara - he was himself agains > all sorts of avataras and deities and divinities. I don't need to read > wikipedia to know this. It would be good to ask the Dalits and > neo-Buddhists if they think they are Hindus. > > thanks > > Javed > > > On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 12:32 PM, Shashidhar > wrote: >> Javed >> >> All major hindu temples? Dalits and neo Buddhists are not hindus? >> Hindus destroyed other hindu temples from sixth century BC to 13th >> Century AD, Several Buddhist viharas were converted by placing >> hindu idols ( where when how, one of the dashavtaras is Buddha, >> Read some shankara you will know better) >> >> According to M.S. Jayaprakash, a historian, the temples at >> Tirupati, Kashi, Sabarimala, Guruvayoor and Palani were once >> Buddhist temples. >> Even Swami Vivekananda had revealed that the Puri Jagannath temple >> was originally a Buddhist temple, he said. >> >> Did you conduct any research before posting this..... >> >> Read about tirupati, Palani and guruvayoor on something as simple >> as Wikipedia and you will know a lot more. There are about 1000 >> temples in Kashi which one is Mr. JP talking about... >> >> Peace. >> >> There is no god, science has proved it, there is no god and people >> who believe in the power of prayer are at best delusional, it is >> though not correct to twist and turn history to suit our present >> delusions. >> >> Shashi >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net [mailto:reader-list- >> bounces at sarai.net] On Behalf Of Javed >> Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 12:31 PM >> To: sarai list >> Subject: [Reader-list] "Return Hindu shrines to Dalits, Buddhists" >> >> Before Hindus and Muslims can decide on this matter, the dalits or >> neo-Buddhists may like to stake their claim, since they believe >> all major Hindu temples have been built after destroying ancient >> Buddhist sites. >> >> Why didn't Mayawati think of building a memorial to Kanshi Ram on >> the disputed Ayodhya site. >> >> ---- >> >> Return Hindu shrines: Dalits >> OUR SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT >> >> New Delhi, Oct. 8: Call it the Babri verdict fallout: a group of >> Dalit rights activists has decided to approach the government >> demanding that Buddha and Jain viharas that have been converted to >> Hindu temples should be returned to the original owners. >> >> The group, made up of Ambedkar followers, academics, advocates and >> activists, has also decided to approach the Supreme Court with the >> demand. >> >> Several Buddha and Jain viharas were there in the country from >> sixth century BC to 13th century AD, which were later converted >> into Hindu temples by placing idols in them, the group said. >> >> Now that Allahabad High Court has given Hindus two-thirds of the >> land on which Babri Masjid stood on the ground that there was a >> temple at the site before the mosque was constructed, all those >> viharas should also be returned, they argued. >> >> According to M.S. Jayaprakash, a historian, the temples at >> Tirupati, Kashi, Sabarimala, Guruvayoor and Palani were once >> Buddhist temples. >> Even Swami Vivekananda had revealed that the Puri Jagannath temple >> was originally a Buddhist temple, he said. >> >> Hundreds of Buddhist statues, stupas and viharas were destroyed in >> India between AD 830 and AD 966 in the name of Hindu revivalism, >> Jayaprakash said. Literary and archaeological sources within and >> outside India speak of this, he added. >> >> Other members of the group include “Dalit Bandhu” N.K. Jose, Bhim >> Jayaraj and Vijay Shekhar. >> >> The group is planning to meet BSP chief Mayavati. “We hope that >> Mayavati, whose vote bank is largely made up of Dalits and neo- >> Buddhists, will be receptive to the idea. The issue is both >> political and religious — a deadly concoction which no politician >> can afford to neglect,” said one activist. >> >> http://www.telegraphindia.com/1101009/jsp/nation/story_13037587.jsp >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From shuddha at sarai.net Wed Oct 13 00:48:51 2010 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 00:48:51 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] "Return Hindu shrines to Dalits, Buddhists" In-Reply-To: References: <381F7CF29A004D33896DC94CE2B79AEF@butterfliesdelhi.local> <005901cb69db$63f1b3d0$2bd51b70$@butterfliesindia.org> Message-ID: <90B77D23-5103-4BA5-939C-A8C3139A016D@sarai.net> Dear Shashi, Javed and Prakash, Thanks for this interesting little exchange. One reason to demand that the ASI report on Ayodhya be made a public document, because, it actually suggests a lot going on 'below' the so-called Ram Janmabhoomi stratigraphic layer. It is one of the reasons, as any ASI old timer will tell you, why, the Ayodhya excavations were eventually abandoned and left incomplete by the ASI establishment, which was always partial to the Hindutva lobby. Hindutva advocates are actually quite uncomfortable with what is 'below' the Ram Janmabhoomi layer, because it would probably expose, as you rightly point out, the fact that the Ram Janmabhoomi layer is istelf founded on the destruction of what came previous to it - probably Buddhist or Jain remains. Now, if we take the faiths of those people who are not Hindus, but Buddhists, Jains etc, seriously, then, we have to, by the logic of the Alllahabad High Court judgement, actually prioritize those who might stake a claim to the pre-Ram Janmabhoomi layer. Shashi says - "one of the dashavtaras is Buddha, Read some shankara you will know better" - actually the story of how the Buddha became absorbed into the dashavatara of Vishnu pantheon is quite intriguing. A majority of the puranic and shastric sources that make this claim, do so, with a strangely twisted and perverted logic - and it goes somewhat like this - Vishnu was incarnated as Buddha in order to preach a false doctrine (read Buddhism) to the Asuras (demons) who had become very powerful through their diligent prayers and sacrifices. The Asuras, persuaded by what the Buddha taught, abandoned the Vedas, abandoned rituals and dogmas, and so, became weak and lost all their potency. So, they could be defeated. Apparently, according to some of these sources, Shankara, was an incarnation of Shiva, who then arrived on earth to clean up the job that remained to be done once the false doctrine of Buddhism had weakened the opponents of the devas (the gods). The destruction of Buddhists shrines in India, of which there is ample evidence in pre- Islamic times, needs to be seen against the context of this inventive rationalization. If you want more details of how the revival of Vedic dharma required the recasting of the Buddha as a great fraud (not something Buddhists have reason to be very comfortable with, notwishtanding the contemporary Hindu rights forced attempt at forging an artificial kinship with Buddhists) - simply read - the chapter on the Buddha as an Avatar of Vishnu in Wendy Doniger O'Flaherty's excellent study - 'The Origin of Evil in Hindu Mythology' (University of California Press, 1980). The real problem that Buddhists and Jains have, vis-a-vis Hindu Hierarchs, in this matter, is that unlike Hindutva-vadis, being the adherents of essentially agnostic or atheistic religions, they have no god, no 'virajman devta' (presiding deity) who can be used as a front and as a partner in the setting up of a convenient faith based real estate mafia through an equally convenient exercise in up- country litigation, lock-breaking, trespass and some sleight of hand (or should we say sleight of pickaxe and shovel) best Shuddha On 12-Oct-10, at 11:09 PM, Javed wrote > Dear Shashi > You say science has proved there is no god, but you are still > concerned about the Hinduness of temples and neo-Buddhists. Why? > > I did not conduct any research before posting this - I have only > forwarded a news item from the Daily Telegraph (its link is given at > the bottom). The problem is that I have a Muslim name, hence I > shouldn't be making such a comment (many people will kill me), but if > you go beyond the wikipedia knowlegde, you will come to know that > Gautam Buddha could never be the Dashavatara - he was himself agains > all sorts of avataras and deities and divinities. I don't need to read > wikipedia to know this. It would be good to ask the Dalits and > neo-Buddhists if they think they are Hindus. > > thanks > > Javed > > > On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 12:32 PM, Shashidhar > wrote: >> Javed >> >> All major hindu temples? Dalits and neo Buddhists are not hindus? >> Hindus destroyed other hindu temples from sixth century BC to 13th >> Century AD, Several Buddhist viharas were converted by placing >> hindu idols ( where when how, one of the dashavtaras is Buddha, >> Read some shankara you will know better) >> >> According to M.S. Jayaprakash, a historian, the temples at >> Tirupati, Kashi, Sabarimala, Guruvayoor and Palani were once >> Buddhist temples. >> Even Swami Vivekananda had revealed that the Puri Jagannath temple >> was originally a Buddhist temple, he said. >> >> Did you conduct any research before posting this..... >> >> Read about tirupati, Palani and guruvayoor on something as simple >> as Wikipedia and you will know a lot more. There are about 1000 >> temples in Kashi which one is Mr. JP talking about... >> >> Peace. >> >> There is no god, science has proved it, there is no god and people >> who believe in the power of prayer are at best delusional, it is >> though not correct to twist and turn history to suit our present >> delusions. >> >> Shashi >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net [mailto:reader-list- >> bounces at sarai.net] On Behalf Of Javed >> Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 12:31 PM >> To: sarai list >> Subject: [Reader-list] "Return Hindu shrines to Dalits, Buddhists" >> >> Before Hindus and Muslims can decide on this matter, the dalits or >> neo-Buddhists may like to stake their claim, since they believe >> all major Hindu temples have been built after destroying ancient >> Buddhist sites. >> >> Why didn't Mayawati think of building a memorial to Kanshi Ram on >> the disputed Ayodhya site. >> >> ---- >> >> Return Hindu shrines: Dalits >> OUR SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT >> >> New Delhi, Oct. 8: Call it the Babri verdict fallout: a group of >> Dalit rights activists has decided to approach the government >> demanding that Buddha and Jain viharas that have been converted to >> Hindu temples should be returned to the original owners. >> >> The group, made up of Ambedkar followers, academics, advocates and >> activists, has also decided to approach the Supreme Court with the >> demand. >> >> Several Buddha and Jain viharas were there in the country from >> sixth century BC to 13th century AD, which were later converted >> into Hindu temples by placing idols in them, the group said. >> >> Now that Allahabad High Court has given Hindus two-thirds of the >> land on which Babri Masjid stood on the ground that there was a >> temple at the site before the mosque was constructed, all those >> viharas should also be returned, they argued. >> >> According to M.S. Jayaprakash, a historian, the temples at >> Tirupati, Kashi, Sabarimala, Guruvayoor and Palani were once >> Buddhist temples. >> Even Swami Vivekananda had revealed that the Puri Jagannath temple >> was originally a Buddhist temple, he said. >> >> Hundreds of Buddhist statues, stupas and viharas were destroyed in >> India between AD 830 and AD 966 in the name of Hindu revivalism, >> Jayaprakash said. Literary and archaeological sources within and >> outside India speak of this, he added. >> >> Other members of the group include “Dalit Bandhu” N.K. Jose, Bhim >> Jayaraj and Vijay Shekhar. >> >> The group is planning to meet BSP chief Mayavati. “We hope that >> Mayavati, whose vote bank is largely made up of Dalits and neo- >> Buddhists, will be receptive to the idea. The issue is both >> political and religious — a deadly concoction which no politician >> can afford to neglect,” said one activist. >> >> http://www.telegraphindia.com/1101009/jsp/nation/story_13037587.jsp >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From shashidhar at butterfliesindia.org Wed Oct 13 09:53:41 2010 From: shashidhar at butterfliesindia.org (Shashidhar) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 09:53:41 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] "Return Hindu shrines to Dalits, Buddhists" In-Reply-To: References: <381F7CF29A004D33896DC94CE2B79AEF@butterfliesdelhi.local><005901cb69db$63f1b3d0$2bd51b70$@butterfliesindia.org> Message-ID: <000c01cb6a8e$6ab5f100$4021d300$@butterfliesindia.org> Javed, There you go again, mixing facts and theology and caste and religious identity, Fact 1 : - There is no god Fact 2: - Futile to spend time on god Fact 3: - No one knows history, it not science to be perfect and history is always written by the victors, if for centuries xyz were powerful they were right and ABC are wrong, ABC become strong they were heinously wronged in the past and they were completely mis represented. Fact 4: - Relax, you should reduce yourself to some religious identity, trust me no one none alive, dead, comatose on this planet have seen, heard or experienced god. God has and will always remain a human invention. Fact 5: - We are all happy people are not dying, getting killed over some land, ownership does not determine anything. Fact 6: - Time can be better spent in scientific endeavours rather than debating mandir masjid, this is only place where people are still talking about it, 50 years of debate over the land and ayodhya continues to languish as a 4th grade town without, schools, hospitals, parks or shopping malls, it is history.. Peace Shashi -----Original Message----- From: Javed [mailto:javedmasoo at gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 9:35 AM To: Shashidhar Cc: sarai list Subject: Re: [Reader-list] "Return Hindu shrines to Dalits, Buddhists" Dear Shashi You say science has proved there is no god, but you are still concerned about the Hinduness of temples and neo-Buddhists. Why? I did not conduct any research before posting this - I have only forwarded a news item from the Daily Telegraph (its link is given at the bottom). The problem is that I have a Muslim name, hence I shouldn't be making such a comment (many people will kill me), but if you go beyond the wikipedia knowlegde, you will come to know that Gautam Buddha could never be the Dashavatara - he was himself agains all sorts of avataras and deities and divinities. I don't need to read wikipedia to know this. It would be good to ask the Dalits and neo-Buddhists if they think they are Hindus. thanks Javed On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 12:32 PM, Shashidhar wrote: > Javed > > All major hindu temples? Dalits and neo Buddhists are not hindus? > Hindus destroyed other hindu temples from sixth century BC to 13th > Century AD, Several Buddhist viharas were converted by placing hindu > idols ( where when how, one of the dashavtaras is Buddha, Read some > shankara you will know better) > > According to M.S. Jayaprakash, a historian, the temples at Tirupati, Kashi, Sabarimala, Guruvayoor and Palani were once Buddhist temples. > Even Swami Vivekananda had revealed that the Puri Jagannath temple was originally a Buddhist temple, he said. > > Did you conduct any research before posting this..... > > Read about tirupati, Palani and guruvayoor on something as simple as Wikipedia and you will know a lot more. There are about 1000 temples in Kashi which one is Mr. JP talking about... > > Peace. > > There is no god, science has proved it, there is no god and people who believe in the power of prayer are at best delusional, it is though not correct to twist and turn history to suit our present delusions. > > Shashi > > -----Original Message----- > From: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net > [mailto:reader-list-bounces at sarai.net] On Behalf Of Javed > Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 12:31 PM > To: sarai list > Subject: [Reader-list] "Return Hindu shrines to Dalits, Buddhists" > > Before Hindus and Muslims can decide on this matter, the dalits or neo-Buddhists may like to stake their claim, since they believe all major Hindu temples have been built after destroying ancient Buddhist sites. > > Why didn't Mayawati think of building a memorial to Kanshi Ram on the disputed Ayodhya site. > > ---- > > Return Hindu shrines: Dalits > OUR SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT > > New Delhi, Oct. 8: Call it the Babri verdict fallout: a group of Dalit rights activists has decided to approach the government demanding that Buddha and Jain viharas that have been converted to Hindu temples should be returned to the original owners. > > The group, made up of Ambedkar followers, academics, advocates and activists, has also decided to approach the Supreme Court with the demand. > > Several Buddha and Jain viharas were there in the country from sixth century BC to 13th century AD, which were later converted into Hindu temples by placing idols in them, the group said. > > Now that Allahabad High Court has given Hindus two-thirds of the land on which Babri Masjid stood on the ground that there was a temple at the site before the mosque was constructed, all those viharas should also be returned, they argued. > > According to M.S. Jayaprakash, a historian, the temples at Tirupati, Kashi, Sabarimala, Guruvayoor and Palani were once Buddhist temples. > Even Swami Vivekananda had revealed that the Puri Jagannath temple was originally a Buddhist temple, he said. > > Hundreds of Buddhist statues, stupas and viharas were destroyed in India between AD 830 and AD 966 in the name of Hindu revivalism, Jayaprakash said. Literary and archaeological sources within and outside India speak of this, he added. > > Other members of the group include "Dalit Bandhu" N.K. Jose, Bhim Jayaraj and Vijay Shekhar. > > The group is planning to meet BSP chief Mayavati. "We hope that Mayavati, whose vote bank is largely made up of Dalits and neo-Buddhists, will be receptive to the idea. The issue is both political and religious - a deadly concoction which no politician can afford to neglect," said one activist. > > http://www.telegraphindia.com/1101009/jsp/nation/story_13037587.jsp > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > From shashidhar at butterfliesindia.org Wed Oct 13 10:24:58 2010 From: shashidhar at butterfliesindia.org (Shashidhar) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 10:24:58 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] "Return Hindu shrines to Dalits, Buddhists" In-Reply-To: <3A347AD6241949B0A2A872DD9BCCD53D@butterfliesdelhi.local> References: <381F7CF29A004D33896DC94CE2B79AEF@butterfliesdelhi.local> <005901cb69db$63f1b3d0$2bd51b70$@butterfliesindia.org> <3A347AD6241949B0A2A872DD9BCCD53D@butterfliesdelhi.local> Message-ID: <001301cb6a92$c98fe010$5cafa030$@butterfliesindia.org> Dear Subhardra, When you say hindu do you mean people like me and javed and everyone else in India or only those 5% or maybe even lesser population of zealots who are still concerned over this dialogue for purely political reasons, cmon they do not believe in any god.. These fellows are using us and if the argument is still above us, may all your gods help us. Born into a hindu family so I am one, it not as if all muslims and hindus have undertaken studies of the religion and chosen a particular path of spirituality over the others. We mostly do not have any choice in the god or the theology we wish to follow. It is ok for people to believe in anything but not right on technocrats to present half baked facts based some report published by some government body who they is aligned to the right-wing forces, and none including the muslims in ASI have integrity to publish the facts. Most of us do not know Sanskrit, pali, prakrit, we rely on crude translations of these texts whose genuineness is questionable. None of has gone to Ayodhya, asked the people what they want, none of us care that thre were thankfully no roits, none us are worried about judicial incompetence in the case of more than 1 Lakh under trials, but yes those acres of land interest all of us. It is all in the past, long gone forgotten, no one cares, I repeat there is no god, show me god and we can talk about gods and temple dedicated to gods. Javed mentioned in his mail, Bhagawan Buddha vetoed all form of idol worship, why pagodas and temples. Yes what Subhadra says is right on, there were periods of turbulence in Hindu history, life was getting to be too ritualistsic and people were forgetting science or community life, during such times, Gautama rose like a phoenix and set things right, so did chaitnya mahaprabhu, djaneshwar, madvacharya, shankara, bullesh shah. For me the reading from all these masters tells me of the nonexistence of any god, Surrender to self and a life of peace being more important than rubble and dust. No historian can with authority speak of the past, talking to historians sometimes is more like talking to a better palmist, who can predict the past according to your likes and dislikes. Peace and Love Shashi From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta [mailto:shuddha at sarai.net] Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 9:35 AM To: Javed Cc: Shashidhar; sarai list Subject: Re: [Reader-list] "Return Hindu shrines to Dalits, Buddhists" Dear Shashi, Javed and Prakash, Thanks for this interesting little exchange. One reason to demand that the ASI report on Ayodhya be made a public document, because, it actually suggests a lot going on 'below' the so-called Ram Janmabhoomi stratigraphic layer. It is one of the reasons, as any ASI old timer will tell you, why, the Ayodhya excavations were eventually abandoned and left incomplete by the ASI establishment, which was always partial to the Hindutva lobby. Hindutva advocates are actually quite uncomfortable with what is 'below' the Ram Janmabhoomi layer, because it would probably expose, as you rightly point out, the fact that the Ram Janmabhoomi layer is istelf founded on the destruction of what came previous to it - probably Buddhist or Jain remains. Now, if we take the faiths of those people who are not Hindus, but Buddhists, Jains etc, seriously, then, we have to, by the logic of the Alllahabad High Court judgement, actually prioritize those who might stake a claim to the pre-Ram Janmabhoomi layer. Shashi says - "one of the dashavtaras is Buddha, Read some shankara you will know better" - actually the story of how the Buddha became absorbed into the dashavatara of Vishnu pantheon is quite intriguing. A majority of the puranic and shastric sources that make this claim, do so, with a strangely twisted and perverted logic - and it goes somewhat like this - Vishnu was incarnated as Buddha in order to preach a false doctrine (read Buddhism) to the Asuras (demons) who had become very powerful through their diligent prayers and sacrifices. The Asuras, persuaded by what the Buddha taught, abandoned the Vedas, abandoned rituals and dogmas, and so, became weak and lost all their potency. So, they could be defeated. Apparently, according to some of these sources, Shankara, was an incarnation of Shiva, who then arrived on earth to clean up the job that remained to be done once the false doctrine of Buddhism had weakened the opponents of the devas (the gods). The destruction of Buddhists shrines in India, of which there is ample evidence in pre-Islamic times, needs to be seen against the context of this inventive rationalization. If you want more details of how the revival of Vedic dharma required the recasting of the Buddha as a great fraud (not something Buddhists have reason to be very comfortable with, notwishtanding the contemporary Hindu rights forced attempt at forging an artificial kinship with Buddhists) - simply read - the chapter on the Buddha as an Avatar of Vishnu in Wendy Doniger O'Flaherty's excellent study - 'The Origin of Evil in Hindu Mythology' (University of California Press, 1980). The real problem that Buddhists and Jains have, vis-a-vis Hindu Hierarchs, in this matter, is that unlike Hindutva-vadis, being the adherents of essentially agnostic or atheistic religions, they have no god, no 'virajman devta' (presiding deity) who can be used as a front and as a partner in the setting up of a convenient faith based real estate mafia through an equally convenient exercise in up-country litigation, lock-breaking, trespass and some sleight of hand (or should we say sleight of pickaxe and shovel) best Shuddha On 12-Oct-10, at 11:09 PM, Javed wrote Dear Shashi You say science has proved there is no god, but you are still concerned about the Hinduness of temples and neo-Buddhists. Why? I did not conduct any research before posting this - I have only forwarded a news item from the Daily Telegraph (its link is given at the bottom). The problem is that I have a Muslim name, hence I shouldn't be making such a comment (many people will kill me), but if you go beyond the wikipedia knowlegde, you will come to know that Gautam Buddha could never be the Dashavatara - he was himself agains all sorts of avataras and deities and divinities. I don't need to read wikipedia to know this. It would be good to ask the Dalits and neo-Buddhists if they think they are Hindus. thanks Javed On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 12:32 PM, Shashidhar wrote: Javed All major hindu temples? Dalits and neo Buddhists are not hindus? Hindus destroyed other hindu temples from sixth century BC to 13th Century AD, Several Buddhist viharas were converted by placing hindu idols ( where when how, one of the dashavtaras is Buddha, Read some shankara you will know better) According to M.S. Jayaprakash, a historian, the temples at Tirupati, Kashi, Sabarimala, Guruvayoor and Palani were once Buddhist temples. Even Swami Vivekananda had revealed that the Puri Jagannath temple was originally a Buddhist temple, he said. Did you conduct any research before posting this..... Read about tirupati, Palani and guruvayoor on something as simple as Wikipedia and you will know a lot more. There are about 1000 temples in Kashi which one is Mr. JP talking about... Peace. There is no god, science has proved it, there is no god and people who believe in the power of prayer are at best delusional, it is though not correct to twist and turn history to suit our present delusions. Shashi -----Original Message----- From: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net [mailto:reader-list-bounces at sarai.net] On Behalf Of Javed Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 12:31 PM To: sarai list Subject: [Reader-list] "Return Hindu shrines to Dalits, Buddhists" Before Hindus and Muslims can decide on this matter, the dalits or neo-Buddhists may like to stake their claim, since they believe all major Hindu temples have been built after destroying ancient Buddhist sites. Why didn't Mayawati think of building a memorial to Kanshi Ram on the disputed Ayodhya site. ---- Return Hindu shrines: Dalits OUR SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT New Delhi, Oct. 8: Call it the Babri verdict fallout: a group of Dalit rights activists has decided to approach the government demanding that Buddha and Jain viharas that have been converted to Hindu temples should be returned to the original owners. The group, made up of Ambedkar followers, academics, advocates and activists, has also decided to approach the Supreme Court with the demand. Several Buddha and Jain viharas were there in the country from sixth century BC to 13th century AD, which were later converted into Hindu temples by placing idols in them, the group said. Now that Allahabad High Court has given Hindus two-thirds of the land on which Babri Masjid stood on the ground that there was a temple at the site before the mosque was constructed, all those viharas should also be returned, they argued. According to M.S. Jayaprakash, a historian, the temples at Tirupati, Kashi, Sabarimala, Guruvayoor and Palani were once Buddhist temples. Even Swami Vivekananda had revealed that the Puri Jagannath temple was originally a Buddhist temple, he said. Hundreds of Buddhist statues, stupas and viharas were destroyed in India between AD 830 and AD 966 in the name of Hindu revivalism, Jayaprakash said. Literary and archaeological sources within and outside India speak of this, he added. Other members of the group include "Dalit Bandhu" N.K. Jose, Bhim Jayaraj and Vijay Shekhar. The group is planning to meet BSP chief Mayavati. "We hope that Mayavati, whose vote bank is largely made up of Dalits and neo-Buddhists, will be receptive to the idea. The issue is both political and religious - a deadly concoction which no politician can afford to neglect," said one activist. http://www.telegraphindia.com/1101009/jsp/nation/story_13037587.jsp _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From anivar at movingrepublic.org Wed Oct 13 10:43:09 2010 From: anivar at movingrepublic.org (Anivar Aravind) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 10:43:09 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] STOP UID CAMPAIGN - - Public Meeting in Delhi (Oct.16) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: (pl fwd to delhi contacts) *STOP UID Campaign - Public Meeting in Delhi* Date: 16 October, 2010 Venue: Indian Social Institute 10, Institutional Area, Lodhi Road, New Delhi, Tel.: 4953400 Registration and tea – 10.00 am 1030-1045 . Introduction to the meeting. Wilfred D'costa 1045-1100. *UID - claims and questions. Kalyani Menon-Sen* 1100-1115. *Legal issues and threats to rights. Usha Ramanathan* 1115-1145. Questions and interventions from the floor 1145-1200. *UID and NREGA – claims and facts. Ruchi Gupta (MKSS)* 1200-1215. *UID and PDS – claims and facts. Reetika Khera (Delhi University)* 1215-1330. Questions and interventions from the floor 1330-1430. Lunch 1430-1445. *Technological issues and implications for democracy. Ravi Shukla (JNU)* 1445-1630. Way forward – questioning and resisting UID in Delhi. Open discussion, Anil Chaudhary to lead and moderate. STOP UID Campaign A124/6 Katwaria Sarai, New Delhi 110016 Tele-fax: 011-26517814 -- "[It is not] possible to distinguish between 'numerical' and 'nonnumerical' algorithms, as if numbers were somehow different from other kinds of precise information." - Donald Knuth -- "[It is not] possible to distinguish between 'numerical' and 'nonnumerical' algorithms, as if numbers were somehow different from other kinds of precise information." - Donald Knuth From ysaeed7 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 13 14:25:53 2010 From: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com (Yousuf) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 01:55:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] mansion in the sky, hungry kids below Message-ID: <331246.21814.qm@web51405.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Before you read the news below, here are some better facts: India dropped two ranks to 67th among 84 developing countries in the International Food Policy Research Institute's annual " Global Hunger Index" for 2010. Even Sudan, North Korea and Pakistan rank higher than India. India is home to 42% of the underweight children under the age of five in the world.... in 2005...-06, about 44% of Indian children — below five years — were underweight, and nearly half — 48% — were stunted. 43.5% children below five were recorded as underweight between 2003-08. ---- Mukesh Ambani ready to move into mansion in the sky Reeba Zachariah, TNN, Oct 13, 2010, 01.23am IST MUMBAI: Antilia, the luxe 27-storey home of India's richest person Mukesh Ambani in south Mumbai, is ready for housewarming during the ongoing festive season. The building, which stands taller than most buildings in the vicinity and is visible from a distance in every direction, bears the name of a legendary island in the Atlantic Ocean. Mukesh Ambani, chairman of Reliance Industries, India's largest private sector company, whose personal wealth is estimated to be $27 billion, is set to move into his mansion by the end of the month. The palatial building, completed after seven years of labour, has three helipads on the top floor and has been billed as the most opulent home of an individual anywhere in the world. The Ambani scion has invited the who's who of the country for a sneak preview and celebrations on October 28. Ambani's multi-million-dollar customized skyscraper in Altamount Road would have Kumar Mangalam Birla, scion of the Birla family, as one of his neighbours. The glass tower that stands 570 feet tall features a swimming pool, a health club, a salon and a mini-theatre. The first six levels comprise the garage where more than 160 cars can be parked. Atop the parking lot is Antilia's lobby, which has nine elevators. The lobby leads to numerous lounges, powder rooms and a ballroom. The top floors, with a sweeping view of the city, are where the 53-year old business magnate, his wife Nita and children Akash, Anant and Isha will reside. Nita, who has been managing the affairs at Dhirubhai Ambani International School and the Mumbai Indians IPL team, has been involved in every detail and aspect of the mansion, roping in international architecture firms Hirsch Bedner Associates and Perkins Will. No two rooms in the building look the same. "I have seen several houses, including that of Lakshmi Mittal (owner of Arcelor Mittal). But Antilia is marvellous. I remember the house having a Picasso painting, it was one of its kind," said the chairman of a diversified telecom-to-retail business. The ballroom, according to him, was just stunning. He confirmed that he has an invitation to visit the new Ambani home on the 28th. For some others, it has become a talking point. Currently, the elder Ambani brother shares the address with his estranged brother Anil Ambani, who manages Reliance Anil Dhirubhai Group of companies, at Sea Wind in South Mumbai's posh Cuffe Parade. Incidentally, the elder brother bought the plot on Altamount Road soon after the spat between the brothers became public. The two have patched up recently. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/mumbai/Mukesh-ready-to-move-into-mansion-in-the-sky/articleshow/6738598.cms From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Wed Oct 13 19:56:36 2010 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 19:56:36 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] A Kafila of Brown Sahibs and Memsahibs? Message-ID: *A Kafila of Brown Sahibs and Memsahibs?* ** *By Ritwik Agrawal | October 13, 2010 6:26 pm* ** *Link - http://www.ritwikagrawal.com/2010/10/13/a-kafila-of-brown-sahibs-and-memsahibs/ * On 5 October, Kafila.org published a *post*by Nivedita Menon, guest authored by Susmita Dasgupta, which argued that Nirmohi Akhara is not a “Hindu” sect and that Ram was a fictional hero not backed by Puranic texts and therefore worshipped only by those on the margins of society. Almost every line of the original post leaves the author and her hypothesis vulnerable to being taken apart. For instance, the author contends that Krishna-worshippers traditionally believed themselves to be non-hindu. At some time, krishna-worshippers could “climb into the Hindu fold because Krishna has a Puranic backing”. It is curious why those who defined themselves as “non-Hindus” would want to climb into the “Hindu” fold. Maybe there are lots of details and resultant complex analysis involved in this picture, which the author hasn’t had the time or effort to look into, eager as she is to wade into murky waters to serve one or the other political project. If such service is to be done at the expense of the truth or academic method, then so be it! I shall not dwell any more on the factual inaccuracies and logical inconsistencies which are scattered all over Susmita’s post and her response to comments. Indeed, certain commentators, like “BC” and “suresh” have already raised some extremely probing questions to which Susmita has (wisely) chosen not to respond. Having read the post soon after it was published, and having found it legitimately funny [though such an outcome was probably not foreseen by the author or her promoters], I had submitted the following comment to Kafila: My heartfelt thanks to Susmita and Nivedita for providing some much needed comic relief in the midst of an overheated debate on Ayodhya. Susmita, in the course of your researches (?) did you bother inquiring from the Nirmohi Akhara as to their religious persuasion? Specifically about whether they consider themselves within or without the fold of hindusim. Even though it was the first serious engagement with Susmita’s post, this comment was not approved by Kafila’s extremely enlightened moderators – the flimsy reasons cited by them [only on my prompting via this blog] can be read *here* My comment was not made in jest. It’s tone was somewhat dismissive because I think indulging in long debates with people who cannot respect academic rigour or method and for whom facts are but inconvenient obstacles in the way of ideology, constitutes a waste of time. Indeed, there would be some justification in labelling the Kafala bunch, barring some honourable exceptions like Rohini Hensman and Jairus Banaji, as extremists [glib ones, though] for this very reason. The second part of my comment [about asking the Nirmohi Akhara] involves a serious question of methodology. It is alright to to go back to Rabindranath and Saratchandra and other Indian and Western scholars, however did the author bother to ask the present followers of the Nirmohi Akhara about their religious persuasion? Isn’t it extremely condescending for all of us, far way from ground realities and communicating in a foreign tongue, to be passing judgement on the religious beliefs of a set of people without even bothering to consult them about it? Forget about involving them as actual participants, in this instance English speaking “scholaraship” has failed to even use the “subject of study” as a “native informant” ! Such methodology brings to mind the following passage by the brilliant social theorist *Achille Mbembe:* On key matters, the Hegelian, post-Hegelian, and Weberian Traditions, philosophies of action and philosophies of deconstruction derived from Nietzsche or Heidegger, share the representation of the distinction between the West and other historical human forms as, largely, the way the individual in the West has gradually freed her/himself from the sway of traditions and attained an autonomous capacity to conceive, in the here and now, the definiton of norms and their free formulation by individual, rational wills. These traditions also share, to varying degrees, the assumption that, compared to the West, other societies are primitive, simple or traditional in that, in them, the weight of the past predetermines individual behaviour and limits the areas of choice – as it were, a priori. The formulation of norms in these latter societies has nothing to do with reasoned public deliberation, since the setting of norms by a process of argument is a specific invention of modern Europe. (Achille Mbembe, On the Postcolony,2001) If, in the above, we replace Western/European by English-speaking/convent-educated and take other societies to mean non-English speaking, then we see that the kind of attitude adopted by Susmita Dasgupta and other writers at Kafila is precisely the kind that Membebe bemoans and rejects in Western discourses about Africa [and by extension, other colonized societies]. Somehow, in their keen-ness to emancipate the masses by “representing” their interests, some people forget or fail to take into consideration the masses own feelings on the matter. In doing so, they end up behaving like arrogant white masters in a colony instead of equal participants in a democratic set up. In the present instance, the Nirmohi Akhara should be consulted about their own religious beliefs. The fact that they may not speak English, or refuse to participate in coffee table discussions should be immaterial. Please note that my question, was and is, one of methodology. I am not presupposing Nirmohi Akhara’s response [or lack thereof] if a query over their religious beliefs is indeed posed to them. By censoring out my comment, Kafila doesn’t muzzle me since I am still reaching a audience similar to theirs through the same medium, but by muzzling the Nirmohis on a matter inextricably linked to them, not only does Kafila show intellectual arrogance, but a rather unfortunate sense of cultural and linguistic superiority which is a relic of the colonial episteme. Kafila should know that if they open their eyes to this, they can discard what we can call, the *Educated Brown Man’s Burden*, and this will enrich both their understanding and analysis. -- Aditya Raj Kaul India Editor The Indian, Australia Web: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ From adityarajbaul at gmail.com Wed Oct 13 20:17:35 2010 From: adityarajbaul at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Baul) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 20:17:35 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Kashmiri Pandit who saved SAS Geelani's life (from Rediff.Com) In-Reply-To: <9E3B5D2B-D6D1-405C-B4A7-CC0FEFC9D9E0@sarai.net> References: <9E3B5D2B-D6D1-405C-B4A7-CC0FEFC9D9E0@sarai.net> Message-ID: The Sarai Reader-List Pandits have no comment to offer on this. Bolti band On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 1:16 AM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > An interesting perspective from an unusual quarter. > > > --------- > > The Kashmiri Pandit who saved Geelani's life > Rediff.com October 11, 2010 19:00 IST > Dr. Sameer Kaul, speaking to Krishnakumar Padmanabhan > http://news.rediff.com/special/2010/oct/11/special-kashmiri-pandit-who-saved-separatist-leader-geelanis-life.htm > > > Dr Sameer Kaul, a Kashmiri Pandit and Hurriyat leader Syed Ali Shah > Geelani's personal physician, speaks about the other side of the hardline > separatist. > > Two men at the heart of Kashmiri separatism -- hardliner Syed Ali Shah > Geelani and Yasin Malik, leader of the Jammu and Kashmir  Liberation Front > -- are alive today thanks to doctors from the Kashmiri Pandit community, > which was forced to flee the valley with the onslaught of militancy in > 1989.Some years ago, a team of three doctors performed life-saving surgery > on Geelani, now 81, in Mumbai  after he was diagnosed with cancer.Geelani > survives on three-fourth of a kidney, and one of the doctors is now his > personal physician. > > As someone who interacts with Geelani regularly, Dr Sameer Kaul is probably > better placed than anyone else to observe the real man behind the stubborn > politician we know about. > > Speaking to Rediff.com's Krishnakumar Padmanabhan, not only does Dr Kaul > give us an intimate view of Geelani, he also provides valuable insights into > the current unrest, and how Delhi can rectify mistakes of the past. I am > quite close to Geelanisaab, as a doctor should be. But my interaction with > him is mostly restricted to medical discourse.As a person, he is non-corrupt > and upright. He has conviction. > He is disciplined and is a very meagre eater. He doesn't follow the > philosophy of consumption in life. He is satisfied with the basic > things.That must have helped him in becoming incorruptible. > > I didn't know him personally before the surgery.In my childhood, I used to > ask my father who he was. My father used to say he is the man who says > 'Kashmir banega Pakistan.' Such a man is anathema for me. But when I saw > that even after 20 years he had not changed his stand and said the same > thing, I respect that. > > When we met he started by offering me my fee. I reminded him about this and > told him that I respect him for his steadfastness though I did not agree > with his philosophy. He just had a smile and kept quiet. He was called for a > interview before that for a US visa. When he was asked questions about his > political beliefs, he said he is against American policy. He was very > forthright. What does that tell you? He didn't lie for the sake of going to > the US. He is beyond that. There are very few things you can hide from your > doctor. So I can vouch that he lives a spartan life and so does his family. > > After an operation in Delhi, he was living in a cramped quarters with his > daughter in Malviya Nagar. I warned him he might get an infection. But he > told me that if he shifted, his daughter might be heartbroken that her house > was not good enough for her father and he stayed put. Such a fellow has to > be humane. > > Things like this is why I find a large part of his public image discordant. > He is always with a smile. He is not a wimpy patient. I do not concern > myself with his political affiliation and ideology, but I find him to be an > honest and sincere man to his people, which is a far cry from what we get > these days. Eighty per cent of Kashmiris will not agree with his ideology, > but they respect him for being non-corrupt.They have seen all their other > leaders get corrupted at some point or the other. In these two decades of > strife, he is the only guy whose influence and respect among the people has > only increased. > >  have seen all the chief ministers of the state in recent times and > interacted with almost every other politician.I think a major reason for > that is that he is not concerned with petty politicking and doesn't get down > to the nitty-gritty. He keeps reading and writing books, and is busy > translating Islamic texts. He lives in a spartan home. A lot of people put > up spartan exteriors, but are quite different on the inside. But in his > case, having been close to him for two decades, he is nothing like that. And > you can't hide those things forever. I think he is a man of convictions who > has been forced into a particular situation. I admire him for sticking to > it. I don't know too many politicians who stick to their convictions for > long.To top that, he is extremely humble and not greedy. He is not into > dynastics and does not seek any favours for his children or sons-in-law. > Neither is he into shady deals nor does he have any secret benami property. > > One thing I have always thought is that he was never handled well. He was > just labeled as an anti-India hawk and thus, he continues to be called so. > In reality he is quite a soft guy. I do not agree with the picture that is > being painted about him. > I think he has always been put in a reactionary situation -- you do > something and he has no way else but to react to it. He has always been > pushed to a corner, where the only thing that he can do is react in the way > he has. He has been demonised throughout. I don't think he had any option. > There is also the angle that he is the only one who did not bend and dance > to your (New Delhi's) tunes. > I have so many patients who have seen him and they can't believe he is the > same guy they see and hear about in the news. I am basically a Sufi at > heart. Which is not what he adheres to, and I don't mix two things together. > > We disagreed only once. There was a Sufi saint who died three months ago. > They used to call him the naked fakir. Hindus, Muslims, and Sikhs throng to > his place. I visited him often. Once he (Geelani) tried to tell me that it > was not right. I told him it was my philosophy and was best left alone. > After that, not once did he ever touch that topic. Among his greatest > strengths are that he is humble, sober, incorruptible, and a man of > principles, convictions and discipline. > > In the last 18 years, I have been doing a free (medical) camp in Srinagar. I > don't think even a Muslim politician can venture out today. If you go on to > the roads, you can be pulled out and skinned. For a Kashmiri Pandit to tell > you that, it has a big meaning. A part of it is that what you give is what > comes back to you. > > When I conduct my camps -- I don't take any security with me as I have never > perceived a threat -- never do I get the feeling of not being wanted. I > think it is because I do not believe Kashmiris are fundamentalists. Only 10 > to 15 per cent are. > What is actually happening on the ground is that a sustained class war is > going on there. Simultaneously, there is also the phenomenon of one kind of > Islam trying to overtake another kind of Sufi Islam. In the last 15 days I > have heard from many Kashmiri friends that their houses are being targeted. > What is happening is that a frustrated section is taking out its anger on a > well-off section. He doesn't like what he sees, and so sets out to destroy > it. What worries me is that it is now even worse than 1989. Then, a lot of > people got into it because there was a romanticism associated with it. > Today, what you see is extreme anger. The central political system was in > deep slumber. Everything was going on under the surface and nobody woke up > to it. > > Regarding Geelani's role in the current unrest, I am sure a lot of what is > happening outside is beyond his control. He wouldn't get children out (on > the streets of Kashmir), that is absolutely not on in his book. I can't > believe that. I don't think that can be true. He appealed for calm and there > was a lot of dissent against that. I can't speak about where is it coming > from and who is supporting that. > > I still maintain my home in Srinagar. I have not moved out. I am part of > that society. > As to whether he had a role in the persecution of Pandits, when there is a > mass exodus, massive things happen on a large scale, you can't single out > things. You have to rise above these things. And if he was so anti-Pandit he > wouldn't have come to me. I am a neutral Sufi. I believe he probably > participated in the movement against the Pandits because his philosophy is > fundamentalist. But there is an action-reaction situation also. The Pandits, > while they were there, did not exactly have a positive disposition towards > him ever. When you get relegated to a corner, you realise there is only one > place open. You stay alive and occupy the space. > Regarding the way he was treated he speaks about past experiences when he > says he was approached, but things never happened.Had he been approached and > accommodated, we would not be here today. All the time that the valley was > fine, the government did nothing. We are only worried when the house catches > fire. And people also realise that to get your attention, they have to burn > something. > This is the same story in the Maoist belt also if I am not mistaken. When it > comes to Kashmir, I believe in soft power, which is the non-political space. > It is non-utilised in Kashmir. We have only shown the hard face of India to > the Kashmiris. If you realise the way our government functions it is not > exactly a straightforward situation. > As a nation -- this is my personal view -- we have never had a comprehensive > and continuous policy towards Kashmir. It changes with various desks that > handle Kashmir, and has always been discontinuous. If you talk about > indoctrination, that starts at the age of 4 in rural schools. But we have > never had a comprehensive group of dedicated people whose only motive is to > keep Kashmir with the Union. > Had that happened, would we be in this situation today after 63 years? > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From prem.cnt at gmail.com Wed Oct 13 20:38:55 2010 From: prem.cnt at gmail.com (Prem Chandavarkar) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 20:38:55 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Xavier's principal takes on Sena and his own student (Rohinton Mistry's book banning row) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I was in Berlin a little over a month ago. In the square at Humboldt University in the heart of Berlin there is a monument to an event in May 1933 when Nazi students dragged hundreds of books, that they considered subversive and damaging to German culture, out of the university library and burnt them. The monument is an unobtrusive inset of a glass square in the middle of the plaza, and if you look down through the glass you see nothing but empty bookshelves. But the most powerful part (to me) was a plaque containing a statement by the German writer/journalist/poet Heinrich Heine, prophetically stated in 1820, which says "This is only a prelude; where they burn books they eventually burn people" On 12 October 2010 19:47, TaraPrakash wrote: > Well appeasement is part of Indian politics and universities are just part > of it. We have to ban the sale of books like Satanic Verses and Lajja let > alone include them in any syllabus. > > From rama.sangye at gmail.com Wed Oct 13 20:59:32 2010 From: rama.sangye at gmail.com (V Ramaswamy) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 20:59:32 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Xavier's principal takes on Sena and his own student (Rohinton Mistry's book banning row) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: here they may well celebrate that date, with a books burning pujan, and formally announce that they hope to roast humans on the same pyre very soon. seeing the popularity of their call, other political parties may also try hard to emulate that. Jai Hind! From taraprakash at gmail.com Wed Oct 13 21:50:29 2010 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 12:20:29 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Xavier's principal takes on Sena and his own student (Rohinton Mistry's book banning row) References: Message-ID: <2BFA783CA3E442AC806F58B7AA28E3BE@tara> Well, political parties are already doing it. Books cost too much to waste money on so books are hardly burnt, but political parties have indulged in burning of human beings and Shiv Sena is not the only party to do that. If you ask me which book by Mistry is the best, my answer will be "A Fine Balance." I am sure many discerning readers will agree with me. the book reminds readers of caste system in India, of harmony between believers of 2 different faiths, about the emergency days and subjugation of masses. But the best Mistry does is not to name the architect of the emergency. Once you use real names "Shiv Sena" "Congress" "Indira Gandhi" You imply that only those parties indulge in inhuman practices. I think an artist is better than a lay man like me when he/she calls spade a spade by using a different word for it. ----- Original Message ----- From: V Ramaswamy To: prem.cnt at gmail.com Cc: TaraPrakash ; reader-list at sarai.net ; Patrice Riemens Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 11:29 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Xavier's principal takes on Sena and his own student (Rohinton Mistry's book banning row) here they may well celebrate that date, with a books burning pujan, and formally announce that they hope to roast humans on the same pyre very soon. seeing the popularity of their call, other political parties may also try hard to emulate that. Jai Hind! From aliens at dataone.in Wed Oct 13 23:16:08 2010 From: aliens at dataone.in (Bipin Trivedi) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 23:16:08 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Kashmiri Pandit who saved SAS Geelani's life (from Rediff.Com) In-Reply-To: References: <9E3B5D2B-D6D1-405C-B4A7-CC0FEFC9D9E0@sarai.net> Message-ID: <000f01cb6afe$855a34b0$900e9e10$@in> Bolti Band? What a rude you are in your comment. Anyway as an Indian I am giving you reply. Dr. Sameer Kaul, as a Pandit shown his humility and perform his duty as a doctor and I fully appreciate it. Same way Geelani accepted his treatment, may be non-availability of better alternative, is equally appreciable. Geelani must have been good human, non-corrupt and committed. But, one should rectify their own thought/belief as he grown up. Dr. Kaul describes Geelani as good human beings, but note down his own statements, "I do not believe Kashmiris are fundamentalists. Only 10 to 15 per cent are.” and "Eighty per cent of Kashmiris will not agree with his ideology, but they respect him for being non-corrupt." Read these 2 sentences and that is the hard truth Dr. Kaul has revealed, 80% do not support them in their separatist’s movement! Separatist are just 20% but with created violence they seems bigger and create situation that they have full support. Geelani at the age of about 90 could not able to understand all these years of his life about limited supports to his thoughts and not willing to re-assess himself and stick to his rigid nature is enough to describe him as foolish/crook. Thanks Bipin Trivedi -----Original Message----- From: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net [mailto:reader-list-bounces at sarai.net] On Behalf Of Aditya Raj Baul Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 8:18 PM Cc: reader-list List Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Kashmiri Pandit who saved SAS Geelani's life (from Rediff.Com) The Sarai Reader-List Pandits have no comment to offer on this. Bolti band On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 1:16 AM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > An interesting perspective from an unusual quarter. > > > --------- > > The Kashmiri Pandit who saved Geelani's life > Rediff.com October 11, 2010 19:00 IST > Dr. Sameer Kaul, speaking to Krishnakumar Padmanabhan > http://news.rediff.com/special/2010/oct/11/special-kashmiri-pandit-who-saved-separatist-leader-geelanis-life.htm > > > Dr Sameer Kaul, a Kashmiri Pandit and Hurriyat leader Syed Ali Shah > Geelani's personal physician, speaks about the other side of the hardline > separatist. > > Two men at the heart of Kashmiri separatism -- hardliner Syed Ali Shah > Geelani and Yasin Malik, leader of the Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front > -- are alive today thanks to doctors from the Kashmiri Pandit community, > which was forced to flee the valley with the onslaught of militancy in > 1989.Some years ago, a team of three doctors performed life-saving surgery > on Geelani, now 81, in Mumbai after he was diagnosed with cancer.Geelani > survives on three-fourth of a kidney, and one of the doctors is now his > personal physician. > > As someone who interacts with Geelani regularly, Dr Sameer Kaul is probably > better placed than anyone else to observe the real man behind the stubborn > politician we know about. > > Speaking to Rediff.com's Krishnakumar Padmanabhan, not only does Dr Kaul > give us an intimate view of Geelani, he also provides valuable insights into > the current unrest, and how Delhi can rectify mistakes of the past. I am > quite close to Geelanisaab, as a doctor should be. But my interaction with > him is mostly restricted to medical discourse.As a person, he is non-corrupt > and upright. He has conviction. > He is disciplined and is a very meagre eater. He doesn't follow the > philosophy of consumption in life. He is satisfied with the basic > things.That must have helped him in becoming incorruptible. > > I didn't know him personally before the surgery.In my childhood, I used to > ask my father who he was. My father used to say he is the man who says > 'Kashmir banega Pakistan.' Such a man is anathema for me. But when I saw > that even after 20 years he had not changed his stand and said the same > thing, I respect that. > > When we met he started by offering me my fee. I reminded him about this and > told him that I respect him for his steadfastness though I did not agree > with his philosophy. He just had a smile and kept quiet. He was called for a > interview before that for a US visa. When he was asked questions about his > political beliefs, he said he is against American policy. He was very > forthright. What does that tell you? He didn't lie for the sake of going to > the US. He is beyond that. There are very few things you can hide from your > doctor. So I can vouch that he lives a spartan life and so does his family. > > After an operation in Delhi, he was living in a cramped quarters with his > daughter in Malviya Nagar. I warned him he might get an infection. But he > told me that if he shifted, his daughter might be heartbroken that her house > was not good enough for her father and he stayed put. Such a fellow has to > be humane. > > Things like this is why I find a large part of his public image discordant. > He is always with a smile. He is not a wimpy patient. I do not concern > myself with his political affiliation and ideology, but I find him to be an > honest and sincere man to his people, which is a far cry from what we get > these days. Eighty per cent of Kashmiris will not agree with his ideology, > but they respect him for being non-corrupt.They have seen all their other > leaders get corrupted at some point or the other. In these two decades of > strife, he is the only guy whose influence and respect among the people has > only increased. > > have seen all the chief ministers of the state in recent times and > interacted with almost every other politician.I think a major reason for > that is that he is not concerned with petty politicking and doesn't get down > to the nitty-gritty. He keeps reading and writing books, and is busy > translating Islamic texts. He lives in a spartan home. A lot of people put > up spartan exteriors, but are quite different on the inside. But in his > case, having been close to him for two decades, he is nothing like that. And > you can't hide those things forever. I think he is a man of convictions who > has been forced into a particular situation. I admire him for sticking to > it. I don't know too many politicians who stick to their convictions for > long.To top that, he is extremely humble and not greedy. He is not into > dynastics and does not seek any favours for his children or sons-in-law. > Neither is he into shady deals nor does he have any secret benami property. > > One thing I have always thought is that he was never handled well. He was > just labeled as an anti-India hawk and thus, he continues to be called so. > In reality he is quite a soft guy. I do not agree with the picture that is > being painted about him. > I think he has always been put in a reactionary situation -- you do > something and he has no way else but to react to it. He has always been > pushed to a corner, where the only thing that he can do is react in the way > he has. He has been demonised throughout. I don't think he had any option. > There is also the angle that he is the only one who did not bend and dance > to your (New Delhi's) tunes. > I have so many patients who have seen him and they can't believe he is the > same guy they see and hear about in the news. I am basically a Sufi at > heart. Which is not what he adheres to, and I don't mix two things together. > > We disagreed only once. There was a Sufi saint who died three months ago. > They used to call him the naked fakir. Hindus, Muslims, and Sikhs throng to > his place. I visited him often. Once he (Geelani) tried to tell me that it > was not right. I told him it was my philosophy and was best left alone. > After that, not once did he ever touch that topic. Among his greatest > strengths are that he is humble, sober, incorruptible, and a man of > principles, convictions and discipline. > > In the last 18 years, I have been doing a free (medical) camp in Srinagar. I > don't think even a Muslim politician can venture out today. If you go on to > the roads, you can be pulled out and skinned. For a Kashmiri Pandit to tell > you that, it has a big meaning. A part of it is that what you give is what > comes back to you. > > When I conduct my camps -- I don't take any security with me as I have never > perceived a threat -- never do I get the feeling of not being wanted. I > think it is because I do not believe Kashmiris are fundamentalists. Only 10 > to 15 per cent are. > What is actually happening on the ground is that a sustained class war is > going on there. Simultaneously, there is also the phenomenon of one kind of > Islam trying to overtake another kind of Sufi Islam. In the last 15 days I > have heard from many Kashmiri friends that their houses are being targeted. > What is happening is that a frustrated section is taking out its anger on a > well-off section. He doesn't like what he sees, and so sets out to destroy > it. What worries me is that it is now even worse than 1989. Then, a lot of > people got into it because there was a romanticism associated with it. > Today, what you see is extreme anger. The central political system was in > deep slumber. Everything was going on under the surface and nobody woke up > to it. > > Regarding Geelani's role in the current unrest, I am sure a lot of what is > happening outside is beyond his control. He wouldn't get children out (on > the streets of Kashmir), that is absolutely not on in his book. I can't > believe that. I don't think that can be true. He appealed for calm and there > was a lot of dissent against that. I can't speak about where is it coming > from and who is supporting that. > > I still maintain my home in Srinagar. I have not moved out. I am part of > that society. > As to whether he had a role in the persecution of Pandits, when there is a > mass exodus, massive things happen on a large scale, you can't single out > things. You have to rise above these things. And if he was so anti-Pandit he > wouldn't have come to me. I am a neutral Sufi. I believe he probably > participated in the movement against the Pandits because his philosophy is > fundamentalist. But there is an action-reaction situation also. The Pandits, > while they were there, did not exactly have a positive disposition towards > him ever. When you get relegated to a corner, you realise there is only one > place open. You stay alive and occupy the space. > Regarding the way he was treated he speaks about past experiences when he > says he was approached, but things never happened.Had he been approached and > accommodated, we would not be here today. All the time that the valley was > fine, the government did nothing. We are only worried when the house catches > fire. And people also realise that to get your attention, they have to burn > something. > This is the same story in the Maoist belt also if I am not mistaken. When it > comes to Kashmir, I believe in soft power, which is the non-political space. > It is non-utilised in Kashmir. We have only shown the hard face of India to > the Kashmiris. If you realise the way our government functions it is not > exactly a straightforward situation. > As a nation -- this is my personal view -- we have never had a comprehensive > and continuous policy towards Kashmir. It changes with various desks that > handle Kashmir, and has always been discontinuous. If you talk about > indoctrination, that starts at the age of 4 in rural schools. But we have > never had a comprehensive group of dedicated people whose only motive is to > keep Kashmir with the Union. > Had that happened, would we be in this situation today after 63 years? > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From shuddha at sarai.net Thu Oct 14 07:59:37 2010 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 07:59:37 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] CALL FOR PROPOSALS: MONITOR 7: New South Asian Film and Video References: <6FEE52A2-F1BB-42CB-A99C-6FA130008CF3@kein.org> Message-ID: <8A542C0E-8990-483E-8CB3-5DD1DDD7B56F@sarai.net> Begin forwarded message: > From: Ayesha Hameed > Date: 14 October 2010 1:12:36 AM GMT+05:30 > To: MFA , Visual Cultures Department > , spectre at mikrolisten.de, > CACS at lists.mcgill.ca > Subject: [spectre] CALL FOR PROPOSALS: MONITOR 7: New South Asian > Film and Video > > Please forward widely, apologies for crossposting. > -- > > MONITOR 7: New South Asian Film and Video > DEADLINE: November 10, 2010 > > SAVAC (South Asian Visual Arts Centre) invites submissions for its > seventh annual experimental short film and video screening program, > Monitor 7. > Monitor 7 is dedicated to the presentation of experimental short > films and videos by/and/or about South Asians from Canada and > around the world. We invite independent and innovative short films > and videos that explore the aesthetic and form of the moving image > and its relation to narrative. Monitor 7 encourages new, > experimental and risk-taking work that challenges the viewer’s > active engagement. > > Selected works will be screened at the sixth annual short film and > video program, Monitor 7 in March 2011 in Toronto, Canada. > Monitor 7 will be curated by Ayesha Hameed (video artist, writer > and currently Postdoctoral Fellow at the Centre for Research > Architecture, Goldsmiths) in collaboration with a MONITOR Jury (TBC). > > Works must be under 20 minutes and produced after 2008. > Submissions from first time directors are welcome. Artists’ fees > will be paid. > Submissions should be sent on DVD (PAL, NTSC) enclosed with the > following: > - Name artist or director > - Full contact information (address, phone, fax, email) > - Title of work > - Date of production > - Brief synopsis of the work > - Brief biography of the artist > - High-resolution production stills > > > Send all materials to: > SAVAC – MONITOR 7 > 401 Richmond Street West, Suite 450 > Toronto, ON Canada M5V 3A8 > Inquiries can be sent to info at savac.net > > All deliveries from international participants must be marked: > "NO COMMERCIAL VALUE" Please do not claim any monetary value over $50 > on your package for insurance or otherwise or you will be charged > customs, > duties and taxes. > > > > > > > > All submissions must be sent prepaid. SAVAC will not accept collect > or C.O.D. > shipments and will not accept shipments incurring expenses for > duties, taxes or customs brokerage. > > Please note that only selected artists will be contacted. > Submissions will only be returned if the package includes a self- > addressed stamped envelope (in Canadian postage) or send a cheque > payable to SAVAC for the return postage amount. > > For more information, please contact: > Srimoyee Mitra > Programming Co-ordinator > SAVAC [South Asian Visual Arts Centre] > Telephone: 416.542.1661 > Email: info at savac.net > Website: www.savac.net > > ______________________________________________ > SPECTRE list for media culture in Deep Europe > Info, archive and help: > http://post.in-mind.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/spectre Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From swadhin_sen at yahoo.com Thu Oct 14 22:40:03 2010 From: swadhin_sen at yahoo.com (Swadhin Sen) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 10:10:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] "Return Hindu shrines to Dalits, Buddhists" Message-ID: <914499.36401.qm@web52206.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear Shuddha and Javed I would like to refer to another book: 'The Rise and Fall of Buddhism in South Asia: a study in History, M. Abdul Mumin Chowdhury (London Institute of South Asia, 2008)' to have an alternative view on the decline and fall of Buddhism and their relation to Brahmanical revival and violence. Though the method of argument in the book may seem very reductionist and simplifying, often, there are innumerable data on this particular issue. At the same time, as I teach a course in Masters in Jahangirnagar University entitling 'Socio-politics of the Past'. In our syllebus, Babri Masjid Archaeology has a very central place. Our classroom interaction and polemics, and affects and consequence of the Babri Masjid demolition in Bangladesh have made us take to trouble of (re)thinking from outside the boundary of the modern and secular nation-state of India. In one of my book in Bangla, and in a few of my research papers I have asked for going beyond the dominating narratives and discourses, which are seemingly conflicting and opposite to each other. I am also preparing to write a short note addressing the aftermath of Ayodhya Verdict. We have already started classroom discussions on this issue.   The trouble of (re)thinking in a predominantly 'secular' and 'progressive' public sphere is that any questions about categories and notions of 'the religious' and 'the secular' are termed as reactionary. Taking the task of problematizing 'the secular' and secularism in a modern nation-state, specially after the 9/11 event, could be very dangerous. Like the utterance of George Bush, we, the thinking-minority, are often categorized and labeled as the propagator and promoter of 'the fundamentalists'.   The centrality of archaeology and history in the historicity of Babri Masjid debate cannot be ignored. The problem is: how we are going to address the questions and themes of history and archaeology, dominant in the debates between the secularists and the Hindu Nationalists.   I would refer to the works of Talal Asad, very much ignored in the critical examination of secularism in India, considering the works of the prolific figures like Asish Nandy, Lata Mani, to some extent Partha Chatterjee, and many others. His works must be seriously considered in Indian context, if we want to engage ourselves with the entire issue critically.   When SSRC blog, like Immanent Frame: secularism, religion and public sphere (  http://blogs.ssrc.org/tif/), engage with and dig deep into various intricate, detail and popular questions and themes, there is negligible participation from Indian Intellectuals (even those vast majority of whom have respectable position in western academia). This absence is quite interesting and matter to be addressed also. At the same time, the discussions and debates in Indian blogs are largely devoid of any serious attention to the problematic of secular, secularism and secularization in the context of Indian nation-state.     There have been serious debates on the nature of archaeological evidence since last three decades: which have been categorized as Processual, Post-processual/Interpretive/contextual, phenomenological and Symmetrical. As an archaeologist, I am simply depressed by the unwillingness of majority of the Indian Archaeologists in engaging with these debates. Engagement doesn't necessarily entail  appropriation (or rejection). My colleagues and friends in India, except a few, are not really interested in participating in the arguments on the nature and interpretation (epistemology and ontology) of archaeological evidence, the relation of archaeological evidence to present discursive and non-discursive formations, the intermingling of past(s) with present(s). As I have already stated, any attempt of serious engagement, if it does not fit into the accepted norms and practice of archaeological tradition is identified and refuted as jargon without any critical conviction. Besides, these narratives and the narrators are stereotyped as reactionary, they are marginalized and excluded. It is important to point, as Asad has shown, the exclusion, pain & suffering and torture in the dominantly secular public and academic space is not less tolerable than what we are always fear as 'religious'.   To conclude, I must say that we need to clinically tease out the intermingling of the nation-state and its perceived secular juridical apparatus and legal system, the secular, secularism, and the notion of objectivity of archaeological and historical evidence and its retrieval and interpretive methodology in the context of India and South Asia.   The Ayodhya Verdict and its extremely dangerous consequences could only be negotiated, at least intellectually, if certain themes and issues, certain methods and concepts, and certain form of Indocentrism are rethought systematically and programmatically.   Hope, this time I wont be labeled as a post-modern begot or I wont be slapped with derogatory remarks as I was when I posted some interesting comments to reader-list last time. Down with intellectual fascism, in any form and content. At this very moment, I can only pray for that.     Best,   Swadhin    Swadhin Sen Archaeologist - Assistant Professor   Dept.of Archaeology            Tel:       +88 02 779 10 45-51 Ext. 1326 Jahangirnagar University      Mobile:  +88 0172 019 61 76   Savar,Dhaka. Bangladesh    Fax:      +88 02 779 10 52   swadhin_sen at yahoo.com; swadhinsen at hotmail.com www.juniv.edu From aliens at dataone.in Fri Oct 15 10:19:41 2010 From: aliens at dataone.in (Bipin Trivedi) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 10:19:41 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] WHY WE SHOULD RESPECT GUJARAT'S GOVERNANCE AND ECONOMIC ACHIEVEMENTS Message-ID: <002801cb6c24$61617330$24245990$@in> http://www.dnaindia.com/money/column_why-we-should-respect-gujarat-s-governa nce-and-economic-achievements_1451797 As the state of Gujarat nears completion of the first decade of the 21st Century, its achievements in economic management and in governance merit respect and closer study. Between, 1999-2000 and 2007-2008, Gujarat's gross state domestic product (GSDP) in nominal terms grew at a compound annual rate of 15.8% (13.8% in per person terms). By 2010, its GSDP is approaching $100 billion, and its per capita income around $1,600, over a fifth higher than the national average. Gujarat's economy is well-balanced, with primary, secondary, and tertiary sectors contributing 21%, 33%, and 46%, respectively of GSDP in 2007-08. The manufacturing sector, key to India's future, accounted for 41% of employment, the largest share. Gujarat, a mid-sized state, accounts for 5% of India's population but contributes 21% to India's exports and 13% to the industrial production. Its literacy rate is higher than the national average. While the sex ratio needs to improve (there were only 920 females per 1,000 men in 2001), consistent with international norms, females in Gujarat live nearly four years longer than men. Gujarat's achievements have been a result of combining the following set of characteristics consistently and skilfully, with the particular mix and sequencing to suit particular context and conditions. Article continues below the advertisement... Outcome or result orientation: Such an orientation has helped minimise political or outmoded ideological considerations (such as the public sector being better than the private sector) in economic decision making and in project management. This has been the case in social sectors such as health and education, infrastructure provision, or in actively seeking new growth opportunities to help diversify sources of competitiveness and livelihoods for a growing number of workers. It has facilitated combining knowledge, resources, energies and management skills of public, private and not-for-profit sectors for addressing specific public policy challenges. It is only in the last decade that plans to use the state's 1,600 km long coastline to generate broader regional growth have made progress. Gujarat's private and joint sector ports will positively contribute to India's rapidly growing international trade; to industrialisation; and to support future development of inland transport to reduce congestion and reduce transport and logistics costs. Willingness to explicitly address business environment: The mix of factors which impact business environment include supply of resources and inputs; progressiveproductivity oriented industrial relations environment, regulatory framework; physical and social infrastructure; and where appropriate, fiscal incentives involving taxes, subsidies and budgetary expenditure. The emphasis on addressing supply side constraints in infrastructure; in real estate amenities, matching human resources and skills with projected demands; and improving urban amenities, including innovations in public transport (such as Ahmedabad's Bus Rapid Transit System (BRTS)), sets Gujarat apart from most other states in the country. India is rapidly urbanising, and Gujarat is expected to experience majority urban population in the not-too-distant future. Its urban management experiments should therefore be of relevance elsewhere in the country. BRTS in Ahmedabad, for example, is raising resources from the market for expanding its reach. With tight fiscal constraints in urban areas, such a capability will be increasingly needed to provide urban amenities, and sustain competitiveness, while improving the quality of everyday life of the people. Gujarat is among the handful of states where the state government has framed clear policies in vital areas such as agriculture, ports, power, roads and education. This has helped create greater certainty and consistency, two important aspects of business environment. Gujarat's share in the Delhi-Mumbai Industrial Corridor (DMIC) is 62% of the total area and 74% of the population. Its share in the 1,500 km-long Delhi-Mumbai dedicated freight corridor (DFC) is 38%. Its readiness to leverage these to enhance its competitiveness in attracting new economic activities is illustrated by the speedy and smooth allocation of Tata's Nano car project and the rapid industrial development of the town of Sanand, near which the Nano plant is located. Its ability to address issues surrounding land acquisition and development fairly effectively is a particularly strong advantage as compared to other states. To give another illustration, the Kutch region, traditionally arid, is being transformed through what a magazine has recently termed as 'Green Revolution Lite'. This is an improved, compacted, and eco-friendly version of the earlier Green Revolution in Punjab and elsewhere. It is led by ordinary farmers, but under state policies to address their business environment. The two characteristics noted above have contributed to improving Gujarat's power supply capabilities in an environmentally sustainable manner while contributing to India's energy security. Thus, Gujarat Urja Vikas Nigam Ltd, its state electricity utility, has signed power purchase agreements with 26 solar power project developers for 365 mw of electricity. Its electricity regulator has fixed tariff for solar power. The state has formulated a solar park scheme, which is expected to contribute to increasing the share of renewable energy in India's energy consumption. Governance philosophy and vision: The third key characteristic has been the governance philosophy, which has emphasised the vision of India emerging as a major power by transformation into a knowledge-based economy and society, while approaching the country's history from a more balanced and empirical-based perspective. A good illustration is the Statue of Unity Project after Sardar Patel, who politically unified India after Independence. Characteristically, the project also includes a research and academic centre for preserving the unity and integrity of India, on agriculture to improve land productivity and yields, and on tribal life to empower them to earn livelihoods from a wide variety of activities over large geographical areas, rather than continuously depending on government initiated and funded programmes. The Unity project aims to balance national, academic, historical and spiritual values. Gujarat has also demonstrated strong skills in social entrepreneurship, defined in simple terms as meeting everyday needs of ordinary people in an affordable manner by capitalist means. This philosophy, sometimes pursued in partnership with the government organisations, is much more sustainable and useful than large centrally planned ill-designed schemes, which make reversibility difficult even when they are demonstrated to be ineffective. Gujarat's people, its political leadership, particularly chief minister Narendra Modi, its business sector, labour leaders and social-entrepreneurship oriented not-for-profit sector all have contributed to Gujarat's achievements and to laying a solid foundation for its future, though it should not become complacent and regard future progress as automatic. India would clearly be in a better position to emerge as a major power if more states and the Central government learnt and adapted the state's approach to economic management and governance. The writer is a professor of public policy at the National University of Singapore and can be reached at: sppasher at nus.edu.sg From nc-agricowi at netcologne.de Fri Oct 15 14:02:16 2010 From: nc-agricowi at netcologne.de (JavaMuseum) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 10:32:16 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] =?iso-8859-1?q?Call_for_netart=3A_10_Years_JavaMuse?= =?iso-8859-1?q?um?= Message-ID: <20101015103216.56D2B4C7.3D94A7E8@192.168.0.3> Call for proposals ----------------------------------- final deadline 31 October 2010 ----------------------------------- Celebrate! 2010 - 10 Years JavaMuseum - JavaMuseum - Forum for Internet Technology in Contemporary Art is celebrating its 10th anniversary in 2010, but that's not all --> in addition [NewMediaArtProjectNetwork]:||cologne is celebrating its 10th anniversary in 2010, as well. On this occasion, JavaMuseum is realising a big show online, entitled: "CELEBRATE!" which started on 1 January 2010 already - http://2010.javamuseum.org Founded in 2000 and active since 2001 as a corporate part of [NewMediaArtProjectNetwork:||cologne, JavaMuseum is one of the relevant platforms for Internet based art on the net. Under the direction of Wilfried Agricola de Cologne, JavaMuseum realised more than 20 showcases and competitions of netart in a global context between 2001 and 2009 and is hosting a comprehensive collection of netart since 2000 including more than 400 artists and 1000 art works. In 2006, JavaMuseum launched - JIP - JavaMuseum Interview Project containing meanwhile more than 80 interviews with expersts and artists in the fields of digital and electronic art. On occasion of its 10th anniversary, JavaMuseum is planning to complete until the end of 2010, the netart show, entitled: "Celebrate!" in order to celebrate netart as an exciting, but anyway widely underestimated art genre, yet. This represents the best reason for inviting artists active on the fields of new, digital and electronic media to submit their latest or their older netart art projects which may originate from the years 2000-2010. Please find the details, regulations and entry form on http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=1428 -------------------------------------------------------- JavaMuseum - Forum for Internet Technology in Contemporary Art http://www.javamuseum.org and JIP - JavaMuseum Interview Project http://jip.javamuseum.org are corporate parts of [NewMediaArtProjectNetwork]:||cologne the experimental platform for art and new media from Cologne/Germany info[at]nmartproject.net From nc-agricowi at netcologne.de Fri Oct 15 14:38:01 2010 From: nc-agricowi at netcologne.de (VideoChannel) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 11:08:01 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] =?iso-8859-1?q?VideoChannel=3A_Videoart_from_Croati?= =?iso-8859-1?q?a?= Message-ID: <20101015110801.FE5C9A7.58B79048@192.168.0.3> VideoChannel - the international platform for videoart is happy to feature in October 2010 online - Videoart from Croatia - curated by Wilfried Agricola de Cologne http://videochannel.newmediafest.org/blog/?page_id=1122 including following videos and artists Dario Bardic - Etude, 2007, 3:20 Ana Bilankov - A STORY, 2008, 8´25" Adam Dragojevic - sweet memory, 2010. 1:00 Silvana Dunat - Silent, 2007, 1min 16sec Darko Fritz - Migrant Navigator Tools, 2004, 6 min 34 sec Zeljka Fuderer Levak - PLANET SPA, 2008., 5min 09 sec Miranda Herceg - DOG HOTEL, 2007., 7 min Toni Mestrovic - Continuum Continuus (Trailer), 2007, 1:00 Ana Opalic - Ein Brief , 2008., 7'22 min Filip Peruzovic - Background, 2008, 4' 56'' Davor Sanvincenti - Ana is gone, 2009, 2'50" Martina Skender - "Redefinition", 2008, 5:20 Bruna Tomsic - Selfportrait (The things I keep, 2010., 3min23sec Sonja VUK - «MY WAY», 2006, 1:00 Andrea Zrno - Me vs Myself, 2009, 3:20 This selection is also feature of the Month October on NewMediaFest'2010 10 Years [NewMediaArtProjectNetwork]:||cologne global heritage of digital culture 1 January - 31 December 2010 http://2010.newmediafest.org ---------------------------------------------- VideoChannel - the international videoart platform http://videochannel.newmediafest.org videochannel(at)newmediafest.org ---------------------------------------------- From Image.Science at donau-uni.ac.at Fri Oct 15 18:04:46 2010 From: Image.Science at donau-uni.ac.at (Image Science) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 14:34:46 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] MediaArtHistories out as educational edition (paperback) Message-ID: <4CB866860200007D0000BA95@gwgwia.donau-uni.ac.at> MediaArtHistories edited by Oliver GRAU now out as educational edition (paperback) With contributions by: Rudolf ARNHEIM, Andreas BROECKMANN, Ron BURNETT, Edmond COUCHOT, Sean CUBITT, Dieter DANIELS, Felice FRANKEL, Oliver GRAU, Erkki HUHTAMO, Douglas KAHN, Ryszard W. KLUSZCYNSKI, Machiko KUSAHARA, Timothy LENOIR, Lev MANOVICH, W.J.T. MITCHELL, Gunalan NADARAJAN, Christiane PAUL, Louise POISSANT, Edward A. SHANKEN, Barbara Maria STAFFORD and Peter WEIBEL "A rich selection of important texts by some of the most noteworthy figures in media art history, and together they will do much to shape the content of this new discipline." -- Charlie GERE - Art Book "Hmmm. That looks pretty handy." -- Bruce STERLING "With the growth of media art (and media art programs), MediaArtHistories is an important--and timely--book. Scholars, teachers, and artists all have much to gain from reading it." -- Dene GRIGAR "The essays presented in MediaArtHistories comprise a compelling addition to the bookshelf of any academic interested in art history." -- Paul THOMAS, realtime +onscreen "MediaArtHistories provides a wide view on the complex, in-progress field of media art, in which this volume intends to stand as one of the main bibliographical reference points." -- Horea AVRAM, Rhizome.org CONTENTS: Digital art has become a major contemporary art form, but it has yet to achieve acceptance from mainstream cultural institutions; it is rarely collected, and seldom included in the study of art history or other academic disciplines. In MediaArtHistories, leading scholars seek to change this. They take a wider view of media art, placing it against the backdrop of art history. Their essays demonstrate that today's media art cannot be understood by technological details alone; it cannot be understood without its history, and it must be understood in proximity to other disciplines--film, cultural and media studies, computer science, philosophy, and sciences dealing with images. Contributors trace the evolution of digital art, from thirteenth-century Islamic mechanical devices and eighteenth-century phantasmagoria, magic lanterns, and other multimedia illusions, to Marcel Duchamp's inventions and 1960s kinetic and op art. They reexamine and redefine key media art theory terms--machine, media, exhibition--and consider the blurred dividing lines between art products and consumer products and between art images and science images. Finally, MediaArtHistories offers an approach for an interdisciplinary, expanded image science, which needs the "trained eye" of art history. WEBSITES: BOOK http://www.mediaarthistory.org/pub/mediaarthistories.html MAH Conference Series & Archive www.mediaarthistories.org FACEBOOK MAH Platform www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=36056054067&v=wall www.amazon.com (->MediaArtHistories) From a.mani.cms at gmail.com Sat Oct 16 05:18:28 2010 From: a.mani.cms at gmail.com (A. Mani) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 05:18:28 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Interview of Prof. Utsa Patnaik Message-ID: Prof. Utsa Patnaik, eminent Marxist economist, retired from CESP/JNU recently. She has inspired generations of students and researchers through her teaching and research spanning four decades. On the occasion of her farewell, students of CESP published an interview of Prof. Patnaik, which is reproduced here. http://www.pragoti.org/node/4181 Best A. Mani -- A. Mani ASL, CLC,  AMS, CMS http://www.logicamani.co.cc From a.mani.cms at gmail.com Sat Oct 16 05:29:41 2010 From: a.mani.cms at gmail.com (A. Mani) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 05:29:41 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Miners in Chile Message-ID: http://www.truth-out.org/chiles-ghosts-are-not-being-rescued64160 Best A. Mani -- A. Mani ASL, CLC,  AMS, CMS http://www.logicamani.co.cc From a.mani.cms at gmail.com Sat Oct 16 05:32:36 2010 From: a.mani.cms at gmail.com (A. Mani) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 05:32:36 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Murder of Peasant Leaders in Punjab Message-ID: http://www.countercurrents.org/jeet141010.htm Best A. Mani -- A. Mani ASL, CLC,  AMS, CMS http://www.logicamani.co.cc From cubbykabi at yahoo.com Sat Oct 16 16:17:57 2010 From: cubbykabi at yahoo.com (kabi cubby sherman) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 16:17:57 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: [Citizen-Mumbai] Reading of excerpts from Rohinton Mistry's book on Monday Message-ID: <318074.32008.qm@web94709.mail.in2.yahoo.com> apologies for cross-posting. kabi ----- Forwarded Message ---- From: Jatin Desai To: citizen-mumbai Sent: Sat, 16 October, 2010 12:45:32 PM Subject: [Citizen-Mumbai] Reading of excerpts from Rohinton Mistry's book on Monday Dear Friends You are invited to a reading of excerpts from Rohinton Mistry's Such A Long Journey on Monday, October 18, 4 pm, at Press CLub, Mumbai Mumbai-born Rohinton Mistry's multi-award winning novel `Such a Long Journey', set in Mumbai of the early 70s, which was being taught as a text to SYBA Eng Lit Students was overnight withdrawn on a demand made by the youngest Thackeray to emerge in the Shiv Sena. Aditya Thackeray, grandson of Bal and son of Uddhav Thackeray, and a student of St Xavier's College, gave an ultimatum to the VC to withdraw the book because it contained references against the Sena. The VC immediately complied. For too long have parties like the Shiv Sena decided what we should read. Normally, politicians give in. This time, the man occupying the highest academic post in the University, the VC himself, went out of his way to oblige this particular student. To protest against such arbitrary and undemocratic infringement of academic independence, three Mumbai groups are organising a reading of Mistry's book. Theatre personality Dolly Thakore & novelist Meher Pestonji will read from the book. This will be followed by a discussion on `Censorship, Art & Politics'' , led by Well-known academician Prof Pushpa Bhave, Usha Subramaniam, Prof of English, who has taught the book, Kumar Prashant, writer and editor of Sarvodaya Jagat Anand Teltumbde, writer & columnist, EPW The discussion will be chaired by Rohini Hensman, researcher & human rights activist Pl join us to raise your voice against such fascist moves. Citizen initiative for Peace, Committee for Release of Dr Binayak Sen and Mumbai Initiative of Human Rights Education. Citizen Initiative for peace- A group of over 80 activists, NGOs and other groups and individuals who have come together to initiate programmes, discussions and otherwise work towards maintaining peace in Mumbai city. Email- info at mumbaicitizens.com Committee for Release of Dr Binayak Sen, Mumbai CRBS came together to campaign for the release of Dr Binayak Sen, vice-president PUCL, and a paediatrician who was arrested in 2006 under the draconian Chhattisgarh Public Security Act for standing up for tribal rights. After a two-year stint in prison, he is on bail now, while his trial continues. We as a group continue to fight for democratic rights and raise our voices against human rights violations. Email- icareforjustice at gmail.com Mumbai Initiative for Human Rights Education The seeds of Mumbai Initiative for Human Rights Education (MIHRE) were sown at a National Human Rights Education Workshop organised by IHREC in Mumbai in October 2003.The mission of MIHRE is to promote human rights culture in the Mumbai metropolitan region through education in schools as well as colleges, universities and other higher educational institutions. Email- drtc at vsnl.com -- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Citizen-Mumbai" group. To post to this group, send email to citizen-mumbai at googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to citizen-mumbai+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/citizen-mumbai?hl=en. From aliens at dataone.in Sun Oct 17 10:38:13 2010 From: aliens at dataone.in (Bipin Trivedi) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 10:38:13 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] GUJARAT HIGHWAYS TO GET $ 350 MILLION BOOST Message-ID: <005601cb6db9$4d79db00$e86d9100$@in> http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/ahmedabad/Guj-highways-to-get-350m-b oost/articleshow/6732914.cms GANDHINAGAR: All roads lead to Gujarat. In a major boon to the state's road sector, a high-level World Bank team, visiting Gujarat last week, indicated it would provide $350 million loan to strengthen and widen 1,500 kilometres of arterial state highways out of the state's 6,300-km-long core road network. The eight-member team, led by senior WB official Arnab Bandyopadhyay, told state officials that it will "go ahead" and "prepare" a techno-feasibility study, identifying the state roads they will take up. Officials showed special interest in four-laning or widening to 10 metres of such roads like Rajkot-Morbi, Mehsana-Vijapur, Rajkot-Bhavnagar, Ahmedabad-Modasa as also the eastern state highway, apart from roads connecting Mundra, Hazira, Pipavav and Magdalla ports. To be called Gujarat State Highways Project II, WB decided to take keen interest in taking up more roads, after praising, in a top report, Gujarat State Highways Project-I as "highly satisfactory" and "exemplary" for other states to follow. The $550-million first phase covered 2,000 km of roads - strengthening or widening of Ahmedabad-Viramgam-Maliya, Rajkot-Jamnagar, Velavadar-Jamnagar, Surat-Olpad, Bharuch-Dahej, Mehsana-Palanpur and Shamlaji-Halol - from 2001 to 2007. The WB team, which met senior officials in roads and buildings, transport and finance departments, and made on-the-spot inspection of state highways postmonsoon off Rajkot, Morbi, Bhavnagar, Mehsana, Chanasma and Satlasana, submitted a concrete programme to take up the new project. While the techno-feasibility report will be ready by March 2011, the final project clearance is expected by February 2012. The state government had submitted a proposal for $500 million to WB to strengthen and widen 1,800 km of roads, especially because of fresh possibilities of industrialisation along the Delhi-Mumbai Industrial Corridor project, special investment regions and special economic zones. A WB team led by institutional specialist Ernst Huming visited Gujarat in December 2009 to make preliminary inquiry about the state's needs. Based on its report, the WB sent its second mission last week, and took reports from the state government on the roads that can be taken up. Officials showed special interest in four-laning or widening to 10 metres of such roads like Rajkot-Morbi, Mehsana-Vijapur, Rajkot-Bhavnagar, Ahmedabad-Modasa as also the eastern state highway, apart from roads connecting Mundra, Hazira, Pipavav and Magdalla ports. The WB team insisted that it would like to take up a special component on road safety, including traffic information system, licensing, patrolling, toeing and provision of equipment for all this. The WB, in its report, had found that the road safety was "unfortunately subdued largely due to lack of political and bureaucratic championship". Read more: Guj highways to get $350m boost - The Times of India http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/ahmedabad/Guj-highways-to-get-350m-b oost/articleshow/6732914.cms#ixzz12abz7NEI From subhachops at gmail.com Sun Oct 17 11:28:57 2010 From: subhachops at gmail.com (Subhash) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 11:28:57 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] WHY WE SHOULD RESPECT GUJARAT'S GOVERNANCE AND ECONOMIC ACHIEVEMENTS In-Reply-To: <002801cb6c24$61617330$24245990$@in> References: <002801cb6c24$61617330$24245990$@in> Message-ID: Dear Bipin There is no doubt about the progress made in Gujarat. No one argues against the economic achievements in Gujarat and there are historical reasons for that. But we CANNOT ignore the blot on the face of Gujarat - the communal carnage of 2002, in which the chief Minister was openly involved. If you can commit a crime once, you can commit it again. If Modi is so good about all the economic progress, why can't he apologize to the people of Gujarat for all the hate crimes he did. Please see all the detailed reports on this website: http://www.gujarat-riots.com/ Subhash On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 10:19 AM, Bipin Trivedi wrote: > http://www.dnaindia.com/money/column_why-we-should-respect-gujarat-s-governa > nce-and-economic-achievements_1451797 > > As the state of Gujarat nears completion of the first decade of the 21st > Century, its achievements in economic management and in governance merit > respect and closer study. > > Between, 1999-2000 and 2007-2008, Gujarat's gross state domestic product > (GSDP) in nominal terms grew at a compound annual rate of 15.8% (13.8% in > per person terms). By 2010, its GSDP is approaching $100 billion, and its > per capita income around $1,600, over a fifth higher than the national > average. Gujarat's economy is well-balanced, with primary, secondary, and > tertiary sectors contributing 21%, 33%, and 46%, respectively of GSDP in > 2007-08. The manufacturing sector, key to India's future, accounted for 41% > of employment, the largest share. > > Gujarat, a mid-sized state, accounts for 5% of India's population but > contributes 21% to India's exports and 13% to the industrial production. Its > literacy rate is higher than the national average. While the sex ratio needs > to improve (there were only 920 females per 1,000 men in 2001), consistent > with international norms, females in Gujarat live nearly four years longer > than men. > > Gujarat's achievements have been a result of combining the following set of > characteristics consistently and skilfully, with the particular mix and > sequencing to suit particular context and conditions. > > Article continues below the advertisement... > Outcome or result orientation: Such an orientation has helped minimise > political or outmoded ideological considerations (such as the public sector > being better than the private sector) in economic decision making and in > project management. This has been the case in social sectors such as health > and education, infrastructure provision, or in actively seeking new growth > opportunities to help diversify sources of competitiveness and livelihoods > for a growing number of workers. It has facilitated combining knowledge, > resources, energies and management skills of public, private and > not-for-profit sectors for addressing specific public policy challenges. It > is only in the last decade that plans to use the state's 1,600 km long > coastline to generate broader regional growth have made progress. Gujarat's > private and joint sector ports will positively contribute to India's rapidly > growing international trade; to industrialisation; and to support future > development of inland transport to reduce congestion and reduce transport > and logistics costs. > > Willingness to explicitly address business environment: The mix of factors > which impact business environment include supply of resources and inputs; > progressiveproductivity oriented industrial relations environment, > regulatory framework; physical and social infrastructure; and where > appropriate, fiscal incentives involving taxes, subsidies and budgetary > expenditure. The emphasis on addressing supply side constraints in > infrastructure; in real estate amenities, matching human resources and > skills with projected demands; and improving urban amenities, including > innovations in public transport (such as Ahmedabad's Bus Rapid Transit > System (BRTS)), sets Gujarat apart from most other states in the country. > > India is rapidly urbanising, and Gujarat is expected to experience majority > urban population in the not-too-distant future. Its urban management > experiments should therefore be of relevance elsewhere in the country. BRTS > in Ahmedabad, for example, is raising resources from the market for > expanding its reach. With tight fiscal constraints in urban areas, such a > capability will be increasingly needed to provide urban amenities, and > sustain competitiveness, while improving the quality of everyday life of the > people. > > Gujarat is among the handful of states where the state government has framed > clear policies in vital areas such as agriculture, ports, power, roads and > education. This has helped create greater certainty and consistency, two > important aspects of business environment. Gujarat's share in the > Delhi-Mumbai Industrial Corridor (DMIC) is 62% of the total area and 74% of > the population. Its share in the 1,500 km-long Delhi-Mumbai dedicated > freight corridor (DFC) is 38%. Its readiness to leverage these to enhance > its competitiveness in attracting new economic activities is illustrated by > the speedy and smooth allocation of Tata's Nano car project and the rapid > industrial development of the town of Sanand, near which the Nano plant is > located. Its ability to address issues surrounding land acquisition and > development fairly effectively is a particularly strong advantage as > compared to other states. > To give another illustration, the Kutch region, traditionally arid, is being > transformed through what a magazine has recently termed as 'Green Revolution > Lite'. This is an improved, compacted, and eco-friendly version of the > earlier Green Revolution in Punjab and elsewhere. It is led by ordinary > farmers, but under state policies to address their business environment. > > The two characteristics noted above have contributed to improving Gujarat's > power supply capabilities in an environmentally sustainable manner while > contributing to India's energy security. > > Thus, Gujarat Urja Vikas Nigam Ltd, its state electricity utility, has > signed power purchase agreements with 26 solar power project developers for > 365 mw of electricity. Its electricity regulator has fixed tariff for solar > power. The state has formulated a solar park scheme, which is expected to > contribute to increasing the share of renewable energy in India's energy > consumption. > > Governance philosophy and vision: The third key characteristic has been the > governance philosophy, which has emphasised the vision of India emerging as > a major power by transformation into a knowledge-based economy and society, > while approaching the country's history from a more balanced and > empirical-based perspective. A good illustration is the Statue of Unity > Project after Sardar Patel, who politically unified India after > Independence. Characteristically, the project also includes a research and > academic centre for preserving the unity and integrity of India, on > agriculture to improve land productivity and yields, and on tribal life to > empower them to earn livelihoods from a wide variety of activities over > large geographical areas, rather than continuously depending on government > initiated and funded programmes. The Unity project aims to balance national, > academic, historical and spiritual values. > > Gujarat has also demonstrated strong skills in social entrepreneurship, > defined in simple terms as meeting everyday needs of ordinary people in an > affordable manner by capitalist means. This philosophy, sometimes pursued in > partnership with the government organisations, is much more sustainable and > useful than large centrally planned ill-designed schemes, which make > reversibility difficult even when they are demonstrated to be ineffective. > > Gujarat's people, its political leadership, particularly chief minister > Narendra Modi, its business sector, labour leaders and > social-entrepreneurship oriented not-for-profit sector all have contributed > to Gujarat's achievements and to laying a solid foundation for its future, > though it should not become complacent and regard future progress as > automatic. > > India would clearly be in a better position to emerge as a major power if > more states and the Central government learnt and adapted the state's > approach to economic management and governance. > > The writer is a professor of public policy at the National University of > Singapore and can be reached at: sppasher at nus.edu.sg > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From javedmasoo at gmail.com Sun Oct 17 11:59:33 2010 From: javedmasoo at gmail.com (Javed) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 11:59:33 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Was 2002 Akshardham temple attack engineered? Message-ID: Gujarat Police fudged probe into Akshardham. Police letter survives to tell the tale BY RANA AYYUB GUJARAT’S FAMOUSLY compromised investigators presented it as an open-and-shut case. Just 28 days after two terrorists attacked the Akshardham temple in Gandhinagar on 24 September 2002 and were killed by the security forces, the state Anti-Terrorist Squad (ATS) declared that the perpetrators were Pakistani terrorists. This, at a time they hadn’t made any arrests nor had any leads in the case. Many dramatic developments unfolded after that. Among these was the 2007 TEHELKA sting operation revealing the fraudulent nature of the police encounter in which Sameer Khan Pathan was killed, coincidentally, in the month following the Akshardham encounter. The Narendra Modi government tried to show that Pathan too was trained in Pakistan. The man at the centre of this controversy was the then Deputy Commissioner of Police, DG Vanzara, who is under arrest in the fake encounter case of Sohrabuddin Sheikh — another man whom they tried to project as a Pakistan-trained terrorist, but who turned out to be just an extortionist. In this culture of creating a fear psychosis about Pakistan-trained terrorists, it does not seem surprising now that the Akshardham attack too was quickly labelled as directed by an ‘enemy nation’. But TEHELKA has now uncovered a letter written by an upright IPS officer, Chittaranjan Singh, way back on 22 October 2002, which questioned this glib theory. The original letter was destroyed by compliant police officers and replaced with one that fit neatly into the conspiracy theory. But a diligent officer working under Chittaranjan kept copies for posterity. The letter states: “It has been mentioned in the FIR pertaining to the attack on Akshardham that the two dead accused had arrived from Peshawar and Lahore. It has been found that no evidence in this regard has been found in the probe till this date by the ATS. Then, on the basis of what evidence was this fact written in the complaint on behalf of the state?” This is what Ahmedabad’s then acting Commissioner of Police, Chittaranjan, wrote to then Joint Commissioner of Police (Crime) PP Pande and Director General of Police K Chakravarti. The rest of the letter is a reaction to an FIR lodged on the morning of the Pathan encounter — only the first paragraph is relevant to the Akshardham case. The FIR says, “Pathan was planning to kill Narendra Modi and other BJP leaders and was sent to India after having been trained in Pakistan to unleash terror. This, after two terrorists trained from Peshawar, Pakistan, had attacked the Akshardham temple.” The temple is located next to the official residence of Modi. The original letter was destroyed by police officers and replaced with one that fit into the conspiracy theory The points raised by Chittaranjan, which could be damning for the government, concern not only the manner in which Pathan was killed but the holes in the ‘evidence’ to corroborate the theory that the terrorists had come from Pakistan. It may be recalled that during the Akshardham carnage, in which 33 people were killed and 58 injured, there was nothing on record to prove the nationalities, identity and names of the attackers. Testimonies of the five co-conspirators in the case, all of them arrested around the first anniversary of the attack, were put on record. Recorded under POTA, and though contradictory, the confessions of the five, who were arrested on the basis of a statement of a star witness, Ashfaq Bhavnagri, was used to establish that the two terrorists had come from across the border. Three of the five were awarded death sentences, while two imprisoned for life. The names of the dead terrorists in the judgement were Murtuza alias Abdulla alias Doctor 2 and Ashraf Ali alias Doctor 3. However, as defence lawyer Khalid Shaikh points out, the confessions of two of the five co-conspirators, Abdul Qayyum and Chand Khan, did not match each other when it came to naming the slain terrorists. “In two different confessions, the names of the slain men are contradictory. The terrorists also carried a letter saying that they had come to attack India. The letter remained unstained despite several rounds of bullets being pumped into them and water jets sprayed over them,” he adds. The lack of damage to this letter saved two of the accused conspirators — Adam Suleiman Ajmeri and Abdul Qayyum — from death. (The third accused, Shyam Mian alias Chand Khan, who too was awarded the death sentence, is yet to challenge his conviction). In response to a petition filed by lawyer KTS Tulsi, the SC stayed the death sentence on 9 July this year and sought the government’s response to a plea for reinvestigation by the CBI. INTERESTINGLY, THE petition pointed to facts that would find resonance with the inter-departmental exchange of letters in 2002 between Chittaranjan, Vanzara, and other senior Gujarat Police officers that questioned the arrests made by Vanzara and his team. The petition says, “It is submitted that the investigating officer, ACP Shri Singhal, never visited Jammu and Kashmir or Hyderabad, which as per the prosecution was where the conspiracy was alleged to have been hatched. It is interesting to note that Vanzara, who as per the prosecution went to J&K, and was even otherwise a material witness, has not been examined by the prosecution.” The plea in the apex court was that the police had falsely implicated the ‘conspirators’ and had not been able to establish the identity of the slain terrorists. While it is too early to comment on the investigation, what is unnerving is that the letter accessed by TEHELKA has till date not been brought on record, even in the Pathan case, in reply to whose FIR it was written. In fact, this letter (serial number 3788/02) was replaced by another, minus the first paragraph, after Chittaranjan was pressurised by PK Mishra, Modi’s chief secretary, to lie low. But copies were preserved by Chittaranjan’s junior, Satish Verma. Mishra, it is reliably learnt, had told Chittaranjan that Vanzara and his men were working against people who were terrorists and deshdrohis, and so, he should take back his letter. Will the government persist with this sham, bending probes to its will and constructing scenarios that vilify Muslims, implying their loyalties lie across the border? The growing evidence against this web of deceit suggests it would be unwise to continue these attempts to fool the people. rana at tehelka.com >From Tehelka Magazine, Vol 7, Issue 42, Dated October 23, 2010 From aliens at dataone.in Sun Oct 17 12:18:43 2010 From: aliens at dataone.in (Bipin Trivedi) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 12:18:43 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [SPAM] - Re: WHY WE SHOULD RESPECT GUJARAT'S GOVERNANCE AND ECONOMIC ACHIEVEMENTS In-Reply-To: References: <002801cb6c24$61617330$24245990$@in> Message-ID: <000601cb6dc7$5b1c1e40$11545ac0$@in> Dear Subhash, Again let me tell you that 2002 riots are self reaction of the 59 people burned in the train coach where most of the people (middle/upper middle class) where on the road on mass base and police has its limitation to act strictly in that case. If coach burning incident would have not occurred, riot would have also not there. Communal violence wherever happened in India, before and after independence, is always blot. Communal violence happened in many places earlier, why only Gujarat is being targeted is questionable. In the past, Gujarat riots where there in much larger scale than 2002 and lasted for about 2/3 months where curfew remains for about 15 days continuously in the couple of occasions and that was totally state sponsored by Madhavsinh Solanki, Chiman Patel and even center hand was also there during that Hindu suffered a lot. But since the Hindu was suffered no hallabol, no exaggeration was made!!! Thanks Bipin Trivedi -----Original Message----- From: Subhash [mailto:subhachops at gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2010 11:29 AM To: Bipin Trivedi Cc: sarai-list Subject: [SPAM] - Re: [Reader-list] WHY WE SHOULD RESPECT GUJARAT'S GOVERNANCE AND ECONOMIC ACHIEVEMENTS Dear Bipin There is no doubt about the progress made in Gujarat. No one argues against the economic achievements in Gujarat and there are historical reasons for that. But we CANNOT ignore the blot on the face of Gujarat - the communal carnage of 2002, in which the chief Minister was openly involved. If you can commit a crime once, you can commit it again. If Modi is so good about all the economic progress, why can't he apologize to the people of Gujarat for all the hate crimes he did. Please see all the detailed reports on this website: http://www.gujarat-riots.com/ Subhash On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 10:19 AM, Bipin Trivedi wrote: > http://www.dnaindia.com/money/column_why-we-should-respect-gujarat-s-governa > nce-and-economic-achievements_1451797 > > As the state of Gujarat nears completion of the first decade of the 21st > Century, its achievements in economic management and in governance merit > respect and closer study. > > Between, 1999-2000 and 2007-2008, Gujarat's gross state domestic product > (GSDP) in nominal terms grew at a compound annual rate of 15.8% (13.8% in > per person terms). By 2010, its GSDP is approaching $100 billion, and its > per capita income around $1,600, over a fifth higher than the national > average. Gujarat's economy is well-balanced, with primary, secondary, and > tertiary sectors contributing 21%, 33%, and 46%, respectively of GSDP in > 2007-08. The manufacturing sector, key to India's future, accounted for 41% > of employment, the largest share. > > Gujarat, a mid-sized state, accounts for 5% of India's population but > contributes 21% to India's exports and 13% to the industrial production. Its > literacy rate is higher than the national average. While the sex ratio needs > to improve (there were only 920 females per 1,000 men in 2001), consistent > with international norms, females in Gujarat live nearly four years longer > than men. > > Gujarat's achievements have been a result of combining the following set of > characteristics consistently and skilfully, with the particular mix and > sequencing to suit particular context and conditions. > > Article continues below the advertisement... > Outcome or result orientation: Such an orientation has helped minimise > political or outmoded ideological considerations (such as the public sector > being better than the private sector) in economic decision making and in > project management. This has been the case in social sectors such as health > and education, infrastructure provision, or in actively seeking new growth > opportunities to help diversify sources of competitiveness and livelihoods > for a growing number of workers. It has facilitated combining knowledge, > resources, energies and management skills of public, private and > not-for-profit sectors for addressing specific public policy challenges. It > is only in the last decade that plans to use the state's 1,600 km long > coastline to generate broader regional growth have made progress. Gujarat's > private and joint sector ports will positively contribute to India's rapidly > growing international trade; to industrialisation; and to support future > development of inland transport to reduce congestion and reduce transport > and logistics costs. > > Willingness to explicitly address business environment: The mix of factors > which impact business environment include supply of resources and inputs; > progressiveproductivity oriented industrial relations environment, > regulatory framework; physical and social infrastructure; and where > appropriate, fiscal incentives involving taxes, subsidies and budgetary > expenditure. The emphasis on addressing supply side constraints in > infrastructure; in real estate amenities, matching human resources and > skills with projected demands; and improving urban amenities, including > innovations in public transport (such as Ahmedabad's Bus Rapid Transit > System (BRTS)), sets Gujarat apart from most other states in the country. > > India is rapidly urbanising, and Gujarat is expected to experience majority > urban population in the not-too-distant future. Its urban management > experiments should therefore be of relevance elsewhere in the country. BRTS > in Ahmedabad, for example, is raising resources from the market for > expanding its reach. With tight fiscal constraints in urban areas, such a > capability will be increasingly needed to provide urban amenities, and > sustain competitiveness, while improving the quality of everyday life of the > people. > > Gujarat is among the handful of states where the state government has framed > clear policies in vital areas such as agriculture, ports, power, roads and > education. This has helped create greater certainty and consistency, two > important aspects of business environment. Gujarat's share in the > Delhi-Mumbai Industrial Corridor (DMIC) is 62% of the total area and 74% of > the population. Its share in the 1,500 km-long Delhi-Mumbai dedicated > freight corridor (DFC) is 38%. Its readiness to leverage these to enhance > its competitiveness in attracting new economic activities is illustrated by > the speedy and smooth allocation of Tata's Nano car project and the rapid > industrial development of the town of Sanand, near which the Nano plant is > located. Its ability to address issues surrounding land acquisition and > development fairly effectively is a particularly strong advantage as > compared to other states. > To give another illustration, the Kutch region, traditionally arid, is being > transformed through what a magazine has recently termed as 'Green Revolution > Lite'. This is an improved, compacted, and eco-friendly version of the > earlier Green Revolution in Punjab and elsewhere. It is led by ordinary > farmers, but under state policies to address their business environment. > > The two characteristics noted above have contributed to improving Gujarat's > power supply capabilities in an environmentally sustainable manner while > contributing to India's energy security. > > Thus, Gujarat Urja Vikas Nigam Ltd, its state electricity utility, has > signed power purchase agreements with 26 solar power project developers for > 365 mw of electricity. Its electricity regulator has fixed tariff for solar > power. The state has formulated a solar park scheme, which is expected to > contribute to increasing the share of renewable energy in India's energy > consumption. > > Governance philosophy and vision: The third key characteristic has been the > governance philosophy, which has emphasised the vision of India emerging as > a major power by transformation into a knowledge-based economy and society, > while approaching the country's history from a more balanced and > empirical-based perspective. A good illustration is the Statue of Unity > Project after Sardar Patel, who politically unified India after > Independence. Characteristically, the project also includes a research and > academic centre for preserving the unity and integrity of India, on > agriculture to improve land productivity and yields, and on tribal life to > empower them to earn livelihoods from a wide variety of activities over > large geographical areas, rather than continuously depending on government > initiated and funded programmes. The Unity project aims to balance national, > academic, historical and spiritual values. > > Gujarat has also demonstrated strong skills in social entrepreneurship, > defined in simple terms as meeting everyday needs of ordinary people in an > affordable manner by capitalist means. This philosophy, sometimes pursued in > partnership with the government organisations, is much more sustainable and > useful than large centrally planned ill-designed schemes, which make > reversibility difficult even when they are demonstrated to be ineffective. > > Gujarat's people, its political leadership, particularly chief minister > Narendra Modi, its business sector, labour leaders and > social-entrepreneurship oriented not-for-profit sector all have contributed > to Gujarat's achievements and to laying a solid foundation for its future, > though it should not become complacent and regard future progress as > automatic. > > India would clearly be in a better position to emerge as a major power if > more states and the Central government learnt and adapted the state's > approach to economic management and governance. > > The writer is a professor of public policy at the National University of > Singapore and can be reached at: sppasher at nus.edu.sg > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From iram at sarai.net Sun Oct 17 13:01:53 2010 From: iram at sarai.net (Iram Ghufran) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 13:31:53 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] roundtable on comparitive urbansims Message-ID: <4CBAA669.8060706@sarai.net> University of Heidelberg’s Cluster of Excellence Asia and Europe in a Global Context, Sarai Programme, Centre for the Study of Developing Societies, Delhi and the Max Mueller Bhavan, Delhi invite you to a roundtable on *Comparative Urbanisms* 20th October, 2010, 6 pm Venue: Seminar Room, CSDS The development of the humanities and social sciences has come with powerful specializations in terms of how space, time, and media can be studied and theorised. Yet, there are several issues that cross geographical, historical, and media borders, so that the classical concepts of culture based on territory, language, ethnicity and nation can no longer account for the intrinsic complexity of human groups and their relations. Indeed, today, these cultural flows and their entanglements have become even more evident and have been accelerated by new media and transport systems. China and India, Shanghai and New Delhi, allow us to address these issues, especially in terms of their ambiguous similarity and difference. This seems particularly productive if we look at media, certain events, such as the Expo in Shanghai and the Commonwealth Games in New Delhi, as well as imaginaries and aspirations that tie people to, or distance them from, sites of urbanisation. In this context, we bring together several scholars who speak to the nature of the transcultural flows from the site of their respective intellectual engagements, Delhi and Shanghai. Invited speakers include Christian Henriot, Marie Sander, Tina Schilbach, Jeffrey Wasserstrom on Shanghai and Amita Baviskar, Melissa Butcher, Ravi Vasudevan and Ravi Sundaram, on Delhi. The roundtable will be followed by a reception, hosted by Sarai Programme, CSDS. From nc-agricowi at netcologne.de Mon Oct 18 13:08:24 2010 From: nc-agricowi at netcologne.de (nmf2010) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 09:38:24 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] =?iso-8859-1?q?Program_-_Week_43__on_NewMediaFest?= =?iso-8859-1?q?=272010?= Message-ID: <20101018093825.E9646AA5.DB23AD3E@192.168.0.3> NewMediaFest'2010 ----------------------------------------- program- week 43 --> 18-24 October 2010 http://2010.newmediafest.org/?p=1110 ----------------------------------------- 1. ----------------------------------------- Feature of the week 43 http://2010.newmediafest.org/?p=1106 JavaMuseum is happy to continue its 10 year celebation on "Celebrate!" featuring this week two Internet based works --> The World of Female Avatars by Evelin Stermitz (Austria) & Infondoalmar (Under the Sea) by David Boardman & Paolo Gerbaudo (Italy) ----------------------------------------- 2 ----------------------------------------- VideoChannel Cologne & artvideoKOELN proudly present Feature of the Month October 2010 http://2010.newmediafest.org/?p=1084 Videoart from Croatia curated by Wilfried Agricola de Cologne featuring videos by --> Dario Bardic, Ana Bilankov, Adam Dragojevic' Silvana Dunat, Darko Fritz, Zeljka Fuderer Levak Miranda Herceg, Toni Mestrovic, Ana Opalic Filip Peruzovic, Davor Sanvincenti, Martina Skender Bruna Tomsic', Sonja VUK, Andrea Zrno ----------------------------------------- 3. ----------------------------------------- Feature of the Month September 2010 on NewMediaFest'2010 http://2010.newmediafest.org/?p=1017 SoundLAB VII - soundCELEBRATION was releasing on 1 September 2010, the 7th edition of SoundLAB in sequence since 2004, celebrating soundart at it's best on occasion of the 10th anniversáry of [NewMediaArtProjectNetwork]||cologne as the highlight of 7 years promoting soundart as a creative form of digital art. ----------------------------------------- NewMediaFest'2010 10 Years [NewMediaArtProjectNetwork]:||cologne global heritage of digital culture 1 January - 31 December 2010 http://2010.newmediafest.org director and chief curator: Wilfried Agricola de Cologne 2010 [at] newmediafest.org --------------------------------------- From chandni_parekh at yahoo.com Tue Oct 19 19:05:55 2010 From: chandni_parekh at yahoo.com (Chandni Parekh) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 06:35:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Vikalp@Prithvi Screening of Academy Award-Winning Film 'Harlan County, USA', Oct 25, Bombay Message-ID: <919108.49125.qm@web54410.mail.re2.yahoo.com> To view the event poster or RSVP on Facebook, visit http://on.fb.me/9522i0 Vikalp at Prithvi Presents HARLAN COUNTY, USA There is no bloodier chapter in the history of U.S. labor than the struggle of coal miners, and some of the most violent episodes within this chapter occurred in Harlan County, Kentucky. The people who live there remember it as “bloody Harlan,” the site of fierce battles between miners and coal companies that culminated on May 4, 1931, in a shootout that left a large number of dead and wounded. Director Barbara Kopple puts the strike into perspective by giving us some background on the historical plight of the miners. The song that fixed this struggle forever in the folklore of U.S. labor—“Which Side are You On?”—plays an important role in the film as a constant reminder of the historical continuity of the miners’ fight. The film won the 1976 Academy Award for Best Documentary Feature. Runtime: 103 min IMDbRating: 8.4/10 Monday, 25 October, 7 PM Prithvi House, Opp Prithvi Theatre, Janki Kutir, Juhu Church Road, Mumbai Admission Free, On A First-Come-First-Seated Basis For any queries, email vikalp.prithvi at gmail.com Join the Vikalp at Prithvi group on Facebook! From indersalim at gmail.com Tue Oct 19 19:21:08 2010 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 19:21:08 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Mir on Ayodha dispute Message-ID: ‎" hum na kahte thhe ke mat dair-o-harram ki raah chal, ab ye daae hashr tak skeikh-o-brahmin mein raha" Mir-teqe-mir 1722-1810 ( Did i not tell you, do not take the paths of temple and the mosque. Now the contention between sheikh and the brahmin will go on till doomsday ) -- with love is From pheeta.ram at gmail.com Tue Oct 19 20:52:08 2010 From: pheeta.ram at gmail.com (Pheeta Ram) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 20:52:08 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Mir on Ayodha dispute In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: mir ki baat sune na koi ! (Nobody listens to Mir) I think its time that we subject the candidates for Judicial and other Civil Services to a comprehensive brain/mind scan and detect potential sanatani hindus so that they can be weeded out well in time. Otherwise, we shall continue deserving Judges of the brand similar to those who gave the recent Ayodhya judgement. From taraprakash at gmail.com Tue Oct 19 22:08:32 2010 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 12:38:32 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Mir on Ayodha dispute References: Message-ID: Poor judges, poor media. No matter what they say there will be someone to attack them. When it looked like some give and take will resolve the problem, the proponents of no land even of the size of the point of a needle have woken up. Here the judges are giving them 2-3rd, and the other party 1-3rd. Life will be so much boring in India if the Masjid-mandir dispute is resolved. It was surprising to hear the voices from both parties that wanted to resolve the dispute and put the matter to rest. There seems to be the festival of getting poetic on reader list: Those who wanted to resolve, I heard them say: Kya the ham kya ho gae Aur kya honge abhi Aao ham mil baith Suljhaaen samasyaaen sabhi (What we used to be, what have we become and what will we be in future {if this goes on}. Let us sit together and resolve all the problems between us). But what was not surprising was that those who didn't want the matter to resolve, there voices were allowed to become prominent. I heard them say: Laathi goli khaange Ham mandir vaheen banaaenge Saugandh ram ki khate hain Ham masjid vaheen banaeenge. I hear the messengers of peace say again: Chal Khusaro ghar aapne Raen bhai chahun des. (It's time to go back home (says Amir Khusaro) it's dark all around.) Media and judges always have someone to attack them, no matter what they say, I hear them say Sacchi baat kahi thi mein ne Logon ne suli par charhaya Zahar ka mujhko jaam pilaya Fir bhi un ko chan na aaya. Sab se behtar kabhi na banna Jag ke rahvar kabhi na banna Pir payamvar kabh na banna. Sacchi baat kahi thi mein ne. (I said the right thing, people crucified me, made me drink poison, still they were not happy. Sigh ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pheeta Ram" To: "Inder Salim" Cc: "reader-list" Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 11:22 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Mir on Ayodha dispute > mir ki baat sune na koi ! > (Nobody listens to Mir) > > I think its time that we subject the candidates for Judicial and other > Civil > Services to a comprehensive brain/mind scan and detect > potential sanatani hindus so that they can be weeded out well in time. > Otherwise, we shall continue deserving Judges of the brand similar to > those > who gave the recent Ayodhya judgement. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From javedmasoo at gmail.com Tue Oct 19 23:29:04 2010 From: javedmasoo at gmail.com (Javed) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 23:29:04 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Now Shiv Sena demands ban on burqa Message-ID: Now Shiv Sena demands ban on burqa PTI, Oct 19, 2010, 12.07pm IST MUMBAI: Shiv Sena, which is facing flak over pushing Mumbai University to withdraw Rohinton Mistry's Booker prize-nominated book, today opened a new front by calling for a ban on burqa (veil) worn by Muslim women. "If the burqa is used to steal children, then we demand that it be banned as per law," an editorial in the party mouthpiece 'Saamna' said. A two-month-old baby boy was kidnapped on October 15 allegedly by an unidentified burqa-clad woman from a civic-run hospital in suburban Santa Cruz. Lauding the French government on its decision to ban 'burqas' and other full-body robes worn by some Muslim women, the editorial said the French President had taken a 'revolutionary step' to ban the burqa. "When burqa was banned in Turkey by Kemal Pasha, Islam did not come in between. Why only is it so in India?" it said. Sena is under fire for forcing the University of Mumbai to drop the Booker nominated novel by Rohinton Mistry, 'Such a Long Journey', from its BA syllabus, alleging that the book 'poorly represented' the saffron party. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/mumbai/Now-Shiv-Sena-demands-ban-on-burqa/articleshow/6773397.cms From iram at sarai.net Wed Oct 20 11:38:59 2010 From: iram at sarai.net (Iram Ghufran) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 12:08:59 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] FWD: Technical Lecture on UID in Bangalore Message-ID: <4CBE877B.8000000@sarai.net> Subject: 20th Oct 5 pm.Technical Lecture on UID in Bangalore at Centre for Internet Society, Bangalore (CIS) From: Vinay Baindur Karnataka - Bangalore Lecture on UID Staff Reporter BANGALORE: K. Gopinath from the Indian Institute of Science and Sunil Abraham from the Centre for Internet and Society will give a lecture on the technical aspects of UID on October 20 at the Centre for Internet Society, Bangalore. The speakers will evaluate the online pan-India UID system and identify some issues that may need to be addressed. The lecture will be held at No. 194, Second ‘C' Cross, Domlur 2nd Stage, between 5 p.m. and 7 p.m. From nagraj.adve at gmail.com Wed Oct 20 17:48:58 2010 From: nagraj.adve at gmail.com (Nagraj Adve) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 17:48:58 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: POSCO report In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Harsh Dobhal Date: 20 October 2010 17:36 Subject: Fwd: POSCO report To: Nagraj Adve ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Shalini Gera Date: Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 4:28 PM Subject: POSCO report To: Harsh Dobhal Contact: G. Agrawal/S. Gera: +91 9818 19 1395 (India) Biju Mathew +1 917 232 8437 (USA East Coast) Anu Mandavilli +1 408 480 5805 (USA West Coast) mzpsginfo at gmail.com http://miningzone.org For Immediate Release October 20, 2010 POSCO Project Justification Based On Flawed Data Orissa Government and POSCO Have Misled the Public on Benefits to the Country, says New International Report A team of US-based researchers have released a report today claiming that the POSCO project in Orissa is fundamentally flawed and economically unviable, and that the company and the government of Orissa have deliberately misled the public by putting forth false data and numbers. Coming close on the heels of the divided report of the POSCO Enquiry Committee, where the majority of members held that the POSCO project is illegal, the new report, Iron and Steal: The POSCO-India Story, authored by the Mining Zone People’s Solidarity Group (MZPSG), goes a step further. It argues that apart from violations of law and procedure, the POSCO project has been justified based upon deeply flawed numbers with benefits exaggerated and costs purposefully minimized. “This sorcery of flawed numbers has been perpetrated on the country by the Government of Orissa, POSCO and the National Council for Applied Economic Research (NCAER),” said Dr. Girish Agrawal, a California-based lawyer and civil engineer experienced in large infrastructure projects, who is a member of MZPSG and one of the authors of the report. Iron and Steal is a data-rich and comprehensive report, which has received the endorsement of several renowned intellectuals including Amit Bhaduri (Prof. Emeritus of Economics, JNU), Prashant Bhushan (Advocate, Supreme Court) and Manoranjan Mohanty (Prof. of Political Science, Delhi University). At the press conference today, Shankar Gopalakrishnan, with the Campaign for Survival and Dignity, said that the very reason that the POSCO steel plant was mainly located on forest land was that at the time of the signing of the MoU in 2005, the government could simply hand over the forest land to any company, without giving any thought to people dependent on it. It is only after the Forest Rights Act (FRA) came into effect in 2006 that the rights of forest dwellers have been recognized and this is what makes FRA compliance so hotly contested in the region. Prof Amit Bhaduri pointed out that in the current neoliberal environment, the political leadership is only interested in promoting a climate for investors, even at the cost of all democratic norms and constitutional rights. Commenting on the report, Prof. Mohanty said that Iron &Steal is “the most comprehensive, most persuasive, the best researched report on the POSCO Project.” While substantiating the various illegalities and procedural irregularities in granting clearances to the project, Iron & Steel suggests that the very reason for the violation of democratic principles and lack of transparency is that the base data on which the project is justified is itself wrong and therefore could not be allowed to come out. Iron &Steel concludes that the POSCO project has been allowed to proceed without a basic socio-economic study, a complete blockade on discussion of the current local economy, wild exaggerations of benefits and a deliberate overlooking of infrastructural and ecological costs. The primary findings of the report include: · the existence of a thriving agrarian economy that the Government of Orissa has refused to acknowledge in Coastal Jagatsinghpur with average annual net yields of over Rs. 40,000 per decimal of land (100 decimals = 1 acre) per year in sharp contrast to the paltry Rs. 11,500 per decimal being offered as one time compensation by the GoO/POSCO, · gross exaggeration of employment benefits, EIRR and tax revenues by the Orissa, POSCO and NCAER, · deliberate and systematic procedural violations for environmental and socio-economic impact assessment by both the government of Orissa and POSCO, · failure to conduct a socio-economic study that would measure the impact of 22,000 people being displaced and more than 50,000 people being affected by the project in coastal Jagatsinghpur and Khandadhar hills. With the release of Iron and Steal, MZPSG has also announced the launch of its international information campaign on the POSCO India project. Thus far, the POSCO project has only been hyped as India’s largest FDI and much has been written about the scale of the project in terms of its captive mines in Khandadhar, and integrated plant and port in coastal Jagatsinghpur. The objective of the report is to focus on the real data around the POSCO project and increase the awareness within the international community about problems with the project. The Mining Zone People’s Solidarity Group is an international research group focused on India, with core interests in the “new economic policy” and development model in India. We do not seek or accept any funding from external sources and all expenses are paid for by the researchers themselves. We have been following the development of several large projects in India, and for the last six months, we have been investigating claims made by the central and state governments about the benefits to the country due to the proposed POSCO integrated steel project and captive port in Orissa.For more details, visit: www.miningzone.org -- ### -- From drew at futureeverything.org Wed Oct 20 19:58:34 2010 From: drew at futureeverything.org (drew at futureeverything.org) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 07:28:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Festival as Lab commission - Deadline 24 October Message-ID: <53172.92.244.187.169.1287584914.squirrel@2010.futureeverything.org> FESTIVAL AS LAB ECAS CALL FOR ENTRIES Call for Entries Deadline: 24 October 2010 http://submit.futureeverything.org/ecas-festival-as-lab To launch the new ECAS European festivals network, a Euro 10,000 Commission is available for a new project responding to the theme Festival as Lab. This call for proposals seeks projects which take the form of an experiment, a prototype or a trial in a new type of art object, technology or form of participation. The commissioned project will receive a Euro 5,000 fee, up to Euro 5,000 production costs, plus additional limited staging costs and support. The deadline for submissions is 24th October 2010. Proposals which do not win the commission may still be considered for inclusion in the ECAS festivals and will automatically be considered for other sources of support. All will receive full marketing benefits, management and network support. Info and submit here: http://submit.futureeverything.org/ecas-festival-as-lab ABOUT FESTIVAL AS LAB THEME In its first year, the theme of the ECAS festival network is Festival as Lab - cultural festivals as experimental spaces or laboratories where we can experiment and play with future art, music and ideas. Festival as Lab was developed over 15 years by one of the ECAS festivals, FutureEverything, which is conceived and designed as a 'living lab' for prototyping the future. We are looking for projects which engage the festival audience and artists in a participatory experiment in creating a new kind of artwork, a new form of participation, new understanding on art or technology, or a new and innovative way of presenting inspirational art. Proposals should experiment with the festival format, transforming the festival environment into a lab or experimental space. PRESENTATION AT ECAS FESTIVALS The successful project will be shown at the festivals CTM (Berlin, January 2011), FutureEverything (Manchester, May 2011) and CYNETART (Dresden, November 2011). Additionally, festivals around the world in the ICAS network including MUTEK will explore the theme of Festival as Lab and may choose to present some of the submitted projects although there is no guarantee they will do so. CTM will present work-in-progress, FutureEverything will present the full project, and CYNETART will either present the full project or a version of the project. In your submission please state if it is possible to present the full project at multiple festivals. If not, please provide details of an alternative way of presenting the project at the other festivals (eg. showing documentation). ELIGIBILITY Submissions must be new works and must respond directly to the Festival as Lab theme. To be eligible the project must be: •An experiment, test, prototype or trial •Presenting a new type of art object, technology or form of participation •A new project that has not been realised •Using the setting of the festival in an inventive way Projects can work with sound or any other artistic or technical medium. Examples of anticipated project types: •A city-wide participatory art-research project using the digital, physical and human infrastructure of a festival. •An open workshop involving experimental cultural activities which simultaneously serves to document and evaluate those activities. ABOUT ECAS AND ICAS ECAS - Networking Tomorrow's Art For An Unknown Future ECAS (European Cities of Advanced Sound) is a new European festivals network supported by the European Union within the CULTURE PROGRAMME (2007-2013). It features music festivals plus festivals involving music alongside digital and other artforms, and strives to create collaborative partnership between the international festivals. ICAS (International Cities of Advanced Sound) is a global network of independent non-profit Organizations dedicated to advancing sound cultures, music and related arts. Festival as Lab - Info and submit here: http://submit.futureeverything.org/ecas-festival-as-lab From a.mani.cms at gmail.com Thu Oct 21 06:29:11 2010 From: a.mani.cms at gmail.com (A. Mani) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 06:29:11 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Terrorism for Justifying Imperialism Message-ID: ________________________________________________________________ David Colemann Headley Is A CIA-FBI Agent By Feroze Mithiborwala 18 October, 2010 Countercurrents.org The Government should be ashamed at the treatment being meted out to India by the US. It is clear that Headley is a mass murderer & is being protected & shielded by the Obama Administration. Leave alone being extradited, now Attorney-General Eric Holder tells us that that our security agencies will have no direct access to Headley at all. This is very clear from the statements of Timothy J. Roemer (US Ambassador) who stated that “no decision on direct access for India to David Headley has been made.” Though now due to the anger of the Indian people, certain statements of granting access to Headley are being made. Not that interrogating Headley, while he remains ion US custody will help our cause. Recent revelations confirm the fact that David Coleman Headley is a CIA-FBI operative whose task was to organize & expedite the Mumbai 26/11 terror attacks. Thus the role of the CIA, FBI & Mossad in fomenting & planning the Mumbai 26/11 terror attacks are proved beyond doubt & need to be investigated by the patriotic elements within the security apparatus & the media. Only the naive & corrupt can continue to deny this fact, more so to the detriment of our national sovereignty & security. David Headley is a CIA asset & they have invested a lot of their precious resources in training him & therefore they are going to atrocious levels to protect him. The CIA always does. Thus under the cover of the American Judicial system, Headley will disappear into the prisons, soon acquire a new identity, new papers & documents, passports & Visas, Credit Cards & Bank Accounts . . . a new identity & will resurface, doing what he is best at, a terrorist-drug dealer-mercenary. Undoubtedly, the CIA-FBI, which are the world’s leading mercenary agencies, whose forte is too engineer assassinations, terror & wars, has infiltrated sections of the Indian political leadership & our internal security, as it has the Pakistani ISI, Military & Political establishment. Thus now the US intervention & occupation of the South Asian region is deepening by the day, as it keeps on increasing the tensions between India & Pakistan as well as China. It is an old imperial ploy of divide & rule along religious & sectarian lines as well as between nations. The terror attack Mumbai 26/11, was directed at all of South Asia & this point must be understood by all those who are committed to the cause of South Asia. The 26/11 terror attack has only aided the US/Israeli effort to create an atmosphere conducive to increasing its pervasive & corrupting influence in determining both our National & International policies. Very true indeed!! Now the newspapers are clearly raising the issue of Headley being a CIA-FBI operative, a fact that we had stated initially as soon as the story appeared. The reports also state that the CIA was aware about the Headley-Rana linkage! Indian authorities had suspected that Headley was a CIA agent. There are taped conversations between Headley & Rana. Moreover, the simple fact of the matter is that Headley is involved in the terror attack & should be immediately extradited to the Indian authorities for interrogation & should be tried & sentenced like Kasab (who is a mere foot-soldier & his trial is a contrived circus, despite all the media attention) In the news report that appeared in the Indian Express (pg 5, 10/12/09), the hotel owner is openly blaming the police for having 'misplaced' Headley's 'C-form' & has filed a complaint on the matter. The hotel owner in his complaint to the Ajmer Superintendent of Police, has stated that he had also submitted the C-forms of two other Israelis along with that of Headley. So why was Headley arrested by the FBI? The answer to that is that Indian Intel was hard on the heels of Headley & were about to arrest him. It was then that the FBI whisked away Headley to protect him. Now that he has been subjected to the laws of the US judicial system, he is beyond our reach. Leave alone a trial for Headley's central role in the 26/11 attacks, we do not even have the right to interrogate him. In fact it is suspected that, it was Headley who was the CIA mole in the LeT, who was passing out information on the coming 26/11 terror attack. This was partly shared by the CIA with the Indian authorities & had specifically mentioned the Taj & that the attack would come by sea. There are two significant points to note: 1) How much information did the CIA actually divulge to India - very very meagre it is clear. 2) More intriguingly with the Pakistani authorities & it's friends in the ISI & the Military with which the CIA has a very deep & intimate relationship, stretching over 6 decades - it supposedly shared none !!! Any moron is full aware that a 26/11 style attack could lead to a war, in fact a nuclear war between India & Pakistan, then why did not the CIA warn it's friends on either side & thus prevent the attack ?? For the simple reason that it is in the strategic interests of the US & Israel to create a warlike situation across South Asia. The larger objective is for India to mobilise & deploy it's military into the war theatre in Afghanistan if required & later in the coming war on Iran, which is imminent. The tensions & warmongering has now fuelled an arms race & both the countries are amongst the top buyers of weapons, required to protect their half-starving masses. Also do note that during the phase of the worst series of terror attacks between 2006-08, Headley was present in that period & was flying into India mainly from Pakistan. Yet our authorities did not once suspect or interrogate him?? Unfortunately the Indian People are not that naive. This clearly means that there are certain forces within the country that are allied to the US & Israel & working in tandem to foment terror attacks. Do especially note the period between August 2007 & September 2008 as this was during which we passed through the worst national crisis over the Indo-US Nuclear Deal. The attacks coincide with Headleys' presence in India (Josy Joseph, 17/11/09, DNA ). The terror attacks in Hyderabad II (25/8/07), Bangalore (25/7/08), Ahmedabad & Surat (26/7/08) & Delhi (13/9/08). All these blasts made it easier for the pro-US elements to take the country into the American-Israeli strategic orbit in the name of fighting the global war on terror. Again even the blasts that Shri Hemant Karkare has traced to the Abhinav Bharat, find a relation to Headley's footprints. Thus he is present during Malegaon (8/9/06), Samjhauta Express (19/2/07), Mecca Masjid, Hyderabad I (18/5/07). Thus clearly Headley was also co-ordinating his attacks with the Abhinav Bharat & Sanatan Sanstha as well as with the Indian Mujahedeen (which is a creation of Intel services comprising criminals & informers from within the Muslim community). We thus can infer the following from the latest revelation: 1) David Headley's trail as he traveled across the country to & identify the sites for terror attacks was & is being covered up by the police on the instructions of the pro-CIA/Mossad sections of the Intelligence Bureau. 2) This was the similar case in the city of Mumbai, where Headley's membership form at the 'Moksh Gymnasium' had both his photograph & signature 'missing'. The flat which he rented on Bridge Candy has no agreement papers & so is the case with his office in Tardeo. 3) The fact that the hotel owner also submitted two forms of Israeli's on that day, also could mean that Headley was also being guided by Mossad agents to identify Jewish targets, which they finally did & thus Nariman House. 4) Headley's very entry into the country has been managed with the connivance of the authorities at the highest levels. And thus even though Headley was a drug dealer having faced a jail sentence, Pakistani born, could still manage to get a clearance. Also do note that he was travelling directly via Pakistan into India. The clearance of his Visa from the Indian Consulate in Chicago actually requires criminal proceedings against the Indian Consul general, the Indian Ambassador & the Minister & the concerned officers in the Home Ministry in Delhi. That was the reason that the authorities panicked & said that Headley's papers at the Chicago Consulate had gone missing. They later found them. With changed signatures, we guess! 5) It is clear that after working for the US Drug Enforcement Agency (DEA), Headley was later was recruited & trained by the CIA-FBI. 6) The CIA-FBI then used Headley in their plan to execute the 26/11 attack in Mumbai. Headley's task was to travel across the country, identify the targets & provide information to his CIA-FBI handlers. It was the CIA-FBI who then passed the information onto their ISI / LeT contacts in Pakistan. 7) Headley's role was also to draw in his LeT contacts to plan the 26/11 terror attacks. 8) The IB, that has been colluding with the CIA-FBI, instructed it's plants within the police force to cover Headley's trail, which they dutifully performed as is the case both in Mumbai & in Pushkar. Thus as our inference on the Headley matter is the following: a) It proves the fact that David Headley was a CIA-FBI agent sent to India to assist in the preparation & implementation of the Mumbai 26/11 terror attacks. b) The US intelligence, led by the CIA-FBI & the Israeli MOSSAD played a central role in co-ordinating the attack & America is complicit in the planning, financing & execution of the Mumbai 26/11 terror attacks. c) The CIA-FBI used their LeT / ISI agents in Pakistan to implement the same d) Similarly the CIA-FBI along with certain elements within the Intelligence-Security apparatus & organizations within India were instrumental in fomenting the terror attack. Undoubtedly the larger strategic objectives of the Imperial gameplan are being achieved, out of which one was to establish the CIA-FBI & Mossad as our allies & thus penetrate & undermine our external & internal security structures. Just imagine, the CIA-FBI & Mossad are the sword arms of the Imperial project & not a whimper of protest from the secular-liberals or from the anti-Imperialist Left. Even the Obama Af-Pak surge has been barely opposed even though it deepens the US occupation of the South Asian region. This only goes to prove as to how successful the Imperial strategy has been in creating an atmosphere for US meddling & intervention across South Asia & in neutralising the Left, Bahujans & the Muslim community by systematically promoting Islamophobia by deploying the weapon of terror. But the Indian masses are far smarter & both the issues of the planned assassination of Shaheed Hemant Karakare & the Headley episode, have helped the People arrive at their own independent conclusions despite the disinformation campaigns unleashed by the pro-US/israeli elements within the Indian Government & the Corporate Media. __________________________________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________________________________ Best A. Mani -- A. Mani ASL, CLC,  AMS, CMS http://www.logicamani.co.cc From peter.ksmtf at gmail.com Thu Oct 21 13:53:18 2010 From: peter.ksmtf at gmail.com (T Peter) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 13:53:18 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Move to recommend M S Swaminathan flayed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Move to recommend M S Swaminathan flayed Express News ServiceFirst Published : 21 Oct 2010 THIRUVANANTHAPURAM: Kerala Swatantra Matsya Thozhilali Federation (KSMTF) has condemned the decision of the State Government to recommend the name of agricultural scientist Dr M.S. Swaminathan for Bharat Ratna.KSMTF president T. Peter in a statement here on Wednesday called for a proper and critical appraisal of Dr Swaminathan’s contribution to both agricultural and fisheries sector. ‘’The tragedy of the time is that a man once accused for the great gene robbery by many and for playing a direct role to ruin the traditional rights of the fishing community is being recommended for recognition,’’ said Peter. As an agricultural scientist, Swaminathan might have been known as the father of Green Revolution in India, but it must be remembered that it is this very revolution which has done great harm not only to agriculture in the country but also to fisheries. Among the reasons for thousands of farmers committing suicide in this country, the role of Green Revolution cannot be denied. The agro-chemicals promoted by the Green Revolution has poisoned not just farmlands but also water resources. The foodgrains and vegetables consumed by citizens of this country have been affected by toxic chemicals, the statement said.’ Kuttanad, which is the main area of rice production in Kerala, uses maximum pesticides causing irreversible problems for fisheries, the statement said. Large-scale destruction of fish had taken place in the region. Scientists have identified the role of chemical pesticides as one of the causative factors in this, the statement said. From chintan.backups at gmail.com Thu Oct 21 16:09:42 2010 From: chintan.backups at gmail.com (Chintan Girish Modi) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 16:09:42 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Kabil Sibal moots neighbourhood book policy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From http://www.indiaedunews.net/Today/Kapil_Sibal_moots_neighborhood_book_policy_12769/ Union Minister for Human Resource Development (HRD) Kapil Sibal has mooted that there be a neighborhood book policy in the country. According to Sibal, the aim should be that in the manner of neighborhood schools, there should be neighborhood libraries and reading rooms. He gave this suggestion to the Task Force that has prepared the Draft National Book Promotion Policy while speaking at a Round Table held to discuss the policy, here today. He added that "the model of libraries/reading rooms being followed in Tamil Nadu (pointed out and praised by some members of the round table) could be looked at by the Task Force to be incorporated in their report. He also said that state governments would have to be involved for this." Sibal was speaking at the conclusion of a robust discussion where a number of suggestions were made regarding the draft policy. He asked the Task Force to rework on the draft policy accordingly and also asked the task force to hold meetings with students and parents who are also stakeholders, subsequent to a suggestion in this regard by a participant in the Round Table. The minister also suggested to the Task Force to look at preparing a pricing policy for books, which would be advisory and not mandatory, consistent with international norms, in their report. He also asked the Task Force to take a fresh look at the publishing of school text books and whether greater private sector involvement could be looked at here. He also pointed out to the publishing industry that a huge opportunity awaits them in the publishing of e-books, especially for children's books that can be illustrated. He further added that the vast scope of translations of books in India from one language to the other. Sibal stated that as the Task Force also looks at incorporating the suggestion from a round table member that the publishers make available electronic manuscripts of books to Braille book publishers so that the effort of retyping a book can be avoided. He also asked the Task Force to look at how the electronic media can be asked to participate in the popularization of reading. The minister talked at length about the requirement of creative writing modules and of at least one hour every week being dedicated to reading in schools. Underlining the need of a policy framework to reach out to potential authors, especially in small places, who find it very difficult to find publishers, the minister asked the Task Force that an idea that could be looked at was the setting up of a national level website, connected to the states and to the districts, so that those who seek to author books can reach out to a committee/committees consisting of government and non-government members. This would be a forum to enable a person to access publishers, which is otherwise extremely difficult for an ordinary person. The Task Force could work at the de tails and the sifting mechanism. The Round Table was attended by stakeholders including publishers, authors, academicians and representatives from the Ministries of I&B and Culture, among others. Views expressed by members included greater access to libraries for all, including those in the rural areas and in slums; books in electronic format being made available to libraries and to publishers of Braille books; setting up of creative writing centres; private publishers being allowed greater access to publishing of school textbooks; bringing down the cost of books, the possibility of development funds earmarked for rural areas being used for purchase of books and of the preparation of a policy to encourage writing. From rajkamalgoswami at gmail.com Thu Oct 21 20:37:13 2010 From: rajkamalgoswami at gmail.com (Rajkamal Goswami) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 20:37:13 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Geelani faces shoe protest Message-ID: Dear all, I guess it serves him right! I had pleasure reading it. Such leaders masterminding genocide deserves more rather than just mock protest, Modi inclusive. read on! http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/geelani-faces-shoe-protest-61421 regards, Rajkamal From rohitism at gmail.com Thu Oct 21 22:21:50 2010 From: rohitism at gmail.com (Rohit Shetti) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 22:21:50 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Invitation: 24/Oct:Kisan Swaraj Yatra @ Bangalore In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: *** Please circulate widely *** Dear Friends, *Kisan Swaraj Yatra (www.kisanswaraj.in) *is a nationwide journey across 20 states to campaign and draw fresh attention on the continuing agricultural crisis in India. It is an initiative of Alliance for Sustainable & Holistic Agriculture (ASHA) - a network of several individuals and groups across the country - farmers’ organizations, consumer groups, women’s organizations, environmental organizations, organic farmers’ cooperatives, individual scientists, doctors, health activists and others. The Yatra – a bus journey spanning 75 days commenced on 2nd October, 2010 from Sabarmati, Gujarat and will end on 11th December, 2010* *at Rajghat, New Delhi. Travelling through many villages, towns and cities, the Yatra seeks to highlight the issues affecting our food, our farmers, our soil, water & seeds and our health – and eventually mobilize people from all walks of life to voice their support for Sustainable agricultural policies. *KSY @ Bengaluru * Kisan Swaraj Yatra will reach Bengaluru on 24th October, 2010 and it presents to all of us a great opportunity to welcome the Yatris, interact with them and most importantly show our solidarity. · *10-30 a.m. at Lalbagh**:* * * We will welcome the Yatra at Organic Shandy – a traditional farmers’ market, at MHS Hall, Lalbagh at 10-30 a.m. (Entry from Double road gate). The Shandy will be an opportunity to interact with the Yatris informally and understand their experiences. Further, the Shandy will have on display and for sale, a rich diversity of food grains, pulses, millets, fruits and vegetables brought from all across the state. (Organic Shandy is a joint initiative of Javik Krushik Society and partners, Save Our Rice Campaign, Samvada, Sahaja Organics, Pristine Organics and Simply Organics) · *2-30 p.m. at Institution of Agricultural Technologists (IAT) Hall, Queens Road :* The Yatra will proceed to Institution of Agricultural Technologists Hall, Queens Road (past Indian Express Building) for a public meeting involving the Yatris, farmer groups, experts on agriculture, and common urban citizens. The meeting will be led by Karnataka Rajya Raitha Sangha (KRRS) along with other volunteers and would help us engage deeper into some of the issues and will include · A discussion with experts and eminent personalities on the various aspects of our agricultural policies · Understanding how an urban citizen/consumer can contribute towards sustainable and self-reliant ecological farming · Solidarity and support for Kisan Swaraj Yatra Please be present at both the venues and express your solidarity with the farmers of India. Do circulate the information widely. Our presence in large numbers is crucial for ensuring the success of the Yatra and in turn a victory for our farmers in particular and the entire society at large. Thanks and best regards, Rohit From pheeta.ram at gmail.com Fri Oct 22 02:19:08 2010 From: pheeta.ram at gmail.com (Pheeta Ram) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 02:19:08 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Geelani faces shoe protest In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A confused post, i should say. On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 8:37 PM, Rajkamal Goswami wrote: > Dear all, > > I guess it serves him right! I had pleasure reading it. Such leaders > masterminding genocide deserves more rather than just mock protest, > Modi inclusive. > read on! > > > http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/geelani-faces-shoe-protest-61421 > > regards, > Rajkamal > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rajkamalgoswami at gmail.com Fri Oct 22 03:10:44 2010 From: rajkamalgoswami at gmail.com (Rajkamal Goswami) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 03:10:44 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Geelani faces shoe protest In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: whats so confusing abt it? On 10/22/10, Pheeta Ram wrote: > A confused post, i should say. > > On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 8:37 PM, Rajkamal Goswami > wrote: > >> Dear all, >> >> I guess it serves him right! I had pleasure reading it. Such leaders >> masterminding genocide deserves more rather than just mock protest, >> Modi inclusive. >> read on! >> >> >> http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/geelani-faces-shoe-protest-61421 >> >> regards, >> Rajkamal >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- Rajkamal From shuddha at sarai.net Fri Oct 22 03:51:50 2010 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 03:51:50 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?Azadi=3A_The_Only_Way_=96_Report_f?= =?windows-1252?q?rom_a_Turbulent_Few_Hours_in_Delhi?= Message-ID: (Apologies for Cross Posting on Kafila.org) Dear Friends, I was present and speaking a few hours ago at a meeting titled ‘Azadi: The Only Way’ on the situation in Jammu and Kashmir, organized by the Committee for the Release of Political Prisoners at the Little Theatre Group in Delhi yesterday (21st October). I was not present from the beginning of the meeting as I was traveling from another city, but can vouch for what occurred from around 4:30 pm till the time that the meeting wound up, well after 8:00 pm in the evening. The meeting took place in the packed to capacity auditorium of the Little Theatre Group on Copernicus Marg at the heart of New Delhi. Several speakers, including the poet Varavara Rao, Prof. Mihir Bhattacharya, Sugata Bhadra, Gursharan Singh, G.N.Saibaba, Professor Sheikh Showkat Hussain of Srinagar University, the journalist Najeeb Mubaraki, a repesentative of the Naga Peoples Movement for Human Rights and Justice, the writer Arundhati Roy and myself spoke at the meeting. (I may be missing out some names, for which I apologize, but I was not present for a part of the meeting, at the very beginning) The climax of the meeting was a very substantive and significant speech by Syed Ali Shah Geelani of the Hurriyat Conference (G), which spelt out the vision of liberation (Azaadi) and Justice that Syed Ali Shah Geelani held out before the assembled public, of which I will write in detail later in this text. The artist known as ‘Inder Salim’ originally from Kashmir, currently living in Delhi, made an intervention by inviting the assembled people to take (with him) the stance of a masked stone pelter for a brief, silent moment. Students from the Jawaharlal Nehru University sang a song, ‘Tu Zinda Hai to Zindagi Ki Jeet Mein Yakeen Kar’ invoking the delights of life and liberation. In conclusion, the meeting adopted a resolution, which was read, on behalf of the Committee for the Release of Political Prisoners, by Mihir Bhattacharya. The atmosphere, for the several hours that I was present, was absolutely electric. The vast majority of the audience was warm and appreciative of all the speakers. They were patient and respectful – and despite grave provocation from a section that identified themselves as ‘Indian patriots’ and partisans of the ‘Kashmir as indivisible part of India’ position - that repeatedly tried to interrupt the meeting and heckle speakers, and on one occasion even tried to throw an object at the dias – did not stoop to be provoked by these pathetic attempts at disruption of a peaceful gathering. No provocative, secterian or hateful slogans were raised by the majority of the people present. The only provocative posturing that I witnessed was undertaken by the self-declared Indian patriots, who were not stopped from having their say, but were requested simply not to disrupt the proceedings. When their behaviour crossed the limits of public decency, they were escorted out of the premises by representatives of the Delhi Police. The Delhi Police, to their credit, did not act against the majority of the audience, simply because the majority of the audience conducted themselves in a completely civil and democratic manner. There was no attempt made at intimidation of any kind. Professor SAR Geelani, who was conducting the proceedings on behalf of the organizers – Committee for the Release of Political Prisoners (CRPP) , repeatedly asked the people obstructing the speakers to conduct themselves in a cultured and dignified manner. His pleas were disregarded by the section of the crowd that let its ‘Indian patriotism’ get the better of its civilisation. When things got a little too hot on occasion, the majority of the audience present simply drowned the rude remarks and indignant posturing of the small minority of self styled Indian patriots and champions of the ‘Kashmir as indivisible part of India’ position – in wave after wave of cheerful but firm hand clapping. While there as enthusiastic cheering and sloganeering from the majority of the young men and women assembled at the gathering, there was no attempt while I was present to give the slogans a religious or secterian colour. When Syed Ali Shah Geelani said that the people of India and Kashmir are tied together by the bonds of insaaniyat (humanity), when he quoted Gandhi, or spoke of the necessity of conducting a non-violent struggle that was devoid of hatred, or even when he said that he wished to see India rise as a great power in the world, but as a power that felt no need to oppress others, he was wholeheartedly and sincerely applauded, by the majority of people present in the auditorium, regardless of whether or not they were Kashmiri. Yesterday’s meeting needs to be seen in the context of a momentum of different events, which have included public meetings at Jantar Mantar, meetings in the Jawaharlal Nehru Universtiy and Delhi University, film screenings and talks, independently organized exhibitions on the history of Jammu and Kashmir in educational institutions, photographic exhibitions on the situation in Kashmir today that have taken place recently at the India Habitat Centre, while Kashmir has reeled under the brutality of the occupation that has resulted in a hundred and eleven deaths of unarmed or stone pelting people, including children and teenagers. The momentum of this process, which recognizes the urgency of the situation in Kashmir, needs to be taken to its logical conclusion, until the world and the international community sits up and takes notice of the true nature of the hold of the Indian state on Kashmir and its people.We need many more such meetings and gatherings in Delhi, and indeed in every large city in India. It must be maintained so that even a Barack Hussein Obama, scheduled to visit New Delhi in November, is compelled to recognize the fact that the conduct of the Indian state in Kashmir, based as it is on brutal violence and intimidation, based as it is on a disregard of every norm of the conduct of civilized governance is unacceptable to the world. You simply cannot claim to be the world’s largest democracy and preside over the deaths of 70,000 people in twenty years. You cannot claim to be judged as a democracy and have laws like the Armed Forces Special Powers Act. You cannot claim to be a democracy and have your police and paramilitaries beat children to death openly on the streets, or rape and kill young women with impunity. A state that does so is an oppressive, immoral, occupying power, and needs to be resisted by every right thinking person in the world. The Indian state’s record in Kashmir over the past several decades is not only an oppression visited on the people of Kashmir, it is an insult to the United Nations, to the world community, and to every principle of justice, fairness and democracy. It is an insult to all the peace loving and freedom loving citizens of India that do not wish to see oppression carried out in their name. This is the message that needs to go out, and is going out, not only from the streets of Sringar, Baramulla and Kupwara, but also from gatherings, such as yesterdays, from the heart of Delhi, the capital of India. We, who are the friends of liberty and justice in India, need to stand besides our Kashmiri brothers and sisters and say to the world that we do not accept the lies put out by the Indian state and its apologists on Kashmir. That is the true significance and import of the process in which yesterday’s meeting plays an important part. This process will not stop until the world takes notice. The United Nations, and the broad democratic currents as well as the political leaderships of Europe, the Americas, and of every significant power in the world needs to know that hundreds of people, young and old, intellectuals, writers, activists, lawyers, teachers and others, Indians and Kashmiris can stand united, in Delhi, at the heart of the Indian Republic’s capital, in refusing to accept the continued occupation of Jammu and Kashmir, by India and by Pakistan. That they believe that it is only the people of Jammu and Kashmir who must decide for themselves their own future destiny, peacefully, in a climate free of coercion and intimidation. As Syed Ali Shah Geelani and Sheikh Showkat Hussain said, all that they are asking for is the right to self determination, promised by India, before the Untied Nations, to be freely enacted through a plebiscite, in conditions of peace and liberty, without the presence of armed force, for the inhabitants of every part of the undivided state of Jammu and Kashmir – regardless of whether the results of that plebiscite are in favour of India, Pakistan or an independent, united, Jammu and Kashmir that can live in peace with all its neighbours in South Asia. There was a great diversity of statements and styles present in abundant splendour at yesterday’s meeting. There was no way by which the meeting could be reduced or simplified a single monotonous statement. Yes, all the panelists, spoke unambiguously about the necessity for ending the military occupation by the Indian state in Kashmir. This does not mean that their statements and sentiments were a manufactured and processed uniformity. The people on the panel may have significant political and philosophical differences amongst themselves, they may even think differently about what ‘Azaadi’ might mean, but this was a sign, not of the weakness, but of the strength and vitality of yesterday’s gathering. ‘Azaadi’ if and when it comes, will not be the parting gift of an exhausted colonial power, it will be the harvest of the fruits of the imaginations and intelligences of millions of people, of their debates and their conversations. What was extremely heart warming was the fact that each speaker spoke of the fact that the voices of the people of Kashmir are no longer alone and isolated, that there is a chorus of voices in different parts of South Asia that echo and endorese their desire for liberation from a brutal militarized occupation. From my notes of the time that I was there, I recall that the writer Arundhati Roy, while endorsing the demand of Azaadi for Kashmir, reminded the audience of the need for the people of Kashmir not to be selective about justice and injustice, that they must find methods to forge webs of solidarity with all the suffering and oppressed peoples of India. She was heckled and rudely interrupted by a small group of Indian nationalists in the audience, who repeatedly raised the situation of Kashmiri Pandits, Arundhati Roy, when she was able to resume speaking, spoke unambiguously about the fact that she considered the situation of Kashmiri Pandits to be a tragedy. She was echoed in this sentiment later by Syed Ali Shah Geelani who said that he personally stands guarantee for the safety and security of all minorities, Hindu, Sikh, Buddhists, Christians and others in a future free Kashmir. He implored the Pandits to return to Kashmir, and said, that they are an integral part of Kashmiri society. He spoke of the need for ensuring that a free Kashmir was a just Kashmir, and that justice meant that the freedom, safety and security of all minorities, of their property, their places of worship, their freedom of conscience be given the utmost importance. He reminded the assembled people that throughout these turbulent months, the people of Kashmir have continued to be hospitable to Hindu pilgrims, have set up ‘Langars’ (Kitchens) for them, and have cared for them when they have fallen sick, despite being at the receiving end of the violence of the Indian state. I spoke briefly, about the fact that I was proud that so many of us had gathered in my city, Delhi, putting aside the abstraction of our politically determined, state given construct of citizenship, and standing, here, now, on the grounds of a concrete human solidarity with the people of Kashmir. I spoke of the fact that there are significant voices, even in the mainstream media who have been compelled to recognize the urgency of the situation in Kashmir, by the sheer determination of the youth of Kashmir to get the news of what is happening in Kashmir out to the world. I spoke of the role played by facebook sites like ‘Aalaw’ and blogs, and the fact that the people of India and the world can no longer be kept in the dark by a pliant media, as happened in 1989-90. I spoke of the ways in which the viral circulation of leaked videos of the humiliation of Kashmiri youth on facebook pages and online fora have successfully shown us what the reality of Kashmir is today. I urged media professionals in the mainstream media to introspect and reflect on the role that they may be compelled, against their own professional ehtics, to play in the pyschological and propaganda war that the Indian state is currently conducting. I spoke of my sense of shame and remorse at the evasive and dissimulating role played by sections of the mainstream media in India while reporting (or not reporting) atrocities that make even the images from Abu Gharaib pale in comparison. I am ashamed to say, that despite my respectful plea to the media to play a responsible role in their reportage of Kashmir related matters, major channels like Times Now and NDTV once again let the truth down in their reports on the days events. NDTV saw it fit to simply report an incident of ‘shoe throwing at SAS Geelani’. A shoe (or some other indeterminate object) was indeed thrown, but not at Geelani. It landed on a bottle of water in front of another speaker, while he was speaking. So let’s at least set that record straight. Arnab Goswami of Times Now, while conducting what he likes to call a ‘debate; on the programme called ‘News Hour’ (neither News, nor just an Hour) repeatedly uttered hysterical untruths, such as the presumption that ‘No State permits the advocacy of secession and self determination’ and that a meeting such as the one I participated in yesterday, were it to take place, say, in the United States, would immediately lead to all speakers present (including, presumably, myself) in being imprisoned on charges of sedition. I have to inform my readers here, that on both counts, Arnab Goswami is wrong. Seriously wrong. Either he is a misinformed idiot. Or he knows that he is wrong, and is lying to his public through his teeth. We can choose to be generous about how he would interpret his motives, and assume he is simply a fool. Goswami, consequently demanded to know why we were not immediately imprisoned under section 124 of the Indian penal code. Arnab Goswami needs to be reminded, that in United States law, the provisions of the Sedition Act are applicable only in times when the country is in a declared state of war. And therefore his analogy does not apply, as I am not aware that the Indian republic is currently in a declared state of war, as per international law, (unless Arnab Goswami has lost his marbles to the extent that he confuses the shadow boxing that he does on television with a war declared by a state under international law). That, furthermore, the provisions of the US Sedition Law have been declared substantially void by the US Supreme Court ruling in the Brandenberg vs. Ohio (1969) judgement, and of course, by the US Supreme court guaranteeing the primacy of free speech, including ‘seditious’ speech, including the burning of the United States flag, under the provisions of the first amendment to the US constitution. There have been repeated attempts made to pass a law that would make ‘flag burning’ an offence under US Law. Fortunately, (for liberty and free speech) as of now, these attempts have not come to pass, and currently, under US Law it is perfectly legal to advocate self- determination and secwssion, if done peacefully, even to the extent of burning or destroying or descerating symbols of state authority like the national flag. Furthermore several constiutions, such as the constitutions of Canada, Ethipopia, Austria and France, implicitly or explicitly, provide for a legal expression of right to self determination, provided it is exercised in a peaceful and democratic manner, as part of the freedom of expression principle. But the point that needs to be made is larger than whether or not Arnab Goswami is a fool and a charlatan. Yesterday’s meeting was a historic opportunity for his channel, and indeed for all of the Indian mainstream media, to report and take cognizance of the fact that there is a significant section of Indian public opinion that is actually in favour of ‘Azaadi’ in Kashmir. I am not suggesting that this section constitutes an overwhelming majority at present (that might change) but, that it does exist, and that it presents, cogent, precise arguments, that cannot be dismissed, (as is being done by Times Now and its ilk) by invoking the spectre of ‘terrorism’. There is hardly any ‘terrorism’ in Kashmir today (if we don’t count the Indian state and its terror) . The 111 people who have died in the past months, have not died at the hands of non-state insurgents, they have died, unarmed, facing the bullets of the Indian state. The movement for Azaadi in Kashmir has left the culture of the gun and the grenade behind. It fights today without weapons, armed only with courage. If there is a terrorist in Kashmir today, he wears the uniform of the forces of the Indian state, and carries the weapons supplied by the arsenal of the Indian state. To discount the voices that rise in dissent against this reality as ‘terrorist sympathizers’ as Arnab Goswami has done on his channel is to insult reality. Syed Ali Shah Geelani spoke of the bonds of insaaniyat that tie the peoples of Kashmir and India yesterday. I heard him say this. I was barely five feet away from him. I heard him speak of his regard and respect for the minorities in Jammu and Kashmir. I do not agree with much of what Geelani Saheb represents politically, or ideologically, but I have no hesitation in saying that what he said yesterday, was surprising for its gentleness, for its consideration, for its moderation, even for its liberality and open heartedness. This should have been big news. That Syed Ali Shah Geelani said that he wants to see a strong and resurgent India. I heard him say this. And was this reported by anyone? NO. Was it reported that he was cheered when he said this ? NO. Was it reported that no one had any thing angry to say against the struggling peoples of India? NO. Was it reported that SAS Geelani expilicity said that he is NOT against dialogue, provided that the five point formula put forward by him (none of whose provisions – 1. acceptance of the disputed nature of the territory of Jammu and Kashmir, 2. repeal of AFSPA and other black laws, 3. release of political detenues and prisoners, 4. withdrawal of the disproportionate presence of the armed forces and 5. punishment to those gulty of taking life in the past few months – require the government of India to think ‘outside’ the framework of the Indian Constitution) are accepted as the basis of the dialogue? NO. Don’t you think that it makes BIG news that the tallest separatist leader in Jammu and Kashmir actually, in a moderate voice, spells out, in Delhi, the fundamental basis of a considered dialogue with the Indian state, while offering it a chance to do so on bases that are absolutely reasonable and sound, and honourable to all concerned? Do you not think that a responsible media organization would consider this a scoop, a major news stor? But that is not what happened. Instead, Times Now, (and I am waiting for the morning newspapers to see how far this muck has spread) chose to focus on the deliberately staged disruption of a handful of agent provocateurs, our familiar posse of self styled patriotic champions of the continued occupation of Kashmir, who posed for the camera, hyperventilated, and occupied, perhaps no more than five percent of the attention of several patient hours. If you saw the news reports on Times Now’s ‘NEWSHOUR’ programme, you would have thought that all of what happened was their presence as a ‘protest’ against the meeting. As someone who was present through much of this, I am totally, utterly aghast that a lie of such magnificient proportions could be dished out with such ease. I am aghast that Aditya Raj Kaul who was one of the panel invited by Arnab Goswami to the Times Now Newshour show could lie with a straight face by saying that there was no attempt made to ‘disrupt’ the meeting by those who were there to represent his point of view. Someday, I hope that all of these people, the Arnab Goswamis of the world, find reason to repent for continuing to keep the people of India and Kashmir in the dark. They had better think hard, because the day when they will have cause to repent, is not far. Azaadi will come to Kashmir, and with it, a glimmer of Azaadi will be the share of those people in India who stood by their Kashmiri friends, in their darkest hour.Going by what I witnessed yesterday, there will be many such people, so Arnab Goswami and his ilk had better start practicing how to say sorry, several hundred times a day. best, Shuddha --------------------------------------------- Shuddhabrata Sengupta From pheeta.ram at gmail.com Fri Oct 22 04:17:54 2010 From: pheeta.ram at gmail.com (Pheeta Ram) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 04:17:54 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Geelani faces shoe protest In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I beg your pardon Goswamiji. Confusion's all mine. You just relish your pleasure. Pheeta On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 3:10 AM, Rajkamal Goswami wrote: > whats so confusing abt it? > > On 10/22/10, Pheeta Ram wrote: > > A confused post, i should say. > > > > On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 8:37 PM, Rajkamal Goswami < > rajkamalgoswami at gmail.com > >> wrote: > > > >> Dear all, > >> > >> I guess it serves him right! I had pleasure reading it. Such leaders > >> masterminding genocide deserves more rather than just mock protest, > >> Modi inclusive. > >> read on! > >> > >> > >> http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/geelani-faces-shoe-protest-61421 > >> > >> regards, > >> Rajkamal > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > -- > Rajkamal > From taraprakash at gmail.com Fri Oct 22 09:00:51 2010 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 23:30:51 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?q?Azadi=3A_The_Only_Way_=E2=80=93_Report_fr?= =?utf-8?q?om_a_Turbulent_Few_Hours_in_Delhi?= References: Message-ID: <8BBC467E269D4AAB90D6E0039F13F241@tara> "No provocative, secterian or hateful slogans were raised by the majority of the people present." It is a cleverly written sentence that you can't really deny. It is time for SASG to make right kind of noises. But since there is no denying that struggle in Kashmir is primarily Jihadi, there always are in the entourage who will raise slogans, that may not sound provocative, sectarian or offensive to the self styled spokes person for the self styled tallest leader of Kashmir, but to me they are. I heardthe coverage of this event on BBC. No need for excitement, it was BBC Hindi that covers local news from India. Whoever threw that shoe, or whatever object, on SASG or on whoever, did the biggest service to the event. Conspiracy theorists will claim it was done by one of "the majority" The event wouldn't get so much coverage as it did if that incident did not happen. Coming back to the coverage on BBC, which is not Times Now or NDTV, it said slogans were raised in favor of "Islamic Republic of Kashmir" To a secular mind the conception of "free" Kashmir as Islamic Republic should be as offensive as India's conception as Hindu Rashtra. The correspondent on BBC said usual slogans associated with Kashmiri freedom movement were raised. My understanding is that he meant the secular slogan of Allah ho Akbar and the slogan denoting freedom "Kashmir banega Pakistan." But I understand the majority did not raise those ones. The majority in Kashmir doesn't raise them either. Before the Indian government used very effective jammers, I could listen to Sada-e-Hurriyat, a radio station operated from some undisclosed location, and available on shortwave band. It used to be crude, out of tune songs and full of filthy language against "Hindu dogs". I used to enjoy sheer indecency that was not readily available at that time on Radio. Alla hoooo used to be usual refrain of the songs. The one I liked the most had a line that translated as: "we will cut the head of the worshipper of monkey." We are being told that Kashmir "freeKashmir" will be truely free, even for those with different faith. But they don't seem to agree. Duplicity of Hurriyat can be ignored only by SASG's entourage. Talking about terrorism in Kashmir, we were told in the below mail that there is no terrorism in Kashmir except ..." Looks like Jaish-e-Mohammed admited today from Pakistan that 2 of their operatives were "martyred" by Indian army. I don't think they were trying to spread the message of peace and harmony with Indians. Moreover, one who says common Kashmiris are not terrorized by stone pelters and ultra nationalistic zealots is telling a plane lie. Keep the heat on, spread the message far and wide. Keep dreaming, but if you are banking on Obama, "free" Kashmir will never be in the US's interest . So they will never support it, making right kind of noise is a different issue. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" To: "sarai list" Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 6:21 PM Subject: [Reader-list] Azadi: The Only Way – Report from a Turbulent Few Hours in Delhi > (Apologies for Cross Posting on Kafila.org) > > Dear Friends, > > I was present and speaking a few hours ago at a meeting titled ‘Azadi: > The Only Way’ on the situation in Jammu and Kashmir, organized by the > Committee for the Release of Political Prisoners at the Little Theatre > Group in Delhi yesterday (21st October). I was not present from the > beginning of the meeting as I was traveling from another city, but can > vouch for what occurred from around 4:30 pm till the time that the > meeting wound up, well after 8:00 pm in the evening. > > The meeting took place in the packed to capacity auditorium of the Little > Theatre Group on Copernicus Marg at the heart of New Delhi. Several > speakers, including the poet Varavara Rao, Prof. Mihir Bhattacharya, > Sugata Bhadra, Gursharan Singh, G.N.Saibaba, Professor Sheikh Showkat > Hussain of Srinagar University, the journalist Najeeb Mubaraki, a > repesentative of the Naga Peoples Movement for Human Rights and Justice, > the writer Arundhati Roy and myself spoke at the meeting. (I may be > missing out some names, for which I apologize, but I was not present for > a part of the meeting, at the very beginning) The climax of the meeting > was a very substantive and significant speech by Syed Ali Shah Geelani of > the Hurriyat Conference (G), which spelt out the vision of liberation > (Azaadi) and Justice that Syed Ali Shah Geelani held out before the > assembled public, of which I will write in detail later in this text. > > The artist known as ‘Inder Salim’ originally from Kashmir, currently > living in Delhi, made an intervention by inviting the assembled people to > take (with him) the stance of a masked stone pelter for a brief, silent > moment. Students from the Jawaharlal Nehru University sang a song, ‘Tu > Zinda Hai to Zindagi Ki Jeet Mein Yakeen Kar’ invoking the delights of > life and liberation. In conclusion, the meeting adopted a resolution, > which was read, on behalf of the Committee for the Release of Political > Prisoners, by Mihir Bhattacharya. > > The atmosphere, for the several hours that I was present, was absolutely > electric. The vast majority of the audience was warm and appreciative of > all the speakers. They were patient and respectful – and despite grave > provocation from a section that identified themselves as ‘Indian patriots’ > and partisans of the ‘Kashmir as indivisible part of India’ position - > that repeatedly tried to interrupt the meeting and heckle speakers, and > on one occasion even tried to throw an object at the dias – did not stoop > to be provoked by these pathetic attempts at disruption of a peaceful > gathering. > > No provocative, secterian or hateful slogans were raised by the majority > of the people present. The only provocative posturing that I witnessed > was undertaken by the self-declared Indian patriots, who were not stopped > from having their say, but were requested simply not to disrupt the > proceedings. > > When their behaviour crossed the limits of public decency, they were > escorted out of the premises by representatives of the Delhi Police. The > Delhi Police, to their credit, did not act against the majority of the > audience, simply because the majority of the audience conducted > themselves in a completely civil and democratic manner. > > There was no attempt made at intimidation of any kind. Professor SAR > Geelani, who was conducting the proceedings on behalf of the organizers – > Committee for the Release of Political Prisoners (CRPP) , repeatedly > asked the people obstructing the speakers to conduct themselves in a > cultured and dignified manner. His pleas were disregarded by the section > of the crowd that let its ‘Indian patriotism’ get the better of its > civilisation. When things got a little too hot on occasion, the majority > of the audience present simply drowned the rude remarks and indignant > posturing of the small minority of self styled Indian patriots and > champions of the ‘Kashmir as indivisible part of India’ position – in > wave after wave of cheerful but firm hand clapping. > > While there as enthusiastic cheering and sloganeering from the majority > of the young men and women assembled at the gathering, there was no > attempt while I was present to give the slogans a religious or secterian > colour. When Syed Ali Shah Geelani said that the people of India and > Kashmir are tied together by the bonds of insaaniyat (humanity), when he > quoted Gandhi, or spoke of the necessity of conducting a non-violent > struggle that was devoid of hatred, or even when he said that he wished > to see India rise as a great power in the world, but as a power that felt > no need to oppress others, he was wholeheartedly and sincerely applauded, > by the majority of people present in the auditorium, regardless of > whether or not they were Kashmiri. > > Yesterday’s meeting needs to be seen in the context of a momentum of > different events, which have included public meetings at Jantar Mantar, > meetings in the Jawaharlal Nehru Universtiy and Delhi University, film > screenings and talks, independently organized exhibitions on the history > of Jammu and Kashmir in educational institutions, photographic > exhibitions on the situation in Kashmir today that have taken place > recently at the India Habitat Centre, while Kashmir has reeled under the > brutality of the occupation that has resulted in a hundred and eleven > deaths of unarmed or stone pelting people, including children and > teenagers. The momentum of this process, which recognizes the urgency of > the situation in Kashmir, needs to be taken to its logical conclusion, > until the world and the international community sits up and takes notice > of the true nature of the hold of the Indian state on Kashmir and its > people.We need many more such meetings and gatherings in Delhi, and > indeed in every large city in India. > > It must be maintained so that even a Barack Hussein Obama, scheduled to > visit New Delhi in November, is compelled to recognize the fact that the > conduct of the Indian state in Kashmir, based as it is on brutal violence > and intimidation, based as it is on a disregard of every norm of the > conduct of civilized governance is unacceptable to the world. You simply > cannot claim to be the world’s largest democracy and preside over the > deaths of 70,000 people in twenty years. You cannot claim to be judged as > a democracy and have laws like the Armed Forces Special Powers Act. You > cannot claim to be a democracy and have your police and paramilitaries > beat children to death openly on the streets, or rape and kill young > women with impunity. A state that does so is an oppressive, immoral, > occupying power, and needs to be resisted by every right thinking person > in the world. The Indian state’s record in Kashmir over the past several > decades is not only an oppression visited on the people of Kashmir, it is > an insult to the United Nations, to the world community, and to every > principle of justice, fairness and democracy. It is an insult to all the > peace loving and freedom loving citizens of India that do not wish to see > oppression carried out in their name. > > This is the message that needs to go out, and is going out, not only from > the streets of Sringar, Baramulla and Kupwara, but also from gatherings, > such as yesterdays, from the heart of Delhi, the capital of India. We, > who are the friends of liberty and justice in India, need to stand > besides our Kashmiri brothers and sisters and say to the world that we do > not accept the lies put out by the Indian state and its apologists on > Kashmir. That is the true significance and import of the process in which > yesterday’s meeting plays an important part. This process will not stop > until the world takes notice. The United Nations, and the broad > democratic currents as well as the political leaderships of Europe, the > Americas, and of every significant power in the world needs to know that > hundreds of people, young and old, intellectuals, writers, activists, > lawyers, teachers and others, Indians and Kashmiris can stand united, in > Delhi, at the heart of the Indian Republic’s capital, in refusing to > accept the continued occupation of Jammu and Kashmir, by India and by > Pakistan. That they believe that it is only the people of Jammu and > Kashmir who must decide for themselves their own future destiny, > peacefully, in a climate free of coercion and intimidation. > > As Syed Ali Shah Geelani and Sheikh Showkat Hussain said, all that they > are asking for is the right to self determination, promised by India, > before the Untied Nations, to be freely enacted through a plebiscite, in > conditions of peace and liberty, without the presence of armed force, for > the inhabitants of every part of the undivided state of Jammu and > Kashmir – regardless of whether the results of that plebiscite are in > favour of India, Pakistan or an independent, united, Jammu and Kashmir > that can live in peace with all its neighbours in South Asia. > > There was a great diversity of statements and styles present in abundant > splendour at yesterday’s meeting. There was no way by which the meeting > could be reduced or simplified a single monotonous statement. Yes, all > the panelists, spoke unambiguously about the necessity for ending the > military occupation by the Indian state in Kashmir. This does not mean > that their statements and sentiments were a manufactured and processed > uniformity. The people on the panel may have significant political and > philosophical differences amongst themselves, they may even think > differently about what ‘Azaadi’ might mean, but this was a sign, not of > the weakness, but of the strength and vitality of yesterday’s gathering. > > ‘Azaadi’ if and when it comes, will not be the parting gift of an > exhausted colonial power, it will be the harvest of the fruits of the > imaginations and intelligences of millions of people, of their debates > and their conversations. > > What was extremely heart warming was the fact that each speaker spoke of > the fact that the voices of the people of Kashmir are no longer alone and > isolated, that there is a chorus of voices in different parts of South > Asia that echo and endorese their desire for liberation from a brutal > militarized occupation. From my notes of the time that I was there, I > recall that the writer Arundhati Roy, while endorsing the demand of > Azaadi for Kashmir, reminded the audience of the need for the people of > Kashmir not to be selective about justice and injustice, that they must > find methods to forge webs of solidarity with all the suffering and > oppressed peoples of India. She was heckled and rudely interrupted by a > small group of Indian nationalists in the audience, who repeatedly raised > the situation of Kashmiri Pandits, Arundhati Roy, when she was able to > resume speaking, spoke unambiguously about the fact that she considered > the situation of Kashmiri Pandits to be a tragedy. She was echoed in this > sentiment later by Syed Ali Shah Geelani who said that he personally > stands guarantee for the safety and security of all minorities, Hindu, > Sikh, Buddhists, Christians and others in a future free Kashmir. He > implored the Pandits to return to Kashmir, and said, that they are an > integral part of Kashmiri society. He spoke of the need for ensuring that > a free Kashmir was a just Kashmir, and that justice meant that the > freedom, safety and security of all minorities, of their property, their > places of worship, their freedom of conscience be given the utmost > importance. He reminded the assembled people that throughout these > turbulent months, the people of Kashmir have continued to be hospitable > to Hindu pilgrims, have set up ‘Langars’ (Kitchens) for them, and have > cared for them when they have fallen sick, despite being at the receiving > end of the violence of the Indian state. > > I spoke briefly, about the fact that I was proud that so many of us had > gathered in my city, Delhi, putting aside the abstraction of our > politically determined, state given construct of citizenship, and > standing, here, now, on the grounds of a concrete human solidarity with > the people of Kashmir. I spoke of the fact that there are significant > voices, even in the mainstream media who have been compelled to recognize > the urgency of the situation in Kashmir, by the sheer determination of > the youth of Kashmir to get the news of what is happening in Kashmir out > to the world. I spoke of the role played by facebook sites like ‘Aalaw’ > and blogs, and the fact that the people of India and the world can no > longer be kept in the dark by a pliant media, as happened in 1989-90. I > spoke of the ways in which the viral circulation of leaked videos of the > humiliation of Kashmiri youth on facebook pages and online fora have > successfully shown us what the reality of Kashmir is today. I urged media > professionals in the mainstream media to introspect and reflect on the > role that they may be compelled, against their own professional ehtics, > to play in the pyschological and propaganda war that the Indian state is > currently conducting. I spoke of my sense of shame and remorse at the > evasive and dissimulating role played by sections of the mainstream media > in India while reporting (or not reporting) atrocities that make even the > images from Abu Gharaib pale in comparison. > > I am ashamed to say, that despite my respectful plea to the media to play > a responsible role in their reportage of Kashmir related matters, major > channels like Times Now and NDTV once again let the truth down in their > reports on the days events. NDTV saw it fit to simply report > > an incident of ‘shoe throwing at SAS Geelani’. A shoe (or some other > indeterminate object) was indeed thrown, but not at Geelani. It landed on > a bottle of water in front of another speaker, while he was speaking. So > let’s at least set that record straight. Arnab Goswami of Times Now, > while conducting what he likes to call a ‘debate; on the programme called > ‘News Hour’ (neither News, nor just an Hour) repeatedly uttered > hysterical untruths, such as the presumption that ‘No State permits the > advocacy of secession and self determination’ and that a meeting such as > the one I participated in yesterday, were it to take place, say, in the > United States, would immediately lead to all speakers present (including, > presumably, myself) in being imprisoned on charges of sedition. I have to > inform my readers here, that on both counts, Arnab Goswami is wrong. > Seriously wrong. Either he is a misinformed idiot. Or he knows that he is > wrong, and is lying to his public through his teeth. We can choose to be > generous about how he would interpret his motives, and assume he is > simply a fool. > > Goswami, consequently demanded to know why we were not immediately > imprisoned under section 124 of the Indian penal code. Arnab Goswami > needs to be reminded, that in United States law, the provisions of the > Sedition Act are applicable only in times when the country is in a > declared state of war. And therefore his analogy does not apply, as I am > not aware that the Indian republic is currently in a declared state of > war, as per international law, (unless Arnab Goswami has lost his marbles > to the extent that he confuses the shadow boxing that he does on > television with a war declared by a state under international law). That, > furthermore, the provisions of the US Sedition Law have been declared > substantially void by the US Supreme Court ruling in the Brandenberg vs. > Ohio (1969) judgement, and of course, by the US Supreme court > guaranteeing the primacy of free speech, including ‘seditious’ speech, > including the burning of the United States flag, under the provisions of > the first amendment to the US constitution. > > There have been repeated attempts made to pass a law that would make > ‘flag burning’ an offence under US Law. Fortunately, (for liberty and > free speech) as of now, these attempts have not come to pass, and > currently, under US Law it is perfectly legal to advocate self- > determination and secwssion, if done peacefully, even to the extent of > burning or destroying or descerating symbols of state authority like the > national flag. Furthermore several constiutions, such as the > constitutions of Canada, Ethipopia, Austria and France, implicitly or > explicitly, provide for a legal expression of right to self > determination, provided it is exercised in a peaceful and democratic > manner, as part of the freedom of expression principle. > > But the point that needs to be made is larger than whether or not Arnab > Goswami is a fool and a charlatan. Yesterday’s meeting was a historic > opportunity for his channel, and indeed for all of the Indian mainstream > media, to report and take cognizance of the fact that there is a > significant section of Indian public opinion that is actually in favour > of ‘Azaadi’ in Kashmir. I am not suggesting that this section constitutes > an overwhelming majority at present (that might change) but, that it does > exist, and that it presents, cogent, precise arguments, that cannot be > dismissed, (as is being done by Times Now and its ilk) by invoking the > spectre of ‘terrorism’. There is hardly any ‘terrorism’ in Kashmir today > (if we don’t count the Indian state and its terror) . The 111 people who > have died in the past months, have not died at the hands of non-state > insurgents, they have died, unarmed, facing the bullets of the Indian > state. The movement for Azaadi in Kashmir has left the culture of the gun > and the grenade behind. It fights today without weapons, armed only with > courage. If there is a terrorist in Kashmir today, he wears the uniform > of the forces of the Indian state, and carries the weapons supplied by > the arsenal of the Indian state. To discount the voices that rise in > dissent against this reality as ‘terrorist sympathizers’ as Arnab Goswami > has done on his channel is to insult reality. > > Syed Ali Shah Geelani spoke of the bonds of insaaniyat that tie the > peoples of Kashmir and India yesterday. I heard him say this. I was > barely five feet away from him. I heard him speak of his regard and > respect for the minorities in Jammu and Kashmir. I do not agree with much > of what Geelani Saheb represents politically, or ideologically, but I > have no hesitation in saying that what he said yesterday, was surprising > for its gentleness, for its consideration, for its moderation, even for > its liberality and open heartedness. This should have been big news. That > Syed Ali Shah Geelani said that he wants to see a strong and resurgent > India. I heard him say this. And was this reported by anyone? NO. Was it > reported that he was cheered when he said this ? NO. Was it reported that > no one had any thing angry to say against the struggling peoples of > India? NO. Was it reported that SAS Geelani expilicity said that he is > NOT against dialogue, provided that the five point formula put forward by > him (none of whose provisions – 1. acceptance of the disputed nature of > the territory of Jammu and Kashmir, 2. repeal of AFSPA and other black > laws, 3. release of political detenues and prisoners, 4. withdrawal of > the disproportionate presence of the armed forces and 5. punishment to > those gulty of taking life in the past few months – require the > government of India to think ‘outside’ the framework of the Indian > Constitution) are accepted as the basis of the dialogue? NO. > > Don’t you think that it makes BIG news that the tallest separatist leader > in Jammu and Kashmir actually, in a moderate voice, spells out, in Delhi, > the fundamental basis of a considered dialogue with the Indian state, > while offering it a chance to do so on bases that are absolutely > reasonable and sound, and honourable to all concerned? Do you not think > that a responsible media organization would consider this a scoop, a > major news stor? But that is not what happened. > > Instead, Times Now, (and I am waiting for the morning newspapers to see > how far this muck has spread) chose to focus on the deliberately staged > disruption of a handful of agent provocateurs, our familiar posse of self > styled patriotic champions of the continued occupation of Kashmir, who > posed for the camera, hyperventilated, and occupied, perhaps no more than > five percent of the attention of several patient hours. If you saw the > news reports on Times Now’s ‘NEWSHOUR’ programme, you would have thought > that all of what happened was their presence as a ‘protest’ against the > meeting. As someone who was present through much of this, I am totally, > utterly aghast that a lie of such magnificient proportions could be > dished out with such ease. I am aghast that Aditya Raj Kaul who was one > of the panel invited by Arnab Goswami to the Times Now Newshour show > could lie with a straight face by saying that there was no attempt made > to ‘disrupt’ the meeting by those who were there to represent his point > of view. > > Someday, I hope that all of these people, the Arnab Goswamis of the > world, find reason to repent for continuing to keep the people of India > and Kashmir in the dark. They had better think hard, because the day when > they will have cause to repent, is not far. Azaadi will come to Kashmir, > and with it, a glimmer of Azaadi will be the share of those people in > India who stood by their Kashmiri friends, in their darkest hour.Going by > what I witnessed yesterday, there will be many such people, so Arnab > Goswami and his ilk had better start practicing how to say sorry, several > hundred times a day. > > > > best, > > > > Shuddha > > --------------------------------------------- > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From chintan.backups at gmail.com Fri Oct 22 11:39:30 2010 From: chintan.backups at gmail.com (Chintan Girish Modi) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 11:39:30 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Damroo: Workshop for Creating Content for Children In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From www.damroo.in Workshop for Creating Content for Children 3rd - 10th November 2010 *IDC, IIT Bombay *Supported by Navajbai Ratan Tata Trust For details contact rajam at iitb.ac.in Concept Note *Bridging the Worlds of the Marginalized and the Privileged* The rich and diverse visual cultures and the vibrant storytelling traditions of South Asia, make up the foundations for this workshop. The workshop brings together creative minds from near and distant lands to create relevant and imaginative content for children. As the twentyfirst century unfolds into its second decade, the world appears as engulfed as before, by conflicts and violences and by the struggle for water, energy, food and other resources that appear scarce and limited in the face of insatiable human greed. The meeting in November attempts to bring together practitioners of traditional arts as well as contemporary voices from South Asia to create content that provokes thought as well as delights, entertains and enlightens the young and the very young. *Format for the Workshop* To initiate the journey, a suggested focus is "Bridging the Worlds of the Marginalized and the Privileged". One hopes that such bridges shall lead to harmonies greater than those we know so far. It is well known however, that more than anything else, a creative mind longs for space and open-endedness. It may well happen, that the November Workshop throws up directions that are altogether new. *Workshop Schedule* *3 November '10:* Arrival at IDC. Introductions *4 November '10: * Discussion on possibilities, formation of groups *5, 6, November '10:* Creation of Content by groups *7 November '10: * Visit to Galleries / Theatre / Sightseeing trip *8, 9 November '10:* Creation of Content by groups *10 November '10: * Summarizing and Charting Out A Future Meet From chintan.backups at gmail.com Fri Oct 22 11:41:46 2010 From: chintan.backups at gmail.com (Chintan Girish Modi) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 11:41:46 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Call for Submissions: Pratilipi Special Issue on Kashmir Message-ID: From http://monicacontinues.blogspot.com/2010/10/call-for-submissions-pratilipi-special.html Call for Submissions: Pratilipi Special Issue on Kashmir I'm curating a special issue on Kashmir for *Pratilipi *. The immediate provocation of course is the cycle of killings and protests that has gripped the Valley since June. I've been wondering: Can art - along with what we know as analysis and activism - analyze, activate, respond? Can art change the discourse? Challenge it? At least introduce a ripple in it? ALTERNATE CALL: If something can change a dream, or a nightmare, art can. The dream life of art can take us outside the most relentless of curfews and also to its most relentless inside. Every stroke of a pen, a brush, on a keyboard can wrap inside itself a stone which will heal a scar, stop violence, and bring what's disappeared back. Do you believe? We must believe. Your mandate for investigation: Kashmir. Inviting poetry, fiction, non-fiction, genre-crossings, translations, images, artwork, sound, video, and other art practices. Entries are welcome in English, Hindi, Kashmiri, Urdu, and other languages. Please consider submitting your work, or forwarding the call to people who you think would be interested. Not every entry might find place in the magazine, but the idea is to find other/multiple ways in which we can present/display the art and mobilize it. Submit to artforkashmir at gmail.com by November 20, with your name and a brief bio. From chintan.backups at gmail.com Fri Oct 22 12:00:05 2010 From: chintan.backups at gmail.com (Chintan Girish Modi) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 12:00:05 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] What a School Could Be Message-ID: From http://blog.klp.org.in/2010/10/glps-halekankapura-or-what-school-could.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+klpblog + GLPS HALEKANKAPURA. Or what a school could be. Posted by Gautam On Monday, we visited GLPS HALEKANKAPURA, a Government Kannada medium Lower Primary school that is located a short drive away from Koppala in Koppala district of North Karnataka. We were surprised to find an airstrip close to the school! The school itself is the only school in the little hamlet and is located near Ginigera. Close to the school is a very large cement plant that provides both employment and material for the school. Sadly, the schools were all on holiday till the 27th but the headmaster, Mr. Rajasaheb, came to show us around the school and this is the real reason we came to visit. The Akshara team from Dharwad had told us about this school and the fantastic work the Headmaster was doing in making it self sufficient. The HM has installed a rain water harvesting system and has a collection tank that can hold enough water to water their vegetable patch for 2 weeks. Vegetable patch, you say? Why yes! The school has its own little vegetable garden where they grow tomatoes, chilly, pumpkin, spinach and more. Everyone helps out and more importantly, this allows them to provide some variety in the food that is served during the mid-day meal. And this is the spotlessly clean kitchen where the meals are cooked - by all accounts, the food is wonderful too. An active headmaster makes such a big difference in a school's management and this is but one example of that. With our KLP initiative, we hope to find and highlight more such schools doing great work and bring them to notice. More power to Mr. Rajasaheb! To read more blog posts, visit http://blog.klp.org.in/ The Karnataka Learning Partnership was formed as a framework for nonprofits, corporations, academic institutions, and citizens to get involved in improving government schools in Karnataka. From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Fri Oct 22 13:22:58 2010 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 13:22:58 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] City Muslims support Kashmiri Pandits against Geelani Message-ID: City Muslims support Kashmiri Pandits *By:* Abhishek Anand - Mid Day Link - http://www.mid-day.com/news/2010/oct/221010-News-Delhi-Hurriyat-leader-heckled-press-conference-Shah.htm Hurriyat hawk Syed Ali Shah Geelani had an agenda on his Delhi visit. Sadly, for him, he would have to remain an unsatisfied man.Though it was not the first time that somebody tried to communalise the Kashmir issue, it was probably the first time by somebody from the Hurriyat. However, Geelani's evil designs not just met with shoe that was hurled at him at a meeting in the national capital. He also got a rude shock when people from the Muslim community showed up with a group of Kashmiri Pandits who reached a seminar at the LTG Auditorium on Copernicus Marg, being attended by Geelani and Naxal supporters like Arundhati Roy. Nasim Akhtar, 40, is one of the city Muslims who had joined the representatives of the displaced community in protesting against the Hurriyat hardliner.Parliament attack accused Prof SAR Geelani had organised the seminar and the subject was Kashmir's 'azaadi'. "These Pandits are living with me for the last many years. I can understand their pain of being separated from their motherland. The separatists have done great injustice with them. Even if they want a free Kashmir, it could not be made on the basis of religious discrimination," Akhtar, leader of a traders association in Karol Bagh, told MiD DAY. "People like Geelani must know that divisive agenda cannot succeed," he said. Akhtar said he wanted Geelani to know that what he was doing is wrong. "They breathe in India's air, they wear clothes made in India, they eat food grown in India, the live on Indian land then how could they talk against India. If they want to quit India then I dare them to stop using everything that is Indian." From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Fri Oct 22 13:44:06 2010 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 13:44:06 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Terrorist Maoist Sympathizer Arundhati Roy promotes secession Message-ID: *Arundhati promotes secession* * October 22, 2010* *Deepak K Jha | New Delhi* * The Pioneer Link - http://www.dailypioneer.com/291392/Arundhati-promotes-secession.html * *Says ‘Kashmir should get Azadi from bhookhe-nange Hindustan’* Kashmir should get Azadi from bhookhe-nange Hindustan,” said Arundhati Roy at a seminar where the Maoists hosted Kashmir secessionist leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani, which witnessed large scale protests by Kashmiri Pandits. A large number of protesters were detained at the behest of Parliament House attack accused SAR Gilani, who moderated the seminar promoting secession in the heart of the national Capital on Thursday. The seminar was disrupted many a time when author-activist Arundhati Roy, a known Maoist sympathiser, openly preached secession while expressing her views and urging the audience comprising Kashmiri youth, students from AMU and also from DU to stand up and fight for the cause of a separate Kashmir and to get a fair play in the name of “Idea of Justice”. “India needs Azadi from Kashmir and Kashmir from India. It is a good debate that has started. We must deepen this conversation and am happy that young people are getting involved for this cause which is their future. Indian Government is a hollow super power and I disassociate with it,” Roy said amid great applause from separatists. “Earlier we used to talk about our head held high and now we lay prostrate to the US,” she added. Referring to one of her earlier writings, Roy mentioned that Kashmiris have to decide whether they want to be with or get separated from “bhookhe-nange Hindustan where more than 830 million people live on Rs 20 per day only”. Espousing the separatist cause, Roy also said that in the early 90s India opened two gates - one for the Babri Masjid issue and the other for the economy. “We ushered in two kinds of totalitarianism. One the Hindu totalitarians and the other economic totalitarian,” she said. The convention on ‘Azadi — The Only Way’ organised by Committee for the Release of Political Prisoners (CRPP), was being attended by a number of sympathisers of Kashmiri separatists and Naxalites. The moment Geelani arrived to speak, the protesters numbering around 70 shouted slogans asking him to leave along with those demanding separate Kashmir. Amid pandemonium inside the LTG Auditorium, the protesters shouted slogans like ‘Bharat Mata Ki Jai’ and ‘Vande Mataram’ several times when various speakers expressed their views and opinions driving towards a separate Kashmir. At least 50 of the protesters, including those from Roots to Kashmir and Panun Kashmir were detained by the police and released late in the evening. At the time of the protest, SAR Geelani, a lecturer in Delhi University who was accused in the Parliament attack case but later set free, was speaking on the topic. Besides Geelani, other participants in the seminar included writer and activist Arundhati Roy, senior journalist Najeeb Mubaraki, Telangana activist Varvara Rao, president of the CRPP Gursharan Singh (represented by his daughter due to Singh’s ill health), media critic Shuddabrata Sengupta, and separatists from Manipur and Nagaland in the six-hour-long programme. “This is atrocious. It is happening right in the Capital of the country when a few people are talking to break the secular ethos of the country. We stand for united India. I do not know why the country’s administration is pampering them in the name of Islam. Kashmir belongs to all, including the Kashmiri Pandits and we will do all to safeguard that interest,” said Aditya Raj Kaul, one of the protesters who led a group of young students and professionals condemning the seminar called and moderated by Gilani and a group of Naxal sympathisers. Emotions erupted and tempers ran high amid a group of Kashmiri Pandits there to listen to the opinion when Roy said that: “I am also aware of the stories about Kashmiri Pandits. I must tell you that Panun Kashmir is a false group”. Taken aback by this statement, 65-year-old Nancy Kaul stood up and questioned the sanctity of Roy’s statement. Kaul was joined by a few others echoing the sentiments of Kashmiri Pandits and other displaced persons from Jammu and Kashmir. Nancy was also attacked by a young person, probably from the north-east who also misbehaved with her and threw the paper material Kaul was carrying with her. “Jis thali mein kha rahey hain usi thali eein ched kar rahey hain yain yes log,” Kaul and others shouted pointing towards Roy and other speakers. The police had to be called again to pacify the small group of protesters and a large group of members advocating Azadi. While urging Kashmiris to boycott interlocutors, Syed Ali Shah Geelani rejected the eight-point agenda rolled out by the Centre for defusing crisis in the Valley. Though saying that the people of Kashmir are not against any dialogue, the Hurriyat leader said the talks should be on the core issue and Pakistan should also be involved in the discussions. “The dialogue should not be bilateral. India, Pakistan and representatives of people of Jammu and Kashmir should sit together with the reference of sacrifices made by Kashmiris during the last 63 years. Indian Government has to accept our five-point agenda, then only we will initiate talks with interlocutors, otherwise I ask Kashmiris to boycott them,” said the separatist leader. The hardline leader added that since 1947, 150 such dialogues have been held but without any result, we will not participate in any discussions until our five-point agenda is accepted by India. “Our five points are -- first Indian security forces should be withdrawn from J&K under UN supervision. Political prisoners be released, cases should be registered against the killers of 111 innocent people, who had been killed during the last four months. Remember, we are not against Indian or India, we want the rights to self-determination,” said Geelani. SAR Geelani, who moderated the session, said the demand of Kashmir Azadi not only meant the Kashmir Valley but the entire Jammu and Kashmir, Ladakh, Muzzafarabad, Baltistan and Mirpur. Dal Khalsa leader Kanwar Pal Singh used the occasion to criticise the Government, including Prime Minister Manmohan whom he labeled is anti-Sikh. He also took the opportunity to criticise the Indian judiciary and the audience yelled “Shame Shame India, Shame Shame Courts Here”. “The Supreme Court and High Courts are for the bahu-betis only. What a ridiculous judgement was given by the Supreme Court regarding the Parliament attack case and observations made on Afzal Guru. The recent Ayodhya case is a stupid judgement in which facts were not taken into account but only faith ka khaas khayal rakha gaya.” The Naga and Manipuri leaders said that like Manipur and Nagaland, Kashmir was also never part of India. “To be a part during freedom struggle does not mean that we express solidarity to be united with India. We also need freedom as we were free before 1947. What is the problem to India when we say we want freedom,” said a speaker from Naga People’s Movement for Human Rights and Justice. From poojashali at gmail.com Fri Oct 22 14:13:26 2010 From: poojashali at gmail.com (pooja shali) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 14:13:26 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Garden of Solitude - A Novel about Kashmir (Political Turmoil, Militancy, Migration of Pandits and Exile) In-Reply-To: <884351.3420.qm@web55708.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <229292.13010.qm@web51904.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <884351.3420.qm@web55708.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: *The Garden of Solitude - A Novel about Kashmir* (Political Turmoil, Militancy, Migration of Pandits and Exile) A novel about loss, longing and separation. *A power packed fiction and coming-of-age saga on Kashmir* - Hindustan Times *Coming soon - Rupa and Co.* *From the Blurb:* *Kashmir 1990: The vortex of armed insurgency and political turmoil. Protests, military crackdowns, deaths and devastation. Suspicion, mistrust and betrayal divide the Muslims and the Pandits.* *Exodus of hundreds of thousands of Pandits from their homeland is unmourned by the world. *............. Story of Sridar, a Kashmiri Pandit boy, whose family flees Kashmir reluctantly, and is forced to live in exile, battling deprivation, alienation and dementia. Years later, Sridar’s odyssey takes him back to the migrant camps and then to his homeland in search of stories that are on the verge of being forgotten by a generation; stories about identity and ancestry. Haunted by his past, he hopes to find answers to the questions that define him. ............ Join the facebook page for updates on the release: http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Garden-of-Solitude-A-Novel/159060100771166?ref=sgm Recent News: http://www.asiawrites.org/2010/10/siddhartha-gigoos-debut-english.html From shuddha at sarai.net Fri Oct 22 13:48:16 2010 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 13:48:16 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?Azadi=3A_The_Only_Way_=96_Report_f?= =?windows-1252?q?rom_a_Turbulent_Few_Hours_in_Delhi?= In-Reply-To: <8BBC467E269D4AAB90D6E0039F13F241@tara> References: <8BBC467E269D4AAB90D6E0039F13F241@tara> Message-ID: <39D1EA81-10A1-4A13-9C18-F9CD2A3867A8@sarai.net> Dear Tara Prakash, thank you for your response to my posting. To me, the slogan of 'Islamic Republic of Kashmir' is indeed as offensive as that of 'Hindu Rashtra'. And were slogans of that nature vocalized by a major section of the crowd, I would have responded when my turn came to speak, and I would have responded very, critically. I have also heard the coverage of the BBC Hindi service. Here is the link - BBCHindi.com - Is Waqt (10.30 pm (India Time) / 17:00 hrs (GMT), broadcast on 21st October, 2010 https://www.bbc.co.uk/hindi/india/ 2009/07/090701_radio_prog_ak2_tc2.shtml Let me translate verbatim from the report - (as I would have appreciated your doing) " When Arundhati Roy spoke, she was interrupted by some of the present Kashmiri Pandits. When she resumed speaking, the report goes on to say, that "What happened with Kashmir Pandits was unjust ," (the word used is 'Anyay' ) and she raised a question as to whether an independent Kashmir can deliver justice to all its inhabitants. " In reality, she asked the assembled people to deepen their understanding of freedom to include justice, so that no one would feel excluded from their understanding of 'Azadi' The report then goes on to say - "Some of the Kashmiri pandits raised slogans of Vande Mataram, and some of the others present raised slogans pertaining to Azadi and the Islamic Republic of Kashmir...Then, when Syed Ali Shah Geelani spoke, he answered Arundhati Roy by stating that he stands 'guarantee for the safety and security of all minorities in an independent Kashmir'." We then hear an extract from Geelani's speech In the audio track, that is, in the clipping of ambience sound presented before the extract of Geelani's speech, in the programme to illustrate the 'slogans' - you can hear shouting, and the din does not allow you to make out words. I was present on stage, I head 'Vande Mataram' and 'Bharat Mata ki Jai', I did not hear slogans pertaining to an 'Islamic Republic of Kashmir' although slogans of 'Azadi' and slogans like 'Kaun Karega Tarjumani, Syed Ali Shah Geelani' (who will represent us, it is Syed Ali Shah Geelani) etc, were clearly audible. I saw one young person tried to say 'Naara e Taqbeer'. Nobody responded to him, not even with the customary, (and to my mind, inoffensive, 'Allah o Akbar') - which as I have said before is, no better or worse a slogan or utterance, than 'Jai Siya Ram'. If indeed slogans for an 'Islamic Republic' were uttered, then clearly, they were not uttered with much gusto, or with much lung power, or with much people power backing them. The LTG has excellent acoustics, and even the stray comments made by individuals during speeches (as for instance a gentleman sitting in the middle of the auditorium who tried to tell me something as remarkable as being to the effect that even 'Barkha Dutt was a pro-Azadi voice' (he also later said that 'no shoes will be thrown', when Arundhati spoke, because Kashmiris are a 'cultured people') from the audience were often clearly audible. The lady next to him, who repeatedly heckled, was also often clearly audible. So, had there been a loud individual voice saying 'Islamic Republic of Kashmir; I would have heard it, and would have reported it. In any case, presuming it was said, by some isolated person in the audience, and said, inaudibly, no one on the dias made any reference to an 'Islamic Republic of Kashmir'. To say that would be as absurd as saying that someone on the dias said that Kashmir is an 'atoot ang' (indivisible limb) of India. So to say (as the report does) that "slogans for an 'Islamic Republic of Kashmir' were uttered" to characterize the meeting is as misleading as saying that "the slogan of 'Vande Mataram' characterized the meeting". In the radio programme, which you can listen to at the link I have provided above, you cannot hear, any slogan pertaining to the Islamic Republic of Kashmir, you can however hear Syed Ali Shah Geelani giving his 'guarantee' for the safety of minorities in a future Azad Kashmir, with crystal clear audibility. I hope i have made myself, amply clear. best, Shuddha On 22-Oct-10, at 9:00 AM, TaraPrakash wrote: > "No provocative, secterian or hateful slogans were raised by the > majority of the people present." > > It is a cleverly written sentence that you can't really deny. It is > time for SASG to make right kind of noises. But since there is no > denying that struggle in Kashmir is primarily Jihadi, there always > are in the entourage who will raise slogans, that may not sound > provocative, sectarian or offensive to the self styled spokes > person for the self styled tallest leader of Kashmir, but to me > they are. I heardthe coverage of this event on BBC. No need for > excitement, it was BBC Hindi that covers local news from India. > Whoever threw that shoe, or whatever object, on SASG or on whoever, > did the biggest service to the event. Conspiracy theorists will > claim it was done by one of "the majority" The event wouldn't get > so much coverage as it did if that incident did not happen. > Coming back to the coverage on BBC, which is not Times Now or NDTV, > it said slogans were raised in favor of "Islamic Republic of > Kashmir" To a secular mind the conception of "free" Kashmir as > Islamic Republic should be as offensive as India's conception as > Hindu Rashtra. The correspondent on BBC said usual slogans > associated with Kashmiri freedom movement were raised. My > understanding is that he meant the secular slogan of Allah ho Akbar > and the slogan denoting freedom "Kashmir banega Pakistan." But I > understand the majority did not raise those ones. The majority in > Kashmir doesn't raise them either. > > Before the Indian government used very effective jammers, I could > listen to Sada-e-Hurriyat, a radio station operated from some > undisclosed location, and available on shortwave band. It used to > be crude, out of tune songs and full of filthy language against > "Hindu dogs". I used to enjoy sheer indecency that was not readily > available at that time on Radio. Alla hoooo used to be usual > refrain of the songs. The one I liked the most had a line that > translated as: "we will cut the head of the worshipper of monkey." > > We are being told that Kashmir "freeKashmir" will be truely free, > even for those with different faith. But they don't seem to agree. > Duplicity of Hurriyat can be ignored only by SASG's entourage. > > Talking about terrorism in Kashmir, we were told in the below mail > that there is no terrorism in Kashmir except ..." Looks like Jaish- > e-Mohammed admited today from Pakistan that 2 of their operatives > were "martyred" by Indian army. I don't think they were trying to > spread the message of peace and harmony with Indians. > > Moreover, one who says common Kashmiris are not terrorized by stone > pelters and ultra nationalistic zealots is telling a plane lie. > Keep the heat on, spread the message far and wide. Keep dreaming, > but if you are banking on Obama, "free" Kashmir will never be in > the US's interest . So they will never support it, making right > kind of noise is a different issue. > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" > > To: "sarai list" > Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 6:21 PM > Subject: [Reader-list] Azadi: The Only Way – Report from a > Turbulent Few Hours in Delhi > > >> (Apologies for Cross Posting on Kafila.org) >> >> Dear Friends, >> >> I was present and speaking a few hours ago at a meeting titled >> ‘Azadi: The Only Way’ on the situation in Jammu and Kashmir, >> organized by the Committee for the Release of Political Prisoners >> at the Little Theatre Group in Delhi yesterday (21st October). I >> was not present from the beginning of the meeting as I was >> traveling from another city, but can vouch for what occurred from >> around 4:30 pm till the time that the meeting wound up, well >> after 8:00 pm in the evening. >> >> The meeting took place in the packed to capacity auditorium of >> the Little Theatre Group on Copernicus Marg at the heart of New >> Delhi. Several speakers, including the poet Varavara Rao, Prof. >> Mihir Bhattacharya, Sugata Bhadra, Gursharan Singh, G.N.Saibaba, >> Professor Sheikh Showkat Hussain of Srinagar University, the >> journalist Najeeb Mubaraki, a repesentative of the Naga Peoples >> Movement for Human Rights and Justice, the writer Arundhati Roy >> and myself spoke at the meeting. (I may be missing out some >> names, for which I apologize, but I was not present for a part of >> the meeting, at the very beginning) The climax of the meeting was >> a very substantive and significant speech by Syed Ali Shah >> Geelani of the Hurriyat Conference (G), which spelt out the >> vision of liberation (Azaadi) and Justice that Syed Ali Shah >> Geelani held out before the assembled public, of which I will >> write in detail later in this text. >> >> The artist known as ‘Inder Salim’ originally from Kashmir, >> currently living in Delhi, made an intervention by inviting the >> assembled people to take (with him) the stance of a masked stone >> pelter for a brief, silent moment. Students from the Jawaharlal >> Nehru University sang a song, ‘Tu Zinda Hai to Zindagi Ki Jeet >> Mein Yakeen Kar’ invoking the delights of life and liberation. In >> conclusion, the meeting adopted a resolution, which was read, on >> behalf of the Committee for the Release of Political Prisoners, >> by Mihir Bhattacharya. >> >> The atmosphere, for the several hours that I was present, was >> absolutely electric. The vast majority of the audience was warm >> and appreciative of all the speakers. They were patient and >> respectful – and despite grave provocation from a section that >> identified themselves as ‘Indian patriots’ and partisans of the >> ‘Kashmir as indivisible part of India’ position - that repeatedly >> tried to interrupt the meeting and heckle speakers, and on one >> occasion even tried to throw an object at the dias – did not >> stoop to be provoked by these pathetic attempts at disruption of >> a peaceful gathering. >> >> No provocative, secterian or hateful slogans were raised by the >> majority of the people present. The only provocative posturing >> that I witnessed was undertaken by the self-declared Indian >> patriots, who were not stopped from having their say, but were >> requested simply not to disrupt the proceedings. >> >> When their behaviour crossed the limits of public decency, they >> were escorted out of the premises by representatives of the Delhi >> Police. The Delhi Police, to their credit, did not act against >> the majority of the audience, simply because the majority of the >> audience conducted themselves in a completely civil and >> democratic manner. >> >> There was no attempt made at intimidation of any kind. Professor >> SAR Geelani, who was conducting the proceedings on behalf of the >> organizers – Committee for the Release of Political Prisoners >> (CRPP) , repeatedly asked the people obstructing the speakers to >> conduct themselves in a cultured and dignified manner. His pleas >> were disregarded by the section of the crowd that let its >> ‘Indian patriotism’ get the better of its civilisation. When >> things got a little too hot on occasion, the majority of the >> audience present simply drowned the rude remarks and indignant >> posturing of the small minority of self styled Indian patriots >> and champions of the ‘Kashmir as indivisible part of India’ >> position – in wave after wave of cheerful but firm hand clapping. >> >> While there as enthusiastic cheering and sloganeering from the >> majority of the young men and women assembled at the gathering, >> there was no attempt while I was present to give the slogans a >> religious or secterian colour. When Syed Ali Shah Geelani said >> that the people of India and Kashmir are tied together by the >> bonds of insaaniyat (humanity), when he quoted Gandhi, or spoke >> of the necessity of conducting a non-violent struggle that was >> devoid of hatred, or even when he said that he wished to see >> India rise as a great power in the world, but as a power that >> felt no need to oppress others, he was wholeheartedly and >> sincerely applauded, by the majority of people present in the >> auditorium, regardless of whether or not they were Kashmiri. >> >> Yesterday’s meeting needs to be seen in the context of a momentum >> of different events, which have included public meetings at >> Jantar Mantar, meetings in the Jawaharlal Nehru Universtiy and >> Delhi University, film screenings and talks, independently >> organized exhibitions on the history of Jammu and Kashmir in >> educational institutions, photographic exhibitions on the >> situation in Kashmir today that have taken place recently at the >> India Habitat Centre, while Kashmir has reeled under the >> brutality of the occupation that has resulted in a hundred and >> eleven deaths of unarmed or stone pelting people, including >> children and teenagers. The momentum of this process, which >> recognizes the urgency of the situation in Kashmir, needs to be >> taken to its logical conclusion, until the world and the >> international community sits up and takes notice of the true >> nature of the hold of the Indian state on Kashmir and its >> people.We need many more such meetings and gatherings in Delhi, >> and indeed in every large city in India. >> >> It must be maintained so that even a Barack Hussein Obama, >> scheduled to visit New Delhi in November, is compelled to >> recognize the fact that the conduct of the Indian state in >> Kashmir, based as it is on brutal violence and intimidation, >> based as it is on a disregard of every norm of the conduct of >> civilized governance is unacceptable to the world. You simply >> cannot claim to be the world’s largest democracy and preside over >> the deaths of 70,000 people in twenty years. You cannot claim to >> be judged as a democracy and have laws like the Armed Forces >> Special Powers Act. You cannot claim to be a democracy and have >> your police and paramilitaries beat children to death openly on >> the streets, or rape and kill young women with impunity. A state >> that does so is an oppressive, immoral, occupying power, and >> needs to be resisted by every right thinking person in the world. >> The Indian state’s record in Kashmir over the past several decades >> is not only an oppression visited on the people of Kashmir, it is >> an insult to the United Nations, to the world community, and to >> every principle of justice, fairness and democracy. It is an >> insult to all the peace loving and freedom loving citizens of >> India that do not wish to see oppression carried out in their name. >> >> This is the message that needs to go out, and is going out, not >> only from the streets of Sringar, Baramulla and Kupwara, but also >> from gatherings, such as yesterdays, from the heart of Delhi, the >> capital of India. We, who are the friends of liberty and justice >> in India, need to stand besides our Kashmiri brothers and sisters >> and say to the world that we do not accept the lies put out by >> the Indian state and its apologists on Kashmir. That is the true >> significance and import of the process in which yesterday’s >> meeting plays an important part. This process will not stop until >> the world takes notice. The United Nations, and the broad >> democratic currents as well as the political leaderships of >> Europe, the Americas, and of every significant power in the world >> needs to know that hundreds of people, young and old, >> intellectuals, writers, activists, lawyers, teachers and others, >> Indians and Kashmiris can stand united, in Delhi, at the heart of >> the Indian Republic’s capital, in refusing to accept the >> continued occupation of Jammu and Kashmir, by India and by >> Pakistan. That they believe that it is only the people of Jammu >> and Kashmir who must decide for themselves their own future >> destiny, peacefully, in a climate free of coercion and intimidation. >> >> As Syed Ali Shah Geelani and Sheikh Showkat Hussain said, all >> that they are asking for is the right to self determination, >> promised by India, before the Untied Nations, to be freely >> enacted through a plebiscite, in conditions of peace and liberty, >> without the presence of armed force, for the inhabitants of every >> part of the undivided state of Jammu and Kashmir – regardless of >> whether the results of that plebiscite are in favour of India, >> Pakistan or an independent, united, Jammu and Kashmir that can >> live in peace with all its neighbours in South Asia. >> >> There was a great diversity of statements and styles present in >> abundant splendour at yesterday’s meeting. There was no way by >> which the meeting could be reduced or simplified a single >> monotonous statement. Yes, all the panelists, spoke unambiguously >> about the necessity for ending the military occupation by the >> Indian state in Kashmir. This does not mean that their statements >> and sentiments were a manufactured and processed uniformity. The >> people on the panel may have significant political and >> philosophical differences amongst themselves, they may even think >> differently about what ‘Azaadi’ might mean, but this was a sign, >> not of the weakness, but of the strength and vitality of >> yesterday’s gathering. >> >> ‘Azaadi’ if and when it comes, will not be the parting gift of an >> exhausted colonial power, it will be the harvest of the fruits of >> the imaginations and intelligences of millions of people, of >> their debates and their conversations. >> >> What was extremely heart warming was the fact that each speaker >> spoke of the fact that the voices of the people of Kashmir are no >> longer alone and isolated, that there is a chorus of voices in >> different parts of South Asia that echo and endorese their desire >> for liberation from a brutal militarized occupation. From my >> notes of the time that I was there, I recall that the writer >> Arundhati Roy, while endorsing the demand of Azaadi for Kashmir, >> reminded the audience of the need for the people of Kashmir not >> to be selective about justice and injustice, that they must find >> methods to forge webs of solidarity with all the suffering and >> oppressed peoples of India. She was heckled and rudely >> interrupted by a small group of Indian nationalists in the >> audience, who repeatedly raised the situation of Kashmiri >> Pandits, Arundhati Roy, when she was able to resume speaking, >> spoke unambiguously about the fact that she considered the >> situation of Kashmiri Pandits to be a tragedy. She was echoed in >> this sentiment later by Syed Ali Shah Geelani who said that he >> personally stands guarantee for the safety and security of all >> minorities, Hindu, Sikh, Buddhists, Christians and others in a >> future free Kashmir. He implored the Pandits to return to >> Kashmir, and said, that they are an integral part of Kashmiri >> society. He spoke of the need for ensuring that a free Kashmir >> was a just Kashmir, and that justice meant that the freedom, >> safety and security of all minorities, of their property, their >> places of worship, their freedom of conscience be given the >> utmost importance. He reminded the assembled people that >> throughout these turbulent months, the people of Kashmir have >> continued to be hospitable to Hindu pilgrims, have set up >> ‘Langars’ (Kitchens) for them, and have cared for them when they >> have fallen sick, despite being at the receiving end of the >> violence of the Indian state. >> >> I spoke briefly, about the fact that I was proud that so many of >> us had gathered in my city, Delhi, putting aside the abstraction >> of our politically determined, state given construct of >> citizenship, and standing, here, now, on the grounds of a concrete >> human solidarity with the people of Kashmir. I spoke of the fact >> that there are significant voices, even in the mainstream media >> who have been compelled to recognize the urgency of the situation >> in Kashmir, by the sheer determination of the youth of Kashmir to >> get the news of what is happening in Kashmir out to the world. I >> spoke of the role played by facebook sites like ‘Aalaw’ and >> blogs, and the fact that the people of India and the world can no >> longer be kept in the dark by a pliant media, as happened in >> 1989-90. I spoke of the ways in which the viral circulation of >> leaked videos of the humiliation of Kashmiri youth on facebook >> pages and online fora have successfully shown us what the reality >> of Kashmir is today. I urged media professionals in the mainstream >> media to introspect and reflect on the role that they may be >> compelled, against their own professional ehtics, to play in the >> pyschological and propaganda war that the Indian state is >> currently conducting. I spoke of my sense of shame and remorse at >> the evasive and dissimulating role played by sections of the >> mainstream media in India while reporting (or not reporting) >> atrocities that make even the images from Abu Gharaib pale in >> comparison. >> >> I am ashamed to say, that despite my respectful plea to the media >> to play a responsible role in their reportage of Kashmir related >> matters, major channels like Times Now and NDTV once again let >> the truth down in their reports on the days events. NDTV saw it >> fit to simply report >> >> an incident of ‘shoe throwing at SAS Geelani’. A shoe (or some >> other indeterminate object) was indeed thrown, but not at Geelani. >> It landed on a bottle of water in front of another speaker, while >> he was speaking. So let’s at least set that record straight. >> Arnab Goswami of Times Now, while conducting what he likes to >> call a ‘debate; on the programme called ‘News Hour’ (neither >> News, nor just an Hour) repeatedly uttered hysterical untruths, >> such as the presumption that ‘No State permits the advocacy of >> secession and self determination’ and that a meeting such as the >> one I participated in yesterday, were it to take place, say, in >> the United States, would immediately lead to all speakers present >> (including, presumably, myself) in being imprisoned on charges of >> sedition. I have to inform my readers here, that on both counts, >> Arnab Goswami is wrong. Seriously wrong. Either he is a >> misinformed idiot. Or he knows that he is wrong, and is lying to >> his public through his teeth. We can choose to be generous about >> how he would interpret his motives, and assume he is simply a fool. >> >> Goswami, consequently demanded to know why we were not immediately >> imprisoned under section 124 of the Indian penal code. Arnab >> Goswami needs to be reminded, that in United States law, the >> provisions of the Sedition Act are applicable only in times when >> the country is in a declared state of war. And therefore his >> analogy does not apply, as I am not aware that the Indian >> republic is currently in a declared state of war, as per >> international law, (unless Arnab Goswami has lost his marbles to >> the extent that he confuses the shadow boxing that he does on >> television with a war declared by a state under international >> law). That, furthermore, the provisions of the US Sedition Law >> have been declared substantially void by the US Supreme Court >> ruling in the Brandenberg vs. Ohio (1969) judgement, and of >> course, by the US Supreme court guaranteeing the primacy of free >> speech, including ‘seditious’ speech, including the burning of >> the United States flag, under the provisions of the first >> amendment to the US constitution. >> >> There have been repeated attempts made to pass a law that would >> make ‘flag burning’ an offence under US Law. Fortunately, (for >> liberty and free speech) as of now, these attempts have not come >> to pass, and currently, under US Law it is perfectly legal to >> advocate self- determination and secwssion, if done peacefully, >> even to the extent of burning or destroying or descerating >> symbols of state authority like the national flag. Furthermore >> several constiutions, such as the constitutions of Canada, >> Ethipopia, Austria and France, implicitly or explicitly, provide >> for a legal expression of right to self determination, provided it >> is exercised in a peaceful and democratic manner, as part of the >> freedom of expression principle. >> >> But the point that needs to be made is larger than whether or not >> Arnab Goswami is a fool and a charlatan. Yesterday’s meeting was >> a historic opportunity for his channel, and indeed for all of >> the Indian mainstream media, to report and take cognizance of the >> fact that there is a significant section of Indian public opinion >> that is actually in favour of ‘Azaadi’ in Kashmir. I am not >> suggesting that this section constitutes an overwhelming majority >> at present (that might change) but, that it does exist, and that >> it presents, cogent, precise arguments, that cannot be dismissed, >> (as is being done by Times Now and its ilk) by invoking the >> spectre of ‘terrorism’. There is hardly any ‘terrorism’ in >> Kashmir today (if we don’t count the Indian state and its >> terror) . The 111 people who have died in the past months, have >> not died at the hands of non-state insurgents, they have died, >> unarmed, facing the bullets of the Indian state. The movement for >> Azaadi in Kashmir has left the culture of the gun and the grenade >> behind. It fights today without weapons, armed only with courage. >> If there is a terrorist in Kashmir today, he wears the uniform of >> the forces of the Indian state, and carries the weapons supplied >> by the arsenal of the Indian state. To discount the voices that >> rise in dissent against this reality as ‘terrorist sympathizers’ >> as Arnab Goswami has done on his channel is to insult reality. >> >> Syed Ali Shah Geelani spoke of the bonds of insaaniyat that tie >> the peoples of Kashmir and India yesterday. I heard him say this. >> I was barely five feet away from him. I heard him speak of his >> regard and respect for the minorities in Jammu and Kashmir. I do >> not agree with much of what Geelani Saheb represents politically, >> or ideologically, but I have no hesitation in saying that what he >> said yesterday, was surprising for its gentleness, for its >> consideration, for its moderation, even for its liberality and >> open heartedness. This should have been big news. That Syed Ali >> Shah Geelani said that he wants to see a strong and resurgent >> India. I heard him say this. And was this reported by anyone? NO. >> Was it reported that he was cheered when he said this ? NO. Was >> it reported that no one had any thing angry to say against the >> struggling peoples of India? NO. Was it reported that SAS >> Geelani expilicity said that he is NOT against dialogue, provided >> that the five point formula put forward by him (none of whose >> provisions – 1. acceptance of the disputed nature of the >> territory of Jammu and Kashmir, 2. repeal of AFSPA and other black >> laws, 3. release of political detenues and prisoners, 4. >> withdrawal of the disproportionate presence of the armed forces >> and 5. punishment to those gulty of taking life in the past few >> months – require the government of India to think ‘outside’ the >> framework of the Indian Constitution) are accepted as the basis >> of the dialogue? NO. >> >> Don’t you think that it makes BIG news that the tallest >> separatist leader in Jammu and Kashmir actually, in a moderate >> voice, spells out, in Delhi, the fundamental basis of a >> considered dialogue with the Indian state, while offering it a >> chance to do so on bases that are absolutely reasonable and >> sound, and honourable to all concerned? Do you not think that a >> responsible media organization would consider this a scoop, a >> major news stor? But that is not what happened. >> >> Instead, Times Now, (and I am waiting for the morning newspapers >> to see how far this muck has spread) chose to focus on the >> deliberately staged disruption of a handful of agent >> provocateurs, our familiar posse of self styled patriotic >> champions of the continued occupation of Kashmir, who posed for >> the camera, hyperventilated, and occupied, perhaps no more than >> five percent of the attention of several patient hours. If you >> saw the news reports on Times Now’s ‘NEWSHOUR’ programme, you >> would have thought that all of what happened was their presence >> as a ‘protest’ against the meeting. As someone who was present >> through much of this, I am totally, utterly aghast that a lie of >> such magnificient proportions could be dished out with such ease. >> I am aghast that Aditya Raj Kaul who was one of the panel invited >> by Arnab Goswami to the Times Now Newshour show could lie with a >> straight face by saying that there was no attempt made to >> ‘disrupt’ the meeting by those who were there to represent his >> point of view. >> >> Someday, I hope that all of these people, the Arnab Goswamis of >> the world, find reason to repent for continuing to keep the people >> of India and Kashmir in the dark. They had better think hard, >> because the day when they will have cause to repent, is not far. >> Azaadi will come to Kashmir, and with it, a glimmer of Azaadi >> will be the share of those people in India who stood by their >> Kashmiri friends, in their darkest hour.Going by what I witnessed >> yesterday, there will be many such people, so Arnab Goswami and >> his ilk had better start practicing how to say sorry, several >> hundred times a day. >> >> >> >> best, >> >> >> >> Shuddha >> >> --------------------------------------------- >> >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From shuddha at sarai.net Fri Oct 22 14:09:00 2010 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 14:09:00 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Terrorist Maoist Sympathizer Arundhati Roy promotes secession In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This is a preposterous lie, and the author of the so called 'report' in the Pioneer can be sued for libel. I can vouch for this as i was there. Arundhati's speech was recorded, and anyone who is interested can have access to the recording. Arundhati Roy in fact said - that "the one slogan that she heard sometimes in Kashmir that deeply saddened her was 'Bhookha Nanga Hindustan, Jaan se Pyaara Pakistan'. (India is Naked and Hungrly, Pakistan is dearer to us than Life'). She categorically voiced her opposition to such a slogan, in fact she invoked it in order to strongly condemn such a sentiment, and went on to say that the people of Kashmir must realize that it is the 'bhookha - nanga' , the naked and the hungry, the poor and the oppressed of India, who people in Kashmir must stand in solidarity with. This was enthusiastically applauded. She called upon the struggling people of Kashmir NOT to be selective in their choice of injustices to struggle against. She called for a solidarity between struggles for justice in Kashmir, and in India, and the world. To suggest that she gave a call for 'Azadi' from 'bhookha nanga' India, is to twist her words, and to say the virtually the very opposite of what she meant - which was a joining of hands of the struggles of the working poor for justice in India and the struggles for liberty in Kashmir. Aditya Raj Kaul, by offering up this disinformation, has once again proved his true character on this list. I think this is a matter of shame, and should be condemned by all. It is one thing to be critical of a viewpoint, which everyone has a right to be, and it is quite another to disinform and lie. best Shuddha On 22-Oct-10, at 1:44 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > *Arundhati promotes secession* > * > October 22, 2010* > > *Deepak K Jha | New Delhi* > * > The Pioneer > > Link - http://www.dailypioneer.com/291392/Arundhati-promotes- > secession.html > * > *Says ‘Kashmir should get Azadi from bhookhe-nange Hindustan’* > > Kashmir should get Azadi from bhookhe-nange Hindustan,” said > Arundhati Roy > at a seminar where the Maoists hosted Kashmir secessionist leader > Syed Ali > Shah Geelani, which witnessed large scale protests by Kashmiri > Pandits. A > large number of protesters were detained at the behest of > Parliament House > attack accused SAR Gilani, who moderated the seminar promoting > secession in > the heart of the national Capital on Thursday. > > The seminar was disrupted many a time when author-activist > Arundhati Roy, a > known Maoist sympathiser, openly preached secession while > expressing her > views and urging the audience comprising Kashmiri youth, students > from AMU > and also from DU to stand up and fight for the cause of a separate > Kashmir > and to get a fair play in the name of “Idea of Justice”. > > “India needs Azadi from Kashmir and Kashmir from India. It is a > good debate > that has started. We must deepen this conversation and am happy > that young > people are getting involved for this cause which is their future. > Indian > Government is a hollow super power and I disassociate with it,” Roy > said > amid great applause from separatists. “Earlier we used to talk > about our > head held high and now we lay prostrate to the US,” she added. > Referring to > one of her earlier writings, Roy mentioned that Kashmiris have to > decide > whether they want to be with or get separated from “bhookhe-nange > Hindustan > where more than 830 million people live on Rs 20 per day only”. > > Espousing the separatist cause, Roy also said that in the early 90s > India > opened two gates - one for the Babri Masjid issue and the other for > the > economy. “We ushered in two kinds of totalitarianism. One the Hindu > totalitarians and the other economic totalitarian,” she said. > > The convention on ‘Azadi — The Only Way’ organised by Committee for > the > Release of Political Prisoners (CRPP), was being attended by a > number of > sympathisers of Kashmiri separatists and Naxalites. The moment Geelani > arrived to speak, the protesters numbering around 70 shouted > slogans asking > him to leave along with those demanding separate Kashmir. Amid > pandemonium > inside the LTG Auditorium, the protesters shouted slogans like > ‘Bharat Mata > Ki Jai’ and ‘Vande Mataram’ several times when various speakers > expressed > their views and opinions driving towards a separate Kashmir. > > At least 50 of the protesters, including those from Roots to > Kashmir and > Panun Kashmir were detained by the police and released late in the > evening. > At the time of the protest, SAR Geelani, a lecturer in Delhi > University who > was accused in the Parliament attack case but later set free, was > speaking > on the topic. Besides Geelani, other participants in the seminar > included > writer and activist Arundhati Roy, senior journalist Najeeb Mubaraki, > Telangana activist Varvara Rao, president of the CRPP Gursharan Singh > (represented by his daughter due to Singh’s ill health), media critic > Shuddabrata Sengupta, and separatists from Manipur and Nagaland in the > six-hour-long programme. > > “This is atrocious. It is happening right in the Capital of the > country when > a few people are talking to break the secular ethos of the country. > We stand > for united India. I do not know why the country’s administration is > pampering them in the name of Islam. Kashmir belongs to all, > including the > Kashmiri Pandits and we will do all to safeguard that interest,” > said Aditya > Raj Kaul, one of the protesters who led a group of young students and > professionals condemning the seminar called and moderated by Gilani > and a > group of Naxal sympathisers. > > Emotions erupted and tempers ran high amid a group of Kashmiri > Pandits there > to listen to the opinion when Roy said that: “I am also aware of > the stories > about Kashmiri Pandits. I must tell you that Panun Kashmir is a false > group”. Taken aback by this statement, 65-year-old Nancy Kaul stood > up and > questioned the sanctity of Roy’s statement. Kaul was joined by a > few others > echoing the sentiments of Kashmiri Pandits and other displaced > persons from > Jammu and Kashmir. Nancy was also attacked by a young person, > probably from > the north-east who also misbehaved with her and threw the paper > material > Kaul was carrying with her. “Jis thali mein kha rahey hain usi > thali eein > ched kar rahey hain yain yes log,” Kaul and others shouted pointing > towards > Roy and other speakers. The police had to be called again to pacify > the > small group of protesters and a large group of members advocating > Azadi. > > While urging Kashmiris to boycott interlocutors, Syed Ali Shah Geelani > rejected the eight-point agenda rolled out by the Centre for > defusing crisis > in the Valley. Though saying that the people of Kashmir are not > against any > dialogue, the Hurriyat leader said the talks should be on the core > issue and > Pakistan should also be involved in the discussions. “The dialogue > should > not be bilateral. India, Pakistan and representatives of people of > Jammu and > Kashmir should sit together with the reference of sacrifices made by > Kashmiris during the last 63 years. Indian Government has to accept > our > five-point agenda, then only we will initiate talks with > interlocutors, > otherwise I ask Kashmiris to boycott them,” said the separatist > leader. > > The hardline leader added that since 1947, 150 such dialogues have > been held > but without any result, we will not participate in any discussions > until our > five-point agenda is accepted by India. “Our five points are -- > first Indian > security forces should be withdrawn from J&K under UN supervision. > Political > prisoners be released, cases should be registered against the > killers of 111 > innocent people, who had been killed during the last four months. > Remember, > we are not against Indian or India, we want the rights to > self-determination,” said Geelani. > > SAR Geelani, who moderated the session, said the demand of Kashmir > Azadi not > only meant the Kashmir Valley but the entire Jammu and Kashmir, > Ladakh, > Muzzafarabad, Baltistan and Mirpur. > > Dal Khalsa leader Kanwar Pal Singh used the occasion to criticise the > Government, including Prime Minister Manmohan whom he labeled is > anti-Sikh. > He also took the opportunity to criticise the Indian judiciary and the > audience yelled “Shame Shame India, Shame Shame Courts Here”. “The > Supreme > Court and High Courts are for the bahu-betis only. What a ridiculous > judgement was given by the Supreme Court regarding the Parliament > attack > case and observations made on Afzal Guru. The recent Ayodhya case is a > stupid judgement in which facts were not taken into account but > only faith > ka khaas khayal rakha gaya.” > > The Naga and Manipuri leaders said that like Manipur and Nagaland, > Kashmir > was also never part of India. “To be a part during freedom struggle > does not > mean that we express solidarity to be united with India. We also need > freedom as we were free before 1947. What is the problem to India > when we > say we want freedom,” said a speaker from Naga People’s Movement > for Human > Rights and Justice. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From shuddha at sarai.net Fri Oct 22 14:11:28 2010 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 14:11:28 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Garden of Solitude - A Novel about Kashmir (Political Turmoil, Militancy, Migration of Pandits and Exile) In-Reply-To: References: <229292.13010.qm@web51904.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <884351.3420.qm@web55708.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5F288F16-655C-4D36-A879-DA9CA20CCAC1@sarai.net> Dear Pooja, Thanks for sending this on. will look forward to reading it. best regards Shuddha On 22-Oct-10, at 2:13 PM, pooja shali wrote: > *The Garden of Solitude - A Novel about Kashmir* > > (Political Turmoil, Militancy, Migration of Pandits and Exile) > > A novel about loss, longing and separation. > > *A power packed fiction and coming-of-age saga on Kashmir* - > Hindustan Times > > *Coming soon - Rupa and Co.* > *From the Blurb:* > > *Kashmir 1990: The vortex of armed insurgency and political turmoil. > Protests, military crackdowns, deaths and devastation. Suspicion, > mistrust > and betrayal divide the Muslims and the Pandits.* > *Exodus of hundreds of thousands of Pandits from their homeland is > unmourned > by the world. > *............. > Story of Sridar, a Kashmiri Pandit boy, whose family flees Kashmir > reluctantly, and is forced to live in exile, battling deprivation, > alienation and dementia. > Years later, Sridar’s odyssey takes him back to the migrant camps > and then > to his homeland in search of stories that are on the verge of being > forgotten by a generation; stories about identity and ancestry. > Haunted by > his past, he hopes to find answers to the questions that define him. > ............ > > > Join the facebook page for updates on the release: > http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Garden-of-Solitude-A-Novel/ > 159060100771166?ref=sgm > Recent News: > http://www.asiawrites.org/2010/10/siddhartha-gigoos-debut-english.html > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From cashmeeri at yahoo.com Fri Oct 22 14:38:46 2010 From: cashmeeri at yahoo.com (cashmeeri) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 02:08:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Geelani announced one Article of the Constitution of Free Kashmir - its "Liquor Policy" Message-ID: <655243.50391.qm@web112614.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>   Geelani announced one Article of the Constitution of Free Kashmir - its "Liquor Policy":   http://www.prokerala.com/news/articles/a176267.html   "The system of justice in an independent Jammu and Kashmir would be such that even liquor would not be banned for non-Muslims. It would be prohibited fo......r the Muslim majority but if minorities feel they want to have liquor they would be allowed to consume as their right,"   Hello!!!! Hello!!!! I thought it was going to be a Secular Free Kashmir. This sounds suspiciously like an Islamic Free Kashmir.   Interesting prospect : Free Kashmir ..... no Non-Muslims ..... no Liquor   Maybe it is the "Tourism Policy"   ............. aalok aima From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Fri Oct 22 14:44:56 2010 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 14:44:56 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Garden of Solitude - A Novel about Kashmir (Political Turmoil, Militancy, Migration of Pandits and Exile) In-Reply-To: <5F288F16-655C-4D36-A879-DA9CA20CCAC1@sarai.net> References: <229292.13010.qm@web51904.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <884351.3420.qm@web55708.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <5F288F16-655C-4D36-A879-DA9CA20CCAC1@sarai.net> Message-ID: I hope this book finally clears some misconceptions on Kashmir among few forum members who are almost ready to be 'Suicide Squads' for likes of Syed Ali Shah Geelani. On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 2:11 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > Dear Pooja, > > Thanks for sending this on. will look forward to reading it. > > best regards > > Shuddha > > > On 22-Oct-10, at 2:13 PM, pooja shali wrote: > > *The Garden of Solitude - A Novel about Kashmir* >> >> (Political Turmoil, Militancy, Migration of Pandits and Exile) >> >> A novel about loss, longing and separation. >> >> *A power packed fiction and coming-of-age saga on Kashmir* - Hindustan >> Times >> >> *Coming soon - Rupa and Co.* >> *From the Blurb:* >> >> *Kashmir 1990: The vortex of armed insurgency and political turmoil. >> Protests, military crackdowns, deaths and devastation. Suspicion, mistrust >> and betrayal divide the Muslims and the Pandits.* >> *Exodus of hundreds of thousands of Pandits from their homeland is >> unmourned >> by the world. >> *............. >> Story of Sridar, a Kashmiri Pandit boy, whose family flees Kashmir >> reluctantly, and is forced to live in exile, battling deprivation, >> alienation and dementia. >> Years later, Sridar’s odyssey takes him back to the migrant camps and then >> to his homeland in search of stories that are on the verge of being >> forgotten by a generation; stories about identity and ancestry. Haunted by >> his past, he hopes to find answers to the questions that define him. >> ............ >> >> >> Join the facebook page for updates on the release: >> >> http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Garden-of-Solitude-A-Novel/159060100771166?ref=sgm >> Recent News: >> http://www.asiawrites.org/2010/10/siddhartha-gigoos-debut-english.html >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From shuddha at sarai.net Fri Oct 22 15:03:41 2010 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 15:03:41 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Geelani announced one Article of the Constitution of Free Kashmir - its "Liquor Policy" In-Reply-To: <655243.50391.qm@web112614.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <655243.50391.qm@web112614.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <963D2A87-EB89-41A4-906B-649EC4B7FD08@sarai.net> Well, on these grounds, Syed Ali Shah Geelani is more moderate than Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi, who advocated total prohibition, (regardless of whether one was or was not a believer in any religion) and was even against the drinking of tea. Does that mean that we think that his vision of 'Ram Rajya' would be identical to what Aalok Aima considers to be an Islamic state? Incidentally, the state of Gujarat, has consistently imposed total prohibition in deference to M.K. Gandhi's ideas on prohibition for as long as it has existed as a state of the Indian Union. So, as per Mr. Aima's suggestion, would we now be prepared to admit that Mr. Modi's Gujarat (and the Gujarat of all his predecessors) is the closest we have come to having an 'islamic State' in India. Oh no, the closest we actually came to being an Islamic state in India was actually during Morarji Desai;s prime ministership, when some of the current champions of Hindutva were in power, when total prohibition was imposed on all of India. In fact we came even closer than the vision of SAS Geelani, which at least allows the 'non-believer' his or her daily tipple? Incidentally, Mr. Geelani went on to suggest that if a bottle of alchohl belongiing to a non believer was willingly or unwillingly damaged by a Muslim, then the state would have to compensate the non-believer for that damage. I haven;t quite heard of an Islamic state willing to pay people to drink alchohl (if their bottle has been damaged). He went on to quote an 'aayat' that said - "Muslims, do not insult even the idols (but) of the idol worshippers, for they will insult your God in return" and that the obligations of humanity are binding in our relations even with those we consider to be our enemies. Interesting stuff, coming as it does from the man who is so offen held up as a figure of inflexible bigotry. By the way, none of this means that I agree with Mr. SAS Geelani;s vision of the future. I am merely stating the facts that I know and witnessed. best Shuddha On 22-Oct-10, at 2:38 PM, cashmeeri wrote: > > Geelani announced one Article of the Constitution of Free Kashmir - > its "Liquor Policy": > > http://www.prokerala.com/news/articles/a176267.html > > "The system of justice in an independent Jammu and Kashmir would be > such that even liquor would not be banned for non-Muslims. It would > be prohibited fo......r the Muslim majority but if minorities feel > they want to have liquor they would be allowed to consume as their > right," > > Hello!!!! Hello!!!! > I thought it was going to be a Secular Free Kashmir. This sounds > suspiciously like an Islamic Free Kashmir. > > Interesting prospect : Free Kashmir ..... no Non-Muslims ..... no > Liquor > > Maybe it is the "Tourism Policy" > > ............. aalok aima > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From sonia.jabbar at gmail.com Fri Oct 22 16:37:19 2010 From: sonia.jabbar at gmail.com (SJabbar) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 16:37:19 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?iso-8859-1?q?Azadi=3A_The_Only_Way_=AD_Report_fro?= =?iso-8859-1?q?m_a_Turbulent_Few_Hours_in_Delhi?