From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sat May 1 16:02:17 2010 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sat, 1 May 2010 03:32:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Yousuf & Manmohan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <528328.1642.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Touting religion to promote love is a short step away from using religion to propagate hate. No better example of the latter than the Pakistani Nation.   Manmohan Singh, as the Prime Minister of a supposedly secular India, has no business to use 'religion' for managing India's External Affairs.   Wonder why Manmohan Singh did not go the full distance and remind Pakistan's PM and others in the SARC summit, of the "Hindu Heritage" of Pakistanis.   Kshmendra   --- On Thu, 4/29/10, yasir ~يا سر wrote: From: yasir ~يا سر Subject: [Reader-list] Yousuf & Manmohan To: "Sarai Reader-list" Date: Thursday, April 29, 2010, 11:06 PM Historic walk of two prime ministers *Gilani’s ancestors helped build Golden Temple * http://www.thenews.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=28551 _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sat May 1 16:15:04 2010 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sat, 1 May 2010 03:45:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] "The bad Sufi" Message-ID: <111250.93710.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Manmohan Singh's (paraphrased) exultation "Isnt it great!!!!! Yousuf Gilani's ancestors helped my ancestors build the Golden Temple" reminded me of the article posted below. (Prompted by Gilani's roots being traced to a Sufi Order.)   Kshmendra     "The bad Sufi" By Qalandar Bux Memon Tuesday, 26 Jan, 2010   It is often assumed that Sufism stands opposed to Wahhabism. Wrong. Sufism and Wahhabism, in fact, share a fatal characteristic – they are religions of the status quo.  In Pakistan, Sufism legitimises barbarities of inequality and starvation – ‘do nothing, it’s god’s will’ - while at the same time justifying structures of oppressive power, Pirism and landlordism, rather like Wahhabism in Saudi Arabia.  Contemporary Sufism, rather than being a solution to Pakistan’s problems, is the cause.    I was sitting at the shrine of Shah Kamal in Lahore, with the dhol beats and whirling dervishes dancing to connect to the ‘centre of the universe in themselves’, when a friend turned and pointed to an old German fellow sitting a few meters from us. “He just delivered a lecture on Sufism. He is an expert on the subject, and talked about how it’s a religion of peace and love.” I replied curtly: “Have you ever been in love? Have you had your heart broken? What peace is there in that state? What peace was there when Mansur had his head chopped off on the orders of the Baghdadi Emperor? What peace was there when Shah Inayat was fighting against the Mughal emperor for his life and that of his commune? What peace is there in Sassui’s peeling feet as she searches for her beloved through the desert of Sindh?”   My friend agreed and said: “But they pay me – I have to go along with them.”   Western and Pakistani policymakers think Islam can be codified as either a religion of peace and love and given the brand of Sufism, or as a religion of violent jihad. They think it’s better, at this point in time, to promote the peaceful religion of Sufism.   Note how the word Islam is taken out – Sufism is codified as not really Islam. Thus Sufism is considered a perfect native antidote to the violent religion of Islam.     Why are dollars, pounds, rupees and Euros going to promote Sufism? What is it about today’s Sufism that allows it to serve a purpose for the American empire, and what function does it play locally in Pakistan?     The answer was hard for me to stomach. I had spent much time researching aspects of Sufism, and I thought I’d found a touchstone from which to articulate a spirituality that was socially radical and politically challenging to Pakistan’s parasitic elite and the US/Nato invaders. Ziauddin Sardar, polymath writer and scholar of Islam, forced me to face the facts.   He called Sufism “docile”, acting as an opiate for the masses, with most Pirs/Syeds/Sufis amounting to nothing short of “confidence tricksters”. And indeed, Sufism is docile. A shopkeeper in Main Market, Gulberg, had an emblem of the Sufi saint Lal Qalandar hanging in his shop, which he had got from Sehraw Sharif, Sindh, the town where the saint is buried. He said that “what these people do not realise is that 80 per cent of what we pray at the shrine [of Lal Qalandar] comes true.” A popular song sung across the Punjab at Sufi shrines tells women that if they light a lantern at the shrine of saints, their desire for a ‘son’ will be answered.   Items given by holy Pirs - threads, rings, blessings, and even sexual induction before marriage (in the case of a notorious Sindhi landlord/Pir) - are taken as altering the universe and leading to the granting of prayers of health, wealth, and other worthy claims by this mass of the wretched that is the Pakistani citizen. It is not only candles and lanterns that are lit at the shrines; money is exchanged and power is sustained. It is this power that has created a “docile” Sufism.   Pakistan is a vastly unequal society. Government figures put those below the poverty line at close to 40 per cent of the population, though the true figure may be closer to 50 per cent. Inequity is the hallmark of the Sindh province of Pakistan, which is celebrated as “the land of the Sufis” and is where Sufis and Pirs hold power.  A recent World Bank report noted that Sindh has the narrowest distribution of land ownership, with the richest one per cent of farmers owning 150 per cent more land than the bottom 62 per cent of farmers put together. Feudal landlords in vast parts of Sindh have holdings of thousands of acres, and most of them are Syeds or Pirs. These lands were sometimes acquired during the Mughal era but were largely consolidated during the British colonial rule in India. The British, looking for local collaborators, found Sufi Pirs willing to oblige.   Sarah Ansari, in her book, Sufi Saints and State Power: The Pirs of Sind, 1843-1947, notes: ‘the Sindhi Pirs participated in the British system of control in order to protect their privileges and to extend them further whenever and wherever possible’. Today’s feudalists are keen to protect and promote “docile” Sufism to sustain their wealth and power – this time with US help.   Wealth is created by a pool of landless serfs who toil thousands of acres for their spiritual masters, while seeing their own children starve. These serfs create the wealth that sends the Bhuttos and the Gilanis to universities such as Oxford and Harvard, while their children get “blessings” and threads of “Pirs”. This stream of inequity from generation to generation is based on a lame theological idea, which nonetheless has been promoted by the Mughal Empire, the British Empire, the landlords themselves, and now by the American Empire, and thanks to such patronage has gained far more ground than the Taliban. It states that the Prophet was given divine light/knowledge, which passes on to his descendents. These descendents append the honorific title of ‘Syed’ [literally, ‘master’], and claim divine and material privileges.   Pirs justify their superiority on a similar argument – they were given the light, and this light continues to radiate in their descendants. At a recital of the poetry of the radical Sufi Waris Shah held each year in Lahore, the descendents of Iman Bari Sarkar (a Pir) enter the arena to be received with awe and sought for blessings by the crowd. The recital stops and they are escorted to the front and seated. All eyes are on these holy men who are not only descendents of a Pir but also Syeds – thus, doubly blessed with ‘light’! And then they begin expounding their ideology: “We the Syeds get different treatment from God Almighty, for our good deeds we get double the reward compared to ‘murids’ [non-Syeds] who only get single reward for a single good deed … but, it’s not easy to be a Syed … [he laughs] … we have to suffer double the punishment for our any wrong deeds whereas you [non-Syeds] get only single punishment for a single wrong deed!”   There you have it! Our holy man explains why he has a Land Cruiser jeep and “non-Syeds” have donkey carts. He explains why most Pakistanis are living in poverty while he and his Syeds and Pirs are lapping it up in luxury.   Contemporary Sufism is the ideology of Sindh’s landlords. It is the ideology that is used to uphold their wealth and despotism, and keeps millions in serfdom. A similar pattern is repeated throughout Pakistan. Given the lack of proportional representation and the vast inequality in power in each district between Pirs and the rest, it is almost always the case that elections flood parliament with Pirs/Syeds/landlords. The current Pakistani Prime Minister (Syed Yousaf Raza Gilani) and Foreign Minister (Makhdoom Shah Mehmood Qureshi) are examples. Both have the claim of being descended from Holy Pirs as the basis of their wealth and distinction. As a result, we cannot expect parliament to challenge inequity and injustice in Pakistan.   Parliamentarians know that lack of education, coupled with the obscurantism of contemporary Sufism, sustains their power. Like the British before them, the Americans don’t care about Pakistan’s growing multitude of serfs and the underclass, they don’t care whether the Prime Minister and the Foreign Minister of Pakistan are deeply rooted in the cause of inequity and injustice in the country and part of the promotion of a system of starvation – a Sufism that tells people to take a blessing instead of demanding food, education, justice and liberty. Like the British, they will fund whoever furthers their interests. We, however, must care.   This is an article by Qalandar Bux Memon, editor of Naked Punch, from the The Samosa, a new UK-based politics, culture and arts journal, campaigning blog and website. var href = document.location.href; href = href.substring(0,href.indexOf("?")); document.write(href); http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/pakistan/03-the-bad-sufi-ss-02   From aliens at dataone.in Sat May 1 16:34:19 2010 From: aliens at dataone.in (Bipin Trivedi) Date: Sat, 01 May 2010 16:34:19 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Yousuf & Manmohan In-Reply-To: <528328.1642.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <528328.1642.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000001cae91e$0c7eaec0$257c0c40$@in> Chidambarm and Antony both are against to initiate any dialogue with Pakistan, but still Manmohan strangely insisting to carry out dialogue seems to be working under total influence of US. > -----Original Message----- > From: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net [mailto:reader-list- > bounces at sarai.net] On Behalf Of Kshmendra Kaul > Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2010 4:02 PM > To: Sarai Reader-list; yasir ~يا سر > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Yousuf & Manmohan > > Touting religion to promote love is a short step away from using > religion to propagate hate. No better example of the latter than the > Pakistani Nation. > > Manmohan Singh, as the Prime Minister of a supposedly secular India, > has no business to use 'religion' for managing India's External > Affairs. > > Wonder why Manmohan Singh did not go the full distance and remind > Pakistan's PM and others in the SARC summit, of the "Hindu Heritage" > of Pakistanis. > > Kshmendra > > --- On Thu, 4/29/10, yasir ~يا سر wrote: > > > From: yasir ~يا سر > Subject: [Reader-list] Yousuf & Manmohan > To: "Sarai Reader-list" > Date: Thursday, April 29, 2010, 11:06 PM > > > Historic walk of two prime ministers > *Gilani’s ancestors helped build Golden Temple > * > http://www.thenews.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=28551 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sat May 1 16:40:36 2010 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sat, 1 May 2010 04:10:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Yousuf & Manmohan In-Reply-To: <000001cae91e$0c7eaec0$257c0c40$@in> Message-ID: <55879.51406.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Bipin   There is no doubt in my mind that there should be dialogue with Pakistan. I have not seen PC Chidambaram or AK Anthony either advising against it. They would be fools if they did so and they are not fools.   Terms and conduct of the dialogue should be honest and frank without glossing over critical concerns.   Kshmendra --- On Sat, 5/1/10, Bipin Trivedi wrote: From: Bipin Trivedi Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Yousuf & Manmohan To: "'Kshmendra Kaul'" Cc: "sarai-list" Date: Saturday, May 1, 2010, 4:34 PM Chidambarm and Antony both are against to initiate any dialogue with Pakistan, but still Manmohan strangely insisting to carry out dialogue seems to be working under total influence of US. > -----Original Message----- > From: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net [mailto:reader-list- > bounces at sarai.net] On Behalf Of Kshmendra Kaul > Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2010 4:02 PM > To: Sarai Reader-list; yasir ~يا سر > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Yousuf & Manmohan > > Touting religion to promote love is a short step away from using > religion to propagate hate. No better example of the latter than the > Pakistani Nation. > > Manmohan Singh, as the Prime Minister of a supposedly secular India, > has no business to use 'religion' for managing India's External > Affairs. > > Wonder why Manmohan Singh did not go the full distance and remind > Pakistan's PM and others in the SARC summit, of the "Hindu Heritage" > of Pakistanis. > > Kshmendra > > --- On Thu, 4/29/10, yasir ~يا سر wrote: > > > From: yasir ~يا سر > Subject: [Reader-list] Yousuf & Manmohan > To: "Sarai Reader-list" > Date: Thursday, April 29, 2010, 11:06 PM > > > Historic walk of two prime ministers > *Gilani’s ancestors helped build Golden Temple > * > http://www.thenews.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=28551 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From yasir.media at gmail.com Sun May 2 00:09:05 2010 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?eWFzaXIgftmK2Kcg2LPYsQ==?=) Date: Sat, 1 May 2010 23:39:05 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Yousuf & Manmohan In-Reply-To: <528328.1642.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <528328.1642.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: dont worry there are enough people in Pakistan to remind other pakistanis of the hindu and buddhist heritage. hope you will not overlook that. using religion to promote love - whats wrong with that ! ? y On Sat, May 1, 2010 at 3:32 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Touting religion to promote love is a short step away from using religion > to propagate hate. No better example of the latter than the Pakistani > Nation. > > Manmohan Singh, as the Prime Minister of a supposedly secular India, has no > business to use 'religion' for managing India's External Affairs. > > Wonder why Manmohan Singh did not go the full distance and remind > Pakistan's PM and others in the SARC summit, of the "Hindu Heritage" > of Pakistanis. > > Kshmendra > > --- On *Thu, 4/29/10, yasir ~يا سر * wrote: > > > From: yasir ~يا سر > Subject: [Reader-list] Yousuf & Manmohan > To: "Sarai Reader-list" > Date: Thursday, April 29, 2010, 11:06 PM > > Historic walk of two prime ministers > *Gilani’s ancestors helped build Golden Temple > * > http://www.thenews.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=28551 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > From yasir.media at gmail.com Sun May 2 04:52:40 2010 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?eWFzaXIgftmK2Kcg2LPYsQ==?=) Date: Sun, 2 May 2010 04:22:40 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] "The bad Sufi" In-Reply-To: <111250.93710.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <111250.93710.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: if in your thinking you go through this, i will add that you again arrive on similar ground, in which most people prefer or lets say dont know better than to follow the docile sufi behaviour of supporting the status quo. let alone the landlord-sufi types for now. that is this is definitely not wahhabi. you're mixing things up. the class element of this is qalandar;'s point and i find it valid (also as in sarah ansari's book on british patronage of certain pir families), that sufism offers no way out. this is arguable for other reasons such as histories of orders, leave that alone too. your scepticism is going haywire without ground. yes, qalandar describes the majority of pakistan's attitude well. there is no radical social move (either other islamic or islamic sufi kind that challenges the staus quo). the absence of this is a problem. it should be there. most religious rhetoric has just petered out. best On Sat, May 1, 2010 at 3:45 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Manmohan Singh's (paraphrased) exultation "Isnt it great!!!!! Yousuf > Gilani's ancestors helped my ancestors build the Golden Temple" reminded me > of the article posted below. (Prompted by Gilani's roots being traced to a > Sufi Order.) > > Kshmendra > > > "The bad Sufi" > By Qalandar Bux Memon > Tuesday, 26 Jan, 2010 > > It is often assumed that Sufism stands opposed to Wahhabism. Wrong. Sufism > and Wahhabism, in fact, share a fatal characteristic – they are religions of > the status quo. In Pakistan, Sufism legitimises barbarities of inequality > and starvation – ‘do nothing, it’s god’s will’ - while at the same time > justifying structures of oppressive power, Pirism and landlordism, rather > like Wahhabism in Saudi Arabia. Contemporary Sufism, rather than being a > solution to Pakistan’s problems, is the cause. > > > > > > > I was sitting at the shrine of Shah Kamal in Lahore, with the dhol beats > and whirling dervishes dancing to connect to the ‘centre of the universe in > themselves’, when a friend turned and pointed to an old German fellow > sitting a few meters from us. “He just delivered a lecture on Sufism. He is > an expert on the subject, and talked about how it’s a religion of peace and > love.” > > I replied curtly: “Have you ever been in love? Have you had your heart > broken? What peace is there in that state? What peace was there when Mansur > had his head chopped off on the orders of the Baghdadi Emperor? What peace > was there when Shah Inayat was fighting against the Mughal emperor for his > life and that of his commune? What peace is there in Sassui’s peeling feet > as she searches for her beloved through the desert of Sindh?” > > My friend agreed and said: “But they pay me – I have to go along with > them.” > > Western and Pakistani policymakers think Islam can be codified as either a > religion of peace and love and given the brand of Sufism, or as a religion > of violent jihad. They think it’s better, at this point in time, to promote > the peaceful religion of Sufism. > > Note how the word Islam is taken out – Sufism is codified as not really > Islam. Thus Sufism is considered a perfect native antidote to the violent > religion of Islam. > > Why are dollars, pounds, rupees and Euros going to promote Sufism? What is > it about today’s Sufism that allows it to serve a purpose for the American > empire, and what function does it play locally in Pakistan? > > The answer was hard for me to stomach. I had spent much time researching > aspects of Sufism, and I thought I’d found a touchstone from which to > articulate a spirituality that was socially radical and politically > challenging to Pakistan’s parasitic elite and the US/Nato invaders. Ziauddin > Sardar, polymath writer and scholar of Islam, forced me to face the facts. > > He called Sufism “docile”, acting as an opiate for the masses, with most > Pirs/Syeds/Sufis amounting to nothing short of “confidence tricksters”. And > indeed, Sufism is docile. A shopkeeper in Main Market, Gulberg, had an > emblem of the Sufi saint Lal Qalandar hanging in his shop, which he had got > from Sehraw Sharif, Sindh, the town where the saint is buried. He said that > “what these people do not realise is that 80 per cent of what we pray at the > shrine [of Lal Qalandar] comes true.” A popular song sung across the Punjab > at Sufi shrines tells women that if they light a lantern at the shrine of > saints, their desire for a ‘son’ will be answered. > > Items given by holy Pirs - threads, rings, blessings, and even sexual > induction before marriage (in the case of a notorious Sindhi landlord/Pir) - > are taken as altering the universe and leading to the granting of prayers of > health, wealth, and other worthy claims by this mass of the wretched that is > the Pakistani citizen. It is not only candles and lanterns that are lit at > the shrines; money is exchanged and power is sustained. It is this power > that has created a “docile” Sufism. > > Pakistan is a vastly unequal society. Government figures put those below > the poverty line at close to 40 per cent of the population, though the true > figure may be closer to 50 per cent. Inequity is the hallmark of the Sindh > province of Pakistan, which is celebrated as “the land of the Sufis” and is > where Sufis and Pirs hold power. A recent World Bank report noted that > Sindh has the narrowest distribution of land ownership, with the richest one > per cent of farmers owning 150 per cent more land than the bottom 62 per > cent of farmers put together. Feudal landlords in vast parts of Sindh have > holdings of thousands of acres, and most of them are Syeds or Pirs. These > lands were sometimes acquired during the Mughal era but were largely > consolidated during the British colonial rule in India. The British, looking > for local collaborators, found Sufi Pirs willing to oblige. > > Sarah Ansari, in her book, Sufi Saints and State Power: The Pirs of Sind, > 1843-1947, notes: ‘the Sindhi Pirs participated in the British system of > control in order to protect their privileges and to extend them further > whenever and wherever possible’. > > Today’s feudalists are keen to protect and promote “docile” Sufism to > sustain their wealth and power – this time with US help. > > Wealth is created by a pool of landless serfs who toil thousands of acres > for their spiritual masters, while seeing their own children starve. These > serfs create the wealth that sends the Bhuttos and the Gilanis to > universities such as Oxford and Harvard, while their children get > “blessings” and threads of “Pirs”. This stream of inequity from generation > to generation is based on a lame theological idea, which nonetheless has > been promoted by the Mughal Empire, the British Empire, the landlords > themselves, and now by the American Empire, and thanks to such patronage has > gained far more ground than the Taliban. It states that the Prophet was > given divine light/knowledge, which passes on to his descendents. These > descendents append the honorific title of ‘Syed’ [literally, ‘master’], and > claim divine and material privileges. > > Pirs justify their superiority on a similar argument – they were given the > light, and this light continues to radiate in their descendants. At a > recital of the poetry of the radical Sufi Waris Shah held each year in > Lahore, the descendents of Iman Bari Sarkar (a Pir) enter the arena to be > received with awe and sought for blessings by the crowd. The recital stops > and they are escorted to the front and seated. All eyes are on these holy > men who are not only descendents of a Pir but also Syeds – thus, doubly > blessed with ‘light’! And then they begin expounding their ideology: “We the > Syeds get different treatment from God Almighty, for our good deeds we get > double the reward compared to ‘murids’ [non-Syeds] who only get single > reward for a single good deed … but, it’s not easy to be a Syed … [he > laughs] … we have to suffer double the punishment for our any wrong deeds > whereas you [non-Syeds] get only single punishment for a single > wrong deed!” > > There you have it! Our holy man explains why he has a Land Cruiser jeep and > “non-Syeds” have donkey carts. He explains why most Pakistanis are living in > poverty while he and his Syeds and Pirs are lapping it up in luxury. > > Contemporary Sufism is the ideology of Sindh’s landlords. It is the > ideology that is used to uphold their wealth and despotism, and keeps > millions in serfdom. A similar pattern is repeated throughout Pakistan. > Given the lack of proportional representation and the vast inequality in > power in each district between Pirs and the rest, it is almost always the > case that elections flood parliament with Pirs/Syeds/landlords. The current > Pakistani Prime Minister (Syed Yousaf Raza Gilani) and Foreign Minister > (Makhdoom Shah Mehmood Qureshi) are examples. Both have the claim of being > descended from Holy Pirs as the basis of their wealth and distinction. As a > result, we cannot expect parliament to challenge inequity and injustice in > Pakistan. > > Parliamentarians know that lack of education, coupled with the obscurantism > of contemporary Sufism, sustains their power. Like the British before them, > the Americans don’t care about Pakistan’s growing multitude of serfs and the > underclass, they don’t care whether the Prime Minister and the Foreign > Minister of Pakistan are deeply rooted in the cause of inequity and > injustice in the country and part of the promotion of a system of starvation > – a Sufism that tells people to take a blessing instead of demanding food, > education, justice and liberty. Like the British, they will fund whoever > furthers their interests. We, however, must care. > > This is an article by Qalandar Bux Memon, editor of Naked Punch, from the > The Samosa, a new UK-based politics, culture and arts journal, campaigning > blog and website. > > > > > > var href = document.location.href; > href = href.substring(0,href.indexOf("?")); > document.write(href); > > > http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/pakistan/03-the-bad-sufi-ss-02 > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From aliens at dataone.in Sun May 2 11:39:51 2010 From: aliens at dataone.in (Bipin Trivedi) Date: Sun, 02 May 2010 11:39:51 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Yousuf & Manmohan Message-ID: <001601cae9be$13fcc0b0$3bf64210$@in> Dear Kshemendra, PC and Antony goes back door whenever dialogue initiates. They have rightly never shown any initiative as such particularly after 26/11. You have rightly said terms and conduct of the dialogue should be honest and frank without glossing over critical concerns. But, unfortunately honest and frank dialogue should not be one way and this binding Pakistan is not obeying since years and we cannot tolerate it indefinitely for the years. There should be some tolerating limit and we almost arrived at this limit. We have bow down many times earlier against Pakistan mischief. As I have mentioned earlier that Pakistan becomes rogue state unless we resolve Kashmir issue with their eye (means handover J&K to them), their ISI and army never stop spreading terror to Indian subcontinent. In this situation do you think any dialogue will have fruitful result? Do you think we should handover J&K to them? India will never does this and there is no end of it. Now, it’s time for India to take some hard action in the near future. Thanks Bipin From: Kshmendra Kaul [mailto:kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com] Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2010 4:41 PM To: Bipin Trivedi Cc: sarai-list Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Yousuf & Manmohan Dear Bipin There is no doubt in my mind that there should be dialogue with Pakistan. I have not seen PC Chidambaram or AK Anthony either advising against it. They would be fools if they did so and they are not fools. Terms and conduct of the dialogue should be honest and frank without glossing over critical concerns. Kshmendra --- On Sat, 5/1/10, Bipin Trivedi wrote: From: Bipin Trivedi Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Yousuf & Manmohan To: "'Kshmendra Kaul'" Cc: "sarai-list" Date: Saturday, May 1, 2010, 4:34 PM Chidambarm and Antony both are against to initiate any dialogue with Pakistan, but still Manmohan strangely insisting to carry out dialogue seems to be working under total influence of US. > -----Original Message----- > From: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net [mailto:reader-list- > bounces at sarai.net ] On Behalf Of Kshmendra Kaul > Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2010 4:02 PM > To: Sarai Reader-list; yasir ~يا سر > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Yousuf & Manmohan > > Touting religion to promote love is a short step away from using > religion to propagate hate. No better example of the latter than the > Pakistani Nation. > > Manmohan Singh, as the Prime Minister of a supposedly secular India, > has no business to use 'religion' for managing India's External > Affairs. > > Wonder why Manmohan Singh did not go the full distance and remind > Pakistan's PM and others in the SARC summit, of the "Hindu Heritage" > of Pakistanis. > > Kshmendra > > --- On Thu, 4/29/10, yasir ~يا سر > wrote: > > > From: yasir ~يا سر > > Subject: [Reader-list] Yousuf & Manmohan > To: "Sarai Reader-list" > > Date: Thursday, April 29, 2010, 11:06 PM > > > Historic walk of two prime ministers > *Gilani’s ancestors helped build Golden Temple > * > http://www.thenews.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=28551 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From cashmeeri at yahoo.com Sun May 2 14:05:33 2010 From: cashmeeri at yahoo.com (cashmeeri) Date: Sun, 2 May 2010 01:35:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Holding on to paradise Message-ID: <224835.36994.qm@web112618.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> "Sadly, within a couple of decades after I left Kashmir – slowly, slyly at first, and then at an accelerated speed – life as we knew it, unselfconsciously sublime, lay in ruins.    I am not talking about Kashmiriyat, though that might have been the state of affairs in the Valley before it was politicized, bottled, labelled and sold as such.   Like Eurydice, it disappeared the moment we turned back to look at it. But it had been a lifestyle that came to us as easily as breathing, one we later recognized in a dialectical way by its antithesis.   Predictably, our precarious equilibrium did not survive the global onslaught of terrorism and the inculcated hatred that feeds it."   http://www.india-seminar.com/2009/600/600_sudha_koul.htm     Holding on to paradise SUDHA KOUL   WHEN invited to write about how true I could be as a writer dealing with personal and human issues, particularly when writing The Tiger Ladies – a Memoir of Kashmir, I immediately accepted. I was quite chuffed at being asked to write for Seminar. Having said yes, though, it soon became apparent to me that there was a problem. For the question how true could I be, the answer was one word: completely. However, that would not do, I had to go in the opposite direction of the synoptic, ‘The conscious water saw its God and blushed.’ And I certainly needed to explain ‘completely’ at length, if only because it seems so improbable now, given the events in Kashmir.   I lived in Kashmir until 1968. Instead of travelling with the family on my father’s army postings, I stayed on with my grandparents in the Valley. For me it was the best place in the world, not least of all because of my grandfather, beloved professor of English Literature and all round Sufi. So it was for Kashmiris of all persuasions, for droves of tourists who came by air or land, and for natives coming back home for summer holidays. The air was pure, the cultural zephyr so free, and you could not beat the landscape. Of course, let us not forget the food, the most delicious fare you could find anywhere. But eventually the wider world beckoned and after getting a Master’s degree in political science at the University of Jammu and Kashmir, I left to teach at Lady Shri Ram College. The next year I was selected to the IAS.   Being the first Kashmiri woman in the Service did not seem sufficient reason to stay put when my future husband appeared on the horizon. I jumped at marriage and the prospect of children, and followed him to the US. In retrospect, not a particularly bright thing to do, giving up a career so willingly, and certainly quite a let down to my Principal, Mahmuda Ahmed Ali Shah of the Women’s College on Residency Road. A handsome descendant of Gujjars, the greatest educator and emancipator of Kashmiri women, she had proudly displayed my picture as a frontispiece in the college magazine. Other professors felt dismayed as well, and they let me know. But there it was: the eternal duvidha of the Womb and the Woman.   I left in the early seventies, and in many ways Kashmir remained fossilized within me. I believe this phenomenon to be true of most immigrants; they subconsciously imagine things will remain exactly as they left them. They don’t want to believe that ‘you can never go home again.’ This turned out to be devastatingly true for me.     I set up house in the US, had two children, and everything was as it had promised to be. But soon, growing restlessness with a purely domestic grind (particularly the absence of household help that cheap labour in India gets us addicted to) had me dreaming of the past. Debates and plays at college in Srinagar, my teaching stint in New Delhi, on particularly bad days even the Allahabad katchery, the lonely (I was the only woman official for miles and had to keep myself to myself) yellow mustard fields of my winter tours and ghost-ridden dak bungalows. It was clear I had to transcend being completely household bound; even more importantly, I had to retrieve my standing with my disappointed mentors and myself as well. But children and attendant obligations necessitated it be something I do from home; too many horror stories of baby sitters.   I have always written, unheeded and unpublished, except for the schoolgirl poetry I read over Radio Kashmir. So I started writing in the US as well, though I had not found my writing voice, which is why my first two books were manuals, written between chores, nothing that required sustained involvement. The books Curries Without Worries and Come With Me to India were good enough, but not anything to write home to the Women’s College about. Besides, I had begun to fancy myself as a creative writer and these two just did not fit the bill. It would take something momentous to get me to write the way I wanted to.   While all these selfish little preoccupations overtook my predictable suburban American existence, a catastrophe was unfolding back home. Life as I knew it in Kashmir had started to self-destruct. When I left India the rumblings of discontent in Kashmir were becoming a little louder, but still so infrequently that one thought nothing of it. We who lived in Kashmir had for decades known that there were some who dreamt of Pakistan, and some of independence, and off and on we encountered something to that effect. But there was nothing ominous or imminent about it; people went about their business as usual and our lives continued apace.   Kashmiri Pandits belonged to a minority that was minuscule in size but huge in importance, both in their own complacent eyes and in the eyes of the Muslim majority, and no one noticed anything odd about their demographic profile. But increasingly, after the seventies, thanks to cross-border propaganda and within border governmental mismanagement, the thought that the Hindus did not warrant such excess in status began to take hold. While all this was brewing, we Pandits hardly realized our insignificance in the political game; we carried on in a surreal world where a microscopic minority walked about with no fear from a benign Muslim majority. We had taken it for granted ever since we could remember.     Sadly, within a couple of decades after I left Kashmir – slowly, slyly at first, and then at an accelerated speed – life as we knew it, unselfconsciously sublime, lay in ruins. I am not talking about Kashmiriyat, though that might have been the state of affairs in the Valley before it was politicized, bottled, labelled and sold as such. Like Eurydice, it disappeared the moment we turned back to look at it. But it had been a lifestyle that came to us as easily as breathing, one we later recognized in a dialectical way by its antithesis. Predictably, our precarious equilibrium did not survive the global onslaught of terrorism and the inculcated hatred that feeds it. By the nineties, Afghanistan and Kashmir were competing for news coverage of violence and terrorism and, by the end of the millennium, the charmed life we Kashmiris enjoyed was gone.     Where all my recollections and narratives had been about Kashmiris living together peaceably, legs intertwined as it were, now increasingly the news from home gave the lie to that fact. They say your stories should be about that which you know, but what did I know about Kashmir? My disoriented nerves were jarred by alternate legends of betrayal and trust. A childhood friend killing another under pretence of wanting to play the table tennis they both adored, Pandits handing over their house keys to Muslim neighbours before fleeing the Valley in transport provided by another Muslim friend.   Television and newspaper reportage, letters, phone calls, gossip from visiting relatives, came in wave upon wave, and while all too true, made no sense to me. Did this ugliness or evil exist in the years I lived in Kashmir? If so, it never came up before me or anyone else I knew. The complete evaporation of the bucolic world I had left behind had been accomplished, and worse, replaced by barbaric impossibilities that soon proved to be all too real. My Valley was no longer recognizable; I had to find my feet again no matter how impossible it seemed, if only to retain my sanity.   The only way to go about that, from where I was, was to write. Of course, I always thought I’d write about Kashmir, just for my girls if nothing else. They had such a different childhood as first generation children of immigrants, with all the attendant angst of people not yet rooted in the soil. The only antidote was their solid, long-standing background, their deep roots in a rare Valley. But their antecedents were fast disappearing, as were the generations before me; soon there would be no proof that that world had actually existed. I was the only connection, and unless I got down to it and captured Kashmir and what it meant to us in some form, it would become the stuff of myth, hearsay without documentary evidence.     The worse the situation became in Kashmir, the more determinedly I wrote, with no thought of repercussions or political correctness. My children had gone back to Kashmir several times. They knew some of the life I was writing about, the people involved, and I could not allow it all to become chimerical. The more impossible the recounting, the more essential it be done, before my mind was befuddled by violence and propaganda, my memory swallowed by the ensuing rhetoric, demagoguery and media explosion. I would put it down chronologically to set the record straight, as it were. Yet, I wondered in the face of what was coming out of Kashmir now, had I dreamt it all, how could it be so different from what I knew?   In retrospect I don’t think I would have written The Tiger Ladies if I did not live miles away from Kashmir. Perhaps the distance allowed me to write with a larger heart than I might have had, had I lived in the Valley. Bereft at the loss of my Kashmiri life, I tossed and turned until I finally found my tongue. I could write only if I wrote without compromise, without anger, so that there would be some place where my Valley continued to exist, where I could revisit it.   Those days I seemed to be one of the few persistently talking about what had been. Kashmir made its violent debut in international media soon after Afghanistan did, and for the most part the world could not tell the two apart. A deluge of analysis, reportage, and more analysis followed; writers were embroiled in the business of understanding or explaining exactly what happened. An international blame game was afoot; people tried to fit Kashmir into moulds they could easily hate.   Now I have nothing against Afghanistan, but anyone can tell you its topography and terrain are quite different from the lush green valley of Kashmir, not to mention the warlike Afghan culture which is at the other end of the spectrum from the pacific sufism of the Valley. But all across the media, Kashmiris were portrayed as just an offshoot of some Afghani tribal faction, guns in hand, faces masked, walking bleak forbidding mountains. The internet was populated by the corpses of Kashmiri Pandits who had been raped and killed just for being Hindu and over populated Muslim graveyards. This could not be denied. Kashmir had become just another violent mountain nation, but I was writing about a Kashmir where this would have been horrifying anathema. Mutual respect and affection was a truth so self-evident then, but now it was dismissed, albeit understandably, as the creation of a bleeding heart liberal.     Fortunately, I received my entire education in a Kashmir where you never had to worry about being politically or otherwise correct. We were and I believe still are a valley of mad men and women, revering lunacy and beatifying it. The Muslims led a full religious, economic, cultural and political life, and so did the Hindus, sometimes even praying at the same shrines, wishing each other, participating in traditional and new ways in each other’s spiritual preoccupations. I was uninhibited by experience. Besides what was my agenda? I was not planning to clamber on to a podium and point fingers, although God knows I did not have enough fingers for runaway corruption, poverty, the emasculation, derision and cultural ignorance, the seduction of violence, the quick fix promised by terrorism, to name a few culprits. There was enough of that, reams on what Kashmir had become.     But no one bothered about what it had been. My mandate was clear. In Kashmir we used to just have friends; now one spoke of Kashmiri Muslim or Hindu friends. True, when we met in the US we still shared an infatuation with the motherland, and memories of Kashmiri life and literature and music. But now, after the fall, there was a glass divide, we could see each other clearly through it; it was the same person, only one could not reach out in the same way.   Had everyone forgotten, I wondered? Had anyone archived our life together?   Perhaps I did have a tiny agenda, now that the two Kashmirs, Pandit and Muslim, seemed irreconcilable. Perhaps I tried in my own way, to heal, a difficult if not foolish task. But to quote my dearest friend, the brilliant Kashmiri poet Agha Shahid Ali, who is no more and we are so much the poorer for it:   ‘Who is the guardian tonight of the Gates of Paradise? My memory is again in the way of your history.’ (Country Without a Post Office, Norton, 1997)   Whatever happened to a Muslim friend running through the streets of Srinagar in the middle of the night, banging on our door when her father suffered a diabetic collapse, not stopping at the nearest Muslim’s house? One did not think then of houses as having a religious persuasion. Or the two old Muslim retainers in our house with power of life and death over us and our friends as well, should we transgress in the absence of our elders gone on a long visit, usually by doonga to a Hindu shrine. It was hard to imagine that if the two, long gone, came back to life again, I would not be able to entrust my infant daughters to them. They were ours and we theirs.     The memories of all Kashmiris were now smoked by the smell of gunpowder. It was not only the Muslims, who thanks to proactive governments had seen a remarkable resurgence in line with their numbers, who were saying they were disenfranchised and oppressed. Even the Hindus now started recounting their past in Kashmir as sorrowful and persecuted.   Can anyone believe today that when our relatives in the old city on Safa Kadal, the Seventh Bridge on the Jhelum, had a wedding, we girls would walk home to suburbia after mehndiraat or lagan in the middle of the night singing at the moon, accompanied only by a servant who was as likely to be a Muslim as a Hindu? This was in the 1960s. And now, bloodshed and rapes and dislocation! It was just convenient to paint everyone with the same large brush; hence the Muslims were all terrorists or sympathizers and the Hindus were all in cahoots with the repressive Indian government. The catechism was: if you are not with us, you must be against us.   Would it be possible to extricate a clear whole recollection from the pile of debris that Kashmiri life had become?   I threw myself into writing with intense dedication. Getting my manuscript published was a very remote possibility, so I had nothing to fear. There was no danger that anything I wrote would make any difference, I should be so lucky, I thought. There was no expectation of readership, no fear of repercussion, no circumspection; I was irrelevant to the disaster. The situation in Kashmir was not delicate or volatile any more, it was out of hand and out of luck.     The incontrovertible fact was that one way or the other when the snowflakes settled in Srinagar, the Kashmiri Pandits were gone. An entire generation of Kashmiri Muslims has now grown up without Hindus in their midst. We were different or so we thought, and had lived with Muslims; for us they just had another religion, they were not the other. When I said this to newly radicalized Pandits, I was shooed or booed. Their home, their homeland, their flora and fauna upon which their utterly irreplaceable liturgical life was based had gone. It could not be regained, literally and figuratively, and all for no fault of theirs. There was no historical precedent for this outburst of mutual spleen and they were in no mood for understanding. If and when the book is published, I thought, no Kashmiri is going to read it; the Muslims will think I am a collaborator and the Pandits will think I betrayed them.   I kept my eyes on the prize. Unless one knew what had existed before it was difficult to assess what was lost. There was still was no archive of the mutually respectful and loving coexistence Pandits and Muslims had in Kashmir, and the reason for this was obvious. The tsunami came upon us so suddenly, so to speak; no one had thought our life in Kashmir was endangered and had to be recorded. We thought we would go on living in Kashmir forever; no one thought spontaneous combustion by hell fire would consume an entire culture.   Did I hold back anything? I don’t think so. Did I avoid any issue? I don’t think so. It was not a political analysis of the situation, though like it or not the markers for my story were political events and developments.   However, there was one area in which I was circumspect; I had to make sure there was no invasion into the privacy of the people in the book. This presented a conundrum. I was writing a memoir, so what was I to do? My agent rescued me. She said the gamut runs from autobiography to literary memoir, with memoir somewhere in between. A literary memoir allowed me some license; I took that and ran. My grandmother is my grandmother but on that peg I hung other pictures as well, many composites.     Gratifyingly, at a time when Pandits and Muslims were mourning separately, with nothing to say to each other, letters and phone calls from Kashmiris of all stripes told me how my book had moved them. Even Pandits who thought I was too lenient in my view of Kashmiri Muslims and Muslims who openly acknowledge their desire for independence, now that Pakistan has lost much of its shine, acknowledged our ancient commonweal, now in shards.   I had not judged between competing truths, mainly because I could not. Being so far away physically and culturally, I recorded what I remembered. They might not agree with me on every page, but they know where I come from.   But is it enough for us to regain Paradise Lost?   From shuddha at sarai.net Sun May 2 15:44:52 2010 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Sun, 2 May 2010 15:44:52 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Swami and Friends: JTSA Replies to Praveen Swami Message-ID: <0E084C69-7374-4127-8CF1-6A4DEB553AEB@sarai.net> Dear All, for those interested in the debate on the so called Batla House Encounter and its reportage. This is the JTSA's response (sent out today) to Praveen Swami's rejoinder to them, which was posted by Aditya Raj Kaul on this list, some days ago. And, may I add, I do not believe that anyone should be prevented from posting material by people like Praveen Swami on this list. I find it always interesting to read his very imaginative prose. Naturally, when we are offered material that comes from sources such as Praveen Swami, it will be sooner or later, contested, especially as there is a great deal to contest, and usually because it (Mr.Swami's writing) is so imaginative. I see no trouble at all in some of us sharing on this list the skills that we (and others) have acquired over our years of acquaintance with Mr. Swami's prose style in being able to see through his imagination, in order to reveal it for what it is. best Shuddha _______________________________ Jamia Teachers’ Solidarity Association 1st May 2010 Swami and Friends We are greatly surprised and also, one may add, a little amused at this display of victimhood on the part of Praveen Swami and his friends. It appears that we are to forget that Swami churns out one column after another in a national daily, week after week, giving detailed expositions of the guilt of those who are still awaiting trials. Ms Annie Zaidi in her letter to the editor of countercurrents, the website where our statement first appeared, seems so exercised by our accusations against Mr. Swami, but it does not concern her when her friend and ex-boss writes, to give just one example, about Abu Bashar, a poor maulana from Azamgarh, as a jihadist. (“Islamism, Modernity and Indian Mujahideen”, March 32, 2010, The Hindu) Does she not realize that Bashar’s trial could be vitiated and prejudiced by Swami’s public indictments? Our humble email campaign is being pitted as a grave injustice to Swami’s journalistic integrity, but the inequality between JTSA and the might of the Hindu group (and Swami’s clout within it) is apparent to anyone not ‘blinded by faith’. We may add here that Swami is an absolute non-entity for us. JTSA was formed in the aftermath of the Batla House ‘encounter’; when a group of teachers at Jamia Millia Islamia felt that the police story about the ‘encounter; was riddled with holes, and we came together to campaign for truth and justice. Our fight is against the State and its agencies, and the fact that it refused any free and fair enquiry into the ‘encounter’ strengthens our conviction that the State does not wish the truth to be revealed. Our limited interest in Swami is only because he appears to be an apologist for the State. We have no personal interest in Swami, we assure his friends and well wishers. However it is entirely reasonable and justified for anyone to issue public statements against someone’s politics—and Swami’s politics is clearly Statist and strangely unquestioning for an investigative journalist. It is no crime to raise doubts about a certain kind of reportage which merely parrots the investigators’ claims; surely Swami is not alone in pushing the Home Ministry’s agenda, but he certainly is the undisputed king of this. To fear that one’s writings would be ‘challenged by those who don’t agree’ is intellectual dishonesty and crass arrogance at the least. As for the Swami’s defence, we would like to submit the following: I Swami says that it’s no one’s business who the source of his story is; fair enough, though he shouldn’t baulk when he is criticized for consistent reliance on investigators and their dossiers alone. It is the accuracy of information, he says, which should be the issue. Very good! Except how do you measure the accuracy of statements such as these? a) “Bored by the religious polemic, though, Bashar’s students [alleged IM bombers] turned instead to Anurag Kashyap’s movie Black Friday…” (“Islamism, Modernity and Indian Mujahideen”, March 32, 2010, The Hindu) b) “Early in the summer of 2004, investigators say, the core members of the network that was later to call itself the Indian Mujahideen met at Bhatkal’s beachfront to discuss their plans. Iqbal Shahbandri and Bhatkal-based cleric Shabbir Gangoli are alleged to have held ideological classes; the group also took time out to practice shooting with airguns. Bawa had overall charge of arrangements — a task that illustrated his status as the Bhatkal brothers’ most trusted lieutenant.” (The Rebirth of the Indian Mujahideen”, 19th April 2010, The Hindu) One could provide a n endless list of such assertions that Swami makes. The only source of this supposedly accurate information can be chargesheets (which to repeat what we said in the last post, are only chargesheets, not proven guilt) or custodial confessions. On the question of the new footage, why does the Pune Police continue to be unimpressed with ATS’s naming of Bhatkal? Why do they say that the ATS is after “usual suspects’? (see http://epaper.mailtoday.in/ Details.aspxboxid=2310463&id=35313&issuedate=1242010) II On the Batla House ‘encounter’, Swami responds thus: The National Human Rights Commission studied the same evidence I did— and more which was not available when I wrote. It says: “…swabs which were taken from the right hands of Mohd Atif Ameen and Modh Sajid by the doctors at the time of post mortem in AIIMS were sent in sealed bottles to CFSL for dermal nitrate tests in the laboratory. The same were found to contain gun shot residue. This conclusively establishes that Mohd Atif Ameen and Mohd Sajid had both used fire arms at the time of incident”. [5] Unless it believes that the NHRC is an intelligence agency, the allegation made by the JTSA is untrue. We have maintained and reiterate it even more strongly now, after the publication of the post mortem reports, that the National Human Rights Commission studied the evidence placed before it selectively, and willfully ignored all contrary evidence. The only so-called clinching evidence against the two slain boys is the presence of gun shot residue on their right hands, which in NHRC’s words quoted by Swami, “conclusively establishes that Atif and Sajid had both used fire arms at the time of incident.” However the presence of Gun shot residue (GSR) is hardly ‘conclusive’ evidence. For several years now, forensic scientists have cautioned against the enthusiasm of prosecutors to push for GSR as crucial evidence, for these reasons: 1) GSR is like a cloud of invisible particles, which can be inadvertently shaken off by the shooter with the shake of a hand, even a single swift movement or rubbing of hands etc. It easily transfers to clothes or car seats etc. 2) It is entirely possible for non-shooters to be contaminated by GSR. Police vehicles are particularly prone to GSR contamination and non shooters can likely acquire GSR traveling in vehicles ferrying shooters, or in which shooters have previously travelled. Indeed, experiments conducted by forensic scientists have revealed that even those non-shooters who entered a room a few minutes after there had been firing acquired GSR. 3) Particles that are ostensibly peculiar to GSR can be produced in ways other than fire shots, for example particles similar to GSR can be found in brake linings. (Among others, see New Scientist, 23 November 2005, magazine issue 2527/ http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg18825274.300-why-we- cannot-rely-on-firearm-forensics.html?full=true) So really, GSR is hardly the kind of clinching evidence that the NHRC, and following it, Swami would have us believe. Indeed, as the post mortem reports clearly demonstrate, the two boys were shot from a close range, making it that much easier for GSR to be deposited on their on their bodies. Second, he responds to our charge of refusing to comment on the Batla House ‘encounter’ in light of the post-mortem reports: "I didn’t. I still don’t. Having studied the available evidence, the NHRC concluded: “In such circumstances, the action taken by the police party in which Mohd. Atif Ameen and Mohd. Sajid received fatal injuries and died is fully protected by law”. [6] Parenthetically, I note that members of the Facebook group I believe the 2008 Batla House encounter was FAKE insist that “not only the JTSA report, but also NHRC (a statutory body of GOI) says that the encounter is fake”. Either these people have not read the NHRC report—or are lying." (from Swami's rejoinder to the JTSA text) At the cost of repeating ourselves, we would like to place the following facts: The NHRC’s ‘available evidence’ consisted of the statements of senior police officers: 1) R.R. Upadhayay, Additional Commissioner of Police, Vigilance; 2) Satish Chandra, Special Commissioner of Police (Vigilance), Delhi; 3) Neeraj Thakur, DCP (Crime & Rly.), Delhi; 4) Karnail Singh, Joint Commissioner of Police, Special Cell, Delhi. These are the very same people who were being supposedly investigated. Not a single neighbour from Batla House or family member of the deceased was called for deposition to verify or cross check the police version despite them having filed applications wishing to testify before the Commission; the NHRC did not even bother to visit the site of the ‘encounter’. Mr. Swami may not find it of interest that the NHRC did not deem it necessary to investigate the presence of non-firearm ante-mortem injuries; neither did it exercise the NHRC that the two boys did not receive a single bullet injury in the frontal region of their bodies—or that such evidence does not square with the statements made by the senior police officers’ descriptions of the sequence of events in their notes to the NHRC. III On our raising of Swami’s linking of Bhatkal and IM to the Bangalore stadium blasts, Swami says: "Leaving aside the minor irony here—the JTSA’s great faith in an embarrassed BJP politician—there are two facts that need to be recorded. In pursuit of the government’s “betting mafia” story, the Karnataka Police arrested five Uttar Pradesh suspects. Those suspects were cleared of any involvement in the attacks by the Uttar Pradesh Police. [8] Second, I clearly identified that suspicions directed at Mohammad Zarar Siddi Bawa, a.k.a. Yasin Bhatkal, were based on what investigators were telling me. Similarity in bomb design is quite evidently reasonable ground for suspicion—though it is not of course proof. Since I have no independent expertise in bomb forensics, the information was clearly attributed to investigators. Its up to readers whether they want to believe them or not." No body expects Swami to have independent expertise in bomb forensics, but independent reporting certainly. There were other journalists who were not buying the investigators’ story that the presence of easily available samay clocks could be proof alone of the omnipresent IM’s hand. “But as far as the suspects are concerned, it is turning out to be an old game for the Karnataka police. They have zeroed in on Riyaz Bhatkal and Bilal—who have been blamed for any terror attack on any part of the state for the past four years. The police do not have any evidence to link Bhatkal to the Bangalore blasts. The only premise on which their argument is based is the “similarity in planning the attacks”. Karnataka police's inability to make a breakthrough in the case has drawn flak. “It is highly intriguing that the police have not made any major breakthrough. They are trying to find scapegoats and hence naming the usual suspects," said Rakesh Para, a former intelligence officer of the Karnataka police.” ( http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/Story/93651/India/IPL+betting +mafia+behind+twin+blasts:+K'taka+HM.html ) There were also others who were willing to cite alternate theories: “Sources in Bangalore said the Indian Mujahideen is being linked to the April 17 bomb episode outside the cricket stadium largely on account of the presence of the clocks. “But as these clocks are easily available all over the country it is not easy to corroborate only on this basis or the usage of ammonium nitrate gel as the explosive,” said the sources. Karnataka DGP Ajai Kumar Singh said: ‘We are looking at the similarities between these blasts and blasts in other parts of the country. There are however a lot of dissimilarities between these blasts and the July 25 serial blasts in Bangalore’.” ( http://www.indianexpress.com/news/clock-in-stadium-bombs-points-at- im/609027/1 ) It is of course up to the readers to decide whether to believe the investigators or not, but surely by obfuscating other view points, Swami is telling his readers that the investigators information is the sole authoritative version of affairs. On the link between SIMI and IM and terrorism, he further writes: "I’m a little uncertain here about precisely what the allegation is here—but think the JTSA has some problem with my suggesting that SIMI and the Indian Mujahideen are linked to terrorism. I’m in good company, I think, in this belief. Javed Anand had a must-read article on the issue some time back. Yoginder Sikand had some good background earlier. If you’re willing to fork out a few bucks for more detail, do read C. Christine Fair on the subject. This is just a tiny part of a mass of literature—not including charge-sheets, trial records and so on—on the subject. You don’t need access to the Intelligence Services to access it—just a few hours in a good library" Yes indeed, we have a problem with Swami’s linking of SIMI and IM’s connection with terrorism, but in particular with his linking of these groups to the stadium blasts. And we are not in bad company either. In August 2008, Justice Geeta Mittal, who headed the High Court Tribunal on the ban on SIMI asked the Centre to produce any “fresh material” to “connect” the organisation to “bomb blasts, riots, destructive activities”. She said: “You say that SIMI is connected to bomb blasts, riots, destructive activities. Place specific material before me, you (Centre) cannot presume their involvement.” JTSA finds SIMI’s ideology abhorrent, particularly its views on women, but that does not mean that we are willing to let them be hanged on charges of terror when there is no evidence to prove it. Second, the IM’s links with SIMI are tenuous. The DGP of Gujarat, P.C. Pande provided a semantic link between SIMI and IM: “You remove S and I from ‘SIMI’ and you get IM, for Indian Mujahideen.” (Ahmedabad, Aug 16 2008, IANS) Well, it could as easily be argued that if you remove ‘B’ from IB and supplant it with ‘M’, you get IM. The only proof of this shadowy organisation’s existence are the dubious emails sent in the aftermath of the blasts claiming responsibility, and the lengthy chargesheets filed by the various police departments. We did not see any link between the life story about a supposed IM operative and the stadium blast, neither did Swami provide any in his rejoinder. As for trial records, Tehelka has done a series on SIMI which can be cited and which prove Swami’s confident assertions utterly wrong. These are also easily accessible on the Internet. Moreover, none of the IM trials have even begun for Swami to cite. As for forking out a few bucks for detail, don’t bother, because Christine Fair approvingly cites among others, Praveen Swami himself! Talk about friends in need, friends indeed! We cannot speak for either the Facebook Page I Believe the 2008 Batla House Encounter was fake or the page, Shut up Praveen Swami as none of us are members of either of the pages, but cannot help noticing that the ‘Shut Up Praveen Swami’ page was hacked into and destroyed on 28th April 2010. When its creator, re-started the page on the same night, it was again hacked into on 30th April 2010. PS: a member of the JTSA did indeed email the release to the Hindu on this email id openpage at hindu.co.in on 27th April 2010. We would be grateful to the editors of the Hindu were they to publish the entire text of the exchange, including our rejoinder to Swami’s response. It is a little unfair to ask us to circulate Swami’s email, as the Chief of Bureau asks us to in the name of ‘fairness’, when they have a newspaper and a weekly magazine at their disposal, which has always given Swami a free run. Released by the Jamia Teachers’ Solidarity Association (www.teacherssolidarity.org) On 29-Apr-10, at 11:38 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From pheeta.ram at gmail.com Sun May 2 23:45:17 2010 From: pheeta.ram at gmail.com (Pheeta Ram) Date: Sun, 2 May 2010 23:45:17 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Swami and Friends: JTSA Replies to Praveen Swami In-Reply-To: <0E084C69-7374-4127-8CF1-6A4DEB553AEB@sarai.net> References: <0E084C69-7374-4127-8CF1-6A4DEB553AEB@sarai.net> Message-ID: Kudos Shuddha! On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 3:44 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > Dear All, > > for those interested in the debate on the so called Batla House > Encounter and its reportage. This is the JTSA's response (sent out > today) to Praveen Swami's rejoinder to them, which was posted by > Aditya Raj Kaul on this list, some days ago. > > And, may I add, I do not believe that anyone should be prevented from > posting material by people like Praveen Swami on this list. I find it > always interesting to read his very imaginative prose. Naturally, > when we are offered material that comes from sources such as Praveen > Swami, it will be sooner or later, contested, especially as there is > a great deal to contest, and usually because it (Mr.Swami's writing) > is so imaginative. I see no trouble at all in some of us sharing on > this list the skills that we (and others) have acquired over our > years of acquaintance with Mr. Swami's prose style in being able to > see through his imagination, in order to reveal it for what it is. > > best > > Shuddha > _______________________________ > > > Jamia Teachers’ Solidarity Association > 1st May 2010 > Swami and Friends > > We are greatly surprised and also, one may add, a little amused at > this display of victimhood on the part of Praveen Swami and his > friends. It appears that we are to forget that Swami churns out one > column after another in a national daily, week after week, giving > detailed expositions of the guilt of those who are still awaiting > trials. Ms Annie Zaidi in her letter to the editor of > countercurrents, the website where our statement first appeared, > seems so exercised by our accusations against Mr. Swami, but it does > not concern her when her friend and ex-boss writes, to give just one > example, about Abu Bashar, a poor maulana from Azamgarh, as a > jihadist. (“Islamism, Modernity and Indian Mujahideen”, March 32, > 2010, The Hindu) Does she not realize that Bashar’s trial could be > vitiated and prejudiced by Swami’s public indictments? > > Our humble email campaign is being pitted as a grave injustice to > Swami’s journalistic integrity, but the inequality between JTSA and > the might of the Hindu group (and Swami’s clout within it) is > apparent to anyone not ‘blinded by faith’. We may add here that Swami > is an absolute non-entity for us. JTSA was formed in the aftermath of > the Batla House ‘encounter’; when a group of teachers at Jamia Millia > Islamia felt that the police story about the ‘encounter; was riddled > with holes, and we came together to campaign for truth and justice. > Our fight is against the State and its agencies, and the fact that it > refused any free and fair enquiry into the ‘encounter’ strengthens > our conviction that the State does not wish the truth to be revealed. > Our limited interest in Swami is only because he appears to be an > apologist for the State. We have no personal interest in Swami, we > assure his friends and well wishers. However it is entirely > reasonable and justified for anyone to issue public statements > against someone’s politics—and Swami’s politics is clearly Statist > and strangely unquestioning for an investigative journalist. It is no > crime to raise doubts about a certain kind of reportage which merely > parrots the investigators’ claims; surely Swami is not alone in > pushing the Home Ministry’s agenda, but he certainly is the > undisputed king of this. To fear that one’s writings would be > ‘challenged by those who don’t agree’ is intellectual dishonesty and > crass arrogance at the least. > > As for the Swami’s defence, we would like to submit the following: > > I > > Swami says that it’s no one’s business who the source of his story > is; fair enough, though he shouldn’t baulk when he is criticized for > consistent reliance on investigators and their dossiers alone. It is > the accuracy of information, he says, which should be the issue. Very > good! Except how do you measure the accuracy of statements such as > these? > > a) “Bored by the religious polemic, though, Bashar’s students > [alleged IM bombers] turned instead to Anurag Kashyap’s movie Black > Friday…” (“Islamism, Modernity and Indian Mujahideen”, March 32, > 2010, The Hindu) > > b) “Early in the summer of 2004, investigators say, the core > members of the network that was later to call itself the Indian > Mujahideen met at Bhatkal’s beachfront to discuss their plans. Iqbal > Shahbandri and Bhatkal-based cleric Shabbir Gangoli are alleged to > have held ideological classes; the group also took time out to > practice shooting with airguns. Bawa had overall charge of > arrangements — a task that illustrated his status as the Bhatkal > brothers’ most trusted lieutenant.” (The Rebirth of the Indian > Mujahideen”, 19th April 2010, The Hindu) > > One could provide a n endless list of such assertions that Swami > makes. The only source of this supposedly accurate information can be > chargesheets (which to repeat what we said in the last post, are only > chargesheets, not proven guilt) or custodial confessions. > > On the question of the new footage, why does the Pune Police continue > to be unimpressed with ATS’s naming of Bhatkal? Why do they say that > the ATS is after “usual suspects’? > > (see http://epaper.mailtoday.in/ > Details.aspxboxid=2310463&id=35313&issuedate=1242010) > > II > > On the Batla House ‘encounter’, Swami responds thus: > > The National Human Rights Commission studied the same evidence I did— > and more which was not available when I wrote. It says: “…swabs > which were taken from the right hands of Mohd Atif Ameen and Modh > Sajid by the doctors at the time of post mortem in AIIMS were sent in > sealed bottles to CFSL for dermal nitrate tests in the laboratory. > The same were found to contain gun shot residue. This conclusively > establishes that Mohd Atif Ameen and Mohd Sajid had both used fire > arms at the time of incident”. [5] Unless it believes that the NHRC > is an intelligence agency, the allegation made by the JTSA is untrue. > > > We have maintained and reiterate it even more strongly now, after > the publication of the post mortem reports, that the National Human > Rights Commission studied the evidence placed before it selectively, > and willfully ignored all contrary evidence. The only so-called > clinching evidence against the two slain boys is the presence of gun > shot residue on their right hands, which in NHRC’s words quoted by > Swami, “conclusively establishes that Atif and Sajid had both used > fire arms at the time of incident.” However the presence of Gun shot > residue (GSR) is hardly ‘conclusive’ evidence. For several years now, > forensic scientists have cautioned against the enthusiasm of > prosecutors to push for GSR as crucial evidence, for these reasons: > > 1) GSR is like a cloud of invisible particles, which can be > inadvertently shaken off by the shooter with the shake of a hand, > even a single swift movement or rubbing of hands etc. It easily > transfers to clothes or car seats etc. > > 2) It is entirely possible for non-shooters to be contaminated > by GSR. Police vehicles are particularly prone to GSR contamination > and non shooters can likely acquire GSR traveling in vehicles > ferrying shooters, or in which shooters have previously travelled. > Indeed, experiments conducted by forensic scientists have revealed > that even those non-shooters who entered a room a few minutes after > there had been firing acquired GSR. > > 3) Particles that are ostensibly peculiar to GSR can be produced > in ways other than fire shots, for example particles similar to GSR > can be found in brake linings. > > (Among others, see New Scientist, 23 November 2005, magazine issue > 2527/ http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg18825274.300-why-we- > cannot-rely-on-firearm-forensics.html?full=true) > > So really, GSR is hardly the kind of clinching evidence that the > NHRC, and following it, Swami would have us believe. Indeed, as the > post mortem reports clearly demonstrate, the two boys were shot from > a close range, making it that much easier for GSR to be deposited on > their on their bodies. > > Second, he responds to our charge of refusing to comment on the Batla > House ‘encounter’ in light of the post-mortem reports: > > "I didn’t. I still don’t. Having studied the available evidence, > the NHRC concluded: “In such circumstances, the action taken by the > police party in which Mohd. Atif Ameen and Mohd. Sajid received fatal > injuries and died is fully protected by law”. [6] Parenthetically, I > note that members of the Facebook group I believe the 2008 Batla > House encounter was FAKE insist that “not only the JTSA report, but > also NHRC (a statutory body of GOI) says that the encounter is fake”. > Either these people have not read the NHRC report—or are > lying." (from Swami's rejoinder to the JTSA text) > > At the cost of repeating ourselves, we would like to place the > following facts: > > The NHRC’s ‘available evidence’ consisted of the statements of senior > police officers: > > 1) R.R. Upadhayay, Additional Commissioner of Police, Vigilance; > 2) Satish Chandra, Special Commissioner of Police (Vigilance), Delhi; > 3) Neeraj Thakur, DCP (Crime & Rly.), Delhi; > 4) Karnail Singh, Joint Commissioner of Police, Special Cell, Delhi. > > These are the very same people who were being supposedly > investigated. Not a single neighbour from Batla House or family > member of the deceased was called for deposition to verify or cross > check the police version despite them having filed applications > wishing to testify before the Commission; the NHRC did not even > bother to visit the site of the ‘encounter’. Mr. Swami may not find > it of interest that the NHRC did not deem it necessary to investigate > the presence of non-firearm ante-mortem injuries; neither did it > exercise the NHRC that the two boys did not receive a single bullet > injury in the frontal region of their bodies—or that such evidence > does not square with the statements made by the senior police > officers’ descriptions of the sequence of events in their notes to > the NHRC. > > > III > On our raising of Swami’s linking of Bhatkal and IM to the Bangalore > stadium blasts, Swami says: > > "Leaving aside the minor irony here—the JTSA’s great faith in an > embarrassed BJP politician—there are two facts that need to be > recorded. In pursuit of the government’s “betting mafia” story, the > Karnataka Police arrested five Uttar Pradesh suspects. Those > suspects were cleared of any involvement in the attacks by the Uttar > Pradesh Police. [8] Second, I clearly identified that suspicions > directed at Mohammad Zarar Siddi Bawa, a.k.a. Yasin Bhatkal, were > based on what investigators were telling me. Similarity in bomb > design is quite evidently reasonable ground for suspicion—though it > is not of course proof. Since I have no independent expertise in > bomb forensics, the information was clearly attributed to > investigators. Its up to readers whether they want to believe them > or not." > > No body expects Swami to have independent expertise in bomb > forensics, but independent reporting certainly. There were other > journalists who were not buying the investigators’ story that the > presence of easily available samay clocks could be proof alone of the > omnipresent IM’s hand. > > “But as far as the suspects are concerned, it is turning out to be an > old game for the Karnataka police. They have zeroed in on Riyaz > Bhatkal and Bilal—who have been blamed for any terror attack on any > part of the state for the past four years. > The police do not have any evidence to link Bhatkal to the Bangalore > blasts. The only premise on which their argument is based is the > “similarity in planning the attacks”. Karnataka police's inability to > make a breakthrough in the case has drawn flak. > “It is highly intriguing that the police have not made any major > breakthrough. They are trying to find scapegoats and hence naming the > usual suspects," said Rakesh Para, a former intelligence officer of > the Karnataka police.” > > ( http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/Story/93651/India/IPL+betting > +mafia+behind+twin+blasts:+K'taka+HM.html ) > > There were also others who were willing to cite alternate theories: > > “Sources in Bangalore said the Indian Mujahideen is being linked to > the April 17 bomb episode outside the cricket stadium largely on > account of the presence of the clocks. “But as these clocks are > easily available all over the country it is not easy to corroborate > only on this basis or the usage of ammonium nitrate gel as the > explosive,” said the sources. > Karnataka DGP Ajai Kumar Singh said: ‘We are looking at the > similarities between these blasts and blasts in other parts of the > country. There are however a lot of dissimilarities between these > blasts and the July 25 serial blasts in Bangalore’.” > > ( http://www.indianexpress.com/news/clock-in-stadium-bombs-points-at- > im/609027/1 ) > > It is of course up to the readers to decide whether to believe the > investigators or not, but surely by obfuscating other view points, > Swami is telling his readers that the investigators information is > the sole authoritative version of affairs. > > On the link between SIMI and IM and terrorism, he further writes: > > "I’m a little uncertain here about precisely what the allegation is > here—but think the JTSA has some problem with my suggesting that SIMI > and the Indian Mujahideen are linked to terrorism. I’m in good > company, I think, in this belief. Javed Anand had a must-read > article on the issue some time back. Yoginder Sikand had some good > background earlier. If you’re willing to fork out a few bucks for > more detail, do read C. Christine Fair on the subject. This is just > a tiny part of a mass of literature—not including charge-sheets, > trial records and so on—on the subject. You don’t need access to the > Intelligence Services to access it—just a few hours in a good library" > > Yes indeed, we have a problem with Swami’s linking of SIMI and IM’s > connection with terrorism, but in particular with his linking of > these groups to the stadium blasts. And we are not in bad company > either. In August 2008, Justice Geeta Mittal, who headed the High > Court Tribunal on the ban on SIMI asked the Centre to produce any > “fresh material” to “connect” the organisation to “bomb blasts, > riots, destructive activities”. She said: “You say that SIMI is > connected to bomb blasts, riots, destructive activities. Place > specific material before me, you (Centre) cannot presume their > involvement.” JTSA finds SIMI’s ideology abhorrent, particularly its > views on women, but that does not mean that we are willing to let > them be hanged on charges of terror when there is no evidence to > prove it. > > Second, the IM’s links with SIMI are tenuous. The DGP of Gujarat, > P.C. Pande provided a semantic link between SIMI and IM: “You remove > S and I from ‘SIMI’ and you get IM, for Indian > Mujahideen.” (Ahmedabad, Aug 16 2008, IANS) Well, it could as easily > be argued that if you remove ‘B’ from IB and supplant it with ‘M’, > you get IM. > > The only proof of this shadowy organisation’s existence are the > dubious emails sent in the aftermath of the blasts claiming > responsibility, and the lengthy chargesheets filed by the various > police departments. > > We did not see any link between the life story about a supposed IM > operative and the stadium blast, neither did Swami provide any in his > rejoinder. As for trial records, Tehelka has done a series on SIMI > which can be cited and which prove Swami’s confident assertions > utterly wrong. These are also easily accessible on the Internet. > Moreover, none of the IM trials have even begun for Swami to cite. As > for forking out a few bucks for detail, don’t bother, because > Christine Fair approvingly cites among others, Praveen Swami himself! > Talk about friends in need, friends indeed! > > We cannot speak for either the Facebook Page I Believe the 2008 Batla > House Encounter was fake or the page, Shut up Praveen Swami as none > of us are members of either of the pages, but cannot help noticing > that the ‘Shut Up Praveen Swami’ page was hacked into and destroyed > on 28th April 2010. When its creator, re-started the page on the same > night, it was again hacked into on 30th April 2010. > > > PS: a member of the JTSA did indeed email the release to the Hindu on > this email id openpage at hindu.co.in on 27th April 2010. We would be > grateful to the editors of the Hindu were they to publish the entire > text of the exchange, including our rejoinder to Swami’s response. It > is a little unfair to ask us to circulate Swami’s email, as the Chief > of Bureau asks us to in the name of ‘fairness’, when they have a > newspaper and a weekly magazine at their disposal, which has always > given Swami a free run. > > > Released by the Jamia Teachers’ Solidarity Association > (www.teacherssolidarity.org) > > On 29-Apr-10, at 11:38 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From taraprakash at gmail.com Mon May 3 00:02:41 2010 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Sun, 2 May 2010 14:32:41 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Swami and Friends: JTSA Replies to Praveen Swami References: <0E084C69-7374-4127-8CF1-6A4DEB553AEB@sarai.net> Message-ID: <8D2C2BB00A92441A9F6CE88FC2982C26@tara> Well, it's interesting to know that Swami is a non-entity for JTSA (crass arrogance) and still he is being hounded for his politics. JTSA was formed for a worthy cause, but it's cause now seems to have become to go after Swami whenever they can. They will have to put there act together unless they are reduced to Swami hating organization. There have been several ocasions when newspapers, including Hindu, are challenged for their reporting or their editorials. Hindu has been often branded statist, communist, mouthpiece of CPI(m) {during Singur and Nandi Gram movements} and mouthpiece of Chinese government all the time. But I can't remember a time when a correspondent was singled out and maligned like this. I would understand if the demonizing was directed at the newspaper that gives him space to write his "imagination". I am no friend of Swami, but I will welcome his articles on this list for the principle of journalistic freedom, and not necessarily for Shuddha's trivial and trivializing rejoinder. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" To: "sarai list" Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2010 6:14 AM Subject: [Reader-list] Swami and Friends: JTSA Replies to Praveen Swami > Dear All, > > for those interested in the debate on the so called Batla House > Encounter and its reportage. This is the JTSA's response (sent out > today) to Praveen Swami's rejoinder to them, which was posted by > Aditya Raj Kaul on this list, some days ago. > > And, may I add, I do not believe that anyone should be prevented from > posting material by people like Praveen Swami on this list. I find it > always interesting to read his very imaginative prose. Naturally, > when we are offered material that comes from sources such as Praveen > Swami, it will be sooner or later, contested, especially as there is > a great deal to contest, and usually because it (Mr.Swami's writing) > is so imaginative. I see no trouble at all in some of us sharing on > this list the skills that we (and others) have acquired over our > years of acquaintance with Mr. Swami's prose style in being able to > see through his imagination, in order to reveal it for what it is. > > best > > Shuddha > _______________________________ > > > Jamia Teachers’ Solidarity Association > 1st May 2010 > Swami and Friends > > We are greatly surprised and also, one may add, a little amused at > this display of victimhood on the part of Praveen Swami and his > friends. It appears that we are to forget that Swami churns out one > column after another in a national daily, week after week, giving > detailed expositions of the guilt of those who are still awaiting > trials. Ms Annie Zaidi in her letter to the editor of > countercurrents, the website where our statement first appeared, > seems so exercised by our accusations against Mr. Swami, but it does > not concern her when her friend and ex-boss writes, to give just one > example, about Abu Bashar, a poor maulana from Azamgarh, as a > jihadist. (“Islamism, Modernity and Indian Mujahideen”, March 32, > 2010, The Hindu) Does she not realize that Bashar’s trial could be > vitiated and prejudiced by Swami’s public indictments? > > Our humble email campaign is being pitted as a grave injustice to > Swami’s journalistic integrity, but the inequality between JTSA and > the might of the Hindu group (and Swami’s clout within it) is > apparent to anyone not ‘blinded by faith’. We may add here that Swami > is an absolute non-entity for us. JTSA was formed in the aftermath of > the Batla House ‘encounter’; when a group of teachers at Jamia Millia > Islamia felt that the police story about the ‘encounter; was riddled > with holes, and we came together to campaign for truth and justice. > Our fight is against the State and its agencies, and the fact that it > refused any free and fair enquiry into the ‘encounter’ strengthens > our conviction that the State does not wish the truth to be revealed. > Our limited interest in Swami is only because he appears to be an > apologist for the State. We have no personal interest in Swami, we > assure his friends and well wishers. However it is entirely > reasonable and justified for anyone to issue public statements > against someone’s politics—and Swami’s politics is clearly Statist > and strangely unquestioning for an investigative journalist. It is no > crime to raise doubts about a certain kind of reportage which merely > parrots the investigators’ claims; surely Swami is not alone in > pushing the Home Ministry’s agenda, but he certainly is the > undisputed king of this. To fear that one’s writings would be > ‘challenged by those who don’t agree’ is intellectual dishonesty and > crass arrogance at the least. > > As for the Swami’s defence, we would like to submit the following: > > I > > Swami says that it’s no one’s business who the source of his story > is; fair enough, though he shouldn’t baulk when he is criticized for > consistent reliance on investigators and their dossiers alone. It is > the accuracy of information, he says, which should be the issue. Very > good! Except how do you measure the accuracy of statements such as > these? > > a) “Bored by the religious polemic, though, Bashar’s students > [alleged IM bombers] turned instead to Anurag Kashyap’s movie Black > Friday…” (“Islamism, Modernity and Indian Mujahideen”, March 32, > 2010, The Hindu) > > b) “Early in the summer of 2004, investigators say, the core > members of the network that was later to call itself the Indian > Mujahideen met at Bhatkal’s beachfront to discuss their plans. Iqbal > Shahbandri and Bhatkal-based cleric Shabbir Gangoli are alleged to > have held ideological classes; the group also took time out to > practice shooting with airguns. Bawa had overall charge of > arrangements — a task that illustrated his status as the Bhatkal > brothers’ most trusted lieutenant.” (The Rebirth of the Indian > Mujahideen”, 19th April 2010, The Hindu) > > One could provide a n endless list of such assertions that Swami > makes. The only source of this supposedly accurate information can be > chargesheets (which to repeat what we said in the last post, are only > chargesheets, not proven guilt) or custodial confessions. > > On the question of the new footage, why does the Pune Police continue > to be unimpressed with ATS’s naming of Bhatkal? Why do they say that > the ATS is after “usual suspects’? > > (see http://epaper.mailtoday.in/ > Details.aspxboxid=2310463&id=35313&issuedate=1242010) > > II > > On the Batla House ‘encounter’, Swami responds thus: > > The National Human Rights Commission studied the same evidence I did— > and more which was not available when I wrote. It says: “…swabs > which were taken from the right hands of Mohd Atif Ameen and Modh > Sajid by the doctors at the time of post mortem in AIIMS were sent in > sealed bottles to CFSL for dermal nitrate tests in the laboratory. > The same were found to contain gun shot residue. This conclusively > establishes that Mohd Atif Ameen and Mohd Sajid had both used fire > arms at the time of incident”. [5] Unless it believes that the NHRC > is an intelligence agency, the allegation made by the JTSA is untrue. > > > We have maintained and reiterate it even more strongly now, after > the publication of the post mortem reports, that the National Human > Rights Commission studied the evidence placed before it selectively, > and willfully ignored all contrary evidence. The only so-called > clinching evidence against the two slain boys is the presence of gun > shot residue on their right hands, which in NHRC’s words quoted by > Swami, “conclusively establishes that Atif and Sajid had both used > fire arms at the time of incident.” However the presence of Gun shot > residue (GSR) is hardly ‘conclusive’ evidence. For several years now, > forensic scientists have cautioned against the enthusiasm of > prosecutors to push for GSR as crucial evidence, for these reasons: > > 1) GSR is like a cloud of invisible particles, which can be > inadvertently shaken off by the shooter with the shake of a hand, > even a single swift movement or rubbing of hands etc. It easily > transfers to clothes or car seats etc. > > 2) It is entirely possible for non-shooters to be contaminated > by GSR. Police vehicles are particularly prone to GSR contamination > and non shooters can likely acquire GSR traveling in vehicles > ferrying shooters, or in which shooters have previously travelled. > Indeed, experiments conducted by forensic scientists have revealed > that even those non-shooters who entered a room a few minutes after > there had been firing acquired GSR. > > 3) Particles that are ostensibly peculiar to GSR can be produced > in ways other than fire shots, for example particles similar to GSR > can be found in brake linings. > > (Among others, see New Scientist, 23 November 2005, magazine issue > 2527/ http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg18825274.300-why-we- > cannot-rely-on-firearm-forensics.html?full=true) > > So really, GSR is hardly the kind of clinching evidence that the > NHRC, and following it, Swami would have us believe. Indeed, as the > post mortem reports clearly demonstrate, the two boys were shot from > a close range, making it that much easier for GSR to be deposited on > their on their bodies. > > Second, he responds to our charge of refusing to comment on the Batla > House ‘encounter’ in light of the post-mortem reports: > > "I didn’t. I still don’t. Having studied the available evidence, > the NHRC concluded: “In such circumstances, the action taken by the > police party in which Mohd. Atif Ameen and Mohd. Sajid received fatal > injuries and died is fully protected by law”. [6] Parenthetically, I > note that members of the Facebook group I believe the 2008 Batla > House encounter was FAKE insist that “not only the JTSA report, but > also NHRC (a statutory body of GOI) says that the encounter is fake”. > Either these people have not read the NHRC report—or are > lying." (from Swami's rejoinder to the JTSA text) > > At the cost of repeating ourselves, we would like to place the > following facts: > > The NHRC’s ‘available evidence’ consisted of the statements of senior > police officers: > > 1) R.R. Upadhayay, Additional Commissioner of Police, Vigilance; > 2) Satish Chandra, Special Commissioner of Police (Vigilance), Delhi; > 3) Neeraj Thakur, DCP (Crime & Rly.), Delhi; > 4) Karnail Singh, Joint Commissioner of Police, Special Cell, Delhi. > > These are the very same people who were being supposedly > investigated. Not a single neighbour from Batla House or family > member of the deceased was called for deposition to verify or cross > check the police version despite them having filed applications > wishing to testify before the Commission; the NHRC did not even > bother to visit the site of the ‘encounter’. Mr. Swami may not find > it of interest that the NHRC did not deem it necessary to investigate > the presence of non-firearm ante-mortem injuries; neither did it > exercise the NHRC that the two boys did not receive a single bullet > injury in the frontal region of their bodies—or that such evidence > does not square with the statements made by the senior police > officers’ descriptions of the sequence of events in their notes to > the NHRC. > > > III > On our raising of Swami’s linking of Bhatkal and IM to the Bangalore > stadium blasts, Swami says: > > "Leaving aside the minor irony here—the JTSA’s great faith in an > embarrassed BJP politician—there are two facts that need to be > recorded. In pursuit of the government’s “betting mafia” story, the > Karnataka Police arrested five Uttar Pradesh suspects. Those > suspects were cleared of any involvement in the attacks by the Uttar > Pradesh Police. [8] Second, I clearly identified that suspicions > directed at Mohammad Zarar Siddi Bawa, a.k.a. Yasin Bhatkal, were > based on what investigators were telling me. Similarity in bomb > design is quite evidently reasonable ground for suspicion—though it > is not of course proof. Since I have no independent expertise in > bomb forensics, the information was clearly attributed to > investigators. Its up to readers whether they want to believe them > or not." > > No body expects Swami to have independent expertise in bomb > forensics, but independent reporting certainly. There were other > journalists who were not buying the investigators’ story that the > presence of easily available samay clocks could be proof alone of the > omnipresent IM’s hand. > > “But as far as the suspects are concerned, it is turning out to be an > old game for the Karnataka police. They have zeroed in on Riyaz > Bhatkal and Bilal—who have been blamed for any terror attack on any > part of the state for the past four years. > The police do not have any evidence to link Bhatkal to the Bangalore > blasts. The only premise on which their argument is based is the > “similarity in planning the attacks”. Karnataka police's inability to > make a breakthrough in the case has drawn flak. > “It is highly intriguing that the police have not made any major > breakthrough. They are trying to find scapegoats and hence naming the > usual suspects," said Rakesh Para, a former intelligence officer of > the Karnataka police.” > > ( http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/Story/93651/India/IPL+betting > +mafia+behind+twin+blasts:+K'taka+HM.html ) > > There were also others who were willing to cite alternate theories: > > “Sources in Bangalore said the Indian Mujahideen is being linked to > the April 17 bomb episode outside the cricket stadium largely on > account of the presence of the clocks. “But as these clocks are > easily available all over the country it is not easy to corroborate > only on this basis or the usage of ammonium nitrate gel as the > explosive,” said the sources. > Karnataka DGP Ajai Kumar Singh said: ‘We are looking at the > similarities between these blasts and blasts in other parts of the > country. There are however a lot of dissimilarities between these > blasts and the July 25 serial blasts in Bangalore’.” > > ( http://www.indianexpress.com/news/clock-in-stadium-bombs-points-at- > im/609027/1 ) > > It is of course up to the readers to decide whether to believe the > investigators or not, but surely by obfuscating other view points, > Swami is telling his readers that the investigators information is > the sole authoritative version of affairs. > > On the link between SIMI and IM and terrorism, he further writes: > > "I’m a little uncertain here about precisely what the allegation is > here—but think the JTSA has some problem with my suggesting that SIMI > and the Indian Mujahideen are linked to terrorism. I’m in good > company, I think, in this belief. Javed Anand had a must-read > article on the issue some time back. Yoginder Sikand had some good > background earlier. If you’re willing to fork out a few bucks for > more detail, do read C. Christine Fair on the subject. This is just > a tiny part of a mass of literature—not including charge-sheets, > trial records and so on—on the subject. You don’t need access to the > Intelligence Services to access it—just a few hours in a good library" > > Yes indeed, we have a problem with Swami’s linking of SIMI and IM’s > connection with terrorism, but in particular with his linking of > these groups to the stadium blasts. And we are not in bad company > either. In August 2008, Justice Geeta Mittal, who headed the High > Court Tribunal on the ban on SIMI asked the Centre to produce any > “fresh material” to “connect” the organisation to “bomb blasts, > riots, destructive activities”. She said: “You say that SIMI is > connected to bomb blasts, riots, destructive activities. Place > specific material before me, you (Centre) cannot presume their > involvement.” JTSA finds SIMI’s ideology abhorrent, particularly its > views on women, but that does not mean that we are willing to let > them be hanged on charges of terror when there is no evidence to > prove it. > > Second, the IM’s links with SIMI are tenuous. The DGP of Gujarat, > P.C. Pande provided a semantic link between SIMI and IM: “You remove > S and I from ‘SIMI’ and you get IM, for Indian > Mujahideen.” (Ahmedabad, Aug 16 2008, IANS) Well, it could as easily > be argued that if you remove ‘B’ from IB and supplant it with ‘M’, > you get IM. > > The only proof of this shadowy organisation’s existence are the > dubious emails sent in the aftermath of the blasts claiming > responsibility, and the lengthy chargesheets filed by the various > police departments. > > We did not see any link between the life story about a supposed IM > operative and the stadium blast, neither did Swami provide any in his > rejoinder. As for trial records, Tehelka has done a series on SIMI > which can be cited and which prove Swami’s confident assertions > utterly wrong. These are also easily accessible on the Internet. > Moreover, none of the IM trials have even begun for Swami to cite. As > for forking out a few bucks for detail, don’t bother, because > Christine Fair approvingly cites among others, Praveen Swami himself! > Talk about friends in need, friends indeed! > > We cannot speak for either the Facebook Page I Believe the 2008 Batla > House Encounter was fake or the page, Shut up Praveen Swami as none > of us are members of either of the pages, but cannot help noticing > that the ‘Shut Up Praveen Swami’ page was hacked into and destroyed > on 28th April 2010. When its creator, re-started the page on the same > night, it was again hacked into on 30th April 2010. > > > PS: a member of the JTSA did indeed email the release to the Hindu on > this email id openpage at hindu.co.in on 27th April 2010. We would be > grateful to the editors of the Hindu were they to publish the entire > text of the exchange, including our rejoinder to Swami’s response. It > is a little unfair to ask us to circulate Swami’s email, as the Chief > of Bureau asks us to in the name of ‘fairness’, when they have a > newspaper and a weekly magazine at their disposal, which has always > given Swami a free run. > > > Released by the Jamia Teachers’ Solidarity Association > (www.teacherssolidarity.org) > > On 29-Apr-10, at 11:38 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Mon May 3 00:26:28 2010 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 00:26:28 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Swami and Friends: JTSA Replies to Praveen Swami In-Reply-To: <8D2C2BB00A92441A9F6CE88FC2982C26@tara> References: <0E084C69-7374-4127-8CF1-6A4DEB553AEB@sarai.net> <8D2C2BB00A92441A9F6CE88FC2982C26@tara> Message-ID: My belief: I will only add to this one thing. Praveen Swami was going reports after reports of Muslims being involved in the Mecca Masjid blasts. After the investigations and proceedings in the court, not a single one of those convicted (against whom Praveen Swami was castigating in his articles). What more should I add? People like him are glorifying police investigations when we ourselves hardly believe the police in general. Then why should I believe him? Rakesh On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 12:02 AM, TaraPrakash wrote: > Well, it's interesting to know that Swami is a non-entity for JTSA (crass > arrogance) and still he is being hounded for his politics. JTSA was formed > for a worthy cause, but it's cause now seems to have become to go after > Swami whenever they can. They will have to put there act together unless > they are reduced to Swami hating organization. There have been several > ocasions when newspapers, including Hindu, are challenged for their > reporting or their editorials. Hindu has been often branded statist, > communist, mouthpiece of CPI(m) {during Singur and Nandi Gram movements} > and > mouthpiece of Chinese government all the time. But I can't remember a time > when a correspondent was singled out and maligned like this. > > I would understand if the demonizing was directed at the newspaper that > gives him space to write his "imagination". I am no friend of Swami, but I > will welcome his articles on this list for the principle of journalistic > freedom, and not necessarily for Shuddha's trivial and trivializing > rejoinder. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" > To: "sarai list" > Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2010 6:14 AM > Subject: [Reader-list] Swami and Friends: JTSA Replies to Praveen Swami > > > > Dear All, > > > > for those interested in the debate on the so called Batla House > > Encounter and its reportage. This is the JTSA's response (sent out > > today) to Praveen Swami's rejoinder to them, which was posted by > > Aditya Raj Kaul on this list, some days ago. > > > > And, may I add, I do not believe that anyone should be prevented from > > posting material by people like Praveen Swami on this list. I find it > > always interesting to read his very imaginative prose. Naturally, > > when we are offered material that comes from sources such as Praveen > > Swami, it will be sooner or later, contested, especially as there is > > a great deal to contest, and usually because it (Mr.Swami's writing) > > is so imaginative. I see no trouble at all in some of us sharing on > > this list the skills that we (and others) have acquired over our > > years of acquaintance with Mr. Swami's prose style in being able to > > see through his imagination, in order to reveal it for what it is. > > > > best > > > > Shuddha > > _______________________________ > > > > > > Jamia Teachers’ Solidarity Association > > 1st May 2010 > > Swami and Friends > > > > We are greatly surprised and also, one may add, a little amused at > > this display of victimhood on the part of Praveen Swami and his > > friends. It appears that we are to forget that Swami churns out one > > column after another in a national daily, week after week, giving > > detailed expositions of the guilt of those who are still awaiting > > trials. Ms Annie Zaidi in her letter to the editor of > > countercurrents, the website where our statement first appeared, > > seems so exercised by our accusations against Mr. Swami, but it does > > not concern her when her friend and ex-boss writes, to give just one > > example, about Abu Bashar, a poor maulana from Azamgarh, as a > > jihadist. (“Islamism, Modernity and Indian Mujahideen”, March 32, > > 2010, The Hindu) Does she not realize that Bashar’s trial could be > > vitiated and prejudiced by Swami’s public indictments? > > > > Our humble email campaign is being pitted as a grave injustice to > > Swami’s journalistic integrity, but the inequality between JTSA and > > the might of the Hindu group (and Swami’s clout within it) is > > apparent to anyone not ‘blinded by faith’. We may add here that Swami > > is an absolute non-entity for us. JTSA was formed in the aftermath of > > the Batla House ‘encounter’; when a group of teachers at Jamia Millia > > Islamia felt that the police story about the ‘encounter; was riddled > > with holes, and we came together to campaign for truth and justice. > > Our fight is against the State and its agencies, and the fact that it > > refused any free and fair enquiry into the ‘encounter’ strengthens > > our conviction that the State does not wish the truth to be revealed. > > Our limited interest in Swami is only because he appears to be an > > apologist for the State. We have no personal interest in Swami, we > > assure his friends and well wishers. However it is entirely > > reasonable and justified for anyone to issue public statements > > against someone’s politics—and Swami’s politics is clearly Statist > > and strangely unquestioning for an investigative journalist. It is no > > crime to raise doubts about a certain kind of reportage which merely > > parrots the investigators’ claims; surely Swami is not alone in > > pushing the Home Ministry’s agenda, but he certainly is the > > undisputed king of this. To fear that one’s writings would be > > ‘challenged by those who don’t agree’ is intellectual dishonesty and > > crass arrogance at the least. > > > > As for the Swami’s defence, we would like to submit the following: > > > > I > > > > Swami says that it’s no one’s business who the source of his story > > is; fair enough, though he shouldn’t baulk when he is criticized for > > consistent reliance on investigators and their dossiers alone. It is > > the accuracy of information, he says, which should be the issue. Very > > good! Except how do you measure the accuracy of statements such as > > these? > > > > a) “Bored by the religious polemic, though, Bashar’s students > > [alleged IM bombers] turned instead to Anurag Kashyap’s movie Black > > Friday…” (“Islamism, Modernity and Indian Mujahideen”, March 32, > > 2010, The Hindu) > > > > b) “Early in the summer of 2004, investigators say, the core > > members of the network that was later to call itself the Indian > > Mujahideen met at Bhatkal’s beachfront to discuss their plans. Iqbal > > Shahbandri and Bhatkal-based cleric Shabbir Gangoli are alleged to > > have held ideological classes; the group also took time out to > > practice shooting with airguns. Bawa had overall charge of > > arrangements — a task that illustrated his status as the Bhatkal > > brothers’ most trusted lieutenant.” (The Rebirth of the Indian > > Mujahideen”, 19th April 2010, The Hindu) > > > > One could provide a n endless list of such assertions that Swami > > makes. The only source of this supposedly accurate information can be > > chargesheets (which to repeat what we said in the last post, are only > > chargesheets, not proven guilt) or custodial confessions. > > > > On the question of the new footage, why does the Pune Police continue > > to be unimpressed with ATS’s naming of Bhatkal? Why do they say that > > the ATS is after “usual suspects’? > > > > (see http://epaper.mailtoday.in/ > > Details.aspxboxid=2310463&id=35313&issuedate=1242010) > > > > II > > > > On the Batla House ‘encounter’, Swami responds thus: > > > > The National Human Rights Commission studied the same evidence I did— > > and more which was not available when I wrote. It says: “…swabs > > which were taken from the right hands of Mohd Atif Ameen and Modh > > Sajid by the doctors at the time of post mortem in AIIMS were sent in > > sealed bottles to CFSL for dermal nitrate tests in the laboratory. > > The same were found to contain gun shot residue. This conclusively > > establishes that Mohd Atif Ameen and Mohd Sajid had both used fire > > arms at the time of incident”. [5] Unless it believes that the NHRC > > is an intelligence agency, the allegation made by the JTSA is untrue. > > > > > > We have maintained and reiterate it even more strongly now, after > > the publication of the post mortem reports, that the National Human > > Rights Commission studied the evidence placed before it selectively, > > and willfully ignored all contrary evidence. The only so-called > > clinching evidence against the two slain boys is the presence of gun > > shot residue on their right hands, which in NHRC’s words quoted by > > Swami, “conclusively establishes that Atif and Sajid had both used > > fire arms at the time of incident.” However the presence of Gun shot > > residue (GSR) is hardly ‘conclusive’ evidence. For several years now, > > forensic scientists have cautioned against the enthusiasm of > > prosecutors to push for GSR as crucial evidence, for these reasons: > > > > 1) GSR is like a cloud of invisible particles, which can be > > inadvertently shaken off by the shooter with the shake of a hand, > > even a single swift movement or rubbing of hands etc. It easily > > transfers to clothes or car seats etc. > > > > 2) It is entirely possible for non-shooters to be contaminated > > by GSR. Police vehicles are particularly prone to GSR contamination > > and non shooters can likely acquire GSR traveling in vehicles > > ferrying shooters, or in which shooters have previously travelled. > > Indeed, experiments conducted by forensic scientists have revealed > > that even those non-shooters who entered a room a few minutes after > > there had been firing acquired GSR. > > > > 3) Particles that are ostensibly peculiar to GSR can be produced > > in ways other than fire shots, for example particles similar to GSR > > can be found in brake linings. > > > > (Among others, see New Scientist, 23 November 2005, magazine issue > > 2527/ http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg18825274.300-why-we- > > cannot-rely-on-firearm-forensics.html?full=true) > > > > So really, GSR is hardly the kind of clinching evidence that the > > NHRC, and following it, Swami would have us believe. Indeed, as the > > post mortem reports clearly demonstrate, the two boys were shot from > > a close range, making it that much easier for GSR to be deposited on > > their on their bodies. > > > > Second, he responds to our charge of refusing to comment on the Batla > > House ‘encounter’ in light of the post-mortem reports: > > > > "I didn’t. I still don’t. Having studied the available evidence, > > the NHRC concluded: “In such circumstances, the action taken by the > > police party in which Mohd. Atif Ameen and Mohd. Sajid received fatal > > injuries and died is fully protected by law”. [6] Parenthetically, I > > note that members of the Facebook group I believe the 2008 Batla > > House encounter was FAKE insist that “not only the JTSA report, but > > also NHRC (a statutory body of GOI) says that the encounter is fake”. > > Either these people have not read the NHRC report—or are > > lying." (from Swami's rejoinder to the JTSA text) > > > > At the cost of repeating ourselves, we would like to place the > > following facts: > > > > The NHRC’s ‘available evidence’ consisted of the statements of senior > > police officers: > > > > 1) R.R. Upadhayay, Additional Commissioner of Police, Vigilance; > > 2) Satish Chandra, Special Commissioner of Police (Vigilance), Delhi; > > 3) Neeraj Thakur, DCP (Crime & Rly.), Delhi; > > 4) Karnail Singh, Joint Commissioner of Police, Special Cell, Delhi. > > > > These are the very same people who were being supposedly > > investigated. Not a single neighbour from Batla House or family > > member of the deceased was called for deposition to verify or cross > > check the police version despite them having filed applications > > wishing to testify before the Commission; the NHRC did not even > > bother to visit the site of the ‘encounter’. Mr. Swami may not find > > it of interest that the NHRC did not deem it necessary to investigate > > the presence of non-firearm ante-mortem injuries; neither did it > > exercise the NHRC that the two boys did not receive a single bullet > > injury in the frontal region of their bodies—or that such evidence > > does not square with the statements made by the senior police > > officers’ descriptions of the sequence of events in their notes to > > the NHRC. > > > > > > III > > On our raising of Swami’s linking of Bhatkal and IM to the Bangalore > > stadium blasts, Swami says: > > > > "Leaving aside the minor irony here—the JTSA’s great faith in an > > embarrassed BJP politician—there are two facts that need to be > > recorded. In pursuit of the government’s “betting mafia” story, the > > Karnataka Police arrested five Uttar Pradesh suspects. Those > > suspects were cleared of any involvement in the attacks by the Uttar > > Pradesh Police. [8] Second, I clearly identified that suspicions > > directed at Mohammad Zarar Siddi Bawa, a.k.a. Yasin Bhatkal, were > > based on what investigators were telling me. Similarity in bomb > > design is quite evidently reasonable ground for suspicion—though it > > is not of course proof. Since I have no independent expertise in > > bomb forensics, the information was clearly attributed to > > investigators. Its up to readers whether they want to believe them > > or not." > > > > No body expects Swami to have independent expertise in bomb > > forensics, but independent reporting certainly. There were other > > journalists who were not buying the investigators’ story that the > > presence of easily available samay clocks could be proof alone of the > > omnipresent IM’s hand. > > > > “But as far as the suspects are concerned, it is turning out to be an > > old game for the Karnataka police. They have zeroed in on Riyaz > > Bhatkal and Bilal—who have been blamed for any terror attack on any > > part of the state for the past four years. > > The police do not have any evidence to link Bhatkal to the Bangalore > > blasts. The only premise on which their argument is based is the > > “similarity in planning the attacks”. Karnataka police's inability to > > make a breakthrough in the case has drawn flak. > > “It is highly intriguing that the police have not made any major > > breakthrough. They are trying to find scapegoats and hence naming the > > usual suspects," said Rakesh Para, a former intelligence officer of > > the Karnataka police.” > > > > ( http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/Story/93651/India/IPL+betting > > +mafia+behind+twin+blasts:+K'taka+HM.html ) > > > > There were also others who were willing to cite alternate theories: > > > > “Sources in Bangalore said the Indian Mujahideen is being linked to > > the April 17 bomb episode outside the cricket stadium largely on > > account of the presence of the clocks. “But as these clocks are > > easily available all over the country it is not easy to corroborate > > only on this basis or the usage of ammonium nitrate gel as the > > explosive,” said the sources. > > Karnataka DGP Ajai Kumar Singh said: ‘We are looking at the > > similarities between these blasts and blasts in other parts of the > > country. There are however a lot of dissimilarities between these > > blasts and the July 25 serial blasts in Bangalore’.” > > > > ( http://www.indianexpress.com/news/clock-in-stadium-bombs-points-at- > > im/609027/1 ) > > > > It is of course up to the readers to decide whether to believe the > > investigators or not, but surely by obfuscating other view points, > > Swami is telling his readers that the investigators information is > > the sole authoritative version of affairs. > > > > On the link between SIMI and IM and terrorism, he further writes: > > > > "I’m a little uncertain here about precisely what the allegation is > > here—but think the JTSA has some problem with my suggesting that SIMI > > and the Indian Mujahideen are linked to terrorism. I’m in good > > company, I think, in this belief. Javed Anand had a must-read > > article on the issue some time back. Yoginder Sikand had some good > > background earlier. If you’re willing to fork out a few bucks for > > more detail, do read C. Christine Fair on the subject. This is just > > a tiny part of a mass of literature—not including charge-sheets, > > trial records and so on—on the subject. You don’t need access to the > > Intelligence Services to access it—just a few hours in a good library" > > > > Yes indeed, we have a problem with Swami’s linking of SIMI and IM’s > > connection with terrorism, but in particular with his linking of > > these groups to the stadium blasts. And we are not in bad company > > either. In August 2008, Justice Geeta Mittal, who headed the High > > Court Tribunal on the ban on SIMI asked the Centre to produce any > > “fresh material” to “connect” the organisation to “bomb blasts, > > riots, destructive activities”. She said: “You say that SIMI is > > connected to bomb blasts, riots, destructive activities. Place > > specific material before me, you (Centre) cannot presume their > > involvement.” JTSA finds SIMI’s ideology abhorrent, particularly its > > views on women, but that does not mean that we are willing to let > > them be hanged on charges of terror when there is no evidence to > > prove it. > > > > Second, the IM’s links with SIMI are tenuous. The DGP of Gujarat, > > P.C. Pande provided a semantic link between SIMI and IM: “You remove > > S and I from ‘SIMI’ and you get IM, for Indian > > Mujahideen.” (Ahmedabad, Aug 16 2008, IANS) Well, it could as easily > > be argued that if you remove ‘B’ from IB and supplant it with ‘M’, > > you get IM. > > > > The only proof of this shadowy organisation’s existence are the > > dubious emails sent in the aftermath of the blasts claiming > > responsibility, and the lengthy chargesheets filed by the various > > police departments. > > > > We did not see any link between the life story about a supposed IM > > operative and the stadium blast, neither did Swami provide any in his > > rejoinder. As for trial records, Tehelka has done a series on SIMI > > which can be cited and which prove Swami’s confident assertions > > utterly wrong. These are also easily accessible on the Internet. > > Moreover, none of the IM trials have even begun for Swami to cite. As > > for forking out a few bucks for detail, don’t bother, because > > Christine Fair approvingly cites among others, Praveen Swami himself! > > Talk about friends in need, friends indeed! > > > > We cannot speak for either the Facebook Page I Believe the 2008 Batla > > House Encounter was fake or the page, Shut up Praveen Swami as none > > of us are members of either of the pages, but cannot help noticing > > that the ‘Shut Up Praveen Swami’ page was hacked into and destroyed > > on 28th April 2010. When its creator, re-started the page on the same > > night, it was again hacked into on 30th April 2010. > > > > > > PS: a member of the JTSA did indeed email the release to the Hindu on > > this email id openpage at hindu.co.in on 27th April 2010. We would be > > grateful to the editors of the Hindu were they to publish the entire > > text of the exchange, including our rejoinder to Swami’s response. It > > is a little unfair to ask us to circulate Swami’s email, as the Chief > > of Bureau asks us to in the name of ‘fairness’, when they have a > > newspaper and a weekly magazine at their disposal, which has always > > given Swami a free run. > > > > > > Released by the Jamia Teachers’ Solidarity Association > > (www.teacherssolidarity.org) > > > > On 29-Apr-10, at 11:38 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > > > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > > Raqs Media Collective > > shuddha at sarai.net > > www.sarai.net > > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From aliens at dataone.in Mon May 3 12:12:07 2010 From: aliens at dataone.in (Bipin Trivedi) Date: Mon, 03 May 2010 12:12:07 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT Message-ID: <000601caea8b$c3560a30$4a021e90$@in> TODAY IS THE DAY OF AJMAL KASAV VERDICT. What do you think, what should be the punishment for him? From jeebesh at sarai.net Mon May 3 12:26:03 2010 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 12:26:03 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT In-Reply-To: <000601caea8b$c3560a30$4a021e90$@in> References: <000601caea8b$c3560a30$4a021e90$@in> Message-ID: <271D5B27-099A-4790-BE1F-0B8727053D14@sarai.net> On 03-May-10, at 12:12 PM, Bipin Trivedi wrote: > > What do you think, what should be the punishment for him? Community service with people who were affected by his actions. In Do Aankhen Barah Haath (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Do_Aankhen_Barah_Haath ) V. Santaram tried to think this in the 50s. This could be thought again. No? From aliens at dataone.in Mon May 3 12:37:22 2010 From: aliens at dataone.in (Bipin Trivedi) Date: Mon, 03 May 2010 12:37:22 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT In-Reply-To: <271D5B27-099A-4790-BE1F-0B8727053D14@sarai.net> References: <000601caea8b$c3560a30$4a021e90$@in> <271D5B27-099A-4790-BE1F-0B8727053D14@sarai.net> Message-ID: <000001caea8f$47bd1f40$d7375dc0$@in> ??? -----Original Message----- From: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net [mailto:reader-list-bounces at sarai.net] On Behalf Of Jeebesh Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 12:26 PM To: Sarai Reader-list Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT On 03-May-10, at 12:12 PM, Bipin Trivedi wrote: > > What do you think, what should be the punishment for him? Community service with people who were affected by his actions. In Do Aankhen Barah Haath (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Do_Aankhen_Barah_Haath ) V. Santaram tried to think this in the 50s. This could be thought again. No? _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From shuddha at sarai.net Mon May 3 12:14:25 2010 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 12:14:25 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT In-Reply-To: <000601caea8b$c3560a30$4a021e90$@in> References: <000601caea8b$c3560a30$4a021e90$@in> Message-ID: <728CF378-2EB8-418C-88AB-B2E137F79AB2@sarai.net> if he is found guilty, then life imprisonment, based on the quantum of his crimes. I remain opposed to the awarding of capital punishment under any circumstances. On 03-May-10, at 12:12 PM, Bipin Trivedi wrote: > TODAY IS THE DAY OF AJMAL KASAV VERDICT. > > > > What do you think, what should be the punishment for him? > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From yasir.media at gmail.com Mon May 3 13:53:25 2010 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?eWFzaXIgftmK2Kcg2LPYsQ==?=) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 13:23:25 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] 140,000 troops in FATA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: one needs to add much salt here: - reporters are not allowed, you only get the official army version - civilian casualties are 'normal', very high and not reported, including extra judicial killings and right violations - the number of internally displaced people is huge, frequently not taken care of by anyone let alone by govt - the motivation in no small measure comes from the US pressuring the PK army to show that action is being taken, which frequently leads to unstable conditions, rather than working with local actors with a long term view, while dealing with a guerrilla like militancy. On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 11:30 AM, S. Jabbar wrote: > > FRONT-PAGE > ŒPakistan has moved 100,000 troops from eastern border¹ > > By Our Correspondent > > Friday, 30 Apr, 2010 | 01:38 AM PST | > > > WASHINGTON: Pakistan has deployed 140,000 troops in Fata, moving at least > 100,000 soldiers from the Indian border to back up its Œunprecedented¹ > crackdown on militants along the Afghan border, says a Pentagon report. > > In its mandatory report to the US Congress on the situation in the > Pakistan-Afghan region, the Pentagon notes that the deployment is the > biggest in the country¹s history on the western border. > > ³This unprecedented deployment and thinning of the lines against India > indicates that Islamabad has acknowledged its domestic insurgent threat.² > > The Pentagon also acknowledges that Pakistani military operations in the > tribal regions have had an impact across the border, placing a ³high degree > of pressure on enemy forces and reduced insurgent safe haven² in eastern > Afghanistan. > > The Pentagon informs Congress that recent arrests by Pakistan of Afghan > Taliban leaders, including the group¹s No. 2, Mullah Abdul Ghani Baradar, > have ³increased insurgent leaders¹ concern over the security of their safe > havens² and created ³financial and logistical² problems for them. > > This assessment contrasts sharply with the Afghan claim ‹ backed by India ‹ > that the arrests have weakened Kabul¹s efforts to seek a negotiated > settlement with the Taliban leadership. > > The report quotes a senior US defence official as saying that the arrests > in > Pakistan produced ³a lot of concerned chatter² among Taliban sympathisers > in > Afghanistan, but there¹s no indication of ³a leadership crisis in the > Taliban². > > The Pentagon notes that so far the crackdown in Pakistan is focused almost > exclusively on internal threats and that¹s why it¹s not having any > ³significant impact on the Afghan insurgency in the short term². > > But the crackdown ³offers opportunities in coming months to have a greater > impact on the conflict in Afghanistan depending on how PAKMIL (Pakistani > military) operations evolve,² the report adds. > > ³Pakistan has suffered attacks from terrorists in response to its > successful > operations. These attacks include mass casualty events in Mingora, South > Waziristan agency close to clearing operations as well as in Lahore, far > away from the fighting. ³While these attacks do not appear to have shaken > Pakistan¹s commitment, they do demonstrate, for the time being, insurgent > ability to continue attacks despite successful Pakistani operations,² the > report warns. > > > http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/ > > front-page/pakistan-has-moved-100,000-troops-from-indian-border-pentagon-040 > > Copyright © 2010 - Dawn Media Group > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From cubbykabi at yahoo.com Mon May 3 13:58:30 2010 From: cubbykabi at yahoo.com (kabi cubby sherman) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 13:58:30 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Justice for Professor Siras- Sign the petition and pass it on Message-ID: <117832.94589.qm@web94708.mail.in2.yahoo.com> ----- Forwarded Message ---- From: ponni arasu To: voicesagainst377 at googlegroups.com; lgbt-india at yahoogroups.com; movenpick at yahoogroups.com; queer-womyn-bangalore at googlegroups.com; queerrights-kerala at googlegroups.com; feministsindia at yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, 3 May, 2010 1:47:40 PM Subject: [feministsindia] Justice for Professor Siras- Sign the petition and pass it on here is the link to the petition: http://www.petition online.com/ siras30d/ petition. html __._,_.___ Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post | Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (1) Recent Activity: * New Members 1 Visit Your Group To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/feministsindia/ To change settings online go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/feministsindia/join (Yahoo!ID required) To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: feministsindia-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use . __,_._,___ From gautam.bhan at gmail.com Mon May 3 14:08:21 2010 From: gautam.bhan at gmail.com (Gautam Bhan) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 14:08:21 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Justice for Professor Siras- Sign the petition and pass it on In-Reply-To: <117832.94589.qm@web94708.mail.in2.yahoo.com> References: <117832.94589.qm@web94708.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: All, some pasting issues that make this link not work. Proper link: http://www.petitiononline.com/siras30d/petition.html best, Gautam On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 1:58 PM, kabi cubby sherman wrote: > ----- Forwarded Message ---- > > From: ponni arasu > To: voicesagainst377 at googlegroups.com; lgbt-india at yahoogroups.com; > movenpick at yahoogroups.com; queer-womyn-bangalore at googlegroups.com; > queerrights-kerala at googlegroups.com; feministsindia at yahoogroups.com > Sent: Mon, 3 May, 2010 1:47:40 PM > Subject: [feministsindia] Justice for Professor Siras- Sign the petition > and pass it on > > > here is the link to the petition: > http://www.petition online.com/ siras30d/ petition. html > > > > > __._,_.___ > Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post | Start a New Topic > Messages in this topic (1) > Recent Activity: * New Members 1 > Visit Your Group > To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/feministsindia/ > > To change settings online go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/feministsindia/join (Yahoo!ID required) > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > feministsindia-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > > > > Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use > . > > __,_._,___ > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- ___________ I write at: www.kafila.org. From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Mon May 3 14:40:54 2010 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 02:10:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Modelling, acting un-Islamic: Deoband Message-ID: <913111.42591.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Press Trust Of India Muzaffarnagar, May 02, 2010   Modelling, acting un-Islamic: Deoband   What is the religious sanction behind a fatwa and how does the fatwa-issuing cleric ensure that the ruling is enforced?   This is the question that arose when the country's oldest Islamic seminary Darul Uloom Deoband recently issued a fatwa (religious edict) decrying modelling and acting by women as "un-Islamic" and a "serious offence" under Shariat Law.   "Veil is an important principal of religion. Unveil is illegal under Shariat Law. But modelling and acting in movies is a serious offence under Islamic law since women who model or act in movies not only remove the veil but also make an exhibition of their bodies," Deputy Vice chancellor of Deoband, Maulana Abdul Khaligue Madrasi told PTI here.   He said Muftis were justified to issue a fatwa against modelling in the light of the Islamic law, "But what is the sanctity of a fatwa if people do not follow its directives?" Madrasi was asked, in the context of an earlier fatwa which had advised tennis star Sania Mirza not to wear shorts or revealing tennis skirts.   However, on persistent questioning, he clarified that "Fatwa is not mandatory. Fatwas are not meant to be a general pronouncement. Madrasi clarified that a fatwa issued by the Darul Uloom is not in conflict with the law of land while orders of Khap panchayats in India and Jirgas in Afghanistan and parts of Pakistan are implemented by force."   "A Mufti issues a fatwa only if someone comes to him for guidance. Fatwa is not an order but a guidance of principal and even the person seeking guidance has the option to follow it or not", Madrasi said.   This is the first time in recent memory that a senior cleric has clarified that a fatwa can be followed or ignored. But, Mumbai film celebrities disagreed with the Deoband cleric's view that modelling and acting in films was unislamic.   When contacted, noted lyricist Javed Akhtar said, "There is nothing unislamic in it. I do not know why it has become an issue". Actor and model Zulfi Syed was of the opinion, "Islam is a modern religion and does not bar acting or modelling. I feel people who do not have knowledge of it make a hue and cry for no good reasons."   His views were also endorsed by actor Shahwar Ali saying "No religion bars acting or modelling. Like other professions this also requires hard work. I do not understand what is the need to issue fatwa against it."   http://www.hindustantimes.com/Modelling-acting-un-Islamic-Deoband/H1-Article1-538475.aspx     From jeebesh at sarai.net Mon May 3 15:02:15 2010 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 15:02:15 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Modelling, acting un-Islamic: Deoband In-Reply-To: <913111.42591.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <913111.42591.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: dear Kshmendra, Are you the Deoband publicity manager :) warmly jeebesh On 03-May-10, at 2:40 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Press Trust Of India > > Muzaffarnagar, May 02, 2010 > > Modelling, acting un-Islamic: Deoband > > > What is the religious sanction behind a fatwa and how does the fatwa- > issuing cleric ensure that the ruling is enforced? > > This is the question that arose when the country's oldest Islamic > seminary Darul Uloom Deoband recently issued a fatwa (religious > edict) decrying modelling and acting by women as "un-Islamic" and a > "serious offence" under Shariat Law. > > "Veil is an important principal of religion. Unveil is illegal under > Shariat Law. But modelling and acting in movies is a serious offence > under Islamic law since women who model or act in movies not only > remove the veil but also make an exhibition of their bodies," Deputy > Vice chancellor of Deoband, Maulana Abdul Khaligue Madrasi told PTI > here. > > He said Muftis were justified to issue a fatwa against modelling in > the light of the Islamic law, "But what is the sanctity of a fatwa > if people do not follow its directives?" Madrasi was asked, in the > context of an earlier fatwa which had advised tennis star Sania > Mirza not to wear shorts or revealing tennis skirts. > > However, on persistent questioning, he clarified that "Fatwa is not > mandatory. Fatwas are not meant to be a general pronouncement. > Madrasi clarified that a fatwa issued by the Darul Uloom is not in > conflict with the law of land while orders of Khap panchayats in > India and Jirgas in Afghanistan and parts of Pakistan are > implemented by force." > > "A Mufti issues a fatwa only if someone comes to him for guidance. > Fatwa is not an order but a guidance of principal and even the > person seeking guidance has the option to follow it or not", Madrasi > said. > > This is the first time in recent memory that a senior cleric has > clarified that a fatwa can be followed or ignored. > > But, Mumbai film celebrities disagreed with the Deoband cleric's > view that modelling and acting in films was unislamic. > > When contacted, noted lyricist Javed Akhtar said, "There is nothing > unislamic in it. I do not know why it has become an issue". Actor > and model Zulfi Syed was of the opinion, "Islam is a modern religion > and does not bar acting or modelling. I feel people who do not have > knowledge of it make a hue and cry for no good reasons." > > His views were also endorsed by actor Shahwar Ali saying "No > religion bars acting or modelling. Like other professions this also > requires hard work. I do not understand what is the need to issue > fatwa against it." > > http://www.hindustantimes.com/Modelling-acting-un-Islamic-Deoband/H1-Article1-538475.aspx > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Mon May 3 15:10:56 2010 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 02:40:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] (Boobquake) "In the name of science, I offer my boobs" Message-ID: <815599.77551.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> ( The "Boobquake" page on Facebook is at http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=116336578385346 )   (Videos on "Boobquake" on Youtube at http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=boobquake&aq=f )   xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx     >From Jen McCreight's blog "Blag Hag":   Monday, April 19, 2010   "In the name of science, I offer my boobs"   This little bit of supernatural thinking has been floating around the blogosphere today: "Many women who do not dress modestly ... lead young men astray, corrupt their chastity and spread adultery in society, which (consequently) increases earthquakes," Hojatoleslam Kazem Sedighi was quoted as saying by Iranian media. Sedighi is Tehran's acting Friday prayer leader. I have a modest proposal. Sedighi claims that not dressing modestly causes earthquakes. If so, we should be able to test this claim scientifically. You all remember the homeopathy overdose? Time for a Boobquake. On Monday, April 26th, I will wear the most cleavage-showing shirt I own. Yes, the one usually reserved for a night on the town. I encourage other female skeptics to join me and embrace the supposed supernatural power of their breasts. Or short shorts, if that's your preferred form of immodesty. With the power of our scandalous bodies combined, we should surely produce an earthquake. If not, I'm sure Sedighi can come up with a rational explanation for why the ground didn't rumble. And if we really get through to him, maybe it'll be one involving plate tectonics. So, who's with me? I may be a D cup, but that will probably only produce a slight tremor on its own. If you'll be joining me on twitter, use the tag #boobquake! Or join the facebook event! http://www.blaghag.com/2010/04/in-name-of-science-i-offer-my-boobs.html   From chintangirishmodi at gmail.com Mon May 3 15:33:48 2010 From: chintangirishmodi at gmail.com (Chintan) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 15:33:48 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Looking for Assamese-English bilingual materials Message-ID: Hello Mahananda Pathak, a friend of mine, is looking for bilingual teaching materials for regional medium Assamese children of classes 4 and 5 to teach English. These bilingual materials could be books, word cards, posters, reading cards, parallel texts, etc. He is pursuing a Ph.D. in English Language Education at the English and Foreign Languages University in Hyderabad. His main research questions include: Can bilingual teaching materials be exploited to develop early L2 reading (English) skills of young Assamese children? If yes, how? What are the different ways and possibilities of using L1-mediated reading texts (Assamese) to develop early L2 reading skills (English) of young children? If you have any information or resources to share with Mahananda, please mail him directly at mahanandap at gmail.com Thanks a lot! Chintan From nc-agricowi at netcologne.de Mon May 3 16:25:38 2010 From: nc-agricowi at netcologne.de (artNET) Date: Mon, 03 May 2010 12:55:38 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] =?iso-8859-1?q?Program_-_week_19_-_NewMediaFest=272?= =?iso-8859-1?q?010?= Message-ID: <20100503125538.D808FF38.9D8E601D@192.168.0.2> NewMediaFest'2010 ____________________________________ program- week 19 - 3 - 9 May 2010 http://2010.newmediafest.org/?p=786 ____________________________________ 1. Feature of the Month MAY 2010 http://2010.newmediafest.org/?p=782 -->VideoChannel Cologne ------>> http://videochannel.newmediafest.org -->[self] ~imaging artists portraying themselves in film & video the 1st of a series of 4 video features to be released in May, June, July and August 2010 including 25 artists each and their film/videos Edition 1 includes--> Wilfried Agricola de Cologne (Germany) Giovanni Antignano (Italy), Christian Bermudez (Costa Rica) Jeremy Blank (Australia), Vince Briffa (Malta) Gerard Chauvin (France), Erin Gee (Canada) Erdelyi Gergely (Hungary), Magdalena Jachimiak & Anna Bieluszko (Poland) Theresa Krause (Germany), Mingyu Lee (Taiwan) Nina Marczan (Germany), Oliver Griem (South Korea) Jonas Nilsson (Sweden), Eva Olsson (Sweden) Reuben James Preston (UK), Johanna Reich (Germany) Jen Ross (UK), Jeanette Land Schou (Denmark) Olga Tzimou (Greece), Claire Ultimo (USA) Lee Welch (Ireland), Cynthia Whelan (UK) Clemens Wilhelm (Germany) 2 The month May is dedicated to 4 physical manifestations of CologneOFF V. - 5th Cologne Online Film Festival http://coff.newmediafest.org in the framework of NewMediaFest'2010 in ---> Athens (Greece) Athens Video Art Festival - 7-9 May 2010 ---> Damascus (Syria), AllArtNow International New Media Art Festival Damascus/Syria - 25-30 May 2010 --> Yerewan (Armenia) One Shot - International Shortfilm Festival Yerewan/Armenia - 17-24 May 2010 ---> Coimbra (Portugal) Fonlad - Digital Art Festival - 15-28 May Coimbra/PT All details on this week program --> http://2010.newmediafest.org/?p=786 ---------------------------------------------- NewMediaFest'2010 10 Years [NewMediaArtProjectNetwork]:||cologne global heritage of digital culture 1 January - 31 December 2010 http://2010.newmediafest.org director and chief curator: Wilfried Agricola de Cologne 2010 [at] newmediafest.org ---------------------------------------------------- From aliens at dataone.in Mon May 3 17:26:21 2010 From: aliens at dataone.in (Bipin Trivedi) Date: Mon, 03 May 2010 17:26:21 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] CBI - CONGRESS BUREAU OF INJUSTICE Message-ID: <000d01caeab7$a8a0b6a0$f9e223e0$@in> The senior MPs of BJP Shri Purshottambhai Rupala and Shri Vijaybhai Rupani have made serious allegation against Congress-ruled Central Government that it is hatching conspiracy in using CBI as Congress Bureau of Injustice to topple the duly elected and popular government of Narendra Modi in Gujarat. They have warned that if the CBI does not stop acting as a hand maiden of Congress in Gujarat, then the enlightened people of Gujarat will not sit idly by. CBI has to face people's agitation. Both the MPs have given a chronological detail of the work of CBI in Gujarat which has raised many questions. The duo said that CBI once a agency of integrity is now investigating the death of cold blooded terrorist like Sohrabuddin, instead of finding truth, totally under political directives. For more than 31/2 years many top police officers including IPS officers are in prison. And instead of conducting the trial, stays are obtained, and Congress want to keep the investigation going on till malafide intention of establishing political connection is achieved. Questioning the credibility of CBI, these senior MPs said that, CBI has become doubtful in the eyes of Gujarat. Before four months, on 12-12-2009, CBI was handed over the investigation of the Sohrabuddin case, but CBI deliberately chose the Swarnim Jayanti occasion to taint the name of Gujarat, so the historical event is disturbed and the popular government of Modi comes under severe crisis, the police force is demoralized and fails to provide security to the people who come to attend the celebrations. CBI, with this bad intention, dug open old cases, and started arresting top police officers in the name of investigation. Planned efforts are being made to create fear in the minds of police officers by sending summons. The demoralization of police force in Gujarat, at the time when crores of Gujaratis are attending different functions to celebrate the Golden Jubilee of Gujarat, a question arises, if at this time if any terrorist attack or anti-national attack takes place in Gujarat then what would be the fate of the innocent people? The MPs threw light on the nature of political discrimination against Gujarat. They said that in the entire country from 2002 to 2007many such encounters had taken place and in Gujarat those who died in encounters is much less then compared to other states as per data bellow: Encounter data for 2002 - UP 44, 2003 - UP 78 AP 5 Bihar 8 Mah 5 (India Total 118), 2004 - UP 68 AP 9 Bihar 5 Mah 4 (India Total 109), 2005 - UP 54 AP 5 Bihar 7 (India Total 84), 2006 - UP 29 AP 3 Bihar 3 (India Total 45), 2007 - UP 51 AP 5 Bihar 16 (India Total 301) while for Gujarat data are 2, 4, 6, 4, 1 for the respected years. These facts speak for themselves why CBI is giving priority to the case of criminal and terrorist Sohrabuddin. Are other encounters not important? Why should Gujarat should be showcased, and aimed at and made target of political vendetta? Both these MPs also said that, in it discussed that three States are involved in Sohrabuddin case, out of which two States are Congress ruled. A question has arisen about their role, but not a single person has been arrested in Andhra Pradesh. This clearly tells that, the entire case is used only to demonize Gujarat, and a sinister design to harass Gujarat Government politically. While the justice loving people of the entire country is demanding for the death sentence of Afzal Guru, the Congress ruled central government is telling that there are many others cases pending prior to the case of Afzal Guru and cases will be taken in chronological order. In CBI also many cases are pending for a very long time. But in order to harass Gujarat and to spoil the environment, the case of Sohrabuddin has been taken on special priority as part of the plot. They clearly told that, Supreme Court had ordered CBI only to investigate the Sohrabuddin encounter case. But instead of that, as nothing was available in the investigation, foul play is done by collecting a variety of false complaints, CBI, motivated politically, is proceeding in the name of investigation. At the instance of Congress, CBI is taking up work which was not entrusted to it, to put Gujarat administration and police under pressure and tension, to settle political scores. From aliens at dataone.in Mon May 3 17:26:51 2010 From: aliens at dataone.in (Bipin Trivedi) Date: Mon, 03 May 2010 17:26:51 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] CBI - CONGRESS BUREAU OF INJUSTICE Message-ID: <001201caeab7$b7f4f800$27dee800$@in> The senior MPs of BJP Shri Purshottambhai Rupala and Shri Vijaybhai Rupani have made serious allegation against Congress-ruled Central Government that it is hatching conspiracy in using CBI as Congress Bureau of Injustice to topple the duly elected and popular government of Narendra Modi in Gujarat. They have warned that if the CBI does not stop acting as a hand maiden of Congress in Gujarat, then the enlightened people of Gujarat will not sit idly by. CBI has to face people's agitation. Both the MPs have given a chronological detail of the work of CBI in Gujarat which has raised many questions. The duo said that CBI once a agency of integrity is now investigating the death of cold blooded terrorist like Sohrabuddin, instead of finding truth, totally under political directives. For more than 31/2 years many top police officers including IPS officers are in prison. And instead of conducting the trial, stays are obtained, and Congress want to keep the investigation going on till malafide intention of establishing political connection is achieved. Questioning the credibility of CBI, these senior MPs said that, CBI has become doubtful in the eyes of Gujarat. Before four months, on 12-12-2009, CBI was handed over the investigation of the Sohrabuddin case, but CBI deliberately chose the Swarnim Jayanti occasion to taint the name of Gujarat, so the historical event is disturbed and the popular government of Modi comes under severe crisis, the police force is demoralized and fails to provide security to the people who come to attend the celebrations. CBI, with this bad intention, dug open old cases, and started arresting top police officers in the name of investigation. Planned efforts are being made to create fear in the minds of police officers by sending summons. The demoralization of police force in Gujarat, at the time when crores of Gujaratis are attending different functions to celebrate the Golden Jubilee of Gujarat, a question arises, if at this time if any terrorist attack or anti-national attack takes place in Gujarat then what would be the fate of the innocent people? The MPs threw light on the nature of political discrimination against Gujarat. They said that in the entire country from 2002 to 2007many such encounters had taken place and in Gujarat those who died in encounters is much less then compared to other states as per data bellow: Encounter data for 2002 - UP 44, 2003 - UP 78 AP 5 Bihar 8 Mah 5 (India Total 118), 2004 - UP 68 AP 9 Bihar 5 Mah 4 (India Total 109), 2005 - UP 54 AP 5 Bihar 7 (India Total 84), 2006 - UP 29 AP 3 Bihar 3 (India Total 45), 2007 - UP 51 AP 5 Bihar 16 (India Total 301) while for Gujarat data are 2, 4, 6, 4, 1 for the respected years. These facts speak for themselves why CBI is giving priority to the case of criminal and terrorist Sohrabuddin. Are other encounters not important? Why should Gujarat should be showcased, and aimed at and made target of political vendetta? Both these MPs also said that, in it discussed that three States are involved in Sohrabuddin case, out of which two States are Congress ruled. A question has arisen about their role, but not a single person has been arrested in Andhra Pradesh. This clearly tells that, the entire case is used only to demonize Gujarat, and a sinister design to harass Gujarat Government politically. While the justice loving people of the entire country is demanding for the death sentence of Afzal Guru, the Congress ruled central government is telling that there are many others cases pending prior to the case of Afzal Guru and cases will be taken in chronological order. In CBI also many cases are pending for a very long time. But in order to harass Gujarat and to spoil the environment, the case of Sohrabuddin has been taken on special priority as part of the plot. They clearly told that, Supreme Court had ordered CBI only to investigate the Sohrabuddin encounter case. But instead of that, as nothing was available in the investigation, foul play is done by collecting a variety of false complaints, CBI, motivated politically, is proceeding in the name of investigation. At the instance of Congress, CBI is taking up work which was not entrusted to it, to put Gujarat administration and police under pressure and tension, to settle political scores. From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Mon May 3 18:12:05 2010 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 05:42:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Bamboo for Green Livelihoods Message-ID: <693065.17760.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Please see   http://www.bamboohouseindia.org/   From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Mon May 3 18:20:00 2010 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 05:50:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] 140,000 troops in FATA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <507310.13141.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> USA also pays "Blood Money" to Pakistan which Pakistan accepts very gratefully.   In fact there is a constant clamour by many in Pakistan : "You are not paying us enough!!!! We want more!!!! We want more!!!!" --- On Mon, 5/3/10, yasir ~يا سر wrote: From: yasir ~يا سر Subject: Re: [Reader-list] 140,000 troops in FATA To: "Sarai Reader-list" Date: Monday, May 3, 2010, 1:53 PM one needs to add much salt here:    - reporters are not allowed, you only get the official army version    - civilian casualties are 'normal', very high and not reported, including    extra judicial killings and right violations    - the number of internally displaced people is huge, frequently not taken    care of by anyone let alone by govt    - the motivation in no small measure comes from the US pressuring the PK    army to show that action is being taken, which frequently leads to unstable    conditions, rather than working with local actors with a long term view,    while dealing with a guerrilla like militancy. On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 11:30 AM, S. Jabbar wrote: > > FRONT-PAGE > ŒPakistan has moved 100,000 troops from eastern border¹ > > By Our Correspondent > > Friday, 30 Apr, 2010 | 01:38 AM PST | > > > WASHINGTON: Pakistan has deployed 140,000 troops in Fata, moving at least > 100,000 soldiers from the Indian border to back up its Œunprecedented¹ > crackdown on militants along the Afghan border, says a Pentagon report. > > In its mandatory report to the US Congress on the situation in the > Pakistan-Afghan region, the Pentagon notes that the deployment is the > biggest in the country¹s history on the western border. > > ³This unprecedented deployment and thinning of the lines against India > indicates that Islamabad has acknowledged its domestic insurgent threat.² > > The Pentagon also acknowledges that Pakistani military operations in the > tribal regions have had an impact across the border, placing a ³high degree > of pressure on enemy forces and reduced insurgent safe haven² in eastern > Afghanistan. > > The Pentagon informs Congress that recent arrests by Pakistan of Afghan > Taliban leaders, including the group¹s No. 2, Mullah Abdul Ghani Baradar, > have ³increased insurgent leaders¹ concern over the security of their safe > havens² and created ³financial and logistical² problems for them. > > This assessment contrasts sharply with the Afghan claim ‹ backed by India ‹ > that the arrests have weakened Kabul¹s efforts to seek a negotiated > settlement with the Taliban leadership. > > The report quotes a senior US defence official as saying that the arrests > in > Pakistan produced ³a lot of concerned chatter² among Taliban sympathisers > in > Afghanistan, but there¹s no indication of ³a leadership crisis in the > Taliban². > > The Pentagon notes that so far the crackdown in Pakistan is focused almost > exclusively on internal threats and that¹s why it¹s not having any > ³significant impact on the Afghan insurgency in the short term². > > But the crackdown ³offers opportunities in coming months to have a greater > impact on the conflict in Afghanistan depending on how PAKMIL (Pakistani > military) operations evolve,² the report adds. > > ³Pakistan has suffered attacks from terrorists in response to its > successful > operations. These attacks include mass casualty events in Mingora, South > Waziristan agency close to clearing operations as well as in Lahore, far > away from the fighting. ³While these attacks do not appear to have shaken > Pakistan¹s commitment, they do demonstrate, for the time being, insurgent > ability to continue attacks despite successful Pakistani operations,² the > report warns. > > > http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/ > > front-page/pakistan-has-moved-100,000-troops-from-indian-border-pentagon-040 > > Copyright © 2010 - Dawn Media Group > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kiccovich at yahoo.com Mon May 3 18:45:03 2010 From: kiccovich at yahoo.com (francesca recchia) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 06:15:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Bamboo for Green Livelihoods In-Reply-To: <693065.17760.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <693065.17760.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <510826.78792.qm@web113202.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> really inspiring! thanks francesca recchia kiccovich at yahoo.com it +39 338 166 3648 iq +964 (0) 750 7085 681 http://www.veleno.tv/bollettini/ ________________________________ From: Kshmendra Kaul To: sarai list Sent: Mon, 3 May, 2010 5:42:05 Subject: [Reader-list] Bamboo for Green Livelihoods Please see http://www.bamboohouseindia.org/ _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Mon May 3 18:45:53 2010 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 06:15:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] "The bad Sufi" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <295327.31698.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Yasir   You have addressed me as if I have written the article. I have not.   In Pakistan, at one level, Sufi Traditions are used for further entrenchment of class divides. You seem to agree with Qalander on that.   In Pakistan, at another level, this Sufi Image is used in public pronouncements addressed to the rest of the world, to suggest, if I may say so, a difference between Good-Islam and Bad-Islam  (akin to Good-Taliban and Bad-Taliban)   In India, many idiots who want to project themselves as 'secular' think they can do so by declaring their identification with Sufism. It is a scream but any song that has an "Allah" or a "Maula" thrown into it is tagged as "Sufi"   Your comment " most religious rhetoric has just petered out." is amusing (laughable actually) if it is about Pakistan. Why give you spate of examples to justify my reaction, it should be enough to point out the embedding of "religious rhetoric" in the recent 18th Amendment and the continued harassing of minorities with one or the other excuse in the name of "Religion".   Kshmendra --- On Sun, 5/2/10, yasir ~يا سر wrote: From: yasir ~يا سر Subject: Re: [Reader-list] "The bad Sufi" To: "Sarai Reader-list" Date: Sunday, May 2, 2010, 4:52 AM if in your thinking you go through this, i will add that you again arrive on similar ground, in which most people prefer or lets say dont know better than to follow the docile sufi behaviour of supporting the status quo. let alone the landlord-sufi types for now. that is this is definitely not wahhabi. you're mixing things up. the class element of this is qalandar;'s point and i find it valid (also as in sarah ansari's book on british patronage of certain pir families), that sufism offers no way out. this is arguable for other reasons such as histories of orders, leave that alone too. your scepticism is going haywire without ground. yes, qalandar describes the majority of pakistan's attitude well. there is no radical social move (either other islamic or islamic sufi kind that challenges the staus quo). the absence of this is a problem. it should be there. most religious rhetoric has just petered out. best On Sat, May 1, 2010 at 3:45 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Manmohan Singh's (paraphrased) exultation "Isnt it great!!!!! Yousuf > Gilani's ancestors helped my ancestors build the Golden Temple" reminded me > of the article posted below. (Prompted by Gilani's roots being traced to a > Sufi Order.) > > Kshmendra > > > "The bad Sufi" > By Qalandar Bux Memon > Tuesday, 26 Jan, 2010 > > It is often assumed that Sufism stands opposed to Wahhabism. Wrong. Sufism > and Wahhabism, in fact, share a fatal characteristic – they are religions of > the status quo.  In Pakistan, Sufism legitimises barbarities of inequality > and starvation – ‘do nothing, it’s god’s will’ - while at the same time > justifying structures of oppressive power, Pirism and landlordism, rather > like Wahhabism in Saudi Arabia.  Contemporary Sufism, rather than being a > solution to Pakistan’s problems, is the cause. > > > > > > > I was sitting at the shrine of Shah Kamal in Lahore, with the dhol beats > and whirling dervishes dancing to connect to the ‘centre of the universe in > themselves’, when a friend turned and pointed to an old German fellow > sitting a few meters from us. “He just delivered a lecture on Sufism. He is > an expert on the subject, and talked about how it’s a religion of peace and > love.” > > I replied curtly: “Have you ever been in love? Have you had your heart > broken? What peace is there in that state? What peace was there when Mansur > had his head chopped off on the orders of the Baghdadi Emperor? What peace > was there when Shah Inayat was fighting against the Mughal emperor for his > life and that of his commune? What peace is there in Sassui’s peeling feet > as she searches for her beloved through the desert of Sindh?” > > My friend agreed and said: “But they pay me – I have to go along with > them.” > > Western and Pakistani policymakers think Islam can be codified as either a > religion of peace and love and given the brand of Sufism, or as a religion > of violent jihad. They think it’s better, at this point in time, to promote > the peaceful religion of Sufism. > > Note how the word Islam is taken out – Sufism is codified as not really > Islam. Thus Sufism is considered a perfect native antidote to the violent > religion of Islam. > > Why are dollars, pounds, rupees and Euros going to promote Sufism? What is > it about today’s Sufism that allows it to serve a purpose for the American > empire, and what function does it play locally in Pakistan? > > The answer was hard for me to stomach. I had spent much time researching > aspects of Sufism, and I thought I’d found a touchstone from which to > articulate a spirituality that was socially radical and politically > challenging to Pakistan’s parasitic elite and the US/Nato invaders. Ziauddin > Sardar, polymath writer and scholar of Islam, forced me to face the facts. > > He called Sufism “docile”, acting as an opiate for the masses, with most > Pirs/Syeds/Sufis amounting to nothing short of “confidence tricksters”. And > indeed, Sufism is docile. A shopkeeper in Main Market, Gulberg, had an > emblem of the Sufi saint Lal Qalandar hanging in his shop, which he had got > from Sehraw Sharif, Sindh, the town where the saint is buried. He said that > “what these people do not realise is that 80 per cent of what we pray at the > shrine [of Lal Qalandar] comes true.” A popular song sung across the Punjab > at Sufi shrines tells women that if they light a lantern at the shrine of > saints, their desire for a ‘son’ will be answered. > > Items given by holy Pirs - threads, rings, blessings, and even sexual > induction before marriage (in the case of a notorious Sindhi landlord/Pir) - > are taken as altering the universe and leading to the granting of prayers of > health, wealth, and other worthy claims by this mass of the wretched that is > the Pakistani citizen. It is not only candles and lanterns that are lit at > the shrines; money is exchanged and power is sustained. It is this power > that has created a “docile” Sufism. > > Pakistan is a vastly unequal society. Government figures put those below > the poverty line at close to 40 per cent of the population, though the true > figure may be closer to 50 per cent. Inequity is the hallmark of the Sindh > province of Pakistan, which is celebrated as “the land of the Sufis” and is > where Sufis and Pirs hold power.  A recent World Bank report noted that > Sindh has the narrowest distribution of land ownership, with the richest one > per cent of farmers owning 150 per cent more land than the bottom 62 per > cent of farmers put together. Feudal landlords in vast parts of Sindh have > holdings of thousands of acres, and most of them are Syeds or Pirs. These > lands were sometimes acquired during the Mughal era but were largely > consolidated during the British colonial rule in India. The British, looking > for local collaborators, found Sufi Pirs willing to oblige. > > Sarah Ansari, in her book, Sufi Saints and State Power: The Pirs of Sind, > 1843-1947, notes: ‘the Sindhi Pirs participated in the British system of > control in order to protect their privileges and to extend them further > whenever and wherever possible’. > > Today’s feudalists are keen to protect and promote “docile” Sufism to > sustain their wealth and power – this time with US help. > > Wealth is created by a pool of landless serfs who toil thousands of acres > for their spiritual masters, while seeing their own children starve. These > serfs create the wealth that sends the Bhuttos and the Gilanis to > universities such as Oxford and Harvard, while their children get > “blessings” and threads of “Pirs”. This stream of inequity from generation > to generation is based on a lame theological idea, which nonetheless has > been promoted by the Mughal Empire, the British Empire, the landlords > themselves, and now by the American Empire, and thanks to such patronage has > gained far more ground than the Taliban. It states that the Prophet was > given divine light/knowledge, which passes on to his descendents. These > descendents append the honorific title of ‘Syed’ [literally, ‘master’], and > claim divine and material privileges. > > Pirs justify their superiority on a similar argument – they were given the > light, and this light continues to radiate in their descendants. At a > recital of the poetry of the radical Sufi Waris Shah held each year in > Lahore, the descendents of Iman Bari Sarkar (a Pir) enter the arena to be > received with awe and sought for blessings by the crowd. The recital stops > and they are escorted to the front and seated. All eyes are on these holy > men who are not only descendents of a Pir but also Syeds – thus, doubly > blessed with ‘light’! And then they begin expounding their ideology: “We the > Syeds get different treatment from God Almighty, for our good deeds we get > double the reward compared to ‘murids’ [non-Syeds] who only get single > reward for a single good deed … but, it’s not easy to be a Syed … [he > laughs] … we have to suffer double the punishment for our any wrong deeds > whereas you [non-Syeds] get only single punishment for a single >  wrong deed!” > > There you have it! Our holy man explains why he has a Land Cruiser jeep and > “non-Syeds” have donkey carts. He explains why most Pakistanis are living in > poverty while he and his Syeds and Pirs are lapping it up in luxury. > > Contemporary Sufism is the ideology of Sindh’s landlords. It is the > ideology that is used to uphold their wealth and despotism, and keeps > millions in serfdom. A similar pattern is repeated throughout Pakistan. > Given the lack of proportional representation and the vast inequality in > power in each district between Pirs and the rest, it is almost always the > case that elections flood parliament with Pirs/Syeds/landlords. The current > Pakistani Prime Minister (Syed Yousaf Raza Gilani) and Foreign Minister > (Makhdoom Shah Mehmood Qureshi) are examples. Both have the claim of being > descended from Holy Pirs as the basis of their wealth and distinction. As a > result, we cannot expect parliament to challenge inequity and injustice in > Pakistan. > > Parliamentarians know that lack of education, coupled with the obscurantism > of contemporary Sufism, sustains their power. Like the British before them, > the Americans don’t care about Pakistan’s growing multitude of serfs and the > underclass, they don’t care whether the Prime Minister and the Foreign > Minister of Pakistan are deeply rooted in the cause of inequity and > injustice in the country and part of the promotion of a system of starvation > – a Sufism that tells people to take a blessing instead of demanding food, > education, justice and liberty. Like the British, they will fund whoever > furthers their interests. We, however, must care. > > This is an article by Qalandar Bux Memon, editor of Naked Punch, from the > The Samosa, a new UK-based politics, culture and arts journal, campaigning > blog and website. > > > > > > var href = document.location.href; > href = href.substring(0,href.indexOf("?")); > document.write(href); > > > http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/pakistan/03-the-bad-sufi-ss-02 > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Mon May 3 19:02:29 2010 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 06:32:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Yousuf & Manmohan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <437744.47894.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Yasir   Yes, Buddhist Heritage of Pakistan is being spoken about and worked upon. It is treated as being distinct from Hindu Heritage. There are 2 other reasons. One, the great potential of Buddhist-Tourism. Second, (devious as ever Pakistan) to establish a connection with the Buddhist-Dalits of India.   Hindu Heritage of Pakistan being promoted? You must be joking. Could you give some significant examples comparable with the promoting of the Buddhist Heritage?   Nothing wrong with "using religion to promote love". That is perhaps the only useful aspect of "Religions".   But, you 'promote love' where there is reciprocity. India would be idiotic to repose such trust in Pakistan until Pakistan continues to teach hate against India  and propagate it by both word and action.   Kshmendra --- On Sun, 5/2/10, yasir ~يا سر wrote: From: yasir ~يا سر Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Yousuf & Manmohan To: "Sarai Reader-list" Date: Sunday, May 2, 2010, 12:09 AM dont worry there are enough people in Pakistan to remind other pakistanis of the hindu and buddhist heritage. hope you will not overlook that. using religion to promote love - whats wrong with that ! ? y On Sat, May 1, 2010 at 3:32 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Touting religion to promote love is a short step away from using religion > to propagate hate. No better example of the latter than the Pakistani > Nation. > > Manmohan Singh, as the Prime Minister of a supposedly secular India, has no > business to use 'religion' for managing India's External Affairs. > > Wonder why Manmohan Singh did not go the full distance and remind > Pakistan's PM and others in the SARC summit, of the "Hindu Heritage" > of Pakistanis. > > Kshmendra > > --- On *Thu, 4/29/10, yasir ~يا سر * wrote: > > > From: yasir ~يا سر > Subject: [Reader-list] Yousuf & Manmohan > To: "Sarai Reader-list" > Date: Thursday, April 29, 2010, 11:06 PM > > Historic walk of two prime ministers > *Gilani’s ancestors helped build Golden Temple > * > http://www.thenews.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=28551 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From javedmasoo at gmail.com Mon May 3 19:32:14 2010 From: javedmasoo at gmail.com (Javed) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 19:32:14 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] RSS involved in Makka masjid and Ajmer dargah blasts Message-ID: RSS involved in Makka masjid and Ajmer dargah blasts New Delhi, May 01: Devendra Gupta, who was arrested by the Rajasthan Anti- Terrorism Squad (ATS) on Wednesday in connection with the 2007 Ajmer dargah blast, was produced before the chief judicial magistrate’s court in Ajmer on Friday.The court remanded him in custody for 12 days. According to headlines today tv channel whose owners have a profess a closer relationship with BJP have come out with a startling story of involvement of top rung RSS leadership in MAKKA MASJID and Ajmer Dargah. Ashish Khaitan investigated and has closer rappot with CBI investigation into both the blasts says the blast in both the Muslim religious places have taken place after the concurrence of top RSS leadership.The long term plan was abodened after CBI picked up the trails of blast towards Hindutava groups. In fact the bombs which were blasted in Hyderabad was wrapped in Telugu papers and numbered 1 and 2 .The bombs in Ajmer were numbered 3 and 4, and Gupta confessed that they wanted to take this bombing to many Muslim religious places and had to be stopped because of CBI pressure. The RSS leadership from 6 states took this bold decision on planting the bombs. Already 3 people have been arrested and 2 are still absconding. The blasts in MAKKA MASJID and AJMER DARGAH were conducted by using the SIM cards purchased by Gupta. The credit for bringing the hindutava forces into focus goes to retired professor from IIT mumbai Mr Ram Punyani who was responsible for bringing out the first blast linking report towards Hindutava forces in Malagoan. Mumbai ATS chief Hemant Karkare was instrumental in booking Pragya Thakur and EX Armymen LT Col Prohit. Already these people are in jail. Gupta is accused of procuring SIM cards used in the timer of the bombs planted at the Dargah. The blast on October 11, 2007, had killed three persons and injured 30 people.Gupta is suspected to have had close links with Sadhvi Pragya Singh Thakur, a Hindu extremist, and Abhinav Bharat, a right- wing Hindu organisation allegedly involved in the Malegaon blasts. He is also reportedly an office- bearer of the Jharkhand unit of a right- wing Hindu organisation. According to Gupta’s mother Pushpa Devi, the suspect, a matriculate, went to live with his brother in Indore 12 years ago. He shifted base to Muzaffarpur after two years. And it was at Muzaffarpur that he joined the Hindu organisation. Sources said Gupta was on his way to Agra after visiting his mother in Ajmer when he was arrested. He was brought to Jaipur for questioning on Thursday.The police have also detained Gupta’s cousin and alleged accomplice, Aman. Earlier, an investigation had revealed that nine SIM cards were procured as part of the conspiracy from West Bengal’s Krishnanagar district and Jharkhand’s Jamtara district. ATS officers said Gupta had procured SIM cards from Dumka near Jamtara in Jharkhand identifying himself as Babulal Yadav. Rajasthan home minister Shanti Dhariwal said the accused was an RSS activist with suspected links to other right- wing organisations.Maharashtra home minister R. R. Patil had hinted during his recent visit to Ajmer that blasts at Malegaon and Ajmer could be linked. ATS additional director general Kapil Garg, however, said it was premature to arrive at conclusions as the investigation was under way. http://www.siasat.com/english/news/rss-involved-makka-masjid-and-ajmer-dargah-blasts From info at fondation-langlois.org Mon May 3 20:04:21 2010 From: info at fondation-langlois.org (Fondation Daniel Langlois) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 10:34:21 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] News from the Daniel Langlois Foundation Message-ID: <69ab3592562b6551b2617597001b2f24@fondation-langlois.org> New DOCAM Web site At the Fifth DOCAM Summit (4-5 March, 2010), the Research Alliance launched its new Web site www.docam.ca, featuring the following main research results: - A Preservation Guide for Technology-Based Artworks; - A Cataloguing Guide for New Media Collections; - A Documentary Model adapted to media arts; - The DOCAM Glossaurus, a bilingual terminological tool; - A Technological Timeline. The video documentation of the whole public conference, as well as pictures of the Summit, are now available online on the DOCAM Web site: http://www.docam.ca/en/annual-summits/2010-summit.html Tmema, The Manual Input Workstation (2004-2006) The Manual Input Workstation is an interactive installation by Tmema (Golan Levin and Zachary Lieberman). Interactions take place on a combination of custom interactive software, an analog overhead projector, and a digital computer video projector. The analog and digital projectors are aligned such that their projections overlap, resulting in an unusual quality of hybridized, dynamic light. This documentary collection was compiled by Katja Kwastek while the piece was being shown as part of the exhibition See This Sound (Lentos Kunstmuseum, Linz, Austria): http://www.fondation-langlois.org/html/e/page.php?NumPage=2220 From yasir.media at gmail.com Mon May 3 20:21:55 2010 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?eWFzaXIgftmK2Kcg2LPYsQ==?=) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 19:51:55 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] 140,000 troops in FATA In-Reply-To: <507310.13141.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <507310.13141.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: no sorry you totally got that from an enemy perspective. please get this right. if you ask us, we will tell you the following: the people of pakistan are the real victim, when the govt of pakistan, the pakistan army, sold itself to the united states, becoming a mercenary state for them. the relation is completely one-sided. what development in real terms have we seen, take any indicator. why are we worse off with many systems existing and functioning back in the postpartition days woefully nonexistent or malfunctional, let alone any new systems. the answer is quite severe. we have a military budget which has to deal with india which is many itimes its size and (had been) eadger to destabilize it after breaking it up into 2 in 1971, and which had earlier eaten up hyderabad and kashmir. so we are now doomed to military spending which comes anyway from the US, leaving little in the way of major public projects which could have benefited people at large. Government spending was eaten by the military. if you imagine what kind of a present society we could have been if we had not stuck to this stupid military buildup (you can eveluate your own side). so the war on terror is just another day, another cloud. but it follows the covert US action in Afghanistan against the Soviets using Afghanis and Pakistanis then disappearing for a decade and showing up again this time because the militancy the americans had started, charlie wilson's war starring tom cruise, could not be put out and took the wtc with it. sorry there is no conspiracy here. we are getting the blame 'for not doing enough' and then we have to deal with your pearls of wisdom strewn from across the border. so dear KK, we are not asking for blood money. we are saying: having destroyed the region, you better build it up now, to what it should be like. i think this is not only possible, but also a moral responsility of the US in no uncertain terms. and we dont trust them either because of this history. best y On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 5:50 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > USA also pays "Blood Money" to Pakistan which Pakistan accepts very > gratefully. > > In fact there is a constant clamour by many in Pakistan : "You are not > paying us enough!!!! We want more!!!! We want more!!!!" > > --- On *Mon, 5/3/10, yasir ~يا سر * wrote: > > > From: yasir ~يا سر > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] 140,000 troops in FATA > To: "Sarai Reader-list" > Date: Monday, May 3, 2010, 1:53 PM > > one needs to add much salt here: > > > - reporters are not allowed, you only get the official army version > - civilian casualties are 'normal', very high and not reported, > including > extra judicial killings and right violations > - the number of internally displaced people is huge, frequently not > taken > care of by anyone let alone by govt > - the motivation in no small measure comes from the US pressuring the PK > army to show that action is being taken, which frequently leads to > unstable > conditions, rather than working with local actors with a long term view, > while dealing with a guerrilla like militancy. > > > > On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 11:30 AM, S. Jabbar > > wrote: > > > > > FRONT-PAGE > > ŒPakistan has moved 100,000 troops from eastern border¹ > > > > By Our Correspondent > > > > Friday, 30 Apr, 2010 | 01:38 AM PST | > > > > > > WASHINGTON: Pakistan has deployed 140,000 troops in Fata, moving at least > > 100,000 soldiers from the Indian border to back up its Œunprecedented¹ > > crackdown on militants along the Afghan border, says a Pentagon report. > > > > In its mandatory report to the US Congress on the situation in the > > Pakistan-Afghan region, the Pentagon notes that the deployment is the > > biggest in the country¹s history on the western border. > > > > ³This unprecedented deployment and thinning of the lines against India > > indicates that Islamabad has acknowledged its domestic insurgent threat.² > > > > The Pentagon also acknowledges that Pakistani military operations in the > > tribal regions have had an impact across the border, placing a ³high > degree > > of pressure on enemy forces and reduced insurgent safe haven² in eastern > > Afghanistan. > > > > The Pentagon informs Congress that recent arrests by Pakistan of Afghan > > Taliban leaders, including the group¹s No. 2, Mullah Abdul Ghani Baradar, > > have ³increased insurgent leaders¹ concern over the security of their > safe > > havens² and created ³financial and logistical² problems for them. > > > > This assessment contrasts sharply with the Afghan claim ‹ backed by India > ‹ > > that the arrests have weakened Kabul¹s efforts to seek a negotiated > > settlement with the Taliban leadership. > > > > The report quotes a senior US defence official as saying that the arrests > > in > > Pakistan produced ³a lot of concerned chatter² among Taliban sympathisers > > in > > Afghanistan, but there¹s no indication of ³a leadership crisis in the > > Taliban². > > > > The Pentagon notes that so far the crackdown in Pakistan is focused > almost > > exclusively on internal threats and that¹s why it¹s not having any > > ³significant impact on the Afghan insurgency in the short term². > > > > But the crackdown ³offers opportunities in coming months to have a > greater > > impact on the conflict in Afghanistan depending on how PAKMIL (Pakistani > > military) operations evolve,² the report adds. > > > > ³Pakistan has suffered attacks from terrorists in response to its > > successful > > operations. These attacks include mass casualty events in Mingora, South > > Waziristan agency close to clearing operations as well as in Lahore, far > > away from the fighting. ³While these attacks do not appear to have shaken > > Pakistan¹s commitment, they do demonstrate, for the time being, insurgent > > ability to continue attacks despite successful Pakistani operations,² the > > report warns. > > > > > > > http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/ > > > > > front-page/pakistan-has-moved-100,000-troops-from-indian-border-pentagon-040< > http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/%0Afront-page/pakistan-has-moved-100,000-troops-from-indian-border-pentagon-040 > > > > > > > Copyright © 2010 - Dawn Media Group > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > From aliens at dataone.in Mon May 3 20:52:08 2010 From: aliens at dataone.in (Bipin Trivedi) Date: Mon, 03 May 2010 20:52:08 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT In-Reply-To: <728CF378-2EB8-418C-88AB-B2E137F79AB2@sarai.net> References: <000601caea8b$c3560a30$4a021e90$@in> <728CF378-2EB8-418C-88AB-B2E137F79AB2@sarai.net> Message-ID: <000b01caead4$663e5d90$32bb18b0$@in> If he is guilty? Do you have any doubt about brutal terror act and guilt of Kasav? It is surprising statement and feel sorry for your thought. For his guilt, no judge analysis is required and even small children also can understand for his brutal act and guilt. You prefer life imprisonment for whom? Who killed Indian and other people and the same Indian tax payers' money to spent for his lifelong imprisonment. Again feel sorry for your thought. From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta [mailto:shuddha at sarai.net] Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 12:14 PM To: Bipin Trivedi Cc: sarai-list Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT if he is found guilty, then life imprisonment, based on the quantum of his crimes. I remain opposed to the awarding of capital punishment under any circumstances. On 03-May-10, at 12:12 PM, Bipin Trivedi wrote: TODAY IS THE DAY OF AJMAL KASAV VERDICT. What do you think, what should be the punishment for him? _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From mayur.suresh at gmail.com Mon May 3 21:02:17 2010 From: mayur.suresh at gmail.com (Mayur) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 21:02:17 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?SIMI_chief_won=92t_fight_ban_anymo?= =?windows-1252?q?re=2C_says_=91mindless=92?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: http://www.indianexpress.com/story-print/614202/ [image: Indian Express] SIMI chief won’t fight ban anymore, says ‘mindless’ *Krishnadas Rajagopal* Posted online: Monday , May 03, 2010 at 0157 hrs *New Delhi : * Dr Shahid Badar, the chief of the banned Students’ Islamic Movement of India (SIMI), has written to a Special Tribunal saying he does not want to fight the government anymore, but intends to quietly practise Unani medicine in his native village. “I completed my Bachelor of Unani Medicine and Surgery (BUMS) programme from Aligarh Muslim University in the year 1998 and run a small clinic in village Manchobha, where I live, and where I offer my services to people irrespective of their race, caste, class or religion. This is my practise of Islam,” he wrote to Justice Sanjiv Khanna, who presides over the Unlawful Activities (Prevention) Tribunal, in an affidavit yesterday. The tribunal exclusively hears pleas of organisations banned by the Centre for alleged unlawful activities, and is presided over by a judge of the Delhi High Court. Since September 2001, the 38-year-old Badar has been involved in a lone legal battle against four consecutive bans on SIMI. The Centre had declared the organisation an “unlawful association” after the 9/11 terror attacks on the World Trade Center in New York. Badar’s affidavit is in reply to a government notification for a fifth ban on SIMI. In his affidavit, Badar says: “My medical practice, and through it service to the community, is very important to me. For several of my clients, I am the only source of medical care. I am therefore not in a position to leave village Manchobha, Azamgarh District, Uttar Pradesh, for extended periods of time.” Previously, Badar had submitted in courts that SIMI had “ceased to exist” and there were “no members” left, forcing him to litigate alone. But the government has consistently maintained that SIMI is still active and “financially sound”. “I want to put an end to this mindless, futile, unequal, unethical and unjust exercise... I have therefore chosen not to contest the declaration of the Central Government,” he says. Badar, who was arrested in a night raid at SIMI’s Delhi office in Zakir Nagar in September 2001 and has been on bail since 2004, states: “I have never committed any offence whatsoever, either during the period when the declarations have been effective, or before the organisation was declared an unlawful association.” He points out that, since the first ban on September 27, 2001, not a single case against any member of the association under the Unlawful Activities (Prevention) Act, 1967, has “attained finality before any court of law”. “Every case registered against members of the association has ended, either in acquittal or discharge of the accused,” he wrote to the tribunal. As per government records filed before the Supreme Court in the year 2008, there were 349 cases registered against SIMI activists across the country before February 2006 and there have been 53 more since then. Badar in his affidavit refers to Justice Gita Mittal, the earlier judge of the tribunal, who on August 5, 2008, refused to confirm with a Union Home Ministry opinion that SIMI was an unlawful association. The Supreme Court, the very next day, had cancelled Justice Mittal’s order and re-placed the ban on SIMI for the fourth time. Badar alleges that neither he nor his lawyers was properly intimated of the developments both in the tribunal and the Supreme Court. The government had argued that three of the 12 states in which SIMI has been found active — Delhi, Ahmedabad and Bangalore — had already witnessed blasts. “Its members being students and youths, SIMI is easily influenced by hardcore Muslim terror organisations operating within the country and abroad,” the government affidavits had stated in the Supreme Court. From chintangirishmodi at gmail.com Mon May 3 21:09:56 2010 From: chintangirishmodi at gmail.com (Chintan) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 21:09:56 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Kusuma Young Researcher Awards 2010 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Details here: http://www.eledu.net/?q=en/node/2362 Excerpt: "Kusuma Foundation is an Indian non-profit organisation working towards improving the situation of under-privileged children in India. It invests in enhancing opportunities for education and quality of schooling through collaboration with various partners. Kusuma is also keen to encourage research in the areas of children and education and is pleased to announce the national competition for Kusuma Young Researcher Award for the year 2010." From shuddha at sarai.net Mon May 3 21:12:14 2010 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 21:12:14 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT In-Reply-To: <000b01caead4$663e5d90$32bb18b0$@in> References: <000601caea8b$c3560a30$4a021e90$@in> <728CF378-2EB8-418C-88AB-B2E137F79AB2@sarai.net> <000b01caead4$663e5d90$32bb18b0$@in> Message-ID: <4E617495-31D5-4EF5-B1DF-57A158F52566@sarai.net> Mr. Trivedi, In any trial, there is the possibility that the defendent will be acquitted. Otherwise it would not be a trial. The guilt or innocence of Kasab, or of any defendent, in a legal sense, is not for you or for me to decide, it is for the judge. And the judge does so depending on the evidence that is presented to him by the advocates who speak for the prosecution and for the defence. If the evidence suggests guilt to the judge, no doubt he will pronounce him guilty. Then we can argue over whether or not the judge delivered a fair verdict. But until such time as the judge pronounces his sentence, the only thing we can begin to speak of his fate is in the terms of - 'if' he is guilty. I oppose capital punishment, no matter who is to be hanged, and for what crime, for the same reason which makes me oppose the decision of someone like Kasab (if he is indeed found guilty) to be an executioner in the streets of Bombay on 26.11.2008. If Kasab is proven to be the killer that the prosecution says he is, then no doubt part of his motivation will be seen to be his own twisted notion of justice. He too will then justify his conduct, not on the grounds of lowly self defence ( a ground on which i can justify violence) but on the grounds of his sense of having to avenge what he pereceives terrible wrongs. Just as you want the state to do by killing him. What then, is the difference between his sense of justice and yours? Finally, I simply do not want to see the taxes I pay to the state being used to commit pre-meditated slaughter. I hope that gives you a sense of why I do not feel the need to say sorry for what I feel. best Shuddha On 03-May-10, at 8:52 PM, Bipin Trivedi wrote: > If he is guilty? Do you have any doubt about brutal terror act and > guilt of Kasav? It is surprising statement and feel sorry for your > thought. For his guilt, no judge analysis is required and even > small children also can understand for his brutal act and guilt. > > You prefer life imprisonment for whom? Who killed Indian and other > people and the same Indian tax payers’ money to spent for his > lifelong imprisonment. Again feel sorry for your thought. > > > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta [mailto:shuddha at sarai.net] > Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 12:14 PM > To: Bipin Trivedi > Cc: sarai-list > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > if he is found guilty, then life imprisonment, based on the quantum > of his crimes. I remain opposed to the awarding of capital > punishment under any circumstances. > > > On 03-May-10, at 12:12 PM, Bipin Trivedi wrote: > > > TODAY IS THE DAY OF AJMAL KASAV VERDICT. > > > > What do you think, what should be the punishment for him? > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From yasir.media at gmail.com Tue May 4 00:02:37 2010 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?eWFzaXIgftmK2Kcg2LPYsQ==?=) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 23:32:37 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] "The bad Sufi" In-Reply-To: <295327.31698.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <295327.31698.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: see below Kshmendra Kaul : > Dear Yasir > > You have addressed me as if I have written the article. I have not. > > in my earlier reply, i was addressing the reader, not 'you'. ie. as a reader of the article and your email, one goes through _ _ > In Pakistan, at one level, Sufi Traditions are used for further > entrenchment of class divides. You seem to agree with Qalander on that. > > In Pakistan, at another level, this Sufi Image is used in public > pronouncements addressed to the rest of the world, to suggest, if I may say > so, a difference between Good-Islam and Bad-Islam (akin to Good-Taliban and > Bad-Taliban) > there is some truth to that, although there have been sufi orders of soldiers, in history Besides the majority of pakistanis "barelvi" meaning not deobandi and hence we can say they are sufistic and have activities around shrines, have lots of sweet things, flowers and singing. so its generally true. > > In India, many idiots who want to project themselves as 'secular' think > they can do so by declaring their identification with Sufism. It is a scream > but any song that has an "Allah" or a "Maula" thrown into it is tagged as > "Sufi" > > thats consequences of/like 'bollywood' > Your comment " most religious rhetoric has just petered out." is amusing > (laughable actually) if it is about Pakistan. Why give you spate of examples > to justify my reaction, it should be enough to point out the embedding of > "religious rhetoric" in the recent 18th Amendment and the continued > harassing of minorities with one or the other excuse in the name of > "Religion". > I have the advantage of being here. and the mullas have disappeared. no one is paying attention to them, and they are suffering. as for structural burdens, like being the victim of how someone treats minorities or the poor, that is is still there, although in the constitution they are protected (just cant be president if you are not muslim, but you can be poor, you can still be PM). the reason is not muslimness, the reason is the populous hierarchical caste, tribe and and class based society peculiar to all north india, including those provinces that are now pakistan. cities and other geographic dynamics are there too. why dont you visit and see. best > Kshmendra > > --- On *Sun, 5/2/10, yasir ~يا سر * wrote: > > > From: yasir ~يا سر > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] "The bad Sufi" > To: "Sarai Reader-list" > Date: Sunday, May 2, 2010, 4:52 AM > > if in your thinking you go through this, i will add that you again arrive > on > similar ground, in which most people prefer or lets say dont know better > than to follow the docile sufi behaviour of supporting the status quo. let > alone the landlord-sufi types for now. that is this is definitely not > wahhabi. you're mixing things up. the class element of this is qalandar;'s > point and i find it valid (also as in sarah ansari's book on british > patronage of certain pir families), that sufism offers no way out. this is > arguable for other reasons such as histories of orders, leave that alone > too. your scepticism is going haywire without ground. yes, qalandar > describes the majority of pakistan's attitude well. there is no radical > social move (either other islamic or islamic sufi kind that challenges the > staus quo). the absence of this is a problem. it should be there. most > religious rhetoric has just petered out. > > best > > > > On Sat, May 1, 2010 at 3:45 PM, Kshmendra Kaul > >wrote: > > > Manmohan Singh's (paraphrased) exultation "Isnt it great!!!!! Yousuf > > Gilani's ancestors helped my ancestors build the Golden Temple" reminded > me > > of the article posted below. (Prompted by Gilani's roots being traced to > a > > Sufi Order.) > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > "The bad Sufi" > > By Qalandar Bux Memon > > Tuesday, 26 Jan, 2010 > > > > It is often assumed that Sufism stands opposed to Wahhabism. Wrong. > Sufism > > and Wahhabism, in fact, share a fatal characteristic – they are religions > of > > the status quo. In Pakistan, Sufism legitimises barbarities of > inequality > > and starvation – ‘do nothing, it’s god’s will’ - while at the same time > > justifying structures of oppressive power, Pirism and landlordism, rather > > like Wahhabism in Saudi Arabia. Contemporary Sufism, rather than being a > > solution to Pakistan’s problems, is the cause. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I was sitting at the shrine of Shah Kamal in Lahore, with the dhol beats > > and whirling dervishes dancing to connect to the ‘centre of the universe > in > > themselves’, when a friend turned and pointed to an old German fellow > > sitting a few meters from us. “He just delivered a lecture on Sufism. He > is > > an expert on the subject, and talked about how it’s a religion of peace > and > > love.” > > > > I replied curtly: “Have you ever been in love? Have you had your heart > > broken? What peace is there in that state? What peace was there when > Mansur > > had his head chopped off on the orders of the Baghdadi Emperor? What > peace > > was there when Shah Inayat was fighting against the Mughal emperor for > his > > life and that of his commune? What peace is there in Sassui’s peeling > feet > > as she searches for her beloved through the desert of Sindh?” > > > > My friend agreed and said: “But they pay me – I have to go along with > > them.” > > > > Western and Pakistani policymakers think Islam can be codified as either > a > > religion of peace and love and given the brand of Sufism, or as a > religion > > of violent jihad. They think it’s better, at this point in time, to > promote > > the peaceful religion of Sufism. > > > > Note how the word Islam is taken out – Sufism is codified as not really > > Islam. Thus Sufism is considered a perfect native antidote to the violent > > religion of Islam. > > > > Why are dollars, pounds, rupees and Euros going to promote Sufism? What > is > > it about today’s Sufism that allows it to serve a purpose for the > American > > empire, and what function does it play locally in Pakistan? > > > > The answer was hard for me to stomach. I had spent much time researching > > aspects of Sufism, and I thought I’d found a touchstone from which to > > articulate a spirituality that was socially radical and politically > > challenging to Pakistan’s parasitic elite and the US/Nato invaders. > Ziauddin > > Sardar, polymath writer and scholar of Islam, forced me to face the > facts. > > > > He called Sufism “docile”, acting as an opiate for the masses, with most > > Pirs/Syeds/Sufis amounting to nothing short of “confidence tricksters”. > And > > indeed, Sufism is docile. A shopkeeper in Main Market, Gulberg, had an > > emblem of the Sufi saint Lal Qalandar hanging in his shop, which he had > got > > from Sehraw Sharif, Sindh, the town where the saint is buried. He said > that > > “what these people do not realise is that 80 per cent of what we pray at > the > > shrine [of Lal Qalandar] comes true.” A popular song sung across the > Punjab > > at Sufi shrines tells women that if they light a lantern at the shrine of > > saints, their desire for a ‘son’ will be answered. > > > > Items given by holy Pirs - threads, rings, blessings, and even sexual > > induction before marriage (in the case of a notorious Sindhi > landlord/Pir) - > > are taken as altering the universe and leading to the granting of prayers > of > > health, wealth, and other worthy claims by this mass of the wretched that > is > > the Pakistani citizen. It is not only candles and lanterns that are lit > at > > the shrines; money is exchanged and power is sustained. It is this power > > that has created a “docile” Sufism. > > > > Pakistan is a vastly unequal society. Government figures put those below > > the poverty line at close to 40 per cent of the population, though the > true > > figure may be closer to 50 per cent. Inequity is the hallmark of the > Sindh > > province of Pakistan, which is celebrated as “the land of the Sufis” and > is > > where Sufis and Pirs hold power. A recent World Bank report noted that > > Sindh has the narrowest distribution of land ownership, with the richest > one > > per cent of farmers owning 150 per cent more land than the bottom 62 per > > cent of farmers put together. Feudal landlords in vast parts of Sindh > have > > holdings of thousands of acres, and most of them are Syeds or Pirs. These > > lands were sometimes acquired during the Mughal era but were largely > > consolidated during the British colonial rule in India. The British, > looking > > for local collaborators, found Sufi Pirs willing to oblige. > > > > Sarah Ansari, in her book, Sufi Saints and State Power: The Pirs of Sind, > > 1843-1947, notes: ‘the Sindhi Pirs participated in the British system of > > control in order to protect their privileges and to extend them further > > whenever and wherever possible’. > > > > Today’s feudalists are keen to protect and promote “docile” Sufism to > > sustain their wealth and power – this time with US help. > > > > Wealth is created by a pool of landless serfs who toil thousands of acres > > for their spiritual masters, while seeing their own children starve. > These > > serfs create the wealth that sends the Bhuttos and the Gilanis to > > universities such as Oxford and Harvard, while their children get > > “blessings” and threads of “Pirs”. This stream of inequity from > generation > > to generation is based on a lame theological idea, which nonetheless has > > been promoted by the Mughal Empire, the British Empire, the landlords > > themselves, and now by the American Empire, and thanks to such patronage > has > > gained far more ground than the Taliban. It states that the Prophet was > > given divine light/knowledge, which passes on to his descendents. These > > descendents append the honorific title of ‘Syed’ [literally, ‘master’], > and > > claim divine and material privileges. > > > > Pirs justify their superiority on a similar argument – they were given > the > > light, and this light continues to radiate in their descendants. At a > > recital of the poetry of the radical Sufi Waris Shah held each year in > > Lahore, the descendents of Iman Bari Sarkar (a Pir) enter the arena to be > > received with awe and sought for blessings by the crowd. The recital > stops > > and they are escorted to the front and seated. All eyes are on these holy > > men who are not only descendents of a Pir but also Syeds – thus, doubly > > blessed with ‘light’! And then they begin expounding their ideology: “We > the > > Syeds get different treatment from God Almighty, for our good deeds we > get > > double the reward compared to ‘murids’ [non-Syeds] who only get single > > reward for a single good deed … but, it’s not easy to be a Syed … [he > > laughs] … we have to suffer double the punishment for our any wrong deeds > > whereas you [non-Syeds] get only single punishment for a single > > wrong deed!” > > > > There you have it! Our holy man explains why he has a Land Cruiser jeep > and > > “non-Syeds” have donkey carts. He explains why most Pakistanis are living > in > > poverty while he and his Syeds and Pirs are lapping it up in luxury. > > > > Contemporary Sufism is the ideology of Sindh’s landlords. It is the > > ideology that is used to uphold their wealth and despotism, and keeps > > millions in serfdom. A similar pattern is repeated throughout Pakistan. > > Given the lack of proportional representation and the vast inequality in > > power in each district between Pirs and the rest, it is almost always the > > case that elections flood parliament with Pirs/Syeds/landlords. The > current > > Pakistani Prime Minister (Syed Yousaf Raza Gilani) and Foreign Minister > > (Makhdoom Shah Mehmood Qureshi) are examples. Both have the claim of > being > > descended from Holy Pirs as the basis of their wealth and distinction. As > a > > result, we cannot expect parliament to challenge inequity and injustice > in > > Pakistan. > > > > Parliamentarians know that lack of education, coupled with the > obscurantism > > of contemporary Sufism, sustains their power. Like the British before > them, > > the Americans don’t care about Pakistan’s growing multitude of serfs and > the > > underclass, they don’t care whether the Prime Minister and the Foreign > > Minister of Pakistan are deeply rooted in the cause of inequity and > > injustice in the country and part of the promotion of a system of > starvation > > – a Sufism that tells people to take a blessing instead of demanding > food, > > education, justice and liberty. Like the British, they will fund whoever > > furthers their interests. We, however, must care. > > > > This is an article by Qalandar Bux Memon, editor of Naked Punch, from the > > The Samosa, a new UK-based politics, culture and arts journal, > campaigning > > blog and website. > > > > > > > > > > > > var href = document.location.href; > > href = href.substring(0,href.indexOf("?")); > > document.write(href); > > > > > > > http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/pakistan/03-the-bad-sufi-ss-02 > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > From yasir.media at gmail.com Tue May 4 00:39:02 2010 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?eWFzaXIgftmK2Kcg2LPYsQ==?=) Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 00:09:02 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Yousuf & Manmohan In-Reply-To: <437744.47894.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <437744.47894.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Kshmendra Kaul : > Dear Yasir > > Yes, Buddhist Heritage of Pakistan is being spoken about and worked upon. > It is treated as being distinct from Hindu Heritage. There are 2 > other reasons. One, the great potential of Buddhist-Tourism. Second, > (devious as ever Pakistan) to establish a connection with the > Buddhist-Dalits of India. > > in pakistan their is a peculiar mix of budhist and hindu, and then it also gets mixed up with muslim pirs and shrines, some of whom i am sure were hindu sites before. so their are many hindu-muslim mixed figures of saints, both sindh and punjab I am sure anyone would like to visit taxasila or the silk route trail ... in the north it is strongly buddhist. closer to sindh it is not. there are many old temples and sites, but hindu muslim, jain and british , all are falling apart beause the govt cant take of them. we sometimes work with the archaeology dept and are very interested in preserving all of this invaluable common heritage, as, too put it mildly, its disappearing through neglect and corruption, or simply lack of attention. imagine, one tribal sardar attacks and detroys 7000 year old relics from mehergarh, because the sardar on whose land the dig was, was getting too much attention. so we ve got other problems too worry about. you dont have to add the conspiracy bit. that's too isi, and not relevant here, even if true. Hindu Heritage of Pakistan being promoted? You must be joking. Could you > give some significant examples comparable with the promoting of the Buddhist > Heritage? > > our own group Mauj Collective made a documentary on heritage sites includinga temple on the sea on manora island, this was funded by Goethe and shown in many places. we worked withe archaeology dept of Sindh on this. One of our members is doing work in abbotabad on saving the paintings in mountains from a dam that is being made. theres also the temples and different living hindu communities of karachi, which are documented in Rumana Husain's book on karachi - which is getting wide publicity. then there are people who are working against the blashphemy laws___ so this list is also not small - it is significant and will become bigger. Nothing wrong with "using religion to promote love". That is perhaps the > only useful aspect of "Religions". > > But, you 'promote love' where there is reciprocity. India would be idiotic > to repose such trust in Pakistan until Pakistan continues to teach hate > against India and propagate it by both word and action. > sounds like one hand clapping > > Kshmendra > > > --- On *Sun, 5/2/10, yasir ~يا سر * wrote: > > > From: yasir ~يا سر > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Yousuf & Manmohan > > To: "Sarai Reader-list" > Date: Sunday, May 2, 2010, 12:09 AM > > dont worry there are enough people in Pakistan to remind other pakistanis > of > the hindu and buddhist heritage. hope you will not overlook that. using > religion to promote love - whats wrong with that ! ? > > y > > > On Sat, May 1, 2010 at 3:32 PM, Kshmendra Kaul > >wrote: > > > Touting religion to promote love is a short step away from using religion > > to propagate hate. No better example of the latter than the Pakistani > > Nation. > > > > Manmohan Singh, as the Prime Minister of a supposedly secular India, has > no > > business to use 'religion' for managing India's External Affairs. > > > > Wonder why Manmohan Singh did not go the full distance and remind > > Pakistan's PM and others in the SARC summit, of the "Hindu Heritage" > > of Pakistanis. > > > > Kshmendra > > > > --- On *Thu, 4/29/10, yasir ~يا سر >* > wrote: > > > > > > From: yasir ~يا سر > > > > Subject: [Reader-list] Yousuf & Manmohan > > To: "Sarai Reader-list" > > > > Date: Thursday, April 29, 2010, 11:06 PM > > > > Historic walk of two prime ministers > > *Gilani’s ancestors helped build Golden Temple > > * > > http://www.thenews.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=28551 > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > < > http://us.mc572.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=reader-list-request at sarai.net>with > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Tue May 4 01:07:06 2010 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 20:37:06 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] National Identity Cards: View from UK Message-ID: Dear All, The issue of national ID cards seems to have charged up the political environment in the run up to the UK general election. Please follow the link below to have a look at what the opposition stand is: http://tahaz.wordpress.com/2010/05/03/national-id-card-view-from-england/ Warm regards Taha From yasir.media at gmail.com Tue May 4 01:36:56 2010 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?eWFzaXIgftmK2Kcg2LPYsQ==?=) Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 01:06:56 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] 140,000 troops in FATA In-Reply-To: References: <507310.13141.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: tough choices Elders’ absence hinders army goals in northwest /pk http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/pakistan/04-elders-northwest-qs-06 On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 7:51 PM, yasir ~يا سر wrote: > no sorry you totally got that from an enemy perspective. please get this > right. > > if you ask us, we will tell you the following: > the people of pakistan are the real victim, when the govt of pakistan, the > pakistan army, sold itself to the united states, becoming a mercenary state > for them. the relation is completely one-sided. what development in real > terms have we seen, take any indicator. why are we worse off with many > systems existing and functioning back in the postpartition days woefully > nonexistent or malfunctional, let alone any new systems. the answer is quite > severe. we have a military budget which has to deal with india which is many > itimes its size and (had been) eadger to destabilize it after breaking it up > into 2 in 1971, and which had earlier eaten up hyderabad and kashmir. so we > are now doomed to military spending which comes anyway from the US, leaving > little in the way of major public projects which could have benefited people > at large. Government spending was eaten by the military. if you imagine what > kind of a present society we could have been if we had not stuck to this > stupid military buildup (you can eveluate your own side). so the war on > terror is just another day, another cloud. but it follows the covert US > action in Afghanistan against the Soviets using Afghanis and Pakistanis then > disappearing for a decade and showing up again this time because the > militancy the americans had started, charlie wilson's war starring tom > cruise, could not be put out and took the wtc with it. sorry there is no > conspiracy here. we are getting the blame 'for not doing enough' and then we > have to deal with your pearls of wisdom strewn from across the border. > > so dear KK, we are not asking for blood money. we are saying: having > destroyed the region, you better build it up now, to what it should be like. > i think this is not only possible, but also a moral responsility of the US > in no uncertain terms. and we dont trust them either because of this > history. > > best > > y > > > > > > On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 5:50 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > >> USA also pays "Blood Money" to Pakistan which Pakistan accepts very >> gratefully. >> >> In fact there is a constant clamour by many in Pakistan : "You are not >> paying us enough!!!! We want more!!!! We want more!!!!" >> >> --- On *Mon, 5/3/10, yasir ~يا سر * wrote: >> >> >> From: yasir ~يا سر >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] 140,000 troops in FATA >> To: "Sarai Reader-list" >> Date: Monday, May 3, 2010, 1:53 PM >> >> one needs to add much salt here: >> >> >> - reporters are not allowed, you only get the official army version >> - civilian casualties are 'normal', very high and not reported, >> including >> extra judicial killings and right violations >> - the number of internally displaced people is huge, frequently not >> taken >> care of by anyone let alone by govt >> - the motivation in no small measure comes from the US pressuring the >> PK >> army to show that action is being taken, which frequently leads to >> unstable >> conditions, rather than working with local actors with a long term >> view, >> while dealing with a guerrilla like militancy. >> >> >> >> On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 11:30 AM, S. Jabbar > >> wrote: >> >> > >> > FRONT-PAGE >> > ŒPakistan has moved 100,000 troops from eastern border¹ >> > >> > By Our Correspondent >> > >> > Friday, 30 Apr, 2010 | 01:38 AM PST | >> > >> > >> > WASHINGTON: Pakistan has deployed 140,000 troops in Fata, moving at >> least >> > 100,000 soldiers from the Indian border to back up its Œunprecedented¹ >> > crackdown on militants along the Afghan border, says a Pentagon report. >> > >> > In its mandatory report to the US Congress on the situation in the >> > Pakistan-Afghan region, the Pentagon notes that the deployment is the >> > biggest in the country¹s history on the western border. >> > >> > ³This unprecedented deployment and thinning of the lines against India >> > indicates that Islamabad has acknowledged its domestic insurgent >> threat.² >> > >> > The Pentagon also acknowledges that Pakistani military operations in the >> > tribal regions have had an impact across the border, placing a ³high >> degree >> > of pressure on enemy forces and reduced insurgent safe haven² in eastern >> > Afghanistan. >> > >> > The Pentagon informs Congress that recent arrests by Pakistan of Afghan >> > Taliban leaders, including the group¹s No. 2, Mullah Abdul Ghani >> Baradar, >> > have ³increased insurgent leaders¹ concern over the security of their >> safe >> > havens² and created ³financial and logistical² problems for them. >> > >> > This assessment contrasts sharply with the Afghan claim ‹ backed by >> India ‹ >> > that the arrests have weakened Kabul¹s efforts to seek a negotiated >> > settlement with the Taliban leadership. >> > >> > The report quotes a senior US defence official as saying that the >> arrests >> > in >> > Pakistan produced ³a lot of concerned chatter² among Taliban >> sympathisers >> > in >> > Afghanistan, but there¹s no indication of ³a leadership crisis in the >> > Taliban². >> > >> > The Pentagon notes that so far the crackdown in Pakistan is focused >> almost >> > exclusively on internal threats and that¹s why it¹s not having any >> > ³significant impact on the Afghan insurgency in the short term². >> > >> > But the crackdown ³offers opportunities in coming months to have a >> greater >> > impact on the conflict in Afghanistan depending on how PAKMIL (Pakistani >> > military) operations evolve,² the report adds. >> > >> > ³Pakistan has suffered attacks from terrorists in response to its >> > successful >> > operations. These attacks include mass casualty events in Mingora, South >> > Waziristan agency close to clearing operations as well as in Lahore, far >> > away from the fighting. ³While these attacks do not appear to have >> shaken >> > Pakistan¹s commitment, they do demonstrate, for the time being, >> insurgent >> > ability to continue attacks despite successful Pakistani operations,² >> the >> > report warns. >> > >> > >> > >> http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/ >> > >> > >> front-page/pakistan-has-moved-100,000-troops-from-indian-border-pentagon-040< >> http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/%0Afront-page/pakistan-has-moved-100,000-troops-from-indian-border-pentagon-040 >> > >> >> > >> > Copyright © 2010 - Dawn Media Group >> > >> > >> > >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> > From yasir.media at gmail.com Tue May 4 01:38:29 2010 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?eWFzaXIgftmK2Kcg2LPYsQ==?=) Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 01:08:29 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Ode to Karachi Message-ID: http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/in-paper-magazine/books-and-authors/ode-to-karachi-720 review of karachiwala by rumana husain From rahul_capri at yahoo.com Tue May 4 07:14:23 2010 From: rahul_capri at yahoo.com (Rahul Asthana) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 18:44:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] 140,000 troops in FATA In-Reply-To: References: <507310.13141.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <540667.20224.qm@web53605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Yasir, I agree that People of Pakistan are the real victim. But other than that I would like to point a few things in your narrative. Pakistan already had plans in Afghanistan and controlled some Taliban before the Russian invasion. America bought the army and financed the Taliban at that time. Army retained control and still continues it. The relation is one sided maybe from your perspective, not from America's. It paid your generals. If anyone has moral responsibilities to Pakistan's people , its your army.The army plays the double game of bombing NWFP and letting the Taliban operate. Anyway, you probably know all this. Same in case of 1971. India did attack and caused the vivisection but primary responsibility is still of the Army when it was killing bengalis by the thousands and refugees were pouring in India. Its an irony that the army uses a vicious circle to control you -initiate trouble and then when the blow back comes strengthen the grip on the country- and you still blame India and America.Do you really believe India gobbled up Hyderabad and Kashmir? Please read HV Hodsons book The Great Divide. Jinnah himself did not agree to Mount Battens idea that Hindu majority states join India and Muslim majority Pakistan, because he wanted Hyderabad and thought that Kashmir would fall in his lap anyway and in the end ended up losing both. If you want I can provide quotations from the book. ----- Original Message ---- From: yasir ~يا سر To: Sarai Reader-list Sent: Mon, May 3, 2010 4:06:56 P Subject: Re: [Reader-list] 140,000 troops in FATA tough choices Elders’ absence hinders army goals in northwest /pk http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/pakistan/04-elders-northwest-qs-06 On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 7:51 PM, yasir ~يا سر wrote: > no sorry you totally got that from an enemy perspective. please get this > right. > > if you ask us, we will tell you the following: > the people of pakistan are the real victim, when the govt of pakistan, the > pakistan army, sold itself to the united states, becoming a mercenary state > for them. the relation is completely one-sided. what development in real > terms have we seen, take any indicator. why are we worse off with many > systems existing and functioning back in the postpartition days woefully > nonexistent or malfunctional, let alone any new systems. the answer is quite > severe. we have a military budget which has to deal with india which is many > itimes its size and (had been) eadger to destabilize it after breaking it up > into 2 in 1971, and which had earlier eaten up hyderabad and kashmir. so we > are now doomed to military spending which comes anyway from the US, leaving > little in the way of major public projects which could have benefited people > at large. Government spending was eaten by the military. if you imagine what > kind of a present society we could have been if we had not stuck to this > stupid military buildup (you can eveluate your own side). so the war on > terror is just another day, another cloud. but it follows the covert US > action in Afghanistan against the Soviets using Afghanis and Pakistanis then > disappearing for a decade and showing up again this time because the > militancy the americans had started, charlie wilson's war starring tom > cruise, could not be put out and took the wtc with it. sorry there is no > conspiracy here. we are getting the blame 'for not doing enough' and then we > have to deal with your pearls of wisdom strewn from across the border. > > so dear KK, we are not asking for blood money. we are saying: having > destroyed the region, you better build it up now, to what it should be like. > i think this is not only possible, but also a moral responsility of the US > in no uncertain terms. and we dont trust them either because of this > history. > > best > > y > > > > > > On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 5:50 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > >> USA also pays "Blood Money" to Pakistan which Pakistan accepts very >> gratefully. >> >> In fact there is a constant clamour by many in Pakistan : "You are not >> paying us enough!!!! We want more!!!! We want more!!!!" >> >> --- On *Mon, 5/3/10, yasir ~يا سر * wrote: >> >> >> From: yasir ~يا سر >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] 140,000 troops in FATA >> To: "Sarai Reader-list" >> Date: Monday, May 3, 2010, 1:53 PM >> >> one needs to add much salt here: >> >> >> - reporters are not allowed, you only get the official army version >> - civilian casualties are 'normal', very high and not reported, >> including >> extra judicial killings and right violations >> - the number of internally displaced people is huge, frequently not >> taken >> care of by anyone let alone by govt >> - the motivation in no small measure comes from the US pressuring the >> PK >> army to show that action is being taken, which frequently leads to >> unstable >> conditions, rather than working with local actors with a long term >> view, >> while dealing with a guerrilla like militancy. >> >> >> >> On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 11:30 AM, S. Jabbar > >> wrote: >> >> > >> > FRONT-PAGE >> > ŒPakistan has moved 100,000 troops from eastern border¹ >> > >> > By Our Correspondent >> > >> > Friday, 30 Apr, 2010 | 01:38 AM PST | >> > >> > >> > WASHINGTON: Pakistan has deployed 140,000 troops in Fata, moving at >> least >> > 100,000 soldiers from the Indian border to back up its Œunprecedented¹ >> > crackdown on militants along the Afghan border, says a Pentagon report. >> > >> > In its mandatory report to the US Congress on the situation in the >> > Pakistan-Afghan region, the Pentagon notes that the deployment is the >> > biggest in the country¹s history on the western border. >> > >> > ³This unprecedented deployment and thinning of the lines against India >> > indicates that Islamabad has acknowledged its domestic insurgent >> threat.² >> > >> > The Pentagon also acknowledges that Pakistani military operations in the >> > tribal regions have had an impact across the border, placing a ³high >> degree >> > of pressure on enemy forces and reduced insurgent safe haven² in eastern >> > Afghanistan. >> > >> > The Pentagon informs Congress that recent arrests by Pakistan of Afghan >> > Taliban leaders, including the group¹s No. 2, Mullah Abdul Ghani >> Baradar, >> > have ³increased insurgent leaders¹ concern over the security of their >> safe >> > havens² and created ³financial and logistical² problems for them. >> > >> > This assessment contrasts sharply with the Afghan claim ‹ backed by >> India ‹ >> > that the arrests have weakened Kabul¹s efforts to seek a negotiated >> > settlement with the Taliban leadership. >> > >> > The report quotes a senior US defence official as saying that the >> arrests >> > in >> > Pakistan produced ³a lot of concerned chatter² among Taliban >> sympathisers >> > in >> > Afghanistan, but there¹s no indication of ³a leadership crisis in the >> > Taliban². >> > >> > The Pentagon notes that so far the crackdown in Pakistan is focused >> almost >> > exclusively on internal threats and that¹s why it¹s not having any >> > ³significant impact on the Afghan insurgency in the short term². >> > >> > But the crackdown ³offers opportunities in coming months to have a >> greater >> > impact on the conflict in Afghanistan depending on how PAKMIL (Pakistani >> > military) operations evolve,² the report adds. >> > >> > ³Pakistan has suffered attacks from terrorists in response to its >> > successful >> > operations. These attacks include mass casualty events in Mingora, South >> > Waziristan agency close to clearing operations as well as in Lahore, far >> > away from the fighting. ³While these attacks do not appear to have >> shaken >> > Pakistan¹s commitment, they do demonstrate, for the time being, >> insurgent >> > ability to continue attacks despite successful Pakistani operations,² >> the >> > report warns. >> > >> > >> > >> http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/ >> > >> > >> front-page/pakistan-has-moved-100,000-troops-from-indian-border-pentagon-040< >> http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/%0Afront-page/pakistan-has-moved-100,000-troops-from-indian-border-pentagon-040 >> > >> >> > >> > Copyright © 2010 - Dawn Media Group >> > >> > >> > >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From shuddha at sarai.net Tue May 4 10:09:40 2010 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 10:09:40 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] JKCCS Appeal to United Jehad Council, Indian Army and Police References: <925595.97686.qm@web31807.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <04C61F6C-96CF-4485-8A71-D0C250F3A07C@sarai.net> Dear all, Please find below and appeal from the Jammu and Kashmir Coalition of Civil Society, appealing impartially to the leadership of the United Jehad Council (who claim to represent a significant section of the insurgents in Jammu and Kashmir) and the leadership political- administrative, police, military and paramilitary structures that are operational in the part of the state of Jammu and Kashmir administered by India. The appeal in a sense asks for guarantees that civilians and unarmed people in general will not be targetted by either party. I hope that such initiatives gain strength, not only in Jammu and Kashmir, but in other parts of our troubled subcontinent. best Shuddha --------------------- 3rd May, 2010 Press Release On Friday 30th April, Jammu and Kashmir Coalition of Civil Society (JKCCS) sent an appeal for the observance of International Humanitarian Law in Jammu and Kashmir to: 1. Chief Minister and Chairman of Unified High Command Mr. Omar Abdullah, 2. Chairman United Jehad Council, Mr. Syed Sallahudin, 3. Core Commander, Northern Command of Indian Army, Lt. Gen BS JASWAL 4. Director General, Jammu and Kashmir Police, Mr. Kuldeep Khoda 5. I. G.P. CRPF, Mr. P.V.K. Reddy We as a civil society organisation feel duty-bound to remind the state as well as non-state actors of their moral/legal/religious obligations in the context of continuing armed conflict, about their responsibilities in protecting civilian lives, property and civil rights. JKCCS has requested both state and non-state combatants to consider the below attached appeal and make public commitment in this regard besides taking necessary safeguards in adhering to the basic principles of International Humanitarian Law in Jammu and Kashmir. So far JKCCS has not received any response from any side regarding this appeal. We today are making this appeal public in order to build public opinion and solicit public response to our concerns from both state and non-state combatants. We believe the positive response from the state and non-state combatants regarding our appeal will go a long way in increasing an atmosphere of security for the civilian lives, dignity and property in Jammu and Kashmir. President Ad. Parvez Imroz APPEAL FOR THE OBSERVANCE OF INTERNATIONAL HUMANITARIAN LAW IN JAMMU AND KASHMIR As a state, India is signatory to Geneva Conventions and other International humanitarian instruments, which regulate conduct of combat in all conflict situations wherein tensions heighten to direct hostilities among states or between state and certain non-state actors/groups. Being signatory to Geneva Conventions brings in its wake various moral/legal checks upon states in their conduct of combat operations particularly when the sites of hostilities involve/ and is interspersed with huge civilian spaces. Jammu and Kashmir has been the main site of hostilities particularly during the last two decades, between Indian state actors represented by its personnel in military/para-military/Police against armed militants belonging to various outfits working under an alliance of United Jehad Council (UJC). UJC in the year 2005 adopted and publicized its Code of Conduct which was supposed to be binding on all the armed militant organizations and their cadres operating in Jammu and Kashmir. This Code of Conduct was a unilateral commitment of UJC to abide by some of the basic principles of International Humanitarian Law. Later in October 2007 UJC, while signing the Unilateral Declaration on the Ban of use of landmines also reiterated its commitment to abide by all four covenants of Geneva Conventions. State of India, through its signing of various International humanitarian instruments and United Jehad Council (also its constituents) through their unilateral declarations, Code of Conduct and various public statements have been reiterating their position vis-à-vis the loss of civilian lives and property and talking about their mechanisms for ensuring protection of civilian life and property. However, commitments made by the state of India, besides her promises, from time to time has seen very little or no enforcement on ground during the heightened phase of conflict for the last two decades particularly with respect to the treatment meted out to civilian population. Despite all the public commitments people of Jammu and Kashmir continue to witness loss of civilian lives, destruction of their property and denial of civil and political rights. Also, the promises of non-state actors/organizations/groups hold little water in terms of their realization on ground. Civilian spaces continue to remain a contested site of direct hostilities between non- state and the state actors, which result in loss of precious lives, torture and humiliation of civilian populations. There have been consistent media reports streaming in for the last few months about ‘some looming prospect of escalation in the direct hostilities between the state and non-state forces’. Amid the obvious political simmer, and reported ‘prospect of hot summer’ coupled with many recent ‘civilian’ killings, we as a civil society organisation feel duty-bound to remind the state as well as non-state actors of their moral/legal/religious obligations towards people. We would like to remind the State of India and the leadership of United Jehad Council in the context of continuing armed conflict, about their responsibilities in protecting civilian lives, property and civil rights. We call upon all the combatants whether state or non-state to abide by the following minimum and basic principles derived from International Humanitarian Law and other universally accepted principles: During operations combatants must not target civilian objects, civilians and those not directly participating in armed hostilities.[1] During military operations, constant care must be taken to spare civilian population, civilians and civilian objects.[2] In order to avoid civilian casualties, military installations in and around population centers must not be created. Attacks against such military objectives which are expected to cause disproportionate civilian casualties and damage must not be launched.[3] During and after the combat operations wounded and sick must be collected and cared for.[4] Civilians must not be taken hostage for any reason or/and in any circumstances.[5] During operations when enemy fighters are taken prisoners, they must be treated humanely; they must not be tortured, killed or disappeared in custody.[6] The dead must be respected and their bodies not mutilated. When mortal remains are unidentified, every effort must be made to preserve evidence that could lead to their eventual identification. Graves should be marked. Where the identity of a dead person is known (whether friend or enemy), next of the kin should be promptly informed.[7] Ambulances, medical personnel and fire fighting personnel who take no active part in hostilities must not be attacked, nor obstructed from performing their humanitarian duties.[8] Places of worship and those taking refuge in them must not be attacked in any circumstances.[9] Minorities, women, children, older people and disabled should always be respected and no attempts should be made to infringe upon their rights, dignity and safety.[10] Vehicles and buildings bearing emblems of the Red Cross and the Red Crescent should be respected. These emblems must not be used to deceive enemy during hostilities. [11] [1] See article 3 common to the four Geneva Conventions of 1949. See also articles 48 and 51.2 of Additional Protocol I of 1977. See also Al-Quran 2:190 [2] See article 57.1 of Additional Protocol I of 1977. [3] See article 51.4, 51.5 (b) and 57.2 (a) iii of additional protocol I of 1977. [4] See article 3 common to the four Geneva Conventions of 1949. [5] See articles 3 common to the four Geneva Conventions of 1949. [6] See article 3 common to the four Geneva Conventions of 1949. See Also article 13 and 17 of Geneva Convention III of 1949. Also see Al- Quran 76:8 [7] See article 17 of Geneva Convention I of 1949 and article 34 of Additional Protocol I. [8] See articles 12-18 of Additional Protocol I of 1977. [9]See Hadith, [10] See Hadith (Muslim Book 019, Number 4320) [11] See articles 37, 38 and 85.3 (f) of Additional Protocol I of 1977. Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From sonia.jabbar at gmail.com Tue May 4 10:55:46 2010 From: sonia.jabbar at gmail.com (S. Jabbar) Date: Tue, 04 May 2010 10:55:46 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] JKCCS Appeal to United Jehad Council, Indian Army and Police In-Reply-To: <04C61F6C-96CF-4485-8A71-D0C250F3A07C@sarai.net> Message-ID: Bravo! Excellent effort. > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 10:09:40 +0530 > To: sarai-list list > Subject: [Reader-list] JKCCS Appeal to United Jehad Council, Indian Army and > Police > > Dear all, Please find below and appeal from the Jammu and Kashmir Coalition > of Civil Society, appealing impartially to the leadership of the United > Jehad Council (who claim to represent a significant section of the > insurgents in Jammu and Kashmir) and the leadership political- > administrative, police, military and paramilitary structures that are > operational in the part of the state of Jammu and Kashmir administered by > India. The appeal in a sense asks for guarantees that civilians and unarmed > people in general will not be targetted by either party. I hope that such > initiatives gain strength, not only in Jammu and Kashmir, but in other parts > of our troubled subcontinent. best Shuddha --------------------- 3rd May, > 2010 Press Release On Friday 30th April, Jammu and Kashmir Coalition of Civil > Society (JKCCS) sent an appeal for the observance of International > Humanitarian Law in Jammu and Kashmir to: 1. Chief Minister and > Chairman of Unified High Command Mr. Omar Abdullah, 2. Chairman United > Jehad Council, Mr. Syed Sallahudin, 3. Core Commander, Northern Command > of Indian Army, Lt. Gen BS JASWAL 4. Director General, Jammu and > Kashmir Police, Mr. Kuldeep Khoda 5. I. G.P. CRPF, Mr. P.V.K. Reddy We > as a civil society organisation feel duty-bound to remind the state as well > as non-state actors of their moral/legal/religious obligations in the > context of continuing armed conflict, about their responsibilities in > protecting civilian lives, property and civil rights. JKCCS has requested > both state and non-state combatants to consider the below attached appeal > and make public commitment in this regard besides taking necessary > safeguards in adhering to the basic principles of International Humanitarian > Law in Jammu and Kashmir. So far JKCCS has not received any response from any > side regarding this appeal. We today are making this appeal public in order > to build public opinion and solicit public response to our concerns from > both state and non-state combatants. We believe the positive response from > the state and non-state combatants regarding our appeal will go a long way > in increasing an atmosphere of security for the civilian lives, dignity and > property in Jammu and Kashmir. President Ad. Parvez Imroz APPEAL FOR THE > OBSERVANCE OF INTERNATIONAL HUMANITARIAN LAW IN JAMMU AND KASHMIR As a > state, India is signatory to Geneva Conventions and other International > humanitarian instruments, which regulate conduct of combat in all conflict > situations wherein tensions heighten to direct hostilities among states or > between state and certain non-state actors/groups. Being signatory to > Geneva Conventions brings in its wake various moral/legal checks upon states > in their conduct of combat operations particularly when the sites of > hostilities involve/ and is interspersed with huge civilian spaces. Jammu > and Kashmir has been the main site of hostilities particularly during the > last two decades, between Indian state actors represented by its personnel > in military/para-military/Police against armed militants belonging to > various outfits working under an alliance of United Jehad Council > (UJC). UJC in the year 2005 adopted and publicized its Code of Conduct which > was supposed to be binding on all the armed militant organizations and > their cadres operating in Jammu and Kashmir. This Code of Conduct was a > unilateral commitment of UJC to abide by some of the basic principles of > International Humanitarian Law. Later in October 2007 UJC, while signing the > Unilateral Declaration on the Ban of use of landmines also reiterated its > commitment to abide by all four covenants of Geneva Conventions. State of > India, through its signing of various International humanitarian instruments > and United Jehad Council (also its constituents) through their unilateral > declarations, Code of Conduct and various public statements have been > reiterating their position vis-à-vis the loss of civilian lives and property > and talking about their mechanisms for ensuring protection of civilian life > and property. However, commitments made by the state of India, besides her > promises, from time to time has seen very little or no enforcement on > ground during the heightened phase of conflict for the last two decades > particularly with respect to the treatment meted out to civilian population. > Despite all the public commitments people of Jammu and Kashmir continue to > witness loss of civilian lives, destruction of their property and denial of > civil and political rights. Also, the promises of non-state > actors/organizations/groups hold little water in terms of their realization > on ground. Civilian spaces continue to remain a contested site of direct > hostilities between non- state and the state actors, which result in loss of > precious lives, torture and humiliation of civilian populations. There have > been consistent media reports streaming in for the last few months about > Œsome looming prospect of escalation in the direct hostilities between the > state and non-state forces¹. Amid the obvious political simmer, and reported > Œprospect of hot summer¹ coupled with many recent Œcivilian¹ killings, we as > a civil society organisation feel duty-bound to remind the state as well as > non-state actors of their moral/legal/religious obligations towards > people. We would like to remind the State of India and the leadership of > United Jehad Council in the context of continuing armed conflict, about > their responsibilities in protecting civilian lives, property and civil > rights. We call upon all the combatants whether state or non-state to abide > by the following minimum and basic principles derived from International > Humanitarian Law and other universally accepted principles: During > operations combatants must not target civilian objects, civilians and those > not directly participating in armed hostilities.[1] During military > operations, constant care must be taken to spare civilian population, > civilians and civilian objects.[2] In order to avoid civilian casualties, > military installations in and around population centers must not be created. > Attacks against such military objectives which are expected to cause > disproportionate civilian casualties and damage must not be > launched.[3] During and after the combat operations wounded and sick must > be collected and cared for.[4] Civilians must not be taken hostage for > any reason or/and in any circumstances.[5] During operations when enemy > fighters are taken prisoners, they must be treated humanely; they must not > be tortured, killed or disappeared in custody.[6] The dead must be > respected and their bodies not mutilated. When mortal remains are > unidentified, every effort must be made to preserve evidence that could lead > to their eventual identification. Graves should be marked. Where the > identity of a dead person is known (whether friend or enemy), next of the > kin should be promptly informed.[7] Ambulances, medical personnel and > fire fighting personnel who take no active part in hostilities must not be > attacked, nor obstructed from performing their humanitarian > duties.[8] Places of worship and those taking refuge in them must not be > attacked in any circumstances.[9] Minorities, women, children, older > people and disabled should always be respected and no attempts should be > made to infringe upon their rights, dignity and safety.[10] Vehicles and > buildings bearing emblems of the Red Cross and the Red Crescent should be > respected. These emblems must not be used to deceive enemy during > hostilities. [11] [1] See article 3 common to the four Geneva Conventions of > 1949. See also articles 48 and 51.2 of Additional Protocol I of 1977. See > also Al-Quran 2:190 [2] See article 57.1 of Additional Protocol I of > 1977. [3] See article 51.4, 51.5 (b) and 57.2 (a) iii of additional protocol > I of 1977. [4] See article 3 common to the four Geneva Conventions of > 1949. [5] See articles 3 common to the four Geneva Conventions of 1949. [6] > See article 3 common to the four Geneva Conventions of 1949. See Also > article 13 and 17 of Geneva Convention III of 1949. Also see Al- Quran > 76:8 [7] See article 17 of Geneva Convention I of 1949 and article 34 of > Additional Protocol I. [8] See articles 12-18 of Additional Protocol I of > 1977. [9]See Hadith, [10] See Hadith (Muslim Book 019, Number 4320) [11] See > articles 37, 38 and 85.3 (f) of Additional Protocol I of 1977. Shuddhabrata > Sengupta The Sarai Programme at > CSDS shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net ___________ > ______________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media > and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To > unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List > archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From jeebesh at sarai.net Tue May 4 11:23:30 2010 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh) Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 11:23:30 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] A Policy? Rubbish Message-ID: <8347401D-0BB9-4984-9C7B-A527A168AF9B@sarai.net> Hindustan Times, May 4, 2010 Op Ed A Policy? Rubbish There is no data on how much waste is produced in India and how it is disposed. The Cobolt 60 incident was waiting to happen. Customs data reveals imports of even prohibited wastes like clinical waste, incineration ash, municipal waste and e-waste, all of which exceed 50 lakh tonnes annually writes RAVI AGARWAL The Cobalt-60 radiation tragedy at Mayapuri in Delhi has unearthed many skeletons, which some seem to be desperate to hide. There is already a life lost, and maybe others irrevocably damaged, while everyone is busy hurling accusations at each other. This is a typical response. Instead, we need to examine the systemic problems that this incident has indicated. While those who were negligent must be punished, there are many questions that need to be answered. These relate to why this radioactive waste source was not on the regulatory radar. It is no secret that the nuclear establishment works in a garb of secrecy, and information is very restricted. However, where public health is concerned, more assurance is needed. It has also become evident that our ports are porous to all kinds of waste, and there are no scanners to detect what comes in, nuclear or otherwise. Alongside, there seems to be no mechanism to track the illegal move- ment of radioactive materials through our transport sys- tems. The dealers at the scrapyards have little information on how to detect such waste, or what to do in case of an accident. At the very least this inci- dent calls for re-evaluating the tracking and monitoring of such disused radioactive materials and improving public communication. Moreover, it is impor- tant to understand the larger issue of hazardous waste. It is well-known that we are one of the largest waste- importing economies in the world. All types of wastes are imported into India, in the garb of cheap raw materials, including hazardous, toxic wastes. Waste recyclers abroad take pride in sending used plastics and electronics to India, believing they are doing us a favour. Data released by the Customs department reveal imports of even prohibited wastes like clinical waste, incineration ash, municipal waste and e-waste, all of which exceed 50 lakh tonnes annually. This is common knowledge in the recycling markets of Delhi, Mumbai and Chennai. The government, however, says it has no idea about this. On the contrary, environment ministry officials have publicly stated that they wish to make India the waste recycling capital of the world. Real concerns about the inherent toxicity in the waste contaminating our water and land, or the disastrous implications of becoming a `waste economy,' are not being addressed. The manufacturing sector in India is growing at over 8 per cent annually, making India one of the largest hubs of chemical, petrochemical and textile industries in the world. However, the government's manpower or budgets to track and monitor the disposal of waste from over 36,000 autho- rised industrial units and over 3 million small scale units, have not increased over the years. Look at the estimates of waste generation. According to the Comptroller and Auditor General's (CAG) report and other sources, over 7 million tonnes of industrial hazardous waste, 4 lakh tonnes of elec- tronic waste, 1.5 million tonnes of plastic waste, 1.7 lakh tonnes of medical waste, 48 million tonnes of municipal waste laced with mercury lamps, batteries and pesticides are generated in the country annually, in addition to the imports. These are conservative figures and growing. However, there is no official data on this, simply because there has never been any attempt to collect it. The impact is there for all to see. The Central Pollution Control Board has identified over 88 critically polluted industrial zones, most of which are clustered in the most-indus- trialised states like Gujarat and Maharashtra. Several of them are beyond repair. All of our 14 river systems are polluted. Groundwater in many places contains toxins like the deadly hexavalent chromium and heavy metals, and studies have shown contamination of crops through industrial effluents. Again there is no data or any study ever commis- sioned to identify the scale of such impact. The states have notified a set of hazardous waste laws over the past 10 years and built 25-odd hazardous waste dis- posal facilities after the Supreme Court directed them to do so. However, the CAG report lays bare the real ground sit- uation. It found that over 75 per cent of state bodies were not implementing these laws. In fact, there is no single responsible person anywhere in the government who is routinely monitoring the situation. Unfortunately, there is more attention given towards granting authorisations and licences for imports and clearances, rather than to develop a system of monitoring and accountability. Implementation is said to be India's Achilles heel. Is it really so? Implementation is left to the vagaries of the sys- tem, rather than any efforts made to enable it. For example, none of our waste laws demand implementation targets, or maintain a database about progress made, or have any accompanying plans about how the required infrastructure will be built. Public information about levels of compliance is also not available. With all this missing, lamenting the lack of implementation becomes merely a way of passing the buck. In hindsight, the Cobalt-60 incident may have been no accident, it may only have been waiting to happen. Ravi Agarwal is Director, Toxics Link The views expressed by the author are personal From aliens at dataone.in Tue May 4 12:14:02 2010 From: aliens at dataone.in (Bipin Trivedi) Date: Tue, 04 May 2010 12:14:02 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT In-Reply-To: <4E617495-31D5-4EF5-B1DF-57A158F52566@sarai.net> References: <000601caea8b$c3560a30$4a021e90$@in> <728CF378-2EB8-418C-88AB-B2E137F79AB2@sarai.net> <000b01caead4$663e5d90$32bb18b0$@in> <4E617495-31D5-4EF5-B1DF-57A158F52566@sarai.net> Message-ID: <000001caeb55$3456c610$9d045230$@in> Dear Shuddha, I am talking particularly Kasav case where he was proved guilty well before trial saw by whole world that was the point and not for any other in general. What you are talking in general is ok. My point raised to you for Kasav only. If you still believe if he is guilty fell sorry for that. Not at all satisfied by what you are trying to convince. Most of the criminals (not only terrorists) believes that they have not done anything wrong does not mean what they did is right. Sorry, to tell but with your explanation you are trying to convince that terrorists are right in their acts in the name justice in their eye. This is real sorry state of your thought. Thanks Bipin From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta [mailto:shuddha at sarai.net] Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 9:12 PM To: Bipin Trivedi Cc: sarai-list Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT Mr. Trivedi,  In any trial, there is the possibility that the defendent will be acquitted. Otherwise it would not be a trial. The guilt or innocence of Kasab, or of any defendent, in a legal sense, is not for you or for me to decide, it is for the judge. And the judge does so depending on the evidence that is presented to him by the advocates who speak for the prosecution and for the defence. If the evidence suggests guilt to the judge, no doubt he will pronounce him guilty. Then we can argue over whether or not the judge delivered a fair verdict. But until such time as the judge pronounces his sentence, the only thing we can begin to speak of his fate is in the terms of  - 'if' he is guilty.  I oppose capital punishment, no matter who is to be hanged, and for what crime, for the same reason which makes me oppose the decision of someone like Kasab (if he is indeed found guilty) to be an executioner in the streets of Bombay on 26.11.2008. If Kasab is proven to be the killer that the prosecution says he is, then no doubt part of his motivation will be seen to be his own twisted notion of justice. He too will then justify his conduct, not on the grounds of lowly self defence ( a ground on which i can justify violence) but  on the grounds of his sense of having to avenge what he pereceives terrible wrongs. Just as you want the state to do by killing him. What then, is the difference between his sense of justice and yours?  Finally, I simply do not want to see the taxes I pay to the state being used to commit pre-meditated slaughter.  I hope that gives you a sense of why I do not feel the need to say sorry for what I feel.  best Shuddha On 03-May-10, at 8:52 PM, Bipin Trivedi wrote: If he is guilty? Do you have any doubt about brutal terror act and guilt of Kasav? It is surprising statement and feel sorry for your thought. For his guilt, no judge analysis is required and even small children also can understand for his brutal act and guilt.   You prefer life imprisonment for whom? Who killed Indian and other people and the same Indian tax payers’ money to spent for his lifelong imprisonment. Again feel sorry for your thought.     From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta [mailto:shuddha at sarai.net]  Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 12:14 PM To: Bipin Trivedi Cc: sarai-list Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT   if he is found guilty, then life imprisonment, based on the quantum of his crimes. I remain opposed to the awarding of capital punishment under any circumstances.      On 03-May-10, at 12:12 PM, Bipin Trivedi wrote: TODAY IS THE DAY OF AJMAL KASAV VERDICT.        What do you think, what should be the punishment for him?       _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list  List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>   Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net   Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From yasir.media at gmail.com Tue May 4 12:29:35 2010 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?eWFzaXIgftmK2Kcg2LPYsQ==?=) Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 11:59:35 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] 140,000 troops in FATA In-Reply-To: <540667.20224.qm@web53605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <507310.13141.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <540667.20224.qm@web53605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: there is a difference between the people of pakistan and the Pakistan army. they are not the same in my narrative. in fact the army aided the US designs in destroying and destabilizing the region, besides displacing the civil political system over and over again, not to mention the massacre in east pakistan and army actions in baluchistan and now waziristan. in politics they remain the most powerful force, and are by no means representative of the pakistani people. i hope that clarifies. yes hyderabad + junagadh vs kashmir were complementary situations, i agree, but the point was that india's military interventions are also on record. one might add the civil war in sri lanka, although i dont know the details. best On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 6:44 AM, Rahul Asthana wrote: > Yasir, I agree that People of Pakistan are the real victim. But other than > that I would like to point a few things in your narrative. > > Pakistan already had plans in Afghanistan and controlled some Taliban > before the Russian invasion. America bought the army and financed the > Taliban at that time. Army retained control and still continues it. The > relation is one sided maybe from your perspective, not from America's. It > paid your generals. If anyone has moral responsibilities to Pakistan's > people , its your army.The army plays the double game of bombing NWFP and > letting the Taliban operate. Anyway, you probably know all this. > Same in case of 1971. India did attack and caused the vivisection but > primary responsibility is still of the Army when it was killing bengalis by > the thousands and refugees were pouring in India. Its an irony that the army > uses a vicious circle to control you -initiate trouble and then when the > blow back comes strengthen the grip on the country- and you still blame > India and America.Do you really believe India gobbled up Hyderabad and > Kashmir? > Please read HV Hodsons book The Great Divide. Jinnah himself did not agree > to Mount Battens idea that Hindu majority states join India and Muslim > majority Pakistan, because he wanted Hyderabad and thought that Kashmir > would fall in his lap anyway and in the end ended up losing both. If you > want I can provide quotations from the book. > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: yasir ~يا سر > To: Sarai Reader-list > Sent: Mon, May 3, 2010 4:06:56 P > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] 140,000 troops in FATA > > tough choices > Elders’ absence hinders army goals in northwest /pk > > http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/pakistan/04-elders-northwest-qs-06 > > > On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 7:51 PM, yasir ~يا سر > wrote: > > > no sorry you totally got that from an enemy perspective. please get this > > right. > > > > if you ask us, we will tell you the following: > > the people of pakistan are the real victim, when the govt of pakistan, > the > > pakistan army, sold itself to the united states, becoming a mercenary > state > > for them. the relation is completely one-sided. what development in real > > terms have we seen, take any indicator. why are we worse off with many > > systems existing and functioning back in the postpartition days woefully > > nonexistent or malfunctional, let alone any new systems. the answer is > quite > > severe. we have a military budget which has to deal with india which is > many > > itimes its size and (had been) eadger to destabilize it after breaking it > up > > into 2 in 1971, and which had earlier eaten up hyderabad and kashmir. so > we > > are now doomed to military spending which comes anyway from the US, > leaving > > little in the way of major public projects which could have benefited > people > > at large. Government spending was eaten by the military. if you imagine > what > > kind of a present society we could have been if we had not stuck to this > > stupid military buildup (you can eveluate your own side). so the war on > > terror is just another day, another cloud. but it follows the covert US > > action in Afghanistan against the Soviets using Afghanis and Pakistanis > then > > disappearing for a decade and showing up again this time because the > > militancy the americans had started, charlie wilson's war starring tom > > cruise, could not be put out and took the wtc with it. sorry there is no > > conspiracy here. we are getting the blame 'for not doing enough' and then > we > > have to deal with your pearls of wisdom strewn from across the border. > > > > so dear KK, we are not asking for blood money. we are saying: having > > destroyed the region, you better build it up now, to what it should be > like. > > i think this is not only possible, but also a moral responsility of the > US > > in no uncertain terms. and we dont trust them either because of this > > history. > > > > best > > > > y > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 5:50 PM, Kshmendra Kaul >wrote: > > > >> USA also pays "Blood Money" to Pakistan which Pakistan accepts very > >> gratefully. > >> > >> In fact there is a constant clamour by many in Pakistan : "You are not > >> paying us enough!!!! We want more!!!! We want more!!!!" > >> > >> --- On *Mon, 5/3/10, yasir ~يا سر * wrote: > >> > >> > >> From: yasir ~يا سر > >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] 140,000 troops in FATA > >> To: "Sarai Reader-list" > >> Date: Monday, May 3, 2010, 1:53 PM > >> > >> one needs to add much salt here: > >> > >> > >> - reporters are not allowed, you only get the official army version > >> - civilian casualties are 'normal', very high and not reported, > >> including > >> extra judicial killings and right violations > >> - the number of internally displaced people is huge, frequently not > >> taken > >> care of by anyone let alone by govt > >> - the motivation in no small measure comes from the US pressuring the > >> PK > >> army to show that action is being taken, which frequently leads to > >> unstable > >> conditions, rather than working with local actors with a long term > >> view, > >> while dealing with a guerrilla like militancy. > >> > >> > >> > >> On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 11:30 AM, S. Jabbar http://us.mc572.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=sonia.jabbar at gmail.com>> > >> wrote: > >> > >> > > >> > FRONT-PAGE > >> > ŒPakistan has moved 100,000 troops from eastern border¹ > >> > > >> > By Our Correspondent > >> > > >> > Friday, 30 Apr, 2010 | 01:38 AM PST | > >> > > >> > > >> > WASHINGTON: Pakistan has deployed 140,000 troops in Fata, moving at > >> least > >> > 100,000 soldiers from the Indian border to back up its Œunprecedented¹ > >> > crackdown on militants along the Afghan border, says a Pentagon > report. > >> > > >> > In its mandatory report to the US Congress on the situation in the > >> > Pakistan-Afghan region, the Pentagon notes that the deployment is the > >> > biggest in the country¹s history on the western border. > >> > > >> > ³This unprecedented deployment and thinning of the lines against India > >> > indicates that Islamabad has acknowledged its domestic insurgent > >> threat.² > >> > > >> > The Pentagon also acknowledges that Pakistani military operations in > the > >> > tribal regions have had an impact across the border, placing a ³high > >> degree > >> > of pressure on enemy forces and reduced insurgent safe haven² in > eastern > >> > Afghanistan. > >> > > >> > The Pentagon informs Congress that recent arrests by Pakistan of > Afghan > >> > Taliban leaders, including the group¹s No. 2, Mullah Abdul Ghani > >> Baradar, > >> > have ³increased insurgent leaders¹ concern over the security of their > >> safe > >> > havens² and created ³financial and logistical² problems for them. > >> > > >> > This assessment contrasts sharply with the Afghan claim ‹ backed by > >> India ‹ > >> > that the arrests have weakened Kabul¹s efforts to seek a negotiated > >> > settlement with the Taliban leadership. > >> > > >> > The report quotes a senior US defence official as saying that the > >> arrests > >> > in > >> > Pakistan produced ³a lot of concerned chatter² among Taliban > >> sympathisers > >> > in > >> > Afghanistan, but there¹s no indication of ³a leadership crisis in the > >> > Taliban². > >> > > >> > The Pentagon notes that so far the crackdown in Pakistan is focused > >> almost > >> > exclusively on internal threats and that¹s why it¹s not having any > >> > ³significant impact on the Afghan insurgency in the short term². > >> > > >> > But the crackdown ³offers opportunities in coming months to have a > >> greater > >> > impact on the conflict in Afghanistan depending on how PAKMIL > (Pakistani > >> > military) operations evolve,² the report adds. > >> > > >> > ³Pakistan has suffered attacks from terrorists in response to its > >> > successful > >> > operations. These attacks include mass casualty events in Mingora, > South > >> > Waziristan agency close to clearing operations as well as in Lahore, > far > >> > away from the fighting. ³While these attacks do not appear to have > >> shaken > >> > Pakistan¹s commitment, they do demonstrate, for the time being, > >> insurgent > >> > ability to continue attacks despite successful Pakistani operations,² > >> the > >> > report warns. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/ > >> > > >> > > >> > front-page/pakistan-has-moved-100,000-troops-from-indian-border-pentagon-040< > >> > http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/%0Afront-page/pakistan-has-moved-100,000-troops-from-indian-border-pentagon-040 > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > Copyright © 2010 - Dawn Media Group > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net< > http://us.mc572.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=reader-list-request at sarai.net > >with > >> > subscribe in the subject header. > >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > List archive: > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net< > http://us.mc572.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=reader-list-request at sarai.net>with > subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: > >> > >> > >> > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > From patrice at xs4all.nl Tue May 4 14:45:36 2010 From: patrice at xs4all.nl (Patrice Riemens) Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 11:15:36 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] Middlesex University (UK) simply abolishes its philosophy department Message-ID: As academic surrealism davances in Europe.... http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/save-middlesex-philosophy.html context: Late on Monday 26 April, the Dean of the School of Arts & Humanities, Ed Esche, informed staff in Philosophy that the University executive had ‘accepted his recommendation’ to close all Philosophy programmes: undergraduate, postgraduate and MPhil/PhD. The Dean explained that the decision to terminate recruitment and close the programmes was ’simply financial’, and based on the fact that the University believes that it may be able to generate more revenue if it shifts its resources to other subjects – from ‘Band D’ to ‘Band C’ students. In a meeting with Philosophy staff, the Dean acknowledged the excellent research reputation of Philosophy at Middlesex, but said that it made no ‘measurable’ contribution to the University. Please sign the petition! cheers, patrizio & Diiiinooos! From aliens at dataone.in Tue May 4 16:38:47 2010 From: aliens at dataone.in (Bipin Trivedi) Date: Tue, 04 May 2010 16:38:47 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] TIME FOR TOUGH STAND Message-ID: <000f01caeb7a$2c848420$858d8c60$@in> Though terrorist's Kasav case was crystal clear, but still we have gone for about 17 months fair trial and proved that how transparent our judicial system is unlike Pakistan. But, after this trial and judgment, he should not allow to appeal in the higher court and should be hanged in public immediately. India should show the world that country cannot compromise in integrity and take hard action if required like open public death sentence. Even betrayed Madhuri Gupta, who spied for Pakistan, should also punished death sentence without going to court of law since she admitted her allegation and proved guilty. Thanks Bipin From shuddha at sarai.net Tue May 4 16:48:07 2010 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 16:48:07 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] TIME FOR TOUGH STAND In-Reply-To: <000f01caeb7a$2c848420$858d8c60$@in> References: <000f01caeb7a$2c848420$858d8c60$@in> Message-ID: Dear Bipin, I think Kasab, Lt. Colonel Purohit, Sadhvi Pragya, the recently detained RSS functionaries arrested for their connections to the blasts in Hyderabad and Ajmer, and all others accused in terrorism cases should all be able to exercise their rights as accused as per the law. This includes the right to appeal to a higher court against the sentences that may be awarded to them. This is a right given in the Indian constitution to anyone accused in a court of law. Do you want this right to be changed, so that Kasab and Lt. Colonel Purohit both be sent to be hanged without the right of a proper defence? I hope that no one agrees with you, as that would amount to a gross compromise with the standards of fairness and decency which all human beings, regardless of their politics, need. best Shuddha On 04-May-10, at 4:38 PM, Bipin Trivedi wrote: > Though terrorist's Kasav case was crystal clear, but still we have > gone for > about 17 months fair trial and proved that how transparent our > judicial > system is unlike Pakistan. But, after this trial and judgment, he > should not > allow to appeal in the higher court and should be hanged in public > immediately. India should show the world that country cannot > compromise in > integrity and take hard action if required like open public death > sentence. > > > > Even betrayed Madhuri Gupta, who spied for Pakistan, should also > punished > death sentence without going to court of law since she admitted her > allegation and proved guilty. > > > > Thanks > > Bipin > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From lalitambardar at hotmail.com Tue May 4 17:40:44 2010 From: lalitambardar at hotmail.com (Lalit Ambardar) Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 12:10:44 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] JKCCS Appeal to United Jehad Council, Indian Army and Police In-Reply-To: References: <04C61F6C-96CF-4485-8A71-D0C250F3A07C@sarai.net>, Message-ID: Alas, this ‘spirit’ was missing when the macabre dance of death & destruction was played on the streets of Kashmir by AK-47 wielding jihadists who wore symbolic shrouds & holy inscription laden head bands……..hapless Kashmiri Hindu Pandits were selectively targeted ….…... ….subjected to ethnic cleansing. The self acclaimed civil society, then chose to describe the bravado as ‘welcome winds of change’. Ironically the appeal is also addressed to POK based L-e-T affiliate United Jihad Council that only recently repeated the ‘caveat’ against the Kashmiri Hindu Pandits’ return to their homeland … ..…which of course had to go unnoticed by those who seem to be now going overboard with enthusiasm over this appeal. This is a ploy to legitimise the jihad for ‘azadi- bara- e- Islam’ (freedom through Islam) in Kashmir. Or (and) this could be an indication of some major terror strike being planned..?? Certainly, ‘civil society’ is not bothered about stone pelters even if they happen to cause casualties amongst ordinary Kashmiris. Or is UJC dried up of ammunition supplies that it intends to use now canon balls carved out of stones. An appeal to jihadists to leave Kashmiris alone could go a long way in ameliorating the sufferings of common Kashmiris. The civil society (if it was genuinely concerned about the plight of the masses) & their sympathisers including those on this forum should explore this option too…… Rgds all LA --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 10:55:46 +0530 > From: sonia.jabbar at gmail.com > To: shuddha at sarai.net; reader-list at sarai.net > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] JKCCS Appeal to United Jehad Council, Indian Army and Police > > Bravo! Excellent effort. > > > > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 10:09:40 +0530 > > To: sarai-list list > > Subject: [Reader-list] JKCCS Appeal to United Jehad Council, Indian Army and > > Police > > > > Dear all, > > Please find below and appeal from the Jammu and Kashmir Coalition > > of > Civil Society, appealing impartially to the leadership of the United > > > Jehad Council (who claim to represent a significant section of the > > > insurgents in Jammu and Kashmir) and the leadership political- > > > administrative, police, military and paramilitary structures that are > > > operational in the part of the state of Jammu and Kashmir > administered by > > India. The appeal in a sense asks for guarantees that > civilians and unarmed > > people in general will not be targetted by > either party. I hope that such > > initiatives gain strength, not only in > Jammu and Kashmir, but in other parts > > of our troubled subcontinent. > > best > > Shuddha > --------------------- > > 3rd May, > > 2010 > Press Release > > On Friday 30th April, Jammu and Kashmir Coalition of Civil > > Society > (JKCCS) sent an appeal for the observance of International > > > Humanitarian Law in Jammu and Kashmir to: > > 1. Chief Minister and > > Chairman of Unified High Command Mr. Omar > Abdullah, > 2. Chairman United > > Jehad Council, Mr. Syed Sallahudin, > 3. Core Commander, Northern Command > > of Indian Army, Lt. Gen BS > JASWAL > 4. Director General, Jammu and > > Kashmir Police, Mr. Kuldeep Khoda > 5. I. G.P. CRPF, Mr. P.V.K. Reddy > > We > > as a civil society organisation feel duty-bound to remind the > state as well > > as non-state actors of their moral/legal/religious > obligations in the > > context of continuing armed conflict, about their > responsibilities in > > protecting civilian lives, property and civil > rights. > JKCCS has requested > > both state and non-state combatants to consider > the below attached appeal > > and make public commitment in this regard > besides taking necessary > > safeguards in adhering to the basic > principles of International Humanitarian > > Law in Jammu and Kashmir. > So far JKCCS has not received any response from any > > side regarding > this appeal. We today are making this appeal public in order > > to build > public opinion and solicit public response to our concerns from > > both > state and non-state combatants. > We believe the positive response from > > the state and non-state > combatants regarding our appeal will go a long way > > in increasing an > atmosphere of security for the civilian lives, dignity and > > property > in Jammu and Kashmir. > > President > Ad. Parvez Imroz > > APPEAL FOR THE > > OBSERVANCE OF INTERNATIONAL HUMANITARIAN LAW IN JAMMU > AND KASHMIR > > As a > > state, India is signatory to Geneva Conventions and other > International > > humanitarian instruments, which regulate conduct of > combat in all conflict > > situations wherein tensions heighten to direct > hostilities among states or > > between state and certain non-state > actors/groups. > > Being signatory to > > Geneva Conventions brings in its wake various > moral/legal checks upon states > > in their conduct of combat operations > particularly when the sites of > > hostilities involve/ and is > interspersed with huge civilian spaces. > > Jammu > > and Kashmir has been the main site of hostilities particularly > during the > > last two decades, between Indian state actors represented > by its personnel > > in military/para-military/Police against armed > militants belonging to > > various outfits working under an alliance of > United Jehad Council > > (UJC). > > UJC in the year 2005 adopted and publicized its Code of Conduct which > > > was supposed to be binding on all the armed militant organizations > and > > their cadres operating in Jammu and Kashmir. This Code of Conduct > was a > > unilateral commitment of UJC to abide by some of the basic > principles of > > International Humanitarian Law. Later in October 2007 > UJC, while signing the > > Unilateral Declaration on the Ban of use of > landmines also reiterated its > > commitment to abide by all four > covenants of Geneva Conventions. > > State of > > India, through its signing of various International > humanitarian instruments > > and United Jehad Council (also its > constituents) through their unilateral > > declarations, Code of Conduct > and various public statements have been > > reiterating their position > vis-à-vis the loss of civilian lives and property > > and talking about > their mechanisms for ensuring protection of civilian life > > and property. > > However, commitments made by the state of India, besides her > > > promises, from time to time has seen very little or no enforcement on > > > ground during the heightened phase of conflict for the last two > decades > > particularly with respect to the treatment meted out to > civilian population. > > Despite all the public commitments people of > Jammu and Kashmir continue to > > witness loss of civilian lives, > destruction of their property and denial of > > civil and political rights. > > Also, the promises of non-state > > actors/organizations/groups hold > little water in terms of their realization > > on ground. Civilian spaces > continue to remain a contested site of direct > > hostilities between non- > state and the state actors, which result in loss of > > precious lives, > torture and humiliation of civilian populations. > > There have > > been consistent media reports streaming in for the last > few months about > > Œsome looming prospect of escalation in the direct > hostilities between the > > state and non-state forces¹. Amid the obvious > political simmer, and reported > > Œprospect of hot summer¹ coupled with > many recent Œcivilian¹ killings, we as > > a civil society organisation > feel duty-bound to remind the state as well as > > non-state actors of > their moral/legal/religious obligations towards > > people. > > We would like to remind the State of India and the leadership of > > > United Jehad Council in the context of continuing armed conflict, > about > > their responsibilities in protecting civilian lives, property > and civil > > rights. > > We call upon all the combatants whether state or non-state to abide > > > by the following minimum and basic principles derived from > International > > Humanitarian Law and other universally accepted > principles: > > During > > operations combatants must not target civilian objects, > civilians and those > > not directly participating in armed hostilities.[1] > > During military > > operations, constant care must be taken to spare > civilian population, > > civilians and civilian objects.[2] > > In order to avoid civilian casualties, > > military installations in > and around population centers must not be created. > > Attacks against > such military objectives which are expected to cause > > disproportionate > civilian casualties and damage must not be > > launched.[3] > > During and after the combat operations wounded and sick must > > be > collected and cared for.[4] > > Civilians must not be taken hostage for > > any reason or/and in any > circumstances.[5] > > During operations when enemy > > fighters are taken prisoners, they > must be treated humanely; they must not > > be tortured, killed or > disappeared in custody.[6] > > The dead must be > > respected and their bodies not mutilated. When > mortal remains are > > unidentified, every effort must be made to > preserve evidence that could lead > > to their eventual identification. > Graves should be marked. Where the > > identity of a dead person is known > (whether friend or enemy), next of the > > kin should be promptly > informed.[7] > > Ambulances, medical personnel and > > fire fighting personnel who take > no active part in hostilities must not be > > attacked, nor obstructed > from performing their humanitarian > > duties.[8] > > Places of worship and those taking refuge in them must not be > > > attacked in any circumstances.[9] > > Minorities, women, children, older > > people and disabled should > always be respected and no attempts should be > > made to infringe upon > their rights, dignity and safety.[10] > > Vehicles and > > buildings bearing emblems of the Red Cross and the Red > Crescent should be > > respected. These emblems must not be used to > deceive enemy during > > hostilities. [11] > > > [1] See article 3 common to the four Geneva Conventions of > > 1949. See > also articles 48 and 51.2 of Additional Protocol I of 1977. See > > also > Al-Quran 2:190 > [2] See article 57.1 of Additional Protocol I of > > 1977. > [3] See article 51.4, 51.5 (b) and 57.2 (a) iii of additional > protocol > > I of 1977. > [4] See article 3 common to the four Geneva Conventions of > > 1949. > [5] See articles 3 common to the four Geneva Conventions of 1949. > [6] > > See article 3 common to the four Geneva Conventions of 1949. See > Also > > article 13 and 17 of Geneva Convention III of 1949. Also see Al- > Quran > > 76:8 > [7] See article 17 of Geneva Convention I of 1949 and article 34 of > > > Additional Protocol I. > [8] See articles 12-18 of Additional Protocol I of > > 1977. > [9]See Hadith, > [10] See Hadith (Muslim Book 019, Number 4320) > [11] See > > articles 37, 38 and 85.3 (f) of Additional Protocol I of 1977. > > > > Shuddhabrata > > Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at > > CSDS > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > ___________ > > ______________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media > > and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To > > unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List > > archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________________________________ Bollywood This Decade http://entertainment.in.msn.com/bollywoodthisdecade/ From aliens at dataone.in Tue May 4 17:52:18 2010 From: aliens at dataone.in (Bipin Trivedi) Date: Tue, 04 May 2010 17:52:18 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] TIME FOR TOUGH STAND In-Reply-To: References: <000f01caeb7a$2c848420$858d8c60$@in> Message-ID: <000301caeb84$70de55b0$529b0110$@in> Dear Shuddha, It's question to teach lesson to Pakistan, the rogue state. All other Lt. colonel, Pragya court cases going on and they are kids against pak sponsored terrorists. Do not compare at this stage both the things. If they (Purohit, Pragya and their groups) proved guilty and/or continue with terror and become proved seasoned terror group like LeT, Jamal Ud-dawa and other similar groups then the question of comparison arises. It's like comparison between acts of kid's and mature adults. Such a comparison at this stage surprises me and I am sure to others. Thanks Bipin From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta [mailto:shuddha at sarai.net] Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 4:48 PM To: Bipin Trivedi Cc: sarai-list Subject: Re: [Reader-list] TIME FOR TOUGH STAND Dear Bipin, I think Kasab, Lt. Colonel Purohit, Sadhvi Pragya, the recently detained RSS functionaries arrested for their connections to the blasts in Hyderabad and Ajmer, and all others accused in terrorism cases should all be able to exercise their rights as accused as per the law. This includes the right to appeal to a higher court against the sentences that may be awarded to them. This is a right given in the Indian constitution to anyone accused in a court of law. Do you want this right to be changed, so that Kasab and Lt. Colonel Purohit both be sent to be hanged without the right of a proper defence? I hope that no one agrees with you, as that would amount to a gross compromise with the standards of fairness and decency which all human beings, regardless of their politics, need. best Shuddha On 04-May-10, at 4:38 PM, Bipin Trivedi wrote: Though terrorist's Kasav case was crystal clear, but still we have gone for about 17 months fair trial and proved that how transparent our judicial system is unlike Pakistan. But, after this trial and judgment, he should not allow to appeal in the higher court and should be hanged in public immediately. India should show the world that country cannot compromise in integrity and take hard action if required like open public death sentence. Even betrayed Madhuri Gupta, who spied for Pakistan, should also punished death sentence without going to court of law since she admitted her allegation and proved guilty. Thanks Bipin _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Tue May 4 18:09:15 2010 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 05:39:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] 140,000 troops in FATA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <525895.33880.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Yasir   >From 'Blame-USA' you move to "Blame-India". "Land of the Pure", Pakistan's favorite pastime; blame everyone else but itself.   Your viewpoint of 'history' between India and Pakistan starts from 1971.   Remember 1947-48 when Maharaja of Kashmir had to sign the "Instrument of Accession" because Pakistan broke the "Standstill Agreement" which (unlike India) it had signed on? In a manner of speaking, India did not 'eat up' Kashmir but Pakistan offered it to India.   Remember 1965 and Pakistan's 'Operation Gibraltar'? (Read Ikram Sehgal's  http://www.defencejournal.com/jul99/gibraltor-2.htm)    Yet India was kind to Pakistan in 1971 and returned the 90,000 POWs without getting anything in return. Rather the idiocy of Indira Gandhi in trusting whatever Bhutto had promised her.   Yet, the never to be trusted Pakistan went in for the sneaky Kargil operation.   Pakistan's build-up of Military capabilities (and connected Budgets) has as much and more to do with it's Islamic ambitions ('thekedaar' of Islam) as it has to do with threat perceptions from India that it itself has provoked.    By your logic, with India's inimical relations with China, India should be trying to match the Defence Budget of China and more since there are two 'enemies' to contend with, China and Pakistan.   India's defence expenditure happens to be a lower percentage of it's GDP when compared to Pakistan. From 2.5% of GDP in 06-07, it has come dowm to 2.30% in 09-10 and 2.12% in 10-11.   And yes, please make up your mind. Did India 'eat up' Hyderabad&Junagad or Kashmir? Any logic justifying claim of 'eat up' of one would contradict itself when applied to the other.   Kshmendra --- On Mon, 5/3/10, yasir ~يا سر wrote: From: yasir ~يا سر Subject: Re: [Reader-list] 140,000 troops in FATA To: "Sarai Reader-list" Date: Monday, May 3, 2010, 8:21 PM no sorry you totally got that from an enemy perspective. please get this right. if you ask us, we will tell you the following: the people of pakistan are the real victim, when the govt of pakistan, the pakistan army, sold itself to the united states, becoming a mercenary state for them. the relation is completely one-sided. what development in real terms have we seen, take any indicator. why are we worse off with many systems existing and functioning back in the postpartition days woefully nonexistent or malfunctional, let alone any new systems. the answer is quite severe. we have a military budget which has to deal with india which is many itimes its size and (had been) eadger to destabilize it after breaking it up into 2 in 1971, and which had earlier eaten up hyderabad and kashmir. so we are now doomed to military spending which comes anyway from the US, leaving little in the way of major public projects which could have benefited people at large. Government spending was eaten by the military. if you imagine what kind of a present society we could have been if we had not stuck to this stupid military buildup (you can eveluate your own side). so the war on terror is just another day, another cloud. but it follows the covert US action in Afghanistan against the Soviets using Afghanis and Pakistanis then disappearing for a decade and showing up again this time because the militancy the americans had started, charlie wilson's war starring tom cruise, could not be put out and took the wtc with it. sorry there is no conspiracy here. we are getting the blame 'for not doing enough' and then we have to deal with your pearls of wisdom strewn from across the border. so dear KK, we are not asking for blood money. we are saying:  having destroyed the region, you better build it up now, to what it should be like. i think this is not only possible, but also a moral responsility of the US in no uncertain terms. and we dont trust them either because of this history. best y On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 5:50 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > USA also pays "Blood Money" to Pakistan which Pakistan accepts very > gratefully. > > In fact there is a constant clamour by many in Pakistan : "You are not > paying us enough!!!! We want more!!!! We want more!!!!" > > --- On *Mon, 5/3/10, yasir ~يا سر * wrote: > > > From: yasir ~يا سر > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] 140,000 troops in FATA > To: "Sarai Reader-list" > Date: Monday, May 3, 2010, 1:53 PM > > one needs to add much salt here: > > >    - reporters are not allowed, you only get the official army version >    - civilian casualties are 'normal', very high and not reported, > including >    extra judicial killings and right violations >    - the number of internally displaced people is huge, frequently not > taken >    care of by anyone let alone by govt >    - the motivation in no small measure comes from the US pressuring the PK >    army to show that action is being taken, which frequently leads to > unstable >    conditions, rather than working with local actors with a long term view, >    while dealing with a guerrilla like militancy. > > > > On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 11:30 AM, S. Jabbar > > wrote: > > > > > FRONT-PAGE > > ŒPakistan has moved 100,000 troops from eastern border¹ > > > > By Our Correspondent > > > > Friday, 30 Apr, 2010 | 01:38 AM PST | > > > > > > WASHINGTON: Pakistan has deployed 140,000 troops in Fata, moving at least > > 100,000 soldiers from the Indian border to back up its Œunprecedented¹ > > crackdown on militants along the Afghan border, says a Pentagon report. > > > > In its mandatory report to the US Congress on the situation in the > > Pakistan-Afghan region, the Pentagon notes that the deployment is the > > biggest in the country¹s history on the western border. > > > > ³This unprecedented deployment and thinning of the lines against India > > indicates that Islamabad has acknowledged its domestic insurgent threat.² > > > > The Pentagon also acknowledges that Pakistani military operations in the > > tribal regions have had an impact across the border, placing a ³high > degree > > of pressure on enemy forces and reduced insurgent safe haven² in eastern > > Afghanistan. > > > > The Pentagon informs Congress that recent arrests by Pakistan of Afghan > > Taliban leaders, including the group¹s No. 2, Mullah Abdul Ghani Baradar, > > have ³increased insurgent leaders¹ concern over the security of their > safe > > havens² and created ³financial and logistical² problems for them. > > > > This assessment contrasts sharply with the Afghan claim ‹ backed by India > ‹ > > that the arrests have weakened Kabul¹s efforts to seek a negotiated > > settlement with the Taliban leadership. > > > > The report quotes a senior US defence official as saying that the arrests > > in > > Pakistan produced ³a lot of concerned chatter² among Taliban sympathisers > > in > > Afghanistan, but there¹s no indication of ³a leadership crisis in the > > Taliban². > > > > The Pentagon notes that so far the crackdown in Pakistan is focused > almost > > exclusively on internal threats and that¹s why it¹s not having any > > ³significant impact on the Afghan insurgency in the short term². > > > > But the crackdown ³offers opportunities in coming months to have a > greater > > impact on the conflict in Afghanistan depending on how PAKMIL (Pakistani > > military) operations evolve,² the report adds. > > > > ³Pakistan has suffered attacks from terrorists in response to its > > successful > > operations. These attacks include mass casualty events in Mingora, South > > Waziristan agency close to clearing operations as well as in Lahore, far > > away from the fighting. ³While these attacks do not appear to have shaken > > Pakistan¹s commitment, they do demonstrate, for the time being, insurgent > > ability to continue attacks despite successful Pakistani operations,² the > > report warns. > > > > > > > http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/ > > > > > front-page/pakistan-has-moved-100,000-troops-from-indian-border-pentagon-040< > http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/%0Afront-page/pakistan-has-moved-100,000-troops-from-indian-border-pentagon-040 > > > > > > > Copyright © 2010 - Dawn Media Group > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From aliens at dataone.in Tue May 4 18:46:29 2010 From: aliens at dataone.in (Bipin Trivedi) Date: Tue, 04 May 2010 18:46:29 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 140,000 troops in FATA In-Reply-To: <525895.33880.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <525895.33880.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000001caeb8c$0308d620$091a8260$@in> Yes Kshemendra, you are perfectly right and good point of argument raised. Keep it up. -----Original Message----- From: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net [mailto:reader-list-bounces at sarai.net] On Behalf Of Kshmendra Kaul Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 6:09 PM To: Sarai Reader-list; yasir ~يا سر Subject: Re: [Reader-list] 140,000 troops in FATA Dear Yasir >From 'Blame-USA' you move to "Blame-India". "Land of the Pure", Pakistan's favorite pastime; blame everyone else but itself. Your viewpoint of 'history' between India and Pakistan starts from 1971. Remember 1947-48 when Maharaja of Kashmir had to sign the "Instrument of Accession" because Pakistan broke the "Standstill Agreement" which (unlike India) it had signed on? In a manner of speaking, India did not 'eat up' Kashmir but Pakistan offered it to India. Remember 1965 and Pakistan's 'Operation Gibraltar'? (Read Ikram Sehgal's http://www.defencejournal.com/jul99/gibraltor-2.htm) Yet India was kind to Pakistan in 1971 and returned the 90,000 POWs without getting anything in return. Rather the idiocy of Indira Gandhi in trusting whatever Bhutto had promised her. Yet, the never to be trusted Pakistan went in for the sneaky Kargil operation. Pakistan's build-up of Military capabilities (and connected Budgets) has as much and more to do with it's Islamic ambitions ('thekedaar' of Islam) as it has to do with threat perceptions from India that it itself has provoked. By your logic, with India's inimical relations with China, India should be trying to match the Defence Budget of China and more since there are two 'enemies' to contend with, China and Pakistan. India's defence expenditure happens to be a lower percentage of it's GDP when compared to Pakistan. From 2.5% of GDP in 06-07, it has come dowm to 2.30% in 09-10 and 2.12% in 10-11. And yes, please make up your mind. Did India 'eat up' Hyderabad&Junagad or Kashmir? Any logic justifying claim of 'eat up' of one would contradict itself when applied to the other. Kshmendra --- On Mon, 5/3/10, yasir ~يا سر wrote: From: yasir ~يا سر Subject: Re: [Reader-list] 140,000 troops in FATA To: "Sarai Reader-list" Date: Monday, May 3, 2010, 8:21 PM no sorry you totally got that from an enemy perspective. please get this right. if you ask us, we will tell you the following: the people of pakistan are the real victim, when the govt of pakistan, the pakistan army, sold itself to the united states, becoming a mercenary state for them. the relation is completely one-sided. what development in real terms have we seen, take any indicator. why are we worse off with many systems existing and functioning back in the postpartition days woefully nonexistent or malfunctional, let alone any new systems. the answer is quite severe. we have a military budget which has to deal with india which is many itimes its size and (had been) eadger to destabilize it after breaking it up into 2 in 1971, and which had earlier eaten up hyderabad and kashmir. so we are now doomed to military spending which comes anyway from the US, leaving little in the way of major public projects which could have benefited people at large. Government spending was eaten by the military. if you imagine what kind of a present society we could have been if we had not stuck to this stupid military buildup (you can eveluate your own side). so the war on terror is just another day, another cloud. but it follows the covert US action in Afghanistan against the Soviets using Afghanis and Pakistanis then disappearing for a decade and showing up again this time because the militancy the americans had started, charlie wilson's war starring tom cruise, could not be put out and took the wtc with it. sorry there is no conspiracy here. we are getting the blame 'for not doing enough' and then we have to deal with your pearls of wisdom strewn from across the border. so dear KK, we are not asking for blood money. we are saying: having destroyed the region, you better build it up now, to what it should be like. i think this is not only possible, but also a moral responsility of the US in no uncertain terms. and we dont trust them either because of this history. best y On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 5:50 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > USA also pays "Blood Money" to Pakistan which Pakistan accepts very > gratefully. > > In fact there is a constant clamour by many in Pakistan : "You are not > paying us enough!!!! We want more!!!! We want more!!!!" > > --- On *Mon, 5/3/10, yasir ~يا سر * wrote: > > > From: yasir ~يا سر > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] 140,000 troops in FATA > To: "Sarai Reader-list" > Date: Monday, May 3, 2010, 1:53 PM > > one needs to add much salt here: > > > - reporters are not allowed, you only get the official army version > - civilian casualties are 'normal', very high and not reported, > including > extra judicial killings and right violations > - the number of internally displaced people is huge, frequently not > taken > care of by anyone let alone by govt > - the motivation in no small measure comes from the US pressuring the PK > army to show that action is being taken, which frequently leads to > unstable > conditions, rather than working with local actors with a long term view, > while dealing with a guerrilla like militancy. > > > > On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 11:30 AM, S. Jabbar > > wrote: > > > > > FRONT-PAGE > > ŒPakistan has moved 100,000 troops from eastern border¹ > > > > By Our Correspondent > > > > Friday, 30 Apr, 2010 | 01:38 AM PST | > > > > > > WASHINGTON: Pakistan has deployed 140,000 troops in Fata, moving at least > > 100,000 soldiers from the Indian border to back up its Œunprecedented¹ > > crackdown on militants along the Afghan border, says a Pentagon report. > > > > In its mandatory report to the US Congress on the situation in the > > Pakistan-Afghan region, the Pentagon notes that the deployment is the > > biggest in the country¹s history on the western border. > > > > ³This unprecedented deployment and thinning of the lines against India > > indicates that Islamabad has acknowledged its domestic insurgent threat.² > > > > The Pentagon also acknowledges that Pakistani military operations in the > > tribal regions have had an impact across the border, placing a ³high > degree > > of pressure on enemy forces and reduced insurgent safe haven² in eastern > > Afghanistan. > > > > The Pentagon informs Congress that recent arrests by Pakistan of Afghan > > Taliban leaders, including the group¹s No. 2, Mullah Abdul Ghani Baradar, > > have ³increased insurgent leaders¹ concern over the security of their > safe > > havens² and created ³financial and logistical² problems for them. > > > > This assessment contrasts sharply with the Afghan claim ‹ backed by India > ‹ > > that the arrests have weakened Kabul¹s efforts to seek a negotiated > > settlement with the Taliban leadership. > > > > The report quotes a senior US defence official as saying that the arrests > > in > > Pakistan produced ³a lot of concerned chatter² among Taliban sympathisers > > in > > Afghanistan, but there¹s no indication of ³a leadership crisis in the > > Taliban². > > > > The Pentagon notes that so far the crackdown in Pakistan is focused > almost > > exclusively on internal threats and that¹s why it¹s not having any > > ³significant impact on the Afghan insurgency in the short term². > > > > But the crackdown ³offers opportunities in coming months to have a > greater > > impact on the conflict in Afghanistan depending on how PAKMIL (Pakistani > > military) operations evolve,² the report adds. > > > > ³Pakistan has suffered attacks from terrorists in response to its > > successful > > operations. These attacks include mass casualty events in Mingora, South > > Waziristan agency close to clearing operations as well as in Lahore, far > > away from the fighting. ³While these attacks do not appear to have shaken > > Pakistan¹s commitment, they do demonstrate, for the time being, insurgent > > ability to continue attacks despite successful Pakistani operations,² the > > report warns. > > > > > > > http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/ > > > > > front-page/pakistan-has-moved-100,000-troops-from-indian-border-pentagon-040< > http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/%0Afront-page/pakistan-has-moved-100,000-troops-from-indian-border-pentagon-040 > > > > > > > Copyright © 2010 - Dawn Media Group > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From anansi1 at earthlink.net Wed May 5 00:40:44 2010 From: anansi1 at earthlink.net (Paul D. Miller) Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 15:10:44 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [Reader-list] Public Enemy vs Arizona: Sonic Immigration Message-ID: <16454268.1273000244857.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rubis.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Hey people - I just finished a studio session with Chuck D from Public Enemy. In the wake of Republican Governor Jan Brewer's appalling anti-immigrant law, me and Chuck D were rappin' and we decided to put together an update of his classic track "By The Time I get To Arizona." You can download the track from here: http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html Anyone who knows about hip hop from the early 90's remembers John McCain's unwillingness to endorse creating a local version of Martin Luther King's birthday. The update here is a 21st century look in the rear view mirror. The cliché that "those who don't learn from the past are doomed to repeat it" still holds sway in our hyper amnesiac culture. I remixed D.W. Griffith's infamous film Birth of a Nation with a bit of Public Enemy in mind, and later on, they named an e.p. with the same name as my project. Me and Chuck D have done several projects in the past around progressive, non knucklehead hip hop. Please feel free to download this track and pass it around. We are the media. Feel free to pass it around! By the way, this is a mashup, and it's basically not really for sale. I just took a riff from Philly Sound (www.funkadelphiarecords.com), and flipped it. The result, is what you hear here. It's free, and open. No $!! You can download a better resolution version of the track here: http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html Check it! Paul From jjzeidner at gmail.com Wed May 5 00:52:07 2010 From: jjzeidner at gmail.com (Joshua Zeidner) Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 12:22:07 -0700 Subject: [Reader-list] Public Enemy vs Arizona: Sonic Immigration In-Reply-To: <16454268.1273000244857.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rubis.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <16454268.1273000244857.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rubis.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: I'm writing this from the Arizona Capitol. Paul, we don't want your racist politics here. Al Sharpton has nothing in common with the illegal aliens. You are not only a traitor to your country but a traitor to your own people. How can you turn against a country that has given you so much? we do remember history. We remember it very well. Check it: http://www.buffalosoldiermuseum.com/?linkid=410&webid=1000 -jmz On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 12:10 PM, Paul D. Miller wrote: > Hey people - I just finished a studio session with Chuck D from Public > Enemy. In the wake of Republican Governor Jan Brewer's appalling > anti-immigrant law, me and Chuck D were rappin' and we decided to put > together an update of his classic track "By The Time I get To Arizona." > > You can download the track from here: > > http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html > > > Anyone who knows about hip hop from the early 90's remembers John McCain's > unwillingness to endorse creating a local version of Martin Luther King's > birthday. The update here is a 21st century look in the rear view mirror. > The cliché that "those who don't learn from the past are doomed to repeat > it" still holds sway in our hyper amnesiac culture. I remixed D.W. > Griffith's infamous film Birth of a Nation with a bit of Public Enemy in > mind, and later on, they named an e.p. with the same name as my project. Me > and Chuck D have done several projects in the past around progressive, non > knucklehead hip hop. > > Please feel free to download this track and pass it around. We are the > media. Feel free to pass it around! > > By the way, this is a mashup, and it's basically not really for sale. I > just took a riff from Philly Sound (www.funkadelphiarecords.com), and > flipped it. The result, is what you hear here. It's free, and open. No $!! > You can download a better resolution version of the track here: > > http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html > > Check it! > > Paul > > > > > > > > > > > From anansi1 at earthlink.net Wed May 5 01:18:23 2010 From: anansi1 at earthlink.net (Paul D. Miller) Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 15:48:23 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Public Enemy vs Arizona: Sonic Immigration In-Reply-To: References: <16454268.1273000244857.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rubis.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <43BEF6CD-4F08-4D70-8441-802751389456@earthlink.net> Very strange and reactionary response. Joshua - can you please enlighten me on my 'racist politics' and my relationship to Al Sharpton? You're sounding a bit shrill and to be completely honest, totally irrational. Paul Sent from my iPhone On May 4, 2010, at 3:22 PM, Joshua Zeidner wrote: > > I'm writing this from the Arizona Capitol. > > Paul, we don't want your racist politics here. Al Sharpton has > nothing in common with the illegal aliens. You are not only a > traitor to your country but a traitor to your own people. How can > you turn against a country that has given you so much? > > we do remember history. We remember it very well. > > Check it: http://www.buffalosoldiermuseum.com/? > linkid=410&webid=1000 > > -jmz > > > On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 12:10 PM, Paul D. Miller > wrote: > Hey people - I just finished a studio session with Chuck D from > Public Enemy. In the wake of Republican Governor Jan Brewer's > appalling anti-immigrant law, me and Chuck D were rappin' and we > decided to put together an update of his classic track "By The Time > I get To Arizona." > > You can download the track from here: > > http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html > > > Anyone who knows about hip hop from the early 90's remembers John > McCain's unwillingness to endorse creating a local version of Martin > Luther King's birthday. The update here is a 21st century look in > the rear view mirror. The cliché that "those who don't learn from th > e past are doomed to repeat it" still holds sway in our hyper amnesi > ac culture. I remixed D.W. Griffith's infamous film Birth of a Natio > n with a bit of Public Enemy in mind, and later on, they named an e > .p. with the same name as my project. Me and Chuck D have done sever > al projects in the past around progressive, non knucklehead hip hop. > > Please feel free to download this track and pass it around. We are > the media. Feel free to pass it around! > > By the way, this is a mashup, and it's basically not really for > sale. I just took a riff from Philly Sound (www.funkadelphiarecords.com > ), and flipped it. The result, is what you hear here. It's free, and > open. No $!! > You can download a better resolution version of the track here: > > http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html > > Check it! > > Paul > > > > > > > > > > From anansi1 at earthlink.net Wed May 5 01:31:52 2010 From: anansi1 at earthlink.net (Paul D. Miller) Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 16:01:52 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] PT 2 - Re: Public Enemy vs Arizona: Sonic Immigration Message-ID: <05E71D60-86EA-4483-85AC-9AFC7139C000@earthlink.net> By the way, this is the first time Ive been called a racist and or someone who betrays my country. To the Sarai list - please excuse this strange exchange. But anyway, here's the lyrics to the song and a quick glance at the discussion board will show that many people from all walks of life are discussing this: By The Time I Get To Arizona Lyrics Artist: Public Enemy Album: Apocalypse 91 - Dj Spooky remix 2010 I'm countin' down to the day deservin' Fittin' for a king I'm waitin' for the time when I can Get to Arizona 'Cause my money's spent on The goddamn rent Neither party is mine not the Jackass or the elephant 20.000 nig niggy nigas in the corner Of the cell block but they come From California Population none in the desert and sun Wit' a gun cracker Runnin' things under his thumb Starin' hard at the postcards Isn't it odd and unique? Seein' people smile wild in the heat 120 degree 'Cause I wanna be free What's a smilin' fact When the whole state's racist Why want a holiday F--k it 'cause I wanna So what if I celebrate it standin' on a corner I ain't drinkin' no 40 I B thinkin' time wit' a nine Until we get some land Call me the trigger man Looki lookin' for the governor Huh he ain't lovin' ya But here to trouble ya He's rubbin' ya wrong Get the point come along An he can get to the joint I urinated on the state While I was kickin' this song Yeah, he appear to be fair The cracker over there He try to keep it yesteryear The good ol' days The same ol' ways That kept us dyin' Yes, you me myself and I'ndeed What he need is a nosebleed Read between the lines Then you see the lie Politically planned But understand that's all she wrote When we see the real side That hide behind the vote They can't understand why he the man I'm singin' 'bout a king They don't like it When I decide to mike it Wait I'm waitin' for the date For the man who demands respect 'Cause he was great c'mon I'm on the one mission To get a politician To honor or he's a gonna By the time I get to Arizona I got 25 days to do it If a wall in the sky Just watch me go thru it 'Cause I gotta do what I gotta do PE number one Gets the job done When it's done and over Was because I drove'er Thru all the static Not stick but automatic That's the way it is He gotta get his Talin' MLK Gonna find a way Make the state pay Lookin' for the day Hard as it seems This ain't no damn dream Gotta know what I mean It's team against team Catch the light beam So I pray I pray everyday I do and praise jah the maker Lookin' for culture I got but not here From jah maker Pushin' and shakin' the structure Bringin' down the babylon Hearin' the sucker That make it hard for the brown The hard Boulova I need now More than ever now Who's sittin' on my freedah' Opressor people beater Piece of the pick We picked a piece Of land that we deservin' now Reparation a piece of the nation And damn he got the nerve Another niga they say and classify We want too much My peep plus the whole nine is mine Don't think I even double dutch Here's a brother my attitude hit 'em Hang 'em high Blowin' up the 90s started tickin' 86 When the blind get a mind Better start and earn while we sing it Now There will be the day we know those down and who will go Sent from my iPhone On May 4, 2010, at 3:22 PM, Joshua Zeidner wrote: > > I'm writing this from the Arizona Capitol. > > Paul, we don't want your racist politics here. Al Sharpton has > nothing in common with the illegal aliens. You are not only a > traitor to your country but a traitor to your own people. How can > you turn against a country that has given you so much? > > we do remember history. We remember it very well. > > Check it: http://www.buffalosoldiermuseum.com/? > linkid=410&webid=1000 > > -jmz > > > On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 12:10 PM, Paul D. Miller > wrote: > Hey people - I just finished a studio session with Chuck D from > Public Enemy. In the wake of Republican Governor Jan Brewer's > appalling anti-immigrant law, me and Chuck D were rappin' and we > decided to put together an update of his classic track "By The Time > I get To Arizona." > > You can download the track from here: > > http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html > > > Anyone who knows about hip hop from the early 90's remembers John > McCain's unwillingness to endorse creating a local version of Martin > Luther King's birthday. The update here is a 21st century look in > the rear view mirror. The cliché that "those who don't learn from th > e past are doomed to repeat it" still holds sway in our hyper amnesi > ac culture. I remixed D.W. Griffith's infamous film Birth of a Natio > n with a bit of Public Enemy in mind, and later on, they named an e > .p. with the same name as my project. Me and Chuck D have done sever > al projects in the past around progressive, non knucklehead hip hop. > > Please feel free to download this track and pass it around. We are > the media. Feel free to pass it around! > > By the way, this is a mashup, and it's basically not really for > sale. I just took a riff from Philly Sound (www.funkadelphiarecords.com > ), and flipped it. The result, is what you hear here. It's free, and > open. No $!! > You can download a better resolution version of the track here: > > http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html > > Check it! > > Paul > > > > > > > > > > From jjzeidner at gmail.com Wed May 5 01:32:45 2010 From: jjzeidner at gmail.com (Joshua Zeidner) Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 13:02:45 -0700 Subject: [Reader-list] Public Enemy vs Arizona: Sonic Immigration In-Reply-To: <43BEF6CD-4F08-4D70-8441-802751389456@earthlink.net> References: <16454268.1273000244857.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rubis.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <43BEF6CD-4F08-4D70-8441-802751389456@earthlink.net> Message-ID: sorry for getting all up in your grill hommie, but racism cuts both ways. maybe you can get Flavor Flav all up in hizouse too? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzhpB1X-6ok it's pretty simple that illegal aliens are modern day slavery and they destroy the lives of white and black Americans alike. Unfortunately we've got selllouts like you who are willing to say anything for a paycheck. check ya later holmes, jmz On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 12:48 PM, Paul D. Miller wrote: > Very strange and reactionary response. > > Joshua - can you please enlighten me on my 'racist politics' and my > relationship to Al Sharpton? > > You're sounding a bit shrill and to be completely honest, totally > irrational. > > Paul > > > Sent from my iPhone > > On May 4, 2010, at 3:22 PM, Joshua Zeidner wrote: > > > I'm writing this from the Arizona Capitol. > > Paul, we don't want your racist politics here. Al Sharpton has nothing > in common with the illegal aliens. You are not only a traitor to your > country but a traitor to your own people. How can you turn against a > country that has given you so much? > > we do remember history. We remember it very well. > > Check it: > http://www.buffalosoldiermuseum.com/?linkid=410&webid=1000 > > -jmz > > > On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 12:10 PM, Paul D. Miller < > anansi1 at earthlink.net> wrote: > >> Hey people - I just finished a studio session with Chuck D from Public >> Enemy. In the wake of Republican Governor Jan Brewer's appalling >> anti-immigrant law, me and Chuck D were rappin' and we decided to put >> together an update of his classic track "By The Time I get To Arizona." >> >> You can download the track from here: >> >> >> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html >> >> >> Anyone who knows about hip hop from the early 90's remembers John McCain's >> unwillingness to endorse creating a local version of Martin Luther King's >> birthday. The update here is a 21st century look in the rear view mirror. >> The cliché that "those who don't learn from the past are doomed to repeat >> it" still holds sway in our hyper amnesiac culture. I remixed D.W. >> Griffith's infamous film Birth of a Nation with a bit of Public Enemy in >> mind, and later on, they named an e.p. with the same name as my project. Me >> and Chuck D have done several projects in the past around progressive, non >> knucklehead hip hop. >> >> Please feel free to download this track and pass it around. We are the >> media. Feel free to pass it around! >> >> By the way, this is a mashup, and it's basically not really for sale. I >> just took a riff from Philly Sound ( >> www.funkadelphiarecords.com), and flipped it. The result, is what you >> hear here. It's free, and open. No $!! >> You can download a better resolution version of the track here: >> >> >> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html >> >> Check it! >> >> Paul >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- From jjzeidner at gmail.com Wed May 5 01:34:48 2010 From: jjzeidner at gmail.com (Joshua Zeidner) Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 13:04:48 -0700 Subject: [Reader-list] PT 2 - Re: Public Enemy vs Arizona: Sonic Immigration In-Reply-To: <05E71D60-86EA-4483-85AC-9AFC7139C000@earthlink.net> References: <05E71D60-86EA-4483-85AC-9AFC7139C000@earthlink.net> Message-ID: "By the way, this is the first time Ive been called a racist and or someone who betrays my country. " there's a first time for everything. a much better song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5FCdx7Dn0o -jmz On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 1:01 PM, Paul D. Miller wrote: > By the way, this is the first time Ive been called a racist and or someone > who betrays my country. > > To the Sarai list - please excuse this strange exchange. > > But anyway, here's the lyrics to the song and a quick glance at the > discussion board will show that many people from all walks of life are > discussing this: > > By The Time I Get To Arizona Lyrics > Artist: *Public Enemy * > *Album: Apocalypse 91 - Dj Spooky remix 2010* > I'm countin' down to the day deservin' > Fittin' for a king > I'm waitin' for the time when I can > Get to Arizona > 'Cause my money's spent on > The goddamn rent > Neither party is mine not the > Jackass or the elephant > 20.000 nig niggy nigas in the corner > Of the cell block but they come > From California > Population none in the desert and sun > Wit' a gun cracker > Runnin' things under his thumb > Starin' hard at the postcards > Isn't it odd and unique? > Seein' people smile wild in the heat > 120 degree > 'Cause I wanna be free > What's a smilin' fact > When the whole state's racist > Why want a holiday F--k it 'cause I wanna > So what if I celebrate it standin' on a corner > I ain't drinkin' no 40 > I B thinkin' time wit' a nine > Until we get some land > Call me the trigger man > Looki lookin' for the governor > Huh he ain't lovin' ya > But here to trouble ya > He's rubbin' ya wrong > Get the point come along > > An he can get to the joint > I urinated on the state > While I was kickin' this song > Yeah, he appear to be fair > The cracker over there > He try to keep it yesteryear > The good ol' days > The same ol' ways > That kept us dyin' > Yes, you me myself and I'ndeed > What he need is a nosebleed > Read between the lines > Then you see the lie > Politically planned > But understand that's all she wrote > When we see the real side > That hide behind the vote > They can't understand why he the man > I'm singin' 'bout a king > They don't like it > When I decide to mike it > Wait I'm waitin' for the date > For the man who demands respect > 'Cause he was great c'mon > I'm on the one mission > To get a politician > To honor or he's a gonna > By the time I get to Arizona > > I got 25 days to do it > If a wall in the sky > Just watch me go thru it > 'Cause I gotta do what I gotta do > PE number one > Gets the job done > When it's done and over > Was because I drove'er > Thru all the static > Not stick but automatic > That's the way it is > He gotta get his > Talin' MLK > Gonna find a way > Make the state pay > Lookin' for the day > Hard as it seems > This ain't no damn dream > Gotta know what I mean > It's team against team > Catch the light beam > So I pray > I pray everyday > I do and praise jah the maker > Lookin' for culture > I got but not here > From jah maker > Pushin' and shakin' the structure > Bringin' down the babylon > Hearin' the sucker > That make it hard for the brown > The hard Boulova > I need now > More than ever now > Who's sittin' on my freedah' > Opressor people beater > Piece of the pick > We picked a piece > Of land that we deservin' now > Reparation a piece of the nation > And damn he got the nerve > Another niga they say and classify > We want too much > My peep plus the whole nine is mine > Don't think I even double dutch > Here's a brother my attitude hit 'em > Hang 'em high > Blowin' up the 90s started tickin' 86 > When the blind get a mind > Better start and earn while we sing it > Now > There will be the day we know those down and who will go > > Sent from my iPhone > > On May 4, 2010, at 3:22 PM, Joshua Zeidner < > jjzeidner at gmail.com> wrote: > > > I'm writing this from the Arizona Capitol. > > Paul, we don't want your racist politics here. Al Sharpton has nothing > in common with the illegal aliens. You are not only a traitor to your > country but a traitor to your own people. How can you turn against a > country that has given you so much? > > we do remember history. We remember it very well. > > Check it: > http://www.buffalosoldiermuseum.com/?linkid=410&webid=1000 > > -jmz > > > On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 12:10 PM, Paul D. Miller < > anansi1 at earthlink.net> wrote: > >> Hey people - I just finished a studio session with Chuck D from Public >> Enemy. In the wake of Republican Governor Jan Brewer's appalling >> anti-immigrant law, me and Chuck D were rappin' and we decided to put >> together an update of his classic track "By The Time I get To Arizona." >> >> You can download the track from here: >> >> >> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html >> >> >> Anyone who knows about hip hop from the early 90's remembers John McCain's >> unwillingness to endorse creating a local version of Martin Luther King's >> birthday. The update here is a 21st century look in the rear view mirror. >> The cliché that "those who don't learn from the past are doomed to repeat >> it" still holds sway in our hyper amnesiac culture. I remixed D.W. >> Griffith's infamous film Birth of a Nation with a bit of Public Enemy in >> mind, and later on, they named an e.p. with the same name as my project. Me >> and Chuck D have done several projects in the past around progressive, non >> knucklehead hip hop. >> >> Please feel free to download this track and pass it around. We are the >> media. Feel free to pass it around! >> >> By the way, this is a mashup, and it's basically not really for sale. I >> just took a riff from Philly Sound ( >> www.funkadelphiarecords.com), and flipped it. The result, is what you >> hear here. It's free, and open. No $!! >> You can download a better resolution version of the track here: >> >> >> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html >> >> Check it! >> >> Paul >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- From anansi1 at earthlink.net Wed May 5 01:58:42 2010 From: anansi1 at earthlink.net (Paul D. Miller) Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 16:28:42 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Public Enemy vs Arizona: Sonic Immigration In-Reply-To: References: <16454268.1273000244857.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rubis.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <43BEF6CD-4F08-4D70-8441-802751389456@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Again - this is strange non sense. 1) the track is a free giveaway so no paycheck etc Josh - this is stupid. Either up the level of the discourse or come up with something more interesting. I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone that would say either me or Chuck D are racist, and no, Flava Flav isn't on the track. So... What's your point? I'm just getting on a flight to Khartoum, Sudan for a project with ex child soldiers doing electronic music. Josh - if you would like to dialog about the merits of Arizona's immigration, that's ok. But being an asshole, as we've seen in Arizona, doesn't solve anyone's problems. By the way way, no, I'm not racist, and no, Public Enemy isn't racist. And I have nothing to do with Al Sharpton. Paul Sent from my iPhone On May 4, 2010, at 4:02 PM, Joshua Zeidner wrote: > > sorry for getting all up in your grill hommie, but racism cuts > both ways. > > maybe you can get Flavor Flav all up in hizouse too? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzhpB1X-6ok > > it's pretty simple that illegal aliens are modern day slavery and > they destroy the lives of white and black Americans alike. > Unfortunately we've got selllouts like you who are willing to say > anything for a paycheck. > > check ya later holmes, jmz > > > > > On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 12:48 PM, Paul D. Miller > wrote: > Very strange and reactionary response. > > Joshua - can you please enlighten me on my 'racist politics' and my > relationship to Al Sharpton? > > You're sounding a bit shrill and to be completely honest, totally > irrational. > > Paul > > > Sent from my iPhone > > On May 4, 2010, at 3:22 PM, Joshua Zeidner > wrote: > >> >> I'm writing this from the Arizona Capitol. >> >> Paul, we don't want your racist politics here. Al Sharpton has >> nothing in common with the illegal aliens. You are not only a >> traitor to your country but a traitor to your own people. How can >> you turn against a country that has given you so much? >> >> we do remember history. We remember it very well. >> >> Check it: http://www.buffalosoldiermuseum.com/?linkid=410&webid=1000 >> >> -jmz >> >> >> On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 12:10 PM, Paul D. Miller > > wrote: >> Hey people - I just finished a studio session with Chuck D from >> Public Enemy. In the wake of Republican Governor Jan Brewer's >> appalling anti-immigrant law, me and Chuck D were rappin' and we >> decided to put together an update of his classic track "By The Time >> I get To Arizona." >> >> You can download the track from here: >> >> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html >> >> >> Anyone who knows about hip hop from the early 90's remembers John >> McCain's unwillingness to endorse creating a local version of >> Martin Luther King's birthday. The update here is a 21st century >> look in the rear view mirror. The cliché that "those who don't lea >> rn from the past are doomed to repeat it" still holds sway in our >> hyper amnesiac culture. I remixed D.W. Griffith's infamous film Bi >> rth of a Nation with a bit of Public Enemy in mind, and later on, >> they named an e.p. with the same name as my project. Me and Chuck >> D have done several projects in the past around progressive, non >> knucklehead hip hop. >> >> Please feel free to download this track and pass it around. We are >> the media. Feel free to pass it around! >> >> By the way, this is a mashup, and it's basically not really for >> sale. I just took a riff from Philly Sound (www.funkadelphiarecords.com >> ), and flipped it. The result, is what you hear here. It's free, >> and open. No $!! >> You can download a better resolution version of the track here: >> >> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html >> >> Check it! >> >> Paul >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > -- > From yasir.media at gmail.com Wed May 5 03:34:50 2010 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?eWFzaXIgftmK2Kcg2LPYsQ==?=) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 03:04:50 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] 140,000 troops in FATA In-Reply-To: <000001caeb8c$0308d620$091a8260$@in> References: <525895.33880.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <000001caeb8c$0308d620$091a8260$@in> Message-ID: once again you have deliberately missed the point, as impossible as it is to do both at the same time. My point was about the people not the foreign policy, not the army, yet you choose to mix them up, because thats what you are refusing top separate, and see the separate entinities of the people, the army, the govts. we are not radically democratic, only mildly so electing the same people from the same classes, when the army is not actively interfering in the vote counts,or runninga martial regime.. i suggest you reread what i wrote. i dont find it of use to go in the directions you are suggesting, since you have missed the sole point of it. your nationalism blinds you to your own hierarchical and class realities, you cannot breathe without. in fact it shows your inability to speak about it. enough said. Buck up. perfect perfect perfect. On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 6:16 PM, Bipin Trivedi wrote: > Yes Kshemendra, you are perfectly right and good point of argument raised. > Keep it up. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net [mailto:reader-list-bounces at sarai.net] > On Behalf Of Kshmendra Kaul > Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 6:09 PM > To: Sarai Reader-list; yasir ~يا سر > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] 140,000 troops in FATA > > Dear Yasir > > From 'Blame-USA' you move to "Blame-India". "Land of the Pure", Pakistan's > favorite pastime; blame everyone else but itself. > > Your viewpoint of 'history' between India and Pakistan starts from 1971. > > Remember 1947-48 when Maharaja of Kashmir had to sign the "Instrument of > Accession" because Pakistan broke the "Standstill Agreement" which (unlike > India) it had signed on? In a manner of speaking, India did not 'eat up' > Kashmir but Pakistan offered it to India. > > Remember 1965 and Pakistan's 'Operation Gibraltar'? (Read Ikram Sehgal's > http://www.defencejournal.com/jul99/gibraltor-2.htm) > > Yet India was kind to Pakistan in 1971 and returned the 90,000 POWs without > getting anything in return. Rather the idiocy of Indira Gandhi in trusting > whatever Bhutto had promised her. > > Yet, the never to be trusted Pakistan went in for the sneaky Kargil > operation. > > Pakistan's build-up of Military capabilities (and connected Budgets) has as > much and more to do with it's Islamic ambitions ('thekedaar' of Islam) as it > has to do with threat perceptions from India that it itself has provoked. > > By your logic, with India's inimical relations with China, India should be > trying to match the Defence Budget of China and more since there are two > 'enemies' to contend with, China and Pakistan. > > India's defence expenditure happens to be a lower percentage of it's GDP > when compared to Pakistan. From 2.5% of GDP in 06-07, it has come dowm to > 2.30% in 09-10 and 2.12% in 10-11. > > And yes, please make up your mind. Did India 'eat up' Hyderabad&Junagad or > Kashmir? Any logic justifying claim of 'eat up' of one would contradict > itself when applied to the other. > > Kshmendra > > --- On Mon, 5/3/10, yasir ~يا سر wrote: > > > From: yasir ~يا سر > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] 140,000 troops in FATA > To: "Sarai Reader-list" > Date: Monday, May 3, 2010, 8:21 PM > > > no sorry you totally got that from an enemy perspective. please get this > right. > > if you ask us, we will tell you the following: > the people of pakistan are the real victim, when the govt of pakistan, the > pakistan army, sold itself to the united states, becoming a mercenary state > for them. the relation is completely one-sided. what development in real > terms have we seen, take any indicator. why are we worse off with many > systems existing and functioning back in the postpartition days woefully > nonexistent or malfunctional, let alone any new systems. the answer is > quite > severe. we have a military budget which has to deal with india which is > many > itimes its size and (had been) eadger to destabilize it after breaking it > up > into 2 in 1971, and which had earlier eaten up hyderabad and kashmir. so we > are now doomed to military spending which comes anyway from the US, leaving > little in the way of major public projects which could have benefited > people > at large. Government spending was eaten by the military. if you imagine > what > kind of a present society we could have been if we had not stuck to this > stupid military buildup (you can eveluate your own side). so the war on > terror is just another day, another cloud. but it follows the covert US > action in Afghanistan against the Soviets using Afghanis and Pakistanis > then > disappearing for a decade and showing up again this time because the > militancy the americans had started, charlie wilson's war starring tom > cruise, could not be put out and took the wtc with it. sorry there is no > conspiracy here. we are getting the blame 'for not doing enough' and then > we > have to deal with your pearls of wisdom strewn from across the border. > > so dear KK, we are not asking for blood money. we are saying: having > destroyed the region, you better build it up now, to what it should be > like. > i think this is not only possible, but also a moral responsility of the US > in no uncertain terms. and we dont trust them either because of this > history. > > best > > y > > > > > On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 5:50 PM, Kshmendra Kaul >wrote: > > > USA also pays "Blood Money" to Pakistan which Pakistan accepts very > > gratefully. > > > > In fact there is a constant clamour by many in Pakistan : "You are not > > paying us enough!!!! We want more!!!! We want more!!!!" > > > > --- On *Mon, 5/3/10, yasir ~يا سر * wrote: > > > > > > From: yasir ~يا سر > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] 140,000 troops in FATA > > To: "Sarai Reader-list" > > Date: Monday, May 3, 2010, 1:53 PM > > > > one needs to add much salt here: > > > > > > - reporters are not allowed, you only get the official army version > > - civilian casualties are 'normal', very high and not reported, > > including > > extra judicial killings and right violations > > - the number of internally displaced people is huge, frequently not > > taken > > care of by anyone let alone by govt > > - the motivation in no small measure comes from the US pressuring the > PK > > army to show that action is being taken, which frequently leads to > > unstable > > conditions, rather than working with local actors with a long term > view, > > while dealing with a guerrilla like militancy. > > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 11:30 AM, S. Jabbar http://us.mc572.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=sonia.jabbar at gmail.com>> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > FRONT-PAGE > > > ŒPakistan has moved 100,000 troops from eastern border¹ > > > > > > By Our Correspondent > > > > > > Friday, 30 Apr, 2010 | 01:38 AM PST | > > > > > > > > > WASHINGTON: Pakistan has deployed 140,000 troops in Fata, moving at > least > > > 100,000 soldiers from the Indian border to back up its Œunprecedented¹ > > > crackdown on militants along the Afghan border, says a Pentagon report. > > > > > > In its mandatory report to the US Congress on the situation in the > > > Pakistan-Afghan region, the Pentagon notes that the deployment is the > > > biggest in the country¹s history on the western border. > > > > > > ³This unprecedented deployment and thinning of the lines against India > > > indicates that Islamabad has acknowledged its domestic insurgent > threat.² > > > > > > The Pentagon also acknowledges that Pakistani military operations in > the > > > tribal regions have had an impact across the border, placing a ³high > > degree > > > of pressure on enemy forces and reduced insurgent safe haven² in > eastern > > > Afghanistan. > > > > > > The Pentagon informs Congress that recent arrests by Pakistan of Afghan > > > Taliban leaders, including the group¹s No. 2, Mullah Abdul Ghani > Baradar, > > > have ³increased insurgent leaders¹ concern over the security of their > > safe > > > havens² and created ³financial and logistical² problems for them. > > > > > > This assessment contrasts sharply with the Afghan claim ‹ backed by > India > > ‹ > > > that the arrests have weakened Kabul¹s efforts to seek a negotiated > > > settlement with the Taliban leadership. > > > > > > The report quotes a senior US defence official as saying that the > arrests > > > in > > > Pakistan produced ³a lot of concerned chatter² among Taliban > sympathisers > > > in > > > Afghanistan, but there¹s no indication of ³a leadership crisis in the > > > Taliban². > > > > > > The Pentagon notes that so far the crackdown in Pakistan is focused > > almost > > > exclusively on internal threats and that¹s why it¹s not having any > > > ³significant impact on the Afghan insurgency in the short term². > > > > > > But the crackdown ³offers opportunities in coming months to have a > > greater > > > impact on the conflict in Afghanistan depending on how PAKMIL > (Pakistani > > > military) operations evolve,² the report adds. > > > > > > ³Pakistan has suffered attacks from terrorists in response to its > > > successful > > > operations. These attacks include mass casualty events in Mingora, > South > > > Waziristan agency close to clearing operations as well as in Lahore, > far > > > away from the fighting. ³While these attacks do not appear to have > shaken > > > Pakistan¹s commitment, they do demonstrate, for the time being, > insurgent > > > ability to continue attacks despite successful Pakistani operations,² > the > > > report warns. > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/ > > > > > > > > > front-page/pakistan-has-moved-100,000-troops-from-indian-border-pentagon-040< > > > http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/%0Afront-page/pakistan-has-moved-100,000-troops-from-indian-border-pentagon-040 > > > > > > > > > > > Copyright © 2010 - Dawn Media Group > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net< > http://us.mc572.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=reader-list-request at sarai.net > >with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net< > http://us.mc572.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=reader-list-request at sarai.net>with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From jjzeidner at gmail.com Wed May 5 09:55:30 2010 From: jjzeidner at gmail.com (Joshua Zeidner) Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 21:25:30 -0700 Subject: [Reader-list] Public Enemy vs Arizona: Sonic Immigration In-Reply-To: References: <16454268.1273000244857.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rubis.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <43BEF6CD-4F08-4D70-8441-802751389456@earthlink.net> Message-ID: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcmjPgyN36g&NR=1 -jmz On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 1:28 PM, Paul D. Miller wrote: > Again - this is strange non sense. > 1) the track is a free giveaway so no paycheck etc > > Josh - this is stupid. Either up the level of the discourse or come up with > something more interesting. > > I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone that would say either me or > Chuck D are racist, and no, Flava Flav isn't on the track. So... > > What's your point? I'm just getting on a flight to Khartoum, Sudan for a > project with ex child soldiers doing electronic music. > > Josh - if you would like to dialog about the merits of Arizona's > immigration, that's ok. But being an asshole, as we've seen in Arizona, > doesn't solve anyone's problems. > > By the way way, no, I'm not racist, and no, Public Enemy isn't racist. > > And I have nothing to do with Al Sharpton. > > Paul > > Sent from my iPhone > > On May 4, 2010, at 4:02 PM, Joshua Zeidner wrote: > > > sorry for getting all up in your grill hommie, but racism cuts both ways. > > maybe you can get Flavor Flav all up in hizouse too? > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzhpB1X-6ok > > it's pretty simple that illegal aliens are modern day slavery and they > destroy the lives of white and black Americans alike. Unfortunately we've > got selllouts like you who are willing to say anything for a paycheck. > > check ya later holmes, jmz > > > > > On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 12:48 PM, Paul D. Miller < > anansi1 at earthlink.net> wrote: > >> Very strange and reactionary response. >> >> Joshua - can you please enlighten me on my 'racist politics' and my >> relationship to Al Sharpton? >> >> You're sounding a bit shrill and to be completely honest, totally >> irrational. >> >> Paul >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On May 4, 2010, at 3:22 PM, Joshua Zeidner < >> jjzeidner at gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> I'm writing this from the Arizona Capitol. >> >> Paul, we don't want your racist politics here. Al Sharpton has nothing >> in common with the illegal aliens. You are not only a traitor to your >> country but a traitor to your own people. How can you turn against a >> country that has given you so much? >> >> we do remember history. We remember it very well. >> >> Check it: >> http://www.buffalosoldiermuseum.com/?linkid=410&webid=1000 >> >> -jmz >> >> >> On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 12:10 PM, Paul D. Miller < >> anansi1 at earthlink.net> wrote: >> >>> Hey people - I just finished a studio session with Chuck D from Public >>> Enemy. In the wake of Republican Governor Jan Brewer's appalling >>> anti-immigrant law, me and Chuck D were rappin' and we decided to put >>> together an update of his classic track "By The Time I get To Arizona." >>> >>> You can download the track from here: >>> >>> >>> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html >>> >>> >>> Anyone who knows about hip hop from the early 90's remembers John >>> McCain's unwillingness to endorse creating a local version of Martin Luther >>> King's birthday. The update here is a 21st century look in the rear view >>> mirror. The cliché that "those who don't learn from the past are doomed to >>> repeat it" still holds sway in our hyper amnesiac culture. I remixed D.W. >>> Griffith's infamous film Birth of a Nation with a bit of Public Enemy in >>> mind, and later on, they named an e.p. with the same name as my project. Me >>> and Chuck D have done several projects in the past around progressive, non >>> knucklehead hip hop. >>> >>> Please feel free to download this track and pass it around. We are the >>> media. Feel free to pass it around! >>> >>> By the way, this is a mashup, and it's basically not really for sale. I >>> just took a riff from Philly Sound ( >>> www.funkadelphiarecords.com), and flipped it. The result, is what you >>> hear here. It's free, and open. No $!! >>> You can download a better resolution version of the track here: >>> >>> >>> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html >>> >>> Check it! >>> >>> Paul >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> > > > -- > > -- From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed May 5 10:01:50 2010 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 10:01:50 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] TIME FOR TOUGH STAND In-Reply-To: References: <000f01caeb7a$2c848420$858d8c60$@in> Message-ID: Has Col Puroshit been convicted by any of the court ? Or is it Shuddha trying to be mischievous ? Pawan On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 4:48 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > Dear Bipin, > > I think Kasab, Lt. Colonel Purohit, Sadhvi Pragya, the recently > detained RSS functionaries arrested for their connections to the > blasts in Hyderabad and Ajmer, and all others accused in terrorism > cases should all be able to exercise their rights as accused as per > the law. This includes the right to appeal to a higher court against > the sentences that may be awarded to them. This is a right given in > the Indian constitution to anyone accused in a court of law. Do you > want this right to be changed, so that Kasab and Lt. Colonel Purohit > both be sent to be hanged without the right of a proper defence? > > I hope that no one agrees with you, as that would amount to a gross > compromise with the standards of fairness and decency which all human > beings, regardless of their politics, need. > > best > > Shuddha > > On 04-May-10, at 4:38 PM, Bipin Trivedi wrote: > >> Though terrorist's Kasav case was crystal clear, but still we have >> gone for >> about 17 months fair trial and proved that how transparent our >> judicial >> system is unlike Pakistan. But, after this trial and judgment, he >> should not >> allow to appeal in the higher court and should be hanged in public >> immediately. India should show the world that country cannot >> compromise in >> integrity and take hard action if required like open public death >> sentence. >> >> >> >> Even betrayed Madhuri Gupta, who spied for Pakistan, should also >> punished >> death sentence without going to court of law since she admitted her >> allegation and proved guilty. >> >> >> >> Thanks >> >> Bipin >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From aliens at dataone.in Wed May 5 10:17:53 2010 From: aliens at dataone.in (Bipin Trivedi) Date: Wed, 05 May 2010 10:17:53 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] TIME FOR TOUGH STAND In-Reply-To: References: <000f01caeb7a$2c848420$858d8c60$@in> Message-ID: <000001caec0e$20585e80$61091b80$@in> That's what I have written that case is still going on Pawan and comparison irrelevant. Thanks for your input -----Original Message----- From: Pawan Durani [mailto:pawan.durani at gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2010 10:02 AM To: Shuddhabrata Sengupta Cc: Bipin Trivedi; sarai-list Subject: Re: [Reader-list] TIME FOR TOUGH STAND Has Col Puroshit been convicted by any of the court ? Or is it Shuddha trying to be mischievous ? Pawan On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 4:48 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > Dear Bipin, > > I think Kasab, Lt. Colonel Purohit, Sadhvi Pragya, the recently > detained RSS functionaries arrested for their connections to the > blasts in Hyderabad and Ajmer, and all others accused in terrorism > cases should all be able to exercise their rights as accused as per > the law. This includes the right to appeal to a higher court against > the sentences that may be awarded to them. This is a right given in > the Indian constitution to anyone accused in a court of law. Do you > want this right to be changed, so that Kasab and Lt. Colonel Purohit > both be sent to be hanged without the right of a proper defence? > > I hope that no one agrees with you, as that would amount to a gross > compromise with the standards of fairness and decency which all human > beings, regardless of their politics, need. > > best > > Shuddha > > On 04-May-10, at 4:38 PM, Bipin Trivedi wrote: > >> Though terrorist's Kasav case was crystal clear, but still we have >> gone for >> about 17 months fair trial and proved that how transparent our >> judicial >> system is unlike Pakistan. But, after this trial and judgment, he >> should not >> allow to appeal in the higher court and should be hanged in public >> immediately. India should show the world that country cannot >> compromise in >> integrity and take hard action if required like open public death >> sentence. >> >> >> >> Even betrayed Madhuri Gupta, who spied for Pakistan, should also >> punished >> death sentence without going to court of law since she admitted her >> allegation and proved guilty. >> >> >> >> Thanks >> >> Bipin >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From udaimalhotra at gmail.com Wed May 5 10:32:17 2010 From: udaimalhotra at gmail.com (Udai Malhotra) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 10:32:17 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Public Enemy vs Arizona: Sonic Immigration In-Reply-To: References: <16454268.1273000244857.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rubis.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <43BEF6CD-4F08-4D70-8441-802751389456@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Dear Joshua, What is the point you are trying to make by linking to this video? If anything it is reinforcing that you are on some straight ignorant shit. - Udai On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 9:55 AM, Joshua Zeidner wrote: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcmjPgyN36g&NR=1 > > -jmz > > On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 1:28 PM, Paul D. Miller >wrote: > > > Again - this is strange non sense. > > 1) the track is a free giveaway so no paycheck etc > > > > Josh - this is stupid. Either up the level of the discourse or come up > with > > something more interesting. > > > > I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone that would say either me or > > Chuck D are racist, and no, Flava Flav isn't on the track. So... > > > > What's your point? I'm just getting on a flight to Khartoum, Sudan for a > > project with ex child soldiers doing electronic music. > > > > Josh - if you would like to dialog about the merits of Arizona's > > immigration, that's ok. But being an asshole, as we've seen in Arizona, > > doesn't solve anyone's problems. > > > > By the way way, no, I'm not racist, and no, Public Enemy isn't racist. > > > > And I have nothing to do with Al Sharpton. > > > > Paul > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > On May 4, 2010, at 4:02 PM, Joshua Zeidner wrote: > > > > > > sorry for getting all up in your grill hommie, but racism cuts both > ways. > > > > maybe you can get Flavor Flav all up in hizouse too? > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzhpB1X-6ok > > > > it's pretty simple that illegal aliens are modern day slavery and they > > destroy the lives of white and black Americans alike. Unfortunately > we've > > got selllouts like you who are willing to say anything for a paycheck. > > > > check ya later holmes, jmz > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 12:48 PM, Paul D. Miller < > > > anansi1 at earthlink.net> wrote: > > > >> Very strange and reactionary response. > >> > >> Joshua - can you please enlighten me on my 'racist politics' and my > >> relationship to Al Sharpton? > >> > >> You're sounding a bit shrill and to be completely honest, totally > >> irrational. > >> > >> Paul > >> > >> > >> Sent from my iPhone > >> > >> On May 4, 2010, at 3:22 PM, Joshua Zeidner < > >> jjzeidner at gmail.com> wrote: > >> > >> > >> I'm writing this from the Arizona Capitol. > >> > >> Paul, we don't want your racist politics here. Al Sharpton has > nothing > >> in common with the illegal aliens. You are not only a traitor to your > >> country but a traitor to your own people. How can you turn against a > >> country that has given you so much? > >> > >> we do remember history. We remember it very well. > >> > >> Check it: < > http://www.buffalosoldiermuseum.com/?linkid=410&webid=1000>< > http://www.buffalosoldiermuseum.com/?linkid=410&webid=1000> > >> http://www.buffalosoldiermuseum.com/?linkid=410&webid=1000 > >> > >> -jmz > >> > >> > >> On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 12:10 PM, Paul D. Miller < < > anansi1 at earthlink.net> > >> anansi1 at earthlink.net> wrote: > >> > >>> Hey people - I just finished a studio session with Chuck D from Public > >>> Enemy. In the wake of Republican Governor Jan Brewer's appalling > >>> anti-immigrant law, me and Chuck D were rappin' and we decided to put > >>> together an update of his classic track "By The Time I get To Arizona." > >>> > >>> You can download the track from here: > >>> > >>> < > http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html> > >>> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html > >>> > >>> > >>> Anyone who knows about hip hop from the early 90's remembers John > >>> McCain's unwillingness to endorse creating a local version of Martin > Luther > >>> King's birthday. The update here is a 21st century look in the rear > view > >>> mirror. The cliché that "those who don't learn from the past are doomed > to > >>> repeat it" still holds sway in our hyper amnesiac culture. I remixed > D.W. > >>> Griffith's infamous film Birth of a Nation with a bit of Public Enemy > in > >>> mind, and later on, they named an e.p. with the same name as my > project. Me > >>> and Chuck D have done several projects in the past around progressive, > non > >>> knucklehead hip hop. > >>> > >>> Please feel free to download this track and pass it around. We are the > >>> media. Feel free to pass it around! > >>> > >>> By the way, this is a mashup, and it's basically not really for sale. I > >>> just took a riff from Philly Sound (< > http://www.funkadelphiarecords.com> > >>> www.funkadelphiarecords.com), and flipped it. The result, is what you > >>> hear here. It's free, and open. No $!! > >>> You can download a better resolution version of the track here: > >>> > >>> < > http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html> > >>> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html > >>> > >>> Check it! > >>> > >>> Paul > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > -- > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From jjzeidner at gmail.com Wed May 5 10:36:20 2010 From: jjzeidner at gmail.com (Joshua Zeidner) Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 22:06:20 -0700 Subject: [Reader-list] Public Enemy vs Arizona: Sonic Immigration In-Reply-To: References: <16454268.1273000244857.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rubis.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <43BEF6CD-4F08-4D70-8441-802751389456@earthlink.net> Message-ID: http://www.diggersrealm.com/mt/archives/003376.html On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 10:02 PM, Udai Malhotra wrote: > Dear Joshua, > > What is the point you are trying to make by linking to this video? If > anything it is reinforcing that you are on some straight ignorant shit. > > - Udai > > On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 9:55 AM, Joshua Zeidner wrote: > >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcmjPgyN36g&NR=1 >> >> -jmz >> >> On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 1:28 PM, Paul D. Miller > >wrote: >> >> > Again - this is strange non sense. >> > 1) the track is a free giveaway so no paycheck etc >> > >> > Josh - this is stupid. Either up the level of the discourse or come up >> with >> > something more interesting. >> > >> > I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone that would say either me >> or >> > Chuck D are racist, and no, Flava Flav isn't on the track. So... >> > >> > What's your point? I'm just getting on a flight to Khartoum, Sudan for a >> > project with ex child soldiers doing electronic music. >> > >> > Josh - if you would like to dialog about the merits of Arizona's >> > immigration, that's ok. But being an asshole, as we've seen in Arizona, >> > doesn't solve anyone's problems. >> > >> > By the way way, no, I'm not racist, and no, Public Enemy isn't racist. >> > >> > And I have nothing to do with Al Sharpton. >> > >> > Paul >> > >> > Sent from my iPhone >> > >> > On May 4, 2010, at 4:02 PM, Joshua Zeidner wrote: >> > >> > >> > sorry for getting all up in your grill hommie, but racism cuts both >> ways. >> > >> > maybe you can get Flavor Flav all up in hizouse too? >> > >> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzhpB1X-6ok >> > >> > it's pretty simple that illegal aliens are modern day slavery and they >> > destroy the lives of white and black Americans alike. Unfortunately >> we've >> > got selllouts like you who are willing to say anything for a paycheck. >> > >> > check ya later holmes, jmz >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 12:48 PM, Paul D. Miller < < >> anansi1 at earthlink.net> >> > anansi1 at earthlink.net> wrote: >> > >> >> Very strange and reactionary response. >> >> >> >> Joshua - can you please enlighten me on my 'racist politics' and my >> >> relationship to Al Sharpton? >> >> >> >> You're sounding a bit shrill and to be completely honest, totally >> >> irrational. >> >> >> >> Paul >> >> >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> >> >> On May 4, 2010, at 3:22 PM, Joshua Zeidner < >> >> jjzeidner at gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> I'm writing this from the Arizona Capitol. >> >> >> >> Paul, we don't want your racist politics here. Al Sharpton has >> nothing >> >> in common with the illegal aliens. You are not only a traitor to your >> >> country but a traitor to your own people. How can you turn against a >> >> country that has given you so much? >> >> >> >> we do remember history. We remember it very well. >> >> >> >> Check it: < >> http://www.buffalosoldiermuseum.com/?linkid=410&webid=1000>< >> http://www.buffalosoldiermuseum.com/?linkid=410&webid=1000> >> >> >> http://www.buffalosoldiermuseum.com/?linkid=410&webid=1000 >> >> >> >> -jmz >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 12:10 PM, Paul D. Miller < < >> anansi1 at earthlink.net> >> >> >> anansi1 at earthlink.net> wrote: >> >> >> >>> Hey people - I just finished a studio session with Chuck D from Public >> >>> Enemy. In the wake of Republican Governor Jan Brewer's appalling >> >>> anti-immigrant law, me and Chuck D were rappin' and we decided to put >> >>> together an update of his classic track "By The Time I get To >> Arizona." >> >>> >> >>> You can download the track from here: >> >>> >> >>> < >> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html> >> >> >>> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Anyone who knows about hip hop from the early 90's remembers John >> >>> McCain's unwillingness to endorse creating a local version of Martin >> Luther >> >>> King's birthday. The update here is a 21st century look in the rear >> view >> >>> mirror. The cliché that "those who don't learn from the past are >> doomed to >> >>> repeat it" still holds sway in our hyper amnesiac culture. I remixed >> D.W. >> >>> Griffith's infamous film Birth of a Nation with a bit of Public Enemy >> in >> >>> mind, and later on, they named an e.p. with the same name as my >> project. Me >> >>> and Chuck D have done several projects in the past around progressive, >> non >> >>> knucklehead hip hop. >> >>> >> >>> Please feel free to download this track and pass it around. We are the >> >>> media. Feel free to pass it around! >> >>> >> >>> By the way, this is a mashup, and it's basically not really for sale. >> I >> >>> just took a riff from Philly Sound (< >> http://www.funkadelphiarecords.com> >> >> >>> www.funkadelphiarecords.com), and flipped it. The result, is what you >> >>> hear here. It's free, and open. No $!! >> >>> You can download a better resolution version of the track here: >> >>> >> >>> < >> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html> >> >>> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html >> >>> >> >>> Check it! >> >>> >> >>> Paul >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> > >> > >> > -- >> > >> > >> >> >> -- >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > -- From jeebesh at sarai.net Wed May 5 11:00:28 2010 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 11:00:28 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Ning Phase out Free Networks Message-ID: <96BD6386-E8C9-4EFB-B831-9E63EDBA5F78@sarai.net> The Ning network, an extremely useful software for network based work has decided to close all free networks running on it. some in the reader-list had suggested that we shift to ning a year ago. we had felt that Ning was not suitable for the sarai list kind of environment and the not to stable decisions in many web platforms to shift to full commercial transactions. but this is not a good move by ning. it has some extremely good social knowledge networks and would be a big loss. warmly jeebesh > You have received this email because you created a Ning Network. > > Hello! > > We’re writing today to let you know about some new and exciting > changes coming to Ning. In July, we’re doing two very important > things: > > 1. We'll be phasing out all free Ning Networks. > > We want to provide a new level of innovation to Network Creators — > and build all the valuable features Network Creators have asked us > to. To get there, we need to focus 100% on paid Ning Networks. This > phasing out of free services won’t happen until July, so you’ll have > plenty of time to weigh your options. We’ll do our best to provide > you with a migration path if you don’t wish to continue with Ning, > but we’d love to have you come along for all of the exciting future > developments. > > 2. We're introducing new plans and pricing. > > To help make it easy for you to come along with us, we’ve created > new plans for every kind of Ning Network: big, small and in between. > We think you’ll find these new options affordable for almost every > budget — as little as $3/month. That’s an unprecedented deal that > even allows you to go ad-free. > > The plans will be available in July, but you can get a sneak peek at > the details here. > > What does this mean for my Ning Network? > > While nothing is going to be changing today, we encourage you to > check out the upcoming plans. If you don’t wish to continue as a > Network Creator, we’ll be following up with you in the coming weeks > to provide you with details on how to close out or migrate your Ning > Network. You’ll have plenty of time to make the best decision for > you and your members, and we’ll do our best to make that decision as > easy as possible. > > What if I have more questions? > > We thought you might! We've put together a list of FAQs that will > help answer many of your questions. Nothing will be changing > immediately, and we'll be contacting you again via email with more > details. > > Sincerely, > > Jason Rosenthal > CEO, Ning, Inc. > If you do not wish to receive further email notifications like this > one, please unsubscribe . > © 2009, Ning Inc., 285 Hamilton Avenue, Suite 400, Palo Alto, CA 94301 > _______________________________________________ commons-law mailing list commons-law at mail.sarai.net http://mail.sarai.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/commons-law From aliens at dataone.in Wed May 5 12:13:50 2010 From: aliens at dataone.in (Bipin Trivedi) Date: Wed, 05 May 2010 12:13:50 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 140,000 troops in FATA In-Reply-To: References: <525895.33880.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <000001caeb8c$0308d620$091a8260$@in> Message-ID: <000301caec1e$55eb04c0$01c10e40$@in> Dear Yasir, How can you make people and others separate? From where foreign policy maker or politician and army comes? Ultimately they come from public only and they are citizen of Pakistan. Generation after generation came as politician and army and these new generation is from people only who is now policy maker or in army. So, its ultimately echo of Pakistan people only. Please understand these real truth before making such argument of separating the both. Thanks Bipin -----Original Message----- From: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net [mailto:reader-list-bounces at sarai.net] On Behalf Of yasir ~?? ?? Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2010 3:35 AM To: Sarai Reader-list Subject: Re: [Reader-list] 140,000 troops in FATA once again you have deliberately missed the point, as impossible as it is to do both at the same time. My point was about the people not the foreign policy, not the army, yet you choose to mix them up, because thats what you are refusing top separate, and see the separate entinities of the people, the army, the govts. we are not radically democratic, only mildly so electing the same people from the same classes, when the army is not actively interfering in the vote counts,or runninga martial regime.. i suggest you reread what i wrote. i dont find it of use to go in the directions you are suggesting, since you have missed the sole point of it. your nationalism blinds you to your own hierarchical and class realities, you cannot breathe without. in fact it shows your inability to speak about it. enough said. Buck up. perfect perfect perfect. On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 6:16 PM, Bipin Trivedi wrote: > Yes Kshemendra, you are perfectly right and good point of argument raised. > Keep it up. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net [mailto:reader-list-bounces at sarai.net] > On Behalf Of Kshmendra Kaul > Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 6:09 PM > To: Sarai Reader-list; yasir ~يا سر > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] 140,000 troops in FATA > > Dear Yasir > > From 'Blame-USA' you move to "Blame-India". "Land of the Pure", Pakistan's > favorite pastime; blame everyone else but itself. > > Your viewpoint of 'history' between India and Pakistan starts from 1971. > > Remember 1947-48 when Maharaja of Kashmir had to sign the "Instrument of > Accession" because Pakistan broke the "Standstill Agreement" which (unlike > India) it had signed on? In a manner of speaking, India did not 'eat up' > Kashmir but Pakistan offered it to India. > > Remember 1965 and Pakistan's 'Operation Gibraltar'? (Read Ikram Sehgal's > http://www.defencejournal.com/jul99/gibraltor-2.htm) > > Yet India was kind to Pakistan in 1971 and returned the 90,000 POWs without > getting anything in return. Rather the idiocy of Indira Gandhi in trusting > whatever Bhutto had promised her. > > Yet, the never to be trusted Pakistan went in for the sneaky Kargil > operation. > > Pakistan's build-up of Military capabilities (and connected Budgets) has as > much and more to do with it's Islamic ambitions ('thekedaar' of Islam) as it > has to do with threat perceptions from India that it itself has provoked. > > By your logic, with India's inimical relations with China, India should be > trying to match the Defence Budget of China and more since there are two > 'enemies' to contend with, China and Pakistan. > > India's defence expenditure happens to be a lower percentage of it's GDP > when compared to Pakistan. From 2.5% of GDP in 06-07, it has come dowm to > 2.30% in 09-10 and 2.12% in 10-11. > > And yes, please make up your mind. Did India 'eat up' Hyderabad&Junagad or > Kashmir? Any logic justifying claim of 'eat up' of one would contradict > itself when applied to the other. > > Kshmendra > > --- On Mon, 5/3/10, yasir ~يا سر wrote: > > > From: yasir ~يا سر > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] 140,000 troops in FATA > To: "Sarai Reader-list" > Date: Monday, May 3, 2010, 8:21 PM > > > no sorry you totally got that from an enemy perspective. please get this > right. > > if you ask us, we will tell you the following: > the people of pakistan are the real victim, when the govt of pakistan, the > pakistan army, sold itself to the united states, becoming a mercenary state > for them. the relation is completely one-sided. what development in real > terms have we seen, take any indicator. why are we worse off with many > systems existing and functioning back in the postpartition days woefully > nonexistent or malfunctional, let alone any new systems. the answer is > quite > severe. we have a military budget which has to deal with india which is > many > itimes its size and (had been) eadger to destabilize it after breaking it > up > into 2 in 1971, and which had earlier eaten up hyderabad and kashmir. so we > are now doomed to military spending which comes anyway from the US, leaving > little in the way of major public projects which could have benefited > people > at large. Government spending was eaten by the military. if you imagine > what > kind of a present society we could have been if we had not stuck to this > stupid military buildup (you can eveluate your own side). so the war on > terror is just another day, another cloud. but it follows the covert US > action in Afghanistan against the Soviets using Afghanis and Pakistanis > then > disappearing for a decade and showing up again this time because the > militancy the americans had started, charlie wilson's war starring tom > cruise, could not be put out and took the wtc with it. sorry there is no > conspiracy here. we are getting the blame 'for not doing enough' and then > we > have to deal with your pearls of wisdom strewn from across the border. > > so dear KK, we are not asking for blood money. we are saying: having > destroyed the region, you better build it up now, to what it should be > like. > i think this is not only possible, but also a moral responsility of the US > in no uncertain terms. and we dont trust them either because of this > history. > > best > > y > > > > > On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 5:50 PM, Kshmendra Kaul >wrote: > > > USA also pays "Blood Money" to Pakistan which Pakistan accepts very > > gratefully. > > > > In fact there is a constant clamour by many in Pakistan : "You are not > > paying us enough!!!! We want more!!!! We want more!!!!" > > > > --- On *Mon, 5/3/10, yasir ~يا سر * wrote: > > > > > > From: yasir ~يا سر > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] 140,000 troops in FATA > > To: "Sarai Reader-list" > > Date: Monday, May 3, 2010, 1:53 PM > > > > one needs to add much salt here: > > > > > > - reporters are not allowed, you only get the official army version > > - civilian casualties are 'normal', very high and not reported, > > including > > extra judicial killings and right violations > > - the number of internally displaced people is huge, frequently not > > taken > > care of by anyone let alone by govt > > - the motivation in no small measure comes from the US pressuring the > PK > > army to show that action is being taken, which frequently leads to > > unstable > > conditions, rather than working with local actors with a long term > view, > > while dealing with a guerrilla like militancy. > > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 11:30 AM, S. Jabbar http://us.mc572.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=sonia.jabbar at gmail.com>> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > FRONT-PAGE > > > ŒPakistan has moved 100,000 troops from eastern border¹ > > > > > > By Our Correspondent > > > > > > Friday, 30 Apr, 2010 | 01:38 AM PST | > > > > > > > > > WASHINGTON: Pakistan has deployed 140,000 troops in Fata, moving at > least > > > 100,000 soldiers from the Indian border to back up its Œunprecedented¹ > > > crackdown on militants along the Afghan border, says a Pentagon report. > > > > > > In its mandatory report to the US Congress on the situation in the > > > Pakistan-Afghan region, the Pentagon notes that the deployment is the > > > biggest in the country¹s history on the western border. > > > > > > ³This unprecedented deployment and thinning of the lines against India > > > indicates that Islamabad has acknowledged its domestic insurgent > threat.² > > > > > > The Pentagon also acknowledges that Pakistani military operations in > the > > > tribal regions have had an impact across the border, placing a ³high > > degree > > > of pressure on enemy forces and reduced insurgent safe haven² in > eastern > > > Afghanistan. > > > > > > The Pentagon informs Congress that recent arrests by Pakistan of Afghan > > > Taliban leaders, including the group¹s No. 2, Mullah Abdul Ghani > Baradar, > > > have ³increased insurgent leaders¹ concern over the security of their > > safe > > > havens² and created ³financial and logistical² problems for them. > > > > > > This assessment contrasts sharply with the Afghan claim ‹ backed by > India > > ‹ > > > that the arrests have weakened Kabul¹s efforts to seek a negotiated > > > settlement with the Taliban leadership. > > > > > > The report quotes a senior US defence official as saying that the > arrests > > > in > > > Pakistan produced ³a lot of concerned chatter² among Taliban > sympathisers > > > in > > > Afghanistan, but there¹s no indication of ³a leadership crisis in the > > > Taliban². > > > > > > The Pentagon notes that so far the crackdown in Pakistan is focused > > almost > > > exclusively on internal threats and that¹s why it¹s not having any > > > ³significant impact on the Afghan insurgency in the short term². > > > > > > But the crackdown ³offers opportunities in coming months to have a > > greater > > > impact on the conflict in Afghanistan depending on how PAKMIL > (Pakistani > > > military) operations evolve,² the report adds. > > > > > > ³Pakistan has suffered attacks from terrorists in response to its > > > successful > > > operations. These attacks include mass casualty events in Mingora, > South > > > Waziristan agency close to clearing operations as well as in Lahore, > far > > > away from the fighting. ³While these attacks do not appear to have > shaken > > > Pakistan¹s commitment, they do demonstrate, for the time being, > insurgent > > > ability to continue attacks despite successful Pakistani operations,² > the > > > report warns. > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/ > > > > > > > > > front-page/pakistan-has-moved-100,000-troops-from-indian-border-pentagon-040< > > > http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/%0Afront-page/pakistan-has-moved-100,000-troops-from-indian-border-pentagon-040 > > > > > > > > > > > Copyright © 2010 - Dawn Media Group > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net< > http://us.mc572.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=reader-list-request at sarai.net > >with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net< > http://us.mc572.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=reader-list-request at sarai.net>with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From anansi1 at earthlink.net Wed May 5 12:14:57 2010 From: anansi1 at earthlink.net (Paul D. Miller) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 08:44:57 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] Public Enemy vs Arizona: Sonic Immigration In-Reply-To: References: <16454268.1273000244857.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rubis.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <43BEF6CD-4F08-4D70-8441-802751389456@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3BEF4339-3AD2-43F2-87EC-134B58456945@earthlink.net> I'm transferring at Frankfurt airport, and took a quick glance at this video. I find it sad and appalling. It's galvinized me as an African American to build even more bridges between communities. Minorities only get played against one another when this kind of thing happens, and the end result is everyone loses. This kind of stuff is so dumb, it's ridiculous. It really saddens me to see fellow African Americans being played by right wing types. Paul Sent from my iPhone On May 5, 2010, at 7:02 AM, Udai Malhotra wrote: > Dear Joshua, > > What is the point you are trying to make by linking to this video? > If anything it is reinforcing that you are on some straight ignorant > shit. > > - Udai > > On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 9:55 AM, Joshua Zeidner > wrote: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcmjPgyN36g&NR=1 > > -jmz > > On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 1:28 PM, Paul D. Miller > wrote: > > > Again - this is strange non sense. > > 1) the track is a free giveaway so no paycheck etc > > > > Josh - this is stupid. Either up the level of the discourse or > come up with > > something more interesting. > > > > I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone that would say > either me or > > Chuck D are racist, and no, Flava Flav isn't on the track. So... > > > > What's your point? I'm just getting on a flight to Khartoum, Sudan > for a > > project with ex child soldiers doing electronic music. > > > > Josh - if you would like to dialog about the merits of Arizona's > > immigration, that's ok. But being an asshole, as we've seen in > Arizona, > > doesn't solve anyone's problems. > > > > By the way way, no, I'm not racist, and no, Public Enemy isn't > racist. > > > > And I have nothing to do with Al Sharpton. > > > > Paul > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > On May 4, 2010, at 4:02 PM, Joshua Zeidner > wrote: > > > > > > sorry for getting all up in your grill hommie, but racism cuts > both ways. > > > > maybe you can get Flavor Flav all up in hizouse too? > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzhpB1X-6ok > > > > it's pretty simple that illegal aliens are modern day slavery > and they > > destroy the lives of white and black Americans alike. > Unfortunately we've > > got selllouts like you who are willing to say anything for a > paycheck. > > > > check ya later holmes, jmz > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 12:48 PM, Paul D. Miller < > > > anansi1 at earthlink.net> wrote: > > > >> Very strange and reactionary response. > >> > >> Joshua - can you please enlighten me on my 'racist politics' and my > >> relationship to Al Sharpton? > >> > >> You're sounding a bit shrill and to be completely honest, totally > >> irrational. > >> > >> Paul > >> > >> > >> Sent from my iPhone > >> > >> On May 4, 2010, at 3:22 PM, Joshua Zeidner < > >> jjzeidner at gmail.com> wrote: > >> > >> > >> I'm writing this from the Arizona Capitol. > >> > >> Paul, we don't want your racist politics here. Al Sharpton has > nothing > >> in common with the illegal aliens. You are not only a traitor to > your > >> country but a traitor to your own people. How can you turn > against a > >> country that has given you so much? > >> > >> we do remember history. We remember it very well. > >> > >> Check it: > > >> http://www.buffalosoldiermuseum.com/?linkid=410&webid=1000 > >> > >> -jmz > >> > >> > >> On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 12:10 PM, Paul D. Miller < > > >> anansi1 at earthlink.net> wrote: > >> > >>> Hey people - I just finished a studio session with Chuck D from > Public > >>> Enemy. In the wake of Republican Governor Jan Brewer's appalling > >>> anti-immigrant law, me and Chuck D were rappin' and we decided > to put > >>> together an update of his classic track "By The Time I get To > Arizona." > >>> > >>> You can download the track from here: > >>> > >>> > > >>> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html > >>> > >>> > >>> Anyone who knows about hip hop from the early 90's remembers John > >>> McCain's unwillingness to endorse creating a local version of > Martin Luther > >>> King's birthday. The update here is a 21st century look in the > rear view > >>> mirror. The cliché that "those who don't learn from the past are > doomed to > >>> repeat it" still holds sway in our hyper amnesiac culture. I > remixed D.W. > >>> Griffith's infamous film Birth of a Nation with a bit of Public > Enemy in > >>> mind, and later on, they named an e.p. with the same name as my > project. Me > >>> and Chuck D have done several projects in the past around > progressive, non > >>> knucklehead hip hop. > >>> > >>> Please feel free to download this track and pass it around. We > are the > >>> media. Feel free to pass it around! > >>> > >>> By the way, this is a mashup, and it's basically not really for > sale. I > >>> just took a riff from Philly Sound ( > > >>> www.funkadelphiarecords.com), and flipped it. The result, is > what you > >>> hear here. It's free, and open. No $!! > >>> You can download a better resolution version of the track here: > >>> > >>> > > >>> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html > >>> > >>> Check it! > >>> > >>> Paul > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > -- > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From cubbykabi at yahoo.com Wed May 5 12:56:06 2010 From: cubbykabi at yahoo.com (kabi cubby sherman) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 12:56:06 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Public Enemy vs Arizona: Sonic Immigration In-Reply-To: <3BEF4339-3AD2-43F2-87EC-134B58456945@earthlink.net> References: <16454268.1273000244857.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rubis.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <43BEF6CD-4F08-4D70-8441-802751389456@earthlink.net> <3BEF4339-3AD2-43F2-87EC-134B58456945@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <694027.90574.qm@web94709.mail.in2.yahoo.com> that is ted hayes in the video. interesting person in Los Angeles history. complicated. he started out in very activist work, good work, with the homeless. now he is a republican, has been anti-immigrant for awhile, was pro-bush, ran for mayor against maxine waters (and lost by a tsunami of votes). he doesn't have any credence in the LA political scene, from any side, including his fellow republicans. he is out there pretty much all by himself but seems to have fun taking some very strange positions on things. there were very few people marching down that street. mostly some youth who in their frustration, very simple rhetoric and blame, can make sense, instead of an analysis of power and solidarity and sense. best kabi Meter Down - काली पीली की कहानी blog: http://meterdown.wordpress.com podcast: http://feeds2.feedburner.com/meterdown ________________________________ From: Paul D. Miller To: Udai Malhotra Cc: "reader-list at sarai.net" Sent: Wed, 5 May, 2010 12:14:57 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Public Enemy vs Arizona: Sonic Immigration I'm transferring at Frankfurt airport, and took a quick glance at this video. I find it sad and appalling. It's galvinized me as an African American to build even more bridges between communities. Minorities only get played against one another when this kind of thing happens, and the end result is everyone loses. This kind of stuff is so dumb, it's ridiculous. It really saddens me to see fellow African Americans being played by right wing types. Paul Sent from my iPhone On May 5, 2010, at 7:02 AM, Udai Malhotra wrote: > Dear Joshua, > > What is the point you are trying to make by linking to this video? > If anything it is reinforcing that you are on some straight ignorant > shit. > > - Udai > > On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 9:55 AM, Joshua Zeidner > wrote: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcmjPgyN36g&NR=1 > > -jmz > > On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 1:28 PM, Paul D. Miller > wrote: > > > Again - this is strange non sense. > > 1) the track is a free giveaway so no paycheck etc > > > > Josh - this is stupid. Either up the level of the discourse or > come up with > > something more interesting. > > > > I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone that would say > either me or > > Chuck D are racist, and no, Flava Flav isn't on the track. So... > > > > What's your point? I'm just getting on a flight to Khartoum, Sudan > for a > > project with ex child soldiers doing electronic music. > > > > Josh - if you would like to dialog about the merits of Arizona's > > immigration, that's ok. But being an asshole, as we've seen in > Arizona, > > doesn't solve anyone's problems. > > > > By the way way, no, I'm not racist, and no, Public Enemy isn't > racist. > > > > And I have nothing to do with Al Sharpton. > > > > Paul > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > On May 4, 2010, at 4:02 PM, Joshua Zeidner > wrote: > > > > > > sorry for getting all up in your grill hommie, but racism cuts > both ways. > > > > maybe you can get Flavor Flav all up in hizouse too? > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzhpB1X-6ok > > > > it's pretty simple that illegal aliens are modern day slavery > and they > > destroy the lives of white and black Americans alike. > Unfortunately we've > > got selllouts like you who are willing to say anything for a > paycheck. > > > > check ya later holmes, jmz > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 12:48 PM, Paul D. Miller < > > > anansi1 at earthlink.net> wrote: > > > >> Very strange and reactionary response. > >> > >> Joshua - can you please enlighten me on my 'racist politics' and my > >> relationship to Al Sharpton? > >> > >> You're sounding a bit shrill and to be completely honest, totally > >> irrational. > >> > >> Paul > >> > >> > >> Sent from my iPhone > >> > >> On May 4, 2010, at 3:22 PM, Joshua Zeidner < > >> jjzeidner at gmail.com> wrote: > >> > >> > >> I'm writing this from the Arizona Capitol. > >> > >> Paul, we don't want your racist politics here. Al Sharpton has > nothing > >> in common with the illegal aliens. You are not only a traitor to > your > >> country but a traitor to your own people. How can you turn > against a > >> country that has given you so much? > >> > >> we do remember history. We remember it very well. > >> > >> Check it: > > >> http://www.buffalosoldiermuseum.com/?linkid=410&webid=1000 > >> > >> -jmz > >> > >> > >> On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 12:10 PM, Paul D. Miller < > > >> anansi1 at earthlink.net> wrote: > >> > >>> Hey people - I just finished a studio session with Chuck D from > Public > >>> Enemy. In the wake of Republican Governor Jan Brewer's appalling > >>> anti-immigrant law, me and Chuck D were rappin' and we decided > to put > >>> together an update of his classic track "By The Time I get To > Arizona." > >>> > >>> You can download the track from here: > >>> > >>> > > >>> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html > >>> > >>> > >>> Anyone who knows about hip hop from the early 90's remembers John > >>> McCain's unwillingness to endorse creating a local version of > Martin Luther > >>> King's birthday. The update here is a 21st century look in the > rear view > >>> mirror. The cliché that "those who don't learn from the past are > doomed to > >>> repeat it" still holds sway in our hyper amnesiac culture. I > remixed D.W. > >>> Griffith's infamous film Birth of a Nation with a bit of Public > Enemy in > >>> mind, and later on, they named an e.p. with the same name as my > project. Me > >>> and Chuck D have done several projects in the past around > progressive, non > >>> knucklehead hip hop. > >>> > >>> Please feel free to download this track and pass it around. We > are the > >>> media. Feel free to pass it around! > >>> > >>> By the way, this is a mashup, and it's basically not really for > sale. I > >>> just took a riff from Philly Sound ( > > >>> www.funkadelphiarecords.com), and flipped it. The result, is > what you > >>> hear here. It's free, and open. No $!! > >>> You can download a better resolution version of the track here: > >>> > >>> > > >>> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html > >>> > >>> Check it! > >>> > >>> Paul > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > -- > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From yasir.media at gmail.com Wed May 5 12:59:28 2010 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?eWFzaXIgftmK2Kcg2LPYsQ==?=) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 12:29:28 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] 140,000 troops in FATA In-Reply-To: <000301caec1e$55eb04c0$01c10e40$@in> References: <525895.33880.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <000001caeb8c$0308d620$091a8260$@in> <000301caec1e$55eb04c0$01c10e40$@in> Message-ID: sorry the policies of the govt may not reflect the will of the people, if democracy is weak. its gotten better with a freer media influencing the government over the last 10 years. if you dont have regular elections, the only other way for a govt, especially military govt to stay in touch with people in through intelligence gathering by intelligence agencies operating within the country. and in pakistan they have ALWAYS manipulated the election to get the desired results out of parliamentarians careers. imagine majors and colonels negotiating with to be elected parliamentarians about what they want or else. the last election was a bit better, but we need several cycles before the corrupt get cleared or adapt. believe it or not this is how disconnected we are. there is an insurgency inbaluchistan, there are separatist movements, and a war in khyber-pakhtunkhwa, and then, a huge population that is totally disconnected from any political process, who are the majority of the people of pakistan and have absolutely no expectation of the govt. In the recent 18th Amendment to the Constitution, they have dropped the requirement for political parties to have internal elections. Just imagine what kind of people are sitting in govt. I cannot call them representative. i am sure it is just a little bit different in india. On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 11:43 AM, Bipin Trivedi wrote: > Dear Yasir, > > How can you make people and others separate? From where foreign policy > maker or politician and army comes? Ultimately they come from public only > and they are citizen of Pakistan. Generation after generation came as > politician and army and these new generation is from people only who is now > policy maker or in army. So, its ultimately echo of Pakistan people only. > Please understand these real truth before making such argument of separating > the both. > > Thanks > Bipin > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net [mailto:reader-list-bounces at sarai.net] > On Behalf Of yasir ~?? ?? > Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2010 3:35 AM > To: Sarai Reader-list > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] 140,000 troops in FATA > > once again you have deliberately missed the point, as impossible as it is > to > do both at the same time. My point was about the people not the foreign > policy, not the army, yet you choose to mix them up, because thats what you > are refusing top separate, and see the separate entinities of the people, > the army, the govts. we are not radically democratic, only mildly so > electing the same people from the same classes, when the army is not > actively interfering in the vote counts,or runninga martial regime.. i > suggest you reread what i wrote. i dont find it of use to go in the > directions you are suggesting, since you have missed the sole point of it. > your nationalism blinds you to your own hierarchical and class realities, > you cannot breathe without. in fact it shows your inability to speak about > it. enough said. > > Buck up. perfect perfect perfect. > > > On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 6:16 PM, Bipin Trivedi wrote: > > > Yes Kshemendra, you are perfectly right and good point of argument > raised. > > Keep it up. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net [mailto: > reader-list-bounces at sarai.net] > > On Behalf Of Kshmendra Kaul > > Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 6:09 PM > > To: Sarai Reader-list; yasir ~يا سر > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] 140,000 troops in FATA > > > > Dear Yasir > > > > From 'Blame-USA' you move to "Blame-India". "Land of the Pure", > Pakistan's > > favorite pastime; blame everyone else but itself. > > > > Your viewpoint of 'history' between India and Pakistan starts from 1971. > > > > Remember 1947-48 when Maharaja of Kashmir had to sign the "Instrument of > > Accession" because Pakistan broke the "Standstill Agreement" which > (unlike > > India) it had signed on? In a manner of speaking, India did not 'eat up' > > Kashmir but Pakistan offered it to India. > > > > Remember 1965 and Pakistan's 'Operation Gibraltar'? (Read Ikram Sehgal's > > http://www.defencejournal.com/jul99/gibraltor-2.htm) > > > > Yet India was kind to Pakistan in 1971 and returned the 90,000 POWs > without > > getting anything in return. Rather the idiocy of Indira Gandhi in > trusting > > whatever Bhutto had promised her. > > > > Yet, the never to be trusted Pakistan went in for the sneaky Kargil > > operation. > > > > Pakistan's build-up of Military capabilities (and connected Budgets) has > as > > much and more to do with it's Islamic ambitions ('thekedaar' of Islam) as > it > > has to do with threat perceptions from India that it itself has provoked. > > > > By your logic, with India's inimical relations with China, India should > be > > trying to match the Defence Budget of China and more since there are two > > 'enemies' to contend with, China and Pakistan. > > > > India's defence expenditure happens to be a lower percentage of it's GDP > > when compared to Pakistan. From 2.5% of GDP in 06-07, it has come dowm to > > 2.30% in 09-10 and 2.12% in 10-11. > > > > And yes, please make up your mind. Did India 'eat up' Hyderabad&Junagad > or > > Kashmir? Any logic justifying claim of 'eat up' of one would contradict > > itself when applied to the other. > > > > Kshmendra > > > > --- On Mon, 5/3/10, yasir ~يا سر wrote: > > > > > > From: yasir ~يا سر > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] 140,000 troops in FATA > > To: "Sarai Reader-list" > > Date: Monday, May 3, 2010, 8:21 PM > > > > > > no sorry you totally got that from an enemy perspective. please get this > > right. > > > > if you ask us, we will tell you the following: > > the people of pakistan are the real victim, when the govt of pakistan, > the > > pakistan army, sold itself to the united states, becoming a mercenary > state > > for them. the relation is completely one-sided. what development in real > > terms have we seen, take any indicator. why are we worse off with many > > systems existing and functioning back in the postpartition days woefully > > nonexistent or malfunctional, let alone any new systems. the answer is > > quite > > severe. we have a military budget which has to deal with india which is > > many > > itimes its size and (had been) eadger to destabilize it after breaking it > > up > > into 2 in 1971, and which had earlier eaten up hyderabad and kashmir. so > we > > are now doomed to military spending which comes anyway from the US, > leaving > > little in the way of major public projects which could have benefited > > people > > at large. Government spending was eaten by the military. if you imagine > > what > > kind of a present society we could have been if we had not stuck to this > > stupid military buildup (you can eveluate your own side). so the war on > > terror is just another day, another cloud. but it follows the covert US > > action in Afghanistan against the Soviets using Afghanis and Pakistanis > > then > > disappearing for a decade and showing up again this time because the > > militancy the americans had started, charlie wilson's war starring tom > > cruise, could not be put out and took the wtc with it. sorry there is no > > conspiracy here. we are getting the blame 'for not doing enough' and then > > we > > have to deal with your pearls of wisdom strewn from across the border. > > > > so dear KK, we are not asking for blood money. we are saying: having > > destroyed the region, you better build it up now, to what it should be > > like. > > i think this is not only possible, but also a moral responsility of the > US > > in no uncertain terms. and we dont trust them either because of this > > history. > > > > best > > > > y > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 5:50 PM, Kshmendra Kaul > >wrote: > > > > > USA also pays "Blood Money" to Pakistan which Pakistan accepts very > > > gratefully. > > > > > > In fact there is a constant clamour by many in Pakistan : "You are not > > > paying us enough!!!! We want more!!!! We want more!!!!" > > > > > > --- On *Mon, 5/3/10, yasir ~يا سر * wrote: > > > > > > > > > From: yasir ~يا سر > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] 140,000 troops in FATA > > > To: "Sarai Reader-list" > > > Date: Monday, May 3, 2010, 1:53 PM > > > > > > one needs to add much salt here: > > > > > > > > > - reporters are not allowed, you only get the official army version > > > - civilian casualties are 'normal', very high and not reported, > > > including > > > extra judicial killings and right violations > > > - the number of internally displaced people is huge, frequently not > > > taken > > > care of by anyone let alone by govt > > > - the motivation in no small measure comes from the US pressuring > the > > PK > > > army to show that action is being taken, which frequently leads to > > > unstable > > > conditions, rather than working with local actors with a long term > > view, > > > while dealing with a guerrilla like militancy. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 11:30 AM, S. Jabbar > http://us.mc572.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=sonia.jabbar at gmail.com>> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > FRONT-PAGE > > > > ŒPakistan has moved 100,000 troops from eastern border¹ > > > > > > > > By Our Correspondent > > > > > > > > Friday, 30 Apr, 2010 | 01:38 AM PST | > > > > > > > > > > > > WASHINGTON: Pakistan has deployed 140,000 troops in Fata, moving at > > least > > > > 100,000 soldiers from the Indian border to back up its > Œunprecedented¹ > > > > crackdown on militants along the Afghan border, says a Pentagon > report. > > > > > > > > In its mandatory report to the US Congress on the situation in the > > > > Pakistan-Afghan region, the Pentagon notes that the deployment is the > > > > biggest in the country¹s history on the western border. > > > > > > > > ³This unprecedented deployment and thinning of the lines against > India > > > > indicates that Islamabad has acknowledged its domestic insurgent > > threat.² > > > > > > > > The Pentagon also acknowledges that Pakistani military operations in > > the > > > > tribal regions have had an impact across the border, placing a ³high > > > degree > > > > of pressure on enemy forces and reduced insurgent safe haven² in > > eastern > > > > Afghanistan. > > > > > > > > The Pentagon informs Congress that recent arrests by Pakistan of > Afghan > > > > Taliban leaders, including the group¹s No. 2, Mullah Abdul Ghani > > Baradar, > > > > have ³increased insurgent leaders¹ concern over the security of their > > > safe > > > > havens² and created ³financial and logistical² problems for them. > > > > > > > > This assessment contrasts sharply with the Afghan claim ‹ backed by > > India > > > ‹ > > > > that the arrests have weakened Kabul¹s efforts to seek a negotiated > > > > settlement with the Taliban leadership. > > > > > > > > The report quotes a senior US defence official as saying that the > > arrests > > > > in > > > > Pakistan produced ³a lot of concerned chatter² among Taliban > > sympathisers > > > > in > > > > Afghanistan, but there¹s no indication of ³a leadership crisis in the > > > > Taliban². > > > > > > > > The Pentagon notes that so far the crackdown in Pakistan is focused > > > almost > > > > exclusively on internal threats and that¹s why it¹s not having any > > > > ³significant impact on the Afghan insurgency in the short term². > > > > > > > > But the crackdown ³offers opportunities in coming months to have a > > > greater > > > > impact on the conflict in Afghanistan depending on how PAKMIL > > (Pakistani > > > > military) operations evolve,² the report adds. > > > > > > > > ³Pakistan has suffered attacks from terrorists in response to its > > > > successful > > > > operations. These attacks include mass casualty events in Mingora, > > South > > > > Waziristan agency close to clearing operations as well as in Lahore, > > far > > > > away from the fighting. ³While these attacks do not appear to have > > shaken > > > > Pakistan¹s commitment, they do demonstrate, for the time being, > > insurgent > > > > ability to continue attacks despite successful Pakistani operations,² > > the > > > > report warns. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > front-page/pakistan-has-moved-100,000-troops-from-indian-border-pentagon-040< > > > > > > http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/%0Afront-page/pakistan-has-moved-100,000-troops-from-indian-border-pentagon-040 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Copyright © 2010 - Dawn Media Group > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net< > > > http://us.mc572.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=reader-list-request at sarai.net > > >with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net< > > > http://us.mc572.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=reader-list-request at sarai.net > >with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > From shuddha at sarai.net Wed May 5 11:15:21 2010 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 11:15:21 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 140,000 troops in FATA In-Reply-To: References: <525895.33880.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <000001caeb8c$0308d620$091a8260$@in> Message-ID: Dear Yasir, People who are unable to separate themselves from the agendas of the militarist elites of their own states automatically assume that everyone, everywhere in the world is exactly like them. Thanks for your valuable postings, best Shuddha On 05-May-10, at 3:34 AM, yasir ~يا سر wrote: > once again you have deliberately missed the point, as impossible as > it is to > do both at the same time. My point was about the people not the > foreign > policy, not the army, yet you choose to mix them up, because thats > what you > are refusing top separate, and see the separate entinities of the > people, > the army, the govts. we are not radically democratic, only mildly so > electing the same people from the same classes, when the army is not > actively interfering in the vote counts,or runninga martial regime.. i > suggest you reread what i wrote. i dont find it of use to go in the > directions you are suggesting, since you have missed the sole point > of it. > your nationalism blinds you to your own hierarchical and class > realities, > you cannot breathe without. in fact it shows your inability to > speak about > it. enough said. > > Buck up. perfect perfect perfect. > > > On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 6:16 PM, Bipin Trivedi > wrote: > >> Yes Kshemendra, you are perfectly right and good point of argument >> raised. >> Keep it up. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net [mailto:reader-list- >> bounces at sarai.net] >> On Behalf Of Kshmendra Kaul >> Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 6:09 PM >> To: Sarai Reader-list; yasir ~يا سر >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] 140,000 troops in FATA >> >> Dear Yasir >> >> From 'Blame-USA' you move to "Blame-India". "Land of the Pure", >> Pakistan's >> favorite pastime; blame everyone else but itself. >> >> Your viewpoint of 'history' between India and Pakistan starts from >> 1971. >> >> Remember 1947-48 when Maharaja of Kashmir had to sign the >> "Instrument of >> Accession" because Pakistan broke the "Standstill Agreement" which >> (unlike >> India) it had signed on? In a manner of speaking, India did not >> 'eat up' >> Kashmir but Pakistan offered it to India. >> >> Remember 1965 and Pakistan's 'Operation Gibraltar'? (Read Ikram >> Sehgal's >> http://www.defencejournal.com/jul99/gibraltor-2.htm) >> >> Yet India was kind to Pakistan in 1971 and returned the 90,000 >> POWs without >> getting anything in return. Rather the idiocy of Indira Gandhi in >> trusting >> whatever Bhutto had promised her. >> >> Yet, the never to be trusted Pakistan went in for the sneaky Kargil >> operation. >> >> Pakistan's build-up of Military capabilities (and connected >> Budgets) has as >> much and more to do with it's Islamic ambitions ('thekedaar' of >> Islam) as it >> has to do with threat perceptions from India that it itself has >> provoked. >> >> By your logic, with India's inimical relations with China, India >> should be >> trying to match the Defence Budget of China and more since there >> are two >> 'enemies' to contend with, China and Pakistan. >> >> India's defence expenditure happens to be a lower percentage of >> it's GDP >> when compared to Pakistan. From 2.5% of GDP in 06-07, it has come >> dowm to >> 2.30% in 09-10 and 2.12% in 10-11. >> >> And yes, please make up your mind. Did India 'eat up' >> Hyderabad&Junagad or >> Kashmir? Any logic justifying claim of 'eat up' of one would >> contradict >> itself when applied to the other. >> >> Kshmendra >> >> --- On Mon, 5/3/10, yasir ~يا سر wrote: >> >> >> From: yasir ~يا سر >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] 140,000 troops in FATA >> To: "Sarai Reader-list" >> Date: Monday, May 3, 2010, 8:21 PM >> >> >> no sorry you totally got that from an enemy perspective. please >> get this >> right. >> >> if you ask us, we will tell you the following: >> the people of pakistan are the real victim, when the govt of >> pakistan, the >> pakistan army, sold itself to the united states, becoming a >> mercenary state >> for them. the relation is completely one-sided. what development >> in real >> terms have we seen, take any indicator. why are we worse off with >> many >> systems existing and functioning back in the postpartition days >> woefully >> nonexistent or malfunctional, let alone any new systems. the >> answer is >> quite >> severe. we have a military budget which has to deal with india >> which is >> many >> itimes its size and (had been) eadger to destabilize it after >> breaking it >> up >> into 2 in 1971, and which had earlier eaten up hyderabad and >> kashmir. so we >> are now doomed to military spending which comes anyway from the >> US, leaving >> little in the way of major public projects which could have benefited >> people >> at large. Government spending was eaten by the military. if you >> imagine >> what >> kind of a present society we could have been if we had not stuck >> to this >> stupid military buildup (you can eveluate your own side). so the >> war on >> terror is just another day, another cloud. but it follows the >> covert US >> action in Afghanistan against the Soviets using Afghanis and >> Pakistanis >> then >> disappearing for a decade and showing up again this time because the >> militancy the americans had started, charlie wilson's war starring >> tom >> cruise, could not be put out and took the wtc with it. sorry there >> is no >> conspiracy here. we are getting the blame 'for not doing enough' >> and then >> we >> have to deal with your pearls of wisdom strewn from across the >> border. >> >> so dear KK, we are not asking for blood money. we are saying: having >> destroyed the region, you better build it up now, to what it >> should be >> like. >> i think this is not only possible, but also a moral responsility >> of the US >> in no uncertain terms. and we dont trust them either because of this >> history. >> >> best >> >> y >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 5:50 PM, Kshmendra Kaul >> >> wrote: >> >>> USA also pays "Blood Money" to Pakistan which Pakistan accepts very >>> gratefully. >>> >>> In fact there is a constant clamour by many in Pakistan : "You >>> are not >>> paying us enough!!!! We want more!!!! We want more!!!!" >>> >>> --- On *Mon, 5/3/10, yasir ~يا سر * >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> From: yasir ~يا سر >>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] 140,000 troops in FATA >>> To: "Sarai Reader-list" >>> Date: Monday, May 3, 2010, 1:53 PM >>> >>> one needs to add much salt here: >>> >>> >>> - reporters are not allowed, you only get the official army >>> version >>> - civilian casualties are 'normal', very high and not reported, >>> including >>> extra judicial killings and right violations >>> - the number of internally displaced people is huge, >>> frequently not >>> taken >>> care of by anyone let alone by govt >>> - the motivation in no small measure comes from the US >>> pressuring the >> PK >>> army to show that action is being taken, which frequently >>> leads to >>> unstable >>> conditions, rather than working with local actors with a long >>> term >> view, >>> while dealing with a guerrilla like militancy. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 11:30 AM, S. Jabbar > http://us.mc572.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=sonia.jabbar at gmail.com>> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> FRONT-PAGE >>>> ŒPakistan has moved 100,000 troops from eastern border¹ >>>> >>>> By Our Correspondent >>>> >>>> Friday, 30 Apr, 2010 | 01:38 AM PST | >>>> >>>> >>>> WASHINGTON: Pakistan has deployed 140,000 troops in Fata, moving at >> least >>>> 100,000 soldiers from the Indian border to back up its >>>> Œunprecedented¹ >>>> crackdown on militants along the Afghan border, says a Pentagon >>>> report. >>>> >>>> In its mandatory report to the US Congress on the situation in the >>>> Pakistan-Afghan region, the Pentagon notes that the deployment >>>> is the >>>> biggest in the country¹s history on the western border. >>>> >>>> ³This unprecedented deployment and thinning of the lines against >>>> India >>>> indicates that Islamabad has acknowledged its domestic insurgent >> threat.² >>>> >>>> The Pentagon also acknowledges that Pakistani military >>>> operations in >> the >>>> tribal regions have had an impact across the border, placing a >>>> ³high >>> degree >>>> of pressure on enemy forces and reduced insurgent safe haven² in >> eastern >>>> Afghanistan. >>>> >>>> The Pentagon informs Congress that recent arrests by Pakistan of >>>> Afghan >>>> Taliban leaders, including the group¹s No. 2, Mullah Abdul Ghani >> Baradar, >>>> have ³increased insurgent leaders¹ concern over the security of >>>> their >>> safe >>>> havens² and created ³financial and logistical² problems for >>>> them. >>>> >>>> This assessment contrasts sharply with the Afghan claim ‹ >>>> backed by >> India >>> ‹ >>>> that the arrests have weakened Kabul¹s efforts to seek a >>>> negotiated >>>> settlement with the Taliban leadership. >>>> >>>> The report quotes a senior US defence official as saying that the >> arrests >>>> in >>>> Pakistan produced ³a lot of concerned chatter² among Taliban >> sympathisers >>>> in >>>> Afghanistan, but there¹s no indication of ³a leadership crisis >>>> in the >>>> Taliban². >>>> >>>> The Pentagon notes that so far the crackdown in Pakistan is focused >>> almost >>>> exclusively on internal threats and that¹s why it¹s not having >>>> any >>>> ³significant impact on the Afghan insurgency in the short term². >>>> >>>> But the crackdown ³offers opportunities in coming months to have a >>> greater >>>> impact on the conflict in Afghanistan depending on how PAKMIL >> (Pakistani >>>> military) operations evolve,² the report adds. >>>> >>>> ³Pakistan has suffered attacks from terrorists in response to its >>>> successful >>>> operations. These attacks include mass casualty events in Mingora, >> South >>>> Waziristan agency close to clearing operations as well as in >>>> Lahore, >> far >>>> away from the fighting. ³While these attacks do not appear to have >> shaken >>>> Pakistan¹s commitment, they do demonstrate, for the time being, >> insurgent >>>> ability to continue attacks despite successful Pakistani >>>> operations,² >> the >>>> report warns. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/the- >> newspaper/ >>>> >>>> >>> >> front-page/pakistan-has-moved-100,000-troops-from-indian-border- >> pentagon-040< >>> >> http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/the- >> newspaper/%0Afront-page/pakistan-has-moved-100,000-troops-from- >> indian-border-pentagon-040 >>>> >>> >>>> >>>> Copyright © 2010 - Dawn Media Group >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net< >> http://us.mc572.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=reader-list- >> request at sarai.net >>> with >>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net< >> http://us.mc572.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=reader-list- >> request at sarai.net>with >> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >>> >>> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed May 5 14:51:46 2010 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 14:51:46 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Interesting Comparison Message-ID: Nitin Nohria,newly appointed Dean of Harvard, was named by Harvard president Drew Faust to succeed Jay Light, who is retiring as dean at the end of the current academic yea Raised in India, Nohria received his bachelor of technology degree in chemical engineering in 1984 from the Indian Institute of Technology in Bombay. He earned his Ph.D. in management from the Sloan School of Management at Massachusetts Institute of Technology in 1988, the same year he joined the Harvard Business School faculty as an assistant professor. AND ..... Faisal Shahzad, charged with terrorism and attempting to use a weapon of mass destruction in a botched bombing in New York City's Times Square, was born in June 1979 in the town of Pabbi, located northwest of the Pakistani capital, Islamabad. Shahzad is the son of Baharul Haq, a former air force vice-marshal and deputy director general of the civil aviation authority, according to Kifyat Ali, a cousin of the father. From sonia.jabbar at gmail.com Wed May 5 17:29:40 2010 From: sonia.jabbar at gmail.com (S. Jabbar) Date: Wed, 05 May 2010 17:29:40 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Case of Faisal Shahzad Message-ID: >From The New Yorker The Case of Faisal Shahzad Posted by Steve Coll Providing an accurate e-mail address to the seller of a vehicle you intend to use as a murder weapon is the sort of mistake that might get a person¹s membership card pulled down at the terrorist union hall. No doubt Faisal Shahzad, the man arrested in the Times Square car bomb case, is having a bad day. It will probably get worse if he spends time in his holding cell reflecting on the trail of breadcrumbs he apparently left behind while planning what the evidence available so far suggests was the only act of violence committed during his young life as a U.S. citizen. If not for that e-mail address, Shahzad might already have stepped off an airplane in Karachi, ready to melt away into Pakistan. Terrorists are adaptive, self-correcting, and cunning‹except when they aren¹t. For all of his alleged error-making as an individual, however, Shahzad¹s case may actually reflect on how Pakistan-based jihadi groups have learned to protect themselves. According to news reports, Shahzad spent several months in Pakistan before returning to the United States. This would make him one of at least half a dozen U.S. citizens or residents to travel to Pakistan as alleged volunteers during the last several years. Last week, before the Times Square incident, I was talking with a former U.S. intelligence officer who worked extensively on jihadi cases during several overseas tours. He said that when a singleton of Shahzad¹s profile‹especially a U.S. citizen‹turns up in a place like Peshawar, local jihadi groups are much more likely to assess him as a probable U.S. spy than as a genuine volunteer. At best, the jihadi groups might conclude that a particular U.S.-originated individual¹s case is uncertain. They might then encourage the person to go home and carry out an attack‹without giving him any training or access to higher-up specialists that might compromise their local operations. They would see such a U.S.