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Shuddha, I've read with interest your report on the meeting at the LTG and am amazed that you have aligned yourself with and have so wholeheartedly endorsed the reactionary politics of SAS Geelani. Whatever he may have said for the benefit of audiences in New Delhi he has always advocated Kashmir's accession to Pakistan based on the 2-nation theory. He has made this unambiguously clear in his book on the Kashmir issue: 'Nava-e-Hurriyat'. He has reiterated this position as late as Sept 25 in an interview to Seema Mustafa of News X where he clearly states the independence option is not viable. He has never described the Kashmiri movement as a political struggle but a jihad and had in 1992 even written to the Afghan Mujahideen to save Kashmir from 'Hindu India.' And what of the votaries of independence and their assassination by the Hizb, the armed wing of the Jamat e-Isami of which Geelani was a member until his expulsion in 2003? What is SAS Geelani's position on that? If he has ever condemned it I should be grateful if someone were to send me a reference. That a man who has all his life scorned the notion of an independent Kashmir should now detail the character and complexion of such a state including its attitude to the sale and consumption of alcohol is truly funny, that he should quote Gandhi, even funnier (he was one of the first to castigate Yasin Malik's Gandhian methods of fasting as 'un-Islamic'.) That he should call for the return of the Pandits without once condemning their killings or the killings of Communists and National Conference workers in Kashmir is like Advani speaking about the prosperity of Muslims in Gujarat. You say Syed Ali Shah says "explicitly" he is not against dialogue, but you don't stop to question the placing of preconditions to a dialogue. Geelani has scorned talks with Delhi for years. He has abused those who have talked to N Delhi as traitors. The HM has assassinated those who dared to talk to N Delhi, whether it was Moulvi Farooq, Qazi Nissar, and even its own senior commanders like Abdul Majid Dar (they didn't even spare his wife Dr. Shameema who was shot at and grievously injured several years after her husband's murder.) Who places preconditions and then says let's have unconditional talks? What would you say if New Delhi were to say, we will only speak to SASG if he stops describing Kashmir as disputed territory or for that matter we will not speak to Hurriyat (M) and JKLF until they give up their stand on independent Kashmir? All of us would think New Delhi as being supremely unreasonable to expect a negotiation to begin by insisting the other party give up its core premise. And what is Geelani's FIRST precondition? That India accept that J&K is disputed territory. For India to accept that (esp. On SASG's goading) would mean, in diplomatese, to forgo its position on the Simla Agreement and all other agreements reached with Pakistan post 1972 and return to 1948 and the 'dispute' that was framed in the UN Resolutions, meaning, tossing the ball back into the UN and set itself up to arbitration from the international community. Why should it do that when both parties to the dispute agreed to settle the issue bilaterally? SAS Geelani knows that well enough and is content having tossed his 5 points into the arena and say, well I never said I wouldn't talk. Best sj On 22/10/10 3:51 AM, "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" wrote: > (Apologies for Cross Posting on Kafila.org) Dear Friends, I was present and > speaking a few hours ago at a meeting titled ŒAzadi: The Only Way¹ on the > situation in Jammu and Kashmir, organized by the Committee for the Release > of Political Prisoners at the Little Theatre Group in Delhi yesterday (21st > October). I was not present from the beginning of the meeting as I was > traveling from another city, but can vouch for what occurred from around > 4:30 pm till the time that the meeting wound up, well after 8:00 pm in the > evening. The meeting took place in the packed to capacity auditorium of the > Little Theatre Group on Copernicus Marg at the heart of New Delhi. Several > speakers, including the poet Varavara Rao, Prof. Mihir Bhattacharya, Sugata > Bhadra, Gursharan Singh, G.N.Saibaba, Professor Sheikh Showkat Hussain of > Srinagar University, the journalist Najeeb Mubaraki, a repesentative of the > Naga Peoples Movement for Human Rights and Justice, the writer Arundhati Roy > and myself spoke at the meeting. (I may be missing out some names, for which > I apologize, but I was not present for a part of the meeting, at the very > beginning) The climax of the meeting was a very substantive and significant > speech by Syed Ali Shah Geelani of the Hurriyat Conference (G), which spelt > out the vision of liberation (Azaadi) and Justice that Syed Ali Shah Geelani > held out before the assembled public, of which I will write in detail later > in this text. The artist known as ŒInder Salim¹ originally from Kashmir, > currently living in Delhi, made an intervention by inviting the assembled > people to take (with him) the stance of a masked stone pelter for a brief, > silent moment. Students from the Jawaharlal Nehru University sang a song, > ŒTu Zinda Hai to Zindagi Ki Jeet Mein Yakeen Kar¹ invoking the delights of > life and liberation. In conclusion, the meeting adopted a resolution, which > was read, on behalf of the Committee for the Release of Political Prisoners, > by Mihir Bhattacharya. The atmosphere, for the several hours that I was > present, was absolutely electric. The vast majority of the audience was warm > and appreciative of all the speakers. They were patient and respectful ­ > and despite grave provocation from a section that identified themselves as > ŒIndian patriots¹ and partisans of the ŒKashmir as indivisible part of > India¹ position - that repeatedly tried to interrupt the meeting and heckle > speakers, and on one occasion even tried to throw an object at the dias ­ > did not stoop to be provoked by these pathetic attempts at disruption of a > peaceful gathering. No provocative, secterian or hateful slogans were raised > by the majority of the people present. The only provocative posturing that I > witnessed was undertaken by the self-declared Indian patriots, who were not > stopped from having their say, but were requested simply not to disrupt the > proceedings. When their behaviour crossed the limits of public decency, they > were escorted out of the premises by representatives of the Delhi Police. > The Delhi Police, to their credit, did not act against the majority of the > audience, simply because the majority of the audience conducted themselves > in a completely civil and democratic manner. There was no attempt made at > intimidation of any kind. Professor SAR Geelani, who was conducting the > proceedings on behalf of the organizers ­ Committee for the Release of > Political Prisoners (CRPP) , repeatedly asked the people obstructing the > speakers to conduct themselves in a cultured and dignified manner. His pleas > were disregarded by the section of the crowd that let its ŒIndian > patriotism¹ get the better of its civilisation. When things got a little > too hot on occasion, the majority of the audience present simply drowned the > rude remarks and indignant posturing of the small minority of self styled > Indian patriots and champions of the ŒKashmir as indivisible part of India¹ > position ­ in wave after wave of cheerful but firm hand clapping. While > there as enthusiastic cheering and sloganeering from the majority of the > young men and women assembled at the gathering, there was no attempt while I > was present to give the slogans a religious or secterian colour. When Syed > Ali Shah Geelani said that the people of India and Kashmir are tied together > by the bonds of insaaniyat (humanity), when he quoted Gandhi, or spoke of > the necessity of conducting a non-violent struggle that was devoid of > hatred, or even when he said that he wished to see India rise as a great > power in the world, but as a power that felt no need to oppress others, he > was wholeheartedly and sincerely applauded, by the majority of people > present in the auditorium, regardless of whether or not they were > Kashmiri. Yesterday¹s meeting needs to be seen in the context of a momentum > of different events, which have included public meetings at Jantar Mantar, > meetings in the Jawaharlal Nehru Universtiy and Delhi University, film > screenings and talks, independently organized exhibitions on the history of > Jammu and Kashmir in educational institutions, photographic exhibitions on > the situation in Kashmir today that have taken place recently at the India > Habitat Centre, while Kashmir has reeled under the brutality of the > occupation that has resulted in a hundred and eleven deaths of unarmed or > stone pelting people, including children and teenagers. The momentum of > this process, which recognizes the urgency of the situation in Kashmir, > needs to be taken to its logical conclusion, until the world and the > international community sits up and takes notice of the true nature of the > hold of the Indian state on Kashmir and its people.We need many more such > meetings and gatherings in Delhi, and indeed in every large city in > India. It must be maintained so that even a Barack Hussein Obama, scheduled > to visit New Delhi in November, is compelled to recognize the fact that the > conduct of the Indian state in Kashmir, based as it is on brutal violence > and intimidation, based as it is on a disregard of every norm of the conduct > of civilized governance is unacceptable to the world. You simply cannot > claim to be the world¹s largest democracy and preside over the deaths of > 70,000 people in twenty years. You cannot claim to be judged as a democracy > and have laws like the Armed Forces Special Powers Act. You cannot claim to > be a democracy and have your police and paramilitaries beat children to > death openly on the streets, or rape and kill young women with impunity. A > state that does so is an oppressive, immoral, occupying power, and needs to > be resisted by every right thinking person in the world. The Indian state¹s > record in Kashmir over the past several decades is not only an oppression > visited on the people of Kashmir, it is an insult to the United Nations, to > the world community, and to every principle of justice, fairness and > democracy. It is an insult to all the peace loving and freedom loving > citizens of India that do not wish to see oppression carried out in their > name. This is the message that needs to go out, and is going out, not only > from the streets of Sringar, Baramulla and Kupwara, but also from > gatherings, such as yesterdays, from the heart of Delhi, the capital of > India. We, who are the friends of liberty and justice in India, need to > stand besides our Kashmiri brothers and sisters and say to the world that we > do not accept the lies put out by the Indian state and its apologists on > Kashmir. That is the true significance and import of the process in which > yesterday¹s meeting plays an important part. This process will not stop > until the world takes notice. The United Nations, and the broad democratic > currents as well as the political leaderships of Europe, the Americas, and > of every significant power in the world needs to know that hundreds of > people, young and old, intellectuals, writers, activists, lawyers, teachers > and others, Indians and Kashmiris can stand united, in Delhi, at the heart > of the Indian Republic¹s capital, in refusing to accept the continued > occupation of Jammu and Kashmir, by India and by Pakistan. That they believe > that it is only the people of Jammu and Kashmir who must decide for > themselves their own future destiny, peacefully, in a climate free of > coercion and intimidation. As Syed Ali Shah Geelani and Sheikh Showkat > Hussain said, all that they are asking for is the right to self > determination, promised by India, before the Untied Nations, to be freely > enacted through a plebiscite, in conditions of peace and liberty, without > the presence of armed force, for the inhabitants of every part of the > undivided state of Jammu and Kashmir ­ regardless of whether the results of > that plebiscite are in favour of India, Pakistan or an independent, united, > Jammu and Kashmir that can live in peace with all its neighbours in South > Asia. There was a great diversity of statements and styles present in > abundant splendour at yesterday¹s meeting. There was no way by which the > meeting could be reduced or simplified a single monotonous statement. Yes, > all the panelists, spoke unambiguously about the necessity for ending the > military occupation by the Indian state in Kashmir. This does not mean that > their statements and sentiments were a manufactured and processed > uniformity. The people on the panel may have significant political and > philosophical differences amongst themselves, they may even think > differently about what ŒAzaadi¹ might mean, but this was a sign, not of the > weakness, but of the strength and vitality of yesterday¹s > gathering. ŒAzaadi¹ if and when it comes, will not be the parting gift of an > exhausted colonial power, it will be the harvest of the fruits of the > imaginations and intelligences of millions of people, of their debates and > their conversations. What was extremely heart warming was the fact that each > speaker spoke of the fact that the voices of the people of Kashmir are no > longer alone and isolated, that there is a chorus of voices in different > parts of South Asia that echo and endorese their desire for liberation from > a brutal militarized occupation. From my notes of the time that I was there, > I recall that the writer Arundhati Roy, while endorsing the demand of Azaadi > for Kashmir, reminded the audience of the need for the people of Kashmir not > to be selective about justice and injustice, that they must find methods to > forge webs of solidarity with all the suffering and oppressed peoples of > India. She was heckled and rudely interrupted by a small group of Indian > nationalists in the audience, who repeatedly raised the situation of > Kashmiri Pandits, Arundhati Roy, when she was able to resume speaking, > spoke unambiguously about the fact that she considered the situation of > Kashmiri Pandits to be a tragedy. She was echoed in this sentiment later by > Syed Ali Shah Geelani who said that he personally stands guarantee for the > safety and security of all minorities, Hindu, Sikh, Buddhists, Christians > and others in a future free Kashmir. He implored the Pandits to return to > Kashmir, and said, that they are an integral part of Kashmiri society. He > spoke of the need for ensuring that a free Kashmir was a just Kashmir, and > that justice meant that the freedom, safety and security of all minorities, > of their property, their places of worship, their freedom of conscience be > given the utmost importance. He reminded the assembled people that > throughout these turbulent months, the people of Kashmir have continued to > be hospitable to Hindu pilgrims, have set up ŒLangars¹ (Kitchens) for them, > and have cared for them when they have fallen sick, despite being at the > receiving end of the violence of the Indian state. I spoke briefly, about > the fact that I was proud that so many of us had gathered in my city, Delhi, > putting aside the abstraction of our politically determined, state given > construct of citizenship, and standing, here, now, on the grounds of a > concrete human solidarity with the people of Kashmir. I spoke of the fact > that there are significant voices, even in the mainstream media who have > been compelled to recognize the urgency of the situation in Kashmir, by > the sheer determination of the youth of Kashmir to get the news of what is > happening in Kashmir out to the world. I spoke of the role played by > facebook sites like ŒAalaw¹ and blogs, and the fact that the people of India > and the world can no longer be kept in the dark by a pliant media, as > happened in 1989-90. I spoke of the ways in which the viral circulation of > leaked videos of the humiliation of Kashmiri youth on facebook pages and > online fora have successfully shown us what the reality of Kashmir is today. > I urged media professionals in the mainstream media to introspect and > reflect on the role that they may be compelled, against their own > professional ehtics, to play in the pyschological and propaganda war that > the Indian state is currently conducting. I spoke of my sense of shame and > remorse at the evasive and dissimulating role played by sections of the > mainstream media in India while reporting (or not reporting) atrocities that > make even the images from Abu Gharaib pale in comparison. I am ashamed to > say, that despite my respectful plea to the media to play a responsible role > in their reportage of Kashmir related matters, major channels like Times Now > and NDTV once again let the truth down in their reports on the days events. > NDTV saw it fit to simply report an incident of Œshoe throwing at SAS > Geelani¹. A shoe (or some other indeterminate object) was indeed thrown, but > not at Geelani. It landed on a bottle of water in front of another speaker, > while he was speaking. So let¹s at least set that record straight. Arnab > Goswami of Times Now, while conducting what he likes to call a Œdebate; on > the programme called ŒNews Hour¹ (neither News, nor just an Hour) > repeatedly uttered hysterical untruths, such as the presumption that ŒNo > State permits the advocacy of secession and self determination¹ and that a > meeting such as the one I participated in yesterday, were it to take place, > say, in the United States, would immediately lead to all speakers present > (including, presumably, myself) in being imprisoned on charges of sedition. > I have to inform my readers here, that on both counts, Arnab Goswami is > wrong. Seriously wrong. Either he is a misinformed idiot. Or he knows that > he is wrong, and is lying to his public through his teeth. We can choose to > be generous about how he would interpret his motives, and assume he is > simply a fool. Goswami, consequently demanded to know why we were not > immediately imprisoned under section 124 of the Indian penal code. Arnab > Goswami needs to be reminded, that in United States law, the provisions of > the Sedition Act are applicable only in times when the country is in a > declared state of war. And therefore his analogy does not apply, as I am not > aware that the Indian republic is currently in a declared state of war, as > per international law, (unless Arnab Goswami has lost his marbles to the > extent that he confuses the shadow boxing that he does on television with a > war declared by a state under international law). That, furthermore, the > provisions of the US Sedition Law have been declared substantially void by > the US Supreme Court ruling in the Brandenberg vs. Ohio (1969) judgement, > and of course, by the US Supreme court guaranteeing the primacy of free > speech, including Œseditious¹ speech, including the burning of the United > States flag, under the provisions of the first amendment to the US > constitution. There have been repeated attempts made to pass a law that would > make Œflag burning¹ an offence under US Law. Fortunately, (for liberty and > free speech) as of now, these attempts have not come to pass, and > currently, under US Law it is perfectly legal to advocate self- > determination and secwssion, if done peacefully, even to the extent of > burning or destroying or descerating symbols of state authority like the > national flag. Furthermore several constiutions, such as the constitutions > of Canada, Ethipopia, Austria and France, implicitly or explicitly, provide > for a legal expression of right to self determination, provided it is > exercised in a peaceful and democratic manner, as part of the freedom of > expression principle. But the point that needs to be made is larger than > whether or not Arnab Goswami is a fool and a charlatan. Yesterday¹s meeting > was a historic opportunity for his channel, and indeed for all of the > Indian mainstream media, to report and take cognizance of the fact that > there is a significant section of Indian public opinion that is actually in > favour of ŒAzaadi¹ in Kashmir. I am not suggesting that this section > constitutes an overwhelming majority at present (that might change) but, > that it does exist, and that it presents, cogent, precise arguments, that > cannot be dismissed, (as is being done by Times Now and its ilk) by invoking > the spectre of Œterrorism¹. There is hardly any Œterrorism¹ in Kashmir today > (if we don¹t count the Indian state and its terror) . The 111 people who > have died in the past months, have not died at the hands of non-state > insurgents, they have died, unarmed, facing the bullets of the Indian state. > The movement for Azaadi in Kashmir has left the culture of the gun and the > grenade behind. It fights today without weapons, armed only with courage. If > there is a terrorist in Kashmir today, he wears the uniform of the forces of > the Indian state, and carries the weapons supplied by the arsenal of the > Indian state. To discount the voices that rise in dissent against this > reality as Œterrorist sympathizers¹ as Arnab Goswami has done on his channel > is to insult reality. Syed Ali Shah Geelani spoke of the bonds of insaaniyat > that tie the peoples of Kashmir and India yesterday. I heard him say this. I > was barely five feet away from him. I heard him speak of his regard and > respect for the minorities in Jammu and Kashmir. I do not agree with much > of what Geelani Saheb represents politically, or ideologically, but I have > no hesitation in saying that what he said yesterday, was surprising for its > gentleness, for its consideration, for its moderation, even for its > liberality and open heartedness. This should have been big news. That Syed > Ali Shah Geelani said that he wants to see a strong and resurgent India. I > heard him say this. And was this reported by anyone? NO. Was it reported > that he was cheered when he said this ? NO. Was it reported that no one had > any thing angry to say against the struggling peoples of India? NO. Was it > reported that SAS Geelani expilicity said that he is NOT against dialogue, > provided that the five point formula put forward by him (none of whose > provisions ­ 1. acceptance of the disputed nature of the territory of Jammu > and Kashmir, 2. repeal of AFSPA and other black laws, 3. release of > political detenues and prisoners, 4. withdrawal of the disproportionate > presence of the armed forces and 5. punishment to those gulty of taking life > in the past few months ­ require the government of India to think Œoutside¹ > the framework of the Indian Constitution) are accepted as the basis of the > dialogue? NO. Don¹t you think that it makes BIG news that the tallest > separatist leader in Jammu and Kashmir actually, in a moderate voice, spells > out, in Delhi, the fundamental basis of a considered dialogue with the > Indian state, while offering it a chance to do so on bases that are > absolutely reasonable and sound, and honourable to all concerned? Do you not > think that a responsible media organization would consider this a scoop, a > major news stor? But that is not what happened. Instead, Times Now, (and I > am waiting for the morning newspapers to see how far this muck has spread) > chose to focus on the deliberately staged disruption of a handful of agent > provocateurs, our familiar posse of self styled patriotic champions of the > continued occupation of Kashmir, who posed for the camera, hyperventilated, > and occupied, perhaps no more than five percent of the attention of several > patient hours. If you saw the news reports on Times Now¹s ŒNEWSHOUR¹ > programme, you would have thought that all of what happened was their > presence as a Œprotest¹ against the meeting. As someone who was present > through much of this, I am totally, utterly aghast that a lie of such > magnificient proportions could be dished out with such ease. I am aghast > that Aditya Raj Kaul who was one of the panel invited by Arnab Goswami to > the Times Now Newshour show could lie with a straight face by saying that > there was no attempt made to Œdisrupt¹ the meeting by those who were there > to represent his point of view. Someday, I hope that all of these people, the > Arnab Goswamis of the world, find reason to repent for continuing to keep > the people of India and Kashmir in the dark. They had better think hard, > because the day when they will have cause to repent, is not far. Azaadi will > come to Kashmir, and with it, a glimmer of Azaadi will be the share of > those people in India who stood by their Kashmiri friends, in their darkest > hour.Going by what I witnessed yesterday, there will be many such people, so > Arnab Goswami and his ilk had better start practicing how to say sorry, > several hundred times a > day. best, Shuddha --------------------------------------------- Shudd > habrata Sengupta _________________________________________ reader-list: an > open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To > subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Fri Oct 22 16:54:40 2010 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 16:54:40 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Terrorist Maoist Sympathizer Arundhati Roy promotes secession In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Shuddha , The likes with whom you shared the stage talks volumes of your character . Pawan On 10/22/10, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > This is a preposterous lie, and the author of the so called 'report' > in the Pioneer can be sued for libel. I can vouch for this as i was > there. Arundhati's speech was recorded, and anyone who is interested > can have access to the recording. > > Arundhati Roy in fact said - that "the one slogan that she heard > sometimes in Kashmir that deeply saddened her was 'Bhookha Nanga > Hindustan, Jaan se Pyaara Pakistan'. (India is Naked and Hungrly, > Pakistan is dearer to us than Life'). > > She categorically voiced her opposition to such a slogan, in fact she > invoked it in order to strongly condemn such a sentiment, and went on > to say that the people of Kashmir must realize that it is the > 'bhookha - nanga' , the naked and the hungry, the poor and the > oppressed of India, who people in Kashmir must stand in solidarity > with. This was enthusiastically applauded. She called upon the > struggling people of Kashmir NOT to be selective in their choice of > injustices to struggle against. She called for a solidarity between > struggles for justice in Kashmir, and in India, and the world. To > suggest that she gave a call for 'Azadi' from 'bhookha nanga' India, > is to twist her words, and to say the virtually the very opposite of > what she meant - which was a joining of hands of the struggles of the > working poor for justice in India and the struggles for liberty in > Kashmir. > > Aditya Raj Kaul, by offering up this disinformation, has once again > proved his true character on this list. I think this is a matter of > shame, and should be condemned by all. It is one thing to be critical > of a viewpoint, which everyone has a right to be, and it is quite > another to disinform and lie. > > best > > Shuddha > > > > On 22-Oct-10, at 1:44 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > >> *Arundhati promotes secession* >> * >> October 22, 2010* >> >> *Deepak K Jha | New Delhi* >> * >> The Pioneer >> >> Link - http://www.dailypioneer.com/291392/Arundhati-promotes- >> secession.html >> * >> *Says ‘Kashmir should get Azadi from bhookhe-nange Hindustan’* >> >> Kashmir should get Azadi from bhookhe-nange Hindustan,” said >> Arundhati Roy >> at a seminar where the Maoists hosted Kashmir secessionist leader >> Syed Ali >> Shah Geelani, which witnessed large scale protests by Kashmiri >> Pandits. A >> large number of protesters were detained at the behest of >> Parliament House >> attack accused SAR Gilani, who moderated the seminar promoting >> secession in >> the heart of the national Capital on Thursday. >> >> The seminar was disrupted many a time when author-activist >> Arundhati Roy, a >> known Maoist sympathiser, openly preached secession while >> expressing her >> views and urging the audience comprising Kashmiri youth, students >> from AMU >> and also from DU to stand up and fight for the cause of a separate >> Kashmir >> and to get a fair play in the name of “Idea of Justice”. >> >> “India needs Azadi from Kashmir and Kashmir from India. It is a >> good debate >> that has started. We must deepen this conversation and am happy >> that young >> people are getting involved for this cause which is their future. >> Indian >> Government is a hollow super power and I disassociate with it,” Roy >> said >> amid great applause from separatists. “Earlier we used to talk >> about our >> head held high and now we lay prostrate to the US,” she added. >> Referring to >> one of her earlier writings, Roy mentioned that Kashmiris have to >> decide >> whether they want to be with or get separated from “bhookhe-nange >> Hindustan >> where more than 830 million people live on Rs 20 per day only”. >> >> Espousing the separatist cause, Roy also said that in the early 90s >> India >> opened two gates - one for the Babri Masjid issue and the other for >> the >> economy. “We ushered in two kinds of totalitarianism. One the Hindu >> totalitarians and the other economic totalitarian,” she said. >> >> The convention on ‘Azadi — The Only Way’ organised by Committee for >> the >> Release of Political Prisoners (CRPP), was being attended by a >> number of >> sympathisers of Kashmiri separatists and Naxalites. The moment Geelani >> arrived to speak, the protesters numbering around 70 shouted >> slogans asking >> him to leave along with those demanding separate Kashmir. Amid >> pandemonium >> inside the LTG Auditorium, the protesters shouted slogans like >> ‘Bharat Mata >> Ki Jai’ and ‘Vande Mataram’ several times when various speakers >> expressed >> their views and opinions driving towards a separate Kashmir. >> >> At least 50 of the protesters, including those from Roots to >> Kashmir and >> Panun Kashmir were detained by the police and released late in the >> evening. >> At the time of the protest, SAR Geelani, a lecturer in Delhi >> University who >> was accused in the Parliament attack case but later set free, was >> speaking >> on the topic. Besides Geelani, other participants in the seminar >> included >> writer and activist Arundhati Roy, senior journalist Najeeb Mubaraki, >> Telangana activist Varvara Rao, president of the CRPP Gursharan Singh >> (represented by his daughter due to Singh’s ill health), media critic >> Shuddabrata Sengupta, and separatists from Manipur and Nagaland in the >> six-hour-long programme. >> >> “This is atrocious. It is happening right in the Capital of the >> country when >> a few people are talking to break the secular ethos of the country. >> We stand >> for united India. I do not know why the country’s administration is >> pampering them in the name of Islam. Kashmir belongs to all, >> including the >> Kashmiri Pandits and we will do all to safeguard that interest,” >> said Aditya >> Raj Kaul, one of the protesters who led a group of young students and >> professionals condemning the seminar called and moderated by Gilani >> and a >> group of Naxal sympathisers. >> >> Emotions erupted and tempers ran high amid a group of Kashmiri >> Pandits there >> to listen to the opinion when Roy said that: “I am also aware of >> the stories >> about Kashmiri Pandits. I must tell you that Panun Kashmir is a false >> group”. Taken aback by this statement, 65-year-old Nancy Kaul stood >> up and >> questioned the sanctity of Roy’s statement. Kaul was joined by a >> few others >> echoing the sentiments of Kashmiri Pandits and other displaced >> persons from >> Jammu and Kashmir. Nancy was also attacked by a young person, >> probably from >> the north-east who also misbehaved with her and threw the paper >> material >> Kaul was carrying with her. “Jis thali mein kha rahey hain usi >> thali eein >> ched kar rahey hain yain yes log,” Kaul and others shouted pointing >> towards >> Roy and other speakers. The police had to be called again to pacify >> the >> small group of protesters and a large group of members advocating >> Azadi. >> >> While urging Kashmiris to boycott interlocutors, Syed Ali Shah Geelani >> rejected the eight-point agenda rolled out by the Centre for >> defusing crisis >> in the Valley. Though saying that the people of Kashmir are not >> against any >> dialogue, the Hurriyat leader said the talks should be on the core >> issue and >> Pakistan should also be involved in the discussions. “The dialogue >> should >> not be bilateral. India, Pakistan and representatives of people of >> Jammu and >> Kashmir should sit together with the reference of sacrifices made by >> Kashmiris during the last 63 years. Indian Government has to accept >> our >> five-point agenda, then only we will initiate talks with >> interlocutors, >> otherwise I ask Kashmiris to boycott them,” said the separatist >> leader. >> >> The hardline leader added that since 1947, 150 such dialogues have >> been held >> but without any result, we will not participate in any discussions >> until our >> five-point agenda is accepted by India. “Our five points are -- >> first Indian >> security forces should be withdrawn from J&K under UN supervision. >> Political >> prisoners be released, cases should be registered against the >> killers of 111 >> innocent people, who had been killed during the last four months. >> Remember, >> we are not against Indian or India, we want the rights to >> self-determination,” said Geelani. >> >> SAR Geelani, who moderated the session, said the demand of Kashmir >> Azadi not >> only meant the Kashmir Valley but the entire Jammu and Kashmir, >> Ladakh, >> Muzzafarabad, Baltistan and Mirpur. >> >> Dal Khalsa leader Kanwar Pal Singh used the occasion to criticise the >> Government, including Prime Minister Manmohan whom he labeled is >> anti-Sikh. >> He also took the opportunity to criticise the Indian judiciary and the >> audience yelled “Shame Shame India, Shame Shame Courts Here”. “The >> Supreme >> Court and High Courts are for the bahu-betis only. What a ridiculous >> judgement was given by the Supreme Court regarding the Parliament >> attack >> case and observations made on Afzal Guru. The recent Ayodhya case is a >> stupid judgement in which facts were not taken into account but >> only faith >> ka khaas khayal rakha gaya.” >> >> The Naga and Manipuri leaders said that like Manipur and Nagaland, >> Kashmir >> was also never part of India. “To be a part during freedom struggle >> does not >> mean that we express solidarity to be united with India. We also need >> freedom as we were free before 1947. What is the problem to India >> when we >> say we want freedom,” said a speaker from Naga People’s Movement >> for Human >> Rights and Justice. >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Fri Oct 22 16:57:23 2010 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 16:57:23 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Garden of Solitude - A Novel about Kashmir (Political Turmoil, Militancy, Migration of Pandits and Exile) In-Reply-To: References: <229292.13010.qm@web51904.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <884351.3420.qm@web55708.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <5F288F16-655C-4D36-A879-DA9CA20CCAC1@sarai.net> Message-ID: Who is the author ? On 10/22/10, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > I hope this book finally clears some misconceptions on Kashmir among few > forum members who are almost ready to be 'Suicide Squads' for likes of Syed > Ali Shah Geelani. > > On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 2:11 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta > wrote: > >> Dear Pooja, >> >> Thanks for sending this on. will look forward to reading it. >> >> best regards >> >> Shuddha >> >> >> On 22-Oct-10, at 2:13 PM, pooja shali wrote: >> >> *The Garden of Solitude - A Novel about Kashmir* >>> >>> (Political Turmoil, Militancy, Migration of Pandits and Exile) >>> >>> A novel about loss, longing and separation. >>> >>> *A power packed fiction and coming-of-age saga on Kashmir* - Hindustan >>> Times >>> >>> *Coming soon - Rupa and Co.* >>> *From the Blurb:* >>> >>> *Kashmir 1990: The vortex of armed insurgency and political turmoil. >>> Protests, military crackdowns, deaths and devastation. Suspicion, >>> mistrust >>> and betrayal divide the Muslims and the Pandits.* >>> *Exodus of hundreds of thousands of Pandits from their homeland is >>> unmourned >>> by the world. >>> *............. >>> Story of Sridar, a Kashmiri Pandit boy, whose family flees Kashmir >>> reluctantly, and is forced to live in exile, battling deprivation, >>> alienation and dementia. >>> Years later, Sridar’s odyssey takes him back to the migrant camps and >>> then >>> to his homeland in search of stories that are on the verge of being >>> forgotten by a generation; stories about identity and ancestry. Haunted >>> by >>> his past, he hopes to find answers to the questions that define him. >>> ............ >>> >>> >>> Join the facebook page for updates on the release: >>> >>> http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Garden-of-Solitude-A-Novel/159060100771166?ref=sgm >>> Recent News: >>> http://www.asiawrites.org/2010/10/siddhartha-gigoos-debut-english.html >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >> >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >> Raqs Media Collective >> shuddha at sarai.net >> www.sarai.net >> www.raqsmediacollective.net >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Fri Oct 22 17:59:44 2010 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 17:59:44 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?iso-8859-1?q?Azadi=3A_The_Only_Way_=AD_Report_fro?= =?iso-8859-1?q?m_a_Turbulent_Few_Hours_in_Delhi?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Awaiting a 3000 + Lines explanation from Mr Sengupta On 10/22/10, SJabbar wrote: > Dear Shuddha, > > I've read with interest your report on the meeting at the LTG and am amazed > that you have aligned yourself with and have so wholeheartedly endorsed the > reactionary politics of SAS Geelani. Whatever he may have said for the > benefit of audiences in New Delhi he has always advocated Kashmir's > accession to Pakistan based on the 2-nation theory. He has made this > unambiguously clear in his book on the Kashmir issue: 'Nava-e-Hurriyat'. He > has reiterated this position as late as Sept 25 in an interview to Seema > Mustafa of News X where he clearly states the independence option is not > viable. He has never described the Kashmiri movement as a political struggle > but a jihad and had in 1992 even written to the Afghan Mujahideen to save > Kashmir from 'Hindu India.' > > And what of the votaries of independence and their assassination by the > Hizb, the armed wing of the Jamat e-Isami of which Geelani was a member > until his expulsion in 2003? What is SAS Geelani's position on that? If he > has ever condemned it I should be grateful if someone were to send me a > reference. > > That a man who has all his life scorned the notion of an independent Kashmir > should now detail the character and complexion of such a state including its > attitude to the sale and consumption of alcohol is truly funny, that he > should quote Gandhi, even funnier (he was one of the first to castigate > Yasin Malik's Gandhian methods of fasting as 'un-Islamic'.) That he should > call for the return of the Pandits without once condemning their killings or > the killings of Communists and National Conference workers in Kashmir is > like Advani speaking about the prosperity of Muslims in Gujarat. > > You say Syed Ali Shah says "explicitly" he is not against dialogue, but you > don't stop to question the placing of preconditions to a dialogue. Geelani > has scorned talks with Delhi for years. He has abused those who have talked > to N Delhi as traitors. The HM has assassinated those who dared to talk to > N Delhi, whether it was Moulvi Farooq, Qazi Nissar, and even its own senior > commanders like Abdul Majid Dar (they didn't even spare his wife Dr. > Shameema who was shot at and grievously injured several years after her > husband's murder.) > > Who places preconditions and then says let's have unconditional talks? What > would you say if New Delhi were to say, we will only speak to SASG if he > stops describing Kashmir as disputed territory or for that matter we will > not speak to Hurriyat (M) and JKLF until they give up their stand on > independent Kashmir? All of us would think New Delhi as being supremely > unreasonable to expect a negotiation to begin by insisting the other party > give up its core premise. > > And what is Geelani's FIRST precondition? That India accept that J&K is > disputed territory. For India to accept that (esp. On SASG's goading) would > mean, in diplomatese, to forgo its position on the Simla Agreement and all > other agreements reached with Pakistan post 1972 and return to 1948 and the > 'dispute' that was framed in the UN Resolutions, meaning, tossing the ball > back into the UN and set itself up to arbitration from the international > community. Why should it do that when both parties to the dispute agreed to > settle the issue bilaterally? SAS Geelani knows that well enough and is > content having tossed his 5 points into the arena and say, well I never said > I wouldn't talk. > > Best > sj > > > On 22/10/10 3:51 AM, "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" wrote: > >> (Apologies for Cross Posting on Kafila.org) > > Dear Friends, > > I was present and >> speaking a few hours ago at a meeting titled > ŒAzadi: The Only Way¹ on the >> situation in Jammu and Kashmir, > organized by the Committee for the Release >> of Political Prisoners at > the Little Theatre Group in Delhi yesterday (21st >> October). I was not > present from the beginning of the meeting as I was >> traveling from > another city, but can vouch for what occurred from around >> 4:30 pm > till the time that the meeting wound up, well after 8:00 pm in the >> > evening. > > The meeting took place in the packed to capacity auditorium of the >> > Little Theatre Group on Copernicus Marg at the heart of New Delhi. > Several >> speakers, including the poet Varavara Rao, Prof. Mihir > Bhattacharya, Sugata >> Bhadra, Gursharan Singh, G.N.Saibaba, Professor > Sheikh Showkat Hussain of >> Srinagar University, the journalist Najeeb > Mubaraki, a repesentative of the >> Naga Peoples Movement for Human > Rights and Justice, the writer Arundhati Roy >> and myself spoke at the > meeting. (I may be missing out some names, for which >> I apologize, but > I was not present for a part of the meeting, at the very >> beginning) > The climax of the meeting was a very substantive and significant >> > speech by Syed Ali Shah Geelani of the Hurriyat Conference (G), which > spelt >> out the vision of liberation (Azaadi) and Justice that Syed Ali > Shah Geelani >> held out before the assembled public, of which I will > write in detail later >> in this text. > > The artist known as ŒInder Salim¹ originally from Kashmir, >> currently > living in Delhi, made an intervention by inviting the assembled >> > people to take (with him) the stance of a masked stone pelter for a > brief, >> silent moment. Students from the Jawaharlal Nehru University > sang a song, >> ŒTu Zinda Hai to Zindagi Ki Jeet Mein Yakeen Kar¹ > invoking the delights of >> life and liberation. In conclusion, the > meeting adopted a resolution, which >> was read, on behalf of the > Committee for the Release of Political Prisoners, >> by Mihir Bhattacharya. > > The atmosphere, for the several hours that I was >> present, was > absolutely electric. The vast majority of the audience was warm >> and > appreciative of all the speakers. They were patient and respectful ­ >> > and despite grave provocation from a section that identified > themselves as >> ŒIndian patriots¹ and partisans of the ŒKashmir as > indivisible part of >> India¹ position - that repeatedly tried to > interrupt the meeting and heckle >> speakers, and on one occasion even > tried to throw an object at the dias ­ >> did not stoop to be provoked > by these pathetic attempts at disruption of a >> peaceful gathering. > > No provocative, secterian or hateful slogans were raised >> by the > majority of the people present. The only provocative posturing that I >> > witnessed was undertaken by the self-declared Indian patriots, who > were not >> stopped from having their say, but were requested simply not > to disrupt the >> proceedings. > > When their behaviour crossed the limits of public decency, they >> were > escorted out of the premises by representatives of the Delhi Police. >> > The Delhi Police, to their credit, did not act against the majority > of the >> audience, simply because the majority of the audience > conducted themselves >> in a completely civil and democratic manner. > > There was no attempt made at >> intimidation of any kind. Professor SAR > Geelani, who was conducting the >> proceedings on behalf of the > organizers ­ Committee for the Release of >> Political Prisoners > (CRPP) , repeatedly asked the people obstructing the >> speakers to > conduct themselves in a cultured and dignified manner. His pleas >> were > disregarded by the section of the crowd that let its ŒIndian >> > patriotism¹ get the better of its civilisation. When things got a > little >> too hot on occasion, the majority of the audience present > simply drowned the >> rude remarks and indignant posturing of the small > minority of self styled >> Indian patriots and champions of the ŒKashmir > as indivisible part of India¹ >> position ­ in wave after wave of > cheerful but firm hand clapping. > > While >> there as enthusiastic cheering and sloganeering from the > majority of the >> young men and women assembled at the gathering, there > was no attempt while I >> was present to give the slogans a religious or > secterian colour. When Syed >> Ali Shah Geelani said that the people of > India and Kashmir are tied together >> by the bonds of insaaniyat > (humanity), when he quoted Gandhi, or spoke of >> the necessity of > conducting a non-violent struggle that was devoid of >> hatred, or even > when he said that he wished to see India rise as a great >> power in the > world, but as a power that felt no need to oppress others, he >> was > wholeheartedly and sincerely applauded, by the majority of people >> > present in the auditorium, regardless of whether or not they were >> > Kashmiri. > > Yesterday¹s meeting needs to be seen in the context of a momentum >> of > different events, which have included public meetings at Jantar > Mantar, >> meetings in the Jawaharlal Nehru Universtiy and Delhi > University, film >> screenings and talks, independently organized > exhibitions on the history of >> Jammu and Kashmir in educational > institutions, photographic exhibitions on >> the situation in Kashmir > today that have taken place recently at the India >> Habitat Centre, > while Kashmir has reeled under the brutality of the >> occupation that > has resulted in a hundred and eleven deaths of unarmed or >> stone > pelting people, including children and teenagers. The momentum of >> > this process, which recognizes the urgency of the situation in > Kashmir, >> needs to be taken to its logical conclusion, until the world > and the >> international community sits up and takes notice of the true > nature of the >> hold of the Indian state on Kashmir and its people.We > need many more such >> meetings and gatherings in Delhi, and indeed in > every large city in >> India. > > It must be maintained so that even a Barack Hussein Obama, scheduled >> > to visit New Delhi in November, is compelled to recognize the fact > that the >> conduct of the Indian state in Kashmir, based as it is on > brutal violence >> and intimidation, based as it is on a disregard of > every norm of the conduct >> of civilized governance is unacceptable to > the world. You simply cannot >> claim to be the world¹s largest > democracy and preside over the deaths of >> 70,000 people in twenty > years. You cannot claim to be judged as a democracy >> and have laws > like the Armed Forces Special Powers Act. You cannot claim to >> be a > democracy and have your police and paramilitaries beat children to >> > death openly on the streets, or rape and kill young women with > impunity. A >> state that does so is an oppressive, immoral, occupying > power, and needs to >> be resisted by every right thinking person in the > world. The Indian state¹s >> record in Kashmir over the past several > decades is not only an oppression >> visited on the people of Kashmir, > it is an insult to the United Nations, to >> the world community, and to > every principle of justice, fairness and >> democracy. It is an insult > to all the peace loving and freedom loving >> citizens of India that do > not wish to see oppression carried out in their >> name. > > This is the message that needs to go out, and is going out, not only >> > from the streets of Sringar, Baramulla and Kupwara, but also from >> > gatherings, such as yesterdays, from the heart of Delhi, the capital > of >> India. We, who are the friends of liberty and justice in India, > need to >> stand besides our Kashmiri brothers and sisters and say to > the world that we >> do not accept the lies put out by the Indian state > and its apologists on >> Kashmir. That is the true significance and > import of the process in which >> yesterday¹s meeting plays an important > part. This process will not stop >> until the world takes notice. The > United Nations, and the broad democratic >> currents as well as the > political leaderships of Europe, the Americas, and >> of every > significant power in the world needs to know that hundreds of >> people, > young and old, intellectuals, writers, activists, lawyers, teachers >> > and others, Indians and Kashmiris can stand united, in Delhi, at the > heart >> of the Indian Republic¹s capital, in refusing to accept the > continued >> occupation of Jammu and Kashmir, by India and by Pakistan. > That they believe >> that it is only the people of Jammu and Kashmir who > must decide for >> themselves their own future destiny, peacefully, in a > climate free of >> coercion and intimidation. > > As Syed Ali Shah Geelani and Sheikh Showkat >> Hussain said, all that > they are asking for is the right to self >> determination, promised by > India, before the Untied Nations, to be freely >> enacted through a > plebiscite, in conditions of peace and liberty, without >> the presence > of armed force, for the inhabitants of every part of the >> undivided > state of Jammu and Kashmir ­ regardless of whether the results of >> > that plebiscite are in favour of India, Pakistan or an independent, > united, >> Jammu and Kashmir that can live in peace with all its > neighbours in South >> Asia. > > There was a great diversity of statements and styles present in >> > abundant splendour at yesterday¹s meeting. There was no way by which > the >> meeting could be reduced or simplified a single monotonous > statement. Yes, >> all the panelists, spoke unambiguously about the > necessity for ending the >> military occupation by the Indian state in > Kashmir. This does not mean that >> their statements and sentiments were > a manufactured and processed >> uniformity. The people on the panel may > have significant political and >> philosophical differences amongst > themselves, they may even think >> differently about what ŒAzaadi¹ might > mean, but this was a sign, not of the >> weakness, but of the strength > and vitality of yesterday¹s >> gathering. > > ŒAzaadi¹ if and when it comes, will not be the parting gift of an >> > exhausted colonial power, it will be the harvest of the fruits of the >> > imaginations and intelligences of millions of people, of their > debates and >> their conversations. > > What was extremely heart warming was the fact that each >> speaker spoke > of the fact that the voices of the people of Kashmir are no >> longer > alone and isolated, that there is a chorus of voices in different >> > parts of South Asia that echo and endorese their desire for > liberation from >> a brutal militarized occupation. From my notes of the > time that I was there, >> I recall that the writer Arundhati Roy, while > endorsing the demand of Azaadi >> for Kashmir, reminded the audience of > the need for the people of Kashmir not >> to be selective about justice > and injustice, that they must find methods to >> forge webs of > solidarity with all the suffering and oppressed peoples of >> India. She > was heckled and rudely interrupted by a small group of Indian >> > nationalists in the audience, who repeatedly raised the situation of >> > Kashmiri Pandits, Arundhati Roy, when she was able to resume > speaking, >> spoke unambiguously about the fact that she considered the > situation of >> Kashmiri Pandits to be a tragedy. She was echoed in this > sentiment later by >> Syed Ali Shah Geelani who said that he personally > stands guarantee for the >> safety and security of all minorities, > Hindu, Sikh, Buddhists, Christians >> and others in a future free > Kashmir. He implored the Pandits to return to >> Kashmir, and said, that > they are an integral part of Kashmiri society. He >> spoke of the need > for ensuring that a free Kashmir was a just Kashmir, and >> that justice > meant that the freedom, safety and security of all minorities, >> of > their property, their places of worship, their freedom of conscience > be >> given the utmost importance. He reminded the assembled people that >> > throughout these turbulent months, the people of Kashmir have > continued to >> be hospitable to Hindu pilgrims, have set up > ŒLangars¹ (Kitchens) for them, >> and have cared for them when they have > fallen sick, despite being at the >> receiving end of the violence of > the Indian state. > > I spoke briefly, about >> the fact that I was proud that so many of us > had gathered in my city, Delhi, >> putting aside the abstraction of our > politically determined, state given >> construct of citizenship, and > standing, here, now, on the grounds of a >> concrete human solidarity > with the people of Kashmir. I spoke of the fact >> that there are > significant voices, even in the mainstream media who have >> been > compelled to recognize the urgency of the situation in Kashmir, by >> > the sheer determination of the youth of Kashmir to get the news of > what is >> happening in Kashmir out to the world. I spoke of the role > played by >> facebook sites like ŒAalaw¹ and blogs, and the fact that > the people of India >> and the world can no longer be kept in the dark > by a pliant media, as >> happened in 1989-90. I spoke of the ways in > which the viral circulation of >> leaked videos of the humiliation of > Kashmiri youth on facebook pages and >> online fora have successfully > shown us what the reality of Kashmir is today. >> I urged media > professionals in the mainstream media to introspect and >> reflect on > the role that they may be compelled, against their own >> professional > ehtics, to play in the pyschological and propaganda war that >> the > Indian state is currently conducting. I spoke of my sense of shame > and >> remorse at the evasive and dissimulating role played by sections > of the >> mainstream media in India while reporting (or not reporting) > atrocities that >> make even the images from Abu Gharaib pale in > comparison. > > I am ashamed to >> say, that despite my respectful plea to the media to > play a responsible role >> in their reportage of Kashmir related > matters, major channels like Times Now >> and NDTV once again let the > truth down in their reports on the days events. >> NDTV saw it fit to > simply report > > an incident of Œshoe throwing at SAS >> Geelani¹. A shoe (or some other > indeterminate object) was indeed thrown, but >> not at Geelani. It > landed on a bottle of water in front of another speaker, >> while he was > speaking. So let¹s at least set that record straight. Arnab >> Goswami > of Times Now, while conducting what he likes to call a Œdebate; on >> > the programme called ŒNews Hour¹ (neither News, nor just an Hour) >> > repeatedly uttered hysterical untruths, such as the presumption that > ŒNo >> State permits the advocacy of secession and self determination¹ > and that a >> meeting such as the one I participated in yesterday, were > it to take place, >> say, in the United States, would immediately lead > to all speakers present >> (including, presumably, myself) in being > imprisoned on charges of sedition. >> I have to inform my readers here, > that on both counts, Arnab Goswami is >> wrong. Seriously wrong. Either > he is a misinformed idiot. Or he knows that >> he is wrong, and is lying > to his public through his teeth. We can choose to >> be generous about > how he would interpret his motives, and assume he is >> simply a fool. > > Goswami, consequently demanded to know why we were not >> immediately > imprisoned under section 124 of the Indian penal code. Arnab >> Goswami > needs to be reminded, that in United States law, the provisions of >> > the Sedition Act are applicable only in times when the country is in > a >> declared state of war. And therefore his analogy does not apply, as > I am not >> aware that the Indian republic is currently in a declared > state of war, as >> per international law, (unless Arnab Goswami has > lost his marbles to the >> extent that he confuses the shadow boxing > that he does on television with a >> war declared by a state under > international law). That, furthermore, the >> provisions of the US > Sedition Law have been declared substantially void by >> the US Supreme > Court ruling in the Brandenberg vs. Ohio (1969) judgement, >> and of > course, by the US Supreme court guaranteeing the primacy of free >> > speech, including Œseditious¹ speech, including the burning of the > United >> States flag, under the provisions of the first amendment to > the US >> constitution. > > There have been repeated attempts made to pass a law that would >> make > Œflag burning¹ an offence under US Law. Fortunately, (for liberty and >> > free speech) as of now, these attempts have not come to pass, and >> > currently, under US Law it is perfectly legal to advocate self- >> > determination and secwssion, if done peacefully, even to the extent > of >> burning or destroying or descerating symbols of state authority > like the >> national flag. Furthermore several constiutions, such as the > constitutions >> of Canada, Ethipopia, Austria and France, implicitly or > explicitly, provide >> for a legal expression of right to self > determination, provided it is >> exercised in a peaceful and democratic > manner, as part of the freedom of >> expression principle. > > But the point that needs to be made is larger than >> whether or not > Arnab Goswami is a fool and a charlatan. Yesterday¹s meeting >> was a > historic opportunity for his channel, and indeed for all of the >> > Indian mainstream media, to report and take cognizance of the fact > that >> there is a significant section of Indian public opinion that is > actually in >> favour of ŒAzaadi¹ in Kashmir. I am not suggesting that > this section >> constitutes an overwhelming majority at present (that > might change) but, >> that it does exist, and that it presents, cogent, > precise arguments, that >> cannot be dismissed, (as is being done by > Times Now and its ilk) by invoking >> the spectre of Œterrorism¹. There > is hardly any Œterrorism¹ in Kashmir today >> (if we don¹t count the > Indian state and its terror) . The 111 people who >> have died in the > past months, have not died at the hands of non-state >> insurgents, they > have died, unarmed, facing the bullets of the Indian state. >> The > movement for Azaadi in Kashmir has left the culture of the gun and > the >> grenade behind. It fights today without weapons, armed only with > courage. If >> there is a terrorist in Kashmir today, he wears the > uniform of the forces of >> the Indian state, and carries the weapons > supplied by the arsenal of the >> Indian state. To discount the voices > that rise in dissent against this >> reality as Œterrorist sympathizers¹ > as Arnab Goswami has done on his channel >> is to insult reality. > > Syed Ali Shah Geelani spoke of the bonds of insaaniyat >> that tie the > peoples of Kashmir and India yesterday. I heard him say this. I >> was > barely five feet away from him. I heard him speak of his regard and >> > respect for the minorities in Jammu and Kashmir. I do not agree with > much >> of what Geelani Saheb represents politically, or ideologically, > but I have >> no hesitation in saying that what he said yesterday, was > surprising for its >> gentleness, for its consideration, for its > moderation, even for its >> liberality and open heartedness. This should > have been big news. That Syed >> Ali Shah Geelani said that he wants to > see a strong and resurgent India. I >> heard him say this. And was this > reported by anyone? NO. Was it reported >> that he was cheered when he > said this ? NO. Was it reported that no one had >> any thing angry to > say against the struggling peoples of India? NO. Was it >> reported > that SAS Geelani expilicity said that he is NOT against dialogue, >> > provided that the five point formula put forward by him (none of > whose >> provisions ­ 1. acceptance of the disputed nature of the > territory of Jammu >> and Kashmir, 2. repeal of AFSPA and other black > laws, 3. release of >> political detenues and prisoners, 4. withdrawal > of the disproportionate >> presence of the armed forces and 5. > punishment to those gulty of taking life >> in the past few months ­ > require the government of India to think Œoutside¹ >> the framework of > the Indian Constitution) are accepted as the basis of the >> dialogue? NO. > > Don¹t you think that it makes BIG news that the tallest >> separatist > leader in Jammu and Kashmir actually, in a moderate voice, spells >> > out, in Delhi, the fundamental basis of a considered dialogue with > the >> Indian state, while offering it a chance to do so on bases that > are >> absolutely reasonable and sound, and honourable to all concerned? > Do you not >> think that a responsible media organization would consider > this a scoop, a >> major news stor? But that is not what happened. > > Instead, Times Now, (and I >> am waiting for the morning newspapers to > see how far this muck has spread) >> chose to focus on the deliberately > staged disruption of a handful of agent >> provocateurs, our familiar > posse of self styled patriotic champions of the >> continued occupation > of Kashmir, who posed for the camera, hyperventilated, >> and occupied, > perhaps no more than five percent of the attention of several >> patient > hours. If you saw the news reports on Times Now¹s ŒNEWSHOUR¹ >> > programme, you would have thought that all of what happened was their >> > presence as a Œprotest¹ against the meeting. As someone who was > present >> through much of this, I am totally, utterly aghast that a lie > of such >> magnificient proportions could be dished out with such ease. > I am aghast >> that Aditya Raj Kaul who was one of the panel invited by > Arnab Goswami to >> the Times Now Newshour show could lie with a > straight face by saying that >> there was no attempt made to Œdisrupt¹ > the meeting by those who were there >> to represent his point of view. > > Someday, I hope that all of these people, the >> Arnab Goswamis of the > world, find reason to repent for continuing to keep >> the people of > India and Kashmir in the dark. They had better think hard, >> because > the day when they will have cause to repent, is not far. Azaadi will >> > come to Kashmir, and with it, a glimmer of Azaadi will be the share > of >> those people in India who stood by their Kashmiri friends, in > their darkest >> hour.Going by what I witnessed yesterday, there will be > many such people, so >> Arnab Goswami and his ilk had better start > practicing how to say sorry, >> several hundred times a >> day. > > > > best, > > > > Shuddha > > --------------------------------------------- > > Shudd >> habrata Sengupta > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an >> open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To >> subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe >> in >> the subject header. > To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: >> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From lalitambardar at hotmail.com Fri Oct 22 18:01:20 2010 From: lalitambardar at hotmail.com (Lalit Ambardar) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 12:31:20 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?Azadi=3A_The_Only_Way_=96_Report_f?= =?windows-1252?q?rom_a_Turbulent_Few_Hours_in_Delhi?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This is the height of ideological perfidy----oppose elected Ahmadinejad in Iran & eulogise the megalomanic proponent of “Azadi- bara- e- Islam” (freedom through Islam) in Kashmir. Compulsive anti-state ‘agent provocateurs’ are only prolonging the agony of Kashmiri masses by patronising those who want to usher Kashmir in to the medieval past. Rgds all LA ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To: reader-list at sarai.net > From: shuddha at sarai.net > Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 03:51:50 +0530 > Subject: [Reader-list] Azadi: The Only Way – Report from a Turbulent Few Hours in Delhi > > (Apologies for Cross Posting on Kafila.org) > > Dear Friends, > > I was present and speaking a few hours ago at a meeting titled > ‘Azadi: The Only Way’ on the situation in Jammu and Kashmir, > organized by the Committee for the Release of Political Prisoners at > the Little Theatre Group in Delhi yesterday (21st October). I was not > present from the beginning of the meeting as I was traveling from > another city, but can vouch for what occurred from around 4:30 pm > till the time that the meeting wound up, well after 8:00 pm in the > evening. > > The meeting took place in the packed to capacity auditorium of the > Little Theatre Group on Copernicus Marg at the heart of New Delhi. > Several speakers, including the poet Varavara Rao, Prof. Mihir > Bhattacharya, Sugata Bhadra, Gursharan Singh, G.N.Saibaba, Professor > Sheikh Showkat Hussain of Srinagar University, the journalist Najeeb > Mubaraki, a repesentative of the Naga Peoples Movement for Human > Rights and Justice, the writer Arundhati Roy and myself spoke at the > meeting. (I may be missing out some names, for which I apologize, but > I was not present for a part of the meeting, at the very beginning) > The climax of the meeting was a very substantive and significant > speech by Syed Ali Shah Geelani of the Hurriyat Conference (G), which > spelt out the vision of liberation (Azaadi) and Justice that Syed Ali > Shah Geelani held out before the assembled public, of which I will > write in detail later in this text. > > The artist known as ‘Inder Salim’ originally from Kashmir, currently > living in Delhi, made an intervention by inviting the assembled > people to take (with him) the stance of a masked stone pelter for a > brief, silent moment. Students from the Jawaharlal Nehru University > sang a song, ‘Tu Zinda Hai to Zindagi Ki Jeet Mein Yakeen Kar’ > invoking the delights of life and liberation. In conclusion, the > meeting adopted a resolution, which was read, on behalf of the > Committee for the Release of Political Prisoners, by Mihir Bhattacharya. > > The atmosphere, for the several hours that I was present, was > absolutely electric. The vast majority of the audience was warm and > appreciative of all the speakers. They were patient and respectful – > and despite grave provocation from a section that identified > themselves as ‘Indian patriots’ and partisans of the ‘Kashmir as > indivisible part of India’ position - that repeatedly tried to > interrupt the meeting and heckle speakers, and on one occasion even > tried to throw an object at the dias – did not stoop to be provoked > by these pathetic attempts at disruption of a peaceful gathering. > > No provocative, secterian or hateful slogans were raised by the > majority of the people present. The only provocative posturing that I > witnessed was undertaken by the self-declared Indian patriots, who > were not stopped from having their say, but were requested simply not > to disrupt the proceedings. > > When their behaviour crossed the limits of public decency, they were > escorted out of the premises by representatives of the Delhi Police. > The Delhi Police, to their credit, did not act against the majority > of the audience, simply because the majority of the audience > conducted themselves in a completely civil and democratic manner. > > There was no attempt made at intimidation of any kind. Professor SAR > Geelani, who was conducting the proceedings on behalf of the > organizers – Committee for the Release of Political Prisoners > (CRPP) , repeatedly asked the people obstructing the speakers to > conduct themselves in a cultured and dignified manner. His pleas were > disregarded by the section of the crowd that let its ‘Indian > patriotism’ get the better of its civilisation. When things got a > little too hot on occasion, the majority of the audience present > simply drowned the rude remarks and indignant posturing of the small > minority of self styled Indian patriots and champions of the ‘Kashmir > as indivisible part of India’ position – in wave after wave of > cheerful but firm hand clapping. > > While there as enthusiastic cheering and sloganeering from the > majority of the young men and women assembled at the gathering, there > was no attempt while I was present to give the slogans a religious or > secterian colour. When Syed Ali Shah Geelani said that the people of > India and Kashmir are tied together by the bonds of insaaniyat > (humanity), when he quoted Gandhi, or spoke of the necessity of > conducting a non-violent struggle that was devoid of hatred, or even > when he said that he wished to see India rise as a great power in the > world, but as a power that felt no need to oppress others, he was > wholeheartedly and sincerely applauded, by the majority of people > present in the auditorium, regardless of whether or not they were > Kashmiri. > > Yesterday’s meeting needs to be seen in the context of a momentum of > different events, which have included public meetings at Jantar > Mantar, meetings in the Jawaharlal Nehru Universtiy and Delhi > University, film screenings and talks, independently organized > exhibitions on the history of Jammu and Kashmir in educational > institutions, photographic exhibitions on the situation in Kashmir > today that have taken place recently at the India Habitat Centre, > while Kashmir has reeled under the brutality of the occupation that > has resulted in a hundred and eleven deaths of unarmed or stone > pelting people, including children and teenagers. The momentum of > this process, which recognizes the urgency of the situation in > Kashmir, needs to be taken to its logical conclusion, until the world > and the international community sits up and takes notice of the true > nature of the hold of the Indian state on Kashmir and its people.We > need many more such meetings and gatherings in Delhi, and indeed in > every large city in India. > > It must be maintained so that even a Barack Hussein Obama, scheduled > to visit New Delhi in November, is compelled to recognize the fact > that the conduct of the Indian state in Kashmir, based as it is on > brutal violence and intimidation, based as it is on a disregard of > every norm of the conduct of civilized governance is unacceptable to > the world. You simply cannot claim to be the world’s largest > democracy and preside over the deaths of 70,000 people in twenty > years. You cannot claim to be judged as a democracy and have laws > like the Armed Forces Special Powers Act. You cannot claim to be a > democracy and have your police and paramilitaries beat children to > death openly on the streets, or rape and kill young women with > impunity. A state that does so is an oppressive, immoral, occupying > power, and needs to be resisted by every right thinking person in the > world. The Indian state’s record in Kashmir over the past several > decades is not only an oppression visited on the people of Kashmir, > it is an insult to the United Nations, to the world community, and to > every principle of justice, fairness and democracy. It is an insult > to all the peace loving and freedom loving citizens of India that do > not wish to see oppression carried out in their name. > > This is the message that needs to go out, and is going out, not only > from the streets of Sringar, Baramulla and Kupwara, but also from > gatherings, such as yesterdays, from the heart of Delhi, the capital > of India. We, who are the friends of liberty and justice in India, > need to stand besides our Kashmiri brothers and sisters and say to > the world that we do not accept the lies put out by the Indian state > and its apologists on Kashmir. That is the true significance and > import of the process in which yesterday’s meeting plays an important > part. This process will not stop until the world takes notice. The > United Nations, and the broad democratic currents as well as the > political leaderships of Europe, the Americas, and of every > significant power in the world needs to know that hundreds of people, > young and old, intellectuals, writers, activists, lawyers, teachers > and others, Indians and Kashmiris can stand united, in Delhi, at the > heart of the Indian Republic’s capital, in refusing to accept the > continued occupation of Jammu and Kashmir, by India and by Pakistan. > That they believe that it is only the people of Jammu and Kashmir who > must decide for themselves their own future destiny, peacefully, in a > climate free of coercion and intimidation. > > As Syed Ali Shah Geelani and Sheikh Showkat Hussain said, all that > they are asking for is the right to self determination, promised by > India, before the Untied Nations, to be freely enacted through a > plebiscite, in conditions of peace and liberty, without the presence > of armed force, for the inhabitants of every part of the undivided > state of Jammu and Kashmir – regardless of whether the results of > that plebiscite are in favour of India, Pakistan or an independent, > united, Jammu and Kashmir that can live in peace with all its > neighbours in South Asia. > > There was a great diversity of statements and styles present in > abundant splendour at yesterday’s meeting. There was no way by which > the meeting could be reduced or simplified a single monotonous > statement. Yes, all the panelists, spoke unambiguously about the > necessity for ending the military occupation by the Indian state in > Kashmir. This does not mean that their statements and sentiments were > a manufactured and processed uniformity. The people on the panel may > have significant political and philosophical differences amongst > themselves, they may even think differently about what ‘Azaadi’ might > mean, but this was a sign, not of the weakness, but of the strength > and vitality of yesterday’s gathering. > > ‘Azaadi’ if and when it comes, will not be the parting gift of an > exhausted colonial power, it will be the harvest of the fruits of the > imaginations and intelligences of millions of people, of their > debates and their conversations. > > What was extremely heart warming was the fact that each speaker spoke > of the fact that the voices of the people of Kashmir are no longer > alone and isolated, that there is a chorus of voices in different > parts of South Asia that echo and endorese their desire for > liberation from a brutal militarized occupation. From my notes of the > time that I was there, I recall that the writer Arundhati Roy, while > endorsing the demand of Azaadi for Kashmir, reminded the audience of > the need for the people of Kashmir not to be selective about justice > and injustice, that they must find methods to forge webs of > solidarity with all the suffering and oppressed peoples of India. She > was heckled and rudely interrupted by a small group of Indian > nationalists in the audience, who repeatedly raised the situation of > Kashmiri Pandits, Arundhati Roy, when she was able to resume > speaking, spoke unambiguously about the fact that she considered the > situation of Kashmiri Pandits to be a tragedy. She was echoed in this > sentiment later by Syed Ali Shah Geelani who said that he personally > stands guarantee for the safety and security of all minorities, > Hindu, Sikh, Buddhists, Christians and others in a future free > Kashmir. He implored the Pandits to return to Kashmir, and said, that > they are an integral part of Kashmiri society. He spoke of the need > for ensuring that a free Kashmir was a just Kashmir, and that justice > meant that the freedom, safety and security of all minorities, of > their property, their places of worship, their freedom of conscience > be given the utmost importance. He reminded the assembled people that > throughout these turbulent months, the people of Kashmir have > continued to be hospitable to Hindu pilgrims, have set up > ‘Langars’ (Kitchens) for them, and have cared for them when they have > fallen sick, despite being at the receiving end of the violence of > the Indian state. > > I spoke briefly, about the fact that I was proud that so many of us > had gathered in my city, Delhi, putting aside the abstraction of our > politically determined, state given construct of citizenship, and > standing, here, now, on the grounds of a concrete human solidarity > with the people of Kashmir. I spoke of the fact that there are > significant voices, even in the mainstream media who have been > compelled to recognize the urgency of the situation in Kashmir, by > the sheer determination of the youth of Kashmir to get the news of > what is happening in Kashmir out to the world. I spoke of the role > played by facebook sites like ‘Aalaw’ and blogs, and the fact that > the people of India and the world can no longer be kept in the dark > by a pliant media, as happened in 1989-90. I spoke of the ways in > which the viral circulation of leaked videos of the humiliation of > Kashmiri youth on facebook pages and online fora have successfully > shown us what the reality of Kashmir is today. I urged media > professionals in the mainstream media to introspect and reflect on > the role that they may be compelled, against their own professional > ehtics, to play in the pyschological and propaganda war that the > Indian state is currently conducting. I spoke of my sense of shame > and remorse at the evasive and dissimulating role played by sections > of the mainstream media in India while reporting (or not reporting) > atrocities that make even the images from Abu Gharaib pale in > comparison. > > I am ashamed to say, that despite my respectful plea to the media to > play a responsible role in their reportage of Kashmir related > matters, major channels like Times Now and NDTV once again let the > truth down in their reports on the days events. NDTV saw it fit to > simply report > > an incident of ‘shoe throwing at SAS Geelani’. A shoe (or some other > indeterminate object) was indeed thrown, but not at Geelani. It > landed on a bottle of water in front of another speaker, while he was > speaking. So let’s at least set that record straight. Arnab Goswami > of Times Now, while conducting what he likes to call a ‘debate; on > the programme called ‘News Hour’ (neither News, nor just an Hour) > repeatedly uttered hysterical untruths, such as the presumption that > ‘No State permits the advocacy of secession and self determination’ > and that a meeting such as the one I participated in yesterday, were > it to take place, say, in the United States, would immediately lead > to all speakers present (including, presumably, myself) in being > imprisoned on charges of sedition. I have to inform my readers here, > that on both counts, Arnab Goswami is wrong. Seriously wrong. Either > he is a misinformed idiot. Or he knows that he is wrong, and is lying > to his public through his teeth. We can choose to be generous about > how he would interpret his motives, and assume he is simply a fool. > > Goswami, consequently demanded to know why we were not immediately > imprisoned under section 124 of the Indian penal code. Arnab Goswami > needs to be reminded, that in United States law, the provisions of > the Sedition Act are applicable only in times when the country is in > a declared state of war. And therefore his analogy does not apply, as > I am not aware that the Indian republic is currently in a declared > state of war, as per international law, (unless Arnab Goswami has > lost his marbles to the extent that he confuses the shadow boxing > that he does on television with a war declared by a state under > international law). That, furthermore, the provisions of the US > Sedition Law have been declared substantially void by the US Supreme > Court ruling in the Brandenberg vs. Ohio (1969) judgement, and of > course, by the US Supreme court guaranteeing the primacy of free > speech, including ‘seditious’ speech, including the burning of the > United States flag, under the provisions of the first amendment to > the US constitution. > > There have been repeated attempts made to pass a law that would make > ‘flag burning’ an offence under US Law. Fortunately, (for liberty and > free speech) as of now, these attempts have not come to pass, and > currently, under US Law it is perfectly legal to advocate self- > determination and secwssion, if done peacefully, even to the extent > of burning or destroying or descerating symbols of state authority > like the national flag. Furthermore several constiutions, such as the > constitutions of Canada, Ethipopia, Austria and France, implicitly or > explicitly, provide for a legal expression of right to self > determination, provided it is exercised in a peaceful and democratic > manner, as part of the freedom of expression principle. > > But the point that needs to be made is larger than whether or not > Arnab Goswami is a fool and a charlatan. Yesterday’s meeting was a > historic opportunity for his channel, and indeed for all of the > Indian mainstream media, to report and take cognizance of the fact > that there is a significant section of Indian public opinion that is > actually in favour of ‘Azaadi’ in Kashmir. I am not suggesting that > this section constitutes an overwhelming majority at present (that > might change) but, that it does exist, and that it presents, cogent, > precise arguments, that cannot be dismissed, (as is being done by > Times Now and its ilk) by invoking the spectre of ‘terrorism’. There > is hardly any ‘terrorism’ in Kashmir today (if we don’t count the > Indian state and its terror) . The 111 people who have died in the > past months, have not died at the hands of non-state insurgents, they > have died, unarmed, facing the bullets of the Indian state. The > movement for Azaadi in Kashmir has left the culture of the gun and > the grenade behind. It fights today without weapons, armed only with > courage. If there is a terrorist in Kashmir today, he wears the > uniform of the forces of the Indian state, and carries the weapons > supplied by the arsenal of the Indian state. To discount the voices > that rise in dissent against this reality as ‘terrorist sympathizers’ > as Arnab Goswami has done on his channel is to insult reality. > > Syed Ali Shah Geelani spoke of the bonds of insaaniyat that tie the > peoples of Kashmir and India yesterday. I heard him say this. I was > barely five feet away from him. I heard him speak of his regard and > respect for the minorities in Jammu and Kashmir. I do not agree with > much of what Geelani Saheb represents politically, or ideologically, > but I have no hesitation in saying that what he said yesterday, was > surprising for its gentleness, for its consideration, for its > moderation, even for its liberality and open heartedness. This should > have been big news. That Syed Ali Shah Geelani said that he wants to > see a strong and resurgent India. I heard him say this. And was this > reported by anyone? NO. Was it reported that he was cheered when he > said this ? NO. Was it reported that no one had any thing angry to > say against the struggling peoples of India? NO. Was it reported > that SAS Geelani expilicity said that he is NOT against dialogue, > provided that the five point formula put forward by him (none of > whose provisions – 1. acceptance of the disputed nature of the > territory of Jammu and Kashmir, 2. repeal of AFSPA and other black > laws, 3. release of political detenues and prisoners, 4. withdrawal > of the disproportionate presence of the armed forces and 5. > punishment to those gulty of taking life in the past few months – > require the government of India to think ‘outside’ the framework of > the Indian Constitution) are accepted as the basis of the dialogue? NO. > > Don’t you think that it makes BIG news that the tallest separatist > leader in Jammu and Kashmir actually, in a moderate voice, spells > out, in Delhi, the fundamental basis of a considered dialogue with > the Indian state, while offering it a chance to do so on bases that > are absolutely reasonable and sound, and honourable to all concerned? > Do you not think that a responsible media organization would consider > this a scoop, a major news stor? But that is not what happened. > > Instead, Times Now, (and I am waiting for the morning newspapers to > see how far this muck has spread) chose to focus on the deliberately > staged disruption of a handful of agent provocateurs, our familiar > posse of self styled patriotic champions of the continued occupation > of Kashmir, who posed for the camera, hyperventilated, and occupied, > perhaps no more than five percent of the attention of several patient > hours. If you saw the news reports on Times Now’s ‘NEWSHOUR’ > programme, you would have thought that all of what happened was their > presence as a ‘protest’ against the meeting. As someone who was > present through much of this, I am totally, utterly aghast that a lie > of such magnificient proportions could be dished out with such ease. > I am aghast that Aditya Raj Kaul who was one of the panel invited by > Arnab Goswami to the Times Now Newshour show could lie with a > straight face by saying that there was no attempt made to ‘disrupt’ > the meeting by those who were there to represent his point of view. > > Someday, I hope that all of these people, the Arnab Goswamis of the > world, find reason to repent for continuing to keep the people of > India and Kashmir in the dark. They had better think hard, because > the day when they will have cause to repent, is not far. Azaadi will > come to Kashmir, and with it, a glimmer of Azaadi will be the share > of those people in India who stood by their Kashmiri friends, in > their darkest hour.Going by what I witnessed yesterday, there will be > many such people, so Arnab Goswami and his ilk had better start > practicing how to say sorry, several hundred times a day. > > > > best, > > > > Shuddha > > --------------------------------------------- > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From lalitambardar at hotmail.com Fri Oct 22 18:03:58 2010 From: lalitambardar at hotmail.com (Lalit Ambardar) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 12:33:58 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?Azadi=3A_The_Only_Way_=AD_Report_f?= =?windows-1252?q?rom_a_Turbulent_Few_Hours_in_Delhi?= In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: This is height of ideological perfidy----oppose elected Ahmadinejad in Iran & eulogise the megalomanic proponent of “Azadi- bara- e- Islam” (freedom through Islam) in Kashmir. Compulsive anti-state ‘agent provocateurs’ are only prolonging the agony of Kashmiri masses by patronising those who want to usher Kashmir in to the medieval past. Rgds all LA ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 17:59:44 +0530 > From: pawan.durani at gmail.com > To: sonia.jabbar at gmail.com > CC: reader-list at sarai.net > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Azadi: The Only Way ­ Report from a Turbulent Few Hours in Delhi > > Awaiting a 3000 + Lines explanation from Mr Sengupta > > On 10/22/10, SJabbar wrote: > > Dear Shuddha, > > > > I've read with interest your report on the meeting at the LTG and am amazed > > that you have aligned yourself with and have so wholeheartedly endorsed the > > reactionary politics of SAS Geelani. Whatever he may have said for the > > benefit of audiences in New Delhi he has always advocated Kashmir's > > accession to Pakistan based on the 2-nation theory. He has made this > > unambiguously clear in his book on the Kashmir issue: 'Nava-e-Hurriyat'. He > > has reiterated this position as late as Sept 25 in an interview to Seema > > Mustafa of News X where he clearly states the independence option is not > > viable. He has never described the Kashmiri movement as a political struggle > > but a jihad and had in 1992 even written to the Afghan Mujahideen to save > > Kashmir from 'Hindu India.' > > > > And what of the votaries of independence and their assassination by the > > Hizb, the armed wing of the Jamat e-Isami of which Geelani was a member > > until his expulsion in 2003? What is SAS Geelani's position on that? If he > > has ever condemned it I should be grateful if someone were to send me a > > reference. > > > > That a man who has all his life scorned the notion of an independent Kashmir > > should now detail the character and complexion of such a state including its > > attitude to the sale and consumption of alcohol is truly funny, that he > > should quote Gandhi, even funnier (he was one of the first to castigate > > Yasin Malik's Gandhian methods of fasting as 'un-Islamic'.) That he should > > call for the return of the Pandits without once condemning their killings or > > the killings of Communists and National Conference workers in Kashmir is > > like Advani speaking about the prosperity of Muslims in Gujarat. > > > > You say Syed Ali Shah says "explicitly" he is not against dialogue, but you > > don't stop to question the placing of preconditions to a dialogue. Geelani > > has scorned talks with Delhi for years. He has abused those who have talked > > to N Delhi as traitors. The HM has assassinated those who dared to talk to > > N Delhi, whether it was Moulvi Farooq, Qazi Nissar, and even its own senior > > commanders like Abdul Majid Dar (they didn't even spare his wife Dr. > > Shameema who was shot at and grievously injured several years after her > > husband's murder.) > > > > Who places preconditions and then says let's have unconditional talks? What > > would you say if New Delhi were to say, we will only speak to SASG if he > > stops describing Kashmir as disputed territory or for that matter we will > > not speak to Hurriyat (M) and JKLF until they give up their stand on > > independent Kashmir? All of us would think New Delhi as being supremely > > unreasonable to expect a negotiation to begin by insisting the other party > > give up its core premise. > > > > And what is Geelani's FIRST precondition? That India accept that J&K is > > disputed territory. For India to accept that (esp. On SASG's goading) would > > mean, in diplomatese, to forgo its position on the Simla Agreement and all > > other agreements reached with Pakistan post 1972 and return to 1948 and the > > 'dispute' that was framed in the UN Resolutions, meaning, tossing the ball > > back into the UN and set itself up to arbitration from the international > > community. Why should it do that when both parties to the dispute agreed to > > settle the issue bilaterally? SAS Geelani knows that well enough and is > > content having tossed his 5 points into the arena and say, well I never said > > I wouldn't talk. > > > > Best > > sj > > > > > > On 22/10/10 3:51 AM, "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" wrote: > > > >> (Apologies for Cross Posting on Kafila.org) > > > > Dear Friends, > > > > I was present and > >> speaking a few hours ago at a meeting titled > > ŒAzadi: The Only Way¹ on the > >> situation in Jammu and Kashmir, > > organized by the Committee for the Release > >> of Political Prisoners at > > the Little Theatre Group in Delhi yesterday (21st > >> October). I was not > > present from the beginning of the meeting as I was > >> traveling from > > another city, but can vouch for what occurred from around > >> 4:30 pm > > till the time that the meeting wound up, well after 8:00 pm in the > >> > > evening. > > > > The meeting took place in the packed to capacity auditorium of the > >> > > Little Theatre Group on Copernicus Marg at the heart of New Delhi. > > Several > >> speakers, including the poet Varavara Rao, Prof. Mihir > > Bhattacharya, Sugata > >> Bhadra, Gursharan Singh, G.N.Saibaba, Professor > > Sheikh Showkat Hussain of > >> Srinagar University, the journalist Najeeb > > Mubaraki, a repesentative of the > >> Naga Peoples Movement for Human > > Rights and Justice, the writer Arundhati Roy > >> and myself spoke at the > > meeting. (I may be missing out some names, for which > >> I apologize, but > > I was not present for a part of the meeting, at the very > >> beginning) > > The climax of the meeting was a very substantive and significant > >> > > speech by Syed Ali Shah Geelani of the Hurriyat Conference (G), which > > spelt > >> out the vision of liberation (Azaadi) and Justice that Syed Ali > > Shah Geelani > >> held out before the assembled public, of which I will > > write in detail later > >> in this text. > > > > The artist known as ŒInder Salim¹ originally from Kashmir, > >> currently > > living in Delhi, made an intervention by inviting the assembled > >> > > people to take (with him) the stance of a masked stone pelter for a > > brief, > >> silent moment. Students from the Jawaharlal Nehru University > > sang a song, > >> ŒTu Zinda Hai to Zindagi Ki Jeet Mein Yakeen Kar¹ > > invoking the delights of > >> life and liberation. In conclusion, the > > meeting adopted a resolution, which > >> was read, on behalf of the > > Committee for the Release of Political Prisoners, > >> by Mihir Bhattacharya. > > > > The atmosphere, for the several hours that I was > >> present, was > > absolutely electric. The vast majority of the audience was warm > >> and > > appreciative of all the speakers. They were patient and respectful ­ > >> > > and despite grave provocation from a section that identified > > themselves as > >> ŒIndian patriots¹ and partisans of the ŒKashmir as > > indivisible part of > >> India¹ position - that repeatedly tried to > > interrupt the meeting and heckle > >> speakers, and on one occasion even > > tried to throw an object at the dias ­ > >> did not stoop to be provoked > > by these pathetic attempts at disruption of a > >> peaceful gathering. > > > > No provocative, secterian or hateful slogans were raised > >> by the > > majority of the people present. The only provocative posturing that I > >> > > witnessed was undertaken by the self-declared Indian patriots, who > > were not > >> stopped from having their say, but were requested simply not > > to disrupt the > >> proceedings. > > > > When their behaviour crossed the limits of public decency, they > >> were > > escorted out of the premises by representatives of the Delhi Police. > >> > > The Delhi Police, to their credit, did not act against the majority > > of the > >> audience, simply because the majority of the audience > > conducted themselves > >> in a completely civil and democratic manner. > > > > There was no attempt made at > >> intimidation of any kind. Professor SAR > > Geelani, who was conducting the > >> proceedings on behalf of the > > organizers ­ Committee for the Release of > >> Political Prisoners > > (CRPP) , repeatedly asked the people obstructing the > >> speakers to > > conduct themselves in a cultured and dignified manner. His pleas > >> were > > disregarded by the section of the crowd that let its ŒIndian > >> > > patriotism¹ get the better of its civilisation. When things got a > > little > >> too hot on occasion, the majority of the audience present > > simply drowned the > >> rude remarks and indignant posturing of the small > > minority of self styled > >> Indian patriots and champions of the ŒKashmir > > as indivisible part of India¹ > >> position ­ in wave after wave of > > cheerful but firm hand clapping. > > > > While > >> there as enthusiastic cheering and sloganeering from the > > majority of the > >> young men and women assembled at the gathering, there > > was no attempt while I > >> was present to give the slogans a religious or > > secterian colour. When Syed > >> Ali Shah Geelani said that the people of > > India and Kashmir are tied together > >> by the bonds of insaaniyat > > (humanity), when he quoted Gandhi, or spoke of > >> the necessity of > > conducting a non-violent struggle that was devoid of > >> hatred, or even > > when he said that he wished to see India rise as a great > >> power in the > > world, but as a power that felt no need to oppress others, he > >> was > > wholeheartedly and sincerely applauded, by the majority of people > >> > > present in the auditorium, regardless of whether or not they were > >> > > Kashmiri. > > > > Yesterday¹s meeting needs to be seen in the context of a momentum > >> of > > different events, which have included public meetings at Jantar > > Mantar, > >> meetings in the Jawaharlal Nehru Universtiy and Delhi > > University, film > >> screenings and talks, independently organized > > exhibitions on the history of > >> Jammu and Kashmir in educational > > institutions, photographic exhibitions on > >> the situation in Kashmir > > today that have taken place recently at the India > >> Habitat Centre, > > while Kashmir has reeled under the brutality of the > >> occupation that > > has resulted in a hundred and eleven deaths of unarmed or > >> stone > > pelting people, including children and teenagers. The momentum of > >> > > this process, which recognizes the urgency of the situation in > > Kashmir, > >> needs to be taken to its logical conclusion, until the world > > and the > >> international community sits up and takes notice of the true > > nature of the > >> hold of the Indian state on Kashmir and its people.We > > need many more such > >> meetings and gatherings in Delhi, and indeed in > > every large city in > >> India. > > > > It must be maintained so that even a Barack Hussein Obama, scheduled > >> > > to visit New Delhi in November, is compelled to recognize the fact > > that the > >> conduct of the Indian state in Kashmir, based as it is on > > brutal violence > >> and intimidation, based as it is on a disregard of > > every norm of the conduct > >> of civilized governance is unacceptable to > > the world. You simply cannot > >> claim to be the world¹s largest > > democracy and preside over the deaths of > >> 70,000 people in twenty > > years. You cannot claim to be judged as a democracy > >> and have laws > > like the Armed Forces Special Powers Act. You cannot claim to > >> be a > > democracy and have your police and paramilitaries beat children to > >> > > death openly on the streets, or rape and kill young women with > > impunity. A > >> state that does so is an oppressive, immoral, occupying > > power, and needs to > >> be resisted by every right thinking person in the > > world. The Indian state¹s > >> record in Kashmir over the past several > > decades is not only an oppression > >> visited on the people of Kashmir, > > it is an insult to the United Nations, to > >> the world community, and to > > every principle of justice, fairness and > >> democracy. It is an insult > > to all the peace loving and freedom loving > >> citizens of India that do > > not wish to see oppression carried out in their > >> name. > > > > This is the message that needs to go out, and is going out, not only > >> > > from the streets of Sringar, Baramulla and Kupwara, but also from > >> > > gatherings, such as yesterdays, from the heart of Delhi, the capital > > of > >> India. We, who are the friends of liberty and justice in India, > > need to > >> stand besides our Kashmiri brothers and sisters and say to > > the world that we > >> do not accept the lies put out by the Indian state > > and its apologists on > >> Kashmir. That is the true significance and > > import of the process in which > >> yesterday¹s meeting plays an important > > part. This process will not stop > >> until the world takes notice. The > > United Nations, and the broad democratic > >> currents as well as the > > political leaderships of Europe, the Americas, and > >> of every > > significant power in the world needs to know that hundreds of > >> people, > > young and old, intellectuals, writers, activists, lawyers, teachers > >> > > and others, Indians and Kashmiris can stand united, in Delhi, at the > > heart > >> of the Indian Republic¹s capital, in refusing to accept the > > continued > >> occupation of Jammu and Kashmir, by India and by Pakistan. > > That they believe > >> that it is only the people of Jammu and Kashmir who > > must decide for > >> themselves their own future destiny, peacefully, in a > > climate free of > >> coercion and intimidation. > > > > As Syed Ali Shah Geelani and Sheikh Showkat > >> Hussain said, all that > > they are asking for is the right to self > >> determination, promised by > > India, before the Untied Nations, to be freely > >> enacted through a > > plebiscite, in conditions of peace and liberty, without > >> the presence > > of armed force, for the inhabitants of every part of the > >> undivided > > state of Jammu and Kashmir ­ regardless of whether the results of > >> > > that plebiscite are in favour of India, Pakistan or an independent, > > united, > >> Jammu and Kashmir that can live in peace with all its > > neighbours in South > >> Asia. > > > > There was a great diversity of statements and styles present in > >> > > abundant splendour at yesterday¹s meeting. There was no way by which > > the > >> meeting could be reduced or simplified a single monotonous > > statement. Yes, > >> all the panelists, spoke unambiguously about the > > necessity for ending the > >> military occupation by the Indian state in > > Kashmir. This does not mean that > >> their statements and sentiments were > > a manufactured and processed > >> uniformity. The people on the panel may > > have significant political and > >> philosophical differences amongst > > themselves, they may even think > >> differently about what ŒAzaadi¹ might > > mean, but this was a sign, not of the > >> weakness, but of the strength > > and vitality of yesterday¹s > >> gathering. > > > > ŒAzaadi¹ if and when it comes, will not be the parting gift of an > >> > > exhausted colonial power, it will be the harvest of the fruits of the > >> > > imaginations and intelligences of millions of people, of their > > debates and > >> their conversations. > > > > What was extremely heart warming was the fact that each > >> speaker spoke > > of the fact that the voices of the people of Kashmir are no > >> longer > > alone and isolated, that there is a chorus of voices in different > >> > > parts of South Asia that echo and endorese their desire for > > liberation from > >> a brutal militarized occupation. From my notes of the > > time that I was there, > >> I recall that the writer Arundhati Roy, while > > endorsing the demand of Azaadi > >> for Kashmir, reminded the audience of > > the need for the people of Kashmir not > >> to be selective about justice > > and injustice, that they must find methods to > >> forge webs of > > solidarity with all the suffering and oppressed peoples of > >> India. She > > was heckled and rudely interrupted by a small group of Indian > >> > > nationalists in the audience, who repeatedly raised the situation of > >> > > Kashmiri Pandits, Arundhati Roy, when she was able to resume > > speaking, > >> spoke unambiguously about the fact that she considered the > > situation of > >> Kashmiri Pandits to be a tragedy. She was echoed in this > > sentiment later by > >> Syed Ali Shah Geelani who said that he personally > > stands guarantee for the > >> safety and security of all minorities, > > Hindu, Sikh, Buddhists, Christians > >> and others in a future free > > Kashmir. He implored the Pandits to return to > >> Kashmir, and said, that > > they are an integral part of Kashmiri society. He > >> spoke of the need > > for ensuring that a free Kashmir was a just Kashmir, and > >> that justice > > meant that the freedom, safety and security of all minorities, > >> of > > their property, their places of worship, their freedom of conscience > > be > >> given the utmost importance. He reminded the assembled people that > >> > > throughout these turbulent months, the people of Kashmir have > > continued to > >> be hospitable to Hindu pilgrims, have set up > > ŒLangars¹ (Kitchens) for them, > >> and have cared for them when they have > > fallen sick, despite being at the > >> receiving end of the violence of > > the Indian state. > > > > I spoke briefly, about > >> the fact that I was proud that so many of us > > had gathered in my city, Delhi, > >> putting aside the abstraction of our > > politically determined, state given > >> construct of citizenship, and > > standing, here, now, on the grounds of a > >> concrete human solidarity > > with the people of Kashmir. I spoke of the fact > >> that there are > > significant voices, even in the mainstream media who have > >> been > > compelled to recognize the urgency of the situation in Kashmir, by > >> > > the sheer determination of the youth of Kashmir to get the news of > > what is > >> happening in Kashmir out to the world. I spoke of the role > > played by > >> facebook sites like ŒAalaw¹ and blogs, and the fact that > > the people of India > >> and the world can no longer be kept in the dark > > by a pliant media, as > >> happened in 1989-90. I spoke of the ways in > > which the viral circulation of > >> leaked videos of the humiliation of > > Kashmiri youth on facebook pages and > >> online fora have successfully > > shown us what the reality of Kashmir is today. > >> I urged media > > professionals in the mainstream media to introspect and > >> reflect on > > the role that they may be compelled, against their own > >> professional > > ehtics, to play in the pyschological and propaganda war that > >> the > > Indian state is currently conducting. I spoke of my sense of shame > > and > >> remorse at the evasive and dissimulating role played by sections > > of the > >> mainstream media in India while reporting (or not reporting) > > atrocities that > >> make even the images from Abu Gharaib pale in > > comparison. > > > > I am ashamed to > >> say, that despite my respectful plea to the media to > > play a responsible role > >> in their reportage of Kashmir related > > matters, major channels like Times Now > >> and NDTV once again let the > > truth down in their reports on the days events. > >> NDTV saw it fit to > > simply report > > > > an incident of Œshoe throwing at SAS > >> Geelani¹. A shoe (or some other > > indeterminate object) was indeed thrown, but > >> not at Geelani. It > > landed on a bottle of water in front of another speaker, > >> while he was > > speaking. So let¹s at least set that record straight. Arnab > >> Goswami > > of Times Now, while conducting what he likes to call a Œdebate; on > >> > > the programme called ŒNews Hour¹ (neither News, nor just an Hour) > >> > > repeatedly uttered hysterical untruths, such as the presumption that > > ŒNo > >> State permits the advocacy of secession and self determination¹ > > and that a > >> meeting such as the one I participated in yesterday, were > > it to take place, > >> say, in the United States, would immediately lead > > to all speakers present > >> (including, presumably, myself) in being > > imprisoned on charges of sedition. > >> I have to inform my readers here, > > that on both counts, Arnab Goswami is > >> wrong. Seriously wrong. Either > > he is a misinformed idiot. Or he knows that > >> he is wrong, and is lying > > to his public through his teeth. We can choose to > >> be generous about > > how he would interpret his motives, and assume he is > >> simply a fool. > > > > Goswami, consequently demanded to know why we were not > >> immediately > > imprisoned under section 124 of the Indian penal code. Arnab > >> Goswami > > needs to be reminded, that in United States law, the provisions of > >> > > the Sedition Act are applicable only in times when the country is in > > a > >> declared state of war. And therefore his analogy does not apply, as > > I am not > >> aware that the Indian republic is currently in a declared > > state of war, as > >> per international law, (unless Arnab Goswami has > > lost his marbles to the > >> extent that he confuses the shadow boxing > > that he does on television with a > >> war declared by a state under > > international law). That, furthermore, the > >> provisions of the US > > Sedition Law have been declared substantially void by > >> the US Supreme > > Court ruling in the Brandenberg vs. Ohio (1969) judgement, > >> and of > > course, by the US Supreme court guaranteeing the primacy of free > >> > > speech, including Œseditious¹ speech, including the burning of the > > United > >> States flag, under the provisions of the first amendment to > > the US > >> constitution. > > > > There have been repeated attempts made to pass a law that would > >> make > > Œflag burning¹ an offence under US Law. Fortunately, (for liberty and > >> > > free speech) as of now, these attempts have not come to pass, and > >> > > currently, under US Law it is perfectly legal to advocate self- > >> > > determination and secwssion, if done peacefully, even to the extent > > of > >> burning or destroying or descerating symbols of state authority > > like the > >> national flag. Furthermore several constiutions, such as the > > constitutions > >> of Canada, Ethipopia, Austria and France, implicitly or > > explicitly, provide > >> for a legal expression of right to self > > determination, provided it is > >> exercised in a peaceful and democratic > > manner, as part of the freedom of > >> expression principle. > > > > But the point that needs to be made is larger than > >> whether or not > > Arnab Goswami is a fool and a charlatan. Yesterday¹s meeting > >> was a > > historic opportunity for his channel, and indeed for all of the > >> > > Indian mainstream media, to report and take cognizance of the fact > > that > >> there is a significant section of Indian public opinion that is > > actually in > >> favour of ŒAzaadi¹ in Kashmir. I am not suggesting that > > this section > >> constitutes an overwhelming majority at present (that > > might change) but, > >> that it does exist, and that it presents, cogent, > > precise arguments, that > >> cannot be dismissed, (as is being done by > > Times Now and its ilk) by invoking > >> the spectre of Œterrorism¹. There > > is hardly any Œterrorism¹ in Kashmir today > >> (if we don¹t count the > > Indian state and its terror) . The 111 people who > >> have died in the > > past months, have not died at the hands of non-state > >> insurgents, they > > have died, unarmed, facing the bullets of the Indian state. > >> The > > movement for Azaadi in Kashmir has left the culture of the gun and > > the > >> grenade behind. It fights today without weapons, armed only with > > courage. If > >> there is a terrorist in Kashmir today, he wears the > > uniform of the forces of > >> the Indian state, and carries the weapons > > supplied by the arsenal of the > >> Indian state. To discount the voices > > that rise in dissent against this > >> reality as Œterrorist sympathizers¹ > > as Arnab Goswami has done on his channel > >> is to insult reality. > > > > Syed Ali Shah Geelani spoke of the bonds of insaaniyat > >> that tie the > > peoples of Kashmir and India yesterday. I heard him say this. I > >> was > > barely five feet away from him. I heard him speak of his regard and > >> > > respect for the minorities in Jammu and Kashmir. I do not agree with > > much > >> of what Geelani Saheb represents politically, or ideologically, > > but I have > >> no hesitation in saying that what he said yesterday, was > > surprising for its > >> gentleness, for its consideration, for its > > moderation, even for its > >> liberality and open heartedness. This should > > have been big news. That Syed > >> Ali Shah Geelani said that he wants to > > see a strong and resurgent India. I > >> heard him say this. And was this > > reported by anyone? NO. Was it reported > >> that he was cheered when he > > said this ? NO. Was it reported that no one had > >> any thing angry to > > say against the struggling peoples of India? NO. Was it > >> reported > > that SAS Geelani expilicity said that he is NOT against dialogue, > >> > > provided that the five point formula put forward by him (none of > > whose > >> provisions ­ 1. acceptance of the disputed nature of the > > territory of Jammu > >> and Kashmir, 2. repeal of AFSPA and other black > > laws, 3. release of > >> political detenues and prisoners, 4. withdrawal > > of the disproportionate > >> presence of the armed forces and 5. > > punishment to those gulty of taking life > >> in the past few months ­ > > require the government of India to think Œoutside¹ > >> the framework of > > the Indian Constitution) are accepted as the basis of the > >> dialogue? NO. > > > > Don¹t you think that it makes BIG news that the tallest > >> separatist > > leader in Jammu and Kashmir actually, in a moderate voice, spells > >> > > out, in Delhi, the fundamental basis of a considered dialogue with > > the > >> Indian state, while offering it a chance to do so on bases that > > are > >> absolutely reasonable and sound, and honourable to all concerned? > > Do you not > >> think that a responsible media organization would consider > > this a scoop, a > >> major news stor? But that is not what happened. > > > > Instead, Times Now, (and I > >> am waiting for the morning newspapers to > > see how far this muck has spread) > >> chose to focus on the deliberately > > staged disruption of a handful of agent > >> provocateurs, our familiar > > posse of self styled patriotic champions of the > >> continued occupation > > of Kashmir, who posed for the camera, hyperventilated, > >> and occupied, > > perhaps no more than five percent of the attention of several > >> patient > > hours. If you saw the news reports on Times Now¹s ŒNEWSHOUR¹ > >> > > programme, you would have thought that all of what happened was their > >> > > presence as a Œprotest¹ against the meeting. As someone who was > > present > >> through much of this, I am totally, utterly aghast that a lie > > of such > >> magnificient proportions could be dished out with such ease. > > I am aghast > >> that Aditya Raj Kaul who was one of the panel invited by > > Arnab Goswami to > >> the Times Now Newshour show could lie with a > > straight face by saying that > >> there was no attempt made to Œdisrupt¹ > > the meeting by those who were there > >> to represent his point of view. > > > > Someday, I hope that all of these people, the > >> Arnab Goswamis of the > > world, find reason to repent for continuing to keep > >> the people of > > India and Kashmir in the dark. They had better think hard, > >> because > > the day when they will have cause to repent, is not far. Azaadi will > >> > > come to Kashmir, and with it, a glimmer of Azaadi will be the share > > of > >> those people in India who stood by their Kashmiri friends, in > > their darkest > >> hour.Going by what I witnessed yesterday, there will be > > many such people, so > >> Arnab Goswami and his ilk had better start > > practicing how to say sorry, > >> several hundred times a > >> day. > > > > > > > > best, > > > > > > > > Shuddha > > > > --------------------------------------------- > > > > Shudd > >> habrata Sengupta > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an > >> open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To > >> subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > >> in > >> the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: > >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > >> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > > in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From c.anupam at gmail.com Fri Oct 22 18:07:23 2010 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 18:07:23 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?iso-8859-1?q?Azadi=3A_The_Only_Way_=AD_Report_fro?= =?iso-8859-1?q?m_a_Turbulent_Few_Hours_in_Delhi?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: what's wrong with freedom through islam. this state recently passed a judgment which favoured freedom through hinduism by building a temple with a certain demi god as one of its trustees, whose existence is based on faith. i say, long live Azadi-bara-e-Islam. it is a way of god, you fascists. On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 6:03 PM, Lalit Ambardar wrote: > > This is height of ideological perfidy----oppose elected Ahmadinejad in Iran > & eulogise the megalomanic proponent of “Azadi- bara- e- Islam” (freedom > through Islam) in Kashmir. > > Compulsive anti-state ‘agent provocateurs’ are only prolonging the agony > of Kashmiri masses by patronising those who want to usher Kashmir in to the > medieval past. > Rgds all > LA > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 17:59:44 +0530 > > From: pawan.durani at gmail.com > > To: sonia.jabbar at gmail.com > > CC: reader-list at sarai.net > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Azadi: The Only Way ­ Report from a Turbulent > Few Hours in Delhi > > > > Awaiting a 3000 + Lines explanation from Mr Sengupta > > > > On 10/22/10, SJabbar wrote: > > > Dear Shuddha, > > > > > > I've read with interest your report on the meeting at the LTG and am > amazed > > > that you have aligned yourself with and have so wholeheartedly endorsed > the > > > reactionary politics of SAS Geelani. Whatever he may have said for the > > > benefit of audiences in New Delhi he has always advocated Kashmir's > > > accession to Pakistan based on the 2-nation theory. He has made this > > > unambiguously clear in his book on the Kashmir issue: > 'Nava-e-Hurriyat'. He > > > has reiterated this position as late as Sept 25 in an interview to > Seema > > > Mustafa of News X where he clearly states the independence option is > not > > > viable. He has never described the Kashmiri movement as a political > struggle > > > but a jihad and had in 1992 even written to the Afghan Mujahideen to > save > > > Kashmir from 'Hindu India.' > > > > > > And what of the votaries of independence and their assassination by the > > > Hizb, the armed wing of the Jamat e-Isami of which Geelani was a member > > > until his expulsion in 2003? What is SAS Geelani's position on that? If > he > > > has ever condemned it I should be grateful if someone were to send me a > > > reference. > > > > > > That a man who has all his life scorned the notion of an independent > Kashmir > > > should now detail the character and complexion of such a state > including its > > > attitude to the sale and consumption of alcohol is truly funny, that he > > > should quote Gandhi, even funnier (he was one of the first to castigate > > > Yasin Malik's Gandhian methods of fasting as 'un-Islamic'.) That he > should > > > call for the return of the Pandits without once condemning their > killings or > > > the killings of Communists and National Conference workers in Kashmir > is > > > like Advani speaking about the prosperity of Muslims in Gujarat. > > > > > > You say Syed Ali Shah says "explicitly" he is not against dialogue, but > you > > > don't stop to question the placing of preconditions to a dialogue. > Geelani > > > has scorned talks with Delhi for years. He has abused those who have > talked > > > to N Delhi as traitors. The HM has assassinated those who dared to talk > to > > > N Delhi, whether it was Moulvi Farooq, Qazi Nissar, and even its own > senior > > > commanders like Abdul Majid Dar (they didn't even spare his wife Dr. > > > Shameema who was shot at and grievously injured several years after her > > > husband's murder.) > > > > > > Who places preconditions and then says let's have unconditional talks? > What > > > would you say if New Delhi were to say, we will only speak to SASG if > he > > > stops describing Kashmir as disputed territory or for that matter we > will > > > not speak to Hurriyat (M) and JKLF until they give up their stand on > > > independent Kashmir? All of us would think New Delhi as being supremely > > > unreasonable to expect a negotiation to begin by insisting the other > party > > > give up its core premise. > > > > > > And what is Geelani's FIRST precondition? That India accept that J&K is > > > disputed territory. For India to accept that (esp. On SASG's goading) > would > > > mean, in diplomatese, to forgo its position on the Simla Agreement and > all > > > other agreements reached with Pakistan post 1972 and return to 1948 and > the > > > 'dispute' that was framed in the UN Resolutions, meaning, tossing the > ball > > > back into the UN and set itself up to arbitration from the > international > > > community. Why should it do that when both parties to the dispute > agreed to > > > settle the issue bilaterally? SAS Geelani knows that well enough and is > > > content having tossed his 5 points into the arena and say, well I never > said > > > I wouldn't talk. > > > > > > Best > > > sj > > > > > > > > > On 22/10/10 3:51 AM, "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" > wrote: > > > > > >> (Apologies for Cross Posting on Kafila.org) > > > > > > Dear Friends, > > > > > > I was present and > > >> speaking a few hours ago at a meeting titled > > > ŒAzadi: The Only Way¹ on the > > >> situation in Jammu and Kashmir, > > > organized by the Committee for the Release > > >> of Political Prisoners at > > > the Little Theatre Group in Delhi yesterday (21st > > >> October). I was not > > > present from the beginning of the meeting as I was > > >> traveling from > > > another city, but can vouch for what occurred from around > > >> 4:30 pm > > > till the time that the meeting wound up, well after 8:00 pm in the > > >> > > > evening. > > > > > > The meeting took place in the packed to capacity auditorium of the > > >> > > > Little Theatre Group on Copernicus Marg at the heart of New Delhi. > > > Several > > >> speakers, including the poet Varavara Rao, Prof. Mihir > > > Bhattacharya, Sugata > > >> Bhadra, Gursharan Singh, G.N.Saibaba, Professor > > > Sheikh Showkat Hussain of > > >> Srinagar University, the journalist Najeeb > > > Mubaraki, a repesentative of the > > >> Naga Peoples Movement for Human > > > Rights and Justice, the writer Arundhati Roy > > >> and myself spoke at the > > > meeting. (I may be missing out some names, for which > > >> I apologize, but > > > I was not present for a part of the meeting, at the very > > >> beginning) > > > The climax of the meeting was a very substantive and significant > > >> > > > speech by Syed Ali Shah Geelani of the Hurriyat Conference (G), which > > > spelt > > >> out the vision of liberation (Azaadi) and Justice that Syed Ali > > > Shah Geelani > > >> held out before the assembled public, of which I will > > > write in detail later > > >> in this text. > > > > > > The artist known as ŒInder Salim¹ originally from Kashmir, > > >> currently > > > living in Delhi, made an intervention by inviting the assembled > > >> > > > people to take (with him) the stance of a masked stone pelter for a > > > brief, > > >> silent moment. Students from the Jawaharlal Nehru University > > > sang a song, > > >> ŒTu Zinda Hai to Zindagi Ki Jeet Mein Yakeen Kar¹ > > > invoking the delights of > > >> life and liberation. In conclusion, the > > > meeting adopted a resolution, which > > >> was read, on behalf of the > > > Committee for the Release of Political Prisoners, > > >> by Mihir Bhattacharya. > > > > > > The atmosphere, for the several hours that I was > > >> present, was > > > absolutely electric. The vast majority of the audience was warm > > >> and > > > appreciative of all the speakers. They were patient and respectful ­ > > >> > > > and despite grave provocation from a section that identified > > > themselves as > > >> ŒIndian patriots¹ and partisans of the ŒKashmir as > > > indivisible part of > > >> India¹ position - that repeatedly tried to > > > interrupt the meeting and heckle > > >> speakers, and on one occasion even > > > tried to throw an object at the dias ­ > > >> did not stoop to be provoked > > > by these pathetic attempts at disruption of a > > >> peaceful gathering. > > > > > > No provocative, secterian or hateful slogans were raised > > >> by the > > > majority of the people present. The only provocative posturing that I > > >> > > > witnessed was undertaken by the self-declared Indian patriots, who > > > were not > > >> stopped from having their say, but were requested simply not > > > to disrupt the > > >> proceedings. > > > > > > When their behaviour crossed the limits of public decency, they > > >> were > > > escorted out of the premises by representatives of the Delhi Police. > > >> > > > The Delhi Police, to their credit, did not act against the majority > > > of the > > >> audience, simply because the majority of the audience > > > conducted themselves > > >> in a completely civil and democratic manner. > > > > > > There was no attempt made at > > >> intimidation of any kind. Professor SAR > > > Geelani, who was conducting the > > >> proceedings on behalf of the > > > organizers ­ Committee for the Release of > > >> Political Prisoners > > > (CRPP) , repeatedly asked the people obstructing the > > >> speakers to > > > conduct themselves in a cultured and dignified manner. His pleas > > >> were > > > disregarded by the section of the crowd that let its ŒIndian > > >> > > > patriotism¹ get the better of its civilisation. When things got a > > > little > > >> too hot on occasion, the majority of the audience present > > > simply drowned the > > >> rude remarks and indignant posturing of the small > > > minority of self styled > > >> Indian patriots and champions of the ŒKashmir > > > as indivisible part of India¹ > > >> position ­ in wave after wave of > > > cheerful but firm hand clapping. > > > > > > While > > >> there as enthusiastic cheering and sloganeering from the > > > majority of the > > >> young men and women assembled at the gathering, there > > > was no attempt while I > > >> was present to give the slogans a religious or > > > secterian colour. When Syed > > >> Ali Shah Geelani said that the people of > > > India and Kashmir are tied together > > >> by the bonds of insaaniyat > > > (humanity), when he quoted Gandhi, or spoke of > > >> the necessity of > > > conducting a non-violent struggle that was devoid of > > >> hatred, or even > > > when he said that he wished to see India rise as a great > > >> power in the > > > world, but as a power that felt no need to oppress others, he > > >> was > > > wholeheartedly and sincerely applauded, by the majority of people > > >> > > > present in the auditorium, regardless of whether or not they were > > >> > > > Kashmiri. > > > > > > Yesterday¹s meeting needs to be seen in the context of a momentum > > >> of > > > different events, which have included public meetings at Jantar > > > Mantar, > > >> meetings in the Jawaharlal Nehru Universtiy and Delhi > > > University, film > > >> screenings and talks, independently organized > > > exhibitions on the history of > > >> Jammu and Kashmir in educational > > > institutions, photographic exhibitions on > > >> the situation in Kashmir > > > today that have taken place recently at the India > > >> Habitat Centre, > > > while Kashmir has reeled under the brutality of the > > >> occupation that > > > has resulted in a hundred and eleven deaths of unarmed or > > >> stone > > > pelting people, including children and teenagers. The momentum of > > >> > > > this process, which recognizes the urgency of the situation in > > > Kashmir, > > >> needs to be taken to its logical conclusion, until the world > > > and the > > >> international community sits up and takes notice of the true > > > nature of the > > >> hold of the Indian state on Kashmir and its people.We > > > need many more such > > >> meetings and gatherings in Delhi, and indeed in > > > every large city in > > >> India. > > > > > > It must be maintained so that even a Barack Hussein Obama, scheduled > > >> > > > to visit New Delhi in November, is compelled to recognize the fact > > > that the > > >> conduct of the Indian state in Kashmir, based as it is on > > > brutal violence > > >> and intimidation, based as it is on a disregard of > > > every norm of the conduct > > >> of civilized governance is unacceptable to > > > the world. You simply cannot > > >> claim to be the world¹s largest > > > democracy and preside over the deaths of > > >> 70,000 people in twenty > > > years. You cannot claim to be judged as a democracy > > >> and have laws > > > like the Armed Forces Special Powers Act. You cannot claim to > > >> be a > > > democracy and have your police and paramilitaries beat children to > > >> > > > death openly on the streets, or rape and kill young women with > > > impunity. A > > >> state that does so is an oppressive, immoral, occupying > > > power, and needs to > > >> be resisted by every right thinking person in the > > > world. The Indian state¹s > > >> record in Kashmir over the past several > > > decades is not only an oppression > > >> visited on the people of Kashmir, > > > it is an insult to the United Nations, to > > >> the world community, and to > > > every principle of justice, fairness and > > >> democracy. It is an insult > > > to all the peace loving and freedom loving > > >> citizens of India that do > > > not wish to see oppression carried out in their > > >> name. > > > > > > This is the message that needs to go out, and is going out, not only > > >> > > > from the streets of Sringar, Baramulla and Kupwara, but also from > > >> > > > gatherings, such as yesterdays, from the heart of Delhi, the capital > > > of > > >> India. We, who are the friends of liberty and justice in India, > > > need to > > >> stand besides our Kashmiri brothers and sisters and say to > > > the world that we > > >> do not accept the lies put out by the Indian state > > > and its apologists on > > >> Kashmir. That is the true significance and > > > import of the process in which > > >> yesterday¹s meeting plays an important > > > part. This process will not stop > > >> until the world takes notice. The > > > United Nations, and the broad democratic > > >> currents as well as the > > > political leaderships of Europe, the Americas, and > > >> of every > > > significant power in the world needs to know that hundreds of > > >> people, > > > young and old, intellectuals, writers, activists, lawyers, teachers > > >> > > > and others, Indians and Kashmiris can stand united, in Delhi, at the > > > heart > > >> of the Indian Republic¹s capital, in refusing to accept the > > > continued > > >> occupation of Jammu and Kashmir, by India and by Pakistan. > > > That they believe > > >> that it is only the people of Jammu and Kashmir who > > > must decide for > > >> themselves their own future destiny, peacefully, in a > > > climate free of > > >> coercion and intimidation. > > > > > > As Syed Ali Shah Geelani and Sheikh Showkat > > >> Hussain said, all that > > > they are asking for is the right to self > > >> determination, promised by > > > India, before the Untied Nations, to be freely > > >> enacted through a > > > plebiscite, in conditions of peace and liberty, without > > >> the presence > > > of armed force, for the inhabitants of every part of the > > >> undivided > > > state of Jammu and Kashmir ­ regardless of whether the results of > > >> > > > that plebiscite are in favour of India, Pakistan or an independent, > > > united, > > >> Jammu and Kashmir that can live in peace with all its > > > neighbours in South > > >> Asia. > > > > > > There was a great diversity of statements and styles present in > > >> > > > abundant splendour at yesterday¹s meeting. There was no way by which > > > the > > >> meeting could be reduced or simplified a single monotonous > > > statement. Yes, > > >> all the panelists, spoke unambiguously about the > > > necessity for ending the > > >> military occupation by the Indian state in > > > Kashmir. This does not mean that > > >> their statements and sentiments were > > > a manufactured and processed > > >> uniformity. The people on the panel may > > > have significant political and > > >> philosophical differences amongst > > > themselves, they may even think > > >> differently about what ŒAzaadi¹ might > > > mean, but this was a sign, not of the > > >> weakness, but of the strength > > > and vitality of yesterday¹s > > >> gathering. > > > > > > ŒAzaadi¹ if and when it comes, will not be the parting gift of an > > >> > > > exhausted colonial power, it will be the harvest of the fruits of the > > >> > > > imaginations and intelligences of millions of people, of their > > > debates and > > >> their conversations. > > > > > > What was extremely heart warming was the fact that each > > >> speaker spoke > > > of the fact that the voices of the people of Kashmir are no > > >> longer > > > alone and isolated, that there is a chorus of voices in different > > >> > > > parts of South Asia that echo and endorese their desire for > > > liberation from > > >> a brutal militarized occupation. From my notes of the > > > time that I was there, > > >> I recall that the writer Arundhati Roy, while > > > endorsing the demand of Azaadi > > >> for Kashmir, reminded the audience of > > > the need for the people of Kashmir not > > >> to be selective about justice > > > and injustice, that they must find methods to > > >> forge webs of > > > solidarity with all the suffering and oppressed peoples of > > >> India. She > > > was heckled and rudely interrupted by a small group of Indian > > >> > > > nationalists in the audience, who repeatedly raised the situation of > > >> > > > Kashmiri Pandits, Arundhati Roy, when she was able to resume > > > speaking, > > >> spoke unambiguously about the fact that she considered the > > > situation of > > >> Kashmiri Pandits to be a tragedy. She was echoed in this > > > sentiment later by > > >> Syed Ali Shah Geelani who said that he personally > > > stands guarantee for the > > >> safety and security of all minorities, > > > Hindu, Sikh, Buddhists, Christians > > >> and others in a future free > > > Kashmir. He implored the Pandits to return to > > >> Kashmir, and said, that > > > they are an integral part of Kashmiri society. He > > >> spoke of the need > > > for ensuring that a free Kashmir was a just Kashmir, and > > >> that justice > > > meant that the freedom, safety and security of all minorities, > > >> of > > > their property, their places of worship, their freedom of conscience > > > be > > >> given the utmost importance. He reminded the assembled people that > > >> > > > throughout these turbulent months, the people of Kashmir have > > > continued to > > >> be hospitable to Hindu pilgrims, have set up > > > ŒLangars¹ (Kitchens) for them, > > >> and have cared for them when they have > > > fallen sick, despite being at the > > >> receiving end of the violence of > > > the Indian state. > > > > > > I spoke briefly, about > > >> the fact that I was proud that so many of us > > > had gathered in my city, Delhi, > > >> putting aside the abstraction of our > > > politically determined, state given > > >> construct of citizenship, and > > > standing, here, now, on the grounds of a > > >> concrete human solidarity > > > with the people of Kashmir. I spoke of the fact > > >> that there are > > > significant voices, even in the mainstream media who have > > >> been > > > compelled to recognize the urgency of the situation in Kashmir, by > > >> > > > the sheer determination of the youth of Kashmir to get the news of > > > what is > > >> happening in Kashmir out to the world. I spoke of the role > > > played by > > >> facebook sites like ŒAalaw¹ and blogs, and the fact that > > > the people of India > > >> and the world can no longer be kept in the dark > > > by a pliant media, as > > >> happened in 1989-90. I spoke of the ways in > > > which the viral circulation of > > >> leaked videos of the humiliation of > > > Kashmiri youth on facebook pages and > > >> online fora have successfully > > > shown us what the reality of Kashmir is today. > > >> I urged media > > > professionals in the mainstream media to introspect and > > >> reflect on > > > the role that they may be compelled, against their own > > >> professional > > > ehtics, to play in the pyschological and propaganda war that > > >> the > > > Indian state is currently conducting. I spoke of my sense of shame > > > and > > >> remorse at the evasive and dissimulating role played by sections > > > of the > > >> mainstream media in India while reporting (or not reporting) > > > atrocities that > > >> make even the images from Abu Gharaib pale in > > > comparison. > > > > > > I am ashamed to > > >> say, that despite my respectful plea to the media to > > > play a responsible role > > >> in their reportage of Kashmir related > > > matters, major channels like Times Now > > >> and NDTV once again let the > > > truth down in their reports on the days events. > > >> NDTV saw it fit to > > > simply report > > > > > > an incident of Œshoe throwing at SAS > > >> Geelani¹. A shoe (or some other > > > indeterminate object) was indeed thrown, but > > >> not at Geelani. It > > > landed on a bottle of water in front of another speaker, > > >> while he was > > > speaking. So let¹s at least set that record straight. Arnab > > >> Goswami > > > of Times Now, while conducting what he likes to call a Œdebate; on > > >> > > > the programme called ŒNews Hour¹ (neither News, nor just an Hour) > > >> > > > repeatedly uttered hysterical untruths, such as the presumption that > > > ŒNo > > >> State permits the advocacy of secession and self determination¹ > > > and that a > > >> meeting such as the one I participated in yesterday, were > > > it to take place, > > >> say, in the United States, would immediately lead > > > to all speakers present > > >> (including, presumably, myself) in being > > > imprisoned on charges of sedition. > > >> I have to inform my readers here, > > > that on both counts, Arnab Goswami is > > >> wrong. Seriously wrong. Either > > > he is a misinformed idiot. Or he knows that > > >> he is wrong, and is lying > > > to his public through his teeth. We can choose to > > >> be generous about > > > how he would interpret his motives, and assume he is > > >> simply a fool. > > > > > > Goswami, consequently demanded to know why we were not > > >> immediately > > > imprisoned under section 124 of the Indian penal code. Arnab > > >> Goswami > > > needs to be reminded, that in United States law, the provisions of > > >> > > > the Sedition Act are applicable only in times when the country is in > > > a > > >> declared state of war. And therefore his analogy does not apply, as > > > I am not > > >> aware that the Indian republic is currently in a declared > > > state of war, as > > >> per international law, (unless Arnab Goswami has > > > lost his marbles to the > > >> extent that he confuses the shadow boxing > > > that he does on television with a > > >> war declared by a state under > > > international law). That, furthermore, the > > >> provisions of the US > > > Sedition Law have been declared substantially void by > > >> the US Supreme > > > Court ruling in the Brandenberg vs. Ohio (1969) judgement, > > >> and of > > > course, by the US Supreme court guaranteeing the primacy of free > > >> > > > speech, including Œseditious¹ speech, including the burning of the > > > United > > >> States flag, under the provisions of the first amendment to > > > the US > > >> constitution. > > > > > > There have been repeated attempts made to pass a law that would > > >> make > > > Œflag burning¹ an offence under US Law. Fortunately, (for liberty and > > >> > > > free speech) as of now, these attempts have not come to pass, and > > >> > > > currently, under US Law it is perfectly legal to advocate self- > > >> > > > determination and secwssion, if done peacefully, even to the extent > > > of > > >> burning or destroying or descerating symbols of state authority > > > like the > > >> national flag. Furthermore several constiutions, such as the > > > constitutions > > >> of Canada, Ethipopia, Austria and France, implicitly or > > > explicitly, provide > > >> for a legal expression of right to self > > > determination, provided it is > > >> exercised in a peaceful and democratic > > > manner, as part of the freedom of > > >> expression principle. > > > > > > But the point that needs to be made is larger than > > >> whether or not > > > Arnab Goswami is a fool and a charlatan. Yesterday¹s meeting > > >> was a > > > historic opportunity for his channel, and indeed for all of the > > >> > > > Indian mainstream media, to report and take cognizance of the fact > > > that > > >> there is a significant section of Indian public opinion that is > > > actually in > > >> favour of ŒAzaadi¹ in Kashmir. I am not suggesting that > > > this section > > >> constitutes an overwhelming majority at present (that > > > might change) but, > > >> that it does exist, and that it presents, cogent, > > > precise arguments, that > > >> cannot be dismissed, (as is being done by > > > Times Now and its ilk) by invoking > > >> the spectre of Œterrorism¹. There > > > is hardly any Œterrorism¹ in Kashmir today > > >> (if we don¹t count the > > > Indian state and its terror) . The 111 people who > > >> have died in the > > > past months, have not died at the hands of non-state > > >> insurgents, they > > > have died, unarmed, facing the bullets of the Indian state. > > >> The > > > movement for Azaadi in Kashmir has left the culture of the gun and > > > the > > >> grenade behind. It fights today without weapons, armed only with > > > courage. If > > >> there is a terrorist in Kashmir today, he wears the > > > uniform of the forces of > > >> the Indian state, and carries the weapons > > > supplied by the arsenal of the > > >> Indian state. To discount the voices > > > that rise in dissent against this > > >> reality as Œterrorist sympathizers¹ > > > as Arnab Goswami has done on his channel > > >> is to insult reality. > > > > > > Syed Ali Shah Geelani spoke of the bonds of insaaniyat > > >> that tie the > > > peoples of Kashmir and India yesterday. I heard him say this. I > > >> was > > > barely five feet away from him. I heard him speak of his regard and > > >> > > > respect for the minorities in Jammu and Kashmir. I do not agree with > > > much > > >> of what Geelani Saheb represents politically, or ideologically, > > > but I have > > >> no hesitation in saying that what he said yesterday, was > > > surprising for its > > >> gentleness, for its consideration, for its > > > moderation, even for its > > >> liberality and open heartedness. This should > > > have been big news. That Syed > > >> Ali Shah Geelani said that he wants to > > > see a strong and resurgent India. I > > >> heard him say this. And was this > > > reported by anyone? NO. Was it reported > > >> that he was cheered when he > > > said this ? NO. Was it reported that no one had > > >> any thing angry to > > > say against the struggling peoples of India? NO. Was it > > >> reported > > > that SAS Geelani expilicity said that he is NOT against dialogue, > > >> > > > provided that the five point formula put forward by him (none of > > > whose > > >> provisions ­ 1. acceptance of the disputed nature of the > > > territory of Jammu > > >> and Kashmir, 2. repeal of AFSPA and other black > > > laws, 3. release of > > >> political detenues and prisoners, 4. withdrawal > > > of the disproportionate > > >> presence of the armed forces and 5. > > > punishment to those gulty of taking life > > >> in the past few months ­ > > > require the government of India to think Œoutside¹ > > >> the framework of > > > the Indian Constitution) are accepted as the basis of the > > >> dialogue? NO. > > > > > > Don¹t you think that it makes BIG news that the tallest > > >> separatist > > > leader in Jammu and Kashmir actually, in a moderate voice, spells > > >> > > > out, in Delhi, the fundamental basis of a considered dialogue with > > > the > > >> Indian state, while offering it a chance to do so on bases that > > > are > > >> absolutely reasonable and sound, and honourable to all concerned? > > > Do you not > > >> think that a responsible media organization would consider > > > this a scoop, a > > >> major news stor? But that is not what happened. > > > > > > Instead, Times Now, (and I > > >> am waiting for the morning newspapers to > > > see how far this muck has spread) > > >> chose to focus on the deliberately > > > staged disruption of a handful of agent > > >> provocateurs, our familiar > > > posse of self styled patriotic champions of the > > >> continued occupation > > > of Kashmir, who posed for the camera, hyperventilated, > > >> and occupied, > > > perhaps no more than five percent of the attention of several > > >> patient > > > hours. If you saw the news reports on Times Now¹s ŒNEWSHOUR¹ > > >> > > > programme, you would have thought that all of what happened was their > > >> > > > presence as a Œprotest¹ against the meeting. As someone who was > > > present > > >> through much of this, I am totally, utterly aghast that a lie > > > of such > > >> magnificient proportions could be dished out with such ease. > > > I am aghast > > >> that Aditya Raj Kaul who was one of the panel invited by > > > Arnab Goswami to > > >> the Times Now Newshour show could lie with a > > > straight face by saying that > > >> there was no attempt made to Œdisrupt¹ > > > the meeting by those who were there > > >> to represent his point of view. > > > > > > Someday, I hope that all of these people, the > > >> Arnab Goswamis of the > > > world, find reason to repent for continuing to keep > > >> the people of > > > India and Kashmir in the dark. They had better think hard, > > >> because > > > the day when they will have cause to repent, is not far. Azaadi will > > >> > > > come to Kashmir, and with it, a glimmer of Azaadi will be the share > > > of > > >> those people in India who stood by their Kashmiri friends, in > > > their darkest > > >> hour.Going by what I witnessed yesterday, there will be > > > many such people, so > > >> Arnab Goswami and his ilk had better start > > > practicing how to say sorry, > > >> several hundred times a > > >> day. > > > > > > > > > > > > best, > > > > > > > > > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > --------------------------------------------- > > > > > > Shudd > > >> habrata Sengupta > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an > > >> open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To > > >> subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe > > >> in > > >> the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: > > >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > >> > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe > > > in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From poojashali at gmail.com Fri Oct 22 18:17:50 2010 From: poojashali at gmail.com (pooja shali) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 18:17:50 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Garden of Solitude - A Novel about Kashmir (Political Turmoil, Militancy, Migration of Pandits and Exile) In-Reply-To: References: <229292.13010.qm@web51904.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <884351.3420.qm@web55708.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <5F288F16-655C-4D36-A879-DA9CA20CCAC1@sarai.net> Message-ID: Siddhartha Gigoo is the author of The Garden of Solitude. Might make an interesting read for everyone. Thank you Regards From gowharfazili at yahoo.com Fri Oct 22 18:32:38 2010 From: gowharfazili at yahoo.com (gowhar fazli) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 06:02:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Terrorist Maoist Sympathizer Arundhati Roy promotes secession In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <442869.71269.qm@web114705.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I agree that this is a blatant lie. She said the only Indians who support the cause of occupied Kashmir are the bhooka nanga Hindustanis whom the Kashmiris should also support in their struggles. I think this guy Deepak K Jha ought to be put on trial on charges of libel and an example be made out of one such planted communalists. I am willing to lend all support and solidarity for such a just initiative. --- On Fri, 10/22/10, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Terrorist Maoist Sympathizer Arundhati Roy promotes secession > To: "Aditya Raj Kaul" > Cc: "sarai list" > Date: Friday, October 22, 2010, 2:09 PM > This is a preposterous lie, and the > author of the so called 'report' in the Pioneer can be sued > for libel. I can vouch for this as i was there. Arundhati's > speech was recorded, and anyone who is interested can have > access to the recording. > > Arundhati Roy in fact said - that "the one slogan that she > heard sometimes in Kashmir that deeply saddened her was > 'Bhookha Nanga Hindustan, Jaan se Pyaara Pakistan'. (India > is Naked and Hungrly, Pakistan is dearer to us than Life'). > > She categorically voiced her opposition to such a slogan, > in fact she invoked it in order to strongly condemn such a > sentiment, and went on to say that the people of Kashmir > must realize that it is the 'bhookha - nanga' , the naked > and the hungry, the poor and the oppressed of India, who > people in Kashmir must stand in solidarity with. This was > enthusiastically applauded. She called upon the struggling > people of Kashmir NOT to be selective in their choice of > injustices to struggle against. She called for a solidarity > between struggles for justice in Kashmir, and in India, and > the world. To suggest that she gave a call for 'Azadi' from > 'bhookha nanga' India, is to twist her words, and to say the > virtually the very opposite of what she meant - which was a > joining of hands of the struggles of the working poor  > for justice in India and the struggles for liberty in > Kashmir. > > Aditya Raj Kaul, by offering up this disinformation, has > once again proved his true character on this list. I think > this is a matter of shame, and should be condemned by all. > It is one thing to be critical of a viewpoint, which > everyone has a right to be, and it is quite another to > disinform and lie. > > best > > Shuddha > > > > On 22-Oct-10, at 1:44 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > > > *Arundhati promotes secession* > > * > > October 22, 2010* > > > > *Deepak K Jha | New Delhi* > > * > > The Pioneer > > > > Link - http://www.dailypioneer.com/291392/Arundhati-promotes-secession.html > > * > > *Says ‘Kashmir should get Azadi from bhookhe-nange > Hindustan’* > > > > Kashmir should get Azadi from bhookhe-nange > Hindustan,” said Arundhati Roy > > at a seminar where the Maoists hosted Kashmir > secessionist leader Syed Ali > > Shah Geelani, which witnessed large scale protests by > Kashmiri Pandits. A > > large number of protesters were detained at the behest > of Parliament House > > attack accused SAR Gilani, who moderated the seminar > promoting secession in > > the heart of the national Capital on Thursday. > > > > The seminar was disrupted many a time when > author-activist Arundhati Roy, a > > known Maoist sympathiser, openly preached secession > while expressing her > > views and urging the audience comprising Kashmiri > youth, students from AMU > > and also from DU to stand up and fight for the cause > of a separate Kashmir > > and to get a fair play in the name of “Idea of > Justice”. > > > > “India needs Azadi from Kashmir and Kashmir from > India. It is a good debate > > that has started. We must deepen this conversation and > am happy that young > > people are getting involved for this cause which is > their future. Indian > > Government is a hollow super power and I disassociate > with it,” Roy said > > amid great applause from separatists. “Earlier we > used to talk about our > > head held high and now we lay prostrate to the US,” > she added. Referring to > > one of her earlier writings, Roy mentioned that > Kashmiris have to decide > > whether they want to be with or get separated from > “bhookhe-nange Hindustan > > where more than 830 million people live on Rs 20 per > day only”. > > > > Espousing the separatist cause, Roy also said that in > the early 90s India > > opened two gates - one for the Babri Masjid issue and > the other for the > > economy. “We ushered in two kinds of > totalitarianism. One the Hindu > > totalitarians and the other economic totalitarian,” > she said. > > > > The convention on ‘Azadi — The Only Way’ > organised by Committee for the > > Release of Political Prisoners (CRPP), was being > attended by a number of > > sympathisers of Kashmiri separatists and Naxalites. > The moment Geelani > > arrived to speak, the protesters numbering around 70 > shouted slogans asking > > him to leave along with those demanding separate > Kashmir. Amid pandemonium > > inside the LTG Auditorium, the protesters shouted > slogans like ‘Bharat Mata > > Ki Jai’ and ‘Vande Mataram’ several times when > various speakers expressed > > their views and opinions driving towards a separate > Kashmir. > > > > At least 50 of the protesters, including those from > Roots to Kashmir and > > Panun Kashmir were detained by the police and released > late in the evening. > > At the time of the protest, SAR Geelani, a lecturer in > Delhi University who > > was accused in the Parliament attack case but later > set free, was speaking > > on the topic. Besides Geelani, other participants in > the seminar included > > writer and activist Arundhati Roy, senior journalist > Najeeb Mubaraki, > > Telangana activist Varvara Rao, president of the CRPP > Gursharan Singh > > (represented by his daughter due to Singh’s ill > health), media critic > > Shuddabrata Sengupta, and separatists from Manipur and > Nagaland in the > > six-hour-long programme. > > > > “This is atrocious. It is happening right in the > Capital of the country when > > a few people are talking to break the secular ethos of > the country. We stand > > for united India. I do not know why the country’s > administration is > > pampering them in the name of Islam. Kashmir belongs > to all, including the > > Kashmiri Pandits and we will do all to safeguard that > interest,” said Aditya > > Raj Kaul, one of the protesters who led a group of > young students and > > professionals condemning the seminar called and > moderated by Gilani and a > > group of Naxal sympathisers. > > > > Emotions erupted and tempers ran high amid a group of > Kashmiri Pandits there > > to listen to the opinion when Roy said that: “I am > also aware of the stories > > about Kashmiri Pandits. I must tell you that Panun > Kashmir is a false > > group”. Taken aback by this statement, 65-year-old > Nancy Kaul stood up and > > questioned the sanctity of Roy’s statement. Kaul was > joined by a few others > > echoing the sentiments of Kashmiri Pandits and other > displaced persons from > > Jammu and Kashmir. Nancy was also attacked by a young > person, probably from > > the north-east who also misbehaved with her and threw > the paper material > > Kaul was carrying with her. “Jis thali mein kha > rahey hain usi thali eein > > ched kar rahey hain yain yes log,” Kaul and others > shouted pointing towards > > Roy and other speakers. The police had to be called > again to pacify the > > small group of protesters and a large group of members > advocating Azadi. > > > > While urging Kashmiris to boycott interlocutors, Syed > Ali Shah Geelani > > rejected the eight-point agenda rolled out by the > Centre for defusing crisis > > in the Valley. Though saying that the people of > Kashmir are not against any > > dialogue, the Hurriyat leader said the talks should be > on the core issue and > > Pakistan should also be involved in the discussions. > “The dialogue should > > not be bilateral. India, Pakistan and representatives > of people of Jammu and > > Kashmir should sit together with the reference of > sacrifices made by > > Kashmiris during the last 63 years. Indian Government > has to accept our > > five-point agenda, then only we will initiate talks > with interlocutors, > > otherwise I ask Kashmiris to boycott them,” said the > separatist leader. > > > > The hardline leader added that since 1947, 150 such > dialogues have been held > > but without any result, we will not participate in any > discussions until our > > five-point agenda is accepted by India. “Our five > points are -- first Indian > > security forces should be withdrawn from J&K under > UN supervision. Political > > prisoners be released, cases should be registered > against the killers of 111 > > innocent people, who had been killed during the last > four months. Remember, > > we are not against Indian or India, we want the rights > to > > self-determination,” said Geelani. > > > > SAR Geelani, who moderated the session, said the > demand of Kashmir Azadi not > > only meant the Kashmir Valley but the entire Jammu and > Kashmir, Ladakh, > > Muzzafarabad, Baltistan and Mirpur. > > > > Dal Khalsa leader Kanwar Pal Singh used the occasion > to criticise the > > Government, including Prime Minister Manmohan whom he > labeled is anti-Sikh. > > He also took the opportunity to criticise the Indian > judiciary and the > > audience yelled “Shame Shame India, Shame Shame > Courts Here”. “The Supreme > > Court and High Courts are for the bahu-betis only. > What a ridiculous > > judgement was given by the Supreme Court regarding the > Parliament attack > > case and observations made on Afzal Guru. The recent > Ayodhya case is a > > stupid judgement in which facts were not taken into > account but only faith > > ka khaas khayal rakha gaya.” > > > > The Naga and Manipuri leaders said that like Manipur > and Nagaland, Kashmir > > was also never part of India. “To be a part during > freedom struggle does not > > mean that we express solidarity to be united with > India. We also need > > freedom as we were free before 1947. What is the > problem to India when we > > say we want freedom,” said a speaker from Naga > People’s Movement for Human > > Rights and Justice. > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From havanmunmaani at yahoo.in Fri Oct 22 20:45:28 2010 From: havanmunmaani at yahoo.in (Havan Munmaani) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 20:45:28 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Terrorist Maoist Sympathizer Arundhati Roy promotes secession In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <186558.96413.qm@web95401.mail.in2.yahoo.com> I'm just amused that Aditya Raj Kaul still pretends that The Pioneer is still a newspaper. He must be the only person in the world who reads it. But then again, as the "India Editor" of the "Indian, Australia", Mr Kaul cannot afford to discriminate against newspapers that no one reads. The other thing I dont get what everyone is so scared about. Arundhati says "Azaadi" - so what yaar? Is the fear that too many people will find the call to secession too appealing? Of course, the answer then can only be to clamp down further on people who are already chafing under the writ of the state. It makes complete sense - for managing such a brilliant, widely read and non partisan paper, full of such insight, I think we should nominate the editor of The Pioneer to the Rajya Sabha. Hold on wait; Dammit, the BJP beat us to it. Koi nahin yaar, Perhaps Mr Kaul and his fellow readers of choice could look to an intellectual from another great power for advice on when to let go. Presenting Mr Rick Astley - world famous political theorist from UK. To quote from his Most Popular Work on secession, freedom and persistence, the haunting prose of "Never Gonna Give You Up": "We're no strangers to love You know the rules and so do I A full commitment's what I'm thinking of You wouldn't get this from any other guy " Never gonna give you up Never gonna let you down Never gonna run around and desert you Never gonna make you cry Never gonna say goodbye Never gonna tell a lie and hurt you" Once you learn the dance moves too, I suggest you approach the secessionists once more. Me thinks they will immediately assimilate. and remember, Havan loves you, Havan Munmaani Full time Patriot and Nationalist --- On Fri, 22/10/10, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > From: Aditya Raj Kaul > Subject: [Reader-list] Terrorist Maoist Sympathizer Arundhati Roy promotes secession > To: "sarai list" > Date: Friday, 22 October, 2010, 8:14 AM > *Arundhati promotes secession* > * > October 22, 2010* > > *Deepak K Jha | New Delhi* > * > The Pioneer > > Link - http://www.dailypioneer.com/291392/Arundhati-promotes-secession.html > * > *Says ‘Kashmir should get Azadi from bhookhe-nange > Hindustan’* > > Kashmir should get Azadi from bhookhe-nange Hindustan,” > said Arundhati Roy > at a seminar where the Maoists hosted Kashmir secessionist > leader Syed Ali > Shah Geelani, which witnessed large scale protests by > Kashmiri Pandits. A > large number of protesters were detained at the behest of > Parliament House > attack accused SAR Gilani, who moderated the seminar > promoting secession in > the heart of the national Capital on Thursday. > > The seminar was disrupted many a time when author-activist > Arundhati Roy, a > known Maoist sympathiser, openly preached secession while > expressing her > views and urging the audience comprising Kashmiri youth, > students from AMU > and also from DU to stand up and fight for the cause of a > separate Kashmir > and to get a fair play in the name of “Idea of > Justice”. > > “India needs Azadi from Kashmir and Kashmir from India. > It is a good debate > that has started. We must deepen this conversation and am > happy that young > people are getting involved for this cause which is their > future. Indian > Government is a hollow super power and I disassociate with > it,” Roy said > amid great applause from separatists. “Earlier we used to > talk about our > head held high and now we lay prostrate to the US,” she > added. Referring to > one of her earlier writings, Roy mentioned that Kashmiris > have to decide > whether they want to be with or get separated from > “bhookhe-nange Hindustan > where more than 830 million people live on Rs 20 per day > only”. > > Espousing the separatist cause, Roy also said that in the > early 90s India > opened two gates - one for the Babri Masjid issue and the > other for the > economy. “We ushered in two kinds of totalitarianism. One > the Hindu > totalitarians and the other economic totalitarian,” she > said. > > The convention on ‘Azadi — The Only Way’ organised by > Committee for the > Release of Political Prisoners (CRPP), was being attended > by a number of > sympathisers of Kashmiri separatists and Naxalites. The > moment Geelani > arrived to speak, the protesters numbering around 70 > shouted slogans asking > him to leave along with those demanding separate Kashmir. > Amid pandemonium > inside the LTG Auditorium, the protesters shouted slogans > like ‘Bharat Mata > Ki Jai’ and ‘Vande Mataram’ several times when > various speakers expressed > their views and opinions driving towards a separate > Kashmir. > > At least 50 of the protesters, including those from Roots > to Kashmir and > Panun Kashmir were detained by the police and released late > in the evening. > At the time of the protest, SAR Geelani, a lecturer in > Delhi University who > was accused in the Parliament attack case but later set > free, was speaking > on the topic. Besides Geelani, other participants in the > seminar included > writer and activist Arundhati Roy, senior journalist Najeeb > Mubaraki, > Telangana activist Varvara Rao, president of the CRPP > Gursharan Singh > (represented by his daughter due to Singh’s ill health), > media critic > Shuddabrata Sengupta, and separatists from Manipur and > Nagaland in the > six-hour-long programme. > > “This is atrocious. It is happening right in the Capital > of the country when > a few people are talking to break the secular ethos of the > country. We stand > for united India. I do not know why the country’s > administration is > pampering them in the name of Islam. Kashmir belongs to > all, including the > Kashmiri Pandits and we will do all to safeguard that > interest,” said Aditya > Raj Kaul, one of the protesters who led a group of young > students and > professionals condemning the seminar called and moderated > by Gilani and a > group of Naxal sympathisers. > > Emotions erupted and tempers ran high amid a group of > Kashmiri Pandits there > to listen to the opinion when Roy said that: “I am also > aware of the stories > about Kashmiri Pandits. I must tell you that Panun Kashmir > is a false > group”. Taken aback by this statement, 65-year-old Nancy > Kaul stood up and > questioned the sanctity of Roy’s statement. Kaul was > joined by a few others > echoing the sentiments of Kashmiri Pandits and other > displaced persons from > Jammu and Kashmir. Nancy was also attacked by a young > person, probably from > the north-east who also misbehaved with her and threw the > paper material > Kaul was carrying with her. “Jis thali mein kha rahey > hain usi thali eein > ched kar rahey hain yain yes log,” Kaul and others > shouted pointing towards > Roy and other speakers. The police had to be called again > to pacify the > small group of protesters and a large group of members > advocating Azadi. > > While urging Kashmiris to boycott interlocutors, Syed Ali > Shah Geelani > rejected the eight-point agenda rolled out by the Centre > for defusing crisis > in the Valley. Though saying that the people of Kashmir are > not against any > dialogue, the Hurriyat leader said the talks should be on > the core issue and > Pakistan should also be involved in the discussions. “The > dialogue should > not be bilateral. India, Pakistan and representatives of > people of Jammu and > Kashmir should sit together with the reference of > sacrifices made by > Kashmiris during the last 63 years. Indian Government has > to accept our > five-point agenda, then only we will initiate talks with > interlocutors, > otherwise I ask Kashmiris to boycott them,” said the > separatist leader. > > The hardline leader added that since 1947, 150 such > dialogues have been held > but without any result, we will not participate in any > discussions until our > five-point agenda is accepted by India. “Our five points > are -- first Indian > security forces should be withdrawn from J&K under UN > supervision. Political > prisoners be released, cases should be registered against > the killers of 111 > innocent people, who had been killed during the last four > months. Remember, > we are not against Indian or India, we want the rights to > self-determination,” said Geelani. > > SAR Geelani, who moderated the session, said the demand of > Kashmir Azadi not > only meant the Kashmir Valley but the entire Jammu and > Kashmir, Ladakh, > Muzzafarabad, Baltistan and Mirpur. > > Dal Khalsa leader Kanwar Pal Singh used the occasion to > criticise the > Government, including Prime Minister Manmohan whom he > labeled is anti-Sikh. > He also took the opportunity to criticise the Indian > judiciary and the > audience yelled “Shame Shame India, Shame Shame Courts > Here”. “The Supreme > Court and High Courts are for the bahu-betis only. What a > ridiculous > judgement was given by the Supreme Court regarding the > Parliament attack > case and observations made on Afzal Guru. The recent > Ayodhya case is a > stupid judgement in which facts were not taken into account > but only faith > ka khaas khayal rakha gaya.” > > The Naga and Manipuri leaders said that like Manipur and > Nagaland, Kashmir > was also never part of India. “To be a part during > freedom struggle does not > mean that we express solidarity to be united with India. We > also need > freedom as we were free before 1947. What is the problem to > India when we > say we want freedom,” said a speaker from Naga People’s > Movement for Human > Rights and Justice. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From taraprakash at gmail.com Fri Oct 22 21:49:38 2010 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 12:19:38 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Geelani announced one Article of the Constitutionof Free Kashmir - its "Liquor Policy" References: <655243.50391.qm@web112614.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <963D2A87-EB89-41A4-906B-649EC4B7FD08@sarai.net> Message-ID: <0CF11F1FC9D3475789B2BFA4AE9A8FAA@tara> The point probably the mailer was making and you are missing is that the assumption is that SASG's "free" Kashmir will be primarily an Islamic state that will allow some unislamic things to happen. This is the same vision of Hindu Rashtra that Advani was selling to Indians when BJP was being seen as taking power away in India. That you don't necessarily agree with SASG makes no freaking sense to me especially when you have unequivocally blatantly unskeptically defended and justified SASG on this forum. By becoming a SASG stooge you have joined the ranks of RSS. By putting SASG and MK Gandhi in the same sentence you killed the embodiment of nonviolence once more, and joined RSS ranks in more than one way. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" To: "cashmeeri" Cc: "Sarai" Sent: Friday, October 22, 2010 5:33 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Geelani announced one Article of the Constitutionof Free Kashmir - its "Liquor Policy" > > > Well, on these grounds, Syed Ali Shah Geelani is more moderate than > Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi, who advocated total prohibition, (regardless > of whether one was or was not a believer in any religion) and was even > against the drinking of tea. Does that mean that we think that his vision > of 'Ram Rajya' would be identical to what Aalok Aima considers to be an > Islamic state? > > Incidentally, the state of Gujarat, has consistently imposed total > prohibition in deference to M.K. Gandhi's ideas on prohibition for as > long as it has existed as a state of the Indian Union. So, as per Mr. > Aima's suggestion, would we now be prepared to admit that Mr. Modi's > Gujarat (and the Gujarat of all his predecessors) is the closest we have > come to having an 'islamic State' in India. Oh no, the closest we > actually came to being an Islamic state in India was actually during > Morarji Desai;s prime ministership, when some of the current champions of > Hindutva were in power, when total prohibition was imposed on all of > India. In fact we came even closer than the vision of SAS Geelani, which > at least allows the 'non-believer' his or her daily tipple? Incidentally, > Mr. Geelani went on to suggest that if a bottle of alchohl belongiing to > a non believer was willingly or unwillingly damaged by a Muslim, then the > state would have to compensate the non-believer for that damage. I > haven;t quite heard of an Islamic state willing to pay people to drink > alchohl (if their bottle has been damaged). He went on to quote an > 'aayat' that said - "Muslims, do not insult even the idols (but) of the > idol worshippers, for they will insult your God in return" and that the > obligations of humanity are binding in our relations even with those we > consider to be our enemies. Interesting stuff, coming as it does from > the man who is so offen held up as a figure of inflexible bigotry. > > By the way, none of this means that I agree with Mr. SAS Geelani;s vision > of the future. I am merely stating the facts that I know and witnessed. > > best > > Shuddha > > > On 22-Oct-10, at 2:38 PM, cashmeeri wrote: > >> >> Geelani announced one Article of the Constitution of Free Kashmir - its >> "Liquor Policy": >> >> http://www.prokerala.com/news/articles/a176267.html >> >> "The system of justice in an independent Jammu and Kashmir would be such >> that even liquor would not be banned for non-Muslims. It would be >> prohibited fo......r the Muslim majority but if minorities feel they >> want to have liquor they would be allowed to consume as their right," >> >> Hello!!!! Hello!!!! >> I thought it was going to be a Secular Free Kashmir. This sounds >> suspiciously like an Islamic Free Kashmir. >> >> Interesting prospect : Free Kashmir ..... no Non-Muslims ..... no Liquor >> >> Maybe it is the "Tourism Policy" >> >> ............. aalok aima >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From peter.ksmtf at gmail.com Fri Oct 22 23:44:27 2010 From: peter.ksmtf at gmail.com (T Peter) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 23:44:27 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] NFF, KSMTF reject Draft CRZ notification In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: NFF, KSMTF reject Draft CRZ notification Express News ServiceFirst Published : 21 Oct 2010 THIRUVANANTHAPURAM: The National Fish Workers Forum (NFF) and the Kerala Swathanthra Matsya Thozhilali Federation (KSMTF) rejected the draft Coastal Zone Regulation (CRZ) Notification-2010. In memorandums submitted to Ministry of Environment and Forest, President Pratibha Patil, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and UPA Chairperson Sonia Ghandhi, they have listed out reasons for the rejection of the draft CRZ notification. Some of the reasons are: (1) The draft notification is only marginally different from the pre-draft, which was rejected by the fishing communities. (2) The NFF had strongly argued in favour of going back to the basics of the original 1991 notification, which was based on the fundamental principle that only those activities should be permitted in the CRZ, which require the waterfront and foreshore facilities. Unfortunately, the draft continues to legitimise all the activities, which do not have such a justification and have crept into the notification over the years. (3) In addition to retaining all past dilutions to the CRZ, the new draft also adds new activities that are permissible. Some of the new additions include ‘roads on stilts’,including in mangrove areas of CRZ-I. (4) An important suggestion to strengthen the CRZ is to look into cumulative impacts of permissible projects before according sanction to new projects. The Swaminathan Committee had recommended a cumulative impact study on ports and a moratorium till that is done. Unfortunately, the Ministry has not done any cumulative study and has come up with a peculiar formulation to permit ports in ‘stable coasts’ that are not subject to erosion. From adityarajbaul at gmail.com Sat Oct 23 00:48:15 2010 From: adityarajbaul at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Baul) Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 00:48:15 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] MI officials in soup over planting RDX sand Message-ID: MI officials in soup over planting RDX sand Press Trust Of India Jammu, October 17, 2010 http://www.hindustantimes.com/MI-officials-in-soup-over-planting-RDX-sand/Article1-614172.aspx After controversial fake encounters, some army officials of Northern and Western Commands are embroiled in a controversy where a "source" and an ex-army personnel allegedly in conspiracy with the Military Intelligence officials planted sand and passed it off as deadly RDX explosives to earn cash rewards. The nefarious nexus emerged when police recovered a consignment of apple boxes near MLA's hostel in Jammu in which a cavity had been created to store a black material which was being passed off as explosives. The boxes had detonators attached to it, triggering panic on October eight. However, after a detailed forensic analysis, the supposed-to-be explosive material turned out to be sand which was attached to wires and detonators that were brought from stone quarries to give a realistic look of an improvised explosive device (IED), sources in the Union Home Ministry said quoting interrogation of three of the accused arrested by the police. The accused -- Mehboob Dar, an ex-serviceman Ram Krishen and Mohammed Rafi -- were picked up after a stone quarry dealer cracked during questioning and told the police that he had been supplying detonators to Dar earlier also, the sources said. Dar's arrest showed that sand was planted in connivance with some army officials for monetary consideration and also claimed that the rate for planting of fake explosives at Jammu was fixed at Rs 60,000. Northern Command spokesperson J S Brar said, "It is requested that Western Command be approached for the same, as it does not pertains to our area." Efforts to seek a response from the Western Command did not fructify as there was no reply to an SMS sent to the Brigadier General Staff of the Command. The incident comes four months after three youths were gunned down allegedly in cold blood by some army officials in Machil sector of North Kashmir. The state police has filed a chargesheet against an army colonel, two majors and six soldiers. The arrest of Ram Krishen has raised eyebrows among the central security agencies as he has been instrumental in recovery of explosives for the Northern Command. During the probe carried out discreetly, it has been found that all such explosives were shown as "destroyed insitu" (destroyed on spot). Dar and Rafiq are special police officers with the Jammu and Kashmir Police who have been since suspended by the Government. From adityarajbaul at gmail.com Sat Oct 23 00:49:28 2010 From: adityarajbaul at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Baul) Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 00:49:28 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Anguished SC pulls up defence ministry over illegal sale of arms, affidavit Message-ID: Anguished SC pulls up defence ministry over illegal sale of arms, affidavit October 22, 2010 18:49 IST http://news.rediff.com/report/2010/oct/22/anguished-sc-pulls-up-defence-ministry-over-illegal-sale-of-arms-affidavit.htm The Supreme Court takes umbrage to a junior officer filing an affidavit on behalf of the Defence Ministry over involvement of army and civilian officers in the illegal sale of arms Dubbing as "very serious" the alleged involvement of army and civilian officers in the illegal sale of arms, the Supreme Court, Friday, took umbrage to a junior officer filing an affidavit on behalf of the Defence Ministry, which was asked to submit it afresh. "Is the Ministry of Defence shirking to file an affidavit in the matter," a Bench comprising Justices B Sudershan Reddy and S S Nijjar said and wondered whether the weapons have landed in the hands of "dacoits". The Bench was anguished that the affidavit on behalf of the Ministry of Defence was filed by an army officer of the rank of Captain. "On such a serious issue how can an officer of the rank of Captain file an affidavit on behalf of the Ministry of Defence," the Bench asked adding there was a need to maintain some "decorum" and a higher authority should have filed the affidavit. "It is a very serious matter. Where are those weapons? Are those in the hands of dacoits?" the Bench said while expressing its disappointment over the manner in which government handled the entire issue. SC not satisfied with affidavit "We are not satisfied with the affidavit filed on behalf of the Ministry of Defence. Accordingly, a proper affidavit has to be filed by the ministry," the Bench said and granted four weeks to the Centre to file a fresh affidavit. The Bench said only after going through a proper affidavit, would it pass any directions on the PIL filed by advocate Arvind Kumar Sharma who has sought an inquiry either by the CBI or a former judge of the Supreme Court into the alleged racket involving illegal sale of arms and issuance of licenses. At the outset, Sharma claimed that the affidavit by the Centre was a total "eyewash" as it has not named any senior officers of the rank of Brigadier and Major General, who were allegedly part of the racket. Additional Solicitor General Vivek Tankha described the issue as "serious" but maintained that the PIL was for publicity which evoked strong protest from Sharma, who said he has raised an issue of national security while the government preferred to file an affidavit through a junior army officer. At this point, the Bench questioned, "How an army officer can file an affidavit on behalf of the Ministry of Defence? "We cannot go by this affidavit," the bench said and raised objection that in the affidavit it was mentioned that 40 officers sold their weapons but it was also stated that only four top-ranking officials were allegedly involved in the racket of illegal selling of weapons. Arms sold illegaly to gun houses The affidavit filed by the Defence Ministry had stated that four top-ranking officials of the army procured weapons supplied to their colleagues and illegally sold them to arms dealers, gun houses and civilians. Forty others officers sold their own weapons and 25 others were found in possession of ammunition in excess to their entitlement, it had said. The Ministry had stated that the three serving Lieutenant Colonels and a Colonel posted in Rajasthan [ Images ] were allegedly part of the racket and they coordinated procurement of non-service pattern weapons from army officials and sold them. Under the Army Rules, sale of NSP weapons is strictly prohibited. Besides the service weapon, every officer is entitled to keep a single NSP weapon, which has to be either returned on retirement or permission has to be taken if he chooses to retain it. With disciplinary proceedings on against four officers, the MoD had said in the affidavit that it was looking into the issue throughout the country. A report prepared by a Court of Inquiry ordered by Headquarters of South Western Command has detailed a list of 72 high-ranking army officials across the country, who sold their NSP weapons in violation of the Army Order and the Army Act 1959. Army initiated action against 10 officials Based on this, the Army initiated disciplinary proceedings against all, except 10 officials, who have retired, and four serving officials who managed to retrieve their weapons. The list also includes 25 officers, who were posted at Indian Army [ Images ] Training Team, Bhutan, and possessed imported ammunition (50 rounds) in excess of their authorisation. According to the PIL, the scam came to light in 2007 after authorities in Rajasthan's Ganganagar district noticed that several licenses were issued to dubious persons, including terrorists, smugglers and rowdy elements by local authorities without verification. Subsequent investigations by the government revealed a larger racket in which several army officials, including some holding the rank of major generals, IAS officers and those belonging to Rajasthan State Service, were allegedly involved in the sale of arms to dubious elements. © Copyright 2010 PTI. All rights reserved. Republication or redistribution of PTI content, including by framing or similar means, is expressly prohibited without the prior written consent. From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sat Oct 23 09:20:04 2010 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 09:20:04 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?iso-8859-1?q?Azadi=3A_The_Only_Way_=AD_Report_fro?= =?iso-8859-1?q?m_a_Turbulent_Few_Hours_in_Delhi?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Shuddha, While I agree that 87 elections were unfair , but quoting that all elections were a fraud on people of Jammu & Kashmir would be grossly incorrect. In such a case , Mr Geelani himself would have never contested and won elections in Kashmir . Even in the 87 elections , Mr Geelani won. Shunning elections became a compulsion for Mr Geelani with the advent of Gun culture and today he cant even talk of a compromise with Indian Govt. He knows what happened to many who tried to compromise . He too fears for his life , his son fled to Rawalpindi to save himself. It is not for no reason that ISI is considered the worlds No 1 Spy agency. I do not wish to reply to Anupam's mail , his tone & language doesnt deserve an answer Pawan On 10/22/10, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > Dear All, dear Lalit, > > I happen to know a little bit of Persian. And one of the reasons why > I loathe people like Ahamdinijad is because they really represent the > antithesis of all that I think is significant in Persian culture The > expression, 'Azadi bara-e-Islam' (which is pure Persian, not Arabic) > means ' Freedom for Islam' not 'Freedom Through Islam' and there is a > world of difference between the words, 'for' and 'through'. The > Persian for 'through' in this sense is - 'ba estefade az' When you > say 'Freedom through Islam' (Azadi ba estefade az Islam) it means, > Islam is the 'means' to freedom, (this rules out other means, because > means are causes, instrumentalities, and when you stress the primacy > of one cause, you undermine others). When you say Freedom for Islam, > it means that the abstract category called freedom, including the > specific abstraction of freedom for Islam is your goal. It does not > rule out other goals, other freedoms, other general or specific > abstractions. > > I am for 'Azadi bara-e-Islam' as much as I am for 'Azadi bara-e- > Zindiqui' (Freedom for Heretics) as I am for 'Azadi bara-e- > kuffar' (freedom for infidel/unbelievers) as I do not see two > different kinds of liberty to be mutually exclusive. To you, your > faith, to me, my unbelief. We may still have reason to sit and talk > to each other. However, if you decide that only one method will do > for the reaching of our goals, then, one of us has to concede defeat. > That would be the meaning of 'Azad ba estefade az Islam'. > > Ahmadinijad stole an election from the Iranian people, he perpetrated > a fraud on them. That is why he needs to be opposed. The Indian state > has stolen several so called elections in Jammu and Kashmir, > including the infamous one of 1987, in which Syed Ali Shah Geelani > did win a seat to the assembly. Had the Indian state not acted as > perfidiously as Ahmadinijad in the matter of stealing elections, > perhaps we would not have been where we are today. I have many things > against Narendra Modi, but I do concede that he was elected by a > popular mandate. Syed Ali Shah Geelani and his camp believes that the > governance of the state of Jammu and Kashmir in India does not have > the moral legiitimacy of the freely and fairly given consent of the > people. In this specific sense, i am in agreement with him. If > tomorrow, hypothetically, Narendra Modi were to be defeated in a > frauduent election. And if he then were to initiate a popular > movement against a goveranance that did not have the moral legitimacy > of an electorate's consent, then, in that limited sense, I would > support his campaign, regardless of how loathesome or not his > politics may be to me. > > This point (of the legitimacy of governance, and of the consent to be > governed by a specific sovereign) need not be confused with > ideological questions of how one responds to a particular individuals > position with regard to the formulation of an Islamic state. > > Next time you invoke a slogan, and try to score a point, try and be a > little more precise and careful. > > best, > > Shuddha > > On 22-Oct-10, at 6:03 PM, Lalit Ambardar wrote: > >> >> This is height of ideological perfidy----oppose elected Ahmadinejad >> in Iran & eulogise the megalomanic proponent of “Azadi- bara- e- >> Islam” (freedom through Islam) in Kashmir. >> >> Compulsive anti-state ‘agent provocateurs’ are only prolonging the >> agony of Kashmiri masses by patronising those who want to usher >> Kashmir in to the medieval past. >> Rgds all >> LA >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> >> >>> Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 17:59:44 +0530 >>> From: pawan.durani at gmail.com >>> To: sonia.jabbar at gmail.com >>> CC: reader-list at sarai.net >>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Azadi: The Only Way Report from a >>> Turbulent Few Hours in Delhi >>> >>> Awaiting a 3000 + Lines explanation from Mr Sengupta >>> >>> On 10/22/10, SJabbar wrote: >>>> Dear Shuddha, >>>> >>>> I've read with interest your report on the meeting at the LTG and >>>> am amazed >>>> that you have aligned yourself with and have so wholeheartedly >>>> endorsed the >>>> reactionary politics of SAS Geelani. Whatever he may have said >>>> for the >>>> benefit of audiences in New Delhi he has always advocated Kashmir's >>>> accession to Pakistan based on the 2-nation theory. He has made this >>>> unambiguously clear in his book on the Kashmir issue: 'Nava-e- >>>> Hurriyat'. He >>>> has reiterated this position as late as Sept 25 in an interview >>>> to Seema >>>> Mustafa of News X where he clearly states the independence option >>>> is not >>>> viable. He has never described the Kashmiri movement as a >>>> political struggle >>>> but a jihad and had in 1992 even written to the Afghan Mujahideen >>>> to save >>>> Kashmir from 'Hindu India.' >>>> >>>> And what of the votaries of independence and their assassination >>>> by the >>>> Hizb, the armed wing of the Jamat e-Isami of which Geelani was a >>>> member >>>> until his expulsion in 2003? What is SAS Geelani's position on >>>> that? If he >>>> has ever condemned it I should be grateful if someone were to >>>> send me a >>>> reference. >>>> >>>> That a man who has all his life scorned the notion of an >>>> independent Kashmir >>>> should now detail the character and complexion of such a state >>>> including its >>>> attitude to the sale and consumption of alcohol is truly funny, >>>> that he >>>> should quote Gandhi, even funnier (he was one of the first to >>>> castigate >>>> Yasin Malik's Gandhian methods of fasting as 'un-Islamic'.) That >>>> he should >>>> call for the return of the Pandits without once condemning their >>>> killings or >>>> the killings of Communists and National Conference workers in >>>> Kashmir is >>>> like Advani speaking about the prosperity of Muslims in Gujarat. >>>> >>>> You say Syed Ali Shah says "explicitly" he is not against >>>> dialogue, but you >>>> don't stop to question the placing of preconditions to a >>>> dialogue. Geelani >>>> has scorned talks with Delhi for years. He has abused those who >>>> have talked >>>> to N Delhi as traitors. The HM has assassinated those who dared >>>> to talk to >>>> N Delhi, whether it was Moulvi Farooq, Qazi Nissar, and even its >>>> own senior >>>> commanders like Abdul Majid Dar (they didn't even spare his wife Dr. >>>> Shameema who was shot at and grievously injured several years >>>> after her >>>> husband's murder.) >>>> >>>> Who places preconditions and then says let's have unconditional >>>> talks? What >>>> would you say if New Delhi were to say, we will only speak to >>>> SASG if he >>>> stops describing Kashmir as disputed territory or for that matter >>>> we will >>>> not speak to Hurriyat (M) and JKLF until they give up their stand on >>>> independent Kashmir? All of us would think New Delhi as being >>>> supremely >>>> unreasonable to expect a negotiation to begin by insisting the >>>> other party >>>> give up its core premise. >>>> >>>> And what is Geelani's FIRST precondition? That India accept that >>>> J&K is >>>> disputed territory. For India to accept that (esp. On SASG's >>>> goading) would >>>> mean, in diplomatese, to forgo its position on the Simla >>>> Agreement and all >>>> other agreements reached with Pakistan post 1972 and return to >>>> 1948 and the >>>> 'dispute' that was framed in the UN Resolutions, meaning, tossing >>>> the ball >>>> back into the UN and set itself up to arbitration from the >>>> international >>>> community. Why should it do that when both parties to the dispute >>>> agreed to >>>> settle the issue bilaterally? SAS Geelani knows that well enough >>>> and is >>>> content having tossed his 5 points into the arena and say, well I >>>> never said >>>> I wouldn't talk. >>>> >>>> Best >>>> sj >>>> >>>> >>>> On 22/10/10 3:51 AM, "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> (Apologies for Cross Posting on Kafila.org) >>>> >>>> Dear Friends, >>>> >>>> I was present and >>>>> speaking a few hours ago at a meeting titled >>>> ŒAzadi: The Only Way¹ on the >>>>> situation in Jammu and Kashmir, >>>> organized by the Committee for the Release >>>>> of Political Prisoners at >>>> the Little Theatre Group in Delhi yesterday (21st >>>>> October). I was not >>>> present from the beginning of the meeting as I was >>>>> traveling from >>>> another city, but can vouch for what occurred from around >>>>> 4:30 pm >>>> till the time that the meeting wound up, well after 8:00 pm in the >>>>> >>>> evening. >>>> >>>> The meeting took place in the packed to capacity auditorium of the >>>>> >>>> Little Theatre Group on Copernicus Marg at the heart of New Delhi. >>>> Several >>>>> speakers, including the poet Varavara Rao, Prof. Mihir >>>> Bhattacharya, Sugata >>>>> Bhadra, Gursharan Singh, G.N.Saibaba, Professor >>>> Sheikh Showkat Hussain of >>>>> Srinagar University, the journalist Najeeb >>>> Mubaraki, a repesentative of the >>>>> Naga Peoples Movement for Human >>>> Rights and Justice, the writer Arundhati Roy >>>>> and myself spoke at the >>>> meeting. (I may be missing out some names, for which >>>>> I apologize, but >>>> I was not present for a part of the meeting, at the very >>>>> beginning) >>>> The climax of the meeting was a very substantive and significant >>>>> >>>> speech by Syed Ali Shah Geelani of the Hurriyat Conference (G), >>>> which >>>> spelt >>>>> out the vision of liberation (Azaadi) and Justice that Syed Ali >>>> Shah Geelani >>>>> held out before the assembled public, of which I will >>>> write in detail later >>>>> in this text. >>>> >>>> The artist known as ŒInder Salim¹ originally from Kashmir, >>>>> currently >>>> living in Delhi, made an intervention by inviting the assembled >>>>> >>>> people to take (with him) the stance of a masked stone pelter for a >>>> brief, >>>>> silent moment. Students from the Jawaharlal Nehru University >>>> sang a song, >>>>> ŒTu Zinda Hai to Zindagi Ki Jeet Mein Yakeen Kar¹ >>>> invoking the delights of >>>>> life and liberation. In conclusion, the >>>> meeting adopted a resolution, which >>>>> was read, on behalf of the >>>> Committee for the Release of Political Prisoners, >>>>> by Mihir Bhattacharya. >>>> >>>> The atmosphere, for the several hours that I was >>>>> present, was >>>> absolutely electric. The vast majority of the audience was warm >>>>> and >>>> appreciative of all the speakers. They were patient and respectful >>>>> >>>> and despite grave provocation from a section that identified >>>> themselves as >>>>> ŒIndian patriots¹ and partisans of the ŒKashmir as >>>> indivisible part of >>>>> India¹ position - that repeatedly tried to >>>> interrupt the meeting and heckle >>>>> speakers, and on one occasion even >>>> tried to throw an object at the dias >>>>> did not stoop to be provoked >>>> by these pathetic attempts at disruption of a >>>>> peaceful gathering. >>>> >>>> No provocative, secterian or hateful slogans were raised >>>>> by the >>>> majority of the people present. The only provocative posturing >>>> that I >>>>> >>>> witnessed was undertaken by the self-declared Indian patriots, who >>>> were not >>>>> stopped from having their say, but were requested simply not >>>> to disrupt the >>>>> proceedings. >>>> >>>> When their behaviour crossed the limits of public decency, they >>>>> were >>>> escorted out of the premises by representatives of the Delhi Police. >>>>> >>>> The Delhi Police, to their credit, did not act against the majority >>>> of the >>>>> audience, simply because the majority of the audience >>>> conducted themselves >>>>> in a completely civil and democratic manner. >>>> >>>> There was no attempt made at >>>>> intimidation of any kind. Professor SAR >>>> Geelani, who was conducting the >>>>> proceedings on behalf of the >>>> organizers Committee for the Release of >>>>> Political Prisoners >>>> (CRPP) , repeatedly asked the people obstructing the >>>>> speakers to >>>> conduct themselves in a cultured and dignified manner. His pleas >>>>> were >>>> disregarded by the section of the crowd that let its ŒIndian >>>>> >>>> patriotism¹ get the better of its civilisation. When things got a >>>> little >>>>> too hot on occasion, the majority of the audience present >>>> simply drowned the >>>>> rude remarks and indignant posturing of the small >>>> minority of self styled >>>>> Indian patriots and champions of the ŒKashmir >>>> as indivisible part of India¹ >>>>> position in wave after wave of >>>> cheerful but firm hand clapping. >>>> >>>> While >>>>> there as enthusiastic cheering and sloganeering from the >>>> majority of the >>>>> young men and women assembled at the gathering, there >>>> was no attempt while I >>>>> was present to give the slogans a religious or >>>> secterian colour. When Syed >>>>> Ali Shah Geelani said that the people of >>>> India and Kashmir are tied together >>>>> by the bonds of insaaniyat >>>> (humanity), when he quoted Gandhi, or spoke of >>>>> the necessity of >>>> conducting a non-violent struggle that was devoid of >>>>> hatred, or even >>>> when he said that he wished to see India rise as a great >>>>> power in the >>>> world, but as a power that felt no need to oppress others, he >>>>> was >>>> wholeheartedly and sincerely applauded, by the majority of people >>>>> >>>> present in the auditorium, regardless of whether or not they were >>>>> >>>> Kashmiri. >>>> >>>> Yesterday¹s meeting needs to be seen in the context of a momentum >>>>> of >>>> different events, which have included public meetings at Jantar >>>> Mantar, >>>>> meetings in the Jawaharlal Nehru Universtiy and Delhi >>>> University, film >>>>> screenings and talks, independently organized >>>> exhibitions on the history of >>>>> Jammu and Kashmir in educational >>>> institutions, photographic exhibitions on >>>>> the situation in Kashmir >>>> today that have taken place recently at the India >>>>> Habitat Centre, >>>> while Kashmir has reeled under the brutality of the >>>>> occupation that >>>> has resulted in a hundred and eleven deaths of unarmed or >>>>> stone >>>> pelting people, including children and teenagers. The momentum of >>>>> >>>> this process, which recognizes the urgency of the situation in >>>> Kashmir, >>>>> needs to be taken to its logical conclusion, until the world >>>> and the >>>>> international community sits up and takes notice of the true >>>> nature of the >>>>> hold of the Indian state on Kashmir and its people.We >>>> need many more such >>>>> meetings and gatherings in Delhi, and indeed in >>>> every large city in >>>>> India. >>>> >>>> It must be maintained so that even a Barack Hussein Obama, scheduled >>>>> >>>> to visit New Delhi in November, is compelled to recognize the fact >>>> that the >>>>> conduct of the Indian state in Kashmir, based as it is on >>>> brutal violence >>>>> and intimidation, based as it is on a disregard of >>>> every norm of the conduct >>>>> of civilized governance is unacceptable to >>>> the world. You simply cannot >>>>> claim to be the world¹s largest >>>> democracy and preside over the deaths of >>>>> 70,000 people in twenty >>>> years. You cannot claim to be judged as a democracy >>>>> and have laws >>>> like the Armed Forces Special Powers Act. You cannot claim to >>>>> be a >>>> democracy and have your police and paramilitaries beat children to >>>>> >>>> death openly on the streets, or rape and kill young women with >>>> impunity. A >>>>> state that does so is an oppressive, immoral, occupying >>>> power, and needs to >>>>> be resisted by every right thinking person in the >>>> world. The Indian state¹s >>>>> record in Kashmir over the past several >>>> decades is not only an oppression >>>>> visited on the people of Kashmir, >>>> it is an insult to the United Nations, to >>>>> the world community, and to >>>> every principle of justice, fairness and >>>>> democracy. It is an insult >>>> to all the peace loving and freedom loving >>>>> citizens of India that do >>>> not wish to see oppression carried out in their >>>>> name. >>>> >>>> This is the message that needs to go out, and is going out, not only >>>>> >>>> from the streets of Sringar, Baramulla and Kupwara, but also from >>>>> >>>> gatherings, such as yesterdays, from the heart of Delhi, the capital >>>> of >>>>> India. We, who are the friends of liberty and justice in India, >>>> need to >>>>> stand besides our Kashmiri brothers and sisters and say to >>>> the world that we >>>>> do not accept the lies put out by the Indian state >>>> and its apologists on >>>>> Kashmir. That is the true significance and >>>> import of the process in which >>>>> yesterday¹s meeting plays an important >>>> part. This process will not stop >>>>> until the world takes notice. The >>>> United Nations, and the broad democratic >>>>> currents as well as the >>>> political leaderships of Europe, the Americas, and >>>>> of every >>>> significant power in the world needs to know that hundreds of >>>>> people, >>>> young and old, intellectuals, writers, activists, lawyers, teachers >>>>> >>>> and others, Indians and Kashmiris can stand united, in Delhi, at the >>>> heart >>>>> of the Indian Republic¹s capital, in refusing to accept the >>>> continued >>>>> occupation of Jammu and Kashmir, by India and by Pakistan. >>>> That they believe >>>>> that it is only the people of Jammu and Kashmir who >>>> must decide for >>>>> themselves their own future destiny, peacefully, in a >>>> climate free of >>>>> coercion and intimidation. >>>> >>>> As Syed Ali Shah Geelani and Sheikh Showkat >>>>> Hussain said, all that >>>> they are asking for is the right to self >>>>> determination, promised by >>>> India, before the Untied Nations, to be freely >>>>> enacted through a >>>> plebiscite, in conditions of peace and liberty, without >>>>> the presence >>>> of armed force, for the inhabitants of every part of the >>>>> undivided >>>> state of Jammu and Kashmir regardless of whether the results of >>>>> >>>> that plebiscite are in favour of India, Pakistan or an independent, >>>> united, >>>>> Jammu and Kashmir that can live in peace with all its >>>> neighbours in South >>>>> Asia. >>>> >>>> There was a great diversity of statements and styles present in >>>>> >>>> abundant splendour at yesterday¹s meeting. There was no way by which >>>> the >>>>> meeting could be reduced or simplified a single monotonous >>>> statement. Yes, >>>>> all the panelists, spoke unambiguously about the >>>> necessity for ending the >>>>> military occupation by the Indian state in >>>> Kashmir. This does not mean that >>>>> their statements and sentiments were >>>> a manufactured and processed >>>>> uniformity. The people on the panel may >>>> have significant political and >>>>> philosophical differences amongst >>>> themselves, they may even think >>>>> differently about what ŒAzaadi¹ might >>>> mean, but this was a sign, not of the >>>>> weakness, but of the strength >>>> and vitality of yesterday¹s >>>>> gathering. >>>> >>>> ŒAzaadi¹ if and when it comes, will not be the parting gift of an >>>>> >>>> exhausted colonial power, it will be the harvest of the fruits of >>>> the >>>>> >>>> imaginations and intelligences of millions of people, of their >>>> debates and >>>>> their conversations. >>>> >>>> What was extremely heart warming was the fact that each >>>>> speaker spoke >>>> of the fact that the voices of the people of Kashmir are no >>>>> longer >>>> alone and isolated, that there is a chorus of voices in different >>>>> >>>> parts of South Asia that echo and endorese their desire for >>>> liberation from >>>>> a brutal militarized occupation. From my notes of the >>>> time that I was there, >>>>> I recall that the writer Arundhati Roy, while >>>> endorsing the demand of Azaadi >>>>> for Kashmir, reminded the audience of >>>> the need for the people of Kashmir not >>>>> to be selective about justice >>>> and injustice, that they must find methods to >>>>> forge webs of >>>> solidarity with all the suffering and oppressed peoples of >>>>> India. She >>>> was heckled and rudely interrupted by a small group of Indian >>>>> >>>> nationalists in the audience, who repeatedly raised the situation of >>>>> >>>> Kashmiri Pandits, Arundhati Roy, when she was able to resume >>>> speaking, >>>>> spoke unambiguously about the fact that she considered the >>>> situation of >>>>> Kashmiri Pandits to be a tragedy. She was echoed in this >>>> sentiment later by >>>>> Syed Ali Shah Geelani who said that he personally >>>> stands guarantee for the >>>>> safety and security of all minorities, >>>> Hindu, Sikh, Buddhists, Christians >>>>> and others in a future free >>>> Kashmir. He implored the Pandits to return to >>>>> Kashmir, and said, that >>>> they are an integral part of Kashmiri society. He >>>>> spoke of the need >>>> for ensuring that a free Kashmir was a just Kashmir, and >>>>> that justice >>>> meant that the freedom, safety and security of all minorities, >>>>> of >>>> their property, their places of worship, their freedom of conscience >>>> be >>>>> given the utmost importance. He reminded the assembled people that >>>>> >>>> throughout these turbulent months, the people of Kashmir have >>>> continued to >>>>> be hospitable to Hindu pilgrims, have set up >>>> ŒLangars¹ (Kitchens) for them, >>>>> and have cared for them when they have >>>> fallen sick, despite being at the >>>>> receiving end of the violence of >>>> the Indian state. >>>> >>>> I spoke briefly, about >>>>> the fact that I was proud that so many of us >>>> had gathered in my city, Delhi, >>>>> putting aside the abstraction of our >>>> politically determined, state given >>>>> construct of citizenship, and >>>> standing, here, now, on the grounds of a >>>>> concrete human solidarity >>>> with the people of Kashmir. I spoke of the fact >>>>> that there are >>>> significant voices, even in the mainstream media who have >>>>> been >>>> compelled to recognize the urgency of the situation in Kashmir, by >>>>> >>>> the sheer determination of the youth of Kashmir to get the news of >>>> what is >>>>> happening in Kashmir out to the world. I spoke of the role >>>> played by >>>>> facebook sites like ŒAalaw¹ and blogs, and the fact that >>>> the people of India >>>>> and the world can no longer be kept in the dark >>>> by a pliant media, as >>>>> happened in 1989-90. I spoke of the ways in >>>> which the viral circulation of >>>>> leaked videos of the humiliation of >>>> Kashmiri youth on facebook pages and >>>>> online fora have successfully >>>> shown us what the reality of Kashmir is today. >>>>> I urged media >>>> professionals in the mainstream media to introspect and >>>>> reflect on >>>> the role that they may be compelled, against their own >>>>> professional >>>> ehtics, to play in the pyschological and propaganda war that >>>>> the >>>> Indian state is currently conducting. I spoke of my sense of shame >>>> and >>>>> remorse at the evasive and dissimulating role played by sections >>>> of the >>>>> mainstream media in India while reporting (or not reporting) >>>> atrocities that >>>>> make even the images from Abu Gharaib pale in >>>> comparison. >>>> >>>> I am ashamed to >>>>> say, that despite my respectful plea to the media to >>>> play a responsible role >>>>> in their reportage of Kashmir related >>>> matters, major channels like Times Now >>>>> and NDTV once again let the >>>> truth down in their reports on the days events. >>>>> NDTV saw it fit to >>>> simply report >>>> >>>> an incident of Œshoe throwing at SAS >>>>> Geelani¹. A shoe (or some other >>>> indeterminate object) was indeed thrown, but >>>>> not at Geelani. It >>>> landed on a bottle of water in front of another speaker, >>>>> while he was >>>> speaking. So let¹s at least set that record straight. Arnab >>>>> Goswami >>>> of Times Now, while conducting what he likes to call a Œdebate; on >>>>> >>>> the programme called ŒNews Hour¹ (neither News, nor just an Hour) >>>>> >>>> repeatedly uttered hysterical untruths, such as the presumption that >>>> ŒNo >>>>> State permits the advocacy of secession and self determination¹ >>>> and that a >>>>> meeting such as the one I participated in yesterday, were >>>> it to take place, >>>>> say, in the United States, would immediately lead >>>> to all speakers present >>>>> (including, presumably, myself) in being >>>> imprisoned on charges of sedition. >>>>> I have to inform my readers here, >>>> that on both counts, Arnab Goswami is >>>>> wrong. Seriously wrong. Either >>>> he is a misinformed idiot. Or he knows that >>>>> he is wrong, and is lying >>>> to his public through his teeth. We can choose to >>>>> be generous about >>>> how he would interpret his motives, and assume he is >>>>> simply a fool. >>>> >>>> Goswami, consequently demanded to know why we were not >>>>> immediately >>>> imprisoned under section 124 of the Indian penal code. Arnab >>>>> Goswami >>>> needs to be reminded, that in United States law, the provisions of >>>>> >>>> the Sedition Act are applicable only in times when the country is in >>>> a >>>>> declared state of war. And therefore his analogy does not apply, as >>>> I am not >>>>> aware that the Indian republic is currently in a declared >>>> state of war, as >>>>> per international law, (unless Arnab Goswami has >>>> lost his marbles to the >>>>> extent that he confuses the shadow boxing >>>> that he does on television with a >>>>> war declared by a state under >>>> international law). That, furthermore, the >>>>> provisions of the US >>>> Sedition Law have been declared substantially void by >>>>> the US Supreme >>>> Court ruling in the Brandenberg vs. Ohio (1969) judgement, >>>>> and of >>>> course, by the US Supreme court guaranteeing the primacy of free >>>>> >>>> speech, including Œseditious¹ speech, including the burning of the >>>> United >>>>> States flag, under the provisions of the first amendment to >>>> the US >>>>> constitution. >>>> >>>> There have been repeated attempts made to pass a law that would >>>>> make >>>> Œflag burning¹ an offence under US Law. Fortunately, (for liberty >>>> and >>>>> >>>> free speech) as of now, these attempts have not come to pass, and >>>>> >>>> currently, under US Law it is perfectly legal to advocate self- >>>>> >>>> determination and secwssion, if done peacefully, even to the extent >>>> of >>>>> burning or destroying or descerating symbols of state authority >>>> like the >>>>> national flag. Furthermore several constiutions, such as the >>>> constitutions >>>>> of Canada, Ethipopia, Austria and France, implicitly or >>>> explicitly, provide >>>>> for a legal expression of right to self >>>> determination, provided it is >>>>> exercised in a peaceful and democratic >>>> manner, as part of the freedom of >>>>> expression principle. >>>> >>>> But the point that needs to be made is larger than >>>>> whether or not >>>> Arnab Goswami is a fool and a charlatan. Yesterday¹s meeting >>>>> was a >>>> historic opportunity for his channel, and indeed for all of the >>>>> >>>> Indian mainstream media, to report and take cognizance of the fact >>>> that >>>>> there is a significant section of Indian public opinion that is >>>> actually in >>>>> favour of ŒAzaadi¹ in Kashmir. I am not suggesting that >>>> this section >>>>> constitutes an overwhelming majority at present (that >>>> might change) but, >>>>> that it does exist, and that it presents, cogent, >>>> precise arguments, that >>>>> cannot be dismissed, (as is being done by >>>> Times Now and its ilk) by invoking >>>>> the spectre of Œterrorism¹. There >>>> is hardly any Œterrorism¹ in Kashmir today >>>>> (if we don¹t count the >>>> Indian state and its terror) . The 111 people who >>>>> have died in the >>>> past months, have not died at the hands of non-state >>>>> insurgents, they >>>> have died, unarmed, facing the bullets of the Indian state. >>>>> The >>>> movement for Azaadi in Kashmir has left the culture of the gun and >>>> the >>>>> grenade behind. It fights today without weapons, armed only with >>>> courage. If >>>>> there is a terrorist in Kashmir today, he wears the >>>> uniform of the forces of >>>>> the Indian state, and carries the weapons >>>> supplied by the arsenal of the >>>>> Indian state. To discount the voices >>>> that rise in dissent against this >>>>> reality as Œterrorist sympathizers¹ >>>> as Arnab Goswami has done on his channel >>>>> is to insult reality. >>>> >>>> Syed Ali Shah Geelani spoke of the bonds of insaaniyat >>>>> that tie the >>>> peoples of Kashmir and India yesterday. I heard him say this. I >>>>> was >>>> barely five feet away from him. I heard him speak of his regard and >>>>> >>>> respect for the minorities in Jammu and Kashmir. I do not agree with >>>> much >>>>> of what Geelani Saheb represents politically, or ideologically, >>>> but I have >>>>> no hesitation in saying that what he said yesterday, was >>>> surprising for its >>>>> gentleness, for its consideration, for its >>>> moderation, even for its >>>>> liberality and open heartedness. This should >>>> have been big news. That Syed >>>>> Ali Shah Geelani said that he wants to >>>> see a strong and resurgent India. I >>>>> heard him say this. And was this >>>> reported by anyone? NO. Was it reported >>>>> that he was cheered when he >>>> said this ? NO. Was it reported that no one had >>>>> any thing angry to >>>> say against the struggling peoples of India? NO. Was it >>>>> reported >>>> that SAS Geelani expilicity said that he is NOT against dialogue, >>>>> >>>> provided that the five point formula put forward by him (none of >>>> whose >>>>> provisions 1. acceptance of the disputed nature of the >>>> territory of Jammu >>>>> and Kashmir, 2. repeal of AFSPA and other black >>>> laws, 3. release of >>>>> political detenues and prisoners, 4. withdrawal >>>> of the disproportionate >>>>> presence of the armed forces and 5. >>>> punishment to those gulty of taking life >>>>> in the past few months >>>> require the government of India to think Œoutside¹ >>>>> the framework of >>>> the Indian Constitution) are accepted as the basis of the >>>>> dialogue? NO. >>>> >>>> Don¹t you think that it makes BIG news that the tallest >>>>> separatist >>>> leader in Jammu and Kashmir actually, in a moderate voice, spells >>>>> >>>> out, in Delhi, the fundamental basis of a considered dialogue with >>>> the >>>>> Indian state, while offering it a chance to do so on bases that >>>> are >>>>> absolutely reasonable and sound, and honourable to all concerned? >>>> Do you not >>>>> think that a responsible media organization would consider >>>> this a scoop, a >>>>> major news stor? But that is not what happened. >>>> >>>> Instead, Times Now, (and I >>>>> am waiting for the morning newspapers to >>>> see how far this muck has spread) >>>>> chose to focus on the deliberately >>>> staged disruption of a handful of agent >>>>> provocateurs, our familiar >>>> posse of self styled patriotic champions of the >>>>> continued occupation >>>> of Kashmir, who posed for the camera, hyperventilated, >>>>> and occupied, >>>> perhaps no more than five percent of the attention of several >>>>> patient >>>> hours. If you saw the news reports on Times Now¹s ŒNEWSHOUR¹ >>>>> >>>> programme, you would have thought that all of what happened was >>>> their >>>>> >>>> presence as a Œprotest¹ against the meeting. As someone who was >>>> present >>>>> through much of this, I am totally, utterly aghast that a lie >>>> of such >>>>> magnificient proportions could be dished out with such ease. >>>> I am aghast >>>>> that Aditya Raj Kaul who was one of the panel invited by >>>> Arnab Goswami to >>>>> the Times Now Newshour show could lie with a >>>> straight face by saying that >>>>> there was no attempt made to Œdisrupt¹ >>>> the meeting by those who were there >>>>> to represent his point of view. >>>> >>>> Someday, I hope that all of these people, the >>>>> Arnab Goswamis of the >>>> world, find reason to repent for continuing to keep >>>>> the people of >>>> India and Kashmir in the dark. They had better think hard, >>>>> because >>>> the day when they will have cause to repent, is not far. Azaadi will >>>>> >>>> come to Kashmir, and with it, a glimmer of Azaadi will be the share >>>> of >>>>> those people in India who stood by their Kashmiri friends, in >>>> their darkest >>>>> hour.Going by what I witnessed yesterday, there will be >>>> many such people, so >>>>> Arnab Goswami and his ilk had better start >>>> practicing how to say sorry, >>>>> several hundred times a >>>>> day. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> best, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Shuddha >>>> >>>> --------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> Shudd >>>>> habrata Sengupta >>>> >>>> >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an >>>>> open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To >>>>> subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>> subscribe >>>>> in >>>>> the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: >>>>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: >>>>> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> >>>> >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> subscribe >>>> in the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > From c.anupam at gmail.com Sat Oct 23 11:11:26 2010 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 11:11:26 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?iso-8859-1?q?Azadi=3A_The_Only_Way_=AD_Report_fro?= =?iso-8859-1?q?m_a_Turbulent_Few_Hours_in_Delhi?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Pawan Durani Thanks i know you or any of these nincompoops who are vigorously writing their replies will ever be able to answer this question. admit it, its not my language or my tone.. anupam On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 9:20 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > > Shuddha, > > While I agree that 87 elections were unfair , but quoting that all > elections were a fraud on people of Jammu & Kashmir would be grossly > incorrect. > > In such a case , Mr Geelani himself would have never contested and won > elections in Kashmir . Even in the 87 elections , Mr Geelani won. > Shunning elections became a compulsion for Mr Geelani with the advent > of Gun culture and today he cant even talk of a compromise with Indian > Govt. He knows what happened to many who tried to compromise . He too > fears for his life , his son fled to Rawalpindi to save himself. > > It is not for no reason that ISI is considered the worlds No 1 Spy agency. > > I do not wish to reply to Anupam's mail , his tone & language doesnt > deserve an answer > > Pawan > > On 10/22/10, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > Dear All, dear Lalit, > > > > I happen to know a little bit of Persian. And one of the reasons why > > I loathe people like Ahamdinijad is because they really represent the > > antithesis of all that I think is significant in Persian culture The > > expression, 'Azadi bara-e-Islam' (which is pure Persian, not Arabic) > > means ' Freedom for Islam' not 'Freedom Through Islam' and there is a > > world of difference between the words, 'for' and 'through'. The > > Persian for 'through' in this sense is - 'ba estefade az' When you > > say 'Freedom through Islam' (Azadi ba estefade az Islam) it means, > > Islam is the 'means' to freedom, (this rules out other means, because > > means are causes, instrumentalities, and when you stress the primacy > > of one cause, you undermine others). When you say Freedom for Islam, > > it means that the abstract category called freedom, including the > > specific abstraction of freedom for Islam is your goal. It does not > > rule out other goals, other freedoms, other general or specific > > abstractions. > > > > I am for 'Azadi bara-e-Islam' as much as I am for 'Azadi bara-e- > > Zindiqui' (Freedom for Heretics) as I am for 'Azadi bara-e- > > kuffar' (freedom for infidel/unbelievers) as I do not see two > > different kinds of liberty to be mutually exclusive. To you, your > > faith, to me, my unbelief. We may still have reason to sit and talk > > to each other. However, if you decide that only one method will do > > for the reaching of our goals, then, one of us has to concede defeat. > > That would be the meaning of 'Azad ba estefade az Islam'. > > > > Ahmadinijad stole an election from the Iranian people, he perpetrated > > a fraud on them. That is why he needs to be opposed. The Indian state > > has stolen several so called elections in Jammu and Kashmir, > > including the infamous one of 1987, in which Syed Ali Shah Geelani > > did win a seat to the assembly. Had the Indian state not acted as > > perfidiously as Ahmadinijad in the matter of stealing elections, > > perhaps we would not have been where we are today. I have many things > > against Narendra Modi, but I do concede that he was elected by a > > popular mandate. Syed Ali Shah Geelani and his camp believes that the > > governance of the state of Jammu and Kashmir in India does not have > > the moral legiitimacy of the freely and fairly given consent of the > > people. In this specific sense, i am in agreement with him. If > > tomorrow, hypothetically, Narendra Modi were to be defeated in a > > frauduent election. And if he then were to initiate a popular > > movement against a goveranance that did not have the moral legitimacy > > of an electorate's consent, then, in that limited sense, I would > > support his campaign, regardless of how loathesome or not his > > politics may be to me. > > > > This point (of the legitimacy of governance, and of the consent to be > > governed by a specific sovereign) need not be confused with > > ideological questions of how one responds to a particular individuals > > position with regard to the formulation of an Islamic state. > > > > Next time you invoke a slogan, and try to score a point, try and be a > > little more precise and careful. > > > > best, > > > > Shuddha > > > > On 22-Oct-10, at 6:03 PM, Lalit Ambardar wrote: > > > >> > >> This is height of ideological perfidy----oppose elected Ahmadinejad > >> in Iran & eulogise the megalomanic proponent of “Azadi- bara- e- > >> Islam” (freedom through Islam) in Kashmir. > >> > >> Compulsive anti-state ‘agent provocateurs’ are only prolonging the > >> agony of Kashmiri masses by patronising those who want to usher > >> Kashmir in to the medieval past. > >> Rgds all > >> LA > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> > >> > >> > >>> Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 17:59:44 +0530 > >>> From: pawan.durani at gmail.com > >>> To: sonia.jabbar at gmail.com > >>> CC: reader-list at sarai.net > >>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Azadi: The Only Way Report from a > >>> Turbulent Few Hours in Delhi > >>> > >>> Awaiting a 3000 + Lines explanation from Mr Sengupta > >>> > >>> On 10/22/10, SJabbar wrote: > >>>> Dear Shuddha, > >>>> > >>>> I've read with interest your report on the meeting at the LTG and > >>>> am amazed > >>>> that you have aligned yourself with and have so wholeheartedly > >>>> endorsed the > >>>> reactionary politics of SAS Geelani. Whatever he may have said > >>>> for the > >>>> benefit of audiences in New Delhi he has always advocated Kashmir's > >>>> accession to Pakistan based on the 2-nation theory. He has made this > >>>> unambiguously clear in his book on the Kashmir issue: 'Nava-e- > >>>> Hurriyat'. He > >>>> has reiterated this position as late as Sept 25 in an interview > >>>> to Seema > >>>> Mustafa of News X where he clearly states the independence option > >>>> is not > >>>> viable. He has never described the Kashmiri movement as a > >>>> political struggle > >>>> but a jihad and had in 1992 even written to the Afghan Mujahideen > >>>> to save > >>>> Kashmir from 'Hindu India.' > >>>> > >>>> And what of the votaries of independence and their assassination > >>>> by the > >>>> Hizb, the armed wing of the Jamat e-Isami of which Geelani was a > >>>> member > >>>> until his expulsion in 2003? What is SAS Geelani's position on > >>>> that? If he > >>>> has ever condemned it I should be grateful if someone were to > >>>> send me a > >>>> reference. > >>>> > >>>> That a man who has all his life scorned the notion of an > >>>> independent Kashmir > >>>> should now detail the character and complexion of such a state > >>>> including its > >>>> attitude to the sale and consumption of alcohol is truly funny, > >>>> that he > >>>> should quote Gandhi, even funnier (he was one of the first to > >>>> castigate > >>>> Yasin Malik's Gandhian methods of fasting as 'un-Islamic'.) That > >>>> he should > >>>> call for the return of the Pandits without once condemning their > >>>> killings or > >>>> the killings of Communists and National Conference workers in > >>>> Kashmir is > >>>> like Advani speaking about the prosperity of Muslims in Gujarat. > >>>> > >>>> You say Syed Ali Shah says "explicitly" he is not against > >>>> dialogue, but you > >>>> don't stop to question the placing of preconditions to a > >>>> dialogue. Geelani > >>>> has scorned talks with Delhi for years. He has abused those who > >>>> have talked > >>>> to N Delhi as traitors. The HM has assassinated those who dared > >>>> to talk to > >>>> N Delhi, whether it was Moulvi Farooq, Qazi Nissar, and even its > >>>> own senior > >>>> commanders like Abdul Majid Dar (they didn't even spare his wife Dr. > >>>> Shameema who was shot at and grievously injured several years > >>>> after her > >>>> husband's murder.) > >>>> > >>>> Who places preconditions and then says let's have unconditional > >>>> talks? What > >>>> would you say if New Delhi were to say, we will only speak to > >>>> SASG if he > >>>> stops describing Kashmir as disputed territory or for that matter > >>>> we will > >>>> not speak to Hurriyat (M) and JKLF until they give up their stand on > >>>> independent Kashmir? All of us would think New Delhi as being > >>>> supremely > >>>> unreasonable to expect a negotiation to begin by insisting the > >>>> other party > >>>> give up its core premise. > >>>> > >>>> And what is Geelani's FIRST precondition? That India accept that > >>>> J&K is > >>>> disputed territory. For India to accept that (esp. On SASG's > >>>> goading) would > >>>> mean, in diplomatese, to forgo its position on the Simla > >>>> Agreement and all > >>>> other agreements reached with Pakistan post 1972 and return to > >>>> 1948 and the > >>>> 'dispute' that was framed in the UN Resolutions, meaning, tossing > >>>> the ball > >>>> back into the UN and set itself up to arbitration from the > >>>> international > >>>> community. Why should it do that when both parties to the dispute > >>>> agreed to > >>>> settle the issue bilaterally? SAS Geelani knows that well enough > >>>> and is > >>>> content having tossed his 5 points into the arena and say, well I > >>>> never said > >>>> I wouldn't talk. > >>>> > >>>> Best > >>>> sj > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On 22/10/10 3:51 AM, "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" > >>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> (Apologies for Cross Posting on Kafila.org) > >>>> > >>>> Dear Friends, > >>>> > >>>> I was present and > >>>>> speaking a few hours ago at a meeting titled > >>>> ŒAzadi: The Only Way¹ on the > >>>>> situation in Jammu and Kashmir, > >>>> organized by the Committee for the Release > >>>>> of Political Prisoners at > >>>> the Little Theatre Group in Delhi yesterday (21st > >>>>> October). I was not > >>>> present from the beginning of the meeting as I was > >>>>> traveling from > >>>> another city, but can vouch for what occurred from around > >>>>> 4:30 pm > >>>> till the time that the meeting wound up, well after 8:00 pm in the > >>>>> > >>>> evening. > >>>> > >>>> The meeting took place in the packed to capacity auditorium of the > >>>>> > >>>> Little Theatre Group on Copernicus Marg at the heart of New Delhi. > >>>> Several > >>>>> speakers, including the poet Varavara Rao, Prof. Mihir > >>>> Bhattacharya, Sugata > >>>>> Bhadra, Gursharan Singh, G.N.Saibaba, Professor > >>>> Sheikh Showkat Hussain of > >>>>> Srinagar University, the journalist Najeeb > >>>> Mubaraki, a repesentative of the > >>>>> Naga Peoples Movement for Human > >>>> Rights and Justice, the writer Arundhati Roy > >>>>> and myself spoke at the > >>>> meeting. (I may be missing out some names, for which > >>>>> I apologize, but > >>>> I was not present for a part of the meeting, at the very > >>>>> beginning) > >>>> The climax of the meeting was a very substantive and significant > >>>>> > >>>> speech by Syed Ali Shah Geelani of the Hurriyat Conference (G), > >>>> which > >>>> spelt > >>>>> out the vision of liberation (Azaadi) and Justice that Syed Ali > >>>> Shah Geelani > >>>>> held out before the assembled public, of which I will > >>>> write in detail later > >>>>> in this text. > >>>> > >>>> The artist known as ŒInder Salim¹ originally from Kashmir, > >>>>> currently > >>>> living in Delhi, made an intervention by inviting the assembled > >>>>> > >>>> people to take (with him) the stance of a masked stone pelter for a > >>>> brief, > >>>>> silent moment. Students from the Jawaharlal Nehru University > >>>> sang a song, > >>>>> ŒTu Zinda Hai to Zindagi Ki Jeet Mein Yakeen Kar¹ > >>>> invoking the delights of > >>>>> life and liberation. In conclusion, the > >>>> meeting adopted a resolution, which > >>>>> was read, on behalf of the > >>>> Committee for the Release of Political Prisoners, > >>>>> by Mihir Bhattacharya. > >>>> > >>>> The atmosphere, for the several hours that I was > >>>>> present, was > >>>> absolutely electric. The vast majority of the audience was warm > >>>>> and > >>>> appreciative of all the speakers. They were patient and respectful > >>>>> > >>>> and despite grave provocation from a section that identified > >>>> themselves as > >>>>> ŒIndian patriots¹ and partisans of the ŒKashmir as > >>>> indivisible part of > >>>>> India¹ position - that repeatedly tried to > >>>> interrupt the meeting and heckle > >>>>> speakers, and on one occasion even > >>>> tried to throw an object at the dias > >>>>> did not stoop to be provoked > >>>> by these pathetic attempts at disruption of a > >>>>> peaceful gathering. > >>>> > >>>> No provocative, secterian or hateful slogans were raised > >>>>> by the > >>>> majority of the people present. The only provocative posturing > >>>> that I > >>>>> > >>>> witnessed was undertaken by the self-declared Indian patriots, who > >>>> were not > >>>>> stopped from having their say, but were requested simply not > >>>> to disrupt the > >>>>> proceedings. > >>>> > >>>> When their behaviour crossed the limits of public decency, they > >>>>> were > >>>> escorted out of the premises by representatives of the Delhi Police. > >>>>> > >>>> The Delhi Police, to their credit, did not act against the majority > >>>> of the > >>>>> audience, simply because the majority of the audience > >>>> conducted themselves > >>>>> in a completely civil and democratic manner. > >>>> > >>>> There was no attempt made at > >>>>> intimidation of any kind. Professor SAR > >>>> Geelani, who was conducting the > >>>>> proceedings on behalf of the > >>>> organizers Committee for the Release of > >>>>> Political Prisoners > >>>> (CRPP) , repeatedly asked the people obstructing the > >>>>> speakers to > >>>> conduct themselves in a cultured and dignified manner. His pleas > >>>>> were > >>>> disregarded by the section of the crowd that let its ŒIndian > >>>>> > >>>> patriotism¹ get the better of its civilisation. When things got a > >>>> little > >>>>> too hot on occasion, the majority of the audience present > >>>> simply drowned the > >>>>> rude remarks and indignant posturing of the small > >>>> minority of self styled > >>>>> Indian patriots and champions of the ŒKashmir > >>>> as indivisible part of India¹ > >>>>> position in wave after wave of > >>>> cheerful but firm hand clapping. > >>>> > >>>> While > >>>>> there as enthusiastic cheering and sloganeering from the > >>>> majority of the > >>>>> young men and women assembled at the gathering, there > >>>> was no attempt while I > >>>>> was present to give the slogans a religious or > >>>> secterian colour. When Syed > >>>>> Ali Shah Geelani said that the people of > >>>> India and Kashmir are tied together > >>>>> by the bonds of insaaniyat > >>>> (humanity), when he quoted Gandhi, or spoke of > >>>>> the necessity of > >>>> conducting a non-violent struggle that was devoid of > >>>>> hatred, or even > >>>> when he said that he wished to see India rise as a great > >>>>> power in the > >>>> world, but as a power that felt no need to oppress others, he > >>>>> was > >>>> wholeheartedly and sincerely applauded, by the majority of people > >>>>> > >>>> present in the auditorium, regardless of whether or not they were > >>>>> > >>>> Kashmiri. > >>>> > >>>> Yesterday¹s meeting needs to be seen in the context of a momentum > >>>>> of > >>>> different events, which have included public meetings at Jantar > >>>> Mantar, > >>>>> meetings in the Jawaharlal Nehru Universtiy and Delhi > >>>> University, film > >>>>> screenings and talks, independently organized > >>>> exhibitions on the history of > >>>>> Jammu and Kashmir in educational > >>>> institutions, photographic exhibitions on > >>>>> the situation in Kashmir > >>>> today that have taken place recently at the India > >>>>> Habitat Centre, > >>>> while Kashmir has reeled under the brutality of the > >>>>> occupation that > >>>> has resulted in a hundred and eleven deaths of unarmed or > >>>>> stone > >>>> pelting people, including children and teenagers. The momentum of > >>>>> > >>>> this process, which recognizes the urgency of the situation in > >>>> Kashmir, > >>>>> needs to be taken to its logical conclusion, until the world > >>>> and the > >>>>> international community sits up and takes notice of the true > >>>> nature of the > >>>>> hold of the Indian state on Kashmir and its people.We > >>>> need many more such > >>>>> meetings and gatherings in Delhi, and indeed in > >>>> every large city in > >>>>> India. > >>>> > >>>> It must be maintained so that even a Barack Hussein Obama, scheduled > >>>>> > >>>> to visit New Delhi in November, is compelled to recognize the fact > >>>> that the > >>>>> conduct of the Indian state in Kashmir, based as it is on > >>>> brutal violence > >>>>> and intimidation, based as it is on a disregard of > >>>> every norm of the conduct > >>>>> of civilized governance is unacceptable to > >>>> the world. You simply cannot > >>>>> claim to be the world¹s largest > >>>> democracy and preside over the deaths of > >>>>> 70,000 people in twenty > >>>> years. You cannot claim to be judged as a democracy > >>>>> and have laws > >>>> like the Armed Forces Special Powers Act. You cannot claim to > >>>>> be a > >>>> democracy and have your police and paramilitaries beat children to > >>>>> > >>>> death openly on the streets, or rape and kill young women with > >>>> impunity. A > >>>>> state that does so is an oppressive, immoral, occupying > >>>> power, and needs to > >>>>> be resisted by every right thinking person in the > >>>> world. The Indian state¹s > >>>>> record in Kashmir over the past several > >>>> decades is not only an oppression > >>>>> visited on the people of Kashmir, > >>>> it is an insult to the United Nations, to > >>>>> the world community, and to > >>>> every principle of justice, fairness and > >>>>> democracy. It is an insult > >>>> to all the peace loving and freedom loving > >>>>> citizens of India that do > >>>> not wish to see oppression carried out in their > >>>>> name. > >>>> > >>>> This is the message that needs to go out, and is going out, not only > >>>>> > >>>> from the streets of Sringar, Baramulla and Kupwara, but also from > >>>>> > >>>> gatherings, such as yesterdays, from the heart of Delhi, the capital > >>>> of > >>>>> India. We, who are the friends of liberty and justice in India, > >>>> need to > >>>>> stand besides our Kashmiri brothers and sisters and say to > >>>> the world that we > >>>>> do not accept the lies put out by the Indian state > >>>> and its apologists on > >>>>> Kashmir. That is the true significance and > >>>> import of the process in which > >>>>> yesterday¹s meeting plays an important > >>>> part. This process will not stop > >>>>> until the world takes notice. The > >>>> United Nations, and the broad democratic > >>>>> currents as well as the > >>>> political leaderships of Europe, the Americas, and > >>>>> of every > >>>> significant power in the world needs to know that hundreds of > >>>>> people, > >>>> young and old, intellectuals, writers, activists, lawyers, teachers > >>>>> > >>>> and others, Indians and Kashmiris can stand united, in Delhi, at the > >>>> heart > >>>>> of the Indian Republic¹s capital, in refusing to accept the > >>>> continued > >>>>> occupation of Jammu and Kashmir, by India and by Pakistan. > >>>> That they believe > >>>>> that it is only the people of Jammu and Kashmir who > >>>> must decide for > >>>>> themselves their own future destiny, peacefully, in a > >>>> climate free of > >>>>> coercion and intimidation. > >>>> > >>>> As Syed Ali Shah Geelani and Sheikh Showkat > >>>>> Hussain said, all that > >>>> they are asking for is the right to self > >>>>> determination, promised by > >>>> India, before the Untied Nations, to be freely > >>>>> enacted through a > >>>> plebiscite, in conditions of peace and liberty, without > >>>>> the presence > >>>> of armed force, for the inhabitants of every part of the > >>>>> undivided > >>>> state of Jammu and Kashmir regardless of whether the results of > >>>>> > >>>> that plebiscite are in favour of India, Pakistan or an independent, > >>>> united, > >>>>> Jammu and Kashmir that can live in peace with all its > >>>> neighbours in South > >>>>> Asia. > >>>> > >>>> There was a great diversity of statements and styles present in > >>>>> > >>>> abundant splendour at yesterday¹s meeting. There was no way by which > >>>> the > >>>>> meeting could be reduced or simplified a single monotonous > >>>> statement. Yes, > >>>>> all the panelists, spoke unambiguously about the > >>>> necessity for ending the > >>>>> military occupation by the Indian state in > >>>> Kashmir. This does not mean that > >>>>> their statements and sentiments were > >>>> a manufactured and processed > >>>>> uniformity. The people on the panel may > >>>> have significant political and > >>>>> philosophical differences amongst > >>>> themselves, they may even think > >>>>> differently about what ŒAzaadi¹ might > >>>> mean, but this was a sign, not of the > >>>>> weakness, but of the strength > >>>> and vitality of yesterday¹s > >>>>> gathering. > >>>> > >>>> ŒAzaadi¹ if and when it comes, will not be the parting gift of an > >>>>> > >>>> exhausted colonial power, it will be the harvest of the fruits of > >>>> the > >>>>> > >>>> imaginations and intelligences of millions of people, of their > >>>> debates and > >>>>> their conversations. > >>>> > >>>> What was extremely heart warming was the fact that each > >>>>> speaker spoke > >>>> of the fact that the voices of the people of Kashmir are no > >>>>> longer > >>>> alone and isolated, that there is a chorus of voices in different > >>>>> > >>>> parts of South Asia that echo and endorese their desire for > >>>> liberation from > >>>>> a brutal militarized occupation. From my notes of the > >>>> time that I was there, > >>>>> I recall that the writer Arundhati Roy, while > >>>> endorsing the demand of Azaadi > >>>>> for Kashmir, reminded the audience of > >>>> the need for the people of Kashmir not > >>>>> to be selective about justice > >>>> and injustice, that they must find methods to > >>>>> forge webs of > >>>> solidarity with all the suffering and oppressed peoples of > >>>>> India. She > >>>> was heckled and rudely interrupted by a small group of Indian > >>>>> > >>>> nationalists in the audience, who repeatedly raised the situation of > >>>>> > >>>> Kashmiri Pandits, Arundhati Roy, when she was able to resume > >>>> speaking, > >>>>> spoke unambiguously about the fact that she considered the > >>>> situation of > >>>>> Kashmiri Pandits to be a tragedy. She was echoed in this > >>>> sentiment later by > >>>>> Syed Ali Shah Geelani who said that he personally > >>>> stands guarantee for the > >>>>> safety and security of all minorities, > >>>> Hindu, Sikh, Buddhists, Christians > >>>>> and others in a future free > >>>> Kashmir. He implored the Pandits to return to > >>>>> Kashmir, and said, that > >>>> they are an integral part of Kashmiri society. He > >>>>> spoke of the need > >>>> for ensuring that a free Kashmir was a just Kashmir, and > >>>>> that justice > >>>> meant that the freedom, safety and security of all minorities, > >>>>> of > >>>> their property, their places of worship, their freedom of conscience > >>>> be > >>>>> given the utmost importance. He reminded the assembled people that > >>>>> > >>>> throughout these turbulent months, the people of Kashmir have > >>>> continued to > >>>>> be hospitable to Hindu pilgrims, have set up > >>>> ŒLangars¹ (Kitchens) for them, > >>>>> and have cared for them when they have > >>>> fallen sick, despite being at the > >>>>> receiving end of the violence of > >>>> the Indian state. > >>>> > >>>> I spoke briefly, about > >>>>> the fact that I was proud that so many of us > >>>> had gathered in my city, Delhi, > >>>>> putting aside the abstraction of our > >>>> politically determined, state given > >>>>> construct of citizenship, and > >>>> standing, here, now, on the grounds of a > >>>>> concrete human solidarity > >>>> with the people of Kashmir. I spoke of the fact > >>>>> that there are > >>>> significant voices, even in the mainstream media who have > >>>>> been > >>>> compelled to recognize the urgency of the situation in Kashmir, by > >>>>> > >>>> the sheer determination of the youth of Kashmir to get the news of > >>>> what is > >>>>> happening in Kashmir out to the world. I spoke of the role > >>>> played by > >>>>> facebook sites like ŒAalaw¹ and blogs, and the fact that > >>>> the people of India > >>>>> and the world can no longer be kept in the dark > >>>> by a pliant media, as > >>>>> happened in 1989-90. I spoke of the ways in > >>>> which the viral circulation of > >>>>> leaked videos of the humiliation of > >>>> Kashmiri youth on facebook pages and > >>>>> online fora have successfully > >>>> shown us what the reality of Kashmir is today. > >>>>> I urged media > >>>> professionals in the mainstream media to introspect and > >>>>> reflect on > >>>> the role that they may be compelled, against their own > >>>>> professional > >>>> ehtics, to play in the pyschological and propaganda war that > >>>>> the > >>>> Indian state is currently conducting. I spoke of my sense of shame > >>>> and > >>>>> remorse at the evasive and dissimulating role played by sections > >>>> of the > >>>>> mainstream media in India while reporting (or not reporting) > >>>> atrocities that > >>>>> make even the images from Abu Gharaib pale in > >>>> comparison. > >>>> > >>>> I am ashamed to > >>>>> say, that despite my respectful plea to the media to > >>>> play a responsible role > >>>>> in their reportage of Kashmir related > >>>> matters, major channels like Times Now > >>>>> and NDTV once again let the > >>>> truth down in their reports on the days events. > >>>>> NDTV saw it fit to > >>>> simply report > >>>> > >>>> an incident of Œshoe throwing at SAS > >>>>> Geelani¹. A shoe (or some other > >>>> indeterminate object) was indeed thrown, but > >>>>> not at Geelani. It > >>>> landed on a bottle of water in front of another speaker, > >>>>> while he was > >>>> speaking. So let¹s at least set that record straight. Arnab > >>>>> Goswami > >>>> of Times Now, while conducting what he likes to call a Œdebate; on > >>>>> > >>>> the programme called ŒNews Hour¹ (neither News, nor just an Hour) > >>>>> > >>>> repeatedly uttered hysterical untruths, such as the presumption that > >>>> ŒNo > >>>>> State permits the advocacy of secession and self determination¹ > >>>> and that a > >>>>> meeting such as the one I participated in yesterday, were > >>>> it to take place, > >>>>> say, in the United States, would immediately lead > >>>> to all speakers present > >>>>> (including, presumably, myself) in being > >>>> imprisoned on charges of sedition. > >>>>> I have to inform my readers here, > >>>> that on both counts, Arnab Goswami is > >>>>> wrong. Seriously wrong. Either > >>>> he is a misinformed idiot. Or he knows that > >>>>> he is wrong, and is lying > >>>> to his public through his teeth. We can choose to > >>>>> be generous about > >>>> how he would interpret his motives, and assume he is > >>>>> simply a fool. > >>>> > >>>> Goswami, consequently demanded to know why we were not > >>>>> immediately > >>>> imprisoned under section 124 of the Indian penal code. Arnab > >>>>> Goswami > >>>> needs to be reminded, that in United States law, the provisions of > >>>>> > >>>> the Sedition Act are applicable only in times when the country is in > >>>> a > >>>>> declared state of war. And therefore his analogy does not apply, as > >>>> I am not > >>>>> aware that the Indian republic is currently in a declared > >>>> state of war, as > >>>>> per international law, (unless Arnab Goswami has > >>>> lost his marbles to the > >>>>> extent that he confuses the shadow boxing > >>>> that he does on television with a > >>>>> war declared by a state under > >>>> international law). That, furthermore, the > >>>>> provisions of the US > >>>> Sedition Law have been declared substantially void by > >>>>> the US Supreme > >>>> Court ruling in the Brandenberg vs. Ohio (1969) judgement, > >>>>> and of > >>>> course, by the US Supreme court guaranteeing the primacy of free > >>>>> > >>>> speech, including Œseditious¹ speech, including the burning of the > >>>> United > >>>>> States flag, under the provisions of the first amendment to > >>>> the US > >>>>> constitution. > >>>> > >>>> There have been repeated attempts made to pass a law that would > >>>>> make > >>>> Œflag burning¹ an offence under US Law. Fortunately, (for liberty > >>>> and > >>>>> > >>>> free speech) as of now, these attempts have not come to pass, and > >>>>> > >>>> currently, under US Law it is perfectly legal to advocate self- > >>>>> > >>>> determination and secwssion, if done peacefully, even to the extent > >>>> of > >>>>> burning or destroying or descerating symbols of state authority > >>>> like the > >>>>> national flag. Furthermore several constiutions, such as the > >>>> constitutions > >>>>> of Canada, Ethipopia, Austria and France, implicitly or > >>>> explicitly, provide > >>>>> for a legal expression of right to self > >>>> determination, provided it is > >>>>> exercised in a peaceful and democratic > >>>> manner, as part of the freedom of > >>>>> expression principle. > >>>> > >>>> But the point that needs to be made is larger than > >>>>> whether or not > >>>> Arnab Goswami is a fool and a charlatan. Yesterday¹s meeting > >>>>> was a > >>>> historic opportunity for his channel, and indeed for all of the > >>>>> > >>>> Indian mainstream media, to report and take cognizance of the fact > >>>> that > >>>>> there is a significant section of Indian public opinion that is > >>>> actually in > >>>>> favour of ŒAzaadi¹ in Kashmir. I am not suggesting that > >>>> this section > >>>>> constitutes an overwhelming majority at present (that > >>>> might change) but, > >>>>> that it does exist, and that it presents, cogent, > >>>> precise arguments, that > >>>>> cannot be dismissed, (as is being done by > >>>> Times Now and its ilk) by invoking > >>>>> the spectre of Œterrorism¹. There > >>>> is hardly any Œterrorism¹ in Kashmir today > >>>>> (if we don¹t count the > >>>> Indian state and its terror) . The 111 people who > >>>>> have died in the > >>>> past months, have not died at the hands of non-state > >>>>> insurgents, they > >>>> have died, unarmed, facing the bullets of the Indian state. > >>>>> The > >>>> movement for Azaadi in Kashmir has left the culture of the gun and > >>>> the > >>>>> grenade behind. It fights today without weapons, armed only with > >>>> courage. If > >>>>> there is a terrorist in Kashmir today, he wears the > >>>> uniform of the forces of > >>>>> the Indian state, and carries the weapons > >>>> supplied by the arsenal of the > >>>>> Indian state. To discount the voices > >>>> that rise in dissent against this > >>>>> reality as Œterrorist sympathizers¹ > >>>> as Arnab Goswami has done on his channel > >>>>> is to insult reality. > >>>> > >>>> Syed Ali Shah Geelani spoke of the bonds of insaaniyat > >>>>> that tie the > >>>> peoples of Kashmir and India yesterday. I heard him say this. I > >>>>> was > >>>> barely five feet away from him. I heard him speak of his regard and > >>>>> > >>>> respect for the minorities in Jammu and Kashmir. I do not agree with > >>>> much > >>>>> of what Geelani Saheb represents politically, or ideologically, > >>>> but I have > >>>>> no hesitation in saying that what he said yesterday, was > >>>> surprising for its > >>>>> gentleness, for its consideration, for its > >>>> moderation, even for its > >>>>> liberality and open heartedness. This should > >>>> have been big news. That Syed > >>>>> Ali Shah Geelani said that he wants to > >>>> see a strong and resurgent India. I > >>>>> heard him say this. And was this > >>>> reported by anyone? NO. Was it reported > >>>>> that he was cheered when he > >>>> said this ? NO. Was it reported that no one had > >>>>> any thing angry to > >>>> say against the struggling peoples of India? NO. Was it > >>>>> reported > >>>> that SAS Geelani expilicity said that he is NOT against dialogue, > >>>>> > >>>> provided that the five point formula put forward by him (none of > >>>> whose > >>>>> provisions 1. acceptance of the disputed nature of the > >>>> territory of Jammu > >>>>> and Kashmir, 2. repeal of AFSPA and other black > >>>> laws, 3. release of > >>>>> political detenues and prisoners, 4. withdrawal > >>>> of the disproportionate > >>>>> presence of the armed forces and 5. > >>>> punishment to those gulty of taking life > >>>>> in the past few months > >>>> require the government of India to think Œoutside¹ > >>>>> the framework of > >>>> the Indian Constitution) are accepted as the basis of the > >>>>> dialogue? NO. > >>>> > >>>> Don¹t you think that it makes BIG news that the tallest > >>>>> separatist > >>>> leader in Jammu and Kashmir actually, in a moderate voice, spells > >>>>> > >>>> out, in Delhi, the fundamental basis of a considered dialogue with > >>>> the > >>>>> Indian state, while offering it a chance to do so on bases that > >>>> are > >>>>> absolutely reasonable and sound, and honourable to all concerned? > >>>> Do you not > >>>>> think that a responsible media organization would consider > >>>> this a scoop, a > >>>>> major news stor? But that is not what happened. > >>>> > >>>> Instead, Times Now, (and I > >>>>> am waiting for the morning newspapers to > >>>> see how far this muck has spread) > >>>>> chose to focus on the deliberately > >>>> staged disruption of a handful of agent > >>>>> provocateurs, our familiar > >>>> posse of self styled patriotic champions of the > >>>>> continued occupation > >>>> of Kashmir, who posed for the camera, hyperventilated, > >>>>> and occupied, > >>>> perhaps no more than five percent of the attention of several > >>>>> patient > >>>> hours. If you saw the news reports on Times Now¹s ŒNEWSHOUR¹ > >>>>> > >>>> programme, you would have thought that all of what happened was > >>>> their > >>>>> > >>>> presence as a Œprotest¹ against the meeting. As someone who was > >>>> present > >>>>> through much of this, I am totally, utterly aghast that a lie > >>>> of such > >>>>> magnificient proportions could be dished out with such ease. > >>>> I am aghast > >>>>> that Aditya Raj Kaul who was one of the panel invited by > >>>> Arnab Goswami to > >>>>> the Times Now Newshour show could lie with a > >>>> straight face by saying that > >>>>> there was no attempt made to Œdisrupt¹ > >>>> the meeting by those who were there > >>>>> to represent his point of view. > >>>> > >>>> Someday, I hope that all of these people, the > >>>>> Arnab Goswamis of the > >>>> world, find reason to repent for continuing to keep > >>>>> the people of > >>>> India and Kashmir in the dark. They had better think hard, > >>>>> because > >>>> the day when they will have cause to repent, is not far. Azaadi will > >>>>> > >>>> come to Kashmir, and with it, a glimmer of Azaadi will be the share > >>>> of > >>>>> those people in India who stood by their Kashmiri friends, in > >>>> their darkest > >>>>> hour.Going by what I witnessed yesterday, there will be > >>>> many such people, so > >>>>> Arnab Goswami and his ilk had better start > >>>> practicing how to say sorry, > >>>>> several hundred times a > >>>>> day. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> best, > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Shuddha > >>>> > >>>> --------------------------------------------- > >>>> > >>>> Shudd > >>>>> habrata Sengupta > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> _________________________________________ > >>>> reader-list: an > >>>>> open discussion list on media and the city. > >>>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>>> To > >>>>> subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>>>> subscribe > >>>>> in > >>>>> the subject header. > >>>> To unsubscribe: > >>>>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>>> List archive: > >>>>> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> _________________________________________ > >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>>> subscribe > >>>> in the subject header. > >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >>> _________________________________________ > >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>> subscribe in the subject header. > >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > > Raqs Media Collective > > shuddha at sarai.net > > www.sarai.net > > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From indersalim at gmail.com Sat Oct 23 13:22:13 2010 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 13:22:13 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Geelani announced one Article of the Constitutionof Free Kashmir - its "Liquor Policy" In-Reply-To: <0CF11F1FC9D3475789B2BFA4AE9A8FAA@tara> References: <655243.50391.qm@web112614.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <963D2A87-EB89-41A4-906B-649EC4B7FD08@sarai.net> <0CF11F1FC9D3475789B2BFA4AE9A8FAA@tara> Message-ID: But dear Taraprakash ji Shudda concludes "By the way, none of this means that I agree with Mr. SAS Geelani;s vision of the future. I am merely stating the facts that I know and witnessed." Inbox X cashmeeri Geelani announced one Article of the Constitution of Free Kashmir - its "Liqu... 2:38 PM (22 hours ago) Reply | Shuddhabrata Sengupta Well, on these grounds, Syed Ali Shah Geelani is more moderate than Mohandas ... 3:03 PM (22 hours ago) Shuddhabrata SenguptaLoading... 3:03 PM (22 hours ago) Shuddhabrata Sengupta to cashmeeri, Sarai show details 3:03 PM (22 hours ago) Well, on these grounds, Syed Ali Shah Geelani is more moderate than Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi, who advocated total prohibition, (regardless of whether one was or was not a believer in any religion) and was even against the drinking of tea. Does that mean that we think that his vision of 'Ram Rajya' would be identical to what Aalok Aima considers to be an Islamic state? Incidentally, the state of Gujarat, has consistently imposed total prohibition in deference to M.K. Gandhi's ideas on prohibition for as long as it has existed as a state of the Indian Union. So, as per Mr. Aima's suggestion, would we now be prepared to admit that Mr. Modi's Gujarat (and the Gujarat of all his predecessors) is the closest we have come to having an 'islamic State' in India. Oh no, the closest we actually came to being an Islamic state in India was actually during Morarji Desai;s prime ministership, when some of the current champions of Hindutva were in power, when total prohibition was imposed on all of India. In fact we came even closer than the vision of SAS Geelani, which at least allows the 'non-believer' his or her daily tipple? Incidentally, Mr. Geelani went on to suggest that if a bottle of alchohl belongiing to a non believer was willingly or unwillingly damaged by a Muslim, then the state would have to compensate the non-believer for that damage. I haven;t quite heard of an Islamic state willing to pay people to drink alchohl (if their bottle has been damaged). He went on to quote an 'aayat' that said - "Muslims, do not insult even the idols (but) of the idol worshippers, for they will insult your God in return" and that the obligations of humanity are binding in our relations even with those we consider to be our enemies. Interesting stuff, coming as it does from the man who is so offen held up as a figure of inflexible bigotry. By the way, none of this means that I agree with Mr. SAS Geelani;s vision of the future. I am merely stating the facts that I know and witnessed. best Shuddha - Show quoted text - On 22-Oct-10, at 2:38 PM, cashmeeri wrote: - Show quoted text - Geelani announced one Article of the Constitution of Free Kashmir - its "Liquor Policy": http://www.prokerala.com/news/articles/a176267.html "The system of justice in an independent Jammu and Kashmir would be such that even liquor would not be banned for non-Muslims. It would be prohibited fo......r the Muslim majority but if minorities feel they want to have liquor they would be allowed to consume as their right," Hello!!!! Hello!!!! I thought it was going to be a Secular Free Kashmir. This sounds suspiciously like an Islamic Free Kashmir. Interesting prospect : Free Kashmir ..... no Non-Muslims ..... no Liquor Maybe it is the "Tourism Policy" ............. aalok aima _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Reply Reply to all Forward Reply | TaraPrakash to Shuddhabrata, cashmeeri, Sarai show details 9:49 PM (15 hours ago) The point probably the mailer was making and you are missing is that the assumption is that SASG's "free" Kashmir will be primarily an Islamic state that will allow some unislamic things to happen. This is the same vision of Hindu Rashtra that Advani was selling to Indians when BJP was being seen as taking power away in India. That you don't necessarily agree with SASG makes no freaking sense to me especially when you have unequivocally blatantly unskeptically defended and justified SASG on this forum. By becoming a SASG stooge you have joined the ranks of RSS. By putting SASG and MK Gandhi in the same sentence you killed the embodiment of nonviolence once more, and joined RSS ranks in more than one way. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" To: "cashmeeri" Cc: "Sarai" Sent: Friday, October 22, 2010 5:33 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Geelani announced one Article of the Constitutionof Free Kashmir - its "Liquor Policy" - Show quoted text - Well, on these grounds, Syed Ali Shah Geelani is more moderate than Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi, who advocated total prohibition, (regardless of whether one was or was not a believer in any religion) and was even against the drinking of tea. Does that mean that we think that his vision of 'Ram Rajya' would be identical to what Aalok Aima considers to be an Islamic state? Incidentally, the state of Gujarat, has consistently imposed total prohibition in deference to M.K. Gandhi's ideas on prohibition for as long as it has existed as a state of the Indian Union. So, as per Mr. Aima's suggestion, would we now be prepared to admit that Mr. Modi's Gujarat (and the Gujarat of all his predecessors) is the closest we have come to having an 'islamic State' in India. Oh no, the closest we actually came to being an Islamic state in India was actually during Morarji Desai;s prime ministership, when some of the current champions of Hindutva were in power, when total prohibition was imposed on all of India. In fact we came even closer than the vision of SAS Geelani, which at least allows the 'non-believer' his or her daily tipple? Incidentally, Mr. Geelani went on to suggest that if a bottle of alchohl belongiing to a non believer was willingly or unwillingly damaged by a Muslim, then the state would have to compensate the non-believer for that damage. I haven;t quite heard of an Islamic state willing to pay people to drink alchohl (if their bottle has been damaged). He went on to quote an 'aayat' that said - "Muslims, do not insult even the idols (but) of the idol worshippers, for they will insult your God in return" and that the obligations of humanity are binding in our relations even with those we consider to be our enemies. Interesting stuff, coming as it does from the man who is so offen held up as a figure of inflexible bigotry. By the way, none of this means that I agree with Mr. SAS Geelani;s vision of the future. I am merely stating the facts that I know and witnessed. best Shuddha On 22-Oct-10, at 2:38 PM, cashmeeri wrote: Geelani announced one Article of the Constitution of Free Kashmir - its "Liquor Policy": http://www.prokerala.com/news/articles/a176267.html "The system of justice in an independent Jammu and Kashmir would be such that even liquor would not be banned for non-Muslims. It would be prohibited fo......r the Muslim majority but if minorities feel they want to have liquor they would be allowed to consume as their right," Hello!!!! Hello!!!! I thought it was going to be a Secular Free Kashmir. This sounds suspiciously like an Islamic Free Kashmir. Interesting prospect : Free Kashmir ..... no Non-Muslims ..... no Liquor Maybe it is the "Tourism Policy" ............. aalok aima _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Reply Reply to all Forward On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 9:49 PM, TaraPrakash wrote: > The point probably the mailer was making and you are missing is that the > assumption is that SASG's "free" Kashmir will be primarily an Islamic state > that will allow some unislamic things to happen. This is the same vision of > Hindu Rashtra that Advani was selling to Indians when BJP was being seen as > taking power away in India. > > That you don't necessarily agree with SASG makes no freaking sense to me > especially when you have unequivocally blatantly unskeptically defended and > justified SASG on this forum. By becoming a SASG stooge you have joined the > ranks of RSS. By putting SASG and MK Gandhi in the same sentence you killed > the embodiment of nonviolence once more, and joined RSS ranks in more than > one way. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" > > To: "cashmeeri" > Cc: "Sarai" > Sent: Friday, October 22, 2010 5:33 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Geelani announced one Article of the > Constitutionof Free Kashmir - its "Liquor Policy" > > >> >> >> Well, on these grounds, Syed Ali Shah Geelani is more moderate than >> Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi, who advocated total prohibition,  (regardless of >> whether one was or was not a believer in any religion)  and was even against >> the drinking of tea. Does that mean that we  think that his vision of 'Ram >> Rajya'  would be identical to what  Aalok Aima considers to be an Islamic >> state? >> >> Incidentally, the state of Gujarat, has consistently imposed total >> prohibition in deference to M.K. Gandhi's ideas on prohibition for as long >> as it has existed as a state of the Indian Union. So, as per Mr. Aima's >> suggestion, would we now be prepared to admit that Mr. Modi's Gujarat (and >> the Gujarat of all his predecessors) is the closest we  have come to having >> an 'islamic State' in India. Oh no, the closest  we actually came to being >> an Islamic state in India was actually  during Morarji Desai;s prime >> ministership, when some of the current  champions of Hindutva were in power, >> when total prohibition was  imposed on all of India. In fact we came even >> closer than the vision  of SAS Geelani, which at least allows the >> 'non-believer' his or her  daily tipple? Incidentally, Mr. Geelani went on >> to suggest that if a  bottle of alchohl belongiing to a non believer was >> willingly or  unwillingly damaged by a Muslim, then the state would have to >>  compensate the non-believer for that damage. I haven;t quite heard of  an >> Islamic state willing to pay people to drink alchohl (if their  bottle has >> been damaged). He went on to quote an 'aayat' that said -  "Muslims, do not >> insult even the idols (but) of the idol worshippers,  for they will insult >> your God in return" and that the obligations of  humanity are binding in our >> relations even with those we consider to  be our enemies.  Interesting >> stuff, coming as it does from the man  who is so offen held up as a figure >> of inflexible bigotry. >> >> By the way, none of this means that I agree with Mr. SAS Geelani;s  vision >> of the future. I am merely stating the facts that I  know and  witnessed. >> >> best >> >> Shuddha >> >> >> On 22-Oct-10, at 2:38 PM, cashmeeri wrote: >> >>> >>> Geelani announced one Article of the Constitution of Free Kashmir -  its >>> "Liquor Policy": >>> >>> http://www.prokerala.com/news/articles/a176267.html >>> >>> "The system of justice in an independent Jammu and Kashmir would be  such >>> that even liquor would not be banned for non-Muslims. It would  be >>> prohibited fo......r the Muslim majority but if minorities feel  they want >>> to have liquor they would be allowed to consume as their  right," >>> >>> Hello!!!! Hello!!!! >>> I thought it was going to be a Secular Free Kashmir. This sounds >>> suspiciously like an Islamic Free Kashmir. >>> >>> Interesting prospect : Free Kashmir ..... no Non-Muslims ..... no  Liquor >>> >>> Maybe it is the "Tourism Policy" >>> >>> ............. aalok aima >>> >>> >>> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >> Raqs Media Collective >> shuddha at sarai.net >> www.sarai.net >> www.raqsmediacollective.net >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From indersalim at gmail.com Sat Oct 23 18:31:52 2010 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 18:31:52 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?iso-8859-1?q?Azadi=3A_The_Only_Way_=AD_Report_fro?= =?iso-8859-1?q?m_a_Turbulent_Few_Hours_in_Delhi?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Some very interesting quotes at LTG I quote Shudha "By the way, none of this means that I agree with Mr. SAS Geelani;s vision of the future. I am merely stating the facts that I know and witnessed" Shuddha further said, in his brief and crisp presentation at LTG " let there be million dialogues " Arundhati Roy pushed it further, by saying that Kashmiris should not be indifferent to other injustices, anywhere thus the debate on Azadi intensified, and SASG too said that he is ready for talks, provided they are meant to address the core issue, and not to distract by giving some material concessions. Well, i truly wish that he had confessed about the KP migration in 90. My guess is that too will happen one day, if not him, but somebody. Well, politics is a more or less an game of chess, and no body is a saint out there. Further, i feel, the younger generation is taking over the game of politics in kashmir. It will be quite different after few years, i only hope it is very creative and non-violent People like Abudllah III or other dynasty rulers is pathetic thing which is plaguing not only kashmir but rest of India. we hope some changes, be it kashmir or else where with love is . On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 4:37 PM, SJabbar wrote: > Dear Shuddha, > > I've read with interest your report on the meeting at the LTG and am amazed > that you have aligned yourself with and have so wholeheartedly endorsed the > reactionary politics of SAS Geelani.  Whatever he may have said for the > benefit of audiences in New Delhi he has always advocated Kashmir's > accession to Pakistan based on the 2-nation theory.  He has made this > unambiguously clear in his book on the Kashmir issue: 'Nava-e-Hurriyat'.  He > has reiterated this position as late as Sept 25 in an interview to Seema > Mustafa of News X where he clearly states the independence option is not > viable. He has never described the Kashmiri movement as a political struggle > but a jihad and had in 1992 even written to the Afghan Mujahideen to save > Kashmir from 'Hindu India.' > > And what of the votaries of independence and their assassination by the > Hizb, the armed wing of the Jamat e-Isami of which Geelani was a member > until his expulsion in 2003? What is SAS Geelani's position on that?  If he > has ever condemned it I should be grateful if someone were to send me a > reference. > > That a man who has all his life scorned the notion of an independent Kashmir > should now detail the character and complexion of such a state including its > attitude to the sale and consumption of alcohol is truly funny, that he > should quote Gandhi, even funnier (he was one of the first to castigate > Yasin Malik's Gandhian methods of fasting as 'un-Islamic'.)  That he should > call for the return of the Pandits without once condemning their killings or > the killings of Communists and National Conference workers in Kashmir is > like Advani speaking about the prosperity of Muslims in Gujarat. > > You say Syed Ali Shah says "explicitly" he is not against dialogue, but you > don't stop to question the placing of preconditions to a dialogue. Geelani > has scorned talks with Delhi for years.  He has abused those who have talked > to N Delhi as traitors.  The HM has assassinated those who dared to talk to > N Delhi, whether it was Moulvi Farooq, Qazi Nissar, and even its own senior > commanders like Abdul Majid Dar (they didn't even spare his wife Dr. > Shameema who was shot at and grievously injured several years after her > husband's murder.) > > Who places preconditions and then says let's have unconditional talks?  What > would you say if New Delhi were to say, we will only speak to SASG if he > stops describing Kashmir as disputed territory or for that matter we will > not speak to Hurriyat (M) and JKLF until they give up their stand on > independent Kashmir?  All of us would think New Delhi as being supremely > unreasonable to expect a negotiation to begin by insisting the other party > give up its core premise. > > And what is Geelani's FIRST precondition? That India accept that J&K is > disputed territory. For India to accept that (esp. On SASG's goading) would > mean, in diplomatese, to forgo its position on the Simla Agreement and all > other agreements reached with Pakistan post 1972 and return to 1948 and the > 'dispute' that was framed in the UN Resolutions, meaning, tossing the ball > back into the UN and set itself up to arbitration from the international > community.  Why should it do that when both parties to the dispute agreed to > settle the issue bilaterally?  SAS Geelani knows that well enough and is > content having tossed his 5 points into the arena and say, well I never said > I wouldn't talk. > > Best > sj > > > On 22/10/10 3:51 AM, "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" wrote: > >> (Apologies for Cross Posting on Kafila.org) > > Dear Friends, > > I was present and >> speaking a few hours ago at a meeting titled > ŒAzadi: The Only Way¹ on the >> situation in Jammu and Kashmir, > organized by the Committee for the Release >> of Political Prisoners at > the Little Theatre Group in Delhi yesterday (21st >> October). I was not > present from the beginning of the meeting as I was >> traveling from > another city, but can vouch for what occurred from around >> 4:30 pm > till the time that the meeting wound up, well after 8:00 pm in the >> > evening. > > The meeting took place in the packed to capacity auditorium of the >> > Little Theatre Group on Copernicus Marg at the heart of New Delhi. > Several >> speakers, including the poet Varavara Rao, Prof. Mihir > Bhattacharya, Sugata >> Bhadra, Gursharan Singh, G.N.Saibaba, Professor > Sheikh Showkat Hussain of >> Srinagar University, the journalist Najeeb > Mubaraki, a repesentative of the >> Naga Peoples Movement for Human > Rights and Justice, the writer Arundhati Roy >> and myself spoke at the > meeting. (I may be missing out some names, for which >> I apologize, but > I was not present for a part of the meeting, at the very >> beginning) > The climax of the meeting was a very substantive and significant >> > speech by Syed Ali Shah Geelani of the Hurriyat Conference (G), which > spelt >> out the vision of liberation (Azaadi) and Justice that Syed Ali > Shah Geelani >> held out before the assembled public, of which I will > write in detail later >> in this text. > > The artist known as ŒInder Salim¹ originally from Kashmir, >> currently > living in Delhi, made an intervention by inviting the assembled >> > people to take (with him) the stance of a masked stone pelter for a > brief, >> silent moment. Students from the Jawaharlal Nehru University > sang a song, >> ŒTu Zinda Hai to Zindagi Ki Jeet Mein Yakeen Kar¹ > invoking the delights of >> life and liberation. In conclusion, the > meeting adopted a resolution, which >> was read, on behalf of the > Committee for the Release of Political Prisoners, >> by Mihir Bhattacharya. > > The atmosphere, for the several hours that I was >> present, was > absolutely electric. The vast majority of the audience was warm >> and > appreciative of all the speakers. They were patient and respectful ­ >> > and despite grave provocation from a section that identified > themselves as >> ŒIndian patriots¹ and partisans of the ŒKashmir as > indivisible part of >> India¹ position -  that repeatedly tried to > interrupt the meeting and heckle >> speakers, and on one occasion even > tried to throw an object at the dias ­ >> did not stoop to be provoked > by these pathetic attempts at disruption of a >> peaceful gathering. > > No provocative, secterian or hateful slogans were raised >> by the > majority of the people present. The only provocative posturing that I >> > witnessed was undertaken by the self-declared Indian patriots, who > were not >> stopped from having their say, but were requested simply not > to disrupt the >> proceedings. > > When their behaviour crossed the limits of public decency, they >> were > escorted out of the premises by representatives of the Delhi Police. >> > The Delhi Police, to their credit, did not act against the majority > of the >> audience, simply because the majority of the audience > conducted themselves >> in a completely civil and democratic manner. > > There was no attempt made at >> intimidation of any kind. Professor SAR > Geelani, who was conducting the >> proceedings on behalf of the > organizers ­ Committee for the Release of >> Political Prisoners > (CRPP) , repeatedly asked the people obstructing the >> speakers to > conduct themselves in a cultured and dignified manner. His pleas >> were > disregarded by the section of the crowd that let its ŒIndian >> > patriotism¹ get the better of its civilisation. When things got a > little >> too hot on occasion, the majority of the audience present > simply drowned the >> rude remarks and indignant posturing of the small > minority of self styled >> Indian patriots and champions of the ŒKashmir > as indivisible part of India¹ >> position ­ in wave after wave of > cheerful but firm hand clapping. > > While >> there as enthusiastic cheering and sloganeering from the > majority of the >> young men and women assembled at the gathering, there > was no attempt while I >> was present to give the slogans a religious or > secterian colour. When Syed >> Ali Shah Geelani said that the people of > India and Kashmir are tied together >> by the bonds of insaaniyat > (humanity), when he quoted Gandhi, or spoke of >> the necessity of > conducting a non-violent struggle that was devoid of >> hatred, or even > when he said that he wished to see India rise as a great >> power in the > world, but as a power that felt no need to oppress others, he >> was > wholeheartedly and sincerely applauded, by the majority of people >> > present in the auditorium, regardless of whether or not they were >> > Kashmiri. > > Yesterday¹s meeting needs to be seen in the context of a momentum >> of > different events, which have included public meetings at Jantar > Mantar, >> meetings in the Jawaharlal Nehru Universtiy and Delhi > University, film >> screenings and talks, independently organized > exhibitions on the history of >> Jammu and Kashmir in educational > institutions, photographic exhibitions on >> the situation in Kashmir > today that have taken place recently at the India >> Habitat Centre, > while Kashmir has reeled under the brutality of the >> occupation that > has resulted in a hundred and eleven deaths of unarmed or >> stone > pelting people, including children and teenagers. The momentum of >> > this process, which recognizes the urgency of the situation in > Kashmir, >> needs to be taken to its logical conclusion, until the world > and the >> international community sits up and takes notice of the true > nature of the >> hold of the Indian state on Kashmir and its people.We > need many more such >> meetings and gatherings in Delhi, and indeed in > every large city in >> India. > > It must be maintained so that even a Barack Hussein Obama, scheduled >> > to visit New Delhi in November, is compelled to recognize the fact > that the >> conduct of the Indian state in Kashmir, based as it is on > brutal violence >> and intimidation, based as it is on a disregard of > every norm of the conduct >> of civilized governance is unacceptable to > the world. You simply cannot >> claim to be the world¹s largest > democracy and preside over the deaths of >> 70,000 people in twenty > years. You cannot claim to be judged as a democracy >> and have laws > like the Armed Forces Special Powers Act. You cannot claim to >> be a > democracy and have your police and paramilitaries beat children to >> > death openly on the streets, or rape and kill young women with > impunity. A >> state that does so is an oppressive, immoral, occupying > power, and needs to >> be resisted by every right thinking person in the > world. The Indian state¹s >> record in Kashmir over the past several > decades is not only an oppression >> visited on the people of Kashmir, > it is an insult to the United Nations, to >> the world community, and to > every principle of justice, fairness and >> democracy. It is an insult > to all the peace loving and freedom loving >> citizens of India that do > not wish to see oppression carried out in their >> name. > > This is the message that needs to go out, and is going out, not only >> > from the streets of Sringar, Baramulla and Kupwara, but also from >> > gatherings, such as yesterdays, from the heart of Delhi, the capital > of >> India. We, who are the friends of liberty and justice in India, > need to >> stand besides our Kashmiri brothers and sisters and say to > the world that we >> do not accept the lies put out by the Indian state > and its apologists on >> Kashmir. That is the true significance and > import of the process in which >> yesterday¹s meeting plays an important > part. This process will not stop >> until the world takes notice. The > United Nations, and the broad democratic >> currents as well as the > political leaderships of Europe, the Americas, and >> of every > significant power in the world needs to know that hundreds of >> people, > young and old, intellectuals, writers, activists, lawyers, teachers >> > and others, Indians and Kashmiris can stand united, in Delhi, at the > heart >> of the Indian Republic¹s capital, in refusing to accept the > continued >> occupation of Jammu and Kashmir, by India and by Pakistan. > That they believe >> that it is only the people of Jammu and Kashmir who > must decide for >> themselves their own future destiny, peacefully, in a > climate free of >> coercion and intimidation. > > As Syed Ali Shah Geelani and Sheikh Showkat >> Hussain said, all that > they are asking for is the right to self >> determination, promised by > India, before the Untied Nations, to be freely >> enacted through a > plebiscite, in conditions of peace and liberty, without >> the presence > of armed force, for the inhabitants of every part of the >> undivided > state of Jammu and Kashmir ­ regardless of whether the results of >> > that plebiscite are in favour of India, Pakistan or an independent, > united, >> Jammu and Kashmir that can live in peace with all its > neighbours in South >> Asia. > > There was a great diversity of statements and styles  present in >> > abundant splendour at yesterday¹s meeting. There was no way by which > the >> meeting could be reduced or simplified a single monotonous > statement. Yes, >> all the panelists, spoke unambiguously about the > necessity for ending the >> military occupation by the Indian state in > Kashmir. This does not mean that >> their statements and sentiments were > a manufactured and processed >> uniformity. The people on the panel may > have significant political and >> philosophical differences amongst > themselves, they may even think >> differently about what ŒAzaadi¹ might > mean, but this was a sign, not of the >> weakness, but of the strength > and vitality of yesterday¹s >> gathering. > > ŒAzaadi¹ if and when it comes, will not be the parting gift of an >> > exhausted colonial power, it will be the harvest of the fruits of the >> > imaginations and intelligences of millions of people, of their > debates and >> their conversations. > > What was extremely heart warming was the fact that each >> speaker spoke > of the fact that the voices of the people of Kashmir are no >> longer > alone and isolated, that there is a chorus of voices in different >> > parts of South Asia that echo and endorese their desire for > liberation from >> a brutal militarized occupation. From my notes of the > time that I was there, >> I recall that the writer Arundhati Roy, while > endorsing the demand of Azaadi >> for Kashmir, reminded the audience of > the need for the people of Kashmir not >> to be selective about justice > and injustice, that they must find methods to >> forge webs of > solidarity with all the suffering and oppressed peoples of >> India. She > was heckled and rudely interrupted by a small group of Indian >> > nationalists in the audience, who repeatedly raised the situation of >> > Kashmiri Pandits, Arundhati Roy, when she was able to resume > speaking, >> spoke unambiguously about the fact that she considered the > situation of >> Kashmiri Pandits to be a tragedy. She was echoed in this > sentiment later by >> Syed Ali Shah Geelani who said that he personally > stands guarantee for the >> safety and security of all minorities, > Hindu, Sikh, Buddhists, Christians >> and others in a future free > Kashmir. He implored the Pandits to return to >> Kashmir, and said, that > they are an integral part of Kashmiri society. He >> spoke of the need > for ensuring that a free Kashmir was a just Kashmir, and >> that justice > meant that the freedom, safety and security of all minorities, >> of > their property, their places of worship, their freedom of conscience > be >> given the utmost importance. He reminded the assembled people that >> > throughout these turbulent months, the people of Kashmir have > continued to >> be hospitable to Hindu pilgrims, have set up > ŒLangars¹ (Kitchens) for them, >> and have cared for them when they have > fallen sick, despite being at the >> receiving end of the violence of > the Indian state. > > I spoke briefly, about >> the fact that I was proud that so many of us > had gathered in my city, Delhi, >> putting aside the abstraction of our > politically determined, state given >> construct of citizenship, and > standing, here, now, on the grounds of a >> concrete human solidarity > with the people of Kashmir. I spoke of the fact >> that there are > significant voices, even in the mainstream media who have >> been > compelled to recognize the urgency of the situation in Kashmir, by >> > the sheer determination of the youth of Kashmir to get the news of > what is >> happening in Kashmir out to the world. I spoke of the role > played by >> facebook sites like ŒAalaw¹ and blogs, and the fact that > the people of India >> and the world can no longer be kept in the dark > by a pliant media, as >> happened in 1989-90. I spoke of the ways in > which the viral circulation of >> leaked videos of the humiliation of > Kashmiri youth on facebook pages and >> online fora have successfully > shown us what the reality of Kashmir is today. >> I urged media > professionals in the mainstream media to introspect and >> reflect on > the role that they may be compelled, against their own >> professional > ehtics, to play in the pyschological and propaganda war that >> the > Indian state is currently conducting. I spoke of my sense of shame > and >> remorse at the evasive and dissimulating role played by sections > of the >> mainstream media in India while reporting (or not reporting) > atrocities that >> make even the images from Abu Gharaib pale in > comparison. > > I am ashamed to >> say, that despite my respectful plea to the media to > play a responsible role >> in their reportage of Kashmir related > matters, major channels like Times Now >> and NDTV once again let the > truth down in their reports on the days events. >> NDTV saw it fit to > simply report > > an incident of Œshoe throwing at SAS >> Geelani¹. A shoe (or some other > indeterminate object) was indeed thrown, but >> not at Geelani. It > landed on a bottle of water in front of another speaker, >> while he was > speaking. So let¹s at least set that record straight. Arnab >> Goswami > of Times Now, while conducting what he likes to call a Œdebate; on >> > the programme called ŒNews Hour¹ (neither News, nor just an Hour) >> > repeatedly uttered hysterical untruths, such as the presumption that > ŒNo >> State permits the advocacy of secession and self determination¹ > and that a >> meeting such as the one I participated in yesterday, were > it to take place, >> say, in the United States, would immediately lead > to all speakers present >> (including, presumably, myself) in being > imprisoned on charges of sedition. >> I have to inform my readers here, > that on both counts, Arnab Goswami is >> wrong. Seriously wrong. Either > he is a misinformed idiot. Or he knows that >> he is wrong, and is lying > to his public through his teeth. We can choose to >> be generous about > how he would interpret his motives, and assume he is >> simply a fool. > > Goswami, consequently demanded to know why we were not >> immediately > imprisoned under section 124 of the Indian penal code. Arnab >> Goswami > needs to be reminded, that in United States law, the provisions of >> > the Sedition Act are applicable only in times when the country is in > a >> declared state of war. And therefore his analogy does not apply, as > I am not >> aware that the Indian republic is currently in a declared > state of war, as >> per international law, (unless Arnab Goswami has > lost his marbles to the >> extent that he confuses the shadow boxing > that he does on television with a >> war declared by a state under > international law). That, furthermore, the >> provisions of the US > Sedition Law have been declared substantially void by >> the US Supreme > Court ruling in the Brandenberg vs. Ohio (1969) judgement, >> and of > course, by the US Supreme court guaranteeing the primacy of free >> > speech, including Œseditious¹ speech, including the burning of the > United >> States flag, under the provisions of the first amendment to > the US >> constitution. > > There have been repeated attempts made to pass a law that would >> make > Œflag burning¹ an offence under US Law. Fortunately, (for liberty and >> > free speech) as of now, these attempts have not come to pass, and >> > currently, under US Law it is perfectly legal to advocate self- >> > determination and secwssion, if done peacefully, even to the extent > of >> burning or destroying or descerating symbols of state authority > like the >> national flag. Furthermore several constiutions, such as the > constitutions >> of Canada, Ethipopia, Austria and France, implicitly or > explicitly, provide >> for a legal expression of right to self > determination, provided it is >> exercised in a peaceful and democratic > manner, as part of the freedom of >> expression principle. > > But the point that needs to be made is larger than >> whether or not > Arnab Goswami is a fool and a charlatan. Yesterday¹s meeting >> was a > historic opportunity for his channel, and indeed for all of the >> > Indian mainstream media, to report and take cognizance of the fact > that >> there is a significant section of Indian public opinion that is > actually in >> favour of ŒAzaadi¹ in Kashmir. I am not suggesting that > this section >> constitutes an overwhelming majority at present (that > might change) but, >> that it does exist, and that it presents, cogent, > precise arguments, that >> cannot be dismissed, (as is being done by > Times Now and its ilk) by invoking >> the spectre of Œterrorism¹. There > is hardly any Œterrorism¹ in Kashmir today >> (if we don¹t count the > Indian state and its terror) . The 111 people who >> have died in the > past months, have not died at the hands of non-state >> insurgents, they > have died, unarmed, facing the bullets of the Indian state. >> The > movement for Azaadi in Kashmir has left the culture of the gun and > the >> grenade behind. It fights today without weapons, armed only with > courage. If >> there is a terrorist in Kashmir today, he wears the > uniform of the forces of >> the Indian state, and carries the weapons > supplied by the arsenal of the >> Indian state. To discount the voices > that rise in dissent against this >> reality as Œterrorist sympathizers¹ > as Arnab Goswami has done on his channel >> is to insult reality. > > Syed Ali Shah Geelani spoke of the bonds of insaaniyat >> that tie the > peoples of Kashmir and India yesterday. I heard him say this. I >> was > barely five feet away from him. I heard him speak of his regard and >> > respect for the minorities in Jammu and Kashmir. I do not agree with > much >> of what Geelani Saheb represents politically, or ideologically, > but I have >> no hesitation in saying that what he said yesterday, was > surprising for its >> gentleness, for its consideration, for its > moderation, even for its >> liberality and open heartedness. This should > have been big news. That Syed >> Ali Shah Geelani said that he wants to > see a strong and resurgent India. I >> heard him say this. And was this > reported by anyone? NO. Was it reported >> that he was cheered when he > said this ? NO. Was it reported that no one had >> any thing angry to > say against the struggling peoples of India?  NO. Was it >> reported > that SAS Geelani expilicity said that he is NOT against dialogue, >> > provided that the five point formula put forward by him (none of > whose >> provisions ­ 1. acceptance of the disputed nature of the > territory of Jammu >> and Kashmir, 2. repeal of AFSPA and other black > laws, 3. release of >> political detenues and prisoners, 4. withdrawal > of the disproportionate >> presence of the armed forces and 5. > punishment to those gulty of taking life >> in the past few months ­ > require the government of India to think Œoutside¹ >> the framework of > the Indian Constitution) are accepted as the basis of the >> dialogue? NO. > > Don¹t you think that it makes BIG news that the tallest >> separatist > leader in Jammu and Kashmir actually, in a moderate voice, spells >> > out, in Delhi, the fundamental basis of a considered dialogue with > the >> Indian state, while offering it a chance to do so on bases that > are >> absolutely reasonable and sound, and honourable to all concerned? > Do you not >> think that a responsible media organization would consider > this a scoop, a >> major news stor?  But that is not what happened. > > Instead, Times Now, (and I >> am waiting for the morning newspapers to > see how far this muck has spread) >> chose to focus on the deliberately > staged disruption of a handful of agent >> provocateurs, our familiar > posse of self styled patriotic champions of the >> continued occupation > of Kashmir, who posed for the camera, hyperventilated, >> and occupied, > perhaps no more than five percent of the attention of several >> patient > hours. If you saw the news reports on Times Now¹s ŒNEWSHOUR¹ >> > programme, you would have thought that all of what happened was their >> > presence as a Œprotest¹ against the meeting. As someone who was > present >> through much of this, I am totally, utterly aghast that a lie > of such >> magnificient proportions could be dished out with such ease. > I am aghast >> that Aditya Raj Kaul who was one of the panel invited by > Arnab Goswami to >> the Times Now Newshour show could lie with a > straight face by saying that >> there was no attempt made to Œdisrupt¹ > the meeting by those who were there >> to represent his point of view. > > Someday, I hope that all of these people, the >> Arnab Goswamis of the > world, find reason to repent for continuing to keep >> the people of > India and Kashmir in the dark. They had better think hard, >> because > the day when they will have cause to repent, is not far. Azaadi will >> > come to Kashmir, and with it, a glimmer of Azaadi will be the share > of >> those people in India who stood by their Kashmiri friends, in > their darkest >> hour.Going by what I witnessed yesterday, there will be > many such people, so >> Arnab Goswami and his ilk had better start > practicing how to say sorry, >> several hundred times a >> day. > > > > best, > > > > Shuddha > > --------------------------------------------- > > Shudd >> habrata Sengupta > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an >> open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To >> subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in >> the subject header. > To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: >> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From c.anupam at gmail.com Sat Oct 23 18:56:41 2010 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 18:56:41 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?iso-8859-1?q?Azadi=3A_The_Only_Way_=AD_Report_fro?= =?iso-8859-1?q?m_a_Turbulent_Few_Hours_in_Delhi?