-based volunteer as a ³freebie,² the former officer said‹if he returns home to attack, great, but if he merely goes off to report back to his C.I.A. case officer, no harm done. Whatever the narrative behind Shahzad¹s case turns out to be, we can take solace that we will hear it in a court of law. Amidst the country¹s often self-defeating search for a justice system to address terrorism, his is not a particularly hard case‹a U.S. citizen arrested on U.S. soil for a crime against Americans carried out in New York. We can nonetheless look forward to ³The Daily Show² clips showing cable television anchors railing about the Obama Administration¹s failure to recognize him as a warrior. Fortunately, like one of those Eleven O¹clock News bank robbers who tries to rob an A.T.M., only to topple it over on himself, Shahzad¹s case may help to illuminate a truth larger than himself: Terrorists are criminals, and the great majority of criminals are prosaic. Read more: http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/stevecoll/2010/05/the-case-of-faisal-s hahzad.html#ixzz0n3VLrPLz From joechrismyles at gmail.com Wed May 5 17:55:21 2010 From: joechrismyles at gmail.com (joe chris) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 17:55:21 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: notification for admission into BA, MA, MPhil PhD courses at EFLU In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: joe chris Date: Tue, May 4, 2010 at 7:50 AM Subject: notification for admission into BA, MA, MPhil PhD courses at EFLU To: sarai list Dear Friends, If interested check out the links pasted below for information regarding admissions into BA, MA, MPhil and PhD courses at the EFLU (English and Foreign Languages), Hyderabad [formerly CIEFL (Central Institute of English and Foreign Languages)]. http://www.efluniversity.ac.in/images/admission_notice_website.pdf http://www.efluniversity.ac.in/ regards, joe christopher From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed May 5 18:17:44 2010 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 18:17:44 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Shahzad is of Kashmiri descent ? Message-ID: http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1987126,00.html?xid=rss-topstories The Times Square car bomb failed to detonate, but it could yet cause political reverberations around two questions: Should the government have known about the plot and its alleged perpetrator? And does using the rules of the criminal-justice system against a man accused of plotting a terror attack against America leave the country more vulnerable? So far, the answers to both questions seem to be breaking in favor of the Obama Administration, but it's early days yet. And questions have been raised over how Faisal Shahzad managed to board the Dubai-bound flight on which he was arrested shortly before takeoff Tuesday at JFK International Airport despite being under surveillance by the FBI. The criminal complaint against Shahzad alleges that he received bombmaking training in a militant camp in western Pakistan. Still, the suspect appears not to have previously registered on the radar of the U.S. security bureaucracy through any known association with terrorist or radical groups. (See pictures of the car bomb's discovery in Times Square.) Pakistani government officials told TIME on Tuesday that Shahzad is of Kashmiri descent and the son of a former top Pakistani air-force officer. On his most recent Pakistani passport application, he had given his nationality as Kashmiri — a fact that some analysts suspect might tie him to militant groups based in Pakistan originally formed to fight Indian control of the divided territory. An official in Islamabad said Pakistani authorities are investigating whether he had ties to any Kashmiri jihadist groups. During his latest spell in Pakistan, Shahzad was also said to have spent significant time in Peshawar, the capital of the North-West Frontier Province, where Islamabad has waged a fierce war against Taliban militants. A Pakistani government source, speaking on condition of anonymity, told TIME on Tuesday that the suspect had had ties with militants while in Pakistan. "He was here at a training camp," the source said. The legal complaint against Shahzad, which charged him with terrorism and attempting to use a weapon of mass destruction, said he admitted to receiving bombmaking training in Waziristan, the lawless tribal hotbed of militancy. Pakistani officials claim that there have been a number of arrests in Karachi of people suspected by authorities of having a connection with the suspect. "There will be more arrests before the night is out," a senior government source told TIME. (See the TIME 100 list of the world's most influential people.) But so far, the only indication that Shahzad had raised any suspicion among U.S. officials is the fact that he underwent secondary screening at the airport upon his return to the U.S. earlier this year. According to Congresswoman Jane Harman, chairman of the Homeland Security Subcommittee on Intelligence, Shahzad was pulled aside and gave "critical contact information that was entered into the system and used in his arrest yesterday." At a press conference in Washington Tuesday, Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano said Shahzad had been screened "because some of the targeting rules applied," but declined to elaborate. At the same press conference, FBI deputy director John Pistole said, "There are a number of steps that are taken to identify potential terrorists, whether that's the country from which they originate, in terms of terrorist training camps, or the individuals they associate with." The fact that he appears to have briefly evaded surveillance to buy a ticket and board a flight out of the country also raised concern among legislators, although Attorney General Eric Holder insists there was never any danger of Shahzad slipping through the net. Despite the allegation that he trained in Waziristan, Shahzad can't have been any jihadist professor's star student: the bomb contraption he is alleged to have built was so dysfunctional that it could have illustrated a how-not-to-build-a-bomb manual. Perhaps the good news is that jihadist training may have deteriorated as networks based in Afghanistan and Pakistan have come under sustained attack from the U.S. and its allies. More distressingly, the case could highlight a downside of the U.S.-led war against terrorism since 9/11: while wars in Afghanistan and Iraq — and drone strikes in Pakistan — have killed hundreds of militants, those who survive tend to operate more independently, and there are plenty more willing to join them. "We haven't bent their determination one bit, but these are smaller, lower-quality efforts," says Brian Jenkins, a terrorism expert at the Rand Corp. "We have managed to break up their capability to conduct large-scale, centrally directed operations," he adds. "Clearly there's a quality-control problem. So they're exhorting violence by locals, to do whatever they can, wherever they are." Instead of 9/11-style attacks carried out under direct orders from Osama bin Laden and lieutenants, recent efforts have been attempted by more amateurish lone wolves. And Americans should not take too much comfort from the ineptitude of the Times Square bombmaker. "If Major [Nidal] Hasan had jumped up on the desk at Fort Hood and shouted 'Allahu akbar' and his guns jammed, he would have looked like a buffoon," says Ralph Peters, a retired Army officer who writes often about terrorism. "But his guns didn't jam. This guy didn't get it right — he didn't know how to do bombs — but the next guy might know how to do bombs." Coming after months of fierce debate between congressional Republicans and the Administration over the appropriate legal strategy for dealing with terror suspects, Shahzad's treatment after his arrest was always going to be controversial. At Tuesday's press conference, Pistole said that "Joint Terrorism Task Force agents and officers from NYPD interviewed Mr. Shahzad last night and early this morning under the public-safety exception to the Miranda rule. He was, as the Attorney General noted, cooperative, and provided valuable intelligence and evidence. He was eventually transported to another location, Mirandized and continued talking." Before hearing that Shahzad had been read his rights, Republican Senator John McCain of Arizona said, "I don't believe [people like Shahzad] should be given Miranda rights ... [in case] he gets lawyered up and doesn't give any information. We need information to know how this thing happened." Peter King, the senior Republican on the House Homeland Security Committee, said the Attorney General should discuss reading Shahzad his rights with the intelligence community before doing so. As details of the arrest began to emerge, legislators from both parties were effusive in their praise for the efforts of the U.S. law-enforcement community, though the GOP leadership has been more circumspect on the issue of Shahzad's handling. Senate minority leader Mitch McConnell said Tuesday, "Hopefully the appropriate officials are using this opportunity to exploit as much intelligence as he may have about his overseas connections and any other plots against Americans either here or abroad." But the controversy over Mirandizing terror suspects is unlikely to go away: Connecticut independent Senator Joe Lieberman announced Tuesday that he plans to propose a bill stripping the citizenship of those Americans deemed by the U.S. intelligence community to have joined foreign terror networks. Presumably the Shahzad case, as it unfolds, will feature in that debate on Capitol Hill. — With reporting by Katy Steinmetz / Washington; Omar Waraich / Islamabad Read more: http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1987126,00.html?xid=rss-topstories#ixzz0n3hcLe8c From jeebesh at sarai.net Wed May 5 18:55:00 2010 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 18:55:00 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Am I A Maoist? Message-ID: <37AA2372-2A35-4D82-AADC-B017947C6DB9@sarai.net> http://countercurrents.org/dungdung030510.htm Am I A Maoist? By Gladson Dungdung 03 May, 2010 Countercurrents.org I appeared in public life through my human rights works, writings and speeches. However, I reached to a larger audience when I got a chance to appear in CNN-IBN and NDTV-24×7 debates on the issue of Naxalism last year. After these debates, I got immense positive and negative responses from across the country. I was upset for sometime precisely because of the most negative responses I got from youth who are running behind the market forces unknowingly. They ruthlessly questioned me about whether I get money from Pakistan, Nepal or China for speaking against the Indian State. I responded to a few of them with detailed explanations, but many believe P Chidambaram’s theory of this side or that side; therefore they are not ready to accept my rational arguments. Meanwhile, I continued my work of raising the genuine issues of the marginalized people of India. Amidst, the so-called operation green hunt (OGH) was also launched in the state of Jharkhand in the name of cleansing the Maoists. I passionately attempted to bring out the truth of the OGH, intention of the state behind the OGH and sufferings of the villagers caused by the OGH. As a result, so-called educated people intensified more personal attacks against me. There are also some e-groups where they attempted to coin me as a Maoist sympathizer and supporter. Finally, they have portrayed me as a Maoist Ideologue. I just laugh, laugh and laugh. Precisely, because how can a person suddenly become a Maoist ideologue without having an in-depth study on Maoism? I have never read about Maoism. I deliberately do not read about any ideology because I know that Maoists teach the Adivasis about Maoism, Gandhians preach them about Gandhism and Marxists ask them to walk on Marxism; but no one bothers about Adivasism, which is the best ‘ism’ among these, which perhaps leads to a just and equitable society. I have been raising questions about how the Indian State has deliberately destroyed the Adivasism. The Adivasi religion was not recognized by the Indian constitution, traditional self-governance was neglected, culture was destroyed, lands were grabbed and our resources were snatched in the name of development. But what do we get out of it? Should we still keep quiet? Are we not the citizens of this country who need to be treated equally? Do they care about our sufferings? I’m one of those unfortunate persons, who have lost everything for the so-called development of the nation and am struggling for survival even today. When I was just one year old, my family was displaced. Our 20 acres of fertile land was taken away from us in the name of development. Our ancestral land was submerged in a Dam, which came up at Chinda River near Simdega town in 1980. We lost our house, agricultural land and garden but we were paid merely Rs.11 thousand as compensation. When the whole village protested against it they were sent to Hazaribagh Jail. Can a family of 6 members ensure food, clothing, shelter, education and health facilities for whole life with Rs.11 thousand? After displacement, we had no choice but to proceed towards the dense forest for ensuring our livelihood. We settled down in the forest after buying a small patch of land. We used to collect flowers, fruits and firewood to sustain our family. We also had sufficient livestock, which supported our economy. Needless to say that the state suppression continued with us. When we were living in the forest, my father was booked under many cases filed by the forest department (the biggest landlord of the country) alleging him as an encroacher and woodcutter. There was no school building in our village - therefore we used to study under the trees, and when there was rain our school was closed. But my father taught us to always fight for justice. Though he was struggling to sustain our family, he never stopped his fight for the community. Unfortunately, on 20 June 1990, my parents were brutally murdered while they were going to Simdega civil court to attend a case and 4 kids were orphaned. Can anyone imagine how we suffered afterwards? The worst thing is the culprits were not brought to justice. Can anyone tell us why the Indian State did not deliver justice to us, who snatched our resource in the name of development? Why there is no electricity in my village even today? Why my people do not get water for their field whose lands were taken for the irrigation projects? Why there is no electricity in those houses, who have given their land for the power project? And why people are still living in small mud houses whose lands were taken for the steel plants? It seems that the Adivasis are only born to suffer and other to enjoy over our graves. After a long struggle, we all got back to life but my pain and sufferings did not end here. When I was working as a state programme officer in a project funded by the European Commission, a senior government officer and an editor of a newspaper (both from the upper caste) questioned my credentials saying that being an Adivasi, how could I have gotten into such a prestigious position? Similarly, when my friend had taken me to meet a newly wedded couple of the upper caste in Ranchi, I was not allowed to meet them saying that being an Adivasi if I meet the couple, they might become unauspicious and their whole life would be at stake. Was I a devil for them? However, when I joined another firm, I was totally undermined and not given the position which I highly deserved. I was racially discriminated against, economically exploited and mentally disturbed. Can anyone tell me why I should not fight for justice? Can those so- called supporters of the unjust development process, who have not given even one inch of land for the so-called national interest, coin me as the Maoist ideologue, sympathizer and supporter respond to me: why should I shut up my mouth and stop writing against injustice, inequality and discrimination? I have lost everything in the name of development and now I have nothing to lose therefore I’m determined to fight for my own people because I do not want them to be trapped in the name of development. I have taken the democratic path of struggle, which the Indian Constitution guarantees through Article 19. A pen, mouth and mind are my weapons. I’m neither a Maoist nor a Gandhian but I’m an Adivasi who is determined to fight for his own people, whom the Indian State has alienated, displaced and dispossessed from their resources and is continually doing it in the name of development, national security and national interest even today. Gladson Dungdung is a Human Rights Activist and Writer from Jharkhand. He can be reached at gladsonhractivist at gmail.com From peter.ksmtf at gmail.com Wed May 5 19:08:46 2010 From: peter.ksmtf at gmail.com (T Peter) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 19:08:46 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Call to protect traditional rights of inland fishermen In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Call to protect traditional rights of inland fishermen http://www.thehindu.com/2010/05/05/stories/2010050563300300.htm Special Correspondent -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Changes sought in Inland Fishery Bill Experts say most of its provisions are unacceptable -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thiruvananthapuram: Participants in a discussion organised by the Kerala Swathanthra Matsya Thozhilali Federation here on Tuesday called for provisions in the Kerala Inland Fishery Bill 2010 to protect the traditional rights and livelihood security of inland fishermen. Speakers said the Bill had ignored inland fishermen and people engaged in allied activities. Most of its provisions were either inadequate or unacceptable. They called for steps to identify and register inland fishermen. The current provisions to register these fish workers under the Kerala Fishermen Welfare Societies Act (1980) were confusing. They said that area-wise and population-wise, Ernakulam and Alappuzha were the prime inland fisheries districts of the State. But they had been excluded from the list of public hearing centres of the legislative subject committee. The meeting called for rescheduling the subject committee meetings to hold public hearings in the two districts. The speakers demanded that the Bill be called the Kerala Inland Fisheries (Management and Regulation) Bill. The word ‘fishery' was a restrictive term and hence should be deleted. They said the inland fishermen of the State were vested with some traditional rights for their fishing activities in filtration fields, pokkali areas and paddy-cum-fishing fields. The Bill should specifically acknowledge the traditional rights. They said fisheries management was not merely “fish conservation and fish reproduction.” Management involved socio-economic goals, protection of livelihood, women-related issues in the sector and consumer and trade-related activities. The principles of inland fisheries management should be clearly indicated in the Bill. Exclusive rights They said the fishing rights in the inland fishing areas, such as estuaries, rivers, reservoirs and brackish water and freshwater sources, should be exclusively vested with the fishermen. The present system of utilisation of these areas should be reviewed and adequate provisions included for their future utilisation. T. Peter, president of the federation; D. Sanjeeva Ghosh, former Additional Director of Fisheries; S. Ravindran Nair, former Joint Director of Fisheries; Julian Teelar, Executive, Fishmarc; and P.P. John, general secretary of the federation; participated in the discussions. From akmalik45 at yahoo.com Wed May 5 20:23:33 2010 From: akmalik45 at yahoo.com (A.K. Malik) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 07:53:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Shahzad is of Kashmiri descent ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <982658.94311.qm@web112111.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Dear Mr Durani, Since when Kashmiri nationality being accepted in passport applications? Regards, (A.K.MALIK) --- On Wed, 5/5/10, Pawan Durani wrote: > From: Pawan Durani > Subject: [Reader-list] Shahzad is of Kashmiri descent ? > To: "reader-list" > Date: Wednesday, May 5, 2010, 6:17 PM > http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1987126,00.html?xid=rss-topstories > > The Times Square car bomb failed to detonate, but it could > yet cause > political reverberations around two questions: Should the > government > have known about the plot and its alleged perpetrator? And > does using > the rules of the criminal-justice system against a man > accused of > plotting a terror attack against America leave the country > more > vulnerable? So far, the answers to both questions seem to > be breaking > in favor of the Obama Administration, but it's early days > yet. And > questions have been raised over how Faisal Shahzad managed > to board > the Dubai-bound flight on which he was arrested shortly > before takeoff > Tuesday at JFK International Airport despite being under > surveillance > by the FBI. > The criminal complaint against Shahzad alleges that he > received > bombmaking training in a militant camp in western Pakistan. > Still, the > suspect appears not to have previously registered on the > radar of the > U.S. security bureaucracy through any known association > with terrorist > or radical groups. > (See pictures of the car bomb's discovery in Times > Square.) > Pakistani government officials told TIME on Tuesday that > Shahzad is of > Kashmiri descent and the son of a former top Pakistani > air-force > officer. On his most recent Pakistani passport application, > he had > given his nationality as Kashmiri — a fact that some > analysts suspect > might tie him to militant groups based in Pakistan > originally formed > to fight Indian control of the divided territory. An > official in > Islamabad said Pakistani authorities are investigating > whether he had > ties to any Kashmiri jihadist groups. During his latest > spell in > Pakistan, Shahzad was also said to have spent significant > time in > Peshawar, the capital of the North-West Frontier Province, > where > Islamabad has waged a fierce war against Taliban > militants. > A Pakistani government source, speaking on condition of > anonymity, > told TIME on Tuesday that the suspect had had ties with > militants > while in Pakistan. "He was here at a training camp," the > source said. > The legal complaint against Shahzad, which charged him with > terrorism > and attempting to use a weapon of mass destruction, said he > admitted > to receiving bombmaking training in Waziristan, the lawless > tribal > hotbed of militancy. Pakistani officials claim that there > have been a > number of arrests in Karachi of people suspected by > authorities of > having a connection with the suspect. "There will be more > arrests > before the night is out," a senior government source told > TIME. > (See the TIME 100 list of the world's most influential > people.) > But so far, the only indication that Shahzad had raised any > suspicion > among U.S. officials is the fact that he underwent > secondary screening > at the airport upon his return to the U.S. earlier this > year. > According to Congresswoman Jane Harman, chairman of the > Homeland > Security Subcommittee on Intelligence, Shahzad was pulled > aside and > gave "critical contact information that was entered into > the system > and used in his arrest yesterday." > At a press conference in Washington Tuesday, Homeland > Security > Secretary Janet Napolitano said Shahzad had been screened > "because > some of the targeting rules applied," but declined to > elaborate. At > the same press conference, FBI deputy director John Pistole > said, > "There are a number of steps that are taken to identify > potential > terrorists, whether that's the country from which they > originate, in > terms of terrorist training camps, or the individuals they > associate > with." The fact that he appears to have briefly evaded > surveillance to > buy a ticket and board a flight out of the country also > raised concern > among legislators, although Attorney General Eric Holder > insists there > was never any danger of Shahzad slipping through the net. > Despite the allegation that he trained in Waziristan, > Shahzad can't > have been any jihadist professor's star student: the bomb > contraption > he is alleged to have built was so dysfunctional that it > could have > illustrated a how-not-to-build-a-bomb manual. Perhaps the > good news is > that jihadist training may have deteriorated as networks > based in > Afghanistan and Pakistan have come under sustained attack > from the > U.S. and its allies. > More distressingly, the case could highlight a downside of > the > U.S.-led war against terrorism since 9/11: while wars in > Afghanistan > and Iraq — and drone strikes in Pakistan — have killed > hundreds of > militants, those who survive tend to operate more > independently, and > there are plenty more willing to join them. > "We haven't bent their determination one bit, but these are > smaller, > lower-quality efforts," says Brian Jenkins, a terrorism > expert at the > Rand Corp. "We have managed to break up their capability to > conduct > large-scale, centrally directed operations," he adds. > "Clearly there's > a quality-control problem. So they're exhorting violence by > locals, to > do whatever they can, wherever they are." Instead of > 9/11-style > attacks carried out under direct orders from Osama bin > Laden and > lieutenants, recent efforts have been attempted by more > amateurish > lone wolves. > And Americans should not take too much comfort from the > ineptitude of > the Times Square bombmaker. "If Major [Nidal] Hasan had > jumped up on > the desk at Fort Hood and shouted 'Allahu akbar' and his > guns jammed, > he would have looked like a buffoon," says Ralph Peters, a > retired > Army officer who writes often about terrorism. "But his > guns didn't > jam. This guy didn't get it right — he didn't know how to > do bombs — > but the next guy might know how to do bombs." > Coming after months of fierce debate between congressional > Republicans > and the Administration over the appropriate legal strategy > for dealing > with terror suspects, Shahzad's treatment after his arrest > was always > going to be controversial. At Tuesday's press conference, > Pistole said > that "Joint Terrorism Task Force agents and officers from > NYPD > interviewed Mr. Shahzad last night and early this morning > under the > public-safety exception to the Miranda rule. He was, as the > Attorney > General noted, cooperative, and provided valuable > intelligence and > evidence. He was eventually transported to another > location, > Mirandized and continued talking." > Before hearing that Shahzad had been read his rights, > Republican > Senator John McCain of Arizona said, "I don't believe > [people like > Shahzad] should be given Miranda rights ... [in case] he > gets lawyered > up and doesn't give any information. We need information to > know how > this thing happened." Peter King, the senior Republican on > the House > Homeland Security Committee, said the Attorney General > should discuss > reading Shahzad his rights with the intelligence community > before > doing so. > As details of the arrest began to emerge, legislators from > both > parties were effusive in their praise for the efforts of > the U.S. > law-enforcement community, though the GOP leadership has > been more > circumspect on the issue of Shahzad's handling. Senate > minority leader > Mitch McConnell said Tuesday, "Hopefully the appropriate > officials are > using this opportunity to exploit as much intelligence as > he may have > about his overseas connections and any other plots against > Americans > either here or abroad." > But the controversy over Mirandizing terror suspects is > unlikely to go > away: Connecticut independent Senator Joe Lieberman > announced Tuesday > that he plans to propose a bill stripping the citizenship > of those > Americans deemed by the U.S. intelligence community to have > joined > foreign terror networks. Presumably the Shahzad case, as it > unfolds, > will feature in that debate on Capitol Hill. > — With reporting by Katy Steinmetz / Washington; Omar > Waraich / Islamabad > > > Read more: http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1987126,00.html?xid=rss-topstories#ixzz0n3hcLe8c > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From taraprakash at gmail.com Wed May 5 20:58:12 2010 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 11:28:12 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Public Enemy vs Arizona: Sonic Immigration References: <16454268.1273000244857.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rubis.atl.sa.earthlink.net><43BEF6CD-4F08-4D70-8441-802751389456@earthlink.net> <3BEF4339-3AD2-43F2-87EC-134B58456945@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Oh well, we saw minorities being pitted against same sex marriages in California (prob 8?) At a lot of places, African American community is also being coopted by anti-abortion militants. And now this? And then we complain about racism? discrimination? Wonder what if Arizona type of laws were present before white people reached US? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul D. Miller" To: "Udai Malhotra" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2010 2:44 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Public Enemy vs Arizona: Sonic Immigration > I'm transferring at Frankfurt airport, and took a quick glance at this > video. I find it sad and appalling. > > It's galvinized me as an African American to build even more bridges > between communities. > > Minorities only get played against one another when this kind of thing > happens, and the end result is everyone loses. > > This kind of stuff is so dumb, it's ridiculous. > > It really saddens me to see fellow African Americans being played by > right wing types. > > Paul > > Sent from my iPhone > > On May 5, 2010, at 7:02 AM, Udai Malhotra > wrote: > >> Dear Joshua, >> >> What is the point you are trying to make by linking to this video? >> If anything it is reinforcing that you are on some straight ignorant >> shit. >> >> - Udai >> >> On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 9:55 AM, Joshua Zeidner >> wrote: >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcmjPgyN36g&NR=1 >> >> -jmz >> >> On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 1:28 PM, Paul D. Miller >> wrote: >> >> > Again - this is strange non sense. >> > 1) the track is a free giveaway so no paycheck etc >> > >> > Josh - this is stupid. Either up the level of the discourse or >> come up with >> > something more interesting. >> > >> > I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone that would say >> either me or >> > Chuck D are racist, and no, Flava Flav isn't on the track. So... >> > >> > What's your point? I'm just getting on a flight to Khartoum, Sudan >> for a >> > project with ex child soldiers doing electronic music. >> > >> > Josh - if you would like to dialog about the merits of Arizona's >> > immigration, that's ok. But being an asshole, as we've seen in >> Arizona, >> > doesn't solve anyone's problems. >> > >> > By the way way, no, I'm not racist, and no, Public Enemy isn't >> racist. >> > >> > And I have nothing to do with Al Sharpton. >> > >> > Paul >> > >> > Sent from my iPhone >> > >> > On May 4, 2010, at 4:02 PM, Joshua Zeidner >> wrote: >> > >> > >> > sorry for getting all up in your grill hommie, but racism cuts >> both ways. >> > >> > maybe you can get Flavor Flav all up in hizouse too? >> > >> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzhpB1X-6ok >> > >> > it's pretty simple that illegal aliens are modern day slavery >> and they >> > destroy the lives of white and black Americans alike. >> Unfortunately we've >> > got selllouts like you who are willing to say anything for a >> paycheck. >> > >> > check ya later holmes, jmz >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 12:48 PM, Paul D. Miller < >> > > > >> > anansi1 at earthlink.net> wrote: >> > >> >> Very strange and reactionary response. >> >> >> >> Joshua - can you please enlighten me on my 'racist politics' and my >> >> relationship to Al Sharpton? >> >> >> >> You're sounding a bit shrill and to be completely honest, totally >> >> irrational. >> >> >> >> Paul >> >> >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> >> >> On May 4, 2010, at 3:22 PM, Joshua Zeidner < >> >> jjzeidner at gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> I'm writing this from the Arizona Capitol. >> >> >> >> Paul, we don't want your racist politics here. Al Sharpton has >> nothing >> >> in common with the illegal aliens. You are not only a traitor to >> your >> >> country but a traitor to your own people. How can you turn >> against a >> >> country that has given you so much? >> >> >> >> we do remember history. We remember it very well. >> >> >> >> Check it: >> >> > > >> >> http://www.buffalosoldiermuseum.com/?linkid=410&webid=1000 >> >> >> >> -jmz >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 12:10 PM, Paul D. Miller < >> >> > > >> >> anansi1 at earthlink.net> wrote: >> >> >> >>> Hey people - I just finished a studio session with Chuck D from >> Public >> >>> Enemy. In the wake of Republican Governor Jan Brewer's appalling >> >>> anti-immigrant law, me and Chuck D were rappin' and we decided >> to put >> >>> together an update of his classic track "By The Time I get To >> Arizona." >> >>> >> >>> You can download the track from here: >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> > > >> >>> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Anyone who knows about hip hop from the early 90's remembers John >> >>> McCain's unwillingness to endorse creating a local version of >> Martin Luther >> >>> King's birthday. The update here is a 21st century look in the >> rear view >> >>> mirror. The cliché that "those who don't learn from the past are >> doomed to >> >>> repeat it" still holds sway in our hyper amnesiac culture. I >> remixed D.W. >> >>> Griffith's infamous film Birth of a Nation with a bit of Public >> Enemy in >> >>> mind, and later on, they named an e.p. with the same name as my >> project. Me >> >>> and Chuck D have done several projects in the past around >> progressive, non >> >>> knucklehead hip hop. >> >>> >> >>> Please feel free to download this track and pass it around. We >> are the >> >>> media. Feel free to pass it around! >> >>> >> >>> By the way, this is a mashup, and it's basically not really for >> sale. I >> >>> just took a riff from Philly Sound >> >>> (> > >> >>> www.funkadelphiarecords.com), and flipped it. The result, is >> what you >> >>> hear here. It's free, and open. No $!! >> >>> You can download a better resolution version of the track here: >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> > > >> >>> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html >> >>> >> >>> Check it! >> >>> >> >>> Paul >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> > >> > >> > -- >> > >> > >> >> >> -- >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From jjzeidner at gmail.com Wed May 5 21:08:19 2010 From: jjzeidner at gmail.com (Joshua Zeidner) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 08:38:19 -0700 Subject: [Reader-list] Public Enemy vs Arizona: Sonic Immigration In-Reply-To: References: <16454268.1273000244857.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rubis.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <43BEF6CD-4F08-4D70-8441-802751389456@earthlink.net> <3BEF4339-3AD2-43F2-87EC-134B58456945@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On the contrary, the African Americans are getting played by left wing and the likes of Al Sharpton this time. I was at the capitol yesterday, there was a nice young African American girl who was vocally against the pro-Mexico demonstrators. She came down here because she couldn't find a job in LA. She shouted: "this is the new color of conservatism". We've never had slavery in Arizona. It was formed after the civil war. The African Americans played a critical role in the establishment of our state. -jmz On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 11:44 PM, Paul D. Miller wrote: > I'm transferring at Frankfurt airport, and took a quick glance at this > video. I find it sad and appalling. > > It's galvinized me as an African American to build even more bridges > between communities. > > Minorities only get played against one another when this kind of thing > happens, and the end result is everyone loses. > > This kind of stuff is so dumb, it's ridiculous. > > It really saddens me to see fellow African Americans being played by right > wing types. > > Paul > > Sent from my iPhone > > On May 5, 2010, at 7:02 AM, Udai Malhotra wrote: > > Dear Joshua, > > What is the point you are trying to make by linking to this video? If > anything it is reinforcing that you are on some straight ignorant shit. > > - Udai > > On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 9:55 AM, Joshua Zeidner < > jjzeidner at gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcmjPgyN36g&NR=1 >> >> -jmz >> >> On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 1:28 PM, Paul D. Miller < >> anansi1 at earthlink.net>wrote: >> >> > Again - this is strange non sense. >> > 1) the track is a free giveaway so no paycheck etc >> > >> > Josh - this is stupid. Either up the level of the discourse or come up >> with >> > something more interesting. >> > >> > I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone that would say either me >> or >> > Chuck D are racist, and no, Flava Flav isn't on the track. So... >> > >> > What's your point? I'm just getting on a flight to Khartoum, Sudan for a >> > project with ex child soldiers doing electronic music. >> > >> > Josh - if you would like to dialog about the merits of Arizona's >> > immigration, that's ok. But being an asshole, as we've seen in Arizona, >> > doesn't solve anyone's problems. >> > >> > By the way way, no, I'm not racist, and no, Public Enemy isn't racist. >> > >> > And I have nothing to do with Al Sharpton. >> > >> > Paul >> > >> > Sent from my iPhone >> > >> > On May 4, 2010, at 4:02 PM, Joshua Zeidner < >> jjzeidner at gmail.com> wrote: >> > >> > >> > sorry for getting all up in your grill hommie, but racism cuts both >> ways. >> > >> > maybe you can get Flavor Flav all up in hizouse too? >> > < >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzhpB1X-6ok> >> > >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzhpB1X-6ok >> > >> > it's pretty simple that illegal aliens are modern day slavery and they >> > destroy the lives of white and black Americans alike. Unfortunately >> we've >> > got selllouts like you who are willing to say anything for a paycheck. >> > >> > check ya later holmes, jmz >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 12:48 PM, Paul D. Miller < < >> anansi1 at earthlink.net> >> > anansi1 at earthlink.net> wrote: >> > >> >> Very strange and reactionary response. >> >> >> >> Joshua - can you please enlighten me on my 'racist politics' and my >> >> relationship to Al Sharpton? >> >> >> >> You're sounding a bit shrill and to be completely honest, totally >> >> irrational. >> >> >> >> Paul >> >> >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> >> >> On May 4, 2010, at 3:22 PM, Joshua Zeidner < < >> jjzeidner at gmail.com> >> >> jjzeidner at gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> I'm writing this from the Arizona Capitol. >> >> >> >> Paul, we don't want your racist politics here. Al Sharpton has >> nothing >> >> in common with the illegal aliens. You are not only a traitor to your >> >> country but a traitor to your own people. How can you turn against a >> >> country that has given you so much? >> >> >> >> we do remember history. We remember it very well. >> >> >> >> Check it: < >> http://www.buffalosoldiermuseum.com/?linkid=410&webid=1000>< >> http://www.buffalosoldiermuseum.com/?linkid=410&webid=1000> >> >> >> http://www.buffalosoldiermuseum.com/?linkid=410&webid=1000 >> >> >> >> -jmz >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 12:10 PM, Paul D. Miller < < >> anansi1 at earthlink.net>< anansi1 at earthlink.net> >> >> anansi1 at earthlink.net> wrote: >> >> >> >>> Hey people - I just finished a studio session with Chuck D from Public >> >>> Enemy. In the wake of Republican Governor Jan Brewer's appalling >> >>> anti-immigrant law, me and Chuck D were rappin' and we decided to put >> >>> together an update of his classic track "By The Time I get To >> Arizona." >> >>> >> >>> You can download the track from here: >> >>> >> >>> < >> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html>< >> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html> >> >>> >> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Anyone who knows about hip hop from the early 90's remembers John >> >>> McCain's unwillingness to endorse creating a local version of Martin >> Luther >> >>> King's birthday. The update here is a 21st century look in the rear >> view >> >>> mirror. The cliché that "those who don't learn from the past are >> doomed to >> >>> repeat it" still holds sway in our hyper amnesiac culture. I remixed >> D.W. >> >>> Griffith's infamous film Birth of a Nation with a bit of Public Enemy >> in >> >>> mind, and later on, they named an e.p. with the same name as my >> project. Me >> >>> and Chuck D have done several projects in the past around progressive, >> non >> >>> knucklehead hip hop. >> >>> >> >>> Please feel free to download this track and pass it around. We are the >> >>> media. Feel free to pass it around! >> >>> >> >>> By the way, this is a mashup, and it's basically not really for sale. >> I >> >>> just took a riff from Philly Sound (< >> http://www.funkadelphiarecords.com>< >> http://www.funkadelphiarecords.com> >> >>> www.funkadelphiarecords.com), and >> flipped it. The result, is what you >> >>> hear here. It's free, and open. No $!! >> >>> You can download a better resolution version of the track here: >> >>> >> >>> < >> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html>< >> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html> >> >>> >> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html >> >>> >> >>> Check it! >> >>> >> >>> Paul >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> > >> > >> > -- >> > >> > >> >> >> -- >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: < >> https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > -- -- From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Wed May 5 21:49:08 2010 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 17:19:08 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Am I A Maoist? In-Reply-To: <37AA2372-2A35-4D82-AADC-B017947C6DB9@sarai.net> References: <37AA2372-2A35-4D82-AADC-B017947C6DB9@sarai.net> Message-ID: The question of -Identity- seems to be re-appearing head again in this discourse isn't it? Gladson asks: Am I A Maoist? Arundhati in a TV debate asks pointedly to Rajdeep- Who is a Maoist? Rajdeep replies- ( I am sorry, but I couldn't stop laughing, poor Rajdeep tried to give a definition of -identity- of a maoist on live prime time television and this is what he came up with) ....when they kill people, when they kill children... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNvcJ3amlu8 What sort an answer is that? On the one hand Nilekani, who is working closely with RGI which comes under Home Ministry which is run by Chidambaram, is doing this UID/Aadhar thing which is being done as an exercise, in distinctly identifying poor people so as to bring resources directly to them....which I personally believe is a nice thought.... On the other hand Chidambaram is sending army and what not to 'wipe off' the poorest of poor in India...which I do not understand at all... If you want to identify someone to help them why would you want to kill them... Do you want to identify them and kill them? or Do you not want to identify them but just kill them? or Do you want to identify them but not kill them? or Do you not want to identify them and not kill them? In either case the original plea for establishing UID seems to be gone. Identify Poor- to- help them. I am really sorry Jeebesh, I have used the word -poor- on too many occasions in this mail. I realize you have a chronic allergy when people use it without understanding its complex history. Personally in my rather ill formed opinion, the word -poor- is as fuzzy as the word -identity- but I have used it and will continue to use it as an allusion to GOI terminology, especially, primary documents related to a set of premises which paved the way for UID. From taraprakash at gmail.com Wed May 5 21:51:07 2010 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 12:21:07 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Public Enemy vs Arizona: Sonic Immigration References: <16454268.1273000244857.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rubis.atl.sa.earthlink.net><43BEF6CD-4F08-4D70-8441-802751389456@earthlink.net><3BEF4339-3AD2-43F2-87EC-134B58456945@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <6E0C32A8C62A4060BE2CFB6D54BE8CF7@tara> Ever heard of Edgar Hoover? He always linked Martin Luther King with the communists and anti-nationals. Evern heard of likes of Rush and Glenn Beck? They find any kind of social justice linked to communism. Let me come to Paul Miller being a traitor. Remember the founding fathers of this country were called traitors by the British government and the loyalists? Oh no!!! There is no history!!! It died with USSR, when Fukoyama declared it dead. And then it died with Obama becoming the president. History was turned up side down, so was racism. Liberty and equality attained a new meaning, and so did the civil rights. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joshua Zeidner" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2010 11:38 AM Subject: [Reader-list] Public Enemy vs Arizona: Sonic Immigration > On the contrary, the African Americans are getting played by left wing > and the likes of Al Sharpton this time. > > I was at the capitol yesterday, there was a nice young African American > girl who was vocally against the pro-Mexico demonstrators. She came down > here because she couldn't find a job in LA. She shouted: "this is the new > color of conservatism". > > We've never had slavery in Arizona. It was formed after the civil war. > The African Americans played a critical role in the establishment of our > state. > > -jmz > > > > On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 11:44 PM, Paul D. Miller > wrote: > >> I'm transferring at Frankfurt airport, and took a quick glance at this >> video. I find it sad and appalling. >> >> It's galvinized me as an African American to build even more bridges >> between communities. >> >> Minorities only get played against one another when this kind of thing >> happens, and the end result is everyone loses. >> >> This kind of stuff is so dumb, it's ridiculous. >> >> It really saddens me to see fellow African Americans being played by >> right >> wing types. >> >> Paul >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On May 5, 2010, at 7:02 AM, Udai Malhotra wrote: >> >> Dear Joshua, >> >> What is the point you are trying to make by linking to this video? If >> anything it is reinforcing that you are on some straight ignorant shit. >> >> - Udai >> >> On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 9:55 AM, Joshua Zeidner < >> jjzeidner at gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcmjPgyN36g&NR=1 >>> >>> -jmz >>> >>> On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 1:28 PM, Paul D. Miller < >>> anansi1 at earthlink.net>wrote: >>> >>> > Again - this is strange non sense. >>> > 1) the track is a free giveaway so no paycheck etc >>> > >>> > Josh - this is stupid. Either up the level of the discourse or come up >>> with >>> > something more interesting. >>> > >>> > I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone that would say either me >>> or >>> > Chuck D are racist, and no, Flava Flav isn't on the track. So... >>> > >>> > What's your point? I'm just getting on a flight to Khartoum, Sudan for >>> > a >>> > project with ex child soldiers doing electronic music. >>> > >>> > Josh - if you would like to dialog about the merits of Arizona's >>> > immigration, that's ok. But being an asshole, as we've seen in >>> > Arizona, >>> > doesn't solve anyone's problems. >>> > >>> > By the way way, no, I'm not racist, and no, Public Enemy isn't racist. >>> > >>> > And I have nothing to do with Al Sharpton. >>> > >>> > Paul >>> > >>> > Sent from my iPhone >>> > >>> > On May 4, 2010, at 4:02 PM, Joshua Zeidner < >>> jjzeidner at gmail.com> wrote: >>> > >>> > >>> > sorry for getting all up in your grill hommie, but racism cuts both >>> ways. >>> > >>> > maybe you can get Flavor Flav all up in hizouse too? >>> > < >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzhpB1X-6ok> >>> > >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzhpB1X-6ok >>> > >>> > it's pretty simple that illegal aliens are modern day slavery and >>> > they >>> > destroy the lives of white and black Americans alike. Unfortunately >>> we've >>> > got selllouts like you who are willing to say anything for a paycheck. >>> > >>> > check ya later holmes, jmz >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 12:48 PM, Paul D. Miller < >>> > < >>> anansi1 at earthlink.net> >>> > anansi1 at earthlink.net> wrote: >>> > >>> >> Very strange and reactionary response. >>> >> >>> >> Joshua - can you please enlighten me on my 'racist politics' and my >>> >> relationship to Al Sharpton? >>> >> >>> >> You're sounding a bit shrill and to be completely honest, totally >>> >> irrational. >>> >> >>> >> Paul >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> Sent from my iPhone >>> >> >>> >> On May 4, 2010, at 3:22 PM, Joshua Zeidner < < >>> jjzeidner at gmail.com> >>> >> jjzeidner at gmail.com> wrote: >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> I'm writing this from the Arizona Capitol. >>> >> >>> >> Paul, we don't want your racist politics here. Al Sharpton has >>> nothing >>> >> in common with the illegal aliens. You are not only a traitor to >>> >> your >>> >> country but a traitor to your own people. How can you turn against a >>> >> country that has given you so much? >>> >> >>> >> we do remember history. We remember it very well. >>> >> >>> >> Check it: >>> >> < >>> http://www.buffalosoldiermuseum.com/?linkid=410&webid=1000>< >>> http://www.buffalosoldiermuseum.com/?linkid=410&webid=1000> >>> >> >>> http://www.buffalosoldiermuseum.com/?linkid=410&webid=1000 >>> >> >>> >> -jmz >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 12:10 PM, Paul D. Miller < >>> >> < >>> anansi1 at earthlink.net>< anansi1 at earthlink.net> >>> >> anansi1 at earthlink.net> wrote: >>> >> >>> >>> Hey people - I just finished a studio session with Chuck D from >>> >>> Public >>> >>> Enemy. In the wake of Republican Governor Jan Brewer's appalling >>> >>> anti-immigrant law, me and Chuck D were rappin' and we decided to >>> >>> put >>> >>> together an update of his classic track "By The Time I get To >>> Arizona." >>> >>> >>> >>> You can download the track from here: >>> >>> >>> >>> < >>> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html>< >>> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html> >>> >>> >>> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Anyone who knows about hip hop from the early 90's remembers John >>> >>> McCain's unwillingness to endorse creating a local version of Martin >>> Luther >>> >>> King's birthday. The update here is a 21st century look in the rear >>> view >>> >>> mirror. The cliché that "those who don't learn from the past are >>> doomed to >>> >>> repeat it" still holds sway in our hyper amnesiac culture. I remixed >>> D.W. >>> >>> Griffith's infamous film Birth of a Nation with a bit of Public >>> >>> Enemy >>> in >>> >>> mind, and later on, they named an e.p. with the same name as my >>> project. Me >>> >>> and Chuck D have done several projects in the past around >>> >>> progressive, >>> non >>> >>> knucklehead hip hop. >>> >>> >>> >>> Please feel free to download this track and pass it around. We are >>> >>> the >>> >>> media. Feel free to pass it around! >>> >>> >>> >>> By the way, this is a mashup, and it's basically not really for >>> >>> sale. >>> I >>> >>> just took a riff from Philly Sound >>> >>> (< >>> http://www.funkadelphiarecords.com>< >>> >>> http://www.funkadelphiarecords.com> >>> >>> www.funkadelphiarecords.com), >>> >>> and >>> flipped it. The result, is what you >>> >>> hear here. It's free, and open. No $!! >>> >>> You can download a better resolution version of the track here: >>> >>> >>> >>> < >>> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html>< >>> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html> >>> >>> >>> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html >>> >>> >>> >>> Check it! >>> >>> >>> >>> Paul >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> > >>> > >>> > -- >>> > >>> > >>> >>> >>> -- >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to >>> reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: >>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: < >>> https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >> >> > > > -- > > > > > -- > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From taraprakash at gmail.com Wed May 5 22:18:46 2010 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 12:48:46 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Public Enemy vs Arizona: Sonic Immigration References: <16454268.1273000244857.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rubis.atl.sa.earthlink.net><43BEF6CD-4F08-4D70-8441-802751389456@earthlink.net><3BEF4339-3AD2-43F2-87EC-134B58456945@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <309EF9440C1E46CC8E68CBB37733C100@tara> "I was at the capitol yesterday, there was a nice young African American girl who was vocally against the pro-Mexico demonstrators. She came down here because she couldn't find a job in LA." Now, isn't there some kind of irony? Mexicans don't take so much risk of crossing the border because of plenty of jobs on their side of the border. Jobwise the state that seems to be doing the best is Texas, now can someone remind the history of Texas? Is it somehow connected with Mexico? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joshua Zeidner" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2010 11:38 AM Subject: [Reader-list] Public Enemy vs Arizona: Sonic Immigration > On the contrary, the African Americans are getting played by left wing > and the likes of Al Sharpton this time. > > I was at the capitol yesterday, there was a nice young African American > girl who was vocally against the pro-Mexico demonstrators. She came down > here because she couldn't find a job in LA. She shouted: "this is the new > color of conservatism". > > We've never had slavery in Arizona. It was formed after the civil war. > The African Americans played a critical role in the establishment of our > state. > > -jmz > > > > On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 11:44 PM, Paul D. Miller > wrote: > >> I'm transferring at Frankfurt airport, and took a quick glance at this >> video. I find it sad and appalling. >> >> It's galvinized me as an African American to build even more bridges >> between communities. >> >> Minorities only get played against one another when this kind of thing >> happens, and the end result is everyone loses. >> >> This kind of stuff is so dumb, it's ridiculous. >> >> It really saddens me to see fellow African Americans being played by >> right >> wing types. >> >> Paul >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On May 5, 2010, at 7:02 AM, Udai Malhotra wrote: >> >> Dear Joshua, >> >> What is the point you are trying to make by linking to this video? If >> anything it is reinforcing that you are on some straight ignorant shit. >> >> - Udai >> >> On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 9:55 AM, Joshua Zeidner < >> jjzeidner at gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcmjPgyN36g&NR=1 >>> >>> -jmz >>> >>> On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 1:28 PM, Paul D. Miller < >>> anansi1 at earthlink.net>wrote: >>> >>> > Again - this is strange non sense. >>> > 1) the track is a free giveaway so no paycheck etc >>> > >>> > Josh - this is stupid. Either up the level of the discourse or come up >>> with >>> > something more interesting. >>> > >>> > I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone that would say either me >>> or >>> > Chuck D are racist, and no, Flava Flav isn't on the track. So... >>> > >>> > What's your point? I'm just getting on a flight to Khartoum, Sudan for >>> > a >>> > project with ex child soldiers doing electronic music. >>> > >>> > Josh - if you would like to dialog about the merits of Arizona's >>> > immigration, that's ok. But being an asshole, as we've seen in >>> > Arizona, >>> > doesn't solve anyone's problems. >>> > >>> > By the way way, no, I'm not racist, and no, Public Enemy isn't racist. >>> > >>> > And I have nothing to do with Al Sharpton. >>> > >>> > Paul >>> > >>> > Sent from my iPhone >>> > >>> > On May 4, 2010, at 4:02 PM, Joshua Zeidner < >>> jjzeidner at gmail.com> wrote: >>> > >>> > >>> > sorry for getting all up in your grill hommie, but racism cuts both >>> ways. >>> > >>> > maybe you can get Flavor Flav all up in hizouse too? >>> > < >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzhpB1X-6ok> >>> > >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzhpB1X-6ok >>> > >>> > it's pretty simple that illegal aliens are modern day slavery and >>> > they >>> > destroy the lives of white and black Americans alike. Unfortunately >>> we've >>> > got selllouts like you who are willing to say anything for a paycheck. >>> > >>> > check ya later holmes, jmz >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 12:48 PM, Paul D. Miller < >>> > < >>> anansi1 at earthlink.net> >>> > anansi1 at earthlink.net> wrote: >>> > >>> >> Very strange and reactionary response. >>> >> >>> >> Joshua - can you please enlighten me on my 'racist politics' and my >>> >> relationship to Al Sharpton? >>> >> >>> >> You're sounding a bit shrill and to be completely honest, totally >>> >> irrational. >>> >> >>> >> Paul >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> Sent from my iPhone >>> >> >>> >> On May 4, 2010, at 3:22 PM, Joshua Zeidner < < >>> jjzeidner at gmail.com> >>> >> jjzeidner at gmail.com> wrote: >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> I'm writing this from the Arizona Capitol. >>> >> >>> >> Paul, we don't want your racist politics here. Al Sharpton has >>> nothing >>> >> in common with the illegal aliens. You are not only a traitor to >>> >> your >>> >> country but a traitor to your own people. How can you turn against a >>> >> country that has given you so much? >>> >> >>> >> we do remember history. We remember it very well. >>> >> >>> >> Check it: >>> >> < >>> http://www.buffalosoldiermuseum.com/?linkid=410&webid=1000>< >>> http://www.buffalosoldiermuseum.com/?linkid=410&webid=1000> >>> >> >>> http://www.buffalosoldiermuseum.com/?linkid=410&webid=1000 >>> >> >>> >> -jmz >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 12:10 PM, Paul D. Miller < >>> >> < >>> anansi1 at earthlink.net>< anansi1 at earthlink.net> >>> >> anansi1 at earthlink.net> wrote: >>> >> >>> >>> Hey people - I just finished a studio session with Chuck D from >>> >>> Public >>> >>> Enemy. In the wake of Republican Governor Jan Brewer's appalling >>> >>> anti-immigrant law, me and Chuck D were rappin' and we decided to >>> >>> put >>> >>> together an update of his classic track "By The Time I get To >>> Arizona." >>> >>> >>> >>> You can download the track from here: >>> >>> >>> >>> < >>> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html>< >>> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html> >>> >>> >>> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Anyone who knows about hip hop from the early 90's remembers John >>> >>> McCain's unwillingness to endorse creating a local version of Martin >>> Luther >>> >>> King's birthday. The update here is a 21st century look in the rear >>> view >>> >>> mirror. The cliché that "those who don't learn from the past are >>> doomed to >>> >>> repeat it" still holds sway in our hyper amnesiac culture. I remixed >>> D.W. >>> >>> Griffith's infamous film Birth of a Nation with a bit of Public >>> >>> Enemy >>> in >>> >>> mind, and later on, they named an e.p. with the same name as my >>> project. Me >>> >>> and Chuck D have done several projects in the past around >>> >>> progressive, >>> non >>> >>> knucklehead hip hop. >>> >>> >>> >>> Please feel free to download this track and pass it around. We are >>> >>> the >>> >>> media. Feel free to pass it around! >>> >>> >>> >>> By the way, this is a mashup, and it's basically not really for >>> >>> sale. >>> I >>> >>> just took a riff from Philly Sound >>> >>> (< >>> http://www.funkadelphiarecords.com>< >>> >>> http://www.funkadelphiarecords.com> >>> >>> www.funkadelphiarecords.com), >>> >>> and >>> flipped it. The result, is what you >>> >>> hear here. It's free, and open. No $!! >>> >>> You can download a better resolution version of the track here: >>> >>> >>> >>> < >>> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html>< >>> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html> >>> >>> >>> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html >>> >>> >>> >>> Check it! >>> >>> >>> >>> Paul >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> > >>> > >>> > -- >>> > >>> > >>> >>> >>> -- >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to >>> reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: >>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: < >>> https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >> >> > > > -- > > > > > -- > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From c.anupam at gmail.com Wed May 5 22:30:44 2010 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 22:30:44 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] TIME FOR TOUGH STAND In-Reply-To: <000001caec0e$20585e80$61091b80$@in> References: <000f01caeb7a$2c848420$858d8c60$@in> <000001caec0e$20585e80$61091b80$@in> Message-ID: it is really to comfortable for one to sit back and watch a few news channels, read a few headlines and call for a death sentence of a 22 year old Pakistani who was found guilty of waging war against india by 160-odd persons. initially he was labelled as a fidayeen -- a form of suicide bombings practiced in kashmir. incidentally, the 22 year old youth was caught alive on camera while killing every single person, who he thought was an indian. later, like a maneater from the corbett tales, he was caught alive in flesh and blood. now as he was found guilty, a news channel announced that state spent Rs 2 lakhs for everyday as a upkeep of this man called ajmal kasab in the prison. it is clear that the indian state doesnt want this man alive nor does any of the victim's families. vengeance is very much in the air these days. however, vengeance, even in case of personal cases is considered a legible device to justify an action in the court of law. perhaps bipin hasnt heard of the term called jurisprudence. Like other cases of retributive justice as opposed to reformative justice, a death sentence has never ever being able to make examples for the society. if by fear of being caught, one doesnt commit a crime, then one needs to just wait for the persisting conditions of the fear to be removed and immediately few killings would take place. therefore, by suggesting death sentence you are not curing the society, be it at your home or otherwise, you are throwing the society into deep abyss of neo-barbarism, where civility is replaced by fear of an authority. such forms of justice could only exist in the societies which have not evolved. and even in these societies where punishments for crimes are severe, annually a large of persons are executed, their hands chopped off. the executions have infact increased over the times in such societies. On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 10:17 AM, Bipin Trivedi wrote: > That's what I have written that case is still going on Pawan and comparison > irrelevant. Thanks for your input > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Pawan Durani [mailto:pawan.durani at gmail.com] > Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2010 10:02 AM > To: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > Cc: Bipin Trivedi; sarai-list > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] TIME FOR TOUGH STAND > > Has Col Puroshit been convicted by any of the court ? Or is it Shuddha > trying to be mischievous ? > > Pawan > > On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 4:48 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta > wrote: > > Dear Bipin, > > > > I think Kasab, Lt. Colonel Purohit, Sadhvi Pragya, the recently > > detained RSS functionaries arrested for their connections to the > > blasts in Hyderabad and Ajmer, and all others accused in terrorism > > cases should all be able to exercise their rights as accused as per > > the law. This includes the right to appeal to a higher court against > > the sentences that may be awarded to them. This is a right given in > > the Indian constitution to anyone accused in a court of law. Do you > > want this right to be changed, so that Kasab and Lt. Colonel Purohit > > both be sent to be hanged without the right of a proper defence? > > > > I hope that no one agrees with you, as that would amount to a gross > > compromise with the standards of fairness and decency which all human > > beings, regardless of their politics, need. > > > > best > > > > Shuddha > > > > On 04-May-10, at 4:38 PM, Bipin Trivedi wrote: > > > >> Though terrorist's Kasav case was crystal clear, but still we have > >> gone for > >> about 17 months fair trial and proved that how transparent our > >> judicial > >> system is unlike Pakistan. But, after this trial and judgment, he > >> should not > >> allow to appeal in the higher court and should be hanged in public > >> immediately. India should show the world that country cannot > >> compromise in > >> integrity and take hard action if required like open public death > >> sentence. > >> > >> > >> > >> Even betrayed Madhuri Gupta, who spied for Pakistan, should also > >> punished > >> death sentence without going to court of law since she admitted her > >> allegation and proved guilty. > >> > >> > >> > >> Thanks > >> > >> Bipin > >> > >> > >> > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > > Raqs Media Collective > > shuddha at sarai.net > > www.sarai.net > > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From yasir.media at gmail.com Thu May 6 00:10:17 2010 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?eWFzaXIgftmK2Kcg2LPYsQ==?=) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 23:40:17 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] 140,000 troops in FATA In-Reply-To: References: <525895.33880.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <000001caeb8c$0308d620$091a8260$@in> Message-ID: Thanks, Shuddha I am afraid it is this kind of thinking on both sides which has led to the buildup on our side. That is, the dominance of the military over civil life, of generals over politicians, the derailment of the bureaucracy in from providing services, and huge distortions in politics. The thinking here is that we need to get rid of this (to put it in a nutshell) and the sooner the better. One has to work with state. The word reform fails to convey the magnitude of the task. Relations with India are crucial on this as an external factor. There are positive signs inside Pakistan as well, in case anyone followed the Lawyers Movement and the Restoration of the Judiciary which was thrown out by the previous (Musharraf's) military government. We are going through a very interesting period in which the relationships are being renegotiated between the pillars of state, but also political entities and the army. We have ended up with an empowered media and against all odds, a reinvigorated independant Judiciary. As someone said all is flux. best On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 10:45 AM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > Dear Yasir, > > People who are unable to separate themselves from the agendas of the > militarist elites of their own states automatically assume that everyone, > everywhere in the world is exactly like them. > > Thanks for your valuable postings, > > best > > Shuddha > > > On 05-May-10, at 3:34 AM, yasir ~يا سر wrote: > > once again you have deliberately missed the point, as impossible as it is > to > do both at the same time. My point was about the people not the foreign > policy, not the army, yet you choose to mix them up, because thats what you > are refusing top separate, and see the separate entinities of the people, > the army, the govts. we are not radically democratic, only mildly so > electing the same people from the same classes, when the army is not > actively interfering in the vote counts,or runninga martial regime.. i > suggest you reread what i wrote. i dont find it of use to go in the > directions you are suggesting, since you have missed the sole point of it. > your nationalism blinds you to your own hierarchical and class realities, > you cannot breathe without. in fact it shows your inability to speak about > it. enough said. > > Buck up. perfect perfect perfect. > > > On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 6:16 PM, Bipin Trivedi wrote: > > Yes Kshemendra, you are perfectly right and good point of argument raised. > Keep it up. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net [mailto:reader-list-bounces at sarai.net > ] > On Behalf Of Kshmendra Kaul > Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 6:09 PM > To: Sarai Reader-list; yasir ~يا سر > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] 140,000 troops in FATA > > Dear Yasir > > From 'Blame-USA' you move to "Blame-India". "Land of the Pure", Pakistan's > favorite pastime; blame everyone else but itself. > > Your viewpoint of 'history' between India and Pakistan starts from 1971. > > Remember 1947-48 when Maharaja of Kashmir had to sign the "Instrument of > Accession" because Pakistan broke the "Standstill Agreement" which (unlike > India) it had signed on? In a manner of speaking, India did not 'eat up' > Kashmir but Pakistan offered it to India. > > Remember 1965 and Pakistan's 'Operation Gibraltar'? (Read Ikram Sehgal's > http://www.defencejournal.com/jul99/gibraltor-2.htm) > > Yet India was kind to Pakistan in 1971 and returned the 90,000 POWs without > getting anything in return. Rather the idiocy of Indira Gandhi in trusting > whatever Bhutto had promised her. > > Yet, the never to be trusted Pakistan went in for the sneaky Kargil > operation. > > Pakistan's build-up of Military capabilities (and connected Budgets) has as > much and more to do with it's Islamic ambitions ('thekedaar' of Islam) as > it > has to do with threat perceptions from India that it itself has provoked. > > By your logic, with India's inimical relations with China, India should be > trying to match the Defence Budget of China and more since there are two > 'enemies' to contend with, China and Pakistan. > > India's defence expenditure happens to be a lower percentage of it's GDP > when compared to Pakistan. From 2.5% of GDP in 06-07, it has come dowm to > 2.30% in 09-10 and 2.12% in 10-11. > > And yes, please make up your mind. Did India 'eat up' Hyderabad&Junagad or > Kashmir? Any logic justifying claim of 'eat up' of one would contradict > itself when applied to the other. > > Kshmendra > > --- On Mon, 5/3/10, yasir ~يا سر wrote: > > > From: yasir ~يا سر > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] 140,000 troops in FATA > To: "Sarai Reader-list" > Date: Monday, May 3, 2010, 8:21 PM > > > no sorry you totally got that from an enemy perspective. please get this > right. > > if you ask us, we will tell you the following: > the people of pakistan are the real victim, when the govt of pakistan, the > pakistan army, sold itself to the united states, becoming a mercenary state > for them. the relation is completely one-sided. what development in real > terms have we seen, take any indicator. why are we worse off with many > systems existing and functioning back in the postpartition days woefully > nonexistent or malfunctional, let alone any new systems. the answer is > quite > severe. we have a military budget which has to deal with india which is > many > itimes its size and (had been) eadger to destabilize it after breaking it > up > into 2 in 1971, and which had earlier eaten up hyderabad and kashmir. so we > are now doomed to military spending which comes anyway from the US, leaving > little in the way of major public projects which could have benefited > people > at large. Government spending was eaten by the military. if you imagine > what > kind of a present society we could have been if we had not stuck to this > stupid military buildup (you can eveluate your own side). so the war on > terror is just another day, another cloud. but it follows the covert US > action in Afghanistan against the Soviets using Afghanis and Pakistanis > then > disappearing for a decade and showing up again this time because the > militancy the americans had started, charlie wilson's war starring tom > cruise, could not be put out and took the wtc with it. sorry there is no > conspiracy here. we are getting the blame 'for not doing enough' and then > we > have to deal with your pearls of wisdom strewn from across the border. > > so dear KK, we are not asking for blood money. we are saying: having > destroyed the region, you better build it up now, to what it should be > like. > i think this is not only possible, but also a moral responsility of the US > in no uncertain terms. and we dont trust them either because of this > history. > > best > > y > > > > > On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 5:50 PM, Kshmendra Kaul > wrote: > > > USA also pays "Blood Money" to Pakistan which Pakistan accepts very > gratefully. > > In fact there is a constant clamour by many in Pakistan : "You are not > paying us enough!!!! We want more!!!! We want more!!!!" > > --- On *Mon, 5/3/10, yasir ~يا سر * wrote: > > > From: yasir ~يا سر > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] 140,000 troops in FATA > To: "Sarai Reader-list" > Date: Monday, May 3, 2010, 1:53 PM > > one needs to add much salt here: > > > - reporters are not allowed, you only get the official army version > - civilian casualties are 'normal', very high and not reported, > including > extra judicial killings and right violations > - the number of internally displaced people is huge, frequently not > taken > care of by anyone let alone by govt > - the motivation in no small measure comes from the US pressuring the > > PK > > army to show that action is being taken, which frequently leads to > unstable > conditions, rather than working with local actors with a long term > > view, > > while dealing with a guerrilla like militancy. > > > > On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 11:30 AM, S. Jabbar > http://us.mc572.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=sonia.jabbar at gmail.com>> > > wrote: > > > FRONT-PAGE > ŒPakistan has moved 100,000 troops from eastern border¹ > > By Our Correspondent > > Friday, 30 Apr, 2010 | 01:38 AM PST | > > > WASHINGTON: Pakistan has deployed 140,000 troops in Fata, moving at > > least > > 100,000 soldiers from the Indian border to back up its Œunprecedented¹ > crackdown on militants along the Afghan border, says a Pentagon report. > > In its mandatory report to the US Congress on the situation in the > Pakistan-Afghan region, the Pentagon notes that the deployment is the > biggest in the country¹s history on the western border. > > ³This unprecedented deployment and thinning of the lines against India > indicates that Islamabad has acknowledged its domestic insurgent > > threat.² > > > The Pentagon also acknowledges that Pakistani military operations in > > the > > tribal regions have had an impact across the border, placing a ³high > > degree > > of pressure on enemy forces and reduced insurgent safe haven² in > > eastern > > Afghanistan. > > The Pentagon informs Congress that recent arrests by Pakistan of Afghan > Taliban leaders, including the group¹s No. 2, Mullah Abdul Ghani > > Baradar, > > have ³increased insurgent leaders¹ concern over the security of their > > safe > > havens² and created ³financial and logistical² problems for them. > > This assessment contrasts sharply with the Afghan claim ‹ backed by > > India > > ‹ > > that the arrests have weakened Kabul¹s efforts to seek a negotiated > settlement with the Taliban leadership. > > The report quotes a senior US defence official as saying that the > > arrests > > in > Pakistan produced ³a lot of concerned chatter² among Taliban > > sympathisers > > in > Afghanistan, but there¹s no indication of ³a leadership crisis in the > Taliban². > > The Pentagon notes that so far the crackdown in Pakistan is focused > > almost > > exclusively on internal threats and that¹s why it¹s not having any > ³significant impact on the Afghan insurgency in the short term². > > But the crackdown ³offers opportunities in coming months to have a > > greater > > impact on the conflict in Afghanistan depending on how PAKMIL > > (Pakistani > > military) operations evolve,² the report adds. > > ³Pakistan has suffered attacks from terrorists in response to its > successful > operations. These attacks include mass casualty events in Mingora, > > South > > Waziristan agency close to clearing operations as well as in Lahore, > > far > > away from the fighting. ³While these attacks do not appear to have > > shaken > > Pakistan¹s commitment, they do demonstrate, for the time being, > > insurgent > > ability to continue attacks despite successful Pakistani operations,² > > the > > report warns. > > > > > > http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/ > > > > > front-page/pakistan-has-moved-100,000-troops-from-indian-border-pentagon-040< > > > > http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/%0Afront-page/pakistan-has-moved-100,000-troops-from-indian-border-pentagon-040 > > > > > Copyright © 2010 - Dawn Media Group > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net< > > http://us.mc572.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with > > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net< > > http://us.mc572.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=reader-list-request at sarai.net > >with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > From yasir.media at gmail.com Thu May 6 00:40:22 2010 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?eWFzaXIgftmK2Kcg2LPYsQ==?=) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 00:10:22 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] PK: Parliamentarians strongly demanded Pre-Budget Session; Complain about an ineffective Role of Parliament in the Budget Process Message-ID: From: PILDAT News System Date: Wed, May 5, 2010 at 7:54 PM Subject: Parliamentarians strongly demanded Pre-Budget Session; Complain about an ineffective Role of Parliament in the Budget Process *Parliamentarians strongly demanded Pre-Budget Session; Complain about an ineffective Role of Parliament in the Budget Process* *Parliamentarians believed that: * - *Government promises to take Parliamentarians on board every year before the budget but does not honour its promise* - *Parliamentarians must play their role in oversight of departmental/ministerial Budget (Demands for Grants) in Standing Committees * - *Budget Strategy Paper-I, before it is discussed in the Cabinet in December, should be discussed in the Parliament* - *Standing Committees must play a role in holding Pre-Budget public consultations with the Public, Business and Civil Society.* - *Duration of the Budget Sessions in the Parliament must be increased* - *Parliamentarians must be included in the process at least three months prior to the Budget Debating Session * Islamabad, May 05: Parliamentarians, across all political parties, including Ministers and State Ministers, demanded a pre-budget session of the Parliament and complained that Parliament has a weak and ineffective role in Parliamentary budget process. Instead of sharing Budget Strategy Paper-I and II just with Cabinet and Parliamentary Committees on Finance, Parliament and all Parliamentary Committees should be briefed about these well in time. Members of Parliament expressed these views at a PILDAT Briefing Session on *The New Budget Process in Pakistan: What Parliamentarians Should Know* today. "Every year the Government promises to take Parliamentarians on board before the budget session but every year it does not honour its promise," complained MPs. "Cabinet only merely approves the budget without much control over it, complained Mr. Azam Swati, the federal minister for Science and Technology, while others believed that while federal cabinet approves the budget there exists a huge gap between plans and allocations and the new budget process should improve that system. 48 MNAs and 15 Senators from the PPPP, PML-N, PML, MQM and ANP including representatives from FATA participated in the PILDAT briefing including 5 Federal Ministers and 3 Ministers of State. *Mr. Nohman Ishtiak*, representative of the Ministry of Finance delivered a comprehensive presentation on the new budget management reform programme introduced by the Federal Government called the Medium-Term Budgetary Framework (MTBF). He explained that the upcoming Federal Budget will be based on the model known as 'Medium-Term Budget Estimates by Service Delivery' which would present 1 year budget and 2 years projections for services (outputs) delivered by each Ministry / Division. The services are also linked with outcomes (affects on target population) and with the performance indicators and targets. He said that MTBF has already been introduced in the countries such as United States of America, Canada, Australia, Great Britain, South Africa and Japan. Now for the first time Pakistan has taken initiative to implement MTBF in its budgetary process as well. Mr. Ishtiak said that Budget is a vital instrument at both the macro and micro level in Pakistan and MTBF aims to improve the budgetary process in Pakistan. He said that MTBF hopes to bring more accountability across the board. The Federal Minister for Health, *Mr.* *Makhdoom Shahabuddin*, MNA and former Finance Minister, chaired the briefing session and conducted the Q&A session in the absence of Dr. Hafeez Shaikh, Advisor to the Prime Minister on Finance, who could not join the session. The Briefing was organized by PILDAT as a part of the *Parliamentary and Political Party Strengthening Project* being executed by PILDAT in association with the Ottawa-based *Parliamentary Centre* with the support of *Canadian Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade.* PILDAT will welcome feedback and comments at info at pildat.org If you wish to unsubscribe, please e-mail at unsubscribe at pildat.org *Recent Publications* * * Medium Term Budgetary Framework May 2010 Background Paper * * Policy Brief: Proposals for Electoral Reforms April 2010 Policy Brief * * CGEP: Proposals for Electoral Reforms Download Urdu Version March 2010 Position Paper * * Roles and Responsibilities of Ministries of Defence in India and Pakistan March 2010 Comparative Study *Links:* PILDAT Website PILDAT Events PILDAT Publications Feedback From phadkeshilpa at gmail.com Thu May 6 08:08:35 2010 From: phadkeshilpa at gmail.com (Shilpa Phadke) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 08:08:35 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: CMCS Fellowship for Early Career Film Makers In-Reply-To: References: <4BE1B41C.9040906@gmail.com> Message-ID: CMCS Fellowship for Early Career Film Makers http://cmcsecf.wordpress.com The Centre for Media and Cultural Studies www.cmcs.tiss.edu, Tata Institute of Social Sciences announces a fellowship for film-makers at an early stage of their career. The fellowship is designed to provide the resources and environment for films that are innovative, relevant and contribute to the growing body of documentary work in India. The fellowship consists of: * A stipend of Rs. 15,000 per month for a maximum period of five months. * The provision of in-house HDV equipment including camera and editing facilities. * Reimbursement of actuals of production expenses on the basis of a pre-approved budget. These expenses are expected to be in the region of Rs. 1.25 lakhs to Rs. 1.5 lakhs, depending on the logistics of the specific project. In order to be considered for the fellowship applicants are required to provide: * A detailed curriculum vitae * Up to two non-returnable samples of work on DVD/VCD. * An essay outlining the film proposal in not more than 2000 words. This essay should include: a working title for the film, language, the central theme of the film, approach to the content and narrative style, possible visual segments. * A production schedule with a detailed time frame for: research and script, cinematography, editing to rough cut, editing to final cut, submission of all material. * A budget for other production expenses (e.g. travel, field expenses, payments to other professionals etc.). Please note that the fellowship does not support any infrastructural costs such as setting up of an office, buying of equipment, or per diem costs. * Names and contact details of two referees, preferably from the field of media, whom we will contact for a reference if needed. The fellowship is open to all Indian nationals. An early career filmmaker is defined as someone who has completed her/his media education not more than 5 years ago. In case of applicants without a media degree, they should have made not more than 5 documentary or short films already. Up to two fellowships are available based on the quality of applications. Short-listed candidates may have to come for an interview in mid-July 2010. Travel for the interview will be reimbursed at the rates of three tier non-AC train fare against valid tickets. All proposals must be submitted as hard copies and signed by the film maker. For any queries please contact: _cmcs.fellowships at gmail.com >_ Last date for receipt of applications is June 7, 2010 Terms of the fellowship: o Selected fellows will be paid their fellowship amount on a monthly basis and for production expenses in instalments as and when needed. o The footage and final film produced will remain with the Digital Archive of the Centre. However, the fellow might retain a copy of the same, for her/his personal use. The copyright will be held jointly by the fellow and the Centre. The film will be distributed by the Centre as a part of its catalogue of productions. The fellow may also distribute the film. The Centre will be cited in the credits as the Producer of the film and the fellow will be cited as Director of the said film. o The fellow is expected to adhere to the time schedule s/he proposes. Any changes should be notified in advance. o There will be a small advisory committee for each project. The committee will facilitate the work of the fellow. S/he is expected to keep in touch with the committee on a regular basis and discuss and share her/his work at every stage (shooting script/ rough edit and final edit). o The fellowship(s) will be announced by July end and the fellowship period will be from September 2010 to January 2011. -- ____________________________________________________________. From ysaeed7 at yahoo.com Thu May 6 09:17:32 2010 From: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com (Yousuf) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 20:47:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Delhi university and its radioactive possessions Message-ID: <371726.28123.qm@web51401.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I am amazed that this forum is silent so far about the callousness of DU's chemistry department in selling radioactive material in scrap which led to the death of one person and serious injury of several in Delhi. And how could the university officials remain silent for 20 days when people suffered and the police was going crazy trying find out where the material came from. I wonder what else is there in store for us. ==== All radioactive sources of varsity irradiator accounted for: AERB R. Ramachandran The Atomic Energy Regulatory Board (AERB) has identified and accounted for all the cobalt-60 radioactive sources originally present in the gamma cell irradiator of the Chemistry Department of Delhi University. Stating this in a pres release here on Wednesday, the AERB said that the sources would continue to remain in the safe custody of the Department of Atomic Energy (DAE). It would be recalled that the irradiator, supplied by the Atomic Energy of Canada Ltd. (AECL) in 1968, had been in disuse since 1985 and was auctioned away to scrap dealers on February 26. This had found its way to the metal scrap market of Mayapuri in West Delhi. Without realising that there was a radioactive source in the scrap, two Mayapuri shops where the scrap had finally landed dismantled the equipment and cut open the irradiator into several pieces. This resulted in the people directly involved in the operation and handling the pieces to high doses of radiation. This caused severe radiation poisoning of seven people engaged in the scrap metal business one of whom has since died. The other six continue to battle for life – one at Apollo Hospitals and the rest at the All India Institute of Medical Sciences (AIIMS), New Delhi. Following a complete survey of the market, officials of the AERB and the National Disaster Management Authority (NDMA) stated that they located 11 radioactive sources in all — eight from one shop, two from another and one from an individual who was in its possession. Given the badly mangled state of the irradiator and its pieces, it was not clear then whether the 11 sources were all separate sources or were pieces of a single source. These radioactive materials were moved from Mayapuri in mid-April to the Narora Atomic Power Station (NAPS) in U. P. Detailed inspections of the materials recovered were carried out by the AERB officials at NAPS on May 3 and 4 following which the statement was issued. The statement clarifies that all the pieces originated from this single Delhi University gamma irradiator's Co-60 source. This also makes it clear that reports appearing in the media about ‘missing radioactive pencils' and the ‘source trail leading to Rewari (in Haryana)' were incorrect. According to S. K. Malhotra of the DAE, the reconstruction was made possible by the details of the original device that was supplied to the university in 1968, which the AERB managed to obtain from the AECL. Apparently the AECL responded to the query with great efficiency and supplied the details of the sale 42 years ago within a couple of hours. Mr. Malhotra also confirmed the initial activity of the source was over 3,000 curies (Ci). After 42 years, or 8 half-life periods of Co-60, the activity would have dropped by a factor of 2 to the power of 8, or 256, only. (One curie stands for 37 billion radioactive decays/sec.) According to the details provided by the AECL, the source chamber had provision for 54 pencils of Co-60 of which only 16 were occupied at the time of supply based on the requirements specified by the user. Each cylindrical pencil is made of 7 ‘slugs' or pieces of Co-60, each measuring about 2.5 cm x 0.6 cm stacked together and all the pencils constitute a unit that can be placed around any material to be irradiated with gamma rays. The AERB claimed that they were able to account for all the 112 slugs of the 16-pencil Co-60 source unit. Probe demanded In a related development, the Delhi University teachers' Association (DUTA) has demanded an impartial enquiry by the President of India, who is the Visitor of the university, into the callous disposal of the Co-60 source to scrap dealers. In particular, the DUTA has called for a enquiry into the constitution by the vice-chancellor of the committee that authorised its disposal and into the inexplicable silence on the part of the university authorities for as long as 20 days when the Delhi police and the AERB were groping in darkness to hunt down the origin of the radioactive material. “In this context, the speedy work by the Delhi Police in tracking down the origin to the Chemistry Department of Delhi University needs to be commended, it said. http://beta.thehindu.com/news/national/article422833.ece From shuddha at sarai.net Thu May 6 08:29:36 2010 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 08:29:36 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 140,000 troops in FATA In-Reply-To: References: <525895.33880.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <000001caeb8c$0308d620$091a8260$@in> Message-ID: Dear Yasir, Flux Zindabad. I think things are really interesting right now in Pakistan, and I hope that independent voices are able to create the terms of a new conversation. That is why I find your postings on this list, very valuable. I find it a matter of shame, that instead of recognizing the fact that you are often pointing to something new that is emerging, the die hard Indian nationalists on this list (who are the identical mirror images of their Pakistani counterparts) are not able to see anything of value in what is happening. Sometimes I wish for an uninhabited island in the Arabian sea where the jingoists of both countries could be sent to cultivate their mutual hatred, so that the rest of us, who constitute the vast majority of people in South Asia, could get on with our lives. Of course, I know that that is neither possible, nor desirable, (and as far as I know there are no uninhabited islands in the Arabian Sea) so we will have to keep arguing with them, and strengthening our bonds across the obscenity of borders. best, and in solidarity, Shuddha On 06-May-10, at 12:10 AM, yasir ~يا سر wrote: > Thanks, Shuddha > > I am afraid it is this kind of thinking on both sides which has led > to the > buildup on our side. That is, the dominance of the military over > civil life, > of generals over politicians, the derailment of the bureaucracy in > from > providing services, and huge distortions in politics. The thinking > here is > that we need to get rid of this (to put it in a nutshell) and the > sooner the > better. > > One has to work with state. The word reform fails to convey the > magnitude of > the task. Relations with India are crucial on this as an external > factor. There are positive signs inside Pakistan as well, in case > anyone > followed the Lawyers Movement and the Restoration of the Judiciary > which was > thrown out by the previous (Musharraf's) military government. We > are going > through a very interesting period in which the relationships are being > renegotiated between the pillars of state, but also political > entities and > the army. We have ended up with an empowered media and against all > odds, a > reinvigorated independant Judiciary. As someone said all is flux. > > best > > > > On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 10:45 AM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta > wrote: > >> Dear Yasir, >> >> People who are unable to separate themselves from the agendas of the >> militarist elites of their own states automatically assume that >> everyone, >> everywhere in the world is exactly like them. >> >> Thanks for your valuable postings, >> >> best >> >> Shuddha >> >> >> On 05-May-10, at 3:34 AM, yasir ~يا سر wrote: >> >> once again you have deliberately missed the point, as impossible >> as it is >> to >> do both at the same time. My point was about the people not the >> foreign >> policy, not the army, yet you choose to mix them up, because thats >> what you >> are refusing top separate, and see the separate entinities of the >> people, >> the army, the govts. we are not radically democratic, only mildly so >> electing the same people from the same classes, when the army is not >> actively interfering in the vote counts,or runninga martial >> regime.. i >> suggest you reread what i wrote. i dont find it of use to go in the >> directions you are suggesting, since you have missed the sole >> point of it. >> your nationalism blinds you to your own hierarchical and class >> realities, >> you cannot breathe without. in fact it shows your inability to >> speak about >> it. enough said. >> >> Buck up. perfect perfect perfect. >> >> >> On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 6:16 PM, Bipin Trivedi >> wrote: >> >> Yes Kshemendra, you are perfectly right and good point of argument >> raised. >> Keep it up. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net [mailto:reader-list- >> bounces at sarai.net >> ] >> On Behalf Of Kshmendra Kaul >> Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 6:09 PM >> To: Sarai Reader-list; yasir ~يا سر >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] 140,000 troops in FATA >> >> Dear Yasir >> >> From 'Blame-USA' you move to "Blame-India". "Land of the Pure", >> Pakistan's >> favorite pastime; blame everyone else but itself. >> >> Your viewpoint of 'history' between India and Pakistan starts from >> 1971. >> >> Remember 1947-48 when Maharaja of Kashmir had to sign the >> "Instrument of >> Accession" because Pakistan broke the "Standstill Agreement" which >> (unlike >> India) it had signed on? In a manner of speaking, India did not >> 'eat up' >> Kashmir but Pakistan offered it to India. >> >> Remember 1965 and Pakistan's 'Operation Gibraltar'? (Read Ikram >> Sehgal's >> http://www.defencejournal.com/jul99/gibraltor-2.htm) >> >> Yet India was kind to Pakistan in 1971 and returned the 90,000 >> POWs without >> getting anything in return. Rather the idiocy of Indira Gandhi in >> trusting >> whatever Bhutto had promised her. >> >> Yet, the never to be trusted Pakistan went in for the sneaky Kargil >> operation. >> >> Pakistan's build-up of Military capabilities (and connected >> Budgets) has as >> much and more to do with it's Islamic ambitions ('thekedaar' of >> Islam) as >> it >> has to do with threat perceptions from India that it itself has >> provoked. >> >> By your logic, with India's inimical relations with China, India >> should be >> trying to match the Defence Budget of China and more since there >> are two >> 'enemies' to contend with, China and Pakistan. >> >> India's defence expenditure happens to be a lower percentage of >> it's GDP >> when compared to Pakistan. From 2.5% of GDP in 06-07, it has come >> dowm to >> 2.30% in 09-10 and 2.12% in 10-11. >> >> And yes, please make up your mind. Did India 'eat up' >> Hyderabad&Junagad or >> Kashmir? Any logic justifying claim of 'eat up' of one would >> contradict >> itself when applied to the other. >> >> Kshmendra >> >> --- On Mon, 5/3/10, yasir ~يا سر wrote: >> >> >> From: yasir ~يا سر >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] 140,000 troops in FATA >> To: "Sarai Reader-list" >> Date: Monday, May 3, 2010, 8:21 PM >> >> >> no sorry you totally got that from an enemy perspective. please >> get this >> right. >> >> if you ask us, we will tell you the following: >> the people of pakistan are the real victim, when the govt of >> pakistan, the >> pakistan army, sold itself to the united states, becoming a >> mercenary state >> for them. the relation is completely one-sided. what development >> in real >> terms have we seen, take any indicator. why are we worse off with >> many >> systems existing and functioning back in the postpartition days >> woefully >> nonexistent or malfunctional, let alone any new systems. the >> answer is >> quite >> severe. we have a military budget which has to deal with india >> which is >> many >> itimes its size and (had been) eadger to destabilize it after >> breaking it >> up >> into 2 in 1971, and which had earlier eaten up hyderabad and >> kashmir. so we >> are now doomed to military spending which comes anyway from the >> US, leaving >> little in the way of major public projects which could have benefited >> people >> at large. Government spending was eaten by the military. if you >> imagine >> what >> kind of a present society we could have been if we had not stuck >> to this >> stupid military buildup (you can eveluate your own side). so the >> war on >> terror is just another day, another cloud. but it follows the >> covert US >> action in Afghanistan against the Soviets using Afghanis and >> Pakistanis >> then >> disappearing for a decade and showing up again this time because the >> militancy the americans had started, charlie wilson's war starring >> tom >> cruise, could not be put out and took the wtc with it. sorry there >> is no >> conspiracy here. we are getting the blame 'for not doing enough' >> and then >> we >> have to deal with your pearls of wisdom strewn from across the >> border. >> >> so dear KK, we are not asking for blood money. we are saying: having >> destroyed the region, you better build it up now, to what it >> should be >> like. >> i think this is not only possible, but also a moral responsility >> of the US >> in no uncertain terms. and we dont trust them either because of this >> history. >> >> best >> >> y >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 5:50 PM, Kshmendra Kaul >> > >> wrote: >> >> >> USA also pays "Blood Money" to Pakistan which Pakistan accepts very >> gratefully. >> >> In fact there is a constant clamour by many in Pakistan : "You are >> not >> paying us enough!!!! We want more!!!! We want more!!!!" >> >> --- On *Mon, 5/3/10, yasir ~يا سر * wrote: >> >> >> From: yasir ~يا سر >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] 140,000 troops in FATA >> To: "Sarai Reader-list" >> Date: Monday, May 3, 2010, 1:53 PM >> >> one needs to add much salt here: >> >> >> - reporters are not allowed, you only get the official army >> version >> - civilian casualties are 'normal', very high and not reported, >> including >> extra judicial killings and right violations >> - the number of internally displaced people is huge, frequently >> not >> taken >> care of by anyone let alone by govt >> - the motivation in no small measure comes from the US >> pressuring the >> >> PK >> >> army to show that action is being taken, which frequently leads to >> unstable >> conditions, rather than working with local actors with a long term >> >> view, >> >> while dealing with a guerrilla like militancy. >> >> >> >> On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 11:30 AM, S. Jabbar > >> http://us.mc572.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=sonia.jabbar at gmail.com>> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> FRONT-PAGE >> ŒPakistan has moved 100,000 troops from eastern border¹ >> >> By Our Correspondent >> >> Friday, 30 Apr, 2010 | 01:38 AM PST | >> >> >> WASHINGTON: Pakistan has deployed 140,000 troops in Fata, moving at >> >> least >> >> 100,000 soldiers from the Indian border to back up its >> Œunprecedented¹ >> crackdown on militants along the Afghan border, says a Pentagon >> report. >> >> In its mandatory report to the US Congress on the situation in the >> Pakistan-Afghan region, the Pentagon notes that the deployment is the >> biggest in the country¹s history on the western border. >> >> ³This unprecedented deployment and thinning of the lines against >> India >> indicates that Islamabad has acknowledged its domestic insurgent >> >> threat.² >> >> >> The Pentagon also acknowledges that Pakistani military operations in >> >> the >> >> tribal regions have had an impact across the border, placing a ³high >> >> degree >> >> of pressure on enemy forces and reduced insurgent safe haven² in >> >> eastern >> >> Afghanistan. >> >> The Pentagon informs Congress that recent arrests by Pakistan of >> Afghan >> Taliban leaders, including the group¹s No. 2, Mullah Abdul Ghani >> >> Baradar, >> >> have ³increased insurgent leaders¹ concern over the security of >> their >> >> safe >> >> havens² and created ³financial and logistical² problems for them. >> >> This assessment contrasts sharply with the Afghan claim ‹ backed by >> >> India >> >> ‹ >> >> that the arrests have weakened Kabul¹s efforts to seek a negotiated >> settlement with the Taliban leadership. >> >> The report quotes a senior US defence official as saying that the >> >> arrests >> >> in >> Pakistan produced ³a lot of concerned chatter² among Taliban >> >> sympathisers >> >> in >> Afghanistan, but there¹s no indication of ³a leadership crisis in >> the >> Taliban². >> >> The Pentagon notes that so far the crackdown in Pakistan is focused >> >> almost >> >> exclusively on internal threats and that¹s why it¹s not having any >> ³significant impact on the Afghan insurgency in the short term². >> >> But the crackdown ³offers opportunities in coming months to have a >> >> greater >> >> impact on the conflict in Afghanistan depending on how PAKMIL >> >> (Pakistani >> >> military) operations evolve,² the report adds. >> >> ³Pakistan has suffered attacks from terrorists in response to its >> successful >> operations. These attacks include mass casualty events in Mingora, >> >> South >> >> Waziristan agency close to clearing operations as well as in Lahore, >> >> far >> >> away from the fighting. ³While these attacks do not appear to have >> >> shaken >> >> Pakistan¹s commitment, they do demonstrate, for the time being, >> >> insurgent >> >> ability to continue attacks despite successful Pakistani >> operations,² >> >> the >> >> report warns. >> >> >> >> >> >> http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/the- >> newspaper/ >> >> >> >> >> front-page/pakistan-has-moved-100,000-troops-from-indian-border- >> pentagon-040< >> >> >> >> http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/the- >> newspaper/%0Afront-page/pakistan-has-moved-100,000-troops-from- >> indian-border-pentagon-040 >> >> >> >> >> Copyright © 2010 - Dawn Media Group >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net< >> >> http://us.mc572.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=reader-list- >> request at sarai.net >> >> with >> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net< >> >> http://us.mc572.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=reader-list- >> request at sarai.net >>> with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >> Raqs Media Collective >> shuddha at sarai.net >> www.sarai.net >> www.raqsmediacollective.net >> >> >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From pawan.durani at gmail.com Thu May 6 09:55:06 2010 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 09:55:06 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Shahzad is of Kashmiri descent ? In-Reply-To: <982658.94311.qm@web112111.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <982658.94311.qm@web112111.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Sir, I never mentioned that. I have forwarded an article . Maybe in Pakistan it is allowed. As after all any absurd thing can happen there in the name of Jihad and religious extremism. Failed state do not have any control. Pawan On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 8:23 PM, A.K. Malik wrote: > Dear Mr Durani, >                Since when Kashmiri nationality being accepted in passport applications? > Regards, > > (A.K.MALIK) > > > --- On Wed, 5/5/10, Pawan Durani wrote: > >> From: Pawan Durani >> Subject: [Reader-list] Shahzad is of Kashmiri descent ? >> To: "reader-list" >> Date: Wednesday, May 5, 2010, 6:17 PM >> http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1987126,00.html?xid=rss-topstories >> >> The Times Square car bomb failed to detonate, but it could >> yet cause >> political reverberations around two questions: Should the >> government >> have known about the plot and its alleged perpetrator? And >> does using >> the rules of the criminal-justice system against a man >> accused of >> plotting a terror attack against America leave the country >> more >> vulnerable? So far, the answers to both questions seem to >> be breaking >> in favor of the Obama Administration, but it's early days >> yet. And >> questions have been raised over how Faisal Shahzad managed >> to board >> the Dubai-bound flight on which he was arrested shortly >> before takeoff >> Tuesday at JFK International Airport despite being under >> surveillance >> by the FBI. >> The criminal complaint against Shahzad alleges that he >> received >> bombmaking training in a militant camp in western Pakistan. >> Still, the >> suspect appears not to have previously registered on the >> radar of the >> U.S. security bureaucracy through any known association >> with terrorist >> or radical groups. >> (See pictures of the car bomb's discovery in Times >> Square.) >> Pakistani government officials told TIME on Tuesday that >> Shahzad is of >> Kashmiri descent and the son of a former top Pakistani >> air-force >> officer. On his most recent Pakistani passport application, >> he had >> given his nationality as Kashmiri — a fact that some >> analysts suspect >> might tie him to militant groups based in Pakistan >> originally formed >> to fight Indian control of the divided territory. An >> official in >> Islamabad said Pakistani authorities are investigating >> whether he had >> ties to any Kashmiri jihadist groups. During his latest >> spell in >> Pakistan, Shahzad was also said to have spent significant >> time in >> Peshawar, the capital of the North-West Frontier Province, >> where >> Islamabad has waged a fierce war against Taliban >> militants. >> A Pakistani government source, speaking on condition of >> anonymity, >> told TIME on Tuesday that the suspect had had ties with >> militants >> while in Pakistan. "He was here at a training camp," the >> source said. >> The legal complaint against Shahzad, which charged him with >> terrorism >> and attempting to use a weapon of mass destruction, said he >> admitted >> to receiving bombmaking training in Waziristan, the lawless >> tribal >> hotbed of militancy. Pakistani officials claim that there >> have been a >> number of arrests in Karachi of people suspected by >> authorities of >> having a connection with the suspect. "There will be more >> arrests >> before the night is out," a senior government source told >> TIME. >> (See the TIME 100 list of the world's most influential >> people.) >> But so far, the only indication that Shahzad had raised any >> suspicion >> among U.S. officials is the fact that he underwent >> secondary screening >> at the airport upon his return to the U.S. earlier this >> year. >> According to Congresswoman Jane Harman, chairman of the >> Homeland >> Security Subcommittee on Intelligence, Shahzad was pulled >> aside and >> gave "critical contact information that was entered into >> the system >> and used in his arrest yesterday." >> At a press conference in Washington Tuesday, Homeland >> Security >> Secretary Janet Napolitano said Shahzad had been screened >> "because >> some of the targeting rules applied," but declined to >> elaborate. At >> the same press conference, FBI deputy director John Pistole >> said, >> "There are a number of steps that are taken to identify >> potential >> terrorists, whether that's the country from which they >> originate, in >> terms of terrorist training camps, or the individuals they >> associate >> with." The fact that he appears to have briefly evaded >> surveillance to >> buy a ticket and board a flight out of the country also >> raised concern >> among legislators, although Attorney General Eric Holder >> insists there >> was never any danger of Shahzad slipping through the net. >> Despite the allegation that he trained in Waziristan, >> Shahzad can't >> have been any jihadist professor's star student: the bomb >> contraption >> he is alleged to have built was so dysfunctional that it >> could have >> illustrated a how-not-to-build-a-bomb manual. Perhaps the >> good news is >> that jihadist training may have deteriorated as networks >> based in >> Afghanistan and Pakistan have come under sustained attack >> from the >> U.S. and its allies. >> More distressingly, the case could highlight a downside of >> the >> U.S.-led war against terrorism since 9/11: while wars in >> Afghanistan >> and Iraq — and drone strikes in Pakistan — have killed >> hundreds of >> militants, those who survive tend to operate more >> independently, and >> there are plenty more willing to join them. >> "We haven't bent their determination one bit, but these are >> smaller, >> lower-quality efforts," says Brian Jenkins, a terrorism >> expert at the >> Rand Corp. "We have managed to break up their capability to >> conduct >> large-scale, centrally directed operations," he adds. >> "Clearly there's >> a quality-control problem. So they're exhorting violence by >> locals, to >> do whatever they can, wherever they are." Instead of >> 9/11-style >> attacks carried out under direct orders from Osama bin >> Laden and >> lieutenants, recent efforts have been attempted by more >> amateurish >> lone wolves. >> And Americans should not take too much comfort from the >> ineptitude of >> the Times Square bombmaker. "If Major [Nidal] Hasan had >> jumped up on >> the desk at Fort Hood and shouted 'Allahu akbar' and his >> guns jammed, >> he would have looked like a buffoon," says Ralph Peters, a >> retired >> Army officer who writes often about terrorism. "But his >> guns didn't >> jam. This guy didn't get it right — he didn't know how to >> do bombs — >> but the next guy might know how to do bombs." >> Coming after months of fierce debate between congressional >> Republicans >> and the Administration over the appropriate legal strategy >> for dealing >> with terror suspects, Shahzad's treatment after his arrest >> was always >> going to be controversial. At Tuesday's press conference, >> Pistole said >> that "Joint Terrorism Task Force agents and officers from >> NYPD >> interviewed Mr. Shahzad last night and early this morning >> under the >> public-safety exception to the Miranda rule. He was, as the >> Attorney >> General noted, cooperative, and provided valuable >> intelligence and >> evidence. He was eventually transported to another >> location, >> Mirandized and continued talking." >> Before hearing that Shahzad had been read his rights, >> Republican >> Senator John McCain of Arizona said, "I don't believe >> [people like >> Shahzad] should be given Miranda rights ... [in case] he >> gets lawyered >> up and doesn't give any information. We need information to >> know how >> this thing happened." Peter King, the senior Republican on >> the House >> Homeland Security Committee, said the Attorney General >> should discuss >> reading Shahzad his rights with the intelligence community >> before >> doing so. >> As details of the arrest began to emerge, legislators from >> both >> parties were effusive in their praise for the efforts of >> the U.S. >> law-enforcement community, though the GOP leadership has >> been more >> circumspect on the issue of Shahzad's handling. Senate >> minority leader >> Mitch McConnell said Tuesday, "Hopefully the appropriate >> officials are >> using this opportunity to exploit as much intelligence as >> he may have >> about his overseas connections and any other plots against >> Americans >> either here or abroad." >> But the controversy over Mirandizing terror suspects is >> unlikely to go >> away: Connecticut independent Senator Joe Lieberman >> announced Tuesday >> that he plans to propose a bill stripping the citizenship >> of those >> Americans deemed by the U.S. intelligence community to have >> joined >> foreign terror networks. Presumably the Shahzad case, as it >> unfolds, >> will feature in that debate on Capitol Hill. >> — With reporting by Katy Steinmetz / Washington; Omar >> Waraich / Islamabad >> >> >> Read more: http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1987126,00.html?xid=rss-topstories#ixzz0n3hcLe8c >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the >> city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >> with subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: > > > > From pawan.durani at gmail.com Thu May 6 09:58:33 2010 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 09:58:33 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Sermons & Apologists Message-ID: An apologist . Indian nationalists in this group are not the one who go on killing people . They are not the one who wage wars. We dont need sermons from those whose own credentials are doubtful and well known to many in this group only. Pawan From shahzulf at yahoo.com Thu May 6 10:04:20 2010 From: shahzulf at yahoo.com (Zulfiqar Shah) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 21:34:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Sourcing Haidarabad: A Travelogue Write Up by Kanak Mani Dixit Message-ID: <423934.4156.qm@web38804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Sourcing Haidarabad Kanak Mani Dixit Even though PIA Flight 269 was bound from Kathmandu to Karachi, I was excited to visit the Sindhi Hyderabad. For too long, the Deccan city and capital of Andhra, with its IT glamour, had wrested the limelight from its humbler counterpart. Lo! Even the screen indicating the Pakistani Airbus’s flight-path showed the Deccan Hyderabad, but not the city by the Indus to which I was bound. >From the Karachi airport, ‘Haidarabad’, as it is properly pronounced, is a two-and-a-half-hour drive through the rolling desert along the M9 motorway. The city is reached after descending a plateau and crossing a rivulet – in actuality, the great River Indus in its emaciated present-day avatar. There, a traveller crosses eastward, over a bridge that seems too long for a flow this miniscule, even though it is supposed to be the consolidated flow of all six tributaries upstream. India has tapped the three eastern rivers under the auspices of the Indus River Treaty, and Pakistani Punjab takes copious draughts from the remaining three. The inhabitants of Sindh seem impelled by the force of history to speak of their great past – the great Indus civilisation and its archaeological remains, the conquests of Iskandar, the rise of the Sindhi language, Buddhism, Sufism and the arrival of Islam. Those were the times when the Indus flowed with strength, and contrasts with a beleaguered present are unavoidable. With the river nearly gone, Sindhis seek to preserve their pride in the Ajrak block-printed shawls that are presented to visitors, and in the vibrant Sindhi press that challenges Urdu as the language of political discourse. The Sindhi heart does seem to throb for more agency within the Punjab-dominated Pakistani state. News comes on radio and television of the Parliament in Islamabad having adopted the 18th Amendment amidst much jubilation. In ‘Haidarabad’, the Sindhi nationalists had called a closure of the city, refusing to be taken in by what they said was a fraudulent federalism. Said one activist, “All we got was the colonial spelling of ‘Sind’ changed to ‘Sindh’, just as ‘Baluchistan’ became ‘Balochistan’.” If it took six decades to add the ‘h’ and replace the ‘u’, how much longer for real federalism to come about? Well past midnight, we travelled north along the N5 highway and arrive at Bhitshah, with its shrine of the mystic Shah Abdul Latif. Men and women mill about amidst the chanting of Sufi minstrels; the faithful taken over by sleep lie down amidst the many graves surrounding the mausoleum. The rule appears to be: The more arid the climate, the more inhospitable the terrain, the higher the level of humanist philosophy. This is probably why the great Sufi saints lived here, nurturing their syncretistic and inclusive faith in this Sindhi-Seraiki-Punjabi strip of territory along the Indus. Wrote Shah Latif in the early 1700s, as if he had been talking of Sindh today, in this translation by the late D H Butani: Tell me the stories, oh thorn-brush, Of the mighty merchants of the Indus, Of the nights and the days of the prosperous times, Are you in pain now, oh thorn-brush? Because they have departed: In protest, cease to flower. Oh thorn-brush, how old were you When the river was in full flood? The river is littered with mud And the banks grow only straws The river has lost its old strength. Even so, the cultural activists of Sindh hardly seem morose – theirs is an open and self-questioning attitude, with the rigidities of faith seemingly absent. They may be nationalist, but the secular bedrock of Sindhi Sufism seems to preclude chauvinism. Though these activists of ‘Haidarabad’ may seem insular in their nationalist aspirations, they are very aware that they form part of the Southasian mosaic. And it is okay to place transparent gin in mineral water bottles as you decided to let your hair down in public. If the Subcontinent is to take advantage of its possibilities, some states and provinces will have to play more of a part than others. Sindh is likely to show the way. If it can wrest more agency from the Pakistani state, it will first ensure the advancement of the population within. But thereafter, it will point the way to the kind of Southasia we should be envisioning: a group of nation states whose provinces and states communicate, interact, trade and revive the penumbra of cultures, making us just as we used to be. But does it make sense to talk about a federal ‘soft border’ Southasia when a fence has been put up to separate Sindh from Rajasthan and Gujarat? The hope is that this fence – and the pillboxes, searchlights and service track – will deteriorate the moment there is a better understanding across borders. For this, the units of Southasia, more than its central establishments, have to have a say. In the Nagar Parkar desert in eastern Sindh, there is a ‘vulture restaurant’, run by the Dhartee Development Society, an NGO. The ‘restaurant’ provides clean animal carcasses for vultures, which are vulnerable to livestock that have been tainted by the drug Diclofenac, an anti-inflammation and pain-reliever drug. Nagar Parkar lies right by the Indian frontier, a stone’s throw from the India-Pakistan border fence. Rajasthani vultures know enough to overfly and alight at Nagar Parkar, to partake of the delicacies put up by the environmentalists of Sindh. Left to the Sindhis, human denizens would be able to do this too, and sooner than later. Courtesy: Himal Southasian http://www.himalmag.com/Sourcing-Haidarabad_nw4487.html   From aliens at dataone.in Thu May 6 11:20:45 2010 From: aliens at dataone.in (Bipin Trivedi) Date: Thu, 06 May 2010 11:20:45 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] PAKISTAN PEOPLE VOICE In-Reply-To: References: <525895.33880.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <000001caeb8c$0308d620$091a8260$@in> <000301caec1e$55eb04c0$01c10e40$@in> Message-ID: <001c01caece0$13878b40$3a96a1c0$@in> Dear Yasir, I appreciate that you oppose your politician and army policies/agenda, but how many people are of the view of such opposite stand? With the few people opposition the purpose will not serve and the things remain the same. In India also the majority times ruled congress party has no internal election since about 25 years. Anyway, if you have given authority to initiate dialogue between India-Pak than what will be your agenda? Can you share views? Thanks Bipin -----Original Message----- From: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net [mailto:reader-list-bounces at sarai.net] On Behalf Of yasir ~?? ?? Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2010 12:59 PM To: Sarai Reader-list Subject: Re: [Reader-list] 140,000 troops in FATA sorry the policies of the govt may not reflect the will of the people, if democracy is weak. its gotten better with a freer media influencing the government over the last 10 years. if you dont have regular elections, the only other way for a govt, especially military govt to stay in touch with people in through intelligence gathering by intelligence agencies operating within the country. and in pakistan they have ALWAYS manipulated the election to get the desired results out of parliamentarians careers. imagine majors and colonels negotiating with to be elected parliamentarians about what they want or else. the last election was a bit better, but we need several cycles before the corrupt get cleared or adapt. believe it or not this is how disconnected we are. there is an insurgency inbaluchistan, there are separatist movements, and a war in khyber-pakhtunkhwa, and then, a huge population that is totally disconnected from any political process, who are the majority of the people of pakistan and have absolutely no expectation of the govt. In the recent 18th Amendment to the Constitution, they have dropped the requirement for political parties to have internal elections. Just imagine what kind of people are sitting in govt. I cannot call them representative. i am sure it is just a little bit different in india. From jjzeidner at gmail.com Thu May 6 11:37:57 2010 From: jjzeidner at gmail.com (Joshua Zeidner) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 23:07:57 -0700 Subject: [Reader-list] Public Enemy vs Arizona: Sonic Immigration In-Reply-To: <309EF9440C1E46CC8E68CBB37733C100@tara> References: <16454268.1273000244857.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rubis.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <43BEF6CD-4F08-4D70-8441-802751389456@earthlink.net> <3BEF4339-3AD2-43F2-87EC-134B58456945@earthlink.net> <309EF9440C1E46CC8E68CBB37733C100@tara> Message-ID: Well, I just got back from the Phoenix rally. If any of you think that the SB1070 bill is about racial profiling, you are out of your mind. The bulk of the crowd was a semi-violent mob with Mexican and _USSR_ flags (no joke). They were proudly displaying their concept of history, which is that of right to ownership of the American southwest. Many of them were clearly mafia thugs. -jmz On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 9:48 AM, TaraPrakash wrote: > "I was at the capitol yesterday, there was a nice young African American > girl who was vocally against the pro-Mexico demonstrators. She came down > here because she couldn't find a job in LA." > > Now, isn't there some kind of irony? Mexicans don't take so much risk of > crossing the border because of plenty of jobs on their side of the border. > Jobwise the state that seems to be doing the best is Texas, now can someone > remind the history of Texas? Is it somehow connected with Mexico? > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joshua Zeidner" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2010 11:38 AM > Subject: [Reader-list] Public Enemy vs Arizona: Sonic Immigration > > > On the contrary, the African Americans are getting played by left wing >> and the likes of Al Sharpton this time. >> >> I was at the capitol yesterday, there was a nice young African American >> girl who was vocally against the pro-Mexico demonstrators. She came down >> here because she couldn't find a job in LA. She shouted: "this is the new >> color of conservatism". >> >> We've never had slavery in Arizona. It was formed after the civil war. >> The African Americans played a critical role in the establishment of our >> state. >> >> -jmz >> >> >> >> On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 11:44 PM, Paul D. Miller > >wrote: >> >> I'm transferring at Frankfurt airport, and took a quick glance at this >>> video. I find it sad and appalling. >>> >>> It's galvinized me as an African American to build even more bridges >>> between communities. >>> >>> Minorities only get played against one another when this kind of thing >>> happens, and the end result is everyone loses. >>> >>> This kind of stuff is so dumb, it's ridiculous. >>> >>> It really saddens me to see fellow African Americans being played by >>> right >>> wing types. >>> >>> Paul >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On May 5, 2010, at 7:02 AM, Udai Malhotra >>> wrote: >>> >>> Dear Joshua, >>> >>> What is the point you are trying to make by linking to this video? If >>> anything it is reinforcing that you are on some straight ignorant shit. >>> >>> - Udai >>> >>> On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 9:55 AM, Joshua Zeidner < >>> jjzeidner at gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> >>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcmjPgyN36g&NR=1 >>>> >>>> -jmz >>>> >>>> On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 1:28 PM, Paul D. Miller < >>> > >>>> anansi1 at earthlink.net>wrote: >>>> >>>> > Again - this is strange non sense. >>>> > 1) the track is a free giveaway so no paycheck etc >>>> > >>>> > Josh - this is stupid. Either up the level of the discourse or come up >>>> with >>>> > something more interesting. >>>> > >>>> > I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone that would say either me >>>> or >>>> > Chuck D are racist, and no, Flava Flav isn't on the track. So... >>>> > >>>> > What's your point? I'm just getting on a flight to Khartoum, Sudan for >>>> > a >>>> > project with ex child soldiers doing electronic music. >>>> > >>>> > Josh - if you would like to dialog about the merits of Arizona's >>>> > immigration, that's ok. But being an asshole, as we've seen in > >>>> Arizona, >>>> > doesn't solve anyone's problems. >>>> > >>>> > By the way way, no, I'm not racist, and no, Public Enemy isn't racist. >>>> > >>>> > And I have nothing to do with Al Sharpton. >>>> > >>>> > Paul >>>> > >>>> > Sent from my iPhone >>>> > >>>> > On May 4, 2010, at 4:02 PM, Joshua Zeidner < >>>> jjzeidner at gmail.com> wrote: >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > sorry for getting all up in your grill hommie, but racism cuts both >>>> ways. >>>> > >>>> > maybe you can get Flavor Flav all up in hizouse too? >>>> > < >>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzhpB1X-6ok> >>>> > >>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzhpB1X-6ok >>>> > >>>> > it's pretty simple that illegal aliens are modern day slavery and > >>>> they >>>> > destroy the lives of white and black Americans alike. Unfortunately >>>> we've >>>> > got selllouts like you who are willing to say anything for a paycheck. >>>> > >>>> > check ya later holmes, jmz >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 12:48 PM, Paul D. Miller < > << >>>> anansi1 at earthlink.net> >>>> anansi1 at earthlink.net> >>>> > anansi1 at earthlink.net> wrote: >>>> > >>>> >> Very strange and reactionary response. >>>> >> >>>> >> Joshua - can you please enlighten me on my 'racist politics' and my >>>> >> relationship to Al Sharpton? >>>> >> >>>> >> You're sounding a bit shrill and to be completely honest, totally >>>> >> irrational. >>>> >> >>>> >> Paul >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >> >>>> >> On May 4, 2010, at 3:22 PM, Joshua Zeidner < < >>>> jjzeidner at gmail.com> >>>> >> jjzeidner at gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> I'm writing this from the Arizona Capitol. >>>> >> >>>> >> Paul, we don't want your racist politics here. Al Sharpton has >>>> nothing >>>> >> in common with the illegal aliens. You are not only a traitor to >> >>>> your >>>> >> country but a traitor to your own people. How can you turn against a >>>> >> country that has given you so much? >>>> >> >>>> >> we do remember history. We remember it very well. >>>> >> >>>> >> Check it: >> << >>>> http://www.buffalosoldiermuseum.com/?linkid=410&webid=1000> >>>> http://www.buffalosoldiermuseum.com/?linkid=410&webid=1000><< >>>> http://www.buffalosoldiermuseum.com/?linkid=410&webid=1000> >>>> http://www.buffalosoldiermuseum.com/?linkid=410&webid=1000> >>>> >> >>>> http://www.buffalosoldiermuseum.com/?linkid=410&webid=1000 >>>> >> >>>> >> -jmz >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 12:10 PM, Paul D. Miller < >> << >>>> anansi1 at earthlink.net> >>>> anansi1 at earthlink.net>< anansi1 at earthlink.net> >>>> >>>> >> anansi1 at earthlink.net> wrote: >>>> >> >>>> >>> Hey people - I just finished a studio session with Chuck D from >>> >>>> Public >>>> >>> Enemy. In the wake of Republican Governor Jan Brewer's appalling >>>> >>> anti-immigrant law, me and Chuck D were rappin' and we decided to >>>> >>> put >>>> >>> together an update of his classic track "By The Time I get To >>>> Arizona." >>>> >>> >>>> >>> You can download the track from here: >>>> >>> >>>> >>> < >>>> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html><< >>>> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html> >>>> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html> >>>> >>> >>>> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Anyone who knows about hip hop from the early 90's remembers John >>>> >>> McCain's unwillingness to endorse creating a local version of Martin >>>> Luther >>>> >>> King's birthday. The update here is a 21st century look in the rear >>>> view >>>> >>> mirror. The cliché that "those who don't learn from the past are >>>> doomed to >>>> >>> repeat it" still holds sway in our hyper amnesiac culture. I remixed >>>> D.W. >>>> >>> Griffith's infamous film Birth of a Nation with a bit of Public >>> >>>> Enemy >>>> in >>>> >>> mind, and later on, they named an e.p. with the same name as my >>>> project. Me >>>> >>> and Chuck D have done several projects in the past around >>> >>>> progressive, >>>> non >>>> >>> knucklehead hip hop. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Please feel free to download this track and pass it around. We are >>>> >>> the >>>> >>> media. Feel free to pass it around! >>>> >>> >>>> >>> By the way, this is a mashup, and it's basically not really for >>> >>>> sale. >>>> I >>>> >>> just took a riff from Philly Sound >>> (<< >>>> http://www.funkadelphiarecords.com> >>>> http://www.funkadelphiarecords.com>< < >>>> http://www.funkadelphiarecords.com> >>>> >>>> http://www.funkadelphiarecords.com> >>>> >>> www.funkadelphiarecords.com), >>>> >>> and >>>> flipped it. The result, is what you >>>> >>> hear here. It's free, and open. No $!! >>>> >>> You can download a better resolution version of the track here: >>>> >>> >>>> >>> < >>>> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html><< >>>> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html> >>>> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html> >>>> >>> >>>> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Check it! >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Paul >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > -- >>>> > >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to >>>> reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: >>>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: < >>>> https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> >> -- >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > -- From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Thu May 6 13:21:22 2010 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 00:51:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Delhi university and its radioactive possessions In-Reply-To: <371726.28123.qm@web51401.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <208404.15905.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Yousuf   People on this forum are still not certain what slant to give to their illustrious comments:   - Anti-Hindu? Anti-Muslim?   - Anti-India? Pro-India?   - Anti-State? Pro-State?   - Anti-USA? Pro-USA?    - Anti-Terrorists? Pro-Terrorists?   Kshmendra --- On Thu, 5/6/10, Yousuf wrote: From: Yousuf Subject: [Reader-list] Delhi university and its radioactive possessions To: "sarai list" Date: Thursday, May 6, 2010, 9:17 AM I am amazed that this forum is silent so far about the callousness of DU's chemistry department in selling radioactive material in scrap which led to the death of one person and serious injury of several in Delhi. And how could the university officials remain silent for 20 days when people suffered and the police was going crazy trying find out where the material came from. I wonder what else is there in store for us. ==== All radioactive sources of varsity irradiator accounted for: AERB R. Ramachandran The Atomic Energy Regulatory Board (AERB) has identified and accounted for all the cobalt-60 radioactive sources originally present in the gamma cell irradiator of the Chemistry Department of Delhi University. Stating this in a pres release here on Wednesday, the AERB said that the sources would continue to remain in the safe custody of the Department of Atomic Energy (DAE). It would be recalled that the irradiator, supplied by the Atomic Energy of Canada Ltd. (AECL) in 1968, had been in disuse since 1985 and was auctioned away to scrap dealers on February 26. This had found its way to the metal scrap market of Mayapuri in West Delhi. Without realising that there was a radioactive source in the scrap, two Mayapuri shops where the scrap had finally landed dismantled the equipment and cut open the irradiator into several pieces. This resulted in the people directly involved in the operation and handling the pieces to high doses of radiation. This caused severe radiation poisoning of seven people engaged in the scrap metal business one of whom has since died. The other six continue to battle for life – one at Apollo Hospitals and the rest at the All India Institute of Medical Sciences (AIIMS), New Delhi. Following a complete survey of the market, officials of the AERB and the National Disaster Management Authority (NDMA) stated that they located 11 radioactive sources in all — eight from one shop, two from another and one from an individual who was in its possession. Given the badly mangled state of the irradiator and its pieces, it was not clear then whether the 11 sources were all separate sources or were pieces of a single source. These radioactive materials were moved from Mayapuri in mid-April to the Narora Atomic Power Station (NAPS) in U. P. Detailed inspections of the materials recovered were carried out by the AERB officials at NAPS on May 3 and 4 following which the statement was issued. The statement clarifies that all the pieces originated from this single Delhi University gamma irradiator's Co-60 source. This also makes it clear that reports appearing in the media about ‘missing radioactive pencils' and the ‘source trail leading to Rewari (in Haryana)' were incorrect. According to S. K. Malhotra of the DAE, the reconstruction was made possible by the details of the original device that was supplied to the university in 1968, which the AERB managed to obtain from the AECL. Apparently the AECL responded to the query with great efficiency and supplied the details of the sale 42 years ago within a couple of hours. Mr. Malhotra also confirmed the initial activity of the source was over 3,000 curies (Ci). After 42 years, or 8 half-life periods of Co-60, the activity would have dropped by a factor of 2 to the power of 8, or 256, only. (One curie stands for 37 billion radioactive decays/sec.) According to the details provided by the AECL, the source chamber had provision for 54 pencils of Co-60 of which only 16 were occupied at the time of supply based on the requirements specified by the user. Each cylindrical pencil is made of 7 ‘slugs' or pieces of Co-60, each measuring about 2.5 cm x 0.6 cm stacked together and all the pencils constitute a unit that can be placed around any material to be irradiated with gamma rays. The AERB claimed that they were able to account for all the 112 slugs of the 16-pencil Co-60 source unit. Probe demanded In a related development, the Delhi University teachers' Association (DUTA) has demanded an impartial enquiry by the President of India, who is the Visitor of the university, into the callous disposal of the Co-60 source to scrap dealers. In particular, the DUTA has called for a enquiry into the constitution by the vice-chancellor of the committee that authorised its disposal and into the inexplicable silence on the part of the university authorities for as long as 20 days when the Delhi police and the AERB were groping in darkness to hunt down the origin of the radioactive material. “In this context, the speedy work by the Delhi Police in tracking down the origin to the Chemistry Department of Delhi University needs to be commended, it said. http://beta.thehindu.com/news/national/article422833.ece       _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Thu May 6 13:39:01 2010 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 01:09:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] 140,000 troops in FATA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <243570.35520.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Shuddha   Since you have commented on Yasir's response to me, I presume the "People" includes me. Correct me if I misunderstood.   If I did not misunderstand and you were including me in the "People":   - Who are the "militarist elites" of India?   - What is the agenda of  the  "militarist elites" of India?    - On what basis did you say that I cannot separate myself "from the agendas of the  militarist elites" of India?   Shuddha, you might be in the habit of not being able to "separate" yourself from the "agendas" of others. I am not.   It might be so that you are projecting your own attitudes on to others.   I have always expressed my admiration for you, even if I have not agreed with every single one of your comments. But to profess that admiration unconditionally and let it include poorly thought out comments by you would be unfair to both you and me.   Kshmendra   --- On Wed, 5/5/10, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta Subject: Re: [Reader-list] 140,000 troops in FATA To: "yasir ~يا سر" Cc: "Sarai Reader-list" Date: Wednesday, May 5, 2010, 11:15 AM Dear Yasir, People who are unable to separate themselves from the agendas of the  militarist elites of their own states automatically assume that  everyone, everywhere in the world is exactly like them. Thanks for your valuable postings, best Shuddha On 05-May-10, at 3:34 AM, yasir ~يا سر wrote: > once again you have deliberately missed the point, as impossible as  > it is to > do both at the same time. My point was about the people not the  > foreign > policy, not the army, yet you choose to mix them up, because thats  > what you > are refusing top separate, and see the separate entinities of the  > people, > the army, the govts. we are not radically democratic, only mildly so > electing the same people from the same classes, when the army is not > actively interfering in the vote counts,or runninga martial regime.. i > suggest you reread what i wrote. i dont find it of use to go in the > directions you are suggesting, since you have missed the sole point  > of it. > your nationalism blinds you to your own hierarchical and class  > realities, > you cannot breathe without. in fact it shows your inability to  > speak about > it. enough said. > > Buck up. perfect perfect perfect. > > > On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 6:16 PM, Bipin Trivedi   > wrote: > >> Yes Kshemendra, you are perfectly right and good point of argument  >> raised. >> Keep it up. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net [mailto:reader-list- >> bounces at sarai.net] >> On Behalf Of Kshmendra Kaul >> Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 6:09 PM >> To: Sarai Reader-list; yasir ~يا سر >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] 140,000 troops in FATA >> >> Dear Yasir >> >> From 'Blame-USA' you move to "Blame-India". "Land of the Pure",  >> Pakistan's >> favorite pastime; blame everyone else but itself. >> >> Your viewpoint of 'history' between India and Pakistan starts from  >> 1971. >> >> Remember 1947-48 when Maharaja of Kashmir had to sign the  >> "Instrument of >> Accession" because Pakistan broke the "Standstill Agreement" which  >> (unlike >> India) it had signed on? In a manner of speaking, India did not  >> 'eat up' >> Kashmir but Pakistan offered it to India. >> >> Remember 1965 and Pakistan's 'Operation Gibraltar'? (Read Ikram  >> Sehgal's >> http://www.defencejournal.com/jul99/gibraltor-2.htm) >> >> Yet India was kind to Pakistan in 1971 and returned the 90,000  >> POWs without >> getting anything in return. Rather the idiocy of Indira Gandhi in  >> trusting >> whatever Bhutto had promised her. >> >> Yet, the never to be trusted Pakistan went in for the sneaky Kargil >> operation. >> >> Pakistan's build-up of Military capabilities (and connected  >> Budgets) has as >> much and more to do with it's Islamic ambitions ('thekedaar' of  >> Islam) as it >> has to do with threat perceptions from India that it itself has  >> provoked. >> >> By your logic, with India's inimical relations with China, India  >> should be >> trying to match the Defence Budget of China and more since there  >> are two >> 'enemies' to contend with, China and Pakistan. >> >> India's defence expenditure happens to be a lower percentage of  >> it's GDP >> when compared to Pakistan. From 2.5% of GDP in 06-07, it has come  >> dowm to >> 2.30% in 09-10 and 2.12% in 10-11. >> >> And yes, please make up your mind. Did India 'eat up'  >> Hyderabad&Junagad or >> Kashmir? Any logic justifying claim of 'eat up' of one would  >> contradict >> itself when applied to the other. >> >> Kshmendra >> >> --- On Mon, 5/3/10, yasir ~يا سر wrote: >> >> >> From: yasir ~يا سر >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] 140,000 troops in FATA >> To: "Sarai Reader-list" >> Date: Monday, May 3, 2010, 8:21 PM >> >> >> no sorry you totally got that from an enemy perspective. please  >> get this >> right. >> >> if you ask us, we will tell you the following: >> the people of pakistan are the real victim, when the govt of  >> pakistan, the >> pakistan army, sold itself to the united states, becoming a  >> mercenary state >> for them. the relation is completely one-sided. what development  >> in real >> terms have we seen, take any indicator. why are we worse off with  >> many >> systems existing and functioning back in the postpartition days  >> woefully >> nonexistent or malfunctional, let alone any new systems. the  >> answer is >> quite >> severe. we have a military budget which has to deal with india  >> which is >> many >> itimes its size and (had been) eadger to destabilize it after  >> breaking it >> up >> into 2 in 1971, and which had earlier eaten up hyderabad and  >> kashmir. so we >> are now doomed to military spending which comes anyway from the  >> US, leaving >> little in the way of major public projects which could have benefited >> people >> at large. Government spending was eaten by the military. if you  >> imagine >> what >> kind of a present society we could have been if we had not stuck  >> to this >> stupid military buildup (you can eveluate your own side). so the  >> war on >> terror is just another day, another cloud. but it follows the  >> covert US >> action in Afghanistan against the Soviets using Afghanis and  >> Pakistanis >> then >> disappearing for a decade and showing up again this time because the >> militancy the americans had started, charlie wilson's war starring  >> tom >> cruise, could not be put out and took the wtc with it. sorry there  >> is no >> conspiracy here. we are getting the blame 'for not doing enough'  >> and then >> we >> have to deal with your pearls of wisdom strewn from across the  >> border. >> >> so dear KK, we are not asking for blood money. we are saying:  having >> destroyed the region, you better build it up now, to what it  >> should be >> like. >> i think this is not only possible, but also a moral responsility  >> of the US >> in no uncertain terms. and we dont trust them either because of this >> history. >> >> best >> >> y >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 5:50 PM, Kshmendra Kaul  >> >> wrote: >> >>> USA also pays "Blood Money" to Pakistan which Pakistan accepts very >>> gratefully. >>> >>> In fact there is a constant clamour by many in Pakistan : "You  >>> are not >>> paying us enough!!!! We want more!!!! We want more!!!!" >>> >>> --- On *Mon, 5/3/10, yasir ~يا سر *  >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> From: yasir ~يا سر >>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] 140,000 troops in FATA >>> To: "Sarai Reader-list" >>> Date: Monday, May 3, 2010, 1:53 PM >>> >>> one needs to add much salt here: >>> >>> >>>    - reporters are not allowed, you only get the official army  >>> version >>>    - civilian casualties are 'normal', very high and not reported, >>> including >>>    extra judicial killings and right violations >>>    - the number of internally displaced people is huge,  >>> frequently not >>> taken >>>    care of by anyone let alone by govt >>>    - the motivation in no small measure comes from the US  >>> pressuring the >> PK >>>    army to show that action is being taken, which frequently  >>> leads to >>> unstable >>>    conditions, rather than working with local actors with a long  >>> term >> view, >>>    while dealing with a guerrilla like militancy. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 11:30 AM, S. Jabbar > http://us.mc572.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=sonia.jabbar at gmail.com>> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> FRONT-PAGE >>>> ŒPakistan has moved 100,000 troops from eastern border¹ >>>> >>>> By Our Correspondent >>>> >>>> Friday, 30 Apr, 2010 | 01:38 AM PST | >>>> >>>> >>>> WASHINGTON: Pakistan has deployed 140,000 troops in Fata, moving at >> least >>>> 100,000 soldiers from the Indian border to back up its  >>>> Œunprecedented¹ >>>> crackdown on militants along the Afghan border, says a Pentagon  >>>> report. >>>> >>>> In its mandatory report to the US Congress on the situation in the >>>> Pakistan-Afghan region, the Pentagon notes that the deployment  >>>> is the >>>> biggest in the country¹s history on the western border. >>>> >>>> ³This unprecedented deployment and thinning of the lines against  >>>> India >>>> indicates that Islamabad has acknowledged its domestic insurgent >> threat.² >>>> >>>> The Pentagon also acknowledges that Pakistani military  >>>> operations in >> the >>>> tribal regions have had an impact across the border, placing a  >>>> ³high >>> degree >>>> of pressure on enemy forces and reduced insurgent safe haven² in >> eastern >>>> Afghanistan. >>>> >>>> The Pentagon informs Congress that recent arrests by Pakistan of  >>>> Afghan >>>> Taliban leaders, including the group¹s No. 2, Mullah Abdul Ghani >> Baradar, >>>> have ³increased insurgent leaders¹ concern over the security of  >>>> their >>> safe >>>> havens² and created ³financial and logistical² problems for  >>>> them. >>>> >>>> This assessment contrasts sharply with the Afghan claim ‹  >>>> backed by >> India >>> ‹ >>>> that the arrests have weakened Kabul¹s efforts to seek a  >>>> negotiated >>>> settlement with the Taliban leadership. >>>> >>>> The report quotes a senior US defence official as saying that the >> arrests >>>> in >>>> Pakistan produced ³a lot of concerned chatter² among Taliban >> sympathisers >>>> in >>>> Afghanistan, but there¹s no indication of ³a leadership crisis  >>>> in the >>>> Taliban². >>>> >>>> The Pentagon notes that so far the crackdown in Pakistan is focused >>> almost >>>> exclusively on internal threats and that¹s why it¹s not having  >>>> any >>>> ³significant impact on the Afghan insurgency in the short term². >>>> >>>> But the crackdown ³offers opportunities in coming months to have a >>> greater >>>> impact on the conflict in Afghanistan depending on how PAKMIL >> (Pakistani >>>> military) operations evolve,² the report adds. >>>> >>>> ³Pakistan has suffered attacks from terrorists in response to its >>>> successful >>>> operations. These attacks include mass casualty events in Mingora, >> South >>>> Waziristan agency close to clearing operations as well as in  >>>> Lahore, >> far >>>> away from the fighting. ³While these attacks do not appear to have >> shaken >>>> Pakistan¹s commitment, they do demonstrate, for the time being, >> insurgent >>>> ability to continue attacks despite successful Pakistani  >>>> operations,² >> the >>>> report warns. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/the- >> newspaper/ >>>> >>>> >>> >> front-page/pakistan-has-moved-100,000-troops-from-indian-border- >> pentagon-040< >>> >> http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/the- >> newspaper/%0Afront-page/pakistan-has-moved-100,000-troops-from- >> indian-border-pentagon-040 >>>> >>> >>>> >>>> Copyright © 2010 - Dawn Media Group >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net< >> http://us.mc572.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=reader-list- >> request at sarai.net >>> with >>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net< >> http://us.mc572.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=reader-list- >> request at sarai.net>with >> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >>> >>> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with  > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Thu May 6 14:11:32 2010 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 01:41:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Delhi university and its radioactive possessions In-Reply-To: <371726.28123.qm@web51401.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <911513.65912.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Yousuf   Apologies for the earlier response (which was not directed at you). I was bristling because of two recent nonsensical comments addressed to/towards me.   It is not enough to comment upon the callousness of DU's Chemistry Department.   As you have pointed, a life has been lost and many are suffering serious reactions because of the exposure to the Cobalt 60. It is shocking, it is disgusting that there does not seem to be any attempt this far in making people in DU accountable for this.   It also brings up the question of what systems are in place in Institutions (Research and Medical) to protect the usage and disposal of radioactive material. There would be hundreds of such institutions. (Top of the head estimate).   The larger issue is of India's seriousness and ability to ensure that the protections needed are systemised through monitored SOPs.   One also wonders how many such deaths might have taken place because of similar exposure to radioactive material, the cause for which simply escaped being identified because those who died were impoverished and their deaths would not have been properly investigated.   Kshmendra  --- On Thu, 5/6/10, Yousuf wrote: From: Yousuf Subject: [Reader-list] Delhi university and its radioactive possessions To: "sarai list" Date: Thursday, May 6, 2010, 9:17 AM I am amazed that this forum is silent so far about the callousness of DU's chemistry department in selling radioactive material in scrap which led to the death of one person and serious injury of several in Delhi. And how could the university officials remain silent for 20 days when people suffered and the police was going crazy trying find out where the material came from. I wonder what else is there in store for us. ==== All radioactive sources of varsity irradiator accounted for: AERB R. Ramachandran The Atomic Energy Regulatory Board (AERB) has identified and accounted for all the cobalt-60 radioactive sources originally present in the gamma cell irradiator of the Chemistry Department of Delhi University. Stating this in a pres release here on Wednesday, the AERB said that the sources would continue to remain in the safe custody of the Department of Atomic Energy (DAE). It would be recalled that the irradiator, supplied by the Atomic Energy of Canada Ltd. (AECL) in 1968, had been in disuse since 1985 and was auctioned away to scrap dealers on February 26. This had found its way to the metal scrap market of Mayapuri in West Delhi. Without realising that there was a radioactive source in the scrap, two Mayapuri shops where the scrap had finally landed dismantled the equipment and cut open the irradiator into several pieces. This resulted in the people directly involved in the operation and handling the pieces to high doses of radiation. This caused severe radiation poisoning of seven people engaged in the scrap metal business one of whom has since died. The other six continue to battle for life – one at Apollo Hospitals and the rest at the All India Institute of Medical Sciences (AIIMS), New Delhi. Following a complete survey of the market, officials of the AERB and the National Disaster Management Authority (NDMA) stated that they located 11 radioactive sources in all — eight from one shop, two from another and one from an individual who was in its possession. Given the badly mangled state of the irradiator and its pieces, it was not clear then whether the 11 sources were all separate sources or were pieces of a single source. These radioactive materials were moved from Mayapuri in mid-April to the Narora Atomic Power Station (NAPS) in U. P. Detailed inspections of the materials recovered were carried out by the AERB officials at NAPS on May 3 and 4 following which the statement was issued. The statement clarifies that all the pieces originated from this single Delhi University gamma irradiator's Co-60 source. This also makes it clear that reports appearing in the media about ‘missing radioactive pencils' and the ‘source trail leading to Rewari (in Haryana)' were incorrect. According to S. K. Malhotra of the DAE, the reconstruction was made possible by the details of the original device that was supplied to the university in 1968, which the AERB managed to obtain from the AECL. Apparently the AECL responded to the query with great efficiency and supplied the details of the sale 42 years ago within a couple of hours. Mr. Malhotra also confirmed the initial activity of the source was over 3,000 curies (Ci). After 42 years, or 8 half-life periods of Co-60, the activity would have dropped by a factor of 2 to the power of 8, or 256, only. (One curie stands for 37 billion radioactive decays/sec.) According to the details provided by the AECL, the source chamber had provision for 54 pencils of Co-60 of which only 16 were occupied at the time of supply based on the requirements specified by the user. Each cylindrical pencil is made of 7 ‘slugs' or pieces of Co-60, each measuring about 2.5 cm x 0.6 cm stacked together and all the pencils constitute a unit that can be placed around any material to be irradiated with gamma rays. The AERB claimed that they were able to account for all the 112 slugs of the 16-pencil Co-60 source unit. Probe demanded In a related development, the Delhi University teachers' Association (DUTA) has demanded an impartial enquiry by the President of India, who is the Visitor of the university, into the callous disposal of the Co-60 source to scrap dealers. In particular, the DUTA has called for a enquiry into the constitution by the vice-chancellor of the committee that authorised its disposal and into the inexplicable silence on the part of the university authorities for as long as 20 days when the Delhi police and the AERB were groping in darkness to hunt down the origin of the radioactive material. “In this context, the speedy work by the Delhi Police in tracking down the origin to the Chemistry Department of Delhi University needs to be commended, it said. http://beta.thehindu.com/news/national/article422833.ece       _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Thu May 6 14:53:33 2010 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 02:23:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] The Indian Memory Project Message-ID: <869437.50710.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> For those who might be interested in the "The Indian Memory Project", it can be found on Facebook at http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=20939823252   Kshmendra     "The Indian Memory Project"   (Anusha S Yadav, documentary photographer and lately enthusiastic photo archivist, on her experiment to trace the history of India.)   By Anusha S Yadav Published: 5:51PM BST 29 Apr 2010   Photographs are my favourite place in a museum or in someone's house. I was brought up in Jaipur, royal capital to the ancient Kings. Our houses were filled with images of their royal families, alongside those of our own. For every picture there was a story. I wound find myself time travelling; imagining myself in their place. I found it a tickle to think that what seemed old to me was contemporary to the people in the photographs.   Many years later, the photographs I and my friends posted on Facebook gave me the beginnings of an idea for a book on Indian weddings, where I would research the old and also photograph the new. We have innumerable diverse cultures within India - invasions and settlements from almost every possible external civilsations made it so - and I knew that many of them would have photograph albums they could post on my site. But then an interesting thing happened. People began posting all kinds of old photographs - not just weddings - and every one of them with a riveting anecdote about their lives; their families; their griefs; their accomplishments. I became lost in all of them.   Many of the simple but worthwhile accomplishments of people and our ancestors go unnoticed beyond the living-room room/cocktail conversations between families. But these people did what they knew best; worked; married; studied; earned; made sure their children were healthy; travelled and in their own way influenced our future.   It was interesting to note how photography too had changed. Introduced by the British, it was once only afforded and therefore patronised by the Kings and Queens of the Indian states. Gradually it trickled down into general society, for special occasions, Festivals, weddings, deaths and especially for match-making.   Whilst the British were comprehensive in their documenting of the days of the Raj, most of their proof lies in National Archives or Private Collections, not open to public. I want this project to be shared by one and all. For me it is an experiment with no exact presumption of what I or anyone else may find.   This project will most definitely become a life-long one. I intend to collect as many pictures as I can, cross reference them all, pester people for more information about them. I hope in time it will emerge as a visual and oral history of India by its own people.   Contribute or donate via The Indian Memory Project.   http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/photography/7652620/The-Indian-Memory-Project.html   From jeebesh at sarai.net Thu May 6 15:30:29 2010 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 15:30:29 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Does anybody knows about it? Message-ID: <48B2C19A-AFC3-4AB2-860F-7EF75BA88CBE@sarai.net> From: Amar Singh Azad Date: Wed, 05 May 2010 22:45:26 +0530 (IST) To: Punjab Eco-crisis; Environment Health Forum; Arshdeep; Dr. Arun Mitra; Neelam Avtar Singh; Avtar Singh Gondara; anupam Singh Deep; Amandeep Azad; Anil Batta; Professor Tiwana; ; ; Dr. Tejbir Singh; ramdev; darshanpal; Dr. Sehgal; pritpal dr; jagmohan uppal Subject: YouTube censors video interview with Jeffrey Smith about GMOs YouTube censors video interview with Jeffrey Smith about GMOs (NaturalNews) Within hours after posting our video interview with Jeffrey Smith, creator ofSeeds of Deception and author of Genetic Roulette, YouTube pulled the video. Attempts to play the video are now met with the following message: "This video has been removed due to terms of use violation." That is, of course, an outright lie. This video features myself (the Health Ranger) talking with Jeffrey Smith about the health dangers of genetically modified organisms (GMOs) at the recent Health Freedom Expo. NaturalNews staff filmed the segment, and we used intro music legally licensed from a music production company. There was no violation of the YouTube terms of agreement. There was, however, some straightforward discussion about the dangers of genetically modified foods. Jeffrey Smith (www.SeedsOfDeception.com) explained in the video how GM foods have been proven in animal studies to damage internal organs, cause infertility problems and increase rates of death among those who consume such foods. This was all just too much for YouTube to handle, apparently. The truth isn't welcome on YouTube. While the network can host any number of idiotic videos in the form of street fights, traffic accidents, personal video blogs and profanity-filled flame wars, it has no ability to stomach the simple truth that GMOs are dangerous for your health. The YouTube agenda exposed Let there be no question about the YouTube agenda. Owned by Google, this video network is playing right into the hands of the big corporate agenda in America -- an agenda that demands consumers be kept in the dark about the dangers of GMOs. U.S. government representatives, in fact, are right now attempting to force a new global rule at the CODEX meetings taking place this very week. They're trying to outlaw all "no GMOs" labeling and food claims, thereby making it illegal for a food company to tell consumers that its products are non-GMO. (http://www.naturalnews.com/028716_G...) NaturalNews to launch its own UNCENSORED video network This YouTube censorship is one of the main reasons why we at NaturalNews have decided to launch our own uncensored video network. The network is under development and will be launched this June. To learn more about the upcoming NaturalNews video network, read this story: http://www.naturalnews.com/028717_v... The video interview with Jeffrey Smith will be re-launched on our own video network where the whole world will soon be able to hear what Jeffrey Smith had to say about GMOs that YouTube desperately wants to silence. It's all coming soon here on NaturalNews.com. From aliens at dataone.in Thu May 6 15:33:11 2010 From: aliens at dataone.in (Bipin Trivedi) Date: Thu, 06 May 2010 15:33:11 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT Message-ID: <000001caed03$56a020e0$03e062a0$@in> AS EXPECTED, KASAV RIGHTLY GOT DEATH SENTENCE. Though terrorist's Kasav case was crystal clear, but still we have gone for about 17 months fair trial and proved that how transparent our judicial system is unlike Pakistan. But, after this trial and judgment, he should not allow to appeal in the higher court and should be hanged in public immediately without further judicial procedure. if Indira Gandhi (ex PM) deny to obey court verdict and neglect law and Shah Banu case was revert out of law by parliament than why cannot this? India should show the world that country cannot compromise in integrity and take hard action if required like open public death sentence. Thanks Bipin From gurgaon_workers_news at yahoo.co.uk Thu May 6 15:39:19 2010 From: gurgaon_workers_news at yahoo.co.uk (gurgaon workers news) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 10:09:19 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] Developing Unrest: New Struggles in Miserable Boom-Town Gurgaon Message-ID: <933343.96675.qm@web27802.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Developing Unrest: New Struggles in Miserable Boom-Town Gurgaon (Following article tries to summarise the main tendencies of class relations in Gurgaon and based on that to come to practical suggestions for local 'communist activities'.) Gurgaon, a satellite town in the south of Delhi became the symbol of 'Shining India'. Many people are dazzled by the glass-fronts of shopping-malls and corporate towers and fail to see the development of a massive industrial working-class behind the facade of 'post-fordist' display of consumerism. Together with industrial centres like the Pearl River Delta in China or the Maquiladoras in Northern Mexico the Delhi industrial belt has become a focal point of global working class formation. A Global Working Class in Local Formation In the industrial areas of Gurgaon a very particular class composition (1) emerged. Hundred of thousands migrant garment workers work next to the assembly lines of India's biggest automobile hub and next to hundred thousand young workers sweating under the head-sets of Gurgaon's call centres. We are forced to re-think our traditional understandings of what 'workers' are, how they struggle and how this struggle can become a process of self-empowerment towards self- emancipation. The specific structure of industry and the composition of the work- force first of all pushes us beyond the regional and national frame- work._On the most obvious level this happens through the global market. In spring 2008 the Rupee reached its peak to the US-Dollar, causing bad export conditions. The garment industry in Gurgaon dismissed thousands of workers and shifted orders to 'low currency' countries like Vietnam and Bangladesh. In autumn 2008 the Rupee plummeted, but together with it the US and European market crashed and sent shock-waves into the industrial areas of Gurgaon: credit crunch for the real estate, garment orders came down, US-banking services slumped. At one point in time, workers in one space - who might otherwise have thought that they have little in common but chai stalls - faced a common situation: cut in bonuses or piece-rates, abolishment of free company meals or transport, threat of job cuts. The potential for a socially explosive tea-party of english-speaking call centre night-shift youth, migrant garment and construction workers and young skilled workers in the car part plants entered the Industrial Model Towns - a mass base of actual 'internal threat'.(2) There is a second level on which the 'collective work-force' has to be grasped beyond the boundaries of factory walls or company units. This level is shaped by local, regional and global division of labour. Maruti Suzuki connects their assembly lines and welding-robots via transport chains with production units of hundreds of outsourced suppliers, reaching into the work-shop slum-villages of Faridabad or the green-field industrial areas along the National Highway. Assembly plants around the globe depend on parts manufactured in Gurgaon by companies like Rico or Delphi. IT and BPO offices cooperate closely with branches oversea, while production in the huge garment factories is supplied via supervisor middlemen with piece-work from working (wo)men stitching 'at home'. On a third level the character of the work-force itself can not be grasped on a local level: the majority of workers are migrant workers, going back and forth between urban industrial life and village. Wages are too low to reproduce a nuclear family in Gurgaon, most workers leave their family in the villages. Similarly it is near too impossible to survive a longer period of unemployment - or for that matter, a longer period of strike - in Gurgaon. Though disintegrating, the village still functions as the main unemployment insurrance. The changes in the villages, such as introduction of the National Rural Employment Guarantee Scheme or the general development of the agricultural market, reverberates in the working conditions in Gurgaon and echoes back into the rural. Workers arrive in Gurgaon with hopes, which are in most cases disillusioned. They survive 16-hours shifts by keeping both village misery and glorification in mind. Their urge 'not having to be a worker anymore' expresses itself individually in plans to open a shop back home. Reality forces us to find a collective and social expression of this urge to abolish our existence 'as workers'. Main element of this reality ' as worker' has been the casualisation of work-force. In winter 2000/2001 Maruti Suzuki used a labour dispute of minor importance to lock-out the permanent work-force and to replace them through compulsory 'Voluntary Retirement Schemes' with temporary workers. This has been repeated in other companies to a point where 70 to 80 per cent of the average factory work-force is nowadays hired through contractors - due to their mobility they have less interest in struggles for long running wage agreements and company pension schemes. They have more immediate desires and anger. The remaining casual and permanent workers are often young workers hired in various ITI-campuses all over India, employed with much less job security and lower wages than the old type of permanent work- force. In the garment factories the skilled tailors on piece-rate producing 'full-piece' garments are increasingly put under pressure by chain-systems employing 20 less 'skilled' workers to produce the same garment in division of labour and by introduction of CNC-cutting and embroidery machines. In Kapashera - a workers' dormitory 'village' where about 200,000 textile workers and families live close to the main industrial area - dozens of 'CNC-courses' and six week basic tailoring courses are offered by small-scale informal schools. Given this complex picture the majority of workers do not face a single 'company boss' in a formal way, they face many bosses. Due to the real estate boom which catapulted local farmers out of their fields into land-lordism and business a specific coalition of local political class, land-lords, labour contractors, police and company- hired local goons became a repressive front ready to quell expressions of workers' unrest. This local front of ruling class is complemented by a faceless front of multi-national investment and central government policies. Old Type of Struggles: Locked-Out in Dead-Ends Under these general conditions struggles which remain within the boundaries of classical type of company or trade union struggle normally end in defeats and/or institutionalisation. There have been many 'union' struggles in Gurgaon in the last years and they seem to follow certain patterns (3): There is discontent amongst both permanent workers and workers hired through contractors. In most cases some 'under-the-surface'-struggles pre-date the 'official conflict, e.g. at Honda HMSI 'spontaneous' canteen occupations happened before the 'official' struggle for union recognition. In this phase certain sections of workers get in touch with union officials hoping that registration of a union will strengthen their position. Representatives emerge, member-lists are required for the application. The company tries to put pressure on the emerging 'leadership', in many cases provokes a situation where suspension of 'outstanding' workers can be declared. In many cases companies ask the remaining work-force to sign individual letters of 'good conduct', trying to single out supporters. Due to the unions self-interest they tell workers not to sign: a struggle in classical terms is easier to organise once workers are victimised, although their actual power might be greater once back inside the factory. An unofficial lock-out situation emerges, often workers hired through contractors - who expect less gains from a company union - either enter the factory or additional workers are hired to keep up production. Often these new workers are hired from the local population of surrounding villages - another division between them and the mainly migrant original work- force. Companies are normally prepared for the lock-out and subsequent problems in production, either by piling-up extra-stock or by getting parts from other suppliers. 'Unofficial unrest' turns into classical forms of struggle, often managed by the main union advisors: protests in front of the factory gate, demonstrations, meetings with political leaders - the martyrdom of workers becomes a stage for leaders. In most cases the conflict becomes a single company issue without attempts to connect it to the wider discontent. State and company are well capable to deal with these ritualistic forms of struggle, either through repression or through entangling it in a long legal dispute. The result of these disputes normally exclude the workers hired through contractors who had been part in the initial struggle and often the legal cases for re-instatement of victimised workers run for years. After recognition of a company union there tends to be silence afterwards (4). Even once in the trap of a lock-out workers can do more than just wait for the next symbolic show of solidarity. In the case of the current lock-out at Maruti fuel-pump supplier Denso in Manesar 36 union members have been suspended on 17th of February 2010 and about 500 workers refused to sign papers of 'good conduct'. Since mid-February they have been sitting outside the factory while newly hired workers are kept inside for 24 hours. Already before the lock-out Denso had ordered additional parts from its Thailand plant - an act of preparation. In nearby Faridabad workers of another Maruti supplier, AC manufacturer Sanden Vikas, were 'locked-out' at the same time. The union did not facilitate direct links between these two work-forces. The suggestion came up to write a common letter to Maruti Suzuki management - a rather symbolic sign of workers' coordination which could have had a small impact nevertheless. Another idea came up to go in small number of workers to stand with placards in front of Maruti or other local factories. Denso runs factories around the globe, some effort to let workers and management in these factories know about the situation in Manesar could have been made (5). Small steps which could help to spread the word and may be create direct links between workers of the supply-chain. This did not happen, instead we saw one or two union demonstrations of the classical type and bored young workers sitting and playing cards. According to information of a Denso worker, on 22nd of March 2010 the company took back 23 out of 36 suspended union reps and sent all Denso workers on one week training in a local 'World Spiritual University' ashram, to find a 'peaceful mind'. When they returned to the factory most of the workers were shifted to new jobs in different departments, at new machines, with new neighbouring work- mates. A New Generation of Workers' Struggles We have to discuss about the short-comings of traditional forms of struggle together with workers - and we can discuss new forms on the background of actual experiences of wildcat strikes and factory occupations which happened in Gurgaon during the last years. These struggles have remained largely unknown to a 'wider public'. Unfortunately the left activists normally only get to know or interested in workers' struggles once they have reached the 'official' status, which generally means: when they are repressed. The lathi- charge at Honda in 2005 mobilised the left, so did the murder of a worker at Rico - the main left position concerning these incidents was a 'civil rights' position, not an attempt to analyse the basis for workers' power and self-activity. The struggles of a new generation already give some answers and ask many questions for the future, e.g. how struggles can be extended from the factory base avoiding 'unnecessary' direct confrontation with the state forces and pitfalls of formal representation. In April 2006 more than 4,500 temp workers occupied the Hero Honda Gurgaon plant for several days demanding higher wages and better conditions. The company cut water and electricity, but told the police not to enter the factory. No support from outside the plant. The workers sent a small delegation for negotiations, which was bought off: the delegates returned promising fulfillment of all major demands after restart of production, they then disappeared. Only some demands were actually met by the management. When the factory occupation ended workers at Hero Honda supplier Shivam Autotech occupied their nearby plant raising similar demands. Workers at KDR press-shop in Faridabad, who supply Shivam Autotech with metal parts, worked reduced hours during these days._In September 2006, after temp workers at Honda HMSI Manesar were not included in a union deal they occupied the canteen of the plant supported from the outside by the next arriving shift. The company reacted by cutting water supply. The company and union asked them to go back to work. In January 2007 the 2,500 temp workers at car parts manufacturer Delphi in Gurgaon went on wildcat strike blockading the main gate. The company threatened to shut-down and relocate the factory and asked the union of the 250 permanent workers to get the temps back to work - after two days the blockade was lifted. In August 2007 the temps at Delphi struck again for few hours without prior notice, demanding the payment of the increased minimum wage and succeeded. Many of the workers lived together in back-yards of nearby villages, sharing food, mobile phones and information about jobs._In August 2007, after the Haryana government had increased the minimum wage, over a dozen companies in Faridabad and Gurgaon faced spontaneous short strikes by mainly casual workers, demanding the payment of the new wage. In most cases these actions were successful (6). In May 2008 after not having been accepted as members by the permanent workers' union the temp and casual workers at Hero Honda in Dharuhera went on wildcat strike and occupied the plant for two days. Management and permanent workers' union both promised betterments of the workers' situation. The temp and casual workers then tried to register their own union - a process which ended in suspension of leaders and a mass lock-out in October 2008 (7). It would be schematic to label these struggles 'spontaneous'. We need spaces to meet in the industrial areas for analysing the social production process and the already existing day-to-day experiences of organisation and subversion within: in factories, along supply chains, in the back-yard living quarters, in the common remote villages (8). If there will be a communist party it will be the celebrations of the collective worker, discovering themselves by turning their social cooperation against its proclaimed precondition: capital. Part of this proletarian self-reflection must be the development of a structure of mutual aid, practical support and coordination. Comrades of Faridabad Majdoor Talmel are about to open some physical spaces for workers' meetings in Faridabad, Okhla, Gurgaon and Manesar. Please get in touch! www.gurgaonworkersnews.wordpress.com www.faridabadmajdoorsamachar.blogspot.com (1) For debates about the concept of class composition see:_http://libcom.org/history/porto-marghera-%E2%80%93-last-firebrands (2) We wrote an article about the wider class situation in India after the crisis blow of autumn 2008:_http://www.wildcat-www.de/en/wildcat/83/w83_india_en.htm (3) The list of examples is way too long. Just to mention a few in Gurgaon: Maruti lock-out in 2000, Honda HMSI in 2005, Amtek in 2006, Automax in 2008, Mushashi and Rico in 2009, Denso and Sanden Vikas in 2010. (4) After recognition of the union at Honda HMSI the number of workers hired through contractors and general productivity even increased. (5) It is difficult to rely on the classical union structure for these kind of international links. When the dispute at Rico stopped GM and Ford assembly lines in the US and Canada due to missing parts the comment of a United Automobile Workers official in Michigan was: "We are experiencing the effects of outsourced suppliers, and we hope they would be able to resume production as quickly as possible so we can in turn resume production" Interestingly enough this comment was made after the UAW had signed an agreement to lower wages to 'save jobs', which was disputed by many workers on the shop-floor. While Denso workers in Manesar were locked-out, Denso workers in Tychy, Poland, organised protests for wage hikes matching the wages increases for FIAT workers. (6) Today the situation seems even more explosive, given that the April 2010 'minimum wage hike' of 30 per cent for Delhi workers does not compensate for the enormous inflation of food and transport prices. (7) For video-interview with these Hero Honda workers see:_http://visions-of-labour.org/clip.php?clipId=2458 (8) For concept of 'workers' self-inquiry' see:_http://libcom.org/library/renascence-operaismo-wildcat News from the Special Exploitation Zone - www.gurgaonworkersnews.wordpress.com From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Thu May 6 16:23:46 2010 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 03:53:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] "Fear grips Pakistani-Americans" Message-ID: <49877.20095.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Unlike some on this List, it is good to see that at least some Pakistanis are perceptive enough to identify and honest enough to admit to one of the critical aspects that has globally made Pakistan and it's people the propagators of terrorism; intolerance towards others; and consequently the object of suspicions.   The article from DAWN (Pakistan) says at one place:   quote..... Mr Siddiqui, another Pakistani-American who only gave his last name, said that Pakistan needed to “deal with the root cause” of terrorism. He suggested massive reform of the education system, which should include “revision of textbooks that preach hate against other religions, closure of all those madressahs that indulge in hate-mongering and more money for the right type of education”. ...... unquote   Kshmendra       "Fear grips Pakistani-Americans"   By Anwar Iqbal Wednesday, 05 May, 2010   WASHINGTON: A Pakistani-American girl, only 12, refused to go to school on Tuesday, saying she fears other students will ask her questions about the suspect held in New York for a failed attempt to bomb Times Square. Another girl, 11, went to school when her mother persuaded her to but the mother had to go back to school during the lunch break to counsel her. A 53-year old man throttled his laughter at a dinner in a Virginia restaurant as a US television channel identified the suspect as a Pakistani-American. “That’s it. We are cooked,” he remarked. “Sad, very sad,” said Maleeha Lodhi, a former Pakistani ambassador to the US and Britain who is now working on a book in Washington. “It will hurt all Pakistanis, particularly those living in the United States.” The Pakistani American Public Affairs Committee condemned the Times Square attempted bomb plot and appreciated the efforts of the US enforcement agencies for saving hundreds of lives. “PAKPAC is shocked and saddened to learn that the prime suspect is of Pakistani heritage,” said a statement issued in Washington. “This individual or any accomplice should be tried and punished under American judicial system. Whether this is an act of a lone individual or a group, it harms everyone and benefits no one.” As a community, Pakistani-Americans have “zero tolerance for such acts as they damage and disrupt the way of life of all Americans”. PAKPAC also welcomed the full cooperation offered by the Pakistani government. America’s largest Muslim civil liberties and advocacy organisation, CAIR held a special news conference in Washington to condemn the bombing attempt. CAIR leaders assured other Americans that Muslims living in America were as “peace loving as any other group” and stood ready to assist the administration’s efforts to root out terrorism. These immediate reactions in and around the US capital reflect the fears and trepidations of the Pakistani and Muslim communities in North America as they brace themselves for possible repercussions of the involvement of yet another Pakistani in an alleged terror plot. Raza Jafri recalled walking near the White House a day after 9/11 when two men stopped him and his wife and shouted: “Terrorists, terrorists. Arrest them.” The first thing he did was to ask his wife not to wear Pakistani dress in public until it was safe to do so. “It can get worse now,” he said. At a religious gathering in Springfield Virginia, Imam Wali prayed that “all those who are giving a bad name to Islam and Pakistan may be shown the right path.” Muhammad Younas Ansari of Lahore asked his Pakistani-American friends, “why are you so unhappy here? I have never heard of Indian or Bangladeshi Muslims being involved in such activities, why?” One of his friends thought that some Pakistanis living in America suffered from a major cultural shock. “No matter how unhappy a Pakistani says he is in America, he does not want to go back,” said the friend. “The Pakistanis enjoy the benefits of living in America. Love earning dollars. Love the prosperity that the dollar brings. They love showing off their dollars when they go to Pakistan. Yet, they never tire of criticising America. They think Pakistan is a paradise but all are afraid of returning home.” Hamza Muhammad of Falls Church, Virginia, noted that the entire Pakistani society shared the blame for allowing religious extremists and fanatics to function. “They never tire of condemning the extremists but also never take any practical step to purge them,” he observed. “How should we, living in America contribute to the fight against terrorism?” asked Tahira Mussarat Hussain, a Maryland resident. “We are against fanaticism but our voices are not heard. We want the whole world to know that we oppose all messages of hate.” Mr Siddiqui, another Pakistani-American who only gave his last name, said that Pakistan needed to “deal with the root cause” of terrorism. He suggested massive reform of the education system, which should include “revision of textbooks that preach hate against other religions, closure of all those madressahs that indulge in hate-mongering and more money for the right type of education”.   http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/international/fear-grips-pakistaniamericans-550   From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Thu May 6 16:39:54 2010 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 04:09:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] " Pakistan is 'epicenter of Islamic terrorism' " Message-ID: <982630.78730.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> " Pakistan is 'epicenter of Islamic terrorism' "   May 5, 2010   (Editor's note: Fareed Zakaria is an author and foreign affairs analyst who hosts "Fareed Zakaria GPS" on CNN U.S. on Sundays at 10 a.m. and 1 p.m. ET and CNN International at 2 and 10 p.m. Central European Time / 5 p.m. Abu Dhabi / 9 p.m. Hong Kong.)   New York (CNN) -- The suspect in the Times Square bombing attempt was caught as he was seeking to flee to Pakistan, a nation that analyst Fareed Zakaria calls the "epicenter of Islamic terrorism."   "It's worth noting that even the terrorism that's often attributed to the war in Afghanistan tends to come out of Pakistan, to be planned by Pakistanis, to be funded from Pakistan or in some other way to be traced to Pakistan," said Zakaria. He added that Pakistan's connection with terrorist groups goes back decades and has often been encouraged by that nation's military for strategic reasons.   Faisal Shahzad, a 30-year-old naturalized citizen of Pakistani descent, had recently been trained in bomb making in Pakistan's Waziristan province, according to a federal complaint filed in court Tuesday. CNN reported Tuesday that Faisal Shahzad's father is a retired vice-marshal in the Pakistani Air Force.   Shahzad was arrested around 11:45 p.m. ET Monday at New York's John F. Kennedy International Airport just before he was to fly to Islamabad, Pakistan, by way of Dubai. Zakaria, author and host of CNN's "Fareed Zakaria GPS," spoke to CNN on Tuesday. Here is an edited transcript:   CNN: Based on what we know so far, what lessons can be learned from this incident?   Fareed Zakaria: This does not seem to be part of a larger and more organized effort to penetrate the United States. That doesn't mean such efforts are not under way....it does make you realize just how open we are as a country and how open we are as a society. There is always a level of vulnerability that comes from being an open society and this guy, Mr. Shahzad obviously took advantage of that openness.   CNN: Apparently he traveled to Pakistan on a number of occasions. Does that signal that Pakistan isn't vigilant enough about terrorism?   Zakaria: Well it certainly signals something that we have known for a while, which is that Pakistan is the epicenter of Islamic terrorism. ... The British government has estimated that something like 80 percent of the terror threats that they receive have a Pakistani connection.   So there's no question that Pakistan has a terrorism problem. It has radical groups within the country that have the ability to recruit people and have access to resources that makes for a very combustible mixture.   It should remind us that even when looking at the war in Afghanistan, ultimately the most important place where jihadis are being trained and recruited is not in Afghanistan but in Pakistan. And there's no other part of the world where you have quite the same concentration of manpower, resources and ideology all feeding on each other.   CNN: What feeds the ideology that drives the terror effort?   Zakaria: Pakistan has been conducive to this kind of jihadis for a number of reasons. For the last three or four decades, the Pakistani government, the Pakistani military has supported, funded many of these groups in a bid to maintain influence in Afghanistan, in a bid to maintain an asymmetrical capacity against India -- in other words, to try to destabilize India rather cheaply through these militant groups rather than frontally through its army.   So it has found it useful to have these militant groups and to support them. It has always assumed that these groups will not attack Pakistanis and therefore was not a threat to Pakistan itself. And to a large extent that's true, these groups by and large have attacked people in Afghanistan, India, in the West but not in Pakistan. But that is changing, because these groups are so intermingled and often sufficiently ideological, and also because the Pakistani military is beginning to take them on.   But fundamentally the reason this has gone on is that there has been a policy of the Pakistani state and particularly the Pakistani military, to encourage these groups, to fund them, to ignore their most pernicious activities. And some of it goes back even further than four decades. In the 1965 war against India, the Pakistanis used Islamic jihadis   And the great hope now is that finally the Pakistani government is getting serious about this. Frankly it remains a hope.   CNN: Why do you say that it's only a hope?   Zakaria: Over the last few years, it appears that the Pakistani government has begun to understand that these groups all meld together, that they are a threat to a stable and viable modern Pakistani state. But when I talk about the Pakistani government you have to realize that there are different elements in it.   The Pakistani civilian government really does understand the danger that Islamic terrorism poses to Pakistan, but the civilian government in Pakistan appears quite powerless. Most power lies with the military.   The military in Pakistan has a somewhat more complex attitude. It does believe that these militants have gone too far. It does believe that it has to take on the militants. And it has actually battled them quite bravely over the last few years.   CNN: So what's the reason for thinking the military supports militant groups?   Zakaria: It still holds within it the view that at the end of the day, the United States will leave the region and that they will have to live in a neighborhood which will have a very powerful India and an Afghanistan that is potentially a client state of India's -- and that in order to combat this Indian domination, they need to maintain their asymmetrical capabilities, their militant groups.   It is interesting to note that Ahmed Rashid, who may be the most respected Pakistani journalist, has reported on the way in which Pakistani government has thwarted and put obstacles in the way of any kind of talks between the Afghan government and the Taliban.   The message it has sent to the Afghan government is very clear. If you want to have any negotiations with the Taliban, you have to understand that since we are the critical intermediary -- since the Taliban leadership all lives in Pakistan -- the Pakistani military's terms to the Afghan government are, we want you to push back on Indian influence in Afghanistan, we want you to shut down Indian consulates in various Afghan cities.   In other words, the Pakistani government is still obsessed with the idea of an Indian domination of the region, and they're using their influence with the Taliban to try to counter Indian influence. This is the old game that the Pakistanis have played.   That's what makes me skeptical that there's been a true strategic revolution in Pakistan... There are still people who believe that there are good terrorists and bad terrorists, and some you can work with to further Pakistan's goals.   CNN: In the attempted car bombing in Times Square and the Christmas Day attempted bombing, you have two failed plots that don't appear to be highly sophisticated. Does that tell us anything about the terror groups?   Zakaria: At some level, that tells you about the weakness of the terror groups. You do not have highly organized terrorist groups with great resources and capacity that are able to plan spectacular acts of terrorism the way they were in the 1990s and on 9/11.   What you have now are more isolated, disorganized lone rangers and while they're obviously very worrying and one has to be extremely vigilant, it is also at some level a sign of the weakness of an organization like al Qaeda that it is not able to do the kind of terrorist attacks it used to.   To be sure, it's important to be very vigilant and make sure you have groups like al Qaeda on the run. But I don't know that in a free society, you will ever be able to prevent an individual with no background in terrorism who's broken no laws and is radicalized from attempting to make some kind of trouble.   http://edition.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/05/05/zakaria.pakistan.terror/index.html?hpt=T2   From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Thu May 6 17:03:57 2010 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 04:33:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] "Dhaka raps to a new tune" Message-ID: <434873.97097.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Tuesday, May 4, 2010   "Dhaka raps to a new tune"   Rudroneel Ghosh   (The youth in Bangladesh are slowly finding their voice and some are making it heard through Bangla rap/hip hop. That’s a comment on Bangladeshi politics, society and economy. It also reflects the aspirations of the youth of Bangladesh eager to dump the burden of the past)   In 2006 Dhaka was in the middle of a curfew having witnessed days of domestic political strife. But there was a week of relative calm when rival political parties had called off their agitation, giving visitors like this writer a small window to slip in and out. The entire city was in lockdown. There were securitymen all over. However, four years later, a sea of change has swept over Dhaka. There is a buzz in the air and the people of this densely populated city are full of energy. This transformation merits investigation. Mushfiq was extremely concerned with the socio-economic development of Bangladesh. An employee for the Bangladesh branch of an international development consultancy firm, he spoke passionately about projects that would make positive qualitative differences at the grassroot level. His vision was that of a strong Bangladesh that would have socio-economic equality for all. He commented in an activist-like manner, “We have had three generations in Bangladesh. The first, comprising our founding fathers, was brilliant. But the second generation ruined everything. They presided over one of the most corrupt phases in our country’s history. It is now up to us to set things right. For this we need the right attitude.” It is becoming clear that the youth in Bangladesh are slowly finding their voice. They are well aware of the shortcomings of the previous generation. Yet, this writer came across reports in the local papers of violent clashes between student bodies of the Awami League and the Jamaat-e-Islami at Dhaka and Rajshahi universities. “These fellows are losers, useless people, they have nothing better to do,” Mushfiq commented. Dhaka too did not seem bothered about the clashes between the two politically aligned student bodies and was far more interested in the imminent Poila Phalgun celebrations. Traversing the bylanes of old Dhaka with Mushfiq and Raisa in hunt of shutki maach (dried fish), one noticed young women in traditional yellow saris with flowers in their hair busy shopping with their friends and families. But it was a small music shop in the city’s Gulshan market that led to a truly amazing discovery. Two huge speakers were blaring what sounded like a rap song. But it was all in Bangla. This was something new and original. The artiste happened to be someone called Fokir Lal Miah. He was good. Mushfiq said that Bangla rap/hip hop was an emerging music genre in Bangladesh with a handful of dedicated artistes and admirers. But this wasn’t usual rap/hip hop or the variety that is generally associated with American rap/ hip hop artistes. This was something deeper. For example, the song Beshi Kotha on Lal Miah’s album Chhoy Nong Bipod Shongket (No 6 Danger Warning) is a fantastic social commentary on how flippant and judgemental people can be. Similarly, the track Bichar Chai (Justice Needed), though not part of the album but available on the Internet, is Lal Miah’s brilliant commentary on more than three decades of Bangladeshi politics and the present socio-economic condition of that country. There was also Stoic Bliss, the pioneers of Bangla rap/hip hop, who were extensively featured on Lal Miah’s album. These youth were on a mission. They had a sense of purpose and wanted to give back something to their country. This writer tracked down Lal Miah and Stoic Bliss over the Internet and found them to be humble individuals dedicated to their craft. When asked as to what motivated him to sing and that too Bangla rap/hip hop, Lal Miah replied, “Struggle, injustice and personal experiences I have had in life… I want to tell stories, not just sing… It is my simple passion that has brought me here and keeps me here. This was never about fame or money… I am an artiste, the beat is my canvas and lyrics my paintbrush. I am here to draw actual images of the truth.” When asked if he had any message for the youth of Bangladesh, he said, “Some of our youth are completely lost. I want to tell them it isn’t what you wear, it isn’t about having a fancy English name; it is about being original and creative. Never follow in the footsteps of others. Chart your own course.” It was amazing how much energy Kazi and Sean Khan of Stoic Bliss had. “As a singer, my passion is soul music. The sub-continent has had its share of rock, pop, and every branch of music you can think of, both classical and modern. Soul and R&B need to be inducted into our rich musical lineage,” Kazi said. “In five years we see ourselves reaching audiences far beyond the borders of colour, creed and region… When Stoic Bliss released its first album — Light Years Ahead — in Bangladesh back in 2005, a lot of critics wrote us off as a fluke. But the Bangla rap/hip hop movement has been growing steadily since then, and will take some more time before it takes on a solid form... Historically everything takes time to be understood, appreciated and ultimately accepted. It is in our innate human nature to initially reject or belittle what we don’t understand. But time will bear witness… I believe music has no borders. Kono baranda nai (There are no verandahs). Indeed, this is a new Bangladesh. A Bangladesh that is young, restless and not afraid to make itself heard. It wants to cast aside the burden of yesteryears and forge for itself a new future, one that is based on respect for tradition and love for the motherland. Bangladesh is perhaps at the most exciting crossroad of its history.   http://www.dailypioneer.com/253422/Dhaka-raps-to-a-new-tune.html   From akmalik45 at yahoo.com Thu May 6 17:15:32 2010 From: akmalik45 at yahoo.com (A.K. Malik) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 04:45:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Delhi university and its radioactive possessions In-Reply-To: <208404.15905.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <87937.97398.qm@web112101.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Dear Mr Kaul, Since there has been no adverse comments on DU as written by Mr Yousuf, can we assume at least the people on this forum are not ANTI-DU or they are pro-DU. For Mr Yousuf, In a Govt/Govt controlled office none can dig up 20 years old file for auctioning scrap.If some equipment is not used, usually a circular is sent to sister units if the same is required by them at the book value or other agreed price.In this case probably even this was perhaps not considered. It is easy to pinpoint when something goes wrong but it would be almost impossible to make some one responsible for the mishap. Some heads may roll to please the people and contain the outburst. Regards, (A.K.MALIK) --- On Thu, 5/6/10, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > From: Kshmendra Kaul > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Delhi university and its radioactive possessions > To: "sarai list" , "Yousuf" > Date: Thursday, May 6, 2010, 1:21 PM > Dear Yousuf >   > People on this forum are still not certain what slant to > give to their illustrious comments: >   > - Anti-Hindu? Anti-Muslim? >   > - Anti-India? Pro-India? >   > - Anti-State? Pro-State? >   > - Anti-USA? Pro-USA?  >   > - Anti-Terrorists? Pro-Terrorists? >   > Kshmendra > > > --- On Thu, 5/6/10, Yousuf > wrote: > > > From: Yousuf > Subject: [Reader-list] Delhi university and its radioactive > possessions > To: "sarai list" > Date: Thursday, May 6, 2010, 9:17 AM > > > I am amazed that this forum is silent so far about the > callousness of DU's chemistry department in selling > radioactive material in scrap which led to the death of one > person and serious injury of several in Delhi. And how could > the university officials remain silent for 20 days when > people suffered and the police was going crazy trying find > out where the material came from. I wonder what else is > there in store for us. > > ==== > > All radioactive sources of varsity irradiator accounted > for: AERB > R. Ramachandran > > The Atomic Energy Regulatory Board (AERB) has identified > and accounted for all the cobalt-60 radioactive sources > originally present in the gamma cell irradiator of the > Chemistry Department of Delhi University. > > Stating this in a pres release here on Wednesday, the AERB > said that the sources would continue to remain in the safe > custody of the Department of Atomic Energy (DAE). > > It would be recalled that the irradiator, supplied by the > Atomic Energy of Canada Ltd. (AECL) in 1968, had been in > disuse since 1985 and was auctioned away to scrap dealers on > February 26. This had found its way to the metal scrap > market of Mayapuri in West Delhi. Without realising that > there was a radioactive source in the scrap, two Mayapuri > shops where the scrap had finally landed dismantled the > equipment and cut open the irradiator into several pieces. > This resulted in the people directly involved in the > operation and handling the pieces to high doses of > radiation. This caused severe radiation poisoning of seven > people engaged in the scrap metal business one of whom has > since died. The other six continue to battle for life – > one at Apollo Hospitals and the rest at the All India > Institute of Medical Sciences (AIIMS), New Delhi. > > Following a complete survey of the market, officials of the > AERB and the National Disaster Management Authority (NDMA) > stated that they located 11 radioactive sources in all — > eight from one shop, two from another and one from an > individual who was in its possession. Given the badly > mangled state of the irradiator and its pieces, it was not > clear then whether the 11 sources were all separate sources > or were pieces of a single source. These radioactive > materials were moved from Mayapuri in mid-April to the > Narora Atomic Power Station (NAPS) in U. P. > > Detailed inspections of the materials recovered were > carried out by the AERB officials at NAPS on May 3 and 4 > following which the statement was issued. The statement > clarifies that all the pieces originated from this single > Delhi University gamma irradiator's Co-60 source. This also > makes it clear that reports appearing in the media about > ‘missing radioactive pencils' and the ‘source trail > leading to Rewari (in Haryana)' were incorrect. > > According to S. K. Malhotra of the DAE, the reconstruction > was made possible by the details of the original device that > was supplied to the university in 1968, which the AERB > managed to obtain from the AECL. Apparently the AECL > responded to the query with great efficiency and supplied > the details of the sale 42 years ago within a couple of > hours. Mr. Malhotra also confirmed the initial activity of > the source was over 3,000 curies (Ci). After 42 years, or 8 > half-life periods of Co-60, the activity would have dropped > by a factor of 2 to the power of 8, or 256, only. (One curie > stands for 37 billion radioactive decays/sec.) > > According to the details provided by the AECL, the source > chamber had provision for 54 pencils of Co-60 of which only > 16 were occupied at the time of supply based on the > requirements specified by the user. Each cylindrical pencil > is made of 7 ‘slugs' or pieces of Co-60, each measuring > about 2.5 cm x 0.6 cm stacked together and all the pencils > constitute a unit that can be placed around any material to > be irradiated with gamma rays. The AERB claimed that they > were able to account for all the 112 slugs of the 16-pencil > Co-60 source unit. > Probe demanded > > In a related development, the Delhi University teachers' > Association (DUTA) has demanded an impartial enquiry by the > President of India, who is the Visitor of the university, > into the callous disposal of the Co-60 source to scrap > dealers. In particular, the DUTA has called for a enquiry > into the constitution by the vice-chancellor of the > committee that authorised its disposal and into the > inexplicable silence on the part of the university > authorities for as long as 20 days when the Delhi police and > the AERB were groping in darkness to hunt down the origin of > the radioactive material. “In this context, the speedy > work by the Delhi Police in tracking down the origin to the > Chemistry Department of Delhi University needs to be > commended, it said. > > http://beta.thehindu.com/news/national/article422833.ece > > >       > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > >       > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From yasir.media at gmail.com Thu May 6 17:17:14 2010 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?eWFzaXIgftmK2Kcg2LPYsQ==?=) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 16:47:14 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] PK: Recent Publications @ pildat.org Message-ID: From: PILDAT News System Date: Thu, May 6, 2010 at 4:15 PM *Recent Publications @ pildat.org* *Budget and Budgetary Process in the Parliament of India * Background Paper* May 2010* Download [PDF] *What is the Budget and Budgetary Process in the Parliament of India? This Background Paper, part of the PILDAT Series on Parliamentary Budget Process, has been especially commissioned by PILDAT to examine the Indian case in this regard. While several PILDAT publications earlier share overview of the Indian budget process, this background paper, authored by Ms. Gyana Ranjan Panda, Programme Officer, Centre for Budget and Governance Accountability, Delhi, describes in detail various stages of the Indian budget process in detail. The paper has been especially developed for the purpose of comparative analysis with the budgetary process in Pakistan and placed together with a PILDAT Baseline Report on Parliamentary Budget Process in Pakistan and Canada offers an insightful comparative perspective. * *Medium Term Budgetary Framework* Background Paper May 2010 Download [PDF] *The Federal Government has embarked upon a budget management reform programme called the Medium- Term Budgetary Framework (MTBF). Essentially, this means that the upcoming Federal Budget will be based on the model known as 'Medium-Term Budget Estimates by Service Delivery' which would present 1 year budget and 2 years projections for services (outputs) delivered by each Ministry / Division. The services are also linked with outcomes (affects on target population) and with the performance indicators and targets. This Background Paper is aimed at sharing details of the MTBF with Parliamentarians as part of the overall budget process reforms introduced by the Government. The brief has been authored by Mr. Nohman Ishtiaq, Consultant MTBF at the Ministry of Finance who is currently leading the MTBF reform and has been working with Ministry of Finance for the past three years.* *Policy Brief: Proposals for Electoral Reforms* Policy Brief April 2010 Download [PDF] This Policy Brief includes proposals regarding computerized Electoral Roll and enrollment as a Voter at the time of making of Computerised National Identification Cards (CNICs) using NADRA's expertise. The Brief contains proposals about placing checks on the office of the President and the Governors from influencing the electoral process. The disclosure and declarations by the candidates should be made public before every election, demands CGEP while offering proposals for an inclusive method of appointment of the Chief Election Commissioner (CEC) and the need for changing the eligibility criteria for the post of the CEC. The Election Commission should compose of permanent members, the CGEP proposes while advocating reforms such as live posting of polling stations wise (progressive) voting results on the ECP website; an agreed Code of Conduct by political parties; strict compliance of Laws by the ECP to control Government influence; setting up of a realistic ceiling on maximum election expenses and application of electoral rules and laws on all. The CGEP also proposes a system of appointing Election Observers from amongst public officials by the ECP in every district to ensure compliance of electoral rules and laws and to report back to the ECP in time for action. *CGEP: Proposals for Electoral Reforms* Position Paper March 2010 Download [PDF] Download Urdu Version [PDF] PILDAT facilitated the formation of the Citizens Group on Electoral Process-CGEP in 2006, with the avowed Pgoal of contributing towards the holding of free, fair and credible elections in Pakistan. A number of well-known personalities from the media, legal profession, civil society and former members of the superior judiciary and armed forces, but with no present affiliation with any political party, have been serving as members. The CGEP has played a key role in monitoring the electoral process ahead of February 2008 General Elections and is now working to institute and promote Electoral Reforms in Pakistan. In one of its key publications, the Group outlined a set of required Electoral Reforms in Pakistan in September 2007 and revised in 2008 after consultation with different stakeholders. This paper was shared with the policymakers of the time, political parties, media and other segments of the civil society. The Electoral Reform proposals have been updated in March 2010. The CGEP believes that the time to consider and institute required Electoral Reforms in the country is now. The elected political government, Parliament and the new administration of the Election Commission of Pakistan are well-aware of the challenges of the existing electoral system. A firm political will and commitment to reform at this stage, with support from citizens and the media, therefore, can enable the country to put in place the Electoral Reforms that can truly provide a level-playing field to all and fulfil the criteria of free, fair and credible elections in Pakistan. The updated proposals on Electoral Reforms by CGEP, therefore, are our sincere contribution to this process at this crucial stage. *State of the Electoral Rolls in Pakistan* Background Paper March 2010 Download [PDF] Download Urdu Version [PDF] It remains the Constitutional responsibility of the Election Commission of Pakistan to update the Electoral Rolls annually. While the next General Election is due by 2013, the Local Government Election is expected to be held during 2010 and it is necessary that the Electoral Rolls in Pakistan are error-free ahead of any elections in Pakistan. This paper traces the progress on Computerised Electoral Rolls in Pakistan after February 2008 General Election, note the progress in removing issues identified in Computerised Electoral Rolls, and the new round of collaboration between the ECP and the NADRA to produce accurate Electoral Rolls for future elections. The paper also identifies some key questions that need to be addressed in order to restore people's faith in the Electoral Rolls in particular and the electoral process in general. *Narcotics and Pakistan* Background Paper March 2010 Download [PDF] Download Urdu Version [PDF] Production and trafficking of narcotics and its nexus with insurgency and terrorism targeting Pakistan is a critical issue for Pakistan. The Government of Pakistan is about to announce its new Anti-Narcotics Policy 2010. It is, therefore, important for the citizens to review the draft policy and provide their input to the government before its finalisation. This Background Paper, prepared by Ms. Soufia Siddiqui under the guidance of PILDAT, sets the draft policy in a context, analysing the need for a comprehensive policy on narcotics control in Pakistan. Impetus for this Background Paper, and a series of Consultation with a cross-section of the society have been provided by the draft Anti-Narcotics Policy formulated by the Ministry of Narcotics Control. We acknowledge the support of the Ministry in sharing the draft Policy as well as the Ministry Year Books that have been used as sources in preparing this Background Paper. *Making Intelligence Accountable: Report * Roundtable Discussion and Launch of Urdu Version of Handbook* **March 2010* *Establishing a system of intelligence service accountability that is both democratic and efficient is one of the most daunting challenges faced by modern-day states. This arduous task is indispensable, howerver, as political guidance and direction to the reform of intelligence services contributes to the avoidance of abuses as well as to the enhancement of efficiency for all participating branches of government.* *Parliamentary Budget Process in Pakistan and Canada* Baseline Report* January 2010** *Download [PDF] *Download Urdu Version [PDF] * *The priorities of any nation are reflected in its policies and strategies. The national budget, representing the government's fiscal, financial and economic objectives, serves as the most important policy document of a county. The national budget-making process is the single most important entry point for influencing governmental priorities. Pakistan's current budgetary process has, for various historical reasons, attracted little input from parliamentarians, political parties or wider civil society. The budget process has, in consequence, become solely the domain of the government, leaving little scope for analysis or accountability. The purpose of this Baseline Report is to describe the current baseline conditions of the budgetary process in Pakistan in order to enable the partners in this project to identify weaknesses and the possibilities for strengthening and change. The report seeks to address the lack of parliamentary and political party scrutiny of the budget process. * *Parliamentary Oversight of the Defence Sector in India* Background Paper* January 2010** *Download [PDF] India and Pakistan share similar Parliamentary systems and a political history, although the two countries have had diverse experiences of civil-military relations. What have been the experiences of India, especially Parliamentary experiences, of democratic control and oversight of the defence sector? PILDAT has commissioned a series of papers on the issue to provide a comparative perspective on democratic and parliamentary experiences of India in the field of defence oversight. The paper on Parliamentary Oversight of the Defence Sector in India, part of the series of PILDAT, provides a detailed overview of the system and practice of oversight employed by Parliamentary Committees in India. The paper is authored by Mr. S. Samuel C. Rajiv, a Researcher at the Institute for Defence Studies and Analyses (IDSA), New Delhi. The advice and guidance of Director General IDSA, Mr. N. S. Sisodia, in the preparation of this paper is also gratefully acknowledged. PILDAT wishes to acknowledge the support provided by the United States Institute of Peace towards PILDAT's larger programme of "Research and Dialogue on Civil-Military Relations for Conflict Prevention in Pakistan." The paper has been prepared under this project. *Punjab Ka Salana Tarqyati Programme (ADP) 2010-2011 (Urdu Version) * Objectives, Strategies, Priorities and Estimates *January 2010** *Download [PDF] This Briefing Paper, Annual Development Programme (ADP) of Punjab 2010-2011, has been prepared to provide an overview of the current Budget Process, the upcoming Budget and the Annual Development Programme (ADP) for the Financial Year 2010-2011 to enable the Honourable Members of the Provincial Assembly of the Punjab to contribute more effectively during the Pre-Budget Session of the Provincial Assembly of the Punjab. The briefing paper covers sub-topics such as objectives of the Annual Development Programme, adoption of strategies to achieve those objectives, priorities in Annual Development Programme (including social, production and services sectors), Financial Estimations for Annual Development Programme 2010-2011 and Guidelines for the preparation of the Annual Development Programme (ADP) 2010-2011. The Competition Ordinance 2007 PILDAT Legislative Brief January 2010 Download [PDF] This Ordinance was a response to concerns that some businesses within Pakistan were dominating markets and operating anti-competitive practices, which were damaging to consumers and Pakistan's national and international trade. The Ordinance establishes the Competition Commission, whose members are appointed by the federal Government. The Commission's role is to police the market, investigate undertakings, initiate proceedings, conduct inquiries and studies, give advice and advocate in favour of competition. As part of its inquiries and investigations, the Commission has judicial powers to make orders, enter and search premises, copy and seize evidence and to impose significant penalties for market infringements. Appeals against its orders lie to an appellate bench of the Commission and to the Supreme Court thereafter. The Defence Housing Authority Islamabad Ordinance 2007 PILDAT Legislative Brief January 2010 Download [PDF] This Ordinance was introduced by President Pervez Musharraf and represented a further expansion of the already existing model of Defence Housing Authorities in Karachi and Lahore. The Ordinance served to change the status of the previous body, the Army Welfare Housing Scheme ("AWHS"), from a private, regulated authority to a quasi-public, commercial entity. This expansion was a further step in the process of enlarging the interests of the Armyrelated institutions into non-military, commercial concerns, whilst granting discriminatory advantage to the Army-related institutions in terms of the market. The Ordinance dissolved the AWHS and transferred its assets and liabilities to the newly created DHA. The DHA was established as a corporate body, with legal identity and the ability to enter into contracts, hold land and sue/be sued. The Ordinance established a governing body, headed by the Secretary, Ministry of Defence and Aviation, along with an Executive Board to carry out the administrative, executive and financing functions of the DHA. The Executive has broad-ranging powers to purchase and develop land, enter into contracts and financial transactions, raise funds, plan developments, employ staff and issue rules and regulations. It may also operate an Authority fund, into which all of its funds are placed. However, in addition to these standard commercial functions, the DHA is granted a number of significant public and quasi-public powers, which grant it a significant advantage over privately operated concerns. The DHA operates as a municipal authority, effectively as a form of unelected and unaccountable local government. Its employees are civil servants and are given effective immunity in respect of legal proceedings arising from any actions taken in good faith. The provisions of the Industrial Relations Act do not apply to its employees. The DHA Executive also has a broad power to make and issue rules and regulations to assist it in carrying out its functions. PILDAT will welcome feedback and comments at info at pildat.org If you wish to unsubscribe, please e-mail at unsubscribe at pildat.org *Recent Events* Parliamentarians strongly demand Pre-Budget Session; Complain about an ineffective Role of Parliament in the Budget Process Federal and Provincial Governments are urged not to allow a vacuum in Labour Laws to emerge after the expiration of IRA 2008 on April 30, 2010 Inputs in the Federal Budget should be made by Business, Media and Civil Society at this Stage: Syed Naveed Qamar Now is the time to institute Electoral Reforms: CGEP *Links:* PILDAT Website PILDAT Events PILDAT Publications Feedback From akmalik45 at yahoo.com Thu May 6 17:21:53 2010 From: akmalik45 at yahoo.com (A.K. Malik) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 04:51:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Delhi university and its radioactive possessions In-Reply-To: <911513.65912.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <208811.52065.qm@web112118.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hi Mr Kaul, I received this message late and had already posted my comments for anti-DU or pro-DU in a lighter vein.At least there seems to be at least TWO anti -DUs on this forum. Regards, (A.K.MALIK) --- On Thu, 5/6/10, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > From: Kshmendra Kaul > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Delhi university and its radioactive possessions > To: "sarai list" , "Yousuf" > Date: Thursday, May 6, 2010, 2:11 PM > Dear Yousuf >   > Apologies for the earlier response (which was not directed > at you). I was bristling because of two recent nonsensical > comments addressed to/towards me. >   > It is not enough to comment upon the callousness of DU's > Chemistry Department. >   > As you have pointed, a life has been lost and many are > suffering serious reactions because of the exposure to the > Cobalt 60. It is shocking, it is disgusting that there does > not seem to be any attempt this far in making people in DU > accountable for this. >   > It also brings up the question of what systems are in place > in Institutions (Research and Medical) to protect the usage > and disposal of radioactive material. There would > be hundreds of such institutions. (Top of the head > estimate). >   > The larger issue is of India's seriousness and ability > to ensure that the protections needed are systemised > through monitored SOPs. >   > One also wonders how many such deaths might have taken > place because of similar exposure to radioactive material, > the cause for which simply escaped being identified because > those who died were impoverished and their deaths would not > have been properly investigated. >   > Kshmendra  > > --- On Thu, 5/6/10, Yousuf > wrote: > > > From: Yousuf > Subject: [Reader-list] Delhi university and its radioactive > possessions > To: "sarai list" > Date: Thursday, May 6, 2010, 9:17 AM > > > I am amazed that this forum is silent so far about the > callousness of DU's chemistry department in selling > radioactive material in scrap which led to the death of one > person and serious injury of several in Delhi. And how could > the university officials remain silent for 20 days when > people suffered and the police was going crazy trying find > out where the material came from. I wonder what else is > there in store for us. > > ==== > > All radioactive sources of varsity irradiator accounted > for: AERB > R. Ramachandran > > The Atomic Energy Regulatory Board (AERB) has identified > and accounted for all the cobalt-60 radioactive sources > originally present in the gamma cell irradiator of the > Chemistry Department of Delhi University. > > Stating this in a pres release here on Wednesday, the AERB > said that the sources would continue to remain in the safe > custody of the Department of Atomic Energy (DAE). > > It would be recalled that the irradiator, supplied by the > Atomic Energy of Canada Ltd. (AECL) in 1968, had been in > disuse since 1985 and was auctioned away to scrap dealers on > February 26. This had found its way to the metal scrap > market of Mayapuri in West Delhi. Without realising that > there was a radioactive source in the scrap, two Mayapuri > shops where the scrap had finally landed dismantled the > equipment and cut open the irradiator into several pieces. > This resulted in the people directly involved in the > operation and handling the pieces to high doses of > radiation. This caused severe radiation poisoning of seven > people engaged in the scrap metal business one of whom has > since died. The other six continue to battle for life – > one at Apollo Hospitals and the rest at the All India > Institute of Medical Sciences (AIIMS), New Delhi. > > Following a complete survey of the market, officials of the > AERB and the National Disaster Management Authority (NDMA) > stated that they located 11 radioactive sources in all — > eight from one shop, two from another and one from an > individual who was in its possession. Given the badly > mangled state of the irradiator and its pieces, it was not > clear then whether the 11 sources were all separate sources > or were pieces of a single source. These radioactive > materials were moved from Mayapuri in mid-April to the > Narora Atomic Power Station (NAPS) in U. P. > > Detailed inspections of the materials recovered were > carried out by the AERB officials at NAPS on May 3 and 4 > following which the statement was issued. The statement > clarifies that all the pieces originated from this single > Delhi University gamma irradiator's Co-60 source. This also > makes it clear that reports appearing in the media about > ‘missing radioactive pencils' and the ‘source trail > leading to Rewari (in Haryana)' were incorrect. > > According to S. K. Malhotra of the DAE, the reconstruction > was made possible by the details of the original device that > was supplied to the university in 1968, which the AERB > managed to obtain from the AECL. Apparently the AECL > responded to the query with great efficiency and supplied > the details of the sale 42 years ago within a couple of > hours. Mr. Malhotra also confirmed the initial activity of > the source was over 3,000 curies (Ci). After 42 years, or 8 > half-life periods of Co-60, the activity would have dropped > by a factor of 2 to the power of 8, or 256, only. (One curie > stands for 37 billion radioactive decays/sec.) > > According to the details provided by the AECL, the source > chamber had provision for 54 pencils of Co-60 of which only > 16 were occupied at the time of supply based on the > requirements specified by the user. Each cylindrical pencil > is made of 7 ‘slugs' or pieces of Co-60, each measuring > about 2.5 cm x 0.6 cm stacked together and all the pencils > constitute a unit that can be placed around any material to > be irradiated with gamma rays. The AERB claimed that they > were able to account for all the 112 slugs of the 16-pencil > Co-60 source unit. > Probe demanded > > In a related development, the Delhi University teachers' > Association (DUTA) has demanded an impartial enquiry by the > President of India, who is the Visitor of the university, > into the callous disposal of the Co-60 source to scrap > dealers. In particular, the DUTA has called for a enquiry > into the constitution by the vice-chancellor of the > committee that authorised its disposal and into the > inexplicable silence on the part of the university > authorities for as long as 20 days when the Delhi police and > the AERB were groping in darkness to hunt down the origin of > the radioactive material. “In this context, the speedy > work by the Delhi Police in tracking down the origin to the > Chemistry Department of Delhi University needs to be > commended, it said. > > http://beta.thehindu.com/news/national/article422833.ece > > >       > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > >       > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Thu May 6 19:05:51 2010 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 14:35:51 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] " Pakistan is 'epicenter of Islamic terrorism' " In-Reply-To: <982630.78730.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <982630.78730.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I wonder where will brilliant journalists like Fareed go now??? http://dealbook.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/05/06/with-newsweek-for-sale-an-era-fades/ With Newsweek for Sale, an Era Fades May 6, 2010, 1:56 am For generations, Time and Newsweek fought to define the national news agenda every Monday on the newsstand. Before the Internet, before cable news, before People magazine, what the newsweeklies put on their covers mattered. As the American conversation has become harder to sum up in a single cover, that era seems to be ending. The Washington Post Company announced Wednesday that it would sell Newsweek, raising questions about the future of the newsweekly, first published 77 years ago, Stephanie Clifford reports in The New York Times. Donald E. Graham, chairman and chief executive of the Washington Post Company, said in an interview that the decision was purely economic. “I did not want to do this, but it is a business,” he said. The magazine would lose money in 2010, he said, and “we don’t see a sustained path to profitability for Newsweek.” The move comes as companies have been sloughing off and revamping other mass magazines. TV Guide was sold for $1 to a private equity firm; Businessweek was sold for $5 million in cash to Bloomberg L.P.; and Reader’s Digest was given an editorial overhaul as it slashed circulation. The circulations of Time and Newsweek now stand about where they were in 1966, according to the Audit Bureau of Circulations. “Those magazines had much more stature in those days,” said Edward Kosner, who began at Newsweek in 1963 and was its editor in the late 1970s. “It was really important what was on the cover of Newsweek and what was on the cover of Time because it was what passed for the national press. They helped set the agenda; they helped make reputations.” “The era of mass is over, in some respect,” said Charles Whitaker, research chairman in magazine journalism at the Northwestern University school of journalism. “The newsweeklies, for so long, have tried to be all things to all people, and that’s just not going to cut it in this highly niche, politically polarized, media-stratified environment that we live in today.” Jon Meacham, Newsweek’s editor since 2006, said the announcement was not a surprise. “In the sense that we are all in an existential crisis, it is not what I would call a stunning decision,” he said in an interview. “You would have to have been hopelessly Pollyanna-ish not to have suspected that there were fundamental shifts ahead.” But, he said, “I decline to accept that Newsweek in some form does not have a role to play going forward.” Potential bidders were unclear. Bloomberg L.P., which just bought Businessweek, was not exploring a purchase, said a spokeswoman, Judith Czelusniak. Mr. Meacham said that he was considering putting together investors to buy the magazine, and that he had received voicemail messages from two billionaires after the sale was announced. Newsweek had operating losses of $28.1 million in 2009, 82.5 percent higher than the previous year’s loss of $15.4 million. Its revenue declined 27.2 percent, to $165.5 million in 2009, from $227.4 million in 2008, hurt by diminished advertising and subscription revenue. Started in 1933, Newsweek was acquired by The Washington Post in 1961 after Benjamin C. Bradlee, then a Newsweek editor and later executive editor of The Post, pitched the Post president Philip L. Graham on it. Newsweek under The Post became a political counterweight to the Republicanism of Time under Henry Luce. While Time took a conservative stance on the Vietnam War and American culture, Newsweek ran more youth oriented covers on the war, civil rights and pop culture stars like the Beatles (though “musically they are a near disaster,” the magazine said). Mr. Kosner, the former editor, recalled weekly bouts of “controlled anxiety” over what Time would put on its cover. “On Monday mornings, on the advertising page of The Times, Time and Newsweek took out sort of quarter-page ads that showed the cover and everyone turned to that page on Monday mornings to see what each of them had done,” Mr. Kosner said. Slowly, though, cable news programs grew in number and popularity, and the instant news of the Internet rendered weekly summaries stale almost by definition. And the notion of a cultural common ground that Americans could all share was changing. Newsweek’s circulation was 3.14 million in the first half of 2000. By the second half of 2009, that dropped to 1.97 million. Time’s circulation declined from 4.07 million to 3.33 million in the same period. U.S. News & World Report, the also-ran newsweekly, abandoned its weekly publication schedule in 2008 to become monthly. Meanwhile, The Economist, which offered British-accented reports on business and economic news, and The Week, an unabashedly middle-brow summary of the weekly news that began publishing in the United States in 2001, were on the rise. Both Time and Newsweek were aggressively redesigned. Time, in 2007, changed its publication date from Monday to Friday and added more analysis. Newsweek, in 2009, more or less ceased original reporting about the week’s events, and instead ran essays from columnists like Fareed Zakaria and opinionated analyses. Mr. Whitaker of Northwestern said that editorially, the magazines’ reinventions had not worked well. “I don’t think Time and Newsweek, in this transformation, had enough of a distinct voice to capture the fancy of anyone in this incredibly polarized political environment,” he said. Richard Stengel, the managing editor of Time, took issue with Mr. Whitaker’s characterization. “Our audience is bigger than the cable audiences,” he said. “What we have embraced is point-of-view journalism.” Mr. Stengel said that Time was “very profitable last year, and we will be even more profitable this year.” Both magazines increased their prices: Newsweek now sells for $5.95 on the newsstand, and Time for $4.95. However, subscribers pay only about 50 cents a copy for either magazine. Both also lowered the circulation guaranteed to advertisers: Time guarantees a 3.25 million circulation, and Newsweek just 1.5 million. In 2009, as the advertising slump hit magazines, Newsweek’s ad pages fell 25.9 percent, about average for the industry, while Time’s fared better, dropping 17.4 percent. “The big factor is just the eroding advertising base — the loss of automotive, financial, technology advertising,” said George Janson, managing partner for the media-buying unit GroupM Print. “It’s not going to go back to where it was anytime soon.” And, he said, many advertisers prefer to run ads in niche publications, not broad ones. “There are increasing challenges to being a single magazine company, particularly one that is targeted toward a general-interest area,” said Jonathan A. Knee, who oversaw the sale of Businessweek as senior managing director at Evercore Partners. But Mr. Meacham said that national coherence was still a worthwhile goal. “I would argue the fragmentation in media makes a place like Newsweek even more important,” Mr. Meacham said. “There are not that many common denominators left.” From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Thu May 6 19:16:55 2010 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 06:46:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Delhi university and its radioactive possessions In-Reply-To: <208811.52065.qm@web112118.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <885350.52845.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear AKM   I am not Anti-DU. I try not to be Anti-Anyone.   As a NATIONALIST, my main concern is about matters that are harmful for India and it's People, whether those threats are from within the country or are external.   Kshmendra    --- On Thu, 5/6/10, A.K. Malik wrote: From: A.K. Malik Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Delhi university and its radioactive possessions To: "Kshmendra Kaul" Cc: "Sarai List" Date: Thursday, May 6, 2010, 5:21 PM Hi Mr Kaul,            I received this message late and had already posted my comments for anti-DU or pro-DU in a lighter vein.At least there seems to be at least TWO anti -DUs on this forum. Regards, (A.K.MALIK) --- On Thu, 5/6/10, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > From: Kshmendra Kaul > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Delhi university and its radioactive possessions > To: "sarai list" , "Yousuf" > Date: Thursday, May 6, 2010, 2:11 PM > Dear Yousuf >   > Apologies for the earlier response (which was not directed > at you). I was bristling because of two recent nonsensical > comments addressed to/towards me. >   > It is not enough to comment upon the callousness of DU's > Chemistry Department. >   > As you have pointed, a life has been lost and many are > suffering serious reactions because of the exposure to the > Cobalt 60. It is shocking, it is disgusting that there does > not seem to be any attempt this far in making people in DU > accountable for this. >   > It also brings up the question of what systems are in place > in Institutions (Research and Medical) to protect the usage > and disposal of radioactive material. There would > be hundreds of such institutions. (Top of the head > estimate). >   > The larger issue is of India's seriousness and ability > to ensure that the protections needed are systemised > through monitored SOPs. >   > One also wonders how many such deaths might have taken > place because of similar exposure to radioactive material, > the cause for which simply escaped being identified because > those who died were impoverished and their deaths would not > have been properly investigated. >   > Kshmendra  > > --- On Thu, 5/6/10, Yousuf > wrote: > > > From: Yousuf > Subject: [Reader-list] Delhi university and its radioactive > possessions > To: "sarai list" > Date: Thursday, May 6, 2010, 9:17 AM > > > I am amazed that this forum is silent so far about the > callousness of DU's chemistry department in selling > radioactive material in scrap which led to the death of one > person and serious injury of several in Delhi. And how could > the university officials remain silent for 20 days when > people suffered and the police was going crazy trying find > out where the material came from. I wonder what else is > there in store for us. > > ==== > > All radioactive sources of varsity irradiator accounted > for: AERB > R. Ramachandran > > The Atomic Energy Regulatory Board (AERB) has identified > and accounted for all the cobalt-60 radioactive sources > originally present in the gamma cell irradiator of the > Chemistry Department of Delhi University. > > Stating this in a pres release here on Wednesday, the AERB > said that the sources would continue to remain in the safe > custody of the Department of Atomic Energy (DAE). > > It would be recalled that the irradiator, supplied by the > Atomic Energy of Canada Ltd. (AECL) in 1968, had been in > disuse since 1985 and was auctioned away to scrap dealers on > February 26. This had found its way to the metal scrap > market of Mayapuri in West Delhi. Without realising that > there was a radioactive source in the scrap, two Mayapuri > shops where the scrap had finally landed dismantled the > equipment and cut open the irradiator into several pieces. > This resulted in the people directly involved in the > operation and handling the pieces to high doses of > radiation. This caused severe radiation poisoning of seven > people engaged in the scrap metal business one of whom has > since died. The other six continue to battle for life – > one at Apollo Hospitals and the rest at the All India > Institute of Medical Sciences (AIIMS), New Delhi. > > Following a complete survey of the market, officials of the > AERB and the National Disaster Management Authority (NDMA) > stated that they located 11 radioactive sources in all — > eight from one shop, two from another and one from an > individual who was in its possession. Given the badly > mangled state of the irradiator and its pieces, it was not > clear then whether the 11 sources were all separate sources > or were pieces of a single source. These radioactive > materials were moved from Mayapuri in mid-April to the > Narora Atomic Power Station (NAPS) in U. P. > > Detailed inspections of the materials recovered were > carried out by the AERB officials at NAPS on May 3 and 4 > following which the statement was issued. The statement > clarifies that all the pieces originated from this single > Delhi University gamma irradiator's Co-60 source. This also > makes it clear that reports appearing in the media about > ‘missing radioactive pencils' and the ‘source trail > leading to Rewari (in Haryana)' were incorrect. > > According to S. K. Malhotra of the DAE, the reconstruction > was made possible by the details of the original device that > was supplied to the university in 1968, which the AERB > managed to obtain from the AECL. Apparently the AECL > responded to the query with great efficiency and supplied > the details of the sale 42 years ago within a couple of > hours. Mr. Malhotra also confirmed the initial activity of > the source was over 3,000 curies (Ci). After 42 years, or 8 > half-life periods of Co-60, the activity would have dropped > by a factor of 2 to the power of 8, or 256, only. (One curie > stands for 37 billion radioactive decays/sec.) > > According to the details provided by the AECL, the source > chamber had provision for 54 pencils of Co-60 of which only > 16 were occupied at the time of supply based on the > requirements specified by the user. Each cylindrical pencil > is made of 7 ‘slugs' or pieces of Co-60, each measuring > about 2.5 cm x 0.6 cm stacked together and all the pencils > constitute a unit that can be placed around any material to > be irradiated with gamma rays. The AERB claimed that they > were able to account for all the 112 slugs of the 16-pencil > Co-60 source unit. > Probe demanded > > In a related development, the Delhi University teachers' > Association (DUTA) has demanded an impartial enquiry by the > President of India, who is the Visitor of the university, > into the callous disposal of the Co-60 source to scrap > dealers. In particular, the DUTA has called for a enquiry > into the constitution by the vice-chancellor of the > committee that authorised its disposal and into the > inexplicable silence on the part of the university > authorities for as long as 20 days when the Delhi police and > the AERB were groping in darkness to hunt down the origin of > the radioactive material. “In this context, the speedy > work by the Delhi Police in tracking down the origin to the > Chemistry Department of Delhi University needs to be > commended, it said. > > http://beta.thehindu.com/news/national/article422833.ece > > >       > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > >       > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From taraprakash at gmail.com Thu May 6 19:27:24 2010 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 09:57:24 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] " Pakistan is 'epicenter of Islamic terrorism' " References: <982630.78730.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: News Week is still alive and kicking. There may be doubts about the future of print but News Week isn't going to die. It's abrand many will like to buy and Zakaria can go where News Week goes, may be to Amazon.com. And perhaps you know that writing for News Week is not the only thing that Zakaria does, he is a well-known writer and not going to remain unemployed. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Taha Mehmood" <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> To: "Kshmendra Kaul" Cc: "sarai list" Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2010 9:35 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] " Pakistan is 'epicenter of Islamic terrorism' " >I wonder where will brilliant journalists like Fareed go now??? > > http://dealbook.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/05/06/with-newsweek-for-sale-an-era-fades/ > With Newsweek for Sale, an Era Fades > > May 6, 2010, 1:56 am > > For generations, Time and Newsweek fought to define the national news > agenda every Monday on the newsstand. Before the Internet, before > cable news, before People magazine, what the newsweeklies put on their > covers mattered. > > As the American conversation has become harder to sum up in a single > cover, that era seems to be ending. The Washington Post Company > announced Wednesday that it would sell Newsweek, raising questions > about the future of the newsweekly, first published 77 years ago, > Stephanie Clifford reports in The New York Times. > > Donald E. Graham, chairman and chief executive of the Washington Post > Company, said in an interview that the decision was purely economic. > > “I did not want to do this, but it is a business,” he said. The > magazine would lose money in 2010, he said, and “we don’t see a > sustained path to profitability for Newsweek.” > > The move comes as companies have been sloughing off and revamping > other mass magazines. TV Guide was sold for $1 to a private equity > firm; Businessweek was sold for $5 million in cash to Bloomberg L.P.; > and Reader’s Digest was given an editorial overhaul as it slashed > circulation. > > The circulations of Time and Newsweek now stand about where they were > in 1966, according to the Audit Bureau of Circulations. > > “Those magazines had much more stature in those days,” said Edward > Kosner, who began at Newsweek in 1963 and was its editor in the late > 1970s. “It was really important what was on the cover of Newsweek and > what was on the cover of Time because it was what passed for the > national press. They helped set the agenda; they helped make > reputations.” > > “The era of mass is over, in some respect,” said Charles Whitaker, > research chairman in magazine journalism at the Northwestern > University school of journalism. “The newsweeklies, for so long, have > tried to be all things to all people, and that’s just not going to cut > it in this highly niche, politically polarized, media-stratified > environment that we live in today.” > > Jon Meacham, Newsweek’s editor since 2006, said the announcement was > not a surprise. “In the sense that we are all in an existential > crisis, it is not what I would call a stunning decision,” he said in > an interview. “You would have to have been hopelessly Pollyanna-ish > not to have suspected that there were fundamental shifts ahead.” > > But, he said, “I decline to accept that Newsweek in some form does not > have a role to play going forward.” > > Potential bidders were unclear. Bloomberg L.P., which just bought > Businessweek, was not exploring a purchase, said a spokeswoman, Judith > Czelusniak. Mr. Meacham said that he was considering putting together > investors to buy the magazine, and that he had received voicemail > messages from two billionaires after the sale was announced. > > Newsweek had operating losses of $28.1 million in 2009, 82.5 percent > higher than the previous year’s loss of $15.4 million. Its revenue > declined 27.2 percent, to $165.5 million in 2009, from $227.4 million > in 2008, hurt by diminished advertising and subscription revenue. > > Started in 1933, Newsweek was acquired by The Washington Post in 1961 > after Benjamin C. Bradlee, then a Newsweek editor and later executive > editor of The Post, pitched the Post president Philip L. Graham on it. > > Newsweek under The Post became a political counterweight to the > Republicanism of Time under Henry Luce. While Time took a conservative > stance on the Vietnam War and American culture, Newsweek ran more > youth oriented covers on the war, civil rights and pop culture stars > like the Beatles (though “musically they are a near disaster,” the > magazine said). > > Mr. Kosner, the former editor, recalled weekly bouts of “controlled > anxiety” over what Time would put on its cover. > > “On Monday mornings, on the advertising page of The Times, Time and > Newsweek took out sort of quarter-page ads that showed the cover and > everyone turned to that page on Monday mornings to see what each of > them had done,” Mr. Kosner said. > > Slowly, though, cable news programs grew in number and popularity, and > the instant news of the Internet rendered weekly summaries stale > almost by definition. And the notion of a cultural common ground that > Americans could all share was changing. > > Newsweek’s circulation was 3.14 million in the first half of 2000. By > the second half of 2009, that dropped to 1.97 million. Time’s > circulation declined from 4.07 million to 3.33 million in the same > period. U.S. News & World Report, the also-ran newsweekly, abandoned > its weekly publication schedule in 2008 to become monthly. > > Meanwhile, The Economist, which offered British-accented reports on > business and economic news, and The Week, an unabashedly middle-brow > summary of the weekly news that began publishing in the United States > in 2001, were on the rise. > > Both Time and Newsweek were aggressively redesigned. Time, in 2007, > changed its publication date from Monday to Friday and added more > analysis. Newsweek, in 2009, more or less ceased original reporting > about the week’s events, and instead ran essays from columnists like > Fareed Zakaria and opinionated analyses. > > Mr. Whitaker of Northwestern said that editorially, the magazines’ > reinventions had not worked well. “I don’t think Time and Newsweek, in > this transformation, had enough of a distinct voice to capture the > fancy of anyone in this incredibly polarized political environment,” > he said. > > Richard Stengel, the managing editor of Time, took issue with Mr. > Whitaker’s characterization. > > “Our audience is bigger than the cable audiences,” he said. “What we > have embraced is point-of-view journalism.” > > Mr. Stengel said that Time was “very profitable last year, and we will > be even more profitable this year.” > > Both magazines increased their prices: Newsweek now sells for $5.95 on > the newsstand, and Time for $4.95. However, subscribers pay only about > 50 cents a copy for either magazine. > > Both also lowered the circulation guaranteed to advertisers: Time > guarantees a 3.25 million circulation, and Newsweek just 1.5 million. > > In 2009, as the advertising slump hit magazines, Newsweek’s ad pages > fell 25.9 percent, about average for the industry, while Time’s fared > better, dropping 17.4 percent. > > “The big factor is just the eroding advertising base — the loss of > automotive, financial, technology advertising,” said George Janson, > managing partner for the media-buying unit GroupM Print. “It’s not > going to go back to where it was anytime soon.” And, he said, many > advertisers prefer to run ads in niche publications, not broad ones. > > “There are increasing challenges to being a single magazine company, > particularly one that is targeted toward a general-interest area,” > said Jonathan A. Knee, who oversaw the sale of Businessweek as senior > managing director at Evercore Partners. > > But Mr. Meacham said that national coherence was still a worthwhile goal. > > “I would argue the fragmentation in media makes a place like Newsweek > even more important,” Mr. Meacham said. “There are not that many > common denominators left.” > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Thu May 6 19:39:20 2010 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 07:09:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] " Pakistan is 'epicenter of Islamic terrorism' " In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <649273.17513.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Taha   He is not alllllllllllll that bad though I did think the "epicentre" piece I posted was rather poorly designed.   Zakaria is obviously professionally street-smart enough to find something or the other to pay for his bills. Pay well enough at that. That includes his making the right noises at the opportune time to be seen as 'more loyal than the king' OR 'more catholic than the pope'.   Post your post, I was looking up his Bio to check whether he is still with Newsweek. Here are some interesting snippets:   - In 2007, Foreign Policy and Prospect magazines named him one of the 100 leading public intellectuals in the world.   - ..... and for one year, was a wine columnist for the webzine Slate.   AND somewhat bearing out my earlier comment on him:   - Zakaria has been described variously as a political liberal, a conservative, or a moderate. This is because he supported President Ronald Reagan in the 1980s, but moved left during the 1990s. He currently self-identifies as a "centrist". George Stephanopoulos said of him in 2003, "He’s so well versed in politics, and he can’t be pigeonholed. I can’t be sure whenever I turn to him where he’s going to be coming from or what he’s going to say."   Kshmendra   --- On Thu, 5/6/10, Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> wrote: From: Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] " Pakistan is 'epicenter of Islamic terrorism' " To: "Kshmendra Kaul" Cc: "sarai list" Date: Thursday, May 6, 2010, 7:05 PM I wonder where will brilliant journalists like Fareed go now??? http://dealbook.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/05/06/with-newsweek-for-sale-an-era-fades/ With Newsweek for Sale, an Era Fades May 6, 2010, 1:56 am For generations, Time and Newsweek fought to define the national news agenda every Monday on the newsstand. Before the Internet, before cable news, before People magazine, what the newsweeklies put on their covers mattered. As the American conversation has become harder to sum up in a single cover, that era seems to be ending. The Washington Post Company announced Wednesday that it would sell Newsweek, raising questions about the future of the newsweekly, first published 77 years ago, Stephanie Clifford reports in The New York Times. Donald E. Graham, chairman and chief executive of the Washington Post Company, said in an interview that the decision was purely economic. “I did not want to do this, but it is a business,” he said. The magazine would lose money in 2010, he said, and “we don’t see a sustained path to profitability for Newsweek.” The move comes as companies have been sloughing off and revamping other mass magazines. TV Guide was sold for $1 to a private equity firm; Businessweek was sold for $5 million in cash to Bloomberg L.P.; and Reader’s Digest was given an editorial overhaul as it slashed circulation. The circulations of Time and Newsweek now stand about where they were in 1966, according to the Audit Bureau of Circulations. “Those magazines had much more stature in those days,” said Edward Kosner, who began at Newsweek in 1963 and was its editor in the late 1970s. “It was really important what was on the cover of Newsweek and what was on the cover of Time because it was what passed for the national press. They helped set the agenda; they helped make reputations.” “The era of mass is over, in some respect,” said Charles Whitaker, research chairman in magazine journalism at the Northwestern University school of journalism. “The newsweeklies, for so long, have tried to be all things to all people, and that’s just not going to cut it in this highly niche, politically polarized, media-stratified environment that we live in today.” Jon Meacham, Newsweek’s editor since 2006, said the announcement was not a surprise. “In the sense that we are all in an existential crisis, it is not what I would call a stunning decision,” he said in an interview. “You would have to have been hopelessly Pollyanna-ish not to have suspected that there were fundamental shifts ahead.” But, he said, “I decline to accept that Newsweek in some form does not have a role to play going forward.” Potential bidders were unclear. Bloomberg L.P., which just bought Businessweek, was not exploring a purchase, said a spokeswoman, Judith Czelusniak. Mr. Meacham said that he was considering putting together investors to buy the magazine, and that he had received voicemail messages from two billionaires after the sale was announced. Newsweek had operating losses of $28.1 million in 2009, 82.5 percent higher than the previous year’s loss of $15.4 million. Its revenue declined 27.2 percent, to $165.5 million in 2009, from $227.4 million in 2008, hurt by diminished advertising and subscription revenue. Started in 1933, Newsweek was acquired by The Washington Post in 1961 after Benjamin C. Bradlee, then a Newsweek editor and later executive editor of The Post, pitched the Post president Philip L. Graham on it. Newsweek under The Post became a political counterweight to the Republicanism of Time under Henry Luce. While Time took a conservative stance on the Vietnam War and American culture, Newsweek ran more youth oriented covers on the war, civil rights and pop culture stars like the Beatles (though “musically they are a near disaster,” the magazine said). Mr. Kosner, the former editor, recalled weekly bouts of “controlled anxiety” over what Time would put on its cover. “On Monday mornings, on the advertising page of The Times, Time and Newsweek took out sort of quarter-page ads that showed the cover and everyone turned to that page on Monday mornings to see what each of them had done,” Mr. Kosner said. Slowly, though, cable news programs grew in number and popularity, and the instant news of the Internet rendered weekly summaries stale almost by definition. And the notion of a cultural common ground that Americans could all share was changing. Newsweek’s circulation was 3.14 million in the first half of 2000. By the second half of 2009, that dropped to 1.97 million. Time’s circulation declined from 4.07 million to 3.33 million in the same period. U.S. News & World Report, the also-ran newsweekly, abandoned its weekly publication schedule in 2008 to become monthly. Meanwhile, The Economist, which offered British-accented reports on business and economic news, and The Week, an unabashedly middle-brow summary of the weekly news that began publishing in the United States in 2001, were on the rise. Both Time and Newsweek were aggressively redesigned. Time, in 2007, changed its publication date from Monday to Friday and added more analysis. Newsweek, in 2009, more or less ceased original reporting about the week’s events, and instead ran essays from columnists like Fareed Zakaria and opinionated analyses. Mr. Whitaker of Northwestern said that editorially, the magazines’ reinventions had not worked well. “I don’t think Time and Newsweek, in this transformation, had enough of a distinct voice to capture the fancy of anyone in this incredibly polarized political environment,” he said. Richard Stengel, the managing editor of Time, took issue with Mr. Whitaker’s characterization. “Our audience is bigger than the cable audiences,” he said. “What we have embraced is point-of-view journalism.” Mr. Stengel said that Time was “very profitable last year, and we will be even more profitable this year.” Both magazines increased their prices: Newsweek now sells for $5.95 on the newsstand, and Time for $4.95. However, subscribers pay only about 50 cents a copy for either magazine. Both also lowered the circulation guaranteed to advertisers: Time guarantees a 3.25 million circulation, and Newsweek just 1.5 million. In 2009, as the advertising slump hit magazines, Newsweek’s ad pages fell 25.9 percent, about average for the industry, while Time’s fared better, dropping 17.4 percent. “The big factor is just the eroding advertising base — the loss of automotive, financial, technology advertising,” said George Janson, managing partner for the media-buying unit GroupM Print. “It’s not going to go back to where it was anytime soon.” And, he said, many advertisers prefer to run ads in niche publications, not broad ones. “There are increasing challenges to being a single magazine company, particularly one that is targeted toward a general-interest area,” said Jonathan A. Knee, who oversaw the sale of Businessweek as senior managing director at Evercore Partners. But Mr. Meacham said that national coherence was still a worthwhile goal. “I would argue the fragmentation in media makes a place like Newsweek even more important,” Mr. Meacham said. “There are not that many common denominators left.” From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Fri May 7 00:58:36 2010 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 20:28:36 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] RAB seizes 10,000 fake NIDs Message-ID: Dear All, This is worrying news for all of us Indians. If people can do this in Bangladesh then can they not do it in India, when, I presume, and many on this list would not hesitate in agreeing with me, that it is generally perceived that we in India have far much more sophisticated systems of copying than any other country in the sub-continent. If we can copy MS software, if we can copy all those so called copyrighted books, if we can copy ration cards and voter ID cards and what not and if we celebrate these so called 'pirate' copy cultures with much ado as an example of shining vibrant democracy then, how long would it be before some people start copying NID's or UID's or these Aaadhar numbers. Is it really worth the while to invest 1,50,000 crore rupees of public money on this exercise? We the people of India were told that some of us, who are poor need the help of government and for that all of us have to give our most intrinsic part of our individual identities our retina and fingerprints. We agreed. But then the GOI has started this exercise which many people believe is akin to a genocidal exercise in 'eliminating' the poorest of the poor in India. I do not understand why then do we need this Aadhar? I do not understand then who do we need this Aadhar for? I do not understand whether foundational logic of UID has any meaning? I appeal to all the well meaning people on this list to please actively think, debate and critically analyze and reflect on the foundational logic of Aadhar? Does Nilekani and his team have any moral standing to continue in office? Is this not a straight transfer of public funds to private coffers? Are people of India not taken on a ride with this national ID number business? Warm regards Taha http://www.bdnews24.com/details.php?id=160406&cid=2 RAB seizes 10,000 fake NIDs Dhaka, May 6 (bdnews24.com) – RAB have seized large numbers of fake NID cards and unregistered SIM cards from a market in the capital and have arrested three people. A team of Rapid Action Battalion-3 raided two shops in Sundarban market, located at Gulistan on Wednesday night and recovered about 10,000 fake national identity cards, 2,310 SIM cards belonging to different mobile operators, assistant director MD Rajib Al Masud told bdnews24.com. The elite force also seized 12,000 photographs collected for the use in the SIM cards. The arrested are Nur Mohammad Khan, Nazrul Islam Mridha and Mahmudul Hasan Mridha. Masud claimed that the gang had been involved with registering SIM cards and fake ID cards and photographs for a long time. He said they had come to know about the scam whilst calling up the numbers they obtained when investigating crimes. They could not find any similarity between the users of the phones on the one hand and the identities given in the registration papers on the other – a matter which has caused the police great problems to their investigations, the official said. Legal action will be taken against the arrested people, he added. From yasir.media at gmail.com Fri May 7 01:48:21 2010 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?eWFzaXIgftmK2Kcg2LPYsQ==?=) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 01:18:21 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] "Fear grips Pakistani-Americans" In-Reply-To: <49877.20095.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <49877.20095.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The root cause is the presence of US+NATO right next door. madressah reform sounds a little out of place at this time. best On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 3:53 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > Unlike some on this List, it is good to see that at least some Pakistanis > are perceptive enough to identify and honest enough to admit to one of the > critical aspects that has globally made Pakistan and it's people the > propagators of terrorism; intolerance towards others; and consequently the > object of suspicions. > > The article from DAWN (Pakistan) says at one place: > > quote..... > Mr Siddiqui, another Pakistani-American who only gave his last name, said > that Pakistan needed to “deal with the root cause” of terrorism. > > He suggested massive reform of the education system, which should include > “revision of textbooks that preach hate against other religions, closure of > all those madressahs that indulge in hate-mongering and more money for the > right type of education”. > ...... unquote > > Kshmendra > > > > "Fear grips Pakistani-Americans" > > By Anwar Iqbal > Wednesday, 05 May, 2010 > > WASHINGTON: A Pakistani-American girl, only 12, refused to go to school on > Tuesday, saying she fears other students will ask her questions about the > suspect held in New York for a failed attempt to bomb Times Square. > > Another girl, 11, went to school when her mother persuaded her to but the > mother had to go back to school during the lunch break to counsel her. > > A 53-year old man throttled his laughter at a dinner in a Virginia > restaurant as a US television channel identified the suspect as a > Pakistani-American. “That’s it. We are cooked,” he remarked. > > “Sad, very sad,” said Maleeha Lodhi, a former Pakistani ambassador to the > US and Britain who is now working on a book in Washington. “It will hurt all > Pakistanis, particularly those living in the United States.” > > The Pakistani American Public Affairs Committee condemned the Times Square > attempted bomb plot and appreciated the efforts of the US enforcement > agencies for saving hundreds of lives. > > “PAKPAC is shocked and saddened to learn that the prime suspect is of > Pakistani heritage,” said a statement issued in Washington. > > “This individual or any accomplice should be tried and punished under > American judicial system. Whether this is an act of a lone individual or a > group, it harms everyone and benefits no one.” > > As a community, Pakistani-Americans have “zero tolerance for such acts as > they damage and disrupt the way of life of all Americans”. > > PAKPAC also welcomed the full cooperation offered by the Pakistani > government. > > America’s largest Muslim civil liberties and advocacy organisation, CAIR > held a special news conference in Washington to condemn the bombing attempt. > > CAIR leaders assured other Americans that Muslims living in America were as > “peace loving as any other group” and stood ready to assist the > administration’s efforts to root out terrorism. > > These immediate reactions in and around the US capital reflect the fears > and trepidations of the Pakistani and Muslim communities in North America as > they brace themselves for possible repercussions of the involvement of yet > another Pakistani in an alleged terror plot. > > Raza Jafri recalled walking near the White House a day after 9/11 when two > men stopped him and his wife and shouted: “Terrorists, terrorists. Arrest > them.” > > The first thing he did was to ask his wife not to wear Pakistani dress in > public until it was safe to do so. “It can get worse now,” he said. > > At a religious gathering in Springfield Virginia, Imam Wali prayed that > “all those who are giving a bad name to Islam and Pakistan may be shown the > right path.” > > Muhammad Younas Ansari of Lahore asked his Pakistani-American friends, “why > are you so unhappy here? I have never heard of Indian or Bangladeshi Muslims > being involved in such activities, why?” > > One of his friends thought that some Pakistanis living in America suffered > from a major cultural shock. “No matter how unhappy a Pakistani says he is > in America, he does not want to go back,” said the friend. > > “The Pakistanis enjoy the benefits of living in America. Love earning > dollars. Love the prosperity that the dollar brings. They love showing off > their dollars when they go to Pakistan. Yet, they never tire of criticising > America. They think Pakistan is a paradise but all are afraid of returning > home.” > > Hamza Muhammad of Falls Church, Virginia, noted that the entire Pakistani > society shared the blame for allowing religious extremists and fanatics to > function. “They never tire of condemning the extremists but also never take > any practical step to purge them,” he observed. > > “How should we, living in America contribute to the fight against > terrorism?” asked Tahira Mussarat Hussain, a Maryland resident. > > “We are against fanaticism but our voices are not heard. We want the whole > world to know that we oppose all messages of hate.” > > Mr Siddiqui, another Pakistani-American who only gave his last name, said > that Pakistan needed to “deal with the root cause” of terrorism. > > He suggested massive reform of the education system, which should include > “revision of textbooks that preach hate against other religions, closure of > all those madressahs that indulge in hate-mongering and more money for the > right type of education”. > > > http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/international/fear-grips-pakistaniamericans-550 > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From yasir.media at gmail.com Fri May 7 02:01:16 2010 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?eWFzaXIgftmK2Kcg2LPYsQ==?=) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 01:31:16 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] " Pakistan is 'epicenter of Islamic terrorism' " In-Reply-To: <982630.78730.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <982630.78730.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Its a good question, how to stop the "Islamic terrorism" funded funded by old Zbignew against the Soviet Union and which does not seem to be stopping, even when though they are long gone. and its not madrassas :D it is funding. and people need other things to do, besides watching out for nato drone attacks. best On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 4:09 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > " Pakistan is 'epicenter of Islamic terrorism' " > > May 5, 2010 > > (Editor's note: Fareed Zakaria is an author and foreign affairs analyst who > hosts "Fareed Zakaria GPS" on CNN U.S. on Sundays at 10 a.m. and 1 p.m. ET > and CNN International at 2 and 10 p.m. Central European Time / 5 p.m. Abu > Dhabi / 9 p.m. Hong Kong.) > > New York (CNN) -- The suspect in the Times Square bombing attempt was > caught as he was seeking to flee to Pakistan, a nation that analyst Fareed > Zakaria calls the "epicenter of Islamic terrorism." > > "It's worth noting that even the terrorism that's often attributed to the > war in Afghanistan tends to come out of Pakistan, to be planned by > Pakistanis, to be funded from Pakistan or in some other way to be traced to > Pakistan," said Zakaria. He added that Pakistan's connection with terrorist > groups goes back decades and has often been encouraged by that nation's > military for strategic reasons. > > Faisal Shahzad, a 30-year-old naturalized citizen of Pakistani descent, had > recently been trained in bomb making in Pakistan's Waziristan province, > according to a federal complaint filed in court Tuesday. CNN reported > Tuesday that Faisal Shahzad's father is a retired vice-marshal in the > Pakistani Air Force. > > Shahzad was arrested around 11:45 p.m. ET Monday at New York's John F. > Kennedy International Airport just before he was to fly to Islamabad, > Pakistan, by way of Dubai. > Zakaria, author and host of CNN's "Fareed Zakaria GPS," spoke to CNN on > Tuesday. Here is an edited transcript: > > CNN: Based on what we know so far, what lessons can be learned from this > incident? > > Fareed Zakaria: This does not seem to be part of a larger and more > organized effort to penetrate the United States. That doesn't mean such > efforts are not under way....it does make you realize just how open we are > as a country and how open we are as a society. There is always a level of > vulnerability that comes from being an open society and this guy, Mr. > Shahzad obviously took advantage of that openness. > > CNN: Apparently he traveled to Pakistan on a number of occasions. Does that > signal that Pakistan isn't vigilant enough about terrorism? > > Zakaria: Well it certainly signals something that we have known for a > while, which is that Pakistan is the epicenter of Islamic terrorism. ... The > British government has estimated that something like 80 percent of the > terror threats that they receive have a Pakistani connection. > > So there's no question that Pakistan has a terrorism problem. It has > radical groups within the country that have the ability to recruit people > and have access to resources that makes for a very combustible mixture. > > It should remind us that even when looking at the war in Afghanistan, > ultimately the most important place where jihadis are being trained and > recruited is not in Afghanistan but in Pakistan. And there's no other part > of the world where you have quite the same concentration of manpower, > resources and ideology all feeding on each other. > > CNN: What feeds the ideology that drives the terror effort? > > Zakaria: Pakistan has been conducive to this kind of jihadis for a number > of reasons. For the last three or four decades, the Pakistani government, > the Pakistani military has supported, funded many of these groups in a bid > to maintain influence in Afghanistan, in a bid to maintain an asymmetrical > capacity against India -- in other words, to try to destabilize India rather > cheaply through these militant groups rather than frontally through its > army. > > So it has found it useful to have these militant groups and to support > them. It has always assumed that these groups will not attack Pakistanis and > therefore was not a threat to Pakistan itself. And to a large extent that's > true, these groups by and large have attacked people in Afghanistan, India, > in the West but not in Pakistan. But that is changing, because these groups > are so intermingled and often sufficiently ideological, and also because the > Pakistani military is beginning to take them on. > > But fundamentally the reason this has gone on is that there has been a > policy of the Pakistani state and particularly the Pakistani military, to > encourage these groups, to fund them, to ignore their most pernicious > activities. And some of it goes back even further than four decades. In the > 1965 war against India, the Pakistanis used Islamic jihadis > > And the great hope now is that finally the Pakistani government is getting > serious about this. Frankly it remains a hope. > > CNN: Why do you say that it's only a hope? > > Zakaria: Over the last few years, it appears that the Pakistani government > has begun to understand that these groups all meld together, that they are a > threat to a stable and viable modern Pakistani state. But when I talk about > the Pakistani government you have to realize that there are different > elements in it. > > The Pakistani civilian government really does understand the danger that > Islamic terrorism poses to Pakistan, but the civilian government in Pakistan > appears quite powerless. Most power lies with the military. > > The military in Pakistan has a somewhat more complex attitude. It does > believe that these militants have gone too far. It does believe that it has > to take on the militants. And it has actually battled them quite bravely > over the last few years. > > CNN: So what's the reason for thinking the military supports militant > groups? > > Zakaria: It still holds within it the view that at the end of the day, the > United States will leave the region and that they will have to live in a > neighborhood which will have a very powerful India and an Afghanistan that > is potentially a client state of India's -- and that in order to combat this > Indian domination, they need to maintain their asymmetrical capabilities, > their militant groups. > > It is interesting to note that Ahmed Rashid, who may be the most respected > Pakistani journalist, has reported on the way in which Pakistani government > has thwarted and put obstacles in the way of any kind of talks between the > Afghan government and the Taliban. > > The message it has sent to the Afghan government is very clear. If you want > to have any negotiations with the Taliban, you have to understand that since > we are the critical intermediary -- since the Taliban leadership all lives > in Pakistan -- the Pakistani military's terms to the Afghan government are, > we want you to push back on Indian influence in Afghanistan, we want you to > shut down Indian consulates in various Afghan cities. > > In other words, the Pakistani government is still obsessed with the idea of > an Indian domination of the region, and they're using their influence with > the Taliban to try to counter Indian influence. This is the old game that > the Pakistanis have played. > > That's what makes me skeptical that there's been a true strategic > revolution in Pakistan... There are still people who believe that there are > good terrorists and bad terrorists, and some you can work with to further > Pakistan's goals. > > CNN: In the attempted car bombing in Times Square and the Christmas Day > attempted bombing, you have two failed plots that don't appear to be highly > sophisticated. Does that tell us anything about the terror groups? > > Zakaria: At some level, that tells you about the weakness of the terror > groups. You do not have highly organized terrorist groups with great > resources and capacity that are able to plan spectacular acts of terrorism > the way they were in the 1990s and on 9/11. > > What you have now are more isolated, disorganized lone rangers and while > they're obviously very worrying and one has to be extremely vigilant, it is > also at some level a sign of the weakness of an organization like al Qaeda > that it is not able to do the kind of terrorist attacks it used to. > > To be sure, it's important to be very vigilant and make sure you have > groups like al Qaeda on the run. But I don't know that in a free society, > you will ever be able to prevent an individual with no background in > terrorism who's broken no laws and is radicalized from attempting to make > some kind of trouble. > > > http://edition.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/05/05/zakaria.pakistan.terror/index.html?hpt=T2 > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From javedmasoo at gmail.com Fri May 7 08:55:19 2010 From: javedmasoo at gmail.com (Javed) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 08:55:19 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Army Major caught spying for Pak Message-ID: This is really embarrasing after Ms. Gupta's disaster in Pakistan. ----- Army Major caught spying for Pak, tip-off came from US New Delhi: Around the time last month when the Ministry of External Affairs (MEA) was alerted about the possibility of one of their officers being involved in espionage, another sensitive counter-intelligence operation involving the Ministry of Defence (MoD) was in progress. For over two weeks now, top Government sources say, an Army Major has been kept in "safe custody" of the Military Intelligence (MI). The officer -- posted in the Andaman and Nicobar Islands -- is alleged to have passed on classified information to Pakistan. The first tip-off in what could develop into another espionage scandal, according to sources, came from American authorities. Suspicious internet traffic first came to the notice of American intelligence agencies when intercepts showed a user in Andaman and Nicobar Islands had dispatched a picture of a serving Indian Brigadier, who was attending a training programme in the US, to Pakistan. Indian agencies quickly zeroed in on the officer and a quiet operation was planned to call him to New Delhi. Sources say the officer pleaded ignorance of the traffic from his computer to Pakistan saying it could have been generated by some virus or unknown software. However, suspicion persisted since the Major's computer had been recently formatted and cleaned of all contents. An early forensic examination done in New Delhi revealed the dispatch of classsified military information, some of which should not have been in the officer's possession. The hard disk of the officer's computer has since been sent by military authorities to a Hyderabad laboratory for accessing the erased contents. "I do not have any information yet. I will have to find the details and then can get back to you," Army spokesperson Col S Om Singh said when contacted for a reaction. Both Defence Minister A.K. Antony and Home Minister P. Chidambaram are learnt to be aware of the developments in the case, given the serious implications involved. Source: Indian Express From colorfreaker at gmail.com Fri May 7 11:28:55 2010 From: colorfreaker at gmail.com (sushmita kashyap) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 11:28:55 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] PRESS RELEASE May 6, 2010:Demand for Judicial Probe into firing at Mao Gate, Manipur Message-ID: Dear all, Please find below the press release of the emergency meet held by Indian civil society and human rights organisations in Delhi yesterday on the escalating situation in Manipur. Even as I write, more innocent people, esp women and children, are being killed and displaced due to reckless firing of commandos. Last evening, Naga students unions and other civil rights activists held a peaceful protest outside Manipur Bhawan,New Delhi and sang songs while hundreds of policemen patrolled for fear that it might be violent. and yes, it was a peaceful rally. in solidarity, sk *May 6, 2010* *New Delhi * *PRESS RELEASE* *Demand for Judicial Probe into firing at Mao Gate, Manipur* At an emergency press meeting held today at Constitution Club, New Delhi by Indian civil society organisations, those present including Naga MLAs from Manipur urged for peace but agreed that the situation is getting increasingly volatile even as minority communities in Manipur feel presently threatened by the heightened insecurity and historical discrimination. Independent Naga MLAs from Manipur have resigned as they feel their petitions to the Home Ministry have fallen on deaf ears. They are demanding a judicial enquiry on the situation that led to the firing by the Manipur IRB killing at least four persons and injuring several others at Mao Gate on the borders of Manipur today (06/05/10). They said hastening of the Indo-Naga Peace Process to reach an amicable solutaion acceptable to the Nagas is the only way to resolve the present crisis. Members of human rights, civil society and democratic organisations, that included Tapan Bose, Gerneral Secretary of South Asia Forum for Human rights, Kathmandu, Prof Kamal Mitra Chenoy, Jawahar Lal Nehru University, New Delhi, and others spoke at the press conference. While condemning the firing and use of tear gas on Naga people at Mao Gate, Manipur, assembled there to welcome their leader, Mr. Th Muivah to visit his native village and other Naga areas in Manipur. The deployment of large number of security forces at the state borders, the unprovoked destruction of traditional welcome gates by the forces, and the total blockage of transit of all travelers from Nagaland to Manipur have triggered panic and insecurity among the local people and unnecessarily heightened tensions between different communities in the region. The present crisis began with Mr. Muivah’s visit that had the approval of the Government of India (GOI). Soon, however, the illegal action of the Government of Manipur in disallowing the visit created a dangerous situation that directly negated the spirit of the Naga Peace Talks over the last 13 years. Reportedly now the GOI’s Home Ministry has asked the Naga leader to cancel his proposed visit. This kind of flip-flop by the GOI is not going to help the Indo-Naga peace process to progress at all. The same kind of attitude was witnessed in 2001 when the ceasefire between GOI and NSCN (IM) was extended ‘without territorial limits.’ At the core of Manipur’s opposition to the Indo-Naga Peace talks is the demand for integration of all Naga areas into one administrative unit. However, the promise of integrating all Naga areas dates back to 1964 Agreement between the Federal Government of Nagaland and the GOI. The same promise was made again in the 1975 Shillong Accord between GOI and Underground Nagas. The speakers called upon lifting of the blockade of transport of goods and people from the Imphal valley to the hills and at the Nagaland-Manipur border that had caused great hardships to ordinary people. Everyone present in today’s press conference felt the only way to deescalate the tensions is to speed up the Naga peace process and bring about an honourable and acceptable solution to this long-existing issue. Else the volatile situation in Manipur might erupt in serious violence and damage the hill-valley relations beyond repair. Speakers at the press conference urged the Prime Minister, Dr. Manmohan Singh to work towards achieving an amicable resolution to the Naga Peace Process, something that he promised and hoped. It is imperative that GOI intervenes judiciously to defuse the current situation and allow Mr. Muivah to visit his hometown and other Naga areas in Manipur without any further delay. This will pave the way for a respectable settlement of the Naga issue. The speakers alleged that Okram Ibobi Singh, Chief Minister of Manipur was using the situation to communally polarize the people for his own political gains. They called upon him to desist from using force against Naga peoples and withdraw the cabinet decision barring Mr. Muivah to visit Manipur. The Govt. of Manipur should work together with GOI to settle the Naga issue. Naga MLAs from Manipur had earlier asked the CM to withdraw the illegal and controversial decision of the cabinet disallowing Mr Muivah’s visit. In Delhi, upon not getting an appointment with the central Home Minister or the PM, they have sent in their resignations to the speaker of the Manipur Assembly. They shared a letter they had sent to the speaker in the press conference. The MLAs are: Mr W Morung Makunga, Mr Awungbow Newmai, Mr K Raina, Dr Khashim Ruivah and Mr M Thohreii. ** * * * * -- Sushmita K From chintangirishmodi at gmail.com Fri May 7 12:33:41 2010 From: chintangirishmodi at gmail.com (Chintan) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 12:33:41 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?International_Climate_Champions_20?= =?windows-1252?q?10_=96_Calling_for_Applications?= Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Altaf Makhiawala * ---------------------------------- International Climate Champions 2010 – Calling for Applications* British Council India invites applications for the International Climate Champions (ICC) 2010 programme. This programme is aimed at young people aged between 18 and 23 with an active interest in the Environment and climate change and who wish to take positive action to make a difference in their communities and peer groups. *International Climate Champions* As a British Council *International Climate Champion*, one will raise awareness, address impacts through a project and contribute to the growing international consensus on the need to tackle climate change. We will support with training and guidance, opportunities to meet with decision makers, as well as opportunities to network at local, national and international level but the ideas and time will come from the International Climate Champions. * * *Eligibility* · Should be an Indian citizen · Aged between 18 and 23 (as on 31 May 2010) and · Should have a climate change project idea that could make a lasting impact on the community, nationally or internationally * * *How to Apply?* There are two ways to apply: 1. Online application form 2. Download the application form, fill it and send as an attachment to lcf.projects at in.britishcouncil.org For more information and to apply visit http://www.britishcouncil.org/india-projects-lcf-climatechampions.htm * * *Application Deadline: Saturday, 15 May 2010. * * * From pawan.durani at gmail.com Fri May 7 13:24:16 2010 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 13:24:16 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Tightening of the Noose Message-ID: Some meal for the Sickulars. Source : http://vijayvaani.com/FrmPublicDisplayArticle.aspx?id=1216 Tightening of the Noose Ajay Chrungoo 07 May 2010 [On May 4, BJP spokesperson Tarun Vijay astonished Kashmiri Hindus by arriving in Srinagar and stating that the anger of the Kashmiri [read Muslim] youth needs to be channelised into employment avenues, and that the time had come for a ‘New Kashmir’ led by the youth to lead the state into an era of peace, prosperity and progress. Bringing a message of goodwill from party president Nitin Gadkari, he praised the peace loving common Kashmiris and lauded Kashmiri [Muslim] women for keeping their children away from the path of violence! This at a time when the ruling National Conference is opposing the professional stone-pelting mobs that have taken lives and caused much public damage to property. Undaunted by the reality, the BJP spokesman claimed that in several incidents local Muslims courageously stood with their Kashmiri Hindu brethren, and want Hindus to come back. There was no mention about the armed forces personnel being daily martyred fighting terrorists; nothing about the daily harassments faced by the few Hindus who remain in the Valley; still less about the privations of those languishing in migrant camps in Jammu; and even less about those struggling outside the camps. The article below seeks to give a true picture of the daily life in modern India’s most blighted state – Editor] THE evil guiding the government policy on internally displaced Kashmiri Hindus has to be fathomed and faced in its stark nakedness. On January 21, 2010, the Government of Jammu and Kashmir, Service Selection Board, brought out the Advertisement Notice for 81 posts, supposed to be filled as a part of the employment package for 3000 ‘Kashmiri Migrants’ declared by the Prime Minister of India. The Notice published in the local news papers also included the proforma of the ‘Agreement’ to be signed by the applicant Kashmiri ‘migrant’ in order to be appointed after getting selected for the particular post. The format of this agreement is revealing: “...The executioner has been appointed on probation as …… in the…… Department …… subject to execution of this Agreement and inter-alia on the explicit condition that this appointment as such shall subsist only so long as he serves in the Kashmir Valley; and Whereas, that the appointee shall be considered for regularization on the basis of performance and satisfactory completion of period of probation in accordance with afore mentioned rules and Whereas, that the appointee agrees to serve in Kashmir Valley and will at no stage opt or seek for transfer outside Kashmir Valley; and Whereas, that the appointee agrees that in case he migrates again from Kashmir Valley at any stage for any reasons whatsoever, he will stand automatically terminated from the services and shall have no claim against any post under the State; and Whereas, if the appointee willfully neglects or refuses to perform duty in Kashmir Valley the appointing authority shall immediately terminate the service; and Whereas, the appointee will at no stage seek to opt for transfer outside the Kashmir Valley. Now, therefore I accept the said terms and conditions of appointment...” For any Kashmir Hindu, what is being said in this agreement, brazenly and between the words and lines, should not be difficult to understand. But there are some willing amongst the Kashmiri Hindus to give such an undertaking only to get the job. Studies conducted on the behaviour of victims of genocidal processes clearly tell us that victims of genocide cultivate a fatal wishful thinking. They always want to believe that the worst is already over. Or that what has already happened is the climax and the world in which they are living and the government which is at the helm will not allow worse to happen. The victims have a suicidal naïveté of reading each step taken by the perpetrators to tighten the genocidal noose around them as a concession. A small sample of contemporary empirical evidence reproduced below will help us to measure the depth of the evil enshrined in the text of the ‘Agreement’ reproduced above. The Kashmiri Pandit Sangarsh Samiti, an organization of Kashmiri Hindus still living in Kashmir Valley, sent an open letter to the Prime Minister of India on November 16, 2009 as well as the Chief Minister of Jammu and Kashmir state, as also to the various Muslim leaders of the Valley. The letter states, “On 15th November, 2009, two of our members went to Bhairav Ghat, Chattabal, at Srinagar, to take some pictures of the temple ruins so that its fate could be settled with the concerned authorities. But the members of the Majority Community who had encroached the temple land abstained them from taking pictures and used unparliamentary language against the Kashmiri Pandits and their religious places. They started the slogans like ‘Jis tarah humne tumhare mandiroan ko jalaya hai vaise hi tum logon ko jalayenge, aur kisi ko pata bhi nahi chalega’. The way we have burnt your temples, in the same way we will burn you and no one will know about you. ‘Yahan sirf Islam chalega’. Only Islam will prevail here. "India ko lagta hai ki tum logon ko vapas layega, jo bi aaye ga mara jayega, hum log phir se gun uthayenge’. India thinks that they can bring Kashmiri Pandits back to Valley, whosoever comes will die, we will again raise arms against you. The mob there even manhandled the members of KPSS and they had to leave the place. Even they could not file an FIR against the mob due to the life threat given by these hooligans belonging to a particular community... KPSS strongly condemns the act and appeals to the separatist leadership to look into the matter and reply back within a stipulated time so that when at one hand they recommend the return of Kashmiri Pandits to the Valley then why on the other hand their men are thirsty for KP blood... KPSS requests the State and Central administration to re-think about their proposal to bring back the Kashmiri Pandits to the Valley, instead register the fresh lot of migrants who will leave the Valley in coming days if the situation is not taken care of in due course of time... KPSS also appeals to the international community to take the matter seriously and ensure that all necessary steps are taken to safeguard the Kashmiri Pandits in the Valley.” This appeal by an organisation of the Hindus still living in Valley is revealing given the fact that it involves grave risks. - The state government recently gave the numbers of Kashmiri Hindus living in the Valley on the floor of the Assembly. It put the number of Kashmiri Hindus living in Valley just above 800 families, and the actual number of persons below 4000. The figures given by the State Government are much higher than the figures which various surveys conducted by Kashmiri Hindus living in Valley have underlined. These independent surveys have put the number of total Hindus living in Valley presently well below 3000. - In 1996 when the elected government took over after a prolonged stint of Governor’s rule in the State, the number of Kashmiri Hindus given by the government from time to time was always between 10,000 to 15,000. For political reasons of undermining the gravity of the situation in the Valley, governments at the helm of affairs have always indulged in exaggerating the number of Hindus living in Kashmir. - But if we take the government figures as true, even then, retrospectively the deterioration of the situation cannot be hidden or fudged. The number of Kashmiri Hindus living in the Valley, compared to the government figures of 1996, when the democratic process started, has fallen by more than 60 percent. The number of small entrepreneurs who chose to stay put in the Valley even after the events of 1990 has almost evaporated. The appeal by the Hindu organisation of the Valley to the Prime Minister reveals a dark reality of a continuing genocide. - The state police approached Panun Kashmir office recently to help them in persuading the survivors of Nadimarg massacre to come forward to give witness against the arrested terrorists involved in the massacre. Nadimarg survivors outrightly refused to come forward to give witness. They had very pertinent reasons relating to total lack of faith in the sincerity of the state government and their own security. The reasons they gave are revealing. They said that immediately after the massacre in which 22 Kashmiri Hindus were killed, Shri L.K. Advani visited the place but to their utmost dismay, insisted his security personnel not allow any of the victims to come close to him. One of the victims broke the security cordon and shouted what security assurances can the state government offer when all the policemen living just in the adjacent house refused to come to their rescue while terrorists were making their way into the houses eventually killing 22 persons. They revealed that one of the eyewitnesses was approached by the government officials themselves to withdraw his witness. They said the state government willfully revealed to the public the names of those who had offered themselves as eye witnesses of the massacre, when the same should have been kept strictly confidential. They said when Dr. Farooq Abdullah publicly said that the judge who pronounced the judgment for Afzal Guru needed security, it sent shivers down their spine and they decided against offering any witness. They also asked the reasons for the reluctance of the State government to transfer the case to Jammu or any other part of India. They said they had already paid enough price for staying put in Valley and were no longer ready to pay more price. - Two Hindus from the same Nadimarg village were appointed as laboratory assistants in the migrant teachers cell in Jammu. Subsequently they were promoted as teachers and transferred to Shopian in Kashmir Valley. They joined their new posting in January. After joining they experienced intense harassment at their new place of posting. They approached their officer in charge, who was not only dismissive but also insulting in his behaviour. Feeling totally insecure, the two teachers abandoned the place of their posting and approached the government to adjust them at their previous place of posting in Jammu. They also gave a written consent to retrospectively forego their promotion and the benefits thereof. - A Hindu unmarried girl (name kept secret) was appointed on compassionate grounds under SRO 43 in a government department at Ganderbal after her father, who was working in the Relief Commissioner’s office, passed away. She had to abandon her job after experiencing intense harassment and is now back in Jammu. - Another Hindu girl (name kept secret) was appointed some time back in a government department in Anantnag district. The very first day in office, a Class-4th employee made obscene overtures towards her. She appealed to an elderly employee of the same department for intervention. His behaviour was more obscene and insulting. While the other employees of the department looked helplessly, a clerk of the same department advised her to have ‘nikah’ with him to escape humiliation and harassment. The young lady returned to Jammu and approached a Pandit leader, who has been in recent times canvassing for the return of Kashmiri Hindus to the Valley, to help her. The leader told her that for escaping from such humiliation she will have to give up her job or otherwise she will have to put up with this situation. Two more recent tales are of value in the context of our current discussion. - A Kashmiri Hindu of Kupwara district went to his native place to offer condolences to the family of a Muslim friend who had passed away. The late friend had helped the Kashmiri Hindu during his exile in Jammu. He went to the graveyard where his friend was buried to lay flowers on his grave. Local Muslims accompanying him also offered ‘Nimaz-e-Fatiha’ at the grave of the departed soul. Returning, just outside the graveyard he found children playing marbles (Saz-u-Guti). The boy hitting one marble with the other would say, ‘Kafir Haa Moodh, I have killed the infidel’, whenever he succeeded in hitting the marble on the ground with the marble in his hand. Proceeding now towards the house of his departed friend, the Kashmiri Hindu found children playing hide and seek in the compound. The group seeking the hidden ones was reciting, “Bata Kot, Bata Kot Ratitoaney, Honyi Hund Doad Chyavnavitaney’ (catch, catch the Pandit boy, and make him drink the milk of a bitch). Seeing the discourse communalised to the extent that even children’s play was filled with communal hatred, he returned to Jammu crestfallen. - A Kashmiri Hindu living in the Valley all these years came to attend the marriage of his relative. His relatives were shocked when the minor daughter of the man from Kashmir said in all innocence, ‘Daidiya, Daidiya, Yeti Kyazi Chi Lokchi Naatu, Kasheeri Hai Chi Asi Asaan Baji Naatu’ - ‘Why do we have small mutton pieces here, in Kashmir we have big pieces’ (Pieces of mutton from a lamb are always smaller than pieces of beef!). These very recent tales are revealing. They should make anyone, particularly a Hindu, see the ‘Evil’ deep inside the core. The ‘Agreement’ which Kashmiri Hindu youth have to sign in case they are employed means that they have to accept the social order existing in the Valley, radicalised, communalised and criminalised beyond description, in toto and unconditionally. The agreement, whatever its legal validity, is a proforma of consent for total capitulation. It is also a declaration of voluntarily abandoning all rights and immunities which the constitution offers to any citizen. To have the job, a Kashmiri Hindu has to persevere and put up with any situation in the Valley. The irony of the situation is that all the jobs for which Hindus have to sign the type of ‘Agreement’ shown above, will be financed by the Central Government. The message is clear: any concession to Kashmiri Hindus from the Government of India entails a submission to the social and political order in the state which unleashed the genocide on Kashmiri Hindus and also persisted with its perpetuation. We are witnessing the denial of the genocide as well as its abetment by both the State and Central governments. The ‘Agreement’ by implication alludes that the internal displacement of Hindus was not a necessity and the relief which Hindus have been receiving is basically a burden. Successive State Governments have followed a dictum in their handling of the colossal tragedy of internal displacement of Kashmiri Hindus and that is, “We will do nothing for the migrants which will be an incentive not to return.” This dictum has made the government and the political class block any help to Kashmiri Hindus and pushed the government to enforce and perpetuate destitution amongst Kashmiri Hindus, particularly the youth. We are witnessing a process of making victims of genocide capitulate totally in front of the perpetrator. Internationally reputed scholars and imminent citizens came out with a strong joint statement in commemoration of the Armenian Genocide of 1915. The statement said, “Denial murders the dignity of the survivors and seeks to destroy remembrance of the crime”. The ‘Agreement’ which displaced Kashmiri Hindus have to sign to get a job for survival destroys their dignity and also any process of remembrance of the crimes which were committed on them, and which are being committed on them, and which will be committed against them in the future. Last word: When the Government of India chose to declare a relief and employment package to displaced Kashmiri Hindus, linking it to their return, it was only a declaration of their abandonment. And when Congress spokesman Manish Tiwari said that Kashmiri Pandits were forced out by Jagmohan, and BJP leader Arun Jaitley told his activists in Jammu not to use the word ‘genocide’ for the tragedy which had befallen Kashmiri Hindus, it only signified that the noose of genocidal attrition of Kashmiri Hindus is tightening further. The author is chairman, Panun Kashmir From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Fri May 7 13:34:41 2010 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 01:04:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT In-Reply-To: <000001caed03$56a020e0$03e062a0$@in> Message-ID: <436778.39847.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Bipin   A. I am against the death penalty for anyone for any crime whatsoever. I believe the 'death penalty' is awarded in barbaric societies, and yes, India is still barbaric in many ways.   B. You might disagree on the above. That does not change the opportunity allowed in India for anyone convicted in a crime in a Lower Court to take the matter to a Higher Cour.         Since it is a question of a 'death penalty', Kasab has the right to have his case heard by the Higher Courts right upto the Supreme Court. After that he has the right to appeal to the President for waiver of the 'death penalty'. The Constitution of India provides that right. You cannot compare Civil Law of the Shah Bano case witha 'death penalty' being awarded.         No one can take that right away from Kasab.   Kshmendra    --- On Thu, 5/6/10, Bipin Trivedi wrote: From: Bipin Trivedi Subject: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT To: "sarai-list" Date: Thursday, May 6, 2010, 3:33 PM AS EXPECTED, KASAV RIGHTLY GOT DEATH SENTENCE. Though terrorist's Kasav case was crystal clear, but still we have gone for about 17 months fair trial and proved that how transparent our judicial system is unlike Pakistan. But, after this trial and judgment, he should not allow to appeal in the higher court and should be hanged in public immediately without further judicial procedure. if Indira Gandhi (ex PM) deny to obey court verdict and neglect law and Shah Banu case was revert out of law by parliament than why cannot this? India should show the world that country cannot compromise in integrity and take hard action if required like open public death sentence. Thanks Bipin _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From yasir.media at gmail.com Fri May 7 14:14:25 2010 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?eWFzaXIgftmK2Kcg2LPYsQ==?=) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 13:44:25 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] 140,000 troops in FATA In-Reply-To: <243570.35520.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <243570.35520.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/pakistan/04-azaz-house-attacked-qs-06 From aliens at dataone.in Fri May 7 15:37:40 2010 From: aliens at dataone.in (Bipin Trivedi) Date: Fri, 07 May 2010 15:37:40 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT In-Reply-To: <436778.39847.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <000001caed03$56a020e0$03e062a0$@in> <436778.39847.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000c01caedcd$22793d90$676bb8b0$@in> Dear Kshemendra, Parliament can and has right to make such decision if show will. But, congress cannot show such will, who prolonged even Afsalguru conviction keeping pending for so long for their vote bank politics. Comparison with Shah Bano for the reason of vote bank politics only to appealing minor. Reverting shah Bano verdict is classic example of minor appeasement and the same case with Afsalguru and I am fear for Kasav also same thing might happen. Thanks Bipin From: Kshmendra Kaul [mailto:kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com] Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 1:35 PM To: sarai-list; Bipin Trivedi Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT Dear Bipin A. I am against the death penalty for anyone for any crime whatsoever. I believe the 'death penalty' is awarded in barbaric societies, and yes, India is still barbaric in many ways. B. You might disagree on the above. That does not change the opportunity allowed in India for anyone convicted in a crime in a Lower Court to take the matter to a Higher Cour. Since it is a question of a 'death penalty', Kasab has the right to have his case heard by the Higher Courts right upto the Supreme Court. After that he has the right to appeal to the President for waiver of the 'death penalty'. The Constitution of India provides that right. You cannot compare Civil Law of the Shah Bano case witha 'death penalty' being awarded. No one can take that right away from Kasab. Kshmendra --- On Thu, 5/6/10, Bipin Trivedi wrote: From: Bipin Trivedi Subject: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT To: "sarai-list" Date: Thursday, May 6, 2010, 3:33 PM AS EXPECTED, KASAV RIGHTLY GOT DEATH SENTENCE. Though terrorist's Kasav case was crystal clear, but still we have gone for about 17 months fair trial and proved that how transparent our judicial system is unlike Pakistan. But, after this trial and judgment, he should not allow to appeal in the higher court and should be hanged in public immediately without further judicial procedure. if Indira Gandhi (ex PM) deny to obey court verdict and neglect law and Shah Banu case was revert out of law by parliament than why cannot this? India should show the world that country cannot compromise in integrity and take hard action if required like open public death sentence. Thanks Bipin _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Fri May 7 16:09:59 2010 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 03:39:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT In-Reply-To: <000c01caedcd$22793d90$676bb8b0$@in> Message-ID: <950235.73681.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Bipin   You have missed the central point. The Constitution of India gives that right to Ajmal Kasab and also to Afzal Guru.   FYI Afzal Guru is not the only one who's appeal for waiver of 'death penalty' is pending with the President. And most of the others are Hindus. So stop obsessing about 'appeasement of minorities' in this case.   The Constitution of India is not so petty that it will be changed just because you or someone else or even if millions of Indians want to deny Kasab the tiered rights to Courts and appeal to President.   Bipin, one should not accuse others of behaving like blood-thirsty animals and then become a blood-thirsty animal himself/herself.   Kshmendra     --- On Fri, 5/7/10, Bipin Trivedi wrote: From: Bipin Trivedi Subject: RE: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT To: "'Kshmendra Kaul'" Cc: "sarai-list" Date: Friday, May 7, 2010, 3:37 PM Dear Kshemendra,   Parliament can and has right to make such decision if show will. But, congress cannot show such will, who prolonged even Afsalguru conviction keeping pending for so long for their vote bank politics. Comparison with Shah Bano for the reason of vote bank politics only to appealing minor. Reverting shah Bano verdict is classic example of minor appeasement and the same case with Afsalguru and I am fear for Kasav also same thing might happen.   Thanks Bipin         From: Kshmendra Kaul [mailto:kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com] Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 1:35 PM To: sarai-list; Bipin Trivedi Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT   Dear Bipin   A. I am against the death penalty for anyone for any crime whatsoever. I believe the 'death penalty' is awarded in barbaric societies, and yes, India is still barbaric in many ways.   B. You might disagree on the above. That does not change the opportunity allowed in India for anyone convicted in a crime in a Lower Court to take the matter to a Higher Cour.         Since it is a question of a 'death penalty', Kasab has the right to have his case heard by the Higher Courts right upto the Supreme Court. After that he has the right to appeal to the President for waiver of the 'death penalty'. The Constitution of India provides that right. You cannot compare Civil Law of the Shah Bano case witha 'death penalty' being awarded.         No one can take that right away from Kasab.   Kshmendra      --- On Thu, 5/6/10, Bipin Trivedi wrote:   From: Bipin Trivedi Subject: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT To: "sarai-list" Date: Thursday, May 6, 2010, 3:33 PM AS EXPECTED, KASAV RIGHTLY GOT DEATH SENTENCE.   Though terrorist's Kasav case was crystal clear, but still we have gone for about 17 months fair trial and proved that how transparent our judicial system is unlike Pakistan. But, after this trial and judgment, he should not allow to appeal in the higher court and should be hanged in public immediately without further judicial procedure. if Indira Gandhi (ex PM) deny to obey court verdict and neglect law and Shah Banu case was revert out of law by parliament than why cannot this? India should show the world that country cannot compromise in integrity and take hard action if required like open public death sentence.   Thanks Bipin       _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>   From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Fri May 7 16:32:01 2010 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 04:02:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Doctor from Kashmir tops IAS Message-ID: <508908.85364.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dad killed by ultras, doctor from Kashmir tops IAS Joel Joseph & M Saleem Pandit, TNN, May 7, 2010, 12.38am IST   NEW DELHI/SRINAGAR: He comes from a remote village in Kupwara district of strife-torn Kashmir and studied in a village school. Eight years ago, his father was gunned down by militants. But Dr Shah Faisal, a 26-year-old MBBS, has fought the odds and won. On Thursday, Faisal became the first Kashmiri ever to top the civil services exam. "I don't have words to express how I feel, I am not able to speak. I just wish I was with my family. I am just waiting to hug my mother," Faisal, who came to the capital before the results to "get away from the stress of waiting", told TOI. Even through the elation, Faisal gets emotional at the mention of Kashmir. Describing himself as a victim of conflict, he says, "I have watched the bloodshed in Kashmir very closely. I was devastated when my father Ghulam Rasool Shah was gunned down. It is him that I miss the most today. He used to dote on me and taught me English and maths when I studied in school," he says. In Srinagar, his mother Mubeena Begum, thrilled beyond words, says, "Faisal has made every Kashmiri proud with his hard work and dedication." Her husband, she says, was killed because he refused shelter to militants. Ironically, it was the tragedy that opened a window to the wider world for the family. "After the killing, I shifted from village Sheikh Nar in Lolab Sogam area of Kupwara to Srinagar with my children ^ two sons and a daughter. My elder son Shah Faisal had done his class X from Sogam high school while my two other children were in middle school there. I was a broken woman but never gave up and fought against all odds to bring up my children," says Mubeena, a teacher, like her husband. Faisal, who did his MBBS from Srinagar's Sher-i-Kashmir Medical College, says he was confident of qualifying but never imagined he would be right on top. His mission now is to serve his people in the strife torn area of Kashmir. "I wanted to serve my people and in the role of an IAS officer I would like to reduce the communication gap between the people and the administration. I will give audience to them to hear their problems, cares and worries. I want to bring a change, especially for women and the youth," he says, insisting that he never received any formal training for the UPSC exam. Among his inspirations, Faisal counts an IPS officer from his state. "I was inspired by one Abdul Gani Mir of my area in Kupwara, who passed his IPS in 1994. I have been in touch with him since 2007, when I thought of sitting for the civil services exams," he says. Gani is currently DIG, CID in Jammu and Kashmir Police. Faisal's younger brother Shah Nawaz is also a doctor while his younger sister Talat Shah is a library assistant   http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Dad-killed-by-ultras-doctor-from-Kashmir-tops-IAS/articleshow/5900410.cms   From jeebesh at sarai.net Fri May 7 16:54:28 2010 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 16:54:28 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Supporting Maoists ? Message-ID: dear All, Here is a new notification from Home ministry. Be prepared for an extremely complicated unfolding around what would constitute "supporting". The orbit is becoming larger and it is not just the world out their in the forest. warmly jeebesh Supporting Maoists will invite 10 year jail Friday - May 07, 2010, 08:58am (GMT+5.5) New Delhi (IANS) Those who speak in favour of Maoist guerrillas will face legal action and 10 years imprisonment, the government announced Thursday in a warning to civil society groups who raise voices in favour of Leftwing extremism. "Any person who commits the offence of supporting such a terrorist organisation (like Communist Party of India (CPI)-Maoist) with inter alia intention to further the activities of such terrorist organisations would be liable to be punished with imprisonment for a term not exceeding 10 years or with fine or with both," a home ministry statement said. It said such action would be taken under Section 39 of the Unlawful Activities (Prevention) Act, 1967. The home ministry said the government has noticed that some Maoist leaders were directly contacting certain NGOs and intellectuals to propagate their ideology and "persuade them to take steps (and) support the CPI-Maoist ideology". "General public are informed to be extremely vigilant of the propaganda of CPI-Maoist and not unwittingly become a victim of such propaganda," the statement warned. The Leftwing extremist group and all its front organizations have been designated as terrorist organisations by the government. According to the ministry, the "sole aim" of the CPI-Maoist is to overthrow the Indian state. It "continues to kill innocent civilians including tribals in cold blood and destroy crucial infrastructure like roads, culverts, school buildings, gram panchayat buildings so as to prevent development http://www.indiavision.com/news/article/national/52381/ From peter.ksmtf at gmail.com Fri May 7 18:30:55 2010 From: peter.ksmtf at gmail.com (T Peter) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 18:30:55 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fishermen threaten stir In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Fishermen threaten stir http://www.thehindu.com/2010/05/07/stories/2010050759330500.htm Staff Reporter KOCHI: Fishermen across the country will embark on an agitation demanding better treatment from the Central and State governments. Kerala Swatantra Matsyathozhilali Federation president T. Peter said here on Thursday that fishermen who had a television set or a fan at home had been categorised as above poverty line (APL), thereby denying them the welfare benefits given to below poverty line (BPL) families. “We are not getting our due share of kerosene and diesel because of the apathy of the Central and State governments. But foreign trawlers are getting diesel at a subsidy. The ban on constructing houses near the coast has hit us in a major way,” he said. Attempts were being made to scuttle the trawling ban during monsoon. Traditional fishermen would not allow the ban to be lifted. The proposed Central Bill regulating fishing along the coast would affect small and medium fishermen, while encouraging foreign vessels to exploit our coastal resources. The proposed Kerala Inland Fisheries Bill 2010 too would badly affect fishermen. From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Fri May 7 19:09:22 2010 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 14:39:22 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Lt Col arrested for child pornography Message-ID: What's happening to Indian Army? Lt Col arrested for child pornography NDTV Correspondent, Friday May 7, 2010, Mumbai A serving Army officer, Lieutenant Colonel Jagmohan Balbir Singh, has been arrested in Mumbai for disseminating child pornography over the Internet. Forty two-year-old Singh was arrested by the Cyber Cell in Mumbai on Thursday and will stay in police custody till May 12. Singh allegedly posted and downloaded pornographic photos of foreign children between the ages of 3 and 10 on the internet. The German Federal Bureau spotted the photos on a child pornography site and traced the pictures to India. Interpol was alerted which then passed on the information to India's Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) who passed it onto the Mumbai Crime Branch. The Mumbai police has taken two hard drives from Singh's house as evidence against him. A spokesperson for the Army said Singh has been on study leave, and is currently not attached to any unit. He also confirmed that the Army will apply for bail so that it can deal with Singh's case. Read more at: http://www.ndtv.com/news/india/lt-col-arrested-for-child-pornography-23881.php?cp From pheeta.ram at gmail.com Fri May 7 19:22:26 2010 From: pheeta.ram at gmail.com (Pheeta Ram) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 19:22:26 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Supporting Maoists ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I wonder what happened in that "prominent" university PC visited day before yesterday. The notification has come right after his visit. What infuriated PC so much? On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 4:54 PM, Jeebesh wrote: > dear All, > > Here is a new notification from Home ministry. Be prepared for an > extremely complicated unfolding around what would constitute > "supporting". The orbit is becoming larger and it is not just the > world out their in the forest. > > warmly > jeebesh > > Supporting Maoists will invite 10 year jail > Friday - May 07, 2010, 08:58am (GMT+5.5) > > New Delhi (IANS) Those who speak in favour of Maoist guerrillas will > face legal action and 10 years imprisonment, the government announced > Thursday in a warning to civil society groups who raise voices in > favour of Leftwing extremism. > > "Any person who commits the offence of supporting such a terrorist > organisation (like Communist Party of India (CPI)-Maoist) with inter > alia intention to further the activities of such terrorist > organisations would be liable to be punished with imprisonment for a > term not exceeding 10 years or with fine or with both," a home > ministry statement said. > > It said such action would be taken under Section 39 of the Unlawful > Activities (Prevention) Act, 1967. > > The home ministry said the government has noticed that some Maoist > leaders were directly contacting certain NGOs and intellectuals to > propagate their ideology and "persuade them to take steps (and) > support the CPI-Maoist ideology". > > "General public are informed to be extremely vigilant of the > propaganda of CPI-Maoist and not unwittingly become a victim of such > propaganda," the statement warned. > > The Leftwing extremist group and all its front organizations have been > designated as terrorist organisations by the government. > > According to the ministry, the "sole aim" of the CPI-Maoist is to > overthrow the Indian state. > > It "continues to kill innocent civilians including tribals in cold > blood and destroy crucial infrastructure like roads, culverts, school > buildings, gram panchayat buildings so as to prevent development > > > http://www.indiavision.com/news/article/national/52381/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From geetaseshu at gmail.com Fri May 7 19:30:09 2010 From: geetaseshu at gmail.com (geeta seshu) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 19:30:09 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Supporting Maoists ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: hi...apart from a definition of 'supporting', I've been checking for Sec 39 and the UAPA doesn't even have one! Unless i'm reading the wrong act... Chidambaram is a lawyer, so he can't make such a big mistake....so can some legal expert enlighten us? Geeta On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 7:22 PM, Pheeta Ram wrote: > I wonder what happened in that "prominent" university PC visited day before > yesterday. The notification has come right after his visit. What infuriated > PC so much? > > On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 4:54 PM, Jeebesh wrote: > > > dear All, > > > > Here is a new notification from Home ministry. Be prepared for an > > extremely complicated unfolding around what would constitute > > "supporting". The orbit is becoming larger and it is not just the > > world out their in the forest. > > > > warmly > > jeebesh > > > > Supporting Maoists will invite 10 year jail > > Friday - May 07, 2010, 08:58am (GMT+5.5) > > > > New Delhi (IANS) Those who speak in favour of Maoist guerrillas will > > face legal action and 10 years imprisonment, the government announced > > Thursday in a warning to civil society groups who raise voices in > > favour of Leftwing extremism. > > > > "Any person who commits the offence of supporting such a terrorist > > organisation (like Communist Party of India (CPI)-Maoist) with inter > > alia intention to further the activities of such terrorist > > organisations would be liable to be punished with imprisonment for a > > term not exceeding 10 years or with fine or with both," a home > > ministry statement said. > > > > It said such action would be taken under Section 39 of the Unlawful > > Activities (Prevention) Act, 1967. > > > > The home ministry said the government has noticed that some Maoist > > leaders were directly contacting certain NGOs and intellectuals to > > propagate their ideology and "persuade them to take steps (and) > > support the CPI-Maoist ideology". > > > > "General public are informed to be extremely vigilant of the > > propaganda of CPI-Maoist and not unwittingly become a victim of such > > propaganda," the statement warned. > > > > The Leftwing extremist group and all its front organizations have been > > designated as terrorist organisations by the government. > > > > According to the ministry, the "sole aim" of the CPI-Maoist is to > > overthrow the Indian state. > > > > It "continues to kill innocent civilians including tribals in cold > > blood and destroy crucial infrastructure like roads, culverts, school > > buildings, gram panchayat buildings so as to prevent development > > > > > > http://www.indiavision.com/news/article/national/52381/ > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From chandni_parekh at yahoo.com Fri May 7 22:26:02 2010 From: chandni_parekh at yahoo.com (Chandni Parekh) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 09:56:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] William T. Grant Scholars Program Message-ID: <712477.15733.qm@web54408.mail.re2.yahoo.com> The William T. Grant Scholars Program supports promising early-career researchers from diverse disciplines, who have demonstrated success in conducting high-quality research and are seeking to further develop and broaden their expertise. Candidates are nominated by a supporting institution and must submit five-year research plans that demonstrate creativity, intellectual rigor, and a commitment to continued professional development. Every year, four to six William T. Grant Scholars are selected and each receives $350,000 distributed over a five-year period. For more: http://bit.ly/PxVIi HT: http://twitter.com/letmeknowupdate From yasir.media at gmail.com Fri May 7 22:56:55 2010 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?eWFzaXIgftmK2Kcg2LPYsQ==?=) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 22:26:55 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT In-Reply-To: <000c01caedcd$22793d90$676bb8b0$@in> References: <000001caed03$56a020e0$03e062a0$@in> <436778.39847.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <000c01caedcd$22793d90$676bb8b0$@in> Message-ID: Dear Bipin + Their is a big assumption here. that the muslim groups in India support Kasab. I am shocked to hear this, if this is what you mean____you mean that indian muslims would try to get kasab off on easy terms because he is muslim. I think there may be a mistake: i think many would want to do worse to him. this is another of those very basic points wholly solely being missed. best On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 3:07 PM, Bipin Trivedi wrote: > Dear Kshemendra, > > > > Parliament can and has right to make such decision if show will. But, > congress cannot show such will, who prolonged even Afsalguru conviction > keeping pending for so long for their vote bank politics. Comparison with > Shah Bano for the reason of vote bank politics only to appealing minor. > Reverting shah Bano verdict is classic example of minor appeasement and the > same case with Afsalguru and I am fear for Kasav also same thing might > happen. > > > > Thanks > > Bipin > > > > > > > > > > From: Kshmendra Kaul [mailto:kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com] > > Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 1:35 PM > > To: sarai-list; Bipin Trivedi > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > > > Dear Bipin > > > > A. I am against the death penalty for anyone for any crime whatsoever. I > believe the 'death penalty' is awarded in barbaric societies, and yes, > India > is still barbaric in many ways. > > > > B. You might disagree on the above. That does not change the opportunity > allowed in India for anyone convicted in a crime in a Lower Court to take > the matter to a Higher Cour. > > > > Since it is a question of a 'death penalty', Kasab has the right to > have his case heard by the Higher Courts right upto the Supreme Court. > After > that he has the right to appeal to the President for waiver of the 'death > penalty'. The Constitution of India provides that right. You cannot compare > Civil Law of the Shah Bano case witha 'death penalty' being awarded. > > > > No one can take that right away from Kasab. > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > --- On Thu, 5/6/10, Bipin Trivedi wrote: > > > > From: Bipin Trivedi > > Subject: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > To: "sarai-list" > > Date: Thursday, May 6, 2010, 3:33 PM > > AS EXPECTED, KASAV RIGHTLY GOT DEATH SENTENCE. > > > > Though terrorist's Kasav case was crystal clear, but still we have gone for > > about 17 months fair trial and proved that how transparent our judicial > > system is unlike Pakistan. But, after this trial and judgment, he should > not > > allow to appeal in the higher court and should be hanged in public > > immediately without further judicial procedure. if Indira Gandhi (ex PM) > > deny to obey court verdict and neglect law and Shah Banu case was revert > out > > of law by parliament than why cannot this? India should show the world that > > country cannot compromise in integrity and take hard action if required > like > > open public death sentence. > > > > Thanks > > Bipin > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe > in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sat May 8 00:01:53 2010 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 00:01:53 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Kasab and Mumbai Police Message-ID: *Kasab and Mumbai Police Link - http://kashmir-timemachine.blogspot.com/2010/05/kasab-and-mumbai-police.html * What could be happening. Is it raining bullets? Are people running away? These thoughts were going in my mind at a height of 24,000 feet in a Jet Aiways plane while I was on way to Mumbai on the afternoon of November 27, 2008 (Thursday). Barely a week before this terror strike, I was in megalopolis in connection with the Malegaon blast investigation which had shown extremists belonging to a little known Hindu group having done this act. For me things were definitely not the same as I was missing Hemant Karkare and Ashok Kamte - two officers whom I had met during my trip. Little did I know that I will be writing their obituary a week later. (May their soul rest in peace). As the plane touched the runway, I switched on my phone only to see that there were some messages. Immediately upon arrival along with a colleague of mine, I met another fellow scribe and we were quick enough to exchange our notes. One person had been picked up by Mumbai police (God give solace to Tukaram Omble's soul) but no one was sure of the identity. After a calls by my fellow guy from the fraternity, we came across the name as Ajmal Amir Amin Mir alias "Kasai" which later turned out to b Ajmal Amir Kasab. After necessary formalities of stories over a period of following days, the picture was clear that Kasab was the modern face of terrorism whose face will haunt several families for years to come. He has been sentenced to Death and rightly so. But my issue is not Kasab, because from the word go of the trial was to end in the verdict -- to be hanged till dead, what intrigues me is the role of Mumbai's stake holders (read Shiv Sena and MNS). I believe their must be too many rat holes where these stake holders must have stashed themselves. (Interested people may read ( http://kashmir-timemachine.blogspot.com/2009/01/w-hen-i-was-thinking-of-going-to-bed.html ) What I want to focus is on lies of Mumbai Police in the case for implicating Fahim Ansari and Sabauddin Ahmed. Tough they are being tried in other cases in Uttar Pradesh, why were they implicated in this case? And for few actors, Kasab proved to be a platform to jump into limelight. Rakesh Maria, the then Joint Commissioner of Crime and Public Prosecutor Ujjwal Nikam, emerged as self-styled heroes in this field. All riding on the piggy of hard work of extremely intelligent officials of Intelligence Bureau who spent days and nights tracking every movement. While they were toiling to get all the clinching evidence to nail Pakistan, Maria and his gang were busy conceiving a mischievous plan of hogging the limelight and were helped by then Commissioner of Police Hassan Gafoor, who had hid himself in a hall rather than being in a control room of police. The case went to crime branch and within no time, two people were picked from Uttar Pradesh jail -- Fahim Ansari and Sabbauddin Ahmed -- I jumped out of my bed because these arrests were made by February 2008 and I had, through my contacts, procured their interrogation report where they had said that they wanted to carry out reconnaissance of Mumbai but could not manage. What is their role in this attack, was a constant question that I was asking myself. Even the charge sheet filed by the Mumbai Crime Branch against these two was nothing but lies lies and lies. The only truth in the voluminous charge sheet was the intercepts made by IB officials and other details provided by the US investigators. A concerted campaign was launched by Maria and his gang by their so-called leaks to media. (The leaks were bigger than Bhopal gas tragedy with only difference that in Bhopal human lives were lost but here the brains of lakhs of Indians were washed). Maria would have carried through with his bunch of lies had not David Headley arrest been made by the FBI and subsequently his confession of carrying out all reconnaissance activities for Lashker-e-Taiba terror group. Maria did not know where to hide his face after Headley slapped on his investigation from thousands of miles in Chicago. Ujjwal Nikam, a lawyer, who represented the state pretended as if Maria's truth was the final verdict about Ansari and Ahmed. He, no less than a clown, stood in front of media and projected as if he had just turned the tables in favour of Indians. Nikkam Saheb, wake up...the court gave death to Kasab whom the entire world had watched spraying bullets at innocents. Nikkam could manage to make the media follow but not the Honourable Judge of the court who lambasted him for lies on Ansari and Ahmed. Even a rookie lawyer could have ensured death penalty for Kasab then what is the big deal about you. Any Answers. Himanshu Roy: God I feel like laughing when he appeared in a white dress and denim before the media today and started narrating the proceedings inside the court. An officer, who is generally perceived as a page three hopper in Mumbai circles, was talking about Kasab and investigations and blah blah blah till he came to the HIS MASTERS VOICE. "The investigations done by Maria ji......." enough for me to switch off the television set. Rather shut the "stud Roy". So friends this is Mumbai Police and Nikkam's role in the entire investigations....God bless this country and help us get rid of such rats. Amen From aliens at dataone.in Sat May 8 10:54:06 2010 From: aliens at dataone.in (Bipin Trivedi) Date: Sat, 08 May 2010 10:54:06 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT In-Reply-To: <950235.73681.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <000c01caedcd$22793d90$676bb8b0$@in> <950235.73681.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003601caee6e$c4ff0120$4efd0360$@in> Dear Kshemendra, I have not at all missed the central point. Politician go out of law for their selfish motto, but not for terror conviction. What's the reason? Can you tell? Just because of political mileage, nothing else. It's real problem that people like you did not understand this. Because they were punished as terrorists activity and so the special case and not because of their religion. One must separate terrorists conviction with other conviction. Due to our this terror soft approach, we are unable to fight terror to the extent what actually we should do. I have never mentioned that Afsalguru should be given priority for punishment because he belongs to minority, but due to terrorist act conviction only. Whoever involved in this and even in the future any religion should be treated as same for terror conviction. Afsalguru case is clear minor appeasement for not executing his conviction and goes wrong message to terror groups and encourage them further. Legal experts clearly says there is no such law to go with queue for death sentence matter. Earlier such execution of death sentence carried out, out of turn in the couple of occasions. Constitution of India (SC) has already convicted death sentence in 2006, this cabinet for strange reason delaying it. So, this is clear minor appeasement case Dear Kshemendra. This is where congress lack will to fight terrorism. You personally oppose death sentence is altogether different issue. Our constitution permits death sentence, so you argument at present is irrelevant of blood thirsty animal from Indian point of view. It is unfortunate that people like you oppose death sentence for the people who is blood thirsty for hundreds or thousands of people. You want to save the life of one person who engaged in blood bath and take lives of 100/1000 of people!!! India is barbaric in your view by adopting death sentence than those nation like US, China, Pakistan and many more are also barbaric for adopting this law. This is about 70% of world population is barbaric according to you! Thanks Bipin From: Kshmendra Kaul [mailto:kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com] Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 4:10 PM To: Bipin Trivedi Cc: sarai-list Subject: RE: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT Dear Bipin   You have missed the central point. The Constitution of India gives that right to Ajmal Kasab and also to Afzal Guru.   FYI Afzal Guru is not the only one who's appeal for waiver of 'death penalty' is pending with the President. And most of the others are Hindus. So stop obsessing about 'appeasement of minorities' in this case.   The Constitution of India is not so petty that it will be changed just because you or someone else or even if millions of Indians want to deny Kasab the tiered rights to Courts and appeal to President.   Bipin, one should not accuse others of behaving like blood-thirsty animals and then become a blood-thirsty animal himself/herself.   Kshmendra     --- On Fri, 5/7/10, Bipin Trivedi wrote: From: Bipin Trivedi Subject: RE: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT To: "'Kshmendra Kaul'" Cc: "sarai-list" Date: Friday, May 7, 2010, 3:37 PM Dear Kshemendra,   Parliament can and has right to make such decision if show will. But, congress cannot show such will, who prolonged even Afsalguru conviction keeping pending for so long for their vote bank politics. Comparison with Shah Bano for the reason of vote bank politics only to appealing minor. Reverting shah Bano verdict is classic example of minor appeasement and the same case with Afsalguru and I am fear for Kasav also same thing might happen.   Thanks Bipin         From: Kshmendra Kaul [mailto:kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com] Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 1:35 PM To: sarai-list; Bipin Trivedi Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT   Dear Bipin   A. I am against the death penalty for anyone for any crime whatsoever. I believe the 'death penalty' is awarded in barbaric societies, and yes, India is still barbaric in many ways.   B. You might disagree on the above. That does not change the opportunity allowed in India for anyone convicted in a crime in a Lower Court to take the matter to a Higher Cour.         Since it is a question of a 'death penalty', Kasab has the right to have his case heard by the Higher Courts right upto the Supreme Court. After that he has the right to appeal to the President for waiver of the 'death penalty'. The Constitution of India provides that right. You cannot compare Civil Law of the Shah Bano case witha 'death penalty' being awarded.         No one can take that right away from Kasab.   Kshmendra      --- On Thu, 5/6/10, Bipin Trivedi wrote:   From: Bipin Trivedi Subject: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT To: "sarai-list" Date: Thursday, May 6, 2010, 3:33 PM AS EXPECTED, KASAV RIGHTLY GOT DEATH SENTENCE.   Though terrorist's Kasav case was crystal clear, but still we have gone for about 17 months fair trial and proved that how transparent our judicial system is unlike Pakistan. But, after this trial and judgment, he should not allow to appeal in the higher court and should be hanged in public immediately without further judicial procedure. if Indira Gandhi (ex PM) deny to obey court verdict and neglect law and Shah Banu case was revert out of law by parliament than why cannot this? India should show the world that country cannot compromise in integrity and take hard action if required like open public death sentence.   Thanks Bipin       _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>   From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Sat May 8 11:09:50 2010 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 11:09:50 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Lt Col arrested for child pornography In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <721303.18070.qm@web94704.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Good job FB german, Seriously, had the CBI, or net police taken so much interest in India porn and MMS, this would be a healthier place. Reg, lt Col, well Power Corrupts, abolute.......... Sexual abouse and army have an ag old marriage. In delhi for example, on grounds of interrogaton, two korean girls were drugged, sewsled in an appartment and sexually abused. When will we stop pardoning such cases happening tpo hapless Indians? Service,en shall always support their colleagues, it seems. ________________________________ From: Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> To: Sarai Reader-list Sent: Fri, 7 May, 2010 7:09:22 PM Subject: [Reader-list] Lt Col arrested for child pornography What's happening to Indian Army? Lt Col arrested for child pornography NDTV Correspondent, Friday May 7, 2010, Mumbai A serving Army officer, Lieutenant Colonel Jagmohan Balbir Singh, has been arrested in Mumbai for disseminating child pornography over the Internet. Forty two-year-old Singh was arrested by the Cyber Cell in Mumbai on Thursday and will stay in police custody till May 12. Singh allegedly posted and downloaded pornographic photos of foreign children between the ages of 3 and 10 on the internet. The German Federal Bureau spotted the photos on a child pornography site and traced the pictures to India. Interpol was alerted which then passed on the information to India's Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) who passed it onto the Mumbai Crime Branch. The Mumbai police has taken two hard drives from Singh's house as evidence against him. A spokesperson for the Army said Singh has been on study leave, and is currently not attached to any unit. He also confirmed that the Army will apply for bail so that it can deal with Singh's case. Read more at: http://www.ndtv.com/news/india/lt-col-arrested-for-child-pornography-23881.php?cp _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From aliens at dataone.in Sat May 8 11:16:53 2010 From: aliens at dataone.in (Bipin Trivedi) Date: Sat, 08 May 2010 11:16:53 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT Message-ID: <004601caee71$e7a5ac30$b6f10490$@in> Dear Yasir, I have never mentioned such statement that muslim groups in India support Sasav. Even, after his death sentence many Muslim organization welcome this judgment and I really appreciate this. If such assumption in Pakistan is there is myth only nothing else. I am blaming our rotten politician for not showing will to execute it speedily after even SC judgment. Thanks Bipin -----Original Message----- From: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net [mailto:reader-list-bounces at sarai.net] On Behalf Of yasir ~?? ?? Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 10:57 PM To: Sarai Reader-list Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT Dear Bipin + Their is a big assumption here. that the muslim groups in India support Kasab. I am shocked to hear this, if this is what you mean____you mean that indian muslims would try to get kasab off on easy terms because he is muslim. I think there may be a mistake: i think many would want to do worse to him. this is another of those very basic points wholly solely being missed. best On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 3:07 PM, Bipin Trivedi wrote: > Dear Kshemendra, > > > > Parliament can and has right to make such decision if show will. But, > congress cannot show such will, who prolonged even Afsalguru conviction > keeping pending for so long for their vote bank politics. Comparison with > Shah Bano for the reason of vote bank politics only to appealing minor. > Reverting shah Bano verdict is classic example of minor appeasement and the > same case with Afsalguru and I am fear for Kasav also same thing might > happen. > > > > Thanks > > Bipin > > > > > > > > > > From: Kshmendra Kaul [mailto:kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com] > > Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 1:35 PM > > To: sarai-list; Bipin Trivedi > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > > > Dear Bipin > > > > A. I am against the death penalty for anyone for any crime whatsoever. I > believe the 'death penalty' is awarded in barbaric societies, and yes, > India > is still barbaric in many ways. > > > > B. You might disagree on the above. That does not change the opportunity > allowed in India for anyone convicted in a crime in a Lower Court to take > the matter to a Higher Cour. > > > > Since it is a question of a 'death penalty', Kasab has the right to > have his case heard by the Higher Courts right upto the Supreme Court. > After > that he has the right to appeal to the President for waiver of the 'death > penalty'. The Constitution of India provides that right. You cannot compare > Civil Law of the Shah Bano case witha 'death penalty' being awarded. > > > > No one can take that right away from Kasab. > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > --- On Thu, 5/6/10, Bipin Trivedi wrote: > > > > From: Bipin Trivedi > > Subject: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > To: "sarai-list" > > Date: Thursday, May 6, 2010, 3:33 PM > > AS EXPECTED, KASAV RIGHTLY GOT DEATH SENTENCE. > > > > Though terrorist's Kasav case was crystal clear, but still we have gone for > > about 17 months fair trial and proved that how transparent our judicial > > system is unlike Pakistan. But, after this trial and judgment, he should > not > > allow to appeal in the higher court and should be hanged in public > > immediately without further judicial procedure. if Indira Gandhi (ex PM) > > deny to obey court verdict and neglect law and Shah Banu case was revert > out > > of law by parliament than why cannot this? India should show the world that > > country cannot compromise in integrity and take hard action if required > like > > open public death sentence. > > > > Thanks > > Bipin > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe > in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kaksanjay at gmail.com Sat May 8 11:52:45 2010 From: kaksanjay at gmail.com (Sanjay Kak) Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 11:52:45 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] "Oppose Draconian UAPA" Message-ID: Here is a Press Release in connection with the latest from the Ministry of Home Affairs Best Sanjay Kak ----------------------- Press release Coordination of Democratic Rights Organizations, CDRO Oppose Draconian UAPA 7th May 2010 The most recent alert (regarding use of section 39, UAPA) issued by the government in so called ‘public interest’ has brought out in the open what had so far been implicit in its anti-Maoist policy. The purpose of the circular is to intimidate voices of protests and dissent over government policies, particularly Operation Green Hunt. The statement criminalizes dissent and makes a mockery of the spirit of critical inquiry which is at the foundation of a strong democracy. As members of civil rights groups we consider the statement as an attack on civil society and reminiscent of the Emergency era. The contents of the circular show complete disregard of the concerns expressed by Supreme Court when it rebuked the Chhattisgarh government for labelling human rights activists and legitimate activities as ‘sympathetic’ to ‘naxals’, or the more recent concerns expressed by the Chief Justice over the government’s war against its own people. It is not surprising that the government has also chosen to ignore the ‘sympathetic’ and undoubtedly saner voices in its own ranks, which have a different perspective on addressing the problem. We condemn the government’s threat to use extraordinary draconian laws such as UAPA to constrain freedom of expression and free and informed debate on issues which are of crucial importance for the country. We further condemn the government for targeting political and civil rights groups who are doing no more than carrying out their democratic responsibility of ensuring equal protection of the Constitution to all sections of society. Signed by: Association for Democratic Rights (AFDR, Punjab); Andhra Pradesh Civil Liberties Committee (APCLC, Andhra Pradesh); Association for Protection of Democratic Rights (APDR, West Bengal); Bandi Mukti Committee (West Bengal); Committee for Protection of Democratic Rights (CPDR, Nagpur); Coordination of Human Rights (COHR, Manipur); Campaign for Peace and Democracy in Manipur (CPDM, Delhi); Human Rights Forum (HRF, Andhra Pradesh); Lokshahi Hak Sangathana (LHS, Maharashtra); Manab Adhikar Sangram Samiti (MASS, Assam); Naga People’s Movement for Human Rights (NPMHR); Organization for Protection of Democratic Rights (OPDR, Andhra Pradesh); People’s Committee for Human Rights (PCHR, Jammu and Kashmir); People’s Democratic Forum (PDF, Karnataka); People’s Union for Civil Liberties (PUCL, National); PUCL (Chhattisgarh); PUCL (Jharkhand); PUCL (Nagpur); PUCL (Rajasthan); People’s Union for Democratic Rights (PUDR, Delhi); People’s Union for Human Rights (PUHR, Haryana) From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sat May 8 12:58:32 2010 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 12:58:32 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Communal 'Greater Kashmir' newspaper EXPOSED Message-ID: *KASHMIRI PANDITS ARE NOT KASHMIRIS?* *THE LETTER TO EDITOR by Ravinder Kaul THAT 'GREATER KASHMIR' DID NOT PUBLISH* Dear Sir, It is a matter of great pride for all the residents of J&K State in general and all Kashmiris in particular that a son of the soil has topped the IAS examination. It is an unprecedented feat and keeping in view the circumstances in which Dr. Faesal has realised this dream, one is filled with a feeling of great admiration for the young doctor. Your news report highlighting this achievement (May 7, 2010) adds: "Pertinently, the Kashmiri IAS/IPS officers include Muhammad Shafi Pandith (1968), former chairman PSC; Iqbal Khanday (1978), principal secretary APD; Khursheed Ahmad Ganai (1982), principal secretary to Chief Minister; Asgar Samoon (1993), secretary CAPD; Javed Geelani (1994), on deputation to CBI; Abdul Gani Mir (1994), DIG, CID, Kashmir; Imtiyaz Parray (2008), presently undergoing training at National Police Academy, Hyderabad." This should have actually read "Pertinently, the Kashmiri Muslim IAS/IPS officers.....". I am sure you are aware of some Kashmiri Pandit IAS/IPS officers too, whose names could have been included in the list. Or if you do not consider them as Kashmiris then one can have no grievance at all. Will you please publish this letter in your 'Letters to Editor' column so as put the record straight. Yours Sincerely, Ravinder Kaul From rahulpandita at yahoo.com Sat May 8 13:29:24 2010 From: rahulpandita at yahoo.com (Rahul Pandita) Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 00:59:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] "Oppose Draconian UAPA" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <109187.9346.qm@web30603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Like Che said, if you distribute food to the poor, you are dubbed a saint. So, we have a Kripalu Maharaj calling people in U.P. to his ashram for a steel tumbler and a towel. To manage the crowds, his securitymen throw water aka Delhi Police style on the crowd resulting in stampede. But he is still a saint. But if you ask why the poor don't have food then you are a communist. Or, as it happens now, a Maoist. That is not all. If you a Bhagat Singh photo on your desk, you'll be put in under the UAPA. If you have a book on mining on your shelf, you'll be in under the UAPA. If you raise questions over why 60 lakh people need to be displaced for CWG in delhi, you'll be in under the UAPA. If you go visit a Naxal ideologue in the prison in the capacity of a journalist, you'll be in under the UAPA. These are dark times, my dear friends. And as that old woman says in Sanjay's film: "What can one say about the dark times." Rahul Pandita www.sanitysucks.blogspot.com Mobile: 9818088664 --- On Sat, 8/5/10, Sanjay Kak wrote: > From: Sanjay Kak > Subject: [Reader-list] "Oppose Draconian UAPA" > To: "Sarai Reader List" > Date: Saturday, 8 May, 2010, 11:52 > Here is a Press Release in connection > with the latest from the > Ministry of Home Affairs > Best > > Sanjay Kak > > ----------------------- > > Press release > > Coordination of Democratic Rights Organizations, CDRO > > Oppose Draconian UAPA > > 7th May 2010 > > The most recent alert (regarding use of section 39, UAPA) > issued by > the government in so called ‘public interest’ has > brought out in the > open what had so far been implicit in its anti-Maoist > policy. The > purpose of the circular is to intimidate voices of protests > and > dissent over government policies, particularly Operation > Green Hunt. > The statement criminalizes dissent and makes a mockery of > the spirit > of critical inquiry which is at the foundation of a strong > democracy. > As members of civil rights groups we consider the statement > as an > attack on civil society and reminiscent of the Emergency > era. > > The contents of the circular show complete disregard of the > concerns > expressed by Supreme Court when it rebuked the Chhattisgarh > government > for labelling human rights activists and legitimate > activities as > ‘sympathetic’ to ‘naxals’, or the more recent > concerns expressed by > the Chief Justice over the government’s war against its > own people. It > is not surprising that the government has also chosen to > ignore the > ‘sympathetic’ and undoubtedly saner voices in its own > ranks, which > have a different perspective on addressing the problem. > > We condemn the government’s threat to use extraordinary > draconian laws > such as UAPA to constrain freedom of expression and free > and informed > debate on issues which are of crucial importance for the > country. We > further condemn the government for targeting political and > civil > rights groups who are doing no more than carrying out their > democratic > responsibility of ensuring equal protection of the > Constitution to all > sections of society. > > Signed by: > > Association for Democratic Rights (AFDR, Punjab); Andhra > Pradesh Civil > Liberties Committee (APCLC, Andhra Pradesh); Association > for > Protection of Democratic Rights (APDR, West Bengal); Bandi > Mukti > Committee (West Bengal); Committee for Protection of > Democratic Rights > (CPDR, Nagpur); Coordination of Human Rights (COHR, > Manipur); Campaign > for Peace and Democracy in Manipur (CPDM, Delhi); Human > Rights Forum > (HRF, Andhra Pradesh); Lokshahi Hak Sangathana (LHS, > Maharashtra); > Manab Adhikar Sangram Samiti (MASS, Assam); Naga People’s > Movement for > Human Rights (NPMHR); Organization for Protection of > Democratic Rights > (OPDR, Andhra Pradesh); People’s Committee for Human > Rights (PCHR, > Jammu and Kashmir); People’s Democratic Forum (PDF, > Karnataka); > People’s Union for Civil Liberties (PUCL, National); > PUCL > (Chhattisgarh); PUCL (Jharkhand); PUCL (Nagpur); PUCL > (Rajasthan); > People’s Union for Democratic Rights (PUDR, Delhi); > People’s Union for > Human Rights (PUHR, Haryana) > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sat May 8 15:04:55 2010 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 02:34:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Bhook Tehzeeb ka Aadab Bhula dati ha. (Video) Message-ID: <795647.21955.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> A Facebook comment on this Video:   " Listen to the rousing and hard hitting speech by a young Pakistani girl. Change names of places and look at comparable situations and it is equally applicable to India "   http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=1277823311015   Also at:   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dF3_JdVXm_Y   Kshmendra   From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sat May 8 16:07:11 2010 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 03:37:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?q?=22Faisal_Shahzad=E2=80=99s_anti-American?= =?utf-8?q?ism=22_=28by_Pervez_Hoodbhoy=29?= Message-ID: <47203.55320.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> This article is by Pervez Hoodbhoy, one of the finest voices from Pakistan.   The case of Faisal Shahzad is incidental to the essence of what Pervez Hoodbhoy seeks to convey.   Some extracts from the article:   -  As anti-US lava spews from the fiery volcanoes of Pakistan’s private television channels and newspapers, a collective psychosis grips the country’s youth.   - Faisal Shahzad ...... typifies the young Pakistani who grew up in the shadow of Ziaul Haq’s hate-based education curriculum. ........... at some point the toxic schooling and media tutoring must have kicked in. - Ideas considered extreme a decade ago are now mainstream.   - ........  anti-US sentiment rises in proportion to aid received. Say a good word about the US, and you are labelled as its agent. From what TV anchors had to say about it, Kerry-Lugar’s $7.5bn may well have been money that the US wants to steal from Pakistan rather than give to it. - Drone strikes are a common but false explanation. Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi implicitly justifies the Times Square bombing as retaliation but this does not bear up. Drone attacks have killed some innocents but they have devastated militant operations in Waziristan while causing far less collateral damage than Pakistan Army operations. - ..... the cities of Hanoi and Haiphong were carpet-bombed by B-52 bombers and Vietnam’s jungles were defoliated with Agent Orange. Yet, Vietnam never developed visceral feelings like those in Pakistan. - Finding truer reasons requires deeper digging. In part, Pakistan displays the resentment of a client state for its paymaster. US-Pakistan relations are transactional today but the master-client relationship is older. Indeed, Pakistan chose this path because confronting India over Kashmir demanded big defence budgets. In the 1960s, Pakistan entered into the Seato and Cento military pacts, and was proud to be called ‘America’s most allied ally’. The Pakistan Army became the most powerful, well-equipped and well-organised institution in the country. This also put Pakistan on the external dole.  -  Pakistan has long teetered between being a failed state and a failing state. The rich won’t pay taxes? Little electricity? Contaminated drinking water? Kashmir unsolved? Blame it on the Americans.   - ......... anti-Americanism plays squarely into the hands of Islamic militants. They vigorously promote the notion of an Islam-West war when, in fact, they actually wage armed struggle to remake society. They will keep fighting this war even if America were to miraculously evaporate. Created by poverty, a war culture and the macabre manipulations of Pakistan’s intelligence services, they seek a total transformation of society. This means eliminating music, art, entertainment and all manifestations of modernity. Side goals include chasing away the few surviving native Christians, Sikhs and Hindus. - ......  it would be wrong to scorn the humanitarian impulse behind US assistance in times of desperation. Shall we write off massive US assistance to Pakistan at the time of the earthquake of 2005? Or to tsunami-affected countries in 2004?  - ..... the US ....... treats its Muslim citizens infinitely better than we treat non-Muslims in Pakistan.  -  More frenzied anti-Americanism will produce more Faisal Shahzads.   Kshmendra     "Faisal Shahzad’s anti-Americanism" By Pervez Hoodbhoy Saturday, 08 May, 2010   The man who tried to set off a car bomb in Times Square was a Pakistani. Why is this unsurprising? Because when you hold a burning match to a gasoline tank, the laws of chemistry demand combustion. As anti-US lava spews from the fiery volcanoes of Pakistan’s private television channels and newspapers, a collective psychosis grips the country’s youth. Murderous intent follows with the conviction that the US is responsible for all ills, both in Pakistan and the world of Islam. Faisal Shahzad, with designer sunglasses and an MBA degree from the University of Bridgeport, acquired that murderous intent. Living his formative years in Pakistan, he typifies the young Pakistani who grew up in the shadow of Ziaul Haq’s hate-based education curriculum. The son of a retired air vice-marshal, life was easy as was getting US citizenship subsequently. But at some point the toxic schooling and media tutoring must have kicked in. There was guilt as he saw pictures of Gaza’s dead children and related them to US support for Israel. Internet browsing or, perhaps, the local mosque steered him towards the idea of an Islamic caliphate. This solution to the world’s problems would require, of course, the US to be destroyed. Hence Shahzad’s self-confessed trip to Waziristan. Ideas considered extreme a decade ago are now mainstream. A private survey carried out by a European embassy based in Islamabad found that only four per cent of Pakistanis polled speak well of America; 96 per cent against. Although Pakistan and the US are formal allies, in the public perception the US has ousted India as Pakistan’s number one enemy. Remarkably, anti-US sentiment rises in proportion to aid received. Say a good word about the US, and you are labelled as its agent. From what TV anchors had to say about it, Kerry-Lugar’s $7.5bn may well have been money that the US wants to steal from Pakistan rather than give to it. Pakistan is not the only country where America is unpopular. In pursuit of its self-interest, the US has waged illegal wars, bribed, bullied and overthrown governments, supported tyrants and undermined movements for progressive change. Paradoxically America is disliked more in Pakistan than in countries which have born the direct brunt of its attacks — Cuba, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan. Why? Drone strikes are a common but false explanation. Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi implicitly justifies the Times Square bombing as retaliation but this does not bear up. Drone attacks have killed some innocents but they have devastated militant operations in Waziristan while causing far less collateral damage than Pakistan Army operations. On the other hand, the cities of Hanoi and Haiphong were carpet-bombed by B-52 bombers and Vietnam’s jungles were defoliated with Agent Orange. Yet, Vietnam never developed visceral feelings like those in Pakistan. Finding truer reasons requires deeper digging. In part, Pakistan displays the resentment of a client state for its paymaster. US-Pakistan relations are transactional today but the master-client relationship is older. Indeed, Pakistan chose this path because confronting India over Kashmir demanded big defence budgets. In the 1960s, Pakistan entered into the Seato and Cento military pacts, and was proud to be called ‘America’s most allied ally’. The Pakistan Army became the most powerful, well-equipped and well-organised institution in the country. This also put Pakistan on the external dole. The Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in 1979, even as it brought in profits, deepened the dependence. Paid by the US to create the anti-Soviet jihadist apparatus, Pakistan is now being paid again to fight that war’s blowback. Pakistan then entered George W. Bush’s war on terror to enhance America’s security — a fact that further hurt its self-esteem. It is a separate matter that Pakistan fights that very war for its own survival and must call upon its army to protect the population from throat-slitting fanatics. Passing the buck is equally fundamental to Pakistan’s anti-Americanism. It is in human nature to blame others for one’s own failures. Pakistan has long teetered between being a failed state and a failing state. The rich won’t pay taxes? Little electricity? Contaminated drinking water? Kashmir unsolved? Blame it on the Americans. This phenomenon exists elsewhere too. For example, one saw Hamid Karzai threatening to join the Taliban and lashing out against Americans because they (probably correctly) suggested he committed electoral fraud. Tragically for Pakistan, anti-Americanism plays squarely into the hands of Islamic militants. They vigorously promote the notion of an Islam-West war when, in fact, they actually wage armed struggle to remake society. They will keep fighting this war even if America were to miraculously evaporate. Created by poverty, a war culture and the macabre manipulations of Pakistan’s intelligence services, they seek a total transformation of society. This means eliminating music, art, entertainment and all manifestations of modernity. Side goals include chasing away the few surviving native Christians, Sikhs and Hindus. At a time when the country needs clarity of thought to successfully fight extremism, simple bipolar explanations are inadequate. The moralistic question ‘Is America good or bad?’ is futile. There is little doubt that the US has committed acts of aggression, as in Iraq, and maintains the world’s largest military machine. We know that it will make a deal with the Taliban if perceived to be in its self-interest — even if that means abandoning the Afghans to bloodthirsty fanatics. Yet, it would be wrong to scorn the humanitarian impulse behind US assistance in times of desperation. Shall we write off massive US assistance to Pakistan at the time of the earthquake of 2005? Or to tsunami-affected countries in 2004? In truth, the US is no more selfish or altruistic than any other country. And it treats its Muslim citizens infinitely better than we treat non-Muslims in Pakistan. Instead of pronouncing moral judgments on everything and anything, we Pakistanis need to reaffirm what is truly important for our people: peace, economic justice, good governance, rule of law, accountability of rulers, women’s rights and rationality in human affairs. Washington must be resisted, but only when it seeks to drag Pakistan away from these goals. More frenzied anti-Americanism will produce more Faisal Shahzads. The writer teaches at Quaid-i-Azam University, Islamabad.   http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/editorial/faisal-shahzads-antiamericanism-850   From lalitambardar at hotmail.com Sat May 8 16:11:21 2010 From: lalitambardar at hotmail.com (Lalit Ambardar) Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 10:41:21 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] " Pakistan is 'epicenter of Islamic terrorism' " In-Reply-To: References: <982630.78730.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com>, Message-ID: One can not but sympathise with the innocent Pakistani masses who are now falling prey to the menace of pan Islamism inspired terror that was essentially fostered by Pakistan post Soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan to ‘inflict thousand cuts on India’. We are the victims of jihadi terror having suffered ethnic cleansing in Kashmir two decades ago. So we understand the agony of ordinary Pakistanis. The visuals of tented refuge camps that came up overnight post military intervention in Swat & other areas against the Islamists was reminiscent of our own plight when we were forced to flee our homes & hearths & rendered refugees in our own country because we professed a different faith & were declared ‘kafir’s by those who wanted only ‘Nizame Mustafa’ in Kashmir. Your agony is same as that of mine .The only difference being that you are a victim of your own ‘creation’. Therefore, the solutions have to come from within Pakistan. Terrorists are terrorists- they can’t be ‘good’ or ‘bad’. Pakistan is at war with its own prodigies who were launched to fight anti India Jihad in Kashmir & have gone now out of its control targeting rest of the world too. That well meaning Pakistanis aren’t oblivious of the ominous consequences is evident from what Maj. Gen.(retd) Mahmud Ali Durrani (till recently National Security Advisor to PM Gilani) writes in ‘aman ki asha’(The Times of India/The Jang initiative) series (TOI/May6,2010/page no.2)… “As a Pakistani. I believe the primary threat to my country today is from terrorists. We are fighting for control, not only for our territory, but our very soul. Alas many Pakistanis are in state of denial, focussing on the ‘differences’ between one set of terrorists and another…..It is time to stop believing in the expression ‘one man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter……..” Rgds all LA --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > From: yasir.media at gmail.com > Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 01:31:16 +0500 > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] " Pakistan is 'epicenter of Islamic terrorism' " > > Its a good question, how to stop the "Islamic terrorism" funded funded by > old Zbignew against the Soviet Union and which does not seem to be stopping, > even when though they are long gone. > > and its not madrassas :D it is funding. > and people need other things to do, besides watching out for nato drone > attacks. > > best > > > On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 4:09 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > > " Pakistan is 'epicenter of Islamic terrorism' " > > > > May 5, 2010 > > > > (Editor's note: Fareed Zakaria is an author and foreign affairs analyst who > > hosts "Fareed Zakaria GPS" on CNN U.S. on Sundays at 10 a.m. and 1 p.m. ET > > and CNN International at 2 and 10 p.m. Central European Time / 5 p.m. Abu > > Dhabi / 9 p.m. Hong Kong.) > > > > New York (CNN) -- The suspect in the Times Square bombing attempt was > > caught as he was seeking to flee to Pakistan, a nation that analyst Fareed > > Zakaria calls the "epicenter of Islamic terrorism." > > > > "It's worth noting that even the terrorism that's often attributed to the > > war in Afghanistan tends to come out of Pakistan, to be planned by > > Pakistanis, to be funded from Pakistan or in some other way to be traced to > > Pakistan," said Zakaria. He added that Pakistan's connection with terrorist > > groups goes back decades and has often been encouraged by that nation's > > military for strategic reasons. > > > > Faisal Shahzad, a 30-year-old naturalized citizen of Pakistani descent, had > > recently been trained in bomb making in Pakistan's Waziristan province, > > according to a federal complaint filed in court Tuesday. CNN reported > > Tuesday that Faisal Shahzad's father is a retired vice-marshal in the > > Pakistani Air Force. > > > > Shahzad was arrested around 11:45 p.m. ET Monday at New York's John F. > > Kennedy International Airport just before he was to fly to Islamabad, > > Pakistan, by way of Dubai. > > Zakaria, author and host of CNN's "Fareed Zakaria GPS," spoke to CNN on > > Tuesday. Here is an edited transcript: > > > > CNN: Based on what we know so far, what lessons can be learned from this > > incident? > > > > Fareed Zakaria: This does not seem to be part of a larger and more > > organized effort to penetrate the United States. That doesn't mean such > > efforts are not under way....it does make you realize just how open we are > > as a country and how open we are as a society. There is always a level of > > vulnerability that comes from being an open society and this guy, Mr. > > Shahzad obviously took advantage of that openness. > > > > CNN: Apparently he traveled to Pakistan on a number of occasions. Does that > > signal that Pakistan isn't vigilant enough about terrorism? > > > > Zakaria: Well it certainly signals something that we have known for a > > while, which is that Pakistan is the epicenter of Islamic terrorism. ... The > > British government has estimated that something like 80 percent of the > > terror threats that they receive have a Pakistani connection. > > > > So there's no question that Pakistan has a terrorism problem. It has > > radical groups within the country that have the ability to recruit people > > and have access to resources that makes for a very combustible mixture. > > > > It should remind us that even when looking at the war in Afghanistan, > > ultimately the most important place where jihadis are being trained and > > recruited is not in Afghanistan but in Pakistan. And there's no other part > > of the world where you have quite the same concentration of manpower, > > resources and ideology all feeding on each other. > > > > CNN: What feeds the ideology that drives the terror effort? > > > > Zakaria: Pakistan has been conducive to this kind of jihadis for a number > > of reasons. For the last three or four decades, the Pakistani government, > > the Pakistani military has supported, funded many of these groups in a bid > > to maintain influence in Afghanistan, in a bid to maintain an asymmetrical > > capacity against India -- in other words, to try to destabilize India rather > > cheaply through these militant groups rather than frontally through its > > army. > > > > So it has found it useful to have these militant groups and to support > > them. It has always assumed that these groups will not attack Pakistanis and > > therefore was not a threat to Pakistan itself. And to a large extent that's > > true, these groups by and large have attacked people in Afghanistan, India, > > in the West but not in Pakistan. But that is changing, because these groups > > are so intermingled and often sufficiently ideological, and also because the > > Pakistani military is beginning to take them on. > > > > But fundamentally the reason this has gone on is that there has been a > > policy of the Pakistani state and particularly the Pakistani military, to > > encourage these groups, to fund them, to ignore their most pernicious > > activities. And some of it goes back even further than four decades. In the > > 1965 war against India, the Pakistanis used Islamic jihadis > > > > And the great hope now is that finally the Pakistani government is getting > > serious about this. Frankly it remains a hope. > > > > CNN: Why do you say that it's only a hope? > > > > Zakaria: Over the last few years, it appears that the Pakistani government > > has begun to understand that these groups all meld together, that they are a > > threat to a stable and viable modern Pakistani state. But when I talk about > > the Pakistani government you have to realize that there are different > > elements in it. > > > > The Pakistani civilian government really does understand the danger that > > Islamic terrorism poses to Pakistan, but the civilian government in Pakistan > > appears quite powerless. Most power lies with the military. > > > > The military in Pakistan has a somewhat more complex attitude. It does > > believe that these militants have gone too far. It does believe that it has > > to take on the militants. And it has actually battled them quite bravely > > over the last few years. > > > > CNN: So what's the reason for thinking the military supports militant > > groups? > > > > Zakaria: It still holds within it the view that at the end of the day, the > > United States will leave the region and that they will have to live in a > > neighborhood which will have a very powerful India and an Afghanistan that > > is potentially a client state of India's -- and that in order to combat this > > Indian domination, they need to maintain their asymmetrical capabilities, > > their militant groups. > > > > It is interesting to note that Ahmed Rashid, who may be the most respected > > Pakistani journalist, has reported on the way in which Pakistani government > > has thwarted and put obstacles in the way of any kind of talks between the > > Afghan government and the Taliban. > > > > The message it has sent to the Afghan government is very clear. If you want > > to have any negotiations with the Taliban, you have to understand that since > > we are the critical intermediary -- since the Taliban leadership all lives > > in Pakistan -- the Pakistani military's terms to the Afghan government are, > > we want you to push back on Indian influence in Afghanistan, we want you to > > shut down Indian consulates in various Afghan cities. > > > > In other words, the Pakistani government is still obsessed with the idea of > > an Indian domination of the region, and they're using their influence with > > the Taliban to try to counter Indian influence. This is the old game that > > the Pakistanis have played. > > > > That's what makes me skeptical that there's been a true strategic > > revolution in Pakistan... There are still people who believe that there are > > good terrorists and bad terrorists, and some you can work with to further > > Pakistan's goals. > > > > CNN: In the attempted car bombing in Times Square and the Christmas Day > > attempted bombing, you have two failed plots that don't appear to be highly > > sophisticated. Does that tell us anything about the terror groups? > > > > Zakaria: At some level, that tells you about the weakness of the terror > > groups. You do not have highly organized terrorist groups with great > > resources and capacity that are able to plan spectacular acts of terrorism > > the way they were in the 1990s and on 9/11. > > > > What you have now are more isolated, disorganized lone rangers and while > > they're obviously very worrying and one has to be extremely vigilant, it is > > also at some level a sign of the weakness of an organization like al Qaeda > > that it is not able to do the kind of terrorist attacks it used to. > > > > To be sure, it's important to be very vigilant and make sure you have > > groups like al Qaeda on the run. But I don't know that in a free society, > > you will ever be able to prevent an individual with no background in > > terrorism who's broken no laws and is radicalized from attempting to make > > some kind of trouble. > > > > > > http://edition.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/05/05/zakaria.pakistan.terror/index.html?hpt=T2 > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________________________________ Catch the latest in the world of fashion http://lifestyle.in.msn.com/ From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sat May 8 16:28:29 2010 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 03:58:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] "Jhansi Jan Suvidha Kendra: Improving governance" Message-ID: <320587.13274.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> "Jhansi Jan Suvidha Kendra: Improving governance" By Rahul Anand   Jhansi Jan Suvidha Kendra (JJSK) comes as a pleasant surprise to those who have been thinking that public grievance redressal systems are highly incompetent or non-existing in India.   JJSK is a quick and reliable telephone based e-governance initiative which has resulted in an easily accessible platform for addressing public grievances anytime of the day, throughout the year!   As soon as the complainant calls on the toll free number 1077, the grievances are recorded automatically on an audio file and stored in a software program. The complainant gets a Unique Grievance Number (UGN) and the concerned officers are intimated on their mobile phones via SMS instantly.   Grievances are categorised as one of A/B/C according to the severity and the time within which they should be resolved. Various reports are generated by the software for weekly monitoring and the quality of redressal/disposal is finally confirmed by the District Magistrate. Reports are continuously uploaded on the website and the concerned person can check the status of the complaint anytime by just calling JJSK.   JJSK‘s attitude towards complaints lies in their line “Grievances are jewels to be treasured.”   Here’s hoping other districts of the country take a leaf out of JJSK’s approach, and help realize a dream of good governance through better use of technology.   JJSK’s website (mostly in Hindi): http://www.jhansi.nic.in/jjsk.htm   http://www.thebetterindia.com/1388/jhansi-jan-suvidha-kendra-improving-governance/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+TheBetterIndia+%28The+Better+India%29&utm_content=Yahoo%21+Mail     From aliens at dataone.in Sat May 8 17:06:41 2010 From: aliens at dataone.in (Bipin Trivedi) Date: Sat, 08 May 2010 17:06:41 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [SPAM] - Lt Col arrested for child pornography In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001401caeea2$baefc9b0$30cf5d10$@in> Such army man are shame for India. His case also should be done on fast track and should be hanged immediately if proven guilty. -----Original Message----- From: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net [mailto:reader-list-bounces at sarai.net] On Behalf Of Taha Mehmood Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 7:09 PM To: Sarai Reader-list Subject: [SPAM] - [Reader-list] Lt Col arrested for child pornography What's happening to Indian Army? Lt Col arrested for child pornography NDTV Correspondent, Friday May 7, 2010, Mumbai A serving Army officer, Lieutenant Colonel Jagmohan Balbir Singh, has been arrested in Mumbai for disseminating child pornography over the Internet. Forty two-year-old Singh was arrested by the Cyber Cell in Mumbai on Thursday and will stay in police custody till May 12. Singh allegedly posted and downloaded pornographic photos of foreign children between the ages of 3 and 10 on the internet. The German Federal Bureau spotted the photos on a child pornography site and traced the pictures to India. Interpol was alerted which then passed on the information to India's Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) who passed it onto the Mumbai Crime Branch. The Mumbai police has taken two hard drives from Singh's house as evidence against him. A spokesperson for the Army said Singh has been on study leave, and is currently not attached to any unit. He also confirmed that the Army will apply for bail so that it can deal with Singh's case. Read more at: http://www.ndtv.com/news/india/lt-col-arrested-for-child-pornography-23881.php?cp _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sat May 8 18:20:35 2010 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 05:50:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] [SPAM] - Lt Col arrested for child pornography In-Reply-To: <001401caeea2$baefc9b0$30cf5d10$@in> Message-ID: <891542.83514.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Bipin   Steady dear Sir, steady.   You are quick to demand "should be hanged immediately if proven guilty"   There is no doubt that there is the likelihood of those showing interest in child pornography could be potential sexual molestors of children, and one should be thankful that the Internet is duly monitored to try and weed out such persons.   That said, even if the Lt Col were to be found guilty of 'downloading' and 'uploading' child-pornography (as the extent of the charge against him is known so far), that can by no stretch of 'justice' be considered to be deserving of the 'death penalty'.   Kshmendra    --- On Sat, 5/8/10, Bipin Trivedi wrote: From: Bipin Trivedi Subject: Re: [Reader-list] [SPAM] - Lt Col arrested for child pornography To: "'Taha Mehmood'" <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> Cc: "sarai-list" Date: Saturday, May 8, 2010, 5:06 PM Such army man are shame for India. His case also should be done on fast track and should be hanged immediately if proven guilty. -----Original Message----- From: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net [mailto:reader-list-bounces at sarai.net] On Behalf Of Taha Mehmood Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 7:09 PM To: Sarai Reader-list Subject: [SPAM] - [Reader-list] Lt Col arrested for child pornography What's happening to Indian Army? Lt Col arrested for child pornography NDTV Correspondent, Friday May 7, 2010, Mumbai A serving Army officer, Lieutenant Colonel Jagmohan Balbir Singh, has been arrested in Mumbai for disseminating child pornography over the Internet. Forty two-year-old Singh was arrested by the Cyber Cell in Mumbai on Thursday and will stay in police custody till May 12. Singh allegedly posted and downloaded pornographic photos of foreign children between the ages of 3 and 10 on the internet. The German Federal Bureau spotted the photos on a child pornography site and traced the pictures to India. Interpol was alerted which then passed on the information to India's Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) who passed it onto the Mumbai Crime Branch. The Mumbai police has taken two hard drives from Singh's house as evidence against him. A spokesperson for the Army said Singh has been on study leave, and is currently not attached to any unit. He also confirmed that the Army will apply for bail so that it can deal with Singh's case. Read more at: http://www.ndtv.com/news/india/lt-col-arrested-for-child-pornography-23881.php?cp _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com Sat May 8 18:38:39 2010 From: rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com (Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi) Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 18:38:39 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] " Pakistan is 'epicenter of Islamic terrorism' " In-Reply-To: References: <982630.78730.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear L A, and others on the list, after 1947, while India chose to be secular and non aligned in the comity of nations, but in practice tilted towatrds the left block led by russia, Pakistan was directly with America, a tool for balancing asia for America, balance of its domination in the region. Pakistan also chose to be islamic state, thus aspiring to lure the followers of faith to marry and bond, the recent example is that of a tennis starlet and a cricket player.1962 changed the indian stance, of quota, permit and inspector raj lost grip, subsequent aggressions by China and Pakistan, erosion of USSR in to smaller entities, making the comity of nations in to uni-polar, gave the american leaders to search imaginary weapons of mass destruction, creation of taliban to fight russian presence in Afghanistan, later to be hounded by the monster created by them at their neck. What is more amusing is India is now gradually becoming a satellite nation of america with its agenda of fighting terror, with 123 agreement of N-deal, zero liability Bill passed without debate amidst protest walkouts by irresponsible opposition of the nation, has given the burauecrat turned politician PM additional courage to have more kickbacks to first family in the N-plant to be bought by the nation for peaceful energy needs.!Oldest party which ruled the nation for most of the time is known for corruption and kickback deals from the the very first day of rule in free india. Nehru who forgot and wept about kashmiri displaced citizens, had to weep at the follies of corruption when his son in law, Phiroz Shah, cornered him in Mundra Insurance kickbacks, fall guy being TTKrishnamachari, the then finance minister.Later his daughter got the dowry baggage of uncle Q, Snam prgeti fertiliser plant manufacturer of Italy, landing in Delhi for the deals of fertiliser plants, That later he became front agent for the rajiv deal of Bofors is not forgotten by citizens of the nation though the premier investigative agency now a political tool of ruling elite turned a white washing agent for the rulers.PM being the buddy of Bush and then now trying to be chummy with Obama, citizens can expect more scams in N-plant purchases in future and the poor be damned if they protest when the plants are installed, as many thousands will be displaced with their lands and homes destroyed for the plants, Narmada bachao activists and human right activists will be awarded with more of padma awards so that they can hail the acts of subversions of innocents from existence.! love and regards,rajen. On Sat, May 8, 2010 at 4:11 PM, Lalit Ambardar wrote: > > > > > > One can > not but sympathise with the innocent Pakistani masses who are now falling > prey > to the menace of pan Islamism inspired terror that was essentially fostered > by > Pakistan post Soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan to ‘inflict thousand cuts > on > India’. > > > > We are the victims of jihadi terror having suffered > ethnic cleansing in Kashmir two decades ago. So we understand the agony of > ordinary Pakistanis. The > visuals of tented refuge camps that came up overnight post military > intervention > in Swat & other areas against the Islamists was reminiscent of our own > plight when we were forced to flee our homes & hearths & rendered > refugees in our own country because we professed a different faith & were > declared > ‘kafir’s by those who wanted only ‘Nizame Mustafa’ in Kashmir. Your agony > is > same as that of mine .The only difference being that you are a victim of > your > own ‘creation’. Therefore, the solutions have to come from within Pakistan. > > > > Terrorists are terrorists- they can’t be ‘good’ > or ‘bad’. Pakistan is at war with its own prodigies > who were launched to fight anti India Jihad in Kashmir & have gone now out > of its > control targeting rest of the world too. > > > > That well > meaning Pakistanis aren’t oblivious of the ominous consequences is evident > from > what Maj. Gen.(retd) Mahmud Ali Durrani (till recently National Security > Advisor > to PM Gilani) writes in ‘aman ki asha’(The Times of India/The Jang > initiative) series (TOI/May6,2010/page no.2)… > > > > “As a Pakistani. I believe the primary threat to > my country today is from terrorists. We are fighting for control, not only > for > our territory, but our very soul. Alas many Pakistanis are in state of > denial, focussing > on the ‘differences’ between one set of terrorists and another…..It is time > to > stop believing in the expression ‘one man’s terrorist is another man’s > freedom > fighter……..” > > > > Rgds all > > LA > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > From: yasir.media at gmail.com > > Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 01:31:16 +0500 > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] " Pakistan is 'epicenter of Islamic terrorism' > " > > > > Its a good question, how to stop the "Islamic terrorism" funded funded by > > old Zbignew against the Soviet Union and which does not seem to be > stopping, > > even when though they are long gone. > > > > and its not madrassas :D it is funding. > > and people need other things to do, besides watching out for nato drone > > attacks. > > > > best > > > > > > On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 4:09 PM, Kshmendra Kaul >wrote: > > > > > " Pakistan is 'epicenter of Islamic terrorism' " > > > > > > May 5, 2010 > > > > > > (Editor's note: Fareed Zakaria is an author and foreign affairs analyst > who > > > hosts "Fareed Zakaria GPS" on CNN U.S. on Sundays at 10 a.m. and 1 p.m. > ET > > > and CNN International at 2 and 10 p.m. Central European Time / 5 p.m. > Abu > > > Dhabi / 9 p.m. Hong Kong.) > > > > > > New York (CNN) -- The suspect in the Times Square bombing attempt was > > > caught as he was seeking to flee to Pakistan, a nation that analyst > Fareed > > > Zakaria calls the "epicenter of Islamic terrorism." > > > > > > "It's worth noting that even the terrorism that's often attributed to > the > > > war in Afghanistan tends to come out of Pakistan, to be planned by > > > Pakistanis, to be funded from Pakistan or in some other way to be > traced to > > > Pakistan," said Zakaria. He added that Pakistan's connection with > terrorist > > > groups goes back decades and has often been encouraged by that nation's > > > military for strategic reasons. > > > > > > Faisal Shahzad, a 30-year-old naturalized citizen of Pakistani descent, > had > > > recently been trained in bomb making in Pakistan's Waziristan province, > > > according to a federal complaint filed in court Tuesday. CNN reported > > > Tuesday that Faisal Shahzad's father is a retired vice-marshal in the > > > Pakistani Air Force. > > > > > > Shahzad was arrested around 11:45 p.m. ET Monday at New York's John F. > > > Kennedy International Airport just before he was to fly to Islamabad, > > > Pakistan, by way of Dubai. > > > Zakaria, author and host of CNN's "Fareed Zakaria GPS," spoke to CNN on > > > Tuesday. Here is an edited transcript: > > > > > > CNN: Based on what we know so far, what lessons can be learned from > this > > > incident? > > > > > > Fareed Zakaria: This does not seem to be part of a larger and more > > > organized effort to penetrate the United States. That doesn't mean such > > > efforts are not under way....it does make you realize just how open we > are > > > as a country and how open we are as a society. There is always a level > of > > > vulnerability that comes from being an open society and this guy, Mr. > > > Shahzad obviously took advantage of that openness. > > > > > > CNN: Apparently he traveled to Pakistan on a number of occasions. Does > that > > > signal that Pakistan isn't vigilant enough about terrorism? > > > > > > Zakaria: Well it certainly signals something that we have known for a > > > while, which is that Pakistan is the epicenter of Islamic terrorism. > ... The > > > British government has estimated that something like 80 percent of the > > > terror threats that they receive have a Pakistani connection. > > > > > > So there's no question that Pakistan has a terrorism problem. It has > > > radical groups within the country that have the ability to recruit > people > > > and have access to resources that makes for a very combustible mixture. > > > > > > It should remind us that even when looking at the war in Afghanistan, > > > ultimately the most important place where jihadis are being trained and > > > recruited is not in Afghanistan but in Pakistan. And there's no other > part > > > of the world where you have quite the same concentration of manpower, > > > resources and ideology all feeding on each other. > > > > > > CNN: What feeds the ideology that drives the terror effort? > > > > > > Zakaria: Pakistan has been conducive to this kind of jihadis for a > number > > > of reasons. For the last three or four decades, the Pakistani > government, > > > the Pakistani military has supported, funded many of these groups in a > bid > > > to maintain influence in Afghanistan, in a bid to maintain an > asymmetrical > > > capacity against India -- in other words, to try to destabilize India > rather > > > cheaply through these militant groups rather than frontally through its > > > army. > > > > > > So it has found it useful to have these militant groups and to support > > > them. It has always assumed that these groups will not attack > Pakistanis and > > > therefore was not a threat to Pakistan itself. And to a large extent > that's > > > true, these groups by and large have attacked people in Afghanistan, > India, > > > in the West but not in Pakistan. But that is changing, because these > groups > > > are so intermingled and often sufficiently ideological, and also > because the > > > Pakistani military is beginning to take them on. > > > > > > But fundamentally the reason this has gone on is that there has been a > > > policy of the Pakistani state and particularly the Pakistani military, > to > > > encourage these groups, to fund them, to ignore their most pernicious > > > activities. And some of it goes back even further than four decades. In > the > > > 1965 war against India, the Pakistanis used Islamic jihadis > > > > > > And the great hope now is that finally the Pakistani government is > getting > > > serious about this. Frankly it remains a hope. > > > > > > CNN: Why do you say that it's only a hope? > > > > > > Zakaria: Over the last few years, it appears that the Pakistani > government > > > has begun to understand that these groups all meld together, that they > are a > > > threat to a stable and viable modern Pakistani state. But when I talk > about > > > the Pakistani government you have to realize that there are different > > > elements in it. > > > > > > The Pakistani civilian government really does understand the danger > that > > > Islamic terrorism poses to Pakistan, but the civilian government in > Pakistan > > > appears quite powerless. Most power lies with the military. > > > > > > The military in Pakistan has a somewhat more complex attitude. It does > > > believe that these militants have gone too far. It does believe that it > has > > > to take on the militants. And it has actually battled them quite > bravely > > > over the last few years. > > > > > > CNN: So what's the reason for thinking the military supports militant > > > groups? > > > > > > Zakaria: It still holds within it the view that at the end of the day, > the > > > United States will leave the region and that they will have to live in > a > > > neighborhood which will have a very powerful India and an Afghanistan > that > > > is potentially a client state of India's -- and that in order to combat > this > > > Indian domination, they need to maintain their asymmetrical > capabilities, > > > their militant groups. > > > > > > It is interesting to note that Ahmed Rashid, who may be the most > respected > > > Pakistani journalist, has reported on the way in which Pakistani > government > > > has thwarted and put obstacles in the way of any kind of talks between > the > > > Afghan government and the Taliban. > > > > > > The message it has sent to the Afghan government is very clear. If you > want > > > to have any negotiations with the Taliban, you have to understand that > since > > > we are the critical intermediary -- since the Taliban leadership all > lives > > > in Pakistan -- the Pakistani military's terms to the Afghan government > are, > > > we want you to push back on Indian influence in Afghanistan, we want > you to > > > shut down Indian consulates in various Afghan cities. > > > > > > In other words, the Pakistani government is still obsessed with the > idea of > > > an Indian domination of the region, and they're using their influence > with > > > the Taliban to try to counter Indian influence. This is the old game > that > > > the Pakistanis have played. > > > > > > That's what makes me skeptical that there's been a true strategic > > > revolution in Pakistan... There are still people who believe that there > are > > > good terrorists and bad terrorists, and some you can work with to > further > > > Pakistan's goals. > > > > > > CNN: In the attempted car bombing in Times Square and the Christmas Day > > > attempted bombing, you have two failed plots that don't appear to be > highly > > > sophisticated. Does that tell us anything about the terror groups? > > > > > > Zakaria: At some level, that tells you about the weakness of the terror > > > groups. You do not have highly organized terrorist groups with great > > > resources and capacity that are able to plan spectacular acts of > terrorism > > > the way they were in the 1990s and on 9/11. > > > > > > What you have now are more isolated, disorganized lone rangers and > while > > > they're obviously very worrying and one has to be extremely vigilant, > it is > > > also at some level a sign of the weakness of an organization like al > Qaeda > > > that it is not able to do the kind of terrorist attacks it used to. > > > > > > To be sure, it's important to be very vigilant and make sure you have > > > groups like al Qaeda on the run. But I don't know that in a free > society, > > > you will ever be able to prevent an individual with no background in > > > terrorism who's broken no laws and is radicalized from attempting to > make > > > some kind of trouble. > > > > > > > > > > http://edition.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/05/05/zakaria.pakistan.terror/index.html?hpt=T2 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > _________________________________________________________________ > Catch the latest in the world of fashion > http://lifestyle.in.msn.com/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > -- Rajen. From rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com Sat May 8 18:47:51 2010 From: rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com (Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi) Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 18:47:51 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [SPAM] - Lt Col arrested for child pornography In-Reply-To: <891542.83514.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <001401caeea2$baefc9b0$30cf5d10$@in> <891542.83514.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Bipin and Kshemedra, at the outset, let me express my deepest anguish and anxiety at the intolerence of the common citizen to jump the gun and ask for "hanging" of any accused. Though I am against the death penalty in general for any crime in society, in general, as civilised way of life which does not give life can not take away the life, rabid intolerence from any quarter for dissent, expression of thoughts which are entirely at variance with rule of laws, attempts to subvert the rule of laws with violence by vilent means , be it naxalism which aims to bring its leadership to power by force, use of violence, its supporters using the very freedom to express for expressing support for violence makes the death penalty a credible tool to control rabids in democratic rule of laws. After due process of laws, the proven accused should be hanged without any delay,particularly the political leadership which plays to galleries for votes is to be hanged when proved guilty of such subversion of voting process. love and regards,rajen. On Sat, May 8, 2010 at 6:20 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Bipin > > Steady dear Sir, steady. > > You are quick to demand "should be hanged immediately if proven guilty" > > There is no doubt that there is the likelihood of those showing interest > in child pornography could be potential sexual molestors of children, and > one should be thankful that the Internet is duly monitored to try and weed > out such persons. > > That said, even if the Lt Col were to be found guilty of 'downloading' and > 'uploading' child-pornography (as the extent of the charge against him is > known so far), that can by no stretch of 'justice' be considered to > be deserving of the 'death penalty'. > > Kshmendra > > > --- On Sat, 5/8/10, Bipin Trivedi wrote: > > > From: Bipin Trivedi > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] [SPAM] - Lt Col arrested for child pornography > To: "'Taha Mehmood'" <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> > Cc: "sarai-list" > Date: Saturday, May 8, 2010, 5:06 PM > > > Such army man are shame for India. His case also should be done on fast > track and should be hanged immediately if proven guilty. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net [mailto:reader-list-bounces at sarai.net] > On Behalf Of Taha Mehmood > Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 7:09 PM > To: Sarai Reader-list > Subject: [SPAM] - [Reader-list] Lt Col arrested for child pornography > > What's happening to Indian Army? > > Lt Col arrested for child pornography > NDTV Correspondent, Friday May 7, 2010, Mumbai > > > A serving Army officer, Lieutenant Colonel Jagmohan Balbir Singh, has > been arrested in Mumbai for disseminating child pornography over the > Internet. > > Forty two-year-old Singh was arrested by the Cyber Cell in Mumbai on > Thursday and will stay in police custody till May 12. > > Singh allegedly posted and downloaded pornographic photos of foreign > children between the ages of 3 and 10 on the internet. The German > Federal Bureau spotted the photos on a child pornography site and > traced the pictures to India. Interpol was alerted which then passed > on the information to India's Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) > who passed it onto the Mumbai Crime Branch. > > The Mumbai police has taken two hard drives from Singh's house as > evidence against him. > > A spokesperson for the Army said Singh has been on study leave, and is > currently not attached to any unit. He also confirmed that the Army > will apply for bail so that it can deal with Singh's case. > > > Read more at: > http://www.ndtv.com/news/india/lt-col-arrested-for-child-pornography-23881.php?cp > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- Rajen. From shuddha at sarai.net Sat May 8 15:48:06 2010 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 15:48:06 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT In-Reply-To: References: <000001caed03$56a020e0$03e062a0$@in> <436778.39847.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <000c01caedcd$22793d90$676bb8b0$@in> Message-ID: Dear All, Yasir, Bipin There is a lot of noise being made (in the media and elsewhere, including on this list) about how the execution of Ajmal Kasab is going to be delayed exactly as the execution of Afzal Guru has been delayed, and that this is going to happen because of the so-called policy of 'appeasement' of Muslims. I find these suggestions ill informed, and disgusting. First of all, let me clarify that I am totally opposed to capital punishment, and it is for that reason that I am opposed to the hanging of Ajmal Kasab, if in the not so distant future, a court were to hand a death sentence to Lt. Col. Purohit, or, say to the current chief minister of the state of Gujarat, I would be opposed to those hangings as well, the question of their identities and their politics, even their acts and crimes, would not make a difference to my opposition to the awarding of a death penalty in either of these cases. I am not for a moment suggesting that Kasab is innocent. As far as I can make out, he is guilty. I just think that capital punishment does not serve any worthwhile social or ethical purpose. There is a clear difference between the cases of Kasab and Afzal Guru. I am one of those who has argued publicly against the death penalty for Afzal Guru. And the reasons for my arguments have nothing to do with his being Muslim. They have to do with the fact that Afzal's trial, as shown by the record, was deeply flawed. His being chared as guilty is substantially based on a confessional statements made by him extracted in police custody, which do not have evidentiary value, further, in his depositions, Afzal has consistently maintained that he was acting under the instructions of senior figures within the intelligence/security apparatus, these figures have not been examined in any court where Afzal has been tried. As long as they are examined, Afzal's trial cannot be seen to have been complete, free, or fair. It is for these reasons that many people have consistently opposed the awarding of the death penalty to Afzal. All this is a matter of public record, and yet, sections of the media, and many individuals continue to assert the blatant lie that all those who oppose the death penalty to Afzal do so because of his religious identity. This is a gross misrepresentation and a lie. I find it utterly sad that several Muslim and other organizations in India found it necessary to mount loud public spectacles of their support for the death sentence to Ajmal Kasab. Ajmal Kasab is a terrorist, I have no sympathy for him or for his actions, but, I find the public expression of righteous bloodlust (and its projection by servile sections of the media) in order to win brownie points for 'loyalism' utterly disgusting and obscene. best Shuddha On 07-May-10, at 10:56 PM, yasir ~يا سر wrote: > Dear Bipin + > > Their is a big assumption here. that the muslim groups in India > support > Kasab. I am shocked to hear this, if this is what you mean____you > mean that > indian muslims would try to get kasab off on easy terms because he is > muslim. I think there may be a mistake: i think many would want to > do worse > to him. this is another of those very basic points wholly solely being > missed. > > best > > > > On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 3:07 PM, Bipin Trivedi > wrote: > >> Dear Kshemendra, >> >> >> >> Parliament can and has right to make such decision if show will. But, >> congress cannot show such will, who prolonged even Afsalguru >> conviction >> keeping pending for so long for their vote bank politics. >> Comparison with >> Shah Bano for the reason of vote bank politics only to appealing >> minor. >> Reverting shah Bano verdict is classic example of minor >> appeasement and the >> same case with Afsalguru and I am fear for Kasav also same thing >> might >> happen. >> >> >> >> Thanks >> >> Bipin >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> From: Kshmendra Kaul [mailto:kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com] >> >> Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 1:35 PM >> >> To: sarai-list; Bipin Trivedi >> >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT >> >> >> >> Dear Bipin >> >> >> >> A. I am against the death penalty for anyone for any crime >> whatsoever. I >> believe the 'death penalty' is awarded in barbaric societies, and >> yes, >> India >> is still barbaric in many ways. >> >> >> >> B. You might disagree on the above. That does not change the >> opportunity >> allowed in India for anyone convicted in a crime in a Lower Court >> to take >> the matter to a Higher Cour. >> >> >> >> Since it is a question of a 'death penalty', Kasab has the >> right to >> have his case heard by the Higher Courts right upto the Supreme >> Court. >> After >> that he has the right to appeal to the President for waiver of the >> 'death >> penalty'. The Constitution of India provides that right. You >> cannot compare >> Civil Law of the Shah Bano case witha 'death penalty' being awarded. >> >> >> >> No one can take that right away from Kasab. >> >> >> >> Kshmendra >> >> >> >> >> >> --- On Thu, 5/6/10, Bipin Trivedi wrote: >> >> >> >> From: Bipin Trivedi >> >> Subject: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT >> >> To: "sarai-list" >> >> Date: Thursday, May 6, 2010, 3:33 PM >> >> AS EXPECTED, KASAV RIGHTLY GOT DEATH SENTENCE. >> >> >> >> Though terrorist's Kasav case was crystal clear, but still we have >> gone for >> >> about 17 months fair trial and proved that how transparent our >> judicial >> >> system is unlike Pakistan. But, after this trial and judgment, he >> should >> not >> >> allow to appeal in the higher court and should be hanged in public >> >> immediately without further judicial procedure. if Indira Gandhi >> (ex PM) >> >> deny to obey court verdict and neglect law and Shah Banu case was >> revert >> out >> >> of law by parliament than why cannot this? India should show the >> world that >> >> country cannot compromise in integrity and take hard action if >> required >> like >> >> open public death sentence. >> >> >> >> Thanks >> >> Bipin >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe >> in the subject header. >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sat May 8 19:37:51 2010 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 07:07:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT In-Reply-To: <003601caee6e$c4ff0120$4efd0360$@in> Message-ID: <962018.57389.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Bipin   We are talking in circles now. I will try to make this my last post on this thread and you are most welcome to have the final say.   1. To answer the easier question. Yes, in my opinion, the countries including India, USA, China, Pakistan and whosoever else, even if they total to 99% of the World Population are BARBARIC in having the 'death penalty' as punishment for any crime whatsoever.       I hope you understand that I am not calling these countries 'barbaric' in their sum-total, but 'barbaric' with regards to death-penalty.   2. Yes our (Indian) Constitution permits the 'death penalty' and from my point of view that needs to be changed. And, because I want to see that changed therefore my argument is not irrelevant but it is a mirror for showing the barbarism of death-penalty existing in the Constitution and the blood-lust of those who are scream for anyone at all to be done to death for any crime whatsoever.   3. My (and presumably other 'people like me') opposing the 'death penalty' is not meant for saving one person but for saving every person who might be awarded the death sentence whether that person has killed 1 or a hundred or thousands.   4. I tried to explain to you in the last mail why the delay in execution of Afzal Guru is not 'minority appeasement' but I seem to have been unsuccessful.      There are reportedly 29 'mercy petitions' like that of Afzal Guru lying pending with the President of India.      Afzal Guru was sentenced to death in 2004.      Let me now give you some names of those who were awarded the death sentence before Afzal Guru and you might realise that there is no 'minority appeasement' in play.     Look at these names: Murugan; G. Perarivalan; Chinna Shanthan;  Davinder Singh Bhullar ;  Simon; Gnanprakasham; Meesekar Madaiah; Bilvendran; Gurdev Singh; Satnam Singh; Para Singh; Sarabjit Singh; Praveen Kumar      There is a rule followed that each one will await its turn for being accepted or being rejected. THIS IS IMPORTANT. You have said that "Legal experts clearly says there is no such law to go with queue for death sentence matter." Will you please tell me which "Legal Experts" But, isnt it logical that it should be turn by turn.       Your main argument for fast-tracking the execution of Afzal Guru is "One must separate terrorists conviction with other conviction. Due to our this terror soft approach, we are unable to fight terror to the extent what actually we should do."      You are conveying that putting Afzal Guru to death speedily will deter other terrorists from attacking India.      In this I disagree with you and let me tell you why. Bipin there is no evidence at all from any part of the World that executing the 'death sentence' for any kind of a crime leads to decrease in the incidence of that particular crime. If you have any such evidence please do share it. You can take the examples of the very countries you mentioned USA, China, Pakistan and you can add to that all other countries where the 'death penalty' is awarded and executed.   As I said earlier, you can have the final say.   Kshmendra   --- On Sat, 5/8/10, Bipin Trivedi wrote: From: Bipin Trivedi Subject: RE: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT To: "'Kshmendra Kaul'" Cc: "sarai-list" Date: Saturday, May 8, 2010, 10:54 AM Dear Kshemendra, I have not at all missed the central point. Politician go out of law for their selfish motto, but not for terror conviction. What's the reason? Can you tell? Just because of political mileage, nothing else. It's real problem that people like you did not understand this. Because they were punished as terrorists activity and so the special case and not because of their religion. One must separate terrorists conviction with other conviction. Due to our this terror soft approach, we are unable to fight terror to the extent what actually we should do. I have never mentioned that Afsalguru should be given priority for punishment because he belongs to minority, but due to terrorist act conviction only. Whoever involved in this and even in the future any religion should be treated as same for terror conviction. Afsalguru case is clear minor appeasement for not executing his conviction and goes wrong message to terror groups and encourage them further. Legal experts clearly says there is no such law to go with queue for death sentence matter. Earlier such execution of death sentence carried out, out of turn in the couple of occasions. Constitution of India (SC) has already convicted death sentence in 2006, this cabinet for strange reason delaying it. So, this is clear minor appeasement case Dear Kshemendra. This is where congress lack will to fight terrorism.  You personally oppose death sentence is altogether different issue. Our constitution permits death sentence, so you argument at present is irrelevant of blood thirsty animal from Indian point of view. It is unfortunate that people like you oppose death sentence for the people who is blood thirsty for hundreds or thousands of people. You want to save the life of one person who engaged in blood bath and take lives of 100/1000 of people!!! India is barbaric in your view by adopting death sentence than those nation like US, China, Pakistan and many more are also barbaric for adopting this law. This is about 70% of world population is barbaric according to you! Thanks Bipin From: Kshmendra Kaul [mailto:kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com] Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 4:10 PM To: Bipin Trivedi Cc: sarai-list Subject: RE: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT Dear Bipin   You have missed the central point. The Constitution of India gives that right to Ajmal Kasab and also to Afzal Guru.   FYI Afzal Guru is not the only one who's appeal for waiver of 'death penalty' is pending with the President. And most of the others are Hindus. So stop obsessing about 'appeasement of minorities' in this case.   The Constitution of India is not so petty that it will be changed just because you or someone else or even if millions of Indians want to deny Kasab the tiered rights to Courts and appeal to President.   Bipin, one should not accuse others of behaving like blood-thirsty animals and then become a blood-thirsty animal himself/herself.   Kshmendra     --- On Fri, 5/7/10, Bipin Trivedi wrote: From: Bipin Trivedi Subject: RE: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT To: "'Kshmendra Kaul'" Cc: "sarai-list" Date: Friday, May 7, 2010, 3:37 PM Dear Kshemendra,   Parliament can and has right to make such decision if show will. But, congress cannot show such will, who prolonged even Afsalguru conviction keeping pending for so long for their vote bank politics. Comparison with Shah Bano for the reason of vote bank politics only to appealing minor. Reverting shah Bano verdict is classic example of minor appeasement and the same case with Afsalguru and I am fear for Kasav also same thing might happen.   Thanks Bipin         From: Kshmendra Kaul [mailto:kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com] Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 1:35 PM To: sarai-list; Bipin Trivedi Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT   Dear Bipin   A. I am against the death penalty for anyone for any crime whatsoever. I believe the 'death penalty' is awarded in barbaric societies, and yes, India is still barbaric in many ways.   B. You might disagree on the above. That does not change the opportunity allowed in India for anyone convicted in a crime in a Lower Court to take the matter to a Higher Cour.         Since it is a question of a 'death penalty', Kasab has the right to have his case heard by the Higher Courts right upto the Supreme Court. After that he has the right to appeal to the President for waiver of the 'death penalty'. The Constitution of India provides that right. You cannot compare Civil Law of the Shah Bano case witha 'death penalty' being awarded.         No one can take that right away from Kasab.   Kshmendra      --- On Thu, 5/6/10, Bipin Trivedi wrote:   From: Bipin Trivedi Subject: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT To: "sarai-list" Date: Thursday, May 6, 2010, 3:33 PM AS EXPECTED, KASAV RIGHTLY GOT DEATH SENTENCE.   Though terrorist's Kasav case was crystal clear, but still we have gone for about 17 months fair trial and proved that how transparent our judicial system is unlike Pakistan. But, after this trial and judgment, he should not allow to appeal in the higher court and should be hanged in public immediately without further judicial procedure. if Indira Gandhi (ex PM) deny to obey court verdict and neglect law and Shah Banu case was revert out of law by parliament than why cannot this? India should show the world that country cannot compromise in integrity and take hard action if required like open public death sentence.   Thanks Bipin       _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>   From anansi1 at earthlink.net Sat May 8 19:42:31 2010 From: anansi1 at earthlink.net (Paul D. Miller) Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 10:12:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Public Enemy vs Arizona: Sonic Immigration Message-ID: <24521732.1273327952042.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Hello to Josh and the Sarai list. I apologize about the delay in communication, but I had a concert in Khartoum, Sudan, and there were thousands of people at the show, and it was a demonstration of some of the unique qualities of why reaching out past the norms of the kind of paranoid scenarios Josh has been spouting on the list is exactly what I think the world needs more of. To those on the list that haven't heard the track I did with Public Enemy, you can hear it here: http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html And yo Josh - screw your crappy music taste... Josh - why do you think that the Phoenix Suns has changed their name to "Los Suns": Team owner Robert Sarver says the Spanish jersey is meant to, quote, "honor our Latino community and the diversity of our league, the state of Arizona and our nation." The Arizona reactionary stance towards immigration is what I think is a betrayal of the country, and I believe that naive people like the right wing types who espouse it have no idea about the economics of what they're talking about. The trouble is that as a larger political ideology, its hateful and divisive message is encouraging ever more misguided madness. Some examples: Read more: http://newsbusters.org/blogs/scott-whitlock/2010/05/05/msnbcs-dylan-ratigan-gives-kudos-arizona-basketball-team-protesting-#ixzz0nLQzAkyL The problem is this: you can't argue with right wing lunatics like Josh - facts don't matter. We learned this during the Bush era, and we've seen the Tea Party idiots doing the same thing. I belong in what I like to call, ironically, after Bush, "the reality based community." Interdependence in a hyper globalized economy is a basic economic fact. You cannot shut it down without massive consequences, and amusingly enough, I bet you'd be hard pressed to find even a right wing economist who would disagree with that basic assumption. Because I cannot argue with Josh (even politely), without being called as he has called me a "racist (!!!???)" and a "betrayer of my country" (sound like Fox News stupidity!?), I can only say - in this forum focused on South Asia, that the kind of anti-immigrant stupidity that he espouses is so dumb as to be beyond the range of coherent dialog. I cannot believe that reactionary people like Josh have no sense of history, or even a willingness to get to facts, but hey, in the America of Fox News and idiots like Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh, I'd encounter a moron like Josh on the Sarai reader list (one could argue that he's a digital immigrant on this list, but the irony is too much...) ... nothing is shocking I guess. I have to admit - I am so disgusted by my fellow Arizona American's reactionary and ultimately idiotic legislation about immigration. It boggles the mind - where do you think they came from? They are all immigrants. Anyway, not that these kinds of links matter to Josh, but hey... I'm just an African American racist who betrays my country and despises Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, Fox News Zombies, and right wing idiots like Sarah Palin. The Left needs to push back on this kind of stuff. HARD. And, hopefully, it will. Supporting links: http://www.truthout.org/david-sirota-i-want-my-country-back-the-motto-mad-men59256 Why the Left has no Response to the Right Wing Lie Machine: http://www.crisispapers.org/essays10p/nolocontendere.htm Why Arizona isn't Crazy, Just wrong: http://www.alternet.org/immigration/146736/why_arizona_isn't_crazy,_just_wrong Arizona Immigration Law Divides Law Enforcement: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/22/us/22immig.html This is my last comment on this thread. Paul -----Original Message----- >From: Joshua Zeidner >Sent: May 6, 2010 2:07 AM >To: reader-list at sarai.net >Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Public Enemy vs Arizona: Sonic Immigration > > Well, I just got back from the Phoenix rally. If any of you think that >the SB1070 bill is about racial profiling, you are out of your mind. The >bulk of the crowd was a semi-violent mob with Mexican and _USSR_ flags (no >joke). They were proudly displaying their concept of history, which is that >of right to ownership of the American southwest. Many of them were clearly >mafia thugs. > > -jmz > > > >On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 9:48 AM, TaraPrakash wrote: > >> "I was at the capitol yesterday, there was a nice young African American >> girl who was vocally against the pro-Mexico demonstrators. She came down >> here because she couldn't find a job in LA." >> >> Now, isn't there some kind of irony? Mexicans don't take so much risk of >> crossing the border because of plenty of jobs on their side of the border. >> Jobwise the state that seems to be doing the best is Texas, now can someone >> remind the history of Texas? Is it somehow connected with Mexico? >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joshua Zeidner" >> To: >> Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2010 11:38 AM >> Subject: [Reader-list] Public Enemy vs Arizona: Sonic Immigration >> >> >> On the contrary, the African Americans are getting played by left wing >>> and the likes of Al Sharpton this time. >>> >>> I was at the capitol yesterday, there was a nice young African American >>> girl who was vocally against the pro-Mexico demonstrators. She came down >>> here because she couldn't find a job in LA. She shouted: "this is the new >>> color of conservatism". >>> >>> We've never had slavery in Arizona. It was formed after the civil war. >>> The African Americans played a critical role in the establishment of our >>> state. >>> >>> -jmz >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 11:44 PM, Paul D. Miller >> >wrote: >>> >>> I'm transferring at Frankfurt airport, and took a quick glance at this >>>> video. I find it sad and appalling. >>>> >>>> It's galvinized me as an African American to build even more bridges >>>> between communities. >>>> >>>> Minorities only get played against one another when this kind of thing >>>> happens, and the end result is everyone loses. >>>> >>>> This kind of stuff is so dumb, it's ridiculous. >>>> >>>> It really saddens me to see fellow African Americans being played by >>>> right >>>> wing types. >>>> >>>> Paul >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> On May 5, 2010, at 7:02 AM, Udai Malhotra >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Dear Joshua, >>>> >>>> What is the point you are trying to make by linking to this video? If >>>> anything it is reinforcing that you are on some straight ignorant shit. >>>> >>>> - Udai >>>> >>>> On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 9:55 AM, Joshua Zeidner < >>>> jjzeidner at gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcmjPgyN36g&NR=1 >>>>> >>>>> -jmz >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 1:28 PM, Paul D. Miller < >>>> > >>>>> anansi1 at earthlink.net>wrote: >>>>> >>>>> > Again - this is strange non sense. >>>>> > 1) the track is a free giveaway so no paycheck etc >>>>> > >>>>> > Josh - this is stupid. Either up the level of the discourse or come up >>>>> with >>>>> > something more interesting. >>>>> > >>>>> > I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone that would say either me >>>>> or >>>>> > Chuck D are racist, and no, Flava Flav isn't on the track. So... >>>>> > >>>>> > What's your point? I'm just getting on a flight to Khartoum, Sudan for >>>>> > a >>>>> > project with ex child soldiers doing electronic music. >>>>> > >>>>> > Josh - if you would like to dialog about the merits of Arizona's >>>>> > immigration, that's ok. But being an asshole, as we've seen in > >>>>> Arizona, >>>>> > doesn't solve anyone's problems. >>>>> > >>>>> > By the way way, no, I'm not racist, and no, Public Enemy isn't racist. >>>>> > >>>>> > And I have nothing to do with Al Sharpton. >>>>> > >>>>> > Paul >>>>> > >>>>> > Sent from my iPhone >>>>> > >>>>> > On May 4, 2010, at 4:02 PM, Joshua Zeidner < >>>>> jjzeidner at gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > sorry for getting all up in your grill hommie, but racism cuts both >>>>> ways. >>>>> > >>>>> > maybe you can get Flavor Flav all up in hizouse too? >>>>> > < >>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzhpB1X-6ok> >>>>> > >>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzhpB1X-6ok >>>>> > >>>>> > it's pretty simple that illegal aliens are modern day slavery and > >>>>> they >>>>> > destroy the lives of white and black Americans alike. Unfortunately >>>>> we've >>>>> > got selllouts like you who are willing to say anything for a paycheck. >>>>> > >>>>> > check ya later holmes, jmz >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 12:48 PM, Paul D. Miller < > << >>>>> anansi1 at earthlink.net> >>>>> anansi1 at earthlink.net> >>>>> > anansi1 at earthlink.net> wrote: >>>>> > >>>>> >> Very strange and reactionary response. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Joshua - can you please enlighten me on my 'racist politics' and my >>>>> >> relationship to Al Sharpton? >>>>> >> >>>>> >> You're sounding a bit shrill and to be completely honest, totally >>>>> >> irrational. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Paul >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >> >>>>> >> On May 4, 2010, at 3:22 PM, Joshua Zeidner < < >>>>> jjzeidner at gmail.com> >>>>> >> jjzeidner at gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> I'm writing this from the Arizona Capitol. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Paul, we don't want your racist politics here. Al Sharpton has >>>>> nothing >>>>> >> in common with the illegal aliens. You are not only a traitor to >> >>>>> your >>>>> >> country but a traitor to your own people. How can you turn against a >>>>> >> country that has given you so much? >>>>> >> >>>>> >> we do remember history. We remember it very well. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Check it: >> << >>>>> http://www.buffalosoldiermuseum.com/?linkid=410&webid=1000> >>>>> http://www.buffalosoldiermuseum.com/?linkid=410&webid=1000><< >>>>> http://www.buffalosoldiermuseum.com/?linkid=410&webid=1000> >>>>> http://www.buffalosoldiermuseum.com/?linkid=410&webid=1000> >>>>> >> >>>>> http://www.buffalosoldiermuseum.com/?linkid=410&webid=1000 >>>>> >> >>>>> >> -jmz >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 12:10 PM, Paul D. Miller < >> << >>>>> anansi1 at earthlink.net> >>>>> anansi1 at earthlink.net>< anansi1 at earthlink.net> >>>>> >>>>> >> anansi1 at earthlink.net> wrote: >>>>> >> >>>>> >>> Hey people - I just finished a studio session with Chuck D from >>> >>>>> Public >>>>> >>> Enemy. In the wake of Republican Governor Jan Brewer's appalling >>>>> >>> anti-immigrant law, me and Chuck D were rappin' and we decided to >>>>> >>> put >>>>> >>> together an update of his classic track "By The Time I get To >>>>> Arizona." >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> You can download the track from here: >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> < >>>>> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html><< >>>>> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html> >>>>> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html> >>>>> >>> >>>>> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Anyone who knows about hip hop from the early 90's remembers John >>>>> >>> McCain's unwillingness to endorse creating a local version of Martin >>>>> Luther >>>>> >>> King's birthday. The update here is a 21st century look in the rear >>>>> view >>>>> >>> mirror. The cliché that "those who don't learn from the past are >>>>> doomed to >>>>> >>> repeat it" still holds sway in our hyper amnesiac culture. I remixed >>>>> D.W. >>>>> >>> Griffith's infamous film Birth of a Nation with a bit of Public >>> >>>>> Enemy >>>>> in >>>>> >>> mind, and later on, they named an e.p. with the same name as my >>>>> project. Me >>>>> >>> and Chuck D have done several projects in the past around >>> >>>>> progressive, >>>>> non >>>>> >>> knucklehead hip hop. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Please feel free to download this track and pass it around. We are >>>>> >>> the >>>>> >>> media. Feel free to pass it around! >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> By the way, this is a mashup, and it's basically not really for >>> >>>>> sale. >>>>> I >>>>> >>> just took a riff from Philly Sound >>> (<< >>>>> http://www.funkadelphiarecords.com> >>>>> http://www.funkadelphiarecords.com>< < >>>>> http://www.funkadelphiarecords.com> >>>>> >>>>> http://www.funkadelphiarecords.com> >>>>> >>> www.funkadelphiarecords.com), >>>>> >>> and >>>>> flipped it. The result, is what you >>>>> >>> hear here. It's free, and open. No $!! >>>>> >>> You can download a better resolution version of the track here: >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> < >>>>> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html><< >>>>> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html> >>>>> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html> >>>>> >>> >>>>> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Check it! >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Paul >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > -- >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>> To subscribe: send an email to >>>>> reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >>>>> To unsubscribe: >>>>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>> List archive: < >>>>> https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >> >> > > >-- >_________________________________________ >reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >Critiques & Collaborations >To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Sat May 8 20:22:16 2010 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 15:52:16 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Price of documenting Individual identity in India-100 rupees Message-ID: Dear All, It seems that the much publicized Census exercise of the GOI is getting murkier. In a country where it is not unusual for a political party to pay money to buy a vote, it seems that the of Government of India is now thinking of governance of identities as some sort of a 'game'. If registration to this whole MNIC alias UID alias Aadhar alias smart card alias identity token alias digital key is a supposed to be a voluntary process, then why is the planning commission thinking of paying an 'incentive' of 100 rupees to get people register their iris, retina and fingerprint scans? What sort of dharma is this which makes a government to leverage a person's lack of privilege in order to seduce him to part the most intrinsic parts of his identity? Are we to believe that not a single paisa of Rs3000 crore apportioned to give 100 Rupees as incentive will not find its way into someone else's pocket? Is this not a loot of public funds? -And the finance commission plans to spend another Rs 3,000 crore to give Rs 100 as an incentive to every ‘below-poverty-line’ citizen as a motivation to get enrolled.- Please read the full story here- http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/infotech/ites/Govt-to-introduce-bill-to–regulate-unique-ID-project/articleshow/5887626.cms in sadness :-( Taha From rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com Sat May 8 20:27:47 2010 From: rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com (Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi) Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 20:27:47 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Price of documenting Individual identity in India-100 rupees In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Taha, what a great way to legalise the illegal immigrents in the nation, from across the border, from african nations torn with internal strife, the illegals can get additional benefits of 100 rupees along with voting rights...........! On Sat, May 8, 2010 at 8:22 PM, Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com>wrote: > Dear All, > > It seems that the much publicized Census exercise of the GOI is > getting murkier. In a country where it is not unusual for a political > party to pay money to buy a vote, it seems that the of Government of > India is now thinking of governance of identities as some sort of a > 'game'. > > If registration to this whole MNIC alias UID alias Aadhar alias smart > card alias identity token alias digital key is a supposed to be a > voluntary process, then why is the planning commission thinking of > paying an 'incentive' of 100 rupees to get people register their iris, > retina and fingerprint scans? What sort of dharma is this which makes > a government to leverage a person's lack of privilege in order to > seduce him to part the most intrinsic parts of his identity? > > Are we to believe that not a single paisa of Rs3000 crore apportioned > to give 100 Rupees as incentive will not find its way into someone > else's pocket? Is this not a loot of public funds? > > -And the finance commission plans to spend another Rs 3,000 crore to > give Rs 100 as an incentive to every ‘below-poverty-line’ citizen as a > motivation to get enrolled.- > > Please read the full story here- > > http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/infotech/ites/Govt-to-introduce-bill-to > –regulate-unique-ID-project/articleshow/5887626.cms > > in sadness :-( > > Taha > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Rajen. From rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com Sat May 8 20:37:44 2010 From: rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com (Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi) Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 20:37:44 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT In-Reply-To: <962018.57389.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <003601caee6e$c4ff0120$4efd0360$@in> <962018.57389.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Kshemendra, while I empathise with your stand on NO to Death penalty, the post of yours mentions the names of the individuals, but so naive it is as to the crime they have committed is not mentioned, five of them are associated with assasination of Indira, five are rajiv assain accused and convicted, and this is where the catch is as daugter of slain and grand daughter of the victims going to prison without any records of visits to get foothold in those states of Punjab and tamilnadu for the oldest political party as mother of all sympathies.! regards, rajen. On Sat, May 8, 2010 at 7:37 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Bipin > > We are talking in circles now. I will try to make this my last post on this > thread and you are most welcome to have the final say. > > 1. To answer the easier question. Yes, in my opinion, the countries > including India, USA, China, Pakistan and whosoever else, even if they total > to 99% of the World Population are BARBARIC in having the 'death penalty' as > punishment for any crime whatsoever. > > I hope you understand that I am not calling these countries 'barbaric' > in their sum-total, but 'barbaric' with regards to death-penalty. > > 2. Yes our (Indian) Constitution permits the 'death penalty' and from my > point of view that needs to be changed. And, because I want to see that > changed therefore my argument is not irrelevant but it is a mirror for > showing the barbarism of death-penalty existing in the Constitution and the > blood-lust of those who are scream for anyone at all to be done to death for > any crime whatsoever. > > 3. My (and presumably other 'people like me') opposing the 'death penalty' > is not meant for saving one person but for saving every person who might be > awarded the death sentence whether that person has killed 1 or a hundred or > thousands. > > 4. I tried to explain to you in the last mail why the delay in execution of > Afzal Guru is not 'minority appeasement' but I seem to have been > unsuccessful. > > There are reportedly 29 'mercy petitions' like that of Afzal Guru lying > pending with the President of India. > > Afzal Guru was sentenced to death in 2004. > > Let me now give you some names of those who were awarded the death > sentence before Afzal Guru and you might realise that there is no 'minority > appeasement' in play. > > Look at these names: Murugan; G. Perarivalan; Chinna Shanthan; Davinder > Singh Bhullar ; Simon; Gnanprakasham; Meesekar Madaiah; Bilvendran; Gurdev > Singh; Satnam Singh; Para Singh; Sarabjit Singh; Praveen Kumar > > There is a rule followed that each one will await its turn for being > accepted or being rejected. THIS IS IMPORTANT. You have said that "Legal > experts clearly says there is no such law to go with queue for death > sentence matter." Will you please tell me which "Legal Experts" But, isnt it > logical that it should be turn by turn. > > Your main argument for fast-tracking the execution of Afzal Guru is "One > must separate terrorists conviction with other conviction. Due to our this > terror soft approach, we are unable to fight terror to the extent what > actually we should do." > > You are conveying that putting Afzal Guru to death speedily will deter > other terrorists from attacking India. > > In this I disagree with you and let me tell you why. Bipin there is no > evidence at all from any part of the World that executing the 'death > sentence' for any kind of a crime leads to decrease in the incidence of that > particular crime. If you have any such evidence please do share it. You can > take the examples of the very countries you mentioned USA, China, Pakistan > and you can add to that all other countries where the 'death penalty' is > awarded and executed. > > As I said earlier, you can have the final say. > > Kshmendra > > > --- On Sat, 5/8/10, Bipin Trivedi wrote: > > > From: Bipin Trivedi > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > To: "'Kshmendra Kaul'" > Cc: "sarai-list" > Date: Saturday, May 8, 2010, 10:54 AM > > > Dear Kshemendra, > > I have not at all missed the central point. Politician go out of law for > their selfish motto, but not for terror conviction. What's the reason? Can > you tell? Just because of political mileage, nothing else. It's real > problem > that people like you did not understand this. Because they were punished as > terrorists activity and so the special case and not because of their > religion. One must separate terrorists conviction with other conviction. > Due > to our this terror soft approach, we are unable to fight terror to the > extent what actually we should do. > > I have never mentioned that Afsalguru should be given priority for > punishment because he belongs to minority, but due to terrorist act > conviction only. Whoever involved in this and even in the future any > religion should be treated as same for terror conviction. > > Afsalguru case is clear minor appeasement for not executing his conviction > and goes wrong message to terror groups and encourage them further. Legal > experts clearly says there is no such law to go with queue for death > sentence matter. Earlier such execution of death sentence carried out, out > of turn in the couple of occasions. > > Constitution of India (SC) has already convicted death sentence in 2006, > this cabinet for strange reason delaying it. So, this is clear minor > appeasement case Dear Kshemendra. This is where congress lack will to fight > terrorism. > > You personally oppose death sentence is altogether different issue. Our > constitution permits death sentence, so you argument at present is > irrelevant of blood thirsty animal from Indian point of view. It is > unfortunate that people like you oppose death sentence for the people who > is > blood thirsty for hundreds or thousands of people. You want to save the > life > of one person who engaged in blood bath and take lives of 100/1000 of > people!!! > > India is barbaric in your view by adopting death sentence than those nation > like US, China, Pakistan and many more are also barbaric for adopting this > law. This is about 70% of world population is barbaric according to you! > > Thanks > Bipin > > > > From: Kshmendra Kaul [mailto:kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com] > Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 4:10 PM > To: Bipin Trivedi > Cc: sarai-list > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > Dear Bipin > > You have missed the central point. The Constitution of India gives that > right to Ajmal Kasab and also to Afzal Guru. > > FYI Afzal Guru is not the only one who's appeal for waiver of 'death > penalty' is pending with the President. And most of the others are Hindus. > So stop obsessing about 'appeasement of minorities' in this case. > > The Constitution of India is not so petty that it will be changed just > because you or someone else or even if millions of Indians want to deny > Kasab the tiered rights to Courts and appeal to President. > > Bipin, one should not accuse others of behaving like blood-thirsty animals > and then become a blood-thirsty animal himself/herself. > > Kshmendra > > > --- On Fri, 5/7/10, Bipin Trivedi wrote: > > From: Bipin Trivedi > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > To: "'Kshmendra Kaul'" > Cc: "sarai-list" > Date: Friday, May 7, 2010, 3:37 PM > Dear Kshemendra, > > Parliament can and has right to make such decision if show will. But, > congress cannot show such will, who prolonged even Afsalguru conviction > keeping pending for so long for their vote bank politics. Comparison with > Shah Bano for the reason of vote bank politics only to appealing minor. > Reverting shah Bano verdict is classic example of minor appeasement and the > same case with Afsalguru and I am fear for Kasav also same thing might > happen. > > Thanks > Bipin > > > > > From: Kshmendra Kaul [mailto:kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com] > Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 1:35 PM > To: sarai-list; Bipin Trivedi > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > Dear Bipin > > A. I am against the death penalty for anyone for any crime whatsoever. I > believe the 'death penalty' is awarded in barbaric societies, and yes, > India > is still barbaric in many ways. > > B. You might disagree on the above. That does not change the opportunity > allowed in India for anyone convicted in a crime in a Lower Court to take > the matter to a Higher Cour. > > Since it is a question of a 'death penalty', Kasab has the right to > have his case heard by the Higher Courts right upto the Supreme Court. > After > that he has the right to appeal to the President for waiver of the 'death > penalty'. The Constitution of India provides that right. You cannot compare > Civil Law of the Shah Bano case witha 'death penalty' being awarded. > > No one can take that right away from Kasab. > > Kshmendra > > > --- On Thu, 5/6/10, Bipin Trivedi wrote: > > From: Bipin Trivedi > Subject: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > To: "sarai-list" > Date: Thursday, May 6, 2010, 3:33 PM > AS EXPECTED, KASAV RIGHTLY GOT DEATH SENTENCE. > > Though terrorist's Kasav case was crystal clear, but still we have gone for > about 17 months fair trial and proved that how transparent our judicial > system is unlike Pakistan. But, after this trial and judgment, he should > not > allow to appeal in the higher court and should be hanged in public > immediately without further judicial procedure. if Indira Gandhi (ex PM) > deny to obey court verdict and neglect law and Shah Banu case was revert > out > of law by parliament than why cannot this? India should show the world that > country cannot compromise in integrity and take hard action if required > like > open public death sentence. > > Thanks > Bipin > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- Rajen. From rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com Sat May 8 20:39:07 2010 From: rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com (Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi) Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 20:39:07 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: The results of your email commands In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Date: Sat, May 8, 2010 at 6:49 PM Subject: The results of your email commands To: rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com The results of your email command are provided below. Attached is your original message. - Results: Ignoring non-text/plain MIME parts You are already subscribed! - Unprocessed: my posts are post fixed by the list, may be freedom of caution against dissent.! -- Rajen. - Done. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi To: reader-list-request at sarai.net Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 18:49:05 +0530 Subject: Subscribe my posts are post fixed by the list, may be freedom of caution against dissent.! -- Rajen. -- Rajen. From aliens at dataone.in Sat May 8 21:12:14 2010 From: aliens at dataone.in (Bipin Trivedi) Date: Sat, 08 May 2010 21:12:14 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT In-Reply-To: <962018.57389.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <003601caee6e$c4ff0120$4efd0360$@in> <962018.57389.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000f01caeec5$08cbea70$1a63bf50$@in> Dear Kshemendra and Shuddha, You prefer life imprisonment instead of capital punishment, since that is the only alternative for capital punishment. So, terrorist or hard core criminal or rapists, poor country like India have to bear their life time expenses? Do you think it is practical solution? It is possible that for terrorist release, one more plane hijack drama will happen and all the passengers (150 to 200) boarded in it will have to pay their life since according to new parliament law there will be no release of any terrorist in exchange against hijacking. Have you thought on this? The lowest crime rate perhaps in gulf countries since from the beginning there are hard laws like public capital punishment or finger or other body part punishment. Lawers like Ram Jethmalani (who is fought for even many terrorist also), Harish Salve, even G. Parthsarthy also expressed their views about the fact that there is no such law exists to decide turn by turn. Turn by turn is not at all logical, logical means you think and decide with your mind for the priority in different and practical manner that is logical. Afsal himself made statement to decide death punishment soon and do not delay it for political game. Shuddha you don’t want to believe the SC judgment for Afsal then there is nothing to discuss in the matter. Your many thoughts are irrelevant and so this also. Anyway, you even do not want to believe terrorist captured from Azamgarh as a terrorists. Thanks Bipin From: Kshmendra Kaul [mailto:kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com] Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2010 7:38 PM To: Bipin Trivedi Cc: sarai-list Subject: RE: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT Dear Bipin   We are talking in circles now. I will try to make this my last post on this thread and you are most welcome to have the final say.   1. To answer the easier question. Yes, in my opinion, the countries including India, USA, China, Pakistan and whosoever else, even if they total to 99% of the World Population are BARBARIC in having the 'death penalty' as punishment for any crime whatsoever.       I hope you understand that I am not calling these countries 'barbaric' in their sum-total, but 'barbaric' with regards to death-penalty.   2. Yes our (Indian) Constitution permits the 'death penalty' and from my point of view that needs to be changed. And, because I want to see that changed therefore my argument is not irrelevant but it is a mirror for showing the barbarism of death-penalty existing in the Constitution and the blood-lust of those who are scream for anyone at all to be done to death for any crime whatsoever.   3. My (and presumably other 'people like me') opposing the 'death penalty' is not meant for saving one person but for saving every person who might be awarded the death sentence whether that person has killed 1 or a hundred or thousands.   4. I tried to explain to you in the last mail why the delay in execution of Afzal Guru is not 'minority appeasement' but I seem to have been unsuccessful.      There are reportedly 29 'mercy petitions' like that of Afzal Guru lying pending with the President of India.      Afzal Guru was sentenced to death in 2004.      Let me now give you some names of those who were awarded the death sentence before Afzal Guru and you might realise that there is no 'minority appeasement' in play.     Look at these names: Murugan; G. Perarivalan; Chinna Shanthan;  Davinder Singh Bhullar ;  Simon; Gnanprakasham; Meesekar Madaiah; Bilvendran; Gurdev Singh; Satnam Singh; Para Singh; Sarabjit Singh; Praveen Kumar      There is a rule followed that each one will await its turn for being accepted or being rejected. THIS IS IMPORTANT. You have said that "Legal experts clearly says there is no such law to go with queue for death sentence matter." Will you please tell me which "Legal Experts" But, isnt it logical that it should be turn by turn.       Your main argument for fast-tracking the execution of Afzal Guru is "One must separate terrorists conviction with other conviction. Due to our this terror soft approach, we are unable to fight terror to the extent what actually we should do."      You are conveying that putting Afzal Guru to death speedily will deter other terrorists from attacking India.      In this I disagree with you and let me tell you why. Bipin there is no evidence at all from any part of the World that executing the 'death sentence' for any kind of a crime leads to decrease in the incidence of that particular crime. If you have any such evidence please do share it. You can take the examples of the very countries you mentioned USA, China, Pakistan and you can add to that all other countries where the 'death penalty' is awarded and executed.   As I said earlier, you can have the final say.   Kshmendra   --- On Sat, 5/8/10, Bipin Trivedi wrote: From: Bipin Trivedi Subject: RE: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT To: "'Kshmendra Kaul'" Cc: "sarai-list" Date: Saturday, May 8, 2010, 10:54 AM Dear Kshemendra, I have not at all missed the central point. Politician go out of law for their selfish motto, but not for terror conviction. What's the reason? Can you tell? Just because of political mileage, nothing else. It's real problem that people like you did not understand this. Because they were punished as terrorists activity and so the special case and not because of their religion. One must separate terrorists conviction with other conviction. Due to our this terror soft approach, we are unable to fight terror to the extent what actually we should do. I have never mentioned that Afsalguru should be given priority for punishment because he belongs to minority, but due to terrorist act conviction only. Whoever involved in this and even in the future any religion should be treated as same for terror conviction. Afsalguru case is clear minor appeasement for not executing his conviction and goes wrong message to terror groups and encourage them further. Legal experts clearly says there is no such law to go with queue for death sentence matter. Earlier such execution of death sentence carried out, out of turn in the couple of occasions. Constitution of India (SC) has already convicted death sentence in 2006, this cabinet for strange reason delaying it. So, this is clear minor appeasement case Dear Kshemendra. This is where congress lack will to fight terrorism.  You personally oppose death sentence is altogether different issue. Our constitution permits death sentence, so you argument at present is irrelevant of blood thirsty animal from Indian point of view. It is unfortunate that people like you oppose death sentence for the people who is blood thirsty for hundreds or thousands of people. You want to save the life of one person who engaged in blood bath and take lives of 100/1000 of people!!! India is barbaric in your view by adopting death sentence than those nation like US, China, Pakistan and many more are also barbaric for adopting this law. This is about 70% of world population is barbaric according to you! Thanks Bipin From: Kshmendra Kaul [mailto:kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com] Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 4:10 PM To: Bipin Trivedi Cc: sarai-list Subject: RE: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT Dear Bipin   You have missed the central point. The Constitution of India gives that right to Ajmal Kasab and also to Afzal Guru.   FYI Afzal Guru is not the only one who's appeal for waiver of 'death penalty' is pending with the President. And most of the others are Hindus. So stop obsessing about 'appeasement of minorities' in this case.   The Constitution of India is not so petty that it will be changed just because you or someone else or even if millions of Indians want to deny Kasab the tiered rights to Courts and appeal to President.   Bipin, one should not accuse others of behaving like blood-thirsty animals and then become a blood-thirsty animal himself/herself.   Kshmendra     --- On Fri, 5/7/10, Bipin Trivedi wrote: From: Bipin Trivedi Subject: RE: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT To: "'Kshmendra Kaul'" Cc: "sarai-list" Date: Friday, May 7, 2010, 3:37 PM Dear Kshemendra,   Parliament can and has right to make such decision if show will. But, congress cannot show such will, who prolonged even Afsalguru conviction keeping pending for so long for their vote bank politics. Comparison with Shah Bano for the reason of vote bank politics only to appealing minor. Reverting shah Bano verdict is classic example of minor appeasement and the same case with Afsalguru and I am fear for Kasav also same thing might happen.   Thanks Bipin         From: Kshmendra Kaul [mailto:kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com] Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 1:35 PM To: sarai-list; Bipin Trivedi Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT   Dear Bipin   A. I am against the death penalty for anyone for any crime whatsoever. I believe the 'death penalty' is awarded in barbaric societies, and yes, India is still barbaric in many ways.   B. You might disagree on the above. That does not change the opportunity allowed in India for anyone convicted in a crime in a Lower Court to take the matter to a Higher Cour.         Since it is a question of a 'death penalty', Kasab has the right to have his case heard by the Higher Courts right upto the Supreme Court. After that he has the right to appeal to the President for waiver of the 'death penalty'. The Constitution of India provides that right. You cannot compare Civil Law of the Shah Bano case witha 'death penalty' being awarded.         No one can take that right away from Kasab.   Kshmendra      --- On Thu, 5/6/10, Bipin Trivedi wrote:   From: Bipin Trivedi Subject: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT To: "sarai-list" Date: Thursday, May 6, 2010, 3:33 PM AS EXPECTED, KASAV RIGHTLY GOT DEATH SENTENCE.   Though terrorist's Kasav case was crystal clear, but still we have gone for about 17 months fair trial and proved that how transparent our judicial system is unlike Pakistan. But, after this trial and judgment, he should not allow to appeal in the higher court and should be hanged in public immediately without further judicial procedure. if Indira Gandhi (ex PM) deny to obey court verdict and neglect law and Shah Banu case was revert out of law by parliament than why cannot this? India should show the world that country cannot compromise in integrity and take hard action if required like open public death sentence.   Thanks Bipin       _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>   From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Sat May 8 21:43:35 2010 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 17:13:35 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Price of documenting Individual identity in India-100 rupees In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Isn't it, Rajen and how nice is it that GOI does not seem to be discriminating against anyone in distributing public money. If you own a company, you get contracts and if you are illegal then a splendid opportunity to get your papers right, if you are legal, you get a plastic token, if you are a marketer than you may get access to data and if you have an education you get a job, if you don't you get an incentive Mumbai: The new project from Unique Identification Authority of India (UIDAI) will provide an identity to over one billion Indians. As a result it will also grant estimated 3,50,000 new jobs. http://www.siliconindia.com/shownews/UID_project_to_create_35_Lakh_new_jobs-nid-67737.html/1/2 From akmalik45 at yahoo.com Sat May 8 22:13:36 2010 From: akmalik45 at yahoo.com (A.K. Malik) Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 09:43:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT In-Reply-To: <436778.39847.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <11755.76743.qm@web112102.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Dear Mr Kaul, Still there are ways of keeping the convicted person from gallows by not acting on the file so you can circumvent the Great Constitution of India because some people have more 'rights' under this weak and pro-muslim Govt. Regards, (A.K.MALIK) --- On Fri, 5/7/10, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > From: Kshmendra Kaul > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > To: "sarai-list" , "Bipin Trivedi" > Date: Friday, May 7, 2010, 1:34 PM > Dear Bipin >   > A. I am against the death penalty for anyone for any crime > whatsoever. I believe the 'death penalty' is awarded in > barbaric societies, and yes, India is still barbaric in many > ways. >   > B. You might disagree on the above. That does not change > the opportunity allowed in India for anyone convicted in a > crime in a Lower Court to take the matter to a Higher > Cour.  >   >      Since it is a question of a 'death penalty', Kasab > has the right to have his case heard by the Higher Courts > right upto the Supreme Court. After that he has the right to > appeal to the President for waiver of the 'death penalty'. > The Constitution of India provides that right. You cannot > compare Civil Law of the Shah Bano case witha 'death > penalty' being awarded.  >   >      No one can take that right away from Kasab. >   > Kshmendra >    > > --- On Thu, 5/6/10, Bipin Trivedi > wrote: > > > From: Bipin Trivedi > Subject: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > To: "sarai-list" > Date: Thursday, May 6, 2010, 3:33 PM > > > AS EXPECTED, KASAV RIGHTLY GOT DEATH SENTENCE. > > Though terrorist's Kasav case was crystal clear, but still > we have gone for > about 17 months fair trial and proved that how transparent > our judicial > system is unlike Pakistan. But, after this trial and > judgment, he should not > allow to appeal in the higher court and should be hanged in > public > immediately without further judicial procedure. if Indira > Gandhi (ex PM) > deny to obey court verdict and neglect law and Shah Banu > case was revert out > of law by parliament than why cannot this? India should > show the world that > country cannot compromise in integrity and take hard action > if required like > open public death sentence. > > Thanks > Bipin > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > >       > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From ysaeed7 at yahoo.com Sun May 9 05:41:46 2010 From: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com (Yousuf) Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 17:11:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Are our radioactive devices safe? Message-ID: <38722.57291.qm@web51405.mail.re2.yahoo.com> After the accident at Delhi involving radioactive scrap, one needs to ask many questions about our radioactive safety. I am also giving links at the bottom about major safety hazard in Jadugoda (Jharkhand) uranium mines that drastically affected the tribals there for years (much worse than what happened in Delhi), and was hushed down by the officials and media. ---- Are our radioactive devices safe? Subodh Varma , TNN, May 9, 2010, 02.11am IST With all the cobalt-60 pencils now reported to be safe, the immediate threat of deadly radioactive material on the loose in the country appears to have receded. But the real question that the embarrassing Delhi University episode raises is — how safe are the radioactive devices currently in use across the country? Over 12,000 radioactive sources were in civilian use in 2009 all over the country, in at least 4398 institutions, according to available data from the Atomic Energy Regulatory Board (AERB). Not counted are X-ray units, which reportedly number a staggering 50,000. Use of radioactive sources in medical, industrial and research fields has become widespread in India as the number of nuclear reactors (from which radio-isotopes like cobalt-60 emerge) has increased. Just five years ago, radioactive materials were being used in about 3268 institutions and about 35,000 X-ray units. In some specific kinds of uses, the numbers are expanding dramatically. Gamma irradiators for agricultural uses have almost doubles from 8 in 2004 to 15 in 2009, while the number of nucleonic gauges has increased six-fold from 1365 to 7850 in this period. Consumer products that use radioactive materials (smoke detectors, electron capture etc.) have increased from a mere 85 to a whopping 851 currently. Some of these do not have threatening levels of radioactivity. Very detailed regulations, on par with global standards, exist for installing, operating, transporting or decommissioning all such devices. The users are responsible for implementing these regulations, and reporting to AERB. So, the bottomline is: AERB is giving approvals to, supervising the functioning of and even monitoring closures of 5000 medical, industrial and research units, and 50,000 X-ray units. Their responsibility doesn't end with these. It also monitors 17 nuclear power plants, and is supervising construction of 6 others. It is also regulating 11 other related facilities like the heavy water units. Even the country's five uranium mines and two uranium mills are under AERB supervision. Transportation too has to be done under AERB supervision. An estimated 80,000 transportation applications were cleared by AERB in 2008. The Board of Radiation and Isotope Technology itself sent 52,000 consignments of isotopes to various users. For this cradle-to-grave responsibility, the AERB currently has just 170 scientific and technical staff. Their numbers have been increasing - in 2004, there were 112 such qualified people. But even after expansion, it is impossible for 170 persons to monitor thousands of radioactive sources spread all over the country. Add up all this frenetic activity, and a sad truth emerges — AERB regulatory work has largely become reduced to paperwork. Regulatory inspections are supposed to be carried out by AERB prior to installation of any device, during its operation and even when it is being decommissioned. In 2004, they carried out 662 regulatory inspections. In 2008-09 the number of inspections had declined to 110. Experts within the atomic energy establishment say that manpower needs to be augmented to cope with the work. Other experts, who have experience of working with DAE or its bodies say that what is needed is a decentralization of responsibilities, backed up by training new personnel. Even for the less onerous task of periodic inspections of X-ray units, only one state government has accepted responsibility — Kerala. So, while users like DU have to be very careful in using radioactive sources, the regulatory machinery will have to get its act together. Paperwork is not going to stop radiation. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Are-our-radioactive-devices-safe/articleshow/5908448.cms ----------- http://jadugoda.jharkhand.org.in/2009/05/adivasi-live-under-nuclear-terror-in.html http://www.indiaenvironmentportal.org.in/node/32083 From c.anupam at gmail.com Sun May 9 11:17:02 2010 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 11:17:02 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT In-Reply-To: <11755.76743.qm@web112102.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <436778.39847.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <11755.76743.qm@web112102.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: have punishments solved the problems of the world? have they or they havent? if they have not then i think this way of treating the deviants must stop because it doesnt bear any good, neither to the society nor to the affected individuals. it has been proven punishments are nothing but a great ego satisfaction for those who have been affected. a reassurance for those who stand by the laws. but nothing more than that. if there is anything else apart from that momentary ego satisfaction derived out of punishing wrong doers, then please tell me. is it not comparable to the ego satisfaction or the burning need to kill someone for the sake of anything subscribed by the wrong doers? i am sure it is. it the other side of the same coin. at the same time, please do not misinterpret my position here by saying that i am speaking in favour of those who have committed crimes of killing people. i am just taking a position against one particular system of laws which actually has been evidently derived from barbaric kingdoms of the past. i am not even hinting at a lawless world. but our legal machineries must be rescued from this universal, all pervasive nature of justice. why cant justice be more personal? why does it have to include everybody in it? apart from shock and dismay that i felt after 26/11 attacks, i never personally felt anything for kasab or for those who planned these strikes. a certain impulsive reaction would have been to beat him up and take revenge, feel like a hero who has killed the beast. upon contemplation, i realise what i am. a miniscule little dot in the scheme of these things. kasab has more popularity (or un-popularity) ratings than i have. for police, he is a prized criminal. for legal machinery, a sacrificial goat in the altar of humanity. for media, a punching bag, may be a source of daily bread. even if i want to beat him up for his crimes, i am sure i would not be allowed to. therefore the only available interpretation with which i can be avenged is that the state, on my behalf, by keeping him alive so that they can hang him by his neck one day will deliver justice to me and several other indians. how amazing is my state. this is my ego satisfaction, i will be thrilled to see that man hang by his neck. but men or women for paltry sums of money or for similar ego adventures aligned to their identities would continue to bomb establishments. they have done so, whether you like it or not. what is this big deal about capital punishment then? From akmalik45 at yahoo.com Sun May 9 11:54:59 2010 From: akmalik45 at yahoo.com (A.K. Malik) Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 23:24:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT In-Reply-To: <962018.57389.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <282594.39445.qm@web112105.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Dear Mr Kaul, I am sorry to interrupt the thread between you and Mr Bipin, but after reading your post couldn't resist writing back. 1&2.There is no harm in having an opinion/point of view different than what is the law in force.So long as it is not changed,the punishment would be based on the Supreme Court verdict that death penalty should be given only in rarest of rare cases and this is what has been done by the Judge in the Kasab case.To give the convicted person a safeguard against a wrong conviction of death penalty,it is mandatory for the sentence to be ratified in the next higher court, in this case Bombay High Court. If HC doesn't consider it as rearest of the rare case then it is a different matter. 3.Ask the relatives of the persons killed by the barbaric act of the terrorist who want the fellow to be hanged in public/shot dead without trial even but the law of the land has prevailed and must prevail. 4. Everyone on the road knows why Afzal Guru is not being hanged.Anything rest is all bullshit.You have written that"There is a rule followed that each one will await its turn for being accepted or being rejected. THIS IS IMPORTANT.",just give a refernce to this rule so that we also become aware.Even a clerk in Govt Office knows to prioritise which file is to be sent early and which later but the Delhi Govt can't make up its mind to send comments on Afzal's petition in 5 years.Even if such a rule exists who stops the Govt from changing it by executive directions-because no such rule exists at all. I say almost all such "mercy petitions" have some or the other contacts in political and bureaucracy and are intentionally being dragged. So long live Afzal because the earlier petitions will never be decided in his life time.May be if Kasab also gets the same stature as Afzal, he will also live on. Yes, we belong to Gandhiji's land so we don't do anything to people who come and kill us and would rather say come kill us and we will give you immunity from being hanged and even punished and spend crores of rupees for your safety. Long live Indian Politics! With regards, (A.K.MALIK) --- On Sat, 5/8/10, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > From: Kshmendra Kaul > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > To: "Bipin Trivedi" > Cc: "sarai-list" > Date: Saturday, May 8, 2010, 7:37 PM > Dear Bipin >   > We are talking in circles now. I will try to make this my > last post on this thread and you are most welcome to have > the final say. >   > 1. To answer the easier question. Yes, in my opinion, the > countries including India, USA, China, Pakistan and > whosoever else, even if they total to 99% of the World > Population are BARBARIC in having the 'death penalty' as > punishment for any crime whatsoever. >   >     I hope you understand that I am not calling these > countries 'barbaric' in their sum-total, but 'barbaric' with > regards to death-penalty. >   > 2. Yes our (Indian) Constitution permits the 'death > penalty' and from my point of view that needs to be changed. > And, because I want to see that changed therefore my > argument is not irrelevant but it is a mirror for showing > the barbarism of death-penalty existing in the Constitution > and the blood-lust of those who are scream for anyone at > all to be done to death for any crime whatsoever. >   > 3. My (and presumably other 'people like me') opposing the > 'death penalty' is not meant for saving one person but for > saving every person who might be awarded the death sentence > whether that person has killed 1 or a hundred or thousands. >   > 4. I tried to explain to you in the last mail why the delay > in execution of Afzal Guru is not 'minority appeasement' but > I seem to have been unsuccessful. >   >    There are reportedly 29 'mercy petitions' like that > of Afzal Guru lying pending with the President of India. >   >    Afzal Guru was sentenced to death in 2004. >   >    Let me now give you some names of those who were > awarded the death sentence before Afzal Guru and you might > realise that there is no 'minority appeasement' in play. >   >   Look at these names: Murugan; G. Perarivalan; Chinna > Shanthan;  Davinder Singh > Bhullar ;  Simon; Gnanprakasham; Meesekar > Madaiah; Bilvendran; Gurdev Singh; Satnam Singh; Para > Singh; Sarabjit Singh; Praveen Kumar >   >    There is a rule followed that each one will await its > turn for being accepted or being rejected. THIS IS > IMPORTANT. You have said that "Legal experts clearly says > there is no such law to go with queue for death sentence > matter." Will you please tell me which "Legal Experts" But, > isnt it logical that it should be turn by turn.  >   >    Your main argument for fast-tracking the execution of > Afzal Guru is "One must separate terrorists conviction with > other conviction. Due to our this terror soft approach, we > are unable to fight terror to the extent what actually we > should do." >   >    You are conveying that putting Afzal Guru to death > speedily will deter other terrorists from attacking India. >   >    In this I disagree with you and let me tell you why. > Bipin there is no evidence at all from any part of the World > that executing the 'death sentence' for any kind of a crime > leads to decrease in the incidence of that particular crime. > If you have any such evidence please do share it. You can > take the examples of the very countries you mentioned USA, > China, Pakistan and you can add to that all other countries > where the 'death penalty' is awarded and executed. >   > As I said earlier, you can have the final say. >   > Kshmendra >   > > --- On Sat, 5/8/10, Bipin Trivedi > wrote: > > > From: Bipin Trivedi > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > To: "'Kshmendra Kaul'" > Cc: "sarai-list" > Date: Saturday, May 8, 2010, 10:54 AM > > > Dear Kshemendra, > > I have not at all missed the central point. Politician go > out of law for > their selfish motto, but not for terror conviction. What's > the reason? Can > you tell? Just because of political mileage, nothing else. > It's real problem > that people like you did not understand this. Because they > were punished as > terrorists activity and so the special case and not because > of their > religion. One must separate terrorists conviction with > other conviction. Due > to our this terror soft approach, we are unable to fight > terror to the > extent what actually we should do. > > I have never mentioned that Afsalguru should be given > priority for > punishment because he belongs to minority, but due to > terrorist act > conviction only. Whoever involved in this and even in the > future any > religion should be treated as same for terror conviction. > > Afsalguru case is clear minor appeasement for not executing > his conviction > and goes wrong message to terror groups and encourage them > further. Legal > experts clearly says there is no such law to go with queue > for death > sentence matter. Earlier such execution of death sentence > carried out, out > of turn in the couple of occasions. > > Constitution of India (SC) has already convicted death > sentence in 2006, > this cabinet for strange reason delaying it. So, this is > clear minor > appeasement case Dear Kshemendra. This is where congress > lack will to fight > terrorism.  > > You personally oppose death sentence is altogether > different issue. Our > constitution permits death sentence, so you argument at > present is > irrelevant of blood thirsty animal from Indian point of > view. It is > unfortunate that people like you oppose death sentence for > the people who is > blood thirsty for hundreds or thousands of people. You want > to save the life > of one person who engaged in blood bath and take lives of > 100/1000 of > people!!! > > India is barbaric in your view by adopting death sentence > than those nation > like US, China, Pakistan and many more are also barbaric > for adopting this > law. This is about 70% of world population is barbaric > according to you! > > Thanks > Bipin > > > > From: Kshmendra Kaul [mailto:kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com] > > Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 4:10 PM > To: Bipin Trivedi > Cc: sarai-list > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > Dear Bipin >   > You have missed the central point. The Constitution of > India gives that > right to Ajmal Kasab and also to Afzal Guru. >   > FYI Afzal Guru is not the only one who's appeal for waiver > of 'death > penalty' is pending with the President. And most of the > others are Hindus. > So stop obsessing about 'appeasement of minorities' in this > case. >   > The Constitution of India is not so petty that it will be > changed just > because you or someone else or even if millions of Indians > want to deny > Kasab the tiered rights to Courts and appeal to President. >   > Bipin, one should not accuse others of behaving > like blood-thirsty animals > and then become a blood-thirsty animal himself/herself. >   > Kshmendra >   >   > --- On Fri, 5/7/10, Bipin Trivedi > wrote: > > From: Bipin Trivedi > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > To: "'Kshmendra Kaul'" > Cc: "sarai-list" > Date: Friday, May 7, 2010, 3:37 PM > Dear Kshemendra, >   > Parliament can and has right to make such decision if show > will. But, > congress cannot show such will, who prolonged even > Afsalguru conviction > keeping pending for so long for their vote bank politics. > Comparison with > Shah Bano for the reason of vote bank politics only to > appealing minor. > Reverting shah Bano verdict is classic example of minor > appeasement and the > same case with Afsalguru and I am fear for Kasav also same > thing might > happen. >   > Thanks > Bipin >   >   >   >   > From: Kshmendra Kaul [mailto:kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com] > > Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 1:35 PM > To: sarai-list; Bipin Trivedi > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT >   > Dear Bipin >   > A. I am against the death penalty for anyone for any crime > whatsoever. I > believe the 'death penalty' is awarded in barbaric > societies, and yes, India > is still barbaric in many ways. >   > B. You might disagree on the above. That does not change > the opportunity > allowed in India for anyone convicted in a crime in a Lower > Court to take > the matter to a Higher Cour.  >   >      Since it is a question of a 'death penalty', Kasab > has the right to > have his case heard by the Higher Courts right upto the > Supreme Court. After > that he has the right to appeal to the President for waiver > of the 'death > penalty'. The Constitution of India provides that right. > You cannot compare > Civil Law of the Shah Bano case witha 'death penalty' being > awarded.  >   >      No one can take that right away from Kasab. >   > Kshmendra >    >   > --- On Thu, 5/6/10, Bipin Trivedi > wrote: >   > From: Bipin Trivedi > Subject: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > To: "sarai-list" > Date: Thursday, May 6, 2010, 3:33 PM > AS EXPECTED, KASAV RIGHTLY GOT DEATH SENTENCE. >   > Though terrorist's Kasav case was crystal clear, but still > we have gone for > about 17 months fair trial and proved that how transparent > our judicial > system is unlike Pakistan. But, after this trial and > judgment, he should not > allow to appeal in the higher court and should be hanged in > public > immediately without further judicial procedure. if Indira > Gandhi (ex PM) > deny to obey court verdict and neglect law and Shah Banu > case was revert out > of law by parliament than why cannot this? India should > show the world that > country cannot compromise in integrity and take hard action > if required like > open public death sentence. >   > Thanks > Bipin >   >   >   > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >   > > > > > >       > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From c.anupam at gmail.com Sun May 9 12:00:17 2010 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 12:00:17 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT In-Reply-To: <282594.39445.qm@web112105.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <962018.57389.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <282594.39445.qm@web112105.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: dear malik, why have you sent me a ticket? for wht joy? anupam On Sun, May 9, 2010 at 11:54 AM, A.K. Malik wrote: > Dear Mr Kaul, > I am sorry to interrupt the thread between you and Mr Bipin, > but after reading your post couldn't resist writing back. > 1&2.There is no harm in having an opinion/point of view different than what > is the law in force.So long as it is not changed,the punishment would be > based on the Supreme Court verdict that death penalty should be given only > in rarest of rare cases and this is what has been done by the Judge in the > Kasab case.To give the convicted person a safeguard against a wrong > conviction of death penalty,it is mandatory for the sentence to be ratified > in the next higher court, in this case Bombay High Court. > If HC doesn't consider it as rearest of the rare case then it is a > different matter. > 3.Ask the relatives of the persons killed by the barbaric act of the > terrorist who want the fellow to be hanged in public/shot dead without trial > even but the law of the land has prevailed and must prevail. > 4. Everyone on the road knows why Afzal Guru is not being hanged.Anything > rest is all bullshit.You have written that"There is a rule followed that > each one will await its turn for being accepted or being rejected. THIS IS > IMPORTANT.",just give a refernce to this rule so that we also become > aware.Even a clerk in Govt Office knows to prioritise which file is to be > sent early and which later but the Delhi Govt can't make up its mind to send > comments on Afzal's petition in 5 years.Even if such a rule exists who stops > the Govt from changing it by executive directions-because no such rule > exists at all. I say almost all such "mercy petitions" have some or the > other contacts in political and bureaucracy and are intentionally being > dragged. So long live Afzal because the earlier petitions will never be > decided in his life time.May be if Kasab also gets the same stature as > Afzal, he will also live on. > Yes, we belong to Gandhiji's land so we don't do anything to people who > come and kill us and would rather say come kill us and we will give you > immunity from being hanged and even punished and spend crores of rupees for > your safety. > Long live Indian Politics! > With regards, > > (A.K.MALIK) > > > --- On Sat, 5/8/10, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > > From: Kshmendra Kaul > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > To: "Bipin Trivedi" > > Cc: "sarai-list" > > Date: Saturday, May 8, 2010, 7:37 PM > > Dear Bipin > > > > We are talking in circles now. I will try to make this my > > last post on this thread and you are most welcome to have > > the final say. > > > > 1. To answer the easier question. Yes, in my opinion, the > > countries including India, USA, China, Pakistan and > > whosoever else, even if they total to 99% of the World > > Population are BARBARIC in having the 'death penalty' as > > punishment for any crime whatsoever. > > > > I hope you understand that I am not calling these > > countries 'barbaric' in their sum-total, but 'barbaric' with > > regards to death-penalty. > > > > 2. Yes our (Indian) Constitution permits the 'death > > penalty' and from my point of view that needs to be changed. > > And, because I want to see that changed therefore my > > argument is not irrelevant but it is a mirror for showing > > the barbarism of death-penalty existing in the Constitution > > and the blood-lust of those who are scream for anyone at > > all to be done to death for any crime whatsoever. > > > > 3. My (and presumably other 'people like me') opposing the > > 'death penalty' is not meant for saving one person but for > > saving every person who might be awarded the death sentence > > whether that person has killed 1 or a hundred or thousands. > > > > 4. I tried to explain to you in the last mail why the delay > > in execution of Afzal Guru is not 'minority appeasement' but > > I seem to have been unsuccessful. > > > > There are reportedly 29 'mercy petitions' like that > > of Afzal Guru lying pending with the President of India. > > > > Afzal Guru was sentenced to death in 2004. > > > > Let me now give you some names of those who were > > awarded the death sentence before Afzal Guru and you might > > realise that there is no 'minority appeasement' in play. > > > > Look at these names: Murugan; G. Perarivalan; Chinna > > Shanthan; Davinder Singh > > Bhullar ; Simon; Gnanprakasham; Meesekar > > Madaiah; Bilvendran; Gurdev Singh; Satnam Singh; Para > > Singh; Sarabjit Singh; Praveen Kumar > > > > There is a rule followed that each one will await its > > turn for being accepted or being rejected. THIS IS > > IMPORTANT. You have said that "Legal experts clearly says > > there is no such law to go with queue for death sentence > > matter." Will you please tell me which "Legal Experts" But, > > isnt it logical that it should be turn by turn. > > > > Your main argument for fast-tracking the execution of > > Afzal Guru is "One must separate terrorists conviction with > > other conviction. Due to our this terror soft approach, we > > are unable to fight terror to the extent what actually we > > should do." > > > > You are conveying that putting Afzal Guru to death > > speedily will deter other terrorists from attacking India. > > > > In this I disagree with you and let me tell you why. > > Bipin there is no evidence at all from any part of the World > > that executing the 'death sentence' for any kind of a crime > > leads to decrease in the incidence of that particular crime. > > If you have any such evidence please do share it. You can > > take the examples of the very countries you mentioned USA, > > China, Pakistan and you can add to that all other countries > > where the 'death penalty' is awarded and executed. > > > > As I said earlier, you can have the final say. > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > --- On Sat, 5/8/10, Bipin Trivedi > > wrote: > > > > > > From: Bipin Trivedi > > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > To: "'Kshmendra Kaul'" > > Cc: "sarai-list" > > Date: Saturday, May 8, 2010, 10:54 AM > > > > > > Dear Kshemendra, > > > > I have not at all missed the central point. Politician go > > out of law for > > their selfish motto, but not for terror conviction. What's > > the reason? Can > > you tell? Just because of political mileage, nothing else. > > It's real problem > > that people like you did not understand this. Because they > > were punished as > > terrorists activity and so the special case and not because > > of their > > religion. One must separate terrorists conviction with > > other conviction. Due > > to our this terror soft approach, we are unable to fight > > terror to the > > extent what actually we should do. > > > > I have never mentioned that Afsalguru should be given > > priority for > > punishment because he belongs to minority, but due to > > terrorist act > > conviction only. Whoever involved in this and even in the > > future any > > religion should be treated as same for terror conviction. > > > > Afsalguru case is clear minor appeasement for not executing > > his conviction > > and goes wrong message to terror groups and encourage them > > further. Legal > > experts clearly says there is no such law to go with queue > > for death > > sentence matter. Earlier such execution of death sentence > > carried out, out > > of turn in the couple of occasions. > > > > Constitution of India (SC) has already convicted death > > sentence in 2006, > > this cabinet for strange reason delaying it. So, this is > > clear minor > > appeasement case Dear Kshemendra. This is where congress > > lack will to fight > > terrorism. > > > > You personally oppose death sentence is altogether > > different issue. Our > > constitution permits death sentence, so you argument at > > present is > > irrelevant of blood thirsty animal from Indian point of > > view. It is > > unfortunate that people like you oppose death sentence for > > the people who is > > blood thirsty for hundreds or thousands of people. You want > > to save the life > > of one person who engaged in blood bath and take lives of > > 100/1000 of > > people!!! > > > > India is barbaric in your view by adopting death sentence > > than those nation > > like US, China, Pakistan and many more are also barbaric > > for adopting this > > law. This is about 70% of world population is barbaric > > according to you! > > > > Thanks > > Bipin > > > > > > > > From: Kshmendra Kaul [mailto:kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com] > > > > Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 4:10 PM > > To: Bipin Trivedi > > Cc: sarai-list > > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > > > Dear Bipin > > > > You have missed the central point. The Constitution of > > India gives that > > right to Ajmal Kasab and also to Afzal Guru. > > > > FYI Afzal Guru is not the only one who's appeal for waiver > > of 'death > > penalty' is pending with the President. And most of the > > others are Hindus. > > So stop obsessing about 'appeasement of minorities' in this > > case. > > > > The Constitution of India is not so petty that it will be > > changed just > > because you or someone else or even if millions of Indians > > want to deny > > Kasab the tiered rights to Courts and appeal to President. > > > > Bipin, one should not accuse others of behaving > > like blood-thirsty animals > > and then become a blood-thirsty animal himself/herself. > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > --- On Fri, 5/7/10, Bipin Trivedi > > wrote: > > > > From: Bipin Trivedi > > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > To: "'Kshmendra Kaul'" > > Cc: "sarai-list" > > Date: Friday, May 7, 2010, 3:37 PM > > Dear Kshemendra, > > > > Parliament can and has right to make such decision if show > > will. But, > > congress cannot show such will, who prolonged even > > Afsalguru conviction > > keeping pending for so long for their vote bank politics. > > Comparison with > > Shah Bano for the reason of vote bank politics only to > > appealing minor. > > Reverting shah Bano verdict is classic example of minor > > appeasement and the > > same case with Afsalguru and I am fear for Kasav also same > > thing might > > happen. > > > > Thanks > > Bipin > > > > > > > > > > From: Kshmendra Kaul [mailto:kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com] > > > > Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 1:35 PM > > To: sarai-list; Bipin Trivedi > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > > > Dear Bipin > > > > A. I am against the death penalty for anyone for any crime > > whatsoever. I > > believe the 'death penalty' is awarded in barbaric > > societies, and yes, India > > is still barbaric in many ways. > > > > B. You might disagree on the above. That does not change > > the opportunity > > allowed in India for anyone convicted in a crime in a Lower > > Court to take > > the matter to a Higher Cour. > > > > Since it is a question of a 'death penalty', Kasab > > has the right to > > have his case heard by the Higher Courts right upto the > > Supreme Court. After > > that he has the right to appeal to the President for waiver > > of the 'death > > penalty'. The Constitution of India provides that right. > > You cannot compare > > Civil Law of the Shah Bano case witha 'death penalty' being > > awarded. > > > > No one can take that right away from Kasab. > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > --- On Thu, 5/6/10, Bipin Trivedi > > wrote: > > > > From: Bipin Trivedi > > Subject: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > To: "sarai-list" > > Date: Thursday, May 6, 2010, 3:33 PM > > AS EXPECTED, KASAV RIGHTLY GOT DEATH SENTENCE. > > > > Though terrorist's Kasav case was crystal clear, but still > > we have gone for > > about 17 months fair trial and proved that how transparent > > our judicial > > system is unlike Pakistan. But, after this trial and > > judgment, he should not > > allow to appeal in the higher court and should be hanged in > > public > > immediately without further judicial procedure. if Indira > > Gandhi (ex PM) > > deny to obey court verdict and neglect law and Shah Banu > > case was revert out > > of law by parliament than why cannot this? India should > > show the world that > > country cannot compromise in integrity and take hard action > > if required like > > open public death sentence. > > > > Thanks > > Bipin > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > > city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with subscribe > > in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > > city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > From aliens at dataone.in Sun May 9 12:13:46 2010 From: aliens at dataone.in (Bipin Trivedi) Date: Sun, 09 May 2010 12:13:46 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] HONEST EFFORT AND APPROACH FOR 'SAMAJIK SAMRASTA' FOR DALIT Message-ID: <001f01caef42$f9fdf2d0$edf9d870$@in> The Congress' lies have hurt not only my feelings and that of Shri Modi but also of the entire Dalit community. The video recording and transcripts are available on the website and DVD for anybody to watch. The editor of leading English daily 'The Hindu', Shri N. Ram, has also exposed the Congress leaders' feigning concern for the Dalits. We cannot expect anything better from the Congress party, which had insulted Dr Babasaheb Ambedkar throughout his life, and had always used Dalits as vote-bank. Dr Ambedkar had wanted a casteless society, but the Congress continued to sow the seeds of hatred among different castes and races ever since its inception. The full text of Dalit borne Shri Kishore Makwana's letter...Can be read in following link http://www.narendramodi.com/ Dear All, I am writing this letter to acquaint you with the following facts: I was born in a Dalit family. My life is full of oppression and deprivation the Dalits have faced for centuries. It is therefore natural for one to express the feelings of pangs the Dalits experience. I am lucky to have fought and overcame the circumstances and am in a profession to write and express. I have witnessed Chief Minister Shri Narendra Modi's thoughts and deeds from close quarters for two-and-a-half decades. He has devoted his life in the service of the oppressed and the last man in the last mile. His task is making the Dalits economically self-reliant, free them from exploitation and establish the rule of equanimity, 'samras-ekras', in the state. In a way, his efforts are directed at realizing the dreams of Dr Babasaheb Ambedkar. I have not seen any bias or prejudice in Shri Modi's thoughts and deeds. I felt it as my duty to publicize his sense of duty before the public at large through writings and speeches. It was the manifestation of such thinking that the book, titled 'Samajik Samrasta', was created. This is not my first book. I have published 13 books, including that on Birsa Munda, Sant Ravidas, 'Samar-Nahi-Samrasta', Rashtrabhakta Dr Babasaheb Ambedkar and Swami Vivekanand. It was a matter of pride for me that my fourteenth book, 'Samajik Samrasta' was dedicated to the public at a function on April 26, 2010 at 6.30 p.m. in presence of Swami Sacchidanand, Chief Minister Shri Narendra Modi and noted poet-writer Suresh Dalal. The entire function was conducted in full glory and decorum. It received rave reviews in the media. It was the most eventful day and memorable event for a Dalit creative writer like me. But the brightest pages were blackened by the Congress party, with an intention to malign a Dalit. Shri Modi did not speak ill about the community in his speech, but the Congress reacted by putting imaginary words into Shri Modi's mouth which he did not utter. It exposed the Congress leaders' attempt to malign a solemn function to mark social equality with lies. The Congress' lies have hurt not only my feelings and that of Shri Modi but also of the entire Dalit community. The video recording and transcripts are available on the website and DVD for anybody to watch. The editor of leading English daily 'The Hindu', Shri N. Ram, has also exposed the Congress leaders' feigning concern for the Dalits. We cannot expect anything better from the Congress party, which had insulted Dr Babasaheb Ambedkar throughout his life, and had always used Dalits as vote-bank. Dr Ambedkar had wanted a casteless society, but the Congress continued to sow the seeds of hatred among different castes and races ever since its inception. Dr Ambedkar's book on what the Congress did for the untouchables is worth reading. It chronicles and describes a number of events that uncovers the true face of anti-Dalit Congress. The people of Kavitha village in the Ahmedabad district had once outcast untouchables. Dr Ambedkar came to Kavitha and intervened. Instead of asking the upper caste people to take the untouchables along, the Congress leaders asked the untouchables to leave the village. When he had arrived from Mumbai at Kalupur railway station, the Congressmen heaped insults on him by waving black flags. There are a number of such occasions of political parties like the Congress inflicting mental injuries on Dr Ambedkar, using the Dalits as vote-bank. Instead of alleviating the pains of the oppressed-deprived-exploited-suppressed Dalits, the Congress had only spread rumours and canards against thoughtful people like Shri Narendrabhai Modi fighting for the cause of the Dalits. It is perhaps natural for the Congress to express vengeance against them who oppose the formers' anti-Dalit policies. I would also like to take this opportunity to draw your attention to vested interests and the need to recognise such divisive forces bent on maligning Shri Modi for the last eight years. I am conveying my views through this letter and expect you to share the views in the same spirit. With thanks, Yours truly Kishore Makwana, Editor of book 'Samajik Samrasta' Editor of periodical 'Namaskar'. From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Sun May 9 12:39:27 2010 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 08:09:27 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] A note on imagining the current NID program as a form of 'slavery'. Message-ID: Dear All, The argument that UID is good because it will create jobs is doing rounds. This argument is directed at middle class audiences. I think in a country where there is a paucity of jobs, an initiative which promises jobs must be given due consideration. The intent behind it- is nice. We need jobs. However I wonder whether should we allow our money to be used for any initiative which promises to create jobs? Should we not look at UID from a broad level and try to find whether the existence of such an institution is morally just and good? I understand that if we were to scrap UID ( given the problems it is facing it might be sooner than we think ) then it will cause a lot of distress, emotional duress and strain just like the hundreds of thousands of middle class people who were working for various corporations in England had to undergo a lot of distress, duress and emotional upheaval when the slave trade was abolished. This is of course not to suggest that UID is like slave trade, that would be ridiculous, but could we not think that, just like slave traders used to forcefully capture Human beings and turn them into commodities to be bought and to be sold and to be enslaved and to be shipped and to be restricted in their movement, so too, in its 'modern' Avataar, is there not something deeply sinister about the role which UID is playing? Is it not that UID is engaging in an act of capturing not Human beings but an aspect of Human beings, i.e. their personal identities, either by diktat (you will have to register) or by economic seduction (you will get an 'incentive' of 100 rupees) or by threat to use force ( if you do not register, then you may have to undergo difficulties). Will UID not shackle our identities and put it behind digital cages? Just like slaves used to be tossed around the world without their consent will the people behind UID not ship our personal identities across networks in India and possibly abroad and toss it here and there without our consent? Just like a slave ship had an economic value so too, will this digital ship of identities not have an economic value? Just like a slave was the property of a slave owner so too, will not our individual identities become a property of UID? Just like slave ships were subject to attacks by pirates so too, will not these digital ships carrying our identities be subject to constant attacks by digital pirates like hackers? Just like slaves could be bought and sold so too will not our personal identities be bought and sold? Just like slavery snatched the dignity of human beings so too will not this enslavement of personal identities not snatch away the dignity of who we are? Just like slaves were used as lab rats for all sorts of psedu-scientific experiments like Phrenology and Intelligence Quotient to produce a mis-measure of man will not the data gathered from harvesting our individual identities not used for policy experiments to produce a mis-measure of our identities? In the course of some other research work which I am pursuing for sometime, I came across a petition filed by the manufacturers belonging to the City of Birmingham arguing against the abolition of slave trade. This petition was filed in 1789. Petition Against the Abolition of Slave Trade: A Petition of the Manufacturers of Goods, calculated for the Trade to Africa, in the Town and Neighborhood of Birmingham, was presented to the House and Read; Setting forth that the Petitioners observe, by the Votes, a Resolution of the House to take into Consideration the Circumstances of the African Slave Trade, complained of in Certain petitions, presented to the House for an Abolition of the said Trade; and that a very considerable part of various Manufactures, in which the petitioners are engaged, are adopted to and disposed of, for the African Trade, and are not saleable in any other market; and that several thousands are employed in, and maintained by, such Manufactures, and the Petitioners are fully persuaded, should the said Trade be Abolished, the Petitioners will be injured in their Fortunes and their Property, to a very alarming Extent, and many Thousands, who depend on them for Employment or Subsistence, be brought into Poverty and Distress: And therefore Praying the House to take the Premises into their most serious Consideration and to adopt such Measures for the Preservation of the Said Trade, as to the House shall seem expedient. http://old.antislavery.org/breakingthesilence/images/slave_routes/pictures/uk-petition2.jpg Please have a look at the language deployed to formulate the argument, please look very carefully at the manner in which this appeal is calibrated and then please reflect about the nature of UID and the role it is playing. I may be completely wrong in questioning UID in this manner and therefore I would welcome any comment to set me on the right track. Warm regards Taha From yasir.media at gmail.com Sun May 9 16:30:13 2010 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?eWFzaXIgftmK2Kcg2LPYsQ==?=) Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 16:00:13 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Public Enemy vs Arizona: Sonic Immigration In-Reply-To: <24521732.1273327952042.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <24521732.1273327952042.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: You've diagnosed this one properly. Josh goes back to the thingist list around 2001-4. i see he's still spouting and needessly small-mindedly arguing. its best to just ignore him and not engage. best yasir On Sat, May 8, 2010 at 7:12 PM, Paul D. Miller wrote: > Hello to Josh and the Sarai list. I apologize about the delay in > communication, but I had a concert in Khartoum, Sudan, and there were > thousands of people at the show, and it was a demonstration of some of the > unique qualities of why reaching out past the norms of the kind of paranoid > scenarios Josh has been spouting on the list is exactly what I think the > world needs more of. > > To those on the list that haven't heard the track I did with Public Enemy, > you can hear it here: > > http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html > > And yo Josh - screw your crappy music taste... > > Josh - why do you think that the Phoenix Suns has changed their name to > "Los Suns": > Team owner Robert Sarver says the Spanish jersey is meant to, quote, "honor > our Latino community and the diversity of our league, the state of Arizona > and our nation." > > The Arizona reactionary stance towards immigration is what I think is a > betrayal of the country, and I believe that naive people like the right wing > types who espouse it have no idea about the economics of what they're > talking about. The trouble is that as a larger political ideology, its > hateful and divisive message is encouraging ever more misguided madness. > > Some examples: > > Read more: > http://newsbusters.org/blogs/scott-whitlock/2010/05/05/msnbcs-dylan-ratigan-gives-kudos-arizona-basketball-team-protesting-#ixzz0nLQzAkyL > > The problem is this: you can't argue with right wing lunatics like Josh - > facts don't matter. We learned this during the Bush era, and we've seen the > Tea Party idiots doing the same thing. I belong in what I like to call, > ironically, after Bush, "the reality based community." Interdependence in a > hyper globalized economy is a basic economic fact. You cannot shut it down > without massive consequences, and amusingly enough, I bet you'd be hard > pressed to find even a right wing economist who would disagree with that > basic assumption. Because I cannot argue with Josh (even politely), without > being called as he has called me a "racist (!!!???)" and a "betrayer of my > country" (sound like Fox News stupidity!?), I can only say - in this forum > focused on South Asia, that the kind of anti-immigrant stupidity that he > espouses is so dumb as to be beyond the range of coherent dialog. > > I cannot believe that reactionary people like Josh have no sense of > history, or even a willingness to get to facts, but hey, in the America of > Fox News and idiots like Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh, I'd encounter a moron > like Josh on the Sarai reader list (one could argue that he's a digital > immigrant on this list, but the irony is too much...) ... nothing is > shocking I guess. > > I have to admit - I am so disgusted by my fellow Arizona American's > reactionary and ultimately idiotic legislation about immigration. It boggles > the mind - where do you think they came from? They are all immigrants. > Anyway, not that these kinds of links matter to Josh, but hey... I'm just an > African American racist who betrays my country and despises Rush Limbaugh, > Glenn Beck, Fox News Zombies, and right wing idiots like Sarah Palin. > > The Left needs to push back on this kind of stuff. HARD. And, hopefully, it > will. > > > Supporting links: > > http://www.truthout.org/david-sirota-i-want-my-country-back-the-motto-mad-men59256 > > Why the Left has no Response to the Right Wing Lie Machine: > http://www.crisispapers.org/essays10p/nolocontendere.htm > > Why Arizona isn't Crazy, Just wrong: > > http://www.alternet.org/immigration/146736/why_arizona_isn't_crazy,_just_wrong > > Arizona Immigration Law Divides Law Enforcement: > http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/22/us/22immig.html > > This is my last comment on this thread. > Paul > > > > -----Original Message----- > >From: Joshua Zeidner > >Sent: May 6, 2010 2:07 AM > >To: reader-list at sarai.net > >Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Public Enemy vs Arizona: Sonic Immigration > > > > Well, I just got back from the Phoenix rally. If any of you think that > >the SB1070 bill is about racial profiling, you are out of your mind. The > >bulk of the crowd was a semi-violent mob with Mexican and _USSR_ flags (no > >joke). They were proudly displaying their concept of history, which is > that > >of right to ownership of the American southwest. Many of them were > clearly > >mafia thugs. > > > > -jmz > > > > > > > >On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 9:48 AM, TaraPrakash > wrote: > > > >> "I was at the capitol yesterday, there was a nice young African American > >> girl who was vocally against the pro-Mexico demonstrators. She came > down > >> here because she couldn't find a job in LA." > >> > >> Now, isn't there some kind of irony? Mexicans don't take so much risk of > >> crossing the border because of plenty of jobs on their side of the > border. > >> Jobwise the state that seems to be doing the best is Texas, now can > someone > >> remind the history of Texas? Is it somehow connected with Mexico? > >> > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joshua Zeidner" < > jjzeidner at gmail.com> > >> To: > >> Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2010 11:38 AM > >> Subject: [Reader-list] Public Enemy vs Arizona: Sonic Immigration > >> > >> > >> On the contrary, the African Americans are getting played by left > wing > >>> and the likes of Al Sharpton this time. > >>> > >>> I was at the capitol yesterday, there was a nice young African > American > >>> girl who was vocally against the pro-Mexico demonstrators. She came > down > >>> here because she couldn't find a job in LA. She shouted: "this is the > new > >>> color of conservatism". > >>> > >>> We've never had slavery in Arizona. It was formed after the civil > war. > >>> The African Americans played a critical role in the establishment of > our > >>> state. > >>> > >>> -jmz > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 11:44 PM, Paul D. Miller >>> >wrote: > >>> > >>> I'm transferring at Frankfurt airport, and took a quick glance at this > >>>> video. I find it sad and appalling. > >>>> > >>>> It's galvinized me as an African American to build even more bridges > >>>> between communities. > >>>> > >>>> Minorities only get played against one another when this kind of thing > >>>> happens, and the end result is everyone loses. > >>>> > >>>> This kind of stuff is so dumb, it's ridiculous. > >>>> > >>>> It really saddens me to see fellow African Americans being played by > >>>> right > >>>> wing types. > >>>> > >>>> Paul > >>>> > >>>> Sent from my iPhone > >>>> > >>>> On May 5, 2010, at 7:02 AM, Udai Malhotra > >>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Dear Joshua, > >>>> > >>>> What is the point you are trying to make by linking to this video? If > >>>> anything it is reinforcing that you are on some straight ignorant > shit. > >>>> > >>>> - Udai > >>>> > >>>> On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 9:55 AM, Joshua Zeidner < > > >>>> jjzeidner at gmail.com> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcmjPgyN36g&NR=1 > >>>>> > >>>>> -jmz > >>>>> > >>>>> On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 1:28 PM, Paul D. Miller < < > anansi1 at earthlink.net > >>>>> > > >>>>> anansi1 at earthlink.net>wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> > Again - this is strange non sense. > >>>>> > 1) the track is a free giveaway so no paycheck etc > >>>>> > > >>>>> > Josh - this is stupid. Either up the level of the discourse or come > up > >>>>> with > >>>>> > something more interesting. > >>>>> > > >>>>> > I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone that would say either > me > >>>>> or > >>>>> > Chuck D are racist, and no, Flava Flav isn't on the track. So... > >>>>> > > >>>>> > What's your point? I'm just getting on a flight to Khartoum, Sudan > for > >>>>> > a > >>>>> > project with ex child soldiers doing electronic music. > >>>>> > > >>>>> > Josh - if you would like to dialog about the merits of Arizona's > >>>>> > immigration, that's ok. But being an asshole, as we've seen in > > >>>>> Arizona, > >>>>> > doesn't solve anyone's problems. > >>>>> > > >>>>> > By the way way, no, I'm not racist, and no, Public Enemy isn't > racist. > >>>>> > > >>>>> > And I have nothing to do with Al Sharpton. > >>>>> > > >>>>> > Paul > >>>>> > > >>>>> > Sent from my iPhone > >>>>> > > >>>>> > On May 4, 2010, at 4:02 PM, Joshua Zeidner < > >>>>> jjzeidner at gmail.com> wrote: > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > sorry for getting all up in your grill hommie, but racism cuts > both > >>>>> ways. > >>>>> > > >>>>> > maybe you can get Flavor Flav all up in hizouse too? > >>>>> > < > >>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzhpB1X-6ok> > >>>>> > > >>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzhpB1X-6ok > >>>>> > > >>>>> > it's pretty simple that illegal aliens are modern day slavery and > > > >>>>> they > >>>>> > destroy the lives of white and black Americans alike. > Unfortunately > >>>>> we've > >>>>> > got selllouts like you who are willing to say anything for a > paycheck. > >>>>> > > >>>>> > check ya later holmes, jmz > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 12:48 PM, Paul D. Miller < > << > >>>>> anansi1 at earthlink.net> > >>>>> anansi1 at earthlink.net> > >>>>> > anansi1 at earthlink.net> wrote: > >>>>> > > >>>>> >> Very strange and reactionary response. > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> Joshua - can you please enlighten me on my 'racist politics' and > my > >>>>> >> relationship to Al Sharpton? > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> You're sounding a bit shrill and to be completely honest, totally > >>>>> >> irrational. > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> Paul > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> Sent from my iPhone > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> On May 4, 2010, at 3:22 PM, Joshua Zeidner < < < > jjzeidner at gmail.com> > >>>>> jjzeidner at gmail.com> > >>>>> >> jjzeidner at gmail.com> wrote: > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> I'm writing this from the Arizona Capitol. > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> Paul, we don't want your racist politics here. Al Sharpton has > >>>>> nothing > >>>>> >> in common with the illegal aliens. You are not only a traitor to > >> > >>>>> your > >>>>> >> country but a traitor to your own people. How can you turn > against a > >>>>> >> country that has given you so much? > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> we do remember history. We remember it very well. > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> Check it: >> << > >>>>> http://www.buffalosoldiermuseum.com/?linkid=410&webid=1000> > >>>>> http://www.buffalosoldiermuseum.com/?linkid=410&webid=1000><< > >>>>> http://www.buffalosoldiermuseum.com/?linkid=410&webid=1000> > >>>>> http://www.buffalosoldiermuseum.com/?linkid=410&webid=1000> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> http://www.buffalosoldiermuseum.com/?linkid=410&webid=1000 > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> -jmz > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 12:10 PM, Paul D. Miller < >> << > >>>>> anansi1 at earthlink.net> > >>>>> anansi1 at earthlink.net>< anansi1 at earthlink.net > > > >>>>> > >>>>> >> anansi1 at earthlink.net> wrote: > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >>> Hey people - I just finished a studio session with Chuck D from > >>> > >>>>> Public > >>>>> >>> Enemy. In the wake of Republican Governor Jan Brewer's appalling > >>>>> >>> anti-immigrant law, me and Chuck D were rappin' and we decided to > >>>>> >>> put > >>>>> >>> together an update of his classic track "By The Time I get To > >>>>> Arizona." > >>>>> >>> > >>>>> >>> You can download the track from here: > >>>>> >>> > >>>>> >>> < > >>>>> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html><< > >>>>> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html> > >>>>> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html> > >>>>> >>> > >>>>> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html > >>>>> >>> > >>>>> >>> > >>>>> >>> Anyone who knows about hip hop from the early 90's remembers John > >>>>> >>> McCain's unwillingness to endorse creating a local version of > Martin > >>>>> Luther > >>>>> >>> King's birthday. The update here is a 21st century look in the > rear > >>>>> view > >>>>> >>> mirror. The cliché that "those who don't learn from the past are > >>>>> doomed to > >>>>> >>> repeat it" still holds sway in our hyper amnesiac culture. I > remixed > >>>>> D.W. > >>>>> >>> Griffith's infamous film Birth of a Nation with a bit of Public > >>> > >>>>> Enemy > >>>>> in > >>>>> >>> mind, and later on, they named an e.p. with the same name as my > >>>>> project. Me > >>>>> >>> and Chuck D have done several projects in the past around >>> > >>>>> progressive, > >>>>> non > >>>>> >>> knucklehead hip hop. > >>>>> >>> > >>>>> >>> Please feel free to download this track and pass it around. We > are > >>>>> >>> the > >>>>> >>> media. Feel free to pass it around! > >>>>> >>> > >>>>> >>> By the way, this is a mashup, and it's basically not really for > >>> > >>>>> sale. > >>>>> I > >>>>> >>> just took a riff from Philly Sound >>> (<< > >>>>> http://www.funkadelphiarecords.com> > >>>>> http://www.funkadelphiarecords.com>< < > >>>>> http://www.funkadelphiarecords.com> > >>>>> > >>>>> http://www.funkadelphiarecords.com> > >>>>> >>> www.funkadelphiarecords.com > ), > >>>>> >>> and > >>>>> flipped it. The result, is what you > >>>>> >>> hear here. It's free, and open. No $!! > >>>>> >>> You can download a better resolution version of the track here: > >>>>> >>> > >>>>> >>> < > >>>>> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html><< > >>>>> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html> > >>>>> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html> > >>>>> >>> > >>>>> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html > >>>>> >>> > >>>>> >>> Check it! > >>>>> >>> > >>>>> >>> Paul > >>>>> >>> > >>>>> >>> > >>>>> >>> > >>>>> >>> > >>>>> >>> > >>>>> >>> > >>>>> >>> > >>>>> >>> > >>>>> >>> > >>>>> >>> > >>>>> >>> > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > -- > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> -- > >>>>> _________________________________________ > >>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>>>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>>>> To subscribe: send an email to > >>>>> reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > >>>>> To unsubscribe: > > >>>>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>>>> List archive: < > >>>>> https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> _________________________________________ > >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>> subscribe in the subject header. > >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >>> > >> > >> > > > > > >-- > >_________________________________________ > >reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >Critiques & Collaborations > >To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > >To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From aliens at dataone.in Sun May 9 17:10:59 2010 From: aliens at dataone.in (Bipin Trivedi) Date: Sun, 09 May 2010 17:10:59 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Price of documenting Individual identity in India-100 rupees In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000f01caef6c$7f17c0d0$7d474270$@in> Dear Taha, I have been reading sincere oppose for this UID project. Can you highlight your points of opposition? Thanks Bipin -----Original Message----- From: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net [mailto:reader-list-bounces at sarai.net] On Behalf Of Taha Mehmood Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2010 8:22 PM To: Sarai Reader-list Subject: [Reader-list] Price of documenting Individual identity in India-100 rupees Dear All, It seems that the much publicized Census exercise of the GOI is getting murkier. In a country where it is not unusual for a political party to pay money to buy a vote, it seems that the of Government of India is now thinking of governance of identities as some sort of a 'game'. If registration to this whole MNIC alias UID alias Aadhar alias smart card alias identity token alias digital key is a supposed to be a voluntary process, then why is the planning commission thinking of paying an 'incentive' of 100 rupees to get people register their iris, retina and fingerprint scans? What sort of dharma is this which makes a government to leverage a person's lack of privilege in order to seduce him to part the most intrinsic parts of his identity? Are we to believe that not a single paisa of Rs3000 crore apportioned to give 100 Rupees as incentive will not find its way into someone else's pocket? Is this not a loot of public funds? -And the finance commission plans to spend another Rs 3,000 crore to give Rs 100 as an incentive to every ‘below-poverty-line’ citizen as a motivation to get enrolled.- Please read the full story here- http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/infotech/ites/Govt-to-introduce-bill-to–regulate-unique-ID-project/articleshow/5887626.cms in sadness :-( Taha _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From akmalik45 at yahoo.com Sun May 9 17:10:29 2010 From: akmalik45 at yahoo.com (A.K. Malik) Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 04:40:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT Message-ID: <576505.94573.qm@web112101.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Dear Mr Chakravartty,                                      I have not sent you any ticket. Please check up, it is perhaps coming from Mr Kaul's mail which I have also got for the last two mails addressed to him and I am also not able to make up what it is. "Hello, This is an automated response to inform you that your question has been entered into our system, and will be reviewed shortly. Your ticket has been submitted into the "General Support" department. We will respond to you as soon as possible. Please keep this information, and use it when refering to your ticket: Ticket subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT Ticket number: 24487705 Ticket link: https://secure.mpcustomer.com/ticket.php?ticket=24487705" I hope you understand. Regards, (A.K.MALIK) --- On Sun, 5/9/10, anupam chakravartty wrote: From: anupam chakravartty Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT To: "A.K. Malik" , "sarai list" Date: Sunday, May 9, 2010, 12:00 PM dear malik,   why have you sent me a ticket? for wht joy?   anupam On Sun, May 9, 2010 at 11:54 AM, A.K. Malik wrote: Dear Mr Kaul,              I am sorry to interrupt the thread between you and Mr Bipin, but after reading your post couldn't resist writing back. 1&2.There is no harm in having an opinion/point of view different than what is the law in force.So long as it is not changed,the punishment would be based on the Supreme Court verdict that death penalty should be given only in rarest of rare cases and this is what has been done by the Judge in the Kasab case.To give the convicted person a safeguard against a wrong conviction of death penalty,it is mandatory for the sentence to be ratified in the next higher court, in this case Bombay High Court. If HC doesn't consider it as rearest of the rare case then it is a  different matter. 3.Ask the relatives of the persons killed by the barbaric act of the terrorist who want the fellow to be hanged in public/shot dead without trial even but the law of the land has prevailed and must prevail. 4. Everyone on the road knows why Afzal Guru is not being hanged.Anything rest is all bullshit.You have written that"There is a rule followed that each one will await its turn for being accepted or being rejected. THIS IS  IMPORTANT.",just give a refernce to this rule so that we also become aware.Even a clerk in Govt Office knows to prioritise which file is to be sent early and which later but the Delhi Govt can't make up its mind to send comments on Afzal's petition in 5 years.Even if such a rule exists who stops the Govt from changing it by executive directions-because no such rule exists at all. I say almost all such "mercy petitions" have some or the other contacts in political and bureaucracy and are intentionally being dragged. So long live Afzal because the earlier petitions will never be decided in his life time.May be if Kasab also gets the same stature as Afzal, he will also live on. Yes, we belong to Gandhiji's land so we don't do anything to people who come and kill us and would rather say come kill us and we will give you immunity from being hanged and even punished and spend crores of rupees for your safety. Long live Indian Politics! With regards, (A.K.MALIK) --- On Sat, 5/8/10, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > From: Kshmendra Kaul > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > To: "Bipin Trivedi" > Cc: "sarai-list" > Date: Saturday, May 8, 2010, 7:37 PM > Dear Bipin >   > We are talking in circles now. I will try to make this my > last post on this thread and you are most welcome to have > the final say. >   > 1. To answer the easier question. Yes, in my opinion, the > countries including India, USA, China, Pakistan and > whosoever else, even if they total to 99% of the World > Population are BARBARIC in having the 'death penalty' as > punishment for any crime whatsoever. >   >     I hope you understand that I am not calling these > countries 'barbaric' in their sum-total, but 'barbaric' with > regards to death-penalty. >   > 2. Yes our (Indian) Constitution permits the 'death > penalty' and from my point of view that needs to be changed. > And, because I want to see that changed therefore my > argument is not irrelevant but it is a mirror for showing > the barbarism of death-penalty existing in the Constitution > and the blood-lust of those who are scream for anyone at > all to be done to death for any crime whatsoever. >   > 3. My (and presumably other 'people like me') opposing the > 'death penalty' is not meant for saving one person but for > saving every person who might be awarded the death sentence > whether that person has killed 1 or a hundred or thousands. >   > 4. I tried to explain to you in the last mail why the delay > in execution of Afzal Guru is not 'minority appeasement' but > I seem to have been unsuccessful. >   >    There are reportedly 29 'mercy petitions' like that > of Afzal Guru lying pending with the President of India. >   >    Afzal Guru was sentenced to death in 2004. >   >    Let me now give you some names of those who were > awarded the death sentence before Afzal Guru and you might > realise that there is no 'minority appeasement' in play. >   >   Look at these names: Murugan; G. Perarivalan; Chinna > Shanthan;  Davinder Singh > Bhullar ;  Simon; Gnanprakasham; Meesekar > Madaiah; Bilvendran; Gurdev Singh; Satnam Singh; Para > Singh; Sarabjit Singh; Praveen Kumar >   >    There is a rule followed that each one will await its > turn for being accepted or being rejected. THIS IS > IMPORTANT. You have said that "Legal experts clearly says > there is no such law to go with queue for death sentence > matter." Will you please tell me which "Legal Experts" But, > isnt it logical that it should be turn by turn.  >   >    Your main argument for fast-tracking the execution of > Afzal Guru is "One must separate terrorists conviction with > other conviction. Due to our this terror soft approach, we > are unable to fight terror to the extent what actually we > should do." >   >    You are conveying that putting Afzal Guru to death > speedily will deter other terrorists from attacking India. >   >    In this I disagree with you and let me tell you why. > Bipin there is no evidence at all from any part of the World > that executing the 'death sentence' for any kind of a crime > leads to decrease in the incidence of that particular crime. > If you have any such evidence please do share it. You can > take the examples of the very countries you mentioned USA, > China, Pakistan and you can add to that all other countries > where the 'death penalty' is awarded and executed. >   > As I said earlier, you can have the final say. >   > Kshmendra >   > > --- On Sat, 5/8/10, Bipin Trivedi > wrote: > > > From: Bipin Trivedi > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > To: "'Kshmendra Kaul'" > Cc: "sarai-list" > Date: Saturday, May 8, 2010, 10:54 AM > > > Dear Kshemendra, > > I have not at all missed the central point. Politician go > out of law for > their selfish motto, but not for terror conviction. What's > the reason? Can > you tell? Just because of political mileage, nothing else. > It's real problem > that people like you did not understand this. Because they > were punished as > terrorists activity and so the special case and not because > of their > religion. One must separate terrorists conviction with > other conviction. Due > to our this terror soft approach, we are unable to fight > terror to the > extent what actually we should do. > > I have never mentioned that Afsalguru should be given > priority for > punishment because he belongs to minority, but due to > terrorist act > conviction only. Whoever involved in this and even in the > future any > religion should be treated as same for terror conviction. > > Afsalguru case is clear minor appeasement for not executing > his conviction > and goes wrong message to terror groups and encourage them > further. Legal > experts clearly says there is no such law to go with queue > for death > sentence matter. Earlier such execution of death sentence > carried out, out > of turn in the couple of occasions. > > Constitution of India (SC) has already convicted death > sentence in 2006, > this cabinet for strange reason delaying it. So, this is > clear minor > appeasement case Dear Kshemendra. This is where congress > lack will to fight > terrorism.  > > You personally oppose death sentence is altogether > different issue. Our > constitution permits death sentence, so you argument at > present is > irrelevant of blood thirsty animal from Indian point of > view. It is > unfortunate that people like you oppose death sentence for > the people who is > blood thirsty for hundreds or thousands of people. You want > to save the life > of one person who engaged in blood bath and take lives of > 100/1000 of > people!!! > > India is barbaric in your view by adopting death sentence > than those nation > like US, China, Pakistan and many more are also barbaric > for adopting this > law. This is about 70% of world population is barbaric > according to you! > > Thanks > Bipin > > > > From: Kshmendra Kaul [mailto:kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com] > > Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 4:10 PM > To: Bipin Trivedi > Cc: sarai-list > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > Dear Bipin >   > You have missed the central point. The Constitution of > India gives that > right to Ajmal Kasab and also to Afzal Guru. >   > FYI Afzal Guru is not the only one who's appeal for waiver > of 'death > penalty' is pending with the President. And most of the > others are Hindus. > So stop obsessing about 'appeasement of minorities' in this > case. >   > The Constitution of India is not so petty that it will be > changed just > because you or someone else or even if millions of Indians > want to deny > Kasab the tiered rights to Courts and appeal to President. >   > Bipin, one should not accuse others of behaving > like blood-thirsty animals > and then become a blood-thirsty animal himself/herself. >   > Kshmendra >   >   > --- On Fri, 5/7/10, Bipin Trivedi > wrote: > > From: Bipin Trivedi > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > To: "'Kshmendra Kaul'" > Cc: "sarai-list" > Date: Friday, May 7, 2010, 3:37 PM > Dear Kshemendra, >   > Parliament can and has right to make such decision if show > will. But, > congress cannot show such will, who prolonged even > Afsalguru conviction > keeping pending for so long for their vote bank politics. > Comparison with > Shah Bano for the reason of vote bank politics only to > appealing minor. > Reverting shah Bano verdict is classic example of minor > appeasement and the > same case with Afsalguru and I am fear for Kasav also same > thing might > happen. >   > Thanks > Bipin >   >   >   >   > From: Kshmendra Kaul [mailto:kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com] > > Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 1:35 PM > To: sarai-list; Bipin Trivedi > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT >   > Dear Bipin >   > A. I am against the death penalty for anyone for any crime > whatsoever. I > believe the 'death penalty' is awarded in barbaric > societies, and yes, India > is still barbaric in many ways. >   > B. You might disagree on the above. That does not change > the opportunity > allowed in India for anyone convicted in a crime in a Lower > Court to take > the matter to a Higher Cour.  >   >      Since it is a question of a 'death penalty', Kasab > has the right to > have his case heard by the Higher Courts right upto the > Supreme Court. After > that he has the right to appeal to the President for waiver > of the 'death > penalty'. The Constitution of India provides that right. > You cannot compare > Civil Law of the Shah Bano case witha 'death penalty' being > awarded.  >   >      No one can take that right away from Kasab. >   > Kshmendra >    >   > --- On Thu, 5/6/10, Bipin Trivedi > wrote: >   > From: Bipin Trivedi > Subject: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > To: "sarai-list" > Date: Thursday, May 6, 2010, 3:33 PM > AS EXPECTED, KASAV RIGHTLY GOT DEATH SENTENCE. >   > Though terrorist's Kasav case was crystal clear, but still > we have gone for > about 17 months fair trial and proved that how transparent > our judicial > system is unlike Pakistan. But, after this trial and > judgment, he should not > allow to appeal in the higher court and should be hanged in > public > immediately without further judicial procedure. if Indira > Gandhi (ex PM) > deny to obey court verdict and neglect law and Shah Banu > case was revert out > of law by parliament than why cannot this? India should > show the world that > country cannot compromise in integrity and take hard action > if required like > open public death sentence. >   > Thanks > Bipin >   >   >   > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: >   > > > > > >       > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: From aliens at dataone.in Sun May 9 17:15:55 2010 From: aliens at dataone.in (Bipin Trivedi) Date: Sun, 09 May 2010 17:15:55 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT In-Reply-To: <576505.94573.qm@web112101.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <576505.94573.qm@web112101.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001001caef6d$2f61e920$8e25bb60$@in> I have also got the same mail on clicking reply mail and everyone getting such mails. Perhaps some new system procedure adopted or system error. -----Original Message----- From: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net [mailto:reader-list-bounces at sarai.net] On Behalf Of A.K. Malik Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 5:10 PM To: anupam chakravartty Cc: Sarai List Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT Dear Mr Chakravartty, I have not sent you any ticket. Please check up, it is perhaps coming from Mr Kaul's mail which I have also got for the last two mails addressed to him and I am also not able to make up what it is. "Hello, This is an automated response to inform you that your question has been entered into our system, and will be reviewed shortly. Your ticket has been submitted into the "General Support" department. We will respond to you as soon as possible. Please keep this information, and use it when refering to your ticket: Ticket subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT Ticket number: 24487705 Ticket link: https://secure.mpcustomer.com/ticket.php?ticket=24487705" I hope you understand. Regards, (A.K.MALIK) --- On Sun, 5/9/10, anupam chakravartty wrote: From: anupam chakravartty Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT To: "A.K. Malik" , "sarai list" Date: Sunday, May 9, 2010, 12:00 PM dear malik, why have you sent me a ticket? for wht joy? anupam On Sun, May 9, 2010 at 11:54 AM, A.K. Malik wrote: Dear Mr Kaul, I am sorry to interrupt the thread between you and Mr Bipin, but after reading your post couldn't resist writing back. 1&2.There is no harm in having an opinion/point of view different than what is the law in force.So long as it is not changed,the punishment would be based on the Supreme Court verdict that death penalty should be given only in rarest of rare cases and this is what has been done by the Judge in the Kasab case.To give the convicted person a safeguard against a wrong conviction of death penalty,it is mandatory for the sentence to be ratified in the next higher court, in this case Bombay High Court. If HC doesn't consider it as rearest of the rare case then it is a different matter. 3.Ask the relatives of the persons killed by the barbaric act of the terrorist who want the fellow to be hanged in public/shot dead without trial even but the law of the land has prevailed and must prevail. 4. Everyone on the road knows why Afzal Guru is not being hanged.Anything rest is all bullshit.You have written that"There is a rule followed that each one will await its turn for being accepted or being rejected. THIS IS IMPORTANT.",just give a refernce to this rule so that we also become aware.Even a clerk in Govt Office knows to prioritise which file is to be sent early and which later but the Delhi Govt can't make up its mind to send comments on Afzal's petition in 5 years.Even if such a rule exists who stops the Govt from changing it by executive directions-because no such rule exists at all. I say almost all such "mercy petitions" have some or the other contacts in political and bureaucracy and are intentionally being dragged. So long live Afzal because the earlier petitions will never be decided in his life time.May be if Kasab also gets the same stature as Afzal, he will also live on. Yes, we belong to Gandhiji's land so we don't do anything to people who come and kill us and would rather say come kill us and we will give you immunity from being hanged and even punished and spend crores of rupees for your safety. Long live Indian Politics! With regards, (A.K.MALIK) --- On Sat, 5/8/10, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > From: Kshmendra Kaul > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > To: "Bipin Trivedi" > Cc: "sarai-list" > Date: Saturday, May 8, 2010, 7:37 PM > Dear Bipin > > We are talking in circles now. I will try to make this my > last post on this thread and you are most welcome to have > the final say. > > 1. To answer the easier question. Yes, in my opinion, the > countries including India, USA, China, Pakistan and > whosoever else, even if they total to 99% of the World > Population are BARBARIC in having the 'death penalty' as > punishment for any crime whatsoever. > > I hope you understand that I am not calling these > countries 'barbaric' in their sum-total, but 'barbaric' with > regards to death-penalty. > > 2. Yes our (Indian) Constitution permits the 'death > penalty' and from my point of view that needs to be changed. > And, because I want to see that changed therefore my > argument is not irrelevant but it is a mirror for showing > the barbarism of death-penalty existing in the Constitution > and the blood-lust of those who are scream for anyone at > all to be done to death for any crime whatsoever. > > 3. My (and presumably other 'people like me') opposing the > 'death penalty' is not meant for saving one person but for > saving every person who might be awarded the death sentence > whether that person has killed 1 or a hundred or thousands. > > 4. I tried to explain to you in the last mail why the delay > in execution of Afzal Guru is not 'minority appeasement' but > I seem to have been unsuccessful. > > There are reportedly 29 'mercy petitions' like that > of Afzal Guru lying pending with the President of India. > > Afzal Guru was sentenced to death in 2004. > > Let me now give you some names of those who were > awarded the death sentence before Afzal Guru and you might > realise that there is no 'minority appeasement' in play. > > Look at these names: Murugan; G. Perarivalan; Chinna > Shanthan; Davinder Singh > Bhullar ; Simon; Gnanprakasham; Meesekar > Madaiah; Bilvendran; Gurdev Singh; Satnam Singh; Para > Singh; Sarabjit Singh; Praveen Kumar > > There is a rule followed that each one will await its > turn for being accepted or being rejected. THIS IS > IMPORTANT. You have said that "Legal experts clearly says > there is no such law to go with queue for death sentence > matter." Will you please tell me which "Legal Experts" But, > isnt it logical that it should be turn by turn. > > Your main argument for fast-tracking the execution of > Afzal Guru is "One must separate terrorists conviction with > other conviction. Due to our this terror soft approach, we > are unable to fight terror to the extent what actually we > should do." > > You are conveying that putting Afzal Guru to death > speedily will deter other terrorists from attacking India. > > In this I disagree with you and let me tell you why. > Bipin there is no evidence at all from any part of the World > that executing the 'death sentence' for any kind of a crime > leads to decrease in the incidence of that particular crime. > If you have any such evidence please do share it. You can > take the examples of the very countries you mentioned USA, > China, Pakistan and you can add to that all other countries > where the 'death penalty' is awarded and executed. > > As I said earlier, you can have the final say. > > Kshmendra > > > --- On Sat, 5/8/10, Bipin Trivedi > wrote: > > > From: Bipin Trivedi > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > To: "'Kshmendra Kaul'" > Cc: "sarai-list" > Date: Saturday, May 8, 2010, 10:54 AM > > > Dear Kshemendra, > > I have not at all missed the central point. Politician go > out of law for > their selfish motto, but not for terror conviction. What's > the reason? Can > you tell? Just because of political mileage, nothing else. > It's real problem > that people like you did not understand this. Because they > were punished as > terrorists activity and so the special case and not because > of their > religion. One must separate terrorists conviction with > other conviction. Due > to our this terror soft approach, we are unable to fight > terror to the > extent what actually we should do. > > I have never mentioned that Afsalguru should be given > priority for > punishment because he belongs to minority, but due to > terrorist act > conviction only. Whoever involved in this and even in the > future any > religion should be treated as same for terror conviction. > > Afsalguru case is clear minor appeasement for not executing > his conviction > and goes wrong message to terror groups and encourage them > further. Legal > experts clearly says there is no such law to go with queue > for death > sentence matter. Earlier such execution of death sentence > carried out, out > of turn in the couple of occasions. > > Constitution of India (SC) has already convicted death > sentence in 2006, > this cabinet for strange reason delaying it. So, this is > clear minor > appeasement case Dear Kshemendra. This is where congress > lack will to fight > terrorism. > > You personally oppose death sentence is altogether > different issue. Our > constitution permits death sentence, so you argument at > present is > irrelevant of blood thirsty animal from Indian point of > view. It is > unfortunate that people like you oppose death sentence for > the people who is > blood thirsty for hundreds or thousands of people. You want > to save the life > of one person who engaged in blood bath and take lives of > 100/1000 of > people!!! > > India is barbaric in your view by adopting death sentence > than those nation > like US, China, Pakistan and many more are also barbaric > for adopting this > law. This is about 70% of world population is barbaric > according to you! > > Thanks > Bipin > > > > From: Kshmendra Kaul [mailto:kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com] > > Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 4:10 PM > To: Bipin Trivedi > Cc: sarai-list > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > Dear Bipin > > You have missed the central point. The Constitution of > India gives that > right to Ajmal Kasab and also to Afzal Guru. > > FYI Afzal Guru is not the only one who's appeal for waiver > of 'death > penalty' is pending with the President. And most of the > others are Hindus. > So stop obsessing about 'appeasement of minorities' in this > case. > > The Constitution of India is not so petty that it will be > changed just > because you or someone else or even if millions of Indians > want to deny > Kasab the tiered rights to Courts and appeal to President. > > Bipin, one should not accuse others of behaving > like blood-thirsty animals > and then become a blood-thirsty animal himself/herself. > > Kshmendra > > > --- On Fri, 5/7/10, Bipin Trivedi > wrote: > > From: Bipin Trivedi > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > To: "'Kshmendra Kaul'" > Cc: "sarai-list" > Date: Friday, May 7, 2010, 3:37 PM > Dear Kshemendra, > > Parliament can and has right to make such decision if show > will. But, > congress cannot show such will, who prolonged even > Afsalguru conviction > keeping pending for so long for their vote bank politics. > Comparison with > Shah Bano for the reason of vote bank politics only to > appealing minor. > Reverting shah Bano verdict is classic example of minor > appeasement and the > same case with Afsalguru and I am fear for Kasav also same > thing might > happen. > > Thanks > Bipin > > > > > From: Kshmendra Kaul [mailto:kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com] > > Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 1:35 PM > To: sarai-list; Bipin Trivedi > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > Dear Bipin > > A. I am against the death penalty for anyone for any crime > whatsoever. I > believe the 'death penalty' is awarded in barbaric > societies, and yes, India > is still barbaric in many ways. > > B. You might disagree on the above. That does not change > the opportunity > allowed in India for anyone convicted in a crime in a Lower > Court to take > the matter to a Higher Cour. > > Since it is a question of a 'death penalty', Kasab > has the right to > have his case heard by the Higher Courts right upto the > Supreme Court. After > that he has the right to appeal to the President for waiver > of the 'death > penalty'. The Constitution of India provides that right. > You cannot compare > Civil Law of the Shah Bano case witha 'death penalty' being > awarded. > > No one can take that right away from Kasab. > > Kshmendra > > > --- On Thu, 5/6/10, Bipin Trivedi > wrote: > > From: Bipin Trivedi > Subject: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > To: "sarai-list" > Date: Thursday, May 6, 2010, 3:33 PM > AS EXPECTED, KASAV RIGHTLY GOT DEATH SENTENCE. > > Though terrorist's Kasav case was crystal clear, but still > we have gone for > about 17 months fair trial and proved that how transparent > our judicial > system is unlike Pakistan. But, after this trial and > judgment, he should not > allow to appeal in the higher court and should be hanged in > public > immediately without further judicial procedure. if Indira > Gandhi (ex PM) > deny to obey court verdict and neglect law and Shah Banu > case was revert out > of law by parliament than why cannot this? India should > show the world that > country cannot compromise in integrity and take hard action > if required like > open public death sentence. > > Thanks > Bipin > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Sun May 9 17:26:12 2010 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 12:56:12 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Price of documenting Individual identity in India-100 rupees In-Reply-To: <000f01caef6c$7f17c0d0$7d474270$@in> References: <000f01caef6c$7f17c0d0$7d474270$@in> Message-ID: Ofcourse Bipin! You may have a look at more than 400+ posts that I have written for the reader-list since 7th of November 2008 on various fuzzy aspects of identity. These posts are available at the Sarai reader-list archives. Hope that helps Taha From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sun May 9 17:36:49 2010 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 05:06:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT In-Reply-To: <576505.94573.qm@web112101.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <472978.49165.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> it is an automated response generated by SARAI REder List for whatever reason and whatever glitch in the system   i too have received it for every posting yesterday   today's picture will be known after this posting --- On Sun, 5/9/10, A.K. Malik wrote: From: A.K. Malik Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT To: "anupam chakravartty" Cc: "Sarai List" Date: Sunday, May 9, 2010, 5:10 PM Dear Mr Chakravartty,                                      I have not sent you any ticket. Please check up, it is perhaps coming from Mr Kaul's mail which I have also got for the last two mails addressed to him and I am also not able to make up what it is. "Hello, This is an automated response to inform you that your question has been entered into our system, and will be reviewed shortly. Your ticket has been submitted into the "General Support" department. We will respond to you as soon as possible. Please keep this information, and use it when refering to your ticket: Ticket subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT Ticket number: 24487705 Ticket link: https://secure.mpcustomer.com/ticket.php?ticket=24487705" I hope you understand. Regards, (A.K.MALIK) --- On Sun, 5/9/10, anupam chakravartty wrote: From: anupam chakravartty Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT To: "A.K. Malik" , "sarai list" Date: Sunday, May 9, 2010, 12:00 PM dear malik,   why have you sent me a ticket? for wht joy?   anupam On Sun, May 9, 2010 at 11:54 AM, A.K. Malik wrote: Dear Mr Kaul,              I am sorry to interrupt the thread between you and Mr Bipin, but after reading your post couldn't resist writing back. 1&2.There is no harm in having an opinion/point of view different than what is the law in force.So long as it is not changed,the punishment would be based on the Supreme Court verdict that death penalty should be given only in rarest of rare cases and this is what has been done by the Judge in the Kasab case.To give the convicted person a safeguard against a wrong conviction of death penalty,it is mandatory for the sentence to be ratified in the next higher court, in this case Bombay High Court. If HC doesn't consider it as rearest of the rare case then it is a  different matter. 3.Ask the relatives of the persons killed by the barbaric act of the terrorist who want the fellow to be hanged in public/shot dead without trial even but the law of the land has prevailed and must prevail. 4. Everyone on the road knows why Afzal Guru is not being hanged.Anything rest is all bullshit.You have written that"There is a rule followed that each one will await its turn for being accepted or being rejected. THIS IS  IMPORTANT.",just give a refernce to this rule so that we also become aware.Even a clerk in Govt Office knows to prioritise which file is to be sent early and which later but the Delhi Govt can't make up its mind to send comments on Afzal's petition in 5 years.Even if such a rule exists who stops the Govt from changing it by executive directions-because no such rule exists at all. I say almost all such "mercy petitions" have some or the other contacts in political and bureaucracy and are intentionally being dragged. So long live Afzal because the earlier petitions will never be decided in his life time.May be if Kasab also gets the same stature as Afzal, he will also live on. Yes, we belong to Gandhiji's land so we don't do anything to people who come and kill us and would rather say come kill us and we will give you immunity from being hanged and even punished and spend crores of rupees for your safety. Long live Indian Politics! With regards, (A.K.MALIK) --- On Sat, 5/8/10, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > From: Kshmendra Kaul > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > To: "Bipin Trivedi" > Cc: "sarai-list" > Date: Saturday, May 8, 2010, 7:37 PM > Dear Bipin >   > We are talking in circles now. I will try to make this my > last post on this thread and you are most welcome to have > the final say. >   > 1. To answer the easier question. Yes, in my opinion, the > countries including India, USA, China, Pakistan and > whosoever else, even if they total to 99% of the World > Population are BARBARIC in having the 'death penalty' as > punishment for any crime whatsoever. >   >     I hope you understand that I am not calling these > countries 'barbaric' in their sum-total, but 'barbaric' with > regards to death-penalty. >   > 2. Yes our (Indian) Constitution permits the 'death > penalty' and from my point of view that needs to be changed. > And, because I want to see that changed therefore my > argument is not irrelevant but it is a mirror for showing > the barbarism of death-penalty existing in the Constitution > and the blood-lust of those who are scream for anyone at > all to be done to death for any crime whatsoever. >   > 3. My (and presumably other 'people like me') opposing the > 'death penalty' is not meant for saving one person but for > saving every person who might be awarded the death sentence > whether that person has killed 1 or a hundred or thousands. >   > 4. I tried to explain to you in the last mail why the delay > in execution of Afzal Guru is not 'minority appeasement' but > I seem to have been unsuccessful. >   >    There are reportedly 29 'mercy petitions' like that > of Afzal Guru lying pending with the President of India. >   >    Afzal Guru was sentenced to death in 2004. >   >    Let me now give you some names of those who were > awarded the death sentence before Afzal Guru and you might > realise that there is no 'minority appeasement' in play. >   >   Look at these names: Murugan; G. Perarivalan; Chinna > Shanthan;  Davinder Singh > Bhullar ;  Simon; Gnanprakasham; Meesekar > Madaiah; Bilvendran; Gurdev Singh; Satnam Singh; Para > Singh; Sarabjit Singh; Praveen Kumar >   >    There is a rule followed that each one will await its > turn for being accepted or being rejected. THIS IS > IMPORTANT. You have said that "Legal experts clearly says > there is no such law to go with queue for death sentence > matter." Will you please tell me which "Legal Experts" But, > isnt it logical that it should be turn by turn.  >   >    Your main argument for fast-tracking the execution of > Afzal Guru is "One must separate terrorists conviction with > other conviction. Due to our this terror soft approach, we > are unable to fight terror to the extent what actually we > should do." >   >    You are conveying that putting Afzal Guru to death > speedily will deter other terrorists from attacking India. >   >    In this I disagree with you and let me tell you why. > Bipin there is no evidence at all from any part of the World > that executing the 'death sentence' for any kind of a crime > leads to decrease in the incidence of that particular crime. > If you have any such evidence please do share it. You can > take the examples of the very countries you mentioned USA, > China, Pakistan and you can add to that all other countries > where the 'death penalty' is awarded and executed. >   > As I said earlier, you can have the final say. >   > Kshmendra >   > > --- On Sat, 5/8/10, Bipin Trivedi > wrote: > > > From: Bipin Trivedi > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > To: "'Kshmendra Kaul'" > Cc: "sarai-list" > Date: Saturday, May 8, 2010, 10:54 AM > > > Dear Kshemendra, > > I have not at all missed the central point. Politician go > out of law for > their selfish motto, but not for terror conviction. What's > the reason? Can > you tell? Just because of political mileage, nothing else. > It's real problem > that people like you did not understand this. Because they > were punished as > terrorists activity and so the special case and not because > of their > religion. One must separate terrorists conviction with > other conviction. Due > to our this terror soft approach, we are unable to fight > terror to the > extent what actually we should do. > > I have never mentioned that Afsalguru should be given > priority for > punishment because he belongs to minority, but due to > terrorist act > conviction only. Whoever involved in this and even in the > future any > religion should be treated as same for terror conviction. > > Afsalguru case is clear minor appeasement for not executing > his conviction > and goes wrong message to terror groups and encourage them > further. Legal > experts clearly says there is no such law to go with queue > for death > sentence matter. Earlier such execution of death sentence > carried out, out > of turn in the couple of occasions. > > Constitution of India (SC) has already convicted death > sentence in 2006, > this cabinet for strange reason delaying it. So, this is > clear minor > appeasement case Dear Kshemendra. This is where congress > lack will to fight > terrorism.  > > You personally oppose death sentence is altogether > different issue. Our > constitution permits death sentence, so you argument at > present is > irrelevant of blood thirsty animal from Indian point of > view. It is > unfortunate that people like you oppose death sentence for > the people who is > blood thirsty for hundreds or thousands of people. You want > to save the life > of one person who engaged in blood bath and take lives of > 100/1000 of > people!!! > > India is barbaric in your view by adopting death sentence > than those nation > like US, China, Pakistan and many more are also barbaric > for adopting this > law. This is about 70% of world population is barbaric > according to you! > > Thanks > Bipin > > > > From: Kshmendra Kaul [mailto:kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com] > > Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 4:10 PM > To: Bipin Trivedi > Cc: sarai-list > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > Dear Bipin >   > You have missed the central point. The Constitution of > India gives that > right to Ajmal Kasab and also to Afzal Guru. >   > FYI Afzal Guru is not the only one who's appeal for waiver > of 'death > penalty' is pending with the President. And most of the > others are Hindus. > So stop obsessing about 'appeasement of minorities' in this > case. >   > The Constitution of India is not so petty that it will be > changed just > because you or someone else or even if millions of Indians > want to deny > Kasab the tiered rights to Courts and appeal to President. >   > Bipin, one should not accuse others of behaving > like blood-thirsty animals > and then become a blood-thirsty animal himself/herself. >   > Kshmendra >   >   > --- On Fri, 5/7/10, Bipin Trivedi > wrote: > > From: Bipin Trivedi > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > To: "'Kshmendra Kaul'" > Cc: "sarai-list" > Date: Friday, May 7, 2010, 3:37 PM > Dear Kshemendra, >   > Parliament can and has right to make such decision if show > will. But, > congress cannot show such will, who prolonged even > Afsalguru conviction > keeping pending for so long for their vote bank politics. > Comparison with > Shah Bano for the reason of vote bank politics only to > appealing minor. > Reverting shah Bano verdict is classic example of minor > appeasement and the > same case with Afsalguru and I am fear for Kasav also same > thing might > happen. >   > Thanks > Bipin >   >   >   >   > From: Kshmendra Kaul [mailto:kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com] > > Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 1:35 PM > To: sarai-list; Bipin Trivedi > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT >   > Dear Bipin >   > A. I am against the death penalty for anyone for any crime > whatsoever. I > believe the 'death penalty' is awarded in barbaric > societies, and yes, India > is still barbaric in many ways. >   > B. You might disagree on the above. That does not change > the opportunity > allowed in India for anyone convicted in a crime in a Lower > Court to take > the matter to a Higher Cour.  >   >      Since it is a question of a 'death penalty', Kasab > has the right to > have his case heard by the Higher Courts right upto the > Supreme Court. After > that he has the right to appeal to the President for waiver > of the 'death > penalty'. The Constitution of India provides that right. > You cannot compare > Civil Law of the Shah Bano case witha 'death penalty' being > awarded.  >   >      No one can take that right away from Kasab. >   > Kshmendra >    >   > --- On Thu, 5/6/10, Bipin Trivedi > wrote: >   > From: Bipin Trivedi > Subject: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > To: "sarai-list" > Date: Thursday, May 6, 2010, 3:33 PM > AS EXPECTED, KASAV RIGHTLY GOT DEATH SENTENCE. >   > Though terrorist's Kasav case was crystal clear, but still > we have gone for > about 17 months fair trial and proved that how transparent > our judicial > system is unlike Pakistan. But, after this trial and > judgment, he should not > allow to appeal in the higher court and should be hanged in > public > immediately without further judicial procedure. if Indira > Gandhi (ex PM) > deny to obey court verdict and neglect law and Shah Banu > case was revert out > of law by parliament than why cannot this? India should > show the world that > country cannot compromise in integrity and take hard action > if required like > open public death sentence. >   > Thanks > Bipin >   >   >   > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: >   > > > > > >       > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive:       _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From jjzeidner at gmail.com Sun May 9 20:17:09 2010 From: jjzeidner at gmail.com (Joshua Zeidner) Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 07:47:09 -0700 Subject: [Reader-list] Public Enemy vs Arizona: Sonic Immigration In-Reply-To: References: <24521732.1273327952042.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Hi Yasir! Still making excuses for Islamic terrorism? -jmz On Sun, May 9, 2010 at 4:00 AM, yasir ~يا سر wrote: > You've diagnosed this one properly. Josh goes back to the thingist list > around 2001-4. i see he's still spouting and needessly small-mindedly > arguing. its best to just ignore him and not engage. > > best > yasir > > > On Sat, May 8, 2010 at 7:12 PM, Paul D. Miller >wrote: > > > Hello to Josh and the Sarai list. I apologize about the delay in > > communication, but I had a concert in Khartoum, Sudan, and there were > > thousands of people at the show, and it was a demonstration of some of > the > > unique qualities of why reaching out past the norms of the kind of > paranoid > > scenarios Josh has been spouting on the list is exactly what I think the > > world needs more of. > > > > To those on the list that haven't heard the track I did with Public > Enemy, > > you can hear it here: > > > > http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html > > > > And yo Josh - screw your crappy music taste... > > > > Josh - why do you think that the Phoenix Suns has changed their name to > > "Los Suns": > > Team owner Robert Sarver says the Spanish jersey is meant to, quote, > "honor > > our Latino community and the diversity of our league, the state of > Arizona > > and our nation." > > > > The Arizona reactionary stance towards immigration is what I think is a > > betrayal of the country, and I believe that naive people like the right > wing > > types who espouse it have no idea about the economics of what they're > > talking about. The trouble is that as a larger political ideology, its > > hateful and divisive message is encouraging ever more misguided madness. > > > > Some examples: > > > > Read more: > > > http://newsbusters.org/blogs/scott-whitlock/2010/05/05/msnbcs-dylan-ratigan-gives-kudos-arizona-basketball-team-protesting-#ixzz0nLQzAkyL > > > > The problem is this: you can't argue with right wing lunatics like Josh - > > facts don't matter. We learned this during the Bush era, and we've seen > the > > Tea Party idiots doing the same thing. I belong in what I like to call, > > ironically, after Bush, "the reality based community." Interdependence in > a > > hyper globalized economy is a basic economic fact. You cannot shut it > down > > without massive consequences, and amusingly enough, I bet you'd be hard > > pressed to find even a right wing economist who would disagree with that > > basic assumption. Because I cannot argue with Josh (even politely), > without > > being called as he has called me a "racist (!!!???)" and a "betrayer of > my > > country" (sound like Fox News stupidity!?), I can only say - in this > forum > > focused on South Asia, that the kind of anti-immigrant stupidity that he > > espouses is so dumb as to be beyond the range of coherent dialog. > > > > I cannot believe that reactionary people like Josh have no sense of > > history, or even a willingness to get to facts, but hey, in the America > of > > Fox News and idiots like Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh, I'd encounter a > moron > > like Josh on the Sarai reader list (one could argue that he's a digital > > immigrant on this list, but the irony is too much...) ... nothing is > > shocking I guess. > > > > I have to admit - I am so disgusted by my fellow Arizona American's > > reactionary and ultimately idiotic legislation about immigration. It > boggles > > the mind - where do you think they came from? They are all immigrants. > > Anyway, not that these kinds of links matter to Josh, but hey... I'm just > an > > African American racist who betrays my country and despises Rush > Limbaugh, > > Glenn Beck, Fox News Zombies, and right wing idiots like Sarah Palin. > > > > The Left needs to push back on this kind of stuff. HARD. And, hopefully, > it > > will. > > > > > > Supporting links: > > > > > http://www.truthout.org/david-sirota-i-want-my-country-back-the-motto-mad-men59256 > > > > Why the Left has no Response to the Right Wing Lie Machine: > > http://www.crisispapers.org/essays10p/nolocontendere.htm > > > > Why Arizona isn't Crazy, Just wrong: > > > > > http://www.alternet.org/immigration/146736/why_arizona_isn't_crazy,_just_wrong > > > > Arizona Immigration Law Divides Law Enforcement: > > http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/22/us/22immig.html > > > > This is my last comment on this thread. > > Paul > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > >From: Joshua Zeidner > > >Sent: May 6, 2010 2:07 AM > > >To: reader-list at sarai.net > > >Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Public Enemy vs Arizona: Sonic Immigration > > > > > > Well, I just got back from the Phoenix rally. If any of you think > that > > >the SB1070 bill is about racial profiling, you are out of your mind. > The > > >bulk of the crowd was a semi-violent mob with Mexican and _USSR_ flags > (no > > >joke). They were proudly displaying their concept of history, which is > > that > > >of right to ownership of the American southwest. Many of them were > > clearly > > >mafia thugs. > > > > > > -jmz > > > > > > > > > > > >On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 9:48 AM, TaraPrakash > > wrote: > > > > > >> "I was at the capitol yesterday, there was a nice young African > American > > >> girl who was vocally against the pro-Mexico demonstrators. She came > > down > > >> here because she couldn't find a job in LA." > > >> > > >> Now, isn't there some kind of irony? Mexicans don't take so much risk > of > > >> crossing the border because of plenty of jobs on their side of the > > border. > > >> Jobwise the state that seems to be doing the best is Texas, now can > > someone > > >> remind the history of Texas? Is it somehow connected with Mexico? > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joshua Zeidner" < > > jjzeidner at gmail.com> > > >> To: > > >> Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2010 11:38 AM > > >> Subject: [Reader-list] Public Enemy vs Arizona: Sonic Immigration > > >> > > >> > > >> On the contrary, the African Americans are getting played by left > > wing > > >>> and the likes of Al Sharpton this time. > > >>> > > >>> I was at the capitol yesterday, there was a nice young African > > American > > >>> girl who was vocally against the pro-Mexico demonstrators. She came > > down > > >>> here because she couldn't find a job in LA. She shouted: "this is > the > > new > > >>> color of conservatism". > > >>> > > >>> We've never had slavery in Arizona. It was formed after the civil > > war. > > >>> The African Americans played a critical role in the establishment of > > our > > >>> state. > > >>> > > >>> -jmz > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 11:44 PM, Paul D. Miller < > anansi1 at earthlink.net > > >>> >wrote: > > >>> > > >>> I'm transferring at Frankfurt airport, and took a quick glance at > this > > >>>> video. I find it sad and appalling. > > >>>> > > >>>> It's galvinized me as an African American to build even more bridges > > >>>> between communities. > > >>>> > > >>>> Minorities only get played against one another when this kind of > thing > > >>>> happens, and the end result is everyone loses. > > >>>> > > >>>> This kind of stuff is so dumb, it's ridiculous. > > >>>> > > >>>> It really saddens me to see fellow African Americans being played by > > >>>> right > > >>>> wing types. > > >>>> > > >>>> Paul > > >>>> > > >>>> Sent from my iPhone > > >>>> > > >>>> On May 5, 2010, at 7:02 AM, Udai Malhotra > > >>>> wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>> Dear Joshua, > > >>>> > > >>>> What is the point you are trying to make by linking to this video? > If > > >>>> anything it is reinforcing that you are on some straight ignorant > > shit. > > >>>> > > >>>> - Udai > > >>>> > > >>>> On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 9:55 AM, Joshua Zeidner < < > jjzeidner at gmail.com > > > > > >>>> jjzeidner at gmail.com> wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcmjPgyN36g&NR=1 > > >>>>> > > >>>>> -jmz > > >>>>> > > >>>>> On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 1:28 PM, Paul D. Miller < < > > anansi1 at earthlink.net > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> anansi1 at earthlink.net>wrote: > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > Again - this is strange non sense. > > >>>>> > 1) the track is a free giveaway so no paycheck etc > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > Josh - this is stupid. Either up the level of the discourse or > come > > up > > >>>>> with > > >>>>> > something more interesting. > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone that would say > either > > me > > >>>>> or > > >>>>> > Chuck D are racist, and no, Flava Flav isn't on the track. So... > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > What's your point? I'm just getting on a flight to Khartoum, > Sudan > > for > > >>>>> > a > > >>>>> > project with ex child soldiers doing electronic music. > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > Josh - if you would like to dialog about the merits of Arizona's > > >>>>> > immigration, that's ok. But being an asshole, as we've seen in > > > >>>>> Arizona, > > >>>>> > doesn't solve anyone's problems. > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > By the way way, no, I'm not racist, and no, Public Enemy isn't > > racist. > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > And I have nothing to do with Al Sharpton. > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > Paul > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > Sent from my iPhone > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > On May 4, 2010, at 4:02 PM, Joshua Zeidner < < > jjzeidner at gmail.com> > > >>>>> jjzeidner at gmail.com> wrote: > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > sorry for getting all up in your grill hommie, but racism cuts > > both > > >>>>> ways. > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > maybe you can get Flavor Flav all up in hizouse too? > > >>>>> > < > > >>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzhpB1X-6ok> > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzhpB1X-6ok > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > it's pretty simple that illegal aliens are modern day slavery > and > > > > > >>>>> they > > >>>>> > destroy the lives of white and black Americans alike. > > Unfortunately > > >>>>> we've > > >>>>> > got selllouts like you who are willing to say anything for a > > paycheck. > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > check ya later holmes, jmz > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 12:48 PM, Paul D. Miller < > << > > >>>>> anansi1 at earthlink.net> > > >>>>> anansi1 at earthlink.net> > > >>>>> > anansi1 at earthlink.net> wrote: > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> >> Very strange and reactionary response. > > >>>>> >> > > >>>>> >> Joshua - can you please enlighten me on my 'racist politics' and > > my > > >>>>> >> relationship to Al Sharpton? > > >>>>> >> > > >>>>> >> You're sounding a bit shrill and to be completely honest, > totally > > >>>>> >> irrational. > > >>>>> >> > > >>>>> >> Paul > > >>>>> >> > > >>>>> >> > > >>>>> >> Sent from my iPhone > > >>>>> >> > > >>>>> >> On May 4, 2010, at 3:22 PM, Joshua Zeidner < < < > > jjzeidner at gmail.com> > > >>>>> jjzeidner at gmail.com> > > >>>>> >> jjzeidner at gmail.com> wrote: > > >>>>> >> > > >>>>> >> > > >>>>> >> I'm writing this from the Arizona Capitol. > > >>>>> >> > > >>>>> >> Paul, we don't want your racist politics here. Al Sharpton > has > > >>>>> nothing > > >>>>> >> in common with the illegal aliens. You are not only a traitor > to > > >> > > >>>>> your > > >>>>> >> country but a traitor to your own people. How can you turn > > against a > > >>>>> >> country that has given you so much? > > >>>>> >> > > >>>>> >> we do remember history. We remember it very well. > > >>>>> >> > > >>>>> >> Check it: >> << > > >>>>> http://www.buffalosoldiermuseum.com/?linkid=410&webid=1000> > > >>>>> http://www.buffalosoldiermuseum.com/?linkid=410&webid=1000><< > > >>>>> http://www.buffalosoldiermuseum.com/?linkid=410&webid=1000> > > >>>>> http://www.buffalosoldiermuseum.com/?linkid=410&webid=1000> > > >>>>> >> > > >>>>> http://www.buffalosoldiermuseum.com/?linkid=410&webid=1000 > > >>>>> >> > > >>>>> >> -jmz > > >>>>> >> > > >>>>> >> > > >>>>> >> On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 12:10 PM, Paul D. Miller < >> << > > >>>>> anansi1 at earthlink.net> > > >>>>> anansi1 at earthlink.net>< > anansi1 at earthlink.net > > > > > >>>>> > > >>>>> >> anansi1 at earthlink.net> wrote: > > >>>>> >> > > >>>>> >>> Hey people - I just finished a studio session with Chuck D from > > >>> > > >>>>> Public > > >>>>> >>> Enemy. In the wake of Republican Governor Jan Brewer's > appalling > > >>>>> >>> anti-immigrant law, me and Chuck D were rappin' and we decided > to > > >>>>> >>> put > > >>>>> >>> together an update of his classic track "By The Time I get To > > >>>>> Arizona." > > >>>>> >>> > > >>>>> >>> You can download the track from here: > > >>>>> >>> > > >>>>> >>> < > > >>>>> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html><< > > >>>>> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html> > > >>>>> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html> > > >>>>> >>> > > >>>>> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html > > >>>>> >>> > > >>>>> >>> > > >>>>> >>> Anyone who knows about hip hop from the early 90's remembers > John > > >>>>> >>> McCain's unwillingness to endorse creating a local version of > > Martin > > >>>>> Luther > > >>>>> >>> King's birthday. The update here is a 21st century look in the > > rear > > >>>>> view > > >>>>> >>> mirror. The cliché that "those who don't learn from the past > are > > >>>>> doomed to > > >>>>> >>> repeat it" still holds sway in our hyper amnesiac culture. I > > remixed > > >>>>> D.W. > > >>>>> >>> Griffith's infamous film Birth of a Nation with a bit of > Public > > >>> > > >>>>> Enemy > > >>>>> in > > >>>>> >>> mind, and later on, they named an e.p. with the same name as my > > >>>>> project. Me > > >>>>> >>> and Chuck D have done several projects in the past around >>> > > >>>>> progressive, > > >>>>> non > > >>>>> >>> knucklehead hip hop. > > >>>>> >>> > > >>>>> >>> Please feel free to download this track and pass it around. We > > are > > >>>>> >>> the > > >>>>> >>> media. Feel free to pass it around! > > >>>>> >>> > > >>>>> >>> By the way, this is a mashup, and it's basically not really for > > >>> > > >>>>> sale. > > >>>>> I > > >>>>> >>> just took a riff from Philly Sound >>> (<< > > >>>>> http://www.funkadelphiarecords.com> > > >>>>> http://www.funkadelphiarecords.com>< < > > >>>>> http://www.funkadelphiarecords.com> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> http://www.funkadelphiarecords.com> > > >>>>> >>> > www.funkadelphiarecords.com > > ), > > >>>>> >>> and > > >>>>> flipped it. The result, is what you > > >>>>> >>> hear here. It's free, and open. No $!! > > >>>>> >>> You can download a better resolution version of the track here: > > >>>>> >>> > > >>>>> >>> < > > >>>>> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html><< > > >>>>> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html> > > >>>>> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html> > > >>>>> >>> > > >>>>> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html > > >>>>> >>> > > >>>>> >>> Check it! > > >>>>> >>> > > >>>>> >>> Paul > > >>>>> >>> > > >>>>> >>> > > >>>>> >>> > > >>>>> >>> > > >>>>> >>> > > >>>>> >>> > > >>>>> >>> > > >>>>> >>> > > >>>>> >>> > > >>>>> >>> > > >>>>> >>> > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > -- > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> -- > > >>>>> _________________________________________ > > >>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >>>>> Critiques & Collaborations > > >>>>> To subscribe: send an email to > > >>>>> reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > header. > > >>>>> To unsubscribe: < > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > >>>>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >>>>> List archive: < > > >>>>> https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>> > > >>> -- > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> -- > > >>> _________________________________________ > > >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >>> Critiques & Collaborations > > >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > >>> subscribe in the subject header. > > >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > >>> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > >-- > > >_________________________________________ > > >reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >Critiques & Collaborations > > >To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > >To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- From rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com Sun May 9 20:49:06 2010 From: rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com (Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi) Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 20:49:06 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT In-Reply-To: <472978.49165.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <576505.94573.qm@web112101.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <472978.49165.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Well, I have been ticketted for too long now, and the funny issue is this is supposed to be medium which is supporter of freedom of expressions, even when they are against the views, as on moderator often wrote, "i will defend your right to express even when u disagree with me" but he seems to be the one with administrator who needs ticket now.! regards, rajen. On Sun, May 9, 2010 at 5:36 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > it is an automated response generated by SARAI REder List for whatever > reason and whatever glitch in the system > > i too have received it for every posting yesterday > > today's picture will be known after this posting > > --- On Sun, 5/9/10, A.K. Malik wrote: > > > From: A.K. Malik > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > To: "anupam chakravartty" > Cc: "Sarai List" > Date: Sunday, May 9, 2010, 5:10 PM > > > Dear Mr Chakravartty, > I have not sent you any ticket. Please > check up, it is perhaps coming from Mr Kaul's mail which I have also got for > the last two mails addressed to him and I am also not able to make up what > it is. > "Hello, > This is an automated response to inform you that your question has been > entered into our system, and will be reviewed shortly. Your ticket has been > submitted into the "General Support" department. > > We will respond to you as soon as possible. > > Please keep this information, and use it when refering to your ticket: > > Ticket subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > Ticket number: 24487705 > Ticket link: https://secure.mpcustomer.com/ticket.php?ticket=24487705" > I hope you understand. > Regards, > > (A.K.MALIK) > > > --- On Sun, 5/9/10, anupam chakravartty wrote: > > > From: anupam chakravartty > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > To: "A.K. Malik" , "sarai list" < > reader-list at sarai.net> > Date: Sunday, May 9, 2010, 12:00 PM > > > > dear malik, > > why have you sent me a ticket? for wht joy? > > anupam > > > On Sun, May 9, 2010 at 11:54 AM, A.K. Malik wrote: > > Dear Mr Kaul, > I am sorry to interrupt the thread between you and Mr Bipin, > but after reading your post couldn't resist writing back. > 1&2.There is no harm in having an opinion/point of view different than what > is the law in force.So long as it is not changed,the punishment would be > based on the Supreme Court verdict that death penalty should be given only > in rarest of rare cases and this is what has been done by the Judge in the > Kasab case.To give the convicted person a safeguard against a wrong > conviction of death penalty,it is mandatory for the sentence to be ratified > in the next higher court, in this case Bombay High Court. > If HC doesn't consider it as rearest of the rare case then it is a > different matter. > 3.Ask the relatives of the persons killed by the barbaric act of > the terrorist who want the fellow to be hanged in public/shot dead without > trial even but the law of the land has prevailed and must prevail. > 4. Everyone on the road knows why Afzal Guru is not being hanged.Anything > rest is all bullshit.You have written that"There is a rule followed that > each one will await its turn for being accepted or being rejected. THIS IS > IMPORTANT.",just give a refernce to this rule so that we also become > aware.Even a clerk in Govt Office knows to prioritise which file is to be > sent early and which later but the Delhi Govt can't make up its mind to send > comments on Afzal's petition in 5 years.Even if such a rule exists who stops > the Govt from changing it by executive directions-because no such rule > exists at all. I say almost all such "mercy petitions" have some or the > other contacts in political and bureaucracy and are intentionally being > dragged. So long live Afzal because the earlier petitions will never be > decided > in his life time.May be if Kasab also gets the same stature as Afzal, he > will also live on. > Yes, we belong to Gandhiji's land so we don't do anything to people who > come and kill us and would rather say come kill us and we will give you > immunity from being hanged and even punished and spend crores of rupees for > your safety. > Long live Indian Politics! > With regards, > > (A.K.MALIK) > > > --- On Sat, 5/8/10, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > > From: Kshmendra Kaul > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > To: "Bipin Trivedi" > > > Cc: "sarai-list" > > Date: Saturday, May 8, 2010, 7:37 PM > > > > > Dear Bipin > > > > We are talking in circles now. I will try to make this my > > last post on this thread and you are most welcome to have > > the final say. > > > > 1. To answer the easier question. Yes, in my opinion, the > > countries including India, USA, China, Pakistan and > > whosoever else, even if they total to 99% of the World > > Population are BARBARIC in having the 'death penalty' as > > punishment for any crime whatsoever. > > > > I hope you understand that I am not calling these > > countries 'barbaric' in their sum-total, but 'barbaric' with > > regards to death-penalty. > > > > 2. Yes our (Indian) Constitution permits the 'death > > penalty' and from my point of view that needs to be changed. > > And, because I want to see that changed therefore my > > argument is not irrelevant but it is a mirror > for showing > > the barbarism of death-penalty existing in the Constitution > > and the blood-lust of those who are scream for anyone at > > all to be done to death for any crime whatsoever. > > > > 3. My (and presumably other 'people like me') opposing the > > 'death penalty' is not meant for saving one person but for > > saving every person who might be awarded the death sentence > > whether that person has killed 1 or a hundred or thousands. > > > > 4. I tried to explain to you in the last mail why the delay > > in execution of Afzal Guru is not 'minority appeasement' but > > I seem to have been unsuccessful. > > > > There are reportedly 29 'mercy petitions' like that > > of Afzal Guru lying pending with the President of India. > > > > Afzal Guru was sentenced to death in 2004. > > > > > Let me now give you some names of those who were > > awarded the death sentence before Afzal Guru and you might > > realise that there is no 'minority appeasement' in play. > > > > Look at these names: Murugan; G. Perarivalan; Chinna > > Shanthan; Davinder Singh > > Bhullar ; Simon; Gnanprakasham; Meesekar > > Madaiah; Bilvendran; Gurdev Singh; Satnam Singh; Para > > Singh; Sarabjit Singh; Praveen Kumar > > > > There is a rule followed that each one will await its > > turn for being accepted or being rejected. THIS IS > > IMPORTANT. You have said that "Legal experts clearly says > > there is no such law to go with queue for death sentence > > matter." Will you please tell me which "Legal Experts" But, > > isnt it logical that it should be turn by turn. > > > > > Your main argument for fast-tracking the execution of > > Afzal Guru is "One must separate terrorists conviction with > > other conviction. Due to our this terror soft approach, we > > are unable to fight terror to the extent what actually we > > should do." > > > > You are conveying that putting Afzal Guru to death > > speedily will deter other terrorists from attacking India. > > > > In this I disagree with you and let me tell you why. > > Bipin there is no evidence at all from any part of the World > > that executing the 'death sentence' for any kind of a crime > > leads to decrease in the incidence of that particular crime. > > If you have any such evidence please do share it. You can > > take the examples of the very countries you mentioned USA, > > China, Pakistan and you can add to that all other countries > > where the 'death penalty' is > awarded and executed. > > > > As I said earlier, you can have the final say. > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > --- On Sat, 5/8/10, Bipin Trivedi > > wrote: > > > > > > From: Bipin Trivedi > > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > To: "'Kshmendra Kaul'" > > Cc: "sarai-list" > > Date: Saturday, May 8, 2010, 10:54 AM > > > > > > Dear Kshemendra, > > > > I have not at all missed the central point. Politician go > > out of law for > > their selfish motto, but not for terror conviction. What's > > the reason? Can > > you tell? Just because of political mileage, nothing else. > > It's real problem > > that people like you did not understand this. Because they > > were punished as > > terrorists activity and so the special case and not because > > of their > > religion. One must separate terrorists conviction with > > other conviction. Due > > to our this terror soft approach, we are unable to fight > > terror to the > > extent what actually we should do. > > > > I have never mentioned that Afsalguru should be given > > priority for > > punishment because > he belongs to minority, but due to > > terrorist act > > conviction only. Whoever involved in this and even in the > > future any > > religion should be treated as same for terror conviction. > > > > Afsalguru case is clear minor appeasement for not executing > > his conviction > > and goes wrong message to terror groups and encourage them > > further. Legal > > experts clearly says there is no such law to go with queue > > for death > > sentence matter. Earlier such execution of death sentence > > carried out, out > > of turn in the couple of occasions. > > > > Constitution of India (SC) has already convicted death > > sentence in 2006, > > this cabinet for strange reason delaying it. So, this is > > clear minor > > appeasement case Dear Kshemendra. This is where congress > > lack will to fight > > terrorism. > > > > You personally oppose death > sentence is altogether > > different issue. Our > > constitution permits death sentence, so you argument at > > present is > > irrelevant of blood thirsty animal from Indian point of > > view. It is > > unfortunate that people like you oppose death sentence for > > the people who is > > blood thirsty for hundreds or thousands of people. You want > > to save the life > > of one person who engaged in blood bath and take lives of > > 100/1000 of > > people!!! > > > > India is barbaric in your view by adopting death sentence > > than those nation > > like US, China, Pakistan and many more are also barbaric > > for adopting this > > law. This is about 70% of world population is barbaric > > according to you! > > > > Thanks > > Bipin > > > > > > > > From: Kshmendra Kaul [mailto:kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com] > > > > Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 4:10 PM > > To: Bipin Trivedi > > Cc: sarai-list > > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > > > Dear Bipin > > > > You have missed the central point. The Constitution of > > India gives that > > right to Ajmal Kasab and also to Afzal Guru. > > > > FYI Afzal Guru is not the only one who's appeal for waiver > > of 'death > > penalty' is pending with the President. And most of the > > others are Hindus. > > So stop obsessing about 'appeasement of minorities' in this > > case. > > > > The Constitution of India is not so petty that it will be > > changed just > > because you or someone else or even if millions of Indians > > want to deny > > Kasab the tiered rights to Courts and appeal to President. > > > > > Bipin, one should not accuse others of behaving > > like blood-thirsty animals > > and then become a blood-thirsty animal himself/herself. > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > --- On Fri, 5/7/10, Bipin Trivedi > > wrote: > > > > From: Bipin Trivedi > > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > To: "'Kshmendra Kaul'" > > Cc: "sarai-list" > > Date: Friday, May 7, 2010, 3:37 PM > > Dear Kshemendra, > > > > Parliament can and has right to make such decision if show > > will. But, > > congress cannot show such will, who prolonged even > > Afsalguru conviction > > keeping pending for so long for their vote bank politics. > > Comparison with > > Shah Bano for the reason of vote bank politics only to > > appealing minor. > > Reverting shah Bano verdict is classic example of minor > > appeasement and the > > same case with Afsalguru and I am fear for Kasav also same > > thing might > > happen. > > > > Thanks > > Bipin > > > > > > > > > > From: Kshmendra Kaul [mailto:kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com] > > > > Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 1:35 PM > > To: sarai-list; Bipin Trivedi > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > > > Dear Bipin > > > > A. I am against the death penalty for anyone for any crime > > whatsoever. I > > believe the 'death penalty' is awarded in barbaric > > societies, and yes, India > > is still barbaric in many ways. > > > > B. You might disagree on the above. That does not change > > the opportunity > > allowed in India for anyone convicted in a crime in a Lower > > Court to take > > the matter to a Higher Cour. > > > > Since it is a question of a 'death penalty', Kasab > > has the right to > > have his > case heard by the Higher Courts right upto the > > Supreme Court. After > > that he has the right to appeal to the President for waiver > > of the 'death > > penalty'. The Constitution of India provides that right. > > You cannot compare > > Civil Law of the Shah Bano case witha 'death penalty' being > > awarded. > > > > No one can take that right away from Kasab. > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > --- On Thu, 5/6/10, Bipin Trivedi > > wrote: > > > > From: Bipin Trivedi > > Subject: > [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > To: "sarai-list" > > Date: Thursday, May 6, 2010, 3:33 PM > > AS EXPECTED, KASAV RIGHTLY GOT DEATH SENTENCE. > > > > Though terrorist's Kasav case was crystal clear, but still > > we have gone for > > about 17 months fair trial and proved that how transparent > > our judicial > > system is unlike Pakistan. But, after this trial and > > judgment, he should not > > allow to appeal in the higher court and should be hanged in > > public > > immediately without further judicial procedure. if Indira > > Gandhi (ex PM) > > deny to obey court verdict and neglect law and Shah Banu > > case was revert out > > of law by parliament than why cannot this? India should > > show the > world that > > country cannot compromise in integrity and take hard action > > if required like > > open public death sentence. > > > > Thanks > > Bipin > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > > city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with subscribe > > in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > > city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > -- Rajen. From rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com Sun May 9 20:54:08 2010 From: rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com (Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi) Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 20:54:08 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Price of documenting Individual identity in India-100 rupees In-Reply-To: References: <000f01caef6c$7f17c0d0$7d474270$@in> Message-ID: Bipin, Taha has done a wonderful compilation of all the aspects of id project, from parliamentary discussions, news reports,media articles, aspects of misuse and privacy invasion, and his own thoughts were all very relevant, very thought provoking. regards,rajen. On Sun, May 9, 2010 at 5:26 PM, Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com>wrote: > Ofcourse Bipin! > > You may have a look at more than 400+ posts that I have written for > the reader-list since 7th of November 2008 on various fuzzy aspects of > identity. These posts are available at the Sarai reader-list archives. > > Hope that helps > > Taha > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- Rajen. From anansi1 at earthlink.net Sun May 9 21:10:24 2010 From: anansi1 at earthlink.net (Paul D. Miller) Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 17:40:24 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] Public Enemy vs Arizona: Sonic Immigration In-Reply-To: References: <24521732.1273327952042.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <056B0CBF-EDEF-4BF1-B30F-0B09A5B3B55A@earthlink.net> Let's see who is making excuses for Islamic terrorism: Bush - whose cozy relationship with te Bin Laden family and Saudi Monarchy set the stage for several of the major developments leading to 9/11 Or Halliburton/Dick Cheney who do major oil contract work for Saudi companies and even violate US sanctions on Iran? The right wing always has selective amnesia... Paul Sent from my iPhone On May 9, 2010, at 4:47 PM, Joshua Zeidner wrote: > Hi Yasir! > > Still making excuses for Islamic terrorism? > > -jmz > > > On Sun, May 9, 2010 at 4:00 AM, yasir ~يا سر > wrote: > >> You've diagnosed this one properly. Josh goes back to the thingist >> list >> around 2001-4. i see he's still spouting and needessly small-mindedly >> arguing. its best to just ignore him and not engage. >> >> best >> yasir >> >> >> On Sat, May 8, 2010 at 7:12 PM, Paul D. Miller >> wrote: >> >>> Hello to Josh and the Sarai list. I apologize about the delay in >>> communication, but I had a concert in Khartoum, Sudan, and there >>> were >>> thousands of people at the show, and it was a demonstration of >>> some of >> the >>> unique qualities of why reaching out past the norms of the kind of >> paranoid >>> scenarios Josh has been spouting on the list is exactly what I >>> think the >>> world needs more of. >>> >>> To those on the list that haven't heard the track I did with Public >> Enemy, >>> you can hear it here: >>> >>> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html >>> >>> And yo Josh - screw your crappy music taste... >>> >>> Josh - why do you think that the Phoenix Suns has changed their >>> name to >>> "Los Suns": >>> Team owner Robert Sarver says the Spanish jersey is meant to, quote, >> "honor >>> our Latino community and the diversity of our league, the state of >> Arizona >>> and our nation." >>> >>> The Arizona reactionary stance towards immigration is what I think >>> is a >>> betrayal of the country, and I believe that naive people like the >>> right >> wing >>> types who espouse it have no idea about the economics of what >>> they're >>> talking about. The trouble is that as a larger political ideology, >>> its >>> hateful and divisive message is encouraging ever more misguided >>> madness. >>> >>> Some examples: >>> >>> Read more: >>> >> http://newsbusters.org/blogs/scott-whitlock/2010/05/05/msnbcs-dylan-ratigan-gives-kudos-arizona-basketball-team-protesting-#ixzz0nLQzAkyL >>> >>> The problem is this: you can't argue with right wing lunatics like >>> Josh - >>> facts don't matter. We learned this during the Bush era, and we've >>> seen >> the >>> Tea Party idiots doing the same thing. I belong in what I like to >>> call, >>> ironically, after Bush, "the reality based community." >>> Interdependence in >> a >>> hyper glob From jjzeidner at gmail.com Sun May 9 21:19:09 2010 From: jjzeidner at gmail.com (Joshua Zeidner) Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 08:49:09 -0700 Subject: [Reader-list] Public Enemy vs Arizona: Sonic Immigration In-Reply-To: <056B0CBF-EDEF-4BF1-B30F-0B09A5B3B55A@earthlink.net> References: <24521732.1273327952042.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <056B0CBF-EDEF-4BF1-B30F-0B09A5B3B55A@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Paul, then why do Muslims vote overwhelmingly Democrat? -jmz On Sun, May 9, 2010 at 8:40 AM, Paul D. Miller wrote: > Let's see who is making excuses for Islamic terrorism: > > Bush - whose cozy relationship with te Bin Laden family and Saudi Monarchy > set the stage for several of the major developments leading to 9/11 > > Or Halliburton/Dick Cheney who do major oil contract work for Saudi > companies and even violate US sanctions on Iran? > > The right wing always has selective amnesia... > > > Paul > > Sent from my iPhone > > On May 9, 2010, at 4:47 PM, Joshua Zeidner wrote: > > Hi Yasir! >> >> Still making excuses for Islamic terrorism? >> >> -jmz >> >> >> On Sun, May 9, 2010 at 4:00 AM, yasir ~يا سر >> wrote: >> >> You've diagnosed this one properly. Josh goes back to the thingist list >>> around 2001-4. i see he's still spouting and needessly small-mindedly >>> arguing. its best to just ignore him and not engage. >>> >>> best >>> yasir >>> >>> >>> On Sat, May 8, 2010 at 7:12 PM, Paul D. Miller >> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>> >>> Hello to Josh and the Sarai list. I apologize about the delay in >>>> communication, but I had a concert in Khartoum, Sudan, and there were >>>> thousands of people at the show, and it was a demonstration of some of >>>> >>> the >>> >>>> unique qualities of why reaching out past the norms of the kind of >>>> >>> paranoid >>> >>>> scenarios Josh has been spouting on the list is exactly what I think the >>>> world needs more of. >>>> >>>> To those on the list that haven't heard the track I did with Public >>>> >>> Enemy, >>> >>>> you can hear it here: >>>> >>>> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html >>>> >>>> And yo Josh - screw your crappy music taste... >>>> >>>> Josh - why do you think that the Phoenix Suns has changed their name to >>>> "Los Suns": >>>> Team owner Robert Sarver says the Spanish jersey is meant to, quote, >>>> >>> "honor >>> >>>> our Latino community and the diversity of our league, the state of >>>> >>> Arizona >>> >>>> and our nation." >>>> >>>> The Arizona reactionary stance towards immigration is what I think is a >>>> betrayal of the country, and I believe that naive people like the right >>>> >>> wing >>> >>>> types who espouse it have no idea about the economics of what they're >>>> talking about. The trouble is that as a larger political ideology, its >>>> hateful and divisive message is encouraging ever more misguided madness. >>>> >>>> Some examples: >>>> >>>> Read more: >>>> >>>> >>> http://newsbusters.org/blogs/scott-whitlock/2010/05/05/msnbcs-dylan-ratigan-gives-kudos-arizona-basketball-team-protesting-#ixzz0nLQzAkyL >>> >>>> >>>> The problem is this: you can't argue with right wing lunatics like Josh >>>> - >>>> facts don't matter. We learned this during the Bush era, and we've seen >>>> >>> the >>> >>>> Tea Party idiots doing the same thing. I belong in what I like to call, >>>> ironically, after Bush, "the reality based community." Interdependence >>>> in >>>> >>> a >>> >>>> hyper glob >>>> >>> -- From anansi1 at earthlink.net Sun May 9 21:24:15 2010 From: anansi1 at earthlink.net (Paul D. Miller) Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 17:54:15 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] Public Enemy vs Arizona: Sonic Immigration In-Reply-To: References: <24521732.1273327952042.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <056B0CBF-EDEF-4BF1-B30F-0B09A5B3B55A@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <04A3F8C2-F640-4991-9EAA-0C71A9966E29@earthlink.net> Which class of Muslim? The Saudi's? Ask Bush-Bandar... This is a retarded question - there are many kinds of Muslim. An many Iranian Americans (yes, Sunni...), vote Republican, like conservative Cubans. Look what good voting for Rebulicans has done either of their countries.... Paul Sent from my iPhone On May 9, 2010, at 5:49 PM, Joshua Zeidner wrote: > > > > Paul, > > then why do Muslims vote overwhelmingly Democrat? > > -jmz > > > On Sun, May 9, 2010 at 8:40 AM, Paul D. Miller > wrote: > Let's see who is making excuses for Islamic terrorism: > > Bush - whose cozy relationship with te Bin Laden family and Saudi > Monarchy set the stage for several of the major developments leading > to 9/11 > > Or Halliburton/Dick Cheney who do major oil contract work for Saudi > companies and even violate US sanctions on Iran? > > The right wing always has selective amnesia... > > > Paul > > Sent from my iPhone > > On May 9, 2010, at 4:47 PM, Joshua Zeidner > wrote: > > Hi Yasir! > > Still making excuses for Islamic terrorism? > > -jmz > > > On Sun, May 9, 2010 at 4:00 AM, yasir ~يا سر > wrote: > > You've diagnosed this one properly. Josh goes back to the thingist > list > around 2001-4. i see he's still spouting and needessly small-mindedly > arguing. its best to just ignore him and not engage. > > best > yasir > > > On Sat, May 8, 2010 at 7:12 PM, Paul D. Miller wrote: > > Hello to Josh and the Sarai list. I apologize about the delay in > communication, but I had a concert in Khartoum, Sudan, and there were > thousands of people at the show, and it was a demonstration of some of > the > unique qualities of why reaching out past the norms of the kind of > paranoid > scenarios Josh has been spouting on the list is exactly what I think > the > world needs more of. > > To those on the list that haven't heard the track I did with Public > Enemy, > you can hear it here: > > http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html > > And yo Josh - screw your crappy music taste... > > Josh - why do you think that the Phoenix Suns has changed their name > to > "Los Suns": > Team owner Robert Sarver says the Spanish jersey is meant to, quote, > "honor > our Latino community and the diversity of our league, the state of > Arizona > and our nation." > > The Arizona reactionary stance towards immigration is what I think > is a > betrayal of the country, and I believe that naive people like the > right > wing > types who espouse it have no idea about the economics of what they're > talking about. The trouble is that as a larger political ideology, its > hateful and divisive message is encouraging ever more misguided > madness. > > Some examples: > > Read more: > > http://newsbusters.org/blogs/scott-whitlock/2010/05/05/msnbcs-dylan-ratigan-gives-kudos-arizona-basketball-team-protesting-#ixzz0nLQzAkyL > > The problem is this: you can't argue with right wing lunatics like > Josh - > facts don't matter. We learned this during the Bush era, and we've > seen > the > Tea Party idiots doing the same thing. I belong in what I like to > call, > ironically, after Bush, "the reality based community." > Interdependence in > a > hyper glob > > > > -- > From jjzeidner at gmail.com Sun May 9 21:27:04 2010 From: jjzeidner at gmail.com (Joshua Zeidner) Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 08:57:04 -0700 Subject: [Reader-list] Public Enemy vs Arizona: Sonic Immigration In-Reply-To: <04A3F8C2-F640-4991-9EAA-0C71A9966E29@earthlink.net> References: <24521732.1273327952042.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <056B0CBF-EDEF-4BF1-B30F-0B09A5B3B55A@earthlink.net> <04A3F8C2-F640-4991-9EAA-0C71A9966E29@earthlink.net> Message-ID: What is your point, Paul? that all evil stems from the Republican Party and 'right wingers'? -jmz On Sun, May 9, 2010 at 8:54 AM, Paul D. Miller wrote: > Which class of Muslim? The Saudi's? Ask Bush-Bandar... > > This is a retarded question - there are many kinds of Muslim. An many > Iranian Americans (yes, Sunni...), vote Republican, like conservative > Cubans. Look what good voting for Rebulicans has done either of their > countries.... > > Paul > > Sent from my iPhone > > On May 9, 2010, at 5:49 PM, Joshua Zeidner wrote: > > > > > Paul, > > then why do Muslims vote overwhelmingly Democrat? > > -jmz > > > On Sun, May 9, 2010 at 8:40 AM, Paul D. Miller < > anansi1 at earthlink.net> wrote: > >> Let's see who is making excuses for Islamic terrorism: >> >> Bush - whose cozy relationship with te Bin Laden family and Saudi Monarchy >> set the stage for several of the major developments leading to 9/11 >> >> Or Halliburton/Dick Cheney who do major oil contract work for Saudi >> companies and even violate US sanctions on Iran? >> >> The right wing always has selective amnesia... >> >> >> Paul >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On May 9, 2010, at 4:47 PM, Joshua Zeidner < >> jjzeidner at gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Hi Yasir! >>> >>> Still making excuses for Islamic terrorism? >>> >>> -jmz >>> >>> >>> On Sun, May 9, 2010 at 4:00 AM, yasir ~يا سر < >>> yasir.media at gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> You've diagnosed this one properly. Josh goes back to the thingist list >>>> around 2001-4. i see he's still spouting and needessly small-mindedly >>>> arguing. its best to just ignore him and not engage. >>>> >>>> best >>>> yasir >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, May 8, 2010 at 7:12 PM, Paul D. Miller < >>>> anansi1 at earthlink.net >>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>> >>>> Hello to Josh and the Sarai list. I apologize about the delay in >>>>> communication, but I had a concert in Khartoum, Sudan, and there were >>>>> thousands of people at the show, and it was a demonstration of some of >>>>> >>>> the >>>> >>>>> unique qualities of why reaching out past the norms of the kind of >>>>> >>>> paranoid >>>> >>>>> scenarios Josh has been spouting on the list is exactly what I think >>>>> the >>>>> world needs more of. >>>>> >>>>> To those on the list that haven't heard the track I did with Public >>>>> >>>> Enemy, >>>> >>>>> you can hear it here: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html >>>>> >>>>> And yo Josh - screw your crappy music taste... >>>>> >>>>> Josh - why do you think that the Phoenix Suns has changed their name to >>>>> "Los Suns": >>>>> Team owner Robert Sarver says the Spanish jersey is meant to, quote, >>>>> >>>> "honor >>>> >>>>> our Latino community and the diversity of our league, the state of >>>>> >>>> Arizona >>>> >>>>> and our nation." >>>>> >>>>> The Arizona reactionary stance towards immigration is what I think is a >>>>> betrayal of the country, and I believe that naive people like the right >>>>> >>>> wing >>>> >>>>> types who espouse it have no idea about the economics of what they're >>>>> talking about. The trouble is that as a larger political ideology, its >>>>> hateful and divisive message is encouraging ever more misguided >>>>> madness. >>>>> >>>>> Some examples: >>>>> >>>>> Read more: >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> http://newsbusters.org/blogs/scott-whitlock/2010/05/05/msnbcs-dylan-ratigan-gives-kudos-arizona-basketball-team-protesting-#ixzz0nLQzAkyL >>>> >>>>> >>>>> The problem is this: you can't argue with right wing lunatics like Josh >>>>> - >>>>> facts don't matter. We learned this during the Bush era, and we've seen >>>>> >>>> the >>>> >>>>> Tea Party idiots doing the same thing. I belong in what I like to call, >>>>> ironically, after Bush, "the reality based community." Interdependence >>>>> in >>>>> >>>> a >>>> >>>>> hyper glob >>>>> >>>> > > > -- > > -- From anansi1 at earthlink.net Sun May 9 21:43:19 2010 From: anansi1 at earthlink.net (Paul D. Miller) Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 18:13:19 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] Public Enemy vs Arizona: Sonic Immigration In-Reply-To: References: <24521732.1273327952042.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <056B0CBF-EDEF-4BF1-B30F-0B09A5B3B55A@earthlink.net> <04A3F8C2-F640-4991-9EAA-0C71A9966E29@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <88375B1D-F627-4BD2-AC02-9036A3B0581C@earthlink.net> Actually, I don't think all Republicans are moronic hippocrites. Lincoln was pretty intriguing, and as bad as Nixon was, he expanded public parks and created alot of nature reserves... But yeah. Republicans always take some kind of 'high horse' type situation that only works if you don't pay attention to details - which regretfully, too many Americans don't. I'll give Republicans credit though - for being relentlessly evil. It's intriguing. They never, ever stop. But, no, not all evil comes from Republicans. Usually the culprit is basically just plain unwillingness to think about facts and complexity. Republicans usually want really simple answers for very complex situations. It's a tragedy for the 21st century that they are taken even vaguely serious. Remember those good old 'weapons of mass destruction in Iraq?' or the db gay marriage scare of the last election? Or Sarah Palins hilarious take on geo-politics that was worthy of Saturday Nite Live? Sent from my iPhone On May 9, 2010, at 5:57 PM, Joshua Zeidner wrote: > > > What is your point, Paul? > > that all evil stems from the Republican Party and 'right wingers'? > > -jmz > > > > On Sun, May 9, 2010 at 8:54 AM, Paul D. Miller > wrote: > Which class of Muslim? The Saudi's? Ask Bush-Bandar... > > This is a retarded question - there are many kinds of Muslim. An > many Iranian Americans (yes, Sunni...), vote Republican, like > conservative Cubans. Look what good voting for Rebulicans has done > either of their countries.... > > Paul > > Sent from my iPhone > > On May 9, 2010, at 5:49 PM, Joshua Zeidner > wrote: > >> >> >> >> Paul, >> >> then why do Muslims vote overwhelmingly Democrat? >> >> -jmz >> >> >> On Sun, May 9, 2010 at 8:40 AM, Paul D. Miller >> wrote: >> Let's see who is making excuses for Islamic terrorism: >> >> Bush - whose cozy relationship with te Bin Laden family and Saudi >> Monarchy set the stage for several of the major developments >> leading to 9/11 >> >> Or Halliburton/Dick Cheney who do major oil contract work for Saudi >> companies and even violate US sanctions on Iran? >> >> The right wing always has selective amnesia... >> >> >> Paul >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On May 9, 2010, at 4:47 PM, Joshua Zeidner >> wrote: >> >> Hi Yasir! >> >> Still making excuses for Islamic terrorism? >> >> -jmz >> >> >> On Sun, May 9, 2010 at 4:00 AM, yasir ~يا سر >> wrote: >> >> You've diagnosed this one properly. Josh goes back to the thingist >> list >> around 2001-4. i see he's still spouting and needessly small-mindedly >> arguing. its best to just ignore him and not engage. >> >> best >> yasir >> >> >> On Sat, May 8, 2010 at 7:12 PM, Paul D. Miller > wrote: >> >> Hello to Josh and the Sarai list. I apologize about the delay in >> communication, but I had a concert in Khartoum, Sudan, and there were >> thousands of people at the show, and it was a demonstration of some >> of >> the >> unique qualities of why reaching out past the norms of the kind of >> paranoid >> scenarios Josh has been spouting on the list is exactly what I >> think the >> world needs more of. >> >> To those on the list that haven't heard the track I did with Public >> Enemy, >> you can hear it here: >> >> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html >> >> And yo Josh - screw your crappy music taste... >> >> Josh - why do you think that the Phoenix Suns has changed their >> name to >> "Los Suns": >> Team owner Robert Sarver says the Spanish jersey is meant to, quote, >> "honor >> our Latino community and the diversity of our league, the state of >> Arizona >> and our nation." >> >> The Arizona reactionary stance towards immigration is what I think >> is a >> betrayal of the country, and I believe that naive people like the >> right >> wing >> types who espouse it have no idea about the economics of what they're >> talking about. The trouble is that as a larger political ideology, >> its >> hateful and divisive message is encouraging ever more misguided >> madness. >> >> Some examples: >> >> Read more: >> >> http://newsbusters.org/blogs/scott-whitlock/2010/05/05/msnbcs-dylan-ratigan-gives-kudos-arizona-basketball-team-protesting-#ixzz0nLQzAkyL >> >> The problem is this: you can't argue with right wing lunatics like >> Josh - >> facts don't matter. We learned this during the Bush era, and we've >> seen >> the >> Tea Party idiots doing the same thing. I belong in what I like to >> call, >> ironically, after Bush, "the reality based community." >> Interdependence in >> a >> hyper glob >> >> >> >> -- >> > > > > -- > From aliens at dataone.in Sun May 9 21:47:26 2010 From: aliens at dataone.in (Bipin Trivedi) Date: Sun, 09 May 2010 21:47:26 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Price of documenting Individual identity in India-100 rupees In-Reply-To: References: <000f01caef6c$7f17c0d0$7d474270$@in> Message-ID: <000c01caef93$1d829ad0$5887d070$@in> Ok Dear Taha, but can you highlight your key reasons or disadvantages of your oppose? If you can brief it would be better. -----Original Message----- From: Taha Mehmood [mailto:2tahamehmood at googlemail.com] Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 5:26 PM To: Bipin Trivedi Cc: Sarai Reader-list Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Price of documenting Individual identity in India-100 rupees Ofcourse Bipin! You may have a look at more than 400+ posts that I have written for the reader-list since 7th of November 2008 on various fuzzy aspects of identity. These posts are available at the Sarai reader-list archives. Hope that helps Taha From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Sun May 9 22:06:38 2010 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 17:36:38 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Price of documenting Individual identity in India-100 rupees In-Reply-To: <000c01caef93$1d829ad0$5887d070$@in> References: <000f01caef6c$7f17c0d0$7d474270$@in> <000c01caef93$1d829ad0$5887d070$@in> Message-ID: Dear Bipin We seem to trudging on familiar grounds. First of all, let me state that I am a researcher and not an activist. My role is not to oppose or support an issue. It does not matter to me if UID fails or succeeds. Personally I am deeply interested in thinking about the idea of -identity-. UID happens to be about -identity- therefore my interest. The notion of -identity- happens to be one of the many research interests which I follow regularly. As a researcher my role is to re-search. So basically it a hugely self absorbing exercise to survey views on a particular topic. I have tried to do this publicly on my research blog. I invite you to please have a look at it. You may access it at http://tahaz.wordpress.com/ I would like to know what is it about UID that interests you? Warm regards Taha From aliens at dataone.in Sun May 9 22:06:56 2010 From: aliens at dataone.in (Bipin Trivedi) Date: Sun, 09 May 2010 22:06:56 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT In-Reply-To: <282594.39445.qm@web112105.