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Inder, Beyond the game of politics in which nobody is a saint, there is always a side which is weaker. It looks as if i am making a very general statement or something which has been said earlier but guess who are more desperate to resolve this issue. Not the Indian state. IT NEVER WAS UNLESS IT WAS UNDER SEIGE. The state is always passive. Such is its passivity that it uses its own men to wipe a section of others demanding their rights. Its indifference is gross. In desperation, what does one do? You are already outnumbered by the presence of armed personnel. It is only in desperation for a resolution, some statements are made which doesnt go down well with the state or its supporters and its patrons. Why would you hope for the younger generation to be creative/non violent? Do you think younger generations should wage the same battles like the present ones? I agree that when movements get violent, there is bloodshed which brings misery. But when you start discussing talking about future generations, expect them to be creative and non violent and, also educate them about politics as a game of chess and that nobody is a saint, you may also consider that there are sides which are weaker, there are issues which need resolution. You being a witness to this should know more about. If my observation is very immediate or immature, consider this to be a reaction from someone who is fed up of this nation or some loser. Anupam On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 6:31 PM, Inder Salim wrote: > Some very interesting quotes at LTG > > I quote Shudha > "By the way, none of this means that I agree with Mr. SAS Geelani;s > vision of the future. I am merely stating the facts that I know and > witnessed" > > Shuddha further said, in his brief and crisp presentation at LTG " > let there be million dialogues " > > Arundhati Roy pushed it further, by saying that Kashmiris should not > be indifferent to other injustices, anywhere > > thus the debate on Azadi intensified, and SASG too said that he is > ready for talks, provided they are meant to address the core issue, > and not to distract by giving some material concessions. Well, i truly > wish that he had confessed about the KP migration in 90. My guess is > that too will happen one day, if not him, but somebody. > > Well, politics is a more or less an game of chess, and no body is a > saint out there. > > Further, i feel, the younger generation is taking over the game of > politics in kashmir. It will be quite different after few years, i > only hope it is very creative and non-violent > > People like Abudllah III or other dynasty rulers is pathetic thing > which is plaguing not only kashmir but rest of India. > > we hope some changes, be it kashmir or else where > > with love > is > > > > > > > . > > > On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 4:37 PM, SJabbar wrote: > > Dear Shuddha, > > > > I've read with interest your report on the meeting at the LTG and am > amazed > > that you have aligned yourself with and have so wholeheartedly endorsed > the > > reactionary politics of SAS Geelani. Whatever he may have said for the > > benefit of audiences in New Delhi he has always advocated Kashmir's > > accession to Pakistan based on the 2-nation theory. He has made this > > unambiguously clear in his book on the Kashmir issue: 'Nava-e-Hurriyat'. > He > > has reiterated this position as late as Sept 25 in an interview to Seema > > Mustafa of News X where he clearly states the independence option is not > > viable. He has never described the Kashmiri movement as a political > struggle > > but a jihad and had in 1992 even written to the Afghan Mujahideen to save > > Kashmir from 'Hindu India.' > > > > And what of the votaries of independence and their assassination by the > > Hizb, the armed wing of the Jamat e-Isami of which Geelani was a member > > until his expulsion in 2003? What is SAS Geelani's position on that? If > he > > has ever condemned it I should be grateful if someone were to send me a > > reference. > > > > That a man who has all his life scorned the notion of an independent > Kashmir > > should now detail the character and complexion of such a state including > its > > attitude to the sale and consumption of alcohol is truly funny, that he > > should quote Gandhi, even funnier (he was one of the first to castigate > > Yasin Malik's Gandhian methods of fasting as 'un-Islamic'.) That he > should > > call for the return of the Pandits without once condemning their killings > or > > the killings of Communists and National Conference workers in Kashmir is > > like Advani speaking about the prosperity of Muslims in Gujarat. > > > > You say Syed Ali Shah says "explicitly" he is not against dialogue, but > you > > don't stop to question the placing of preconditions to a dialogue. > Geelani > > has scorned talks with Delhi for years. He has abused those who have > talked > > to N Delhi as traitors. The HM has assassinated those who dared to talk > to > > N Delhi, whether it was Moulvi Farooq, Qazi Nissar, and even its own > senior > > commanders like Abdul Majid Dar (they didn't even spare his wife Dr. > > Shameema who was shot at and grievously injured several years after her > > husband's murder.) > > > > Who places preconditions and then says let's have unconditional talks? > What > > would you say if New Delhi were to say, we will only speak to SASG if he > > stops describing Kashmir as disputed territory or for that matter we will > > not speak to Hurriyat (M) and JKLF until they give up their stand on > > independent Kashmir? All of us would think New Delhi as being supremely > > unreasonable to expect a negotiation to begin by insisting the other > party > > give up its core premise. > > > > And what is Geelani's FIRST precondition? That India accept that J&K is > > disputed territory. For India to accept that (esp. On SASG's goading) > would > > mean, in diplomatese, to forgo its position on the Simla Agreement and > all > > other agreements reached with Pakistan post 1972 and return to 1948 and > the > > 'dispute' that was framed in the UN Resolutions, meaning, tossing the > ball > > back into the UN and set itself up to arbitration from the international > > community. Why should it do that when both parties to the dispute agreed > to > > settle the issue bilaterally? SAS Geelani knows that well enough and is > > content having tossed his 5 points into the arena and say, well I never > said > > I wouldn't talk. > > > > Best > > sj > > > > > > On 22/10/10 3:51 AM, "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" wrote: > > > >> (Apologies for Cross Posting on Kafila.org) > > > > Dear Friends, > > > > I was present and > >> speaking a few hours ago at a meeting titled > > ŒAzadi: The Only Way¹ on the > >> situation in Jammu and Kashmir, > > organized by the Committee for the Release > >> of Political Prisoners at > > the Little Theatre Group in Delhi yesterday (21st > >> October). I was not > > present from the beginning of the meeting as I was > >> traveling from > > another city, but can vouch for what occurred from around > >> 4:30 pm > > till the time that the meeting wound up, well after 8:00 pm in the > >> > > evening. > > > > The meeting took place in the packed to capacity auditorium of the > >> > > Little Theatre Group on Copernicus Marg at the heart of New Delhi. > > Several > >> speakers, including the poet Varavara Rao, Prof. Mihir > > Bhattacharya, Sugata > >> Bhadra, Gursharan Singh, G.N.Saibaba, Professor > > Sheikh Showkat Hussain of > >> Srinagar University, the journalist Najeeb > > Mubaraki, a repesentative of the > >> Naga Peoples Movement for Human > > Rights and Justice, the writer Arundhati Roy > >> and myself spoke at the > > meeting. (I may be missing out some names, for which > >> I apologize, but > > I was not present for a part of the meeting, at the very > >> beginning) > > The climax of the meeting was a very substantive and significant > >> > > speech by Syed Ali Shah Geelani of the Hurriyat Conference (G), which > > spelt > >> out the vision of liberation (Azaadi) and Justice that Syed Ali > > Shah Geelani > >> held out before the assembled public, of which I will > > write in detail later > >> in this text. > > > > The artist known as ŒInder Salim¹ originally from Kashmir, > >> currently > > living in Delhi, made an intervention by inviting the assembled > >> > > people to take (with him) the stance of a masked stone pelter for a > > brief, > >> silent moment. Students from the Jawaharlal Nehru University > > sang a song, > >> ŒTu Zinda Hai to Zindagi Ki Jeet Mein Yakeen Kar¹ > > invoking the delights of > >> life and liberation. In conclusion, the > > meeting adopted a resolution, which > >> was read, on behalf of the > > Committee for the Release of Political Prisoners, > >> by Mihir Bhattacharya. > > > > The atmosphere, for the several hours that I was > >> present, was > > absolutely electric. The vast majority of the audience was warm > >> and > > appreciative of all the speakers. They were patient and respectful ­ > >> > > and despite grave provocation from a section that identified > > themselves as > >> ŒIndian patriots¹ and partisans of the ŒKashmir as > > indivisible part of > >> India¹ position - that repeatedly tried to > > interrupt the meeting and heckle > >> speakers, and on one occasion even > > tried to throw an object at the dias ­ > >> did not stoop to be provoked > > by these pathetic attempts at disruption of a > >> peaceful gathering. > > > > No provocative, secterian or hateful slogans were raised > >> by the > > majority of the people present. The only provocative posturing that I > >> > > witnessed was undertaken by the self-declared Indian patriots, who > > were not > >> stopped from having their say, but were requested simply not > > to disrupt the > >> proceedings. > > > > When their behaviour crossed the limits of public decency, they > >> were > > escorted out of the premises by representatives of the Delhi Police. > >> > > The Delhi Police, to their credit, did not act against the majority > > of the > >> audience, simply because the majority of the audience > > conducted themselves > >> in a completely civil and democratic manner. > > > > There was no attempt made at > >> intimidation of any kind. Professor SAR > > Geelani, who was conducting the > >> proceedings on behalf of the > > organizers ­ Committee for the Release of > >> Political Prisoners > > (CRPP) , repeatedly asked the people obstructing the > >> speakers to > > conduct themselves in a cultured and dignified manner. His pleas > >> were > > disregarded by the section of the crowd that let its ŒIndian > >> > > patriotism¹ get the better of its civilisation. When things got a > > little > >> too hot on occasion, the majority of the audience present > > simply drowned the > >> rude remarks and indignant posturing of the small > > minority of self styled > >> Indian patriots and champions of the ŒKashmir > > as indivisible part of India¹ > >> position ­ in wave after wave of > > cheerful but firm hand clapping. > > > > While > >> there as enthusiastic cheering and sloganeering from the > > majority of the > >> young men and women assembled at the gathering, there > > was no attempt while I > >> was present to give the slogans a religious or > > secterian colour. When Syed > >> Ali Shah Geelani said that the people of > > India and Kashmir are tied together > >> by the bonds of insaaniyat > > (humanity), when he quoted Gandhi, or spoke of > >> the necessity of > > conducting a non-violent struggle that was devoid of > >> hatred, or even > > when he said that he wished to see India rise as a great > >> power in the > > world, but as a power that felt no need to oppress others, he > >> was > > wholeheartedly and sincerely applauded, by the majority of people > >> > > present in the auditorium, regardless of whether or not they were > >> > > Kashmiri. > > > > Yesterday¹s meeting needs to be seen in the context of a momentum > >> of > > different events, which have included public meetings at Jantar > > Mantar, > >> meetings in the Jawaharlal Nehru Universtiy and Delhi > > University, film > >> screenings and talks, independently organized > > exhibitions on the history of > >> Jammu and Kashmir in educational > > institutions, photographic exhibitions on > >> the situation in Kashmir > > today that have taken place recently at the India > >> Habitat Centre, > > while Kashmir has reeled under the brutality of the > >> occupation that > > has resulted in a hundred and eleven deaths of unarmed or > >> stone > > pelting people, including children and teenagers. The momentum of > >> > > this process, which recognizes the urgency of the situation in > > Kashmir, > >> needs to be taken to its logical conclusion, until the world > > and the > >> international community sits up and takes notice of the true > > nature of the > >> hold of the Indian state on Kashmir and its people.We > > need many more such > >> meetings and gatherings in Delhi, and indeed in > > every large city in > >> India. > > > > It must be maintained so that even a Barack Hussein Obama, scheduled > >> > > to visit New Delhi in November, is compelled to recognize the fact > > that the > >> conduct of the Indian state in Kashmir, based as it is on > > brutal violence > >> and intimidation, based as it is on a disregard of > > every norm of the conduct > >> of civilized governance is unacceptable to > > the world. You simply cannot > >> claim to be the world¹s largest > > democracy and preside over the deaths of > >> 70,000 people in twenty > > years. You cannot claim to be judged as a democracy > >> and have laws > > like the Armed Forces Special Powers Act. You cannot claim to > >> be a > > democracy and have your police and paramilitaries beat children to > >> > > death openly on the streets, or rape and kill young women with > > impunity. A > >> state that does so is an oppressive, immoral, occupying > > power, and needs to > >> be resisted by every right thinking person in the > > world. The Indian state¹s > >> record in Kashmir over the past several > > decades is not only an oppression > >> visited on the people of Kashmir, > > it is an insult to the United Nations, to > >> the world community, and to > > every principle of justice, fairness and > >> democracy. It is an insult > > to all the peace loving and freedom loving > >> citizens of India that do > > not wish to see oppression carried out in their > >> name. > > > > This is the message that needs to go out, and is going out, not only > >> > > from the streets of Sringar, Baramulla and Kupwara, but also from > >> > > gatherings, such as yesterdays, from the heart of Delhi, the capital > > of > >> India. We, who are the friends of liberty and justice in India, > > need to > >> stand besides our Kashmiri brothers and sisters and say to > > the world that we > >> do not accept the lies put out by the Indian state > > and its apologists on > >> Kashmir. That is the true significance and > > import of the process in which > >> yesterday¹s meeting plays an important > > part. This process will not stop > >> until the world takes notice. The > > United Nations, and the broad democratic > >> currents as well as the > > political leaderships of Europe, the Americas, and > >> of every > > significant power in the world needs to know that hundreds of > >> people, > > young and old, intellectuals, writers, activists, lawyers, teachers > >> > > and others, Indians and Kashmiris can stand united, in Delhi, at the > > heart > >> of the Indian Republic¹s capital, in refusing to accept the > > continued > >> occupation of Jammu and Kashmir, by India and by Pakistan. > > That they believe > >> that it is only the people of Jammu and Kashmir who > > must decide for > >> themselves their own future destiny, peacefully, in a > > climate free of > >> coercion and intimidation. > > > > As Syed Ali Shah Geelani and Sheikh Showkat > >> Hussain said, all that > > they are asking for is the right to self > >> determination, promised by > > India, before the Untied Nations, to be freely > >> enacted through a > > plebiscite, in conditions of peace and liberty, without > >> the presence > > of armed force, for the inhabitants of every part of the > >> undivided > > state of Jammu and Kashmir ­ regardless of whether the results of > >> > > that plebiscite are in favour of India, Pakistan or an independent, > > united, > >> Jammu and Kashmir that can live in peace with all its > > neighbours in South > >> Asia. > > > > There was a great diversity of statements and styles present in > >> > > abundant splendour at yesterday¹s meeting. There was no way by which > > the > >> meeting could be reduced or simplified a single monotonous > > statement. Yes, > >> all the panelists, spoke unambiguously about the > > necessity for ending the > >> military occupation by the Indian state in > > Kashmir. This does not mean that > >> their statements and sentiments were > > a manufactured and processed > >> uniformity. The people on the panel may > > have significant political and > >> philosophical differences amongst > > themselves, they may even think > >> differently about what ŒAzaadi¹ might > > mean, but this was a sign, not of the > >> weakness, but of the strength > > and vitality of yesterday¹s > >> gathering. > > > > ŒAzaadi¹ if and when it comes, will not be the parting gift of an > >> > > exhausted colonial power, it will be the harvest of the fruits of the > >> > > imaginations and intelligences of millions of people, of their > > debates and > >> their conversations. > > > > What was extremely heart warming was the fact that each > >> speaker spoke > > of the fact that the voices of the people of Kashmir are no > >> longer > > alone and isolated, that there is a chorus of voices in different > >> > > parts of South Asia that echo and endorese their desire for > > liberation from > >> a brutal militarized occupation. From my notes of the > > time that I was there, > >> I recall that the writer Arundhati Roy, while > > endorsing the demand of Azaadi > >> for Kashmir, reminded the audience of > > the need for the people of Kashmir not > >> to be selective about justice > > and injustice, that they must find methods to > >> forge webs of > > solidarity with all the suffering and oppressed peoples of > >> India. She > > was heckled and rudely interrupted by a small group of Indian > >> > > nationalists in the audience, who repeatedly raised the situation of > >> > > Kashmiri Pandits, Arundhati Roy, when she was able to resume > > speaking, > >> spoke unambiguously about the fact that she considered the > > situation of > >> Kashmiri Pandits to be a tragedy. She was echoed in this > > sentiment later by > >> Syed Ali Shah Geelani who said that he personally > > stands guarantee for the > >> safety and security of all minorities, > > Hindu, Sikh, Buddhists, Christians > >> and others in a future free > > Kashmir. He implored the Pandits to return to > >> Kashmir, and said, that > > they are an integral part of Kashmiri society. He > >> spoke of the need > > for ensuring that a free Kashmir was a just Kashmir, and > >> that justice > > meant that the freedom, safety and security of all minorities, > >> of > > their property, their places of worship, their freedom of conscience > > be > >> given the utmost importance. He reminded the assembled people that > >> > > throughout these turbulent months, the people of Kashmir have > > continued to > >> be hospitable to Hindu pilgrims, have set up > > ŒLangars¹ (Kitchens) for them, > >> and have cared for them when they have > > fallen sick, despite being at the > >> receiving end of the violence of > > the Indian state. > > > > I spoke briefly, about > >> the fact that I was proud that so many of us > > had gathered in my city, Delhi, > >> putting aside the abstraction of our > > politically determined, state given > >> construct of citizenship, and > > standing, here, now, on the grounds of a > >> concrete human solidarity > > with the people of Kashmir. I spoke of the fact > >> that there are > > significant voices, even in the mainstream media who have > >> been > > compelled to recognize the urgency of the situation in Kashmir, by > >> > > the sheer determination of the youth of Kashmir to get the news of > > what is > >> happening in Kashmir out to the world. I spoke of the role > > played by > >> facebook sites like ŒAalaw¹ and blogs, and the fact that > > the people of India > >> and the world can no longer be kept in the dark > > by a pliant media, as > >> happened in 1989-90. I spoke of the ways in > > which the viral circulation of > >> leaked videos of the humiliation of > > Kashmiri youth on facebook pages and > >> online fora have successfully > > shown us what the reality of Kashmir is today. > >> I urged media > > professionals in the mainstream media to introspect and > >> reflect on > > the role that they may be compelled, against their own > >> professional > > ehtics, to play in the pyschological and propaganda war that > >> the > > Indian state is currently conducting. I spoke of my sense of shame > > and > >> remorse at the evasive and dissimulating role played by sections > > of the > >> mainstream media in India while reporting (or not reporting) > > atrocities that > >> make even the images from Abu Gharaib pale in > > comparison. > > > > I am ashamed to > >> say, that despite my respectful plea to the media to > > play a responsible role > >> in their reportage of Kashmir related > > matters, major channels like Times Now > >> and NDTV once again let the > > truth down in their reports on the days events. > >> NDTV saw it fit to > > simply report > > > > an incident of Œshoe throwing at SAS > >> Geelani¹. A shoe (or some other > > indeterminate object) was indeed thrown, but > >> not at Geelani. It > > landed on a bottle of water in front of another speaker, > >> while he was > > speaking. So let¹s at least set that record straight. Arnab > >> Goswami > > of Times Now, while conducting what he likes to call a Œdebate; on > >> > > the programme called ŒNews Hour¹ (neither News, nor just an Hour) > >> > > repeatedly uttered hysterical untruths, such as the presumption that > > ŒNo > >> State permits the advocacy of secession and self determination¹ > > and that a > >> meeting such as the one I participated in yesterday, were > > it to take place, > >> say, in the United States, would immediately lead > > to all speakers present > >> (including, presumably, myself) in being > > imprisoned on charges of sedition. > >> I have to inform my readers here, > > that on both counts, Arnab Goswami is > >> wrong. Seriously wrong. Either > > he is a misinformed idiot. Or he knows that > >> he is wrong, and is lying > > to his public through his teeth. We can choose to > >> be generous about > > how he would interpret his motives, and assume he is > >> simply a fool. > > > > Goswami, consequently demanded to know why we were not > >> immediately > > imprisoned under section 124 of the Indian penal code. Arnab > >> Goswami > > needs to be reminded, that in United States law, the provisions of > >> > > the Sedition Act are applicable only in times when the country is in > > a > >> declared state of war. And therefore his analogy does not apply, as > > I am not > >> aware that the Indian republic is currently in a declared > > state of war, as > >> per international law, (unless Arnab Goswami has > > lost his marbles to the > >> extent that he confuses the shadow boxing > > that he does on television with a > >> war declared by a state under > > international law). That, furthermore, the > >> provisions of the US > > Sedition Law have been declared substantially void by > >> the US Supreme > > Court ruling in the Brandenberg vs. Ohio (1969) judgement, > >> and of > > course, by the US Supreme court guaranteeing the primacy of free > >> > > speech, including Œseditious¹ speech, including the burning of the > > United > >> States flag, under the provisions of the first amendment to > > the US > >> constitution. > > > > There have been repeated attempts made to pass a law that would > >> make > > Œflag burning¹ an offence under US Law. Fortunately, (for liberty and > >> > > free speech) as of now, these attempts have not come to pass, and > >> > > currently, under US Law it is perfectly legal to advocate self- > >> > > determination and secwssion, if done peacefully, even to the extent > > of > >> burning or destroying or descerating symbols of state authority > > like the > >> national flag. Furthermore several constiutions, such as the > > constitutions > >> of Canada, Ethipopia, Austria and France, implicitly or > > explicitly, provide > >> for a legal expression of right to self > > determination, provided it is > >> exercised in a peaceful and democratic > > manner, as part of the freedom of > >> expression principle. > > > > But the point that needs to be made is larger than > >> whether or not > > Arnab Goswami is a fool and a charlatan. Yesterday¹s meeting > >> was a > > historic opportunity for his channel, and indeed for all of the > >> > > Indian mainstream media, to report and take cognizance of the fact > > that > >> there is a significant section of Indian public opinion that is > > actually in > >> favour of ŒAzaadi¹ in Kashmir. I am not suggesting that > > this section > >> constitutes an overwhelming majority at present (that > > might change) but, > >> that it does exist, and that it presents, cogent, > > precise arguments, that > >> cannot be dismissed, (as is being done by > > Times Now and its ilk) by invoking > >> the spectre of Œterrorism¹. There > > is hardly any Œterrorism¹ in Kashmir today > >> (if we don¹t count the > > Indian state and its terror) . The 111 people who > >> have died in the > > past months, have not died at the hands of non-state > >> insurgents, they > > have died, unarmed, facing the bullets of the Indian state. > >> The > > movement for Azaadi in Kashmir has left the culture of the gun and > > the > >> grenade behind. It fights today without weapons, armed only with > > courage. If > >> there is a terrorist in Kashmir today, he wears the > > uniform of the forces of > >> the Indian state, and carries the weapons > > supplied by the arsenal of the > >> Indian state. To discount the voices > > that rise in dissent against this > >> reality as Œterrorist sympathizers¹ > > as Arnab Goswami has done on his channel > >> is to insult reality. > > > > Syed Ali Shah Geelani spoke of the bonds of insaaniyat > >> that tie the > > peoples of Kashmir and India yesterday. I heard him say this. I > >> was > > barely five feet away from him. I heard him speak of his regard and > >> > > respect for the minorities in Jammu and Kashmir. I do not agree with > > much > >> of what Geelani Saheb represents politically, or ideologically, > > but I have > >> no hesitation in saying that what he said yesterday, was > > surprising for its > >> gentleness, for its consideration, for its > > moderation, even for its > >> liberality and open heartedness. This should > > have been big news. That Syed > >> Ali Shah Geelani said that he wants to > > see a strong and resurgent India. I > >> heard him say this. And was this > > reported by anyone? NO. Was it reported > >> that he was cheered when he > > said this ? NO. Was it reported that no one had > >> any thing angry to > > say against the struggling peoples of India? NO. Was it > >> reported > > that SAS Geelani expilicity said that he is NOT against dialogue, > >> > > provided that the five point formula put forward by him (none of > > whose > >> provisions ­ 1. acceptance of the disputed nature of the > > territory of Jammu > >> and Kashmir, 2. repeal of AFSPA and other black > > laws, 3. release of > >> political detenues and prisoners, 4. withdrawal > > of the disproportionate > >> presence of the armed forces and 5. > > punishment to those gulty of taking life > >> in the past few months ­ > > require the government of India to think Œoutside¹ > >> the framework of > > the Indian Constitution) are accepted as the basis of the > >> dialogue? NO. > > > > Don¹t you think that it makes BIG news that the tallest > >> separatist > > leader in Jammu and Kashmir actually, in a moderate voice, spells > >> > > out, in Delhi, the fundamental basis of a considered dialogue with > > the > >> Indian state, while offering it a chance to do so on bases that > > are > >> absolutely reasonable and sound, and honourable to all concerned? > > Do you not > >> think that a responsible media organization would consider > > this a scoop, a > >> major news stor? But that is not what happened. > > > > Instead, Times Now, (and I > >> am waiting for the morning newspapers to > > see how far this muck has spread) > >> chose to focus on the deliberately > > staged disruption of a handful of agent > >> provocateurs, our familiar > > posse of self styled patriotic champions of the > >> continued occupation > > of Kashmir, who posed for the camera, hyperventilated, > >> and occupied, > > perhaps no more than five percent of the attention of several > >> patient > > hours. If you saw the news reports on Times Now¹s ŒNEWSHOUR¹ > >> > > programme, you would have thought that all of what happened was their > >> > > presence as a Œprotest¹ against the meeting. As someone who was > > present > >> through much of this, I am totally, utterly aghast that a lie > > of such > >> magnificient proportions could be dished out with such ease. > > I am aghast > >> that Aditya Raj Kaul who was one of the panel invited by > > Arnab Goswami to > >> the Times Now Newshour show could lie with a > > straight face by saying that > >> there was no attempt made to Œdisrupt¹ > > the meeting by those who were there > >> to represent his point of view. > > > > Someday, I hope that all of these people, the > >> Arnab Goswamis of the > > world, find reason to repent for continuing to keep > >> the people of > > India and Kashmir in the dark. They had better think hard, > >> because > > the day when they will have cause to repent, is not far. Azaadi will > >> > > come to Kashmir, and with it, a glimmer of Azaadi will be the share > > of > >> those people in India who stood by their Kashmiri friends, in > > their darkest > >> hour.Going by what I witnessed yesterday, there will be > > many such people, so > >> Arnab Goswami and his ilk had better start > > practicing how to say sorry, > >> several hundred times a > >> day. > > > > > > > > best, > > > > > > > > Shuddha > > > > --------------------------------------------- > > > > Shudd > >> habrata Sengupta > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an > >> open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To > >> subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in > >> the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: > >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > >> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From sonia.jabbar at gmail.com Sat Oct 23 19:45:44 2010 From: sonia.jabbar at gmail.com (SJabbar) Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 19:45:44 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?iso-8859-1?q?Azadi=3A_The_Only_Way_=AD_Report_fro?= =?iso-8859-1?q?m_a_Turbulent_Few_Hours_in_Delhi?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sorry for cross-posting but I sent this message out in the morning as a response to Shuddha¹s 2nd post but received an automated email saying my post had to be reviewed by the moderator. Since I haven¹t received a response (Monica??!) I assume it was not approved or got lost in the vast belly of the Sarai computer! ------------------------------------- Shuddha, let us take your arguments and apply them to the other side. Modi belongs to a political party that was in power and he was at the helm when the 2002 Gujarat carnage took place. He may not have explicitly directed it but he certainly presided over the violence. What Modi is like as a person, whether he is gentle, cultured, cries at the funeral of his friends or his rivals are of no concern to me (It is well known that Goebbels was a cultured man and had a refined taste in music and the arts and of course Jinnah ate ham sandwiches). What matters to me is that the man presided over the worst kind of violence and has refused to, till date, condemn it unambiguously. Instead he and his party continue to cite the economic progress of Muslims in Gujarat to counter it. The subtext of this‹ and this is a South Asian disease‹ is let us forget the past, galtiyan dono taraf se huin hain (³action-reaction²), and let us move on. Whether it is the various political parties in India who have incited, controlled and presided over the worst communal or sectarian violence from the 1930¹s to the present day, or the Pakistani army role in the mass rapes of Bangladesh or the Sri Lankan army¹s role against Tamil civilians, every political party in these countries seem to be inflicted by the same disease. Having said that, I believe it is the role of civil society to be vigilant, to be rigorous, to not succumb to the same logic. I know that you have been critical of fundamentalist politics in this forum and others, whether it is Hindutva or Islamist and that is why it surprised me to read your post on the LTG event. You say ³You may be right when you say that SAS Geelani may be saying one thing in Delhi and another in Srinagar. I am not here to judge the sincerity, or lack of, or ambiguity, of these statements.² Why are you not here to judge the sincerity or lack thereof of these statements? Surely, one is always judging political parties when they claim one or another thing? How does one align oneself politically if one goes simply by manifestos and not by actions? Judging and evaluating is a constant process. Mamta Bannerjee may have been one thing as a member of the opposition but how will she be when she comes to power? One reads her statements, one watches carefully her actions following her statements. If they don¹t gel, we believe her to be insincere. You write: ³I am amazed that this recognition is not getting the space I think it deserves, simply as a NEWS story. ³ Do you remember Atal Behari Vajpayee shed tears after the demolition of the Babri Masjid and Advani described it as ³the saddest day of his life.² Should these isolated moments and statements be highlighted and privileged as representing the 2 men¹s position on the Babri Masjid or should one judge them over a longer period of time, weighing their statements and their actions? As for Mr. Geelani and evaluating his actions, do you believe a responsible leader ought to lead from the front or give calls to his followers to engage in actions that will cause injury or even death from the safety of his home? Mr. Geelani is fully aware that in any part of this planet if you pelt stones at a man with a gun, there is a fair chance that the man with the gun is going to retaliate. When he was released from jail he made a fine statement calling for the end of the hartaal calendar, saying that this was not the way forward, that these protests could not be sustained, that life could not come to a standstill (btw, the Sopore fruit mandi, his constituency, continued to function through this entire period hartaal calendar or not). These were wise words from a man who has been in politics for years. Wise words or the thinking of the ISI, I¹m not sure because the words were echoed by Syed Salahuddin. What follows is interesting: Salahuddin¹s effigy is burnt and a rumour is floated that Mr. Geelani is selling out to Omar Abdullah. Does Mr. Geelani stand by his words? Does he do what Gandhi does after Chauri Chaura? No, of course not. He does a total U-turn and starts competing with Masrat Alam on the calendars, subjecting the people of the valley to more misery. What do ordinary Kashmiris feel about the continuation of this absurd form of protest where they and not the Government of India suffer? You may find the answer in the fact that there was not a single protest when Masrat Alam was arrested. Again Mr. Geelani saying he Œpersonally¹ favours the accession to Pakistan but will Œabide by¹ what the people of J&K want is neither here nor there. What you see as a maturing position may be read as an opportunistic one until such time as it is tested. As I have already shown in my last post Mr. Geelani, his political party and his ideology have since the mid-90¹s shown no such respectful accommodation of the political views of others. In fact any divergence from this view has been silenced by the bullet. If this is someone¹s history‹ and as much as I should wish it otherwise-- it is very, very difficult for me to suspend my cynicism and turn enthusiastic cartwheels on the basis of one speech to a select audience in New Delhi. With reference to your point about borders: The GoI acknowledges that Kashmir is an ³issue² between India and Pakistan. As I have mentioned in my first post, it objects to the word ³dispute² as it internationalizes Kashmir, ignores the Simla Agreement and takes it out of the domain of bilateral talks back to the UN. If you want my personal opinion on this (and I have argued on this list in the past), I agree with this stand. I see the UN as a forum where, sadly, world powers have always manipulated nations and it certainly does not have the moral standing after Iraq and Afghanistan to really mediate anywhere in the world. India and Pakistan need to, and can settle the issue taking into account the wishes of all the people of J&K as it stood in 1947. As I have argued in the past and as Gen.Musharraf recently said on an NDTV interview that India and Pakistan were very close to drafting an agreement based on his 4-point formula. Interestingly, various interpretations of this 4-point formula were thrown up by all shades of political parties but there was a broad consensus on this whether from the mainstream groups or the separatists. The only leader that rejected this was Mr. Geelani who insisted that the Kashmir ³dispute² be solved on the UN Resolutions of 1948! As for borders themselves: what is Europe today but a borderless continent? You critique the idea of the nation-state and yet you want to re-invent the wheel by supporting yet another nation-state in independent Kashmir. Why, when a 21st c. solution in the 4-point formula, similar to the form and content of the EU, could be in the making? Best wishes, Sonia On 22/10/10 8:10 PM, "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" wrote: > Dear Sonia, (don't worry Pawan, its a lot less than '3000 lines') > > I said - " I do not agree with much of what Geelani Saheb represents > politically, or ideologically, but I have no hesitation in saying that what he > said yesterday, was surprising for its gentleness, for its consideration, for > its moderation, even for its liberality and open heartedness." > > What part of this sentence seems to suggest that I am 'aligning' with SAS > Geelani. The 'I do not agree with much' does not seem to indicate alignment, > or endorsement to me. The rest of the statement is a statement of fact. Were > SAS Geelani to have said words that were inflammatory yesterday, I would not > have hesitated to said that he had. Allow me to elaborate by way of an example > - I have never been in agreement with the political philosophy of M.K.Gandhi, > but I never make the mistake of saying that my disagreement with Gandhi (my > refusal to endorse Gandhian ideology and what it means politically) amounts to > my failure to recognize Gandhi's gentleness, his consideration, his > moderation, his liberality and its open heartedness. > > I have been strongly critical Islamist politics, including on this forum, > whenever I have considered it necessary to do so. That is one thing, and it is > where I would differ from SAS Geelani, explicitly, categorically, unless he > makes a statement, like the Mirwaiz did recently, abjuring an 'Islamist future > for Kashmir'. But to say that SAS Geelani has never expressed regret for the > violence that rocked even the pro-Azadi camp from within is specious. Kashmiri > polticians of all hues routinely issue condemnations of incidents of > terrorism, and targetted assasinations. Geelani, to my knowledge, has not been > any exception. Eyewitnesses speak of seeing him weeping at Abdul Ghani Lone's > funeral. I do not know, nor do I care, whether these tears were genuine. All I > am saying is that if the man has not said that he celebrates the assasins of > the elder Mirwaiz, or Abdul Ghani Lone, or the attacks on Dr. Shameema that > you mention, then, it is unfair to accuse him of 'Not Saying' the 'not > saying'. He condemns assasinations. He does not celebrate the assasin. This > means that he cannot be accused of being the source of the assasination, > unless other concrete evidence is brought to bear upon the case. > > You may be right when you say that SAS Geelani may be saying one thing in > Delhi and another in Srinagar. I am not here to judge the sincerity, or lack > of, or ambiguity, of these statements. I think politically, the significant > thing is that whatever he may have said in the past, SAS Geelani, HAS to speak > a language today that is not secterian. He may have done so in the past. Let > us remember that he was an elected member of the J&K assembly for more than > one term in the past, and that means he had to swear fealty of some sort to > the Indian constitution. Judging by this, we should be able to evaluate his > 'Islamist' commitments in the light of his sometime loyalty to an apparently > secular constitution. If the sake of argument, we say that we should take > seriously what came 'after' as representing the 'maturing' of his position, > then, if his avowedly 'secterian' / Islamist / Pro-Pakistan phase came after > his phase as an MLA of the J&K assembly, then, so too has this 'current' phase > come 'after' his secterian posturing. I am not the one who needs to split > these hairs, but clearly, if some emphasis is bieng given to chronology as a > way of attributing the man's politics to the man's biography, then let's stay > consistent, and say, that if the current SAS Geelani is saying things that > don't seem to require the automatic assumption of an Isamic state (which is > what we would expect from the 'old' Geelani, then, we have every reason to > take it as seriously as when he made his decision to abandon 'mainstream' > electoral politics in Jammu and Kashmir for the hardline fringe. > > Indeed, I would go so far as to say that as far as we are concerned, we should > assume, and hold him, and his followers, responsible to the Œevolution¹ of > their statements, as they occur. If he goes back on the broad, liberal nature > of a vision for Azad kashmir (which, incidentally, among other things, > included the somewhat whimsical detail of a provision of compensation for > damages were a believing Muslim to damage a bottle of alchohl of a > non-believer), then, we should hold him responsible for that regression. He > made a speech that was refreshingly free of Islamist rhetoric yesterday, that > spoke in the broad terms of 'Insaaniyat' - Humanity. If Atal Behari Vajpayee > can be appreciated, as indeed he should have been, for speaking in terms of > 'Insaaniyat' when it came to thinking about the solution to the question of > Jammu and Kashmir, why could the mainstream media not pick up the fact that at > least in stated terms, SAS Geelani was making as major a move, by invoking > 'Insaaniyat' over secterian considerations, exactly as Vajpayee had done. > Recognizing this does not require us to align with, or endorse, either SAS > Geelani, or Atal Behari Vajpayee, it simply requires us to register a fact > that a major move is in process. That politics is being transformed, even as > we speak. I am amazed that this recognition is being painted as 'alignment, or > endorsement'. I am amazed that this recognition is not getting the space I > think it deserves, simply as a NEWS story. SAS Geelani says he wishes India to > be a strong country, a regional power, that he supports (in principle) a > future permanent place for India on the United Natons Security Council, once > Kashmir is liberated - in other words, he is saying, let us go, and we will > stand with you, dont you think this is BIG news. That is what I was trying to > talk about. Trying to talk about does not make me a camp follower of SAS > Geelani or any other politician, in India, Kashmir, or elsewhere. > > My sense is, the movement for Azadi in Kashmir has gone beyond the persona of > SAS Geelani, and while he is universally respected for his integrity and > incorruptability, his word is by no means, Œlaw¹. He, and other leaders like > him, are being Œled¹ as much as they are Œleading¹ the people they claim to > represent. Part of this process means giving up the secterian rhetoric that > people in Kashmir genuinely feel alienated by. We should welcome this > development. > > Now, I come to the views that he holds regarding independence and merger with > Pakistan. He has said, including in his recent interview with Seema Mustafa > that he PERSONALLY prefers accession to Pakistan, but that he is willing to > abide by whatever the people of Jammu and Kashmir decide. I do not think that > the people of Jammu and Kashmir have a future with Pakistan.So, I disagree > with SAS Geelani's personal view. I strongly argue for a demilitarized, > independent, secular Jammu and Kashmir. That makes me someone who does not > endorse SAS Geelani's position. Let's look at thigns this way, had this been > 1935, I would probably have not been in agreement with M.K. Gandhi's vision of > what he thought the future of South Asia and India ought to be. But that does > not mean that I would dismiss Gandhi as irrelevant, or someone to be mocked > and reviled. I would engage with him politicially, as many currents in India > at that time did. They were not uncritical of Gandhi (from the left and the > right) but they knew that Gandhi's voice had a certain resonance. I think that > the attitude that people have towards SAS Geelani is not dissimilar. They may > not agree with him on many counts, and most Kashmiris that I know personally > would fit that description. But none would want to dismiss or demonize him. > Primarily because of his unwillingness to be an occasional pawn in the hands > of the occupation. > > I have yet to come across an Indian politician who is willing to say, on the > record, that he PERSONALLY prefers that Jammu and Kashmir stay with India, but > will respect whatever the people of Jammu and Kashmir decide in a free and > fair plebiscite. If that were to be the case, then we would get much further > than where we are today in Kashmir. I have no quarrel with those who want > Kashmir to stay in India. Theirs is a point of view. It needs to be freely > heard, freely debated, and if is convincing to the people of Jammu and > Kashmir, best of luck to those who carry the day. What I am against is > maintaining Jammu and Kashmir as parts of the Indian Union by force. By > violence. By occupation. > > Finally, I come to the five points, and whether or not, sticking to the point > about Kashmir being disputed is an obstacle. Lets face facts. Kashmir is a > dispute. Every single map of the world that is not printed in India shows it, > visually, as a disputed territory. That is why the Government of India has to > put its silly ink stamp on atlases. That is why there is a United Nations > Observer group in Delhi, Islamabad and Srinagar. United Nations observers are > present, in the same way, in say Cyprus (another dispute) Israel / Palestine, > another dispute. What is the big deal in saying, yes, it is a dispute. Will > India disappear if the public secret is admitted to? As far as I am concerned > borders, and sovereignty, are less important than the lives of people. If > discussing a border, and what it means, can be a method to save lives, then > refusing to do so, is a crime. The Government of India can offer to 'discuss' > - sovereignty over those areas of the India-Tibet border that were taken by > force majeure by British Imperial power, but it will sacrifice the lives of > hundreds of thousands of people in order to keep the fetish of the Indian > Union's soveriegnty and integrity alive in the case of Jammu and Kashmir. > This policy seems to me to be totally criminal and misguided. > > Borders are made by human beings, and can be changed by human beings. The > geographical expression of the Union of India is not divinely ordained. > Sensible people all over the world, understand that maps can change, and that > they do change. We hope that the map of China can someday be drawn in Chinese > school text books without engulfing Tibet. If that can be a reasonable desire, > and not be seen as an 'obstruction', why should a similar desire be seen as an > obstruction in the case of India and Jammu and Kashmir. Arnab Goswami > repeatedly used the word 'splittist' yestyerday to refer to all those who were > speaking at the meeting at the LTG yesterday. A word that is used by the > Chinese government and the Chinese Communist Party whenever it refers to the > Dalai Lama and the movement for a free Tibet. Are we (our government, sections > of our media) aping the Chinese government and the behemoth of the Chinese > Communist Party in aligning and endorsing ourselves with the fetish of a man > made fiction of sovereignty. I should hope that we can do better than that. > > best regards, > > Shuddha > > > > > From taraprakash at gmail.com Sun Oct 24 01:35:07 2010 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 16:05:07 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Geelani announced one Article of the Constitutionof Free Kashmir - its "Liquor Policy" References: <655243.50391.qm@web112614.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><963D2A87-EB89-41A4-906B-649EC4B7FD08@sarai.net><0CF11F1FC9D3475789B2BFA4AE9A8FAA@tara> Message-ID: <65EBC21086BB4302958257031F3C2ED9@tara> But dear Inder Salim ji. I think I read that statement and expressed my skepticism. If Inder Salim ji says he does not support violence but glorifies stone pelters on any forum to do with Kashmiri separatists, I will have reason to be skeptical about his statement about nonviolence. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Inder Salim" To: "reader-list" Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2010 3:52 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Geelani announced one Article of the Constitutionof Free Kashmir - its "Liquor Policy" > But dear Taraprakash ji > Shudda concludes > > "By the way, none of this means that I agree with Mr. SAS Geelani;s > vision of the future. I am merely stating the facts that I know and > witnessed." > > > > > Inbox > X > > cashmeeri > Geelani announced one Article of the Constitution of Free Kashmir - its > "Liqu... > > 2:38 PM (22 hours ago) > > Reply > > | > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > Well, on these grounds, Syed Ali Shah Geelani is more moderate than > Mohandas ... > > 3:03 PM (22 hours ago) > Shuddhabrata SenguptaLoading... > 3:03 PM (22 hours ago) > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > to cashmeeri, Sarai > > show details 3:03 PM (22 hours ago) > > > > Well, on these grounds, Syed Ali Shah Geelani is more moderate than > Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi, who advocated total prohibition, > (regardless of whether one was or was not a believer in any religion) > and was even against the drinking of tea. Does that mean that we think > that his vision of 'Ram Rajya' would be identical to what Aalok Aima > considers to be an Islamic state? > > Incidentally, the state of Gujarat, has consistently imposed total > prohibition in deference to M.K. Gandhi's ideas on prohibition for as > long as it has existed as a state of the Indian Union. So, as per Mr. > Aima's suggestion, would we now be prepared to admit that Mr. Modi's > Gujarat (and the Gujarat of all his predecessors) is the closest we > have come to having an 'islamic State' in India. Oh no, the closest we > actually came to being an Islamic state in India was actually during > Morarji Desai;s prime ministership, when some of the current champions > of Hindutva were in power, when total prohibition was imposed on all > of India. In fact we came even closer than the vision of SAS Geelani, > which at least allows the 'non-believer' his or her daily tipple? > Incidentally, Mr. Geelani went on to suggest that if a bottle of > alchohl belongiing to a non believer was willingly or unwillingly > damaged by a Muslim, then the state would have to compensate the > non-believer for that damage. I haven;t quite heard of an Islamic > state willing to pay people to drink alchohl (if their bottle has been > damaged). He went on to quote an 'aayat' that said - "Muslims, do not > insult even the idols (but) of the idol worshippers, for they will > insult your God in return" and that the obligations of humanity are > binding in our relations even with those we consider to be our > enemies. Interesting stuff, coming as it does from the man who is so > offen held up as a figure of inflexible bigotry. > > By the way, none of this means that I agree with Mr. SAS Geelani;s > vision of the future. I am merely stating the facts that I know and > witnessed. > > best > > Shuddha > - Show quoted text - > > > > On 22-Oct-10, at 2:38 PM, cashmeeri wrote: > > - Show quoted text - > > Geelani announced one Article of the Constitution of Free Kashmir > - its "Liquor Policy": > > http://www.prokerala.com/news/articles/a176267.html > > "The system of justice in an independent Jammu and Kashmir would > be such that even liquor would not be banned for non-Muslims. It would > be prohibited fo......r the Muslim majority but if minorities feel > they want to have liquor they would be allowed to consume as their > right," > > Hello!!!! Hello!!!! > I thought it was going to be a Secular Free Kashmir. This sounds > suspiciously like an Islamic Free Kashmir. > > Interesting prospect : Free Kashmir ..... no Non-Muslims ..... no > Liquor > > Maybe it is the "Tourism Policy" > > ............. aalok aima > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > Reply > > Reply to all > > Forward > > > > Reply > > | > TaraPrakash > to Shuddhabrata, cashmeeri, Sarai > > show details 9:49 PM (15 hours ago) > > The point probably the mailer was making and you are missing is that > the assumption is that SASG's "free" Kashmir will be primarily an > Islamic state that will allow some unislamic things to happen. This is > the same vision of Hindu Rashtra that Advani was selling to Indians > when BJP was being seen as taking power away in India. > > That you don't necessarily agree with SASG makes no freaking sense to > me especially when you have unequivocally blatantly unskeptically > defended and justified SASG on this forum. By becoming a SASG stooge > you have joined the ranks of RSS. By putting SASG and MK Gandhi in the > same sentence you killed the embodiment of nonviolence once more, and > joined RSS ranks in more than one way. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" > > To: "cashmeeri" > Cc: "Sarai" > Sent: Friday, October 22, 2010 5:33 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Geelani announced one Article of the > Constitutionof Free Kashmir - its "Liquor Policy" > - Show quoted text - > > > > > > Well, on these grounds, Syed Ali Shah Geelani is more moderate > than Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi, who advocated total prohibition, > (regardless of whether one was or was not a believer in any religion) > and was even against the drinking of tea. Does that mean that we > think that his vision of 'Ram Rajya' would be identical to what > Aalok Aima considers to be an Islamic state? > > Incidentally, the state of Gujarat, has consistently imposed total > prohibition in deference to M.K. Gandhi's ideas on prohibition for as > long as it has existed as a state of the Indian Union. So, as per Mr. > Aima's suggestion, would we now be prepared to admit that Mr. Modi's > Gujarat (and the Gujarat of all his predecessors) is the closest we > have come to having an 'islamic State' in India. Oh no, the closest > we actually came to being an Islamic state in India was actually > during Morarji Desai;s prime ministership, when some of the current > champions of Hindutva were in power, when total prohibition was > imposed on all of India. In fact we came even closer than the vision > of SAS Geelani, which at least allows the 'non-believer' his or her > daily tipple? Incidentally, Mr. Geelani went on to suggest that if a > bottle of alchohl belongiing to a non believer was willingly or > unwillingly damaged by a Muslim, then the state would have to > compensate the non-believer for that damage. I haven;t quite heard of > an Islamic state willing to pay people to drink alchohl (if their > bottle has been damaged). He went on to quote an 'aayat' that said - > "Muslims, do not insult even the idols (but) of the idol worshippers, > for they will insult your God in return" and that the obligations of > humanity are binding in our relations even with those we consider to > be our enemies. Interesting stuff, coming as it does from the man > who is so offen held up as a figure of inflexible bigotry. > > By the way, none of this means that I agree with Mr. SAS Geelani;s > vision of the future. I am merely stating the facts that I know and > witnessed. > > best > > Shuddha > > > On 22-Oct-10, at 2:38 PM, cashmeeri wrote: > > > Geelani announced one Article of the Constitution of Free > Kashmir - its "Liquor Policy": > > http://www.prokerala.com/news/articles/a176267.html > > "The system of justice in an independent Jammu and Kashmir > would be such that even liquor would not be banned for non-Muslims. > It would be prohibited fo......r the Muslim majority but if > minorities feel they want to have liquor they would be allowed to > consume as their right," > > Hello!!!! Hello!!!! > I thought it was going to be a Secular Free Kashmir. This > sounds suspiciously like an Islamic Free Kashmir. > > Interesting prospect : Free Kashmir ..... no Non-Muslims ..... > no Liquor > > Maybe it is the "Tourism Policy" > > ............. aalok aima > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > Reply > > Reply to all > > Forward > > > > > On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 9:49 PM, TaraPrakash > wrote: >> The point probably the mailer was making and you are missing is that the >> assumption is that SASG's "free" Kashmir will be primarily an Islamic >> state >> that will allow some unislamic things to happen. This is the same vision >> of >> Hindu Rashtra that Advani was selling to Indians when BJP was being seen >> as >> taking power away in India. >> >> That you don't necessarily agree with SASG makes no freaking sense to me >> especially when you have unequivocally blatantly unskeptically defended >> and >> justified SASG on this forum. By becoming a SASG stooge you have joined >> the >> ranks of RSS. By putting SASG and MK Gandhi in the same sentence you >> killed >> the embodiment of nonviolence once more, and joined RSS ranks in more >> than >> one way. >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" >> >> To: "cashmeeri" >> Cc: "Sarai" >> Sent: Friday, October 22, 2010 5:33 AM >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Geelani announced one Article of the >> Constitutionof Free Kashmir - its "Liquor Policy" >> >> >>> >>> >>> Well, on these grounds, Syed Ali Shah Geelani is more moderate than >>> Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi, who advocated total prohibition, (regardless >>> of >>> whether one was or was not a believer in any religion) and was even >>> against >>> the drinking of tea. Does that mean that we think that his vision of >>> 'Ram >>> Rajya' would be identical to what Aalok Aima considers to be an Islamic >>> state? >>> >>> Incidentally, the state of Gujarat, has consistently imposed total >>> prohibition in deference to M.K. Gandhi's ideas on prohibition for as >>> long >>> as it has existed as a state of the Indian Union. So, as per Mr. Aima's >>> suggestion, would we now be prepared to admit that Mr. Modi's Gujarat >>> (and >>> the Gujarat of all his predecessors) is the closest we have come to >>> having >>> an 'islamic State' in India. Oh no, the closest we actually came to >>> being >>> an Islamic state in India was actually during Morarji Desai;s prime >>> ministership, when some of the current champions of Hindutva were in >>> power, >>> when total prohibition was imposed on all of India. In fact we came even >>> closer than the vision of SAS Geelani, which at least allows the >>> 'non-believer' his or her daily tipple? Incidentally, Mr. Geelani went >>> on >>> to suggest that if a bottle of alchohl belongiing to a non believer was >>> willingly or unwillingly damaged by a Muslim, then the state would have >>> to >>> compensate the non-believer for that damage. I haven;t quite heard of an >>> Islamic state willing to pay people to drink alchohl (if their bottle >>> has >>> been damaged). He went on to quote an 'aayat' that said - "Muslims, do >>> not >>> insult even the idols (but) of the idol worshippers, for they will >>> insult >>> your God in return" and that the obligations of humanity are binding in >>> our >>> relations even with those we consider to be our enemies. Interesting >>> stuff, coming as it does from the man who is so offen held up as a >>> figure >>> of inflexible bigotry. >>> >>> By the way, none of this means that I agree with Mr. SAS Geelani;s >>> vision >>> of the future. I am merely stating the facts that I know and witnessed. >>> >>> best >>> >>> Shuddha >>> >>> >>> On 22-Oct-10, at 2:38 PM, cashmeeri wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Geelani announced one Article of the Constitution of Free Kashmir - its >>>> "Liquor Policy": >>>> >>>> http://www.prokerala.com/news/articles/a176267.html >>>> >>>> "The system of justice in an independent Jammu and Kashmir would be >>>> such >>>> that even liquor would not be banned for non-Muslims. It would be >>>> prohibited fo......r the Muslim majority but if minorities feel they >>>> want >>>> to have liquor they would be allowed to consume as their right," >>>> >>>> Hello!!!! Hello!!!! >>>> I thought it was going to be a Secular Free Kashmir. This sounds >>>> suspiciously like an Islamic Free Kashmir. >>>> >>>> Interesting prospect : Free Kashmir ..... no Non-Muslims ..... no >>>> Liquor >>>> >>>> Maybe it is the "Tourism Policy" >>>> >>>> ............. aalok aima >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >>> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >>> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >>> Raqs Media Collective >>> shuddha at sarai.net >>> www.sarai.net >>> www.raqsmediacollective.net >>> >>> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe >> in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pheeta.ram at gmail.com Sun Oct 24 03:00:05 2010 From: pheeta.ram at gmail.com (Pheeta Ram) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 03:00:05 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Geelani announced one Article of the Constitutionof Free Kashmir - its "Liquor Policy" In-Reply-To: <65EBC21086BB4302958257031F3C2ED9@tara> References: <655243.50391.qm@web112614.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <963D2A87-EB89-41A4-906B-649EC4B7FD08@sarai.net> <0CF11F1FC9D3475789B2BFA4AE9A8FAA@tara> <65EBC21086BB4302958257031F3C2ED9@tara> Message-ID: Any act of self-defense against a tyrant is never violence. Any act by a tyrant, however seemingly benevolent, is always violence. If i catch you by your throat and you try to push me in order to save yourself, would you like to call your act of self-defense 'violence'? You won't. It is the will to self-preservation that makes life possible on this earth. Try choking yourself to death, you can't for your own body shall rebel against you, it shall breathe itself out of your grasp. The right to rebellion is inbuilt in the human body, is always already given. Bodies don't lie! Remember, little David brought down the giant Goliath by stones. The mythical image of the stone-pelter goes back ages. Please don't bullshit about unholy 'violence-non-violence' dyad, it gives bullshit a bad name! On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 1:35 AM, TaraPrakash wrote: > But dear Inder Salim ji. I think I read that statement and expressed my > skepticism. If Inder Salim ji says he does not support violence but > glorifies stone pelters on any forum to do with Kashmiri separatists, I will > have reason to be skeptical about his statement about nonviolence. > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Inder Salim" > To: "reader-list" > Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2010 3:52 AM > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Geelani announced one Article of the > Constitutionof Free Kashmir - its "Liquor Policy" > > > But dear Taraprakash ji >> Shudda concludes >> >> "By the way, none of this means that I agree with Mr. SAS Geelani;s >> vision of the future. I am merely stating the facts that I know and >> witnessed." >> >> >> >> >> Inbox >> X >> >> cashmeeri >> Geelani announced one Article of the Constitution of Free Kashmir - its >> "Liqu... >> >> 2:38 PM (22 hours ago) >> >> Reply >> >> | >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> Well, on these grounds, Syed Ali Shah Geelani is more moderate than >> Mohandas ... >> >> 3:03 PM (22 hours ago) >> Shuddhabrata SenguptaLoading... >> 3:03 PM (22 hours ago) >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> to cashmeeri, Sarai >> >> show details 3:03 PM (22 hours ago) >> >> >> >> Well, on these grounds, Syed Ali Shah Geelani is more moderate than >> Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi, who advocated total prohibition, >> (regardless of whether one was or was not a believer in any religion) >> and was even against the drinking of tea. Does that mean that we think >> that his vision of 'Ram Rajya' would be identical to what Aalok Aima >> considers to be an Islamic state? >> >> Incidentally, the state of Gujarat, has consistently imposed total >> prohibition in deference to M.K. Gandhi's ideas on prohibition for as >> long as it has existed as a state of the Indian Union. So, as per Mr. >> Aima's suggestion, would we now be prepared to admit that Mr. Modi's >> Gujarat (and the Gujarat of all his predecessors) is the closest we >> have come to having an 'islamic State' in India. Oh no, the closest we >> actually came to being an Islamic state in India was actually during >> Morarji Desai;s prime ministership, when some of the current champions >> of Hindutva were in power, when total prohibition was imposed on all >> of India. In fact we came even closer than the vision of SAS Geelani, >> which at least allows the 'non-believer' his or her daily tipple? >> Incidentally, Mr. Geelani went on to suggest that if a bottle of >> alchohl belongiing to a non believer was willingly or unwillingly >> damaged by a Muslim, then the state would have to compensate the >> non-believer for that damage. I haven;t quite heard of an Islamic >> state willing to pay people to drink alchohl (if their bottle has been >> damaged). He went on to quote an 'aayat' that said - "Muslims, do not >> insult even the idols (but) of the idol worshippers, for they will >> insult your God in return" and that the obligations of humanity are >> binding in our relations even with those we consider to be our >> enemies. Interesting stuff, coming as it does from the man who is so >> offen held up as a figure of inflexible bigotry. >> >> By the way, none of this means that I agree with Mr. SAS Geelani;s >> vision of the future. I am merely stating the facts that I know and >> witnessed. >> >> best >> >> Shuddha >> - Show quoted text - >> >> >> >> On 22-Oct-10, at 2:38 PM, cashmeeri wrote: >> >> - Show quoted text - >> >> Geelani announced one Article of the Constitution of Free Kashmir >> - its "Liquor Policy": >> >> http://www.prokerala.com/news/articles/a176267.html >> >> "The system of justice in an independent Jammu and Kashmir would >> be such that even liquor would not be banned for non-Muslims. It would >> be prohibited fo......r the Muslim majority but if minorities feel >> they want to have liquor they would be allowed to consume as their >> right," >> >> Hello!!!! Hello!!!! >> I thought it was going to be a Secular Free Kashmir. This sounds >> suspiciously like an Islamic Free Kashmir. >> >> Interesting prospect : Free Kashmir ..... no Non-Muslims ..... no Liquor >> >> Maybe it is the "Tourism Policy" >> >> ............. aalok aima >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >> Raqs Media Collective >> shuddha at sarai.net >> www.sarai.net >> www.raqsmediacollective.net >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> Reply >> >> Reply to all >> >> Forward >> >> >> >> Reply >> >> | >> TaraPrakash >> to Shuddhabrata, cashmeeri, Sarai >> >> show details 9:49 PM (15 hours ago) >> >> The point probably the mailer was making and you are missing is that >> the assumption is that SASG's "free" Kashmir will be primarily an >> Islamic state that will allow some unislamic things to happen. This is >> the same vision of Hindu Rashtra that Advani was selling to Indians >> when BJP was being seen as taking power away in India. >> >> That you don't necessarily agree with SASG makes no freaking sense to >> me especially when you have unequivocally blatantly unskeptically >> defended and justified SASG on this forum. By becoming a SASG stooge >> you have joined the ranks of RSS. By putting SASG and MK Gandhi in the >> same sentence you killed the embodiment of nonviolence once more, and >> joined RSS ranks in more than one way. >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" < >> shuddha at sarai.net> >> To: "cashmeeri" >> Cc: "Sarai" >> Sent: Friday, October 22, 2010 5:33 AM >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Geelani announced one Article of the >> Constitutionof Free Kashmir - its "Liquor Policy" >> - Show quoted text - >> >> >> >> >> >> Well, on these grounds, Syed Ali Shah Geelani is more moderate >> than Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi, who advocated total prohibition, >> (regardless of whether one was or was not a believer in any religion) >> and was even against the drinking of tea. Does that mean that we >> think that his vision of 'Ram Rajya' would be identical to what >> Aalok Aima considers to be an Islamic state? >> >> Incidentally, the state of Gujarat, has consistently imposed total >> prohibition in deference to M.K. Gandhi's ideas on prohibition for as >> long as it has existed as a state of the Indian Union. So, as per Mr. >> Aima's suggestion, would we now be prepared to admit that Mr. Modi's >> Gujarat (and the Gujarat of all his predecessors) is the closest we >> have come to having an 'islamic State' in India. Oh no, the closest >> we actually came to being an Islamic state in India was actually >> during Morarji Desai;s prime ministership, when some of the current >> champions of Hindutva were in power, when total prohibition was >> imposed on all of India. In fact we came even closer than the vision >> of SAS Geelani, which at least allows the 'non-believer' his or her >> daily tipple? Incidentally, Mr. Geelani went on to suggest that if a >> bottle of alchohl belongiing to a non believer was willingly or >> unwillingly damaged by a Muslim, then the state would have to >> compensate the non-believer for that damage. I haven;t quite heard of >> an Islamic state willing to pay people to drink alchohl (if their >> bottle has been damaged). He went on to quote an 'aayat' that said - >> "Muslims, do not insult even the idols (but) of the idol worshippers, >> for they will insult your God in return" and that the obligations of >> humanity are binding in our relations even with those we consider to >> be our enemies. Interesting stuff, coming as it does from the man >> who is so offen held up as a figure of inflexible bigotry. >> >> By the way, none of this means that I agree with Mr. SAS Geelani;s >> vision of the future. I am merely stating the facts that I know and >> witnessed. >> >> best >> >> Shuddha >> >> >> On 22-Oct-10, at 2:38 PM, cashmeeri wrote: >> >> >> Geelani announced one Article of the Constitution of Free >> Kashmir - its "Liquor Policy": >> >> http://www.prokerala.com/news/articles/a176267.html >> >> "The system of justice in an independent Jammu and Kashmir >> would be such that even liquor would not be banned for non-Muslims. >> It would be prohibited fo......r the Muslim majority but if >> minorities feel they want to have liquor they would be allowed to >> consume as their right," >> >> Hello!!!! Hello!!!! >> I thought it was going to be a Secular Free Kashmir. This >> sounds suspiciously like an Islamic Free Kashmir. >> >> Interesting prospect : Free Kashmir ..... no Non-Muslims ..... >> no Liquor >> >> Maybe it is the "Tourism Policy" >> >> ............. aalok aima >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >> with subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >> Raqs Media Collective >> shuddha at sarai.net >> www.sarai.net >> www.raqsmediacollective.net >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> Reply >> >> Reply to all >> >> Forward >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 9:49 PM, TaraPrakash >> wrote: >> >>> The point probably the mailer was making and you are missing is that the >>> assumption is that SASG's "free" Kashmir will be primarily an Islamic >>> state >>> that will allow some unislamic things to happen. This is the same vision >>> of >>> Hindu Rashtra that Advani was selling to Indians when BJP was being seen >>> as >>> taking power away in India. >>> >>> That you don't necessarily agree with SASG makes no freaking sense to me >>> especially when you have unequivocally blatantly unskeptically defended >>> and >>> justified SASG on this forum. By becoming a SASG stooge you have joined >>> the >>> ranks of RSS. By putting SASG and MK Gandhi in the same sentence you >>> killed >>> the embodiment of nonviolence once more, and joined RSS ranks in more >>> than >>> one way. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" >>> >>> To: "cashmeeri" >>> Cc: "Sarai" >>> Sent: Friday, October 22, 2010 5:33 AM >>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Geelani announced one Article of the >>> Constitutionof Free Kashmir - its "Liquor Policy" >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> Well, on these grounds, Syed Ali Shah Geelani is more moderate than >>>> Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi, who advocated total prohibition, (regardless >>>> of >>>> whether one was or was not a believer in any religion) and was even >>>> against >>>> the drinking of tea. Does that mean that we think that his vision of >>>> 'Ram >>>> Rajya' would be identical to what Aalok Aima considers to be an Islamic >>>> state? >>>> >>>> Incidentally, the state of Gujarat, has consistently imposed total >>>> prohibition in deference to M.K. Gandhi's ideas on prohibition for as >>>> long >>>> as it has existed as a state of the Indian Union. So, as per Mr. Aima's >>>> suggestion, would we now be prepared to admit that Mr. Modi's Gujarat >>>> (and >>>> the Gujarat of all his predecessors) is the closest we have come to >>>> having >>>> an 'islamic State' in India. Oh no, the closest we actually came to >>>> being >>>> an Islamic state in India was actually during Morarji Desai;s prime >>>> ministership, when some of the current champions of Hindutva were in >>>> power, >>>> when total prohibition was imposed on all of India. In fact we came even >>>> closer than the vision of SAS Geelani, which at least allows the >>>> 'non-believer' his or her daily tipple? Incidentally, Mr. Geelani went >>>> on >>>> to suggest that if a bottle of alchohl belongiing to a non believer was >>>> willingly or unwillingly damaged by a Muslim, then the state would have >>>> to >>>> compensate the non-believer for that damage. I haven;t quite heard of an >>>> Islamic state willing to pay people to drink alchohl (if their bottle >>>> has >>>> been damaged). He went on to quote an 'aayat' that said - "Muslims, do >>>> not >>>> insult even the idols (but) of the idol worshippers, for they will >>>> insult >>>> your God in return" and that the obligations of humanity are binding in >>>> our >>>> relations even with those we consider to be our enemies. Interesting >>>> stuff, coming as it does from the man who is so offen held up as a >>>> figure >>>> of inflexible bigotry. >>>> >>>> By the way, none of this means that I agree with Mr. SAS Geelani;s >>>> vision >>>> of the future. I am merely stating the facts that I know and witnessed. >>>> >>>> best >>>> >>>> Shuddha >>>> >>>> >>>> On 22-Oct-10, at 2:38 PM, cashmeeri wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> Geelani announced one Article of the Constitution of Free Kashmir - its >>>>> "Liquor Policy": >>>>> >>>>> http://www.prokerala.com/news/articles/a176267.html >>>>> >>>>> "The system of justice in an independent Jammu and Kashmir would be >>>>> such >>>>> that even liquor would not be banned for non-Muslims. It would be >>>>> prohibited fo......r the Muslim majority but if minorities feel they >>>>> want >>>>> to have liquor they would be allowed to consume as their right," >>>>> >>>>> Hello!!!! Hello!!!! >>>>> I thought it was going to be a Secular Free Kashmir. This sounds >>>>> suspiciously like an Islamic Free Kashmir. >>>>> >>>>> Interesting prospect : Free Kashmir ..... no Non-Muslims ..... no >>>>> Liquor >>>>> >>>>> Maybe it is the "Tourism Policy" >>>>> >>>>> ............. aalok aima >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>> >>>> >>>> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >>>> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >>>> Raqs Media Collective >>>> shuddha at sarai.net >>>> www.sarai.net >>>> www.raqsmediacollective.net >>>> >>>> >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> >>> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe >>> in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From pheeta.ram at gmail.com Sun Oct 24 03:45:24 2010 From: pheeta.ram at gmail.com (Pheeta Ram) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 03:45:24 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Wikileaks and the End of America! Message-ID: Dear all Wikileaks has brought before us another batch of facts about America's sinful truth: Its calculated genocide of Iraqi civilians. In an article by Eric Schmitt in the New York Times, he quotes from the blog of a guy named Steven Aftergood, head of the project on government secrecy at the Federation of American Scientists, who wrote: “WikiLeaks must be counted among the enemies of open society because it does not respect the rule of law nor does it honor the rights of individuals,” he wrote. Obviously, the "open society" here is America and the "the rights of individuals" are the Rights of Americans. America, an "open society", MY FOOT! And, whatever happened to the rights of the people of the rest of the world? You illegally occupy a country, kill unarmed civilians ( children and women included) and are now shit scared when the brothers, husbands and sons of these very people are after your lives. Remember, you can fight an enemy who is afraid of getting hurt, of dying, but you can't win against an enemy who wants to die with you because you have decimated everything he could have hoped to live for. I remember watching a documentary a few years back. This guy is interviewing an orphan ( around 8-9 years of age) whose entire family and the village was wiped out when the Americans dropped a bomb on a marriage procession somewhere in Afganistan. The interviewer asks him:" Who killed your parents?" "AMRIKAA!" "Who is America?" Of course, this little boy doesn't know who or where America is but the look on his face is revelation enough of his anguish and his resolve that the mission of his life is "THE END OF AMERICA". Now, boy, who will save America? From sonia.jabbar at gmail.com Sun Oct 24 09:16:17 2010 From: sonia.jabbar at gmail.com (SJabbar) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 09:16:17 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Geelani announced one Article of the Constitutionof Free Kashmir - its "Liquor Policy" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Pheeta Ram (why on earth don't you use your real name?), You seem very clear about stone-pelters not being part of a well-thought out and sustained political program, but victims who are merely reacting to the violence of a tyrant. I am re-posting an article that I have circulated on the Sarai List before and I apologize to those who have read it already. The reason I am doing this is that the author seems to suggest a far more complex political reality than your tyrant-victim story. In fact, it suggests that your victim pretty much tyrannizes a scared and hapless population caught between literally a rock and a hard place. Revolutions are exciting; and revolutionaries are the most romantic of heroic figures. It's hard not to be spellbound when we see what appears to be one happening in our midst. But there are lessons to be learned in history. The fall of a tyrant doesn't automatically usher in an era of peace and prosperity. The fall of the Bastille and the end of the French monarchy did not usher in democracy or the French Republic. The fall of the Bastille was followed by a period of great anarchy, of the Great Terror, wars, a military dictatorship and a France headed by an emperor! This was followed by wars, the restoration of the monarchy, dictatorships, more wars, and 2 short-lived republics. It took 100 years before France settled down to being a republic-- so much for the speed and efficacy of revolutions. Best, sj Kashmir story ­ tragic, pathetic and sad Manzoor Anjum It is almost one month, life in Valley is frozen. Tourists have abandoned Kashmir; hotels are deserted; shops and other business establishment are shut and schools are closed. Most of the people are confined to the four walls of their homes; play grounds are missing the jolly kicks of local footballers and ebullient hits of young cricketers. And little kids, confined to their homes, are wondering why they are not allowed to go to the schools. This is happening so because the Hurriyat Conference led by senior separatist leader Syed Ali Geelani {and thus known as Hurriyat (G)} is issuing weekly strike and protest programmes. People are asked to observe strikes and take to streets in protest and they do so. Government retaliates by imposing curfew and restrictions; people defy curfew; clashes take place; bullets are fired and people die. People adhere to Hurriyat (G) calendar and therefore the conglomerate is genuinely happy that its writ runs and that it has made the state government a failure. The leadership of the amalgam would be proud that it has succeeded in making things difficult for the government. This success demands that the pot is kept boiling and that is what Hurriyat (G) is doing right now. The government, both state as well as central, agencies have failed to find any trace of Massarat Alam and Asiya Andrabi, who are busy issuing fresh progammes of agitation. Government claims that there are just a few stone pelters disturbing the peace but fact of the matter is that ³these few² are strong enough to keep thousands of police and CRPF personnel on tenterhooks. So it is Hurriyat (G) that runs the show and is in full command of the situation. And the way the conglomerate¹s programmes are success, one can conclude safely that people of Kashmir are with no one but Hurriyat (G) and this separatist amalgam is proving a success story. However, this is only one side of the story. When indefinite strikes started telling upon peoples¹ nerves; when their stomachs started churning for food; shops of essential commodities started opening by fives and tens in different markets. People, desperate to get eatables, rushed to these shops; some public transport including auto-rickshaws started plying on roads. And that was it! Groups of youth emerged on streets and forced the shopkeepers to pull the shutters of their shops down. They attacked vehicles and thrashed auto drivers. Private schools were warned not to open and Srinagar Municipal Corporation (SMC) trucks, that dared to venture into old city to clean it of thousands of MT of garbage that has piled their during protest and curfew days, were attacked and one truck set ablaze. So much so, in a shameful act, stone pelters thrashed some women with nettle near Handwara who were on way to some wedding and had thus defied the Hurriyat (G) protest orgramme. In interior localities of Srinagar, young boys attacked shops raising slogans ³Deen Ke Aage Duniya Kya² (How does world matter when it comes to religion). And thus Hurriyat (G) programme becomes a grand success. This is another side of the story. In one month, 17 precious lives have been lost; the academic career of children is devastated; Valley has suffered loses of nearly Rs. 8000 crores and what has been achieved? When protests in Kashmir were at the peak, foreign ministers of India and Pakistan met in Islamabad. Given the situation in Kashmir, one would have expected Kashmir on the top of the agenda. But Pakistan foreign minister himself admitted that Indian side showed no interest to talk about this issue. Despite the troubled situation here, Kashmir has hardly found any mention in international media and even Indian and Pakistani media doesn¹t give a hoot to whatever is happening here. Neither UN has taken any note, nor European Union, OIC or any other world body. Yes, if anything has been achieved that is a statement from Amnesty International seeking release of arrested lawyers and establishment of juvenile homes for younger prisoners. And tragic side of the story is that innocent people are made to believe that this agitation will get them freedom. As the chaos and confusion lingers on, voices from the very separatist camp are being raised against the frequent strikes. United Jehad Council (UJC) chief, Syed Sallahudin counseled the Hurriyat (G) not to go for indefinite strikes and while agitating, remain mindful of economy and education. Though the counsel was not taken well by stone pelters who even resented it but the question is why Sallahudin take one month to come out with such a sensible statement. Jamaat-e-Islami, that happens to be a constituent of Hurriyat (G) too has come out with identical statement asking Œleaders¹ to issue programmes in such a way that people are not stretched beyond their capacity. Jamaat and Sallahudin could have issued the same statements a few weeks back. Why did they not do so? Is it that they too were in the illusion that the agitational calendar of Hurriyat (G) will fetch Azadi? If yes, it could be termed as the saddest side of the whole story. And the dangerous side of the story is that following Syed Sallahudin¹s statements, newspapers received emails from anonymous people using derogatory language against him. In some parts of Valley, his effigies were burnt and a group of stone pelters addressed a press conference saying those who oppose the present strike and agitation are traitors. It indicates that there is a strong voice within separatist camp that is interested in continuation of strike. Earlier, the separatists would be seen in two camps ­ hardliners and moderates. But now it is clear that there are groups within groups. There are hardliners and ultra hardliners; there are moderates and pseudo-moderates. The divisions within separatist ranks have already resulted into deaths and destruction. One wonders whether a new phase of infighting is in the making. History tells us that when oppression and suppression reaches its all notorious heights, nations revolt. People ready themselves to do anything and everything to break the chains of slavery. They burry the apprehensions of death, destruction and defeat and revolt with full force. And at such a stage, the nations need leadership of wisdom and foresight. Such a leadership channelizes the peoples¹ sentiments and emotions; polishes their anger and directs them in the right direction. And when such leadership is not in sight, the anger turns into madness and people inflict more wounds to themselves. They enter a self-destructive mode and do everything that makes suffer none but the revolting people. History has so many such instances to teach us but unfortunately we are reluctant to learn. Freedom is a consensual ideal of a people. Without having a consensus and by imposing dictates, only disastrous results are to be expected. Na Kissi Pe Zakham Ayaan Koi, Na Kissi Ko Fikr Rafoo Ki Hai; Na Karam Hai Hum Pe Habeeb Ka, Na Nigah Hum Pe Adoo Ki Hai. (Neither anyone looks at our wounds, nor anyone tries to heal them; we are bereft of the love of our beloved and even the scorn of our foe). The author is the editor of Urdu daily Uqab and the article is translated from Urdu. On 24/10/10 3:00 AM, "Pheeta Ram" wrote: > Any act of self-defense against a tyrant is never violence. Any act by > a tyrant, however seemingly benevolent, is always violence. If i catch you by > your throat and you try to push me in order to save yourself, would you like > to call your act of self-defense 'violence'? You won't. It is the will to > self-preservation that makes life possible on this earth. Try choking yourself > to death, you can't for your own body shall rebel against you, it shall > breathe itself out of your grasp. The right to rebellion is inbuilt in the > human body, is always already given. Bodies don't lie! Remember, little David > brought down the giant Goliath by stones. The mythical image of the > stone-pelter goes back ages. Please don't bullshit about unholy > 'violence-non-violence' dyad, it gives bullshit a bad name! On Sun, Oct 24, > 2010 at 1:35 AM, TaraPrakash wrote: > But dear Inder > Salim ji. I think I read that statement and expressed my > skepticism. If > Inder Salim ji says he does not support violence but > glorifies stone pelters > on any forum to do with Kashmiri separatists, I will > have reason to be > skeptical about his statement about nonviolence. > > ----- Original Message > ----- From: "Inder Salim" > To: "reader-list" > > Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2010 3:52 AM > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Geelani announced one Article of the > > Constitutionof Free Kashmir - its "Liquor Policy" > > > But dear Taraprakash > ji >> Shudda concludes >> >> "By the way, none of this means that I agree with > Mr. SAS Geelani;s >> vision of the future. I am merely stating the facts that > I know and >> witnessed." >> >> >> >> >> Inbox >> X >> >> cashmeeri >> > Geelani announced one Article of the Constitution of Free Kashmir - its >> > "Liqu... >> >> 2:38 PM (22 hours ago) >> >> Reply >> >> | >> Shuddhabrata > Sengupta >> Well, on these grounds, Syed Ali Shah Geelani is more moderate > than >> Mohandas ... >> >> 3:03 PM (22 hours ago) >> Shuddhabrata > SenguptaLoading... >> 3:03 PM (22 hours ago) >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> to > cashmeeri, Sarai >> >> show details 3:03 PM (22 hours ago) >> >> >> >> Well, > on these grounds, Syed Ali Shah Geelani is more moderate than >> Mohandas > Karamchand Gandhi, who advocated total prohibition, >> (regardless of whether > one was or was not a believer in any religion) >> and was even against the > drinking of tea. Does that mean that we think >> that his vision of 'Ram > Rajya' would be identical to what Aalok Aima >> considers to be an Islamic > state? >> >> Incidentally, the state of Gujarat, has consistently imposed > total >> prohibition in deference to M.K. Gandhi's ideas on prohibition for > as >> long as it has existed as a state of the Indian Union. So, as per Mr. >> > Aima's suggestion, would we now be prepared to admit that Mr. Modi's >> > Gujarat (and the Gujarat of all his predecessors) is the closest we >> have > come to having an 'islamic State' in India. Oh no, the closest we >> actually > came to being an Islamic state in India was actually during >> Morarji Desai;s > prime ministership, when some of the current champions >> of Hindutva were in > power, when total prohibition was imposed on all >> of India. In fact we came > even closer than the vision of SAS Geelani, >> which at least allows the > 'non-believer' his or her daily tipple? >> Incidentally, Mr. Geelani went on > to suggest that if a bottle of >> alchohl belongiing to a non believer was > willingly or unwillingly >> damaged by a Muslim, then the state would have to > compensate the >> non-believer for that damage. I haven;t quite heard of an > Islamic >> state willing to pay people to drink alchohl (if their bottle has > been >> damaged). He went on to quote an 'aayat' that said - "Muslims, do > not >> insult even the idols (but) of the idol worshippers, for they will >> > insult your God in return" and that the obligations of humanity are >> binding > in our relations even with those we consider to be our >> enemies. > Interesting stuff, coming as it does from the man who is so >> offen held up > as a figure of inflexible bigotry. >> >> By the way, none of this means that I > agree with Mr. SAS Geelani;s >> vision of the future. I am merely stating the > facts that I know and >> witnessed. >> >> best >> >> Shuddha >> - Show quoted > text - >> >> >> >> On 22-Oct-10, at 2:38 PM, cashmeeri wrote: >> >> - Show > quoted text - >> >> Geelani announced one Article of the Constitution of > Free Kashmir >> - its "Liquor Policy": >> >> > http://www.prokerala.com/news/articles/a176267.html >> >> "The system of > justice in an independent Jammu and Kashmir would >> be such that even liquor > would not be banned for non-Muslims. It would >> be prohibited fo......r the > Muslim majority but if minorities feel >> they want to have liquor they would > be allowed to consume as their >> right," >> >> Hello!!!! Hello!!!! >> I > thought it was going to be a Secular Free Kashmir. This sounds >> suspiciously > like an Islamic Free Kashmir. >> >> Interesting prospect : Free Kashmir > ..... no Non-Muslims ..... no Liquor >> >> Maybe it is the "Tourism > Policy" >> >> ............. aalok aima >> >> >> >> > _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion > list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the > subject header. >> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> Shuddhabrata > Sengupta >> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >> Raqs Media Collective >> > shuddha at sarai.net >> www.sarai.net >> www.raqsmediacollective.net >> >> >> >> > _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion > list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the > subject header. >> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> Reply >> >> Reply to > all >> >> Forward >> >> >> >> Reply >> >> | >> TaraPrakash >> to Shuddhabrata, > cashmeeri, Sarai >> >> show details 9:49 PM (15 hours ago) >> >> The point > probably the mailer was making and you are missing is that >> the assumption > is that SASG's "free" Kashmir will be primarily an >> Islamic state that will > allow some unislamic things to happen. This is >> the same vision of Hindu > Rashtra that Advani was selling to Indians >> when BJP was being seen as > taking power away in India. >> >> That you don't necessarily agree with SASG > makes no freaking sense to >> me especially when you have unequivocally > blatantly unskeptically >> defended and justified SASG on this forum. By > becoming a SASG stooge >> you have joined the ranks of RSS. By putting SASG > and MK Gandhi in the >> same sentence you killed the embodiment of nonviolence > once more, and >> joined RSS ranks in more than one way. >> >> >> >> >> >> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" < >> > shuddha at sarai.net> >> To: "cashmeeri" >> Cc: "Sarai" > >> Sent: Friday, October 22, 2010 5:33 AM >> Subject: > Re: [Reader-list] Geelani announced one Article of the >> Constitutionof Free > Kashmir - its "Liquor Policy" >> - Show quoted text - >> >> >> >> >> >> > Well, on these grounds, Syed Ali Shah Geelani is more moderate >> than > Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi, who advocated total prohibition, >> (regardless of > whether one was or was not a believer in any religion) >> and was even against > the drinking of tea. Does that mean that we >> think that his vision of 'Ram > Rajya' would be identical to what >> Aalok Aima considers to be an Islamic > state? >> >> Incidentally, the state of Gujarat, has consistently imposed > total >> prohibition in deference to M.K. Gandhi's ideas on prohibition for > as >> long as it has existed as a state of the Indian Union. So, as per Mr. >> > Aima's suggestion, would we now be prepared to admit that Mr. Modi's >> > Gujarat (and the Gujarat of all his predecessors) is the closest we >> have > come to having an 'islamic State' in India. Oh no, the closest >> we actually > came to being an Islamic state in India was actually >> during Morarji Desai;s > prime ministership, when some of the current >> champions of Hindutva were in > power, when total prohibition was >> imposed on all of India. In fact we came > even closer than the vision >> of SAS Geelani, which at least allows the > 'non-believer' his or her >> daily tipple? Incidentally, Mr. Geelani went on > to suggest that if a >> bottle of alchohl belongiing to a non believer was > willingly or >> unwillingly damaged by a Muslim, then the state would have > to >> compensate the non-believer for that damage. I haven;t quite heard of >> > an Islamic state willing to pay people to drink alchohl (if their >> bottle > has been damaged). He went on to quote an 'aayat' that said - >> "Muslims, do > not insult even the idols (but) of the idol worshippers, >> for they will > insult your God in return" and that the obligations of >> humanity are binding > in our relations even with those we consider to >> be our enemies. > Interesting stuff, coming as it does from the man >> who is so offen held up > as a figure of inflexible bigotry. >> >> By the way, none of this means that > I agree with Mr. SAS Geelani;s >> vision of the future. I am merely stating > the facts that I know and >> witnessed. >> >> best >> >> Shuddha >> >> >> > On 22-Oct-10, at 2:38 PM, cashmeeri wrote: >> >> >> Geelani announced > one Article of the Constitution of Free >> Kashmir - its "Liquor > Policy": >> >> http://www.prokerala.com/news/articles/a176267.html >> >> > "The system of justice in an independent Jammu and Kashmir >> would be such > that even liquor would not be banned for non-Muslims. >> It would be > prohibited fo......r the Muslim majority but if >> minorities feel they want > to have liquor they would be allowed to >> consume as their right," >> >> > Hello!!!! Hello!!!! >> I thought it was going to be a Secular Free > Kashmir. This >> sounds suspiciously like an Islamic Free Kashmir. >> >> > Interesting prospect : Free Kashmir ..... no Non-Muslims ..... >> no > Liquor >> >> Maybe it is the "Tourism Policy" >> >> ............. > aalok aima >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques > & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net >> with subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> > Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >> Raqs Media > Collective >> shuddha at sarai.net >> www.sarai.net >> > www.raqsmediacollective.net >> >> >> > _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion > list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the > subject header. >> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> > _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion > list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the > subject header. >> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> Reply >> >> Reply to > all >> >> Forward >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 9:49 PM, TaraPrakash > >> wrote: >> >>> The point probably the mailer was > making and you are missing is that the >>> assumption is that SASG's "free" > Kashmir will be primarily an Islamic >>> state >>> that will allow some > unislamic things to happen. This is the same vision >>> of >>> Hindu Rashtra > that Advani was selling to Indians when BJP was being seen >>> as >>> taking > power away in India. >>> >>> That you don't necessarily agree with SASG makes > no freaking sense to me >>> especially when you have unequivocally blatantly > unskeptically defended >>> and >>> justified SASG on this forum. By becoming a > SASG stooge you have joined >>> the >>> ranks of RSS. By putting SASG and MK > Gandhi in the same sentence you >>> killed >>> the embodiment of nonviolence > once more, and joined RSS ranks in more >>> than >>> one > way. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shuddhabrata > Sengupta" >>> >>> To: "cashmeeri" > >>> Cc: "Sarai" >>> Sent: > Friday, October 22, 2010 5:33 AM >>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Geelani > announced one Article of the >>> Constitutionof Free Kashmir - its "Liquor > Policy" >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> Well, on these grounds, Syed Ali Shah Geelani is > more moderate than >>>> Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi, who advocated total > prohibition, (regardless >>>> of >>>> whether one was or was not a believer in > any religion) and was even >>>> against >>>> the drinking of tea. Does that > mean that we think that his vision of >>>> 'Ram >>>> Rajya' would be identical > to what Aalok Aima considers to be an Islamic >>>> state? >>>> >>>> > Incidentally, the state of Gujarat, has consistently imposed total >>>> > prohibition in deference to M.K. Gandhi's ideas on prohibition for as >>>> > long >>>> as it has existed as a state of the Indian Union. So, as per Mr. > Aima's >>>> suggestion, would we now be prepared to admit that Mr. Modi's > Gujarat >>>> (and >>>> the Gujarat of all his predecessors) is the closest we > have come to >>>> having >>>> an 'islamic State' in India. Oh no, the closest > we actually came to >>>> being >>>> an Islamic state in India was actually > during Morarji Desai;s prime >>>> ministership, when some of the current > champions of Hindutva were in >>>> power, >>>> when total prohibition was > imposed on all of India. In fact we came even >>>> closer than the vision of > SAS Geelani, which at least allows the >>>> 'non-believer' his or her daily > tipple? Incidentally, Mr. Geelani went >>>> on >>>> to suggest that if a > bottle of alchohl belongiing to a non believer was >>>> willingly or > unwillingly damaged by a Muslim, then the state would have >>>> to >>>> > compensate the non-believer for that damage. I haven;t quite heard of an >>>> > Islamic state willing to pay people to drink alchohl (if their bottle >>>> > has >>>> been damaged). He went on to quote an 'aayat' that said - "Muslims, > do >>>> not >>>> insult even the idols (but) of the idol worshippers, for they > will >>>> insult >>>> your God in return" and that the obligations of humanity > are binding in >>>> our >>>> relations even with those we consider to be our > enemies. Interesting >>>> stuff, coming as it does from the man who is so > offen held up as a >>>> figure >>>> of inflexible bigotry. >>>> >>>> By the > way, none of this means that I agree with Mr. SAS Geelani;s >>>> vision >>>> > of the future. I am merely stating the facts that I know and > witnessed. >>>> >>>> best >>>> >>>> Shuddha >>>> >>>> >>>> On 22-Oct-10, at > 2:38 PM, cashmeeri wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> Geelani announced one Article of the > Constitution of Free Kashmir - its >>>>> "Liquor Policy": >>>>> >>>>> > http://www.prokerala.com/news/articles/a176267.html >>>>> >>>>> "The system of > justice in an independent Jammu and Kashmir would be >>>>> such >>>>> that > even liquor would not be banned for non-Muslims. It would be >>>>> prohibited > fo......r the Muslim majority but if minorities feel they >>>>> want >>>>> to > have liquor they would be allowed to consume as their right," >>>>> >>>>> > Hello!!!! Hello!!!! >>>>> I thought it was going to be a Secular Free Kashmir. > This sounds >>>>> suspiciously like an Islamic Free Kashmir. >>>>> >>>>> > Interesting prospect : Free Kashmir ..... no Non-Muslims ..... no >>>>> > Liquor >>>>> >>>>> Maybe it is the "Tourism Policy" >>>>> >>>>> ............. > aalok aima >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > _________________________________________ >>>>> reader-list: an open > discussion list on media and the city. >>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>> > subscribe in the subject header. >>>>> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>> List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>> >>>> >>>> > Shuddhabrata Sengupta >>>> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >>>> Raqs Media > Collective >>>> shuddha at sarai.net >>>> www.sarai.net >>>> > www.raqsmediacollective.net >>>> >>>> >>>> > _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion > list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> subscribe in the > subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> >>> >>> > _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion > list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe >>> in the > subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> > http://indersalim.livejournal.com >> > _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion > list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the > subject header. >> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion > list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send > an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject > header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________ > ________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To > unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rama.sangye at gmail.com Sun Oct 24 12:15:11 2010 From: rama.sangye at gmail.com (V Ramaswamy) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 12:15:11 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Bhooka Nanga Hindustan Message-ID: Dear Friends The reference to Bhooka Nanga Hindustan in the reports and discussion on the Azadi convention in Delhi - I have been trying to see and feel the many resonances and ramificiations of this. Of course Hindustan is Bhooka Nanga. So where does any Hindustani stand? I have also been reminded of the events in Iran, 30 odd years ago, with the return of Ayatollah Khomeni. It is for Kashmiris to decide what kind of future they want, how to secure and safeguard their freedoms, and have the opportunities for advancement. The Indian state keeps saying Kashmir is an integral part of India. The political parties all seem to function on the assumption that the people of India will not accept anything other than this, and accuse one another of being "soft". So it seems a protracted struggle and battle is inevitable, with perpetual and mounting bloodshed. Maybe if the people of India felt that Kashmiris should have the right to self determination, then the political parties would be bound to follow the people's verdict. My hunch is that if a hyothetical survey was undertaken in India, the vast majority would be indifferent / igorant, followed by a vocal minority that said Kashmir had be in India, and a not insignificant proprotion saying Kashmiris have the right to self-determination. So if we want to stop the bloodshed in Kashmir - and the destruction of public resources in securing Kashmir for India - then educating the Indian public on the Kashmiris' right to self-determination, and the need for peace and development in Kashmir and India seems the most effective path. That would also remove what the state of Pakistan has consistently said is the single issue between India and Pakistan. Sincerely V Ramaswamy Calcutta From pheeta.ram at gmail.com Sun Oct 24 12:42:47 2010 From: pheeta.ram at gmail.com (Pheeta Ram) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 12:42:47 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Geelani announced one Article of the Constitutionof Free Kashmir - its "Liquor Policy" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Sonia Pheeta Ram is not such a bad name that it should grate on your ears in such a jarring manner as to seem un-real. Its a different matter that the notes of the music i like are in contrapuntal disagreement with the notes of your favorite melodies. They needn't match, they won't and they shouldn't! Now, something about your harangue about Revolutions: "But there are lessons to be learned in history." I agree. And once you have learnt your lessons, you are given an A+ and you automatically graduate to the next level. Hip! Hip! Hurrah! How i wish things were so simple, straightforward and clear in a 'reovlution'. Chaos, confusion and hooliganism under many names rules the roost during 'revolutions'. Many things happen that shouldn't. The 'public property' shouldn't get damaged and destroyed and yet it do. Young careers shouldn't get ruined and yet they do. People must not sleep on empty stomachs and yet they have to under curfew. People shouldn't get killed and yet they do. Ab kya karen? Aazaadi ka mol chukaana padega. Bastille down>>monarchy gone>>anarchy>>dictatorship>>war>>monarchy again>>dictatorship again>>more wars>>two short-lived republics and "It took 100 years before France settled down to being a republic-- so much for the speed and efficacy of revolutions," you write. And who told you dear Sonia that 'revolutions' happen over night and end when a country "settles down to being a republic"? Who was it who said "Boy, its a long revolution!" ? The template shall run long, through endless cycles and spirals...who knows how long... But those who are for Revolution shall keep working for it through confusions, through chaos, through anarchy... What matters is that you are clear on which side you are; other things come afterwards. Kashmiris need first to be clear about what they want. And let me tell you, people who can't throw a stone in the name of freedom, can't sleep empty stomach, can't bear the chaos and confusion of this onward march towards mere political freedom don't deserve it! Revolution is another country Sonia ji. Now, let us come to the long piece that you have taken the trouble to post again on the Sarai List. I t-read each and every line and lo and behold! it turns out to be a PP(propaganda piece)! I pity the guy who wrote it. This guy is not for the freedom of Kashmiri people, not to speak of revolution. He hasn't been able to make up his mind yet. I am pretty sure. However, the narration did one thing for me: it reminded me of India's march towards political freedom. There were so many factions, violent, non-violent, moderate, militant; so many things were going on simultaneously. So lets not believe that Gandhi marched India towards political freedom and all the people followed him in a single file. Many a bitter struggle were fought over leadership of Congress, there were times when there seemed no leader in charge, and anarchy ruled the hydra-headed freedom movement if there was (only) one. And then the happening of many things simultaneously, the pressure for which was building all along, resulted in India's political freedom. India gained its independence and yet lost its revolution which hadn't even properly begun. The idea of independence is the most potent tool in the hands of ruling class to put the idea of revolution to sleep. The people are made to believe that 'independence' and 'revolution' are coterminus and the hegemony of elites begins. It takes some time and effort before the people rise up from this amnesiac sleep in revolt. Revolutions are inbuilt in the social fabric, its like nature: floods and storms and cyclones, their algorithms are hardwired into nature's mother board. And yet, there is something in the nature of 'electron' - the basic agent of 'revolution' - its uncertainty, seeming anarchy, which dares remould the circuits of 'revolutions' should they be boobytrapped, viruses hardcoded . So the Revolution (R) is when r is raised to the power of infinity. And infinity doesn't take my breath away. Blessed [pardon the vocabulary] are the Kashmiri youth whose lives have got entangled in the cross-hair of revolution. Blessed are they who are born under a star in turmoil for they shall have their options clear-cut before them. Blessed are the youth who have a stone to throw for they shall find their lives worth living and dying for. If they think they deserve freedom they shall get it. I know i am with them, through chaos, through confusion, through leaderless anarchy. (BTW, anarchy is not such a bad thing. Its anarchy that keeps hopes alive.) We are with them in their struggle, and we know they are with us in our struggle. The message was loud and clear in the recently held meeting: OUR STRUGGLES ARE ONE! And in this regard it was a historic meeting. Kuch baaten bahut seedhi, saaf aur moti hoti hai, unke liye humain Kant, Hegel aur Marx nahin padhna padta. Its the oxy-moronic 'philosophy of the gross'. Humari aankhen isi liye bani hain aur microscope isi liye. Both have their uses. So while looking through the microscope we shouldn't forget that we have eyes too, and a mind, and to top it all, a heart that perpetually longs for freedom. Yours sincerely PHEETA RAM From indersalim at gmail.com Sun Oct 24 18:38:52 2010 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 18:38:52 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Geelani announced one Article of the Constitutionof Free Kashmir - its "Liquor Policy" In-Reply-To: <65EBC21086BB4302958257031F3C2ED9@tara> References: <655243.50391.qm@web112614.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <963D2A87-EB89-41A4-906B-649EC4B7FD08@sarai.net> <0CF11F1FC9D3475789B2BFA4AE9A8FAA@tara> <65EBC21086BB4302958257031F3C2ED9@tara> Message-ID: are not there dances which are based on war do they glorify wars? On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 1:35 AM, TaraPrakash wrote: > But dear Inder Salim ji. I think I read that statement and expressed my > skepticism. If Inder Salim ji says he does not support violence but > glorifies stone pelters on any forum to do with Kashmiri separatists, I will > have reason to be skeptical about his statement about nonviolence. > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Inder Salim" > To: "reader-list" > Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2010 3:52 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Geelani announced one Article of the > Constitutionof Free Kashmir - its "Liquor Policy" > > >> But dear Taraprakash ji >> Shudda concludes >> >> "By the way, none of this means that I agree with Mr. SAS Geelani;s >> vision of the future. I am merely stating the facts that I  know and >> witnessed." >> >> >> >> >> Inbox >> X >> >> cashmeeri >> Geelani announced one Article of the Constitution of Free Kashmir - its >> "Liqu... >> >> 2:38 PM (22 hours ago) >> >> Reply >> >> | >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> Well, on these grounds, Syed Ali Shah Geelani is more moderate than >> Mohandas ... >> >> 3:03 PM (22 hours ago) >> Shuddhabrata SenguptaLoading... >> 3:03 PM (22 hours ago) >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> to cashmeeri, Sarai >> >> show details 3:03 PM (22 hours ago) >> >> >> >> Well, on these grounds, Syed Ali Shah Geelani is more moderate than >> Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi, who advocated total prohibition, >> (regardless of whether one was or was not a believer in any religion) >> and was even against the drinking of tea. Does that mean that we think >> that his vision of 'Ram Rajya'  would be identical to what Aalok Aima >> considers to be an Islamic state? >> >> Incidentally, the state of Gujarat, has consistently imposed total >> prohibition in deference to M.K. Gandhi's ideas on prohibition for as >> long as it has existed as a state of the Indian Union. So, as per Mr. >> Aima's suggestion, would we now be prepared to admit that Mr. Modi's >> Gujarat (and the Gujarat of all his predecessors) is the closest we >> have come to having an 'islamic State' in India. Oh no, the closest we >> actually came to being an Islamic state in India was actually during >> Morarji Desai;s prime ministership, when some of the current champions >> of Hindutva were in power, when total prohibition was imposed on all >> of India. In fact we came even closer than the vision of SAS Geelani, >> which at least allows the 'non-believer' his or her daily tipple? >> Incidentally, Mr. Geelani went on to suggest that if a bottle of >> alchohl belongiing to a non believer was willingly or unwillingly >> damaged by a Muslim, then the state would have to compensate the >> non-believer for that damage. I haven;t quite heard of an Islamic >> state willing to pay people to drink alchohl (if their bottle has been >> damaged). He went on to quote an 'aayat' that said - "Muslims, do not >> insult even the idols (but) of the idol worshippers, for they will >> insult your God in return" and that the obligations of humanity are >> binding in our relations even with those we consider to be our >> enemies.  Interesting stuff, coming as it does from the man who is so >> offen held up as a figure of inflexible bigotry. >> >> By the way, none of this means that I agree with Mr. SAS Geelani;s >> vision of the future. I am merely stating the facts that I  know and >> witnessed. >> >> best >> >> Shuddha >> - Show quoted text - >> >> >> >> On 22-Oct-10, at 2:38 PM, cashmeeri wrote: >> >>   - Show quoted text - >> >>   Geelani announced one Article of the Constitution of Free Kashmir >> - its "Liquor Policy": >> >>   http://www.prokerala.com/news/articles/a176267.html >> >>   "The system of justice in an independent Jammu and Kashmir would >> be such that even liquor would not be banned for non-Muslims. It would >> be prohibited fo......r the Muslim majority but if minorities feel >> they want to have liquor they would be allowed to consume as their >> right," >> >>   Hello!!!! Hello!!!! >>   I thought it was going to be a Secular Free Kashmir. This sounds >> suspiciously like an Islamic Free Kashmir. >> >>   Interesting prospect : Free Kashmir ..... no Non-Muslims ..... no Liquor >> >>   Maybe it is the "Tourism Policy" >> >>   ............. aalok aima >> >> >> >>   _________________________________________ >>   reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>   Critiques & Collaborations >>   To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >>   To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>   List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >> Raqs Media Collective >> shuddha at sarai.net >> www.sarai.net >> www.raqsmediacollective.net >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> Reply >> >> Reply to all >> >> Forward >> >> >> >> Reply >> >> | >> TaraPrakash >> to Shuddhabrata, cashmeeri, Sarai >> >> show details 9:49 PM (15 hours ago) >> >> The point probably the mailer was making and you are missing is that >> the assumption is that SASG's "free" Kashmir will be primarily an >> Islamic state that will allow some unislamic things to happen. This is >> the same vision of Hindu Rashtra that Advani was selling to Indians >> when BJP was being seen as taking power away in India. >> >> That you don't necessarily agree with SASG makes no freaking sense to >> me especially when you have unequivocally blatantly unskeptically >> defended and justified SASG on this forum. By becoming a SASG stooge >> you have joined the ranks of RSS. By putting SASG and MK Gandhi in the >> same sentence you killed the embodiment of nonviolence once more, and >> joined RSS ranks in more than one way. >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" >> >> To: "cashmeeri" >> Cc: "Sarai" >> Sent: Friday, October 22, 2010 5:33 AM >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Geelani announced one Article of the >> Constitutionof Free Kashmir - its "Liquor Policy" >> - Show quoted text - >> >> >> >> >> >>   Well, on these grounds, Syed Ali Shah Geelani is more moderate >> than Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi, who advocated total prohibition, >> (regardless of whether one was or was not a believer in any religion) >> and was even against the drinking of tea. Does that mean that we >> think that his vision of 'Ram Rajya'  would be identical to what >> Aalok Aima considers to be an Islamic state? >> >>   Incidentally, the state of Gujarat, has consistently imposed total >> prohibition in deference to M.K. Gandhi's ideas on prohibition for as >> long as it has existed as a state of the Indian Union. So, as per Mr. >> Aima's suggestion, would we now be prepared to admit that Mr. Modi's >> Gujarat (and the Gujarat of all his predecessors) is the closest we >> have come to having an 'islamic State' in India. Oh no, the closest >> we actually came to being an Islamic state in India was actually >> during Morarji Desai;s prime ministership, when some of the current >> champions of Hindutva were in power, when total prohibition was >> imposed on all of India. In fact we came even closer than the vision >> of SAS Geelani, which at least allows the 'non-believer' his or her >> daily tipple? Incidentally, Mr. Geelani went on to suggest that if a >> bottle of alchohl belongiing to a non believer was willingly or >> unwillingly damaged by a Muslim, then the state would have to >> compensate the non-believer for that damage. I haven;t quite heard of >> an Islamic state willing to pay people to drink alchohl (if their >> bottle has been damaged). He went on to quote an 'aayat' that said - >> "Muslims, do not insult even the idols (but) of the idol worshippers, >> for they will insult your God in return" and that the obligations of >> humanity are binding in our relations even with those we consider to >> be our enemies.  Interesting stuff, coming as it does from the man >> who is so offen held up as a figure of inflexible bigotry. >> >>   By the way, none of this means that I agree with Mr. SAS Geelani;s >> vision of the future. I am merely stating the facts that I  know and >> witnessed. >> >>   best >> >>   Shuddha >> >> >>   On 22-Oct-10, at 2:38 PM, cashmeeri wrote: >> >> >>       Geelani announced one Article of the Constitution of Free >> Kashmir -  its "Liquor Policy": >> >>       http://www.prokerala.com/news/articles/a176267.html >> >>       "The system of justice in an independent Jammu and Kashmir >> would be  such that even liquor would not be banned for non-Muslims. >> It would  be prohibited fo......r the Muslim majority but if >> minorities feel  they want to have liquor they would be allowed to >> consume as their  right," >> >>       Hello!!!! Hello!!!! >>       I thought it was going to be a Secular Free Kashmir. This >> sounds suspiciously like an Islamic Free Kashmir. >> >>       Interesting prospect : Free Kashmir ..... no Non-Muslims ..... >> no  Liquor >> >>       Maybe it is the "Tourism Policy" >> >>       ............. aalok aima >> >> >> >>       _________________________________________ >>       reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>       Critiques & Collaborations >>       To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >> with subscribe in the subject header. >>       To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>       List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >>   Shuddhabrata Sengupta >>   The Sarai Programme at CSDS >>   Raqs Media Collective >>   shuddha at sarai.net >>   www.sarai.net >>   www.raqsmediacollective.net >> >> >>   _________________________________________ >>   reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>   Critiques & Collaborations >>   To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >>   To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>   List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> Reply >> >> Reply to all >> >> Forward >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 9:49 PM, TaraPrakash >> wrote: >>> >>> The point probably the mailer was making and you are missing is that the >>> assumption is that SASG's "free" Kashmir will be primarily an Islamic >>> state >>> that will allow some unislamic things to happen. This is the same vision >>> of >>> Hindu Rashtra that Advani was selling to Indians when BJP was being seen >>> as >>> taking power away in India. >>> >>> That you don't necessarily agree with SASG makes no freaking sense to me >>> especially when you have unequivocally blatantly unskeptically defended >>> and >>> justified SASG on this forum. By becoming a SASG stooge you have joined >>> the >>> ranks of RSS. By putting SASG and MK Gandhi in the same sentence you >>> killed >>> the embodiment of nonviolence once more, and joined RSS ranks in more >>> than >>> one way. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" >>> >>> To: "cashmeeri" >>> Cc: "Sarai" >>> Sent: Friday, October 22, 2010 5:33 AM >>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Geelani announced one Article of the >>> Constitutionof Free Kashmir - its "Liquor Policy" >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Well, on these grounds, Syed Ali Shah Geelani is more moderate than >>>> Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi, who advocated total prohibition, (regardless >>>> of >>>> whether one was or was not a believer in any religion) and was even >>>> against >>>> the drinking of tea. Does that mean that we think that his vision of >>>> 'Ram >>>> Rajya' would be identical to what Aalok Aima considers to be an Islamic >>>> state? >>>> >>>> Incidentally, the state of Gujarat, has consistently imposed total >>>> prohibition in deference to M.K. Gandhi's ideas on prohibition for as >>>> long >>>> as it has existed as a state of the Indian Union. So, as per Mr. Aima's >>>> suggestion, would we now be prepared to admit that Mr. Modi's Gujarat >>>> (and >>>> the Gujarat of all his predecessors) is the closest we have come to >>>> having >>>> an 'islamic State' in India. Oh no, the closest we actually came to >>>> being >>>> an Islamic state in India was actually during Morarji Desai;s prime >>>> ministership, when some of the current champions of Hindutva were in >>>> power, >>>> when total prohibition was imposed on all of India. In fact we came even >>>> closer than the vision of SAS Geelani, which at least allows the >>>> 'non-believer' his or her daily tipple? Incidentally, Mr. Geelani went >>>> on >>>> to suggest that if a bottle of alchohl belongiing to a non believer was >>>> willingly or unwillingly damaged by a Muslim, then the state would have >>>> to >>>> compensate the non-believer for that damage. I haven;t quite heard of an >>>> Islamic state willing to pay people to drink alchohl (if their bottle >>>> has >>>> been damaged). He went on to quote an 'aayat' that said - "Muslims, do >>>> not >>>> insult even the idols (but) of the idol worshippers, for they will >>>> insult >>>> your God in return" and that the obligations of humanity are binding in >>>> our >>>> relations even with those we consider to be our enemies. Interesting >>>> stuff, coming as it does from the man who is so offen held up as a >>>> figure >>>> of inflexible bigotry. >>>> >>>> By the way, none of this means that I agree with Mr. SAS Geelani;s >>>> vision >>>> of the future. I am merely stating the facts that I know and witnessed. >>>> >>>> best >>>> >>>> Shuddha >>>> >>>> >>>> On 22-Oct-10, at 2:38 PM, cashmeeri wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Geelani announced one Article of the Constitution of Free Kashmir - its >>>>> "Liquor Policy": >>>>> >>>>> http://www.prokerala.com/news/articles/a176267.html >>>>> >>>>> "The system of justice in an independent Jammu and Kashmir would be >>>>> such >>>>> that even liquor would not be banned for non-Muslims. It would be >>>>> prohibited fo......r the Muslim majority but if minorities feel they >>>>> want >>>>> to have liquor they would be allowed to consume as their right," >>>>> >>>>> Hello!!!! Hello!!!! >>>>> I thought it was going to be a Secular Free Kashmir. This sounds >>>>> suspiciously like an Islamic Free Kashmir. >>>>> >>>>> Interesting prospect : Free Kashmir ..... no Non-Muslims ..... no >>>>> Liquor >>>>> >>>>> Maybe it is the "Tourism Policy" >>>>> >>>>> ............. aalok aima >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> >>>> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >>>> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >>>> Raqs Media Collective >>>> shuddha at sarai.net >>>> www.sarai.net >>>> www.raqsmediacollective.net >>>> >>>> >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe >>> in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From shuddha at sarai.net Sun Oct 24 19:53:11 2010 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 19:53:11 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?iso-8859-1?q?Azadi=3A_The_Only_Way_=AD_Report_fro?= =?iso-8859-1?q?m_a_Turbulent_Few_Hours_in_Delhi?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <396803BD-1817-401A-A79C-EBD17F7E1AF5@sarai.net> Dear Sonia, I agree with you on some points. I agree that the South Asian disease of 'let us forget the past' is not something that I respect. I think that those who were responsible for the secterian killings of the 89-90 period and after in Kashmir should be held accountable for their actions, regardless of whether they were acting on the presumed orders of the then/now Islamist SAS Geelani or the secularist Yasin Malik or of the state. I have no hesitation in saying this because I hold that the same process should be applied for those officers and politicians who orchestrated violence and mass killings on behalf of the Indian state in Kashmir. I have no objection at all, if Jagmohan, N.N Vohra, senior Army, paramilitary and intelligence officers who were in command in J&K, Farouq Abdullah, Mufti Muhammad Syed, SAS Geelani, Syed Salahuddin and Yasin Malik were all to be summoned to be examined by an independent non-partisan international tribunal to account for their actions and decisions in the larger interests of truth, justice, and possibly, a measure of reconciliation. Were a process able to account for the guilt of all these gentlemen and their underlings, and every prime minister and home minister of the Republic of India, and every governor and chief minister of the state of Jammu and Kashmir, and their counterparts in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, none would be more pleased than I. This could be done on the model of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission in South Africa, or even, if I am not mistaken on the lines of similar processes in Northern Ireland. You are still missing the point when you misunderstand what I am saying when I say that I am willing to endorse SAS Geelani's apparent 'change of heart'. I am not endorsing anything, I am recognizing something. And I am not unhappy in making that recognition. This does not require me to 'endow SAS Geelani or anyone else with my trust or my consent. Let us say, for arguments sake, that I am no less cynical than you are about the intentions of a politician as polished in the art of realpolitik as SAS Geelani (he wasnt an MLA twice over, at least once, if I am not mistaken as part of a political formation, supported by the worthies of the then Janata Party which would then have included Shri L.K. Advani, for nothing).But then, my cynicism does not stop at him. It includes Yasin Malik and Sajjad Lone and the Mirwaiz and every single Indian politician who has tried to play in Kashmir's troubled waters. Let us assume, as I am willing to do, that they ALL have blood on their hands, and that at the same time that they have ALL been the victims of the circumstances that shaped them. My question is, what do we do next. I think that this means that the people 'learn' to USE them, to compel them to come to a degree of moderation in action, and a greater, more imaginative radicalism in terms of conceptions. That is why, the current situation in Kashmir, where the 'Leaders' are being 'Led' by people is interesting to me. I find it POSITIVE that they have to do flip-flops so often, from Hartal-to-No Hartal- to Hartal again. This shows that they are NOT running the street. Things are unpredictable. The change in the 'temperature' of SAS Geelani's statements may be as much due to the fact that he is no longer in a position to call all the shots. Therefore, he has less to lose by 'changing' his tenor. There is a way in which the language of politics has changed, and it has changed because of the way in which people are communicating on all sorts of fora. Though they may, out of affection, still say that only Geelani will do the Tarjumani, the truth is, everyone is doing their own Tarjumani now. and that is the hardest nut for the Government of India to crack. As an anarchist, I find this situation, of the actual, concrete, refusal of 'representational forms of politics' . however ephemeral it might be at present, quite delightful. SO much so, that a 'theatre' of leadership continues, but actuality presumes a totally different language of politics. I find this a fertile situation, one latent with possibilities, for everyone. As for your other point, about how close we all were to the beginnings of the long road towards a solution with Musharraf's four point formula - I agree with you. But, then, it was the Government of India that scuttled that possibility. If the government of India had acted then, on what was on offer, perhaps things would not have come to the situation where they are at present. Too much has gone wrong since then. I am not a nationalist of any sort, and to me, ALL nation states, and all nation states in waiting, are ultimately the actors of the tragedies of their own making and choosing, So, basically, I am not for the moment saying and have never said that an independent Kashmir will be in any way a qualitative improvement (in terms of a state form) than an occupied Kashmir, but, It may at least lead to the withdrawal of the reality of a brutal occupation. For me, whatever makes that possible, I am prepared to accept. There were, and remain many possibilities that span the spectrum from where the situation is at present to Indpendence or accession to Pakistan. But thinking about those possibilities require all Indians to stop thinking only out of the Indian nationalist box. You know very well, that many different kinds of arrangement could have been explored. including maximum autonomy under the aegis of a joint India-Pakistan guarantee, which is what I understand the Musharraf formula to have been, But the bottom line is, whatever is worked out has to be acceptable to the popular will, hence a plebiscite with many options on offer, and the freedom to campaign for the many options in an atomsphere free of coercion. Realistically speaking, I do not think that the Government of India has the imagination any longer to try and think out of the box. If it can, that would be great. But, going by the ostrich like attitude of the Government in the face of the obvious alienation of the Kashmiri people, I very much doubt it. If they had that intelligence, they could have stopped the killings by the security forces a long time ago. Therefore, the only remaining possibility for ending the occupation seems to me to be independence for Kashmir, in the short term, under the custodianship of the United Nations, like happened in Kosovo.Of course, I strongly assert that the political road to this must be through non-violent means, through mass political participation, of as many different sections of the population as possible. It will be painful, for many Indians to accept, but in the long term, and in the absence of any other imaginative solutions thought through by the Indian political elites (that chance has come, and sadly, gone) it will be in the best interests of the people of India. Of course, the challenge for the people of Kashmir would be to think through a vision of independence that does not have them switch slavery to Indian occupation to slavery to the Pakistani militarist elite. The challenge would be to come up with proposals for a demilitarized, non- aggressive Kashmir that can preserve its cultural and social openness and liberality, that can take back displaced minorities, and can offer them genuine, not token safety and security. That is the hard work that imaginative politics will have to undertake in Kashmir. And we should never stop expecting and demanding that from all our Kashmiri friends. I never, ever cease doing so. In the long term, this fact, an Independent Kashmir, could actually be the cornerstone of a broad South Asian Union (modelled on the EU) which could bring the different nationalities (there may be many by then) of South Asia under an arrangement of a free trade zone, a visa free zone, a customs and tarrifs union, a charter on shared ecological concerns, and comprehensive demilitarization. An independent Kashmir may be the first step in that direction. Of course this need not happen. Things could get worse if Kashmir separates. I am well aware and cognizant of that possibility. But, at least, once the dust and din settles, in our lifetime, there is a likelihood that once everyone has climbed off their nationalist high horses, things might be worked out, amicably and reasonably between all the stake holders of a future free association of South Asian States and Territories. That, I think is the only guarantee for peace in our region. I know for certain that an India and Pakistan that continue to hold on to their respective fragments of Jammu and Kashmir, and an India that enforces that occupation by military force cannot contribute to peace in the region. That is why, I think that freedom for Kashmir, and also, incidentally for Tibet, is key to long term peace and stability in Asia, because both these developments would reduce the necessity of the big poweres of tomorrow - China and India and to a lesser extent - Pakistan from being aggressive nuclear powered rivals, and would perhaps, perhaps, open out the true possibility of what a worthwhile Asian Century really ought to be like. Otherwise, I am afraid that we will replay the disasters of the European history of the Twentieth Century, from the First World War onwards, on the soil of Twenty First Century Asia. I hope i have made myself clear best, Shuddha On 23-Oct-10, at 7:45 PM, SJabbar wrote: > Sorry for cross-posting but I sent this message out in the morning > as a > response to Shuddha¹s 2nd post but received an automated email > saying my > post had to be reviewed by the moderator. Since I haven¹t received a > response (Monica??!) I assume it was not approved or got lost in > the vast > belly of the Sarai computer! > ------------------------------------- > > > Shuddha, let us take your arguments and apply them to the other > side. Modi > belongs to a political party that was in power and he was at the > helm when > the 2002 Gujarat carnage took place. He may not have explicitly > directed it > but he certainly presided over the violence. What Modi is like as > a person, > whether he is gentle, cultured, cries at the funeral of his friends > or his > rivals are of no concern to me (It is well known that Goebbels was a > cultured man and had a refined taste in music and the arts and of > course > Jinnah ate ham sandwiches). What matters to me is that the man > presided over > the worst kind of violence and has refused to, till date, condemn it > unambiguously. Instead he and his party continue to cite the economic > progress of Muslims in Gujarat to counter it. The subtext of this‹ > and this > is a South Asian disease‹ is let us forget the past, galtiyan dono > taraf se > huin hain (³action-reaction²), and let us move on. Whether it is the > various political parties in India who have incited, controlled and > presided > over the worst communal or sectarian violence from the 1930¹s to > the present > day, or the Pakistani army role in the mass rapes of Bangladesh or > the Sri > Lankan army¹s role against Tamil civilians, every political party > in these > countries seem to be inflicted by the same disease. > Having said that, I believe it is the role of civil society to be > vigilant, > to be rigorous, to not succumb to the same logic. > > I know that you have been critical of fundamentalist politics in > this forum > and others, whether it is Hindutva or Islamist and that is why it > surprised > me to read your post on the LTG event. You say ³You may be right > when you > say that SAS Geelani may be saying one thing in Delhi and another in > Srinagar. I am not here to judge the sincerity, or lack of, or > ambiguity, > of these statements.² Why are you not here to judge the sincerity > or lack > thereof of these statements? Surely, one is always judging political > parties when they claim one or another thing? How does one align > oneself > politically if one goes simply by manifestos and not by actions? > Judging > and evaluating is a constant process. Mamta Bannerjee may have > been one > thing as a member of the opposition but how will she be when she > comes to > power? One reads her statements, one watches carefully her actions > following her statements. If they don¹t gel, we believe her to be > insincere. > > You write: ³I am amazed that this recognition is not getting the > space I > think it deserves, simply as a NEWS story. ³ Do you remember Atal > Behari > Vajpayee shed tears after the demolition of the Babri Masjid and > Advani > described it as ³the saddest day of his life.² Should these > isolated moments > and statements be highlighted and privileged as representing the 2 > men¹s > position on the Babri Masjid or should one judge them over a longer > period > of time, weighing their statements and their actions? > > As for Mr. Geelani and evaluating his actions, do you believe a > responsible > leader ought to lead from the front or give calls to his followers > to engage > in actions that will cause injury or even death from the safety of > his home? > Mr. Geelani is fully aware that in any part of this planet if you pelt > stones at a man with a gun, there is a fair chance that the man > with the gun > is going to retaliate. When he was released from jail he made a fine > statement calling for the end of the hartaal calendar, saying that > this was > not the way forward, that these protests could not be sustained, > that life > could not come to a standstill (btw, the Sopore fruit mandi, his > constituency, continued to function through this entire period hartaal > calendar or not). These were wise words from a man who has been in > politics > for years. Wise words or the thinking of the ISI, I¹m not sure > because the > words were echoed by Syed Salahuddin. What follows is interesting: > Salahuddin¹s effigy is burnt and a rumour is floated that Mr. > Geelani is > selling out to Omar Abdullah. Does Mr. Geelani stand by his > words? Does he > do what Gandhi does after Chauri Chaura? No, of course not. He > does a > total U-turn and starts competing with Masrat Alam on the calendars, > subjecting the people of the valley to more misery. What do ordinary > Kashmiris feel about the continuation of this absurd form of > protest where > they and not the Government of India suffer? You may find the > answer in the > fact that there was not a single protest when Masrat Alam was > arrested. > > Again Mr. Geelani saying he Œpersonally¹ favours the accession to > Pakistan > but will Œabide by¹ what the people of J&K want is neither here nor > there. > What you see as a maturing position may be read as an opportunistic > one > until such time as it is tested. As I have already shown in my > last post > Mr. Geelani, his political party and his ideology have since the > mid-90¹s > shown no such respectful accommodation of the political views of > others. In > fact any divergence from this view has been silenced by the > bullet. If this > is someone¹s history‹ and as much as I should wish it otherwise-- > it is > very, very difficult for me to suspend my cynicism and turn > enthusiastic > cartwheels on the basis of one speech to a select audience in New > Delhi. > > With reference to your point about borders: The GoI acknowledges that > Kashmir is an ³issue² between India and Pakistan. As I have > mentioned in my > first post, it objects to the word ³dispute² as it internationalizes > Kashmir, ignores the Simla Agreement and takes it out of the domain of > bilateral talks back to the UN. If you want my personal opinion on > this > (and I have argued on this list in the past), I agree with this > stand. I > see the UN as a forum where, sadly, world powers have always > manipulated > nations and it certainly does not have the moral standing after > Iraq and > Afghanistan to really mediate anywhere in the world. India and > Pakistan > need to, and can settle the issue taking into account the wishes of > all the > people of J&K as it stood in 1947. As I have argued in the past > and as > Gen.Musharraf recently said on an NDTV interview that India and > Pakistan > were very close to drafting an agreement based on his 4-point formula. > Interestingly, various interpretations of this 4-point formula were > thrown > up by all shades of political parties but there was a broad > consensus on > this whether from the mainstream groups or the separatists. The > only leader > that rejected this was Mr. Geelani who insisted that the Kashmir > ³dispute² > be solved on the UN Resolutions of 1948! > > As for borders themselves: what is Europe today but a borderless > continent? > You critique the idea of the nation-state and yet you want to re- > invent the > wheel by supporting yet another nation-state in independent > Kashmir. Why, > when a 21st c. solution in the 4-point formula, similar to the form > and > content of the EU, could be in the making? > > Best wishes, > Sonia > > > > On 22/10/10 8:10 PM, "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" > wrote: > >> Dear Sonia, (don't worry Pawan, its a lot less than '3000 lines') >> >> I said - " I do not agree with much of what Geelani Saheb represents >> politically, or ideologically, but I have no hesitation in saying >> that what he >> said yesterday, was surprising for its gentleness, for its >> consideration, for >> its moderation, even for its liberality and open heartedness." >> >> What part of this sentence seems to suggest that I am 'aligning' >> with SAS >> Geelani. The 'I do not agree with much' does not seem to indicate >> alignment, >> or endorsement to me. The rest of the statement is a statement of >> fact. Were >> SAS Geelani to have said words that were inflammatory yesterday, I >> would not >> have hesitated to said that he had. Allow me to elaborate by way >> of an example >> - I have never been in agreement with the political philosophy of >> M.K.Gandhi, >> but I never make the mistake of saying that my disagreement with >> Gandhi (my >> refusal to endorse Gandhian ideology and what it means >> politically) amounts to >> my failure to recognize Gandhi's gentleness, his consideration, his >> moderation, his liberality and its open heartedness. >> >> I have been strongly critical Islamist politics, including on >> this forum, >> whenever I have considered it necessary to do so. That is one >> thing, and it is >> where I would differ from SAS Geelani, explicitly, categorically, >> unless he >> makes a statement, like the Mirwaiz did recently, abjuring an >> 'Islamist future >> for Kashmir'. But to say that SAS Geelani has never expressed >> regret for the >> violence that rocked even the pro-Azadi camp from within is >> specious. Kashmiri >> polticians of all hues routinely issue condemnations of incidents of >> terrorism, and targetted assasinations. Geelani, to my knowledge, >> has not been >> any exception. Eyewitnesses speak of seeing him weeping at Abdul >> Ghani Lone's >> funeral. I do not know, nor do I care, whether these tears were >> genuine. All I >> am saying is that if the man has not said that he celebrates the >> assasins of >> the elder Mirwaiz, or Abdul Ghani Lone, or the attacks on Dr. >> Shameema that >> you mention, then, it is unfair to accuse him of 'Not Saying' the >> 'not >> saying'. He condemns assasinations. He does not celebrate the >> assasin. This >> means that he cannot be accused of being the source of the >> assasination, >> unless other concrete evidence is brought to bear upon the case. >> >> You may be right when you say that SAS Geelani may be saying one >> thing in >> Delhi and another in Srinagar. I am not here to judge the >> sincerity, or lack >> of, or ambiguity, of these statements. I think politically, the >> significant >> thing is that whatever he may have said in the past, SAS Geelani, >> HAS to speak >> a language today that is not secterian. He may have done so in the >> past. Let >> us remember that he was an elected member of the J&K assembly for >> more than >> one term in the past, and that means he had to swear fealty of >> some sort to >> the Indian constitution. Judging by this, we should be able to >> evaluate his >> 'Islamist' commitments in the light of his sometime loyalty to an >> apparently >> secular constitution. If the sake of argument, we say that we >> should take >> seriously what came 'after' as representing the 'maturing' of his >> position, >> then, if his avowedly 'secterian' / Islamist / Pro-Pakistan phase >> came after >> his phase as an MLA of the J&K assembly, then, so too has this >> 'current' phase >> come 'after' his secterian posturing. I am not the one who needs >> to split >> these hairs, but clearly, if some emphasis is bieng given to >> chronology as a >> way of attributing the man's politics to the man's biography, then >> let's stay >> consistent, and say, that if the current SAS Geelani is saying >> things that >> don't seem to require the automatic assumption of an Isamic state >> (which is >> what we would expect from the 'old' Geelani, then, we have every >> reason to >> take it as seriously as when he made his decision to abandon >> 'mainstream' >> electoral politics in Jammu and Kashmir for the hardline fringe. >> >> Indeed, I would go so far as to say that as far as we are >> concerned, we should >> assume, and hold him, and his followers, responsible to the >> Œevolution¹ of >> their statements, as they occur. If he goes back on the broad, >> liberal nature >> of a vision for Azad kashmir (which, incidentally, among other >> things, >> included the somewhat whimsical detail of a provision of >> compensation for >> damages were a believing Muslim to damage a bottle of alchohl of a >> non-believer), then, we should hold him responsible for that >> regression. He >> made a speech that was refreshingly free of Islamist rhetoric >> yesterday, that >> spoke in the broad terms of 'Insaaniyat' - Humanity. If Atal >> Behari Vajpayee >> can be appreciated, as indeed he should have been, for speaking in >> terms of >> 'Insaaniyat' when it came to thinking about the solution to the >> question of >> Jammu and Kashmir, why could the mainstream media not pick up the >> fact that at >> least in stated terms, SAS Geelani was making as major a move, by >> invoking >> 'Insaaniyat' over secterian considerations, exactly as Vajpayee >> had done. >> Recognizing this does not require us to align with, or endorse, >> either SAS >> Geelani, or Atal Behari Vajpayee, it simply requires us to >> register a fact >> that a major move is in process. That politics is being >> transformed, even as >> we speak. I am amazed that this recognition is being painted as >> 'alignment, or >> endorsement'. I am amazed that this recognition is not getting the >> space I >> think it deserves, simply as a NEWS story. SAS Geelani says he >> wishes India to >> be a strong country, a regional power, that he supports (in >> principle) a >> future permanent place for India on the United Natons Security >> Council, once >> Kashmir is liberated - in other words, he is saying, let us go, >> and we will >> stand with you, dont you think this is BIG news. That is what I >> was trying to >> talk about. Trying to talk about does not make me a camp follower >> of SAS >> Geelani or any other politician, in India, Kashmir, or elsewhere. >> >> My sense is, the movement for Azadi in Kashmir has gone beyond the >> persona of >> SAS Geelani, and while he is universally respected for his >> integrity and >> incorruptability, his word is by no means, Œlaw¹. He, and other >> leaders like >> him, are being Œled¹ as much as they are Œleading¹ the people they >> claim to >> represent. Part of this process means giving up the secterian >> rhetoric that >> people in Kashmir genuinely feel alienated by. We should welcome this >> development. >> >> Now, I come to the views that he holds regarding independence and >> merger with >> Pakistan. He has said, including in his recent interview with >> Seema Mustafa >> that he PERSONALLY prefers accession to Pakistan, but that he is >> willing to >> abide by whatever the people of Jammu and Kashmir decide. I do not >> think that >> the people of Jammu and Kashmir have a future with Pakistan.So, I >> disagree >> with SAS Geelani's personal view. I strongly argue for a >> demilitarized, >> independent, secular Jammu and Kashmir. That makes me someone who >> does not >> endorse SAS Geelani's position. Let's look at thigns this way, had >> this been >> 1935, I would probably have not been in agreement with M.K. >> Gandhi's vision of >> what he thought the future of South Asia and India ought to be. >> But that does >> not mean that I would dismiss Gandhi as irrelevant, or someone to >> be mocked >> and reviled. I would engage with him politicially, as many >> currents in India >> at that time did. They were not uncritical of Gandhi (from the >> left and the >> right) but they knew that Gandhi's voice had a certain resonance. >> I think that >> the attitude that people have towards SAS Geelani is not >> dissimilar. They may >> not agree with him on many counts, and most Kashmiris that I know >> personally >> would fit that description. But none would want to dismiss or >> demonize him. >> Primarily because of his unwillingness to be an occasional pawn in >> the hands >> of the occupation. >> >> I have yet to come across an Indian politician who is willing to >> say, on the >> record, that he PERSONALLY prefers that Jammu and Kashmir stay >> with India, but >> will respect whatever the people of Jammu and Kashmir decide in a >> free and >> fair plebiscite. If that were to be the case, then we would get >> much further >> than where we are today in Kashmir. I have no quarrel with those >> who want >> Kashmir to stay in India. Theirs is a point of view. It needs to >> be freely >> heard, freely debated, and if is convincing to the people of Jammu >> and >> Kashmir, best of luck to those who carry the day. What I am >> against is >> maintaining Jammu and Kashmir as parts of the Indian Union by >> force. By >> violence. By occupation. >> >> Finally, I come to the five points, and whether or not, sticking >> to the point >> about Kashmir being disputed is an obstacle. Lets face facts. >> Kashmir is a >> dispute. Every single map of the world that is not printed in >> India shows it, >> visually, as a disputed territory. That is why the Government of >> India has to >> put its silly ink stamp on atlases. That is why there is a United >> Nations >> Observer group in Delhi, Islamabad and Srinagar. United Nations >> observers are >> present, in the same way, in say Cyprus (another dispute) Israel / >> Palestine, >> another dispute. What is the big deal in saying, yes, it is a >> dispute. Will >> India disappear if the public secret is admitted to? As far as I >> am concerned >> borders, and sovereignty, are less important than the lives of >> people. If >> discussing a border, and what it means, can be a method to save >> lives, then >> refusing to do so, is a crime. The Government of India can offer >> to 'discuss' >> - sovereignty over those areas of the India-Tibet border that were >> taken by >> force majeure by British Imperial power, but it will sacrifice the >> lives of >> hundreds of thousands of people in order to keep the fetish of the >> Indian >> Union's soveriegnty and integrity alive in the case of Jammu and >> Kashmir. >> This policy seems to me to be totally criminal and misguided. >> >> Borders are made by human beings, and can be changed by human >> beings. The >> geographical expression of the Union of India is not divinely >> ordained. >> Sensible people all over the world, understand that maps can >> change, and that >> they do change. We hope that the map of China can someday be drawn >> in Chinese >> school text books without engulfing Tibet. If that can be a >> reasonable desire, >> and not be seen as an 'obstruction', why should a similar desire >> be seen as an >> obstruction in the case of India and Jammu and Kashmir. Arnab Goswami >> repeatedly used the word 'splittist' yestyerday to refer to all >> those who were >> speaking at the meeting at the LTG yesterday. A word that is used >> by the >> Chinese government and the Chinese Communist Party whenever it >> refers to the >> Dalai Lama and the movement for a free Tibet. Are we (our >> government, sections >> of our media) aping the Chinese government and the behemoth of the >> Chinese >> Communist Party in aligning and endorsing ourselves with the >> fetish of a man >> made fiction of sovereignty. I should hope that we can do better >> than that. >> >> best regards, >> >> Shuddha >> >> >> >> >> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From taraprakash at gmail.com Sun Oct 24 20:22:15 2010 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 10:52:15 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Wikileaks and the End of America! References: Message-ID: <19A24F3AAB7F4FF182DC8093AA039D60@tara> I thought we all knew about American excesses and human right violation cases. What current leaks by Wiki leaks has drawn attention to is the Iraqis maltreating and torturing other Iraqis. There were some other leaks that showed how some Pakistani troops tortured prisoners. US has stopped funding those platoons found involved in torture. It's easy to blame it all on America but Taliban, insurgents in Pakistan, insurgents in Iraq are also have to share blame in decimation. What do you say of the conditions with in those countries that America could exploit. What do you say of the people with in those countries, Afghanistan and Iraq, who feel more comfortable because of US's presence and do not want the one involved in genocide to pull out yet? Simplifying is easier, why not try a more challenging, problematizing approach? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pheeta Ram" To: "sarai list" Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2010 6:15 PM Subject: [Reader-list] Wikileaks and the End of America! > Dear all > > Wikileaks has brought before us another batch of facts about America's > sinful truth: Its calculated genocide of Iraqi civilians. In an article by > Eric Schmitt in the New York Times, he quotes from the blog of a guy named > Steven Aftergood, head of the project on government secrecy at the > Federation of American Scientists, who wrote: “WikiLeaks must be counted > among the enemies of open society because it does not respect the rule of > law nor does it honor the rights of individuals,” he wrote. > > Obviously, the "open society" here is America and the "the rights of > individuals" are the Rights of Americans. > America, an "open society", MY FOOT! > And, whatever happened to the rights of the people of the rest of the > world? > > You illegally occupy a country, kill unarmed civilians ( children and > women > included) and are now shit scared when the brothers, husbands and sons of > these very people are after your lives. Remember, you can fight an enemy > who > is afraid of getting hurt, of dying, but you can't win against an enemy > who > wants to die with you because you have decimated everything he could have > hoped to live for. > > I remember watching a documentary a few years back. This guy is > interviewing > an orphan ( around 8-9 years of age) whose entire family and the village > was > wiped out when the Americans dropped a bomb on a marriage procession > somewhere in Afganistan. The interviewer asks him:" Who killed your > parents?" "AMRIKAA!" "Who is America?" Of course, this little boy doesn't > know who or where America is but the look on his face is revelation enough > of his anguish and his resolve that the mission of his life is "THE END OF > AMERICA". > > Now, boy, who will save America? > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From taraprakash at gmail.com Sun Oct 24 20:33:06 2010 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 11:03:06 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Geelani announced one Article of the Constitutionof Free Kashmir - its "Liquor Policy" References: <655243.50391.qm@web112614.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><963D2A87-EB89-41A4-906B-649EC4B7FD08@sarai.net><0CF11F1FC9D3475789B2BFA4AE9A8FAA@tara><65EBC21086BB4302958257031F3C2ED9@tara> Message-ID: <1764824F082B4F1A885C5CF76DD02E98@tara> You can better answer that question. I was not sure you were a dance about the war. If you help me answer your question you can actually clarify your position in the mock throw. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Inder Salim" To: "reader-list" Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2010 9:08 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Geelani announced one Article of the Constitutionof Free Kashmir - its "Liquor Policy" > are not there dances > which are based on war > do they glorify wars? > > > On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 1:35 AM, TaraPrakash > wrote: >> But dear Inder Salim ji. I think I read that statement and expressed my >> skepticism. If Inder Salim ji says he does not support violence but >> glorifies stone pelters on any forum to do with Kashmiri separatists, I >> will >> have reason to be skeptical about his statement about nonviolence. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Inder Salim" >> To: "reader-list" >> Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2010 3:52 AM >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Geelani announced one Article of the >> Constitutionof Free Kashmir - its "Liquor Policy" >> >> >>> But dear Taraprakash ji >>> Shudda concludes >>> >>> "By the way, none of this means that I agree with Mr. SAS Geelani;s >>> vision of the future. I am merely stating the facts that I know and >>> witnessed." >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Inbox >>> X >>> >>> cashmeeri >>> Geelani announced one Article of the Constitution of Free Kashmir - its >>> "Liqu... >>> >>> 2:38 PM (22 hours ago) >>> >>> Reply >>> >>> | >>> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >>> Well, on these grounds, Syed Ali Shah Geelani is more moderate than >>> Mohandas ... >>> >>> 3:03 PM (22 hours ago) >>> Shuddhabrata SenguptaLoading... >>> 3:03 PM (22 hours ago) >>> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >>> to cashmeeri, Sarai >>> >>> show details 3:03 PM (22 hours ago) >>> >>> >>> >>> Well, on these grounds, Syed Ali Shah Geelani is more moderate than >>> Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi, who advocated total prohibition, >>> (regardless of whether one was or was not a believer in any religion) >>> and was even against the drinking of tea. Does that mean that we think >>> that his vision of 'Ram Rajya' would be identical to what Aalok Aima >>> considers to be an Islamic state? >>> >>> Incidentally, the state of Gujarat, has consistently imposed total >>> prohibition in deference to M.K. Gandhi's ideas on prohibition for as >>> long as it has existed as a state of the Indian Union. So, as per Mr. >>> Aima's suggestion, would we now be prepared to admit that Mr. Modi's >>> Gujarat (and the Gujarat of all his predecessors) is the closest we >>> have come to having an 'islamic State' in India. Oh no, the closest we >>> actually came to being an Islamic state in India was actually during >>> Morarji Desai;s prime ministership, when some of the current champions >>> of Hindutva were in power, when total prohibition was imposed on all >>> of India. In fact we came even closer than the vision of SAS Geelani, >>> which at least allows the 'non-believer' his or her daily tipple? >>> Incidentally, Mr. Geelani went on to suggest that if a bottle of >>> alchohl belongiing to a non believer was willingly or unwillingly >>> damaged by a Muslim, then the state would have to compensate the >>> non-believer for that damage. I haven;t quite heard of an Islamic >>> state willing to pay people to drink alchohl (if their bottle has been >>> damaged). He went on to quote an 'aayat' that said - "Muslims, do not >>> insult even the idols (but) of the idol worshippers, for they will >>> insult your God in return" and that the obligations of humanity are >>> binding in our relations even with those we consider to be our >>> enemies. Interesting stuff, coming as it does from the man who is so >>> offen held up as a figure of inflexible bigotry. >>> >>> By the way, none of this means that I agree with Mr. SAS Geelani;s >>> vision of the future. I am merely stating the facts that I know and >>> witnessed. >>> >>> best >>> >>> Shuddha >>> - Show quoted text - >>> >>> >>> >>> On 22-Oct-10, at 2:38 PM, cashmeeri wrote: >>> >>> - Show quoted text - >>> >>> Geelani announced one Article of the Constitution of Free Kashmir >>> - its "Liquor Policy": >>> >>> http://www.prokerala.com/news/articles/a176267.html >>> >>> "The system of justice in an independent Jammu and Kashmir would >>> be such that even liquor would not be banned for non-Muslims. It would >>> be prohibited fo......r the Muslim majority but if minorities feel >>> they want to have liquor they would be allowed to consume as their >>> right," >>> >>> Hello!!!! Hello!!!! >>> I thought it was going to be a Secular Free Kashmir. This sounds >>> suspiciously like an Islamic Free Kashmir. >>> >>> Interesting prospect : Free Kashmir ..... no Non-Muslims ..... no Liquor >>> >>> Maybe it is the "Tourism Policy" >>> >>> ............. aalok aima >>> >>> >>> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >>> >>> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >>> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >>> Raqs Media Collective >>> shuddha at sarai.net >>> www.sarai.net >>> www.raqsmediacollective.net >>> >>> >>> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> Reply >>> >>> Reply to all >>> >>> Forward >>> >>> >>> >>> Reply >>> >>> | >>> TaraPrakash >>> to Shuddhabrata, cashmeeri, Sarai >>> >>> show details 9:49 PM (15 hours ago) >>> >>> The point probably the mailer was making and you are missing is that >>> the assumption is that SASG's "free" Kashmir will be primarily an >>> Islamic state that will allow some unislamic things to happen. This is >>> the same vision of Hindu Rashtra that Advani was selling to Indians >>> when BJP was being seen as taking power away in India. >>> >>> That you don't necessarily agree with SASG makes no freaking sense to >>> me especially when you have unequivocally blatantly unskeptically >>> defended and justified SASG on this forum. By becoming a SASG stooge >>> you have joined the ranks of RSS. By putting SASG and MK Gandhi in the >>> same sentence you killed the embodiment of nonviolence once more, and >>> joined RSS ranks in more than one way. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" >>> >>> To: "cashmeeri" >>> Cc: "Sarai" >>> Sent: Friday, October 22, 2010 5:33 AM >>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Geelani announced one Article of the >>> Constitutionof Free Kashmir - its "Liquor Policy" >>> - Show quoted text - >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Well, on these grounds, Syed Ali Shah Geelani is more moderate >>> than Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi, who advocated total prohibition, >>> (regardless of whether one was or was not a believer in any religion) >>> and was even against the drinking of tea. Does that mean that we >>> think that his vision of 'Ram Rajya' would be identical to what >>> Aalok Aima considers to be an Islamic state? >>> >>> Incidentally, the state of Gujarat, has consistently imposed total >>> prohibition in deference to M.K. Gandhi's ideas on prohibition for as >>> long as it has existed as a state of the Indian Union. So, as per Mr. >>> Aima's suggestion, would we now be prepared to admit that Mr. Modi's >>> Gujarat (and the Gujarat of all his predecessors) is the closest we >>> have come to having an 'islamic State' in India. Oh no, the closest >>> we actually came to being an Islamic state in India was actually >>> during Morarji Desai;s prime ministership, when some of the current >>> champions of Hindutva were in power, when total prohibition was >>> imposed on all of India. In fact we came even closer than the vision >>> of SAS Geelani, which at least allows the 'non-believer' his or her >>> daily tipple? Incidentally, Mr. Geelani went on to suggest that if a >>> bottle of alchohl belongiing to a non believer was willingly or >>> unwillingly damaged by a Muslim, then the state would have to >>> compensate the non-believer for that damage. I haven;t quite heard of >>> an Islamic state willing to pay people to drink alchohl (if their >>> bottle has been damaged). He went on to quote an 'aayat' that said - >>> "Muslims, do not insult even the idols (but) of the idol worshippers, >>> for they will insult your God in return" and that the obligations of >>> humanity are binding in our relations even with those we consider to >>> be our enemies. Interesting stuff, coming as it does from the man >>> who is so offen held up as a figure of inflexible bigotry. >>> >>> By the way, none of this means that I agree with Mr. SAS Geelani;s >>> vision of the future. I am merely stating the facts that I know and >>> witnessed. >>> >>> best >>> >>> Shuddha >>> >>> >>> On 22-Oct-10, at 2:38 PM, cashmeeri wrote: >>> >>> >>> Geelani announced one Article of the Constitution of Free >>> Kashmir - its "Liquor Policy": >>> >>> http://www.prokerala.com/news/articles/a176267.html >>> >>> "The system of justice in an independent Jammu and Kashmir >>> would be such that even liquor would not be banned for non-Muslims. >>> It would be prohibited fo......r the Muslim majority but if >>> minorities feel they want to have liquor they would be allowed to >>> consume as their right," >>> >>> Hello!!!! Hello!!!! >>> I thought it was going to be a Secular Free Kashmir. This >>> sounds suspiciously like an Islamic Free Kashmir. >>> >>> Interesting prospect : Free Kashmir ..... no Non-Muslims ..... >>> no Liquor >>> >>> Maybe it is the "Tourism Policy" >>> >>> ............. aalok aima >>> >>> >>> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >>> with subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >>> >>> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >>> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >>> Raqs Media Collective >>> shuddha at sarai.net >>> www.sarai.net >>> www.raqsmediacollective.net >>> >>> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >>> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> Reply >>> >>> Reply to all >>> >>> Forward >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 9:49 PM, TaraPrakash >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> The point probably the mailer was making and you are missing is that >>>> the >>>> assumption is that SASG's "free" Kashmir will be primarily an Islamic >>>> state >>>> that will allow some unislamic things to happen. This is the same >>>> vision >>>> of >>>> Hindu Rashtra that Advani was selling to Indians when BJP was being >>>> seen >>>> as >>>> taking power away in India. >>>> >>>> That you don't necessarily agree with SASG makes no freaking sense to >>>> me >>>> especially when you have unequivocally blatantly unskeptically defended >>>> and >>>> justified SASG on this forum. By becoming a SASG stooge you have joined >>>> the >>>> ranks of RSS. By putting SASG and MK Gandhi in the same sentence you >>>> killed >>>> the embodiment of nonviolence once more, and joined RSS ranks in more >>>> than >>>> one way. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" >>>> >>>> To: "cashmeeri" >>>> Cc: "Sarai" >>>> Sent: Friday, October 22, 2010 5:33 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Geelani announced one Article of the >>>> Constitutionof Free Kashmir - its "Liquor Policy" >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Well, on these grounds, Syed Ali Shah Geelani is more moderate than >>>>> Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi, who advocated total prohibition, >>>>> (regardless >>>>> of >>>>> whether one was or was not a believer in any religion) and was even >>>>> against >>>>> the drinking of tea. Does that mean that we think that his vision of >>>>> 'Ram >>>>> Rajya' would be identical to what Aalok Aima considers to be an >>>>> Islamic >>>>> state? >>>>> >>>>> Incidentally, the state of Gujarat, has consistently imposed total >>>>> prohibition in deference to M.K. Gandhi's ideas on prohibition for as >>>>> long >>>>> as it has existed as a state of the Indian Union. So, as per Mr. >>>>> Aima's >>>>> suggestion, would we now be prepared to admit that Mr. Modi's Gujarat >>>>> (and >>>>> the Gujarat of all his predecessors) is the closest we have come to >>>>> having >>>>> an 'islamic State' in India. Oh no, the closest we actually came to >>>>> being >>>>> an Islamic state in India was actually during Morarji Desai;s prime >>>>> ministership, when some of the current champions of Hindutva were in >>>>> power, >>>>> when total prohibition was imposed on all of India. In fact we came >>>>> even >>>>> closer than the vision of SAS Geelani, which at least allows the >>>>> 'non-believer' his or her daily tipple? Incidentally, Mr. Geelani went >>>>> on >>>>> to suggest that if a bottle of alchohl belongiing to a non believer >>>>> was >>>>> willingly or unwillingly damaged by a Muslim, then the state would >>>>> have >>>>> to >>>>> compensate the non-believer for that damage. I haven;t quite heard of >>>>> an >>>>> Islamic state willing to pay people to drink alchohl (if their bottle >>>>> has >>>>> been damaged). He went on to quote an 'aayat' that said - "Muslims, do >>>>> not >>>>> insult even the idols (but) of the idol worshippers, for they will >>>>> insult >>>>> your God in return" and that the obligations of humanity are binding >>>>> in >>>>> our >>>>> relations even with those we consider to be our enemies. Interesting >>>>> stuff, coming as it does from the man who is so offen held up as a >>>>> figure >>>>> of inflexible bigotry. >>>>> >>>>> By the way, none of this means that I agree with Mr. SAS Geelani;s >>>>> vision >>>>> of the future. I am merely stating the facts that I know and >>>>> witnessed. >>>>> >>>>> best >>>>> >>>>> Shuddha >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 22-Oct-10, at 2:38 PM, cashmeeri wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Geelani announced one Article of the Constitution of Free Kashmir - >>>>>> its >>>>>> "Liquor Policy": >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.prokerala.com/news/articles/a176267.html >>>>>> >>>>>> "The system of justice in an independent Jammu and Kashmir would be >>>>>> such >>>>>> that even liquor would not be banned for non-Muslims. It would be >>>>>> prohibited fo......r the Muslim majority but if minorities feel they >>>>>> want >>>>>> to have liquor they would be allowed to consume as their right," >>>>>> >>>>>> Hello!!!! Hello!!!! >>>>>> I thought it was going to be a Secular Free Kashmir. This sounds >>>>>> suspiciously like an Islamic Free Kashmir. >>>>>> >>>>>> Interesting prospect : Free Kashmir ..... no Non-Muslims ..... no >>>>>> Liquor >>>>>> >>>>>> Maybe it is the "Tourism Policy" >>>>>> >>>>>> ............. aalok aima >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>> >>>>> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >>>>> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >>>>> Raqs Media Collective >>>>> shuddha at sarai.net >>>>> www.sarai.net >>>>> www.raqsmediacollective.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> subscribe >>>> in the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> http://indersalim.livejournal.com >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From taraprakash at gmail.com Sun Oct 24 20:39:04 2010 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 11:09:04 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Geelani announced one Article of the Constitutionof Free Kashmir - its "Liquor Policy" References: Message-ID: "We are with them in their struggle, and we know they are with us in our struggle. The message was loud and clear in the recently held meeting: OUR STRUGGLES ARE ONE! And in this regard it was a historic meeting." We have such historic meetings every month. How was the one held previously was less historic? History lives today for a month and then another historic happens. To ensure that there is just one voice in Kashmir you will have to destroy the other voices and SASG's gang has precisely done that. So no doubt the other voices in Kashmir are silent. The enemies of Kashmiris who live on daily wages are seling it one singular voice. You can pelt dissenters with stones but that will not change the facts. ----- Original Message ----- From: Pheeta Ram To: SJabbar Cc: TaraPrakash ; Sarai Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2010 3:12 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Geelani announced one Article of the Constitutionof Free Kashmir - its "Liquor Policy" Dear Sonia Pheeta Ram is not such a bad name that it should grate on your ears in such a jarring manner as to seem un-real. Its a different matter that the notes of the music i like are in contrapuntal disagreement with the notes of your favorite melodies. They needn't match, they won't and they shouldn't! Now, something about your harangue about Revolutions: "But there are lessons to be learned in history." I agree. And once you have learnt your lessons, you are given an A+ and you automatically graduate to the next level. Hip! Hip! Hurrah! How i wish things were so simple, straightforward and clear in a 'reovlution'. Chaos, confusion and hooliganism under many names rules the roost during 'revolutions'. Many things happen that shouldn't. The 'public property' shouldn't get damaged and destroyed and yet it do. Young careers shouldn't get ruined and yet they do. People must not sleep on empty stomachs and yet they have to under curfew. People shouldn't get killed and yet they do. Ab kya karen? Aazaadi ka mol chukaana padega. Bastille down>>monarchy gone>>anarchy>>dictatorship>>war>>monarchy again>>dictatorship again>>more wars>>two short-lived republics and "It took 100 years before France settled down to being a republic-- so much for the speed and efficacy of revolutions," you write. And who told you dear Sonia that 'revolutions' happen over night and end when a country "settles down to being a republic"? Who was it who said "Boy, its a long revolution!" ? The template shall run long, through endless cycles and spirals...who knows how long... But those who are for Revolution shall keep working for it through confusions, through chaos, through anarchy... What matters is that you are clear on which side you are; other things come afterwards. Kashmiris need first to be clear about what they want. And let me tell you, people who can't throw a stone in the name of freedom, can't sleep empty stomach, can't bear the chaos and confusion of this onward march towards mere political freedom don't deserve it! Revolution is another country Sonia ji. Now, let us come to the long piece that you have taken the trouble to post again on the Sarai List. I t-read each and every line and lo and behold! it turns out to be a PP(propaganda piece)! I pity the guy who wrote it. This guy is not for the freedom of Kashmiri people, not to speak of revolution. He hasn't been able to make up his mind yet. I am pretty sure. However, the narration did one thing for me: it reminded me of India's march towards political freedom. There were so many factions, violent, non-violent, moderate, militant; so many things were going on simultaneously. So lets not believe that Gandhi marched India towards political freedom and all the people followed him in a single file. Many a bitter struggle were fought over leadership of Congress, there were times when there seemed no leader in charge, and anarchy ruled the hydra-headed freedom movement if there was (only) one. And then the happening of many things simultaneously, the pressure for which was building all along, resulted in India's political freedom. India gained its independence and yet lost its revolution which hadn't even properly begun. The idea of independence is the most potent tool in the hands of ruling class to put the idea of revolution to sleep. The people are made to believe that 'independence' and 'revolution' are coterminus and the hegemony of elites begins. It takes some time and effort before the people rise up from this amnesiac sleep in revolt. Revolutions are inbuilt in the social fabric, its like nature: floods and storms and cyclones, their algorithms are hardwired into nature's mother board. And yet, there is something in the nature of 'electron' - the basic agent of 'revolution' - its uncertainty, seeming anarchy, which dares remould the circuits of 'revolutions' should they be boobytrapped, viruses hardcoded . So the Revolution (R) is when r is raised to the power of infinity. And infinity doesn't take my breath away. Blessed [pardon the vocabulary] are the Kashmiri youth whose lives have got entangled in the cross-hair of revolution. Blessed are they who are born under a star in turmoil for they shall have their options clear-cut before them. Blessed are the youth who have a stone to throw for they shall find their lives worth living and dying for. If they think they deserve freedom they shall get it. I know i am with them, through chaos, through confusion, through leaderless anarchy. (BTW, anarchy is not such a bad thing. Its anarchy that keeps hopes alive.) We are with them in their struggle, and we know they are with us in our struggle. The message was loud and clear in the recently held meeting: OUR STRUGGLES ARE ONE! And in this regard it was a historic meeting. Kuch baaten bahut seedhi, saaf aur moti hoti hai, unke liye humain Kant, Hegel aur Marx nahin padhna padta. Its the oxy-moronic 'philosophy of the gross'. Humari aankhen isi liye bani hain aur microscope isi liye. Both have their uses. So while looking through the microscope we shouldn't forget that we have eyes too, and a mind, and to top it all, a heart that perpetually longs for freedom. Yours sincerely PHEETA RAM From taraprakash at gmail.com Sun Oct 24 20:41:28 2010 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 11:11:28 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Geelani announced one Article of the Constitutionof Free Kashmir - its "Liquor Policy" References: <655243.50391.qm@web112614.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><963D2A87-EB89-41A4-906B-649EC4B7FD08@sarai.net><0CF11F1FC9D3475789B2BFA4AE9A8FAA@tara><65EBC21086BB4302958257031F3C2ED9@tara> Message-ID: <3031E78EA9B34E1889D870EA9AAD7FE9@tara> "it gives bullshit a bad name". Let us try giving bullshit a good name, your message was well written. Hope that does justice to the bull shit. ----- Original Message ----- From: Pheeta Ram To: TaraPrakash Cc: Inder Salim ; reader-list Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2010 5:30 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Geelani announced one Article of the Constitutionof Free Kashmir - its "Liquor Policy" Any act of self-defense against a tyrant is never violence. Any act by a tyrant, however seemingly benevolent, is always violence. If i catch you by your throat and you try to push me in order to save yourself, would you like to call your act of self-defense 'violence'? You won't. It is the will to self-preservation that makes life possible on this earth. Try choking yourself to death, you can't for your own body shall rebel against you, it shall breathe itself out of your grasp. The right to rebellion is inbuilt in the human body, is always already given. Bodies don't lie! Remember, little David brought down the giant Goliath by stones. The mythical image of the stone-pelter goes back ages. Please don't bullshit about unholy 'violence-non-violence' dyad, it gives bullshit a bad name! On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 1:35 AM, TaraPrakash wrote: But dear Inder Salim ji. I think I read that statement and expressed my skepticism. If Inder Salim ji says he does not support violence but glorifies stone pelters on any forum to do with Kashmiri separatists, I will have reason to be skeptical about his statement about nonviolence. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Inder Salim" To: "reader-list" Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2010 3:52 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Geelani announced one Article of the Constitutionof Free Kashmir - its "Liquor Policy" But dear Taraprakash ji Shudda concludes "By the way, none of this means that I agree with Mr. SAS Geelani;s vision of the future. I am merely stating the facts that I know and witnessed." Inbox X cashmeeri Geelani announced one Article of the Constitution of Free Kashmir - its "Liqu... 2:38 PM (22 hours ago) Reply | Shuddhabrata Sengupta Well, on these grounds, Syed Ali Shah Geelani is more moderate than Mohandas ... 3:03 PM (22 hours ago) Shuddhabrata SenguptaLoading... 3:03 PM (22 hours ago) Shuddhabrata Sengupta to cashmeeri, Sarai show details 3:03 PM (22 hours ago) Well, on these grounds, Syed Ali Shah Geelani is more moderate than Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi, who advocated total prohibition, (regardless of whether one was or was not a believer in any religion) and was even against the drinking of tea. Does that mean that we think that his vision of 'Ram Rajya' would be identical to what Aalok Aima considers to be an Islamic state? Incidentally, the state of Gujarat, has consistently imposed total prohibition in deference to M.K. Gandhi's ideas on prohibition for as long as it has existed as a state of the Indian Union. So, as per Mr. Aima's suggestion, would we now be prepared to admit that Mr. Modi's Gujarat (and the Gujarat of all his predecessors) is the closest we have come to having an 'islamic State' in India. Oh no, the closest we actually came to being an Islamic state in India was actually during Morarji Desai;s prime ministership, when some of the current champions of Hindutva were in power, when total prohibition was imposed on all of India. In fact we came even closer than the vision of SAS Geelani, which at least allows the 'non-believer' his or her daily tipple? Incidentally, Mr. Geelani went on to suggest that if a bottle of alchohl belongiing to a non believer was willingly or unwillingly damaged by a Muslim, then the state would have to compensate the non-believer for that damage. I haven;t quite heard of an Islamic state willing to pay people to drink alchohl (if their bottle has been damaged). He went on to quote an 'aayat' that said - "Muslims, do not insult even the idols (but) of the idol worshippers, for they will insult your God in return" and that the obligations of humanity are binding in our relations even with those we consider to be our enemies. Interesting stuff, coming as it does from the man who is so offen held up as a figure of inflexible bigotry. By the way, none of this means that I agree with Mr. SAS Geelani;s vision of the future. I am merely stating the facts that I know and witnessed. best Shuddha - Show quoted text - On 22-Oct-10, at 2:38 PM, cashmeeri wrote: - Show quoted text - Geelani announced one Article of the Constitution of Free Kashmir - its "Liquor Policy": http://www.prokerala.com/news/articles/a176267.html "The system of justice in an independent Jammu and Kashmir would be such that even liquor would not be banned for non-Muslims. It would be prohibited fo......r the Muslim majority but if minorities feel they want to have liquor they would be allowed to consume as their right," Hello!!!! Hello!!!! I thought it was going to be a Secular Free Kashmir. This sounds suspiciously like an Islamic Free Kashmir. Interesting prospect : Free Kashmir ..... no Non-Muslims ..... no Liquor Maybe it is the "Tourism Policy" ............. aalok aima _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Reply Reply to all Forward Reply | TaraPrakash to Shuddhabrata, cashmeeri, Sarai show details 9:49 PM (15 hours ago) The point probably the mailer was making and you are missing is that the assumption is that SASG's "free" Kashmir will be primarily an Islamic state that will allow some unislamic things to happen. This is the same vision of Hindu Rashtra that Advani was selling to Indians when BJP was being seen as taking power away in India. That you don't necessarily agree with SASG makes no freaking sense to me especially when you have unequivocally blatantly unskeptically defended and justified SASG on this forum. By becoming a SASG stooge you have joined the ranks of RSS. By putting SASG and MK Gandhi in the same sentence you killed the embodiment of nonviolence once more, and joined RSS ranks in more than one way. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" To: "cashmeeri" Cc: "Sarai" Sent: Friday, October 22, 2010 5:33 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Geelani announced one Article of the Constitutionof Free Kashmir - its "Liquor Policy" - Show quoted text - Well, on these grounds, Syed Ali Shah Geelani is more moderate than Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi, who advocated total prohibition, (regardless of whether one was or was not a believer in any religion) and was even against the drinking of tea. Does that mean that we think that his vision of 'Ram Rajya' would be identical to what Aalok Aima considers to be an Islamic state? Incidentally, the state of Gujarat, has consistently imposed total prohibition in deference to M.K. Gandhi's ideas on prohibition for as long as it has existed as a state of the Indian Union. So, as per Mr. Aima's suggestion, would we now be prepared to admit that Mr. Modi's Gujarat (and the Gujarat of all his predecessors) is the closest we have come to having an 'islamic State' in India. Oh no, the closest we actually came to being an Islamic state in India was actually during Morarji Desai;s prime ministership, when some of the current champions of Hindutva were in power, when total prohibition was imposed on all of India. In fact we came even closer than the vision of SAS Geelani, which at least allows the 'non-believer' his or her daily tipple? Incidentally, Mr. Geelani went on to suggest that if a bottle of alchohl belongiing to a non believer was willingly or unwillingly damaged by a Muslim, then the state would have to compensate the non-believer for that damage. I haven;t quite heard of an Islamic state willing to pay people to drink alchohl (if their bottle has been damaged). He went on to quote an 'aayat' that said - "Muslims, do not insult even the idols (but) of the idol worshippers, for they will insult your God in return" and that the obligations of humanity are binding in our relations even with those we consider to be our enemies. Interesting stuff, coming as it does from the man who is so offen held up as a figure of inflexible bigotry. By the way, none of this means that I agree with Mr. SAS Geelani;s vision of the future. I am merely stating the facts that I know and witnessed. best Shuddha On 22-Oct-10, at 2:38 PM, cashmeeri wrote: Geelani announced one Article of the Constitution of Free Kashmir - its "Liquor Policy": http://www.prokerala.com/news/articles/a176267.html "The system of justice in an independent Jammu and Kashmir would be such that even liquor would not be banned for non-Muslims. It would be prohibited fo......r the Muslim majority but if minorities feel they want to have liquor they would be allowed to consume as their right," Hello!!!! Hello!!!! I thought it was going to be a Secular Free Kashmir. This sounds suspiciously like an Islamic Free Kashmir. Interesting prospect : Free Kashmir ..... no Non-Muslims ..... no Liquor Maybe it is the "Tourism Policy" ............. aalok aima _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Reply Reply to all Forward On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 9:49 PM, TaraPrakash wrote: The point probably the mailer was making and you are missing is that the assumption is that SASG's "free" Kashmir will be primarily an Islamic state that will allow some unislamic things to happen. This is the same vision of Hindu Rashtra that Advani was selling to Indians when BJP was being seen as taking power away in India. That you don't necessarily agree with SASG makes no freaking sense to me especially when you have unequivocally blatantly unskeptically defended and justified SASG on this forum. By becoming a SASG stooge you have joined the ranks of RSS. By putting SASG and MK Gandhi in the same sentence you killed the embodiment of nonviolence once more, and joined RSS ranks in more than one way. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" To: "cashmeeri" Cc: "Sarai" Sent: Friday, October 22, 2010 5:33 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Geelani announced one Article of the Constitutionof Free Kashmir - its "Liquor Policy" Well, on these grounds, Syed Ali Shah Geelani is more moderate than Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi, who advocated total prohibition, (regardless of whether one was or was not a believer in any religion) and was even against the drinking of tea. Does that mean that we think that his vision of 'Ram Rajya' would be identical to what Aalok Aima considers to be an Islamic state? Incidentally, the state of Gujarat, has consistently imposed total prohibition in deference to M.K. Gandhi's ideas on prohibition for as long as it has existed as a state of the Indian Union. So, as per Mr. Aima's suggestion, would we now be prepared to admit that Mr. Modi's Gujarat (and the Gujarat of all his predecessors) is the closest we have come to having an 'islamic State' in India. Oh no, the closest we actually came to being an Islamic state in India was actually during Morarji Desai;s prime ministership, when some of the current champions of Hindutva were in power, when total prohibition was imposed on all of India. In fact we came even closer than the vision of SAS Geelani, which at least allows the 'non-believer' his or her daily tipple? Incidentally, Mr. Geelani went on to suggest that if a bottle of alchohl belongiing to a non believer was willingly or unwillingly damaged by a Muslim, then the state would have to compensate the non-believer for that damage. I haven;t quite heard of an Islamic state willing to pay people to drink alchohl (if their bottle has been damaged). He went on to quote an 'aayat' that said - "Muslims, do not insult even the idols (but) of the idol worshippers, for they will insult your God in return" and that the obligations of humanity are binding in our relations even with those we consider to be our enemies. Interesting stuff, coming as it does from the man who is so offen held up as a figure of inflexible bigotry. By the way, none of this means that I agree with Mr. SAS Geelani;s vision of the future. I am merely stating the facts that I know and witnessed. best Shuddha On 22-Oct-10, at 2:38 PM, cashmeeri wrote: Geelani announced one Article of the Constitution of Free Kashmir - its "Liquor Policy": http://www.prokerala.com/news/articles/a176267.html "The system of justice in an independent Jammu and Kashmir would be such that even liquor would not be banned for non-Muslims. It would be prohibited fo......r the Muslim majority but if minorities feel they want to have liquor they would be allowed to consume as their right," Hello!!!! Hello!!!! I thought it was going to be a Secular Free Kashmir. This sounds suspiciously like an Islamic Free Kashmir. Interesting prospect : Free Kashmir ..... no Non-Muslims ..... no Liquor Maybe it is the "Tourism Policy" ............. aalok aima _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sun Oct 24 20:57:54 2010 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 20:57:54 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?Kashmir=92s_ethnic_communities_sla?= =?windows-1252?q?m_separatist_leaders?= Message-ID: *Kashmir’s ethnic communities slam separatist leaders Reuters Asia - ANI Link - http://videopoint.reuters.com/Application.html#view=scriptview;id=180099; New Delhi* Activists from various ethnic and tribal communities of Indian Kashmir on Saturday (October 23) slammed separatist leaders such as Syed Ali Shah Geelani for the ongoing unrest in the disputed Himalayan region, which has grown fiercer by the day. Geelani, Chairman of the All Parties Hurriyat (Freedom) Conference, addressing a seminar in New Delhi on Thursday (October 21), had called for a boycott of the three-member team of interlocutors, appointed by New Delhi, for dialogue with the people of Indian Kashmir. Another seminar was conducted in New Delhi on Saturday, titled 'Voice of Kashmir', where the activists slammed the separatist outfits and staged a protest against the visit of Geelani to New Delhi. "The kind of freedom that Jammu and Kashmir has, I do not think any other state has that. The freedom they (separatist leaders) talk about is (sham since) they do not have that kind of following. They do not represent even one percent of Kashmir. They are people of just two-and-a half districts, and they are demanding freedom. We are against it. Neither we are in support of autonomy, nor freedom and nor self-rule. We just want to live with India and would live with India," said Qamar Rabbani Chechi, who is a Kashmiri 'Gujjar', from the nomadic shepherd community. "They (separatist leaders) are just enjoying their slogans of separatism and freedom. They are doing all this by stepping upon the bodies of dead innocents. So, whether they are our mainstream politicians or should we say, pseudo politicians, they are doing all this by stepping on the bodies of the innocent people. This is the unfortunate thing with Jammu and Kashmir that neither we have got good mainstream politicians nor good separatist leaders. So, that's why, the issue of Kashmir is growing fierce and we are not able to solve it," added Darakhshan Andrabi, chief of the Socialistic Democratic Party. Hundreds of Kashmiri 'Pandits', or Hindus, were forced to flee the region after a rebellion against New Delhi's rule broke out in the Muslim-majority valley region of Kashmir two decades ago. A separatist strike and security lockdown has dragged on for over four months in Kashmir, where thousands have been killed since the insurgency broke out in 1989. Both India and Pakistan claim Muslim-majority Kashmir in full but rule it in part and have fought two wars over it since they won independence from Britain in 1947. From indersalim at gmail.com Sun Oct 24 22:04:30 2010 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 22:04:30 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Geelani announced one Article of the Constitutionof Free Kashmir - its "Liquor Policy" In-Reply-To: <1764824F082B4F1A885C5CF76DD02E98@tara> References: <655243.50391.qm@web112614.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <963D2A87-EB89-41A4-906B-649EC4B7FD08@sarai.net> <0CF11F1FC9D3475789B2BFA4AE9A8FAA@tara> <65EBC21086BB4302958257031F3C2ED9@tara> <1764824F082B4F1A885C5CF76DD02E98@tara> Message-ID: Thanks dear, i will try to reflect I repeat, as you know, that there are War dances, mostly folk, using actual weapons while dancing on a beat. And even when there is no direct use of weapons, there is always a sign, a historical reference to make it potent. Even war poetry has eulogized its heroes. There is always celebration of a loss of the present in the future. We have cherished memories about the days when we suffered but endured.... It is only in the modern times that we have lost that understanding of living our respective immediate pasts. Surely, the folk dancers have no clue or historical knowledge about the event. It is too buried in the system and yet they need that violent past to celebrate the present. One of my performance at Trafalgar square in London was about the 1857. i used the bandwallas dress which has come to them via British Military Rule in India. Then the poor indian people were employed to play saxophones and drums etc. Now, they are gone, but the form has stayed, so much so, that no Indian marriage is possible without their participation. Surprisingly the caps still have rising sun on them. That is how we are, all the arts are like that, it is only in the contemporaneity of imagination that we use is discursively, but the thing stays.... Now these bandwalla hardly glorifying the British rule, far from that, it is rozi roti (bread ) for them, and essential fashion for the middle and upper middle class to celebrate. Well that is it. About the latest in Kashmir: it is very complex to reflect on what it means for ordinary kashmiri. An average stone pelter is not a hated figure in kashmir. You agree ? And as Peetha has rightly said, that stone pelting is a result of excessive violence by police and security forces upon the unarmed protesters . It is actually an outburst of a deeply accumulated anger about the excessive military presence in the valley. Indian govt and the state govt has no agency to trust but the police and security forces to be there in there in the first place. In that situation the entire population is pressed against a wall which is too hard to break. Stone pelting is not an isolated event in kashmir, it is an symptom of a long history of mistreament. It is about 1947 hindu muslim divide. But Kashmiris say that since Yousuf Shah Chek, the last Kashmiri King, they were simply ruled by one or the other. So, they reject the Mughal ruler Akabar the great, and also Jinnah the founder of Pakistan. Dont they ? I have done a performance on Palestine issue, and so have i done a performance on Kashmir issue. I have done things on KP migrations, and also about Women's issues. I am trying to bring back the sensible, and my little effort to transform the stone into a paper ball, first at Jantar Manter and then at LTG is layered , which i guess, has managed to talk about what is happening on streets, so part of new aesthetics value judgment. Those who will throw stones will throw them anyway, both you and me are not going to stop them, In fact none, all those who spoke at the LTG will never ever think of pelting a stone to hit the other. Will they? But any solidarity with the protesters does not amount to bad faith. It will be reciprocated, they will also endores what they dont do. For example, Arundhati Roy insisted that Kashmiris should think of other injustices and not pick and choose Well, see how the new non-fiction writing is out-witting the fiction at stalls. The books which speak about the realities uninhibitedly are liked by the masses. Was not the performance at LTG another book which has created controversy like those books which are blamed for encouraging dissent or indecency etc. and yet we both uphold the freedom of expression and dont want any banning of books, right. There is already a huge literature films, poems performances coming out from modern movements, Tibetans are supported for their cause all over the world, much to the annoyance of Chinese. There are many other examples, but how to see Kashmir, a little away from our national perspective. The situation is ripe for inserting skepticism in the minds of young kashmiris, I am sure SSAG would not have approved the idea of my doing the performance at the stage which actually obliterated him for a while. There is no deep willingness in the minds of our intellectuals to understand the roles which arts can play in deconstructing the logjams of issues. Be it kashmir or any other. All we do is depend squarely on the essay prose, mostly journalistic, which creates confusions without any accountability. We have actually rendered the arts to a position which is less than a Dalit. and when it looks grand on the stage it is like a temple prostitute dancing for the Brahmin or Bureaucrat in the present context. All the sarkari sufi mehfils finally manage to throw a little money at the perormers in exchange of legitimizing their corrupt practices back in their hidden cabins. See, how shamelessly we bring in tribal dancers time and again to dance on the occasions which exhibit the voluptuous use of money and justification of corrupt practices. This all is happening because we know all the art forms are finally subservient to the Nation State. They are not autonomous in design. and if they try outside that, they are labeled uninteresting or against the society or state. See, how we treat nudity in art,. FN Souza was once arrested along with his nude painting. We can lynch Hussain for daring to do a little line work depicting Goddess. We are terribly so... No, my dear, we are basically too primitive in concept. Primitive not in positive sense, but unwittingly feeding the system which is enriching the capitalist consumerist world order. Well, if we all are zombies and are willing to lead a life which has no space for radical thought, then be it so But how to stop the spirituality to reside in marginality of all that.... I am a little straw on the vast surface with love is On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 8:33 PM, TaraPrakash wrote: > You can better answer that question. I was not sure you were a dance about > the war. If you help me answer your question you can actually clarify your > position in the mock throw. > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Inder Salim" > To: "reader-list" > Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2010 9:08 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Geelani announced one Article of the > Constitutionof Free Kashmir - its "Liquor Policy" > > >> are not there dances >> which are based on war >> do they glorify wars? >> >> >> On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 1:35 AM, TaraPrakash >> wrote: >>> >>> But dear Inder Salim ji. I think I read that statement and expressed my >>> skepticism. If Inder Salim ji says he does not support violence but >>> glorifies stone pelters on any forum to do with Kashmiri separatists, I >>> will >>> have reason to be skeptical about his statement about nonviolence. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Inder Salim" >>> To: "reader-list" >>> Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2010 3:52 AM >>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Geelani announced one Article of the >>> Constitutionof Free Kashmir - its "Liquor Policy" >>> >>> >>>> But dear Taraprakash ji >>>> Shudda concludes >>>> >>>> "By the way, none of this means that I agree with Mr. SAS Geelani;s >>>> vision of the future. I am merely stating the facts that I know and >>>> witnessed." >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Inbox >>>> X >>>> >>>> cashmeeri >>>> Geelani announced one Article of the Constitution of Free Kashmir - its >>>> "Liqu... >>>> >>>> 2:38 PM (22 hours ago) >>>> >>>> Reply >>>> >>>> | >>>> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >>>> Well, on these grounds, Syed Ali Shah Geelani is more moderate than >>>> Mohandas ... >>>> >>>> 3:03 PM (22 hours ago) >>>> Shuddhabrata SenguptaLoading... >>>> 3:03 PM (22 hours ago) >>>> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >>>> to cashmeeri, Sarai >>>> >>>> show details 3:03 PM (22 hours ago) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Well, on these grounds, Syed Ali Shah Geelani is more moderate than >>>> Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi, who advocated total prohibition, >>>> (regardless of whether one was or was not a believer in any religion) >>>> and was even against the drinking of tea. Does that mean that we think >>>> that his vision of 'Ram Rajya' would be identical to what Aalok Aima >>>> considers to be an Islamic state? >>>> >>>> Incidentally, the state of Gujarat, has consistently imposed total >>>> prohibition in deference to M.K. Gandhi's ideas on prohibition for as >>>> long as it has existed as a state of the Indian Union. So, as per Mr. >>>> Aima's suggestion, would we now be prepared to admit that Mr. Modi's >>>> Gujarat (and the Gujarat of all his predecessors) is the closest we >>>> have come to having an 'islamic State' in India. Oh no, the closest we >>>> actually came to being an Islamic state in India was actually during >>>> Morarji Desai;s prime ministership, when some of the current champions >>>> of Hindutva were in power, when total prohibition was imposed on all >>>> of India. In fact we came even closer than the vision of SAS Geelani, >>>> which at least allows the 'non-believer' his or her daily tipple? >>>> Incidentally, Mr. Geelani went on to suggest that if a bottle of >>>> alchohl belongiing to a non believer was willingly or unwillingly >>>> damaged by a Muslim, then the state would have to compensate the >>>> non-believer for that damage. I haven;t quite heard of an Islamic >>>> state willing to pay people to drink alchohl (if their bottle has been >>>> damaged). He went on to quote an 'aayat' that said - "Muslims, do not >>>> insult even the idols (but) of the idol worshippers, for they will >>>> insult your God in return" and that the obligations of humanity are >>>> binding in our relations even with those we consider to be our >>>> enemies. Interesting stuff, coming as it does from the man who is so >>>> offen held up as a figure of inflexible bigotry. >>>> >>>> By the way, none of this means that I agree with Mr. SAS Geelani;s >>>> vision of the future. I am merely stating the facts that I know and >>>> witnessed. >>>> >>>> best >>>> >>>> Shuddha >>>> - Show quoted text - >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 22-Oct-10, at 2:38 PM, cashmeeri wrote: >>>> >>>> - Show quoted text - >>>> >>>> Geelani announced one Article of the Constitution of Free Kashmir >>>> - its "Liquor Policy": >>>> >>>> http://www.prokerala.com/news/articles/a176267.html >>>> >>>> "The system of justice in an independent Jammu and Kashmir would >>>> be such that even liquor would not be banned for non-Muslims. It would >>>> be prohibited fo......r the Muslim majority but if minorities feel >>>> they want to have liquor they would be allowed to consume as their >>>> right," >>>> >>>> Hello!!!! Hello!!!! >>>> I thought it was going to be a Secular Free Kashmir. This sounds >>>> suspiciously like an Islamic Free Kashmir. >>>> >>>> Interesting prospect : Free Kashmir ..... no Non-Muslims ..... no Liquor >>>> >>>> Maybe it is the "Tourism Policy" >>>> >>>> ............. aalok aima >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> >>>> >>>> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >>>> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >>>> Raqs Media Collective >>>> shuddha at sarai.net >>>> www.sarai.net >>>> www.raqsmediacollective.net >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> Reply >>>> >>>> Reply to all >>>> >>>> Forward >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Reply >>>> >>>> | >>>> TaraPrakash >>>> to Shuddhabrata, cashmeeri, Sarai >>>> >>>> show details 9:49 PM (15 hours ago) >>>> >>>> The point probably the mailer was making and you are missing is that >>>> the assumption is that SASG's "free" Kashmir will be primarily an >>>> Islamic state that will allow some unislamic things to happen. This is >>>> the same vision of Hindu Rashtra that Advani was selling to Indians >>>> when BJP was being seen as taking power away in India. >>>> >>>> That you don't necessarily agree with SASG makes no freaking sense to >>>> me especially when you have unequivocally blatantly unskeptically >>>> defended and justified SASG on this forum. By becoming a SASG stooge >>>> you have joined the ranks of RSS. By putting SASG and MK Gandhi in the >>>> same sentence you killed the embodiment of nonviolence once more, and >>>> joined RSS ranks in more than one way. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" >>>> >>>> To: "cashmeeri" >>>> Cc: "Sarai" >>>> Sent: Friday, October 22, 2010 5:33 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Geelani announced one Article of the >>>> Constitutionof Free Kashmir - its "Liquor Policy" >>>> - Show quoted text - >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Well, on these grounds, Syed Ali Shah Geelani is more moderate >>>> than Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi, who advocated total prohibition, >>>> (regardless of whether one was or was not a believer in any religion) >>>> and was even against the drinking of tea. Does that mean that we >>>> think that his vision of 'Ram Rajya' would be identical to what >>>> Aalok Aima considers to be an Islamic state? >>>> >>>> Incidentally, the state of Gujarat, has consistently imposed total >>>> prohibition in deference to M.K. Gandhi's ideas on prohibition for as >>>> long as it has existed as a state of the Indian Union. So, as per Mr. >>>> Aima's suggestion, would we now be prepared to admit that Mr. Modi's >>>> Gujarat (and the Gujarat of all his predecessors) is the closest we >>>> have come to having an 'islamic State' in India. Oh no, the closest >>>> we actually came to being an Islamic state in India was actually >>>> during Morarji Desai;s prime ministership, when some of the current >>>> champions of Hindutva were in power, when total prohibition was >>>> imposed on all of India. In fact we came even closer than the vision >>>> of SAS Geelani, which at least allows the 'non-believer' his or her >>>> daily tipple? Incidentally, Mr. Geelani went on to suggest that if a >>>> bottle of alchohl belongiing to a non believer was willingly or >>>> unwillingly damaged by a Muslim, then the state would have to >>>> compensate the non-believer for that damage. I haven;t quite heard of >>>> an Islamic state willing to pay people to drink alchohl (if their >>>> bottle has been damaged). He went on to quote an 'aayat' that said - >>>> "Muslims, do not insult even the idols (but) of the idol worshippers, >>>> for they will insult your God in return" and that the obligations of >>>> humanity are binding in our relations even with those we consider to >>>> be our enemies. Interesting stuff, coming as it does from the man >>>> who is so offen held up as a figure of inflexible bigotry. >>>> >>>> By the way, none of this means that I agree with Mr. SAS Geelani;s >>>> vision of the future. I am merely stating the facts that I know and >>>> witnessed. >>>> >>>> best >>>> >>>> Shuddha >>>> >>>> >>>> On 22-Oct-10, at 2:38 PM, cashmeeri wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Geelani announced one Article of the Constitution of Free >>>> Kashmir - its "Liquor Policy": >>>> >>>> http://www.prokerala.com/news/articles/a176267.html >>>> >>>> "The system of justice in an independent Jammu and Kashmir >>>> would be such that even liquor would not be banned for non-Muslims. >>>> It would be prohibited fo......r the Muslim majority but if >>>> minorities feel they want to have liquor they would be allowed to >>>> consume as their right," >>>> >>>> Hello!!!! Hello!!!! >>>> I thought it was going to be a Secular Free Kashmir. This >>>> sounds suspiciously like an Islamic Free Kashmir. >>>> >>>> Interesting prospect : Free Kashmir ..... no Non-Muslims ..... >>>> no Liquor >>>> >>>> Maybe it is the "Tourism Policy" >>>> >>>> ............. aalok aima >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >>>> with subscribe in the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> >>>> >>>> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >>>> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >>>> Raqs Media Collective >>>> shuddha at sarai.net >>>> www.sarai.net >>>> www.raqsmediacollective.net >>>> >>>> >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> >>>> >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> Reply >>>> >>>> Reply to all >>>> >>>> Forward >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 9:49 PM, TaraPrakash >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> The point probably the mailer was making and you are missing is that >>>>> the >>>>> assumption is that SASG's "free" Kashmir will be primarily an Islamic >>>>> state >>>>> that will allow some unislamic things to happen. This is the same >>>>> vision >>>>> of >>>>> Hindu Rashtra that Advani was selling to Indians when BJP was being >>>>> seen >>>>> as >>>>> taking power away in India. >>>>> >>>>> That you don't necessarily agree with SASG makes no freaking sense to >>>>> me >>>>> especially when you have unequivocally blatantly unskeptically defended >>>>> and >>>>> justified SASG on this forum. By becoming a SASG stooge you have joined >>>>> the >>>>> ranks of RSS. By putting SASG and MK Gandhi in the same sentence you >>>>> killed >>>>> the embodiment of nonviolence once more, and joined RSS ranks in more >>>>> than >>>>> one way. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" >>>>> >>>>> To: "cashmeeri" >>>>> Cc: "Sarai" >>>>> Sent: Friday, October 22, 2010 5:33 AM >>>>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Geelani announced one Article of the >>>>> Constitutionof Free Kashmir - its "Liquor Policy" >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Well, on these grounds, Syed Ali Shah Geelani is more moderate than >>>>>> Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi, who advocated total prohibition, >>>>>> (regardless >>>>>> of >>>>>> whether one was or was not a believer in any religion) and was even >>>>>> against >>>>>> the drinking of tea. Does that mean that we think that his vision of >>>>>> 'Ram >>>>>> Rajya' would be identical to what Aalok Aima considers to be an >>>>>> Islamic >>>>>> state? >>>>>> >>>>>> Incidentally, the state of Gujarat, has consistently imposed total >>>>>> prohibition in deference to M.K. Gandhi's ideas on prohibition for as >>>>>> long >>>>>> as it has existed as a state of the Indian Union. So, as per Mr. >>>>>> Aima's >>>>>> suggestion, would we now be prepared to admit that Mr. Modi's Gujarat >>>>>> (and >>>>>> the Gujarat of all his predecessors) is the closest we have come to >>>>>> having >>>>>> an 'islamic State' in India. Oh no, the closest we actually came to >>>>>> being >>>>>> an Islamic state in India was actually during Morarji Desai;s prime >>>>>> ministership, when some of the current champions of Hindutva were in >>>>>> power, >>>>>> when total prohibition was imposed on all of India. In fact we came >>>>>> even >>>>>> closer than the vision of SAS Geelani, which at least allows the >>>>>> 'non-believer' his or her daily tipple? Incidentally, Mr. Geelani went >>>>>> on >>>>>> to suggest that if a bottle of alchohl belongiing to a non believer >>>>>> was >>>>>> willingly or unwillingly damaged by a Muslim, then the state would >>>>>> have >>>>>> to >>>>>> compensate the non-believer for that damage. I haven;t quite heard of >>>>>> an >>>>>> Islamic state willing to pay people to drink alchohl (if their bottle >>>>>> has >>>>>> been damaged). He went on to quote an 'aayat' that said - "Muslims, do >>>>>> not >>>>>> insult even the idols (but) of the idol worshippers, for they will >>>>>> insult >>>>>> your God in return" and that the obligations of humanity are binding >>>>>> in >>>>>> our >>>>>> relations even with those we consider to be our enemies. Interesting >>>>>> stuff, coming as it does from the man who is so offen held up as a >>>>>> figure >>>>>> of inflexible bigotry. >>>>>> >>>>>> By the way, none of this means that I agree with Mr. SAS Geelani;s >>>>>> vision >>>>>> of the future. I am merely stating the facts that I know and >>>>>> witnessed. >>>>>> >>>>>> best >>>>>> >>>>>> Shuddha >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 22-Oct-10, at 2:38 PM, cashmeeri wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Geelani announced one Article of the Constitution of Free Kashmir - >>>>>>> its >>>>>>> "Liquor Policy": >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.prokerala.com/news/articles/a176267.html >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "The system of justice in an independent Jammu and Kashmir would be >>>>>>> such >>>>>>> that even liquor would not be banned for non-Muslims. It would be >>>>>>> prohibited fo......r the Muslim majority but if minorities feel they >>>>>>> want >>>>>>> to have liquor they would be allowed to consume as their right," >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hello!!!! Hello!!!! >>>>>>> I thought it was going to be a Secular Free Kashmir. This sounds >>>>>>> suspiciously like an Islamic Free Kashmir. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Interesting prospect : Free Kashmir ..... no Non-Muslims ..... no >>>>>>> Liquor >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Maybe it is the "Tourism Policy" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ............. aalok aima >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>>> >>>>>> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >>>>>> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >>>>>> Raqs Media Collective >>>>>> shuddha at sarai.net >>>>>> www.sarai.net >>>>>> www.raqsmediacollective.net >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>> >>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>> subscribe >>>>> in the subject header. >>>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> http://indersalim.livejournal.com >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From pheeta.ram at gmail.com Sun Oct 24 23:57:23 2010 From: pheeta.ram at gmail.com (Pheeta Ram) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 23:57:23 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Wikileaks and the End of America! In-Reply-To: <19A24F3AAB7F4FF182DC8093AA039D60@tara> References: <19A24F3AAB7F4FF182DC8093AA039D60@tara> Message-ID: Dear Taraprakash Many people on this forum, yourself included, are very good at "challenging, problematizing approach." And i happily benefit from their insights. My nature and capabilities and limitations of time at hand don't permit me to follow suit. I get satisfied when my information reaches a threshold, for after that i only have to decide on which side i am. Then i move on. I believe in the ethics of arrival and not in the aesthetics of deferral. Best Pheeta Ram From iram at sarai.net Sun Oct 24 23:51:09 2010 From: iram at sarai.net (Iram Ghufran) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 00:21:09 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] Announcement>>Kathak in the City Message-ID: <4CC47915.2010306@sarai.net> Ashavari Majumdar Dance Company, supported by Sarai CSDS presents CITY 7 pm, Friday, Oct 29, 2010 Max Mueller Bhawan, 3 Kasturba Gandhi Marg, Delhi ** A response to the Indian city -this piece reveals the fluidity of the space between daily and ‘extra-daily’ movements, between dance and ‘non-dance’. Contemporary urban Indian narratives, characters map the relationship between rhythm, movement and text using Kathak technique. Choreographer’s note: For this production my movement research was scourced from observing ‘daily’ movements- to evoke the casual chaos of Indian city streets as part of the City as Studio Fellowship with Sarai CSDS.The most exciting aspect for me has been discovering the fluid nature of the space between ‘dance’ and ‘non-dance’. This process allowed me to explore and play in that space. Kathak technique trains you to improvise with rhythm and movement and interpret text in multiple ways. This piece extends these techniques to explore certain narratives and characters. It has been challenging to collaborate with dancers with radically different movement vocabularies. They contributed stories and the piece achieved its present form in an unexpected, organic way. -- Ashavari Majumdar Dance Company 394 Purna Das Road Calcutta 700 029 ph +91 8100 980 554 From taraprakash at gmail.com Mon Oct 25 03:58:53 2010 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 18:28:53 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Wikileaks and the End of America! References: <19A24F3AAB7F4FF182DC8093AA039D60@tara> Message-ID: <844114BCC9DC40AFA72143AF934384C0@tara> It's not really heartening to know that you speak vociferously against one side and then say you were just taking a short cut as you didn't have much time at hand. I call this approach "4 legs good 2 legs bad" approach from George Orwell. Whatever is 2 legs, for instance, is America. You decide you will join 4 legs (anti US) all the time. Many of us do that, reduce issues to black and white, and take one side. Kabir referred to such situation in the following: Chalti Chaaki deki ke Diya Kabira roy Do patan ke bich mein Sabut bacha na koy. After seeing the grinding mill in operation, Kabira started crying. The clash of 2 sides left no one in one piece. ----- Original Message ----- From: Pheeta Ram To: TaraPrakash Cc: sarai list Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2010 2:27 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Wikileaks and the End of America! Dear Taraprakash Many people on this forum, yourself included, are very good at "challenging, problematizing approach." And i happily benefit from their insights. My nature and capabilities and limitations of time at hand don't permit me to follow suit. I get satisfied when my information reaches a threshold, for after that i only have to decide on which side i am. Then i move on. I believe in the ethics of arrival and not in the aesthetics of deferral. Best Pheeta Ram From pheeta.ram at gmail.com Mon Oct 25 05:16:23 2010 From: pheeta.ram at gmail.com (Pheeta Ram) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 05:16:23 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Wikileaks and the End of America! In-Reply-To: <844114BCC9DC40AFA72143AF934384C0@tara> References: <19A24F3AAB7F4FF182DC8093AA039D60@tara> <844114BCC9DC40AFA72143AF934384C0@tara> Message-ID: Dear Taraprakash Your soft corner for the US of A is revealing. Now don't give me this bullshit that since some people don't want the US to leave Iraq the people should start having second thoughts about their dream of throwing the US out of Iraq. A colonizer however benevolent is still a colonizer. During India's struggle for freedom, there were many people who didn't want independence and were happy under the British. Many of them were those who had prospered under the British rule. Though the transfer of political power to the Indians (elites) have made no difference yet i take being free from a colonial ruler as a positive thing. " Many of us do that, reduce issues to black and white, and take one side." Now, i firmly believe that this is not the case with many of us. Many of us are fence-sitters. They remain non-committal to the end. They want to eat their cake and have it too. Many of us have lost their capacity to reduce things to black and white. Many of us don't believe in taking one side for most of us are not sure on which side we are. So its no virtue in deluding yourself by thinking that many of us reduce the issues to black and white. The goal must be towards making issues clear (black and white). And if your goal should be otherwise you can revel in the greyness of the things, in the aesthetics of deferral. But you can't defer things ad infinitum. A day comes when you have to take sides, make an ethical choice. Either you are for HITLER or AGAINST. Either you are for US or against. Thank you for quoting Kabir. I am sure Kabir has something profound to say here but if i commit the heresy to take it very literally i would say its a good thing if no grain remains sabut between two wheels for then we shall have flour to feed ourselves. Its metaphoric understanding again brings us to many people's favorite hobby-horse: violence-nonviolence dyad. So i rather not tread those paths again. However, i am still at loss as to why you have such love lost for America! America! Best Pheeta Ram From sonia.jabbar at gmail.com Mon Oct 25 07:52:09 2010 From: sonia.jabbar at gmail.com (SJabbar) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 07:52:09 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Geelani announced one Article of the Constitutionof Free Kashmir - its "Liquor Policy" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Pheeta Ram, Your name doesn¹t jar, your rudeness does. But I guess that is why you hide behind a pseudonym. It allows you to say things that you would not if we all knew who you were. Sincerely, Sonia Jabbar On 24/10/10 12:42 PM, "Pheeta Ram" wrote: > Dear Sonia > > Pheeta Ram is not such a bad name that it should grate on your ears in such a > jarring manner as to seem un-real. Its a different matter that the notes of > the music i like are in contrapuntal disagreement with the notes of your > favorite melodies. They needn't match, they won't and they shouldn't! > > Now, something about your harangue about Revolutions: "But there are lessons > to be learned in history." I agree. And once you have learnt your lessons, you > are given an A+ and you automatically graduate to the next level. Hip! Hip! > Hurrah! How i wish things were so simple, straightforward and clear in a > 'reovlution'. Chaos, confusion and hooliganism under many names rules the > roost during 'revolutions'. Many things happen that shouldn't. The 'public > property' shouldn't get damaged and destroyed and yet it do. Young careers > shouldn't get ruined and yet they do. People must not sleep on empty stomachs > and yet they have to under curfew. People shouldn't get killed and yet they > do. Ab kya karen? Aazaadi ka mol chukaana padega.  > > Bastille down>>monarchy gone>>anarchy>>dictatorship>>war>>monarchy > again>>dictatorship again>>more wars>>two short-lived republics and "It took > 100 years before France settled down to being a republic-- so much for the > speed and efficacy of revolutions," you write. And who told you dear Sonia > that 'revolutions' happen over night and end when a country "settles down to > being a republic"? Who was it who said "Boy, its a long revolution!" ? The > template shall run long, through endless cycles and spirals...who knows how > long... > But those who are for Revolution shall keep working for it through confusions, > through chaos, through anarchy...  > > What matters is that you are clear on which side you are; other things come > afterwards. > > Kashmiris need first to be clear about what they want. And let me tell you, > people who can't throw a stone in the name of freedom, can't sleep empty > stomach, can't bear the chaos and confusion of this onward march towards mere > political freedom don't deserve it! Revolution is another country Sonia ji. > > Now, let us come to the long piece that you have taken the trouble to post > again on the Sarai List. I t-read each and every line and lo and behold! it > turns out to be a PP(propaganda piece)! I pity the guy who wrote it. This guy > is not for the freedom of Kashmiri people, not to speak of revolution. He > hasn't been able to make up his mind yet. I am pretty sure. However, the > narration did one thing for me: it reminded me of India's march towards > political freedom. There were so many factions, violent, non-violent, > moderate, militant; so many things were going on simultaneously. So lets not > believe that Gandhi marched India towards political freedom and all the people > followed him in a single file. Many a bitter struggle were fought over > leadership of Congress, there were times when there seemed no leader in > charge, and anarchy ruled the hydra-headed freedom movement if there was > (only) one. And then the happening of many things simultaneously, the pressure > for which was building all along, resulted in India's political freedom. India > gained its independence and yet lost its revolution which hadn't even properly > begun. The idea of independence is the most potent tool in the hands of ruling > class to put the idea of revolution to sleep. The people are made to believe > that 'independence' and 'revolution' are coterminus and the hegemony of elites > begins. It takes some time and effort before the people rise up from this > amnesiac sleep in revolt.  >      > Revolutions are inbuilt in the social fabric, its like nature: floods and > storms and cyclones, their algorithms are hardwired into nature's mother > board. And yet, there is something in the nature of 'electron' - the basic > agent of 'revolution' - its uncertainty, seeming anarchy, which dares remould > the circuits of 'revolutions' should they be boobytrapped, viruses hardcoded . > So the Revolution (R) is when r is raised to the power of infinity. And > infinity doesn't take my breath away. > > Blessed [pardon the vocabulary] are the Kashmiri youth whose lives have got > entangled in the cross-hair of revolution. Blessed are they who are born under > a star in turmoil for they shall have their options clear-cut before them. > Blessed are the youth who have a stone to throw for they shall find their > lives worth living and dying for.  > > If they think they deserve freedom they shall get it. I know i am with them, > through chaos, through confusion, through leaderless anarchy. (BTW, anarchy is > not such a bad thing. Its anarchy that keeps hopes alive.)  > > We are with them in their struggle, and we know they are with us in our > struggle. The message was loud and clear in the recently held meeting: OUR > STRUGGLES ARE ONE!  And in this regard it was a historic meeting. > > Kuch baaten bahut seedhi, saaf aur moti hoti hai, unke liye humain Kant, Hegel > aur Marx nahin padhna padta. Its the oxy-moronic 'philosophy of the gross'. > Humari aankhen isi liye bani hain aur microscope isi liye. Both have their > uses. So while looking through the microscope we shouldn't forget that we have > eyes too, and a mind, and to top it all, a heart that perpetually longs for > freedom.  > > Yours sincerely > > PHEETA RAM > >   > From rajkamalgoswami at gmail.com Mon Oct 25 08:09:07 2010 From: rajkamalgoswami at gmail.com (Rajkamal Goswami) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 08:09:07 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Wikileaks and the End of America! In-Reply-To: References: <19A24F3AAB7F4FF182DC8093AA039D60@tara> <844114BCC9DC40AFA72143AF934384C0@tara> Message-ID: You all blind people. May be you needed wikileaks to understand amrika and its policies. most of us didn't have to wait for Mr. Assange's revelations on the www. And seriously most of the arguments that you guys make just sucks. Nothing is radical or balanced. You all are just regular flavor. I don't know why speak when you have nothing new or novel to add. On 10/25/10, Pheeta Ram wrote: > Dear Taraprakash > > Your soft corner for the US of A is revealing. > Now don't give me this bullshit that since some people don't want the US to > leave Iraq the people should start having second thoughts about their dream > of throwing the US out of Iraq. A colonizer however benevolent is still a > colonizer. > > During India's struggle for freedom, there were many people who didn't want > independence and were happy under the British. > Many of them were those who had prospered under the British rule. Though the > transfer of political power to the Indians (elites) have made no difference > yet i take being free from a colonial ruler as a positive thing. > > " Many of us do that, reduce issues to black and white, and take one side." > Now, i firmly believe that this is not the case with many of us. Many of us > are fence-sitters. They remain non-committal to the end. They want to eat > their cake and have it too. Many of us have lost their capacity to reduce > things to black and white. Many of us don't believe in taking one side for > most of us are not sure on which side we are. So its no virtue in deluding > yourself by thinking that many of us reduce the issues to black and white. > The goal must be towards making issues clear (black and white). And if your > goal should be otherwise you can revel in the greyness of the things, in the > aesthetics of deferral. But you can't defer things ad infinitum. A day comes > when you have to take sides, make an ethical choice. Either you are for > HITLER or AGAINST. Either you are for US or against. > > Thank you for quoting Kabir. I am sure Kabir has something profound to say > here but if i commit the heresy to take it very literally i would say its a > good thing if no grain remains sabut between two wheels for then we shall > have flour to feed ourselves. Its metaphoric understanding again brings us > to many people's favorite hobby-horse: violence-nonviolence dyad. So i > rather not tread those paths again. > > However, i am still at loss as to why you have such love lost for America! > America! > > Best > > Pheeta Ram > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Rajkamal From taraprakash at gmail.com Mon Oct 25 09:14:11 2010 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 23:44:11 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Wikileaks and the End of America! References: <19A24F3AAB7F4FF182DC8093AA039D60@tara><844114BCC9DC40AFA72143AF934384C0@tara> Message-ID: <31A9CAC282F3497FBADCA5F9058CA50F@tara> Well, actually it is not only Iraqis there are many Afghanis who don't want US to leave. The leaders of the colonial power are looking for an excuse to leave but some people want to remain "colonized". Let me think why should I have a soft corner for the US. I should say though that I was part of demonstrations in Delhi that happened soon after US invasion of Iraq. I wonder what you say about the regime that the invasion brought down. Wonder where does Saddam and Iraqis stand in your "victim tyrant" "colonizer colonized" binary. So what is in US that we should like about that country? US is one of the best democracies. I just heard a report from France where Jews still are not comfortable identifying as jews, no such problem in US. Muslims are building a mosque just next to World Trade Center, the twin towers which were "destroyed by Muslims" if you ask the majority of Americans. Jwes organizations came in support of the Mosque and Jews and Muslims pray ed together very regularly, not something you see in India or such less democratic country. A guy was about to burn Quran on the 9-11 anniversary. But there was so much public pressure from the "those who hate Islam" that the guy changed his plan. People can speak freely in that country. No one dies of hunger. Or for his faith. IT does involve in arm twisting and can get very lethal some times. But some time it is very magnanimous. There are bullies like you in the US and they are allowed to speak freely. The right wing blogosphere stinks of bull shit, like your emails do. The right wing does not care for political correctness, as you don't. If I am replying to your worthless mail, I probably have soft corner for you. Why not then for the US? Sara Palin is the big celebrity these days in the US, but I hate her more than I hate you. However, I care nothing about you when it comes to US president. I can write volumes praising the democratic values in the US. I do read Chomski often and New York Times is my favorite news paper. Huffington Post is my favorite website for US related news. John Stewart's The Daily Show is my favorite TV show available on Comedy Central. I can write about what's wrong with the US, but your question had nothing to do with the bad part. Long live US and long live the freedom it offers to millions of victims who are victimized in their own countries. I don't think I am going to read any more of your messages sent on this list, much less respond to. My inbox stinks of bull shit as you can't keep your droppings away from the email. You like to offend and not engage. I have no desire to irrigate your ego by getting offended. Try someone else. Best ----- Original Message ----- From: Pheeta Ram To: TaraPrakash Cc: sarai list Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2010 7:46 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Wikileaks and the End of America! Dear Taraprakash Your soft corner for the US of A is revealing. Now don't give me this bullshit that since some people don't want the US to leave Iraq the people should start having second thoughts about their dream of throwing the US out of Iraq. A colonizer however benevolent is still a colonizer. During India's struggle for freedom, there were many people who didn't want independence and were happy under the British. Many of them were those who had prospered under the British rule. Though the transfer of political power to the Indians (elites) have made no difference yet i take being free from a colonial ruler as a positive thing. " Many of us do that, reduce issues to black and white, and take one side." Now, i firmly believe that this is not the case with many of us. Many of us are fence-sitters. They remain non-committal to the end. They want to eat their cake and have it too. Many of us have lost their capacity to reduce things to black and white. Many of us don't believe in taking one side for most of us are not sure on which side we are. So its no virtue in deluding yourself by thinking that many of us reduce the issues to black and white. The goal must be towards making issues clear (black and white). And if your goal should be otherwise you can revel in the greyness of the things, in the aesthetics of deferral. But you can't defer things ad infinitum. A day comes when you have to take sides, make an ethical choice. Either you are for HITLER or AGAINST. Either you are for US or against. Thank you for quoting Kabir. I am sure Kabir has something profound to say here but if i commit the heresy to take it very literally i would say its a good thing if no grain remains sabut between two wheels for then we shall have flour to feed ourselves. Its metaphoric understanding again brings us to many people's favorite hobby-horse: violence-nonviolence dyad. So i rather not tread those paths again. However, i am still at loss as to why you have such love lost for America! America! Best Pheeta Ram From dulali.nag at gmail.com Mon Oct 25 09:15:15 2010 From: dulali.nag at gmail.com (DULALI NAG) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 09:15:15 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Bhooka Nanga Hindustan In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That's an ideal democratic solution. Unfortunately all nation-states have their geo-political interests and stakes and there are other nation-states which have their own geo-political stakes in the state of affairs of the Indian nation-state. That is why it is so difficult to come to an agreement about what the "Kashmiris" want. On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 12:15 PM, V Ramaswamy wrote: > Dear Friends > > The reference to Bhooka Nanga Hindustan in the reports and discussion on > the > Azadi convention in Delhi - > > I have been trying to see and feel the many resonances and ramificiations > of > this. > > Of course Hindustan is Bhooka Nanga. So where does any Hindustani stand? > > I have also been reminded of the events in Iran, 30 odd years ago, with the > return of Ayatollah Khomeni. > > It is for Kashmiris to decide what kind of future they want, how to secure > and safeguard their freedoms, and have the opportunities for advancement. > > The Indian state keeps saying Kashmir is an integral part of India. The > political parties all seem to function on the assumption that the people of > India will not accept anything other than this, and accuse one another of > being "soft". So it seems a protracted struggle and battle is inevitable, > with perpetual and mounting bloodshed. > > Maybe if the people of India felt that Kashmiris should have the right to > self determination, then the political parties would be bound to follow the > people's verdict. > > My hunch is that if a hyothetical survey was undertaken in India, the vast > majority would be indifferent / igorant, followed by a vocal minority that > said Kashmir had be in India, and a not insignificant proprotion saying > Kashmiris have the right to self-determination. > > So if we want to stop the bloodshed in Kashmir - and the destruction of > public resources in securing Kashmir for India - then educating the Indian > public on the Kashmiris' right to self-determination, and the need for > peace > and development in Kashmir and India seems the most effective path. That > would also remove what the state of Pakistan has consistently said is the > single issue between India and Pakistan. > > Sincerely > > V Ramaswamy > Calcutta > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pheeta.ram at gmail.com Mon Oct 25 09:33:15 2010 From: pheeta.ram at gmail.com (Pheeta Ram) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 09:33:15 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Wikileaks and the End of America! In-Reply-To: <31A9CAC282F3497FBADCA5F9058CA50F@tara> References: <19A24F3AAB7F4FF182DC8093AA039D60@tara> <844114BCC9DC40AFA72143AF934384C0@tara> <31A9CAC282F3497FBADCA5F9058CA50F@tara> Message-ID: :) On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 9:14 AM, TaraPrakash wrote: > Well, actually it is not only Iraqis there are many Afghanis who don't > want US to leave. The leaders of the colonial power are looking for an > excuse to leave but some people want to remain "colonized". > > Let me think why should I have a soft corner for the US. I should say > though that I was part of demonstrations in Delhi that happened soon after > US invasion of Iraq. I wonder what you say about the regime that the > invasion brought down. Wonder where does Saddam and Iraqis stand in your > "victim tyrant" "colonizer colonized" binary. > > So what is in US that we should like about that country? US is one of the > best democracies. I just heard a report from France where Jews still are not > comfortable identifying as jews, no such problem in US. Muslims are building > a mosque just next to World Trade Center, the twin towers which were > "destroyed by Muslims" if you ask the majority of Americans. Jwes > organizations came in support of the Mosque and Jews and Muslims pray ed > together very regularly, not something you see in India or such less > democratic country. A guy was about to burn Quran on the 9-11 anniversary. > But there was so much public pressure from the "those who hate Islam" that > the guy changed his plan. > > People can speak freely in that country. No one dies of hunger. Or for his > faith. IT does involve in arm twisting and can get very lethal some times. > But some time it is very magnanimous. There are bullies like you in the US > and they are allowed to speak freely. The right wing blogosphere stinks of > bull shit, like your emails do. The right wing does not care for political > correctness, as you don't. If I am replying to your worthless mail, I > probably have soft corner for you. Why not then for the US? Sara Palin is > the big celebrity these days in the US, but I hate her more than I hate you. > However, I care nothing about you when it comes to US president. > > > I can write volumes praising the democratic values in the US. I do read > Chomski often and New York Times is my favorite news paper. Huffington Post > is my favorite website for US related news. John Stewart's The Daily Show is > my favorite TV show available on Comedy Central. I can write about what's > wrong with the US, but your question had nothing to do with the bad part. > Long live US and long live the freedom it offers to millions of victims who > are victimized in their own countries. > > I don't think I am going to read any more of your messages sent on this > list, much less respond to. My inbox stinks of bull shit as you can't keep > your droppings away from the email. You like to offend and not engage. I > have no desire to irrigate your ego by getting offended. Try someone else. > > > Best > > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Pheeta Ram > *To:* TaraPrakash > *Cc:* sarai list > *Sent:* Sunday, October 24, 2010 7:46 PM > *Subject:* Re: [Reader-list] Wikileaks and the End of America! > > Dear Taraprakash > > Your soft corner for the US of A is revealing. > Now don't give me this bullshit that since some people don't want the US to > leave Iraq the people should start having second thoughts about their dream > of throwing the US out of Iraq. A colonizer however benevolent is still a > colonizer. > > During India's struggle for freedom, there were many people who didn't want > independence and were happy under the British. > Many of them were those who had prospered under the British rule. Though > the transfer of political power to the Indians (elites) have made no > difference yet i take being free from a colonial ruler as a positive thing. > > " Many of us do that, reduce issues to black and white, and take one > side." Now, i firmly believe that this is not the case with many of us. Many > of us are fence-sitters. They remain non-committal to the end. They want to > eat their cake and have it too. Many of us have lost their capacity to > reduce things to black and white. Many of us don't believe in taking one > side for most of us are not sure on which side we are. So its no virtue in > deluding yourself by thinking that many of us reduce the issues to black and > white. The goal must be towards making issues clear (black and white). And > if your goal should be otherwise you can revel in the greyness of the > things, in the aesthetics of deferral. But you can't defer things ad > infinitum. A day comes when you have to take sides, make an ethical choice. > Either you are for HITLER or AGAINST. Either you are for US or against. > > Thank you for quoting Kabir. I am sure Kabir has something profound to say > here but if i commit the heresy to take it very literally i would say its a > good thing if no grain remains sabut between two wheels for then we shall > have flour to feed ourselves. Its metaphoric understanding again brings us > to many people's favorite hobby-horse: violence-nonviolence dyad. So i > rather not tread those paths again. > > However, i am still at loss as to why you have such love lost for America! > America! > > Best > > Pheeta Ram > > > > From sonia.jabbar at gmail.com Mon Oct 25 09:53:07 2010 From: sonia.jabbar at gmail.com (SJabbar) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 09:53:07 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?iso-8859-1?q?Azadi=3A_The_Only_Way_=AD_Report_fro?= =?iso-8859-1?q?m_a_Turbulent_Few_Hours_in_Delhi?= In-Reply-To: <396803BD-1817-401A-A79C-EBD17F7E1AF5@sarai.net> Message-ID: Dear Shuddha, I think our differences have narrowed considerably as you continue to clarify your position. Reading between your lines, you seem to think that I have a problem with your engaging with Mr. Geelani or that the problem was your sharing a stage with him. I do not not. In politics there are no pariahs. If someone represents a constituency-- no matter how marginal-- that is part of the social fabric you cannot ignore it. It may surprise you and many on this list to know that Mr. Geelani and I have known each other since 1997 and have extremely frank and cordial relations. My problem was with the language of your report of the meeting where your enthusiasm (“tallest separatist leader,” he is “NOT against dialogue,” “all that they are asking for is the Right to self-determination”) masked a political reality that was far more complex and brutal. However, you have since clarified that you do not endorse Mr. Geelani’s politics and you concede that he may well have been playing to audiences in Delhi, bringing us more or less on the same page except that past experience has made me less likely to share your belief that someone like Mr. Geelani can be “USED” or that you can “compel them to come to a degree of moderation in action, and a greater, more imaginative radicalism in terms of conceptions.” I am glad you agree that people and groups, state and non-state actors who have committed crimes must stand trial and justice must be done, whether it is SAS Geelani, Yasin Malik, Syed Salahuddin or various army generals who have presided over rights abuses while they served in J&K. I have in this forum written of a Truth & Reconciliation Commission modeled on the South African experience that should follow the final settlement on J&K. I am also glad that you agree with my point of the futility of creating a new nation-state in the form of an independent Kashmir ( “I am not for the moment saying and have never said that an independent Kashmir will be in any way a qualitative improvement (in terms of a state form) than an occupied Kashmir,”). But you seem to believe that it is necessary because “ It may at least lead to the withdrawal of the reality of a brutal occupation.” By this I assume your vision of regime change means replacing one democratic republic with another democratic republic and not an Islamic republic or a military state. In which case “the reality of a brutal occupation” must mean the withdrawal of hundreds of thousands of uniformed men in J&K. But do you really need to create a new nation-state in order to demilitarize Kashmir? >From 1947 to 1989 India’s military presence was restricted to the borders and to the few garrisons of Srinagar, Baramulla, Leh, Udhampur and Poonch. Between 1989- 1992 India was being seriously challenged on the military front by thousands of Kashmiri militants and Islamist mujahideen. The troop surge only happened only around 1992-93 and the Indian military was only able to control the situation around 1995. In 1996 the situation was such that it was the first time in 6 years it was possible to hold elections and yet then as in 2002 there were hundreds of assassinations of political candidates and ordinary workers of political parties (the right to self-determination is never extended to this group). Anyway, my point is that 500,000 or 700,000 troops were not there as a permanent fixture since 1947 and the ‘most militarized place in the world’ was not always so. It is both desirable and possible to withdraw troops and it should be done in a phased manner. Though I have been vocal in advocating this since 2001, sadly, I believe it will be linked to the final settlement and will not happen before because of the many sleeper cells of militants that get activated the moment there is peace or at least as they say ‘normalcy’— as we have seen in last week’s encounter between troops and the JeM in Srinagar. BTW Srinagar district was one of the districts being examined for the revocation of the Disturbed Areas Act. This encounter will make it extremely difficult for the state government to do so. I am glad you agree with me that the 4-point formula can be a solution to the vexed Kashmir issue, however your reading of what went wrong and putting the onus of the failure of implementation squarely on New Delhi’s shoulder is wrong. Yes, there were delays on New Delhi’s side, but those were not remarkable considering a political consensus had to be built within the country (I think it was in 2008 during the Amarnath Yatra that I explained the entire process at length in this forum). Very simply what happened was that the Lawyer’s Movement in Pakistan overtook the Kashmir process and once Mushrraf was ousted and Benazir was assassinated the country plunged into political turmoil and the Zaradari government was too weak to break from Pakistan’s traditional stand of the UN Resolutions. Both Gen Kayani and the ISI were not comfortable with Musharraf’s radical departure from tradition. Both believe Pakistan’s best interests are served by keeping the Kashmir pot boiling, maintaining India as ‘enemy no 1’, encouraging extremism in Afghanistan to maintain ‘strategic depth,’ and to scuttle any influence India may wield in Afghanistan. So, as much as I and many others would like to see the 4-point formula being at least discussed, under the present Pakistani dispensation it is highly unlikely. When you advocate a plebiscite and you believe that the azadi movement must be peaceful then you must also accommodate the possibility of a partitioned J&K, where large sections of Jammu and all of Ladakh would not vote for Pakistan (and under what UN Resolution would the option of independence be granted since NO UN Resolution holds that option and no Kashmiri to date has appealed to the UN to pass a resolution to include the option?) And how would you persuade Pakistan to allow a plebiscite in areas under their control? And what is your opinion of the vast region of Gilgit-Baltistan that by Pakistani law has been severed from the state of Jammu & Kashmir and where its citizens have NO fundamental rights as its constitutional status has not as yet been determined? I am asking these questions not to score points but for us to locate what is moral or desirable within what is real and possible not just for Kashmiris who are but a small part of the state, but of all the people of Jammu & Kashmir. Best, Sonia > > > > My question is, what do we do next. I think that this means that the people > 'learn' to USE them, to compel them to come to a degree of moderation in > action, and a greater, more imaginative radicalism in terms of conceptions. > That is why, the current situation in Kashmir, where the 'Leaders' are being > 'Led' by people is interesting to me. I find it POSITIVE that they have to do > flip-flops so often, from Hartal-to-No Hartal- to Hartal again. This shows > that they are NOT running the street. Things are unpredictable. The change in > the 'temperature' of SAS Geelani's statements may be as much due to the fact > that he is no longer in a position to call all the shots. Therefore, he has > less to lose by 'changing' his tenor. > > There is a way in which the language of politics has changed, and it has > changed because of the way in which people are communicating on all sorts of > fora. Though they may, out of affection, still say that only Geelani will do > the Tarjumani, the truth is, everyone is doing their own Tarjumani now. and > that is the hardest nut for the Government of India to crack. As an anarchist, > I find this situation, of the actual, concrete, refusal of 'representational > forms of politics' . however ephemeral it might be at present, quite > delightful. SO much so, that a 'theatre' of leadership continues, but > actuality presumes a totally different language of politics. > > I find this a fertile situation, one latent with possibilities, for everyone. > > As for your other point, about how close we all were to the beginnings of the > long road towards a solution with Musharraf's four point formula - I agree > with you. But, then, it was the Government of India that scuttled that > possibility. If the government of India had acted then, on what was on offer, > perhaps things would not have come to the situation where they are at present. > Too much has gone wrong since then. I am not a nationalist of any sort, and to > me, ALL nation states, and all nation states in waiting, are ultimately the > actors of the tragedies of their own making and choosing, > So, basically, I am not for the moment saying and have never said that an > independent Kashmir will be in any way a qualitative improvement (in terms of > a state form) than an occupied Kashmir, but, It may at least lead to the > withdrawal of the reality of a brutal occupation. > > For me, whatever makes that possible, I am prepared to accept. There were, and > remain many possibilities that span the spectrum from where the situation is > at present to Indpendence or accession to Pakistan. But thinking about those > possibilities require all Indians to stop thinking only out of the Indian > nationalist box. You know very well, that many different kinds of arrangement > could have been explored. including maximum autonomy under the aegis of a > joint India-Pakistan guarantee, which is what I understand the Musharraf > formula to have been, But the bottom line is, whatever is worked out has to be > acceptable to the popular will, hence a plebiscite with many options on offer, > and the freedom to campaign for the many options in an atomsphere free of > coercion. > > Realistically speaking, I do not think that the Government of India has the > imagination any longer to try and think out of the box. If it can, that would > be great. But, going by the ostrich like attitude of the Government in the > face of the obvious alienation of the Kashmiri people, I very much doubt it. > If they had that intelligence, they could have stopped the killings by the > security forces a long time ago. > > Therefore, the only remaining possibility for ending the occupation seems to > me to be independence for Kashmir, in the short term, under the custodianship > of the United Nations, like happened in Kosovo.Of course, I strongly assert > that the political road to this must be through non-violent means, through > mass political participation, of as many different sections of the population > as possible. It will be painful, for many Indians to accept, but in the long > term, and in the absence of any other imaginative solutions thought through by > the Indian political elites (that chance has come, and sadly, gone) it will be > in the best interests of the people of India. Of course, the challenge for the > people of Kashmir would be to think through a vision of independence that does > not have them switch slavery to Indian occupation to slavery to the Pakistani > militarist elite. The challenge would be to come up with proposals for a > demilitarized, non-aggressive Kashmir that can preserve its cultural and > social openness and liberality, that can take back displaced minorities, and > can offer them genuine, not token safety and security. That is the hard work > that imaginative politics will have to undertake in Kashmir. And we should > never stop expecting and demanding that from all our Kashmiri friends. I > never, ever cease doing so. > > In the long term, this fact, an Independent Kashmir, could actually be the > cornerstone of a broad South Asian Union (modelled on the EU) which could > bring the different nationalities (there may be many by then) of South Asia > under an arrangement of a free trade zone, a visa free zone, a customs and > tarrifs union, a charter on shared ecological concerns, and comprehensive > demilitarization. An independent Kashmir may be the first step in that > direction. Of course this need not happen. Things could get worse if Kashmir > separates. I am well aware and cognizant of that possibility. But, at least, > once the dust and din settles, in our lifetime, there is a likelihood that > once everyone has climbed off their nationalist high horses, things might be > worked out, amicably and reasonably between all the stake holders of a future > free association of South Asian States and Territories. That, I think is the > only guarantee for peace in our region. I know for certain that an India and > Pakistan that continue to hold on to their respective fragments of Jammu and > Kashmir, and an India that enforces that occupation by military force cannot > contribute to peace in the region. > > That is why, I think that freedom for Kashmir, and also, incidentally for > Tibet, is key to long term peace and stability in Asia, because both these > developments would reduce the necessity of the big poweres of tomorrow - China > and India and to a lesser extent - Pakistan from being aggressive nuclear > powered rivals, and would perhaps, perhaps, open out the true possibility of > what a worthwhile Asian Century really ought to be like. Otherwise, I am > afraid that we will replay the disasters of the European history of the > Twentieth Century, from the First World War onwards, on the soil of Twenty > First Century Asia. > > > I hope i have made myself clear > > best, > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > On 23-Oct-10, at 7:45 PM, SJabbar wrote: > >> Sorry for cross-posting but I sent this message out in the morning as a >> response to Shuddha¹s 2nd post but received an automated email saying my >> post had to be reviewed by the moderator. Since I haven¹t received a >> response (Monica??!) I assume it was not approved or got lost in the vast >> belly of the Sarai computer! >> ------------------------------------- >> >> >> Shuddha, let us take your arguments and apply them to the other side. Modi >> belongs to a political party that was in power and he was at the helm when >> the 2002 Gujarat carnage took place. He may not have explicitly directed it >> but he certainly presided over the violence. What Modi is like as a person, >> whether he is gentle, cultured, cries at the funeral of his friends or his >> rivals are of no concern to me (It is well known that Goebbels was a >> cultured man and had a refined taste in music and the arts and of course >> Jinnah ate ham sandwiches). What matters to me is that the man presided over >> the worst kind of violence and has refused to, till date, condemn it >> unambiguously. Instead he and his party continue to cite the economic >> progress of Muslims in Gujarat to counter it. The subtext of this‹ and this >> is a South Asian disease‹ is let us forget the past, galtiyan dono taraf se >> huin hain (³action-reaction²), and let us move on. Whether it is the >> various political parties in India who have incited, controlled and presided >> over the worst communal or sectarian violence from the 1930¹s to the present >> day, or the Pakistani army role in the mass rapes of Bangladesh or the Sri >> Lankan army¹s role against Tamil civilians, every political party in these >> countries seem to be inflicted by the same disease. >> Having said that, I believe it is the role of civil society to be vigilant, >> to be rigorous, to not succumb to the same logic. >> >> I know that you have been critical of fundamentalist politics in this forum >> and others, whether it is Hindutva or Islamist and that is why it surprised >> me to read your post on the LTG event. You say ³You may be right when you >> say that SAS Geelani may be saying one thing in Delhi and another in >> Srinagar. I am not here to judge the sincerity, or lack of, or ambiguity, >> of these statements.² Why are you not here to judge the sincerity or lack >> thereof of these statements? Surely, one is always judging political >> parties when they claim one or another thing? How does one align oneself >> politically if one goes simply by manifestos and not by actions? Judging >> and evaluating is a constant process. Mamta Bannerjee may have been one >> thing as a member of the opposition but how will she be when she comes to >> power? One reads her statements, one watches carefully her actions >> following her statements. If they don¹t gel, we believe her to be >> insincere. >> >> You write: ³I am amazed that this recognition is not getting the space I >> think it deserves, simply as a NEWS story. ³ Do you remember Atal Behari >> Vajpayee shed tears after the demolition of the Babri Masjid and Advani >> described it as ³the saddest day of his life.² Should these isolated moments >> and statements be highlighted and privileged as representing the 2 men¹s >> position on the Babri Masjid or should one judge them over a longer period >> of time, weighing their statements and their actions? >> >> As for Mr. Geelani and evaluating his actions, do you believe a responsible >> leader ought to lead from the front or give calls to his followers to engage >> in actions that will cause injury or even death from the safety of his home? >> Mr. Geelani is fully aware that in any part of this planet if you pelt >> stones at a man with a gun, there is a fair chance that the man with the gun >> is going to retaliate. When he was released from jail he made a fine >> statement calling for the end of the hartaal calendar, saying that this was >> not the way forward, that these protests could not be sustained, that life >> could not come to a standstill (btw, the Sopore fruit mandi, his >> constituency, continued to function through this entire period hartaal >> calendar or not). These were wise words from a man who has been in politics >> for years. Wise words or the thinking of the ISI, I¹m not sure because the >> words were echoed by Syed Salahuddin. What follows is interesting: >> Salahuddin¹s effigy is burnt and a rumour is floated that Mr. Geelani is >> selling out to Omar Abdullah. Does Mr. Geelani stand by his words? Does he >> do what Gandhi does after Chauri Chaura? No, of course not. He does a >> total U-turn and starts competing with Masrat Alam on the calendars, >> subjecting the people of the valley to more misery. What do ordinary >> Kashmiris feel about the continuation of this absurd form of protest where >> they and not the Government of India suffer? You may find the answer in the >> fact that there was not a single protest when Masrat Alam was arrested. >> >> Again Mr. Geelani saying he Œpersonally¹ favours the accession to Pakistan >> but will Œabide by¹ what the people of J&K want is neither here nor there. >> What you see as a maturing position may be read as an opportunistic one >> until such time as it is tested. As I have already shown in my last post >> Mr. Geelani, his political party and his ideology have since the mid-90¹s >> shown no such respectful accommodation of the political views of others. In >> fact any divergence from this view has been silenced by the bullet. If this >> is someone¹s history‹ and as much as I should wish it otherwise-- it is >> very, very difficult for me to suspend my cynicism and turn enthusiastic >> cartwheels on the basis of one speech to a select audience in New Delhi. >> >> With reference to your point about borders: The GoI acknowledges that >> Kashmir is an ³issue² between India and Pakistan. As I have mentioned in my >> first post, it objects to the word ³dispute² as it internationalizes >> Kashmir, ignores the Simla Agreement and takes it out of the domain of >> bilateral talks back to the UN. If you want my personal opinion on this >> (and I have argued on this list in the past), I agree with this stand. I >> see the UN as a forum where, sadly, world powers have always manipulated >> nations and it certainly does not have the moral standing after Iraq and >> Afghanistan to really mediate anywhere in the world. India and Pakistan >> need to, and can settle the issue taking into account the wishes of all the >> people of J&K as it stood in 1947. As I have argued in the past and as >> Gen.Musharraf recently said on an NDTV interview that India and Pakistan >> were very close to drafting an agreement based on his 4-point formula. >> Interestingly, various interpretations of this 4-point formula were thrown >> up by all shades of political parties but there was a broad consensus on >> this whether from the mainstream groups or the separatists. The only leader >> that rejected this was Mr. Geelani who insisted that the Kashmir ³dispute² >> be solved on the UN Resolutions of 1948! >> >> As for borders themselves: what is Europe today but a borderless continent? >> You critique the idea of the nation-state and yet you want to re-invent the >> wheel by supporting yet another nation-state in independent Kashmir. Why, >> when a 21st c. solution in the 4-point formula, similar to the form and >> content of the EU, could be in the making? >> >> Best wishes, >> Sonia >> >> >> >> On 22/10/10 8:10 PM, "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" wrote: >> >> >>> Dear Sonia, (don't worry Pawan, its a lot less than '3000 lines') >>> >>> I said - " I do not agree with much of what Geelani Saheb represents >>> politically, or ideologically, but I have no hesitation in saying that what >>> he >>> said yesterday, was surprising for its gentleness, for its consideration, >>> for >>> its moderation, even for its liberality and open heartedness." >>> >>> What part of this sentence seems to suggest that I am 'aligning' with SAS >>> Geelani. The 'I do not agree with much' does not seem to indicate alignment, >>> or endorsement to me. The rest of the statement is a statement of fact. Were >>> SAS Geelani to have said words that were inflammatory yesterday, I would not >>> have hesitated to said that he had. Allow me to elaborate by way of an >>> example >>> - I have never been in agreement with the political philosophy of >>> M.K.Gandhi, >>> but I never make the mistake of saying that my disagreement with Gandhi (my >>> refusal to endorse Gandhian ideology and what it means politically) amounts >>> to >>> my failure to recognize Gandhi's gentleness, his consideration, his >>> moderation, his liberality and its open heartedness. >>> >>> I have been strongly critical Islamist politics, including on this forum, >>> whenever I have considered it necessary to do so. That is one thing, and it >>> is >>> where I would differ from SAS Geelani, explicitly, categorically, unless he >>> makes a statement, like the Mirwaiz did recently, abjuring an 'Islamist >>> future >>> for Kashmir'. But to say that SAS Geelani has never expressed regret for the >>> violence that rocked even the pro-Azadi camp from within is specious. >>> Kashmiri >>> polticians of all hues routinely issue condemnations of incidents of >>> terrorism, and targetted assasinations. Geelani, to my knowledge, has not >>> been >>> any exception. Eyewitnesses speak of seeing him weeping at Abdul Ghani >>> Lone's >>> funeral. I do not know, nor do I care, whether these tears were genuine. All >>> I >>> am saying is that if the man has not said that he celebrates the assasins of >>> the elder Mirwaiz, or Abdul Ghani Lone, or the attacks on Dr. Shameema that >>> you mention, then, it is unfair to accuse him of 'Not Saying' the 'not >>> saying'. He condemns assasinations. He does not celebrate the assasin. This >>> means that he cannot be accused of being the source of the assasination, >>> unless other concrete evidence is brought to bear upon the case. >>> >>> You may be right when you say that SAS Geelani may be saying one thing in >>> Delhi and another in Srinagar. I am not here to judge the sincerity, or >>> lack >>> of, or ambiguity, of these statements. I think politically, the significant >>> thing is that whatever he may have said in the past, SAS Geelani, HAS to >>> speak >>> a language today that is not secterian. He may have done so in the past. Let >>> us remember that he was an elected member of the J&K assembly for more than >>> one term in the past, and that means he had to swear fealty of some sort to >>> the Indian constitution. Judging by this, we should be able to evaluate his >>> 'Islamist' commitments in the light of his sometime loyalty to an apparently >>> secular constitution. If the sake of argument, we say that we should take >>> seriously what came 'after' as representing the 'maturing' of his position, >>> then, if his avowedly 'secterian' / Islamist / Pro-Pakistan phase came after >>> his phase as an MLA of the J&K assembly, then, so too has this 'current' >>> phase >>> come 'after' his secterian posturing. I am not the one who needs to split >>> these hairs, but clearly, if some emphasis is bieng given to chronology as a >>> way of attributing the man's politics to the man's biography, then let's >>> stay >>> consistent, and say, that if the current SAS Geelani is saying things that >>> don't seem to require the automatic assumption of an Isamic state (which is >>> what we would expect from the 'old' Geelani, then, we have every reason to >>> take it as seriously as when he made his decision to abandon 'mainstream' >>> electoral politics in Jammu and Kashmir for the hardline fringe. >>> >>> Indeed, I would go so far as to say that as far as we are concerned, we >>> should >>> assume, and hold him, and his followers, responsible to the Œevolution¹ of >>> their statements, as they occur. If he goes back on the broad, liberal >>> nature >>> of a vision for Azad kashmir (which, incidentally, among other things, >>> included the somewhat whimsical detail of a provision of compensation for >>> damages were a believing Muslim to damage a bottle of alchohl of a >>> non-believer), then, we should hold him responsible for that regression. He >>> made a speech that was refreshingly free of Islamist rhetoric yesterday, >>> that >>> spoke in the broad terms of 'Insaaniyat' - Humanity. If Atal Behari Vajpayee >>> can be appreciated, as indeed he should have been, for speaking in terms of >>> 'Insaaniyat' when it came to thinking about the solution to the question of >>> Jammu and Kashmir, why could the mainstream media not pick up the fact that >>> at >>> least in stated terms, SAS Geelani was making as major a move, by invoking >>> 'Insaaniyat' over secterian considerations, exactly as Vajpayee had done. >>> Recognizing this does not require us to align with, or endorse, either SAS >>> Geelani, or Atal Behari Vajpayee, it simply requires us to register a fact >>> that a major move is in process. That politics is being transformed, even as >>> we speak. I am amazed that this recognition is being painted as 'alignment, >>> or >>> endorsement'. I am amazed that this recognition is not getting the space I >>> think it deserves, simply as a NEWS story. SAS Geelani says he wishes India >>> to >>> be a strong country, a regional power, that he supports (in principle) a >>> future permanent place for India on the United Natons Security Council, once >>> Kashmir is liberated - in other words, he is saying, let us go, and we >>> will >>> stand with you, dont you think this is BIG news. That is what I was trying >>> to >>> talk about. Trying to talk about does not make me a camp follower of SAS >>> Geelani or any other politician, in India, Kashmir, or elsewhere. >>> >>> My sense is, the movement for Azadi in Kashmir has gone beyond the persona >>> of >>> SAS Geelani, and while he is universally respected for his integrity and >>> incorruptability, his word is by no means, Œlaw¹. He, and other leaders like >>> him, are being Œled¹ as much as they are Œleading¹ the people they claim to >>> represent. Part of this process means giving up the secterian rhetoric that >>> people in Kashmir genuinely feel alienated by. We should welcome this >>> development. >>> >>> Now, I come to the views that he holds regarding independence and merger >>> with >>> Pakistan. He has said, including in his recent interview with Seema Mustafa >>> that he PERSONALLY prefers accession to Pakistan, but that he is willing to >>> abide by whatever the people of Jammu and Kashmir decide. I do not think >>> that >>> the people of Jammu and Kashmir have a future with Pakistan.So, I disagree >>> with SAS Geelani's personal view. I strongly argue for a demilitarized, >>> independent, secular Jammu and Kashmir. That makes me someone who does not >>> endorse SAS Geelani's position. Let's look at thigns this way, had this been >>> 1935, I would probably have not been in agreement with M.K. Gandhi's vision >>> of >>> what he thought the future of South Asia and India ought to be. But that >>> does >>> not mean that I would dismiss Gandhi as irrelevant, or someone to be mocked >>> and reviled. I would engage with him politicially, as many currents in India >>> at that time did. They were not uncritical of Gandhi (from the left and the >>> right) but they knew that Gandhi's voice had a certain resonance. I think >>> that >>> the attitude that people have towards SAS Geelani is not dissimilar. They >>> may >>> not agree with him on many counts, and most Kashmiris that I know personally >>> would fit that description. But none would want to dismiss or demonize him. >>> Primarily because of his unwillingness to be an occasional pawn in the hands >>> of the occupation. >>> >>> I have yet to come across an Indian politician who is willing to say, on >>> the >>> record, that he PERSONALLY prefers that Jammu and Kashmir stay with India, >>> but >>> will respect whatever the people of Jammu and Kashmir decide in a free and >>> fair plebiscite. If that were to be the case, then we would get much further >>> than where we are today in Kashmir. I have no quarrel with those who want >>> Kashmir to stay in India. Theirs is a point of view. It needs to be freely >>> heard, freely debated, and if is convincing to the people of Jammu and >>> Kashmir, best of luck to those who carry the day. What I am against is >>> maintaining Jammu and Kashmir as parts of the Indian Union by force. By >>> violence. By occupation. >>> >>> Finally, I come to the five points, and whether or not, sticking to the >>> point >>> about Kashmir being disputed is an obstacle. Lets face facts. Kashmir is a >>> dispute. Every single map of the world that is not printed in India shows >>> it, >>> visually, as a disputed territory. That is why the Government of India has >>> to >>> put its silly ink stamp on atlases. That is why there is a United Nations >>> Observer group in Delhi, Islamabad and Srinagar. United Nations observers >>> are >>> present, in the same way, in say Cyprus (another dispute) Israel / >>> Palestine, >>> another dispute. What is the big deal in saying, yes, it is a dispute. Will >>> India disappear if the public secret is admitted to? As far as I am >>> concerned >>> borders, and sovereignty, are less important than the lives of people. If >>> discussing a border, and what it means, can be a method to save lives, then >>> refusing to do so, is a crime. The Government of India can offer to >>> 'discuss' >>> - sovereignty over those areas of the India-Tibet border that were taken by >>> force majeure by British Imperial power, but it will sacrifice the lives of >>> hundreds of thousands of people in order to keep the fetish of the Indian >>> Union's soveriegnty and integrity alive in the case of Jammu and Kashmir. >>> This policy seems to me to be totally criminal and misguided. >>> >>> Borders are made by human beings, and can be changed by human beings. The >>> geographical expression of the Union of India is not divinely ordained. >>> Sensible people all over the world, understand that maps can change, and >>> that >>> they do change. We hope that the map of China can someday be drawn in >>> Chinese >>> school text books without engulfing Tibet. If that can be a reasonable >>> desire, >>> and not be seen as an 'obstruction', why should a similar desire be seen as >>> an >>> obstruction in the case of India and Jammu and Kashmir. Arnab Goswami >>> repeatedly used the word 'splittist' yestyerday to refer to all those who >>> were >>> speaking at the meeting at the LTG yesterday. A word that is used by the >>> Chinese government and the Chinese Communist Party whenever it refers to the >>> Dalai Lama and the movement for a free Tibet. Are we (our government, >>> sections >>> of our media) aping the Chinese government and the behemoth of the Chinese >>> Communist Party in aligning and endorsing ourselves with the fetish of a man >>> made fiction of sovereignty. I should hope that we can do better than that. >>> >>> best regards, >>> >>> Shuddha >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe >> in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >> Raqs Media Collective >> shuddha at sarai.net >> www.sarai.net >> www.raqsmediacollective.net >> >> >> >> From nc-agricowi at netcologne.de Mon Oct 25 14:16:43 2010 From: nc-agricowi at netcologne.de (artNET) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 10:46:43 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] =?iso-8859-1?q?Program_-_Week_44__on_NewMediaFest?= =?iso-8859-1?q?=272010?= Message-ID: <20101025104644.E9152A35.78DDAB0E@192.168.0.3> NewMediaFest'2010 -------------------------------- Program - week 44 --> 25-31 October 2010 http://2010.newmediafest.org/?p=1118 -------------------------------- 1. -------------------------------- Feature of the week 44 http://2010.newmediafest.org/?p=1114 JavaMuseum is featuring on "Celebrate!" this week three new exciting Internet based works "My Avatar is Your Avatar" by Calin Man (Romania) "CycleScope" by Tamar Schori & Oded Perry (Israel) "ColourFields" by Lisa Cianci (Australia) -------------------------------- 2 -------------------------------- VideoChannel Cologne proudly presents Feature of the Month October 2010 http://2010.newmediafest.org/?p=1084 proudly present Videoart from Croatia curated by Wilfried Agricola de Cologne (artvideoKOELN) featuring videos by 15 Croatian video artists --> Dario Bardic, Ana Bilankov, Adam Dragojevic' Silvana Dunat, Darko Fritz, Zeljka Fuderer Levak Miranda Herceg, Toni Mestrovic, Ana Opalic Filip Peruzovic, Davor Sanvincenti, Martina Skender Bruna Tomsic', Sonja VUK, Andrea Zrno -------------------------------- 3. -------------------------------- Feature of the Month Sept-Oct 2010 http://2010.newmediafest.org/?p=1017 SoundLAB VII - soundCELEBRATION was releasing on 1 September 2010, the 7th edition of SoundLAB in sequence since 2004, celebrating soundart at it's best on occasion of the 10th anniversáry of [NewMediaArtProjectNetwork]||cologne as the highlight of 7 years promoting soundart as a creative form of digital art. -------------------------------- NewMediaFest'2010 10 Years [NewMediaArtProjectNetwork]:||cologne global heritage of digital culture 1 January - 31 December 2010 http://2010.newmediafest.org director and chief curator: Wilfried Agricola de Cologne 2010 [at] newmediafest.org --------------------------------------- From javedmasoo at gmail.com Mon Oct 25 20:05:14 2010 From: javedmasoo at gmail.com (Javed) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 20:05:14 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Press conference: The Truth about David Headley Message-ID: You are invited to a PRESS CONFERENCE on THE TRUTH ABOUT DAVID HEADLEY: IS HE A CIA-FBI AGENT? Venue: Constitution Club, New Delhi (Board Room, ground floor) Date: Tuesday, 26 October 2010 – time: 3 p.m. SPEAKERS: Feroze Mithiborwala (National President, BHARAT BACHAO ANDOLAN) Gopal Rai (National Organizer, TEESRA SWADHINTA ANDOLAN) Com. Ramchandran (Gen. Secy., CPI-ML) Anand Swarup Verma (Senior Journalist) Dr Taslim Rahmani (President, MUSLIM POLITICAL COUNCIL) 26/11 Truth: There is no doubt today that David Coleman Headley, who played the key role in masterminding the 26/11 terror attack on Mumbai, is a CIA-FBI agent. The recent expose by Sebastian Rotella, a journalist with the ProPublica has blown the whistle. Despite numerous warnings, the FBI-CIA turned a blind eye to Headley's terror & drug smuggling activities. Even though they were monitoring Headley's activities in India & Pakistan, they never divulged the information to the Indian authorities, beyond the bare minimum. Clearly, the dastardly 26/11 terror attack could have been averted if timely information was provided & action taken. Also, astoundingly, the Indian authorities, who lack credible access to Headley beyond what the CIA-FBI would like them to believe, are not taking the required action. Headley should be extradited to India & prosecuted for masterminding the 26/11 terror attack. Our police & the ATS have till date not even filed an FIR or compiled a chargesheet against Headley. In fact, a section of the security apparatus is complicit in the cover up of Headley's tracks in India. Even Headley's statements on the Ishrat Jehan encounter, the Samjhauta Express terror attack as well as the Chittisingpura massacre are basically meant to mislead the investigations & protect the true terrorists within our country. The people of India are beginning to see through this cover-up & the difficult questions that need to be asked & the answers thus sought, are now emerging from various quarters. This press conference is to address this issue related to the very security & sovereignty of our nation. From: FEROZE MITHIBORWALA National President, BHARAT BACHAO ANDOLAN (Mumbai) Mobile: 98208-97517 ; email: feroze.moses777 at gmail.com DR TASLEEM RAHMANI President, Muslim Political Council (New Delhi) Mobile: 93501-04083 ; email: drrehmani at hotmail.com From adityarajbaul at gmail.com Tue Oct 26 14:04:31 2010 From: adityarajbaul at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Baul) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 14:04:31 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?iso-8859-1?q?Azadi=3A_The_Only_Way_=AD_Report_fro?= =?iso-8859-1?q?m_a_Turbulent_Few_Hours_in_Delhi?= In-Reply-To: References: <396803BD-1817-401A-A79C-EBD17F7E1AF5@sarai.net> Message-ID: I like it how Sonia Jabbar wants to hold Kashmir hostage to history - to the histories of India and Pakistan, to the history of what Geelani has or has not done, has or has not said. She does not think history is irrelevant to today's people who want azadi today in today's context - sorry, she says, India has signed the Simla agreement, and Geelani is a fanatic. Thank you. Fair enough, I suppose. But will she apply the same rigours of historical understanding to the Indian state and its actions in Kashmir? Please? On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 9:53 AM, SJabbar wrote: > Dear Shuddha, > > I think our differences have narrowed considerably as you continue to > clarify your position.  Reading between your lines, you seem to think that I > have a problem with your engaging with Mr. Geelani or that the problem was > your sharing a stage with him. I do not not.  In politics there are no > pariahs.  If someone represents a constituency-- no matter how marginal-- > that is part of the social fabric you cannot ignore it.  It may surprise you > and  many on this list to know that Mr. Geelani and I have known each other > since 1997 and have extremely frank and cordial relations. My problem was > with the language of your report of the meeting where your enthusiasm > (“tallest separatist leader,” he is “NOT against dialogue,” “all that they > are asking for is the Right to self-determination”) masked a political > reality that was far more complex and brutal.  However, you have since > clarified that you do not endorse Mr. Geelani’s  politics and you concede > that he may well have been playing to audiences in Delhi,  bringing us more > or less on the same page except that past experience has made me less likely > to share your belief that someone like Mr. Geelani can be “USED” or that you > can  “compel them to come to a degree of moderation in action, and a > greater, more imaginative radicalism in terms of conceptions.” > > I am glad you agree that people and groups, state and non-state actors who > have committed crimes must stand trial and justice must be done, whether it > is SAS Geelani, Yasin Malik, Syed Salahuddin or various army generals who > have presided over rights abuses while they served in J&K. I have in this > forum written of a Truth & Reconciliation Commission modeled on the South > African experience that should follow the final settlement on J&K. > > I am also glad that you agree with my point of the futility of creating a > new nation-state in the form of an independent Kashmir ( “I am not for the > moment saying and have never said that an independent Kashmir will be in any > way a qualitative improvement (in terms of a state form) than an occupied > Kashmir,”).  But you seem to believe that it is necessary because “ It may > at least lead to the withdrawal of the reality of a brutal occupation.” By > this I assume your vision of regime change means replacing one democratic > republic with another democratic republic and not an Islamic republic or a > military state.  In which case “the reality of a brutal occupation” must > mean the withdrawal of hundreds of thousands of uniformed men in J&K.  But > do you really need to create a new nation-state in order to demilitarize > Kashmir? > > From 1947 to 1989 India’s military presence was restricted to the borders > and to the few garrisons of Srinagar, Baramulla, Leh, Udhampur and Poonch. > Between 1989- 1992 India was being seriously challenged on the military > front by thousands of Kashmiri militants and Islamist mujahideen.  The troop > surge only happened only around 1992-93 and the Indian military was only > able to control the situation around 1995. In 1996 the situation was such > that it was the first time in 6 years it was possible to hold elections and > yet then as in 2002 there were hundreds of assassinations of political > candidates and ordinary workers of political parties (the right to > self-determination is never extended to this group). > > Anyway, my point is that 500,000 or 700,000 troops were not there as a > permanent fixture since 1947 and the ‘most militarized place in the world’ > was not always so.  It is both desirable and possible to withdraw troops and > it should be done in a phased manner.  Though I have been vocal in > advocating this since 2001, sadly, I believe it will be linked to the final > settlement and will not happen before because of the many sleeper cells of > militants that get activated the moment there is peace or at least as they > say ‘normalcy’— as we have seen in last week’s encounter between troops and > the JeM in Srinagar.  BTW Srinagar district was one of the districts being > examined for the revocation of the Disturbed Areas Act.  This encounter will > make it extremely difficult for the state government to do so. > > >  I am glad you agree with me that the 4-point formula can be a solution to > the vexed Kashmir issue, however your reading of what went wrong and putting > the onus of the failure of implementation squarely on New Delhi’s shoulder > is wrong.  Yes, there were delays on New Delhi’s side, but those were not > remarkable considering a political consensus had to be built within the > country (I think it was in 2008 during the Amarnath Yatra that I explained > the entire process at length in this forum).  Very simply what happened was > that the Lawyer’s Movement in Pakistan overtook the Kashmir process and once > Mushrraf was ousted and Benazir was assassinated the country plunged into > political turmoil and the Zaradari government was too weak to break from > Pakistan’s traditional stand of the UN Resolutions.  Both Gen Kayani and the > ISI were not comfortable with Musharraf’s radical departure from tradition. > Both believe Pakistan’s best interests are served by keeping the Kashmir pot > boiling, maintaining India as ‘enemy no 1’, encouraging extremism in > Afghanistan to maintain ‘strategic depth,’ and to scuttle any influence > India may wield in Afghanistan.  So, as much as I and many others would like > to see the 4-point formula being at least discussed, under the present > Pakistani dispensation it is highly unlikely. > > When you advocate a plebiscite and you believe that the azadi movement must > be peaceful then you must also accommodate the possibility of a partitioned > J&K, where large sections of Jammu and all of Ladakh would not vote for > Pakistan (and under what UN Resolution would the option of independence be > granted since NO UN Resolution holds that option and no Kashmiri to date has > appealed to the UN to pass a resolution to include the option?) And how > would you persuade Pakistan to allow a plebiscite in areas under their > control?  And what is your opinion of the vast region of Gilgit-Baltistan > that by Pakistani law has been severed from the state of Jammu & Kashmir and > where its citizens have NO fundamental rights as its constitutional status > has not as yet been determined? > > I am asking these questions not to score points but for us to locate what is > moral or desirable within what is real and possible not just for Kashmiris > who are but a small part of the state, but of all the people of Jammu & > Kashmir. > > Best, > Sonia > > > > > >> >> >> >> My question is, what do we do next. I think that this means that the people >> 'learn' to USE them, to compel them to come to a degree of moderation in >> action, and a greater, more imaginative radicalism in terms of conceptions. >> That is why, the current situation in Kashmir, where the 'Leaders' are being >> 'Led' by people is interesting to me. I find it POSITIVE that they have to do >> flip-flops so often, from Hartal-to-No Hartal- to Hartal again. This shows >> that they are NOT running the street. Things are unpredictable. The change in >> the 'temperature' of SAS Geelani's statements may be as much due to the fact >> that he is no longer in a position to call all the shots. Therefore, he has >> less to lose by 'changing' his tenor. >> >> There is a way in which the language of politics has changed, and it has >> changed because of the way in which people are communicating on all sorts of >> fora. Though they may, out of affection, still say that only Geelani will do >> the Tarjumani, the truth is, everyone is doing their own Tarjumani now. and >> that is the hardest nut for the Government of India to crack. As an anarchist, >> I find this situation, of the actual, concrete, refusal of 'representational >> forms of politics' . however ephemeral it might be at present, quite >> delightful. SO much so, that a 'theatre' of leadership continues, but >> actuality presumes a totally different language of politics. >> >> I find this a fertile situation, one latent with possibilities, for everyone. >> >> As for your other point, about how close we all were to the beginnings of the >> long road towards a solution with Musharraf's four point formula - I agree >> with you. But, then, it was the Government of India that scuttled that >> possibility. If the government of India had acted then, on what was on offer, >> perhaps things would not have come to the situation where they are at present. >> Too much has gone wrong since then. I am not a nationalist of any sort, and to >> me, ALL nation states, and all nation states in waiting,  are ultimately the >> actors of the tragedies of their own making and choosing, >> So, basically, I am not for the moment saying and have never said that an >> independent Kashmir will be in any way a qualitative improvement (in terms of >> a state form) than an occupied Kashmir, but, It may at least lead to the >> withdrawal of the reality of a brutal occupation. >> >> For me, whatever makes that possible, I am prepared to accept. There were, and >> remain many possibilities that span the spectrum from where the situation is >> at present to Indpendence or accession to Pakistan. But thinking about those >> possibilities require all Indians to stop thinking only out of the Indian >> nationalist box. You know very well, that many different kinds of arrangement >> could have been explored. including maximum autonomy under the aegis of a >> joint India-Pakistan guarantee, which is what I understand the Musharraf >> formula to have been, But the bottom line is, whatever is worked out has to be >> acceptable to the popular will, hence a plebiscite with many options on offer, >> and the freedom to campaign for the many options in an atomsphere free of >> coercion. >> >> Realistically speaking, I do not think that the Government of India has the >> imagination any longer to try and think out of the box. If it can, that would >> be great. But, going by the ostrich like attitude of the Government in the >> face of the obvious alienation of the Kashmiri people, I very much doubt it. >> If they had that intelligence, they could have stopped the killings by the >> security forces a long time ago. >> >> Therefore, the only remaining possibility for ending the occupation seems to >> me to be independence for Kashmir, in the short term, under the custodianship >> of the United Nations, like happened in Kosovo.Of course, I strongly assert >> that the political road to this must be through non-violent means, through >> mass political participation, of as many different sections of the population >> as possible. It will be painful, for many Indians to accept, but in the long >> term, and in the absence of any other imaginative solutions thought through by >> the Indian political elites (that chance has come, and sadly, gone) it will be >> in the best interests of the people of India. Of course, the challenge for the >> people of Kashmir would be to think through a vision of independence that does >> not have them switch slavery to Indian occupation to slavery to the Pakistani >> militarist elite. The challenge would be to come up with proposals for a >> demilitarized, non-aggressive Kashmir that can preserve its cultural and >> social openness and liberality, that can take back displaced minorities, and >> can offer them genuine, not token safety and security. That is the hard work >> that imaginative politics will have to undertake in Kashmir. And we should >> never stop expecting and demanding that from all our Kashmiri friends. I >> never, ever cease doing so. >> >>  In the long term, this fact, an Independent Kashmir, could actually be the >> cornerstone of a broad South Asian Union (modelled on the EU) which could >> bring the different nationalities (there may be many by then) of South Asia >> under an arrangement of a free trade zone, a visa free zone, a customs and >> tarrifs union, a charter on shared ecological concerns, and comprehensive >> demilitarization. An independent Kashmir may be the first step in that >> direction. Of course this need not happen. Things could get worse if Kashmir >> separates. I am well aware and cognizant of that possibility. But, at least, >> once the dust and din settles, in our lifetime, there is a likelihood that >> once everyone has climbed off their nationalist high horses, things might be >> worked out, amicably and reasonably between all the stake holders of a future >> free association of South Asian States and Territories. That, I think is the >> only guarantee for peace in our region. I know for certain that an India and >> Pakistan that continue to hold on to their respective fragments of Jammu and >> Kashmir, and an India that enforces that occupation by military force cannot >> contribute to peace in the region. >> >> That is why, I think that freedom for Kashmir, and also, incidentally for >> Tibet, is key to long term peace and stability in Asia, because both these >> developments would reduce the necessity of the big poweres of tomorrow - China >> and India and to a lesser extent - Pakistan from being aggressive nuclear >> powered rivals, and would perhaps, perhaps, open out the true possibility of >> what a worthwhile Asian Century really ought to be like. Otherwise, I am >> afraid that we will replay the disasters of the European history of the >> Twentieth Century, from the First World War onwards, on the soil of Twenty >> First Century Asia. >> >> >> I hope i have made myself clear >> >> best, >> >> >> Shuddha >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On 23-Oct-10, at 7:45 PM, SJabbar wrote: >> >>> Sorry for cross-posting but I sent this message out in the morning as a >>> response to Shuddha¹s 2nd post but received an automated email saying my >>> post had to be reviewed by the moderator.  Since I haven¹t received a >>> response (Monica??!) I assume it was not approved or got lost in the vast >>> belly of the Sarai computer! >>> ------------------------------------- >>> >>> >>> Shuddha, let us take your arguments and apply them to the other side.  Modi >>> belongs to a political party that was in power and he was at the helm when >>> the 2002 Gujarat carnage took place.  He may not have explicitly directed it >>> but he certainly presided over the violence.  What Modi is like as a person, >>> whether he is gentle, cultured, cries at the funeral of his friends or his >>> rivals are of no concern to me  (It is well known that Goebbels was a >>> cultured man and had a refined taste in music and the arts and of course >>> Jinnah ate ham sandwiches). What matters to me is that the man presided over >>> the worst kind of violence and has refused to, till date, condemn it >>> unambiguously.  Instead he and his party continue to cite the economic >>> progress of Muslims in Gujarat to counter it.  The subtext of this‹ and this >>> is a South Asian disease‹ is let us forget the past, galtiyan dono taraf se >>> huin hain (³action-reaction²), and let us move on.  Whether it is the >>> various political parties in India who have incited, controlled and presided >>> over the worst communal or sectarian violence from the 1930¹s to the present >>> day, or the Pakistani army role in the mass rapes of Bangladesh or the Sri >>> Lankan army¹s role against Tamil civilians, every political party in these >>> countries seem to be inflicted by the same disease. >>> Having said that, I believe it is the role of civil society to be vigilant, >>> to be rigorous, to not succumb to the same logic. >>> >>> I know that you have been critical of fundamentalist politics in this forum >>> and others, whether it is Hindutva or Islamist and that is why it surprised >>> me to read your post on the LTG event.  You say ³You may be right when you >>> say that SAS Geelani may be saying one thing in Delhi and another in >>> Srinagar.  I am not here to judge the sincerity, or lack of,  or ambiguity, >>> of these statements.²  Why are you not here to judge the sincerity or lack >>> thereof of these statements?  Surely, one is always judging political >>> parties when they claim one or another thing?  How does one align oneself >>> politically if one goes simply by manifestos and not by actions?  Judging >>> and evaluating is a constant process.  Mamta Bannerjee may have been one >>> thing as a member of the opposition but how will she be when she comes to >>> power?  One reads her statements, one watches carefully her actions >>> following her statements.  If they don¹t gel, we believe her to be >>> insincere. >>> >>> You write: ³I am amazed that this recognition is not getting the space I >>> think it deserves, simply as a NEWS story. ³ Do you remember Atal Behari >>> Vajpayee shed tears after the demolition of the Babri Masjid and Advani >>> described it as ³the saddest day of his life.² Should these isolated moments >>> and statements be highlighted and privileged as representing the 2 men¹s >>> position on the Babri Masjid or should one judge them over a longer period >>> of time, weighing their statements and their actions? >>> >>> As for Mr. Geelani and evaluating his actions, do you believe a responsible >>> leader ought to lead from the front or give calls to his followers to engage >>> in actions that will cause injury or even death from the safety of his home? >>> Mr. Geelani is fully aware that in any part of this planet if you pelt >>> stones at a man with a gun, there is a fair chance that the man with the gun >>> is going to retaliate.  When he was released from jail he made a fine >>> statement calling for the end of the hartaal calendar, saying that this was >>> not the way forward, that these protests could not be sustained, that life >>> could not come to a standstill (btw, the Sopore fruit mandi, his >>> constituency, continued to function through this entire period hartaal >>> calendar or not).  These were wise words from a man who has been in politics >>> for years.  Wise words or the thinking of the ISI, I¹m not sure because the >>> words were echoed by Syed Salahuddin.  What follows is interesting: >>> Salahuddin¹s effigy is burnt and a rumour is floated that Mr. Geelani is >>> selling out to Omar Abdullah.  Does Mr. Geelani stand by his words?  Does he >>> do what Gandhi does after Chauri Chaura?  No, of course not.  He does a >>> total U-turn and starts competing with Masrat Alam on the calendars, >>> subjecting the people of the valley to more misery.  What do ordinary >>> Kashmiris feel about the continuation of this absurd form of protest where >>> they and not the Government of India suffer?  You may find the answer in the >>> fact that there was not a single protest when Masrat Alam was arrested. >>> >>> Again Mr. Geelani saying he Œpersonally¹ favours the accession to Pakistan >>> but will Œabide by¹ what the people of J&K want is neither here nor there. >>> What you see as a maturing position may be read as an opportunistic one >>> until such time as it is tested.  