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <962018.57389.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <282594.39445.qm@web112105.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001001caef95$d73f5ce0$85be16a0$@in> Dear Malik, Thanks for your consent and views -----Original Message----- From: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net [mailto:reader-list-bounces at sarai.net] On Behalf Of A.K. Malik Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 11:55 AM To: Kshmendra Kaul Cc: Sarai List Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT Dear Mr Kaul, I am sorry to interrupt the thread between you and Mr Bipin, but after reading your post couldn't resist writing back. 1&2.There is no harm in having an opinion/point of view different than what is the law in force.So long as it is not changed,the punishment would be based on the Supreme Court verdict that death penalty should be given only in rarest of rare cases and this is what has been done by the Judge in the Kasab case.To give the convicted person a safeguard against a wrong conviction of death penalty,it is mandatory for the sentence to be ratified in the next higher court, in this case Bombay High Court. If HC doesn't consider it as rearest of the rare case then it is a different matter. 3.Ask the relatives of the persons killed by the barbaric act of the terrorist who want the fellow to be hanged in public/shot dead without trial even but the law of the land has prevailed and must prevail. 4. Everyone on the road knows why Afzal Guru is not being hanged.Anything rest is all bullshit.You have written that"There is a rule followed that each one will await its turn for being accepted or being rejected. THIS IS IMPORTANT.",just give a refernce to this rule so that we also become aware.Even a clerk in Govt Office knows to prioritise which file is to be sent early and which later but the Delhi Govt can't make up its mind to send comments on Afzal's petition in 5 years.Even if such a rule exists who stops the Govt from changing it by executive directions-because no such rule exists at all. I say almost all such "mercy petitions" have some or the other contacts in political and bureaucracy and are intentionally being dragged. So long live Afzal because the earlier petitions will never be decided in his life time.May be if Kasab also gets the same stature as Afzal, he will also live on. Yes, we belong to Gandhiji's land so we don't do anything to people who come and kill us and would rather say come kill us and we will give you immunity from being hanged and even punished and spend crores of rupees for your safety. Long live Indian Politics! With regards, (A.K.MALIK) --- On Sat, 5/8/10, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > From: Kshmendra Kaul > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > To: "Bipin Trivedi" > Cc: "sarai-list" > Date: Saturday, May 8, 2010, 7:37 PM > Dear Bipin > > We are talking in circles now. I will try to make this my > last post on this thread and you are most welcome to have > the final say. > > 1. To answer the easier question. Yes, in my opinion, the > countries including India, USA, China, Pakistan and > whosoever else, even if they total to 99% of the World > Population are BARBARIC in having the 'death penalty' as > punishment for any crime whatsoever. > > I hope you understand that I am not calling these > countries 'barbaric' in their sum-total, but 'barbaric' with > regards to death-penalty. > > 2. Yes our (Indian) Constitution permits the 'death > penalty' and from my point of view that needs to be changed. > And, because I want to see that changed therefore my > argument is not irrelevant but it is a mirror for showing > the barbarism of death-penalty existing in the Constitution > and the blood-lust of those who are scream for anyone at > all to be done to death for any crime whatsoever. > > 3. My (and presumably other 'people like me') opposing the > 'death penalty' is not meant for saving one person but for > saving every person who might be awarded the death sentence > whether that person has killed 1 or a hundred or thousands. > > 4. I tried to explain to you in the last mail why the delay > in execution of Afzal Guru is not 'minority appeasement' but > I seem to have been unsuccessful. > > There are reportedly 29 'mercy petitions' like that > of Afzal Guru lying pending with the President of India. > > Afzal Guru was sentenced to death in 2004. > > Let me now give you some names of those who were > awarded the death sentence before Afzal Guru and you might > realise that there is no 'minority appeasement' in play. > > Look at these names: Murugan; G. Perarivalan; Chinna > Shanthan; Davinder Singh > Bhullar ; Simon; Gnanprakasham; Meesekar > Madaiah; Bilvendran; Gurdev Singh; Satnam Singh; Para > Singh; Sarabjit Singh; Praveen Kumar > > There is a rule followed that each one will await its > turn for being accepted or being rejected. THIS IS > IMPORTANT. You have said that "Legal experts clearly says > there is no such law to go with queue for death sentence > matter." Will you please tell me which "Legal Experts" But, > isnt it logical that it should be turn by turn. > > Your main argument for fast-tracking the execution of > Afzal Guru is "One must separate terrorists conviction with > other conviction. Due to our this terror soft approach, we > are unable to fight terror to the extent what actually we > should do." > > You are conveying that putting Afzal Guru to death > speedily will deter other terrorists from attacking India. > > In this I disagree with you and let me tell you why. > Bipin there is no evidence at all from any part of the World > that executing the 'death sentence' for any kind of a crime > leads to decrease in the incidence of that particular crime. > If you have any such evidence please do share it. You can > take the examples of the very countries you mentioned USA, > China, Pakistan and you can add to that all other countries > where the 'death penalty' is awarded and executed. > > As I said earlier, you can have the final say. > > Kshmendra > > > --- On Sat, 5/8/10, Bipin Trivedi > wrote: > > > From: Bipin Trivedi > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > To: "'Kshmendra Kaul'" > Cc: "sarai-list" > Date: Saturday, May 8, 2010, 10:54 AM > > > Dear Kshemendra, > > I have not at all missed the central point. Politician go > out of law for > their selfish motto, but not for terror conviction. What's > the reason? Can > you tell? Just because of political mileage, nothing else. > It's real problem > that people like you did not understand this. Because they > were punished as > terrorists activity and so the special case and not because > of their > religion. One must separate terrorists conviction with > other conviction. Due > to our this terror soft approach, we are unable to fight > terror to the > extent what actually we should do. > > I have never mentioned that Afsalguru should be given > priority for > punishment because he belongs to minority, but due to > terrorist act > conviction only. Whoever involved in this and even in the > future any > religion should be treated as same for terror conviction. > > Afsalguru case is clear minor appeasement for not executing > his conviction > and goes wrong message to terror groups and encourage them > further. Legal > experts clearly says there is no such law to go with queue > for death > sentence matter. Earlier such execution of death sentence > carried out, out > of turn in the couple of occasions. > > Constitution of India (SC) has already convicted death > sentence in 2006, > this cabinet for strange reason delaying it. So, this is > clear minor > appeasement case Dear Kshemendra. This is where congress > lack will to fight > terrorism. > > You personally oppose death sentence is altogether > different issue. Our > constitution permits death sentence, so you argument at > present is > irrelevant of blood thirsty animal from Indian point of > view. It is > unfortunate that people like you oppose death sentence for > the people who is > blood thirsty for hundreds or thousands of people. You want > to save the life > of one person who engaged in blood bath and take lives of > 100/1000 of > people!!! > > India is barbaric in your view by adopting death sentence > than those nation > like US, China, Pakistan and many more are also barbaric > for adopting this > law. This is about 70% of world population is barbaric > according to you! > > Thanks > Bipin > > > > From: Kshmendra Kaul [mailto:kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com] > > Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 4:10 PM > To: Bipin Trivedi > Cc: sarai-list > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > Dear Bipin > > You have missed the central point. The Constitution of > India gives that > right to Ajmal Kasab and also to Afzal Guru. > > FYI Afzal Guru is not the only one who's appeal for waiver > of 'death > penalty' is pending with the President. And most of the > others are Hindus. > So stop obsessing about 'appeasement of minorities' in this > case. > > The Constitution of India is not so petty that it will be > changed just > because you or someone else or even if millions of Indians > want to deny > Kasab the tiered rights to Courts and appeal to President. > > Bipin, one should not accuse others of behaving > like blood-thirsty animals > and then become a blood-thirsty animal himself/herself. > > Kshmendra > > > --- On Fri, 5/7/10, Bipin Trivedi > wrote: > > From: Bipin Trivedi > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > To: "'Kshmendra Kaul'" > Cc: "sarai-list" > Date: Friday, May 7, 2010, 3:37 PM > Dear Kshemendra, > > Parliament can and has right to make such decision if show > will. But, > congress cannot show such will, who prolonged even > Afsalguru conviction > keeping pending for so long for their vote bank politics. > Comparison with > Shah Bano for the reason of vote bank politics only to > appealing minor. > Reverting shah Bano verdict is classic example of minor > appeasement and the > same case with Afsalguru and I am fear for Kasav also same > thing might > happen. > > Thanks > Bipin > > > > > From: Kshmendra Kaul [mailto:kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com] > > Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 1:35 PM > To: sarai-list; Bipin Trivedi > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > Dear Bipin > > A. I am against the death penalty for anyone for any crime > whatsoever. I > believe the 'death penalty' is awarded in barbaric > societies, and yes, India > is still barbaric in many ways. > > B. You might disagree on the above. That does not change > the opportunity > allowed in India for anyone convicted in a crime in a Lower > Court to take > the matter to a Higher Cour. > > Since it is a question of a 'death penalty', Kasab > has the right to > have his case heard by the Higher Courts right upto the > Supreme Court. After > that he has the right to appeal to the President for waiver > of the 'death > penalty'. The Constitution of India provides that right. > You cannot compare > Civil Law of the Shah Bano case witha 'death penalty' being > awarded. > > No one can take that right away from Kasab. > > Kshmendra > > > --- On Thu, 5/6/10, Bipin Trivedi > wrote: > > From: Bipin Trivedi > Subject: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > To: "sarai-list" > Date: Thursday, May 6, 2010, 3:33 PM > AS EXPECTED, KASAV RIGHTLY GOT DEATH SENTENCE. > > Though terrorist's Kasav case was crystal clear, but still > we have gone for > about 17 months fair trial and proved that how transparent > our judicial > system is unlike Pakistan. But, after this trial and > judgment, he should not > allow to appeal in the higher court and should be hanged in > public > immediately without further judicial procedure. if Indira > Gandhi (ex PM) > deny to obey court verdict and neglect law and Shah Banu > case was revert out > of law by parliament than why cannot this? India should > show the world that > country cannot compromise in integrity and take hard action > if required like > open public death sentence. > > Thanks > Bipin > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From yasir.media at gmail.com Sun May 9 22:52:22 2010 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?eWFzaXIgftmK2Kcg2LPYsQ==?=) Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 22:22:22 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Public Enemy vs Arizona: Sonic Immigration In-Reply-To: <88375B1D-F627-4BD2-AC02-9036A3B0581C@earthlink.net> References: <24521732.1273327952042.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <056B0CBF-EDEF-4BF1-B30F-0B09A5B3B55A@earthlink.net> <04A3F8C2-F640-4991-9EAA-0C71A9966E29@earthlink.net> <88375B1D-F627-4BD2-AC02-9036A3B0581C@earthlink.net> Message-ID: This guy is not worth arguing with. he does not concede on arguments. if i remember correctly he was also on early rhizome-raw. and then he cuts and runs. سلام שָׁלוֹם y ps: give my regards to israeli butchers. On Sun, May 9, 2010 at 9:13 PM, Paul D. Miller wrote: > Actually, I don't think all Republicans are moronic hippocrites. Lincoln > was pretty intriguing, and as bad as Nixon was, he expanded public parks and > created alot of nature reserves... > > But yeah. Republicans always take some kind of 'high horse' type situation > that only works if you don't pay attention to details - which regretfully, > too many Americans don't. > > I'll give Republicans credit though - for being relentlessly evil. It's > intriguing. They never, ever stop. > > But, no, not all evil comes from Republicans. Usually the culprit is > basically just plain unwillingness to think about facts and complexity. > Republicans usually want really simple answers for very complex situations. > It's a tragedy for the 21st century that they are taken even vaguely > serious. > > Remember those good old 'weapons of mass destruction in Iraq?' or the db > gay marriage scare of the last election? Or Sarah Palins hilarious take on > geo-politics that was worthy of Saturday Nite Live? > > Sent from my iPhone > > On May 9, 2010, at 5:57 PM, Joshua Zeidner wrote: > > > > What is your point, Paul? > > that all evil stems from the Republican Party and 'right wingers'? > > -jmz > > > > On Sun, May 9, 2010 at 8:54 AM, Paul D. Miller < > anansi1 at earthlink.net> wrote: > >> Which class of Muslim? The Saudi's? Ask Bush-Bandar... >> >> This is a retarded question - there are many kinds of Muslim. An many >> Iranian Americans (yes, Sunni...), vote Republican, like conservative >> Cubans. Look what good voting for Rebulicans has done either of their >> countries.... >> >> Paul >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On May 9, 2010, at 5:49 PM, Joshua Zeidner < >> jjzeidner at gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> Paul, >> >> then why do Muslims vote overwhelmingly Democrat? >> >> -jmz >> >> >> On Sun, May 9, 2010 at 8:40 AM, Paul D. Miller < >> anansi1 at earthlink.net> wrote: >> >>> Let's see who is making excuses for Islamic terrorism: >>> >>> Bush - whose cozy relationship with te Bin Laden family and Saudi >>> Monarchy set the stage for several of the major developments leading to 9/11 >>> >>> Or Halliburton/Dick Cheney who do major oil contract work for Saudi >>> companies and even violate US sanctions on Iran? >>> >>> The right wing always has selective amnesia... >>> >>> >>> Paul >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On May 9, 2010, at 4:47 PM, Joshua Zeidner < >>> jjzeidner at gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Yasir! >>>> >>>> Still making excuses for Islamic terrorism? >>>> >>>> -jmz >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, May 9, 2010 at 4:00 AM, yasir ~يا سر < >>>> yasir.media at gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> You've diagnosed this one properly. Josh goes back to the thingist list >>>>> around 2001-4. i see he's still spouting and needessly small-mindedly >>>>> arguing. its best to just ignore him and not engage. >>>>> >>>>> best >>>>> yasir >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, May 8, 2010 at 7:12 PM, Paul D. Miller < >>>>> anansi1 at earthlink.net >>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hello to Josh and the Sarai list. I apologize about the delay in >>>>>> communication, but I had a concert in Khartoum, Sudan, and there were >>>>>> thousands of people at the show, and it was a demonstration of some of >>>>>> >>>>> the >>>>> >>>>>> unique qualities of why reaching out past the norms of the kind of >>>>>> >>>>> paranoid >>>>> >>>>>> scenarios Josh has been spouting on the list is exactly what I think >>>>>> the >>>>>> world needs more of. >>>>>> >>>>>> To those on the list that haven't heard the track I did with Public >>>>>> >>>>> Enemy, >>>>> >>>>>> you can hear it here: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html >>>>>> >>>>>> And yo Josh - screw your crappy music taste... >>>>>> >>>>>> Josh - why do you think that the Phoenix Suns has changed their name >>>>>> to >>>>>> "Los Suns": >>>>>> Team owner Robert Sarver says the Spanish jersey is meant to, quote, >>>>>> >>>>> "honor >>>>> >>>>>> our Latino community and the diversity of our league, the state of >>>>>> >>>>> Arizona >>>>> >>>>>> and our nation." >>>>>> >>>>>> The Arizona reactionary stance towards immigration is what I think is >>>>>> a >>>>>> betrayal of the country, and I believe that naive people like the >>>>>> right >>>>>> >>>>> wing >>>>> >>>>>> types who espouse it have no idea about the economics of what they're >>>>>> talking about. The trouble is that as a larger political ideology, its >>>>>> hateful and divisive message is encouraging ever more misguided >>>>>> madness. >>>>>> >>>>>> Some examples: >>>>>> >>>>>> Read more: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://newsbusters.org/blogs/scott-whitlock/2010/05/05/msnbcs-dylan-ratigan-gives-kudos-arizona-basketball-team-protesting-#ixzz0nLQzAkyL >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> The problem is this: you can't argue with right wing lunatics like >>>>>> Josh - >>>>>> facts don't matter. We learned this during the Bush era, and we've >>>>>> seen >>>>>> >>>>> the >>>>> >>>>>> Tea Party idiots doing the same thing. I belong in what I like to >>>>>> call, >>>>>> ironically, after Bush, "the reality based community." Interdependence >>>>>> in >>>>>> >>>>> a >>>>> >>>>>> hyper glob >>>>>> >>>>> >> >> >> -- >> >> > > > -- > > From jjzeidner at gmail.com Sun May 9 22:57:56 2010 From: jjzeidner at gmail.com (Joshua Zeidner) Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 10:27:56 -0700 Subject: [Reader-list] Public Enemy vs Arizona: Sonic Immigration In-Reply-To: References: <24521732.1273327952042.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <056B0CBF-EDEF-4BF1-B30F-0B09A5B3B55A@earthlink.net> <04A3F8C2-F640-4991-9EAA-0C71A9966E29@earthlink.net> <88375B1D-F627-4BD2-AC02-9036A3B0581C@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Hi habibi, Cuts and runs? I don't think so. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gi-c6lbFGC4&feature=fvw -jmz On Sun, May 9, 2010 at 10:22 AM, yasir ~يا سر wrote: > This guy is not worth arguing with. he does not concede on arguments. > if i remember correctly he was also on early rhizome-raw. > and then he cuts and runs. > سلام שָׁלוֹם > y > > ps: give my regards to israeli butchers. > > > > > On Sun, May 9, 2010 at 9:13 PM, Paul D. Miller >wrote: > > > Actually, I don't think all Republicans are moronic hippocrites. Lincoln > > was pretty intriguing, and as bad as Nixon was, he expanded public parks > and > > created alot of nature reserves... > > > > But yeah. Republicans always take some kind of 'high horse' type > situation > > that only works if you don't pay attention to details - which > regretfully, > > too many Americans don't. > > > > I'll give Republicans credit though - for being relentlessly evil. It's > > intriguing. They never, ever stop. > > > > But, no, not all evil comes from Republicans. Usually the culprit is > > basically just plain unwillingness to think about facts and complexity. > > Republicans usually want really simple answers for very complex > situations. > > It's a tragedy for the 21st century that they are taken even vaguely > > serious. > > > > Remember those good old 'weapons of mass destruction in Iraq?' or the db > > gay marriage scare of the last election? Or Sarah Palins hilarious take > on > > geo-politics that was worthy of Saturday Nite Live? > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > On May 9, 2010, at 5:57 PM, Joshua Zeidner wrote: > > > > > > > > What is your point, Paul? > > > > that all evil stems from the Republican Party and 'right wingers'? > > > > -jmz > > > > > > > > On Sun, May 9, 2010 at 8:54 AM, Paul D. Miller < > > anansi1 at earthlink.net> wrote: > > > >> Which class of Muslim? The Saudi's? Ask Bush-Bandar... > >> > >> This is a retarded question - there are many kinds of Muslim. An many > >> Iranian Americans (yes, Sunni...), vote Republican, like conservative > >> Cubans. Look what good voting for Rebulicans has done either of their > >> countries.... > >> > >> Paul > >> > >> Sent from my iPhone > >> > >> On May 9, 2010, at 5:49 PM, Joshua Zeidner < > >> jjzeidner at gmail.com> wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Paul, > >> > >> then why do Muslims vote overwhelmingly Democrat? > >> > >> -jmz > >> > >> > >> On Sun, May 9, 2010 at 8:40 AM, Paul D. Miller < > > >> anansi1 at earthlink.net> wrote: > >> > >>> Let's see who is making excuses for Islamic terrorism: > >>> > >>> Bush - whose cozy relationship with te Bin Laden family and Saudi > >>> Monarchy set the stage for several of the major developments leading to > 9/11 > >>> > >>> Or Halliburton/Dick Cheney who do major oil contract work for Saudi > >>> companies and even violate US sanctions on Iran? > >>> > >>> The right wing always has selective amnesia... > >>> > >>> > >>> Paul > >>> > >>> Sent from my iPhone > >>> > >>> On May 9, 2010, at 4:47 PM, Joshua Zeidner < < > jjzeidner at gmail.com> > >>> jjzeidner at gmail.com> wrote: > >>> > >>> Hi Yasir! > >>>> > >>>> Still making excuses for Islamic terrorism? > >>>> > >>>> -jmz > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Sun, May 9, 2010 at 4:00 AM, yasir ~يا سر < > > >>>> yasir.media at gmail.com> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> You've diagnosed this one properly. Josh goes back to the thingist > list > >>>>> around 2001-4. i see he's still spouting and needessly small-mindedly > >>>>> arguing. its best to just ignore him and not engage. > >>>>> > >>>>> best > >>>>> yasir > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On Sat, May 8, 2010 at 7:12 PM, Paul D. Miller << > anansi1 at earthlink.net> > >>>>> anansi1 at earthlink.net > >>>>> > >>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Hello to Josh and the Sarai list. I apologize about the delay in > >>>>>> communication, but I had a concert in Khartoum, Sudan, and there > were > >>>>>> thousands of people at the show, and it was a demonstration of some > of > >>>>>> > >>>>> the > >>>>> > >>>>>> unique qualities of why reaching out past the norms of the kind of > >>>>>> > >>>>> paranoid > >>>>> > >>>>>> scenarios Josh has been spouting on the list is exactly what I think > >>>>>> the > >>>>>> world needs more of. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> To those on the list that haven't heard the track I did with Public > >>>>>> > >>>>> Enemy, > >>>>> > >>>>>> you can hear it here: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> < > http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html> > >>>>>> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html > >>>>>> > >>>>>> And yo Josh - screw your crappy music taste... > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Josh - why do you think that the Phoenix Suns has changed their name > >>>>>> to > >>>>>> "Los Suns": > >>>>>> Team owner Robert Sarver says the Spanish jersey is meant to, quote, > >>>>>> > >>>>> "honor > >>>>> > >>>>>> our Latino community and the diversity of our league, the state of > >>>>>> > >>>>> Arizona > >>>>> > >>>>>> and our nation." > >>>>>> > >>>>>> The Arizona reactionary stance towards immigration is what I think > is > >>>>>> a > >>>>>> betrayal of the country, and I believe that naive people like the > >>>>>> right > >>>>>> > >>>>> wing > >>>>> > >>>>>> types who espouse it have no idea about the economics of what > they're > >>>>>> talking about. The trouble is that as a larger political ideology, > its > >>>>>> hateful and divisive message is encouraging ever more misguided > >>>>>> madness. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Some examples: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Read more: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> < > http://newsbusters.org/blogs/scott-whitlock/2010/05/05/msnbcs-dylan-ratigan-gives-kudos-arizona-basketball-team-protesting-#ixzz0nLQzAkyL > >< > http://newsbusters.org/blogs/scott-whitlock/2010/05/05/msnbcs-dylan-ratigan-gives-kudos-arizona-basketball-team-protesting-#ixzz0nLQzAkyL > > > >>>>> > http://newsbusters.org/blogs/scott-whitlock/2010/05/05/msnbcs-dylan-ratigan-gives-kudos-arizona-basketball-team-protesting-#ixzz0nLQzAkyL > >>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> The problem is this: you can't argue with right wing lunatics like > >>>>>> Josh - > >>>>>> facts don't matter. We learned this during the Bush era, and we've > >>>>>> seen > >>>>>> > >>>>> the > >>>>> > >>>>>> Tea Party idiots doing the same thing. I belong in what I like to > >>>>>> call, > >>>>>> ironically, after Bush, "the reality based community." > Interdependence > >>>>>> in > >>>>>> > >>>>> a > >>>>> > >>>>>> hyper glob > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> > >> > > > > > > -- > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- From yasir.media at gmail.com Sun May 9 23:11:23 2010 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?eWFzaXIgftmK2Kcg2LPYsQ==?=) Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 22:41:23 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Public Enemy vs Arizona: Sonic Immigration In-Reply-To: References: <24521732.1273327952042.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <056B0CBF-EDEF-4BF1-B30F-0B09A5B3B55A@earthlink.net> <04A3F8C2-F640-4991-9EAA-0C71A9966E29@earthlink.net> <88375B1D-F627-4BD2-AC02-9036A3B0581C@earthlink.net> Message-ID: how is it that spam bots (tickets sent out from sarai address___) and josh arrived on this list at the same time. any mystery here? On Sun, May 9, 2010 at 10:27 PM, Joshua Zeidner wrote: > > Hi habibi, > > Cuts and runs? I don't think so. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gi-c6lbFGC4&feature=fvw > > -jmz > > > On Sun, May 9, 2010 at 10:22 AM, yasir ~يا سر wrote: > >> This guy is not worth arguing with. he does not concede on arguments. >> if i remember correctly he was also on early rhizome-raw. >> and then he cuts and runs. >> سلام שָׁלוֹם >> y >> >> ps: give my regards to israeli butchers. >> >> >> >> >> On Sun, May 9, 2010 at 9:13 PM, Paul D. Miller > >wrote: >> >> > Actually, I don't think all Republicans are moronic hippocrites. Lincoln >> > was pretty intriguing, and as bad as Nixon was, he expanded public parks >> and >> > created alot of nature reserves... >> > >> > But yeah. Republicans always take some kind of 'high horse' type >> situation >> > that only works if you don't pay attention to details - which >> regretfully, >> > too many Americans don't. >> > >> > I'll give Republicans credit though - for being relentlessly evil. It's >> > intriguing. They never, ever stop. >> > >> > But, no, not all evil comes from Republicans. Usually the culprit is >> > basically just plain unwillingness to think about facts and complexity. >> > Republicans usually want really simple answers for very complex >> situations. >> > It's a tragedy for the 21st century that they are taken even vaguely >> > serious. >> > >> > Remember those good old 'weapons of mass destruction in Iraq?' or the db >> > gay marriage scare of the last election? Or Sarah Palins hilarious take >> on >> > geo-politics that was worthy of Saturday Nite Live? >> > >> > Sent from my iPhone >> > >> > On May 9, 2010, at 5:57 PM, Joshua Zeidner wrote: >> > >> > >> > >> > What is your point, Paul? >> > >> > that all evil stems from the Republican Party and 'right wingers'? >> > >> > -jmz >> > >> > >> > >> > On Sun, May 9, 2010 at 8:54 AM, Paul D. Miller < > > >> > anansi1 at earthlink.net> wrote: >> > >> >> Which class of Muslim? The Saudi's? Ask Bush-Bandar... >> >> >> >> This is a retarded question - there are many kinds of Muslim. An many >> >> Iranian Americans (yes, Sunni...), vote Republican, like conservative >> >> Cubans. Look what good voting for Rebulicans has done either of their >> >> countries.... >> >> >> >> Paul >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> >> >> On May 9, 2010, at 5:49 PM, Joshua Zeidner < >> >> jjzeidner at gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Paul, >> >> >> >> then why do Muslims vote overwhelmingly Democrat? >> >> >> >> -jmz >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sun, May 9, 2010 at 8:40 AM, Paul D. Miller < < >> anansi1 at earthlink.net> >> >> >> anansi1 at earthlink.net> wrote: >> >> >> >>> Let's see who is making excuses for Islamic terrorism: >> >>> >> >>> Bush - whose cozy relationship with te Bin Laden family and Saudi >> >>> Monarchy set the stage for several of the major developments leading >> to 9/11 >> >>> >> >>> Or Halliburton/Dick Cheney who do major oil contract work for Saudi >> >>> companies and even violate US sanctions on Iran? >> >>> >> >>> The right wing always has selective amnesia... >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Paul >> >>> >> >>> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> >> >>> On May 9, 2010, at 4:47 PM, Joshua Zeidner < < >> jjzeidner at gmail.com> >> >> >>> jjzeidner at gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> Hi Yasir! >> >>>> >> >>>> Still making excuses for Islamic terrorism? >> >>>> >> >>>> -jmz >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> On Sun, May 9, 2010 at 4:00 AM, yasir ~يا سر < < >> yasir.media at gmail.com> >> >> >>>> yasir.media at gmail.com> wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>> You've diagnosed this one properly. Josh goes back to the thingist >> list >> >>>>> around 2001-4. i see he's still spouting and needessly >> small-mindedly >> >>>>> arguing. its best to just ignore him and not engage. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> best >> >>>>> yasir >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> On Sat, May 8, 2010 at 7:12 PM, Paul D. Miller << >> anansi1 at earthlink.net> >> >> >>>>> anansi1 at earthlink.net >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> wrote: >> >>>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Hello to Josh and the Sarai list. I apologize about the delay in >> >>>>>> communication, but I had a concert in Khartoum, Sudan, and there >> were >> >>>>>> thousands of people at the show, and it was a demonstration of some >> of >> >>>>>> >> >>>>> the >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> unique qualities of why reaching out past the norms of the kind of >> >>>>>> >> >>>>> paranoid >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> scenarios Josh has been spouting on the list is exactly what I >> think >> >>>>>> the >> >>>>>> world needs more of. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> To those on the list that haven't heard the track I did with Public >> >>>>>> >> >>>>> Enemy, >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> you can hear it here: >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> < >> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html> >> >> >>>>>> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> And yo Josh - screw your crappy music taste... >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Josh - why do you think that the Phoenix Suns has changed their >> name >> >>>>>> to >> >>>>>> "Los Suns": >> >>>>>> Team owner Robert Sarver says the Spanish jersey is meant to, >> quote, >> >>>>>> >> >>>>> "honor >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> our Latino community and the diversity of our league, the state of >> >>>>>> >> >>>>> Arizona >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> and our nation." >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> The Arizona reactionary stance towards immigration is what I think >> is >> >>>>>> a >> >>>>>> betrayal of the country, and I believe that naive people like the >> >>>>>> right >> >>>>>> >> >>>>> wing >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> types who espouse it have no idea about the economics of what >> they're >> >>>>>> talking about. The trouble is that as a larger political ideology, >> its >> >>>>>> hateful and divisive message is encouraging ever more misguided >> >>>>>> madness. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Some examples: >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Read more: >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>> < >> http://newsbusters.org/blogs/scott-whitlock/2010/05/05/msnbcs-dylan-ratigan-gives-kudos-arizona-basketball-team-protesting-#ixzz0nLQzAkyL >> >< >> http://newsbusters.org/blogs/scott-whitlock/2010/05/05/msnbcs-dylan-ratigan-gives-kudos-arizona-basketball-team-protesting-#ixzz0nLQzAkyL >> > >> >> >>>>> >> http://newsbusters.org/blogs/scott-whitlock/2010/05/05/msnbcs-dylan-ratigan-gives-kudos-arizona-basketball-team-protesting-#ixzz0nLQzAkyL >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> The problem is this: you can't argue with right wing lunatics like >> >>>>>> Josh - >> >>>>>> facts don't matter. We learned this during the Bush era, and we've >> >>>>>> seen >> >>>>>> >> >>>>> the >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> Tea Party idiots doing the same thing. I belong in what I like to >> >>>>>> call, >> >>>>>> ironically, after Bush, "the reality based community." >> Interdependence >> >>>>>> in >> >>>>>> >> >>>>> a >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> hyper glob >> >>>>>> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > -- >> > >> > >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > > > -- > > From jjzeidner at gmail.com Sun May 9 23:27:47 2010 From: jjzeidner at gmail.com (Joshua Zeidner) Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 10:57:47 -0700 Subject: [Reader-list] Public Enemy vs Arizona: Sonic Immigration In-Reply-To: References: <24521732.1273327952042.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <056B0CBF-EDEF-4BF1-B30F-0B09A5B3B55A@earthlink.net> <04A3F8C2-F640-4991-9EAA-0C71A9966E29@earthlink.net> <88375B1D-F627-4BD2-AC02-9036A3B0581C@earthlink.net> Message-ID: What's the matter, Yasir? You didn't like the TV show? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hlxvMYu28Y&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_3RUwAJ_MI&feature=related -jmz On Sun, May 9, 2010 at 10:41 AM, yasir ~يا سر wrote: > how is it that spam bots (tickets sent out from sarai address___) > and josh arrived on this list at the same time. any mystery here? > > > > > On Sun, May 9, 2010 at 10:27 PM, Joshua Zeidner > wrote: > > > > > Hi habibi, > > > > Cuts and runs? I don't think so. > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gi-c6lbFGC4&feature=fvw > > > > -jmz > > > > > > On Sun, May 9, 2010 at 10:22 AM, yasir ~يا سر >wrote: > > > >> This guy is not worth arguing with. he does not concede on arguments. > >> if i remember correctly he was also on early rhizome-raw. > >> and then he cuts and runs. > >> سلام שָׁלוֹם > >> y > >> > >> ps: give my regards to israeli butchers. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On Sun, May 9, 2010 at 9:13 PM, Paul D. Miller >> >wrote: > >> > >> > Actually, I don't think all Republicans are moronic hippocrites. > Lincoln > >> > was pretty intriguing, and as bad as Nixon was, he expanded public > parks > >> and > >> > created alot of nature reserves... > >> > > >> > But yeah. Republicans always take some kind of 'high horse' type > >> situation > >> > that only works if you don't pay attention to details - which > >> regretfully, > >> > too many Americans don't. > >> > > >> > I'll give Republicans credit though - for being relentlessly evil. > It's > >> > intriguing. They never, ever stop. > >> > > >> > But, no, not all evil comes from Republicans. Usually the culprit is > >> > basically just plain unwillingness to think about facts and > complexity. > >> > Republicans usually want really simple answers for very complex > >> situations. > >> > It's a tragedy for the 21st century that they are taken even vaguely > >> > serious. > >> > > >> > Remember those good old 'weapons of mass destruction in Iraq?' or the > db > >> > gay marriage scare of the last election? Or Sarah Palins hilarious > take > >> on > >> > geo-politics that was worthy of Saturday Nite Live? > >> > > >> > Sent from my iPhone > >> > > >> > On May 9, 2010, at 5:57 PM, Joshua Zeidner > wrote: > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > What is your point, Paul? > >> > > >> > that all evil stems from the Republican Party and 'right wingers'? > >> > > >> > -jmz > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > On Sun, May 9, 2010 at 8:54 AM, Paul D. Miller < < > anansi1 at earthlink.net > >> > > >> > anansi1 at earthlink.net> wrote: > >> > > >> >> Which class of Muslim? The Saudi's? Ask Bush-Bandar... > >> >> > >> >> This is a retarded question - there are many kinds of Muslim. An many > >> >> Iranian Americans (yes, Sunni...), vote Republican, like conservative > >> >> Cubans. Look what good voting for Rebulicans has done either of their > >> >> countries.... > >> >> > >> >> Paul > >> >> > >> >> Sent from my iPhone > >> >> > >> >> On May 9, 2010, at 5:49 PM, Joshua Zeidner < > >> >> jjzeidner at gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Paul, > >> >> > >> >> then why do Muslims vote overwhelmingly Democrat? > >> >> > >> >> -jmz > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> On Sun, May 9, 2010 at 8:40 AM, Paul D. Miller < < > >> anansi1 at earthlink.net> > >> > >> >> anansi1 at earthlink.net> wrote: > >> >> > >> >>> Let's see who is making excuses for Islamic terrorism: > >> >>> > >> >>> Bush - whose cozy relationship with te Bin Laden family and Saudi > >> >>> Monarchy set the stage for several of the major developments leading > >> to 9/11 > >> >>> > >> >>> Or Halliburton/Dick Cheney who do major oil contract work for Saudi > >> >>> companies and even violate US sanctions on Iran? > >> >>> > >> >>> The right wing always has selective amnesia... > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> Paul > >> >>> > >> >>> Sent from my iPhone > >> >>> > >> >>> On May 9, 2010, at 4:47 PM, Joshua Zeidner < < > >> jjzeidner at gmail.com> > >> > >> >>> jjzeidner at gmail.com> wrote: > >> >>> > >> >>> Hi Yasir! > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Still making excuses for Islamic terrorism? > >> >>>> > >> >>>> -jmz > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> On Sun, May 9, 2010 at 4:00 AM, yasir ~يا سر < < > >> yasir.media at gmail.com> > >> > >> >>>> yasir.media at gmail.com> wrote: > >> >>>> > >> >>>> You've diagnosed this one properly. Josh goes back to the thingist > >> list > >> >>>>> around 2001-4. i see he's still spouting and needessly > >> small-mindedly > >> >>>>> arguing. its best to just ignore him and not engage. > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> best > >> >>>>> yasir > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> On Sat, May 8, 2010 at 7:12 PM, Paul D. Miller << > >> anansi1 at earthlink.net> > >> > >> >>>>> anansi1 at earthlink.net > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>>> wrote: > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> Hello to Josh and the Sarai list. I apologize about the delay in > >> >>>>>> communication, but I had a concert in Khartoum, Sudan, and there > >> were > >> >>>>>> thousands of people at the show, and it was a demonstration of > some > >> of > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>> the > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>>> unique qualities of why reaching out past the norms of the kind > of > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>> paranoid > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>>> scenarios Josh has been spouting on the list is exactly what I > >> think > >> >>>>>> the > >> >>>>>> world needs more of. > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> To those on the list that haven't heard the track I did with > Public > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>> Enemy, > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>>> you can hear it here: > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> < > >> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html> > >> > >> >>>>>> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> And yo Josh - screw your crappy music taste... > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> Josh - why do you think that the Phoenix Suns has changed their > >> name > >> >>>>>> to > >> >>>>>> "Los Suns": > >> >>>>>> Team owner Robert Sarver says the Spanish jersey is meant to, > >> quote, > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>> "honor > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>>> our Latino community and the diversity of our league, the state > of > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>> Arizona > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>>> and our nation." > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> The Arizona reactionary stance towards immigration is what I > think > >> is > >> >>>>>> a > >> >>>>>> betrayal of the country, and I believe that naive people like the > >> >>>>>> right > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>> wing > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>>> types who espouse it have no idea about the economics of what > >> they're > >> >>>>>> talking about. The trouble is that as a larger political > ideology, > >> its > >> >>>>>> hateful and divisive message is encouraging ever more misguided > >> >>>>>> madness. > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> Some examples: > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> Read more: > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>> < > >> > http://newsbusters.org/blogs/scott-whitlock/2010/05/05/msnbcs-dylan-ratigan-gives-kudos-arizona-basketball-team-protesting-#ixzz0nLQzAkyL > >> >< > >> > http://newsbusters.org/blogs/scott-whitlock/2010/05/05/msnbcs-dylan-ratigan-gives-kudos-arizona-basketball-team-protesting-#ixzz0nLQzAkyL > >> > > >> > >> >>>>> > >> > http://newsbusters.org/blogs/scott-whitlock/2010/05/05/msnbcs-dylan-ratigan-gives-kudos-arizona-basketball-team-protesting-#ixzz0nLQzAkyL > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> The problem is this: you can't argue with right wing lunatics > like > >> >>>>>> Josh - > >> >>>>>> facts don't matter. We learned this during the Bush era, and > we've > >> >>>>>> seen > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>> the > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>>> Tea Party idiots doing the same thing. I belong in what I like to > >> >>>>>> call, > >> >>>>>> ironically, after Bush, "the reality based community." > >> Interdependence > >> >>>>>> in > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>> a > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>>> hyper glob > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> -- > >> >> > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > > >> > > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- From yasir.media at gmail.com Mon May 10 00:09:54 2010 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?eWFzaXIgftmK2Kcg2LPYsQ==?=) Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 23:39:54 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Public Enemy vs Arizona: Sonic Immigration In-Reply-To: References: <24521732.1273327952042.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <056B0CBF-EDEF-4BF1-B30F-0B09A5B3B55A@earthlink.net> <04A3F8C2-F640-4991-9EAA-0C71A9966E29@earthlink.net> <88375B1D-F627-4BD2-AC02-9036A3B0581C@earthlink.net> Message-ID: http://artmedication.wordpress.com/2009/12/08/ray-lichtenstein-drowning-girl/ From jjzeidner at gmail.com Mon May 10 00:47:43 2010 From: jjzeidner at gmail.com (Joshua Zeidner) Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 12:17:43 -0700 Subject: [Reader-list] Public Enemy vs Arizona: Sonic Immigration In-Reply-To: References: <24521732.1273327952042.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <04A3F8C2-F640-4991-9EAA-0C71A9966E29@earthlink.net> <88375B1D-F627-4BD2-AC02-9036A3B0581C@earthlink.net> Message-ID: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFyJJAarXHc&feature=player_embedded On Sun, May 9, 2010 at 11:39 AM, yasir ~يا سر wrote: > > http://artmedication.wordpress.com/2009/12/08/ray-lichtenstein-drowning-girl/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- From yasir.media at gmail.com Mon May 10 03:50:27 2010 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?eWFzaXIgftmK2Kcg2LPYsQ==?=) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 03:20:27 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Public Enemy vs Arizona: Sonic Immigration In-Reply-To: References: <24521732.1273327952042.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <04A3F8C2-F640-4991-9EAA-0C71A9966E29@earthlink.net> <88375B1D-F627-4BD2-AC02-9036A3B0581C@earthlink.net> Message-ID: http://www.crimefilenews.com/2009/12/phoenix-az-accused-in-abduction-and.html On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 12:17 AM, Joshua Zeidner wrote: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFyJJAarXHc&feature=player_embedded > > > > On Sun, May 9, 2010 at 11:39 AM, yasir ~يا سر wrote: > >> >> http://artmedication.wordpress.com/2009/12/08/ray-lichtenstein-drowning-girl/ >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > > > -- > > From anansi1 at earthlink.net Mon May 10 04:16:49 2010 From: anansi1 at earthlink.net (Paul D. Miller) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 00:46:49 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] Public Enemy vs Arizona: Sonic Immigration In-Reply-To: References: <24521732.1273327952042.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <04A3F8C2-F640-4991-9EAA-0C71A9966E29@earthlink.net> <88375B1D-F627-4BD2-AC02-9036A3B0581C@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Yassir - yeah, I think I understand this better. I'd suggest that you check out local conditions Josh is responding to in Arizona like Sheriff Joe Arpaio who makes inmates in the Maricopa County jails wear pink underwear and who is one of the weirdest law enforcement officials in the US. You couldn't make up a stranger Republican. Josh is just the tip of the iceberg. Send him some pink underwear.., Paul Sent from my iPhone On May 10, 2010, at 12:20 AM, yasir ~يا سر wrote: > http://www.crimefilenews.com/2009/12/phoenix-az-accused-in-abduction-and.html > > > > On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 12:17 AM, Joshua Zeidner > wrote: > >> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFyJJAarXHc&feature=player_embedded >> >> >> >> On Sun, May 9, 2010 at 11:39 AM, yasir ~يا سر >> wrote: >> >>> >>> http://artmedication.wordpress.com/2009/12/08/ray-lichtenstein-drowning-girl/ >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Mon May 10 09:48:59 2010 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 09:48:59 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Uttar Pradesh cleric calls for independence in Jammu and Kashmir Message-ID: Wish some muslims from UP and elsewhere condemn this.... http://www.risingkashmir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=23230&Itemid=1 A grand religious scholar of India, Mufti Muhammad Ayoub here Sunday said Muslims in Jammu Kashmir were justified demanding freedom from India. Ayoub termed Kashmir’s freedom struggle a “right choice of the people”. Ayoub, an authority on Hadith, is here to participate in a one-day Muslim Conference organised by Jamia Razvia Ashrafia in Rajouri. He said people of Jammu Kashmir were on the right path while demanding freedom from India. “Demanding freedom is not a sin. It’s good thinking of the people of the State.” However, he said the idea of accession of Kashmir to Pakistan would be a “big blunder”. “People should not think over it. Pakistan cannot do justice with Kashmir as they are not doing justice with their own people,” he said. “Demanding freedom is a good proposal as there is injustice with the people of this State.” Ayoub said Muslims in India live like orphans. “Until Indian Muslims unite and form their own political outfit, their future will remain bleak.” He called crores of Indian Muslims to wake up from their “deep slumber” and constitute a political outfit to lead Indian Muslims. “Though Congress is showing interest in Muslims, we’ve to unite and form our own political party,” he said. Terming Indian Muslims no less than orphans, Ayoub said Muslims must support Muslim League, the party which has a member in the parliament. “I personally desire to support Muslim League,” he said. “Muslims cannot nourish in the present Indian environment. We’ve to come forward and constitute our own outfit.” Terming the mushrooming of Muslim sects as a conspiracy against Islam, Ayoub said Islam is a religion of peace, unity and brotherhood and Ummah should not indulge in making sections in Islam. “If we recite one Kalima, we’re one.” Rejecting the Unified Civil Law proposal, he said: “No power in India can change Muslim Personal Law.” He said: “We reject unified civil law proposal and we’ll continue to follow our personal law.” On the need of modern education in the Madarsas, Ayoub said Indian Muslim should not run away from technology. “Nobody is against technology. We’ve decided to start science, technology and computer education in Madarsas and already initiated various such projects in Uttar Pradesh.” From pawan.durani at gmail.com Mon May 10 09:50:53 2010 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 09:50:53 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmir lawyer issues "open appeal" to SC against Ajmal Kasaab's conviction | Message-ID: 26/11 verdict: Kashmir lawyer’s open appeal to SC Ishfaq Tantry Srinagar, May 07: Questioning the legality and the admissibility, as evidence, the tapped inter-country mobile conversations in the trial of Ajmal Amir Kasab, an eminent criminal and constitutional Kashmiri lawyer has said introduction of such evidence may be against the "essence of various conventions for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms, to which India is a party". Advocate Syed Tassaduq Hussain, in an open appeal to the Supreme Court of India, has asked that the link between various human rights conventions and national legislation should be "subjected to inquiry and fresh re-thinking". Says the Valley-based senior High Court lawyer, “The May 6 verdict, condemning Ajmal Kasab, is the exhibition of naked failure of Indian judicial system in a homogeneous dimension, showing that the trail procedures adopted in this case transgress basic norms of decency and fairness, without which the civilisational values often get jeopardised.” Saying the indictment of an accused on 86 counts in a rolled-up manner is procedural error, Hussain in his appeal stated: “This failure of the Indian judicial system underscores the point that, according to several judgements of the Court of Appeals in England and some judgements of the US Supreme Court, the indictment of an accused on 86 counts in a rolled-up manner is procedural error of great magnitude which vitiates the trial of a youngish illiterate or semi-literate 20-year-old offender.” Stating that the offender has a constitutional right to silence, he adds, “The second count which taints the investigations and the consequent indictment is that constitutional mandates allow right to silence, so police has no right to sustained interrogation of a suspect. Court of Appeal in England is categorical that illegality of collection of evidence, should, open the doors for exit of such evidence from the trial procedures.” Hussain questions the legality of the telephonic conversations as evidence, saying, “The fatal flaw in the verdict of Ajmal Kasab is that the trial of facts was swayed by the evidential value of telephonic messages, said to have been received by Kasab. According to the implications of the Case Law, without an express treaty between the countries, introduction of inter-country mobile telephonic communications as evidential material may be highly flawed.” The HC lawyer says Kasab's is a test case and “the introduction of such evidence may be against the essence of various conventions for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms, to which India is a party”. “The link between the various Human rights Conventions and national legislations should be a subject of inquiry and fresh rethinking by the Supreme Court of India and the International Commission of Jurists,” the Kashmiri lawyer in his appeal to the Apex Court adds. He hopes that the “Supreme Court of India is expected to issue Suo Motto Habeas Corpus Rule Nisi in such a high-profile politicised case, that compelled the Home Minister of India to issue his commendatory certificate to the trial procedures and the judgement, something unheard of in the past.” From nc-agricowi at netcologne.de Mon May 10 13:46:49 2010 From: nc-agricowi at netcologne.de (nmf2010) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 10:16:49 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] =?iso-8859-1?q?Program_-_week_20_-_NewMediaFest=272?= =?iso-8859-1?q?010?= Message-ID: <20100510101650.1BA51512.E9AF355F@192.168.0.2> NewMediaFest'2010 ___________________________________ program - week 20 - 10-16 May 2010 ___________________________________ 1. Feature of the Week 10-16 May 2010 http://2010.newmediafest.org/?p=796 Cinematheque - streaming media - a show case in 3 parts: --> Flash & Thunder - Flash as a tool and medium for artistic creations Part III is presenting 8 works by Alan Bigelow (USA), Chris Joseph (UK), Edmond Salsali (USA), Hermes Mangialardo (Italy), Matthew Randall (UK) 2. Feature of the Month MAY 2010 http://2010.newmediafest.org/?p=782 VideoChannel Cologne presents [self] ~imaging v.1.0 - artists portraying themselves in film & video, the 1st of 4 features including each 25 artists' videos to be released in May, June, July and August 2010. 3. Celebrate! - netart features 2010 10 Years - JavaMuseum - Forum for Internet Technology in Contemporary Art This week---> ui uuii (USA) http://2010.javamuseum.org/?p=581 4. The week is featuring physical screenings of CologneOFF V on Fonlad - Digital Art Festival 15-28 May Coimbra/PT - www.fonlad.net Details about the selected artists can be found on http://coff.newmediafest.org/blog/?p=483 CologneOFF V - the 5th Cologne Online Film Festival edition can be accessed directly via http://coff05.newmediafest.org -------------------------------------------------------- NewMediaFest'2010 10 Years [NewMediaArtProjectNetwork]:||cologne global heritage of digital culture 1 January - 31 December 2010 http://2010.newmediafest.org director and chief curator: Wilfried Agricola de Cologne 2010 [at] newmediafest.org ---------------------------------------------------- From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Mon May 10 13:49:23 2010 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 01:19:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] When IPL is nationalised Message-ID: <505041.68832.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Mail in circulation. Author not known. Delightful in parts.   (I dont see anything funny about Cheerleaders performing folk dances during breaks)   Kshmendra     22 things that will happen when the IPL is nationalised‏ 1.     The new Commissioner of the IPL, replacing Lalit Modi, will be an IAS officer, 1989 batch, transferred from the Food Corporation of India   2.     Mayawati will demand, however, that the new Chairman should be her own candidate,  Mr Dalit Modi.   3.     The name of Mumbai Indians will immediately be changed to Mumbai Manus. It will, naturally, field only  Maharashtrians (preferably Maharshtrian Brahmins). All other players will have their legs broken. Zaheer Khan will have his house burned down. So will Irfan Pathan, Yusuf Pathan and Mohd Kaif.   4.     The Chennai Super Kings team will renamed Dravida Cricket Kazhagam. Subsequently one faction will break away and the team will split into DCK (DMK) and AIADCK, owing allegience to Karunanidhi and Jayalalitha respectively   5.     Each political party will have its own team: BJP Bandits, Congress Cobras, CPI  Cadres, Samajwadi Strikers, CPM Challengers, Trinamul Tigers etc   6.     Auction of players will be replaced by teams calling for tenders for players. The lowest priced players will be picked.   7. Cheerleaders will be replaced by honourable ministers who will give speeches during breaks in the match   8.     Sonia Gandhi will insist that 30% of each team should be reserved for be women   9.     Mayawati will demand that SC/ST players will need to run for only 18 yards instead of 22 yards between the wickets   10.     Third Umpire requests will have to be filled in triplicate and duly notarized   11.  All Third Umpire decisions will be referred to a Joint Parlimentary Commission.   12.  IPL tickets will henceforth be available at all post offices and BSNL centers from 10 a.m. to 12.45 p.m. The facility to purchase tickets on your cell-phone will immediately be withdrawn   13.  Replacing an injured foreign player can be done only through a Tatkal application submitted 48 hours after a Govt doctor examines him   14.  Cheerleaders will be replaced by retired Air-India flight attendants.   15.  These new cheerleaders will perform the folk dances of the states they represent during breaks   16.  IPL matches will be shown only on Doordarshan. They will be telecast the day immediately following the match, from 4 a.m. to 7.30 a.m. and subsequently from 3.30 a.m. to 7p.m, subject to satellite link-up availability   17.  Between each  innings break Doordarshan will telecast the news in Hindi, followed by news for  the hearing impaired.   18.  Agricultural shots can be played only during the phase of the game termed "Krishi Darshan"   19.  There will be no matches on weekends or on national/regional holidays   20.  The three stumps will be painted saffron, white and green.   21.  Bowlers will have to bowl sarpatti and ghasssarkundi balls to the reserved players.   22.  Pakistan will immediately announce its intention to start its own version of the tournament called PPL and Mr Zardari will make a visit to Washington to meeet President Obama and seek an additional grant of $1 billion to fund it From pawan.durani at gmail.com Mon May 10 16:15:50 2010 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 16:15:50 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] PAKISTAN Air Force is running a torture cell Message-ID: http://www.ahrchk.net/statements/mainfile.php/2010statements/2535/ PAKISTAN: The Air Force is running a torture cell at its Air Headquarters where six members of a Christian family were tortured, a girl lost her legs FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE AHRC-STM-074-2010 May 10, 2010 A Statement by the Asian Human Rights Commission PAKISTAN: The Air Force is running a torture cell at its Air Headquarters where six members of a Christian family were tortured, a girl lost her legs The Asian Human Rights Commission (AHRC) has received a report of the torture of six persons from a Christian family by officials of the Pakistan Air Force. The arrest and torture continued for a period of 18 days and was due to the suspicion that they had stolen gold ornaments from the house of a Wing Commander in the Pakistan Air Force (PAF). A 14 year-old girl and her 16 year-old brother were tortured by the Wing Commander himself. As a result the girl is now disabled and neither she nor her brother is able to walk properly. A Session Court has helped obtain the victims’ release but has not initiated any judicial process against the officials of the PAF even after finding evidence that the family was tortured and being detained illegally in the PAF torture cell. According to the information received from several sources, including Miss Jamila Aslam, the lawyer of the victims, the Ephlal Ministry (a Christian NGO), and the family members of the victims, the 14 year-old Miss Sumera Masih was serving as a maid in the house of Mr. Faheem Cheema, a Wing Commander in the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) in Islamabad. Her job duties ranged from babysitting to cleaning, and she worked from 8 a.m. in the morning until 9 p.m. at night. Around 8:30 p.m. on the night of March 30, 2010, she was asked by the wife of the Wing Commander to take early leave as their family would go out for dinner; however, after 9.00 p.m. Sumera was asked to go to her employer’s house because some gold ornaments and other valuable items were missing. She was beaten and threatened by the wife of the Wing Commander that if she did not return the stolen items, she and her family would be handed over to the police. After 10.00 pm she was allowed to return to the servant quarters inside the PAF colony. In the meantime the Wing Commander reported the theft of the gold ornaments and the other valuable items to the Margala police station in Islamabad by telephone without naming any suspects. Later then, the Wing Commander allegedly directed the PAF police to detain Sumera and her family without informing the local police station. At 1.00 a.m. a van from the PAF police came; three persons exited and went into the servant quarters. They took Sumera and her father, Mr. Pervez Masih, to the PAF police station at the PAF Air Headquarters, sector E-9, Islamabad Chaklala, Shaheen Chowk. Two hours after the arrest at 3.00a.m., the PAF police returned to the house and took Perveen Bibi and Miss Sana, Sumera's mother and 20 year-old sister, into custody and drove away. 40 minutes after this, the same PAF police officials came and took her 16 year-old brother, Mr. Imran Masih, with them. On April 7 her paternal uncle Kala Masih was also arrested by the PAF police while he was searching for the family. The mother and her elder sisters were released after two days of being severely tortured in illegal detention with the warning, by Wing Commander himself, that if they informed anybody of these arrests they would not be released and would be punished heavily. According to her lawyer, the wing commander regularly visited the victims’ house to beat and torture the mother and sister to make them confess that they had stolen the ornaments. In the meantime, Parveen Bibi filed an application before the Islamabad Superintendent of Police (SP) with the help of her brother who was living in another city. The SP had tried to investigate the case and directed the Federal Investigation Unit (FIU) to probe the matter of the theft of the gold ornaments. The girl and her family members were interrogated by the FIU, but according to the lawyer, they were not tortured by the FIU. The SP also sent the case for legal process to a judicial magistrate in Islamabad, but he refused to take the case as PAF and armed forces were involved. The lawyers, Miss Jamila Aslam and Miss Shamona Javed, have filed a case based upon the illegal suspension of the writ of habeas corpus on April 13 before the District and Session court judge, Mr. Mazhar Hussain Barlas. He immediately fixed the date for regular hearing and called the public prosecutor the next day for comments. The day after this, the court ordered all the arrested persons be produced before the court. Sumera’s father, Pervez Masih, and his cousin, Kala Masih, were produced before the court, but Sumera and her brother Imran Masih were not produced. The judge ordered that her father and uncle be released immediately but also asked the PAF police to produce Sumera and her younger brother on April 17. On April 17 though, Sumera was not produced before the court. Station House Officer Mumtaz Sheikh told to the court that Sumera’s health prohibited her to come to the court. She was admitted to the PAF Hospital purportedly suffering from a viral infection. But the lawyer informed the court that Sumera had been severely tortured and could not walk, and furthermore that the PAF police were purposely avoiding producing her before the court. The court then ordered that she must be produced within two hours or a FIR would be lodged against the PAF police and the wing commander. In the afternoon Sumera was produced before the court; she was not able to walk and her father had to carry her in his arms. She was not even able to sit. She had been pressured and threatened by the PAF officials to say that she had a throat infection but the judge then asked why she was unable to walk if that was the case. After assurance from the judge and lawyers, the 14 year-old maid told the court that every day she was tortured by the wing commander and PAF police officials at a torture cell. Whenever PAF officials were conducting torture, they would blindfold her and beat her about the back and spinal cord. When Wing Commander Cheema entered the room, he saw that she was not blindfolded and threw a glass plate at her head; after which she fainted. She said she did not know for how many hours she was unconscious but woke up to find herself at the PAF hospital. The judge ordered proper medical treatment for her at the PAF’s expense, but they have yet to make any such payment or provide treatment. Furthermore, the PAF officials did not produce her younger brother Imran to the court, but on the strong reaction from the Session judge, PAF police released him the next day on April 18; but released him in such a way as to not make it seem as if he was in PAF custody. Imran Masih recorded in his testimony before the session court that the PAF police had hired him a taxi to bring him to Iqbal town in Islamabad; they had also planted a railway return ticket from Faisalabad, about 600 kilometers away, to make it seem as if he was coming from Faisalabad. When the taxi driver dropped him at Iqbal Town in Islamabad, the police were waiting for him; they arrested and produced him before the court. When the court asked of his whereabouts during past 18 days, he told the court that he was coming by railway. But the court was not satisfied by his answer as he was carried in by two police officers and could not walk properly. The court assured him to tell truth and that he was well protected. He then told the court that he was kept in a house at PAF Air Headquarters where officials of the PAF police and the Wing Commander Cheema tortured him to confess that his family and sister had stolen the gold ornaments from the house of the Wing Commander. He said that he was hung from a tree in the heat under the sun and was beaten severely at the back and legs. It was because of this that he was not able to walk. He said on the morning of April 18th that he was put in a taxi by PAF police officials with a return railway ticket from Faisalabad and was told that he should tell the court that he was in Faisalabad. He was told that if he said that he was at PAF Headquarters, his sister and other family members would not be released. The court then ordered for his release and asked the Margalla police to provide protection to the family because of this information. At this moment the court asked the lawyers and the victim's family whether to take legal action against the PAF police and the other officials for illegally detaining and torturing the family. The victims, after consulting with their lawyers, told the court that they are very poor and are Christians so they could not fight with such a powerful group as the armed forces. The court set aside the cases of habeas corpus as all the members of the family were recovered and did not take any action against the perpetrators. During the court proceedings, Dr. Nusrat Saleem of the PAF hospital said in her statement when the judge asked why Sumera was not brought on the court orders was because of injuries sustained during torture, She continued to say that Sumera is barely able to walk and might not be able to walk for the rest of her life. The victims are now hiding in another city because of continuous threats from Wing Commander Faheem Cheema and other officials of the Pakistan Air Force for revealing the torture cell at the PAF Air Headquarters. The running of torture cells at PAF Air Headquarters shows that armed forces are running their own parallel extrajudicial investigation systems. The Asian Human Rights Commission had already documented that the Pakistan army is running 52 torture cells all over the country, please see the following link: http://www.ahrchk.net/statements/mainfile.php/2008statements/1574/. This case of torture by the members of the Pakistan armed forces is ample proof that courts are still under the influence of the armed forces and are unable to implement the law equally. The Christian organisations assert that the worst kind of torture is reserved for them because of their religion and the fact that they are very poor. The Session court judge Mr. Barlas saved the lives of the family by taking prompt action to protect them from the PAF torture, but he should have taken action against the PAF and the Wing Commander, as it is his legal obligation, despite the fact that the victims did not want to pursue their own legal remedy. It is a matter of deep concern, as to the legal procedures adopted by the judiciary, that when it was proved beyond any doubt that the Wing Commander Faheem Cheema and the PAF police officials conducted torture causing the two children to suffer severe injuries the Judge avoided taking any legal action against them. It is observed that in cases involving the armed forces the judiciary, including the Supreme Court, avoids taking legal action against the armed forces. It is because of this that the armed forces have rendered themselves above the law. In the cases of disappearances the family members of the victims’ have provided all the evidence of involvement of state intelligence agencies, including the Supreme Court, but the courts have never asked the officials of the armed forces to testify before the court. The Judicial Magistrate of Islamabad has refused to take cases involving the armed forces even when the SP of Islamabad has forwarded him the application from the mother of Sumera for legal process. The rule of law then cannot be guaranteed when the judiciary itself refuses to take cases against the armed forces providing them with blanket impunity to torture and illegally detain people like Sumera and her family. The torture case of Sumera, her brother, and their parents in the PAF Air Headquarters shows the total collapse of rule of the law where many military and paramilitary organizations are running their illegal detention centers and conducting torture. The judiciary also claims that it is independent, but the armed forces are kept out of their domain as if the judiciary does not involve itself in the supra-constitutional affairs of the armed forces. The same situation is seen in the media. They do not cover the atrocities of the armed forces because media houses know their power. In the case of Sumera, the media, particularly the electronic media, blacked out the court proceedings. The Asian Human Rights Commission urges upon the President and Prime Minister to conduct an enquiry against the PAF officials for running torture cells in its air headquarters where the people are kept illegally and tortured. The government should also prosecute the Wing Commander Faheem Cheema and the PAF police officials for the illegal detention and the torture of the six members of a Christian family through which the whole family was in a state of trauma. In addition to this, a girl of 14 years has lost the use of her legs for life and a boy of 16 years is no longer able to walk properly. The government should also follow its own pledge, made before the UN Human Rights Council in 2008 before becoming its member, that it will make the law according to the UN Convention Against Torture (CAT). It is shameful then to think that the government cannot protect religious minorities from more powerful groups, particularly from the members of the armed forces. # # # About AHRC: The Asian Human Rights Commission is a regional non-governmental organisation monitoring and lobbying human rights issues in Asia. The Hong Kong-based group was founded in 1984. From aliens at dataone.in Mon May 10 16:53:09 2010 From: aliens at dataone.in (Bipin Trivedi) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 16:53:09 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Price of documenting Individual identity in India-100 rupees In-Reply-To: References: <000f01caef6c$7f17c0d0$7d474270$@in> <000c01caef93$1d829ad0$5887d070$@in> Message-ID: <000301caf033$2c3f8880$84be9980$@in> Dear Taha, Today the technology is so advanced, particularly online technology which makes the system so transparent and benefits us in many ways. Online technology has reduced the corruption in government dept. like Income Tax, Sales Tax, Excise, Land revenue and many more. So, same can be utilize for UID card and I think UID card will definitely benefits us in many ways as under. 1) Main advantage it enhance the security and help to reduce infiltration at the borders. This is very big advantage. 2) it will replace all other existing cards and work as all in one. 3) opening of new bank accounts so simple with just swapping of card. 4) All payments of gram panchayats, municipalities, state/central govt. can be made on submitting this card code and will credit directly to our bank account and this will reduce the corruption. Particularly in case of contractors and labors. 5) govt. refunds will be easy to get. 6) No one can buy or sell any property without UID card. Through it we can control the black money and confirm that how much property is belongs to this person. Govt. can provide subsidy to whom have not any flat or property and get extra tax who have already flat or property. There are so many other advantage which is not known to us and can be avail after practical implementation. Thanks Bipin -----Original Message----- From: Taha Mehmood [mailto:2tahamehmood at googlemail.com] Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 10:07 PM To: Bipin Trivedi Cc: sarai-list Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Price of documenting Individual identity in India-100 rupees Dear Bipin We seem to trudging on familiar grounds. First of all, let me state that I am a researcher and not an activist. My role is not to oppose or support an issue. It does not matter to me if UID fails or succeeds. Personally I am deeply interested in thinking about the idea of -identity-. UID happens to be about -identity- therefore my interest. The notion of -identity- happens to be one of the many research interests which I follow regularly. As a researcher my role is to re-search. So basically it a hugely self absorbing exercise to survey views on a particular topic. I have tried to do this publicly on my research blog. I invite you to please have a look at it. You may access it at http://tahaz.wordpress.com/ I would like to know what is it about UID that interests you? Warm regards Taha From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Mon May 10 17:35:22 2010 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 13:05:22 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Price of documenting Individual identity in India-100 rupees In-Reply-To: <000301caf033$2c3f8880$84be9980$@in> References: <000f01caef6c$7f17c0d0$7d474270$@in> <000c01caef93$1d829ad0$5887d070$@in> <000301caf033$2c3f8880$84be9980$@in> Message-ID: Dear Bipin, Thank you for your mail. I totally agree with your view that there many advantages of technology. I certainly believe that technology must be exploited the most to help the underprivileged people of our country. In this regard the use of UID as a technology must be given due consideration. Central to the imagination of UID is the notion of -identity-. I find this notion fuzzy. It is fuzzy because it is not clear. It is not clear because till now although a lot of people have tried to define identity, unfortunately no one has been able to come to a clear conclusion. A conclusion which would withstand any test of proof. A conclusion which could be applied universally. Can you please define what in your learned view an -identity- means? Or for that matter why do you think that the manner in which UIDAI is defining identity is foolproof? By asking people to give information on twelve counts is the UID not creating an imperfect archive of impressions? How can a resultant memory which is formed of an imperfect archive of impressions be correct? Would not lead the State to display signs of forgetfulness? Then what about the view of many other people who view that identity of an individual accounts for much more and then there are many people still more who view that identity of a human being is always in a state of flux. If by propagating this whole UID exercise the functionaries Government of India wants us to believe that after the allotment of a number X, A-for all times to come would be-A, then please tell me whether such a logic is correct? Do people not change over time? If they do then how come they can be represented by the same number? Were you the same Bipin who was just a day old, to a young boy who was six years old to an adult? Did you not go through a change in your self identity? Do you think a number is correct signification of who you are? Warm regards Taha From yasir.media at gmail.com Mon May 10 18:11:29 2010 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?eWFzaXIgftmK2Kcg2LPYsQ==?=) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 17:41:29 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Public Enemy vs Arizona: Sonic Immigration In-Reply-To: References: <24521732.1273327952042.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <88375B1D-F627-4BD2-AC02-9036A3B0581C@earthlink.net> Message-ID: I know he'll love it http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/005627.html On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 3:46 AM, Paul D. Miller wrote: > Yassir - yeah, I think I understand this better. > > I'd suggest that you check out local conditions Josh is responding to in > Arizona like Sheriff Joe Arpaio who makes inmates in the Maricopa County > jails wear pink underwear and who is one of the weirdest law enforcement > officials in the US. You couldn't make up a stranger Republican. Josh is > just the tip of the iceberg. > > Send him some pink underwear.., > > Paul > > Sent from my iPhone > > On May 10, 2010, at 12:20 AM, yasir ~يا سر wrote: > > >> http://www.crimefilenews.com/2009/12/phoenix-az-accused-in-abduction-and.html >> >> >> >> On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 12:17 AM, Joshua Zeidner > >wrote: >> >> >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFyJJAarXHc&feature=player_embedded >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, May 9, 2010 at 11:39 AM, yasir ~يا سر >> >wrote: >>> >>> >>>> >>>> http://artmedication.wordpress.com/2009/12/08/ray-lichtenstein-drowning-girl/ >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Mon May 10 18:46:52 2010 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 06:16:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Price of documenting Individual identity in India-100 rupees In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <486464.59285.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Taha   It has been fascinating to see the work you have been doing on the UID. I make it a point to read every post of yours (direct, connected or reflective) on this issue. Been educative.   Aspects you have brought out time and again:   1. FINANCIALS of UID     I am not commenting on that.   2. CREDIBILITY of exercise that would establish the UID and the ABUSE in doing so and thereafter.     I am not commenting on that.   3. UID intruding into PRIVACY     I am not commenting on that   4. UID and the philosophicals of IDENTITY        Is it possible to set aside for a moment the idea of IDENTITY in the nebulousness of it's totality?       If that can be done then can we think of some aspects which form some sort of (allow me to call it) IDENTITY of SOCIAL CONTRACTS or SOCIETAL IDENTITY or OPERATIONAL IDENTITY?       This certainly could not be considered to be the totality of the nebulousness of IDENTITY. This narrow and limited recognition of Identity could be said to be represented in the UID. It lends itself to being digitised because the information it contains is Names, Locations, Descriptions, Numbers, the "0" and "1" of a 'Yes' or a 'No'.       It is the 'Operational Identity' the 'Societal Identity' and the 'Identity of Social Contracts'.      This narrow and limited recognition of Identity also is not frozen in time. Any or all of its components could change with time and such changes be incorporated in the digitised UID.   What I am attempting to do is to segregate some aspects of Identity from the "Totality of Identity" by putting them in the proper perspective where they do not presume to be the Totality of the Nebulousness of Identity.   Neither is this narrow and limited recognition of Identity (UID) frozen in itself nor can it force-freeze the Totality of Identity.   Excuse the ramblingness of my thoughts. If they are silly and uninformed please ignore them.   You know the limitedness of my intellectual capabilities so I might not be able to meaningfully engage with any feedback from you but I would love to be corrected/guided in my thinking.   Take care   Kshmendra      --- On Mon, 5/10/10, Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> wrote: From: Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Price of documenting Individual identity in India-100 rupees To: "Bipin Trivedi" Cc: "Sarai Reader-list" Date: Monday, May 10, 2010, 5:35 PM Dear Bipin, Thank you for your mail. I totally agree with your view that there many advantages of technology. I certainly believe that technology must be exploited the most to help the underprivileged people of our country. In this regard the use of UID as a technology must be given due consideration. Central to the imagination of UID is the notion of -identity-. I find this notion fuzzy. It is fuzzy because it is not clear. It is not clear because till now although a lot of people have tried to define identity, unfortunately no one has been able to come to a clear conclusion. A conclusion which would withstand any test of proof. A conclusion which could be applied universally. Can you please define what in your learned view an -identity- means? Or for that matter why do you think that the manner in which UIDAI is defining identity is foolproof? By asking people to give information on twelve counts is the UID not creating an imperfect archive of impressions? How can a resultant memory which is formed of an imperfect archive of impressions be correct? Would not lead the State to display signs of forgetfulness? Then what about the view of many other people who view that identity of an individual accounts for much more and then there are many people still more who view that identity of a human being is always in a state of flux. If by propagating this whole UID exercise the functionaries Government of India wants us to believe that after the allotment of a number X, A-for all times to come would be-A, then please tell me whether such a logic is correct? Do people not change over time? If they do then how come they can be represented by the same number? Were you the same Bipin who was just a day old, to a young boy who was six years old to an adult? Did you not go through a change in your self identity? Do you think a number is correct signification of who you are? Warm regards Taha _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pheeta.ram at gmail.com Mon May 10 19:06:38 2010 From: pheeta.ram at gmail.com (Pheeta Ram) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 19:06:38 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] When IPL is nationalised In-Reply-To: <505041.68832.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <505041.68832.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Point number 2 and 9 are particularly worth noting. Despite being tongue-in-cheek they tell us a lot about the author. On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 1:49 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Mail in circulation. Author not known. Delightful in parts. > > (I dont see anything funny about Cheerleaders performing folk dances during > breaks) > > Kshmendra > > > 22 things that will happen when the IPL is nationalised‏ > > 1. The new Commissioner of the IPL, replacing Lalit Modi, will be an > IAS officer, 1989 batch, transferred from the Food Corporation of India > > 2. Mayawati will demand, however, that the new Chairman should be her > own candidate, Mr Dalit Modi. > > 3. The name of Mumbai Indians will immediately be changed to Mumbai > Manus. It will, naturally, field only Maharashtrians (preferably > Maharshtrian Brahmins). All other players will have their legs broken. > Zaheer Khan will have his house burned down. So will Irfan Pathan, Yusuf > Pathan and Mohd Kaif. > > 4. The Chennai Super Kings team will renamed Dravida Cricket Kazhagam. > Subsequently one faction will break away and the team will split into DCK > (DMK) and AIADCK, owing allegience to Karunanidhi and Jayalalitha > respectively > > 5. Each political party will have its own team: BJP Bandits, Congress > Cobras, CPI Cadres, Samajwadi Strikers, CPM Challengers, Trinamul Tigers > etc > > 6. Auction of players will be replaced by teams calling for tenders for > players. The lowest priced players will be picked. > > 7. Cheerleaders will be replaced by honourable ministers who will give > speeches during breaks in the match > > 8. Sonia Gandhi will insist that 30% of each team should be reserved > for be women > > 9. Mayawati will demand that SC/ST players will need to run for only 18 > yards instead of 22 yards between the wickets > > 10. Third Umpire requests will have to be filled in triplicate and duly > notarized > > 11. All Third Umpire decisions will be referred to a Joint Parlimentary > Commission. > > 12. IPL tickets will henceforth be available at all post offices and BSNL > centers from 10 a.m. to 12.45 p.m. The facility to purchase tickets on your > cell-phone will immediately be withdrawn > > 13. Replacing an injured foreign player can be done only through a Tatkal > application submitted 48 hours after a Govt doctor examines him > > 14. Cheerleaders will be replaced by retired Air-India flight attendants. > > 15. These new cheerleaders will perform the folk dances of the states they > represent during breaks > > 16. IPL matches will be shown only on Doordarshan. They will be telecast > the day immediately following the match, from 4 a.m. to 7.30 a.m. and > subsequently from 3.30 a.m. to 7p.m, subject to satellite link-up > availability > > 17. Between each innings break Doordarshan will telecast the news in > Hindi, followed by news for the hearing impaired. > > 18. Agricultural shots can be played only during the phase of the game > termed "Krishi Darshan" > > 19. There will be no matches on weekends or on national/regional holidays > > 20. The three stumps will be painted saffron, white and green. > > 21. Bowlers will have to bowl sarpatti and ghasssarkundi balls to the > reserved players. > > 22. Pakistan will immediately announce its intention to start its own > version of the tournament called PPL and Mr Zardari will make a visit to > Washington to meeet President Obama and seek an additional grant of $1 > billion to fund it > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From taraprakash at gmail.com Mon May 10 20:38:42 2010 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 11:08:42 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Public Enemy vs Arizona: Sonic Immigration References: <24521732.1273327952042.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Tha'ts the perfect tea party type, abusing people left, right and center for daring to differ. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joshua Zeidner" To: "yasir ~يا سر" Cc: "Sarai Reader-list" Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 10:47 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Public Enemy vs Arizona: Sonic Immigration > Hi Yasir! > > Still making excuses for Islamic terrorism? > > -jmz > > > On Sun, May 9, 2010 at 4:00 AM, yasir ~يا سر > wrote: > >> You've diagnosed this one properly. Josh goes back to the thingist list >> around 2001-4. i see he's still spouting and needessly small-mindedly >> arguing. its best to just ignore him and not engage. >> >> best >> yasir >> >> >> On Sat, May 8, 2010 at 7:12 PM, Paul D. Miller > >wrote: >> >> > Hello to Josh and the Sarai list. I apologize about the delay in >> > communication, but I had a concert in Khartoum, Sudan, and there were >> > thousands of people at the show, and it was a demonstration of some of >> the >> > unique qualities of why reaching out past the norms of the kind of >> paranoid >> > scenarios Josh has been spouting on the list is exactly what I think >> > the >> > world needs more of. >> > >> > To those on the list that haven't heard the track I did with Public >> Enemy, >> > you can hear it here: >> > >> > http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html >> > >> > And yo Josh - screw your crappy music taste... >> > >> > Josh - why do you think that the Phoenix Suns has changed their name to >> > "Los Suns": >> > Team owner Robert Sarver says the Spanish jersey is meant to, quote, >> "honor >> > our Latino community and the diversity of our league, the state of >> Arizona >> > and our nation." >> > >> > The Arizona reactionary stance towards immigration is what I think is a >> > betrayal of the country, and I believe that naive people like the right >> wing >> > types who espouse it have no idea about the economics of what they're >> > talking about. The trouble is that as a larger political ideology, its >> > hateful and divisive message is encouraging ever more misguided >> > madness. >> > >> > Some examples: >> > >> > Read more: >> > >> http://newsbusters.org/blogs/scott-whitlock/2010/05/05/msnbcs-dylan-ratigan-gives-kudos-arizona-basketball-team-protesting-#ixzz0nLQzAkyL >> > >> > The problem is this: you can't argue with right wing lunatics like >> > Josh - >> > facts don't matter. We learned this during the Bush era, and we've seen >> the >> > Tea Party idiots doing the same thing. I belong in what I like to call, >> > ironically, after Bush, "the reality based community." Interdependence >> > in >> a >> > hyper globalized economy is a basic economic fact. You cannot shut it >> down >> > without massive consequences, and amusingly enough, I bet you'd be hard >> > pressed to find even a right wing economist who would disagree with >> > that >> > basic assumption. Because I cannot argue with Josh (even politely), >> without >> > being called as he has called me a "racist (!!!???)" and a "betrayer of >> my >> > country" (sound like Fox News stupidity!?), I can only say - in this >> forum >> > focused on South Asia, that the kind of anti-immigrant stupidity that >> > he >> > espouses is so dumb as to be beyond the range of coherent dialog. >> > >> > I cannot believe that reactionary people like Josh have no sense of >> > history, or even a willingness to get to facts, but hey, in the America >> of >> > Fox News and idiots like Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh, I'd encounter a >> moron >> > like Josh on the Sarai reader list (one could argue that he's a digital >> > immigrant on this list, but the irony is too much...) ... nothing is >> > shocking I guess. >> > >> > I have to admit - I am so disgusted by my fellow Arizona American's >> > reactionary and ultimately idiotic legislation about immigration. It >> boggles >> > the mind - where do you think they came from? They are all immigrants. >> > Anyway, not that these kinds of links matter to Josh, but hey... I'm >> > just >> an >> > African American racist who betrays my country and despises Rush >> Limbaugh, >> > Glenn Beck, Fox News Zombies, and right wing idiots like Sarah Palin. >> > >> > The Left needs to push back on this kind of stuff. HARD. And, >> > hopefully, >> it >> > will. >> > >> > >> > Supporting links: >> > >> > >> http://www.truthout.org/david-sirota-i-want-my-country-back-the-motto-mad-men59256 >> > >> > Why the Left has no Response to the Right Wing Lie Machine: >> > http://www.crisispapers.org/essays10p/nolocontendere.htm >> > >> > Why Arizona isn't Crazy, Just wrong: >> > >> > >> http://www.alternet.org/immigration/146736/why_arizona_isn't_crazy,_just_wrong >> > >> > Arizona Immigration Law Divides Law Enforcement: >> > http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/22/us/22immig.html >> > >> > This is my last comment on this thread. >> > Paul >> > >> > >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > >From: Joshua Zeidner >> > >Sent: May 6, 2010 2:07 AM >> > >To: reader-list at sarai.net >> > >Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Public Enemy vs Arizona: Sonic Immigration >> > > >> > > Well, I just got back from the Phoenix rally. If any of you think >> that >> > >the SB1070 bill is about racial profiling, you are out of your mind. >> The >> > >bulk of the crowd was a semi-violent mob with Mexican and _USSR_ flags >> (no >> > >joke). They were proudly displaying their concept of history, which >> > >is >> > that >> > >of right to ownership of the American southwest. Many of them were >> > clearly >> > >mafia thugs. >> > > >> > > -jmz >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 9:48 AM, TaraPrakash >> > wrote: >> > > >> > >> "I was at the capitol yesterday, there was a nice young African >> American >> > >> girl who was vocally against the pro-Mexico demonstrators. She came >> > down >> > >> here because she couldn't find a job in LA." >> > >> >> > >> Now, isn't there some kind of irony? Mexicans don't take so much >> > >> risk >> of >> > >> crossing the border because of plenty of jobs on their side of the >> > border. >> > >> Jobwise the state that seems to be doing the best is Texas, now can >> > someone >> > >> remind the history of Texas? Is it somehow connected with Mexico? >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joshua Zeidner" < >> > jjzeidner at gmail.com> >> > >> To: >> > >> Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2010 11:38 AM >> > >> Subject: [Reader-list] Public Enemy vs Arizona: Sonic Immigration >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> On the contrary, the African Americans are getting played by left >> > wing >> > >>> and the likes of Al Sharpton this time. >> > >>> >> > >>> I was at the capitol yesterday, there was a nice young African >> > American >> > >>> girl who was vocally against the pro-Mexico demonstrators. She >> > >>> came >> > down >> > >>> here because she couldn't find a job in LA. She shouted: "this is >> the >> > new >> > >>> color of conservatism". >> > >>> >> > >>> We've never had slavery in Arizona. It was formed after the civil >> > war. >> > >>> The African Americans played a critical role in the establishment >> > >>> of >> > our >> > >>> state. >> > >>> >> > >>> -jmz >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 11:44 PM, Paul D. Miller < >> anansi1 at earthlink.net >> > >>> >wrote: >> > >>> >> > >>> I'm transferring at Frankfurt airport, and took a quick glance at >> this >> > >>>> video. I find it sad and appalling. >> > >>>> >> > >>>> It's galvinized me as an African American to build even more >> > >>>> bridges >> > >>>> between communities. >> > >>>> >> > >>>> Minorities only get played against one another when this kind of >> thing >> > >>>> happens, and the end result is everyone loses. >> > >>>> >> > >>>> This kind of stuff is so dumb, it's ridiculous. >> > >>>> >> > >>>> It really saddens me to see fellow African Americans being played >> > >>>> by >> > >>>> right >> > >>>> wing types. >> > >>>> >> > >>>> Paul >> > >>>> >> > >>>> Sent from my iPhone >> > >>>> >> > >>>> On May 5, 2010, at 7:02 AM, Udai Malhotra >> > >>>> wrote: >> > >>>> >> > >>>> Dear Joshua, >> > >>>> >> > >>>> What is the point you are trying to make by linking to this video? >> If >> > >>>> anything it is reinforcing that you are on some straight ignorant >> > shit. >> > >>>> >> > >>>> - Udai >> > >>>> >> > >>>> On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 9:55 AM, Joshua Zeidner < < >> jjzeidner at gmail.com >> > > >> > >>>> jjzeidner at gmail.com> wrote: >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcmjPgyN36g&NR=1 >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> -jmz >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 1:28 PM, Paul D. Miller < < >> > anansi1 at earthlink.net >> > >>>>> > >> > >>>>> anansi1 at earthlink.net>wrote: >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> > Again - this is strange non sense. >> > >>>>> > 1) the track is a free giveaway so no paycheck etc >> > >>>>> > >> > >>>>> > Josh - this is stupid. Either up the level of the discourse or >> come >> > up >> > >>>>> with >> > >>>>> > something more interesting. >> > >>>>> > >> > >>>>> > I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone that would say >> either >> > me >> > >>>>> or >> > >>>>> > Chuck D are racist, and no, Flava Flav isn't on the track. >> > >>>>> > So... >> > >>>>> > >> > >>>>> > What's your point? I'm just getting on a flight to Khartoum, >> Sudan >> > for >> > >>>>> > a >> > >>>>> > project with ex child soldiers doing electronic music. >> > >>>>> > >> > >>>>> > Josh - if you would like to dialog about the merits of >> > >>>>> > Arizona's >> > >>>>> > immigration, that's ok. But being an asshole, as we've seen in >> > >>>>> > > >> > >>>>> Arizona, >> > >>>>> > doesn't solve anyone's problems. >> > >>>>> > >> > >>>>> > By the way way, no, I'm not racist, and no, Public Enemy isn't >> > racist. >> > >>>>> > >> > >>>>> > And I have nothing to do with Al Sharpton. >> > >>>>> > >> > >>>>> > Paul >> > >>>>> > >> > >>>>> > Sent from my iPhone >> > >>>>> > >> > >>>>> > On May 4, 2010, at 4:02 PM, Joshua Zeidner < < >> jjzeidner at gmail.com> >> > >>>>> jjzeidner at gmail.com> wrote: >> > >>>>> > >> > >>>>> > >> > >>>>> > sorry for getting all up in your grill hommie, but racism >> > >>>>> > cuts >> > both >> > >>>>> ways. >> > >>>>> > >> > >>>>> > maybe you can get Flavor Flav all up in hizouse too? >> > >>>>> > < >> > >>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzhpB1X-6ok> >> > >>>>> > >> > >>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzhpB1X-6ok >> > >>>>> > >> > >>>>> > it's pretty simple that illegal aliens are modern day slavery >> and >> > > >> > >>>>> they >> > >>>>> > destroy the lives of white and black Americans alike. >> > Unfortunately >> > >>>>> we've >> > >>>>> > got selllouts like you who are willing to say anything for a >> > paycheck. >> > >>>>> > >> > >>>>> > check ya later holmes, jmz >> > >>>>> > >> > >>>>> > >> > >>>>> > >> > >>>>> > >> > >>>>> > On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 12:48 PM, Paul D. Miller < > << >> > >>>>> anansi1 at earthlink.net> >> > >>>>> anansi1 at earthlink.net> >> > >>>>> > anansi1 at earthlink.net> wrote: >> > >>>>> > >> > >>>>> >> Very strange and reactionary response. >> > >>>>> >> >> > >>>>> >> Joshua - can you please enlighten me on my 'racist politics' >> > >>>>> >> and >> > my >> > >>>>> >> relationship to Al Sharpton? >> > >>>>> >> >> > >>>>> >> You're sounding a bit shrill and to be completely honest, >> totally >> > >>>>> >> irrational. >> > >>>>> >> >> > >>>>> >> Paul >> > >>>>> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> > >>>>> >> Sent from my iPhone >> > >>>>> >> >> > >>>>> >> On May 4, 2010, at 3:22 PM, Joshua Zeidner < < < >> > jjzeidner at gmail.com> >> > >>>>> jjzeidner at gmail.com> >> > >>>>> >> jjzeidner at gmail.com> wrote: >> > >>>>> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> > >>>>> >> I'm writing this from the Arizona Capitol. >> > >>>>> >> >> > >>>>> >> Paul, we don't want your racist politics here. Al Sharpton >> has >> > >>>>> nothing >> > >>>>> >> in common with the illegal aliens. You are not only a traitor >> to >> > >> >> > >>>>> your >> > >>>>> >> country but a traitor to your own people. How can you turn >> > against a >> > >>>>> >> country that has given you so much? >> > >>>>> >> >> > >>>>> >> we do remember history. We remember it very well. >> > >>>>> >> >> > >>>>> >> Check it: >> << >> > >>>>> http://www.buffalosoldiermuseum.com/?linkid=410&webid=1000> >> > >>>>> http://www.buffalosoldiermuseum.com/?linkid=410&webid=1000><< >> > >>>>> http://www.buffalosoldiermuseum.com/?linkid=410&webid=1000> >> > >>>>> http://www.buffalosoldiermuseum.com/?linkid=410&webid=1000> >> > >>>>> >> >> > >>>>> http://www.buffalosoldiermuseum.com/?linkid=410&webid=1000 >> > >>>>> >> >> > >>>>> >> -jmz >> > >>>>> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> > >>>>> >> On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 12:10 PM, Paul D. Miller < >> << >> > >>>>> anansi1 at earthlink.net> >> > >>>>> anansi1 at earthlink.net>< >> anansi1 at earthlink.net >> > > >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> anansi1 at earthlink.net> wrote: >> > >>>>> >> >> > >>>>> >>> Hey people - I just finished a studio session with Chuck D >> > >>>>> >>> from >> > >>> >> > >>>>> Public >> > >>>>> >>> Enemy. In the wake of Republican Governor Jan Brewer's >> appalling >> > >>>>> >>> anti-immigrant law, me and Chuck D were rappin' and we >> > >>>>> >>> decided >> to >> > >>>>> >>> put >> > >>>>> >>> together an update of his classic track "By The Time I get To >> > >>>>> Arizona." >> > >>>>> >>> >> > >>>>> >>> You can download the track from here: >> > >>>>> >>> >> > >>>>> >>> < >> > >>>>> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html><< >> > >>>>> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html> >> > >>>>> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html> >> > >>>>> >>> >> > >>>>> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html >> > >>>>> >>> >> > >>>>> >>> >> > >>>>> >>> Anyone who knows about hip hop from the early 90's remembers >> John >> > >>>>> >>> McCain's unwillingness to endorse creating a local version of >> > Martin >> > >>>>> Luther >> > >>>>> >>> King's birthday. The update here is a 21st century look in >> > >>>>> >>> the >> > rear >> > >>>>> view >> > >>>>> >>> mirror. The cliché that "those who don't learn from the past >> are >> > >>>>> doomed to >> > >>>>> >>> repeat it" still holds sway in our hyper amnesiac culture. I >> > remixed >> > >>>>> D.W. >> > >>>>> >>> Griffith's infamous film Birth of a Nation with a bit of >> Public >> > >>> >> > >>>>> Enemy >> > >>>>> in >> > >>>>> >>> mind, and later on, they named an e.p. with the same name as >> > >>>>> >>> my >> > >>>>> project. Me >> > >>>>> >>> and Chuck D have done several projects in the past around >>> >> > >>>>> progressive, >> > >>>>> non >> > >>>>> >>> knucklehead hip hop. >> > >>>>> >>> >> > >>>>> >>> Please feel free to download this track and pass it around. >> > >>>>> >>> We >> > are >> > >>>>> >>> the >> > >>>>> >>> media. Feel free to pass it around! >> > >>>>> >>> >> > >>>>> >>> By the way, this is a mashup, and it's basically not really >> > >>>>> >>> for >> > >>> >> > >>>>> sale. >> > >>>>> I >> > >>>>> >>> just took a riff from Philly Sound >>> (<< >> > >>>>> http://www.funkadelphiarecords.com> >> > >>>>> http://www.funkadelphiarecords.com>< < >> > >>>>> http://www.funkadelphiarecords.com> >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> http://www.funkadelphiarecords.com> >> > >>>>> >>> >> www.funkadelphiarecords.com >> > ), >> > >>>>> >>> and >> > >>>>> flipped it. The result, is what you >> > >>>>> >>> hear here. It's free, and open. No $!! >> > >>>>> >>> You can download a better resolution version of the track >> > >>>>> >>> here: >> > >>>>> >>> >> > >>>>> >>> < >> > >>>>> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html><< >> > >>>>> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html> >> > >>>>> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html> >> > >>>>> >>> >> > >>>>> http://www.djspooky.com/music_download_form.html >> > >>>>> >>> >> > >>>>> >>> Check it! >> > >>>>> >>> >> > >>>>> >>> Paul >> > >>>>> >>> >> > >>>>> >>> >> > >>>>> >>> >> > >>>>> >>> >> > >>>>> >>> >> > >>>>> >>> >> > >>>>> >>> >> > >>>>> >>> >> > >>>>> >>> >> > >>>>> >>> >> > >>>>> >>> >> > >>>>> > >> > >>>>> > >> > >>>>> > -- >> > >>>>> > >> > >>>>> > >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> -- >> > >>>>> _________________________________________ >> > >>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > >>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >> > >>>>> To subscribe: send an email to >> > >>>>> reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject >> header. >> > >>>>> To unsubscribe: < >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > > >> > >>>>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > >>>>> List archive: < >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>> >> > >>> -- >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> -- >> > >>> _________________________________________ >> > >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > >>> Critiques & Collaborations >> > >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > >>> subscribe in the subject header. >> > >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > >>> >> > >> >> > >> >> > > >> > > >> > >-- >> > >_________________________________________ >> > >reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > >Critiques & Collaborations >> > >To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > >To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > >List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > > > -- > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Mon May 10 22:16:41 2010 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 17:46:41 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Price of documenting Individual identity in India-100 rupees In-Reply-To: <486464.59285.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <486464.59285.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Kshmendra, Isn't it that we can correct someone when we know what correct is. The problem is I don't either. But it is nice to ramble at a Sarai anytime. Thank you for bringing up more ideas to my basket of concepts around the notion of -identity-. But before I write anything on your views on identity, please allow me to ramble along with you. I would like to tell you about a nightmare I had a few days back. So in my dream gone sour, I am sitting on a chair and looking at a book titled –Identity-. Suddenly the title appears to become fuzzy. I don't know why but the more clearly I tried to look at more it became fuzzy. I had imagined the idea of -identity- would become clearer if I look at it with a lot of focus. But here it was just not the case. There was no definition. There was no definitive theory. There were no definitive scholars. It seems like a fleeting idea. An eternally ephemeral idea. An idea which is shifting through sands of time. And against this fuzziness of the title I see an image of Mr. Nilekani smiling and I felt utterly disgusted at myself for not understanding this apparently simple concept. I have to give it to Mr. Nilekani, he makes –identity- seem so simple. I feel like fool whenever I see him wearing that smile on his face. Especially, that particular one, you know the one with a deliberate slow movement of the cheeks which is often strangely accompanied by a steely determined look. That night Mr.Nilekani’s smile appear more like a smirk to me. Or maybe not. Then somehow I started to dream about a fisherman. Strangely he looked like Mr. Nilekani. Same face. Same moustache. Same steely look. Same height. Except that he was a fisherman. He was definitely not Mr. Nilekani. I am sure about that. This fisherman had a serious face. He was focussed. He knew what he had to do. He had to catch fishes. That was his job. More fishes meant a meaningful day. So anyways. This fisherman was standing on a boat. That boat was anchored in the middle of a small pond. The fisherman casts his net wide. It’s a really wide net. I cannot forget that net. The scale of that net was something that I had never seen. Then I saw fishes just flying out of the water as they try to flee. Some fishes were dead, you know, others just did not bother. The fisherman was now wearing a glee. Actually I am not sure whether it was a smirk or was it more like a leer of a cynical, cold, calculating handler. It was at this point that I woke up. I clearly remember this was a few days back. But I still do not know why the title of that book called –identity- started to waver and become fuzzy when I was trying so hard to look at it. I am sure you must have read my last post http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2010-May/025072.html You see in that post, I have tried to think about approximately the same notions which you bring up, that is, IDENTITY of SOCIAL CONTRACTS or SOCIETAL IDENTITY or whatever it is supposed to mean. You see you are not alone in being fuzzy about thinking on identity. However I would like to know your views on it. Do you think that the act of UID to force other Indians by seduction, threats or diktats to give information regarding an aspect of their selves i.e. their personal identity, could be thought of as akin to a slave trader capturing human beings and using them as objects, as tools and as instruments? Do you think we can access our identities when it goes to those databases? Would they inform us before they will put data gathered from clustering our identities to determine untested policies? Would they let us know how and when and who will access the information regarding our identities? Warm regards Taha From aliens at dataone.in Mon May 10 22:51:13 2010 From: aliens at dataone.in (Bipin Trivedi) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 22:51:13 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] UID CARD BENEFIT In-Reply-To: References: <000f01caef6c$7f17c0d0$7d474270$@in> <000c01caef93$1d829ad0$5887d070$@in> <000301caf033$2c3f8880$84be9980$@in> Message-ID: <000f01caf065$361fd760$a25f8620$@in> Dear Taha, Thanks for your mail and glad to know that you welcome technology updated society. If we think for pros and cons in deep before adopting some innovative ideas and think for prolong in the matter for negative aspects then we cannot discover new things. Renowned scientists would have thought about the negative effect of their inventions then no new invention would have been possible. When we are in need of job and at last we get some job may be not of our stature and knowledge and we think about its negativity then we have to remain jobless. To do something is always better than nothing. Can I ask one question, what's your identity? You are human being and citizen of India that's your identity. Can you deny it? When you go to another country, you have to keep your identity in the form of passport with so many details in it that you are citizen of India. So, relating to world, you have to keep your Indian citizen identity. Same thing, in this new high-tech technology age, when population is growing rapidly and our own security are under threat then you have to keep some identity for safety measures. For example, election photo card issued to almost 85/90% of voter successfully which is necessary for fair election purpose. Do you deny this identity also? When large database are created no doubt error will be there, since data entry will be made by human only. But, if you count that percentage is very low comparatively and can be corrected easily when noticed. For few errors one cannot stop something innovative things which will be very beneficial in the future. You are talking about twelve counts, but nowadays new census going on where you have to give details of much more then even twelve counts so nothing wrong about it. Someone feel that what about our privacy, but do you think that in this technological age, can you keep intact your privacy? No not at all. If someone wants to know about yourself can fetch the details by any means with the help of technology. Cards like driving license, passport has to be up-dated over period of time. We have to renew both this in regular interval as specified and same can be applicable for UID also. When UID card is prepared for first time, there will be date of birth mentioned with input date and formula can be put up so whenever it will be swiped will display your current age only whenever required. Technology can do anything so nothing to worry about it. Thanks Bipin -----Original Message----- From: Taha Mehmood [mailto:2tahamehmood at googlemail.com] Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 5:35 PM To: Bipin Trivedi Cc: Sarai Reader-list Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Price of documenting Individual identity in India-100 rupees Dear Bipin, Thank you for your mail. I totally agree with your view that there many advantages of technology. I certainly believe that technology must be exploited the most to help the underprivileged people of our country. In this regard the use of UID as a technology must be given due consideration. Central to the imagination of UID is the notion of -identity-. I find this notion fuzzy. It is fuzzy because it is not clear. It is not clear because till now although a lot of people have tried to define identity, unfortunately no one has been able to come to a clear conclusion. A conclusion which would withstand any test of proof. A conclusion which could be applied universally. Can you please define what in your learned view an -identity- means? Or for that matter why do you think that the manner in which UIDAI is defining identity is foolproof? By asking people to give information on twelve counts is the UID not creating an imperfect archive of impressions? How can a resultant memory which is formed of an imperfect archive of impressions be correct? Would not lead the State to display signs of forgetfulness? Then what about the view of many other people who view that identity of an individual accounts for much more and then there are many people still more who view that identity of a human being is always in a state of flux. If by propagating this whole UID exercise the functionaries Government of India wants us to believe that after the allotment of a number X, A-for all times to come would be-A, then please tell me whether such a logic is correct? Do people not change over time? If they do then how come they can be represented by the same number? Were you the same Bipin who was just a day old, to a young boy who was six years old to an adult? Did you not go through a change in your self identity? Do you think a number is correct signification of who you are? Warm regards Taha From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Mon May 10 23:49:34 2010 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 19:19:34 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] UID CARD BENEFIT In-Reply-To: <000f01caf065$361fd760$a25f8620$@in> References: <000f01caef6c$7f17c0d0$7d474270$@in> <000c01caef93$1d829ad0$5887d070$@in> <000301caf033$2c3f8880$84be9980$@in> <000f01caf065$361fd760$a25f8620$@in> Message-ID: Dear Bipin, Thank you for your mail. I am amazed at the conviction of your thoughts. May I just say, I feel very jealous of you!! Unfortunately this conviction eludes me. Let me tell you why. Lets look at the idea of a second. Now they say, a second is a unit to measure time. Similarly a meter is a unit to measure distance. A gram is a unit to measure weight. These entities appear clear because they can be measured. The different units of these entities are universally applicable and universally acceptable. Now I would like to know from you is this- what is a precise unit of measurement of -an identity of a person-. I understand you appear to be a big fan of the advantages of UID. I think you are probably right. I think advantages will come after the census is done. A census will be done after an aggregate measure of individual identities is gathered. The an aggregate measure of individual identities will be gathered after the data is be entered. The data will be entered after the data is verified. The data will be verified after it is individually collected. The data will be individually collected after the forms are filled correctly. The forms will be entered correctly after they are printed correctly. The will be printed correctly after the categories are formulated correctly. The categories will be formulated correctly if they are thought through correctly. So please tell me in your view does Mr. Nandan Nilekani and his team have correctly formulated a vision to measure individual identity? If so, then how? IF not then why is this gross mis-measure of man is going on? Why this stupid exercise is being allowed by well meaning people like you? You know Bipin, please do not get me wrong here, because I really want these advantages to go to the underprivileged of India but I am not sure whether people have done fundamental research in really thinking hard about the idea of identity. Identity appears fuzzy to me. Warm regards Taha From yasir.media at gmail.com Mon May 10 23:56:57 2010 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?eWFzaXIgftmK2Kcg2LPYsQ==?=) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 23:26:57 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] PAKISTAN Air Force is running a torture cell In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: too much freedom for some On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 3:45 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > http://www.ahrchk.net/statements/mainfile.php/2010statements/2535/ > > PAKISTAN: The Air Force is running a torture cell at its Air > Headquarters where six members of a Christian family were tortured, a > girl lost her legs > > FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE > AHRC-STM-074-2010 > May 10, 2010 > > A Statement by the Asian Human Rights Commission > > PAKISTAN: The Air Force is running a torture cell at its Air > Headquarters where six members of a Christian family were tortured, a > girl lost her legs > > The Asian Human Rights Commission (AHRC) has received a report of the > torture of six persons from a Christian family by officials of the > Pakistan Air Force. The arrest and torture continued for a period of > 18 days and was due to the suspicion that they had stolen gold > ornaments from the house of a Wing Commander in the Pakistan Air Force > (PAF). A 14 year-old girl and her 16 year-old brother were tortured by > the Wing Commander himself. As a result the girl is now disabled and > neither she nor her brother is able to walk properly. A Session Court > has helped obtain the victims’ release but has not initiated any > judicial process against the officials of the PAF even after finding > evidence that the family was tortured and being detained illegally in > the PAF torture cell. > > According to the information received from several sources, including > Miss Jamila Aslam, the lawyer of the victims, the Ephlal Ministry (a > Christian NGO), and the family members of the victims, the 14 year-old > Miss Sumera Masih was serving as a maid in the house of Mr. Faheem > Cheema, a Wing Commander in the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) in Islamabad. > Her job duties ranged from babysitting to cleaning, and she worked > from 8 a.m. in the morning until 9 p.m. at night. Around 8:30 p.m. on > the night of March 30, 2010, she was asked by the wife of the Wing > Commander to take early leave as their family would go out for dinner; > however, after 9.00 p.m. Sumera was asked to go to her employer’s > house because some gold ornaments and other valuable items were > missing. She was beaten and threatened by the wife of the Wing > Commander that if she did not return the stolen items, she and her > family would be handed over to the police. After 10.00 pm she was > allowed to return to the servant quarters inside the PAF colony. In > the meantime the Wing Commander reported the theft of the gold > ornaments and the other valuable items to the Margala police station > in Islamabad by telephone without naming any suspects. > > Later then, the Wing Commander allegedly directed the PAF police to > detain Sumera and her family without informing the local police > station. At 1.00 a.m. a van from the PAF police came; three persons > exited and went into the servant quarters. They took Sumera and her > father, Mr. Pervez Masih, to the PAF police station at the PAF Air > Headquarters, sector E-9, Islamabad Chaklala, Shaheen Chowk. Two hours > after the arrest at 3.00a.m., the PAF police returned to the house and > took Perveen Bibi and Miss Sana, Sumera's mother and 20 year-old > sister, into custody and drove away. 40 minutes after this, the same > PAF police officials came and took her 16 year-old brother, Mr. Imran > Masih, with them. On April 7 her paternal uncle Kala Masih was also > arrested by the PAF police while he was searching for the family. > > The mother and her elder sisters were released after two days of being > severely tortured in illegal detention with the warning, by Wing > Commander himself, that if they informed anybody of these arrests they > would not be released and would be punished heavily. According to her > lawyer, the wing commander regularly visited the victims’ house to > beat and torture the mother and sister to make them confess that they > had stolen the ornaments. > > In the meantime, Parveen Bibi filed an application before the > Islamabad Superintendent of Police (SP) with the help of her brother > who was living in another city. The SP had tried to investigate the > case and directed the Federal Investigation Unit (FIU) to probe the > matter of the theft of the gold ornaments. The girl and her family > members were interrogated by the FIU, but according to the lawyer, > they were not tortured by the FIU. > > The SP also sent the case for legal process to a judicial magistrate > in Islamabad, but he refused to take the case as PAF and armed forces > were involved. > > The lawyers, Miss Jamila Aslam and Miss Shamona Javed, have filed a > case based upon the illegal suspension of the writ of habeas corpus on > April 13 before the District and Session court judge, Mr. Mazhar > Hussain Barlas. He immediately fixed the date for regular hearing and > called the public prosecutor the next day for comments. The day after > this, the court ordered all the arrested persons be produced before > the court. Sumera’s father, Pervez Masih, and his cousin, Kala Masih, > were produced before the court, but Sumera and her brother Imran Masih > were not produced. The judge ordered that her father and uncle be > released immediately but also asked the PAF police to produce Sumera > and her younger brother on April 17. > > On April 17 though, Sumera was not produced before the court. Station > House Officer Mumtaz Sheikh told to the court that Sumera’s health > prohibited her to come to the court. She was admitted to the PAF > Hospital purportedly suffering from a viral infection. But the lawyer > informed the court that Sumera had been severely tortured and could > not walk, and furthermore that the PAF police were purposely avoiding > producing her before the court. The court then ordered that she must > be produced within two hours or a FIR would be lodged against the PAF > police and the wing commander. In the afternoon Sumera was produced > before the court; she was not able to walk and her father had to carry > her in his arms. She was not even able to sit. She had been pressured > and threatened by the PAF officials to say that she had a throat > infection but the judge then asked why she was unable to walk if that > was the case. > > After assurance from the judge and lawyers, the 14 year-old maid told > the court that every day she was tortured by the wing commander and > PAF police officials at a torture cell. Whenever PAF officials were > conducting torture, they would blindfold her and beat her about the > back and spinal cord. When Wing Commander Cheema entered the room, he > saw that she was not blindfolded and threw a glass plate at her head; > after which she fainted. She said she did not know for how many hours > she was unconscious but woke up to find herself at the PAF hospital. > The judge ordered proper medical treatment for her at the PAF’s > expense, but they have yet to make any such payment or provide > treatment. > > Furthermore, the PAF officials did not produce her younger brother > Imran to the court, but on the strong reaction from the Session judge, > PAF police released him the next day on April 18; but released him in > such a way as to not make it seem as if he was in PAF custody. Imran > Masih recorded in his testimony before the session court that the PAF > police had hired him a taxi to bring him to Iqbal town in Islamabad; > they had also planted a railway return ticket from Faisalabad, about > 600 kilometers away, to make it seem as if he was coming from > Faisalabad. When the taxi driver dropped him at Iqbal Town in > Islamabad, the police were waiting for him; they arrested and produced > him before the court. When the court asked of his whereabouts during > past 18 days, he told the court that he was coming by railway. But the > court was not satisfied by his answer as he was carried in by two > police officers and could not walk properly. The court assured him to > tell truth and that he was well protected. He then told the court that > he was kept in a house at PAF Air Headquarters where officials of the > PAF police and the Wing Commander Cheema tortured him to confess that > his family and sister had stolen the gold ornaments from the house of > the Wing Commander. He said that he was hung from a tree in the heat > under the sun and was beaten severely at the back and legs. It was > because of this that he was not able to walk. He said on the morning > of April 18th that he was put in a taxi by PAF police officials with a > return railway ticket from Faisalabad and was told that he should tell > the court that he was in Faisalabad. He was told that if he said that > he was at PAF Headquarters, his sister and other family members would > not be released. The court then ordered for his release and asked the > Margalla police to provide protection to the family because of this > information. > > At this moment the court asked the lawyers and the victim's family > whether to take legal action against the PAF police and the other > officials for illegally detaining and torturing the family. The > victims, after consulting with their lawyers, told the court that they > are very poor and are Christians so they could not fight with such a > powerful group as the armed forces. The court set aside the cases of > habeas corpus as all the members of the family were recovered and did > not take any action against the perpetrators. > > During the court proceedings, Dr. Nusrat Saleem of the PAF hospital > said in her statement when the judge asked why Sumera was not brought > on the court orders was because of injuries sustained during torture, > She continued to say that Sumera is barely able to walk and might not > be able to walk for the rest of her life. > > The victims are now hiding in another city because of continuous > threats from Wing Commander Faheem Cheema and other officials of the > Pakistan Air Force for revealing the torture cell at the PAF Air > Headquarters. > > The running of torture cells at PAF Air Headquarters shows that armed > forces are running their own parallel extrajudicial investigation > systems. The Asian Human Rights Commission had already documented that > the Pakistan army is running 52 torture cells all over the country, > please see the following link: > http://www.ahrchk.net/statements/mainfile.php/2008statements/1574/. > > This case of torture by the members of the Pakistan armed forces is > ample proof that courts are still under the influence of the armed > forces and are unable to implement the law equally. > The Christian organisations assert that the worst kind of torture is > reserved for them because of their religion and the fact that they are > very poor. The Session court judge Mr. Barlas saved the lives of the > family by taking prompt action to protect them from the PAF torture, > but he should have taken action against the PAF and the Wing > Commander, as it is his legal obligation, despite the fact that the > victims did not want to pursue their own legal remedy. > > It is a matter of deep concern, as to the legal procedures adopted by > the judiciary, that when it was proved beyond any doubt that the Wing > Commander Faheem Cheema and the PAF police officials conducted torture > causing the two children to suffer severe injuries the Judge avoided > taking any legal action against them. It is observed that in cases > involving the armed forces the judiciary, including the Supreme Court, > avoids taking legal action against the armed forces. It is because of > this that the armed forces have rendered themselves above the law. In > the cases of disappearances the family members of the victims’ have > provided all the evidence of involvement of state intelligence > agencies, including the Supreme Court, but the courts have never asked > the officials of the armed forces to testify before the court. > > The Judicial Magistrate of Islamabad has refused to take cases > involving the armed forces even when the SP of Islamabad has forwarded > him the application from the mother of Sumera for legal process. The > rule of law then cannot be guaranteed when the judiciary itself > refuses to take cases against the armed forces providing them with > blanket impunity to torture and illegally detain people like Sumera > and her family. > > The torture case of Sumera, her brother, and their parents in the PAF > Air Headquarters shows the total collapse of rule of the law where > many military and paramilitary organizations are running their illegal > detention centers and conducting torture. The judiciary also claims > that it is independent, but the armed forces are kept out of their > domain as if the judiciary does not involve itself in the > supra-constitutional affairs of the armed forces. The same situation > is seen in the media. They do not cover the atrocities of the armed > forces because media houses know their power. In the case of Sumera, > the media, particularly the electronic media, blacked out the court > proceedings. > > The Asian Human Rights Commission urges upon the President and Prime > Minister to conduct an enquiry against the PAF officials for running > torture cells in its air headquarters where the people are kept > illegally and tortured. The government should also prosecute the Wing > Commander Faheem Cheema and the PAF police officials for the illegal > detention and the torture of the six members of a Christian family > through which the whole family was in a state of trauma. In addition > to this, a girl of 14 years has lost the use of her legs for life and > a boy of 16 years is no longer able to walk properly. > > The government should also follow its own pledge, made before the UN > Human Rights Council in 2008 before becoming its member, that it will > make the law according to the UN Convention Against Torture (CAT). It > is shameful then to think that the government cannot protect religious > minorities from more powerful groups, particularly from the members of > the armed forces. > > # # # > > About AHRC: The Asian Human Rights Commission is a regional > non-governmental organisation monitoring and lobbying human rights > issues in Asia. The Hong Kong-based group was founded in 1984. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rinchin at gmail.com Tue May 11 10:50:39 2010 From: rinchin at gmail.com (rinchin etc) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 10:50:39 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: CMCS Fellowship for Early Career Film Makers In-Reply-To: References: <4BE1B41C.9040906@gmail.com> Message-ID: wnat to try again? On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 8:08 AM, Shilpa Phadke wrote: > CMCS Fellowship for Early Career Film Makers > http://cmcsecf.wordpress.com > > The Centre for Media and Cultural Studies www.cmcs.tiss.edu, Tata > Institute of Social Sciences announces a fellowship for film-makers at > an early stage of their career. The fellowship is designed to provide > the resources and environment for films that are innovative, relevant > and contribute to the growing body of documentary work > in India. > > The fellowship consists of: > > * A stipend of Rs. 15,000 per month for a maximum period of > five months. > * The provision of in-house HDV equipment including camera and > editing facilities. > * Reimbursement of actuals of production expenses on the basis of > a pre-approved budget. These expenses are expected to be in the region of > Rs. 1.25 lakhs to Rs. 1.5 lakhs, depending on the logistics of the specific > project. > > In order to be considered for the fellowship applicants are required to > provide: > > * A detailed curriculum vitae > * Up to two non-returnable samples of work on DVD/VCD. > * An essay outlining the film proposal in not more than 2000 > words. This essay should include: a working title for the film, > language, the central theme of the film, approach to the content and > narrative style, possible visual segments. > * A production schedule with a detailed time frame for: research > and script, cinematography, editing to rough cut, editing to final > cut, submission of all material. > * A budget for other production expenses (e.g. travel, field > expenses, payments to other professionals etc.). Please note that the > fellowship does not support any infrastructural costs such as setting > up of an office, buying of equipment, or per diem costs. > * Names and contact details of two referees, preferably from the > field of media, whom we will contact for a reference if needed. > > The fellowship is open to all Indian nationals. An early career filmmaker > is > defined as someone who has completed her/his media education not more than > 5 > years ago. In case of applicants without a media degree, they should have > made not more than 5 documentary or short films already. > Up to two fellowships are available based on the quality of applications. > Short-listed candidates may have to come for an interview in mid-July 2010. > Travel for the interview will be reimbursed at the rates of three tier > non-AC train fare against valid tickets. > All proposals must be submitted as hard copies and signed by the film > maker. > For any queries please contact: _cmcs.fellowships at gmail.com cmcs.fellowships%40gmail.com >_ > > Last date for receipt of applications is June 7, 2010 > > Terms of the fellowship: > > o Selected fellows will be paid their fellowship amount on a > monthly basis and for production expenses in instalments as and when > needed. > o The footage and final film produced will remain with the > Digital Archive of the Centre. However, the fellow might retain a copy > of the same, for her/his personal use. The copyright will be held > jointly by the fellow and the Centre. The film will be distributed by > the Centre as a part of its catalogue of productions. The fellow may > also distribute the film. The Centre will be cited in the credits as > the Producer of the film and the fellow will be cited as Director of > the said film. > o The fellow is expected to adhere to the time schedule s/he > proposes. Any changes should be notified in advance. > o There will be a small advisory committee for each project. > The committee will facilitate the work of the fellow. S/he is > expected to keep in touch with the committee on a regular basis and > discuss and share her/his work at every stage (shooting script/ rough > edit and final edit). > o The fellowship(s) will be announced by July end and the fellowship period > will be from September 2010 to January 2011. > > -- > ____________________________________________________________. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Tue May 11 13:57:41 2010 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 01:27:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] When IPL is nationalised In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <604597.2180.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Perhaps they also tell us a lot of one aspect of degraded governance in India.   Instead of addressing and tackling the core of the problem that results in prejudices, exploitation and marginalisation, we bring in shallow cosmetic changes hoping that deep down things will sort themselves out on their own.   We will not work towards making sure that there is effective insulation, circuit-breakers and regular monitoring of systems but deploy a whole lot of Fire Tenders to try and douse the fires which will keep on smouldering   Kshmendra   --- On Mon, 5/10/10, Pheeta Ram wrote: From: Pheeta Ram Subject: Re: [Reader-list] When IPL is nationalised To: "Kshmendra Kaul" Cc: "sarai list" Date: Monday, May 10, 2010, 7:06 PM Point number 2 and 9 are particularly worth noting. Despite being tongue-in-cheek they tell us a lot about the author.  On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 1:49 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: Mail in circulation. Author not known. Delightful in parts.   (I dont see anything funny about Cheerleaders performing folk dances during breaks)   Kshmendra     22 things that will happen when the IPL is nationalised‏ 1.     The new Commissioner of the IPL, replacing Lalit Modi, will be an IAS officer, 1989 batch, transferred from the Food Corporation of India   2.     Mayawati will demand, however, that the new Chairman should be her own candidate,  Mr Dalit Modi.   3.     The name of Mumbai Indians will immediately be changed to Mumbai Manus. It will, naturally, field only  Maharashtrians (preferably Maharshtrian Brahmins). All other players will have their legs broken. Zaheer Khan will have his house burned down. So will Irfan Pathan, Yusuf Pathan and Mohd Kaif.   4.     The Chennai Super Kings team will renamed Dravida Cricket Kazhagam. Subsequently one faction will break away and the team will split into DCK (DMK) and AIADCK, owing allegience to Karunanidhi and Jayalalitha respectively   5.     Each political party will have its own team: BJP Bandits, Congress Cobras, CPI  Cadres, Samajwadi Strikers, CPM Challengers, Trinamul Tigers etc   6.     Auction of players will be replaced by teams calling for tenders for players. The lowest priced players will be picked.   7. Cheerleaders will be replaced by honourable ministers who will give speeches during breaks in the match   8.     Sonia Gandhi will insist that 30% of each team should be reserved for be women   9.     Mayawati will demand that SC/ST players will need to run for only 18 yards instead of 22 yards between the wickets   10.     Third Umpire requests will have to be filled in triplicate and duly notarized   11.  All Third Umpire decisions will be referred to a Joint Parlimentary Commission.   12.  IPL tickets will henceforth be available at all post offices and BSNL centers from 10 a.m. to 12.45 p.m. The facility to purchase tickets on your cell-phone will immediately be withdrawn   13.  Replacing an injured foreign player can be done only through a Tatkal application submitted 48 hours after a Govt doctor examines him   14.  Cheerleaders will be replaced by retired Air-India flight attendants.   15.  These new cheerleaders will perform the folk dances of the states they represent during breaks   16.  IPL matches will be shown only on Doordarshan. They will be telecast the day immediately following the match, from 4 a.m. to 7.30 a.m. and subsequently from 3.30 a.m. to 7p.m, subject to satellite link-up availability   17.  Between each  innings break Doordarshan will telecast the news in Hindi, followed by news for  the hearing impaired.   18.  Agricultural shots can be played only during the phase of the game termed "Krishi Darshan"   19.  There will be no matches on weekends or on national/regional holidays   20.  The three stumps will be painted saffron, white and green.   21.  Bowlers will have to bowl sarpatti and ghasssarkundi balls to the reserved players.   22.  Pakistan will immediately announce its intention to start its own version of the tournament called PPL and Mr Zardari will make a visit to Washington to meeet President Obama and seek an additional grant of $1 billion to fund it _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: From aliens at dataone.in Tue May 11 16:10:11 2010 From: aliens at dataone.in (Bipin Trivedi) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 16:10:11 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] UID CARD BENEFIT In-Reply-To: References: <000f01caef6c$7f17c0d0$7d474270$@in> <000c01caef93$1d829ad0$5887d070$@in> <000301caf033$2c3f8880$84be9980$@in> <000f01caf065$361fd760$a25f8620$@in> Message-ID: <001201caf0f6$566aa090$033fe1b0$@in> Dear Taha, Thanks for your mail and jealous of me!!! Hahaha. Your way of comparison amazed me! You want to compare so many units of non-living things with the (imaginary) unit - identity of a person, the living things. Only one person in this universe can define your unit of measurement or identity, can you guess who? Should I answer or wait for your reply and then answer in the next mail? Let me wait. Thanks Bipin -----Original Message----- From: Taha Mehmood [mailto:2tahamehmood at googlemail.com] Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 11:50 PM To: Bipin Trivedi Cc: sarai-list Subject: Re: UID CARD BENEFIT Dear Bipin, Thank you for your mail. I am amazed at the conviction of your thoughts. May I just say, I feel very jealous of you!! Unfortunately this conviction eludes me. Let me tell you why. Lets look at the idea of a second. Now they say, a second is a unit to measure time. Similarly a meter is a unit to measure distance. A gram is a unit to measure weight. These entities appear clear because they can be measured. The different units of these entities are universally applicable and universally acceptable. Now I would like to know from you is this- what is a precise unit of measurement of -an identity of a person-. I understand you appear to be a big fan of the advantages of UID. I think you are probably right. I think advantages will come after the census is done. A census will be done after an aggregate measure of individual identities is gathered. The an aggregate measure of individual identities will be gathered after the data is be entered. The data will be entered after the data is verified. The data will be verified after it is individually collected. The data will be individually collected after the forms are filled correctly. The forms will be entered correctly after they are printed correctly. The will be printed correctly after the categories are formulated correctly. The categories will be formulated correctly if they are thought through correctly. So please tell me in your view does Mr. Nandan Nilekani and his team have correctly formulated a vision to measure individual identity? If so, then how? IF not then why is this gross mis-measure of man is going on? Why this stupid exercise is being allowed by well meaning people like you? You know Bipin, please do not get me wrong here, because I really want these advantages to go to the underprivileged of India but I am not sure whether people have done fundamental research in really thinking hard about the idea of identity. Identity appears fuzzy to me. Warm regards Taha From shashidhar at butterfliesindia.org Tue May 11 16:44:41 2010 From: shashidhar at butterfliesindia.org (Shashidhar) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 16:44:41 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] UID CARD BENEFIT In-Reply-To: <37D87DBF6CB64AA2B4E82E6DE34FE64F@butterfliesdelhi.local> References: <000f01caef6c$7f17c0d0$7d474270$@in><000c01caef93$1d829ad0$5887d070$@in><000301caf033$2c3f8880$84be9980$@in><000f01caf065$361fd760$a25f8620$@in> <37D87DBF6CB64AA2B4E82E6DE34FE64F@butterfliesdelhi.local> Message-ID: <002901caf0fb$271beec0$7553cc40$@butterfliesindia.org> The UID does not try and answer rhetorical questions, of identity, those questions are better answered by godmen and their kin. It seems to me to be a simple exercise of enumeration, what is wrong with it? Why are people opposed to it, recently in Delhi there was a PIL filed by a huge consortium of NGO's against the UID. The first point of reference for any service is enumeration and UID to me seems to be a simple exercise which plans on doing that. Yes there is the question of them reaching out to the unreached, Street kids and so many other who do not have any identity. Shashi -----Original Message----- From: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net [mailto:reader-list-bounces at sarai.net] On Behalf Of Bipin Trivedi Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2010 4:31 PM To: 'Taha Mehmood' Cc: sarai-list Subject: Re: [Reader-list] UID CARD BENEFIT Dear Taha, Thanks for your mail and jealous of me!!! Hahaha. Your way of comparison amazed me! You want to compare so many units of non-living things with the (imaginary) unit - identity of a person, the living things. Only one person in this universe can define your unit of measurement or identity, can you guess who? Should I answer or wait for your reply and then answer in the next mail? Let me wait. Thanks Bipin -----Original Message----- From: Taha Mehmood [mailto:2tahamehmood at googlemail.com] Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 11:50 PM To: Bipin Trivedi Cc: sarai-list Subject: Re: UID CARD BENEFIT Dear Bipin, Thank you for your mail. I am amazed at the conviction of your thoughts. May I just say, I feel very jealous of you!! Unfortunately this conviction eludes me. Let me tell you why. Lets look at the idea of a second. Now they say, a second is a unit to measure time. Similarly a meter is a unit to measure distance. A gram is a unit to measure weight. These entities appear clear because they can be measured. The different units of these entities are universally applicable and universally acceptable. Now I would like to know from you is this- what is a precise unit of measurement of -an identity of a person-. I understand you appear to be a big fan of the advantages of UID. I think you are probably right. I think advantages will come after the census is done. A census will be done after an aggregate measure of individual identities is gathered. The an aggregate measure of individual identities will be gathered after the data is be entered. The data will be entered after the data is verified. The data will be verified after it is individually collected. The data will be individually collected after the forms are filled correctly. The forms will be entered correctly after they are printed correctly. The will be printed correctly after the categories are formulated correctly. The categories will be formulated correctly if they are thought through correctly. So please tell me in your view does Mr. Nandan Nilekani and his team have correctly formulated a vision to measure individual identity? If so, then how? IF not then why is this gross mis-measure of man is going on? Why this stupid exercise is being allowed by well meaning people like you? You know Bipin, please do not get me wrong here, because I really want these advantages to go to the underprivileged of India but I am not sure whether people have done fundamental research in really thinking hard about the idea of identity. Identity appears fuzzy to me. Warm regards Taha _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From javedmasoo at gmail.com Tue May 11 17:13:52 2010 From: javedmasoo at gmail.com (Javed) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 17:13:52 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Delayed Waking up: Terrorism Investigations Message-ID: Delayed Waking up: Terrorism Investigations Ram Puniyani The Ajmer bomb blasts took place on 11th October 2007; these took place inside the holy Shrine of Khwaja Moinuddin Chisti, killing two people. In the wake of this the central Home minister, in his standard statement said that this is the handiwork of HUJI and Lashkar-e-Tayyaba type groups who are indulging in these activities and this is aimed to disrupt the communal harmony in the country. Three years down the line now a RSS functionary Devendra Gupta and his associates have been accused of triggering this blast and have been arrested. To cap it all there seems to be the connection between this Ajmer blast and the blast which took place in Mecca Masjid in Hyderabad, which took place a few months ago of this Ajmer blast (May 2007). There is also the news that the Rajasthan police despite evidence delayed the investigation of Ajmer blasts as the leads of investigation pointed towards the involvement of Hindu right wing terror gangs. One also hears that since Sadhvi Pragya Singh Thakur was arrested in connection with Malegaon blasts, her links led to Swami Asimanand of Dangs, who is the major RSS combine figure of the area. He is absconding since then. And now apart from Maharashtra police Rajasthan police is also looking for him. Strange things have happened in connection with the investigation of blasts during last few years. The thesis guiding the police investigation for a long time was that terror groups are being promoted by Pakistan and they want to create communal disharmony, that they are putting bombs in places of Muslim worship. It is due to this and the inherent biases of our investigation agencies that for so long and despite clear involvement of terror groups inspired and connected with ideology of RSS were not touched. It was after Hemant Karkare discovered the irrefutable evidence of Sadhvi’s motor cycle used in Maelgaon blasts and her connections with all others, Lt Col. Prasad Shrikant Purohit, Swami Dayanand Pande, Retd. Major Upadhaya etc., that the nexus was discovered. After the tragic killing of Hemant Karkare again the investigation has put on the slow track. In the face of such strong evidences now some of the investigation authorities are forced to wake up to the threat of terrorism done by these groups. There has been a pattern of these terror attacks done by the likes of Sadhvi, those connected with RSS ideology or remotely connected with organizations floated by the ones’ trained in RSS ideology. This raises lot of questions about the professional competence of our investigation agencies. The blasts took place in the places where predominantly Muslims congregate, blasts took place at times when their numbers was maximum in the places of prayer. The observation was that after the blasts, blinded by the inherent biases, the investigation agencies made it a routine to arrest some Muslim youth. The names of HUJI, Lashkar, and SIMI have been dished out and lapped up by media which has shaped the public opinion. The problems which we witnessed in this are two fold. One, the innocents were tortured and their lives and careers were ruined by this crass attitude and second the real culprits carried on merrily one after the other, knowing full well that they will be protected because of their religion and because of their organization, which makes maximum noises against terrorism itself. The pattern began with Nanded in 2006, when two Bajrang Dal workers died while making bombs, in the same city later a Shiv Sena Shaka member died in the go-down storing biscuits, two Bajrag Dal Workers died in Kanpur in 2008 and many such incidents kept going on. The tide in a way turned when the irrefutable evidence of Sadhvi Pragya Singh Thakurs' motor cycle being used in Malegaon blast was detected. The immaculate investigation done by Mahrashtra ATS led to the detection of the involvement of other such affiliates (meaning all those organization who subscribe to ideology of Hindu Nation, Hindutva and whose core team is trained in this ideology). Sadhvis' photo was also seen with the BJP President Rajnath Singh. Surely after the arrest of the real culprits starting from the Sadhvi, the frequency of terror attacks has come down. In Thane on 4th June 2008, two Hindu Jagran Samiti workers were arrested for planting the bombs in the basement of Gadkari Rangayatan, due to which 7 people got injured. The same group was involved in the blasts in Vashi, Panvel also. This group was also involved in the bomb blast in Goa, recently on the occasion of Narak Chaturdashi. This group idolizes Savarkar (Hindu Mahasabha) and Hedgewar (RSS) and indoctrinates its members into hating Christians and Muslims. Similarly on 24th August 2008 two Bajrang Dal activists died in Kanpur, while making bombs. The Kanpur zone IGP S.N. Singh stated that their investigations have revealed that this group was planning massive explosions all over the state. Indian Express, 23 Oct 2008 reports that those involved in the bomb blast in Malegaon and Modasa (Sept 2008) had links with Akhil Bhartiya Vidyarthi Parishad Similarly in Tenkasi, Tamil Nadu pipe bomb attack on RSS office (Jan.2008) was projected to have been done by Jehadi Muslims. The investigation revealed many a Hindu names and later the investigations was frozen. In an alleged Fidayin attack was claimed that in the attack on RSS office in Nagpur (June 1, 2006) three of them were killed in the police encounter, as per the police version. Citizens Inquiry report, headed by Justice Kolse Patil doubted the police version in a serious way; the clarifications did not come through from the authorities. Pained by this attitude of the State and investigating authorities a Citizens tribunal was held in Hyderabad August 2008, the tribunal concluded that, “This fight against terrorism, victims emphasized, has veered more around witch hunting of Muslims rather than curbing terrorism, thus robbing people of their liberty and freedom and making them more insecure than ever before. The real culprits, they said, often roam freely whereas the poor and gullible Muslims are picked up and thrown into jails at whims and fancies of the powers that be. Victims after victims, who have undergone harassment and torture without any evidence permissible in the court of law against them, deposed before the tribunal — comprising country’s eminent personalities including former judges, lawyers and renowned social activists – and narrated their tales of woes to the shock and anguish of hundreds of audience.” One of the major hurdles which have obstructed the truth coming out is that the investigation of the blasts cases is not easy and a lot depends on the investigation authorities’ attitude and bias. In these cases media generally laps up whatever is dished out by police and not much of independent voice comes up. Those doubting the police version are dubbed as anti national and media keeps itself at safe distance from those who care to pick the holes in theory put out by police. Usual norm of journalism should be to doubt the state version also and not to dismiss those who have alternative version. In cases of terror attacks this norm is kept aside. It is because of this that so far the investigations do not get the corrective direction, and many a times are totally fallacious, as the truth coming out from Ajmer case and other similar cases show us. One hopes that professionalism prevails over biases and independent voices are not stifled in such matters if we want to reach the truth, if we want to ensure that such attacks do not repeat themselves. -- Issues in Secular Politics IV May 2010 www.pluralindia.com response only to ram.puniyani at gmail.com From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Tue May 11 17:40:52 2010 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 13:10:52 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] UID CARD BENEFIT In-Reply-To: <002901caf0fb$271beec0$7553cc40$@butterfliesindia.org> References: <000c01caef93$1d829ad0$5887d070$@in> <000301caf033$2c3f8880$84be9980$@in> <000f01caf065$361fd760$a25f8620$@in> <37D87DBF6CB64AA2B4E82E6DE34FE64F@butterfliesdelhi.local> <002901caf0fb$271beec0$7553cc40$@butterfliesindia.org> Message-ID: Dear Bipin and Shahidhar, Thank you for your responses. Enumeration is fine with me. You count a person, you attach a figure. Simple and straightforward. Any act of governance needs that. I do not have a problem with it. Identity is a tricky issue. It's a fuzzy issue. The word is fuzzy. Is it not vague? Does it not mean many things? Can it be be categorized by a singular notion? The GOI is transferring 1.5 Lakh crore rupees in the name of identity. And Bipin I do not know who can define a unit of measurement of identity. I am not interested in who. I am not bothered by who. Who can be tom, dick or harry or a sita or a gita or ram or a rahim for all I care. I am interested in How and Why and What. So I would be glad if you could forgo who and tell me how identity can be measured, by what means and why those means represent a true measurement of a person's identity? Please allow me explain what I mean- If the pharmacist makes a drug without going into the nature of what constitutes the elements of that drug, what does that drug do, what illness can it alleviate and gives that drug to a doctor and the doctor prescribes that drug to you without diagnosing you, without verifying the nature of your illness and without establishing whether this drug is the only drug amongst all the drugs which are available in a market which can alleviate your illness. Will you take that drug Bipin? Simply because a doctor of medicine has given it to you? Will you be so charmed by the packaging of the drug that you will suspend doubt? Will you be so in awe of man in white clothes that you will give in because the name tag in front of his room says MD MBBS? Or will you allow doubt to enter, Bipin? Think! In the similar manner, can we not think about the people of India as a body? Are we not told that some parts of our body are getting weak because they are not nourished? Are we not prescribed a medicine in the name of UID? Is it not our responsibility to doubt, both as individuals and as a collective, to assess whether such a drug is good or not? Because if it a bad drug it might effect the life of our entire body which includes you and me Bipin. Who would we blame then, Bipin. Governments come and go. That's the nature of governance. But we are here to stay. That's the nature of people. UID is build on the idea of identity. Identity is a fuzzy notion. It is a vague idea. It means many things to many people. It might mean one thing to many people. It might also mean many things to one person. Or it might mean nothing to no one. or every thing to every one. In every case the meaning, the nature of identity is inconsistent. Should we not allow this inconsistency in meaning of identity to remain? Warm regards Taha From oishiksircar at gmail.com Tue May 11 17:45:34 2010 From: oishiksircar at gmail.com (OISHIK SIRCAR) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 17:45:34 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] cinema city course In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: *Announcing Certificate Course on* * * *City Narratives in Cinema and Literature* *9th July to 12th October 2010* * * *For detail please visit www.cinemacitycourse.com* *Last date to apply 7th June 2010* * * *Organised by Majlis, Maxmuller Bhavan Mumbai and SNDT Women’s University* (Please forward it to others) -- www.majlisbombay.org -- OISHIK SIRCAR oishiksircar at gmail.com oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Tue May 11 18:21:12 2010 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 05:51:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] "Islam's Nowhere Men" Message-ID: <540953.94134.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> An interesting perspective.   Foreboding warning from the author:   " This is a long twilight war, the struggle against radical Islamism. We can't wish it away. No strategy of winning "hearts and minds," no great outreach, will bring this struggle to an end."   Kshmendra     MAY 10, 2010 "Islam's Nowhere Men" (Millions like Faisal Shahzad are unsettled by a modern world they can neither master nor reject.) By FOUAD AJAMI 'A Muslim has no nationality except his belief," the intellectual godfather of the Islamists, Egyptian Sayyid Qutb, wrote decades ago. Qutb's "children" are everywhere now; they carry the nationalities of foreign lands and plot against them. The Pakistani born Faisal Shahzad is a devotee of Sayyid Qutb's doctrine, and Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan, the Fort Hood shooter, was another.   Qutb was executed by the secular dictatorship of Gamal Abdel Nasser in 1966. But his thoughts and legacy endure. Globalization, the shaking up of continents, the ease of travel, and the doors for immigration flung wide open by Western liberal societies have given Qutb's worldview greater power and relevance. What can we make of a young man like Shahzad working for Elizabeth Arden, receiving that all-American degree, the MBA, jogging in the evening in Bridgeport, then plotting mass mayhem in Times Square?   The Islamists are now within the gates. They fled the fires and the failures of the Islamic world but brought the ruin with them. They mock national borders and identities. A parliamentary report issued by Britain's House of Commons on the London Underground bombings of July 7, 2005 lays bare this menace and the challenge it poses to a system of open borders and modern citizenship.   The four men who pulled off those brutal attacks, the report noted, "were apparently well integrated into British society." Three of them were second generation Britons born in West Yorkshire. The oldest, a 30-year-old father of a 14-month-old infant, "appeared to others as a role model to young people." One of the four, 22 years of age, was a boy of some privilege; he owned a red Mercedes given to him by his father and was given to fashionable hairstyles and designer clothing. This young man played cricket on the eve of the bombings. The next day, the day of the terror, a surveillance camera filmed him in a store. "He buys snacks, quibbles with the cashier over his change, looks directly at the CCTV camera, and leaves." Two of the four, rather like Faisal Shahzad, had spent time in Pakistan before they pulled off their deed.   A year after the London terror, hitherto tranquil Canada had its own encounter with the new Islamism. A ring of radical Islamists were charged with plotting to attack targets in southern Ontario with fertilizer bombs. A school-bus driver was one of the leaders of these would-be jihadists. A report by the Canadian Security Intelligence Service unintentionally echoed the British House of Commons findings. "These individuals are part of Western society, and their 'Canadianness' makes detection more difficult. Increasingly, we are learning of more and more extremists that are homegrown. The implications of this shift are profound."   And indeed they are, but how can "Canadianness" withstand the call of the faith and the obligation of jihad? I think of one Egyptian Islamist in London, a man by the name of Yasser Sirri, who gave the matter away some six years ago: "The whole Arab world was dangerous for me. I went to London," he observed.   In Egypt, three sentences had been rendered against him: one condemned him to 25 years of hard labor, the second to 15 years, and the third to death for plotting to assassinate a prime minister. Sirri had fled Egypt to Yemen, then to the Sudan. But it was better and easier in bilad al-kufar, the lands of unbelief. There is wealth in the West and there are the liberties afforded by an open society.   In an earlier age—I speak here autobiographically, and not of some vanished world long ago but of the 1960s when I made my way to the United States—the world was altogether different. Mass migration from the Islamic world had not begun. The immigrants who turned up in Western lands were few, and they were keen to put the old lands, and their feuds and attachments, behind them. Islam was then a religion of Afro-Asia; it had not yet put down roots in Western Europe and the New World. Air travel was costly and infrequent.   The new lands, too, made their own claims, and the dominant ideology was one of assimilation. The national borders were real, and reflected deep civilizational differences. It was easy to tell where "the East" ended and Western lands began. Postmodernist ideas had not made their appearance. Western guilt had not become an article of faith in the West itself.   Nowadays the Islamic faith is portable. It is carried by itinerant preachers and imams who transmit its teachings to all corners of the world, and from the safety and plenty of the West they often agitate against the very economic and moral order that sustains them. Satellite television plays its part in this new agitation, and the Islam of the tele-preachers is invariably one of damnation and fire. From tranquil, banal places (Dubai and Qatar), satellite television offers an incendiary version of the faith to younger immigrants unsettled by a modern civilization they can neither master nor reject.   And home, the Old Country, is never far. Pakistani authorities say Faisal Shahzad made 13 visits to Pakistan in the last seven years. This would have been unthinkable three or four decades earlier. Shahzad lived on the seam between the Old Country and the New. The path of citizenship he took gave him the precious gift of an American passport but made no demands on him.   >From Pakistan comes a profile of Shahzad's father, a man of high military rank, and of property and standing: He was "a man of modern thinking and of the modern age," it was said of him in his ancestral village of Mohib Banda in recent days. That arc from a secular father to a radicalized son is, in many ways, the arc of Pakistan since its birth as a nation-state six decades ago. The secular parents and the radicalized children is also a tale of Islam, that broken pact with modernity, the mothers who fought to shed the veil and the daughters who now wish to wear the burqa in Paris and Milan.   In its beginnings, the Pakistan of Faisal Shahzad's parents was animated by the modern ideals of its founder, Muhammad Ali Jinnah. In that vision, Pakistan was to be a state for the Muslims of the subcontinent, but not an Islamic state in the way it ordered its political and cultural life. The bureaucratic and military elites who dominated the state, and defined its culture, were a worldly breed. The British Raj had been their formative culture.   But the world of Pakistan was recast in the 1980s under a zealous and stern military leader, Zia ul-Haq. Zia offered Pakistan Islamization and despotism. He had ridden the jihad in Afghanistan next door to supreme power; he brought the mullahs into the political world, and they, in turn, brought the militants with them.   ***   This was the Pakistan in which young Faisal Shahzad was formed; the world of his parents was irretrievable. The maxim that Pakistan is governed by a trinity—Allah, army, America—gives away this confusion: The young man who would do his best to secure an American education before succumbing to the call of the jihad is a man in the grip of a deep schizophrenia. The overcrowded cities of Islam—from Karachi and Casablanca to Cairo—and those cities in Europe and North America where the Islamic diaspora is now present in force have untold multitudes of men like Faisal Shahzad.   This is a long twilight war, the struggle against radical Islamism. We can't wish it away. No strategy of winning "hearts and minds," no great outreach, will bring this struggle to an end. America can't conciliate these furies. These men of nowhere—Faisal Shahzad, Nidal Malik Hasan, the American-born renegade cleric Anwar Awlaki now holed up in Yemen and their likes—are a deadly breed of combatants in this new kind of war. Modernity both attracts and unsettles them. America is at once the object of their dreams and the scapegoat onto which they project their deepest malignancies.   (Mr. Ajami, a professor at Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies and a senior fellow at Stanford University's Hoover Institution, is the author of "The Foreigner's Gift" (Free Press, 2007). )   http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703338004575230142684329162.html?mod=rss_Today's_Most_Popular   From rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com Tue May 11 18:33:21 2010 From: rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com (Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 18:33:21 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] "Oppose Draconian UAPA" In-Reply-To: <109187.9346.qm@web30603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <109187.9346.qm@web30603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Freedom and right to express ones thoughts are being used by the naxal sympathisers to subvert democratic rule of the nation, not that this form of rule is perfect and without flaws, but the violent means instead of ballot and use of force to subvert the rule of laws is the issue with naxalism. the naxal sympathisers with romance in their thoughts do not know the agenda of the naxal leadership of trying to be seats of power to be rulers, the cadres sacrificing, leaders living in hiding with all comforts, intellectuals selling/ nay prostituting their intellect for naxalism .! On Sat, May 8, 2010 at 1:29 PM, Rahul Pandita wrote: > Like Che said, if you distribute food to the poor, you are dubbed a saint. > So, we have a Kripalu Maharaj calling people in U.P. to his ashram for a > steel tumbler and a towel. To manage the crowds, his securitymen throw water > aka Delhi Police style on the crowd resulting in stampede. But he is still a > saint. > > But if you ask why the poor don't have food then you are a communist. Or, > as it happens now, a Maoist. That is not all. If you a Bhagat Singh photo on > your desk, you'll be put in under the UAPA. If you have a book on mining on > your shelf, you'll be in under the UAPA. If you raise questions over why 60 > lakh people need to be displaced for CWG in delhi, you'll be in under the > UAPA. If you go visit a Naxal ideologue in the prison in the capacity of a > journalist, you'll be in under the UAPA. > > These are dark times, my dear friends. And as that old woman says in > Sanjay's film: "What can one say about the dark times." > > > Rahul Pandita www.sanitysucks.blogspot.com Mobile: 9818088664 > > > --- On Sat, 8/5/10, Sanjay Kak wrote: > > > From: Sanjay Kak > > Subject: [Reader-list] "Oppose Draconian UAPA" > > To: "Sarai Reader List" > > Date: Saturday, 8 May, 2010, 11:52 > > Here is a Press Release in connection > > with the latest from the > > Ministry of Home Affairs > > Best > > > > Sanjay Kak > > > > ----------------------- > > > > Press release > > > > Coordination of Democratic Rights Organizations, CDRO > > > > Oppose Draconian UAPA > > > > 7th May 2010 > > > > The most recent alert (regarding use of section 39, UAPA) > > issued by > > the government in so called ‘public interest’ has > > brought out in the > > open what had so far been implicit in its anti-Maoist > > policy. The > > purpose of the circular is to intimidate voices of protests > > and > > dissent over government policies, particularly Operation > > Green Hunt. > > The statement criminalizes dissent and makes a mockery of > > the spirit > > of critical inquiry which is at the foundation of a strong > > democracy. > > As members of civil rights groups we consider the statement > > as an > > attack on civil society and reminiscent of the Emergency > > era. > > > > The contents of the circular show complete disregard of the > > concerns > > expressed by Supreme Court when it rebuked the Chhattisgarh > > government > > for labelling human rights activists and legitimate > > activities as > > ‘sympathetic’ to ‘naxals’, or the more recent > > concerns expressed by > > the Chief Justice over the government’s war against its > > own people. It > > is not surprising that the government has also chosen to > > ignore the > > ‘sympathetic’ and undoubtedly saner voices in its own > > ranks, which > > have a different perspective on addressing the problem. > > > > We condemn the government’s threat to use extraordinary > > draconian laws > > such as UAPA to constrain freedom of expression and free > > and informed > > debate on issues which are of crucial importance for the > > country. We > > further condemn the government for targeting political and > > civil > > rights groups who are doing no more than carrying out their > > democratic > > responsibility of ensuring equal protection of the > > Constitution to all > > sections of society. > > > > Signed by: > > > > Association for Democratic Rights (AFDR, Punjab); Andhra > > Pradesh Civil > > Liberties Committee (APCLC, Andhra Pradesh); Association > > for > > Protection of Democratic Rights (APDR, West Bengal); Bandi > > Mukti > > Committee (West Bengal); Committee for Protection of > > Democratic Rights > > (CPDR, Nagpur); Coordination of Human Rights (COHR, > > Manipur); Campaign > > for Peace and Democracy in Manipur (CPDM, Delhi); Human > > Rights Forum > > (HRF, Andhra Pradesh); Lokshahi Hak Sangathana (LHS, > > Maharashtra); > > Manab Adhikar Sangram Samiti (MASS, Assam); Naga People’s > > Movement for > > Human Rights (NPMHR); Organization for Protection of > > Democratic Rights > > (OPDR, Andhra Pradesh); People’s Committee for Human > > Rights (PCHR, > > Jammu and Kashmir); People’s Democratic Forum (PDF, > > Karnataka); > > People’s Union for Civil Liberties (PUCL, National); > > PUCL > > (Chhattisgarh); PUCL (Jharkhand); PUCL (Nagpur); PUCL > > (Rajasthan); > > People’s Union for Democratic Rights (PUDR, Delhi); > > People’s Union for > > Human Rights (PUHR, Haryana) > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > > city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- Rajen. From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Tue May 11 18:34:04 2010 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 06:04:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] "What I understand about Faisal Shahzad" Message-ID: <437894.87433.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> The following lines from below reproduced article by Wajahat Ali have been extensively quoted (w.r.t USA):   "Sometimes, I long for the blurry cultural identities of the 80s, when elementary school friends lumped all Pakistani, Bangladeshi, Sri Lankan and Egyptian immigrants in one brown-hued bucket: "India." Who wouldn't rather be affiliated with "Slumdog Millionaire," Metro PCS's Ranjit and Chad, Chicken Tikkah Masala, Bhangra remixes and Bollywood instead of religious extremism and Al Qaeda?"   Wajahat Ali also tells us that:   "Islam was recently voted "the third worst brand disaster of the decade" thanks to a few deluded individuals -- out of the vast 1.5 billion members of Muslim communities -- who have engaged in violent jihadi movements, honor killings, suicide bombings and pathetic assassination threats directed at satirical cartoonists. "   Kshmendra   "What I understand about Faisal Shahzad" (As a Muslim Pakistani, I can't tell you why he did it. But I know one violent nut can change how Americans see me)   By Wajahat Ali   Last Saturday, I was drinking my chai, reading the latest Green Lantern comic, and participating in the glorious American hobby that is Googling when I saw the news about the foiled NYC Times Square terror plot. I immediately began reciting the "Post-Crisis Minority Mantra," familiar to many ethnic minorities and religions in these troubled times:   "Please don't let it be a Muslim or Pakistani dude. Please don't let it be a Muslim or Pakistani dude."   Back then, it wasn't. They had footage of a suspicious white guy.    "Phew! Thank God!" I said out loud.   But I had to invoke the mantra repeatedly over the next few days, as details emerged and the truth became all too clear: The terrorist was a recently naturalized U.S. citizen from Pakistan named Faisal Shahzad. A Muslim Pakistani.   "No! Not again! Why, God, why??"   A Muslim born and raised in America with Pakistani parents, I was the "token" at early age. Growing up, I was like any other socially awkward, overweight, dorky American kid who wanted to date Alyssa Milano and beat Contra on my Nintendo without using the secret, unlimited life code -- except my T-shirts were smeared with turmeric and lentil stains instead of PB and J, and in place of Lunchables my mom fed me homemade, green-colored, lamb patty burgers. I was the kid comfortable with all his identities -- Muslim, American, Pakistani -- and as such, I became the one people consulted when uncomfortable questions had to be asked, or misconceptions and stereotypes needed to be explained.   After news of the averted attack, I was hit with a blitzkrieg of texts, Facebook updates and gchat pings. Friends from varying backgrounds -- Mexican-American, African-American, Arab-American -- wanted to know what I thought about another "Rage Boy" foolishly attempting to commit violence with an amateurish terror plot. Several made a similar confession: How glad they were that the suspect didn't belong to "their tribe." What I did know, with a sinking feeling, was that many moderate, peaceful Pakistani Muslims like me were further doomed to collective mistrust and suspicion.   America has a long tradition of scapegoating (see African Americans, Jews, Irish and Japanese Americans), in which the criminal and moral bankruptcy of a few perverse individuals becomes an archetype for multitudes. But when painting the complex experience of Muslim Pakistanis in the mainstream media, there seems to be only two colors: "Crazy" and "Hella Crazy." Islam was recently voted "the third worst brand disaster of the decade" thanks to a few deluded individuals -- out of the vast 1.5 billion members of Muslim communities -- who have engaged in violent jihadi movements, honor killings, suicide bombings and pathetic assassination threats directed at satirical cartoonists. Honestly, I cannot blame the average American, who gets his information from cable news or hate radio, for harboring such caricatures. The misunderstanding cuts both ways: When I travel in the Middle East, I'm asked why I invaded Iraq and want to impose my imperialistic might on sovereign nations. Thanks, George W. Bush, for this staggering global misconception.   But if "Muslim Pakistani American" were an asset, it would be more toxic than the Goldman Sachs Abacus CDO. If it were a stock, it would plummet to Enron levels.   Sometimes, I long for the blurry cultural identities of the 80s, when elementary school friends lumped all Pakistani, Bangladeshi, Sri Lankan and Egyptian immigrants in one brown-hued bucket: "India." Who wouldn't rather be affiliated with "Slumdog Millionaire," Metro PCS's Ranjit and Chad, Chicken Tikkah Masala, Bhangra remixes and Bollywood instead of religious extremism and Al Qaeda? Pakistani culture has some bomb biryani, lively and critical political commentary, Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan, and dubious Lollywood entertainment. But we rarely hear anything about that.   Sometimes, I feel Muslim Pakistanis are like Daffy Duck, always cursed to have the anvil drop on our heads, regardless of our patriotism, lack of criminal record, good credit score and groomed facial hair. The moderate and innocent majority collectively bear the brunt of the sins of a deluded minority, such as Faisal Shahzad.   This is something my white friends can never understand. They never get personal blowback when one of their members commits crimes. They are like Bugs Bunny to our Daffy Duck: They can get hit with a McVeigh, Madoff, Kaczynski, the Hutaris, even W. Bush. They just brush it off, make a wisecrack, and move along untouched. They are never asked to "prove their loyalty" or face increased racial profiling and "extra loving" pat downs at the airport.   In the last two days, many other Pakistani American Muslims like me have been bombarded with one question: "Why did Faisal Shahzad do it?" Let it be known that Pakistanis and Muslims are not like the Borg, some cybernetic species with a collective consciousness. There is no broadcast frequency that alerts us to the internal machinations of an angry or confused individual who simply happens to share our skin color, ethnicity or religious affiliation. We are not "alerted" when they create their diabolical plans to commit mayhem. It's akin to me asking all my white friends: Why does the Tea Party think Obama is a Muslim? What goes on in the mind of those crazy-ass white, Christian militias who hate the government? Or really: Why do white people wear cargo shorts?   But what I can tell you is that the news hits us differently. A friend of mine born and raised in this country, who is both a religious Muslim and shares strong Pakistani roots, emailed me saying he was "ashamed and disgraced" about Faisal Shahzad. A Pakistani immigrant uncle in the Texas community was outraged that the suspect tried to commit terror despite having just "recited a pledge of allegiance to his adopted country ... still the greatest country on the fact of the earth, warts and all notwithstanding." We face increased calls to "police our own." (Perhaps people forget that it was a Senegalese Muslim immigrant by the name of Aliou Niasse responsible for tipping off the NYPD to the burning vehicle.)   But the overwhelming response to this averted tragedy amongst Pakistani Muslim Americans was simple: anger, disgust, outrage. Just like any other American.     (Wajahat Ali is the author of "The Domestic Crusaders," a play about Muslim Pakistani Americans that will be published by McSweeney's in the Fall 2010. He blogs at Goatmilk.)   http://mobile.salon.com/mwt/feature/2010/05/06/pakistani_terrorist_personal_essay/index.html   From saheliwomen at gmail.com Tue May 11 23:09:04 2010 From: saheliwomen at gmail.com (Saheli Women) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 23:09:04 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Protest against honour crimes on Saturday 15 May at 5 pm in Central Market, Lajpat Nagar PLEASE JOIN US! Message-ID: *“Babli and Manoj Killed”….. “Nirupama killed”…… “khap panchyat diktat out against couple”...“couple seek police protection”…. * *We have to say NO to these crimes justified in the name of 'honour'!* *We have to assert our right to choose our own partners irrespective of caste, class, religion, ethnicity or gender!* On a daily basis one hears these kind of news about killings in the name of 'honour' and diktats against couples whose crime seems to be to love a person of another caste or the same village. On the one hand we have the Khap Panchayats who are exercising power and control through various diktats and valorising the murder of young couples and on the other there are family members who are party to killing their own daughters or pushing them to suicide to protect so called family honour. These incidents have spread in an aggressive way and are becoming more widespread not only in rural areas but in big cities and among people of all classes and castes. The silence of the Government against the diktats of the Khap Panchayats, which deny fundamental rights guaranteed in the Indian Constitution, indicates the reluctance of the state machinery to uphold the rights of young men and women. We are also shocked by the active support to the Khaps given often by State governments, political leaders, the local judiciary and police. We have already got endorsements from about 200 groups/individuals for letters to Chief Ministers of Haryana, Delhi, UP and Rajasthan demanding action against khap leaders and instituting inquiry into incidents of 'honour killings'. We invite you to a protest to condemn these killings and to ask the Government to protect the fundamental rights of the citizens as laid down in the Constitution. *Please bring your placards and banners. You are also welcome to join us in the Saheli office on the 15th of May at 2 pm where we will be making placards.* Date: Saturday, 15th May 2010 at 5 pm Venue: Central Market, Lajpat Nagar Meeting point: 3Cs Cinema Hall Let’s get together to raise our voice, in hope that a time comes when we don't open the newspapers to news about crimes against young people in the name of ‘honour’. Spread the word and join us. In solidarity, Saheli Please forward this mail to all your friends! -- Saheli Women's Resource Centre Above Unit 105-108 Defence Colony Flyover Market New Delhi 100 024 From c.anupam at gmail.com Wed May 12 09:33:35 2010 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 09:33:35 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] "Oppose Draconian UAPA" In-Reply-To: References: <109187.9346.qm@web30603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: what you call prostitution is a mockery of your understanding about the indigenous people who have been over the years neglected. it is prostitution for you because you, like others living far in the cities in your comfortable havens have to be told that indigenous communities in these areas have nobody to listen to their plight. they have no audience. the state, its constituents have been deaf for so many years now, that their plight needs to sold to you in form of writings which unfortunately bears the blood stains of a fresh conflict between the state forces and the naxals. you buy them that's why these writings remind you of prostitution. now the state wants to mainstream these indigenous communities. one needs to be consistently reminded that one does not belong to the mainstream and therefore needs to be mainstreamed as if one is affected by some disease. On Tue, May 11, 2010 at 6:33 PM, Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi < rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com> wrote: > Freedom and right to express ones thoughts are being used by the naxal > sympathisers to subvert democratic rule of the nation, not that this form > of > rule is perfect and without flaws, but the violent means instead of ballot > and use of force to subvert the rule of laws is the issue with naxalism. > the > naxal sympathisers with romance in their thoughts do not know the agenda of > the naxal leadership of trying to be seats of power to be rulers, the > cadres > sacrificing, leaders living in hiding with all comforts, intellectuals > selling/ nay prostituting their intellect for naxalism .! > > > > On Sat, May 8, 2010 at 1:29 PM, Rahul Pandita >wrote: > > > Like Che said, if you distribute food to the poor, you are dubbed a > saint. > > So, we have a Kripalu Maharaj calling people in U.P. to his ashram for a > > steel tumbler and a towel. To manage the crowds, his securitymen throw > water > > aka Delhi Police style on the crowd resulting in stampede. But he is > still a > > saint. > > > > But if you ask why the poor don't have food then you are a communist. Or, > > as it happens now, a Maoist. That is not all. If you a Bhagat Singh photo > on > > your desk, you'll be put in under the UAPA. If you have a book on mining > on > > your shelf, you'll be in under the UAPA. If you raise questions over why > 60 > > lakh people need to be displaced for CWG in delhi, you'll be in under the > > UAPA. If you go visit a Naxal ideologue in the prison in the capacity of > a > > journalist, you'll be in under the UAPA. > > > > These are dark times, my dear friends. And as that old woman says in > > Sanjay's film: "What can one say about the dark times." > > > > > > Rahul Pandita www.sanitysucks.blogspot.com Mobile: 9818088664 > > > > > > --- On Sat, 8/5/10, Sanjay Kak wrote: > > > > > From: Sanjay Kak > > > Subject: [Reader-list] "Oppose Draconian UAPA" > > > To: "Sarai Reader List" > > > Date: Saturday, 8 May, 2010, 11:52 > > > Here is a Press Release in connection > > > with the latest from the > > > Ministry of Home Affairs > > > Best > > > > > > Sanjay Kak > > > > > > ----------------------- > > > > > > Press release > > > > > > Coordination of Democratic Rights Organizations, CDRO > > > > > > Oppose Draconian UAPA > > > > > > 7th May 2010 > > > > > > The most recent alert (regarding use of section 39, UAPA) > > > issued by > > > the government in so called ‘public interest’ has > > > brought out in the > > > open what had so far been implicit in its anti-Maoist > > > policy. The > > > purpose of the circular is to intimidate voices of protests > > > and > > > dissent over government policies, particularly Operation > > > Green Hunt. > > > The statement criminalizes dissent and makes a mockery of > > > the spirit > > > of critical inquiry which is at the foundation of a strong > > > democracy. > > > As members of civil rights groups we consider the statement > > > as an > > > attack on civil society and reminiscent of the Emergency > > > era. > > > > > > The contents of the circular show complete disregard of the > > > concerns > > > expressed by Supreme Court when it rebuked the Chhattisgarh > > > government > > > for labelling human rights activists and legitimate > > > activities as > > > ‘sympathetic’ to ‘naxals’, or the more recent > > > concerns expressed by > > > the Chief Justice over the government’s war against its > > > own people. It > > > is not surprising that the government has also chosen to > > > ignore the > > > ‘sympathetic’ and undoubtedly saner voices in its own > > > ranks, which > > > have a different perspective on addressing the problem. > > > > > > We condemn the government’s threat to use extraordinary > > > draconian laws > > > such as UAPA to constrain freedom of expression and free > > > and informed > > > debate on issues which are of crucial importance for the > > > country. We > > > further condemn the government for targeting political and > > > civil > > > rights groups who are doing no more than carrying out their > > > democratic > > > responsibility of ensuring equal protection of the > > > Constitution to all > > > sections of society. > > > > > > Signed by: > > > > > > Association for Democratic Rights (AFDR, Punjab); Andhra > > > Pradesh Civil > > > Liberties Committee (APCLC, Andhra Pradesh); Association > > > for > > > Protection of Democratic Rights (APDR, West Bengal); Bandi > > > Mukti > > > Committee (West Bengal); Committee for Protection of > > > Democratic Rights > > > (CPDR, Nagpur); Coordination of Human Rights (COHR, > > > Manipur); Campaign > > > for Peace and Democracy in Manipur (CPDM, Delhi); Human > > > Rights Forum > > > (HRF, Andhra Pradesh); Lokshahi Hak Sangathana (LHS, > > > Maharashtra); > > > Manab Adhikar Sangram Samiti (MASS, Assam); Naga People’s > > > Movement for > > > Human Rights (NPMHR); Organization for Protection of > > > Democratic Rights > > > (OPDR, Andhra Pradesh); People’s Committee for Human > > > Rights (PCHR, > > > Jammu and Kashmir); People’s Democratic Forum (PDF, > > > Karnataka); > > > People’s Union for Civil Liberties (PUCL, National); > > > PUCL > > > (Chhattisgarh); PUCL (Jharkhand); PUCL (Nagpur); PUCL > > > (Rajasthan); > > > People’s Union for Democratic Rights (PUDR, Delhi); > > > People’s Union for > > > Human Rights (PUHR, Haryana) > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > > > city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > with subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > -- > Rajen. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From shuddha at sarai.net Wed May 12 09:42:24 2010 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 09:42:24 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] "Oppose Draconian UAPA" In-Reply-To: References: <109187.9346.qm@web30603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <834F0B90-61A3-4CE3-90B0-7E246677BF54@sarai.net> Dear All, What's wrong with prostitution? It's just another line of work. If the honest toil of the mind or the limbs is seen as a contribution to the world, then why should the honest toil of sex work be any different? If it is coerced, of course it is wrong, just as coerced labour of any kind is wrong. Let's not insult sex workers who work just as hard as you or me. I feel that neither 'prostitute' nor 'intellectual' should be seen as derogatory or pejorative words. best Shuddha On 12-May-10, at 9:33 AM, anupam chakravartty wrote: > what you call prostitution is a mockery of your understanding about > the > indigenous people who have been over the years neglected. it is > prostitution > for you because you, like others living far in the cities in your > comfortable havens have to be told that indigenous communities in > these > areas have nobody to listen to their plight. they have no audience. > the > state, its constituents have been deaf for so many years now, that > their > plight needs to sold to you in form of writings which unfortunately > bears > the blood stains of a fresh conflict between the state forces and the > naxals. you buy them that's why these writings remind you of > prostitution. > > now the state wants to mainstream these indigenous communities. one > needs to > be consistently reminded that one does not belong to the mainstream > and > therefore needs to be mainstreamed as if one is affected by some > disease. > > > > On Tue, May 11, 2010 at 6:33 PM, Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi < > rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com> wrote: > >> Freedom and right to express ones thoughts are being used by the >> naxal >> sympathisers to subvert democratic rule of the nation, not that >> this form >> of >> rule is perfect and without flaws, but the violent means instead >> of ballot >> and use of force to subvert the rule of laws is the issue with >> naxalism. >> the >> naxal sympathisers with romance in their thoughts do not know the >> agenda of >> the naxal leadership of trying to be seats of power to be rulers, the >> cadres >> sacrificing, leaders living in hiding with all comforts, >> intellectuals >> selling/ nay prostituting their intellect for naxalism .! >> >> >> >> On Sat, May 8, 2010 at 1:29 PM, Rahul Pandita >> wrote: >> >>> Like Che said, if you distribute food to the poor, you are dubbed a >> saint. >>> So, we have a Kripalu Maharaj calling people in U.P. to his >>> ashram for a >>> steel tumbler and a towel. To manage the crowds, his securitymen >>> throw >> water >>> aka Delhi Police style on the crowd resulting in stampede. But he is >> still a >>> saint. >>> >>> But if you ask why the poor don't have food then you are a >>> communist. Or, >>> as it happens now, a Maoist. That is not all. If you a Bhagat >>> Singh photo >> on >>> your desk, you'll be put in under the UAPA. If you have a book on >>> mining >> on >>> your shelf, you'll be in under the UAPA. If you raise questions >>> over why >> 60 >>> lakh people need to be displaced for CWG in delhi, you'll be in >>> under the >>> UAPA. If you go visit a Naxal ideologue in the prison in the >>> capacity of >> a >>> journalist, you'll be in under the UAPA. >>> >>> These are dark times, my dear friends. And as that old woman says in >>> Sanjay's film: "What can one say about the dark times." >>> >>> >>> Rahul Pandita www.sanitysucks.blogspot.com Mobile: 9818088664 >>> >>> >>> --- On Sat, 8/5/10, Sanjay Kak wrote: >>> >>>> From: Sanjay Kak >>>> Subject: [Reader-list] "Oppose Draconian UAPA" >>>> To: "Sarai Reader List" >>>> Date: Saturday, 8 May, 2010, 11:52 >>>> Here is a Press Release in connection >>>> with the latest from the >>>> Ministry of Home Affairs >>>> Best >>>> >>>> Sanjay Kak >>>> >>>> ----------------------- >>>> >>>> Press release >>>> >>>> Coordination of Democratic Rights Organizations, CDRO >>>> >>>> Oppose Draconian UAPA >>>> >>>> 7th May 2010 >>>> >>>> The most recent alert (regarding use of section 39, UAPA) >>>> issued by >>>> the government in so called ‘public interest’ has >>>> brought out in the >>>> open what had so far been implicit in its anti-Maoist >>>> policy. The >>>> purpose of the circular is to intimidate voices of protests >>>> and >>>> dissent over government policies, particularly Operation >>>> Green Hunt. >>>> The statement criminalizes dissent and makes a mockery of >>>> the spirit >>>> of critical inquiry which is at the foundation of a strong >>>> democracy. >>>> As members of civil rights groups we consider the statement >>>> as an >>>> attack on civil society and reminiscent of the Emergency >>>> era. >>>> >>>> The contents of the circular show complete disregard of the >>>> concerns >>>> expressed by Supreme Court when it rebuked the Chhattisgarh >>>> government >>>> for labelling human rights activists and legitimate >>>> activities as >>>> ‘sympathetic’ to ‘naxals’, or the more recent >>>> concerns expressed by >>>> the Chief Justice over the government’s war against its >>>> own people. It >>>> is not surprising that the government has also chosen to >>>> ignore the >>>> ‘sympathetic’ and undoubtedly saner voices in its own >>>> ranks, which >>>> have a different perspective on addressing the problem. >>>> >>>> We condemn the government’s threat to use extraordinary >>>> draconian laws >>>> such as UAPA to constrain freedom of expression and free >>>> and informed >>>> debate on issues which are of crucial importance for the >>>> country. We >>>> further condemn the government for targeting political and >>>> civil >>>> rights groups who are doing no more than carrying out their >>>> democratic >>>> responsibility of ensuring equal protection of the >>>> Constitution to all >>>> sections of society. >>>> >>>> Signed by: >>>> >>>> Association for Democratic Rights (AFDR, Punjab); Andhra >>>> Pradesh Civil >>>> Liberties Committee (APCLC, Andhra Pradesh); Association >>>> for >>>> Protection of Democratic Rights (APDR, West Bengal); Bandi >>>> Mukti >>>> Committee (West Bengal); Committee for Protection of >>>> Democratic Rights >>>> (CPDR, Nagpur); Coordination of Human Rights (COHR, >>>> Manipur); Campaign >>>> for Peace and Democracy in Manipur (CPDM, Delhi); Human >>>> Rights Forum >>>> (HRF, Andhra Pradesh); Lokshahi Hak Sangathana (LHS, >>>> Maharashtra); >>>> Manab Adhikar Sangram Samiti (MASS, Assam); Naga People’s >>>> Movement for >>>> Human Rights (NPMHR); Organization for Protection of >>>> Democratic Rights >>>> (OPDR, Andhra Pradesh); People’s Committee for Human >>>> Rights (PCHR, >>>> Jammu and Kashmir); People’s Democratic Forum (PDF, >>>> Karnataka); >>>> People’s Union for Civil Liberties (PUCL, National); >>>> PUCL >>>> (Chhattisgarh); PUCL (Jharkhand); PUCL (Nagpur); PUCL >>>> (Rajasthan); >>>> People’s Union for Democratic Rights (PUDR, Delhi); >>>> People’s Union for >>>> Human Rights (PUHR, Haryana) >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the >>>> city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >>>> with subscribe in the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: >>> >>> >>> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Rajen. >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From shashidhar at butterfliesindia.org Wed May 12 12:53:30 2010 From: shashidhar at butterfliesindia.org (Shashidhar) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 12:53:30 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] UID CARD BENEFIT In-Reply-To: <4F94254D468349328F2931A67AD5CF1B@butterfliesdelhi.local> References: <000c01caef93$1d829ad0$5887d070$@in> <000301caf033$2c3f8880$84be9980$@in> <000f01caf065$361fd760$a25f8620$@in> <37D87DBF6CB64AA2B4E82E6DE34FE64F@butterfliesdelhi.local> <002901caf0fb$271beec0$7553cc40$@butterfliesindia.org> <4F94254D468349328F2931A67AD5CF1B@butterfliesdelhi.local> Message-ID: <001901caf1a4$05845690$108d03b0$@butterfliesindia.org> Dear Taha, If you look at the reference material on the net UID project was sanctioned some 200 odd crores last year, and they have been promised some 1900 crores this year, I do not where the 1.5 lakh crore figure comes from. I do not think people have greatly different notions about identity you ask any one for his identity he will start by giving you his name, age, education, place of origin, family tree, lineage, linguistic abilities, hobbies, may be some caste and daba kuchla stuff. The uid is the reference point for services, it gives a point of reference for Indian citizen, there already are so many uid's in place, ration cards, passports, DL, Now defunct SSI, Persons of Indian origin. One of the charters of the UID project is a diagnosis of all such existing measures and there have been a lot of consultations. Tell you brother it is always better to be doing something than not doing anything and keep on deliberating. Or may be we are missing the point of your discussion completely. Shashidhar -----Original Message----- From: Taha Mehmood [mailto:2tahamehmood at googlemail.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2010 6:01 PM To: Shashidhar Cc: Bipin Trivedi; sarai-list Subject: Re: [Reader-list] UID CARD BENEFIT Dear Bipin and Shahidhar, Thank you for your responses. Enumeration is fine with me. You count a person, you attach a figure. Simple and straightforward. Any act of governance needs that. I do not have a problem with it. Identity is a tricky issue. It's a fuzzy issue. The word is fuzzy. Is it not vague? Does it not mean many things? Can it be be categorized by a singular notion? The GOI is transferring 1.5 Lakh crore rupees in the name of identity. And Bipin I do not know who can define a unit of measurement of identity. I am not interested in who. I am not bothered by who. Who can be tom, dick or harry or a sita or a gita or ram or a rahim for all I care. I am interested in How and Why and What. So I would be glad if you could forgo who and tell me how identity can be measured, by what means and why those means represent a true measurement of a person's identity? Please allow me explain what I mean- If the pharmacist makes a drug without going into the nature of what constitutes the elements of that drug, what does that drug do, what illness can it alleviate and gives that drug to a doctor and the doctor prescribes that drug to you without diagnosing you, without verifying the nature of your illness and without establishing whether this drug is the only drug amongst all the drugs which are available in a market which can alleviate your illness. Will you take that drug Bipin? Simply because a doctor of medicine has given it to you? Will you be so charmed by the packaging of the drug that you will suspend doubt? Will you be so in awe of man in white clothes that you will give in because the name tag in front of his room says MD MBBS? Or will you allow doubt to enter, Bipin? Think! In the similar manner, can we not think about the people of India as a body? Are we not told that some parts of our body are getting weak because they are not nourished? Are we not prescribed a medicine in the name of UID? Is it not our responsibility to doubt, both as individuals and as a collective, to assess whether such a drug is good or not? Because if it a bad drug it might effect the life of our entire body which includes you and me Bipin. Who would we blame then, Bipin. Governments come and go. That's the nature of governance. But we are here to stay. That's the nature of people. UID is build on the idea of identity. Identity is a fuzzy notion. It is a vague idea. It means many things to many people. It might mean one thing to many people. It might also mean many things to one person. Or it might mean nothing to no one. or every thing to every one. In every case the meaning, the nature of identity is inconsistent. Should we not allow this inconsistency in meaning of identity to remain? Warm regards Taha From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed May 12 14:49:47 2010 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 02:19:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] "Internet Hindus and Madrasa Muslims" Message-ID: <787408.41925.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> "Internet Hindus and Madrasa Muslims"   Amit Varma Thu, May 6 08:58 AM   A few days ago, a Delhi newspaper called me up to ask for a quote on a controversy that had begun, as any respectable controversy these days should begin, on Twitter.   Sagarika Ghosh, allegedly harrassed by right-wing Hindutva types, had unleashed a series of tweets against what she termed 'Internet Hindus'. (1, 2, 3, 4, 5.) The phrase caught on and led to much outrage from many bloggers, a spirited takedown of 'the Hindutva fringe' by my fellow Yahoo! columnist Ashok Malik, and a vehement defence of it by Kanchan Gupta.   