As I have already shown in my last post >>> Mr. Geelani, his political party and his ideology have since the mid-90¹s >>> shown no such respectful accommodation of the political views of others.  In >>> fact any divergence from this view has been silenced by the bullet.  If this >>> is someone¹s history‹ and as much as I should wish it otherwise-- it is >>> very, very difficult for me to suspend my cynicism and turn enthusiastic >>> cartwheels on the basis of one speech to a select audience in New Delhi. >>> >>> With reference to your point about borders:  The GoI acknowledges that >>> Kashmir is an ³issue² between India and Pakistan.  As I have mentioned in my >>> first post, it objects to the word ³dispute² as it internationalizes >>> Kashmir, ignores the Simla Agreement and takes it out of the domain of >>> bilateral talks back to the UN.  If you want my personal opinion on this >>> (and I have argued on this list in the past), I agree with this stand.  I >>> see the UN as a forum where, sadly, world powers have always manipulated >>> nations and it certainly does not have the moral standing after Iraq and >>> Afghanistan to really mediate anywhere in the world.  India and Pakistan >>> need to, and can settle the issue taking into account the wishes of all the >>> people of J&K as it stood in 1947.  As I have argued in the past and as >>> Gen.Musharraf recently said on an NDTV interview that India and Pakistan >>> were very close to drafting an agreement based on his 4-point formula. >>> Interestingly, various interpretations of this 4-point formula were thrown >>> up by all shades of political parties but there was a broad consensus on >>> this whether from the mainstream groups or the separatists.  The only leader >>> that rejected this was Mr. Geelani who insisted that the Kashmir ³dispute² >>> be solved on the UN Resolutions of 1948! >>> >>> As for borders themselves: what is Europe today but a borderless continent? >>> You critique the idea of the nation-state and yet you want to re-invent the >>> wheel by supporting yet another nation-state in independent Kashmir.  Why, >>> when a 21st c. solution in the 4-point formula, similar to the form and >>> content of the EU, could be in the making? >>> >>> Best wishes, >>> Sonia >>> >>> >>> >>> On 22/10/10 8:10 PM, "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Dear Sonia, (don't worry Pawan, its a lot less than '3000 lines') >>>> >>>> I said - " I do not agree with much of what Geelani Saheb represents >>>> politically, or ideologically, but I have no hesitation in saying that what >>>> he >>>> said yesterday, was surprising for its gentleness, for its consideration, >>>> for >>>> its moderation, even for its liberality and open heartedness." >>>> >>>> What part of this sentence seems to suggest that I am 'aligning' with SAS >>>> Geelani. The 'I do not agree with much' does not seem to indicate alignment, >>>> or endorsement to me. The rest of the statement is a statement of fact. Were >>>> SAS Geelani to have said words that were inflammatory yesterday, I would not >>>> have hesitated to said that he had. Allow me to elaborate by way of an >>>> example >>>> - I have never been in agreement with the political philosophy of >>>> M.K.Gandhi, >>>> but I never make the mistake of saying that my disagreement with Gandhi (my >>>> refusal to endorse Gandhian ideology and what it means politically) amounts >>>> to >>>> my failure to recognize Gandhi's gentleness, his consideration, his >>>> moderation, his liberality and its open heartedness. >>>> >>>>  I have been strongly critical Islamist politics, including on this forum, >>>> whenever I have considered it necessary to do so. That is one thing, and it >>>> is >>>> where I would differ from SAS Geelani, explicitly, categorically, unless he >>>> makes a statement, like the Mirwaiz did recently, abjuring an 'Islamist >>>> future >>>> for Kashmir'. But to say that SAS Geelani has never expressed regret for the >>>> violence that rocked even the pro-Azadi camp from within is specious. >>>> Kashmiri >>>> polticians of all hues routinely issue condemnations of incidents of >>>> terrorism, and targetted assasinations. Geelani, to my knowledge, has not >>>> been >>>> any exception. Eyewitnesses speak of seeing him weeping at Abdul Ghani >>>> Lone's >>>> funeral. I do not know, nor do I care, whether these tears were genuine. All >>>> I >>>> am saying is that if the man has not said that he celebrates the assasins of >>>> the elder Mirwaiz, or Abdul Ghani Lone, or the attacks on Dr. Shameema that >>>> you mention, then, it is unfair to accuse him of 'Not Saying' the 'not >>>> saying'. He condemns assasinations. He does not celebrate the assasin. This >>>> means that he cannot be accused of being the source of the assasination, >>>> unless other concrete evidence is brought to bear upon the case. >>>> >>>>  You may be right when you say that SAS Geelani may be saying one thing in >>>> Delhi and another in Srinagar.  I am not here to judge the sincerity, or >>>> lack >>>> of,  or ambiguity, of these statements. I think politically, the significant >>>> thing is that whatever he may have said in the past, SAS Geelani, HAS to >>>> speak >>>> a language today that is not secterian. He may have done so in the past. Let >>>> us remember that he was an elected member of the J&K assembly for more than >>>> one term in the past, and that means he had to swear fealty of some sort to >>>> the Indian constitution. Judging by this, we should be able to evaluate his >>>> 'Islamist' commitments in the light of his sometime loyalty to an apparently >>>> secular constitution. If the sake of argument, we say that we should take >>>> seriously what came 'after' as representing the 'maturing' of his position, >>>> then, if his avowedly 'secterian' / Islamist / Pro-Pakistan phase came after >>>> his phase as an MLA of the J&K assembly, then, so too has this 'current' >>>> phase >>>> come 'after' his secterian posturing. I am not the one who needs to split >>>> these hairs, but clearly, if some emphasis is bieng given to chronology as a >>>> way of attributing the man's politics to the man's biography, then let's >>>> stay >>>> consistent, and say, that if the current SAS Geelani is saying things that >>>> don't seem to require the automatic assumption of an Isamic state (which is >>>> what we would expect from the 'old' Geelani, then, we have every reason to >>>> take it as seriously as when he made his decision to abandon 'mainstream' >>>> electoral politics in Jammu and Kashmir for the hardline fringe. >>>> >>>> Indeed, I would go so far as to say that as far as we are concerned, we >>>> should >>>> assume, and hold him, and his followers, responsible to the Œevolution¹ of >>>> their statements, as they occur. If he goes back on the broad, liberal >>>> nature >>>> of a vision for Azad kashmir (which, incidentally, among other things, >>>> included the somewhat whimsical detail of a provision of compensation for >>>> damages were a believing Muslim to damage a bottle of alchohl of a >>>> non-believer), then, we should hold him responsible for that regression. He >>>> made a speech that was refreshingly free of Islamist rhetoric yesterday, >>>> that >>>> spoke in the broad terms of 'Insaaniyat' - Humanity. If Atal Behari Vajpayee >>>> can be appreciated, as indeed he should have been, for speaking in terms of >>>> 'Insaaniyat' when it came to thinking about the solution to the question of >>>> Jammu and Kashmir, why could the mainstream media not pick up the fact that >>>> at >>>> least in stated terms, SAS Geelani was making as major a move, by invoking >>>> 'Insaaniyat' over secterian considerations, exactly as Vajpayee had done. >>>> Recognizing this does not require us to align with, or endorse, either SAS >>>> Geelani, or Atal Behari Vajpayee, it simply requires us to register a fact >>>> that a major move is in process. That politics is being transformed, even as >>>> we speak. I am amazed that this recognition is being painted as 'alignment, >>>> or >>>> endorsement'. I am amazed that this recognition is not getting the space I >>>> think it deserves, simply as a NEWS story. SAS Geelani says he wishes India >>>> to >>>> be a strong country, a regional power, that he supports (in principle) a >>>> future permanent place for India on the United Natons Security Council, once >>>> Kashmir is liberated   - in other words, he is saying, let us go, and we >>>> will >>>> stand with you, dont you think this is BIG news. That is what I was trying >>>> to >>>> talk about. Trying to talk about does not make me a camp follower of SAS >>>> Geelani or any other politician, in India, Kashmir, or elsewhere. >>>> >>>> My sense is, the movement for Azadi in Kashmir has gone beyond the persona >>>> of >>>> SAS Geelani, and while he is universally respected for his integrity and >>>> incorruptability, his word is by no means, Œlaw¹. He, and other leaders like >>>> him, are being Œled¹ as much as they are Œleading¹ the people they claim to >>>> represent. Part of this process means giving up the secterian rhetoric that >>>> people in Kashmir genuinely feel alienated by. We should welcome this >>>> development. >>>> >>>> Now, I come to the views that he holds regarding independence and merger >>>> with >>>> Pakistan. He has said, including in his recent interview with Seema Mustafa >>>> that he PERSONALLY prefers accession to Pakistan, but that he is willing to >>>> abide by whatever the people of Jammu and Kashmir decide. I do not think >>>> that >>>> the people of Jammu and Kashmir have a future with Pakistan.So, I disagree >>>> with SAS Geelani's personal view. I strongly argue for a demilitarized, >>>> independent, secular Jammu and Kashmir. That makes me someone who does not >>>> endorse SAS Geelani's position. Let's look at thigns this way, had this been >>>> 1935, I would probably have not been in agreement with M.K. Gandhi's vision >>>> of >>>> what he thought the future of South Asia and India ought to be. But that >>>> does >>>> not mean that I would dismiss Gandhi as irrelevant, or someone to be mocked >>>> and reviled. I would engage with him politicially, as many currents in India >>>> at that time did. They were not uncritical of Gandhi (from the left and the >>>> right) but they knew that Gandhi's voice had a certain resonance. I think >>>> that >>>> the attitude that people have towards SAS Geelani is not dissimilar. They >>>> may >>>> not agree with him on many counts, and most Kashmiris that I know personally >>>> would fit that description. But none would want to dismiss or demonize him. >>>> Primarily because of his unwillingness to be an occasional pawn in the hands >>>> of the occupation. >>>> >>>>  I have yet to come across an Indian politician who is willing to say, on >>>> the >>>> record, that he PERSONALLY prefers that Jammu and Kashmir stay with India, >>>> but >>>> will respect whatever the people of Jammu and Kashmir decide in a free and >>>> fair plebiscite. If that were to be the case, then we would get much further >>>> than where we are today in Kashmir. I have no quarrel with those who want >>>> Kashmir to stay in India. Theirs is a point of view. It needs to be freely >>>> heard, freely debated, and if is convincing to the people of Jammu and >>>> Kashmir, best of luck to those who carry the day. What I am against is >>>> maintaining Jammu and Kashmir as parts of the Indian Union by force. By >>>> violence. By occupation. >>>> >>>> Finally, I come to the five points, and whether or not, sticking to the >>>> point >>>> about Kashmir being disputed is an obstacle. Lets face facts. Kashmir is a >>>> dispute. Every single map of the world that is not printed in India shows >>>> it, >>>> visually, as a disputed territory. That is why the Government of India has >>>> to >>>> put its silly ink stamp on atlases. That is why there is a United Nations >>>> Observer group in Delhi, Islamabad and Srinagar. United Nations observers >>>> are >>>> present, in the same way, in say Cyprus (another dispute) Israel / >>>> Palestine, >>>> another dispute. What is the big deal in saying, yes, it is a dispute. Will >>>> India disappear if the public secret is admitted to? As far as I am >>>> concerned >>>> borders, and sovereignty, are less important than the lives of people. If >>>> discussing a border, and what it means, can be a method to save lives, then >>>> refusing to do so, is a crime. The Government of India can offer to >>>> 'discuss' >>>> - sovereignty over those areas of the India-Tibet border that were taken by >>>> force majeure by British Imperial power, but it will sacrifice the lives of >>>> hundreds of thousands of people in order to keep the fetish of the Indian >>>> Union's  soveriegnty and integrity alive in the case of Jammu and Kashmir. >>>> This policy seems to me to be totally criminal and misguided. >>>> >>>> Borders are made by human beings, and can be changed by human beings. The >>>> geographical expression of the Union of India is not divinely ordained. >>>> Sensible people all over the world, understand that maps can change, and >>>> that >>>> they do change. We hope that the map of China can someday be drawn in >>>> Chinese >>>> school text books without engulfing Tibet. If that can be a reasonable >>>> desire, >>>> and not be seen as an 'obstruction', why should a similar desire be seen as >>>> an >>>> obstruction in the case of India and Jammu and Kashmir. Arnab Goswami >>>> repeatedly used the word 'splittist' yestyerday to refer to all those who >>>> were >>>> speaking at the meeting at the LTG yesterday. A word that is used by the >>>> Chinese government and the Chinese Communist Party whenever it refers to the >>>> Dalai Lama and the movement for a free Tibet. Are we (our government, >>>> sections >>>> of our media) aping the Chinese government and the behemoth of the Chinese >>>> Communist Party in aligning and endorsing ourselves with the fetish of a man >>>> made fiction of sovereignty. I should hope that we can do better than that. >>>> >>>> best regards, >>>> >>>> Shuddha >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe >>> in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >>> >>> >>> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >>> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >>> Raqs Media Collective >>> shuddha at sarai.net >>> www.sarai.net >>> www.raqsmediacollective.net >>> >>> >>> >>> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kiccovich at yahoo.com Tue Oct 26 15:58:22 2010 From: kiccovich at yahoo.com (francesca recchia) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 03:28:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] reading suggestion Message-ID: <830862.39712.qm@web113213.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Dear all Does anyone have any suggestions about readings, researches or researchers dealing with the political and economic relations between India and Iraq in the 1980s? Any help will be greatly appreciated Thanks Francesca francesca recchia kiccovich at yahoo.com it +39 338 166 3648 From sonia.jabbar at gmail.com Tue Oct 26 15:58:23 2010 From: sonia.jabbar at gmail.com (SJabbar) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 15:58:23 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?iso-8859-1?q?Azadi=3A_The_Only_Way_=AD_Report_fro?= =?iso-8859-1?q?m_a_Turbulent_Few_Hours_in_Delhi?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Aditya Raj Baul, What exactly is your question? Sincerely, Sonia Gandhi On 26/10/10 2:04 PM, "Aditya Raj Baul" wrote: > I like it how Sonia Jabbar wants to hold Kashmir hostage to history - to the > histories of India and Pakistan, to the history of what Geelani has or has not > done, has or has not said. She does not think history is irrelevant to today's > people who want azadi today in today's context - sorry, she says, India has > signed the Simla agreement, and Geelani is a fanatic. Thank you. Fair enough, > I suppose. But will she apply the same rigours of historical understanding to > the Indian state and its actions in Kashmir? Please? On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at > 9:53 AM, SJabbar wrote: > Dear Shuddha, > > I think > our differences have narrowed considerably as you continue to > clarify your > position.  Reading between your lines, you seem to think that I > have a > problem with your engaging with Mr. Geelani or that the problem was > your > sharing a stage with him. I do not not.  In politics there are no > pariahs. >  If someone represents a constituency-- no matter how marginal-- > that is > part of the social fabric you cannot ignore it.  It may surprise you > and >  many on this list to know that Mr. Geelani and I have known each other > > since 1997 and have extremely frank and cordial relations. My problem was> > with the language of your report of the meeting where your enthusiasm > > (“tallest separatist leader,” he is “NOT against dialogue,” “all that they > > are asking for is the Right to self-determination”) masked a political > > reality that was far more complex and brutal.  However, you have since > > clarified that you do not endorse Mr. Geelani’s  politics and you concede > > that he may well have been playing to audiences in Delhi,  bringing us more > > or less on the same page except that past experience has made me less likely > > to share your belief that someone like Mr. Geelani can be “USED” or that you > > can  “compel them to come to a degree of moderation in action, and a > > greater, more imaginative radicalism in terms of conceptions.” > > I am glad > you agree that people and groups, state and non-state actors who > have > committed crimes must stand trial and justice must be done, whether it > is > SAS Geelani, Yasin Malik, Syed Salahuddin or various army generals who > have > presided over rights abuses while they served in J&K. I have in this > forum > written of a Truth & Reconciliation Commission modeled on the South > African > experience that should follow the final settlement on J&K. > > I am also glad > that you agree with my point of the futility of creating a > new nation-state > in the form of an independent Kashmir ( “I am not for the > moment saying and > have never said that an independent Kashmir will be in any > way a qualitative > improvement (in terms of a state form) than an occupied > Kashmir,”).  But you > seem to believe that it is necessary because “ It may > at least lead to the > withdrawal of the reality of a brutal occupation.” By > this I assume your > vision of regime change means replacing one democratic > republic with another > democratic republic and not an Islamic republic or a > military state.  In > which case “the reality of a brutal occupation” must > mean the withdrawal of > hundreds of thousands of uniformed men in J&K.  But > do you really need to > create a new nation-state in order to demilitarize > Kashmir? > > From 1947 to > 1989 India’s military presence was restricted to the borders > and to the few > garrisons of Srinagar, Baramulla, Leh, Udhampur and Poonch. > Between 1989- > 1992 India was being seriously challenged on the military > front by thousands > of Kashmiri militants and Islamist mujahideen.  The troop > surge only > happened only around 1992-93 and the Indian military was only > able to > control the situation around 1995. In 1996 the situation was such > that it > was the first time in 6 years it was possible to hold elections and > yet then > as in 2002 there were hundreds of assassinations of political > candidates and > ordinary workers of political parties (the right to > self-determination is > never extended to this group). > > Anyway, my point is that 500,000 or 700,000 > troops were not there as a > permanent fixture since 1947 and the ‘most > militarized place in the world’ > was not always so.  It is both desirable and > possible to withdraw troops and > it should be done in a phased manner. >  Though I have been vocal in > advocating this since 2001, sadly, I believe it > will be linked to the final > settlement and will not happen before because of > the many sleeper cells of > militants that get activated the moment there is > peace or at least as they > say ‘normalcy’— as we have seen in last week’s > encounter between troops and > the JeM in Srinagar.  BTW Srinagar district was > one of the districts being > examined for the revocation of the Disturbed > Areas Act.  This encounter will > make it extremely difficult for the state > government to do so. > > >  I am glad you agree with me that the 4-point > formula can be a solution to > the vexed Kashmir issue, however your reading > of what went wrong and putting > the onus of the failure of implementation > squarely on New Delhi’s shoulder > is wrong.  Yes, there were delays on New > Delhi’s side, but those were not > remarkable considering a political > consensus had to be built within the > country (I think it was in 2008 during > the Amarnath Yatra that I explained > the entire process at length in this > forum).  Very simply what happened was > that the Lawyer’s Movement in > Pakistan overtook the Kashmir process and once > Mushrraf was ousted and > Benazir was assassinated the country plunged into > political turmoil and the > Zaradari government was too weak to break from > Pakistan’s traditional stand > of the UN Resolutions.  Both Gen Kayani and the > ISI were not comfortable > with Musharraf’s radical departure from tradition. > Both believe Pakistan’s > best interests are served by keeping the Kashmir pot > boiling, maintaining > India as ‘enemy no 1’, encouraging extremism in > Afghanistan to maintain > ‘strategic depth,’ and to scuttle any influence > India may wield in > Afghanistan.  So, as much as I and many others would like > to see the 4-point > formula being at least discussed, under the present > Pakistani dispensation > it is highly unlikely. > > When you advocate a plebiscite and you believe that > the azadi movement must > be peaceful then you must also accommodate the > possibility of a partitioned > J&K, where large sections of Jammu and all of > Ladakh would not vote for > Pakistan (and under what UN Resolution would the > option of independence be > granted since NO UN Resolution holds that option > and no Kashmiri to date has > appealed to the UN to pass a resolution to > include the option?) And how > would you persuade Pakistan to allow a > plebiscite in areas under their > control?  And what is your opinion of the > vast region of Gilgit-Baltistan > that by Pakistani law has been severed from > the state of Jammu & Kashmir and > where its citizens have NO fundamental > rights as its constitutional status > has not as yet been determined? > > I am > asking these questions not to score points but for us to locate what is > > moral or desirable within what is real and possible not just for Kashmiris > > who are but a small part of the state, but of all the people of Jammu & > > Kashmir. > > Best, > Sonia > > > > > >> >> >> >> My question is, what do we do > next. I think that this means that the people >> 'learn' to USE them, to > compel them to come to a degree of moderation in >> action, and a greater, > more imaginative radicalism in terms of conceptions. >> That is why, the > current situation in Kashmir, where the 'Leaders' are being >> 'Led' by people > is interesting to me. I find it POSITIVE that they have to do >> flip-flops so > often, from Hartal-to-No Hartal- to Hartal again. This shows >> that they are > NOT running the street. Things are unpredictable. The change in >> the > 'temperature' of SAS Geelani's statements may be as much due to the fact >> > that he is no longer in a position to call all the shots. Therefore, he has >> > less to lose by 'changing' his tenor. >> >> There is a way in which the > language of politics has changed, and it has >> changed because of the way in > which people are communicating on all sorts of >> fora. Though they may, out > of affection, still say that only Geelani will do >> the Tarjumani, the truth > is, everyone is doing their own Tarjumani now. and >> that is the hardest nut > for the Government of India to crack. As an anarchist, >> I find this > situation, of the actual, concrete, refusal of 'representational >> forms of > politics' . however ephemeral it might be at present, quite >> delightful. SO > much so, that a 'theatre' of leadership continues, but >> actuality presumes a > totally different language of politics. >> >> I find this a fertile situation, > one latent with possibilities, for everyone. >> >> As for your other point, > about how close we all were to the beginnings of the >> long road towards a > solution with Musharraf's four point formula - I agree >> with you. But, then, > it was the Government of India that scuttled that >> possibility. If the > government of India had acted then, on what was on offer, >> perhaps things > would not have come to the situation where they are at present. >> Too much > has gone wrong since then. I am not a nationalist of any sort, and to >> me, > ALL nation states, and all nation states in waiting,  are ultimately the>> > actors of the tragedies of their own making and choosing, >> So, basically, I > am not for the moment saying and have never said that an >> independent > Kashmir will be in any way a qualitative improvement (in terms of >> a state > form) than an occupied Kashmir, but, It may at least lead to the >> withdrawal > of the reality of a brutal occupation. >> >> For me, whatever makes that > possible, I am prepared to accept. There were, and >> remain many > possibilities that span the spectrum from where the situation is >> at present > to Indpendence or accession to Pakistan. But thinking about those >> > possibilities require all Indians to stop thinking only out of the Indian>> > nationalist box. You know very well, that many different kinds of > arrangement >> could have been explored. including maximum autonomy under the > aegis of a >> joint India-Pakistan guarantee, which is what I understand the > Musharraf >> formula to have been, But the bottom line is, whatever is worked > out has to be >> acceptable to the popular will, hence a plebiscite with many > options on offer, >> and the freedom to campaign for the many options in an > atomsphere free of >> coercion. >> >> Realistically speaking, I do not think > that the Government of India has the >> imagination any longer to try and > think out of the box. If it can, that would >> be great. But, going by the > ostrich like attitude of the Government in the >> face of the obvious > alienation of the Kashmiri people, I very much doubt it. >> If they had that > intelligence, they could have stopped the killings by the >> security forces a > long time ago. >> >> Therefore, the only remaining possibility for ending the > occupation seems to >> me to be independence for Kashmir, in the short term, > under the custodianship >> of the United Nations, like happened in Kosovo.Of > course, I strongly assert >> that the political road to this must be through > non-violent means, through >> mass political participation, of as many > different sections of the population >> as possible. It will be painful, for > many Indians to accept, but in the long >> term, and in the absence of any > other imaginative solutions thought through by >> the Indian political elites > (that chance has come, and sadly, gone) it will be >> in the best interests of > the people of India. Of course, the challenge for the >> people of Kashmir > would be to think through a vision of independence that does >> not have them > switch slavery to Indian occupation to slavery to the Pakistani >> militarist > elite. The challenge would be to come up with proposals for a >> > demilitarized, non-aggressive Kashmir that can preserve its cultural and >> > social openness and liberality, that can take back displaced minorities, > and >> can offer them genuine, not token safety and security. That is the hard > work >> that imaginative politics will have to undertake in Kashmir. And we > should >> never stop expecting and demanding that from all our Kashmiri > friends. I >> never, ever cease doing so. >> >>  In the long term, this fact, > an Independent Kashmir, could actually be the >> cornerstone of a broad South > Asian Union (modelled on the EU) which could >> bring the different > nationalities (there may be many by then) of South Asia >> under an > arrangement of a free trade zone, a visa free zone, a customs and >> tarrifs > union, a charter on shared ecological concerns, and comprehensive >> > demilitarization. An independent Kashmir may be the first step in that >> > direction. Of course this need not happen. Things could get worse if > Kashmir >> separates. I am well aware and cognizant of that possibility. But, > at least, >> once the dust and din settles, in our lifetime, there is a > likelihood that >> once everyone has climbed off their nationalist high > horses, things might be >> worked out, amicably and reasonably between all the > stake holders of a future >> free association of South Asian States and > Territories. That, I think is the >> only guarantee for peace in our region. I > know for certain that an India and >> Pakistan that continue to hold on to > their respective fragments of Jammu and >> Kashmir, and an India that enforces > that occupation by military force cannot >> contribute to peace in the > region. >> >> That is why, I think that freedom for Kashmir, and also, > incidentally for >> Tibet, is key to long term peace and stability in Asia, > because both these >> developments would reduce the necessity of the big > poweres of tomorrow - China >> and India and to a lesser extent - Pakistan > from being aggressive nuclear >> powered rivals, and would perhaps, perhaps, > open out the true possibility of >> what a worthwhile Asian Century really > ought to be like. Otherwise, I am >> afraid that we will replay the disasters > of the European history of the >> Twentieth Century, from the First World War > onwards, on the soil of Twenty >> First Century Asia. >> >> >> I hope i have > made myself clear >> >> best, >> >> >> Shuddha >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On > 23-Oct-10, at 7:45 PM, SJabbar wrote: >> >>> Sorry for cross-posting but I > sent this message out in the morning as a >>> response to Shuddha¹s 2nd post > but received an automated email saying my >>> post had to be reviewed by the > moderator.  Since I haven¹t received a >>> response (Monica??!) I assume it > was not approved or got lost in the vast >>> belly of the Sarai computer! >>> > ------------------------------------- >>> >>> >>> Shuddha, let us take your > arguments and apply them to the other side.  Modi >>> belongs to a political > party that was in power and he was at the helm when >>> the 2002 Gujarat > carnage took place.  He may not have explicitly directed it >>> but he > certainly presided over the violence.  What Modi is like as a person, >>> > whether he is gentle, cultured, cries at the funeral of his friends or his >>> > rivals are of no concern to me  (It is well known that Goebbels was a >>> > cultured man and had a refined taste in music and the arts and of course >>> > Jinnah ate ham sandwiches). What matters to me is that the man presided > over >>> the worst kind of violence and has refused to, till date, condemn > it >>> unambiguously.  Instead he and his party continue to cite the > economic >>> progress of Muslims in Gujarat to counter it.  The subtext of > this‹ and this >>> is a South Asian disease‹ is let us forget the past, > galtiyan dono taraf se >>> huin hain (³action-reaction²), and let us move on. >  Whether it is the >>> various political parties in India who have incited, > controlled and presided >>> over the worst communal or sectarian violence from > the 1930¹s to the present >>> day, or the Pakistani army role in the mass > rapes of Bangladesh or the Sri >>> Lankan army¹s role against Tamil civilians, > every political party in these >>> countries seem to be inflicted by the same > disease. >>> Having said that, I believe it is the role of civil society to be > vigilant, >>> to be rigorous, to not succumb to the same logic. >>> >>> I know > that you have been critical of fundamentalist politics in this forum >>> and > others, whether it is Hindutva or Islamist and that is why it surprised >>> me > to read your post on the LTG event.  You say ³You may be right when you>>> > say that SAS Geelani may be saying one thing in Delhi and another in >>> > Srinagar.  I am not here to judge the sincerity, or lack of,  or > ambiguity, >>> of these statements.²  Why are you not here to judge the > sincerity or lack >>> thereof of these statements?  Surely, one is always > judging political >>> parties when they claim one or another thing?  How does > one align oneself >>> politically if one goes simply by manifestos and not by > actions?  Judging >>> and evaluating is a constant process.  Mamta Bannerjee > may have been one >>> thing as a member of the opposition but how will she be > when she comes to >>> power?  One reads her statements, one watches carefully > her actions >>> following her statements.  If they don¹t gel, we believe her > to be >>> insincere. >>> >>> You write: ³I am amazed that this recognition is > not getting the space I >>> think it deserves, simply as a NEWS story. ³ Do > you remember Atal Behari >>> Vajpayee shed tears after the demolition of the > Babri Masjid and Advani >>> described it as ³the saddest day of his life.² > Should these isolated moments >>> and statements be highlighted and privileged > as representing the 2 men¹s >>> position on the Babri Masjid or should one > judge them over a longer period >>> of time, weighing their statements and > their actions? >>> >>> As for Mr. Geelani and evaluating his actions, do you > believe a responsible >>> leader ought to lead from the front or give calls to > his followers to engage >>> in actions that will cause injury or even death > from the safety of his home? >>> Mr. Geelani is fully aware that in any part > of this planet if you pelt >>> stones at a man with a gun, there is a fair > chance that the man with the gun >>> is going to retaliate.  When he was > released from jail he made a fine >>> statement calling for the end of the > hartaal calendar, saying that this was >>> not the way forward, that these > protests could not be sustained, that life >>> could not come to a standstill > (btw, the Sopore fruit mandi, his >>> constituency, continued to function > through this entire period hartaal >>> calendar or not).  These were wise > words from a man who has been in politics >>> for years.  Wise words or the > thinking of the ISI, I¹m not sure because the >>> words were echoed by Syed > Salahuddin.  What follows is interesting: >>> Salahuddin¹s effigy is burnt and > a rumour is floated that Mr. Geelani is >>> selling out to Omar Abdullah. >  Does Mr. Geelani stand by his words?  Does he >>> do what Gandhi does after > Chauri Chaura?  No, of course not.  He does a >>> total U-turn and starts > competing with Masrat Alam on the calendars, >>> subjecting the people of the > valley to more misery.  What do ordinary >>> Kashmiris feel about the > continuation of this absurd form of protest where >>> they and not the > Government of India suffer?  You may find the answer in the >>> fact that > there was not a single protest when Masrat Alam was arrested. >>> >>> Again > Mr. Geelani saying he Œpersonally¹ favours the accession to Pakistan >>> but > will Œabide by¹ what the people of J&K want is neither here nor there. >>> > What you see as a maturing position may be read as an opportunistic one >>> > until such time as it is tested.  As I have already shown in my last post >>> > Mr. Geelani, his political party and his ideology have since the mid-90¹s >>> > shown no such respectful accommodation of the political views of others. >  In >>> fact any divergence from this view has been silenced by the bullet. >  If this >>> is someone¹s history‹ and as much as I should wish it otherwise-- > it is >>> very, very difficult for me to suspend my cynicism and turn > enthusiastic >>> cartwheels on the basis of one speech to a select audience in > New Delhi. >>> >>> With reference to your point about borders:  The GoI > acknowledges that >>> Kashmir is an ³issue² between India and Pakistan.  As I > have mentioned in my >>> first post, it objects to the word ³dispute² as it > internationalizes >>> Kashmir, ignores the Simla Agreement and takes it out of > the domain of >>> bilateral talks back to the UN.  If you want my personal > opinion on this >>> (and I have argued on this list in the past), I agree with > this stand.  I >>> see the UN as a forum where, sadly, world powers have > always manipulated >>> nations and it certainly does not have the moral > standing after Iraq and >>> Afghanistan to really mediate anywhere in the > world.  India and Pakistan >>> need to, and can settle the issue taking into > account the wishes of all the >>> people of J&K as it stood in 1947.  As I > have argued in the past and as >>> Gen.Musharraf recently said on an NDTV > interview that India and Pakistan >>> were very close to drafting an agreement > based on his 4-point formula. >>> Interestingly, various interpretations of > this 4-point formula were thrown >>> up by all shades of political parties but > there was a broad consensus on >>> this whether from the mainstream groups or > the separatists.  The only leader >>> that rejected this was Mr. Geelani who > insisted that the Kashmir ³dispute² >>> be solved on the UN Resolutions of > 1948! >>> >>> As for borders themselves: what is Europe today but a borderless > continent? >>> You critique the idea of the nation-state and yet you want to > re-invent the >>> wheel by supporting yet another nation-state in independent > Kashmir.  Why, >>> when a 21st c. solution in the 4-point formula, similar to > the form and >>> content of the EU, could be in the making? >>> >>> Best > wishes, >>> Sonia >>> >>> >>> >>> On 22/10/10 8:10 PM, "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" > wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Dear Sonia, (don't worry Pawan, its a > lot less than '3000 lines') >>>> >>>> I said - " I do not agree with much of > what Geelani Saheb represents >>>> politically, or ideologically, but I have > no hesitation in saying that what >>>> he >>>> said yesterday, was surprising > for its gentleness, for its consideration, >>>> for >>>> its moderation, even > for its liberality and open heartedness." >>>> >>>> What part of this sentence > seems to suggest that I am 'aligning' with SAS >>>> Geelani. The 'I do not > agree with much' does not seem to indicate alignment, >>>> or endorsement to > me. The rest of the statement is a statement of fact. Were >>>> SAS Geelani to > have said words that were inflammatory yesterday, I would not >>>> have > hesitated to said that he had. Allow me to elaborate by way of an >>>> > example >>>> - I have never been in agreement with the political philosophy > of >>>> M.K.Gandhi, >>>> but I never make the mistake of saying that my > disagreement with Gandhi (my >>>> refusal to endorse Gandhian ideology and > what it means politically) amounts >>>> to >>>> my failure to recognize > Gandhi's gentleness, his consideration, his >>>> moderation, his liberality > and its open heartedness. >>>> >>>>  I have been strongly critical Islamist > politics, including on this forum, >>>> whenever I have considered it > necessary to do so. That is one thing, and it >>>> is >>>> where I would > differ from SAS Geelani, explicitly, categorically, unless he >>>> makes a > statement, like the Mirwaiz did recently, abjuring an 'Islamist >>>> > future >>>> for Kashmir'. But to say that SAS Geelani has never expressed > regret for the >>>> violence that rocked even the pro-Azadi camp from within > is specious. >>>> Kashmiri >>>> polticians of all hues routinely issue > condemnations of incidents of >>>> terrorism, and targetted assasinations. > Geelani, to my knowledge, has not >>>> been >>>> any exception. Eyewitnesses > speak of seeing him weeping at Abdul Ghani >>>> Lone's >>>> funeral. I do not > know, nor do I care, whether these tears were genuine. All >>>> I >>>> am > saying is that if the man has not said that he celebrates the assasins of>>>> > the elder Mirwaiz, or Abdul Ghani Lone, or the attacks on Dr. Shameema > that >>>> you mention, then, it is unfair to accuse him of 'Not Saying' the > 'not >>>> saying'. He condemns assasinations. He does not celebrate the > assasin. This >>>> means that he cannot be accused of being the source of the > assasination, >>>> unless other concrete evidence is brought to bear upon the > case. >>>> >>>>  You may be right when you say that SAS Geelani may be saying > one thing in >>>> Delhi and another in Srinagar.  I am not here to judge the > sincerity, or >>>> lack >>>> of,  or ambiguity, of these statements. I think > politically, the significant >>>> thing is that whatever he may have said in > the past, SAS Geelani, HAS to >>>> speak >>>> a language today that is not > secterian. He may have done so in the past. Let >>>> us remember that he was > an elected member of the J&K assembly for more than >>>> one term in the past, > and that means he had to swear fealty of some sort to >>>> the Indian > constitution. Judging by this, we should be able to evaluate his >>>> > 'Islamist' commitments in the light of his sometime loyalty to an > apparently >>>> secular constitution. If the sake of argument, we say that we > should take >>>> seriously what came 'after' as representing the 'maturing' of > his position, >>>> then, if his avowedly 'secterian' / Islamist / Pro-Pakistan > phase came after >>>> his phase as an MLA of the J&K assembly, then, so too > has this 'current' >>>> phase >>>> come 'after' his secterian posturing. I am > not the one who needs to split >>>> these hairs, but clearly, if some emphasis > is bieng given to chronology as a >>>> way of attributing the man's politics > to the man's biography, then let's >>>> stay >>>> consistent, and say, that if > the current SAS Geelani is saying things that >>>> don't seem to require the > automatic assumption of an Isamic state (which is >>>> what we would expect > from the 'old' Geelani, then, we have every reason to >>>> take it as > seriously as when he made his decision to abandon 'mainstream' >>>> electoral > politics in Jammu and Kashmir for the hardline fringe. >>>> >>>> Indeed, I > would go so far as to say that as far as we are concerned, we >>>> should >>>> > assume, and hold him, and his followers, responsible to the Œevolution¹ > of >>>> their statements, as they occur. If he goes back on the broad, > liberal >>>> nature >>>> of a vision for Azad kashmir (which, incidentally, > among other things, >>>> included the somewhat whimsical detail of a provision > of compensation for >>>> damages were a believing Muslim to damage a bottle of > alchohl of a >>>> non-believer), then, we should hold him responsible for that > regression. He >>>> made a speech that was refreshingly free of Islamist > rhetoric yesterday, >>>> that >>>> spoke in the broad terms of 'Insaaniyat' - > Humanity. If Atal Behari Vajpayee >>>> can be appreciated, as indeed he should > have been, for speaking in terms of >>>> 'Insaaniyat' when it came to thinking > about the solution to the question of >>>> Jammu and Kashmir, why could the > mainstream media not pick up the fact that >>>> at >>>> least in stated terms, > SAS Geelani was making as major a move, by invoking >>>> 'Insaaniyat' over > secterian considerations, exactly as Vajpayee had done. >>>> Recognizing this > does not require us to align with, or endorse, either SAS >>>> Geelani, or > Atal Behari Vajpayee, it simply requires us to register a fact >>>> that a > major move is in process. That politics is being transformed, even as >>>> we > speak. I am amazed that this recognition is being painted as 'alignment, >>>> > or >>>> endorsement'. I am amazed that this recognition is not getting the > space I >>>> think it deserves, simply as a NEWS story. SAS Geelani says he > wishes India >>>> to >>>> be a strong country, a regional power, that he > supports (in principle) a >>>> future permanent place for India on the United > Natons Security Council, once >>>> Kashmir is liberated   - in other words, he > is saying, let us go, and we >>>> will >>>> stand with you, dont you think > this is BIG news. That is what I was trying >>>> to >>>> talk about. Trying to > talk about does not make me a camp follower of SAS >>>> Geelani or any other > politician, in India, Kashmir, or elsewhere. >>>> >>>> My sense is, the > movement for Azadi in Kashmir has gone beyond the persona >>>> of >>>> SAS > Geelani, and while he is universally respected for his integrity and >>>> > incorruptability, his word is by no means, Œlaw¹. He, and other leaders > like >>>> him, are being Œled¹ as much as they are Œleading¹ the people they > claim to >>>> represent. Part of this process means giving up the secterian > rhetoric that >>>> people in Kashmir genuinely feel alienated by. We should > welcome this >>>> development. >>>> >>>> Now, I come to the views that he > holds regarding independence and merger >>>> with >>>> Pakistan. He has said, > including in his recent interview with Seema Mustafa >>>> that he PERSONALLY > prefers accession to Pakistan, but that he is willing to >>>> abide by > whatever the people of Jammu and Kashmir decide. I do not think >>>> that >>>> > the people of Jammu and Kashmir have a future with Pakistan.So, I > disagree >>>> with SAS Geelani's personal view. I strongly argue for a > demilitarized, >>>> independent, secular Jammu and Kashmir. That makes me > someone who does not >>>> endorse SAS Geelani's position. Let's look at thigns > this way, had this been >>>> 1935, I would probably have not been in agreement > with M.K. Gandhi's vision >>>> of >>>> what he thought the future of South > Asia and India ought to be. But that >>>> does >>>> not mean that I would > dismiss Gandhi as irrelevant, or someone to be mocked >>>> and reviled. I > would engage with him politicially, as many currents in India >>>> at that > time did. They were not uncritical of Gandhi (from the left and the >>>> > right) but they knew that Gandhi's voice had a certain resonance. I think>>>> > that >>>> the attitude that people have towards SAS Geelani is not dissimilar. > They >>>> may >>>> not agree with him on many counts, and most Kashmiris that > I know personally >>>> would fit that description. But none would want to > dismiss or demonize him. >>>> Primarily because of his unwillingness to be an > occasional pawn in the hands >>>> of the occupation. >>>> >>>>  I have yet to > come across an Indian politician who is willing to say, on >>>> the >>>> > record, that he PERSONALLY prefers that Jammu and Kashmir stay with > India, >>>> but >>>> will respect whatever the people of Jammu and Kashmir > decide in a free and >>>> fair plebiscite. If that were to be the case, then > we would get much further >>>> than where we are today in Kashmir. I have no > quarrel with those who want >>>> Kashmir to stay in India. Theirs is a point > of view. It needs to be freely >>>> heard, freely debated, and if is > convincing to the people of Jammu and >>>> Kashmir, best of luck to those who > carry the day. What I am against is >>>> maintaining Jammu and Kashmir as > parts of the Indian Union by force. By >>>> violence. By occupation. >>>> >>>> > Finally, I come to the five points, and whether or not, sticking to the >>>> > point >>>> about Kashmir being disputed is an obstacle. Lets face facts. > Kashmir is a >>>> dispute. Every single map of the world that is not printed > in India shows >>>> it, >>>> visually, as a disputed territory. That is why > the Government of India has >>>> to >>>> put its silly ink stamp on atlases. > That is why there is a United Nations >>>> Observer group in Delhi, Islamabad > and Srinagar. United Nations observers >>>> are >>>> present, in the same way, > in say Cyprus (another dispute) Israel / >>>> Palestine, >>>> another dispute. > What is the big deal in saying, yes, it is a dispute. Will >>>> India > disappear if the public secret is admitted to? As far as I am >>>> > concerned >>>> borders, and sovereignty, are less important than the lives of > people. If >>>> discussing a border, and what it means, can be a method to > save lives, then >>>> refusing to do so, is a crime. The Government of India > can offer to >>>> 'discuss' >>>> - sovereignty over those areas of the > India-Tibet border that were taken by >>>> force majeure by British Imperial > power, but it will sacrifice the lives of >>>> hundreds of thousands of people > in order to keep the fetish of the Indian >>>> Union's  soveriegnty and > integrity alive in the case of Jammu and Kashmir. >>>> This policy seems to me > to be totally criminal and misguided. >>>> >>>> Borders are made by human > beings, and can be changed by human beings. The >>>> geographical expression > of the Union of India is not divinely ordained. >>>> Sensible people all over > the world, understand that maps can change, and >>>> that >>>> they do change. > We hope that the map of China can someday be drawn in >>>> Chinese >>>> school > text books without engulfing Tibet. If that can be a reasonable >>>> > desire, >>>> and not be seen as an 'obstruction', why should a similar desire > be seen as >>>> an >>>> obstruction in the case of India and Jammu and > Kashmir. Arnab Goswami >>>> repeatedly used the word 'splittist' yestyerday to > refer to all those who >>>> were >>>> speaking at the meeting at the LTG > yesterday. A word that is used by the >>>> Chinese government and the Chinese > Communist Party whenever it refers to the >>>> Dalai Lama and the movement for > a free Tibet. Are we (our government, >>>> sections >>>> of our media) aping > the Chinese government and the behemoth of the Chinese >>>> Communist Party in > aligning and endorsing ourselves with the fetish of a man >>>> made fiction of > sovereignty. I should hope that we can do better than that. >>>> >>>> best > regards, >>>> >>>> Shuddha >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> > _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion > list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe >>> in the > subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >>> >>> >>> > Shuddhabrata Sengupta >>> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >>> Raqs Media > Collective >>> shuddha at sarai.net >>> www.sarai.net >>> > www.raqsmediacollective.net >>> >>> >>> >>> > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion > list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send > an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> ___________________________ > ______________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To > unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From adityarajbaul at gmail.com Tue Oct 26 16:01:24 2010 From: adityarajbaul at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Baul) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 16:01:24 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?iso-8859-1?q?Azadi=3A_The_Only_Way_=AD_Report_fro?= =?iso-8859-1?q?m_a_Turbulent_Few_Hours_in_Delhi?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My question is: when will you make Rahul PM? On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 3:58 PM, SJabbar wrote: > Aditya Raj Baul, > What exactly is your question? > Sincerely, > Sonia Gandhi > > > On 26/10/10 2:04 PM, "Aditya Raj Baul" wrote: > >> I like it how Sonia Jabbar wants to hold Kashmir hostage to history - > to the >> histories of India and Pakistan, to the history of what Geelani > has or has not >> done, has or has not said. She does not think history > is irrelevant to today's >> people who want azadi today in today's > context - sorry, she says, India has >> signed the Simla agreement, and > Geelani is a fanatic. Thank you. Fair enough, >> I suppose. But will she > apply the same rigours of historical understanding to >> the Indian state > and its actions in Kashmir? Please? > > On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at >> 9:53 AM, SJabbar wrote: >> Dear Shuddha, >> >> I think >> our differences have narrowed considerably as you continue to >> clarify your >> position.  Reading between your lines, you seem to think that I >> have a >> problem with your engaging with Mr. Geelani or that the problem was >> your >> sharing a stage with him. I do not not.  In politics there are no >> pariahs. >>  If someone represents a constituency-- no matter how marginal-- >> that is >> part of the social fabric you cannot ignore it.  It may surprise you >> and >>  many on this list to know that Mr. Geelani and I have known each other >> >> since 1997 and have extremely frank and cordial relations. My problem was> >> with the language of your report of the meeting where your enthusiasm >> >> (“tallest separatist leader,” he is “NOT against dialogue,” “all that they >> >> are asking for is the Right to self-determination”) masked a political >> >> reality that was far more complex and brutal.  However, you have since >> >> clarified that you do not endorse Mr. Geelani’s  politics and you concede >> >> that he may well have been playing to audiences in Delhi,  bringing us more >> >> or less on the same page except that past experience has made me less likely >> >> to share your belief that someone like Mr. Geelani can be “USED” or that you >> >> can  “compel them to come to a degree of moderation in action, and a >> >> greater, more imaginative radicalism in terms of conceptions.” >> >> I am glad >> you agree that people and groups, state and non-state actors who >> have >> committed crimes must stand trial and justice must be done, whether it >> is >> SAS Geelani, Yasin Malik, Syed Salahuddin or various army generals who >> have >> presided over rights abuses while they served in J&K. I have in this >> forum >> written of a Truth & Reconciliation Commission modeled on the South >> African >> experience that should follow the final settlement on J&K. >> >> I am also glad >> that you agree with my point of the futility of creating a >> new nation-state >> in the form of an independent Kashmir ( “I am not for the >> moment saying and >> have never said that an independent Kashmir will be in any >> way a qualitative >> improvement (in terms of a state form) than an occupied >> Kashmir,”).  But you >> seem to believe that it is necessary because “ It may >> at least lead to the >> withdrawal of the reality of a brutal occupation.” By >> this I assume your >> vision of regime change means replacing one democratic >> republic with another >> democratic republic and not an Islamic republic or a >> military state.  In >> which case “the reality of a brutal occupation” must >> mean the withdrawal of >> hundreds of thousands of uniformed men in J&K.  But >> do you really need to >> create a new nation-state in order to demilitarize >> Kashmir? >> >> From 1947 to >> 1989 India’s military presence was restricted to the borders >> and to the few >> garrisons of Srinagar, Baramulla, Leh, Udhampur and Poonch. >> Between 1989- >> 1992 India was being seriously challenged on the military >> front by thousands >> of Kashmiri militants and Islamist mujahideen.  The troop >> surge only >> happened only around 1992-93 and the Indian military was only >> able to >> control the situation around 1995. In 1996 the situation was such >> that it >> was the first time in 6 years it was possible to hold elections and >> yet then >> as in 2002 there were hundreds of assassinations of political >> candidates and >> ordinary workers of political parties (the right to >> self-determination is >> never extended to this group). >> >> Anyway, my point is that 500,000 or 700,000 >> troops were not there as a >> permanent fixture since 1947 and the ‘most >> militarized place in the world’ >> was not always so.  It is both desirable and >> possible to withdraw troops and >> it should be done in a phased manner. >>  Though I have been vocal in >> advocating this since 2001, sadly, I believe it >> will be linked to the final >> settlement and will not happen before because of >> the many sleeper cells of >> militants that get activated the moment there is >> peace or at least as they >> say ‘normalcy’— as we have seen in last week’s >> encounter between troops and >> the JeM in Srinagar.  BTW Srinagar district was >> one of the districts being >> examined for the revocation of the Disturbed >> Areas Act.  This encounter will >> make it extremely difficult for the state >> government to do so. >> >> >>  I am glad you agree with me that the 4-point >> formula can be a solution to >> the vexed Kashmir issue, however your reading >> of what went wrong and putting >> the onus of the failure of implementation >> squarely on New Delhi’s shoulder >> is wrong.  Yes, there were delays on New >> Delhi’s side, but those were not >> remarkable considering a political >> consensus had to be built within the >> country (I think it was in 2008 during >> the Amarnath Yatra that I explained >> the entire process at length in this >> forum).  Very simply what happened was >> that the Lawyer’s Movement in >> Pakistan overtook the Kashmir process and once >> Mushrraf was ousted and >> Benazir was assassinated the country plunged into >> political turmoil and the >> Zaradari government was too weak to break from >> Pakistan’s traditional stand >> of the UN Resolutions.  Both Gen Kayani and the >> ISI were not comfortable >> with Musharraf’s radical departure from tradition. >> Both believe Pakistan’s >> best interests are served by keeping the Kashmir pot >> boiling, maintaining >> India as ‘enemy no 1’, encouraging extremism in >> Afghanistan to maintain >> ‘strategic depth,’ and to scuttle any influence >> India may wield in >> Afghanistan.  So, as much as I and many others would like >> to see the 4-point >> formula being at least discussed, under the present >> Pakistani dispensation >> it is highly unlikely. >> >> When you advocate a plebiscite and you believe that >> the azadi movement must >> be peaceful then you must also accommodate the >> possibility of a partitioned >> J&K, where large sections of Jammu and all of >> Ladakh would not vote for >> Pakistan (and under what UN Resolution would the >> option of independence be >> granted since NO UN Resolution holds that option >> and no Kashmiri to date has >> appealed to the UN to pass a resolution to >> include the option?) And how >> would you persuade Pakistan to allow a >> plebiscite in areas under their >> control?  And what is your opinion of the >> vast region of Gilgit-Baltistan >> that by Pakistani law has been severed from >> the state of Jammu & Kashmir and >> where its citizens have NO fundamental >> rights as its constitutional status >> has not as yet been determined? >> >> I am >> asking these questions not to score points but for us to locate what is >> >> moral or desirable within what is real and possible not just for Kashmiris >> >> who are but a small part of the state, but of all the people of Jammu & >> >> Kashmir. >> >> Best, >> Sonia >> >> >> >> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> My question is, what do we do >> next. I think that this means that the people >>> 'learn' to USE them, to >> compel them to come to a degree of moderation in >>> action, and a greater, >> more imaginative radicalism in terms of conceptions. >>> That is why, the >> current situation in Kashmir, where the 'Leaders' are being >>> 'Led' by people >> is interesting to me. I find it POSITIVE that they have to do >>> flip-flops so >> often, from Hartal-to-No Hartal- to Hartal again. This shows >>> that they are >> NOT running the street. Things are unpredictable. The change in >>> the >> 'temperature' of SAS Geelani's statements may be as much due to the fact >>> >> that he is no longer in a position to call all the shots. Therefore, he has >>> >> less to lose by 'changing' his tenor. >>> >>> There is a way in which the >> language of politics has changed, and it has >>> changed because of the way in >> which people are communicating on all sorts of >>> fora. Though they may, out >> of affection, still say that only Geelani will do >>> the Tarjumani, the truth >> is, everyone is doing their own Tarjumani now. and >>> that is the hardest nut >> for the Government of India to crack. As an anarchist, >>> I find this >> situation, of the actual, concrete, refusal of 'representational >>> forms of >> politics' . however ephemeral it might be at present, quite >>> delightful. SO >> much so, that a 'theatre' of leadership continues, but >>> actuality presumes a >> totally different language of politics. >>> >>> I find this a fertile situation, >> one latent with possibilities, for everyone. >>> >>> As for your other point, >> about how close we all were to the beginnings of the >>> long road towards a >> solution with Musharraf's four point formula - I agree >>> with you. But, then, >> it was the Government of India that scuttled that >>> possibility. If the >> government of India had acted then, on what was on offer, >>> perhaps things >> would not have come to the situation where they are at present. >>> Too much >> has gone wrong since then. I am not a nationalist of any sort, and to >>> me, >> ALL nation states, and all nation states in waiting,  are ultimately the>> >> actors of the tragedies of their own making and choosing, >>> So, basically, I >> am not for the moment saying and have never said that an >>> independent >> Kashmir will be in any way a qualitative improvement (in terms of >>> a state >> form) than an occupied Kashmir, but, It may at least lead to the >>> withdrawal >> of the reality of a brutal occupation. >>> >>> For me, whatever makes that >> possible, I am prepared to accept. There were, and >>> remain many >> possibilities that span the spectrum from where the situation is >>> at present >> to Indpendence or accession to Pakistan. But thinking about those >>> >> possibilities require all Indians to stop thinking only out of the Indian>> >> nationalist box. You know very well, that many different kinds of >> arrangement >>> could have been explored. including maximum autonomy under the >> aegis of a >>> joint India-Pakistan guarantee, which is what I understand the >> Musharraf >>> formula to have been, But the bottom line is, whatever is worked >> out has to be >>> acceptable to the popular will, hence a plebiscite with many >> options on offer, >>> and the freedom to campaign for the many options in an >> atomsphere free of >>> coercion. >>> >>> Realistically speaking, I do not think >> that the Government of India has the >>> imagination any longer to try and >> think out of the box. If it can, that would >>> be great. But, going by the >> ostrich like attitude of the Government in the >>> face of the obvious >> alienation of the Kashmiri people, I very much doubt it. >>> If they had that >> intelligence, they could have stopped the killings by the >>> security forces a >> long time ago. >>> >>> Therefore, the only remaining possibility for ending the >> occupation seems to >>> me to be independence for Kashmir, in the short term, >> under the custodianship >>> of the United Nations, like happened in Kosovo.Of >> course, I strongly assert >>> that the political road to this must be through >> non-violent means, through >>> mass political participation, of as many >> different sections of the population >>> as possible. It will be painful, for >> many Indians to accept, but in the long >>> term, and in the absence of any >> other imaginative solutions thought through by >>> the Indian political elites >> (that chance has come, and sadly, gone) it will be >>> in the best interests of >> the people of India. Of course, the challenge for the >>> people of Kashmir >> would be to think through a vision of independence that does >>> not have them >> switch slavery to Indian occupation to slavery to the Pakistani >>> militarist >> elite. The challenge would be to come up with proposals for a >>> >> demilitarized, non-aggressive Kashmir that can preserve its cultural and >>> >> social openness and liberality, that can take back displaced minorities, >> and >>> can offer them genuine, not token safety and security. That is the hard >> work >>> that imaginative politics will have to undertake in Kashmir. And we >> should >>> never stop expecting and demanding that from all our Kashmiri >> friends. I >>> never, ever cease doing so. >>> >>>  In the long term, this fact, >> an Independent Kashmir, could actually be the >>> cornerstone of a broad South >> Asian Union (modelled on the EU) which could >>> bring the different >> nationalities (there may be many by then) of South Asia >>> under an >> arrangement of a free trade zone, a visa free zone, a customs and >>> tarrifs >> union, a charter on shared ecological concerns, and comprehensive >>> >> demilitarization. An independent Kashmir may be the first step in that >>> >> direction. Of course this need not happen. Things could get worse if >> Kashmir >>> separates. I am well aware and cognizant of that possibility. But, >> at least, >>> once the dust and din settles, in our lifetime, there is a >> likelihood that >>> once everyone has climbed off their nationalist high >> horses, things might be >>> worked out, amicably and reasonably between all the >> stake holders of a future >>> free association of South Asian States and >> Territories. That, I think is the >>> only guarantee for peace in our region. I >> know for certain that an India and >>> Pakistan that continue to hold on to >> their respective fragments of Jammu and >>> Kashmir, and an India that enforces >> that occupation by military force cannot >>> contribute to peace in the >> region. >>> >>> That is why, I think that freedom for Kashmir, and also, >> incidentally for >>> Tibet, is key to long term peace and stability in Asia, >> because both these >>> developments would reduce the necessity of the big >> poweres of tomorrow - China >>> and India and to a lesser extent - Pakistan >> from being aggressive nuclear >>> powered rivals, and would perhaps, perhaps, >> open out the true possibility of >>> what a worthwhile Asian Century really >> ought to be like. Otherwise, I am >>> afraid that we will replay the disasters >> of the European history of the >>> Twentieth Century, from the First World War >> onwards, on the soil of Twenty >>> First Century Asia. >>> >>> >>> I hope i have >> made myself clear >>> >>> best, >>> >>> >>> Shuddha >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On >> 23-Oct-10, at 7:45 PM, SJabbar wrote: >>> >>>> Sorry for cross-posting but I >> sent this message out in the morning as a >>>> response to Shuddha¹s 2nd post >> but received an automated email saying my >>>> post had to be reviewed by the >> moderator.  Since I haven¹t received a >>>> response (Monica??!) I assume it >> was not approved or got lost in the vast >>>> belly of the Sarai computer! >>>> >> ------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> >>>> Shuddha, let us take your >> arguments and apply them to the other side.  Modi >>>> belongs to a political >> party that was in power and he was at the helm when >>>> the 2002 Gujarat >> carnage took place.  He may not have explicitly directed it >>>> but he >> certainly presided over the violence.  What Modi is like as a person, >>>> >> whether he is gentle, cultured, cries at the funeral of his friends or his >>>> >> rivals are of no concern to me  (It is well known that Goebbels was a >>>> >> cultured man and had a refined taste in music and the arts and of course >>>> >> Jinnah ate ham sandwiches). What matters to me is that the man presided >> over >>>> the worst kind of violence and has refused to, till date, condemn >> it >>>> unambiguously.  Instead he and his party continue to cite the >> economic >>>> progress of Muslims in Gujarat to counter it.  The subtext of >> this‹ and this >>>> is a South Asian disease‹ is let us forget the past, >> galtiyan dono taraf se >>>> huin hain (³action-reaction²), and let us move on. >>  Whether it is the >>>> various political parties in India who have incited, >> controlled and presided >>>> over the worst communal or sectarian violence from >> the 1930¹s to the present >>>> day, or the Pakistani army role in the mass >> rapes of Bangladesh or the Sri >>>> Lankan army¹s role against Tamil civilians, >> every political party in these >>>> countries seem to be inflicted by the same >> disease. >>>> Having said that, I believe it is the role of civil society to be >> vigilant, >>>> to be rigorous, to not succumb to the same logic. >>>> >>>> I know >> that you have been critical of fundamentalist politics in this forum >>>> and >> others, whether it is Hindutva or Islamist and that is why it surprised >>>> me >> to read your post on the LTG event.  You say ³You may be right when you>>> >> say that SAS Geelani may be saying one thing in Delhi and another in >>>> >> Srinagar.  I am not here to judge the sincerity, or lack of,  or >> ambiguity, >>>> of these statements.²  Why are you not here to judge the >> sincerity or lack >>>> thereof of these statements?  Surely, one is always >> judging political >>>> parties when they claim one or another thing?  How does >> one align oneself >>>> politically if one goes simply by manifestos and not by >> actions?  Judging >>>> and evaluating is a constant process.  Mamta Bannerjee >> may have been one >>>> thing as a member of the opposition but how will she be >> when she comes to >>>> power?  One reads her statements, one watches carefully >> her actions >>>> following her statements.  If they don¹t gel, we believe her >> to be >>>> insincere. >>>> >>>> You write: ³I am amazed that this recognition is >> not getting the space I >>>> think it deserves, simply as a NEWS story. ³ Do >> you remember Atal Behari >>>> Vajpayee shed tears after the demolition of the >> Babri Masjid and Advani >>>> described it as ³the saddest day of his life.² >> Should these isolated moments >>>> and statements be highlighted and privileged >> as representing the 2 men¹s >>>> position on the Babri Masjid or should one >> judge them over a longer period >>>> of time, weighing their statements and >> their actions? >>>> >>>> As for Mr. Geelani and evaluating his actions, do you >> believe a responsible >>>> leader ought to lead from the front or give calls to >> his followers to engage >>>> in actions that will cause injury or even death >> from the safety of his home? >>>> Mr. Geelani is fully aware that in any part >> of this planet if you pelt >>>> stones at a man with a gun, there is a fair >> chance that the man with the gun >>>> is going to retaliate.  When he was >> released from jail he made a fine >>>> statement calling for the end of the >> hartaal calendar, saying that this was >>>> not the way forward, that these >> protests could not be sustained, that life >>>> could not come to a standstill >> (btw, the Sopore fruit mandi, his >>>> constituency, continued to function >> through this entire period hartaal >>>> calendar or not).  These were wise >> words from a man who has been in politics >>>> for years.  Wise words or the >> thinking of the ISI, I¹m not sure because the >>>> words were echoed by Syed >> Salahuddin.  What follows is interesting: >>>> Salahuddin¹s effigy is burnt and >> a rumour is floated that Mr. Geelani is >>>> selling out to Omar Abdullah. >>  Does Mr. Geelani stand by his words?  Does he >>>> do what Gandhi does after >> Chauri Chaura?  No, of course not.  He does a >>>> total U-turn and starts >> competing with Masrat Alam on the calendars, >>>> subjecting the people of the >> valley to more misery.  What do ordinary >>>> Kashmiris feel about the >> continuation of this absurd form of protest where >>>> they and not the >> Government of India suffer?  You may find the answer in the >>>> fact that >> there was not a single protest when Masrat Alam was arrested. >>>> >>>> Again >> Mr. Geelani saying he Œpersonally¹ favours the accession to Pakistan >>>> but >> will Œabide by¹ what the people of J&K want is neither here nor there. >>>> >> What you see as a maturing position may be read as an opportunistic one >>>> >> until such time as it is tested.  As I have already shown in my last post >>>> >> Mr. Geelani, his political party and his ideology have since the mid-90¹s >>>> >> shown no such respectful accommodation of the political views of others. >>  In >>>> fact any divergence from this view has been silenced by the bullet. >>  If this >>>> is someone¹s history‹ and as much as I should wish it otherwise-- >> it is >>>> very, very difficult for me to suspend my cynicism and turn >> enthusiastic >>>> cartwheels on the basis of one speech to a select audience in >> New Delhi. >>>> >>>> With reference to your point about borders:  The GoI >> acknowledges that >>>> Kashmir is an ³issue² between India and Pakistan.  As I >> have mentioned in my >>>> first post, it objects to the word ³dispute² as it >> internationalizes >>>> Kashmir, ignores the Simla Agreement and takes it out of >> the domain of >>>> bilateral talks back to the UN.  If you want my personal >> opinion on this >>>> (and I have argued on this list in the past), I agree with >> this stand.  I >>>> see the UN as a forum where, sadly, world powers have >> always manipulated >>>> nations and it certainly does not have the moral >> standing after Iraq and >>>> Afghanistan to really mediate anywhere in the >> world.  India and Pakistan >>>> need to, and can settle the issue taking into >> account the wishes of all the >>>> people of J&K as it stood in 1947.  As I >> have argued in the past and as >>>> Gen.Musharraf recently said on an NDTV >> interview that India and Pakistan >>>> were very close to drafting an agreement >> based on his 4-point formula. >>>> Interestingly, various interpretations of >> this 4-point formula were thrown >>>> up by all shades of political parties but >> there was a broad consensus on >>>> this whether from the mainstream groups or >> the separatists.  The only leader >>>> that rejected this was Mr. Geelani who >> insisted that the Kashmir ³dispute² >>>> be solved on the UN Resolutions of >> 1948! >>>> >>>> As for borders themselves: what is Europe today but a borderless >> continent? >>>> You critique the idea of the nation-state and yet you want to >> re-invent the >>>> wheel by supporting yet another nation-state in independent >> Kashmir.  Why, >>>> when a 21st c. solution in the 4-point formula, similar to >> the form and >>>> content of the EU, could be in the making? >>>> >>>> Best >> wishes, >>>> Sonia >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 22/10/10 8:10 PM, "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" >> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> Dear Sonia, (don't worry Pawan, its a >> lot less than '3000 lines') >>>>> >>>>> I said - " I do not agree with much of >> what Geelani Saheb represents >>>>> politically, or ideologically, but I have >> no hesitation in saying that what >>>>> he >>>>> said yesterday, was surprising >> for its gentleness, for its consideration, >>>>> for >>>>> its moderation, even >> for its liberality and open heartedness." >>>>> >>>>> What part of this sentence >> seems to suggest that I am 'aligning' with SAS >>>>> Geelani. The 'I do not >> agree with much' does not seem to indicate alignment, >>>>> or endorsement to >> me. The rest of the statement is a statement of fact. Were >>>>> SAS Geelani to >> have said words that were inflammatory yesterday, I would not >>>>> have >> hesitated to said that he had. Allow me to elaborate by way of an >>>>> >> example >>>>> - I have never been in agreement with the political philosophy >> of >>>>> M.K.Gandhi, >>>>> but I never make the mistake of saying that my >> disagreement with Gandhi (my >>>>> refusal to endorse Gandhian ideology and >> what it means politically) amounts >>>>> to >>>>> my failure to recognize >> Gandhi's gentleness, his consideration, his >>>>> moderation, his liberality >> and its open heartedness. >>>>> >>>>>  I have been strongly critical Islamist >> politics, including on this forum, >>>>> whenever I have considered it >> necessary to do so. That is one thing, and it >>>>> is >>>>> where I would >> differ from SAS Geelani, explicitly, categorically, unless he >>>>> makes a >> statement, like the Mirwaiz did recently, abjuring an 'Islamist >>>>> >> future >>>>> for Kashmir'. But to say that SAS Geelani has never expressed >> regret for the >>>>> violence that rocked even the pro-Azadi camp from within >> is specious. >>>>> Kashmiri >>>>> polticians of all hues routinely issue >> condemnations of incidents of >>>>> terrorism, and targetted assasinations. >> Geelani, to my knowledge, has not >>>>> been >>>>> any exception. Eyewitnesses >> speak of seeing him weeping at Abdul Ghani >>>>> Lone's >>>>> funeral. I do not >> know, nor do I care, whether these tears were genuine. All >>>>> I >>>>> am >> saying is that if the man has not said that he celebrates the assasins of>>>> >> the elder Mirwaiz, or Abdul Ghani Lone, or the attacks on Dr. Shameema >> that >>>>> you mention, then, it is unfair to accuse him of 'Not Saying' the >> 'not >>>>> saying'. He condemns assasinations. He does not celebrate the >> assasin. This >>>>> means that he cannot be accused of being the source of the >> assasination, >>>>> unless other concrete evidence is brought to bear upon the >> case. >>>>> >>>>>  You may be right when you say that SAS Geelani may be saying >> one thing in >>>>> Delhi and another in Srinagar.  I am not here to judge the >> sincerity, or >>>>> lack >>>>> of,  or ambiguity, of these statements. I think >> politically, the significant >>>>> thing is that whatever he may have said in >> the past, SAS Geelani, HAS to >>>>> speak >>>>> a language today that is not >> secterian. He may have done so in the past. Let >>>>> us remember that he was >> an elected member of the J&K assembly for more than >>>>> one term in the past, >> and that means he had to swear fealty of some sort to >>>>> the Indian >> constitution. Judging by this, we should be able to evaluate his >>>>> >> 'Islamist' commitments in the light of his sometime loyalty to an >> apparently >>>>> secular constitution. If the sake of argument, we say that we >> should take >>>>> seriously what came 'after' as representing the 'maturing' of >> his position, >>>>> then, if his avowedly 'secterian' / Islamist / Pro-Pakistan >> phase came after >>>>> his phase as an MLA of the J&K assembly, then, so too >> has this 'current' >>>>> phase >>>>> come 'after' his secterian posturing. I am >> not the one who needs to split >>>>> these hairs, but clearly, if some emphasis >> is bieng given to chronology as a >>>>> way of attributing the man's politics >> to the man's biography, then let's >>>>> stay >>>>> consistent, and say, that if >> the current SAS Geelani is saying things that >>>>> don't seem to require the >> automatic assumption of an Isamic state (which is >>>>> what we would expect >> from the 'old' Geelani, then, we have every reason to >>>>> take it as >> seriously as when he made his decision to abandon 'mainstream' >>>>> electoral >> politics in Jammu and Kashmir for the hardline fringe. >>>>> >>>>> Indeed, I >> would go so far as to say that as far as we are concerned, we >>>>> should >>>>> >> assume, and hold him, and his followers, responsible to the Œevolution¹ >> of >>>>> their statements, as they occur. If he goes back on the broad, >> liberal >>>>> nature >>>>> of a vision for Azad kashmir (which, incidentally, >> among other things, >>>>> included the somewhat whimsical detail of a provision >> of compensation for >>>>> damages were a believing Muslim to damage a bottle of >> alchohl of a >>>>> non-believer), then, we should hold him responsible for that >> regression. He >>>>> made a speech that was refreshingly free of Islamist >> rhetoric yesterday, >>>>> that >>>>> spoke in the broad terms of 'Insaaniyat' - >> Humanity. If Atal Behari Vajpayee >>>>> can be appreciated, as indeed he should >> have been, for speaking in terms of >>>>> 'Insaaniyat' when it came to thinking >> about the solution to the question of >>>>> Jammu and Kashmir, why could the >> mainstream media not pick up the fact that >>>>> at >>>>> least in stated terms, >> SAS Geelani was making as major a move, by invoking >>>>> 'Insaaniyat' over >> secterian considerations, exactly as Vajpayee had done. >>>>> Recognizing this >> does not require us to align with, or endorse, either SAS >>>>> Geelani, or >> Atal Behari Vajpayee, it simply requires us to register a fact >>>>> that a >> major move is in process. That politics is being transformed, even as >>>>> we >> speak. I am amazed that this recognition is being painted as 'alignment, >>>>> >> or >>>>> endorsement'. I am amazed that this recognition is not getting the >> space I >>>>> think it deserves, simply as a NEWS story. SAS Geelani says he >> wishes India >>>>> to >>>>> be a strong country, a regional power, that he >> supports (in principle) a >>>>> future permanent place for India on the United >> Natons Security Council, once >>>>> Kashmir is liberated   - in other words, he >> is saying, let us go, and we >>>>> will >>>>> stand with you, dont you think >> this is BIG news. That is what I was trying >>>>> to >>>>> talk about. Trying to >> talk about does not make me a camp follower of SAS >>>>> Geelani or any other >> politician, in India, Kashmir, or elsewhere. >>>>> >>>>> My sense is, the >> movement for Azadi in Kashmir has gone beyond the persona >>>>> of >>>>> SAS >> Geelani, and while he is universally respected for his integrity and >>>>> >> incorruptability, his word is by no means, Œlaw¹. He, and other leaders >> like >>>>> him, are being Œled¹ as much as they are Œleading¹ the people they >> claim to >>>>> represent. Part of this process means giving up the secterian >> rhetoric that >>>>> people in Kashmir genuinely feel alienated by. We should >> welcome this >>>>> development. >>>>> >>>>> Now, I come to the views that he >> holds regarding independence and merger >>>>> with >>>>> Pakistan. He has said, >> including in his recent interview with Seema Mustafa >>>>> that he PERSONALLY >> prefers accession to Pakistan, but that he is willing to >>>>> abide by >> whatever the people of Jammu and Kashmir decide. I do not think >>>>> that >>>>> >> the people of Jammu and Kashmir have a future with Pakistan.So, I >> disagree >>>>> with SAS Geelani's personal view. I strongly argue for a >> demilitarized, >>>>> independent, secular Jammu and Kashmir. That makes me >> someone who does not >>>>> endorse SAS Geelani's position. Let's look at thigns >> this way, had this been >>>>> 1935, I would probably have not been in agreement >> with M.K. Gandhi's vision >>>>> of >>>>> what he thought the future of South >> Asia and India ought to be. But that >>>>> does >>>>> not mean that I would >> dismiss Gandhi as irrelevant, or someone to be mocked >>>>> and reviled. I >> would engage with him politicially, as many currents in India >>>>> at that >> time did. They were not uncritical of Gandhi (from the left and the >>>>> >> right) but they knew that Gandhi's voice had a certain resonance. I think>>>> >> that >>>>> the attitude that people have towards SAS Geelani is not dissimilar. >> They >>>>> may >>>>> not agree with him on many counts, and most Kashmiris that >> I know personally >>>>> would fit that description. But none would want to >> dismiss or demonize him. >>>>> Primarily because of his unwillingness to be an >> occasional pawn in the hands >>>>> of the occupation. >>>>> >>>>>  I have yet to >> come across an Indian politician who is willing to say, on >>>>> the >>>>> >> record, that he PERSONALLY prefers that Jammu and Kashmir stay with >> India, >>>>> but >>>>> will respect whatever the people of Jammu and Kashmir >> decide in a free and >>>>> fair plebiscite. If that were to be the case, then >> we would get much further >>>>> than where we are today in Kashmir. I have no >> quarrel with those who want >>>>> Kashmir to stay in India. Theirs is a point >> of view. It needs to be freely >>>>> heard, freely debated, and if is >> convincing to the people of Jammu and >>>>> Kashmir, best of luck to those who >> carry the day. What I am against is >>>>> maintaining Jammu and Kashmir as >> parts of the Indian Union by force. By >>>>> violence. By occupation. >>>>> >>>>> >> Finally, I come to the five points, and whether or not, sticking to the >>>>> >> point >>>>> about Kashmir being disputed is an obstacle. Lets face facts. >> Kashmir is a >>>>> dispute. Every single map of the world that is not printed >> in India shows >>>>> it, >>>>> visually, as a disputed territory. That is why >> the Government of India has >>>>> to >>>>> put its silly ink stamp on atlases. >> That is why there is a United Nations >>>>> Observer group in Delhi, Islamabad >> and Srinagar. United Nations observers >>>>> are >>>>> present, in the same way, >> in say Cyprus (another dispute) Israel / >>>>> Palestine, >>>>> another dispute. >> What is the big deal in saying, yes, it is a dispute. Will >>>>> India >> disappear if the public secret is admitted to? As far as I am >>>>> >> concerned >>>>> borders, and sovereignty, are less important than the lives of >> people. If >>>>> discussing a border, and what it means, can be a method to >> save lives, then >>>>> refusing to do so, is a crime. The Government of India >> can offer to >>>>> 'discuss' >>>>> - sovereignty over those areas of the >> India-Tibet border that were taken by >>>>> force majeure by British Imperial >> power, but it will sacrifice the lives of >>>>> hundreds of thousands of people >> in order to keep the fetish of the Indian >>>>> Union's  soveriegnty and >> integrity alive in the case of Jammu and Kashmir. >>>>> This policy seems to me >> to be totally criminal and misguided. >>>>> >>>>> Borders are made by human >> beings, and can be changed by human beings. The >>>>> geographical expression >> of the Union of India is not divinely ordained. >>>>> Sensible people all over >> the world, understand that maps can change, and >>>>> that >>>>> they do change. >> We hope that the map of China can someday be drawn in >>>>> Chinese >>>>> school >> text books without engulfing Tibet. If that can be a reasonable >>>>> >> desire, >>>>> and not be seen as an 'obstruction', why should a similar desire >> be seen as >>>>> an >>>>> obstruction in the case of India and Jammu and >> Kashmir. Arnab Goswami >>>>> repeatedly used the word 'splittist' yestyerday to >> refer to all those who >>>>> were >>>>> speaking at the meeting at the LTG >> yesterday. A word that is used by the >>>>> Chinese government and the Chinese >> Communist Party whenever it refers to the >>>>> Dalai Lama and the movement for >> a free Tibet. Are we (our government, >>>>> sections >>>>> of our media) aping >> the Chinese government and the behemoth of the Chinese >>>>> Communist Party in >> aligning and endorsing ourselves with the fetish of a man >>>>> made fiction of >> sovereignty. I should hope that we can do better than that. >>>>> >>>>> best >> regards, >>>>> >>>>> Shuddha >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion >> list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: >> send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe >>>> in the >> subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: >> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >>>> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >>>> Raqs Media >> Collective >>>> shuddha at sarai.net >>>> www.sarai.net >>>> >> www.raqsmediacollective.net >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion >> list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send >> an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject >> header. >> To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: >> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > ___________________________ >> ______________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the >> city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To >> unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: >> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > From sonia.jabbar at gmail.com Tue Oct 26 16:10:32 2010 From: sonia.jabbar at gmail.com (SJabbar) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 16:10:32 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?iso-8859-1?q?Azadi=3A_The_Only_Way_=AD_Report_fro?= =?iso-8859-1?q?m_a_Turbulent_Few_Hours_in_Delhi?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Oh whenever you want, dear boy, since you believe in making history. Atilla D. Hun On 26/10/10 4:01 PM, "Aditya Raj Baul" wrote: > My question is: when will you make Rahul PM? On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 3:58 PM, > SJabbar wrote: > Aditya Raj Baul, > What exactly is > your question? > Sincerely, > Sonia Gandhi > > > On 26/10/10 2:04 PM, "Aditya > Raj Baul" wrote: > >> I like it how Sonia Jabbar > wants to hold Kashmir hostage to history - > to the >> histories of India and > Pakistan, to the history of what Geelani > has or has not >> done, has or has > not said. She does not think history > is irrelevant to today's >> people who > want azadi today in today's > context - sorry, she says, India has >> signed > the Simla agreement, and > Geelani is a fanatic. Thank you. Fair enough, >> I > suppose. But will she > apply the same rigours of historical understanding > to >> the Indian state > and its actions in Kashmir? Please? > > On Mon, Oct > 25, 2010 at >> 9:53 AM, SJabbar wrote: >> Dear > Shuddha, >> >> I think >> our differences have narrowed considerably as you > continue to >> clarify your >> position.  Reading between your lines, you seem > to think that I >> have a >> problem with your engaging with Mr. Geelani or > that the problem was >> your >> sharing a stage with him. I do not not.  In > politics there are no >> pariahs. >>  If someone represents a constituency-- > no matter how marginal-- >> that is >> part of the social fabric you cannot > ignore it.  It may surprise you >> and >>  many on this list to know that Mr. > Geelani and I have known each other >> >> since 1997 and have extremely frank > and cordial relations. My problem was> >> with the language of your report of > the meeting where your enthusiasm >> >> (“tallest separatist leader,” he is > “NOT against dialogue,” “all that they >> >> are asking for is the Right to > self-determination”) masked a political >> >> reality that was far more > complex and brutal.  However, you have since >> >> clarified that you do not > endorse Mr. Geelani’s  politics and you concede >> >> that he may well have > been playing to audiences in Delhi,  bringing us more >> >> or less on the > same page except that past experience has made me less likely >> >> to share > your belief that someone like Mr. Geelani can be “USED” or that you >> >> can >  “compel them to come to a degree of moderation in action, and a >> >> > greater, more imaginative radicalism in terms of conceptions.” >> >> I am > glad >> you agree that people and groups, state and non-state actors who >> > have >> committed crimes must stand trial and justice must be done, whether > it >> is >> SAS Geelani, Yasin Malik, Syed Salahuddin or various army generals > who >> have >> presided over rights abuses while they served in J&K. I have in > this >> forum >> written of a Truth & Reconciliation Commission modeled on the > South >> African >> experience that should follow the final settlement on > J&K. >> >> I am also glad >> that you agree with my point of the futility of > creating a >> new nation-state >> in the form of an independent Kashmir ( “I > am not for the >> moment saying and >> have never said that an independent > Kashmir will be in any >> way a qualitative >> improvement (in terms of a > state form) than an occupied >> Kashmir,”).  But you >> seem to believe that > it is necessary because “ It may >> at least lead to the >> withdrawal of the > reality of a brutal occupation.” By >> this I assume your >> vision of regime > change means replacing one democratic >> republic with another >> democratic > republic and not an Islamic republic or a >> military state.  In >> which case > “the reality of a brutal occupation” must >> mean the withdrawal of >> > hundreds of thousands of uniformed men in J&K.  But >> do you really need > to >> create a new nation-state in order to demilitarize >> Kashmir? >> >> > From 1947 to >> 1989 India’s military presence was restricted to the > borders >> and to the few >> garrisons of Srinagar, Baramulla, Leh, Udhampur > and Poonch. >> Between 1989- >> 1992 India was being seriously challenged on > the military >> front by thousands >> of Kashmiri militants and Islamist > mujahideen.  The troop >> surge only >> happened only around 1992-93 and the > Indian military was only >> able to >> control the situation around 1995. In > 1996 the situation was such >> that it >> was the first time in 6 years it was > possible to hold elections and >> yet then >> as in 2002 there were hundreds > of assassinations of political >> candidates and >> ordinary workers of > political parties (the right to >> self-determination is >> never extended to > this group). >> >> Anyway, my point is that 500,000 or 700,000 >> troops were > not there as a >> permanent fixture since 1947 and the ‘most >> militarized > place in the world’ >> was not always so.  It is both desirable and >> > possible to withdraw troops and >> it should be done in a phased manner. >> >  Though I have been vocal in >> advocating this since 2001, sadly, I believe > it >> will be linked to the final >> settlement and will not happen before > because of >> the many sleeper cells of >> militants that get activated the > moment there is >> peace or at least as they >> say ‘normalcy’— as we have > seen in last week’s >> encounter between troops and >> the JeM in Srinagar. >  BTW Srinagar district was >> one of the districts being >> examined for the > revocation of the Disturbed >> Areas Act.  This encounter will >> make it > extremely difficult for the state >> government to do so. >> >> >>  I am glad > you agree with me that the 4-point >> formula can be a solution to >> the > vexed Kashmir issue, however your reading >> of what went wrong and putting >> > the onus of the failure of implementation >> squarely on New Delhi’s > shoulder >> is wrong.  Yes, there were delays on New >> Delhi’s side, but > those were not >> remarkable considering a political >> consensus had to be > built within the >> country (I think it was in 2008 during >> the Amarnath > Yatra that I explained >> the entire process at length in this >> forum). >  Very simply what happened was >> that the Lawyer’s Movement in >> Pakistan > overtook the Kashmir process and once >> Mushrraf was ousted and >> Benazir > was assassinated the country plunged into >> political turmoil and the >> > Zaradari government was too weak to break from >> Pakistan’s traditional > stand >> of the UN Resolutions.  Both Gen Kayani and the >> ISI were not > comfortable >> with Musharraf’s radical departure from tradition. >> Both > believe Pakistan’s >> best interests are served by keeping the Kashmir pot >> > boiling, maintaining >> India as ‘enemy no 1’, encouraging extremism in >> > Afghanistan to maintain >> ‘strategic depth,’ and to scuttle any influence >> > India may wield in >> Afghanistan.  So, as much as I and many others would > like >> to see the 4-point >> formula being at least discussed, under the > present >> Pakistani dispensation >> it is highly unlikely. >> >> When you > advocate a plebiscite and you believe that >> the azadi movement must >> be > peaceful then you must also accommodate the >> possibility of a partitioned >> > J&K, where large sections of Jammu and all of >> Ladakh would not vote for >> > Pakistan (and under what UN Resolution would the >> option of independence > be >> granted since NO UN Resolution holds that option >> and no Kashmiri to > date has >> appealed to the UN to pass a resolution to >> include the option?) > And how >> would you persuade Pakistan to allow a >> plebiscite in areas under > their >> control?  And what is your opinion of the >> vast region of > Gilgit-Baltistan >> that by Pakistani law has been severed from >> the state > of Jammu & Kashmir and >> where its citizens have NO fundamental >> rights as > its constitutional status >> has not as yet been determined? >> >> I am >> > asking these questions not to score points but for us to locate what is >> >> > moral or desirable within what is real and possible not just for > Kashmiris >> >> who are but a small part of the state, but of all the people > of Jammu & >> >> Kashmir. >> >> Best, >> Sonia >> >> >> >> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> > My question is, what do we do >> next. I think that this means that the > people >>> 'learn' to USE them, to >> compel them to come to a degree of > moderation in >>> action, and a greater, >> more imaginative radicalism in > terms of conceptions. >>> That is why, the >> current situation in Kashmir, > where the 'Leaders' are being >>> 'Led' by people >> is interesting to me. I > find it POSITIVE that they have to do >>> flip-flops so >> often, from > Hartal-to-No Hartal- to Hartal again. This shows >>> that they are >> NOT > running the street. Things are unpredictable. The change in >>> the >> > 'temperature' of SAS Geelani's statements may be as much due to the > fact >>> >> that he is no longer in a position to call all the shots. > Therefore, he has >>> >> less to lose by 'changing' his tenor. >>> >>> There > is a way in which the >> language of politics has changed, and it has >>> > changed because of the way in >> which people are communicating on all sorts > of >>> fora. Though they may, out >> of affection, still say that only Geelani > will do >>> the Tarjumani, the truth >> is, everyone is doing their own > Tarjumani now. and >>> that is the hardest nut >> for the Government of India > to crack. As an anarchist, >>> I find this >> situation, of the actual, > concrete, refusal of 'representational >>> forms of >> politics' . however > ephemeral it might be at present, quite >>> delightful. SO >> much so, that a > 'theatre' of leadership continues, but >>> actuality presumes a >> totally > different language of politics. >>> >>> I find this a fertile situation, >> > one latent with possibilities, for everyone. >>> >>> As for your other > point, >> about how close we all were to the beginnings of the >>> long road > towards a >> solution with Musharraf's four point formula - I agree >>> with > you. But, then, >> it was the Government of India that scuttled that >>> > possibility. If the >> government of India had acted then, on what was on > offer, >>> perhaps things >> would not have come to the situation where they > are at present. >>> Too much >> has gone wrong since then. I am not a > nationalist of any sort, and to >>> me, >> ALL nation states, and all nation > states in waiting,  are ultimately the>> >> actors of the tragedies of their > own making and choosing, >>> So, basically, I >> am not for the moment saying > and have never said that an >>> independent >> Kashmir will be in any way a > qualitative improvement (in terms of >>> a state >> form) than an occupied > Kashmir, but, It may at least lead to the >>> withdrawal >> of the reality of > a brutal occupation. >>> >>> For me, whatever makes that >> possible, I am > prepared to accept. There were, and >>> remain many >> possibilities that span > the spectrum from where the situation is >>> at present >> to Indpendence or > accession to Pakistan. But thinking about those >>> >> possibilities require > all Indians to stop thinking only out of the Indian>> >> nationalist box. You > know very well, that many different kinds of >> arrangement >>> could have > been explored. including maximum autonomy under the >> aegis of a >>> joint > India-Pakistan guarantee, which is what I understand the >> Musharraf >>> > formula to have been, But the bottom line is, whatever is worked >> out has to > be >>> acceptable to the popular will, hence a plebiscite with many >> options > on offer, >>> and the freedom to campaign for the many options in an >> > atomsphere free of >>> coercion. >>> >>> Realistically speaking, I do not > think >> that the Government of India has the >>> imagination any longer to > try and >> think out of the box. If it can, that would >>> be great. But, > going by the >> ostrich like attitude of the Government in the >>> face of the > obvious >> alienation of the Kashmiri people, I very much doubt it. >>> If > they had that >> intelligence, they could have stopped the killings by the >>> > security forces a >> long time ago. >>> >>> Therefore, the only remaining > possibility for ending the >> occupation seems to >>> me to be independence > for Kashmir, in the short term, >> under the custodianship >>> of the United > Nations, like happened in Kosovo.Of >> course, I strongly assert >>> that the > political road to this must be through >> non-violent means, through >>> mass > political participation, of as many >> different sections of the > population >>> as possible. It will be painful, for >> many Indians to accept, > but in the long >>> term, and in the absence of any >> other imaginative > solutions thought through by >>> the Indian political elites >> (that chance > has come, and sadly, gone) it will be >>> in the best interests of >> the > people of India. Of course, the challenge for the >>> people of Kashmir >> > would be to think through a vision of independence that does >>> not have > them >> switch slavery to Indian occupation to slavery to the Pakistani >>> > militarist >> elite. The challenge would be to come up with proposals for > a >>> >> demilitarized, non-aggressive Kashmir that can preserve its cultural > and >>> >> social openness and liberality, that can take back displaced > minorities, >> and >>> can offer them genuine, not token safety and security. > That is the hard >> work >>> that imaginative politics will have to undertake > in Kashmir. And we >> should >>> never stop expecting and demanding that from > all our Kashmiri >> friends. I >>> never, ever cease doing so. >>> >>>  In the > long term, this fact, >> an Independent Kashmir, could actually be the >>> > cornerstone of a broad South >> Asian Union (modelled on the EU) which > could >>> bring the different >> nationalities (there may be many by then) of > South Asia >>> under an >> arrangement of a free trade zone, a visa free zone, > a customs and >>> tarrifs >> union, a charter on shared ecological concerns, > and comprehensive >>> >> demilitarization. An independent Kashmir may be the > first step in that >>> >> direction. Of course this need not happen. Things > could get worse if >> Kashmir >>> separates. I am well aware and cognizant of > that possibility. But, >> at least, >>> once the dust and din settles, in our > lifetime, there is a >> likelihood that >>> once everyone has climbed off > their nationalist high >> horses, things might be >>> worked out, amicably and > reasonably between all the >> stake holders of a future >>> free association > of South Asian States and >> Territories. That, I think is the >>> only > guarantee for peace in our region. I >> know for certain that an India and >>> > Pakistan that continue to hold on to >> their respective fragments of Jammu > and >>> Kashmir, and an India that enforces >> that occupation by military > force cannot >>> contribute to peace in the >> region. >>> >>> That is why, I > think that freedom for Kashmir, and also, >> incidentally for >>> Tibet, is > key to long term peace and stability in Asia, >> because both these >>> > developments would reduce the necessity of the big >> poweres of tomorrow - > China >>> and India and to a lesser extent - Pakistan >> from being aggressive > nuclear >>> powered rivals, and would perhaps, perhaps, >> open out the true > possibility of >>> what a worthwhile Asian Century really >> ought to be like. > Otherwise, I am >>> afraid that we will replay the disasters >> of the > European history of the >>> Twentieth Century, from the First World War >> > onwards, on the soil of Twenty >>> First Century Asia. >>> >>> >>> I hope i > have >> made myself clear >>> >>> best, >>> >>> >>> > Shuddha >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On >> 23-Oct-10, at 7:45 PM, SJabbar > wrote: >>> >>>> Sorry for cross-posting but I >> sent this message out in the > morning as a >>>> response to Shuddha¹s 2nd post >> but received an automated > email saying my >>>> post had to be reviewed by the >> moderator.  Since I > haven¹t received a >>>> response (Monica??!) I assume it >> was not approved > or got lost in the vast >>>> belly of the Sarai computer! >>>> >> > ------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> >>>> Shuddha, let us take > your >> arguments and apply them to the other side.  Modi >>>> belongs to a > political >> party that was in power and he was at the helm when >>>> the 2002 > Gujarat >> carnage took place.  He may not have explicitly directed it >>>> > but he >> certainly presided over the violence.  What Modi is like as a > person, >>>> >> whether he is gentle, cultured, cries at the funeral of his > friends or his >>>> >> rivals are of no concern to me  (It is well known that > Goebbels was a >>>> >> cultured man and had a refined taste in music and the > arts and of course >>>> >> Jinnah ate ham sandwiches). What matters to me is > that the man presided >> over >>>> the worst kind of violence and has refused > to, till date, condemn >> it >>>> unambiguously.  Instead he and his party > continue to cite the >> economic >>>> progress of Muslims in Gujarat to > counter it.  The subtext of >> this‹ and this >>>> is a South Asian disease‹ > is let us forget the past, >> galtiyan dono taraf se >>>> huin hain > (³action-reaction²), and let us move on. >>  Whether it is the >>>> various > political parties in India who have incited, >> controlled and presided >>>> > over the worst communal or sectarian violence from >> the 1930¹s to the > present >>>> day, or the Pakistani army role in the mass >> rapes of > Bangladesh or the Sri >>>> Lankan army¹s role against Tamil civilians, >> > every political party in these >>>> countries seem to be inflicted by the > same >> disease. >>>> Having said that, I believe it is the role of civil > society to be >> vigilant, >>>> to be rigorous, to not succumb to the same > logic. >>>> >>>> I know >> that you have been critical of fundamentalist > politics in this forum >>>> and >> others, whether it is Hindutva or Islamist > and that is why it surprised >>>> me >> to read your post on the LTG event. >  You say ³You may be right when you>>> >> say that SAS Geelani may be saying > one thing in Delhi and another in >>>> >> Srinagar.  I am not here to judge > the sincerity, or lack of,  or >> ambiguity, >>>> of these statements.²  Why > are you not here to judge the >> sincerity or lack >>>> thereof of these > statements?  Surely, one is always >> judging political >>>> parties when they > claim one or another thing?  How does >> one align oneself >>>> politically if > one goes simply by manifestos and not by >> actions?  Judging >>>> and > evaluating is a constant process.  Mamta Bannerjee >> may have been one >>>> > thing as a member of the opposition but how will she be >> when she comes > to >>>> power?  One reads her statements, one watches carefully >> her > actions >>>> following her statements.  If they don¹t gel, we believe her >> > to be >>>> insincere. >>>> >>>> You write: ³I am amazed that this recognition > is >> not getting the space I >>>> think it deserves, simply as a NEWS story. > ³ Do >> you remember Atal Behari >>>> Vajpayee shed tears after the demolition > of the >> Babri Masjid and Advani >>>> described it as ³the saddest day of his > life.² >> Should these isolated moments >>>> and statements be highlighted and > privileged >> as representing the 2 men¹s >>>> position on the Babri Masjid or > should one >> judge them over a longer period >>>> of time, weighing their > statements and >> their actions? >>>> >>>> As for Mr. Geelani and evaluating > his actions, do you >> believe a responsible >>>> leader ought to lead from > the front or give calls to >> his followers to engage >>>> in actions that > will cause injury or even death >> from the safety of his home? >>>> Mr. > Geelani is fully aware that in any part >> of this planet if you pelt >>>> > stones at a man with a gun, there is a fair >> chance that the man with the > gun >>>> is going to retaliate.  When he was >> released from jail he made a > fine >>>> statement calling for the end of the >> hartaal calendar, saying > that this was >>>> not the way forward, that these >> protests could not be > sustained, that life >>>> could not come to a standstill >> (btw, the Sopore > fruit mandi, his >>>> constituency, continued to function >> through this > entire period hartaal >>>> calendar or not).  These were wise >> words from a > man who has been in politics >>>> for years.  Wise words or the >> thinking of > the ISI, I¹m not sure because the >>>> words were echoed by Syed >> > Salahuddin.  What follows is interesting: >>>> Salahuddin¹s effigy is burnt > and >> a rumour is floated that Mr. Geelani is >>>> selling out to Omar > Abdullah. >>  Does Mr. Geelani stand by his words?  Does he >>>> do what > Gandhi does after >> Chauri Chaura?  No, of course not.  He does a >>>> total > U-turn and starts >> competing with Masrat Alam on the calendars, >>>> > subjecting the people of the >> valley to more misery.  What do ordinary >>>> > Kashmiris feel about the >> continuation of this absurd form of protest > where >>>> they and not the >> Government of India suffer?  You may find the > answer in the >>>> fact that >> there was not a single protest when Masrat > Alam was arrested. >>>> >>>> Again >> Mr. Geelani saying he Œpersonally¹ > favours the accession to Pakistan >>>> but >> will Œabide by¹ what the people > of J&K want is neither here nor there. >>>> >> What you see as a maturing > position may be read as an opportunistic one >>>> >> until such time as it is > tested.  As I have already shown in my last post >>>> >> Mr. Geelani, his > political party and his ideology have since the mid-90¹s >>>> >> shown no such > respectful accommodation of the political views of others. >>  In >>>> fact > any divergence from this view has been silenced by the bullet. >>  If > this >>>> is someone¹s history‹ and as much as I should wish it otherwise-- >> > it is >>>> very, very difficult for me to suspend my cynicism and turn >> > enthusiastic >>>> cartwheels on the basis of one speech to a select audience > in >> New Delhi. >>>> >>>> With reference to your point about borders:  The > GoI >> acknowledges that >>>> Kashmir is an ³issue² between India and > Pakistan.  As I >> have mentioned in my >>>> first post, it objects to the > word ³dispute² as it >> internationalizes >>>> Kashmir, ignores the Simla > Agreement and takes it out of >> the domain of >>>> bilateral talks back to > the UN.  If you want my personal >> opinion on this >>>> (and I have argued on > this list in the past), I agree with >> this stand.  I >>>> see the UN as a > forum where, sadly, world powers have >> always manipulated >>>> nations and > it certainly does not have the moral >> standing after Iraq and >>>> > Afghanistan to really mediate anywhere in the >> world.  India and > Pakistan >>>> need to, and can settle the issue taking into >> account the > wishes of all the >>>> people of J&K as it stood in 1947.  As I >> have argued > in the past and as >>>> Gen.Musharraf recently said on an NDTV >> interview > that India and Pakistan >>>> were very close to drafting an agreement >> based > on his 4-point formula. >>>> Interestingly, various interpretations of >> this > 4-point formula were thrown >>>> up by all shades of political parties but >> > there was a broad consensus on >>>> this whether from the mainstream groups > or >> the separatists.  The only leader >>>> that rejected this was Mr. > Geelani who >> insisted that the Kashmir ³dispute² >>>> be solved on the UN > Resolutions of >> 1948! >>>> >>>> As for borders themselves: what is Europe > today but a borderless >> continent? >>>> You critique the idea of the > nation-state and yet you want to >> re-invent the >>>> wheel by supporting yet > another nation-state in independent >> Kashmir.  Why, >>>> when a 21st c. > solution in the 4-point formula, similar to >> the form and >>>> content of > the EU, could be in the making? >>>> >>>> Best >> wishes, >>>> > Sonia >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 22/10/10 8:10 PM, "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" >> > wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> Dear Sonia, (don't worry Pawan, its > a >> lot less than '3000 lines') >>>>> >>>>> I said - " I do not agree with > much of >> what Geelani Saheb represents >>>>> politically, or ideologically, > but I have >> no hesitation in saying that what >>>>> he >>>>> said yesterday, > was surprising >> for its gentleness, for its consideration, >>>>> for >>>>> > its moderation, even >> for its liberality and open heartedness." >>>>> >>>>> > What part of this sentence >> seems to suggest that I am 'aligning' with > SAS >>>>> Geelani. The 'I do not >> agree with much' does not seem to indicate > alignment, >>>>> or endorsement to >> me. The rest of the statement is a > statement of fact. Were >>>>> SAS Geelani to >> have said words that were > inflammatory yesterday, I would not >>>>> have >> hesitated to said that he > had. Allow me to elaborate by way of an >>>>> >> example >>>>> - I have never > been in agreement with the political philosophy >> of >>>>> M.K.Gandhi, >>>>> > but I never make the mistake of saying that my >> disagreement with Gandhi > (my >>>>> refusal to endorse Gandhian ideology and >> what it means > politically) amounts >>>>> to >>>>> my failure to recognize >> Gandhi's > gentleness, his consideration, his >>>>> moderation, his liberality >> and its > open heartedness. >>>>> >>>>>  I have been strongly critical Islamist >> > politics, including on this forum, >>>>> whenever I have considered it >> > necessary to do so. That is one thing, and it >>>>> is >>>>> where I would >> > differ from SAS Geelani, explicitly, categorically, unless he >>>>> makes a >> > statement, like the Mirwaiz did recently, abjuring an 'Islamist >>>>> >> > future >>>>> for Kashmir'. But to say that SAS Geelani has never expressed >> > regret for the >>>>> violence that rocked even the pro-Azadi camp from > within >> is specious. >>>>> Kashmiri >>>>> polticians of all hues routinely > issue >> condemnations of incidents of >>>>> terrorism, and targetted > assasinations. >> Geelani, to my knowledge, has not >>>>> been >>>>> any > exception. Eyewitnesses >> speak of seeing him weeping at Abdul Ghani >>>>> > Lone's >>>>> funeral. I do not >> know, nor do I care, whether these tears > were genuine. All >>>>> I >>>>> am >> saying is that if the man has not said > that he celebrates the assasins of>>>> >> the elder Mirwaiz, or Abdul Ghani > Lone, or the attacks on Dr. Shameema >> that >>>>> you mention, then, it is > unfair to accuse him of 'Not Saying' the >> 'not >>>>> saying'. He condemns > assasinations. He does not celebrate the >> assasin. This >>>>> means that he > cannot be accused of being the source of the >> assasination, >>>>> unless > other concrete evidence is brought to bear upon the >> case. >>>>> >>>>>  You > may be right when you say that SAS Geelani may be saying >> one thing in >>>>> > Delhi and another in Srinagar.  I am not here to judge the >> sincerity, > or >>>>> lack >>>>> of,  or ambiguity, of these statements. I think >> > politically, the significant >>>>> thing is that whatever he may have said > in >> the past, SAS Geelani, HAS to >>>>> speak >>>>> a language today that is > not >> secterian. He may have done so in the past. Let >>>>> us remember that > he was >> an elected member of the J&K assembly for more than >>>>> one term > in the past, >> and that means he had to swear fealty of some sort to >>>>> > the Indian >> constitution. Judging by this, we should be able to evaluate > his >>>>> >> 'Islamist' commitments in the light of his sometime loyalty to > an >> apparently >>>>> secular constitution. If the sake of argument, we say > that we >> should take >>>>> seriously what came 'after' as representing the > 'maturing' of >> his position, >>>>> then, if his avowedly 'secterian' / > Islamist / Pro-Pakistan >> phase came after >>>>> his phase as an MLA of the > J&K assembly, then, so too >> has this 'current' >>>>> phase >>>>> come > 'after' his secterian posturing. I am >> not the one who needs to split >>>>> > these hairs, but clearly, if some emphasis >> is bieng given to chronology as > a >>>>> way of attributing the man's politics >> to the man's biography, then > let's >>>>> stay >>>>> consistent, and say, that if >> the current SAS Geelani > is saying things that >>>>> don't seem to require the >> automatic assumption > of an Isamic state (which is >>>>> what we would expect >> from the 'old' > Geelani, then, we have every reason to >>>>> take it as >> seriously as when > he made his decision to abandon 'mainstream' >>>>> electoral >> politics in > Jammu and Kashmir for the hardline fringe. >>>>> >>>>> Indeed, I >> would go > so far as to say that as far as we are concerned, we >>>>> should >>>>> >> > assume, and hold him, and his followers, responsible to the Œevolution¹>> > of >>>>> their statements, as they occur. If he goes back on the broad, >> > liberal >>>>> nature >>>>> of a vision for Azad kashmir (which, > incidentally, >> among other things, >>>>> included the somewhat whimsical > detail of a provision >> of compensation for >>>>> damages were a believing > Muslim to damage a bottle of >> alchohl of a >>>>> non-believer), then, we > should hold him responsible for that >> regression. He >>>>> made a speech > that was refreshingly free of Islamist >> rhetoric yesterday, >>>>> that >>>>> > spoke in the broad terms of 'Insaaniyat' - >> Humanity. If Atal Behari > Vajpayee >>>>> can be appreciated, as indeed he should >> have been, for > speaking in terms of >>>>> 'Insaaniyat' when it came to thinking >> about the > solution to the question of >>>>> Jammu and Kashmir, why could the >> > mainstream media not pick up the fact that >>>>> at >>>>> least in stated > terms, >> SAS Geelani was making as major a move, by invoking >>>>> > 'Insaaniyat' over >> secterian considerations, exactly as Vajpayee had > done. >>>>> Recognizing this >> does not require us to align with, or endorse, > either SAS >>>>> Geelani, or >> Atal Behari Vajpayee, it simply requires us to > register a fact >>>>> that a >> major move is in process. That politics is > being transformed, even as >>>>> we >> speak. I am amazed that this > recognition is being painted as 'alignment, >>>>> >> or >>>>> endorsement'. I > am amazed that this recognition is not getting the >> space I >>>>> think it > deserves, simply as a NEWS story. SAS Geelani says he >> wishes India >>>>> > to >>>>> be a strong country, a regional power, that he >> supports (in > principle) a >>>>> future permanent place for India on the United >> Natons > Security Council, once >>>>> Kashmir is liberated   - in other words, he >> is > saying, let us go, and we >>>>> will >>>>> stand with you, dont you think >> > this is BIG news. That is what I was trying >>>>> to >>>>> talk about. Trying > to >> talk about does not make me a camp follower of SAS >>>>> Geelani or any > other >> politician, in India, Kashmir, or elsewhere. >>>>> >>>>> My sense is, > the >> movement for Azadi in Kashmir has gone beyond the persona >>>>> > of >>>>> SAS >> Geelani, and while he is universally respected for his > integrity and >>>>> >> incorruptability, his word is by no means, Œlaw¹. He, > and other leaders >> like >>>>> him, are being Œled¹ as much as they are > Œleading¹ the people they >> claim to >>>>> represent. Part of this process > means giving up the secterian >> rhetoric that >>>>> people in Kashmir > genuinely feel alienated by. We should >> welcome this >>>>> > development. >>>>> >>>>> Now, I come to the views that he >> holds regarding > independence and merger >>>>> with >>>>> Pakistan. He has said, >> including > in his recent interview with Seema Mustafa >>>>> that he PERSONALLY >> prefers > accession to Pakistan, but that he is willing to >>>>> abide by >> whatever > the people of Jammu and Kashmir decide. I do not think >>>>> that >>>>> >> the > people of Jammu and Kashmir have a future with Pakistan.So, I >> > disagree >>>>> with SAS Geelani's personal view. I strongly argue for a >> > demilitarized, >>>>> independent, secular Jammu and Kashmir. That makes me >> > someone who does not >>>>> endorse SAS Geelani's position. Let's look at > thigns >> this way, had this been >>>>> 1935, I would probably have not been > in agreement >> with M.K. Gandhi's vision >>>>> of >>>>> what he thought the > future of South >> Asia and India ought to be. But that >>>>> does >>>>> not > mean that I would >> dismiss Gandhi as irrelevant, or someone to be > mocked >>>>> and reviled. I >> would engage with him politicially, as many > currents in India >>>>> at that >> time did. They were not uncritical of > Gandhi (from the left and the >>>>> >> right) but they knew that Gandhi's > voice had a certain resonance. I think>>>> >> that >>>>> the attitude that > people have towards SAS Geelani is not dissimilar. >> They >>>>> may >>>>> not > agree with him on many counts, and most Kashmiris that >> I know > personally >>>>> would fit that description. But none would want to >> dismiss > or demonize him. >>>>> Primarily because of his unwillingness to be an >> > occasional pawn in the hands >>>>> of the occupation. >>>>> >>>>>  I have yet > to >> come across an Indian politician who is willing to say, on >>>>> > the >>>>> >> record, that he PERSONALLY prefers that Jammu and Kashmir stay > with >> India, >>>>> but >>>>> will respect whatever the people of Jammu and > Kashmir >> decide in a free and >>>>> fair plebiscite. If that were to be the > case, then >> we would get much further >>>>> than where we are today in > Kashmir. I have no >> quarrel with those who want >>>>> Kashmir to stay in > India. Theirs is a point >> of view. It needs to be freely >>>>> heard, freely > debated, and if is >> convincing to the people of Jammu and >>>>> Kashmir, > best of luck to those who >> carry the day. What I am against is >>>>> > maintaining Jammu and Kashmir as >> parts of the Indian Union by force. > By >>>>> violence. By occupation. >>>>> >>>>> >> Finally, I come to the five > points, and whether or not, sticking to the >>>>> >> point >>>>> about Kashmir > being disputed is an obstacle. Lets face facts. >> Kashmir is a >>>>> dispute. > Every single map of the world that is not printed >> in India shows >>>>> > it, >>>>> visually, as a disputed territory. That is why >> the Government of > India has >>>>> to >>>>> put its silly ink stamp on atlases. >> That is why > there is a United Nations >>>>> Observer group in Delhi, Islamabad >> and > Srinagar. United Nations observers >>>>> are >>>>> present, in the same > way, >> in say Cyprus (another dispute) Israel / >>>>> Palestine, >>>>> > another dispute. >> What is the big deal in saying, yes, it is a dispute. > Will >>>>> India >> disappear if the public secret is admitted to? As far as I > am >>>>> >> concerned >>>>> borders, and sovereignty, are less important than > the lives of >> people. If >>>>> discussing a border, and what it means, can > be a method to >> save lives, then >>>>> refusing to do so, is a crime. The > Government of India >> can offer to >>>>> 'discuss' >>>>> - sovereignty over > those areas of the >> India-Tibet border that were taken by >>>>> force > majeure by British Imperial >> power, but it will sacrifice the lives of >>>>> > hundreds of thousands of people >> in order to keep the fetish of the > Indian >>>>> Union's  soveriegnty and >> integrity alive in the case of Jammu > and Kashmir. >>>>> This policy seems to me >> to be totally criminal and > misguided. >>>>> >>>>> Borders are made by human >> beings, and can be changed > by human beings. The >>>>> geographical expression >> of the Union of India is > not divinely ordained. >>>>> Sensible people all over >> the world, understand > that maps can change, and >>>>> that >>>>> they do change. >> We hope that the > map of China can someday be drawn in >>>>> Chinese >>>>> school >> text books > without engulfing Tibet. If that can be a reasonable >>>>> >> desire, >>>>> > and not be seen as an 'obstruction', why should a similar desire >> be seen > as >>>>> an >>>>> obstruction in the case of India and Jammu and >> Kashmir. > Arnab Goswami >>>>> repeatedly used the word 'splittist' yestyerday to >> > refer to all those who >>>>> were >>>>> speaking at the meeting at the LTG >> > yesterday. A word that is used by the >>>>> Chinese government and the > Chinese >> Communist Party whenever it refers to the >>>>> Dalai Lama and the > movement for >> a free Tibet. Are we (our government, >>>>> sections >>>>> of > our media) aping >> the Chinese government and the behemoth of the > Chinese >>>>> Communist Party in >> aligning and endorsing ourselves with the > fetish of a man >>>>> made fiction of >> sovereignty. I should hope that we > can do better than that. >>>>> >>>>> best >> regards, >>>>> >>>>> > Shuddha >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >> > _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open > discussion >> list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> > To subscribe: >> send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe >>>> in the >> subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: >> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: >> > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >> > Shuddhabrata Sengupta >>>> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >>>> Raqs Media >> > Collective >>>> shuddha at sarai.net >>>> www.sarai.net >>>> >> > www.raqsmediacollective.net >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >> >> >> > _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open > discussion >> list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To > subscribe: send >> an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject >> header. >> To unsubscribe: >> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: >> > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > ___________________________ >> ______________ > reader-list: an open > discussion list on media and the >> city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To > subscribe: send an email to >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. > To >> unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: >> > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _____________________ > ____________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To > unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From adityarajbaul at gmail.com Tue Oct 26 16:15:45 2010 From: adityarajbaul at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Baul) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 16:15:45 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?iso-8859-1?q?Azadi=3A_The_Only_Way_=AD_Report_fro?= =?iso-8859-1?q?m_a_Turbulent_Few_Hours_in_Delhi?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You can be as contemptuous as you want. Doesn't take away from your hypocrisy On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 4:10 PM, SJabbar wrote: > Oh whenever you want, dear boy, since you believe in making history. > Atilla D. Hun > > > On 26/10/10 4:01 PM, "Aditya Raj Baul" wrote: > >> My question is: when will you make Rahul PM? > > On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 3:58 PM, >> SJabbar wrote: >> Aditya Raj Baul, >> What exactly is >> your question? >> Sincerely, >> Sonia Gandhi >> >> >> On 26/10/10 2:04 PM, "Aditya >> Raj Baul" wrote: >> >>> I like it how Sonia Jabbar >> wants to hold Kashmir hostage to history - >> to the >>> histories of India and >> Pakistan, to the history of what Geelani >> has or has not >>> done, has or has >> not said. She does not think history >> is irrelevant to today's >>> people who >> want azadi today in today's >> context - sorry, she says, India has >>> signed >> the Simla agreement, and >> Geelani is a fanatic. Thank you. Fair enough, >>> I >> suppose. But will she >> apply the same rigours of historical understanding >> to >>> the Indian state >> and its actions in Kashmir? Please? >> >> On Mon, Oct >> 25, 2010 at >>> 9:53 AM, SJabbar wrote: >>> Dear >> Shuddha, >>> >>> I think >>> our differences have narrowed considerably as you >> continue to >>> clarify your >>> position.  Reading between your lines, you seem >> to think that I >>> have a >>> problem with your engaging with Mr. Geelani or >> that the problem was >>> your >>> sharing a stage with him. I do not not.  In >> politics there are no >>> pariahs. >>>  If someone represents a constituency-- >> no matter how marginal-- >>> that is >>> part of the social fabric you cannot >> ignore it.  It may surprise you >>> and >>>  many on this list to know that Mr. >> Geelani and I have known each other >>> >>> since 1997 and have extremely frank >> and cordial relations. My problem was> >>> with the language of your report of >> the meeting where your enthusiasm >>> >>> (“tallest separatist leader,” he is >> “NOT against dialogue,” “all that they >>> >>> are asking for is the Right to >> self-determination”) masked a political >>> >>> reality that was far more >> complex and brutal.  However, you have since >>> >>> clarified that you do not >> endorse Mr. Geelani’s  politics and you concede >>> >>> that he may well have >> been playing to audiences in Delhi,  bringing us more >>> >>> or less on the >> same page except that past experience has made me less likely >>> >>> to share >> your belief that someone like Mr. Geelani can be “USED” or that you >>> >>> can >>  “compel them to come to a degree of moderation in action, and a >>> >>> >> greater, more imaginative radicalism in terms of conceptions.” >>> >>> I am >> glad >>> you agree that people and groups, state and non-state actors who >>> >> have >>> committed crimes must stand trial and justice must be done, whether >> it >>> is >>> SAS Geelani, Yasin Malik, Syed Salahuddin or various army generals >> who >>> have >>> presided over rights abuses while they served in J&K. I have in >> this >>> forum >>> written of a Truth & Reconciliation Commission modeled on the >> South >>> African >>> experience that should follow the final settlement on >> J&K. >>> >>> I am also glad >>> that you agree with my point of the futility of >> creating a >>> new nation-state >>> in the form of an independent Kashmir ( “I >> am not for the >>> moment saying and >>> have never said that an independent >> Kashmir will be in any >>> way a qualitative >>> improvement (in terms of a >> state form) than an occupied >>> Kashmir,”).  But you >>> seem to believe that >> it is necessary because “ It may >>> at least lead to the >>> withdrawal of the >> reality of a brutal occupation.” By >>> this I assume your >>> vision of regime >> change means replacing one democratic >>> republic with another >>> democratic >> republic and not an Islamic republic or a >>> military state.  In >>> which case >> “the reality of a brutal occupation” must >>> mean the withdrawal of >>> >> hundreds of thousands of uniformed men in J&K.  But >>> do you really need >> to >>> create a new nation-state in order to demilitarize >>> Kashmir? >>> >>> >> From 1947 to >>> 1989 India’s military presence was restricted to the >> borders >>> and to the few >>> garrisons of Srinagar, Baramulla, Leh, Udhampur >> and Poonch. >>> Between 1989- >>> 1992 India was being seriously challenged on >> the military >>> front by thousands >>> of Kashmiri militants and Islamist >> mujahideen.  The troop >>> surge only >>> happened only around 1992-93 and the >> Indian military was only >>> able to >>> control the situation around 1995. In >> 1996 the situation was such >>> that it >>> was the first time in 6 years it was >> possible to hold elections and >>> yet then >>> as in 2002 there were hundreds >> of assassinations of political >>> candidates and >>> ordinary workers of >> political parties (the right to >>> self-determination is >>> never extended to >> this group). >>> >>> Anyway, my point is that 500,000 or 700,000 >>> troops were >> not there as a >>> permanent fixture since 1947 and the ‘most >>> militarized >> place in the world’ >>> was not always so.  It is both desirable and >>> >> possible to withdraw troops and >>> it should be done in a phased manner. >>> >>  Though I have been vocal in >>> advocating this since 2001, sadly, I believe >> it >>> will be linked to the final >>> settlement and will not happen before >> because of >>> the many sleeper cells of >>> militants that get activated the >> moment there is >>> peace or at least as they >>> say ‘normalcy’— as we have >> seen in last week’s >>> encounter between troops and >>> the JeM in Srinagar. >>  BTW Srinagar district was >>> one of the districts being >>> examined for the >> revocation of the Disturbed >>> Areas Act.  This encounter will >>> make it >> extremely difficult for the state >>> government to do so. >>> >>> >>>  I am glad >> you agree with me that the 4-point >>> formula can be a solution to >>> the >> vexed Kashmir issue, however your reading >>> of what went wrong and putting >>> >> the onus of the failure of implementation >>> squarely on New Delhi’s >> shoulder >>> is wrong.  Yes, there were delays on New >>> Delhi’s side, but >> those were not >>> remarkable considering a political >>> consensus had to be >> built within the >>> country (I think it was in 2008 during >>> the Amarnath >> Yatra that I explained >>> the entire process at length in this >>> forum). >>  Very simply what happened was >>> that the Lawyer’s Movement in >>> Pakistan >> overtook the Kashmir process and once >>> Mushrraf was ousted and >>> Benazir >> was assassinated the country plunged into >>> political turmoil and the >>> >> Zaradari government was too weak to break from >>> Pakistan’s traditional >> stand >>> of the UN Resolutions.  Both Gen Kayani and the >>> ISI were not >> comfortable >>> with Musharraf’s radical departure from tradition. >>> Both >> believe Pakistan’s >>> best interests are served by keeping the Kashmir pot >>> >> boiling, maintaining >>> India as ‘enemy no 1’, encouraging extremism in >>> >> Afghanistan to maintain >>> ‘strategic depth,’ and to scuttle any influence >>> >> India may wield in >>> Afghanistan.  So, as much as I and many others would >> like >>> to see the 4-point >>> formula being at least discussed, under the >> present >>> Pakistani dispensation >>> it is highly unlikely. >>> >>> When you >> advocate a plebiscite and you believe that >>> the azadi movement must >>> be >> peaceful then you must also accommodate the >>> possibility of a partitioned >>> >> J&K, where large sections of Jammu and all of >>> Ladakh would not vote for >>> >> Pakistan (and under what UN Resolution would the >>> option of independence >> be >>> granted since NO UN Resolution holds that option >>> and no Kashmiri to >> date has >>> appealed to the UN to pass a resolution to >>> include the option?) >> And how >>> would you persuade Pakistan to allow a >>> plebiscite in areas under >> their >>> control?  And what is your opinion of the >>> vast region of >> Gilgit-Baltistan >>> that by Pakistani law has been severed from >>> the state >> of Jammu & Kashmir and >>> where its citizens have NO fundamental >>> rights as >> its constitutional status >>> has not as yet been determined? >>> >>> I am >>> >> asking these questions not to score points but for us to locate what is >>> >>> >> moral or desirable within what is real and possible not just for >> Kashmiris >>> >>> who are but a small part of the state, but of all the people >> of Jammu & >>> >>> Kashmir. >>> >>> Best, >>> Sonia >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >> My question is, what do we do >>> next. I think that this means that the >> people >>>> 'learn' to USE them, to >>> compel them to come to a degree of >> moderation in >>>> action, and a greater, >>> more imaginative radicalism in >> terms of conceptions. >>>> That is why, the >>> current situation in Kashmir, >> where the 'Leaders' are being >>>> 'Led' by people >>> is interesting to me. I >> find it POSITIVE that they have to do >>>> flip-flops so >>> often, from >> Hartal-to-No Hartal- to Hartal again. This shows >>>> that they are >>> NOT >> running the street. Things are unpredictable. The change in >>>> the >>> >> 'temperature' of SAS Geelani's statements may be as much due to the >> fact >>>> >>> that he is no longer in a position to call all the shots. >> Therefore, he has >>>> >>> less to lose by 'changing' his tenor. >>>> >>>> There >> is a way in which the >>> language of politics has changed, and it has >>>> >> changed because of the way in >>> which people are communicating on all sorts >> of >>>> fora. Though they may, out >>> of affection, still say that only Geelani >> will do >>>> the Tarjumani, the truth >>> is, everyone is doing their own >> Tarjumani now. and >>>> that is the hardest nut >>> for the Government of India >> to crack. As an anarchist, >>>> I find this >>> situation, of the actual, >> concrete, refusal of 'representational >>>> forms of >>> politics' . however >> ephemeral it might be at present, quite >>>> delightful. SO >>> much so, that a >> 'theatre' of leadership continues, but >>>> actuality presumes a >>> totally >> different language of politics. >>>> >>>> I find this a fertile situation, >>> >> one latent with possibilities, for everyone. >>>> >>>> As for your other >> point, >>> about how close we all were to the beginnings of the >>>> long road >> towards a >>> solution with Musharraf's four point formula - I agree >>>> with >> you. But, then, >>> it was the Government of India that scuttled that >>>> >> possibility. If the >>> government of India had acted then, on what was on >> offer, >>>> perhaps things >>> would not have come to the situation where they >> are at present. >>>> Too much >>> has gone wrong since then. I am not a >> nationalist of any sort, and to >>>> me, >>> ALL nation states, and all nation >> states in waiting,  are ultimately the>> >>> actors of the tragedies of their >> own making and choosing, >>>> So, basically, I >>> am not for the moment saying >> and have never said that an >>>> independent >>> Kashmir will be in any way a >> qualitative improvement (in terms of >>>> a state >>> form) than an occupied >> Kashmir, but, It may at least lead to the >>>> withdrawal >>> of the reality of >> a brutal occupation. >>>> >>>> For me, whatever makes that >>> possible, I am >> prepared to accept. There were, and >>>> remain many >>> possibilities that span >> the spectrum from where the situation is >>>> at present >>> to Indpendence or >> accession to Pakistan. But thinking about those >>>> >>> possibilities require >> all Indians to stop thinking only out of the Indian>> >>> nationalist box. You >> know very well, that many different kinds of >>> arrangement >>>> could have >> been explored. including maximum autonomy under the >>> aegis of a >>>> joint >> India-Pakistan guarantee, which is what I understand the >>> Musharraf >>>> >> formula to have been, But the bottom line is, whatever is worked >>> out has to >> be >>>> acceptable to the popular will, hence a plebiscite with many >>> options >> on offer, >>>> and the freedom to campaign for the many options in an >>> >> atomsphere free of >>>> coercion. >>>> >>>> Realistically speaking, I do not >> think >>> that the Government of India has the >>>> imagination any longer to >> try and >>> think out of the box. If it can, that would >>>> be great. But, >> going by the >>> ostrich like attitude of the Government in the >>>> face of the >> obvious >>> alienation of the Kashmiri people, I very much doubt it. >>>> If >> they had that >>> intelligence, they could have stopped the killings by the >>>> >> security forces a >>> long time ago. >>>> >>>> Therefore, the only remaining >> possibility for ending the >>> occupation seems to >>>> me to be independence >> for Kashmir, in the short term, >>> under the custodianship >>>> of the United >> Nations, like happened in Kosovo.Of >>> course, I strongly assert >>>> that the >> political road to this must be through >>> non-violent means, through >>>> mass >> political participation, of as many >>> different sections of the >> population >>>> as possible. It will be painful, for >>> many Indians to accept, >> but in the long >>>> term, and in the absence of any >>> other imaginative >> solutions thought through by >>>> the Indian political elites >>> (that chance >> has come, and sadly, gone) it will be >>>> in the best interests of >>> the >> people of India. Of course, the challenge for the >>>> people of Kashmir >>> >> would be to think through a vision of independence that does >>>> not have >> them >>> switch slavery to Indian occupation to slavery to the Pakistani >>>> >> militarist >>> elite. The challenge would be to come up with proposals for >> a >>>> >>> demilitarized, non-aggressive Kashmir that can preserve its cultural >> and >>>> >>> social openness and liberality, that can take back displaced >> minorities, >>> and >>>> can offer them genuine, not token safety and security. >> That is the hard >>> work >>>> that imaginative politics will have to undertake >> in Kashmir. And we >>> should >>>> never stop expecting and demanding that from >> all our Kashmiri >>> friends. I >>>> never, ever cease doing so. >>>> >>>>  In the >> long term, this fact, >>> an Independent Kashmir, could actually be the >>>> >> cornerstone of a broad South >>> Asian Union (modelled on the EU) which >> could >>>> bring the different >>> nationalities (there may be many by then) of >> South Asia >>>> under an >>> arrangement of a free trade zone, a visa free zone, >> a customs and >>>> tarrifs >>> union, a charter on shared ecological concerns, >> and comprehensive >>>> >>> demilitarization. An independent Kashmir may be the >> first step in that >>>> >>> direction. Of course this need not happen. Things >> could get worse if >>> Kashmir >>>> separates. I am well aware and cognizant of >> that possibility. But, >>> at least, >>>> once the dust and din settles, in our >> lifetime, there is a >>> likelihood that >>>> once everyone has climbed off >> their nationalist high >>> horses, things might be >>>> worked out, amicably and >> reasonably between all the >>> stake holders of a future >>>> free association >> of South Asian States and >>> Territories. That, I think is the >>>> only >> guarantee for peace in our region. I >>> know for certain that an India and >>>> >> Pakistan that continue to hold on to >>> their respective fragments of Jammu >> and >>>> Kashmir, and an India that enforces >>> that occupation by military >> force cannot >>>> contribute to peace in the >>> region. >>>> >>>> That is why, I >> think that freedom for Kashmir, and also, >>> incidentally for >>>> Tibet, is >> key to long term peace and stability in Asia, >>> because both these >>>> >> developments would reduce the necessity of the big >>> poweres of tomorrow - >> China >>>> and India and to a lesser extent - Pakistan >>> from being aggressive >> nuclear >>>> powered rivals, and would perhaps, perhaps, >>> open out the true >> possibility of >>>> what a worthwhile Asian Century really >>> ought to be like. >> Otherwise, I am >>>> afraid that we will replay the disasters >>> of the >> European history of the >>>> Twentieth Century, from the First World War >>> >> onwards, on the soil of Twenty >>>> First Century Asia. >>>> >>>> >>>> I hope i >> have >>> made myself clear >>>> >>>> best, >>>> >>>> >>>> >> Shuddha >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On >>> 23-Oct-10, at 7:45 PM, SJabbar >> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Sorry for cross-posting but I >>> sent this message out in the >> morning as a >>>>> response to Shuddha¹s 2nd post >>> but received an automated >> email saying my >>>>> post had to be reviewed by the >>> moderator.  Since I >> haven¹t received a >>>>> response (Monica??!) I assume it >>> was not approved >> or got lost in the vast >>>>> belly of the Sarai computer! >>>>> >>> >> ------------------------------------- >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Shuddha, let us take >> your >>> arguments and apply them to the other side.  Modi >>>>> belongs to a >> political >>> party that was in power and he was at the helm when >>>>> the 2002 >> Gujarat >>> carnage took place.  He may not have explicitly directed it >>>>> >> but he >>> certainly presided over the violence.  What Modi is like as a >> person, >>>>> >>> whether he is gentle, cultured, cries at the funeral of his >> friends or his >>>>> >>> rivals are of no concern to me  (It is well known that >> Goebbels was a >>>>> >>> cultured man and had a refined taste in music and the >> arts and of course >>>>> >>> Jinnah ate ham sandwiches). What matters to me is >> that the man presided >>> over >>>>> the worst kind of violence and has refused >> to, till date, condemn >>> it >>>>> unambiguously.  Instead he and his party >> continue to cite the >>> economic >>>>> progress of Muslims in Gujarat to >> counter it.  The subtext of >>> this‹ and this >>>>> is a South Asian disease‹ >> is let us forget the past, >>> galtiyan dono taraf se >>>>> huin hain >> (³action-reaction²), and let us move on. >>>  Whether it is the >>>>> various >> political parties in India who have incited, >>> controlled and presided >>>>> >> over the worst communal or sectarian violence from >>> the 1930¹s to the >> present >>>>> day, or the Pakistani army role in the mass >>> rapes of >> Bangladesh or the Sri >>>>> Lankan army¹s role against Tamil civilians, >>> >> every political party in these >>>>> countries seem to be inflicted by the >> same >>> disease. >>>>> Having said that, I believe it is the role of civil >> society to be >>> vigilant, >>>>> to be rigorous, to not succumb to the same >> logic. >>>>> >>>>> I know >>> that you have been critical of fundamentalist >> politics in this forum >>>>> and >>> others, whether it is Hindutva or Islamist >> and that is why it surprised >>>>> me >>> to read your post on the LTG event. >>  You say ³You may be right when you>>> >>> say that SAS Geelani may be saying >> one thing in Delhi and another in >>>>> >>> Srinagar.  I am not here to judge >> the sincerity, or lack of,  or >>> ambiguity, >>>>> of these statements.²  Why >> are you not here to judge the >>> sincerity or lack >>>>> thereof of these >> statements?  Surely, one is always >>> judging political >>>>> parties when they >> claim one or another thing?  How does >>> one align oneself >>>>> politically if >> one goes simply by manifestos and not by >>> actions?  Judging >>>>> and >> evaluating is a constant process.  Mamta Bannerjee >>> may have been one >>>>> >> thing as a member of the opposition but how will she be >>> when she comes >> to >>>>> power?  One reads her statements, one watches carefully >>> her >> actions >>>>> following her statements.  If they don¹t gel, we believe her >>> >> to be >>>>> insincere. >>>>> >>>>> You write: ³I am amazed that this recognition >> is >>> not getting the space I >>>>> think it deserves, simply as a NEWS story. >> ³ Do >>> you remember Atal Behari >>>>> Vajpayee shed tears after the demolition >> of the >>> Babri Masjid and Advani >>>>> described it as ³the saddest day of his >> life.² >>> Should these isolated moments >>>>> and statements be highlighted and >> privileged >>> as representing the 2 men¹s >>>>> position on the Babri Masjid or >> should one >>> judge them over a longer period >>>>> of time, weighing their >> statements and >>> their actions? >>>>> >>>>> As for Mr. Geelani and evaluating >> his actions, do you >>> believe a responsible >>>>> leader ought to lead from >> the front or give calls to >>> his followers to engage >>>>> in actions that >> will cause injury or even death >>> from the safety of his home? >>>>> Mr. >> Geelani is fully aware that in any part >>> of this planet if you pelt >>>>> >> stones at a man with a gun, there is a fair >>> chance that the man with the >> gun >>>>> is going to retaliate.  When he was >>> released from jail he made a >> fine >>>>> statement calling for the end of the >>> hartaal calendar, saying >> that this was >>>>> not the way forward, that these >>> protests could not be >> sustained, that life >>>>> could not come to a standstill >>> (btw, the Sopore >> fruit mandi, his >>>>> constituency, continued to function >>> through this >> entire period hartaal >>>>> calendar or not).  These were wise >>> words from a >> man who has been in politics >>>>> for years.  Wise words or the >>> thinking of >> the ISI, I¹m not sure because the >>>>> words were echoed by Syed >>> >> Salahuddin.  What follows is interesting: >>>>> Salahuddin¹s effigy is burnt >> and >>> a rumour is floated that Mr. Geelani is >>>>> selling out to Omar >> Abdullah. >>>  Does Mr. Geelani stand by his words?  Does he >>>>> do what >> Gandhi does after >>> Chauri Chaura?  No, of course not.  He does a >>>>> total >> U-turn and starts >>> competing with Masrat Alam on the calendars, >>>>> >> subjecting the people of the >>> valley to more misery.  What do ordinary >>>>> >> Kashmiris feel about the >>> continuation of this absurd form of protest >> where >>>>> they and not the >>> Government of India suffer?  You may find the >> answer in the >>>>> fact that >>> there was not a single protest when Masrat >> Alam was arrested. >>>>> >>>>> Again >>> Mr. Geelani saying he Œpersonally¹ >> favours the accession to Pakistan >>>>> but >>> will Œabide by¹ what the people >> of J&K want is neither here nor there. >>>>> >>> What you see as a maturing >> position may be read as an opportunistic one >>>>> >>> until such time as it is >> tested.  As I have already shown in my last post >>>>> >>> Mr. Geelani, his >> political party and his ideology have since the mid-90¹s >>>>> >>> shown no such >> respectful accommodation of the political views of others. >>>  In >>>>> fact >> any divergence from this view has been silenced by the bullet. >>>  If >> this >>>>> is someone¹s history‹ and as much as I should wish it otherwise-- >>> >> it is >>>>> very, very difficult for me to suspend my cynicism and turn >>> >> enthusiastic >>>>> cartwheels on the basis of one speech to a select audience >> in >>> New Delhi. >>>>> >>>>> With reference to your point about borders:  The >> GoI >>> acknowledges that >>>>> Kashmir is an ³issue² between India and >> Pakistan.  As I >>> have mentioned in my >>>>> first post, it objects to the >> word ³dispute² as it >>> internationalizes >>>>> Kashmir, ignores the Simla >> Agreement and takes it out of >>> the domain of >>>>> bilateral talks back to >> the UN.  If you want my personal >>> opinion on this >>>>> (and I have argued on >> this list in the past), I agree with >>> this stand.  I >>>>> see the UN as a >> forum where, sadly, world powers have >>> always manipulated >>>>> nations and >> it certainly does not have the moral >>> standing after Iraq and >>>>> >> Afghanistan to really mediate anywhere in the >>> world.  India and >> Pakistan >>>>> need to, and can settle the issue taking into >>> account the >> wishes of all the >>>>> people of J&K as it stood in 1947.  As I >>> have argued >> in the past and as >>>>> Gen.Musharraf recently said on an NDTV >>> interview >> that India and Pakistan >>>>> were very close to drafting an agreement >>> based >> on his 4-point formula. >>>>> Interestingly, various interpretations of >>> this >> 4-point formula were thrown >>>>> up by all shades of political parties but >>> >> there was a broad consensus on >>>>> this whether from the mainstream groups >> or >>> the separatists.  The only leader >>>>> that rejected this was Mr. >> Geelani who >>> insisted that the Kashmir ³dispute² >>>>> be solved on the UN >> Resolutions of >>> 1948! >>>>> >>>>> As for borders themselves: what is Europe >> today but a borderless >>> continent? >>>>> You critique the idea of the >> nation-state and yet you want to >>> re-invent the >>>>> wheel by supporting yet >> another nation-state in independent >>> Kashmir.  Why, >>>>> when a 21st c. >> solution in the 4-point formula, similar to >>> the form and >>>>> content of >> the EU, could be in the making? >>>>> >>>>> Best >>> wishes, >>>>> >> Sonia >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 22/10/10 8:10 PM, "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" >>> >> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Dear Sonia, (don't worry Pawan, its >> a >>> lot less than '3000 lines') >>>>>> >>>>>> I said - " I do not agree with >> much of >>> what Geelani Saheb represents >>>>>> politically, or ideologically, >> but I have >>> no hesitation in saying that what >>>>>> he >>>>>> said yesterday, >> was surprising >>> for its gentleness, for its consideration, >>>>>> for >>>>>> >> its moderation, even >>> for its liberality and open heartedness." >>>>>> >>>>>> >> What part of this sentence >>> seems to suggest that I am 'aligning' with >> SAS >>>>>> Geelani. The 'I do not >>> agree with much' does not seem to indicate >> alignment, >>>>>> or endorsement to >>> me. The rest of the statement is a >> statement of fact. Were >>>>>> SAS Geelani to >>> have said words that were >> inflammatory yesterday, I would not >>>>>> have >>> hesitated to said that he >> had. Allow me to elaborate by way of an >>>>>> >>> example >>>>>> - I have never >> been in agreement with the political philosophy >>> of >>>>>> M.K.Gandhi, >>>>>> >> but I never make the mistake of saying that my >>> disagreement with Gandhi >> (my >>>>>> refusal to endorse Gandhian ideology and >>> what it means >> politically) amounts >>>>>> to >>>>>> my failure to recognize >>> Gandhi's >> gentleness, his consideration, his >>>>>> moderation, his liberality >>> and its >> open heartedness. >>>>>> >>>>>>  I have been strongly critical Islamist >>> >> politics, including on this forum, >>>>>> whenever I have considered it >>> >> necessary to do so. That is one thing, and it >>>>>> is >>>>>> where I would >>> >> differ from SAS Geelani, explicitly, categorically, unless he >>>>>> makes a >>> >> statement, like the Mirwaiz did recently, abjuring an 'Islamist >>>>>> >>> >> future >>>>>> for Kashmir'. But to say that SAS Geelani has never expressed >>> >> regret for the >>>>>> violence that rocked even the pro-Azadi camp from >> within >>> is specious. >>>>>> Kashmiri >>>>>> polticians of all hues routinely >> issue >>> condemnations of incidents of >>>>>> terrorism, and targetted >> assasinations. >>> Geelani, to my knowledge, has not >>>>>> been >>>>>> any >> exception. Eyewitnesses >>> speak of seeing him weeping at Abdul Ghani >>>>>> >> Lone's >>>>>> funeral. I do not >>> know, nor do I care, whether these tears >> were genuine. All >>>>>> I >>>>>> am >>> saying is that if the man has not said >> that he celebrates the assasins of>>>> >>> the elder Mirwaiz, or Abdul Ghani >> Lone, or the attacks on Dr. Shameema >>> that >>>>>> you mention, then, it is >> unfair to accuse him of 'Not Saying' the >>> 'not >>>>>> saying'. He condemns >> assasinations. He does not celebrate the >>> assasin. This >>>>>> means that he >> cannot be accused of being the source of the >>> assasination, >>>>>> unless >> other concrete evidence is brought to bear upon the >>> case. >>>>>> >>>>>>  You >> may be right when you say that SAS Geelani may be saying >>> one thing in >>>>>> >> Delhi and another in Srinagar.  I am not here to judge the >>> sincerity, >> or >>>>>> lack >>>>>> of,  or ambiguity, of these statements. I think >>> >> politically, the significant >>>>>> thing is that whatever he may have said >> in >>> the past, SAS Geelani, HAS to >>>>>> speak >>>>>> a language today that is >> not >>> secterian. He may have done so in the past. Let >>>>>> us remember that >> he was >>> an elected member of the J&K assembly for more than >>>>>> one term >> in the past, >>> and that means he had to swear fealty of some sort to >>>>>> >> the Indian >>> constitution. Judging by this, we should be able to evaluate >> his >>>>>> >>> 'Islamist' commitments in the light of his sometime loyalty to >> an >>> apparently >>>>>> secular constitution. If the sake of argument, we say >> that we >>> should take >>>>>> seriously what came 'after' as representing the >> 'maturing' of >>> his position, >>>>>> then, if his avowedly 'secterian' / >> Islamist / Pro-Pakistan >>> phase came after >>>>>> his phase as an MLA of the >> J&K assembly, then, so too >>> has this 'current' >>>>>> phase >>>>>> come >> 'after' his secterian posturing. I am >>> not the one who needs to split >>>>>> >> these hairs, but clearly, if some emphasis >>> is bieng given to chronology as >> a >>>>>> way of attributing the man's politics >>> to the man's biography, then >> let's >>>>>> stay >>>>>> consistent, and say, that if >>> the current SAS Geelani >> is saying things that >>>>>> don't seem to require the >>> automatic assumption >> of an Isamic state (which is >>>>>> what we would expect >>> from the 'old' >> Geelani, then, we have every reason to >>>>>> take it as >>> seriously as when >> he made his decision to abandon 'mainstream' >>>>>> electoral >>> politics in >> Jammu and Kashmir for the hardline fringe. >>>>>> >>>>>> Indeed, I >>> would go >> so far as to say that as far as we are concerned, we >>>>>> should >>>>>> >>> >> assume, and hold him, and his followers, responsible to the Œevolution¹>> >> of >>>>>> their statements, as they occur. If he goes back on the broad, >>> >> liberal >>>>>> nature >>>>>> of a vision for Azad kashmir (which, >> incidentally, >>> among other things, >>>>>> included the somewhat whimsical >> detail of a provision >>> of compensation for >>>>>> damages were a believing >> Muslim to damage a bottle of >>> alchohl of a >>>>>> non-believer), then, we >> should hold him responsible for that >>> regression. He >>>>>> made a speech >> that was refreshingly free of Islamist >>> rhetoric yesterday, >>>>>> that >>>>>> >> spoke in the broad terms of 'Insaaniyat' - >>> Humanity. If Atal Behari >> Vajpayee >>>>>> can be appreciated, as indeed he should >>> have been, for >> speaking in terms of >>>>>> 'Insaaniyat' when it came to thinking >>> about the >> solution to the question of >>>>>> Jammu and Kashmir, why could the >>> >> mainstream media not pick up the fact that >>>>>> at >>>>>> least in stated >> terms, >>> SAS Geelani was making as major a move, by invoking >>>>>> >> 'Insaaniyat' over >>> secterian considerations, exactly as Vajpayee had >> done. >>>>>> Recognizing this >>> does not require us to align with, or endorse, >> either SAS >>>>>> Geelani, or >>> Atal Behari Vajpayee, it simply requires us to >> register a fact >>>>>> that a >>> major move is in process. That politics is >> being transformed, even as >>>>>> we >>> speak. I am amazed that this >> recognition is being painted as 'alignment, >>>>>> >>> or >>>>>> endorsement'. I >> am amazed that this recognition is not getting the >>> space I >>>>>> think it >> deserves, simply as a NEWS story. SAS Geelani says he >>> wishes India >>>>>> >> to >>>>>> be a strong country, a regional power, that he >>> supports (in >> principle) a >>>>>> future permanent place for India on the United >>> Natons >> Security Council, once >>>>>> Kashmir is liberated   - in other words, he >>> is >> saying, let us go, and we >>>>>> will >>>>>> stand with you, dont you think >>> >> this is BIG news. That is what I was trying >>>>>> to >>>>>> talk about. Trying >> to >>> talk about does not make me a camp follower of SAS >>>>>> Geelani or any >> other >>> politician, in India, Kashmir, or elsewhere. >>>>>> >>>>>> My sense is, >> the >>> movement for Azadi in Kashmir has gone beyond the persona >>>>>> >> of >>>>>> SAS >>> Geelani, and while he is universally respected for his >> integrity and >>>>>> >>> incorruptability, his word is by no means, Œlaw¹. He, >> and other leaders >>> like >>>>>> him, are being Œled¹ as much as they are >> Œleading¹ the people they >>> claim to >>>>>> represent. Part of this process >> means giving up the secterian >>> rhetoric that >>>>>> people in Kashmir >> genuinely feel alienated by. We should >>> welcome this >>>>>> >> development. >>>>>> >>>>>> Now, I come to the views that he >>> holds regarding >> independence and merger >>>>>> with >>>>>> Pakistan. He has said, >>> including >> in his recent interview with Seema Mustafa >>>>>> that he PERSONALLY >>> prefers >> accession to Pakistan, but that he is willing to >>>>>> abide by >>> whatever >> the people of Jammu and Kashmir decide. I do not think >>>>>> that >>>>>> >>> the >> people of Jammu and Kashmir have a future with Pakistan.So, I >>> >> disagree >>>>>> with SAS Geelani's personal view. I strongly argue for a >>> >> demilitarized, >>>>>> independent, secular Jammu and Kashmir. That makes me >>> >> someone who does not >>>>>> endorse SAS Geelani's position. Let's look at >> thigns >>> this way, had this been >>>>>> 1935, I would probably have not been >> in agreement >>> with M.K. Gandhi's vision >>>>>> of >>>>>> what he thought the >> future of South >>> Asia and India ought to be. But that >>>>>> does >>>>>> not >> mean that I would >>> dismiss Gandhi as irrelevant, or someone to be >> mocked >>>>>> and reviled. I >>> would engage with him politicially, as many >> currents in India >>>>>> at that >>> time did. They were not uncritical of >> Gandhi (from the left and the >>>>>> >>> right) but they knew that Gandhi's >> voice had a certain resonance. I think>>>> >>> that >>>>>> the attitude that >> people have towards SAS Geelani is not dissimilar. >>> They >>>>>> may >>>>>> not >> agree with him on many counts, and most Kashmiris that >>> I know >> personally >>>>>> would fit that description. But none would want to >>> dismiss >> or demonize him. >>>>>> Primarily because of his unwillingness to be an >>> >> occasional pawn in the hands >>>>>> of the occupation. >>>>>> >>>>>>  I have yet >> to >>> come across an Indian politician who is willing to say, on >>>>>> >> the >>>>>> >>> record, that he PERSONALLY prefers that Jammu and Kashmir stay >> with >>> India, >>>>>> but >>>>>> will respect whatever the people of Jammu and >> Kashmir >>> decide in a free and >>>>>> fair plebiscite. If that were to be the >> case, then >>> we would get much further >>>>>> than where we are today in >> Kashmir. I have no >>> quarrel with those who want >>>>>> Kashmir to stay in >> India. Theirs is a point >>> of view. It needs to be freely >>>>>> heard, freely >> debated, and if is >>> convincing to the people of Jammu and >>>>>> Kashmir, >> best of luck to those who >>> carry the day. What I am against is >>>>>> >> maintaining Jammu and Kashmir as >>> parts of the Indian Union by force. >> By >>>>>> violence. By occupation. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>> Finally, I come to the five >> points, and whether or not, sticking to the >>>>>> >>> point >>>>>> about Kashmir >> being disputed is an obstacle. Lets face facts. >>> Kashmir is a >>>>>> dispute. >> Every single map of the world that is not printed >>> in India shows >>>>>> >> it, >>>>>> visually, as a disputed territory. That is why >>> the Government of >> India has >>>>>> to >>>>>> put its silly ink stamp on atlases. >>> That is why >> there is a United Nations >>>>>> Observer group in Delhi, Islamabad >>> and >> Srinagar. United Nations observers >>>>>> are >>>>>> present, in the same >> way, >>> in say Cyprus (another dispute) Israel / >>>>>> Palestine, >>>>>> >> another dispute. >>> What is the big deal in saying, yes, it is a dispute. >> Will >>>>>> India >>> disappear if the public secret is admitted to? As far as I >> am >>>>>> >>> concerned >>>>>> borders, and sovereignty, are less important than >> the lives of >>> people. If >>>>>> discussing a border, and what it means, can >> be a method to >>> save lives, then >>>>>> refusing to do so, is a crime. The >> Government of India >>> can offer to >>>>>> 'discuss' >>>>>> - sovereignty over >> those areas of the >>> India-Tibet border that were taken by >>>>>> force >> majeure by British Imperial >>> power, but it will sacrifice the lives of >>>>>> >> hundreds of thousands of people >>> in order to keep the fetish of the >> Indian >>>>>> Union's  soveriegnty and >>> integrity alive in the case of Jammu >> and Kashmir. >>>>>> This policy seems to me >>> to be totally criminal and >> misguided. >>>>>> >>>>>> Borders are made by human >>> beings, and can be changed >> by human beings. The >>>>>> geographical expression >>> of the Union of India is >> not divinely ordained. >>>>>> Sensible people all over >>> the world, understand >> that maps can change, and >>>>>> that >>>>>> they do change. >>> We hope that the >> map of China can someday be drawn in >>>>>> Chinese >>>>>> school >>> text books >> without engulfing Tibet. If that can be a reasonable >>>>>> >>> desire, >>>>>> >> and not be seen as an 'obstruction', why should a similar desire >>> be seen >> as >>>>>> an >>>>>> obstruction in the case of India and Jammu and >>> Kashmir. >> Arnab Goswami >>>>>> repeatedly used the word 'splittist' yestyerday to >>> >> refer to all those who >>>>>> were >>>>>> speaking at the meeting at the LTG >>> >> yesterday. A word that is used by the >>>>>> Chinese government and the >> Chinese >>> Communist Party whenever it refers to the >>>>>> Dalai Lama and the >> movement for >>> a free Tibet. Are we (our government, >>>>>> sections >>>>>> of >> our media) aping >>> the Chinese government and the behemoth of the >> Chinese >>>>>> Communist Party in >>> aligning and endorsing ourselves with the >> fetish of a man >>>>>> made fiction of >>> sovereignty. I should hope that we >> can do better than that. >>>>>> >>>>>> best >>> regards, >>>>>> >>>>>> >> Shuddha >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>> >> _________________________________________ >>>>> reader-list: an open >> discussion >>> list on media and the city. >>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>> >> To subscribe: >>> send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe >>>>> in the >>> subject header. >>>>> To unsubscribe: >>> >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>> List archive: >>> >> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>> >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >>>>> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >>>>> Raqs Media >>> >> Collective >>>>> shuddha at sarai.net >>>>> www.sarai.net >>>>> >>> >> www.raqsmediacollective.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>> >> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open >> discussion >>> list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To >> subscribe: send >>> an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in >> the subject >>> header. >>> To unsubscribe: >>> >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: >>> >> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> ___________________________ >>> ______________ >> reader-list: an open >> discussion list on media and the >>> city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To >> subscribe: send an email to >>> reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in >> the subject header. >> To >>> unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: >>> >> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> > _____________________ >> ____________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the >> city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To >> unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: >> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > From sonia.jabbar at gmail.com Tue Oct 26 16:22:59 2010 From: sonia.jabbar at gmail.com (SJabbar) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 16:22:59 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?iso-8859-1?q?Azadi=3A_The_Only_Way_=AD_Report_fro?= =?iso-8859-1?q?m_a_Turbulent_Few_Hours_in_Delhi?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sorry, didn't mean to be. Was just poking mild fun at your assumed name. I'd be very happy to have a serious conversation with you any time, but it would be nice if I knew whom I was addressing. I'm really not interested in scoring debating points and this is what has been happening in this forum particularly with people with false identities. Sincerely, Sonia On 26/10/10 4:15 PM, "Aditya Raj Baul" wrote: > You can be as contemptuous as you want. Doesn't take away from your > hypocrisy On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 4:10 PM, SJabbar > wrote: > Oh whenever you want, dear boy, since you believe in making > history. > Atilla D. Hun > > > On 26/10/10 4:01 PM, "Aditya Raj Baul" > wrote: > >> My question is: when will you make Rahul > PM? > > On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 3:58 PM, >> SJabbar > wrote: >> Aditya Raj Baul, >> What exactly is >> your question? >> > Sincerely, >> Sonia Gandhi >> >> >> On 26/10/10 2:04 PM, "Aditya >> Raj Baul" > wrote: >> >>> I like it how Sonia Jabbar >> wants to > hold Kashmir hostage to history - >> to the >>> histories of India and >> > Pakistan, to the history of what Geelani >> has or has not >>> done, has or > has >> not said. She does not think history >> is irrelevant to today's >>> > people who >> want azadi today in today's >> context - sorry, she says, India > has >>> signed >> the Simla agreement, and >> Geelani is a fanatic. Thank you. > Fair enough, >>> I >> suppose. But will she >> apply the same rigours of > historical understanding >> to >>> the Indian state >> and its actions in > Kashmir? Please? >> >> On Mon, Oct >> 25, 2010 at >>> 9:53 AM, SJabbar > wrote: >>> Dear >> Shuddha, >>> >>> I think >>> our > differences have narrowed considerably as you >> continue to >>> clarify > your >>> position.  Reading between your lines, you seem >> to think that > I >>> have a >>> problem with your engaging with Mr. Geelani or >> that the > problem was >>> your >>> sharing a stage with him. I do not not.  In >> > politics there are no >>> pariahs. >>>  If someone represents a > constituency-- >> no matter how marginal-- >>> that is >>> part of the social > fabric you cannot >> ignore it.  It may surprise you >>> and >>>  many on this > list to know that Mr. >> Geelani and I have known each other >>> >>> since > 1997 and have extremely frank >> and cordial relations. My problem was> >>> > with the language of your report of >> the meeting where your > enthusiasm >>> >>> (“tallest separatist leader,” he is >> “NOT against > dialogue,” “all that they >>> >>> are asking for is the Right to >> > self-determination”) masked a political >>> >>> reality that was far more >> > complex and brutal.  However, you have since >>> >>> clarified that you do > not >> endorse Mr. Geelani’s  politics and you concede >>> >>> that he may > well have >> been playing to audiences in Delhi,  bringing us more >>> >>> or > less on the >> same page except that past experience has made me less > likely >>> >>> to share >> your belief that someone like Mr. Geelani can be > “USED” or that you >>> >>> can >>  “compel them to come to a degree of > moderation in action, and a >>> >>> >> greater, more imaginative radicalism in > terms of conceptions.” >>> >>> I am >> glad >>> you agree that people and > groups, state and non-state actors who >>> >> have >>> committed crimes must > stand trial and justice must be done, whether >> it >>> is >>> SAS Geelani, > Yasin Malik, Syed Salahuddin or various army generals >> who >>> have >>> > presided over rights abuses while they served in J&K. I have in >> this >>> > forum >>> written of a Truth & Reconciliation Commission modeled on the >> > South >>> African >>> experience that should follow the final settlement on >> > J&K. >>> >>> I am also glad >>> that you agree with my point of the futility > of >> creating a >>> new nation-state >>> in the form of an independent > Kashmir ( “I >> am not for the >>> moment saying and >>> have never said that > an independent >> Kashmir will be in any >>> way a qualitative >>> improvement > (in terms of a >> state form) than an occupied >>> Kashmir,”).  But you >>> > seem to believe that >> it is necessary because “ It may >>> at least lead to > the >>> withdrawal of the >> reality of a brutal occupation.” By >>> this I > assume your >>> vision of regime >> change means replacing one democratic >>> > republic with another >>> democratic >> republic and not an Islamic republic > or a >>> military state.  In >>> which case >> “the reality of a brutal > occupation” must >>> mean the withdrawal of >>> >> hundreds of thousands of > uniformed men in J&K.  But >>> do you really need >> to >>> create a new > nation-state in order to demilitarize >>> Kashmir? >>> >>> >> From 1947 to >>> > 1989 India’s military presence was restricted to the >> borders >>> and to the > few >>> garrisons of Srinagar, Baramulla, Leh, Udhampur >> and Poonch. >>> > Between 1989- >>> 1992 India was being seriously challenged on >> the > military >>> front by thousands >>> of Kashmiri militants and Islamist >> > mujahideen.  The troop >>> surge only >>> happened only around 1992-93 and > the >> Indian military was only >>> able to >>> control the situation around > 1995. In >> 1996 the situation was such >>> that it >>> was the first time in > 6 years it was >> possible to hold elections and >>> yet then >>> as in 2002 > there were hundreds >> of assassinations of political >>> candidates and >>> > ordinary workers of >> political parties (the right to >>> self-determination > is >>> never extended to >> this group). >>> >>> Anyway, my point is that > 500,000 or 700,000 >>> troops were >> not there as a >>> permanent fixture > since 1947 and the ‘most >>> militarized >> place in the world’ >>> was not > always so.  It is both desirable and >>> >> possible to withdraw troops > and >>> it should be done in a phased manner. >>> >>  Though I have been vocal > in >>> advocating this since 2001, sadly, I believe >> it >>> will be linked > to the final >>> settlement and will not happen before >> because of >>> the > many sleeper cells of >>> militants that get activated the >> moment there > is >>> peace or at least as they >>> say ‘normalcy’— as we have >> seen in > last week’s >>> encounter between troops and >>> the JeM in Srinagar. >>  BTW > Srinagar district was >>> one of the districts being >>> examined for the >> > revocation of the Disturbed >>> Areas Act.  This encounter will >>> make it >> > extremely difficult for the state >>> government to do so. >>> >>> >>>  I am > glad >> you agree with me that the 4-point >>> formula can be a solution > to >>> the >> vexed Kashmir issue, however your reading >>> of what went wrong > and putting >>> >> the onus of the failure of implementation >>> squarely on > New Delhi’s >> shoulder >>> is wrong.  Yes, there were delays on New >>> > Delhi’s side, but >> those were not >>> remarkable considering a political >>> > consensus had to be >> built within the >>> country (I think it was in 2008 > during >>> the Amarnath >> Yatra that I explained >>> the entire process at > length in this >>> forum). >>  Very simply what happened was >>> that the > Lawyer’s Movement in >>> Pakistan >> overtook the Kashmir process and once >>> > Mushrraf was ousted and >>> Benazir >> was assassinated the country plunged > into >>> political turmoil and the >>> >> Zaradari government was too weak to > break from >>> Pakistan’s traditional >> stand >>> of the UN Resolutions. >  Both Gen Kayani and the >>> ISI were not >> comfortable >>> with Musharraf’s > radical departure from tradition. >>> Both >> believe Pakistan’s >>> best > interests are served by keeping the Kashmir pot >>> >> boiling, > maintaining >>> India as ‘enemy no 1’, encouraging extremism in >>> >> > Afghanistan to maintain >>> ‘strategic depth,’ and to scuttle any > influence >>> >> India may wield in >>> Afghanistan.  So, as much as I and > many others would >> like >>> to see the 4-point >>> formula being at least > discussed, under the >> present >>> Pakistani dispensation >>> it is highly > unlikely. >>> >>> When you >> advocate a plebiscite and you believe that >>> > the azadi movement must >>> be >> peaceful then you must also accommodate > the >>> possibility of a partitioned >>> >> J&K, where large sections of Jammu > and all of >>> Ladakh would not vote for >>> >> Pakistan (and under what UN > Resolution would the >>> option of independence >> be >>> granted since NO UN > Resolution holds that option >>> and no Kashmiri to >> date has >>> appealed > to the UN to pass a resolution to >>> include the option?) >> And how >>> > would you persuade Pakistan to allow a >>> plebiscite in areas under >> > their >>> control?  And what is your opinion of the >>> vast region of >> > Gilgit-Baltistan >>> that by Pakistani law has been severed from >>> the > state >> of Jammu & Kashmir and >>> where its citizens have NO fundamental >>> > rights as >> its constitutional status >>> has not as yet been > determined? >>> >>> I am >>> >> asking these questions not to score points but > for us to locate what is >>> >>> >> moral or desirable within what is real and > possible not just for >> Kashmiris >>> >>> who are but a small part of the > state, but of all the people >> of Jammu & >>> >>> Kashmir. >>> >>> Best, >>> > Sonia >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >> My question is, what do we > do >>> next. I think that this means that the >> people >>>> 'learn' to USE > them, to >>> compel them to come to a degree of >> moderation in >>>> action, > and a greater, >>> more imaginative radicalism in >> terms of > conceptions. >>>> That is why, the >>> current situation in Kashmir, >> where > the 'Leaders' are being >>>> 'Led' by people >>> is interesting to me. I >> > find it POSITIVE that they have to do >>>> flip-flops so >>> often, from >> > Hartal-to-No Hartal- to Hartal again. This shows >>>> that they are >>> NOT >> > running the street. Things are unpredictable. The change in >>>> the >>> >> > 'temperature' of SAS Geelani's statements may be as much due to the >> > fact >>>> >>> that he is no longer in a position to call all the shots. >> > Therefore, he has >>>> >>> less to lose by 'changing' his tenor. >>>> >>>> > There >> is a way in which the >>> language of politics has changed, and it > has >>>> >> changed because of the way in >>> which people are communicating > on all sorts >> of >>>> fora. Though they may, out >>> of affection, still say > that only Geelani >> will do >>>> the Tarjumani, the truth >>> is, everyone is > doing their own >> Tarjumani now. and >>>> that is the hardest nut >>> for the > Government of India >> to crack. As an anarchist, >>>> I find this >>> > situation, of the actual, >> concrete, refusal of 'representational >>>> forms > of >>> politics' . however >> ephemeral it might be at present, quite >>>> > delightful. SO >>> much so, that a >> 'theatre' of leadership continues, > but >>>> actuality presumes a >>> totally >> different language of > politics. >>>> >>>> I find this a fertile situation, >>> >> one latent with > possibilities, for everyone. >>>> >>>> As for your other >> point, >>> about > how close we all were to the beginnings of the >>>> long road >> towards a >>> > solution with Musharraf's four point formula - I agree >>>> with >> you. But, > then, >>> it was the Government of India that scuttled that >>>> >> > possibility. If the >>> government of India had acted then, on what was on >> > offer, >>>> perhaps things >>> would not have come to the situation where > they >> are at present. >>>> Too much >>> has gone wrong since then. I am not > a >> nationalist of any sort, and to >>>> me, >>> ALL nation states, and all > nation >> states in waiting,  are ultimately the>> >>> actors of the tragedies > of their >> own making and choosing, >>>> So, basically, I >>> am not for the > moment saying >> and have never said that an >>>> independent >>> Kashmir will > be in any way a >> qualitative improvement (in terms of >>>> a state >>> form) > than an occupied >> Kashmir, but, It may at least lead to the >>>> > withdrawal >>> of the reality of >> a brutal occupation. >>>> >>>> For me, > whatever makes that >>> possible, I am >> prepared to accept. There were, > and >>>> remain many >>> possibilities that span >> the spectrum from where > the situation is >>>> at present >>> to Indpendence or >> accession to > Pakistan. But thinking about those >>>> >>> possibilities require >> all > Indians to stop thinking only out of the Indian>> >>> nationalist box. You >> > know very well, that many different kinds of >>> arrangement >>>> could > have >> been explored. including maximum autonomy under the >>> aegis of > a >>>> joint >> India-Pakistan guarantee, which is what I understand the >>> > Musharraf >>>> >> formula to have been, But the bottom line is, whatever is > worked >>> out has to >> be >>>> acceptable to the popular will, hence a > plebiscite with many >>> options >> on offer, >>>> and the freedom to campaign > for the many options in an >>> >> atomsphere free of >>>> coercion. >>>> >>>> > Realistically speaking, I do not >> think >>> that the Government of India has > the >>>> imagination any longer to >> try and >>> think out of the box. If it > can, that would >>>> be great. But, >> going by the >>> ostrich like attitude > of the Government in the >>>> face of the >> obvious >>> alienation of the > Kashmiri people, I very much doubt it. >>>> If >> they had that >>> > intelligence, they could have stopped the killings by the >>>> >> security > forces a >>> long time ago. >>>> >>>> Therefore, the only remaining >> > possibility for ending the >>> occupation seems to >>>> me to be > independence >> for Kashmir, in the short term, >>> under the > custodianship >>>> of the United >> Nations, like happened in Kosovo.Of >>> > course, I strongly assert >>>> that the >> political road to this must be > through >>> non-violent means, through >>>> mass >> political participation, > of as many >>> different sections of the >> population >>>> as possible. It > will be painful, for >>> many Indians to accept, >> but in the long >>>> term, > and in the absence of any >>> other imaginative >> solutions thought through > by >>>> the Indian political elites >>> (that chance >> has come, and sadly, > gone) it will be >>>> in the best interests of >>> the >> people of India. Of > course, the challenge for the >>>> people of Kashmir >>> >> would be to think > through a vision of independence that does >>>> not have >> them >>> switch > slavery to Indian occupation to slavery to the Pakistani >>>> >> > militarist >>> elite. The challenge would be to come up with proposals for >> > a >>>> >>> demilitarized, non-aggressive Kashmir that can preserve its > cultural >> and >>>> >>> social openness and liberality, that can take back > displaced >> minorities, >>> and >>>> can offer them genuine, not token safety > and security. >> That is the hard >>> work >>>> that imaginative politics will > have to undertake >> in Kashmir. And we >>> should >>>> never stop expecting > and demanding that from >> all our Kashmiri >>> friends. I >>>> never, ever > cease doing so. >>>> >>>>  In the >> long term, this fact, >>> an Independent > Kashmir, could actually be the >>>> >> cornerstone of a broad South >>> Asian > Union (modelled on the EU) which >> could >>>> bring the different >>> > nationalities (there may be many by then) of >> South Asia >>>> under an >>> > arrangement of a free trade zone, a visa free zone, >> a customs and >>>> > tarrifs >>> union, a charter on shared ecological concerns, >> and > comprehensive >>>> >>> demilitarization. An independent Kashmir may be the >> > first step in that >>>> >>> direction. Of course this need not happen. > Things >> could get worse if >>> Kashmir >>>> separates. I am well aware and > cognizant of >> that possibility. But, >>> at least, >>>> once the dust and > din settles, in our >> lifetime, there is a >>> likelihood that >>>> once > everyone has climbed off >> their nationalist high >>> horses, things might > be >>>> worked out, amicably and >> reasonably between all the >>> stake > holders of a future >>>> free association >> of South Asian States and >>> > Territories. That, I think is the >>>> only >> guarantee for peace in our > region. I >>> know for certain that an India and >>>> >> Pakistan that > continue to hold on to >>> their respective fragments of Jammu >> and >>>> > Kashmir, and an India that enforces >>> that occupation by military >> force > cannot >>>> contribute to peace in the >>> region. >>>> >>>> That is why, I >> > think that freedom for Kashmir, and also, >>> incidentally for >>>> Tibet, > is >> key to long term peace and stability in Asia, >>> because both > these >>>> >> developments would reduce the necessity of the big >>> poweres > of tomorrow - >> China >>>> and India and to a lesser extent - Pakistan >>> > from being aggressive >> nuclear >>>> powered rivals, and would perhaps, > perhaps, >>> open out the true >> possibility of >>>> what a worthwhile Asian > Century really >>> ought to be like. >> Otherwise, I am >>>> afraid that we > will replay the disasters >>> of the >> European history of the >>>> Twentieth > Century, from the First World War >>> >> onwards, on the soil of Twenty >>>> > First Century Asia. >>>> >>>> >>>> I hope i >> have >>> made myself > clear >>>> >>>> best, >>>> >>>> >>>> >> > Shuddha >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On >>> 23-Oct-10, at 7:45 PM, > SJabbar >> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Sorry for cross-posting but I >>> sent this > message out in the >> morning as a >>>>> response to Shuddha¹s 2nd post >>> > but received an automated >> email saying my >>>>> post had to be reviewed by > the >>> moderator.  Since I >> haven¹t received a >>>>> response (Monica??!) I > assume it >>> was not approved >> or got lost in the vast >>>>> belly of the > Sarai computer! >>>>> >>> >> > ------------------------------------- >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Shuddha, let us > take >> your >>> arguments and apply them to the other side.  Modi >>>>> > belongs to a >> political >>> party that was in power and he was at the helm > when >>>>> the 2002 >> Gujarat >>> carnage took place.  He may not have > explicitly directed it >>>>> >> but he >>> certainly presided over the > violence.  What Modi is like as a >> person, >>>>> >>> whether he is gentle, > cultured, cries at the funeral of his >> friends or his >>>>> >>> rivals are > of no concern to me  (It is well known that >> Goebbels was a >>>>> >>> > cultured man and had a refined taste in music and the >> arts and of > course >>>>> >>> Jinnah ate ham sandwiches). What matters to me is >> that the > man presided >>> over >>>>> the worst kind of violence and has refused >> to, > till date, condemn >>> it >>>>> unambiguously.  Instead he and his party >> > continue to cite the >>> economic >>>>> progress of Muslims in Gujarat to >> > counter it.  The subtext of >>> this‹ and this >>>>> is a South Asian > disease‹ >> is let us forget the past, >>> galtiyan dono taraf se >>>>> huin > hain >> (³action-reaction²), and let us move on. >>>  Whether it is the >>>>> > various >> political parties in India who have incited, >>> controlled and > presided >>>>> >> over the worst communal or sectarian violence from >>> the > 1930¹s to the >> present >>>>> day, or the Pakistani army role in the mass >>> > rapes of >> Bangladesh or the Sri >>>>> Lankan army¹s role against Tamil > civilians, >>> >> every political party in these >>>>> countries seem to be > inflicted by the >> same >>> disease. >>>>> Having said that, I believe it is > the role of civil >> society to be >>> vigilant, >>>>> to be rigorous, to not > succumb to the same >> logic. >>>>> >>>>> I know >>> that you have been > critical of fundamentalist >> politics in this forum >>>>> and >>> others, > whether it is Hindutva or Islamist >> and that is why it surprised >>>>> > me >>> to read your post on the LTG event. >>  You say ³You may be right when > you>>> >>> say that SAS Geelani may be saying >> one thing in Delhi and > another in >>>>> >>> Srinagar.  I am not here to judge >> the sincerity, or > lack of,  or >>> ambiguity, >>>>> of these statements.²  Why >> are you not > here to judge the >>> sincerity or lack >>>>> thereof of these >> statements? >  Surely, one is always >>> judging political >>>>> parties when they >> claim > one or another thing?  How does >>> one align oneself >>>>> politically if >> > one goes simply by manifestos and not by >>> actions?  Judging >>>>> and >> > evaluating is a constant process.  Mamta Bannerjee >>> may have been > one >>>>> >> thing as a member of the opposition but how will she be >>> when > she comes >> to >>>>> power?  One reads her statements, one watches > carefully >>> her >> actions >>>>> following her statements.  If they don¹t > gel, we believe her >>> >> to be >>>>> insincere. >>>>> >>>>> You write: ³I am > amazed that this recognition >> is >>> not getting the space I >>>>> think it > deserves, simply as a NEWS story. >> ³ Do >>> you remember Atal Behari >>>>> > Vajpayee shed tears after the demolition >> of the >>> Babri Masjid and > Advani >>>>> described it as ³the saddest day of his >> life.² >>> Should > these isolated moments >>>>> and statements be highlighted and >> > privileged >>> as representing the 2 men¹s >>>>> position on the Babri Masjid > or >> should one >>> judge them over a longer period >>>>> of time, weighing > their >> statements and >>> their actions? >>>>> >>>>> As for Mr. Geelani and > evaluating >> his actions, do you >>> believe a responsible >>>>> leader ought > to lead from >> the front or give calls to >>> his followers to engage >>>>> > in actions that >> will cause injury or even death >>> from the safety of his > home? >>>>> Mr. >> Geelani is fully aware that in any part >>> of this planet > if you pelt >>>>> >> stones at a man with a gun, there is a fair >>> chance > that the man with the >> gun >>>>> is going to retaliate.  When he was >>> > released from jail he made a >> fine >>>>> statement calling for the end of > the >>> hartaal calendar, saying >> that this was >>>>> not the way forward, > that these >>> protests could not be >> sustained, that life >>>>> could not > come to a standstill >>> (btw, the Sopore >> fruit mandi, his >>>>> > constituency, continued to function >>> through this >> entire period > hartaal >>>>> calendar or not).  These were wise >>> words from a >> man who > has been in politics >>>>> for years.  Wise words or the >>> thinking of >> > the ISI, I¹m not sure because the >>>>> words were echoed by Syed >>> >> > Salahuddin.  What follows is interesting: >>>>> Salahuddin¹s effigy is > burnt >> and >>> a rumour is floated that Mr. Geelani is >>>>> selling out to > Omar >> Abdullah. >>>  Does Mr. Geelani stand by his words?  Does he >>>>> do > what >> Gandhi does after >>> Chauri Chaura?  No, of course not.  He does > a >>>>> total >> U-turn and starts >>> competing with Masrat Alam on the > calendars, >>>>> >> subjecting the people of the >>> valley to more misery. >  What do ordinary >>>>> >> Kashmiris feel about the >>> continuation of this > absurd form of protest >> where >>>>> they and not the >>> Government of India > suffer?  You may find the >> answer in the >>>>> fact that >>> there was not a > single protest when Masrat >> Alam was arrested. >>>>> >>>>> Again >>> Mr. > Geelani saying he Œpersonally¹ >> favours the accession to Pakistan >>>>> > but >>> will Œabide by¹ what the people >> of J&K want is neither here nor > there. >>>>> >>> What you see as a maturing >> position may be read as an > opportunistic one >>>>> >>> until such time as it is >> tested.  As I have > already shown in my last post >>>>> >>> Mr. Geelani, his >> political party > and his ideology have since the mid-90¹s >>>>> >>> shown no such >> respectful > accommodation of the political views of others. >>>  In >>>>> fact >> any > divergence from this view has been silenced by the bullet. >>>  If >> > this >>>>> is someone¹s history‹ and as much as I should wish it > otherwise-- >>> >> it is >>>>> very, very difficult for me to suspend my > cynicism and turn >>> >> enthusiastic >>>>> cartwheels on the basis of one > speech to a select audience >> in >>> New Delhi. >>>>> >>>>> With reference to > your point about borders:  The >> GoI >>> acknowledges that >>>>> Kashmir is > an ³issue² between India and >> Pakistan.  As I >>> have mentioned in my >>>>> > first post, it objects to the >> word ³dispute² as it >>> > internationalizes >>>>> Kashmir, ignores the Simla >> Agreement and takes it > out of >>> the domain of >>>>> bilateral talks back to >> the UN.  If you want > my personal >>> opinion on this >>>>> (and I have argued on >> this list in > the past), I agree with >>> this stand.  I >>>>> see the UN as a >> forum > where, sadly, world powers have >>> always manipulated >>>>> nations and >> it > certainly does not have the moral >>> standing after Iraq and >>>>> >> > Afghanistan to really mediate anywhere in the >>> world.  India and >> > Pakistan >>>>> need to, and can settle the issue taking into >>> account > the >> wishes of all the >>>>> people of J&K as it stood in 1947.  As I >>> > have argued >> in the past and as >>>>> Gen.Musharraf recently said on an > NDTV >>> interview >> that India and Pakistan >>>>> were very close to > drafting an agreement >>> based >> on his 4-point formula. >>>>> > Interestingly, various interpretations of >>> this >> 4-point formula were > thrown >>>>> up by all shades of political parties but >>> >> there was a > broad consensus on >>>>> this whether from the mainstream groups >> or >>> the > separatists.  The only leader >>>>> that rejected this was Mr. >> Geelani > who >>> insisted that the Kashmir ³dispute² >>>>> be solved on the UN >> > Resolutions of >>> 1948! >>>>> >>>>> As for borders themselves: what is > Europe >> today but a borderless >>> continent? >>>>> You critique the idea of > the >> nation-state and yet you want to >>> re-invent the >>>>> wheel by > supporting yet >> another nation-state in independent >>> Kashmir.  Why, >>>>> > when a 21st c. >> solution in the 4-point formula, similar to >>> the form > and >>>>> content of >> the EU, could be in the making? >>>>> >>>>> Best >>> > wishes, >>>>> >> Sonia >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 22/10/10 8:10 PM, > "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" >>> >> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> > Dear Sonia, (don't worry Pawan, its >> a >>> lot less than '3000 > lines') >>>>>> >>>>>> I said - " I do not agree with >> much of >>> what > Geelani Saheb represents >>>>>> politically, or ideologically, >> but I > have >>> no hesitation in saying that what >>>>>> he >>>>>> said yesterday, >> > was surprising >>> for its gentleness, for its consideration, >>>>>> > for >>>>>> >> its moderation, even >>> for its liberality and open > heartedness." >>>>>> >>>>>> >> What part of this sentence >>> seems to suggest > that I am 'aligning' with >> SAS >>>>>> Geelani. The 'I do not >>> agree with > much' does not seem to indicate >> alignment, >>>>>> or endorsement to >>> me. > The rest of the statement is a >> statement of fact. Were >>>>>> SAS Geelani > to >>> have said words that were >> inflammatory yesterday, I would not >>>>>> > have >>> hesitated to said that he >> had. Allow me to elaborate by way of > an >>>>>> >>> example >>>>>> - I have never >> been in agreement with the > political philosophy >>> of >>>>>> M.K.Gandhi, >>>>>> >> but I never make the > mistake of saying that my >>> disagreement with Gandhi >> (my >>>>>> refusal > to endorse Gandhian ideology and >>> what it means >> politically) > amounts >>>>>> to >>>>>> my failure to recognize >>> Gandhi's >> gentleness, > his consideration, his >>>>>> moderation, his liberality >>> and its >> open > heartedness. >>>>>> >>>>>>  I have been strongly critical Islamist >>> >> > politics, including on this forum, >>>>>> whenever I have considered it >>> >> > necessary to do so. That is one thing, and it >>>>>> is >>>>>> where I > would >>> >> differ from SAS Geelani, explicitly, categorically, unless > he >>>>>> makes a >>> >> statement, like the Mirwaiz did recently, abjuring an > 'Islamist >>>>>> >>> >> future >>>>>> for Kashmir'. But to say that SAS > Geelani has never expressed >>> >> regret for the >>>>>> violence that rocked > even the pro-Azadi camp from >> within >>> is specious. >>>>>> Kashmiri >>>>>> > polticians of all hues routinely >> issue >>> condemnations of incidents > of >>>>>> terrorism, and targetted >> assasinations. >>> Geelani, to my > knowledge, has not >>>>>> been >>>>>> any >> exception. Eyewitnesses >>> speak > of seeing him weeping at Abdul Ghani >>>>>> >> Lone's >>>>>> funeral. I do > not >>> know, nor do I care, whether these tears >> were genuine. All >>>>>> > I >>>>>> am >>> saying is that if the man has not said >> that he celebrates > the assasins of>>>> >>> the elder Mirwaiz, or Abdul Ghani >> Lone, or the > attacks on Dr. Shameema >>> that >>>>>> you mention, then, it is >> unfair to > accuse him of 'Not Saying' the >>> 'not >>>>>> saying'. He condemns >> > assasinations. He does not celebrate the >>> assasin. This >>>>>> means that > he >> cannot be accused of being the source of the >>> assasination, >>>>>> > unless >> other concrete evidence is brought to bear upon the >>> > case. >>>>>> >>>>>>  You >> may be right when you say that SAS Geelani may be > saying >>> one thing in >>>>>> >> Delhi and another in Srinagar.  I am not > here to judge the >>> sincerity, >> or >>>>>> lack >>>>>> of,  or ambiguity, > of these statements. I think >>> >> politically, the significant >>>>>> thing > is that whatever he may have said >> in >>> the past, SAS Geelani, HAS > to >>>>>> speak >>>>>> a language today that is >> not >>> secterian. He may > have done so in the past. Let >>>>>> us remember that >> he was >>> an elected > member of the J&K assembly for more than >>>>>> one term >> in the past, >>> > and that means he had to swear fealty of some sort to >>>>>> >> the Indian >>> > constitution. Judging by this, we should be able to evaluate >> his >>>>>> >>> > 'Islamist' commitments in the light of his sometime loyalty to >> an >>> > apparently >>>>>> secular constitution. If the sake of argument, we say >> > that we >>> should take >>>>>> seriously what came 'after' as representing > the >> 'maturing' of >>> his position, >>>>>> then, if his avowedly > 'secterian' / >> Islamist / Pro-Pakistan >>> phase came after >>>>>> his phase > as an MLA of the >> J&K assembly, then, so too >>> has this 'current' >>>>>> > phase >>>>>> come >> 'after' his secterian posturing. I am >>> not the one who > needs to split >>>>>> >> these hairs, but clearly, if some emphasis >>> is > bieng given to chronology as >> a >>>>>> way of attributing the man's > politics >>> to the man's biography, then >> let's >>>>>> stay >>>>>> > consistent, and say, that if >>> the current SAS Geelani >> is saying things > that >>>>>> don't seem to require the >>> automatic assumption >> of an Isamic > state (which is >>>>>> what we would expect >>> from the 'old' >> Geelani, > then, we have every reason to >>>>>> take it as >>> seriously as when >> he > made his decision to abandon 'mainstream' >>>>>> electoral >>> politics in >> > Jammu and Kashmir for the hardline fringe. >>>>>> >>>>>> Indeed, I >>> would > go >> so far as to say that as far as we are concerned, we >>>>>> > should >>>>>> >>> >> assume, and hold him, and his followers, responsible to > the Œevolution¹>> >> of >>>>>> their statements, as they occur. If he goes > back on the broad, >>> >> liberal >>>>>> nature >>>>>> of a vision for Azad > kashmir (which, >> incidentally, >>> among other things, >>>>>> included the > somewhat whimsical >> detail of a provision >>> of compensation for >>>>>> > damages were a believing >> Muslim to damage a bottle of >>> alchohl of > a >>>>>> non-believer), then, we >> should hold him responsible for that >>> > regression. He >>>>>> made a speech >> that was refreshingly free of > Islamist >>> rhetoric yesterday, >>>>>> that >>>>>> >> spoke in the broad > terms of 'Insaaniyat' - >>> Humanity. If Atal Behari >> Vajpayee >>>>>> can be > appreciated, as indeed he should >>> have been, for >> speaking in terms > of >>>>>> 'Insaaniyat' when it came to thinking >>> about the >> solution to > the question of >>>>>> Jammu and Kashmir, why could the >>> >> mainstream > media not pick up the fact that >>>>>> at >>>>>> least in stated >> terms, >>> > SAS Geelani was making as major a move, by invoking >>>>>> >> 'Insaaniyat' > over >>> secterian considerations, exactly as Vajpayee had >> done. >>>>>> > Recognizing this >>> does not require us to align with, or endorse, >> either > SAS >>>>>> Geelani, or >>> Atal Behari Vajpayee, it simply requires us to >> > register a fact >>>>>> that a >>> major move is in process. That politics > is >> being transformed, even as >>>>>> we >>> speak. I am amazed that this >> > recognition is being painted as 'alignment, >>>>>> >>> or >>>>>> endorsement'. > I >> am amazed that this recognition is not getting the >>> space I >>>>>> > think it >> deserves, simply as a NEWS story. SAS Geelani says he >>> wishes > India >>>>>> >> to >>>>>> be a strong country, a regional power, that he >>> > supports (in >> principle) a >>>>>> future permanent place for India on the > United >>> Natons >> Security Council, once >>>>>> Kashmir is liberated   - in > other words, he >>> is >> saying, let us go, and we >>>>>> will >>>>>> stand > with you, dont you think >>> >> this is BIG news. That is what I was > trying >>>>>> to >>>>>> talk about. Trying >> to >>> talk about does not make > me a camp follower of SAS >>>>>> Geelani or any >> other >>> politician, in > India, Kashmir, or elsewhere. >>>>>> >>>>>> My sense is, >> the >>> movement > for Azadi in Kashmir has gone beyond the persona >>>>>> >> of >>>>>> SAS >>> > Geelani, and while he is universally respected for his >> integrity > and >>>>>> >>> incorruptability, his word is by no means, Œlaw¹. He, >> and > other leaders >>> like >>>>>> him, are being Œled¹ as much as they are >> > Œleading¹ the people they >>> claim to >>>>>> represent. Part of this > process >> means giving up the secterian >>> rhetoric that >>>>>> people in > Kashmir >> genuinely feel alienated by. We should >>> welcome this >>>>>> >> > development. >>>>>> >>>>>> Now, I come to the views that he >>> holds > regarding >> independence and merger >>>>>> with >>>>>> Pakistan. He has > said, >>> including >> in his recent interview with Seema Mustafa >>>>>> that > he PERSONALLY >>> prefers >> accession to Pakistan, but that he is willing > to >>>>>> abide by >>> whatever >> the people of Jammu and Kashmir decide. I > do not think >>>>>> that >>>>>> >>> the >> people of Jammu and Kashmir have a > future with Pakistan.So, I >>> >> disagree >>>>>> with SAS Geelani's personal > view. I strongly argue for a >>> >> demilitarized, >>>>>> independent, secular > Jammu and Kashmir. That makes me >>> >> someone who does not >>>>>> endorse > SAS Geelani's position. Let's look at >> thigns >>> this way, had this > been >>>>>> 1935, I would probably have not been >> in agreement >>> with M.K. > Gandhi's vision >>>>>> of >>>>>> what he thought the >> future of South >>> > Asia and India ought to be. But that >>>>>> does >>>>>> not >> mean that I > would >>> dismiss Gandhi as irrelevant, or someone to be >> mocked >>>>>> and > reviled. I >>> would engage with him politicially, as many >> currents in > India >>>>>> at that >>> time did. They were not uncritical of >> Gandhi (from > the left and the >>>>>> >>> right) but they knew that Gandhi's >> voice had a > certain resonance. I think>>>> >>> that >>>>>> the attitude that >> people > have towards SAS Geelani is not dissimilar. >>> They >>>>>> may >>>>>> not >> > agree with him on many counts, and most Kashmiris that >>> I know >> > personally >>>>>> would fit that description. But none would want to >>> > dismiss >> or demonize him. >>>>>> Primarily because of his unwillingness to > be an >>> >> occasional pawn in the hands >>>>>> of the > occupation. >>>>>> >>>>>>  I have yet >> to >>> come across an Indian > politician who is willing to say, on >>>>>> >> the >>>>>> >>> record, that he > PERSONALLY prefers that Jammu and Kashmir stay >> with >>> India, >>>>>> > but >>>>>> will respect whatever the people of Jammu and >> Kashmir >>> decide > in a free and >>>>>> fair plebiscite. If that were to be the >> case, then >>> > we would get much further >>>>>> than where we are today in >> Kashmir. I have > no >>> quarrel with those who want >>>>>> Kashmir to stay in >> India. Theirs > is a point >>> of view. It needs to be freely >>>>>> heard, freely >> debated, > and if is >>> convincing to the people of Jammu and >>>>>> Kashmir, >> best of > luck to those who >>> carry the day. What I am against is >>>>>> >> > maintaining Jammu and Kashmir as >>> parts of the Indian Union by force. >> > By >>>>>> violence. By occupation. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>> Finally, I come to the > five >> points, and whether or not, sticking to the >>>>>> >>> point >>>>>> > about Kashmir >> being disputed is an obstacle. Lets face facts. >>> Kashmir > is a >>>>>> dispute. >> Every single map of the world that is not printed >>> > in India shows >>>>>> >> it, >>>>>> visually, as a disputed territory. That is > why >>> the Government of >> India has >>>>>> to >>>>>> put its silly ink > stamp on atlases. >>> That is why >> there is a United Nations >>>>>> Observer > group in Delhi, Islamabad >>> and >> Srinagar. United Nations observers >>>>>> > are >>>>>> present, in the same >> way, >>> in say Cyprus (another dispute) > Israel / >>>>>> Palestine, >>>>>> >> another dispute. >>> What is the big deal > in saying, yes, it is a dispute. >> Will >>>>>> India >>> disappear if the > public secret is admitted to? As far as I >> am >>>>>> >>> concerned >>>>>> > borders, and sovereignty, are less important than >> the lives of >>> people. > If >>>>>> discussing a border, and what it means, can >> be a method to >>> > save lives, then >>>>>> refusing to do so, is a crime. The >> Government of > India >>> can offer to >>>>>> 'discuss' >>>>>> - sovereignty over >> those > areas of the >>> India-Tibet border that were taken by >>>>>> force >> majeure > by British Imperial >>> power, but it will sacrifice the lives of >>>>>> >> > hundreds of thousands of people >>> in order to keep the fetish of the >> > Indian >>>>>> Union's  soveriegnty and >>> integrity alive in the case of > Jammu >> and Kashmir. >>>>>> This policy seems to me >>> to be totally > criminal and >> misguided. >>>>>> >>>>>> Borders are made by human >>> beings, > and can be changed >> by human beings. The >>>>>> geographical expression >>> > of the Union of India is >> not divinely ordained. >>>>>> Sensible people all > over >>> the world, understand >> that maps can change, and >>>>>> that >>>>>> > they do change. >>> We hope that the >> map of China can someday be drawn > in >>>>>> Chinese >>>>>> school >>> text books >> without engulfing Tibet. If > that can be a reasonable >>>>>> >>> desire, >>>>>> >> and not be seen as an > 'obstruction', why should a similar desire >>> be seen >> as >>>>>> an >>>>>> > obstruction in the case of India and Jammu and >>> Kashmir. >> Arnab > Goswami >>>>>> repeatedly used the word 'splittist' yestyerday to >>> >> refer > to all those who >>>>>> were >>>>>> speaking at the meeting at the LTG >>> >> > yesterday. A word that is used by the >>>>>> Chinese government and the >> > Chinese >>> Communist Party whenever it refers to the >>>>>> Dalai Lama and > the >> movement for >>> a free Tibet. Are we (our government, >>>>>> > sections >>>>>> of >> our media) aping >>> the Chinese government and the > behemoth of the >> Chinese >>>>>> Communist Party in >>> aligning and > endorsing ourselves with the >> fetish of a man >>>>>> made fiction of >>> > sovereignty. I should hope that we >> can do better than that. >>>>>> >>>>>> > best >>> regards, >>>>>> >>>>>> >> > Shuddha >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>> >> > _________________________________________ >>>>> reader-list: an open >> > discussion >>> list on media and the city. >>>>> Critiques & > Collaborations >>>>> >> To subscribe: >>> send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe >>>>> in the >>> subject > header. >>>>> To unsubscribe: >>> >> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>> List archive: >>> >> > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>> > >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >>>>> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >>>>> Raqs > Media >>> >> Collective >>>>> shuddha at sarai.net >>>>> > www.sarai.net >>>>> >>> >> > www.raqsmediacollective.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>> >> > _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open >> > discussion >>> list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> > To >> subscribe: send >>> an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in >> the subject >>> header. >>> To unsubscribe: >>> >> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: >>> >> > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> > ___________________________ >>> ______________ >> reader-list: an open >> > discussion list on media and the >>> city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> > To >> subscribe: send an email to >>> reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in >> the subject header. >> To >>> unsubscribe: >> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: >>> >> > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> > > _____________________ >> ____________________ > reader-list: an open > discussion list on media and the >> city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To > subscribe: send an email to >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. > To >> unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: >> > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _____________________ > ____________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To > unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From adityarajbaul at gmail.com Tue Oct 26 16:32:04 2010 From: adityarajbaul at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Baul) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 16:32:04 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?iso-8859-1?q?Azadi=3A_The_Only_Way_=AD_Report_fro?= =?iso-8859-1?q?m_a_Turbulent_Few_Hours_in_Delhi?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My name is Aditya Raj Baul. Just because I'm not famous like you, you can allege that my real name is something else. This is offensive, to say the least. Your pre-condition for dialogue with me proves my charge. If my "real" identity matters to thsi conversation, as you claim it does, then it means your response would depend on who I am. You would say one thing if I were Praveen Swami, another if I were Dileep Padgaonkar, a third if I were the India editor of The India, Australia, something completely different if I were Masarat Alam, something more nuanced if I were Yasin Malik, something more aggressive if I were SAS Geelani. You accuse me of not being Aditya Raj Baul. Yet it is you who's afraid of being Sonia Jabbar. For all you know, may be I'm you. I asked you: "I like it how Sonia Jabbar wants to hold Kashmir hostage to history - to the histories of India and Pakistan, to the history of what Geelani has or has not done, has or has not said. She does not think history is irrelevant to today's people who want azadi today in today's context - sorry, she says, India has signed the Simla agreement, and Geelani is a fanatic. Thank you. Fair enough, I suppose. But will she apply the same rigours of historical understanding to the Indian state and its actions in Kashmir? Please?" I would be happy to clarify my question, if only you'd ask me what about it you don't understand. But all you want to do is be condescending, suspicious and irritable. Thanks but not thanks, Aditya Raj Baul On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 4:22 PM, SJabbar wrote: > Sorry, didn't mean to be.  Was just poking mild fun at your assumed name. > I'd be very happy to have a serious conversation with you any time, but it > would be nice if I knew whom I was addressing.  I'm really not interested in > scoring debating points and this is what has been happening in this forum > particularly with people with false identities. > Sincerely, > Sonia > > > On 26/10/10 4:15 PM, "Aditya Raj Baul" wrote: > >> You can be as contemptuous as you want. Doesn't take away from your >> hypocrisy > > On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 4:10 PM, SJabbar >> wrote: >> Oh whenever you want, dear boy, since you believe in making >> history. >> Atilla D. Hun >> >> >> On 26/10/10 4:01 PM, "Aditya Raj Baul" >> wrote: >> >>> My question is: when will you make Rahul >> PM? >> >> On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 3:58 PM, >>> SJabbar >> wrote: >>> Aditya Raj Baul, >>> What exactly is >>> your question? >>> >> Sincerely, >>> Sonia Gandhi >>> >>> >>> On 26/10/10 2:04 PM, "Aditya >>> Raj Baul" >> wrote: >>> >>>> I like it how Sonia Jabbar >>> wants to >> hold Kashmir hostage to history - >>> to the >>>> histories of India and >>> >> Pakistan, to the history of what Geelani >>> has or has not >>>> done, has or >> has >>> not said. She does not think history >>> is irrelevant to today's >>>> >> people who >>> want azadi today in today's >>> context - sorry, she says, India >> has >>>> signed >>> the Simla agreement, and >>> Geelani is a fanatic. Thank you. >> Fair enough, >>>> I >>> suppose. But will she >>> apply the same rigours of >> historical understanding >>> to >>>> the Indian state >>> and its actions in >> Kashmir? Please? >>> >>> On Mon, Oct >>> 25, 2010 at >>>> 9:53 AM, SJabbar >> wrote: >>>> Dear >>> Shuddha, >>>> >>>> I think >>>> our >> differences have narrowed considerably as you >>> continue to >>>> clarify >> your >>>> position.  Reading between your lines, you seem >>> to think that >> I >>>> have a >>>> problem with your engaging with Mr. Geelani or >>> that the >> problem was >>>> your >>>> sharing a stage with him. I do not not.  In >>> >> politics there are no >>>> pariahs. >>>>  If someone represents a >> constituency-- >>> no matter how marginal-- >>>> that is >>>> part of the social >> fabric you cannot >>> ignore it.  It may surprise you >>>> and >>>>  many on this >> list to know that Mr. >>> Geelani and I have known each other >>>> >>>> since >> 1997 and have extremely frank >>> and cordial relations. My problem was> >>>> >> with the language of your report of >>> the meeting where your >> enthusiasm >>>> >>>> (“tallest separatist leader,” he is >>> “NOT against >> dialogue,” “all that they >>>> >>>> are asking for is the Right to >>> >> self-determination”) masked a political >>>> >>>> reality that was far more >>> >> complex and brutal.  However, you have since >>>> >>>> clarified that you do >> not >>> endorse Mr. Geelani’s  politics and you concede >>>> >>>> that he may >> well have >>> been playing to audiences in Delhi,  bringing us more >>>> >>>> or >> less on the >>> same page except that past experience has made me less >> likely >>>> >>>> to share >>> your belief that someone like Mr. Geelani can be >> “USED” or that you >>>> >>>> can >>>  “compel them to come to a degree of >> moderation in action, and a >>>> >>>> >>> greater, more imaginative radicalism in >> terms of conceptions.” >>>> >>>> I am >>> glad >>>> you agree that people and >> groups, state and non-state actors who >>>> >>> have >>>> committed crimes must >> stand trial and justice must be done, whether >>> it >>>> is >>>> SAS Geelani, >> Yasin Malik, Syed Salahuddin or various army generals >>> who >>>> have >>>> >> presided over rights abuses while they served in J&K. I have in >>> this >>>> >> forum >>>> written of a Truth & Reconciliation Commission modeled on the >>> >> South >>>> African >>>> experience that should follow the final settlement on >>> >> J&K. >>>> >>>> I am also glad >>>> that you agree with my point of the futility >> of >>> creating a >>>> new nation-state >>>> in the form of an independent >> Kashmir ( “I >>> am not for the >>>> moment saying and >>>> have never said that >> an independent >>> Kashmir will be in any >>>> way a qualitative >>>> improvement >> (in terms of a >>> state form) than an occupied >>>> Kashmir,”).  But you >>>> >> seem to believe that >>> it is necessary because “ It may >>>> at least lead to >> the >>>> withdrawal of the >>> reality of a brutal occupation.” By >>>> this I >> assume your >>>> vision of regime >>> change means replacing one democratic >>>> >> republic with another >>>> democratic >>> republic and not an Islamic republic >> or a >>>> military state.  In >>>> which case >>> “the reality of a brutal >> occupation” must >>>> mean the withdrawal of >>>> >>> hundreds of thousands of >> uniformed men in J&K.  But >>>> do you really need >>> to >>>> create a new >> nation-state in order to demilitarize >>>> Kashmir? >>>> >>>> >>> From 1947 to >>>> >> 1989 India’s military presence was restricted to the >>> borders >>>> and to the >> few >>>> garrisons of Srinagar, Baramulla, Leh, Udhampur >>> and Poonch. >>>> >> Between 1989- >>>> 1992 India was being seriously challenged on >>> the >> military >>>> front by thousands >>>> of Kashmiri militants and Islamist >>> >> mujahideen.  The troop >>>> surge only >>>> happened only around 1992-93 and >> the >>> Indian military was only >>>> able to >>>> control the situation around >> 1995. In >>> 1996 the situation was such >>>> that it >>>> was the first time in >> 6 years it was >>> possible to hold elections and >>>> yet then >>>> as in 2002 >> there were hundreds >>> of assassinations of political >>>> candidates and >>>> >> ordinary workers of >>> political parties (the right to >>>> self-determination >> is >>>> never extended to >>> this group). >>>> >>>> Anyway, my point is that >> 500,000 or 700,000 >>>> troops were >>> not there as a >>>> permanent fixture >> since 1947 and the ‘most >>>> militarized >>> place in the world’ >>>> was not >> always so.  It is both desirable and >>>> >>> possible to withdraw troops >> and >>>> it should be done in a phased manner. >>>> >>>  Though I have been vocal >> in >>>> advocating this since 2001, sadly, I believe >>> it >>>> will be linked >> to the final >>>> settlement and will not happen before >>> because of >>>> the >> many sleeper cells of >>>> militants that get activated the >>> moment there >> is >>>> peace or at least as they >>>> say ‘normalcy’— as we have >>> seen in >> last week’s >>>> encounter between troops and >>>> the JeM in Srinagar. >>>  BTW >> Srinagar district was >>>> one of the districts being >>>> examined for the >>> >> revocation of the Disturbed >>>> Areas Act.  This encounter will >>>> make it >>> >> extremely difficult for the state >>>> government to do so. >>>> >>>> >>>>  I am >> glad >>> you agree with me that the 4-point >>>> formula can be a solution >> to >>>> the >>> vexed Kashmir issue, however your reading >>>> of what went wrong >> and putting >>>> >>> the onus of the failure of implementation >>>> squarely on >> New Delhi’s >>> shoulder >>>> is wrong.  Yes, there were delays on New >>>> >> Delhi’s side, but >>> those were not >>>> remarkable considering a political >>>> >> consensus had to be >>> built within the >>>> country (I think it was in 2008 >> during >>>> the Amarnath >>> Yatra that I explained >>>> the entire process at >> length in this >>>> forum). >>>  Very simply what happened was >>>> that the >> Lawyer’s Movement in >>>> Pakistan >>> overtook the Kashmir process and once >>>> >> Mushrraf was ousted and >>>> Benazir >>> was assassinated the country plunged >> into >>>> political turmoil and the >>>> >>> Zaradari government was too weak to >> break from >>>> Pakistan’s traditional >>> stand >>>> of the UN Resolutions. >>  Both Gen Kayani and the >>>> ISI were not >>> comfortable >>>> with Musharraf’s >> radical departure from tradition. >>>> Both >>> believe Pakistan’s >>>> best >> interests are served by keeping the Kashmir pot >>>> >>> boiling, >> maintaining >>>> India as ‘enemy no 1’, encouraging extremism in >>>> >>> >> Afghanistan to maintain >>>> ‘strategic depth,’ and to scuttle any >> influence >>>> >>> India may wield in >>>> Afghanistan.  So, as much as I and >> many others would >>> like >>>> to see the 4-point >>>> formula being at least >> discussed, under the >>> present >>>> Pakistani dispensation >>>> it is highly >> unlikely. >>>> >>>> When you >>> advocate a plebiscite and you believe that >>>> >> the azadi movement must >>>> be >>> peaceful then you must also accommodate >> the >>>> possibility of a partitioned >>>> >>> J&K, where large sections of Jammu >> and all of >>>> Ladakh would not vote for >>>> >>> Pakistan (and under what UN >> Resolution would the >>>> option of independence >>> be >>>> granted since NO UN >> Resolution holds that option >>>> and no Kashmiri to >>> date has >>>> appealed >> to the UN to pass a resolution to >>>> include the option?) >>> And how >>>> >> would you persuade Pakistan to allow a >>>> plebiscite in areas under >>> >> their >>>> control?  And what is your opinion of the >>>> vast region of >>> >> Gilgit-Baltistan >>>> that by Pakistani law has been severed from >>>> the >> state >>> of Jammu & Kashmir and >>>> where its citizens have NO fundamental >>>> >> rights as >>> its constitutional status >>>> has not as yet been >> determined? >>>> >>>> I am >>>> >>> asking these questions not to score points but >> for us to locate what is >>>> >>>> >>> moral or desirable within what is real and >> possible not just for >>> Kashmiris >>>> >>>> who are but a small part of the >> state, but of all the people >>> of Jammu & >>>> >>>> Kashmir. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >> Sonia >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>> My question is, what do we >> do >>>> next. I think that this means that the >>> people >>>>> 'learn' to USE >> them, to >>>> compel them to come to a degree of >>> moderation in >>>>> action, >> and a greater, >>>> more imaginative radicalism in >>> terms of >> conceptions. >>>>> That is why, the >>>> current situation in Kashmir, >>> where >> the 'Leaders' are being >>>>> 'Led' by people >>>> is interesting to me. I >>> >> find it POSITIVE that they have to do >>>>> flip-flops so >>>> often, from >>> >> Hartal-to-No Hartal- to Hartal again. This shows >>>>> that they are >>>> NOT >>> >> running the street. Things are unpredictable. The change in >>>>> the >>>> >>> >> 'temperature' of SAS Geelani's statements may be as much due to the >>> >> fact >>>>> >>>> that he is no longer in a position to call all the shots. >>> >> Therefore, he has >>>>> >>>> less to lose by 'changing' his tenor. >>>>> >>>>> >> There >>> is a way in which the >>>> language of politics has changed, and it >> has >>>>> >>> changed because of the way in >>>> which people are communicating >> on all sorts >>> of >>>>> fora. Though they may, out >>>> of affection, still say >> that only Geelani >>> will do >>>>> the Tarjumani, the truth >>>> is, everyone is >> doing their own >>> Tarjumani now. and >>>>> that is the hardest nut >>>> for the >> Government of India >>> to crack. As an anarchist, >>>>> I find this >>>> >> situation, of the actual, >>> concrete, refusal of 'representational >>>>> forms >> of >>>> politics' . however >>> ephemeral it might be at present, quite >>>>> >> delightful. SO >>>> much so, that a >>> 'theatre' of leadership continues, >> but >>>>> actuality presumes a >>>> totally >>> different language of >> politics. >>>>> >>>>> I find this a fertile situation, >>>> >>> one latent with >> possibilities, for everyone. >>>>> >>>>> As for your other >>> point, >>>> about >> how close we all were to the beginnings of the >>>>> long road >>> towards a >>>> >> solution with Musharraf's four point formula - I agree >>>>> with >>> you. But, >> then, >>>> it was the Government of India that scuttled that >>>>> >>> >> possibility. If the >>>> government of India had acted then, on what was on >>> >> offer, >>>>> perhaps things >>>> would not have come to the situation where >> they >>> are at present. >>>>> Too much >>>> has gone wrong since then. I am not >> a >>> nationalist of any sort, and to >>>>> me, >>>> ALL nation states, and all >> nation >>> states in waiting,  are ultimately the>> >>>> actors of the tragedies >> of their >>> own making and choosing, >>>>> So, basically, I >>>> am not for the >> moment saying >>> and have never said that an >>>>> independent >>>> Kashmir will >> be in any way a >>> qualitative improvement (in terms of >>>>> a state >>>> form) >> than an occupied >>> Kashmir, but, It may at least lead to the >>>>> >> withdrawal >>>> of the reality of >>> a brutal occupation. >>>>> >>>>> For me, >> whatever makes that >>>> possible, I am >>> prepared to accept. There were, >> and >>>>> remain many >>>> possibilities that span >>> the spectrum from where >> the situation is >>>>> at present >>>> to Indpendence or >>> accession to >> Pakistan. But thinking about those >>>>> >>>> possibilities require >>> all >> Indians to stop thinking only out of the Indian>> >>>> nationalist box. You >>> >> know very well, that many different kinds of >>>> arrangement >>>>> could >> have >>> been explored. including maximum autonomy under the >>>> aegis of >> a >>>>> joint >>> India-Pakistan guarantee, which is what I understand the >>>> >> Musharraf >>>>> >>> formula to have been, But the bottom line is, whatever is >> worked >>>> out has to >>> be >>>>> acceptable to the popular will, hence a >> plebiscite with many >>>> options >>> on offer, >>>>> and the freedom to campaign >> for the many options in an >>>> >>> atomsphere free of >>>>> coercion. >>>>> >>>>> >> Realistically speaking, I do not >>> think >>>> that the Government of India has >> the >>>>> imagination any longer to >>> try and >>>> think out of the box. If it >> can, that would >>>>> be great. But, >>> going by the >>>> ostrich like attitude >> of the Government in the >>>>> face of the >>> obvious >>>> alienation of the >> Kashmiri people, I very much doubt it. >>>>> If >>> they had that >>>> >> intelligence, they could have stopped the killings by the >>>>> >>> security >> forces a >>>> long time ago. >>>>> >>>>> Therefore, the only remaining >>> >> possibility for ending the >>>> occupation seems to >>>>> me to be >> independence >>> for Kashmir, in the short term, >>>> under the >> custodianship >>>>> of the United >>> Nations, like happened in Kosovo.Of >>>> >> course, I strongly assert >>>>> that the >>> political road to this must be >> through >>>> non-violent means, through >>>>> mass >>> political participation, >> of as many >>>> different sections of the >>> population >>>>> as possible. It >> will be painful, for >>>> many Indians to accept, >>> but in the long >>>>> term, >> and in the absence of any >>>> other imaginative >>> solutions thought through >> by >>>>> the Indian political elites >>>> (that chance >>> has come, and sadly, >> gone) it will be >>>>> in the best interests of >>>> the >>> people of India. Of >> course, the challenge for the >>>>> people of Kashmir >>>> >>> would be to think >> through a vision of independence that does >>>>> not have >>> them >>>> switch >> slavery to Indian occupation to slavery to the Pakistani >>>>> >>> >> militarist >>>> elite. The challenge would be to come up with proposals for >>> >> a >>>>> >>>> demilitarized, non-aggressive Kashmir that can preserve its >> cultural >>> and >>>>> >>>> social openness and liberality, that can take back >> displaced >>> minorities, >>>> and >>>>> can offer them genuine, not token safety >> and security. >>> That is the hard >>>> work >>>>> that imaginative politics will >> have to undertake >>> in Kashmir. And we >>>> should >>>>> never stop expecting >> and demanding that from >>> all our Kashmiri >>>> friends. I >>>>> never, ever >> cease doing so. >>>>> >>>>>  In the >>> long term, this fact, >>>> an Independent >> Kashmir, could actually be the >>>>> >>> cornerstone of a broad South >>>> Asian >> Union (modelled on the EU) which >>> could >>>>> bring the different >>>> >> nationalities (there may be many by then) of >>> South Asia >>>>> under an >>>> >> arrangement of a free trade zone, a visa free zone, >>> a customs and >>>>> >> tarrifs >>>> union, a charter on shared ecological concerns, >>> and >> comprehensive >>>>> >>>> demilitarization. An independent Kashmir may be the >>> >> first step in that >>>>> >>>> direction. Of course this need not happen. >> Things >>> could get worse if >>>> Kashmir >>>>> separates. I am well aware and >> cognizant of >>> that possibility. But, >>>> at least, >>>>> once the dust and >> din settles, in our >>> lifetime, there is a >>>> likelihood that >>>>> once >> everyone has climbed off >>> their nationalist high >>>> horses, things might >> be >>>>> worked out, amicably and >>> reasonably between all the >>>> stake >> holders of a future >>>>> free association >>> of South Asian States and >>>> >> Territories. That, I think is the >>>>> only >>> guarantee for peace in our >> region. I >>>> know for certain that an India and >>>>> >>> Pakistan that >> continue to hold on to >>>> their respective fragments of Jammu >>> and >>>>> >> Kashmir, and an India that enforces >>>> that occupation by military >>> force >> cannot >>>>> contribute to peace in the >>>> region. >>>>> >>>>> That is why, I >>> >> think that freedom for Kashmir, and also, >>>> incidentally for >>>>> Tibet, >> is >>> key to long term peace and stability in Asia, >>>> because both >> these >>>>> >>> developments would reduce the necessity of the big >>>> poweres >> of tomorrow - >>> China >>>>> and India and to a lesser extent - Pakistan >>>> >> from being aggressive >>> nuclear >>>>> powered rivals, and would perhaps, >> perhaps, >>>> open out the true >>> possibility of >>>>> what a worthwhile Asian >> Century really >>>> ought to be like. >>> Otherwise, I am >>>>> afraid that we >> will replay the disasters >>>> of the >>> European history of the >>>>> Twentieth >> Century, from the First World War >>>> >>> onwards, on the soil of Twenty >>>>> >> First Century Asia. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I hope i >>> have >>>> made myself >> clear >>>>> >>>>> best, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>> >> Shuddha >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On >>>> 23-Oct-10, at 7:45 PM, >> SJabbar >>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Sorry for cross-posting but I >>>> sent this >> message out in the >>> morning as a >>>>>> response to Shuddha¹s 2nd post >>>> >> but received an automated >>> email saying my >>>>>> post had to be reviewed by >> the >>>> moderator.  Since I >>> haven¹t received a >>>>>> response (Monica??!) I >> assume it >>>> was not approved >>> or got lost in the vast >>>>>> belly of the >> Sarai computer! >>>>>> >>>> >>> >> ------------------------------------- >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Shuddha, let us >> take >>> your >>>> arguments and apply them to the other side.  Modi >>>>>> >> belongs to a >>> political >>>> party that was in power and he was at the helm >> when >>>>>> the 2002 >>> Gujarat >>>> carnage took place.  He may not have >> explicitly directed it >>>>>> >>> but he >>>> certainly presided over the >> violence.  What Modi is like as a >>> person, >>>>>> >>>> whether he is gentle, >> cultured, cries at the funeral of his >>> friends or his >>>>>> >>>> rivals are >> of no concern to me  (It is well known that >>> Goebbels was a >>>>>> >>>> >> cultured man and had a refined taste in music and the >>> arts and of >> course >>>>>> >>>> Jinnah ate ham sandwiches). What matters to me is >>> that the >> man presided >>>> over >>>>>> the worst kind of violence and has refused >>> to, >> till date, condemn >>>> it >>>>>> unambiguously.  Instead he and his party >>> >> continue to cite the >>>> economic >>>>>> progress of Muslims in Gujarat to >>> >> counter it.  The subtext of >>>> this‹ and this >>>>>> is a South Asian >> disease‹ >>> is let us forget the past, >>>> galtiyan dono taraf se >>>>>> huin >> hain >>> (³action-reaction²), and let us move on. >>>>  Whether it is the >>>>>> >> various >>> political parties in India who have incited, >>>> controlled and >> presided >>>>>> >>> over the worst communal or sectarian violence from >>>> the >> 1930¹s to the >>> present >>>>>> day, or the Pakistani army role in the mass >>>> >> rapes of >>> Bangladesh or the Sri >>>>>> Lankan army¹s role against Tamil >> civilians, >>>> >>> every political party in these >>>>>> countries seem to be >> inflicted by the >>> same >>>> disease. >>>>>> Having said that, I believe it is >> the role of civil >>> society to be >>>> vigilant, >>>>>> to be rigorous, to not >> succumb to the same >>> logic. >>>>>> >>>>>> I know >>>> that you have been >> critical of fundamentalist >>> politics in this forum >>>>>> and >>>> others, >> whether it is Hindutva or Islamist >>> and that is why it surprised >>>>>> >> me >>>> to read your post on the LTG event. >>>  You say ³You may be right when >> you>>> >>>> say that SAS Geelani may be saying >>> one thing in Delhi and >> another in >>>>>> >>>> Srinagar.  I am not here to judge >>> the sincerity, or >> lack of,  or >>>> ambiguity, >>>>>> of these statements.²  Why >>> are you not >> here to judge the >>>> sincerity or lack >>>>>> thereof of these >>> statements? >>  Surely, one is always >>>> judging political >>>>>> parties when they >>> claim >> one or another thing?  How does >>>> one align oneself >>>>>> politically if >>> >> one goes simply by manifestos and not by >>>> actions?  Judging >>>>>> and >>> >> evaluating is a constant process.  Mamta Bannerjee >>>> may have been >> one >>>>>> >>> thing as a member of the opposition but how will she be >>>> when >> she comes >>> to >>>>>> power?  One reads her statements, one watches >> carefully >>>> her >>> actions >>>>>> following her statements.  If they don¹t >> gel, we believe her >>>> >>> to be >>>>>> insincere. >>>>>> >>>>>> You write: ³I am >> amazed that this recognition >>> is >>>> not getting the space I >>>>>> think it >> deserves, simply as a NEWS story. >>> ³ Do >>>> you remember Atal Behari >>>>>> >> Vajpayee shed tears after the demolition >>> of the >>>> Babri Masjid and >> Advani >>>>>> described it as ³the saddest day of his >>> life.² >>>> Should >> these isolated moments >>>>>> and statements be highlighted and >>> >> privileged >>>> as representing the 2 men¹s >>>>>> position on the Babri Masjid >> or >>> should one >>>> judge them over a longer period >>>>>> of time, weighing >> their >>> statements and >>>> their actions? >>>>>> >>>>>> As for Mr. Geelani and >> evaluating >>> his actions, do you >>>> believe a responsible >>>>>> leader ought >> to lead from >>> the front or give calls to >>>> his followers to engage >>>>>> >> in actions that >>> will cause injury or even death >>>> from the safety of his >> home? >>>>>> Mr. >>> Geelani is fully aware that in any part >>>> of this planet >> if you pelt >>>>>> >>> stones at a man with a gun, there is a fair >>>> chance >> that the man with the >>> gun >>>>>> is going to retaliate.  When he was >>>> >> released from jail he made a >>> fine >>>>>> statement calling for the end of >> the >>>> hartaal calendar, saying >>> that this was >>>>>> not the way forward, >> that these >>>> protests could not be >>> sustained, that life >>>>>> could not >> come to a standstill >>>> (btw, the Sopore >>> fruit mandi, his >>>>>> >> constituency, continued to function >>>> through this >>> entire period >> hartaal >>>>>> calendar or not).  These were wise >>>> words from a >>> man who >> has been in politics >>>>>> for years.  Wise words or the >>>> thinking of >>> >> the ISI, I¹m not sure because the >>>>>> words were echoed by Syed >>>> >>> >> Salahuddin.  What follows is interesting: >>>>>> Salahuddin¹s effigy is >> burnt >>> and >>>> a rumour is floated that Mr. Geelani is >>>>>> selling out to >> Omar >>> Abdullah. >>>>  Does Mr. Geelani stand by his words?  Does he >>>>>> do >> what >>> Gandhi does after >>>> Chauri Chaura?  No, of course not.  He does >> a >>>>>> total >>> U-turn and starts >>>> competing with Masrat Alam on the >> calendars, >>>>>> >>> subjecting the people of the >>>> valley to more misery. >>  What do ordinary >>>>>> >>> Kashmiris feel about the >>>> continuation of this >> absurd form of protest >>> where >>>>>> they and not the >>>> Government of India >> suffer?  You may find the >>> answer in the >>>>>> fact that >>>> there was not a >> single protest when Masrat >>> Alam was arrested. >>>>>> >>>>>> Again >>>> Mr. >> Geelani saying he Œpersonally¹ >>> favours the accession to Pakistan >>>>>> >> but >>>> will Œabide by¹ what the people >>> of J&K want is neither here nor >> there. >>>>>> >>>> What you see as a maturing >>> position may be read as an >> opportunistic one >>>>>> >>>> until such time as it is >>> tested.  As I have >> already shown in my last post >>>>>> >>>> Mr. Geelani, his >>> political party >> and his ideology have since the mid-90¹s >>>>>> >>>> shown no such >>> respectful >> accommodation of the political views of others. >>>>  In >>>>>> fact >>> any >> divergence from this view has been silenced by the bullet. >>>>  If >>> >> this >>>>>> is someone¹s history‹ and as much as I should wish it >> otherwise-- >>>> >>> it is >>>>>> very, very difficult for me to suspend my >> cynicism and turn >>>> >>> enthusiastic >>>>>> cartwheels on the basis of one >> speech to a select audience >>> in >>>> New Delhi. >>>>>> >>>>>> With reference to >> your point about borders:  The >>> GoI >>>> acknowledges that >>>>>> Kashmir is >> an ³issue² between India and >>> Pakistan.  As I >>>> have mentioned in my >>>>>> >> first post, it objects to the >>> word ³dispute² as it >>>> >> internationalizes >>>>>> Kashmir, ignores the Simla >>> Agreement and takes it >> out of >>>> the domain of >>>>>> bilateral talks back to >>> the UN.  If you want >> my personal >>>> opinion on this >>>>>> (and I have argued on >>> this list in >> the past), I agree with >>>> this stand.  I >>>>>> see the UN as a >>> forum >> where, sadly, world powers have >>>> always manipulated >>>>>> nations and >>> it >> certainly does not have the moral >>>> standing after Iraq and >>>>>> >>> >> Afghanistan to really mediate anywhere in the >>>> world.  India and >>> >> Pakistan >>>>>> need to, and can settle the issue taking into >>>> account >> the >>> wishes of all the >>>>>> people of J&K as it stood in 1947.  As I >>>> >> have argued >>> in the past and as >>>>>> Gen.Musharraf recently said on an >> NDTV >>>> interview >>> that India and Pakistan >>>>>> were very close to >> drafting an agreement >>>> based >>> on his 4-point formula. >>>>>> >> Interestingly, various interpretations of >>>> this >>> 4-point formula were >> thrown >>>>>> up by all shades of political parties but >>>> >>> there was a >> broad consensus on >>>>>> this whether from the mainstream groups >>> or >>>> the >> separatists.  The only leader >>>>>> that rejected this was Mr. >>> Geelani >> who >>>> insisted that the Kashmir ³dispute² >>>>>> be solved on the UN >>> >> Resolutions of >>>> 1948! >>>>>> >>>>>> As for borders themselves: what is >> Europe >>> today but a borderless >>>> continent? >>>>>> You critique the idea of >> the >>> nation-state and yet you want to >>>> re-invent the >>>>>> wheel by >> supporting yet >>> another nation-state in independent >>>> Kashmir.  Why, >>>>>> >> when a 21st c. >>> solution in the 4-point formula, similar to >>>> the form >> and >>>>>> content of >>> the EU, could be in the making? >>>>>> >>>>>> Best >>>> >> wishes, >>>>>> >>> Sonia >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 22/10/10 8:10 PM, >> "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" >>>> >>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >> Dear Sonia, (don't worry Pawan, its >>> a >>>> lot less than '3000 >> lines') >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I said - " I do not agree with >>> much of >>>> what >> Geelani Saheb represents >>>>>>> politically, or ideologically, >>> but I >> have >>>> no hesitation in saying that what >>>>>>> he >>>>>>> said yesterday, >>> >> was surprising >>>> for its gentleness, for its consideration, >>>>>>> >> for >>>>>>> >>> its moderation, even >>>> for its liberality and open >> heartedness." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>> What part of this sentence >>>> seems to suggest >> that I am 'aligning' with >>> SAS >>>>>>> Geelani. The 'I do not >>>> agree with >> much' does not seem to indicate >>> alignment, >>>>>>> or endorsement to >>>> me. >> The rest of the statement is a >>> statement of fact. Were >>>>>>> SAS Geelani >> to >>>> have said words that were >>> inflammatory yesterday, I would not >>>>>>> >> have >>>> hesitated to said that he >>> had. Allow me to elaborate by way of >> an >>>>>>> >>>> example >>>>>>> - I have never >>> been in agreement with the >> political philosophy >>>> of >>>>>>> M.K.Gandhi, >>>>>>> >>> but I never make the >> mistake of saying that my >>>> disagreement with Gandhi >>> (my >>>>>>> refusal >> to endorse Gandhian ideology and >>>> what it means >>> politically) >> amounts >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> my failure to recognize >>>> Gandhi's >>> gentleness, >> his consideration, his >>>>>>> moderation, his liberality >>>> and its >>> open >> heartedness. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>  I have been strongly critical Islamist >>>> >>> >> politics, including on this forum, >>>>>>> whenever I have considered it >>>> >>> >> necessary to do so. That is one thing, and it >>>>>>> is >>>>>>> where I >> would >>>> >>> differ from SAS Geelani, explicitly, categorically, unless >> he >>>>>>> makes a >>>> >>> statement, like the Mirwaiz did recently, abjuring an >> 'Islamist >>>>>>> >>>> >>> future >>>>>>> for Kashmir'. But to say that SAS >> Geelani has never expressed >>>> >>> regret for the >>>>>>> violence that rocked >> even the pro-Azadi camp from >>> within >>>> is specious. >>>>>>> Kashmiri >>>>>>> >> polticians of all hues routinely >>> issue >>>> condemnations of incidents >> of >>>>>>> terrorism, and targetted >>> assasinations. >>>> Geelani, to my >> knowledge, has not >>>>>>> been >>>>>>> any >>> exception. Eyewitnesses >>>> speak >> of seeing him weeping at Abdul Ghani >>>>>>> >>> Lone's >>>>>>> funeral. I do >> not >>>> know, nor do I care, whether these tears >>> were genuine. All >>>>>>> >> I >>>>>>> am >>>> saying is that if the man has not said >>> that he celebrates >> the assasins of>>>> >>>> the elder Mirwaiz, or Abdul Ghani >>> Lone, or the >> attacks on Dr. Shameema >>>> that >>>>>>> you mention, then, it is >>> unfair to >> accuse him of 'Not Saying' the >>>> 'not >>>>>>> saying'. He condemns >>> >> assasinations. He does not celebrate the >>>> assasin. This >>>>>>> means that >> he >>> cannot be accused of being the source of the >>>> assasination, >>>>>>> >> unless >>> other concrete evidence is brought to bear upon the >>>> >> case. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>  You >>> may be right when you say that SAS Geelani may be >> saying >>>> one thing in >>>>>>> >>> Delhi and another in Srinagar.  I am not >> here to judge the >>>> sincerity, >>> or >>>>>>> lack >>>>>>> of,  or ambiguity, >> of these statements. I think >>>> >>> politically, the significant >>>>>>> thing >> is that whatever he may have said >>> in >>>> the past, SAS Geelani, HAS >> to >>>>>>> speak >>>>>>> a language today that is >>> not >>>> secterian. He may >> have done so in the past. Let >>>>>>> us remember that >>> he was >>>> an elected >> member of the J&K assembly for more than >>>>>>> one term >>> in the past, >>>> >> and that means he had to swear fealty of some sort to >>>>>>> >>> the Indian >>>> >> constitution. Judging by this, we should be able to evaluate >>> his >>>>>>> >>>> >> 'Islamist' commitments in the light of his sometime loyalty to >>> an >>>> >> apparently >>>>>>> secular constitution. If the sake of argument, we say >>> >> that we >>>> should take >>>>>>> seriously what came 'after' as representing >> the >>> 'maturing' of >>>> his position, >>>>>>> then, if his avowedly >> 'secterian' / >>> Islamist / Pro-Pakistan >>>> phase came after >>>>>>> his phase >> as an MLA of the >>> J&K assembly, then, so too >>>> has this 'current' >>>>>>> >> phase >>>>>>> come >>> 'after' his secterian posturing. I am >>>> not the one who >> needs to split >>>>>>> >>> these hairs, but clearly, if some emphasis >>>> is >> bieng given to chronology as >>> a >>>>>>> way of attributing the man's >> politics >>>> to the man's biography, then >>> let's >>>>>>> stay >>>>>>> >> consistent, and say, that if >>>> the current SAS Geelani >>> is saying things >> that >>>>>>> don't seem to require the >>>> automatic assumption >>> of an Isamic >> state (which is >>>>>>> what we would expect >>>> from the 'old' >>> Geelani, >> then, we have every reason to >>>>>>> take it as >>>> seriously as when >>> he >> made his decision to abandon 'mainstream' >>>>>>> electoral >>>> politics in >>> >> Jammu and Kashmir for the hardline fringe. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Indeed, I >>>> would >> go >>> so far as to say that as far as we are concerned, we >>>>>>> >> should >>>>>>> >>>> >>> assume, and hold him, and his followers, responsible to >> the Œevolution¹>> >>> of >>>>>>> their statements, as they occur. If he goes >> back on the broad, >>>> >>> liberal >>>>>>> nature >>>>>>> of a vision for Azad >> kashmir (which, >>> incidentally, >>>> among other things, >>>>>>> included the >> somewhat whimsical >>> detail of a provision >>>> of compensation for >>>>>>> >> damages were a believing >>> Muslim to damage a bottle of >>>> alchohl of >> a >>>>>>> non-believer), then, we >>> should hold him responsible for that >>>> >> regression. He >>>>>>> made a speech >>> that was refreshingly free of >> Islamist >>>> rhetoric yesterday, >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> >>> spoke in the broad >> terms of 'Insaaniyat' - >>>> Humanity. If Atal Behari >>> Vajpayee >>>>>>> can be >> appreciated, as indeed he should >>>> have been, for >>> speaking in terms >> of >>>>>>> 'Insaaniyat' when it came to thinking >>>> about the >>> solution to >> the question of >>>>>>> Jammu and Kashmir, why could the >>>> >>> mainstream >> media not pick up the fact that >>>>>>> at >>>>>>> least in stated >>> terms, >>>> >> SAS Geelani was making as major a move, by invoking >>>>>>> >>> 'Insaaniyat' >> over >>>> secterian considerations, exactly as Vajpayee had >>> done. >>>>>>> >> Recognizing this >>>> does not require us to align with, or endorse, >>> either >> SAS >>>>>>> Geelani, or >>>> Atal Behari Vajpayee, it simply requires us to >>> >> register a fact >>>>>>> that a >>>> major move is in process. That politics >> is >>> being transformed, even as >>>>>>> we >>>> speak. I am amazed that this >>> >> recognition is being painted as 'alignment, >>>>>>> >>>> or >>>>>>> endorsement'. >> I >>> am amazed that this recognition is not getting the >>>> space I >>>>>>> >> think it >>> deserves, simply as a NEWS story. SAS Geelani says he >>>> wishes >> India >>>>>>> >>> to >>>>>>> be a strong country, a regional power, that he >>>> >> supports (in >>> principle) a >>>>>>> future permanent place for India on the >> United >>>> Natons >>> Security Council, once >>>>>>> Kashmir is liberated   - in >> other words, he >>>> is >>> saying, let us go, and we >>>>>>> will >>>>>>> stand >> with you, dont you think >>>> >>> this is BIG news. That is what I was >> trying >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> talk about. Trying >>> to >>>> talk about does not make >> me a camp follower of SAS >>>>>>> Geelani or any >>> other >>>> politician, in >> India, Kashmir, or elsewhere. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My sense is, >>> the >>>> movement >> for Azadi in Kashmir has gone beyond the persona >>>>>>> >>> of >>>>>>> SAS >>>> >> Geelani, and while he is universally respected for his >>> integrity >> and >>>>>>> >>>> incorruptability, his word is by no means, Œlaw¹. He, >>> and >> other leaders >>>> like >>>>>>> him, are being Œled¹ as much as they are >>> >> Œleading¹ the people they >>>> claim to >>>>>>> represent. Part of this >> process >>> means giving up the secterian >>>> rhetoric that >>>>>>> people in >> Kashmir >>> genuinely feel alienated by. We should >>>> welcome this >>>>>>> >>> >> development. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Now, I come to the views that he >>>> holds >> regarding >>> independence and merger >>>>>>> with >>>>>>> Pakistan. He has >> said, >>>> including >>> in his recent interview with Seema Mustafa >>>>>>> that >> he PERSONALLY >>>> prefers >>> accession to Pakistan, but that he is willing >> to >>>>>>> abide by >>>> whatever >>> the people of Jammu and Kashmir decide. I >> do not think >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> >>>> the >>> people of Jammu and Kashmir have a >> future with Pakistan.So, I >>>> >>> disagree >>>>>>> with SAS Geelani's personal >> view. I strongly argue for a >>>> >>> demilitarized, >>>>>>> independent, secular >> Jammu and Kashmir. That makes me >>>> >>> someone who does not >>>>>>> endorse >> SAS Geelani's position. Let's look at >>> thigns >>>> this way, had this >> been >>>>>>> 1935, I would probably have not been >>> in agreement >>>> with M.K. >> Gandhi's vision >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> what he thought the >>> future of South >>>> >> Asia and India ought to be. But that >>>>>>> does >>>>>>> not >>> mean that I >> would >>>> dismiss Gandhi as irrelevant, or someone to be >>> mocked >>>>>>> and >> reviled. I >>>> would engage with him politicially, as many >>> currents in >> India >>>>>>> at that >>>> time did. They were not uncritical of >>> Gandhi (from >> the left and the >>>>>>> >>>> right) but they knew that Gandhi's >>> voice had a >> certain resonance. I think>>>> >>>> that >>>>>>> the attitude that >>> people >> have towards SAS Geelani is not dissimilar. >>>> They >>>>>>> may >>>>>>> not >>> >> agree with him on many counts, and most Kashmiris that >>>> I know >>> >> personally >>>>>>> would fit that description. But none would want to >>>> >> dismiss >>> or demonize him. >>>>>>> Primarily because of his unwillingness to >> be an >>>> >>> occasional pawn in the hands >>>>>>> of the >> occupation. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>  I have yet >>> to >>>> come across an Indian >> politician who is willing to say, on >>>>>>> >>> the >>>>>>> >>>> record, that he >> PERSONALLY prefers that Jammu and Kashmir stay >>> with >>>> India, >>>>>>> >> but >>>>>>> will respect whatever the people of Jammu and >>> Kashmir >>>> decide >> in a free and >>>>>>> fair plebiscite. If that were to be the >>> case, then >>>> >> we would get much further >>>>>>> than where we are today in >>> Kashmir. I have >> no >>>> quarrel with those who want >>>>>>> Kashmir to stay in >>> India. Theirs >> is a point >>>> of view. It needs to be freely >>>>>>> heard, freely >>> debated, >> and if is >>>> convincing to the people of Jammu and >>>>>>> Kashmir, >>> best of >> luck to those who >>>> carry the day. What I am against is >>>>>>> >>> >> maintaining Jammu and Kashmir as >>>> parts of the Indian Union by force. >>> >> By >>>>>>> violence. By occupation. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>> Finally, I come to the >> five >>> points, and whether or not, sticking to the >>>>>>> >>>> point >>>>>>> >> about Kashmir >>> being disputed is an obstacle. Lets face facts. >>>> Kashmir >> is a >>>>>>> dispute. >>> Every single map of the world that is not printed >>>> >> in India shows >>>>>>> >>> it, >>>>>>> visually, as a disputed territory. That is >> why >>>> the Government of >>> India has >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> put its silly ink >> stamp on atlases. >>>> That is why >>> there is a United Nations >>>>>>> Observer >> group in Delhi, Islamabad >>>> and >>> Srinagar. United Nations observers >>>>>>> >> are >>>>>>> present, in the same >>> way, >>>> in say Cyprus (another dispute) >> Israel / >>>>>>> Palestine, >>>>>>> >>> another dispute. >>>> What is the big deal >> in saying, yes, it is a dispute. >>> Will >>>>>>> India >>>> disappear if the >> public secret is admitted to? As far as I >>> am >>>>>>> >>>> concerned >>>>>>> >> borders, and sovereignty, are less important than >>> the lives of >>>> people. >> If >>>>>>> discussing a border, and what it means, can >>> be a method to >>>> >> save lives, then >>>>>>> refusing to do so, is a crime. The >>> Government of >> India >>>> can offer to >>>>>>> 'discuss' >>>>>>> - sovereignty over >>> those >> areas of the >>>> India-Tibet border that were taken by >>>>>>> force >>> majeure >> by British Imperial >>>> power, but it will sacrifice the lives of >>>>>>> >>> >> hundreds of thousands of people >>>> in order to keep the fetish of the >>> >> Indian >>>>>>> Union's  soveriegnty and >>>> integrity alive in the case of >> Jammu >>> and Kashmir. >>>>>>> This policy seems to me >>>> to be totally >> criminal and >>> misguided. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Borders are made by human >>>> beings, >> and can be changed >>> by human beings. The >>>>>>> geographical expression >>>> >> of the Union of India is >>> not divinely ordained. >>>>>>> Sensible people all >> over >>>> the world, understand >>> that maps can change, and >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> >> they do change. >>>> We hope that the >>> map of China can someday be drawn >> in >>>>>>> Chinese >>>>>>> school >>>> text books >>> without engulfing Tibet. If >> that can be a reasonable >>>>>>> >>>> desire, >>>>>>> >>> and not be seen as an >> 'obstruction', why should a similar desire >>>> be seen >>> as >>>>>>> an >>>>>>> >> obstruction in the case of India and Jammu and >>>> Kashmir. >>> Arnab >> Goswami >>>>>>> repeatedly used the word 'splittist' yestyerday to >>>> >>> refer >> to all those who >>>>>>> were >>>>>>> speaking at the meeting at the LTG >>>> >>> >> yesterday. A word that is used by the >>>>>>> Chinese government and the >>> >> Chinese >>>> Communist Party whenever it refers to the >>>>>>> Dalai Lama and >> the >>> movement for >>>> a free Tibet. Are we (our government, >>>>>>> >> sections >>>>>>> of >>> our media) aping >>>> the Chinese government and the >> behemoth of the >>> Chinese >>>>>>> Communist Party in >>>> aligning and >> endorsing ourselves with the >>> fetish of a man >>>>>>> made fiction of >>>> >> sovereignty. I should hope that we >>> can do better than that. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >> best >>>> regards, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>> >> Shuddha >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>> >> _________________________________________ >>>>>> reader-list: an open >>> >> discussion >>>> list on media and the city. >>>>>> Critiques & >> Collaborations >>>>>> >>> To subscribe: >>>> send an email to >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe >>>>>> in the >>>> subject >> header. >>>>>> To unsubscribe: >>>> >>> >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>>> List archive: >>>> >>> >> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >> >>> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >>>>>> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >>>>>> Raqs >> Media >>>> >>> Collective >>>>>> shuddha at sarai.net >>>>>> >> www.sarai.net >>>>>> >>>> >>> >> www.raqsmediacollective.net >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open >>> >> discussion >>>> list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> >> To >>> subscribe: send >>>> an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in >>> the subject >>>> header. >>>> To unsubscribe: >>>> >>> >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: >>>> >>> >> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >>> >> ___________________________ >>>> ______________ >>> reader-list: an open >>> >> discussion list on media and the >>>> city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> >> To >>> subscribe: send an email to >>>> reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in >>> the subject header. >>> To >>>> unsubscribe: >>> >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: >>>> >>> >> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >>> >>> >> >> _____________________ >>> ____________________ >> reader-list: an open >> discussion list on media and the >>> city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To >> subscribe: send an email to >>> reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in >> the subject header. >> To >>> unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: >>> >> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> > _____________________ >> ____________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the >> city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To >> unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: >> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > From tapasrayx at gmail.com Tue Oct 26 17:12:08 2010 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray [Gmail]) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 17:12:08 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?iso-8859-1?q?Azadi=3A_The_Only_Way_=AD_Report_fro?= =?iso-8859-1?q?m_a_Turbulent_Few_Hours_in_Delhi?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ARB, It is true that in a conversation, what one participant says is influenced by what s/he knows about the other's identity, but that is not necessarily disingenuous. Don't we - unconsciously most of the time but sometimes also consciously - interprete what others say in light of what we know about their identities? Naturally, our responses are also influenced by that knowledge. So, in a situation where A knows who/what B is but B doesn't know who/what A is, the conversation is hobbled by a kind of power imbalance - the last thing one needs in rational discourse. My two-bit. Tapas On 26 October 2010 16:32, Aditya Raj Baul wrote: > My name is Aditya Raj Baul. Just because I'm not famous like you, you > can allege that my real name is something else. This is offensive, to > say the least. > > Your pre-condition for dialogue with me proves my charge. If my "real" > identity matters to thsi conversation, as you claim it does, then it > means your response would depend on who I am. You would say one thing > if I were Praveen Swami, another if I were Dileep Padgaonkar, a third > if I were the India editor of The India, Australia, something > completely different if I were Masarat Alam, something more nuanced if > I were Yasin Malik, something more aggressive if I were SAS Geelani. > > You accuse me of not being Aditya Raj Baul. Yet it is you who's afraid > of being Sonia Jabbar. > > For all you know, may be I'm you. > > I asked you: > > "I like it how Sonia Jabbar wants to hold Kashmir hostage to history - > to the histories of India and Pakistan, to the history of what Geelani > has or has not done, has or has not said. She does not think history > is irrelevant to today's people who want azadi today in today's > context - sorry, she says, India has signed the Simla agreement, and > Geelani is a fanatic. Thank you. Fair enough, I suppose. But will she > apply the same rigours of historical understanding to the Indian state > and its actions in Kashmir? Please?" > > I would be happy to clarify my question, if only you'd ask me what > about it you don't understand. But all you want to do is be > condescending, suspicious and irritable. > > Thanks but not thanks, > Aditya Raj Baul > > > On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 4:22 PM, SJabbar wrote: >> Sorry, didn't mean to be.  Was just poking mild fun at your assumed name. >> I'd be very happy to have a serious conversation with you any time, but it >> would be nice if I knew whom I was addressing.  I'm really not interested in >> scoring debating points and this is what has been happening in this forum >> particularly with people with false identities. >> Sincerely, >> Sonia >> >> >> On 26/10/10 4:15 PM, "Aditya Raj Baul" wrote: >> >>> You can be as contemptuous as you want. Doesn't take away from your >>> hypocrisy >> >> On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 4:10 PM, SJabbar >>> wrote: >>> Oh whenever you want, dear boy, since you believe in making >>> history. >>> Atilla D. Hun >>> >>> >>> On 26/10/10 4:01 PM, "Aditya Raj Baul" >>> wrote: >>> >>>> My question is: when will you make Rahul >>> PM? >>> >>> On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 3:58 PM, >>>> SJabbar >>> wrote: >>>> Aditya Raj Baul, >>>> What exactly is >>>> your question? >>>> >>> Sincerely, >>>> Sonia Gandhi >>>> >>>> >>>> On 26/10/10 2:04 PM, "Aditya >>>> Raj Baul" >>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I like it how Sonia Jabbar >>>> wants to >>> hold Kashmir hostage to history - >>>> to the >>>>> histories of India and >>>> >>> Pakistan, to the history of what Geelani >>>> has or has not >>>>> done, has or >>> has >>>> not said. She does not think history >>>> is irrelevant to today's >>>>> >>> people who >>>> want azadi today in today's >>>> context - sorry, she says, India >>> has >>>>> signed >>>> the Simla agreement, and >>>> Geelani is a fanatic. Thank you. >>> Fair enough, >>>>> I >>>> suppose. But will she >>>> apply the same rigours of >>> historical understanding >>>> to >>>>> the Indian state >>>> and its actions in >>> Kashmir? Please? >>>> >>>> On Mon, Oct >>>> 25, 2010 at >>>>> 9:53 AM, SJabbar >>> wrote: >>>>> Dear >>>> Shuddha, >>>>> >>>>> I think >>>>> our >>> differences have narrowed considerably as you >>>> continue to >>>>> clarify >>> your >>>>> position.  Reading between your lines, you seem >>>> to think that >>> I >>>>> have a >>>>> problem with your engaging with Mr. Geelani or >>>> that the >>> problem was >>>>> your >>>>> sharing a stage with him. I do not not.  In >>>> >>> politics there are no >>>>> pariahs. >>>>>  If someone represents a >>> constituency-- >>>> no matter how marginal-- >>>>> that is >>>>> part of the social >>> fabric you cannot >>>> ignore it.  It may surprise you >>>>> and >>>>>  many on this >>> list to know that Mr. >>>> Geelani and I have known each other >>>>> >>>>> since >>> 1997 and have extremely frank >>>> and cordial relations. My problem was> >>>>> >>> with the language of your report of >>>> the meeting where your >>> enthusiasm >>>>> >>>>> (“tallest separatist leader,” he is >>>> “NOT against >>> dialogue,” “all that they >>>>> >>>>> are asking for is the Right to >>>> >>> self-determination”) masked a political >>>>> >>>>> reality that was far more >>>> >>> complex and brutal.  However, you have since >>>>> >>>>> clarified that you do >>> not >>>> endorse Mr. Geelani’s  politics and you concede >>>>> >>>>> that he may >>> well have >>>> been playing to audiences in Delhi,  bringing us more >>>>> >>>>> or >>> less on the >>>> same page except that past experience has made me less >>> likely >>>>> >>>>> to share >>>> your belief that someone like Mr. Geelani can be >>> “USED” or that you >>>>> >>>>> can >>>>  “compel them to come to a degree of >>> moderation in action, and a >>>>> >>>>> >>>> greater, more imaginative radicalism in >>> terms of conceptions.” >>>>> >>>>> I am >>>> glad >>>>> you agree that people and >>> groups, state and non-state actors who >>>>> >>>> have >>>>> committed crimes must >>> stand trial and justice must be done, whether >>>> it >>>>> is >>>>> SAS Geelani, >>> Yasin Malik, Syed Salahuddin or various army generals >>>> who >>>>> have >>>>> >>> presided over rights abuses while they served in J&K. I have in >>>> this >>>>> >>> forum >>>>> written of a Truth & Reconciliation Commission modeled on the >>>> >>> South >>>>> African >>>>> experience that should follow the final settlement on >>>> >>> J&K. >>>>> >>>>> I am also glad >>>>> that you agree with my point of the futility >>> of >>>> creating a >>>>> new nation-state >>>>> in the form of an independent >>> Kashmir ( “I >>>> am not for the >>>>> moment saying and >>>>> have never said that >>> an independent >>>> Kashmir will be in any >>>>> way a qualitative >>>>> improvement >>> (in terms of a >>>> state form) than an occupied >>>>> Kashmir,”).  But you >>>>> >>> seem to believe that >>>> it is necessary because “ It may >>>>> at least lead to >>> the >>>>> withdrawal of the >>>> reality of a brutal occupation.” By >>>>> this I >>> assume your >>>>> vision of regime >>>> change means replacing one democratic >>>>> >>> republic with another >>>>> democratic >>>> republic and not an Islamic republic >>> or a >>>>> military state.  In >>>>> which case >>>> “the reality of a brutal >>> occupation” must >>>>> mean the withdrawal of >>>>> >>>> hundreds of thousands of >>> uniformed men in J&K.  But >>>>> do you really need >>>> to >>>>> create a new >>> nation-state in order to demilitarize >>>>> Kashmir? >>>>> >>>>> >>>> From 1947 to >>>>> >>> 1989 India’s military presence was restricted to the >>>> borders >>>>> and to the >>> few >>>>> garrisons of Srinagar, Baramulla, Leh, Udhampur >>>> and Poonch. >>>>> >>> Between 1989- >>>>> 1992 India was being seriously challenged on >>>> the >>> military >>>>> front by thousands >>>>> of Kashmiri militants and Islamist >>>> >>> mujahideen.  The troop >>>>> surge only >>>>> happened only around 1992-93 and >>> the >>>> Indian military was only >>>>> able to >>>>> control the situation around >>> 1995. In >>>> 1996 the situation was such >>>>> that it >>>>> was the first time in >>> 6 years it was >>>> possible to hold elections and >>>>> yet then >>>>> as in 2002 >>> there were hundreds >>>> of assassinations of political >>>>> candidates and >>>>> >>> ordinary workers of >>>> political parties (the right to >>>>> self-determination >>> is >>>>> never extended to >>>> this group). >>>>> >>>>> Anyway, my point is that >>> 500,000 or 700,000 >>>>> troops were >>>> not there as a >>>>> permanent fixture >>> since 1947 and the ‘most >>>>> militarized >>>> place in the world’ >>>>> was not >>> always so.  It is both desirable and >>>>> >>>> possible to withdraw troops >>> and >>>>> it should be done in a phased manner. >>>>> >>>>  Though I have been vocal >>> in >>>>> advocating this since 2001, sadly, I believe >>>> it >>>>> will be linked >>> to the final >>>>> settlement and will not happen before >>>> because of >>>>> the >>> many sleeper cells of >>>>> militants that get activated the >>>> moment there >>> is >>>>> peace or at least as they >>>>> say ‘normalcy’— as we have >>>> seen in >>> last week’s >>>>> encounter between troops and >>>>> the JeM in Srinagar. >>>>  BTW >>> Srinagar district was >>>>> one of the districts being >>>>> examined for the >>>> >>> revocation of the Disturbed >>>>> Areas Act.  This encounter will >>>>> make it >>>> >>> extremely difficult for the state >>>>> government to do so. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>  I am >>> glad >>>> you agree with me that the 4-point >>>>> formula can be a solution >>> to >>>>> the >>>> vexed Kashmir issue, however your reading >>>>> of what went wrong >>> and putting >>>>> >>>> the onus of the failure of implementation >>>>> squarely on >>> New Delhi’s >>>> shoulder >>>>> is wrong.  Yes, there were delays on New >>>>> >>> Delhi’s side, but >>>> those were not >>>>> remarkable considering a political >>>>> >>> consensus had to be >>>> built within the >>>>> country (I think it was in 2008 >>> during >>>>> the Amarnath >>>> Yatra that I explained >>>>> the entire process at >>> length in this >>>>> forum). >>>>  Very simply what happened was >>>>> that the >>> Lawyer’s Movement in >>>>> Pakistan >>>> overtook the Kashmir process and once >>>>> >>> Mushrraf was ousted and >>>>> Benazir >>>> was assassinated the country plunged >>> into >>>>> political turmoil and the >>>>> >>>> Zaradari government was too weak to >>> break from >>>>> Pakistan’s traditional >>>> stand >>>>> of the UN Resolutions. >>>  Both Gen Kayani and the >>>>> ISI were not >>>> comfortable >>>>> with Musharraf’s >>> radical departure from tradition. >>>>> Both >>>> believe Pakistan’s >>>>> best >>> interests are served by keeping the Kashmir pot >>>>> >>>> boiling, >>> maintaining >>>>> India as ‘enemy no 1’, encouraging extremism in >>>>> >>>> >>> Afghanistan to maintain >>>>> ‘strategic depth,’ and to scuttle any >>> influence >>>>> >>>> India may wield in >>>>> Afghanistan.  So, as much as I and >>> many others would >>>> like >>>>> to see the 4-point >>>>> formula being at least >>> discussed, under the >>>> present >>>>> Pakistani dispensation >>>>> it is highly >>> unlikely. >>>>> >>>>> When you >>>> advocate a plebiscite and you believe that >>>>> >>> the azadi movement must >>>>> be >>>> peaceful then you must also accommodate >>> the >>>>> possibility of a partitioned >>>>> >>>> J&K, where large sections of Jammu >>> and all of >>>>> Ladakh would not vote for >>>>> >>>> Pakistan (and under what UN >>> Resolution would the >>>>> option of independence >>>> be >>>>> granted since NO UN >>> Resolution holds that option >>>>> and no Kashmiri to >>>> date has >>>>> appealed >>> to the UN to pass a resolution to >>>>> include the option?) >>>> And how >>>>> >>> would you persuade Pakistan to allow a >>>>> plebiscite in areas under >>>> >>> their >>>>> control?  And what is your opinion of the >>>>> vast region of >>>> >>> Gilgit-Baltistan >>>>> that by Pakistani law has been severed from >>>>> the >>> state >>>> of Jammu & Kashmir and >>>>> where its citizens have NO fundamental >>>>> >>> rights as >>>> its constitutional status >>>>> has not as yet been >>> determined? >>>>> >>>>> I am >>>>> >>>> asking these questions not to score points but >>> for us to locate what is >>>>> >>>>> >>>> moral or desirable within what is real and >>> possible not just for >>>> Kashmiris >>>>> >>>>> who are but a small part of the >>> state, but of all the people >>>> of Jammu & >>>>> >>>>> Kashmir. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>> Sonia >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> My question is, what do we >>> do >>>>> next. I think that this means that the >>>> people >>>>>> 'learn' to USE >>> them, to >>>>> compel them to come to a degree of >>>> moderation in >>>>>> action, >>> and a greater, >>>>> more imaginative radicalism in >>>> terms of >>> conceptions. >>>>>> That is why, the >>>>> current situation in Kashmir, >>>> where >>> the 'Leaders' are being >>>>>> 'Led' by people >>>>> is interesting to me. I >>>> >>> find it POSITIVE that they have to do >>>>>> flip-flops so >>>>> often, from >>>> >>> Hartal-to-No Hartal- to Hartal again. This shows >>>>>> that they are >>>>> NOT >>>> >>> running the street. Things are unpredictable. The change in >>>>>> the >>>>> >>>> >>> 'temperature' of SAS Geelani's statements may be as much due to the >>>> >>> fact >>>>>> >>>>> that he is no longer in a position to call all the shots. >>>> >>> Therefore, he has >>>>>> >>>>> less to lose by 'changing' his tenor. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>> There >>>> is a way in which the >>>>> language of politics has changed, and it >>> has >>>>>> >>>> changed because of the way in >>>>> which people are communicating >>> on all sorts >>>> of >>>>>> fora. Though they may, out >>>>> of affection, still say >>> that only Geelani >>>> will do >>>>>> the Tarjumani, the truth >>>>> is, everyone is >>> doing their own >>>> Tarjumani now. and >>>>>> that is the hardest nut >>>>> for the >>> Government of India >>>> to crack. As an anarchist, >>>>>> I find this >>>>> >>> situation, of the actual, >>>> concrete, refusal of 'representational >>>>>> forms >>> of >>>>> politics' . however >>>> ephemeral it might be at present, quite >>>>>> >>> delightful. SO >>>>> much so, that a >>>> 'theatre' of leadership continues, >>> but >>>>>> actuality presumes a >>>>> totally >>>> different language of >>> politics. >>>>>> >>>>>> I find this a fertile situation, >>>>> >>>> one latent with >>> possibilities, for everyone. >>>>>> >>>>>> As for your other >>>> point, >>>>> about >>> how close we all were to the beginnings of the >>>>>> long road >>>> towards a >>>>> >>> solution with Musharraf's four point formula - I agree >>>>>> with >>>> you. But, >>> then, >>>>> it was the Government of India that scuttled that >>>>>> >>>> >>> possibility. If the >>>>> government of India had acted then, on what was on >>>> >>> offer, >>>>>> perhaps things >>>>> would not have come to the situation where >>> they >>>> are at present. >>>>>> Too much >>>>> has gone wrong since then. I am not >>> a >>>> nationalist of any sort, and to >>>>>> me, >>>>> ALL nation states, and all >>> nation >>>> states in waiting,  are ultimately the>> >>>>> actors of the tragedies >>> of their >>>> own making and choosing, >>>>>> So, basically, I >>>>> am not for the >>> moment saying >>>> and have never said that an >>>>>> independent >>>>> Kashmir will >>> be in any way a >>>> qualitative improvement (in terms of >>>>>> a state >>>>> form) >>> than an occupied >>>> Kashmir, but, It may at least lead to the >>>>>> >>> withdrawal >>>>> of the reality of >>>> a brutal occupation. >>>>>> >>>>>> For me, >>> whatever makes that >>>>> possible, I am >>>> prepared to accept. There were, >>> and >>>>>> remain many >>>>> possibilities that span >>>> the spectrum from where >>> the situation is >>>>>> at present >>>>> to Indpendence or >>>> accession to >>> Pakistan. But thinking about those >>>>>> >>>>> possibilities require >>>> all >>> Indians to stop thinking only out of the Indian>> >>>>> nationalist box. You >>>> >>> know very well, that many different kinds of >>>>> arrangement >>>>>> could >>> have >>>> been explored. including maximum autonomy under the >>>>> aegis of >>> a >>>>>> joint >>>> India-Pakistan guarantee, which is what I understand the >>>>> >>> Musharraf >>>>>> >>>> formula to have been, But the bottom line is, whatever is >>> worked >>>>> out has to >>>> be >>>>>> acceptable to the popular will, hence a >>> plebiscite with many >>>>> options >>>> on offer, >>>>>> and the freedom to campaign >>> for the many options in an >>>>> >>>> atomsphere free of >>>>>> coercion. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>> Realistically speaking, I do not >>>> think >>>>> that the Government of India has >>> the >>>>>> imagination any longer to >>>> try and >>>>> think out of the box. If it >>> can, that would >>>>>> be great. But, >>>> going by the >>>>> ostrich like attitude >>> of the Government in the >>>>>> face of the >>>> obvious >>>>> alienation of the >>> Kashmiri people, I very much doubt it. >>>>>> If >>>> they had that >>>>> >>> intelligence, they could have stopped the killings by the >>>>>> >>>> security >>> forces a >>>>> long time ago. >>>>>> >>>>>> Therefore, the only remaining >>>> >>> possibility for ending the >>>>> occupation seems to >>>>>> me to be >>> independence >>>> for Kashmir, in the short term, >>>>> under the >>> custodianship >>>>>> of the United >>>> Nations, like happened in Kosovo.Of >>>>> >>> course, I strongly assert >>>>>> that the >>>> political road to this must be >>> through >>>>> non-violent means, through >>>>>> mass >>>> political participation, >>> of as many >>>>> different sections of the >>>> population >>>>>> as possible. It >>> will be painful, for >>>>> many Indians to accept, >>>> but in the long >>>>>> term, >>> and in the absence of any >>>>> other imaginative >>>> solutions thought through >>> by >>>>>> the Indian political elites >>>>> (that chance >>>> has come, and sadly, >>> gone) it will be >>>>>> in the best interests of >>>>> the >>>> people of India. Of >>> course, the challenge for the >>>>>> people of Kashmir >>>>> >>>> would be to think >>> through a vision of independence that does >>>>>> not have >>>> them >>>>> switch >>> slavery to Indian occupation to slavery to the Pakistani >>>>>> >>>> >>> militarist >>>>> elite. The challenge would be to come up with proposals for >>>> >>> a >>>>>> >>>>> demilitarized, non-aggressive Kashmir that can preserve its >>> cultural >>>> and >>>>>> >>>>> social openness and liberality, that can take back >>> displaced >>>> minorities, >>>>> and >>>>>> can offer them genuine, not token safety >>> and security. >>>> That is the hard >>>>> work >>>>>> that imaginative politics will >>> have to undertake >>>> in Kashmir. And we >>>>> should >>>>>> never stop expecting >>> and demanding that from >>>> all our Kashmiri >>>>> friends. I >>>>>> never, ever >>> cease doing so. >>>>>> >>>>>>  In the >>>> long term, this fact, >>>>> an Independent >>> Kashmir, could actually be the >>>>>> >>>> cornerstone of a broad South >>>>> Asian >>> Union (modelled on the EU) which >>>> could >>>>>> bring the different >>>>> >>> nationalities (there may be many by then) of >>>> South Asia >>>>>> under an >>>>> >>> arrangement of a free trade zone, a visa free zone, >>>> a customs and >>>>>> >>> tarrifs >>>>> union, a charter on shared ecological concerns, >>>> and >>> comprehensive >>>>>> >>>>> demilitarization. An independent Kashmir may be the >>>> >>> first step in that >>>>>> >>>>> direction. Of course this need not happen. >>> Things >>>> could get worse if >>>>> Kashmir >>>>>> separates. I am well aware and >>> cognizant of >>>> that possibility. But, >>>>> at least, >>>>>> once the dust and >>> din settles, in our >>>> lifetime, there is a >>>>> likelihood that >>>>>> once >>> everyone has climbed off >>>> their nationalist high >>>>> horses, things might >>> be >>>>>> worked out, amicably and >>>> reasonably between all the >>>>> stake >>> holders of a future >>>>>> free association >>>> of South Asian States and >>>>> >>> Territories. That, I think is the >>>>>> only >>>> guarantee for peace in our >>> region. I >>>>> know for certain that an India and >>>>>> >>>> Pakistan that >>> continue to hold on to >>>>> their respective fragments of Jammu >>>> and >>>>>> >>> Kashmir, and an India that enforces >>>>> that occupation by military >>>> force >>> cannot >>>>>> contribute to peace in the >>>>> region. >>>>>> >>>>>> That is why, I >>>> >>> think that freedom for Kashmir, and also, >>>>> incidentally for >>>>>> Tibet, >>> is >>>> key to long term peace and stability in Asia, >>>>> because both >>> these >>>>>> >>>> developments would reduce the necessity of the big >>>>> poweres >>> of tomorrow - >>>> China >>>>>> and India and to a lesser extent - Pakistan >>>>> >>> from being aggressive >>>> nuclear >>>>>> powered rivals, and would perhaps, >>> perhaps, >>>>> open out the true >>>> possibility of >>>>>> what a worthwhile Asian >>> Century really >>>>> ought to be like. >>>> Otherwise, I am >>>>>> afraid that we >>> will replay the disasters >>>>> of the >>>> European history of the >>>>>> Twentieth >>> Century, from the First World War >>>>> >>>> onwards, on the soil of Twenty >>>>>> >>> First Century Asia. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I hope i >>>> have >>>>> made myself >>> clear >>>>>> >>>>>> best, >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>> Shuddha >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On >>>>> 23-Oct-10, at 7:45 PM, >>> SJabbar >>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Sorry for cross-posting but I >>>>> sent this >>> message out in the >>>> morning as a >>>>>>> response to Shuddha¹s 2nd post >>>>> >>> but received an automated >>>> email saying my >>>>>>> post had to be reviewed by >>> the >>>>> moderator.  Since I >>>> haven¹t received a >>>>>>> response (Monica??!) I >>> assume it >>>>> was not approved >>>> or got lost in the vast >>>>>>> belly of the >>> Sarai computer! >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> ------------------------------------- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Shuddha, let us >>> take >>>> your >>>>> arguments and apply them to the other side.  Modi >>>>>>> >>> belongs to a >>>> political >>>>> party that was in power and he was at the helm >>> when >>>>>>> the 2002 >>>> Gujarat >>>>> carnage took place.  He may not have >>> explicitly directed it >>>>>>> >>>> but he >>>>> certainly presided over the >>> violence.  What Modi is like as a >>>> person, >>>>>>> >>>>> whether he is gentle, >>> cultured, cries at the funeral of his >>>> friends or his >>>>>>> >>>>> rivals are >>> of no concern to me  (It is well known that >>>> Goebbels was a >>>>>>> >>>>> >>> cultured man and had a refined taste in music and the >>>> arts and of >>> course >>>>>>> >>>>> Jinnah ate ham sandwiches). What matters to me is >>>> that the >>> man presided >>>>> over >>>>>>> the worst kind of violence and has refused >>>> to, >>> till date, condemn >>>>> it >>>>>>> unambiguously.  Instead he and his party >>>> >>> continue to cite the >>>>> economic >>>>>>> progress of Muslims in Gujarat to >>>> >>> counter it.  The subtext of >>>>> this‹ and this >>>>>>> is a South Asian >>> disease‹ >>>> is let us forget the past, >>>>> galtiyan dono taraf se >>>>>>> huin >>> hain >>>> (³action-reaction²), and let us move on. >>>>>  Whether it is the >>>>>>> >>> various >>>> political parties in India who have incited, >>>>> controlled and >>> presided >>>>>>> >>>> over the worst communal or sectarian violence from >>>>> the >>> 1930¹s to the >>>> present >>>>>>> day, or the Pakistani army role in the mass >>>>> >>> rapes of >>>> Bangladesh or the Sri >>>>>>> Lankan army¹s role against Tamil >>> civilians, >>>>> >>>> every political party in these >>>>>>> countries seem to be >>> inflicted by the >>>> same >>>>> disease. >>>>>>> Having said that, I believe it is >>> the role of civil >>>> society to be >>>>> vigilant, >>>>>>> to be rigorous, to not >>> succumb to the same >>>> logic. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I know >>>>> that you have been >>> critical of fundamentalist >>>> politics in this forum >>>>>>> and >>>>> others, >>> whether it is Hindutva or Islamist >>>> and that is why it surprised >>>>>>> >>> me >>>>> to read your post on the LTG event. >>>>  You say ³You may be right when >>> you>>> >>>>> say that SAS Geelani may be saying >>>> one thing in Delhi and >>> another in >>>>>>> >>>>> Srinagar.  I am not here to judge >>>> the sincerity, or >>> lack of,  or >>>>> ambiguity, >>>>>>> of these statements.²  Why >>>> are you not >>> here to judge the >>>>> sincerity or lack >>>>>>> thereof of these >>>> statements? >>>  Surely, one is always >>>>> judging political >>>>>>> parties when they >>>> claim >>> one or another thing?  How does >>>>> one align oneself >>>>>>> politically if >>>> >>> one goes simply by manifestos and not by >>>>> actions?  Judging >>>>>>> and >>>> >>> evaluating is a constant process.  Mamta Bannerjee >>>>> may have been >>> one >>>>>>> >>>> thing as a member of the opposition but how will she be >>>>> when >>> she comes >>>> to >>>>>>> power?  One reads her statements, one watches >>> carefully >>>>> her >>>> actions >>>>>>> following her statements.  If they don¹t >>> gel, we believe her >>>>> >>>> to be >>>>>>> insincere. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You write: ³I am >>> amazed that this recognition >>>> is >>>>> not getting the space I >>>>>>> think it >>> deserves, simply as a NEWS story. >>>> ³ Do >>>>> you remember Atal Behari >>>>>>> >>> Vajpayee shed tears after the demolition >>>> of the >>>>> Babri Masjid and >>> Advani >>>>>>> described it as ³the saddest day of his >>>> life.² >>>>> Should >>> these isolated moments >>>>>>> and statements be highlighted and >>>> >>> privileged >>>>> as representing the 2 men¹s >>>>>>> position on the Babri Masjid >>> or >>>> should one >>>>> judge them over a longer period >>>>>>> of time, weighing >>> their >>>> statements and >>>>> their actions? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As for Mr. Geelani and >>> evaluating >>>> his actions, do you >>>>> believe a responsible >>>>>>> leader ought >>> to lead from >>>> the front or give calls to >>>>> his followers to engage >>>>>>> >>> in actions that >>>> will cause injury or even death >>>>> from the safety of his >>> home? >>>>>>> Mr. >>>> Geelani is fully aware that in any part >>>>> of this planet >>> if you pelt >>>>>>> >>>> stones at a man with a gun, there is a fair >>>>> chance >>> that the man with the >>>> gun >>>>>>> is going to retaliate.  When he was >>>>> >>> released from jail he made a >>>> fine >>>>>>> statement calling for the end of >>> the >>>>> hartaal calendar, saying >>>> that this was >>>>>>> not the way forward, >>> that these >>>>> protests could not be >>>> sustained, that life >>>>>>> could not >>> come to a standstill >>>>> (btw, the Sopore >>>> fruit mandi, his >>>>>>> >>> constituency, continued to function >>>>> through this >>>> entire period >>> hartaal >>>>>>> calendar or not).  These were wise >>>>> words from a >>>> man who >>> has been in politics >>>>>>> for years.  Wise words or the >>>>> thinking of >>>> >>> the ISI, I¹m not sure because the >>>>>>> words were echoed by Syed >>>>> >>>> >>> Salahuddin.  What follows is interesting: >>>>>>> Salahuddin¹s effigy is >>> burnt >>>> and >>>>> a rumour is floated that Mr. Geelani is >>>>>>> selling out to >>> Omar >>>> Abdullah. >>>>>  Does Mr. Geelani stand by his words?  Does he >>>>>>> do >>> what >>>> Gandhi does after >>>>> Chauri Chaura?  No, of course not.  He does >>> a >>>>>>> total >>>> U-turn and starts >>>>> competing with Masrat Alam on the >>> calendars, >>>>>>> >>>> subjecting the people of the >>>>> valley to more misery. >>>  What do ordinary >>>>>>> >>>> Kashmiris feel about the >>>>> continuation of this >>> absurd form of protest >>>> where >>>>>>> they and not the >>>>> Government of India >>> suffer?  You may find the >>>> answer in the >>>>>>> fact that >>>>> there was not a >>> single protest when Masrat >>>> Alam was arrested. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Again >>>>> Mr. >>> Geelani saying he Œpersonally¹ >>>> favours the accession to Pakistan >>>>>>> >>> but >>>>> will Œabide by¹ what the people >>>> of J&K want is neither here nor >>> there. >>>>>>> >>>>> What you see as a maturing >>>> position may be read as an >>> opportunistic one >>>>>>> >>>>> until such time as it is >>>> tested.  As I have >>> already shown in my last post >>>>>>> >>>>> Mr. Geelani, his >>>> political party >>> and his ideology have since the mid-90¹s >>>>>>> >>>>> shown no such >>>> respectful >>> accommodation of the political views of others. >>>>>  In >>>>>>> fact >>>> any >>> divergence from this view has been silenced by the bullet. >>>>>  If >>>> >>> this >>>>>>> is someone¹s history‹ and as much as I should wish it >>> otherwise-- >>>>> >>>> it is >>>>>>> very, very difficult for me to suspend my >>> cynicism and turn >>>>> >>>> enthusiastic >>>>>>> cartwheels on the basis of one >>> speech to a select audience >>>> in >>>>> New Delhi. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> With reference to >>> your point about borders:  The >>>> GoI >>>>> acknowledges that >>>>>>> Kashmir is >>> an ³issue² between India and >>>> Pakistan.  As I >>>>> have mentioned in my >>>>>>> >>> first post, it objects to the >>>> word ³dispute² as it >>>>> >>> internationalizes >>>>>>> Kashmir, ignores the Simla >>>> Agreement and takes it >>> out of >>>>> the domain of >>>>>>> bilateral talks back to >>>> the UN.  If you want >>> my personal >>>>> opinion on this >>>>>>> (and I have argued on >>>> this list in >>> the past), I agree with >>>>> this stand.  I >>>>>>> see the UN as a >>>> forum >>> where, sadly, world powers have >>>>> always manipulated >>>>>>> nations and >>>> it >>> certainly does not have the moral >>>>> standing after Iraq and >>>>>>> >>>> >>> Afghanistan to really mediate anywhere in the >>>>> world.  India and >>>> >>> Pakistan >>>>>>> need to, and can settle the issue taking into >>>>> account >>> the >>>> wishes of all the >>>>>>> people of J&K as it stood in 1947.  As I >>>>> >>> have argued >>>> in the past and as >>>>>>> Gen.Musharraf recently said on an >>> NDTV >>>>> interview >>>> that India and Pakistan >>>>>>> were very close to >>> drafting an agreement >>>>> based >>>> on his 4-point formula. >>>>>>> >>> Interestingly, various interpretations of >>>>> this >>>> 4-point formula were >>> thrown >>>>>>> up by all shades of political parties but >>>>> >>>> there was a >>> broad consensus on >>>>>>> this whether from the mainstream groups >>>> or >>>>> the >>> separatists.  The only leader >>>>>>> that rejected this was Mr. >>>> Geelani >>> who >>>>> insisted that the Kashmir ³dispute² >>>>>>> be solved on the UN >>>> >>> Resolutions of >>>>> 1948! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As for borders themselves: what is >>> Europe >>>> today but a borderless >>>>> continent? >>>>>>> You critique the idea of >>> the >>>> nation-state and yet you want to >>>>> re-invent the >>>>>>> wheel by >>> supporting yet >>>> another nation-state in independent >>>>> Kashmir.  Why, >>>>>>> >>> when a 21st c. >>>> solution in the 4-point formula, similar to >>>>> the form >>> and >>>>>>> content of >>>> the EU, could be in the making? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best >>>>> >>> wishes, >>>>>>> >>>> Sonia >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 22/10/10 8:10 PM, >>> "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" >>>>> >>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>> Dear Sonia, (don't worry Pawan, its >>>> a >>>>> lot less than '3000 >>> lines') >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I said - " I do not agree with >>>> much of >>>>> what >>> Geelani Saheb represents >>>>>>>> politically, or ideologically, >>>> but I >>> have >>>>> no hesitation in saying that what >>>>>>>> he >>>>>>>> said yesterday, >>>> >>> was surprising >>>>> for its gentleness, for its consideration, >>>>>>>> >>> for >>>>>>>> >>>> its moderation, even >>>>> for its liberality and open >>> heartedness." >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> What part of this sentence >>>>> seems to suggest >>> that I am 'aligning' with >>>> SAS >>>>>>>> Geelani. The 'I do not >>>>> agree with >>> much' does not seem to indicate >>>> alignment, >>>>>>>> or endorsement to >>>>> me. >>> The rest of the statement is a >>>> statement of fact. Were >>>>>>>> SAS Geelani >>> to >>>>> have said words that were >>>> inflammatory yesterday, I would not >>>>>>>> >>> have >>>>> hesitated to said that he >>>> had. Allow me to elaborate by way of >>> an >>>>>>>> >>>>> example >>>>>>>> - I have never >>>> been in agreement with the >>> political philosophy >>>>> of >>>>>>>> M.K.Gandhi, >>>>>>>> >>>> but I never make the >>> mistake of saying that my >>>>> disagreement with Gandhi >>>> (my >>>>>>>> refusal >>> to endorse Gandhian ideology and >>>>> what it means >>>> politically) >>> amounts >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> my failure to recognize >>>>> Gandhi's >>>> gentleness, >>> his consideration, his >>>>>>>> moderation, his liberality >>>>> and its >>>> open >>> heartedness. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>  I have been strongly critical Islamist >>>>> >>>> >>> politics, including on this forum, >>>>>>>> whenever I have considered it >>>>> >>>> >>> necessary to do so. That is one thing, and it >>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>> where I >>> would >>>>> >>>> differ from SAS Geelani, explicitly, categorically, unless >>> he >>>>>>>> makes a >>>>> >>>> statement, like the Mirwaiz did recently, abjuring an >>> 'Islamist >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>> future >>>>>>>> for Kashmir'. But to say that SAS >>> Geelani has never expressed >>>>> >>>> regret for the >>>>>>>> violence that rocked >>> even the pro-Azadi camp from >>>> within >>>>> is specious. >>>>>>>> Kashmiri >>>>>>>> >>> polticians of all hues routinely >>>> issue >>>>> condemnations of incidents >>> of >>>>>>>> terrorism, and targetted >>>> assasinations. >>>>> Geelani, to my >>> knowledge, has not >>>>>>>> been >>>>>>>> any >>>> exception. Eyewitnesses >>>>> speak >>> of seeing him weeping at Abdul Ghani >>>>>>>> >>>> Lone's >>>>>>>> funeral. I do >>> not >>>>> know, nor do I care, whether these tears >>>> were genuine. All >>>>>>>> >>> I >>>>>>>> am >>>>> saying is that if the man has not said >>>> that he celebrates >>> the assasins of>>>> >>>>> the elder Mirwaiz, or Abdul Ghani >>>> Lone, or the >>> attacks on Dr. Shameema >>>>> that >>>>>>>> you mention, then, it is >>>> unfair to >>> accuse him of 'Not Saying' the >>>>> 'not >>>>>>>> saying'. He condemns >>>> >>> assasinations. He does not celebrate the >>>>> assasin. This >>>>>>>> means that >>> he >>>> cannot be accused of being the source of the >>>>> assasination, >>>>>>>> >>> unless >>>> other concrete evidence is brought to bear upon the >>>>> >>> case. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>  You >>>> may be right when you say that SAS Geelani may be >>> saying >>>>> one thing in >>>>>>>> >>>> Delhi and another in Srinagar.  I am not >>> here to judge the >>>>> sincerity, >>>> or >>>>>>>> lack >>>>>>>> of,  or ambiguity, >>> of these statements. I think >>>>> >>>> politically, the significant >>>>>>>> thing >>> is that whatever he may have said >>>> in >>>>> the past, SAS Geelani, HAS >>> to >>>>>>>> speak >>>>>>>> a language today that is >>>> not >>>>> secterian. He may >>> have done so in the past. Let >>>>>>>> us remember that >>>> he was >>>>> an elected >>> member of the J&K assembly for more than >>>>>>>> one term >>>> in the past, >>>>> >>> and that means he had to swear fealty of some sort to >>>>>>>> >>>> the Indian >>>>> >>> constitution. Judging by this, we should be able to evaluate >>>> his >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>> 'Islamist' commitments in the light of his sometime loyalty to >>>> an >>>>> >>> apparently >>>>>>>> secular constitution. If the sake of argument, we say >>>> >>> that we >>>>> should take >>>>>>>> seriously what came 'after' as representing >>> the >>>> 'maturing' of >>>>> his position, >>>>>>>> then, if his avowedly >>> 'secterian' / >>>> Islamist / Pro-Pakistan >>>>> phase came after >>>>>>>> his phase >>> as an MLA of the >>>> J&K assembly, then, so too >>>>> has this 'current' >>>>>>>> >>> phase >>>>>>>> come >>>> 'after' his secterian posturing. I am >>>>> not the one who >>> needs to split >>>>>>>> >>>> these hairs, but clearly, if some emphasis >>>>> is >>> bieng given to chronology as >>>> a >>>>>>>> way of attributing the man's >>> politics >>>>> to the man's biography, then >>>> let's >>>>>>>> stay >>>>>>>> >>> consistent, and say, that if >>>>> the current SAS Geelani >>>> is saying things >>> that >>>>>>>> don't seem to require the >>>>> automatic assumption >>>> of an Isamic >>> state (which is >>>>>>>> what we would expect >>>>> from the 'old' >>>> Geelani, >>> then, we have every reason to >>>>>>>> take it as >>>>> seriously as when >>>> he >>> made his decision to abandon 'mainstream' >>>>>>>> electoral >>>>> politics in >>>> >>> Jammu and Kashmir for the hardline fringe. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Indeed, I >>>>> would >>> go >>>> so far as to say that as far as we are concerned, we >>>>>>>> >>> should >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>> assume, and hold him, and his followers, responsible to >>> the Œevolution¹>> >>>> of >>>>>>>> their statements, as they occur. If he goes >>> back on the broad, >>>>> >>>> liberal >>>>>>>> nature >>>>>>>> of a vision for Azad >>> kashmir (which, >>>> incidentally, >>>>> among other things, >>>>>>>> included the >>> somewhat whimsical >>>> detail of a provision >>>>> of compensation for >>>>>>>> >>> damages were a believing >>>> Muslim to damage a bottle of >>>>> alchohl of >>> a >>>>>>>> non-believer), then, we >>>> should hold him responsible for that >>>>> >>> regression. He >>>>>>>> made a speech >>>> that was refreshingly free of >>> Islamist >>>>> rhetoric yesterday, >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>> >>>> spoke in the broad >>> terms of 'Insaaniyat' - >>>>> Humanity. If Atal Behari >>>> Vajpayee >>>>>>>> can be >>> appreciated, as indeed he should >>>>> have been, for >>>> speaking in terms >>> of >>>>>>>> 'Insaaniyat' when it came to thinking >>>>> about the >>>> solution to >>> the question of >>>>>>>> Jammu and Kashmir, why could the >>>>> >>>> mainstream >>> media not pick up the fact that >>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>> least in stated >>>> terms, >>>>> >>> SAS Geelani was making as major a move, by invoking >>>>>>>> >>>> 'Insaaniyat' >>> over >>>>> secterian considerations, exactly as Vajpayee had >>>> done. >>>>>>>> >>> Recognizing this >>>>> does not require us to align with, or endorse, >>>> either >>> SAS >>>>>>>> Geelani, or >>>>> Atal Behari Vajpayee, it simply requires us to >>>> >>> register a fact >>>>>>>> that a >>>>> major move is in process. That politics >>> is >>>> being transformed, even as >>>>>>>> we >>>>> speak. I am amazed that this >>>> >>> recognition is being painted as 'alignment, >>>>>>>> >>>>> or >>>>>>>> endorsement'. >>> I >>>> am amazed that this recognition is not getting the >>>>> space I >>>>>>>> >>> think it >>>> deserves, simply as a NEWS story. SAS Geelani says he >>>>> wishes >>> India >>>>>>>> >>>> to >>>>>>>> be a strong country, a regional power, that he >>>>> >>> supports (in >>>> principle) a >>>>>>>> future permanent place for India on the >>> United >>>>> Natons >>>> Security Council, once >>>>>>>> Kashmir is liberated   - in >>> other words, he >>>>> is >>>> saying, let us go, and we >>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>> stand >>> with you, dont you think >>>>> >>>> this is BIG news. That is what I was >>> trying >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> talk about. Trying >>>> to >>>>> talk about does not make >>> me a camp follower of SAS >>>>>>>> Geelani or any >>>> other >>>>> politician, in >>> India, Kashmir, or elsewhere. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> My sense is, >>>> the >>>>> movement >>> for Azadi in Kashmir has gone beyond the persona >>>>>>>> >>>> of >>>>>>>> SAS >>>>> >>> Geelani, and while he is universally respected for his >>>> integrity >>> and >>>>>>>> >>>>> incorruptability, his word is by no means, Œlaw¹. He, >>>> and >>> other leaders >>>>> like >>>>>>>> him, are being Œled¹ as much as they are >>>> >>> Œleading¹ the people they >>>>> claim to >>>>>>>> represent. Part of this >>> process >>>> means giving up the secterian >>>>> rhetoric that >>>>>>>> people in >>> Kashmir >>>> genuinely feel alienated by. We should >>>>> welcome this >>>>>>>> >>>> >>> development. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Now, I come to the views that he >>>>> holds >>> regarding >>>> independence and merger >>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>> Pakistan. He has >>> said, >>>>> including >>>> in his recent interview with Seema Mustafa >>>>>>>> that >>> he PERSONALLY >>>>> prefers >>>> accession to Pakistan, but that he is willing >>> to >>>>>>>> abide by >>>>> whatever >>>> the people of Jammu and Kashmir decide. I >>> do not think >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>> >>>>> the >>>> people of Jammu and Kashmir have a >>> future with Pakistan.So, I >>>>> >>>> disagree >>>>>>>> with SAS Geelani's personal >>> view. I strongly argue for a >>>>> >>>> demilitarized, >>>>>>>> independent, secular >>> Jammu and Kashmir. That makes me >>>>> >>>> someone who does not >>>>>>>> endorse >>> SAS Geelani's position. Let's look at >>>> thigns >>>>> this way, had this >>> been >>>>>>>> 1935, I would probably have not been >>>> in agreement >>>>> with M.K. >>> Gandhi's vision >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> what he thought the >>>> future of South >>>>> >>> Asia and India ought to be. But that >>>>>>>> does >>>>>>>> not >>>> mean that I >>> would >>>>> dismiss Gandhi as irrelevant, or someone to be >>>> mocked >>>>>>>> and >>> reviled. I >>>>> would engage with him politicially, as many >>>> currents in >>> India >>>>>>>> at that >>>>> time did. They were not uncritical of >>>> Gandhi (from >>> the left and the >>>>>>>> >>>>> right) but they knew that Gandhi's >>>> voice had a >>> certain resonance. I think>>>> >>>>> that >>>>>>>> the attitude that >>>> people >>> have towards SAS Geelani is not dissimilar. >>>>> They >>>>>>>> may >>>>>>>> not >>>> >>> agree with him on many counts, and most Kashmiris that >>>>> I know >>>> >>> personally >>>>>>>> would fit that description. But none would want to >>>>> >>> dismiss >>>> or demonize him. >>>>>>>> Primarily because of his unwillingness to >>> be an >>>>> >>>> occasional pawn in the hands >>>>>>>> of the >>> occupation. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>  I have yet >>>> to >>>>> come across an Indian >>> politician who is willing to say, on >>>>>>>> >>>> the >>>>>>>> >>>>> record, that he >>> PERSONALLY prefers that Jammu and Kashmir stay >>>> with >>>>> India, >>>>>>>> >>> but >>>>>>>> will respect whatever the people of Jammu and >>>> Kashmir >>>>> decide >>> in a free and >>>>>>>> fair plebiscite. If that were to be the >>>> case, then >>>>> >>> we would get much further >>>>>>>> than where we are today in >>>> Kashmir. I have >>> no >>>>> quarrel with those who want >>>>>>>> Kashmir to stay in >>>> India. Theirs >>> is a point >>>>> of view. It needs to be freely >>>>>>>> heard, freely >>>> debated, >>> and if is >>>>> convincing to the people of Jammu and >>>>>>>> Kashmir, >>>> best of >>> luck to those who >>>>> carry the day. What I am against is >>>>>>>> >>>> >>> maintaining Jammu and Kashmir as >>>>> parts of the Indian Union by force. >>>> >>> By >>>>>>>> violence. By occupation. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> Finally, I come to the >>> five >>>> points, and whether or not, sticking to the >>>>>>>> >>>>> point >>>>>>>> >>> about Kashmir >>>> being disputed is an obstacle. Lets face facts. >>>>> Kashmir >>> is a >>>>>>>> dispute. >>>> Every single map of the world that is not printed >>>>> >>> in India shows >>>>>>>> >>>> it, >>>>>>>> visually, as a disputed territory. That is >>> why >>>>> the Government of >>>> India has >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> put its silly ink >>> stamp on atlases. >>>>> That is why >>>> there is a United Nations >>>>>>>> Observer >>> group in Delhi, Islamabad >>>>> and >>>> Srinagar. United Nations observers >>>>>>>> >>> are >>>>>>>> present, in the same >>>> way, >>>>> in say Cyprus (another dispute) >>> Israel / >>>>>>>> Palestine, >>>>>>>> >>>> another dispute. >>>>> What is the big deal >>> in saying, yes, it is a dispute. >>>> Will >>>>>>>> India >>>>> disappear if the >>> public secret is admitted to? As far as I >>>> am >>>>>>>> >>>>> concerned >>>>>>>> >>> borders, and sovereignty, are less important than >>>> the lives of >>>>> people. >>> If >>>>>>>> discussing a border, and what it means, can >>>> be a method to >>>>> >>> save lives, then >>>>>>>> refusing to do so, is a crime. The >>>> Government of >>> India >>>>> can offer to >>>>>>>> 'discuss' >>>>>>>> - sovereignty over >>>> those >>> areas of the >>>>> India-Tibet border that were taken by >>>>>>>> force >>>> majeure >>> by British Imperial >>>>> power, but it will sacrifice the lives of >>>>>>>> >>>> >>> hundreds of thousands of people >>>>> in order to keep the fetish of the >>>> >>> Indian >>>>>>>> Union's  soveriegnty and >>>>> integrity alive in the case of >>> Jammu >>>> and Kashmir. >>>>>>>> This policy seems to me >>>>> to be totally >>> criminal and >>>> misguided. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Borders are made by human >>>>> beings, >>> and can be changed >>>> by human beings. The >>>>>>>> geographical expression >>>>> >>> of the Union of India is >>>> not divinely ordained. >>>>>>>> Sensible people all >>> over >>>>> the world, understand >>>> that maps can change, and >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>> >>> they do change. >>>>> We hope that the >>>> map of China can someday be drawn >>> in >>>>>>>> Chinese >>>>>>>> school >>>>> text books >>>> without engulfing Tibet. If >>> that can be a reasonable >>>>>>>> >>>>> desire, >>>>>>>> >>>> and not be seen as an >>> 'obstruction', why should a similar desire >>>>> be seen >>>> as >>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>> >>> obstruction in the case of India and Jammu and >>>>> Kashmir. >>>> Arnab >>> Goswami >>>>>>>> repeatedly used the word 'splittist' yestyerday to >>>>> >>>> refer >>> to all those who >>>>>>>> were >>>>>>>> speaking at the meeting at the LTG >>>>> >>>> >>> yesterday. A word that is used by the >>>>>>>> Chinese government and the >>>> >>> Chinese >>>>> Communist Party whenever it refers to the >>>>>>>> Dalai Lama and >>> the >>>> movement for >>>>> a free Tibet. Are we (our government, >>>>>>>> >>> sections >>>>>>>> of >>>> our media) aping >>>>> the Chinese government and the >>> behemoth of the >>>> Chinese >>>>>>>> Communist Party in >>>>> aligning and >>> endorsing ourselves with the >>>> fetish of a man >>>>>>>> made fiction of >>>>> >>> sovereignty. I should hope that we >>>> can do better than that. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>> best >>>>> regards, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>> Shuddha >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> _________________________________________ >>>>>>> reader-list: an open >>>> >>> discussion >>>>> list on media and the city. >>>>>>> Critiques & >>> Collaborations >>>>>>> >>>> To subscribe: >>>>> send an email to >>> reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> subscribe >>>>>>> in the >>>>> subject >>> header. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe: >>>>> >>>> >>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>>>> List archive: >>>>> >>>> >>> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>> >>>> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >>>>>>> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >>>>>>> Raqs >>> Media >>>>> >>>> Collective >>>>>>> shuddha at sarai.net >>>>>>> >>> www.sarai.net >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> www.raqsmediacollective.net >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> _________________________________________ >>>>> reader-list: an open >>>> >>> discussion >>>>> list on media and the city. >>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>> >>> To >>>> subscribe: send >>>>> an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in >>>> the subject >>>>> header. >>>>> To unsubscribe: >>>>> >>>> >>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>> List archive: >>>>> >>>> >>> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> >>>> >>> ___________________________ >>>>> ______________ >>>> reader-list: an open >>>> >>> discussion list on media and the >>>>> city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> >>> To >>>> subscribe: send an email to >>>>> reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in >>>> the subject header. >>>> To >>>>> unsubscribe: >>>> >>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: >>>>> >>>> >>> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _____________________ >>>> ____________________ >>> reader-list: an open >>> discussion list on media and the >>>> city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To >>> subscribe: send an email to >>>> reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in >>> the subject header. >>> To >>>> unsubscribe: >>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: >>>> >>> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >>> >>> >> _____________________ >>> ____________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the >>> city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to >>> reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >> To >>> unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: >>> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From subhachops at gmail.com Tue Oct 26 17:43:40 2010 From: subhachops at gmail.com (Subhash) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 17:43:40 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?iso-8859-1?q?Azadi=3A_The_Only_Way_=AD_Report_fro?= =?iso-8859-1?q?m_a_Turbulent_Few_Hours_in_Delhi?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Aditya Baul Sorry, no one will take you seriously with this identity any more - its futile trying to convince people that you have a real identity, since your name seems to everyone to be mocking Aditya Kaul. In any case the Sarai people are very clever - they can figure out from your IP address where you are writing from and who you are. best Subhash On 10/26/10, Aditya Raj Baul wrote: > My name is Aditya Raj Baul. Just because I'm not famous like you, you > can allege that my real name is something else. This is offensive, to > say the least. > > Your pre-condition for dialogue with me proves my charge. If my "real" > identity matters to thsi conversation, as you claim it does, then it > means your response would depend on who I am. You would say one thing > if I were Praveen Swami, another if I were Dileep Padgaonkar, a third > if I were the India editor of The India, Australia, something > completely different if I were Masarat Alam, something more nuanced if > I were Yasin Malik, something more aggressive if I were SAS Geelani. > > You accuse me of not being Aditya Raj Baul. Yet it is you who's afraid > of being Sonia Jabbar. > > For all you know, may be I'm you. > > I asked you: > > "I like it how Sonia Jabbar wants to hold Kashmir hostage to history - > to the histories of India and Pakistan, to the history of what Geelani > has or has not done, has or has not said. She does not think history > is irrelevant to today's people who want azadi today in today's > context - sorry, she says, India has signed the Simla agreement, and > Geelani is a fanatic. Thank you. Fair enough, I suppose. But will she > apply the same rigours of historical understanding to the Indian state > and its actions in Kashmir? Please?" > > I would be happy to clarify my question, if only you'd ask me what > about it you don't understand. But all you want to do is be > condescending, suspicious and irritable. > > Thanks but not thanks, > Aditya Raj Baul > > > On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 4:22 PM, SJabbar wrote: >> Sorry, didn't mean to be. Was just poking mild fun at your assumed name. >> I'd be very happy to have a serious conversation with you any time, but it >> would be nice if I knew whom I was addressing. I'm really not interested >> in >> scoring debating points and this is what has been happening in this forum >> particularly with people with false identities. >> Sincerely, >> Sonia >> >> >> On 26/10/10 4:15 PM, "Aditya Raj Baul" wrote: >> >>> You can be as contemptuous as you want. Doesn't take away from your >>> hypocrisy >> >> On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 4:10 PM, SJabbar >>> wrote: >>> Oh whenever you want, dear boy, since you believe in making >>> history. >>> Atilla D. Hun >>> >>> >>> On 26/10/10 4:01 PM, "Aditya Raj Baul" >>> wrote: >>> >>>> My question is: when will you make Rahul >>> PM? >>> >>> On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 3:58 PM, >>>> SJabbar >>> wrote: >>>> Aditya Raj Baul, >>>> What exactly is >>>> your question? >>>> >>> Sincerely, >>>> Sonia Gandhi >>>> >>>> >>>> On 26/10/10 2:04 PM, "Aditya >>>> Raj Baul" >>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I like it how Sonia Jabbar >>>> wants to >>> hold Kashmir hostage to history - >>>> to the >>>>> histories of India and >>>> >>> Pakistan, to the history of what Geelani >>>> has or has not >>>>> done, has or >>> has >>>> not said. She does not think history >>>> is irrelevant to today's >>>>> >>> people who >>>> want azadi today in today's >>>> context - sorry, she says, India >>> has >>>>> signed >>>> the Simla agreement, and >>>> Geelani is a fanatic. Thank you. >>> Fair enough, >>>>> I >>>> suppose. But will she >>>> apply the same rigours of >>> historical understanding >>>> to >>>>> the Indian state >>>> and its actions in >>> Kashmir? Please? >>>> >>>> On Mon, Oct >>>> 25, 2010 at >>>>> 9:53 AM, SJabbar >>> wrote: >>>>> Dear >>>> Shuddha, >>>>> >>>>> I think >>>>> our >>> differences have narrowed considerably as you >>>> continue to >>>>> clarify >>> your >>>>> position. Reading between your lines, you seem >>>> to think that >>> I >>>>> have a >>>>> problem with your engaging with Mr. Geelani or >>>> that the >>> problem was >>>>> your >>>>> sharing a stage with him. I do not not. In >>>> >>> politics there are no >>>>> pariahs. >>>>> If someone represents a >>> constituency-- >>>> no matter how marginal-- >>>>> that is >>>>> part of the social >>> fabric you cannot >>>> ignore it. It may surprise you >>>>> and >>>>> many on this >>> list to know that Mr. >>>> Geelani and I have known each other >>>>> >>>>> since >>> 1997 and have extremely frank >>>> and cordial relations. My problem was> >>>>> >>> with the language of your report of >>>> the meeting where your >>> enthusiasm >>>>> >>>>> (“tallest separatist leader,” he is >>>> “NOT against >>> dialogue,” “all that they >>>>> >>>>> are asking for is the Right to >>>> >>> self-determination”) masked a political >>>>> >>>>> reality that was far more >>>> >>> complex and brutal. However, you have since >>>>> >>>>> clarified that you do >>> not >>>> endorse Mr. Geelani’s politics and you concede >>>>> >>>>> that he may >>> well have >>>> been playing to audiences in Delhi, bringing us more >>>>> >>>>> or >>> less on the >>>> same page except that past experience has made me less >>> likely >>>>> >>>>> to share >>>> your belief that someone like Mr. Geelani can be >>> “USED” or that you >>>>> >>>>> can >>>> “compel them to come to a degree of >>> moderation in action, and a >>>>> >>>>> >>>> greater, more imaginative radicalism in >>> terms of conceptions.” >>>>> >>>>> I am >>>> glad >>>>> you agree that people and >>> groups, state and non-state actors who >>>>> >>>> have >>>>> committed crimes must >>> stand trial and justice must be done, whether >>>> it >>>>> is >>>>> SAS Geelani, >>> Yasin Malik, Syed Salahuddin or various army generals >>>> who >>>>> have >>>>> >>> presided over rights abuses while they served in J&K. I have in >>>> this >>>>> >>> forum >>>>> written of a Truth & Reconciliation Commission modeled on the >>>> >>> South >>>>> African >>>>> experience that should follow the final settlement on >>>> >>> J&K. >>>>> >>>>> I am also glad >>>>> that you agree with my point of the futility >>> of >>>> creating a >>>>> new nation-state >>>>> in the form of an independent >>> Kashmir ( “I >>>> am not for the >>>>> moment saying and >>>>> have never said that >>> an independent >>>> Kashmir will be in any >>>>> way a qualitative >>>>> improvement >>> (in terms of a >>>> state form) than an occupied >>>>> Kashmir,”). But you >>>>> >>> seem to believe that >>>> it is necessary because “ It may >>>>> at least lead to >>> the >>>>> withdrawal of the >>>> reality of a brutal occupation.” By >>>>> this I >>> assume your >>>>> vision of regime >>>> change means replacing one democratic >>>>> >>> republic with another >>>>> democratic >>>> republic and not an Islamic republic >>> or a >>>>> military state. In >>>>> which case >>>> “the reality of a brutal >>> occupation” must >>>>> mean the withdrawal of >>>>> >>>> hundreds of thousands of >>> uniformed men in J&K. But >>>>> do you really need >>>> to >>>>> create a new >>> nation-state in order to demilitarize >>>>> Kashmir? >>>>> >>>>> >>>> From 1947 to >>>>> >>> 1989 India’s military presence was restricted to the >>>> borders >>>>> and to the >>> few >>>>> garrisons of Srinagar, Baramulla, Leh, Udhampur >>>> and Poonch. >>>>> >>> Between 1989- >>>>> 1992 India was being seriously challenged on >>>> the >>> military >>>>> front by thousands >>>>> of Kashmiri militants and Islamist >>>> >>> mujahideen. The troop >>>>> surge only >>>>> happened only around 1992-93 and >>> the >>>> Indian military was only >>>>> able to >>>>> control the situation around >>> 1995. In >>>> 1996 the situation was such >>>>> that it >>>>> was the first time in >>> 6 years it was >>>> possible to hold elections and >>>>> yet then >>>>> as in 2002 >>> there were hundreds >>>> of assassinations of political >>>>> candidates and >>>>> >>> ordinary workers of >>>> political parties (the right to >>>>> self-determination >>> is >>>>> never extended to >>>> this group). >>>>> >>>>> Anyway, my point is that >>> 500,000 or 700,000 >>>>> troops were >>>> not there as a >>>>> permanent fixture >>> since 1947 and the ‘most >>>>> militarized >>>> place in the world’ >>>>> was not >>> always so. It is both desirable and >>>>> >>>> possible to withdraw troops >>> and >>>>> it should be done in a phased manner. >>>>> >>>> Though I have been vocal >>> in >>>>> advocating this since 2001, sadly, I believe >>>> it >>>>> will be linked >>> to the final >>>>> settlement and will not happen before >>>> because of >>>>> the >>> many sleeper cells of >>>>> militants that get activated the >>>> moment there >>> is >>>>> peace or at least as they >>>>> say ‘normalcy’— as we have >>>> seen in >>> last week’s >>>>> encounter between troops and >>>>> the JeM in Srinagar. >>>> BTW >>> Srinagar district was >>>>> one of the districts being >>>>> examined for the >>>> >>> revocation of the Disturbed >>>>> Areas Act. This encounter will >>>>> make it >>>> >>> extremely difficult for the state >>>>> government to do so. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I am >>> glad >>>> you agree with me that the 4-point >>>>> formula can be a solution >>> to >>>>> the >>>> vexed Kashmir issue, however your reading >>>>> of what went wrong >>> and putting >>>>> >>>> the onus of the failure of implementation >>>>> squarely on >>> New Delhi’s >>>> shoulder >>>>> is wrong. Yes, there were delays on New >>>>> >>> Delhi’s side, but >>>> those were not >>>>> remarkable considering a political >>>>> >>> consensus had to be >>>> built within the >>>>> country (I think it was in 2008 >>> during >>>>> the Amarnath >>>> Yatra that I explained >>>>> the entire process at >>> length in this >>>>> forum). >>>> Very simply what happened was >>>>> that the >>> Lawyer’s Movement in >>>>> Pakistan >>>> overtook the Kashmir process and once >>>>> >>> Mushrraf was ousted and >>>>> Benazir >>>> was assassinated the country plunged >>> into >>>>> political turmoil and the >>>>> >>>> Zaradari government was too weak to >>> break from >>>>> Pakistan’s traditional >>>> stand >>>>> of the UN Resolutions. >>> Both Gen Kayani and the >>>>> ISI were not >>>> comfortable >>>>> with Musharraf’s >>> radical departure from tradition. >>>>> Both >>>> believe Pakistan’s >>>>> best >>> interests are served by keeping the Kashmir pot >>>>> >>>> boiling, >>> maintaining >>>>> India as ‘enemy no 1’, encouraging extremism in >>>>> >>>> >>> Afghanistan to maintain >>>>> ‘strategic depth,’ and to scuttle any >>> influence >>>>> >>>> India may wield in >>>>> Afghanistan. So, as much as I and >>> many others would >>>> like >>>>> to see the 4-point >>>>> formula being at least >>> discussed, under the >>>> present >>>>> Pakistani dispensation >>>>> it is highly >>> unlikely. >>>>> >>>>> When you >>>> advocate a plebiscite and you believe that >>>>> >>> the azadi movement must >>>>> be >>>> peaceful then you must also accommodate >>> the >>>>> possibility of a partitioned >>>>> >>>> J&K, where large sections of Jammu >>> and all of >>>>> Ladakh would not vote for >>>>> >>>> Pakistan (and under what UN >>> Resolution would the >>>>> option of independence >>>> be >>>>> granted since NO UN >>> Resolution holds that option >>>>> and no Kashmiri to >>>> date has >>>>> appealed >>> to the UN to pass a resolution to >>>>> include the option?) >>>> And how >>>>> >>> would you persuade Pakistan to allow a >>>>> plebiscite in areas under >>>> >>> their >>>>> control? And what is your opinion of the >>>>> vast region of >>>> >>> Gilgit-Baltistan >>>>> that by Pakistani law has been severed from >>>>> the >>> state >>>> of Jammu & Kashmir and >>>>> where its citizens have NO fundamental >>>>> >>> rights as >>>> its constitutional status >>>>> has not as yet been >>> determined? >>>>> >>>>> I am >>>>> >>>> asking these questions not to score points but >>> for us to locate what is >>>>> >>>>> >>>> moral or desirable within what is real and >>> possible not just for >>>> Kashmiris >>>>> >>>>> who are but a small part of the >>> state, but of all the people >>>> of Jammu & >>>>> >>>>> Kashmir. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>> Sonia >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> My question is, what do we >>> do >>>>> next. I think that this means that the >>>> people >>>>>> 'learn' to USE >>> them, to >>>>> compel them to come to a degree of >>>> moderation in >>>>>> action, >>> and a greater, >>>>> more imaginative radicalism in >>>> terms of >>> conceptions. >>>>>> That is why, the >>>>> current situation in Kashmir, >>>> where >>> the 'Leaders' are being >>>>>> 'Led' by people >>>>> is interesting to me. I >>>> >>> find it POSITIVE that they have to do >>>>>> flip-flops so >>>>> often, from >>>> >>> Hartal-to-No Hartal- to Hartal again. This shows >>>>>> that they are >>>>> NOT >>>> >>> running the street. Things are unpredictable. The change in >>>>>> the >>>>> >>>> >>> 'temperature' of SAS Geelani's statements may be as much due to the >>>> >>> fact >>>>>> >>>>> that he is no longer in a position to call all the shots. >>>> >>> Therefore, he has >>>>>> >>>>> less to lose by 'changing' his tenor. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>> There >>>> is a way in which the >>>>> language of politics has changed, and it >>> has >>>>>> >>>> changed because of the way in >>>>> which people are communicating >>> on all sorts >>>> of >>>>>> fora. Though they may, out >>>>> of affection, still say >>> that only Geelani >>>> will do >>>>>> the Tarjumani, the truth >>>>> is, everyone is >>> doing their own >>>> Tarjumani now. and >>>>>> that is the hardest nut >>>>> for the >>> Government of India >>>> to crack. As an anarchist, >>>>>> I find this >>>>> >>> situation, of the actual, >>>> concrete, refusal of 'representational >>>>>> forms >>> of >>>>> politics' . however >>>> ephemeral it might be at present, quite >>>>>> >>> delightful. SO >>>>> much so, that a >>>> 'theatre' of leadership continues, >>> but >>>>>> actuality presumes a >>>>> totally >>>> different language of >>> politics. >>>>>> >>>>>> I find this a fertile situation, >>>>> >>>> one latent with >>> possibilities, for everyone. >>>>>> >>>>>> As for your other >>>> point, >>>>> about >>> how close we all were to the beginnings of the >>>>>> long road >>>> towards a >>>>> >>> solution with Musharraf's four point formula - I agree >>>>>> with >>>> you. But, >>> then, >>>>> it was the Government of India that scuttled that >>>>>> >>>> >>> possibility. If the >>>>> government of India had acted then, on what was on >>>> >>> offer, >>>>>> perhaps things >>>>> would not have come to the situation where >>> they >>>> are at present. >>>>>> Too much >>>>> has gone wrong since then. I am not >>> a >>>> nationalist of any sort, and to >>>>>> me, >>>>> ALL nation states, and all >>> nation >>>> states in waiting, are ultimately the>> >>>>> actors of the tragedies >>> of their >>>> own making and choosing, >>>>>> So, basically, I >>>>> am not for the >>> moment saying >>>> and have never said that an >>>>>> independent >>>>> Kashmir will >>> be in any way a >>>> qualitative improvement (in terms of >>>>>> a state >>>>> form) >>> than an occupied >>>> Kashmir, but, It may at least lead to the >>>>>> >>> withdrawal >>>>> of the reality of >>>> a brutal occupation. >>>>>> >>>>>> For me, >>> whatever makes that >>>>> possible, I am >>>> prepared to accept. There were, >>> and >>>>>> remain many >>>>> possibilities that span >>>> the spectrum from where >>> the situation is >>>>>> at present >>>>> to Indpendence or >>>> accession to >>> Pakistan. But thinking about those >>>>>> >>>>> possibilities require >>>> all >>> Indians to stop thinking only out of the Indian>> >>>>> nationalist box. You >>>> >>> know very well, that many different kinds of >>>>> arrangement >>>>>> could >>> have >>>> been explored. including maximum autonomy under the >>>>> aegis of >>> a >>>>>> joint >>>> India-Pakistan guarantee, which is what I understand the >>>>> >>> Musharraf >>>>>> >>>> formula to have been, But the bottom line is, whatever is >>> worked >>>>> out has to >>>> be >>>>>> acceptable to the popular will, hence a >>> plebiscite with many >>>>> options >>>> on offer, >>>>>> and the freedom to campaign >>> for the many options in an >>>>> >>>> atomsphere free of >>>>>> coercion. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>> Realistically speaking, I do not >>>> think >>>>> that the Government of India has >>> the >>>>>> imagination any longer to >>>> try and >>>>> think out of the box. If it >>> can, that would >>>>>> be great. But, >>>> going by the >>>>> ostrich like attitude >>> of the Government in the >>>>>> face of the >>>> obvious >>>>> alienation of the >>> Kashmiri people, I very much doubt it. >>>>>> If >>>> they had that >>>>> >>> intelligence, they could have stopped the killings by the >>>>>> >>>> security >>> forces a >>>>> long time ago. >>>>>> >>>>>> Therefore, the only remaining >>>> >>> possibility for ending the >>>>> occupation seems to >>>>>> me to be >>> independence >>>> for Kashmir, in the short term, >>>>> under the >>> custodianship >>>>>> of the United >>>> Nations, like happened in Kosovo.Of >>>>> >>> course, I strongly assert >>>>>> that the >>>> political road to this must be >>> through >>>>> non-violent means, through >>>>>> mass >>>> political participation, >>> of as many >>>>> different sections of the >>>> population >>>>>> as possible. It >>> will be painful, for >>>>> many Indians to accept, >>>> but in the long >>>>>> term, >>> and in the absence of any >>>>> other imaginative >>>> solutions thought through >>> by >>>>>> the Indian political elites >>>>> (that chance >>>> has come, and sadly, >>> gone) it will be >>>>>> in the best interests of >>>>> the >>>> people of India. Of >>> course, the challenge for the >>>>>> people of Kashmir >>>>> >>>> would be to think >>> through a vision of independence that does >>>>>> not have >>>> them >>>>> switch >>> slavery to Indian occupation to slavery to the Pakistani >>>>>> >>>> >>> militarist >>>>> elite. The challenge would be to come up with proposals for >>>> >>> a >>>>>> >>>>> demilitarized, non-aggressive Kashmir that can preserve its >>> cultural >>>> and >>>>>> >>>>> social openness and liberality, that can take back >>> displaced >>>> minorities, >>>>> and >>>>>> can offer them genuine, not token safety >>> and security. >>>> That is the hard >>>>> work >>>>>> that imaginative politics will >>> have to undertake >>>> in Kashmir. And we >>>>> should >>>>>> never stop expecting >>> and demanding that from >>>> all our Kashmiri >>>>> friends. I >>>>>> never, ever >>> cease doing so. >>>>>> >>>>>> In the >>>> long term, this fact, >>>>> an Independent >>> Kashmir, could actually be the >>>>>> >>>> cornerstone of a broad South >>>>> Asian >>> Union (modelled on the EU) which >>>> could >>>>>> bring the different >>>>> >>> nationalities (there may be many by then) of >>>> South Asia >>>>>> under an >>>>> >>> arrangement of a free trade zone, a visa free zone, >>>> a customs and >>>>>> >>> tarrifs >>>>> union, a charter on shared ecological concerns, >>>> and >>> comprehensive >>>>>> >>>>> demilitarization. An independent Kashmir may be the >>>> >>> first step in that >>>>>> >>>>> direction. Of course this need not happen. >>> Things >>>> could get worse if >>>>> Kashmir >>>>>> separates. I am well aware and >>> cognizant of >>>> that possibility. But, >>>>> at least, >>>>>> once the dust and >>> din settles, in our >>>> lifetime, there is a >>>>> likelihood that >>>>>> once >>> everyone has climbed off >>>> their nationalist high >>>>> horses, things might >>> be >>>>>> worked out, amicably and >>>> reasonably between all the >>>>> stake >>> holders of a future >>>>>> free association >>>> of South Asian States and >>>>> >>> Territories. That, I think is the >>>>>> only >>>> guarantee for peace in our >>> region. I >>>>> know for certain that an India and >>>>>> >>>> Pakistan that >>> continue to hold on to >>>>> their respective fragments of Jammu >>>> and >>>>>> >>> Kashmir, and an India that enforces >>>>> that occupation by military >>>> force >>> cannot >>>>>> contribute to peace in the >>>>> region. >>>>>> >>>>>> That is why, I >>>> >>> think that freedom for Kashmir, and also, >>>>> incidentally for >>>>>> Tibet, >>> is >>>> key to long term peace and stability in Asia, >>>>> because both >>> these >>>>>> >>>> developments would reduce the necessity of the big >>>>> poweres >>> of tomorrow - >>>> China >>>>>> and India and to a lesser extent - Pakistan >>>>> >>> from being aggressive >>>> nuclear >>>>>> powered rivals, and would perhaps, >>> perhaps, >>>>> open out the true >>>> possibility of >>>>>> what a worthwhile Asian >>> Century really >>>>> ought to be like. >>>> Otherwise, I am >>>>>> afraid that we >>> will replay the disasters >>>>> of the >>>> European history of the >>>>>> Twentieth >>> Century, from the First World War >>>>> >>>> onwards, on the soil of Twenty >>>>>> >>> First Century Asia. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I hope i >>>> have >>>>> made myself >>> clear >>>>>> >>>>>> best, >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>> Shuddha >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On >>>>> 23-Oct-10, at 7:45 PM, >>> SJabbar >>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Sorry for cross-posting but I >>>>> sent this >>> message out in the >>>> morning as a >>>>>>> response to Shuddha¹s 2nd post >>>>> >>> but received an automated >>>> email saying my >>>>>>> post had to be reviewed by >>> the >>>>> moderator. Since I >>>> haven¹t received a >>>>>>> response (Monica??!) I >>> assume it >>>>> was not approved >>>> or got lost in the vast >>>>>>> belly of the >>> Sarai computer! >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> ------------------------------------- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Shuddha, let us >>> take >>>> your >>>>> arguments and apply them to the other side. Modi >>>>>>> >>> belongs to a >>>> political >>>>> party that was in power and he was at the helm >>> when >>>>>>> the 2002 >>>> Gujarat >>>>> carnage took place. He may not have >>> explicitly directed it >>>>>>> >>>> but he >>>>> certainly presided over the >>> violence. What Modi is like as a >>>> person, >>>>>>> >>>>> whether he is gentle, >>> cultured, cries at the funeral of his >>>> friends or his >>>>>>> >>>>> rivals are >>> of no concern to me (It is well known that >>>> Goebbels was a >>>>>>> >>>>> >>> cultured man and had a refined taste in music and the >>>> arts and of >>> course >>>>>>> >>>>> Jinnah ate ham sandwiches). What matters to me is >>>> that the >>> man presided >>>>> over >>>>>>> the worst kind of violence and has refused >>>> to, >>> till date, condemn >>>>> it >>>>>>> unambiguously. Instead he and his party >>>> >>> continue to cite the >>>>> economic >>>>>>> progress of Muslims in Gujarat to >>>> >>> counter it. The subtext of >>>>> this‹ and this >>>>>>> is a South Asian >>> disease‹ >>>> is let us forget the past, >>>>> galtiyan dono taraf se >>>>>>> huin >>> hain >>>> (³action-reaction²), and let us move on. >>>>> Whether it is the >>>>>>> >>> various >>>> political parties in India who have incited, >>>>> controlled and >>> presided >>>>>>> >>>> over the worst communal or sectarian violence from >>>>> the >>> 1930¹s to the >>>> present >>>>>>> day, or the Pakistani army role in the mass >>>>> >>> rapes of >>>> Bangladesh or the Sri >>>>>>> Lankan army¹s role against Tamil >>> civilians, >>>>> >>>> every political party in these >>>>>>> countries seem to be >>> inflicted by the >>>> same >>>>> disease. >>>>>>> Having said that, I believe it is >>> the role of civil >>>> society to be >>>>> vigilant, >>>>>>> to be rigorous, to not >>> succumb to the same >>>> logic. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I know >>>>> that you have been >>> critical of fundamentalist >>>> politics in this forum >>>>>>> and >>>>> others, >>> whether it is Hindutva or Islamist >>>> and that is why it surprised >>>>>>> >>> me >>>>> to read your post on the LTG event. >>>> You say ³You may be right when >>> you>>> >>>>> say that SAS Geelani may be saying >>>> one thing in Delhi and >>> another in >>>>>>> >>>>> Srinagar. I am not here to judge >>>> the sincerity, or >>> lack of, or >>>>> ambiguity, >>>>>>> of these statements.² Why >>>> are you not >>> here to judge the >>>>> sincerity or lack >>>>>>> thereof of these >>>> statements? >>> Surely, one is always >>>>> judging political >>>>>>> parties when they >>>> claim >>> one or another thing? How does >>>>> one align oneself >>>>>>> politically if >>>> >>> one goes simply by manifestos and not by >>>>> actions? Judging >>>>>>> and >>>> >>> evaluating is a constant process. Mamta Bannerjee >>>>> may have been >>> one >>>>>>> >>>> thing as a member of the opposition but how will she be >>>>> when >>> she comes >>>> to >>>>>>> power? One reads her statements, one watches >>> carefully >>>>> her >>>> actions >>>>>>> following her statements. If they don¹t >>> gel, we believe her >>>>> >>>> to be >>>>>>> insincere. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You write: ³I am >>> amazed that this recognition >>>> is >>>>> not getting the space I >>>>>>> think it >>> deserves, simply as a NEWS story. >>>> ³ Do >>>>> you remember Atal Behari >>>>>>> >>> Vajpayee shed tears after the demolition >>>> of the >>>>> Babri Masjid and >>> Advani >>>>>>> described it as ³the saddest day of his >>>> life.² >>>>> Should >>> these isolated moments >>>>>>> and statements be highlighted and >>>> >>> privileged >>>>> as representing the 2 men¹s >>>>>>> position on the Babri Masjid >>> or >>>> should one >>>>> judge them over a longer period >>>>>>> of time, weighing >>> their >>>> statements and >>>>> their actions? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As for Mr. Geelani and >>> evaluating >>>> his actions, do you >>>>> believe a responsible >>>>>>> leader ought >>> to lead from >>>> the front or give calls to >>>>> his followers to engage >>>>>>> >>> in actions that >>>> will cause injury or even death >>>>> from the safety of his >>> home? >>>>>>> Mr. >>>> Geelani is fully aware that in any part >>>>> of this planet >>> if you pelt >>>>>>> >>>> stones at a man with a gun, there is a fair >>>>> chance >>> that the man with the >>>> gun >>>>>>> is going to retaliate. When he was >>>>> >>> released from jail he made a >>>> fine >>>>>>> statement calling for the end of >>> the >>>>> hartaal calendar, saying >>>> that this was >>>>>>> not the way forward, >>> that these >>>>> protests could not be >>>> sustained, that life >>>>>>> could not >>> come to a standstill >>>>> (btw, the Sopore >>>> fruit mandi, his >>>>>>> >>> constituency, continued to function >>>>> through this >>>> entire period >>> hartaal >>>>>>> calendar or not). These were wise >>>>> words from a >>>> man who >>> has been in politics >>>>>>> for years. Wise words or the >>>>> thinking of >>>> >>> the ISI, I¹m not sure because the >>>>>>> words were echoed by Syed >>>>> >>>> >>> Salahuddin. What follows is interesting: >>>>>>> Salahuddin¹s effigy is >>> burnt >>>> and >>>>> a rumour is floated that Mr. Geelani is >>>>>>> selling out to >>> Omar >>>> Abdullah. >>>>> Does Mr. Geelani stand by his words? Does he >>>>>>> do >>> what >>>> Gandhi does after >>>>> Chauri Chaura? No, of course not. He does >>> a >>>>>>> total >>>> U-turn and starts >>>>> competing with Masrat Alam on the >>> calendars, >>>>>>> >>>> subjecting the people of the >>>>> valley to more misery. >>> What do ordinary >>>>>>> >>>> Kashmiris feel about the >>>>> continuation of this >>> absurd form of protest >>>> where >>>>>>> they and not the >>>>> Government of India >>> suffer? You may find the >>>> answer in the >>>>>>> fact that >>>>> there was not a >>> single protest when Masrat >>>> Alam was arrested. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Again >>>>> Mr. >>> Geelani saying he Œpersonally¹ >>>> favours the accession to Pakistan >>>>>>> >>> but >>>>> will Œabide by¹ what the people >>>> of J&K want is neither here nor >>> there. >>>>>>> >>>>> What you see as a maturing >>>> position may be read as an >>> opportunistic one >>>>>>> >>>>> until such time as it is >>>> tested. As I have >>> already shown in my last post >>>>>>> >>>>> Mr. Geelani, his >>>> political party >>> and his ideology have since the mid-90¹s >>>>>>> >>>>> shown no such >>>> respectful >>> accommodation of the political views of others. >>>>> In >>>>>>> fact >>>> any >>> divergence from this view has been silenced by the bullet. >>>>> If >>>> >>> this >>>>>>> is someone¹s history‹ and as much as I should wish it >>> otherwise-- >>>>> >>>> it is >>>>>>> very, very difficult for me to suspend my >>> cynicism and turn >>>>> >>>> enthusiastic >>>>>>> cartwheels on the basis of one >>> speech to a select audience >>>> in >>>>> New Delhi. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> With reference to >>> your point about borders: The >>>> GoI >>>>> acknowledges that >>>>>>> Kashmir is >>> an ³issue² between India and >>>> Pakistan. As I >>>>> have mentioned in my >>>>>>> >>> first post, it objects to the >>>> word ³dispute² as it >>>>> >>> internationalizes >>>>>>> Kashmir, ignores the Simla >>>> Agreement and takes it >>> out of >>>>> the domain of >>>>>>> bilateral talks back to >>>> the UN. If you want >>> my personal >>>>> opinion on this >>>>>>> (and I have argued on >>>> this list in >>> the past), I agree with >>>>> this stand. I >>>>>>> see the UN as a >>>> forum >>> where, sadly, world powers have >>>>> always manipulated >>>>>>> nations and >>>> it >>> certainly does not have the moral >>>>> standing after Iraq and >>>>>>> >>>> >>> Afghanistan to really mediate anywhere in the >>>>> world. India and >>>> >>> Pakistan >>>>>>> need to, and can settle the issue taking into >>>>> account >>> the >>>> wishes of all the >>>>>>> people of J&K as it stood in 1947. As I >>>>> >>> have argued >>>> in the past and as >>>>>>> Gen.Musharraf recently said on an >>> NDTV >>>>> interview >>>> that India and Pakistan >>>>>>> were very close to >>> drafting an agreement >>>>> based >>>> on his 4-point formula. >>>>>>> >>> Interestingly, various interpretations of >>>>> this >>>> 4-point formula were >>> thrown >>>>>>> up by all shades of political parties but >>>>> >>>> there was a >>> broad consensus on >>>>>>> this whether from the mainstream groups >>>> or >>>>> the >>> separatists. The only leader >>>>>>> that rejected this was Mr. >>>> Geelani >>> who >>>>> insisted that the Kashmir ³dispute² >>>>>>> be solved on the UN >>>> >>> Resolutions of >>>>> 1948! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As for borders themselves: what is >>> Europe >>>> today but a borderless >>>>> continent? >>>>>>> You critique the idea of >>> the >>>> nation-state and yet you want to >>>>> re-invent the >>>>>>> wheel by >>> supporting yet >>>> another nation-state in independent >>>>> Kashmir. Why, >>>>>>> >>> when a 21st c. >>>> solution in the 4-point formula, similar to >>>>> the form >>> and >>>>>>> content of >>>> the EU, could be in the making? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best >>>>> >>> wishes, >>>>>>> >>>> Sonia >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 22/10/10 8:10 PM, >>> "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" >>>>> >>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>> Dear Sonia, (don't worry Pawan, its >>>> a >>>>> lot less than '3000 >>> lines') >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I said - " I do not agree with >>>> much of >>>>> what >>> Geelani Saheb represents >>>>>>>> politically, or ideologically, >>>> but I >>> have >>>>> no hesitation in saying that what >>>>>>>> he >>>>>>>> said yesterday, >>>> >>> was surprising >>>>> for its gentleness, for its consideration, >>>>>>>> >>> for >>>>>>>> >>>> its moderation, even >>>>> for its liberality and open >>> heartedness." >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> What part of this sentence >>>>> seems to suggest >>> that I am 'aligning' with >>>> SAS >>>>>>>> Geelani. The 'I do not >>>>> agree with >>> much' does not seem to indicate >>>> alignment, >>>>>>>> or endorsement to >>>>> me. >>> The rest of the statement is a >>>> statement of fact. Were >>>>>>>> SAS Geelani >>> to >>>>> have said words that were >>>> inflammatory yesterday, I would not >>>>>>>> >>> have >>>>> hesitated to said that he >>>> had. Allow me to elaborate by way of >>> an >>>>>>>> >>>>> example >>>>>>>> - I have never >>>> been in agreement with the >>> political philosophy >>>>> of >>>>>>>> M.K.Gandhi, >>>>>>>> >>>> but I never make the >>> mistake of saying that my >>>>> disagreement with Gandhi >>>> (my >>>>>>>> refusal >>> to endorse Gandhian ideology and >>>>> what it means >>>> politically) >>> amounts >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> my failure to recognize >>>>> Gandhi's >>>> gentleness, >>> his consideration, his >>>>>>>> moderation, his liberality >>>>> and its >>>> open >>> heartedness. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I have been strongly critical Islamist >>>>> >>>> >>> politics, including on this forum, >>>>>>>> whenever I have considered it >>>>> >>>> >>> necessary to do so. That is one thing, and it >>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>> where I >>> would >>>>> >>>> differ from SAS Geelani, explicitly, categorically, unless >>> he >>>>>>>> makes a >>>>> >>>> statement, like the Mirwaiz did recently, abjuring an >>> 'Islamist >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>> future >>>>>>>> for Kashmir'. But to say that SAS >>> Geelani has never expressed >>>>> >>>> regret for the >>>>>>>> violence that rocked >>> even the pro-Azadi camp from >>>> within >>>>> is specious. >>>>>>>> Kashmiri >>>>>>>> >>> polticians of all hues routinely >>>> issue >>>>> condemnations of incidents >>> of >>>>>>>> terrorism, and targetted >>>> assasinations. >>>>> Geelani, to my >>> knowledge, has not >>>>>>>> been >>>>>>>> any >>>> exception. Eyewitnesses >>>>> speak >>> of seeing him weeping at Abdul Ghani >>>>>>>> >>>> Lone's >>>>>>>> funeral. I do >>> not >>>>> know, nor do I care, whether these tears >>>> were genuine. All >>>>>>>> >>> I >>>>>>>> am >>>>> saying is that if the man has not said >>>> that he celebrates >>> the assasins of>>>> >>>>> the elder Mirwaiz, or Abdul Ghani >>>> Lone, or the >>> attacks on Dr. Shameema >>>>> that >>>>>>>> you mention, then, it is >>>> unfair to >>> accuse him of 'Not Saying' the >>>>> 'not >>>>>>>> saying'. He condemns >>>> >>> assasinations. He does not celebrate the >>>>> assasin. This >>>>>>>> means that >>> he >>>> cannot be accused of being the source of the >>>>> assasination, >>>>>>>> >>> unless >>>> other concrete evidence is brought to bear upon the >>>>> >>> case. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You >>>> may be right when you say that SAS Geelani may be >>> saying >>>>> one thing in >>>>>>>> >>>> Delhi and another in Srinagar. I am not >>> here to judge the >>>>> sincerity, >>>> or >>>>>>>> lack >>>>>>>> of, or ambiguity, >>> of these statements. I think >>>>> >>>> politically, the significant >>>>>>>> thing >>> is that whatever he may have said >>>> in >>>>> the past, SAS Geelani, HAS >>> to >>>>>>>> speak >>>>>>>> a language today that is >>>> not >>>>> secterian. He may >>> have done so in the past. Let >>>>>>>> us remember that >>>> he was >>>>> an elected >>> member of the J&K assembly for more than >>>>>>>> one term >>>> in the past, >>>>> >>> and that means he had to swear fealty of some sort to >>>>>>>> >>>> the Indian >>>>> >>> constitution. Judging by this, we should be able to evaluate >>>> his >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>> 'Islamist' commitments in the light of his sometime loyalty to >>>> an >>>>> >>> apparently >>>>>>>> secular constitution. If the sake of argument, we say >>>> >>> that we >>>>> should take >>>>>>>> seriously what came 'after' as representing >>> the >>>> 'maturing' of >>>>> his position, >>>>>>>> then, if his avowedly >>> 'secterian' / >>>> Islamist / Pro-Pakistan >>>>> phase came after >>>>>>>> his phase >>> as an MLA of the >>>> J&K assembly, then, so too >>>>> has this 'current' >>>>>>>> >>> phase >>>>>>>> come >>>> 'after' his secterian posturing. I am >>>>> not the one who >>> needs to split >>>>>>>> >>>> these hairs, but clearly, if some emphasis >>>>> is >>> bieng given to chronology as >>>> a >>>>>>>> way of attributing the man's >>> politics >>>>> to the man's biography, then >>>> let's >>>>>>>> stay >>>>>>>> >>> consistent, and say, that if >>>>> the current SAS Geelani >>>> is saying things >>> that >>>>>>>> don't seem to require the >>>>> automatic assumption >>>> of an Isamic >>> state (which is >>>>>>>> what we would expect >>>>> from the 'old' >>>> Geelani, >>> then, we have every reason to >>>>>>>> take it as >>>>> seriously as when >>>> he >>> made his decision to abandon 'mainstream' >>>>>>>> electoral >>>>> politics in >>>> >>> Jammu and Kashmir for the hardline fringe. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Indeed, I >>>>> would >>> go >>>> so far as to say that as far as we are concerned, we >>>>>>>> >>> should >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>> assume, and hold him, and his followers, responsible to >>> the Œevolution¹>> >>>> of >>>>>>>> their statements, as they occur. If he goes >>> back on the broad, >>>>> >>>> liberal >>>>>>>> nature >>>>>>>> of a vision for Azad >>> kashmir (which, >>>> incidentally, >>>>> among other things, >>>>>>>> included the >>> somewhat whimsical >>>> detail of a provision >>>>> of compensation for >>>>>>>> >>> damages were a believing >>>> Muslim to damage a bottle of >>>>> alchohl of >>> a >>>>>>>> non-believer), then, we >>>> should hold him responsible for that >>>>> >>> regression. He >>>>>>>> made a speech >>>> that was refreshingly free of >>> Islamist >>>>> rhetoric yesterday, >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>> >>>> spoke in the broad >>> terms of 'Insaaniyat' - >>>>> Humanity. If Atal Behari >>>> Vajpayee >>>>>>>> can be >>> appreciated, as indeed he should >>>>> have been, for >>>> speaking in terms >>> of >>>>>>>> 'Insaaniyat' when it came to thinking >>>>> about the >>>> solution to >>> the question of >>>>>>>> Jammu and Kashmir, why could the >>>>> >>>> mainstream >>> media not pick up the fact that >>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>> least in stated >>>> terms, >>>>> >>> SAS Geelani was making as major a move, by invoking >>>>>>>> >>>> 'Insaaniyat' >>> over >>>>> secterian considerations, exactly as Vajpayee had >>>> done. >>>>>>>> >>> Recognizing this >>>>> does not require us to align with, or endorse, >>>> either >>> SAS >>>>>>>> Geelani, or >>>>> Atal Behari Vajpayee, it simply requires us to >>>> >>> register a fact >>>>>>>> that a >>>>> major move is in process. That politics >>> is >>>> being transformed, even as >>>>>>>> we >>>>> speak. I am amazed that this >>>> >>> recognition is being painted as 'alignment, >>>>>>>> >>>>> or >>>>>>>> endorsement'. >>> I >>>> am amazed that this recognition is not getting the >>>>> space I >>>>>>>> >>> think it >>>> deserves, simply as a NEWS story. SAS Geelani says he >>>>> wishes >>> India >>>>>>>> >>>> to >>>>>>>> be a strong country, a regional power, that he >>>>> >>> supports (in >>>> principle) a >>>>>>>> future permanent place for India on the >>> United >>>>> Natons >>>> Security Council, once >>>>>>>> Kashmir is liberated - in >>> other words, he >>>>> is >>>> saying, let us go, and we >>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>> stand >>> with you, dont you think >>>>> >>>> this is BIG news. That is what I was >>> trying >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> talk about. Trying >>>> to >>>>> talk about does not make >>> me a camp follower of SAS >>>>>>>> Geelani or any >>>> other >>>>> politician, in >>> India, Kashmir, or elsewhere. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> My sense is, >>>> the >>>>> movement >>> for Azadi in Kashmir has gone beyond the persona >>>>>>>> >>>> of >>>>>>>> SAS >>>>> >>> Geelani, and while he is universally respected for his >>>> integrity >>> and >>>>>>>> >>>>> incorruptability, his word is by no means, Œlaw¹. He, >>>> and >>> other leaders >>>>> like >>>>>>>> him, are being Œled¹ as much as they are >>>> >>> Œleading¹ the people they >>>>> claim to >>>>>>>> represent. Part of this >>> process >>>> means giving up the secterian >>>>> rhetoric that >>>>>>>> people in >>> Kashmir >>>> genuinely feel alienated by. We should >>>>> welcome this >>>>>>>> >>>> >>> development. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Now, I come to the views that he >>>>> holds >>> regarding >>>> independence and merger >>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>> Pakistan. He has >>> said, >>>>> including >>>> in his recent interview with Seema Mustafa >>>>>>>> that >>> he PERSONALLY >>>>> prefers >>>> accession to Pakistan, but that he is willing >>> to >>>>>>>> abide by >>>>> whatever >>>> the people of Jammu and Kashmir decide. I >>> do not think >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>> >>>>> the >>>> people of Jammu and Kashmir have a >>> future with Pakistan.So, I >>>>> >>>> disagree >>>>>>>> with SAS Geelani's personal >>> view. I strongly argue for a >>>>> >>>> demilitarized, >>>>>>>> independent, secular >>> Jammu and Kashmir. That makes me >>>>> >>>> someone who does not >>>>>>>> endorse >>> SAS Geelani's position. Let's look at >>>> thigns >>>>> this way, had this >>> been >>>>>>>> 1935, I would probably have not been >>>> in agreement >>>>> with M.K. >>> Gandhi's vision >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> what he thought the >>>> future of South >>>>> >>> Asia and India ought to be. But that >>>>>>>> does >>>>>>>> not >>>> mean that I >>> would >>>>> dismiss Gandhi as irrelevant, or someone to be >>>> mocked >>>>>>>> and >>> reviled. I >>>>> would engage with him politicially, as many >>>> currents in >>> India >>>>>>>> at that >>>>> time did. They were not uncritical of >>>> Gandhi (from >>> the left and the >>>>>>>> >>>>> right) but they knew that Gandhi's >>>> voice had a >>> certain resonance. I think>>>> >>>>> that >>>>>>>> the attitude that >>>> people >>> have towards SAS Geelani is not dissimilar. >>>>> They >>>>>>>> may >>>>>>>> not >>>> >>> agree with him on many counts, and most Kashmiris that >>>>> I know >>>> >>> personally >>>>>>>> would fit that description. But none would want to >>>>> >>> dismiss >>>> or demonize him. >>>>>>>> Primarily because of his unwillingness to >>> be an >>>>> >>>> occasional pawn in the hands >>>>>>>> of the >>> occupation. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I have yet >>>> to >>>>> come across an Indian >>> politician who is willing to say, on >>>>>>>> >>>> the >>>>>>>> >>>>> record, that he >>> PERSONALLY prefers that Jammu and Kashmir stay >>>> with >>>>> India, >>>>>>>> >>> but >>>>>>>> will respect whatever the people of Jammu and >>>> Kashmir >>>>> decide >>> in a free and >>>>>>>> fair plebiscite. If that were to be the >>>> case, then >>>>> >>> we would get much further >>>>>>>> than where we are today in >>>> Kashmir. I have >>> no >>>>> quarrel with those who want >>>>>>>> Kashmir to stay in >>>> India. Theirs >>> is a point >>>>> of view. It needs to be freely >>>>>>>> heard, freely >>>> debated, >>> and if is >>>>> convincing to the people of Jammu and >>>>>>>> Kashmir, >>>> best of >>> luck to those who >>>>> carry the day. What I am against is >>>>>>>> >>>> >>> maintaining Jammu and Kashmir as >>>>> parts of the Indian Union by force. >>>> >>> By >>>>>>>> violence. By occupation. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> Finally, I come to the >>> five >>>> points, and whether or not, sticking to the >>>>>>>> >>>>> point >>>>>>>> >>> about Kashmir >>>> being disputed is an obstacle. Lets face facts. >>>>> Kashmir >>> is a >>>>>>>> dispute. >>>> Every single map of the world that is not printed >>>>> >>> in India shows >>>>>>>> >>>> it, >>>>>>>> visually, as a disputed territory. That is >>> why >>>>> the Government of >>>> India has >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> put its silly ink >>> stamp on atlases. >>>>> That is why >>>> there is a United Nations >>>>>>>> Observer >>> group in Delhi, Islamabad >>>>> and >>>> Srinagar. United Nations observers >>>>>>>> >>> are >>>>>>>> present, in the same >>>> way, >>>>> in say Cyprus (another dispute) >>> Israel / >>>>>>>> Palestine, >>>>>>>> >>>> another dispute. >>>>> What is the big deal >>> in saying, yes, it is a dispute. >>>> Will >>>>>>>> India >>>>> disappear if the >>> public secret is admitted to? As far as I >>>> am >>>>>>>> >>>>> concerned >>>>>>>> >>> borders, and sovereignty, are less important than >>>> the lives of >>>>> people. >>> If >>>>>>>> discussing a border, and what it means, can >>>> be a method to >>>>> >>> save lives, then >>>>>>>> refusing to do so, is a crime. The >>>> Government of >>> India >>>>> can offer to >>>>>>>> 'discuss' >>>>>>>> - sovereignty over >>>> those >>> areas of the >>>>> India-Tibet border that were taken by >>>>>>>> force >>>> majeure >>> by British Imperial >>>>> power, but it will sacrifice the lives of >>>>>>>> >>>> >>> hundreds of thousands of people >>>>> in order to keep the fetish of the >>>> >>> Indian >>>>>>>> Union's soveriegnty and >>>>> integrity alive in the case of >>> Jammu >>>> and Kashmir. >>>>>>>> This policy seems to me >>>>> to be totally >>> criminal and >>>> misguided. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Borders are made by human >>>>> beings, >>> and can be changed >>>> by human beings. The >>>>>>>> geographical expression >>>>> >>> of the Union of India is >>>> not divinely ordained. >>>>>>>> Sensible people all >>> over >>>>> the world, understand >>>> that maps can change, and >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>> >>> they do change. >>>>> We hope that the >>>> map of China can someday be drawn >>> in >>>>>>>> Chinese >>>>>>>> school >>>>> text books >>>> without engulfing Tibet. If >>> that can be a reasonable >>>>>>>> >>>>> desire, >>>>>>>> >>>> and not be seen as an >>> 'obstruction', why should a similar desire >>>>> be seen >>>> as >>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>> >>> obstruction in the case of India and Jammu and >>>>> Kashmir. >>>> Arnab >>> Goswami >>>>>>>> repeatedly used the word 'splittist' yestyerday to >>>>> >>>> refer >>> to all those who >>>>>>>> were >>>>>>>> speaking at the meeting at the LTG >>>>> >>>> >>> yesterday. A word that is used by the >>>>>>>> Chinese government and the >>>> >>> Chinese >>>>> Communist Party whenever it refers to the >>>>>>>> Dalai Lama and >>> the >>>> movement for >>>>> a free Tibet. Are we (our government, >>>>>>>> >>> sections >>>>>>>> of >>>> our media) aping >>>>> the Chinese government and the >>> behemoth of the >>>> Chinese >>>>>>>> Communist Party in >>>>> aligning and >>> endorsing ourselves with the >>>> fetish of a man >>>>>>>> made fiction of >>>>> >>> sovereignty. I should hope that we >>>> can do better than that. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>> best >>>>> regards, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>> Shuddha >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> _________________________________________ >>>>>>> reader-list: an open >>>> >>> discussion >>>>> list on media and the city. >>>>>>> Critiques & >>> Collaborations >>>>>>> >>>> To subscribe: >>>>> send an email to >>> reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> subscribe >>>>>>> in the >>>>> subject >>> header. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe: >>>>> >>>> >>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>>>> List archive: >>>>> >>>> >>> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>> >>>> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >>>>>>> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >>>>>>> Raqs >>> Media >>>>> >>>> Collective >>>>>>> shuddha at sarai.net >>>>>>> >>> www.sarai.net >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> www.raqsmediacollective.net >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> _________________________________________ >>>>> reader-list: an open >>>> >>> discussion >>>>> list on media and the city. >>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>> >>> To >>>> subscribe: send >>>>> an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in >>>> the subject >>>>> header. >>>>> To unsubscribe: >>>>> >>>> >>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>> List archive: >>>>> >>>> >>> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> >>>> >>> ___________________________ >>>>> ______________ >>>> reader-list: an open >>>> >>> discussion list on media and the >>>>> city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> >>> To >>>> subscribe: send an email to >>>>> reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in >>>> the subject header. >>>> To >>>>> unsubscribe: >>>> >>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: >>>>> >>>> >>> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _____________________ >>>> ____________________ >>> reader-list: an open >>> discussion list on media and the >>>> city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To >>> subscribe: send an email to >>>> reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in >>> the subject header. >>> To >>>> unsubscribe: >>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: >>>> >>> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >>> >>> >> _____________________ >>> ____________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the >>> city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to >>> reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >> To >>> unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: >>> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From sonia.jabbar at gmail.com Tue Oct 26 18:10:46 2010 From: sonia.jabbar at gmail.com (SJabbar) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 18:10:46 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?iso-8859-1?q?Azadi=3A_The_Only_Way_=AD_Report_fro?= =?iso-8859-1?q?m_a_Turbulent_Few_Hours_in_Delhi?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sigh... Now how does one begin to answer this diatribe. Tell you what: you win, dude. OK? Khush raho. On 26/10/10 4:32 PM, "Aditya Raj Baul" wrote: > My name is Aditya Raj Baul. Just because I'm not famous like you, you can > allege that my real name is something else. This is offensive, to say the > least. Your pre-condition for dialogue with me proves my charge. If my > "real" identity matters to thsi conversation, as you claim it does, then > it means your response would depend on who I am. You would say one thing if I > were Praveen Swami, another if I were Dileep Padgaonkar, a third if I were the > India editor of The India, Australia, something completely different if I were > Masarat Alam, something more nuanced if I were Yasin Malik, something more > aggressive if I were SAS Geelani. You accuse me of not being Aditya Raj Baul. > Yet it is you who's afraid of being Sonia Jabbar. For all you know, may be > I'm you. I asked you: "I like it how Sonia Jabbar wants to hold Kashmir > hostage to history - to the histories of India and Pakistan, to the history of > what Geelani has or has not done, has or has not said. She does not think > history is irrelevant to today's people who want azadi today in > today's context - sorry, she says, India has signed the Simla agreement, > and Geelani is a fanatic. Thank you. Fair enough, I suppose. But will > she apply the same rigours of historical understanding to the Indian state and > its actions in Kashmir? Please?" I would be happy to clarify my question, if > only you'd ask me what about it you don't understand. But all you want to do > is be condescending, suspicious and irritable. Thanks but not thanks, Aditya > Raj Baul On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 4:22 PM, SJabbar > wrote: > Sorry, didn't mean to be.  Was just poking mild fun at your assumed > name. > I'd be very happy to have a serious conversation with you any time, > but it > would be nice if I knew whom I was addressing.  I'm really not > interested in > scoring debating points and this is what has been happening in > this forum > particularly with people with false identities. > Sincerely, > > Sonia > > > On 26/10/10 4:15 PM, "Aditya Raj Baul" > wrote: > >> You can be as contemptuous as you want. Doesn't take away from > your >> hypocrisy > > On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 4:10 PM, SJabbar > >> wrote: >> Oh whenever you want, dear boy, since > you believe in making >> history. >> Atilla D. Hun >> >> >> On 26/10/10 4:01 > PM, "Aditya Raj Baul" >> wrote: >> >>> My question > is: when will you make Rahul >> PM? >> >> On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 3:58 PM, >>> > SJabbar >> wrote: >>> Aditya Raj Baul, >>> What > exactly is >>> your question? >>> >> Sincerely, >>> Sonia Gandhi >>> >>> >>> > On 26/10/10 2:04 PM, "Aditya >>> Raj Baul" >> > wrote: >>> >>>> I like it how Sonia Jabbar >>> wants to >> hold Kashmir > hostage to history - >>> to the >>>> histories of India and >>> >> Pakistan, > to the history of what Geelani >>> has or has not >>>> done, has or >> has >>> > not said. She does not think history >>> is irrelevant to today's >>>> >> > people who >>> want azadi today in today's >>> context - sorry, she says, > India >> has >>>> signed >>> the Simla agreement, and >>> Geelani is a > fanatic. Thank you. >> Fair enough, >>>> I >>> suppose. But will she >>> apply > the same rigours of >> historical understanding >>> to >>>> the Indian > state >>> and its actions in >> Kashmir? Please? >>> >>> On Mon, Oct >>> 25, > 2010 at >>>> 9:53 AM, SJabbar >> wrote: >>>> Dear >>> > Shuddha, >>>> >>>> I think >>>> our >> differences have narrowed considerably > as you >>> continue to >>>> clarify >> your >>>> position.  Reading between > your lines, you seem >>> to think that >> I >>>> have a >>>> problem with your > engaging with Mr. Geelani or >>> that the >> problem was >>>> your >>>> > sharing a stage with him. I do not not.  In >>> >> politics there are no >>>> > pariahs. >>>>  If someone represents a >> constituency-- >>> no matter how > marginal-- >>>> that is >>>> part of the social >> fabric you cannot >>> > ignore it.  It may surprise you >>>> and >>>>  many on this >> list to know > that Mr. >>> Geelani and I have known each other >>>> >>>> since >> 1997 and > have extremely frank >>> and cordial relations. My problem was> >>>> >> with > the language of your report of >>> the meeting where your >> > enthusiasm >>>> >>>> (“tallest separatist leader,” he is >>> “NOT against >> > dialogue,” “all that they >>>> >>>> are asking for is the Right to >>> >> > self-determination”) masked a political >>>> >>>> reality that was far > more >>> >> complex and brutal.  However, you have since >>>> >>>> clarified > that you do >> not >>> endorse Mr. Geelani’s  politics and you > concede >>>> >>>> that he may >> well have >>> been playing to audiences in > Delhi,  bringing us more >>>> >>>> or >> less on the >>> same page except that > past experience has made me less >> likely >>>> >>>> to share >>> your belief > that someone like Mr. Geelani can be >> “USED” or that you >>>> >>>> can >>> >  “compel them to come to a degree of >> moderation in action, and > a >>>> >>>> >>> greater, more imaginative radicalism in >> terms of > conceptions.” >>>> >>>> I am >>> glad >>>> you agree that people and >> > groups, state and non-state actors who >>>> >>> have >>>> committed crimes > must >> stand trial and justice must be done, whether >>> it >>>> is >>>> SAS > Geelani, >> Yasin Malik, Syed Salahuddin or various army generals >>> who >>>> > have >>>> >> presided over rights abuses while they served in J&K. I have > in >>> this >>>> >> forum >>>> written of a Truth & Reconciliation Commission > modeled on the >>> >> South >>>> African >>>> experience that should follow > the final settlement on >>> >> J&K. >>>> >>>> I am also glad >>>> that you > agree with my point of the futility >> of >>> creating a >>>> new > nation-state >>>> in the form of an independent >> Kashmir ( “I >>> am not for > the >>>> moment saying and >>>> have never said that >> an independent >>> > Kashmir will be in any >>>> way a qualitative >>>> improvement >> (in terms of > a >>> state form) than an occupied >>>> Kashmir,”).  But you >>>> >> seem to > believe that >>> it is necessary because “ It may >>>> at least lead to >> > the >>>> withdrawal of the >>> reality of a brutal occupation.” By >>>> this > I >> assume your >>>> vision of regime >>> change means replacing one > democratic >>>> >> republic with another >>>> democratic >>> republic and not > an Islamic republic >> or a >>>> military state.  In >>>> which case >>> “the > reality of a brutal >> occupation” must >>>> mean the withdrawal of >>>> >>> > hundreds of thousands of >> uniformed men in J&K.  But >>>> do you really > need >>> to >>>> create a new >> nation-state in order to demilitarize >>>> > Kashmir? >>>> >>>> >>> From 1947 to >>>> >> 1989 India’s military presence was > restricted to the >>> borders >>>> and to the >> few >>>> garrisons of > Srinagar, Baramulla, Leh, Udhampur >>> and Poonch. >>>> >> Between 1989- >>>> > 1992 India was being seriously challenged on >>> the >> military >>>> front by > thousands >>>> of Kashmiri militants and Islamist >>> >> mujahideen.  The > troop >>>> surge only >>>> happened only around 1992-93 and >> the >>> Indian > military was only >>>> able to >>>> control the situation around >> 1995. > In >>> 1996 the situation was such >>>> that it >>>> was the first time in >> > 6 years it was >>> possible to hold elections and >>>> yet then >>>> as in > 2002 >> there were hundreds >>> of assassinations of political >>>> candidates > and >>>> >> ordinary workers of >>> political parties (the right to >>>> > self-determination >> is >>>> never extended to >>> this group). >>>> >>>> > Anyway, my point is that >> 500,000 or 700,000 >>>> troops were >>> not there > as a >>>> permanent fixture >> since 1947 and the ‘most >>>> militarized >>> > place in the world’ >>>> was not >> always so.  It is both desirable > and >>>> >>> possible to withdraw troops >> and >>>> it should be done in a > phased manner. >>>> >>>  Though I have been vocal >> in >>>> advocating this > since 2001, sadly, I believe >>> it >>>> will be linked >> to the final >>>> > settlement and will not happen before >>> because of >>>> the >> many sleeper > cells of >>>> militants that get activated the >>> moment there >> is >>>> > peace or at least as they >>>> say ‘normalcy’— as we have >>> seen in >> last > week’s >>>> encounter between troops and >>>> the JeM in Srinagar. >>>  BTW >> > Srinagar district was >>>> one of the districts being >>>> examined for > the >>> >> revocation of the Disturbed >>>> Areas Act.  This encounter > will >>>> make it >>> >> extremely difficult for the state >>>> government to > do so. >>>> >>>> >>>>  I am >> glad >>> you agree with me that the > 4-point >>>> formula can be a solution >> to >>>> the >>> vexed Kashmir issue, > however your reading >>>> of what went wrong >> and putting >>>> >>> the onus > of the failure of implementation >>>> squarely on >> New Delhi’s >>> > shoulder >>>> is wrong.  Yes, there were delays on New >>>> >> Delhi’s side, > but >>> those were not >>>> remarkable considering a political >>>> >> > consensus had to be >>> built within the >>>> country (I think it was in > 2008 >> during >>>> the Amarnath >>> Yatra that I explained >>>> the entire > process at >> length in this >>>> forum). >>>  Very simply what happened > was >>>> that the >> Lawyer’s Movement in >>>> Pakistan >>> overtook the > Kashmir process and once >>>> >> Mushrraf was ousted and >>>> Benazir >>> was > assassinated the country plunged >> into >>>> political turmoil and > the >>>> >>> Zaradari government was too weak to >> break from >>>> Pakistan’s > traditional >>> stand >>>> of the UN Resolutions. >>  Both Gen Kayani and > the >>>> ISI were not >>> comfortable >>>> with Musharraf’s >> radical > departure from tradition. >>>> Both >>> believe Pakistan’s >>>> best >> > interests are served by keeping the Kashmir pot >>>> >>> boiling, >> > maintaining >>>> India as ‘enemy no 1’, encouraging extremism in >>>> >>> >> > Afghanistan to maintain >>>> ‘strategic depth,’ and to scuttle any >> > influence >>>> >>> India may wield in >>>> Afghanistan.  So, as much as I > and >> many others would >>> like >>>> to see the 4-point >>>> formula being > at least >> discussed, under the >>> present >>>> Pakistani dispensation >>>> > it is highly >> unlikely. >>>> >>>> When you >>> advocate a plebiscite and you > believe that >>>> >> the azadi movement must >>>> be >>> peaceful then you > must also accommodate >> the >>>> possibility of a partitioned >>>> >>> J&K, > where large sections of Jammu >> and all of >>>> Ladakh would not vote > for >>>> >>> Pakistan (and under what UN >> Resolution would the >>>> option > of independence >>> be >>>> granted since NO UN >> Resolution holds that > option >>>> and no Kashmiri to >>> date has >>>> appealed >> to the UN to pass > a resolution to >>>> include the option?) >>> And how >>>> >> would you > persuade Pakistan to allow a >>>> plebiscite in areas under >>> >> their >>>> > control?  And what is your opinion of the >>>> vast region of >>> >> > Gilgit-Baltistan >>>> that by Pakistani law has been severed from >>>> the >> > state >>> of Jammu & Kashmir and >>>> where its citizens have NO > fundamental >>>> >> rights as >>> its constitutional status >>>> has not as > yet been >> determined? >>>> >>>> I am >>>> >>> asking these questions not to > score points but >> for us to locate what is >>>> >>>> >>> moral or desirable > within what is real and >> possible not just for >>> Kashmiris >>>> >>>> who > are but a small part of the >> state, but of all the people >>> of Jammu > & >>>> >>>> Kashmir. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >> > Sonia >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>> My question is, > what do we >> do >>>> next. I think that this means that the >>> people >>>>> > 'learn' to USE >> them, to >>>> compel them to come to a degree of >>> > moderation in >>>>> action, >> and a greater, >>>> more imaginative radicalism > in >>> terms of >> conceptions. >>>>> That is why, the >>>> current situation > in Kashmir, >>> where >> the 'Leaders' are being >>>>> 'Led' by people >>>> is > interesting to me. I >>> >> find it POSITIVE that they have to do >>>>> > flip-flops so >>>> often, from >>> >> Hartal-to-No Hartal- to Hartal again. > This shows >>>>> that they are >>>> NOT >>> >> running the street. Things are > unpredictable. The change in >>>>> the >>>> >>> >> 'temperature' of SAS > Geelani's statements may be as much due to the >>> >> fact >>>>> >>>> that he > is no longer in a position to call all the shots. >>> >> Therefore, he > has >>>>> >>>> less to lose by 'changing' his tenor. >>>>> >>>>> >> There >>> > is a way in which the >>>> language of politics has changed, and it >> > has >>>>> >>> changed because of the way in >>>> which people are > communicating >> on all sorts >>> of >>>>> fora. Though they may, out >>>> of > affection, still say >> that only Geelani >>> will do >>>>> the Tarjumani, the > truth >>>> is, everyone is >> doing their own >>> Tarjumani now. and >>>>> > that is the hardest nut >>>> for the >> Government of India >>> to crack. As > an anarchist, >>>>> I find this >>>> >> situation, of the actual, >>> > concrete, refusal of 'representational >>>>> forms >> of >>>> politics' . > however >>> ephemeral it might be at present, quite >>>>> >> delightful. > SO >>>> much so, that a >>> 'theatre' of leadership continues, >> but >>>>> > actuality presumes a >>>> totally >>> different language of >> > politics. >>>>> >>>>> I find this a fertile situation, >>>> >>> one latent > with >> possibilities, for everyone. >>>>> >>>>> As for your other >>> > point, >>>> about >> how close we all were to the beginnings of the >>>>> long > road >>> towards a >>>> >> solution with Musharraf's four point formula - I > agree >>>>> with >>> you. But, >> then, >>>> it was the Government of India > that scuttled that >>>>> >>> >> possibility. If the >>>> government of India > had acted then, on what was on >>> >> offer, >>>>> perhaps things >>>> would > not have come to the situation where >> they >>> are at present. >>>>> Too > much >>>> has gone wrong since then. I am not >> a >>> nationalist of any > sort, and to >>>>> me, >>>> ALL nation states, and all >> nation >>> states in > waiting,  are ultimately the>> >>>> actors of the tragedies >> of their >>> > own making and choosing, >>>>> So, basically, I >>>> am not for the >> moment > saying >>> and have never said that an >>>>> independent >>>> Kashmir will >> > be in any way a >>> qualitative improvement (in terms of >>>>> a state >>>> > form) >> than an occupied >>> Kashmir, but, It may at least lead to > the >>>>> >> withdrawal >>>> of the reality of >>> a brutal > occupation. >>>>> >>>>> For me, >> whatever makes that >>>> possible, I am >>> > prepared to accept. There were, >> and >>>>> remain many >>>> possibilities > that span >>> the spectrum from where >> the situation is >>>>> at > present >>>> to Indpendence or >>> accession to >> Pakistan. But thinking > about those >>>>> >>>> possibilities require >>> all >> Indians to stop > thinking only out of the Indian>> >>>> nationalist box. You >>> >> know very > well, that many different kinds of >>>> arrangement >>>>> could >> have >>> > been explored. including maximum autonomy under the >>>> aegis of >> a >>>>> > joint >>> India-Pakistan guarantee, which is what I understand the >>>> >> > Musharraf >>>>> >>> formula to have been, But the bottom line is, whatever > is >> worked >>>> out has to >>> be >>>>> acceptable to the popular will, > hence a >> plebiscite with many >>>> options >>> on offer, >>>>> and the > freedom to campaign >> for the many options in an >>>> >>> atomsphere free > of >>>>> coercion. >>>>> >>>>> >> Realistically speaking, I do not >>> > think >>>> that the Government of India has >> the >>>>> imagination any > longer to >>> try and >>>> think out of the box. If it >> can, that > would >>>>> be great. But, >>> going by the >>>> ostrich like attitude >> of > the Government in the >>>>> face of the >>> obvious >>>> alienation of the >> > Kashmiri people, I very much doubt it. >>>>> If >>> they had that >>>> >> > intelligence, they could have stopped the killings by the >>>>> >>> > security >> forces a >>>> long time ago. >>>>> >>>>> Therefore, the only > remaining >>> >> possibility for ending the >>>> occupation seems to >>>>> me > to be >> independence >>> for Kashmir, in the short term, >>>> under the >> > custodianship >>>>> of the United >>> Nations, like happened in > Kosovo.Of >>>> >> course, I strongly assert >>>>> that the >>> political road > to this must be >> through >>>> non-violent means, through >>>>> mass >>> > political participation, >> of as many >>>> different sections of the >>> > population >>>>> as possible. It >> will be painful, for >>>> many Indians to > accept, >>> but in the long >>>>> term, >> and in the absence of any >>>> > other imaginative >>> solutions thought through >> by >>>>> the Indian > political elites >>>> (that chance >>> has come, and sadly, >> gone) it will > be >>>>> in the best interests of >>>> the >>> people of India. Of >> course, > the challenge for the >>>>> people of Kashmir >>>> >>> would be to think >> > through a vision of independence that does >>>>> not have >>> them >>>> > switch >> slavery to Indian occupation to slavery to the > Pakistani >>>>> >>> >> militarist >>>> elite. The challenge would be to come > up with proposals for >>> >> a >>>>> >>>> demilitarized, non-aggressive > Kashmir that can preserve its >> cultural >>> and >>>>> >>>> social openness > and liberality, that can take back >> displaced >>> minorities, >>>> and >>>>> > can offer them genuine, not token safety >> and security. >>> That is the > hard >>>> work >>>>> that imaginative politics will >> have to undertake >>> > in Kashmir. And we >>>> should >>>>> never stop expecting >> and demanding > that from >>> all our Kashmiri >>>> friends. I >>>>> never, ever >> cease > doing so. >>>>> >>>>>  In the >>> long term, this fact, >>>> an Independent >> > Kashmir, could actually be the >>>>> >>> cornerstone of a broad South >>>> > Asian >> Union (modelled on the EU) which >>> could >>>>> bring the > different >>>> >> nationalities (there may be many by then) of >>> South > Asia >>>>> under an >>>> >> arrangement of a free trade zone, a visa free > zone, >>> a customs and >>>>> >> tarrifs >>>> union, a charter on shared > ecological concerns, >>> and >> comprehensive >>>>> >>>> demilitarization. An > independent Kashmir may be the >>> >> first step in that >>>>> >>>> direction. > Of course this need not happen. >> Things >>> could get worse if >>>> > Kashmir >>>>> separates. I am well aware and >> cognizant of >>> that > possibility. But, >>>> at least, >>>>> once the dust and >> din settles, in > our >>> lifetime, there is a >>>> likelihood that >>>>> once >> everyone has > climbed off >>> their nationalist high >>>> horses, things might >> be >>>>> > worked out, amicably and >>> reasonably between all the >>>> stake >> holders > of a future >>>>> free association >>> of South Asian States and >>>> >> > Territories. That, I think is the >>>>> only >>> guarantee for peace in our >> > region. I >>>> know for certain that an India and >>>>> >>> Pakistan that >> > continue to hold on to >>>> their respective fragments of Jammu >>> > and >>>>> >> Kashmir, and an India that enforces >>>> that occupation by > military >>> force >> cannot >>>>> contribute to peace in the >>>> > region. >>>>> >>>>> That is why, I >>> >> think that freedom for Kashmir, and > also, >>>> incidentally for >>>>> Tibet, >> is >>> key to long term peace and > stability in Asia, >>>> because both >> these >>>>> >>> developments would > reduce the necessity of the big >>>> poweres >> of tomorrow - >>> China >>>>> > and India and to a lesser extent - Pakistan >>>> >> from being aggressive >>> > nuclear >>>>> powered rivals, and would perhaps, >> perhaps, >>>> open out the > true >>> possibility of >>>>> what a worthwhile Asian >> Century really >>>> > ought to be like. >>> Otherwise, I am >>>>> afraid that we >> will replay the > disasters >>>> of the >>> European history of the >>>>> Twentieth >> Century, > from the First World War >>>> >>> onwards, on the soil of Twenty >>>>> >> > First Century Asia. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I hope i >>> have >>>> made myself >> > clear >>>>> >>>>> best, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>> >> > Shuddha >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On >>>> 23-Oct-10, at > 7:45 PM, >> SJabbar >>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Sorry for cross-posting but I >>>> > sent this >> message out in the >>> morning as a >>>>>> response to Shuddha¹s > 2nd post >>>> >> but received an automated >>> email saying my >>>>>> post had > to be reviewed by >> the >>>> moderator.  Since I >>> haven¹t received > a >>>>>> response (Monica??!) I >> assume it >>>> was not approved >>> or got > lost in the vast >>>>>> belly of the >> Sarai computer! >>>>>> >>>> >>> >> > ------------------------------------- >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Shuddha, let us >> > take >>> your >>>> arguments and apply them to the other side.  Modi >>>>>> >> > belongs to a >>> political >>>> party that was in power and he was at the > helm >> when >>>>>> the 2002 >>> Gujarat >>>> carnage took place.  He may not > have >> explicitly directed it >>>>>> >>> but he >>>> certainly presided over > the >> violence.  What Modi is like as a >>> person, >>>>>> >>>> whether he is > gentle, >> cultured, cries at the funeral of his >>> friends or > his >>>>>> >>>> rivals are >> of no concern to me  (It is well known that >>> > Goebbels was a >>>>>> >>>> >> cultured man and had a refined taste in music > and the >>> arts and of >> course >>>>>> >>>> Jinnah ate ham sandwiches). What > matters to me is >>> that the >> man presided >>>> over >>>>>> the worst kind > of violence and has refused >>> to, >> till date, condemn >>>> it >>>>>> > unambiguously.  Instead he and his party >>> >> continue to cite the >>>> > economic >>>>>> progress of Muslims in Gujarat to >>> >> counter it.  The > subtext of >>>> this‹ and this >>>>>> is a South Asian >> disease‹ >>> is let > us forget the past, >>>> galtiyan dono taraf se >>>>>> huin >> hain >>> > (³action-reaction²), and let us move on. >>>>  Whether it is the >>>>>> >> > various >>> political parties in India who have incited, >>>> controlled > and >> presided >>>>>> >>> over the worst communal or sectarian violence > from >>>> the >> 1930¹s to the >>> present >>>>>> day, or the Pakistani army > role in the mass >>>> >> rapes of >>> Bangladesh or the Sri >>>>>> Lankan > army¹s role against Tamil >> civilians, >>>> >>> every political party in > these >>>>>> countries seem to be >> inflicted by the >>> same >>>> > disease. >>>>>> Having said that, I believe it is >> the role of civil >>> > society to be >>>> vigilant, >>>>>> to be rigorous, to not >> succumb to the > same >>> logic. >>>>>> >>>>>> I know >>>> that you have been >> critical of > fundamentalist >>> politics in this forum >>>>>> and >>>> others, >> whether > it is Hindutva or Islamist >>> and that is why it surprised >>>>>> >> me >>>> > to read your post on the LTG event. >>>  You say ³You may be right when >> > you>>> >>>> say that SAS Geelani may be saying >>> one thing in Delhi and >> > another in >>>>>> >>>> Srinagar.  I am not here to judge >>> the sincerity, > or >> lack of,  or >>>> ambiguity, >>>>>> of these statements.²  Why >>> are > you not >> here to judge the >>>> sincerity or lack >>>>>> thereof of > these >>> statements? >>  Surely, one is always >>>> judging political >>>>>> > parties when they >>> claim >> one or another thing?  How does >>>> one align > oneself >>>>>> politically if >>> >> one goes simply by manifestos and not > by >>>> actions?  Judging >>>>>> and >>> >> evaluating is a constant process. >  Mamta Bannerjee >>>> may have been >> one >>>>>> >>> thing as a member of the > opposition but how will she be >>>> when >> she comes >>> to >>>>>> power? >  One reads her statements, one watches >> carefully >>>> her >>> > actions >>>>>> following her statements.  If they don¹t >> gel, we believe > her >>>> >>> to be >>>>>> insincere. >>>>>> >>>>>> You write: ³I am >> amazed > that this recognition >>> is >>>> not getting the space I >>>>>> think it >> > deserves, simply as a NEWS story. >>> ³ Do >>>> you remember Atal > Behari >>>>>> >> Vajpayee shed tears after the demolition >>> of the >>>> > Babri Masjid and >> Advani >>>>>> described it as ³the saddest day of his >>> > life.² >>>> Should >> these isolated moments >>>>>> and statements be > highlighted and >>> >> privileged >>>> as representing the 2 men¹s >>>>>> > position on the Babri Masjid >> or >>> should one >>>> judge them over a > longer period >>>>>> of time, weighing >> their >>> statements and >>>> their > actions? >>>>>> >>>>>> As for Mr. Geelani and >> evaluating >>> his actions, > do you >>>> believe a responsible >>>>>> leader ought >> to lead from >>> the > front or give calls to >>>> his followers to engage >>>>>> >> in actions > that >>> will cause injury or even death >>>> from the safety of his >> > home? >>>>>> Mr. >>> Geelani is fully aware that in any part >>>> of this > planet >> if you pelt >>>>>> >>> stones at a man with a gun, there is a > fair >>>> chance >> that the man with the >>> gun >>>>>> is going to > retaliate.  When he was >>>> >> released from jail he made a >>> fine >>>>>> > statement calling for the end of >> the >>>> hartaal calendar, saying >>> that > this was >>>>>> not the way forward, >> that these >>>> protests could not > be >>> sustained, that life >>>>>> could not >> come to a standstill >>>> > (btw, the Sopore >>> fruit mandi, his >>>>>> >> constituency, continued to > function >>>> through this >>> entire period >> hartaal >>>>>> calendar or > not).  These were wise >>>> words from a >>> man who >> has been in > politics >>>>>> for years.  Wise words or the >>>> thinking of >>> >> the ISI, > I¹m not sure because the >>>>>> words were echoed by Syed >>>> >>> >> > Salahuddin.  What follows is interesting: >>>>>> Salahuddin¹s effigy is >> > burnt >>> and >>>> a rumour is floated that Mr. Geelani is >>>>>> selling out > to >> Omar >>> Abdullah. >>>>  Does Mr. Geelani stand by his words?  Does > he >>>>>> do >> what >>> Gandhi does after >>>> Chauri Chaura?  No, of course > not.  He does >> a >>>>>> total >>> U-turn and starts >>>> competing with > Masrat Alam on the >> calendars, >>>>>> >>> subjecting the people of the >>>> > valley to more misery. >>  What do ordinary >>>>>> >>> Kashmiris feel about > the >>>> continuation of this >> absurd form of protest >>> where >>>>>> they > and not the >>>> Government of India >> suffer?  You may find the >>> answer > in the >>>>>> fact that >>>> there was not a >> single protest when Masrat >>> > Alam was arrested. >>>>>> >>>>>> Again >>>> Mr. >> Geelani saying he > Œpersonally¹ >>> favours the accession to Pakistan >>>>>> >> but >>>> will > Œabide by¹ what the people >>> of J&K want is neither here nor >> > there. >>>>>> >>>> What you see as a maturing >>> position may be read as > an >> opportunistic one >>>>>> >>>> until such time as it is >>> tested.  As I > have >> already shown in my last post >>>>>> >>>> Mr. Geelani, his >>> > political party >> and his ideology have since the mid-90¹s >>>>>> >>>> shown > no such >>> respectful >> accommodation of the political views of others. >>>> >  In >>>>>> fact >>> any >> divergence from this view has been silenced by the > bullet. >>>>  If >>> >> this >>>>>> is someone¹s history‹ and as much as I > should wish it >> otherwise-- >>>> >>> it is >>>>>> very, very difficult for > me to suspend my >> cynicism and turn >>>> >>> enthusiastic >>>>>> cartwheels > on the basis of one >> speech to a select audience >>> in >>>> New > Delhi. >>>>>> >>>>>> With reference to >> your point about borders:  The >>> > GoI >>>> acknowledges that >>>>>> Kashmir is >> an ³issue² between India > and >>> Pakistan.  As I >>>> have mentioned in my >>>>>> >> first post, it > objects to the >>> word ³dispute² as it >>>> >> internationalizes >>>>>> > Kashmir, ignores the Simla >>> Agreement and takes it >> out of >>>> the > domain of >>>>>> bilateral talks back to >>> the UN.  If you want >> my > personal >>>> opinion on this >>>>>> (and I have argued on >>> this list in >> > the past), I agree with >>>> this stand.  I >>>>>> see the UN as a >>> > forum >> where, sadly, world powers have >>>> always manipulated >>>>>> > nations and >>> it >> certainly does not have the moral >>>> standing after > Iraq and >>>>>> >>> >> Afghanistan to really mediate anywhere in the >>>> > world.  India and >>> >> Pakistan >>>>>> need to, and can settle the issue > taking into >>>> account >> the >>> wishes of all the >>>>>> people of J&K as > it stood in 1947.  As I >>>> >> have argued >>> in the past and as >>>>>> > Gen.Musharraf recently said on an >> NDTV >>>> interview >>> that India and > Pakistan >>>>>> were very close to >> drafting an agreement >>>> based >>> on > his 4-point formula. >>>>>> >> Interestingly, various interpretations of >>>> > this >>> 4-point formula were >> thrown >>>>>> up by all shades of political > parties but >>>> >>> there was a >> broad consensus on >>>>>> this whether > from the mainstream groups >>> or >>>> the >> separatists.  The only > leader >>>>>> that rejected this was Mr. >>> Geelani >> who >>>> insisted that > the Kashmir ³dispute² >>>>>> be solved on the UN >>> >> Resolutions of >>>> > 1948! >>>>>> >>>>>> As for borders themselves: what is >> Europe >>> today but > a borderless >>>> continent? >>>>>> You critique the idea of >> the >>> > nation-state and yet you want to >>>> re-invent the >>>>>> wheel by >> > supporting yet >>> another nation-state in independent >>>> Kashmir. >  Why, >>>>>> >> when a 21st c. >>> solution in the 4-point formula, similar > to >>>> the form >> and >>>>>> content of >>> the EU, could be in the > making? >>>>>> >>>>>> Best >>>> >> wishes, >>>>>> >>> > Sonia >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 22/10/10 8:10 PM, >> "Shuddhabrata > Sengupta" >>>> >>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >> Dear > Sonia, (don't worry Pawan, its >>> a >>>> lot less than '3000 >> > lines') >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I said - " I do not agree with >>> much of >>>> > what >> Geelani Saheb represents >>>>>>> politically, or ideologically, >>> > but I >> have >>>> no hesitation in saying that what >>>>>>> he >>>>>>> said > yesterday, >>> >> was surprising >>>> for its gentleness, for its > consideration, >>>>>>> >> for >>>>>>> >>> its moderation, even >>>> for its > liberality and open >> heartedness." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>> What part of this > sentence >>>> seems to suggest >> that I am 'aligning' with >>> SAS >>>>>>> > Geelani. The 'I do not >>>> agree with >> much' does not seem to indicate >>> > alignment, >>>>>>> or endorsement to >>>> me. >> The rest of the statement is > a >>> statement of fact. Were >>>>>>> SAS Geelani >> to >>>> have said words > that were >>> inflammatory yesterday, I would not >>>>>>> >> have >>>> > hesitated to said that he >>> had. Allow me to elaborate by way of >> > an >>>>>>> >>>> example >>>>>>> - I have never >>> been in agreement with > the >> political philosophy >>>> of >>>>>>> M.K.Gandhi, >>>>>>> >>> but I > never make the >> mistake of saying that my >>>> disagreement with Gandhi >>> > (my >>>>>>> refusal >> to endorse Gandhian ideology and >>>> what it means >>> > politically) >> amounts >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> my failure to recognize >>>> > Gandhi's >>> gentleness, >> his consideration, his >>>>>>> moderation, his > liberality >>>> and its >>> open >> heartedness. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>  I have been > strongly critical Islamist >>>> >>> >> politics, including on this > forum, >>>>>>> whenever I have considered it >>>> >>> >> necessary to do so. > That is one thing, and it >>>>>>> is >>>>>>> where I >> would >>>> >>> differ > from SAS Geelani, explicitly, categorically, unless >> he >>>>>>> makes > a >>>> >>> statement, like the Mirwaiz did recently, abjuring an >> > 'Islamist >>>>>>> >>>> >>> future >>>>>>> for Kashmir'. But to say that SAS >> > Geelani has never expressed >>>> >>> regret for the >>>>>>> violence that > rocked >> even the pro-Azadi camp from >>> within >>>> is specious. >>>>>>> > Kashmiri >>>>>>> >> polticians of all hues routinely >>> issue >>>> > condemnations of incidents >> of >>>>>>> terrorism, and targetted >>> > assasinations. >>>> Geelani, to my >> knowledge, has not >>>>>>> been >>>>>>> > any >>> exception. Eyewitnesses >>>> speak >> of seeing him weeping at Abdul > Ghani >>>>>>> >>> Lone's >>>>>>> funeral. I do >> not >>>> know, nor do I > care, whether these tears >>> were genuine. All >>>>>>> >> I >>>>>>> am >>>> > saying is that if the man has not said >>> that he celebrates >> the assasins > of>>>> >>>> the elder Mirwaiz, or Abdul Ghani >>> Lone, or the >> attacks on > Dr. Shameema >>>> that >>>>>>> you mention, then, it is >>> unfair to >> > accuse him of 'Not Saying' the >>>> 'not >>>>>>> saying'. He condemns >>> >> > assasinations. He does not celebrate the >>>> assasin. This >>>>>>> means > that >> he >>> cannot be accused of being the source of the >>>> > assasination, >>>>>>> >> unless >>> other concrete evidence is brought to bear > upon the >>>> >> case. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>  You >>> may be right when you say that > SAS Geelani may be >> saying >>>> one thing in >>>>>>> >>> Delhi and another > in Srinagar.  I am not >> here to judge the >>>> sincerity, >>> or >>>>>>> > lack >>>>>>> of,  or ambiguity, >> of these statements. I think >>>> >>> > politically, the significant >>>>>>> thing >> is that whatever he may have > said >>> in >>>> the past, SAS Geelani, HAS >> to >>>>>>> speak >>>>>>> a > language today that is >>> not >>>> secterian. He may >> have done so in the > past. Let >>>>>>> us remember that >>> he was >>>> an elected >> member of the > J&K assembly for more than >>>>>>> one term >>> in the past, >>>> >> and that > means he had to swear fealty of some sort to >>>>>>> >>> the Indian >>>> >> > constitution. Judging by this, we should be able to evaluate >>> > his >>>>>>> >>>> >> 'Islamist' commitments in the light of his sometime > loyalty to >>> an >>>> >> apparently >>>>>>> secular constitution. If the sake > of argument, we say >>> >> that we >>>> should take >>>>>>> seriously what > came 'after' as representing >> the >>> 'maturing' of >>>> his > position, >>>>>>> then, if his avowedly >> 'secterian' / >>> Islamist / > Pro-Pakistan >>>> phase came after >>>>>>> his phase >> as an MLA of the >>> > J&K assembly, then, so too >>>> has this 'current' >>>>>>> >> phase >>>>>>> > come >>> 'after' his secterian posturing. I am >>>> not the one who >> needs > to split >>>>>>> >>> these hairs, but clearly, if some emphasis >>>> is >> > bieng given to chronology as >>> a >>>>>>> way of attributing the man's >> > politics >>>> to the man's biography, then >>> let's >>>>>>> stay >>>>>>> >> > consistent, and say, that if >>>> the current SAS Geelani >>> is saying > things >> that >>>>>>> don't seem to require the >>>> automatic assumption >>> > of an Isamic >> state (which is >>>>>>> what we would expect >>>> from the > 'old' >>> Geelani, >> then, we have every reason to >>>>>>> take it as >>>> > seriously as when >>> he >> made his decision to abandon 'mainstream' >>>>>>> > electoral >>>> politics in >>> >> Jammu and Kashmir for the hardline > fringe. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Indeed, I >>>> would >> go >>> so far as to say that > as far as we are concerned, we >>>>>>> >> should >>>>>>> >>>> >>> assume, and > hold him, and his followers, responsible to >> the Œevolution¹>> >>> > of >>>>>>> their statements, as they occur. If he goes >> back on the > broad, >>>> >>> liberal >>>>>>> nature >>>>>>> of a vision for Azad >> kashmir > (which, >>> incidentally, >>>> among other things, >>>>>>> included the >> > somewhat whimsical >>> detail of a provision >>>> of compensation > for >>>>>>> >> damages were a believing >>> Muslim to damage a bottle of >>>> > alchohl of >> a >>>>>>> non-believer), then, we >>> should hold him > responsible for that >>>> >> regression. He >>>>>>> made a speech >>> that was > refreshingly free of >> Islamist >>>> rhetoric yesterday, >>>>>>> > that >>>>>>> >>> spoke in the broad >> terms of 'Insaaniyat' - >>>> Humanity. > If Atal Behari >>> Vajpayee >>>>>>> can be >> appreciated, as indeed he > should >>>> have been, for >>> speaking in terms >> of >>>>>>> 'Insaaniyat' > when it came to thinking >>>> about the >>> solution to >> the question > of >>>>>>> Jammu and Kashmir, why could the >>>> >>> mainstream >> media not > pick up the fact that >>>>>>> at >>>>>>> least in stated >>> terms, >>>> >> > SAS Geelani was making as major a move, by invoking >>>>>>> >>> > 'Insaaniyat' >> over >>>> secterian considerations, exactly as Vajpayee > had >>> done. >>>>>>> >> Recognizing this >>>> does not require us to align > with, or endorse, >>> either >> SAS >>>>>>> Geelani, or >>>> Atal Behari > Vajpayee, it simply requires us to >>> >> register a fact >>>>>>> that a >>>> > major move is in process. That politics >> is >>> being transformed, even > as >>>>>>> we >>>> speak. I am amazed that this >>> >> recognition is being > painted as 'alignment, >>>>>>> >>>> or >>>>>>> endorsement'. >> I >>> am > amazed that this recognition is not getting the >>>> space I >>>>>>> >> think > it >>> deserves, simply as a NEWS story. SAS Geelani says he >>>> wishes >> > India >>>>>>> >>> to >>>>>>> be a strong country, a regional power, that > he >>>> >> supports (in >>> principle) a >>>>>>> future permanent place for > India on the >> United >>>> Natons >>> Security Council, once >>>>>>> Kashmir > is liberated   - in >> other words, he >>>> is >>> saying, let us go, and > we >>>>>>> will >>>>>>> stand >> with you, dont you think >>>> >>> this is BIG > news. That is what I was >> trying >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> talk about. Trying >>> > to >>>> talk about does not make >> me a camp follower of SAS >>>>>>> Geelani > or any >>> other >>>> politician, in >> India, Kashmir, or > elsewhere. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My sense is, >>> the >>>> movement >> for Azadi in > Kashmir has gone beyond the persona >>>>>>> >>> of >>>>>>> SAS >>>> >> > Geelani, and while he is universally respected for his >>> integrity >> > and >>>>>>> >>>> incorruptability, his word is by no means, Œlaw¹. He, >>> > and >> other leaders >>>> like >>>>>>> him, are being Œled¹ as much as they > are >>> >> Œleading¹ the people they >>>> claim to >>>>>>> represent. Part of > this >> process >>> means giving up the secterian >>>> rhetoric that >>>>>>> > people in >> Kashmir >>> genuinely feel alienated by. We should >>>> welcome > this >>>>>>> >>> >> development. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Now, I come to the views that > he >>>> holds >> regarding >>> independence and merger >>>>>>> with >>>>>>> > Pakistan. He has >> said, >>>> including >>> in his recent interview with > Seema Mustafa >>>>>>> that >> he PERSONALLY >>>> prefers >>> accession to > Pakistan, but that he is willing >> to >>>>>>> abide by >>>> whatever >>> the > people of Jammu and Kashmir decide. I >> do not think >>>>>>> > that >>>>>>> >>>> the >>> people of Jammu and Kashmir have a >> future with > Pakistan.So, I >>>> >>> disagree >>>>>>> with SAS Geelani's personal >> view. > I strongly argue for a >>>> >>> demilitarized, >>>>>>> independent, secular >> > Jammu and Kashmir. That makes me >>>> >>> someone who does not >>>>>>> > endorse >> SAS Geelani's position. Let's look at >>> thigns >>>> this way, had > this >> been >>>>>>> 1935, I would probably have not been >>> in > agreement >>>> with M.K. >> Gandhi's vision >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> what he thought > the >>> future of South >>>> >> Asia and India ought to be. But that >>>>>>> > does >>>>>>> not >>> mean that I >> would >>>> dismiss Gandhi as irrelevant, > or someone to be >>> mocked >>>>>>> and >> reviled. I >>>> would engage with > him politicially, as many >>> currents in >> India >>>>>>> at that >>>> time > did. They were not uncritical of >>> Gandhi (from >> the left and > the >>>>>>> >>>> right) but they knew that Gandhi's >>> voice had a >> certain > resonance. I think>>>> >>>> that >>>>>>> the attitude that >>> people >> have > towards SAS Geelani is not dissimilar. >>>> They >>>>>>> may >>>>>>> > not >>> >> agree with him on many counts, and most Kashmiris that >>>> I > know >>> >> personally >>>>>>> would fit that description. But none would want > to >>>> >> dismiss >>> or demonize him. >>>>>>> Primarily because of his > unwillingness to >> be an >>>> >>> occasional pawn in the hands >>>>>>> of > the >> occupation. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>  I have yet >>> to >>>> come across an > Indian >> politician who is willing to say, on >>>>>>> >>> the >>>>>>> >>>> > record, that he >> PERSONALLY prefers that Jammu and Kashmir stay >>> > with >>>> India, >>>>>>> >> but >>>>>>> will respect whatever the people of > Jammu and >>> Kashmir >>>> decide >> in a free and >>>>>>> fair plebiscite. If > that were to be the >>> case, then >>>> >> we would get much further >>>>>>> > than where we are today in >>> Kashmir. I have >> no >>>> quarrel with those > who want >>>>>>> Kashmir to stay in >>> India. Theirs >> is a point >>>> of > view. It needs to be freely >>>>>>> heard, freely >>> debated, >> and if > is >>>> convincing to the people of Jammu and >>>>>>> Kashmir, >>> best of >> > luck to those who >>>> carry the day. What I am against is >>>>>>> >>> >> > maintaining Jammu and Kashmir as >>>> parts of the Indian Union by > force. >>> >> By >>>>>>> violence. By occupation. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>> > Finally, I come to the >> five >>> points, and whether or not, sticking to > the >>>>>>> >>>> point >>>>>>> >> about Kashmir >>> being disputed is an > obstacle. Lets face facts. >>>> Kashmir >> is a >>>>>>> dispute. >>> Every > single map of the world that is not printed >>>> >> in India shows >>>>>>> >>> > it, >>>>>>> visually, as a disputed territory. That is >> why >>>> the > Government of >>> India has >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> put its silly ink >> stamp on > atlases. >>>> That is why >>> there is a United Nations >>>>>>> Observer >> > group in Delhi, Islamabad >>>> and >>> Srinagar. United Nations > observers >>>>>>> >> are >>>>>>> present, in the same >>> way, >>>> in say > Cyprus (another dispute) >> Israel / >>>>>>> Palestine, >>>>>>> >>> another > dispute. >>>> What is the big deal >> in saying, yes, it is a dispute. >>> > Will >>>>>>> India >>>> disappear if the >> public secret is admitted to? As > far as I >>> am >>>>>>> >>>> concerned >>>>>>> >> borders, and sovereignty, > are less important than >>> the lives of >>>> people. >> If >>>>>>> discussing > a border, and what it means, can >>> be a method to >>>> >> save lives, > then >>>>>>> refusing to do so, is a crime. The >>> Government of >> > India >>>> can offer to >>>>>>> 'discuss' >>>>>>> - sovereignty over >>> > those >> areas of the >>>> India-Tibet border that were taken by >>>>>>> > force >>> majeure >> by British Imperial >>>> power, but it will sacrifice the > lives of >>>>>>> >>> >> hundreds of thousands of people >>>> in order to keep > the fetish of the >>> >> Indian >>>>>>> Union's  soveriegnty and >>>> > integrity alive in the case of >> Jammu >>> and Kashmir. >>>>>>> This policy > seems to me >>>> to be totally >> criminal and >>> misguided. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > Borders are made by human >>>> beings, >> and can be changed >>> by human > beings. The >>>>>>> geographical expression >>>> >> of the Union of India > is >>> not divinely ordained. >>>>>>> Sensible people all >> over >>>> the > world, understand >>> that maps can change, and >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> >> they > do change. >>>> We hope that the >>> map of China can someday be drawn >> > in >>>>>>> Chinese >>>>>>> school >>>> text books >>> without engulfing Tibet. > If >> that can be a reasonable >>>>>>> >>>> desire, >>>>>>> >>> and not be > seen as an >> 'obstruction', why should a similar desire >>>> be seen >>> > as >>>>>>> an >>>>>>> >> obstruction in the case of India and Jammu and >>>> > Kashmir. >>> Arnab >> Goswami >>>>>>> repeatedly used the word 'splittist' > yestyerday to >>>> >>> refer >> to all those who >>>>>>> were >>>>>>> speaking > at the meeting at the LTG >>>> >>> >> yesterday. A word that is used by > the >>>>>>> Chinese government and the >>> >> Chinese >>>> Communist Party > whenever it refers to the >>>>>>> Dalai Lama and >> the >>> movement for >>>> > a free Tibet. Are we (our government, >>>>>>> >> sections >>>>>>> of >>> our > media) aping >>>> the Chinese government and the >> behemoth of the >>> > Chinese >>>>>>> Communist Party in >>>> aligning and >> endorsing ourselves > with the >>> fetish of a man >>>>>>> made fiction of >>>> >> sovereignty. I > should hope that we >>> can do better than that. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >> best >>>> > regards, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>> >> > Shuddha >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>> > >> _________________________________________ >>>>>> reader-list: an > open >>> >> discussion >>>> list on media and the city. >>>>>> Critiques & >> > Collaborations >>>>>> >>> To subscribe: >>>> send an email to >> > reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe >>>>>> in the >>>> subject >> > header. >>>>>> To unsubscribe: >>>> >>> >> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>>> List > archive: >>>> >>> >> > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > >>>> >> >>> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >>>>>> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >>>>>> > Raqs >> Media >>>> >>> Collective >>>>>> shuddha at sarai.net >>>>>> >> > www.sarai.net >>>>>> >>>> >>> >> > www.raqsmediacollective.net >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> > _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open >>> >> > discussion >>>> list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & > Collaborations >>>> >> To >>> subscribe: send >>>> an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in >>> the subject >>>> > header. >>>> To unsubscribe: >>>> >>> >> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List > archive: >>>> >>> >> > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >>> >> > ___________________________ >>>> ______________ >>> reader-list: an > open >>> >> discussion list on media and the >>>> city. >>> Critiques & > Collaborations >>> >> To >>> subscribe: send an email to >>>> > reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in >>> the subject header. >>> > To >>>> unsubscribe: >>> >> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List > archive: >>>> >>> >> > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >>> >>> >> >> > _____________________ >>> ____________________ >> reader-list: an open >> > discussion list on media and the >>> city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> > To >> subscribe: send an email to >>> reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in >> the subject header. >> To >>> unsubscribe: >> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: >>> >> > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> > > _____________________ >> ____________________ > reader-list: an open > discussion list on media and the >> city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To > subscribe: send an email to >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. > To >> unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: >> > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _____________________ > ____________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To > unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From peter.ksmtf at gmail.com Tue Oct 26 22:55:04 2010 From: peter.ksmtf at gmail.com (T Peter) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 22:55:04 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?Fisher_people=27s_march_to_the_AG?= =?windows-1252?q?=92s_office=2C?= Message-ID: Fishermen for stir against CRZ draft http://www.thehindu.com/2010/10/26/stories/2010102660570200.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Special Correspondent Thiruvananthapuram: The National Fishworkers' Forum (NFF) and the Kerala Swathanthra Malsyathozhilaly Federation (KSMTF) are embarking on an agitation against the Centre's draft notification on the Coastal Regulation Zone 2010. In a memorandum submitted to the President, Prime Minister, UPA chairperson and the Minister for Environment and Forests, the organisations pointed out that the draft notification was only marginally different from the pre-draft which was rejected by the fishing communities. The memorandum jointly issued by NFF chairperson Matanhy Saldanha and KSMTF president T. Peter said the draft continued to legitimise ‘non-polluting' industries in Special Economic Zones, nuclear power plants, power generation by non-conventional energy sources, ‘green field airport' in Navi Mumbai, storage of petroleum products, fertilizers and chemicals, large-scale housing projects and generous exemptions to tourism projects. The organisations said the provisions to permit ports in stable coasts and foreshore facilities for thermal power plants were incorporated without studying their cumulative impact. The provision of certain ‘special considerations for Greater Mumbai, Kerala and Goa' threatened the very foundation of the CRZ regime. There was no logic in the introduction of ‘Critically Vulnerable Coastal Areas' in the draft notification as there was no evidence that people in these areas were actually living in National Parks or biosphere areas. Some of the regulations that hampered fishing in areas that housed National Parks and biosphere reserves needed changes in other laws like the Forest Conservation Act or Wildlife Protection Act. Islands excluded The exclusion of the island territories (Andaman & Nicobar, Lakshadweep) from the purview of the CRZ and the creation of a separate Island Protection Zone (IPZ) notification for them would signal the de-regulation of the islands. The Kerala Swathanthra Malsyathozhilaly Federation (KSMTF) will organise  fisher people's march to the AG’s office, Thiruvananthapuram on 29th October 2010. From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Wed Oct 27 00:05:43 2010 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 00:05:43 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Sedition Case Against terrorist-maoist supporter Arundhati Roy Message-ID: Sedition Case Against Arundhati Roy *Ranchi | Oct 26, 2010 * *PTI* A case of alleged sedition has been filed in a local court against noted writer Arundhati Roy for her controversial remarks on Kashmir. The complaint, lodged by one Ashish Kumar Singh in the Chief Judicial Magistrate's (CJM) court of Vijay Kumar here yesterday, was today transferred to the court of Judicial Magistrate (first class) of Amit Shekhar. Singh, a resident of Ranchi, demanded action against Roy under section 124 of Indian Penal Code (sedition) for her remarks on Kashmir at a seminar in Delhi last week. Roy had shared the dais with pro-Pakistan hardline Hurriyat leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani and pro-Maoist leader Vara Vara Rao among others at the Delhi seminar. Roy had said "Kashmir has never been an integral part of India. It is a historical fact. Even the Indian government has accepted this." From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Wed Oct 27 00:30:54 2010 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 00:30:54 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] UP IPS man seeks action against Geelani, Roy Message-ID: *UP IPS man seeks action against Geelani, Roy* October 27, 2010 12:33:29 AM Link - http://www.dailypioneer.com/292444/UP-IPS-man-seeks-action-against-Geelani-Roy.html *Biswajeet Banerjee | Lucknow* A serving IPS officer of Uttar Pradesh cadre has written a letter to Delhi Police Commissioner, urging him to lodge FIRs against Syed Ali Shah Geelani, Arundhati Roy and SAR Geelani, for making seditious speeches. The 1992 batch IPS officer, Amitabh Thakur, wrote, “ As per reports, many speakers, including Syed Ali Shah Geelani, Arundhati Roy and SAR Geelani, had openly used seditious language and had conducted themselves in a manner that would easily amount to conspiracy to commit offences punishable by Section 121 which is about waging war, or attempting to wage war, or abetting waging of war, against the Indian Government.” The IPS officer said while Article 19 gave citizens the right to freedom of speech, Article 19(2) made it clear that “ nothing in sub clause (a) of clause (1) shall prevent the state from imposing lawful restrictions in the interests of the sovereignty and integrity of India, the security of the state, friendly relations with foreign States, public order, decency or morality or in relation to contempt of court, defamation or incitement to an offence. “Syed Ali Shah Geelani, Arundhati Roy or SAR Geelani or anyone else might have all the rights as a human being to have certain opinions and views and also to firmly believe in them but when it comes to expressing the views in public domain, each one of us have to adhere to the law of the land,” Thakur said. “And when the matter is related with the basic integrity and unity of the nation, the seriousness of the matter increases manifold,” he said. “This is important because any laxity or relaxation on this account would always act as a motivating factor and precedence to others to take law in their own hands,” Thakur, who is on study leave and doing MBA from IIM (L), said. “The situation becomes more serious when persons committing the crime are considered as respected members of society and claim to be intellectuals and thinkers in their own way. The crime being committed has been done in the most deliberate and intentional manner, very well knowing what exactly they were doing,” he added. “Possibly they had a feeling and a thought that their crime would be overlooked and they could play with the law of the land in the way they want it to be. This, in fact, is the most dangerous part of the entire episode,” the IPS officer told The Pioneer. From pheeta.ram at gmail.com Wed Oct 27 02:10:12 2010 From: pheeta.ram at gmail.com (Pheeta Ram) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 02:10:12 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Statement by Arundhati Roy Message-ID: STATEMENT BY ARUNDHATI ROY I write this from Srinagar, Kashmir. This morning’s papers say that I may be arrested on charges of sedition for what I have said at recent public meetings on Kashmir. I said what millions of people here say every day. I said what I, as well as other commentators have written and said for years. Anybody who cares to read the transcripts of my speeches will see that they were fundamentally a call for justice. I spoke about justice for the people of Kashmir who live under one of the most brutal military occupations in the world; for Kashmiri Pandits who live out the tragedy of having been driven out of their homeland; for Dalit soldiers killed in Kashmir whose graves I visited on garbage heaps in their villages in Cuddalore; for the Indian poor who pay the price of this occupation in material ways and who are now learning to live in the terror of what is becoming a police state. Yesterday I traveled to Shopian, the apple-town in South Kashmir which had remained closed for 47 days last year in protest against the brutal rape and murder of Asiya and Nilofer, the young women whose bodies were found in a shallow stream near their homes and whose murderers have still not been brought to justice. I met Shakeel, who is Nilofer’s husband and Asiya’s brother. We sat in a circle of people crazed with grief and anger who had lost hope that they would ever get ‘insaf’—justice—from India, and now believed that Azadi—freedom— was their only hope. I met young stone pelters who had been shot through their eyes. I traveled with a young man who told me how three of his friends, teenagers in Anantnag district, had been taken into custody and had their finger-nails pulled out as punishment for throwing stones. In the papers some have accused me of giving ‘hate-speeches’, of wanting India to break up. On the contrary, what I say comes from love and pride. It comes from not wanting people to be killed, raped, imprisoned or have their finger-nails pulled out in order to force them to say they are Indians. It comes from wanting to live in a society that is striving to be a just one. Pity the nation that has to silence its writers for speaking their minds. Pity the nation that needs to jail those who ask for justice, while communal killers, mass murderers, corporate scamsters, looters, rapists, and those who prey on the poorest of the poor, roam free. Arundhati Roy October 26 2010 From tapasrayx at gmail.com Wed Oct 27 06:42:46 2010 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray [Gmail]) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 06:42:46 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Statement by Arundhati Roy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Pheeta, Thanks for this. I think it would be good if we gave the links along with any material from online sources that we might be posting. This one's is . As for offline sources (e.g., printed books, etc.), a mention of the source, as complete as possible, would be very helpful. Thanks again. Tapas On 27 October 2010 02:10, Pheeta Ram wrote: > STATEMENT BY ARUNDHATI ROY > > I write this from Srinagar, Kashmir. This morning’s papers say that I > may be arrested on charges of sedition for what I have said at recent > public meetings on Kashmir. I said what millions of people here say > every day. I said what I, as well as other commentators have written > and said for years. Anybody who cares to read the transcripts of my > speeches will see that they were fundamentally a call for justice. I > spoke about justice for the people of Kashmir who live under one of > the most brutal military occupations in the world; for Kashmiri > Pandits who live out the tragedy of having been driven out of their > homeland; for Dalit soldiers killed in Kashmir whose graves I visited > on garbage heaps in their villages in Cuddalore; for the Indian poor > who pay the price of this occupation in material ways and who are now > learning to live in the terror of what is becoming a police state. > > Yesterday I traveled to Shopian, the apple-town in South Kashmir which > had remained closed for 47 days last year in protest against the > brutal rape and murder of Asiya and Nilofer, the young women whose > bodies were found in a shallow stream near their homes and whose > murderers have still not been brought to justice. I met Shakeel, who > is Nilofer’s husband and Asiya’s brother.  We sat in a circle of > people crazed with grief and anger who had lost hope that they would > ever get ‘insaf’—justice—from India, and now believed that > Azadi—freedom— was their only hope. I met young stone pelters who had > been shot through their eyes. I traveled with a young man who told me > how three of his friends, teenagers in Anantnag district, had been > taken into custody and had their finger-nails pulled out as punishment > for throwing stones. > > In the papers some have accused me of giving ‘hate-speeches’, of > wanting India to break up. On the contrary, what I say comes from love > and pride. It comes from not wanting people to be killed, raped, > imprisoned or have their finger-nails pulled out in order to force > them to say they are Indians. It comes from wanting to live in a > society that is striving to be a just one. Pity the nation that has to > silence its writers for speaking their minds. Pity the nation that > needs to jail those who ask for justice, while communal killers, mass > murderers, corporate scamsters, looters, rapists, and those who prey > on the poorest of the poor, roam free. > > Arundhati Roy > > October 26 2010 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pheeta.ram at gmail.com Wed Oct 27 09:07:12 2010 From: pheeta.ram at gmail.com (Pheeta Ram) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 09:07:12 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Statement by Arundhati Roy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Tapas Actually the statement was sent to me by somebody. I forgot to check if it had already been published online; that's why there was no link. Thanks for reminding me the etiquettes of responsible online publishing. I shall take care next time. Pheeta Ram On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 6:42 AM, Tapas Ray [Gmail] wrote: > Pheeta, > > Thanks for this. I think it would be good if we gave the links along > with any material from online sources that we might be posting. This > one's is < > http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/arundhati-roys-statement-on-possible-sedition-case-62566 > >. > As for offline sources (e.g., printed books, etc.), a mention of the > source, as complete as possible, would be very helpful. > > Thanks again. > > Tapas > > > On 27 October 2010 02:10, Pheeta Ram wrote: > > STATEMENT BY ARUNDHATI ROY > > > > I write this from Srinagar, Kashmir. This morning’s papers say that I > > may be arrested on charges of sedition for what I have said at recent > > public meetings on Kashmir. I said what millions of people here say > > every day. I said what I, as well as other commentators have written > > and said for years. Anybody who cares to read the transcripts of my > > speeches will see that they were fundamentally a call for justice. I > > spoke about justice for the people of Kashmir who live under one of > > the most brutal military occupations in the world; for Kashmiri > > Pandits who live out the tragedy of having been driven out of their > > homeland; for Dalit soldiers killed in Kashmir whose graves I visited > > on garbage heaps in their villages in Cuddalore; for the Indian poor > > who pay the price of this occupation in material ways and who are now > > learning to live in the terror of what is becoming a police state. > > > > Yesterday I traveled to Shopian, the apple-town in South Kashmir which > > had remained closed for 47 days last year in protest against the > > brutal rape and murder of Asiya and Nilofer, the young women whose > > bodies were found in a shallow stream near their homes and whose > > murderers have still not been brought to justice. I met Shakeel, who > > is Nilofer’s husband and Asiya’s brother. We sat in a circle of > > people crazed with grief and anger who had lost hope that they would > > ever get ‘insaf’—justice—from India, and now believed that > > Azadi—freedom— was their only hope. I met young stone pelters who had > > been shot through their eyes. I traveled with a young man who told me > > how three of his friends, teenagers in Anantnag district, had been > > taken into custody and had their finger-nails pulled out as punishment > > for throwing stones. > > > > In the papers some have accused me of giving ‘hate-speeches’, of > > wanting India to break up. On the contrary, what I say comes from love > > and pride. It comes from not wanting people to be killed, raped, > > imprisoned or have their finger-nails pulled out in order to force > > them to say they are Indians. It comes from wanting to live in a > > society that is striving to be a just one. Pity the nation that has to > > silence its writers for speaking their minds. Pity the nation that > > needs to jail those who ask for justice, while communal killers, mass > > murderers, corporate scamsters, looters, rapists, and those who prey > > on the poorest of the poor, roam free. > > > > Arundhati Roy > > > > October 26 2010 > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From tapasrayx at gmail.com Wed Oct 27 09:52:37 2010 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray [Gmail]) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 09:52:37 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Statement by Arundhati Roy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Pheeta, No problem, and no need to apologise! Best, Tapas On 27 October 2010 09:07, Pheeta Ram wrote: > Dear Tapas > Actually the statement was sent to me by somebody. I forgot to check if it > had already been published online; that's why there was no link. Thanks for > reminding me the etiquettes of responsible online publishing. > I shall take care next time. > Pheeta Ram > > On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 6:42 AM, Tapas Ray [Gmail] > wrote: >> >> Pheeta, >> >> Thanks for this. I think it would be good if we gave the links along >> with any material from online sources that we might be posting. This >> one's is >> . >> As for offline sources (e.g., printed books, etc.), a mention of the >> source, as complete as possible, would be very helpful. >> >> Thanks again. >> >> Tapas >> >> >> On 27 October 2010 02:10, Pheeta Ram wrote: >> > STATEMENT BY ARUNDHATI ROY >> > >> > I write this from Srinagar, Kashmir. This morning’s papers say that I >> > may be arrested on charges of sedition for what I have said at recent >> > public meetings on Kashmir. I said what millions of people here say >> > every day. I said what I, as well as other commentators have written >> > and said for years. Anybody who cares to read the transcripts of my >> > speeches will see that they were fundamentally a call for justice. I >> > spoke about justice for the people of Kashmir who live under one of >> > the most brutal military occupations in the world; for Kashmiri >> > Pandits who live out the tragedy of having been driven out of their >> > homeland; for Dalit soldiers killed in Kashmir whose graves I visited >> > on garbage heaps in their villages in Cuddalore; for the Indian poor >> > who pay the price of this occupation in material ways and who are now >> > learning to live in the terror of what is becoming a police state. >> > >> > Yesterday I traveled to Shopian, the apple-town in South Kashmir which >> > had remained closed for 47 days last year in protest against the >> > brutal rape and murder of Asiya and Nilofer, the young women whose >> > bodies were found in a shallow stream near their homes and whose >> > murderers have still not been brought to justice. I met Shakeel, who >> > is Nilofer’s husband and Asiya’s brother.  We sat in a circle of >> > people crazed with grief and anger who had lost hope that they would >> > ever get ‘insaf’—justice—from India, and now believed that >> > Azadi—freedom— was their only hope. I met young stone pelters who had >> > been shot through their eyes. I traveled with a young man who told me >> > how three of his friends, teenagers in Anantnag district, had been >> > taken into custody and had their finger-nails pulled out as punishment >> > for throwing stones. >> > >> > In the papers some have accused me of giving ‘hate-speeches’, of >> > wanting India to break up. On the contrary, what I say comes from love >> > and pride. It comes from not wanting people to be killed, raped, >> > imprisoned or have their finger-nails pulled out in order to force >> > them to say they are Indians. It comes from wanting to live in a >> > society that is striving to be a just one. Pity the nation that has to >> > silence its writers for speaking their minds. Pity the nation that >> > needs to jail those who ask for justice, while communal killers, mass >> > murderers, corporate scamsters, looters, rapists, and those who prey >> > on the poorest of the poor, roam free. >> > >> > Arundhati Roy >> > >> > October 26 2010 >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From rajkamalgoswami at gmail.com Wed Oct 27 14:01:38 2010 From: rajkamalgoswami at gmail.com (Rajkamal Goswami) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 14:01:38 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Statement by Arundhati Roy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I am just in awe of this woman. On 10/27/10, Tapas Ray [Gmail] wrote: > Pheeta, > > No problem, and no need to apologise! > > Best, > > Tapas > > On 27 October 2010 09:07, Pheeta Ram wrote: >> Dear Tapas >> Actually the statement was sent to me by somebody. I forgot to check if it >> had already been published online; that's why there was no link. Thanks >> for >> reminding me the etiquettes of responsible online publishing. >> I shall take care next time. >> Pheeta Ram >> >> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 6:42 AM, Tapas Ray [Gmail] >> wrote: >>> >>> Pheeta, >>> >>> Thanks for this. I think it would be good if we gave the links along >>> with any material from online sources that we might be posting. This >>> one's is >>> . >>> As for offline sources (e.g., printed books, etc.), a mention of the >>> source, as complete as possible, would be very helpful. >>> >>> Thanks again. >>> >>> Tapas >>> >>> >>> On 27 October 2010 02:10, Pheeta Ram wrote: >>> > STATEMENT BY ARUNDHATI ROY >>> > >>> > I write this from Srinagar, Kashmir. This morning’s papers say that I >>> > may be arrested on charges of sedition for what I have said at recent >>> > public meetings on Kashmir. I said what millions of people here say >>> > every day. I said what I, as well as other commentators have written >>> > and said for years. Anybody who cares to read the transcripts of my >>> > speeches will see that they were fundamentally a call for justice. I >>> > spoke about justice for the people of Kashmir who live under one of >>> > the most brutal military occupations in the world; for Kashmiri >>> > Pandits who live out the tragedy of having been driven out of their >>> > homeland; for Dalit soldiers killed in Kashmir whose graves I visited >>> > on garbage heaps in their villages in Cuddalore; for the Indian poor >>> > who pay the price of this occupation in material ways and who are now >>> > learning to live in the terror of what is becoming a police state. >>> > >>> > Yesterday I traveled to Shopian, the apple-town in South Kashmir which >>> > had remained closed for 47 days last year in protest against the >>> > brutal rape and murder of Asiya and Nilofer, the young women whose >>> > bodies were found in a shallow stream near their homes and whose >>> > murderers have still not been brought to justice. I met Shakeel, who >>> > is Nilofer’s husband and Asiya’s brother.  We sat in a circle of >>> > people crazed with grief and anger who had lost hope that they would >>> > ever get ‘insaf’—justice—from India, and now believed that >>> > Azadi—freedom— was their only hope. I met young stone pelters who had >>> > been shot through their eyes. I traveled with a young man who told me >>> > how three of his friends, teenagers in Anantnag district, had been >>> > taken into custody and had their finger-nails pulled out as punishment >>> > for throwing stones. >>> > >>> > In the papers some have accused me of giving ‘hate-speeches’, of >>> > wanting India to break up. On the contrary, what I say comes from love >>> > and pride. It comes from not wanting people to be killed, raped, >>> > imprisoned or have their finger-nails pulled out in order to force >>> > them to say they are Indians. It comes from wanting to live in a >>> > society that is striving to be a just one. Pity the nation that has to >>> > silence its writers for speaking their minds. Pity the nation that >>> > needs to jail those who ask for justice, while communal killers, mass >>> > murderers, corporate scamsters, looters, rapists, and those who prey >>> > on the poorest of the poor, roam free. >>> > >>> > Arundhati Roy >>> > >>> > October 26 2010 >>> > _________________________________________ >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> > Critiques & Collaborations >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> > subscribe in the subject header. >>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Rajkamal From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Wed Oct 27 14:23:14 2010 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 14:23:14 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Statement by Arundhati Roy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Isn't she a Fiction writer? Or is she really a writer? Just curious. On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 2:01 PM, Rajkamal Goswami wrote: > I am just in awe of this woman. > > On 10/27/10, Tapas Ray [Gmail] wrote: > > Pheeta, > > > > No problem, and no need to apologise! > > > > Best, > > > > Tapas > > > > On 27 October 2010 09:07, Pheeta Ram wrote: > >> Dear Tapas > >> Actually the statement was sent to me by somebody. I forgot to check if > it > >> had already been published online; that's why there was no link. Thanks > >> for > >> reminding me the etiquettes of responsible online publishing. > >> I shall take care next time. > >> Pheeta Ram > >> > >> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 6:42 AM, Tapas Ray [Gmail] > > >> wrote: > >>> > >>> Pheeta, > >>> > >>> Thanks for this. I think it would be good if we gave the links along > >>> with any material from online sources that we might be posting. This > >>> one's is > >>> < > http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/arundhati-roys-statement-on-possible-sedition-case-62566 > >. > >>> As for offline sources (e.g., printed books, etc.), a mention of the > >>> source, as complete as possible, would be very helpful. > >>> > >>> Thanks again. > >>> > >>> Tapas > >>> > >>> > >>> On 27 October 2010 02:10, Pheeta Ram wrote: > >>> > STATEMENT BY ARUNDHATI ROY > >>> > > >>> > I write this from Srinagar, Kashmir. This morning’s papers say that I > >>> > may be arrested on charges of sedition for what I have said at recent > >>> > public meetings on Kashmir. I said what millions of people here say > >>> > every day. I said what I, as well as other commentators have written > >>> > and said for years. Anybody who cares to read the transcripts of my > >>> > speeches will see that they were fundamentally a call for justice. I > >>> > spoke about justice for the people of Kashmir who live under one of > >>> > the most brutal military occupations in the world; for Kashmiri > >>> > Pandits who live out the tragedy of having been driven out of their > >>> > homeland; for Dalit soldiers killed in Kashmir whose graves I visited > >>> > on garbage heaps in their villages in Cuddalore; for the Indian poor > >>> > who pay the price of this occupation in material ways and who are now > >>> > learning to live in the terror of what is becoming a police state. > >>> > > >>> > Yesterday I traveled to Shopian, the apple-town in South Kashmir > which > >>> > had remained closed for 47 days last year in protest against the > >>> > brutal rape and murder of Asiya and Nilofer, the young women whose > >>> > bodies were found in a shallow stream near their homes and whose > >>> > murderers have still not been brought to justice. I met Shakeel, who > >>> > is Nilofer’s husband and Asiya’s brother. We sat in a circle of > >>> > people crazed with grief and anger who had lost hope that they would > >>> > ever get ‘insaf’—justice—from India, and now believed that > >>> > Azadi—freedom— was their only hope. I met young stone pelters who had > >>> > been shot through their eyes. I traveled with a young man who told me > >>> > how three of his friends, teenagers in Anantnag district, had been > >>> > taken into custody and had their finger-nails pulled out as > punishment > >>> > for throwing stones. > >>> > > >>> > In the papers some have accused me of giving ‘hate-speeches’, of > >>> > wanting India to break up. On the contrary, what I say comes from > love > >>> > and pride. It comes from not wanting people to be killed, raped, > >>> > imprisoned or have their finger-nails pulled out in order to force > >>> > them to say they are Indians. It comes from wanting to live in a > >>> > society that is striving to be a just one. Pity the nation that has > to > >>> > silence its writers for speaking their minds. Pity the nation that > >>> > needs to jail those who ask for justice, while communal killers, mass > >>> > murderers, corporate scamsters, looters, rapists, and those who prey > >>> > on the poorest of the poor, roam free. > >>> > > >>> > Arundhati Roy > >>> > > >>> > October 26 2010 > >>> > _________________________________________ > >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>> > Critiques & Collaborations > >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>> > subscribe in the subject header. > >>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >>> _________________________________________ > >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>> subscribe in the subject header. > >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe > > in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > -- > Rajkamal > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From zulfi14 at gmail.com Wed Oct 27 14:29:03 2010 From: zulfi14 at gmail.com (Zulfiya Hamzaki) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 14:29:03 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Statement by Arundhati Roy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Aditya, A fiction writer is *really* a writer too. Other than fiction, Roy is a an active political writer. You can have a look at her political essays in her books "The Algebra of Infinite Justice" and "An Ordinary Person's Guide to Empire". Regards, Zulfiya On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 2:23 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > Isn't she a Fiction writer? Or is she really a writer? Just curious. > > On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 2:01 PM, Rajkamal Goswami < > rajkamalgoswami at gmail.com > > wrote: > > > I am just in awe of this woman. > > > > On 10/27/10, Tapas Ray [Gmail] wrote: > > > Pheeta, > > > > > > No problem, and no need to apologise! > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > Tapas > > > > > > On 27 October 2010 09:07, Pheeta Ram wrote: > > >> Dear Tapas > > >> Actually the statement was sent to me by somebody. I forgot to check > if > > it > > >> had already been published online; that's why there was no link. > Thanks > > >> for > > >> reminding me the etiquettes of responsible online publishing. > > >> I shall take care next time. > > >> Pheeta Ram > > >> > > >> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 6:42 AM, Tapas Ray [Gmail] < > tapasrayx at gmail.com > > > > > >> wrote: > > >>> > > >>> Pheeta, > > >>> > > >>> Thanks for this. I think it would be good if we gave the links along > > >>> with any material from online sources that we might be posting. This > > >>> one's is > > >>> < > > > http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/arundhati-roys-statement-on-possible-sedition-case-62566 > > >. > > >>> As for offline sources (e.g., printed books, etc.), a mention of the > > >>> source, as complete as possible, would be very helpful. > > >>> > > >>> Thanks again. > > >>> > > >>> Tapas > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> On 27 October 2010 02:10, Pheeta Ram wrote: > > >>> > STATEMENT BY ARUNDHATI ROY > > >>> > > > >>> > I write this from Srinagar, Kashmir. This morning’s papers say that > I > > >>> > may be arrested on charges of sedition for what I have said at > recent > > >>> > public meetings on Kashmir. I said what millions of people here say > > >>> > every day. I said what I, as well as other commentators have > written > > >>> > and said for years. Anybody who cares to read the transcripts of my > > >>> > speeches will see that they were fundamentally a call for justice. > I > > >>> > spoke about justice for the people of Kashmir who live under one of > > >>> > the most brutal military occupations in the world; for Kashmiri > > >>> > Pandits who live out the tragedy of having been driven out of their > > >>> > homeland; for Dalit soldiers killed in Kashmir whose graves I > visited > > >>> > on garbage heaps in their villages in Cuddalore; for the Indian > poor > > >>> > who pay the price of this occupation in material ways and who are > now > > >>> > learning to live in the terror of what is becoming a police state. > > >>> > > > >>> > Yesterday I traveled to Shopian, the apple-town in South Kashmir > > which > > >>> > had remained closed for 47 days last year in protest against the > > >>> > brutal rape and murder of Asiya and Nilofer, the young women whose > > >>> > bodies were found in a shallow stream near their homes and whose > > >>> > murderers have still not been brought to justice. I met Shakeel, > who > > >>> > is Nilofer’s husband and Asiya’s brother. We sat in a circle of > > >>> > people crazed with grief and anger who had lost hope that they > would > > >>> > ever get ‘insaf’—justice—from India, and now believed that > > >>> > Azadi—freedom— was their only hope. I met young stone pelters who > had > > >>> > been shot through their eyes. I traveled with a young man who told > me > > >>> > how three of his friends, teenagers in Anantnag district, had been > > >>> > taken into custody and had their finger-nails pulled out as > > punishment > > >>> > for throwing stones. > > >>> > > > >>> > In the papers some have accused me of giving ‘hate-speeches’, of > > >>> > wanting India to break up. On the contrary, what I say comes from > > love > > >>> > and pride. It comes from not wanting people to be killed, raped, > > >>> > imprisoned or have their finger-nails pulled out in order to force > > >>> > them to say they are Indians. It comes from wanting to live in a > > >>> > society that is striving to be a just one. Pity the nation that has > > to > > >>> > silence its writers for speaking their minds. Pity the nation that > > >>> > needs to jail those who ask for justice, while communal killers, > mass > > >>> > murderers, corporate scamsters, looters, rapists, and those who > prey > > >>> > on the poorest of the poor, roam free. > > >>> > > > >>> > Arundhati Roy > > >>> > > > >>> > October 26 2010 > > >>> > _________________________________________ > > >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >>> > Critiques & Collaborations > > >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > >>> > subscribe in the subject header. > > >>> > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > >>> _________________________________________ > > >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >>> Critiques & Collaborations > > >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > >>> subscribe in the subject header. > > >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > >> > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe > > > in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > -- > > Rajkamal > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From tapasrayx at gmail.com Wed Oct 27 14:30:09 2010 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray [Gmail]) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 14:30:09 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Statement by Arundhati Roy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Really intelligent comment. Let's give him a big hand! On 27 October 2010 14:23, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > Isn't she a Fiction writer? Or is she really a writer? Just curious. > > On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 2:01 PM, Rajkamal Goswami > wrote: > >> I am just in awe of this woman. >> >> On 10/27/10, Tapas Ray [Gmail] wrote: >> > Pheeta, >> > >> > No problem, and no need to apologise! >> > >> > Best, >> > >> > Tapas >> > >> > On 27 October 2010 09:07, Pheeta Ram wrote: >> >> Dear Tapas >> >> Actually the statement was sent to me by somebody. I forgot to check if >> it >> >> had already been published online; that's why there was no link. Thanks >> >> for >> >> reminding me the etiquettes of responsible online publishing. >> >> I shall take care next time. >> >> Pheeta Ram >> >> >> >> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 6:42 AM, Tapas Ray [Gmail] > > >> >> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> Pheeta, >> >>> >> >>> Thanks for this. I think it would be good if we gave the links along >> >>> with any material from online sources that we might be posting. This >> >>> one's is >> >>> < >> http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/arundhati-roys-statement-on-possible-sedition-case-62566 >> >. >> >>> As for offline sources (e.g., printed books, etc.), a mention of the >> >>> source, as complete as possible, would be very helpful. >> >>> >> >>> Thanks again. >> >>> >> >>> Tapas >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> On 27 October 2010 02:10, Pheeta Ram wrote: >> >>> > STATEMENT BY ARUNDHATI ROY >> >>> > >> >>> > I write this from Srinagar, Kashmir. This morning’s papers say that I >> >>> > may be arrested on charges of sedition for what I have said at recent >> >>> > public meetings on Kashmir. I said what millions of people here say >> >>> > every day. I said what I, as well as other commentators have written >> >>> > and said for years. Anybody who cares to read the transcripts of my >> >>> > speeches will see that they were fundamentally a call for justice. I >> >>> > spoke about justice for the people of Kashmir who live under one of >> >>> > the most brutal military occupations in the world; for Kashmiri >> >>> > Pandits who live out the tragedy of having been driven out of their >> >>> > homeland; for Dalit soldiers killed in Kashmir whose graves I visited >> >>> > on garbage heaps in their villages in Cuddalore; for the Indian poor >> >>> > who pay the price of this occupation in material ways and who are now >> >>> > learning to live in the terror of what is becoming a police state. >> >>> > >> >>> > Yesterday I traveled to Shopian, the apple-town in South Kashmir >> which >> >>> > had remained closed for 47 days last year in protest against the >> >>> > brutal rape and murder of Asiya and Nilofer, the young women whose >> >>> > bodies were found in a shallow stream near their homes and whose >> >>> > murderers have still not been brought to justice. I met Shakeel, who >> >>> > is Nilofer’s husband and Asiya’s brother.  We sat in a circle of >> >>> > people crazed with grief and anger who had lost hope that they would >> >>> > ever get ‘insaf’—justice—from India, and now believed that >> >>> > Azadi—freedom— was their only hope. I met young stone pelters who had >> >>> > been shot through their eyes. I traveled with a young man who told me >> >>> > how three of his friends, teenagers in Anantnag district, had been >> >>> > taken into custody and had their finger-nails pulled out as >> punishment >> >>> > for throwing stones. >> >>> > >> >>> > In the papers some have accused me of giving ‘hate-speeches’, of >> >>> > wanting India to break up. On the contrary, what I say comes from >> love >> >>> > and pride. It comes from not wanting people to be killed, raped, >> >>> > imprisoned or have their finger-nails pulled out in order to force >> >>> > them to say they are Indians. It comes from wanting to live in a >> >>> > society that is striving to be a just one. Pity the nation that has >> to >> >>> > silence its writers for speaking their minds. Pity the nation that >> >>> > needs to jail those who ask for justice, while communal killers, mass >> >>> > murderers, corporate scamsters, looters, rapists, and those who prey >> >>> > on the poorest of the poor, roam free. >> >>> > >> >>> > Arundhati Roy >> >>> > >> >>> > October 26 2010 >> >>> > _________________________________________ >> >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >>> > Critiques & Collaborations >> >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >>> > subscribe in the subject header. >> >>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >>> _________________________________________ >> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >>> Critiques & Collaborations >> >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >>> subscribe in the subject header. >> >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe >> > in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> -- >> Rajkamal >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From tapasrayx at gmail.com Wed Oct 27 14:31:27 2010 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray [Gmail]) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 14:31:27 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Statement by Arundhati Roy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ps: I mean, to Aditya. On 27 October 2010 14:30, Tapas Ray [Gmail] wrote: > Really intelligent comment. Let's give him a big hand! > > On 27 October 2010 14:23, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: >> Isn't she a Fiction writer? Or is she really a writer? Just curious. >> >> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 2:01 PM, Rajkamal Goswami >> wrote: >> >>> I am just in awe of this woman. >>> >>> On 10/27/10, Tapas Ray [Gmail] wrote: >>> > Pheeta, >>> > >>> > No problem, and no need to apologise! >>> > >>> > Best, >>> > >>> > Tapas >>> > >>> > On 27 October 2010 09:07, Pheeta Ram wrote: >>> >> Dear Tapas >>> >> Actually the statement was sent to me by somebody. I forgot to check if >>> it >>> >> had already been published online; that's why there was no link. Thanks >>> >> for >>> >> reminding me the etiquettes of responsible online publishing. >>> >> I shall take care next time. >>> >> Pheeta Ram >>> >> >>> >> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 6:42 AM, Tapas Ray [Gmail] >> > >>> >> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Pheeta, >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks for this. I think it would be good if we gave the links along >>> >>> with any material from online sources that we might be posting. This >>> >>> one's is >>> >>> < >>> http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/arundhati-roys-statement-on-possible-sedition-case-62566 >>> >. >>> >>> As for offline sources (e.g., printed books, etc.), a mention of the >>> >>> source, as complete as possible, would be very helpful. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks again. >>> >>> >>> >>> Tapas >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 27 October 2010 02:10, Pheeta Ram wrote: >>> >>> > STATEMENT BY ARUNDHATI ROY >>> >>> > >>> >>> > I write this from Srinagar, Kashmir. This morning’s papers say that I >>> >>> > may be arrested on charges of sedition for what I have said at recent >>> >>> > public meetings on Kashmir. I said what millions of people here say >>> >>> > every day. I said what I, as well as other commentators have written >>> >>> > and said for years. Anybody who cares to read the transcripts of my >>> >>> > speeches will see that they were fundamentally a call for justice. I >>> >>> > spoke about justice for the people of Kashmir who live under one of >>> >>> > the most brutal military occupations in the world; for Kashmiri >>> >>> > Pandits who live out the tragedy of having been driven out of their >>> >>> > homeland; for Dalit soldiers killed in Kashmir whose graves I visited >>> >>> > on garbage heaps in their villages in Cuddalore; for the Indian poor >>> >>> > who pay the price of this occupation in material ways and who are now >>> >>> > learning to live in the terror of what is becoming a police state. >>> >>> > >>> >>> > Yesterday I traveled to Shopian, the apple-town in South Kashmir >>> which >>> >>> > had remained closed for 47 days last year in protest against the >>> >>> > brutal rape and murder of Asiya and Nilofer, the young women whose >>> >>> > bodies were found in a shallow stream near their homes and whose >>> >>> > murderers have still not been brought to justice. I met Shakeel, who >>> >>> > is Nilofer’s husband and Asiya’s brother.  We sat in a circle of >>> >>> > people crazed with grief and anger who had lost hope that they would >>> >>> > ever get ‘insaf’—justice—from India, and now believed that >>> >>> > Azadi—freedom— was their only hope. I met young stone pelters who had >>> >>> > been shot through their eyes. I traveled with a young man who told me >>> >>> > how three of his friends, teenagers in Anantnag district, had been >>> >>> > taken into custody and had their finger-nails pulled out as >>> punishment >>> >>> > for throwing stones. >>> >>> > >>> >>> > In the papers some have accused me of giving ‘hate-speeches’, of >>> >>> > wanting India to break up. On the contrary, what I say comes from >>> love >>> >>> > and pride. It comes from not wanting people to be killed, raped, >>> >>> > imprisoned or have their finger-nails pulled out in order to force >>> >>> > them to say they are Indians. It comes from wanting to live in a >>> >>> > society that is striving to be a just one. Pity the nation that has >>> to >>> >>> > silence its writers for speaking their minds. Pity the nation that >>> >>> > needs to jail those who ask for justice, while communal killers, mass >>> >>> > murderers, corporate scamsters, looters, rapists, and those who prey >>> >>> > on the poorest of the poor, roam free. >>> >>> > >>> >>> > Arundhati Roy >>> >>> > >>> >>> > October 26 2010 >>> >>> > _________________________________________ >>> >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> >>> > Critiques & Collaborations >>> >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> >>> > subscribe in the subject header. >>> >>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> >>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >>> _________________________________________ >>> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >> >>> > _________________________________________ >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> > Critiques & Collaborations >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe >>> > in the subject header. >>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Rajkamal >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Wed Oct 27 14:31:34 2010 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 14:31:34 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Statement by Arundhati Roy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Childish essays mocking the existence of a nation. At a point when her writing career is sagging, she is being pulled up from downhill by anti-India separatists to existence. Pity the so called rhetoric writer! On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 2:29 PM, Zulfiya Hamzaki wrote: > Dear Aditya, > > A fiction writer is *really* a writer too. Other than fiction, Roy is a an > active political writer. You can have a look at her political essays in her > books "The Algebra of Infinite Justice" and "An Ordinary Person's Guide to > Empire". > > Regards, > Zulfiya > > > On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 2:23 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > >> Isn't she a Fiction writer? Or is she really a writer? Just curious. >> >> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 2:01 PM, Rajkamal Goswami < >> rajkamalgoswami at gmail.com >> > wrote: >> >> > I am just in awe of this woman. >> > >> > On 10/27/10, Tapas Ray [Gmail] wrote: >> > > Pheeta, >> > > >> > > No problem, and no need to apologise! >> > > >> > > Best, >> > > >> > > Tapas >> > > >> > > On 27 October 2010 09:07, Pheeta Ram wrote: >> > >> Dear Tapas >> > >> Actually the statement was sent to me by somebody. I forgot to check >> if >> > it >> > >> had already been published online; that's why there was no link. >> Thanks >> > >> for >> > >> reminding me the etiquettes of responsible online publishing. >> > >> I shall take care next time. >> > >> Pheeta Ram >> > >> >> > >> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 6:42 AM, Tapas Ray [Gmail] < >> tapasrayx at gmail.com >> > > >> > >> wrote: >> > >>> >> > >>> Pheeta, >> > >>> >> > >>> Thanks for this. I think it would be good if we gave the links along >> > >>> with any material from online sources that we might be posting. This >> > >>> one's is >> > >>> < >> > >> http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/arundhati-roys-statement-on-possible-sedition-case-62566 >> > >. >> > >>> As for offline sources (e.g., printed books, etc.), a mention of the >> > >>> source, as complete as possible, would be very helpful. >> > >>> >> > >>> Thanks again. >> > >>> >> > >>> Tapas >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> On 27 October 2010 02:10, Pheeta Ram wrote: >> > >>> > STATEMENT BY ARUNDHATI ROY >> > >>> > >> > >>> > I write this from Srinagar, Kashmir. This morning’s papers say >> that I >> > >>> > may be arrested on charges of sedition for what I have said at >> recent >> > >>> > public meetings on Kashmir. I said what millions of people here >> say >> > >>> > every day. I said what I, as well as other commentators have >> written >> > >>> > and said for years. Anybody who cares to read the transcripts of >> my >> > >>> > speeches will see that they were fundamentally a call for justice. >> I >> > >>> > spoke about justice for the people of Kashmir who live under one >> of >> > >>> > the most brutal military occupations in the world; for Kashmiri >> > >>> > Pandits who live out the tragedy of having been driven out of >> their >> > >>> > homeland; for Dalit soldiers killed in Kashmir whose graves I >> visited >> > >>> > on garbage heaps in their villages in Cuddalore; for the Indian >> poor >> > >>> > who pay the price of this occupation in material ways and who are >> now >> > >>> > learning to live in the terror of what is becoming a police state. >> > >>> > >> > >>> > Yesterday I traveled to Shopian, the apple-town in South Kashmir >> > which >> > >>> > had remained closed for 47 days last year in protest against the >> > >>> > brutal rape and murder of Asiya and Nilofer, the young women whose >> > >>> > bodies were found in a shallow stream near their homes and whose >> > >>> > murderers have still not been brought to justice. I met Shakeel, >> who >> > >>> > is Nilofer’s husband and Asiya’s brother. We sat in a circle of >> > >>> > people crazed with grief and anger who had lost hope that they >> would >> > >>> > ever get ‘insaf’—justice—from India, and now believed that >> > >>> > Azadi—freedom— was their only hope. I met young stone pelters who >> had >> > >>> > been shot through their eyes. I traveled with a young man who told >> me >> > >>> > how three of his friends, teenagers in Anantnag district, had been >> > >>> > taken into custody and had their finger-nails pulled out as >> > punishment >> > >>> > for throwing stones. >> > >>> > >> > >>> > In the papers some have accused me of giving ‘hate-speeches’, of >> > >>> > wanting India to break up. On the contrary, what I say comes from >> > love >> > >>> > and pride. It comes from not wanting people to be killed, raped, >> > >>> > imprisoned or have their finger-nails pulled out in order to force >> > >>> > them to say they are Indians. It comes from wanting to live in a >> > >>> > society that is striving to be a just one. Pity the nation that >> has >> > to >> > >>> > silence its writers for speaking their minds. Pity the nation that >> > >>> > needs to jail those who ask for justice, while communal killers, >> mass >> > >>> > murderers, corporate scamsters, looters, rapists, and those who >> prey >> > >>> > on the poorest of the poor, roam free. >> > >>> > >> > >>> > Arundhati Roy >> > >>> > >> > >>> > October 26 2010 >> > >>> > _________________________________________ >> > >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > >>> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > >>> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > >>> > To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > >>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > >>> _________________________________________ >> > >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > >>> Critiques & Collaborations >> > >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > >>> subscribe in the subject header. >> > >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > >> >> > > _________________________________________ >> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > > Critiques & Collaborations >> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe >> > > in the subject header. >> > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Rajkamal >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Wed Oct 27 14:32:58 2010 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 14:32:58 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Statement by Arundhati Roy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Are you the moderator? Just curious again. You indeed have a big hand. On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 2:31 PM, Tapas Ray [Gmail] wrote: > ps: I mean, to Aditya. > > On 27 October 2010 14:30, Tapas Ray [Gmail] wrote: > > Really intelligent comment. Let's give him a big hand! > > > > On 27 October 2010 14:23, Aditya Raj Kaul > wrote: > >> Isn't she a Fiction writer? Or is she really a writer? Just curious. > >> > >> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 2:01 PM, Rajkamal Goswami < > rajkamalgoswami at gmail.com > >>> wrote: > >> > >>> I am just in awe of this woman. > >>> > >>> On 10/27/10, Tapas Ray [Gmail] wrote: > >>> > Pheeta, > >>> > > >>> > No problem, and no need to apologise! > >>> > > >>> > Best, > >>> > > >>> > Tapas > >>> > > >>> > On 27 October 2010 09:07, Pheeta Ram wrote: > >>> >> Dear Tapas > >>> >> Actually the statement was sent to me by somebody. I forgot to check > if > >>> it > >>> >> had already been published online; that's why there was no link. > Thanks > >>> >> for > >>> >> reminding me the etiquettes of responsible online publishing. > >>> >> I shall take care next time. > >>> >> Pheeta Ram > >>> >> > >>> >> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 6:42 AM, Tapas Ray [Gmail] < > tapasrayx at gmail.com > >>> > > >>> >> wrote: > >>> >>> > >>> >>> Pheeta, > >>> >>> > >>> >>> Thanks for this. I think it would be good if we gave the links > along > >>> >>> with any material from online sources that we might be posting. > This > >>> >>> one's is > >>> >>> < > >>> > http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/arundhati-roys-statement-on-possible-sedition-case-62566 > >>> >. > >>> >>> As for offline sources (e.g., printed books, etc.), a mention of > the > >>> >>> source, as complete as possible, would be very helpful. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> Thanks again. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> Tapas > >>> >>> > >>> >>> > >>> >>> On 27 October 2010 02:10, Pheeta Ram wrote: > >>> >>> > STATEMENT BY ARUNDHATI ROY > >>> >>> > > >>> >>> > I write this from Srinagar, Kashmir. This morning’s papers say > that I > >>> >>> > may be arrested on charges of sedition for what I have said at > recent > >>> >>> > public meetings on Kashmir. I said what millions of people here > say > >>> >>> > every day. I said what I, as well as other commentators have > written > >>> >>> > and said for years. Anybody who cares to read the transcripts of > my > >>> >>> > speeches will see that they were fundamentally a call for > justice. I > >>> >>> > spoke about justice for the people of Kashmir who live under one > of > >>> >>> > the most brutal military occupations in the world; for Kashmiri > >>> >>> > Pandits who live out the tragedy of having been driven out of > their > >>> >>> > homeland; for Dalit soldiers killed in Kashmir whose graves I > visited > >>> >>> > on garbage heaps in their villages in Cuddalore; for the Indian > poor > >>> >>> > who pay the price of this occupation in material ways and who are > now > >>> >>> > learning to live in the terror of what is becoming a police > state. > >>> >>> > > >>> >>> > Yesterday I traveled to Shopian, the apple-town in South Kashmir > >>> which > >>> >>> > had remained closed for 47 days last year in protest against the > >>> >>> > brutal rape and murder of Asiya and Nilofer, the young women > whose > >>> >>> > bodies were found in a shallow stream near their homes and whose > >>> >>> > murderers have still not been brought to justice. I met Shakeel, > who > >>> >>> > is Nilofer’s husband and Asiya’s brother. We sat in a circle of > >>> >>> > people crazed with grief and anger who had lost hope that they > would > >>> >>> > ever get ‘insaf’—justice—from India, and now believed that > >>> >>> > Azadi—freedom— was their only hope. I met young stone pelters who > had > >>> >>> > been shot through their eyes. I traveled with a young man who > told me > >>> >>> > how three of his friends, teenagers in Anantnag district, had > been > >>> >>> > taken into custody and had their finger-nails pulled out as > >>> punishment > >>> >>> > for throwing stones. > >>> >>> > > >>> >>> > In the papers some have accused me of giving ‘hate-speeches’, of > >>> >>> > wanting India to break up. On the contrary, what I say comes from > >>> love > >>> >>> > and pride. It comes from not wanting people to be killed, raped, > >>> >>> > imprisoned or have their finger-nails pulled out in order to > force > >>> >>> > them to say they are Indians. It comes from wanting to live in a > >>> >>> > society that is striving to be a just one. Pity the nation that > has > >>> to > >>> >>> > silence its writers for speaking their minds. Pity the nation > that > >>> >>> > needs to jail those who ask for justice, while communal killers, > mass > >>> >>> > murderers, corporate scamsters, looters, rapists, and those who > prey > >>> >>> > on the poorest of the poor, roam free. > >>> >>> > > >>> >>> > Arundhati Roy > >>> >>> > > >>> >>> > October 26 2010 > >>> >>> > _________________________________________ > >>> >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>> >>> > Critiques & Collaborations > >>> >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > >>> >>> > subscribe in the subject header. > >>> >>> > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>> >>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >>> >>> _________________________________________ > >>> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>> >>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>> >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>> >>> subscribe in the subject header. > >>> >>> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>> >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >>> >> > >>> > _________________________________________ > >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>> > Critiques & Collaborations > >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>> subscribe > >>> > in the subject header. > >>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Rajkamal > >>> _________________________________________ > >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>> subscribe in the subject header. > >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >>> > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From adityarajbaul at gmail.com Wed Oct 27 14:36:40 2010 From: adityarajbaul at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Baul) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 14:36:40 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?iso-8859-1?q?Azadi=3A_The_Only_Way_=AD_Report_fro?= =?iso-8859-1?q?m_a_Turbulent_Few_Hours_in_Delhi?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Awwww.... poor girl. Would you like a candy? On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 6:10 PM, SJabbar wrote: > Sigh... Now how does one begin to answer this diatribe.  Tell you what: you > win, dude.  OK?  Khush raho. > > > On 26/10/10 4:32 PM, "Aditya Raj Baul" wrote: > >> My name is Aditya Raj Baul. Just because I'm not famous like you, you > can >> allege that my real name is something else. This is offensive, to > say the >> least. > > Your pre-condition for dialogue with me proves my charge. If my >> "real" > identity matters to thsi conversation, as you claim it does, then >> it > means your response would depend on who I am. You would say one thing > if I >> were Praveen Swami, another if I were Dileep Padgaonkar, a third > if I were the >> India editor of The India, Australia, something > completely different if I were >> Masarat Alam, something more nuanced if > I were Yasin Malik, something more >> aggressive if I were SAS Geelani. > > You accuse me of not being Aditya Raj Baul. >> Yet it is you who's afraid > of being Sonia Jabbar. > > For all you know, may be >> I'm you. > > I asked you: > > "I like it how Sonia Jabbar wants to hold Kashmir >> hostage to history - > to the histories of India and Pakistan, to the history of >> what Geelani > has or has not done, has or has not said. She does not think >> history > is irrelevant to today's people who want azadi today in >> today's > context - sorry, she says, India has signed the Simla agreement, >> and > Geelani is a fanatic. Thank you. Fair enough, I suppose. But will >> she > apply the same rigours of historical understanding to the Indian state > and >> its actions in Kashmir? Please?" > > I would be happy to clarify my question, if >> only you'd ask me what > about it you don't understand. But all you want to do >> is be > condescending, suspicious and irritable. > > Thanks but not thanks, > Aditya >> Raj Baul > > > On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 4:22 PM, SJabbar >> wrote: >> Sorry, didn't mean to be.  Was just poking mild fun at your assumed >> name. >> I'd be very happy to have a serious conversation with you any time, >> but it >> would be nice if I knew whom I was addressing.  I'm really not >> interested in >> scoring debating points and this is what has been happening in >> this forum >> particularly with people with false identities. >> Sincerely, >> >> Sonia >> >> >> On 26/10/10 4:15 PM, "Aditya Raj Baul" >> wrote: >> >>> You can be as contemptuous as you want. Doesn't take away from >> your >>> hypocrisy >> >> On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 4:10 PM, SJabbar >> >>> wrote: >>> Oh whenever you want, dear boy, since >> you believe in making >>> history. >>> Atilla D. Hun >>> >>> >>> On 26/10/10 4:01 >> PM, "Aditya Raj Baul" >>> wrote: >>> >>>> My question >> is: when will you make Rahul >>> PM? >>> >>> On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 3:58 PM, >>>> >> SJabbar >>> wrote: >>>> Aditya Raj Baul, >>>> What >> exactly is >>>> your question? >>>> >>> Sincerely, >>>> Sonia Gandhi >>>> >>>> >>>> >> On 26/10/10 2:04 PM, "Aditya >>>> Raj Baul" >>> >> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I like it how Sonia Jabbar >>>> wants to >>> hold Kashmir >> hostage to history - >>>> to the >>>>> histories of India and >>>> >>> Pakistan, >> to the history of what Geelani >>>> has or has not >>>>> done, has or >>> has >>>> >> not said. She does not think history >>>> is irrelevant to today's >>>>> >>> >> people who >>>> want azadi today in today's >>>> context - sorry, she says, >> India >>> has >>>>> signed >>>> the Simla agreement, and >>>> Geelani is a >> fanatic. Thank you. >>> Fair enough, >>>>> I >>>> suppose. But will she >>>> apply >> the same rigours of >>> historical understanding >>>> to >>>>> the Indian >> state >>>> and its actions in >>> Kashmir? Please? >>>> >>>> On Mon, Oct >>>> 25, >> 2010 at >>>>> 9:53 AM, SJabbar >>> wrote: >>>>> Dear >>>> >> Shuddha, >>>>> >>>>> I think >>>>> our >>> differences have narrowed considerably >> as you >>>> continue to >>>>> clarify >>> your >>>>> position.  Reading between >> your lines, you seem >>>> to think that >>> I >>>>> have a >>>>> problem with your >> engaging with Mr. Geelani or >>>> that the >>> problem was >>>>> your >>>>> >> sharing a stage with him. I do not not.  In >>>> >>> politics there are no >>>>> >> pariahs. >>>>>  If someone represents a >>> constituency-- >>>> no matter how >> marginal-- >>>>> that is >>>>> part of the social >>> fabric you cannot >>>> >> ignore it.  It may surprise you >>>>> and >>>>>  many on this >>> list to know >> that Mr. >>>> Geelani and I have known each other >>>>> >>>>> since >>> 1997 and >> have extremely frank >>>> and cordial relations. My problem was> >>>>> >>> with >> the language of your report of >>>> the meeting where your >>> >> enthusiasm >>>>> >>>>> (“tallest separatist leader,” he is >>>> “NOT against >>> >> dialogue,” “all that they >>>>> >>>>> are asking for is the Right to >>>> >>> >> self-determination”) masked a political >>>>> >>>>> reality that was far >> more >>>> >>> complex and brutal.  However, you have since >>>>> >>>>> clarified >> that you do >>> not >>>> endorse Mr. Geelani’s  politics and you >> concede >>>>> >>>>> that he may >>> well have >>>> been playing to audiences in >> Delhi,  bringing us more >>>>> >>>>> or >>> less on the >>>> same page except that >> past experience has made me less >>> likely >>>>> >>>>> to share >>>> your belief >> that someone like Mr. Geelani can be >>> “USED” or that you >>>>> >>>>> can >>>> >>  “compel them to come to a degree of >>> moderation in action, and >> a >>>>> >>>>> >>>> greater, more imaginative radicalism in >>> terms of >> conceptions.” >>>>> >>>>> I am >>>> glad >>>>> you agree that people and >>> >> groups, state and non-state actors who >>>>> >>>> have >>>>> committed crimes >> must >>> stand trial and justice must be done, whether >>>> it >>>>> is >>>>> SAS >> Geelani, >>> Yasin Malik, Syed Salahuddin or various army generals >>>> who >>>>> >> have >>>>> >>> presided over rights abuses while they served in J&K. I have >> in >>>> this >>>>> >>> forum >>>>> written of a Truth & Reconciliation Commission >> modeled on the >>>> >>> South >>>>> African >>>>> experience that should follow >> the final settlement on >>>> >>> J&K. >>>>> >>>>> I am also glad >>>>> that you >> agree with my point of the futility >>> of >>>> creating a >>>>> new >> nation-state >>>>> in the form of an independent >>> Kashmir ( “I >>>> am not for >> the >>>>> moment saying and >>>>> have never said that >>> an independent >>>> >> Kashmir will be in any >>>>> way a qualitative >>>>> improvement >>> (in terms of >> a >>>> state form) than an occupied >>>>> Kashmir,”).  But you >>>>> >>> seem to >> believe that >>>> it is necessary because “ It may >>>>> at least lead to >>> >> the >>>>> withdrawal of the >>>> reality of a brutal occupation.” By >>>>> this >> I >>> assume your >>>>> vision of regime >>>> change means replacing one >> democratic >>>>> >>> republic with another >>>>> democratic >>>> republic and not >> an Islamic republic >>> or a >>>>> military state.  In >>>>> which case >>>> “the >> reality of a brutal >>> occupation” must >>>>> mean the withdrawal of >>>>> >>>> >> hundreds of thousands of >>> uniformed men in J&K.  But >>>>> do you really >> need >>>> to >>>>> create a new >>> nation-state in order to demilitarize >>>>> >> Kashmir? >>>>> >>>>> >>>> From 1947 to >>>>> >>> 1989 India’s military presence was >> restricted to the >>>> borders >>>>> and to the >>> few >>>>> garrisons of >> Srinagar, Baramulla, Leh, Udhampur >>>> and Poonch. >>>>> >>> Between 1989- >>>>> >> 1992 India was being seriously challenged on >>>> the >>> military >>>>> front by >> thousands >>>>> of Kashmiri militants and Islamist >>>> >>> mujahideen.  The >> troop >>>>> surge only >>>>> happened only around 1992-93 and >>> the >>>> Indian >> military was only >>>>> able to >>>>> control the situation around >>> 1995. >> In >>>> 1996 the situation was such >>>>> that it >>>>> was the first time in >>> >> 6 years it was >>>> possible to hold elections and >>>>> yet then >>>>> as in >> 2002 >>> there were hundreds >>>> of assassinations of political >>>>> candidates >> and >>>>> >>> ordinary workers of >>>> political parties (the right to >>>>> >> self-determination >>> is >>>>> never extended to >>>> this group). >>>>> >>>>> >> Anyway, my point is that >>> 500,000 or 700,000 >>>>> troops were >>>> not there >> as a >>>>> permanent fixture >>> since 1947 and the ‘most >>>>> militarized >>>> >> place in the world’ >>>>> was not >>> always so.  It is both desirable >> and >>>>> >>>> possible to withdraw troops >>> and >>>>> it should be done in a >> phased manner. >>>>> >>>>  Though I have been vocal >>> in >>>>> advocating this >> since 2001, sadly, I believe >>>> it >>>>> will be linked >>> to the final >>>>> >> settlement and will not happen before >>>> because of >>>>> the >>> many sleeper >> cells of >>>>> militants that get activated the >>>> moment there >>> is >>>>> >> peace or at least as they >>>>> say ‘normalcy’— as we have >>>> seen in >>> last >> week’s >>>>> encounter between troops and >>>>> the JeM in Srinagar. >>>>  BTW >>> >> Srinagar district was >>>>> one of the districts being >>>>> examined for >> the >>>> >>> revocation of the Disturbed >>>>> Areas Act.  This encounter >> will >>>>> make it >>>> >>> extremely difficult for the state >>>>> government to >> do so. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>  I am >>> glad >>>> you agree with me that the >> 4-point >>>>> formula can be a solution >>> to >>>>> the >>>> vexed Kashmir issue, >> however your reading >>>>> of what went wrong >>> and putting >>>>> >>>> the onus >> of the failure of implementation >>>>> squarely on >>> New Delhi’s >>>> >> shoulder >>>>> is wrong.  Yes, there were delays on New >>>>> >>> Delhi’s side, >> but >>>> those were not >>>>> remarkable considering a political >>>>> >>> >> consensus had to be >>>> built within the >>>>> country (I think it was in >> 2008 >>> during >>>>> the Amarnath >>>> Yatra that I explained >>>>> the entire >> process at >>> length in this >>>>> forum). >>>>  Very simply what happened >> was >>>>> that the >>> Lawyer’s Movement in >>>>> Pakistan >>>> overtook the >> Kashmir process and once >>>>> >>> Mushrraf was ousted and >>>>> Benazir >>>> was >> assassinated the country plunged >>> into >>>>> political turmoil and >> the >>>>> >>>> Zaradari government was too weak to >>> break from >>>>> Pakistan’s >> traditional >>>> stand >>>>> of the UN Resolutions. >>>  Both Gen Kayani and >> the >>>>> ISI were not >>>> comfortable >>>>> with Musharraf’s >>> radical >> departure from tradition. >>>>> Both >>>> believe Pakistan’s >>>>> best >>> >> interests are served by keeping the Kashmir pot >>>>> >>>> boiling, >>> >> maintaining >>>>> India as ‘enemy no 1’, encouraging extremism in >>>>> >>>> >>> >> Afghanistan to maintain >>>>> ‘strategic depth,’ and to scuttle any >>> >> influence >>>>> >>>> India may wield in >>>>> Afghanistan.  So, as much as I >> and >>> many others would >>>> like >>>>> to see the 4-point >>>>> formula being >> at least >>> discussed, under the >>>> present >>>>> Pakistani dispensation >>>>> >> it is highly >>> unlikely. >>>>> >>>>> When you >>>> advocate a plebiscite and you >> believe that >>>>> >>> the azadi movement must >>>>> be >>>> peaceful then you >> must also accommodate >>> the >>>>> possibility of a partitioned >>>>> >>>> J&K, >> where large sections of Jammu >>> and all of >>>>> Ladakh would not vote >> for >>>>> >>>> Pakistan (and under what UN >>> Resolution would the >>>>> option >> of independence >>>> be >>>>> granted since NO UN >>> Resolution holds that >> option >>>>> and no Kashmiri to >>>> date has >>>>> appealed >>> to the UN to pass >> a resolution to >>>>> include the option?) >>>> And how >>>>> >>> would you >> persuade Pakistan to allow a >>>>> plebiscite in areas under >>>> >>> their >>>>> >> control?  And what is your opinion of the >>>>> vast region of >>>> >>> >> Gilgit-Baltistan >>>>> that by Pakistani law has been severed from >>>>> the >>> >> state >>>> of Jammu & Kashmir and >>>>> where its citizens have NO >> fundamental >>>>> >>> rights as >>>> its constitutional status >>>>> has not as >> yet been >>> determined? >>>>> >>>>> I am >>>>> >>>> asking these questions not to >> score points but >>> for us to locate what is >>>>> >>>>> >>>> moral or desirable >> within what is real and >>> possible not just for >>>> Kashmiris >>>>> >>>>> who >> are but a small part of the >>> state, but of all the people >>>> of Jammu >> & >>>>> >>>>> Kashmir. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>> >> Sonia >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> My question is, >> what do we >>> do >>>>> next. I think that this means that the >>>> people >>>>>> >> 'learn' to USE >>> them, to >>>>> compel them to come to a degree of >>>> >> moderation in >>>>>> action, >>> and a greater, >>>>> more imaginative radicalism >> in >>>> terms of >>> conceptions. >>>>>> That is why, the >>>>> current situation >> in Kashmir, >>>> where >>> the 'Leaders' are being >>>>>> 'Led' by people >>>>> is >> interesting to me. I >>>> >>> find it POSITIVE that they have to do >>>>>> >> flip-flops so >>>>> often, from >>>> >>> Hartal-to-No Hartal- to Hartal again. >> This shows >>>>>> that they are >>>>> NOT >>>> >>> running the street. Things are >> unpredictable. The change in >>>>>> the >>>>> >>>> >>> 'temperature' of SAS >> Geelani's statements may be as much due to the >>>> >>> fact >>>>>> >>>>> that he >> is no longer in a position to call all the shots. >>>> >>> Therefore, he >> has >>>>>> >>>>> less to lose by 'changing' his tenor. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>> There >>>> >> is a way in which the >>>>> language of politics has changed, and it >>> >> has >>>>>> >>>> changed because of the way in >>>>> which people are >> communicating >>> on all sorts >>>> of >>>>>> fora. Though they may, out >>>>> of >> affection, still say >>> that only Geelani >>>> will do >>>>>> the Tarjumani, the >> truth >>>>> is, everyone is >>> doing their own >>>> Tarjumani now. and >>>>>> >> that is the hardest nut >>>>> for the >>> Government of India >>>> to crack. As >> an anarchist, >>>>>> I find this >>>>> >>> situation, of the actual, >>>> >> concrete, refusal of 'representational >>>>>> forms >>> of >>>>> politics' . >> however >>>> ephemeral it might be at present, quite >>>>>> >>> delightful. >> SO >>>>> much so, that a >>>> 'theatre' of leadership continues, >>> but >>>>>> >> actuality presumes a >>>>> totally >>>> different language of >>> >> politics. >>>>>> >>>>>> I find this a fertile situation, >>>>> >>>> one latent >> with >>> possibilities, for everyone. >>>>>> >>>>>> As for your other >>>> >> point, >>>>> about >>> how close we all were to the beginnings of the >>>>>> long >> road >>>> towards a >>>>> >>> solution with Musharraf's four point formula - I >> agree >>>>>> with >>>> you. But, >>> then, >>>>> it was the Government of India >> that scuttled that >>>>>> >>>> >>> possibility. If the >>>>> government of India >> had acted then, on what was on >>>> >>> offer, >>>>>> perhaps things >>>>> would >> not have come to the situation where >>> they >>>> are at present. >>>>>> Too >> much >>>>> has gone wrong since then. I am not >>> a >>>> nationalist of any >> sort, and to >>>>>> me, >>>>> ALL nation states, and all >>> nation >>>> states in >> waiting,  are ultimately the>> >>>>> actors of the tragedies >>> of their >>>> >> own making and choosing, >>>>>> So, basically, I >>>>> am not for the >>> moment >> saying >>>> and have never said that an >>>>>> independent >>>>> Kashmir will >>> >> be in any way a >>>> qualitative improvement (in terms of >>>>>> a state >>>>> >> form) >>> than an occupied >>>> Kashmir, but, It may at least lead to >> the >>>>>> >>> withdrawal >>>>> of the reality of >>>> a brutal >> occupation. >>>>>> >>>>>> For me, >>> whatever makes that >>>>> possible, I am >>>> >> prepared to accept. There were, >>> and >>>>>> remain many >>>>> possibilities >> that span >>>> the spectrum from where >>> the situation is >>>>>> at >> present >>>>> to Indpendence or >>>> accession to >>> Pakistan. But thinking >> about those >>>>>> >>>>> possibilities require >>>> all >>> Indians to stop >> thinking only out of the Indian>> >>>>> nationalist box. You >>>> >>> know very >> well, that many different kinds of >>>>> arrangement >>>>>> could >>> have >>>> >> been explored. including maximum autonomy under the >>>>> aegis of >>> a >>>>>> >> joint >>>> India-Pakistan guarantee, which is what I understand the >>>>> >>> >> Musharraf >>>>>> >>>> formula to have been, But the bottom line is, whatever >> is >>> worked >>>>> out has to >>>> be >>>>>> acceptable to the popular will, >> hence a >>> plebiscite with many >>>>> options >>>> on offer, >>>>>> and the >> freedom to campaign >>> for the many options in an >>>>> >>>> atomsphere free >> of >>>>>> coercion. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>> Realistically speaking, I do not >>>> >> think >>>>> that the Government of India has >>> the >>>>>> imagination any >> longer to >>>> try and >>>>> think out of the box. If it >>> can, that >> would >>>>>> be great. But, >>>> going by the >>>>> ostrich like attitude >>> of >> the Government in the >>>>>> face of the >>>> obvious >>>>> alienation of the >>> >> Kashmiri people, I very much doubt it. >>>>>> If >>>> they had that >>>>> >>> >> intelligence, they could have stopped the killings by the >>>>>> >>>> >> security >>> forces a >>>>> long time ago. >>>>>> >>>>>> Therefore, the only >> remaining >>>> >>> possibility for ending the >>>>> occupation seems to >>>>>> me >> to be >>> independence >>>> for Kashmir, in the short term, >>>>> under the >>> >> custodianship >>>>>> of the United >>>> Nations, like happened in >> Kosovo.Of >>>>> >>> course, I strongly assert >>>>>> that the >>>> political road >> to this must be >>> through >>>>> non-violent means, through >>>>>> mass >>>> >> political participation, >>> of as many >>>>> different sections of the >>>> >> population >>>>>> as possible. It >>> will be painful, for >>>>> many Indians to >> accept, >>>> but in the long >>>>>> term, >>> and in the absence of any >>>>> >> other imaginative >>>> solutions thought through >>> by >>>>>> the Indian >> political elites >>>>> (that chance >>>> has come, and sadly, >>> gone) it will >> be >>>>>> in the best interests of >>>>> the >>>> people of India. Of >>> course, >> the challenge for the >>>>>> people of Kashmir >>>>> >>>> would be to think >>> >> through a vision of independence that does >>>>>> not have >>>> them >>>>> >> switch >>> slavery to Indian occupation to slavery to the >> Pakistani >>>>>> >>>> >>> militarist >>>>> elite. The challenge would be to come >> up with proposals for >>>> >>> a >>>>>> >>>>> demilitarized, non-aggressive >> Kashmir that can preserve its >>> cultural >>>> and >>>>>> >>>>> social openness >> and liberality, that can take back >>> displaced >>>> minorities, >>>>> and >>>>>> >> can offer them genuine, not token safety >>> and security. >>>> That is the >> hard >>>>> work >>>>>> that imaginative politics will >>> have to undertake >>>> >> in Kashmir. And we >>>>> should >>>>>> never stop expecting >>> and demanding >> that from >>>> all our Kashmiri >>>>> friends. I >>>>>> never, ever >>> cease >> doing so. >>>>>> >>>>>>  In the >>>> long term, this fact, >>>>> an Independent >>> >> Kashmir, could actually be the >>>>>> >>>> cornerstone of a broad South >>>>> >> Asian >>> Union (modelled on the EU) which >>>> could >>>>>> bring the >> different >>>>> >>> nationalities (there may be many by then) of >>>> South >> Asia >>>>>> under an >>>>> >>> arrangement of a free trade zone, a visa free >> zone, >>>> a customs and >>>>>> >>> tarrifs >>>>> union, a charter on shared >> ecological concerns, >>>> and >>> comprehensive >>>>>> >>>>> demilitarization. An >> independent Kashmir may be the >>>> >>> first step in that >>>>>> >>>>> direction. >> Of course this need not happen. >>> Things >>>> could get worse if >>>>> >> Kashmir >>>>>> separates. I am well aware and >>> cognizant of >>>> that >> possibility. But, >>>>> at least, >>>>>> once the dust and >>> din settles, in >> our >>>> lifetime, there is a >>>>> likelihood that >>>>>> once >>> everyone has >> climbed off >>>> their nationalist high >>>>> horses, things might >>> be >>>>>> >> worked out, amicably and >>>> reasonably between all the >>>>> stake >>> holders >> of a future >>>>>> free association >>>> of South Asian States and >>>>> >>> >> Territories. That, I think is the >>>>>> only >>>> guarantee for peace in our >>> >> region. I >>>>> know for certain that an India and >>>>>> >>>> Pakistan that >>> >> continue to hold on to >>>>> their respective fragments of Jammu >>>> >> and >>>>>> >>> Kashmir, and an India that enforces >>>>> that occupation by >> military >>>> force >>> cannot >>>>>> contribute to peace in the >>>>> >> region. >>>>>> >>>>>> That is why, I >>>> >>> think that freedom for Kashmir, and >> also, >>>>> incidentally for >>>>>> Tibet, >>> is >>>> key to long term peace and >> stability in Asia, >>>>> because both >>> these >>>>>> >>>> developments would >> reduce the necessity of the big >>>>> poweres >>> of tomorrow - >>>> China >>>>>> >> and India and to a lesser extent - Pakistan >>>>> >>> from being aggressive >>>> >> nuclear >>>>>> powered rivals, and would perhaps, >>> perhaps, >>>>> open out the >> true >>>> possibility of >>>>>> what a worthwhile Asian >>> Century really >>>>> >> ought to be like. >>>> Otherwise, I am >>>>>> afraid that we >>> will replay the >> disasters >>>>> of the >>>> European history of the >>>>>> Twentieth >>> Century, >> from the First World War >>>>> >>>> onwards, on the soil of Twenty >>>>>> >>> >> First Century Asia. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I hope i >>>> have >>>>> made myself >>> >> clear >>>>>> >>>>>> best, >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>> >> Shuddha >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On >>>>> 23-Oct-10, at >> 7:45 PM, >>> SJabbar >>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Sorry for cross-posting but I >>>>> >> sent this >>> message out in the >>>> morning as a >>>>>>> response to Shuddha¹s >> 2nd post >>>>> >>> but received an automated >>>> email saying my >>>>>>> post had >> to be reviewed by >>> the >>>>> moderator.  Since I >>>> haven¹t received >> a >>>>>>> response (Monica??!) I >>> assume it >>>>> was not approved >>>> or got >> lost in the vast >>>>>>> belly of the >>> Sarai computer! >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> ------------------------------------- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Shuddha, let us >>> >> take >>>> your >>>>> arguments and apply them to the other side.  Modi >>>>>>> >>> >> belongs to a >>>> political >>>>> party that was in power and he was at the >> helm >>> when >>>>>>> the 2002 >>>> Gujarat >>>>> carnage took place.  He may not >> have >>> explicitly directed it >>>>>>> >>>> but he >>>>> certainly presided over >> the >>> violence.  What Modi is like as a >>>> person, >>>>>>> >>>>> whether he is >> gentle, >>> cultured, cries at the funeral of his >>>> friends or >> his >>>>>>> >>>>> rivals are >>> of no concern to me  (It is well known that >>>> >> Goebbels was a >>>>>>> >>>>> >>> cultured man and had a refined taste in music >> and the >>>> arts and of >>> course >>>>>>> >>>>> Jinnah ate ham sandwiches). What >> matters to me is >>>> that the >>> man presided >>>>> over >>>>>>> the worst kind >> of violence and has refused >>>> to, >>> till date, condemn >>>>> it >>>>>>> >> unambiguously.  Instead he and his party >>>> >>> continue to cite the >>>>> >> economic >>>>>>> progress of Muslims in Gujarat to >>>> >>> counter it.  The >> subtext of >>>>> this‹ and this >>>>>>> is a South Asian >>> disease‹ >>>> is let >> us forget the past, >>>>> galtiyan dono taraf se >>>>>>> huin >>> hain >>>> >> (³action-reaction²), and let us move on. >>>>>  Whether it is the >>>>>>> >>> >> various >>>> political parties in India who have incited, >>>>> controlled >> and >>> presided >>>>>>> >>>> over the worst communal or sectarian violence >> from >>>>> the >>> 1930¹s to the >>>> present >>>>>>> day, or the Pakistani army >> role in the mass >>>>> >>> rapes of >>>> Bangladesh or the Sri >>>>>>> Lankan >> army¹s role against Tamil >>> civilians, >>>>> >>>> every political party in >> these >>>>>>> countries seem to be >>> inflicted by the >>>> same >>>>> >> disease. >>>>>>> Having said that, I believe it is >>> the role of civil >>>> >> society to be >>>>> vigilant, >>>>>>> to be rigorous, to not >>> succumb to the >> same >>>> logic. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I know >>>>> that you have been >>> critical of >> fundamentalist >>>> politics in this forum >>>>>>> and >>>>> others, >>> whether >> it is Hindutva or Islamist >>>> and that is why it surprised >>>>>>> >>> me >>>>> >> to read your post on the LTG event. >>>>  You say ³You may be right when >>> >> you>>> >>>>> say that SAS Geelani may be saying >>>> one thing in Delhi and >>> >> another in >>>>>>> >>>>> Srinagar.  I am not here to judge >>>> the sincerity, >> or >>> lack of,  or >>>>> ambiguity, >>>>>>> of these statements.²  Why >>>> are >> you not >>> here to judge the >>>>> sincerity or lack >>>>>>> thereof of >> these >>>> statements? >>>  Surely, one is always >>>>> judging political >>>>>>> >> parties when they >>>> claim >>> one or another thing?  How does >>>>> one align >> oneself >>>>>>> politically if >>>> >>> one goes simply by manifestos and not >> by >>>>> actions?  Judging >>>>>>> and >>>> >>> evaluating is a constant process. >>  Mamta Bannerjee >>>>> may have been >>> one >>>>>>> >>>> thing as a member of the >> opposition but how will she be >>>>> when >>> she comes >>>> to >>>>>>> power? >>  One reads her statements, one watches >>> carefully >>>>> her >>>> >> actions >>>>>>> following her statements.  If they don¹t >>> gel, we believe >> her >>>>> >>>> to be >>>>>>> insincere. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You write: ³I am >>> amazed >> that this recognition >>>> is >>>>> not getting the space I >>>>>>> think it >>> >> deserves, simply as a NEWS story. >>>> ³ Do >>>>> you remember Atal >> Behari >>>>>>> >>> Vajpayee shed tears after the demolition >>>> of the >>>>> >> Babri Masjid and >>> Advani >>>>>>> described it as ³the saddest day of his >>>> >> life.² >>>>> Should >>> these isolated moments >>>>>>> and statements be >> highlighted and >>>> >>> privileged >>>>> as representing the 2 men¹s >>>>>>> >> position on the Babri Masjid >>> or >>>> should one >>>>> judge them over a >> longer period >>>>>>> of time, weighing >>> their >>>> statements and >>>>> their >> actions? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As for Mr. Geelani and >>> evaluating >>>> his actions, >> do you >>>>> believe a responsible >>>>>>> leader ought >>> to lead from >>>> the >> front or give calls to >>>>> his followers to engage >>>>>>> >>> in actions >> that >>>> will cause injury or even death >>>>> from the safety of his >>> >> home? >>>>>>> Mr. >>>> Geelani is fully aware that in any part >>>>> of this >> planet >>> if you pelt >>>>>>> >>>> stones at a man with a gun, there is a >> fair >>>>> chance >>> that the man with the >>>> gun >>>>>>> is going to >> retaliate.  When he was >>>>> >>> released from jail he made a >>>> fine >>>>>>> >> statement calling for the end of >>> the >>>>> hartaal calendar, saying >>>> that >> this was >>>>>>> not the way forward, >>> that these >>>>> protests could not >> be >>>> sustained, that life >>>>>>> could not >>> come to a standstill >>>>> >> (btw, the Sopore >>>> fruit mandi, his >>>>>>> >>> constituency, continued to >> function >>>>> through this >>>> entire period >>> hartaal >>>>>>> calendar or >> not).  These were wise >>>>> words from a >>>> man who >>> has been in >> politics >>>>>>> for years.  Wise words or the >>>>> thinking of >>>> >>> the ISI, >> I¹m not sure because the >>>>>>> words were echoed by Syed >>>>> >>>> >>> >> Salahuddin.  What follows is interesting: >>>>>>> Salahuddin¹s effigy is >>> >> burnt >>>> and >>>>> a rumour is floated that Mr. Geelani is >>>>>>> selling out >> to >>> Omar >>>> Abdullah. >>>>>  Does Mr. Geelani stand by his words?  Does >> he >>>>>>> do >>> what >>>> Gandhi does after >>>>> Chauri Chaura?  No, of course >> not.  He does >>> a >>>>>>> total >>>> U-turn and starts >>>>> competing with >> Masrat Alam on the >>> calendars, >>>>>>> >>>> subjecting the people of the >>>>> >> valley to more misery. >>>  What do ordinary >>>>>>> >>>> Kashmiris feel about >> the >>>>> continuation of this >>> absurd form of protest >>>> where >>>>>>> they >> and not the >>>>> Government of India >>> suffer?  You may find the >>>> answer >> in the >>>>>>> fact that >>>>> there was not a >>> single protest when Masrat >>>> >> Alam was arrested. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Again >>>>> Mr. >>> Geelani saying he >> Œpersonally¹ >>>> favours the accession to Pakistan >>>>>>> >>> but >>>>> will >> Œabide by¹ what the people >>>> of J&K want is neither here nor >>> >> there. >>>>>>> >>>>> What you see as a maturing >>>> position may be read as >> an >>> opportunistic one >>>>>>> >>>>> until such time as it is >>>> tested.  As I >> have >>> already shown in my last post >>>>>>> >>>>> Mr. Geelani, his >>>> >> political party >>> and his ideology have since the mid-90¹s >>>>>>> >>>>> shown >> no such >>>> respectful >>> accommodation of the political views of others. >>>>> >>  In >>>>>>> fact >>>> any >>> divergence from this view has been silenced by the >> bullet. >>>>>  If >>>> >>> this >>>>>>> is someone¹s history‹ and as much as I >> should wish it >>> otherwise-- >>>>> >>>> it is >>>>>>> very, very difficult for >> me to suspend my >>> cynicism and turn >>>>> >>>> enthusiastic >>>>>>> cartwheels >> on the basis of one >>> speech to a select audience >>>> in >>>>> New >> Delhi. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> With reference to >>> your point about borders:  The >>>> >> GoI >>>>> acknowledges that >>>>>>> Kashmir is >>> an ³issue² between India >> and >>>> Pakistan.  As I >>>>> have mentioned in my >>>>>>> >>> first post, it >> objects to the >>>> word ³dispute² as it >>>>> >>> internationalizes >>>>>>> >> Kashmir, ignores the Simla >>>> Agreement and takes it >>> out of >>>>> the >> domain of >>>>>>> bilateral talks back to >>>> the UN.  If you want >>> my >> personal >>>>> opinion on this >>>>>>> (and I have argued on >>>> this list in >>> >> the past), I agree with >>>>> this stand.  I >>>>>>> see the UN as a >>>> >> forum >>> where, sadly, world powers have >>>>> always manipulated >>>>>>> >> nations and >>>> it >>> certainly does not have the moral >>>>> standing after >> Iraq and >>>>>>> >>>> >>> Afghanistan to really mediate anywhere in the >>>>> >> world.  India and >>>> >>> Pakistan >>>>>>> need to, and can settle the issue >> taking into >>>>> account >>> the >>>> wishes of all the >>>>>>> people of J&K as >> it stood in 1947.  As I >>>>> >>> have argued >>>> in the past and as >>>>>>> >> Gen.Musharraf recently said on an >>> NDTV >>>>> interview >>>> that India and >> Pakistan >>>>>>> were very close to >>> drafting an agreement >>>>> based >>>> on >> his 4-point formula. >>>>>>> >>> Interestingly, various interpretations of >>>>> >> this >>>> 4-point formula were >>> thrown >>>>>>> up by all shades of political >> parties but >>>>> >>>> there was a >>> broad consensus on >>>>>>> this whether >> from the mainstream groups >>>> or >>>>> the >>> separatists.  The only >> leader >>>>>>> that rejected this was Mr. >>>> Geelani >>> who >>>>> insisted that >> the Kashmir ³dispute² >>>>>>> be solved on the UN >>>> >>> Resolutions of >>>>> >> 1948! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As for borders themselves: what is >>> Europe >>>> today but >> a borderless >>>>> continent? >>>>>>> You critique the idea of >>> the >>>> >> nation-state and yet you want to >>>>> re-invent the >>>>>>> wheel by >>> >> supporting yet >>>> another nation-state in independent >>>>> Kashmir. >>  Why, >>>>>>> >>> when a 21st c. >>>> solution in the 4-point formula, similar >> to >>>>> the form >>> and >>>>>>> content of >>>> the EU, could be in the >> making? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best >>>>> >>> wishes, >>>>>>> >>>> >> Sonia >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 22/10/10 8:10 PM, >>> "Shuddhabrata >> Sengupta" >>>>> >>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>> Dear >> Sonia, (don't worry Pawan, its >>>> a >>>>> lot less than '3000 >>> >> lines') >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I said - " I do not agree with >>>> much of >>>>> >> what >>> Geelani Saheb represents >>>>>>>> politically, or ideologically, >>>> >> but I >>> have >>>>> no hesitation in saying that what >>>>>>>> he >>>>>>>> said >> yesterday, >>>> >>> was surprising >>>>> for its gentleness, for its >> consideration, >>>>>>>> >>> for >>>>>>>> >>>> its moderation, even >>>>> for its >> liberality and open >>> heartedness." >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> What part of this >> sentence >>>>> seems to suggest >>> that I am 'aligning' with >>>> SAS >>>>>>>> >> Geelani. The 'I do not >>>>> agree with >>> much' does not seem to indicate >>>> >> alignment, >>>>>>>> or endorsement to >>>>> me. >>> The rest of the statement is >> a >>>> statement of fact. Were >>>>>>>> SAS Geelani >>> to >>>>> have said words >> that were >>>> inflammatory yesterday, I would not >>>>>>>> >>> have >>>>> >> hesitated to said that he >>>> had. Allow me to elaborate by way of >>> >> an >>>>>>>> >>>>> example >>>>>>>> - I have never >>>> been in agreement with >> the >>> political philosophy >>>>> of >>>>>>>> M.K.Gandhi, >>>>>>>> >>>> but I >> never make the >>> mistake of saying that my >>>>> disagreement with Gandhi >>>> >> (my >>>>>>>> refusal >>> to endorse Gandhian ideology and >>>>> what it means >>>> >> politically) >>> amounts >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> my failure to recognize >>>>> >> Gandhi's >>>> gentleness, >>> his consideration, his >>>>>>>> moderation, his >> liberality >>>>> and its >>>> open >>> heartedness. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>  I have been >> strongly critical Islamist >>>>> >>>> >>> politics, including on this >> forum, >>>>>>>> whenever I have considered it >>>>> >>>> >>> necessary to do so. >> That is one thing, and it >>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>> where I >>> would >>>>> >>>> differ >> from SAS Geelani, explicitly, categorically, unless >>> he >>>>>>>> makes >> a >>>>> >>>> statement, like the Mirwaiz did recently, abjuring an >>> >> 'Islamist >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>> future >>>>>>>> for Kashmir'. But to say that SAS >>> >> Geelani has never expressed >>>>> >>>> regret for the >>>>>>>> violence that >> rocked >>> even the pro-Azadi camp from >>>> within >>>>> is specious. >>>>>>>> >> Kashmiri >>>>>>>> >>> polticians of all hues routinely >>>> issue >>>>> >> condemnations of incidents >>> of >>>>>>>> terrorism, and targetted >>>> >> assasinations. >>>>> Geelani, to my >>> knowledge, has not >>>>>>>> been >>>>>>>> >> any >>>> exception. Eyewitnesses >>>>> speak >>> of seeing him weeping at Abdul >> Ghani >>>>>>>> >>>> Lone's >>>>>>>> funeral. I do >>> not >>>>> know, nor do I >> care, whether these tears >>>> were genuine. All >>>>>>>> >>> I >>>>>>>> am >>>>> >> saying is that if the man has not said >>>> that he celebrates >>> the assasins >> of>>>> >>>>> the elder Mirwaiz, or Abdul Ghani >>>> Lone, or the >>> attacks on >> Dr. Shameema >>>>> that >>>>>>>> you mention, then, it is >>>> unfair to >>> >> accuse him of 'Not Saying' the >>>>> 'not >>>>>>>> saying'. He condemns >>>> >>> >> assasinations. He does not celebrate the >>>>> assasin. This >>>>>>>> means >> that >>> he >>>> cannot be accused of being the source of the >>>>> >> assasination, >>>>>>>> >>> unless >>>> other concrete evidence is brought to bear >> upon the >>>>> >>> case. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>  You >>>> may be right when you say that >> SAS Geelani may be >>> saying >>>>> one thing in >>>>>>>> >>>> Delhi and another >> in Srinagar.  I am not >>> here to judge the >>>>> sincerity, >>>> or >>>>>>>> >> lack >>>>>>>> of,  or ambiguity, >>> of these statements. I think >>>>> >>>> >> politically, the significant >>>>>>>> thing >>> is that whatever he may have >> said >>>> in >>>>> the past, SAS Geelani, HAS >>> to >>>>>>>> speak >>>>>>>> a >> language today that is >>>> not >>>>> secterian. He may >>> have done so in the >> past. Let >>>>>>>> us remember that >>>> he was >>>>> an elected >>> member of the >> J&K assembly for more than >>>>>>>> one term >>>> in the past, >>>>> >>> and that >> means he had to swear fealty of some sort to >>>>>>>> >>>> the Indian >>>>> >>> >> constitution. Judging by this, we should be able to evaluate >>>> >> his >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>> 'Islamist' commitments in the light of his sometime >> loyalty to >>>> an >>>>> >>> apparently >>>>>>>> secular constitution. If the sake >> of argument, we say >>>> >>> that we >>>>> should take >>>>>>>> seriously what >> came 'after' as representing >>> the >>>> 'maturing' of >>>>> his >> position, >>>>>>>> then, if his avowedly >>> 'secterian' / >>>> Islamist / >> Pro-Pakistan >>>>> phase came after >>>>>>>> his phase >>> as an MLA of the >>>> >> J&K assembly, then, so too >>>>> has this 'current' >>>>>>>> >>> phase >>>>>>>> >> come >>>> 'after' his secterian posturing. I am >>>>> not the one who >>> needs >> to split >>>>>>>> >>>> these hairs, but clearly, if some emphasis >>>>> is >>> >> bieng given to chronology as >>>> a >>>>>>>> way of attributing the man's >>> >> politics >>>>> to the man's biography, then >>>> let's >>>>>>>> stay >>>>>>>> >>> >> consistent, and say, that if >>>>> the current SAS Geelani >>>> is saying >> things >>> that >>>>>>>> don't seem to require the >>>>> automatic assumption >>>> >> of an Isamic >>> state (which is >>>>>>>> what we would expect >>>>> from the >> 'old' >>>> Geelani, >>> then, we have every reason to >>>>>>>> take it as >>>>> >> seriously as when >>>> he >>> made his decision to abandon 'mainstream' >>>>>>>> >> electoral >>>>> politics in >>>> >>> Jammu and Kashmir for the hardline >> fringe. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Indeed, I >>>>> would >>> go >>>> so far as to say that >> as far as we are concerned, we >>>>>>>> >>> should >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>> assume, and >> hold him, and his followers, responsible to >>> the Œevolution¹>> >>>> >> of >>>>>>>> their statements, as they occur. If he goes >>> back on the >> broad, >>>>> >>>> liberal >>>>>>>> nature >>>>>>>> of a vision for Azad >>> kashmir >> (which, >>>> incidentally, >>>>> among other things, >>>>>>>> included the >>> >> somewhat whimsical >>>> detail of a provision >>>>> of compensation >> for >>>>>>>> >>> damages were a believing >>>> Muslim to damage a bottle of >>>>> >> alchohl of >>> a >>>>>>>> non-believer), then, we >>>> should hold him >> responsible for that >>>>> >>> regression. He >>>>>>>> made a speech >>>> that was >> refreshingly free of >>> Islamist >>>>> rhetoric yesterday, >>>>>>>> >> that >>>>>>>> >>>> spoke in the broad >>> terms of 'Insaaniyat' - >>>>> Humanity. >> If Atal Behari >>>> Vajpayee >>>>>>>> can be >>> appreciated, as indeed he >> should >>>>> have been, for >>>> speaking in terms >>> of >>>>>>>> 'Insaaniyat' >> when it came to thinking >>>>> about the >>>> solution to >>> the question >> of >>>>>>>> Jammu and Kashmir, why could the >>>>> >>>> mainstream >>> media not >> pick up the fact that >>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>> least in stated >>>> terms, >>>>> >>> >> SAS Geelani was making as major a move, by invoking >>>>>>>> >>>> >> 'Insaaniyat' >>> over >>>>> secterian considerations, exactly as Vajpayee >> had >>>> done. >>>>>>>> >>> Recognizing this >>>>> does not require us to align >> with, or endorse, >>>> either >>> SAS >>>>>>>> Geelani, or >>>>> Atal Behari >> Vajpayee, it simply requires us to >>>> >>> register a fact >>>>>>>> that a >>>>> >> major move is in process. That politics >>> is >>>> being transformed, even >> as >>>>>>>> we >>>>> speak. I am amazed that this >>>> >>> recognition is being >> painted as 'alignment, >>>>>>>> >>>>> or >>>>>>>> endorsement'. >>> I >>>> am >> amazed that this recognition is not getting the >>>>> space I >>>>>>>> >>> think >> it >>>> deserves, simply as a NEWS story. SAS Geelani says he >>>>> wishes >>> >> India >>>>>>>> >>>> to >>>>>>>> be a strong country, a regional power, that >> he >>>>> >>> supports (in >>>> principle) a >>>>>>>> future permanent place for >> India on the >>> United >>>>> Natons >>>> Security Council, once >>>>>>>> Kashmir >> is liberated   - in >>> other words, he >>>>> is >>>> saying, let us go, and >> we >>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>> stand >>> with you, dont you think >>>>> >>>> this is BIG >> news. That is what I was >>> trying >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> talk about. Trying >>>> >> to >>>>> talk about does not make >>> me a camp follower of SAS >>>>>>>> Geelani >> or any >>>> other >>>>> politician, in >>> India, Kashmir, or >> elsewhere. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> My sense is, >>>> the >>>>> movement >>> for Azadi in >> Kashmir has gone beyond the persona >>>>>>>> >>>> of >>>>>>>> SAS >>>>> >>> >> Geelani, and while he is universally respected for his >>>> integrity >>> >> and >>>>>>>> >>>>> incorruptability, his word is by no means, Œlaw¹. He, >>>> >> and >>> other leaders >>>>> like >>>>>>>> him, are being Œled¹ as much as they >> are >>>> >>> Œleading¹ the people they >>>>> claim to >>>>>>>> represent. Part of >> this >>> process >>>> means giving up the secterian >>>>> rhetoric that >>>>>>>> >> people in >>> Kashmir >>>> genuinely feel alienated by. We should >>>>> welcome >> this >>>>>>>> >>>> >>> development. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Now, I come to the views that >> he >>>>> holds >>> regarding >>>> independence and merger >>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>> >> Pakistan. He has >>> said, >>>>> including >>>> in his recent interview with >> Seema Mustafa >>>>>>>> that >>> he PERSONALLY >>>>> prefers >>>> accession to >> Pakistan, but that he is willing >>> to >>>>>>>> abide by >>>>> whatever >>>> the >> people of Jammu and Kashmir decide. I >>> do not think >>>>>>>> >> that >>>>>>>> >>>>> the >>>> people of Jammu and Kashmir have a >>> future with >> Pakistan.So, I >>>>> >>>> disagree >>>>>>>> with SAS Geelani's personal >>> view. >> I strongly argue for a >>>>> >>>> demilitarized, >>>>>>>> independent, secular >>> >> Jammu and Kashmir. That makes me >>>>> >>>> someone who does not >>>>>>>> >> endorse >>> SAS Geelani's position. Let's look at >>>> thigns >>>>> this way, had >> this >>> been >>>>>>>> 1935, I would probably have not been >>>> in >> agreement >>>>> with M.K. >>> Gandhi's vision >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> what he thought >> the >>>> future of South >>>>> >>> Asia and India ought to be. But that >>>>>>>> >> does >>>>>>>> not >>>> mean that I >>> would >>>>> dismiss Gandhi as irrelevant, >> or someone to be >>>> mocked >>>>>>>> and >>> reviled. I >>>>> would engage with >> him politicially, as many >>>> currents in >>> India >>>>>>>> at that >>>>> time >> did. They were not uncritical of >>>> Gandhi (from >>> the left and >> the >>>>>>>> >>>>> right) but they knew that Gandhi's >>>> voice had a >>> certain >> resonance. I think>>>> >>>>> that >>>>>>>> the attitude that >>>> people >>> have >> towards SAS Geelani is not dissimilar. >>>>> They >>>>>>>> may >>>>>>>> >> not >>>> >>> agree with him on many counts, and most Kashmiris that >>>>> I >> know >>>> >>> personally >>>>>>>> would fit that description. But none would want >> to >>>>> >>> dismiss >>>> or demonize him. >>>>>>>> Primarily because of his >> unwillingness to >>> be an >>>>> >>>> occasional pawn in the hands >>>>>>>> of >> the >>> occupation. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>  I have yet >>>> to >>>>> come across an >> Indian >>> politician who is willing to say, on >>>>>>>> >>>> the >>>>>>>> >>>>> >> record, that he >>> PERSONALLY prefers that Jammu and Kashmir stay >>>> >> with >>>>> India, >>>>>>>> >>> but >>>>>>>> will respect whatever the people of >> Jammu and >>>> Kashmir >>>>> decide >>> in a free and >>>>>>>> fair plebiscite. If >> that were to be the >>>> case, then >>>>> >>> we would get much further >>>>>>>> >> than where we are today in >>>> Kashmir. I have >>> no >>>>> quarrel with those >> who want >>>>>>>> Kashmir to stay in >>>> India. Theirs >>> is a point >>>>> of >> view. It needs to be freely >>>>>>>> heard, freely >>>> debated, >>> and if >> is >>>>> convincing to the people of Jammu and >>>>>>>> Kashmir, >>>> best of >>> >> luck to those who >>>>> carry the day. What I am against is >>>>>>>> >>>> >>> >> maintaining Jammu and Kashmir as >>>>> parts of the Indian Union by >> force. >>>> >>> By >>>>>>>> violence. By occupation. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >> Finally, I come to the >>> five >>>> points, and whether or not, sticking to >> the >>>>>>>> >>>>> point >>>>>>>> >>> about Kashmir >>>> being disputed is an >> obstacle. Lets face facts. >>>>> Kashmir >>> is a >>>>>>>> dispute. >>>> Every >> single map of the world that is not printed >>>>> >>> in India shows >>>>>>>> >>>> >> it, >>>>>>>> visually, as a disputed territory. That is >>> why >>>>> the >> Government of >>>> India has >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> put its silly ink >>> stamp on >> atlases. >>>>> That is why >>>> there is a United Nations >>>>>>>> Observer >>> >> group in Delhi, Islamabad >>>>> and >>>> Srinagar. United Nations >> observers >>>>>>>> >>> are >>>>>>>> present, in the same >>>> way, >>>>> in say >> Cyprus (another dispute) >>> Israel / >>>>>>>> Palestine, >>>>>>>> >>>> another >> dispute. >>>>> What is the big deal >>> in saying, yes, it is a dispute. >>>> >> Will >>>>>>>> India >>>>> disappear if the >>> public secret is admitted to? As >> far as I >>>> am >>>>>>>> >>>>> concerned >>>>>>>> >>> borders, and sovereignty, >> are less important than >>>> the lives of >>>>> people. >>> If >>>>>>>> discussing >> a border, and what it means, can >>>> be a method to >>>>> >>> save lives, >> then >>>>>>>> refusing to do so, is a crime. The >>>> Government of >>> >> India >>>>> can offer to >>>>>>>> 'discuss' >>>>>>>> - sovereignty over >>>> >> those >>> areas of the >>>>> India-Tibet border that were taken by >>>>>>>> >> force >>>> majeure >>> by British Imperial >>>>> power, but it will sacrifice the >> lives of >>>>>>>> >>>> >>> hundreds of thousands of people >>>>> in order to keep >> the fetish of the >>>> >>> Indian >>>>>>>> Union's  soveriegnty and >>>>> >> integrity alive in the case of >>> Jammu >>>> and Kashmir. >>>>>>>> This policy >> seems to me >>>>> to be totally >>> criminal and >>>> misguided. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >> Borders are made by human >>>>> beings, >>> and can be changed >>>> by human >> beings. The >>>>>>>> geographical expression >>>>> >>> of the Union of India >> is >>>> not divinely ordained. >>>>>>>> Sensible people all >>> over >>>>> the >> world, understand >>>> that maps can change, and >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>> >>> they >> do change. >>>>> We hope that the >>>> map of China can someday be drawn >>> >> in >>>>>>>> Chinese >>>>>>>> school >>>>> text books >>>> without engulfing Tibet. >> If >>> that can be a reasonable >>>>>>>> >>>>> desire, >>>>>>>> >>>> and not be >> seen as an >>> 'obstruction', why should a similar desire >>>>> be seen >>>> >> as >>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>> >>> obstruction in the case of India and Jammu and >>>>> >> Kashmir. >>>> Arnab >>> Goswami >>>>>>>> repeatedly used the word 'splittist' >> yestyerday to >>>>> >>>> refer >>> to all those who >>>>>>>> were >>>>>>>> speaking >> at the meeting at the LTG >>>>> >>>> >>> yesterday. A word that is used by >> the >>>>>>>> Chinese government and the >>>> >>> Chinese >>>>> Communist Party >> whenever it refers to the >>>>>>>> Dalai Lama and >>> the >>>> movement for >>>>> >> a free Tibet. Are we (our government, >>>>>>>> >>> sections >>>>>>>> of >>>> our >> media) aping >>>>> the Chinese government and the >>> behemoth of the >>>> >> Chinese >>>>>>>> Communist Party in >>>>> aligning and >>> endorsing ourselves >> with the >>>> fetish of a man >>>>>>>> made fiction of >>>>> >>> sovereignty. I >> should hope that we >>>> can do better than that. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>> best >>>>> >> regards, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>> >> Shuddha >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >> >>> _________________________________________ >>>>>>> reader-list: an >> open >>>> >>> discussion >>>>> list on media and the city. >>>>>>> Critiques & >>> >> Collaborations >>>>>>> >>>> To subscribe: >>>>> send an email to >>> >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> subscribe >>>>>>> in the >>>>> subject >>> >> header. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe: >>>>> >>>> >>> >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>>>> List >> archive: >>>>> >>>> >>> >> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >> >>>>> >>> >>>> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >>>>>>> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >>>>>>> >> Raqs >>> Media >>>>> >>>> Collective >>>>>>> shuddha at sarai.net >>>>>>> >>> >> www.sarai.net >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> www.raqsmediacollective.net >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> _________________________________________ >>>>> reader-list: an open >>>> >>> >> discussion >>>>> list on media and the city. >>>>> Critiques & >> Collaborations >>>>> >>> To >>>> subscribe: send >>>>> an email to >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in >>>> the subject >>>>> >> header. >>>>> To unsubscribe: >>>>> >>>> >>> >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>> List >> archive: >>>>> >>>> >>> >> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> >>>> >>> >> ___________________________ >>>>> ______________ >>>> reader-list: an >> open >>>> >>> discussion list on media and the >>>>> city. >>>> Critiques & >> Collaborations >>>> >>> To >>>> subscribe: send an email to >>>>> >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in >>>> the subject header. >>>> >> To >>>>> unsubscribe: >>>> >>> >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List >> archive: >>>>> >>>> >>> >> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> _____________________ >>>> ____________________ >>> reader-list: an open >>> >> discussion list on media and the >>>> city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> >> To >>> subscribe: send an email to >>>> reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in >>> the subject header. >>> To >>>> unsubscribe: >>> >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: >>>> >>> >> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >>> >>> >> >> _____________________ >>> ____________________ >> reader-list: an open >> discussion list on media and the >>> city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To >> subscribe: send an email to >>> reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in >> the subject header. >> To >>> unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: >>> >> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> > _____________________ >> ____________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the >> city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To >> unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: >> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > From tapasrayx at gmail.com Wed Oct 27 14:49:09 2010 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray [Gmail]) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 14:49:09 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Statement by Arundhati Roy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No, just a member of the audience awestruck by your brilliance. On 27 October 2010 14:32, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > Are you the moderator? Just curious again. You indeed have a big hand. > > On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 2:31 PM, Tapas Ray [Gmail] wrote: > >> ps: I mean, to Aditya. >> >> On 27 October 2010 14:30, Tapas Ray [Gmail] wrote: >> > Really intelligent comment. Let's give him a big hand! >> > >> > On 27 October 2010 14:23, Aditya Raj Kaul >> wrote: >> >> Isn't she a Fiction writer? Or is she really a writer? Just curious. >> >> >> >> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 2:01 PM, Rajkamal Goswami < >> rajkamalgoswami at gmail.com >> >>> wrote: >> >> >> >>> I am just in awe of this woman. >> >>> >> >>> On 10/27/10, Tapas Ray [Gmail] wrote: >> >>> > Pheeta, >> >>> > >> >>> > No problem, and no need to apologise! >> >>> > >> >>> > Best, >> >>> > >> >>> > Tapas >> >>> > >> >>> > On 27 October 2010 09:07, Pheeta Ram wrote: >> >>> >> Dear Tapas >> >>> >> Actually the statement was sent to me by somebody. I forgot to check >> if >> >>> it >> >>> >> had already been published online; that's why there was no link. >> Thanks >> >>> >> for >> >>> >> reminding me the etiquettes of responsible online publishing. >> >>> >> I shall take care next time. >> >>> >> Pheeta Ram >> >>> >> >> >>> >> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 6:42 AM, Tapas Ray [Gmail] < >> tapasrayx at gmail.com >> >>> > >> >>> >> wrote: >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> Pheeta, >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> Thanks for this. I think it would be good if we gave the links >> along >> >>> >>> with any material from online sources that we might be posting. >> This >> >>> >>> one's is >> >>> >>> < >> >>> >> http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/arundhati-roys-statement-on-possible-sedition-case-62566 >> >>> >. >> >>> >>> As for offline sources (e.g., printed books, etc.), a mention of >> the >> >>> >>> source, as complete as possible, would be very helpful. >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> Thanks again. >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> Tapas >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> On 27 October 2010 02:10, Pheeta Ram wrote: >> >>> >>> > STATEMENT BY ARUNDHATI ROY >> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> > I write this from Srinagar, Kashmir. This morning’s papers say >> that I >> >>> >>> > may be arrested on charges of sedition for what I have said at >> recent >> >>> >>> > public meetings on Kashmir. I said what millions of people here >> say >> >>> >>> > every day. I said what I, as well as other commentators have >> written >> >>> >>> > and said for years. Anybody who cares to read the transcripts of >> my >> >>> >>> > speeches will see that they were fundamentally a call for >> justice. I >> >>> >>> > spoke about justice for the people of Kashmir who live under one >> of >> >>> >>> > the most brutal military occupations in the world; for Kashmiri >> >>> >>> > Pandits who live out the tragedy of having been driven out of >> their >> >>> >>> > homeland; for Dalit soldiers killed in Kashmir whose graves I >> visited >> >>> >>> > on garbage heaps in their villages in Cuddalore; for the Indian >> poor >> >>> >>> > who pay the price of this occupation in material ways and who are >> now >> >>> >>> > learning to live in the terror of what is becoming a police >> state. >> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> > Yesterday I traveled to Shopian, the apple-town in South Kashmir >> >>> which >> >>> >>> > had remained closed for 47 days last year in protest against the >> >>> >>> > brutal rape and murder of Asiya and Nilofer, the young women >> whose >> >>> >>> > bodies were found in a shallow stream near their homes and whose >> >>> >>> > murderers have still not been brought to justice. I met Shakeel, >> who >> >>> >>> > is Nilofer’s husband and Asiya’s brother.  We sat in a circle of >> >>> >>> > people crazed with grief and anger who had lost hope that they >> would >> >>> >>> > ever get ‘insaf’—justice—from India, and now believed that >> >>> >>> > Azadi—freedom— was their only hope. I met young stone pelters who >> had >> >>> >>> > been shot through their eyes. I traveled with a young man who >> told me >> >>> >>> > how three of his friends, teenagers in Anantnag district, had >> been >> >>> >>> > taken into custody and had their finger-nails pulled out as >> >>> punishment >> >>> >>> > for throwing stones. >> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> > In the papers some have accused me of giving ‘hate-speeches’, of >> >>> >>> > wanting India to break up. On the contrary, what I say comes from >> >>> love >> >>> >>> > and pride. It comes from not wanting people to be killed, raped, >> >>> >>> > imprisoned or have their finger-nails pulled out in order to >> force >> >>> >>> > them to say they are Indians. It comes from wanting to live in a >> >>> >>> > society that is striving to be a just one. Pity the nation that >> has >> >>> to >> >>> >>> > silence its writers for speaking their minds. Pity the nation >> that >> >>> >>> > needs to jail those who ask for justice, while communal killers, >> mass >> >>> >>> > murderers, corporate scamsters, looters, rapists, and those who >> prey >> >>> >>> > on the poorest of the poor, roam free. >> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> > Arundhati Roy >> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> > October 26 2010 >> >>> >>> > _________________________________________ >> >>> >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >>> >>> > Critiques & Collaborations >> >>> >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith >> >>> >>> > subscribe in the subject header. >> >>> >>> > To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >>> >>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >>> >>> _________________________________________ >> >>> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >>> >>> Critiques & Collaborations >> >>> >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >>> >>> subscribe in the subject header. >> >>> >>> To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >>> >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >>> >> >> >>> > _________________________________________ >> >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >>> > Critiques & Collaborations >> >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >>> subscribe >> >>> > in the subject header. >> >>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> -- >> >>> Rajkamal >> >>> _________________________________________ >> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >>> Critiques & Collaborations >> >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >>> subscribe in the subject header. >> >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >>> >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From tapasrayx at gmail.com Wed Oct 27 14:50:42 2010 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray [Gmail]) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 14:50:42 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Statement by Arundhati Roy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No, just a member of the audience awestruck by your brilliance. On 27 October 2010 14:32, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > Are you the moderator? Just curious again. You indeed have a big hand. > > On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 2:31 PM, Tapas Ray [Gmail] wrote: > >> ps: I mean, to Aditya. >> >> On 27 October 2010 14:30, Tapas Ray [Gmail] wrote: >> > Really intelligent comment. Let's give him a big hand! >> > >> > On 27 October 2010 14:23, Aditya Raj Kaul >> wrote: >> >> Isn't she a Fiction writer? Or is she really a writer? Just curious. >> >> >> >> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 2:01 PM, Rajkamal Goswami < >> rajkamalgoswami at gmail.com >> >>> wrote: >> >> >> >>> I am just in awe of this woman. >> >>> >> >>> On 10/27/10, Tapas Ray [Gmail] wrote: >> >>> > Pheeta, >> >>> > >> >>> > No problem, and no need to apologise! >> >>> > >> >>> > Best, >> >>> > >> >>> > Tapas >> >>> > >> >>> > On 27 October 2010 09:07, Pheeta Ram wrote: >> >>> >> Dear Tapas >> >>> >> Actually the statement was sent to me by somebody. I forgot to check >> if >> >>> it >> >>> >> had already been published online; that's why there was no link. >> Thanks >> >>> >> for >> >>> >> reminding me the etiquettes of responsible online publishing. >> >>> >> I shall take care next time. >> >>> >> Pheeta Ram >> >>> >> >> >>> >> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 6:42 AM, Tapas Ray [Gmail] < >> tapasrayx at gmail.com >> >>> > >> >>> >> wrote: >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> Pheeta, >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> Thanks for this. I think it would be good if we gave the links >> along >> >>> >>> with any material from online sources that we might be posting. >> This >> >>> >>> one's is >> >>> >>> < >> >>> >> http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/arundhati-roys-statement-on-possible-sedition-case-62566 >> >>> >. >> >>> >>> As for offline sources (e.g., printed books, etc.), a mention of >> the >> >>> >>> source, as complete as possible, would be very helpful. >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> Thanks again. >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> Tapas >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> On 27 October 2010 02:10, Pheeta Ram wrote: >> >>> >>> > STATEMENT BY ARUNDHATI ROY >> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> > I write this from Srinagar, Kashmir. This morning’s papers say >> that I >> >>> >>> > may be arrested on charges of sedition for what I have said at >> recent >> >>> >>> > public meetings on Kashmir. I said what millions of people here >> say >> >>> >>> > every day. I said what I, as well as other commentators have >> written >> >>> >>> > and said for years. Anybody who cares to read the transcripts of >> my >> >>> >>> > speeches will see that they were fundamentally a call for >> justice. I >> >>> >>> > spoke about justice for the people of Kashmir who live under one >> of >> >>> >>> > the most brutal military occupations in the world; for Kashmiri >> >>> >>> > Pandits who live out the tragedy of having been driven out of >> their >> >>> >>> > homeland; for Dalit soldiers killed in Kashmir whose graves I >> visited >> >>> >>> > on garbage heaps in their villages in Cuddalore; for the Indian >> poor >> >>> >>> > who pay the price of this occupation in material ways and who are >> now >> >>> >>> > learning to live in the terror of what is becoming a police >> state. >> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> > Yesterday I traveled to Shopian, the apple-town in South Kashmir >> >>> which >> >>> >>> > had remained closed for 47 days last year in protest against the >> >>> >>> > brutal rape and murder of Asiya and Nilofer, the young women >> whose >> >>> >>> > bodies were found in a shallow stream near their homes and whose >> >>> >>> > murderers have still not been brought to justice. I met Shakeel, >> who >> >>> >>> > is Nilofer’s husband and Asiya’s brother.  We sat in a circle of >> >>> >>> > people crazed with grief and anger who had lost hope that they >> would >> >>> >>> > ever get ‘insaf’—justice—from India, and now believed that >> >>> >>> > Azadi—freedom— was their only hope. I met young stone pelters who >> had >> >>> >>> > been shot through their eyes. I traveled with a young man who >> told me >> >>> >>> > how three of his friends, teenagers in Anantnag district, had >> been >> >>> >>> > taken into custody and had their finger-nails pulled out as >> >>> punishment >> >>> >>> > for throwing stones. >> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> > In the papers some have accused me of giving ‘hate-speeches’, of >> >>> >>> > wanting India to break up. On the contrary, what I say comes from >> >>> love >> >>> >>> > and pride. It comes from not wanting people to be killed, raped, >> >>> >>> > imprisoned or have their finger-nails pulled out in order to >> force >> >>> >>> > them to say they are Indians. It comes from wanting to live in a >> >>> >>> > society that is striving to be a just one. Pity the nation that >> has >> >>> to >> >>> >>> > silence its writers for speaking their minds. Pity the nation >> that >> >>> >>> > needs to jail those who ask for justice, while communal killers, >> mass >> >>> >>> > murderers, corporate scamsters, looters, rapists, and those who >> prey >> >>> >>> > on the poorest of the poor, roam free. >> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> > Arundhati Roy >> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> > October 26 2010 >> >>> >>> > _________________________________________ >> >>> >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >>> >>> > Critiques & Collaborations >> >>> >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith >> >>> >>> > subscribe in the subject header. >> >>> >>> > To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >>> >>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >>> >>> _________________________________________ >> >>> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >>> >>> Critiques & Collaborations >> >>> >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >>> >>> subscribe in the subject header. >> >>> >>> To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >>> >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >>> >> >> >>> > _________________________________________ >> >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >>> > Critiques & Collaborations >> >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >>> subscribe >> >>> > in the subject header. >> >>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> -- >> >>> Rajkamal >> >>> _________________________________________ >> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >>> Critiques & Collaborations >> >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >>> subscribe in the subject header. >> >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >>> >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rajkamalgoswami at gmail.com Wed Oct 27 15:14:20 2010 From: rajkamalgoswami at gmail.com (Rajkamal Goswami) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 15:14:20 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Statement by Arundhati Roy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Aditya I am sure yo know about her fictional work 1 novel & 1 screenplay. But I am not sure if you have read her non-fictional work. Well she didn't win booker for them but she won the "Sydney Peace Prize" and the "Sahitya Akademi award" which she politely refused. Her body of non fiction work is far greater (both in volume and quality) than her fictional work. I hope you have read her work. If not please read atleast the essential Roy viz "The greater common good", the "Algebra of Infinite justice", "Come September", Do Turkeys Enjoy Thanksgiving", "Peace is War", "Listening To Grasshoppers", "Shall We Leave It to the Experts?" and my favorite “The Ladies have feelings so…” You should definitely read the last one because it answers your query about the very questions that you have raised. Regarding a fiction writer being political, well all writers are political. That some chose to remain silent is also a political activity. That Ms. Roy choses to write her politics and throw it open to ideas and criticism is the best thing I really like about her. Besides she is also indulged in field activism, giving her voice to the voiceless and rooting for real democracy. Thanks r On 10/27/10, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > Are you the moderator? Just curious again. You indeed have a big hand. > > On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 2:31 PM, Tapas Ray [Gmail] > wrote: > >> ps: I mean, to Aditya. >> >> On 27 October 2010 14:30, Tapas Ray [Gmail] wrote: >> > Really intelligent comment. Let's give him a big hand! >> > >> > On 27 October 2010 14:23, Aditya Raj Kaul >> wrote: >> >> Isn't she a Fiction writer? Or is she really a writer? Just curious. >> >> >> >> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 2:01 PM, Rajkamal Goswami < >> rajkamalgoswami at gmail.com >> >>> wrote: >> >> >> >>> I am just in awe of this woman. >> >>> >> >>> On 10/27/10, Tapas Ray [Gmail] wrote: >> >>> > Pheeta, >> >>> > >> >>> > No problem, and no need to apologise! >> >>> > >> >>> > Best, >> >>> > >> >>> > Tapas >> >>> > >> >>> > On 27 October 2010 09:07, Pheeta Ram wrote: >> >>> >> Dear Tapas >> >>> >> Actually the statement was sent to me by somebody. I forgot to >> >>> >> check >> if >> >>> it >> >>> >> had already been published online; that's why there was no link. >> Thanks >> >>> >> for >> >>> >> reminding me the etiquettes of responsible online publishing. >> >>> >> I shall take care next time. >> >>> >> Pheeta Ram >> >>> >> >> >>> >> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 6:42 AM, Tapas Ray [Gmail] < >> tapasrayx at gmail.com >> >>> > >> >>> >> wrote: >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> Pheeta, >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> Thanks for this. I think it would be good if we gave the links >> along >> >>> >>> with any material from online sources that we might be posting. >> This >> >>> >>> one's is >> >>> >>> < >> >>> >> http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/arundhati-roys-statement-on-possible-sedition-case-62566 >> >>> >. >> >>> >>> As for offline sources (e.g., printed books, etc.), a mention of >> the >> >>> >>> source, as complete as possible, would be very helpful. >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> Thanks again. >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> Tapas >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> On 27 October 2010 02:10, Pheeta Ram wrote: >> >>> >>> > STATEMENT BY ARUNDHATI ROY >> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> > I write this from Srinagar, Kashmir. This morning’s papers say >> that I >> >>> >>> > may be arrested on charges of sedition for what I have said at >> recent >> >>> >>> > public meetings on Kashmir. I said what millions of people here >> say >> >>> >>> > every day. I said what I, as well as other commentators have >> written >> >>> >>> > and said for years. Anybody who cares to read the transcripts of >> my >> >>> >>> > speeches will see that they were fundamentally a call for >> justice. I >> >>> >>> > spoke about justice for the people of Kashmir who live under one >> of >> >>> >>> > the most brutal military occupations in the world; for Kashmiri >> >>> >>> > Pandits who live out the tragedy of having been driven out of >> their >> >>> >>> > homeland; for Dalit soldiers killed in Kashmir whose graves I >> visited >> >>> >>> > on garbage heaps in their villages in Cuddalore; for the Indian >> poor >> >>> >>> > who pay the price of this occupation in material ways and who >> >>> >>> > are >> now >> >>> >>> > learning to live in the terror of what is becoming a police >> state. >> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> > Yesterday I traveled to Shopian, the apple-town in South Kashmir >> >>> which >> >>> >>> > had remained closed for 47 days last year in protest against the >> >>> >>> > brutal rape and murder of Asiya and Nilofer, the young women >> whose >> >>> >>> > bodies were found in a shallow stream near their homes and whose >> >>> >>> > murderers have still not been brought to justice. I met Shakeel, >> who >> >>> >>> > is Nilofer’s husband and Asiya’s brother. We sat in a circle of >> >>> >>> > people crazed with grief and anger who had lost hope that they >> would >> >>> >>> > ever get ‘insaf’—justice—from India, and now believed that >> >>> >>> > Azadi—freedom— was their only hope. I met young stone pelters >> >>> >>> > who >> had >> >>> >>> > been shot through their eyes. I traveled with a young man who >> told me >> >>> >>> > how three of his friends, teenagers in Anantnag district, had >> been >> >>> >>> > taken into custody and had their finger-nails pulled out as >> >>> punishment >> >>> >>> > for throwing stones. >> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> > In the papers some have accused me of giving ‘hate-speeches’, of >> >>> >>> > wanting India to break up. On the contrary, what I say comes >> >>> >>> > from >> >>> love >> >>> >>> > and pride. It comes from not wanting people to be killed, raped, >> >>> >>> > imprisoned or have their finger-nails pulled out in order to >> force >> >>> >>> > them to say they are Indians. It comes from wanting to live in a >> >>> >>> > society that is striving to be a just one. Pity the nation that >> has >> >>> to >> >>> >>> > silence its writers for speaking their minds. Pity the nation >> that >> >>> >>> > needs to jail those who ask for justice, while communal killers, >> mass >> >>> >>> > murderers, corporate scamsters, looters, rapists, and those who >> prey >> >>> >>> > on the poorest of the poor, roam free. >> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> > Arundhati Roy >> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> > October 26 2010 >> >>> >>> > _________________________________________ >> >>> >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >>> >>> > Critiques & Collaborations >> >>> >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith >> >>> >>> > subscribe in the subject header. >> >>> >>> > To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >>> >>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >>> >>> _________________________________________ >> >>> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >>> >>> Critiques & Collaborations >> >>> >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >>> >>> subscribe in the subject header. >> >>> >>> To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >>> >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >>> >> >> >>> > _________________________________________ >> >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >>> > Critiques & Collaborations >> >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >>> subscribe >> >>> > in the subject header. >> >>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> -- >> >>> Rajkamal >> >>> _________________________________________ >> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >>> Critiques & Collaborations >> >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >>> subscribe in the subject header. >> >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >>> >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Rajkamal From cashmeeri at yahoo.com Wed Oct 27 15:23:19 2010 From: cashmeeri at yahoo.com (cashmeeri) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 02:53:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmir yesterday and today (by Gautam Adhikari) Message-ID: <822562.63208.qm@web112614.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>   http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home/opinion/edit-page/Kashmir-yesterday-and-today/articleshow/6816200.cms   Kashmir yesterday and today Gautam Adhikari, Oct 27, 2010, 12.00am IST   var facebookktitle='Kashmir yesterday and today';var facebooksyn='The Kashmir issue is less about azadi than about settling a Partition-era dispute '; facebookktitle=facebookktitle+" - The Times of India"; WASHINGTON: Arundhati Roy is right. And she is wrong. She said the state of Jammu & Kashmir was "historically" not a part of India. But nor was India, as we know it. The geopolitical entity we now call the Republic of India simply did not exist till the midnight hour of August 14/15, 1947. So, all its constituent parts technically did not constitute a whole we could legitimately call India until that hour. There was a British Indian empire, there was a civilisation that we might call Indic and which encompassed a huge swathe of South Asia, but formally there was no nation of India. Historically, Kashmir was very much a part of that wider civilisation. Roy needs to read up that bit of Indian history. The kingdom of Kashmir was also a part, loosely, of British India, as were several other princely states. The states opted to join one of the two independent nations after that midnight hour in 1947. Jammu & Kashmir formally opted for India when Maharaja Hari Singh, under attack from Pakistani army irregulars, signed India's Instrument of Accession Act on October 26, 1947. So if Kashmir is not a legitimate part of India, and we should accordingly give it up to Pakistan, then much of India including, say, Baroda or Mysore, is illegitimate. We hope that is not what Roy implied when she said Kashmir was not an integral part of India. Fortunately, she has the right to say what she wants, even when she knows less than she ought to about a subject, because India's democratic Constitution allows her that freedom. She must not be prosecuted for sedition or for being naive. Nor should Dileep Padgaonkar, now heading a committee entrusted with the job of exploring possible solutions for the Kashmir problem, be harassed for suggesting that Pakistan would have to be part of any move to resolve this dispute. Kashmir would not be a problem for India if Pakistan did not question the legitimacy of the state's accession to the Indian Union. To insist that the status of Kashmir is not a 'dispute' between India and Pakistan is nothing but silly, ultra-nationalist posturing. In fact, the dispute is exclusively between the two nations over who should possess the state. It is not about 'independence' for the Kashmiri people. That is not to say that a section of Kashmiris in the Valley would not like independence; the contest between India and Pakistan, however, is about settling a Partition-era dispute. As India prepares to receive President Barack Obama, several administration officials in this town have clarified publicly that the US does not see a role for itself mediating the Kashmir dispute between India and Pakistan unless it is invited to do so by both sides. That amounts to telling Pakistan, which has been asking for American intervention, that the US will not intervene if India doesn't want it. The Indian position is that all differences between the two countries, including over Kashmir, should be reconciled bilaterally. That was what the two nations had signed up to in 1972 after negotiating the Shimla Agreement, which remains legally binding. The problem is one of perception, internationally as well as, it seems from the pronouncements of Roy and friends, with a section of Indian opinion. Pakistan has successfully sold a lemon to the world that it is fighting for Kashmir's independence. It adds to the deceit by qualifying the portion of Kashmir it has taken over as 'Azad' or independent Kashmir. Which, of course, is nonsense. Pakistan's north-west frontier areas enjoy a greater degree of effective independence from Islamabad. The fact is that neither India nor Pakistan is ready to offer independence to any part of Jammu & Kashmir, certainly not under those oft-cited UN resolutions asking for a plebiscite in J&K to assess how much popular support each country enjoys in the state. No plebiscite has taken place but several credible opinion polls in recent years have offered a glimpse of public opinion in Kashmir. One by the respected Chatham House of London showed barely 2 per cent support among people in the Valley for joining Pakistan. A majority in the Valley wanted independence but that's not on offer from either Pakistan or India. That is to say nothing of China, which occupies 20 per cent of the state's territory, and no one in the world dares ask it to vacate. Independence, if it is to be at all considered, becomes a complicated issue when we try to visualise it. Will it be independence just for the Muslim majority Valley? Or will it be also for Jammu, with a predominantly Hindu population, and Buddhist Ladakh, neither of which is particularly anxious to break with India? And who will protect that independence from the likely possibility that Pakistani army irregulars will pounce to merge it with the part it now controls and call it all Azad Kashmir? Some will argue that an international force can be created, perhaps under UN auspices, and stationed in a truncated Kashmir to guarantee its independence. Yes, of course, like an international force is today guaranteeing protection for Afghanistan from marauding bands of ISI-directed Taliban and al-Qaida jihadis operating out of shelters in Pakistan, right? Come on, get real. The writer is a FICCI-EWC fellow at East West Centre, Washington DC. From cashmeeri at yahoo.com Wed Oct 27 15:36:05 2010 From: cashmeeri at yahoo.com (cashmeeri) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 03:06:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?b?RG9u4oCZdCBwaXR5IHVzLCBBcnVuZGhhdGkg4oCT?= =?utf-8?q?_not_yet_=28by_Anshul_Chaturvedi=29?= Message-ID: <501889.86481.qm@web112617.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>   http://blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/clicklit/entry/don-t-pity-us-arundhati-not-yet   Don’t pity us, Arundhati – not yet   Anshul Chaturvedi 27 October 2010, 06:37 AM IST   Insofar as putting thoughts into words go, I guess I’m not really qualified to take up an issue with Arundhati Roy; she’s a globally acknowledged, indeed, acclaimed writer, while I am no more than an inconsequential rarely-read salaried cog in the gigantic wheels of the print media. Having said that, I am very clear that I don’t want my share of the accumulated pity that she thinks the nation collectively merits. So, here’s my inadequate submission:  Arundhati has said that she “spoke about justice for the people of Kashmir who live under one of the most brutal military occupations in the world; for Kashmiri Pandits who live out the tragedy of having been driven out of their homeland; for Dalit soldiers killed in Kashmir whose graves I visited on garbage heaps in their villages in Cuddalore; for the Indian poor who pay the price of this occupation in material ways and who are now learning to live in the terror of what is becoming a police state.” I disagree with the effortless branding of Kashmir as “one of the most brutal military occupations in the world” – it is not pleasant, today, I am sure, but from 1948 to say, at least 1988, a period of well over four decades, Kashmir was a part of what we consider India – merged, integrated, acceded, depends on whom you ask – and for those four decades it was not part of India on the strength of a “brutal military occupation”. Unlike German soldiers marching into Poland or Chinese troops invading Tibet, India did not have to “invade” Kashmir and then hold it from Day One by administering martial law or its equivalent. I don’t mean to sound cheesy, but for years and years Bollywood didn’t churn out those scenes of a beautiful, peaceful, idyllic Kashmir on the strength of shooting  crews backed by hundreds of ‘brutal soldiers’ trying to create a pretence of normal, peaceful life. That’s just how it was. Someone worked to change it. The question is – who? Punjab, too, faced a decade of insurgency, something which we forget all too easily today. But it wasn’t ‘occupied’ prior to that, it isn’t ‘occupied’ today. Kashmir has faced more than a decade of insurgency, agreed, but to portray it as if everyone in Kashmir for all time has been subject to “one of the most brutal military occupations” does no justice to the intellect which Arundhati obviously possesses – more so in the context of the fact that the other friendly democratic states that border Kashmir, namely Pakistan and China, have no noticeable tradition of tender loving care extended by their respective militaries to people who question whether they belong to those states.  Having lived and worked in J&K for many years, as an editor, I have carried stories about remote hilly villages where terrorists surrounded hamlets of Gujjars and slit the throats of two dozen villagers to indicate the price of ‘cooperation’ extended to security forces patrolling the hills. When Bill Clinton came to India, we saw the carnage of 36 Sikhs in Chatttisinghpora – something which Arundhati’s comrade in arms, Syed Ali Shah Geeelani, incredibly enough, still reiterates was ‘done by India to defame Kashmiris’. There is no dearth of such instances – I quote only a couple to remind us all that Kashmir’s brutal occupation is not quite as much of an innocent-lambs-being-led-to-slaughter scenario as Ms Roy perhaps sees it as. When Arundhati says that she speaks for justice “for Kashmiri Pandits who live out the tragedy of having been driven out of their homeland”, it is too ridiculous to even merit comment, given that she wants that justice to come while she shares a dias with Geelani. They were ‘driven out of their homeland’, Arundhati, by the brutal military occupiers of Kashmir, or by someone else? Driven out by whom? Why leave it to delightful ambiguities here? I do not know if Kashmiri Pandits give any weightage to her speaking ostensibly on their behalf. And the statistical chances of Pandits returning to Kashmir if the brutal military occupation ends tomorrow are slimmer than of Arundhati joining the BJP.  Arundhati seeks justice, too, “for Dalit soldiers killed in Kashmir whose graves I visited on garbage heaps in their villages in Cuddalore.” This is slick if you are writing a column for a foreign audience, the way Aussie ‘experts’ wrote on the caste composition of the Indian cricket team during the Bhajji-Symonds spat, but, hello, “Dalit soldiers” killed in Kashmir die in situations different from upper caste soldiers or Sikh soldiers or Muslim soldiers – or local, Kashmiri Muslim policemen? Don’t insult our intelligence, and the Army’s basic DNA, with this line of argument. You wish to be the defender of the rights of those oppressed in Kashmir, of the Pandits, and of the “Dalit soldiers” from among the troops who die there day in and day out? Sorry, this is just not real, it’s just not genuine, even if it is possibly good homework for global awards coming your way as defender of the rights of all oppressed sections in this part of the world.  Arundhati’s also looking for justice “for the Indian poor who pay the price of this occupation in material ways and who are now learning to live in the terror of what is becoming a police state”, but I have little comment to offer on this because, frankly, it is a little too esoteric for me to understand the point. I understand that India is in selective ways and selective zones a police state of sorts, but how insensitive policing in interior Bihar is attributable to Kashmir’s status – and how Azadi will address that – must have a subtle connect which my everyday, non literary mind has singularly failed to grasp. But then, we are all not blessed with equal talents. Anyway, this is not one of Ms Roy’s essays, so I daren’t type away endlessly. I’ll conclude. You say, Arundhati, “pity the nation that has to silence its writers for speaking their minds. Pity the nation that needs to jail those who ask for justice, while communal killers, mass murderers, corporate scamsters, looters, rapists, and those who prey on the poorest of the poor, roam free.” I say, you are jumping the gun. Neither have you been silenced at any point for speaking your mind – distasteful as it may be to many when it veers towards applauding anyone willing to kill an Indian soldier, be it a Naxal in Chattisgarh or a terrorist in Kashmir – nor does the nation need to be pitied. Yet. Writers and dissidents are silenced, in friendlier and I suppose less ‘brutal’ societies such as Pakistan, China, Myanmar, but the very fact that you can issue statements and notes challenging the same to be done here is, perhaps, the strongest negation of those statements. Yes, many murderers, scamsters and rapists still roam free, and no, we aren't proud of that in the least, but no, you haven’t been jailed for asking for justice. And I don’t see that happening. Truth be told, I think you don’t see it happening either. So while one gives all credit to your intellectual prowess, I don’t think this overdose of pity for the nation is quite deserved. It's a lot of hyperbole. As part of ‘the nation’, even if just one-billionth, I respectfully wish to return my proportion of pity offered by you, Ms Roy. Please accept it. And while you’re at it, pass it on to Mr Geelani; I daresay he needs it more.    From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Wed Oct 27 17:02:47 2010 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 17:02:47 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Defaulter Geelani asked to pay Rs 1.73 crore as IT dues Message-ID: Defaulter Geelani asked to pay Rs 1.73 crore as IT dues *Sumir Kaul - PTI* Link - http://news.chennaionline.com/newsitem.aspx?NEWSID=6cd07d73-ec1d-47a5-a095-eba5659ac532&CATEGORYNAME=NATL ***New Delhi, Oct 27 * Income Tax department has asked hardline Kashmiri separatist leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani to file Rs 1.73 crore in tax dues over a period when he had not filed his returns after rejecting his appeal. The IT sleuths, which had swooped on residences of Geelani and his family members in 2002 and seized valuable items including a diamond-studded watch gifted by Pakistan Government, had raised a tax demand of over Rs 1.5 crore. Geelani challenged the demand and approached the Commissioner of Income Tax (appeals) for review of the case and also sought a waiver, saying he did not earn anything other than the pension from Government of Jammu and Kashmir and from agriculture land. The case dragged on for nearly three years and recently the appeal was dismissed after which he was asked to deposit Rs 1. - (Agencies) *Similar Report of 2004* - http://news.outlookindia.com/item.aspx?205476 From sonia.jabbar at gmail.com Wed Oct 27 17:22:32 2010 From: sonia.jabbar at gmail.com (SJabbar) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 17:22:32 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?iso-8859-1?q?Azadi=3A_The_Only_Way_=AD_Report_fro?= =?iso-8859-1?q?m_a_Turbulent_Few_Hours_in_Delhi?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thank you for your concern. You're very kind. On 27/10/10 2:36 PM, "Aditya Raj Baul" wrote: > Awwww.... poor girl. Would you like a candy? On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 6:10 PM, > SJabbar wrote: > Sigh... Now how does one begin to > answer this diatribe.  Tell you what: you > win, dude.  OK?  Khush raho. > > > > On 26/10/10 4:32 PM, "Aditya Raj Baul" wrote: > >> > My name is Aditya Raj Baul. Just because I'm not famous like you, you > can >> > allege that my real name is something else. This is offensive, to > say the >> > least. > > Your pre-condition for dialogue with me proves my charge. If my >> > "real" > identity matters to thsi conversation, as you claim it does, then >> > it > means your response would depend on who I am. You would say one thing > > if I >> were Praveen Swami, another if I were Dileep Padgaonkar, a third > if > I were the >> India editor of The India, Australia, something > completely > different if I were >> Masarat Alam, something more nuanced if > I were Yasin > Malik, something more >> aggressive if I were SAS Geelani. > > You accuse me > of not being Aditya Raj Baul. >> Yet it is you who's afraid > of being Sonia > Jabbar. > > For all you know, may be >> I'm you. > > I asked you: > > "I like > it how Sonia Jabbar wants to hold Kashmir >> hostage to history - > to the > histories of India and Pakistan, to the history of >> what Geelani > has or > has not done, has or has not said. She does not think >> history > is > irrelevant to today's people who want azadi today in >> today's > context - > sorry, she says, India has signed the Simla agreement, >> and > Geelani is a > fanatic. Thank you. Fair enough, I suppose. But will >> she > apply the same > rigours of historical understanding to the Indian state > and >> its actions > in Kashmir? Please?" > > I would be happy to clarify my question, if >> only > you'd ask me what > about it you don't understand. But all you want to do >> > is be > condescending, suspicious and irritable. > > Thanks but not thanks, > > Aditya >> Raj Baul > > > On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 4:22 PM, SJabbar > >> wrote: >> Sorry, didn't mean to be.  Was just > poking mild fun at your assumed >> name. >> I'd be very happy to have a > serious conversation with you any time, >> but it >> would be nice if I knew > whom I was addressing.  I'm really not >> interested in >> scoring debating > points and this is what has been happening in >> this forum >> particularly > with people with false identities. >> Sincerely, >> >> Sonia >> >> >> On > 26/10/10 4:15 PM, "Aditya Raj Baul" >> wrote: >> >>> > You can be as contemptuous as you want. Doesn't take away from >> your >>> > hypocrisy >> >> On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 4:10 PM, SJabbar >> > >>> wrote: >>> Oh whenever you want, dear boy, > since >> you believe in making >>> history. >>> Atilla D. Hun >>> >>> >>> On > 26/10/10 4:01 >> PM, "Aditya Raj Baul" >>> > wrote: >>> >>>> My question >> is: when will you make Rahul >>> PM? >>> >>> On > Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 3:58 PM, >>>> >> SJabbar >>> > wrote: >>>> Aditya Raj Baul, >>>> What >> exactly is >>>> your > question? >>>> >>> Sincerely, >>>> Sonia Gandhi >>>> >>>> >>>> >> On 26/10/10 > 2:04 PM, "Aditya >>>> Raj Baul" >>> >> > wrote: >>>> >>>>> I like it how Sonia Jabbar >>>> wants to >>> hold Kashmir >> > hostage to history - >>>> to the >>>>> histories of India and >>>> >>> > Pakistan, >> to the history of what Geelani >>>> has or has not >>>>> done, > has or >>> has >>>> >> not said. She does not think history >>>> is irrelevant > to today's >>>>> >>> >> people who >>>> want azadi today in today's >>>> > context - sorry, she says, >> India >>> has >>>>> signed >>>> the Simla > agreement, and >>>> Geelani is a >> fanatic. Thank you. >>> Fair enough, >>>>> > I >>>> suppose. But will she >>>> apply >> the same rigours of >>> historical > understanding >>>> to >>>>> the Indian >> state >>>> and its actions in >>> > Kashmir? Please? >>>> >>>> On Mon, Oct >>>> 25, >> 2010 at >>>>> 9:53 AM, > SJabbar >>> wrote: >>>>> Dear >>>> >> > Shuddha, >>>>> >>>>> I think >>>>> our >>> differences have narrowed > considerably >> as you >>>> continue to >>>>> clarify >>> your >>>>> position. >  Reading between >> your lines, you seem >>>> to think that >>> I >>>>> have > a >>>>> problem with your >> engaging with Mr. Geelani or >>>> that the >>> > problem was >>>>> your >>>>> >> sharing a stage with him. I do not not. >  In >>>> >>> politics there are no >>>>> >> pariahs. >>>>>  If someone > represents a >>> constituency-- >>>> no matter how >> marginal-- >>>>> that > is >>>>> part of the social >>> fabric you cannot >>>> >> ignore it.  It may > surprise you >>>>> and >>>>>  many on this >>> list to know >> that Mr. >>>> > Geelani and I have known each other >>>>> >>>>> since >>> 1997 and >> have > extremely frank >>>> and cordial relations. My problem was> >>>>> >>> with >> > the language of your report of >>>> the meeting where your >>> >> > enthusiasm >>>>> >>>>> (“tallest separatist leader,” he is >>>> “NOT > against >>> >> dialogue,” “all that they >>>>> >>>>> are asking for is the > Right to >>>> >>> >> self-determination”) masked a political >>>>> >>>>> > reality that was far >> more >>>> >>> complex and brutal.  However, you have > since >>>>> >>>>> clarified >> that you do >>> not >>>> endorse Mr. Geelani’s >  politics and you >> concede >>>>> >>>>> that he may >>> well have >>>> been > playing to audiences in >> Delhi,  bringing us more >>>>> >>>>> or >>> less on > the >>>> same page except that >> past experience has made me less >>> > likely >>>>> >>>>> to share >>>> your belief >> that someone like Mr. Geelani > can be >>> “USED” or that you >>>>> >>>>> can >>>> >>  “compel them to come to > a degree of >>> moderation in action, and >> a >>>>> >>>>> >>>> greater, more > imaginative radicalism in >>> terms of >> conceptions.” >>>>> >>>>> I am >>>> > glad >>>>> you agree that people and >>> >> groups, state and non-state actors > who >>>>> >>>> have >>>>> committed crimes >> must >>> stand trial and justice > must be done, whether >>>> it >>>>> is >>>>> SAS >> Geelani, >>> Yasin Malik, > Syed Salahuddin or various army generals >>>> who >>>>> >> have >>>>> >>> > presided over rights abuses while they served in J&K. I have >> in >>>> > this >>>>> >>> forum >>>>> written of a Truth & Reconciliation Commission >> > modeled on the >>>> >>> South >>>>> African >>>>> experience that should > follow >> the final settlement on >>>> >>> J&K. >>>>> >>>>> I am also > glad >>>>> that you >> agree with my point of the futility >>> of >>>> > creating a >>>>> new >> nation-state >>>>> in the form of an independent >>> > Kashmir ( “I >>>> am not for >> the >>>>> moment saying and >>>>> have never > said that >>> an independent >>>> >> Kashmir will be in any >>>>> way a > qualitative >>>>> improvement >>> (in terms of >> a >>>> state form) than an > occupied >>>>> Kashmir,”).  But you >>>>> >>> seem to >> believe that >>>> it > is necessary because “ It may >>>>> at least lead to >>> >> the >>>>> > withdrawal of the >>>> reality of a brutal occupation.” By >>>>> this >> I >>> > assume your >>>>> vision of regime >>>> change means replacing one >> > democratic >>>>> >>> republic with another >>>>> democratic >>>> republic and > not >> an Islamic republic >>> or a >>>>> military state.  In >>>>> which > case >>>> “the >> reality of a brutal >>> occupation” must >>>>> mean the > withdrawal of >>>>> >>>> >> hundreds of thousands of >>> uniformed men in J&K. >  But >>>>> do you really >> need >>>> to >>>>> create a new >>> nation-state > in order to demilitarize >>>>> >> Kashmir? >>>>> >>>>> >>>> From 1947 > to >>>>> >>> 1989 India’s military presence was >> restricted to the >>>> > borders >>>>> and to the >>> few >>>>> garrisons of >> Srinagar, Baramulla, > Leh, Udhampur >>>> and Poonch. >>>>> >>> Between 1989- >>>>> >> 1992 India was > being seriously challenged on >>>> the >>> military >>>>> front by >> > thousands >>>>> of Kashmiri militants and Islamist >>>> >>> mujahideen. >  The >> troop >>>>> surge only >>>>> happened only around 1992-93 and >>> > the >>>> Indian >> military was only >>>>> able to >>>>> control the situation > around >>> 1995. >> In >>>> 1996 the situation was such >>>>> that it >>>>> > was the first time in >>> >> 6 years it was >>>> possible to hold elections > and >>>>> yet then >>>>> as in >> 2002 >>> there were hundreds >>>> of > assassinations of political >>>>> candidates >> and >>>>> >>> ordinary workers > of >>>> political parties (the right to >>>>> >> self-determination >>> > is >>>>> never extended to >>>> this group). >>>>> >>>>> >> Anyway, my point > is that >>> 500,000 or 700,000 >>>>> troops were >>>> not there >> as a >>>>> > permanent fixture >>> since 1947 and the ‘most >>>>> militarized >>>> >> place > in the world’ >>>>> was not >>> always so.  It is both desirable >> > and >>>>> >>>> possible to withdraw troops >>> and >>>>> it should be done in > a >> phased manner. >>>>> >>>>  Though I have been vocal >>> in >>>>> > advocating this >> since 2001, sadly, I believe >>>> it >>>>> will be > linked >>> to the final >>>>> >> settlement and will not happen before >>>> > because of >>>>> the >>> many sleeper >> cells of >>>>> militants that get > activated the >>>> moment there >>> is >>>>> >> peace or at least as > they >>>>> say ‘normalcy’— as we have >>>> seen in >>> last >> week’s >>>>> > encounter between troops and >>>>> the JeM in Srinagar. >>>>  BTW >>> >> > Srinagar district was >>>>> one of the districts being >>>>> examined for >> > the >>>> >>> revocation of the Disturbed >>>>> Areas Act.  This encounter >> > will >>>>> make it >>>> >>> extremely difficult for the state >>>>> government > to >> do so. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>  I am >>> glad >>>> you agree with me that > the >> 4-point >>>>> formula can be a solution >>> to >>>>> the >>>> vexed > Kashmir issue, >> however your reading >>>>> of what went wrong >>> and > putting >>>>> >>>> the onus >> of the failure of implementation >>>>> squarely > on >>> New Delhi’s >>>> >> shoulder >>>>> is wrong.  Yes, there were delays on > New >>>>> >>> Delhi’s side, >> but >>>> those were not >>>>> remarkable > considering a political >>>>> >>> >> consensus had to be >>>> built within > the >>>>> country (I think it was in >> 2008 >>> during >>>>> the > Amarnath >>>> Yatra that I explained >>>>> the entire >> process at >>> length > in this >>>>> forum). >>>>  Very simply what happened >> was >>>>> that > the >>> Lawyer’s Movement in >>>>> Pakistan >>>> overtook the >> Kashmir > process and once >>>>> >>> Mushrraf was ousted and >>>>> Benazir >>>> was >> > assassinated the country plunged >>> into >>>>> political turmoil and >> > the >>>>> >>>> Zaradari government was too weak to >>> break from >>>>> > Pakistan’s >> traditional >>>> stand >>>>> of the UN Resolutions. >>>  Both > Gen Kayani and >> the >>>>> ISI were not >>>> comfortable >>>>> with > Musharraf’s >>> radical >> departure from tradition. >>>>> Both >>>> believe > Pakistan’s >>>>> best >>> >> interests are served by keeping the Kashmir > pot >>>>> >>>> boiling, >>> >> maintaining >>>>> India as ‘enemy no 1’, > encouraging extremism in >>>>> >>>> >>> >> Afghanistan to maintain >>>>> > ‘strategic depth,’ and to scuttle any >>> >> influence >>>>> >>>> India may > wield in >>>>> Afghanistan.  So, as much as I >> and >>> many others > would >>>> like >>>>> to see the 4-point >>>>> formula being >> at least >>> > discussed, under the >>>> present >>>>> Pakistani dispensation >>>>> >> it is > highly >>> unlikely. >>>>> >>>>> When you >>>> advocate a plebiscite and > you >> believe that >>>>> >>> the azadi movement must >>>>> be >>>> peaceful > then you >> must also accommodate >>> the >>>>> possibility of a > partitioned >>>>> >>>> J&K, >> where large sections of Jammu >>> and all > of >>>>> Ladakh would not vote >> for >>>>> >>>> Pakistan (and under what > UN >>> Resolution would the >>>>> option >> of independence >>>> be >>>>> > granted since NO UN >>> Resolution holds that >> option >>>>> and no Kashmiri > to >>>> date has >>>>> appealed >>> to the UN to pass >> a resolution to >>>>> > include the option?) >>>> And how >>>>> >>> would you >> persuade Pakistan to > allow a >>>>> plebiscite in areas under >>>> >>> their >>>>> >> control?  And > what is your opinion of the >>>>> vast region of >>>> >>> >> > Gilgit-Baltistan >>>>> that by Pakistani law has been severed from >>>>> > the >>> >> state >>>> of Jammu & Kashmir and >>>>> where its citizens have > NO >> fundamental >>>>> >>> rights as >>>> its constitutional status >>>>> has > not as >> yet been >>> determined? >>>>> >>>>> I am >>>>> >>>> asking these > questions not to >> score points but >>> for us to locate what > is >>>>> >>>>> >>>> moral or desirable >> within what is real and >>> possible > not just for >>>> Kashmiris >>>>> >>>>> who >> are but a small part of the >>> > state, but of all the people >>>> of Jammu >> & >>>>> >>>>> > Kashmir. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>> >> > Sonia >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> My > question is, >> what do we >>> do >>>>> next. I think that this means that > the >>>> people >>>>>> >> 'learn' to USE >>> them, to >>>>> compel them to > come to a degree of >>>> >> moderation in >>>>>> action, >>> and a > greater, >>>>> more imaginative radicalism >> in >>>> terms of >>> > conceptions. >>>>>> That is why, the >>>>> current situation >> in > Kashmir, >>>> where >>> the 'Leaders' are being >>>>>> 'Led' by people >>>>> > is >> interesting to me. I >>>> >>> find it POSITIVE that they have to > do >>>>>> >> flip-flops so >>>>> often, from >>>> >>> Hartal-to-No Hartal- to > Hartal again. >> This shows >>>>>> that they are >>>>> NOT >>>> >>> running > the street. Things are >> unpredictable. The change in >>>>>> > the >>>>> >>>> >>> 'temperature' of SAS >> Geelani's statements may be as much > due to the >>>> >>> fact >>>>>> >>>>> that he >> is no longer in a position to > call all the shots. >>>> >>> Therefore, he >> has >>>>>> >>>>> less to lose by > 'changing' his tenor. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>> There >>>> >> is a way in which > the >>>>> language of politics has changed, and it >>> >> has >>>>>> >>>> > changed because of the way in >>>>> which people are >> communicating >>> on > all sorts >>>> of >>>>>> fora. Though they may, out >>>>> of >> affection, > still say >>> that only Geelani >>>> will do >>>>>> the Tarjumani, the >> > truth >>>>> is, everyone is >>> doing their own >>>> Tarjumani now. > and >>>>>> >> that is the hardest nut >>>>> for the >>> Government of > India >>>> to crack. As >> an anarchist, >>>>>> I find this >>>>> >>> > situation, of the actual, >>>> >> concrete, refusal of > 'representational >>>>>> forms >>> of >>>>> politics' . >> however >>>> > ephemeral it might be at present, quite >>>>>> >>> delightful. >> SO >>>>> > much so, that a >>>> 'theatre' of leadership continues, >>> but >>>>>> >> > actuality presumes a >>>>> totally >>>> different language of >>> >> > politics. >>>>>> >>>>>> I find this a fertile situation, >>>>> >>>> one > latent >> with >>> possibilities, for everyone. >>>>>> >>>>>> As for your > other >>>> >> point, >>>>> about >>> how close we all were to the beginnings > of the >>>>>> long >> road >>>> towards a >>>>> >>> solution with Musharraf's > four point formula - I >> agree >>>>>> with >>>> you. But, >>> then, >>>>> it > was the Government of India >> that scuttled that >>>>>> >>>> >>> possibility. > If the >>>>> government of India >> had acted then, on what was on >>>> >>> > offer, >>>>>> perhaps things >>>>> would >> not have come to the situation > where >>> they >>>> are at present. >>>>>> Too >> much >>>>> has gone wrong > since then. I am not >>> a >>>> nationalist of any >> sort, and to >>>>>> > me, >>>>> ALL nation states, and all >>> nation >>>> states in >> waiting, >  are ultimately the>> >>>>> actors of the tragedies >>> of their >>>> >> own > making and choosing, >>>>>> So, basically, I >>>>> am not for the >>> > moment >> saying >>>> and have never said that an >>>>>> independent >>>>> > Kashmir will >>> >> be in any way a >>>> qualitative improvement (in terms > of >>>>>> a state >>>>> >> form) >>> than an occupied >>>> Kashmir, but, It > may at least lead to >> the >>>>>> >>> withdrawal >>>>> of the reality of >>>> > a brutal >> occupation. >>>>>> >>>>>> For me, >>> whatever makes that >>>>> > possible, I am >>>> >> prepared to accept. There were, >>> and >>>>>> remain > many >>>>> possibilities >> that span >>>> the spectrum from where >>> the > situation is >>>>>> at >> present >>>>> to Indpendence or >>>> accession > to >>> Pakistan. But thinking >> about those >>>>>> >>>>> possibilities > require >>>> all >>> Indians to stop >> thinking only out of the > Indian>> >>>>> nationalist box. You >>>> >>> know very >> well, that many > different kinds of >>>>> arrangement >>>>>> could >>> have >>>> >> been > explored. including maximum autonomy under the >>>>> aegis of >>> a >>>>>> >> > joint >>>> India-Pakistan guarantee, which is what I understand > the >>>>> >>> >> Musharraf >>>>>> >>>> formula to have been, But the bottom > line is, whatever >> is >>> worked >>>>> out has to >>>> be >>>>>> acceptable > to the popular will, >> hence a >>> plebiscite with many >>>>> options >>>> on > offer, >>>>>> and the >> freedom to campaign >>> for the many options in > an >>>>> >>>> atomsphere free >> of >>>>>> coercion. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>> > Realistically speaking, I do not >>>> >> think >>>>> that the Government of > India has >>> the >>>>>> imagination any >> longer to >>>> try and >>>>> think > out of the box. If it >>> can, that >> would >>>>>> be great. But, >>>> going > by the >>>>> ostrich like attitude >>> of >> the Government in the >>>>>> face > of the >>>> obvious >>>>> alienation of the >>> >> Kashmiri people, I very > much doubt it. >>>>>> If >>>> they had that >>>>> >>> >> intelligence, they > could have stopped the killings by the >>>>>> >>>> >> security >>> forces > a >>>>> long time ago. >>>>>> >>>>>> Therefore, the only >> remaining >>>> >>> > possibility for ending the >>>>> occupation seems to >>>>>> me >> to be >>> > independence >>>> for Kashmir, in the short term, >>>>> under the >>> >> > custodianship >>>>>> of the United >>>> Nations, like happened in >> > Kosovo.Of >>>>> >>> course, I strongly assert >>>>>> that the >>>> political > road >> to this must be >>> through >>>>> non-violent means, through >>>>>> > mass >>>> >> political participation, >>> of as many >>>>> different sections > of the >>>> >> population >>>>>> as possible. It >>> will be painful, > for >>>>> many Indians to >> accept, >>>> but in the long >>>>>> term, >>> and > in the absence of any >>>>> >> other imaginative >>>> solutions thought > through >>> by >>>>>> the Indian >> political elites >>>>> (that chance >>>> > has come, and sadly, >>> gone) it will >> be >>>>>> in the best interests > of >>>>> the >>>> people of India. Of >>> course, >> the challenge for > the >>>>>> people of Kashmir >>>>> >>>> would be to think >>> >> through a > vision of independence that does >>>>>> not have >>>> them >>>>> >> switch >>> > slavery to Indian occupation to slavery to the >> Pakistani >>>>>> >>>> >>> > militarist >>>>> elite. The challenge would be to come >> up with proposals > for >>>> >>> a >>>>>> >>>>> demilitarized, non-aggressive >> Kashmir that can > preserve its >>> cultural >>>> and >>>>>> >>>>> social openness >> and > liberality, that can take back >>> displaced >>>> minorities, >>>>> > and >>>>>> >> can offer them genuine, not token safety >>> and security. >>>> > That is the >> hard >>>>> work >>>>>> that imaginative politics will >>> have > to undertake >>>> >> in Kashmir. And we >>>>> should >>>>>> never stop > expecting >>> and demanding >> that from >>>> all our Kashmiri >>>>> friends. > I >>>>>> never, ever >>> cease >> doing so. >>>>>> >>>>>>  In the >>>> long > term, this fact, >>>>> an Independent >>> >> Kashmir, could actually be > the >>>>>> >>>> cornerstone of a broad South >>>>> >> Asian >>> Union > (modelled on the EU) which >>>> could >>>>>> bring the >> different >>>>> >>> > nationalities (there may be many by then) of >>>> South >> Asia >>>>>> under > an >>>>> >>> arrangement of a free trade zone, a visa free >> zone, >>>> a > customs and >>>>>> >>> tarrifs >>>>> union, a charter on shared >> ecological > concerns, >>>> and >>> comprehensive >>>>>> >>>>> demilitarization. An >> > independent Kashmir may be the >>>> >>> first step in that >>>>>> >>>>> > direction. >> Of course this need not happen. >>> Things >>>> could get worse > if >>>>> >> Kashmir >>>>>> separates. I am well aware and >>> cognizant > of >>>> that >> possibility. But, >>>>> at least, >>>>>> once the dust and >>> > din settles, in >> our >>>> lifetime, there is a >>>>> likelihood that >>>>>> > once >>> everyone has >> climbed off >>>> their nationalist high >>>>> horses, > things might >>> be >>>>>> >> worked out, amicably and >>>> reasonably between > all the >>>>> stake >>> holders >> of a future >>>>>> free association >>>> of > South Asian States and >>>>> >>> >> Territories. That, I think is the >>>>>> > only >>>> guarantee for peace in our >>> >> region. I >>>>> know for certain > that an India and >>>>>> >>>> Pakistan that >>> >> continue to hold on > to >>>>> their respective fragments of Jammu >>>> >> and >>>>>> >>> Kashmir, > and an India that enforces >>>>> that occupation by >> military >>>> force >>> > cannot >>>>>> contribute to peace in the >>>>> >> region. >>>>>> >>>>>> That > is why, I >>>> >>> think that freedom for Kashmir, and >> also, >>>>> > incidentally for >>>>>> Tibet, >>> is >>>> key to long term peace and >> > stability in Asia, >>>>> because both >>> these >>>>>> >>>> developments > would >> reduce the necessity of the big >>>>> poweres >>> of tomorrow - >>>> > China >>>>>> >> and India and to a lesser extent - Pakistan >>>>> >>> from > being aggressive >>>> >> nuclear >>>>>> powered rivals, and would perhaps, >>> > perhaps, >>>>> open out the >> true >>>> possibility of >>>>>> what a > worthwhile Asian >>> Century really >>>>> >> ought to be like. >>>> Otherwise, > I am >>>>>> afraid that we >>> will replay the >> disasters >>>>> of the >>>> > European history of the >>>>>> Twentieth >>> Century, >> from the First World > War >>>>> >>>> onwards, on the soil of Twenty >>>>>> >>> >> First Century > Asia. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I hope i >>>> have >>>>> made myself >>> >> > clear >>>>>> >>>>>> best, >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>> >> > Shuddha >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On >>>>> > 23-Oct-10, at >> 7:45 PM, >>> SJabbar >>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Sorry for > cross-posting but I >>>>> >> sent this >>> message out in the >>>> morning as > a >>>>>>> response to Shuddha¹s >> 2nd post >>>>> >>> but received an > automated >>>> email saying my >>>>>>> post had >> to be reviewed by >>> > the >>>>> moderator.  Since I >>>> haven¹t received >> a >>>>>>> response > (Monica??!) I >>> assume it >>>>> was not approved >>>> or got >> lost in the > vast >>>>>>> belly of the >>> Sarai computer! >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> > ------------------------------------- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Shuddha, let > us >>> >> take >>>> your >>>>> arguments and apply them to the other side. >  Modi >>>>>>> >>> >> belongs to a >>>> political >>>>> party that was in power > and he was at the >> helm >>> when >>>>>>> the 2002 >>>> Gujarat >>>>> carnage > took place.  He may not >> have >>> explicitly directed it >>>>>>> >>>> but > he >>>>> certainly presided over >> the >>> violence.  What Modi is like as > a >>>> person, >>>>>>> >>>>> whether he is >> gentle, >>> cultured, cries at > the funeral of his >>>> friends or >> his >>>>>>> >>>>> rivals are >>> of no > concern to me  (It is well known that >>>> >> Goebbels was a >>>>>>> >>>>> >>> > cultured man and had a refined taste in music >> and the >>>> arts and of >>> > course >>>>>>> >>>>> Jinnah ate ham sandwiches). What >> matters to me is >>>> > that the >>> man presided >>>>> over >>>>>>> the worst kind >> of violence and > has refused >>>> to, >>> till date, condemn >>>>> it >>>>>>> >> unambiguously. >  Instead he and his party >>>> >>> continue to cite the >>>>> >> > economic >>>>>>> progress of Muslims in Gujarat to >>>> >>> counter it. >  The >> subtext of >>>>> this‹ and this >>>>>>> is a South Asian >>> > disease‹ >>>> is let >> us forget the past, >>>>> galtiyan dono taraf > se >>>>>>> huin >>> hain >>>> >> (³action-reaction²), and let us move > on. >>>>>  Whether it is the >>>>>>> >>> >> various >>>> political parties in > India who have incited, >>>>> controlled >> and >>> presided >>>>>>> >>>> over > the worst communal or sectarian violence >> from >>>>> the >>> 1930¹s to > the >>>> present >>>>>>> day, or the Pakistani army >> role in the > mass >>>>> >>> rapes of >>>> Bangladesh or the Sri >>>>>>> Lankan >> army¹s > role against Tamil >>> civilians, >>>>> >>>> every political party in >> > these >>>>>>> countries seem to be >>> inflicted by the >>>> same >>>>> >> > disease. >>>>>>> Having said that, I believe it is >>> the role of > civil >>>> >> society to be >>>>> vigilant, >>>>>>> to be rigorous, to not >>> > succumb to the >> same >>>> logic. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I know >>>>> that you have > been >>> critical of >> fundamentalist >>>> politics in this forum >>>>>>> > and >>>>> others, >>> whether >> it is Hindutva or Islamist >>>> and that is > why it surprised >>>>>>> >>> me >>>>> >> to read your post on the LTG > event. >>>>  You say ³You may be right when >>> >> you>>> >>>>> say that SAS > Geelani may be saying >>>> one thing in Delhi and >>> >> another > in >>>>>>> >>>>> Srinagar.  I am not here to judge >>>> the sincerity, >> > or >>> lack of,  or >>>>> ambiguity, >>>>>>> of these statements.²  Why >>>> > are >> you not >>> here to judge the >>>>> sincerity or lack >>>>>>> thereof > of >> these >>>> statements? >>>  Surely, one is always >>>>> judging > political >>>>>>> >> parties when they >>>> claim >>> one or another thing? >  How does >>>>> one align >> oneself >>>>>>> politically if >>>> >>> one goes > simply by manifestos and not >> by >>>>> actions?  Judging >>>>>>> > and >>>> >>> evaluating is a constant process. >>  Mamta Bannerjee >>>>> may > have been >>> one >>>>>>> >>>> thing as a member of the >> opposition but how > will she be >>>>> when >>> she comes >>>> to >>>>>>> power? >>  One reads her > statements, one watches >>> carefully >>>>> her >>>> >> actions >>>>>>> > following her statements.  If they don¹t >>> gel, we believe >> her >>>>> >>>> > to be >>>>>>> insincere. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You write: ³I am >>> amazed >> that > this recognition >>>> is >>>>> not getting the space I >>>>>>> think it >>> >> > deserves, simply as a NEWS story. >>>> ³ Do >>>>> you remember Atal >> > Behari >>>>>>> >>> Vajpayee shed tears after the demolition >>>> of > the >>>>> >> Babri Masjid and >>> Advani >>>>>>> described it as ³the saddest > day of his >>>> >> life.² >>>>> Should >>> these isolated moments >>>>>>> and > statements be >> highlighted and >>>> >>> privileged >>>>> as representing the > 2 men¹s >>>>>>> >> position on the Babri Masjid >>> or >>>> should one >>>>> > judge them over a >> longer period >>>>>>> of time, weighing >>> their >>>> > statements and >>>>> their >> actions? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As for Mr. Geelani > and >>> evaluating >>>> his actions, >> do you >>>>> believe a > responsible >>>>>>> leader ought >>> to lead from >>>> the >> front or give > calls to >>>>> his followers to engage >>>>>>> >>> in actions >> that >>>> > will cause injury or even death >>>>> from the safety of his >>> >> > home? >>>>>>> Mr. >>>> Geelani is fully aware that in any part >>>>> of > this >> planet >>> if you pelt >>>>>>> >>>> stones at a man with a gun, there > is a >> fair >>>>> chance >>> that the man with the >>>> gun >>>>>>> is going > to >> retaliate.  When he was >>>>> >>> released from jail he made a >>>> > fine >>>>>>> >> statement calling for the end of >>> the >>>>> hartaal > calendar, saying >>>> that >> this was >>>>>>> not the way forward, >>> that > these >>>>> protests could not >> be >>>> sustained, that life >>>>>>> could > not >>> come to a standstill >>>>> >> (btw, the Sopore >>>> fruit mandi, > his >>>>>>> >>> constituency, continued to >> function >>>>> through this >>>> > entire period >>> hartaal >>>>>>> calendar or >> not).  These were wise >>>>> > words from a >>>> man who >>> has been in >> politics >>>>>>> for years.  Wise > words or the >>>>> thinking of >>>> >>> the ISI, >> I¹m not sure because > the >>>>>>> words were echoed by Syed >>>>> >>>> >>> >> Salahuddin.  What > follows is interesting: >>>>>>> Salahuddin¹s effigy is >>> >> burnt >>>> > and >>>>> a rumour is floated that Mr. Geelani is >>>>>>> selling out >> > to >>> Omar >>>> Abdullah. >>>>>  Does Mr. Geelani stand by his words? >  Does >> he >>>>>>> do >>> what >>>> Gandhi does after >>>>> Chauri Chaura? >  No, of course >> not.  He does >>> a >>>>>>> total >>>> U-turn and > starts >>>>> competing with >> Masrat Alam on the >>> calendars, >>>>>>> >>>> > subjecting the people of the >>>>> >> valley to more misery. >>>  What do > ordinary >>>>>>> >>>> Kashmiris feel about >> the >>>>> continuation of > this >>> absurd form of protest >>>> where >>>>>>> they >> and not the >>>>> > Government of India >>> suffer?  You may find the >>>> answer >> in > the >>>>>>> fact that >>>>> there was not a >>> single protest when > Masrat >>>> >> Alam was arrested. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Again >>>>> Mr. >>> Geelani > saying he >> Œpersonally¹ >>>> favours the accession to Pakistan >>>>>>> >>> > but >>>>> will >> Œabide by¹ what the people >>>> of J&K want is neither here > nor >>> >> there. >>>>>>> >>>>> What you see as a maturing >>>> position may > be read as >> an >>> opportunistic one >>>>>>> >>>>> until such time as it > is >>>> tested.  As I >> have >>> already shown in my last post >>>>>>> >>>>> > Mr. Geelani, his >>>> >> political party >>> and his ideology have since the > mid-90¹s >>>>>>> >>>>> shown >> no such >>>> respectful >>> accommodation of > the political views of others. >>>>> >>  In >>>>>>> fact >>>> any >>> > divergence from this view has been silenced by the >> bullet. >>>>> >  If >>>> >>> this >>>>>>> is someone¹s history‹ and as much as I >> should > wish it >>> otherwise-- >>>>> >>>> it is >>>>>>> very, very difficult for >> > me to suspend my >>> cynicism and turn >>>>> >>>> enthusiastic >>>>>>> > cartwheels >> on the basis of one >>> speech to a select audience >>>> > in >>>>> New >> Delhi. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> With reference to >>> your point about > borders:  The >>>> >> GoI >>>>> acknowledges that >>>>>>> Kashmir is >>> an > ³issue² between India >> and >>>> Pakistan.  As I >>>>> have mentioned in > my >>>>>>> >>> first post, it >> objects to the >>>> word ³dispute² as > it >>>>> >>> internationalizes >>>>>>> >> Kashmir, ignores the Simla >>>> > Agreement and takes it >>> out of >>>>> the >> domain of >>>>>>> bilateral > talks back to >>>> the UN.  If you want >>> my >> personal >>>>> opinion on > this >>>>>>> (and I have argued on >>>> this list in >>> >> the past), I agree > with >>>>> this stand.  I >>>>>>> see the UN as a >>>> >> forum >>> where, > sadly, world powers have >>>>> always manipulated >>>>>>> >> nations and >>>> > it >>> certainly does not have the moral >>>>> standing after >> Iraq > and >>>>>>> >>>> >>> Afghanistan to really mediate anywhere in the >>>>> >> > world.  India and >>>> >>> Pakistan >>>>>>> need to, and can settle the > issue >> taking into >>>>> account >>> the >>>> wishes of all the >>>>>>> > people of J&K as >> it stood in 1947.  As I >>>>> >>> have argued >>>> in the > past and as >>>>>>> >> Gen.Musharraf recently said on an >>> NDTV >>>>> > interview >>>> that India and >> Pakistan >>>>>>> were very close to >>> > drafting an agreement >>>>> based >>>> on >> his 4-point formula. >>>>>>> >>> > Interestingly, various interpretations of >>>>> >> this >>>> 4-point formula > were >>> thrown >>>>>>> up by all shades of political >> parties > but >>>>> >>>> there was a >>> broad consensus on >>>>>>> this whether >> from > the mainstream groups >>>> or >>>>> the >>> separatists.  The only >> > leader >>>>>>> that rejected this was Mr. >>>> Geelani >>> who >>>>> insisted > that >> the Kashmir ³dispute² >>>>>>> be solved on the UN >>>> >>> Resolutions > of >>>>> >> 1948! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As for borders themselves: what is >>> > Europe >>>> today but >> a borderless >>>>> continent? >>>>>>> You critique > the idea of >>> the >>>> >> nation-state and yet you want to >>>>> re-invent > the >>>>>>> wheel by >>> >> supporting yet >>>> another nation-state in > independent >>>>> Kashmir. >>  Why, >>>>>>> >>> when a 21st c. >>>> solution > in the 4-point formula, similar >> to >>>>> the form >>> and >>>>>>> content > of >>>> the EU, could be in the >> making? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best >>>>> >>> > wishes, >>>>>>> >>>> >> Sonia >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 22/10/10 8:10 > PM, >>> "Shuddhabrata >> Sengupta" >>>>> >>>> > wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>> Dear >> Sonia, (don't worry Pawan, > its >>>> a >>>>> lot less than '3000 >>> >> lines') >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I said - > " I do not agree with >>>> much of >>>>> >> what >>> Geelani Saheb > represents >>>>>>>> politically, or ideologically, >>>> >> but I >>> > have >>>>> no hesitation in saying that what >>>>>>>> he >>>>>>>> said >> > yesterday, >>>> >>> was surprising >>>>> for its gentleness, for its >> > consideration, >>>>>>>> >>> for >>>>>>>> >>>> its moderation, even >>>>> for > its >> liberality and open >>> heartedness." >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> What part > of this >> sentence >>>>> seems to suggest >>> that I am 'aligning' with >>>> > SAS >>>>>>>> >> Geelani. The 'I do not >>>>> agree with >>> much' does not > seem to indicate >>>> >> alignment, >>>>>>>> or endorsement to >>>>> me. >>> > The rest of the statement is >> a >>>> statement of fact. Were >>>>>>>> SAS > Geelani >>> to >>>>> have said words >> that were >>>> inflammatory yesterday, > I would not >>>>>>>> >>> have >>>>> >> hesitated to said that he >>>> had. > Allow me to elaborate by way of >>> >> an >>>>>>>> >>>>> example >>>>>>>> - I > have never >>>> been in agreement with >> the >>> political philosophy >>>>> > of >>>>>>>> M.K.Gandhi, >>>>>>>> >>>> but I >> never make the >>> mistake of > saying that my >>>>> disagreement with Gandhi >>>> >> (my >>>>>>>> refusal >>> > to endorse Gandhian ideology and >>>>> what it means >>>> >> politically) >>> > amounts >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> my failure to recognize >>>>> >> Gandhi's >>>> > gentleness, >>> his consideration, his >>>>>>>> moderation, his >> > liberality >>>>> and its >>>> open >>> heartedness. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>  I have > been >> strongly critical Islamist >>>>> >>>> >>> politics, including on > this >> forum, >>>>>>>> whenever I have considered it >>>>> >>>> >>> necessary > to do so. >> That is one thing, and it >>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>> where I >>> > would >>>>> >>>> differ >> from SAS Geelani, explicitly, categorically, > unless >>> he >>>>>>>> makes >> a >>>>> >>>> statement, like the Mirwaiz did > recently, abjuring an >>> >> 'Islamist >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>> future >>>>>>>> for > Kashmir'. But to say that SAS >>> >> Geelani has never expressed >>>>> >>>> > regret for the >>>>>>>> violence that >> rocked >>> even the pro-Azadi camp > from >>>> within >>>>> is specious. >>>>>>>> >> Kashmiri >>>>>>>> >>> > polticians of all hues routinely >>>> issue >>>>> >> condemnations of > incidents >>> of >>>>>>>> terrorism, and targetted >>>> >> > assasinations. >>>>> Geelani, to my >>> knowledge, has not >>>>>>>> > been >>>>>>>> >> any >>>> exception. Eyewitnesses >>>>> speak >>> of seeing > him weeping at Abdul >> Ghani >>>>>>>> >>>> Lone's >>>>>>>> funeral. I do >>> > not >>>>> know, nor do I >> care, whether these tears >>>> were genuine. > All >>>>>>>> >>> I >>>>>>>> am >>>>> >> saying is that if the man has not > said >>>> that he celebrates >>> the assasins >> of>>>> >>>>> the elder > Mirwaiz, or Abdul Ghani >>>> Lone, or the >>> attacks on >> Dr. Shameema >>>>> > that >>>>>>>> you mention, then, it is >>>> unfair to >>> >> accuse him of > 'Not Saying' the >>>>> 'not >>>>>>>> saying'. He condemns >>>> >>> >> > assasinations. He does not celebrate the >>>>> assasin. This >>>>>>>> means >> > that >>> he >>>> cannot be accused of being the source of the >>>>> >> > assasination, >>>>>>>> >>> unless >>>> other concrete evidence is brought to > bear >> upon the >>>>> >>> case. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>  You >>>> may be right when > you say that >> SAS Geelani may be >>> saying >>>>> one thing in >>>>>>>> >>>> > Delhi and another >> in Srinagar.  I am not >>> here to judge the >>>>> > sincerity, >>>> or >>>>>>>> >> lack >>>>>>>> of,  or ambiguity, >>> of these > statements. I think >>>>> >>>> >> politically, the significant >>>>>>>> > thing >>> is that whatever he may have >> said >>>> in >>>>> the past, SAS > Geelani, HAS >>> to >>>>>>>> speak >>>>>>>> a >> language today that is >>>> > not >>>>> secterian. He may >>> have done so in the >> past. Let >>>>>>>> us > remember that >>>> he was >>>>> an elected >>> member of the >> J&K assembly > for more than >>>>>>>> one term >>>> in the past, >>>>> >>> and that >> means > he had to swear fealty of some sort to >>>>>>>> >>>> the Indian >>>>> >>> >> > constitution. Judging by this, we should be able to evaluate >>>> >> > his >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>> 'Islamist' commitments in the light of his sometime >> > loyalty to >>>> an >>>>> >>> apparently >>>>>>>> secular constitution. If the > sake >> of argument, we say >>>> >>> that we >>>>> should take >>>>>>>> > seriously what >> came 'after' as representing >>> the >>>> 'maturing' > of >>>>> his >> position, >>>>>>>> then, if his avowedly >>> 'secterian' > / >>>> Islamist / >> Pro-Pakistan >>>>> phase came after >>>>>>>> his > phase >>> as an MLA of the >>>> >> J&K assembly, then, so too >>>>> has this > 'current' >>>>>>>> >>> phase >>>>>>>> >> come >>>> 'after' his secterian > posturing. I am >>>>> not the one who >>> needs >> to split >>>>>>>> >>>> > these hairs, but clearly, if some emphasis >>>>> is >>> >> bieng given to > chronology as >>>> a >>>>>>>> way of attributing the man's >>> >> > politics >>>>> to the man's biography, then >>>> let's >>>>>>>> > stay >>>>>>>> >>> >> consistent, and say, that if >>>>> the current SAS > Geelani >>>> is saying >> things >>> that >>>>>>>> don't seem to require > the >>>>> automatic assumption >>>> >> of an Isamic >>> state (which > is >>>>>>>> what we would expect >>>>> from the >> 'old' >>>> Geelani, >>> > then, we have every reason to >>>>>>>> take it as >>>>> >> seriously as > when >>>> he >>> made his decision to abandon 'mainstream' >>>>>>>> >> > electoral >>>>> politics in >>>> >>> Jammu and Kashmir for the hardline >> > fringe. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Indeed, I >>>>> would >>> go >>>> so far as to say > that >> as far as we are concerned, we >>>>>>>> >>> should >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>> > assume, and >> hold him, and his followers, responsible to >>> the > Œevolution¹>> >>>> >> of >>>>>>>> their statements, as they occur. If he > goes >>> back on the >> broad, >>>>> >>>> liberal >>>>>>>> nature >>>>>>>> of > a vision for Azad >>> kashmir >> (which, >>>> incidentally, >>>>> among other > things, >>>>>>>> included the >>> >> somewhat whimsical >>>> detail of a > provision >>>>> of compensation >> for >>>>>>>> >>> damages were a > believing >>>> Muslim to damage a bottle of >>>>> >> alchohl of >>> a >>>>>>>> > non-believer), then, we >>>> should hold him >> responsible for that >>>>> >>> > regression. He >>>>>>>> made a speech >>>> that was >> refreshingly free > of >>> Islamist >>>>> rhetoric yesterday, >>>>>>>> >> that >>>>>>>> >>>> spoke > in the broad >>> terms of 'Insaaniyat' - >>>>> Humanity. >> If Atal > Behari >>>> Vajpayee >>>>>>>> can be >>> appreciated, as indeed he >> > should >>>>> have been, for >>>> speaking in terms >>> of >>>>>>>> > 'Insaaniyat' >> when it came to thinking >>>>> about the >>>> solution to >>> > the question >> of >>>>>>>> Jammu and Kashmir, why could the >>>>> >>>> > mainstream >>> media not >> pick up the fact that >>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>> least > in stated >>>> terms, >>>>> >>> >> SAS Geelani was making as major a move, by > invoking >>>>>>>> >>>> >> 'Insaaniyat' >>> over >>>>> secterian > considerations, exactly as Vajpayee >> had >>>> done. >>>>>>>> >>> Recognizing > this >>>>> does not require us to align >> with, or endorse, >>>> either >>> > SAS >>>>>>>> Geelani, or >>>>> Atal Behari >> Vajpayee, it simply requires us > to >>>> >>> register a fact >>>>>>>> that a >>>>> >> major move is in process. > That politics >>> is >>>> being transformed, even >> as >>>>>>>> we >>>>> > speak. I am amazed that this >>>> >>> recognition is being >> painted as > 'alignment, >>>>>>>> >>>>> or >>>>>>>> endorsement'. >>> I >>>> am >> amazed > that this recognition is not getting the >>>>> space I >>>>>>>> >>> think >> > it >>>> deserves, simply as a NEWS story. SAS Geelani says he >>>>> > wishes >>> >> India >>>>>>>> >>>> to >>>>>>>> be a strong country, a regional > power, that >> he >>>>> >>> supports (in >>>> principle) a >>>>>>>> future > permanent place for >> India on the >>> United >>>>> Natons >>>> Security > Council, once >>>>>>>> Kashmir >> is liberated   - in >>> other words, > he >>>>> is >>>> saying, let us go, and >> we >>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>> stand >>> > with you, dont you think >>>>> >>>> this is BIG >> news. That is what I > was >>> trying >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> talk about. Trying >>>> >> to >>>>> talk > about does not make >>> me a camp follower of SAS >>>>>>>> Geelani >> or > any >>>> other >>>>> politician, in >>> India, Kashmir, or >> > elsewhere. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> My sense is, >>>> the >>>>> movement >>> for > Azadi in >> Kashmir has gone beyond the persona >>>>>>>> >>>> of >>>>>>>> > SAS >>>>> >>> >> Geelani, and while he is universally respected for his >>>> > integrity >>> >> and >>>>>>>> >>>>> incorruptability, his word is by no means, > Œlaw¹. He, >>>> >> and >>> other leaders >>>>> like >>>>>>>> him, are being > Œled¹ as much as they >> are >>>> >>> Œleading¹ the people they >>>>> claim > to >>>>>>>> represent. Part of >> this >>> process >>>> means giving up the > secterian >>>>> rhetoric that >>>>>>>> >> people in >>> Kashmir >>>> genuinely > feel alienated by. We should >>>>> welcome >> this >>>>>>>> >>>> >>> > development. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Now, I come to the views that >> he >>>>> > holds >>> regarding >>>> independence and merger >>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>> >> > Pakistan. He has >>> said, >>>>> including >>>> in his recent interview > with >> Seema Mustafa >>>>>>>> that >>> he PERSONALLY >>>>> prefers >>>> > accession to >> Pakistan, but that he is willing >>> to >>>>>>>> abide > by >>>>> whatever >>>> the >> people of Jammu and Kashmir decide. I >>> do not > think >>>>>>>> >> that >>>>>>>> >>>>> the >>>> people of Jammu and Kashmir > have a >>> future with >> Pakistan.So, I >>>>> >>>> disagree >>>>>>>> with SAS > Geelani's personal >>> view. >> I strongly argue for a >>>>> >>>> > demilitarized, >>>>>>>> independent, secular >>> >> Jammu and Kashmir. That > makes me >>>>> >>>> someone who does not >>>>>>>> >> endorse >>> SAS Geelani's > position. Let's look at >>>> thigns >>>>> this way, had >> this >>> > been >>>>>>>> 1935, I would probably have not been >>>> in >> agreement >>>>> > with M.K. >>> Gandhi's vision >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> what he thought >> the >>>> > future of South >>>>> >>> Asia and India ought to be. But that >>>>>>>> >> > does >>>>>>>> not >>>> mean that I >>> would >>>>> dismiss Gandhi as > irrelevant, >> or someone to be >>>> mocked >>>>>>>> and >>> reviled. I >>>>> > would engage with >> him politicially, as many >>>> currents in >>> > India >>>>>>>> at that >>>>> time >> did. They were not uncritical of >>>> > Gandhi (from >>> the left and >> the >>>>>>>> >>>>> right) but they knew that > Gandhi's >>>> voice had a >>> certain >> resonance. I think>>>> >>>>> > that >>>>>>>> the attitude that >>>> people >>> have >> towards SAS Geelani is > not dissimilar. >>>>> They >>>>>>>> may >>>>>>>> >> not >>>> >>> agree with > him on many counts, and most Kashmiris that >>>>> I >> know >>>> >>> > personally >>>>>>>> would fit that description. But none would want >> > to >>>>> >>> dismiss >>>> or demonize him. >>>>>>>> Primarily because of > his >> unwillingness to >>> be an >>>>> >>>> occasional pawn in the > hands >>>>>>>> of >> the >>> occupation. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>  I have yet >>>> > to >>>>> come across an >> Indian >>> politician who is willing to say, > on >>>>>>>> >>>> the >>>>>>>> >>>>> >> record, that he >>> PERSONALLY prefers > that Jammu and Kashmir stay >>>> >> with >>>>> India, >>>>>>>> >>> > but >>>>>>>> will respect whatever the people of >> Jammu and >>>> > Kashmir >>>>> decide >>> in a free and >>>>>>>> fair plebiscite. If >> that > were to be the >>>> case, then >>>>> >>> we would get much further >>>>>>>> >> > than where we are today in >>>> Kashmir. I have >>> no >>>>> quarrel with > those >> who want >>>>>>>> Kashmir to stay in >>>> India. Theirs >>> is a > point >>>>> of >> view. It needs to be freely >>>>>>>> heard, freely >>>> > debated, >>> and if >> is >>>>> convincing to the people of Jammu and >>>>>>>> > Kashmir, >>>> best of >>> >> luck to those who >>>>> carry the day. What I am > against is >>>>>>>> >>>> >>> >> maintaining Jammu and Kashmir as >>>>> parts > of the Indian Union by >> force. >>>> >>> By >>>>>>>> violence. By > occupation. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >> Finally, I come to the >>> five >>>> > points, and whether or not, sticking to >> the >>>>>>>> >>>>> > point >>>>>>>> >>> about Kashmir >>>> being disputed is an >> obstacle. Lets > face facts. >>>>> Kashmir >>> is a >>>>>>>> dispute. >>>> Every >> single map > of the world that is not printed >>>>> >>> in India shows >>>>>>>> >>>> >> > it, >>>>>>>> visually, as a disputed territory. That is >>> why >>>>> the >> > Government of >>>> India has >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> put its silly ink >>> stamp > on >> atlases. >>>>> That is why >>>> there is a United Nations >>>>>>>> > Observer >>> >> group in Delhi, Islamabad >>>>> and >>>> Srinagar. United > Nations >> observers >>>>>>>> >>> are >>>>>>>> present, in the same >>>> > way, >>>>> in say >> Cyprus (another dispute) >>> Israel / >>>>>>>> > Palestine, >>>>>>>> >>>> another >> dispute. >>>>> What is the big deal >>> in > saying, yes, it is a dispute. >>>> >> Will >>>>>>>> India >>>>> disappear if > the >>> public secret is admitted to? As >> far as I >>>> am >>>>>>>> >>>>> > concerned >>>>>>>> >>> borders, and sovereignty, >> are less important > than >>>> the lives of >>>>> people. >>> If >>>>>>>> discussing >> a border, > and what it means, can >>>> be a method to >>>>> >>> save lives, >> > then >>>>>>>> refusing to do so, is a crime. The >>>> Government of >>> >> > India >>>>> can offer to >>>>>>>> 'discuss' >>>>>>>> - sovereignty > over >>>> >> those >>> areas of the >>>>> India-Tibet border that were taken > by >>>>>>>> >> force >>>> majeure >>> by British Imperial >>>>> power, but it > will sacrifice the >> lives of >>>>>>>> >>>> >>> hundreds of thousands of > people >>>>> in order to keep >> the fetish of the >>>> >>> Indian >>>>>>>> > Union's  soveriegnty and >>>>> >> integrity alive in the case of >>> > Jammu >>>> and Kashmir. >>>>>>>> This policy >> seems to me >>>>> to be > totally >>> criminal and >>>> misguided. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >> Borders are made > by human >>>>> beings, >>> and can be changed >>>> by human >> beings. > The >>>>>>>> geographical expression >>>>> >>> of the Union of India >> > is >>>> not divinely ordained. >>>>>>>> Sensible people all >>> over >>>>> > the >> world, understand >>>> that maps can change, and >>>>>>>> > that >>>>>>>> >>> they >> do change. >>>>> We hope that the >>>> map of China > can someday be drawn >>> >> in >>>>>>>> Chinese >>>>>>>> school >>>>> text > books >>>> without engulfing Tibet. >> If >>> that can be a > reasonable >>>>>>>> >>>>> desire, >>>>>>>> >>>> and not be >> seen as an >>> > 'obstruction', why should a similar desire >>>>> be seen >>>> >> as >>>>>>>> > an >>>>>>>> >>> obstruction in the case of India and Jammu and >>>>> >> > Kashmir. >>>> Arnab >>> Goswami >>>>>>>> repeatedly used the word > 'splittist' >> yestyerday to >>>>> >>>> refer >>> to all those who >>>>>>>> > were >>>>>>>> speaking >> at the meeting at the LTG >>>>> >>>> >>> yesterday. > A word that is used by >> the >>>>>>>> Chinese government and the >>>> >>> > Chinese >>>>> Communist Party >> whenever it refers to the >>>>>>>> Dalai Lama > and >>> the >>>> movement for >>>>> >> a free Tibet. Are we (our > government, >>>>>>>> >>> sections >>>>>>>> of >>>> our >> media) aping >>>>> > the Chinese government and the >>> behemoth of the >>>> >> Chinese >>>>>>>> > Communist Party in >>>>> aligning and >>> endorsing ourselves >> with the >>>> > fetish of a man >>>>>>>> made fiction of >>>>> >>> sovereignty. I >> should > hope that we >>>> can do better than that. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>> best >>>>> >> > regards, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >>> >> > Shuddha >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > >>>>> >>>> >> >>> _________________________________________ >>>>>>> > reader-list: an >> open >>>> >>> discussion >>>>> list on media and the > city. >>>>>>> Critiques & >>> >> Collaborations >>>>>>> >>>> To > subscribe: >>>>> send an email to >>> >> reader-list-request at sarai.net > with >>>> subscribe >>>>>>> in the >>>>> subject >>> >> header. >>>>>>> To > unsubscribe: >>>>> >>>> >>> >> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>>>> List >> > archive: >>>>> >>>> >>> >> > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>> > >>>> >> >>>>> >>> >>>> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >>>>>>> The Sarai Programme at > CSDS >>>>>>> >> Raqs >>> Media >>>>> >>>> Collective >>>>>>> > shuddha at sarai.net >>>>>>> >>> >> www.sarai.net >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> > www.raqsmediacollective.net >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > >>>> >>> >> _________________________________________ >>>>> reader-list: an > open >>>> >>> >> discussion >>>>> list on media and the city. >>>>> Critiques > & >> Collaborations >>>>> >>> To >>>> subscribe: send >>>>> an email to >> > reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in >>>> the subject >>>>> >> > header. >>>>> To unsubscribe: >>>>> >>>> >>> >> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>> List >> > archive: >>>>> >>>> >>> >> > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> >>>> >>> >> > ___________________________ >>>>> ______________ >>>> reader-list: an >> > open >>>> >>> discussion list on media and the >>>>> city. >>>> Critiques & >> > Collaborations >>>> >>> To >>>> subscribe: send an email to >>>>> >> > reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in >>>> the subject > header. >>>> >> To >>>>> unsubscribe: >>>> >>> >> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List >> > archive: >>>>> >>>> >>> >> > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> > _____________________ >>>> ____________________ >>> reader-list: an > open >>> >> discussion list on media and the >>>> city. >>> Critiques & > Collaborations >>> >> To >>> subscribe: send an email to >>>> > reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in >>> the subject header. >>> > To >>>> unsubscribe: >>> >> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List > archive: >>>> >>> >> > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >>> >>> >> >> > _____________________ >>> ____________________ >> reader-list: an open >> > discussion list on media and the >>> city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> > To >> subscribe: send an email to >>> reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in >> the subject header. >> To >>> unsubscribe: >> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: >>> >> > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> > > _____________________ >> ____________________ > reader-list: an open > discussion list on media and the >> city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To > subscribe: send an email to >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. > To >> unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: >> > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _____________________ > ____________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To > unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From indersalim at gmail.com Wed Oct 27 17:43:39 2010 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 17:43:39 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?iso-8859-1?q?Azadi=3A_The_Only_Way_=AD_Report_fro?= =?iso-8859-1?q?m_a_Turbulent_Few_Hours_in_Delhi?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: say after 20 years from now, both of you will cherish this little exchange... i tell u from my own experience... it is not ordinary that we talk, please continue love both of u is On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 5:22 PM, SJabbar wrote: > Thank you for your concern.  You're very kind. > > > On 27/10/10 2:36 PM, "Aditya Raj Baul" wrote: > >> Awwww.... poor girl. Would you like a candy? > > On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 6:10 PM, >> SJabbar wrote: >> Sigh... Now how does one begin to >> answer this diatribe.  Tell you what: you >> win, dude.  OK?  Khush raho. >> >> >> >> On 26/10/10 4:32 PM, "Aditya Raj Baul" wrote: >> >>> >> My name is Aditya Raj Baul. Just because I'm not famous like you, you >> can >>> >> allege that my real name is something else. This is offensive, to >> say the >>> >> least. >> >> Your pre-condition for dialogue with me proves my charge. If my >>> >> "real" >> identity matters to thsi conversation, as you claim it does, then >>> >> it >> means your response would depend on who I am. You would say one thing >> >> if I >>> were Praveen Swami, another if I were Dileep Padgaonkar, a third >> if >> I were the >>> India editor of The India, Australia, something >> completely >> different if I were >>> Masarat Alam, something more nuanced if >> I were Yasin >> Malik, something more >>> aggressive if I were SAS Geelani. >> >> You accuse me >> of not being Aditya Raj Baul. >>> Yet it is you who's afraid >> of being Sonia >> Jabbar. >> >> For all you know, may be >>> I'm you. >> >> I asked you: >> >> "I like >> it how Sonia Jabbar wants to hold Kashmir >>> hostage to history - >> to the >> histories of India and Pakistan, to the history of >>> what Geelani >> has or >> has not done, has or has not said. She does not think >>> history >> is >> irrelevant to today's people who want azadi today in >>> today's >> context - >> sorry, she says, India has signed the Simla agreement, >>> and >> Geelani is a >> fanatic. Thank you. Fair enough, I suppose. But will >>> she >> apply the same >> rigours of historical understanding to the Indian state >> and >>> its actions >> in Kashmir? Please?" >> >> I would be happy to clarify my question, if >>> only >> you'd ask me what >> about it you don't understand. But all you want to do >>> >> is be >> condescending, suspicious and irritable. >> >> Thanks but not thanks, >> >> Aditya >>> Raj Baul >> >> >> On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 4:22 PM, SJabbar >> >>> wrote: >>> Sorry, didn't mean to be.  Was just >> poking mild fun at your assumed >>> name. >>> I'd be very happy to have a >> serious conversation with you any time, >>> but it >>> would be nice if I knew >> whom I was addressing.  I'm really not >>> interested in >>> scoring debating >> points and this is what has been happening in >>> this forum >>> particularly >> with people with false identities. >>> Sincerely, >>> >>> Sonia >>> >>> >>> On >> 26/10/10 4:15 PM, "Aditya Raj Baul" >>> wrote: >>> >>>> >> You can be as contemptuous as you want. Doesn't take away from >>> your >>>> >> hypocrisy >>> >>> On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 4:10 PM, SJabbar >>> >> >>>> wrote: >>>> Oh whenever you want, dear boy, >> since >>> you believe in making >>>> history. >>>> Atilla D. Hun >>>> >>>> >>>> On >> 26/10/10 4:01 >>> PM, "Aditya Raj Baul" >>>> >> wrote: >>>> >>>>> My question >>> is: when will you make Rahul >>>> PM? >>>> >>>> On >> Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 3:58 PM, >>>>> >>> SJabbar >>>> >> wrote: >>>>> Aditya Raj Baul, >>>>> What >>> exactly is >>>>> your >> question? >>>>> >>>> Sincerely, >>>>> Sonia Gandhi >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>> On 26/10/10 >> 2:04 PM, "Aditya >>>>> Raj Baul" >>>> >>> >> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I like it how Sonia Jabbar >>>>> wants to >>>> hold Kashmir >>> >> hostage to history - >>>>> to the >>>>>> histories of India and >>>>> >>>> >> Pakistan, >>> to the history of what Geelani >>>>> has or has not >>>>>> done, >> has or >>>> has >>>>> >>> not said. She does not think history >>>>> is irrelevant >> to today's >>>>>> >>>> >>> people who >>>>> want azadi today in today's >>>>> >> context - sorry, she says, >>> India >>>> has >>>>>> signed >>>>> the Simla >> agreement, and >>>>> Geelani is a >>> fanatic. Thank you. >>>> Fair enough, >>>>>> >> I >>>>> suppose. But will she >>>>> apply >>> the same rigours of >>>> historical >> understanding >>>>> to >>>>>> the Indian >>> state >>>>> and its actions in >>>> >> Kashmir? Please? >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Oct >>>>> 25, >>> 2010 at >>>>>> 9:53 AM, >> SJabbar >>>> wrote: >>>>>> Dear >>>>> >>> >> Shuddha, >>>>>> >>>>>> I think >>>>>> our >>>> differences have narrowed >> considerably >>> as you >>>>> continue to >>>>>> clarify >>>> your >>>>>> position. >>  Reading between >>> your lines, you seem >>>>> to think that >>>> I >>>>>> have >> a >>>>>> problem with your >>> engaging with Mr. Geelani or >>>>> that the >>>> >> problem was >>>>>> your >>>>>> >>> sharing a stage with him. I do not not. >>  In >>>>> >>>> politics there are no >>>>>> >>> pariahs. >>>>>>  If someone >> represents a >>>> constituency-- >>>>> no matter how >>> marginal-- >>>>>> that >> is >>>>>> part of the social >>>> fabric you cannot >>>>> >>> ignore it.  It may >> surprise you >>>>>> and >>>>>>  many on this >>>> list to know >>> that Mr. >>>>> >> Geelani and I have known each other >>>>>> >>>>>> since >>>> 1997 and >>> have >> extremely frank >>>>> and cordial relations. My problem was> >>>>>> >>>> with >>> >> the language of your report of >>>>> the meeting where your >>>> >>> >> enthusiasm >>>>>> >>>>>> (“tallest separatist leader,” he is >>>>> “NOT >> against >>>> >>> dialogue,” “all that they >>>>>> >>>>>> are asking for is the >> Right to >>>>> >>>> >>> self-determination”) masked a political >>>>>> >>>>>> >> reality that was far >>> more >>>>> >>>> complex and brutal.  However, you have >> since >>>>>> >>>>>> clarified >>> that you do >>>> not >>>>> endorse Mr. Geelani’s >>  politics and you >>> concede >>>>>> >>>>>> that he may >>>> well have >>>>> been >> playing to audiences in >>> Delhi,  bringing us more >>>>>> >>>>>> or >>>> less on >> the >>>>> same page except that >>> past experience has made me less >>>> >> likely >>>>>> >>>>>> to share >>>>> your belief >>> that someone like Mr. Geelani >> can be >>>> “USED” or that you >>>>>> >>>>>> can >>>>> >>>  “compel them to come to >> a degree of >>>> moderation in action, and >>> a >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> greater, more >> imaginative radicalism in >>>> terms of >>> conceptions.” >>>>>> >>>>>> I am >>>>> >> glad >>>>>> you agree that people and >>>> >>> groups, state and non-state actors >> who >>>>>> >>>>> have >>>>>> committed crimes >>> must >>>> stand trial and justice >> must be done, whether >>>>> it >>>>>> is >>>>>> SAS >>> Geelani, >>>> Yasin Malik, >> Syed Salahuddin or various army generals >>>>> who >>>>>> >>> have >>>>>> >>>> >> presided over rights abuses while they served in J&K. I have >>> in >>>>> >> this >>>>>> >>>> forum >>>>>> written of a Truth & Reconciliation Commission >>> >> modeled on the >>>>> >>>> South >>>>>> African >>>>>> experience that should >> follow >>> the final settlement on >>>>> >>>> J&K. >>>>>> >>>>>> I am also >> glad >>>>>> that you >>> agree with my point of the futility >>>> of >>>>> >> creating a >>>>>> new >>> nation-state >>>>>> in the form of an independent >>>> >> Kashmir ( “I >>>>> am not for >>> the >>>>>> moment saying and >>>>>> have never >> said that >>>> an independent >>>>> >>> Kashmir will be in any >>>>>> way a >> qualitative >>>>>> improvement >>>> (in terms of >>> a >>>>> state form) than an >> occupied >>>>>> Kashmir,”).  But you >>>>>> >>>> seem to >>> believe that >>>>> it >> is necessary because “ It may >>>>>> at least lead to >>>> >>> the >>>>>> >> withdrawal of the >>>>> reality of a brutal occupation.” By >>>>>> this >>> I >>>> >> assume your >>>>>> vision of regime >>>>> change means replacing one >>> >> democratic >>>>>> >>>> republic with another >>>>>> democratic >>>>> republic and >> not >>> an Islamic republic >>>> or a >>>>>> military state.  In >>>>>> which >> case >>>>> “the >>> reality of a brutal >>>> occupation” must >>>>>> mean the >> withdrawal of >>>>>> >>>>> >>> hundreds of thousands of >>>> uniformed men in J&K. >>  But >>>>>> do you really >>> need >>>>> to >>>>>> create a new >>>> nation-state >> in order to demilitarize >>>>>> >>> Kashmir? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> From 1947 >> to >>>>>> >>>> 1989 India’s military presence was >>> restricted to the >>>>> >> borders >>>>>> and to the >>>> few >>>>>> garrisons of >>> Srinagar, Baramulla, >> Leh, Udhampur >>>>> and Poonch. >>>>>> >>>> Between 1989- >>>>>> >>> 1992 India was >> being seriously challenged on >>>>> the >>>> military >>>>>> front by >>> >> thousands >>>>>> of Kashmiri militants and Islamist >>>>> >>>> mujahideen. >>  The >>> troop >>>>>> surge only >>>>>> happened only around 1992-93 and >>>> >> the >>>>> Indian >>> military was only >>>>>> able to >>>>>> control the situation >> around >>>> 1995. >>> In >>>>> 1996 the situation was such >>>>>> that it >>>>>> >> was the first time in >>>> >>> 6 years it was >>>>> possible to hold elections >> and >>>>>> yet then >>>>>> as in >>> 2002 >>>> there were hundreds >>>>> of >> assassinations of political >>>>>> candidates >>> and >>>>>> >>>> ordinary workers >> of >>>>> political parties (the right to >>>>>> >>> self-determination >>>> >> is >>>>>> never extended to >>>>> this group). >>>>>> >>>>>> >>> Anyway, my point >> is that >>>> 500,000 or 700,000 >>>>>> troops were >>>>> not there >>> as a >>>>>> >> permanent fixture >>>> since 1947 and the ‘most >>>>>> militarized >>>>> >>> place >> in the world’ >>>>>> was not >>>> always so.  It is both desirable >>> >> and >>>>>> >>>>> possible to withdraw troops >>>> and >>>>>> it should be done in >> a >>> phased manner. >>>>>> >>>>>  Though I have been vocal >>>> in >>>>>> >> advocating this >>> since 2001, sadly, I believe >>>>> it >>>>>> will be >> linked >>>> to the final >>>>>> >>> settlement and will not happen before >>>>> >> because of >>>>>> the >>>> many sleeper >>> cells of >>>>>> militants that get >> activated the >>>>> moment there >>>> is >>>>>> >>> peace or at least as >> they >>>>>> say ‘normalcy’— as we have >>>>> seen in >>>> last >>> week’s >>>>>> >> encounter between troops and >>>>>> the JeM in Srinagar. >>>>>  BTW >>>> >>> >> Srinagar district was >>>>>> one of the districts being >>>>>> examined for >>> >> the >>>>> >>>> revocation of the Disturbed >>>>>> Areas Act.  This encounter >>> >> will >>>>>> make it >>>>> >>>> extremely difficult for the state >>>>>> government >> to >>> do so. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>  I am >>>> glad >>>>> you agree with me that >> the >>> 4-point >>>>>> formula can be a solution >>>> to >>>>>> the >>>>> vexed >> Kashmir issue, >>> however your reading >>>>>> of what went wrong >>>> and >> putting >>>>>> >>>>> the onus >>> of the failure of implementation >>>>>> squarely >> on >>>> New Delhi’s >>>>> >>> shoulder >>>>>> is wrong.  Yes, there were delays on >> New >>>>>> >>>> Delhi’s side, >>> but >>>>> those were not >>>>>> remarkable >> considering a political >>>>>> >>>> >>> consensus had to be >>>>> built within >> the >>>>>> country (I think it was in >>> 2008 >>>> during >>>>>> the >> Amarnath >>>>> Yatra that I explained >>>>>> the entire >>> process at >>>> length >> in this >>>>>> forum). >>>>>  Very simply what happened >>> was >>>>>> that >> the >>>> Lawyer’s Movement in >>>>>> Pakistan >>>>> overtook the >>> Kashmir >> process and once >>>>>> >>>> Mushrraf was ousted and >>>>>> Benazir >>>>> was >>> >> assassinated the country plunged >>>> into >>>>>> political turmoil and >>> >> the >>>>>> >>>>> Zaradari government was too weak to >>>> break from >>>>>> >> Pakistan’s >>> traditional >>>>> stand >>>>>> of the UN Resolutions. >>>>  Both >> Gen Kayani and >>> the >>>>>> ISI were not >>>>> comfortable >>>>>> with >> Musharraf’s >>>> radical >>> departure from tradition. >>>>>> Both >>>>> believe >> Pakistan’s >>>>>> best >>>> >>> interests are served by keeping the Kashmir >> pot >>>>>> >>>>> boiling, >>>> >>> maintaining >>>>>> India as ‘enemy no 1’, >> encouraging extremism in >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> Afghanistan to maintain >>>>>> >> ‘strategic depth,’ and to scuttle any >>>> >>> influence >>>>>> >>>>> India may >> wield in >>>>>> Afghanistan.  So, as much as I >>> and >>>> many others >> would >>>>> like >>>>>> to see the 4-point >>>>>> formula being >>> at least >>>> >> discussed, under the >>>>> present >>>>>> Pakistani dispensation >>>>>> >>> it is >> highly >>>> unlikely. >>>>>> >>>>>> When you >>>>> advocate a plebiscite and >> you >>> believe that >>>>>> >>>> the azadi movement must >>>>>> be >>>>> peaceful >> then you >>> must also accommodate >>>> the >>>>>> possibility of a >> partitioned >>>>>> >>>>> J&K, >>> where large sections of Jammu >>>> and all >> of >>>>>> Ladakh would not vote >>> for >>>>>> >>>>> Pakistan (and under what >> UN >>>> Resolution would the >>>>>> option >>> of independence >>>>> be >>>>>> >> granted since NO UN >>>> Resolution holds that >>> option >>>>>> and no Kashmiri >> to >>>>> date has >>>>>> appealed >>>> to the UN to pass >>> a resolution to >>>>>> >> include the option?) >>>>> And how >>>>>> >>>> would you >>> persuade Pakistan to >> allow a >>>>>> plebiscite in areas under >>>>> >>>> their >>>>>> >>> control?  And >> what is your opinion of the >>>>>> vast region of >>>>> >>>> >>> >> Gilgit-Baltistan >>>>>> that by Pakistani law has been severed from >>>>>> >> the >>>> >>> state >>>>> of Jammu & Kashmir and >>>>>> where its citizens have >> NO >>> fundamental >>>>>> >>>> rights as >>>>> its constitutional status >>>>>> has >> not as >>> yet been >>>> determined? >>>>>> >>>>>> I am >>>>>> >>>>> asking these >> questions not to >>> score points but >>>> for us to locate what >> is >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> moral or desirable >>> within what is real and >>>> possible >> not just for >>>>> Kashmiris >>>>>> >>>>>> who >>> are but a small part of the >>>> >> state, but of all the people >>>>> of Jammu >>> & >>>>>> >>>>>> >> Kashmir. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> >>>> >>> >> Sonia >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> My >> question is, >>> what do we >>>> do >>>>>> next. I think that this means that >> the >>>>> people >>>>>>> >>> 'learn' to USE >>>> them, to >>>>>> compel them to >> come to a degree of >>>>> >>> moderation in >>>>>>> action, >>>> and a >> greater, >>>>>> more imaginative radicalism >>> in >>>>> terms of >>>> >> conceptions. >>>>>>> That is why, the >>>>>> current situation >>> in >> Kashmir, >>>>> where >>>> the 'Leaders' are being >>>>>>> 'Led' by people >>>>>> >> is >>> interesting to me. I >>>>> >>>> find it POSITIVE that they have to >> do >>>>>>> >>> flip-flops so >>>>>> often, from >>>>> >>>> Hartal-to-No Hartal- to >> Hartal again. >>> This shows >>>>>>> that they are >>>>>> NOT >>>>> >>>> running >> the street. Things are >>> unpredictable. The change in >>>>>>> >> the >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> 'temperature' of SAS >>> Geelani's statements may be as much >> due to the >>>>> >>>> fact >>>>>>> >>>>>> that he >>> is no longer in a position to >> call all the shots. >>>>> >>>> Therefore, he >>> has >>>>>>> >>>>>> less to lose by >> 'changing' his tenor. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>> There >>>>> >>> is a way in which >> the >>>>>> language of politics has changed, and it >>>> >>> has >>>>>>> >>>>> >> changed because of the way in >>>>>> which people are >>> communicating >>>> on >> all sorts >>>>> of >>>>>>> fora. Though they may, out >>>>>> of >>> affection, >> still say >>>> that only Geelani >>>>> will do >>>>>>> the Tarjumani, the >>> >> truth >>>>>> is, everyone is >>>> doing their own >>>>> Tarjumani now. >> and >>>>>>> >>> that is the hardest nut >>>>>> for the >>>> Government of >> India >>>>> to crack. As >>> an anarchist, >>>>>>> I find this >>>>>> >>>> >> situation, of the actual, >>>>> >>> concrete, refusal of >> 'representational >>>>>>> forms >>>> of >>>>>> politics' . >>> however >>>>> >> ephemeral it might be at present, quite >>>>>>> >>>> delightful. >>> SO >>>>>> >> much so, that a >>>>> 'theatre' of leadership continues, >>>> but >>>>>>> >>> >> actuality presumes a >>>>>> totally >>>>> different language of >>>> >>> >> politics. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I find this a fertile situation, >>>>>> >>>>> one >> latent >>> with >>>> possibilities, for everyone. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As for your >> other >>>>> >>> point, >>>>>> about >>>> how close we all were to the beginnings >> of the >>>>>>> long >>> road >>>>> towards a >>>>>> >>>> solution with Musharraf's >> four point formula - I >>> agree >>>>>>> with >>>>> you. But, >>>> then, >>>>>> it >> was the Government of India >>> that scuttled that >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>> possibility. >> If the >>>>>> government of India >>> had acted then, on what was on >>>>> >>>> >> offer, >>>>>>> perhaps things >>>>>> would >>> not have come to the situation >> where >>>> they >>>>> are at present. >>>>>>> Too >>> much >>>>>> has gone wrong >> since then. I am not >>>> a >>>>> nationalist of any >>> sort, and to >>>>>>> >> me, >>>>>> ALL nation states, and all >>>> nation >>>>> states in >>> waiting, >>  are ultimately the>> >>>>>> actors of the tragedies >>>> of their >>>>> >>> own >> making and choosing, >>>>>>> So, basically, I >>>>>> am not for the >>>> >> moment >>> saying >>>>> and have never said that an >>>>>>> independent >>>>>> >> Kashmir will >>>> >>> be in any way a >>>>> qualitative improvement (in terms >> of >>>>>>> a state >>>>>> >>> form) >>>> than an occupied >>>>> Kashmir, but, It >> may at least lead to >>> the >>>>>>> >>>> withdrawal >>>>>> of the reality of >>>>> >> a brutal >>> occupation. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> For me, >>>> whatever makes that >>>>>> >> possible, I am >>>>> >>> prepared to accept. There were, >>>> and >>>>>>> remain >> many >>>>>> possibilities >>> that span >>>>> the spectrum from where >>>> the >> situation is >>>>>>> at >>> present >>>>>> to Indpendence or >>>>> accession >> to >>>> Pakistan. But thinking >>> about those >>>>>>> >>>>>> possibilities >> require >>>>> all >>>> Indians to stop >>> thinking only out of the >> Indian>> >>>>>> nationalist box. You >>>>> >>>> know very >>> well, that many >> different kinds of >>>>>> arrangement >>>>>>> could >>>> have >>>>> >>> been >> explored. including maximum autonomy under the >>>>>> aegis of >>>> a >>>>>>> >>> >> joint >>>>> India-Pakistan guarantee, which is what I understand >> the >>>>>> >>>> >>> Musharraf >>>>>>> >>>>> formula to have been, But the bottom >> line is, whatever >>> is >>>> worked >>>>>> out has to >>>>> be >>>>>>> acceptable >> to the popular will, >>> hence a >>>> plebiscite with many >>>>>> options >>>>> on >> offer, >>>>>>> and the >>> freedom to campaign >>>> for the many options in >> an >>>>>> >>>>> atomsphere free >>> of >>>>>>> coercion. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >> Realistically speaking, I do not >>>>> >>> think >>>>>> that the Government of >> India has >>>> the >>>>>>> imagination any >>> longer to >>>>> try and >>>>>> think >> out of the box. If it >>>> can, that >>> would >>>>>>> be great. But, >>>>> going >> by the >>>>>> ostrich like attitude >>>> of >>> the Government in the >>>>>>> face >> of the >>>>> obvious >>>>>> alienation of the >>>> >>> Kashmiri people, I very >> much doubt it. >>>>>>> If >>>>> they had that >>>>>> >>>> >>> intelligence, they >> could have stopped the killings by the >>>>>>> >>>>> >>> security >>>> forces >> a >>>>>> long time ago. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Therefore, the only >>> remaining >>>>> >>>> >> possibility for ending the >>>>>> occupation seems to >>>>>>> me >>> to be >>>> >> independence >>>>> for Kashmir, in the short term, >>>>>> under the >>>> >>> >> custodianship >>>>>>> of the United >>>>> Nations, like happened in >>> >> Kosovo.Of >>>>>> >>>> course, I strongly assert >>>>>>> that the >>>>> political >> road >>> to this must be >>>> through >>>>>> non-violent means, through >>>>>>> >> mass >>>>> >>> political participation, >>>> of as many >>>>>> different sections >> of the >>>>> >>> population >>>>>>> as possible. It >>>> will be painful, >> for >>>>>> many Indians to >>> accept, >>>>> but in the long >>>>>>> term, >>>> and >> in the absence of any >>>>>> >>> other imaginative >>>>> solutions thought >> through >>>> by >>>>>>> the Indian >>> political elites >>>>>> (that chance >>>>> >> has come, and sadly, >>>> gone) it will >>> be >>>>>>> in the best interests >> of >>>>>> the >>>>> people of India. Of >>>> course, >>> the challenge for >> the >>>>>>> people of Kashmir >>>>>> >>>>> would be to think >>>> >>> through a >> vision of independence that does >>>>>>> not have >>>>> them >>>>>> >>> switch >>>> >> slavery to Indian occupation to slavery to the >>> Pakistani >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >> militarist >>>>>> elite. The challenge would be to come >>> up with proposals >> for >>>>> >>>> a >>>>>>> >>>>>> demilitarized, non-aggressive >>> Kashmir that can >> preserve its >>>> cultural >>>>> and >>>>>>> >>>>>> social openness >>> and >> liberality, that can take back >>>> displaced >>>>> minorities, >>>>>> >> and >>>>>>> >>> can offer them genuine, not token safety >>>> and security. >>>>> >> That is the >>> hard >>>>>> work >>>>>>> that imaginative politics will >>>> have >> to undertake >>>>> >>> in Kashmir. And we >>>>>> should >>>>>>> never stop >> expecting >>>> and demanding >>> that from >>>>> all our Kashmiri >>>>>> friends. >> I >>>>>>> never, ever >>>> cease >>> doing so. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>  In the >>>>> long >> term, this fact, >>>>>> an Independent >>>> >>> Kashmir, could actually be >> the >>>>>>> >>>>> cornerstone of a broad South >>>>>> >>> Asian >>>> Union >> (modelled on the EU) which >>>>> could >>>>>>> bring the >>> different >>>>>> >>>> >> nationalities (there may be many by then) of >>>>> South >>> Asia >>>>>>> under >> an >>>>>> >>>> arrangement of a free trade zone, a visa free >>> zone, >>>>> a >> customs and >>>>>>> >>>> tarrifs >>>>>> union, a charter on shared >>> ecological >> concerns, >>>>> and >>>> comprehensive >>>>>>> >>>>>> demilitarization. An >>> >> independent Kashmir may be the >>>>> >>>> first step in that >>>>>>> >>>>>> >> direction. >>> Of course this need not happen. >>>> Things >>>>> could get worse >> if >>>>>> >>> Kashmir >>>>>>> separates. I am well aware and >>>> cognizant >> of >>>>> that >>> possibility. But, >>>>>> at least, >>>>>>> once the dust and >>>> >> din settles, in >>> our >>>>> lifetime, there is a >>>>>> likelihood that >>>>>>> >> once >>>> everyone has >>> climbed off >>>>> their nationalist high >>>>>> horses, >> things might >>>> be >>>>>>> >>> worked out, amicably and >>>>> reasonably between >> all the >>>>>> stake >>>> holders >>> of a future >>>>>>> free association >>>>> of >> South Asian States and >>>>>> >>>> >>> Territories. That, I think is the >>>>>>> >> only >>>>> guarantee for peace in our >>>> >>> region. I >>>>>> know for certain >> that an India and >>>>>>> >>>>> Pakistan that >>>> >>> continue to hold on >> to >>>>>> their respective fragments of Jammu >>>>> >>> and >>>>>>> >>>> Kashmir, >> and an India that enforces >>>>>> that occupation by >>> military >>>>> force >>>> >> cannot >>>>>>> contribute to peace in the >>>>>> >>> region. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That >> is why, I >>>>> >>>> think that freedom for Kashmir, and >>> also, >>>>>> >> incidentally for >>>>>>> Tibet, >>>> is >>>>> key to long term peace and >>> >> stability in Asia, >>>>>> because both >>>> these >>>>>>> >>>>> developments >> would >>> reduce the necessity of the big >>>>>> poweres >>>> of tomorrow - >>>>> >> China >>>>>>> >>> and India and to a lesser extent - Pakistan >>>>>> >>>> from >> being aggressive >>>>> >>> nuclear >>>>>>> powered rivals, and would perhaps, >>>> >> perhaps, >>>>>> open out the >>> true >>>>> possibility of >>>>>>> what a >> worthwhile Asian >>>> Century really >>>>>> >>> ought to be like. >>>>> Otherwise, >> I am >>>>>>> afraid that we >>>> will replay the >>> disasters >>>>>> of the >>>>> >> European history of the >>>>>>> Twentieth >>>> Century, >>> from the First World >> War >>>>>> >>>>> onwards, on the soil of Twenty >>>>>>> >>>> >>> First Century >> Asia. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I hope i >>>>> have >>>>>> made myself >>>> >>> >> clear >>>>>>> >>>>>>> best, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> Shuddha >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On >>>>>> >> 23-Oct-10, at >>> 7:45 PM, >>>> SJabbar >>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sorry for >> cross-posting but I >>>>>> >>> sent this >>>> message out in the >>>>> morning as >> a >>>>>>>> response to Shuddha¹s >>> 2nd post >>>>>> >>>> but received an >> automated >>>>> email saying my >>>>>>>> post had >>> to be reviewed by >>>> >> the >>>>>> moderator.  Since I >>>>> haven¹t received >>> a >>>>>>>> response >> (Monica??!) I >>>> assume it >>>>>> was not approved >>>>> or got >>> lost in the >> vast >>>>>>>> belly of the >>>> Sarai computer! >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> ------------------------------------- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Shuddha, let >> us >>>> >>> take >>>>> your >>>>>> arguments and apply them to the other side. >>  Modi >>>>>>>> >>>> >>> belongs to a >>>>> political >>>>>> party that was in power >> and he was at the >>> helm >>>> when >>>>>>>> the 2002 >>>>> Gujarat >>>>>> carnage >> took place.  He may not >>> have >>>> explicitly directed it >>>>>>>> >>>>> but >> he >>>>>> certainly presided over >>> the >>>> violence.  What Modi is like as >> a >>>>> person, >>>>>>>> >>>>>> whether he is >>> gentle, >>>> cultured, cries at >> the funeral of his >>>>> friends or >>> his >>>>>>>> >>>>>> rivals are >>>> of no >> concern to me  (It is well known that >>>>> >>> Goebbels was a >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >> cultured man and had a refined taste in music >>> and the >>>>> arts and of >>>> >> course >>>>>>>> >>>>>> Jinnah ate ham sandwiches). What >>> matters to me is >>>>> >> that the >>>> man presided >>>>>> over >>>>>>>> the worst kind >>> of violence and >> has refused >>>>> to, >>>> till date, condemn >>>>>> it >>>>>>>> >>> unambiguously. >>  Instead he and his party >>>>> >>>> continue to cite the >>>>>> >>> >> economic >>>>>>>> progress of Muslims in Gujarat to >>>>> >>>> counter it. >>  The >>> subtext of >>>>>> this‹ and this >>>>>>>> is a South Asian >>>> >> disease‹ >>>>> is let >>> us forget the past, >>>>>> galtiyan dono taraf >> se >>>>>>>> huin >>>> hain >>>>> >>> (³action-reaction²), and let us move >> on. >>>>>>  Whether it is the >>>>>>>> >>>> >>> various >>>>> political parties in >> India who have incited, >>>>>> controlled >>> and >>>> presided >>>>>>>> >>>>> over >> the worst communal or sectarian violence >>> from >>>>>> the >>>> 1930¹s to >> the >>>>> present >>>>>>>> day, or the Pakistani army >>> role in the >> mass >>>>>> >>>> rapes of >>>>> Bangladesh or the Sri >>>>>>>> Lankan >>> army¹s >> role against Tamil >>>> civilians, >>>>>> >>>>> every political party in >>> >> these >>>>>>>> countries seem to be >>>> inflicted by the >>>>> same >>>>>> >>> >> disease. >>>>>>>> Having said that, I believe it is >>>> the role of >> civil >>>>> >>> society to be >>>>>> vigilant, >>>>>>>> to be rigorous, to not >>>> >> succumb to the >>> same >>>>> logic. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I know >>>>>> that you have >> been >>>> critical of >>> fundamentalist >>>>> politics in this forum >>>>>>>> >> and >>>>>> others, >>>> whether >>> it is Hindutva or Islamist >>>>> and that is >> why it surprised >>>>>>>> >>>> me >>>>>> >>> to read your post on the LTG >> event. >>>>>  You say ³You may be right when >>>> >>> you>>> >>>>>> say that SAS >> Geelani may be saying >>>>> one thing in Delhi and >>>> >>> another >> in >>>>>>>> >>>>>> Srinagar.  I am not here to judge >>>>> the sincerity, >>> >> or >>>> lack of,  or >>>>>> ambiguity, >>>>>>>> of these statements.²  Why >>>>> >> are >>> you not >>>> here to judge the >>>>>> sincerity or lack >>>>>>>> thereof >> of >>> these >>>>> statements? >>>>  Surely, one is always >>>>>> judging >> political >>>>>>>> >>> parties when they >>>>> claim >>>> one or another thing? >>  How does >>>>>> one align >>> oneself >>>>>>>> politically if >>>>> >>>> one goes >> simply by manifestos and not >>> by >>>>>> actions?  Judging >>>>>>>> >> and >>>>> >>>> evaluating is a constant process. >>>  Mamta Bannerjee >>>>>> may >> have been >>>> one >>>>>>>> >>>>> thing as a member of the >>> opposition but how >> will she be >>>>>> when >>>> she comes >>>>> to >>>>>>>> power? >>>  One reads her >> statements, one watches >>>> carefully >>>>>> her >>>>> >>> actions >>>>>>>> >> following her statements.  If they don¹t >>>> gel, we believe >>> her >>>>>> >>>>> >> to be >>>>>>>> insincere. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You write: ³I am >>>> amazed >>> that >> this recognition >>>>> is >>>>>> not getting the space I >>>>>>>> think it >>>> >>> >> deserves, simply as a NEWS story. >>>>> ³ Do >>>>>> you remember Atal >>> >> Behari >>>>>>>> >>>> Vajpayee shed tears after the demolition >>>>> of >> the >>>>>> >>> Babri Masjid and >>>> Advani >>>>>>>> described it as ³the saddest >> day of his >>>>> >>> life.² >>>>>> Should >>>> these isolated moments >>>>>>>> and >> statements be >>> highlighted and >>>>> >>>> privileged >>>>>> as representing the >> 2 men¹s >>>>>>>> >>> position on the Babri Masjid >>>> or >>>>> should one >>>>>> >> judge them over a >>> longer period >>>>>>>> of time, weighing >>>> their >>>>> >> statements and >>>>>> their >>> actions? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> As for Mr. Geelani >> and >>>> evaluating >>>>> his actions, >>> do you >>>>>> believe a >> responsible >>>>>>>> leader ought >>>> to lead from >>>>> the >>> front or give >> calls to >>>>>> his followers to engage >>>>>>>> >>>> in actions >>> that >>>>> >> will cause injury or even death >>>>>> from the safety of his >>>> >>> >> home? >>>>>>>> Mr. >>>>> Geelani is fully aware that in any part >>>>>> of >> this >>> planet >>>> if you pelt >>>>>>>> >>>>> stones at a man with a gun, there >> is a >>> fair >>>>>> chance >>>> that the man with the >>>>> gun >>>>>>>> is going >> to >>> retaliate.  When he was >>>>>> >>>> released from jail he made a >>>>> >> fine >>>>>>>> >>> statement calling for the end of >>>> the >>>>>> hartaal >> calendar, saying >>>>> that >>> this was >>>>>>>> not the way forward, >>>> that >> these >>>>>> protests could not >>> be >>>>> sustained, that life >>>>>>>> could >> not >>>> come to a standstill >>>>>> >>> (btw, the Sopore >>>>> fruit mandi, >> his >>>>>>>> >>>> constituency, continued to >>> function >>>>>> through this >>>>> >> entire period >>>> hartaal >>>>>>>> calendar or >>> not).  These were wise >>>>>> >> words from a >>>>> man who >>>> has been in >>> politics >>>>>>>> for years.  Wise >> words or the >>>>>> thinking of >>>>> >>>> the ISI, >>> I¹m not sure because >> the >>>>>>>> words were echoed by Syed >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> Salahuddin.  What >> follows is interesting: >>>>>>>> Salahuddin¹s effigy is >>>> >>> burnt >>>>> >> and >>>>>> a rumour is floated that Mr. Geelani is >>>>>>>> selling out >>> >> to >>>> Omar >>>>> Abdullah. >>>>>>  Does Mr. Geelani stand by his words? >>  Does >>> he >>>>>>>> do >>>> what >>>>> Gandhi does after >>>>>> Chauri Chaura? >>  No, of course >>> not.  He does >>>> a >>>>>>>> total >>>>> U-turn and >> starts >>>>>> competing with >>> Masrat Alam on the >>>> calendars, >>>>>>>> >>>>> >> subjecting the people of the >>>>>> >>> valley to more misery. >>>>  What do >> ordinary >>>>>>>> >>>>> Kashmiris feel about >>> the >>>>>> continuation of >> this >>>> absurd form of protest >>>>> where >>>>>>>> they >>> and not the >>>>>> >> Government of India >>>> suffer?  You may find the >>>>> answer >>> in >> the >>>>>>>> fact that >>>>>> there was not a >>>> single protest when >> Masrat >>>>> >>> Alam was arrested. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Again >>>>>> Mr. >>>> Geelani >> saying he >>> Œpersonally¹ >>>>> favours the accession to Pakistan >>>>>>>> >>>> >> but >>>>>> will >>> Œabide by¹ what the people >>>>> of J&K want is neither here >> nor >>>> >>> there. >>>>>>>> >>>>>> What you see as a maturing >>>>> position may >> be read as >>> an >>>> opportunistic one >>>>>>>> >>>>>> until such time as it >> is >>>>> tested.  As I >>> have >>>> already shown in my last post >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >> Mr. Geelani, his >>>>> >>> political party >>>> and his ideology have since the >> mid-90¹s >>>>>>>> >>>>>> shown >>> no such >>>>> respectful >>>> accommodation of >> the political views of others. >>>>>> >>>  In >>>>>>>> fact >>>>> any >>>> >> divergence from this view has been silenced by the >>> bullet. >>>>>> >>  If >>>>> >>>> this >>>>>>>> is someone¹s history‹ and as much as I >>> should >> wish it >>>> otherwise-- >>>>>> >>>>> it is >>>>>>>> very, very difficult for >>> >> me to suspend my >>>> cynicism and turn >>>>>> >>>>> enthusiastic >>>>>>>> >> cartwheels >>> on the basis of one >>>> speech to a select audience >>>>> >> in >>>>>> New >>> Delhi. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> With reference to >>>> your point about >> borders:  The >>>>> >>> GoI >>>>>> acknowledges that >>>>>>>> Kashmir is >>>> an >> ³issue² between India >>> and >>>>> Pakistan.  As I >>>>>> have mentioned in >> my >>>>>>>> >>>> first post, it >>> objects to the >>>>> word ³dispute² as >> it >>>>>> >>>> internationalizes >>>>>>>> >>> Kashmir, ignores the Simla >>>>> >> Agreement and takes it >>>> out of >>>>>> the >>> domain of >>>>>>>> bilateral >> talks back to >>>>> the UN.  If you want >>>> my >>> personal >>>>>> opinion on >> this >>>>>>>> (and I have argued on >>>>> this list in >>>> >>> the past), I agree >> with >>>>>> this stand.  I >>>>>>>> see the UN as a >>>>> >>> forum >>>> where, >> sadly, world powers have >>>>>> always manipulated >>>>>>>> >>> nations and >>>>> >> it >>>> certainly does not have the moral >>>>>> standing after >>> Iraq >> and >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>> Afghanistan to really mediate anywhere in the >>>>>> >>> >> world.  India and >>>>> >>>> Pakistan >>>>>>>> need to, and can settle the >> issue >>> taking into >>>>>> account >>>> the >>>>> wishes of all the >>>>>>>> >> people of J&K as >>> it stood in 1947.  As I >>>>>> >>>> have argued >>>>> in the >> past and as >>>>>>>> >>> Gen.Musharraf recently said on an >>>> NDTV >>>>>> >> interview >>>>> that India and >>> Pakistan >>>>>>>> were very close to >>>> >> drafting an agreement >>>>>> based >>>>> on >>> his 4-point formula. >>>>>>>> >>>> >> Interestingly, various interpretations of >>>>>> >>> this >>>>> 4-point formula >> were >>>> thrown >>>>>>>> up by all shades of political >>> parties >> but >>>>>> >>>>> there was a >>>> broad consensus on >>>>>>>> this whether >>> from >> the mainstream groups >>>>> or >>>>>> the >>>> separatists.  The only >>> >> leader >>>>>>>> that rejected this was Mr. >>>>> Geelani >>>> who >>>>>> insisted >> that >>> the Kashmir ³dispute² >>>>>>>> be solved on the UN >>>>> >>>> Resolutions >> of >>>>>> >>> 1948! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> As for borders themselves: what is >>>> >> Europe >>>>> today but >>> a borderless >>>>>> continent? >>>>>>>> You critique >> the idea of >>>> the >>>>> >>> nation-state and yet you want to >>>>>> re-invent >> the >>>>>>>> wheel by >>>> >>> supporting yet >>>>> another nation-state in >> independent >>>>>> Kashmir. >>>  Why, >>>>>>>> >>>> when a 21st c. >>>>> solution >> in the 4-point formula, similar >>> to >>>>>> the form >>>> and >>>>>>>> content >> of >>>>> the EU, could be in the >>> making? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best >>>>>> >>>> >> wishes, >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>> Sonia >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 22/10/10 8:10 >> PM, >>>> "Shuddhabrata >>> Sengupta" >>>>>> >>>>> >> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> Dear >>> Sonia, (don't worry Pawan, >> its >>>>> a >>>>>> lot less than '3000 >>>> >>> lines') >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I said - >> " I do not agree with >>>>> much of >>>>>> >>> what >>>> Geelani Saheb >> represents >>>>>>>>> politically, or ideologically, >>>>> >>> but I >>>> >> have >>>>>> no hesitation in saying that what >>>>>>>>> he >>>>>>>>> said >>> >> yesterday, >>>>> >>>> was surprising >>>>>> for its gentleness, for its >>> >> consideration, >>>>>>>>> >>>> for >>>>>>>>> >>>>> its moderation, even >>>>>> for >> its >>> liberality and open >>>> heartedness." >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>> What part >> of this >>> sentence >>>>>> seems to suggest >>>> that I am 'aligning' with >>>>> >> SAS >>>>>>>>> >>> Geelani. The 'I do not >>>>>> agree with >>>> much' does not >> seem to indicate >>>>> >>> alignment, >>>>>>>>> or endorsement to >>>>>> me. >>>> >> The rest of the statement is >>> a >>>>> statement of fact. Were >>>>>>>>> SAS >> Geelani >>>> to >>>>>> have said words >>> that were >>>>> inflammatory yesterday, >> I would not >>>>>>>>> >>>> have >>>>>> >>> hesitated to said that he >>>>> had. >> Allow me to elaborate by way of >>>> >>> an >>>>>>>>> >>>>>> example >>>>>>>>> - I >> have never >>>>> been in agreement with >>> the >>>> political philosophy >>>>>> >> of >>>>>>>>> M.K.Gandhi, >>>>>>>>> >>>>> but I >>> never make the >>>> mistake of >> saying that my >>>>>> disagreement with Gandhi >>>>> >>> (my >>>>>>>>> refusal >>>> >> to endorse Gandhian ideology and >>>>>> what it means >>>>> >>> politically) >>>> >> amounts >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> my failure to recognize >>>>>> >>> Gandhi's >>>>> >> gentleness, >>>> his consideration, his >>>>>>>>> moderation, his >>> >> liberality >>>>>> and its >>>>> open >>>> heartedness. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>  I have >> been >>> strongly critical Islamist >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> politics, including on >> this >>> forum, >>>>>>>>> whenever I have considered it >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> necessary >> to do so. >>> That is one thing, and it >>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>> where I >>>> >> would >>>>>> >>>>> differ >>> from SAS Geelani, explicitly, categorically, >> unless >>>> he >>>>>>>>> makes >>> a >>>>>> >>>>> statement, like the Mirwaiz did >> recently, abjuring an >>>> >>> 'Islamist >>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> future >>>>>>>>> for >> Kashmir'. But to say that SAS >>>> >>> Geelani has never expressed >>>>>> >>>>> >> regret for the >>>>>>>>> violence that >>> rocked >>>> even the pro-Azadi camp >> from >>>>> within >>>>>> is specious. >>>>>>>>> >>> Kashmiri >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> polticians of all hues routinely >>>>> issue >>>>>> >>> condemnations of >> incidents >>>> of >>>>>>>>> terrorism, and targetted >>>>> >>> >> assasinations. >>>>>> Geelani, to my >>>> knowledge, has not >>>>>>>>> >> been >>>>>>>>> >>> any >>>>> exception. Eyewitnesses >>>>>> speak >>>> of seeing >> him weeping at Abdul >>> Ghani >>>>>>>>> >>>>> Lone's >>>>>>>>> funeral. I do >>>> >> not >>>>>> know, nor do I >>> care, whether these tears >>>>> were genuine. >> All >>>>>>>>> >>>> I >>>>>>>>> am >>>>>> >>> saying is that if the man has not >> said >>>>> that he celebrates >>>> the assasins >>> of>>>> >>>>>> the elder >> Mirwaiz, or Abdul Ghani >>>>> Lone, or the >>>> attacks on >>> Dr. Shameema >>>>>> >> that >>>>>>>>> you mention, then, it is >>>>> unfair to >>>> >>> accuse him of >> 'Not Saying' the >>>>>> 'not >>>>>>>>> saying'. He condemns >>>>> >>>> >>> >> assasinations. He does not celebrate the >>>>>> assasin. This >>>>>>>>> means >>> >> that >>>> he >>>>> cannot be accused of being the source of the >>>>>> >>> >> assasination, >>>>>>>>> >>>> unless >>>>> other concrete evidence is brought to >> bear >>> upon the >>>>>> >>>> case. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>  You >>>>> may be right when >> you say that >>> SAS Geelani may be >>>> saying >>>>>> one thing in >>>>>>>>> >>>>> >> Delhi and another >>> in Srinagar.  I am not >>>> here to judge the >>>>>> >> sincerity, >>>>> or >>>>>>>>> >>> lack >>>>>>>>> of,  or ambiguity, >>>> of these >> statements. I think >>>>>> >>>>> >>> politically, the significant >>>>>>>>> >> thing >>>> is that whatever he may have >>> said >>>>> in >>>>>> the past, SAS >> Geelani, HAS >>>> to >>>>>>>>> speak >>>>>>>>> a >>> language today that is >>>>> >> not >>>>>> secterian. He may >>>> have done so in the >>> past. Let >>>>>>>>> us >> remember that >>>>> he was >>>>>> an elected >>>> member of the >>> J&K assembly >> for more than >>>>>>>>> one term >>>>> in the past, >>>>>> >>>> and that >>> means >> he had to swear fealty of some sort to >>>>>>>>> >>>>> the Indian >>>>>> >>>> >>> >> constitution. Judging by this, we should be able to evaluate >>>>> >>> >> his >>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> 'Islamist' commitments in the light of his sometime >>> >> loyalty to >>>>> an >>>>>> >>>> apparently >>>>>>>>> secular constitution. If the >> sake >>> of argument, we say >>>>> >>>> that we >>>>>> should take >>>>>>>>> >> seriously what >>> came 'after' as representing >>>> the >>>>> 'maturing' >> of >>>>>> his >>> position, >>>>>>>>> then, if his avowedly >>>> 'secterian' >> / >>>>> Islamist / >>> Pro-Pakistan >>>>>> phase came after >>>>>>>>> his >> phase >>>> as an MLA of the >>>>> >>> J&K assembly, then, so too >>>>>> has this >> 'current' >>>>>>>>> >>>> phase >>>>>>>>> >>> come >>>>> 'after' his secterian >> posturing. I am >>>>>> not the one who >>>> needs >>> to split >>>>>>>>> >>>>> >> these hairs, but clearly, if some emphasis >>>>>> is >>>> >>> bieng given to >> chronology as >>>>> a >>>>>>>>> way of attributing the man's >>>> >>> >> politics >>>>>> to the man's biography, then >>>>> let's >>>>>>>>> >> stay >>>>>>>>> >>>> >>> consistent, and say, that if >>>>>> the current SAS >> Geelani >>>>> is saying >>> things >>>> that >>>>>>>>> don't seem to require >> the >>>>>> automatic assumption >>>>> >>> of an Isamic >>>> state (which >> is >>>>>>>>> what we would expect >>>>>> from the >>> 'old' >>>>> Geelani, >>>> >> then, we have every reason to >>>>>>>>> take it as >>>>>> >>> seriously as >> when >>>>> he >>>> made his decision to abandon 'mainstream' >>>>>>>>> >>> >> electoral >>>>>> politics in >>>>> >>>> Jammu and Kashmir for the hardline >>> >> fringe. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Indeed, I >>>>>> would >>>> go >>>>> so far as to say >> that >>> as far as we are concerned, we >>>>>>>>> >>>> should >>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >> assume, and >>> hold him, and his followers, responsible to >>>> the >> Œevolution¹>> >>>>> >>> of >>>>>>>>> their statements, as they occur. If he >> goes >>>> back on the >>> broad, >>>>>> >>>>> liberal >>>>>>>>> nature >>>>>>>>> of >> a vision for Azad >>>> kashmir >>> (which, >>>>> incidentally, >>>>>> among other >> things, >>>>>>>>> included the >>>> >>> somewhat whimsical >>>>> detail of a >> provision >>>>>> of compensation >>> for >>>>>>>>> >>>> damages were a >> believing >>>>> Muslim to damage a bottle of >>>>>> >>> alchohl of >>>> a >>>>>>>>> >> non-believer), then, we >>>>> should hold him >>> responsible for that >>>>>> >>>> >> regression. He >>>>>>>>> made a speech >>>>> that was >>> refreshingly free >> of >>>> Islamist >>>>>> rhetoric yesterday, >>>>>>>>> >>> that >>>>>>>>> >>>>> spoke >> in the broad >>>> terms of 'Insaaniyat' - >>>>>> Humanity. >>> If Atal >> Behari >>>>> Vajpayee >>>>>>>>> can be >>>> appreciated, as indeed he >>> >> should >>>>>> have been, for >>>>> speaking in terms >>>> of >>>>>>>>> >> 'Insaaniyat' >>> when it came to thinking >>>>>> about the >>>>> solution to >>>> >> the question >>> of >>>>>>>>> Jammu and Kashmir, why could the >>>>>> >>>>> >> mainstream >>>> media not >>> pick up the fact that >>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>> least >> in stated >>>>> terms, >>>>>> >>>> >>> SAS Geelani was making as major a move, by >> invoking >>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>> 'Insaaniyat' >>>> over >>>>>> secterian >> considerations, exactly as Vajpayee >>> had >>>>> done. >>>>>>>>> >>>> Recognizing >> this >>>>>> does not require us to align >>> with, or endorse, >>>>> either >>>> >> SAS >>>>>>>>> Geelani, or >>>>>> Atal Behari >>> Vajpayee, it simply requires us >> to >>>>> >>>> register a fact >>>>>>>>> that a >>>>>> >>> major move is in process. >> That politics >>>> is >>>>> being transformed, even >>> as >>>>>>>>> we >>>>>> >> speak. I am amazed that this >>>>> >>>> recognition is being >>> painted as >> 'alignment, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>> or >>>>>>>>> endorsement'. >>>> I >>>>> am >>> amazed >> that this recognition is not getting the >>>>>> space I >>>>>>>>> >>>> think >>> >> it >>>>> deserves, simply as a NEWS story. SAS Geelani says he >>>>>> >> wishes >>>> >>> India >>>>>>>>> >>>>> to >>>>>>>>> be a strong country, a regional >> power, that >>> he >>>>>> >>>> supports (in >>>>> principle) a >>>>>>>>> future >> permanent place for >>> India on the >>>> United >>>>>> Natons >>>>> Security >> Council, once >>>>>>>>> Kashmir >>> is liberated   - in >>>> other words, >> he >>>>>> is >>>>> saying, let us go, and >>> we >>>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>>> stand >>>> >> with you, dont you think >>>>>> >>>>> this is BIG >>> news. That is what I >> was >>>> trying >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> talk about. Trying >>>>> >>> to >>>>>> talk >> about does not make >>>> me a camp follower of SAS >>>>>>>>> Geelani >>> or >> any >>>>> other >>>>>> politician, in >>>> India, Kashmir, or >>> >> elsewhere. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> My sense is, >>>>> the >>>>>> movement >>>> for >> Azadi in >>> Kashmir has gone beyond the persona >>>>>>>>> >>>>> of >>>>>>>>> >> SAS >>>>>> >>>> >>> Geelani, and while he is universally respected for his >>>>> >> integrity >>>> >>> and >>>>>>>>> >>>>>> incorruptability, his word is by no means, >> Œlaw¹. He, >>>>> >>> and >>>> other leaders >>>>>> like >>>>>>>>> him, are being >> Œled¹ as much as they >>> are >>>>> >>>> Œleading¹ the people they >>>>>> claim >> to >>>>>>>>> represent. Part of >>> this >>>> process >>>>> means giving up the >> secterian >>>>>> rhetoric that >>>>>>>>> >>> people in >>>> Kashmir >>>>> genuinely >> feel alienated by. We should >>>>>> welcome >>> this >>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >> development. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Now, I come to the views that >>> he >>>>>> >> holds >>>> regarding >>>>> independence and merger >>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>> >>> >> Pakistan. He has >>>> said, >>>>>> including >>>>> in his recent interview >> with >>> Seema Mustafa >>>>>>>>> that >>>> he PERSONALLY >>>>>> prefers >>>>> >> accession to >>> Pakistan, but that he is willing >>>> to >>>>>>>>> abide >> by >>>>>> whatever >>>>> the >>> people of Jammu and Kashmir decide. I >>>> do not >> think >>>>>>>>> >>> that >>>>>>>>> >>>>>> the >>>>> people of Jammu and Kashmir >> have a >>>> future with >>> Pakistan.So, I >>>>>> >>>>> disagree >>>>>>>>> with SAS >> Geelani's personal >>>> view. >>> I strongly argue for a >>>>>> >>>>> >> demilitarized, >>>>>>>>> independent, secular >>>> >>> Jammu and Kashmir. That >> makes me >>>>>> >>>>> someone who does not >>>>>>>>> >>> endorse >>>> SAS Geelani's >> position. Let's look at >>>>> thigns >>>>>> this way, had >>> this >>>> >> been >>>>>>>>> 1935, I would probably have not been >>>>> in >>> agreement >>>>>> >> with M.K. >>>> Gandhi's vision >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> what he thought >>> the >>>>> >> future of South >>>>>> >>>> Asia and India ought to be. But that >>>>>>>>> >>> >> does >>>>>>>>> not >>>>> mean that I >>>> would >>>>>> dismiss Gandhi as >> irrelevant, >>> or someone to be >>>>> mocked >>>>>>>>> and >>>> reviled. I >>>>>> >> would engage with >>> him politicially, as many >>>>> currents in >>>> >> India >>>>>>>>> at that >>>>>> time >>> did. They were not uncritical of >>>>> >> Gandhi (from >>>> the left and >>> the >>>>>>>>> >>>>>> right) but they knew that >> Gandhi's >>>>> voice had a >>>> certain >>> resonance. I think>>>> >>>>>> >> that >>>>>>>>> the attitude that >>>>> people >>>> have >>> towards SAS Geelani is >> not dissimilar. >>>>>> They >>>>>>>>> may >>>>>>>>> >>> not >>>>> >>>> agree with >> him on many counts, and most Kashmiris that >>>>>> I >>> know >>>>> >>>> >> personally >>>>>>>>> would fit that description. But none would want >>> >> to >>>>>> >>>> dismiss >>>>> or demonize him. >>>>>>>>> Primarily because of >> his >>> unwillingness to >>>> be an >>>>>> >>>>> occasional pawn in the >> hands >>>>>>>>> of >>> the >>>> occupation. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>  I have yet >>>>> >> to >>>>>> come across an >>> Indian >>>> politician who is willing to say, >> on >>>>>>>>> >>>>> the >>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> record, that he >>>> PERSONALLY prefers >> that Jammu and Kashmir stay >>>>> >>> with >>>>>> India, >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> but >>>>>>>>> will respect whatever the people of >>> Jammu and >>>>> >> Kashmir >>>>>> decide >>>> in a free and >>>>>>>>> fair plebiscite. If >>> that >> were to be the >>>>> case, then >>>>>> >>>> we would get much further >>>>>>>>> >>> >> than where we are today in >>>>> Kashmir. I have >>>> no >>>>>> quarrel with >> those >>> who want >>>>>>>>> Kashmir to stay in >>>>> India. Theirs >>>> is a >> point >>>>>> of >>> view. It needs to be freely >>>>>>>>> heard, freely >>>>> >> debated, >>>> and if >>> is >>>>>> convincing to the people of Jammu and >>>>>>>>> >> Kashmir, >>>>> best of >>>> >>> luck to those who >>>>>> carry the day. What I am >> against is >>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> maintaining Jammu and Kashmir as >>>>>> parts >> of the Indian Union by >>> force. >>>>> >>>> By >>>>>>>>> violence. By >> occupation. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> Finally, I come to the >>>> five >>>>> >> points, and whether or not, sticking to >>> the >>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >> point >>>>>>>>> >>>> about Kashmir >>>>> being disputed is an >>> obstacle. Lets >> face facts. >>>>>> Kashmir >>>> is a >>>>>>>>> dispute. >>>>> Every >>> single map >> of the world that is not printed >>>>>> >>>> in India shows >>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>> >> it, >>>>>>>>> visually, as a disputed territory. That is >>>> why >>>>>> the >>> >> Government of >>>>> India has >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> put its silly ink >>>> stamp >> on >>> atlases. >>>>>> That is why >>>>> there is a United Nations >>>>>>>>> >> Observer >>>> >>> group in Delhi, Islamabad >>>>>> and >>>>> Srinagar. United >> Nations >>> observers >>>>>>>>> >>>> are >>>>>>>>> present, in the same >>>>> >> way, >>>>>> in say >>> Cyprus (another dispute) >>>> Israel / >>>>>>>>> >> Palestine, >>>>>>>>> >>>>> another >>> dispute. >>>>>> What is the big deal >>>> in >> saying, yes, it is a dispute. >>>>> >>> Will >>>>>>>>> India >>>>>> disappear if >> the >>>> public secret is admitted to? As >>> far as I >>>>> am >>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >> concerned >>>>>>>>> >>>> borders, and sovereignty, >>> are less important >> than >>>>> the lives of >>>>>> people. >>>> If >>>>>>>>> discussing >>> a border, >> and what it means, can >>>>> be a method to >>>>>> >>>> save lives, >>> >> then >>>>>>>>> refusing to do so, is a crime. The >>>>> Government of >>>> >>> >> India >>>>>> can offer to >>>>>>>>> 'discuss' >>>>>>>>> - sovereignty >> over >>>>> >>> those >>>> areas of the >>>>>> India-Tibet border that were taken >> by >>>>>>>>> >>> force >>>>> majeure >>>> by British Imperial >>>>>> power, but it >> will sacrifice the >>> lives of >>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>> hundreds of thousands of >> people >>>>>> in order to keep >>> the fetish of the >>>>> >>>> Indian >>>>>>>>> >> Union's  soveriegnty and >>>>>> >>> integrity alive in the case of >>>> >> Jammu >>>>> and Kashmir. >>>>>>>>> This policy >>> seems to me >>>>>> to be >> totally >>>> criminal and >>>>> misguided. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>> Borders are made >> by human >>>>>> beings, >>>> and can be changed >>>>> by human >>> beings. >> The >>>>>>>>> geographical expression >>>>>> >>>> of the Union of India >>> >> is >>>>> not divinely ordained. >>>>>>>>> Sensible people all >>>> over >>>>>> >> the >>> world, understand >>>>> that maps can change, and >>>>>>>>> >> that >>>>>>>>> >>>> they >>> do change. >>>>>> We hope that the >>>>> map of China >> can someday be drawn >>>> >>> in >>>>>>>>> Chinese >>>>>>>>> school >>>>>> text >> books >>>>> without engulfing Tibet. >>> If >>>> that can be a >> reasonable >>>>>>>>> >>>>>> desire, >>>>>>>>> >>>>> and not be >>> seen as an >>>> >> 'obstruction', why should a similar desire >>>>>> be seen >>>>> >>> as >>>>>>>>> >> an >>>>>>>>> >>>> obstruction in the case of India and Jammu and >>>>>> >>> >> Kashmir. >>>>> Arnab >>>> Goswami >>>>>>>>> repeatedly used the word >> 'splittist' >>> yestyerday to >>>>>> >>>>> refer >>>> to all those who >>>>>>>>> >> were >>>>>>>>> speaking >>> at the meeting at the LTG >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> yesterday. >> A word that is used by >>> the >>>>>>>>> Chinese government and the >>>>> >>>> >> Chinese >>>>>> Communist Party >>> whenever it refers to the >>>>>>>>> Dalai Lama >> and >>>> the >>>>> movement for >>>>>> >>> a free Tibet. Are we (our >> government, >>>>>>>>> >>>> sections >>>>>>>>> of >>>>> our >>> media) aping >>>>>> >> the Chinese government and the >>>> behemoth of the >>>>> >>> Chinese >>>>>>>>> >> Communist Party in >>>>>> aligning and >>>> endorsing ourselves >>> with the >>>>> >> fetish of a man >>>>>>>>> made fiction of >>>>>> >>>> sovereignty. I >>> should >> hope that we >>>>> can do better than that. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> best >>>>>> >>> >> regards, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> Shuddha >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>> >>>>> >>> >>>> _________________________________________ >>>>>>>> >> reader-list: an >>> open >>>>> >>>> discussion >>>>>> list on media and the >> city. >>>>>>>> Critiques & >>>> >>> Collaborations >>>>>>>> >>>>> To >> subscribe: >>>>>> send an email to >>>> >>> reader-list-request at sarai.net >> with >>>>> subscribe >>>>>>>> in the >>>>>> subject >>>> >>> header. >>>>>>>> To >> unsubscribe: >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>>>>> List >>> >> archive: >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>> >>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >>>>>>>> The Sarai Programme at >> CSDS >>>>>>>> >>> Raqs >>>> Media >>>>>> >>>>> Collective >>>>>>>> >> shuddha at sarai.net >>>>>>>> >>>> >>> www.sarai.net >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> www.raqsmediacollective.net >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > >> >>>> >>>> >>> _________________________________________ >>>>>> reader-list: an >> open >>>>> >>>> >>> discussion >>>>>> list on media and the city. >>>>>> Critiques >> & >>> Collaborations >>>>>> >>>> To >>>>> subscribe: send >>>>>> an email to >>> >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> subscribe in >>>>> the subject >>>>>> >>> >> header. >>>>>> To unsubscribe: >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>>> List >>> >> archive: >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> ___________________________ >>>>>> ______________ >>>>> reader-list: an >>> >> open >>>>> >>>> discussion list on media and the >>>>>> city. >>>>> Critiques & >>> >> Collaborations >>>>> >>>> To >>>>> subscribe: send an email to >>>>>> >>> >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> subscribe in >>>>> the subject >> header. >>>>> >>> To >>>>>> unsubscribe: >>>>> >>>> >>> >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>> List >>> >> archive: >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> _____________________ >>>>> ____________________ >>>> reader-list: an >> open >>>> >>> discussion list on media and the >>>>> city. >>>> Critiques & >> Collaborations >>>> >>> To >>>> subscribe: send an email to >>>>> >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in >>>> the subject header. >>>> >> To >>>>> unsubscribe: >>>> >>> >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List >> archive: >>>>> >>>> >>> >> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> _____________________ >>>> ____________________ >>> reader-list: an open >>> >> discussion list on media and the >>>> city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> >> To >>> subscribe: send an email to >>>> reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in >>> the subject header. >>> To >>>> unsubscribe: >>> >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: >>>> >>> >> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >>> >>> >> >> _____________________ >>> ____________________ >> reader-list: an open >> discussion list on media and the >>> city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To >> subscribe: send an email to >>> reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in >> the subject header. >> To >>> unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: >>> >> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> > _____________________ >> ____________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the >> city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To >> unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: >> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From indersalim at gmail.com Wed Oct 27 17:47:01 2010 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 17:47:01 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Statement by Arundhati Roy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I guess people in India will read her only after she gets Nobel for literature. which she deserves love is On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 3:14 PM, Rajkamal Goswami wrote: > Dear Aditya > > I am sure yo know about her fictional work 1 novel & 1 screenplay. But > I am not sure if you have read her non-fictional work. Well she didn't > win booker for them but she won the "Sydney Peace Prize" and the > "Sahitya Akademi award" which she politely refused. Her body of non > fiction work is far greater (both in volume and quality) than her > fictional work. I hope you have read her work. If not please read > atleast the essential Roy viz "The greater common good", the "Algebra > of Infinite justice", "Come September", Do Turkeys Enjoy > Thanksgiving", "Peace is War", "Listening To Grasshoppers", "Shall We > Leave It to the Experts?" and my favorite  “The Ladies have feelings > so…”  You should definitely read the last one because it answers your > query about the very questions that you have raised. > > Regarding a fiction writer being political, well all writers are > political. That some chose to remain silent is also a political > activity. That Ms. Roy choses to write her politics and throw it open > to ideas and criticism is the best thing I really like about her. > Besides she is also indulged in field activism, giving her voice to > the voiceless and rooting for real democracy. > > Thanks > r > > On 10/27/10, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: >> Are you the moderator? Just curious again. You indeed have a big hand. >> >> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 2:31 PM, Tapas Ray [Gmail] >> wrote: >> >>> ps: I mean, to Aditya. >>> >>> On 27 October 2010 14:30, Tapas Ray [Gmail] wrote: >>> > Really intelligent comment. Let's give him a big hand! >>> > >>> > On 27 October 2010 14:23, Aditya Raj Kaul >>> wrote: >>> >> Isn't she a Fiction writer? Or is she really a writer? Just curious. >>> >> >>> >> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 2:01 PM, Rajkamal Goswami < >>> rajkamalgoswami at gmail.com >>> >>> wrote: >>> >> >>> >>> I am just in awe of this woman. >>> >>> >>> >>> On 10/27/10, Tapas Ray [Gmail] wrote: >>> >>> > Pheeta, >>> >>> > >>> >>> > No problem, and no need to apologise! >>> >>> > >>> >>> > Best, >>> >>> > >>> >>> > Tapas >>> >>> > >>> >>> > On 27 October 2010 09:07, Pheeta Ram wrote: >>> >>> >> Dear Tapas >>> >>> >> Actually the statement was sent to me by somebody. I forgot to >>> >>> >> check >>> if >>> >>> it >>> >>> >> had already been published online; that's why there was no link. >>> Thanks >>> >>> >> for >>> >>> >> reminding me the etiquettes of responsible online publishing. >>> >>> >> I shall take care next time. >>> >>> >> Pheeta Ram >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 6:42 AM, Tapas Ray [Gmail] < >>> tapasrayx at gmail.com >>> >>> > >>> >>> >> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Pheeta, >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks for this. I think it would be good if we gave the links >>> along >>> >>> >>> with any material from online sources that we might be posting. >>> This >>> >>> >>> one's is >>> >>> >>> < >>> >>> >>> http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/arundhati-roys-statement-on-possible-sedition-case-62566 >>> >>> >. >>> >>> >>> As for offline sources (e.g., printed books, etc.), a mention of >>> the >>> >>> >>> source, as complete as possible, would be very helpful. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks again. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Tapas >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 27 October 2010 02:10, Pheeta Ram wrote: >>> >>> >>> > STATEMENT BY ARUNDHATI ROY >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > I write this from Srinagar, Kashmir. This morning’s papers say >>> that I >>> >>> >>> > may be arrested on charges of sedition for what I have said at >>> recent >>> >>> >>> > public meetings on Kashmir. I said what millions of people here >>> say >>> >>> >>> > every day. I said what I, as well as other commentators have >>> written >>> >>> >>> > and said for years. Anybody who cares to read the transcripts of >>> my >>> >>> >>> > speeches will see that they were fundamentally a call for >>> justice. I >>> >>> >>> > spoke about justice for the people of Kashmir who live under one >>> of >>> >>> >>> > the most brutal military occupations in the world; for Kashmiri >>> >>> >>> > Pandits who live out the tragedy of having been driven out of >>> their >>> >>> >>> > homeland; for Dalit soldiers killed in Kashmir whose graves I >>> visited >>> >>> >>> > on garbage heaps in their villages in Cuddalore; for the Indian >>> poor >>> >>> >>> > who pay the price of this occupation in material ways and who >>> >>> >>> > are >>> now >>> >>> >>> > learning to live in the terror of what is becoming a police >>> state. >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > Yesterday I traveled to Shopian, the apple-town in South Kashmir >>> >>> which >>> >>> >>> > had remained closed for 47 days last year in protest against the >>> >>> >>> > brutal rape and murder of Asiya and Nilofer, the young women >>> whose >>> >>> >>> > bodies were found in a shallow stream near their homes and whose >>> >>> >>> > murderers have still not been brought to justice. I met Shakeel, >>> who >>> >>> >>> > is Nilofer’s husband and Asiya’s brother.  We sat in a circle of >>> >>> >>> > people crazed with grief and anger who had lost hope that they >>> would >>> >>> >>> > ever get ‘insaf’—justice—from India, and now believed that >>> >>> >>> > Azadi—freedom— was their only hope. I met young stone pelters >>> >>> >>> > who >>> had >>> >>> >>> > been shot through their eyes. I traveled with a young man who >>> told me >>> >>> >>> > how three of his friends, teenagers in Anantnag district, had >>> been >>> >>> >>> > taken into custody and had their finger-nails pulled out as >>> >>> punishment >>> >>> >>> > for throwing stones. >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > In the papers some have accused me of giving ‘hate-speeches’, of >>> >>> >>> > wanting India to break up. On the contrary, what I say comes >>> >>> >>> > from >>> >>> love >>> >>> >>> > and pride. It comes from not wanting people to be killed, raped, >>> >>> >>> > imprisoned or have their finger-nails pulled out in order to >>> force >>> >>> >>> > them to say they are Indians. It comes from wanting to live in a >>> >>> >>> > society that is striving to be a just one. Pity the nation that >>> has >>> >>> to >>> >>> >>> > silence its writers for speaking their minds. Pity the nation >>> that >>> >>> >>> > needs to jail those who ask for justice, while communal killers, >>> mass >>> >>> >>> > murderers, corporate scamsters, looters, rapists, and those who >>> prey >>> >>> >>> > on the poorest of the poor, roam free. >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > Arundhati Roy >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > October 26 2010 >>> >>> >>> > _________________________________________ >>> >>> >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> >>> >>> > Critiques & Collaborations >>> >>> >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith >>> >>> >>> > subscribe in the subject header. >>> >>> >>> > To unsubscribe: >>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> >>> >>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >>> >>> _________________________________________ >>> >>> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> >>> >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> >>> >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> >>> >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> >>> >>> To unsubscribe: >>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> >>> >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> > _________________________________________ >>> >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> >>> > Critiques & Collaborations >>> >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> >>> subscribe >>> >>> > in the subject header. >>> >>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> >>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Rajkamal >>> >>> _________________________________________ >>> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >>> >>> >> _________________________________________ >>> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> >> Critiques & Collaborations >>> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> > >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe >> in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > -- > Rajkamal > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From samvitr at gmail.com Wed Oct 27 18:34:18 2010 From: samvitr at gmail.com (Samvit) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 18:34:18 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Statement by Arundhati Roy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think that she is an intellectual leftover. It is very surprising that I find people of Sarai are raving about a woman who is pardaoxically opposite to the leftist ideology. While the stories of her promiscuity are legendary I would not talk about them as it would be interfering in her personal life. However some years back I saw her in the skimpiest clothing going to the most capitalistic gym anyone can think of. Those who rave about her writing need to read more writers and they would realize what talent Arundati has got. Also, it is "en vogue" to write against India. The great India rope trick sells like hot cake. Write a book that says elephants run on Indian roads and it sells like hot cake in the "developed world". It is the intellectual leftovers like her and Gautam Navlakha who call India "a corporate Hindu state". It is pretty sad that people on this forum are "in awe of her". -Samvit On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 5:47 PM, Inder Salim wrote: > I guess people in India will read her only after she gets Nobel for literature. > which she deserves > > > love > is > > > On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 3:14 PM, Rajkamal Goswami > wrote: >> Dear Aditya >> >> I am sure yo know about her fictional work 1 novel & 1 screenplay. But >> I am not sure if you have read her non-fictional work. Well she didn't >> win booker for them but she won the "Sydney Peace Prize" and the >> "Sahitya Akademi award" which she politely refused. Her body of non >> fiction work is far greater (both in volume and quality) than her >> fictional work. I hope you have read her work. If not please read >> atleast the essential Roy viz "The greater common good", the "Algebra >> of Infinite justice", "Come September", Do Turkeys Enjoy >> Thanksgiving", "Peace is War", "Listening To Grasshoppers", "Shall We >> Leave It to the Experts?" and my favorite  “The Ladies have feelings >> so…”  You should definitely read the last one because it answers your >> query about the very questions that you have raised. >> >> Regarding a fiction writer being political, well all writers are >> political. That some chose to remain silent is also a political >> activity. That Ms. Roy choses to write her politics and throw it open >> to ideas and criticism is the best thing I really like about her. >> Besides she is also indulged in field activism, giving her voice to >> the voiceless and rooting for real democracy. >> >> Thanks >> r >> >> On 10/27/10, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: >>> Are you the moderator? Just curious again. You indeed have a big hand. >>> >>> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 2:31 PM, Tapas Ray [Gmail] >>> wrote: >>> >>>> ps: I mean, to Aditya. >>>> >>>> On 27 October 2010 14:30, Tapas Ray [Gmail] wrote: >>>> > Really intelligent comment. Let's give him a big hand! >>>> > >>>> > On 27 October 2010 14:23, Aditya Raj Kaul >>>> wrote: >>>> >> Isn't she a Fiction writer? Or is she really a writer? Just curious. >>>> >> >>>> >> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 2:01 PM, Rajkamal Goswami < >>>> rajkamalgoswami at gmail.com >>>> >>> wrote: >>>> >> >>>> >>> I am just in awe of this woman. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> On 10/27/10, Tapas Ray [Gmail] wrote: >>>> >>> > Pheeta, >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> > No problem, and no need to apologise! >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> > Best, >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> > Tapas >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> > On 27 October 2010 09:07, Pheeta Ram wrote: >>>> >>> >> Dear Tapas >>>> >>> >> Actually the statement was sent to me by somebody. I forgot to >>>> >>> >> check >>>> if >>>> >>> it >>>> >>> >> had already been published online; that's why there was no link. >>>> Thanks >>>> >>> >> for >>>> >>> >> reminding me the etiquettes of responsible online publishing. >>>> >>> >> I shall take care next time. >>>> >>> >> Pheeta Ram >>>> >>> >> >>>> >>> >> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 6:42 AM, Tapas Ray [Gmail] < >>>> tapasrayx at gmail.com >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> >> wrote: >>>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> Pheeta, >>>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> Thanks for this. I think it would be good if we gave the links >>>> along >>>> >>> >>> with any material from online sources that we might be posting. >>>> This >>>> >>> >>> one's is >>>> >>> >>> < >>>> >>> >>>> http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/arundhati-roys-statement-on-possible-sedition-case-62566 >>>> >>> >. >>>> >>> >>> As for offline sources (e.g., printed books, etc.), a mention of >>>> the >>>> >>> >>> source, as complete as possible, would be very helpful. >>>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> Thanks again. >>>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> Tapas >>>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> On 27 October 2010 02:10, Pheeta Ram wrote: >>>> >>> >>> > STATEMENT BY ARUNDHATI ROY >>>> >>> >>> > >>>> >>> >>> > I write this from Srinagar, Kashmir. This morning’s papers say >>>> that I >>>> >>> >>> > may be arrested on charges of sedition for what I have said at >>>> recent >>>> >>> >>> > public meetings on Kashmir. I said what millions of people here >>>> say >>>> >>> >>> > every day. I said what I, as well as other commentators have >>>> written >>>> >>> >>> > and said for years. Anybody who cares to read the transcripts of >>>> my >>>> >>> >>> > speeches will see that they were fundamentally a call for >>>> justice. I >>>> >>> >>> > spoke about justice for the people of Kashmir who live under one >>>> of >>>> >>> >>> > the most brutal military occupations in the world; for Kashmiri >>>> >>> >>> > Pandits who live out the tragedy of having been driven out of >>>> their >>>> >>> >>> > homeland; for Dalit soldiers killed in Kashmir whose graves I >>>> visited >>>> >>> >>> > on garbage heaps in their villages in Cuddalore; for the Indian >>>> poor >>>> >>> >>> > who pay the price of this occupation in material ways and who >>>> >>> >>> > are >>>> now >>>> >>> >>> > learning to live in the terror of what is becoming a police >>>> state. >>>> >>> >>> > >>>> >>> >>> > Yesterday I traveled to Shopian, the apple-town in South Kashmir >>>> >>> which >>>> >>> >>> > had remained closed for 47 days last year in protest against the >>>> >>> >>> > brutal rape and murder of Asiya and Nilofer, the young women >>>> whose >>>> >>> >>> > bodies were found in a shallow stream near their homes and whose >>>> >>> >>> > murderers have still not been brought to justice. I met Shakeel, >>>> who >>>> >>> >>> > is Nilofer’s husband and Asiya’s brother.  We sat in a circle of >>>> >>> >>> > people crazed with grief and anger who had lost hope that they >>>> would >>>> >>> >>> > ever get ‘insaf’—justice—from India, and now believed that >>>> >>> >>> > Azadi—freedom— was their only hope. I met young stone pelters >>>> >>> >>> > who >>>> had >>>> >>> >>> > been shot through their eyes. I traveled with a young man who >>>> told me >>>> >>> >>> > how three of his friends, teenagers in Anantnag district, had >>>> been >>>> >>> >>> > taken into custody and had their finger-nails pulled out as >>>> >>> punishment >>>> >>> >>> > for throwing stones. >>>> >>> >>> > >>>> >>> >>> > In the papers some have accused me of giving ‘hate-speeches’, of >>>> >>> >>> > wanting India to break up. On the contrary, what I say comes >>>> >>> >>> > from >>>> >>> love >>>> >>> >>> > and pride. It comes from not wanting people to be killed, raped, >>>> >>> >>> > imprisoned or have their finger-nails pulled out in order to >>>> force >>>> >>> >>> > them to say they are Indians. It comes from wanting to live in a >>>> >>> >>> > society that is striving to be a just one. Pity the nation that >>>> has >>>> >>> to >>>> >>> >>> > silence its writers for speaking their minds. Pity the nation >>>> that >>>> >>> >>> > needs to jail those who ask for justice, while communal killers, >>>> mass >>>> >>> >>> > murderers, corporate scamsters, looters, rapists, and those who >>>> prey >>>> >>> >>> > on the poorest of the poor, roam free. >>>> >>> >>> > >>>> >>> >>> > Arundhati Roy >>>> >>> >>> > >>>> >>> >>> > October 26 2010 >>>> >>> >>> > _________________________________________ >>>> >>> >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> >>> >>> > Critiques & Collaborations >>>> >>> >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith >>>> >>> >>> > subscribe in the subject header. >>>> >>> >>> > To unsubscribe: >>>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> >>> >>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> >>> >>> _________________________________________ >>>> >>> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> >>> >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> >>> >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> >>> >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>> >>> >>> To unsubscribe: >>>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> >>> >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> >>> >> >>>> >>> > _________________________________________ >>>> >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> >>> > Critiques & Collaborations >>>> >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> >>> subscribe >>>> >>> > in the subject header. >>>> >>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> >>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> -- >>>> >>> Rajkamal >>>> >>> _________________________________________ >>>> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>> >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> >>> >>>> >> _________________________________________ >>>> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> >> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> > >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe >>> in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> -- >> Rajkamal >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Samvit Rawal 9422037853 ----------------------------------------------------------- To err is human; to forgive, infrequent.   - Franklin P. Adams From anu.mukh at gmail.com Wed Oct 27 18:35:39 2010 From: anu.mukh at gmail.com (anuradha mukherjee) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 18:35:39 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Statement by Arundhati Roy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Inder, I think she makes for a soft target because she is a woman, she is pretty, speaks her mind in a non-violent manner (without the help of gun or crotch grabbing bodyguards). I may disagree with her approach on may issues, may be not in essense but the way she articulates herself, but the woman is courageous. It takes courage to defy the majority view like this. And she gets attention, so those who berate her also share the limelight. But I also disagree with the people who say "nothing happened, Jagmohan created a bogey, Pandit left on their own", "Muslims wants them back" etc. The last statement may or may not be true, but no community gives up its hearths and homes and livelihoods overnight and chooses to live as refugees. But the tragedy of Kashmir is that its daily suffering forces it to discount the sufferings of its Hindu brothers. If you say Azadi, please do not say that Pandits had it easy either (may be those with resources did). On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 5:47 PM, Inder Salim wrote: > I guess people in India will read her only after she gets Nobel for > literature. > which she deserves > > > love > is > > > On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 3:14 PM, Rajkamal Goswami > wrote: > > Dear Aditya > > > > I am sure yo know about her fictional work 1 novel & 1 screenplay. But > > I am not sure if you have read her non-fictional work. Well she didn't > > win booker for them but she won the "Sydney Peace Prize" and the > > "Sahitya Akademi award" which she politely refused. Her body of non > > fiction work is far greater (both in volume and quality) than her > > fictional work. I hope you have read her work. If not please read > > atleast the essential Roy viz "The greater common good", the "Algebra > > of Infinite justice", "Come September", Do Turkeys Enjoy > > Thanksgiving", "Peace is War", "Listening To Grasshoppers", "Shall We > > Leave It to the Experts?" and my favorite “The Ladies have feelings > > so…” You should definitely read the last one because it answers your > > query about the very questions that you have raised. > > > > Regarding a fiction writer being political, well all writers are > > political. That some chose to remain silent is also a political > > activity. That Ms. Roy choses to write her politics and throw it open > > to ideas and criticism is the best thing I really like about her. > > Besides she is also indulged in field activism, giving her voice to > > the voiceless and rooting for real democracy. > > > > Thanks > > r > > > > On 10/27/10, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > >> Are you the moderator? Just curious again. You indeed have a big hand. > >> > >> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 2:31 PM, Tapas Ray [Gmail] > >> wrote: > >> > >>> ps: I mean, to Aditya. > >>> > >>> On 27 October 2010 14:30, Tapas Ray [Gmail] > wrote: > >>> > Really intelligent comment. Let's give him a big hand! > >>> > > >>> > On 27 October 2010 14:23, Aditya Raj Kaul > >>> wrote: > >>> >> Isn't she a Fiction writer? Or is she really a writer? Just curious. > >>> >> > >>> >> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 2:01 PM, Rajkamal Goswami < > >>> rajkamalgoswami at gmail.com > >>> >>> wrote: > >>> >> > >>> >>> I am just in awe of this woman. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> On 10/27/10, Tapas Ray [Gmail] wrote: > >>> >>> > Pheeta, > >>> >>> > > >>> >>> > No problem, and no need to apologise! > >>> >>> > > >>> >>> > Best, > >>> >>> > > >>> >>> > Tapas > >>> >>> > > >>> >>> > On 27 October 2010 09:07, Pheeta Ram > wrote: > >>> >>> >> Dear Tapas > >>> >>> >> Actually the statement was sent to me by somebody. I forgot to > >>> >>> >> check > >>> if > >>> >>> it > >>> >>> >> had already been published online; that's why there was no link. > >>> Thanks > >>> >>> >> for > >>> >>> >> reminding me the etiquettes of responsible online publishing. > >>> >>> >> I shall take care next time. > >>> >>> >> Pheeta Ram > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 6:42 AM, Tapas Ray [Gmail] < > >>> tapasrayx at gmail.com > >>> >>> > > >>> >>> >> wrote: > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> Pheeta, > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> Thanks for this. I think it would be good if we gave the links > >>> along > >>> >>> >>> with any material from online sources that we might be posting. > >>> This > >>> >>> >>> one's is > >>> >>> >>> < > >>> >>> > >>> > http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/arundhati-roys-statement-on-possible-sedition-case-62566 > >>> >>> >. > >>> >>> >>> As for offline sources (e.g., printed books, etc.), a mention > of > >>> the > >>> >>> >>> source, as complete as possible, would be very helpful. > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> Thanks again. > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> Tapas > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> On 27 October 2010 02:10, Pheeta Ram > wrote: > >>> >>> >>> > STATEMENT BY ARUNDHATI ROY > >>> >>> >>> > > >>> >>> >>> > I write this from Srinagar, Kashmir. This morning’s papers > say > >>> that I > >>> >>> >>> > may be arrested on charges of sedition for what I have said > at > >>> recent > >>> >>> >>> > public meetings on Kashmir. I said what millions of people > here > >>> say > >>> >>> >>> > every day. I said what I, as well as other commentators have > >>> written > >>> >>> >>> > and said for years. Anybody who cares to read the transcripts > of > >>> my > >>> >>> >>> > speeches will see that they were fundamentally a call for > >>> justice. I > >>> >>> >>> > spoke about justice for the people of Kashmir who live under > one > >>> of > >>> >>> >>> > the most brutal military occupations in the world; for > Kashmiri > >>> >>> >>> > Pandits who live out the tragedy of having been driven out of > >>> their > >>> >>> >>> > homeland; for Dalit soldiers killed in Kashmir whose graves I > >>> visited > >>> >>> >>> > on garbage heaps in their villages in Cuddalore; for the > Indian > >>> poor > >>> >>> >>> > who pay the price of this occupation in material ways and who > >>> >>> >>> > are > >>> now > >>> >>> >>> > learning to live in the terror of what is becoming a police > >>> state. > >>> >>> >>> > > >>> >>> >>> > Yesterday I traveled to Shopian, the apple-town in South > Kashmir > >>> >>> which > >>> >>> >>> > had remained closed for 47 days last year in protest against > the > >>> >>> >>> > brutal rape and murder of Asiya and Nilofer, the young women > >>> whose > >>> >>> >>> > bodies were found in a shallow stream near their homes and > whose > >>> >>> >>> > murderers have still not been brought to justice. I met > Shakeel, > >>> who > >>> >>> >>> > is Nilofer’s husband and Asiya’s brother. We sat in a circle > of > >>> >>> >>> > people crazed with grief and anger who had lost hope that > they > >>> would > >>> >>> >>> > ever get ‘insaf’—justice—from India, and now believed that > >>> >>> >>> > Azadi—freedom— was their only hope. I met young stone pelters > >>> >>> >>> > who > >>> had > >>> >>> >>> > been shot through their eyes. I traveled with a young man who > >>> told me > >>> >>> >>> > how three of his friends, teenagers in Anantnag district, had > >>> been > >>> >>> >>> > taken into custody and had their finger-nails pulled out as > >>> >>> punishment > >>> >>> >>> > for throwing stones. > >>> >>> >>> > > >>> >>> >>> > In the papers some have accused me of giving ‘hate-speeches’, > of > >>> >>> >>> > wanting India to break up. On the contrary, what I say comes > >>> >>> >>> > from > >>> >>> love > >>> >>> >>> > and pride. It comes from not wanting people to be killed, > raped, > >>> >>> >>> > imprisoned or have their finger-nails pulled out in order to > >>> force > >>> >>> >>> > them to say they are Indians. It comes from wanting to live > in a > >>> >>> >>> > society that is striving to be a just one. Pity the nation > that > >>> has > >>> >>> to > >>> >>> >>> > silence its writers for speaking their minds. Pity the nation > >>> that > >>> >>> >>> > needs to jail those who ask for justice, while communal > killers, > >>> mass > >>> >>> >>> > murderers, corporate scamsters, looters, rapists, and those > who > >>> prey > >>> >>> >>> > on the poorest of the poor, roam free. > >>> >>> >>> > > >>> >>> >>> > Arundhati Roy > >>> >>> >>> > > >>> >>> >>> > October 26 2010 > >>> >>> >>> > _________________________________________ > >>> >>> >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>> >>> >>> > Critiques & Collaborations > >>> >>> >>> > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > >>> >>> >>> > subscribe in the subject header. > >>> >>> >>> > To unsubscribe: > >>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>> >>> >>> > List archive: < > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >>> >>> >>> _________________________________________ > >>> >>> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>> >>> >>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>> >>> >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > >>> >>> >>> subscribe in the subject header. > >>> >>> >>> To unsubscribe: > >>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>> >>> >>> List archive: < > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> > _________________________________________ > >>> >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>> >>> > Critiques & Collaborations > >>> >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > >>> >>> subscribe > >>> >>> > in the subject header. > >>> >>> > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>> >>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >>> >>> > >>> >>> > >>> >>> -- > >>> >>> Rajkamal > >>> >>> _________________________________________ > >>> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>> >>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>> >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>> >>> subscribe in the subject header. > >>> >>> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>> >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >>> >>> > >>> >> _________________________________________ > >>> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>> >> Critiques & Collaborations > >>> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>> subscribe in the subject header. > >>> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >>> > > >>> _________________________________________ > >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>> subscribe in the subject header. > >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >>> > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe > >> in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > -- > > Rajkamal > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From c.anupam at gmail.com Wed Oct 27 18:57:45 2010 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 18:57:45 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Statement by Arundhati Roy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Samvit, I think i saw you near DU, leching at women and passing comments or somewhere in Colaba, standing by the roadside making comments like chalti kya because some woman was wearing some outfit. It is a shame that you are also in this list. Anupam On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 6:35 PM, anuradha mukherjee wrote: > Inder, I think she makes for a soft target because she is a woman, she is > pretty, speaks her mind in a non-violent manner (without the help of gun or > crotch grabbing bodyguards). I may disagree with her approach on may > issues, > may be not in essense but the way she articulates herself, but the woman is > courageous. It takes courage to defy the majority view like this. > And she gets attention, so those who berate her also share the limelight. > But I also disagree with the people who say "nothing happened, Jagmohan > created a bogey, Pandit left on their own", "Muslims wants them back" etc. > The last statement may or may not be true, but no community gives up its > hearths and homes and livelihoods overnight and chooses to live as > refugees. > But the tragedy of Kashmir is that its daily suffering forces it to > discount > the sufferings of its Hindu brothers. If you say Azadi, please do not say > that Pandits had it easy either (may be those with resources did). > > > On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 5:47 PM, Inder Salim wrote: > > > I guess people in India will read her only after she gets Nobel for > > literature. > > which she deserves > > > > > > love > > is > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 3:14 PM, Rajkamal Goswami > > wrote: > > > Dear Aditya > > > > > > I am sure yo know about her fictional work 1 novel & 1 screenplay. But > > > I am not sure if you have read her non-fictional work. Well she didn't > > > win booker for them but she won the "Sydney Peace Prize" and the > > > "Sahitya Akademi award" which she politely refused. Her body of non > > > fiction work is far greater (both in volume and quality) than her > > > fictional work. I hope you have read her work. If not please read > > > atleast the essential Roy viz "The greater common good", the "Algebra > > > of Infinite justice", "Come September", Do Turkeys Enjoy > > > Thanksgiving", "Peace is War", "Listening To Grasshoppers", "Shall We > > > Leave It to the Experts?" and my favorite “The Ladies have feelings > > > so…” You should definitely read the last one because it answers your > > > query about the very questions that you have raised. > > > > > > Regarding a fiction writer being political, well all writers are > > > political. That some chose to remain silent is also a political > > > activity. That Ms. Roy choses to write her politics and throw it open > > > to ideas and criticism is the best thing I really like about her. > > > Besides she is also indulged in field activism, giving her voice to > > > the voiceless and rooting for real democracy. > > > > > > Thanks > > > r > > > > > > On 10/27/10, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > > >> Are you the moderator? Just curious again. You indeed have a big hand. > > >> > > >> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 2:31 PM, Tapas Ray [Gmail] > > >> wrote: > > >> > > >>> ps: I mean, to Aditya. > > >>> > > >>> On 27 October 2010 14:30, Tapas Ray [Gmail] > > wrote: > > >>> > Really intelligent comment. Let's give him a big hand! > > >>> > > > >>> > On 27 October 2010 14:23, Aditya Raj Kaul > > > >>> wrote: > > >>> >> Isn't she a Fiction writer? Or is she really a writer? Just > curious. > > >>> >> > > >>> >> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 2:01 PM, Rajkamal Goswami < > > >>> rajkamalgoswami at gmail.com > > >>> >>> wrote: > > >>> >> > > >>> >>> I am just in awe of this woman. > > >>> >>> > > >>> >>> On 10/27/10, Tapas Ray [Gmail] wrote: > > >>> >>> > Pheeta, > > >>> >>> > > > >>> >>> > No problem, and no need to apologise! > > >>> >>> > > > >>> >>> > Best, > > >>> >>> > > > >>> >>> > Tapas > > >>> >>> > > > >>> >>> > On 27 October 2010 09:07, Pheeta Ram > > wrote: > > >>> >>> >> Dear Tapas > > >>> >>> >> Actually the statement was sent to me by somebody. I forgot to > > >>> >>> >> check > > >>> if > > >>> >>> it > > >>> >>> >> had already been published online; that's why there was no > link. > > >>> Thanks > > >>> >>> >> for > > >>> >>> >> reminding me the etiquettes of responsible online publishing. > > >>> >>> >> I shall take care next time. > > >>> >>> >> Pheeta Ram > > >>> >>> >> > > >>> >>> >> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 6:42 AM, Tapas Ray [Gmail] < > > >>> tapasrayx at gmail.com > > >>> >>> > > > >>> >>> >> wrote: > > >>> >>> >>> > > >>> >>> >>> Pheeta, > > >>> >>> >>> > > >>> >>> >>> Thanks for this. I think it would be good if we gave the > links > > >>> along > > >>> >>> >>> with any material from online sources that we might be > posting. > > >>> This > > >>> >>> >>> one's is > > >>> >>> >>> < > > >>> >>> > > >>> > > > http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/arundhati-roys-statement-on-possible-sedition-case-62566 > > >>> >>> >. > > >>> >>> >>> As for offline sources (e.g., printed books, etc.), a mention > > of > > >>> the > > >>> >>> >>> source, as complete as possible, would be very helpful. > > >>> >>> >>> > > >>> >>> >>> Thanks again. > > >>> >>> >>> > > >>> >>> >>> Tapas > > >>> >>> >>> > > >>> >>> >>> > > >>> >>> >>> On 27 October 2010 02:10, Pheeta Ram > > wrote: > > >>> >>> >>> > STATEMENT BY ARUNDHATI ROY > > >>> >>> >>> > > > >>> >>> >>> > I write this from Srinagar, Kashmir. This morning’s papers > > say > > >>> that I > > >>> >>> >>> > may be arrested on charges of sedition for what I have said > > at > > >>> recent > > >>> >>> >>> > public meetings on Kashmir. I said what millions of people > > here > > >>> say > > >>> >>> >>> > every day. I said what I, as well as other commentators > have > > >>> written > > >>> >>> >>> > and said for years. Anybody who cares to read the > transcripts > > of > > >>> my > > >>> >>> >>> > speeches will see that they were fundamentally a call for > > >>> justice. I > > >>> >>> >>> > spoke about justice for the people of Kashmir who live > under > > one > > >>> of > > >>> >>> >>> > the most brutal military occupations in the world; for > > Kashmiri > > >>> >>> >>> > Pandits who live out the tragedy of having been driven out > of > > >>> their > > >>> >>> >>> > homeland; for Dalit soldiers killed in Kashmir whose graves > I > > >>> visited > > >>> >>> >>> > on garbage heaps in their villages in Cuddalore; for the > > Indian > > >>> poor > > >>> >>> >>> > who pay the price of this occupation in material ways and > who > > >>> >>> >>> > are > > >>> now > > >>> >>> >>> > learning to live in the terror of what is becoming a police > > >>> state. > > >>> >>> >>> > > > >>> >>> >>> > Yesterday I traveled to Shopian, the apple-town in South > > Kashmir > > >>> >>> which > > >>> >>> >>> > had remained closed for 47 days last year in protest > against > > the > > >>> >>> >>> > brutal rape and murder of Asiya and Nilofer, the young > women > > >>> whose > > >>> >>> >>> > bodies were found in a shallow stream near their homes and > > whose > > >>> >>> >>> > murderers have still not been brought to justice. I met > > Shakeel, > > >>> who > > >>> >>> >>> > is Nilofer’s husband and Asiya’s brother. We sat in a > circle > > of > > >>> >>> >>> > people crazed with grief and anger who had lost hope that > > they > > >>> would > > >>> >>> >>> > ever get ‘insaf’—justice—from India, and now believed that > > >>> >>> >>> > Azadi—freedom— was their only hope. I met young stone > pelters > > >>> >>> >>> > who > > >>> had > > >>> >>> >>> > been shot through their eyes. I traveled with a young man > who > > >>> told me > > >>> >>> >>> > how three of his friends, teenagers in Anantnag district, > had > > >>> been > > >>> >>> >>> > taken into custody and had their finger-nails pulled out as > > >>> >>> punishment > > >>> >>> >>> > for throwing stones. > > >>> >>> >>> > > > >>> >>> >>> > In the papers some have accused me of giving > ‘hate-speeches’, > > of > > >>> >>> >>> > wanting India to break up. On the contrary, what I say > comes > > >>> >>> >>> > from > > >>> >>> love > > >>> >>> >>> > and pride. It comes from not wanting people to be killed, > > raped, > > >>> >>> >>> > imprisoned or have their finger-nails pulled out in order > to > > >>> force > > >>> >>> >>> > them to say they are Indians. It comes from wanting to live > > in a > > >>> >>> >>> > society that is striving to be a just one. Pity the nation > > that > > >>> has > > >>> >>> to > > >>> >>> >>> > silence its writers for speaking their minds. Pity the > nation > > >>> that > > >>> >>> >>> > needs to jail those who ask for justice, while communal > > killers, > > >>> mass > > >>> >>> >>> > murderers, corporate scamsters, looters, rapists, and those > > who > > >>> prey > > >>> >>> >>> > on the poorest of the poor, roam free. > > >>> >>> >>> > > > >>> >>> >>> > Arundhati Roy > > >>> >>> >>> > > > >>> >>> >>> > October 26 2010 > > >>> >>> >>> > _________________________________________ > > >>> >>> >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >>> >>> >>> > Critiques & Collaborations > > >>> >>> >>> > To subscribe: send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > >>> >>> >>> > subscribe in the subject header. > > >>> >>> >>> > To unsubscribe: > > >>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >>> >>> >>> > List archive: < > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > >>> >>> >>> _________________________________________ > > >>> >>> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >>> >>> >>> Critiques & Collaborations > > >>> >>> >>> To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > >>> >>> >>> subscribe in the subject header. > > >>> >>> >>> To unsubscribe: > > >>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >>> >>> >>> List archive: < > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > >>> >>> >> > > >>> >>> > _________________________________________ > > >>> >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >>> >>> > Critiques & Collaborations > > >>> >>> > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > >>> >>> subscribe > > >>> >>> > in the subject header. > > >>> >>> > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >>> >>> > List archive: < > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > >>> >>> > > >>> >>> > > >>> >>> -- > > >>> >>> Rajkamal > > >>> >>> _________________________________________ > > >>> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >>> >>> Critiques & Collaborations > > >>> >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > >>> >>> subscribe in the subject header. > > >>> >>> To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >>> >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > >>> >>> > > >>> >> _________________________________________ > > >>> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >>> >> Critiques & Collaborations > > >>> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > >>> subscribe in the subject header. > > >>> >> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >>> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > >>> > > > >>> _________________________________________ > > >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >>> Critiques & Collaborations > > >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > >>> subscribe in the subject header. > > >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > >>> > > >> _________________________________________ > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >> Critiques & Collaborations > > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe > > >> in the subject header. > > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Rajkamal > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > -- > > > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From samvitr at gmail.com Wed Oct 27 18:58:32 2010 From: samvitr at gmail.com (Samvit) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 18:58:32 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Statement by Arundhati Roy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Anuradha, Couple of points:- 1. Arundati is over the hill, least to say that she is "pretty". You are making us believe that in India good looking woman are not respected. There are thousands of pretty girls who work all kind of time zones and they make us proud. Woman have proved themselves in all fields, even outpacing men. So that logic doesn't count. 2. It is a typical Gobellian technique to say that she is non-violent. She instigates people to all kind of violence. She hops from city to city promoting her vision of an Utopian world. 2. And yes, you make it sound so simple about the Pandits. If you do not know the truth please do not make comments about people who have suffered like no Indian ever did. I just pray to God that you never have to face what the Pandits have gone thorugh. Imagine a situation where you have fanatics banging at you door and hunting for women in your family. You are ready to poison them before they fall prey to the fanatics. You call the police and you realize that they are siding with the zealots. The Indian state is impotent because we have khadi clad intellectuals who think helping the Pandits would be non-secular. The whole community is uprooted from the Valley while Sonia and Rajiv Gandhi are playing with snow en route to Kashmir. You do not even know half the story. So I suggest that you do some more research before you provide your expertise. Kashmir and Kashmiri are very complex, the Indian state is too naive to handle them. -Samvit On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 6:35 PM, anuradha mukherjee wrote: > Inder, I think she makes for a soft target because she is a woman, she is > pretty, speaks her mind in a non-violent manner (without the help of gun or > crotch grabbing bodyguards). I may disagree with her approach on may issues, > may be not in essense but the way she articulates herself, but the woman is > courageous. It takes courage to defy the majority view like this. > And she gets attention, so those who berate her also share the limelight. > But I also disagree with the people who say "nothing happened, Jagmohan > created a bogey, Pandit left on their own", "Muslims wants them back" etc. > The last statement may or may not be true, but no community gives up its > hearths and homes and livelihoods overnight and chooses to live as refugees. > But the tragedy of Kashmir is that its daily suffering forces it to discount > the sufferings of its Hindu brothers. If you say Azadi, please do not say > that Pandits had it easy either (may be those with resources did). > > > On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 5:47 PM, Inder Salim wrote: > >> I guess people in India will read her only after she gets Nobel for >> literature. >> which she deserves >> >> >> love >> is >> >> >> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 3:14 PM, Rajkamal Goswami >> wrote: >> > Dear Aditya >> > >> > I am sure yo know about her fictional work 1 novel & 1 screenplay. But >> > I am not sure if you have read her non-fictional work. Well she didn't >> > win booker for them but she won the "Sydney Peace Prize" and the >> > "Sahitya Akademi award" which she politely refused. Her body of non >> > fiction work is far greater (both in volume and quality) than her >> > fictional work. I hope you have read her work. If not please read >> > atleast the essential Roy viz "The greater common good", the "Algebra >> > of Infinite justice", "Come September", Do Turkeys Enjoy >> > Thanksgiving", "Peace is War", "Listening To Grasshoppers", "Shall We >> > Leave It to the Experts?" and my favorite  “The Ladies have feelings >> > so…”  You should definitely read the last one because it answers your >> > query about the very questions that you have raised. >> > >> > Regarding a fiction writer being political, well all writers are >> > political. That some chose to remain silent is also a political >> > activity. That Ms. Roy choses to write her politics and throw it open >> > to ideas and criticism is the best thing I really like about her. >> > Besides she is also indulged in field activism, giving her voice to >> > the voiceless and rooting for real democracy. >> > >> > Thanks >> > r >> > >> > On 10/27/10, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: >> >> Are you the moderator? Just curious again. You indeed have a big hand. >> >> >> >> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 2:31 PM, Tapas Ray [Gmail] >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >>> ps: I mean, to Aditya. >> >>> >> >>> On 27 October 2010 14:30, Tapas Ray [Gmail] >> wrote: >> >>> > Really intelligent comment. Let's give him a big hand! >> >>> > >> >>> > On 27 October 2010 14:23, Aditya Raj Kaul >> >>> wrote: >> >>> >> Isn't she a Fiction writer? Or is she really a writer? Just curious. >> >>> >> >> >>> >> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 2:01 PM, Rajkamal Goswami < >> >>> rajkamalgoswami at gmail.com >> >>> >>> wrote: >> >>> >> >> >>> >>> I am just in awe of this woman. >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> On 10/27/10, Tapas Ray [Gmail] wrote: >> >>> >>> > Pheeta, >> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> > No problem, and no need to apologise! >> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> > Best, >> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> > Tapas >> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> > On 27 October 2010 09:07, Pheeta Ram >> wrote: >> >>> >>> >> Dear Tapas >> >>> >>> >> Actually the statement was sent to me by somebody. I forgot to >> >>> >>> >> check >> >>> if >> >>> >>> it >> >>> >>> >> had already been published online; that's why there was no link. >> >>> Thanks >> >>> >>> >> for >> >>> >>> >> reminding me the etiquettes of responsible online publishing. >> >>> >>> >> I shall take care next time. >> >>> >>> >> Pheeta Ram >> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> >> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 6:42 AM, Tapas Ray [Gmail] < >> >>> tapasrayx at gmail.com >> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> >> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> Pheeta, >> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> Thanks for this. I think it would be good if we gave the links >> >>> along >> >>> >>> >>> with any material from online sources that we might be posting. >> >>> This >> >>> >>> >>> one's is >> >>> >>> >>> < >> >>> >>> >> >>> >> http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/arundhati-roys-statement-on-possible-sedition-case-62566 >> >>> >>> >. >> >>> >>> >>> As for offline sources (e.g., printed books, etc.), a mention >> of >> >>> the >> >>> >>> >>> source, as complete as possible, would be very helpful. >> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> Thanks again. >> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> Tapas >> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> On 27 October 2010 02:10, Pheeta Ram >> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> > STATEMENT BY ARUNDHATI ROY >> >>> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> >>> > I write this from Srinagar, Kashmir. This morning’s papers >> say >> >>> that I >> >>> >>> >>> > may be arrested on charges of sedition for what I have said >> at >> >>> recent >> >>> >>> >>> > public meetings on Kashmir. I said what millions of people >> here >> >>> say >> >>> >>> >>> > every day. I said what I, as well as other commentators have >> >>> written >> >>> >>> >>> > and said for years. Anybody who cares to read the transcripts >> of >> >>> my >> >>> >>> >>> > speeches will see that they were fundamentally a call for >> >>> justice. I >> >>> >>> >>> > spoke about justice for the people of Kashmir who live under >> one >> >>> of >> >>> >>> >>> > the most brutal military occupations in the world; for >> Kashmiri >> >>> >>> >>> > Pandits who live out the tragedy of having been driven out of >> >>> their >> >>> >>> >>> > homeland; for Dalit soldiers killed in Kashmir whose graves I >> >>> visited >> >>> >>> >>> > on garbage heaps in their villages in Cuddalore; for the >> Indian >> >>> poor >> >>> >>> >>> > who pay the price of this occupation in material ways and who >> >>> >>> >>> > are >> >>> now >> >>> >>> >>> > learning to live in the terror of what is becoming a police >> >>> state. >> >>> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> >>> > Yesterday I traveled to Shopian, the apple-town in South >> Kashmir >> >>> >>> which >> >>> >>> >>> > had remained closed for 47 days last year in protest against >> the >> >>> >>> >>> > brutal rape and murder of Asiya and Nilofer, the young women >> >>> whose >> >>> >>> >>> > bodies were found in a shallow stream near their homes and >> whose >> >>> >>> >>> > murderers have still not been brought to justice. I met >> Shakeel, >> >>> who >> >>> >>> >>> > is Nilofer’s husband and Asiya’s brother.  We sat in a circle >> of >> >>> >>> >>> > people crazed with grief and anger who had lost hope that >> they >> >>> would >> >>> >>> >>> > ever get ‘insaf’—justice—from India, and now believed that >> >>> >>> >>> > Azadi—freedom— was their only hope. I met young stone pelters >> >>> >>> >>> > who >> >>> had >> >>> >>> >>> > been shot through their eyes. I traveled with a young man who >> >>> told me >> >>> >>> >>> > how three of his friends, teenagers in Anantnag district, had >> >>> been >> >>> >>> >>> > taken into custody and had their finger-nails pulled out as >> >>> >>> punishment >> >>> >>> >>> > for throwing stones. >> >>> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> >>> > In the papers some have accused me of giving ‘hate-speeches’, >> of >> >>> >>> >>> > wanting India to break up. On the contrary, what I say comes >> >>> >>> >>> > from >> >>> >>> love >> >>> >>> >>> > and pride. It comes from not wanting people to be killed, >> raped, >> >>> >>> >>> > imprisoned or have their finger-nails pulled out in order to >> >>> force >> >>> >>> >>> > them to say they are Indians. It comes from wanting to live >> in a >> >>> >>> >>> > society that is striving to be a just one. Pity the nation >> that >> >>> has >> >>> >>> to >> >>> >>> >>> > silence its writers for speaking their minds. Pity the nation >> >>> that >> >>> >>> >>> > needs to jail those who ask for justice, while communal >> killers, >> >>> mass >> >>> >>> >>> > murderers, corporate scamsters, looters, rapists, and those >> who >> >>> prey >> >>> >>> >>> > on the poorest of the poor, roam free. >> >>> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> >>> > Arundhati Roy >> >>> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> >>> > October 26 2010 >> >>> >>> >>> > _________________________________________ >> >>> >>> >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >>> >>> >>> > Critiques & Collaborations >> >>> >>> >>> > To subscribe: send an email to >> reader-list-request at sarai.netwith >> >>> >>> >>> > subscribe in the subject header. >> >>> >>> >>> > To unsubscribe: >> >>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >>> >>> >>> > List archive: < >> https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >>> >>> >>> _________________________________________ >> >>> >>> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >>> >>> >>> Critiques & Collaborations >> >>> >>> >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith >> >>> >>> >>> subscribe in the subject header. >> >>> >>> >>> To unsubscribe: >> >>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >>> >>> >>> List archive: < >> https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> > _________________________________________ >> >>> >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >>> >>> > Critiques & Collaborations >> >>> >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith >> >>> >>> subscribe >> >>> >>> > in the subject header. >> >>> >>> > To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >>> >>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> -- >> >>> >>> Rajkamal >> >>> >>> _________________________________________ >> >>> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >>> >>> Critiques & Collaborations >> >>> >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >>> >>> subscribe in the subject header. >> >>> >>> To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >>> >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >>> >>> >> >>> >> _________________________________________ >> >>> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >>> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >>> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >>> subscribe in the subject header. >> >>> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >>> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >>> > >> >>> _________________________________________ >> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >>> Critiques & Collaborations >> >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >>> subscribe in the subject header. >> >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >>> >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe >> >> in the subject header. >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Rajkamal >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Samvit Rawal 9422037853 ----------------------------------------------------------- To err is human; to forgive, infrequent.   - Franklin P. Adams From anu.mukh at gmail.com Wed Oct 27 19:03:39 2010 From: anu.mukh at gmail.com (anuradha mukherjee) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 19:03:39 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Statement by Arundhati Roy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Samvit, I am not simplifying anything, but unike you I don't believe in frothing at the mouth everytime I make a statement. Besides, it's subjective whether one thinks she is pretty or not. And you were the one bringing in her clothes and her "lack of morals" into this. Before advising others to research, I have a word of advise for you, please grow up. I have the utmost sympathy with Kashmiri Pandits, but I also think they have the worst possible champions, they need better leaders. On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 6:58 PM, Samvit wrote: > Anuradha, > Couple of points:- > 1. Arundati is over the hill, least to say that she is "pretty". You > are making us believe that in India good looking woman are not > respected. There are thousands of pretty girls who work all kind of > time zones and they make us proud. Woman have proved themselves in all > fields, even outpacing men. So that logic doesn't count. > 2. It is a typical Gobellian technique to say that she is non-violent. > She instigates people to all kind of violence. She hops from city to > city promoting her vision of an Utopian world. > > 2. And yes, you make it sound so simple about the Pandits. If you do > not know the truth please do not make comments about people who have > suffered like no Indian ever did. I just pray to God that you never > have to face what the Pandits have gone thorugh. Imagine a situation > where you have fanatics banging at you door and hunting for women in > your family. You are ready to poison them before they fall prey to the > fanatics. You call the police and you realize that they are siding > with the zealots. The Indian state is impotent because we have khadi > clad intellectuals who think helping the Pandits would be non-secular. > The whole community is uprooted from the Valley while Sonia and Rajiv > Gandhi are playing with snow en route to Kashmir. You do not even know > half the story. So I suggest that you do some more research before you > provide your expertise. > > Kashmir and Kashmiri are very complex, the Indian state is too naive > to handle them. > -Samvit > > > > On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 6:35 PM, anuradha mukherjee > wrote: > > Inder, I think she makes for a soft target because she is a woman, she > is > > pretty, speaks her mind in a non-violent manner (without the help of gun > or > > crotch grabbing bodyguards). I may disagree with her approach on may > issues, > > may be not in essense but the way she articulates herself, but the woman > is > > courageous. It takes courage to defy the majority view like this. > > And she gets attention, so those who berate her also share the limelight. > > But I also disagree with the people who say "nothing happened, Jagmohan > > created a bogey, Pandit left on their own", "Muslims wants them back" > etc. > > The last statement may or may not be true, but no community gives up its > > hearths and homes and livelihoods overnight and chooses to live as > refugees. > > But the tragedy of Kashmir is that its daily suffering forces it to > discount > > the sufferings of its Hindu brothers. If you say Azadi, please do not say > > that Pandits had it easy either (may be those with resources did). > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 5:47 PM, Inder Salim > wrote: > > > >> I guess people in India will read her only after she gets Nobel for > >> literature. > >> which she deserves > >> > >> > >> love > >> is > >> > >> > >> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 3:14 PM, Rajkamal Goswami > >> wrote: > >> > Dear Aditya > >> > > >> > I am sure yo know about her fictional work 1 novel & 1 screenplay. But > >> > I am not sure if you have read her non-fictional work. Well she didn't > >> > win booker for them but she won the "Sydney Peace Prize" and the > >> > "Sahitya Akademi award" which she politely refused. Her body of non > >> > fiction work is far greater (both in volume and quality) than her > >> > fictional work. I hope you have read her work. If not please read > >> > atleast the essential Roy viz "The greater common good", the "Algebra > >> > of Infinite justice", "Come September", Do Turkeys Enjoy > >> > Thanksgiving", "Peace is War", "Listening To Grasshoppers", "Shall We > >> > Leave It to the Experts?" and my favorite “The Ladies have feelings > >> > so…” You should definitely read the last one because it answers your > >> > query about the very questions that you have raised. > >> > > >> > Regarding a fiction writer being political, well all writers are > >> > political. That some chose to remain silent is also a political > >> > activity. That Ms. Roy choses to write her politics and throw it open > >> > to ideas and criticism is the best thing I really like about her. > >> > Besides she is also indulged in field activism, giving her voice to > >> > the voiceless and rooting for real democracy. > >> > > >> > Thanks > >> > r > >> > > >> > On 10/27/10, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > >> >> Are you the moderator? Just curious again. You indeed have a big > hand. > >> >> > >> >> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 2:31 PM, Tapas Ray [Gmail] > >> >> wrote: > >> >> > >> >>> ps: I mean, to Aditya. > >> >>> > >> >>> On 27 October 2010 14:30, Tapas Ray [Gmail] > >> wrote: > >> >>> > Really intelligent comment. Let's give him a big hand! > >> >>> > > >> >>> > On 27 October 2010 14:23, Aditya Raj Kaul < > kauladityaraj at gmail.com> > >> >>> wrote: > >> >>> >> Isn't she a Fiction writer? Or is she really a writer? Just > curious. > >> >>> >> > >> >>> >> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 2:01 PM, Rajkamal Goswami < > >> >>> rajkamalgoswami at gmail.com > >> >>> >>> wrote: > >> >>> >> > >> >>> >>> I am just in awe of this woman. > >> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> On 10/27/10, Tapas Ray [Gmail] wrote: > >> >>> >>> > Pheeta, > >> >>> >>> > > >> >>> >>> > No problem, and no need to apologise! > >> >>> >>> > > >> >>> >>> > Best, > >> >>> >>> > > >> >>> >>> > Tapas > >> >>> >>> > > >> >>> >>> > On 27 October 2010 09:07, Pheeta Ram > >> wrote: > >> >>> >>> >> Dear Tapas > >> >>> >>> >> Actually the statement was sent to me by somebody. I forgot > to > >> >>> >>> >> check > >> >>> if > >> >>> >>> it > >> >>> >>> >> had already been published online; that's why there was no > link. > >> >>> Thanks > >> >>> >>> >> for > >> >>> >>> >> reminding me the etiquettes of responsible online publishing. > >> >>> >>> >> I shall take care next time. > >> >>> >>> >> Pheeta Ram > >> >>> >>> >> > >> >>> >>> >> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 6:42 AM, Tapas Ray [Gmail] < > >> >>> tapasrayx at gmail.com > >> >>> >>> > > >> >>> >>> >> wrote: > >> >>> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> >>> Pheeta, > >> >>> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> >>> Thanks for this. I think it would be good if we gave the > links > >> >>> along > >> >>> >>> >>> with any material from online sources that we might be > posting. > >> >>> This > >> >>> >>> >>> one's is > >> >>> >>> >>> < > >> >>> >>> > >> >>> > >> > http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/arundhati-roys-statement-on-possible-sedition-case-62566 > >> >>> >>> >. > >> >>> >>> >>> As for offline sources (e.g., printed books, etc.), a > mention > >> of > >> >>> the > >> >>> >>> >>> source, as complete as possible, would be very helpful. > >> >>> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> >>> Thanks again. > >> >>> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> >>> Tapas > >> >>> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> >>> On 27 October 2010 02:10, Pheeta Ram > >> wrote: > >> >>> >>> >>> > STATEMENT BY ARUNDHATI ROY > >> >>> >>> >>> > > >> >>> >>> >>> > I write this from Srinagar, Kashmir. This morning’s papers > >> say > >> >>> that I > >> >>> >>> >>> > may be arrested on charges of sedition for what I have > said > >> at > >> >>> recent > >> >>> >>> >>> > public meetings on Kashmir. I said what millions of people > >> here > >> >>> say > >> >>> >>> >>> > every day. I said what I, as well as other commentators > have > >> >>> written > >> >>> >>> >>> > and said for years. Anybody who cares to read the > transcripts > >> of > >> >>> my > >> >>> >>> >>> > speeches will see that they were fundamentally a call for > >> >>> justice. I > >> >>> >>> >>> > spoke about justice for the people of Kashmir who live > under > >> one > >> >>> of > >> >>> >>> >>> > the most brutal military occupations in the world; for > >> Kashmiri > >> >>> >>> >>> > Pandits who live out the tragedy of having been driven out > of > >> >>> their > >> >>> >>> >>> > homeland; for Dalit soldiers killed in Kashmir whose > graves I > >> >>> visited > >> >>> >>> >>> > on garbage heaps in their villages in Cuddalore; for the > >> Indian > >> >>> poor > >> >>> >>> >>> > who pay the price of this occupation in material ways and > who > >> >>> >>> >>> > are > >> >>> now > >> >>> >>> >>> > learning to live in the terror of what is becoming a > police > >> >>> state. > >> >>> >>> >>> > > >> >>> >>> >>> > Yesterday I traveled to Shopian, the apple-town in South > >> Kashmir > >> >>> >>> which > >> >>> >>> >>> > had remained closed for 47 days last year in protest > against > >> the > >> >>> >>> >>> > brutal rape and murder of Asiya and Nilofer, the young > women > >> >>> whose > >> >>> >>> >>> > bodies were found in a shallow stream near their homes and > >> whose > >> >>> >>> >>> > murderers have still not been brought to justice. I met > >> Shakeel, > >> >>> who > >> >>> >>> >>> > is Nilofer’s husband and Asiya’s brother. We sat in a > circle > >> of > >> >>> >>> >>> > people crazed with grief and anger who had lost hope that > >> they > >> >>> would > >> >>> >>> >>> > ever get ‘insaf’—justice—from India, and now believed that > >> >>> >>> >>> > Azadi—freedom— was their only hope. I met young stone > pelters > >> >>> >>> >>> > who > >> >>> had > >> >>> >>> >>> > been shot through their eyes. I traveled with a young man > who > >> >>> told me > >> >>> >>> >>> > how three of his friends, teenagers in Anantnag district, > had > >> >>> been > >> >>> >>> >>> > taken into custody and had their finger-nails pulled out > as > >> >>> >>> punishment > >> >>> >>> >>> > for throwing stones. > >> >>> >>> >>> > > >> >>> >>> >>> > In the papers some have accused me of giving > ‘hate-speeches’, > >> of > >> >>> >>> >>> > wanting India to break up. On the contrary, what I say > comes > >> >>> >>> >>> > from > >> >>> >>> love > >> >>> >>> >>> > and pride. It comes from not wanting people to be killed, > >> raped, > >> >>> >>> >>> > imprisoned or have their finger-nails pulled out in order > to > >> >>> force > >> >>> >>> >>> > them to say they are Indians. It comes from wanting to > live > >> in a > >> >>> >>> >>> > society that is striving to be a just one. Pity the nation > >> that > >> >>> has > >> >>> >>> to > >> >>> >>> >>> > silence its writers for speaking their minds. Pity the > nation > >> >>> that > >> >>> >>> >>> > needs to jail those who ask for justice, while communal > >> killers, > >> >>> mass > >> >>> >>> >>> > murderers, corporate scamsters, looters, rapists, and > those > >> who > >> >>> prey > >> >>> >>> >>> > on the poorest of the poor, roam free. > >> >>> >>> >>> > > >> >>> >>> >>> > Arundhati Roy > >> >>> >>> >>> > > >> >>> >>> >>> > October 26 2010 > >> >>> >>> >>> > _________________________________________ > >> >>> >>> >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > >> >>> >>> >>> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> >>> >>> >>> > To subscribe: send an email to > >> reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > >> >>> >>> >>> > subscribe in the subject header. > >> >>> >>> >>> > To unsubscribe: > >> >>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> >>> >>> >>> > List archive: < > >> https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> >>> >>> >>> _________________________________________ > >> >>> >>> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> >>> >>> >>> Critiques & Collaborations > >> >>> >>> >>> To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > >> >>> >>> >>> subscribe in the subject header. > >> >>> >>> >>> To unsubscribe: > >> >>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> >>> >>> >>> List archive: < > >> https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> >>> >>> >> > >> >>> >>> > _________________________________________ > >> >>> >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> >>> >>> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> >>> >>> > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > >> >>> >>> subscribe > >> >>> >>> > in the subject header. > >> >>> >>> > To unsubscribe: > >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> >>> >>> > List archive: < > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> > >> >>> >>> -- > >> >>> >>> Rajkamal > >> >>> >>> _________________________________________ > >> >>> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> >>> >>> Critiques & Collaborations > >> >>> >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > >> >>> >>> subscribe in the subject header. > >> >>> >>> To unsubscribe: > >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> >>> >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/ > > > >> >>> >>> > >> >>> >> _________________________________________ > >> >>> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> >>> >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> >>> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > >> >>> subscribe in the subject header. > >> >>> >> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> >>> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> >>> > > >> >>> _________________________________________ > >> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> >>> Critiques & Collaborations > >> >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> >>> subscribe in the subject header. > >> >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> >>> > >> >> _________________________________________ > >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe > >> >> in the subject header. > >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > Rajkamal > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> > >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > Samvit Rawal > 9422037853 > ----------------------------------------------------------- > To err is human; to forgive, infrequent. > - Franklin P. Adams > From epk at xs4all.nl Wed Oct 27 19:13:12 2010 From: epk at xs4all.nl (Eric Kluitenberg) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 15:43:12 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] Economies of the Commons 2: Paying the costs of making things free - Conference, seminar and public programs, Amsterdam & Hilversum 11 - 13 November 2010 Message-ID: <10326454-3FBB-4BF9-AD46-63B96E107985@xs4all.nl> A N N O U N C E M E N T Economies of the Commons 2 Paying the costs of making things free International conference, seminar and public evening programs Amsterdam & Hilversum November 11 – 13, 2010 Economies of the Commons 2 is a critical examination of the economics of on-line public domain and open access resources of information, knowledge, and media (the ‘digital commons’). The past 10 years have seen the rise of a variety of such open content resources attracting millions of users, sometimes on a daily basis. The impact of projects such as Wikipedia, Images of the Future, and Europeana testify to the vibrancy of the new digital public domain. No longer left to the exclusive domains of digital ‘insiders’, open content resources are rapidly becoming widely used and highly popular. While protagonists of open content praise its low-cost accessibility and collaborative structures, critics claim it undermines the established “gate keeping” functions of authors, the academy, and professional institutions while lacking a reliable business model of its own. Economies of the Commons 2 provides a timely and crucial analysis of sustainable economic models that can promote and safeguard the online public domain. We want to find out what the new hybrid solutions are for archiving, access and reuse of on-line content that can both create viable markets and serve the public interest in a competitive global 21st century information economy. Economies of the Commons 2 consists of an international seminar on Open Video hosted by the Netherlands Institute for Sound and Vision on November 11 in Hilversum, a two day international conference and two public evening programs on November 12 and 13 at De Balie, centre for culture and politics in Amsterdam. The event builds upon the successful Economies of the Commons conference organised in April 2008. Confirmed speakers include: Charlotte Hess (Syracuse University - Keynote), Ben Moskowitz (Open Video Alliance), Simona Levi (Free Culture Forum), Bas Savenije (Royal Library The Hague), Michael Edson (Smithsonian Commons), Yann Moulier Boutang (Multitudes), Peter B. Kaufman (Intelligent Television), Harry Verwayen (Europeana), James Boyle (Duke University), Rufus Pollock (Open Knowledge Foundation), Jeff Ubois (DTN), Sandra Fauconnier (NIMK), Volker Grassmuck (USP Sao Paulo), Dymitri Kleiner (Telekommunisten), Jaromil (NIMK Artlab), Marco Sachy (Erasmus University Rotterdam), Nathaniel Tkacz (Melbourne University), Dolf Veenvliet (Blender), Michael Dale (Open Media for Wikipedia), Lucie Guibault (University of Amsterdam), a.o. Organisers: Images for the Future Consortium / Netherlands Institute for Sound and Vision / De Balie / Institute of Network Cultures University of Amsterdam, Department of New Media For detailed program information check our website: www.ecommons.eu From indersalim at gmail.com Wed Oct 27 19:17:15 2010 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 19:17:15 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Statement by Arundhati Roy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks dear Samvit how many saner voices you think are left in india? who, is there who talks about poor, their rights and their significance? Who is there who talks about happiness for all, not on paper but actually going there, studying their problems. Dont you think that we need to preserve our forsts and the people who are living in that system? who in your mind deserves an applause? The people who cut forests, do reckless mining in the name development with no respect to their shrines and ecosystem which sustained them thousands and thousand of years. What is ur definition of main stream ? It is road rolling of pebbles called ordinary human beings... the people at the helm in India are busy misappropriate funds to buy properties here and abroad. take any corporate, and see how how they have bungled with nationalized banks. Each one of them have tricked the system.... i have really lost faith in the white colored bureaucrat and the politicians who plays the role of a middle man between the contractor and the administrator The system is sick with children of living and dead politicians coming to power, running to grab the seats of democracy. The problem with India is that only poor people love this country, it culture and its diversity, the rest of middle class and upper middle class are constantly thinking to grab the opportunity and run out and settle abraod, or by pass the norms.... We use the people like we use toilet paper, that is why there is child labour, there is bride burning, there is attack on dalits, there is oppression against muslims... it not about Hindu India, it just happens that the system is run by upper caste Hindus, sad..... just tell me which sector is healthy in India. What is the level of contamination in food, medicine etc... forget abouit justice in our country. It is worse for the poor, forget good education, it is all meant for people who have access to public schools.... Imagine, Delhi Govt managing its schools in tents, and if there are buildings, there are no stools/benchs for them to sit. Shame, that we spend so much money for CWG Well, if you dont like voices, just be.. happy as most of us are.... love is On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 6:34 PM, Samvit wrote: > I think that she is an intellectual leftover. It is very surprising > that I find people of Sarai are raving about a woman who is > pardaoxically opposite to the leftist ideology.  While the stories of > her promiscuity are legendary I would not talk about them as it would > be interfering in her personal life. However some years back I saw her > in the skimpiest clothing going to the most capitalistic gym anyone > can think of. > > Those who rave about her writing need to read more writers and they > would realize what talent Arundati has got. Also, it is "en vogue" to > write against India. The great India rope trick sells like hot cake. > Write a book that says elephants run on Indian roads and it sells like > hot cake in the "developed world". > It is the intellectual leftovers like her and Gautam Navlakha who call > India "a corporate Hindu state". It is pretty sad that people on this > forum are "in awe of her". > -Samvit > > On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 5:47 PM, Inder Salim wrote: >> I guess people in India will read her only after she gets Nobel for literature. >> which she deserves >> >> >> love >> is >> >> >> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 3:14 PM, Rajkamal Goswami >> wrote: >>> Dear Aditya >>> >>> I am sure yo know about her fictional work 1 novel & 1 screenplay. But >>> I am not sure if you have read her non-fictional work. Well she didn't >>> win booker for them but she won the "Sydney Peace Prize" and the >>> "Sahitya Akademi award" which she politely refused. Her body of non >>> fiction work is far greater (both in volume and quality) than her >>> fictional work. I hope you have read her work. If not please read >>> atleast the essential Roy viz "The greater common good", the "Algebra >>> of Infinite justice", "Come September", Do Turkeys Enjoy >>> Thanksgiving", "Peace is War", "Listening To Grasshoppers", "Shall We >>> Leave It to the Experts?" and my favorite  “The Ladies have feelings >>> so…”  You should definitely read the last one because it answers your >>> query about the very questions that you have raised. >>> >>> Regarding a fiction writer being political, well all writers are >>> political. That some chose to remain silent is also a political >>> activity. That Ms. Roy choses to write her politics and throw it open >>> to ideas and criticism is the best thing I really like about her. >>> Besides she is also indulged in field activism, giving her voice to >>> the voiceless and rooting for real democracy. >>> >>> Thanks >>> r >>> >>> On 10/27/10, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: >>>> Are you the moderator? Just curious again. You indeed have a big hand. >>>> >>>> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 2:31 PM, Tapas Ray [Gmail] >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> ps: I mean, to Aditya. >>>>> >>>>> On 27 October 2010 14:30, Tapas Ray [Gmail] wrote: >>>>> > Really intelligent comment. Let's give him a big hand! >>>>> > >>>>> > On 27 October 2010 14:23, Aditya Raj Kaul >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >> Isn't she a Fiction writer? Or is she really a writer? Just curious. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 2:01 PM, Rajkamal Goswami < >>>>> rajkamalgoswami at gmail.com >>>>> >>> wrote: >>>>> >> >>>>> >>> I am just in awe of this woman. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> On 10/27/10, Tapas Ray [Gmail] wrote: >>>>> >>> > Pheeta, >>>>> >>> > >>>>> >>> > No problem, and no need to apologise! >>>>> >>> > >>>>> >>> > Best, >>>>> >>> > >>>>> >>> > Tapas >>>>> >>> > >>>>> >>> > On 27 October 2010 09:07, Pheeta Ram wrote: >>>>> >>> >> Dear Tapas >>>>> >>> >> Actually the statement was sent to me by somebody. I forgot to >>>>> >>> >> check >>>>> if >>>>> >>> it >>>>> >>> >> had already been published online; that's why there was no link. >>>>> Thanks >>>>> >>> >> for >>>>> >>> >> reminding me the etiquettes of responsible online publishing. >>>>> >>> >> I shall take care next time. >>>>> >>> >> Pheeta Ram >>>>> >>> >> >>>>> >>> >> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 6:42 AM, Tapas Ray [Gmail] < >>>>> tapasrayx at gmail.com >>>>> >>> > >>>>> >>> >> wrote: >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> Pheeta, >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> Thanks for this. I think it would be good if we gave the links >>>>> along >>>>> >>> >>> with any material from online sources that we might be posting. >>>>> This >>>>> >>> >>> one's is >>>>> >>> >>> < >>>>> >>> >>>>> http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/arundhati-roys-statement-on-possible-sedition-case-62566 >>>>> >>> >. >>>>> >>> >>> As for offline sources (e.g., printed books, etc.), a mention of >>>>> the >>>>> >>> >>> source, as complete as possible, would be very helpful. >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> Thanks again. >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> Tapas >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> On 27 October 2010 02:10, Pheeta Ram wrote: >>>>> >>> >>> > STATEMENT BY ARUNDHATI ROY >>>>> >>> >>> > >>>>> >>> >>> > I write this from Srinagar, Kashmir. This morning’s papers say >>>>> that I >>>>> >>> >>> > may be arrested on charges of sedition for what I have said at >>>>> recent >>>>> >>> >>> > public meetings on Kashmir. I said what millions of people here >>>>> say >>>>> >>> >>> > every day. I said what I, as well as other commentators have >>>>> written >>>>> >>> >>> > and said for years. Anybody who cares to read the transcripts of >>>>> my >>>>> >>> >>> > speeches will see that they were fundamentally a call for >>>>> justice. I >>>>> >>> >>> > spoke about justice for the people of Kashmir who live under one >>>>> of >>>>> >>> >>> > the most brutal military occupations in the world; for Kashmiri >>>>> >>> >>> > Pandits who live out the tragedy of having been driven out of >>>>> their >>>>> >>> >>> > homeland; for Dalit soldiers killed in Kashmir whose graves I >>>>> visited >>>>> >>> >>> > on garbage heaps in their villages in Cuddalore; for the Indian >>>>> poor >>>>> >>> >>> > who pay the price of this occupation in material ways and who >>>>> >>> >>> > are >>>>> now >>>>> >>> >>> > learning to live in the terror of what is becoming a police >>>>> state. >>>>> >>> >>> > >>>>> >>> >>> > Yesterday I traveled to Shopian, the apple-town in South Kashmir >>>>> >>> which >>>>> >>> >>> > had remained closed for 47 days last year in protest against the >>>>> >>> >>> > brutal rape and murder of Asiya and Nilofer, the young women >>>>> whose >>>>> >>> >>> > bodies were found in a shallow stream near their homes and whose >>>>> >>> >>> > murderers have still not been brought to justice. I met Shakeel, >>>>> who >>>>> >>> >>> > is Nilofer’s husband and Asiya’s brother.  We sat in a circle of >>>>> >>> >>> > people crazed with grief and anger who had lost hope that they >>>>> would >>>>> >>> >>> > ever get ‘insaf’—justice—from India, and now believed that >>>>> >>> >>> > Azadi—freedom— was their only hope. I met young stone pelters >>>>> >>> >>> > who >>>>> had >>>>> >>> >>> > been shot through their eyes. I traveled with a young man who >>>>> told me >>>>> >>> >>> > how three of his friends, teenagers in Anantnag district, had >>>>> been >>>>> >>> >>> > taken into custody and had their finger-nails pulled out as >>>>> >>> punishment >>>>> >>> >>> > for throwing stones. >>>>> >>> >>> > >>>>> >>> >>> > In the papers some have accused me of giving ‘hate-speeches’, of >>>>> >>> >>> > wanting India to break up. On the contrary, what I say comes >>>>> >>> >>> > from >>>>> >>> love >>>>> >>> >>> > and pride. It comes from not wanting people to be killed, raped, >>>>> >>> >>> > imprisoned or have their finger-nails pulled out in order to >>>>> force >>>>> >>> >>> > them to say they are Indians. It comes from wanting to live in a >>>>> >>> >>> > society that is striving to be a just one. Pity the nation that >>>>> has >>>>> >>> to >>>>> >>> >>> > silence its writers for speaking their minds. Pity the nation >>>>> that >>>>> >>> >>> > needs to jail those who ask for justice, while communal killers, >>>>> mass >>>>> >>> >>> > murderers, corporate scamsters, looters, rapists, and those who >>>>> prey >>>>> >>> >>> > on the poorest of the poor, roam free. >>>>> >>> >>> > >>>>> >>> >>> > Arundhati Roy >>>>> >>> >>> > >>>>> >>> >>> > October 26 2010 >>>>> >>> >>> > _________________________________________ >>>>> >>> >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>> >>> >>> > Critiques & Collaborations >>>>> >>> >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith >>>>> >>> >>> > subscribe in the subject header. >>>>> >>> >>> > To unsubscribe: >>>>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>> >>> >>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>> >>> >>> _________________________________________ >>>>> >>> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>> >>> >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>> >>> >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>> >>> >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>>> >>> >>> To unsubscribe: >>>>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>> >>> >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>> >>> >> >>>>> >>> > _________________________________________ >>>>> >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>> >>> > Critiques & Collaborations >>>>> >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>> >>> subscribe >>>>> >>> > in the subject header. >>>>> >>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>> >>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> -- >>>>> >>> Rajkamal >>>>> >>> _________________________________________ >>>>> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>> >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>> >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>> >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>>> >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>> >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >> _________________________________________ >>>>> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>> >> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>>> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>> > >>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>> >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe >>>> in the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Rajkamal >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > Samvit Rawal > 9422037853 > ----------------------------------------------------------- > To err is human; to forgive, infrequent. >   - Franklin P. Adams > -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From c.anupam at gmail.com Wed Oct 27 19:22:00 2010 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 19:22:00 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Statement by Arundhati Roy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Samvit, Are you saying that lecherous bastards do not have a philosophy? You are undermining your own kinds? What were you doing in that gymnasium? trying to play the peeping tom..huh? Warm regards Anupam On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 7:17 PM, Inder Salim wrote: > Thanks dear Samvit > > how many saner voices you think are left in india? > who, is there who talks about poor, their rights and their significance? > Who is there who talks about happiness for all, not on paper but > actually going there, studying their problems. Dont you think that we > need to preserve our forsts and the people who are living in that > system? > > who in your mind deserves an applause? The people who cut forests, do > reckless mining in the name development with no respect to their > shrines and ecosystem which sustained them thousands and thousand of > years. What is ur definition of main stream ? It is road rolling of > pebbles called ordinary human beings... > > the people at the helm in India are busy misappropriate funds to buy > properties here and abroad. take any corporate, and see how how they > have bungled with nationalized banks. Each one of them have tricked > the system.... i have really lost faith in the white colored > bureaucrat and the politicians who plays the role of a middle man > between the contractor and the administrator > > The system is sick with children of living and dead politicians coming > to power, running to grab the seats of democracy. > > The problem with India is that only poor people love this country, it > culture and its diversity, the rest of middle class and upper middle > class are constantly thinking to grab the opportunity and run out and > settle abraod, or by pass the norms.... We use the people like we use > toilet paper, that is why there is child labour, there is bride > burning, there is attack on dalits, there is oppression against > muslims... it not about Hindu India, it just happens that the system > is run by upper caste Hindus, sad..... > > just tell me which sector is healthy in India. What is the level of > contamination in food, medicine etc... forget abouit justice in our > country. It is worse for the poor, forget good education, it is all > meant for people who have access to public schools.... > > Imagine, Delhi Govt managing its schools in tents, and if there are > buildings, there are no stools/benchs for them to sit. Shame, that we > spend so much money for CWG > > Well, if you dont like voices, just be.. happy as most of us are.... > > love > is > > > > On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 6:34 PM, Samvit wrote: > > I think that she is an intellectual leftover. It is very surprising > > that I find people of Sarai are raving about a woman who is > > pardaoxically opposite to the leftist ideology. While the stories of > > her promiscuity are legendary I would not talk about them as it would > > be interfering in her personal life. However some years back I saw her > > in the skimpiest clothing going to the most capitalistic gym anyone > > can think of. > > > > Those who rave about her writing need to read more writers and they > > would realize what talent Arundati has got. Also, it is "en vogue" to > > write against India. The great India rope trick sells like hot cake. > > Write a book that says elephants run on Indian roads and it sells like > > hot cake in the "developed world". > > It is the intellectual leftovers like her and Gautam Navlakha who call > > India "a corporate Hindu state". It is pretty sad that people on this > > forum are "in awe of her". > > -Samvit > > > > On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 5:47 PM, Inder Salim > wrote: > >> I guess people in India will read her only after she gets Nobel for > literature. > >> which she deserves > >> > >> > >> love > >> is > >> > >> > >> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 3:14 PM, Rajkamal Goswami > >> wrote: > >>> Dear Aditya > >>> > >>> I am sure yo know about her fictional work 1 novel & 1 screenplay. But > >>> I am not sure if you have read her non-fictional work. Well she didn't > >>> win booker for them but she won the "Sydney Peace Prize" and the > >>> "Sahitya Akademi award" which she politely refused. Her body of non > >>> fiction work is far greater (both in volume and quality) than her > >>> fictional work. I hope you have read her work. If not please read > >>> atleast the essential Roy viz "The greater common good", the "Algebra > >>> of Infinite justice", "Come September", Do Turkeys Enjoy > >>> Thanksgiving", "Peace is War", "Listening To Grasshoppers", "Shall We > >>> Leave It to the Experts?" and my favorite “The Ladies have feelings > >>> so…” You should definitely read the last one because it answers your > >>> query about the very questions that you have raised. > >>> > >>> Regarding a fiction writer being political, well all writers are > >>> political. That some chose to remain silent is also a political > >>> activity. That Ms. Roy choses to write her politics and throw it open > >>> to ideas and criticism is the best thing I really like about her. > >>> Besides she is also indulged in field activism, giving her voice to > >>> the voiceless and rooting for real democracy. > >>> > >>> Thanks > >>> r > >>> > >>> On 10/27/10, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > >>>> Are you the moderator? Just curious again. You indeed have a big hand. > >>>> > >>>> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 2:31 PM, Tapas Ray [Gmail] > >>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> ps: I mean, to Aditya. > >>>>> > >>>>> On 27 October 2010 14:30, Tapas Ray [Gmail] > wrote: > >>>>> > Really intelligent comment. Let's give him a big hand! > >>>>> > > >>>>> > On 27 October 2010 14:23, Aditya Raj Kaul > > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>> >> Isn't she a Fiction writer? Or is she really a writer? Just > curious. > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 2:01 PM, Rajkamal Goswami < > >>>>> rajkamalgoswami at gmail.com > >>>>> >>> wrote: > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >>> I am just in awe of this woman. > >>>>> >>> > >>>>> >>> On 10/27/10, Tapas Ray [Gmail] wrote: > >>>>> >>> > Pheeta, > >>>>> >>> > > >>>>> >>> > No problem, and no need to apologise! > >>>>> >>> > > >>>>> >>> > Best, > >>>>> >>> > > >>>>> >>> > Tapas > >>>>> >>> > > >>>>> >>> > On 27 October 2010 09:07, Pheeta Ram > wrote: > >>>>> >>> >> Dear Tapas > >>>>> >>> >> Actually the statement was sent to me by somebody. I forgot to > >>>>> >>> >> check > >>>>> if > >>>>> >>> it > >>>>> >>> >> had already been published online; that's why there was no > link. > >>>>> Thanks > >>>>> >>> >> for > >>>>> >>> >> reminding me the etiquettes of responsible online publishing. > >>>>> >>> >> I shall take care next time. > >>>>> >>> >> Pheeta Ram > >>>>> >>> >> > >>>>> >>> >> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 6:42 AM, Tapas Ray [Gmail] < > >>>>> tapasrayx at gmail.com > >>>>> >>> > > >>>>> >>> >> wrote: > >>>>> >>> >>> > >>>>> >>> >>> Pheeta, > >>>>> >>> >>> > >>>>> >>> >>> Thanks for this. I think it would be good if we gave the > links > >>>>> along > >>>>> >>> >>> with any material from online sources that we might be > posting. > >>>>> This > >>>>> >>> >>> one's is > >>>>> >>> >>> < > >>>>> >>> > >>>>> > http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/arundhati-roys-statement-on-possible-sedition-case-62566 > >>>>> >>> >. > >>>>> >>> >>> As for offline sources (e.g., printed books, etc.), a mention > of > >>>>> the > >>>>> >>> >>> source, as complete as possible, would be very helpful. > >>>>> >>> >>> > >>>>> >>> >>> Thanks again. > >>>>> >>> >>> > >>>>> >>> >>> Tapas > >>>>> >>> >>> > >>>>> >>> >>> > >>>>> >>> >>> On 27 October 2010 02:10, Pheeta Ram > wrote: > >>>>> >>> >>> > STATEMENT BY ARUNDHATI ROY > >>>>> >>> >>> > > >>>>> >>> >>> > I write this from Srinagar, Kashmir. This morning’s papers > say > >>>>> that I > >>>>> >>> >>> > may be arrested on charges of sedition for what I have said > at > >>>>> recent > >>>>> >>> >>> > public meetings on Kashmir. I said what millions of people > here > >>>>> say > >>>>> >>> >>> > every day. I said what I, as well as other commentators > have > >>>>> written > >>>>> >>> >>> > and said for years. Anybody who cares to read the > transcripts of > >>>>> my > >>>>> >>> >>> > speeches will see that they were fundamentally a call for > >>>>> justice. I > >>>>> >>> >>> > spoke about justice for the people of Kashmir who live > under one > >>>>> of > >>>>> >>> >>> > the most brutal military occupations in the world; for > Kashmiri > >>>>> >>> >>> > Pandits who live out the tragedy of having been driven out > of > >>>>> their > >>>>> >>> >>> > homeland; for Dalit soldiers killed in Kashmir whose graves > I > >>>>> visited > >>>>> >>> >>> > on garbage heaps in their villages in Cuddalore; for the > Indian > >>>>> poor > >>>>> >>> >>> > who pay the price of this occupation in material ways and > who > >>>>> >>> >>> > are > >>>>> now > >>>>> >>> >>> > learning to live in the terror of what is becoming a police > >>>>> state. > >>>>> >>> >>> > > >>>>> >>> >>> > Yesterday I traveled to Shopian, the apple-town in South > Kashmir > >>>>> >>> which > >>>>> >>> >>> > had remained closed for 47 days last year in protest > against the > >>>>> >>> >>> > brutal rape and murder of Asiya and Nilofer, the young > women > >>>>> whose > >>>>> >>> >>> > bodies were found in a shallow stream near their homes and > whose > >>>>> >>> >>> > murderers have still not been brought to justice. I met > Shakeel, > >>>>> who > >>>>> >>> >>> > is Nilofer’s husband and Asiya’s brother. We sat in a > circle of > >>>>> >>> >>> > people crazed with grief and anger who had lost hope that > they > >>>>> would > >>>>> >>> >>> > ever get ‘insaf’—justice—from India, and now believed that > >>>>> >>> >>> > Azadi—freedom— was their only hope. I met young stone > pelters > >>>>> >>> >>> > who > >>>>> had > >>>>> >>> >>> > been shot through their eyes. I traveled with a young man > who > >>>>> told me > >>>>> >>> >>> > how three of his friends, teenagers in Anantnag district, > had > >>>>> been > >>>>> >>> >>> > taken into custody and had their finger-nails pulled out as > >>>>> >>> punishment > >>>>> >>> >>> > for throwing stones. > >>>>> >>> >>> > > >>>>> >>> >>> > In the papers some have accused me of giving > ‘hate-speeches’, of > >>>>> >>> >>> > wanting India to break up. On the contrary, what I say > comes > >>>>> >>> >>> > from > >>>>> >>> love > >>>>> >>> >>> > and pride. It comes from not wanting people to be killed, > raped, > >>>>> >>> >>> > imprisoned or have their finger-nails pulled out in order > to > >>>>> force > >>>>> >>> >>> > them to say they are Indians. It comes from wanting to live > in a > >>>>> >>> >>> > society that is striving to be a just one. Pity the nation > that > >>>>> has > >>>>> >>> to > >>>>> >>> >>> > silence its writers for speaking their minds. Pity the > nation > >>>>> that > >>>>> >>> >>> > needs to jail those who ask for justice, while communal > killers, > >>>>> mass > >>>>> >>> >>> > murderers, corporate scamsters, looters, rapists, and those > who > >>>>> prey > >>>>> >>> >>> > on the poorest of the poor, roam free. > >>>>> >>> >>> > > >>>>> >>> >>> > Arundhati Roy > >>>>> >>> >>> > > >>>>> >>> >>> > October 26 2010 > >>>>> >>> >>> > _________________________________________ > >>>>> >>> >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>>>> >>> >>> > Critiques & Collaborations > >>>>> >>> >>> > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > >>>>> >>> >>> > subscribe in the subject header. > >>>>> >>> >>> > To unsubscribe: > >>>>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>>>> >>> >>> > List archive: < > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >>>>> >>> >>> _________________________________________ > >>>>> >>> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>>>> >>> >>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>>>> >>> >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > >>>>> >>> >>> subscribe in the subject header. > >>>>> >>> >>> To unsubscribe: > >>>>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>>>> >>> >>> List archive: < > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >>>>> >>> >> > >>>>> >>> > _________________________________________ > >>>>> >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>>>> >>> > Critiques & Collaborations > >>>>> >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > >>>>> >>> subscribe > >>>>> >>> > in the subject header. > >>>>> >>> > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>>>> >>> > List archive: < > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >>>>> >>> > >>>>> >>> > >>>>> >>> -- > >>>>> >>> Rajkamal > >>>>> >>> _________________________________________ > >>>>> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>>>> >>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>>>> >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > >>>>> >>> subscribe in the subject header. > >>>>> >>> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>>>> >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >>>>> >>> > >>>>> >> _________________________________________ > >>>>> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>>>> >> Critiques & Collaborations > >>>>> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>>>> subscribe in the subject header. > >>>>> >> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>>>> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >>>>> > > >>>>> _________________________________________ > >>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>>>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>>>> subscribe in the subject header. > >>>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >>>>> > >>>> _________________________________________ > >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe > >>>> in the subject header. > >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Rajkamal > >>> _________________________________________ > >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> > >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > -- > > Samvit Rawal > > 9422037853 > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > To err is human; to forgive, infrequent. > > - Franklin P. Adams > > > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From cubbykabi at yahoo.com Wed Oct 27 19:24:34 2010 From: cubbykabi at yahoo.com (kabi cubby sherman) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 19:24:34 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Meet The Movement: A public talk with Wikipedia founder, Jimmy Wales, and members of Wikimedia India Message-ID: <246343.9644.qm@web94712.mail.in2.yahoo.com> please circulate widely. > >Wikipedia is a vital, free resource used by millions of people all >over the world, including in India. This ubiquitous information >repository includes hundreds of thousands of articles in various >Indian languages, covering myriad of topics about India and its >culture. Although Wikipedia is an indispensable resource to millions, >little is known about how this online encyclopedia is written and who >it is written by. This Sunday, October 31 at 6:30pm, anyone who is >interested in learning more about this global public resource is >invited to “Meet the Movement:” a talk with Jimmy Wales and members of >the Wikimedia community in India. This talk is an opportunity to >learn more about how Wikipedia works and why participation from the >people of India is integral to Wikimedia’s global free-knowledge >movement. > >The iconic leader, who founded Wikipedia in 2001, will give a public >talk about the history of Wikipedia and what the free knowledge >movement means to India. For instance, 75 percent of all schools in >India have either online or offline access to Wikipedia and >Wiktionary, a sister project. Additionally, 94 percent of page views >from India are for the English Wikipedia, rather than Indian >languages. What does that mean about the importance of Wikipedia in >India and the needs of Indian users? Wales will discuss this during >his talk and members of Wikimedia India, as well as Wikimedia >Foundation Board member, Bishakha Datta, will join Wales for a 30 >minute open question and answer session with the audience. > >Date: Sunday October 31 >Time: 6.30 pm >Venue: Sophia Bhabha Hall, Sophia College campus, Bhulabhai Desai >Road, Breach Candy, Mumbai 400026 > >This talk is open to the public on a first-come-first-seated basis. > >For more information, please visit >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Meetup/Mumbai/Mumbai3 > > > > > > From shuddha at sarai.net Wed Oct 27 18:51:36 2010 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 18:51:36 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Two Essential Commentaries on Sedition Message-ID: <54C7D298-22D4-477B-96E7-AC8555A9D913@sarai.net> Dear All, Here are, two, (in my opinion) absolutely briliiant commentaries on the question of sedition, that some people have been arguing about on this list. The first, 'Sedition is the Highest Duty of the Citizen' is by Nivedita Menon, and the second, The Restitution of the Conjugal Rights of the State, by Lawrence Liang over the past two days on Kafila.org. Apologies in advance for cross-posting. The two texts can be accessed at 1. Sedition, the Highest Duty of the Citizen, by Nivedita Menon http://kafila.org/2010/10/26/sedition-the-highest-duty-of-a-citizen/ 2. Restitution of the Conjugal Rights of the State, by Lawrence Liang http://kafila.org/2010/10/27/the-restitution-of-the-conjugal-rights- of-the-state/ Personally, I never cease to be surprised at how quickly my e-mail in- box, and the comments section after allegedly 'seditious' posts made by me fills up with suggestions that I be raped by someone, or that I be forced to have sex with someone, (often a female blood relative). These suggestions invariably stem from upright and self-declared Indian nationalists, using 'handles' like 'Indian National' - whose prime pass-time seems to be fantasizing about alleged seditionists like my self and some of my friends being made to entangle in some form or the other of forced sexual activity against our consent. On second thoughts, there is no real reason to be surprised. Given the predeliction that sections of the state security apparatus (the army, the CRPF, the BSF and the various police organizations) have for adopting rape and the sexualized humiliation of men and women as an integral part of their operational counter-insurgency doctrine all over the territory administered by the Indian Republic, it is not surprising to consider the content and tenor of the outraged patriotic comments. They are merely the sophisticated discursive edge of the practical sledge-hammer operational doctrine often actually wielded by the custodians of the unity and integrity of the Indian state against those who are, as Liang and Menon, put it, simply 'disaffected'. Perhaps the repressed 'primal scene' that foreshadows the current surge of Indian nationalist indignation at the mere thought of losing Kashmir has some interesting dimensions that could do with some astute, and might I add, compassionate, pyschoanalytic investigation. An idle speculation - does any of this have to do with the unacknowledged incestuous relationship between sections of the (colonial) Government of India Act of 1935 and the (republican) Constitution of India of 1950, of which Section 124(A), which our patriots invoke with such intensity, is the fruit. They don't call it Mai-Baap Sarkar for nothing, do they? best Shuddha ----------------- 1. Sedition, The Highest Duty of A Citizen by Nivedita Menon, Kafila, October 26, 2010 Sedition: the attempt “to excite disaffection towards the Government established by law in India”, a crime under Section 124 A of the Indian Penal Code, a provision introduced by the British colonial government in 1860. The only revisions to this colonial legal provision since its passing have been over the years, to remove anachronistic terms like “Her Majesty”, “the Crown Representative”, “British India”, “British Burma” and “Transportation for life or any shorter term”. But it seems “Disaffection towards the government”, the archaic usage notwithstanding, is a timeless crime. Section 124A, therefore, these few cosmetic changes apart, has remained unchanged for the last 150 years. (That’s what we mean when we say we are an ancient civilization.) In 1922 Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi and Shankarlal Ghelabhai Banker, editor, and printer/publisher respectively of Young India, were tried under this section before the District and Sessions Judge, Ahmedabad. Pleading guilty to the charge, Gandhi said: “I have no desire whatsoever to conceal from this court the fact that to preach disaffection towards the existing system of Government has become almost a passion with me…” Sedition, said Gandhi, “in law is a deliberate crime”, but it “appears to me to be the highest duty of a citizen.” Today, almost a hundred years later, the government of “the world’s largest democracy” threatens to invoke this exact same colonial provision instituted to curb resistance to foreign rule, against a writer whose bright integrity has never faltered, and whose powerful voice has been consistently raised against injustice. Arundhati Roy is tragically right, we can but pity ourselves, citizens (so-called) of a nation “that has to silence its writers for speaking their minds… that needs to jail those who ask for justice, while communal killers, mass murderers, corporate scamsters, looters, rapists, and those who prey on the poorest of the poor, roam free.” Disaffection means “the absence or alienation of affection or goodwill; estrangement”. Does it look like there is a whole lot of goodwill towards the Government of India in Kashmir, which Roy has to work hard towards alienating? All over the North-East and Kashmir, reeling under the military jackboot of the draconian AFSPA, the Government of India is nothing but an occupying army, a spontaneous disaffection generator. A young Manipuri lecturer in Delhi University tells of sitting at a roadside dhaba in Imphal with a few friends, when a uniformed Indian Army officer passing by, stopped. Stand up, he barked. Sing the national anthem. They had barely begun, when he slapped one of them. Your accent is wrong, he said. Do it again. They did it again. No isolated incident this, but simply the routine humiliation of an occupied people. The Indian Nation rampant in all its pride and glory, generating affection. “Sedition” and “contempt of court” have no place in a modern democracy. No justification whatsoever for provisions that criminalize and silence dissent, critique and ethical challenges to the dominant order. These provisions are unconstitutional, anti- democratic and utterly intolerable. Sedition is no longer a criminal offence in Uganda after a recent High Court ruling, and the provision is being challenged in Malawi and also in Australia. (The last person prosecuted under Australia’s sedition laws was Brian Cooper, a patrol officer in Papua New Guinea, then under Australian colonial rule. He was charged and convicted in 1960 because “he advisedly spoke and published seditious words” when urging “the natives” to demand PNG’s independence from Australia.) If disaffection from the government is a crime, who would remain out of jail? Kashmiris, all of the North-East, populations dislocated by dams, corporations, Commonwealth Games, SEZ’s, tribal people in Niyamgiri, Chhattisgarh, farmers in Raigarh, Maoists… The people, said Bertold Brecht, have lost the confidence of the government. Therefore the government has decided to dissolve the people, and elect another. 2. The Restitution of the Conjugal Rights of the State, by Lawrence Liang, Kafila, October 27, 2010 Despite the many thoughtful critiques of the relationship between family and the state, I have always found it a little surprising that there is very little commentary on the relationship between two strange legal fictions. The first is the idea of the restitution of conjugal rights (RCR), and the other is sedition. The restitution of conjugal rights basically consists of the right of a spouse to demand that his or her- though more often his than her- spouse cohabit with him after she has ‘withdrawn from his society’. Away from the misty world of legal euphemisms, we all know what this means: that you can be forced to sleep with a somewhat less than pleasant person against your wishes. A legal commitment to love in a marriage is a serious thing indeed which only warns us that we must proceed with such a choice very carefully. But like many marriages, the question of choice is somewhat restricted for many people- as is indeed the case of the choice of loving your country. After all isn’t sedition a crime of passion, and the punishment of an offence of the withdrawal of love for your nation. It is interesting to see that while treason in Sec. 121 of the IPC is about the waging of war against the state, sedition is about a forced love. It is about the creation of ‘disaffection’. As Nivedita Menon points out in her post, disaffection means “the absence or alienation of affection or goodwill; estrangement”. A legal commitment to love your nation is also a serious thing indeed, and what then is the punishment of sedition if not, the restitution of the conjugal rights of the state? Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From shuddha at sarai.net Wed Oct 27 20:03:29 2010 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 20:03:29 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Statement by Arundhati Roy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Samvit, the only thing I (and I am sure there are others on this list who will agree with me) am in awe of is the depths of your misogyny. That you see it fit to comment in this manner about the personal lives of others only proves that you have absolutely no moral or ethical standards of your own. Something is deeply disturbing with the nationaist Indian obsession with matters of sexuality, attire, and personal life choices. Are you all in need of some prolonged courses of therapeutic treatment, or are you simply depraved individuals who use their exhibitinonist patriotic outrage as a cover for the darkest of fantasies. Wilhelm Reich in his investigations into the links between Fascism and Sexual Repression in Germany was maybe onto something that we need to start seriously thinking about in contemporary India. best Shuddha On 27-Oct-10, at 6:34 PM, Samvit wrote: > I think that she is an intellectual leftover. It is very surprising > that I find people of Sarai are raving about a woman who is > pardaoxically opposite to the leftist ideology. While the stories of > her promiscuity are legendary I would not talk about them as it would > be interfering in her personal life. However some years back I saw her > in the skimpiest clothing going to the most capitalistic gym anyone > can think of. > > Those who rave about her writing need to read more writers and they > would realize what talent Arundati has got. Also, it is "en vogue" to > write against India. The great India rope trick sells like hot cake. > Write a book that says elephants run on Indian roads and it sells like > hot cake in the "developed world". > It is the intellectual leftovers like her and Gautam Navlakha who call > India "a corporate Hindu state". It is pretty sad that people on this > forum are "in awe of her". > -Samvit > > On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 5:47 PM, Inder Salim > wrote: >> I guess people in India will read her only after she gets Nobel >> for literature. >> which she deserves >> >> >> love >> is >> >> >> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 3:14 PM, Rajkamal Goswami >> wrote: >>> Dear Aditya >>> >>> I am sure yo know about her fictional work 1 novel & 1 >>> screenplay. But >>> I am not sure if you have read her non-fictional work. Well she >>> didn't >>> win booker for them but she won the "Sydney Peace Prize" and the >>> "Sahitya Akademi award" which she politely refused. Her body of non >>> fiction work is far greater (both in volume and quality) than her >>> fictional work. I hope you have read her work. If not please read >>> atleast the essential Roy viz "The greater common good", the >>> "Algebra >>> of Infinite justice", "Come September", Do Turkeys Enjoy >>> Thanksgiving", "Peace is War", "Listening To Grasshoppers", >>> "Shall We >>> Leave It to the Experts?" and my favorite “The Ladies have feelings >>> so…” You should definitely read the last one because it answers >>> your >>> query about the very questions that you have raised. >>> >>> Regarding a fiction writer being political, well all writers are >>> political. That some chose to remain silent is also a political >>> activity. That Ms. Roy choses to write her politics and throw it >>> open >>> to ideas and criticism is the best thing I really like about her. >>> Besides she is also indulged in field activism, giving her voice to >>> the voiceless and rooting for real democracy. >>> >>> Thanks >>> r >>> >>> On 10/27/10, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: >>>> Are you the moderator? Just curious again. You indeed have a big >>>> hand. >>>> >>>> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 2:31 PM, Tapas Ray [Gmail] >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> ps: I mean, to Aditya. >>>>> >>>>> On 27 October 2010 14:30, Tapas Ray [Gmail] >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> Really intelligent comment. Let's give him a big hand! >>>>>> >>>>>> On 27 October 2010 14:23, Aditya Raj Kaul >>>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> Isn't she a Fiction writer? Or is she really a writer? Just >>>>>>> curious. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 2:01 PM, Rajkamal Goswami < >>>>> rajkamalgoswami at gmail.com >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I am just in awe of this woman. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 10/27/10, Tapas Ray [Gmail] wrote: >>>>>>>>> Pheeta, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> No problem, and no need to apologise! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Tapas >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 27 October 2010 09:07, Pheeta Ram >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Dear Tapas >>>>>>>>>> Actually the statement was sent to me by somebody. I >>>>>>>>>> forgot to >>>>>>>>>> check >>>>> if >>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>> had already been published online; that's why there was no >>>>>>>>>> link. >>>>> Thanks >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> reminding me the etiquettes of responsible online publishing. >>>>>>>>>> I shall take care next time. >>>>>>>>>> Pheeta Ram >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 6:42 AM, Tapas Ray [Gmail] < >>>>> tapasrayx at gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Pheeta, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for this. I think it would be good if we gave the >>>>>>>>>>> links >>>>> along >>>>>>>>>>> with any material from online sources that we might be >>>>>>>>>>> posting. >>>>> This >>>>>>>>>>> one's is >>>>>>>>>>> < >>>>>>>> >>>>> http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/arundhati-roys-statement-on- >>>>> possible-sedition-case-62566 >>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>>> As for offline sources (e.g., printed books, etc.), a >>>>>>>>>>> mention of >>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> source, as complete as possible, would be very helpful. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks again. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Tapas >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 27 October 2010 02:10, Pheeta Ram >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> STATEMENT BY ARUNDHATI ROY >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I write this from Srinagar, Kashmir. This morning’s >>>>>>>>>>>> papers say >>>>> that I >>>>>>>>>>>> may be arrested on charges of sedition for what I have >>>>>>>>>>>> said at >>>>> recent >>>>>>>>>>>> public meetings on Kashmir. I said what millions of >>>>>>>>>>>> people here >>>>> say >>>>>>>>>>>> every day. I said what I, as well as other commentators >>>>>>>>>>>> have >>>>> written >>>>>>>>>>>> and said for years. Anybody who cares to read the >>>>>>>>>>>> transcripts of >>>>> my >>>>>>>>>>>> speeches will see that they were fundamentally a call for >>>>> justice. I >>>>>>>>>>>> spoke about justice for the people of Kashmir who live >>>>>>>>>>>> under one >>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> the most brutal military occupations in the world; for >>>>>>>>>>>> Kashmiri >>>>>>>>>>>> Pandits who live out the tragedy of having been driven >>>>>>>>>>>> out of >>>>> their >>>>>>>>>>>> homeland; for Dalit soldiers killed in Kashmir whose >>>>>>>>>>>> graves I >>>>> visited >>>>>>>>>>>> on garbage heaps in their villages in Cuddalore; for the >>>>>>>>>>>> Indian >>>>> poor >>>>>>>>>>>> who pay the price of this occupation in material ways >>>>>>>>>>>> and who >>>>>>>>>>>> are >>>>> now >>>>>>>>>>>> learning to live in the terror of what is becoming a police >>>>> state. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Yesterday I traveled to Shopian, the apple-town in South >>>>>>>>>>>> Kashmir >>>>>>>> which >>>>>>>>>>>> had remained closed for 47 days last year in protest >>>>>>>>>>>> against the >>>>>>>>>>>> brutal rape and murder of Asiya and Nilofer, the young >>>>>>>>>>>> women >>>>> whose >>>>>>>>>>>> bodies were found in a shallow stream near their homes >>>>>>>>>>>> and whose >>>>>>>>>>>> murderers have still not been brought to justice. I met >>>>>>>>>>>> Shakeel, >>>>> who >>>>>>>>>>>> is Nilofer’s husband and Asiya’s brother. We sat in a >>>>>>>>>>>> circle of >>>>>>>>>>>> people crazed with grief and anger who had lost hope >>>>>>>>>>>> that they >>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>>> ever get ‘insaf’—justice—from India, and now believed that >>>>>>>>>>>> Azadi—freedom— was their only hope. I met young stone >>>>>>>>>>>> pelters >>>>>>>>>>>> who >>>>> had >>>>>>>>>>>> been shot through their eyes. I traveled with a young >>>>>>>>>>>> man who >>>>> told me >>>>>>>>>>>> how three of his friends, teenagers in Anantnag >>>>>>>>>>>> district, had >>>>> been >>>>>>>>>>>> taken into custody and had their finger-nails pulled out as >>>>>>>> punishment >>>>>>>>>>>> for throwing stones. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> In the papers some have accused me of giving ‘hate- >>>>>>>>>>>> speeches’, of >>>>>>>>>>>> wanting India to break up. On the contrary, what I say >>>>>>>>>>>> comes >>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>> love >>>>>>>>>>>> and pride. It comes from not wanting people to be >>>>>>>>>>>> killed, raped, >>>>>>>>>>>> imprisoned or have their finger-nails pulled out in >>>>>>>>>>>> order to >>>>> force >>>>>>>>>>>> them to say they are Indians. It comes from wanting to >>>>>>>>>>>> live in a >>>>>>>>>>>> society that is striving to be a just one. Pity the >>>>>>>>>>>> nation that >>>>> has >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>> silence its writers for speaking their minds. Pity the >>>>>>>>>>>> nation >>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>> needs to jail those who ask for justice, while communal >>>>>>>>>>>> killers, >>>>> mass >>>>>>>>>>>> murderers, corporate scamsters, looters, rapists, and >>>>>>>>>>>> those who >>>>> prey >>>>>>>>>>>> on the poorest of the poor, roam free. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Arundhati Roy >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> October 26 2010 >>>>>>>>>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>>>>>>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list- >>>>>>>>>>>> request at sarai.netwith >>>>>>>>>>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe: >>>>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>>>>>>>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/ >>>>>>>>>>>> reader-list/> >>>>>>>>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>>>>>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list- >>>>>>>>>>> request at sarai.net with >>>>>>>>>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe: >>>>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>>>>>>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader- >>>>>>>>>>> list/> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>>>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>>>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list- >>>>>>>>> request at sarai.net with >>>>>>>> subscribe >>>>>>>>> in the subject header. >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/ >>>>>>>>> reader-list >>>>>>>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader- >>>>>>>>> list/> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Rajkamal >>>>>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/ >>>>>>>> reader-list >>>>>>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader- >>>>>>>> list/> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >>>>>>> with >>>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/ >>>>>>> reader-list >>>>>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>>> >>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- >>>>> list >>>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>> >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >>>> with subscribe >>>> in the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Rajkamal >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > Samvit Rawal > 9422037853 > ----------------------------------------------------------- > To err is human; to forgive, infrequent. > - Franklin P. Adams > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Wed Oct 27 20:44:10 2010 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 20:44:10 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] An open letter to Arundhati Roy Message-ID: An open letter to Arundhati Roy October 27, 2010 by Pagal Patrakar Link - http://blog.fakingnews.com/2010/10/an-open-letter-to-arundhati-roy/ Hey woman, Congrats, you are back in news! You were trending on Twitter and featured in Google trends. And thanks, you made many guys look up dictionary.com to understand what sedition meant. You are really of some use! Well, I read your statement, and I loved it because it was not a fucking 30,000 words essay! Anyway, I had some reactions, please find them below (in bold and in red, adjectives that you prefer?): Kashmir, Oct. 26:* *I write this from Srinagar, Kashmir. *(Wonderful, you are going places woman, wished you had cared to write something from Bihar or UP; people are suffering due to neglect and bad politics there too, but wait, stay where you are.)* This morning’s papers say that I may be arrested on charges of sedition for what I have said at recent public meetings on Kashmir. *(LOL! You read and believe newspapers? But I guess that’s what you do when you wake up in the morning – take up a newspaper and find if your name appears anywhere. If not, you plan how it can.)* I said what millions of people here say every day. *(Millions of people say benc**d in India every day, that doesn’t sanction that term any “social acceptance”)* I said what I, as well as other commentators, have written and said for years. *(Absolutely, you have NEVER said or written anything NEW. You just pick up issues, after reading the morning newspapers, and join the bandwagon.)*Anybody who cares to read the transcripts of my speeches will see that they were fundamentally a call for justice. *(Sorry, I didn’t really care to read the transcript of your speeches. Can you make them a bit shorter? I’ve an attention span problem.)* I spoke about justice for the people of Kashmir who live under one of the most brutal military occupations in the world; *(Oh, Kashmir is an area under military occupation? Thanks, will update my general knowledge and Wikimapia, but wait, how come you were allowed there? Don’t all democratic rights cease to exist in an area under military occupation? Or were you an “embedded activist” like those embedded journalists of CNN in Iraq during the Gulf War?)* for Kashmiri Pandits who live out the tragedy of having been driven out of their homeland; *(Really? Or are you fucking kidding me?)* for Dalit soldiers killed in Kashmir whose graves I visited on garbage heaps in their villages in Cuddalore; *(What the fuck is a “Dalit soldier” with a “grave”? I thought Dalits existed only within Hinduism and Sikhism, where there are no graves. Oh okay, next you are writing a 300,000 essay on why Dalits are neither Hindu/Sikh/Christian/Muslim nor Indian, and why the need justice and liberty from the tyrannous Brahminical Indian state?)* for the Indian poor who pay the price of this occupation in material ways and who are now learning to live in the terror of what is becoming a police state. *(Oh great, so this whole country is under some kind of occupation – police state – what the fuck, you opened my eyes, where is the red flag?)* Yesterday I traveled to Shopian, the apple-town in South Kashmir which had remained closed for 47 days last year in protest against the brutal rape and murder of Asiya and Nilofer, the young women whose bodies were found in a shallow stream near their homes and whose murderers have still not been brought to justice. *(Yes, “last year”, and you are visiting the place “now” because your heart bleeds for a common Kashmiri.) * I met Shakeel, who is Nilofer’s husband and Asiya’s brother. *(Wait a minute; you were also in Delhi a couple of weeks back. Did you meet any Kashmiri Pandit, for whom you claimed to be seeking justice in the earlier paragraph?)* We sat in a circle of people crazed with grief and anger who had lost hope that they would ever get insaf — justice — from India, and now believed that Azadi — freedom — was their only hope. *(Have you seen the Bollywood movie Gulaal? You can sit in such circles almost in each part of this country and listen to cries of Azadi from imagined powers. There are Brahmins in this country, whom you think control everything, who feel “trapped” in the modern state that is implementing reservations for everyone except them.)* I met young stone pelters who had been shot through their eyes. *(Did you meet that Indian policeman who lost his eye after a 5 kg stone hit his eye?) * I traveled with a young man who told me how three of his friends, teenagers in Anantnag district, had been taken into custody and had their finger-nails pulled out as punishment for throwing stones. *(I once traveled with a Hindu in Ahmedabad, who told me how Muslims had created an “acid pool” in “their area” and used to throw Hindus in them during riots; there have been many riots in Ahmedabad, not just during 2002, for your kind information. Of course I didn’t believe him and went out to write an essay or even a fake news article. I don’t believe people easily and form opinions. If the state can’t be trusted blindly, that doesn’t mean I’d trust every other non-state actor blindly. Oh, non-state actor!)* In the papers some have accused me of giving ‘hate-speeches’, of wanting India to break up. *(Yes, there are idiots who take you seriously.)* On the contrary, what I say comes from love and pride. *(ROFLMAO!)* It comes from not wanting people to be killed, raped, imprisoned or have their finger-nails pulled out in order to force them to say they are Indians. *(But you are fine and your conscience is not disturbed if someone does the same to people and force them to say that they are NOT Indians?)* It comes from wanting to live in a society that is striving to be a just one. *(“just” one or “just one”? People like you are surely not going to let this society be “just one”. It would be broken into Dalits, Tribals, Muslims, Brahmins, Christians, Poor, Rich, Women, etc. I want my society and country to be “just one” for god’s sake!)* Pity the nation that has to silence its writers for speaking their minds. *(Yes, yes, pity the nation that produces such writers. Today I’m proud of Chetan Bhagat, seriously.)* Pity the nation that needs to jail those who ask for justice, while communal killers, mass murderers, corporate scamsters, looters, rapists, and those who prey on the poorest of the poor, roam free. *(Yes, I’d pity the nation only if you were “actually” jailed, and you won’t be, dear, because this is a country that doesn’t need your pity.)* From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Wed Oct 27 20:54:59 2010 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 20:54:59 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Statement by Arundhati Roy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: *Very well put by actor Anupam Kher on twitter. **Kher writes - Father called from Simla, "Arundhati Roy is innocent."**"As a Kashmiri how can you say that?"**"A person who has lost her\her mind is innocent. :) * On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 8:03 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > Samvit, > > the only thing I (and I am sure there are others on this list who will > agree with me) am in awe of is the depths of your misogyny. That you see it > fit to comment in this manner about the personal lives of others only proves > that you have absolutely no moral or ethical standards of your own. > Something is deeply disturbing with the nationaist Indian obsession with > matters of sexuality, attire, and personal life choices. Are you all in need > of some prolonged courses of therapeutic treatment, or are you simply > depraved individuals who use their exhibitinonist patriotic outrage as a > cover for the darkest of fantasies. Wilhelm Reich in his investigations into > the links between Fascism and Sexual Repression in Germany was maybe onto > something that we need to start seriously thinking about in contemporary > India. > > best > > Shuddha > > > > On 27-Oct-10, at 6:34 PM, Samvit wrote: > > I think that she is an intellectual leftover. It is very surprising >> that I find people of Sarai are raving about a woman who is >> pardaoxically opposite to the leftist ideology. While the stories of >> her promiscuity are legendary I would not talk about them as it would >> be interfering in her personal life. However some years back I saw her >> in the skimpiest clothing going to the most capitalistic gym anyone >> can think of. >> >> Those who rave about her writing need to read more writers and they >> would realize what talent Arundati has got. Also, it is "en vogue" to >> write against India. The great India rope trick sells like hot cake. >> Write a book that says elephants run on Indian roads and it sells like >> hot cake in the "developed world". >> It is the intellectual leftovers like her and Gautam Navlakha who call >> India "a corporate Hindu state". It is pretty sad that people on this >> forum are "in awe of her". >> -Samvit >> >> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 5:47 PM, Inder Salim >> wrote: >> >>> I guess people in India will read her only after she gets Nobel for >>> literature. >>> which she deserves >>> >>> >>> love >>> is >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 3:14 PM, Rajkamal Goswami >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Dear Aditya >>>> >>>> I am sure yo know about her fictional work 1 novel & 1 screenplay. But >>>> I am not sure if you have read her non-fictional work. Well she didn't >>>> win booker for them but she won the "Sydney Peace Prize" and the >>>> "Sahitya Akademi award" which she politely refused. Her body of non >>>> fiction work is far greater (both in volume and quality) than her >>>> fictional work. I hope you have read her work. If not please read >>>> atleast the essential Roy viz "The greater common good", the "Algebra >>>> of Infinite justice", "Come September", Do Turkeys Enjoy >>>> Thanksgiving", "Peace is War", "Listening To Grasshoppers", "Shall We >>>> Leave It to the Experts?" and my favorite “The Ladies have feelings >>>> so…” You should definitely read the last one because it answers your >>>> query about the very questions that you have raised. >>>> >>>> Regarding a fiction writer being political, well all writers are >>>> political. That some chose to remain silent is also a political >>>> activity. That Ms. Roy choses to write her politics and throw it open >>>> to ideas and criticism is the best thing I really like about her. >>>> Besides she is also indulged in field activism, giving her voice to >>>> the voiceless and rooting for real democracy. >>>> >>>> Thanks >>>> r >>>> >>>> On 10/27/10, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: >>>> >>>>> Are you the moderator? Just curious again. You indeed have a big hand. >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 2:31 PM, Tapas Ray [Gmail] >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> ps: I mean, to Aditya. >>>>>> >>>>>> On 27 October 2010 14:30, Tapas Ray [Gmail] >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Really intelligent comment. Let's give him a big hand! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 27 October 2010 14:23, Aditya Raj Kaul >>>>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Isn't she a Fiction writer? Or is she really a writer? Just curious. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 2:01 PM, Rajkamal Goswami < >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> rajkamalgoswami at gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I am just in awe of this woman. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 10/27/10, Tapas Ray [Gmail] wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Pheeta, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> No problem, and no need to apologise! >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Tapas >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 27 October 2010 09:07, Pheeta Ram >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Dear Tapas >>>>>>>>>>> Actually the statement was sent to me by somebody. I forgot to >>>>>>>>>>> check >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> if >>>>>> >>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> had already been published online; that's why there was no link. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Thanks >>>>>> >>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> reminding me the etiquettes of responsible online publishing. >>>>>>>>>>> I shall take care next time. >>>>>>>>>>> Pheeta Ram >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 6:42 AM, Tapas Ray [Gmail] < >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> tapasrayx at gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Pheeta, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for this. I think it would be good if we gave the links >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> along >>>>>> >>>>>>> with any material from online sources that we might be posting. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> This >>>>>> >>>>>>> one's is >>>>>>>>>>>> < >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/arundhati-roys-statement-on-possible-sedition-case-62566 >>>>>> >>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> As for offline sources (e.g., printed books, etc.), a mention of >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>> >>>>>>> source, as complete as possible, would be very helpful. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks again. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Tapas >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 27 October 2010 02:10, Pheeta Ram >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> STATEMENT BY ARUNDHATI ROY >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I write this from Srinagar, Kashmir. This morning’s papers say >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> that I >>>>>> >>>>>>> may be arrested on charges of sedition for what I have said at >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> recent >>>>>> >>>>>>> public meetings on Kashmir. I said what millions of people here >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> say >>>>>> >>>>>>> every day. I said what I, as well as other commentators have >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> written >>>>>> >>>>>>> and said for years. Anybody who cares to read the transcripts of >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> my >>>>>> >>>>>>> speeches will see that they were fundamentally a call for >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> justice. I >>>>>> >>>>>>> spoke about justice for the people of Kashmir who live under one >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>> >>>>>>> the most brutal military occupations in the world; for Kashmiri >>>>>>>>>>>>> Pandits who live out the tragedy of having been driven out of >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> their >>>>>> >>>>>>> homeland; for Dalit soldiers killed in Kashmir whose graves I >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> visited >>>>>> >>>>>>> on garbage heaps in their villages in Cuddalore; for the Indian >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> poor >>>>>> >>>>>>> who pay the price of this occupation in material ways and who >>>>>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> now >>>>>> >>>>>>> learning to live in the terror of what is becoming a police >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> state. >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Yesterday I traveled to Shopian, the apple-town in South >>>>>>>>>>>>> Kashmir >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> which >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> had remained closed for 47 days last year in protest against the >>>>>>>>>>>>> brutal rape and murder of Asiya and Nilofer, the young women >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> whose >>>>>> >>>>>>> bodies were found in a shallow stream near their homes and whose >>>>>>>>>>>>> murderers have still not been brought to justice. I met >>>>>>>>>>>>> Shakeel, >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> who >>>>>> >>>>>>> is Nilofer’s husband and Asiya’s brother. We sat in a circle of >>>>>>>>>>>>> people crazed with grief and anger who had lost hope that they >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>> >>>>>>> ever get ‘insaf’—justice—from India, and now believed that >>>>>>>>>>>>> Azadi—freedom— was their only hope. I met young stone pelters >>>>>>>>>>>>> who >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> had >>>>>> >>>>>>> been shot through their eyes. I traveled with a young man who >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> told me >>>>>> >>>>>>> how three of his friends, teenagers in Anantnag district, had >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> been >>>>>> >>>>>>> taken into custody and had their finger-nails pulled out as >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> punishment >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> for throwing stones. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> In the papers some have accused me of giving ‘hate-speeches’, >>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>> wanting India to break up. On the contrary, what I say comes >>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> love >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> and pride. It comes from not wanting people to be killed, raped, >>>>>>>>>>>>> imprisoned or have their finger-nails pulled out in order to >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> force >>>>>> >>>>>>> them to say they are Indians. It comes from wanting to live in a >>>>>>>>>>>>> society that is striving to be a just one. Pity the nation that >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> has >>>>>> >>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> silence its writers for speaking their minds. Pity the nation >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>> >>>>>>> needs to jail those who ask for justice, while communal killers, >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> mass >>>>>> >>>>>>> murderers, corporate scamsters, looters, rapists, and those who >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> prey >>>>>> >>>>>>> on the poorest of the poor, roam free. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Arundhati Roy >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> October 26 2010 >>>>>>>>>>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe: send an email to >>>>>>>>>>>>> reader-list-request at sarai.netwith >>>>>>>>>>>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>>> >>>>>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>>>>>>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith >>>>>>>>>>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>>> >>>>>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>>>>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>>>>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> subscribe >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> in the subject header. >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe: >>>>>>>>>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>>>>>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Rajkamal >>>>>>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>>>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>>>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>>>>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe: >>>>>>>>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>>>>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>>>> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>>>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>>> >>>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>> subscribe >>>>> in the subject header. >>>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Rajkamal >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> http://indersalim.livejournal.com >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Samvit Rawal >> 9422037853 >> ----------------------------------------------------------- >> To err is human; to forgive, infrequent. >> - Franklin P. Adams >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From sen.jhuma at gmail.com Wed Oct 27 23:14:56 2010 From: sen.jhuma at gmail.com (Jhuma Sen) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 10:44:56 -0700 Subject: [Reader-list] Statement by Arundhati Roy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Samvit, Your posts smack of a misplaced sexist arrogance. I have a pet theory--that it is a double tragedy for Roy. She is at the receiving ends of such abuse from the self proclaimed sons of the soil as your kind because first, she speaks up against the atrocities of a 'shining India' , exposes the hypocrisy of it, shows the true nature of a banana state and second, she is a woman. Your kind will probably appreciate this - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjxY9rZwNGU I think you again corroborated my theory. Best Jhuma On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 6:04 AM, Samvit wrote: > I think that she is an intellectual leftover. It is very surprising > that I find people of Sarai are raving about a woman who is > pardaoxically opposite to the leftist ideology. While the stories of > her promiscuity are legendary I would not talk about them as it would > be interfering in her personal life. However some years back I saw her > in the skimpiest clothing going to the most capitalistic gym anyone > can think of. > > Those who rave about her writing need to read more writers and they > would realize what talent Arundati has got. Also, it is "en vogue" to > write against India. The great India rope trick sells like hot cake. > Write a book that says elephants run on Indian roads and it sells like > hot cake in the "developed world". > It is the intellectual leftovers like her and Gautam Navlakha who call > India "a corporate Hindu state". It is pretty sad that people on this > forum are "in awe of her". > -Samvit > > On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 5:47 PM, Inder Salim wrote: > > I guess people in India will read her only after she gets Nobel for > literature. > > which she deserves > > > > > > love > > is > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 3:14 PM, Rajkamal Goswami > > wrote: > >> Dear Aditya > >> > >> I am sure yo know about her fictional work 1 novel & 1 screenplay. But > >> I am not sure if you have read her non-fictional work. Well she didn't > >> win booker for them but she won the "Sydney Peace Prize" and the > >> "Sahitya Akademi award" which she politely refused. Her body of non > >> fiction work is far greater (both in volume and quality) than her > >> fictional work. I hope you have read her work. If not please read > >> atleast the essential Roy viz "The greater common good", the "Algebra > >> of Infinite justice", "Come September", Do Turkeys Enjoy > >> Thanksgiving", "Peace is War", "Listening To Grasshoppers", "Shall We > >> Leave It to the Experts?" and my favorite “The Ladies have feelings > >> so…” You should definitely read the last one because it answers your > >> query about the very questions that you have raised. > >> > >> Regarding a fiction writer being political, well all writers are > >> political. That some chose to remain silent is also a political > >> activity. That Ms. Roy choses to write her politics and throw it open > >> to ideas and criticism is the best thing I really like about her. > >> Besides she is also indulged in field activism, giving her voice to > >> the voiceless and rooting for real democracy. > >> > >> Thanks > >> r > >> > >> On 10/27/10, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > >>> Are you the moderator? Just curious again. You indeed have a big hand. > >>> > >>> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 2:31 PM, Tapas Ray [Gmail] > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> ps: I mean, to Aditya. > >>>> > >>>> On 27 October 2010 14:30, Tapas Ray [Gmail] > wrote: > >>>> > Really intelligent comment. Let's give him a big hand! > >>>> > > >>>> > On 27 October 2010 14:23, Aditya Raj Kaul > >>>> wrote: > >>>> >> Isn't she a Fiction writer? Or is she really a writer? Just > curious. > >>>> >> > >>>> >> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 2:01 PM, Rajkamal Goswami < > >>>> rajkamalgoswami at gmail.com > >>>> >>> wrote: > >>>> >> > >>>> >>> I am just in awe of this woman. > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> On 10/27/10, Tapas Ray [Gmail] wrote: > >>>> >>> > Pheeta, > >>>> >>> > > >>>> >>> > No problem, and no need to apologise! > >>>> >>> > > >>>> >>> > Best, > >>>> >>> > > >>>> >>> > Tapas > >>>> >>> > > >>>> >>> > On 27 October 2010 09:07, Pheeta Ram > wrote: > >>>> >>> >> Dear Tapas > >>>> >>> >> Actually the statement was sent to me by somebody. I forgot to > >>>> >>> >> check > >>>> if > >>>> >>> it > >>>> >>> >> had already been published online; that's why there was no > link. > >>>> Thanks > >>>> >>> >> for > >>>> >>> >> reminding me the etiquettes of responsible online publishing. > >>>> >>> >> I shall take care next time. > >>>> >>> >> Pheeta Ram > >>>> >>> >> > >>>> >>> >> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 6:42 AM, Tapas Ray [Gmail] < > >>>> tapasrayx at gmail.com > >>>> >>> > > >>>> >>> >> wrote: > >>>> >>> >>> > >>>> >>> >>> Pheeta, > >>>> >>> >>> > >>>> >>> >>> Thanks for this. I think it would be good if we gave the links > >>>> along > >>>> >>> >>> with any material from online sources that we might be > posting. > >>>> This > >>>> >>> >>> one's is > >>>> >>> >>> < > >>>> >>> > >>>> > http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/arundhati-roys-statement-on-possible-sedition-case-62566 > >>>> >>> >. > >>>> >>> >>> As for offline sources (e.g., printed books, etc.), a mention > of > >>>> the > >>>> >>> >>> source, as complete as possible, would be very helpful. > >>>> >>> >>> > >>>> >>> >>> Thanks again. > >>>> >>> >>> > >>>> >>> >>> Tapas > >>>> >>> >>> > >>>> >>> >>> > >>>> >>> >>> On 27 October 2010 02:10, Pheeta Ram > wrote: > >>>> >>> >>> > STATEMENT BY ARUNDHATI ROY > >>>> >>> >>> > > >>>> >>> >>> > I write this from Srinagar, Kashmir. This morning’s papers > say > >>>> that I > >>>> >>> >>> > may be arrested on charges of sedition for what I have said > at > >>>> recent > >>>> >>> >>> > public meetings on Kashmir. I said what millions of people > here > >>>> say > >>>> >>> >>> > every day. I said what I, as well as other commentators have > >>>> written > >>>> >>> >>> > and said for years. Anybody who cares to read the > transcripts of > >>>> my > >>>> >>> >>> > speeches will see that they were fundamentally a call for > >>>> justice. I > >>>> >>> >>> > spoke about justice for the people of Kashmir who live under > one > >>>> of > >>>> >>> >>> > the most brutal military occupations in the world; for > Kashmiri > >>>> >>> >>> > Pandits who live out the tragedy of having been driven out > of > >>>> their > >>>> >>> >>> > homeland; for Dalit soldiers killed in Kashmir whose graves > I > >>>> visited > >>>> >>> >>> > on garbage heaps in their villages in Cuddalore; for the > Indian > >>>> poor > >>>> >>> >>> > who pay the price of this occupation in material ways and > who > >>>> >>> >>> > are > >>>> now > >>>> >>> >>> > learning to live in the terror of what is becoming a police > >>>> state. > >>>> >>> >>> > > >>>> >>> >>> > Yesterday I traveled to Shopian, the apple-town in South > Kashmir > >>>> >>> which > >>>> >>> >>> > had remained closed for 47 days last year in protest against > the > >>>> >>> >>> > brutal rape and murder of Asiya and Nilofer, the young women > >>>> whose > >>>> >>> >>> > bodies were found in a shallow stream near their homes and > whose > >>>> >>> >>> > murderers have still not been brought to justice. I met > Shakeel, > >>>> who > >>>> >>> >>> > is Nilofer’s husband and Asiya’s brother. We sat in a > circle of > >>>> >>> >>> > people crazed with grief and anger who had lost hope that > they > >>>> would > >>>> >>> >>> > ever get ‘insaf’—justice—from India, and now believed that > >>>> >>> >>> > Azadi—freedom— was their only hope. I met young stone > pelters > >>>> >>> >>> > who > >>>> had > >>>> >>> >>> > been shot through their eyes. I traveled with a young man > who > >>>> told me > >>>> >>> >>> > how three of his friends, teenagers in Anantnag district, > had > >>>> been > >>>> >>> >>> > taken into custody and had their finger-nails pulled out as > >>>> >>> punishment > >>>> >>> >>> > for throwing stones. > >>>> >>> >>> > > >>>> >>> >>> > In the papers some have accused me of giving > ‘hate-speeches’, of > >>>> >>> >>> > wanting India to break up. On the contrary, what I say comes > >>>> >>> >>> > from > >>>> >>> love > >>>> >>> >>> > and pride. It comes from not wanting people to be killed, > raped, > >>>> >>> >>> > imprisoned or have their finger-nails pulled out in order to > >>>> force > >>>> >>> >>> > them to say they are Indians. It comes from wanting to live > in a > >>>> >>> >>> > society that is striving to be a just one. Pity the nation > that > >>>> has > >>>> >>> to > >>>> >>> >>> > silence its writers for speaking their minds. Pity the > nation > >>>> that > >>>> >>> >>> > needs to jail those who ask for justice, while communal > killers, > >>>> mass > >>>> >>> >>> > murderers, corporate scamsters, looters, rapists, and those > who > >>>> prey > >>>> >>> >>> > on the poorest of the poor, roam free. > >>>> >>> >>> > > >>>> >>> >>> > Arundhati Roy > >>>> >>> >>> > > >>>> >>> >>> > October 26 2010 > >>>> >>> >>> > _________________________________________ > >>>> >>> >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>>> >>> >>> > Critiques & Collaborations > >>>> >>> >>> > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > >>>> >>> >>> > subscribe in the subject header. > >>>> >>> >>> > To unsubscribe: > >>>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>>> >>> >>> > List archive: < > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >>>> >>> >>> _________________________________________ > >>>> >>> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>>> >>> >>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>>> >>> >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > >>>> >>> >>> subscribe in the subject header. > >>>> >>> >>> To unsubscribe: > >>>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>>> >>> >>> List archive: < > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >>>> >>> >> > >>>> >>> > _________________________________________ > >>>> >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>>> >>> > Critiques & Collaborations > >>>> >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > >>>> >>> subscribe > >>>> >>> > in the subject header. > >>>> >>> > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>>> >>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/ > > > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> -- > >>>> >>> Rajkamal > >>>> >>> _________________________________________ > >>>> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>>> >>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>>> >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>>> >>> subscribe in the subject header. > >>>> >>> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>>> >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >>>> >>> > >>>> >> _________________________________________ > >>>> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>>> >> Critiques & Collaborations > >>>> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>>> subscribe in the subject header. > >>>> >> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>>> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >>>> > > >>>> _________________________________________ > >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>>> subscribe in the subject header. > >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >>>> > >>> _________________________________________ > >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe > >>> in the subject header. > >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Rajkamal > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > -- > > > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > Samvit Rawal > 9422037853 > ----------------------------------------------------------- > To err is human; to forgive, infrequent. > - Franklin P. Adams > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From shuddha at sarai.net Thu Oct 28 01:31:28 2010 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 01:31:28 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Barun Das Gupta in Kafila on Sedition Provision Gagging Free Speech Message-ID: <3A559A9D-F627-4D02-AB23-1BC0F04DD87D@sarai.net> Dear all, Here is an other excellent analysis of the Section 124 (The Sedition Law) and its implications for Free Speech. By Barun Dasgupta (Guest Post on Kafila.org) best, Shuddha ------- Sedition Provision Gags Free Speech, by Barun Das Gupta, posted on Kafila.org http://kafila.org/2010/10/26/sedition-provision-gags-free-speechbarun- das-gupta/ The detractors of Arundhati Roy have found a fresh casus belli against her for her recent speech (Oct. 21) in New Delhi, on Kashmir. The participants in the polemics include such intellectuals as Swapan Dasgupta, a journalist and a BJP leader. The burden of their criticism is that Arundhati should be arrested for sedition because by her speeches she has caused hatred and disaffection towards the Government and actually championed the secession of a part of India, that is, Jammu and Kashmir. Let us examine this matter of “creating hatred and disaffection” towards the Government, not from the legal point of view but from the political point of view. Section 124A of the Indian Penal Code says: “Whoever brings or attempts to bring in hatred, contempt or excites disaffection towards the Government shall be punished ……” Before proceeding further, let us note that the concerned section speaks of “disaffection towards the Government”, without specifying whether by “Government” the Central Government is meant or the State Governments. Since there is no explanation, it may be inferred that “Government” means both Central and State Governments. Now, going by the letter of Sec. 124A of IPC, any speech or writing or action that brings in “hatred, contempt or disaffection” towards the Government, attracts the provision of this Section and becomes punishable. Let us try to understand the political implications of this Section. Someone delivers a speech or writes an article against the POSCO project in Orissa and alleges that the Government is surrnedering the interests of the people to satisfy the profict motive of industrialists (whether indigenous or foreign) and that the project must be opposed. His speech/writing causes “hatred” of the people against the Government and holds the Government in “contempt” and therefore he becomes liable to prosecution (and conviction) under the law. Or suppose someone speaks or writes against the projects of “industrial development” being taken up and/or implemented by the Government of West Bengal, like the steel factory project of the Jindals in Medinipur district, uprooting and displacing thousands of adivasis from the lands. He attracts Section 124A. And if he or she organizes and/or leads a mass movement against the project, then he/ she only further compounds his/her offence. The same goes for anyone anywhere in India who may be opposing the eviction drive of the Government in the adivasi areas all over the country. If someone were to say that the Government’s motive behind the large-scale eviction of the adivasis is to hand over their land so that the rich mineral wealth lying buried in their land can be exploited to swell the profits of the monopolists and multationals, he brings the Government into contempts and therefore commits sedition. So, if Sec. 124A is taken literally, it will put an end to all criticism of the Government, all mass movements against it. It will change the character of the Indian polity as enshrined in the Preamble to the Consitution that ours is a sovereign, democratic Republic where ultimate power lies in the people. India will cease to be a democratic polity and thereby the “basic sructure of the Constitution” will be is changed. But the Supreme Court has already given its verdict that the basic structure of the Constitution cannot be changed and any law which seeks to do that is ultra vires of the Constitution and therefore void ab initio. If the official interpretation of the scope of Sec.124A is accepted, India will cease to be a democracy and become a totalitarian State, whether of the CPI- M brand, or of the BJP-RSS brand. Therefore, this whole gamut of issues – no less political than legal – has to be brought under the scanner and analysed in a larger perspective. Secondly, the issue of secession, so dear to the hearts of the self- styled patriots. Secession from India, or anything that overtly or covertly supports secession, we are told, is an unpardonable act of treason that should be punished by the eternal banishment of the traitor to Hell (or ananta narakvaas). Really ? Let us go back into past history, more than half a century ago – on September 10 1958, to be precise. On that day the Prime Minister of India, Jawaharlal Nehru, signed an accord with the then Prime Minister of Pakistan, Feroze Khan Noon, which came to be known as the Nehru-Noon Pact. Under the terms of the treaty, India agreed to cede to (East) Pakistan a rich and fertile tract of West Bengal, named Birubari, situated in North Bengal. The land was not only fertile but several lakh East Pakistani refugees had been settled on it. Nehru took the decision to hand over Birubari to Pakistan without the consent of the Government of West Bengal, run by his own Congress Party. The news created a wave of anger and resentment all over West Bengal. The resentment snowballed into a powerful mass movement. Ultimately the people foiled the attempt to cede Birubari to (East) Pakistan. Nehru became the target of trenchant criticism but the charge of sedition was never hurled at him. Let us go further back into history – to 1951. The Assam Legislative Assembly passed a piece of legislation called the Assam (Alteration of Boundaries) Act, 1951, (Act 47 of 1951) under which 32.81 square miles of land in Assam’s Kamrup district was ceded to Bhutan. Nobody called it a treasonable action or the legislation a treasonable Act. These instant patriots are perhaps blissfully ignorant of the fact that for decades, a separatist movement has been going on in Wales in the extreme west of England. The separatist movement is led by the Welsh Nationalist Party and its avowed aim is the secession of Wales from the United Kingdom. There is no witch-hunt against them and no suppression of their movement for openly preaching secession. As a democratic country, Britain takes such demands and such movements in its stride. One of the charges that the CPI-M is frequently hurling at the Maoists is that they are anti-State. Well, well, well. The Communist Party of India (Marxist) is supposed to be both communist and Marxist. (The nomenclature suggests as if Marxism and communism were two mutually exclusive political categories and a Marxist need not ncessarily be a communist and vice versa. One has to be a communist as well as a Marxist!) It is the avowed aim of the communists (the aim Marx said the communists “disdain to conceal”) is the forcible overthrow of the bourgeois State. The CPI-M admits that the Indian State is a bourgeois-landlord State. How come then that a party opposing a bourgeois State and seeking to change this State, becomes an “anti-State” party in the eyes of another party which also swears by Marxism? Let us recall Marx’s passionate support for Irish independence in the First International in 1871. Patriotism is a weapon which has been used by the bourgeoisie throughout history to perpetuate their class rule. It is precisely on the question of the task of the Social Democrats in the First World War that the Second International broke down as Social Democrats of most European countries thought it their “patriotic” duty to support their respective bourgeois governments in the War. They ignored Lenin’s call to “turn the imperialist war into a civil war. Three successive conferences held at Zimmerwald could not convince the Social Democrats of the need to maintain the unity and solidarity of the working class in the face of the War. From that day, “Social Democrat” became a term of abuse in the lexicon of the Marxist- Leninists. The the way “sedition” is being interpreted in India today is ominous. It will put an end to all political debates, gag all criticism of the Government and outlaw all mass movements. It is a danger which is looming large over our polity and needs to be fought and defeated. (The writer is a senior journalist who had worked as Special Correspondent in Patriot, Financial Express, Indian Express and The Hindu, from which he retired in 2004. He is a free-lancer now.) Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From javedmasoo at gmail.com Thu Oct 28 09:22:41 2010 From: javedmasoo at gmail.com (Javed) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 09:22:41 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] More RSS leaders to be interrogated? Message-ID: In this country you go to jail for speaking the truth, and walk free for conducting terrorist activities. ---- More RSS leaders to be interrogated? TNN, Oct 28, 2010, 08.37am IST JAIPUR: A day after Rajasthan ATS said it was going to interrogate RSS executive council member Indresh Kumar, state home minister Shanti Dhariwal told reporters that some other officebearers of the organisation, too, were in the scanner. ''The ATS has enough evidence to question Indresh Kumar. Besides, few more names have cropped up in the course of investigation. It's now for the agencies to decide when to interrogate them,'' Dhariwal told reporters on Wednesday. He did not reveal the names of other RSS leaders. Meanwhile, ATS has attached a few pages of Sunil Joshi's diary in the Ajmer blasts case chargesheet. Joshi, once an RSS pracharak, is alleged to have triggered the blast that killed three people and injured around 30. He was murdered by unknown assailants near Dewas in Madhya Pradesh about two months after the dargah blast, but the police recovered two of his diaries. The ATS is probing some other top RSS leaders' links with Jai Vande Mataram, the organisation in focus for the terror attack. While Indresh has been named in the chargesheet, which was filed by ATS in the court of additional chief judicial magistrate Jagendra Kumar Jain on October 22, page 509 of the chargesheet has an attached photocopy of a page from Joshi's diary which has Ram Madhav's name and mobile numbers. Page 579 of the chargesheet has another photocopy of a page from Joshi's diary that has the name and mobile number of BJP's Gorakhpur MP Yogi Adityanath. ''The ATS will study the frequency of calls between these RSS leaders and Sunil Joshi, what time in the day these calls were made, and in what period. This can prove a significant lead,'' said an officer. The ATS is relying heavily on the diaries as these prove Joshi's closeness with top RSS leaders. It also suggests he was strongly driven by Hindutva. ''He made the last entry in the diary 10 months before the blast with strong Hindutva overtones,'' the chargesheet claims. ATS sources said the interrogation of Ram Madhav and Adityanath wasn't ruled out. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/More-RSS-leaders-to-be-interrogated/articleshow/6826378.cms From bangalorefilmsociety at gmail.com Thu Oct 28 11:59:17 2010 From: bangalorefilmsociety at gmail.com (Bangalore Film Society ,) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 23:29:17 -0700 Subject: [Reader-list] Call for Entry - pEtE Maatu international short and documentary film festival Message-ID: *NGMA* in collaboration with *Bangalore** Film Society* and Just femme present pEtE Maatu- City conversations; in her own words * *** *Dec 17** - **19, 2010* *International Short and Documentary Film Festival*** *Call for Entries* "In thousands of eyes, in thousands of objects, the city is reflected." - Walter Benjamin Just Femme in collaboration with Bangalore Film Society and NGMA is proud to announce the inaugural edition of ‘pEtE maatu’- the inaugural short and documentary film festival from 17th to 19th December 2010 at the NGMA auditorium, Bengaluru. City spaces grow, evolve, and respond to men and women differently. Six-lane roads, a sun-warmed bench in the park, unbroken footpaths, a well-lit bus stop, clean and fast transportation, safe passage home after dark – experiences and expectations are as varied as they come. *pEtE maatu *aims to start conversations around the issue of gender in an urban context. The right to spaces that are safe, clean, aesthetic and people-friendly. An aspect of development which is often left out of the development goals and plans set for the city. This three-day event will deconstruct the everyday negotiations that women undertake with the city’s spaces. • The different kinds of negotiations women undertake in the city spaces. • Women's right to mobility and safety. • What makes a woman-safe city? • What are the steps can be taken by citizens and policy makers to make our cities safe for women *pEtE maatu* invites your short films, documentaries, photographs and articles on the theme of urban space that question, provoke and analyze the issues of gender and city. Impressions, expressions, lucidities, confusions, longings, maps and homes. The grand narratives of the teeming millions and yet, the silent walk down a lonely alley. *Guidelines:* *Entries to the Film Festival must include: * - DVD of the film- 2 copies (with English subtitles, if required) with a 30 second trailer of the film ** - A completed and signed copy of the entry form available for download here: http://justfemme.in/petemattu-filmfestival-photexhibit - Three high-resolution stills of the film (can be sent via email) - A high-resolution photograph of the director (can be sent via email) *Promotional materials are welcome* *There is no entry fee.* All submitted films will be subject to a selection process by eminent members of the festival jury. Applicant must pay for shipment of films. Submitted films will not be returned but will be part of pEtE maatu library *Last date for submissions: 25th November 2010* Download application for here: http://justfemme.in/petemattu-filmfestival-photexhibit *Address:* Bangalore Film Society No.33/1-9, Thygaraja Layout Jaibharath Nagar M.S. Nagar P.O Bangalore 560 033 Karnataka/India Mobile: +91-80-9886213516 / 9916973759 / 9986170866 For queries mail us at bangalorefilmsociety at gmail.com or petemaatu at gmail.com From samvitr at gmail.com Thu Oct 28 12:11:35 2010 From: samvitr at gmail.com (Samvit) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 12:11:35 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] More RSS leaders to be interrogated? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Javed, If you are talking about Anundhati's version of truth then I disagree with you. But you have every right to your opinion. In Kashmir about 600 temples have been burnt and some of them have been converted to katal khanas (butcher houses where beef is sold). No one talks about them but the whole world seems to be mourning about a defunct mosque (when I say defunct I mean where zamaz is not performed). Isn't that a shame. In Gujarat, there have been hundreds of commissions investigating the crimes against the minorities. But it has been two decades and not even a single commission has been set up to investigate the genocide of Pandits in the Valley. Vote bank politics isn't it?? I never saw you talking about it. BTW, Indresh's name is not there in the chargesheet and the RSS has a right to protest. So what if they do not have AK 47's like the maosists or the mullahs from Kashmir. RSS is a charitable organization that fanatics like you are maligning. RSS has done great work in helping people of the "bhookha nanga hindustan". It is easy to sit in an armchair and comment on people. For people like you convenience is more important than conviction. -Samvit On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 9:22 AM, Javed wrote: > In this country you go to jail for speaking the truth, and walk free > for conducting terrorist activities. > > ---- > More RSS leaders to be interrogated? > TNN, Oct 28, 2010, 08.37am IST > > JAIPUR: A day after Rajasthan ATS said it was going to interrogate RSS > executive council member Indresh Kumar, state home minister Shanti > Dhariwal told reporters that some other officebearers of the > organisation, too, were in the scanner. ''The ATS has enough evidence > to question Indresh Kumar. Besides, few more names have cropped up in > the course of investigation. It's now for the agencies to decide when > to interrogate them,'' Dhariwal told reporters on Wednesday. > > He did not reveal the names of other RSS leaders. > > Meanwhile, ATS has attached a few pages of Sunil Joshi's diary in the > Ajmer blasts case chargesheet. Joshi, once an RSS pracharak, is > alleged to have triggered the blast that killed three people and > injured around 30. He was murdered by unknown assailants near Dewas in > Madhya Pradesh about two months after the dargah blast, but the police > recovered two of his diaries. The ATS is probing some other top RSS > leaders' links with Jai Vande Mataram, the organisation in focus for > the terror attack. > > While Indresh has been named in the chargesheet, which was filed by > ATS in the court of additional chief judicial magistrate Jagendra > Kumar Jain on October 22, page 509 of the chargesheet has an attached > photocopy of a page from Joshi's diary which has Ram Madhav's name and > mobile numbers. Page 579 of the chargesheet has another photocopy of a > page from Joshi's diary that has the name and mobile number of BJP's > Gorakhpur MP Yogi Adityanath. > > ''The ATS will study the frequency of calls between these RSS leaders > and Sunil Joshi, what time in the day these calls were made, and in > what period. This can prove a significant lead,'' said an officer. The > ATS is relying heavily on the diaries as these prove Joshi's closeness > with top RSS leaders. It also suggests he was strongly driven by > Hindutva. > ''He made the last entry > > in the diary 10 months before the blast with strong Hindutva > overtones,'' the chargesheet claims. ATS sources said > the interrogation of Ram Madhav and Adityanath wasn't ruled out. > > http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/More-RSS-leaders-to-be-interrogated/articleshow/6826378.cms > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Samvit Rawal 9422037853 ----------------------------------------------------------- To err is human; to forgive, infrequent.   - Franklin P. Adams From samvitr at gmail.com Thu Oct 28 12:19:43 2010 From: samvitr at gmail.com (Samvit) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 12:19:43 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Statement by Arundhati Roy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Shuddhabrata, so you have already judged me. Because I do not agree with your thoughts, what next, do you intend to hang me?? You are going whole hog about Arunadhti's "right to speak her mind" and when it comes to me I because Reich's appropriate. I wonder what would a "intellectual" like you say about Arthur Schopenhauer. Perhaps you would not allowed him to exist. He was, perhaps, what you call a misogynist. If you only want to hear your voice, just talk to the mirror. He will agree with whatever you say and won't even judge you. -Samvit On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 8:03 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > Samvit, > the only thing I (and I am sure there are others on this list who will agree > with me) am in awe of is the depths of your misogyny. That you see it fit to > comment in this manner about the personal lives of others only proves that > you have absolutely no moral or ethical standards of your own. Something is > deeply disturbing with the nationaist Indian obsession with matters of > sexuality, attire, and personal life choices. Are you all in need of some > prolonged courses of therapeutic treatment, or are you simply depraved > individuals who use their exhibitinonist patriotic outrage as a cover for > the darkest of fantasies. Wilhelm Reich in his investigations into the links > between Fascism and Sexual Repression in Germany was maybe onto something > that we need to start seriously thinking about in contemporary India. > best > Shuddha > > On 27-Oct-10, at 6:34 PM, Samvit wrote: > > I think that she is an intellectual leftover. It is very surprising > that I find people of Sarai are raving about a woman who is > pardaoxically opposite to the leftist ideology.  While the stories of > her promiscuity are legendary I would not talk about them as it would > be interfering in her personal life. However some years back I saw her > in the skimpiest clothing going to the most capitalistic gym anyone > can think of. > Those who rave about her writing need to read more writers and they > would realize what talent Arundati has got. Also, it is "en vogue" to > write against India. The great India rope trick sells like hot cake. > Write a book that says elephants run on Indian roads and it sells like > hot cake in the "developed world". > It is the intellectual leftovers like her and Gautam Navlakha who call > India "a corporate Hindu state". It is pretty sad that people on this > forum are "in awe of her". > -Samvit > On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 5:47 PM, Inder Salim wrote: > > I guess people in India will read her only after she gets Nobel for > literature. > which she deserves > > love > is > > On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 3:14 PM, Rajkamal Goswami > wrote: > > Dear Aditya > I am sure yo know about her fictional work 1 novel & 1 screenplay. But > I am not sure if you have read her non-fictional work. Well she didn't > win booker for them but she won the "Sydney Peace Prize" and the > "Sahitya Akademi award" which she politely refused. Her body of non > fiction work is far greater (both in volume and quality) than her > fictional work. I hope you have read her work. If not please read > atleast the essential Roy viz "The greater common good", the "Algebra > of Infinite justice", "Come September", Do Turkeys Enjoy > Thanksgiving", "Peace is War", "Listening To Grasshoppers", "Shall We > Leave It to the Experts?" and my favorite  “The Ladies have feelings > so…”  You should definitely read the last one because it answers your > query about the very questions that you have raised. > Regarding a fiction writer being political, well all writers are > political. That some chose to remain silent is also a political > activity. That Ms. Roy choses to write her politics and throw it open > to ideas and criticism is the best thing I really like about her. > Besides she is also indulged in field activism, giving her voice to > the voiceless and rooting for real democracy. > Thanks > r > On 10/27/10, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > > Are you the moderator? Just curious again. You indeed have a big hand. > On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 2:31 PM, Tapas Ray [Gmail] > wrote: > > ps: I mean, to Aditya. > On 27 October 2010 14:30, Tapas Ray [Gmail] wrote: > > Really intelligent comment. Let's give him a big hand! > On 27 October 2010 14:23, Aditya Raj Kaul > > wrote: > > Isn't she a Fiction writer? Or is she really a writer? Just curious. > On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 2:01 PM, Rajkamal Goswami < > > rajkamalgoswami at gmail.com > > wrote: > > I am just in awe of this woman. > On 10/27/10, Tapas Ray [Gmail] wrote: > > Pheeta, > No problem, and no need to apologise! > Best, > Tapas > On 27 October 2010 09:07, Pheeta Ram wrote: > > Dear Tapas > Actually the statement was sent to me by somebody. I forgot to > check > > if > > it > > had already been published online; that's why there was no link. > > Thanks > > for > reminding me the etiquettes of responsible online publishing. > I shall take care next time. > Pheeta Ram > On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 6:42 AM, Tapas Ray [Gmail] < > > tapasrayx at gmail.com > > wrote: > > Pheeta, > Thanks for this. I think it would be good if we gave the links > > along > > with any material from online sources that we might be posting. > > This > > one's is > < > > http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/arundhati-roys-statement-on-possible-sedition-case-62566 > > . > > As for offline sources (e.g., printed books, etc.), a mention of > > the > > source, as complete as possible, would be very helpful. > Thanks again. > Tapas > > On 27 October 2010 02:10, Pheeta Ram wrote: > > STATEMENT BY ARUNDHATI ROY > I write this from Srinagar, Kashmir. This morning’s papers say > > that I > > may be arrested on charges of sedition for what I have said at > > recent > > public meetings on Kashmir. I said what millions of people here > > say > > every day. I said what I, as well as other commentators have > > written > > and said for years. Anybody who cares to read the transcripts of > > my > > speeches will see that they were fundamentally a call for > > justice. I > > spoke about justice for the people of Kashmir who live under one > > of > > the most brutal military occupations in the world; for Kashmiri > Pandits who live out the tragedy of having been driven out of > > their > > homeland; for Dalit soldiers killed in Kashmir whose graves I > > visited > > on garbage heaps in their villages in Cuddalore; for the Indian > > poor > > who pay the price of this occupation in material ways and who > are > > now > > learning to live in the terror of what is becoming a police > > state. > > Yesterday I traveled to Shopian, the apple-town in South Kashmir > > which > > had remained closed for 47 days last year in protest against the > brutal rape and murder of Asiya and Nilofer, the young women > > whose > > bodies were found in a shallow stream near their homes and whose > murderers have still not been brought to justice. I met Shakeel, > > who > > is Nilofer’s husband and Asiya’s brother.  We sat in a circle of > people crazed with grief and anger who had lost hope that they > > would > > ever get ‘insaf’—justice—from India, and now believed that > Azadi—freedom— was their only hope. I met young stone pelters > who > > had > > been shot through their eyes. I traveled with a young man who > > told me > > how three of his friends, teenagers in Anantnag district, had > > been > > taken into custody and had their finger-nails pulled out as > > punishment > > for throwing stones. > In the papers some have accused me of giving ‘hate-speeches’, of > wanting India to break up. On the contrary, what I say comes > from > > love > > and pride. It comes from not wanting people to be killed, raped, > imprisoned or have their finger-nails pulled out in order to > > force > > them to say they are Indians. It comes from wanting to live in a > society that is striving to be a just one. Pity the nation that > > has > > to > > silence its writers for speaking their minds. Pity the nation > > that > > needs to jail those who ask for justice, while communal killers, > > mass > > murderers, corporate scamsters, looters, rapists, and those who > > prey > > on the poorest of the poor, roam free. > Arundhati Roy > October 26 2010 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe > > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > -- > Rajkamal > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > -- > Rajkamal > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > -- > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > -- > Samvit Rawal > 9422037853 > ----------------------------------------------------------- > To err is human; to forgive, infrequent. >   - Franklin P. Adams > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > -- Samvit Rawal 9422037853 ----------------------------------------------------------- To err is human; to forgive, infrequent.   - Franklin P. Adams From tapasrayx at gmail.com Thu Oct 28 13:13:53 2010 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray [Gmail]) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 13:13:53 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Statement by Arundhati Roy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Why is the mirror masculine? I mean, there are two characters involved here apart from Shuddha himself - (a) his image, and (b) the mirror. The image is a virtual thing, so we can say it has no gender. In any case, it is "speaking" only the words Shuddha himself is speaking and only as long as he is speaking, so there is no question of agreement or disagreement. That leaves the mirror, whose gender I am trying to determine ... and Samvit has already determined. Just wanted to bring some clarity to the issue. Hope this has helped. On 28 October 2010 12:19, Samvit wrote: > Shuddhabrata, > so you have already judged me. Because I do not agree with your > thoughts, what next, do you intend to hang me?? > You are going whole hog about Arunadhti's "right to speak her mind" > and when it comes to me I because Reich's appropriate. I wonder what > would a "intellectual" like you say about Arthur Schopenhauer. Perhaps > you would not allowed him to exist. He was, perhaps, what you call a > misogynist. > If you only want to hear your voice, just talk to the mirror. He will > agree with whatever you say and won't even judge you. > -Samvit > > > On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 8:03 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta > wrote: >> Samvit, >> the only thing I (and I am sure there are others on this list who will agree >> with me) am in awe of is the depths of your misogyny. That you see it fit to >> comment in this manner about the personal lives of others only proves that >> you have absolutely no moral or ethical standards of your own. Something is >> deeply disturbing with the nationaist Indian obsession with matters of >> sexuality, attire, and personal life choices. Are you all in need of some >> prolonged courses of therapeutic treatment, or are you simply depraved >> individuals who use their exhibitinonist patriotic outrage as a cover for >> the darkest of fantasies. Wilhelm Reich in his investigations into the links >> between Fascism and Sexual Repression in Germany was maybe onto something >> that we need to start seriously thinking about in contemporary India. >> best >> Shuddha >> >> On 27-Oct-10, at 6:34 PM, Samvit wrote: >> >> I think that she is an intellectual leftover. It is very surprising >> that I find people of Sarai are raving about a woman who is >> pardaoxically opposite to the leftist ideology.  While the stories of >> her promiscuity are legendary I would not talk about them as it would >> be interfering in her personal life. However some years back I saw her >> in the skimpiest clothing going to the most capitalistic gym anyone >> can think of. >> Those who rave about her writing need to read more writers and they >> would realize what talent Arundati has got. Also, it is "en vogue" to >> write against India. The great India rope trick sells like hot cake. >> Write a book that says elephants run on Indian roads and it sells like >> hot cake in the "developed world". >> It is the intellectual leftovers like her and Gautam Navlakha who call >> India "a corporate Hindu state". It is pretty sad that people on this >> forum are "in awe of her". >> -Samvit >> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 5:47 PM, Inder Salim wrote: >> >> I guess people in India will read her only after she gets Nobel for >> literature. >> which she deserves >> >> love >> is >> >> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 3:14 PM, Rajkamal Goswami >> wrote: >> >> Dear Aditya >> I am sure yo know about her fictional work 1 novel & 1 screenplay. But >> I am not sure if you have read her non-fictional work. Well she didn't >> win booker for them but she won the "Sydney Peace Prize" and the >> "Sahitya Akademi award" which she politely refused. Her body of non >> fiction work is far greater (both in volume and quality) than her >> fictional work. I hope you have read her work. If not please read >> atleast the essential Roy viz "The greater common good", the "Algebra >> of Infinite justice", "Come September", Do Turkeys Enjoy >> Thanksgiving", "Peace is War", "Listening To Grasshoppers", "Shall We >> Leave It to the Experts?" and my favorite  “The Ladies have feelings >> so…”  You should definitely read the last one because it answers your >> query about the very questions that you have raised. >> Regarding a fiction writer being political, well all writers are >> political. That some chose to remain silent is also a political >> activity. That Ms. Roy choses to write her politics and throw it open >> to ideas and criticism is the best thing I really like about her. >> Besides she is also indulged in field activism, giving her voice to >> the voiceless and rooting for real democracy. >> Thanks >> r >> On 10/27/10, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: >> >> Are you the moderator? Just curious again. You indeed have a big hand. >> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 2:31 PM, Tapas Ray [Gmail] >> wrote: >> >> ps: I mean, to Aditya. >> On 27 October 2010 14:30, Tapas Ray [Gmail] wrote: >> >> Really intelligent comment. Let's give him a big hand! >> On 27 October 2010 14:23, Aditya Raj Kaul >> >> wrote: >> >> Isn't she a Fiction writer? Or is she really a writer? Just curious. >> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 2:01 PM, Rajkamal Goswami < >> >> rajkamalgoswami at gmail.com >> >> wrote: >> >> I am just in awe of this woman. >> On 10/27/10, Tapas Ray [Gmail] wrote: >> >> Pheeta, >> No problem, and no need to apologise! >> Best, >> Tapas >> On 27 October 2010 09:07, Pheeta Ram wrote: >> >> Dear Tapas >> Actually the statement was sent to me by somebody. I forgot to >> check >> >> if >> >> it >> >> had already been published online; that's why there was no link. >> >> Thanks >> >> for >> reminding me the etiquettes of responsible online publishing. >> I shall take care next time. >> Pheeta Ram >> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 6:42 AM, Tapas Ray [Gmail] < >> >> tapasrayx at gmail.com >> >> wrote: >> >> Pheeta, >> Thanks for this. I think it would be good if we gave the links >> >> along >> >> with any material from online sources that we might be posting. >> >> This >> >> one's is >> < >> >> http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/arundhati-roys-statement-on-possible-sedition-case-62566 >> >> . >> >> As for offline sources (e.g., printed books, etc.), a mention of >> >> the >> >> source, as complete as possible, would be very helpful. >> Thanks again. >> Tapas >> >> On 27 October 2010 02:10, Pheeta Ram wrote: >> >> STATEMENT BY ARUNDHATI ROY >> I write this from Srinagar, Kashmir. This morning’s papers say >> >> that I >> >> may be arrested on charges of sedition for what I have said at >> >> recent >> >> public meetings on Kashmir. I said what millions of people here >> >> say >> >> every day. I said what I, as well as other commentators have >> >> written >> >> and said for years. Anybody who cares to read the transcripts of >> >> my >> >> speeches will see that they were fundamentally a call for >> >> justice. I >> >> spoke about justice for the people of Kashmir who live under one >> >> of >> >> the most brutal military occupations in the world; for Kashmiri >> Pandits who live out the tragedy of having been driven out of >> >> their >> >> homeland; for Dalit soldiers killed in Kashmir whose graves I >> >> visited >> >> on garbage heaps in their villages in Cuddalore; for the Indian >> >> poor >> >> who pay the price of this occupation in material ways and who >> are >> >> now >> >> learning to live in the terror of what is becoming a police >> >> state. >> >> Yesterday I traveled to Shopian, the apple-town in South Kashmir >> >> which >> >> had remained closed for 47 days last year in protest against the >> brutal rape and murder of Asiya and Nilofer, the young women >> >> whose >> >> bodies were found in a shallow stream near their homes and whose >> murderers have still not been brought to justice. I met Shakeel, >> >> who >> >> is Nilofer’s husband and Asiya’s brother.  We sat in a circle of >> people crazed with grief and anger who had lost hope that they >> >> would >> >> ever get ‘insaf’—justice—from India, and now believed that >> Azadi—freedom— was their only hope. I met young stone pelters >> who >> >> had >> >> been shot through their eyes. I traveled with a young man who >> >> told me >> >> how three of his friends, teenagers in Anantnag district, had >> >> been >> >> taken into custody and had their finger-nails pulled out as >> >> punishment >> >> for throwing stones. >> In the papers some have accused me of giving ‘hate-speeches’, of >> wanting India to break up. On the contrary, what I say comes >> from >> >> love >> >> and pride. It comes from not wanting people to be killed, raped, >> imprisoned or have their finger-nails pulled out in order to >> >> force >> >> them to say they are Indians. It comes from wanting to live in a >> society that is striving to be a just one. Pity the nation that >> >> has >> >> to >> >> silence its writers for speaking their minds. Pity the nation >> >> that >> >> needs to jail those who ask for justice, while communal killers, >> >> mass >> >> murderers, corporate scamsters, looters, rapists, and those who >> >> prey >> >> on the poorest of the poor, roam free. >> Arundhati Roy >> October 26 2010 >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: >> >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: >> >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> subscribe >> >> in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> -- >> Rajkamal >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe >> in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> -- >> Rajkamal >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe >> in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> -- >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe >> in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> -- >> Samvit Rawal >> 9422037853 >> ----------------------------------------------------------- >> To err is human; to forgive, infrequent. >>   - Franklin P. Adams >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe >> in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >> Raqs Media Collective >> shuddha at sarai.net >> www.sarai.net >> www.raqsmediacollective.net >> >> > > > > -- > Samvit Rawal > 9422037853 > ----------------------------------------------------------- > To err is human; to forgive, infrequent. >   - Franklin P. Adams > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From aalok.aima at yahoo.com Thu Oct 28 13:56:48 2010 From: aalok.aima at yahoo.com (Aalok Aima) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 01:26:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Barun Das Gupta in Kafila on Sedition Provision Gagging Free Speech In-Reply-To: <3A559A9D-F627-4D02-AB23-1BC0F04DD87D@sarai.net> Message-ID: <352126.80036.qm@web120206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> comment earlier made by me on the 'kafila' page ........   Barun   I would think that much of what you have written becomes irrelevant when 124A of the IPC is read in its entirety and not quoted partially.   The accompanying Explanation 1,2,3 are important   “Whoever, by words, either spoken or written, or by signs, or by visible representation, or otherwise, brings or attempts to bring into hatred or contempt, or excites or attempts to excite disaffection towards the Government established by law in India shall be punished with imprisonment for life, to which fine may be added, or with imprisonment which may extend to three years, to which fine may be added, or with fine.   Explanation 1-The expression “disaffection” includes disloyalty and all feelings of enmity.   Explanation 2.- Comments expressing disapprobation of the measures of the Government with a view to obtain their alteration by lawful means, without exciting or attempting to excite hatred, contempt or disaffection, do not constitute an offence under this section.   Explanation 3-Comments expressing disapprobation of the administrative or other action of the Government without exciting or attempting to excite hatred, contempt or disaffection, do not constitute an offence under this section. “     ............. aalok aima --- On Thu, 10/28/10, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta Subject: [Reader-list] Barun Das Gupta in Kafila on Sedition Provision Gagging Free Speech To: "reader-list list" Date: Thursday, October 28, 2010, 12:01 AM Dear all, Here is an other excellent analysis of the Section 124 (The Sedition Law) and its implications for Free Speech. By Barun Dasgupta (Guest Post on Kafila.org) best, Shuddha ------- Sedition Provision Gags Free Speech, by Barun Das Gupta, posted on Kafila.org http://kafila.org/2010/10/26/sedition-provision-gags-free-speechbarun-das-gupta/ The detractors of Arundhati Roy have found a fresh casus belli against her for her recent speech (Oct. 21) in New Delhi, on Kashmir. The participants in the polemics include such intellectuals as Swapan Dasgupta, a journalist and a BJP leader. The burden of their criticism is that Arundhati should be arrested for sedition because by her speeches she has caused hatred and disaffection towards the Government and actually championed the secession of a part of India, that is, Jammu and Kashmir. Let us examine this matter of “creating hatred and disaffection” towards the Government, not from the legal point of view but from the political point of view. Section 124A of the Indian Penal Code says: “Whoever brings or attempts to bring in hatred, contempt or excites disaffection towards the Government shall be punished ……” Before proceeding further, let us note that the concerned section speaks of “disaffection towards the Government”, without specifying whether by “Government” the Central Government is meant or the State Governments. Since there is no explanation, it may be inferred that “Government” means both Central and State Governments. Now, going by the letter of Sec. 124A of IPC, any speech or writing or action that brings in “hatred, contempt or disaffection” towards the Government, attracts the provision of this Section and becomes punishable. Let us try to understand the political implications of this Section. Someone delivers a speech or writes an article against the POSCO project in Orissa and alleges that the Government is surrnedering the interests of the people to satisfy the profict motive of industrialists (whether indigenous or foreign) and that the project must be opposed. His speech/writing causes “hatred” of the people against the Government and holds the Government in “contempt” and therefore he becomes liable to prosecution (and conviction) under the law. Or suppose someone speaks or writes against the projects of “industrial development” being taken up and/or implemented by the Government of West Bengal, like the steel factory project of the Jindals in Medinipur district, uprooting and displacing thousands of adivasis from the lands. He attracts Section 124A. And if he or she organizes and/or leads a mass movement against the project, then he/she only further compounds his/her offence. The same goes for anyone anywhere in India who may be opposing the eviction drive of the Government in the adivasi areas all over the country. If someone were to say that the Government’s motive behind the large-scale eviction of the adivasis is to hand over their land so that the rich mineral wealth lying buried in their land can be exploited to swell the profits of the monopolists and multationals, he brings the Government into contempts and therefore commits sedition. So, if Sec. 124A is taken literally, it will put an end to all criticism of the Government, all mass movements against it. It will change the character of the Indian polity as enshrined in the Preamble to the Consitution that ours is a sovereign, democratic Republic where ultimate power lies in the people. India will cease to be a democratic polity and thereby the “basic sructure of the Constitution” will be is changed. But the Supreme Court has already given its verdict that the basic structure of the Constitution cannot be changed and any law which seeks to do that is ultra vires of the Constitution and therefore void ab initio. If the official interpretation of the scope of Sec.124A is accepted, India will cease to be a democracy and become a totalitarian State, whether of the CPI-M brand, or of the BJP-RSS brand. Therefore, this whole gamut of issues – no less political than legal – has to be brought under the scanner and analysed in a larger perspective. Secondly, the issue of secession, so dear to the hearts of the self-styled patriots. Secession from India, or anything that overtly or covertly supports secession, we are told, is an unpardonable act of treason that should be punished by the eternal banishment of the traitor to Hell (or ananta narakvaas). Really ? Let us go back into past history, more than half a century ago – on September 10 1958, to be precise. On that day the Prime Minister of India, Jawaharlal Nehru, signed an accord with the then Prime Minister of Pakistan, Feroze Khan Noon, which came to be known as the Nehru-Noon Pact. Under the terms of the treaty, India agreed to cede to (East) Pakistan a rich and fertile tract of West Bengal, named Birubari, situated in North Bengal. The land was not only fertile but several lakh East Pakistani refugees had been settled on it. Nehru took the decision to hand over Birubari to Pakistan without the consent of the Government of West Bengal, run by his own Congress Party. The news created a wave of anger and resentment all over West Bengal. The resentment snowballed into a powerful mass movement. Ultimately the people foiled the attempt to cede Birubari to (East) Pakistan. Nehru became the target of trenchant criticism but the charge of sedition was never hurled at him. Let us go further back into history – to 1951. The Assam Legislative Assembly passed a piece of legislation called the Assam (Alteration of Boundaries) Act, 1951, (Act 47 of 1951) under which 32.81 square miles of land in Assam’s Kamrup district was ceded to Bhutan. Nobody called it a treasonable action or the legislation a treasonable Act. These instant patriots are perhaps blissfully ignorant of the fact that for decades, a separatist movement has been going on in Wales in the extreme west of England. The separatist movement is led by the Welsh Nationalist Party and its avowed aim is the secession of Wales from the United Kingdom. There is no witch-hunt against them and no suppression of their movement for openly preaching secession. As a democratic country, Britain takes such demands and such movements in its stride. One of the charges that the CPI-M is frequently hurling at the Maoists is that they are anti-State. Well, well, well. The Communist Party of India (Marxist) is supposed to be both communist and Marxist. (The nomenclature suggests as if Marxism and communism were two mutually exclusive political categories and a Marxist need not ncessarily be a communist and vice versa. One has to be a communist as well as a Marxist!) It is the avowed aim of the communists (the aim Marx said the communists “disdain to conceal”) is the forcible overthrow of the bourgeois State. The CPI-M admits that the Indian State is a bourgeois-landlord State. How come then that a party opposing a bourgeois State and seeking to change this State, becomes an “anti-State” party in the eyes of another party which also swears by Marxism? Let us recall Marx’s passionate support for Irish independence in the First International in 1871. Patriotism is a weapon which has been used by the bourgeoisie throughout history to perpetuate their class rule. It is precisely on the question of the task of the Social Democrats in the First World War that the Second International broke down as Social Democrats of most European countries thought it their “patriotic” duty to support their respective bourgeois governments in the War. They ignored Lenin’s call to “turn the imperialist war into a civil war. Three successive conferences held at Zimmerwald could not convince the Social Democrats of the need to maintain the unity and solidarity of the working class in the face of the War. >From that day, “Social Democrat” became a term of abuse in the lexicon of the Marxist-Leninists. The the way “sedition” is being interpreted in India today is ominous. It will put an end to all political debates, gag all criticism of the Government and outlaw all mass movements. It is a danger which is looming large over our polity and needs to be fought and defeated. (The writer is a senior journalist who had worked as Special Correspondent in Patriot, Financial Express, Indian Express and The Hindu, from which he retired in 2004. He is a free-lancer now.) Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From javedmasoo at gmail.com Thu Oct 28 14:16:11 2010 From: javedmasoo at gmail.com (Javed) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 14:16:11 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] More RSS leaders to be interrogated? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Samvit I am sure you are also using that same armchair convinience to write this mail as I do. Each one of us thinks that we are the victims and the other one is the culprit. This is the reason why every topic discussed on this forum is always arm-twisted into the victimhood of Kashmiri pandits. By the way, you don't have to have AK-47s to do the damage and terror - you can also do the damage using brainwashing of people by educating them about other communities in prejudiced fashion - the way (the charitable NGO) RSS does in its shakhas. No one can deny that. It is as (or more) dangerous and terrorising as the others achieve with guns. But the bomb-making capability of the RSS people is no hidden fact now. J On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 12:11 PM, Samvit wrote: > Javed, > If you are talking about Anundhati's version of truth then I disagree > with you. But you have every right to your opinion. > > In Kashmir about 600 temples have been burnt and some of them have > been converted to katal khanas (butcher houses where beef is sold). No > one talks about them but the whole world seems to be mourning about a > defunct mosque (when I say defunct I mean where zamaz is not > performed). Isn't that a shame. > > In Gujarat, there have been hundreds of commissions investigating the > crimes against the minorities. But it has been two decades and not > even a single commission has been set up to investigate the genocide > of Pandits in the Valley. Vote bank politics isn't it?? I never saw > you talking about it. > > BTW, Indresh's name is not there in the chargesheet and the RSS has a > right to protest. So what if they do not have AK 47's like the > maosists or the mullahs from Kashmir. RSS is a charitable organization > that fanatics like you are maligning. RSS has done great work in > helping people of the "bhookha nanga hindustan". > > It is easy to sit in an armchair and comment on people. For people > like you convenience is more important than conviction. > -Samvit > > > > On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 9:22 AM, Javed wrote: >> In this country you go to jail for speaking the truth, and walk free >> for conducting terrorist activities. >> >> ---- >> More RSS leaders to be interrogated? >> TNN, Oct 28, 2010, 08.37am IST >> >> JAIPUR: A day after Rajasthan ATS said it was going to interrogate RSS >> executive council member Indresh Kumar, state home minister Shanti >> Dhariwal told reporters that some other officebearers of the >> organisation, too, were in the scanner. ''The ATS has enough evidence >> to question Indresh Kumar. Besides, few more names have cropped up in >> the course of investigation. It's now for the agencies to decide when >> to interrogate them,'' Dhariwal told reporters on Wednesday. >> >> He did not reveal the names of other RSS leaders. >> >> Meanwhile, ATS has attached a few pages of Sunil Joshi's diary in the >> Ajmer blasts case chargesheet. Joshi, once an RSS pracharak, is >> alleged to have triggered the blast that killed three people and >> injured around 30. He was murdered by unknown assailants near Dewas in >> Madhya Pradesh about two months after the dargah blast, but the police >> recovered two of his diaries. The ATS is probing some other top RSS >> leaders' links with Jai Vande Mataram, the organisation in focus for >> the terror attack. >> >> While Indresh has been named in the chargesheet, which was filed by >> ATS in the court of additional chief judicial magistrate Jagendra >> Kumar Jain on October 22, page 509 of the chargesheet has an attached >> photocopy of a page from Joshi's diary which has Ram Madhav's name and >> mobile numbers. Page 579 of the chargesheet has another photocopy of a >> page from Joshi's diary that has the name and mobile number of BJP's >> Gorakhpur MP Yogi Adityanath. >> >> ''The ATS will study the frequency of calls between these RSS leaders >> and Sunil Joshi, what time in the day these calls were made, and in >> what period. This can prove a significant lead,'' said an officer. The >> ATS is relying heavily on the diaries as these prove Joshi's closeness >> with top RSS leaders. It also suggests he was strongly driven by >> Hindutva. >> ''He made the last entry >> >> in the diary 10 months before the blast with strong Hindutva >> overtones,'' the chargesheet claims. ATS sources said >> the interrogation of Ram Madhav and Adityanath wasn't ruled out. >> >> http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/More-RSS-leaders-to-be-interrogated/articleshow/6826378.cms >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > Samvit Rawal > 9422037853 > ----------------------------------------------------------- > To err is human; to forgive, infrequent. >   - Franklin P. Adams > From aalok.aima at yahoo.com Thu Oct 28 14:31:09 2010 From: aalok.aima at yahoo.com (Aalok Aima) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 02:01:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Statement by Arundhati Roy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <21328.34821.qm@web120205.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> "Something is deeply disturbing with the nationaist Indian obsession with matters of sexuality, attire, and personal life choices. Are you all in need of some prolonged courses of therapeutic treatment, or are you simply depraved individuals who use their exhibitinonist patriotic outrage as a cover for the darkest of fantasies."   shuddha   i am an indian nationalist     whatever you might have to say to any individual, the kind of generalisation you have made is not expected from you   ........... aalok aima --- On Wed, 10/27/10, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Statement by Arundhati Roy To: "Samvit" Cc: "reader-list" Date: Wednesday, October 27, 2010, 6:33 PM Samvit, the only thing I (and I am sure there are others on this list who will agree with me) am in awe of is the depths of your misogyny. That you see it fit to comment in this manner about the personal lives of others only proves that you have absolutely no moral or ethical standards of your own. Something is deeply disturbing with the nationaist Indian obsession with matters of sexuality, attire, and personal life choices. Are you all in need of some prolonged courses of therapeutic treatment, or are you simply depraved individuals who use their exhibitinonist patriotic outrage as a cover for the darkest of fantasies. Wilhelm Reich in his investigations into the links between Fascism and Sexual Repression in Germany was maybe onto something that we need to start seriously thinking about in contemporary India. best Shuddha On 27-Oct-10, at 6:34 PM, Samvit wrote: > I think that she is an intellectual leftover. It is very surprising > that I find people of Sarai are raving about a woman who is > pardaoxically opposite to the leftist ideology.  While the stories of > her promiscuity are legendary I would not talk about them as it would > be interfering in her personal life. However some years back I saw her > in the skimpiest clothing going to the most capitalistic gym anyone > can think of. > > Those who rave about her writing need to read more writers and they > would realize what talent Arundati has got. Also, it is "en vogue" to > write against India. The great India rope trick sells like hot cake. > Write a book that says elephants run on Indian roads and it sells like > hot cake in the "developed world". > It is the intellectual leftovers like her and Gautam Navlakha who call > India "a corporate Hindu state". It is pretty sad that people on this > forum are "in awe of her". > -Samvit > > On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 5:47 PM, Inder Salim wrote: >> I guess people in India will read her only after she gets Nobel for literature. >> which she deserves >> >> >> love >> is >> >> >> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 3:14 PM, Rajkamal Goswami >> wrote: >>> Dear Aditya >>> >>> I am sure yo know about her fictional work 1 novel & 1 screenplay. But >>> I am not sure if you have read her non-fictional work. Well she didn't >>> win booker for them but she won the "Sydney Peace Prize" and the >>> "Sahitya Akademi award" which she politely refused. Her body of non >>> fiction work is far greater (both in volume and quality) than her >>> fictional work. I hope you have read her work. If not please read >>> atleast the essential Roy viz "The greater common good", the "Algebra >>> of Infinite justice", "Come September", Do Turkeys Enjoy >>> Thanksgiving", "Peace is War", "Listening To Grasshoppers", "Shall We >>> Leave It to the Experts?" and my favorite  “The Ladies have feelings >>> so…”  You should definitely read the last one because it answers your >>> query about the very questions that you have raised. >>> >>> Regarding a fiction writer being political, well all writers are >>> political. That some chose to remain silent is also a political >>> activity. That Ms. Roy choses to write her politics and throw it open >>> to ideas and criticism is the best thing I really like about her. >>> Besides she is also indulged in field activism, giving her voice to >>> the voiceless and rooting for real democracy. >>> >>> Thanks >>> r >>> >>> On 10/27/10, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: >>>> Are you the moderator? Just curious again. You indeed have a big hand. >>>> >>>> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 2:31 PM, Tapas Ray [Gmail] >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> ps: I mean, to Aditya. >>>>> >>>>> On 27 October 2010 14:30, Tapas Ray [Gmail] wrote: >>>>>> Really intelligent comment. Let's give him a big hand! >>>>>> >>>>>> On 27 October 2010 14:23, Aditya Raj Kaul >>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> Isn't she a Fiction writer? Or is she really a writer? Just curious. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 2:01 PM, Rajkamal Goswami < >>>>> rajkamalgoswami at gmail.com >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I am just in awe of this woman. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 10/27/10, Tapas Ray [Gmail] wrote: >>>>>>>>> Pheeta, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> No problem, and no need to apologise! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Tapas >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 27 October 2010 09:07, Pheeta Ram wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Dear Tapas >>>>>>>>>> Actually the statement was sent to me by somebody. I forgot to >>>>>>>>>> check >>>>> if >>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>> had already been published online; that's why there was no link. >>>>> Thanks >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> reminding me the etiquettes of responsible online publishing. >>>>>>>>>> I shall take care next time. >>>>>>>>>> Pheeta Ram >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 6:42 AM, Tapas Ray [Gmail] < >>>>> tapasrayx at gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Pheeta, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for this. I think it would be good if we gave the links >>>>> along >>>>>>>>>>> with any material from online sources that we might be posting. >>>>> This >>>>>>>>>>> one's is >>>>>>>>>>> < >>>>>>>> >>>>> http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/arundhati-roys-statement-on-possible-sedition-case-62566 >>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>>> As for offline sources (e.g., printed books, etc.), a mention of >>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> source, as complete as possible, would be very helpful. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks again. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Tapas >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 27 October 2010 02:10, Pheeta Ram wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> STATEMENT BY ARUNDHATI ROY >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I write this from Srinagar, Kashmir. This morning’s papers say >>>>> that I >>>>>>>>>>>> may be arrested on charges of sedition for what I have said at >>>>> recent >>>>>>>>>>>> public meetings on Kashmir. I said what millions of people here >>>>> say >>>>>>>>>>>> every day. I said what I, as well as other commentators have >>>>> written >>>>>>>>>>>> and said for years. Anybody who cares to read the transcripts of >>>>> my >>>>>>>>>>>> speeches will see that they were fundamentally a call for >>>>> justice. I >>>>>>>>>>>> spoke about justice for the people of Kashmir who live under one >>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> the most brutal military occupations in the world; for Kashmiri >>>>>>>>>>>> Pandits who live out the tragedy of having been driven out of >>>>> their >>>>>>>>>>>> homeland; for Dalit soldiers killed in Kashmir whose graves I >>>>> visited >>>>>>>>>>>> on garbage heaps in their villages in Cuddalore; for the Indian >>>>> poor >>>>>>>>>>>> who pay the price of this occupation in material ways and who >>>>>>>>>>>> are >>>>> now >>>>>>>>>>>> learning to live in the terror of what is becoming a police >>>>> state. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Yesterday I traveled to Shopian, the apple-town in South Kashmir >>>>>>>> which >>>>>>>>>>>> had remained closed for 47 days last year in protest against the >>>>>>>>>>>> brutal rape and murder of Asiya and Nilofer, the young women >>>>> whose >>>>>>>>>>>> bodies were found in a shallow stream near their homes and whose >>>>>>>>>>>> murderers have still not been brought to justice. I met Shakeel, >>>>> who >>>>>>>>>>>> is Nilofer’s husband and Asiya’s brother.  We sat in a circle of >>>>>>>>>>>> people crazed with grief and anger who had lost hope that they >>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>>> ever get ‘insaf’—justice—from India, and now believed that >>>>>>>>>>>> Azadi—freedom— was their only hope. I met young stone pelters >>>>>>>>>>>> who >>>>> had >>>>>>>>>>>> been shot through their eyes. I traveled with a young man who >>>>> told me >>>>>>>>>>>> how three of his friends, teenagers in Anantnag district, had >>>>> been >>>>>>>>>>>> taken into custody and had their finger-nails pulled out as >>>>>>>> punishment >>>>>>>>>>>> for throwing stones. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> In the papers some have accused me of giving ‘hate-speeches’, of >>>>>>>>>>>> wanting India to break up. On the contrary, what I say comes >>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>> love >>>>>>>>>>>> and pride. It comes from not wanting people to be killed, raped, >>>>>>>>>>>> imprisoned or have their finger-nails pulled out in order to >>>>> force >>>>>>>>>>>> them to say they are Indians. It comes from wanting to live in a >>>>>>>>>>>> society that is striving to be a just one. Pity the nation that >>>>> has >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>> silence its writers for speaking their minds. Pity the nation >>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>> needs to jail those who ask for justice, while communal killers, >>>>> mass >>>>>>>>>>>> murderers, corporate scamsters, looters, rapists, and those who >>>>> prey >>>>>>>>>>>> on the poorest of the poor, roam free. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Arundhati Roy >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> October 26 2010 >>>>>>>>>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>>>>>>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith >>>>>>>>>>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe: >>>>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>>>>>>>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>>>>>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>>>>>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>>>>>>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe: >>>>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>>>>>>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>>>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>>>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>>>>> subscribe >>>>>>>>> in the subject header. >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>>>>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Rajkamal >>>>>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>>>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>>>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>>> >>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>> >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe >>>> in the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Rajkamal >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > --Samvit Rawal > 9422037853 > ----------------------------------------------------------- > To err is human; to forgive, infrequent. >   - Franklin P. Adams > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From adityarajbaul at gmail.com Thu Oct 28 14:43:04 2010 From: adityarajbaul at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Baul) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 14:43:04 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Half stories, half truths about Kashmir: Pradeep Magazine Message-ID: Half stories, half truths about Kashmir by Pradeep Magazine Hindustan Times October 27, 2010 http://www.hindustantimes.com/Half-stories-half-truths-about-Kashmir/Article1-618673.aspx Sanjay Kak is a Kashmiri Pandit who has made an evocative documentary, Jashn-e-Azadi, which captures various forms of protests in the Valley and traces the deep sense of alienation of Muslims. The word azadi, in that film, acquires a meaning far deeper than just freedom or secession. The concept of azadi is so entrenched in the Kashmiri Muslim consciousness that neither State largesse nor repression can restore peace to the valley, if their struggle isn’t understood in human terms. Kak’s documentary also brings out the angst of Kashmiri Pandits, their longing for a home from which they’ve been uprooted. A few years ago, I watched this disturbing human drama and, as a Pandit myself, admired Kak’s courage in confronting vested interests, including his own community. As we came out of the theatre, a relative of mine lamented, “I feel guilty". This guilt did not arise, as mine did, from the realisation that the Kashmir issue is not a religious-fundamentalist movement, as the Indian state portrays. He, instead, felt that “by watching the film he was endorsing the outrageous, misleading propaganda his own community member (Kak) was spreading.” Kashmiri Pandit activists have prevented the screening of Kak’s film in Delhi through protests you can’t call peaceful. This preamble is to put in perspective the story about last week’s seminar, ‘Azadi, the only way’, which has spawned many versions, each wildly different in its perception of what transpired. Syed Ali Shah Geelani’s call for azadi there has outraged Indians; they want him and Arundhati Roy — whom the middle class hates as much as V P Singh for his Mandal experiment — to be tried for sedition. As a witness to the event, I must admit that the 400-strong audience, comprising mostly young Kashmiris, erupted in frenzied applause every time a speaker referred to the oppression by the Indian state in Kashmir. There were speakers from the ultra left too, who underlined the brutal suppression of just mass struggles across India. Their speeches were equally anti-State, but they weren’t hate speeches nor did they advocate violence. In this charged atmosphere, the problem began when Roy began to speak. She was heckled, for ignoring the injustices against Kashmiri Hindus, as she blasted the Indian State. The taunts of the hecklers, numbering just a dozen, were drowned in the thunderous applause of the majority, which wanted the seminar to continue. A brief pause later, Roy raised some pertinent points for the separatists to ponder. She argued that the Kashmiris should join protest movements against injustices all across India and not care only about their own cause. She also demanded to know what kind of state the separatists envisage — whether the minorities, like the Pandits, would have equal rights and made to feel a sense of belonging in Kashmir, unlike now. As the crowd lapped up each word Roy spoke, I felt proud that our democracy has become mature enough to allow leaders of radical movements to express themselves in the very heart of India. But my pride ebbed when Geelani began to speak — a handful of protesters began to raise cries of Bharat Mata ki jai, unfurl the tricolour and make threatening advances towards the stage. They were asked to listen peacefully or leave. Ultimately, the police escorted them out. Geelani, the ‘incorrigible hawk’, appealed to India to talk to Kashmiris in the language of insaniyat. Responding to Roy’s query, he said an independent Kashmir will grant equal rights to all. He reiterated his demand for a referendum in the undivided J&K, promising to abide by the verdict, even if it went in India’s favour. He expressed hope of India becoming a superpower, outstripping even the US and China. This was what I heard and saw. But the story in the media was quiet different — there was only the heckling and humiliation of Geelani and Arundhati Roy. That the Kashmir story has an alternative narrative, which Kak’s Jashn-e-Azadi depicts and the seminar in Delhi fleetingly touched upon, needs to be told to India’s masses without hecklers hijacking the agenda. From subhachops at gmail.com Thu Oct 28 14:56:58 2010 From: subhachops at gmail.com (Subhash) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 14:56:58 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Statement by Arundhati Roy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Samvit, you really need to learn how to respect and equate women - using words like "over the hill" and pretty for anyone tells that you have had a very distorted education. Why do you have to talk about the gender of a person while talking of her politics? On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 6:58 PM, Samvit wrote: > Anuradha, > Couple of points:- > 1. Arundati is over the hill, least to say that she is "pretty". You > are making us believe that in India good looking woman are not > respected. There are thousands of pretty girls who work all kind of > time zones and they make us proud. Woman have proved themselves in all > fields, even outpacing men. So that logic doesn't count. > 2. It is a typical Gobellian technique to say that she is non-violent. > She instigates people to all kind of violence. She  hops from city to > city promoting her vision of an Utopian world. > > 2. And yes, you make it sound so simple about the Pandits. If you do > not know the truth please do not make comments about people who have > suffered like no Indian ever did. I just pray to God that you never > have to face what the Pandits have gone thorugh. Imagine a situation > where you have fanatics banging at you door and hunting for women in > your family. You are ready to poison them before they fall prey to the > fanatics. You call the police and you realize that they are siding > with the zealots. The Indian state is impotent because we have khadi > clad intellectuals who think helping the Pandits would be non-secular. > The whole community is uprooted from the Valley while Sonia and Rajiv > Gandhi are playing with snow en route to Kashmir. You do not even know > half the story. So I suggest that you do some more research before you > provide your expertise. > > Kashmir and Kashmiri are very complex, the Indian state is too naive > to handle them. > -Samvit > > > > On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 6:35 PM, anuradha mukherjee wrote: >> Inder, I think she makes for a soft target because she is a woman, she is >> pretty, speaks her mind in a non-violent manner (without the help of gun or >> crotch grabbing bodyguards). I may disagree with her approach on may issues, >> may be not in essense but the way she articulates herself, but the woman is >> courageous. It takes courage to defy the majority view like this. >> And she gets attention, so those who berate her also share the limelight. >> But I also disagree with the people who say "nothing happened, Jagmohan >> created a bogey, Pandit left on their own", "Muslims wants them back" etc. >> The last statement may or may not be true, but no community gives up its >> hearths and homes and livelihoods overnight and chooses to live as refugees. >> But the tragedy of Kashmir is that its daily suffering forces it to discount >> the sufferings of its Hindu brothers. If you say Azadi, please do not say >> that Pandits had it easy either (may be those with resources did). >> >> >> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 5:47 PM, Inder Salim wrote: >> >>> I guess people in India will read her only after she gets Nobel for >>> literature. >>> which she deserves >>> >>> >>> love >>> is >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 3:14 PM, Rajkamal Goswami >>> wrote: >>> > Dear Aditya >>> > >>> > I am sure yo know about her fictional work 1 novel & 1 screenplay. But >>> > I am not sure if you have read her non-fictional work. Well she didn't >>> > win booker for them but she won the "Sydney Peace Prize" and the >>> > "Sahitya Akademi award" which she politely refused. Her body of non >>> > fiction work is far greater (both in volume and quality) than her >>> > fictional work. I hope you have read her work. If not please read >>> > atleast the essential Roy viz "The greater common good", the "Algebra >>> > of Infinite justice", "Come September", Do Turkeys Enjoy >>> > Thanksgiving", "Peace is War", "Listening To Grasshoppers", "Shall We >>> > Leave It to the Experts?" and my favorite  “The Ladies have feelings >>> > so…”  You should definitely read the last one because it answers your >>> > query about the very questions that you have raised. >>> > >>> > Regarding a fiction writer being political, well all writers are >>> > political. That some chose to remain silent is also a political >>> > activity. That Ms. Roy choses to write her politics and throw it open >>> > to ideas and criticism is the best thing I really like about her. >>> > Besides she is also indulged in field activism, giving her voice to >>> > the voiceless and rooting for real democracy. >>> > >>> > Thanks >>> > r >>> > >>> > On 10/27/10, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: >>> >> Are you the moderator? Just curious again. You indeed have a big hand. >>> >> >>> >> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 2:31 PM, Tapas Ray [Gmail] >>> >> wrote: >>> >> >>> >>> ps: I mean, to Aditya. >>> >>> >>> >>> On 27 October 2010 14:30, Tapas Ray [Gmail] >>> wrote: >>> >>> > Really intelligent comment. Let's give him a big hand! >>> >>> > >>> >>> > On 27 October 2010 14:23, Aditya Raj Kaul >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>> >> Isn't she a Fiction writer? Or is she really a writer? Just curious. >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 2:01 PM, Rajkamal Goswami < >>> >>> rajkamalgoswami at gmail.com >>> >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> I am just in awe of this woman. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 10/27/10, Tapas Ray [Gmail] wrote: >>> >>> >>> > Pheeta, >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > No problem, and no need to apologise! >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > Best, >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > Tapas >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > On 27 October 2010 09:07, Pheeta Ram >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >> Dear Tapas >>> >>> >>> >> Actually the statement was sent to me by somebody. I forgot to >>> >>> >>> >> check >>> >>> if >>> >>> >>> it >>> >>> >>> >> had already been published online; that's why there was no link. >>> >>> Thanks >>> >>> >>> >> for >>> >>> >>> >> reminding me the etiquettes of responsible online publishing. >>> >>> >>> >> I shall take care next time. >>> >>> >>> >> Pheeta Ram >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 6:42 AM, Tapas Ray [Gmail] < >>> >>> tapasrayx at gmail.com >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> >> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Pheeta, >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks for this. I think it would be good if we gave the links >>> >>> along >>> >>> >>> >>> with any material from online sources that we might be posting. >>> >>> This >>> >>> >>> >>> one's is >>> >>> >>> >>> < >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/arundhati-roys-statement-on-possible-sedition-case-62566 >>> >>> >>> >. >>> >>> >>> >>> As for offline sources (e.g., printed books, etc.), a mention >>> of >>> >>> the >>> >>> >>> >>> source, as complete as possible, would be very helpful. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks again. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Tapas >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 27 October 2010 02:10, Pheeta Ram >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> > STATEMENT BY ARUNDHATI ROY >>> >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>> > I write this from Srinagar, Kashmir. This morning’s papers >>> say >>> >>> that I >>> >>> >>> >>> > may be arrested on charges of sedition for what I have said >>> at >>> >>> recent >>> >>> >>> >>> > public meetings on Kashmir. I said what millions of people >>> here >>> >>> say >>> >>> >>> >>> > every day. I said what I, as well as other commentators have >>> >>> written >>> >>> >>> >>> > and said for years. Anybody who cares to read the transcripts >>> of >>> >>> my >>> >>> >>> >>> > speeches will see that they were fundamentally a call for >>> >>> justice. I >>> >>> >>> >>> > spoke about justice for the people of Kashmir who live under >>> one >>> >>> of >>> >>> >>> >>> > the most brutal military occupations in the world; for >>> Kashmiri >>> >>> >>> >>> > Pandits who live out the tragedy of having been driven out of >>> >>> their >>> >>> >>> >>> > homeland; for Dalit soldiers killed in Kashmir whose graves I >>> >>> visited >>> >>> >>> >>> > on garbage heaps in their villages in Cuddalore; for the >>> Indian >>> >>> poor >>> >>> >>> >>> > who pay the price of this occupation in material ways and who >>> >>> >>> >>> > are >>> >>> now >>> >>> >>> >>> > learning to live in the terror of what is becoming a police >>> >>> state. >>> >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>> > Yesterday I traveled to Shopian, the apple-town in South >>> Kashmir >>> >>> >>> which >>> >>> >>> >>> > had remained closed for 47 days last year in protest against >>> the >>> >>> >>> >>> > brutal rape and murder of Asiya and Nilofer, the young women >>> >>> whose >>> >>> >>> >>> > bodies were found in a shallow stream near their homes and >>> whose >>> >>> >>> >>> > murderers have still not been brought to justice. I met >>> Shakeel, >>> >>> who >>> >>> >>> >>> > is Nilofer’s husband and Asiya’s brother.  We sat in a circle >>> of >>> >>> >>> >>> > people crazed with grief and anger who had lost hope that >>> they >>> >>> would >>> >>> >>> >>> > ever get ‘insaf’—justice—from India, and now believed that >>> >>> >>> >>> > Azadi—freedom— was their only hope. I met young stone pelters >>> >>> >>> >>> > who >>> >>> had >>> >>> >>> >>> > been shot through their eyes. I traveled with a young man who >>> >>> told me >>> >>> >>> >>> > how three of his friends, teenagers in Anantnag district, had >>> >>> been >>> >>> >>> >>> > taken into custody and had their finger-nails pulled out as >>> >>> >>> punishment >>> >>> >>> >>> > for throwing stones. >>> >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>> > In the papers some have accused me of giving ‘hate-speeches’, >>> of >>> >>> >>> >>> > wanting India to break up. On the contrary, what I say comes >>> >>> >>> >>> > from >>> >>> >>> love >>> >>> >>> >>> > and pride. It comes from not wanting people to be killed, >>> raped, >>> >>> >>> >>> > imprisoned or have their finger-nails pulled out in order to >>> >>> force >>> >>> >>> >>> > them to say they are Indians. It comes from wanting to live >>> in a >>> >>> >>> >>> > society that is striving to be a just one. Pity the nation >>> that >>> >>> has >>> >>> >>> to >>> >>> >>> >>> > silence its writers for speaking their minds. Pity the nation >>> >>> that >>> >>> >>> >>> > needs to jail those who ask for justice, while communal >>> killers, >>> >>> mass >>> >>> >>> >>> > murderers, corporate scamsters, looters, rapists, and those >>> who >>> >>> prey >>> >>> >>> >>> > on the poorest of the poor, roam free. >>> >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>> > Arundhati Roy >>> >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>> > October 26 2010 >>> >>> >>> >>> > _________________________________________ >>> >>> >>> >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> >>> >>> >>> > Critiques & Collaborations >>> >>> >>> >>> > To subscribe: send an email to >>> reader-list-request at sarai.netwith >>> >>> >>> >>> > subscribe in the subject header. >>> >>> >>> >>> > To unsubscribe: >>> >>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> >>> >>> >>> > List archive: < >>> https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >>> >>> >>> _________________________________________ >>> >>> >>> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> >>> >>> >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> >>> >>> >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith >>> >>> >>> >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> >>> >>> >>> To unsubscribe: >>> >>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> >>> >>> >>> List archive: < >>> https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> > _________________________________________ >>> >>> >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> >>> >>> > Critiques & Collaborations >>> >>> >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith >>> >>> >>> subscribe >>> >>> >>> > in the subject header. >>> >>> >>> > To unsubscribe: >>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> >>> >>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> Rajkamal >>> >>> >>> _________________________________________ >>> >>> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> >>> >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> >>> >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> >>> >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> >>> >>> To unsubscribe: >>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> >>> >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> _________________________________________ >>> >>> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> >>> >> Critiques & Collaborations >>> >>> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> >>> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> >>> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >>> > >>> >>> _________________________________________ >>> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >>> >>> >> _________________________________________ >>> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> >> Critiques & Collaborations >>> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe >>> >> in the subject header. >>> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> > >>> > >>> > -- >>> > Rajkamal >>> > _________________________________________ >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> > Critiques & Collaborations >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> http://indersalim.livejournal.com >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > Samvit Rawal > 9422037853 > ----------------------------------------------------------- > To err is human; to forgive, infrequent. >   - Franklin P. Adams > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From samvitr at gmail.com Thu Oct 28 15:14:17 2010 From: samvitr at gmail.com (Samvit) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 15:14:17 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Statement by Arundhati Roy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Subhash, I said "over the hill" because someone on this forum said that she was pretty. It was my freedom of speech. The "right to speak" does not belong to Arundhati and her friends only. In a similar way you have no right to talk about my "distorted education". Please practice what you try to preach. If truth is so bitter for you, I suggest you stay away from it. I am so surprised that people here are so worried about Geelani's right to speak but are against anyone else who doesn't toe their line. And yes, talking about gender in an open discussion is not a crime. Perhaps, those who have had a distorted education think that way. -Samvit On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 2:56 PM, Subhash wrote: > Samvit, you really need to learn how to respect and equate women - > using words like "over the hill" and pretty for anyone tells that you > have had a very distorted education. Why do you have to talk about the > gender of a person while talking of her politics? > > > > On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 6:58 PM, Samvit wrote: >> Anuradha, >> Couple of points:- >> 1. Arundati is over the hill, least to say that she is "pretty". You >> are making us believe that in India good looking woman are not >> respected. There are thousands of pretty girls who work all kind of >> time zones and they make us proud. Woman have proved themselves in all >> fields, even outpacing men. So that logic doesn't count. >> 2. It is a typical Gobellian technique to say that she is non-violent. >> She instigates people to all kind of violence. She  hops from city to >> city promoting her vision of an Utopian world. >> >> 2. And yes, you make it sound so simple about the Pandits. If you do >> not know the truth please do not make comments about people who have >> suffered like no Indian ever did. I just pray to God that you never >> have to face what the Pandits have gone thorugh. Imagine a situation >> where you have fanatics banging at you door and hunting for women in >> your family. You are ready to poison them before they fall prey to the >> fanatics. You call the police and you realize that they are siding >> with the zealots. The Indian state is impotent because we have khadi >> clad intellectuals who think helping the Pandits would be non-secular. >> The whole community is uprooted from the Valley while Sonia and Rajiv >> Gandhi are playing with snow en route to Kashmir. You do not even know >> half the story. So I suggest that you do some more research before you >> provide your expertise. >> >> Kashmir and Kashmiri are very complex, the Indian state is too naive >> to handle them. >> -Samvit >> >> >> >> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 6:35 PM, anuradha mukherjee wrote: >>> Inder, I think she makes for a soft target because she is a woman, she is >>> pretty, speaks her mind in a non-violent manner (without the help of gun or >>> crotch grabbing bodyguards). I may disagree with her approach on may issues, >>> may be not in essense but the way she articulates herself, but the woman is >>> courageous. It takes courage to defy the majority view like this. >>> And she gets attention, so those who berate her also share the limelight. >>> But I also disagree with the people who say "nothing happened, Jagmohan >>> created a bogey, Pandit left on their own", "Muslims wants them back" etc. >>> The last statement may or may not be true, but no community gives up its >>> hearths and homes and livelihoods overnight and chooses to live as refugees. >>> But the tragedy of Kashmir is that its daily suffering forces it to discount >>> the sufferings of its Hindu brothers. If you say Azadi, please do not say >>> that Pandits had it easy either (may be those with resources did). >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 5:47 PM, Inder Salim wrote: >>> >>>> I guess people in India will read her only after she gets Nobel for >>>> literature. >>>> which she deserves >>>> >>>> >>>> love >>>> is >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 3:14 PM, Rajkamal Goswami >>>> wrote: >>>> > Dear Aditya >>>> > >>>> > I am sure yo know about her fictional work 1 novel & 1 screenplay. But >>>> > I am not sure if you have read her non-fictional work. Well she didn't >>>> > win booker for them but she won the "Sydney Peace Prize" and the >>>> > "Sahitya Akademi award" which she politely refused. Her body of non >>>> > fiction work is far greater (both in volume and quality) than her >>>> > fictional work. I hope you have read her work. If not please read >>>> > atleast the essential Roy viz "The greater common good", the "Algebra >>>> > of Infinite justice", "Come September", Do Turkeys Enjoy >>>> > Thanksgiving", "Peace is War", "Listening To Grasshoppers", "Shall We >>>> > Leave It to the Experts?" and my favorite  “The Ladies have feelings >>>> > so…”  You should definitely read the last one because it answers your >>>> > query about the very questions that you have raised. >>>> > >>>> > Regarding a fiction writer being political, well all writers are >>>> > political. That some chose to remain silent is also a political >>>> > activity. That Ms. Roy choses to write her politics and throw it open >>>> > to ideas and criticism is the best thing I really like about her. >>>> > Besides she is also indulged in field activism, giving her voice to >>>> > the voiceless and rooting for real democracy. >>>> > >>>> > Thanks >>>> > r >>>> > >>>> > On 10/27/10, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: >>>> >> Are you the moderator? Just curious again. You indeed have a big hand. >>>> >> >>>> >> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 2:31 PM, Tapas Ray [Gmail] >>>> >> wrote: >>>> >> >>>> >>> ps: I mean, to Aditya. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> On 27 October 2010 14:30, Tapas Ray [Gmail] >>>> wrote: >>>> >>> > Really intelligent comment. Let's give him a big hand! >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> > On 27 October 2010 14:23, Aditya Raj Kaul >>>> >>> wrote: >>>> >>> >> Isn't she a Fiction writer? Or is she really a writer? Just curious. >>>> >>> >> >>>> >>> >> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 2:01 PM, Rajkamal Goswami < >>>> >>> rajkamalgoswami at gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> wrote: >>>> >>> >> >>>> >>> >>> I am just in awe of this woman. >>>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> On 10/27/10, Tapas Ray [Gmail] wrote: >>>> >>> >>> > Pheeta, >>>> >>> >>> > >>>> >>> >>> > No problem, and no need to apologise! >>>> >>> >>> > >>>> >>> >>> > Best, >>>> >>> >>> > >>>> >>> >>> > Tapas >>>> >>> >>> > >>>> >>> >>> > On 27 October 2010 09:07, Pheeta Ram >>>> wrote: >>>> >>> >>> >> Dear Tapas >>>> >>> >>> >> Actually the statement was sent to me by somebody. I forgot to >>>> >>> >>> >> check >>>> >>> if >>>> >>> >>> it >>>> >>> >>> >> had already been published online; that's why there was no link. >>>> >>> Thanks >>>> >>> >>> >> for >>>> >>> >>> >> reminding me the etiquettes of responsible online publishing. >>>> >>> >>> >> I shall take care next time. >>>> >>> >>> >> Pheeta Ram >>>> >>> >>> >> >>>> >>> >>> >> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 6:42 AM, Tapas Ray [Gmail] < >>>> >>> tapasrayx at gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> > >>>> >>> >>> >> wrote: >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> Pheeta, >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks for this. I think it would be good if we gave the links >>>> >>> along >>>> >>> >>> >>> with any material from online sources that we might be posting. >>>> >>> This >>>> >>> >>> >>> one's is >>>> >>> >>> >>> < >>>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/arundhati-roys-statement-on-possible-sedition-case-62566 >>>> >>> >>> >. >>>> >>> >>> >>> As for offline sources (e.g., printed books, etc.), a mention >>>> of >>>> >>> the >>>> >>> >>> >>> source, as complete as possible, would be very helpful. >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks again. >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> Tapas >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> On 27 October 2010 02:10, Pheeta Ram >>>> wrote: >>>> >>> >>> >>> > STATEMENT BY ARUNDHATI ROY >>>> >>> >>> >>> > >>>> >>> >>> >>> > I write this from Srinagar, Kashmir. This morning’s papers >>>> say >>>> >>> that I >>>> >>> >>> >>> > may be arrested on charges of sedition for what I have said >>>> at >>>> >>> recent >>>> >>> >>> >>> > public meetings on Kashmir. I said what millions of people >>>> here >>>> >>> say >>>> >>> >>> >>> > every day. I said what I, as well as other commentators have >>>> >>> written >>>> >>> >>> >>> > and said for years. Anybody who cares to read the transcripts >>>> of >>>> >>> my >>>> >>> >>> >>> > speeches will see that they were fundamentally a call for >>>> >>> justice. I >>>> >>> >>> >>> > spoke about justice for the people of Kashmir who live under >>>> one >>>> >>> of >>>> >>> >>> >>> > the most brutal military occupations in the world; for >>>> Kashmiri >>>> >>> >>> >>> > Pandits who live out the tragedy of having been driven out of >>>> >>> their >>>> >>> >>> >>> > homeland; for Dalit soldiers killed in Kashmir whose graves I >>>> >>> visited >>>> >>> >>> >>> > on garbage heaps in their villages in Cuddalore; for the >>>> Indian >>>> >>> poor >>>> >>> >>> >>> > who pay the price of this occupation in material ways and who >>>> >>> >>> >>> > are >>>> >>> now >>>> >>> >>> >>> > learning to live in the terror of what is becoming a police >>>> >>> state. >>>> >>> >>> >>> > >>>> >>> >>> >>> > Yesterday I traveled to Shopian, the apple-town in South >>>> Kashmir >>>> >>> >>> which >>>> >>> >>> >>> > had remained closed for 47 days last year in protest against >>>> the >>>> >>> >>> >>> > brutal rape and murder of Asiya and Nilofer, the young women >>>> >>> whose >>>> >>> >>> >>> > bodies were found in a shallow stream near their homes and >>>> whose >>>> >>> >>> >>> > murderers have still not been brought to justice. I met >>>> Shakeel, >>>> >>> who >>>> >>> >>> >>> > is Nilofer’s husband and Asiya’s brother.  We sat in a circle >>>> of >>>> >>> >>> >>> > people crazed with grief and anger who had lost hope that >>>> they >>>> >>> would >>>> >>> >>> >>> > ever get ‘insaf’—justice—from India, and now believed that >>>> >>> >>> >>> > Azadi—freedom— was their only hope. I met young stone pelters >>>> >>> >>> >>> > who >>>> >>> had >>>> >>> >>> >>> > been shot through their eyes. I traveled with a young man who >>>> >>> told me >>>> >>> >>> >>> > how three of his friends, teenagers in Anantnag district, had >>>> >>> been >>>> >>> >>> >>> > taken into custody and had their finger-nails pulled out as >>>> >>> >>> punishment >>>> >>> >>> >>> > for throwing stones. >>>> >>> >>> >>> > >>>> >>> >>> >>> > In the papers some have accused me of giving ‘hate-speeches’, >>>> of >>>> >>> >>> >>> > wanting India to break up. On the contrary, what I say comes >>>> >>> >>> >>> > from >>>> >>> >>> love >>>> >>> >>> >>> > and pride. It comes from not wanting people to be killed, >>>> raped, >>>> >>> >>> >>> > imprisoned or have their finger-nails pulled out in order to >>>> >>> force >>>> >>> >>> >>> > them to say they are Indians. It comes from wanting to live >>>> in a >>>> >>> >>> >>> > society that is striving to be a just one. Pity the nation >>>> that >>>> >>> has >>>> >>> >>> to >>>> >>> >>> >>> > silence its writers for speaking their minds. Pity the nation >>>> >>> that >>>> >>> >>> >>> > needs to jail those who ask for justice, while communal >>>> killers, >>>> >>> mass >>>> >>> >>> >>> > murderers, corporate scamsters, looters, rapists, and those >>>> who >>>> >>> prey >>>> >>> >>> >>> > on the poorest of the poor, roam free. >>>> >>> >>> >>> > >>>> >>> >>> >>> > Arundhati Roy >>>> >>> >>> >>> > >>>> >>> >>> >>> > October 26 2010 >>>> >>> >>> >>> > _________________________________________ >>>> >>> >>> >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> >>> >>> >>> > Critiques & Collaborations >>>> >>> >>> >>> > To subscribe: send an email to >>>> reader-list-request at sarai.netwith >>>> >>> >>> >>> > subscribe in the subject header. >>>> >>> >>> >>> > To unsubscribe: >>>> >>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> >>> >>> >>> > List archive: < >>>> https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> >>> >>> >>> _________________________________________ >>>> >>> >>> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> >>> >>> >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> >>> >>> >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith >>>> >>> >>> >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>> >>> >>> >>> To unsubscribe: >>>> >>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> >>> >>> >>> List archive: < >>>> https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> >>> >>> >> >>>> >>> >>> > _________________________________________ >>>> >>> >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> >>> >>> > Critiques & Collaborations >>>> >>> >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith >>>> >>> >>> subscribe >>>> >>> >>> > in the subject header. >>>> >>> >>> > To unsubscribe: >>>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> >>> >>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>>> >>> >>> Rajkamal >>>> >>> >>> _________________________________________ >>>> >>> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> >>> >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> >>> >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> >>> >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>> >>> >>> To unsubscribe: >>>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> >>> >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >> _________________________________________ >>>> >>> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> >>> >> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> >>> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>> >>> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> >>> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> _________________________________________ >>>> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>> >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> >>> >>>> >> _________________________________________ >>>> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> >> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> subscribe >>>> >> in the subject header. >>>> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > -- >>>> > Rajkamal >>>> > _________________________________________ >>>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> > Critiques & Collaborations >>>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> http://indersalim.livejournal.com >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> -- >> Samvit Rawal >> 9422037853 >> ----------------------------------------------------------- >> To err is human; to forgive, infrequent. >>   - Franklin P. Adams >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- Samvit Rawal 9422037853 ----------------------------------------------------------- To err is human; to forgive, infrequent.   - Franklin P. Adams From aliyasnewaddress at gmail.com Thu Oct 28 16:34:15 2010 From: aliyasnewaddress at gmail.com (aliya pabani) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 16:34:15 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Statement by Arundhati Roy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Just a thought to add: I find that the sentence fragment *"...is not a crime"* is often used to justify words and actions that the speaker her/him/everythingself recognizes as being at the very least intolerant and at the very most, inhumane. There seem to be many acts being perpetrated in the world today, that are also *"not crimes"*: For instance, A Florida pastor burns Qurans for the purposes of keeping Muslims in check. Free speech is invoked. *"Not a crime"*. Donald Rumsfeld deems it *"not a crime" *for a member of the American military to watch torture tactics by Iraqi police on Iraqis that would be considered heinous crimes by an American *"standard*" for human rights...as long as they report the incident later. And lastly, and unsurprisingly, the recent Wikileaks document detailing the unaccounted for Iraqi civilian deaths at the hands of the American military--*no (war) crime *leveled on those responsible yet, though in this case, somehow Wikileaks founder, Julian Assange's right to free speech is conveniently overpowered by the government's right to protect classified documents. --------------------------- Slippery slope, this *"not a crime". *------------------------------ My question is, instead of appealing to the law for the moral defensibility of our statements and actions, might we not instead appeal to our own deepest notions of better communal living and compel the law to fall in line? all the best, Aliya. On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 3:14 PM, Samvit wrote: > Subhash, > I said "over the hill" because someone on this forum said that she was > pretty. It was my freedom of speech. The "right to speak" does not > belong to Arundhati and her friends only. > In a similar way you have no right to talk about my "distorted > education". Please practice what you try to preach. If truth is so > bitter for you, I suggest you stay away from it. > I am so surprised that people here are so worried about Geelani's > right to speak but are against anyone else who doesn't toe their line. > And yes, talking about gender in an open discussion is not a crime. > Perhaps, those who have had a distorted education think that way. > -Samvit > > On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 2:56 PM, Subhash wrote: > > Samvit, you really need to learn how to respect and equate women - > > using words like "over the hill" and pretty for anyone tells that you > > have had a very distorted education. Why do you have to talk about the > > gender of a person while talking of her politics? > > > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 6:58 PM, Samvit wrote: > >> Anuradha, > >> Couple of points:- > >> 1. Arundati is over the hill, least to say that she is "pretty". You > >> are making us believe that in India good looking woman are not > >> respected. There are thousands of pretty girls who work all kind of > >> time zones and they make us proud. Woman have proved themselves in all > >> fields, even outpacing men. So that logic doesn't count. > >> 2. It is a typical Gobellian technique to say that she is non-violent. > >> She instigates people to all kind of violence. She hops from city to > >> city promoting her vision of an Utopian world. > >> > >> 2. And yes, you make it sound so simple about the Pandits. If you do > >> not know the truth please do not make comments about people who have > >> suffered like no Indian ever did. I just pray to God that you never > >> have to face what the Pandits have gone thorugh. Imagine a situation > >> where you have fanatics banging at you door and hunting for women in > >> your family. You are ready to poison them before they fall prey to the > >> fanatics. You call the police and you realize that they are siding > >> with the zealots. The Indian state is impotent because we have khadi > >> clad intellectuals who think helping the Pandits would be non-secular. > >> The whole community is uprooted from the Valley while Sonia and Rajiv > >> Gandhi are playing with snow en route to Kashmir. You do not even know > >> half the story. So I suggest that you do some more research before you > >> provide your expertise. > >> > >> Kashmir and Kashmiri are very complex, the Indian state is too naive > >> to handle them. > >> -Samvit > >> > >> > >> > >> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 6:35 PM, anuradha mukherjee > wrote: > >>> Inder, I think she makes for a soft target because she is a woman, she > is > >>> pretty, speaks her mind in a non-violent manner (without the help of > gun or > >>> crotch grabbing bodyguards). I may disagree with her approach on may > issues, > >>> may be not in essense but the way she articulates herself, but the > woman is > >>> courageous. It takes courage to defy the majority view like this. > >>> And she gets attention, so those who berate her also share the > limelight. > >>> But I also disagree with the people who say "nothing happened, Jagmohan > >>> created a bogey, Pandit left on their own", "Muslims wants them back" > etc. > >>> The last statement may or may not be true, but no community gives up > its > >>> hearths and homes and livelihoods overnight and chooses to live as > refugees. > >>> But the tragedy of Kashmir is that its daily suffering forces it to > discount > >>> the sufferings of its Hindu brothers. If you say Azadi, please do not > say > >>> that Pandits had it easy either (may be those with resources did). > >>> > >>> > >>> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 5:47 PM, Inder Salim > wrote: > >>> > >>>> I guess people in India will read her only after she gets Nobel for > >>>> literature. > >>>> which she deserves > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> love > >>>> is > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 3:14 PM, Rajkamal Goswami > >>>> wrote: > >>>> > Dear Aditya > >>>> > > >>>> > I am sure yo know about her fictional work 1 novel & 1 screenplay. > But > >>>> > I am not sure if you have read her non-fictional work. Well she > didn't > >>>> > win booker for them but she won the "Sydney Peace Prize" and the > >>>> > "Sahitya Akademi award" which she politely refused. Her body of non > >>>> > fiction work is far greater (both in volume and quality) than her > >>>> > fictional work. I hope you have read her work. If not please read > >>>> > atleast the essential Roy viz "The greater common good", the > "Algebra > >>>> > of Infinite justice", "Come September", Do Turkeys Enjoy > >>>> > Thanksgiving", "Peace is War", "Listening To Grasshoppers", "Shall > We > >>>> > Leave It to the Experts?" and my favorite “The Ladies have feelings > >>>> > so…” You should definitely read the last one because it answers > your > >>>> > query about the very questions that you have raised. > >>>> > > >>>> > Regarding a fiction writer being political, well all writers are > >>>> > political. That some chose to remain silent is also a political > >>>> > activity. That Ms. Roy choses to write her politics and throw it > open > >>>> > to ideas and criticism is the best thing I really like about her. > >>>> > Besides she is also indulged in field activism, giving her voice to > >>>> > the voiceless and rooting for real democracy. > >>>> > > >>>> > Thanks > >>>> > r > >>>> > > >>>> > On 10/27/10, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > >>>> >> Are you the moderator? Just curious again. You indeed have a big > hand. > >>>> >> > >>>> >> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 2:31 PM, Tapas Ray [Gmail] > >>>> >> wrote: > >>>> >> > >>>> >>> ps: I mean, to Aditya. > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> On 27 October 2010 14:30, Tapas Ray [Gmail] > >>>> wrote: > >>>> >>> > Really intelligent comment. Let's give him a big hand! > >>>> >>> > > >>>> >>> > On 27 October 2010 14:23, Aditya Raj Kaul < > kauladityaraj at gmail.com> > >>>> >>> wrote: > >>>> >>> >> Isn't she a Fiction writer? Or is she really a writer? Just > curious. > >>>> >>> >> > >>>> >>> >> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 2:01 PM, Rajkamal Goswami < > >>>> >>> rajkamalgoswami at gmail.com > >>>> >>> >>> wrote: > >>>> >>> >> > >>>> >>> >>> I am just in awe of this woman. > >>>> >>> >>> > >>>> >>> >>> On 10/27/10, Tapas Ray [Gmail] wrote: > >>>> >>> >>> > Pheeta, > >>>> >>> >>> > > >>>> >>> >>> > No problem, and no need to apologise! > >>>> >>> >>> > > >>>> >>> >>> > Best, > >>>> >>> >>> > > >>>> >>> >>> > Tapas > >>>> >>> >>> > > >>>> >>> >>> > On 27 October 2010 09:07, Pheeta Ram > >>>> wrote: > >>>> >>> >>> >> Dear Tapas > >>>> >>> >>> >> Actually the statement was sent to me by somebody. I forgot > to > >>>> >>> >>> >> check > >>>> >>> if > >>>> >>> >>> it > >>>> >>> >>> >> had already been published online; that's why there was no > link. > >>>> >>> Thanks > >>>> >>> >>> >> for > >>>> >>> >>> >> reminding me the etiquettes of responsible online > publishing. > >>>> >>> >>> >> I shall take care next time. > >>>> >>> >>> >> Pheeta Ram > >>>> >>> >>> >> > >>>> >>> >>> >> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 6:42 AM, Tapas Ray [Gmail] < > >>>> >>> tapasrayx at gmail.com > >>>> >>> >>> > > >>>> >>> >>> >> wrote: > >>>> >>> >>> >>> > >>>> >>> >>> >>> Pheeta, > >>>> >>> >>> >>> > >>>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks for this. I think it would be good if we gave the > links > >>>> >>> along > >>>> >>> >>> >>> with any material from online sources that we might be > posting. > >>>> >>> This > >>>> >>> >>> >>> one's is > >>>> >>> >>> >>> < > >>>> >>> >>> > >>>> >>> > >>>> > http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/arundhati-roys-statement-on-possible-sedition-case-62566 > >>>> >>> >>> >. > >>>> >>> >>> >>> As for offline sources (e.g., printed books, etc.), a > mention > >>>> of > >>>> >>> the > >>>> >>> >>> >>> source, as complete as possible, would be very helpful. > >>>> >>> >>> >>> > >>>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks again. > >>>> >>> >>> >>> > >>>> >>> >>> >>> Tapas > >>>> >>> >>> >>> > >>>> >>> >>> >>> > >>>> >>> >>> >>> On 27 October 2010 02:10, Pheeta Ram < > pheeta.ram at gmail.com> > >>>> wrote: > >>>> >>> >>> >>> > STATEMENT BY ARUNDHATI ROY > >>>> >>> >>> >>> > > >>>> >>> >>> >>> > I write this from Srinagar, Kashmir. This morning’s > papers > >>>> say > >>>> >>> that I > >>>> >>> >>> >>> > may be arrested on charges of sedition for what I have > said > >>>> at > >>>> >>> recent > >>>> >>> >>> >>> > public meetings on Kashmir. I said what millions of > people > >>>> here > >>>> >>> say > >>>> >>> >>> >>> > every day. I said what I, as well as other commentators > have > >>>> >>> written > >>>> >>> >>> >>> > and said for years. Anybody who cares to read the > transcripts > >>>> of > >>>> >>> my > >>>> >>> >>> >>> > speeches will see that they were fundamentally a call > for > >>>> >>> justice. I > >>>> >>> >>> >>> > spoke about justice for the people of Kashmir who live > under > >>>> one > >>>> >>> of > >>>> >>> >>> >>> > the most brutal military occupations in the world; for > >>>> Kashmiri > >>>> >>> >>> >>> > Pandits who live out the tragedy of having been driven > out of > >>>> >>> their > >>>> >>> >>> >>> > homeland; for Dalit soldiers killed in Kashmir whose > graves I > >>>> >>> visited > >>>> >>> >>> >>> > on garbage heaps in their villages in Cuddalore; for the > >>>> Indian > >>>> >>> poor > >>>> >>> >>> >>> > who pay the price of this occupation in material ways > and who > >>>> >>> >>> >>> > are > >>>> >>> now > >>>> >>> >>> >>> > learning to live in the terror of what is becoming a > police > >>>> >>> state. > >>>> >>> >>> >>> > > >>>> >>> >>> >>> > Yesterday I traveled to Shopian, the apple-town in South > >>>> Kashmir > >>>> >>> >>> which > >>>> >>> >>> >>> > had remained closed for 47 days last year in protest > against > >>>> the > >>>> >>> >>> >>> > brutal rape and murder of Asiya and Nilofer, the young > women > >>>> >>> whose > >>>> >>> >>> >>> > bodies were found in a shallow stream near their homes > and > >>>> whose > >>>> >>> >>> >>> > murderers have still not been brought to justice. I met > >>>> Shakeel, > >>>> >>> who > >>>> >>> >>> >>> > is Nilofer’s husband and Asiya’s brother. We sat in a > circle > >>>> of > >>>> >>> >>> >>> > people crazed with grief and anger who had lost hope > that > >>>> they > >>>> >>> would > >>>> >>> >>> >>> > ever get ‘insaf’—justice—from India, and now believed > that > >>>> >>> >>> >>> > Azadi—freedom— was their only hope. I met young stone > pelters > >>>> >>> >>> >>> > who > >>>> >>> had > >>>> >>> >>> >>> > been shot through their eyes. I traveled with a young > man who > >>>> >>> told me > >>>> >>> >>> >>> > how three of his friends, teenagers in Anantnag > district, had > >>>> >>> been > >>>> >>> >>> >>> > taken into custody and had their finger-nails pulled out > as > >>>> >>> >>> punishment > >>>> >>> >>> >>> > for throwing stones. > >>>> >>> >>> >>> > > >>>> >>> >>> >>> > In the papers some have accused me of giving > ‘hate-speeches’, > >>>> of > >>>> >>> >>> >>> > wanting India to break up. On the contrary, what I say > comes > >>>> >>> >>> >>> > from > >>>> >>> >>> love > >>>> >>> >>> >>> > and pride. It comes from not wanting people to be > killed, > >>>> raped, > >>>> >>> >>> >>> > imprisoned or have their finger-nails pulled out in > order to > >>>> >>> force > >>>> >>> >>> >>> > them to say they are Indians. It comes from wanting to > live > >>>> in a > >>>> >>> >>> >>> > society that is striving to be a just one. Pity the > nation > >>>> that > >>>> >>> has > >>>> >>> >>> to > >>>> >>> >>> >>> > silence its writers for speaking their minds. Pity the > nation > >>>> >>> that > >>>> >>> >>> >>> > needs to jail those who ask for justice, while communal > >>>> killers, > >>>> >>> mass > >>>> >>> >>> >>> > murderers, corporate scamsters, looters, rapists, and > those > >>>> who > >>>> >>> prey > >>>> >>> >>> >>> > on the poorest of the poor, roam free. > >>>> >>> >>> >>> > > >>>> >>> >>> >>> > Arundhati Roy > >>>> >>> >>> >>> > > >>>> >>> >>> >>> > October 26 2010 > >>>> >>> >>> >>> > _________________________________________ > >>>> >>> >>> >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > >>>> >>> >>> >>> > Critiques & Collaborations > >>>> >>> >>> >>> > To subscribe: send an email to > >>>> reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > >>>> >>> >>> >>> > subscribe in the subject header. > >>>> >>> >>> >>> > To unsubscribe: > >>>> >>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>>> >>> >>> >>> > List archive: < > >>>> https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >>>> >>> >>> >>> _________________________________________ > >>>> >>> >>> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > >>>> >>> >>> >>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>>> >>> >>> >>> To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > >>>> >>> >>> >>> subscribe in the subject header. > >>>> >>> >>> >>> To unsubscribe: > >>>> >>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>>> >>> >>> >>> List archive: < > >>>> https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >>>> >>> >>> >> > >>>> >>> >>> > _________________________________________ > >>>> >>> >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>>> >>> >>> > Critiques & Collaborations > >>>> >>> >>> > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > >>>> >>> >>> subscribe > >>>> >>> >>> > in the subject header. > >>>> >>> >>> > To unsubscribe: > >>>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>>> >>> >>> > List archive: < > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >>>> >>> >>> > >>>> >>> >>> > >>>> >>> >>> -- > >>>> >>> >>> Rajkamal > >>>> >>> >>> _________________________________________ > >>>> >>> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>>> >>> >>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>>> >>> >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > >>>> >>> >>> subscribe in the subject header. > >>>> >>> >>> To unsubscribe: > >>>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>>> >>> >>> List archive: < > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >>>> >>> >>> > >>>> >>> >> _________________________________________ > >>>> >>> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>>> >>> >> Critiques & Collaborations > >>>> >>> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > >>>> >>> subscribe in the subject header. > >>>> >>> >> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>>> >>> >> List archive: < > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >>>> >>> > > >>>> >>> _________________________________________ > >>>> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>>> >>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>>> >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>>> >>> subscribe in the subject header. > >>>> >>> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>>> >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >>>> >>> > >>>> >> _________________________________________ > >>>> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>>> >> Critiques & Collaborations > >>>> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>>> subscribe > >>>> >> in the subject header. > >>>> >> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>>> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > -- > >>>> > Rajkamal > >>>> > _________________________________________ > >>>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>>> > Critiques & Collaborations > >>>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>>> subscribe in the subject header. > >>>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> > >>>> http://indersalim.livejournal.com > >>>> _________________________________________ > >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>>> subscribe in the subject header. > >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >>> _________________________________________ > >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Samvit Rawal > >> 9422037853 > >> ----------------------------------------------------------- > >> To err is human; to forgive, infrequent. > >> - Franklin P. Adams > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > -- > Samvit Rawal > 9422037853 > ----------------------------------------------------------- > To err is human; to forgive, infrequent. > - Franklin P. Adams > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- Aliya Pabani http://aliyapabani.tk http://cema.srishti.ac.in From javedmasoo at gmail.com Thu Oct 28 16:36:13 2010 From: javedmasoo at gmail.com (Javed) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 16:36:13 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] My 75 days of horror at the hands of Mumbai ATS Message-ID: My 75 days of horror at the hands of Mumbai ATS (Oct 18, 2010) My name is Ehtesham Qutubudin Siddiqui, age: 29 years, occupation: Book Publisher. I was born in Uttar Pradesh in a poor family. In the year 1996, I moved to Mumbai for further education. My residential address in Mumbai is 202, Safiya Manzil, Naya Nagar, Mira Road (East), Thane - 401107. I completed my XII standard through Maharashtra College, Belasis Road, Mumbai Central. I took admission in Narayan Nagu Patil Engineering College, in Pen. Raigad through Mumbai University in Chemical Engineering course in 1998. I used to stay in a hostel near the campus. However during my vacation and holidays, I used to visit Mira Road which is my residential permanent address. On 27 September, 2001 while I was travelling from Pen to visit my house, on the way, I thought of visiting a library situated at Feetwala Compound, Kurla (West) Mumbai, for reading some books. That evening around 08:00 pm, some policemen came in the library and took me along with seven other people to Kurla Police Station. That did not tell me the reason for detention, and arrested me in the offence of u/s 10&13 of unlawful activities (prevention) Act 1967. They informed me that students Islamic Movement of India has been declared as a banned organisation. They informed me about the offence only after the arrest i.e. when they produced me before Magistrate of Kurla Court. The truth is that I was never associated with any organisation which is mentioned above. The Hon'ble magistrate of Kurla court had released me on bail of Rs. 3000/- cash. However the Kurla police, instead of releasing me took me to the police station and put me inside the lock up and said that I have been arrested in another case of the same offence. Kurla police has framed me in false cases which I had nothing to do with, and they have spoilt my reputation in society. In regard to second false case, the police took 15 day custody. After 15 days, I was granted bail of Rs. 8000/- security. As it was conditional bail. I could not continue my studies which resulted in the end of engineering course. After that, I learned Desktop Publishing on my Personal Computer and started a DTP business from my house in Mira Road know as "Graphic Point". In March 2004, I started a publishing company known as "Shahadah Publishing House" publishing Islamic literature and books on general knowledge. In July 2003, I had taken admission in B Sc to complete my graduation through Indira Gandhi National Open University. But due to my arresting and false implication in 11th July 2006, Mumbai serial train blast case my whole career has gone for a toss. Due to old record in Kurla police station, it had become a regular routine of detaining me. Every time or whenever any incident took place in Mumbai, I was called by police for a formal interrogation. Beside those two false cases implemented by Kurla police. I do not have any other criminal record as I was living a normal life in Mumbai. On 11 July, 2006, serial bomb blast took place on Western Railway during peak hours, that time I was at home. When I learned about the blast at Mira Road, I went to the blast site to help the victims. I know very well that police will come to me for formal enquiry like the regular police routine, that had been a trend since 2001. Hence senior police Inspector namely Murade of Mira Road police station came to my house on 13 July, 2006 in evening time and asked me to come to the police station on the next day. On 14 July, 2006 at 11:00 am, I went to Mira Road police station to meet Sr. PI Murade. He questioned me about my whereabouts and asked me for my phone number, which I gave him (28115084) and left the police station. He also told me that if required for further investigation I will be called. On 24 July, 2006, in the morning around 11:00 am, police sub-Inspector Sunil Mane of Anti-Terrorism Squad (ATS) unit-II, visited my house and asked me to come at Nagpada ATS office, the same before 03:00 pm. That day I went to Nagpada ATS office at around 02:00 pm. I met PSI Sunil Mane and he told me that senior official will me to interrogate me so they will take Bhoiwada ATS office. Upon reaching Bhoiwada ATS office, PSI Sunil Mane took me to the second floor in lock up, there he called PI Vilas Joshi, PI Dinesh Ahir, PSI Shailesh Gaekwad and other beating me with belts and sticks and continued beating me till evening. Later they took me from Bhoiwada to Nagpada handcuffed. They did not allow me to inform my parents or any of my relatives. When I was taken from Nagpada to Bhoiwada, before taking me inside the lock up, they emptied my pockets during my physical search. They took away my mobile, ATM card, PAN card and Rs. 25.000/- cash, which I was carrying off, with which I wanted to purchase a personal computer. PSI Sunil Mane only made entry of ATM card, PAN card and mobile in panchnama. However they distributed the Rs. 25000/- cash among themselves. On 29 July, 2006, When PSI Sunil Mane repreparing panchnama, I noticed that he did not mentioned the Rs. 25.000 cash in the recovery. Upon which I asked him about the money. I was surprised by his reply: "bhool ja be tere paise."! Anti-Terrorism Squad (ATS) detained me illegally from 24 July, 2006 to 29 July, 2006, as I was not produced before any Magistrate till 29 July, 2006. During this period ATS officers continued beating me for several hours everyday. ATS officers search my house in my absence, as I was in their custody. They took all the books and literature which was published recently and took into their custody. ATS officers taken all valuable things from house, which I saw in ATS office and which included computer, printer, drill machine, tape recorder, Rs. 10.000/- cash, blankets etc. ATS officers chose two books namely "Jihadi Azkar" and "Islam ki Rooh-Jihad fi Sabilillah", which described basic fundamentals of Jihad in Islam, and contains verses of Qur'an and saying of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), and does not contain any inflammatory material and is easily available in the market. On the basis of these two books they arrested me on 29 July, 2006 and produced me before Additional Chief Metropolitan Magistrate, 2nd Court, Mazgaon, Mumbai and took 15 days police custody u/s 10&13 of unlawful activities (prevention) Act 1967. I became surprised when charge sheet was filed and one book namely "jihad fi sabilillah-kiyon" added in recovery which is not published by me. I wanted to tell many things to magistrate about the torture and illegal detention but ATS threatened me not to say anything to magistrate or else they were torture me more severely using third degree torture methods, therefore I could not tell any thing to the magistrate. ATS officer took me to unit-II office and they started beating me, they never told me any thing that why they had arrested me but kept beating me. While torturing they used to say that "to musalman hai isliye tere ko mar rahe hain" with every blow they used to abuse my religion and said "tere ko yehan koi nahi bachayega" on 03 August, 2006 I was cruelly tortured by PSI Shailesh Gaekwad, PSI Sunil Mane and PI Vilas Joshi and asked me to accept the said crime of bomb blast in front of senior officials of ATS because of the torture I agreed to do whatever the ATS officers told me to do. After which they tookme to ATS head office, where ATS Chief KP Raghuvanshi and DCP Naval Bajaj were seated in the office. There in front of these senior, I complained about the torture that PSI Shailesh Gaekwad, PSI Sunil Mane and PI Vilas Joshi had done, and I also told ATS chief KP Raghuvanshi, that I am innocent and they are trying to involve me in the blast case. But to my surprise KP Raghuvanshi slapped me and told the officers that this torture was not enough and asked them to take me to Bhoiwada and beat me red, blue and black. I completely lost faith in the senior most officers as well as junior officers because this fraud of framing innocent people was ordered by senior officers of ATS including ATS chief. ... I Ehtesham Qutubuddin Siddiqui solemnly affirm that whatever has been stated here above is true and correct as per my knowledge and belief. http://twocircles.net/2010oct18/my_75_days_horror_hands_mumbai_ats.html From aalok.aima at yahoo.com Thu Oct 28 18:03:02 2010 From: aalok.aima at yahoo.com (Aalok Aima) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 05:33:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] The Islamic agenda of Syed Ali Shah Geelani (for Kashmir) Message-ID: <558231.73608.qm@web120209.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> i was trying to check on the web whether this is a recent or a dated interview   i came across across many lines in geelani's answer to the first question that are identical to those in an article in 'gulf news' of 15th aug 2010 by one Tariq A. Al Maeena http://gulfnews.com/opinions/columnists/politicians-cannot-keep-on-ignoring-kashmiri-voices-1.668170   between geelani, yoginder sikand and tariq, one of them has plagiarised from the other ....  some quotes from geelani's answers:   "Islam, as I said, is a complete way of life. No other path is acceptable to God. So, in the absence of an Islamic polity, it is difficult for Muslims to lead their lives entirely in accordance with the rules of Islam, which apply to social affairs as much as they do to personal affairs. For instance, Muslims in Kashmir under Indian rule live in a system where alcohol, interest and immorality are rife, so how can we lead our lives completely in accordance with Islam? Of course, Muslim minorities are Muslims, too, but their duty must be to work to establish an Islamic dispensation in the lands where they live so that they can lead their lives fully in accordance with Islam and its laws."   "I admit that there are weaknesses in Pakistan, but these can be addressed. India has a secular system, which we can under no condition accept."   (about Kashmir being an independent state) "It is an Indian ploy, because India does not want to see Pakistan strengthened, which it would be if Jammu and Kashmir joins Pakistan. The slogan of Azadi is aimed at weakening Pakistan. Independence would result in a territory that would have been a natural part of Pakistan being taken away from it. But, then, compared to staying with India, independence is a lesser evil."   ........... aalok aima     http://www.newageislam.com/NewAgeIslamInterview_1.aspx?ArticleID=3590   27 Oct 2010, NewAgeIslam.Com   India has a secular system, which we Kashmiris can under no condition accept: Syed Ali Shah Geelani   Syed Ali Shah Geelani of the Jamaat-e Islami of Jammu and Kashmir is a veteran Kashmiri politician. Presently, he heads the Tehrik-e Hurriyat-e Jammu Kashmir. He talks about the Kashmir conflict and its possible solution in this exclusive interview with Yoginder Sikand, NewAgeIslam.com:   Q: In your writings, and in those of other similar Islamist ideologues, the Kashmir conflict is often described as a war between Islam and ‘disbelief’. Do you really think it is so? Is it not a political struggle or a nationalist struggle, actually? A: The Kashmir dispute is a fall-out of the Partition of India. The Muslim-majority parts of British India became Pakistan, and the Hindu-majority regions became the Dominion of India. There were, at that time, some 575 princely states in India under indirect British rule. Lord Mountbatten gave them the choice of joining either India or Pakistan, and instructed that their choice must be guided by the religious composition of their populace as well as by the borders they might share with either India or Pakistan, as the case might be. On this basis, almost all the princely states opted for either India or Pakistan. There were, however, three exceptions to this. Hyderabad, a Hindu-majority state with a Muslim ruler, opted for independence, but India argued against this on the grounds that the state had a Hindu majority, and so ordered the Police Action to incorporate the state into the Indian Dominion. Junagadh, another Hindu-majority state with a Muslim ruler, opted for Pakistan, but India over-ruled this decision, again on account of the state’s Hindu majority, and annexed it. If India had adopted the same principle in the case of Jammu and Kashmir, a Muslim-majority state with a Hindu ruler, there would have been no conflict over Kashmir. After all, more than 85% of the population of the state at that time were Muslims; the major rivers in the state flowed into Pakistan; the state shared a border of over 750 kilometres with Pakistan; the only motorable road connecting Kashmir with the outside world throughout the year passed from Srinagar to Rawalpindi; and the majority of the people of the state had cultural and historical ties with the people of Pakistan. However, over-ruling these factors, which would have made Jammu and Kashmir a natural part of Pakistan, in October 1947 the Indian Army entered the state in the guise of flushing out the Pathan tribesmen, who had crossed into Kashmir in the wake of large-scale killings of Muslims in Rajouri and Poonch. Using this incursion an excuse, Hari Singh, the ruler of Kashmir, engineered the intrusion of Indian forces. The British scholar Alistair Lamb says that the so-called Instrument of Accession that Haris Singh is said to have signed to join India temporarily was itself fraudulent. He claims that Hari Singh did not even sign it. Thereafter, India itself took the issue of Kashmir to the United Nations. The UN passed some eighteen resolutions related to Kashmir, recognizing the status of the state as disputed and calling for a resolution of the conflict based on the will of the people of the state, which the first Indian Prime Minister, Jawaharlal Nehru, himself also publicly promised. Now, all that the people of Jammu and Kashmir are saying is that India should live up to this promise that it made of holding a plebiscite in accordance with the UN resolutions. So, this is the basic issue. Q: So, aren’t you here saying that the conflict is essentially political, and not specifically religious? A: For a Muslim, no action is permissible which is against Islam. How can we say that the sacrifices that the Muslims of Kashmir make, the tortures that they suffer, and the martyrdom that they meet have nothing to do with Islam, and that they won’t be rewarded by God for this? In this sense, it is a religious issue also. Islam teaches that Muslims must follow the guidance of Islam in every action of theirs—not just in prayers but also in matters such as war and peace, trade, international relations and so on, because Islam is a complete way of life. If a true Muslim participates in any struggle, it is for the sake of Islam. So, how can you say that the Kashmir conflict has nothing to do with religion? Q: This might be true in theory, but surely many Kashmiris who are involved in the movement for separation from India might be motivated by other factors, including for economic and political reasons, or also due to a commitment to Kashmiri nationalism, as distinct from Islam? A: I agree that there may be various reasons why different people may participate in the movement. Yes, there can be many who do not adopt the guidance of Islam in this regard. They might champion secular democracy and irreligiousness. Their sacrifices might be motivated by nationalism or ethnicity, rather than Islam. They might have no problem with the system of governance in India, their opposition to Indian rule being simply because of the brutalities of Indian occupation. Of course, one cannot say that all Kashmiri Muslims think alike. But I am speaking from the point of view of a practicing Muslim, who accepts Islam as a complete way of life. For such self-conscious Kashmiri Muslims, it is undoubtedly a religious issue and their sacrifices are for the sake of the faith. Q: Maulana Maududi, the founder of the Jamaat-e Islami, who is a major source of inspiration for you, opposed the creation of Pakistan. So, then, why is that that you have consistently been advocating Kashmir’s union with Pakistan? A: You are wrong here. Maulana Maududi was not opposed to the creation of Pakistan and to the ‘two nation’ theory. What he was opposed to was the practice of the Muslim League leaders, who were leading the movement for Pakistan. He told them that while they talked of the ‘two-nation’ theory and Islam, they were not serious about establishing an Islamic state in Pakistan. They were not preparing the activists of the League for an Islamic state. Maulana Maududi wanted Pakistan to be an Islamic state, and this was the grounds for his opposition to the Muslim League. But he, like the League, supported the ‘two-nation’ theory. In fact, the League did not have any theoretical justification for its ‘two nation’ theory until this was provided by Maulana Maududi through his copious writings. Q: But do you really see Indian Hindus and Muslims as two separate ‘nations’? After all, they share so much in common. A: They are totally separate nations. There is no doubt at all about this. Muslims believe in just one God, but Hindus believe in crores of gods. Q: But the Prophet Muhammad, in his treaty with the Jews and other non-Muslims of Medina, described the denizens of Medina as members of one nation. The leader of the Jamiat ul-Ulema-i Hind and a leading Deobandi scholar, Maulana Husain Ahmad Madani, even wrote a book to argue against the League’s ‘two nation’ theory, stressing a composite Indian nationalism that embraced all the people of India. So, how can the Muslims and Hindus of one country be considered separate ‘nations’, even by Islamic standards? A: Islam lays down that in an Islamic system (nizam) all non-Muslims, including even atheists, will get equality, justice, security of life and property and freedom of faith. Maulana Madani’s arguments were critiqued by Maulana Maududi. Q: In your prison memoirs, Rudad-e Qafas, you write that ‘It is as difficult for a Muslim to live in a non-Muslim society as it is for a fish to live in a desert’. But how can this be so? After all, the pioneers of Islam in India and in Kashmir itself, mainly Sufi saints, lived and preached in a society in which Muslims were a very small minority. A: I meant to say this in a particular sense. Islam, as I said, is a complete way of life. No other path is acceptable to God. So, in the absence of an Islamic polity, it is difficult for Muslims to lead their lives entirely in accordance with the rules of Islam, which apply to social affairs as much as they do to personal affairs. For instance, Muslims in Kashmir under Indian rule live in a system where alcohol, interest and immorality are rife, so how can we lead our lives completely in accordance with Islam? Of course, Muslim minorities are Muslims, too, but their duty must be to work to establish an Islamic dispensation in the lands where they live so that they can lead their lives fully in accordance with Islam and its laws. Missionary work to spread Islam is as much of a duty as is praying and giving alms to the poor. Now, as for your question about those Sufis who lived and worked in societies where Muslims were in a minority—they may have been pious people, but we take as our only model the Prophet Muhammad. Q: But, surely, no one is forced to drink alcohol, deal in interest or act immorally in Kashmir? A: True, but these things automatically spread since they are allowed by the present un-Islamic system. So that is why you see the degeneration of our culture and values happening on such a large scale. Q: You mentioned about preaching Islam being a principal duty of all Muslims. But, surely, for this you need a climate of peace, not of active hostility, as in Kashmir today? A: Absolutely. I agree with you entirely. No one can deny this. We need to have good relations with people of other communities. Only then can we communicate the message of Islam to them. But if one side continues to oppress the other and heap injustices and says that this should be considered as ‘peace’, how can it be accepted? If, for instance, Narendra Modi says that what happened with the Muslims in Gujarat represents peace, how can anyone accept it? If India stations lakhs of troops in Kashmir and says this is for establishing peace, how can it be, because these troops themselves are disturbing the peace? Q: You, following other Islamist ideologues, have consistently been advocating what you call an ‘Islamic state’, seeing this as an indispensable Islamic duty. To your mind, which is the best functioning ‘Islamic state’ in the world today? A: The world-wide Muslim community ummah is today in such a sorry state that there is no Islamic state anywhere in the real sense. Saudi Arabia is described as an Islamic state, but it is run by a monarchy, and monarchy has no sanction in Islam. If Muslim countries, including those that claim to be ‘Islamic’, were truly Islamic states they would never have been enslaved to America, as is the case today. They all support America’s policies and adopt its dictates. They are completely, on all accounts, dependent on America. They cannot even defend themselves. They have to rely on America and Europe to do this. They keep their money in American banks. We say that they should use their wealth to empower themselves and get out of America’s clutches and convert themselves into genuine Islamic states. Q: In the wake of the attacks of 11 September, 2001, how do you see the impact of American pressure on Arab states, such as Saudi Arabia, to change their position on Islamist movements? A: The events of September 2001 have caused most Muslim states to change their policies and to toe America’s line even more closely. You can see this happening in Afghanistan and Pakistan. The only Muslim country that refuses to cave under American pressure is Iran. Q: And now America is seeking an excuse to attack Iran, is it not? A: Yes. America is trying to stoke Shia-Sunni rivalries in order to undermine Iran. It is trying all other such weapons, dividing the Muslims on the basis of sect, nationality, race and ethnicity against each other so as to weaken them. And the leaders of most Muslim countries are now playing the role of agents of the USA, be it in Pakistan, Afghanistan and Palestine or as is the case with the Saudi monarchs. See what’s happening in Waziristan, the Frontier Province and Baluchistan, in Pakistan. A climate is being deliberately created in those parts of Pakistan to justify American attacks and bombings in the name of flushing out militants. Q: If Pakistan is now so pro-American, acting against its own people, and if it is not an authentic ‘Islamic state’, then why have you been advocating Kashmir’s union with it? A: As I said earlier, the Muslim League claimed that Pakistan was won in the name of Islam, but it did not give its cadre the necessary training to establish an Islamic state there. Because of this, the influence of the Army and the country’s Westernised leadership, Pakistan failed to become an Islamic state. But it was meant to become such a state, which is something that we want. So, if the people of Jammu and Kashmir were given the right to decide between India and Pakistan, the majority, I think, would prefer the former. I admit that there are weaknesses in Pakistan, but these can be addressed. India has a secular system, which we can under no condition accept. Because of the oppression that we have been suffering under Indian rule for the last sixty years, how can we opt for India? In just a few weeks, in late 1947, some five lakh Muslims were killed by Dogra forces and Hindu chauvinists in Jammu. In the last seventeen years, over one lakh Kashmiri Muslims, mainly innocent civilians, have been killed. So many localities have been burned down, women raped and men rendered missing. After such brutal experiences, only a blind person would opt in favour of India. Q: Many Kashmiri Muslims would rather be independent than join India or Pakistan. Do you agree? A: The UN resolutions provide for only two options: joining India or Pakistan, and if this rule is followed then the majority would, I think, opt for Pakistan. However, if the three parties to the dispute—Pakistan, India and the people of Jammu and Kashmir—come to a consensus on an independent Jammu and Kashmir, then, as I have repeatedly said, we will accept that formula also. Q: In some of your writings you have argued against Kashmir being an independent state, even claiming that this is an Indian ‘ploy’. Can you elaborate? A: This is true. It is an Indian ploy, because India does not want to see Pakistan strengthened, which it would be if Jammu and Kashmir joins Pakistan. The slogan of Azadi is aimed at weakening Pakistan. Independence would result in a territory that would have been a natural part of Pakistan being taken away from it. But, then, compared to staying with India, independence is a lesser evil. Q: Many Kashmiris, seeing the current political and economic troubles in Pakistan, might say that they would prefer to be independent. A: If we get independence, we will accept it. Q: What if most people of Jammu and Kashmir wish to live in a secular or democratic set-up, and not a Taliban-style ‘Islamic’ state? A: We don’t want to bring Taliban-type Islam, but the real Islam of the Quran and the Practice (Sunnah) of the Prophet. Q: But the Taliban argued that their state was in accordance with the Quran and the Sunnah.  A: To claim something is different from acting on that claim. For instance, while Islam makes it a duty for every Muslim male and female to acquire education, as soon as the Taliban came to power they banned girls’ education. What they should have done, instead, was to set up separate schools for girls. So, like this, there are many issues on which we can differ. The Islamic state that we would like to establish in Jammu and Kashmir would be one based on the understanding that all of humanity are children of the same primal parents, Adam and Eve. They will all be treated equally and justly. There shall be no discrimination based on religion. After all, the Prophet once remarked that all creatures are of the family of God and that the best is he who treats members of God’s family—which obviously includes non-Muslims, too—in the best way. Q: You advocate Kashmir’s accession to Pakistan, but today minority nationalities in Pakistan, such as the Baluchis and the Sindhis, suffering under Punjabi domination, are struggling for independence. Might not the same thing happen to the Kashmiris if the state were to join Pakistan? A: We want to  join Pakistan, not be absorbed into it. We would have internal autonomy. Q: But, surely, despite Pakistan’s claims, the part of Jammu and Kashmir under its control—‘Azad Kashmir’—lacks real autonomy? A: Yes, Azad Kashmir cannot be said to be really autonomous since there, too, everything happens according to the wishes and directions of the Federal Government. But we would make sure that our autonomy be written into the Constitution. Q: Do you see any significant changes in Pakistan’s policies vis-à-vis Kashmir in recent years, perhaps under American pressure? A: Yes, considerable changes can be noticed. Earlier, Pakistan used to insist on the right to self-determination for the people of Jammu and Kashmir. Musharraf was the first to change this, arguing for a solution outside that of the UN resolutions, an out-of-the-box solution. This constituted the first deviation in Pakistan’s Kashmir policy. Then, Musharraf began talking of seven zones in Jammu and Kashmir, soft borders and his four-point formula, which is nothing but a means to preserve the status quo. Q: How do you respond to media allegations that the Kashmiri movement for self-determination is ‘anti-Hindu’? A: How can our struggle be called ‘anti-Hindu’? It is a struggle for certain principles. In Hindu mythology, when the Kauravas and the Pandavas, cousins of each other, were arrayed against each other on the battlefield, Arjun turned to Krishanji Maharaj, and told him that he could not bear to fight his own brothers. Why, he asked him, was he asking him to fight them? He wanted to refuse to fight. But, then, Krishanji Maharaj said, ‘Arjun, this is a battle for certain principles. In this, do not consider the fact that those who are opposed to you are your relatives’. We Kashmiris, too, are engaging in such a battle for certain principles with the Indian Government, for occupying us against our will and for not acting on its promise to let us decide our own political future. It is not a war against Hindus or the people of India. It is not a communal conflict. In fact, there are many Indians who support our stand on the right to self-determination. Q: Then why is it that the Indian media, and large sections of the Western media, too, present the movement as ‘Islamic extremism’ or ‘terrorism’? A: The Indian media is bound to support India’s military occupation. How can you expect it to support our cause? I’ve seen so many massacres by the Indian Army here, but often the media describes them as ‘encounters’ with ‘militants’. You know how the agents of the Indian Army engineered the massacre of so many innocent Sikhs in Chhatisinghpora and falsely attributed this to ‘militants’, in order to convey the misleading message to the then American President, Bill Clinton, at that time on a visit to India, that our struggle is a ‘communal’ one, and not a freedom movement. I can cite so many more such cases to prove this point. Q: But, if that is so, why is it that you and people like you have not condemned killings by militants in the same way as you condemn similar crimes by the Indian Army? A: Wherever such incidents have happened, we have condemned them, irrespective of the religion of the victims. The Quran clearly states that enmity with a people should not make one stray from the path of justice, because justice is closer to piety. Q: If Jammu and Kashmir becomes independent, how do you envisage its relations with India and Pakistan? A: It should have brotherly relations with both countries. Q: Some radical groups active in Kashmir argue that all Hindus are ‘enemies’ of Islam. What do you feel? A: No, this is erroneous. There should be no enmity or discrimination with anyone simply because of his religion, caste, race, colour or country. We are permitted to fight only those individuals who fight us or place hurdles in the path of our faith. With others we should have good relations, and that applies to our relations with ordinary Hindus as well. So, when some people argue that as a community the Hindus are ‘enemies of Islam’, it is wrong. It is not an Islamic way of thinking. Q: Certain militant groups active in Kashmir say that they will not stop their war with India until India itself is ‘absorbed’ into Pakistan and the Pakistani flag flies atop Delhi’s Red Fort. What is your opinion? A: This is emotional talk and should not be paid attention to. We don’t agree with this argument. Our fight with India is only to the extent that India has taken away our right to self-determination. Once we win that right we will have no problem with India. In fact, if by exercising this right the majority of the people of Jammu and Kashmir say that they want to be with India, we will also accept that. Q: But don’t you feel certain radical groups active in Kashmir who preach hatred against Hindus and call for India’s ‘absorption’ into Pakistan are actually defaming the religion whose cause they claim to champion? A: Islam has been given a bad name more by Muslims themselves and less by Hindus. Islam has been damaged less by open ‘disbelief’ (kufr) than by hidden hypocrisy (munafiqat), by people who claim to be Muslims but are really not so in practice. Q: So, would you agree that these groups who condemn all Hindus as ‘enemies’ are actually misinterpreting Islam? A: We cannot take responsibility for what others say. You can ask these people yourself. Q: What message do you have for the people of India? A: I will only say that India should honour its promise to the people of Jammu and Kashmir to let them decide their own political future. Honouring one’s promise is a major principle of the Hindu religion. Raja Dasharath, honouring the promise he made to his wife Kaikeyi, gave his throne to his son Bharat and ordered Ram Chandraji to go into the forest in exile.Simply in order to keep his promise he sent his elder son to fourteen years in the forest and gave the throne to Bharat instead. Bharat was a man of character, and so he placed Ram Chandraji’s sandals on the throne, believing that his elder brother deserved to rule. So, the Hindu religion teaches that one should live up to one’s promises, and if India were to act on the advice of the Hindu scriptures in this regard on the issue of Kashmir the conflict will easily be solved.  Copyright 2010 @: New Age Islam Foundation   From nagraj.adve at gmail.com Thu Oct 28 20:27:38 2010 From: nagraj.adve at gmail.com (Nagraj Adve) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 20:27:38 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] INVITE for Debaranjan's film 'The Conflict' Message-ID: KRITI FILM CLUB and India International Centre invite you for the screening of The Conflict: Whose Loss? Whose Gain? (80 mins/ Oriya with English subtitles) Script and Direction: Debaranjan Sarangi Produced by: Pedestrian Pictures, Bangalore on 3rd November, 6.45 pm at the IIC Annexe Auditorium, Lodi Road, New Delhi The screening will be followed by a discussion with the film maker. ABOUT THE FILM: Adivasi communities in India are increasingly becomes victims of an intensifying corporate globalization, and also the focus of a brutal right-wing communalism. Not coincidentally, these are happening at the same time. As a consequence, adivasi communities are feeling increasingly alienated from their lives and cultures in their own lands. This film is about how tribal communities of southern Orissa, mainly Kandha, are facing upto this dual onslaught. It explores the brutal violence in Kandhamal unleashed by right-wing forces following the killing of Swami Laxmananda in August 2008. It also examines the loss of lands and livelihoods faced by Kandhas and the fierce resistance over 15 years to the mining of bauxite by large private mining companies in Kashipur. This film is the director's journey with three tribal leaders to Kandhamal and Kashipur, soon after the violence in Kandhamal broke out in August-September 2009. The film asks an important question “Are adivasis being turned into sacrificial goats by corporate globalisation and communalism?” About the Director: Debaranjan Sarangi is an Orissa-based anti-mining activist, writer and film-maker. He spent eight years with the anti-mining movement of adivasis in Kashipur, Orissa, and is also involved in anti-communal struggles. He writes on anti-mining resistance, development trajectories, communalism, and related issues. The Conflict is his first documentary film. ABOUT THE FILM CLUB: Kriti Film Club is an educational and research oriented initiative of ‘Kriti: a development research, praxis and communication team’. We offer an independent and informal platform for screening documentary films on a whole range of development, human rights & environment issues. We also serve as a access space for documentary films. Phone: 26027845/ 26033088/ 9910476553 Email: space.kriti at gmail.com Web: http://krititeam.blogspot.com Facebook: Kriti team From rahul_capri at yahoo.com Thu Oct 28 20:29:03 2010 From: rahul_capri at yahoo.com (Rahul Asthana) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 07:59:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Sedition case in Gilgit - Baltistan Message-ID: <134388.20631.qm@web53607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Interesting that the accused in the case claim that they were not talking about sedition, but were protesting against inadequate flood relief. http://www.unpo.org/article/11861 Gilgit-Baltistan United Movement (GBUM) held a press conference to condemn cowardly act of the authorities, who have registered sedition case against progressive nationalist right defenders of Pakistan occupied Gilgit-Baltistan.   Below is a press release  published by the Gilgit-Baltistan United Movement: Gilgit-Baltistan United Movement (GBUM) held a press conference to condemn cowardly act of the authorities, who have registered sedition case against progressive nationalist right defenders of Pakistan occupied Gilgit-Baltistan. The activists were holding a peaceful rally demanding relief goods and funds for the flashflood and landslide victims of Hunza-Gojal. Chairperson of GBUM, Manzoor Parwana while addressing the press conference at Skardo, Baltistan, said, “Sedition cases against peaceful flood victims has exposed the so-called democratic regime, which claims to have granted right of freedom of expression and political activity to the masses. Contrary to that, Pakistani agencies continue to obstruct socio-political gatherings, torture and detain activists and commit human rights violations with impunity. With the international community failing to notice, Gilgit-Baltistan continue to remain under colonial-rule.” Parwana grieved by saying, “Unlike in other countries, where governmental organizations race to reach out to the flood victims, Pakistani authorities resorted to a unique method of providing relief by torturing and detaining the flood victims. This way, they have set an example for others demanding similar rights. The fact that flood victims linger in jails instead of being accommodated at the relief camps is a reflection on the so-called Islamic Republic”. He termed sedition case a folly, since it has been registered against those demanding food, shelter, medicines and clothing. The protest occurred after Pakistani prime minister visited the flooded villages of Hunza, however, failed to announce adequate relief measures. He challenged validity of such cases, since Gilgit-Baltistan is not a constitutional part of Pakistan. He further said, “Sedition cases involving individuals like Babajan, Wajahat, Noor Ali, Ghulam Zahir, Izhar, Khadim Hussain, Ibrahim, Jan Alam, Gul Nawaz, Rahim, Abdul Karim and Karim Khan were baseless. The police FIR 59625 also prove the fact that the protest was peaceful and a-political.” In the end, he asked the Chief Minister of Gilgit-Baltistan to withdraw cases and ensure freedom of expression and appeal in the region.”  From sanjaykhak at gmail.com Thu Oct 28 21:45:46 2010 From: sanjaykhak at gmail.com (Sanjay Khak) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 21:45:46 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Complaint Filed Against Geelani, Arundhati in Delhi Message-ID: *Complaint Filed Against Geelani, Arundhati in Delhi New Delhi | Oct 28, 2010 PTI* A complaint was filed in a city police station here today seeking action against hardline Hurriyat leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani and writer Arundhati Roy among others for allegedly making inflammatory speeches at a seminar here. Police said the complaint was filed at Tilak Marg police station. The government, however, has decided not to file any case against Geelani and Roy for purportedly giving "hate speeches" at the seminar last week. The decision was taken after considering various issues and it was decided that such a move would give unnecessary publicity to them and a handle to separatists in the Valley, officials in the Union Home Ministry said. The complainant, Sushil Pandit, meanwhile, said they had waited for the government to take action against those spoke for secession of Kashmir from India but were forced to file the complaint as no case was registered against Geelani, Roy or others like Maoist sympathiser Varavara Rao and S.A.R Geelani. At the convention on 'Azadi--The Only Way', Geelani had shared the stage with writer Roy among others. Geelani was heckled by the audience with one of them throwing a shoe at him. "If there is no action within next 72 hours, we will use further legal rights available with us to get the accused booked. We will move court," a statement from an organisation Roots of Kashmir said. From aliens at dataone.in Thu Oct 28 21:47:47 2010 From: aliens at dataone.in (Bipin Trivedi) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 21:47:47 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Arundhati Roy is dangerously wrong on Kashmir Message-ID: <003301cb76bb$a9355e00$fba01a00$@in> Arundhati Roy is dangerously wrong on Kashmir - by Venkatesan Vembu http://www.dnaindia.com/opinion/column_arundhati-roy-is-dangerously-wrong-on -kashmir_1458329 There's a mesmeric, seductive quality to Arundhati Roy's prose. For all its verbiage, it teases, tempts and torments the mind and lures it into the parlour of a contrarian world; it then persuades it, with the sheer power of its eloquence that the natural order of things in the 'real' world as we know it is wholly unnatural and completely flawed. "So you think India is a superpower in the making?" it says, and marshals compelling arguments for why India is more in the "bhookey-nangey" category. "So you think big dams are great for development?" it asks. "Perhaps you'll feel differently if it were your home and your livelihood that needed to be sacrificed for the greater good". A fair-minded person might concede that Roy has at least half a point, even if, once the seductive power of her prose has worn off, her polemical pounding of that half-point is grating in the extreme. Heck, she's not even the only one who holds an unflattering mirror to Indian society and forces us to reflect on our failings. The social historian Ramachandra Guha does it no less trenchantly, no less controversially and no less eloquently; but he does it with a far greater sensitivity to the burden of history, and he at least has the intellectual honesty - and the good grace - to acknowledge the merits, such as they are, of India's democracy, flawed though it is. But whereas the soundbite-savvy Roy's polemics were once merely infuriatingly dishonest (even when they had half a point), her most recent public articulations on Kashmir, coming on top of her unvarnished defence of Maoist resort to violence, cross the threshold of what any self-respecting, law-bound nation-state can tolerate. Roy may have declared herself an 'independent mobile republic', as she did after the 1998 Pokhran nuclear tests in order to dissociate herself from the BJP's nuclear jingoism; but she's still bound by the sedition laws of the decidedly immobile republic she inhabits. Apart from being historically inaccurate, Roy's words also betray an inadequate sensitivity to the enormous gravity of any loose talk of azaadi or self-determination at a time when the separatist campaign in Kashmir finally stands exposed before the world as having been propelled all along by Pakistan-backed jihadis who are playing for much larger stakes: the disintegration of secular India. Perhaps in parlour room polemics, among calm and politically sanitised minds, there may be little risk from intellectual explorations of the merits of Kashmiri self-determination. But the Kashmir mind today is in a fevered state as a result of years of hot-headed jihadi indoctrination; only when that fever subsides can other cures be contemplated. Right now, given that inflamed state, Roy's words have the potency to bestir indoctrinated minds into extreme action. History doesn't flow in straight lines, but in contours, and in Kashmir's tortured history there are many contours to negotiate. The Indian state may not always have got it right in Kashmir, but Roy's black-and-white delineation represents a colossal and intellectually dishonest oversimplification of the problem without sufficient appreciation of the fanatical geopolitical forces at work. It also takes her farther down the slippery slope of shrill and decidedly dangerous sloganeering which has enormous lethal consequences in the real world. Perhaps she should break the spell that her own hypnotic prose appears to have on herself and her increasingly fanatical flock of followers. From aliens at dataone.in Thu Oct 28 22:10:47 2010 From: aliens at dataone.in (Bipin Trivedi) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 22:10:47 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] JKNPP to celebrate accession of state to India on Oct 26-27 Message-ID: <003401cb76be$dfdfa1b0$9f9ee510$@in> JKNPP shall celebrate the anniversary on the state's integration with India with great pomp and show in all the 22 districts on October 26, the day Maharaja Hari Singh signed the instrument of accession on October 26, 1947 http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_jknpp-to-celebrate-accession-of-state-t o-india-on-oct-26-27_1452495 The Jammu and Kashmir National Panthers Party (JKNPP) has today decided to celebrate accession of the state to India in 1947, during the upcoming 63rd anniversary celebrations of the party. "JKNPP shall celebrate the anniversary on the state's integration with India with great pomp and show in all the 22 districts on October 26, the day Maharaja Hari Singh signed the instrument of accession on October 26, 1947," party chairman Bhim Singh told reporters in Jammu. He said that on October 27, the party shall organise a historic public meeting in Jammu - the winter capital of the state, where all nationalists and political parties shall be invited. The JKNPP chairman said that the party has appealed to all the political parties, social organisations, NGOs and the educational institutions to take out victory rallies with the tricolour flags to show that Jammu and Kashmir is an "inseparable and integral part" of India. Asserting that the finality of accession with India cannot be challenged, Singh quoted Article 3 of the state Constitution which says "Jammu and Kashmir is and shall remain an integral part of India". Meanwhile, reacting to the appointment of the interlocutors by Centre to carry dialogue process with different groups in Jammu, he said, "It is only a process of appointing unemployed bureaucrats and media persons, who do not have basic knowledge about geography and history of greater Jammu and Kashmir." From taraprakash at gmail.com Thu Oct 28 22:29:11 2010 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 12:59:11 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Statement by Arundhati Roy References: Message-ID: <969D003BB2B742FAB0FCEBCB99A5E25D@tara> Samvit it is people like you who dilute the issues. Now onwards all who are opposed to SASG agenda will be branded as depraved and misogynist. Whereas the ones took pride in throwing acid on the face of women who wouldn't veil their face will be fine. You owe an apology to the forum. The acid throwers are not part of the forum, I would have asked them to apologize as well. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Samvit" To: "Subhash" Cc: "reader-list" Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 5:44 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Statement by Arundhati Roy > Subhash, > I said "over the hill" because someone on this forum said that she was > pretty. It was my freedom of speech. The "right to speak" does not > belong to Arundhati and her friends only. > In a similar way you have no right to talk about my "distorted > education". Please practice what you try to preach. If truth is so > bitter for you, I suggest you stay away from it. > I am so surprised that people here are so worried about Geelani's > right to speak but are against anyone else who doesn't toe their line. > And yes, talking about gender in an open discussion is not a crime. > Perhaps, those who have had a distorted education think that way. > -Samvit > > On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 2:56 PM, Subhash wrote: >> Samvit, you really need to learn how to respect and equate women - >> using words like "over the hill" and pretty for anyone tells that you >> have had a very distorted education. Why do you have to talk about the >> gender of a person while talking of her politics? >> >> >> >> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 6:58 PM, Samvit wrote: >>> Anuradha, >>> Couple of points:- >>> 1. Arundati is over the hill, least to say that she is "pretty". You >>> are making us believe that in India good looking woman are not >>> respected. There are thousands of pretty girls who work all kind of >>> time zones and they make us proud. Woman have proved themselves in all >>> fields, even outpacing men. So that logic doesn't count. >>> 2. It is a typical Gobellian technique to say that she is non-violent. >>> She instigates people to all kind of violence. She hops from city to >>> city promoting her vision of an Utopian world. >>> >>> 2. And yes, you make it sound so simple about the Pandits. If you do >>> not know the truth please do not make comments about people who have >>> suffered like no Indian ever did. I just pray to God that you never >>> have to face what the Pandits have gone thorugh. Imagine a situation >>> where you have fanatics banging at you door and hunting for women in >>> your family. You are ready to poison them before they fall prey to the >>> fanatics. You call the police and you realize that they are siding >>> with the zealots. The Indian state is impotent because we have khadi >>> clad intellectuals who think helping the Pandits would be non-secular. >>> The whole community is uprooted from the Valley while Sonia and Rajiv >>> Gandhi are playing with snow en route to Kashmir. You do not even know >>> half the story. So I suggest that you do some more research before you >>> provide your expertise. >>> >>> Kashmir and Kashmiri are very complex, the Indian state is too naive >>> to handle them. >>> -Samvit >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 6:35 PM, anuradha mukherjee >>> wrote: >>>> Inder, I think she makes for a soft target because she is a woman, she >>>> is >>>> pretty, speaks her mind in a non-violent manner (without the help of >>>> gun or >>>> crotch grabbing bodyguards). I may disagree with her approach on may >>>> issues, >>>> may be not in essense but the way she articulates herself, but the >>>> woman is >>>> courageous. It takes courage to defy the majority view like this. >>>> And she gets attention, so those who berate her also share the >>>> limelight. >>>> But I also disagree with the people who say "nothing happened, Jagmohan >>>> created a bogey, Pandit left on their own", "Muslims wants them back" >>>> etc. >>>> The last statement may or may not be true, but no community gives up >>>> its >>>> hearths and homes and livelihoods overnight and chooses to live as >>>> refugees. >>>> But the tragedy of Kashmir is that its daily suffering forces it to >>>> discount >>>> the sufferings of its Hindu brothers. If you say Azadi, please do not >>>> say >>>> that Pandits had it easy either (may be those with resources did). >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 5:47 PM, Inder Salim >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I guess people in India will read her only after she gets Nobel for >>>>> literature. >>>>> which she deserves >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> love >>>>> is >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 3:14 PM, Rajkamal Goswami >>>>> wrote: >>>>> > Dear Aditya >>>>> > >>>>> > I am sure yo know about her fictional work 1 novel & 1 screenplay. >>>>> > But >>>>> > I am not sure if you have read her non-fictional work. Well she >>>>> > didn't >>>>> > win booker for them but she won the "Sydney Peace Prize" and the >>>>> > "Sahitya Akademi award" which she politely refused. Her body of non >>>>> > fiction work is far greater (both in volume and quality) than her >>>>> > fictional work. I hope you have read her work. If not please read >>>>> > atleast the essential Roy viz "The greater common good", the >>>>> > "Algebra >>>>> > of Infinite justice", "Come September", Do Turkeys Enjoy >>>>> > Thanksgiving", "Peace is War", "Listening To Grasshoppers", "Shall >>>>> > We >>>>> > Leave It to the Experts?" and my favorite “The Ladies have feelings >>>>> > so…” You should definitely read the last one because it answers your >>>>> > query about the very questions that you have raised. >>>>> > >>>>> > Regarding a fiction writer being political, well all writers are >>>>> > political. That some chose to remain silent is also a political >>>>> > activity. That Ms. Roy choses to write her politics and throw it >>>>> > open >>>>> > to ideas and criticism is the best thing I really like about her. >>>>> > Besides she is also indulged in field activism, giving her voice to >>>>> > the voiceless and rooting for real democracy. >>>>> > >>>>> > Thanks >>>>> > r >>>>> > >>>>> > On 10/27/10, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: >>>>> >> Are you the moderator? Just curious again. You indeed have a big >>>>> >> hand. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 2:31 PM, Tapas Ray [Gmail] >>>>> >> wrote: >>>>> >> >>>>> >>> ps: I mean, to Aditya. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> On 27 October 2010 14:30, Tapas Ray [Gmail] >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>> > Really intelligent comment. Let's give him a big hand! >>>>> >>> > >>>>> >>> > On 27 October 2010 14:23, Aditya Raj Kaul >>>>> >>> > >>>>> >>> wrote: >>>>> >>> >> Isn't she a Fiction writer? Or is she really a writer? Just >>>>> >>> >> curious. >>>>> >>> >> >>>>> >>> >> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 2:01 PM, Rajkamal Goswami < >>>>> >>> rajkamalgoswami at gmail.com >>>>> >>> >>> wrote: >>>>> >>> >> >>>>> >>> >>> I am just in awe of this woman. >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> On 10/27/10, Tapas Ray [Gmail] wrote: >>>>> >>> >>> > Pheeta, >>>>> >>> >>> > >>>>> >>> >>> > No problem, and no need to apologise! >>>>> >>> >>> > >>>>> >>> >>> > Best, >>>>> >>> >>> > >>>>> >>> >>> > Tapas >>>>> >>> >>> > >>>>> >>> >>> > On 27 October 2010 09:07, Pheeta Ram >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>> >>> >> Dear Tapas >>>>> >>> >>> >> Actually the statement was sent to me by somebody. I forgot >>>>> >>> >>> >> to >>>>> >>> >>> >> check >>>>> >>> if >>>>> >>> >>> it >>>>> >>> >>> >> had already been published online; that's why there was no >>>>> >>> >>> >> link. >>>>> >>> Thanks >>>>> >>> >>> >> for >>>>> >>> >>> >> reminding me the etiquettes of responsible online >>>>> >>> >>> >> publishing. >>>>> >>> >>> >> I shall take care next time. >>>>> >>> >>> >> Pheeta Ram >>>>> >>> >>> >> >>>>> >>> >>> >> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 6:42 AM, Tapas Ray [Gmail] < >>>>> >>> tapasrayx at gmail.com >>>>> >>> >>> > >>>>> >>> >>> >> wrote: >>>>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>> Pheeta, >>>>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks for this. I think it would be good if we gave the >>>>> >>> >>> >>> links >>>>> >>> along >>>>> >>> >>> >>> with any material from online sources that we might be >>>>> >>> >>> >>> posting. >>>>> >>> This >>>>> >>> >>> >>> one's is >>>>> >>> >>> >>> < >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/arundhati-roys-statement-on-possible-sedition-case-62566 >>>>> >>> >>> >. >>>>> >>> >>> >>> As for offline sources (e.g., printed books, etc.), a >>>>> >>> >>> >>> mention >>>>> of >>>>> >>> the >>>>> >>> >>> >>> source, as complete as possible, would be very helpful. >>>>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks again. >>>>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>> Tapas >>>>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>> On 27 October 2010 02:10, Pheeta Ram >>>>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > STATEMENT BY ARUNDHATI ROY >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > I write this from Srinagar, Kashmir. This morning’s >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > papers >>>>> say >>>>> >>> that I >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > may be arrested on charges of sedition for what I have >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > said >>>>> at >>>>> >>> recent >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > public meetings on Kashmir. I said what millions of >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > people >>>>> here >>>>> >>> say >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > every day. I said what I, as well as other commentators >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > have >>>>> >>> written >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > and said for years. Anybody who cares to read the >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > transcripts >>>>> of >>>>> >>> my >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > speeches will see that they were fundamentally a call >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > for >>>>> >>> justice. I >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > spoke about justice for the people of Kashmir who live >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > under >>>>> one >>>>> >>> of >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > the most brutal military occupations in the world; for >>>>> Kashmiri >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > Pandits who live out the tragedy of having been driven >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > out of >>>>> >>> their >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > homeland; for Dalit soldiers killed in Kashmir whose >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > graves I >>>>> >>> visited >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > on garbage heaps in their villages in Cuddalore; for the >>>>> Indian >>>>> >>> poor >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > who pay the price of this occupation in material ways >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > and who >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > are >>>>> >>> now >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > learning to live in the terror of what is becoming a >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > police >>>>> >>> state. >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > Yesterday I traveled to Shopian, the apple-town in South >>>>> Kashmir >>>>> >>> >>> which >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > had remained closed for 47 days last year in protest >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > against >>>>> the >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > brutal rape and murder of Asiya and Nilofer, the young >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > women >>>>> >>> whose >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > bodies were found in a shallow stream near their homes >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > and >>>>> whose >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > murderers have still not been brought to justice. I met >>>>> Shakeel, >>>>> >>> who >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > is Nilofer’s husband and Asiya’s brother. We sat in a >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > circle >>>>> of >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > people crazed with grief and anger who had lost hope >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > that >>>>> they >>>>> >>> would >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > ever get ‘insaf’—justice—from India, and now believed >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > that >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > Azadi—freedom— was their only hope. I met young stone >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > pelters >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > who >>>>> >>> had >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > been shot through their eyes. I traveled with a young >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > man who >>>>> >>> told me >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > how three of his friends, teenagers in Anantnag >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > district, had >>>>> >>> been >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > taken into custody and had their finger-nails pulled out >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > as >>>>> >>> >>> punishment >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > for throwing stones. >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > In the papers some have accused me of giving >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > ‘hate-speeches’, >>>>> of >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > wanting India to break up. On the contrary, what I say >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > comes >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > from >>>>> >>> >>> love >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > and pride. It comes from not wanting people to be >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > killed, >>>>> raped, >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > imprisoned or have their finger-nails pulled out in >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > order to >>>>> >>> force >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > them to say they are Indians. It comes from wanting to >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > live >>>>> in a >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > society that is striving to be a just one. Pity the >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > nation >>>>> that >>>>> >>> has >>>>> >>> >>> to >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > silence its writers for speaking their minds. Pity the >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > nation >>>>> >>> that >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > needs to jail those who ask for justice, while communal >>>>> killers, >>>>> >>> mass >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > murderers, corporate scamsters, looters, rapists, and >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > those >>>>> who >>>>> >>> prey >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > on the poorest of the poor, roam free. >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > Arundhati Roy >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > October 26 2010 >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > _________________________________________ >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > city. >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > Critiques & Collaborations >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > To subscribe: send an email to >>>>> reader-list-request at sarai.netwith >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > subscribe in the subject header. >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > To unsubscribe: >>>>> >>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > List archive: < >>>>> https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>> >>> >>> >>> _________________________________________ >>>>> >>> >>> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the >>>>> >>> >>> >>> city. >>>>> >>> >>> >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>> >>> >>> >>> To subscribe: send an email to >>>>> >>> >>> >>> reader-list-request at sarai.netwith >>>>> >>> >>> >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>>> >>> >>> >>> To unsubscribe: >>>>> >>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>> >>> >>> >>> List archive: < >>>>> https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>> >>> >>> >> >>>>> >>> >>> > _________________________________________ >>>>> >>> >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>> >>> >>> > Critiques & Collaborations >>>>> >>> >>> > To subscribe: send an email to >>>>> >>> >>> > reader-list-request at sarai.netwith >>>>> >>> >>> subscribe >>>>> >>> >>> > in the subject header. >>>>> >>> >>> > To unsubscribe: >>>>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>> >>> >>> > List archive: >>>>> >>> >>> > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> -- >>>>> >>> >>> Rajkamal >>>>> >>> >>> _________________________________________ >>>>> >>> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>> >>> >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>> >>> >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >>>>> >>> >>> with >>>>> >>> >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>>> >>> >>> To unsubscribe: >>>>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>> >>> >>> List archive: >>>>> >>> >>> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >> _________________________________________ >>>>> >>> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>> >>> >> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>> >>> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >>>>> >>> >> with >>>>> >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>>> >>> >> To unsubscribe: >>>>> >>> >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>> >>> >> List archive: >>>>> >>> >> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>> >>> > >>>>> >>> _________________________________________ >>>>> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>> >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>> >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>> >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>>> >>> To unsubscribe: >>>>> >>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>> >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >> _________________________________________ >>>>> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>> >> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>> subscribe >>>>> >> in the subject header. >>>>> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > -- >>>>> > Rajkamal >>>>> > _________________________________________ >>>>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>> > Critiques & Collaborations >>>>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> http://indersalim.livejournal.com >>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Samvit Rawal >>> 9422037853 >>> ----------------------------------------------------------- >>> To err is human; to forgive, infrequent. >>> - Franklin P. Adams >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > > > -- > Samvit Rawal > 9422037853 > ----------------------------------------------------------- > To err is human; to forgive, infrequent. > - Franklin P. Adams > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From taraprakash at gmail.com Thu Oct 28 23:25:43 2010 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 13:55:43 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Statement by Arundhati Roy References: Message-ID: Good intervention Inder. 20 years from now we will remember this discussion. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Inder Salim" To: "reader-list" Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2010 9:47 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Statement by Arundhati Roy > Thanks dear Samvit > > how many saner voices you think are left in india? > who, is there who talks about poor, their rights and their significance? > Who is there who talks about happiness for all, not on paper but > actually going there, studying their problems. Dont you think that we > need to preserve our forsts and the people who are living in that > system? > > who in your mind deserves an applause? The people who cut forests, do > reckless mining in the name development with no respect to their > shrines and ecosystem which sustained them thousands and thousand of > years. What is ur definition of main stream ? It is road rolling of > pebbles called ordinary human beings... > > the people at the helm in India are busy misappropriate funds to buy > properties here and abroad. take any corporate, and see how how they > have bungled with nationalized banks. Each one of them have tricked > the system.... i have really lost faith in the white colored > bureaucrat and the politicians who plays the role of a middle man > between the contractor and the administrator > > The system is sick with children of living and dead politicians coming > to power, running to grab the seats of democracy. > > The problem with India is that only poor people love this country, it > culture and its diversity, the rest of middle class and upper middle > class are constantly thinking to grab the opportunity and run out and > settle abraod, or by pass the norms.... We use the people like we use > toilet paper, that is why there is child labour, there is bride > burning, there is attack on dalits, there is oppression against > muslims... it not about Hindu India, it just happens that the system > is run by upper caste Hindus, sad..... > > just tell me which sector is healthy in India. What is the level of > contamination in food, medicine etc... forget abouit justice in our > country. It is worse for the poor, forget good education, it is all > meant for people who have access to public schools.... > > Imagine, Delhi Govt managing its schools in tents, and if there are > buildings, there are no stools/benchs for them to sit. Shame, that we > spend so much money for CWG > > Well, if you dont like voices, just be.. happy as most of us are.... > > love > is > > > > On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 6:34 PM, Samvit wrote: >> I think that she is an intellectual leftover. It is very surprising >> that I find people of Sarai are raving about a woman who is >> pardaoxically opposite to the leftist ideology. While the stories of >> her promiscuity are legendary I would not talk about them as it would >> be interfering in her personal life. However some years back I saw her >> in the skimpiest clothing going to the most capitalistic gym anyone >> can think of. >> >> Those who rave about her writing need to read more writers and they >> would realize what talent Arundati has got. Also, it is "en vogue" to >> write against India. The great India rope trick sells like hot cake. >> Write a book that says elephants run on Indian roads and it sells like >> hot cake in the "developed world". >> It is the intellectual leftovers like her and Gautam Navlakha who call >> India "a corporate Hindu state". It is pretty sad that people on this >> forum are "in awe of her". >> -Samvit >> >> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 5:47 PM, Inder Salim >> wrote: >>> I guess people in India will read her only after she gets Nobel for >>> literature. >>> which she deserves >>> >>> >>> love >>> is >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 3:14 PM, Rajkamal Goswami >>> wrote: >>>> Dear Aditya >>>> >>>> I am sure yo know about her fictional work 1 novel & 1 screenplay. But >>>> I am not sure if you have read her non-fictional work. Well she didn't >>>> win booker for them but she won the "Sydney Peace Prize" and the >>>> "Sahitya Akademi award" which she politely refused. Her body of non >>>> fiction work is far greater (both in volume and quality) than her >>>> fictional work. I hope you have read her work. If not please read >>>> atleast the essential Roy viz "The greater common good", the "Algebra >>>> of Infinite justice", "Come September", Do Turkeys Enjoy >>>> Thanksgiving", "Peace is War", "Listening To Grasshoppers", "Shall We >>>> Leave It to the Experts?" and my favorite “The Ladies have feelings >>>> so…” You should definitely read the last one because it answers your >>>> query about the very questions that you have raised. >>>> >>>> Regarding a fiction writer being political, well all writers are >>>> political. That some chose to remain silent is also a political >>>> activity. That Ms. Roy choses to write her politics and throw it open >>>> to ideas and criticism is the best thing I really like about her. >>>> Besides she is also indulged in field activism, giving her voice to >>>> the voiceless and rooting for real democracy. >>>> >>>> Thanks >>>> r >>>> >>>> On 10/27/10, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: >>>>> Are you the moderator? Just curious again. You indeed have a big hand. >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 2:31 PM, Tapas Ray [Gmail] >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> ps: I mean, to Aditya. >>>>>> >>>>>> On 27 October 2010 14:30, Tapas Ray [Gmail] >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> > Really intelligent comment. Let's give him a big hand! >>>>>> > >>>>>> > On 27 October 2010 14:23, Aditya Raj Kaul >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >> Isn't she a Fiction writer? Or is she really a writer? Just >>>>>> >> curious. >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 2:01 PM, Rajkamal Goswami < >>>>>> rajkamalgoswami at gmail.com >>>>>> >>> wrote: >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >>> I am just in awe of this woman. >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> On 10/27/10, Tapas Ray [Gmail] wrote: >>>>>> >>> > Pheeta, >>>>>> >>> > >>>>>> >>> > No problem, and no need to apologise! >>>>>> >>> > >>>>>> >>> > Best, >>>>>> >>> > >>>>>> >>> > Tapas >>>>>> >>> > >>>>>> >>> > On 27 October 2010 09:07, Pheeta Ram >>>>>> >>> > wrote: >>>>>> >>> >> Dear Tapas >>>>>> >>> >> Actually the statement was sent to me by somebody. I forgot to >>>>>> >>> >> check >>>>>> if >>>>>> >>> it >>>>>> >>> >> had already been published online; that's why there was no >>>>>> >>> >> link. >>>>>> Thanks >>>>>> >>> >> for >>>>>> >>> >> reminding me the etiquettes of responsible online publishing. >>>>>> >>> >> I shall take care next time. >>>>>> >>> >> Pheeta Ram >>>>>> >>> >> >>>>>> >>> >> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 6:42 AM, Tapas Ray [Gmail] < >>>>>> tapasrayx at gmail.com >>>>>> >>> > >>>>>> >>> >> wrote: >>>>>> >>> >>> >>>>>> >>> >>> Pheeta, >>>>>> >>> >>> >>>>>> >>> >>> Thanks for this. I think it would be good if we gave the >>>>>> >>> >>> links >>>>>> along >>>>>> >>> >>> with any material from online sources that we might be >>>>>> >>> >>> posting. >>>>>> This >>>>>> >>> >>> one's is >>>>>> >>> >>> < >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/arundhati-roys-statement-on-possible-sedition-case-62566 >>>>>> >>> >. >>>>>> >>> >>> As for offline sources (e.g., printed books, etc.), a mention >>>>>> >>> >>> of >>>>>> the >>>>>> >>> >>> source, as complete as possible, would be very helpful. >>>>>> >>> >>> >>>>>> >>> >>> Thanks again. >>>>>> >>> >>> >>>>>> >>> >>> Tapas >>>>>> >>> >>> >>>>>> >>> >>> >>>>>> >>> >>> On 27 October 2010 02:10, Pheeta Ram >>>>>> >>> >>> wrote: >>>>>> >>> >>> > STATEMENT BY ARUNDHATI ROY >>>>>> >>> >>> > >>>>>> >>> >>> > I write this from Srinagar, Kashmir. This morning’s papers >>>>>> >>> >>> > say >>>>>> that I >>>>>> >>> >>> > may be arrested on charges of sedition for what I have said >>>>>> >>> >>> > at >>>>>> recent >>>>>> >>> >>> > public meetings on Kashmir. I said what millions of people >>>>>> >>> >>> > here >>>>>> say >>>>>> >>> >>> > every day. I said what I, as well as other commentators >>>>>> >>> >>> > have >>>>>> written >>>>>> >>> >>> > and said for years. Anybody who cares to read the >>>>>> >>> >>> > transcripts of >>>>>> my >>>>>> >>> >>> > speeches will see that they were fundamentally a call for >>>>>> justice. I >>>>>> >>> >>> > spoke about justice for the people of Kashmir who live >>>>>> >>> >>> > under one >>>>>> of >>>>>> >>> >>> > the most brutal military occupations in the world; for >>>>>> >>> >>> > Kashmiri >>>>>> >>> >>> > Pandits who live out the tragedy of having been driven out >>>>>> >>> >>> > of >>>>>> their >>>>>> >>> >>> > homeland; for Dalit soldiers killed in Kashmir whose graves >>>>>> >>> >>> > I >>>>>> visited >>>>>> >>> >>> > on garbage heaps in their villages in Cuddalore; for the >>>>>> >>> >>> > Indian >>>>>> poor >>>>>> >>> >>> > who pay the price of this occupation in material ways and >>>>>> >>> >>> > who >>>>>> >>> >>> > are >>>>>> now >>>>>> >>> >>> > learning to live in the terror of what is becoming a police >>>>>> state. >>>>>> >>> >>> > >>>>>> >>> >>> > Yesterday I traveled to Shopian, the apple-town in South >>>>>> >>> >>> > Kashmir >>>>>> >>> which >>>>>> >>> >>> > had remained closed for 47 days last year in protest >>>>>> >>> >>> > against the >>>>>> >>> >>> > brutal rape and murder of Asiya and Nilofer, the young >>>>>> >>> >>> > women >>>>>> whose >>>>>> >>> >>> > bodies were found in a shallow stream near their homes and >>>>>> >>> >>> > whose >>>>>> >>> >>> > murderers have still not been brought to justice. I met >>>>>> >>> >>> > Shakeel, >>>>>> who >>>>>> >>> >>> > is Nilofer’s husband and Asiya’s brother. We sat in a >>>>>> >>> >>> > circle of >>>>>> >>> >>> > people crazed with grief and anger who had lost hope that >>>>>> >>> >>> > they >>>>>> would >>>>>> >>> >>> > ever get ‘insaf’—justice—from India, and now believed that >>>>>> >>> >>> > Azadi—freedom— was their only hope. I met young stone >>>>>> >>> >>> > pelters >>>>>> >>> >>> > who >>>>>> had >>>>>> >>> >>> > been shot through their eyes. I traveled with a young man >>>>>> >>> >>> > who >>>>>> told me >>>>>> >>> >>> > how three of his friends, teenagers in Anantnag district, >>>>>> >>> >>> > had >>>>>> been >>>>>> >>> >>> > taken into custody and had their finger-nails pulled out as >>>>>> >>> punishment >>>>>> >>> >>> > for throwing stones. >>>>>> >>> >>> > >>>>>> >>> >>> > In the papers some have accused me of giving ‘hate-speeches’, >>>>>> >>> >>> > of >>>>>> >>> >>> > wanting India to break up. On the contrary, what I say >>>>>> >>> >>> > comes >>>>>> >>> >>> > from >>>>>> >>> love >>>>>> >>> >>> > and pride. It comes from not wanting people to be killed, >>>>>> >>> >>> > raped, >>>>>> >>> >>> > imprisoned or have their finger-nails pulled out in order >>>>>> >>> >>> > to >>>>>> force >>>>>> >>> >>> > them to say they are Indians. It comes from wanting to live >>>>>> >>> >>> > in a >>>>>> >>> >>> > society that is striving to be a just one. Pity the nation >>>>>> >>> >>> > that >>>>>> has >>>>>> >>> to >>>>>> >>> >>> > silence its writers for speaking their minds. Pity the >>>>>> >>> >>> > nation >>>>>> that >>>>>> >>> >>> > needs to jail those who ask for justice, while communal >>>>>> >>> >>> > killers, >>>>>> mass >>>>>> >>> >>> > murderers, corporate scamsters, looters, rapists, and those >>>>>> >>> >>> > who >>>>>> prey >>>>>> >>> >>> > on the poorest of the poor, roam free. >>>>>> >>> >>> > >>>>>> >>> >>> > Arundhati Roy >>>>>> >>> >>> > >>>>>> >>> >>> > October 26 2010 >>>>>> >>> >>> > _________________________________________ >>>>>> >>> >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>>> >>> >>> > Critiques & Collaborations >>>>>> >>> >>> > To subscribe: send an email to >>>>>> >>> >>> > reader-list-request at sarai.netwith >>>>>> >>> >>> > subscribe in the subject header. >>>>>> >>> >>> > To unsubscribe: >>>>>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>>> >>> >>> > List archive: >>>>>> >>> >>> > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>>> >>> >>> _________________________________________ >>>>>> >>> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>>> >>> >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>>> >>> >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >>>>>> >>> >>> with >>>>>> >>> >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>>>> >>> >>> To unsubscribe: >>>>>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>>> >>> >>> List archive: >>>>>> >>> >>> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>>> >>> >> >>>>>> >>> > _________________________________________ >>>>>> >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>>> >>> > Critiques & Collaborations >>>>>> >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >>>>>> >>> > with >>>>>> >>> subscribe >>>>>> >>> > in the subject header. >>>>>> >>> > To unsubscribe: >>>>>> >>> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>>> >>> > List archive: >>>>>> >>> > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> -- >>>>>> >>> Rajkamal >>>>>> >>> _________________________________________ >>>>>> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>>> >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>>> >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>>> >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>>>> >>> To unsubscribe: >>>>>> >>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>>> >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >> _________________________________________ >>>>>> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>>> >> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>>> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>>>> >> To unsubscribe: >>>>>> >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>>> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>>> > >>>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>>> >>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>> subscribe >>>>> in the subject header. >>>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Rajkamal >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> http://indersalim.livejournal.com >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> -- >> Samvit Rawal >> 9422037853 >> ----------------------------------------------------------- >> To err is human; to forgive, infrequent. >> - Franklin P. Adams >> > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From taraprakash at gmail.com Thu Oct 28 23:43:29 2010 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 14:13:29 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] The Islamic agenda of Syed Ali Shah Geelani (forKashmir) References: <558231.73608.qm@web120209.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: It will be a useful exercise, especially Squealer told the forum about the pig's evolution pretty recently. It will be benefitial to know how often does this guy evolve. I can't use the pig's name, Snowball or Napoleon, not sure which one SASG will end up being. As of now the Animal Farm has not yet come in to existence. We do have the evolved Snoball/Napoleon and of course Squealers. "Some animals are more equal than others." ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aalok Aima" To: Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 8:33 AM Subject: [Reader-list] The Islamic agenda of Syed Ali Shah Geelani (forKashmir) > > > > > i was trying to check on the web whether this is a recent or a dated > interview > > i came across across many lines in geelani's answer to the first question > that are identical to those in an article in 'gulf news' of 15th aug 2010 > by one Tariq A. Al Maeena > http://gulfnews.com/opinions/columnists/politicians-cannot-keep-on-ignoring-kashmiri-voices-1.668170 > > between geelani, yoginder sikand and tariq, one of them has plagiarised > from the other .... > some quotes from geelani's answers: > > "Islam, as I said, is a complete way of life. No other path is acceptable > to God. So, in the absence of an Islamic polity, it is difficult for > Muslims to lead their lives entirely in accordance with the rules of > Islam, which apply to social affairs as much as they do to personal > affairs. For instance, Muslims in Kashmir under Indian rule live in a > system where alcohol, interest and immorality are rife, so how can we lead > our lives completely in accordance with Islam? Of course, Muslim > minorities are Muslims, too, but their duty must be to work to establish > an Islamic dispensation in the lands where they live so that they can lead > their lives fully in accordance with Islam and its laws." > > "I admit that there are weaknesses in Pakistan, but these can be > addressed. India has a secular system, which we can under no condition > accept." > > (about Kashmir being an independent state) "It is an Indian ploy, because > India does not want to see Pakistan strengthened, which it would be if > Jammu and Kashmir joins Pakistan. The slogan of Azadi is aimed at > weakening Pakistan. Independence would result in a territory that would > have been a natural part of Pakistan being taken away from it. But, then, > compared to staying with India, independence is a lesser evil." > > ........... aalok aima > > > http://www.newageislam.com/NewAgeIslamInterview_1.aspx?ArticleID=3590 > > 27 Oct 2010, NewAgeIslam.Com > > India has a secular system, which we Kashmiris can under no condition > accept: Syed Ali Shah Geelani > > Syed Ali Shah Geelani of the Jamaat-e Islami of Jammu and Kashmir is a > veteran Kashmiri politician. Presently, he heads the Tehrik-e Hurriyat-e > Jammu Kashmir. He talks about the Kashmir conflict and its possible > solution in this exclusive interview with Yoginder Sikand, > NewAgeIslam.com: > > > Q: In your writings, and in those of other similar Islamist ideologues, > the Kashmir conflict is often described as a war between Islam and > ‘disbelief’. Do you really think it is so? Is it not a political struggle > or a nationalist struggle, actually? > > A: The Kashmir dispute is a fall-out of the Partition of India. The > Muslim-majority parts of British India became Pakistan, and the > Hindu-majority regions became the Dominion of India. There were, at that > time, some 575 princely states in India under indirect British rule. Lord > Mountbatten gave them the choice of joining either India or Pakistan, and > instructed that their choice must be guided by the religious composition > of their populace as well as by the borders they might share with either > India or Pakistan, as the case might be. > On this basis, almost all the princely states opted for either India or > Pakistan. There were, however, three exceptions to this. Hyderabad, a > Hindu-majority state with a Muslim ruler, opted for independence, but > India argued against this on the grounds that the state had a Hindu > majority, and so ordered the Police Action to incorporate the state into > the Indian Dominion. Junagadh, another Hindu-majority state with a Muslim > ruler, opted for Pakistan, but India over-ruled this decision, again on > account of the state’s Hindu majority, and annexed it. If India had > adopted the same principle in the case of Jammu and Kashmir, a > Muslim-majority state with a Hindu ruler, there would have been no > conflict over Kashmir. After all, more than 85% of the population of the > state at that time were Muslims; the major rivers in the state flowed into > Pakistan; the state shared a border of over 750 kilometres with Pakistan; > the only motorable > road connecting Kashmir with the outside world throughout the year passed > from Srinagar to Rawalpindi; and the majority of the people of the state > had cultural and historical ties with the people of Pakistan. > > However, over-ruling these factors, which would have made Jammu and > Kashmir a natural part of Pakistan, in October 1947 the Indian Army > entered the state in the guise of flushing out the Pathan tribesmen, who > had crossed into Kashmir in the wake of large-scale killings of Muslims in > Rajouri and Poonch. Using this incursion an excuse, Hari Singh, the ruler > of Kashmir, engineered the intrusion of Indian forces. The British scholar > Alistair Lamb says that the so-called Instrument of Accession that Haris > Singh is said to have signed to join India temporarily was itself > fraudulent. He claims that Hari Singh did not even sign it. > Thereafter, India itself took the issue of Kashmir to the United Nations. > The UN passed some eighteen resolutions related to Kashmir, recognizing > the status of the state as disputed and calling for a resolution of the > conflict based on the will of the people of the state, which the first > Indian Prime Minister, Jawaharlal Nehru, himself also publicly promised. > Now, all that the people of Jammu and Kashmir are saying is that India > should live up to this promise that it made of holding a plebiscite in > accordance with the UN resolutions. So, this is the basic issue. > Q: So, aren’t you here saying that the conflict is essentially political, > and not specifically religious? > > > A: For a Muslim, no action is permissible which is against Islam. How can > we say that the sacrifices that the Muslims of Kashmir make, the tortures > that they suffer, and the martyrdom that they meet have nothing to do with > Islam, and that they won’t be rewarded by God for this? In this sense, it > is a religious issue also. Islam teaches that Muslims must follow the > guidance of Islam in every action of theirs—not just in prayers but also > in matters such as war and peace, trade, international relations and so > on, because Islam is a complete way of life. If a true Muslim participates > in any struggle, it is for the sake of Islam. So, how can you say that the > Kashmir conflict has nothing to do with religion? > > Q: This might be true in theory, but surely many Kashmiris who are > involved in the movement for separation from India might be motivated by > other factors, including for economic and political reasons, or also due > to a commitment to Kashmiri nationalism, as distinct from Islam? > > > A: I agree that there may be various reasons why different people may > participate in the movement. Yes, there can be many who do not adopt the > guidance of Islam in this regard. They might champion secular democracy > and irreligiousness. Their sacrifices might be motivated by nationalism or > ethnicity, rather than Islam. They might have no problem with the system > of governance in India, their opposition to Indian rule being simply > because of the brutalities of Indian occupation. Of course, one cannot say > that all Kashmiri Muslims think alike. But I am speaking from the point of > view of a practicing Muslim, who accepts Islam as a complete way of life. > For such self-conscious Kashmiri Muslims, it is undoubtedly a religious > issue and their sacrifices are for the sake of the faith. > Q: Maulana Maududi, the founder of the Jamaat-e Islami, who is a major > source of inspiration for you, opposed the creation of Pakistan. So, then, > why is that that you have consistently been advocating Kashmir’s union > with Pakistan? > A: You are wrong here. Maulana Maududi was not opposed to the creation of > Pakistan and to the ‘two nation’ theory. What he was opposed to was the > practice of the Muslim League leaders, who were leading the movement > for Pakistan. He told them that while they talked of the ‘two-nation’ > theory and Islam, they were not serious about establishing an Islamic > state in Pakistan. They were not preparing the activists of the League for > an Islamic state. Maulana Maududi wanted Pakistan to be an Islamic state, > and this was the grounds for his opposition to the Muslim League. But he, > like the League, supported the ‘two-nation’ theory. In fact, the League > did not have any theoretical justification for its ‘two nation’ theory > until this was provided by Maulana Maududi through his copious writings. > > Q: But do you really see Indian Hindus and Muslims as two separate > ‘nations’? After all, they share so much in common. > A: They are totally separate nations. There is no doubt at all about this. > Muslims believe in just one God, but Hindus believe in crores of gods. > Q: But the Prophet Muhammad, in his treaty with the Jews and other > non-Muslims of Medina, described the denizens of Medina as members of one > nation. The leader of the Jamiat ul-Ulema-i Hind and a leading Deobandi > scholar, Maulana Husain Ahmad Madani, even wrote a book to argue against > the League’s ‘two nation’ theory, stressing a composite Indian > nationalism that embraced all the people of India. So, how can the Muslims > and Hindus of one country be considered separate ‘nations’, even by > Islamic standards? > A: Islam lays down that in an Islamic system (nizam) all non-Muslims, > including even atheists, will get equality, justice, security of life and > property and freedom of faith. Maulana Madani’s arguments were > critiqued by Maulana Maududi. > Q: In your prison memoirs, Rudad-e Qafas, you write that ‘It is as > difficult for a Muslim to live in a non-Muslim society as it is for a fish > to live in a desert’. But how can this be so? After all, the pioneers of > Islam in India and in Kashmir itself, mainly Sufi saints, lived and > preached in a society in which Muslims were a very small minority. > > A: I meant to say this in a particular sense. Islam, as I said, is a > complete way of life. No other path is acceptable to God. So, in the > absence of an Islamic polity, it is difficult for Muslims to lead their > lives entirely in accordance with the rules of Islam, which apply to > social affairs as much as they do to personal affairs. For instance, > Muslims in Kashmir under Indian rule live in a system where alcohol, > interest and immorality are rife, so how can we lead our lives completely > in accordance with Islam? Of course, Muslim minorities are Muslims, too, > but their duty must be to work to establish an Islamic dispensation in the > lands where they live so that they can lead their lives fully in > accordance with Islam and its laws. Missionary work to spread Islam is as > much of a duty as is praying and giving alms to the poor. > Now, as for your question about those Sufis who lived and worked in > societies where Muslims were in a minority—they may have been pious > people, but we take as our only model the Prophet Muhammad. > > Q: But, surely, no one is forced to drink alcohol, deal in interest or act > immorally in Kashmir? > A: True, but these things automatically spread since they are allowed by > the present un-Islamic system. So that is why you see the degeneration of > our culture and values happening on such a large scale. > > Q: You mentioned about preaching Islam being a principal duty of all > Muslims. But, surely, for this you need a climate of peace, not of active > hostility, as in Kashmir today? > > > A: Absolutely. I agree with you entirely. No one can deny this. We need to > have good relations with people of other communities. Only then can we > communicate the message of Islam to them. But if one side continues to > oppress the other and heap injustices and says that this should be > considered as ‘peace’, how can it be accepted? If, for instance, Narendra > Modi says that what happened with the Muslims in Gujarat represents peace, > how can anyone accept it? If India stations lakhs of troops in Kashmir and > says this is for establishing peace, how can it be, because these troops > themselves are disturbing the peace? > > Q: You, following other Islamist ideologues, have consistently been > advocating what you call an ‘Islamic state’, seeing this as an > indispensable Islamic duty. To your mind, which is the best functioning > ‘Islamic state’ in the world today? > A: The world-wide Muslim community ummah is today in such a sorry state > that there is no Islamic state anywhere in the real sense. Saudi Arabia is > described as an Islamic state, but it is run by a monarchy, and monarchy > has no sanction in Islam. If Muslim countries, including those that claim > to be ‘Islamic’, were truly Islamic states they would never have been > enslaved to America, as is the case today. They all support America’s > policies and adopt its dictates. They are completely, on all accounts, > dependent on America. They cannot even defend themselves. They have to > rely on America and Europe to do this. They keep their money in American > banks. We say that they should use their wealth to empower themselves and > get out of America’s clutches and convert themselves into genuine Islamic > states. > Q: In the wake of the attacks of 11 September, 2001, how do you see the > impact of American pressure on Arab states, such as Saudi Arabia, to > change their position on Islamist movements? > A: The events of September 2001 have caused most Muslim states to change > their policies and to toe America’s line even more closely. You can see > this happening in Afghanistan and Pakistan. The only Muslim country that > refuses to cave under American pressure is Iran. > Q: And now America is seeking an excuse to attack Iran, is it not? > A: Yes. America is trying to stoke Shia-Sunni rivalries in order to > undermine Iran. It is trying all other such weapons, dividing the Muslims > on the basis of sect, nationality, race and ethnicity against each other > so as to weaken them. And the leaders of most Muslim countries are now > playing the role of agents of the USA, be it in Pakistan, Afghanistan and > Palestine or as is the case with the Saudi monarchs. See what’s happening > in Waziristan, the Frontier Province and Baluchistan, in Pakistan. A > climate is being deliberately created in those parts of Pakistan to > justify American attacks and bombings in the name of flushing out > militants. > > Q: If Pakistan is now so pro-American, acting against its own people, and > if it is not an authentic ‘Islamic state’, then why have you been > advocating Kashmir’s union with it? > > > A: As I said earlier, the Muslim League claimed that Pakistan was won in > the name of Islam, but it did not give its cadre the necessary training to > establish an Islamic state there. Because of this, the influence of the > Army and the country’s Westernised leadership, Pakistan failed to become > an Islamic state. But it was meant to become such a state, which is > something that we want. So, if the people of Jammu and Kashmir were given > the > right to decide between India and Pakistan, the majority, I think, would > prefer the former. > > I admit that there are weaknesses in Pakistan, but these can be addressed. > India has a secular system, which we can under no condition accept. > Because of the oppression that we have been suffering under Indian rule > for the last sixty years, how can we opt for India? In just a few weeks, > in late 1947, some five lakh Muslims were killed by Dogra forces and Hindu > chauvinists in Jammu. In the last seventeen years, over one lakh Kashmiri > Muslims, mainly innocent civilians, have been killed. So many localities > have been burned down, women raped and men rendered missing. After such > brutal experiences, only a blind person would opt in favour of India. > > Q: Many Kashmiri Muslims would rather be independent than join India or > Pakistan. Do you agree? > A: The UN resolutions provide for only two options: joining India or > Pakistan, and if this rule is followed then the majority would, I think, > opt for > Pakistan. However, if the three parties to the dispute—Pakistan, India and > the people of Jammu and Kashmir—come to a consensus on an independent > Jammu and Kashmir, then, as I have repeatedly said, we will > accept that formula also. > Q: In some of your writings you have argued against Kashmir being an > independent state, even claiming that this is an Indian ‘ploy’. Can you > elaborate? > A: This is true. It is an Indian ploy, because India does not want to see > Pakistan strengthened, which it would be if Jammu and Kashmir joins > Pakistan. The slogan of Azadi is aimed at weakening Pakistan. Independence > would result in a territory that would have been a natural part of > Pakistan being taken away from it. But, then, compared to staying with > India, independence is a lesser evil. > > Q: Many Kashmiris, seeing the current political and economic troubles in > Pakistan, might say that they would prefer to be independent. > A: If we get independence, we will accept it. > Q: What if most people of Jammu and Kashmir wish to live in a secular or > democratic set-up, and not a Taliban-style ‘Islamic’ state? > A: We don’t want to bring Taliban-type Islam, but the real Islam of the > Quran and the Practice (Sunnah) of the Prophet. > Q: But the Taliban argued that their state was in accordance with the > Quran and the Sunnah. > A: To claim something is different from acting on that claim. For > instance, while Islam makes it a duty for every Muslim male and female to > acquire education, as soon as the Taliban came to power they banned girls’ > education. What they should have done, instead, was to set up separate > schools for girls. So, like this, there are many issues on which we can > differ. The Islamic state that we would like to establish in Jammu and > Kashmir would be one based on the understanding that all of humanity are > children of the same primal parents, Adam and Eve. They will all be > treated equally and justly. There shall be no discrimination based on > religion. After all, the Prophet once remarked that all creatures are of > the family of God and that the best is he who treats members of God’s > family—which obviously includes non-Muslims, too—in the best way. > Q: You advocate Kashmir’s accession to Pakistan, but today minority > nationalities in Pakistan, such as the Baluchis and the Sindhis, suffering > under Punjabi domination, are struggling for independence. Might not > the same thing happen to the Kashmiris if the state were to join Pakistan? > A: We want to join Pakistan, not be absorbed into it. We would have > internal autonomy. > Q: But, surely, despite Pakistan’s claims, the part of Jammu and Kashmir > under its control—‘Azad Kashmir’—lacks real autonomy? > A: Yes, Azad Kashmir cannot be said to be really autonomous since there, > too, everything happens according to the wishes and directions of the > Federal Government. But we would make sure that our autonomy > be written into the Constitution. > Q: Do you see any significant changes in Pakistan’s policies vis-à-vis > Kashmir in recent years, perhaps under American pressure? > A: Yes, considerable changes can be noticed. Earlier, Pakistan used to > insist on the right to self-determination for the people of Jammu and > Kashmir. Musharraf was the first to change this, arguing for a solution > outside that of the UN resolutions, an out-of-the-box solution. This > constituted the first deviation in Pakistan’s Kashmir policy. Then, > Musharraf began talking of seven zones in Jammu and Kashmir, soft borders > and his four-point formula, which is nothing but a means to preserve the > status quo. > Q: How do you respond to media allegations that the Kashmiri movement for > self-determination is ‘anti-Hindu’? > A: How can our struggle be called ‘anti-Hindu’? It is a struggle for > certain principles. In Hindu mythology, when the Kauravas and the > Pandavas, cousins of each other, were arrayed against each other on the > battlefield, Arjun turned to Krishanji Maharaj, and told him that he could > not bear to fight his own brothers. Why, he asked him, was he asking him > to fight them? He wanted to refuse to fight. But, then, Krishanji Maharaj > said, ‘Arjun, this is a battle for certain principles. In this, do not > consider the fact that those who are opposed to you are your relatives’. > We Kashmiris, too, are engaging in such a battle for certain principles > with the Indian Government, for occupying us against our will and for not > acting on its promise to let us decide our own political future. It is not > a war > against Hindus or the people of India. It is not a communal conflict. In > fact, there are many Indians who support our stand on the right to > self-determination. > > Q: Then why is it that the Indian media, and large sections of the Western > media, too, present the movement as ‘Islamic extremism’ or ‘terrorism’? > A: The Indian media is bound to support India’s military occupation. How > can you expect it to support our cause? I’ve seen so many massacres by the > Indian Army here, but often the media describes them as ‘encounters’ with > ‘militants’. You know how the agents of the Indian Army engineered the > massacre of so many innocent Sikhs in Chhatisinghpora and falsely > attributed this to ‘militants’, in order to convey the misleading message > to the then American President, Bill Clinton, at that time on a visit to > India, that our struggle is a ‘communal’ one, and not a freedom movement. > I can cite so many more such cases to prove this point. > Q: But, if that is so, why is it that you and people like you have not > condemned killings by militants in the same way as you condemn similar > crimes by the Indian Army? > A: Wherever such incidents have happened, we have condemned them, > irrespective of the religion of the victims. The Quran clearly states that > enmity with a people should not make one stray from the path of justice, > because justice is closer to piety. > > Q: If Jammu and Kashmir becomes independent, how do you envisage its > relations with India and Pakistan? > A: It should have brotherly relations with both countries. > Q: Some radical groups active in Kashmir argue that all Hindus are > ‘enemies’ of Islam. What do you feel? > A: No, this is erroneous. There should be no enmity or discrimination with > anyone simply because of his religion, caste, race, colour or country. We > are > permitted to fight only those individuals who fight us or place hurdles in > the path of our faith. With others we should have good relations, and that > applies to our relations with ordinary Hindus as well. So, when some > people argue that as a community the Hindus are ‘enemies of Islam’, it is > wrong. It is not an Islamic way of thinking. > Q: Certain militant groups active in Kashmir say that they will not stop > their war with India until India itself is ‘absorbed’ into Pakistan and > the Pakistani > flag flies atop Delhi’s Red Fort. What is your opinion? > > > A: This is emotional talk and should not be paid attention to. We don’t > agree with this argument. Our fight with India is only to the extent that > India has taken away our right to self-determination. Once we win that > right we will have no problem with India. In fact, if by exercising this > right the majority of the people of Jammu and Kashmir say that they want > to be > with India, we will also accept that. > Q: But don’t you feel certain radical groups active in Kashmir who preach > hatred against Hindus and call for India’s ‘absorption’ into Pakistan are > actually defaming the religion whose cause they claim to champion? > A: Islam has been given a bad name more by Muslims themselves and less by > Hindus. Islam has been damaged less by open ‘disbelief’ (kufr) than by > hidden hypocrisy (munafiqat), by people who claim to be Muslims but are > really not so in practice. > Q: So, would you agree that these groups who condemn all Hindus as > ‘enemies’ are actually misinterpreting Islam? > A: We cannot take responsibility for what others say. You can ask these > people yourself. > Q: What message do you have for the people of India? > A: I will only say that India should honour its promise to the people of > Jammu and Kashmir to let them decide their own political future. Honouring > one’s promise is a major principle of the Hindu religion. > Raja Dasharath, honouring the promise he made to his wife Kaikeyi, gave > his throne to his son Bharat and ordered Ram Chandraji to go into the > forest in exile.Simply in order to keep his promise he sent his elder son > to fourteen years in the forest and gave the throne to Bharat instead. > Bharat was a man of character, and so he placed Ram Chandraji’s sandals on > the throne, believing that his elder brother deserved to rule. So, the > Hindu religion teaches that one should live up to one’s promises, and if > India were to act on the advice of the Hindu scriptures in this regard on > the issue of Kashmir the conflict will easily be solved. > Copyright 2010 @: New Age Islam Foundation > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Fri Oct 29 09:39:26 2010 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 09:39:26 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Arundhati roy has become a joke: Guha Message-ID: Arundhati roy has become a joke: Guha*Link* - http://www.bangaloremirror.com/article/1/201010292010102903332299368035e3f/Arundhati-roy-has-become-a-joke-Guha.html Bangalore Mirror Nine years after the Booker winner snubbed him, eminent historian Ramachandra Guha makes the most of the opportunity to get even with her; says she’s a publicity fiend. Almost a decade after an intellectual controversy of V S Naipaul-Paul Theroux proportions, Ramachandra Guha claims that his stand against Arundhati Roy has been vindicated. “She’s crazy. Arundhati Roy has become a joke, a publicity fiend,” Guha told Bangalore Mirror. “She hops from cause to cause, and just look at the company she’s keeping ... the likes of Syed Ali Shah Geelani, an ultimate bigot who wants to keep women in purdah and bring in an Islamic theocracy.” The central government is contemplating slapping sedition charges on Roy for saying that Kashmir is not an integral part of India, but Guha believes that far more basic issues are involved. There is a reason, Guha says, why as a historian he doesn’t want to get too involved in Kashmir, the Maoist insurgency or, for that matter, even conservation movements. Apart from the obvious hubris of believing that an outsider can ‘speak for’ a community or a victim, Guha thinks it is far more challenging and nuanced from an intellectual standpoint to ‘listen to’ or ‘speak to’ victims as opposed to ‘speak for’ them. Casting himself firmly on the side of traditional historiography as against postmodern ones, that celebrate dissent and flux for their own sake, Guha agreed with Edward Said’s notion that scholarship has to always oppose the guild mentality that unquestioningly privileges notions like ‘country’, ‘citizen’, ‘community’ and the like above everything else. But it is also the scholar’s task, Guha asserts, to discern when an attack on these notions are warranted and when not. The current ‘seditious’ charges on Kashmir, emanating from certain quarters, in his view, certainly aren’t. The highly acrimonious spat between the two writers started after Roy, basking in her Booker fame, became a zealot for the anti-big dam cause. Then followed her opposition to Pokhran II. At that point, Guha in a piece titled ‘Arun Shourie of the Left’ wrote about how celebrity endorsements of social or political protest movements were fraught with danger because sooner than later the celebrity would replace the cause but he offered a seeming olive branch by saying that Roy and he were ‘objectively’ on the same side. Roy, in her riposte in the form of an exhaustive interview to a national fortnightly magazine in Jan 2001, was to dismiss this in no uncertain terms, criticising Guha’s “suspect politics and slapdash scholarship” and concluding that, “We are worlds apart, our politics, our arguments. I’m inclined to put as great a distance as possible between the Guhas of the world and myself.” Later Guha explained to an interviewer: “There was the worry of someone long involved with the environmental debate that the simplifications and exaggerations of Roy would tend to polarize issues and make meaningful environmental reform that much more difficult ...” Guha, who is busy with the launch of his latest book Makers of Modern India - “a kind of bridge” between his magisterial India After Gandhi - which was voted by the Economist and Wall Street Journal as the best book of the year in 2007, and the two-volume biography of Mahatma Gandhi he’s working on - said that “India has this habit of continuously surprising us.” Often in a not-so-good way. Talking of the three interlocutors for Kashmir, who got the job “just because they are close to the dynasty in Delhi”, he said the fact that the Indian state was not just violent or callous but so incompetent too came as a surprise. “The one Muslim in the team has been appointed for no other reason than his surname. The other two don’t even speak Urdu,” he said. “Why couldn’t they have appointed people who would have commanded respect from both sides, people who could act as genuine go-betweens. Right away I can name two - Rajmohan Gandhi and Swami Agnivesh.” In India After Gandhi, Guha claimed that Indian democracy was phifty-phifty, with an efficient ‘hardware’ but also with recurring ‘software’ problems. His implicit argument in that book, as well as in Makers of Modern India, is that despite troubled times, or perhaps especially in troubled times, it becomes necessary to harp on the strengths of Indian democracy. He explained that India was an “unnatural nation”, in that it defied many norms, particularly the one where nation states are founded on a ‘wound’. India had Partition, as horrible and near-fatal a ‘wound’ as possible but it was “Gandhi and Nehru’s genius to obscure that wound, to overcome it and not make India a Hindu Pakistan.” Denying that the Kashmir problem and other mutinies plaguing India were a result of our founding fathers’ refusal to confront the ‘wound’ squarely, he said that it was presumptuous to ponder if Sardar Patel would have handled India’s post-Independence destiny differently from Nehru. “We can always ask ‘what if’. But there has to be plausibility also. Patel was a great man, but Nehru was always, always Gandhi’s chosen successor,” he said. “Moreover, Patel was someone who never appealed to women, south Indians and Muslims which would have made him a suspect ‘national’ leader. A more interesting ‘what if’ would be Subash Chandra Bose - what with the man’s charisma, his visions, his whole unpredictability.” From c.anupam at gmail.com Fri Oct 29 10:59:49 2010 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 10:59:49 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Arundhati roy has become a joke: Guha In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: wow! opportunist vs opportunist... the state of Indian intelligentsia. From samvitr at gmail.com Fri Oct 29 11:05:56 2010 From: samvitr at gmail.com (Samvit) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 11:05:56 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Arundhati roy has become a joke: Guha In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: “She’s crazy. Arundhati Roy has become a joke, a publicity fiend,” Guha told Bangalore Mirror. “She hops from cause to cause, and just look at the company she’s keeping ... the likes of Syed Ali Shah Geelani, an ultimate bigot who wants to keep women in purdah and bring in an Islamic theocracy.” ---> My rickshawalla made a comment about her today. He said-" She is the Rakhi Sawant of the pseudo-intellectuals!!!". It is strange to know that both the axis of society have the same opinion about her. On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 9:39 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > Arundhati roy has become a joke: Guha*Link* - > http://www.bangaloremirror.com/article/1/201010292010102903332299368035e3f/Arundhati-roy-has-become-a-joke-Guha.html > > Bangalore Mirror > > Nine years after the Booker winner snubbed him, eminent historian > Ramachandra Guha makes the most of the opportunity to get even with her; > says she’s a publicity fiend. > > Almost a decade after an intellectual controversy of V S Naipaul-Paul > Theroux proportions, Ramachandra Guha claims that his stand against > Arundhati Roy has been vindicated. > > “She’s crazy. Arundhati Roy has become a joke, a publicity fiend,” Guha told > Bangalore Mirror. “She hops from cause to cause, and just look at the > company she’s keeping ... the likes of Syed Ali Shah Geelani, an ultimate > bigot who wants to keep women in purdah and bring in an Islamic theocracy.” > > The central government is contemplating slapping sedition charges on Roy for > saying that Kashmir is not an integral part of India, but Guha believes that > far more basic issues are involved. There is a reason, Guha says, why as a > historian he doesn’t want to get too involved in Kashmir, the Maoist > insurgency or, for that matter, even conservation movements. Apart from the > obvious hubris of believing that an outsider can ‘speak for’ a community or > a victim, Guha thinks it is far more challenging and nuanced from an > intellectual standpoint to ‘listen to’ or ‘speak to’ victims as opposed to > ‘speak for’ them. > > Casting himself firmly on the side of traditional historiography as against > postmodern ones, that celebrate dissent and flux for their own sake, Guha > agreed with Edward Said’s notion that scholarship has to always oppose the > guild mentality that unquestioningly privileges notions like ‘country’, > ‘citizen’, ‘community’ and the like above everything else. But it is also > the scholar’s task, Guha asserts, to discern when an attack on these notions > are warranted and when not. The current ‘seditious’ charges on Kashmir, > emanating from certain quarters, in his view, certainly aren’t. > > The highly acrimonious spat between the two writers started after Roy, > basking in her Booker fame, became a zealot for the anti-big dam cause. Then > followed her opposition to Pokhran II. At that point, Guha in a piece titled > ‘Arun Shourie of the Left’ wrote about how celebrity endorsements of social > or political protest movements were fraught with danger because sooner than > later the celebrity would replace the cause but he offered a seeming olive > branch by saying that Roy and he were ‘objectively’ on the same side. > > Roy, in her riposte in the form of an exhaustive interview to a national > fortnightly magazine in Jan 2001, was to dismiss this in no uncertain terms, > criticising Guha’s “suspect politics and slapdash scholarship” and > concluding that, “We are worlds apart, our politics, our arguments. I’m > inclined to put as great a distance as possible between the Guhas of the > world and myself.” > > Later Guha explained to an interviewer: “There was the worry of someone long > involved with the environmental debate that the simplifications and > exaggerations of Roy would tend to polarize issues and make meaningful > environmental reform that much more difficult ...” > > Guha, who is busy with the launch of his latest book Makers of Modern India > - “a kind of bridge” between his magisterial India After Gandhi - which was > voted by the Economist and Wall Street Journal as the best book of the year > in 2007, and the two-volume biography of Mahatma Gandhi he’s working on - > said that “India has this habit of continuously surprising us.” Often in a > not-so-good way. > > Talking of the three interlocutors for Kashmir, who got the job “just > because they are close to the dynasty in Delhi”, he said the fact that the > Indian state was not just violent or callous but so incompetent too came as > a surprise. “The one Muslim in the team has been appointed for no other > reason than his surname. The other two don’t even speak Urdu,” he said. “Why > couldn’t they have appointed people who would have commanded respect from > both sides, people who could act as genuine go-betweens. Right away I can > name two - Rajmohan Gandhi and Swami Agnivesh.” > > In India After Gandhi, Guha claimed that Indian democracy was phifty-phifty, > with an efficient ‘hardware’ but also with recurring ‘software’ problems. > His implicit argument in that book, as well as in Makers of Modern India, is > that despite troubled times, or perhaps especially in troubled times, it > becomes necessary to harp on the strengths of Indian democracy. > > He explained that India was an “unnatural nation”, in that it defied many > norms, particularly the one where nation states are founded on a ‘wound’. > India had Partition, as horrible and near-fatal a ‘wound’ as possible but it > was “Gandhi and Nehru’s genius to obscure that wound, to overcome it and not > make India a Hindu Pakistan.” > > Denying that the Kashmir problem and other mutinies plaguing India were a > result of our founding fathers’ refusal to confront the ‘wound’ squarely, he > said that it was presumptuous to ponder if Sardar Patel would have handled > India’s post-Independence destiny differently from Nehru. “We can always ask > ‘what if’. But there has to be plausibility also. Patel was a great man, but > Nehru was always, always Gandhi’s chosen successor,” he said. “Moreover, > Patel was someone who never appealed to women, south Indians and Muslims > which would have made him a suspect ‘national’ leader. A more interesting > ‘what if’ would be Subash Chandra Bose - what with the man’s charisma, his > visions, his whole unpredictability.” > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Samvit Rawal 9422037853 ----------------------------------------------------------- To err is human; to forgive, infrequent.   - Franklin P. Adams From c.anupam at gmail.com Fri Oct 29 11:23:30 2010 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 11:23:30 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Arundhati roy has become a joke: Guha In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Samvit, now you are using a weary rickshaw wallah's shoulders to fire guns. For your information, there are a bunch of rickshaw wallahs who boldly resisted the RSS-endorsed man slaughter in Gujarat during the 2002 riots by taking their safely passengers to their destinations through burning lanes of Vadodara. I wonder what would you say about the boldness. I want to thank you for dragging Rakhi Sawant as well. She is problematic for a lot of lecherous men of our times. I think I was right when I said I saw you in DU passing comments on women's clothing. You and your kinds in all stratas of the society. Ramachandra Guha also took potshots at himself for your kind information: http://www.siasat.com/english/news/india-now-lacks-thinking-politicians-ramachandra-guha?page=0%2C1 New Delhi, October 26: India has been lucky to have a continuous political tradition of high quality original thinking that touched every aspect of human condition but much needs to be done to restore it and make it relevant in today''s context, noted historian and writer Ramachandra Guha has said. "India may be unique in having a long tradition of original political and reflective thinking that has been both continuous and continuously of high quality and touched every aspect of the human condition," he said. Speaking at the fourth Penguin India lecture on "The Indian Political Tradition And Those Who Made It" based on his new book "Makers of Modern India", Guha said here last night that, "The big idea of India owes itself to a remarkable set of men and women who founded and nurtured the Indian political tradition. Like in his book, Guha began with reformer Rajarammohun Roy, describing him as one of India''s first liberal and modernist who was a "precocious pioneer, swimming against the current, both a thinker and an actor, a scholar and social reformer who confronted an orthodox hierarchical and ossified society by Western thought. "He pointed out that unlike today, yesteryear thinkers and makers of Indian political tradition had original, compelling and relevant things to say about democracy, nationalism, economic policy, religion, gender, caste, environment and India''s relations with the world. Giving examples of Mahatma Gandhi, Tagore, Jawaharlal Nehru, Jaiprakash Narayan, M S Golwalker and Ram Manohar Lohia, Guha said, "No politician or social reformer in India''s political society thinks like them anymore. What should worry us is not that we don''t have thinker politicians but the leaders of today are so ignorant of the lineages they claim to represent. He asked whether Congress MP Rahul Gandhi had ever read letters written by Jawaharlal Nehru to chief ministers, whether the BSP leader Mayawati had read Ambedkar''s speeches or whether Samajwadi Party leader Mulayam Singh Yadav could name a single book written by Lohia. Finding other world leaders like French President Nicholas Sarkozy, or British Prime Minister David Cameron or even Sri Lankan President Mahindra Rajpakse deficient in original political thinking, he commended US President Barack Obama describing him as "the closest to come to a thinker politician anywhere in the world". Dubbing Obama''s predecessor George W Bush as "anti-intellectual" and "anti-scholarly", Guha said even George W Bush knew something about the American political tradition. The historian-author who has bagged a seven-book deal with Penguin that includes a two-volume biography of Mahatma Gandhi described the father of the nation as "mother of all battles concerning social reforms. Guha said both Gandhi and Nehru had to confront people with ideologies different from them but they argued cogently. During the lecture, Guha took pot-shots at himself, fellow thinkers and also several ethnic communities in India such as Malayalees, Bengalis, Gujaratis and the Punjabis which left the 700 plus audience in splits. Guha concluded that the Indian political tradition was not merely an obscurely, or antiquarian or of archival interest but one where the multiple legacy of its thinker activist makers was still available to fulfil and redeem the unhonoured and unfulfilled ideals of a "remarkable political experiment in history. ENDS On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 11:05 AM, Samvit wrote: > “She’s crazy. Arundhati Roy has become a joke, a publicity fiend,” Guha > told > Bangalore Mirror. “She hops from cause to cause, and just look at the > company she’s keeping ... the likes of Syed Ali Shah Geelani, an ultimate > bigot who wants to keep women in purdah and bring in an Islamic theocracy.” > > ---> My rickshawalla made a comment about her today. He said-" She is > the Rakhi Sawant of the pseudo-intellectuals!!!". It is strange to > know that both the axis of society have the same opinion about her. > > > On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 9:39 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul > wrote: > > Arundhati roy has become a joke: Guha*Link* - > > > http://www.bangaloremirror.com/article/1/201010292010102903332299368035e3f/Arundhati-roy-has-become-a-joke-Guha.html > > > > Bangalore Mirror > > > > Nine years after the Booker winner snubbed him, eminent historian > > Ramachandra Guha makes the most of the opportunity to get even with her; > > says she’s a publicity fiend. > > > > Almost a decade after an intellectual controversy of V S Naipaul-Paul > > Theroux proportions, Ramachandra Guha claims that his stand against > > Arundhati Roy has been vindicated. > > > > “She’s crazy. Arundhati Roy has become a joke, a publicity fiend,” Guha > told > > Bangalore Mirror. “She hops from cause to cause, and just look at the > > company she’s keeping ... the likes of Syed Ali Shah Geelani, an ultimate > > bigot who wants to keep women in purdah and bring in an Islamic > theocracy.” > > > > The central government is contemplating slapping sedition charges on Roy > for > > saying that Kashmir is not an integral part of India, but Guha believes > that > > far more basic issues are involved. There is a reason, Guha says, why as > a > > historian he doesn’t want to get too involved in Kashmir, the Maoist > > insurgency or, for that matter, even conservation movements. Apart from > the > > obvious hubris of believing that an outsider can ‘speak for’ a community > or > > a victim, Guha thinks it is far more challenging and nuanced from an > > intellectual standpoint to ‘listen to’ or ‘speak to’ victims as opposed > to > > ‘speak for’ them. > > > > Casting himself firmly on the side of traditional historiography as > against > > postmodern ones, that celebrate dissent and flux for their own sake, Guha > > agreed with Edward Said’s notion that scholarship has to always oppose > the > > guild mentality that unquestioningly privileges notions like ‘country’, > > ‘citizen’, ‘community’ and the like above everything else. But it is also > > the scholar’s task, Guha asserts, to discern when an attack on these > notions > > are warranted and when not. The current ‘seditious’ charges on Kashmir, > > emanating from certain quarters, in his view, certainly aren’t. > > > > The highly acrimonious spat between the two writers started after Roy, > > basking in her Booker fame, became a zealot for the anti-big dam cause. > Then > > followed her opposition to Pokhran II. At that point, Guha in a piece > titled > > ‘Arun Shourie of the Left’ wrote about how celebrity endorsements of > social > > or political protest movements were fraught with danger because sooner > than > > later the celebrity would replace the cause but he offered a seeming > olive > > branch by saying that Roy and he were ‘objectively’ on the same side. > > > > Roy, in her riposte in the form of an exhaustive interview to a national > > fortnightly magazine in Jan 2001, was to dismiss this in no uncertain > terms, > > criticising Guha’s “suspect politics and slapdash scholarship” and > > concluding that, “We are worlds apart, our politics, our arguments. I’m > > inclined to put as great a distance as possible between the Guhas of the > > world and myself.” > > > > Later Guha explained to an interviewer: “There was the worry of someone > long > > involved with the environmental debate that the simplifications and > > exaggerations of Roy would tend to polarize issues and make meaningful > > environmental reform that much more difficult ...” > > > > Guha, who is busy with the launch of his latest book Makers of Modern > India > > - “a kind of bridge” between his magisterial India After Gandhi - which > was > > voted by the Economist and Wall Street Journal as the best book of the > year > > in 2007, and the two-volume biography of Mahatma Gandhi he’s working on - > > said that “India has this habit of continuously surprising us.” Often in > a > > not-so-good way. > > > > Talking of the three interlocutors for Kashmir, who got the job “just > > because they are close to the dynasty in Delhi”, he said the fact that > the > > Indian state was not just violent or callous but so incompetent too came > as > > a surprise. “The one Muslim in the team has been appointed for no other > > reason than his surname. The other two don’t even speak Urdu,” he said. > “Why > > couldn’t they have appointed people who would have commanded respect from > > both sides, people who could act as genuine go-betweens. Right away I can > > name two - Rajmohan Gandhi and Swami Agnivesh.” > > > > In India After Gandhi, Guha claimed that Indian democracy was > phifty-phifty, > > with an efficient ‘hardware’ but also with recurring ‘software’ problems. > > His implicit argument in that book, as well as in Makers of Modern India, > is > > that despite troubled times, or perhaps especially in troubled times, it > > becomes necessary to harp on the strengths of Indian democracy. > > > > He explained that India was an “unnatural nation”, in that it defied many > > norms, particularly the one where nation states are founded on a ‘wound’. > > India had Partition, as horrible and near-fatal a ‘wound’ as possible but > it > > was “Gandhi and Nehru’s genius to obscure that wound, to overcome it and > not > > make India a Hindu Pakistan.” > > > > Denying that the Kashmir problem and other mutinies plaguing India were a > > result of our founding fathers’ refusal to confront the ‘wound’ squarely, > he > > said that it was presumptuous to ponder if Sardar Patel would have > handled > > India’s post-Independence destiny differently from Nehru. “We can always > ask > > ‘what if’. But there has to be plausibility also. Patel was a great man, > but > > Nehru was always, always Gandhi’s chosen successor,” he said. “Moreover, > > Patel was someone who never appealed to women, south Indians and Muslims > > which would have made him a suspect ‘national’ leader. A more interesting > > ‘what if’ would be Subash Chandra Bose - what with the man’s charisma, > his > > visions, his whole unpredictability.” > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > Samvit Rawal > 9422037853 > ----------------------------------------------------------- > To err is human; to forgive, infrequent. > - Franklin P. Adams > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From samvitr at gmail.com Fri Oct 29 11:43:58 2010 From: samvitr at gmail.com (Samvit) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 11:43:58 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Arundhati roy has become a joke: Guha In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You are jumping to conclusions again. Let others speak to. The torch bearers of Arundhati's legacy need to know that they are not the lost (tch, tch i meant "last") word on Indian democracy and social structure. A rickshwallah is a boon to society, they don't need your certificate on morality and secularism. You "see" men like me in DU, Colaba and in gyms, sometimes try seeing them inside you too. No one is proud of what happened in Gujarat but no one should forget that it was sequel to mass murder of people on a train. Unfortunately for you, the people on that train were not upper caste hindus but belonged to a cross section of society. I, at times, wonder what would have happened if a train of white people would have been burnt in the US by blacks. Or if a train full of muslims would have been burnt by hindus in Pakstan or Bangladesh. Or if a train full of Chines Han would been burnt by Lhobas or the Tibetians. Please allow people to voice their opinion. This is a forum for free speech. It is so ironical, i see the old hats using abusive language just to prove their point. A supposed inspiration from Arundhati. On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 11:23 AM, anupam chakravartty wrote: > Samvit, now you are using a weary rickshaw wallah's shoulders to fire guns. > For your information, there are a bunch of rickshaw wallahs who boldly > resisted the RSS-endorsed man slaughter in Gujarat during the 2002 riots by > taking their safely passengers to their destinations through burning lanes > of Vadodara. I wonder what would you say about the boldness. I want to thank > you for dragging Rakhi Sawant as well. She is problematic for a lot of > lecherous men of our times. I think I was right when I said I saw you in DU > passing comments on women's clothing. You and your kinds in all stratas of > the society. > > Ramachandra Guha also took potshots at himself for your kind information: > > http://www.siasat.com/english/news/india-now-lacks-thinking-politicians-ramachandra-guha?page=0%2C1 > > New Delhi, October 26: India has been lucky to have a continuous political > tradition of high quality original thinking that touched every aspect of > human condition but much needs to be done to restore it and make it relevant > in today''s context, noted historian and writer Ramachandra Guha has said. > > "India may be unique in having a long tradition of original political and > reflective thinking that has been both continuous and continuously of high > quality and touched every aspect of the human condition," he said. > > Speaking at the fourth Penguin India lecture on "The Indian Political > Tradition And Those Who Made It" based on his new book "Makers of Modern > India", Guha said here last night that, "The big idea of India owes itself > to a remarkable set of men and women who founded and nurtured the Indian > political tradition. Like in his book, Guha began with reformer Rajarammohun > Roy, describing him as one of India''s first liberal and modernist who was a > "precocious pioneer, swimming against the current, both a thinker and an > actor, a scholar and social reformer who confronted an orthodox hierarchical > and ossified society by Western thought. > > "He pointed out that unlike today, yesteryear thinkers and makers of Indian > political tradition had original, compelling and relevant things to say > about democracy, nationalism, economic policy, religion, gender, caste, > environment and India''s relations with the world. Giving examples of > Mahatma Gandhi, Tagore, Jawaharlal Nehru, Jaiprakash Narayan, M S Golwalker > and Ram Manohar Lohia, Guha said, "No politician or social reformer in > India''s political society thinks like them anymore. > > What should worry us is not that we don''t have thinker politicians but the > leaders of today are so ignorant of the lineages they claim to represent. He > asked whether Congress MP Rahul Gandhi had ever read letters written by > Jawaharlal Nehru to chief ministers, whether the BSP leader Mayawati had > read Ambedkar''s speeches or whether Samajwadi Party leader Mulayam Singh > Yadav could name a single book written by Lohia. > > Finding other world leaders like French President Nicholas Sarkozy, or > British Prime Minister David Cameron or even Sri Lankan President Mahindra > Rajpakse deficient in original political thinking, he commended US President > Barack Obama describing him as "the closest to come to a thinker politician > anywhere in the world". Dubbing Obama''s predecessor George W Bush as > "anti-intellectual" and "anti-scholarly", Guha said even George W Bush knew > something about the American political tradition. > > The historian-author who has bagged a seven-book deal with Penguin that > includes a two-volume biography of Mahatma Gandhi described the father of > the nation as "mother of all battles concerning social reforms. > > Guha said both Gandhi and Nehru had to confront people with ideologies > different from them but they argued cogently. > > During the lecture, Guha took pot-shots at himself, fellow thinkers and also > several ethnic communities in India such as Malayalees, Bengalis, Gujaratis > and the Punjabis which left the 700 plus audience in splits. Guha concluded > that the Indian political tradition was not merely an obscurely, or > antiquarian or of archival interest but one where the multiple legacy of its > thinker activist makers was still available to fulfil and redeem the > unhonoured and unfulfilled ideals of a "remarkable political experiment in > history. > > ENDS > > On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 11:05 AM, Samvit wrote: >> >> “She’s crazy. Arundhati Roy has become a joke, a publicity fiend,” Guha >> told >> Bangalore Mirror. “She hops from cause to cause, and just look at the >> company she’s keeping ... the likes of Syed Ali Shah Geelani, an ultimate >> bigot who wants to keep women in purdah and bring in an Islamic >> theocracy.” >> >> ---> My rickshawalla made a comment about her today. He said-" She is >> the Rakhi Sawant of the pseudo-intellectuals!!!". It is strange to >> know that both the axis of society have the same opinion about her. >> >> >> On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 9:39 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul >> wrote: >> > Arundhati roy has become a joke: Guha*Link* - >> > >> > http://www.bangaloremirror.com/article/1/201010292010102903332299368035e3f/Arundhati-roy-has-become-a-joke-Guha.html >> > >> > Bangalore Mirror >> > >> > Nine years after the Booker winner snubbed him, eminent historian >> > Ramachandra Guha makes the most of the opportunity to get even with her; >> > says she’s a publicity fiend. >> > >> > Almost a decade after an intellectual controversy of V S Naipaul-Paul >> > Theroux proportions, Ramachandra Guha claims that his stand against >> > Arundhati Roy has been vindicated. >> > >> > “She’s crazy. Arundhati Roy has become a joke, a publicity fiend,” Guha >> > told >> > Bangalore Mirror. “She hops from cause to cause, and just look at the >> > company she’s keeping ... the likes of Syed Ali Shah Geelani, an >> > ultimate >> > bigot who wants to keep women in purdah and bring in an Islamic >> > theocracy.” >> > >> > The central government is contemplating slapping sedition charges on Roy >> > for >> > saying that Kashmir is not an integral part of India, but Guha believes >> > that >> > far more basic issues are involved. There is a reason, Guha says, why as >> > a >> > historian he doesn’t want to get too involved in Kashmir, the Maoist >> > insurgency or, for that matter, even conservation movements. Apart from >> > the >> > obvious hubris of believing that an outsider can ‘speak for’ a community >> > or >> > a victim, Guha thinks it is far more challenging and nuanced from an >> > intellectual standpoint to ‘listen to’ or ‘speak to’ victims as opposed >> > to >> > ‘speak for’ them. >> > >> > Casting himself firmly on the side of traditional historiography as >> > against >> > postmodern ones, that celebrate dissent and flux for their own sake, >> > Guha >> > agreed with Edward Said’s notion that scholarship has to always oppose >> > the >> > guild mentality that unquestioningly privileges notions like ‘country’, >> > ‘citizen’, ‘community’ and the like above everything else. But it is >> > also >> > the scholar’s task, Guha asserts, to discern when an attack on these >> > notions >> > are warranted and when not. The current ‘seditious’ charges on Kashmir, >> > emanating from certain quarters, in his view, certainly aren’t. >> > >> > The highly acrimonious spat between the two writers started after Roy, >> > basking in her Booker fame, became a zealot for the anti-big dam cause. >> > Then >> > followed her opposition to Pokhran II. At that point, Guha in a piece >> > titled >> > ‘Arun Shourie of the Left’ wrote about how celebrity endorsements of >> > social >> > or political protest movements were fraught with danger because sooner >> > than >> > later the celebrity would replace the cause but he offered a seeming >> > olive >> > branch by saying that Roy and he were ‘objectively’ on the same side. >> > >> > Roy, in her riposte in the form of an exhaustive interview to a national >> > fortnightly magazine in Jan 2001, was to dismiss this in no uncertain >> > terms, >> > criticising Guha’s “suspect politics and slapdash scholarship” and >> > concluding that, “We are worlds apart, our politics, our arguments. I’m >> > inclined to put as great a distance as possible between the Guhas of the >> > world and myself.” >> > >> > Later Guha explained to an interviewer: “There was the worry of someone >> > long >> > involved with the environmental debate that the simplifications and >> > exaggerations of Roy would tend to polarize issues and make meaningful >> > environmental reform that much more difficult ...” >> > >> > Guha, who is busy with the launch of his latest book Makers of Modern >> > India >> > - “a kind of bridge” between his magisterial India After Gandhi - which >> > was >> > voted by the Economist and Wall Street Journal as the best book of the >> > year >> > in 2007, and the two-volume biography of Mahatma Gandhi he’s working on >> > - >> > said that “India has this habit of continuously surprising us.” Often in >> > a >> > not-so-good way. >> > >> > Talking of the three interlocutors for Kashmir, who got the job “just >> > because they are close to the dynasty in Delhi”, he said the fact that >> > the >> > Indian state was not just violent or callous but so incompetent too came >> > as >> > a surprise. “The one Muslim in the team has been appointed for no other >> > reason than his surname. The other two don’t even speak Urdu,” he said. >> > “Why >> > couldn’t they have appointed people who would have commanded respect >> > from >> > both sides, people who could act as genuine go-betweens. Right away I >> > can >> > name two - Rajmohan Gandhi and Swami Agnivesh.” >> > >> > In India After Gandhi, Guha claimed that Indian democracy was >> > phifty-phifty, >> > with an efficient ‘hardware’ but also with recurring ‘software’ >> > problems. >> > His implicit argument in that book, as well as in Makers of Modern >> > India, is >> > that despite troubled times, or perhaps especially in troubled times, it >> > becomes necessary to harp on the strengths of Indian democracy. >> > >> > He explained that India was an “unnatural nation”, in that it defied >> > many >> > norms, particularly the one where nation states are founded on a >> > ‘wound’. >> > India had Partition, as horrible and near-fatal a ‘wound’ as possible >> > but it >> > was “Gandhi and Nehru’s genius to obscure that wound, to overcome it and >> > not >> > make India a Hindu Pakistan.” >> > >> > Denying that the Kashmir problem and other mutinies plaguing India were >> > a >> > result of our founding fathers’ refusal to confront the ‘wound’ >> > squarely, he >> > said that it was presumptuous to ponder if Sardar Patel would have >> > handled >> > India’s post-Independence destiny differently from Nehru. “We can always >> > ask >> > ‘what if’. But there has to be plausibility also. Patel was a great man, >> > but >> > Nehru was always, always Gandhi’s chosen successor,” he said. “Moreover, >> > Patel was someone who never appealed to women, south Indians and Muslims >> > which would have made him a suspect ‘national’ leader. A more >> > interesting >> > ‘what if’ would be Subash Chandra Bose - what with the man’s charisma, >> > his >> > visions, his whole unpredictability.” >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> -- >> Samvit Rawal >> 9422037853 >> ----------------------------------------------------------- >> To err is human; to forgive, infrequent. >>   - Franklin P. Adams >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- Samvit Rawal 9422037853 ----------------------------------------------------------- To err is human; to forgive, infrequent.   - Franklin P. Adams From nc-agricowi at netcologne.de Fri Oct 29 13:47:02 2010 From: nc-agricowi at netcologne.de (netEX) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 10:17:02 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] =?iso-8859-1?q?netEX-_calls_and_deadlines_--=3E_Nov?= =?iso-8859-1?q?ember_2010?= Message-ID: <20101029101702.FB77CFBD.1E6506B6@192.168.0.3> netEX: calls & deadlines -->November 2010 ------------------------------------- NewMediafest'2010 10 Years [NewMediaArtProjectNetwork]:||cologne ------------------------------------- newsletter contents *news *calls & deadlines --> 01 Call: 2011 deadlines internal 11 Calls: November 2010 deadlines external 11 Calls: ongoing external/internal ------------------------------------------------ News On 1 January 2011, artvideoKOELN & CologneOFF will launch the new festival project for 2011 "CologneOFF 2011 - videoart in a global context to take place simultaneously in physical & virtual space 1 January - 31 December 2011 more info on http://coff.newmediafest.org ------------------------------------------------ Calls & deadlines ---> ------------------------------------------------ Deadlines internal ------------------------------------------------ NewMediaFest'2010 has currently 1 call running NewMediaFest'2010 final deadline 31 October 2010 Java Museum - Forum for internet Technology in Contemporary Art will be celebrating in 2010 its 10th anniversary and is looking for Internet based art from the years 2000-2010 details, regulations and entry form can be found on http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=1428 // artvideoKOELN & CologneOFF launched the new call for 2011 CologneOFF 2011 - videoart in a global context artists are invited to submit experimental film and videoart Deadline: 1 March 2011 http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=2729 ------------------------------------------------ November 2010 deadlines: external ------------------------------------------------ 30 November 3rd International Arts Festival Damaskus/Syria http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=2752 30 November E-art on air http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=2709 30 November Action Sharing - Torino/It http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=2731 30 November 13th One World Documentary Film Festival Prague/Czech Republic http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=2572 28 November Moves 11- Liverpool/UK http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=2770 19 November Second Life - Machinima artists wanted http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=2619 16 November 5th International Art Prize Arte Laguna http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=2542 14 November Soundgate - Aalborg/DK http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=2699 5 November Liquid Cities & Temporary Identities http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=2754 1 November Networked Art http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=2702 1 November Ghost Hunter - screening project London/UK http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=2594 ----------------------------------------------- Ongoing calls: external/internal ----------------------------------------------- ---> SFC - Shoah Film Collection by VideoChannel & A Virtual Memorial Foundation ---> Selfshadows 2.= - net based project by Javier Bedrina -->Videos for Bivouac Projects Sumter/USA -->OUTCASTING - web based screenings -->Films and video screenings Sioux City (USA) -->Laisle screenings Rio de Janeiro/Brazil -->Videos for Helsinki based video gallery - 00130 Gallery -->Web based works for 00130 Gallery Helsinki/Finland -->Project: Repetition as a Model for Progression by Marianne Holm Hansen -->US webjournal Atomic Unicorn seeks netart and video art for coming editions -->TAGallery and more deadlines on http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?page_id=4 ----------------------------------------------- NetEX - networked experience http://netex.nmartproject.net # calls in the external section--> http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?cat=3 # calls in the internal section--> http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?cat=1 ----------------------------------------------- # This newsletter is also released on http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?cat=9 # netEX - networked experiences is a free information service powered by [NewMediaArtProjectNetwork]:||cologne http://www.nmartproject.net - the experimental platform for art and new media from Cologne/Germany # info & contact: info (at) nmartproject.net From rajkamalgoswami at gmail.com Fri Oct 29 18:11:34 2010 From: rajkamalgoswami at gmail.com (Rajkamal Goswami) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 18:11:34 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Arundhati roy has become a joke: Guha In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Aditya's link is broken this is the correct one to the guha-roy story. http://www.bangaloremirror.com/article/1/2010102920101029155404924b7f4ac07/Arundhati-Roy-has-become-a-joke-Guha.html On 10/29/10, Samvit wrote: > You are jumping to conclusions again. Let others speak to. The torch > bearers of Arundhati's legacy need to know that they are not the lost > (tch, tch i meant "last") word on Indian democracy and social > structure. A rickshwallah is a boon to society, they don't need your > certificate on morality and secularism. You "see" men like me in DU, > Colaba and in gyms, sometimes try seeing them inside you too. > No one is proud of what happened in Gujarat but no one should forget > that it was sequel to mass murder of people on a train. Unfortunately > for you, the people on that train were not upper caste hindus but > belonged to a cross section of society. > > I, at times, wonder what would have happened if a train of white > people would have been burnt in the US by blacks. Or if a train full > of muslims would have been burnt by hindus in Pakstan or Bangladesh. > Or if a train full of Chines Han would been burnt by Lhobas or the > Tibetians. > Please allow people to voice their opinion. This is a forum for free > speech. It is so ironical, i see the old hats using abusive language > just to prove their point. A supposed inspiration from Arundhati. > > > > On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 11:23 AM, anupam chakravartty > wrote: >> Samvit, now you are using a weary rickshaw wallah's shoulders to fire >> guns. >> For your information, there are a bunch of rickshaw wallahs who boldly >> resisted the RSS-endorsed man slaughter in Gujarat during the 2002 riots >> by >> taking their safely passengers to their destinations through burning lanes >> of Vadodara. I wonder what would you say about the boldness. I want to >> thank >> you for dragging Rakhi Sawant as well. She is problematic for a lot of >> lecherous men of our times. I think I was right when I said I saw you in >> DU >> passing comments on women's clothing. You and your kinds in all stratas of >> the society. >> >> Ramachandra Guha also took potshots at himself for your kind information: >> >> http://www.siasat.com/english/news/india-now-lacks-thinking-politicians-ramachandra-guha?page=0%2C1 >> >> New Delhi, October 26: India has been lucky to have a continuous political >> tradition of high quality original thinking that touched every aspect of >> human condition but much needs to be done to restore it and make it >> relevant >> in today''s context, noted historian and writer Ramachandra Guha has said. >> >> "India may be unique in having a long tradition of original political and >> reflective thinking that has been both continuous and continuously of high >> quality and touched every aspect of the human condition," he said. >> >> Speaking at the fourth Penguin India lecture on "The Indian Political >> Tradition And Those Who Made It" based on his new book "Makers of Modern >> India", Guha said here last night that, "The big idea of India owes itself >> to a remarkable set of men and women who founded and nurtured the Indian >> political tradition. Like in his book, Guha began with reformer >> Rajarammohun >> Roy, describing him as one of India''s first liberal and modernist who was >> a >> "precocious pioneer, swimming against the current, both a thinker and an >> actor, a scholar and social reformer who confronted an orthodox >> hierarchical >> and ossified society by Western thought. >> >> "He pointed out that unlike today, yesteryear thinkers and makers of >> Indian >> political tradition had original, compelling and relevant things to say >> about democracy, nationalism, economic policy, religion, gender, caste, >> environment and India''s relations with the world. Giving examples of >> Mahatma Gandhi, Tagore, Jawaharlal Nehru, Jaiprakash Narayan, M S >> Golwalker >> and Ram Manohar Lohia, Guha said, "No politician or social reformer in >> India''s political society thinks like them anymore. >> >> What should worry us is not that we don''t have thinker politicians but >> the >> leaders of today are so ignorant of the lineages they claim to represent. >> He >> asked whether Congress MP Rahul Gandhi had ever read letters written by >> Jawaharlal Nehru to chief ministers, whether the BSP leader Mayawati had >> read Ambedkar''s speeches or whether Samajwadi Party leader Mulayam Singh >> Yadav could name a single book written by Lohia. >> >> Finding other world leaders like French President Nicholas Sarkozy, or >> British Prime Minister David Cameron or even Sri Lankan President Mahindra >> Rajpakse deficient in original political thinking, he commended US >> President >> Barack Obama describing him as "the closest to come to a thinker >> politician >> anywhere in the world". Dubbing Obama''s predecessor George W Bush as >> "anti-intellectual" and "anti-scholarly", Guha said even George W Bush >> knew >> something about the American political tradition. >> >> The historian-author who has bagged a seven-book deal with Penguin that >> includes a two-volume biography of Mahatma Gandhi described the father of >> the nation as "mother of all battles concerning social reforms. >> >> Guha said both Gandhi and Nehru had to confront people with ideologies >> different from them but they argued cogently. >> >> During the lecture, Guha took pot-shots at himself, fellow thinkers and >> also >> several ethnic communities in India such as Malayalees, Bengalis, >> Gujaratis >> and the Punjabis which left the 700 plus audience in splits. Guha >> concluded >> that the Indian political tradition was not merely an obscurely, or >> antiquarian or of archival interest but one where the multiple legacy of >> its >> thinker activist makers was still available to fulfil and redeem the >> unhonoured and unfulfilled ideals of a "remarkable political experiment in >> history. >> >> ENDS >> >> On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 11:05 AM, Samvit wrote: >>> >>> “She’s crazy. Arundhati Roy has become a joke, a publicity fiend,” Guha >>> told >>> Bangalore Mirror. “She hops from cause to cause, and just look at the >>> company she’s keeping ... the likes of Syed Ali Shah Geelani, an ultimate >>> bigot who wants to keep women in purdah and bring in an Islamic >>> theocracy.” >>> >>> ---> My rickshawalla made a comment about her today. He said-" She is >>> the Rakhi Sawant of the pseudo-intellectuals!!!". It is strange to >>> know that both the axis of society have the same opinion about her. >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 9:39 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul >>> wrote: >>> > Arundhati roy has become a joke: Guha*Link* - >>> > >>> > http://www.bangaloremirror.com/article/1/201010292010102903332299368035e3f/Arundhati-roy-has-become-a-joke-Guha.html >>> > >>> > Bangalore Mirror >>> > >>> > Nine years after the Booker winner snubbed him, eminent historian >>> > Ramachandra Guha makes the most of the opportunity to get even with >>> > her; >>> > says she’s a publicity fiend. >>> > >>> > Almost a decade after an intellectual controversy of V S Naipaul-Paul >>> > Theroux proportions, Ramachandra Guha claims that his stand against >>> > Arundhati Roy has been vindicated. >>> > >>> > “She’s crazy. Arundhati Roy has become a joke, a publicity fiend,” Guha >>> > told >>> > Bangalore Mirror. “She hops from cause to cause, and just look at the >>> > company she’s keeping ... the likes of Syed Ali Shah Geelani, an >>> > ultimate >>> > bigot who wants to keep women in purdah and bring in an Islamic >>> > theocracy.” >>> > >>> > The central government is contemplating slapping sedition charges on >>> > Roy >>> > for >>> > saying that Kashmir is not an integral part of India, but Guha believes >>> > that >>> > far more basic issues are involved. There is a reason, Guha says, why >>> > as >>> > a >>> > historian he doesn’t want to get too involved in Kashmir, the Maoist >>> > insurgency or, for that matter, even conservation movements. Apart from >>> > the >>> > obvious hubris of believing that an outsider can ‘speak for’ a >>> > community >>> > or >>> > a victim, Guha thinks it is far more challenging and nuanced from an >>> > intellectual standpoint to ‘listen to’ or ‘speak to’ victims as opposed >>> > to >>> > ‘speak for’ them. >>> > >>> > Casting himself firmly on the side of traditional historiography as >>> > against >>> > postmodern ones, that celebrate dissent and flux for their own sake, >>> > Guha >>> > agreed with Edward Said’s notion that scholarship has to always oppose >>> > the >>> > guild mentality that unquestioningly privileges notions like ‘country’, >>> > ‘citizen’, ‘community’ and the like above everything else. But it is >>> > also >>> > the scholar’s task, Guha asserts, to discern when an attack on these >>> > notions >>> > are warranted and when not. The current ‘seditious’ charges on Kashmir, >>> > emanating from certain quarters, in his view, certainly aren’t. >>> > >>> > The highly acrimonious spat between the two writers started after Roy, >>> > basking in her Booker fame, became a zealot for the anti-big dam cause. >>> > Then >>> > followed her opposition to Pokhran II. At that point, Guha in a piece >>> > titled >>> > ‘Arun Shourie of the Left’ wrote about how celebrity endorsements of >>> > social >>> > or political protest movements were fraught with danger because sooner >>> > than >>> > later the celebrity would replace the cause but he offered a seeming >>> > olive >>> > branch by saying that Roy and he were ‘objectively’ on the same side. >>> > >>> > Roy, in her riposte in the form of an exhaustive interview to a >>> > national >>> > fortnightly magazine in Jan 2001, was to dismiss this in no uncertain >>> > terms, >>> > criticising Guha’s “suspect politics and slapdash scholarship” and >>> > concluding that, “We are worlds apart, our politics, our arguments. I’m >>> > inclined to put as great a distance as possible between the Guhas of >>> > the >>> > world and myself.” >>> > >>> > Later Guha explained to an interviewer: “There was the worry of someone >>> > long >>> > involved with the environmental debate that the simplifications and >>> > exaggerations of Roy would tend to polarize issues and make meaningful >>> > environmental reform that much more difficult ...” >>> > >>> > Guha, who is busy with the launch of his latest book Makers of Modern >>> > India >>> > - “a kind of bridge” between his magisterial India After Gandhi - which >>> > was >>> > voted by the Economist and Wall Street Journal as the best book of the >>> > year >>> > in 2007, and the two-volume biography of Mahatma Gandhi he’s working on >>> > - >>> > said that “India has this habit of continuously surprising us.” Often >>> > in >>> > a >>> > not-so-good way. >>> > >>> > Talking of the three interlocutors for Kashmir, who got the job “just >>> > because they are close to the dynasty in Delhi”, he said the fact that >>> > the >>> > Indian state was not just violent or callous but so incompetent too >>> > came >>> > as >>> > a surprise. “The one Muslim in the team has been appointed for no other >>> > reason than his surname. The other two don’t even speak Urdu,” he said. >>> > “Why >>> > couldn’t they have appointed people who would have commanded respect >>> > from >>> > both sides, people who could act as genuine go-betweens. Right away I >>> > can >>> > name two - Rajmohan Gandhi and Swami Agnivesh.” >>> > >>> > In India After Gandhi, Guha claimed that Indian democracy was >>> > phifty-phifty, >>> > with an efficient ‘hardware’ but also with recurring ‘software’ >>> > problems. >>> > His implicit argument in that book, as well as in Makers of Modern >>> > India, is >>> > that despite troubled times, or perhaps especially in troubled times, >>> > it >>> > becomes necessary to harp on the strengths of Indian democracy. >>> > >>> > He explained that India was an “unnatural nation”, in that it defied >>> > many >>> > norms, particularly the one where nation states are founded on a >>> > ‘wound’. >>> > India had Partition, as horrible and near-fatal a ‘wound’ as possible >>> > but it >>> > was “Gandhi and Nehru’s genius to obscure that wound, to overcome it >>> > and >>> > not >>> > make India a Hindu Pakistan.” >>> > >>> > Denying that the Kashmir problem and other mutinies plaguing India were >>> > a >>> > result of our founding fathers’ refusal to confront the ‘wound’ >>> > squarely, he >>> > said that it was presumptuous to ponder if Sardar Patel would have >>> > handled >>> > India’s post-Independence destiny differently from Nehru. “We can >>> > always >>> > ask >>> > ‘what if’. But there has to be plausibility also. Patel was a great >>> > man, >>> > but >>> > Nehru was always, always Gandhi’s chosen successor,” he said. >>> > “Moreover, >>> > Patel was someone who never appealed to women, south Indians and >>> > Muslims >>> > which would have made him a suspect ‘national’ leader. A more >>> > interesting >>> > ‘what if’ would be Subash Chandra Bose - what with the man’s charisma, >>> > his >>> > visions, his whole unpredictability.” >>> > _________________________________________ >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> > Critiques & Collaborations >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> > subscribe in the subject header. >>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Samvit Rawal >>> 9422037853 >>> ----------------------------------------------------------- >>> To err is human; to forgive, infrequent. >>>   - Franklin P. Adams >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > > > -- > Samvit Rawal > 9422037853 > ----------------------------------------------------------- > To err is human; to forgive, infrequent. >   - Franklin P. Adams > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Rajkamal From c.anupam at gmail.com Fri Oct 29 18:40:49 2010 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 18:40:49 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Arundhati roy has become a joke: Guha In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Samvit, Your conclusions are very immediate. Who is stopping you from speaking? How did you know that godhra train was burnt by someone? How did you know that? Do you think your act of dragging anyone inside you little observatory? I am not attesting a certificate for anyone here Samvit. I passed a judgment on you previously because your remarks on Roy. Auto rickshaw wallahs steer people to their destinations. It is he who decides whether he should take me or not on his rickshaw. That is his right even if you or I call policemen to complain about his unwillingness to take us along with him. It is this decision that differs from person to person, whether X is a autorickshaw wallah or someone else. By using an individual's observation, you have consciously made a statement about all the autorickshaw wallahs. Regards anupam From anu.mukh at gmail.com Fri Oct 29 19:09:01 2010 From: anu.mukh at gmail.com (anuradha mukherjee) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 19:09:01 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Arundhati roy has become a joke: Guha In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A rickshawalla told you Arundhati Roy is a "psuedo intellectual", in fact, "the Rakhi Sawant of the pseudo-intellectuals!!!". Pardon my sense of incredulity, but I find this coment rather hard to believe. Now, I also take rickshaws and autorickshaws and have met many such people who have incredible political opinions, but this one sounds a bit far fetched. I don't have anything against right wing or left wing sympathies, and many express those thoughts here, provided they don't insult the intelligence of the readers here. "Please allow people to voice their opinion. This is a forum for free speech. It is so ironical, i see the old hats using abusive language just to prove their point. A supposed inspiration from Arundhati." You, if I remember correctly, started this entire string with a speculation about someone's dress sense or supposed "morals" becasue you don't agree with her point of view. You really need to reconsider your own line of thought before you make these pleas of "Freedom of Speech." On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 6:40 PM, anupam chakravartty wrote: > Samvit, > > Your conclusions are very immediate. Who is stopping you from speaking? How > did you know that godhra train was burnt by someone? How did you know that? > > Do you think your act of dragging anyone inside you little observatory? I > am > not attesting a certificate for anyone here Samvit. I passed a judgment on > you previously because your remarks on Roy. Auto rickshaw wallahs steer > people to their destinations. It is he who decides whether he should take > me > or not on his rickshaw. That is his right even if you or I call policemen > to > complain about his unwillingness to take us along with him. It is this > decision that differs from person to person, whether X is a autorickshaw > wallah or someone else. By using an individual's observation, you have > consciously made a statement about all the autorickshaw wallahs. > > Regards anupam > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From rama.sangye at gmail.com Fri Oct 29 19:38:23 2010 From: rama.sangye at gmail.com (V Ramaswamy) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 19:38:23 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Arundhati roy has become a joke: Guha In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Talking about rickshaw-wallahs ... in early 2005, Gunter Grass was in Kolkata, invited by the Goethe Institut / Max Mueller Bhavan. One of the programmes of his visit was a launch cruise on the Hooghly, stopping at Serampore, and visiting the Serampore College. Cycle-rickshaws had to be taken from the river-jetty at Serampore to the college. The puller of the rickshaw which Grass took, asked if this was'nt Gunter Grass. He said he had seen his picture and read about him in the newspaper. Best VR From anu.mukh at gmail.com Fri Oct 29 19:53:59 2010 From: anu.mukh at gmail.com (anuradha mukherjee) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 19:53:59 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Arundhati roy has become a joke: Guha In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Entirely possible in Kolkata :) On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 7:38 PM, V Ramaswamy wrote: > Talking about rickshaw-wallahs ... in early 2005, Gunter Grass was in > Kolkata, invited by the Goethe Institut / Max Mueller Bhavan. One of the > programmes of his visit was a launch cruise on the Hooghly, stopping at > Serampore, and visiting the Serampore College. Cycle-rickshaws had to be > taken from the river-jetty at Serampore to the college. The puller of the > rickshaw which Grass took, asked if this was'nt Gunter Grass. He said he had > seen his picture and read about him in the newspaper. > > Best > > VR > From rama.sangye at gmail.com Fri Oct 29 19:59:09 2010 From: rama.sangye at gmail.com (V Ramaswamy) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 19:59:09 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Arundhati roy has become a joke: Guha In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: no it was not Kolkata, it was Serampur. They are not the same at all. It may not have ever happened in Kolkata. The "city of joy" apellation, similarly, is not Kolkata, Anandanagar was supposed to be a bsti in Pilkhana, Howrah, which is not Kolkata. From indersalim at gmail.com Fri Oct 29 23:07:21 2010 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 23:07:21 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Arundhati roy has become a joke: Guha In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: “We are worlds apart, our politics, our arguments. I’m inclined to put as great a distance as possible between the Guhas of the world and myself.” This what Roy, said, if one goes by the article posted by Mr. ARK So what is the fuss, it is Gua ji himself who is crossing lines, mixing the faculty of history with activism. he is doing is at his own peril. . "Then > followed her opposition to Pokhran II. At that point, Guha in a piece titled > ‘Arun Shourie of the Left’ reading comments like this, my suggestion to myself is that i should not take Gua ji seriously. Paradoxically, he seeing a genius in Gandhi, but would Gandhi support Dams and Nuclear test. I saw his theatrical gestures in front of Barkha Dutt, ( his latest company ). so what to say. however, there are some good quotes “Gandhi and Nehru’s genius to obscure that wound, to overcome it and not make India a Hindu Pakistan.” much to disappointment of Patal lovers. Well, i was actually a little late when i switched on TV. to see his interview with our Genius Barkha Dutt ji on NDTV. . Gua said that in absence of MA Jinnah, both Gandhi and Nehru would not have pursued ' Secularism' in Congress politics, vigorously those days. So, the indirect contribution of Jinnah in the making of India is immense, So, if one goes by this Gua logic, how is A.Roy a joke? . Isnt she pushing, single handedly the Indian state to look around their shoulders and see the mountain of injustices piling up in every sector. Thanks Mr. ARK for posting this with love is On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 9:39 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > Arundhati roy has become a joke: Guha*Link* - > http://www.bangaloremirror.com/article/1/201010292010102903332299368035e3f/Arundhati-roy-has-become-a-joke-Guha.html > > Bangalore Mirror > > Nine years after the Booker winner snubbed him, eminent historian > Ramachandra Guha makes the most of the opportunity to get even with her; > says she’s a publicity fiend. > > Almost a decade after an intellectual controversy of V S Naipaul-Paul > Theroux proportions, Ramachandra Guha claims that his stand against > Arundhati Roy has been vindicated. > > “She’s crazy. Arundhati Roy has become a joke, a publicity fiend,” Guha told > Bangalore Mirror. “She hops from cause to cause, and just look at the > company she’s keeping ... the likes of Syed Ali Shah Geelani, an ultimate > bigot who wants to keep women in purdah and bring in an Islamic theocracy.” > > The central government is contemplating slapping sedition charges on Roy for > saying that Kashmir is not an integral part of India, but Guha believes that > far more basic issues are involved. There is a reason, Guha says, why as a > historian he doesn’t want to get too involved in Kashmir, the Maoist > insurgency or, for that matter, even conservation movements. Apart from the > obvious hubris of believing that an outsider can ‘speak for’ a community or > a victim, Guha thinks it is far more challenging and nuanced from an > intellectual standpoint to ‘listen to’ or ‘speak to’ victims as opposed to > ‘speak for’ them. > > Casting himself firmly on the side of traditional historiography as against > postmodern ones, that celebrate dissent and flux for their own sake, Guha > agreed with Edward Said’s notion that scholarship has to always oppose the > guild mentality that unquestioningly privileges notions like ‘country’, > ‘citizen’, ‘community’ and the like above everything else. But it is also > the scholar’s task, Guha asserts, to discern when an attack on these notions > are warranted and when not. The current ‘seditious’ charges on Kashmir, > emanating from certain quarters, in his view, certainly aren’t. > > The highly acrimonious spat between the two writers started after Roy, > basking in her Booker fame, became a zealot for the anti-big dam cause. Then > followed her opposition to Pokhran II. At that point, Guha in a piece titled > ‘Arun Shourie of the Left’ wrote about how celebrity endorsements of social > or political protest movements were fraught with danger because sooner than > later the celebrity would replace the cause but he offered a seeming olive > branch by saying that Roy and he were ‘objectively’ on the same side. > > Roy, in her riposte in the form of an exhaustive interview to a national > fortnightly magazine in Jan 2001, was to dismiss this in no uncertain terms, > criticising Guha’s “suspect politics and slapdash scholarship” and > concluding that, “We are worlds apart, our politics, our arguments. I’m > inclined to put as great a distance as possible between the Guhas of the > world and myself.” > > Later Guha explained to an interviewer: “There was the worry of someone long > involved with the environmental debate that the simplifications and > exaggerations of Roy would tend to polarize issues and make meaningful > environmental reform that much more difficult ...” > > Guha, who is busy with the launch of his latest book Makers of Modern India > - “a kind of bridge” between his magisterial India After Gandhi - which was > voted by the Economist and Wall Street Journal as the best book of the year > in 2007, and the two-volume biography of Mahatma Gandhi he’s working on - > said that “India has this habit of continuously surprising us.” Often in a > not-so-good way. > > Talking of the three interlocutors for Kashmir, who got the job “just > because they are close to the dynasty in Delhi”, he said the fact that the > Indian state was not just violent or callous but so incompetent too came as > a surprise. “The one Muslim in the team has been appointed for no other > reason than his surname. The other two don’t even speak Urdu,” he said. “Why > couldn’t they have appointed people who would have commanded respect from > both sides, people who could act as genuine go-betweens. Right away I can > name two - Rajmohan Gandhi and Swami Agnivesh.” > > In India After Gandhi, Guha claimed that Indian democracy was phifty-phifty, > with an efficient ‘hardware’ but also with recurring ‘software’ problems. > His implicit argument in that book, as well as in Makers of Modern India, is > that despite troubled times, or perhaps especially in troubled times, it > becomes necessary to harp on the strengths of Indian democracy. > > He explained that India was an “unnatural nation”, in that it defied many > norms, particularly the one where nation states are founded on a ‘wound’. > India had Partition, as horrible and near-fatal a ‘wound’ as possible but it > was “Gandhi and Nehru’s genius to obscure that wound, to overcome it and not > make India a Hindu Pakistan.” > > Denying that the Kashmir problem and other mutinies plaguing India were a > result of our founding fathers’ refusal to confront the ‘wound’ squarely, he > said that it was presumptuous to ponder if Sardar Patel would have handled > India’s post-Independence destiny differently from Nehru. “We can always ask > ‘what if’. But there has to be plausibility also. Patel was a great man, but > Nehru was always, always Gandhi’s chosen successor,” he said. “Moreover, > Patel was someone who never appealed to women, south Indians and Muslims > which would have made him a suspect ‘national’ leader. A more interesting > ‘what if’ would be Subash Chandra Bose - what with the man’s charisma, his > visions, his whole unpredictability.” > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From sonia.jabbar at gmail.com Fri Oct 29 23:21:02 2010 From: sonia.jabbar at gmail.com (SJabbar) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 23:21:02 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Arundhati roy has become a joke: Guha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Inder, from what have you construed that Ram Guha supported Pokhran II? On 29/10/10 11:07 PM, "Inder Salim" wrote: > ³We are worlds apart, our politics, our arguments. I¹m inclined to put as > great a distance as possible between the Guhas of the world and myself.² This > what Roy, said, if one goes by the article posted by Mr. ARK So what is the > fuss, it is Gua ji himself who is crossing lines, mixing the faculty of > history with activism. he is doing is at his own peril. . "Then > followed > her opposition to Pokhran II. At that point, Guha in a piece titled > ŒArun > Shourie of the Left¹ reading comments like this, my suggestion to myself is > that i should not take Gua ji seriously. Paradoxically, he seeing a genius in > Gandhi, but would Gandhi support Dams and Nuclear test. I saw his theatrical > gestures in front of Barkha Dutt, ( his latest company ). so what to > say. however, there are some good quotes ³Gandhi and Nehru¹s genius > to obscure that wound, to overcome it and not make India a Hindu Pakistan.² > much to disappointment of Patal lovers. Well, i was actually a little late > when i switched on TV. to see his interview with our Genius Barkha Dutt ji on > NDTV. . Gua said that in absence of MA Jinnah, both Gandhi and Nehru would not > have pursued ' Secularism' in Congress politics, vigorously those days. So, > the indirect contribution of Jinnah in the making of India is immense, So, if > one goes by this Gua logic, how is A.Roy a joke? . Isnt she pushing, single > handedly the Indian state to look around their shoulders and see the mountain > of injustices piling up in every sector. Thanks Mr. ARK for posting > this with love is On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 9:39 AM, Aditya Raj > Kaul wrote: > Arundhati roy has become a joke: > Guha*Link* - > > http://www.bangaloremirror.com/article/1/201010292010102903332299368035e3f/Aru > ndhati-roy-has-become-a-joke-Guha.html > > Bangalore Mirror > > Nine years > after the Booker winner snubbed him, eminent historian > Ramachandra Guha > makes the most of the opportunity to get even with her; > says she¹s a > publicity fiend. > > Almost a decade after an intellectual controversy of V S > Naipaul-Paul > Theroux proportions, Ramachandra Guha claims that his stand > against > Arundhati Roy has been vindicated. > > ³She¹s crazy. Arundhati Roy > has become a joke, a publicity fiend,² Guha told > Bangalore Mirror. ³She hops > from cause to cause, and just look at the > company she¹s keeping ... the > likes of Syed Ali Shah Geelani, an ultimate > bigot who wants to keep women in > purdah and bring in an Islamic theocracy.² > > The central government is > contemplating slapping sedition charges on Roy for > saying that Kashmir is > not an integral part of India, but Guha believes that > far more basic issues > are involved. There is a reason, Guha says, why as a > historian he doesn¹t > want to get too involved in Kashmir, the Maoist > insurgency or, for that > matter, even conservation movements. Apart from the > obvious hubris of > believing that an outsider can Œspeak for¹ a community or > a victim, Guha > thinks it is far more challenging and nuanced from an > intellectual > standpoint to Œlisten to¹ or Œspeak to¹ victims as opposed to > Œspeak for¹ > them. > > Casting himself firmly on the side of traditional historiography as > against > postmodern ones, that celebrate dissent and flux for their own sake, > Guha > agreed with Edward Said¹s notion that scholarship has to always oppose > the > guild mentality that unquestioningly privileges notions like > Œcountry¹, > Œcitizen¹, Œcommunity¹ and the like above everything else. But it > is also > the scholar¹s task, Guha asserts, to discern when an attack on these > notions > are warranted and when not. The current Œseditious¹ charges on > Kashmir, > emanating from certain quarters, in his view, certainly aren¹t. > > > The highly acrimonious spat between the two writers started after Roy, > > basking in her Booker fame, became a zealot for the anti-big dam cause. Then > > followed her opposition to Pokhran II. At that point, Guha in a piece titled > > ŒArun Shourie of the Left¹ wrote about how celebrity endorsements of social > > or political protest movements were fraught with danger because sooner than > > later the celebrity would replace the cause but he offered a seeming olive > > branch by saying that Roy and he were Œobjectively¹ on the same side. > > Roy, > in her riposte in the form of an exhaustive interview to a national > > fortnightly magazine in Jan 2001, was to dismiss this in no uncertain terms, > > criticising Guha¹s ³suspect politics and slapdash scholarship² and > > concluding that, ³We are worlds apart, our politics, our arguments. I¹m > > inclined to put as great a distance as possible between the Guhas of the > > world and myself.² > > Later Guha explained to an interviewer: ³There was the > worry of someone long > involved with the environmental debate that the > simplifications and > exaggerations of Roy would tend to polarize issues and > make meaningful > environmental reform that much more difficult ...² > > Guha, > who is busy with the launch of his latest book Makers of Modern India > - ³a > kind of bridge² between his magisterial India After Gandhi - which was > voted > by the Economist and Wall Street Journal as the best book of the year > in > 2007, and the two-volume biography of Mahatma Gandhi he¹s working on - > said > that ³India has this habit of continuously surprising us.² Often in a > > not-so-good way. > > Talking of the three interlocutors for Kashmir, who got > the job ³just > because they are close to the dynasty in Delhi², he said the > fact that the > Indian state was not just violent or callous but so > incompetent too came as > a surprise. ³The one Muslim in the team has been > appointed for no other > reason than his surname. The other two don¹t even > speak Urdu,² he said. ³Why > couldn¹t they have appointed people who would > have commanded respect from > both sides, people who could act as genuine > go-betweens. Right away I can > name two - Rajmohan Gandhi and Swami > Agnivesh.² > > In India After Gandhi, Guha claimed that Indian democracy was > phifty-phifty, > with an efficient Œhardware¹ but also with recurring > Œsoftware¹ problems. > His implicit argument in that book, as well as in > Makers of Modern India, is > that despite troubled times, or perhaps > especially in troubled times, it > becomes necessary to harp on the strengths > of Indian democracy. > > He explained that India was an ³unnatural nation², in > that it defied many > norms, particularly the one where nation states are > founded on a Œwound¹. > India had Partition, as horrible and near-fatal a > Œwound¹ as possible but it > was ³Gandhi and Nehru¹s genius to obscure that > wound, to overcome it and not > make India a Hindu Pakistan.² > > Denying that > the Kashmir problem and other mutinies plaguing India were a > result of our > founding fathers¹ refusal to confront the Œwound¹ squarely, he > said that it > was presumptuous to ponder if Sardar Patel would have handled > India¹s > post-Independence destiny differently from Nehru. ³We can always ask > Œwhat > if¹. But there has to be plausibility also. Patel was a great man, but > Nehru > was always, always Gandhi¹s chosen successor,² he said. ³Moreover, > Patel was > someone who never appealed to women, south Indians and Muslims > which would > have made him a suspect Œnational¹ leader. A more interesting > Œwhat if¹ > would be Subash Chandra Bose - what with the man¹s charisma, his > visions, > his whole unpredictability.² > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & > Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- > http://indersalim.livejournal.com _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & > Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From taraprakash at gmail.com Sat Oct 30 00:24:43 2010 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 14:54:43 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Arundhati roy has become a joke: Guha References: Message-ID: <41650DEB837F495F9BBCE106E248AA05@tara> I am not sure if you took Guha seriously but I used to be a big fan of Roy. But after she shared stage with SASG, I won't be able to take her seriously, not even if she wins a Nobel. I am of course referring to Inder's suggestion that people will listen to her after she wins a Nobel prize. Probably she is aiming for it, since you made that suggestion. The committee doesn't many candidates left for Nobel peace prize. that specially seems true after they awarded Mr. Obama Nobel for peace last year. When I read Inder's email suggesting that Nobel, I was thinking of a form of poetry once popular in Italy, called Stornelli. The first line of the tripplet contains name of a flower. Like this: Flower of Roy Nobel is the goal Kashmir is a ploy. Flower of peace As it declines The chances increase. She's not a joke If she keeps it up She won't go broke. The suggestion is not that she is getting paid for her SASG posturing, I neither have means to prove nor ways to disprove those suggestions. But if you remain in limelight, your books are more likely to sell, you are not as forgotten as Kiran Desai or Mahashweta Debi. Both as I understand will be with Roy on the Kashmir issue but about SASG ????? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Inder Salim" To: "reader-list" Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 1:37 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Arundhati roy has become a joke: Guha > “We are worlds apart, our politics, our arguments. I’m > inclined to put as great a distance as possible between the Guhas of the > world and myself.” > > This what Roy, said, if one goes by the article posted by Mr. ARK > So what is the fuss, it is Gua ji himself who is crossing lines, > mixing the faculty of history with activism. he is doing is at his own > peril. > > . "Then > followed her opposition to Pokhran II. At that point, Guha > in a piece titled >> ‘Arun Shourie of the Left’ reading comments like this, my suggestion to >> myself is that i should not take Gua ji seriously. Paradoxically, he >> seeing a genius in Gandhi, but would Gandhi support Dams and Nuclear >> test. I saw his theatrical gestures in front of Barkha Dutt, ( his latest >> company ). so what to say. > > however, there are some good quotes “Gandhi and Nehru’s genius to > obscure that wound, to overcome it and not make India a Hindu > Pakistan.” much to disappointment of Patal lovers. > > Well, i was actually a little late when i switched on TV. to see his > interview with our Genius Barkha Dutt ji on NDTV. . Gua said that in > absence of MA Jinnah, both Gandhi and Nehru would not have pursued ' > Secularism' in Congress politics, vigorously those days. So, the > indirect contribution of Jinnah in the making of India is immense, > > So, if one goes by this Gua logic, how is A.Roy a joke? . Isnt she > pushing, single handedly the Indian state to look around their > shoulders and see the mountain of injustices piling up in every > sector. > > Thanks Mr. ARK for posting this > > with love > is > > > > On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 9:39 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul > wrote: >> Arundhati roy has become a joke: Guha*Link* - >> http://www.bangaloremirror.com/article/1/201010292010102903332299368035e3f/Arundhati-roy-has-become-a-joke-Guha.html >> >> Bangalore Mirror >> >> Nine years after the Booker winner snubbed him, eminent historian >> Ramachandra Guha makes the most of the opportunity to get even with her; >> says she’s a publicity fiend. >> >> Almost a decade after an intellectual controversy of V S Naipaul-Paul >> Theroux proportions, Ramachandra Guha claims that his stand against >> Arundhati Roy has been vindicated. >> >> “She’s crazy. Arundhati Roy has become a joke, a publicity fiend,” Guha >> told >> Bangalore Mirror. “She hops from cause to cause, and just look at the >> company she’s keeping ... the likes of Syed Ali Shah Geelani, an ultimate >> bigot who wants to keep women in purdah and bring in an Islamic >> theocracy.” >> >> The central government is contemplating slapping sedition charges on Roy >> for >> saying that Kashmir is not an integral part of India, but Guha believes >> that >> far more basic issues are involved. There is a reason, Guha says, why as >> a >> historian he doesn’t want to get too involved in Kashmir, the Maoist >> insurgency or, for that matter, even conservation movements. Apart from >> the >> obvious hubris of believing that an outsider can ‘speak for’ a community >> or >> a victim, Guha thinks it is far more challenging and nuanced from an >> intellectual standpoint to ‘listen to’ or ‘speak to’ victims as opposed >> to >> ‘speak for’ them. >> >> Casting himself firmly on the side of traditional historiography as >> against >> postmodern ones, that celebrate dissent and flux for their own sake, Guha >> agreed with Edward Said’s notion that scholarship has to always oppose >> the >> guild mentality that unquestioningly privileges notions like ‘country’, >> ‘citizen’, ‘community’ and the like above everything else. But it is also >> the scholar’s task, Guha asserts, to discern when an attack on these >> notions >> are warranted and when not. The current ‘seditious’ charges on Kashmir, >> emanating from certain quarters, in his view, certainly aren’t. >> >> The highly acrimonious spat between the two writers started after Roy, >> basking in her Booker fame, became a zealot for the anti-big dam cause. >> Then >> followed her opposition to Pokhran II. At that point, Guha in a piece >> titled >> ‘Arun Shourie of the Left’ wrote about how celebrity endorsements of >> social >> or political protest movements were fraught with danger because sooner >> than >> later the celebrity would replace the cause but he offered a seeming >> olive >> branch by saying that Roy and he were ‘objectively’ on the same side. >> >> Roy, in her riposte in the form of an exhaustive interview to a national >> fortnightly magazine in Jan 2001, was to dismiss this in no uncertain >> terms, >> criticising Guha’s “suspect politics and slapdash scholarship” and >> concluding that, “We are worlds apart, our politics, our arguments. I’m >> inclined to put as great a distance as possible between the Guhas of the >> world and myself.” >> >> Later Guha explained to an interviewer: “There was the worry of someone >> long >> involved with the environmental debate that the simplifications and >> exaggerations of Roy would tend to polarize issues and make meaningful >> environmental reform that much more difficult ...” >> >> Guha, who is busy with the launch of his latest book Makers of Modern >> India >> - “a kind of bridge” between his magisterial India After Gandhi - which >> was >> voted by the Economist and Wall Street Journal as the best book of the >> year >> in 2007, and the two-volume biography of Mahatma Gandhi he’s working on - >> said that “India has this habit of continuously surprising us.” Often in >> a >> not-so-good way. >> >> Talking of the three interlocutors for Kashmir, who got the job “just >> because they are close to the dynasty in Delhi”, he said the fact that >> the >> Indian state was not just violent or callous but so incompetent too came >> as >> a surprise. “The one Muslim in the team has been appointed for no other >> reason than his surname. The other two don’t even speak Urdu,” he said. >> “Why >> couldn’t they have appointed people who would have commanded respect from >> both sides, people who could act as genuine go-betweens. Right away I can >> name two - Rajmohan Gandhi and Swami Agnivesh.” >> >> In India After Gandhi, Guha claimed that Indian democracy was >> phifty-phifty, >> with an efficient ‘hardware’ but also with recurring ‘software’ problems. >> His implicit argument in that book, as well as in Makers of Modern India, >> is >> that despite troubled times, or perhaps especially in troubled times, it >> becomes necessary to harp on the strengths of Indian democracy. >> >> He explained that India was an “unnatural nation”, in that it defied many >> norms, particularly the one where nation states are founded on a ‘wound’. >> India had Partition, as horrible and near-fatal a ‘wound’ as possible but >> it >> was “Gandhi and Nehru’s genius to obscure that wound, to overcome it and >> not >> make India a Hindu Pakistan.” >> >> Denying that the Kashmir problem and other mutinies plaguing India were a >> result of our founding fathers’ refusal to confront the ‘wound’ squarely, >> he >> said that it was presumptuous to ponder if Sardar Patel would have >> handled >> India’s post-Independence destiny differently from Nehru. “We can always >> ask >> ‘what if’. But there has to be plausibility also. Patel was a great man, >> but >> Nehru was always, always Gandhi’s chosen successor,” he said. “Moreover, >> Patel was someone who never appealed to women, south Indians and Muslims >> which would have made him a suspect ‘national’ leader. A more interesting >> ‘what if’ would be Subash Chandra Bose - what with the man’s charisma, >> his >> visions, his whole unpredictability.” >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From anu.mukh at gmail.com Sat Oct 30 00:28:16 2010 From: anu.mukh at gmail.com (anuradha mukherjee) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 00:28:16 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Arundhati roy has become a joke: Guha In-Reply-To: <41650DEB837F495F9BBCE106E248AA05@tara> References: <41650DEB837F495F9BBCE106E248AA05@tara> Message-ID: Good we are discussing something other than Kashmir in this string, even if tangentially. Roy at least alleviated the monotony. On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 12:24 AM, TaraPrakash wrote: > I am not sure if you took Guha seriously but I used to be a big fan of Roy. > But after she shared stage with SASG, I won't be able to take her seriously, > not even if she wins a Nobel. I am of course referring to Inder's suggestion > that people will listen to her after she wins a Nobel prize. Probably she is > aiming for it, since you made that suggestion. The committee doesn't many > candidates left for Nobel peace prize. that specially seems true after they > awarded Mr. Obama Nobel for peace last year. > > When I read Inder's email suggesting that Nobel, I was thinking of a form > of poetry once popular in Italy, called Stornelli. The first line of the > tripplet contains name of a flower. Like this: > > Flower of Roy > Nobel is the goal > Kashmir is a ploy. > > Flower of peace > As it declines > The chances increase. > > She's not a joke > If she keeps it up > She won't go broke. > > > The suggestion is not that she is getting paid for her SASG posturing, I > neither have means to prove nor ways to disprove those suggestions. But if > you remain in limelight, your books are more likely to sell, you are not as > forgotten as Kiran Desai or Mahashweta Debi. Both as I understand will be > with Roy on the Kashmir issue but about SASG ????? > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Inder Salim" > To: "reader-list" > Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 1:37 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Arundhati roy has become a joke: Guha > > > > “We are worlds apart, our politics, our arguments. I’m >> inclined to put as great a distance as possible between the Guhas of the >> world and myself.” >> >> This what Roy, said, if one goes by the article posted by Mr. ARK >> So what is the fuss, it is Gua ji himself who is crossing lines, >> mixing the faculty of history with activism. he is doing is at his own >> peril. >> >> . "Then > followed her opposition to Pokhran II. At that point, Guha >> in a piece titled >> >>> ‘Arun Shourie of the Left’ reading comments like this, my suggestion to >>> myself is that i should not take Gua ji seriously. Paradoxically, he seeing >>> a genius in Gandhi, but would Gandhi support Dams and Nuclear test. I saw >>> his theatrical gestures in front of Barkha Dutt, ( his latest company ). so >>> what to say. >>> >> >> however, there are some good quotes “Gandhi and Nehru’s genius to >> obscure that wound, to overcome it and not make India a Hindu >> Pakistan.” much to disappointment of Patal lovers. >> >> Well, i was actually a little late when i switched on TV. to see his >> interview with our Genius Barkha Dutt ji on NDTV. . Gua said that in >> absence of MA Jinnah, both Gandhi and Nehru would not have pursued ' >> Secularism' in Congress politics, vigorously those days. So, the >> indirect contribution of Jinnah in the making of India is immense, >> >> So, if one goes by this Gua logic, how is A.Roy a joke? . Isnt she >> pushing, single handedly the Indian state to look around their >> shoulders and see the mountain of injustices piling up in every >> sector. >> >> Thanks Mr. ARK for posting this >> >> with love >> is >> >> >> >> On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 9:39 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul >> wrote: >> >>> Arundhati roy has become a joke: Guha*Link* - >>> >>> http://www.bangaloremirror.com/article/1/201010292010102903332299368035e3f/Arundhati-roy-has-become-a-joke-Guha.html >>> >>> Bangalore Mirror >>> >>> Nine years after the Booker winner snubbed him, eminent historian >>> Ramachandra Guha makes the most of the opportunity to get even with her; >>> says she’s a publicity fiend. >>> >>> Almost a decade after an intellectual controversy of V S Naipaul-Paul >>> Theroux proportions, Ramachandra Guha claims that his stand against >>> Arundhati Roy has been vindicated. >>> >>> “She’s crazy. Arundhati Roy has become a joke, a publicity fiend,” Guha >>> told >>> Bangalore Mirror. “She hops from cause to cause, and just look at the >>> company she’s keeping ... the likes of Syed Ali Shah Geelani, an ultimate >>> bigot who wants to keep women in purdah and bring in an Islamic >>> theocracy.” >>> >>> The central government is contemplating slapping sedition charges on Roy >>> for >>> saying that Kashmir is not an integral part of India, but Guha believes >>> that >>> far more basic issues are involved. There is a reason, Guha says, why as >>> a >>> historian he doesn’t want to get too involved in Kashmir, the Maoist >>> insurgency or, for that matter, even conservation movements. Apart from >>> the >>> obvious hubris of believing that an outsider can ‘speak for’ a community >>> or >>> a victim, Guha thinks it is far more challenging and nuanced from an >>> intellectual standpoint to ‘listen to’ or ‘speak to’ victims as opposed >>> to >>> ‘speak for’ them. >>> >>> Casting himself firmly on the side of traditional historiography as >>> against >>> postmodern ones, that celebrate dissent and flux for their own sake, Guha >>> agreed with Edward Said’s notion that scholarship has to always oppose >>> the >>> guild mentality that unquestioningly privileges notions like ‘country’, >>> ‘citizen’, ‘community’ and the like above everything else. But it is also >>> the scholar’s task, Guha asserts, to discern when an attack on these >>> notions >>> are warranted and when not. The current ‘seditious’ charges on Kashmir, >>> emanating from certain quarters, in his view, certainly aren’t. >>> >>> The highly acrimonious spat between the two writers started after Roy, >>> basking in her Booker fame, became a zealot for the anti-big dam cause. >>> Then >>> followed her opposition to Pokhran II. At that point, Guha in a piece >>> titled >>> ‘Arun Shourie of the Left’ wrote about how celebrity endorsements of >>> social >>> or political protest movements were fraught with danger because sooner >>> than >>> later the celebrity would replace the cause but he offered a seeming >>> olive >>> branch by saying that Roy and he were ‘objectively’ on the same side. >>> >>> Roy, in her riposte in the form of an exhaustive interview to a national >>> fortnightly magazine in Jan 2001, was to dismiss this in no uncertain >>> terms, >>> criticising Guha’s “suspect politics and slapdash scholarship” and >>> concluding that, “We are worlds apart, our politics, our arguments. I’m >>> inclined to put as great a distance as possible between the Guhas of the >>> world and myself.” >>> >>> Later Guha explained to an interviewer: “There was the worry of someone >>> long >>> involved with the environmental debate that the simplifications and >>> exaggerations of Roy would tend to polarize issues and make meaningful >>> environmental reform that much more difficult ...” >>> >>> Guha, who is busy with the launch of his latest book Makers of Modern >>> India >>> - “a kind of bridge” between his magisterial India After Gandhi - which >>> was >>> voted by the Economist and Wall Street Journal as the best book of the >>> year >>> in 2007, and the two-volume biography of Mahatma Gandhi he’s working on - >>> said that “India has this habit of continuously surprising us.” Often in >>> a >>> not-so-good way. >>> >>> Talking of the three interlocutors for Kashmir, who got the job “just >>> because they are close to the dynasty in Delhi”, he said the fact that >>> the >>> Indian state was not just violent or callous but so incompetent too came >>> as >>> a surprise. “The one Muslim in the team has been appointed for no other >>> reason than his surname. The other two don’t even speak Urdu,” he said. >>> “Why >>> couldn’t they have appointed people who would have commanded respect from >>> both sides, people who could act as genuine go-betweens. Right away I can >>> name two - Rajmohan Gandhi and Swami Agnivesh.” >>> >>> In India After Gandhi, Guha claimed that Indian democracy was >>> phifty-phifty, >>> with an efficient ‘hardware’ but also with recurring ‘software’ problems. >>> His implicit argument in that book, as well as in Makers of Modern India, >>> is >>> that despite troubled times, or perhaps especially in troubled times, it >>> becomes necessary to harp on the strengths of Indian democracy. >>> >>> He explained that India was an “unnatural nation”, in that it defied many >>> norms, particularly the one where nation states are founded on a ‘wound’. >>> India had Partition, as horrible and near-fatal a ‘wound’ as possible but >>> it >>> was “Gandhi and Nehru’s genius to obscure that wound, to overcome it and >>> not >>> make India a Hindu Pakistan.” >>> >>> Denying that the Kashmir problem and other mutinies plaguing India were a >>> result of our founding fathers’ refusal to confront the ‘wound’ squarely, >>> he >>> said that it was presumptuous to ponder if Sardar Patel would have >>> handled >>> India’s post-Independence destiny differently from Nehru. “We can always >>> ask >>> ‘what if’. But there has to be plausibility also. Patel was a great man, >>> but >>> Nehru was always, always Gandhi’s chosen successor,” he said. “Moreover, >>> Patel was someone who never appealed to women, south Indians and Muslims >>> which would have made him a suspect ‘national’ leader. A more interesting >>> ‘what if’ would be Subash Chandra Bose - what with the man’s charisma, >>> his >>> visions, his whole unpredictability.” >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From pheeta.ram at gmail.com Sat Oct 30 05:46:29 2010 From: pheeta.ram at gmail.com (Pheeta Ram) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 05:46:29 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] WHO IS AFRAID OF ARUNDHATI ROY? Message-ID: Some people on this list are afraid of 'Arundhati Roy - the joke' ( BTW, a joke is not a joke) because they are afraid of laughing for obvious reasons: a) they are afraid because some other people simply love her and are not afraid to confess that b) they are afraid because she used to visit some upper-class gym in skimpy clothing c) they are afraid because she married twice and is finally officially single d) they are afraid because she supports maoists and for them maoist is a term of abuse e) they are afraid because she supports the Aazadi of Kashmiri people from the repressive Indian state f) they are afraid because she writes bewitchingly beautiful prose for subversive, anti-national purposes g) they are afraid because they think she is publicity hungry h) they are afraid because she is some day certainly going to win the Nobel Prize i) they are afraid because she is simply beautiful in those curly hair and that mellow childlike voice; and those mesmerizingly wondrous eyes which are not afraid to sing for you the serenades of freedom j) they are afraid because they cannot NOTREAD what she writes in a 32 page long essay after walking with the comrades in the jungles of Dantewada k) they are afraid because the Indian state is now terribly scared of putting her in jail for that shall certainly fetch her the Nobel Prize and win Kashmir the Aazadi l) they are afraid because she shared dais with SASG and made him realize that Kashmiris are not alone in their struggle and also that Kashmiris also need to know that there is a wider world surrounding them that is also struggling and that they need to acknowledge it and support it; and that the Kashmiris have the histories of India and Pakistan ( both collective and separate) before them to take strict lessons from, to fashion a nation-state that does justice to the sacrifices of the people who have fought, are fighting and shall continue fighting for Kashmir; and that all struggles against the tyrant are essentially connected m)they are afraid because she hops from one issue to another ( Narmada >>Maoists>>Kashmir>>which next?) n) they are afraid because she goes against their normative definitions of beauty and gender o) they are afraid because 'even a rickshawala' is praising her saying that she is a 'pseudo intellectual' (?) (Isn't it a pity that a rickshawala of such a potential is not on the sarai list?). p) they are afraid because the Indian media -the stooges of Indian state - don't know what to do with her (even supremely articulate ones from the media (like Karan Thapar) make an ass of themselves while interviewing her) q) they are afraid because she spits on their faces and is not wee bit apologetic about it because she knows that they deserve it and that its her duty to do that r) they are afraid because she is fast becoming a role model for the beautiful, well-connected upper-class convent educated women who are devouring her from cover to cover secretively like mills-and-boons even in their bathrooms ( so that their businessmen fathers and social butterfly mothers don't catch them reading her) and dreaming about being her in their fantasy worlds (one of them confessed to me) ( in this manner the phenomenon called Arundhati becomes a past-master in reverse engineering) s) they are afraid because she has made them realize that capitalism is like a deadly virus that shall one day surely eat itself away t) they are afraid because she thinks with a beautiful heart (hence a 'pseudo-intellectual') u) they are afraid because she converts "aesthetics of deferral" ( one scourge that afflicts most of the 'intellectuals' of todays world) into a beautiful "aestheto-ethics of arrival", no mean feat i should say v) they are afraid because they unconsciously compete with her and finding her a sure winner are afraid to take the challenge w) they are afraid because she challenges the very rationale of their being and becoming x) they are afraid because she happens to be a woman (like them) y) they are afraid because the Indian state has done a beautiful job in bringing them up on a steady diet of 'nationalist' propaganda through first beginning with NCERT textbooks in brainwashing saloons called 'Schools' ( the reason behind the popularity of Bollywood and Cricket) z) they are afraid because despite their manifest hate for her they have serious doubts that some where down there they love her too. ... BTW, who is afraid of what comes after Z? Jump the gun please. From parvaizbukhari at gmail.com Sat Oct 30 08:31:27 2010 From: parvaizbukhari at gmail.com (Parvaiz Bukhari) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 08:31:27 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] WHO IS AFRAID OF ARUNDHATI ROY? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Anxiously waiting for the fear to spread more so that more may survive Indian politicians, media and the court historians of the day... On 30 October 2010 05:46, Pheeta Ram wrote: > Some people on this list are afraid of 'Arundhati Roy - the joke' ( BTW, a > joke is not a joke) because they are afraid of laughing for obvious > reasons: > > a) they are afraid because some other people simply love her and are not > afraid to confess that > b) they are afraid because she used to visit some upper-class gym in skimpy > clothing > c) they are afraid because she married twice and is finally officially > single > d) they are afraid because she supports maoists and for them maoist is a > term of abuse > e) they are afraid because she supports the Aazadi of Kashmiri people from > the repressive Indian state > f) they are afraid because she writes bewitchingly beautiful prose for > subversive, anti-national purposes > g) they are afraid because they think she is publicity hungry > h) they are afraid because she is some day certainly going to win the Nobel > Prize > i) they are afraid because she is simply beautiful in those curly hair and > that mellow childlike voice; and those mesmerizingly wondrous eyes which > are > not afraid to sing for you the serenades of freedom > j) they are afraid because they cannot NOTREAD what she writes in a 32 page > long essay after walking with the comrades in the jungles of Dantewada > k) they are afraid because the Indian state is now terribly scared of > putting her in jail for that shall certainly fetch her the Nobel Prize and > win Kashmir the Aazadi > l) they are afraid because she shared dais with SASG and made him realize > that Kashmiris are not alone in their struggle and also that Kashmiris also > need to know that there is a wider world surrounding them that is also > struggling and that they need to acknowledge it and support it; and that > the > Kashmiris have the histories of India and Pakistan ( both collective and > separate) before them to take strict lessons from, to fashion a > nation-state > that does justice to the sacrifices of the people who have fought, are > fighting and shall continue fighting for Kashmir; and that all struggles > against the tyrant are essentially connected > m)they are afraid because she hops from one issue to another ( Narmada > >>Maoists>>Kashmir>>which next?) > n) they are afraid because she goes against their normative definitions of > beauty and gender > o) they are afraid because 'even a rickshawala' is praising her saying that > she is a 'pseudo intellectual' (?) (Isn't it a pity that a rickshawala of > such a potential is not on the sarai list?). > p) they are afraid because the Indian media -the stooges of Indian state - > don't know what to do with her (even supremely articulate ones from the > media (like Karan Thapar) make an ass of themselves while interviewing her) > q) they are afraid because she spits on their faces and is not wee bit > apologetic about it because she knows that they deserve it and that its her > duty to do that > r) they are afraid because she is fast becoming a role model for the > beautiful, well-connected upper-class convent educated women who are > devouring her from cover to cover secretively like mills-and-boons even in > their bathrooms ( so that their businessmen fathers and social butterfly > mothers don't catch them reading her) and dreaming about being her in their > fantasy worlds (one of them confessed to me) ( in this manner the > phenomenon > called Arundhati becomes a past-master in reverse engineering) > s) they are afraid because she has made them realize that capitalism is > like > a deadly virus that shall one day surely eat itself away > t) they are afraid because she thinks with a beautiful heart (hence a > 'pseudo-intellectual') > u) they are afraid because she converts "aesthetics of deferral" ( one > scourge that afflicts most of the 'intellectuals' of todays world) into a > beautiful "aestheto-ethics of arrival", no mean feat i should say > v) they are afraid because they unconsciously compete with her and finding > her a sure winner are afraid to take the challenge > w) they are afraid because she challenges the very rationale of their being > and becoming > x) they are afraid because she happens to be a woman (like them) > y) they are afraid because the Indian state has done a beautiful job in > bringing them up on a steady diet of 'nationalist' propaganda through first > beginning with NCERT textbooks in brainwashing saloons called 'Schools' ( > the reason behind the popularity of Bollywood and Cricket) > z) they are afraid because despite their manifest hate for her they have > serious doubts that some where down there they love her too. > ... > > BTW, who is afraid of what comes after Z? Jump the gun please. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From samvitr at gmail.com Sat Oct 30 09:19:51 2010 From: samvitr at gmail.com (Samvit) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 09:19:51 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] WHO IS AFRAID OF ARUNDHATI ROY? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Parvaiz, The fact of the matter is that Indian media does not parrot the language of the fanatics (either hindu or muslim) unlike the "Greater Kashmirs" of the Valley where the word Pandit is an anathema. Try and pick up any magazine or newspaper from the Valley and all they do it glorify separatism/terrorism/extremism. It seems they have become the new towers of capitalistic Kashmir where money is the opium of the "classes". Selling a newspaper is as good as selling a toothbrush. Indian judiciary, over the years has done a good (if not excellent) job and convicted people in all kinds of crimes. An example being the case against the former Gujarat Home Minister Amit Shah. In Kashmir not a single case against the Pandits has seen the light of the day. Bitta Karata is out in the open. Perhaps you should have written a piece about him. So ironical you talk about "surviving". Here, the opressor is trying to prove that he is the oppressed. People may write an epic of Gilgamish in Arundhati's honor but then it will be as slanderous as the courteisns who used to call Aurangzeb- "Oh, king of kings, oh pinnacle of the mercy........." -Samvit On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 8:31 AM, Parvaiz Bukhari wrote: > Anxiously waiting for the fear to spread more so that more may survive > Indian politicians, media and the court historians of the day... > > On 30 October 2010 05:46, Pheeta Ram wrote: > > > Some people on this list are afraid of 'Arundhati Roy - the joke' ( BTW, > a > > joke is not a joke) because they are afraid of laughing for obvious > > reasons: > > > > a) they are afraid because some other people simply love her and are not > > afraid to confess that > > b) they are afraid because she used to visit some upper-class gym in > skimpy > > clothing > > c) they are afraid because she married twice and is finally officially > > single > > d) they are afraid because she supports maoists and for them maoist is a > > term of abuse > > e) they are afraid because she supports the Aazadi of Kashmiri people > from > > the repressive Indian state > > f) they are afraid because she writes bewitchingly beautiful prose for > > subversive, anti-national purposes > > g) they are afraid because they think she is publicity hungry > > h) they are afraid because she is some day certainly going to win the > Nobel > > Prize > > i) they are afraid because she is simply beautiful in those curly hair > and > > that mellow childlike voice; and those mesmerizingly wondrous eyes which > > are > > not afraid to sing for you the serenades of freedom > > j) they are afraid because they cannot NOTREAD what she writes in a 32 > page > > long essay after walking with the comrades in the jungles of Dantewada > > k) they are afraid because the Indian state is now terribly scared of > > putting her in jail for that shall certainly fetch her the Nobel Prize > and > > win Kashmir the Aazadi > > l) they are afraid because she shared dais with SASG and made him realize > > that Kashmiris are not alone in their struggle and also that Kashmiris > also > > need to know that there is a wider world surrounding them that is also > > struggling and that they need to acknowledge it and support it; and that > > the > > Kashmiris have the histories of India and Pakistan ( both collective and > > separate) before them to take strict lessons from, to fashion a > > nation-state > > that does justice to the sacrifices of the people who have fought, are > > fighting and shall continue fighting for Kashmir; and that all struggles > > against the tyrant are essentially connected > > m)they are afraid because she hops from one issue to another ( Narmada > > >>Maoists>>Kashmir>>which next?) > > n) they are afraid because she goes against their normative definitions > of > > beauty and gender > > o) they are afraid because 'even a rickshawala' is praising her saying > that > > she is a 'pseudo intellectual' (?) (Isn't it a pity that a rickshawala of > > such a potential is not on the sarai list?). > > p) they are afraid because the Indian media -the stooges of Indian state > - > > don't know what to do with her (even supremely articulate ones from the > > media (like Karan Thapar) make an ass of themselves while interviewing > her) > > q) they are afraid because she spits on their faces and is not wee bit > > apologetic about it because she knows that they deserve it and that its > her > > duty to do that > > r) they are afraid because she is fast becoming a role model for the > > beautiful, well-connected upper-class convent educated women who are > > devouring her from cover to cover secretively like mills-and-boons even > in > > their bathrooms ( so that their businessmen fathers and social butterfly > > mothers don't catch them reading her) and dreaming about being her in > their > > fantasy worlds (one of them confessed to me) ( in this manner the > > phenomenon > > called Arundhati becomes a past-master in reverse engineering) > > s) they are afraid because she has made them realize that capitalism is > > like > > a deadly virus that shall one day surely eat itself away > > t) they are afraid because she thinks with a beautiful heart (hence a > > 'pseudo-intellectual') > > u) they are afraid because she converts "aesthetics of deferral" ( one > > scourge that afflicts most of the 'intellectuals' of todays world) into a > > beautiful "aestheto-ethics of arrival", no mean feat i should say > > v) they are afraid because they unconsciously compete with her and > finding > > her a sure winner are afraid to take the challenge > > w) they are afraid because she challenges the very rationale of their > being > > and becoming > > x) they are afraid because she happens to be a woman (like them) > > y) they are afraid because the Indian state has done a beautiful job in > > bringing them up on a steady diet of 'nationalist' propaganda through > first > > beginning with NCERT textbooks in brainwashing saloons called 'Schools' ( > > the reason behind the popularity of Bollywood and Cricket) > > z) they are afraid because despite their manifest hate for her they have > > serious doubts that some where down there they love her too. > > ... > > > > BTW, who is afraid of what comes after Z? Jump the gun please. > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- Samvit Rawal 9422037853 ----------------------------------------------------------- To err is human; to forgive, infrequent. - Franklin P. Adams From parvaizbukhari at gmail.com Sat Oct 30 09:32:37 2010 From: parvaizbukhari at gmail.com (Parvaiz Bukhari) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 09:32:37 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] WHO IS AFRAID OF ARUNDHATI ROY? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Samvit this is a big question you must ask ypourself....why has the indian judiciary failed to "perform" in Kashmir unlike elsewhere in the examples u give? Or, you are saying the judiciary is also run by the separatists? On 30 October 2010 09:19, Samvit wrote: > Parvaiz, > The fact of the matter is that Indian media does not parrot the language of > the fanatics (either hindu or muslim) unlike the "Greater Kashmirs" of the > Valley where the word Pandit is an anathema. Try and pick up any magazine or > newspaper from the Valley and all they do it glorify > separatism/terrorism/extremism. It seems they have become the new towers of > capitalistic Kashmir where money is the opium of the "classes". Selling a > newspaper is as good as selling a toothbrush. > Indian judiciary, over the years has done a good (if not excellent) job and > convicted people in all kinds of crimes. An example being the case against > the former Gujarat Home Minister Amit Shah. In Kashmir not a single case > against the Pandits has seen the light of the day. Bitta Karata is out in > the open. Perhaps you should have written a piece about him. So ironical you > talk about "surviving". > > Here, the opressor is trying to prove that he is the oppressed. > > People may write an epic of Gilgamish in Arundhati's honor but then it will > be as slanderous as the courteisns who used to call Aurangzeb- "Oh, king of > kings, oh pinnacle of the mercy........." > -Samvit > > > On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 8:31 AM, Parvaiz Bukhari > wrote: > >> Anxiously waiting for the fear to spread more so that more may survive >> Indian politicians, media and the court historians of the day... >> >> On 30 October 2010 05:46, Pheeta Ram wrote: >> >> > Some people on this list are afraid of 'Arundhati Roy - the joke' ( BTW, >> a >> > joke is not a joke) because they are afraid of laughing for obvious >> > reasons: >> > >> > a) they are afraid because some other people simply love her and are not >> > afraid to confess that >> > b) they are afraid because she used to visit some upper-class gym in >> skimpy >> > clothing >> > c) they are afraid because she married twice and is finally officially >> > single >> > d) they are afraid because she supports maoists and for them maoist is a >> > term of abuse >> > e) they are afraid because she supports the Aazadi of Kashmiri people >> from >> > the repressive Indian state >> > f) they are afraid because she writes bewitchingly beautiful prose for >> > subversive, anti-national purposes >> > g) they are afraid because they think she is publicity hungry >> > h) they are afraid because she is some day certainly going to win the >> Nobel >> > Prize >> > i) they are afraid because she is simply beautiful in those curly hair >> and >> > that mellow childlike voice; and those mesmerizingly wondrous eyes which >> > are >> > not afraid to sing for you the serenades of freedom >> > j) they are afraid because they cannot NOTREAD what she writes in a 32 >> page >> > long essay after walking with the comrades in the jungles of Dantewada >> > k) they are afraid because the Indian state is now terribly scared of >> > putting her in jail for that shall certainly fetch her the Nobel Prize >> and >> > win Kashmir the Aazadi >> > l) they are afraid because she shared dais with SASG and made him >> realize >> > that Kashmiris are not alone in their struggle and also that Kashmiris >> also >> > need to know that there is a wider world surrounding them that is also >> > struggling and that they need to acknowledge it and support it; and that >> > the >> > Kashmiris have the histories of India and Pakistan ( both collective and >> > separate) before them to take strict lessons from, to fashion a >> > nation-state >> > that does justice to the sacrifices of the people who have fought, are >> > fighting and shall continue fighting for Kashmir; and that all struggles >> > against the tyrant are essentially connected >> > m)they are afraid because she hops from one issue to another ( Narmada >> > >>Maoists>>Kashmir>>which next?) >> > n) they are afraid because she goes against their normative definitions >> of >> > beauty and gender >> > o) they are afraid because 'even a rickshawala' is praising her saying >> that >> > she is a 'pseudo intellectual' (?) (Isn't it a pity that a rickshawala >> of >> > such a potential is not on the sarai list?). >> > p) they are afraid because the Indian media -the stooges of Indian state >> - >> > don't know what to do with her (even supremely articulate ones from the >> > media (like Karan Thapar) make an ass of themselves while interviewing >> her) >> > q) they are afraid because she spits on their faces and is not wee bit >> > apologetic about it because she knows that they deserve it and that its >> her >> > duty to do that >> > r) they are afraid because she is fast becoming a role model for the >> > beautiful, well-connected upper-class convent educated women who are >> > devouring her from cover to cover secretively like mills-and-boons even >> in >> > their bathrooms ( so that their businessmen fathers and social butterfly >> > mothers don't catch them reading her) and dreaming about being her in >> their >> > fantasy worlds (one of them confessed to me) ( in this manner the >> > phenomenon >> > called Arundhati becomes a past-master in reverse engineering) >> > s) they are afraid because she has made them realize that capitalism is >> > like >> > a deadly virus that shall one day surely eat itself away >> > t) they are afraid because she thinks with a beautiful heart (hence a >> > 'pseudo-intellectual') >> > u) they are afraid because she converts "aesthetics of deferral" ( one >> > scourge that afflicts most of the 'intellectuals' of todays world) into >> a >> > beautiful "aestheto-ethics of arrival", no mean feat i should say >> > v) they are afraid because they unconsciously compete with her and >> finding >> > her a sure winner are afraid to take the challenge >> > w) they are afraid because she challenges the very rationale of their >> being >> > and becoming >> > x) they are afraid because she happens to be a woman (like them) >> > y) they are afraid because the Indian state has done a beautiful job in >> > bringing them up on a steady diet of 'nationalist' propaganda through >> first >> > beginning with NCERT textbooks in brainwashing saloons called 'Schools' >> ( >> > the reason behind the popularity of Bollywood and Cricket) >> > z) they are afraid because despite their manifest hate for her they have >> > serious doubts that some where down there they love her too. >> > ... >> > >> > BTW, who is afraid of what comes after Z? Jump the gun please. >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > > > -- > Samvit Rawal > 9422037853 > ----------------------------------------------------------- > To err is human; to forgive, infrequent. > - Franklin P. Adams > From sonia.jabbar at gmail.com Sat Oct 30 10:41:25 2010 From: sonia.jabbar at gmail.com (SJabbar) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 10:41:25 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] WHO IS AFRAID OF ARUNDHATI ROY? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Parvaiz, I don't understand your big question. Do you not make a distinction between the Kashmiri judiciary and the Indian judiciary, and between the IPC and the RPC? Please clarify. Sincerely, Sonia On 30/10/10 9:32 AM, "Parvaiz Bukhari" wrote: > Samvit this is a big question you must ask ypourself....why has the > indian judiciary failed to "perform" in Kashmir unlike elsewhere in the > examples u give? Or, you are saying the judiciary is also run by the > separatists? On 30 October 2010 09:19, Samvit wrote: > > Parvaiz, > The fact of the matter is that Indian media does not parrot the > language of > the fanatics (either hindu or muslim) unlike the "Greater > Kashmirs" of the > Valley where the word Pandit is an anathema. Try and pick > up any magazine or > newspaper from the Valley and all they do it glorify > > separatism/terrorism/extremism. It seems they have become the new towers of > > capitalistic Kashmir where money is the opium of the "classes". Selling a > > newspaper is as good as selling a toothbrush. > Indian judiciary, over the > years has done a good (if not excellent) job and > convicted people in all > kinds of crimes. An example being the case against > the former Gujarat Home > Minister Amit Shah. In Kashmir not a single case > against the Pandits has > seen the light of the day. Bitta Karata is out in > the open. Perhaps you > should have written a piece about him. So ironical you > talk about > "surviving". > > Here, the opressor is trying to prove that he is the > oppressed. > > People may write an epic of Gilgamish in Arundhati's honor but > then it will > be as slanderous as the courteisns who used to call Aurangzeb- > "Oh, king of > kings, oh pinnacle of the mercy........." > -Samvit > > > On > Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 8:31 AM, Parvaiz Bukhari > > wrote: > >> Anxiously waiting for the fear to spread more so that more may > survive >> Indian politicians, media and the court historians of the > day... >> >> On 30 October 2010 05:46, Pheeta Ram > wrote: >> >> > Some people on this list are afraid of 'Arundhati Roy - the > joke' ( BTW, >> a >> > joke is not a joke) because they are afraid of laughing > for obvious >> > reasons: >> > >> > a) they are afraid because some other > people simply love her and are not >> > afraid to confess that >> > b) they > are afraid because she used to visit some upper-class gym in >> skimpy >> > > clothing >> > c) they are afraid because she married twice and is finally > officially >> > single >> > d) they are afraid because she supports maoists > and for them maoist is a >> > term of abuse >> > e) they are afraid because > she supports the Aazadi of Kashmiri people >> from >> > the repressive Indian > state >> > f) they are afraid because she writes bewitchingly beautiful prose > for >> > subversive, anti-national purposes >> > g) they are afraid because > they think she is publicity hungry >> > h) they are afraid because she is some > day certainly going to win the >> Nobel >> > Prize >> > i) they are afraid > because she is simply beautiful in those curly hair >> and >> > that mellow > childlike voice; and those mesmerizingly wondrous eyes which >> > are >> > not > afraid to sing for you the serenades of freedom >> > j) they are afraid > because they cannot NOTREAD what she writes in a 32 >> page >> > long essay > after walking with the comrades in the jungles of Dantewada >> > k) they are > afraid because the Indian state is now terribly scared of >> > putting her in > jail for that shall certainly fetch her the Nobel Prize >> and >> > win > Kashmir the Aazadi >> > l) they are afraid because she shared dais with SASG > and made him >> realize >> > that Kashmiris are not alone in their struggle > and also that Kashmiris >> also >> > need to know that there is a wider world > surrounding them that is also >> > struggling and that they need to > acknowledge it and support it; and that >> > the >> > Kashmiris have the > histories of India and Pakistan ( both collective and >> > separate) before > them to take strict lessons from, to fashion a >> > nation-state >> > that > does justice to the sacrifices of the people who have fought, are >> > > fighting and shall continue fighting for Kashmir; and that all struggles >> > > against the tyrant are essentially connected >> > m)they are afraid because > she hops from one issue to another ( Narmada >> > >>Maoists>>Kashmir>>which > next?) >> > n) they are afraid because she goes against their normative > definitions >> of >> > beauty and gender >> > o) they are afraid because 'even > a rickshawala' is praising her saying >> that >> > she is a 'pseudo > intellectual' (?) (Isn't it a pity that a rickshawala >> of >> > such a > potential is not on the sarai list?). >> > p) they are afraid because the > Indian media -the stooges of Indian state >> - >> > don't know what to do with > her (even supremely articulate ones from the >> > media (like Karan Thapar) > make an ass of themselves while interviewing >> her) >> > q) they are afraid > because she spits on their faces and is not wee bit >> > apologetic about it > because she knows that they deserve it and that its >> her >> > duty to do > that >> > r) they are afraid because she is fast becoming a role model for > the >> > beautiful, well-connected upper-class convent educated women who > are >> > devouring her from cover to cover secretively like mills-and-boons > even >> in >> > their bathrooms ( so that their businessmen fathers and social > butterfly >> > mothers don't catch them reading her) and dreaming about being > her in >> their >> > fantasy worlds (one of them confessed to me) ( in this > manner the >> > phenomenon >> > called Arundhati becomes a past-master in > reverse engineering) >> > s) they are afraid because she has made them realize > that capitalism is >> > like >> > a deadly virus that shall one day surely eat > itself away >> > t) they are afraid because she thinks with a beautiful heart > (hence a >> > 'pseudo-intellectual') >> > u) they are afraid because she > converts "aesthetics of deferral" ( one >> > scourge that afflicts most of the > 'intellectuals' of todays world) into >> a >> > beautiful "aestheto-ethics of > arrival", no mean feat i should say >> > v) they are afraid because they > unconsciously compete with her and >> finding >> > her a sure winner are > afraid to take the challenge >> > w) they are afraid because she challenges > the very rationale of their >> being >> > and becoming >> > x) they are afraid > because she happens to be a woman (like them) >> > y) they are afraid because > the Indian state has done a beautiful job in >> > bringing them up on a steady > diet of 'nationalist' propaganda through >> first >> > beginning with NCERT > textbooks in brainwashing saloons called 'Schools' >> ( >> > the reason behind > the popularity of Bollywood and Cricket) >> > z) they are afraid because > despite their manifest hate for her they have >> > serious doubts that some > where down there they love her too. >> > ... >> > >> > BTW, who is afraid of > what comes after Z? Jump the gun please. >> > > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion > list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the > subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion > list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the > subject header. >> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > > > -- > Samvit > Rawal > 9422037853 > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > To err is human; > to forgive, infrequent. > - Franklin P. > Adams > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open > discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To > subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From adityarajbaul at gmail.com Sat Oct 30 10:46:34 2010 From: adityarajbaul at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Baul) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 10:46:34 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] WHO IS AFRAID OF ARUNDHATI ROY? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: awwww poor girl you never understand questions. would you like another candy? On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 10:41 AM, SJabbar wrote: > Dear Parvaiz, > I don't understand your big question. Do you not make a distinction between > the Kashmiri judiciary and the Indian judiciary, and between the IPC and the > RPC?  Please clarify. > Sincerely, > Sonia > > > > On 30/10/10 9:32 AM, "Parvaiz Bukhari" wrote: > >> Samvit this is a big question you must ask ypourself....why has the >> indian > judiciary failed to "perform" in Kashmir unlike >  elsewhere in the >> examples u give? Or, you are saying the judiciary is also > run by the >> separatists? > > On 30 October 2010 09:19, Samvit wrote: > >> >> Parvaiz, >> The fact of the matter is that Indian media does not parrot the >> language of >> the fanatics (either hindu or muslim) unlike the "Greater >> Kashmirs" of the >> Valley where the word Pandit is an anathema. Try and pick >> up any magazine or >> newspaper from the Valley and all they do it glorify >> >> separatism/terrorism/extremism. It seems they have become the new towers of >> >> capitalistic Kashmir where money is the opium of the "classes". Selling a >> >> newspaper is as good as selling a toothbrush. >> Indian judiciary, over the >> years has done a good (if not excellent) job and >> convicted people in all >> kinds of crimes. An example being the case against >> the former Gujarat Home >> Minister Amit Shah. In Kashmir not a single case >> against the Pandits has >> seen the light of the day. Bitta Karata is out in >> the open. Perhaps you >> should have written a piece about him. So ironical you >> talk about >> "surviving". >> >> Here, the opressor is trying to prove that he is the >> oppressed. >> >> People may write an epic of Gilgamish in Arundhati's honor but >> then it will >> be as slanderous as the courteisns who used to call Aurangzeb- >> "Oh, king of >> kings, oh pinnacle of the mercy........." >> -Samvit >> >> >> On >> Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 8:31 AM, Parvaiz Bukhari > > >> wrote: >> >>> Anxiously waiting for the fear to spread more so that more may >> survive >>> Indian politicians, media and the court historians of the >> day... >>> >>> On 30 October 2010 05:46, Pheeta Ram >> wrote: >>> >>> > Some people on this list are afraid of 'Arundhati Roy - the >> joke' ( BTW, >>> a >>> > joke is not a joke) because they are afraid of laughing >> for obvious >>> > reasons: >>> > >>> > a) they are afraid because some other >> people simply love her and are not >>> > afraid to confess that >>> > b) they >> are afraid because she used to visit some upper-class gym in >>> skimpy >>> > >> clothing >>> > c) they are afraid because she married twice and is finally >> officially >>> > single >>> > d) they are afraid because she supports maoists >> and for them maoist is a >>> > term of abuse >>> > e) they are afraid because >> she supports the Aazadi of Kashmiri people >>> from >>> > the repressive Indian >> state >>> >  f) they are afraid because she writes bewitchingly beautiful prose >> for >>> > subversive, anti-national purposes >>> > g) they are afraid because >> they think she is publicity hungry >>> > h) they are afraid because she is some >> day certainly going to win the >>> Nobel >>> > Prize >>> > i) they are afraid >> because she is simply beautiful in those curly hair >>> and >>> > that mellow >> childlike voice; and those mesmerizingly wondrous eyes which >>> > are >>> > not >> afraid to sing for you the serenades of freedom >>> > j) they are afraid >> because they cannot NOTREAD what she writes in a 32 >>> page >>> > long essay >> after walking with the comrades in the jungles of Dantewada >>> > k) they are >> afraid because the Indian state is now terribly scared of >>> > putting her in >> jail for that shall certainly fetch her the Nobel Prize >>> and >>> > win >> Kashmir the Aazadi >>> > l) they are afraid because she shared dais with SASG >> and made him >>> realize >>> > that Kashmiris are not alone in their struggle >> and also that Kashmiris >>> also >>> > need to know that there is a wider world >> surrounding them that is also >>> > struggling and that they need to >> acknowledge it and support it; and that >>> > the >>> > Kashmiris have the >> histories of India and Pakistan ( both collective and >>> > separate) before >> them to take strict lessons from, to fashion a >>> > nation-state >>> > that >> does justice to the sacrifices of the people who have fought, are >>> > >> fighting and shall continue fighting for Kashmir; and that all struggles >>> > >> against the tyrant are essentially connected >>> > m)they are afraid because >> she hops from one issue to another ( Narmada >>> > >>Maoists>>Kashmir>>which >> next?) >>> > n) they are afraid because she goes against their normative >> definitions >>> of >>> > beauty and gender >>> > o) they are afraid because 'even >> a rickshawala' is praising her saying >>> that >>> > she is a 'pseudo >> intellectual' (?) (Isn't it a pity that a rickshawala >>> of >>> > such a >> potential is not on the sarai list?). >>> > p) they are afraid because the >> Indian media -the stooges of Indian state >>> - >>> > don't know what to do with >> her (even supremely articulate ones from the >>> > media (like Karan Thapar) >> make an ass of themselves while interviewing >>> her) >>> > q) they are afraid >> because she spits on their faces and is not wee bit >>> > apologetic about it >> because she knows that they deserve it and that its >>> her >>> > duty to do >> that >>> > r) they are afraid because she is fast becoming a role model for >> the >>> > beautiful, well-connected upper-class convent educated women who >> are >>> > devouring her from cover to cover secretively like mills-and-boons >> even >>> in >>> > their bathrooms ( so that their businessmen fathers and social >> butterfly >>> > mothers don't catch them reading her) and dreaming about being >> her in >>> their >>> > fantasy worlds (one of them confessed to me) ( in this >> manner the >>> > phenomenon >>> > called Arundhati becomes a past-master in >> reverse engineering) >>> > s) they are afraid because she has made them realize >> that capitalism is >>> > like >>> > a deadly virus that shall one day surely eat >> itself away >>> > t) they are afraid because she thinks with a beautiful heart >> (hence a >>> > 'pseudo-intellectual') >>> > u) they are afraid because she >> converts "aesthetics of deferral" ( one >>> > scourge that afflicts most of the >> 'intellectuals' of todays world) into >>> a >>> > beautiful "aestheto-ethics of >> arrival", no mean feat i should say >>> > v) they are afraid because they >> unconsciously compete with her and >>> finding >>> > her a sure winner are >> afraid to take the challenge >>> > w) they are afraid because she challenges >> the very rationale of their >>> being >>> > and becoming >>> > x) they are afraid >> because she happens to be a woman (like them) >>> > y) they are afraid because >> the Indian state has done a beautiful job in >>> > bringing them up on a steady >> diet of 'nationalist' propaganda through >>> first >>> > beginning with NCERT >> textbooks in brainwashing saloons called 'Schools' >>> ( >>> > the reason behind >> the popularity of Bollywood and Cricket) >>> > z) they are afraid because >> despite their manifest hate for her they have >>> > serious doubts that some >> where down there they love her too. >>> > ... >>> > >>> > BTW, who is afraid of >> what comes after Z? Jump the gun please. >>> > >> _________________________________________ >>> > reader-list: an open discussion >> list on media and the city. >>> > Critiques & Collaborations >>> > To subscribe: >> send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> > subscribe in the >> subject header. >>> > To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> > List archive: >> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion >> list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: >> send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the >> subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: >> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Samvit >> Rawal >> 9422037853 >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------- >> To err is human; >> to forgive, infrequent. >>   - Franklin P. >> Adams >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open >> discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To >> subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in >> the subject header. > To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: >> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From chintan.backups at gmail.com Sat Oct 30 11:02:25 2010 From: chintan.backups at gmail.com (Chintan Girish Modi) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 11:02:25 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Seeking the Beloved: Festival of Sindhi Sufi Poetry in Bangalore Message-ID: From http://www.kabirproject.org/events/seeking%20the%20beloved%20a%20festival%20of%20sindhi%20sufi%20poetry This two day festival seeks to bring alive for Bangalore audiences the rich and vibrant Sindhi Sufi tradition around the poetic and musical legacy of Shah Abdul Latif Bhitai, the deeply-loved and renowned 17th century poet. The events would comprise an evening concert at NCBS amphitheatre on Nov 20th evening followed by a half day main festival in the centre of town on Nov 21st from 4 pm till 10 pm, consisting of two music concerts by folk singers from Kutch – Mooralala Marwada & troupe and Mitha Khan Jath &troupe. The music sessions would be interspersed with evocative story tellings of the seven folk love legends of the Indo-Pak Sindh region which appear in poetry, uncovering some of the spiritual metaphors and ideas of Shah Latif. There would be poetry reading sessions by Anju Makhija, a Mumbai-based poet who has translated Shah Latif’s poems into English. This is a partnership between the Kabir Project at Srishti, the Sindhi Culture Foundation and the National Centre for Biological Sciences, Bangalore. For more details, check http://www.kabirproject.org/events/seeking%20the%20beloved%20a%20festival%20of%20sindhi%20sufi%20poetry From sonia.jabbar at gmail.com Sat Oct 30 11:02:32 2010 From: sonia.jabbar at gmail.com (SJabbar) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 11:02:32 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] WHO IS AFRAID OF ARUNDHATI ROY? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: There are those who wish to shut people up by threatening sedition and there are others who wish to shut people up by their unrelenting rudeness and childishness. On 30/10/10 10:46 AM, "Aditya Raj Baul" wrote: > awwww poor girl you never understand questions. would you like another > candy? On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 10:41 AM, SJabbar > wrote: > Dear Parvaiz, > I don't understand your big question. Do you not make > a distinction between > the Kashmiri judiciary and the Indian judiciary, and > between the IPC and the > RPC?  Please clarify. > Sincerely, > Sonia > > > > > On 30/10/10 9:32 AM, "Parvaiz Bukhari" wrote: > >> > Samvit this is a big question you must ask ypourself....why has the >> > indian > judiciary failed to "perform" in Kashmir unlike >  elsewhere in > the >> examples u give? Or, you are saying the judiciary is also > run by > the >> separatists? > > On 30 October 2010 09:19, Samvit > wrote: > >> >> Parvaiz, >> The fact of the matter is that Indian media does > not parrot the >> language of >> the fanatics (either hindu or muslim) unlike > the "Greater >> Kashmirs" of the >> Valley where the word Pandit is an > anathema. Try and pick >> up any magazine or >> newspaper from the Valley and > all they do it glorify >> >> separatism/terrorism/extremism. It seems they > have become the new towers of >> >> capitalistic Kashmir where money is the > opium of the "classes". Selling a >> >> newspaper is as good as selling a > toothbrush. >> Indian judiciary, over the >> years has done a good (if not > excellent) job and >> convicted people in all >> kinds of crimes. An example > being the case against >> the former Gujarat Home >> Minister Amit Shah. In > Kashmir not a single case >> against the Pandits has >> seen the light of the > day. Bitta Karata is out in >> the open. Perhaps you >> should have written a > piece about him. So ironical you >> talk about >> "surviving". >> >> Here, the > opressor is trying to prove that he is the >> oppressed. >> >> People may > write an epic of Gilgamish in Arundhati's honor but >> then it will >> be as > slanderous as the courteisns who used to call Aurangzeb- >> "Oh, king of >> > kings, oh pinnacle of the mercy........." >> -Samvit >> >> >> On >> Sat, Oct > 30, 2010 at 8:31 AM, Parvaiz Bukhari > > >> > wrote: >> >>> Anxiously waiting for the fear to spread more so that more > may >> survive >>> Indian politicians, media and the court historians of > the >> day... >>> >>> On 30 October 2010 05:46, Pheeta Ram > >> wrote: >>> >>> > Some people on this list are afraid > of 'Arundhati Roy - the >> joke' ( BTW, >>> a >>> > joke is not a joke) > because they are afraid of laughing >> for obvious >>> > reasons: >>> > >>> > > a) they are afraid because some other >> people simply love her and are > not >>> > afraid to confess that >>> > b) they >> are afraid because she used > to visit some upper-class gym in >>> skimpy >>> > >> clothing >>> > c) they > are afraid because she married twice and is finally >> officially >>> > > single >>> > d) they are afraid because she supports maoists >> and for them > maoist is a >>> > term of abuse >>> > e) they are afraid because >> she > supports the Aazadi of Kashmiri people >>> from >>> > the repressive Indian >> > state >>> >  f) they are afraid because she writes bewitchingly beautiful > prose >> for >>> > subversive, anti-national purposes >>> > g) they are afraid > because >> they think she is publicity hungry >>> > h) they are afraid because > she is some >> day certainly going to win the >>> Nobel >>> > Prize >>> > i) > they are afraid >> because she is simply beautiful in those curly hair >>> > and >>> > that mellow >> childlike voice; and those mesmerizingly wondrous > eyes which >>> > are >>> > not >> afraid to sing for you the serenades of > freedom >>> > j) they are afraid >> because they cannot NOTREAD what she > writes in a 32 >>> page >>> > long essay >> after walking with the comrades in > the jungles of Dantewada >>> > k) they are >> afraid because the Indian state > is now terribly scared of >>> > putting her in >> jail for that shall > certainly fetch her the Nobel Prize >>> and >>> > win >> Kashmir the > Aazadi >>> > l) they are afraid because she shared dais with SASG >> and made > him >>> realize >>> > that Kashmiris are not alone in their struggle >> and > also that Kashmiris >>> also >>> > need to know that there is a wider world >> > surrounding them that is also >>> > struggling and that they need to >> > acknowledge it and support it; and that >>> > the >>> > Kashmiris have the >> > histories of India and Pakistan ( both collective and >>> > separate) > before >> them to take strict lessons from, to fashion a >>> > > nation-state >>> > that >> does justice to the sacrifices of the people who > have fought, are >>> > >> fighting and shall continue fighting for Kashmir; > and that all struggles >>> > >> against the tyrant are essentially > connected >>> > m)they are afraid because >> she hops from one issue to > another ( Narmada >>> > >>Maoists>>Kashmir>>which >> next?) >>> > n) they are > afraid because she goes against their normative >> definitions >>> of >>> > > beauty and gender >>> > o) they are afraid because 'even >> a rickshawala' is > praising her saying >>> that >>> > she is a 'pseudo >> intellectual' (?) > (Isn't it a pity that a rickshawala >>> of >>> > such a >> potential is not on > the sarai list?). >>> > p) they are afraid because the >> Indian media -the > stooges of Indian state >>> - >>> > don't know what to do with >> her (even > supremely articulate ones from the >>> > media (like Karan Thapar) >> make an > ass of themselves while interviewing >>> her) >>> > q) they are afraid >> > because she spits on their faces and is not wee bit >>> > apologetic about > it >> because she knows that they deserve it and that its >>> her >>> > duty > to do >> that >>> > r) they are afraid because she is fast becoming a role > model for >> the >>> > beautiful, well-connected upper-class convent educated > women who >> are >>> > devouring her from cover to cover secretively like > mills-and-boons >> even >>> in >>> > their bathrooms ( so that their > businessmen fathers and social >> butterfly >>> > mothers don't catch them > reading her) and dreaming about being >> her in >>> their >>> > fantasy worlds > (one of them confessed to me) ( in this >> manner the >>> > phenomenon >>> > > called Arundhati becomes a past-master in >> reverse engineering) >>> > s) > they are afraid because she has made them realize >> that capitalism is >>> > > like >>> > a deadly virus that shall one day surely eat >> itself away >>> > > t) they are afraid because she thinks with a beautiful heart >> (hence a >>> > > 'pseudo-intellectual') >>> > u) they are afraid because she >> converts > "aesthetics of deferral" ( one >>> > scourge that afflicts most of the >> > 'intellectuals' of todays world) into >>> a >>> > beautiful "aestheto-ethics > of >> arrival", no mean feat i should say >>> > v) they are afraid because > they >> unconsciously compete with her and >>> finding >>> > her a sure winner > are >> afraid to take the challenge >>> > w) they are afraid because she > challenges >> the very rationale of their >>> being >>> > and becoming >>> > > x) they are afraid >> because she happens to be a woman (like them) >>> > y) > they are afraid because >> the Indian state has done a beautiful job in >>> > > bringing them up on a steady >> diet of 'nationalist' propaganda through >>> > first >>> > beginning with NCERT >> textbooks in brainwashing saloons called > 'Schools' >>> ( >>> > the reason behind >> the popularity of Bollywood and > Cricket) >>> > z) they are afraid because >> despite their manifest hate for > her they have >>> > serious doubts that some >> where down there they love her > too. >>> > ... >>> > >>> > BTW, who is afraid of >> what comes after Z? Jump > the gun please. >>> > >> _________________________________________ >>> > > reader-list: an open discussion >> list on media and the city. >>> > Critiques > & Collaborations >>> > To subscribe: >> send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> > subscribe in the >> subject > header. >>> > To unsubscribe: >> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> > List archive: >> > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >> > _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open > discussion >> list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> > To subscribe: >> send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> > subscribe in the >> subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: >> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: >> > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> > Samvit >> Rawal >> 9422037853 >> >> > ----------------------------------------------------------- >> To err is > human; >> to forgive, infrequent. >>   - Franklin P. >> Adams >> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open >> discussion > list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To >> subscribe: > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in >> the > subject header. > To unsubscribe: >> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: >> > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion > list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send > an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> ___________________________ > ______________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To > unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From parvaizbukhari at gmail.com Sat Oct 30 11:07:40 2010 From: parvaizbukhari at gmail.com (Parvaiz Bukhari) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 11:07:40 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] WHO IS AFRAID OF ARUNDHATI ROY? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I wish to be caressed with elderly gentleness about what Kashmiri judiciary means..... On 30 October 2010 11:02, SJabbar wrote: > There are those who wish to shut people up by threatening sedition and > there > are others who wish to shut people up by their unrelenting rudeness and > childishness. > > > > On 30/10/10 10:46 AM, "Aditya Raj Baul" wrote: > > > awwww poor girl you never understand questions. would you like another > > candy? > > On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 10:41 AM, SJabbar > > wrote: > > Dear Parvaiz, > > I don't understand your big question. Do you not make > > a distinction between > > the Kashmiri judiciary and the Indian judiciary, and > > between the IPC and the > > RPC? Please clarify. > > Sincerely, > > Sonia > > > > > > > > > > On 30/10/10 9:32 AM, "Parvaiz Bukhari" wrote: > > > >> > > Samvit this is a big question you must ask ypourself....why has the > >> > > indian > > judiciary failed to "perform" in Kashmir unlike > > elsewhere in > > the > >> examples u give? Or, you are saying the judiciary is also > > run by > > the > >> separatists? > > > > On 30 October 2010 09:19, Samvit > > wrote: > > > >> > >> Parvaiz, > >> The fact of the matter is that Indian media does > > not parrot the > >> language of > >> the fanatics (either hindu or muslim) unlike > > the "Greater > >> Kashmirs" of the > >> Valley where the word Pandit is an > > anathema. Try and pick > >> up any magazine or > >> newspaper from the Valley and > > all they do it glorify > >> > >> separatism/terrorism/extremism. It seems they > > have become the new towers of > >> > >> capitalistic Kashmir where money is the > > opium of the "classes". Selling a > >> > >> newspaper is as good as selling a > > toothbrush. > >> Indian judiciary, over the > >> years has done a good (if not > > excellent) job and > >> convicted people in all > >> kinds of crimes. An example > > being the case against > >> the former Gujarat Home > >> Minister Amit Shah. In > > Kashmir not a single case > >> against the Pandits has > >> seen the light of the > > day. Bitta Karata is out in > >> the open. Perhaps you > >> should have written a > > piece about him. So ironical you > >> talk about > >> "surviving". > >> > >> Here, the > > opressor is trying to prove that he is the > >> oppressed. > >> > >> People may > > write an epic of Gilgamish in Arundhati's honor but > >> then it will > >> be as > > slanderous as the courteisns who used to call Aurangzeb- > >> "Oh, king of > >> > > kings, oh pinnacle of the mercy........." > >> -Samvit > >> > >> > >> On > >> Sat, Oct > > 30, 2010 at 8:31 AM, Parvaiz Bukhari >> > > >> > > wrote: > >> > >>> Anxiously waiting for the fear to spread more so that more > > may > >> survive > >>> Indian politicians, media and the court historians of > > the > >> day... > >>> > >>> On 30 October 2010 05:46, Pheeta Ram > > > >> wrote: > >>> > >>> > Some people on this list are afraid > > of 'Arundhati Roy - the > >> joke' ( BTW, > >>> a > >>> > joke is not a joke) > > because they are afraid of laughing > >> for obvious > >>> > reasons: > >>> > > >>> > > > a) they are afraid because some other > >> people simply love her and are > > not > >>> > afraid to confess that > >>> > b) they > >> are afraid because she used > > to visit some upper-class gym in > >>> skimpy > >>> > > >> clothing > >>> > c) they > > are afraid because she married twice and is finally > >> officially > >>> > > > single > >>> > d) they are afraid because she supports maoists > >> and for them > > maoist is a > >>> > term of abuse > >>> > e) they are afraid because > >> she > > supports the Aazadi of Kashmiri people > >>> from > >>> > the repressive Indian > >> > > state > >>> > f) they are afraid because she writes bewitchingly beautiful > > prose > >> for > >>> > subversive, anti-national purposes > >>> > g) they are afraid > > because > >> they think she is publicity hungry > >>> > h) they are afraid because > > she is some > >> day certainly going to win the > >>> Nobel > >>> > Prize > >>> > i) > > they are afraid > >> because she is simply beautiful in those curly hair > >>> > > and > >>> > that mellow > >> childlike voice; and those mesmerizingly wondrous > > eyes which > >>> > are > >>> > not > >> afraid to sing for you the serenades of > > freedom > >>> > j) they are afraid > >> because they cannot NOTREAD what she > > writes in a 32 > >>> page > >>> > long essay > >> after walking with the comrades in > > the jungles of Dantewada > >>> > k) they are > >> afraid because the Indian state > > is now terribly scared of > >>> > putting her in > >> jail for that shall > > certainly fetch her the Nobel Prize > >>> and > >>> > win > >> Kashmir the > > Aazadi > >>> > l) they are afraid because she shared dais with SASG > >> and made > > him > >>> realize > >>> > that Kashmiris are not alone in their struggle > >> and > > also that Kashmiris > >>> also > >>> > need to know that there is a wider world > >> > > surrounding them that is also > >>> > struggling and that they need to > >> > > acknowledge it and support it; and that > >>> > the > >>> > Kashmiris have the > >> > > histories of India and Pakistan ( both collective and > >>> > separate) > > before > >> them to take strict lessons from, to fashion a > >>> > > > nation-state > >>> > that > >> does justice to the sacrifices of the people who > > have fought, are > >>> > > >> fighting and shall continue fighting for Kashmir; > > and that all struggles > >>> > > >> against the tyrant are essentially > > connected > >>> > m)they are afraid because > >> she hops from one issue to > > another ( Narmada > >>> > >>Maoists>>Kashmir>>which > >> next?) > >>> > n) they are > > afraid because she goes against their normative > >> definitions > >>> of > >>> > > > beauty and gender > >>> > o) they are afraid because 'even > >> a rickshawala' is > > praising her saying > >>> that > >>> > she is a 'pseudo > >> intellectual' (?) > > (Isn't it a pity that a rickshawala > >>> of > >>> > such a > >> potential is not on > > the sarai list?). > >>> > p) they are afraid because the > >> Indian media -the > > stooges of Indian state > >>> - > >>> > don't know what to do with > >> her (even > > supremely articulate ones from the > >>> > media (like Karan Thapar) > >> make an > > ass of themselves while interviewing > >>> her) > >>> > q) they are afraid > >> > > because she spits on their faces and is not wee bit > >>> > apologetic about > > it > >> because she knows that they deserve it and that its > >>> her > >>> > duty > > to do > >> that > >>> > r) they are afraid because she is fast becoming a role > > model for > >> the > >>> > beautiful, well-connected upper-class convent educated > > women who > >> are > >>> > devouring her from cover to cover secretively like > > mills-and-boons > >> even > >>> in > >>> > their bathrooms ( so that their > > businessmen fathers and social > >> butterfly > >>> > mothers don't catch them > > reading her) and dreaming about being > >> her in > >>> their > >>> > fantasy worlds > > (one of them confessed to me) ( in this > >> manner the > >>> > phenomenon > >>> > > > called Arundhati becomes a past-master in > >> reverse engineering) > >>> > s) > > they are afraid because she has made them realize > >> that capitalism is > >>> > > > like > >>> > a deadly virus that shall one day surely eat > >> itself away > >>> > > > t) they are afraid because she thinks with a beautiful heart > >> (hence a > >>> > > > 'pseudo-intellectual') > >>> > u) they are afraid because she > >> converts > > "aesthetics of deferral" ( one > >>> > scourge that afflicts most of the > >> > > 'intellectuals' of todays world) into > >>> a > >>> > beautiful "aestheto-ethics > > of > >> arrival", no mean feat i should say > >>> > v) they are afraid because > > they > >> unconsciously compete with her and > >>> finding > >>> > her a sure winner > > are > >> afraid to take the challenge > >>> > w) they are afraid because she > > challenges > >> the very rationale of their > >>> being > >>> > and becoming > >>> > > > x) they are afraid > >> because she happens to be a woman (like them) > >>> > y) > > they are afraid because > >> the Indian state has done a beautiful job in > >>> > > > bringing them up on a steady > >> diet of 'nationalist' propaganda through > >>> > > first > >>> > beginning with NCERT > >> textbooks in brainwashing saloons called > > 'Schools' > >>> ( > >>> > the reason behind > >> the popularity of Bollywood and > > Cricket) > >>> > z) they are afraid because > >> despite their manifest hate for > > her they have > >>> > serious doubts that some > >> where down there they love her > > too. > >>> > ... > >>> > > >>> > BTW, who is afraid of > >> what comes after Z? Jump > > the gun please. > >>> > > >> _________________________________________ > >>> > > > reader-list: an open discussion > >> list on media and the city. > >>> > Critiques > > & Collaborations > >>> > To subscribe: > >> send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>> > subscribe in the > >> subject > > header. > >>> > To unsubscribe: > >> > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>> > List archive: > >> > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >>> > >> > > _________________________________________ > >>> reader-list: an open > > discussion > >> list on media and the city. > >>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>> > > To subscribe: > >> send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>> > > subscribe in the > >> subject header. > >>> To unsubscribe: > >> > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>> List archive: > >> > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> > > Samvit > >> Rawal > >> 9422037853 > >> > >> > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > >> To err is > > human; > >> to forgive, infrequent. > >> - Franklin P. > >> Adams > >> > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open > >> discussion > > list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To > >> subscribe: > > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > >> the > > subject header. > > To unsubscribe: > >> > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > >> > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion > > list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send > > an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > > header. > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > ___________________________ > > ______________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > > city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To > > unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From adityarajbaul at gmail.com Sat Oct 30 13:10:07 2010 From: adityarajbaul at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Baul) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 13:10:07 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] WHO IS AFRAID OF ARUNDHATI ROY? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Look who's talking! On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 11:02 AM, SJabbar wrote: > There are those who wish to shut people up by threatening sedition and there > are others who wish to shut people up by their unrelenting rudeness and > childishness. > > > > On 30/10/10 10:46 AM, "Aditya Raj Baul" wrote: > >> awwww poor girl you never understand questions. would you like another >> candy? > > On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 10:41 AM, SJabbar >> wrote: >> Dear Parvaiz, >> I don't understand your big question. Do you not make >> a distinction between >> the Kashmiri judiciary and the Indian judiciary, and >> between the IPC and the >> RPC?  Please clarify. >> Sincerely, >> Sonia >> >> >> >> >> On 30/10/10 9:32 AM, "Parvaiz Bukhari" wrote: >> >>> >> Samvit this is a big question you must ask ypourself....why has the >>> >> indian >> judiciary failed to "perform" in Kashmir unlike >>  elsewhere in >> the >>> examples u give? Or, you are saying the judiciary is also >> run by >> the >>> separatists? >> >> On 30 October 2010 09:19, Samvit >> wrote: >> >>> >>> Parvaiz, >>> The fact of the matter is that Indian media does >> not parrot the >>> language of >>> the fanatics (either hindu or muslim) unlike >> the "Greater >>> Kashmirs" of the >>> Valley where the word Pandit is an >> anathema. Try and pick >>> up any magazine or >>> newspaper from the Valley and >> all they do it glorify >>> >>> separatism/terrorism/extremism. It seems they >> have become the new towers of >>> >>> capitalistic Kashmir where money is the >> opium of the "classes". Selling a >>> >>> newspaper is as good as selling a >> toothbrush. >>> Indian judiciary, over the >>> years has done a good (if not >> excellent) job and >>> convicted people in all >>> kinds of crimes. An example >> being the case against >>> the former Gujarat Home >>> Minister Amit Shah. In >> Kashmir not a single case >>> against the Pandits has >>> seen the light of the >> day. Bitta Karata is out in >>> the open. Perhaps you >>> should have written a >> piece about him. So ironical you >>> talk about >>> "surviving". >>> >>> Here, the >> opressor is trying to prove that he is the >>> oppressed. >>> >>> People may >> write an epic of Gilgamish in Arundhati's honor but >>> then it will >>> be as >> slanderous as the courteisns who used to call Aurangzeb- >>> "Oh, king of >>> >> kings, oh pinnacle of the mercy........." >>> -Samvit >>> >>> >>> On >>> Sat, Oct >> 30, 2010 at 8:31 AM, Parvaiz Bukhari >> > >>> >> wrote: >>> >>>> Anxiously waiting for the fear to spread more so that more >> may >>> survive >>>> Indian politicians, media and the court historians of >> the >>> day... >>>> >>>> On 30 October 2010 05:46, Pheeta Ram >> >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> > Some people on this list are afraid >> of 'Arundhati Roy - the >>> joke' ( BTW, >>>> a >>>> > joke is not a joke) >> because they are afraid of laughing >>> for obvious >>>> > reasons: >>>> > >>>> > >> a) they are afraid because some other >>> people simply love her and are >> not >>>> > afraid to confess that >>>> > b) they >>> are afraid because she used >> to visit some upper-class gym in >>>> skimpy >>>> > >>> clothing >>>> > c) they >> are afraid because she married twice and is finally >>> officially >>>> > >> single >>>> > d) they are afraid because she supports maoists >>> and for them >> maoist is a >>>> > term of abuse >>>> > e) they are afraid because >>> she >> supports the Aazadi of Kashmiri people >>>> from >>>> > the repressive Indian >>> >> state >>>> >  f) they are afraid because she writes bewitchingly beautiful >> prose >>> for >>>> > subversive, anti-national purposes >>>> > g) they are afraid >> because >>> they think she is publicity hungry >>>> > h) they are afraid because >> she is some >>> day certainly going to win the >>>> Nobel >>>> > Prize >>>> > i) >> they are afraid >>> because she is simply beautiful in those curly hair >>>> >> and >>>> > that mellow >>> childlike voice; and those mesmerizingly wondrous >> eyes which >>>> > are >>>> > not >>> afraid to sing for you the serenades of >> freedom >>>> > j) they are afraid >>> because they cannot NOTREAD what she >> writes in a 32 >>>> page >>>> > long essay >>> after walking with the comrades in >> the jungles of Dantewada >>>> > k) they are >>> afraid because the Indian state >> is now terribly scared of >>>> > putting her in >>> jail for that shall >> certainly fetch her the Nobel Prize >>>> and >>>> > win >>> Kashmir the >> Aazadi >>>> > l) they are afraid because she shared dais with SASG >>> and made >> him >>>> realize >>>> > that Kashmiris are not alone in their struggle >>> and >> also that Kashmiris >>>> also >>>> > need to know that there is a wider world >>> >> surrounding them that is also >>>> > struggling and that they need to >>> >> acknowledge it and support it; and that >>>> > the >>>> > Kashmiris have the >>> >> histories of India and Pakistan ( both collective and >>>> > separate) >> before >>> them to take strict lessons from, to fashion a >>>> > >> nation-state >>>> > that >>> does justice to the sacrifices of the people who >> have fought, are >>>> > >>> fighting and shall continue fighting for Kashmir; >> and that all struggles >>>> > >>> against the tyrant are essentially >> connected >>>> > m)they are afraid because >>> she hops from one issue to >> another ( Narmada >>>> > >>Maoists>>Kashmir>>which >>> next?) >>>> > n) they are >> afraid because she goes against their normative >>> definitions >>>> of >>>> > >> beauty and gender >>>> > o) they are afraid because 'even >>> a rickshawala' is >> praising her saying >>>> that >>>> > she is a 'pseudo >>> intellectual' (?) >> (Isn't it a pity that a rickshawala >>>> of >>>> > such a >>> potential is not on >> the sarai list?). >>>> > p) they are afraid because the >>> Indian media -the >> stooges of Indian state >>>> - >>>> > don't know what to do with >>> her (even >> supremely articulate ones from the >>>> > media (like Karan Thapar) >>> make an >> ass of themselves while interviewing >>>> her) >>>> > q) they are afraid >>> >> because she spits on their faces and is not wee bit >>>> > apologetic about >> it >>> because she knows that they deserve it and that its >>>> her >>>> > duty >> to do >>> that >>>> > r) they are afraid because she is fast becoming a role >> model for >>> the >>>> > beautiful, well-connected upper-class convent educated >> women who >>> are >>>> > devouring her from cover to cover secretively like >> mills-and-boons >>> even >>>> in >>>> > their bathrooms ( so that their >> businessmen fathers and social >>> butterfly >>>> > mothers don't catch them >> reading her) and dreaming about being >>> her in >>>> their >>>> > fantasy worlds >> (one of them confessed to me) ( in this >>> manner the >>>> > phenomenon >>>> > >> called Arundhati becomes a past-master in >>> reverse engineering) >>>> > s) >> they are afraid because she has made them realize >>> that capitalism is >>>> > >> like >>>> > a deadly virus that shall one day surely eat >>> itself away >>>> > >> t) they are afraid because she thinks with a beautiful heart >>> (hence a >>>> > >> 'pseudo-intellectual') >>>> > u) they are afraid because she >>> converts >> "aesthetics of deferral" ( one >>>> > scourge that afflicts most of the >>> >> 'intellectuals' of todays world) into >>>> a >>>> > beautiful "aestheto-ethics >> of >>> arrival", no mean feat i should say >>>> > v) they are afraid because >> they >>> unconsciously compete with her and >>>> finding >>>> > her a sure winner >> are >>> afraid to take the challenge >>>> > w) they are afraid because she >> challenges >>> the very rationale of their >>>> being >>>> > and becoming >>>> > >> x) they are afraid >>> because she happens to be a woman (like them) >>>> > y) >> they are afraid because >>> the Indian state has done a beautiful job in >>>> > >> bringing them up on a steady >>> diet of 'nationalist' propaganda through >>>> >> first >>>> > beginning with NCERT >>> textbooks in brainwashing saloons called >> 'Schools' >>>> ( >>>> > the reason behind >>> the popularity of Bollywood and >> Cricket) >>>> > z) they are afraid because >>> despite their manifest hate for >> her they have >>>> > serious doubts that some >>> where down there they love her >> too. >>>> > ... >>>> > >>>> > BTW, who is afraid of >>> what comes after Z? Jump >> the gun please. >>>> > >>> _________________________________________ >>>> > >> reader-list: an open discussion >>> list on media and the city. >>>> > Critiques >> & Collaborations >>>> > To subscribe: >>> send an email to >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> > subscribe in the >>> subject >> header. >>>> > To unsubscribe: >>> >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> > List archive: >>> >> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> >>> >> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open >> discussion >>> list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> >> To subscribe: >>> send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> >> subscribe in the >>> subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: >>> >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: >>> >> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >> Samvit >>> Rawal >>> 9422037853 >>> >>> >> ----------------------------------------------------------- >>> To err is >> human; >>> to forgive, infrequent. >>>   - Franklin P. >>> Adams >>> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open >>> discussion >> list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To >>> subscribe: >> send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in >>> the >> subject header. >> To unsubscribe: >>> >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: >>> >> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion >> list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send >> an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject >> header. >> To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: >> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > ___________________________ >> ______________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the >> city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To >> unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: >> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > From aalok.aima at yahoo.com Sat Oct 30 16:31:28 2010 From: aalok.aima at yahoo.com (Aalok Aima) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 04:01:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] drag the likes of arundhati roy to the people's court for adjucation? Message-ID: <882875.56299.qm@web120202.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> should the likes of arundhati roy be similarly 'dragged to the people's court for adjucation' for doing 'irreparable damage to the collective cause of nation' ? geelani said: "Those who show any laxity or violate the protest programmes in these days will not only commit treason with the martyrs’ blood but also do an irreparable damage to the collective cause of nation. The pro-freedom young generation will not tolerate such traitors and they will be dragged to the people’s court for adjudication,"   .......... aalok aima   http://www.greaterkashmir.com/news/2010/Oct/30/next-10-days-crucial-geelani-49.asp   Next 10-days crucial: Geelani GK NEWS NETWORK Srinagar, Oct 29: Reiterating his call for complete shutdown on October 30, the Hurriyat Conference (G) chairman Syed Ali Shah Geelani has said the coming 10 days were of great significance for the ongoing movement. Geelani, according to a Hurriyat statement, has stressed for intensifying the protest programmes in coming days. “Those who show any laxity or violate the protest programmes in these days will not only commit treason with the martyrs’ blood but also do an irreparable damage to the collective cause of nation. The pro-freedom young generation will not tolerate such traitors and they will be dragged to the people’s court for adjudication,” Geelani said, appealing to the Sumo and auto rickshaw operators to appreciate of the sensitivity of situation and desist from causing damage to the interest of movement.  “Our freedom struggle has taken a new direction and this change has not only attracted the international focus but has also shaken the stubborn Indian rulers, giving them sleepless nights. This new phase of struggle has encouraged and generated a new hope in people for making their sacrifices result oriented,” said Geelani, adding that showing any weakness or laxity at this juncture would be extremely detrimental to the cause of freedom.  Geelani said, “Presently strong and effective voices are not only raised in the world in favour of Kashmiris’ cause but in India too people have started feeling the pain and agony of Kashmiris.”  “The forthcoming visit of American president to India has drawn the attention of whole world to South Asia particularly Kashmir. So it is all the more imperative for us to highlight the atrocities being perpetrated on us by India more and more forcefully to put across a message to the world that the resolution of 63-year old Kashmir issue could not be further delayed any more. And delay in resolving this issue will not only endanger the life of human beings in the region but also make peace a far fetched dream in South Asia,” said Geelani. From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Sat Oct 30 16:51:14 2010 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 16:51:14 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] An open letter to Arundhati Roy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In bad taste, and also sexist! (Condolence) Like to share (the) 'only' worry here: why should one feel this t..r...a....s.....h worth writing/reading/sharing ?! Oct 27, 2010 at 8:44 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > An open letter to Arundhati Roy > > October 27, 2010< > http://blog.fakingnews.com/2010/10/an-open-letter-to-arundhati-roy/> > by Pagal Patrakar > > Link - http://blog.fakingnews.com/2010/10/an-open-letter-to-arundhati-roy/ > > Hey woman, > > Congrats, you are back in news! You were trending on Twitter and featured > in > Google trends. And thanks, you made many guys look up dictionary.com to > understand what sedition meant. You are really of some use! > > Well, I read your > statement< > http://www.hindustantimes.com/Arundhati-s-statement-from-Srinagar-Full-text/Article1-618034.aspx > >, > and I loved it because it was not a fucking 30,000 words essay! Anyway, I > had some reactions, please find them below (in bold and in red, adjectives > that you prefer?): > > Kashmir, Oct. 26:* *I write this from Srinagar, Kashmir. *(Wonderful, you > are going places woman, wished you had cared to write something from Bihar > or UP; people are suffering due to neglect and bad politics there too, but > wait, stay where you are.)* This morning’s papers say that I may be > arrested > on charges of sedition for what I have said at recent public meetings on > Kashmir. *(LOL! You read and believe newspapers? But I guess that’s what > you do when you wake up in the morning – take up a newspaper and find if > your name appears anywhere. If not, you plan how it can.)* I said what > millions of people here say every day. *(Millions of people say benc**d in > India every day, that doesn’t sanction that term any “social acceptance”)* > I > said what I, as well as other commentators, have written and said for > years. > *(Absolutely, you have NEVER said or written anything NEW. You just pick up > issues, after reading the morning newspapers, and join the > bandwagon.)*Anybody who cares to read the transcripts of my speeches > will see that they > were fundamentally a call for justice. *(Sorry, I didn’t really care to > read > the transcript of your speeches. Can you make them a bit shorter? I’ve an > attention span problem.)* I spoke about justice for the people of Kashmir > who live under one of the most brutal military occupations in the world; > *(Oh, > Kashmir is an area under military occupation? Thanks, will update my > general > knowledge and Wikimapia, but wait, how come you were allowed there? Don’t > all democratic rights cease to exist in an area under military occupation? > Or were you an “embedded activist” like those embedded journalists of CNN > in > Iraq during the Gulf War?)* for Kashmiri Pandits who live out the tragedy > of > having been driven out of their homeland; *(Really? Or are you fucking > kidding me?)* for Dalit soldiers killed in Kashmir whose graves I visited > on > garbage heaps in their villages in Cuddalore; *(What the fuck is a “Dalit > soldier” with a “grave”? I thought Dalits existed only within Hinduism and > Sikhism, where there are no graves. Oh okay, next you are writing a 300,000 > essay on why Dalits are neither Hindu/Sikh/Christian/Muslim nor Indian, and > why the need justice and liberty from the tyrannous Brahminical Indian > state?)* for the Indian poor who pay the price of this occupation in > material ways and who are now learning to live in the terror of what is > becoming a police state. *(Oh great, so this whole country is under some > kind of occupation – police state – what the fuck, you opened my eyes, > where > is the red flag?)* > > Yesterday I traveled to Shopian, the apple-town in South Kashmir which had > remained closed for 47 days last year in protest against the brutal rape > and > murder of Asiya and Nilofer, the young women whose bodies were found in a > shallow stream near their homes and whose murderers have still not been > brought to justice. *(Yes, “last year”, and you are visiting the place > “now” > because your heart bleeds for a common Kashmiri.) * I met Shakeel, who is > Nilofer’s husband and Asiya’s brother. *(Wait a minute; you were also in > Delhi a couple of weeks back. Did you meet any Kashmiri Pandit, for whom > you > claimed to be seeking justice in the earlier paragraph?)* We sat in a > circle > of people crazed with grief and anger who had lost hope that they would > ever > get insaf — justice — from India, and now believed that Azadi — freedom — > was their only hope. *(Have you seen the Bollywood movie Gulaal? You can > sit in such circles almost in each part of this country and listen to cries > of Azadi from imagined powers. There are Brahmins in this country, whom you > think control everything, who feel “trapped” in the modern state that is > implementing reservations for everyone except them.)* I met young stone > pelters who had been shot through their eyes. *(Did you meet that Indian > policeman who lost his eye after a 5 kg stone hit his eye?) * I traveled > with a young man who told me how three of his friends, teenagers in > Anantnag > district, had been taken into custody and had their finger-nails pulled out > as punishment for throwing stones. *(I once traveled with a Hindu in > Ahmedabad, who told me how Muslims had created an “acid pool” in “their > area” and used to throw Hindus in them during riots; there have been many > riots in Ahmedabad, not just during 2002, for your kind information. Of > course I didn’t believe him and went out to write an essay or even a fake > news article. I don’t believe people easily and form opinions. If the state > can’t be trusted blindly, that doesn’t mean I’d trust every other non-state > actor blindly. Oh, non-state actor!)* > > In the papers some have accused me of giving ‘hate-speeches’, of wanting > India to break up. *(Yes, there are idiots who take you seriously.)* On > the > contrary, what I say comes from love and pride. *(ROFLMAO!)* It comes from > not wanting people to be killed, raped, imprisoned or have their > finger-nails pulled out in order to force them to say they are Indians. > *(But > you are fine and your conscience is not disturbed if someone does the same > to people and force them to say that they are NOT Indians?)* It comes from > wanting to live in a society that is striving to be a just one. *(“just” > one > or “just one”? People like you are surely not going to let this society be > “just one”. It would be broken into Dalits, Tribals, Muslims, Brahmins, > Christians, Poor, Rich, Women, etc. I want my society and country to be > “just one” for god’s sake!)* Pity the nation that has to silence its > writers > for speaking their minds. *(Yes, yes, pity the nation that produces such > writers. Today I’m proud of Chetan Bhagat, seriously.)* Pity the nation > that > needs to jail those who ask for justice, while communal killers, mass > murderers, corporate scamsters, looters, rapists, and those who prey on the > poorest of the poor, roam free. *(Yes, I’d pity the nation only if you were > “actually” jailed, and you won’t be, dear, because this is a country that > doesn’t need your pity.)* > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- You cannot build anything on the foundations of caste. You cannot build up a nation, you cannot build up a morality. Anything that you will build on the foundations of caste will crack and will never be a whole. -AMBEDKAR http://venukm.blogspot.com http://www.shelfari.com/kmvenuannur http://kmvenuannur.livejournal.com From indersalim at gmail.com Sat Oct 30 18:09:46 2010 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 18:09:46 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] drag the likes of arundhati roy to the people's court for adjucation? In-Reply-To: <882875.56299.qm@web120202.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <882875.56299.qm@web120202.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Aalok finally it is about you, your choice of punishing people, i would like to know your full list, or it has just begun, with Roy as NO.1. it is very interesting to see how proud citizens like you easily condone the terrible long long list of politicians and beauracrats who loot the country as every moment, but ah, you might be the beneficiary of this rotten system of ours and so why to talk about that. right What you want is witch hunting, of pushing the female goat to the exit doors of the city, and kill her, for the purification of the city. Sad you are propagating fascism, and not about the justice for those who are suffering you want saner voice to die before they are even heard. Because we are shining india. How true, just see, you have posted a line about the scam of Adarsh Nagar in Mumbai, becuase they all look very clean, swear the Gita and Constituion of India as many times as they are offered promotions: all the Generals and kins of CM. shame shame for the absence of the brave hearts please keep it up but rave for the absence of love in your heart is On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 4:31 PM, Aalok Aima wrote: > should the likes of arundhati roy be similarly 'dragged to the people's court for adjucation' for doing 'irreparable damage to the collective cause of nation' ? > > geelani said: > > "Those who show any laxity or violate the protest programmes in these days will not only commit treason with the martyrs’ blood but also do an irreparable damage to the collective cause of nation. The pro-freedom young generation will not tolerate such traitors and they will be dragged to the people’s court for adjudication," > > .......... aalok aima > > http://www.greaterkashmir.com/news/2010/Oct/30/next-10-days-crucial-geelani-49.asp > > Next 10-days crucial: Geelani > GK NEWS NETWORK > Srinagar, Oct 29: Reiterating his call for complete shutdown on October 30, the Hurriyat Conference (G) chairman Syed Ali Shah Geelani has said the coming 10 days were of great significance for the ongoing movement. > > Geelani, according to a Hurriyat statement, has stressed for intensifying the protest programmes in coming days. “Those who show any laxity or violate the protest programmes in these days will not only commit treason with the martyrs’ blood but also do an irreparable damage to the collective cause of nation. The pro-freedom young generation will not tolerate such traitors and they will be dragged to the people’s court for adjudication,” Geelani said, appealing to the Sumo and auto rickshaw operators to appreciate of the sensitivity of situation and desist from causing damage to the interest of movement. > >  “Our freedom struggle has taken a new direction and this change has not only attracted the international focus but has also shaken the stubborn Indian rulers, giving them sleepless nights. This new phase of struggle has encouraged and generated a new hope in people for making their sacrifices result oriented,” said Geelani, adding that showing any weakness or laxity at this juncture would be extremely detrimental to the cause of freedom. > >  Geelani said, “Presently strong and effective voices are not only raised in the world in favour of Kashmiris’ cause but in India too people have started feeling the pain and agony of Kashmiris.” > >  “The forthcoming visit of American president to India has drawn the attention of whole world to South Asia particularly Kashmir. So it is all the more imperative for us to highlight the atrocities being perpetrated on us by India more and more forcefully to put across a message to the world that the resolution of 63-year old Kashmir issue could not be further delayed any more. And delay in resolving this issue will not only endanger the life of human beings in the region but also make peace a far fetched dream in South Asia,” said Geelani. > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From aalok.aima at yahoo.com Sat Oct 30 19:23:34 2010 From: aalok.aima at yahoo.com (Aalok Aima) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 06:53:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] drag the likes of arundhati roy to the people's court for adjucation? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <229731.4113.qm@web120218.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> inder   i wanted to alter your sentence a bit and ask you to "rave for the absence of rationality and honesty in your heart" ...... problem was i did not know what it means/implies   geelani (as per the gk report) advised us that those who he judges as guilty of "commit treason with the martyr's blood" (as per his standards) are also doing "irreparable damage to the collective cause of nation" (his concept of nation); are "traitors" and will get "dragged to the people’s court for adjudication"   my question was that whether "similarly" (using geelani's standards) "the likes of arundhati roy" should be "dragged to the people's court for adjucation" for doing "irreparable damage to the collective cause of nation" (the indian nation)?   you could have answered that question ....... what was the need for going into a "rave"?   i really did not understand what you were about in your response:   "finally it is about you" (what is about me? there was no mention of a 'me' in my comment)   "your choice of punishing people" (my choice? it is geelani's choice ..... mine was a question prompted by geelani's choice)   "i would like to know your full list, or it has just begun, with Roy as NO.1" (i have no list for punishment for anyone)   "it is interesting to see how proud citizens like you easily condone the terrible long long list of politicians and beauracrats who loot the country as every moment" (i too would find it interesting if i were to do such a thing ....... you seem to be sure that i have done it ..... any evidence of it?)   "but ah, you might be the beneficiary of this rotten system of ours and so why to talk about that. right" (not right and your styatement borders on the 'libel' of suggesting that i could be the 'beneficiary' of a 'rotten system') "What you want is witch hunting, of pushing the female goat to the exit doors of the city, and kill her, for the purification of the city. Sad" (it is sad that you should unthinkingly make that accusation without knowing anything about me ....... tell me ..... did you just call arundhati a 'witch' and a 'female goat'?)   "you are propagating fascism and not about the justice for those who are suffering" (since i have not propagated anything here but asked a question derived from geelani's propagation, how am i propagating fascism? or did you mean that i was propagating geelani's fascism? ) "you want saner voice to die before they are even heard" (no i do not want anyone to die ..... i am against the 'death' diktat even if issued by a court of law ...... do not want anyone sane or insane to die)   "Because we are shining india." (sorry to disappoint you ..... i do not subscribe to the bjp propaganda of 'shining india' or the concept of 'india is a super power') "How true, just see, you have posted a line about the scam of Adarsh Nagar in Mumbai," (what is true? where have i posted a line about the adarsh nagar scam?)   you should stop 'raving'   ........... aalok aima   --- On Sat, 10/30/10, Inder Salim wrote: From: Inder Salim Subject: Re: [Reader-list] drag the likes of arundhati roy to the people's court for adjucation? To: "reader-list" Date: Saturday, October 30, 2010, 4:39 PM Dear Aalok finally it is about you, your choice of punishing people, i would like to know your full list, or it has just begun, with Roy as NO.1. it is very interesting to see how proud citizens like you easily condone the terrible long long list of politicians and beauracrats who loot the country as every moment, but ah, you might be the beneficiary of this rotten system of ours and so why to talk about that. right What you want is witch hunting, of pushing the female goat to the exit doors of the city, and kill her, for the purification of the city. Sad you are propagating fascism, and not about the justice for those who are suffering you want saner voice to die before they are even heard. Because we are shining india. How true, just see, you have posted a line about the scam of Adarsh Nagar in Mumbai, becuase they all look very clean, swear the Gita and Constituion of India as many times as they are offered promotions: all the Generals and kins of CM. shame shame for the absence of the brave hearts please keep it up but rave for the absence of love in your heart is On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 4:31 PM, Aalok Aima wrote: > should the likes of arundhati roy be similarly 'dragged to the people's court for adjucation' for doing 'irreparable damage to the collective cause of nation' ? > > geelani said: > > "Those who show any laxity or violate the protest programmes in these days will not only commit treason with the martyrs’ blood but also do an irreparable damage to the collective cause of nation. The pro-freedom young generation will not tolerate such traitors and they will be dragged to the people’s court for adjudication," > > .......... aalok aima > > http://www.greaterkashmir.com/news/2010/Oct/30/next-10-days-crucial-geelani-49.asp > > Next 10-days crucial: Geelani > GK NEWS NETWORK > Srinagar, Oct 29: Reiterating his call for complete shutdown on October 30, the Hurriyat Conference (G) chairman Syed Ali Shah Geelani has said the coming 10 days were of great significance for the ongoing movement. > > Geelani, according to a Hurriyat statement, has stressed for intensifying the protest programmes in coming days. “Those who show any laxity or violate the protest programmes in these days will not only commit treason with the martyrs’ blood but also do an irreparable damage to the collective cause of nation. The pro-freedom young generation will not tolerate such traitors and they will be dragged to the people’s court for adjudication,” Geelani said, appealing to the Sumo and auto rickshaw operators to appreciate of the sensitivity of situation and desist from causing damage to the interest of movement. > >  “Our freedom struggle has taken a new direction and this change has not only attracted the international focus but has also shaken the stubborn Indian rulers, giving them sleepless nights. This new phase of struggle has encouraged and generated a new hope in people for making their sacrifices result oriented,” said Geelani, adding that showing any weakness or laxity at this juncture would be extremely detrimental to the cause of freedom. > >  Geelani said, “Presently strong and effective voices are not only raised in the world in favour of Kashmiris’ cause but in India too people have started feeling the pain and agony of Kashmiris.” > >  “The forthcoming visit of American president to India has drawn the attention of whole world to South Asia particularly Kashmir. So it is all the more imperative for us to highlight the atrocities being perpetrated on us by India more and more forcefully to put across a message to the world that the resolution of 63-year old Kashmir issue could not be further delayed any more. And delay in resolving this issue will not only endanger the life of human beings in the region but also make peace a far fetched dream in South Asia,” said Geelani. > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From shuddha at sarai.net Sat Oct 30 21:55:17 2010 From: shuddha at sarai.net (shuddha at sarai.net) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 21:55:17 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] An open letter to Arundhati Roy In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <0ba3baee48658ce8caf3b6753bad9fa7@mail.sarai.net> Aditya Raj Kaul. I have no quarrel with your forwarding the text that you did, ostensibly written by 'Pagal Patrakar'. As a piece of juvenilia it will become part of the evidence of the testosterone fuelled intellectual bankruptcy of the standard Indian Nationalist response to A.Roy. One minor point, but a point, I still think that needs to be made. Amongst the wisecracks that liberally pepper this 'open letter' is one that reveals a great deal about the writer. I quote, from Pagal Patrakar - "What the fuck is a “Dalit soldier” with a “grave”? I thought Dalits existed only within Hinduism and Sikhism, where there are no graves." A. Dalits do not exist only within the Hindu and Sikh fold. A very significant section of Dalits identify themselves, in emulation of Ambedkar, (and in recovery of ancestral memories) as Buddhists. And no, Buddhism is not a minor branch of the greater Hindu family. There is a credible argument (not necessarily one I share in entirety) that says that the doxa of much of Hinduism as we know it today, is a weak intellectual response (backed by muscle power) to the moral and intellectual challenge held out by Buddhism to a caste-ridden social order. There are also significant numbers of Christians and Muslims who identify themselves as 'Dalits'. B. Even amongst Dalits who are nominally Hindu, burial, not cremation, is the standard practice, (for most dalit communities) and this has partly, though not entirely, to do with the untouchability question. Because, to perform the last rites by cremation of a dalit is to endow them with a ritual purification that caste Hinduism is generally reluctant to offer. Incidentally, the 'Brahmins' (ironically called 'Maha Brahmins') who perform the cremation rites of upper caste are also usually considered to be 'untouchables'by those they serve. That the writer you quote laughs off the question of 'Dalit' graves, with, I daresay, a typical edge of Savarna arrogance and ignorance only goes to show that he has probably never entered a dalit neighbourhood, let alone let his shadow be caste on a dalit graveyard. This only confirms my view that the pomp and circumstance of much of Indian nationalism today is based on an actual ignorance of the realities of the lives of the majority of Indians. Perhaps the reason why someone like Arundhati Roy can no longer bear to share in this kind of nationalist hysteria is because she knows a great deal more about the lives of the majority of the Indian people than those who constantly speak in their name. Shuddha On Sat, 30 Oct 2010 16:51:14 +0530 Venugopalan K M wrote > In bad taste, and also sexist! > (Condolence) > Like to share (the) 'only' worry here: why should one feel this > t..r...a....s.....h worth writing/reading/sharing ?! > > Oct 27, 2010 at 8:44 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > > > An open letter to Arundhati Roy > > > > October 27, 2010< > > http://blog.fakingnews.com/2010/10/an-open-letter-to-arundhati-roy/> > > by Pagal Patrakar > > > > Link - http://blog.fakingnews.com/2010/10/an-open-letter-to-arundhati-roy/ > > > > Hey woman, > > > > Congrats, you are back in news! You were trending on Twitter and featured > > in > > Google trends. And thanks, you made many guys look up dictionary.com to > > understand what sedition meant. You are really of some use! > > > > Well, I read your > > statement< > > > > http://www.hindustantimes.com/Arundhati-s-statement-from-Srinagar-Full-text/A > > rticle1-618034.aspx > > >, > > and I loved it because it was not a fucking 30,000 words essay! Anyway, I > > had some reactions, please find them below (in bold and in red, adjectives > > that you prefer?): > > > > Kashmir, Oct. 26:* *I write this from Srinagar, Kashmir. *(Wonderful, you > > are going places woman, wished you had cared to write something from Bihar > > or UP; people are suffering due to neglect and bad politics there too, but > > wait, stay where you are.)* This morning’s papers say that I may be > > arrested > > on charges of sedition for what I have said at recent public meetings on > > Kashmir. *(LOL! You read and believe newspapers? But I guess that’s what > > you do when you wake up in the morning – take up a newspaper and find if > > your name appears anywhere. If not, you plan how it can.)* I said what > > millions of people here say every day. *(Millions of people say benc**d in > > India every day, that doesn’t sanction that term any “social > > acceptance”)* > > I > > said what I, as well as other commentators, have written and said for > > years. > > *(Absolutely, you have NEVER said or written anything NEW. You just pick up > > issues, after reading the morning newspapers, and join the > > bandwagon.)*Anybody who cares to read the transcripts of my speeches > > will see that they > > were fundamentally a call for justice. *(Sorry, I didn’t really care to > > read > > the transcript of your speeches. Can you make them a bit shorter? I’ve an > > attention span problem.)* I spoke about justice for the people of Kashmir > > who live under one of the most brutal military occupations in the world; > > *(Oh, > > Kashmir is an area under military occupation? Thanks, will update my > > general > > knowledge and Wikimapia, but wait, how come you were allowed there? Don’t > > all democratic rights cease to exist in an area under military occupation? > > Or were you an “embedded activist” like those embedded journalists of CNN > > in > > Iraq during the Gulf War?)* for Kashmiri Pandits who live out the tragedy > > of > > having been driven out of their homeland; *(Really? Or are you fucking > > kidding me?)* for Dalit soldiers killed in Kashmir whose graves I visited > > on > > garbage heaps in their villages in Cuddalore; *(What the fuck is a “Dalit > > soldier” with a “grave”? I thought Dalits existed only within > > Hinduism and > > Sikhism, where there are no graves. Oh okay, next you are writing a 300,000 > > essay on why Dalits are neither Hindu/Sikh/Christian/Muslim nor Indian, and > > why the need justice and liberty from the tyrannous Brahminical Indian > > state?)* for the Indian poor who pay the price of this occupation in > > material ways and who are now learning to live in the terror of what is > > becoming a police state. *(Oh great, so this whole country is under some > > kind of occupation – police state – what the fuck, you opened my eyes, > > where > > is the red flag?)* > > > > Yesterday I traveled to Shopian, the apple-town in South Kashmir which had > > remained closed for 47 days last year in protest against the brutal rape > > and > > murder of Asiya and Nilofer, the young women whose bodies were found in a > > shallow stream near their homes and whose murderers have still not been > > brought to justice. *(Yes, “last year”, and you are visiting the place > > “now” > > because your heart bleeds for a common Kashmiri.) * I met Shakeel, who is > > Nilofer’s husband and Asiya’s brother. *(Wait a minute; you were also in > > Delhi a couple of weeks back. Did you meet any Kashmiri Pandit, for whom > > you > > claimed to be seeking justice in the earlier paragraph?)* We sat in a > > circle > > of people crazed with grief and anger who had lost hope that they would > > ever > > get insaf — justice — from India, and now believed that Azadi — freedom — > > was their only hope. *(Have you seen the Bollywood movie Gulaal? You can > > sit in such circles almost in each part of this country and listen to cries > > of Azadi from imagined powers. There are Brahmins in this country, whom you > > think control everything, who feel “trapped” in the modern state that is > > implementing reservations for everyone except them.)* I met young stone > > pelters who had been shot through their eyes. *(Did you meet that Indian > > policeman who lost his eye after a 5 kg stone hit his eye?) * I traveled > > with a young man who told me how three of his friends, teenagers in > > Anantnag > > district, had been taken into custody and had their finger-nails pulled out > > as punishment for throwing stones. *(I once traveled with a Hindu in > > Ahmedabad, who told me how Muslims had created an “acid pool” in “their > > area” and used to throw Hindus in them during riots; there have been many > > riots in Ahmedabad, not just during 2002, for your kind information. Of > > course I didn’t believe him and went out to write an essay or even a fake > > news article. I don’t believe people easily and form opinions. If the > > state > > can’t be trusted blindly, that doesn’t mean I’d trust every other > > non-state > > actor blindly. Oh, non-state actor!)* > > > > In the papers some have accused me of giving ‘hate-speeches’, of wanting > > India to break up. *(Yes, there are idiots who take you seriously.)* On > > the > > contrary, what I say comes from love and pride. *(ROFLMAO!)* It comes from > > not wanting people to be killed, raped, imprisoned or have their > > finger-nails pulled out in order to force them to say they are Indians. > > *(But > > you are fine and your conscience is not disturbed if someone does the same > > to people and force them to say that they are NOT Indians?)* It comes from > > wanting to live in a society that is striving to be a just one. *(“just” > > one > > or “just one”? People like you are surely not going to let this society > > be > > “just one”. It would be broken into Dalits, Tribals, Muslims, Brahmins, > > Christians, Poor, Rich, Women, etc. I want my society and country to be > > “just one” for god’s sake!)* Pity the nation that has to silence its > > writers > > for speaking their minds. *(Yes, yes, pity the nation that produces such > > writers. Today I’m proud of Chetan Bhagat, seriously.)* Pity the nation > > that > > needs to jail those who ask for justice, while communal killers, mass > > murderers, corporate scamsters, looters, rapists, and those who prey on the > > poorest of the poor, roam free. *(Yes, I’d pity the nation only if you > > were > > “actually” jailed, and you won’t be, dear, because this is a country that > > doesn’t need your pity.)* > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > -- > > > You cannot build anything on the foundations of caste. You cannot build up a > nation, you cannot build up a morality. Anything that you will build on the > foundations of caste will crack and will never be a whole. > -AMBEDKAR > > > > http://venukm.blogspot.com > > http://www.shelfari.com/kmvenuannur > > http://kmvenuannur.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From taraprakash at gmail.com Sat Oct 30 22:22:22 2010 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 12:52:22 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] WHO IS AFRAID OF ARUNDHATI ROY? References: Message-ID: <011A4D8580E642788C0CA251DB89B39D@tara> How many do you have to offer? How about using some to scratch the part of your body that starts itching when you hear Sonia's saner questions, you villain of "Father Son and Holy War?" If we go in to the nuances of your unsolicited offers it is worse suggestion than anyone made on Ms. Roy. And yet Gods haven't said a word. Isn't it true now that you get admonished only if you are espousing a different view, if you are throwing up the same stuff as entrenched you can get away with murder on this list? Please Sonia don't give up because of these rude nationalists and masculinist delinquents. We need a true perspective, not polluted by those who make money for speaking in favor of one of the 2 sides. You just asked a question and these men's backsides went on fire. Amazing. Sorry, but I can't stand those who can't stand the critique. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aditya Raj Baul" To: "reader-list" Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2010 1:16 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] WHO IS AFRAID OF ARUNDHATI ROY? > awwww poor girl you never understand questions. would you like another > candy? > > On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 10:41 AM, SJabbar wrote: >> Dear Parvaiz, >> I don't understand your big question. Do you not make a distinction >> between >> the Kashmiri judiciary and the Indian judiciary, and between the IPC and >> the >> RPC? Please clarify. >> Sincerely, >> Sonia >> >> >> >> On 30/10/10 9:32 AM, "Parvaiz Bukhari" wrote: >> >>> Samvit this is a big question you must ask ypourself....why has the >>> indian >> judiciary failed to "perform" in Kashmir unlike >> elsewhere in the >>> examples u give? Or, you are saying the judiciary is also >> run by the >>> separatists? >> >> On 30 October 2010 09:19, Samvit wrote: >> >>> >>> Parvaiz, >>> The fact of the matter is that Indian media does not parrot the >>> language of >>> the fanatics (either hindu or muslim) unlike the "Greater >>> Kashmirs" of the >>> Valley where the word Pandit is an anathema. Try and pick >>> up any magazine or >>> newspaper from the Valley and all they do it glorify >>> >>> separatism/terrorism/extremism. It seems they have become the new towers >>> of >>> >>> capitalistic Kashmir where money is the opium of the "classes". Selling >>> a >>> >>> newspaper is as good as selling a toothbrush. >>> Indian judiciary, over the >>> years has done a good (if not excellent) job and >>> convicted people in all >>> kinds of crimes. An example being the case against >>> the former Gujarat Home >>> Minister Amit Shah. In Kashmir not a single case >>> against the Pandits has >>> seen the light of the day. Bitta Karata is out in >>> the open. Perhaps you >>> should have written a piece about him. So ironical you >>> talk about >>> "surviving". >>> >>> Here, the opressor is trying to prove that he is the >>> oppressed. >>> >>> People may write an epic of Gilgamish in Arundhati's honor but >>> then it will >>> be as slanderous as the courteisns who used to call Aurangzeb- >>> "Oh, king of >>> kings, oh pinnacle of the mercy........." >>> -Samvit >>> >>> >>> On >>> Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 8:31 AM, Parvaiz Bukhari >> > >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Anxiously waiting for the fear to spread more so that more may >>> survive >>>> Indian politicians, media and the court historians of the >>> day... >>>> >>>> On 30 October 2010 05:46, Pheeta Ram >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> > Some people on this list are afraid of 'Arundhati Roy - the >>> joke' ( BTW, >>>> a >>>> > joke is not a joke) because they are afraid of laughing >>> for obvious >>>> > reasons: >>>> > >>>> > a) they are afraid because some other >>> people simply love her and are not >>>> > afraid to confess that >>>> > b) they >>> are afraid because she used to visit some upper-class gym in >>>> skimpy >>>> > >>> clothing >>>> > c) they are afraid because she married twice and is finally >>> officially >>>> > single >>>> > d) they are afraid because she supports maoists >>> and for them maoist is a >>>> > term of abuse >>>> > e) they are afraid because >>> she supports the Aazadi of Kashmiri people >>>> from >>>> > the repressive Indian >>> state >>>> > f) they are afraid because she writes bewitchingly beautiful prose >>> for >>>> > subversive, anti-national purposes >>>> > g) they are afraid because >>> they think she is publicity hungry >>>> > h) they are afraid because she is some >>> day certainly going to win the >>>> Nobel >>>> > Prize >>>> > i) they are afraid >>> because she is simply beautiful in those curly hair >>>> and >>>> > that mellow >>> childlike voice; and those mesmerizingly wondrous eyes which >>>> > are >>>> > not >>> afraid to sing for you the serenades of freedom >>>> > j) they are afraid >>> because they cannot NOTREAD what she writes in a 32 >>>> page >>>> > long essay >>> after walking with the comrades in the jungles of Dantewada >>>> > k) they are >>> afraid because the Indian state is now terribly scared of >>>> > putting her in >>> jail for that shall certainly fetch her the Nobel Prize >>>> and >>>> > win >>> Kashmir the Aazadi >>>> > l) they are afraid because she shared dais with SASG >>> and made him >>>> realize >>>> > that Kashmiris are not alone in their struggle >>> and also that Kashmiris >>>> also >>>> > need to know that there is a wider world >>> surrounding them that is also >>>> > struggling and that they need to >>> acknowledge it and support it; and that >>>> > the >>>> > Kashmiris have the >>> histories of India and Pakistan ( both collective and >>>> > separate) before >>> them to take strict lessons from, to fashion a >>>> > nation-state >>>> > that >>> does justice to the sacrifices of the people who have fought, are >>>> > >>> fighting and shall continue fighting for Kashmir; and that all struggles >>>> > >>> against the tyrant are essentially connected >>>> > m)they are afraid because >>> she hops from one issue to another ( Narmada >>>> > >>Maoists>>Kashmir>>which >>> next?) >>>> > n) they are afraid because she goes against their normative >>> definitions >>>> of >>>> > beauty and gender >>>> > o) they are afraid because 'even >>> a rickshawala' is praising her saying >>>> that >>>> > she is a 'pseudo >>> intellectual' (?) (Isn't it a pity that a rickshawala >>>> of >>>> > such a >>> potential is not on the sarai list?). >>>> > p) they are afraid because the >>> Indian media -the stooges of Indian state >>>> - >>>> > don't know what to do with >>> her (even supremely articulate ones from the >>>> > media (like Karan Thapar) >>> make an ass of themselves while interviewing >>>> her) >>>> > q) they are afraid >>> because she spits on their faces and is not wee bit >>>> > apologetic about it >>> because she knows that they deserve it and that its >>>> her >>>> > duty to do >>> that >>>> > r) they are afraid because she is fast becoming a role model for >>> the >>>> > beautiful, well-connected upper-class convent educated women who >>> are >>>> > devouring her from cover to cover secretively like mills-and-boons >>> even >>>> in >>>> > their bathrooms ( so that their businessmen fathers and social >>> butterfly >>>> > mothers don't catch them reading her) and dreaming about being >>> her in >>>> their >>>> > fantasy worlds (one of them confessed to me) ( in this >>> manner the >>>> > phenomenon >>>> > called Arundhati becomes a past-master in >>> reverse engineering) >>>> > s) they are afraid because she has made them realize >>> that capitalism is >>>> > like >>>> > a deadly virus that shall one day surely eat >>> itself away >>>> > t) they are afraid because she thinks with a beautiful heart >>> (hence a >>>> > 'pseudo-intellectual') >>>> > u) they are afraid because she >>> converts "aesthetics of deferral" ( one >>>> > scourge that afflicts most of the >>> 'intellectuals' of todays world) into >>>> a >>>> > beautiful "aestheto-ethics of >>> arrival", no mean feat i should say >>>> > v) they are afraid because they >>> unconsciously compete with her and >>>> finding >>>> > her a sure winner are >>> afraid to take the challenge >>>> > w) they are afraid because she challenges >>> the very rationale of their >>>> being >>>> > and becoming >>>> > x) they are afraid >>> because she happens to be a woman (like them) >>>> > y) they are afraid because >>> the Indian state has done a beautiful job in >>>> > bringing them up on a steady >>> diet of 'nationalist' propaganda through >>>> first >>>> > beginning with NCERT >>> textbooks in brainwashing saloons called 'Schools' >>>> ( >>>> > the reason behind >>> the popularity of Bollywood and Cricket) >>>> > z) they are afraid because >>> despite their manifest hate for her they have >>>> > serious doubts that some >>> where down there they love her too. >>>> > ... >>>> > >>>> > BTW, who is afraid of >>> what comes after Z? Jump the gun please. >>>> > >>> _________________________________________ >>>> > reader-list: an open discussion >>> list on media and the city. >>>> > Critiques & Collaborations >>>> > To subscribe: >>> send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> > subscribe in the >>> subject header. >>>> > To unsubscribe: >>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> > List archive: >>> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> >>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion >>> list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: >>> send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> subscribe in the >>> subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: >>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: >>> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Samvit >>> Rawal >>> 9422037853 >>> >>> ----------------------------------------------------------- >>> To err is human; >>> to forgive, infrequent. >>> - Franklin P. >>> Adams >>> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open >>> discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To >>> subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe >>> in >>> the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: >>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: >>> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From shuddha at sarai.net Sat Oct 30 22:32:20 2010 From: shuddha at sarai.net (shuddha at sarai.net) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 22:32:20 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Great Indian Love Affair With Censorship - by - Ashis Nandy Message-ID: <91617b4f00ffc1af9ab4e770beefee73@mail.sarai.net> Dear All, Here is an excellent piece by Ashis Nandy in Outlook on the current 'sedition' question that is exercising a lot of people on this list. You will find in it, an astute portrait of the patriotic hot-heads who hyperventilate on this list and display their intolerance with depressing regularity. best Shuddha ----------- The Great Indian Love Affair With Censorship Ashis Nandy, in Outlook http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?267719 "Patriotism,” Samuel Johnson said nearly 250 years ago, “is the last refuge of a scoundrel.” These days in India, the adage can be safely applied to nationalism. There is no other explanation of the threat to arrest and try Arundhati Roy on charges of sedition for what she said at a public meeting on Kashmir, where Syed Ali Geelani too spoke. I was not there at the meeting, but I have read her moving statement defending herself afterwards. I feel both proud and humbled by it. I am a psychologist and political analyst, handicapped by my vocation; I could not have put the case against censorship so starkly and elegantly. What she has said is simultaneously a plea for a more democratic India and a more humane future for Indians. I faced a similar situation a couple of years ago, when I wrote a column in the Times of India on the long-term cultural consequences of the anti-Muslim pogrom in 2002. It was a sharp attack on Gujarat’s changing middle-class culture. I was served summons for inciting communal hatred. I had to take anticipatory bail from the Supreme Court and get the police summons quashed. The case, however, goes on, even though the Supreme Court, while granting me anticipatory bail, said it found nothing objectionable in the article. The editor of the Ahmedabad edition of the Times of India was less fortunate. He was charged with sedition. I shall be surprised if the charges of sedition against Arundhati are taken to their logical conclusion. Geelani is already facing more than a hundred cases of sedition, so one more probably won’t make a difference to him. Indeed, the government may fall back on time-tested traditions and negotiate with recalcitrant opponents through income-tax laws. People never fully trusted the income-tax officials; now they will distrust them the way they distrust the cbi. In the meanwhile, we have made fools of ourselves in front of the whole world. All this because some protesters demonstrated at the meeting that Arundhati and Geelani addressed! Yet, I hear from those who were present at the meeting that Geelani did not once utter the word “secession”, and even went so far as to give a soft definition of azadi. By all accounts, he put forward a rather moderate agenda. Was it his way of sending a message to the government of India? How much of it was cold-blooded public relations, how much a clever play with political possibilities in Kashmir? We shall never know, just because most of those who pass as politicians today and our knowledge-proof babus have proved themselves incapable of understanding the subtleties of public communication. They are not literate enough to know what role free speech and free press play in an open society, not only in keeping the society open but also in serious statecraft. In the meanwhile, it has become dangerous to demand a more compassionate and humane society, for that has come to mean a serious criticism of contemporary India and those who run it. Such criticism is being redefined as anti-national and divisive. In the case of Arundhati, it is of course the BJP that is setting the pace of public debate and pleading for censorship. But I must hasten to add that the Congress looks unwilling to lose the race. It seems keen to prove that it is more nationalist than the BJP. It is the hearts and minds of the new middle class—those who have come up in the last two decades from almost nowhere and are middle class by virtue of having money rather than middle-class values—that both parties are after. This new middle class wants to give meaning to their hollow life through a violent, nineteenth-century version of European-style ‘nationalism’. They want to prove—to others as well as to themselves—that they have a stake in the system, that they have arrived. They are afraid that the slightest erosion in the legitimacy of their particularly nasty version of nationalism will jeopardise their new-found social status and political clout. They are willing to fight to the last Indian for the glory of Mother India as long as they themselves are not conscripted to do so and they can see, safely and comfortably in their drawing rooms, Indian nationalism unfolding the way a violent Bombay film unfolds on their television screens. 

Hence the bitterness and intolerance, not only towards Arundhati Roy, but also towards all other spoilsports who defy the mainstream imagination of India and its nationalism. Even Gandhians fighting for their cause non-violently are not spared. Himangshu Kumar’s ashram at Dantewada has been destroyed not by the Maoists but by the police. I would have thought that writers and artists would be exempt from censorship in an open society. As we well know, they are not. The CPI(M) and the Congress ganged up to shut up Taslima Nasreen by saying she was not an Indian. As though if you are a non-Indian in India, your rights don’t have to be governed by the Constitution of India! Democracy has created a middle class, most of whom are not adequately socialised to norms vital to creativity and innovativeness in an open society.   The trend of harassing political dissenters for their “seditious” writings and actions started early. It started with the breakdown of consensus on national interest in the mid-’70s. Indira Gandhi imposed Emergency and introduced serious censorship and surveillance, she claimed, to protect national interest, democracy and development. (She had foresight, for though she included development in her list, it took another two decades for the consensus on development to break down.) The difference between the 1970s and the first decade of the 21st century is that millions are now acting out their dissent and speaking out of their radical differences with mainstream public opinion. The whole tribal movement—wrongly called the Naxal movement, because the Naxals have taken advantage of the tribal problem—is an example of this. There are times when a national consensus is neither possible nor desirable. The best one can do is to contain the violence and negotiate with those who act out their dissent. That may not be easy in the case of the Kashmiris because their trust in us is now close to zero. Psychologically speaking, the Kashmiris are already outside India and will remain there for at least two generations. The random killings, rapes, torture and the other innovative atrocities have brutalised their society and turned them into a traumatised lot. If you think this is too harsh, read between the lines of psychotherapist Shobhna Sonpar’s report on Kashmir. What is it about the culture of Indian politics today that it allows us to opt for a version of nationalism that is so brutal, self-certain and chauvinist? Have we been so brutalised ourselves that we have become totally numb to the suffering around us? What is this concept of Indian unity that forces us to support police atrocities and torture? How can a democratic government, knowing fully what its police, paramilitary and army is capable of doing, resist signing the international covenant on torture? How can we, sixty years after independence, countenance encounter deaths? Could these practices have survived so long and become institutionalised if we had a large enough section of India’s much-vaunted middle class fully sensitive to the demands of democracy? The answers to these questions are not pleasant. We know things could not have come to this pass if those who are or should be alert to these issues in the intelligentsia, media, artistic community had done their job. Here I think the changing nature of the Indian middle class has not been a help. We are proud of our democracy—the consensus on democracy still survives in India—but unaware of a crucial paradox in which we are caught. The democratic process has created a new middle class, a large section of which is not adequately socialised to democratic norms in sectors not vital to the survival of democratic politics but vital to creativity and innovativeness in an open society. The thoughtless, non-self-critical ultra-nationalism, intolerant of anyone opposed to the mainstream public opinion, is shared neither by the poor nor the more settled middle class. Ordinary Indians, accustomed as they are to living with mind-boggling diversity, social and cultural, have no problem with political diversity. Neither does the settled middle class. Bankim Chandra Chattopadhyay, for instance, wrote an essay savaging the middle class in mid-nineteenth century. We had to study this in our school and it has remained a prescribed text in Bengal for more than a century. Today you cannot introduce such a text in much of India without probably precipitating a political controversy and demands for censorship. Recently, at a lecture organised by the Information Commission of India, I claimed that the future of censorship and surveillance in India was very bright. It’s not only the government that loves it but a very large section of middle-class India too would like to silence writers, artists, playwrights, scholars and thinkers they do not like. In their attempt to become a globalised middle class, they are willing to change their dress, food habits and language but not their love for censorship. We should thank our stars that there still are people in our midst—editors, political activists, NGOs, lawyers and judges—to whom freedom of speech is neither a value peripheral to the real concerns of Indian democracy nor a bourgeois virtue but a clue to our survival as a civilised society. From ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de Sat Oct 30 23:24:26 2010 From: ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de (Britta Ohm) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 19:54:26 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] The Great Indian Love Affair With Censorship - by - Ashis Nandy In-Reply-To: <91617b4f00ffc1af9ab4e770beefee73@mail.sarai.net> References: <91617b4f00ffc1af9ab4e770beefee73@mail.sarai.net> Message-ID: <46B754DA-2809-4ADA-A92E-3116913F32AC@zedat.fu-berlin.de> Well well, I rather find it quite remarkable how Nandy, even if with the right intentions, tries to now sail with those he has attacked for so long, because he suddenly realises that his own freedom of speech might be in danger. The middle class he has routinely made the focus of his criticism in the name of religion and people's authenticity used to be precisely the 'settled middle class' he now wishes to side with, namely the traditional secular middle class. The new middle class and its emergent nationalism is what has not only escaped his analysis for too long but what has in many respects fueled his arguments. His recent piece 'Closing the Debate on Secularism: A Personal Statement?' in Dingwaney Needham/Sunder Rajan's book reads like the exact opposite of what he is propounding here. It would be interesting if he made the effort to theorise the contradictions in his own analysis, but just swinging between positions in the probable hope that nobody will notice in the face of his 'important voice' smells too much of opportunism to be convincing. best -- Britta Am 30.10.2010 um 19:02 schrieb shuddha at sarai.net: > Dear All, > > Here is an excellent piece by Ashis Nandy in Outlook on the current 'sedition' > question that is exercising a lot of people on this list. You will find in it, > an astute portrait of the patriotic hot-heads who hyperventilate on this list > and display their intolerance with depressing regularity. > > best > > Shuddha > ----------- > > The Great Indian Love Affair With Censorship > Ashis Nandy, in Outlook > http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?267719 > > "Patriotism,” Samuel Johnson said nearly 250 years ago, “is the last refuge > of a scoundrel.” These days in India, the adage can be safely applied to > nationalism. There is no other explanation of the threat to arrest and try > Arundhati Roy on charges of sedition for what she said at a public meeting on > Kashmir, where Syed Ali Geelani too spoke. I was not there at the meeting, but > I have read her moving statement defending herself afterwards. I feel both > proud and humbled by it. I am a psychologist and political analyst, handicapped > by my vocation; I could not have put the case against censorship so starkly and > elegantly. What she has said is simultaneously a plea for a more democratic > India and a more humane future for Indians. > > I faced a similar situation a couple of years ago, when I wrote a column in the > Times of India on the long-term cultural consequences of the anti-Muslim pogrom > in 2002. It was a sharp attack on Gujarat’s changing middle-class culture. I > was served summons for inciting communal hatred. I had to take anticipatory > bail from the Supreme Court and get the police summons quashed. The case, > however, goes on, even though the Supreme Court, while granting me anticipatory > bail, said it found nothing objectionable in the article. The editor of the > Ahmedabad edition of the Times of India was less fortunate. He was charged with > sedition. > > I shall be surprised if the charges of sedition against Arundhati are taken to > their logical conclusion. Geelani is already facing more than a hundred cases > of sedition, so one more probably won’t make a difference to him. Indeed, the > government may fall back on time-tested traditions and negotiate with > recalcitrant opponents through income-tax laws. People never fully trusted the > income-tax officials; now they will distrust them the way they distrust the > cbi. > > In the meanwhile, we have made fools of ourselves in front of the whole world. > All this because some protesters demonstrated at the meeting that Arundhati and > Geelani addressed! Yet, I hear from those who were present at the meeting that > Geelani did not once utter the word “secession”, and even went so far as to > give a soft definition of azadi. By all accounts, he put forward a rather > moderate agenda. Was it his way of sending a message to the government of > India? How much of it was cold-blooded public relations, how much a clever play > with political possibilities in Kashmir? > > We shall never know, just because most of those who pass as politicians today > and our knowledge-proof babus have proved themselves incapable of understanding > the subtleties of public communication. They are not literate enough to know > what role free speech and free press play in an open society, not only in > keeping the society open but also in serious statecraft. In the meanwhile, it > has become dangerous to demand a more compassionate and humane society, for > that has come to mean a serious criticism of contemporary India and those who > run it. Such criticism is being redefined as anti-national and divisive. In the > case of Arundhati, it is of course the BJP that is setting the pace of public > debate and pleading for censorship. But I must hasten to add that the Congress > looks unwilling to lose the race. It seems keen to prove that it is more > nationalist than the BJP. > > It is the hearts and minds of the new middle class—those who have come up in > the last two decades from almost nowhere and are middle class by virtue of > having money rather than middle-class values—that both parties are after. > This new middle class wants to give meaning to their hollow life through a > violent, nineteenth-century version of European-style ‘nationalism’. They > want to prove—to others as well as to themselves—that they have a stake in > the system, that they have arrived. They are afraid that the slightest erosion > in the legitimacy of their particularly nasty version of nationalism will > jeopardise their new-found social status and political clout. They are willing > to fight to the last Indian for the glory of Mother India as long as they > themselves are not conscripted to do so and they can see, safely and > comfortably in their drawing rooms, Indian nationalism unfolding the way a > violent Bombay film unfolds on their television screens. > > Hence the > bitterness and intolerance, not only towards Arundhati Roy, but also towards > all other spoilsports who defy the mainstream imagination of India and its > nationalism. Even Gandhians fighting for their cause non-violently are not > spared. Himangshu Kumar’s ashram at Dantewada has been destroyed not by the > Maoists but by the police. I would have thought that writers and artists would > be exempt from censorship in an open society. As we well know, they are not. > The CPI(M) and the Congress ganged up to shut up Taslima Nasreen by saying she > was not an Indian. As though if you are a non-Indian in India, your rights > don’t have to be governed by the Constitution of India! > > > Democracy has created a middle class, most of whom are not adequately > socialised to norms vital to creativity and innovativeness in an open society. > > > The trend of harassing political dissenters for their “seditious” writings > and actions started early. It started with the breakdown of consensus on > national interest in the mid-’70s. Indira Gandhi imposed Emergency and > introduced serious censorship and surveillance, she claimed, to protect > national interest, democracy and development. (She had foresight, for though > she included development in her list, it took another two decades for the > consensus on development to break down.) The difference between the 1970s and > the first decade of the 21st century is that millions are now acting out their > dissent and speaking out of their radical differences with mainstream public > opinion. The whole tribal movement—wrongly called the Naxal movement, because > the Naxals have taken advantage of the tribal problem—is an example of this. > There are times when a national consensus is neither possible nor desirable. > The best one can do is to contain the violence and negotiate with those who act > out their dissent. That may not be easy in the case of the Kashmiris because > their trust in us is now close to zero. Psychologically speaking, the Kashmiris > are already outside India and will remain there for at least two generations. > The random killings, rapes, torture and the other innovative atrocities have > brutalised their society and turned them into a traumatised lot. If you think > this is too harsh, read between the lines of psychotherapist Shobhna Sonpar’s > report on Kashmir. > > What is it about the culture of Indian politics today that it allows us to opt > for a version of nationalism that is so brutal, self-certain and chauvinist? > Have we been so brutalised ourselves that we have become totally numb to the > suffering around us? What is this concept of Indian unity that forces us to > support police atrocities and torture? How can a democratic government, knowing > fully what its police, paramilitary and army is capable of doing, resist signing > the international covenant on torture? How can we, sixty years after > independence, countenance encounter deaths? Could these practices have survived > so long and become institutionalised if we had a large enough section of > India’s much-vaunted middle class fully sensitive to the demands of > democracy? > > The answers to these questions are not pleasant. We know things could not have > come to this pass if those who are or should be alert to these issues in the > intelligentsia, media, artistic community had done their job. Here I think the > changing nature of the Indian middle class has not been a help. > We are proud of our democracy—the consensus on democracy still survives in > India—but unaware of a crucial paradox in which we are caught. The democratic > process has created a new middle class, a large section of which is not > adequately socialised to democratic norms in sectors not vital to the survival > of democratic politics but vital to creativity and innovativeness in an open > society. The thoughtless, non-self-critical ultra-nationalism, intolerant of > anyone opposed to the mainstream public opinion, is shared neither by the poor > nor the more settled middle class. Ordinary Indians, accustomed as they are to > living with mind-boggling diversity, social and cultural, have no problem with > political diversity. Neither does the settled middle class. > > Bankim Chandra Chattopadhyay, for instance, wrote an essay savaging the middle > class in mid-nineteenth century. We had to study this in our school and it has > remained a prescribed text in Bengal for more than a century. Today you cannot > introduce such a text in much of India without probably precipitating a > political controversy and demands for censorship. > > Recently, at a lecture organised by the Information Commission of India, I > claimed that the future of censorship and surveillance in India was very > bright. It’s not only the government that loves it but a very large section > of middle-class India too would like to silence writers, artists, playwrights, > scholars and thinkers they do not like. In their attempt to become a globalised > middle class, they are willing to change their dress, food habits and language > but not their love for censorship. We should thank our stars that there still > are people in our midst—editors, political activists, NGOs, lawyers and > judges—to whom freedom of speech is neither a value peripheral to the real > concerns of Indian democracy nor a bourgeois virtue but a clue to our survival > as a civilised society. > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________ Dr. Britta Ohm Institute of Social Anthropology University of Bern Laengassstr. 49a 3012 Bern Switzerland +41-(0)31-631 8995 (main office) +41-(0)31-631 5373 (direct line) britta.ohm at anthro.unibe.ch Solmsstr. 36 10961 Berlin Germany +49-(0)30-69507155 ohm at zedat.fu-berlin.de From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sun Oct 31 01:56:21 2010 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 01:56:21 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Private Life of Vinod Sehgal Message-ID: The Private Life of Vinod Sehgal *The battle of a ghazal singer to rediscover himself and his art away from the spotlight by Rahul Pandita Open Magazine* *Link* - http://www.openthemagazine.com/article/art-culture/the-private-life-of-vinod-sehgal AMBALA -- Inside a moss-ridden room in a seedy hotel in Ambala, Haryana, Vinod Sehgal holds a cigarette and bottle of beer in one hand and his mobile phone in another. The room reeks of dampness and love-making. Apparently, the hotel is used mostly by couples in need of snatches of privacy to acquaint themselves with each others’ bodies. The sound effects right now, though, are incongruous—noisy fighter planes flying overhead from a nearby Air Force base. “Yes, yes, I know, I am not drinking at all,” Sehgal assures his wife over the phone in response to an agitated voice that almost jumps out of it. “For years,” he says a little later, “I have felt *ehsaas-e-kamtari* towards her.” It’s an Urdu phrase for an inferiority complex, but Sehgal means his own helplessness in doing much for his wife. “But wives also need to understand an artiste’s temperament if they are married to one,” he adds, taking a long puff of his Wills Navy Cut. NATURE’S OWN DEVICES Chances are you wouldn’t have heard of Vinod Sehgal. But to anyone familiar with the crests and troughs of *ghazal* singing, Sehgal’s name is more than a name, it is a crescendo that few could achieve. He is a star who almost turned into a supernova much too early, crumpling inwards before his time, leaving an afterglow that’s everlasting. Those who have heard his *ghazal*s like *Shaayar-e-fitrat hun mein*, from an album called *Kahkashan*, don’t care much about what he could have been. For such fans, his voice and music are enough. In a way, Vinod Sehgal’s own life song is the one he sang for Gulzar’s *Maachis: Chhod aaye hum woh galiyan*. It was about seven years ago that he returned to his hometown Ambala after struggling in Mumbai for over 35 years, a period long enough to see the music industry from close quarters. “I have had music directors tell me in the 70s that in the next two years they’d be the biggest thing in music,” he recalls, “Three decades later, some of them just earn their livelihood by music tuitions for uninterested daughters of wealthy businessmen. And from evening till midnight, they just drink.” At least he is still composing music. There are small serials on TV whose title songs he has composed. He still gets invited for private shows by fans. Some of them get drunk on his voice more than alcohol. He is, after all, ‘*Shaayar-e-fitrat*’: a poet by nature’s own command. “I am established, *yaar*. I’ve no regrets. You see, God cannot only exist on Pali Hill,” he says, referring to a Mumbai locality of Bollywood’s who’s who. Vinod Sehgal remembers every moment of his life. “You know *Shayaar-e-fitrat hun mein*, how I sang it?” He tells the story. It was the late 1980s, and he’d returned to Ambala depressed since he couldn’t find any work in Bombay. For days and days, he wouldn’t talk to anyone. It went on for three months. Until, one day, he got a call from *ghazal* maestro Jagjit Singh, also his mentor in some ways. “Come over immediately,” he said. It was for the recording of *Kahkashan*, for which Sehgal got to sing *ghazal*s of famous Urdu poets like Jigar Moradabadi and Firaaq Gorakhpuri. Also present in that Bombay studio was Jalal Agha, the late actor, smoking opium in a *chillum*. Just before Sehgal was to record his first song, Agha held the *chillum* out for him and said: “Vinod, *ek* drag *le le* (Vinod, take a drag)”. He refused. “*Laga na, kucch nahin hoga *(Come on, nothing will happen),” persisted Agha. Finally, Sehgal took a drag or two, and in less than 15 minutes, he was on. That is how he recorded his first *ghazal* for that album. It remains a favourite among his fans even today. The second time he was forced back to Ambala, since he couldn’t afford good enough accommodation in Mumbai for his newly-wed wife, was in the 1990s. But then, one fine day, someone turned up at his door from Mumbai, saying Gulzar had been hunting high and low for him. “*Hausla kyun gira liya*? (why have you lost courage?)” he remembers Gulzar asking, before offering him the lead song in his forthcoming film on Punjab militancy, *Maachis*. In the song *Chhod aaye hum*…, sung alongwith such singers as Suresh Wadekar and Hariharan, his voice is especially stirring, and when he sings the lines ‘*Ek andha kuan hai ya, ek band gali si hai*’, you feel yourself staring at an abyss. HARMONY OF HARD TIMES I first met Vinod Sehgal on a balmy evening in Chandigarh in 1996. A college student then, I was lying drenched in sweat staring at a listless fan in my rented room, when I heard beautiful voices singing a nice song from a bad film: *Maine kiye paar saat samandar* from *Rajkumar*. It was the twin daughters (roughly ten then) of the musician family living upstairs. Amazed, I sought them out and implored them for an encore (even now, whenever the power fails, I can’t help being reminded of the song). A few days later, their music-teacher father turned up with another man. “*Pehchaano inko*(recognise him),” he said. “ *Arre bhai*, Vinod Sehgal *hai* (He is Vinod Sehgal).” We knew the man’s work well. In fact, *Kahkashan* would be played in our room in a loop. There were several *ghazal*s in the two-volume set that we thought outshone Jagjit Singh’s own. As my room-mate Kamal rushed off to get soft drinks, I got talking to Sehgal. He told us about this song he had just recorded for Gulzar. “It is from a film called *Maachis*,” he said. In a few minutes, the music teacher brought down his harmonium, and Sehgal sang aloud for us—the song of the bottomless well, the song of the dead end. We left college that year, and two years later, heard that the music teacher had died. After *Maachis*, Vinod Sehgal also disappeared—lost in the abyss he conveyed so searingly, it seemed to us. And now, 14 years later, I had found him again. He was the very same man I had met in my college days. No airs, no dramatics, just wedded to his music. Even if it’s a song for the Haryana Police that he composed recently. Sehgal’s family comes from Sargodha in what’s now Pakistan, and both his father and grandfather used to sing, though not professionally. As a child, his father Sohan Lal Sehgal would run to a nearby *mohalla* of Mirasis—ballad singers. At Partition, the family fled to Delhi, and then was sent to Ambala for rehabilitation. The senior Sehgal worked in India’s Post & Telegraph department, and would encourage Vinod to learn music. As a young boy, Sehgal went to various music teachers to pick up the basics of his sargam. “Those days, the career spectrum ranged from peon to clerk,” Sehgal quips. The family’s financial condition was bad, and he had to work at a cloth shop to supplement the family income. It was around then that Master Anil, who had played the role of actor Dharmendra in the megahit *Phool aur Patthar*, came to Ambala along with his mother to visit relatives. “The whole *mohalla* flocked to see him,” recalls Sehgal. Curious, he went too. There, the neighbourhood kids boasted of Sehgal’s voice. Master Anil’s mother, who was sitting on a chair, knitting, asked him to sing. Sehgal sang a popular Rafi number of those times: *Mere dushman tu meri dosti ko tarse*. She liked it so much that she told him to come to Bombay and stay with them once he grew up a bit. The mother happened to be music maestro Master Acchi Ram’s daughter. Meanwhile, Sehgal would continue working in the cloth shop. But he never let his dream fade. Finally in 1970, Sehgal spoke to his parents, and landed up at Master Anil’s house in Bombay. Initially, Sehgal would visit struggling musicians to seek work. “They would hit the bottle and then ask me to sing till late in the night.” This daily affair got the household worried, and he was ordered back to Ambala. There, the same old fate awaited Sehgal: cloth salesmanship. From Rs 50 a month, his salary rose to Rs 140 a month. And when a writer friend got him to join college, he spent all his time in the music room. ARROW SHOT AGAIN It was at college that Sehgal’s music teacher Chiranji Lal Jigyasu told him of his disciple Hansraj Behl in Bombay who had composed the famous song, *Jahan daal daal par sone ki chidiya karti hai basera*. Sehgal established contact with Behl, and found himself invited back to Bombay. The year was 1975. Sehgal again stayed with Master Anil’s family (“I sent them a telegram from Ambala”), and Behl asked him to become his third assistant director. His first director was S Balbir, the original composer of the famous Punjabi song, *Mein koi jhooth boliyan*. After Balbir’s death in 1976, Sehgal was made first assistant. “I used to sing for big singers to make them understand the composition, after which they sang it,” he reminisces, “And all this while, I would wonder when I would get to sing myself.” He would not have to wait for very long. Serendipity struck. In 1980, Sehgal was introduced to Jagjit Singh, who took a liking to him and helped him record his first-ever song, *Tu kya jaane deewane*, for a film called *Raavan*. It was the same day that Jagjit Singh recorded his legendary *Honthhon se chhoo lo tum, mera geet amar kar doh*. Later, Sehgal got his very own album. It was titled *Jagjit Singh presents Vinod Sehgal*, but did not get very far. New voices were sprouting up all over at the time. After Mohammed Rafi’s death, singers like Shabeer Kumar and Munna Aziz were trying to take on his mantel, even as voices like Kishore Kumar’s made opportunities for newcomers harder to come by. “My whole concentration was on films and not shows,” he says, “And anyway, you need a lot of networking skills to get shows, which I didn’t have.” He got some work in Punjabi films, but that was not enough to get by as a singer. After *Maachis*, Sehgal got a few breaks in offbeat films like *Train to Pakistan* and *Dr Babasaheb Ambedkar*. But Vinod Sehgal was growing older, the opportunities scarcer. Finally, he decided to turn back, and this time, for good. “I also wanted to take care of my parents who were ageing. It was also good that my wife, who felt quite left out in Mumbai, would be closer to her family.” And so he returned. His father passed away in 2006, and his mother last January. In a small colony in Ambala, Vinod Sehgal lives now with his wife who must bear his ‘artistic temperament’. Luckily, he remains optimistic. “I am doing an album of Shiv Kumar Batalvi’s songs,” he says. And another album that includes an entrancing *ghazal* written by Pakistani poet Saleem Qausar. The phone has stopped ringing. The wife has given up. And, in the moss-ridden hotel room that reeks of dampness, Vinod Sehgal begins to sing. “Valve *kholna padta hai *(one has to open one’s valve),” he jokes. And he lets out a sonorous *taan*, followed by Saleem Qausar’s *Dekhna yeh hai kaun bachta hai, teer to ek sa laga hai humein*. Let’s see who survives, go the lyrics, it’s the same arrow that’s hit us both. I think of congruity. I think of couples making love in other rooms… to the sublime sound of Vinod Sehgal’s voice. Surely, God cannot exist only on Pali Hill. From chintan.backups at gmail.com Sun Oct 31 11:09:24 2010 From: chintan.backups at gmail.com (Chintan Girish Modi) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 11:09:24 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Safe and Sensitive Schools Message-ID: From http://www.teacherfoundation.org/index.php/safe-and-sensitive-schools.html The Teacher Foundation has long been concerned with the nature and language of personal interaction in Indian schools – head teachers with teachers, teachers with students and students amongst themselves. These interactions are often marred by harshness of tone, insensitivity towards others’ feelings and a sense of inadequacy in expressing thoughts, ideas and feelings. Authoritarianism and judgment pervade majority of teacher- student interactions in schools across the country. We at TTF, strongly believe that schools need to evolve a system, which fosters the ‘human’ side of student growth and development, besides the academic aspect. The SASS project works toward actioning this positive cultural change in schools. It will actively nurture staff and students self esteem and put into place clear listening systems which can eventually contribute to aWhole School Behaviour Policy This policy should be inclusive, positive, caring and assertive for students and staff so that all experience success in school - the gifted, the average and the individuals with special needs. The Objective: To make the selected schools safe and sensitive through embedding policies, spaces and interactions that are positive, constructive, nurturing and collaborative for all – students and staff alike. TTF’s idea is two-fold: * To contextualise and adapt the Whole School Quality Circle Time model developed by Jenny Mosley (the well-known teacher trainer, drama therapist and author from UK) and effectively use it in selected schools (both private and government and at both primary and secondary levels). The model is highly flexible and can be adapted to various linguistic, socio-cultural and geographical contexts. It requires no additional expense from the school, apart from the investment of its teachers and school leader to be trained effectively for 3-5 days. They will be periodically monitored and supported over a period of one and half years. This is the intervention component. * TTF will record change in the nature of teachers' personal interactions with their students – once they have been trained and supported to adopt an ethos of respect and warmth in their interactions with students. This will be the action research component. * The intervention is done in two phases amply supported by follow up and support sessions by TTF facilitators. 15 schools in Bangalore and 2 schools in Mysore have been selected for the pilot initiative. The project is funded by Wipro and is research based in its essence. The outcomes of the SASS project include : * Higher teacher morale * Happier, more confident and self-disciplined students * Cheerful classroom interactions * Warmer interactions between principal, school management and teachers * The development of a Whole School Behaviour Policy that ensures a consistent policy of warmth, respect and positive interactions amongst everyone in the schools as well as clarity in the rewards and sanctions systems in place. From aliens at dataone.in Sun Oct 31 12:29:54 2010 From: aliens at dataone.in (Bipin Trivedi) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 12:29:54 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] ARUNDHATI - PUBLICITY HUNGER Message-ID: <000001cb78c9$39a0a4e0$ace1eea0$@in> Guha says, "She's crazy. Arundhati Roy has become a joke, a publicity fiend," Guha told Bangalore Mirror. "She hops from cause to cause, and just look at the company she's keeping ... the likes of Syed Ali Shah Geelani, an ultimate bigot who wants to keep women in purdah and bring in an Islamic theocracy." While posting maoist topic discussion read my view on Arundhati as under: (1) When asked the question to Arundhati that most of people hate your views and writing and believe your thought impractical. She replies, if whole of India hate me I have to believe I am wrong. Then why you waiting for, understand this and come back from your wrong belief now. This proves that she is just after negative and chip publicity. (2) Even government wants Arundhati to be mediator between the government and maoist, but she denies. This is also creates doubt on her sincerity. What I think, she wants just mere publicity out of this and wants to create a show that she worried of tribal! By that way, she wants to increase sale of her books and reader audience. Same thing applicable now also. Kashmir problem is there since almost after independence and its intensity increased since 2 decades, but I have not heard any comment earlier for this issue. So, why now? She always remain of search of current hot topics and sensitized it to catch attention of media just for mere chip publicity. Dear Tara, you are right, after her shared stage with crook Geelani, many like you became her critics. Thanks Bipin Trivedi From c.anupam at gmail.com Sun Oct 31 12:59:40 2010 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 12:59:40 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] drag the likes of arundhati roy to the people's court for adjucation? In-Reply-To: <229731.4113.qm@web120218.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <229731.4113.qm@web120218.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In a conflict of aspirations, even Gods give up. How are we suggesting that there exists a peoples' court in context of Kashmir? Who are the people here? all this while, I thought and I know those who reside in Kashmir are the people that Geelani is referring to. don't you think so? why should rest of India have a say in matters pertaining Kashmir? how many of us have actually gone and worked, and have also tried to understand the aspirations of people in Kashmir while identitarian conflicts started way back in the 40s? now we are screaming that Roy and others should be taken to the peoples court? will people of India decide on kashmir or kashmiris will themselves decide their fate? please answer this question. anupam On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 7:23 PM, Aalok Aima wrote: > inder > > i wanted to alter your sentence a bit and ask you to "rave for the absence > of rationality and honesty in your heart" ...... problem was i did not know > what it means/implies > > geelani (as per the gk report) advised us that those who he judges > as guilty of "commit treason with the martyr's blood" (as per his standards) > are also doing "irreparable damage to the collective cause of nation" (his > concept of nation); are "traitors" and will get "dragged to the people’s > court for adjudication" > > my question was that whether "similarly" (using geelani's standards) "the > likes of arundhati roy" should be "dragged to the people's court for > adjucation" for doing "irreparable damage to the collective cause of nation" > (the indian nation)? > > you could have answered that question ....... what was the need for going > into a "rave"? > > i really did not understand what you were about in your response: > > "finally it is about you" (what is about me? there was no mention of a > 'me' in my comment) > > "your choice of punishing people" (my choice? it is geelani's choice ..... > mine was a question prompted by geelani's choice) > > "i would like to know your full list, or it has just begun, with Roy as > NO.1" (i have no list for punishment for anyone) > > "it is interesting to see how proud citizens like you easily condone the > terrible long long list of politicians and beauracrats who loot the country > as every moment" (i too would find it interesting if i were to do such a > thing ....... you seem to be sure that i have done it ..... any evidence of > it?) > > "but ah, you might be the beneficiary of this rotten system of ours and so > why to talk about that. right" (not right and your styatement borders on the > 'libel' of suggesting that i could be the 'beneficiary' of a 'rotten > system') > > "What you want is witch hunting, of pushing the female goat to the exit > doors of the city, and kill her, for the purification of the city. Sad" (it > is sad that you should unthinkingly make that accusation without knowing > anything about me ....... tell me ..... did you just call arundhati a > 'witch' and a 'female goat'?) > > "you are propagating fascism and not about the justice for those who are > suffering" (since i have not propagated anything here but asked a question > derived from geelani's propagation, how am i propagating fascism? or did you > mean that i was propagating geelani's fascism? ) > > "you want saner voice to die before they are even heard" (no i do not want > anyone to die ..... i am against the 'death' diktat even if issued by a > court of law ...... do not want anyone sane or insane to die) > > "Because we are shining india." (sorry to disappoint you ..... i do not > subscribe to the bjp propaganda of 'shining india' or the concept of 'india > is a super power') > > "How true, just see, you have posted a line about the scam of Adarsh Nagar > in Mumbai," (what is true? where have i posted a line about the adarsh nagar > scam?) > > you should stop 'raving' > > ........... aalok aima > > > > --- On Sat, 10/30/10, Inder Salim wrote: > > > From: Inder Salim > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] drag the likes of arundhati roy to the people's > court for adjucation? > To: "reader-list" > Date: Saturday, October 30, 2010, 4:39 PM > > > Dear Aalok > finally it is about you, > your choice of punishing people, i would like to know your full list, > or it has just begun, with Roy as NO.1. > > it is very interesting to see how proud citizens like you easily > condone the terrible long long list of politicians and beauracrats who > loot the country as every moment, but ah, you might be the beneficiary > of this rotten system of ours and so why to talk about that. right > > What you want is witch hunting, of pushing the female goat to the exit > doors of the city, and kill her, for the purification of the city. Sad > > you are propagating fascism, and not about the justice for those who > are suffering > you want saner voice to die before they are even heard. Because we are > shining india. > > How true, just see, you have posted a line about the scam of Adarsh > Nagar in Mumbai, becuase they all look very clean, swear the Gita and > Constituion of India as many times as they are offered promotions: all > the Generals and kins of CM. shame > > shame for the absence of the brave hearts > > please keep it up > > but rave for the absence of love in your heart > > is > > On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 4:31 PM, Aalok Aima wrote: > > should the likes of arundhati roy be similarly 'dragged to the people's > court for adjucation' for doing 'irreparable damage to the collective cause > of nation' ? > > > > geelani said: > > > > "Those who show any laxity or violate the protest programmes in these > days will not only commit treason with the martyrs’ blood but also do an > irreparable damage to the collective cause of nation. The pro-freedom young > generation will not tolerate such traitors and they will be dragged to the > people’s court for adjudication," > > > > .......... aalok aima > > > > > http://www.greaterkashmir.com/news/2010/Oct/30/next-10-days-crucial-geelani-49.asp > > > > Next 10-days crucial: Geelani > > GK NEWS NETWORK > > Srinagar, Oct 29: Reiterating his call for complete shutdown on October > 30, the Hurriyat Conference (G) chairman Syed Ali Shah Geelani has said the > coming 10 days were of great significance for the ongoing movement. > > > > Geelani, according to a Hurriyat statement, has stressed for intensifying > the protest programmes in coming days. “Those who show any laxity or violate > the protest programmes in these days will not only commit treason with the > martyrs’ blood but also do an irreparable damage to the collective cause of > nation. The pro-freedom young generation will not tolerate such traitors and > they will be dragged to the people’s court for adjudication,” Geelani said, > appealing to the Sumo and auto rickshaw operators to appreciate of the > sensitivity of situation and desist from causing damage to the interest of > movement. > > > > “Our freedom struggle has taken a new direction and this change has not > only attracted the international focus but has also shaken the stubborn > Indian rulers, giving them sleepless nights. This new phase of struggle has > encouraged and generated a new hope in people for making their sacrifices > result oriented,” said Geelani, adding that showing any weakness or laxity > at this juncture would be extremely detrimental to the cause of freedom. > > > > Geelani said, “Presently strong and effective voices are not only raised > in the world in favour of Kashmiris’ cause but in India too people have > started feeling the pain and agony of Kashmiris.” > > > > “The forthcoming visit of American president to India has drawn the > attention of whole world to South Asia particularly Kashmir. So it is all > the more imperative for us to highlight the atrocities being perpetrated on > us by India more and more forcefully to put across a message to the world > that the resolution of 63-year old Kashmir issue could not be further > delayed any more. And delay in resolving this issue will not only endanger > the life of human beings in the region but also make peace a far fetched > dream in South Asia,” said Geelani. > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > From rajkamalgoswami at gmail.com Sun Oct 31 13:28:59 2010 From: rajkamalgoswami at gmail.com (Rajkamal Goswami) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 13:28:59 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] ARUNDHATI - PUBLICITY HUNGER In-Reply-To: <000001cb78c9$39a0a4e0$ace1eea0$@in> References: <000001cb78c9$39a0a4e0$ace1eea0$@in> Message-ID: Dear Trivediji, "she is just after negative and chip publicity" I wish to strongly contradict this view of yours. But before I do that can you explain what do you mean by 'chip; here? Rajkamal On 10/31/10, Bipin Trivedi wrote: > Guha says, "She's crazy. Arundhati Roy has become a joke, a publicity > fiend," Guha told Bangalore Mirror. "She hops from cause to cause, and just > look at the company she's keeping ... the likes of Syed Ali Shah Geelani, an > ultimate bigot who wants to keep women in purdah and bring in an Islamic > theocracy." > > While posting maoist topic discussion read my view on Arundhati as under: > (1) When asked the question to Arundhati that most of people hate your views > and writing and believe your thought impractical. She replies, if whole of > India hate me I have to believe I am wrong. Then why you waiting for, > understand this and come back from your wrong belief now. This proves that > she is just after negative and chip publicity. (2) Even government wants > Arundhati to be mediator between the government and maoist, but she denies. > This is also creates doubt on her sincerity. What I think, she wants just > mere publicity out of this and wants to create a show that she worried of > tribal! By that way, she wants to increase sale of her books and reader > audience. > > Same thing applicable now also. Kashmir problem is there since almost after > independence and its intensity increased since 2 decades, but I have not > heard any comment earlier for this issue. So, why now? She always remain of > search of current hot topics and sensitized it to catch attention of media > just for mere chip publicity. Dear Tara, you are right, after her shared > stage with crook Geelani, many like you became her critics. > > Thanks > Bipin Trivedi > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Rajkamal From indersalim at gmail.com Sun Oct 31 13:29:33 2010 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 13:29:33 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] WHO IS AFRAID OF ARUNDHATI ROY? In-Reply-To: <011A4D8580E642788C0CA251DB89B39D@tara> References: <011A4D8580E642788C0CA251DB89B39D@tara> Message-ID: http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?267719 by Ashis Nandy On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 10:22 PM, TaraPrakash wrote: > How many do you have to offer? How about using some to scratch the part of > your body that starts itching when you hear Sonia's saner questions, you > villain of "Father Son and Holy War?" If we go in to the nuances of your > unsolicited offers it is worse suggestion than anyone made on Ms. Roy. And > yet Gods haven't said a word. > > Isn't it true now that you get admonished only if you are espousing a > different view, if you are throwing up the same stuff as entrenched you can > get away with murder on this list? > > Please Sonia don't give up because of these rude nationalists and > masculinist delinquents. We need a true perspective, not polluted by those > who make money for speaking in favor of one of the 2 sides. > > You just asked a question and these men's backsides went on fire. Amazing. > > Sorry, but I can't stand those who can't stand the critique. > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aditya Raj Baul" > > To: "reader-list" > Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2010 1:16 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] WHO IS AFRAID OF ARUNDHATI ROY? > > >> awwww poor girl you never understand questions. would you like another >> candy? >> >> On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 10:41 AM, SJabbar wrote: >>> >>> Dear Parvaiz, >>> I don't understand your big question. Do you not make a distinction >>> between >>> the Kashmiri judiciary and the Indian judiciary, and between the IPC and >>> the >>> RPC? Please clarify. >>> Sincerely, >>> Sonia >>> >>> >>> >>> On 30/10/10 9:32 AM, "Parvaiz Bukhari" wrote: >>> >>>> Samvit this is a big question you must ask ypourself....why has the >>>> indian >>> >>> judiciary failed to "perform" in Kashmir unlike >>> elsewhere in the >>>> >>>> examples u give? Or, you are saying the judiciary is also >>> >>> run by the >>>> >>>> separatists? >>> >>> On 30 October 2010 09:19, Samvit wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Parvaiz, >>>> The fact of the matter is that Indian media does not parrot the >>>> language of >>>> the fanatics (either hindu or muslim) unlike the "Greater >>>> Kashmirs" of the >>>> Valley where the word Pandit is an anathema. Try and pick >>>> up any magazine or >>>> newspaper from the Valley and all they do it glorify >>>> >>>> separatism/terrorism/extremism. It seems they have become the new towers >>>> of >>>> >>>> capitalistic Kashmir where money is the opium of the "classes". Selling >>>> a >>>> >>>> newspaper is as good as selling a toothbrush. >>>> Indian judiciary, over the >>>> years has done a good (if not excellent) job and >>>> convicted people in all >>>> kinds of crimes. An example being the case against >>>> the former Gujarat Home >>>> Minister Amit Shah. In Kashmir not a single case >>>> against the Pandits has >>>> seen the light of the day. Bitta Karata is out in >>>> the open. Perhaps you >>>> should have written a piece about him. So ironical you >>>> talk about >>>> "surviving". >>>> >>>> Here, the opressor is trying to prove that he is the >>>> oppressed. >>>> >>>> People may write an epic of Gilgamish in Arundhati's honor but >>>> then it will >>>> be as slanderous as the courteisns who used to call Aurangzeb- >>>> "Oh, king of >>>> kings, oh pinnacle of the mercy........." >>>> -Samvit >>>> >>>> >>>> On >>>> Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 8:31 AM, Parvaiz Bukhari >>> > >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Anxiously waiting for the fear to spread more so that more may >>>> >>>> survive >>>>> >>>>> Indian politicians, media and the court historians of the >>>> >>>> day... >>>>> >>>>> On 30 October 2010 05:46, Pheeta Ram >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> > Some people on this list are afraid of 'Arundhati Roy - the >>>> >>>> joke' ( BTW, >>>>> >>>>> a >>>>> > joke is not a joke) because they are afraid of laughing >>>> >>>> for obvious >>>>> >>>>> > reasons: >>>>> > >>>>> > a) they are afraid because some other >>>> >>>> people simply love her and are not >>>>> >>>>> > afraid to confess that >>>>> > b) they >>>> >>>> are afraid because she used to visit some upper-class gym in >>>>> >>>>> skimpy >>>>> > >>>> >>>> clothing >>>>> >>>>> > c) they are afraid because she married twice and is finally >>>> >>>> officially >>>>> >>>>> > single >>>>> > d) they are afraid because she supports maoists >>>> >>>> and for them maoist is a >>>>> >>>>> > term of abuse >>>>> > e) they are afraid because >>>> >>>> she supports the Aazadi of Kashmiri people >>>>> >>>>> from >>>>> > the repressive Indian >>>> >>>> state >>>>> >>>>> > f) they are afraid because she writes bewitchingly beautiful prose >>>> >>>> for >>>>> >>>>> > subversive, anti-national purposes >>>>> > g) they are afraid because >>>> >>>> they think she is publicity hungry >>>>> >>>>> > h) they are afraid because she is some >>>> >>>> day certainly going to win the >>>>> >>>>> Nobel >>>>> > Prize >>>>> > i) they are afraid >>>> >>>> because she is simply beautiful in those curly hair >>>>> >>>>> and >>>>> > that mellow >>>> >>>> childlike voice; and those mesmerizingly wondrous eyes which >>>>> >>>>> > are >>>>> > not >>>> >>>> afraid to sing for you the serenades of freedom >>>>> >>>>> > j) they are afraid >>>> >>>> because they cannot NOTREAD what she writes in a 32 >>>>> >>>>> page >>>>> > long essay >>>> >>>> after walking with the comrades in the jungles of Dantewada >>>>> >>>>> > k) they are >>>> >>>> afraid because the Indian state is now terribly scared of >>>>> >>>>> > putting her in >>>> >>>> jail for that shall certainly fetch her the Nobel Prize >>>>> >>>>> and >>>>> > win >>>> >>>> Kashmir the Aazadi >>>>> >>>>> > l) they are afraid because she shared dais with SASG >>>> >>>> and made him >>>>> >>>>> realize >>>>> > that Kashmiris are not alone in their struggle >>>> >>>> and also that Kashmiris >>>>> >>>>> also >>>>> > need to know that there is a wider world >>>> >>>> surrounding them that is also >>>>> >>>>> > struggling and that they need to >>>> >>>> acknowledge it and support it; and that >>>>> >>>>> > the >>>>> > Kashmiris have the >>>> >>>> histories of India and Pakistan ( both collective and >>>>> >>>>> > separate) before >>>> >>>> them to take strict lessons from, to fashion a >>>>> >>>>> > nation-state >>>>> > that >>>> >>>> does justice to the sacrifices of the people who have fought, are >>>>> >>>>> > >>>> >>>> fighting and shall continue fighting for Kashmir; and that all struggles >>>>> >>>>> > >>>> >>>> against the tyrant are essentially connected >>>>> >>>>> > m)they are afraid because >>>> >>>> she hops from one issue to another ( Narmada >>>>> >>>>> > >>Maoists>>Kashmir>>which >>>> >>>> next?) >>>>> >>>>> > n) they are afraid because she goes against their normative >>>> >>>> definitions >>>>> >>>>> of >>>>> > beauty and gender >>>>> > o) they are afraid because 'even >>>> >>>> a rickshawala' is praising her saying >>>>> >>>>> that >>>>> > she is a 'pseudo >>>> >>>> intellectual' (?) (Isn't it a pity that a rickshawala >>>>> >>>>> of >>>>> > such a >>>> >>>> potential is not on the sarai list?). >>>>> >>>>> > p) they are afraid because the >>>> >>>> Indian media -the stooges of Indian state >>>>> >>>>> - >>>>> > don't know what to do with >>>> >>>> her (even supremely articulate ones from the >>>>> >>>>> > media (like Karan Thapar) >>>> >>>> make an ass of themselves while interviewing >>>>> >>>>> her) >>>>> > q) they are afraid >>>> >>>> because she spits on their faces and is not wee bit >>>>> >>>>> > apologetic about it >>>> >>>> because she knows that they deserve it and that its >>>>> >>>>> her >>>>> > duty to do >>>> >>>> that >>>>> >>>>> > r) they are afraid because she is fast becoming a role model for >>>> >>>> the >>>>> >>>>> > beautiful, well-connected upper-class convent educated women who >>>> >>>> are >>>>> >>>>> > devouring her from cover to cover secretively like mills-and-boons >>>> >>>> even >>>>> >>>>> in >>>>> > their bathrooms ( so that their businessmen fathers and social >>>> >>>> butterfly >>>>> >>>>> > mothers don't catch them reading her) and dreaming about being >>>> >>>> her in >>>>> >>>>> their >>>>> > fantasy worlds (one of them confessed to me) ( in this >>>> >>>> manner the >>>>> >>>>> > phenomenon >>>>> > called Arundhati becomes a past-master in >>>> >>>> reverse engineering) >>>>> >>>>> > s) they are afraid because she has made them realize >>>> >>>> that capitalism is >>>>> >>>>> > like >>>>> > a deadly virus that shall one day surely eat >>>> >>>> itself away >>>>> >>>>> > t) they are afraid because she thinks with a beautiful heart >>>> >>>> (hence a >>>>> >>>>> > 'pseudo-intellectual') >>>>> > u) they are afraid because she >>>> >>>> converts "aesthetics of deferral" ( one >>>>> >>>>> > scourge that afflicts most of the >>>> >>>> 'intellectuals' of todays world) into >>>>> >>>>> a >>>>> > beautiful "aestheto-ethics of >>>> >>>> arrival", no mean feat i should say >>>>> >>>>> > v) they are afraid because they >>>> >>>> unconsciously compete with her and >>>>> >>>>> finding >>>>> > her a sure winner are >>>> >>>> afraid to take the challenge >>>>> >>>>> > w) they are afraid because she challenges >>>> >>>> the very rationale of their >>>>> >>>>> being >>>>> > and becoming >>>>> > x) they are afraid >>>> >>>> because she happens to be a woman (like them) >>>>> >>>>> > y) they are afraid because >>>> >>>> the Indian state has done a beautiful job in >>>>> >>>>> > bringing them up on a steady >>>> >>>> diet of 'nationalist' propaganda through >>>>> >>>>> first >>>>> > beginning with NCERT >>>> >>>> textbooks in brainwashing saloons called 'Schools' >>>>> >>>>> ( >>>>> > the reason behind >>>> >>>> the popularity of Bollywood and Cricket) >>>>> >>>>> > z) they are afraid because >>>> >>>> despite their manifest hate for her they have >>>>> >>>>> > serious doubts that some >>>> >>>> where down there they love her too. >>>>> >>>>> > ... >>>>> > >>>>> > BTW, who is afraid of >>>> >>>> what comes after Z? Jump the gun please. >>>>> >>>>> > >>>> >>>> _________________________________________ >>>>> >>>>> > reader-list: an open discussion >>>> >>>> list on media and the city. >>>>> >>>>> > Critiques & Collaborations >>>>> > To subscribe: >>>> >>>> send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>> >>>>> > subscribe in the >>>> >>>> subject header. >>>>> >>>>> > To unsubscribe: >>>> >>>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>> >>>>> > List archive: >>>> >>>> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>> >>>> _________________________________________ >>>>> >>>>> reader-list: an open discussion >>>> >>>> list on media and the city. >>>>> >>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>> To subscribe: >>>> >>>> send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>> >>>>> subscribe in the >>>> >>>> subject header. >>>>> >>>>> To unsubscribe: >>>> >>>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>> >>>>> List archive: >>>> >>>> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Samvit >>>> Rawal >>>> 9422037853 >>>> >>>> ----------------------------------------------------------- >>>> To err is human; >>>> to forgive, infrequent. >>>> - Franklin P. >>>> Adams >>>> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open >>>> >>>> discussion list on media and the city. >>> >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To >>>> >>>> subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe >>>> in >>>> the subject header. >>> >>> To unsubscribe: >>>> >>>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> >>> List archive: >>>> >>>> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >>> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From aalok.aima at yahoo.com Sun Oct 31 14:58:03 2010 From: aalok.aima at yahoo.com (Aalok Aima) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 02:28:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] drag the likes of arundhati roy to the people's court for adjucation? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <652199.45833.qm@web120208.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> anupam   " will people of India decide on kashmir or kashmiris will themselves decide their fate? please answer this question"   the people of india will decide through the constitution of india ....... right now, other than  inclusion of shariah laws with primacy given to them or the choice of seccession, the coi offers every other aspect of self-determination   in the context of the 'aazadi' aspiration of some, ms radha kumar has reportedly suggested that the coi can be amended ...... it surely can ...... whether that amending can go to the extent of the coi allowing seccession remains to be seen    in talking about 'kashmir', we tend to forget that it refers to 'kashmir valley' which is only a part of the disputed pre-partition j&k that is split between the indian and pakistani sides of the loc   even if we disregard any limitations imposed by the coi, the option for kashmiris to decide their fate is unlikely to be in exclusivity but will be linked to the resolution of the overarching dispute over pre-partition j&k   as things stand today it appears that out of that pre-partition j&k, the 'tehreek' (movement) is only of some muslims who are primarily of kashmiri valley and are primarily of kashmiri ethnicity (this is of course my opinion and there can be endless but futile argumentation around it)   ............... aalok aima      --- On Sun, 10/31/10, anupam chakravartty wrote: From: anupam chakravartty Subject: Re: [Reader-list] drag the likes of arundhati roy to the people's court for adjucation? To: "Aalok Aima" , "sarai list" Date: Sunday, October 31, 2010, 11:29 AM In a conflict of aspirations, even Gods give up. How are we suggesting that there exists a peoples' court in context of Kashmir? Who are the people here? all this while, I thought and I know those who reside in Kashmir are the people that Geelani is referring to. don't you think so? why should rest of India have a say in matters pertaining Kashmir? how many of us have actually gone and worked, and have also tried to understand the aspirations of people in Kashmir while identitarian conflicts started way back in the 40s? now we are screaming that Roy and others should be taken to the peoples court? will people of India decide on kashmir or kashmiris will themselves decide their fate? please answer this question. anupam On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 7:23 PM, Aalok Aima wrote: inder   i wanted to alter your sentence a bit and ask you to "rave for the absence of rationality and honesty in your heart" ...... problem was i did not know what it means/implies   geelani (as per the gk report) advised us that those who he judges as guilty of "commit treason with the martyr's blood" (as per his standards) are also doing "irreparable damage to the collective cause of nation" (his concept of nation); are "traitors" and will get "dragged to the people’s court for adjudication"   my question was that whether "similarly" (using geelani's standards) "the likes of arundhati roy" should be "dragged to the people's court for adjucation" for doing "irreparable damage to the collective cause of nation" (the indian nation)?   you could have answered that question ....... what was the need for going into a "rave"?   i really did not understand what you were about in your response:   "finally it is about you" (what is about me? there was no mention of a 'me' in my comment)   "your choice of punishing people" (my choice? it is geelani's choice ..... mine was a question prompted by geelani's choice)   "i would like to know your full list, or it has just begun, with Roy as NO.1" (i have no list for punishment for anyone)   "it is interesting to see how proud citizens like you easily condone the terrible long long list of politicians and beauracrats who loot the country as every moment" (i too would find it interesting if i were to do such a thing ....... you seem to be sure that i have done it ..... any evidence of it?)   "but ah, you might be the beneficiary of this rotten system of ours and so why to talk about that. right" (not right and your styatement borders on the 'libel' of suggesting that i could be the 'beneficiary' of a 'rotten system') "What you want is witch hunting, of pushing the female goat to the exit doors of the city, and kill her, for the purification of the city. Sad" (it is sad that you should unthinkingly make that accusation without knowing anything about me ....... tell me ..... did you just call arundhati a 'witch' and a 'female goat'?)   "you are propagating fascism and not about the justice for those who are suffering" (since i have not propagated anything here but asked a question derived from geelani's propagation, how am i propagating fascism? or did you mean that i was propagating geelani's fascism? ) "you want saner voice to die before they are even heard" (no i do not want anyone to die ..... i am against the 'death' diktat even if issued by a court of law ...... do not want anyone sane or insane to die)   "Because we are shining india." (sorry to disappoint you ..... i do not subscribe to the bjp propaganda of 'shining india' or the concept of 'india is a super power') "How true, just see, you have posted a line about the scam of Adarsh Nagar in Mumbai," (what is true? where have i posted a line about the adarsh nagar scam?)   you should stop 'raving'   ........... aalok aima   --- On Sat, 10/30/10, Inder Salim wrote: From: Inder Salim Subject: Re: [Reader-list] drag the likes of arundhati roy to the people's court for adjucation? To: "reader-list" Date: Saturday, October 30, 2010, 4:39 PM Dear Aalok finally it is about you, your choice of punishing people, i would like to know your full list, or it has just begun, with Roy as NO.1. it is very interesting to see how proud citizens like you easily condone the terrible long long list of politicians and beauracrats who loot the country as every moment, but ah, you might be the beneficiary of this rotten system of ours and so why to talk about that. right What you want is witch hunting, of pushing the female goat to the exit doors of the city, and kill her, for the purification of the city. Sad you are propagating fascism, and not about the justice for those who are suffering you want saner voice to die before they are even heard. Because we are shining india. How true, just see, you have posted a line about the scam of Adarsh Nagar in Mumbai, becuase they all look very clean, swear the Gita and Constituion of India as many times as they are offered promotions: all the Generals and kins of CM. shame shame for the absence of the brave hearts please keep it up but rave for the absence of love in your heart is On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 4:31 PM, Aalok Aima wrote: > should the likes of arundhati roy be similarly 'dragged to the people's court for adjucation' for doing 'irreparable damage to the collective cause of nation' ? > > geelani said: > > "Those who show any laxity or violate the protest programmes in these days will not only commit treason with the martyrs’ blood but also do an irreparable damage to the collective cause of nation. The pro-freedom young generation will not tolerate such traitors and they will be dragged to the people’s court for adjudication," > > .......... aalok aima > > http://www.greaterkashmir.com/news/2010/Oct/30/next-10-days-crucial-geelani-49.asp > > Next 10-days crucial: Geelani > GK NEWS NETWORK > Srinagar, Oct 29: Reiterating his call for complete shutdown on October 30, the Hurriyat Conference (G) chairman Syed Ali Shah Geelani has said the coming 10 days were of great significance for the ongoing movement. > > Geelani, according to a Hurriyat statement, has stressed for intensifying the protest programmes in coming days. “Those who show any laxity or violate the protest programmes in these days will not only commit treason with the martyrs’ blood but also do an irreparable damage to the collective cause of nation. The pro-freedom young generation will not tolerate such traitors and they will be dragged to the people’s court for adjudication,” Geelani said, appealing to the Sumo and auto rickshaw operators to appreciate of the sensitivity of situation and desist from causing damage to the interest of movement. > >  “Our freedom struggle has taken a new direction and this change has not only attracted the international focus but has also shaken the stubborn Indian rulers, giving them sleepless nights. This new phase of struggle has encouraged and generated a new hope in people for making their sacrifices result oriented,” said Geelani, adding that showing any weakness or laxity at this juncture would be extremely detrimental to the cause of freedom. > >  Geelani said, “Presently strong and effective voices are not only raised in the world in favour of Kashmiris’ cause but in India too people have started feeling the pain and agony of Kashmiris.” > >  “The forthcoming visit of American president to India has drawn the attention of whole world to South Asia particularly Kashmir. So it is all the more imperative for us to highlight the atrocities being perpetrated on us by India more and more forcefully to put across a message to the world that the resolution of 63-year old Kashmir issue could not be further delayed any more. And delay in resolving this issue will not only endanger the life of human beings in the region but also make peace a far fetched dream in South Asia,” said Geelani. > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: From aalok.aima at yahoo.com Sun Oct 31 15:14:13 2010 From: aalok.aima at yahoo.com (Aalok Aima) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 02:44:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] ARUNDHATI - PUBLICITY HUNGER In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <299018.59180.qm@web120207.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> rajkamal   he certainly meant "cheap publicity" and it is surprising that you need that clarified   maybe you are not aware that there are many many millions from india who are not proficient in english grammar and spellings ...... quite often they are likely to use the phonetics of the alphabet when they write in english ...... spellings might go awry but they manage to express themselves   there is an unfortunate tendency in some to criticise or blatantly make fun of or subtly poke fun at those people who's accent, annunciation or spellings in the english language do not meet their standards   .......... aalok aima --- On Sun, 10/31/10, Rajkamal Goswami wrote: From: Rajkamal Goswami Subject: Re: [Reader-list] ARUNDHATI - PUBLICITY HUNGER To: "Bipin Trivedi" Cc: "sarai-list" Date: Sunday, October 31, 2010, 11:58 AM Dear Trivediji, "she is just after negative and chip publicity" I wish to strongly contradict this view of yours. But before I do that can you explain what do you mean by 'chip; here? Rajkamal On 10/31/10, Bipin Trivedi wrote: > Guha says, "She's crazy. Arundhati Roy has become a joke, a publicity > fiend," Guha told Bangalore Mirror. "She hops from cause to cause, and just > look at the company she's keeping ... the likes of Syed Ali Shah Geelani, an > ultimate bigot who wants to keep women in purdah and bring in an Islamic > theocracy." > > While posting maoist topic discussion read my view on Arundhati as under: > (1) When asked the question to Arundhati that most of people hate your views > and writing and believe your thought impractical. She replies, if whole of > India hate me I have to believe I am wrong. Then why you waiting for, > understand this and come back from your wrong belief now. This proves that > she is just after negative and chip publicity. (2) Even government wants > Arundhati to be mediator between the government and maoist, but she denies. > This is also creates doubt on her sincerity. What I think, she wants just > mere publicity out of this and wants to create a show that she worried of > tribal! By that way, she wants to increase sale of her books and reader > audience. > > Same thing applicable now also. Kashmir problem is there since almost after > independence and its intensity increased since 2 decades, but I have not > heard any comment earlier for this issue. So, why now? She always remain of > search of current hot topics and sensitized it to catch attention of media > just for mere chip publicity. Dear Tara, you are right, after her shared > stage with crook Geelani, many like you became her critics. > > Thanks > Bipin Trivedi > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Rajkamal _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From iram at sarai.net Sun Oct 31 14:59:28 2010 From: iram at sarai.net (Iram Ghufran) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 15:29:28 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] fwd: Daayen ya Baayen Message-ID: <4CCD36F8.7060401@sarai.net> Dear Iram, do circulate on all lists you can circulate this on. The film is getting no publicity from the wretched a'hole of a producer love hansa Releasing on Friday in Delhi, Bombay, Pune, Nagpur, Ahmedabad' Daayen ya Baayen A film by Bela Negi, a comic drama set in Uttaranchal, has been getting some wonderful reviews ( links enclosed) Releasing this friday.. do try and catch it, fast. Take your family along. http://kafila.org/2010/10/27/daayen-ya-baayen/ http://www.mid-day.com/opinion/2010/oct/241010-opinion-paromita-vohra-hindi-films-small-towns-villages.htm write up on daayen ya baayen by columnist and film maker Paromita Vohra Pankaj Advani, director, Sankat City calls it a " quaint, picturesque, fable-like comedy, peppered with unforgettable characters. DYB is a must watch" Anurag Kashyap " Daayen ya Baayen is yet another gem to be seen on screen. Do not miss it! " Rajat Kapoor " Bela's film is a little gem. The humour reminds you of the czech films of the 60's- and it leaves you dumbstruck thinking how she has achieved so much with so little. The kind of film that leaves you with a smile that does not leave you. Deepak's performance just takes your breath away! Hats off!!" Try not to miss the film- see it over the weekend itself! From adityarajbaul at gmail.com Sun Oct 31 15:19:05 2010 From: adityarajbaul at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Baul) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 15:19:05 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] WHO IS AFRAID OF ARUNDHATI ROY? In-Reply-To: <011A4D8580E642788C0CA251DB89B39D@tara> References: <011A4D8580E642788C0CA251DB89B39D@tara> Message-ID: Dear Inder Salim and TaraPrakash, I was just showing Sonia Jabbar a piece of her own style. She had shut me up in this cheap, condescending way when I simply asked her why she was not holding the India's state's acts in Kashmir to the same rigorous tests that she was putting the Kashmiri leadership to. I am all for respectful disagreement and reasonable engagement and do not wish to contribute to the prevalent culture of malevolent name-calling on this esteemed list. I just wanted to show Sonia Jabbar, as an aberration, the meaning of the Biblical saying, ''Do unto others as you would have them do unto you'. The reference here, if you haven't followed, is on another thread, where Sonia Jabbar was engaged in a dialogue with Shuddhabrata Sengupta. I urge you to go through that exchange again. I apologise to you, Inder Salim and TaraPrakash, and to anyone else for whom this left a bad taste in the mouth. But as regards with Sonia Jabbar I think the purpose has been served. Also, I'm not speaking out of anger, but out of amusement to see Sonia Jabbar bereft of answers when the hypocrisy of her ever-changing stance is exposed. best regards, Aditya Raj Baul On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 10:22 PM, TaraPrakash wrote: > How many do you have to offer? How about using some to scratch the part of > your body that starts itching when you hear Sonia's saner questions, you > villain of "Father Son and Holy War?" If we go in to the nuances of your > unsolicited offers it is worse suggestion than anyone made on Ms. Roy. And > yet Gods haven't said a word. > > Isn't it true now that you get admonished only if you are espousing a > different view, if you are throwing up the same stuff as entrenched you can > get away with murder on this list? > > Please Sonia don't give up because of these rude nationalists and > masculinist delinquents. We need a true perspective, not polluted by those > who make money for speaking in favor of one of the 2 sides. > > You just asked a question and these men's backsides went on fire. Amazing. > > Sorry, but I can't stand those who can't stand the critique. > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aditya Raj Baul" > > To: "reader-list" > Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2010 1:16 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] WHO IS AFRAID OF ARUNDHATI ROY? > > >> awwww poor girl you never understand questions. would you like another >> candy? >> >> On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 10:41 AM, SJabbar wrote: >>> >>> Dear Parvaiz, >>> I don't understand your big question. Do you not make a distinction >>> between >>> the Kashmiri judiciary and the Indian judiciary, and between the IPC and >>> the >>> RPC? Please clarify. >>> Sincerely, >>> Sonia >>> >>> >>> >>> On 30/10/10 9:32 AM, "Parvaiz Bukhari" wrote: >>> >>>> Samvit this is a big question you must ask ypourself....why has the >>>> indian >>> >>> judiciary failed to "perform" in Kashmir unlike >>> elsewhere in the >>>> >>>> examples u give? Or, you are saying the judiciary is also >>> >>> run by the >>>> >>>> separatists? >>> >>> On 30 October 2010 09:19, Samvit wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Parvaiz, >>>> The fact of the matter is that Indian media does not parrot the >>>> language of >>>> the fanatics (either hindu or muslim) unlike the "Greater >>>> Kashmirs" of the >>>> Valley where the word Pandit is an anathema. Try and pick >>>> up any magazine or >>>> newspaper from the Valley and all they do it glorify >>>> >>>> separatism/terrorism/extremism. It seems they have become the new towers >>>> of >>>> >>>> capitalistic Kashmir where money is the opium of the "classes". Selling >>>> a >>>> >>>> newspaper is as good as selling a toothbrush. >>>> Indian judiciary, over the >>>> years has done a good (if not excellent) job and >>>> convicted people in all >>>> kinds of crimes. An example being the case against >>>> the former Gujarat Home >>>> Minister Amit Shah. In Kashmir not a single case >>>> against the Pandits has >>>> seen the light of the day. Bitta Karata is out in >>>> the open. Perhaps you >>>> should have written a piece about him. So ironical you >>>> talk about >>>> "surviving". >>>> >>>> Here, the opressor is trying to prove that he is the >>>> oppressed. >>>> >>>> People may write an epic of Gilgamish in Arundhati's honor but >>>> then it will >>>> be as slanderous as the courteisns who used to call Aurangzeb- >>>> "Oh, king of >>>> kings, oh pinnacle of the mercy........." >>>> -Samvit >>>> >>>> >>>> On >>>> Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 8:31 AM, Parvaiz Bukhari >>> > >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Anxiously waiting for the fear to spread more so that more may >>>> >>>> survive >>>>> >>>>> Indian politicians, media and the court historians of the >>>> >>>> day... >>>>> >>>>> On 30 October 2010 05:46, Pheeta Ram >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> > Some people on this list are afraid of 'Arundhati Roy - the >>>> >>>> joke' ( BTW, >>>>> >>>>> a >>>>> > joke is not a joke) because they are afraid of laughing >>>> >>>> for obvious >>>>> >>>>> > reasons: >>>>> > >>>>> > a) they are afraid because some other >>>> >>>> people simply love her and are not >>>>> >>>>> > afraid to confess that >>>>> > b) they >>>> >>>> are afraid because she used to visit some upper-class gym in >>>>> >>>>> skimpy >>>>> > >>>> >>>> clothing >>>>> >>>>> > c) they are afraid because she married twice and is finally >>>> >>>> officially >>>>> >>>>> > single >>>>> > d) they are afraid because she supports maoists >>>> >>>> and for them maoist is a >>>>> >>>>> > term of abuse >>>>> > e) they are afraid because >>>> >>>> she supports the Aazadi of Kashmiri people >>>>> >>>>> from >>>>> > the repressive Indian >>>> >>>> state >>>>> >>>>> > f) they are afraid because she writes bewitchingly beautiful prose >>>> >>>> for >>>>> >>>>> > subversive, anti-national purposes >>>>> > g) they are afraid because >>>> >>>> they think she is publicity hungry >>>>> >>>>> > h) they are afraid because she is some >>>> >>>> day certainly going to win the >>>>> >>>>> Nobel >>>>> > Prize >>>>> > i) they are afraid >>>> >>>> because she is simply beautiful in those curly hair >>>>> >>>>> and >>>>> > that mellow >>>> >>>> childlike voice; and those mesmerizingly wondrous eyes which >>>>> >>>>> > are >>>>> > not >>>> >>>> afraid to sing for you the serenades of freedom >>>>> >>>>> > j) they are afraid >>>> >>>> because they cannot NOTREAD what she writes in a 32 >>>>> >>>>> page >>>>> > long essay >>>> >>>> after walking with the comrades in the jungles of Dantewada >>>>> >>>>> > k) they are >>>> >>>> afraid because the Indian state is now terribly scared of >>>>> >>>>> > putting her in >>>> >>>> jail for that shall certainly fetch her the Nobel Prize >>>>> >>>>> and >>>>> > win >>>> >>>> Kashmir the Aazadi >>>>> >>>>> > l) they are afraid because she shared dais with SASG >>>> >>>> and made him >>>>> >>>>> realize >>>>> > that Kashmiris are not alone in their struggle >>>> >>>> and also that Kashmiris >>>>> >>>>> also >>>>> > need to know that there is a wider world >>>> >>>> surrounding them that is also >>>>> >>>>> > struggling and that they need to >>>> >>>> acknowledge it and support it; and that >>>>> >>>>> > the >>>>> > Kashmiris have the >>>> >>>> histories of India and Pakistan ( both collective and >>>>> >>>>> > separate) before >>>> >>>> them to take strict lessons from, to fashion a >>>>> >>>>> > nation-state >>>>> > that >>>> >>>> does justice to the sacrifices of the people who have fought, are >>>>> >>>>> > >>>> >>>> fighting and shall continue fighting for Kashmir; and that all struggles >>>>> >>>>> > >>>> >>>> against the tyrant are essentially connected >>>>> >>>>> > m)they are afraid because >>>> >>>> she hops from one issue to another ( Narmada >>>>> >>>>> > >>Maoists>>Kashmir>>which >>>> >>>> next?) >>>>> >>>>> > n) they are afraid because she goes against their normative >>>> >>>> definitions >>>>> >>>>> of >>>>> > beauty and gender >>>>> > o) they are afraid because 'even >>>> >>>> a rickshawala' is praising her saying >>>>> >>>>> that >>>>> > she is a 'pseudo >>>> >>>> intellectual' (?) (Isn't it a pity that a rickshawala >>>>> >>>>> of >>>>> > such a >>>> >>>> potential is not on the sarai list?). >>>>> >>>>> > p) they are afraid because the >>>> >>>> Indian media -the stooges of Indian state >>>>> >>>>> - >>>>> > don't know what to do with >>>> >>>> her (even supremely articulate ones from the >>>>> >>>>> > media (like Karan Thapar) >>>> >>>> make an ass of themselves while interviewing >>>>> >>>>> her) >>>>> > q) they are afraid >>>> >>>> because she spits on their faces and is not wee bit >>>>> >>>>> > apologetic about it >>>> >>>> because she knows that they deserve it and that its >>>>> >>>>> her >>>>> > duty to do >>>> >>>> that >>>>> >>>>> > r) they are afraid because she is fast becoming a role model for >>>> >>>> the >>>>> >>>>> > beautiful, well-connected upper-class convent educated women who >>>> >>>> are >>>>> >>>>> > devouring her from cover to cover secretively like mills-and-boons >>>> >>>> even >>>>> >>>>> in >>>>> > their bathrooms ( so that their businessmen fathers and social >>>> >>>> butterfly >>>>> >>>>> > mothers don't catch them reading her) and dreaming about being >>>> >>>> her in >>>>> >>>>> their >>>>> > fantasy worlds (one of them confessed to me) ( in this >>>> >>>> manner the >>>>> >>>>> > phenomenon >>>>> > called Arundhati becomes a past-master in >>>> >>>> reverse engineering) >>>>> >>>>> > s) they are afraid because she has made them realize >>>> >>>> that capitalism is >>>>> >>>>> > like >>>>> > a deadly virus that shall one day surely eat >>>> >>>> itself away >>>>> >>>>> > t) they are afraid because she thinks with a beautiful heart >>>> >>>> (hence a >>>>> >>>>> > 'pseudo-intellectual') >>>>> > u) they are afraid because she >>>> >>>> converts "aesthetics of deferral" ( one >>>>> >>>>> > scourge that afflicts most of the >>>> >>>> 'intellectuals' of todays world) into >>>>> >>>>> a >>>>> > beautiful "aestheto-ethics of >>>> >>>> arrival", no mean feat i should say >>>>> >>>>> > v) they are afraid because they >>>> >>>> unconsciously compete with her and >>>>> >>>>> finding >>>>> > her a sure winner are >>>> >>>> afraid to take the challenge >>>>> >>>>> > w) they are afraid because she challenges >>>> >>>> the very rationale of their >>>>> >>>>> being >>>>> > and becoming >>>>> > x) they are afraid >>>> >>>> because she happens to be a woman (like them) >>>>> >>>>> > y) they are afraid because >>>> >>>> the Indian state has done a beautiful job in >>>>> >>>>> > bringing them up on a steady >>>> >>>> diet of 'nationalist' propaganda through >>>>> >>>>> first >>>>> > beginning with NCERT >>>> >>>> textbooks in brainwashing saloons called 'Schools' >>>>> >>>>> ( >>>>> > the reason behind >>>> >>>> the popularity of Bollywood and Cricket) >>>>> >>>>> > z) they are afraid because >>>> >>>> despite their manifest hate for her they have >>>>> >>>>> > serious doubts that some >>>> >>>> where down there they love her too. >>>>> >>>>> > ... >>>>> > >>>>> > BTW, who is afraid of >>>> >>>> what comes after Z? Jump the gun please. >>>>> >>>>> > >>>> >>>> _________________________________________ >>>>> >>>>> > reader-list: an open discussion >>>> >>>> list on media and the city. >>>>> >>>>> > Critiques & Collaborations >>>>> > To subscribe: >>>> >>>> send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>> >>>>> > subscribe in the >>>> >>>> subject header. >>>>> >>>>> > To unsubscribe: >>>> >>>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>> >>>>> > List archive: >>>> >>>> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>> >>>> _________________________________________ >>>>> >>>>> reader-list: an open discussion >>>> >>>> list on media and the city. >>>>> >>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>> To subscribe: >>>> >>>> send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>> >>>>> subscribe in the >>>> >>>> subject header. >>>>> >>>>> To unsubscribe: >>>> >>>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>> >>>>> List archive: >>>> >>>> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Samvit >>>> Rawal >>>> 9422037853 >>>> >>>> ----------------------------------------------------------- >>>> To err is human; >>>> to forgive, infrequent. >>>> - Franklin P. >>>> Adams >>>> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open >>>> >>>> discussion list on media and the city. >>> >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To >>>> >>>> subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe >>>> in >>>> the subject header. >>> >>> To unsubscribe: >>>> >>>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> >>> List archive: >>>> >>>> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >>> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > From c.anupam at gmail.com Sun Oct 31 15:23:38 2010 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 15:23:38 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] drag the likes of arundhati roy to the people's court for adjucation? In-Reply-To: <652199.45833.qm@web120208.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <652199.45833.qm@web120208.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thank you for reply and thanks for adding :(this is of course my opinion and there can be endless but futile argumentation around it) I have a question that follows from your response where you have stated: the people of india will decide through the constitution of india ....... right now, other than inclusion of shariah laws with primacy given to them or the choice of seccession, the coi offers every other aspect of self-determination. How is Constitution of India "offering" something called self determination? If it so serious about this elusive ideal called self determination, what are the security forces doing in kashmir? can self determination be achieved if people resort to pelting stones? so what has prompted them to pelt stones if the CoI is offering such a sweet deal for the kashmiris. Anupam On Sun, Oct 31, 2010 at 2:58 PM, Aalok Aima wrote: > anupam > > " will people of India decide on kashmir or kashmiris will themselves > decide their fate? please answer this question" > > the people of india will decide through the constitution of india ....... > right now, other than inclusion of shariah laws with primacy given to them > or the choice of seccession, the coi offers every other aspect of > self-determination > > in the context of the 'aazadi' aspiration of some, ms radha kumar has > reportedly suggested that the coi can be amended ...... it surely can ...... > whether that amending can go to the extent of the coi allowing seccession > remains to be seen > > in talking about 'kashmir', we tend to forget that it refers to 'kashmir > valley' which is only a part of the disputed pre-partition j&k that is split > between the indian and pakistani sides of the loc > > even if we disregard any limitations imposed by the coi, the option for > kashmiris to decide their fate is unlikely to be in exclusivity but will be > linked to the resolution of the overarching dispute over pre-partition j&k > > as things stand today it appears that out of that pre-partition j&k, the > 'tehreek' (movement) is only of some muslims who are primarily of kashmiri > valley and are primarily of kashmiri ethnicity (this is of course my opinion > and there can be endless but futile argumentation around it) > > ............... aalok aima > > > --- On *Sun, 10/31/10, anupam chakravartty * wrote: > > > From: anupam chakravartty > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] drag the likes of arundhati roy to the people's > court for adjucation? > To: "Aalok Aima" , "sarai list" < > reader-list at sarai.net> > Date: Sunday, October 31, 2010, 11:29 AM > > > In a conflict of aspirations, even Gods give up. How are we suggesting that > there exists a peoples' court in context of Kashmir? Who are the people > here? all this while, I thought and I know those who reside in Kashmir are > the people that Geelani is referring to. don't you think so? why should rest > of India have a say in matters pertaining Kashmir? how many of us have > actually gone and worked, and have also tried to understand the aspirations > of people in Kashmir while identitarian conflicts started way back in the > 40s? now we are screaming that Roy and others should be taken to the peoples > court? will people of India decide on kashmir or kashmiris will themselves > decide their fate? please answer this question. > > anupam > > > > On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 7:23 PM, Aalok Aima > > wrote: > > inder > > i wanted to alter your sentence a bit and ask you to "rave for the absence > of rationality and honesty in your heart" ...... problem was i did not know > what it means/implies > > geelani (as per the gk report) advised us that those who he judges > as guilty of "commit treason with the martyr's blood" (as per his standards) > are also doing "irreparable damage to the collective cause of nation" (his > concept of nation); are "traitors" and will get "dragged to the people’s > court for adjudication" > > my question was that whether "similarly" (using geelani's standards) "the > likes of arundhati roy" should be "dragged to the people's court for > adjucation" for doing "irreparable damage to the collective cause of nation" > (the indian nation)? > > you could have answered that question ....... what was the need for going > into a "rave"? > > i really did not understand what you were about in your response: > > "finally it is about you" (what is about me? there was no mention of a > 'me' in my comment) > > "your choice of punishing people" (my choice? it is geelani's choice ..... > mine was a question prompted by geelani's choice) > > "i would like to know your full list, or it has just begun, with Roy as > NO.1" (i have no list for punishment for anyone) > > "it is interesting to see how proud citizens like you easily condone the > terrible long long list of politicians and beauracrats who loot the country > as every moment" (i too would find it interesting if i were to do such a > thing ....... you seem to be sure that i have done it ..... any evidence of > it?) > > "but ah, you might be the beneficiary of this rotten system of ours and so > why to talk about that. right" (not right and your styatement borders on the > 'libel' of suggesting that i could be the 'beneficiary' of a 'rotten > system') > > "What you want is witch hunting, of pushing the female goat to the exit > doors of the city, and kill her, for the purification of the city. Sad" (it > is sad that you should unthinkingly make that accusation without knowing > anything about me ....... tell me ..... did you just call arundhati a > 'witch' and a 'female goat'?) > > "you are propagating fascism and not about the justice for those who are > suffering" (since i have not propagated anything here but asked a question > derived from geelani's propagation, how am i propagating fascism? or did you > mean that i was propagating geelani's fascism? ) > > "you want saner voice to die before they are even heard" (no i do not want > anyone to die ..... i am against the 'death' diktat even if issued by a > court of law ...... do not want anyone sane or insane to die) > > "Because we are shining india." (sorry to disappoint you ..... i do not > subscribe to the bjp propaganda of 'shining india' or the concept of 'india > is a super power') > > "How true, just see, you have posted a line about the scam of Adarsh Nagar > in Mumbai," (what is true? where have i posted a line about the adarsh nagar > scam?) > > you should stop 'raving' > > ........... aalok aima > > > > --- On Sat, 10/30/10, Inder Salim > > wrote: > > > From: Inder Salim > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] drag the likes of arundhati roy to the people's > court for adjucation? > To: "reader-list" > > > Date: Saturday, October 30, 2010, 4:39 PM > > > Dear Aalok > finally it is about you, > your choice of punishing people, i would like to know your full list, > or it has just begun, with Roy as NO.1. > > it is very interesting to see how proud citizens like you easily > condone the terrible long long list of politicians and beauracrats who > loot the country as every moment, but ah, you might be the beneficiary > of this rotten system of ours and so why to talk about that. right > > What you want is witch hunting, of pushing the female goat to the exit > doors of the city, and kill her, for the purification of the city. Sad > > you are propagating fascism, and not about the justice for those who > are suffering > you want saner voice to die before they are even heard. Because we are > shining india. > > How true, just see, you have posted a line about the scam of Adarsh > Nagar in Mumbai, becuase they all look very clean, swear the Gita and > Constituion of India as many times as they are offered promotions: all > the Generals and kins of CM. shame > > shame for the absence of the brave hearts > > please keep it up > > but rave for the absence of love in your heart > > is > > On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 4:31 PM, Aalok Aima > > wrote: > > should the likes of arundhati roy be similarly 'dragged to the people's > court for adjucation' for doing 'irreparable damage to the collective cause > of nation' ? > > > > geelani said: > > > > "Those who show any laxity or violate the protest programmes in these > days will not only commit treason with the martyrs’ blood but also do an > irreparable damage to the collective cause of nation. The pro-freedom young > generation will not tolerate such traitors and they will be dragged to the > people’s court for adjudication," > > > > .......... aalok aima > > > > > http://www.greaterkashmir.com/news/2010/Oct/30/next-10-days-crucial-geelani-49.asp > > > > Next 10-days crucial: Geelani > > GK NEWS NETWORK > > Srinagar, Oct 29: Reiterating his call for complete shutdown on October > 30, the Hurriyat Conference (G) chairman Syed Ali Shah Geelani has said the > coming 10 days were of great significance for the ongoing movement. > > > > Geelani, according to a Hurriyat statement, has stressed for intensifying > the protest programmes in coming days. “Those who show any laxity or violate > the protest programmes in these days will not only commit treason with the > martyrs’ blood but also do an irreparable damage to the collective cause of > nation. The pro-freedom young generation will not tolerate such traitors and > they will be dragged to the people’s court for adjudication,” Geelani said, > appealing to the Sumo and auto rickshaw operators to appreciate of the > sensitivity of situation and desist from causing damage to the interest of > movement. > > > > “Our freedom struggle has taken a new direction and this change has not > only attracted the international focus but has also shaken the stubborn > Indian rulers, giving them sleepless nights. This new phase of struggle has > encouraged and generated a new hope in people for making their sacrifices > result oriented,” said Geelani, adding that showing any weakness or laxity > at this juncture would be extremely detrimental to the cause of freedom. > > > > Geelani said, “Presently strong and effective voices are not only raised > in the world in favour of Kashmiris’ cause but in India too people have > started feeling the pain and agony of Kashmiris.” > > > > “The forthcoming visit of American president to India has drawn the > attention of whole world to South Asia particularly Kashmir. So it is all > the more imperative for us to highlight the atrocities being perpetrated on > us by India more and more forcefully to put across a message to the world > that the resolution of 63-year old Kashmir issue could not be further > delayed any more. And delay in resolving this issue will not only endanger > the life of human beings in the region but also make peace a far fetched > dream in South Asia,” said Geelani. > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > From rajkamalgoswami at gmail.com Sun Oct 31 16:08:02 2010 From: rajkamalgoswami at gmail.com (Rajkamal Goswami) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 16:08:02 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] ARUNDHATI - PUBLICITY HUNGER In-Reply-To: <299018.59180.qm@web120207.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <299018.59180.qm@web120207.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hey Aalok Dont get so freaked man. It just happened that I didn't want to assume in this case, and its my general principle that I refrain myself from assuming, more so specially when I wish to rip apart someone. I have neither any issues with people's mediocre expression skill/knowledge of human language nor do I judge anyone based on their writing skills. I myself am far from efficient in English. And if you care, skills, efficiency, proficiency expertise are all gauged on a relative scale. So please don't freak out for things which I didn't mean. rajkamal On 10/31/10, Aalok Aima wrote: > rajkamal > > he certainly meant "cheap publicity" and it is surprising that you need that > clarified > > maybe you are not aware that there are many many millions from india who are > not proficient in english grammar and spellings ...... quite often they are > likely to use the phonetics of the alphabet when they write in english > ...... spellings might go awry but they manage to express themselves > > there is an unfortunate tendency in some to criticise or blatantly make fun > of or subtly poke fun at those people who's accent, annunciation or > spellings in the english language do not meet their standards > > .......... aalok aima > > --- On Sun, 10/31/10, Rajkamal Goswami wrote: > > > From: Rajkamal Goswami > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] ARUNDHATI - PUBLICITY HUNGER > To: "Bipin Trivedi" > Cc: "sarai-list" > Date: Sunday, October 31, 2010, 11:58 AM > > > Dear Trivediji, > > "she is just after negative and chip publicity" > > I wish to strongly contradict this view of yours. But before I do that > can you explain what do you mean by 'chip; here? > > Rajkamal > > On 10/31/10, Bipin Trivedi wrote: >> Guha says, "She's crazy. Arundhati Roy has become a joke, a publicity >> fiend," Guha told Bangalore Mirror. "She hops from cause to cause, and >> just >> look at the company she's keeping ... the likes of Syed Ali Shah Geelani, >> an >> ultimate bigot who wants to keep women in purdah and bring in an Islamic >> theocracy." >> >> While posting maoist topic discussion read my view on Arundhati as under: >> (1) When asked the question to Arundhati that most of people hate your >> views >> and writing and believe your thought impractical. She replies, if whole of >> India hate me I have to believe I am wrong. Then why you waiting for, >> understand this and come back from your wrong belief now. This proves that >> she is just after negative and chip publicity. (2) Even government wants >> Arundhati to be mediator between the government and maoist, but she >> denies. >> This is also creates doubt on her sincerity. What I think, she wants just >> mere publicity out of this and wants to create a show that she worried of >> tribal! By that way, she wants to increase sale of her books and reader >> audience. >> >> Same thing applicable now also. Kashmir problem is there since almost >> after >> independence and its intensity increased since 2 decades, but I have not >> heard any comment earlier for this issue. So, why now? She always remain >> of >> search of current hot topics and sensitized it to catch attention of media >> just for mere chip publicity. Dear Tara, you are right, after her shared >> stage with crook Geelani, many like you became her critics. >> >> Thanks >> Bipin Trivedi >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe >> in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > -- > Rajkamal > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > -- Rajkamal From adityarajbaul at gmail.com Sun Oct 31 16:11:45 2010 From: adityarajbaul at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Baul) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 16:11:45 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] ARUNDHATI - PUBLICITY HUNGER In-Reply-To: References: <299018.59180.qm@web120207.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thinkers and Tinkers by Mihir S Sharma Posted online: Sat Oct 30 2010, 09:58 hrs http://www.indianexpress.com/story-print/704748/ Book: Makers of Modern India Edited and Introduced by Ramachandra Guha Viking/Pages: 549/Price: Rs 799 Ramachandra Guha is, quite evidently, a man dissatisfied. He is displeased that our politicians are not as well-read nor, in his opinion, thinkers as profound as those who preceded them. He is disgruntled at the dominance of Bengalis in the social sciences, and thus the dominance of Bengal in the narrative of modern India. He is dismayed that modernists seem to have died out among our “thinker-activists”. And he is deeply discontented with the stranglehold on India’s 20th century historiography of a telling of our past that owes much to a Congress-CPI view of the world, one he would view as insufficiently liberal. Since he is also a man of considerable energy, Guha has attempted to outline and correct these great wrongs. With Makers of Modern India, his readers will understand why he will not succeed. Over 500 or so pages, Guha excerpts the speeches and writings of 19 of India’s influential leaders and thinkers. His aim, he says, is to produce an understanding of the diversity of Indian political debate; and to demonstrate that this country is unique in having those who most shaped its history also “write most authoritatively about it”. A statement classically Guha-esque, in that it is baldly claimed in the first line, and then followed a little later by an explanation as to why it isn’t completely true. It isn’t true, of course, because not all of India’s most accomplished and powerful politicians meet Guha’s standards as thinkers. He does attempt to explain some of his exclusions: Subhas Chandra Bose and Sardar Vallabhbhai Patel, he argues, were not original thinkers; Indira Gandhi was known primarily for her actions; S. Radhakrishnan and Aurobindo, conversely, principally for their writing. A reasoning that appears defensible until one notices that Guha doesn’t bother to apply it. C. Rajagopalachari, for example, beloved of economic liberals, receives a section in which he argues persuasively and eloquently for free-market principles, against one-party dominance, for electoral reform. Not a word comes across as less than well considered; not a word, equally, appears “original”, rather than an excellently argued restatement of common tropes. And yet, confusingly, Guha excludes all Marxists for doing precisely that. Meanwhile, the RSS’ M.S. Golwalkar is included, with a ranting speech that sounds as if it could have been delivered yesterday in Pilibhit, laden with conspiracy theories about missionaries and Muslims poisoning ponds with beef to entrap honest Hindus into converting. “What this particular ‘Maker’ lost by way of intellectual sophistication he perhaps made up by way of social and political influence,” argues Guha, blithely undermining his stated standard of “subtlety of argument”. Carping about who these 19 thinkers are is not a petty enterprise. It is, in fact, the only reasonable response to this book, for two reasons. First, there is nothing of Guha in this book other than the choice, and his defence of it. The little, Wikipedia-esque, biographical sketches of each of the 19 are less portraits than caricatures. (B.R. Ambedkar gets three small paragraphs.) Few of the excerpts are provided with context more than a line or two; nor does Guha consistently address his choice of excerpt: is it representative? Particularly well-argued? Particularly erudite? Particularly relevant? We are left to guess. What remains, therefore, of original work here, is the act of list-making, like a grad-school drinking game. (“Name 15 non-Bengali thinkers, quick!”) The second reason why these choices matter is that Guha is self-consciously trying to create a new Indian political theory, a new Indian political story, one that sets itself apart from and in opposition to the court histories that most students in our universities still read. But in the incoherence of his choices here, and in the 1,000 or so pages of India After Gandhi, it is clear that, however noble an aim, this is one thing Guha will not manage. Liberalism, one assumes, is more than merely a diversity of views; a liberal re-telling of Indian history must be more than what Guha manages to provide. Yes, an intellectual magpie, collecting bright, sparkly facts, he is always an enjoyable read. (Who else will tell you that E.M. Forster imagined that a Voltaire alive in the 1950s would decide that only Jawaharlal Nehru among world leaders was worth corresponding with?) But magpies are hoarders, not jewellers, and here, as with India After Gandhi, the bright sparkly facts are not strung together at all. There is no alternative narrative to be embraced. Unsurprisingly, one friend of mine complained to me last week that he can’t finish a Guha book — he has to go out and buy Bipan Chandra to “get a complete picture”. If that’s not a failure of Guha’s larger liberal project, what is? Broken though their setting, some of the excerpts do indeed shine. Nehru, of course, is always rewarding to read, his clarity and humanism calming. Mahatma Gandhi, in the breadth and uniqueness of his concerns, is perplexing, disturbing, moving, infuriating, and constantly surprising. (At the end of an argument for temple-entry for Dalits, he casually urges technical education for them, too.) Rammanohar Lohia’s invective is delightful, making one pity Sharad Yadav his constraints; and if Ambedkar is ill-served by Guha’s chosen extracts, Periyar makes up for that, with four pieces of sustained, wonderful radicalism. He tears into religion, of course, with one passage mocking the cost of a trip to Tirupati. But he also speaks for contraception, widows’ rights and against marriage. As Periyar’s and Gandhi’s writings show, three things can be said of many of our reformers and thinkers. We don’t know enough of what they said; they were unafraid of radicalism; and much of what they say resounds as sadly relevant still. This is perhaps most obvious with Rammohan Roy, a man ahead not only of his time but very probably of ours. Here, decades before the Congress, more than a century before the Constitution, is a polite petition for press freedom, stating unapologetically that Calcuttans should be “justified in boasting” that “they are secured in the enjoyment of the same civil and religious privileges that every Briton is entitled to in England”. Here, decades before Macaulay, is a furious letter to the governor-general, prompted by state funding for a Sanskrit school in Calcutta: “The Sangscrit language... is well known to have been for ages a lamentable check on the diffusion of knowledge, and the learning concealed under the almost impervious veil is far from sufficient to reward the labour of acquiring it.” Perhaps we’re not Macaulay-vadis but Rammohanvadis? I wouldn’t mind. Reminding us of the many ideas that shaped us is a worthy cause, undoubtedly, for Indian liberalism’s intellectual standard-bearer. For that standard to advance, though, we are forced to expect much, much more. On Sun, Oct 31, 2010 at 4:08 PM, Rajkamal Goswami wrote: > Hey Aalok > > Dont get so freaked man. It just happened that I didn't want to assume > in this case, and its my general principle that I refrain myself from > assuming, more so specially when I wish to rip apart someone. I have > neither any issues with people's mediocre expression skill/knowledge > of human language nor do I judge anyone based on their writing skills. > I myself am far from efficient in English. And if you care, skills, > efficiency, proficiency expertise are all gauged on a relative scale. > So please don't freak out for things which I didn't mean. > > rajkamal > > On 10/31/10, Aalok Aima wrote: >> rajkamal >> >> he certainly meant "cheap publicity" and it is surprising that you need that >> clarified >> >> maybe you are not aware that there are many many millions from india who are >> not proficient in english grammar and spellings ...... quite often they are >> likely to use the phonetics of the alphabet when they write in english >> ...... spellings might go awry but they manage to express themselves >> >> there is an unfortunate tendency in some to criticise or blatantly make fun >> of or subtly poke fun at those people who's accent, annunciation or >> spellings in the english language do not meet their standards >> >> .......... aalok aima >> >> --- On Sun, 10/31/10, Rajkamal Goswami wrote: >> >> >> From: Rajkamal Goswami >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] ARUNDHATI - PUBLICITY HUNGER >> To: "Bipin Trivedi" >> Cc: "sarai-list" >> Date: Sunday, October 31, 2010, 11:58 AM >> >> >> Dear Trivediji, >> >> "she is just after negative and chip publicity" >> >> I wish to strongly contradict this view of yours. But before I do that >> can you explain what do you mean by 'chip; here? >> >> Rajkamal >> >> On 10/31/10, Bipin Trivedi wrote: >>> Guha says, "She's crazy. Arundhati Roy has become a joke, a publicity >>> fiend," Guha told Bangalore Mirror. "She hops from cause to cause, and >>> just >>> look at the company she's keeping ... the likes of Syed Ali Shah Geelani, >>> an >>> ultimate bigot who wants to keep women in purdah and bring in an Islamic >>> theocracy." >>> >>> While posting maoist topic discussion read my view on Arundhati as under: >>> (1) When asked the question to Arundhati that most of people hate your >>> views >>> and writing and believe your thought impractical. She replies, if whole of >>> India hate me I have to believe I am wrong. Then why you waiting for, >>> understand this and come back from your wrong belief now. This proves that >>> she is just after negative and chip publicity. (2) Even government wants >>> Arundhati to be mediator between the government and maoist, but she >>> denies. >>> This is also creates doubt on her sincerity. What I think, she wants just >>> mere publicity out of this and wants to create a show that she worried of >>> tribal! By that way, she wants to increase sale of her books and reader >>> audience. >>> >>> Same thing applicable now also. Kashmir problem is there since almost >>> after >>> independence and its intensity increased since 2 decades, but I have not >>> heard any comment earlier for this issue. So, why now? She always remain >>> of >>> search of current hot topics and sensitized it to catch attention of media >>> just for mere chip publicity. Dear Tara, you are right, after her shared >>> stage with crook Geelani, many like you became her critics. >>> >>> Thanks >>> Bipin Trivedi >>> >>> >>> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe >>> in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> -- >> Rajkamal >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe >> in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> > > > -- > Rajkamal > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From indersalim at gmail.com Sun Oct 31 16:19:33 2010 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 16:19:33 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] WHO IS AFRAID OF ARUNDHATI ROY? In-Reply-To: References: <011A4D8580E642788C0CA251DB89B39D@tara> Message-ID: thanks dear ARB not holding brief for SJ, but quoting Biblical saying to justify comments is again leaving something unresolved. with due regards to you, do you know who quote holy scriptures often;they say it is the devil so be careful. sentimentality will not take us too far, it actually hampers the pace being cool is a craft, i am still learning love is On Sun, Oct 31, 2010 at 3:19 PM, Aditya Raj Baul wrote: > Dear Inder Salim and TaraPrakash, > > I was just showing Sonia Jabbar a piece of her own style. She had shut > me up in this cheap, condescending way when I simply asked her why she > was not holding the India's state's acts in Kashmir to the same > rigorous tests that she was putting the Kashmiri leadership to. I am > all for respectful disagreement and reasonable engagement and do not > wish to contribute to the prevalent culture of malevolent name-calling > on this esteemed list. I just wanted to show Sonia Jabbar, as an > aberration, the meaning of the Biblical saying, ''Do unto others as > you would have them do unto you'. The reference here, if you haven't > followed, is on another thread, where Sonia Jabbar was engaged in a > dialogue with Shuddhabrata Sengupta. I urge you to go through that > exchange again. > > I apologise to you, Inder Salim and TaraPrakash, and to anyone else > for whom this left a bad taste in the mouth. But as regards with Sonia > Jabbar I think the purpose has been served. > > Also, I'm not speaking out of anger, but out of amusement to see Sonia > Jabbar bereft of answers when the hypocrisy of her ever-changing > stance is exposed. > > best regards, > Aditya Raj Baul > > On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 10:22 PM, TaraPrakash wrote: >> How many do you have to offer? How about using some to scratch the part of >> your body that starts itching when you hear Sonia's saner questions, you >> villain of "Father Son and Holy War?" If we go in to the nuances of your >> unsolicited offers it is worse suggestion than anyone made on Ms. Roy. And >> yet Gods haven't said a word. >> >> Isn't it true now that you get admonished only if you are espousing a >> different view, if you are throwing up the same stuff as entrenched you can >> get away with murder on this list? >> >> Please Sonia don't give up because of these rude nationalists and >> masculinist delinquents. We need a true perspective, not polluted by those >> who make money for speaking in favor of one of the 2 sides. >> >> You just asked a question and these men's backsides went on fire. Amazing. >> >> Sorry, but I can't stand those who can't stand the critique. >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aditya Raj Baul" >> >> To: "reader-list" >> Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2010 1:16 AM >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] WHO IS AFRAID OF ARUNDHATI ROY? >> >> >>> awwww poor girl you never understand questions. would you like another >>> candy? >>> >>> On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 10:41 AM, SJabbar wrote: >>>> >>>> Dear Parvaiz, >>>> I don't understand your big question. Do you not make a distinction >>>> between >>>> the Kashmiri judiciary and the Indian judiciary, and between the IPC and >>>> the >>>> RPC? Please clarify. >>>> Sincerely, >>>> Sonia >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 30/10/10 9:32 AM, "Parvaiz Bukhari" wrote: >>>> >>>>> Samvit this is a big question you must ask ypourself....why has the >>>>> indian >>>> >>>> judiciary failed to "perform" in Kashmir unlike >>>> elsewhere in the >>>>> >>>>> examples u give? Or, you are saying the judiciary is also >>>> >>>> run by the >>>>> >>>>> separatists? >>>> >>>> On 30 October 2010 09:19, Samvit wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Parvaiz, >>>>> The fact of the matter is that Indian media does not parrot the >>>>> language of >>>>> the fanatics (either hindu or muslim) unlike the "Greater >>>>> Kashmirs" of the >>>>> Valley where the word Pandit is an anathema. Try and pick >>>>> up any magazine or >>>>> newspaper from the Valley and all they do it glorify >>>>> >>>>> separatism/terrorism/extremism. It seems they have become the new towers >>>>> of >>>>> >>>>> capitalistic Kashmir where money is the opium of the "classes". Selling >>>>> a >>>>> >>>>> newspaper is as good as selling a toothbrush. >>>>> Indian judiciary, over the >>>>> years has done a good (if not excellent) job and >>>>> convicted people in all >>>>> kinds of crimes. An example being the case against >>>>> the former Gujarat Home >>>>> Minister Amit Shah. In Kashmir not a single case >>>>> against the Pandits has >>>>> seen the light of the day. Bitta Karata is out in >>>>> the open. Perhaps you >>>>> should have written a piece about him. So ironical you >>>>> talk about >>>>> "surviving". >>>>> >>>>> Here, the opressor is trying to prove that he is the >>>>> oppressed. >>>>> >>>>> People may write an epic of Gilgamish in Arundhati's honor but >>>>> then it will >>>>> be as slanderous as the courteisns who used to call Aurangzeb- >>>>> "Oh, king of >>>>> kings, oh pinnacle of the mercy........." >>>>> -Samvit >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On >>>>> Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 8:31 AM, Parvaiz Bukhari >>>> > >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Anxiously waiting for the fear to spread more so that more may >>>>> >>>>> survive >>>>>> >>>>>> Indian politicians, media and the court historians of the >>>>> >>>>> day... >>>>>> >>>>>> On 30 October 2010 05:46, Pheeta Ram >>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> > Some people on this list are afraid of 'Arundhati Roy - the >>>>> >>>>> joke' ( BTW, >>>>>> >>>>>> a >>>>>> > joke is not a joke) because they are afraid of laughing >>>>> >>>>> for obvious >>>>>> >>>>>> > reasons: >>>>>> > >>>>>> > a) they are afraid because some other >>>>> >>>>> people simply love her and are not >>>>>> >>>>>> > afraid to confess that >>>>>> > b) they >>>>> >>>>> are afraid because she used to visit some upper-class gym in >>>>>> >>>>>> skimpy >>>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> clothing >>>>>> >>>>>> > c) they are afraid because she married twice and is finally >>>>> >>>>> officially >>>>>> >>>>>> > single >>>>>> > d) they are afraid because she supports maoists >>>>> >>>>> and for them maoist is a >>>>>> >>>>>> > term of abuse >>>>>> > e) they are afraid because >>>>> >>>>> she supports the Aazadi of Kashmiri people >>>>>> >>>>>> from >>>>>> > the repressive Indian >>>>> >>>>> state >>>>>> >>>>>> > f) they are afraid because she writes bewitchingly beautiful prose >>>>> >>>>> for >>>>>> >>>>>> > subversive, anti-national purposes >>>>>> > g) they are afraid because >>>>> >>>>> they think she is publicity hungry >>>>>> >>>>>> > h) they are afraid because she is some >>>>> >>>>> day certainly going to win the >>>>>> >>>>>> Nobel >>>>>> > Prize >>>>>> > i) they are afraid >>>>> >>>>> because she is simply beautiful in those curly hair >>>>>> >>>>>> and >>>>>> > that mellow >>>>> >>>>> childlike voice; and those mesmerizingly wondrous eyes which >>>>>> >>>>>> > are >>>>>> > not >>>>> >>>>> afraid to sing for you the serenades of freedom >>>>>> >>>>>> > j) they are afraid >>>>> >>>>> because they cannot NOTREAD what she writes in a 32 >>>>>> >>>>>> page >>>>>> > long essay >>>>> >>>>> after walking with the comrades in the jungles of Dantewada >>>>>> >>>>>> > k) they are >>>>> >>>>> afraid because the Indian state is now terribly scared of >>>>>> >>>>>> > putting her in >>>>> >>>>> jail for that shall certainly fetch her the Nobel Prize >>>>>> >>>>>> and >>>>>> > win >>>>> >>>>> Kashmir the Aazadi >>>>>> >>>>>> > l) they are afraid because she shared dais with SASG >>>>> >>>>> and made him >>>>>> >>>>>> realize >>>>>> > that Kashmiris are not alone in their struggle >>>>> >>>>> and also that Kashmiris >>>>>> >>>>>> also >>>>>> > need to know that there is a wider world >>>>> >>>>> surrounding them that is also >>>>>> >>>>>> > struggling and that they need to >>>>> >>>>> acknowledge it and support it; and that >>>>>> >>>>>> > the >>>>>> > Kashmiris have the >>>>> >>>>> histories of India and Pakistan ( both collective and >>>>>> >>>>>> > separate) before >>>>> >>>>> them to take strict lessons from, to fashion a >>>>>> >>>>>> > nation-state >>>>>> > that >>>>> >>>>> does justice to the sacrifices of the people who have fought, are >>>>>> >>>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> fighting and shall continue fighting for Kashmir; and that all struggles >>>>>> >>>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> against the tyrant are essentially connected >>>>>> >>>>>> > m)they are afraid because >>>>> >>>>> she hops from one issue to another ( Narmada >>>>>> >>>>>> > >>Maoists>>Kashmir>>which >>>>> >>>>> next?) >>>>>> >>>>>> > n) they are afraid because she goes against their normative >>>>> >>>>> definitions >>>>>> >>>>>> of >>>>>> > beauty and gender >>>>>> > o) they are afraid because 'even >>>>> >>>>> a rickshawala' is praising her saying >>>>>> >>>>>> that >>>>>> > she is a 'pseudo >>>>> >>>>> intellectual' (?) (Isn't it a pity that a rickshawala >>>>>> >>>>>> of >>>>>> > such a >>>>> >>>>> potential is not on the sarai list?). >>>>>> >>>>>> > p) they are afraid because the >>>>> >>>>> Indian media -the stooges of Indian state >>>>>> >>>>>> - >>>>>> > don't know what to do with >>>>> >>>>> her (even supremely articulate ones from the >>>>>> >>>>>> > media (like Karan Thapar) >>>>> >>>>> make an ass of themselves while interviewing >>>>>> >>>>>> her) >>>>>> > q) they are afraid >>>>> >>>>> because she spits on their faces and is not wee bit >>>>>> >>>>>> > apologetic about it >>>>> >>>>> because she knows that they deserve it and that its >>>>>> >>>>>> her >>>>>> > duty to do >>>>> >>>>> that >>>>>> >>>>>> > r) they are afraid because she is fast becoming a role model for >>>>> >>>>> the >>>>>> >>>>>> > beautiful, well-connected upper-class convent educated women who >>>>> >>>>> are >>>>>> >>>>>> > devouring her from cover to cover secretively like mills-and-boons >>>>> >>>>> even >>>>>> >>>>>> in >>>>>> > their bathrooms ( so that their businessmen fathers and social >>>>> >>>>> butterfly >>>>>> >>>>>> > mothers don't catch them reading her) and dreaming about being >>>>> >>>>> her in >>>>>> >>>>>> their >>>>>> > fantasy worlds (one of them confessed to me) ( in this >>>>> >>>>> manner the >>>>>> >>>>>> > phenomenon >>>>>> > called Arundhati becomes a past-master in >>>>> >>>>> reverse engineering) >>>>>> >>>>>> > s) they are afraid because she has made them realize >>>>> >>>>> that capitalism is >>>>>> >>>>>> > like >>>>>> > a deadly virus that shall one day surely eat >>>>> >>>>> itself away >>>>>> >>>>>> > t) they are afraid because she thinks with a beautiful heart >>>>> >>>>> (hence a >>>>>> >>>>>> > 'pseudo-intellectual') >>>>>> > u) they are afraid because she >>>>> >>>>> converts "aesthetics of deferral" ( one >>>>>> >>>>>> > scourge that afflicts most of the >>>>> >>>>> 'intellectuals' of todays world) into >>>>>> >>>>>> a >>>>>> > beautiful "aestheto-ethics of >>>>> >>>>> arrival", no mean feat i should say >>>>>> >>>>>> > v) they are afraid because they >>>>> >>>>> unconsciously compete with her and >>>>>> >>>>>> finding >>>>>> > her a sure winner are >>>>> >>>>> afraid to take the challenge >>>>>> >>>>>> > w) they are afraid because she challenges >>>>> >>>>> the very rationale of their >>>>>> >>>>>> being >>>>>> > and becoming >>>>>> > x) they are afraid >>>>> >>>>> because she happens to be a woman (like them) >>>>>> >>>>>> > y) they are afraid because >>>>> >>>>> the Indian state has done a beautiful job in >>>>>> >>>>>> > bringing them up on a steady >>>>> >>>>> diet of 'nationalist' propaganda through >>>>>> >>>>>> first >>>>>> > beginning with NCERT >>>>> >>>>> textbooks in brainwashing saloons called 'Schools' >>>>>> >>>>>> ( >>>>>> > the reason behind >>>>> >>>>> the popularity of Bollywood and Cricket) >>>>>> >>>>>> > z) they are afraid because >>>>> >>>>> despite their manifest hate for her they have >>>>>> >>>>>> > serious doubts that some >>>>> >>>>> where down there they love her too. >>>>>> >>>>>> > ... >>>>>> > >>>>>> > BTW, who is afraid of >>>>> >>>>> what comes after Z? Jump the gun please. >>>>>> >>>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>>> >>>>>> > reader-list: an open discussion >>>>> >>>>> list on media and the city. >>>>>> >>>>>> > Critiques & Collaborations >>>>>> > To subscribe: >>>>> >>>>> send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>>> >>>>>> > subscribe in the >>>>> >>>>> subject header. >>>>>> >>>>>> > To unsubscribe: >>>>> >>>>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>>> >>>>>> > List archive: >>>>> >>>>> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>>> >>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>>> >>>>>> reader-list: an open discussion >>>>> >>>>> list on media and the city. >>>>>> >>>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>>> To subscribe: >>>>> >>>>> send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>>> >>>>>> subscribe in the >>>>> >>>>> subject header. >>>>>> >>>>>> To unsubscribe: >>>>> >>>>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>>> >>>>>> List archive: >>>>> >>>>> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Samvit >>>>> Rawal >>>>> 9422037853 >>>>> >>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> To err is human; >>>>> to forgive, infrequent. >>>>> - Franklin P. >>>>> Adams >>>>> >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open >>>>> >>>>> discussion list on media and the city. >>>> >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To >>>>> >>>>> subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe >>>>> in >>>>> the subject header. >>>> >>>> To unsubscribe: >>>>> >>>>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> >>>> List archive: >>>>> >>>>> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> >>>> >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From aalok.aima at yahoo.com Sun Oct 31 17:07:29 2010 From: aalok.aima at yahoo.com (Aalok Aima) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 04:37:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Posters in Srinagar ask Hurriyat to review agitation Message-ID: <125857.33699.qm@web120208.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> interesting; both in content and in tone: "Jammu and Kashmir Islami Ittehad (union), has issued an ultimatum of two days to the Hurriyat to reconsider its decision on continuing the strikes. “In case the decision is not taken within the next two days, the situation would be different in the Valley,”   ......... aalok aima     http://www.tribuneindia.com/2010/20101031/j&k.htm#1   Posters in Srinagar ask Hurriyat to review agitation   Ehsan Fazili Tribune News Service   Srinagar, October 30 A day after the Durbar Move offices closed in the summer capital, posters appeared here today appealing the hardline Hurriyat faction to review its protest calendars in view of the problems being faced by a majority of people due to continuing strikes.   In an appeal to the APHC, the hitherto unknown organisation, Jammu and Kashmir Islami Ittehad (union), has issued an ultimatum of two days to the Hurriyat to reconsider its decision on continuing the strikes. “In case the decision is not taken within the next two days, the situation would be different in the Valley,” the statement added. These posters appeared in the central Lal Chowk and the posh market of Residency Road early this morning.   “We want to convey to the Hurriyat leaders that we have been observing shutdowns for the past four months,” the posters pasted on the walls and shutters of the shops stated. They added that the outcome of the shutdowns was only “unemployment, destruction and a bleak future for Kashmiris”. It urged the Hurriyat leadership to keep in view the economic condition and loss of human lives due to the ongoing situation.   It also blamed the stone throwers, whose number was very less and who were adding to the problems of the people by targeting patients in particular. “The number of stone throwers is between 100 and 125, who appear for their own interests in some areas,” the statement said. It added that these stone-throwers keep waiting for trouble to erupt so that they get benefited. Such elements were taking refuge under the Facebook and spread rumours to create trouble for their own benefits,” the statement said.   It referred to such incidents of rumours spread with the help of Facebook, which included the alleged rape of a girl in Palhalan, Pattan of Baramulla district and the reports about an indefinite Kashmir bandh called by Syed Ali Geelani, both of which were wrong. From sonia.jabbar at gmail.com Sun Oct 31 18:25:46 2010 From: sonia.jabbar at gmail.com (SJabbar) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 18:25:46 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] WHO IS AFRAID OF ARUNDHATI ROY? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear ARB, I am not bereft of answers. I simply don't know how to address your aggression since reasoned argument never seems to work with you. I had not meant to shut you up with my gentle teasing of your name and once I realized you were upset, I had apologized. But the apology seems to hold little meaning for you, which I find puzzling. You say I don't hold the Indian state's actions to the same rigorous tests that I put the Kashmiri leadership through. I had asked you to clarify your statement and that meant providing examples of what you consider to be my 'hypocrisy' or my 'soft' position on the Indian state. But you don't come back to this forum with proof but with further accusations, You accuse me of an ever-changing stance. Again, since this is a public forum, I feel you need to back up your assertions with something a little more substantive than offering me candy at the end of each exchange. BTW, I don't think it's a bad thing at all to change one's position or idea on something. Political situations are not static and it's down right silly to remain wedded to an idea just because you happened to have thought it was a good one to begin with. Sincerely, sj On 31/10/10 3:19 PM, "Aditya Raj Baul" wrote: > Dear Inder Salim and TaraPrakash, I was just showing Sonia Jabbar a piece of > her own style. She had shut me up in this cheap, condescending way when I > simply asked her why she was not holding the India's state's acts in Kashmir > to the same rigorous tests that she was putting the Kashmiri leadership to. I > am all for respectful disagreement and reasonable engagement and do not wish > to contribute to the prevalent culture of malevolent name-calling on this > esteemed list. I just wanted to show Sonia Jabbar, as an aberration, the > meaning of the Biblical saying, ''Do unto others as you would have them do > unto you'. The reference here, if you haven't followed, is on another thread, > where Sonia Jabbar was engaged in a dialogue with Shuddhabrata Sengupta. I > urge you to go through that exchange again. I apologise to you, Inder Salim > and TaraPrakash, and to anyone else for whom this left a bad taste in the > mouth. But as regards with Sonia Jabbar I think the purpose has been > served. Also, I'm not speaking out of anger, but out of amusement to see > Sonia Jabbar bereft of answers when the hypocrisy of her ever-changing stance > is exposed. best regards, Aditya Raj Baul On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 10:22 PM, > TaraPrakash wrote: > How many do you have to offer? > How about using some to scratch the part of > your body that starts itching > when you hear Sonia's saner questions, you > villain of "Father Son and Holy > War?" If we go in to the nuances of your > unsolicited offers it is worse > suggestion than anyone made on Ms. Roy. And > yet Gods haven't said a > word. > > Isn't it true now that you get admonished only if you are espousing > a > different view, if you are throwing up the same stuff as entrenched you > can > get away with murder on this list? > > Please Sonia don't give up > because of these rude nationalists and > masculinist delinquents. We need a > true perspective, not polluted by those > who make money for speaking in favor > of one of the 2 sides. > > You just asked a question and these men's backsides > went on fire. Amazing. > > Sorry, but I can't stand those who can't stand the > critique. > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aditya Raj Baul" > > > To: "reader-list" > Sent: > Saturday, October 30, 2010 1:16 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] WHO IS AFRAID > OF ARUNDHATI ROY? > > >> awwww poor girl you never understand questions. would > you like another >> candy? >> >> On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 10:41 AM, SJabbar > wrote: >>> >>> Dear Parvaiz, >>> I don't understand > your big question. Do you not make a distinction >>> between >>> the Kashmiri > judiciary and the Indian judiciary, and between the IPC and >>> the >>> RPC? > Please clarify. >>> Sincerely, >>> Sonia >>> >>> >>> >>> On 30/10/10 9:32 AM, > "Parvaiz Bukhari" wrote: >>> >>>> Samvit this is a > big question you must ask ypourself....why has the >>>> indian >>> >>> > judiciary failed to "perform" in Kashmir unlike >>> elsewhere in the >>>> >>>> > examples u give? Or, you are saying the judiciary is also >>> >>> run by > the >>>> >>>> separatists? >>> >>> On 30 October 2010 09:19, Samvit > wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Parvaiz, >>>> The fact of the matter > is that Indian media does not parrot the >>>> language of >>>> the fanatics > (either hindu or muslim) unlike the "Greater >>>> Kashmirs" of the >>>> Valley > where the word Pandit is an anathema. Try and pick >>>> up any magazine > or >>>> newspaper from the Valley and all they do it glorify >>>> >>>> > separatism/terrorism/extremism. It seems they have become the new towers >>>> > of >>>> >>>> capitalistic Kashmir where money is the opium of the "classes". > Selling >>>> a >>>> >>>> newspaper is as good as selling a toothbrush. >>>> > Indian judiciary, over the >>>> years has done a good (if not excellent) job > and >>>> convicted people in all >>>> kinds of crimes. An example being the > case against >>>> the former Gujarat Home >>>> Minister Amit Shah. In Kashmir > not a single case >>>> against the Pandits has >>>> seen the light of the day. > Bitta Karata is out in >>>> the open. Perhaps you >>>> should have written a > piece about him. So ironical you >>>> talk about >>>> "surviving". >>>> >>>> > Here, the opressor is trying to prove that he is the >>>> oppressed. >>>> >>>> > People may write an epic of Gilgamish in Arundhati's honor but >>>> then it > will >>>> be as slanderous as the courteisns who used to call Aurangzeb- >>>> > "Oh, king of >>>> kings, oh pinnacle of the mercy........." >>>> > -Samvit >>>> >>>> >>>> On >>>> Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 8:31 AM, Parvaiz Bukhari > >>> > >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Anxiously waiting for > the fear to spread more so that more may >>>> >>>> survive >>>>> >>>>> Indian > politicians, media and the court historians of the >>>> >>>> > day... >>>>> >>>>> On 30 October 2010 05:46, Pheeta Ram > >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> > Some people on this list > are afraid of 'Arundhati Roy - the >>>> >>>> joke' ( BTW, >>>>> >>>>> a >>>>> > > joke is not a joke) because they are afraid of laughing >>>> >>>> for > obvious >>>>> >>>>> > reasons: >>>>> > >>>>> > a) they are afraid because some > other >>>> >>>> people simply love her and are not >>>>> >>>>> > afraid to > confess that >>>>> > b) they >>>> >>>> are afraid because she used to visit > some upper-class gym in >>>>> >>>>> skimpy >>>>> > >>>> >>>> > clothing >>>>> >>>>> > c) they are afraid because she married twice and is > finally >>>> >>>> officially >>>>> >>>>> > single >>>>> > d) they are afraid > because she supports maoists >>>> >>>> and for them maoist is a >>>>> >>>>> > > term of abuse >>>>> > e) they are afraid because >>>> >>>> she supports the > Aazadi of Kashmiri people >>>>> >>>>> from >>>>> > the repressive > Indian >>>> >>>> state >>>>> >>>>> > f) they are afraid because she writes > bewitchingly beautiful prose >>>> >>>> for >>>>> >>>>> > subversive, > anti-national purposes >>>>> > g) they are afraid because >>>> >>>> they think > she is publicity hungry >>>>> >>>>> > h) they are afraid because she is > some >>>> >>>> day certainly going to win the >>>>> >>>>> Nobel >>>>> > > Prize >>>>> > i) they are afraid >>>> >>>> because she is simply beautiful in > those curly hair >>>>> >>>>> and >>>>> > that mellow >>>> >>>> childlike > voice; and those mesmerizingly wondrous eyes which >>>>> >>>>> > are >>>>> > > not >>>> >>>> afraid to sing for you the serenades of freedom >>>>> >>>>> > j) > they are afraid >>>> >>>> because they cannot NOTREAD what she writes in a > 32 >>>>> >>>>> page >>>>> > long essay >>>> >>>> after walking with the > comrades in the jungles of Dantewada >>>>> >>>>> > k) they are >>>> >>>> > afraid because the Indian state is now terribly scared of >>>>> >>>>> > > putting her in >>>> >>>> jail for that shall certainly fetch her the Nobel > Prize >>>>> >>>>> and >>>>> > win >>>> >>>> Kashmir the Aazadi >>>>> >>>>> > > l) they are afraid because she shared dais with SASG >>>> >>>> and made > him >>>>> >>>>> realize >>>>> > that Kashmiris are not alone in their > struggle >>>> >>>> and also that Kashmiris >>>>> >>>>> also >>>>> > need to > know that there is a wider world >>>> >>>> surrounding them that is > also >>>>> >>>>> > struggling and that they need to >>>> >>>> acknowledge it > and support it; and that >>>>> >>>>> > the >>>>> > Kashmiris have > the >>>> >>>> histories of India and Pakistan ( both collective > and >>>>> >>>>> > separate) before >>>> >>>> them to take strict lessons from, > to fashion a >>>>> >>>>> > nation-state >>>>> > that >>>> >>>> does justice to > the sacrifices of the people who have fought, are >>>>> >>>>> > >>>> >>>> > fighting and shall continue fighting for Kashmir; and that all > struggles >>>>> >>>>> > >>>> >>>> against the tyrant are essentially > connected >>>>> >>>>> > m)they are afraid because >>>> >>>> she hops from one > issue to another ( Narmada >>>>> >>>>> > >>Maoists>>Kashmir>>which >>>> >>>> > next?) >>>>> >>>>> > n) they are afraid because she goes against their > normative >>>> >>>> definitions >>>>> >>>>> of >>>>> > beauty and gender >>>>> > > o) they are afraid because 'even >>>> >>>> a rickshawala' is praising her > saying >>>>> >>>>> that >>>>> > she is a 'pseudo >>>> >>>> intellectual' (?) > (Isn't it a pity that a rickshawala >>>>> >>>>> of >>>>> > such a >>>> >>>> > potential is not on the sarai list?). >>>>> >>>>> > p) they are afraid because > the >>>> >>>> Indian media -the stooges of Indian state >>>>> >>>>> - >>>>> > > don't know what to do with >>>> >>>> her (even supremely articulate ones from > the >>>>> >>>>> > media (like Karan Thapar) >>>> >>>> make an ass of > themselves while interviewing >>>>> >>>>> her) >>>>> > q) they are > afraid >>>> >>>> because she spits on their faces and is not wee > bit >>>>> >>>>> > apologetic about it >>>> >>>> because she knows that they > deserve it and that its >>>>> >>>>> her >>>>> > duty to do >>>> >>>> > that >>>>> >>>>> > r) they are afraid because she is fast becoming a role > model for >>>> >>>> the >>>>> >>>>> > beautiful, well-connected upper-class > convent educated women who >>>> >>>> are >>>>> >>>>> > devouring her from > cover to cover secretively like mills-and-boons >>>> >>>> even >>>>> >>>>> > in >>>>> > their bathrooms ( so that their businessmen fathers and > social >>>> >>>> butterfly >>>>> >>>>> > mothers don't catch them reading her) > and dreaming about being >>>> >>>> her in >>>>> >>>>> their >>>>> > fantasy > worlds (one of them confessed to me) ( in this >>>> >>>> manner > the >>>>> >>>>> > phenomenon >>>>> > called Arundhati becomes a past-master > in >>>> >>>> reverse engineering) >>>>> >>>>> > s) they are afraid because she > has made them realize >>>> >>>> that capitalism is >>>>> >>>>> > like >>>>> > > a deadly virus that shall one day surely eat >>>> >>>> itself away >>>>> >>>>> > > t) they are afraid because she thinks with a beautiful heart >>>> >>>> > (hence a >>>>> >>>>> > 'pseudo-intellectual') >>>>> > u) they are afraid > because she >>>> >>>> converts "aesthetics of deferral" ( one >>>>> >>>>> > > scourge that afflicts most of the >>>> >>>> 'intellectuals' of todays world) > into >>>>> >>>>> a >>>>> > beautiful "aestheto-ethics of >>>> >>>> arrival", > no mean feat i should say >>>>> >>>>> > v) they are afraid because > they >>>> >>>> unconsciously compete with her and >>>>> >>>>> finding >>>>> > > her a sure winner are >>>> >>>> afraid to take the challenge >>>>> >>>>> > w) > they are afraid because she challenges >>>> >>>> the very rationale of > their >>>>> >>>>> being >>>>> > and becoming >>>>> > x) they are > afraid >>>> >>>> because she happens to be a woman (like them) >>>>> >>>>> > > y) they are afraid because >>>> >>>> the Indian state has done a beautiful job > in >>>>> >>>>> > bringing them up on a steady >>>> >>>> diet of 'nationalist' > propaganda through >>>>> >>>>> first >>>>> > beginning with NCERT >>>> >>>> > textbooks in brainwashing saloons called 'Schools' >>>>> >>>>> ( >>>>> > the > reason behind >>>> >>>> the popularity of Bollywood and Cricket) >>>>> >>>>> > > z) they are afraid because >>>> >>>> despite their manifest hate for her they > have >>>>> >>>>> > serious doubts that some >>>> >>>> where down there they > love her too. >>>>> >>>>> > ... >>>>> > >>>>> > BTW, who is afraid > of >>>> >>>> what comes after Z? Jump the gun please. >>>>> >>>>> > >>>> >>>> > _________________________________________ >>>>> >>>>> > reader-list: an open > discussion >>>> >>>> list on media and the city. >>>>> >>>>> > Critiques & > Collaborations >>>>> > To subscribe: >>>> >>>> send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>> >>>>> > subscribe in the >>>> >>>> > subject header. >>>>> >>>>> > To unsubscribe: >>>> >>>> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>> >>>>> > List > archive: >>>> >>>> > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>> >>>> > _________________________________________ >>>>> >>>>> reader-list: an open > discussion >>>> >>>> list on media and the city. >>>>> >>>>> Critiques & > Collaborations >>>>> To subscribe: >>>> >>>> send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>> >>>>> subscribe in the >>>> >>>> > subject header. >>>>> >>>>> To unsubscribe: >>>> >>>> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>> >>>>> List > archive: >>>> >>>> > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> > -- >>>> Samvit >>>> Rawal >>>> 9422037853 >>>> >>>> > ----------------------------------------------------------- >>>> To err is > human; >>>> to forgive, infrequent. >>>> - Franklin P. >>>> Adams >>>> >>> > _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open >>>> >>>> > discussion list on media and the city. >>> >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> > To >>>> >>>> subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe >>>> in >>>> the subject header. >>> >>> To unsubscribe: >>>> >>>> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> >>> List > archive: >>>> >>>> > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >>> >>> > _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion > list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the > subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> > _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion > list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the > subject header. >> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _______________________ > __________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To > unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From sonia.jabbar at gmail.com Sun Oct 31 19:00:42 2010 From: sonia.jabbar at gmail.com (SJabbar) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 19:00:42 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] WHO IS AFRAID OF ARUNDHATI ROY? In-Reply-To: <011A4D8580E642788C0CA251DB89B39D@tara> Message-ID: Thank you, Tara, Actually the reason I had asked Parvaiz Bukhari to clarify his rather breezy questioning of Samvit on the failure of the Indian judiciary in J&K is because he knows as well as I do that the Kashmiri judiciary is as culpable in granting impunity to rights abusers as their counterparts in the plains. Of course, it is easier to heap scorn on me than admit that or admit in this forum that a statutory body of the Kashmir Bar Association is also a constituent of the All Parties Hurriyat Conference and therefore quite likely to be biased in favour of the separatist groups. Sincerely, sj On 30/10/10 10:22 PM, "TaraPrakash" wrote: > How many do you have to offer? How about using some to scratch the part of > your body that starts itching when you hear Sonia's saner questions, you > villain of "Father Son and Holy War?" If we go in to the nuances of your > unsolicited offers it is worse suggestion than anyone made on Ms. Roy. And > yet Gods haven't said a word. Isn't it true now that you get admonished only > if you are espousing a different view, if you are throwing up the same stuff > as entrenched you can get away with murder on this list? Please Sonia don't > give up because of these rude nationalists and masculinist delinquents. We > need a true perspective, not polluted by those who make money for speaking in > favor of one of the 2 sides. You just asked a question and these men's > backsides went on fire. Amazing. Sorry, but I can't stand those who can't > stand the critique. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aditya Raj Baul" > To: "reader-list" Sent: > Saturday, October 30, 2010 1:16 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] WHO IS AFRAID OF > ARUNDHATI ROY? > awwww poor girl you never understand questions. would you > like another > candy? > > On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 10:41 AM, SJabbar > wrote: >> Dear Parvaiz, >> I don't understand your > big question. Do you not make a distinction >> between >> the Kashmiri > judiciary and the Indian judiciary, and between the IPC and >> the >> RPC? > Please clarify. >> Sincerely, >> Sonia >> >> >> >> On 30/10/10 9:32 AM, > "Parvaiz Bukhari" wrote: >> >>> Samvit this is a > big question you must ask ypourself....why has the >>> indian >> judiciary > failed to "perform" in Kashmir unlike >> elsewhere in the >>> examples u give? > Or, you are saying the judiciary is also >> run by the >>> separatists? >> >> > On 30 October 2010 09:19, Samvit wrote: >> >>> >>> > Parvaiz, >>> The fact of the matter is that Indian media does not parrot > the >>> language of >>> the fanatics (either hindu or muslim) unlike the > "Greater >>> Kashmirs" of the >>> Valley where the word Pandit is an anathema. > Try and pick >>> up any magazine or >>> newspaper from the Valley and all they > do it glorify >>> >>> separatism/terrorism/extremism. It seems they have > become the new towers >>> of >>> >>> capitalistic Kashmir where money is the > opium of the "classes". Selling >>> a >>> >>> newspaper is as good as selling > a toothbrush. >>> Indian judiciary, over the >>> years has done a good (if not > excellent) job and >>> convicted people in all >>> kinds of crimes. An example > being the case against >>> the former Gujarat Home >>> Minister Amit Shah. In > Kashmir not a single case >>> against the Pandits has >>> seen the light of > the day. Bitta Karata is out in >>> the open. Perhaps you >>> should have > written a piece about him. So ironical you >>> talk about >>> > "surviving". >>> >>> Here, the opressor is trying to prove that he is the >>> > oppressed. >>> >>> People may write an epic of Gilgamish in Arundhati's honor > but >>> then it will >>> be as slanderous as the courteisns who used to call > Aurangzeb- >>> "Oh, king of >>> kings, oh pinnacle of the mercy........." >>> > -Samvit >>> >>> >>> On >>> Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 8:31 AM, Parvaiz Bukhari > >> > >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Anxiously waiting for the > fear to spread more so that more may >>> survive >>>> Indian politicians, > media and the court historians of the >>> day... >>>> >>>> On 30 October 2010 > 05:46, Pheeta Ram >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> > Some people on > this list are afraid of 'Arundhati Roy - the >>> joke' ( BTW, >>>> a >>>> > > joke is not a joke) because they are afraid of laughing >>> for obvious >>>> > > reasons: >>>> > >>>> > a) they are afraid because some other >>> people simply > love her and are not >>>> > afraid to confess that >>>> > b) they >>> are > afraid because she used to visit some upper-class gym in >>>> skimpy >>>> > > >>> clothing >>>> > c) they are afraid because she married twice and is > finally >>> officially >>>> > single >>>> > d) they are afraid because she > supports maoists >>> and for them maoist is a >>>> > term of abuse >>>> > e) > they are afraid because >>> she supports the Aazadi of Kashmiri people >>>> > from >>>> > the repressive Indian >>> state >>>> > f) they are afraid because > she writes bewitchingly beautiful prose >>> for >>>> > subversive, > anti-national purposes >>>> > g) they are afraid because >>> they think she is > publicity hungry >>>> > h) they are afraid because she is some >>> day > certainly going to win the >>>> Nobel >>>> > Prize >>>> > i) they are > afraid >>> because she is simply beautiful in those curly hair >>>> and >>>> > > that mellow >>> childlike voice; and those mesmerizingly wondrous eyes > which >>>> > are >>>> > not >>> afraid to sing for you the serenades of > freedom >>>> > j) they are afraid >>> because they cannot NOTREAD what she > writes in a 32 >>>> page >>>> > long essay >>> after walking with the comrades > in the jungles of Dantewada >>>> > k) they are >>> afraid because the Indian > state is now terribly scared of >>>> > putting her in >>> jail for that shall > certainly fetch her the Nobel Prize >>>> and >>>> > win >>> Kashmir the > Aazadi >>>> > l) they are afraid because she shared dais with SASG >>> and > made him >>>> realize >>>> > that Kashmiris are not alone in their > struggle >>> and also that Kashmiris >>>> also >>>> > need to know that there > is a wider world >>> surrounding them that is also >>>> > struggling and that > they need to >>> acknowledge it and support it; and that >>>> > the >>>> > > Kashmiris have the >>> histories of India and Pakistan ( both collective > and >>>> > separate) before >>> them to take strict lessons from, to fashion > a >>>> > nation-state >>>> > that >>> does justice to the sacrifices of the > people who have fought, are >>>> > >>> fighting and shall continue fighting > for Kashmir; and that all struggles >>>> > >>> against the tyrant are > essentially connected >>>> > m)they are afraid because >>> she hops from one > issue to another ( Narmada >>>> > >>Maoists>>Kashmir>>which >>> next?) >>>> > > n) they are afraid because she goes against their normative >>> > definitions >>>> of >>>> > beauty and gender >>>> > o) they are afraid because > 'even >>> a rickshawala' is praising her saying >>>> that >>>> > she is a > 'pseudo >>> intellectual' (?) (Isn't it a pity that a rickshawala >>>> of >>>> > > such a >>> potential is not on the sarai list?). >>>> > p) they are afraid > because the >>> Indian media -the stooges of Indian state >>>> - >>>> > don't > know what to do with >>> her (even supremely articulate ones from the >>>> > > media (like Karan Thapar) >>> make an ass of themselves while > interviewing >>>> her) >>>> > q) they are afraid >>> because she spits on > their faces and is not wee bit >>>> > apologetic about it >>> because she > knows that they deserve it and that its >>>> her >>>> > duty to do >>> > that >>>> > r) they are afraid because she is fast becoming a role model > for >>> the >>>> > beautiful, well-connected upper-class convent educated > women who >>> are >>>> > devouring her from cover to cover secretively like > mills-and-boons >>> even >>>> in >>>> > their bathrooms ( so that their > businessmen fathers and social >>> butterfly >>>> > mothers don't catch them > reading her) and dreaming about being >>> her in >>>> their >>>> > fantasy > worlds (one of them confessed to me) ( in this >>> manner the >>>> > > phenomenon >>>> > called Arundhati becomes a past-master in >>> reverse > engineering) >>>> > s) they are afraid because she has made them realize >>> > that capitalism is >>>> > like >>>> > a deadly virus that shall one day surely > eat >>> itself away >>>> > t) they are afraid because she thinks with a > beautiful heart >>> (hence a >>>> > 'pseudo-intellectual') >>>> > u) they are > afraid because she >>> converts "aesthetics of deferral" ( one >>>> > scourge > that afflicts most of the >>> 'intellectuals' of todays world) into >>>> > a >>>> > beautiful "aestheto-ethics of >>> arrival", no mean feat i should > say >>>> > v) they are afraid because they >>> unconsciously compete with her > and >>>> finding >>>> > her a sure winner are >>> afraid to take the > challenge >>>> > w) they are afraid because she challenges >>> the very > rationale of their >>>> being >>>> > and becoming >>>> > x) they are > afraid >>> because she happens to be a woman (like them) >>>> > y) they are > afraid because >>> the Indian state has done a beautiful job in >>>> > > bringing them up on a steady >>> diet of 'nationalist' propaganda through >>>> > first >>>> > beginning with NCERT >>> textbooks in brainwashing saloons called > 'Schools' >>>> ( >>>> > the reason behind >>> the popularity of Bollywood and > Cricket) >>>> > z) they are afraid because >>> despite their manifest hate for > her they have >>>> > serious doubts that some >>> where down there they love > her too. >>>> > ... >>>> > >>>> > BTW, who is afraid of >>> what comes after > Z? Jump the gun please. >>>> > >>> > _________________________________________ >>>> > reader-list: an open > discussion >>> list on media and the city. >>>> > Critiques & > Collaborations >>>> > To subscribe: >>> send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> > subscribe in the >>> subject > header. >>>> > To unsubscribe: >>> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> > List archive: >>> > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> >>> > _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open > discussion >>> list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & > Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: >>> send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> subscribe in the >>> subject > header. >>>> To unsubscribe: >>> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: >>> > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> > Samvit >>> Rawal >>> 9422037853 >>> >>> > ----------------------------------------------------------- >>> To err is > human; >>> to forgive, infrequent. >>> - Franklin P. >>> Adams >>> >> > _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open >>> > discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To >>> > subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe >>> > in >>> the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: >>> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: >>> > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> > _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion > list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the > subject header. >> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion > list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send > an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject > header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion > list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an > email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > header. To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From parvaizbukhari at gmail.com Sun Oct 31 20:32:20 2010 From: parvaizbukhari at gmail.com (Parvaiz Bukhari) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 20:32:20 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] WHO IS AFRAID OF ARUNDHATI ROY? In-Reply-To: References: <011A4D8580E642788C0CA251DB89B39D@tara> Message-ID: Let us all understand that it is not the lawyers who decide the outcome of cases, it is the judges. There are groups of lawyers everywhere who refuse to even fight or allow others to fight or appear in cases of regarding people or organisations of particular religious community. Perhaps long silence about issues like that have finally resulted in courts adjudicating on cases of far reaching implications on faith and for satisfying the 'collective national conscience'. And, rights abusers get immunity/impunity through laws like AFSPA etc And, I still haven't been enlightened vis a vis what 'Kashmiri judiciary' means. BTW, Samvit was asked the same question and what is now being rightly called the Indian Judiciary was referred to as Kashmiri judiciary... On 31 October 2010 19:00, SJabbar wrote: > Thank you, Tara, > Actually the reason I had asked Parvaiz Bukhari to clarify his rather > breezy > questioning of Samvit on the failure of the Indian judiciary in J&K is > because he knows as well as I do that the Kashmiri judiciary is as culpable > in granting impunity to rights abusers as their counterparts in the plains. > Of course, it is easier to heap scorn on me than admit that or admit in > this > forum that a statutory body of the Kashmir Bar Association is also a > constituent of the All Parties Hurriyat Conference and therefore quite > likely to be biased in favour of the separatist groups. > Sincerely, > sj > > > > On 30/10/10 10:22 PM, "TaraPrakash" wrote: > > > How many do you have to offer? How about using some to scratch the part > of > > > your body that starts itching when you hear Sonia's saner questions, you > > > villain of "Father Son and Holy War?" If we go in to the nuances of your > > > unsolicited offers it is worse suggestion than anyone made on Ms. Roy. And > > > yet Gods haven't said a word. > > Isn't it true now that you get admonished only > > if you are espousing a > different view, if you are throwing up the same stuff > > as entrenched you can > get away with murder on this list? > > Please Sonia don't > > give up because of these rude nationalists and > masculinist delinquents. We > > need a true perspective, not polluted by those > who make money for speaking in > > favor of one of the 2 sides. > > You just asked a question and these men's > > backsides went on fire. Amazing. > > Sorry, but I can't stand those who can't > > stand the critique. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Aditya Raj Baul" > > > To: "reader-list" > Sent: > > Saturday, October 30, 2010 1:16 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] WHO IS AFRAID OF > > ARUNDHATI ROY? > > > > awwww poor girl you never understand questions. would you > > like another > > candy? > > > > On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 10:41 AM, SJabbar > > wrote: > >> Dear Parvaiz, > >> I don't understand your > > big question. Do you not make a distinction > >> between > >> the Kashmiri > > judiciary and the Indian judiciary, and between the IPC and > >> the > >> RPC? > > Please clarify. > >> Sincerely, > >> Sonia > >> > >> > >> > >> On 30/10/10 9:32 AM, > > "Parvaiz Bukhari" wrote: > >> > >>> Samvit this is a > > big question you must ask ypourself....why has the > >>> indian > >> judiciary > > failed to "perform" in Kashmir unlike > >> elsewhere in the > >>> examples u give? > > Or, you are saying the judiciary is also > >> run by the > >>> separatists? > >> > >> > > On 30 October 2010 09:19, Samvit wrote: > >> > >>> > >>> > > Parvaiz, > >>> The fact of the matter is that Indian media does not parrot > > the > >>> language of > >>> the fanatics (either hindu or muslim) unlike the > > "Greater > >>> Kashmirs" of the > >>> Valley where the word Pandit is an anathema. > > Try and pick > >>> up any magazine or > >>> newspaper from the Valley and all they > > do it glorify > >>> > >>> separatism/terrorism/extremism. It seems they have > > become the new towers > >>> of > >>> > >>> capitalistic Kashmir where money is the > > opium of the "classes". Selling > >>> a > >>> > >>> newspaper is as good as selling > > a toothbrush. > >>> Indian judiciary, over the > >>> years has done a good (if not > > excellent) job and > >>> convicted people in all > >>> kinds of crimes. An example > > being the case against > >>> the former Gujarat Home > >>> Minister Amit Shah. In > > Kashmir not a single case > >>> against the Pandits has > >>> seen the light of > > the day. Bitta Karata is out in > >>> the open. Perhaps you > >>> should have > > written a piece about him. So ironical you > >>> talk about > >>> > > "surviving". > >>> > >>> Here, the opressor is trying to prove that he is the > >>> > > oppressed. > >>> > >>> People may write an epic of Gilgamish in Arundhati's honor > > but > >>> then it will > >>> be as slanderous as the courteisns who used to call > > Aurangzeb- > >>> "Oh, king of > >>> kings, oh pinnacle of the mercy........." > >>> > > -Samvit > >>> > >>> > >>> On > >>> Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 8:31 AM, Parvaiz Bukhari > > >>> > > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> Anxiously waiting for the > > fear to spread more so that more may > >>> survive > >>>> Indian politicians, > > media and the court historians of the > >>> day... > >>>> > >>>> On 30 October 2010 > > 05:46, Pheeta Ram > >>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > Some people on > > this list are afraid of 'Arundhati Roy - the > >>> joke' ( BTW, > >>>> a > >>>> > > > joke is not a joke) because they are afraid of laughing > >>> for obvious > >>>> > > > reasons: > >>>> > > >>>> > a) they are afraid because some other > >>> people simply > > love her and are not > >>>> > afraid to confess that > >>>> > b) they > >>> are > > afraid because she used to visit some upper-class gym in > >>>> skimpy > >>>> > > > > >>> clothing > >>>> > c) they are afraid because she married twice and is > > finally > >>> officially > >>>> > single > >>>> > d) they are afraid because she > > supports maoists > >>> and for them maoist is a > >>>> > term of abuse > >>>> > e) > > they are afraid because > >>> she supports the Aazadi of Kashmiri people > >>>> > > from > >>>> > the repressive Indian > >>> state > >>>> > f) they are afraid because > > she writes bewitchingly beautiful prose > >>> for > >>>> > subversive, > > anti-national purposes > >>>> > g) they are afraid because > >>> they think she is > > publicity hungry > >>>> > h) they are afraid because she is some > >>> day > > certainly going to win the > >>>> Nobel > >>>> > Prize > >>>> > i) they are > > afraid > >>> because she is simply beautiful in those curly hair > >>>> and > >>>> > > > that mellow > >>> childlike voice; and those mesmerizingly wondrous eyes > > which > >>>> > are > >>>> > not > >>> afraid to sing for you the serenades of > > freedom > >>>> > j) they are afraid > >>> because they cannot NOTREAD what she > > writes in a 32 > >>>> page > >>>> > long essay > >>> after walking with the comrades > > in the jungles of Dantewada > >>>> > k) they are > >>> afraid because the Indian > > state is now terribly scared of > >>>> > putting her in > >>> jail for that shall > > certainly fetch her the Nobel Prize > >>>> and > >>>> > win > >>> Kashmir the > > Aazadi > >>>> > l) they are afraid because she shared dais with SASG > >>> and > > made him > >>>> realize > >>>> > that Kashmiris are not alone in their > > struggle > >>> and also that Kashmiris > >>>> also > >>>> > need to know that there > > is a wider world > >>> surrounding them that is also > >>>> > struggling and that > > they need to > >>> acknowledge it and support it; and that > >>>> > the > >>>> > > > Kashmiris have the > >>> histories of India and Pakistan ( both collective > > and > >>>> > separate) before > >>> them to take strict lessons from, to fashion > > a > >>>> > nation-state > >>>> > that > >>> does justice to the sacrifices of the > > people who have fought, are > >>>> > > >>> fighting and shall continue fighting > > for Kashmir; and that all struggles > >>>> > > >>> against the tyrant are > > essentially connected > >>>> > m)they are afraid because > >>> she hops from one > > issue to another ( Narmada > >>>> > >>Maoists>>Kashmir>>which > >>> next?) > >>>> > > > n) they are afraid because she goes against their normative > >>> > > definitions > >>>> of > >>>> > beauty and gender > >>>> > o) they are afraid because > > 'even > >>> a rickshawala' is praising her saying > >>>> that > >>>> > she is a > > 'pseudo > >>> intellectual' (?) (Isn't it a pity that a rickshawala > >>>> of > >>>> > > > such a > >>> potential is not on the sarai list?). > >>>> > p) they are afraid > > because the > >>> Indian media -the stooges of Indian state > >>>> - > >>>> > don't > > know what to do with > >>> her (even supremely articulate ones from the > >>>> > > > media (like Karan Thapar) > >>> make an ass of themselves while > > interviewing > >>>> her) > >>>> > q) they are afraid > >>> because she spits on > > their faces and is not wee bit > >>>> > apologetic about it > >>> because she > > knows that they deserve it and that its > >>>> her > >>>> > duty to do > >>> > > that > >>>> > r) they are afraid because she is fast becoming a role model > > for > >>> the > >>>> > beautiful, well-connected upper-class convent educated > > women who > >>> are > >>>> > devouring her from cover to cover secretively like > > mills-and-boons > >>> even > >>>> in > >>>> > their bathrooms ( so that their > > businessmen fathers and social > >>> butterfly > >>>> > mothers don't catch them > > reading her) and dreaming about being > >>> her in > >>>> their > >>>> > fantasy > > worlds (one of them confessed to me) ( in this > >>> manner the > >>>> > > > phenomenon > >>>> > called Arundhati becomes a past-master in > >>> reverse > > engineering) > >>>> > s) they are afraid because she has made them realize > >>> > > that capitalism is > >>>> > like > >>>> > a deadly virus that shall one day surely > > eat > >>> itself away > >>>> > t) they are afraid because she thinks with a > > beautiful heart > >>> (hence a > >>>> > 'pseudo-intellectual') > >>>> > u) they are > > afraid because she > >>> converts "aesthetics of deferral" ( one > >>>> > scourge > > that afflicts most of the > >>> 'intellectuals' of todays world) into > >>>> > > a > >>>> > beautiful "aestheto-ethics of > >>> arrival", no mean feat i should > > say > >>>> > v) they are afraid because they > >>> unconsciously compete with her > > and > >>>> finding > >>>> > her a sure winner are > >>> afraid to take the > > challenge > >>>> > w) they are afraid because she challenges > >>> the very > > rationale of their > >>>> being > >>>> > and becoming > >>>> > x) they are > > afraid > >>> because she happens to be a woman (like them) > >>>> > y) they are > > afraid because > >>> the Indian state has done a beautiful job in > >>>> > > > bringing them up on a steady > >>> diet of 'nationalist' propaganda through > >>>> > > first > >>>> > beginning with NCERT > >>> textbooks in brainwashing saloons called > > 'Schools' > >>>> ( > >>>> > the reason behind > >>> the popularity of Bollywood and > > Cricket) > >>>> > z) they are afraid because > >>> despite their manifest hate for > > her they have > >>>> > serious doubts that some > >>> where down there they love > > her too. > >>>> > ... > >>>> > > >>>> > BTW, who is afraid of > >>> what comes after > > Z? Jump the gun please. > >>>> > > >>> > > _________________________________________ > >>>> > reader-list: an open > > discussion > >>> list on media and the city. > >>>> > Critiques & > > Collaborations > >>>> > To subscribe: > >>> send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>>> > subscribe in the > >>> subject > > header. > >>>> > To unsubscribe: > >>> > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>>> > List archive: > >>> > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >>>> > >>> > > _________________________________________ > >>>> reader-list: an open > > discussion > >>> list on media and the city. > >>>> Critiques & > > Collaborations > >>>> To subscribe: > >>> send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>>> subscribe in the > >>> subject > > header. > >>>> To unsubscribe: > >>> > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>>> List archive: > >>> > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> > > Samvit > >>> Rawal > >>> 9422037853 > >>> > >>> > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > >>> To err is > > human; > >>> to forgive, infrequent. > >>> - Franklin P. > >>> Adams > >>> > >> > > _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open > >>> > > discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To > >>> > > subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > >>> > > in > >>> the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: > >>> > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: > >>> > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > >> > >> > > _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion > > list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: > > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the > > subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion > > list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send > > an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject > > header. > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion > > list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an > > email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > > header. > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From chintan.backups at gmail.com Sun Oct 31 20:33:46 2010 From: chintan.backups at gmail.com (Chintan Girish Modi) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 20:33:46 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] How to create storybooks for a plural world Message-ID: >From http://www.himalmag.com/read.php?id=4501 Beyond the 'national' child: How to create storybooks for a plural world By Deeptha Achar and Deepa Srinivas Any intervention into the field of children’s reading in India must take into account the new investment in childhood that came following Independence. This included a major overhaul of the colonial education system, alongside initiatives such as the Children’s Book Trust, National Book Trust, Nehru Bal Pustakalayas and Bal Bhavans. Several key literary figures and artists were part of this endeavour, and a substantial number of remarkable children’s books were published. Popular initiatives such as the Amar Chitra Katha comics series also participated in this enterprise. Yet more than 50 years later, it comes as a shock to find, in book after book that came out of these projects, both protagonist and audience so obviously elite and upper caste. It took the women’s movement and activists raising questions of caste and religious community for the public to realise how systemic, and how related to the nature of power and authority, these representations were. In India, children’s reading materials were long (and continue to be) addressed to an urban, middle- and upper-caste child in ways that reflected his or her economic resources, family relationships, beliefs, school experiences, food habits and language. They recorded and endorsed the world, the sensibility and the authority of this child, resulting in a self-assured hold over the world that was later a key enabling factor in such children’s success. Other children, however, were not provided with such psychic support. In such books we hardly ever found a child who had come to school hungry and sits there dreaming about food, for instance, or one who had to scheme in order to acquire books for class. Children from different contexts sometimes did find a place in these stories, but were generally forced to establish their ‘smartness’. A tribal boy, for instance, needed to establish that his knowledge of the forest can be valuable for his urban, middle-class classmates; a disabled girl must excel as a craftsperson. Even in the case of middle-class children, only a restricted set of situations were generally admissible, thus glossing over the fact that children often lead complex lives. We rarely encountered a child whose mother was depressed or one who was coping with a death in the family – such children lived with the knowledge that they must anxiously guard such secrets. Recently, the Andhra Pradesh-based Anveshi Research Centre for Women’s Studies did a study in a few government schools in and around Hyderabad, and found a disabling gap between children’s home life and the assumptions on which school culture was built. Most of the children who attended these schools shouldered responsibilities in their families, and contributed towards their economic survival; these children’s sense of worth was positively constituted through the role they played. Yet such lives had no legitimate space in the education system. In fact, set against this dominant culture, these childhoods could only appear as deficient, deprived of play, pleasure and parental guidance. Children often dropped out because the school remained a forbidding place, identified not only with abuse from upper-caste teachers but also with the absence of recognition and endorsement of themselves or their home lives. The dominant idea of ‘childhood’ is today so firmly entrenched in most people’s minds that it is difficult to imagine it as historical. Yet around the world, this naturalised idea emerged as a separate entity only around the mid-17th century, as a result of key shifts associated with modernity. Up to that period, there was no ideological separation of the categories ‘child’ and ‘adult’. A child was simply a small adult, an apprentice rather than a full-fledged worker. In the absence of this distinction, it was impossible to publish books for a non-existent audience. With the philosophical focus on the child associated with the European thinkers John Locke, Jean-Jacques Rousseau and others, a paradigm shift took place, suddenly rendering possible a branch of writing for children. From its very beginnings, children’s literature has thus assumed the responsibility of moulding a ‘national child’ and, in the process, has taken on a subtly disciplinary and more obviously normative form. The result, however, is the marginalisation of non-normative childhoods. *Different Tales, *a series of children’s books developed in recent years by Anveshi (including by the writers of this piece), tries to find images and stories that mirror and dignify the marginalised childhoods of the majority of Indian children. (This first phase features books in Telugu and Malayalam, translated also into English, with the plan being to extend gradually into other Indian languages.) The stories explore conflict without pushing for secular-national or other established universalist resolutions, and mark a subtle shift from the norm as they validate the worlds of non-mainstream children. In contrast to mainstream representations of childhood as a period of innocence and vulnerability that is marked off from the adult world of responsibility and work, in these stories children take pride in working alongside other family members. Even the toys they devise and the games they play rehearse everyday routines and exceptional events of agricultural life and community living. While most of the existing children’s books address the middle-class, upper-caste child, these books speak from within other worlds. To read the entire article, visit http://www.himalmag.com/read.php?id=4501 From chintan.backups at gmail.com Sun Oct 31 20:54:15 2010 From: chintan.backups at gmail.com (Chintan Girish Modi) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 20:54:15 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] An article on Muslims in children's books Message-ID: >From http://www.schoollibraryjournal.com/article/CA6367083.html& By Rukhsana Khan -- School Library Journal, 09/01/2006A few years ago I came across a For Better or For Worse cartoon strip in which Elizabeth and a friend are in a cafeteria. In the background, standing in line, was a Muslim girl in hijab. It gave me a ridiculous sense of joy–of validation–to see “myself” reflected in a cartoon strip. Especially since this Muslim wasn't doing anything bad. No bombs. No threats. No screaming headlines. She was just getting lunch. And she was pretty, too! The desire to fit in, the intense longing to be part of the community, is hardwired into our psyches. These days this need is particularly critical for Muslim children in North America. When I was growing up, it wasn't my religion that set me apart, it was the color of my skin. I grew up in the 1960s in a small town in Canada. We were the only Pakistani Muslim family in the whole town and most of the time I was the only brown kid in the class. The other kids didn't know much about brown people. They said, “We're white because we're clean and you're brown because you're dirty. If you go home and take a lot of baths you'll get white like us.” The teen years were the worst. I didn't dress Islamically, I tried to blend in. But I couldn't afford all the latest fashions the “cool” kids wore so I wore cheap look-alikes, which probably made the situation worse. I was bound to question my faith. I had all that recess time alone to examine precisely what my belief system was, where I belonged, and what I stood for. I used that time to come to peace with myself. Of course, we live in a different, more culturally diverse environment today. It is far easier for children from different backgrounds to find themselves in books. Since September 11th, 2001, a number of fiction and nonfiction titles have been published in an attempt to teach children and young adults (and in many cases, their parents) about Islam and to address many of the misconceptions that exist about the faith and the Muslim community at large. The best of these books have made a positive impact (see the recommended titles below), but a great deal more work needs to be done. To read the entire article, check http://www.schoollibraryjournal.com/article/CA6367083.html& From aliens at dataone.in Sun Oct 31 22:01:43 2010 From: aliens at dataone.in (Bipin Trivedi) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 22:01:43 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] ARUNDHATI - PUBLICITY HUNGER In-Reply-To: References: <000001cb78c9$39a0a4e0$ace1eea0$@in> Message-ID: <000f01cb7919$1ac061f0$504125d0$@in> Dear Rajkamal, Of course word chip I mean for cheap only as said by Aalok. Arundhati is just publicity hunger nothing else. If she is really worrying for Kashmir than where was she for 2 decades when bloodbath was created by few Kashmiri separatists and terrorists. Not a single word from her against these. Such violent situation all these years effected heavily to common people of Kashmir only. She never expressed any feeling for this proves that her recent statement was just publicity stunt of her own. Perhaps you will hear some new booker like award for her! Thanks Bipin Trivedi -----Original Message----- From: Rajkamal Goswami [mailto:rajkamalgoswami at gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2010 1:29 PM To: Bipin Trivedi Cc: sarai-list Subject: Re: [Reader-list] ARUNDHATI - PUBLICITY HUNGER Dear Trivediji, "she is just after negative and chip publicity" I wish to strongly contradict this view of yours. But before I do that can you explain what do you mean by 'chip; here? Rajkamal On 10/31/10, Bipin Trivedi wrote: > Guha says, "She's crazy. Arundhati Roy has become a joke, a publicity > fiend," Guha told Bangalore Mirror. "She hops from cause to cause, and just > look at the company she's keeping ... the likes of Syed Ali Shah Geelani, an > ultimate bigot who wants to keep women in purdah and bring in an Islamic > theocracy." > > While posting maoist topic discussion read my view on Arundhati as under: > (1) When asked the question to Arundhati that most of people hate your views > and writing and believe your thought impractical. She replies, if whole of > India hate me I have to believe I am wrong. Then why you waiting for, > understand this and come back from your wrong belief now. This proves that > she is just after negative and chip publicity. (2) Even government wants > Arundhati to be mediator between the government and maoist, but she denies. > This is also creates doubt on her sincerity. What I think, she wants just > mere publicity out of this and wants to create a show that she worried of > tribal! By that way, she wants to increase sale of her books and reader > audience. > > Same thing applicable now also. Kashmir problem is there since almost after > independence and its intensity increased since 2 decades, but I have not > heard any comment earlier for this issue. So, why now? She always remain of > search of current hot topics and sensitized it to catch attention of media > just for mere chip publicity. Dear Tara, you are right, after her shared > stage with crook Geelani, many like you became her critics. > > Thanks > Bipin Trivedi > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Rajkamal From aliens at dataone.in Sun Oct 31 22:24:56 2010 From: aliens at dataone.in (Bipin Trivedi) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 22:24:56 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] KASHMIR IS INTEGRAL PART OF INDIA Message-ID: <001001cb791c$5b774760$1265d620$@in> 4 blunders made by our great leader Mr. Nehru as under. 1. In 1945, India was offered permanent membership by UN was denied by Nehru giving reason that china is more eligible for this than India! 2. Indian army has reached almost to Lahore in 1948 war but strangely at that time Nehru ordered army to come back and took Kashmir problem in the international forum. One can describe this move as anti-national. Else, at that time only we could have taken back POK and Kashmir would not be problematic state and no Kashmir issue exists. 3. Without any resistance, he accepted China's occupation of Tibet. Instead of plainly accepting such thing on China demand, he would have keep mum at that time. 4. His biggest mistake is to keep Mr. Menon as NSA and keep him continued even after he was giving wrong foreign advises many times. Everyone knows that Sardar Patel did some extraordinary tough job successfully by convincing various kingdoms of India by any means and made India united at that time. But, unfortunately for strange reason, Nehru took back charge of Kashmir from Sardar Patel and made blunders which we are suffering till today. If it was with Sardar at that time than there want be any Kashmir problem today. Along with Kashmir charge, Nehru wants Hyderabad state charge also but with boldly and firmly Sardar denied it and today Hyderabad/Andhra is not at all problematic state and feel proud to be with India. Thanks Bipin Trivedi From shuddha at sarai.net Sun Oct 31 22:31:32 2010 From: shuddha at sarai.net (shuddha at sarai.net) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 22:31:32 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Statement by Arundhati Roy on the Attack on her Residence Message-ID: Dear all, the disgusting and obscene attacks on Arundhati Roy in sections of the media and even, unfortunately on a forum like this one by right wing hooligans (including some on this list) is now being complemented by attacks and vandalism at her residence, in the full glare of the media. It is not Ms. Roy who seeks out media coverage, it is the thugs who attack her who pre-arrange to have television OB vans in place while they attempt to ransack her residence. Those interested may read the statement below by Arundhati Roy in response to the most recent attack, best, Shuddha --------------------------------------------------------------- SOMETHING FOR THE MEDIA TO THINK ABOUT A mob of about a hundred people arrived at my house at 11 this morning (Sunday October 31st 2010.) They broke through the gate and vandalized property. They shouted slogans against me for my views on K...ashmir, and threatened to teach me a lesson. The OB Vans of NDTV, Times Now and News 24 were already in place ostensibly to cover the event live. TV reports say that the mob consisted largely of members of the BJP’s Mahila Morcha (Women’s wing). After they left, the police advised us to let them know if in future we saw any OB vans hanging around the neighborhood because they said that was an indication that a mob was on its way. In June this year, after a false report in the papers by Press Trust of India (PTI) two men on motorcycles tried to stone the windows of my home. They too were accompanied by TV cameramen. What is the nature of the agreement between these sections of the media and mobs and criminals in search of spectacle? Does the media which positions itself at the ‘scene’ in advance have a guarantee that the attacks and demonstrations will be non-violent? What happens if there is criminal trespass (as there was today) or even something worse? Does the media then become accessory to the crime? This question is important, given that some TV channels and newspapers are in the process of brazenly inciting mob anger against me. In the race for sensationalism the line between reporting news and manufacturing news is becoming blurred. So what if a few people have to be sacrificed at the altar of TRP ratings? The Government has indicated that it does not intend to go ahead with the charges of sedition against me and the other speakers at a recent seminar on Azadi for Kashmir. So the task of punishing me for my views seems to have been taken on by right wing storm troopers. The Bajrang Dal and the RSS have openly announced that they are going to “fix” me with all the means at their disposal including filing cases against me all over the country. The whole country has seen what they are capable of doing, the extent to which they are capable of going. So, while the Government is showing a degree of maturity, are sections of the media and the infrastructure of democracy being rented out to those who believe in mob justice? I can understand that the BJP's Mahila Morcha is using me to distract attention the from the senior RSS activist Indresh Kumar who has recently been named in the CBI charge-sheet for the bomb blast in Ajmer Sharif in which several people were killed and many injured. But why are sections of the mainstream media doing the same? Is a writer with unpopular views more dangerous than a suspect in a bomb blast? Or is it a question of ideological alignment? Arundhati Roy October 31st 2010 From shuddha at sarai.net Sun Oct 31 22:54:09 2010 From: shuddha at sarai.net (shuddha at sarai.net) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 22:54:09 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 23 Reasons for Another Possible Charge of Sedition Message-ID: Dear All, this is a post I made two years ago on this list. It is a post that can be usefully reposted in today's context, without changing a word. Those baying for the blood of so called seditionists, might now start thinking about what to do with their 'chacha-ji' aka the first Prime Minister of Independent India, J.L. Nehru. And, I suppose that those who are calling Arundhati Roy 'crazy' for her 'seditious' views, such as Ramchandra Guha, might have to take a close second look at one of their idols, the self-same gentleman, Jawaharlal Nehru. But then, going by Dr. Guha's kind of history writing, I don't think he has ever felt the need for a close look at anything much. And going by the proclamations of our resident patriots, they have never felt the need to, either. best Shuddha [Reader-list] 23 reasons for another possible charge of sedition August 25, 2008 Dear all Since there is a lively debate on 'sedition' on this list, I thought I might add some more material for consideration. Were a plebiscite to be held in the Kashmir valley today, the verdict in all likelihood would not be favourable to India. But it is of course, the Indian government that first raised the question of a plebiscite when India took the Kashmir dispute to the United Nations. India, then, had promised to hear and respect the will of the people of Kashmir through the form of a plebiscite. The wheel of history, has however, come full circle. Today, asking for a plebiscite is tantamount, to some, to sedition. Here, then, are 23 reasons to charge Jawaharlal Nehru, the first Prime Minister of India, with sedition. I am copying below a list of quotes from his official communications, writings and speeches as Prime Minister of India. It should be fairly easy to cross check these against the official records, Nehru's works and the archives. If they are indeed truly what Nehru said and thought, then he is not saying anything very different from what some of us have been saying, what many amongst the people of Kashmir are currently demanding, and crucially, what has been expressed by the commentators (Roy, Anklesaria Aiyar, Pratap Bhanu Mehta, Jug Suraiya, Rajmohan Gandhi) who have been condemned or publicly charged with harbouring seditious intentions. Now, as we know, Pawan Durani has made it possible for us to think of Swami Vivekananda and SIster Nivedita as rabid Anti-Hindu, Anti- National 'Intellectuals' like Arundhati Roy and some of us on the Sarai list. Now, perhaps Aditya Raj Kaul, (in the spirit of the editorials he had posted yesterday) might want to add Nehru's name (albeit posthumously) to Roy's in the list of Indians who he might thinks would be suitable candidates for being charged with high treason. And what makes it more interesting is that Jawaharlal Nehru comes from an impeccable bloodline that has its roots in a certain disputed territory. Someone please remind me which one it is. regards Shuddha _____________ JAWAHARLAL NEHRU ON KASHMIR AND PLEBISCITE 1. “Our view which we have repeatedly made public is that the question of accession in any disputed territory or State must be decided in accordance with wishes of people and we adhere to this view.” JAWAHARLAL NEHRU, (in telegram No. 402-Primin-2227 dated 27 October 1947 to Prime Minister of Pakistan repeating telegram addressed to Prime Minister of United Kingdom). 2. “In regard to accession also, it has been made clear that this is subject to reference to people of State and their decision.” JAWAHARLAL NEHRU, (in telegram No.413 dated 28 October 1947 addressed to Prime Minister of Pakistan). 3. “ …….the people of Kashmir would decide the question of accession. It is open to them to accede to either Dominion then.” JAWAHARLAL NEHRU, (in telegram No.255 dated 31 October 1947 addressed to Prime Minister of Pakistan). 4. “Kashmir should decide question of accession by plebiscite or referendum under international auspices such as those of the United Nations.” JAWAHARLAL NEHRU, (Letter No. 368-Primin dated 21 November 1947 to Prime Minister of Pakistan). 5. “We are anxious not to finalize anything in a moment of crisis and without the fullest opportunity to be given to the people of Kashmir to have their say. It is for them ultimately to decide. 6. “And let me make it clear that it has been our policy all along that where there is a dispute about the accession of a state to either Dominion, the accession must be made by the people of that state.” JAWAHARLAL NEHRU, (Broadcast to the Nation: “All India Radio”: 2 November 1947). 7. “The issue in Kashmir is whether violence and naked force should decide the future or the will of the people.” JAWAHARLAL NEHRU, (Statement in Indian Constituent Assembly; 25 November 1947). 8. “We have not opposed at any time an over-all plebiscite for the State as a whole…….” JAWAHARLAL NEHRU, (in telegram dated 16 August 1950 addressed to the U.N. Representative for India and Pakistan: S/1791 : Anne 1(B). 9. “The most feasible method of ascertaining the wishes of the people was by fair and impartial plebiscite.” JAWAHARLAL NEHRU, (Joint press communique of the Prime Ministers of India and Pakistan issued in Delhi after their meeting on 20 August 1953). 10. "People seem to forget that Kashmir is not a commodity for sale or to be bartered. It has an individual existence and its people must be the final arbiters of their future.” JAWAHARLAL NEHRU, (Report to the All-India Congress Committee, 6 July 1951; The Statesman, New Delhi, 9 July 1951). 11. “Kashmir is not a thing to be bandied about between India and Pakistan but it has a soul of its own and an individuality of its own. Nothing can be done without the goodwill and consent of the people of Kashmir.” JAWAHARLAL NEHRU, (Statement in the Indian Parliament, 31 March 1955). 12. “We had given our pledge to the people of Kashmir, and subsequently to the United Nations; we stood by it and we stand by it today. Let the people of Kashmir decide.” JAWAHARLAL NEHRU, (Statement in the Indian Parliament, 12 February 1951). 13. “We have taken the issue to the United Nations and given our word of honour for a peaceful solution. As a great nation, we cannot go back on it. We have left the question for final solution to the people of Kashmir and we are determined to abide by their decision.” JAWAHARLAL NEHRU (Amrita Bazar Patrika, Calcutta, 2 January 1952). 14. “If, after a proper plebiscite, the people of Kashmir said, ‘We do not want to be with India’, we are committed to accept that. We will accept it though it might pain us. We will not send any army against them. We will accept that, however hurt we might feel about it, we will change the Constitution, if necessary.” JAWAHARLAL NEHRU (Statement in the Indian Parliament, 26 June 1952). 15. “I want to stress that it is only the people of Kashmir who can decide the future of Kashmir. It is not that we have merely said that to the United Nations and to the people of Kashmir; it is our conviction and one that is borne out by the policy that we have pursued, not only in Kashmir but every where. 16. “I started with the presumption that it is for the people of Kashmir to decide their own future. We will not compel them. In that sense, the people of Kashmir are sovereign.” JAWAHARLAL NEHRU (Statement in Indian Parliament, 7 August 1952) 17. “The whole dispute about Kashmir is still before the United Nations. We cannot just decide things concerning Kashmir. We cannot pass a bill or issue an order concerning Kashmir or do whatever we want. JAWAHARLAL NEHRU (The Statesman, 1 May 1953) 18. “Leave the decision regarding the future of this State to the people of the State is not merely a promise to your Government but also to the people of Kashmir and to the world.” JAWAHARLAL NEHRU (In telegram No. 25 dated 31 October 1947 addressed to Prime Minister of Pakistan). 19. “In regard to accession also it has been made clear that this is subject to reference to people of State and their decision.” JAWAHARLAL NEHRU (In telegram No.413 dated 28 October 1947 addressed to Prime Minister of Pakistan). 20. “That Government of India and Pakistan should make a joint request to U.N.O. to undertake a plebiscite in Kashmir at the earliest possible date.” JAWAHARLAL NEHRU (In telegram No. Primin-304 dated 8 November 1947 addressed to Prime Minister of Pakistan). 21. “We have always right from the beginning accepted the idea of the Kashmir people deciding their fate by referendum or plebiscite………..” 22. “Ultimately, the final decision of settlement, which must come, has first of all to be made basically by the people of Kashmir…….” JAWAHARLAL NEHRU (Statement at Press Conference in London, 16 January 1951, The Statesman, 18 January 1951). 23. “But so far as the Government of India are concerned, every assurance and international commitment in regard to Kashmir stands.” ·JAWAHARLAL NEHRU (Statement in the Rajya Sabha; 18 May 1954). From aliens at dataone.in Sun Oct 31 23:17:16 2010 From: aliens at dataone.in (Bipin Trivedi) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 23:17:16 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 23 Reasons for Another Possible Charge of Sedition In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001101cb7923$a8d356f0$fa7a04d0$@in> Dear Shuddha, Thanks for posting all these historical statement/speeches of Nehru. Actually Nehru acted this way on Kashmir only which is objectionable. After independence there are so many states from where objections was raised and many Kingdom/people of that state objected to join with India. Nehru did not intervened other state but why only in Kashmir? Such behavior of Nehru is strange and puts him in suspicion. Thanks Bipin Trivedi -----Original Message----- From: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net [mailto:reader-list-bounces at sarai.net] On Behalf Of shuddha at sarai.net Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2010 10:54 PM To: reader-list at sarai.net Subject: [Reader-list] 23 Reasons for Another Possible Charge of Sedition Dear All, this is a post I made two years ago on this list. It is a post that can be usefully reposted in today's context, without changing a word. Those baying for the blood of so called seditionists, might now start thinking about what to do with their 'chacha-ji' aka the first Prime Minister of Independent India, J.L. Nehru. And, I suppose that those who are calling Arundhati Roy 'crazy' for her 'seditious' views, such as Ramchandra Guha, might have to take a close second look at one of their idols, the self-same gentleman, Jawaharlal Nehru. But then, going by Dr. Guha's kind of history writing, I don't think he has ever felt the need for a close look at anything much. And going by the proclamations of our resident patriots, they have never felt the need to, either. best Shuddha [Reader-list] 23 reasons for another possible charge of sedition August 25, 2008 Dear all Since there is a lively debate on 'sedition' on this list, I thought I might add some more material for consideration. Were a plebiscite to be held in the Kashmir valley today, the verdict in all likelihood would not be favourable to India. But it is of course, the Indian government that first raised the question of a plebiscite when India took the Kashmir dispute to the United Nations. India, then, had promised to hear and respect the will of the people of Kashmir through the form of a plebiscite. The wheel of history, has however, come full circle. Today, asking for a plebiscite is tantamount, to some, to sedition. Here, then, are 23 reasons to charge Jawaharlal Nehru, the first Prime Minister of India, with sedition. I am copying below a list of quotes from his official communications, writings and speeches as Prime Minister of India. It should be fairly easy to cross check these against the official records, Nehru's works and the archives. If they are indeed truly what Nehru said and thought, then he is not saying anything very different from what some of us have been saying, what many amongst the people of Kashmir are currently demanding, and crucially, what has been expressed by the commentators (Roy, Anklesaria Aiyar, Pratap Bhanu Mehta, Jug Suraiya, Rajmohan Gandhi) who have been condemned or publicly charged with harbouring seditious intentions. Now, as we know, Pawan Durani has made it possible for us to think of Swami Vivekananda and SIster Nivedita as rabid Anti-Hindu, Anti- National 'Intellectuals' like Arundhati Roy and some of us on the Sarai list. Now, perhaps Aditya Raj Kaul, (in the spirit of the editorials he had posted yesterday) might want to add Nehru's name (albeit posthumously) to Roy's in the list of Indians who he might thinks would be suitable candidates for being charged with high treason. And what makes it more interesting is that Jawaharlal Nehru comes from an impeccable bloodline that has its roots in a certain disputed territory. Someone please remind me which one it is. regards Shuddha _____________ JAWAHARLAL NEHRU ON KASHMIR AND PLEBISCITE 1. “Our view which we have repeatedly made public is that the question of accession in any disputed territory or State must be decided in accordance with wishes of people and we adhere to this view.” JAWAHARLAL NEHRU, (in telegram No. 402-Primin-2227 dated 27 October 1947 to Prime Minister of Pakistan repeating telegram addressed to Prime Minister of United Kingdom). 2. “In regard to accession also, it has been made clear that this is subject to reference to people of State and their decision.” JAWAHARLAL NEHRU, (in telegram No.413 dated 28 October 1947 addressed to Prime Minister of Pakistan). 3. “ …….the people of Kashmir would decide the question of accession. It is open to them to accede to either Dominion then.” JAWAHARLAL NEHRU, (in telegram No.255 dated 31 October 1947 addressed to Prime Minister of Pakistan). 4. “Kashmir should decide question of accession by plebiscite or referendum under international auspices such as those of the United Nations.” JAWAHARLAL NEHRU, (Letter No. 368-Primin dated 21 November 1947 to Prime Minister of Pakistan). 5. “We are anxious not to finalize anything in a moment of crisis and without the fullest opportunity to be given to the people of Kashmir to have their say. It is for them ultimately to decide. 6. “And let me make it clear that it has been our policy all along that where there is a dispute about the accession of a state to either Dominion, the accession must be made by the people of that state.” JAWAHARLAL NEHRU, (Broadcast to the Nation: “All India Radio”: 2 November 1947). 7. “The issue in Kashmir is whether violence and naked force should decide the future or the will of the people.” JAWAHARLAL NEHRU, (Statement in Indian Constituent Assembly; 25 November 1947). 8. “We have not opposed at any time an over-all plebiscite for the State as a whole…….” JAWAHARLAL NEHRU, (in telegram dated 16 August 1950 addressed to the U.N. Representative for India and Pakistan: S/1791 : Anne 1(B). 9. “The most feasible method of ascertaining the wishes of the people was by fair and impartial plebiscite.” JAWAHARLAL NEHRU, (Joint press communique of the Prime Ministers of India and Pakistan issued in Delhi after their meeting on 20 August 1953). 10. "People seem to forget that Kashmir is not a commodity for sale or to be bartered. It has an individual existence and its people must be the final arbiters of their future.” JAWAHARLAL NEHRU, (Report to the All-India Congress Committee, 6 July 1951; The Statesman, New Delhi, 9 July 1951). 11. “Kashmir is not a thing to be bandied about between India and Pakistan but it has a soul of its own and an individuality of its own. Nothing can be done without the goodwill and consent of the people of Kashmir.” JAWAHARLAL NEHRU, (Statement in the Indian Parliament, 31 March 1955). 12. “We had given our pledge to the people of Kashmir, and subsequently to the United Nations; we stood by it and we stand by it today. Let the people of Kashmir decide.” JAWAHARLAL NEHRU, (Statement in the Indian Parliament, 12 February 1951). 13. “We have taken the issue to the United Nations and given our word of honour for a peaceful solution. As a great nation, we cannot go back on it. We have left the question for final solution to the people of Kashmir and we are determined to abide by their decision.” JAWAHARLAL NEHRU (Amrita Bazar Patrika, Calcutta, 2 January 1952). 14. “If, after a proper plebiscite, the people of Kashmir said, ‘We do not want to be with India’, we are committed to accept that. We will accept it though it might pain us. We will not send any army against them. We will accept that, however hurt we might feel about it, we will change the Constitution, if necessary.” JAWAHARLAL NEHRU (Statement in the Indian Parliament, 26 June 1952). 15. “I want to stress that it is only the people of Kashmir who can decide the future of Kashmir. It is not that we have merely said that to the United Nations and to the people of Kashmir; it is our conviction and one that is borne out by the policy that we have pursued, not only in Kashmir but every where. 16. “I started with the presumption that it is for the people of Kashmir to decide their own future. We will not compel them. In that sense, the people of Kashmir are sovereign.” JAWAHARLAL NEHRU (Statement in Indian Parliament, 7 August 1952) 17. “The whole dispute about Kashmir is still before the United Nations. We cannot just decide things concerning Kashmir. We cannot pass a bill or issue an order concerning Kashmir or do whatever we want. JAWAHARLAL NEHRU (The Statesman, 1 May 1953) 18. “Leave the decision regarding the future of this State to the people of the State is not merely a promise to your Government but also to the people of Kashmir and to the world.” JAWAHARLAL NEHRU (In telegram No. 25 dated 31 October 1947 addressed to Prime Minister of Pakistan). 19. “In regard to accession also it has been made clear that this is subject to reference to people of State and their decision.” JAWAHARLAL NEHRU (In telegram No.413 dated 28 October 1947 addressed to Prime Minister of Pakistan). 20. “That Government of India and Pakistan should make a joint request to U.N.O. to undertake a plebiscite in Kashmir at the earliest possible date.” JAWAHARLAL NEHRU (In telegram No. Primin-304 dated 8 November 1947 addressed to Prime Minister of Pakistan). 21. “We have always right from the beginning accepted the idea of the Kashmir people deciding their fate by referendum or plebiscite………..” 22. “Ultimately, the final decision of settlement, which must come, has first of all to be made basically by the people of Kashmir…….” JAWAHARLAL NEHRU (Statement at Press Conference in London, 16 January 1951, The Statesman, 18 January 1951). 23. “But so far as the Government of India are concerned, every assurance and international commitment in regard to Kashmir stands.” ·JAWAHARLAL NEHRU (Statement in the Rajya Sabha; 18 May 1954). _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pheeta.ram at gmail.com Sun Oct 31 23:34:44 2010 From: pheeta.ram at gmail.com (Pheeta Ram) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 23:34:44 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Statement by Arundhati Roy on the Attack on her Residence In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "मेरे दुश्मन ही मेरी जीत के पैगम्बर हो गए"