I was baffled by the controversy. Firstly, the phrase itself seemed ridiculous to me, and I suspect that all the main protagonists using that term would have defined it differently. Secondly, I didn't see what all of them were getting het up about to begin with. Ghose was over-reacting to criticism; the rest were losing their sleep over someone's tweets: how noob of them.   If Ghose was, indeed, bothered by trolls, she would have done well to keep in mind the old jungle saying, 'Never wrestle with a pig. You get dirty and the pig enjoys it.' The internet empowers loonies of all kinds by giving them a megaphone -- but no one is forced to listen to them. The noise-to-signal ratio is way out of whack on the net (Sturgeon's Law), and any smart internet veteran will tell you that to keep your sanity, you need to ignore the noise. Ghose, poor thing, had tried to engage with it.   We all know that people are more extreme on the net than they are in real life. The radical Hindutva dude who wants to nuke Pakistan on the net will, in the real world, sit meekly at Cafe Coffee Day arguing the relative merits of Atif Aslam and Rahat Fateh Ali Khan. A commonly cited reason for this is the anonymity that the internet gives you. You get power without responsibility, and can say whatever you want without the fear of consequences. (This explains why so many comment trolls are anonymous or pseudonymous.)   But anonymity is just a small part of the story. Many people who take extreme positions on the internet do so under their real names. What's more, they hold these positions in the offline world as well, though they probably didn't believe in them so vehemently before they got online. What's going on here?   I got an insight into this a while ago when I read a book named On Rumours by Cass Sunstein. In it, Sunstein cites an experiment he carried out with a couple of colleagues in Colorado in the USA in 2005. These guys gathered 60 subjects and split them into ten groups of six people each. The experiment was designed so that each group was homogeneous and fit a particular profile. Half the groups were liberal; the others were conservative.   At the start of the experiment, each participant was asked a series of hot button questions, including one on that most polarising of topics, global warming. Their anonymous answers were noted down. Then they went into a room with a group of like-minded people and discussed those issues. Fifteen minutes after the group discussion ended, they were again asked the same set of questions, anonymously and one by one.   Here's how Sunstein summarised the results in his book: "In almost every group, members ended up holding more extreme positions after they spoke with one another. [...] Aside from increasing extremism, the experiment had an independent effect: it made both liberal and conservative groups significantly more homogeneous -- and thus squelched diversity. [...] Moreover, the rift between liberals and conservatives widened as a result of discussing."   This phenomenon is called Group Polarization. Sunstein defines it thus: "When like-minded people deliberate, they typically end up adopting a more extreme position in line with their pre-deliberation inclinations."   This explains why the internet is such a polarised space. Let us say that someone believes, to pick an especially ludicrous conspiracy theory, that Israel knew about the 9/11 attacks in advance, and warned Jews who worked at the WTC not to go to work that day. In a relatively open society like the US or India, you're unlikely to find too many people in your immediate circle of friends and acquaintances who would believe this. But on the internet, which serves the long tail of beliefs, you will find many like-minded people. There will be websites validating your view and bulletin boards full of kindred souls. The confirmation bias will also kick in, and you will ignore any potential source of disagreement, and hang around with your own kind. Information cascades will be in play, as your conviction will harden, and the vehemence with which you state your views will increase.   As Sunstein concluded in a working paper he wrote on group polarisation, it is "plausible to speculate that the Internet may be serving, for many, as a breeding group for extremism."   ****   Such echo chambers don't exist merely on the internet, of course. Societies that aren't open, including 'illiberal democracies', to use Fareed Zakaria's phrase, also serve as a breeding ground for extremism. To look at nearby examples from Pakistan, the following could well be the condensed biography of the median Lashkar or Taliban terrorist: He was born in a poor family, and the only education he received was in a Madrasa, which was essentially a place of indoctrination; he came of age thinking of America and India as evil, infidel lands, and of himself as an underdog whose duty was to fight a righteous battle; he had little or no exposure to conflicting views, or even to cultural products from outside his immediate environment; and he was probably sexually repressed, which increased his resentment.   Also, he was surrounded by people just like him. So really, there is no other belief system he could have in such a closed environment. I suspect if you or I were in his place, we'd pick up a gun too. How on earth would we know better?   This is not a justification for his actions. When it comes to terrorism, I am a hawk. I believe we should fight terrorists and terrorist groups without mercy or hesitation, and destroy the infrastructure that supports them. This is necessary -- but not sufficient. It would tackle the symptoms, but not the disease itself.   Terrorism in Pakistan is enhanced by a structural problem: their society isn't open enough, diverse enough, and prosperous enough. As long as this remains the case, echo chambers will abound, and the supply of extremists will not dry up. What can we do about this?   To begin with, it would help if we didn't talk about Pakistan as if it was one monolithic entity. Just because 'they' attacked us on 26/11 does not mean we prevent 'their' musicians or cricketers from coming to India -- we are talking of different creatures here, which are opposed to each other.   Broadly, and with the risk of simplifying, I see three distinct kinds of forces in Pakistan. One, the jehadi groups, which grow larger and more extreme because of self-perpetuating feedback loops, but are by no means the whole country. Two, the military establishment, whose incentives, as I wrote in a column three years ago, are aligned towards continuing the conflict with India. They have supported the jehadis, and have waged proxy wars through them, but are now under pressure to withdraw this support. And three, civil society, which wants what people everywhere want: peace, prosperity and a good future for themselves and their children. This, I believe, is most of Pakistan.   The stronger civil society gets, the weaker the support for extremism, and the more tenuous the military's hold on the country. This is why I support increased trade and cultural exchanges with Pakistan (which is mutually beneficial anyway, as it's a positive-sum game). I don't think it's contradictory to take a hard line towards Pakistan's terrorist infrastructure and a soft line towards their artists and businessmen. Both have the same end in mind.   I am not suggesting that this would be a panacea. Not all terrorists come from repressive societies or poor backgrounds, and extremism will always be with us. But it would reduce the amount of polarisation that takes place -- and hey, some of it might even shift to the internet. Then the Internet Hindus can fight the Online Muslims, and Sagarika Ghose can crawl up in a foetal position under her desk.   ****   Lest my column be misinterpreted, let me state the obvious by saying that I am not implying any equivalence between 'Internet Hindus', whoever they are, who may cause Ghose to tear out her hair but haven't otherwise caused any physical harm to anyone, and the jehadis of the Lashkar and the Taliban. I have mentioned them here only in the context of the mechanics of polarisation. There is no question who I would rather have lunch with.   Also, I would request anyone who wishes to coin more such terms to at least alliterate. Blogging Buddhists and Joomla Jains sound far more musical than Internet Hindus, if a little more niche. No?   (Amit Varma, the winner of the 2007 Bastiat Prize for Journalism, is the author of the bestselling novel My Friend Sancho. He writes the popular blog, India Uncut. You can follow him on Twitter here. ( http://twitter.com/amitvarma ) )   http://in.news.yahoo.com/256/20100506/1691/top-internet-hindus-and-madrasa-muslims.html   From virtuallyme at gmail.com Wed May 12 14:53:52 2010 From: virtuallyme at gmail.com (Rohan DSouza) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 14:53:52 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: URGENT: One person killed in Chandia shooting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: surya Date: Wed, May 12, 2010 at 1:28 PM Subject: Fwd: URGENT: One person killed in Chandia shooting To: Rohan DSouza , Asit Lakshman Jamud, aged between 50-55, has been killed in the police firing at Chandia today while two women have been seriously injured. One of the women, Jema, aged 32 and unmarried has been seriously injured with reports indicating that 6 bullets have hit her waist. The other woman Basanti Bankiri, aged 30, is married and has 4 children. Her legs are injured. The police and media is trying to manipulate the case. One TV channel first said the man has committed suicide and now it is not mentioning his death. Police is spreading false information... Sources say most local media persons had been taken to Puri by Tata on Sunday where a deal was made to manipulate news from Kalinga Nagar which is evident now... Lakshman Jamuda's body has been taken by the police for post mortem and they are trying to fudge the report... On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 11:11 AM, surya wrote: > Minutes after I sent out the last mail news came in that the women of > Chandia bravely resisted all attempts to demolish the houses built on > Anabadi land. The police first lathi charged at the women and then when they > refused to be scared they were shot at, most likely with rubber bullets and > plastic pellets. The people have taken refuge from the bullets (steel, > plastic, rubber or whatever they are) in the nearby Baligotha forest. Some > of them are trapped in the village where the police is terrorising them. > There is no clear confirmation of the number of people injured as everybody > is scattered and yet to assemble at one place. > > > On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 10:04 AM, surya wrote: > >> *Kalinga Nagar: Chandia people's anger is reaching the tipping point as >> all houses on Anabadi land are threatened to be demolished >> * >> 'Goondaism' is the real ideology of the Govt in Kalinga Nagar. At 7.30 AM >> Chandia village was quiet but prepared for yet another long day of >> repression & humiliation. By 9 AM police forces arrived to carry on with the >> demolition because the real agenda of this mission is yet to be >> accomplished, i.e. to provoke the people. And it seems the masterminds of >> repression are losing their patience because in what seems to be a planned >> strategy to push the people towards a final showdown, the police is trying >> all sorts of tricks to start a fight. Firstly they bullied the people into >> not assembling where they have been doing so since day before yesterday >> because the police forces have decided to assemble at that particular place. >> Then people from neighboring villages like Gobarghati and Baligotha were on >> their way to stand by Chandia people but the police stopped them midway. And >> then the final part of the strategy was played out as houses of people who >> have not been displaced were targeted for demolition, and ultimately it was >> declared that all houses not having record of rights ((which tribal people >> rarely have) would be demolished. The simmering anger of the people has >> reached a boiling point today. They have been pushed to the point of >> desperation and the blame for any untoward eventuality will not rest >> entirely on the proponents of State goondaism but also on the cowardly >> silence of the opposition parties and the media. >> >> Chief Minister Orissa: Fax - 0674-2590833, Tel: 0674-2401100(office), >> 0674-2590299 (residence) >> Collector, Jajpur: 06728-222001 (O) 06728-222330 (R) 06728-222087 (F) >> SP, Jajpur - 06726-240112 (O) 06726-240104 (F) 06726-240100 (R >> >> >> On Tue, May 11, 2010 at 2:01 PM, surya wrote: >> >>> In the name of demolishing houses of displaced persons, the resisting >>> villagers of Chandia are being now terrorised almost regularly by large >>> contingents of police forces. Villagers believe that the houses are being >>> demolished slowly so that the police can keep coming back to the village to >>> provoke them and find a reason to attack them. Since yesterday some eight >>> odd houses are being demolished at a snail's pace while Police forces keep >>> an eye for the slightest pretext to lash out at the resisting villagers. In >>> yesterday's lathi charge Garkha Barla sustained serious injuries in his >>> limbs and lower back. He has returned to Chandia today. >>> >>> >>> Meanwhile heavy police deployment is being planned around the villages >>> opposing the POSCO steel plant. Sources say that a high-level meeting was >>> held yesterday at Paradip where it was decided that at least 8 platoons >>> would be mobilised today to disrupt the protest sit-in at Balitutha where >>> 300-350 villagers have been protesting every day since 26 January. It is >>> being feared that within the next 2 days the Govt is planning on a major >>> Police offensive in the area with police already being strategically >>> deployed around the resistance villages. >>> >>> >>> Sources say that one of the masterminds behind the Police action in >>> Kalinga Nagar as well as Jagatsinghpur is the tainted I.A.S. officer >>> Priyabrata Patnaik, MD of IDCO and the former Nodal Officer for the POSCO >>> project who had been relieved from all charges for almost 2 years for >>> alleged involvement in a high profile murder case. He is the same person who >>> had made the infamous statement to media, 3 years when goons had hurled >>> bombs at peaceful women protestors at Bailtutha, that "the people have been >>> taught a lesson and will not dare to raise their voice again. It seems he >>> has been brought back to teach the people some more lessons in repression. >>> >>> >>> And while people of Kalinga Nagar and Jagatsingpur are taught many >>> lessons there seems to be not even a whimper of protest from the opposition >>> parties. Their silence is rather a sign of support for the corporate >>> friendly CM of Orissa, Naveen Patnaik and that they are complicit in this >>> corporate assault on people's land, forest and water. >>> >>> On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 10:23 AM, surya wrote: >>> >>>> Kalinga Nagar: Police Lathi charges in Chandia village today >>>> >>>> On the 6th of May, the large contingent of police had stayed out of >>>> Chandia village when villagers strongly opposed them from entering the >>>> village (see below) and only a small group was allowed to enter the village >>>> and demolish the displaced people's houses. There was no untoward incident >>>> reported that day but four days later a large contingent of armed security >>>> forces arrived again today morning to demolish more houses of the displaced. >>>> Villagers opposed this as they had struck a deal on the 6th that all >>>> demolition jobs were to be done with by the end of that day. Then the police >>>> resorted to lathi charge at a crowd made of men, women and children. Many >>>> people have sustained injuries and one Garkha Barla, aged between 30-35, has >>>> been seriously injured and taken to a hospital by the police. The demolition >>>> has begun and the village is besieged by fear of more violence by the >>>> Police. >>>> >>>> Will update when more information is available. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 10:05 AM, surya wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> URGENT: SAVE CHANDIA! >>>>> >>>>> Today morning a large contingent of armed forces have reached Chandia >>>>> village where people have threatened to commit mass suicide if they are >>>>> forced out. Despite yesterday's meeting where thousands of people gathered >>>>> to protest against forceful land acquisition the Govt has responded to the >>>>> people by sending armed forces again. Yesterday the leaders of the Bisthapan >>>>> Birodhi Jan Manch had clearly stated that they were not protesting against >>>>> any particular company or industry but against the loss of their land and >>>>> livelihood. Please appeal to the Chief Minister of Orissa to stop this cruel >>>>> treatment of the people and pushing them towards mass suicide. >>>>> >>>>> Chief Minister Orissa: Fax - 0674-2590833 >>>>> Tel: 0674-2401100(office), 0674-2590299 (residence) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Monthly Tata Sponsored Devastation of Baligotha village by Govt? >>>>> 29 April 2010 >>>>> >>>>> Today, exactly a month after the savage attack on 30 March by armed >>>>> forces and Tata goons, a large contingent of armed forces arrived again at >>>>> Baligotha village alongwith some JCB machines. Then they unleashed another >>>>> round of devastation upon the village that is yet to recover from the last >>>>> attack and has also lost two villagers to diseases as they have been >>>>> cordoned off by Tata goons and the Police. Today, the houses of Purna >>>>> Banara, Nitendra Palia, Jema Hessa and Tuna Palia was razed to the ground. >>>>> Also Baligotha's community house and Litu Banara's cattle-shed were >>>>> demolished. Nitendra Palia has a widowed sister and child who have been >>>>> unwell for several days and the villagers fear the two will die within a day >>>>> or so. Now they cannot even die in peace with their home completely >>>>> demolished. The rest too are now without a roof on their head. >>>>> >>>>> This is part of the demolition drive that the administration started >>>>> around the 18th of this month after pro-Tata groups staged protests (around >>>>> 3-4 April '10) in front of Jajpur ADM's office demanding that the belongings >>>>> of the displaced people be brought from their villages. The District >>>>> Magistrate had then ordered for heavy police deployment for protection of >>>>> the displaced people to go back to their villages and collect their >>>>> belongings and demolish their houses. In a newspaper notice the DM warned >>>>> that protestors would not be spared. But this was used as a pretext to >>>>> demolish homes of people refusing displacement. >>>>> >>>>> From Gadapur to Gobarghati the police was used to terrorise villagers >>>>> and break houses of key members of the Bisthapan BIrodhi Jan Manch like Noti >>>>> Angarai of Gobarghati and people refusing displacement. In Kalamatia village >>>>> at least 2 houses of people yet to be displaced was demolished, in >>>>> Champakoila it was at least 3 houses, in Bandargadia it was 1, in Gobarghati >>>>> it was 2, so on and so forth. Community houses of Baiduburi & Champakoila >>>>> alongwith Baligotha have been demolished. Altogether at least 20 houses have >>>>> been forcefully demolished despite the fact that the Collector had assured >>>>> that the whole exercise was just for the displaced to collect their >>>>> belongings. The demolition of people not displaced, community houses, >>>>> cattle-shed and even tombs is blatant evidence of the Govt's real >>>>> intentions. >>>>> >>>>> A month long wave of repression that still continues is a sign of the >>>>> times we live in and the shape of civil society. Leaders of opposition >>>>> parties are nowhere in the picture after being beaten & chased away by Tata >>>>> goons & BJD cadre. All along the media remains silent and its unclear if >>>>> they are mourning or if they have been gagged or they prefer to stay quiet. >>>>> Like all other pillars of democracy even media in Kalinga Nagar seems to >>>>> have crumbled. Of course there are a few individuals everywhere doing >>>>> whatever they can but will that save the tribals of Kalinga Nagar? >>>>> >>>>> Sources say the next target of the Govt is Chandia village and the >>>>> attack is likely to be executed tomorrow. It is also likely that Nitendra >>>>> Palia's widowed sister and child lose their lives by tomorrow with no >>>>> medical care available. >>>>> >>>>> Tata Steel Plant Foundation being laid with Mysterious Murders & >>>>> Forceful Demolitions in Kalinga Nagar >>>>> 23 April 2010 >>>>> >>>>> Late night yesterday villagers of Gadapur in Kalinga Nagar heard the >>>>> sound of a tractor approaching. They were alarmed it might be the police >>>>> again as in the last one week some 20-odd houses in the village have been >>>>> demolished by the District Administration & Industrial Development >>>>> Corporation of Orissa under heavy police deployment. The reason is that >>>>> these houses belong to people who agreed to be displaced for the Tata >>>>> factory and as per the Resettlement & Rehabilitation Policy they will not be >>>>> given new houses until their old houses are demolished. But the tractor >>>>> yesterday had come for some other reason and never reached the village. >>>>> Whatever the reason was the people manning the tractor were secretive about >>>>> it and didn't even switch on the headlamp. >>>>> >>>>> In the morning migrant workers from the nearby slums were collecting >>>>> firewood when they discovered a dead body near Gadapur. This is where the >>>>> villagers had noticed the tractor the night before. The deceased is >>>>> Rasananda Patra, about 40-years old and a Dalit trolley puller from the >>>>> Dalit hamlet Bandragadia located about 200-300 meters from Gadapur. >>>>> Bandragadia hamlet no longer exists since a few days ago as it has been >>>>> completely demolished. All 20 families living there had decided to be >>>>> displaced except for one Sarat Patra who had not agreed to displacement but >>>>> his house was nevertheless demolished. Sarat now lives in a makeshift leaf >>>>> hut he has built where his house once stood. Many people who are refusing >>>>> displacement have faced the same fate as Sarat. Yesterday, out of the 7 >>>>> houses demolished in Champakoila village 3 were forcefully demolished while >>>>> 2 days ago in Kalamatia village 2 houses were forcefully demolished. The >>>>> people are aware that this is a provocation from the administration and >>>>> therefore have not fallen prey yet. In the demolition drive today at >>>>> Gobarghati, Nati Angarai's house was forcefully demolished because he >>>>> happens to be a leader of the Bisthapan Birodhi Jan Manch (BBJM). BBJM is a >>>>> local non-violent & democratic tribal outfit opposing displacement for the >>>>> last 5 years despite 14 people being killed in a police shooting on 2nd Jan >>>>> 2006. >>>>> >>>>> The mystery of the cause of Rasananda's death might be solved after the >>>>> post-mortem but its hard to understand how his dead body reached Bandragadia >>>>> when he should have been in Tata's transit camp. Maybe the mystery is not >>>>> difficult to crack if one were to consider another murder case in the recent >>>>> past. That of Sridhar Soy, a contractor engaged in petty works for Tata at >>>>> Bhitar Manika. He was found dead in a forest with his motorbike and a case >>>>> was registered against the leaders of the BBJM. Many people randomly >>>>> arrested from markets, roads, hospitals and during the midnight raids on the >>>>> villages in the last few months have been implicated in this case. But they >>>>> mystery has hardly been solved. Sridhar Soy belongs to Masakia village >>>>> located some 7 km away from the controversial site of the Tata plant where >>>>> the Bisthapan Birodhi Jan Manch villages are located. There was no previous >>>>> altercation between BBJM & Sridhor Soy, not even any communication. Sridhar >>>>> Soy was a Tata contractor operating in a different area. How could villagers >>>>> of the BBJM whose movement is terribly restricted by the police, BJD cadre >>>>> and TATA goons manage to kill him and dispose his body in jungle far away >>>>> from their villages? Then why would BBJM activists resort to murder of a >>>>> contractor when they are involved in a movement of a different nature >>>>> raising issues related to land, livelihood and displacement? Would it not >>>>> weaken their movement that has received widespread support after the 2nd Jan >>>>> massacre? >>>>> >>>>> At the same time while several people have been arrested in the Sridhar >>>>> Soy murder case not a single arrest has been made in the Amin Banara murder >>>>> case or the Jogendra Jamuda attempt to murder case though Jogendra Jamuda >>>>> himself has been arrested. Jogendra was shot at while driving his motorbike >>>>> with his mother in front of the Kalinga Ngr police station by unknown >>>>> assailants. Amin Banara was killed in a shooting on 1st May '08 by Arbind >>>>> Singh, a Tata contractor and his associates. Arbind Singh was actually >>>>> gunning for Dabur Kalundia, a leader of the BBJM who has been targeted in >>>>> another attack in his village some months ago. Arbind Singh was arrested >>>>> that very day while he was trying to flee the area but released three months >>>>> later and sources say he is now cooling his heels in the air-conditioned >>>>> environs of Fortune Towers in Bhubaneswar. >>>>> >>>>> So the mystery of Rasananda's death last night might not be a mystery >>>>> at all judging the recent history of murder cases in Kalinga Nagar. >>>>> Villagers of Gadapur say that Rasananda was personally opposed to >>>>> displacement and had been coerced by others to leave Bandragadia. Why he was >>>>> killed and dumped in the land he never wanted to leave can evoke many wild >>>>> guesses but foul play seems for sure and that foul play has an uncanny >>>>> resemblance to the Sridhar Soy murder case. Amidst all this those >>>>> responsible to investigate and solve the mysteries are openly biased against >>>>> the BBJM. Sources say the SP of Jajpur has threatened the journalists of >>>>> three mainstream media houses to not go to the BBJM villages. The media >>>>> camps are also openly divided into pro-people and pro-Tata camps. Rumours >>>>> abound in the area that the SP has a stake in the industrialisation process >>>>> and that he has a relative who is complicit with the mining mafia in >>>>> Keonjhar. Though these are charges that might be impossible to prove the SP >>>>> himself has proved that he is capable of executing operations like 30 March >>>>> '10 where armed security forces and Tata goons unleashed a brutal >>>>> medieval-style invasion upon Baligotha village on the pretext of dealing >>>>> with opposition by the villagers for the construction of the Common Corridor >>>>> road project. They destroyed foodstocks, killed cattle, stole lifestock, >>>>> destroyed valuables, looted money, set property afire and injure at least 40 >>>>> people by firing rubber bullets and plastic pellets. After that the >>>>> villagers were denied any kind of medical assistance. Then there are many >>>>> more like the Jajpur SP involved in the rape of Kalinga Nagar who have a >>>>> tainted history like the MD of IDCO, Priyabrat Patnaik who was stripped of >>>>> all duties for a couple of years for being involved in a high profile murder >>>>> case in Bhubaneswar. He is known to be one of the masterminds behind the >>>>> attack on peaceful women protestors in the proposed POSCO site in 2007. >>>>> >>>>> Where does the common man's quest for justice feature here? What about >>>>> Sikur Kalundia, Balema Goipai and Ghanshyam Kalundia, all of whom died for >>>>> lack of medical attention because their villages have been cordoned off from >>>>> the rest of the world by police, Tata goons and BJD cadre?? Does that not >>>>> amount to murder?? And What happened to the judicial probe into the 2nd Jan >>>>> massacre that claimed 14 lives?? What happened to Amin Banara's murderers?? >>>>> Who attacked Jogendra Jamuda? Why were Dabur Kalundia's attackers released? >>>>> Who really killed Sridhar Soy?? And now, Rasananda, who killed him and >>>>> dumped him in Bandragadia while he should have been in the transit camp? >>>>> Will the BBJM be again framed?? It seems the foundations for the Tata Steel >>>>> project shall bury many such mysteries, deaths & demolished homes. The BBJM >>>>> though is gearing up to live upto its claim that they will rather die than >>>>> leave their land. >>>>> >>>>> Kalinga Nagar: Reign of Terror Continues >>>>> 5 April 2010 >>>>> >>>>> Today a man from Gobarghati village died from cerebral malaria as he >>>>> could not receive any medical aid on time due to the prevailing situation in >>>>> Kalinga Nagar where the police, BJD cadre and Tata goons are not allowing >>>>> anyone to come out or enter the villages resisting the Tata Steel factory >>>>> and the Common Corridor road. There is huge tension in the area after the >>>>> state BJD chief and India's former tribal affairs minister, Jual Oram was >>>>> attacked and his vehicles was vandalised. Two journalists, Amulya Pati and >>>>> Manas (sambad) were also attacked and their cameras were snatched away. The >>>>> journalists were rushed to the nearby hospital where they were given >>>>> first-aid and are safe now. A medical team carrying medicines and other >>>>> necessary supplies has just managed to enter the villages. Jual Oram is >>>>> adressing the press at 4.30PM in Bhubaneswar. While this is happening in >>>>> Kalinga Nagar, some journalist for ANI has decided to declare that peace has >>>>> been restored in the area. It is clear from the report itself that the >>>>> reporter doesn't even know anything about ground reality and is talking >>>>> about some imaginary town called Kalinga Nagar. K Ngr is the name of a huge >>>>> area landmarked as an industrial estate to setup steel projects. Then the >>>>> report also says that people have put off their protests... This particular >>>>> piece was posted 16 hours ago on the net and now it remains to be seen >>>>> whether how the ANI reporter will react to the news of the attack on the >>>>> scribes. Fellow journalists should take special note of this report that >>>>> misinformed the world and is most likely sponsored by Tata or the Govt while >>>>> two journalists are getting beaten up by goons. And to remind everyone, the >>>>> videographer who was shooting the police attack on 30 March was specially >>>>> targetted by the police and shot at with rubber bullets. The bottomline is >>>>> that every pillar of democracy has now been completely demolished in Kalinga >>>>> Nagar. >>>>> >>>>> URGENT: DEMOCRACY BUTCHERED IN KALINGA NAGAR AS POLICE FORCEFULLY >>>>> INVADES VILLAGES >>>>> 30 March 2010 >>>>> >>>>> On March 28,2010 the Bisthapan Birodhi Jan Manch leaders and villagers >>>>> welcomed Jajpur District Collector and had a discussion with him on the >>>>> controversial common corridor though they knew it very well the district >>>>> administration had other motives. After talks with activists of Bisthapan >>>>> Birodhi Jan Manch and more than 300 villagers the Collector assured them >>>>> that there would be no construction activity for the Common Corridor Road >>>>> till the matter is resolved through dialogue. But the administration has >>>>> gone back on its words. They started the work yesterday and made a huge >>>>> media publicity of the event to provoke people. In today's newspapers the SP >>>>> has said 'protestors will not be spared' and the Collector is saying >>>>> "construction of the road will happen at any cost." >>>>> >>>>> This gave the manch no other alternative but to protest. But today 29 >>>>> platoons of armed police with 60 officers and hundreds of BJD and Tata goons >>>>> reached the place of dispute. They first denied media any entry to the place >>>>> and the started attacking the peacful protesters. Many have been injured >>>>> including women and children as indisciminate rubber bullet firing and lathi >>>>> charge has taken place. They have entered the villages and unleashed a reign >>>>> of terror. The villagers have tremendous patience and are still resisting >>>>> peacefully. The area has become a war zone and more than a dozen people >>>>> including women and children have been seriously injured. >>>>> >>>>> This is being carried out under the supervision of IG Special >>>>> Operations, Arun Sadangi. Despite Sec 144 being imposed in the area large >>>>> number of Tata supporters, BJD cadre have assembled at the site and are >>>>> giving instructions to the police. All people who have a conscience must act >>>>> now as democracy in Kalinganagra is being butchered in the most vulgar >>>>> manner and the political and bureaucratic leadership of the state have >>>>> completely sold themselves to the Tatas. There has been absolutely not even >>>>> a murmur of protest from any of the mainstream political party leaders which >>>>> signifies the absolute power Tata wields over them. Just now reports reach >>>>> us suggesting that firing has started in Baligootha village and where about >>>>> of the leaders are not known. >>>>> >>>>> One person, Member Kalundia received bullet wounds in the chest and >>>>> legs... Police has demolished houses and set them ablaze... Cattle have been >>>>> indiscriminately shot at... Two days before Orissa Day the Govt celebrates >>>>> with a bloodbath... >>>>> >>>>> The police vacated the village but gathered about half a kilometer away >>>>> in front of Rohit Ferro Chrome Factory where the construction of the common >>>>> corridor road is to begin... All houses have been ransacked... foodstocks >>>>> set afire... televisions, radios, etc have been destroyed... the girl who >>>>> was beaten up by police has been admitted to the hospital... its not clear >>>>> yet how many have been arrested but some 20-30 people have sustained serious >>>>> injuries in the attack... >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> > From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed May 12 15:10:43 2010 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 02:40:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] "Our Pak policy has failed" Message-ID: <954798.51262.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> "Our Pak policy has failed"   Tavleen Singh Posted online: Sun May 09 2010, 21:20 hrs   In one of life’s mysterious coincidences, a Pakistani tried to blow up New York’s legendary Times Square in the week that our most famous Pakistani terrorist was sentenced to death in Mumbai. Since we still do not know the names of the men who were really responsible for 26/11, I found it hard to join in the general jubilation over Ajmal Kasab’s death sentence. What is the point in celebrating the death of a pawn when those who made the moves on Mumbai’s murderous chessboard on those two horrible days remain unpunished and unnamed? The Pakistani government would have us believe they were ‘non-state actors’ but fiercely guards their identity. Why? If Pakistan is itself a victim of jihadi terrorism, as it would like its Western financiers to believe, then why does it protect men so evil that a death sentence would not be punishment enough?   Compare the duplicity over 26/11 with the alacrity that we saw last week in the case of Faisal Shahzad and you face the dismal reality that the Pakistani State is fully behind terrorist activity in India. But, not in full support of terrorist groups that try to blow up Times Square. This could be because the $18 billion that Pakistan currently gets from its Western friends would instantly dry up. Whatever the reason, we saw keen cooperation in the Times Square incident after initial stupid remarks. Pakistani officials tried at first to say that since Shahzad was now an American citizen he was no longer Pakistan’s problem but it did not take long to discover links to Jaish-e-Mohammed and training camps in Waziristan. Arrests were quickly made and loose-tongued officials told to shut up.   If only we could begin to see this limited degree of cooperation on 26/11, we could begin a serious peace dialogue with Pakistan. We could even lend a hand in helping Islamabad solve its terrorist problems though we know that they are a blowback from decades of a foreign policy based on supporting jihadi groups in India and Afghanistan.   The Pakistan Government’s obdurate refusal to pay more than lip service to cooperation on 26/11 leads to the inevitable conclusion that the Pakistani State continues to believe that groups like the Lashkar-e-Toiba and the Jaish-e-Mohammed are useful. Not just because of Kashmir, as some fools believe, but because a stable, strong India weakens the raison d’etre of Pakistan. If Indians continue to buy cell phones at the rate they are buying them and if technology and some wise decisions on infrastructure (both physical and social) bring the dramatic changes that are possible, then there could be Pakistani citizens who might start asking questions. Why has Allah been so mean to Pakistan that it has been forced to rely on military rulers while us infidels across the border have been bequeathed regular elections? Why does Pakistan need billions of dollars of Western aid just to survive while Indian billionaires wander about the world buying up huge companies? Why does India, despite four wasted decades of socialism, look so much better than the land of the believers?   A politically stable and economically prosperous India could even end up inadvertently solving the Kashmir problem. Would Kashmir’s separatist leaders still want independence or secession if the Indian economy begins to boom? I think not. So India must be weakened in every way and because war is so not a 21st-century option, what better way than to continue sponsoring wicked men like Hafiz Mohammed Sayeed and Maulana Azhar Masood? Notice that the head of the Jaish-e-Mohammed vanishes whenever there is trouble but operates openly otherwise.   The sad truth about our attempts to deal with Pakistan since the attack on Mumbai is that we have failed on every front. We have failed to convince the United States that Pakistan is not an ally in the war against Islamist terrorism but its epicentre, and we have failed to convince the Pakistani government that we are not stupid. That whether the American President can or not we see through their web of deception and lies and that until this duplicity stops there can be no peace dialogue, no ‘engagement’. The death sentence on Kasab will not bring closure but it could become a new beginning if we could see the smallest sign from Pakistan that it sincerely wants peace. Giving us the names of those who conducted the 26/11 massacre from cell phones that have been traced to a location in Pakistan could be a good first step in building what some Pakistani official called the ‘trust deficit’. Otherwise any attempt to restart the peace process would not just be meaningless but a betrayal of those who died in Mumbai because the Indian state failed to protect them against the new tactics of an old enemy.   (Follow Tavleen Singh on Twitter @ tavleen_singh)   http://www.indianexpress.com/news/our-pak-policy-has-failed/616190/   From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Wed May 12 15:21:23 2010 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 10:51:23 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] UID CARD Doubts Message-ID: Dear Shashidhar, You seem to me, like an outright apologist for UID, are you? or are you one of those dudes who are paid to manage banter on virtual forums. You know frankly, I am not bothered who you are. And I am terribly sorry if that sounds offensive because I did not intend it to be so. I am just flattered by the dexterity of your arguments to sideline the core issue which troubles the UID exercise. -If identity follows a fuzzy logic, then how can one claim to define it- And I am completely fascinated by your vision for UID and the good that it can do. I hope you are right. I fear you may not be entirely so. I was particularly struck by this comment of yours- -I do not think people have greatly different notions about identity you ask any one for his identity he will start by giving you his name, age, education, place of origin, family tree, lineage, linguistic abilities, hobbies, may be some caste and daba kuchla stuff.- UID is reference point for services, that's fine but isn't that an effect, in the sense that it can only act as a correct reference point for services if and only if a correct notion of identity is defined. What constitutes an individual identity? You tell me? And I am glad you bought the money issue up. Because I wonder why the man himself, Mr. Nilekani that is, never gives any answer to the money question? Why is he keeping mum on money? He will give you his sexy smile if you want. I think he's got a sexy smile. And he will give it you but never an answer to the money question. Never. No. He's is too smart for that. Isn't he. I wonder why? Then I wonder maybe too much is at stake here. Maybe too many people needs to benefit. Maybe money question will make the fuzziness of the core argument more bizzare. Maybe it will make the hollowness of this exercise in mapping identity more apparent. I don't know why it is like it is but I would like to know why Mr.Nilekani does not answer the money question. I also wonder how can we take a man, a business man, a man driven by greed and profit, a man who has lived his life on the idea of a -bottomline- out of his cushy chair and make a post for him and give him a rank of cabinet minister. I mean he would make the rest of the netas look like fools wouldn't he. He never had to slog it out like other politicians. He never had to make any promises to the janta. How can anyone give him the privilege and the power of a cabinet minister? How can no one questions this? I mean, is it right? Is the congress party giving a message to all of us, that from now on, we can start imagining politicians as managers of public life rather than leaders who can think about the good of all. And you ask where I get my numbers from? Well thank you for asking. Please allow me to respond. My data is based on two sources. first is Hindu and the second one is TOI. If you remember, I have made prior postings in this regard on the reader-list almost a year ago. You may either refer here- http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2009-July/021176.html or here- http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2009-June/020498.html And if you have any problems even after that, then why don't you ask the TOI and Hindu if they are telling the truth and if they aren't then sue them for God's sake, for lying to the public, spreading this misinformation campaign, but before you get too worked up and you may, for you seem to be the sensitive sorts, sensitive to UIDAI at least, let me ask you something, please tell me, if in your view 'the UID have been promised some some 1900 crore this year' then why are all these news reports floating on the web- Cisco Systems wants a piece of the action from India’s multi billion dollar Unique Identity (UID) project. http://www.moneymint.in/business/tcs-cisco-google-yahoo-et-al-fighting-for-unique-identity-uid-project The UID project, named "Aadhar", is estimated to cost some $2.2-$4.4 billion to implement, but will bring in an equal amount in savings annually from the elimination of duplicate and false identities, said Samiran Chakraborty, head of research at Standard Chartered. http://m.economictimes.com/PDAET/articleshow/5871470.cms and so on and so forth, do you think these people have lost a sense of balance? Why is it that Philips NxP is opening all these factories in India? Why are the share prices of Bartronics and of TCS and of Mindtree and of Infosys (Mr. Nailekani's abandoned child) rallying so much, don't you think that something fuzzy is going on here, just like this whole identity business? Warm regards Taha From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed May 12 15:35:01 2010 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 03:05:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] He is Muslim, Islamic, devout. Message-ID: <347219.88035.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> This limerick was posted by one "Symphon" in a May 6 comment on an piece by Ezra Klein in The Washington Post. http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2010/05/the_economic_crisis_meets_terr.html   That is the source for the reference to 'Foreclosed'.   For South Asians - dont miss the rhyme between 'any' and the American (Western?) pronunciation of Pakistani.   """"" Mr. Shahzad is no commonplace lout. Don't believe that his motive's in doubt. He isn't just any Foreclosed Pakistani - He is Muslim, Islamic, devout. """"""   Kshmendra    From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Wed May 12 16:22:30 2010 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 11:52:30 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] My caste and I Message-ID: Dear All, Here's one more. Sorry for spamming the list like this. But I sincerely believe we need to think more and debate more about this fizzy logic of identity. Pratap Bhanu Mehta writes in Express -a caste census condemns us to the tyranny of compulsory identities- a caste census condemns us to misidentify the remedies of injustice-giving in to a caste census is giving in to a discourse of raw political power-a caste census is the basis for a self-destructive politics.-a caste census invites misrecognition. You may read his entire view at the Express site: http://www.indianexpress.com/news/my-caste-and-i/617530/0 The point we need to think about is this: If there is some grain of reason in Mr. Mehta's arguments then would it not lead to a completely bizzare set of database which is made up of misconstrued data units? That UID could be beneficial is without a doubt, that technology could benefit us in some way is also perhaps true however should not think about the nature of information which we intend to feed in this technology? Warm regards Taha From chintangirishmodi at gmail.com Wed May 12 16:25:10 2010 From: chintangirishmodi at gmail.com (Chintan) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 16:25:10 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Let's Colour Project Message-ID: Excerpt from http://letscolourproject.com/ Grey is out. Gloom is gone. It’s time to live our lives in colour. The Let’s Colour Project is a worldwide initiative to transform grey spaces with vibrant colour. A mission to spread colour all over the world. We are working together with local communities across the globe, rolling up our sleeves to paint streets, houses, schools and squares. It’s the beginning of a colour movement that everyone can join in. Sign upnow to follow us and find out how you can be a part of it. From akmalik45 at yahoo.com Wed May 12 16:54:43 2010 From: akmalik45 at yahoo.com (A.K. Malik) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 04:24:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] UID CARD BENEFIT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <148118.28077.qm@web112107.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Dear Mr Taha, Why do you want to complicate a simple thing? Ask an uneducated person on the road, he will tell you the benefits of an ID Card. And Mr Shashidhar why NGOs are opposing the Project, to my mind it is going to stop the money (liberally granted by the Govt quite oftely without audit as pointed by CAG) many of them are minting with fake numbers/details which would become difficult once the UID is in force. Regards, (A.K.MALIK) --- On Tue, 5/11/10, Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> wrote: > From: Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] UID CARD BENEFIT > To: "Shashidhar" > Cc: "sarai-list" > Date: Tuesday, May 11, 2010, 5:40 PM > Dear Bipin and Shahidhar, > > Thank you for your responses. > > Enumeration is fine with me. You count a person, you attach > a figure. > Simple and straightforward. Any act of governance needs > that. I do not > have a problem with it. Identity is a tricky issue. It's a > fuzzy > issue. The word is fuzzy. Is it not vague? Does it not mean > many > things? Can it be be categorized by a singular notion? > > The GOI is transferring 1.5 Lakh crore rupees in the name > of identity. > And Bipin I do not know who can define a unit of > measurement of > identity. I am not interested in who. I am not bothered by > who. Who > can be tom, dick or harry or a sita or a gita or ram or a > rahim for > all I care. > > I am interested in How and Why and What. So I would be glad > if you > could forgo who and tell me how identity can be measured, > by what > means and why those means represent a true measurement of a > person's > identity? > > Please allow me explain what I mean- > > If the pharmacist makes a drug without going into the > nature of what > constitutes the elements of that drug, what does that drug > do, what > illness can it alleviate and gives that drug to a doctor > and the > doctor prescribes that drug to you without diagnosing you, > without > verifying the nature of your illness and without > establishing whether > this drug is the only drug amongst all the drugs which are > available > in a market which can alleviate your illness. > > Will you take that drug Bipin? Simply because a doctor of > medicine has > given it to you? Will you be so charmed by the packaging of > the drug > that you will suspend doubt? Will you be so in awe of man > in white > clothes that you will give in because the name tag in front > of his > room says MD MBBS?  Or will you allow doubt to enter, > Bipin? Think! > > In the similar manner, can we not think about the people of > India as a > body? Are we not told that some parts of our body are > getting weak > because they are not nourished? Are we not prescribed a > medicine in > the name of UID? Is it not our responsibility to doubt, > both as > individuals and as a collective, to assess whether such a > drug is good > or not? Because if it a bad drug it might effect the life > of our > entire body which includes you and me Bipin. Who would we > blame then, > Bipin. Governments come and go. That's the nature of > governance. But > we are here to stay. That's the nature of people. > > UID is build on the idea of identity. Identity is a fuzzy > notion. It > is a vague idea. It means many things to many people. It > might mean > one thing to many people. It might also mean many things to > one > person. Or it might mean nothing to no one. or every thing > to every > one. In every case the meaning, the nature of identity is > inconsistent. Should we not allow this inconsistency in > meaning of > identity to remain? > > Warm regards > > Taha > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From akmalik45 at yahoo.com Wed May 12 17:16:05 2010 From: akmalik45 at yahoo.com (A.K. Malik) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 04:46:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT Message-ID: <8530.72346.qm@web112106.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Dear Mr Kaul, You must have seen Times of India newsitem wherein Mr Moilly, the Law Minister says that Kasab will be hanged in 8 months time even if he files appeal.What happened to the Queue system where mercy petitions are waiting? Is he going to break the Q for poor Kasab and leave Afzal living? Something is definitely fishy about Afzal being kept alive and not the Q system you had relied upon. Regards, (A.K.MALIK) --- On Sun, 5/9/10, A.K. Malik wrote: > From: A.K. Malik > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > To: "Kshmendra Kaul" > Cc: "Sarai List" > Date: Sunday, May 9, 2010, 11:54 AM > Dear Mr Kaul, >               I am sorry > to interrupt the thread between you and Mr Bipin, but after > reading your post couldn't resist writing back. > 1&2.There is no harm in having an opinion/point of view > different than what is the law in force.So long as it is not > changed,the punishment would be based on the Supreme Court > verdict that death penalty should be given only in rarest of > rare cases and this is what has been done by the Judge in > the Kasab case.To give the convicted person a safeguard > against a wrong conviction of death penalty,it is mandatory > for the sentence to be ratified in the next higher court, in > this case Bombay High Court. > If HC doesn't consider it as rearest of the rare case then > it is a  different matter. > 3.Ask the relatives of the persons killed by the barbaric > act of the terrorist who want the fellow to be hanged in > public/shot dead without trial even but the law of the land > has prevailed and must prevail. > 4. Everyone on the road knows why Afzal Guru is not being > hanged.Anything rest is all bullshit.You have written > that"There is a rule followed that each one will await its > turn for being accepted or being rejected. THIS IS > IMPORTANT.",just give a refernce to this rule so that we > also become aware.Even a clerk in Govt Office knows to > prioritise which file is to be sent early and which later > but the Delhi Govt can't make up its mind to send comments > on Afzal's petition in 5 years.Even if such a rule exists > who stops the Govt from changing it by executive > directions-because no such rule exists at all. I say almost > all such "mercy petitions" have some or the other contacts > in political and bureaucracy and are intentionally being > dragged. So long live Afzal because the earlier petitions > will never be decided in his life time.May be if Kasab also > gets the same stature as Afzal, he will also live on. > Yes, we belong to Gandhiji's land so we don't do anything > to people who come and kill us and would rather say come > kill us and we will give you immunity from being hanged and > even punished and spend crores of rupees for your safety. > Long live Indian Politics! > With regards, > > (A.K.MALIK) > > > --- On Sat, 5/8/10, Kshmendra Kaul > wrote: > > > From: Kshmendra Kaul > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > To: "Bipin Trivedi" > > Cc: "sarai-list" > > Date: Saturday, May 8, 2010, 7:37 PM > > Dear Bipin > >   > > We are talking in circles now. I will try to make this > my > > last post on this thread and you are most welcome to > have > > the final say. > >   > > 1. To answer the easier question. Yes, in my opinion, > the > > countries including India, USA, China, Pakistan and > > whosoever else, even if they total to 99% of the > World > > Population are BARBARIC in having the 'death penalty' > as > > punishment for any crime whatsoever. > >   > >     I hope you understand that I am not calling > these > > countries 'barbaric' in their sum-total, but > 'barbaric' with > > regards to death-penalty. > >   > > 2. Yes our (Indian) Constitution permits the 'death > > penalty' and from my point of view that needs to be > changed. > > And, because I want to see that changed therefore my > > argument is not irrelevant but it is a mirror for > showing > > the barbarism of death-penalty existing in the > Constitution > > and the blood-lust of those who are scream for anyone > at > > all to be done to death for any crime whatsoever. > >   > > 3. My (and presumably other 'people like me') opposing > the > > 'death penalty' is not meant for saving one person but > for > > saving every person who might be awarded the death > sentence > > whether that person has killed 1 or a hundred or > thousands. > >   > > 4. I tried to explain to you in the last mail why the > delay > > in execution of Afzal Guru is not 'minority > appeasement' but > > I seem to have been unsuccessful. > >   > >    There are reportedly 29 'mercy petitions' like > that > > of Afzal Guru lying pending with the President of > India. > >   > >    Afzal Guru was sentenced to death in 2004. > >   > >    Let me now give you some names of those who were > > awarded the death sentence before Afzal Guru and you > might > > realise that there is no 'minority appeasement' in > play. > >   > >   Look at these names: Murugan; G. > Perarivalan; Chinna > > Shanthan;  Davinder Singh > > Bhullar ;  Simon; Gnanprakasham; Meesekar > > Madaiah; Bilvendran; Gurdev Singh; Satnam > Singh; Para > > Singh; Sarabjit Singh; Praveen Kumar > >   > >    There is a rule followed that each one will await > its > > turn for being accepted or being rejected. THIS IS > > IMPORTANT. You have said that "Legal experts clearly > says > > there is no such law to go with queue for death > sentence > > matter." Will you please tell me which "Legal Experts" > But, > > isnt it logical that it should be turn by turn.  > >   > >    Your main argument for fast-tracking the > execution of > > Afzal Guru is "One must separate terrorists conviction > with > > other conviction. Due to our this terror soft > approach, we > > are unable to fight terror to the extent what actually > we > > should do." > >   > >    You are conveying that putting Afzal Guru to > death > > speedily will deter other terrorists from attacking > India. > >   > >    In this I disagree with you and let me tell you > why. > > Bipin there is no evidence at all from any part of the > World > > that executing the 'death sentence' for any kind of a > crime > > leads to decrease in the incidence of that particular > crime. > > If you have any such evidence please do share it. You > can > > take the examples of the very countries you mentioned > USA, > > China, Pakistan and you can add to that all other > countries > > where the 'death penalty' is awarded and executed. > >   > > As I said earlier, you can have the final say. > >   > > Kshmendra > >   > > > > --- On Sat, 5/8/10, Bipin Trivedi > > wrote: > > > > > > From: Bipin Trivedi > > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > To: "'Kshmendra Kaul'" > > Cc: "sarai-list" > > Date: Saturday, May 8, 2010, 10:54 AM > > > > > > Dear Kshemendra, > > > > I have not at all missed the central point. Politician > go > > out of law for > > their selfish motto, but not for terror conviction. > What's > > the reason? Can > > you tell? Just because of political mileage, nothing > else. > > It's real problem > > that people like you did not understand this. Because > they > > were punished as > > terrorists activity and so the special case and not > because > > of their > > religion. One must separate terrorists conviction > with > > other conviction. Due > > to our this terror soft approach, we are unable to > fight > > terror to the > > extent what actually we should do. > > > > I have never mentioned that Afsalguru should be given > > priority for > > punishment because he belongs to minority, but due to > > terrorist act > > conviction only. Whoever involved in this and even in > the > > future any > > religion should be treated as same for terror > conviction. > > > > Afsalguru case is clear minor appeasement for not > executing > > his conviction > > and goes wrong message to terror groups and encourage > them > > further. Legal > > experts clearly says there is no such law to go with > queue > > for death > > sentence matter. Earlier such execution of death > sentence > > carried out, out > > of turn in the couple of occasions. > > > > Constitution of India (SC) has already convicted > death > > sentence in 2006, > > this cabinet for strange reason delaying it. So, this > is > > clear minor > > appeasement case Dear Kshemendra. This is where > congress > > lack will to fight > > terrorism.  > > > > You personally oppose death sentence is altogether > > different issue. Our > > constitution permits death sentence, so you argument > at > > present is > > irrelevant of blood thirsty animal from Indian point > of > > view. It is > > unfortunate that people like you oppose death sentence > for > > the people who is > > blood thirsty for hundreds or thousands of people. You > want > > to save the life > > of one person who engaged in blood bath and take lives > of > > 100/1000 of > > people!!! > > > > India is barbaric in your view by adopting death > sentence > > than those nation > > like US, China, Pakistan and many more are also > barbaric > > for adopting this > > law. This is about 70% of world population is > barbaric > > according to you! > > > > Thanks > > Bipin > > > > > > > > From: Kshmendra Kaul [mailto:kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com] > > > > Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 4:10 PM > > To: Bipin Trivedi > > Cc: sarai-list > > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > > > Dear Bipin > >   > > You have missed the central point. The Constitution > of > > India gives that > > right to Ajmal Kasab and also to Afzal Guru. > >   > > FYI Afzal Guru is not the only one who's appeal for > waiver > > of 'death > > penalty' is pending with the President. And most of > the > > others are Hindus. > > So stop obsessing about 'appeasement of minorities' in > this > > case. > >   > > The Constitution of India is not so petty that it will > be > > changed just > > because you or someone else or even if millions of > Indians > > want to deny > > Kasab the tiered rights to Courts and appeal to > President. > >   > > Bipin, one should not accuse others of behaving > > like blood-thirsty animals > > and then become a blood-thirsty animal > himself/herself. > >   > > Kshmendra > >   > >   > > --- On Fri, 5/7/10, Bipin Trivedi > > wrote: > > > > From: Bipin Trivedi > > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > To: "'Kshmendra Kaul'" > > Cc: "sarai-list" > > Date: Friday, May 7, 2010, 3:37 PM > > Dear Kshemendra, > >   > > Parliament can and has right to make such decision if > show > > will. But, > > congress cannot show such will, who prolonged even > > Afsalguru conviction > > keeping pending for so long for their vote bank > politics. > > Comparison with > > Shah Bano for the reason of vote bank politics only > to > > appealing minor. > > Reverting shah Bano verdict is classic example of > minor > > appeasement and the > > same case with Afsalguru and I am fear for Kasav also > same > > thing might > > happen. > >   > > Thanks > > Bipin > >   > >   > >   > >   > > From: Kshmendra Kaul [mailto:kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com] > > > > Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 1:35 PM > > To: sarai-list; Bipin Trivedi > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > >   > > Dear Bipin > >   > > A. I am against the death penalty for anyone for any > crime > > whatsoever. I > > believe the 'death penalty' is awarded in barbaric > > societies, and yes, India > > is still barbaric in many ways. > >   > > B. You might disagree on the above. That does not > change > > the opportunity > > allowed in India for anyone convicted in a crime in a > Lower > > Court to take > > the matter to a Higher Cour.  > >   > >      Since it is a question of a 'death penalty', > Kasab > > has the right to > > have his case heard by the Higher Courts right upto > the > > Supreme Court. After > > that he has the right to appeal to the President for > waiver > > of the 'death > > penalty'. The Constitution of India provides that > right. > > You cannot compare > > Civil Law of the Shah Bano case witha 'death penalty' > being > > awarded.  > >   > >      No one can take that right away from Kasab. > >   > > Kshmendra > >    > >   > > --- On Thu, 5/6/10, Bipin Trivedi > > wrote: > >   > > From: Bipin Trivedi > > Subject: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > To: "sarai-list" > > Date: Thursday, May 6, 2010, 3:33 PM > > AS EXPECTED, KASAV RIGHTLY GOT DEATH SENTENCE. > >   > > Though terrorist's Kasav case was crystal clear, but > still > > we have gone for > > about 17 months fair trial and proved that how > transparent > > our judicial > > system is unlike Pakistan. But, after this trial and > > judgment, he should not > > allow to appeal in the higher court and should be > hanged in > > public > > immediately without further judicial procedure. if > Indira > > Gandhi (ex PM) > > deny to obey court verdict and neglect law and Shah > Banu > > case was revert out > > of law by parliament than why cannot this? India > should > > show the world that > > country cannot compromise in integrity and take hard > action > > if required like > > open public death sentence. > >   > > Thanks > > Bipin > >   > >   > >   > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > > city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with subscribe > > in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >   > > > > > > > > > > > >       > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > > city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > From shashidhar at butterfliesindia.org Wed May 12 17:22:59 2010 From: shashidhar at butterfliesindia.org (Shashidhar) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 17:22:59 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] UID CARD Doubts In-Reply-To: <7F834BB957B94EEA886786EB8F8714FC@butterfliesdelhi.local> References: <7F834BB957B94EEA886786EB8F8714FC@butterfliesdelhi.local> Message-ID: <000501caf1c9$aad6e110$0084a330$@butterfliesindia.org> I stand corrected.... thanks... -----Original Message----- From: Taha Mehmood [mailto:2tahamehmood at googlemail.com] Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2010 3:31 PM To: Shashidhar Cc: Bipin Trivedi; sarai-list Subject: UID CARD Doubts Dear Shashidhar, You seem to me, like an outright apologist for UID, are you? or are you one of those dudes who are paid to manage banter on virtual forums. You know frankly, I am not bothered who you are. And I am terribly sorry if that sounds offensive because I did not intend it to be so. I am just flattered by the dexterity of your arguments to sideline the core issue which troubles the UID exercise. -If identity follows a fuzzy logic, then how can one claim to define it- And I am completely fascinated by your vision for UID and the good that it can do. I hope you are right. I fear you may not be entirely so. I was particularly struck by this comment of yours- -I do not think people have greatly different notions about identity you ask any one for his identity he will start by giving you his name, age, education, place of origin, family tree, lineage, linguistic abilities, hobbies, may be some caste and daba kuchla stuff.- UID is reference point for services, that's fine but isn't that an effect, in the sense that it can only act as a correct reference point for services if and only if a correct notion of identity is defined. What constitutes an individual identity? You tell me? And I am glad you bought the money issue up. Because I wonder why the man himself, Mr. Nilekani that is, never gives any answer to the money question? Why is he keeping mum on money? He will give you his sexy smile if you want. I think he's got a sexy smile. And he will give it you but never an answer to the money question. Never. No. He's is too smart for that. Isn't he. I wonder why? Then I wonder maybe too much is at stake here. Maybe too many people needs to benefit. Maybe money question will make the fuzziness of the core argument more bizzare. Maybe it will make the hollowness of this exercise in mapping identity more apparent. I don't know why it is like it is but I would like to know why Mr.Nilekani does not answer the money question. I also wonder how can we take a man, a business man, a man driven by greed and profit, a man who has lived his life on the idea of a -bottomline- out of his cushy chair and make a post for him and give him a rank of cabinet minister. I mean he would make the rest of the netas look like fools wouldn't he. He never had to slog it out like other politicians. He never had to make any promises to the janta. How can anyone give him the privilege and the power of a cabinet minister? How can no one questions this? I mean, is it right? Is the congress party giving a message to all of us, that from now on, we can start imagining politicians as managers of public life rather than leaders who can think about the good of all. And you ask where I get my numbers from? Well thank you for asking. Please allow me to respond. My data is based on two sources. first is Hindu and the second one is TOI. If you remember, I have made prior postings in this regard on the reader-list almost a year ago. You may either refer here- http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2009-July/021176.html or here- http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2009-June/020498.html And if you have any problems even after that, then why don't you ask the TOI and Hindu if they are telling the truth and if they aren't then sue them for God's sake, for lying to the public, spreading this misinformation campaign, but before you get too worked up and you may, for you seem to be the sensitive sorts, sensitive to UIDAI at least, let me ask you something, please tell me, if in your view 'the UID have been promised some some 1900 crore this year' then why are all these news reports floating on the web- Cisco Systems wants a piece of the action from India's multi billion dollar Unique Identity (UID) project. http://www.moneymint.in/business/tcs-cisco-google-yahoo-et-al-fighting-for-u nique-identity-uid-project The UID project, named "Aadhar", is estimated to cost some $2.2-$4.4 billion to implement, but will bring in an equal amount in savings annually from the elimination of duplicate and false identities, said Samiran Chakraborty, head of research at Standard Chartered. http://m.economictimes.com/PDAET/articleshow/5871470.cms and so on and so forth, do you think these people have lost a sense of balance? Why is it that Philips NxP is opening all these factories in India? Why are the share prices of Bartronics and of TCS and of Mindtree and of Infosys (Mr. Nailekani's abandoned child) rallying so much, don't you think that something fuzzy is going on here, just like this whole identity business? Warm regards Taha From shashidhar at butterfliesindia.org Wed May 12 17:28:15 2010 From: shashidhar at butterfliesindia.org (Shashidhar) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 17:28:15 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] UID CARD BENEFIT In-Reply-To: <097141CD1CAB47D6996ACD81703AB963@butterfliesdelhi.local> References: <097141CD1CAB47D6996ACD81703AB963@butterfliesdelhi.local> Message-ID: <000601caf1ca$673fc240$35bf46c0$@butterfliesindia.org> Dear Mr. A.K. Malik I have spoken to some of the NGO's concerned and they are not very sure, some of them were saying that there is no security, when govt and military servers can be hacked what is the planning commission, other reaons are vote bank politics, caste differentiation, too much of expenditure on nothing and many more such reason. I think people generally do not like being identified, I remember a huge hue and cry when PAN was made compulsory, when voting is being made compulsory.... compulsorily we will not like doing anything and given a change we will choose not to do anything, such is our state. Regards, Shashidhar -----Original Message----- From: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net [mailto:reader-list-bounces at sarai.net] On Behalf Of A.K. Malik Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2010 5:16 PM To: Taha Mehmood Cc: Sarai List Subject: Re: [Reader-list] UID CARD BENEFIT Dear Mr Taha, Why do you want to complicate a simple thing? Ask an uneducated person on the road, he will tell you the benefits of an ID Card. And Mr Shashidhar why NGOs are opposing the Project, to my mind it is going to stop the money (liberally granted by the Govt quite oftely without audit as pointed by CAG) many of them are minting with fake numbers/details which would become difficult once the UID is in force. Regards, (A.K.MALIK) --- On Tue, 5/11/10, Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> wrote: > From: Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] UID CARD BENEFIT > To: "Shashidhar" > Cc: "sarai-list" > Date: Tuesday, May 11, 2010, 5:40 PM > Dear Bipin and Shahidhar, > > Thank you for your responses. > > Enumeration is fine with me. You count a person, you attach > a figure. > Simple and straightforward. Any act of governance needs > that. I do not > have a problem with it. Identity is a tricky issue. It's a > fuzzy > issue. The word is fuzzy. Is it not vague? Does it not mean > many > things? Can it be be categorized by a singular notion? > > The GOI is transferring 1.5 Lakh crore rupees in the name > of identity. > And Bipin I do not know who can define a unit of > measurement of > identity. I am not interested in who. I am not bothered by > who. Who > can be tom, dick or harry or a sita or a gita or ram or a > rahim for > all I care. > > I am interested in How and Why and What. So I would be glad > if you > could forgo who and tell me how identity can be measured, > by what > means and why those means represent a true measurement of a > person's > identity? > > Please allow me explain what I mean- > > If the pharmacist makes a drug without going into the > nature of what > constitutes the elements of that drug, what does that drug > do, what > illness can it alleviate and gives that drug to a doctor > and the > doctor prescribes that drug to you without diagnosing you, > without > verifying the nature of your illness and without > establishing whether > this drug is the only drug amongst all the drugs which are > available > in a market which can alleviate your illness. > > Will you take that drug Bipin? Simply because a doctor of > medicine has > given it to you? Will you be so charmed by the packaging of > the drug > that you will suspend doubt? Will you be so in awe of man > in white > clothes that you will give in because the name tag in front > of his > room says MD MBBS? Or will you allow doubt to enter, > Bipin? Think! > > In the similar manner, can we not think about the people of > India as a > body? Are we not told that some parts of our body are > getting weak > because they are not nourished? Are we not prescribed a > medicine in > the name of UID? Is it not our responsibility to doubt, > both as > individuals and as a collective, to assess whether such a > drug is good > or not? Because if it a bad drug it might effect the life > of our > entire body which includes you and me Bipin. Who would we > blame then, > Bipin. Governments come and go. That's the nature of > governance. But > we are here to stay. That's the nature of people. > > UID is build on the idea of identity. Identity is a fuzzy > notion. It > is a vague idea. It means many things to many people. It > might mean > one thing to many people. It might also mean many things to > one > person. Or it might mean nothing to no one. or every thing > to every > one. In every case the meaning, the nature of identity is > inconsistent. Should we not allow this inconsistency in > meaning of > identity to remain? > > Warm regards > > Taha > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed May 12 18:21:27 2010 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 05:51:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT In-Reply-To: <8530.72346.qm@web112106.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <847636.71650.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear AKM   Yes you are right. Somewhat right.   It was Home Secretary GK PIllai who said that Kasab could be hanged within 8 months. But he also indicated that period conditional to "If he does not file any appeal anywhere".   Subsequently Law Minister Veerappa Moily did say that even if Kasab filed an appeal the case could be and should be fast-tracked and that Kasab will be hanged within a year.   I was not wrong about the queue system for clemency-appeals from Death Row. I read about that rule being followed. (just one example here : http://ibnlive.in.com/news/afzal-sushil-santosh-waiting-on-death-row/114683-3.html?from=trhs )   Obviously it is not so and even if there is some unwritten rule (as there seems to have been) then it  can be circumvented at the choice of the Executive as can be seen in the remarks of Abhishek Singhvi in this report : http://ibnlive.in.com/news/queue-not-caste-in-stone-in-kasabs-case-cong/114748-37-64.html?from=trhs   If the queue systen can be broken for fast-tracking for one set of reasons (in Kasab's case) then it can also be broken to delay for another set of reasons (in Afzal Guru's case).   Since, as you know, I am against the Death-Penalty, therefore I have no interest in exploring either set of reasons for either or any other case.   In an earlier mail I had mentioned 29 people being on the Death Row with Right of Appeal to President for Clemecy. I was wrong about that too. It would be more than 50. In August 2008 itself there were 50 as per response to a RTI petition. Details here: http://www.rtiindia.org/forum/6488-50-clemency-pleas-pending-before-prez.html   Kshmendra --- On Wed, 5/12/10, A.K. Malik wrote: From: A.K. Malik Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT To: "Kshmendra Kaul" Cc: "Sarai List" Date: Wednesday, May 12, 2010, 5:16 PM Dear Mr Kaul,              You must have seen Times of India newsitem wherein Mr Moilly, the Law Minister says that Kasab will be hanged in 8 months time even if he files appeal.What happened to the Queue system where mercy petitions are waiting? Is he going to break the Q for poor Kasab and leave Afzal living? Something is definitely fishy about Afzal being kept alive and not the Q system you had relied upon. Regards, (A.K.MALIK) --- On Sun, 5/9/10, A.K. Malik wrote: > From: A.K. Malik > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > To: "Kshmendra Kaul" > Cc: "Sarai List" > Date: Sunday, May 9, 2010, 11:54 AM > Dear Mr Kaul, >               I am sorry > to interrupt the thread between you and Mr Bipin, but after > reading your post couldn't resist writing back. > 1&2.There is no harm in having an opinion/point of view > different than what is the law in force.So long as it is not > changed,the punishment would be based on the Supreme Court > verdict that death penalty should be given only in rarest of > rare cases and this is what has been done by the Judge in > the Kasab case.To give the convicted person a safeguard > against a wrong conviction of death penalty,it is mandatory > for the sentence to be ratified in the next higher court, in > this case Bombay High Court. > If HC doesn't consider it as rearest of the rare case then > it is a  different matter. > 3.Ask the relatives of the persons killed by the barbaric > act of the terrorist who want the fellow to be hanged in > public/shot dead without trial even but the law of the land > has prevailed and must prevail. > 4. Everyone on the road knows why Afzal Guru is not being > hanged.Anything rest is all bullshit.You have written > that"There is a rule followed that each one will await its > turn for being accepted or being rejected. THIS IS >  IMPORTANT.",just give a refernce to this rule so that we > also become aware.Even a clerk in Govt Office knows to > prioritise which file is to be sent early and which later > but the Delhi Govt can't make up its mind to send comments > on Afzal's petition in 5 years.Even if such a rule exists > who stops the Govt from changing it by executive > directions-because no such rule exists at all. I say almost > all such "mercy petitions" have some or the other contacts > in political and bureaucracy and are intentionally being > dragged. So long live Afzal because the earlier petitions > will never be decided in his life time.May be if Kasab also > gets the same stature as Afzal, he will also live on. > Yes, we belong to Gandhiji's land so we don't do anything > to people who come and kill us and would rather say come > kill us and we will give you immunity from being hanged and > even punished and spend crores of rupees for your safety. > Long live Indian Politics! > With regards, > > (A.K.MALIK) > > > --- On Sat, 5/8/10, Kshmendra Kaul > wrote: > > > From: Kshmendra Kaul > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > To: "Bipin Trivedi" > > Cc: "sarai-list" > > Date: Saturday, May 8, 2010, 7:37 PM > > Dear Bipin > >   > > We are talking in circles now. I will try to make this > my > > last post on this thread and you are most welcome to > have > > the final say. > >   > > 1. To answer the easier question. Yes, in my opinion, > the > > countries including India, USA, China, Pakistan and > > whosoever else, even if they total to 99% of the > World > > Population are BARBARIC in having the 'death penalty' > as > > punishment for any crime whatsoever. > >   > >     I hope you understand that I am not calling > these > > countries 'barbaric' in their sum-total, but > 'barbaric' with > > regards to death-penalty. > >   > > 2. Yes our (Indian) Constitution permits the 'death > > penalty' and from my point of view that needs to be > changed. > > And, because I want to see that changed therefore my > > argument is not irrelevant but it is a mirror for > showing > > the barbarism of death-penalty existing in the > Constitution > > and the blood-lust of those who are scream for anyone > at > > all to be done to death for any crime whatsoever. > >   > > 3. My (and presumably other 'people like me') opposing > the > > 'death penalty' is not meant for saving one person but > for > > saving every person who might be awarded the death > sentence > > whether that person has killed 1 or a hundred or > thousands. > >   > > 4. I tried to explain to you in the last mail why the > delay > > in execution of Afzal Guru is not 'minority > appeasement' but > > I seem to have been unsuccessful. > >   > >    There are reportedly 29 'mercy petitions' like > that > > of Afzal Guru lying pending with the President of > India. > >   > >    Afzal Guru was sentenced to death in 2004. > >   > >    Let me now give you some names of those who were > > awarded the death sentence before Afzal Guru and you > might > > realise that there is no 'minority appeasement' in > play. > >   > >   Look at these names: Murugan; G. > Perarivalan; Chinna > > Shanthan;  Davinder Singh > > Bhullar ;  Simon; Gnanprakasham; Meesekar > > Madaiah; Bilvendran; Gurdev Singh; Satnam > Singh; Para > > Singh; Sarabjit Singh; Praveen Kumar > >   > >    There is a rule followed that each one will await > its > > turn for being accepted or being rejected. THIS IS > > IMPORTANT. You have said that "Legal experts clearly > says > > there is no such law to go with queue for death > sentence > > matter." Will you please tell me which "Legal Experts" > But, > > isnt it logical that it should be turn by turn.  > >   > >    Your main argument for fast-tracking the > execution of > > Afzal Guru is "One must separate terrorists conviction > with > > other conviction. Due to our this terror soft > approach, we > > are unable to fight terror to the extent what actually > we > > should do." > >   > >    You are conveying that putting Afzal Guru to > death > > speedily will deter other terrorists from attacking > India. > >   > >    In this I disagree with you and let me tell you > why. > > Bipin there is no evidence at all from any part of the > World > > that executing the 'death sentence' for any kind of a > crime > > leads to decrease in the incidence of that particular > crime. > > If you have any such evidence please do share it. You > can > > take the examples of the very countries you mentioned > USA, > > China, Pakistan and you can add to that all other > countries > > where the 'death penalty' is awarded and executed. > >   > > As I said earlier, you can have the final say. > >   > > Kshmendra > >   > > > > --- On Sat, 5/8/10, Bipin Trivedi > > wrote: > > > > > > From: Bipin Trivedi > > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > To: "'Kshmendra Kaul'" > > Cc: "sarai-list" > > Date: Saturday, May 8, 2010, 10:54 AM > > > > > > Dear Kshemendra, > > > > I have not at all missed the central point. Politician > go > > out of law for > > their selfish motto, but not for terror conviction. > What's > > the reason? Can > > you tell? Just because of political mileage, nothing > else. > > It's real problem > > that people like you did not understand this. Because > they > > were punished as > > terrorists activity and so the special case and not > because > > of their > > religion. One must separate terrorists conviction > with > > other conviction. Due > > to our this terror soft approach, we are unable to > fight > > terror to the > > extent what actually we should do. > > > > I have never mentioned that Afsalguru should be given > > priority for > > punishment because he belongs to minority, but due to > > terrorist act > > conviction only. Whoever involved in this and even in > the > > future any > > religion should be treated as same for terror > conviction. > > > > Afsalguru case is clear minor appeasement for not > executing > > his conviction > > and goes wrong message to terror groups and encourage > them > > further. Legal > > experts clearly says there is no such law to go with > queue > > for death > > sentence matter. Earlier such execution of death > sentence > > carried out, out > > of turn in the couple of occasions. > > > > Constitution of India (SC) has already convicted > death > > sentence in 2006, > > this cabinet for strange reason delaying it. So, this > is > > clear minor > > appeasement case Dear Kshemendra. This is where > congress > > lack will to fight > > terrorism.  > > > > You personally oppose death sentence is altogether > > different issue. Our > > constitution permits death sentence, so you argument > at > > present is > > irrelevant of blood thirsty animal from Indian point > of > > view. It is > > unfortunate that people like you oppose death sentence > for > > the people who is > > blood thirsty for hundreds or thousands of people. You > want > > to save the life > > of one person who engaged in blood bath and take lives > of > > 100/1000 of > > people!!! > > > > India is barbaric in your view by adopting death > sentence > > than those nation > > like US, China, Pakistan and many more are also > barbaric > > for adopting this > > law. This is about 70% of world population is > barbaric > > according to you! > > > > Thanks > > Bipin > > > > > > > > From: Kshmendra Kaul [mailto:kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com] > > > > Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 4:10 PM > > To: Bipin Trivedi > > Cc: sarai-list > > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > > > Dear Bipin > >   > > You have missed the central point. The Constitution > of > > India gives that > > right to Ajmal Kasab and also to Afzal Guru. > >   > > FYI Afzal Guru is not the only one who's appeal for > waiver > > of 'death > > penalty' is pending with the President. And most of > the > > others are Hindus. > > So stop obsessing about 'appeasement of minorities' in > this > > case. > >   > > The Constitution of India is not so petty that it will > be > > changed just > > because you or someone else or even if millions of > Indians > > want to deny > > Kasab the tiered rights to Courts and appeal to > President. > >   > > Bipin, one should not accuse others of behaving > > like blood-thirsty animals > > and then become a blood-thirsty animal > himself/herself. > >   > > Kshmendra > >   > >   > > --- On Fri, 5/7/10, Bipin Trivedi > > wrote: > > > > From: Bipin Trivedi > > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > To: "'Kshmendra Kaul'" > > Cc: "sarai-list" > > Date: Friday, May 7, 2010, 3:37 PM > > Dear Kshemendra, > >   > > Parliament can and has right to make such decision if > show > > will. But, > > congress cannot show such will, who prolonged even > > Afsalguru conviction > > keeping pending for so long for their vote bank > politics. > > Comparison with > > Shah Bano for the reason of vote bank politics only > to > > appealing minor. > > Reverting shah Bano verdict is classic example of > minor > > appeasement and the > > same case with Afsalguru and I am fear for Kasav also > same > > thing might > > happen. > >   > > Thanks > > Bipin > >   > >   > >   > >   > > From: Kshmendra Kaul [mailto:kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com] > > > > Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 1:35 PM > > To: sarai-list; Bipin Trivedi > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > >   > > Dear Bipin > >   > > A. I am against the death penalty for anyone for any > crime > > whatsoever. I > > believe the 'death penalty' is awarded in barbaric > > societies, and yes, India > > is still barbaric in many ways. > >   > > B. You might disagree on the above. That does not > change > > the opportunity > > allowed in India for anyone convicted in a crime in a > Lower > > Court to take > > the matter to a Higher Cour.  > >   > >      Since it is a question of a 'death penalty', > Kasab > > has the right to > > have his case heard by the Higher Courts right upto > the > > Supreme Court. After > > that he has the right to appeal to the President for > waiver > > of the 'death > > penalty'. The Constitution of India provides that > right. > > You cannot compare > > Civil Law of the Shah Bano case witha 'death penalty' > being > > awarded.  > >   > >      No one can take that right away from Kasab. > >   > > Kshmendra > >    > >   > > --- On Thu, 5/6/10, Bipin Trivedi > > wrote: > >   > > From: Bipin Trivedi > > Subject: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > To: "sarai-list" > > Date: Thursday, May 6, 2010, 3:33 PM > > AS EXPECTED, KASAV RIGHTLY GOT DEATH SENTENCE. > >   > > Though terrorist's Kasav case was crystal clear, but > still > > we have gone for > > about 17 months fair trial and proved that how > transparent > > our judicial > > system is unlike Pakistan. But, after this trial and > > judgment, he should not > > allow to appeal in the higher court and should be > hanged in > > public > > immediately without further judicial procedure. if > Indira > > Gandhi (ex PM) > > deny to obey court verdict and neglect law and Shah > Banu > > case was revert out > > of law by parliament than why cannot this? India > should > > show the world that > > country cannot compromise in integrity and take hard > action > > if required like > > open public death sentence. > >   > > Thanks > > Bipin > >   > >   > >   > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > > city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with subscribe > > in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >   > > > > > > > > > > > >       > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > > city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Wed May 12 18:41:15 2010 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 14:11:15 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] UID CARD Doubts Message-ID: Dear Shashidhar and AK Malik, Why do you get this impression that I am complicating things? When in fact I am asking a very simple question. I sometimes feel that I have become completely neurotic in obsessing about identity in such a public fashion for the last so many years. But maybe sometimes it requires a neurosis to drive home a point. So without further ado. Please allow me to put my question to you. What does one mean by identity? I would thank you from the bottom of my heart if you could please tell me the answer of this very very simply question. I gather from your mail that you seem to have a clear notion of what UID is all about. I would not post any mails on this list if you were to tell me the meaning of identity, a meaning which could be applied universally. So that every time I read this fuzzy word -identity- in UID I know what it means and every time this word comes across me I would know what it means and of course it must mean the same thing. Hope you wouldn't mind taking some time off your busy schedule to clear the fuzziness from -identity-, would you? And Shashidhar which sort of a change you would rather choose? Would you go for a change if you know that the change is for the worse or would you go for a change if you know that the change is for the good. And what if you didn't know what sort of a change it was then! What would you do? Would you rather go for a change which you didn't know was good, or did not know was worse. Or if you would rather if change were to come to you then would you not prefer to rather stay where you were and spent some time in weighing and measuring and thinking and speculating about the good that this change may do to you or harm you in some way and apply this change to tests and maybe then proceed with a confidence of a belief? Wouldn't you rather think before standing in a queue to give your fingerprints, just because everyone is doing it? Didn't they tell us after independence that big dams are good for all? Didn't they say that all our problems with respect to food, hunger, water, electricity will go if we have big dams? Didn't they ask us to put our faith in technology? Well what happened to that promise? We changed didn't we? and what happened? Are we free of all food, hunger, water, electricity problems? Do you want to put your belief in the words of these people again without doubting it even a single bit? Warm regards Taha From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed May 12 19:00:21 2010 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 06:30:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] "Haram" to accept a woman's earnings Message-ID: <288458.51616.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> "Deoband fatwa: It's illegal for women to work, support family" Pervez Iqbal Siddiqui, TNN, May 12, 2010, 02.40am IST   LUCKNOW: Darul Uloom Deoband, the self-appointed guardian for Indian Muslims, in a Talibanesque fatwa that reeked of tribal patriarchy, has decreed that it is "haram" and illegal according to the Sharia for a family to accept a woman's earnings. Clerics at the largest Sunni Muslim seminary after Cairo's Al-Azhar said the decree flowed from the fact that the Sharia prohibited proximity of men and women in the workplace. "It is unlawful (under the Sharia law) for Muslim women to work in the government or private sector where men and women work together and women have to talk with men frankly and without a veil," said the fatwa issued by a bench of three clerics. The decree was issued over the weekend, but became public late on Monday, seminary sources said. At a time when there is a rising clamour for job quotas for Muslims in India and a yearning for progress in the community that sees itself as neglected, the fatwa, although unlikely to be heeded, is clearly detrimental. Even the most conservative Islamic countries, which restrict activities of women, including preventing them from driving, do not bar women from working. At the peak of its power, the Taliban only barred women in professions like medicine from treating men and vice versa. But there was a never a blanket ban on working, although the mullahs made it amply clear that they would like to see the women confined to homes. The fatwa, however, drew flak among other clerics. "Men and women in Sharia are entitled to equal rights. If men follow the Sharia, there is no reason why women can't work with them," said Rasheed, the Naib Imam of Lucknow's main Eidgah Mosque in Aishbagh. Mufti Maulana Khalid Rasheed of Darul Ifta Firangi Meheli -- another radical Islamic body which also issues fatwas -- criticized the Deoband fatwa as a retrograde restriction on Muslim women. The fatwa was in response to a question whether Muslim women can take up government or private jobs and whether their salary should be termed as `halal' (permissible under the Sharia) or `haram' (forbidden). Well-known Shia cleric Maulana Kalbe Jawwad, however, justified the fatwa. "Women in Islam are not supposed to go out and earn a living. It's the responsibility of the males in the family," he said. "If a woman has to go for a job, she must make sure that the Sharia restrictions are not compromised," he added, citing the example of Iran, where Muslim women work in offices but have separate seating areas, away from their male counterparts. In Lucknow, a city with strong secular and progressive traditions, where Muslim families train their daughters to be doctors, engineers and executives, there was a sense of shocked disbelief even in conservative quarters that such a decree could come from those who consider themselves to be advocates of the community. "I am also a working woman and also ensure that my Sharia is not compromised," said Rukhsana, a lecturer at a girl's college in Lucknow and a member of the executive committee of All India Muslim Personal Law Board (AIMPLB). "It's not necessary that one would have to go against the Sharia when going to work." "Name one Islamic country which does not have a national airline and does not hire airhostesses? If I know correctly, even the Saudi Airlines has hostesses and they don't wear a veil," said Shabeena Parveen, a computer professional in the city.   http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Deoband-fatwa-Its-illegal-for-women-to-work-support-family/articleshow/5919153.cms   From rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com Wed May 12 21:48:31 2010 From: rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com (Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 21:48:31 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] UID CARD Doubts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Taha, for me identity is about me, as an individual in relation with the nation and its society, made up of many individuals, for we are particles in the society, that makes up the nation,and thus we have a system to rule ourselves with democratic norms, and the system is made up of individuals, thus the individuals have both good and bad actions binding them in to the nation and thus society.Some individuals would love to dominate the others in the society and the nation with hunger for power, with playing to the emotions of others, with faith, caste and creed and regional affinities in this game,some would like to continue to be in positions of material power, with the same tactics, thus for all identity is about being the living being in society, in the nation. For a few it may not matter, as for them they are above all, "intellectuals' with their intellect they would love to rule and subvert the rule of laws, it is alright if it remains their wish without violent means to do so, but many a times, it is these cowards, which use their intellect and freedom that is ensured in the rule of laws, to subvert the very rule of laws, and put in place their intellectual comrades. On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 6:41 PM, Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com>wrote: > Dear Shashidhar and AK Malik, > > Why do you get this impression that I am complicating things? When in > fact I am asking a very simple question. I sometimes feel that I have > become completely neurotic in obsessing about identity in such a > public fashion for the last so many years. But maybe sometimes it > requires a neurosis to drive home a point. > > So without further ado. Please allow me to put my question to you. > > What does one mean by identity? > > I would thank you from the bottom of my heart if you could please tell > me the answer of this very very simply question. I gather from your > mail that you seem to have a clear notion of what UID is all about. I > would not post any mails on this list if you were to tell me the > meaning of identity, a meaning which could be applied universally. > > So that every time I read this fuzzy word -identity- in UID I know > what it means and every time this word comes across me I would know > what it means and of course it must mean the same thing. Hope you > wouldn't mind taking some time off your busy schedule to clear the > fuzziness from -identity-, would you? > > And Shashidhar which sort of a change you would rather choose? > > Would you go for a change if you know that the change is for the worse > or would you go for a change if you know that the change is for the > good. > > And what if you didn't know what sort of a change it was then! What > would you do? > > Would you rather go for a change which you didn't know was good, or > did not know was worse. Or if you would rather if change were to come > to you then would you not prefer to rather stay where you were and > spent some time in weighing and measuring and thinking and speculating > about the good that this change may do to you or harm you in some way > and apply this change to tests and maybe then proceed with a > confidence of a belief? Wouldn't you rather think before standing in a > queue to give your fingerprints, just because everyone is doing it? > > Didn't they tell us after independence that big dams are good for all? > Didn't they say that all our problems with respect to food, hunger, > water, electricity will go if we have big dams? Didn't they ask us to > put our faith in technology? Well what happened to that promise? We > changed didn't we? and what happened? Are we free of all food, hunger, > water, electricity problems? Do you want to put your belief in the > words of these people again without doubting it even a single bit? > > Warm regards > > Taha > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Rajen. From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Wed May 12 23:03:32 2010 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 18:33:32 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] UID CARD Doubts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Rajendra, I think your definition is not only rich but excellent in description of social categories, it would have be great had you expounded a bit more on it. Your post seems so full of delicate lines of fuzziness. I thoroughly enjoyed reading it. Thank you so much for responding. May I suggest that we could perhaps make it superbly fuzzy if you try to think deeper about all the social categories which you refer. Maybe why not explain each category with every subsequent post. So could we look forward to distilled posts from you on the fuzziness of identifying the following categories: 1. Me 2. Nation 3. Society 4. Intellectuals Warm regards Taha From akmalik45 at yahoo.com Wed May 12 23:49:00 2010 From: akmalik45 at yahoo.com (A.K. Malik) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 11:19:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT In-Reply-To: <847636.71650.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <782035.39906.qm@web112115.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Dear Kaul Sahib, Thanks for the info. Just for your information one of the items in an NDTV Survey on UPA governance is a question: "Do you think 26/11 terrorist Kasab should have got death sentence or life imprisonment? It indicates Death sentence 90.47% Life imprisonment 8.05% Don't know 1.48% Total Votes: 4335 You would kindly see that most people are in favour of death penalty. Regards, (A.K.MALIK) --- On Wed, 5/12/10, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > From: Kshmendra Kaul > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > To: "A.K. Malik" > Cc: "Sarai List" > Date: Wednesday, May 12, 2010, 6:21 PM > Dear AKM >   > Yes you are right. Somewhat right. >   > It was Home Secretary GK PIllai who said that Kasab > could be hanged within 8 months. But he also > indicated that period conditional to "If he does > not file any appeal anywhere". >   > Subsequently Law Minister Veerappa Moily did say that > even if Kasab filed an appeal the case could be and should > be fast-tracked and that Kasab will be hanged within a > year. >   > I was not wrong about the queue system for > clemency-appeals from Death Row. I read about that rule > being followed. (just one example here : http://ibnlive.in.com/news/afzal-sushil-santosh-waiting-on-death-row/114683-3.html?from=trhs ) > >   > Obviously it is not so and even if there is some > unwritten rule (as there seems to have been) then it  > can be circumvented at the choice of the Executive as can be > seen in the remarks of Abhishek Singhvi in this report : http://ibnlive.in.com/news/queue-not-caste-in-stone-in-kasabs-case-cong/114748-37-64.html?from=trhs >   > If the queue systen can be broken for fast-tracking > for one set of reasons (in Kasab's case) then it can > also be broken to delay for another set of reasons (in > Afzal Guru's case). >   > Since, as you know, I am against the Death-Penalty, > therefore I have no interest in exploring either set of > reasons for either or any other case. >   > In an earlier mail I had mentioned 29 people being on > the Death Row with Right of Appeal to President for Clemecy. > I was wrong about that too. It would be more than 50. In > August 2008 itself there were 50 as per response to a RTI > petition. Details here: > http://www.rtiindia.org/forum/6488-50-clemency-pleas-pending-before-prez.html >   > Kshmendra > > > --- On Wed, 5/12/10, A.K. Malik > wrote: > > > From: A.K. Malik > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > To: "Kshmendra Kaul" > > Cc: "Sarai List" > Date: Wednesday, May 12, 2010, 5:16 PM > > > Dear Mr Kaul, >              You > must have seen Times of India newsitem wherein Mr Moilly, > the Law Minister says that Kasab will be hanged in 8 months > time even if he files appeal.What happened to the Queue > system where mercy petitions are waiting? Is he going to > break the Q for poor Kasab and leave Afzal living? Something > is definitely fishy about Afzal being kept alive and not the > Q system you had relied upon. > Regards, > > (A.K.MALIK) > > > --- On Sun, 5/9/10, A.K. Malik > wrote: > > > From: A.K. Malik > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > To: "Kshmendra Kaul" > > Cc: "Sarai List" > > Date: Sunday, May 9, 2010, 11:54 AM > > Dear Mr Kaul, > >               I am > sorry > > to interrupt the thread between you and Mr Bipin, but > after > > reading your post couldn't resist writing back. > > 1&2.There is no harm in having an opinion/point of > view > > different than what is the law in force.So long as it > is not > > changed,the punishment would be based on the Supreme > Court > > verdict that death penalty should be given only in > rarest of > > rare cases and this is what has been done by the Judge > in > > the Kasab case.To give the convicted > person a safeguard > > against a wrong conviction of death penalty,it is > mandatory > > for the sentence to be ratified in the next higher > court, in > > this case Bombay High Court. > > If HC doesn't consider it as rearest of the rare > case then > > it is a  different matter. > > 3.Ask the relatives of the persons killed by the > barbaric > > act of the terrorist who want the fellow to be hanged > in > > public/shot dead without trial even but the law of the > land > > has prevailed and must prevail. > > 4. Everyone on the road knows why Afzal Guru is not > being > > hanged.Anything rest is all bullshit.You have written > > that"There is a rule followed that each one will > await its > > turn for being accepted or being rejected. THIS IS > >  IMPORTANT.",just give a refernce to this > rule so that we > > also become aware.Even a clerk in Govt Office knows > to > > prioritise which file is to be > sent early and which later > > but the Delhi Govt can't make up its mind to send > comments > > on Afzal's petition in 5 years.Even if such a rule > exists > > who stops the Govt from changing it by executive > > directions-because no such rule exists at all. I say > almost > > all such "mercy petitions" have some or the > other contacts > > in political and bureaucracy and are intentionally > being > > dragged. So long live Afzal because the earlier > petitions > > will never be decided in his life time.May be if Kasab > also > > gets the same stature as Afzal, he will also live on. > > Yes, we belong to Gandhiji's land so we don't > do anything > > to people who come and kill us and would rather say > come > > kill us and we will give you immunity from being > hanged and > > even punished and spend crores of rupees for your > safety. > > Long live Indian Politics! > > With regards, > > > > > (A.K.MALIK) > > > > > > --- On Sat, 5/8/10, Kshmendra Kaul > > wrote: > > > > > From: Kshmendra Kaul > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > > To: "Bipin Trivedi" > > > Cc: "sarai-list" > > > Date: Saturday, May 8, 2010, 7:37 PM > > > Dear Bipin > > >   > > > We are > talking in circles now. I will try to make this > > my > > > last post on this thread and you are most welcome > to > > have > > > the final say. > > >   > > > 1. To answer the easier question. Yes, in my > opinion, > > the > > > countries including India, USA, China, Pakistan > and > > > whosoever else, even if they total to 99% of the > > World > > > Population are BARBARIC in having the 'death > penalty' > > as > > > punishment for any crime whatsoever. > > >   > > >     I hope you understand that I > am not calling > > these > > > countries 'barbaric' in their sum-total, > but > > 'barbaric' with > > > regards to death-penalty. > > >   > > > 2. Yes our (Indian) Constitution permits the > 'death > > > penalty' and from my point of view that needs > to be > > changed. > > > And, because I want > to see that changed therefore my > > > argument is not irrelevant but it is a mirror > for > > showing > > > the barbarism of death-penalty existing in the > > Constitution > > > and the blood-lust of those who are scream for > anyone > > at > > > all to be done to death for any crime > whatsoever. > > >   > > > 3. My (and presumably other 'people like > me') opposing > > the > > > 'death penalty' is not meant for saving > one person but > > for > > > saving every person who might be awarded the > death > > sentence > > > whether that person has killed 1 or a hundred or > > thousands. > > >   > > > 4. I tried to explain to you in the last mail why > the > > delay > > > in execution of Afzal Guru is not 'minority > > appeasement' but > > > I seem to have been unsuccessful. > > >   > > >    There > are reportedly 29 'mercy petitions' like > > that > > > of Afzal Guru lying pending with the President > of > > India. > > >   > > >    Afzal Guru was sentenced to > death in 2004. > > >   > > >    Let me now give you some names of > those who were > > > awarded the death sentence before Afzal Guru and > you > > might > > > realise that there is no 'minority > appeasement' in > > play. > > >   > > >   Look at these names: Murugan; G. > > Perarivalan; Chinna > > > Shanthan;  Davinder Singh > > > > Bhullar ;  Simon; Gnanprakasham; Meesekar > > > Madaiah; Bilvendran; Gurdev > Singh; Satnam > > Singh; Para > > > Singh; Sarabjit Singh; Praveen Kumar > > >   > > >    There is a rule followed that each > one will await > > > its > > > turn for being accepted or being rejected. THIS > IS > > > IMPORTANT. You have said that "Legal > experts clearly > > says > > > there is no such law to go with queue for death > > sentence > > > matter." Will you please tell me which > "Legal Experts" > > But, > > > isnt it logical that it should be turn by > turn.  > > >   > > >    Your main argument > for fast-tracking the > > execution of > > > Afzal Guru is "One must separate terrorists > conviction > > with > > > other conviction. Due to our this terror soft > > approach, we > > > are unable to fight terror to the extent what > actually > > we > > > should do." > > >   > > >    You are conveying that putting Afzal > Guru to > > death > > > speedily will deter other terrorists from > attacking > > India. > > > >   > > >    In this I disagree with you and let > me tell you > > why. > > > Bipin there is no evidence at all from any part > of the > > World > > > that executing the 'death sentence' for > any kind of a > > crime > > > leads to decrease in the incidence of that > particular > > crime. > > > If you have any such evidence please do share it. > You > > can > > > take the examples of the very countries you > mentioned > > USA, > > > China, Pakistan and you can add to that all > other > > countries > > > where the 'death penalty' is awarded and > executed. > > >   > > > As I said earlier, you can have the final say. > > >   > > > Kshmendra > > >   > > > > > > --- On Sat, 5/8/10, Bipin Trivedi > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > From: Bipin Trivedi > > > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > > To: "'Kshmendra Kaul'" > > > Cc: "sarai-list" > > > Date: Saturday, May 8, 2010, 10:54 AM > > > > > > > > > Dear Kshemendra, > > > > > > I have not at all missed the central point. > Politician > > go > > > out of law for > > > their selfish > motto, but not for terror conviction. > > What's > > > the reason? Can > > > you tell? Just because of political mileage, > nothing > > else. > > > It's real problem > > > that people like you did not understand this. > Because > > they > > > were punished as > > > terrorists activity and so the special case and > not > > because > > > of their > > > religion. One must separate terrorists > conviction > > with > > > other conviction. Due > > > to our this terror soft approach, we are unable > to > > fight > > > terror to the > > > extent what actually we should do. > > > > > > I have never mentioned that Afsalguru should be > given > > > priority for > > > punishment because he belongs to minority, but > due to > > > terrorist act > > > conviction only. Whoever involved in this and > even in > > the > > > > future any > > > religion should be treated as same for terror > > conviction. > > > > > > Afsalguru case is clear minor appeasement for > not > > executing > > > his conviction > > > and goes wrong message to terror groups and > encourage > > them > > > further. Legal > > > experts clearly says there is no such law to go > with > > queue > > > for death > > > sentence matter. Earlier such execution of death > > sentence > > > carried out, out > > > of turn in the couple of occasions. > > > > > > Constitution of India (SC) has already convicted > > death > > > sentence in 2006, > > > this cabinet for strange reason delaying it. So, > this > > is > > > clear minor > > > appeasement case Dear Kshemendra. This is where > > congress > > > lack will to fight > > > terrorism.  > > > > > > > You personally oppose death sentence is > altogether > > > different issue. Our > > > constitution permits death sentence, so you > argument > > at > > > present is > > > irrelevant of blood thirsty animal from Indian > point > > of > > > view. It is > > > unfortunate that people like you oppose death > sentence > > for > > > the people who is > > > blood thirsty for hundreds or thousands of > people. You > > want > > > to save the life > > > of one person who engaged in blood bath and take > lives > > of > > > 100/1000 of > > > people!!! > > > > > > India is barbaric in your view by adopting death > > sentence > > > than those nation > > > like US, China, Pakistan and many more are also > > barbaric > > > for adopting this > > > law. This is about 70% of world population is > > > barbaric > > > according to you! > > > > > > Thanks > > > Bipin > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Kshmendra Kaul [mailto:kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com] > > > > > > Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 4:10 PM > > > To: Bipin Trivedi > > > Cc: sarai-list > > > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > > > > > Dear Bipin > > >   > > > You have missed the central point. The > Constitution > > of > > > India gives that > > > right to Ajmal Kasab and also to Afzal Guru. > > >   > > > FYI Afzal Guru is not the only one who's > appeal for > > waiver > > > of 'death > > > penalty' is pending with the President. And > most of > > the > > > others are Hindus. > > > > So stop obsessing about 'appeasement of > minorities' in > > this > > > case. > > >   > > > The Constitution of India is not so petty that it > will > > be > > > changed just > > > because you or someone else or even if millions > of > > Indians > > > want to deny > > > Kasab the tiered rights to Courts and appeal to > > President. > > >   > > > Bipin, one should not accuse others of behaving > > > like blood-thirsty animals > > > and then become a blood-thirsty animal > > himself/herself. > > >   > > > Kshmendra > > >   > > >   > > > --- On Fri, 5/7/10, Bipin Trivedi > > > wrote: > > > > > > From: Bipin Trivedi > > > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > > To: "'Kshmendra Kaul'" > > > Cc: "sarai-list" > > > Date: Friday, May 7, 2010, 3:37 PM > > > Dear Kshemendra, > > >   > > > Parliament can and has right to make such > decision if > > show > > > will. But, > > > congress cannot show such will, who prolonged > even > > > Afsalguru conviction > > > keeping pending for so long for their vote bank > > politics. > > > Comparison > with > > > Shah Bano for the reason of vote bank politics > only > > to > > > appealing minor. > > > Reverting shah Bano verdict is classic example > of > > minor > > > appeasement and the > > > same case with Afsalguru and I am fear for Kasav > also > > same > > > thing might > > > happen. > > >   > > > Thanks > > > Bipin > > >   > > >   > > >   > > >   > > > From: Kshmendra Kaul [mailto:kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com] > > > > > > Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 1:35 PM > > > To: sarai-list; Bipin Trivedi > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > >   > > > Dear Bipin > > >   > > > A. I am against the death penalty for anyone for > any > > crime > > > whatsoever. I > > > believe the 'death penalty' is > awarded in barbaric > > > societies, and yes, India > > > is still barbaric in many ways. > > >   > > > B. You might disagree on the above. That does > not > > change > > > the opportunity > > > allowed in India for anyone convicted in a crime > in a > > Lower > > > Court to take > > > the matter to a Higher Cour.  > > >   > > >      Since it is a question > of a 'death penalty', > > Kasab > > > has the right to > > > have his case heard by the Higher Courts right > upto > > the > > > Supreme Court. After > > > that he has the right to appeal to the President > for > > waiver > > > of the 'death > > > penalty'. The Constitution of India provides > that > > right. > > > You cannot compare > > > > Civil Law of the Shah Bano case witha 'death > penalty' > > being > > > awarded.  > > >   > > >      No one can take that > right away from Kasab. > > >   > > > Kshmendra > > >    > > >   > > > --- On Thu, 5/6/10, Bipin Trivedi > > > wrote: > > >   > > > From: Bipin Trivedi > > > Subject: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > > To: "sarai-list" > > > Date: Thursday, May 6, 2010, 3:33 > PM > > > AS EXPECTED, KASAV RIGHTLY GOT DEATH SENTENCE. > > >   > > > Though terrorist's Kasav case was crystal > clear, but > > still > > > we have gone for > > > about 17 months fair trial and proved that how > > transparent > > > our judicial > > > system is unlike Pakistan. But, after this trial > and > > > judgment, he should not > > > allow to appeal in the higher court and should > be > > hanged in > > > public > > > immediately without further judicial procedure. > if > > Indira > > > Gandhi (ex PM) > > > deny to obey court verdict and neglect law and > Shah > > Banu > > > case was revert out > > > of law by parliament than why cannot this? India > > should > > > show the world that > > > country cannot compromise in integrity and take > hard > > action > > > if required like > > > open public > death sentence. > > >   > > > Thanks > > > Bipin > > >   > > >   > > >   > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the > > > city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > with subscribe > > > in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > >   > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >       > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the > > > city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > with subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From anansi1 at earthlink.net Thu May 13 00:40:47 2010 From: anansi1 at earthlink.net (Paul D. Miller) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 20:10:47 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Hey from Paul/Dj Spooky - Tate Modern, Dziga Vertov In-Reply-To: <782035.39906.qm@web112115.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <782035.39906.qm@web112115.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <78BC5378-82E1-4BB7-A8D7-9B7CD29B617A@earthlink.net> Hey good people - I'm just getting back to the UK for a project I have coming up at the Tate Modern, and I'd like to extend an invitation to you all to come check it out. It's a live Ipad/iPhone rescore of the early Dziga Vertov film "Kino-Glaz" - "the cinema eye" I worked with the Russian Museum of the History of Soviet Cinema to get a solid, high definition print of the film, and we're screening it on May 15, 2010 as one of the headlining events for the Tate Modern's 10th Anniversary. Thurston Moore from Sonic Youth is also participating. The Film is on the DVD that accompanies my recent project "The Secret Song" - it's a stunning high definition print of this rare gemstone of a film. The show is sold out at about 6,000 people coming, and they're adding extra screens (as far as I know) so if you can't get in, there will be over flow capacity. I hope you can make it. If you need guest list I have a some spaces if you get back to me soon! Paul aka Dj Spooky All details for the event are here: http://www.djspooky.com/articles/vertov.php And http://www.tate.org.uk/modern/eventseducation/musicperform/21841.htm >>> >>> Paul From anivar.aravind at gmail.com Thu May 13 09:20:28 2010 From: anivar.aravind at gmail.com (Anivar Aravind) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 22:50:28 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Halt the Offensive Against People and End Militarisation of the Forests Message-ID: *Halt the Offensive Against People and End Militarisation of the Forests * *Joint Statement of Forest People's Movements* http://orissaconcerns.net/2010/05/end-militarisation-of-the-forests/ Yesterday, the police have killed one person in Kalinganagar and critically injured at least thirty more; at the proposed POSCO plant site in Jagatsinghpur, Orissa, 25 platoons of police have been deployed to crush the people defending their land. They expect an attack tomorrow or the day after. As national platforms of democratic forest movements, with more than 200 organisational members spread across the country, we unequivocally condemn this brutality. But such atrocities are not occurring in isolation. Operation Green Hunt and the increasing miitarisation of the conflict in central India is wreaking devastation in our homelands.and closing the space for democratic struggles. We first reiterate the following facts, to expose the myths being promoted by the government: - *In all the areas where Operation Green Hunt is underway, aside from individual atrocities, security forces are now preventing people from entering the forest, cultivating their lands or collecting minor forest produce. The numbers that are threatened with starvation or disease as a result is not even known.** *These facts have been ignored even as the tragic loss of lives in Maoist attacks have received a lot of attention. How can an offensive with such results be justified? - *An offensive in the name of the “rule of law” has been launched in areas where the government has never shown the slightest respect for the law **. * Under the law, land acquisition in Scheduled Areas is subject to consultation with the gram sabha (village assembly); diversion of forest land in all forests is subject to the consent of the gram sabha; and people have rights over village common lands, forests, water bodies and grazing areas. *Can the government name a single place in the country where the rights of people over forests and lands have been fully recognised and respected? Can it name a single “development” project in the forest areas that has complied with the requirements of law? *Rather, in Madhya Pradesh and Chhattisgarh alone, after 2006 the government has illegally granted in principle or final clearances for the use of 15,411 hectares of forest land to various “projects”. - *The government's true intentions are revealed by their response to democratic movements in the majority of forest areas, where the CPI(Maoist) does not exist.* As an indicator, in just the few weeks between March 20 and April 20, activists in Gujarat, Uttar Pradesh, Chhattisgarh, Assam and West Bengal were arrested or attacked by police for the crime of standing up for the law and demanding legal rights. The protesters at POSCO and many other places, who have no link whatsoever with the Maoists, are being attacked. These are examples of a trend that has become far worse with Operation Green Hunt, under which the label “Maoist” is used to justify all kinds of brutality. The Home Minister's latest statement threatening anyone “supporting Maoism” with jail is clearly aimed at justifying yet more such brutality. - *The conflicts in forest areas, whether with the CPI(Maoist) or with other movements, have nothing to do with “security” or “development”.** *What is at stake is the right of people to control their ecology, their production systems and their lives. Can a community lead a life of dignity when they are harassed, beaten or killed every time they cultivate forest land, collect minor forest produce or protest evictions? People are not demanding *welfare*; they are struggling for the right to live with freedom and dignity.* This is the true meaning of security, development and the rule of justice. * - *It is clear that the government's offensive is driven by more obvious interests – resource grabs (in water, minerals and land) have become a key source of profits.* As the Maheshwar Dam, Vedanta or POSCO projects were found to break the law, the government has scrambled to bend or break the law itself to favour the corporates. When the Forest Department promotes illegal policies in international negotiations on climate change (i.e. the REDD agreement), these are not just condoned but promoted as a point of pride. Meanwhile, people's rights over minor forest produce, forest land and common lands are frustrated at every turn by official violations of the Forest Rights Act. Clearly this is why the government now wants to crush all resistance, whether it is organised by the CPI(Maoist) or not. *Beyond Green Hunt: A Call for Democratic Space* *We believe in and stand for the mass democratic struggle of the working people for social transformation. From this perspective, **the damage is not limited to this offensive and the devastation it is wreaking.* More insidious but much longer lasting is the destructive impact this militarisation is having on the democratic space for people's struggles. This militarisation is not limited to Operation Green Hunt. Even outside this offensive, the government has consistently used its force against all democratic formations and those who speak the language of people's rights; it has thrown the Constitution to the winds. The CPI(Maoist) has also engaged in indiscriminate physical attacks against those who are of a different political allegiance, and has often shown little tolerance for those who are engaged in other movements or who are critical of them.* **T**he turning of vast areas of the country into war zones, where all else is subordinated to the perceived military needs of the government or the CPI(Maoist), is unacceptable**.* It constitutes a betrayal of the values that both the CPI(Maoist) and the government claim to believe in. For this reason above all, there is an urgent need at this moment to restore basic democratic norms in the conflict zones. *Our Call:* 1. The paramilitary forces must be withdrawn and the salwa judum, as well as other similar private militias in other states, must be disbanded. Public facilities – schools, clinics, etc. - must be treated as out of bounds for the conflict. 2. The government must respect the rights of people over their lands, forest produce and community forest resources as provided by the Constitution, the Panchayats (Extension to Scheduled Areas) Act, the Forest Rights Act and other such laws. It must comply with the requirements under these Acts relating to the consent of the community prior to diversion or acquisition of land. 3. The security forces must stop interfering with the rights of people to cultivate their fields, go to markets and engage in their livelihood activities. 4. Illegal arrests, fake encounters and police murders must be halted immediately. 5. The CPI(Maoist) should make clear its position on the activities of other political forces in the conflict areas. It should respect the right of the people to be members of other parties, including opposing parties, or other movements and to otherwise exercise their democratic rights. 6. The right of refugees and the displaced to return home, especially in Dantewada, must be respected by the security forces and their private militias. From aliens at dataone.in Thu May 13 10:58:11 2010 From: aliens at dataone.in (Bipin Trivedi) Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 10:58:11 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT Message-ID: <000301caf25d$148dfb50$3da9f1f0$@in> Dear Kshemendra, You are against the death penalty that is understandable as your personnel view, but why you defend government on the queue system when as such no such law exists. By mentioning both website you tried to convince about the rule is there for queue system. Both the site you mentioned does not mentioned any rule. Our main argument is this only that there is no such rule and one must take decision with their own instinct which is to be execute first. If you ask political/law illiterate person that the man convicted for parliament attack should be handled more seriously with priority. Educated and politically well aware people like you does not understand this is strange thing. But, unnecessarily defend the government for their politically motivated act for the political gain. Thanks Bipin -----Original Message----- From: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net [mailto:reader-list-bounces at sarai.net] On Behalf Of Kshmendra Kaul Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2010 6:21 PM To: A.K. Malik Cc: Sarai List Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT Dear AKM Yes you are right. Somewhat right. It was Home Secretary GK PIllai who said that Kasab could be hanged within 8 months. But he also indicated that period conditional to "If he does not file any appeal anywhere". Subsequently Law Minister Veerappa Moily did say that even if Kasab filed an appeal the case could be and should be fast-tracked and that Kasab will be hanged within a year. I was not wrong about the queue system for clemency-appeals from Death Row. I read about that rule being followed. (just one example here : http://ibnlive.in.com/news/afzal-sushil-santosh-waiting-on-death-row/114683-3.html?from=trhs ) Obviously it is not so and even if there is some unwritten rule (as there seems to have been) then it can be circumvented at the choice of the Executive as can be seen in the remarks of Abhishek Singhvi in this report : http://ibnlive.in.com/news/queue-not-caste-in-stone-in-kasabs-case-cong/114748-37-64.html?from=trhs If the queue systen can be broken for fast-tracking for one set of reasons (in Kasab's case) then it can also be broken to delay for another set of reasons (in Afzal Guru's case). Since, as you know, I am against the Death-Penalty, therefore I have no interest in exploring either set of reasons for either or any other case. In an earlier mail I had mentioned 29 people being on the Death Row with Right of Appeal to President for Clemecy. I was wrong about that too. It would be more than 50. In August 2008 itself there were 50 as per response to a RTI petition. Details here: http://www.rtiindia.org/forum/6488-50-clemency-pleas-pending-before-prez.html Kshmendra --- On Wed, 5/12/10, A.K. Malik wrote: From: A.K. Malik Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT To: "Kshmendra Kaul" Cc: "Sarai List" Date: Wednesday, May 12, 2010, 5:16 PM Dear Mr Kaul, You must have seen Times of India newsitem wherein Mr Moilly, the Law Minister says that Kasab will be hanged in 8 months time even if he files appeal.What happened to the Queue system where mercy petitions are waiting? Is he going to break the Q for poor Kasab and leave Afzal living? Something is definitely fishy about Afzal being kept alive and not the Q system you had relied upon. Regards, (A.K.MALIK) --- On Sun, 5/9/10, A.K. Malik wrote: > From: A.K. Malik > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > To: "Kshmendra Kaul" > Cc: "Sarai List" > Date: Sunday, May 9, 2010, 11:54 AM > Dear Mr Kaul, > I am sorry > to interrupt the thread between you and Mr Bipin, but after > reading your post couldn't resist writing back. > 1&2.There is no harm in having an opinion/point of view > different than what is the law in force.So long as it is not > changed,the punishment would be based on the Supreme Court > verdict that death penalty should be given only in rarest of > rare cases and this is what has been done by the Judge in > the Kasab case.To give the convicted person a safeguard > against a wrong conviction of death penalty,it is mandatory > for the sentence to be ratified in the next higher court, in > this case Bombay High Court. > If HC doesn't consider it as rearest of the rare case then > it is a different matter. > 3.Ask the relatives of the persons killed by the barbaric > act of the terrorist who want the fellow to be hanged in > public/shot dead without trial even but the law of the land > has prevailed and must prevail. > 4. Everyone on the road knows why Afzal Guru is not being > hanged.Anything rest is all bullshit.You have written > that"There is a rule followed that each one will await its > turn for being accepted or being rejected. THIS IS > IMPORTANT.",just give a refernce to this rule so that we > also become aware.Even a clerk in Govt Office knows to > prioritise which file is to be sent early and which later > but the Delhi Govt can't make up its mind to send comments > on Afzal's petition in 5 years.Even if such a rule exists > who stops the Govt from changing it by executive > directions-because no such rule exists at all. I say almost > all such "mercy petitions" have some or the other contacts > in political and bureaucracy and are intentionally being > dragged. So long live Afzal because the earlier petitions > will never be decided in his life time.May be if Kasab also > gets the same stature as Afzal, he will also live on. > Yes, we belong to Gandhiji's land so we don't do anything > to people who come and kill us and would rather say come > kill us and we will give you immunity from being hanged and > even punished and spend crores of rupees for your safety. > Long live Indian Politics! > With regards, > > (A.K.MALIK) > > > --- On Sat, 5/8/10, Kshmendra Kaul > wrote: > > > From: Kshmendra Kaul > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > To: "Bipin Trivedi" > > Cc: "sarai-list" > > Date: Saturday, May 8, 2010, 7:37 PM > > Dear Bipin > > > > We are talking in circles now. I will try to make this > my > > last post on this thread and you are most welcome to > have > > the final say. > > > > 1. To answer the easier question. Yes, in my opinion, > the > > countries including India, USA, China, Pakistan and > > whosoever else, even if they total to 99% of the > World > > Population are BARBARIC in having the 'death penalty' > as > > punishment for any crime whatsoever. > > > > I hope you understand that I am not calling > these > > countries 'barbaric' in their sum-total, but > 'barbaric' with > > regards to death-penalty. > > > > 2. Yes our (Indian) Constitution permits the 'death > > penalty' and from my point of view that needs to be > changed. > > And, because I want to see that changed therefore my > > argument is not irrelevant but it is a mirror for > showing > > the barbarism of death-penalty existing in the > Constitution > > and the blood-lust of those who are scream for anyone > at > > all to be done to death for any crime whatsoever. > > > > 3. My (and presumably other 'people like me') opposing > the > > 'death penalty' is not meant for saving one person but > for > > saving every person who might be awarded the death > sentence > > whether that person has killed 1 or a hundred or > thousands. > > > > 4. I tried to explain to you in the last mail why the > delay > > in execution of Afzal Guru is not 'minority > appeasement' but > > I seem to have been unsuccessful. > > > > There are reportedly 29 'mercy petitions' like > that > > of Afzal Guru lying pending with the President of > India. > > > > Afzal Guru was sentenced to death in 2004. > > > > Let me now give you some names of those who were > > awarded the death sentence before Afzal Guru and you > might > > realise that there is no 'minority appeasement' in > play. > > > > Look at these names: Murugan; G. > Perarivalan; Chinna > > Shanthan; Davinder Singh > > Bhullar ; Simon; Gnanprakasham; Meesekar > > Madaiah; Bilvendran; Gurdev Singh; Satnam > Singh; Para > > Singh; Sarabjit Singh; Praveen Kumar > > > > There is a rule followed that each one will await > its > > turn for being accepted or being rejected. THIS IS > > IMPORTANT. You have said that "Legal experts clearly > says > > there is no such law to go with queue for death > sentence > > matter." Will you please tell me which "Legal Experts" > But, > > isnt it logical that it should be turn by turn. > > > > Your main argument for fast-tracking the > execution of > > Afzal Guru is "One must separate terrorists conviction > with > > other conviction. Due to our this terror soft > approach, we > > are unable to fight terror to the extent what actually > we > > should do." > > > > You are conveying that putting Afzal Guru to > death > > speedily will deter other terrorists from attacking > India. > > > > In this I disagree with you and let me tell you > why. > > Bipin there is no evidence at all from any part of the > World > > that executing the 'death sentence' for any kind of a > crime > > leads to decrease in the incidence of that particular > crime. > > If you have any such evidence please do share it. You > can > > take the examples of the very countries you mentioned > USA, > > China, Pakistan and you can add to that all other > countries > > where the 'death penalty' is awarded and executed. > > > > As I said earlier, you can have the final say. > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > --- On Sat, 5/8/10, Bipin Trivedi > > wrote: > > > > > > From: Bipin Trivedi > > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > To: "'Kshmendra Kaul'" > > Cc: "sarai-list" > > Date: Saturday, May 8, 2010, 10:54 AM > > > > > > Dear Kshemendra, > > > > I have not at all missed the central point. Politician > go > > out of law for > > their selfish motto, but not for terror conviction. > What's > > the reason? Can > > you tell? Just because of political mileage, nothing > else. > > It's real problem > > that people like you did not understand this. Because > they > > were punished as > > terrorists activity and so the special case and not > because > > of their > > religion. One must separate terrorists conviction > with > > other conviction. Due > > to our this terror soft approach, we are unable to > fight > > terror to the > > extent what actually we should do. > > > > I have never mentioned that Afsalguru should be given > > priority for > > punishment because he belongs to minority, but due to > > terrorist act > > conviction only. Whoever involved in this and even in > the > > future any > > religion should be treated as same for terror > conviction. > > > > Afsalguru case is clear minor appeasement for not > executing > > his conviction > > and goes wrong message to terror groups and encourage > them > > further. Legal > > experts clearly says there is no such law to go with > queue > > for death > > sentence matter. Earlier such execution of death > sentence > > carried out, out > > of turn in the couple of occasions. > > > > Constitution of India (SC) has already convicted > death > > sentence in 2006, > > this cabinet for strange reason delaying it. So, this > is > > clear minor > > appeasement case Dear Kshemendra. This is where > congress > > lack will to fight > > terrorism. > > > > You personally oppose death sentence is altogether > > different issue. Our > > constitution permits death sentence, so you argument > at > > present is > > irrelevant of blood thirsty animal from Indian point > of > > view. It is > > unfortunate that people like you oppose death sentence > for > > the people who is > > blood thirsty for hundreds or thousands of people. You > want > > to save the life > > of one person who engaged in blood bath and take lives > of > > 100/1000 of > > people!!! > > > > India is barbaric in your view by adopting death > sentence > > than those nation > > like US, China, Pakistan and many more are also > barbaric > > for adopting this > > law. This is about 70% of world population is > barbaric > > according to you! > > > > Thanks > > Bipin > > > > > > > > From: Kshmendra Kaul [mailto:kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com] > > > > Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 4:10 PM > > To: Bipin Trivedi > > Cc: sarai-list > > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > > > Dear Bipin > > > > You have missed the central point. The Constitution > of > > India gives that > > right to Ajmal Kasab and also to Afzal Guru. > > > > FYI Afzal Guru is not the only one who's appeal for > waiver > > of 'death > > penalty' is pending with the President. And most of > the > > others are Hindus. > > So stop obsessing about 'appeasement of minorities' in > this > > case. > > > > The Constitution of India is not so petty that it will > be > > changed just > > because you or someone else or even if millions of > Indians > > want to deny > > Kasab the tiered rights to Courts and appeal to > President. > > > > Bipin, one should not accuse others of behaving > > like blood-thirsty animals > > and then become a blood-thirsty animal > himself/herself. > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > --- On Fri, 5/7/10, Bipin Trivedi > > wrote: > > > > From: Bipin Trivedi > > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > To: "'Kshmendra Kaul'" > > Cc: "sarai-list" > > Date: Friday, May 7, 2010, 3:37 PM > > Dear Kshemendra, > > > > Parliament can and has right to make such decision if > show > > will. But, > > congress cannot show such will, who prolonged even > > Afsalguru conviction > > keeping pending for so long for their vote bank > politics. > > Comparison with > > Shah Bano for the reason of vote bank politics only > to > > appealing minor. > > Reverting shah Bano verdict is classic example of > minor > > appeasement and the > > same case with Afsalguru and I am fear for Kasav also > same > > thing might > > happen. > > > > Thanks > > Bipin > > > > > > > > > > From: Kshmendra Kaul [mailto:kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com] > > > > Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 1:35 PM > > To: sarai-list; Bipin Trivedi > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > > > Dear Bipin > > > > A. I am against the death penalty for anyone for any > crime > > whatsoever. I > > believe the 'death penalty' is awarded in barbaric > > societies, and yes, India > > is still barbaric in many ways. > > > > B. You might disagree on the above. That does not > change > > the opportunity > > allowed in India for anyone convicted in a crime in a > Lower > > Court to take > > the matter to a Higher Cour. > > > > Since it is a question of a 'death penalty', > Kasab > > has the right to > > have his case heard by the Higher Courts right upto > the > > Supreme Court. After > > that he has the right to appeal to the President for > waiver > > of the 'death > > penalty'. The Constitution of India provides that > right. > > You cannot compare > > Civil Law of the Shah Bano case witha 'death penalty' > being > > awarded. > > > > No one can take that right away from Kasab. > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > --- On Thu, 5/6/10, Bipin Trivedi > > wrote: > > > > From: Bipin Trivedi > > Subject: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > To: "sarai-list" > > Date: Thursday, May 6, 2010, 3:33 PM > > AS EXPECTED, KASAV RIGHTLY GOT DEATH SENTENCE. > > > > Though terrorist's Kasav case was crystal clear, but > still > > we have gone for > > about 17 months fair trial and proved that how > transparent > > our judicial > > system is unlike Pakistan. But, after this trial and > > judgment, he should not > > allow to appeal in the higher court and should be > hanged in > > public > > immediately without further judicial procedure. if > Indira > > Gandhi (ex PM) > > deny to obey court verdict and neglect law and Shah > Banu > > case was revert out > > of law by parliament than why cannot this? India > should > > show the world that > > country cannot compromise in integrity and take hard > action > > if required like > > open public death sentence. > > > > Thanks > > Bipin > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > > city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with subscribe > > in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > > city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From shashidhar at butterfliesindia.org Thu May 13 11:24:01 2010 From: shashidhar at butterfliesindia.org (Shashidhar) Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 11:24:01 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT In-Reply-To: <0E48449D8C274507A533E67270333938@butterfliesdelhi.local> References: <0E48449D8C274507A533E67270333938@butterfliesdelhi.local> Message-ID: <000001caf260$af9a2ee0$0ece8ca0$@butterfliesindia.org> I remember a comment from soli sorabjee on the television that there was no queue system and he gave an example of Indira Gandhi assassination where the culprit was hanged within six or seven months of sentencing. He also said that the death sentence was not carried out for a long time after the hanging of Indira Gandhi assassin. Any way who in the civilised world wants people - civilian and terrorist kind to be killed in their home land.. turn him over to the land where he came from may be find peace there and be worshipped as a hero.. Shashi -----Original Message----- From: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net [mailto:reader-list-bounces at sarai.net] On Behalf Of Bipin Trivedi Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2010 11:16 AM To: sarai-list Subject: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT Dear Kshemendra, You are against the death penalty that is understandable as your personnel view, but why you defend government on the queue system when as such no such law exists. By mentioning both website you tried to convince about the rule is there for queue system. Both the site you mentioned does not mentioned any rule. Our main argument is this only that there is no such rule and one must take decision with their own instinct which is to be execute first. If you ask political/law illiterate person that the man convicted for parliament attack should be handled more seriously with priority. Educated and politically well aware people like you does not understand this is strange thing. But, unnecessarily defend the government for their politically motivated act for the political gain. Thanks Bipin -----Original Message----- From: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net [mailto:reader-list-bounces at sarai.net] On Behalf Of Kshmendra Kaul Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2010 6:21 PM To: A.K. Malik Cc: Sarai List Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT Dear AKM Yes you are right. Somewhat right. It was Home Secretary GK PIllai who said that Kasab could be hanged within 8 months. But he also indicated that period conditional to "If he does not file any appeal anywhere". Subsequently Law Minister Veerappa Moily did say that even if Kasab filed an appeal the case could be and should be fast-tracked and that Kasab will be hanged within a year. I was not wrong about the queue system for clemency-appeals from Death Row. I read about that rule being followed. (just one example here : http://ibnlive.in.com/news/afzal-sushil-santosh-waiting-on-death-row/114683-3.html?from=trhs ) Obviously it is not so and even if there is some unwritten rule (as there seems to have been) then it can be circumvented at the choice of the Executive as can be seen in the remarks of Abhishek Singhvi in this report : http://ibnlive.in.com/news/queue-not-caste-in-stone-in-kasabs-case-cong/114748-37-64.html?from=trhs If the queue systen can be broken for fast-tracking for one set of reasons (in Kasab's case) then it can also be broken to delay for another set of reasons (in Afzal Guru's case). Since, as you know, I am against the Death-Penalty, therefore I have no interest in exploring either set of reasons for either or any other case. In an earlier mail I had mentioned 29 people being on the Death Row with Right of Appeal to President for Clemecy. I was wrong about that too. It would be more than 50. In August 2008 itself there were 50 as per response to a RTI petition. Details here: http://www.rtiindia.org/forum/6488-50-clemency-pleas-pending-before-prez.html Kshmendra --- On Wed, 5/12/10, A.K. Malik wrote: From: A.K. Malik Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT To: "Kshmendra Kaul" Cc: "Sarai List" Date: Wednesday, May 12, 2010, 5:16 PM Dear Mr Kaul, You must have seen Times of India newsitem wherein Mr Moilly, the Law Minister says that Kasab will be hanged in 8 months time even if he files appeal.What happened to the Queue system where mercy petitions are waiting? Is he going to break the Q for poor Kasab and leave Afzal living? Something is definitely fishy about Afzal being kept alive and not the Q system you had relied upon. Regards, (A.K.MALIK) --- On Sun, 5/9/10, A.K. Malik wrote: > From: A.K. Malik > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > To: "Kshmendra Kaul" > Cc: "Sarai List" > Date: Sunday, May 9, 2010, 11:54 AM > Dear Mr Kaul, > I am sorry > to interrupt the thread between you and Mr Bipin, but after reading > your post couldn't resist writing back. > 1&2.There is no harm in having an opinion/point of view different than > what is the law in force.So long as it is not changed,the punishment > would be based on the Supreme Court verdict that death penalty should > be given only in rarest of rare cases and this is what has been done > by the Judge in the Kasab case.To give the convicted person a > safeguard against a wrong conviction of death penalty,it is mandatory > for the sentence to be ratified in the next higher court, in this case > Bombay High Court. > If HC doesn't consider it as rearest of the rare case then it is a > different matter. > 3.Ask the relatives of the persons killed by the barbaric act of the > terrorist who want the fellow to be hanged in public/shot dead without > trial even but the law of the land has prevailed and must prevail. > 4. Everyone on the road knows why Afzal Guru is not being > hanged.Anything rest is all bullshit.You have written that"There is a > rule followed that each one will await its turn for being accepted or > being rejected. THIS IS IMPORTANT.",just give a refernce to this rule > so that we also become aware.Even a clerk in Govt Office knows to > prioritise which file is to be sent early and which later but the > Delhi Govt can't make up its mind to send comments on Afzal's petition > in 5 years.Even if such a rule exists who stops the Govt from changing > it by executive directions-because no such rule exists at all. I say > almost all such "mercy petitions" have some or the other contacts in > political and bureaucracy and are intentionally being dragged. So long > live Afzal because the earlier petitions will never be decided in his > life time.May be if Kasab also gets the same stature as Afzal, he will > also live on. > Yes, we belong to Gandhiji's land so we don't do anything to people > who come and kill us and would rather say come kill us and we will > give you immunity from being hanged and even punished and spend crores > of rupees for your safety. > Long live Indian Politics! > With regards, > > (A.K.MALIK) > > > --- On Sat, 5/8/10, Kshmendra Kaul > wrote: > > > From: Kshmendra Kaul > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > To: "Bipin Trivedi" > > Cc: "sarai-list" > > Date: Saturday, May 8, 2010, 7:37 PM Dear Bipin > > > > We are talking in circles now. I will try to make this > my > > last post on this thread and you are most welcome to > have > > the final say. > > > > 1. To answer the easier question. Yes, in my opinion, > the > > countries including India, USA, China, Pakistan and whosoever else, > > even if they total to 99% of the > World > > Population are BARBARIC in having the 'death penalty' > as > > punishment for any crime whatsoever. > > > > I hope you understand that I am not calling > these > > countries 'barbaric' in their sum-total, but > 'barbaric' with > > regards to death-penalty. > > > > 2. Yes our (Indian) Constitution permits the 'death penalty' and > > from my point of view that needs to be > changed. > > And, because I want to see that changed therefore my argument is not > > irrelevant but it is a mirror for > showing > > the barbarism of death-penalty existing in the > Constitution > > and the blood-lust of those who are scream for anyone > at > > all to be done to death for any crime whatsoever. > > > > 3. My (and presumably other 'people like me') opposing > the > > 'death penalty' is not meant for saving one person but > for > > saving every person who might be awarded the death > sentence > > whether that person has killed 1 or a hundred or > thousands. > > > > 4. I tried to explain to you in the last mail why the > delay > > in execution of Afzal Guru is not 'minority > appeasement' but > > I seem to have been unsuccessful. > > > > There are reportedly 29 'mercy petitions' like > that > > of Afzal Guru lying pending with the President of > India. > > > > Afzal Guru was sentenced to death in 2004. > > > > Let me now give you some names of those who were awarded the > > death sentence before Afzal Guru and you > might > > realise that there is no 'minority appeasement' in > play. > > > > Look at these names: Murugan; G. > Perarivalan; Chinna > > Shanthan; Davinder Singh > > Bhullar ; Simon; Gnanprakasham; Meesekar Madaiah; Bilvendran; > > Gurdev Singh; Satnam > Singh; Para > > Singh; Sarabjit Singh; Praveen Kumar > > > > There is a rule followed that each one will await > its > > turn for being accepted or being rejected. THIS IS IMPORTANT. You > > have said that "Legal experts clearly > says > > there is no such law to go with queue for death > sentence > > matter." Will you please tell me which "Legal Experts" > But, > > isnt it logical that it should be turn by turn. > > > > Your main argument for fast-tracking the > execution of > > Afzal Guru is "One must separate terrorists conviction > with > > other conviction. Due to our this terror soft > approach, we > > are unable to fight terror to the extent what actually > we > > should do." > > > > You are conveying that putting Afzal Guru to > death > > speedily will deter other terrorists from attacking > India. > > > > In this I disagree with you and let me tell you > why. > > Bipin there is no evidence at all from any part of the > World > > that executing the 'death sentence' for any kind of a > crime > > leads to decrease in the incidence of that particular > crime. > > If you have any such evidence please do share it. You > can > > take the examples of the very countries you mentioned > USA, > > China, Pakistan and you can add to that all other > countries > > where the 'death penalty' is awarded and executed. > > > > As I said earlier, you can have the final say. > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > --- On Sat, 5/8/10, Bipin Trivedi > > wrote: > > > > > > From: Bipin Trivedi > > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > To: "'Kshmendra Kaul'" > > Cc: "sarai-list" > > Date: Saturday, May 8, 2010, 10:54 AM > > > > > > Dear Kshemendra, > > > > I have not at all missed the central point. Politician > go > > out of law for > > their selfish motto, but not for terror conviction. > What's > > the reason? Can > > you tell? Just because of political mileage, nothing > else. > > It's real problem > > that people like you did not understand this. Because > they > > were punished as > > terrorists activity and so the special case and not > because > > of their > > religion. One must separate terrorists conviction > with > > other conviction. Due > > to our this terror soft approach, we are unable to > fight > > terror to the > > extent what actually we should do. > > > > I have never mentioned that Afsalguru should be given priority for > > punishment because he belongs to minority, but due to terrorist act > > conviction only. Whoever involved in this and even in > the > > future any > > religion should be treated as same for terror > conviction. > > > > Afsalguru case is clear minor appeasement for not > executing > > his conviction > > and goes wrong message to terror groups and encourage > them > > further. Legal > > experts clearly says there is no such law to go with > queue > > for death > > sentence matter. Earlier such execution of death > sentence > > carried out, out > > of turn in the couple of occasions. > > > > Constitution of India (SC) has already convicted > death > > sentence in 2006, > > this cabinet for strange reason delaying it. So, this > is > > clear minor > > appeasement case Dear Kshemendra. This is where > congress > > lack will to fight > > terrorism. > > > > You personally oppose death sentence is altogether different issue. > > Our constitution permits death sentence, so you argument > at > > present is > > irrelevant of blood thirsty animal from Indian point > of > > view. It is > > unfortunate that people like you oppose death sentence > for > > the people who is > > blood thirsty for hundreds or thousands of people. You > want > > to save the life > > of one person who engaged in blood bath and take lives > of > > 100/1000 of > > people!!! > > > > India is barbaric in your view by adopting death > sentence > > than those nation > > like US, China, Pakistan and many more are also > barbaric > > for adopting this > > law. This is about 70% of world population is > barbaric > > according to you! > > > > Thanks > > Bipin > > > > > > > > From: Kshmendra Kaul [mailto:kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com] > > > > Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 4:10 PM > > To: Bipin Trivedi > > Cc: sarai-list > > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > > > Dear Bipin > > > > You have missed the central point. The Constitution > of > > India gives that > > right to Ajmal Kasab and also to Afzal Guru. > > > > FYI Afzal Guru is not the only one who's appeal for > waiver > > of 'death > > penalty' is pending with the President. And most of > the > > others are Hindus. > > So stop obsessing about 'appeasement of minorities' in > this > > case. > > > > The Constitution of India is not so petty that it will > be > > changed just > > because you or someone else or even if millions of > Indians > > want to deny > > Kasab the tiered rights to Courts and appeal to > President. > > > > Bipin, one should not accuse others of behaving like blood-thirsty > > animals and then become a blood-thirsty animal > himself/herself. > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > --- On Fri, 5/7/10, Bipin Trivedi > > wrote: > > > > From: Bipin Trivedi > > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > To: "'Kshmendra Kaul'" > > Cc: "sarai-list" > > Date: Friday, May 7, 2010, 3:37 PM > > Dear Kshemendra, > > > > Parliament can and has right to make such decision if > show > > will. But, > > congress cannot show such will, who prolonged even Afsalguru > > conviction keeping pending for so long for their vote bank > politics. > > Comparison with > > Shah Bano for the reason of vote bank politics only > to > > appealing minor. > > Reverting shah Bano verdict is classic example of > minor > > appeasement and the > > same case with Afsalguru and I am fear for Kasav also > same > > thing might > > happen. > > > > Thanks > > Bipin > > > > > > > > > > From: Kshmendra Kaul [mailto:kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com] > > > > Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 1:35 PM > > To: sarai-list; Bipin Trivedi > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > > > Dear Bipin > > > > A. I am against the death penalty for anyone for any > crime > > whatsoever. I > > believe the 'death penalty' is awarded in barbaric societies, and > > yes, India is still barbaric in many ways. > > > > B. You might disagree on the above. That does not > change > > the opportunity > > allowed in India for anyone convicted in a crime in a > Lower > > Court to take > > the matter to a Higher Cour. > > > > Since it is a question of a 'death penalty', > Kasab > > has the right to > > have his case heard by the Higher Courts right upto > the > > Supreme Court. After > > that he has the right to appeal to the President for > waiver > > of the 'death > > penalty'. The Constitution of India provides that > right. > > You cannot compare > > Civil Law of the Shah Bano case witha 'death penalty' > being > > awarded. > > > > No one can take that right away from Kasab. > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > --- On Thu, 5/6/10, Bipin Trivedi > > wrote: > > > > From: Bipin Trivedi > > Subject: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > To: "sarai-list" > > Date: Thursday, May 6, 2010, 3:33 PM AS EXPECTED, KASAV RIGHTLY GOT > > DEATH SENTENCE. > > > > Though terrorist's Kasav case was crystal clear, but > still > > we have gone for > > about 17 months fair trial and proved that how > transparent > > our judicial > > system is unlike Pakistan. But, after this trial and judgment, he > > should not allow to appeal in the higher court and should be > hanged in > > public > > immediately without further judicial procedure. if > Indira > > Gandhi (ex PM) > > deny to obey court verdict and neglect law and Shah > Banu > > case was revert out > > of law by parliament than why cannot this? India > should > > show the world that > > country cannot compromise in integrity and take hard > action > > if required like > > open public death sentence. > > > > Thanks > > Bipin > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From akmalik45 at yahoo.com Thu May 13 12:32:09 2010 From: akmalik45 at yahoo.com (A.K. Malik) Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 00:02:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <929820.55411.qm@web112108.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hi Jhuma, I had sent the results of the NDTV survey for Mr Kaul who is not in favour of the death penalty.I was just to show him that majority of the people were in favour of the death penalty and I am one of those.I happen to be a law graduate and know the criminal law sufficiently well.The surveys are meant to indicate the public opinion and that too for the internet savvy people who prefer to vote for the surveys on line.If you are only to go by the people's opinion I have heard some saying "is ke oopper dahi-chini ka lep laga kar kutte chhor dene chahiye, phansi ki zaroorat nahin hai." By the way you don't need the entire nation to decide on whether there should be Capital punishment or not? Only a majority of our parliamentarians can amend the IPC. When the Governance wish to circumvent anything they can also find ways to do it as is being done in Afzal Guru's case where the Delhi Govt has sat on the clemency file for over 4 years, no one can do anything.So if the Govt wishes, it can give life even to those covicted to be hanged.Another case now a days coming up is that of Koli of NOIDA who has been convicted to be hanged for raping and killing a minor girl.And there are 16 or so such cases against him. You can allow him to live on, I would think he needs to be hanged ASAP though with due process of law. You live with your opinion and I live with mine.The law would remain what it is in the Statutes unless changed. Warm regards, (A.K.MALIK) --- On Thu, 5/13/10, Jhuma Sen wrote: > From: Jhuma Sen > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > To: "A.K. Malik" > Date: Thursday, May 13, 2010, 12:08 AM > Dear Mr Malik, > > Since when did public opinion/sentiment structure the path > criminal > justice should take? This is with reference to your NDTV > Survey. If > your NDTV survey was to be the be all and end all of > judicial and > legal reasoning, then my exasperation alas. Also, it seems > you > advocate that 4335 votes, which probably come from a > fraction of the > urban middle class, form the larger 'opinion' of the > country. What was > our population again? Or are you implying that > 1,139,964,932- 4335 > Indians (do the calculation yourself) are not in a position > to form an > opinion in an issue as important as capital punishment for > Ajmal > Kasab. > > I think there is a need for those who advocate death > penalty for Kasab > to understand that a life imprisonment would have been a > more > exemplary punishment. How can death ever be a penalty, I > wonder? > > Best > > Jhuma Sen > > On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 11:49 PM, A.K. Malik > wrote: > > > > Dear Kaul Sahib, > >                 Thanks for the info. Just for > your information one of the items in an NDTV Survey on UPA > governance is a question: > > "Do you think 26/11 terrorist Kasab should have got > death sentence or life imprisonment? > > It indicates > > > > Death sentence     90.47% > > Life imprisonment     8.05% > > Don't know     1.48% > > Total Votes: 4335 > > You would kindly see that most people are in favour of > death penalty. > > > > Regards, > > > > (A.K.MALIK) > > > > --- On Wed, 5/12/10, Kshmendra Kaul > wrote: > > > > > From: Kshmendra Kaul > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > > To: "A.K. Malik" > > > Cc: "Sarai List" > > > Date: Wednesday, May 12, 2010, 6:21 PM > > > Dear AKM > > > > > > Yes you are right. Somewhat right. > > > > > > It was Home Secretary GK PIllai who said that > Kasab > > > could be hanged within 8 months. But he also > > > indicated that period conditional to "If he > does > > > not file any appeal anywhere". > > > > > > Subsequently Law Minister Veerappa Moily did say > that > > > even if Kasab filed an appeal the case could be > and should > > > be fast-tracked and that Kasab will be hanged > within a > > > year. > > > > > > I was not wrong about the queue system for > > > clemency-appeals from Death Row. I read about > that rule > > > being followed. (just one example here : http://ibnlive.in.com/news/afzal-sushil-santosh-waiting-on-death-row/114683-3.html?from=trhs ) > > > > > > > > > Obviously it is not so and even if there is some > > > unwritten rule (as there seems to have been) then > it > > > can be circumvented at the choice of the > Executive as can be > > > seen in the remarks of Abhishek Singhvi in this > report : http://ibnlive.in.com/news/queue-not-caste-in-stone-in-kasabs-case-cong/114748-37-64.html?from=trhs > > > > > > If the queue systen can be broken for > fast-tracking > > > for one set of reasons (in Kasab's case) then it > can > > > also be broken to delay for another set of > reasons (in > > > Afzal Guru's case). > > > > > > Since, as you know, I am against the > Death-Penalty, > > > therefore I have no interest in exploring either > set of > > > reasons for either or any other case. > > > > > > In an earlier mail I had mentioned 29 people > being on > > > the Death Row with Right of Appeal to President > for Clemecy. > > > I was wrong about that too. It would be more than > 50. In > > > August 2008 itself there were 50 as per response > to a RTI > > > petition. Details here: > > > http://www.rtiindia.org/forum/6488-50-clemency-pleas-pending-before-prez.html > > > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > > > > --- On Wed, 5/12/10, A.K. Malik > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > From: A.K. Malik > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > > To: "Kshmendra Kaul" > > > > > > Cc: "Sarai List" > > > Date: Wednesday, May 12, 2010, 5:16 PM > > > > > > > > > Dear Mr Kaul, > > >              You > > > must have seen Times of India newsitem wherein Mr > Moilly, > > > the Law Minister says that Kasab will be hanged > in 8 months > > > time even if he files appeal.What happened to the > Queue > > > system where mercy petitions are waiting? Is he > going to > > > break the Q for poor Kasab and leave Afzal > living? Something > > > is definitely fishy about Afzal being kept alive > and not the > > > Q system you had relied upon. > > > Regards, > > > > > > (A.K.MALIK) > > > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 5/9/10, A.K. Malik > > > wrote: > > > > > > > From: A.K. Malik > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > > > To: "Kshmendra Kaul" > > > > Cc: "Sarai List" > > > > Date: Sunday, May 9, 2010, 11:54 AM > > > > Dear Mr Kaul, > > > >               I am > > > sorry > > > > to interrupt the thread between you and Mr > Bipin, but > > > after > > > > reading your post couldn't resist writing > back. > > > > 1&2.There is no harm in having an > opinion/point of > > > view > > > > different than what is the law in force.So > long as it > > > is not > > > > changed,the punishment would be based on the > Supreme > > > Court > > > > verdict that death penalty should be given > only in > > > rarest of > > > > rare cases and this is what has been done by > the Judge > > > in > > > > the Kasab case.To give the convicted > > >  person a safeguard > > > > against a wrong conviction of death > penalty,it is > > > mandatory > > > > for the sentence to be ratified in the next > higher > > > court, in > > > > this case Bombay High Court. > > > > If HC doesn't consider it as rearest of the > rare > > > case then > > > > it is a  different matter. > > > > 3.Ask the relatives of the persons killed by > the > > > barbaric > > > > act of the terrorist who want the fellow to > be hanged > > > in > > > > public/shot dead without trial even but the > law of the > > > land > > > > has prevailed and must prevail. > > > > 4. Everyone on the road knows why Afzal Guru > is not > > > being > > > > hanged.Anything rest is all bullshit.You > have written > > > > that"There is a rule followed that each one > will > > > await its > > > > turn for being accepted or being rejected. > THIS IS > > > >  IMPORTANT.",just give a refernce to this > > > rule so that we > > > > also become aware.Even a clerk in Govt > Office knows > > > to > > > > prioritise which file is to be > > >  sent early and which later > > > > but the Delhi Govt can't make up its mind to > send > > > comments > > > > on Afzal's petition in 5 years.Even if such > a rule > > > exists > > > > who stops the Govt from changing it by > executive > > > > directions-because no such rule exists at > all. I say > > > almost > > > > all such "mercy petitions" have some or the > > > other contacts > > > > in political and bureaucracy and are > intentionally > > > being > > > > dragged. So long live Afzal because the > earlier > > > petitions > > > > will never be decided in his life time.May > be if Kasab > > > also > > > > gets the same stature as Afzal, he will also > live on. > > > > Yes, we belong to Gandhiji's land so we > don't > > > do anything > > > > to people who come and kill us and would > rather say > > > come > > > > kill us and we will give you immunity from > being > > > hanged and > > > > even punished and spend crores of rupees for > your > > > safety. > > > > Long live Indian Politics! > > > > With regards, > > > > > > > > > > >  (A.K.MALIK) > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 5/8/10, Kshmendra Kaul > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > From: Kshmendra Kaul > > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV > VERDICT > > > > > To: "Bipin Trivedi" > > > > > Cc: "sarai-list" > > > > > Date: Saturday, May 8, 2010, 7:37 PM > > > > > Dear Bipin > > > > > > > > > > We are > > >  talking in circles now. I will try to make > this > > > > my > > > > > last post on this thread and you are > most welcome > > > to > > > > have > > > > > the final say. > > > > > > > > > > 1. To answer the easier question. Yes, > in my > > > opinion, > > > > the > > > > > countries including India, USA, China, > Pakistan > > > and > > > > > whosoever else, even if they total to > 99% of the > > > > World > > > > > Population are BARBARIC in having the > 'death > > > penalty' > > > > as > > > > > punishment for any crime whatsoever. > > > > > > > > > >     I hope you understand that I > > > am not calling > > > > these > > > > > countries 'barbaric' in their > sum-total, > > > but > > > > 'barbaric' with > > > > > regards to death-penalty. > > > > > > > > > > 2. Yes our (Indian) Constitution > permits the > > > 'death > > > > > penalty' and from my point of view that > needs > > > to be > > > > changed. > > > > > And, because I want > > >  to see that changed therefore my > > > > > argument is not irrelevant but it is a > mirror > > > for > > > > showing > > > > > the barbarism of death-penalty existing > in the > > > > Constitution > > > > > and the blood-lust of those who are > scream for > > > anyone > > > > at > > > > > all to be done to death for any crime > > > whatsoever. > > > > > > > > > > 3. My (and presumably other 'people > like > > > me') opposing > > > > the > > > > > 'death penalty' is not meant for > saving > > > one person but > > > > for > > > > > saving every person who might be > awarded the > > > death > > > > sentence > > > > > whether that person has killed 1 or a > hundred or > > > > thousands. > > > > > > > > > > 4. I tried to explain to you in the > last mail why > > > the > > > > delay > > > > > in execution of Afzal Guru is not > 'minority > > > > appeasement' but > > > > > I seem to have been unsuccessful. > > > > > > > > > >    There > > >  are reportedly 29 'mercy petitions' like > > > > that > > > > > of Afzal Guru lying pending with the > President > > > of > > > > India. > > > > > > > > > >    Afzal Guru was sentenced to > > > death in 2004. > > > > > > > > > >    Let me now give you some names of > > > those who were > > > > > awarded the death sentence before Afzal > Guru and > > > you > > > > might > > > > > realise that there is no 'minority > > > appeasement' in > > > > play. > > > > > > > > > >   Look at these names: Murugan; G. > > > > Perarivalan; Chinna > > > > > Shanthan;  Davinder Singh > > > > > > > > Bhullar ;  Simon; Gnanprakasham; Meesekar > > > > > Madaiah; Bilvendran; Gurdev > > > Singh; Satnam > > > > Singh; Para > > > > > Singh; Sarabjit Singh; Praveen Kumar > > > > > > > > > >    There is a rule followed that > each > > > one will await > > > > > > >  its > > > > > turn for being accepted or being > rejected. THIS > > > IS > > > > > IMPORTANT. You have said that "Legal > > > experts clearly > > > > says > > > > > there is no such law to go with queue > for death > > > > sentence > > > > > matter." Will you please tell me which > > > "Legal Experts" > > > > But, > > > > > isnt it logical that it should be turn > by > > > turn. > > > > > > > > > >    Your main argument > > > for fast-tracking the > > > > execution of > > > > > Afzal Guru is "One must separate > terrorists > > > conviction > > > > with > > > > > other conviction. Due to our this > terror soft > > > > approach, we > > > > > are unable to fight terror to the > extent what > > > actually > > > > we > > > > > should do." > > > > > > > > > >    You are conveying that putting > Afzal > > > Guru to > > > > death > > > > > speedily will deter other terrorists > from > > > attacking > > > > India. > > > > > > > > > > > > >    In this I disagree with you and > let > > > me tell you > > > > why. > > > > > Bipin there is no evidence at all from > any part > > > of the > > > > World > > > > > that executing the 'death sentence' > for > > > any kind of a > > > > crime > > > > > leads to decrease in the incidence of > that > > > particular > > > > crime. > > > > > If you have any such evidence please do > share it. > > > You > > > > can > > > > > take the examples of the very countries > you > > > mentioned > > > > USA, > > > > > China, Pakistan and you can add to that > all > > > other > > > > countries > > > > > where the 'death penalty' is awarded > and > > > executed. > > > > > > > > > > As I said earlier, you can have the > final say. > > > > > > > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 5/8/10, Bipin Trivedi > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Bipin Trivedi > > > > > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] KASAV > VERDICT > > > > > To: "'Kshmendra Kaul'" > > > > > Cc: "sarai-list" > > > > > Date: Saturday, May 8, 2010, 10:54 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Kshemendra, > > > > > > > > > > I have not at all missed the central > point. > > > Politician > > > > go > > > > > out of law for > > > > > their selfish > > >  motto, but not for terror conviction. > > > > What's > > > > > the reason? Can > > > > > you tell? Just because of political > mileage, > > > nothing > > > > else. > > > > > It's real problem > > > > > that people like you did not understand > this. > > > Because > > > > they > > > > > were punished as > > > > > terrorists activity and so the special > case and > > > not > > > > because > > > > > of their > > > > > religion. One must separate terrorists > > > conviction > > > > with > > > > > other conviction. Due > > > > > to our this terror soft approach, we > are unable > > > to > > > > fight > > > > > terror to the > > > > > extent what actually we should do. > > > > > > > > > > I have never mentioned that Afsalguru > should be > > > given > > > > > priority for > > > > > punishment because he belongs to > minority, but > > > due to > > > > > terrorist act > > > > > conviction only. Whoever involved in > this and > > > even in > > > > the > > > > > > > >  future any > > > > > religion should be treated as same for > terror > > > > conviction. > > > > > > > > > > Afsalguru case is clear minor > appeasement for > > > not > > > > executing > > > > > his conviction > > > > > and goes wrong message to terror groups > and > > > encourage > > > > them > > > > > further. Legal > > > > > experts clearly says there is no such > law to go > > > with > > > > queue > > > > > for death > > > > > sentence matter. Earlier such execution > of death > > > > sentence > > > > > carried out, out > > > > > of turn in the couple of occasions. > > > > > > > > > > Constitution of India (SC) has already > convicted > > > > death > > > > > sentence in 2006, > > > > > this cabinet for strange reason > delaying it. So, > > > this > > > > is > > > > > clear minor > > > > > appeasement case Dear Kshemendra. This > is where > > > > congress > > > > > lack will to fight > > > > > terrorism. > > > > > > > > > > > > > You personally oppose death sentence > is > > > altogether > > > > > different issue. Our > > > > > constitution permits death sentence, so > you > > > argument > > > > at > > > > > present is > > > > > irrelevant of blood thirsty animal from > Indian > > > point > > > > of > > > > > view. It is > > > > > unfortunate that people like you oppose > death > > > sentence > > > > for > > > > > the people who is > > > > > blood thirsty for hundreds or thousands > of > > > people. You > > > > want > > > > > to save the life > > > > > of one person who engaged in blood bath > and take > > > lives > > > > of > > > > > 100/1000 of > > > > > people!!! > > > > > > > > > > India is barbaric in your view by > adopting death > > > > sentence > > > > > than those nation > > > > > like US, China, Pakistan and many more > are also > > > > barbaric > > > > > for adopting this > > > > > law. This is about 70% of world > population is > > > > > > >  barbaric > > > > > according to you! > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > Bipin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Kshmendra Kaul [mailto:kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com] > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 4:10 PM > > > > > To: Bipin Trivedi > > > > > Cc: sarai-list > > > > > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] KASAV > VERDICT > > > > > > > > > > Dear Bipin > > > > > > > > > > You have missed the central point. The > > > Constitution > > > > of > > > > > India gives that > > > > > right to Ajmal Kasab and also to Afzal > Guru. > > > > > > > > > > FYI Afzal Guru is not the only one > who's > > > appeal for > > > > waiver > > > > > of 'death > > > > > penalty' is pending with the President. > And > > > most of > > > > the > > > > > others are Hindus. > > > > > > > >  So stop obsessing about 'appeasement of > > > minorities' in > > > > this > > > > > case. > > > > > > > > > > The Constitution of India is not so > petty that it > > > will > > > > be > > > > > changed just > > > > > because you or someone else or even if > millions > > > of > > > > Indians > > > > > want to deny > > > > > Kasab the tiered rights to Courts and > appeal to > > > > President. > > > > > > > > > > Bipin, one should not accuse others of > behaving > > > > > like blood-thirsty animals > > > > > and then become a blood-thirsty animal > > > > himself/herself. > > > > > > > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 5/7/10, Bipin Trivedi > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > From: Bipin Trivedi > > > > > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] KASAV > VERDICT > > > > > To: "'Kshmendra Kaul'" > > > > > Cc: "sarai-list" > > > > > Date: Friday, May 7, 2010, 3:37 PM > > > > > Dear Kshemendra, > > > > > > > > > > Parliament can and has right to make > such > > > decision if > > > > show > > > > > will. But, > > > > > congress cannot show such will, who > prolonged > > > even > > > > > Afsalguru conviction > > > > > keeping pending for so long for their > vote bank > > > > politics. > > > > > Comparison > > >  with > > > > > Shah Bano for the reason of vote bank > politics > > > only > > > > to > > > > > appealing minor. > > > > > Reverting shah Bano verdict is classic > example > > > of > > > > minor > > > > > appeasement and the > > > > > same case with Afsalguru and I am fear > for Kasav > > > also > > > > same > > > > > thing might > > > > > happen. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > Bipin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Kshmendra Kaul [mailto:kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com] > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 1:35 PM > > > > > To: sarai-list; Bipin Trivedi > > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV > VERDICT > > > > > > > > > > Dear Bipin > > > > > > > > > > A. I am against the death penalty for > anyone for > > >  any > > > > crime > > > > > whatsoever. I > > > > > believe the 'death penalty' is > > > awarded in barbaric > > > > > societies, and yes, India > > > > > is still barbaric in many ways. > > > > > > > > > > B. You might disagree on the above. > That does > > > not > > > > change > > > > > the opportunity > > > > > allowed in India for anyone convicted > in a crime > > > in a > > > > Lower > > > > > Court to take > > > > > the matter to a Higher Cour. > > > > > > > > > >      Since it is a question > > > of a 'death penalty', > > > > Kasab > > > > > has the right to > > > > > have his case heard by the Higher > Courts right > > > upto > > > > the > > > > > Supreme Court. After > > > > > that he has the right to appeal to the > President > > > for > > > > waiver > > > > > of the 'death > > > > > penalty'. The Constitution of India > provides > > > that > > > > right. > > > > > You cannot compare > > > > > > >  > Civil Law of the Shah Bano case witha > 'death > > > penalty' > > > > being > > > > > awarded. > > > > > > > > > >      No one can take that > > > right away from Kasab. > > > > > > > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Thu, 5/6/10, Bipin Trivedi > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > From: Bipin Trivedi > > > > > Subject: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > > > > To: "sarai-list" > > > > > Date: Thursday, May 6, 2010, 3:33 > > >  PM > > > > > AS EXPECTED, KASAV RIGHTLY GOT DEATH > SENTENCE. > > > > > > > > > > Though terrorist's Kasav case was > crystal > > > clear, but > > > > still > > > > > we have gone for > > > > > about 17 months fair trial and proved > that how > > > > transparent > > > > > our judicial > > > > > system is unlike Pakistan. But, after > this trial > > > and > > > > > judgment, he should not > > > > > allow to appeal in the higher court and > should > > > be > > > > hanged in > > > > > public > > > > > immediately without further judicial > procedure. > > > if > > > > Indira > > > > > Gandhi (ex PM) > > > > > deny to obey court verdict and neglect > law and > > > Shah > > > > Banu > > > > > case was revert out > > > > > of law by parliament than why cannot > this? India > > > > should > > > > > show the world that > > > > > country cannot compromise in integrity > and take > > > hard > > > > action > > > > > if required like > > > > > open public > > >  death sentence. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > Bipin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on > media and > > > the > > > > > city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > > > with subscribe > > > > > in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on > media and > > > the > > > > > city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > > > with subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > From akmalik45 at yahoo.com Thu May 13 12:57:03 2010 From: akmalik45 at yahoo.com (A.K. Malik) Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 00:27:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] UID Project Message-ID: <662301.4897.qm@web112119.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> HI Taha, News item may be of use to you. Rs 50 crores is being sanctioned for the UID project to educate people about the UID Project.This amount will be spent on tv, news media etc to educate people about the project. Regards, (A.K.MALIK) From ujwalasam at gmail.com Thu May 13 13:02:23 2010 From: ujwalasam at gmail.com (Ujwala Samarth) Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 13:02:23 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Open Space Fellowships Message-ID: *OS Fellowships: Nurturing civil society leadership* *and action among young people* * * Open Space, Pune, invites applications for the Open Space Fellowships 2010. Open Space, the civil society and youth outreach programme of the Centre for Communication and Development Studies (CCDS), Pune, engages with citizens – especially young citizens -- on contemporary social, economic and cultural issues through film screenings, performances, literary readings, music concerts, art, storytelling, capacity-building workshops, discussion and study forums, public lectures, youth festivals and campaigns. Open Space aims to be a vibrant place for youth to volunteer, learn, share ideas, and express themselves. Equally, Open Space supports CSOs and citizens to take their work/ideas/processes to a wide audience of concerned citizens, and also to build action networks. The Open Space Fellowships are an effort to extend the Open Space idea and process to other cities in India. Two rounds of fellowships – in Chennai, Kolkata, Ranchi, Lucknow, Ahmedabad and Bangalore -- have already been completed in the last three years. *In 2010 we will be awarding 3 full-time fellowships for a period of 12 months each. * **** Applications are invited from young activists/leaders/social entrepreneurs in cities besides Pune. Applicants from growing metros such as Nagpur, Bhopal, Baroda, Jaipur, Indore, etc are especially encouraged to apply. We are looking for individuals who are well-informed on social justice and development issues, with a background in the social sciences/human rights/development/media or allied fields. The Fellows should be dynamic, energetic, resourceful and excellent at communications, moderating discussions, training and capacity-building. A passion for the arts and ideas will be an added advantage. The Fellows will use and adapt in their own cities some of the Open Space “software” (such as activity-based workshops on gender, sexuality, human rights, globalisation, etc). They will also develop their own strategies for outreach and activities/campaigns specific to their own cities. The Fellows should be well-networked with NGOs, CSOs, educational institutions and community groups in their own city. Over the 12-month period, several regular networks, partnerships, events and forums should have been initiated and publicized. Open Space Fellows will organise programmes and trainings at multiple venues, in collaboration with educational institutions, communities, campaigns, partner CSOs etc. The Fellows will be expected to forge formal partnerships with at least one educational institution in their city where they will work intensively with a particular batch of students, set up Open Space clubs etc. Open Space fellowships will be awarded to individuals preferably below the age of 40. The fellowship carries a monthly honorarium of Rs 20,000, inclusive of communication and conveyance costs incurred by the Fellows. Modest monthly expenditures for programmes/resourcepersons’ fees are reimbursed separately. Applicants are invited to send in their CVs and a detailed statement of interest in these Fellowships, expanding on 1) their suitability for, and interest in, these Fellowships; 2) the social justice/development issues most integral to their cities which they would like to work on in the course of this fellowship; 3) strategies they would employ for outreach, including likely partners and networks in their cities. Email your applications, before June 15, 2010, to: *mediafellowships at infochangeindia.org* and cc them to ujwalasam at gmail.com. For more information on CCDS and Open Space log on to www.openspaceindia.org, www.ccds.in and www.infochangeindia.org. . -- Ujwala Samarth (Programme Coordinator, Open Space) www.openspaceindia.org www.infochangeindia.org http://www.facebook.com/pages/Open-Space/116557125037041 B-301, Kanchanjunga Building, Kanchan Lane, Off Law College Rd,, Pune 411004 (020-25457371) From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Thu May 13 14:20:27 2010 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 01:50:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] "The Rise Of Hindutva Terrorism" Message-ID: <170858.57640.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> May 11, 2010   "The Rise Of Hindutva Terrorism"   Praveen Swami   (The recent arrests in Rajasthan mark progress in resolving some of the most opaque and contentious terrorist attacks India has seen — and also focus attention on a little-understood threat)   Eight hundred years ago, the Sufi saint Khwaja Moinuddin Chisti described what he called the highest form of worship: "to redress the misery of those in distress, to fulfil the needs of the helpless and to feed the hungry."    Back in October, 2007, bombs ripped through the courtyard of what is without dispute South Asia’s most popular Muslim religious centre — the shrine that commemorates Chishti’s life at Ajmer Sharif, in Rajasthan. For months, Police believed the attacks had been carried out by Islamist groups, who oppose the shrine’s syncretic message. On April 30, 2010, however, Rajasthan Police investigators arrested the man they say purchased the mobile phone subscriber-identification modules (SIM) used to trigger the attack. Devendra Gupta, a long standing worker of the Hindu-nationalist Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS), was held along with his political associates Vishnu Prasad and Chandrashekhar Patidar. All three men are now also thought to have participated in the bombing of the Mecca Masjid in Hyderabad, Andhra Pradesh. Rasasthan Home Minister Shanti Kumar Dhariwal said the men were backed by an "organisation which tries to incite violence between Hindus and Muslims", adding that authorities were "investigating the links of the organisation with the RSS."   The arrests in Rajasthan mark progress in resolving some of the most opaque and contentious terrorist attacks India has seen in recent years — but have also focussed attention on the little-understood threat of Hindu-nationalist or Hindutva terrorism.   Evidence that Hindutva groups were seeking to acquire terrorist capabilities began to emerge late in 2002. In December that year, an improvised explosive device was found at Bhopal’s railway station, evidently intended to target Muslims arriving in the city to attend a Tablighi Jamaat gathering. Exactly a year later, a second bomb was found in the Lamba Khera area, on the outskirts of Bhopal, on the last day of a Talblighi Jamaat meeting. Both devices were made with commercial nitroglycerine-based explosive, packed inside a four-inch long section of grooved pipe — the kind used, for example, in tube-wells. The explosive was linked to a detonator controlled by both a quartz alarm clock and a mobile phone. Investigators would, in coming years, become familiar with the device: it would be used, with only minor modifications, at Mecca Masjid and at the Ajmer Sharif Shrine. Police in Madhya Pradesh soon developed information linking the attempted Bhopal bombings to local Hindutva activists Ramnarayan Kalsangram and Sunil Joshi. Both suspects were, Police sources said, questioned. No hard evidence linking them to the attempted bombings, however, emerged. Nevertheless, former Madhya Pradesh Chief Minister Digvijay Singh announced that he had evidence of the involvement of members of the Bajrang Dal, an affiliate of the RSS, in acts of terrorism. For reasons that are unclear, though, this evidence was not used to prosecute members of the organisation or any other suspects. Nor were Kalsangram and Joshi placed under sustained surveillance, a failure — regrettably common in Indian policing — that was to cost many lives in coming years.      >From 2006, more evidence began to become available that Hindutva terrorist groups were seeking to enhance their lethality. That summer, Bajrang Dal activists Naresh Kondwar and Himanshu Panse were killed in a bomb-making accident in Nanded, Maharashtra. Police later discovered that the two men had been responsible for bombing a mosque in the Parbhani District in April 2006. Bajrang Dal activists linked to the Nanded cell, the Police also found, had bombed mosques at Purna and Jalna in April, 2003, injuring 18 people.  Few in India’s intelligence services saw these activities as a serious threat. In New Delhi, where two low-grade bombs went off at the historic Jama Masjid at the same time, Police made almost no serious effort to investigate the case. However, the Maharashtra Police — who had better reason than most to rue the fact, after all, that the Indian jihadist movement flowered because inadequate attention had been paid to a handful of obscure Islamists staging parades in a Mumbai slum — made clear its disquiet. In a 2006 interview to the Mumbai-based magazine Communalism Combat, former Maharashtra anti-terrorism Police chief K.P. Raghuvanshi noted that the Nanded cell’s operations could have "frightening repercussions", adding further that "bombs were not being manufactured for a puja [prayer ceremony]". Raghuvanshi’s concern was likely driven by information that Hindutva groups could gain access to more lethal explosives. In September 2006, the Police seized a 195-kilogram cocktail of military grade explosives from an Ahmednagar scrap dealer, Shankar Shelke. Shelke, investigators found, retrieved the material — more than enough to execute all terror strikes across India since 1993 — from a decommissioned Indian Army ordinance store which had sold it as scrap. From Shelke’s telephone records, the investigators established the existence of a huge underground market for high-grade explosives — in the main industrial users who found legally available ammonium nitrate-based slurry explosives a nuisance to store and use. In May, 2007, a high-intensity bomb went off under a granite slab in an open-air area of the Mecca Masjid in Hyderabad, killing nine people and injuring at least 50; another five people were shot dead when Police fired on violent mobs who protested against the attack. Police then said the attack was likely carried out by the Harkat ul-Jihad-e-Islami (HuJI); State Home Minister K. Jana Reddy attributed it to "foreign elements". Police in Hyderabad have, rightly, been criticised for jumping to conclusions. It is worth noting, though, that — some media accounts notwithstanding — no arrests were made in the case, which was handed over to the Central Bureau of Investigations. More than a dozen Hyderabad Muslims were, indeed, held after the 2008 bombings at Gokul Chaat and Lumbini Park, now believed to have been carried out by a jihadist group, the Indian Mujahideen (IM). None of the men, however, were charged with involvement in either the 2007 or 2008 attacks; they were, instead, accused, and eventually acquitted, on unrelated charges of conspiring to execute acts of terror, based on their alleged possession of fake identification and pseudonymously-acquired mobile phones. Police in Hyderabad have, in the course of the Hindutva terrorism allegation, frequently been accused of communal bias. While the force no doubt suffers from prejudices endemic to Indian society as a whole, there is no empirical basis to suggest communalism coloured its investigation of the Mecca Masjid bombing. Police in Rajasthan proved just as clueless when bombs went off just outside the famous shrine at Ajmer, killing two people. However, some critical pieces of evidence did emerge. The SIM cards for mobile phones used to activate the bombs at both Mecca Masjid and Ajmer, it turned out were among a set of seven purchased by the perpetrators from West Bengal and Jharkhand in April 2007. The bomb maker had linked the phone’s speaker to a detonator, and packed explosives inside grooved metal pipe — just as they had in the earlier attempts in Bhopal. In September, 2008, when bombs went off at Malegaon in Maharashtra and Modasa in Gujarat, killing eight and injuring over eighty, Police in Maharashtra were well-poised to develop the leads they had been gathering since 2006. Within weeks, investigators had arrested several key figures in a Pune-based Hindutva cell they believed had carried out the Malegaon attacks — among them, Sadhvi Pragya Singh Thakur, a Madhya Pradesh-based Hindu nun with deep links to the Hindutva movement, Jammu-based cleric Sudhakar Dwivedi, and a serving Indian Army Lieutenant Colonel, Shrikant Prasad Purohit, linked under the umbrella of Abhinav Bharat. Founded in the summer of 2006 (on June 12), Abhinav Bharat had been set up as an educational trust with Himani Savarkar — daughter of Gopal Godse, brother of Mahatma Gandhi’s assassin — as its President. But, documents filed by Maharashtra prosecutors in the Pune court where Malegaon suspects are being tried, showed that members of the group were soon discussing terrorist activity. In June 2007, Purohit allegedly suggested that the time had come to target Muslims through terrorist attacks — a plea others in Abhinav Bharat rejected. But, evidence gathered by the Police suggests, many within the group were determined to press ahead. At a meeting in April 2008, key suspects including Thakur Dwivedi, also known as Amritananda Dev Tirtha, met Purohit to hammer out the Malegaon plot. Explosives were later procured by Purohit, and handed over to Ram Narayan Kalsangram, in early August 2008. Abhinav Bharat’s long-term aims, though, went far beyond targeting Muslims: its members wanted to overthrow the Indian state and replace it with a totalitarian, theocratic order. A ‘draft constitution’ spoke of a single-party system, presided over by a leader who "shall be followed at all levels without questioning the authority." It called for the creation of an "academy of indoctrinization [sic]." The concluding comment was stark: "People whose ideas are detrimental to Hindu Rashtra should be killed." Purohit’s plans to bring about a Hindutva state were often fantastical — bordering, even, on the pathological. He claimed, prosecutors say, to have secured an appointment with Nepal’s former monarch, Gyanendra Bir Bikram Shah Dev in 2006 and 2007, to press for his support for the planned Hindutva revolution. Nepal, he went on, was willing to train Abhinav Bharat’s cadre, and supply it with assault rifles. Israel’s Government, he said, had agreed to grant members of the group military support and, if needed, political asylum. No evidence has ever emerged that Purohit had, in fact, succeeded in developing transnational patronage or linkages. The son of a bank officer with no particular political leanings, Purohit seems to have first encountered Hindutva politics in his late teens when he attended a special coaching class for Short Service Commission officer-aspirants at the Bhonsala Military School in Nashik. Founded in 1937 by B.S. Moonje, the controversial school drew on fascist pedagogical practices the Hindutva ideologue encountered on a visit to Europe. Moonje, who had earlier served with the British Indian Army as a doctor during the visit, had met with Italian dictator Benito Mussolini and studied fascist institutions. Purohit’s military career itself was undistinguished. In 2002, he participated in 15 Maratha Light Infantry’s counter-terrorism operations in Jammu and Kashmir, but won no special honours. Later, he was given an administrative job linked to the raising of 41 Rashtriya Rifles, a dedicated counter-terrorism formation that operates out of Kupwara, in northern Kashmir. His tenure in Jammu and Kashmir ended in January, 2005, while serving in the Awantipora-based 31-Counter Intelligence Unit of the Military Intelligence Directorate, an assignment not considered among the most prestigious. Investigators suspect Purohit’s decision to set up Abhinav Bharat germinated soon after he moved to Maharashtra in 2005. Purohit was assigned charge of an Army Liaison Unit, a Military Intelligence cell responsible for developing and maintaining links between the Army and local communities. The job provided a perfect cover for developing contacts with his old school, and the circle of Pune-region Hindutva activists who were connected to it. School commandant Colonel S.S. Raikar, investigators say, played a key role in putting Purohit in touch with the activists who went on to form Abhinav Bharat. Raikar, who retired from the Indian Army as head of a Military Intelligence detachment in Manipur, is not charged with criminal wrong-doing. In the summer of 2006, though, Abhinav Bharat held the first of what was to be a series of meetings in rooms provided by the Bhonsala Military School. From the outset, it made no secret of its objectives. Abhinav Bharat drew its name from a terrorist group set up by Hindutva activists in 1904 to fight colonial Britain. Himani Savarkar, grandniece of the Hindutva movement’s founding patriarch Vinayak Damodar Savarkar and niece of Mahatma Gandhi’s assassin Nathuram Godse, was appointed the organisation’s President. Purohit is alleged to have told Abhinav Bharat supporters that his military background had equipped him, unlike the political leadership of existing Hindutva organisations, to prepare for what he saw as an inevitable Hindu-Muslim civilisational war. He would often invent stories of heroic covert exploits against jihadi terrorists to impress his recruits. Full-time cadres of the organisation were known by the honorific Chanakya, a reference to the scholar-advisor who is reputed to have helped build the foundations for the rule of the emperor Chandragupta Maurya. Despite the formidable mass of evidence it gathered, the Maharashtra investigation ran into a wall — a wall from which the recent arrests in Rajasthan may have removed a few bricks. Thakur’s long-standing associate, Dewas-based RSS organiser and Hindutva activist Sunil Joshi, was murdered on December 31, 2008. His political associates claimed he was killed by Islamists; Police, however, believe that his murder was driven both by disputes over funds within the Abhinav Bharat network, and a romantic issue. Police have also been unable to locate Gujarat-based Jatin Chatterjee, an influential Hindu cleric who uses the clerical alias Swami Asimananad. Chatterjee is a key figure in the controversial Vanvasi Kalyan Ashram, which operates a Hindu-proselytisation programme targeting adivasis (tribals) in southern Gujarat. Police sources say he is likely hiding out in Gujarat’s Dangs area, but claim the State Government has failed to cooperate with efforts to locate the suspect. Ram Narayan Kalsangram, the third key fugitive, is also thought to be hiding out in Gujarat. Lawyers for Thakur say she had sold a motorcycle used in the Malegaon bombings to Joshi who, without her knowledge, passed it on to Kalsangram. What lessons ought India to be learning from the story of the Hindutva terror network? Key among them is the urgent need to address the country’s dysfunctional communal politics. Thakur and her Hindutva terror cell have deep — and, for some, discomfiting — roots in history. Influenced by the dramatic impact of terrorism in imperial Russia, the Hindu nationalist leader, Bal Gangadhar Tilak, became increasingly drawn to violence as a tool to achieve Indian independence. A year after the searing 1905 revolution, which compelled Czar Alexander II to grant basic civil rights, Tilak exhorted his followers: "The days of prayer have gone… Look to the examples of Ireland, Japan and Russia and follow their methods." Tilak’s message proved attractive to many young, upper caste Hindu neoconservatives — often the products of western-style education who had found in their re-imagining of Indian tradition a language with which to oppose British imperialism. Figures like Vinayak Damodar Savarkar, who went on to lead the Hindu Mahasabha, cast the struggle against Britain as a fight to defend the Hindu faith. In one manifesto, the original Abhinav Bharat’s followers promised to "shed upon the earth the life-blood of the enemies who destroy religion." Later, the radical right journal Yugantar argued that the murder of foreigners in India was "not a sin but a yagna [ritual sacrifice]"—sentiments that would be entirely familiar to Osama bin-Laden’s jihadi armies today. Despite the arrests in Rajasthan, investigators probing Hindutva terror groups still have much work to do. First, a number of mysteries remain to be resolved—ranging from the New Delhi bombings, to the unresolved firebombing of the New Delhi-Lahore Samjhauta Express. Maharashtra prosecutors say a witness heard Purohit linking Joshi to the train’s firebombing. Purohit, the witness claimed, made the claim after a December 29, 2007, phone call, when he was informed of Joshi’s death. "After the phone call," a senior Maharashtra Police officer disclosed, "our witness says Lieutenant-Colonel Purohit credited Joshi with having executed the Samjhauta Express attack, and hailed him as a martyr." In 2009, however, the United States Treasury Department attributed the attack to top Lashkar-e-Toiba (LeT) operative Arif Kasmani who, it said, was funded by Karachi-based ganglord Dawood Ibrahim Kaksar. The arrests over the past weeks notwithstanding, the threat remains real — and must be snuffed out. Last year, in June, Hindu Janajagruti Samiti operatives were held for the bombing of the Gadkari Rangayatan theatre in Thane (Maharashtra), to protest the staging of a satire on the Mahabharata, Amhi Pachpute. One of those arrested by the Police, Mangesh Nikam, was facing trial on charges of bombing the home of a Ratnagiri family that had converted to Christianity, and was out on bail. Members of the Goa-based Sanatan Sanstha, affiliated to Hindu Janajagruti, were held for staging a bombing in Panani. Earlier, Bajrang Dal-linked Rajiv Mishra and Bhupinder Singh were killed in a bomb-making accident in Kanpur, Uttar Pradesh (UP). UP Police sources said there was little to show that the group had links with the terror cells in Maharashtra, but experience shows that even small cells, left untouched, will acquire ever-greater levels of lethality.      (Praveen Swami is Associate Editor, The Hindu, New Delhi. Courtesy: the South Asia Intelligence Review of the South Asia Terrorism Portal)     http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?265400   From delhi.yunus at gmail.com Thu May 13 14:25:05 2010 From: delhi.yunus at gmail.com (Syed Yunus) Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 14:25:05 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] UID Project: 50 crores for marketing not education Message-ID: Interesting news, let me draw your attention towards a similar attempt to educate 'people' i.e *Financial Literacy.* ** Financial inclusion is gaining attention in India these days. The self help movement that started in 80's got converted into microfinance because it is easy to measures money as indicators of development. Traditional money lenders have been replaced by Non banking finance companies and now Foreign investors want to exploit the bottom of the pyramid. financial literacy have been advocated by the Microfinance giants to solve the problem of, multiple lending, un-ethical recovery and exploitative credit culture. Take a quick view of the issues in the Microfinance sector india. Click here to see my latest film 'Responsible Finance ' , Duration 15 min. Thanks, Yunus On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 12:57 PM, A.K. Malik wrote: > HI Taha, > News item may be of use to you. Rs 50 crores is being sanctioned > for the UID project to educate people about the UID Project.This amount will > be spent on tv, news media etc to educate people about the project. > Regards, > > (A.K.MALIK) > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- Change is the only constant in life ! From aliens at dataone.in Thu May 13 15:10:21 2010 From: aliens at dataone.in (Bipin Trivedi) Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 15:10:21 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT In-Reply-To: <000001caf260$af9a2ee0$0ece8ca0$@butterfliesindia.org> References: <0E48449D8C274507A533E67270333938@butterfliesdelhi.local> <000001caf260$af9a2ee0$0ece8ca0$@butterfliesindia.org> Message-ID: <000701caf280$54db3bf0$fe91b3d0$@in> Thanks Shashi for your consent and input. -----Original Message----- From: Shashidhar [mailto:shashidhar at butterfliesindia.org] Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2010 11:24 AM To: 'Bipin Trivedi'; 'sarai-list' Subject: RE: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT I remember a comment from soli sorabjee on the television that there was no queue system and he gave an example of Indira Gandhi assassination where the culprit was hanged within six or seven months of sentencing. He also said that the death sentence was not carried out for a long time after the hanging of Indira Gandhi assassin. Any way who in the civilised world wants people - civilian and terrorist kind to be killed in their home land.. turn him over to the land where he came from may be find peace there and be worshipped as a hero.. Shashi -----Original Message----- From: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net [mailto:reader-list-bounces at sarai.net] On Behalf Of Bipin Trivedi Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2010 11:16 AM To: sarai-list Subject: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT Dear Kshemendra, You are against the death penalty that is understandable as your personnel view, but why you defend government on the queue system when as such no such law exists. By mentioning both website you tried to convince about the rule is there for queue system. Both the site you mentioned does not mentioned any rule. Our main argument is this only that there is no such rule and one must take decision with their own instinct which is to be execute first. If you ask political/law illiterate person that the man convicted for parliament attack should be handled more seriously with priority. Educated and politically well aware people like you does not understand this is strange thing. But, unnecessarily defend the government for their politically motivated act for the political gain. Thanks Bipin -----Original Message----- From: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net [mailto:reader-list-bounces at sarai.net] On Behalf Of Kshmendra Kaul Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2010 6:21 PM To: A.K. Malik Cc: Sarai List Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT Dear AKM Yes you are right. Somewhat right. It was Home Secretary GK PIllai who said that Kasab could be hanged within 8 months. But he also indicated that period conditional to "If he does not file any appeal anywhere". Subsequently Law Minister Veerappa Moily did say that even if Kasab filed an appeal the case could be and should be fast-tracked and that Kasab will be hanged within a year. I was not wrong about the queue system for clemency-appeals from Death Row. I read about that rule being followed. (just one example here : http://ibnlive.in.com/news/afzal-sushil-santosh-waiting-on-death-row/114683-3.html?from=trhs ) Obviously it is not so and even if there is some unwritten rule (as there seems to have been) then it can be circumvented at the choice of the Executive as can be seen in the remarks of Abhishek Singhvi in this report : http://ibnlive.in.com/news/queue-not-caste-in-stone-in-kasabs-case-cong/114748-37-64.html?from=trhs If the queue systen can be broken for fast-tracking for one set of reasons (in Kasab's case) then it can also be broken to delay for another set of reasons (in Afzal Guru's case). Since, as you know, I am against the Death-Penalty, therefore I have no interest in exploring either set of reasons for either or any other case. In an earlier mail I had mentioned 29 people being on the Death Row with Right of Appeal to President for Clemecy. I was wrong about that too. It would be more than 50. In August 2008 itself there were 50 as per response to a RTI petition. Details here: http://www.rtiindia.org/forum/6488-50-clemency-pleas-pending-before-prez.html Kshmendra --- On Wed, 5/12/10, A.K. Malik wrote: From: A.K. Malik Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT To: "Kshmendra Kaul" Cc: "Sarai List" Date: Wednesday, May 12, 2010, 5:16 PM Dear Mr Kaul, You must have seen Times of India newsitem wherein Mr Moilly, the Law Minister says that Kasab will be hanged in 8 months time even if he files appeal.What happened to the Queue system where mercy petitions are waiting? Is he going to break the Q for poor Kasab and leave Afzal living? Something is definitely fishy about Afzal being kept alive and not the Q system you had relied upon. Regards, (A.K.MALIK) --- On Sun, 5/9/10, A.K. Malik wrote: > From: A.K. Malik > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > To: "Kshmendra Kaul" > Cc: "Sarai List" > Date: Sunday, May 9, 2010, 11:54 AM > Dear Mr Kaul, > I am sorry > to interrupt the thread between you and Mr Bipin, but after reading > your post couldn't resist writing back. > 1&2.There is no harm in having an opinion/point of view different than > what is the law in force.So long as it is not changed,the punishment > would be based on the Supreme Court verdict that death penalty should > be given only in rarest of rare cases and this is what has been done > by the Judge in the Kasab case.To give the convicted person a > safeguard against a wrong conviction of death penalty,it is mandatory > for the sentence to be ratified in the next higher court, in this case > Bombay High Court. > If HC doesn't consider it as rearest of the rare case then it is a > different matter. > 3.Ask the relatives of the persons killed by the barbaric act of the > terrorist who want the fellow to be hanged in public/shot dead without > trial even but the law of the land has prevailed and must prevail. > 4. Everyone on the road knows why Afzal Guru is not being > hanged.Anything rest is all bullshit.You have written that"There is a > rule followed that each one will await its turn for being accepted or > being rejected. THIS IS IMPORTANT.",just give a refernce to this rule > so that we also become aware.Even a clerk in Govt Office knows to > prioritise which file is to be sent early and which later but the > Delhi Govt can't make up its mind to send comments on Afzal's petition > in 5 years.Even if such a rule exists who stops the Govt from changing > it by executive directions-because no such rule exists at all. I say > almost all such "mercy petitions" have some or the other contacts in > political and bureaucracy and are intentionally being dragged. So long > live Afzal because the earlier petitions will never be decided in his > life time.May be if Kasab also gets the same stature as Afzal, he will > also live on. > Yes, we belong to Gandhiji's land so we don't do anything to people > who come and kill us and would rather say come kill us and we will > give you immunity from being hanged and even punished and spend crores > of rupees for your safety. > Long live Indian Politics! > With regards, > > (A.K.MALIK) > > > --- On Sat, 5/8/10, Kshmendra Kaul > wrote: > > > From: Kshmendra Kaul > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > To: "Bipin Trivedi" > > Cc: "sarai-list" > > Date: Saturday, May 8, 2010, 7:37 PM Dear Bipin > > > > We are talking in circles now. I will try to make this > my > > last post on this thread and you are most welcome to > have > > the final say. > > > > 1. To answer the easier question. Yes, in my opinion, > the > > countries including India, USA, China, Pakistan and whosoever else, > > even if they total to 99% of the > World > > Population are BARBARIC in having the 'death penalty' > as > > punishment for any crime whatsoever. > > > > I hope you understand that I am not calling > these > > countries 'barbaric' in their sum-total, but > 'barbaric' with > > regards to death-penalty. > > > > 2. Yes our (Indian) Constitution permits the 'death penalty' and > > from my point of view that needs to be > changed. > > And, because I want to see that changed therefore my argument is not > > irrelevant but it is a mirror for > showing > > the barbarism of death-penalty existing in the > Constitution > > and the blood-lust of those who are scream for anyone > at > > all to be done to death for any crime whatsoever. > > > > 3. My (and presumably other 'people like me') opposing > the > > 'death penalty' is not meant for saving one person but > for > > saving every person who might be awarded the death > sentence > > whether that person has killed 1 or a hundred or > thousands. > > > > 4. I tried to explain to you in the last mail why the > delay > > in execution of Afzal Guru is not 'minority > appeasement' but > > I seem to have been unsuccessful. > > > > There are reportedly 29 'mercy petitions' like > that > > of Afzal Guru lying pending with the President of > India. > > > > Afzal Guru was sentenced to death in 2004. > > > > Let me now give you some names of those who were awarded the > > death sentence before Afzal Guru and you > might > > realise that there is no 'minority appeasement' in > play. > > > > Look at these names: Murugan; G. > Perarivalan; Chinna > > Shanthan; Davinder Singh > > Bhullar ; Simon; Gnanprakasham; Meesekar Madaiah; Bilvendran; > > Gurdev Singh; Satnam > Singh; Para > > Singh; Sarabjit Singh; Praveen Kumar > > > > There is a rule followed that each one will await > its > > turn for being accepted or being rejected. THIS IS IMPORTANT. You > > have said that "Legal experts clearly > says > > there is no such law to go with queue for death > sentence > > matter." Will you please tell me which "Legal Experts" > But, > > isnt it logical that it should be turn by turn. > > > > Your main argument for fast-tracking the > execution of > > Afzal Guru is "One must separate terrorists conviction > with > > other conviction. Due to our this terror soft > approach, we > > are unable to fight terror to the extent what actually > we > > should do." > > > > You are conveying that putting Afzal Guru to > death > > speedily will deter other terrorists from attacking > India. > > > > In this I disagree with you and let me tell you > why. > > Bipin there is no evidence at all from any part of the > World > > that executing the 'death sentence' for any kind of a > crime > > leads to decrease in the incidence of that particular > crime. > > If you have any such evidence please do share it. You > can > > take the examples of the very countries you mentioned > USA, > > China, Pakistan and you can add to that all other > countries > > where the 'death penalty' is awarded and executed. > > > > As I said earlier, you can have the final say. > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > --- On Sat, 5/8/10, Bipin Trivedi > > wrote: > > > > > > From: Bipin Trivedi > > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > To: "'Kshmendra Kaul'" > > Cc: "sarai-list" > > Date: Saturday, May 8, 2010, 10:54 AM > > > > > > Dear Kshemendra, > > > > I have not at all missed the central point. Politician > go > > out of law for > > their selfish motto, but not for terror conviction. > What's > > the reason? Can > > you tell? Just because of political mileage, nothing > else. > > It's real problem > > that people like you did not understand this. Because > they > > were punished as > > terrorists activity and so the special case and not > because > > of their > > religion. One must separate terrorists conviction > with > > other conviction. Due > > to our this terror soft approach, we are unable to > fight > > terror to the > > extent what actually we should do. > > > > I have never mentioned that Afsalguru should be given priority for > > punishment because he belongs to minority, but due to terrorist act > > conviction only. Whoever involved in this and even in > the > > future any > > religion should be treated as same for terror > conviction. > > > > Afsalguru case is clear minor appeasement for not > executing > > his conviction > > and goes wrong message to terror groups and encourage > them > > further. Legal > > experts clearly says there is no such law to go with > queue > > for death > > sentence matter. Earlier such execution of death > sentence > > carried out, out > > of turn in the couple of occasions. > > > > Constitution of India (SC) has already convicted > death > > sentence in 2006, > > this cabinet for strange reason delaying it. So, this > is > > clear minor > > appeasement case Dear Kshemendra. This is where > congress > > lack will to fight > > terrorism. > > > > You personally oppose death sentence is altogether different issue. > > Our constitution permits death sentence, so you argument > at > > present is > > irrelevant of blood thirsty animal from Indian point > of > > view. It is > > unfortunate that people like you oppose death sentence > for > > the people who is > > blood thirsty for hundreds or thousands of people. You > want > > to save the life > > of one person who engaged in blood bath and take lives > of > > 100/1000 of > > people!!! > > > > India is barbaric in your view by adopting death > sentence > > than those nation > > like US, China, Pakistan and many more are also > barbaric > > for adopting this > > law. This is about 70% of world population is > barbaric > > according to you! > > > > Thanks > > Bipin > > > > > > > > From: Kshmendra Kaul [mailto:kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com] > > > > Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 4:10 PM > > To: Bipin Trivedi > > Cc: sarai-list > > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > > > Dear Bipin > > > > You have missed the central point. The Constitution > of > > India gives that > > right to Ajmal Kasab and also to Afzal Guru. > > > > FYI Afzal Guru is not the only one who's appeal for > waiver > > of 'death > > penalty' is pending with the President. And most of > the > > others are Hindus. > > So stop obsessing about 'appeasement of minorities' in > this > > case. > > > > The Constitution of India is not so petty that it will > be > > changed just > > because you or someone else or even if millions of > Indians > > want to deny > > Kasab the tiered rights to Courts and appeal to > President. > > > > Bipin, one should not accuse others of behaving like blood-thirsty > > animals and then become a blood-thirsty animal > himself/herself. > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > --- On Fri, 5/7/10, Bipin Trivedi > > wrote: > > > > From: Bipin Trivedi > > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > To: "'Kshmendra Kaul'" > > Cc: "sarai-list" > > Date: Friday, May 7, 2010, 3:37 PM > > Dear Kshemendra, > > > > Parliament can and has right to make such decision if > show > > will. But, > > congress cannot show such will, who prolonged even Afsalguru > > conviction keeping pending for so long for their vote bank > politics. > > Comparison with > > Shah Bano for the reason of vote bank politics only > to > > appealing minor. > > Reverting shah Bano verdict is classic example of > minor > > appeasement and the > > same case with Afsalguru and I am fear for Kasav also > same > > thing might > > happen. > > > > Thanks > > Bipin > > > > > > > > > > From: Kshmendra Kaul [mailto:kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com] > > > > Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 1:35 PM > > To: sarai-list; Bipin Trivedi > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > > > Dear Bipin > > > > A. I am against the death penalty for anyone for any > crime > > whatsoever. I > > believe the 'death penalty' is awarded in barbaric societies, and > > yes, India is still barbaric in many ways. > > > > B. You might disagree on the above. That does not > change > > the opportunity > > allowed in India for anyone convicted in a crime in a > Lower > > Court to take > > the matter to a Higher Cour. > > > > Since it is a question of a 'death penalty', > Kasab > > has the right to > > have his case heard by the Higher Courts right upto > the > > Supreme Court. After > > that he has the right to appeal to the President for > waiver > > of the 'death > > penalty'. The Constitution of India provides that > right. > > You cannot compare > > Civil Law of the Shah Bano case witha 'death penalty' > being > > awarded. > > > > No one can take that right away from Kasab. > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > --- On Thu, 5/6/10, Bipin Trivedi > > wrote: > > > > From: Bipin Trivedi > > Subject: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > To: "sarai-list" > > Date: Thursday, May 6, 2010, 3:33 PM AS EXPECTED, KASAV RIGHTLY GOT > > DEATH SENTENCE. > > > > Though terrorist's Kasav case was crystal clear, but > still > > we have gone for > > about 17 months fair trial and proved that how > transparent > > our judicial > > system is unlike Pakistan. But, after this trial and judgment, he > > should not allow to appeal in the higher court and should be > hanged in > > public > > immediately without further judicial procedure. if > Indira > > Gandhi (ex PM) > > deny to obey court verdict and neglect law and Shah > Banu > > case was revert out > > of law by parliament than why cannot this? India > should > > show the world that > > country cannot compromise in integrity and take hard > action > > if required like > > open public death sentence. > > > > Thanks > > Bipin > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Thu May 13 16:03:34 2010 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 03:33:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] UID Project: 50 crores for marketing not education In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <210959.23104.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Yunus   Thank you for sharing your well knit-together film. Informative. Educative. Sensible perspectives. Clear contrast between truly "Responsible Finance" and such "Finance Companies" who have simply taken over the business of the explotative Moneylender.   "Are we banking for the poor for their development? Or, we are banking with the poor for our development"   Thanks   Kshmendra   --- On Thu, 5/13/10, Syed Yunus wrote: From: Syed Yunus Subject: Re: [Reader-list] UID Project: 50 crores for marketing not education To: "A.K. Malik" Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Date: Thursday, May 13, 2010, 2:25 PM Interesting news, let me draw your attention towards a similar attempt to educate 'people' i.e *Financial Literacy.* ** Financial inclusion is gaining  attention in India these days. The self help movement that started in 80's got converted into microfinance because  it is easy to measures money as indicators of development. Traditional money lenders have been replaced by Non banking finance companies and now Foreign investors want to exploit the bottom of the pyramid. financial literacy have been advocated by the Microfinance giants to solve the problem of, multiple lending, un-ethical recovery and exploitative credit culture. Take a quick view of  the issues in the Microfinance sector india. Click here to see my latest film 'Responsible Finance ' , Duration 15 min. Thanks, Yunus On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 12:57 PM, A.K. Malik wrote: > HI Taha, >           News item may be of use to you. Rs 50 crores is being sanctioned > for the UID project to educate people about the UID Project.This amount will > be spent on tv, news media etc to educate people about the project. > Regards, > > (A.K.MALIK) > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- Change is the only constant in life ! _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From oishiksircar at gmail.com Thu May 13 16:27:34 2010 From: oishiksircar at gmail.com (OISHIK SIRCAR) Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 16:27:34 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Call for Articles: InfoChange Agenda issue on 'Access to Justice in India' Message-ID: Hello: As guest-editor of a forthcoming issue of *InfoChange Agenda* themed 'Access to Justice in India', I am writing to invite contributions to the issue. *InfoChange Agenda *has been conceived as a quarterly dossier that informs civil society on crucial issues of sustainable development and social justice, diversity and pluralism issues that are being pushed into the margins. It is designed to enable concerned citizens in India/ South Asia to marshal salient information, facts, figures, perspectives and reportage, so that they can clarify their ideas and participate in drawing up their own agenda for a more equitable and sustainable world. You can find more information on *InfoChange Agenda* and access the previous issues at www.infochangeindia.org The innovation of the marvel called ‘Public Interest Litigation’ (PIL) in the 1980s revolutionized the idea of ‘access to justice’ in India. It marked a moment in India’s judicial history that recognized the ways in which marginality adversely impacts on people’s ability to make use of the law to safeguard their rights. In the last two decades, how has the idea of PILs generally, and access to justice specifically undergone a transformation, in the face of an India that opened up to Liberalization, Privatization and Globalization from 1991 onwards? Have we been able to build on the innovation, or has it been abused/ subverted in the name of facilitating the poor and disadvantaged to more effectively engage with the law? Has the liberalization of the economy broadened the gap between the marginalized and the law? This issue of *InfoChange Agenda* will attempt to provide a background to the development of PILs and legal aid in India since the 1980 and then trace the contours of its development post liberalization. It will document the various strategies that human rights groups, lawyers and people’s movements have employed to use this tool to address rights concerns across a whole gamut of issues from prisoner’s rights to the environment. It will also address the rise of bodies like Khap Panchayat’s as perverse forms of extra-constitutional adjudication mechanisms that have received both societal and state sanction. Finally, the volume will address the question of the futures of access to justice in India looking at innovations beyond the PIL like fast-tract to virtual courts, arbitration, jan sunwais, lok adalats, the RTI and the recent Gram Nyayalay Act. Indicative themes are as follows: 1. 1. *Public Interest or Private Interest? PILs today* 1. *Poverty and Access to Justice: Legal Aid in India* 2. *Should “Terrorists” be defended?* 3. *Marketing Justice: The Privatisation of Human Rights* 4. *Access Denied: Law and Marginality* 5. *Righting Wrongs: Access to Justice and RTI* 6. *The Tragedy of Criminal Justice Reforms* 7. *Whither Judicial Activism? The Crisis in the Courts* 8. *NHRC: All Bark, No Bite?* 9. *30 million and counting: How do we climb the mountain of backlogs? Innovations in enhancing Access to Justice* 10. *Death Penalty: Suffocating Access to Justice* 11. *The Supreme Court’s ‘Conservative Turn’: Supporting the Market, Disadvantaging People* 12. *Tort Law: Is Compensation good enough remedy?* 13. *Litigating the Environment* 14. *Post-conflict Justice: Peace, without Rights?* 15. *SMS Justice: The Use of New Media* 16. *Good Governance: A panacea to inacess?* 17. *Indigenous Justice: Primitive or Progressive?* 18. *Strategy Talk: How to use access legislations like the NREGA or DV Act?* 19. *How to file a PIL: an ordinary person’s guide* The themes are not limited to these. You are welcome to write on anything else that is connected with the broader theme of 'Access to Justice in India'. Since *InfoChange Agenda* is not an academic journal, I request you to use minimal footnoting and make the pieces journalistic or feature-like. Please try and stick to a word limit of 2000-3000. The Centre for Communication and Development Studies (CCDS) that publishes the journal will be happy to pay an honorarium of Rs. 2000 for selected contributions. Please note the following timeline -- *Abstract Submission Deadline: June 30, 2010 Announcement of accepted abstracts: July 30, 2010 Article Submission Deadline: October 30, 2010 Tentative date for publication: February 2011.* Email your submissions to oishiksircar at gmail.com with 'Agenda: Access to Justice' in the subject line. For any clarifications, please feel free to write to me. Warmly, Oishik Sircar -- OISHIK SIRCAR oishiksircar at gmail.com oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca From the.solipsist at gmail.com Thu May 13 16:31:49 2010 From: the.solipsist at gmail.com (Pranesh Prakash) Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 16:31:49 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] UID CARD BENEFIT In-Reply-To: <148118.28077.qm@web112107.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <148118.28077.qm@web112107.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4BEBDC1D.6010508@gmail.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Wednesday 12 May 2010 04:54 PM, A.K. Malik wrote: > Why do you want to complicate a simple thing? Ask an uneducated person on the road, he will tell you the benefits of an ID Card. "Benefits? Huh. Why a uneducated person on the road could understand this ID card stuff! (Aside:) Run out and find me an uneducated person on the road, I can't make head or tail of it." -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkvr3BwACgkQ7JoSBR1cXwerpQCfRxo1p2ldEfL2AqWA2douUXYN YX8An2+8ubDxSv/pjMJC8lEWQX5jafKb =Gv7C -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Thu May 13 16:43:46 2010 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 04:13:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT In-Reply-To: <782035.39906.qm@web112115.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <244207.95853.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear AKM   I did not expect you to give me a ridiculous example of a Poll by a TV Channel (I am sure not more that a few thousand participants) being any kind of representative voice of the majority view. That too from an English Channel.   Shows a poor understanding of the non-value of such Polls.   If you had simply made an unauthenticated statement that the majority of Indians want the 'death-sentence' for Kasab, that could easily be accepted by me because of a sense of the people in general.   But, do I care, in this case, what the majority desires? No I dont. I am against the Death-Penalty and that suffices for me.   The 'Will of the Majority' cannot be used to justify any and all kinds of desires. I could give you many examples of idiocies that would have to be acted upon if we went by the criterion of enquiring the "Will of the Majority" on some issues/topics.   Please go ahead and do what you want with Ajmal Kasab for I cannot stop anyone. As for me, I am against the Death-penalty  for anyone, whatever be his/her crime.    I dont think this needs any further discussion with me. We both know each other's views.    Kshmendra   --- On Wed, 5/12/10, A.K. Malik wrote: From: A.K. Malik Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT To: "Kshmendra Kaul" Cc: "Sarai List" Date: Wednesday, May 12, 2010, 11:49 PM Dear Kaul Sahib,                  Thanks for the info. Just for your information one of the items in an NDTV Survey on UPA governance is a question: "Do you think 26/11 terrorist Kasab should have got death sentence or life imprisonment? It indicates    Death sentence     90.47%  Life imprisonment     8.05%  Don't know     1.48%  Total Votes: 4335 You would kindly see that most people are in favour of death penalty. Regards, (A.K.MALIK)  --- On Wed, 5/12/10, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > From: Kshmendra Kaul > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > To: "A.K. Malik" > Cc: "Sarai List" > Date: Wednesday, May 12, 2010, 6:21 PM > Dear AKM >   > Yes you are right. Somewhat right. >   > It was Home Secretary GK PIllai who said that Kasab > could be hanged within 8 months. But he also > indicated that period conditional to "If he does > not file any appeal anywhere". >   > Subsequently Law Minister Veerappa Moily did say that > even if Kasab filed an appeal the case could be and should > be fast-tracked and that Kasab will be hanged within a > year. >   > I was not wrong about the queue system for > clemency-appeals from Death Row. I read about that rule > being followed. (just one example here : http://ibnlive.in.com/news/afzal-sushil-santosh-waiting-on-death-row/114683-3.html?from=trhs ) > >   > Obviously it is not so and even if there is some > unwritten rule (as there seems to have been) then it  > can be circumvented at the choice of the Executive as can be > seen in the remarks of Abhishek Singhvi in this report : http://ibnlive.in.com/news/queue-not-caste-in-stone-in-kasabs-case-cong/114748-37-64.html?from=trhs >   > If the queue systen can be broken for fast-tracking > for one set of reasons (in Kasab's case) then it can > also be broken to delay for another set of reasons (in > Afzal Guru's case). >   > Since, as you know, I am against the Death-Penalty, > therefore I have no interest in exploring either set of > reasons for either or any other case. >   > In an earlier mail I had mentioned 29 people being on > the Death Row with Right of Appeal to President for Clemecy. > I was wrong about that too. It would be more than 50. In > August 2008 itself there were 50 as per response to a RTI > petition. Details here: > http://www.rtiindia.org/forum/6488-50-clemency-pleas-pending-before-prez.html >   > Kshmendra > > > --- On Wed, 5/12/10, A.K. Malik > wrote: > > > From: A.K. Malik > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > To: "Kshmendra Kaul" > > Cc: "Sarai List" > Date: Wednesday, May 12, 2010, 5:16 PM > > > Dear Mr Kaul, >              You > must have seen Times of India newsitem wherein Mr Moilly, > the Law Minister says that Kasab will be hanged in 8 months > time even if he files appeal.What happened to the Queue > system where mercy petitions are waiting? Is he going to > break the Q for poor Kasab and leave Afzal living? Something > is definitely fishy about Afzal being kept alive and not the > Q system you had relied upon. > Regards, > > (A.K.MALIK) > > > --- On Sun, 5/9/10, A.K. Malik > wrote: > > > From: A.K. Malik > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > To: "Kshmendra Kaul" > > Cc: "Sarai List" > > Date: Sunday, May 9, 2010, 11:54 AM > > Dear Mr Kaul, > >               I am > sorry > > to interrupt the thread between you and Mr Bipin, but > after > > reading your post couldn't resist writing back. > > 1&2.There is no harm in having an opinion/point of > view > > different than what is the law in force.So long as it > is not > > changed,the punishment would be based on the Supreme > Court > > verdict that death penalty should be given only in > rarest of > > rare cases and this is what has been done by the Judge > in > > the Kasab case.To give the convicted >  person a safeguard > > against a wrong conviction of death penalty,it is > mandatory > > for the sentence to be ratified in the next higher > court, in > > this case Bombay High Court. > > If HC doesn't consider it as rearest of the rare > case then > > it is a  different matter. > > 3.Ask the relatives of the persons killed by the > barbaric > > act of the terrorist who want the fellow to be hanged > in > > public/shot dead without trial even but the law of the > land > > has prevailed and must prevail. > > 4. Everyone on the road knows why Afzal Guru is not > being > > hanged.Anything rest is all bullshit.You have written > > that"There is a rule followed that each one will > await its > > turn for being accepted or being rejected. THIS IS > >  IMPORTANT.",just give a refernce to this > rule so that we > > also become aware.Even a clerk in Govt Office knows > to > > prioritise which file is to be >  sent early and which later > > but the Delhi Govt can't make up its mind to send > comments > > on Afzal's petition in 5 years.Even if such a rule > exists > > who stops the Govt from changing it by executive > > directions-because no such rule exists at all. I say > almost > > all such "mercy petitions" have some or the > other contacts > > in political and bureaucracy and are intentionally > being > > dragged. So long live Afzal because the earlier > petitions > > will never be decided in his life time.May be if Kasab > also > > gets the same stature as Afzal, he will also live on. > > Yes, we belong to Gandhiji's land so we don't > do anything > > to people who come and kill us and would rather say > come > > kill us and we will give you immunity from being > hanged and > > even punished and spend crores of rupees for your > safety. > > Long live Indian Politics! > > With regards, > > > > >  (A.K.MALIK) > > > > > > --- On Sat, 5/8/10, Kshmendra Kaul > > wrote: > > > > > From: Kshmendra Kaul > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > > To: "Bipin Trivedi" > > > Cc: "sarai-list" > > > Date: Saturday, May 8, 2010, 7:37 PM > > > Dear Bipin > > >   > > > We are >  talking in circles now. I will try to make this > > my > > > last post on this thread and you are most welcome > to > > have > > > the final say. > > >   > > > 1. To answer the easier question. Yes, in my > opinion, > > the > > > countries including India, USA, China, Pakistan > and > > > whosoever else, even if they total to 99% of the > > World > > > Population are BARBARIC in having the 'death > penalty' > > as > > > punishment for any crime whatsoever. > > >   > > >     I hope you understand that I > am not calling > > these > > > countries 'barbaric' in their sum-total, > but > > 'barbaric' with > > > regards to death-penalty. > > >   > > > 2. Yes our (Indian) Constitution permits the > 'death > > > penalty' and from my point of view that needs > to be > > changed. > > > And, because I want >  to see that changed therefore my > > > argument is not irrelevant but it is a mirror > for > > showing > > > the barbarism of death-penalty existing in the > > Constitution > > > and the blood-lust of those who are scream for > anyone > > at > > > all to be done to death for any crime > whatsoever. > > >   > > > 3. My (and presumably other 'people like > me') opposing > > the > > > 'death penalty' is not meant for saving > one person but > > for > > > saving every person who might be awarded the > death > > sentence > > > whether that person has killed 1 or a hundred or > > thousands. > > >   > > > 4. I tried to explain to you in the last mail why > the > > delay > > > in execution of Afzal Guru is not 'minority > > appeasement' but > > > I seem to have been unsuccessful. > > >   > > >    There >  are reportedly 29 'mercy petitions' like > > that > > > of Afzal Guru lying pending with the President > of > > India. > > >   > > >    Afzal Guru was sentenced to > death in 2004. > > >   > > >    Let me now give you some names of > those who were > > > awarded the death sentence before Afzal Guru and > you > > might > > > realise that there is no 'minority > appeasement' in > > play. > > >   > > >   Look at these names: Murugan; G. > > Perarivalan; Chinna > > > Shanthan;  Davinder Singh > > > > Bhullar ;  Simon; Gnanprakasham; Meesekar > > > Madaiah; Bilvendran; Gurdev > Singh; Satnam > > Singh; Para > > > Singh; Sarabjit Singh; Praveen Kumar > > >   > > >    There is a rule followed that each > one will await > > >  its > > > turn for being accepted or being rejected. THIS > IS > > > IMPORTANT. You have said that "Legal > experts clearly > > says > > > there is no such law to go with queue for death > > sentence > > > matter." Will you please tell me which > "Legal Experts" > > But, > > > isnt it logical that it should be turn by > turn.  > > >   > > >    Your main argument > for fast-tracking the > > execution of > > > Afzal Guru is "One must separate terrorists > conviction > > with > > > other conviction. Due to our this terror soft > > approach, we > > > are unable to fight terror to the extent what > actually > > we > > > should do." > > >   > > >    You are conveying that putting Afzal > Guru to > > death > > > speedily will deter other terrorists from > attacking > > India. > > > >    > > >    In this I disagree with you and let > me tell you > > why. > > > Bipin there is no evidence at all from any part > of the > > World > > > that executing the 'death sentence' for > any kind of a > > crime > > > leads to decrease in the incidence of that > particular > > crime. > > > If you have any such evidence please do share it. > You > > can > > > take the examples of the very countries you > mentioned > > USA, > > > China, Pakistan and you can add to that all > other > > countries > > > where the 'death penalty' is awarded and > executed. > > >   > > > As I said earlier, you can have the final say. > > >   > > > Kshmendra > > >   > > > > > > --- On Sat, 5/8/10, Bipin Trivedi > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > From: Bipin Trivedi > > > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > > To: "'Kshmendra Kaul'" > > > Cc: "sarai-list" > > > Date: Saturday, May 8, 2010, 10:54 AM > > > > > > > > > Dear Kshemendra, > > > > > > I have not at all missed the central point. > Politician > > go > > > out of law for > > > their selfish >  motto, but not for terror conviction. > > What's > > > the reason? Can > > > you tell? Just because of political mileage, > nothing > > else. > > > It's real problem > > > that people like you did not understand this. > Because > > they > > > were punished as > > > terrorists activity and so the special case and > not > > because > > > of their > > > religion. One must separate terrorists > conviction > > with > > > other conviction. Due > > > to our this terror soft approach, we are unable > to > > fight > > > terror to the > > > extent what actually we should do. > > > > > > I have never mentioned that Afsalguru should be > given > > > priority for > > > punishment because he belongs to minority, but > due to > > > terrorist act > > > conviction only. Whoever involved in this and > even in > > the > > > >  future any > > > religion should be treated as same for terror > > conviction. > > > > > > Afsalguru case is clear minor appeasement for > not > > executing > > > his conviction > > > and goes wrong message to terror groups and > encourage > > them > > > further. Legal > > > experts clearly says there is no such law to go > with > > queue > > > for death > > > sentence matter. Earlier such execution of death > > sentence > > > carried out, out > > > of turn in the couple of occasions. > > > > > > Constitution of India (SC) has already convicted > > death > > > sentence in 2006, > > > this cabinet for strange reason delaying it. So, > this > > is > > > clear minor > > > appeasement case Dear Kshemendra. This is where > > congress > > > lack will to fight > > > terrorism.  > > > >  > > > You personally oppose death sentence is > altogether > > > different issue. Our > > > constitution permits death sentence, so you > argument > > at > > > present is > > > irrelevant of blood thirsty animal from Indian > point > > of > > > view. It is > > > unfortunate that people like you oppose death > sentence > > for > > > the people who is > > > blood thirsty for hundreds or thousands of > people. You > > want > > > to save the life > > > of one person who engaged in blood bath and take > lives > > of > > > 100/1000 of > > > people!!! > > > > > > India is barbaric in your view by adopting death > > sentence > > > than those nation > > > like US, China, Pakistan and many more are also > > barbaric > > > for adopting this > > > law. This is about 70% of world population is > > >  barbaric > > > according to you! > > > > > > Thanks > > > Bipin > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Kshmendra Kaul [mailto:kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com] > > > > > > Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 4:10 PM > > > To: Bipin Trivedi > > > Cc: sarai-list > > > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > > > > > Dear Bipin > > >   > > > You have missed the central point. The > Constitution > > of > > > India gives that > > > right to Ajmal Kasab and also to Afzal Guru. > > >   > > > FYI Afzal Guru is not the only one who's > appeal for > > waiver > > > of 'death > > > penalty' is pending with the President. And > most of > > the > > > others are Hindus. > > > >  So stop obsessing about 'appeasement of > minorities' in > > this > > > case. > > >   > > > The Constitution of India is not so petty that it > will > > be > > > changed just > > > because you or someone else or even if millions > of > > Indians > > > want to deny > > > Kasab the tiered rights to Courts and appeal to > > President. > > >   > > > Bipin, one should not accuse others of behaving > > > like blood-thirsty animals > > > and then become a blood-thirsty animal > > himself/herself. > > >   > > > Kshmendra > > >   > > >   > > > --- On Fri, 5/7/10, Bipin Trivedi > > > wrote: > > > > > > From: Bipin Trivedi > > > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > > To: "'Kshmendra Kaul'" > > > Cc: "sarai-list" > > > Date: Friday, May 7, 2010, 3:37 PM > > > Dear Kshemendra, > > >   > > > Parliament can and has right to make such > decision if > > show > > > will. But, > > > congress cannot show such will, who prolonged > even > > > Afsalguru conviction > > > keeping pending for so long for their vote bank > > politics. > > > Comparison >  with > > > Shah Bano for the reason of vote bank politics > only > > to > > > appealing minor. > > > Reverting shah Bano verdict is classic example > of > > minor > > > appeasement and the > > > same case with Afsalguru and I am fear for Kasav > also > > same > > > thing might > > > happen. > > >   > > > Thanks > > > Bipin > > >   > > >   > > >   > > >   > > > From: Kshmendra Kaul [mailto:kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com] > > > > > > Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 1:35 PM > > > To: sarai-list; Bipin Trivedi > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > >   > > > Dear Bipin > > >   > > > A. I am against the death penalty for anyone for >  any > > crime > > > whatsoever. I > > > believe the 'death penalty' is > awarded in barbaric > > > societies, and yes, India > > > is still barbaric in many ways. > > >   > > > B. You might disagree on the above. That does > not > > change > > > the opportunity > > > allowed in India for anyone convicted in a crime > in a > > Lower > > > Court to take > > > the matter to a Higher Cour.  > > >   > > >      Since it is a question > of a 'death penalty', > > Kasab > > > has the right to > > > have his case heard by the Higher Courts right > upto > > the > > > Supreme Court. After > > > that he has the right to appeal to the President > for > > waiver > > > of the 'death > > > penalty'. The Constitution of India provides > that > > right. > > > You cannot compare > > >  > Civil Law of the Shah Bano case witha 'death > penalty' > > being > > > awarded.  > > >   > > >      No one can take that > right away from Kasab. > > >   > > > Kshmendra > > >    > > >   > > > --- On Thu, 5/6/10, Bipin Trivedi > > > wrote: > > >   > > > From: Bipin Trivedi > > > Subject: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > > To: "sarai-list" > > > Date: Thursday, May 6, 2010, 3:33 >  PM > > > AS EXPECTED, KASAV RIGHTLY GOT DEATH SENTENCE. > > >   > > > Though terrorist's Kasav case was crystal > clear, but > > still > > > we have gone for > > > about 17 months fair trial and proved that how > > transparent > > > our judicial > > > system is unlike Pakistan. But, after this trial > and > > > judgment, he should not > > > allow to appeal in the higher court and should > be > > hanged in > > > public > > > immediately without further judicial procedure. > if > > Indira > > > Gandhi (ex PM) > > > deny to obey court verdict and neglect law and > Shah > > Banu > > > case was revert out > > > of law by parliament than why cannot this? India > > should > > > show the world that > > > country cannot compromise in integrity and take > hard > > action > > > if required like > > > open public >  death sentence. > > >   > > > Thanks > > > Bipin > > >   > > >   > > >   > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the > > > city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > with subscribe > > > in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > >   > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > >       > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the > > > city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > with subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >        From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Thu May 13 16:52:02 2010 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 12:22:02 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] UID Project Propaganda Money Message-ID: Dear AK Malik, Thank you for your mail. I think this fifty crore is peanuts. The money apportioned to spread a notion identity can be trapped by a twelve digit number is going to go up. You just wait and watch. All lies need an army of howlers to make it appear like truth. I am sure UIDAI will hire the best in business. People who for generations have made us believe in the transformative powers of a soap will be used to unleash a virulent charm. You just wait and watch. UID number will appear magical to all of us now. The magic of the state will have a new coating. You just wait and watch. Any national identity card helps make a state appears like an ideal. The appearance of a messy business of governance goes away to a neat and clean image. Click. Click of a mouse. That's the ideal which UID is pushing for. We would know who is who on the click of a mouse. We would know how many of them exists on the click of a mouse. We would know what to do with them on the click of a mouse. Click. Click of a mouse that's the ideal which UID is pushing for. The ideal of a state will be as follows. Neat and clean computer screens. Uniform humming of servers. Air conditioned environments. And soft voices with which they will speak to each other. The officious tone with which they will address members of public not as human beings but as numbers. A plastic card will represent the new ideal. It will all depend on a Click. Click of a mouse. Just like the big dam represented the ideal of the state back then. Against this ideal is the dust which floats across the idea of India. Just take a walk. Take a walk along any nearest two mile radius. Meet and greet every one who lives there. Do a survey. Do a census. Your own personal census. See how many of us have documents to prove who we are. I am sure you will find atleast a hundred people who do not have any papers. I am sure there will be many of us who would just gawk at you for mentioning the word -paper-. The act of gawking would increase with the amount of distance you traverse from the center. The heart of India, just like any other heart is dark. It bloody. It is messy. Once there, one can only hear the sound of silence. The rhythmic beats of an endless cycle of life. Life is only made up of here and now. At some spaces there are simply no elsewhere. It's like any other heart. Systole and diastole. That is its identity. And the pause in between. The void. The deep unknown. Which makes it fuzzy. Mr. Nilekani is a dreamer. He dreams. That's for sure. He dreams ideal dreams. Click. Click of a mouse. Maybe that's what on his mind. I wonder how he will capture the heart of India. He says that he will do it. He will do it just like they introduce people at a bank. A person will vouch for another person's identity. And so on. Till the network of castes will allow the harvesters of identity to collect a billion marks. A nation will split itself inside out to reveal who we are. No wonder they are doing a caste census along side. You just wait and watch. Click. Click of a mouse. That's the ideal they are pushing for. Mr. Nilekani is a dreamer. He says that he will do it. He will do it just like they introduce people at a bank. A person will vouch for another person's identity. We are nation of millions of undocumented. We would require lots of people to introduce ourselves to members of Nilekani's party. People who will tell the engraver who we are. The engraver will create an archive of impressions based on hearsay. Voice will transform into bits of data. Data will transform into plastic. And we will finally know that we are all Indians because now we will have a plastic card, a shinning plastic card to prove who we are. The new ideal of a state is the power to access the collective memory of who we are. The magic is such that we don't want to bother even if we know that it is based on an imperfect archive of hearsay's. Click. Click of a mouse. That's the ideal they are pushing for. Don't they know that dust of India awaits them. Warm regards Taha From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Thu May 13 17:10:35 2010 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 04:40:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT In-Reply-To: <000301caf25d$148dfb50$3da9f1f0$@in> Message-ID: <346345.44456.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Bipin   You are confused.    How can I possibly be  defending the "government on the queue system" when the government itself is saying (Moily as Law Minister & Singhvi as Congress Spokesperson) that they have no interest in adhering to any kind of a 'queue system'.    I am neither Educated nor 'Politically well aware' so do not expect from me what you expect from such people.   Obviously, you have not read the webpages I forwarded. Both refer to a 'rule' or 'queue' .  See these words:   1. "... execution might not come early as there are already 29 other convicts who are currently on death row. As per the rule, Kasab cannot be executed until the backlog is cleared." That is from http://ibnlive.in.com/news/afzal-sushil-santosh-waiting-on-death-row/114683-3.html?from=trhs    2. "There's a concern because there's a queue system. ............. Efforts are being made to clear the backlog. But equally a process has to be followed. I don't at all subscribe to the view that Kasab is cast in stone in any queue,"   As I told AKM, please go ahead and do what you want to with Ajmal Kasab. I am against putting to death anyone for any crime but I cannot stop anyone from doing it.   We both know each other's views so there is no scope for any further discussion   Kshmendra --- On Thu, 5/13/10, Bipin Trivedi wrote: From: Bipin Trivedi Subject: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT To: "sarai-list" Date: Thursday, May 13, 2010, 10:58 AM Dear Kshemendra, You are against the death penalty that is understandable as your personnel view, but why you defend government on the queue system when as such no such law exists. By mentioning both website you tried to convince about the rule is there for queue system. Both the site you mentioned does not mentioned any rule. Our main argument is this only that there is no such rule and one must take decision with their own instinct which is to be execute first. If you ask political/law illiterate person that the man convicted for parliament attack should be handled more seriously with priority. Educated and politically well aware people like you does not understand this is strange thing. But, unnecessarily defend the government for their politically motivated act for the political gain. Thanks Bipin -----Original Message----- From: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net [mailto:reader-list-bounces at sarai.net] On Behalf Of Kshmendra Kaul Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2010 6:21 PM To: A.K. Malik Cc: Sarai List Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT Dear AKM Yes you are right. Somewhat right. It was Home Secretary GK PIllai who said that Kasab could be hanged within 8 months. But he also indicated that period conditional to "If he does not file any appeal anywhere". Subsequently Law Minister Veerappa Moily did say that even if Kasab filed an appeal the case could be and should be fast-tracked and that Kasab will be hanged within a year. I was not wrong about the queue system for clemency-appeals from Death Row. I read about that rule being followed. (just one example here : http://ibnlive.in.com/news/afzal-sushil-santosh-waiting-on-death-row/114683-3.html?from=trhs ) Obviously it is not so and even if there is some unwritten rule (as there seems to have been) then it  can be circumvented at the choice of the Executive as can be seen in the remarks of Abhishek Singhvi in this report : http://ibnlive.in.com/news/queue-not-caste-in-stone-in-kasabs-case-cong/114748-37-64.html?from=trhs If the queue systen can be broken for fast-tracking for one set of reasons (in Kasab's case) then it can also be broken to delay for another set of reasons (in Afzal Guru's case). Since, as you know, I am against the Death-Penalty, therefore I have no interest in exploring either set of reasons for either or any other case. In an earlier mail I had mentioned 29 people being on the Death Row with Right of Appeal to President for Clemecy. I was wrong about that too. It would be more than 50. In August 2008 itself there were 50 as per response to a RTI petition. Details here: http://www.rtiindia.org/forum/6488-50-clemency-pleas-pending-before-prez.html Kshmendra --- On Wed, 5/12/10, A.K. Malik wrote: From: A.K. Malik Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT To: "Kshmendra Kaul" Cc: "Sarai List" Date: Wednesday, May 12, 2010, 5:16 PM Dear Mr Kaul,              You must have seen Times of India newsitem wherein Mr Moilly, the Law Minister says that Kasab will be hanged in 8 months time even if he files appeal.What happened to the Queue system where mercy petitions are waiting? Is he going to break the Q for poor Kasab and leave Afzal living? Something is definitely fishy about Afzal being kept alive and not the Q system you had relied upon. Regards, (A.K.MALIK) --- On Sun, 5/9/10, A.K. Malik wrote: > From: A.K. Malik > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > To: "Kshmendra Kaul" > Cc: "Sarai List" > Date: Sunday, May 9, 2010, 11:54 AM > Dear Mr Kaul, >               I am sorry > to interrupt the thread between you and Mr Bipin, but after > reading your post couldn't resist writing back. > 1&2.There is no harm in having an opinion/point of view > different than what is the law in force.So long as it is not > changed,the punishment would be based on the Supreme Court > verdict that death penalty should be given only in rarest of > rare cases and this is what has been done by the Judge in > the Kasab case.To give the convicted person a safeguard > against a wrong conviction of death penalty,it is mandatory > for the sentence to be ratified in the next higher court, in > this case Bombay High Court. > If HC doesn't consider it as rearest of the rare case then > it is a  different matter. > 3.Ask the relatives of the persons killed by the barbaric > act of the terrorist who want the fellow to be hanged in > public/shot dead without trial even but the law of the land > has prevailed and must prevail. > 4. Everyone on the road knows why Afzal Guru is not being > hanged.Anything rest is all bullshit.You have written > that"There is a rule followed that each one will await its > turn for being accepted or being rejected. THIS IS >  IMPORTANT.",just give a refernce to this rule so that we > also become aware.Even a clerk in Govt Office knows to > prioritise which file is to be sent early and which later > but the Delhi Govt can't make up its mind to send comments > on Afzal's petition in 5 years.Even if such a rule exists > who stops the Govt from changing it by executive > directions-because no such rule exists at all. I say almost > all such "mercy petitions" have some or the other contacts > in political and bureaucracy and are intentionally being > dragged. So long live Afzal because the earlier petitions > will never be decided in his life time.May be if Kasab also > gets the same stature as Afzal, he will also live on. > Yes, we belong to Gandhiji's land so we don't do anything > to people who come and kill us and would rather say come > kill us and we will give you immunity from being hanged and > even punished and spend crores of rupees for your safety. > Long live Indian Politics! > With regards, > > (A.K.MALIK) > > > --- On Sat, 5/8/10, Kshmendra Kaul > wrote: > > > From: Kshmendra Kaul > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > To: "Bipin Trivedi" > > Cc: "sarai-list" > > Date: Saturday, May 8, 2010, 7:37 PM > > Dear Bipin > >  > > We are talking in circles now. I will try to make this > my > > last post on this thread and you are most welcome to > have > > the final say. > >  > > 1. To answer the easier question. Yes, in my opinion, > the > > countries including India, USA, China, Pakistan and > > whosoever else, even if they total to 99% of the > World > > Population are BARBARIC in having the 'death penalty' > as > > punishment for any crime whatsoever. > >  > >     I hope you understand that I am not calling > these > > countries 'barbaric' in their sum-total, but > 'barbaric' with > > regards to death-penalty. > >  > > 2. Yes our (Indian) Constitution permits the 'death > > penalty' and from my point of view that needs to be > changed. > > And, because I want to see that changed therefore my > > argument is not irrelevant but it is a mirror for > showing > > the barbarism of death-penalty existing in the > Constitution > > and the blood-lust of those who are scream for anyone > at > > all to be done to death for any crime whatsoever. > >  > > 3. My (and presumably other 'people like me') opposing > the > > 'death penalty' is not meant for saving one person but > for > > saving every person who might be awarded the death > sentence > > whether that person has killed 1 or a hundred or > thousands. > >  > > 4. I tried to explain to you in the last mail why the > delay > > in execution of Afzal Guru is not 'minority > appeasement' but > > I seem to have been unsuccessful. > >  > >    There are reportedly 29 'mercy petitions' like > that > > of Afzal Guru lying pending with the President of > India. > >  > >    Afzal Guru was sentenced to death in 2004. > >  > >    Let me now give you some names of those who were > > awarded the death sentence before Afzal Guru and you > might > > realise that there is no 'minority appeasement' in > play. > >  > >   Look at these names: Murugan; G. > Perarivalan; Chinna > > Shanthan;  Davinder Singh > > Bhullar ;  Simon; Gnanprakasham; Meesekar > > Madaiah; Bilvendran; Gurdev Singh; Satnam > Singh; Para > > Singh; Sarabjit Singh; Praveen Kumar > >  > >    There is a rule followed that each one will await > its > > turn for being accepted or being rejected. THIS IS > > IMPORTANT. You have said that "Legal experts clearly > says > > there is no such law to go with queue for death > sentence > > matter." Will you please tell me which "Legal Experts" > But, > > isnt it logical that it should be turn by turn. > >  > >    Your main argument for fast-tracking the > execution of > > Afzal Guru is "One must separate terrorists conviction > with > > other conviction. Due to our this terror soft > approach, we > > are unable to fight terror to the extent what actually > we > > should do." > >  > >    You are conveying that putting Afzal Guru to > death > > speedily will deter other terrorists from attacking > India. > >  > >    In this I disagree with you and let me tell you > why. > > Bipin there is no evidence at all from any part of the > World > > that executing the 'death sentence' for any kind of a > crime > > leads to decrease in the incidence of that particular > crime. > > If you have any such evidence please do share it. You > can > > take the examples of the very countries you mentioned > USA, > > China, Pakistan and you can add to that all other > countries > > where the 'death penalty' is awarded and executed. > >  > > As I said earlier, you can have the final say. > >  > > Kshmendra > >  > > > > --- On Sat, 5/8/10, Bipin Trivedi > > wrote: > > > > > > From: Bipin Trivedi > > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > To: "'Kshmendra Kaul'" > > Cc: "sarai-list" > > Date: Saturday, May 8, 2010, 10:54 AM > > > > > > Dear Kshemendra, > > > > I have not at all missed the central point. Politician > go > > out of law for > > their selfish motto, but not for terror conviction. > What's > > the reason? Can > > you tell? Just because of political mileage, nothing > else. > > It's real problem > > that people like you did not understand this. Because > they > > were punished as > > terrorists activity and so the special case and not > because > > of their > > religion. One must separate terrorists conviction > with > > other conviction. Due > > to our this terror soft approach, we are unable to > fight > > terror to the > > extent what actually we should do. > > > > I have never mentioned that Afsalguru should be given > > priority for > > punishment because he belongs to minority, but due to > > terrorist act > > conviction only. Whoever involved in this and even in > the > > future any > > religion should be treated as same for terror > conviction. > > > > Afsalguru case is clear minor appeasement for not > executing > > his conviction > > and goes wrong message to terror groups and encourage > them > > further. Legal > > experts clearly says there is no such law to go with > queue > > for death > > sentence matter. Earlier such execution of death > sentence > > carried out, out > > of turn in the couple of occasions. > > > > Constitution of India (SC) has already convicted > death > > sentence in 2006, > > this cabinet for strange reason delaying it. So, this > is > > clear minor > > appeasement case Dear Kshemendra. This is where > congress > > lack will to fight > > terrorism.  > > > > You personally oppose death sentence is altogether > > different issue. Our > > constitution permits death sentence, so you argument > at > > present is > > irrelevant of blood thirsty animal from Indian point > of > > view. It is > > unfortunate that people like you oppose death sentence > for > > the people who is > > blood thirsty for hundreds or thousands of people. You > want > > to save the life > > of one person who engaged in blood bath and take lives > of > > 100/1000 of > > people!!! > > > > India is barbaric in your view by adopting death > sentence > > than those nation > > like US, China, Pakistan and many more are also > barbaric > > for adopting this > > law. This is about 70% of world population is > barbaric > > according to you! > > > > Thanks > > Bipin > > > > > > > > From: Kshmendra Kaul [mailto:kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com] > > > > Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 4:10 PM > > To: Bipin Trivedi > > Cc: sarai-list > > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > > > Dear Bipin > >  > > You have missed the central point. The Constitution > of > > India gives that > > right to Ajmal Kasab and also to Afzal Guru. > >  > > FYI Afzal Guru is not the only one who's appeal for > waiver > > of 'death > > penalty' is pending with the President. And most of > the > > others are Hindus. > > So stop obsessing about 'appeasement of minorities' in > this > > case. > >  > > The Constitution of India is not so petty that it will > be > > changed just > > because you or someone else or even if millions of > Indians > > want to deny > > Kasab the tiered rights to Courts and appeal to > President. > >  > > Bipin, one should not accuse others of behaving > > like blood-thirsty animals > > and then become a blood-thirsty animal > himself/herself. > >  > > Kshmendra > >  > >  > > --- On Fri, 5/7/10, Bipin Trivedi > > wrote: > > > > From: Bipin Trivedi > > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > To: "'Kshmendra Kaul'" > > Cc: "sarai-list" > > Date: Friday, May 7, 2010, 3:37 PM > > Dear Kshemendra, > >  > > Parliament can and has right to make such decision if > show > > will. But, > > congress cannot show such will, who prolonged even > > Afsalguru conviction > > keeping pending for so long for their vote bank > politics. > > Comparison with > > Shah Bano for the reason of vote bank politics only > to > > appealing minor. > > Reverting shah Bano verdict is classic example of > minor > > appeasement and the > > same case with Afsalguru and I am fear for Kasav also > same > > thing might > > happen. > >  > > Thanks > > Bipin > >  > >  > >  > >  > > From: Kshmendra Kaul [mailto:kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com] > > > > Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 1:35 PM > > To: sarai-list; Bipin Trivedi > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > >  > > Dear Bipin > >  > > A. I am against the death penalty for anyone for any > crime > > whatsoever. I > > believe the 'death penalty' is awarded in barbaric > > societies, and yes, India > > is still barbaric in many ways. > >  > > B. You might disagree on the above. That does not > change > > the opportunity > > allowed in India for anyone convicted in a crime in a > Lower > > Court to take > > the matter to a Higher Cour.  > >  > >      Since it is a question of a 'death penalty', > Kasab > > has the right to > > have his case heard by the Higher Courts right upto > the > > Supreme Court. After > > that he has the right to appeal to the President for > waiver > > of the 'death > > penalty'. The Constitution of India provides that > right. > > You cannot compare > > Civil Law of the Shah Bano case witha 'death penalty' > being > > awarded. > >  > >      No one can take that right away from Kasab. > >  > > Kshmendra > >    > >  > > --- On Thu, 5/6/10, Bipin Trivedi > > wrote: > >  > > From: Bipin Trivedi > > Subject: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > To: "sarai-list" > > Date: Thursday, May 6, 2010, 3:33 PM > > AS EXPECTED, KASAV RIGHTLY GOT DEATH SENTENCE. > >  > > Though terrorist's Kasav case was crystal clear, but > still > > we have gone for > > about 17 months fair trial and proved that how > transparent > > our judicial > > system is unlike Pakistan. But, after this trial and > > judgment, he should not > > allow to appeal in the higher court and should be > hanged in > > public > > immediately without further judicial procedure. if > Indira > > Gandhi (ex PM) > > deny to obey court verdict and neglect law and Shah > Banu > > case was revert out > > of law by parliament than why cannot this? India > should > > show the world that > > country cannot compromise in integrity and take hard > action > > if required like > > open public death sentence. > >  > > Thanks > > Bipin > >  > >  > >  > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > > city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with subscribe > > in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >  > > > > > > > > > > > >        > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > > city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > >       _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From aliens at dataone.in Thu May 13 17:13:26 2010 From: aliens at dataone.in (Bipin Trivedi) Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 17:13:26 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] UID CARD BENEFIT In-Reply-To: References: <000c01caef93$1d829ad0$5887d070$@in> <000301caf033$2c3f8880$84be9980$@in> <000f01caf065$361fd760$a25f8620$@in> <37D87DBF6CB64AA2B4E82E6DE34FE64F@butterfliesdelhi.local> <002901caf0fb$271beec0$7553cc40$@butterfliesindia.org> Message-ID: <000801caf291$80703f20$8150bd60$@in> Dear Taha, Since you seem very possessive about your identity, so I asked you that question. Sorry, if you felt bad. Let me answer that your identity can define by only one person, your MOTHER. Since, she took care and pain to define you. Certain things you cannot define but feel it. For ex. Wind you cannot see but feel it. All the things what we see or feel cannot define or prove but we have to accept it with faith whoever says it. Your identity can be defined with your physical name Taha which your mother recognize and everyone your surrounding have to believe and put faith in your mother. In broader prospect, you are Indian citizen that is your identity. In any religion, our land where we live is considered as our mother. In English the world MOTHERLAND, in Hindi BHARATMATA indicates this only. I don't know Urdu but there must be similar world in Urdu also. Anyway, apart from philosophy let us come to the main point. After school, when you go to college, you have to disclose your identity by preparing your I-card, will you deny this also? So, when you become mature (above 18) you have to start disclosing your identity by many ways like I-card, driving license, election photo card, passport. With your belief, I think you must opposing recent census going on where you have to disclose so many things, more than UID. What is your opinion for it? Today you communicate very fast by way of mobile, internet or there is a telecommunication revolution going on in India in very short span, why? Because of Sam Pitroda, a technocrat. Rajiv Gandhi brought him and gave him cabinet ministry authority. Same as Nilkeni got today. At that time also many opposed this but Rajiv rightly remain firm and you can see the result today. Today it is time to give ministerial portfolio to technocrat rather to give it to politician. IAS cadre cannot fool if the Knowledgeable and technocrat person is there and corruption also comes under control. Since, major corruption is done by IAS officers. You gave the ex. of doctor. But, when you go to doctor for some treatment, you have to put faith on him/her and if you follow the treatment with doubt, there is least chance of recovery. Since, though you take medicine prescribed by the dr. but mentally you do not accept it. This mental position will not allow recovery. Mind plays major role in our health. So, when you do something new/revolutionary you have to keep faith in technocrat specifically chosen for that purpose. Do you have election photo card or you oppose that also and not allowed to prepare yet? If no then let me complain to election department hahaha (take it easy). I remember in 90's when election photo card campaign was going on, Lalu and other similar orthodox opposed it heavily and plainly denied applying in Bihar and other places. It is unfortunate that such a ridiculous and so called leader ruled Bihar for 20 years. Bihar bound to remain backward with such orthodox leadership. What is the position today, election photo card has proven success and resulted to fair election without any malpractices. So, telecommunication revolution, election card success all these can be achieved by technocrat and without identity hurdles. Same thing will be for UID and I have no doubt of its success. Actually, these are all counted as infrastructural development only. Along with physical infrastructure this virtual infrastructure is equally important. Do answer regarding recent census, you oppose this also? However, I heard some news that it will ask for caste also. I with full heart, oppose this. We are taking census of total human being, where the caste arises in the picture. Such step is actually communal and spread the communalism. Sorry, but congress again with spreading communalism. UId financial aspect which is too high as described will be discussed in the mail to follow. Thanks Bipin -----Original Message----- From: Taha Mehmood [mailto:2tahamehmood at googlemail.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2010 5:41 PM To: Shashidhar Cc: Bipin Trivedi; sarai-list Subject: Re: [Reader-list] UID CARD BENEFIT Dear Bipin and Shahidhar, Thank you for your responses. Enumeration is fine with me. You count a person, you attach a figure. Simple and straightforward. Any act of governance needs that. I do not have a problem with it. Identity is a tricky issue. It's a fuzzy issue. The word is fuzzy. Is it not vague? Does it not mean many things? Can it be be categorized by a singular notion? The GOI is transferring 1.5 Lakh crore rupees in the name of identity. And Bipin I do not know who can define a unit of measurement of identity. I am not interested in who. I am not bothered by who. Who can be tom, dick or harry or a sita or a gita or ram or a rahim for all I care. I am interested in How and Why and What. So I would be glad if you could forgo who and tell me how identity can be measured, by what means and why those means represent a true measurement of a person's identity? Please allow me explain what I mean- If the pharmacist makes a drug without going into the nature of what constitutes the elements of that drug, what does that drug do, what illness can it alleviate and gives that drug to a doctor and the doctor prescribes that drug to you without diagnosing you, without verifying the nature of your illness and without establishing whether this drug is the only drug amongst all the drugs which are available in a market which can alleviate your illness. Will you take that drug Bipin? Simply because a doctor of medicine has given it to you? Will you be so charmed by the packaging of the drug that you will suspend doubt? Will you be so in awe of man in white clothes that you will give in because the name tag in front of his room says MD MBBS? Or will you allow doubt to enter, Bipin? Think! In the similar manner, can we not think about the people of India as a body? Are we not told that some parts of our body are getting weak because they are not nourished? Are we not prescribed a medicine in the name of UID? Is it not our responsibility to doubt, both as individuals and as a collective, to assess whether such a drug is good or not? Because if it a bad drug it might effect the life of our entire body which includes you and me Bipin. Who would we blame then, Bipin. Governments come and go. That's the nature of governance. But we are here to stay. That's the nature of people. UID is build on the idea of identity. Identity is a fuzzy notion. It is a vague idea. It means many things to many people. It might mean one thing to many people. It might also mean many things to one person. Or it might mean nothing to no one. or every thing to every one. In every case the meaning, the nature of identity is inconsistent. Should we not allow this inconsistency in meaning of identity to remain? Warm regards Taha From aliens at dataone.in Thu May 13 17:49:25 2010 From: aliens at dataone.in (Bipin Trivedi) Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 17:49:25 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT In-Reply-To: <346345.44456.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <000301caf25d$148dfb50$3da9f1f0$@in> <346345.44456.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000c01caf296$88588800$99099800$@in> The news report like ibnlive you have mentioned. But, it don't have reporter name/author name of the report. They mention as per rule, but not mentioning any law detail how can one believe it. Ibnlive loses prestige by such reporting. Moily and Singhvi said about no interest adhere queue system, perhaps keeping Kasav case in mind, but for Afsal they want to follow that system. Double speak? All leading lawyers have already expressed their views and deny about existence of such law. From: Kshmendra Kaul [mailto:kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2010 5:11 PM To: sarai-list; Bipin Trivedi Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT Dear Bipin You are confused. How can I possibly be defending the "government on the queue system" when the government itself is saying (Moily as Law Minister & Singhvi as Congress Spokesperson) that they have no interest in adhering to any kind of a 'queue system'. I am neither Educated nor 'Politically well aware' so do not expect from me what you expect from such people. Obviously, you have not read the webpages I forwarded. Both refer to a 'rule' or 'queue' . See these words: 1. "... execution might not come early as there are already 29 other convicts who are currently on death row. As per the rule, Kasab cannot be executed until the backlog is cleared." That is from http://ibnlive.in.com/news/afzal-sushil-santosh-waiting-on-death-row/114683- 3.html?from=trhs 2. "There's a concern because there's a queue system. ............. Efforts are being made to clear the backlog. But equally a process has to be followed. I don't at all subscribe to the view that Kasab is cast in stone in any queue," As I told AKM, please go ahead and do what you want to with Ajmal Kasab. I am against putting to death anyone for any crime but I cannot stop anyone from doing it. We both know each other's views so there is no scope for any further discussion Kshmendra --- On Thu, 5/13/10, Bipin Trivedi wrote: From: Bipin Trivedi Subject: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT To: "sarai-list" Date: Thursday, May 13, 2010, 10:58 AM Dear Kshemendra, You are against the death penalty that is understandable as your personnel view, but why you defend government on the queue system when as such no such law exists. By mentioning both website you tried to convince about the rule is there for queue system. Both the site you mentioned does not mentioned any rule. Our main argument is this only that there is no such rule and one must take decision with their own instinct which is to be execute first. If you ask political/law illiterate person that the man convicted for parliament attack should be handled more seriously with priority. Educated and politically well aware people like you does not understand this is strange thing. But, unnecessarily defend the government for their politically motivated act for the political gain. Thanks Bipin -----Original Message----- From: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net [mailto:reader-list-bounces at sarai.net ] On Behalf Of Kshmendra Kaul Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2010 6:21 PM To: A.K. Malik Cc: Sarai List Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT Dear AKM Yes you are right. Somewhat right. It was Home Secretary GK PIllai who said that Kasab could be hanged within 8 months. But he also indicated that period conditional to "If he does not file any appeal anywhere". Subsequently Law Minister Veerappa Moily did say that even if Kasab filed an appeal the case could be and should be fast-tracked and that Kasab will be hanged within a year. I was not wrong about the queue system for clemency-appeals from Death Row. I read about that rule being followed. (just one example here : http://ibnlive.in.com/news/afzal-sushil-santosh-waiting-on-death-row/114683- 3.html?from=trhs ) Obviously it is not so and even if there is some unwritten rule (as there seems to have been) then it can be circumvented at the choice of the Executive as can be seen in the remarks of Abhishek Singhvi in this report : http://ibnlive.in.com/news/queue-not-caste-in-stone-in-kasabs-case-cong/1147 48-37-64.html?from=trhs If the queue systen can be broken for fast-tracking for one set of reasons (in Kasab's case) then it can also be broken to delay for another set of reasons (in Afzal Guru's case). Since, as you know, I am against the Death-Penalty, therefore I have no interest in exploring either set of reasons for either or any other case. In an earlier mail I had mentioned 29 people being on the Death Row with Right of Appeal to President for Clemecy. I was wrong about that too. It would be more than 50. In August 2008 itself there were 50 as per response to a RTI petition. Details here: http://www.rtiindia.org/forum/6488-50-clemency-pleas-pending-before-prez.htm l Kshmendra --- On Wed, 5/12/10, A.K. Malik > wrote: From: A.K. Malik > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT To: "Kshmendra Kaul" > Cc: "Sarai List" > Date: Wednesday, May 12, 2010, 5:16 PM Dear Mr Kaul, You must have seen Times of India newsitem wherein Mr Moilly, the Law Minister says that Kasab will be hanged in 8 months time even if he files appeal.What happened to the Queue system where mercy petitions are waiting? Is he going to break the Q for poor Kasab and leave Afzal living? Something is definitely fishy about Afzal being kept alive and not the Q system you had relied upon. Regards, (A.K.MALIK) --- On Sun, 5/9/10, A.K. Malik > wrote: > From: A.K. Malik > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > To: "Kshmendra Kaul" > > Cc: "Sarai List" > > Date: Sunday, May 9, 2010, 11:54 AM > Dear Mr Kaul, > I am sorry > to interrupt the thread between you and Mr Bipin, but after > reading your post couldn't resist writing back. > 1&2.There is no harm in having an opinion/point of view > different than what is the law in force.So long as it is not > changed,the punishment would be based on the Supreme Court > verdict that death penalty should be given only in rarest of > rare cases and this is what has been done by the Judge in > the Kasab case.To give the convicted person a safeguard > against a wrong conviction of death penalty,it is mandatory > for the sentence to be ratified in the next higher court, in > this case Bombay High Court. > If HC doesn't consider it as rearest of the rare case then > it is a different matter. > 3.Ask the relatives of the persons killed by the barbaric > act of the terrorist who want the fellow to be hanged in > public/shot dead without trial even but the law of the land > has prevailed and must prevail. > 4. Everyone on the road knows why Afzal Guru is not being > hanged.Anything rest is all bullshit.You have written > that"There is a rule followed that each one will await its > turn for being accepted or being rejected. THIS IS > IMPORTANT.",just give a refernce to this rule so that we > also become aware.Even a clerk in Govt Office knows to > prioritise which file is to be sent early and which later > but the Delhi Govt can't make up its mind to send comments > on Afzal's petition in 5 years.Even if such a rule exists > who stops the Govt from changing it by executive > directions-because no such rule exists at all. I say almost > all such "mercy petitions" have some or the other contacts > in political and bureaucracy and are intentionally being > dragged. So long live Afzal because the earlier petitions > will never be decided in his life time.May be if Kasab also > gets the same stature as Afzal, he will also live on. > Yes, we belong to Gandhiji's land so we don't do anything > to people who come and kill us and would rather say come > kill us and we will give you immunity from being hanged and > even punished and spend crores of rupees for your safety. > Long live Indian Politics! > With regards, > > (A.K.MALIK) > > > --- On Sat, 5/8/10, Kshmendra Kaul > > wrote: > > > From: Kshmendra Kaul > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > To: "Bipin Trivedi" > > > Cc: "sarai-list" > > > Date: Saturday, May 8, 2010, 7:37 PM > > Dear Bipin > > > > We are talking in circles now. I will try to make this > my > > last post on this thread and you are most welcome to > have > > the final say. > > > > 1. To answer the easier question. Yes, in my opinion, > the > > countries including India, USA, China, Pakistan and > > whosoever else, even if they total to 99% of the > World > > Population are BARBARIC in having the 'death penalty' > as > > punishment for any crime whatsoever. > > > > I hope you understand that I am not calling > these > > countries 'barbaric' in their sum-total, but > 'barbaric' with > > regards to death-penalty. > > > > 2. Yes our (Indian) Constitution permits the 'death > > penalty' and from my point of view that needs to be > changed. > > And, because I want to see that changed therefore my > > argument is not irrelevant but it is a mirror for > showing > > the barbarism of death-penalty existing in the > Constitution > > and the blood-lust of those who are scream for anyone > at > > all to be done to death for any crime whatsoever. > > > > 3. My (and presumably other 'people like me') opposing > the > > 'death penalty' is not meant for saving one person but > for > > saving every person who might be awarded the death > sentence > > whether that person has killed 1 or a hundred or > thousands. > > > > 4. I tried to explain to you in the last mail why the > delay > > in execution of Afzal Guru is not 'minority > appeasement' but > > I seem to have been unsuccessful. > > > > There are reportedly 29 'mercy petitions' like > that > > of Afzal Guru lying pending with the President of > India. > > > > Afzal Guru was sentenced to death in 2004. > > > > Let me now give you some names of those who were > > awarded the death sentence before Afzal Guru and you > might > > realise that there is no 'minority appeasement' in > play. > > > > Look at these names: Murugan; G. > Perarivalan; Chinna > > Shanthan; Davinder Singh > > Bhullar ; Simon; Gnanprakasham; Meesekar > > Madaiah; Bilvendran; Gurdev Singh; Satnam > Singh; Para > > Singh; Sarabjit Singh; Praveen Kumar > > > > There is a rule followed that each one will await > its > > turn for being accepted or being rejected. THIS IS > > IMPORTANT. You have said that "Legal experts clearly > says > > there is no such law to go with queue for death > sentence > > matter." Will you please tell me which "Legal Experts" > But, > > isnt it logical that it should be turn by turn. > > > > Your main argument for fast-tracking the > execution of > > Afzal Guru is "One must separate terrorists conviction > with > > other conviction. Due to our this terror soft > approach, we > > are unable to fight terror to the extent what actually > we > > should do." > > > > You are conveying that putting Afzal Guru to > death > > speedily will deter other terrorists from attacking > India. > > > > In this I disagree with you and let me tell you > why. > > Bipin there is no evidence at all from any part of the > World > > that executing the 'death sentence' for any kind of a > crime > > leads to decrease in the incidence of that particular > crime. > > If you have any such evidence please do share it. You > can > > take the examples of the very countries you mentioned > USA, > > China, Pakistan and you can add to that all other > countries > > where the 'death penalty' is awarded and executed. > > > > As I said earlier, you can have the final say. > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > --- On Sat, 5/8/10, Bipin Trivedi > > > wrote: > > > > > > From: Bipin Trivedi > > > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > To: "'Kshmendra Kaul'" > > > Cc: "sarai-list" > > > Date: Saturday, May 8, 2010, 10:54 AM > > > > > > Dear Kshemendra, > > > > I have not at all missed the central point. Politician > go > > out of law for > > their selfish motto, but not for terror conviction. > What's > > the reason? Can > > you tell? Just because of political mileage, nothing > else. > > It's real problem > > that people like you did not understand this. Because > they > > were punished as > > terrorists activity and so the special case and not > because > > of their > > religion. One must separate terrorists conviction > with > > other conviction. Due > > to our this terror soft approach, we are unable to > fight > > terror to the > > extent what actually we should do. > > > > I have never mentioned that Afsalguru should be given > > priority for > > punishment because he belongs to minority, but due to > > terrorist act > > conviction only. Whoever involved in this and even in > the > > future any > > religion should be treated as same for terror > conviction. > > > > Afsalguru case is clear minor appeasement for not > executing > > his conviction > > and goes wrong message to terror groups and encourage > them > > further. Legal > > experts clearly says there is no such law to go with > queue > > for death > > sentence matter. Earlier such execution of death > sentence > > carried out, out > > of turn in the couple of occasions. > > > > Constitution of India (SC) has already convicted > death > > sentence in 2006, > > this cabinet for strange reason delaying it. So, this > is > > clear minor > > appeasement case Dear Kshemendra. This is where > congress > > lack will to fight > > terrorism. > > > > You personally oppose death sentence is altogether > > different issue. Our > > constitution permits death sentence, so you argument > at > > present is > > irrelevant of blood thirsty animal from Indian point > of > > view. It is > > unfortunate that people like you oppose death sentence > for > > the people who is > > blood thirsty for hundreds or thousands of people. You > want > > to save the life > > of one person who engaged in blood bath and take lives > of > > 100/1000 of > > people!!! > > > > India is barbaric in your view by adopting death > sentence > > than those nation > > like US, China, Pakistan and many more are also > barbaric > > for adopting this > > law. This is about 70% of world population is > barbaric > > according to you! > > > > Thanks > > Bipin > > > > > > > > From: Kshmendra Kaul [mailto:kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com ] > > > > Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 4:10 PM > > To: Bipin Trivedi > > Cc: sarai-list > > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > > > Dear Bipin > > > > You have missed the central point. The Constitution > of > > India gives that > > right to Ajmal Kasab and also to Afzal Guru. > > > > FYI Afzal Guru is not the only one who's appeal for > waiver > > of 'death > > penalty' is pending with the President. And most of > the > > others are Hindus. > > So stop obsessing about 'appeasement of minorities' in > this > > case. > > > > The Constitution of India is not so petty that it will > be > > changed just > > because you or someone else or even if millions of > Indians > > want to deny > > Kasab the tiered rights to Courts and appeal to > President. > > > > Bipin, one should not accuse others of behaving > > like blood-thirsty animals > > and then become a blood-thirsty animal > himself/herself. > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > --- On Fri, 5/7/10, Bipin Trivedi > > > wrote: > > > > From: Bipin Trivedi > > > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > To: "'Kshmendra Kaul'" > > > Cc: "sarai-list" > > > Date: Friday, May 7, 2010, 3:37 PM > > Dear Kshemendra, > > > > Parliament can and has right to make such decision if > show > > will. But, > > congress cannot show such will, who prolonged even > > Afsalguru conviction > > keeping pending for so long for their vote bank > politics. > > Comparison with > > Shah Bano for the reason of vote bank politics only > to > > appealing minor. > > Reverting shah Bano verdict is classic example of > minor > > appeasement and the > > same case with Afsalguru and I am fear for Kasav also > same > > thing might > > happen. > > > > Thanks > > Bipin > > > > > > > > > > From: Kshmendra Kaul [mailto:kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com ] > > > > Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 1:35 PM > > To: sarai-list; Bipin Trivedi > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > > > Dear Bipin > > > > A. I am against the death penalty for anyone for any > crime > > whatsoever. I > > believe the 'death penalty' is awarded in barbaric > > societies, and yes, India > > is still barbaric in many ways. > > > > B. You might disagree on the above. That does not > change > > the opportunity > > allowed in India for anyone convicted in a crime in a > Lower > > Court to take > > the matter to a Higher Cour. > > > > Since it is a question of a 'death penalty', > Kasab > > has the right to > > have his case heard by the Higher Courts right upto > the > > Supreme Court. After > > that he has the right to appeal to the President for > waiver > > of the 'death > > penalty'. The Constitution of India provides that > right. > > You cannot compare > > Civil Law of the Shah Bano case witha 'death penalty' > being > > awarded. > > > > No one can take that right away from Kasab. > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > --- On Thu, 5/6/10, Bipin Trivedi > > > wrote: > > > > From: Bipin Trivedi > > > Subject: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > To: "sarai-list" > > > Date: Thursday, May 6, 2010, 3:33 PM > > AS EXPECTED, KASAV RIGHTLY GOT DEATH SENTENCE. > > > > Though terrorist's Kasav case was crystal clear, but > still > > we have gone for > > about 17 months fair trial and proved that how > transparent > > our judicial > > system is unlike Pakistan. But, after this trial and > > judgment, he should not > > allow to appeal in the higher court and should be > hanged in > > public > > immediately without further judicial procedure. if > Indira > > Gandhi (ex PM) > > deny to obey court verdict and neglect law and Shah > Banu > > case was revert out > > of law by parliament than why cannot this? India > should > > show the world that > > country cannot compromise in integrity and take hard > action > > if required like > > open public death sentence. > > > > Thanks > > Bipin > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > > city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with subscribe > > in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > > city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com Thu May 13 19:11:14 2010 From: rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com (Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi) Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 19:11:14 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT In-Reply-To: <929820.55411.qm@web112108.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <929820.55411.qm@web112108.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi, Malik jee, now that your posts have been reflecting the knowledge of laws, and also that you acknowledge the political clout in judiciary and its process, it may not be out of place to make a mention of the fact that Sri. Sushil Kumar Shindhe being governor of Andhra, pardoned a convict , penalised with life setence for being a murder convict,G Venkata reddy, an office bearer of Congress, then left the post of Governor to take up ministry at Centre,! Recent example being that of parol to manu sharma where in CM of delhi even exceeded the brief for this convict for parole,as he is son of Congress leader and grand son of Shankar dayal Sharma, who also happens to be past veteran of oldest party.!Citizens have seen how the judicial process can be twisted by the tail where ruling powerful play the roles with premier investigation agency, CBI, where one judge commented that we can adjudicate on the evidence produced but we can not hunt evidence for the state,so prosectution is as good as it produces the evidence given by the investigators to it in the process of trial, as seen the evidence was fudged in many cases of murder accused, but for the hue and cry for justice in such high profile cases many accused are still walking free, one being tht of nithari killers boss, who happens to be in good books with rulers.!Only his servant who brought the children is to hang and not the person who made him do all that.! I will not be surprised if, for political compulsions Shibu Soren is pardoned provided he keeps away from opponents of Congress.!And that precisely is the reason that he votes with Congress while his son talks of being with NDA.? Regards, rajen. On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 12:32 PM, A.K. Malik wrote: > Hi Jhuma, > I had sent the results of the NDTV survey for Mr Kaul who is not > in favour of the death penalty.I was just to show him that majority of the > people were in favour of the death penalty and I am one of those.I happen to > be a law graduate and know the criminal law sufficiently well.The surveys > are meant to indicate the public opinion and that too for the internet savvy > people who prefer to vote for the surveys on line.If you are only to go by > the people's opinion I have heard some saying "is ke oopper dahi-chini ka > lep laga kar kutte chhor dene chahiye, phansi ki zaroorat nahin hai." > By the way you don't need the entire nation to decide on whether there > should be Capital punishment or not? Only a majority of our parliamentarians > can amend the IPC. > When the Governance wish to circumvent anything they can also find ways to > do it as is being done in Afzal Guru's case where the Delhi Govt has sat on > the clemency file for over 4 years, no one can do anything.So if the Govt > wishes, it can give life even to those covicted to be hanged.Another case > now a days coming up is that of Koli of NOIDA who has been convicted to be > hanged for raping and killing a minor girl.And there are 16 or so such cases > against him. You can allow him to live on, I would think he needs to be > hanged ASAP though with due process of law. > You live with your opinion and I live with mine.The law would remain what > it is in the Statutes unless changed. > Warm regards, > > (A.K.MALIK) > > > --- On Thu, 5/13/10, Jhuma Sen wrote: > > > From: Jhuma Sen > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > To: "A.K. Malik" > > Date: Thursday, May 13, 2010, 12:08 AM > > Dear Mr Malik, > > > > Since when did public opinion/sentiment structure the path > > criminal > > justice should take? This is with reference to your NDTV > > Survey. If > > your NDTV survey was to be the be all and end all of > > judicial and > > legal reasoning, then my exasperation alas. Also, it seems > > you > > advocate that 4335 votes, which probably come from a > > fraction of the > > urban middle class, form the larger 'opinion' of the > > country. What was > > our population again? Or are you implying that > > 1,139,964,932- 4335 > > Indians (do the calculation yourself) are not in a position > > to form an > > opinion in an issue as important as capital punishment for > > Ajmal > > Kasab. > > > > I think there is a need for those who advocate death > > penalty for Kasab > > to understand that a life imprisonment would have been a > > more > > exemplary punishment. How can death ever be a penalty, I > > wonder? > > > > Best > > > > Jhuma Sen > > > > On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 11:49 PM, A.K. Malik > > wrote: > > > > > > Dear Kaul Sahib, > > > Thanks for the info. Just for > > your information one of the items in an NDTV Survey on UPA > > governance is a question: > > > "Do you think 26/11 terrorist Kasab should have got > > death sentence or life imprisonment? > > > It indicates > > > > > > Death sentence 90.47% > > > Life imprisonment 8.05% > > > Don't know 1.48% > > > Total Votes: 4335 > > > You would kindly see that most people are in favour of > > death penalty. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > (A.K.MALIK) > > > > > > --- On Wed, 5/12/10, Kshmendra Kaul > > wrote: > > > > > > > From: Kshmendra Kaul > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > > > To: "A.K. Malik" > > > > Cc: "Sarai List" > > > > Date: Wednesday, May 12, 2010, 6:21 PM > > > > Dear AKM > > > > > > > > Yes you are right. Somewhat right. > > > > > > > > It was Home Secretary GK PIllai who said that > > Kasab > > > > could be hanged within 8 months. But he also > > > > indicated that period conditional to "If he > > does > > > > not file any appeal anywhere". > > > > > > > > Subsequently Law Minister Veerappa Moily did say > > that > > > > even if Kasab filed an appeal the case could be > > and should > > > > be fast-tracked and that Kasab will be hanged > > within a > > > > year. > > > > > > > > I was not wrong about the queue system for > > > > clemency-appeals from Death Row. I read about > > that rule > > > > being followed. (just one example here : > http://ibnlive.in.com/news/afzal-sushil-santosh-waiting-on-death-row/114683-3.html?from=trhs > ) > > > > > > > > > > > > Obviously it is not so and even if there is some > > > > unwritten rule (as there seems to have been) then > > it > > > > can be circumvented at the choice of the > > Executive as can be > > > > seen in the remarks of Abhishek Singhvi in this > > report : > http://ibnlive.in.com/news/queue-not-caste-in-stone-in-kasabs-case-cong/114748-37-64.html?from=trhs > > > > > > > > If the queue systen can be broken for > > fast-tracking > > > > for one set of reasons (in Kasab's case) then it > > can > > > > also be broken to delay for another set of > > reasons (in > > > > Afzal Guru's case). > > > > > > > > Since, as you know, I am against the > > Death-Penalty, > > > > therefore I have no interest in exploring either > > set of > > > > reasons for either or any other case. > > > > > > > > In an earlier mail I had mentioned 29 people > > being on > > > > the Death Row with Right of Appeal to President > > for Clemecy. > > > > I was wrong about that too. It would be more than > > 50. In > > > > August 2008 itself there were 50 as per response > > to a RTI > > > > petition. Details here: > > > > > http://www.rtiindia.org/forum/6488-50-clemency-pleas-pending-before-prez.html > > > > > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Wed, 5/12/10, A.K. Malik > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > From: A.K. Malik > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > > > To: "Kshmendra Kaul" > > > > > > > > Cc: "Sarai List" > > > > Date: Wednesday, May 12, 2010, 5:16 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Mr Kaul, > > > > You > > > > must have seen Times of India newsitem wherein Mr > > Moilly, > > > > the Law Minister says that Kasab will be hanged > > in 8 months > > > > time even if he files appeal.What happened to the > > Queue > > > > system where mercy petitions are waiting? Is he > > going to > > > > break the Q for poor Kasab and leave Afzal > > living? Something > > > > is definitely fishy about Afzal being kept alive > > and not the > > > > Q system you had relied upon. > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > (A.K.MALIK) > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 5/9/10, A.K. Malik > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > From: A.K. Malik > > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > > > > To: "Kshmendra Kaul" > > > > > Cc: "Sarai List" > > > > > Date: Sunday, May 9, 2010, 11:54 AM > > > > > Dear Mr Kaul, > > > > > I am > > > > sorry > > > > > to interrupt the thread between you and Mr > > Bipin, but > > > > after > > > > > reading your post couldn't resist writing > > back. > > > > > 1&2.There is no harm in having an > > opinion/point of > > > > view > > > > > different than what is the law in force.So > > long as it > > > > is not > > > > > changed,the punishment would be based on the > > Supreme > > > > Court > > > > > verdict that death penalty should be given > > only in > > > > rarest of > > > > > rare cases and this is what has been done by > > the Judge > > > > in > > > > > the Kasab case.To give the convicted > > > > person a safeguard > > > > > against a wrong conviction of death > > penalty,it is > > > > mandatory > > > > > for the sentence to be ratified in the next > > higher > > > > court, in > > > > > this case Bombay High Court. > > > > > If HC doesn't consider it as rearest of the > > rare > > > > case then > > > > > it is a different matter. > > > > > 3.Ask the relatives of the persons killed by > > the > > > > barbaric > > > > > act of the terrorist who want the fellow to > > be hanged > > > > in > > > > > public/shot dead without trial even but the > > law of the > > > > land > > > > > has prevailed and must prevail. > > > > > 4. Everyone on the road knows why Afzal Guru > > is not > > > > being > > > > > hanged.Anything rest is all bullshit.You > > have written > > > > > that"There is a rule followed that each one > > will > > > > await its > > > > > turn for being accepted or being rejected. > > THIS IS > > > > > IMPORTANT.",just give a refernce to this > > > > rule so that we > > > > > also become aware.Even a clerk in Govt > > Office knows > > > > to > > > > > prioritise which file is to be > > > > sent early and which later > > > > > but the Delhi Govt can't make up its mind to > > send > > > > comments > > > > > on Afzal's petition in 5 years.Even if such > > a rule > > > > exists > > > > > who stops the Govt from changing it by > > executive > > > > > directions-because no such rule exists at > > all. I say > > > > almost > > > > > all such "mercy petitions" have some or the > > > > other contacts > > > > > in political and bureaucracy and are > > intentionally > > > > being > > > > > dragged. So long live Afzal because the > > earlier > > > > petitions > > > > > will never be decided in his life time.May > > be if Kasab > > > > also > > > > > gets the same stature as Afzal, he will also > > live on. > > > > > Yes, we belong to Gandhiji's land so we > > don't > > > > do anything > > > > > to people who come and kill us and would > > rather say > > > > come > > > > > kill us and we will give you immunity from > > being > > > > hanged and > > > > > even punished and spend crores of rupees for > > your > > > > safety. > > > > > Long live Indian Politics! > > > > > With regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (A.K.MALIK) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 5/8/10, Kshmendra Kaul > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > From: Kshmendra Kaul > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV > > VERDICT > > > > > > To: "Bipin Trivedi" > > > > > > Cc: "sarai-list" > > > > > > Date: Saturday, May 8, 2010, 7:37 PM > > > > > > Dear Bipin > > > > > > > > > > > > We are > > > > talking in circles now. I will try to make > > this > > > > > my > > > > > > last post on this thread and you are > > most welcome > > > > to > > > > > have > > > > > > the final say. > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. To answer the easier question. Yes, > > in my > > > > opinion, > > > > > the > > > > > > countries including India, USA, China, > > Pakistan > > > > and > > > > > > whosoever else, even if they total to > > 99% of the > > > > > World > > > > > > Population are BARBARIC in having the > > 'death > > > > penalty' > > > > > as > > > > > > punishment for any crime whatsoever. > > > > > > > > > > > > I hope you understand that I > > > > am not calling > > > > > these > > > > > > countries 'barbaric' in their > > sum-total, > > > > but > > > > > 'barbaric' with > > > > > > regards to death-penalty. > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. Yes our (Indian) Constitution > > permits the > > > > 'death > > > > > > penalty' and from my point of view that > > needs > > > > to be > > > > > changed. > > > > > > And, because I want > > > > to see that changed therefore my > > > > > > argument is not irrelevant but it is a > > mirror > > > > for > > > > > showing > > > > > > the barbarism of death-penalty existing > > in the > > > > > Constitution > > > > > > and the blood-lust of those who are > > scream for > > > > anyone > > > > > at > > > > > > all to be done to death for any crime > > > > whatsoever. > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. My (and presumably other 'people > > like > > > > me') opposing > > > > > the > > > > > > 'death penalty' is not meant for > > saving > > > > one person but > > > > > for > > > > > > saving every person who might be > > awarded the > > > > death > > > > > sentence > > > > > > whether that person has killed 1 or a > > hundred or > > > > > thousands. > > > > > > > > > > > > 4. I tried to explain to you in the > > last mail why > > > > the > > > > > delay > > > > > > in execution of Afzal Guru is not > > 'minority > > > > > appeasement' but > > > > > > I seem to have been unsuccessful. > > > > > > > > > > > > There > > > > are reportedly 29 'mercy petitions' like > > > > > that > > > > > > of Afzal Guru lying pending with the > > President > > > > of > > > > > India. > > > > > > > > > > > > Afzal Guru was sentenced to > > > > death in 2004. > > > > > > > > > > > > Let me now give you some names of > > > > those who were > > > > > > awarded the death sentence before Afzal > > Guru and > > > > you > > > > > might > > > > > > realise that there is no 'minority > > > > appeasement' in > > > > > play. > > > > > > > > > > > > Look at these names: Murugan; G. > > > > > Perarivalan; Chinna > > > > > > Shanthan; Davinder Singh > > > > > > > > > > Bhullar ; Simon; Gnanprakasham; Meesekar > > > > > > Madaiah; Bilvendran; Gurdev > > > > Singh; Satnam > > > > > Singh; Para > > > > > > Singh; Sarabjit Singh; Praveen Kumar > > > > > > > > > > > > There is a rule followed that > > each > > > > one will await > > > > > > > > > its > > > > > > turn for being accepted or being > > rejected. THIS > > > > IS > > > > > > IMPORTANT. You have said that "Legal > > > > experts clearly > > > > > says > > > > > > there is no such law to go with queue > > for death > > > > > sentence > > > > > > matter." Will you please tell me which > > > > "Legal Experts" > > > > > But, > > > > > > isnt it logical that it should be turn > > by > > > > turn. > > > > > > > > > > > > Your main argument > > > > for fast-tracking the > > > > > execution of > > > > > > Afzal Guru is "One must separate > > terrorists > > > > conviction > > > > > with > > > > > > other conviction. Due to our this > > terror soft > > > > > approach, we > > > > > > are unable to fight terror to the > > extent what > > > > actually > > > > > we > > > > > > should do." > > > > > > > > > > > > You are conveying that putting > > Afzal > > > > Guru to > > > > > death > > > > > > speedily will deter other terrorists > > from > > > > attacking > > > > > India. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In this I disagree with you and > > let > > > > me tell you > > > > > why. > > > > > > Bipin there is no evidence at all from > > any part > > > > of the > > > > > World > > > > > > that executing the 'death sentence' > > for > > > > any kind of a > > > > > crime > > > > > > leads to decrease in the incidence of > > that > > > > particular > > > > > crime. > > > > > > If you have any such evidence please do > > share it. > > > > You > > > > > can > > > > > > take the examples of the very countries > > you > > > > mentioned > > > > > USA, > > > > > > China, Pakistan and you can add to that > > all > > > > other > > > > > countries > > > > > > where the 'death penalty' is awarded > > and > > > > executed. > > > > > > > > > > > > As I said earlier, you can have the > > final say. > > > > > > > > > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 5/8/10, Bipin Trivedi > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Bipin Trivedi > > > > > > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] KASAV > > VERDICT > > > > > > To: "'Kshmendra Kaul'" > > > > > > Cc: "sarai-list" > > > > > > Date: Saturday, May 8, 2010, 10:54 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Kshemendra, > > > > > > > > > > > > I have not at all missed the central > > point. > > > > Politician > > > > > go > > > > > > out of law for > > > > > > their selfish > > > > motto, but not for terror conviction. > > > > > What's > > > > > > the reason? Can > > > > > > you tell? Just because of political > > mileage, > > > > nothing > > > > > else. > > > > > > It's real problem > > > > > > that people like you did not understand > > this. > > > > Because > > > > > they > > > > > > were punished as > > > > > > terrorists activity and so the special > > case and > > > > not > > > > > because > > > > > > of their > > > > > > religion. One must separate terrorists > > > > conviction > > > > > with > > > > > > other conviction. Due > > > > > > to our this terror soft approach, we > > are unable > > > > to > > > > > fight > > > > > > terror to the > > > > > > extent what actually we should do. > > > > > > > > > > > > I have never mentioned that Afsalguru > > should be > > > > given > > > > > > priority for > > > > > > punishment because he belongs to > > minority, but > > > > due to > > > > > > terrorist act > > > > > > conviction only. Whoever involved in > > this and > > > > even in > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > future any > > > > > > religion should be treated as same for > > terror > > > > > conviction. > > > > > > > > > > > > Afsalguru case is clear minor > > appeasement for > > > > not > > > > > executing > > > > > > his conviction > > > > > > and goes wrong message to terror groups > > and > > > > encourage > > > > > them > > > > > > further. Legal > > > > > > experts clearly says there is no such > > law to go > > > > with > > > > > queue > > > > > > for death > > > > > > sentence matter. Earlier such execution > > of death > > > > > sentence > > > > > > carried out, out > > > > > > of turn in the couple of occasions. > > > > > > > > > > > > Constitution of India (SC) has already > > convicted > > > > > death > > > > > > sentence in 2006, > > > > > > this cabinet for strange reason > > delaying it. So, > > > > this > > > > > is > > > > > > clear minor > > > > > > appeasement case Dear Kshemendra. This > > is where > > > > > congress > > > > > > lack will to fight > > > > > > terrorism. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You personally oppose death sentence > > is > > > > altogether > > > > > > different issue. Our > > > > > > constitution permits death sentence, so > > you > > > > argument > > > > > at > > > > > > present is > > > > > > irrelevant of blood thirsty animal from > > Indian > > > > point > > > > > of > > > > > > view. It is > > > > > > unfortunate that people like you oppose > > death > > > > sentence > > > > > for > > > > > > the people who is > > > > > > blood thirsty for hundreds or thousands > > of > > > > people. You > > > > > want > > > > > > to save the life > > > > > > of one person who engaged in blood bath > > and take > > > > lives > > > > > of > > > > > > 100/1000 of > > > > > > people!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > India is barbaric in your view by > > adopting death > > > > > sentence > > > > > > than those nation > > > > > > like US, China, Pakistan and many more > > are also > > > > > barbaric > > > > > > for adopting this > > > > > > law. This is about 70% of world > > population is > > > > > > > > > barbaric > > > > > > according to you! > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > Bipin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Kshmendra Kaul [mailto:kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com] > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 4:10 PM > > > > > > To: Bipin Trivedi > > > > > > Cc: sarai-list > > > > > > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] KASAV > > VERDICT > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Bipin > > > > > > > > > > > > You have missed the central point. The > > > > Constitution > > > > > of > > > > > > India gives that > > > > > > right to Ajmal Kasab and also to Afzal > > Guru. > > > > > > > > > > > > FYI Afzal Guru is not the only one > > who's > > > > appeal for > > > > > waiver > > > > > > of 'death > > > > > > penalty' is pending with the President. > > And > > > > most of > > > > > the > > > > > > others are Hindus. > > > > > > > > > > So stop obsessing about 'appeasement of > > > > minorities' in > > > > > this > > > > > > case. > > > > > > > > > > > > The Constitution of India is not so > > petty that it > > > > will > > > > > be > > > > > > changed just > > > > > > because you or someone else or even if > > millions > > > > of > > > > > Indians > > > > > > want to deny > > > > > > Kasab the tiered rights to Courts and > > appeal to > > > > > President. > > > > > > > > > > > > Bipin, one should not accuse others of > > behaving > > > > > > like blood-thirsty animals > > > > > > and then become a blood-thirsty animal > > > > > himself/herself. > > > > > > > > > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 5/7/10, Bipin Trivedi > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Bipin Trivedi > > > > > > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] KASAV > > VERDICT > > > > > > To: "'Kshmendra Kaul'" > > > > > > Cc: "sarai-list" > > > > > > Date: Friday, May 7, 2010, 3:37 PM > > > > > > Dear Kshemendra, > > > > > > > > > > > > Parliament can and has right to make > > such > > > > decision if > > > > > show > > > > > > will. But, > > > > > > congress cannot show such will, who > > prolonged > > > > even > > > > > > Afsalguru conviction > > > > > > keeping pending for so long for their > > vote bank > > > > > politics. > > > > > > Comparison > > > > with > > > > > > Shah Bano for the reason of vote bank > > politics > > > > only > > > > > to > > > > > > appealing minor. > > > > > > Reverting shah Bano verdict is classic > > example > > > > of > > > > > minor > > > > > > appeasement and the > > > > > > same case with Afsalguru and I am fear > > for Kasav > > > > also > > > > > same > > > > > > thing might > > > > > > happen. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > Bipin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Kshmendra Kaul [mailto:kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com] > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 1:35 PM > > > > > > To: sarai-list; Bipin Trivedi > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] KASAV > > VERDICT > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Bipin > > > > > > > > > > > > A. I am against the death penalty for > > anyone for > > > > any > > > > > crime > > > > > > whatsoever. I > > > > > > believe the 'death penalty' is > > > > awarded in barbaric > > > > > > societies, and yes, India > > > > > > is still barbaric in many ways. > > > > > > > > > > > > B. You might disagree on the above. > > That does > > > > not > > > > > change > > > > > > the opportunity > > > > > > allowed in India for anyone convicted > > in a crime > > > > in a > > > > > Lower > > > > > > Court to take > > > > > > the matter to a Higher Cour. > > > > > > > > > > > > Since it is a question > > > > of a 'death penalty', > > > > > Kasab > > > > > > has the right to > > > > > > have his case heard by the Higher > > Courts right > > > > upto > > > > > the > > > > > > Supreme Court. After > > > > > > that he has the right to appeal to the > > President > > > > for > > > > > waiver > > > > > > of the 'death > > > > > > penalty'. The Constitution of India > > provides > > > > that > > > > > right. > > > > > > You cannot compare > > > > > > > > > > Civil Law of the Shah Bano case witha > > 'death > > > > penalty' > > > > > being > > > > > > awarded. > > > > > > > > > > > > No one can take that > > > > right away from Kasab. > > > > > > > > > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Thu, 5/6/10, Bipin Trivedi > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Bipin Trivedi > > > > > > Subject: [Reader-list] KASAV VERDICT > > > > > > To: "sarai-list" > > > > > > Date: Thursday, May 6, 2010, 3:33 > > > > PM > > > > > > AS EXPECTED, KASAV RIGHTLY GOT DEATH > > SENTENCE. > > > > > > > > > > > > Though terrorist's Kasav case was > > crystal > > > > clear, but > > > > > still > > > > > > we have gone for > > > > > > about 17 months fair trial and proved > > that how > > > > > transparent > > > > > > our judicial > > > > > > system is unlike Pakistan. But, after > > this trial > > > > and > > > > > > judgment, he should not > > > > > > allow to appeal in the higher court and > > should > > > > be > > > > > hanged in > > > > > > public > > > > > > immediately without further judicial > > procedure. > > > > if > > > > > Indira > > > > > > Gandhi (ex PM) > > > > > > deny to obey court verdict and neglect > > law and > > > > Shah > > > > > Banu > > > > > > case was revert out > > > > > > of law by parliament than why cannot > > this? India > > > > > should > > > > > > show the world that > > > > > > country cannot compromise in integrity > > and take > > > > hard > > > > > action > > > > > > if required like > > > > > > open public > > > > death sentence. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > Bipin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on > > media and > > > > the > > > > > > city. > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > > > > with subscribe > > > > > > in the subject header. > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on > > media and > > > > the > > > > > > city. > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > > > > with subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > > city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > -- Rajen. From rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com Thu May 13 19:15:51 2010 From: rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com (Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi) Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 19:15:51 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Call for Articles: InfoChange Agenda issue on 'Access to Justice in India' In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Oshik jee, good initiative indeed, where chief justice after retirement is sure to be posted as Chairman of human rights commission, retired buraeucrats sure to get posted in various commissions and panels, be it Company law Board, judicial reforms, police reforms etc, as long as these individuals are loyal to the party ruling and not to the civil society.! A supreme court judge in one of the hearing commented that civil servants after retirements are in Company law boards, he is forgetting that most of the judges after retirement are on the pay rol;ls of various commissions, report pending for years for submission.! regards, rajen. On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 4:27 PM, OISHIK SIRCAR wrote: > Hello: > > As guest-editor of a forthcoming issue of *InfoChange Agenda* themed > 'Access > to Justice in India', I am writing to invite contributions to the issue. > > *InfoChange Agenda *has been conceived as a quarterly dossier that informs > civil society on crucial issues of sustainable development and social > justice, diversity and pluralism issues that are being pushed into the > margins. It is designed to enable concerned citizens in India/ South Asia > to > marshal salient information, facts, figures, perspectives and reportage, so > that they can clarify their ideas and participate in drawing up their own > agenda for a more equitable and sustainable world. You can find more > information on *InfoChange Agenda* and access the previous issues at > www.infochangeindia.org > > The innovation of the marvel called ‘Public Interest Litigation’ (PIL) in > the 1980s revolutionized the idea of ‘access to justice’ in India. It > marked > a moment in India’s judicial history that recognized the ways in which > marginality adversely impacts on people’s ability to make use of the law to > safeguard their rights. In the last two decades, how has the idea of PILs > generally, and access to justice specifically undergone a transformation, > in > the face of an India that opened up to Liberalization, Privatization and > Globalization from 1991 onwards? Have we been able to build on the > innovation, or has it been abused/ subverted in the name of facilitating > the > poor and disadvantaged to more effectively engage with the law? Has the > liberalization of the economy broadened the gap between the marginalized > and > the law? This issue of *InfoChange Agenda* will attempt to provide a > background to the development of PILs and legal aid in India since the 1980 > and then trace the contours of its development post liberalization. It will > document the various strategies that human rights groups, lawyers and > people’s movements have employed to use this tool to address rights > concerns > across a whole gamut of issues from prisoner’s rights to the environment. > It > will also address the rise of bodies like Khap Panchayat’s as perverse > forms > of extra-constitutional adjudication mechanisms that have received both > societal and state sanction. Finally, the volume will address the question > of the futures of access to justice in India looking at innovations beyond > the PIL like fast-tract to virtual courts, arbitration, jan sunwais, lok > adalats, the RTI and the recent Gram Nyayalay Act. > > Indicative themes are as follows: > > 1. 1. *Public Interest or Private Interest? PILs today* > > 1. *Poverty and Access to Justice: Legal Aid in India* > 2. *Should “Terrorists” be defended?* > 3. *Marketing Justice: The Privatisation of Human Rights* > 4. *Access Denied: Law and Marginality* > 5. *Righting Wrongs: Access to Justice and RTI* > 6. *The Tragedy of Criminal Justice Reforms* > 7. *Whither Judicial Activism? The Crisis in the Courts* > 8. *NHRC: All Bark, No Bite?* > 9. *30 million and counting: How do we climb the mountain of backlogs? > Innovations in enhancing Access to Justice* > 10. *Death Penalty: Suffocating Access to Justice* > 11. *The Supreme Court’s ‘Conservative Turn’: Supporting the Market, > Disadvantaging People* > 12. *Tort Law: Is Compensation good enough remedy?* > 13. *Litigating the Environment* > 14. *Post-conflict Justice: Peace, without Rights?* > 15. *SMS Justice: The Use of New Media* > 16. *Good Governance: A panacea to inacess?* > 17. *Indigenous Justice: Primitive or Progressive?* > 18. *Strategy Talk: How to use access legislations like the NREGA or DV > Act?* > 19. *How to file a PIL: an ordinary person’s guide* > > The themes are not limited to these. You are welcome to write on anything > else that is connected with the broader theme of 'Access to Justice in > India'. > > Since *InfoChange Agenda* is not an academic journal, I request you to use > minimal footnoting and make the pieces journalistic or feature-like. Please > try and stick to a word limit of 2000-3000. The Centre for Communication > and > Development Studies (CCDS) that publishes the journal will be happy to pay > an honorarium of Rs. 2000 for selected contributions. > > Please note the following timeline -- > > *Abstract Submission Deadline: June 30, 2010 > Announcement of accepted abstracts: July 30, 2010 > Article Submission Deadline: October 30, 2010 > Tentative date for publication: February 2011.* > > Email your submissions to oishiksircar at gmail.com with 'Agenda: Access to > Justice' in the subject line. For any clarifications, please feel free to > write to me. > > Warmly, > > Oishik Sircar > > > > -- > OISHIK SIRCAR > > oishiksircar at gmail.com > oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Rajen. From rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com Thu May 13 19:24:43 2010 From: rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com (Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi) Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 19:24:43 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] "The Rise Of Hindutva Terrorism" In-Reply-To: <170858.57640.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <170858.57640.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: And Kaul ji, Diggy raja in Ajamgarh visiting the terrorist home of the killed person at Delhi, is also taking the same line, of "hindu' terror, but amusing fact is when muslims are accused , some of them even killed in encounters, probes of the courts clearing the air about " fake " or genuine of the encounter,still many ids here talk of these "innocents" about terror of azamgarh,your post is quite timely. ! while none are defending the pragya takurs and col. bhagawaths, the defense for the muslim names seems to be spontaneous.? regards, rajen. On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 2:20 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > May 11, 2010 > > "The Rise Of Hindutva Terrorism" > > Praveen Swami > > (The recent arrests in Rajasthan mark progress in resolving some of the > most opaque and contentious terrorist attacks India has seen — and also > focus attention on a little-understood threat) > > > Eight hundred years ago, the Sufi saint Khwaja Moinuddin Chisti described > what he called the highest form of worship: "to redress the misery of those > in distress, to fulfil the needs of the helpless and to feed the hungry." > > Back in October, 2007, bombs ripped through the courtyard of what is > without dispute South Asia’s most popular Muslim religious centre — the > shrine that commemorates Chishti’s life at Ajmer Sharif, in Rajasthan. For > months, Police believed the attacks had been carried out by Islamist groups, > who oppose the shrine’s syncretic message. On April 30, 2010, however, > Rajasthan Police investigators arrested the man they say purchased the > mobile phone subscriber-identification modules (SIM) used to trigger the > attack. Devendra Gupta, a long standing worker of the Hindu-nationalist > Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS), was held along with his political > associates Vishnu Prasad and Chandrashekhar Patidar. All three men are now > also thought to have participated in the bombing of the Mecca Masjid in > Hyderabad, Andhra Pradesh. Rasasthan Home Minister Shanti Kumar Dhariwal > said the men were backed by an "organisation which tries to incite violence > between Hindus > and Muslims", adding that authorities were "investigating the links of the > organisation with the RSS." > > The arrests in Rajasthan mark progress in resolving some of the most opaque > and contentious terrorist attacks India has seen in recent years — but have > also focussed attention on the little-understood threat of Hindu-nationalist > or Hindutva terrorism. > > Evidence that Hindutva groups were seeking to acquire terrorist > capabilities began to emerge late in 2002. In December that year, an > improvised explosive device was found at Bhopal’s railway station, evidently > intended to target Muslims arriving in the city to attend a Tablighi Jamaat > gathering. Exactly a year later, a second bomb was found in the Lamba Khera > area, on the outskirts of Bhopal, on the last day of a Talblighi Jamaat > meeting. Both devices were made with commercial nitroglycerine-based > explosive, packed inside a four-inch long section of grooved pipe — the kind > used, for example, in tube-wells. The explosive was linked to a detonator > controlled by both a quartz alarm clock and a mobile phone. Investigators > would, in coming years, become familiar with the device: it would be used, > with only minor modifications, at Mecca Masjid and at the Ajmer Sharif > Shrine. Police in Madhya Pradesh soon developed information linking the > attempted Bhopal > bombings to local Hindutva activists Ramnarayan Kalsangram and Sunil > Joshi. Both suspects were, Police sources said, questioned. No hard evidence > linking them to the attempted bombings, however, emerged. Nevertheless, > former Madhya Pradesh Chief Minister Digvijay Singh announced that he had > evidence of the involvement of members of the Bajrang Dal, an affiliate of > the RSS, in acts of terrorism. For reasons that are unclear, though, this > evidence was not used to prosecute members of the organisation or any other > suspects. Nor were Kalsangram and Joshi placed under sustained surveillance, > a failure — regrettably common in Indian policing — that was to cost many > lives in coming years. > > > From 2006, more evidence began to become available that Hindutva terrorist > groups were seeking to enhance their lethality. That summer, Bajrang Dal > activists Naresh Kondwar and Himanshu Panse were killed in a bomb-making > accident in Nanded, Maharashtra. Police later discovered that the two men > had been responsible for bombing a mosque in the Parbhani District in April > 2006. Bajrang Dal activists linked to the Nanded cell, the Police also > found, had bombed mosques at Purna and Jalna in April, 2003, injuring 18 > people. > > > Few in India’s intelligence services saw these activities as a serious > threat. In New Delhi, where two low-grade bombs went off at the historic > Jama Masjid at the same time, Police made almost no serious effort to > investigate the case. However, the Maharashtra Police — who had better > reason than most to rue the fact, after all, that the Indian jihadist > movement flowered because inadequate attention had been paid to a handful of > obscure Islamists staging parades in a Mumbai slum — made clear its > disquiet. In a 2006 interview to the Mumbai-based magazine Communalism > Combat, former Maharashtra anti-terrorism Police chief K.P. Raghuvanshi > noted that the Nanded cell’s operations could have "frightening > repercussions", adding further that "bombs were not being manufactured for a > puja [prayer ceremony]". > > > Raghuvanshi’s concern was likely driven by information that Hindutva groups > could gain access to more lethal explosives. In September 2006, the Police > seized a 195-kilogram cocktail of military grade explosives from an > Ahmednagar scrap dealer, Shankar Shelke. Shelke, investigators found, > retrieved the material — more than enough to execute all terror strikes > across India since 1993 — from a decommissioned Indian Army ordinance store > which had sold it as scrap. From Shelke’s telephone records, the > investigators established the existence of a huge underground market for > high-grade explosives — in the main industrial users who found legally > available ammonium nitrate-based slurry explosives a nuisance to store and > use. > > > In May, 2007, a high-intensity bomb went off under a granite slab in an > open-air area of the Mecca Masjid in Hyderabad, killing nine people and > injuring at least 50; another five people were shot dead when Police fired > on violent mobs who protested against the attack. Police then said the > attack was likely carried out by the Harkat ul-Jihad-e-Islami (HuJI); State > Home Minister K. Jana Reddy attributed it to "foreign elements". Police in > Hyderabad have, rightly, been criticised for jumping to conclusions. It is > worth noting, though, that — some media accounts notwithstanding — no > arrests were made in the case, which was handed over to the Central Bureau > of Investigations. More than a dozen Hyderabad Muslims were, indeed, held > after the 2008 bombings at Gokul Chaat and Lumbini Park, now believed to > have been carried out by a jihadist group, the Indian Mujahideen (IM). None > of the men, however, were charged with involvement in either the 2007 or > 2008 > attacks; they were, instead, accused, and eventually acquitted, on > unrelated charges of conspiring to execute acts of terror, based on their > alleged possession of fake identification and pseudonymously-acquired mobile > phones. Police in Hyderabad have, in the course of the Hindutva terrorism > allegation, frequently been accused of communal bias. While the force no > doubt suffers from prejudices endemic to Indian society as a whole, there is > no empirical basis to suggest communalism coloured its investigation of the > Mecca Masjid bombing. > > > Police in Rajasthan proved just as clueless when bombs went off just > outside the famous shrine at Ajmer, killing two people. However, some > critical pieces of evidence did emerge. The SIM cards for mobile phones used > to activate the bombs at both Mecca Masjid and Ajmer, it turned out were > among a set of seven purchased by the perpetrators from West Bengal and > Jharkhand in April 2007. The bomb maker had linked the phone’s speaker to a > detonator, and packed explosives inside grooved metal pipe — just as they > had in the earlier attempts in Bhopal. > > > In September, 2008, when bombs went off at Malegaon in Maharashtra and > Modasa in Gujarat, killing eight and injuring over eighty, Police in > Maharashtra were well-poised to develop the leads they had been gathering > since 2006. Within weeks, investigators had arrested several key figures in > a Pune-based Hindutva cell they believed had carried out the Malegaon > attacks — among them, Sadhvi Pragya Singh Thakur, a Madhya Pradesh-based > Hindu nun with deep links to the Hindutva movement, Jammu-based cleric > Sudhakar Dwivedi, and a serving Indian Army Lieutenant Colonel, Shrikant > Prasad Purohit, linked under the umbrella of Abhinav Bharat. > > > Founded in the summer of 2006 (on June 12), Abhinav Bharat had been set up > as an educational trust with Himani Savarkar — daughter of Gopal Godse, > brother of Mahatma Gandhi’s assassin — as its President. But, documents > filed by Maharashtra prosecutors in the Pune court where Malegaon suspects > are being tried, showed that members of the group were soon discussing > terrorist activity. In June 2007, Purohit allegedly suggested that the time > had come to target Muslims through terrorist attacks — a plea others in > Abhinav Bharat rejected. But, evidence gathered by the Police suggests, many > within the group were determined to press ahead. At a meeting in April 2008, > key suspects including Thakur Dwivedi, also known as Amritananda Dev Tirtha, > met Purohit to hammer out the Malegaon plot. Explosives were later procured > by Purohit, and handed over to Ram Narayan Kalsangram, in early August 2008. > > > Abhinav Bharat’s long-term aims, though, went far beyond targeting Muslims: > its members wanted to overthrow the Indian state and replace it with a > totalitarian, theocratic order. A ‘draft constitution’ spoke of a > single-party system, presided over by a leader who "shall be followed at all > levels without questioning the authority." It called for the creation of an > "academy of indoctrinization [sic]." The concluding comment was stark: > "People whose ideas are detrimental to Hindu Rashtra should be killed." > Purohit’s plans to bring about a Hindutva state were often fantastical — > bordering, even, on the pathological. He claimed, prosecutors say, to have > secured an appointment with Nepal’s former monarch, Gyanendra Bir Bikram > Shah Dev in 2006 and 2007, to press for his support for the planned Hindutva > revolution. Nepal, he went on, was willing to train Abhinav Bharat’s cadre, > and supply it with assault rifles. Israel’s Government, he said, had > agreed to grant members of the group military support and, if needed, > political asylum. No evidence has ever emerged that Purohit had, in fact, > succeeded in developing transnational patronage or linkages. > > > The son of a bank officer with no particular political leanings, Purohit > seems to have first encountered Hindutva politics in his late teens when he > attended a special coaching class for Short Service Commission > officer-aspirants at the Bhonsala Military School in Nashik. Founded in 1937 > by B.S. Moonje, the controversial school drew on fascist pedagogical > practices the Hindutva ideologue encountered on a visit to Europe. Moonje, > who had earlier served with the British Indian Army as a doctor during the > visit, had met with Italian dictator Benito Mussolini and studied fascist > institutions. > > > Purohit’s military career itself was undistinguished. In 2002, he > participated in 15 Maratha Light Infantry’s counter-terrorism operations in > Jammu and Kashmir, but won no special honours. Later, he was given an > administrative job linked to the raising of 41 Rashtriya Rifles, a dedicated > counter-terrorism formation that operates out of Kupwara, in northern > Kashmir. His tenure in Jammu and Kashmir ended in January, 2005, while > serving in the Awantipora-based 31-Counter Intelligence Unit of the Military > Intelligence Directorate, an assignment not considered among the most > prestigious. > > > Investigators suspect Purohit’s decision to set up Abhinav Bharat > germinated soon after he moved to Maharashtra in 2005. Purohit was assigned > charge of an Army Liaison Unit, a Military Intelligence cell responsible for > developing and maintaining links between the Army and local communities. The > job provided a perfect cover for developing contacts with his old school, > and the circle of Pune-region Hindutva activists who were connected to it. > School commandant Colonel S.S. Raikar, investigators say, played a key role > in putting Purohit in touch with the activists who went on to form Abhinav > Bharat. Raikar, who retired from the Indian Army as head of a Military > Intelligence detachment in Manipur, is not charged with criminal > wrong-doing. In the summer of 2006, though, Abhinav Bharat held the first of > what was to be a series of meetings in rooms provided by the Bhonsala > Military School. From the outset, it made no secret of its objectives. > Abhinav Bharat > drew its name from a terrorist group set up by Hindutva activists in 1904 > to fight colonial Britain. Himani Savarkar, grandniece of the Hindutva > movement’s founding patriarch Vinayak Damodar Savarkar and niece of Mahatma > Gandhi’s assassin Nathuram Godse, was appointed the organisation’s > President. > > > Purohit is alleged to have told Abhinav Bharat supporters that his military > background had equipped him, unlike the political leadership of existing > Hindutva organisations, to prepare for what he saw as an inevitable > Hindu-Muslim civilisational war. He would often invent stories of heroic > covert exploits against jihadi terrorists to impress his recruits. Full-time > cadres of the organisation were known by the honorific Chanakya, a reference > to the scholar-advisor who is reputed to have helped build the foundations > for the rule of the emperor Chandragupta Maurya. > > > Despite the formidable mass of evidence it gathered, the Maharashtra > investigation ran into a wall — a wall from which the recent arrests in > Rajasthan may have removed a few bricks. Thakur’s long-standing associate, > Dewas-based RSS organiser and Hindutva activist Sunil Joshi, was murdered on > December 31, 2008. His political associates claimed he was killed by > Islamists; Police, however, believe that his murder was driven both by > disputes over funds within the Abhinav Bharat network, and a romantic issue. > Police have also been unable to locate Gujarat-based Jatin Chatterjee, an > influential Hindu cleric who uses the clerical alias Swami Asimananad. > Chatterjee is a key figure in the controversial Vanvasi Kalyan Ashram, which > operates a Hindu-proselytisation programme targeting adivasis (tribals) in > southern Gujarat. Police sources say he is likely hiding out in Gujarat’s > Dangs area, but claim the State Government has failed to cooperate with > efforts > to locate the suspect. Ram Narayan Kalsangram, the third key fugitive, is > also thought to be hiding out in Gujarat. Lawyers for Thakur say she had > sold a motorcycle used in the Malegaon bombings to Joshi who, without her > knowledge, passed it on to Kalsangram. > > > What lessons ought India to be learning from the story of the Hindutva > terror network? Key among them is the urgent need to address the country’s > dysfunctional communal politics. Thakur and her Hindutva terror cell have > deep — and, for some, discomfiting — roots in history. Influenced by the > dramatic impact of terrorism in imperial Russia, the Hindu nationalist > leader, Bal Gangadhar Tilak, became increasingly drawn to violence as a tool > to achieve Indian independence. A year after the searing 1905 revolution, > which compelled Czar Alexander II to grant basic civil rights, Tilak > exhorted his followers: "The days of prayer have gone… Look to the examples > of Ireland, Japan and Russia and follow their methods." Tilak’s message > proved attractive to many young, upper caste Hindu neoconservatives — often > the products of western-style education who had found in their re-imagining > of Indian tradition a language with which to oppose British imperialism. > > > Figures like Vinayak Damodar Savarkar, who went on to lead the Hindu > Mahasabha, cast the struggle against Britain as a fight to defend the Hindu > faith. In one manifesto, the original Abhinav Bharat’s followers promised to > "shed upon the earth the life-blood of the enemies who destroy religion." > Later, the radical right journal Yugantar argued that the murder of > foreigners in India was "not a sin but a yagna [ritual > sacrifice]"—sentiments that would be entirely familiar to Osama bin-Laden’s > jihadi armies today. > > > Despite the arrests in Rajasthan, investigators probing Hindutva terror > groups still have much work to do. First, a number of mysteries remain to be > resolved—ranging from the New Delhi bombings, to the unresolved firebombing > of the New Delhi-Lahore Samjhauta Express. Maharashtra prosecutors say a > witness heard Purohit linking Joshi to the train’s firebombing. Purohit, the > witness claimed, made the claim after a December 29, 2007, phone call, when > he was informed of Joshi’s death. "After the phone call," a senior > Maharashtra Police officer disclosed, "our witness says Lieutenant-Colonel > Purohit credited Joshi with having executed the Samjhauta Express attack, > and hailed him as a martyr." In 2009, however, the United States Treasury > Department attributed the attack to top Lashkar-e-Toiba (LeT) operative Arif > Kasmani who, it said, was funded by Karachi-based ganglord Dawood Ibrahim > Kaksar. > > > The arrests over the past weeks notwithstanding, the threat remains real — > and must be snuffed out. Last year, in June, Hindu Janajagruti Samiti > operatives were held for the bombing of the Gadkari Rangayatan theatre in > Thane (Maharashtra), to protest the staging of a satire on the Mahabharata, > Amhi Pachpute. One of those arrested by the Police, Mangesh Nikam, was > facing trial on charges of bombing the home of a Ratnagiri family that had > converted to Christianity, and was out on bail. Members of the Goa-based > Sanatan Sanstha, affiliated to Hindu Janajagruti, were held for staging a > bombing in Panani. Earlier, Bajrang Dal-linked Rajiv Mishra and Bhupinder > Singh were killed in a bomb-making accident in Kanpur, Uttar Pradesh (UP). > UP Police sources said there was little to show that the group had links > with the terror cells in Maharashtra, but experience shows that even small > cells, left untouched, will acquire ever-greater levels of lethality. > > > (Praveen Swami is Associate Editor, The Hindu, New Delhi. Courtesy: the > South Asia Intelligence Review of the South Asia Terrorism Portal) > > http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?265400 > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- Rajen. From rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com Thu May 13 19:26:28 2010 From: rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com (Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi) Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 19:26:28 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] UID Project In-Reply-To: <662301.4897.qm@web112119.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <662301.4897.qm@web112119.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Yeah, for sure, this is the amount to be "granted" to media barons for the paid news.......................? rajen. On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 12:57 PM, A.K. Malik wrote: > HI Taha, > News item may be of use to you. Rs 50 crores is being sanctioned > for the UID project to educate people about the UID Project.This amount will > be spent on tv, news media etc to educate people about the project. > Regards, > > (A.K.MALIK) > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- Rajen. From rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com Thu May 13 19:34:41 2010 From: rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com (Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi) Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 19:34:41 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] UID CARD Doubts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Taha, if my post added fuzzyness, it was not intentional, for me, it is just a confirmation that I am who I am,my faith is in humanity, my belief is to be humane, and I believe faith begins when the knowledge ends., and sab ka mali ek hai.naam anek. regards, rajen On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 11:03 PM, Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com>wrote: > Dear Rajendra, > > I think your definition is not only rich but excellent in description > of social categories, it would have be great had you expounded a bit > more on it. Your post seems so full of delicate lines of fuzziness. I > thoroughly enjoyed reading it. Thank you so much for responding. > > May I suggest that we could perhaps make it superbly fuzzy if you try > to think deeper about all the social categories which you refer. > > Maybe why not explain each category with every subsequent post. So > could we look forward to distilled posts from you on the fuzziness of > identifying the following categories: > > 1. Me > 2. Nation > 3. Society > 4. Intellectuals > > > Warm regards > > Taha > -- Rajen. From shuddha at sarai.net Fri May 14 00:42:27 2010 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 00:42:27 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Ram Sene - Rent a Riot Message-ID: <249738C9-70DE-40A4-9918-A5ABDA186416@sarai.net> Dear all, here is some entertaining and enlightening news. Shri Ram Sene, (those who were so offended by women spending time in pubs not so long ago, because it offended Hindu values) are happy to arrange a riot in exchange for hard cash. Is High Holy Hindutva getting short of cash, or has it always been this way? A little pocket money on the side to keep the saffron flag flying? Please watch - http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/Video/97234/42/Videos/%27Ram+Sene +ready+to+riot+for+money%27.html This time, I think pink chaddis with fifty rupee notes tucked into them should be sent to them, after all, if they are prepared to riot for cash, we can always bribe them to stay at home. I think it used to be called a 'protection racket' before it was made respectable by Holy Hindutva. best Shuddha (Someone should bribe the Ram Sene and the likes of the Deobandi Maulana who issued the fatwa against Muslim women working to just get lost, preferably together) Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Fri May 14 14:58:49 2010 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 10:28:49 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] UID CARD Doubts Message-ID: Dear Bipin and Rajendera, Maybe I am as possessive about the fuzziness of a uinque ID as perhaps you are about it non existent benefits. But your mail was interesting. although it appeared fuzzy about identity. Let me explain why- You write- Let me answer that your identity can define by only one person, your MOTHER. - Are we to assume that all the orphans, who do not know who their mothers are, do not know who they are? If they do, then don't you think, that maybe having an identity and having a mother have little relationship maybe there are more aspects to a being which are at play here. Furthermore I am glad that you brought the whole issue of Bharatamata. By using Baharatamata I am sure you mean to use it as an allegorical reference to India. Is this only name we have for India? What about other names like Bharata, Hindustan, Hind, Tenjiku or Jambudvipa? Do you think these names, referring to a piece of land which lies on the north of the equator between 6°44' and 35°30' north latitude and 68°7' and 97°25' east longitude and is also sometime known as India, are any less important than Bharatamata? Or would have rather wanted India to be called as Nation number: 979BX. From the time immemorial to all times to come. Do does your heart crunch thinking that India is not called 979BX, that why did a person like Mr. Nilekani was not born 5000 years ago when they still making all those horses or bulls or whatever they were making at Harappa and why did he not quietly name the land 979BX and burned a clay tablet and hid it somewhere. Tell me do you miss a heartbeat. Isn't it superbly fuzzy to have all these names? All these names? Isn't it nice to have such a rich history, marked by all these name tags? Furthermore, I find the identity of Bharatamata fuzzy. The reason being, if Bharat is Mata only then what is Bharat varsha? See if you are a 'woman' you cannot be a 'realm' right. These are two different entities. So all Mata's of this world have a gender which is common to them. Right? But realms or varsha's have no gender. A realm, as we all know, is in fact a dominion of a Monarch. The monarch, I suppose was Bharat. And bharat was not even called Bharat till he was six. Was he not called by the name of Saravadamana? or would you have rather preferred it to be called 979BX. Tell me Bipin. And don't you remember the whole loss of identity episode the Bharat's Mata i.e. Shakuntala when to meet Bharat's Papa i.e Dushyanta. And did Dushyanta not use the act of failure to identify her as a ploy so that people accept her as his true wife? I mean I do not want to bore everyone with details of something which everybody knows. But now I am curious to know from you, that whether you would have preferred the name Bharatavarsha to a number, a unique number 979BX? And Rajendra thank you for adding layers of fuzziness to the question of identity- -I am who I am,my faith is in humanity, my belief is to be humane, and I believe faith begins when the knowledge ends., and sab ka mali ek hai.naam anek.- This is truly poetic. I think it represents the complexity of human beings isn't it. I would love to hear what Mr. Nikelani would say when he asks the question, Who are you and gets an answer like- ' I am who I am,my faith is in humanity, my belief is to be humane' Tell me, do you think that a dull twelve digit number truly represents who you are? Warm regards Taha From shashidhar at butterfliesindia.org Fri May 14 15:57:58 2010 From: shashidhar at butterfliesindia.org (Shashidhar) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 15:57:58 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] UID CARD Doubts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000801caf350$1f87fee0$5e97fca0$@butterfliesindia.org> This is the exact reason why such a task is best left in the hands of someone who deals with science and exacts... things get done, my god where have we been heading with all these discussions on identity, as far as I see it most are just reactions to some obscure comment. Agreed nations boundaries are just concepts, agreed identity is fuzzy so just change the name of the card... call it a social security card, call it a citizen's index or something.. I am sure that the card is absolutely powerless in taking away my identity or equally powerless in giving me identity as define by bro taha..... My bad -----Original Message----- From: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net [mailto:reader-list-bounces at sarai.net] On Behalf Of Taha Mehmood Sent: Friday, May 14, 2010 3:16 PM To: Bipin Trivedi Cc: sarai-list Subject: Re: [Reader-list] UID CARD Doubts Dear Bipin and Rajendera, Maybe I am as possessive about the fuzziness of a uinque ID as perhaps you are about it non existent benefits. But your mail was interesting. although it appeared fuzzy about identity. Let me explain why- You write- Let me answer that your identity can define by only one person, your MOTHER. - Are we to assume that all the orphans, who do not know who their mothers are, do not know who they are? If they do, then don't you think, that maybe having an identity and having a mother have little relationship maybe there are more aspects to a being which are at play here. Furthermore I am glad that you brought the whole issue of Bharatamata. By using Baharatamata I am sure you mean to use it as an allegorical reference to India. Is this only name we have for India? What about other names like Bharata, Hindustan, Hind, Tenjiku or Jambudvipa? Do you think these names, referring to a piece of land which lies on the north of the equator between 6°44' and 35°30' north latitude and 68°7' and 97°25' east longitude and is also sometime known as India, are any less important than Bharatamata? Or would have rather wanted India to be called as Nation number: 979BX. From the time immemorial to all times to come. Do does your heart crunch thinking that India is not called 979BX, that why did a person like Mr. Nilekani was not born 5000 years ago when they still making all those horses or bulls or whatever they were making at Harappa and why did he not quietly name the land 979BX and burned a clay tablet and hid it somewhere. Tell me do you miss a heartbeat. Isn't it superbly fuzzy to have all these names? All these names? Isn't it nice to have such a rich history, marked by all these name tags? Furthermore, I find the identity of Bharatamata fuzzy. The reason being, if Bharat is Mata only then what is Bharat varsha? See if you are a 'woman' you cannot be a 'realm' right. These are two different entities. So all Mata's of this world have a gender which is common to them. Right? But realms or varsha's have no gender. A realm, as we all know, is in fact a dominion of a Monarch. The monarch, I suppose was Bharat. And bharat was not even called Bharat till he was six. Was he not called by the name of Saravadamana? or would you have rather preferred it to be called 979BX. Tell me Bipin. And don't you remember the whole loss of identity episode the Bharat's Mata i.e. Shakuntala when to meet Bharat's Papa i.e Dushyanta. And did Dushyanta not use the act of failure to identify her as a ploy so that people accept her as his true wife? I mean I do not want to bore everyone with details of something which everybody knows. But now I am curious to know from you, that whether you would have preferred the name Bharatavarsha to a number, a unique number 979BX? And Rajendra thank you for adding layers of fuzziness to the question of identity- -I am who I am,my faith is in humanity, my belief is to be humane, and I believe faith begins when the knowledge ends., and sab ka mali ek hai.naam anek.- This is truly poetic. I think it represents the complexity of human beings isn't it. I would love to hear what Mr. Nikelani would say when he asks the question, Who are you and gets an answer like- ' I am who I am,my faith is in humanity, my belief is to be humane' Tell me, do you think that a dull twelve digit number truly represents who you are? Warm regards Taha _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From aliens at dataone.in Fri May 14 17:16:42 2010 From: aliens at dataone.in (Bipin Trivedi) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 17:16:42 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] UID CARD Doubts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001401caf35b$1fbddaf0$5f3990d0$@in> Dear Taha, It is very difficult to know you or your nature or way of thinking from our communication. My intention for BHARAT MATA is just to indicate that we are all Indian and that is our identity and nothing to do with Indian history, since over period of time, boundaries are bound to change and we must consider present situation. Global accepted language English also has word mother-land which is nothing but our birth land. Similarly, mother-tongue or birth language. When you are in school you will be call by your roll number and that’s your identity in school. Same thing in college. Same thing when you appear in university exams. Now in mobile age, our identity is more towards our mobile number! Don't you think it so? While handling large society or population, identity is bound to be some notations in the form of symbolic numbers. Do you have any alternative way? If not then you have to accept it. You ask Bharat or India to be called as 979BX. In our context India is one so no need for numbering, but for whole world India has to identify by some notation. One is name itself and other is ISD code - 0091. Here is also number. Astronomers discover stars. Since there are infinite stars in the universe, they prefer to give some notation along with names. Our database or computer technology is based on numbers so naturally notations or our identity will be in the form of 8/10/12 digit numbers suitable to our population. Do you have any alternative solution? If no then you have to accept it. Thanks Bipin -----Original Message----- From: Taha Mehmood [mailto:2tahamehmood at googlemail.com] Sent: Friday, May 14, 2010 2:59 PM To: Bipin Trivedi Cc: sarai-list Subject: Re: [Reader-list] UID CARD Doubts Dear Bipin and Rajendera, Maybe I am as possessive about the fuzziness of a uinque ID as perhaps you are about it non existent benefits. But your mail was interesting. although it appeared fuzzy about identity. Let me explain why- You write- Let me answer that your identity can define by only one person, your MOTHER. - Are we to assume that all the orphans, who do not know who their mothers are, do not know who they are? If they do, then don't you think, that maybe having an identity and having a mother have little relationship maybe there are more aspects to a being which are at play here. Furthermore I am glad that you brought the whole issue of Bharatamata. By using Baharatamata I am sure you mean to use it as an allegorical reference to India. Is this only name we have for India? What about other names like Bharata, Hindustan, Hind, Tenjiku or Jambudvipa? Do you think these names, referring to a piece of land which lies on the north of the equator between 6°44' and 35°30' north latitude and 68°7' and 97°25' east longitude and is also sometime known as India, are any less important than Bharatamata? Or would have rather wanted India to be called as Nation number: 979BX. From the time immemorial to all times to come. Do does your heart crunch thinking that India is not called 979BX, that why did a person like Mr. Nilekani was not born 5000 years ago when they still making all those horses or bulls or whatever they were making at Harappa and why did he not quietly name the land 979BX and burned a clay tablet and hid it somewhere. Tell me do you miss a heartbeat. Isn't it superbly fuzzy to have all these names? All these names? Isn't it nice to have such a rich history, marked by all these name tags? Furthermore, I find the identity of Bharatamata fuzzy. The reason being, if Bharat is Mata only then what is Bharat varsha? See if you are a 'woman' you cannot be a 'realm' right. These are two different entities. So all Mata's of this world have a gender which is common to them. Right? But realms or varsha's have no gender. A realm, as we all know, is in fact a dominion of a Monarch. The monarch, I suppose was Bharat. And bharat was not even called Bharat till he was six. Was he not called by the name of Saravadamana? or would you have rather preferred it to be called 979BX. Tell me Bipin. And don't you remember the whole loss of identity episode the Bharat's Mata i.e. Shakuntala when to meet Bharat's Papa i.e Dushyanta. And did Dushyanta not use the act of failure to identify her as a ploy so that people accept her as his true wife? I mean I do not want to bore everyone with details of something which everybody knows. But now I am curious to know from you, that whether you would have preferred the name Bharatavarsha to a number, a unique number 979BX? And Rajendra thank you for adding layers of fuzziness to the question of identity- -I am who I am,my faith is in humanity, my belief is to be humane, and I believe faith begins when the knowledge ends., and sab ka mali ek hai.naam anek.- This is truly poetic. I think it represents the complexity of human beings isn't it. I would love to hear what Mr. Nikelani would say when he asks the question, Who are you and gets an answer like- ' I am who I am,my faith is in humanity, my belief is to be humane' Tell me, do you think that a dull twelve digit number truly represents who you are? Warm regards Taha From rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com Fri May 14 20:14:15 2010 From: rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com (Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 20:14:15 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] UID CARD Doubts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Taha, well, not to add any fuzzyness, but explain what I meant, the proposed 12 digit "id" is a numerical or alpha numerical representing my presence in the society and nation, it does not add or subtract any features of mine,when I leave the physical presence, body gets cremated/ buried, the alpha numerical /numerical id also gets to no entity, so is the identity. And Taha, as humans, we are capable of using our body, mind and intellect at three planes, - material plane, intellectual plane and spiritual plane,and this id is atmost, only covers the material and intellectual (ofcourse I have doubts about this plane. : ) , but well, any other meaning of id in 12 digits is obnoxiuous and every dog has no collar, but those which have, do have a owner, that is id of a dog, that he /she belongs to the owner, may be nation wants to own its citizens for a change. i wonder. ! In the scheme of good governance if the system does not even know who it has to serve/ take care of with its rule of laws then it is better that we belong to the nation rather than a faith. For faith will not fill the aching belly of the food, hands have to work for it, intellect has to be used to get the skills to perform the tasks, those who do not have any of it, sell the bodies, hence the oldest profession, prostitution, those who have intellect, use it for good or bad, those who use it without conviction of any thing but material wealth are intellectual prostitutes. : ) that we see day in and out in tv channels selling news and creating news for paid wealth.! regards, rajen. On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 2:58 PM, Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com>wrote: > Dear Bipin and Rajendera, > > Maybe I am as possessive about the fuzziness of a uinque ID as perhaps > you are about it non existent benefits. > > But your mail was interesting. although it appeared fuzzy about > identity. Let me explain why- > > You write- > > Let me answer that your identity can > define by only one person, your MOTHER. > > - Are we to assume that all the orphans, who do not know who their > mothers are, do not know who they are? If they do, then don't you > think, that maybe having an identity and having a mother have little > relationship maybe there are more aspects to a being which are at play > here. > > Furthermore I am glad that you brought the whole issue of > Bharatamata. By using Baharatamata I am sure you mean to use it as an > allegorical reference to India. > > Is this only name we have for India? What about other names like > Bharata, Hindustan, Hind, Tenjiku or Jambudvipa? Do you think these > names, referring to a piece of land which lies on the north of the > equator between 6°44' and 35°30' north latitude and 68°7' and 97°25' > east longitude and is also sometime known as India, are any less > important than Bharatamata? Or would have rather wanted India to be > called as Nation number: 979BX. From the time immemorial to all times > to come. Do does your heart crunch thinking that India is not called > 979BX, that why did a person like Mr. Nilekani was not born 5000 years > ago when they still making all those horses or bulls or whatever they > were making at Harappa and why did he not quietly name the land 979BX > and burned a clay tablet and hid it somewhere. > > Tell me do you miss a heartbeat. > > Isn't it superbly fuzzy to have all these names? All these names? > Isn't it nice to have such a rich history, marked by all these name > tags? > > Furthermore, I find the identity of Bharatamata fuzzy. The reason > being, if Bharat is Mata only then what is Bharat varsha? > > See if you are a 'woman' you cannot be a 'realm' right. These are two > different entities. So all Mata's of this world have a gender which is > common to them. Right? > > But realms or varsha's have no gender. A realm, as we all know, is in > fact a dominion of a Monarch. The monarch, I suppose was Bharat. And > bharat was not even called Bharat till he was six. Was he not called > by the name of Saravadamana? or would you have rather preferred it to > be called 979BX. Tell me Bipin. > > And don't you remember the whole loss of identity episode the Bharat's > Mata i.e. Shakuntala when to meet Bharat's Papa i.e Dushyanta. And did > Dushyanta not use the act of failure to identify her as a ploy so that > people accept her as his true wife? I mean I do not want to bore > everyone with details of something which everybody knows. > > But now I am curious to know from you, that whether you would have > preferred the name Bharatavarsha to a number, a unique number 979BX? > > And Rajendra thank you for adding layers of fuzziness to the question > of identity- > > -I am who I am,my faith is in humanity, my belief is to be humane, and > I believe faith begins when the knowledge ends., and sab ka mali ek > hai.naam anek.- > > This is truly poetic. I think it represents the complexity of human > beings isn't it. I would love to hear what Mr. Nikelani would say when > he asks the question, Who are you and gets an answer like- ' I am who > I am,my faith is in humanity, my belief is to be humane' > > Tell me, do you think that a dull twelve digit number truly represents > who you are? > > Warm regards > > Taha > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- Rajen. From rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com Fri May 14 20:21:49 2010 From: rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com (Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 20:21:49 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Ram Sene - Rent a Riot In-Reply-To: <249738C9-70DE-40A4-9918-A5ABDA186416@sarai.net> References: <249738C9-70DE-40A4-9918-A5ABDA186416@sarai.net> Message-ID: In every faith and its followers there are these type of individuals who use the faith to live on, pink chaddi or green chaddi, it is all the same, these few if around hundreds can create enough unrest and miseries in the society, not that citizens have forgotten the repreinted versions of missionaries and their interpretations of what is revered by many.! What would be the colour of chaddis to be sent to those evangelists who preach anbout the only saviour and haven reserved only for believers., i wonder.! By the way, tabloid thehelka and its owners have proved how their contents change with rule of ruling party.! regards, rajen On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 12:42 AM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > Dear all, > > here is some entertaining and enlightening news. > > Shri Ram Sene, (those who were so offended by women spending time in > pubs not so long ago, because it offended Hindu values) are happy to > arrange a riot in exchange for hard cash. > > Is High Holy Hindutva getting short of cash, or has it always been > this way? A little pocket money on the side to keep the saffron flag > flying? > > Please watch - > > http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/Video/97234/42/Videos/%27Ram+Sene > +ready+to+riot+for+money%27.html > > This time, I think pink chaddis with fifty rupee notes tucked into > them should be sent to them, after all, if they are prepared to riot > for cash, we can always bribe them to stay at home. I think it used > to be called a 'protection racket' before it was made respectable by > Holy Hindutva. > > best > > Shuddha > > (Someone should bribe the Ram Sene and the likes of the Deobandi > Maulana who issued the fatwa against Muslim women working to just get > lost, preferably together) > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Rajen. From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Fri May 14 21:12:05 2010 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 16:42:05 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] UID CARD Doubts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Bipin and Rajen, Thank you for your responses. @Bipin- Every condom pack has a barcode. That barcode uniquely identifies that condom pack as that condom pack. Similarly bar codes are used for toothbrushes, fridges and almost every imaginable commodity available. These bar codes serve a utilitarian purpose. Do you see no difference between an inanimate condom pack and your own self Bipin? Do you not have a sense of agency? How can you feel alright if someone fixes your identity through a twelve digit number? As Rajen points out, a dog owner can tag his dog. Following Rajen, could we not assume that an owner of a soap factory has the same prerogative. So does the owner of a car manufacturing corporation or a person who owns a drug manufacturing plant. In other words any person who owns a means of production to manufacture a commodity is given the right to tag that commodity, by law so as to ascertain an exact amount of money that he could receive from the sale of such a commodity. Do you consider yourself a property of Government of India Bipin? is it not that WE THE PEOPLE of INDIA collectively own the Government and the land and all the resources and every thing which is there in this country? By collecting the identities of the people of India, is not the Government trying very hard to fundamentally change the primary relationship between a collective of Citizens and a machinery of the State which is run by ITS elected representatives? Who do you think you will belong to after Mr.Nilekani has done his job? India or Government of India? Warm regards Taha From anivar.aravind at gmail.com Sat May 15 10:59:20 2010 From: anivar.aravind at gmail.com (Anivar Aravind) Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 10:59:20 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Urgent action needed - anti-POSCO activists are under attack in Orissa In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear All, As reported yesterday, 40 platoons of police were deployed near Balitutha in Jagatsinghpur in Orissa where people are resisting against POSCO project and are sitting on a protest demo since 26 January 2010. The police force is now marching towards the protest site and the DM of the area is leading the march now (15 May 2010 - 9am IST). Some of us have called the SP Debadutta Singh who is at the site now and he says that they will charge the people. When asked why there is a force approaching people, his non-chalant answer was "these people are not allowing the government to enter the area. We will use force today to facilitate the entry of the government officials to the area. I am here and will use the force." There are around 700 local people sitting in the dharna at present and their lives alongwith others in the area are in danger. This brutal treatment by the state must be stopped and we all have to do whatever we can to get the force leave the area immediately. Please use all your contacts to help the anti-POSCO activists who have all along shown tremendous strength in fighitng against the steel giant POSCO and the state brutalities. This is an appeal to all human rights organisation across the globe to respond to this situation urgently. Please call the following people: 1- Superintendent of Police (Debadutta Singh) at 09437094678 2- Naveen Pattnaik, Chief Minister of Orissa Tel. No.(O) 0674- 2531100,2535100 (FAX) Tel. No.(R) 0674- 2590299, 2591099,2590844,2591100,2590833 Email : cmo at ori.nic.in 3- Prime Minister of India - Shri Manmohan Singh, Prime Minister of India, + 91 11 2301 6857 manmohan at sansad.nic.in Your urgent action is needed. Let us not let another Kalinganagar, Kashipur or Narayanpatna happen again. In solidarity, Sanjay Basu Mullick and Mamata Dash on behalf NFFPFW -- "Protect Livelihoods - Protect Resources" National Forum of Forest People and Forest Workers (NFFPFW) B-137 Dayanand Colony, 1st Floor Lajpat Nagar IV New Delhi - 110024 Ph: 011-26486931 E mail: nffpfwindia at gmail.com From anivar at movingrepublic.org Sat May 15 19:53:59 2010 From: anivar at movingrepublic.org (Anivar Aravind) Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 19:53:59 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Anti-Posco Struggle: Immediate Medical Help Needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: http://orissaconcerns.net/2010/05/immediate-medical-help-needed/ Now we got information abt 2 Activists critically injured with Metal Bullet. Immediate Medical Care is needed for Natha swain (from Nuagan) & Ramesh Das (from dhinkia). They lost a lot of blood so far. All Roads to Anti Posco Villages are blocked & sealed by Police. More than 100 people are Injured , which include women & children. There is no way to get medical support /go out of the Village because of the police blockade. If any kind of help is possible Call Prasanth paikarey +91 9437571547. We request all to remove blockade for ensure proper medical care for those who are injured. More Updates Posco Struggle: Stop Use of Force – Left Parties http://orissaconcerns.net/2010/05/left-parties-statement/ Press Release : STOP POLICE ATTACKS ON PEACEFUL PROTESTORS IN ORISSA Statement signed by many concerned individuals http://orissaconcerns.net/2010/05/stop-police-attacks-on-peaceful-protestors/ Todays Log from Anti Posco Struggle http://orissaconcerns.net/2010/05/updates-anti-posco/ Anivar Aravind 9448063780 -- "[It is not] possible to distinguish between 'numerical' and 'nonnumerical' algorithms, as if numbers were somehow different from other kinds of precise information." - Donald Knuth -- "[It is not] possible to distinguish between 'numerical' and 'nonnumerical' algorithms, as if numbers were somehow different from other kinds of precise information." - Donald Knuth From aliens at dataone.in Sat May 15 22:28:30 2010 From: aliens at dataone.in (Bipin Trivedi) Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 22:28:30 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] UID CARD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000801caf44f$d8eaca20$8ac05e60$@in> Dear Taha, When you buy Mobile having model no. and of course it will have barcode. But, it will be known by its make and model number only not at all with barcode. Barcode is for system recognition and we recognize it with model no. and maker name. You are using mobile perhaps since 8/10 years and carry the same number since long, have you lost your identity that you are Taha? The person known to you since long and even know your mob no. since long forgot you to call by the name Taha? No, not at all. You must be using credit/debit card having 16 digit no. since long. Wherever you swipe your card they even not know you and might met for the first time still they give you Rs. 25000/50000 or even more worth material without knowing you. This is the strength of digital technology where you don't lose your identity but it strengthens you more. What is govt. of India? It is a system governs by few people comes from people like us only under the decided framework. Elected politician comes and go but system must work. But, the things become tough to govern when population crosses 1 billion forced to adopt some system with the help of digital technology so governance become smoother and efficient. So, as explained above that by allotting 12/16 digit number to you, you will not at all lose your identity but it will help to strengthen your identity. Thanks Bipin -----Original Message----- From: Taha Mehmood [mailto:2tahamehmood at googlemail.com] Sent: Friday, May 14, 2010 9:12 PM To: Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi Cc: Bipin Trivedi; sarai-list Subject: Re: [Reader-list] UID CARD Doubts Dear Bipin and Rajen, Thank you for your responses. @Bipin- Every condom pack has a barcode. That barcode uniquely identifies that condom pack as that condom pack. Similarly bar codes are used for toothbrushes, fridges and almost every imaginable commodity available. These bar codes serve a utilitarian purpose. Do you see no difference between an inanimate condom pack and your own self Bipin? Do you not have a sense of agency? How can you feel alright if someone fixes your identity through a twelve digit number? As Rajen points out, a dog owner can tag his dog. Following Rajen, could we not assume that an owner of a soap factory has the same prerogative. So does the owner of a car manufacturing corporation or a person who owns a drug manufacturing plant. In other words any person who owns a means of production to manufacture a commodity is given the right to tag that commodity, by law so as to ascertain an exact amount of money that he could receive from the sale of such a commodity. Do you consider yourself a property of Government of India Bipin? is it not that WE THE PEOPLE of INDIA collectively own the Government and the land and all the resources and every thing which is there in this country? By collecting the identities of the people of India, is not the Government trying very hard to fundamentally change the primary relationship between a collective of Citizens and a machinery of the State which is run by ITS elected representatives? Who do you think you will belong to after Mr.Nilekani has done his job? India or Government of India? Warm regards Taha From tasveerghar at gmail.com Sat May 15 22:28:50 2010 From: tasveerghar at gmail.com (Tasveer Ghar) Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 22:28:50 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 2 new visual essays and a workshop In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Friends In continuation of our series of visual essays based on the Priya Paul Collection of Indian popular art, Tasveer Ghar (the house of images) announces two new essays, by Richard Davis and Arvind Rajagopal, on the themes of Hindu god posters and the images of commodity, respectively: (1) “Temple in a Frame: God Posters For and Of Worship” By Richard H. Davis http://www.tasveergharindia.net/cmsdesk/essay/97/ (2) “The Commodity Image in the (Post) Colony” By Arvind Rajagopal http://www.tasveergharindia.net/cmsdesk/essay/100/ We hope that you would enjoy reading these essays. You are invited to write in your comments and feedback about the essay using the online feedback feature given at the end of the essay. While we are soon going to announce more essays based on the Priya Paul images, the previous such essays can also be seen at the website. http://www.tasveergharindia.net/frmessaylisting.aspx We would also like to announce a forthcoming academic workshop on “Changing Popular Visual Cultures of Muslim Shrines: Transcultural Flows and Urban Spaces” to be held on 4th and 5th June 2010, at Heidelberg, Germany, supported by the Cluster of Excellence, Asia and Europe in Global Context. The details about this workshop can be seen at the following link: http://www.tasveergharindia.net/cmsdesk/essay/101/ This is also to remind you about our Call for Proposals for short fellowships from the Cluster of Excellence, which was sent a few weeks ago. You are encouraged to apply for the same as early as possible. The details about the fellowship can be seen at this link: http://tasveergharindia.net/cmsdesk/pages/fellowship.html Looking forward to your visit to our site and your valuable suggestions/feedback. Thanks The Tasveer Ghar team -- http://www.tasveerghar.net From chintangirishmodi at gmail.com Sat May 15 23:19:35 2010 From: chintangirishmodi at gmail.com (Chintan) Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 23:19:35 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Research Associate needed @ Centre for Children's Literature, Eklavya, Bhopal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Avinandan Mukherjee Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 17:23:27 +0530 Subject: Call for Applications for the post of Research Associate: Centre for Children's Literature, Eklavya, Bhopal To: [image: ad.jpg] Dear Sir/ Ma'am, We would deeply appreciate if you could help us circulate this mail and help us reach out to a wider audience/ pool of applicants. Please note that the same Call for Applications has been attached as a word document along with this mail, and may also be viewed at http://eklavya.in/go/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=183&Itemid=87 Thanks a lot for your cooperation Apologies for cross posting Regards Avinandan Mukherjee Research Associate Centre for Children's Literature Eklavya E-10, BDA Colony Shankar Nagar Shivaji Nagar Bhopal 462 016 India Phone (0755) 255 1109, 267 1017 Fax (0755) 255 1108 www.eklavya.in From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Sun May 16 13:17:32 2010 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 08:47:32 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] UID CARD Doubts Message-ID: Dear Bipin, Thank you for your response. You seem to suggest that as of now we have to carry a variety of 'identity' documents. UID will provide us with one document. And since this document will be used for all contexts therefore, in your opinion we will not use our identity but it will strengthen us more. Now I am tempted to regard this view as confusing. I think the view is clearly confusing because of two reasons. First, any document which claims to 'strengthen' my identity presupposes a clear nature of my 'identity'. If we take identity as a whole then please tell me whether name, age, gender, date of birth, nationality, religion, caste, language and region are the only aspects of this thing. Are there no other aspects? If there are, then could a UID number claim to truly represent who I am? Second, clearly a UID number will be an add on to my fuzzy notion of 'identity'. Your claim is that it will 'strengthen' my identity. Does strength comes only by adding something to an existing thing? Can't we lose something and gain strength at the same time? Warm regards Taha From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Sun May 16 18:42:23 2010 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 14:12:23 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] UID CARD Doubts Message-ID: Dear Bipin, It seems that you read only those mails which are addressed to you otherwise you may have recalled that while replying to Shahidhar's mail I had categorically said that I do not have any problem with Census. May I add that, although it is a somewhat awkward way of looking at people but at the moment we do not seem to have other credible options. -Till today you remain as Taha- What exactly do you mean by this statement? See I get a feeling that somehow you know the true nature of identity but for some reason you do not want to share it with us. Are you shy? Can I suggest something, if you are then please don't be. Please explain your point of view in a forthright manner. Share with us the nature of identity. Why don't you just clear this fuzziness of identity and we take it from there? -With UID allotted to all Indians- How do you know that UID will be allotted to 'Indians' only? Do Bengalis from Bangladesh look different from Bengalis from Bengal? Or do you think that none of them have access to a legitimate voter ID card, or passport, or a ration card? Don't you think we must invest in making the corrupt BSF more efficient in tackling this rather than focus on UID? It's cost efficient as well. And what about a person whose family is living in India for hundreds of years but has no records, no documents to prove he is who he claims to be and no one else to introduce him to a UID official, do you think he will get a UID number as well? If not, then in this case could we deem UID as an unjust exercise? Wouldn't it be a huge wastage of public funds in invest in such a exercise? We need technology Bipin. That's for sure. I would applaud any political party which shows will, grit, determination, and resilience to establish an intricate network of sewers all across the country. Wouldn't it be nice to live in a country where everyone has a place to pee and shit. Then and only then could we have a certain basic dignity of living in India, wouldn't you agree with? We are poor country. We don't have enough resources to dispose on anything which catches our fancy. We don't and we are doing it with UID and that's a matter of great shame isn't it. No UID card can alleviate that, can it? And what identity database does a government need to build a network of sewers across the country, tell me? and don't we urgently need a technology which can harness the daily waste of a billion Indians and not a fancy identity card which is based on a deeply fuzzy logic? Wouldn't you agree with me? Wouldn't most Indians be more happy if they can live without facing the indignity of shitting and peeing in public? Warm regards Taha From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Sun May 16 17:26:47 2010 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 12:56:47 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] ID Cards - Labour's Bad IDea Message-ID: Dear All, This is to bring in views of Conservative Party's on the issue of National Identity Card ID card. If UIDAI is supposed to bring in 3,50,000 jobs then why doesn't the UPA spam India with schools, hospital, primary health services, Latrines, roads, and sewers. Don't we need more sewers and not more ID cards in India? I am sure an investment in these sectors will drastically change the unemployment figures? Please read and think if a highly technology dependent country like UK, can provide services to its citizens without an ID card then why can't we do it? Warm regards Taha ID Cards - Labour's Bad IDea Labour’s plan to introduce ID cards will cost billions of pounds but will not make us safer and could expose the public to an even greater risk of identity fraud. ID cards are a very bad IDea – and you can call on the Government to scrap them by signing our petition today. ID cards will not make us safer: * They do not prevent terrorist attacks – ID cards are compulsory in Spain, but that did not stop the Madrid bombings in 2004 * They will not prevent illegal immigration, as foreign visitors will not have to have an ID card unless they plan to stay for more than three months * They won’t prevent human trafficking – only a dedicated Border Police Force can enforce proper checks on people entering and leaving the country ID cards are a waste of money: * Everybody will have to pay £93 to get one – this is the official estimated price for a combined ID card and passport package * Implementing the scheme will cost up to £20 billion of taxpayers’ money, according to estimates from the London School of Economics A recipe for disaster: We’ve had data loss after data loss from this incompetent Government. * The personal details of 25 million individuals, and the bank details of 15 million people, were lost by HM Revenue and Customs * The DVLA lost the details of 3 million learner drivers * The names, addresses and expected release dates of every prisoner in England and Wales were on an unencrypted memory stick that went missing The introduction of ID cards will see almost 30 separate pieces of personal information about you - including your name, date of birth, previous addresses, photograph, signature, fingerprints and other biometric details – stored in one place. The potential for another data loss disaster is huge – and that is why it’s vital that everyone who is opposed to ID cards joins our campaign today. We will scrap the ID cards scheme, and use some of the savings to build more prison places, provide more drug rehabilitation for those in custody and create a dedicated Border Police Force. From aliens at dataone.in Sun May 16 17:51:09 2010 From: aliens at dataone.in (Bipin Trivedi) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 17:51:09 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] UID CARD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000201caf4f2$449af770$cdd0e650$@in> Dear Sir, Still you have not answer my question that recent census going on, whether you oppose this also? Till today you remain as Taha and if UID will be there or not, you will remain Taha without doubts. The Indian governance system requires this UID to recognize Taha. So, for you and others known to you no need to bother whether you owe UID number or not. With UID allotted to all Indians, India becomes one family, that is what is requires and it will strengthen us. Thanks Bipin -----Original Message----- From: Taha Mehmood [mailto:2tahamehmood at googlemail.com] Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2010 1:18 PM To: Bipin Trivedi Cc: sarai-list Subject: UID CARD Doubts Dear Bipin, Thank you for your response. You seem to suggest that as of now we have to carry a variety of 'identity' documents. UID will provide us with one document. And since this document will be used for all contexts therefore, in your opinion we will not use our identity but it will strengthen us more. Now I am tempted to regard this view as confusing. I think the view is clearly confusing because of two reasons. First, any document which claims to 'strengthen' my identity presupposes a clear nature of my 'identity'. If we take identity as a whole then please tell me whether name, age, gender, date of birth, nationality, religion, caste, language and region are the only aspects of this thing. Are there no other aspects? If there are, then could a UID number claim to truly represent who I am? Second, clearly a UID number will be an add on to my fuzzy notion of 'identity'. Your claim is that it will 'strengthen' my identity. Does strength comes only by adding something to an existing thing? Can't we lose something and gain strength at the same time? Warm regards Taha From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Sun May 16 17:11:13 2010 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 12:41:13 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] UK to Kill off National ID Card Program Message-ID: Dear All, If technology is supposed to be the sole provider of services then why, WHY did UK government plans to cancel its National ID Program? Is the UK government 'anti technology'? Can it not give services to its citizens without this number? And if it needs conservative government to conclusion to put a stop on wastage of this huge amount of money, then my vote is for BJP provided they shed their stupid communal agenda and start playing a role of a mature opposition. Gadhkari are you listening? And someone must please request Mr. Nandan Nilekani to read this: 'The parties have also agreed to scrap the National Identity Register, a computer system storing information from biometric passports and ID cards under development by the U.K.'s Identity and Passport Service and Border Agency. They will also cancel the "next generation of biometric passports" and the Contact Point database, which stores information on minors under 18.' Warm regards Taha http://www.pcworld.com/article/196299/uk_to_kill_off_national_id_card_program.html The U.K.'s new coalition government plans to cancel the national ID card program, calling it part of a "substantial erosion of civil liberties" that took place under the former Labour government. Following an election last week where no party gained a majority in Parliament, the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats allied to form a new government with David Cameron as prime minister. The parties have also agreed to scrap the National Identity Register, a computer system storing information from biometric passports and ID cards under development by the U.K.'s Identity and Passport Service and Border Agency. They will also cancel the "next generation of biometric passports" and the Contact Point database, which stores information on minors under 18. Labour's ID card project was the subject of frequent criticism as privacy activists saw the program as overly expensive, fraught with security risks and a violation of personal liberties. Labour contended the program would allow for tighter control over immigration and help fight crime and terrorism. The program launched in November 2008, with the Border Agency issuing ID cards to foreign nationals who came to the U.K. to work or study. Starting this year, people could voluntarily receive the card. The former government had also planned to issue the ID when people renewed their passport. The new passports would contain biometric information. Soon the program will be frozen. A spokesman for the Home Office said on Friday more detail on how the programs would proceed would be available within two weeks. The Home Office's Identity and Passport Service said on its Web site that "applications can continue to be made for ID cards but we would advise anyone thinking of applying to wait for further announcements." "Until Parliament agrees otherwise, identity cards remain valid and as such can still be used as an identity document and for travel within Europe," the agency said. One way to cancel the program would be to repeal the Identity Cards Act, passed in 2006, said Michael Parker, press officer for NO2ID, which has campaigned against the program. Despite an estimated cost in the billions of pounds, no substantial contracts were ever awarded and little infrastructure built, Parker said. However, the government did spend substantial sums on consultants and promoting the plan to gain public support, he said. "I suppose really we just remain hopeful that the coalition will continue to look not just at identity cards and schemes that back it but the wider tranche of deeply invasive and problematic schemes that the government has brought up in the last 10 years," Parker said. From rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com Sun May 16 21:31:10 2010 From: rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com (Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 21:31:10 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] UID CARD In-Reply-To: <000801caf44f$d8eaca20$8ac05e60$@in> References: <000801caf44f$d8eaca20$8ac05e60$@in> Message-ID: Dear taha, while thoughts expressed by you and reservations of id cards for all with digital alpha numericals, the need is basically for the system to KNOW how many are truly in the system and how many are not WITH the system, is my gut feeling. For with a population of over a billion, with state employing not less than 25 lakhs as state and central, direct and indirect employment,with as per the guestimates of 34 crore below poverty line not even capable of earning a single wholesome meal a day, with about ten million individuals in tribal belts living on kernels of fruits as no public distribution system has reached them in the system,when every time some delivery system is designed, it is eaten of, stolen off, siphoned off by the individuals greedies of the system, is it not expedient to have the id to demand and know what has happened to the goodies that are supposed to be delivered to individuals in packages like vidharbha package, UP package or bihar package or 16 percent first bite to any one faith followers, as if only some in society are poor if they are followers of one faith. i wonder.........!!! Good governance shall mean that each of the individual in society gets the benefit of governance, the delivery system covers each irrespective of his faith, gender and color, creed or region.Any system human made is not perfect as humans are not perfect, we have the good and bad qualities embedded in us, even nature does not spare when mis utilised, system subverted by greedy unfortunately, safeguards the guilty, punish the innocents.So, may be id will help improve democratic rule, recover the taxes more accurately by more details of all the transactions.? Some communities and individuals are notorious for CASH transactions in petis, may be they will get noted with as money trail is better monitored. ids.! Any good has its contigent and collateral BAD with it and it is for the intellect to visualise the good and bad of the system.As to what is good and bad, it is intrinsic to each mind, etched at birth, known also as conscious mind, but alas, when we chase the mirage of material happiness, often we lock our conscious. ? regards, rajen On Sat, May 15, 2010 at 10:28 PM, Bipin Trivedi wrote: > Dear Taha, > > When you buy Mobile having model no. and of course it will have barcode. > But, it will be known by its make and model number only not at all with > barcode. Barcode is for system recognition and we recognize it with model > no. and maker name. > > You are using mobile perhaps since 8/10 years and carry the same number > since long, have you lost your identity that you are Taha? The person known > to you since long and even know your mob no. since long forgot you to call > by the name Taha? No, not at all. You must be using credit/debit card > having > 16 digit no. since long. Wherever you swipe your card they even not know > you > and might met for the first time still they give you Rs. 25000/50000 or > even > more worth material without knowing you. This is the strength of digital > technology where you don't lose your identity but it strengthens you more. > > What is govt. of India? It is a system governs by few people comes from > people like us only under the decided framework. Elected politician comes > and go but system must work. But, the things become tough to govern when > population crosses 1 billion forced to adopt some system with the help of > digital technology so governance become smoother and efficient. > > So, as explained above that by allotting 12/16 digit number to you, you > will > not at all lose your identity but it will help to strengthen your identity. > > Thanks > Bipin > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Taha Mehmood [mailto:2tahamehmood at googlemail.com] > Sent: Friday, May 14, 2010 9:12 PM > To: Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi > Cc: Bipin Trivedi; sarai-list > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] UID CARD Doubts > > Dear Bipin and Rajen, > > Thank you for your responses. > > @Bipin- > > Every condom pack has a barcode. That barcode uniquely identifies that > condom pack as that condom pack. Similarly bar codes are used for > toothbrushes, fridges and almost every imaginable commodity available. > These bar codes serve a utilitarian purpose. > > Do you see no difference between an inanimate condom pack and your own > self Bipin? Do you not have a sense of agency? How can you feel > alright if someone fixes your identity through a twelve digit number? > > As Rajen points out, a dog owner can tag his dog. Following Rajen, > could we not assume that an owner of a soap factory has the same > prerogative. So does the owner of a car manufacturing corporation or a > person who owns a drug manufacturing plant. > > In other words any person who owns a means of production to > manufacture a commodity is given the right to tag that commodity, by > law so as to ascertain an exact amount of money that he could receive > from the sale of such a commodity. > > Do you consider yourself a property of Government of India Bipin? is > it not that WE THE PEOPLE of INDIA collectively own the Government and > the land and all the resources and every thing which is there in this > country? > > By collecting the identities of the people of India, is not the > Government trying very hard to fundamentally change the primary > relationship between a collective of Citizens and a machinery of the > State which is run by ITS elected representatives? Who do you think > you will belong to after Mr.Nilekani has done his job? India or > Government of India? > > Warm regards > > Taha > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Rajen. From jeebesh at sarai.net Mon May 17 10:09:59 2010 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 10:09:59 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Political Situation in Albania Message-ID: <6DB90B16-6904-41B8-BA6F-3A66F2622EB9@sarai.net> From Clara (Meister) to Nico (Dockx) Subject: Political Situation in Albania ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Berlin 04.05.2010 Dear friends, since the elections last year I am surprised and disappointed how complicated and almost impossible it is to be informed about the political situation in Albania. even if you would like to learn more you find very few (often not thoroughly researched) articles in German (and English). Last weekend the opposition collected more than 200.000 citizens to peacefully demonstrate against Berisha and to ask for the recount of the votes and their democratic right. 200 citizens and 22 politicians went into hunger strike. All I found in German is just a short note. Here, below, is a letter that Anri (Sala) forwarded to me: Clara (Meister) Tirana, May 04, 2010 The Hunger Strike Committee Re: Letter to the members of International Community and Media Dear Friends, We, 22 members of parliament and 200 citizens of Albania, concerned about the fate of democracy in our country have decided to engage in the ultimate form of peaceful resistance by going on a hunger strike in the name of the cornerstone of any democracy: free and fair elections. Our demand is simple: a full and thorough parliamentary inquiry into the elections of June 28th 2009, including the opening of the ballot boxes and the examination of the electoral material contained therein. Our demand is not motivated by a yearning for power, but by the aspiration that the next elections are guaranteed against falling prey to the same machinations and manipulations For the last nine months we asked for our constitutional right to transparency only to be denied in all our efforts through the arrogance of a government that is no longer constrained by the Constitution in its actions. In April 30th, 200,000 Albanians protested in Tirana in the name of the transparency of their votes. The same day, we 222 citizens of Albania decided to start a hunger strike. It is not a decision lightly taken, nor are we ignorant of the gravity of our course of action. Yet we are no more prepared to give up on free and fair elections and democracy in Albania than you would be in any of your countries. We ask only for what you take for granted in your countries: elections that are free and fair. No more. No less. The Hunger Strike Committee Tirana, 05.05.2010 Thanks Nico, if you can spread it out it helps, Brussels has been insensible so far, many greets Anri Tirana, 07.05.2010 Nico, have a look tomorrow at the opentheboxes page as I am uploading now a few interviews from inside the tents. Their voices really need to be spread out, it’s in different languages. It’s in the ‘from the inside’ link in the page. Hugs, Anri. Dear Friends, please check the new link for interviews (filmed by artist Anri Sala) with the hunger strikers in Tirana (in english, french, Italian & portuguese) http://www.opentheboxes.com/archive.php On June 28th 2009, Albania held its parliamentary elections. These elections were supposed to mark a watershed moment in the country’s democratic transition: a break with the tradition of manipulated and contested elections. Unfortunately the story was to repeat itself. The Socialist led opposition complained about multiple irregularities in the electoral process and its claims were supported by the OSCE- ODHIR report that observed serious irregularities, the most disturbing of which concerned the fact that ballot counting in a full one third of the counting centers was bad or very bad. However, all the complaints of the opposition were dismissed by the relevant institutions, through decisions taken under extreme political pressure from the government. Faced with the obstinate denial of its right to transparency, a right enshrined in Albania’s constitution, the opposition decided to escalate its democratic action: since April 30th, 200 opposition MPs and ordinary citizens have been camped in Tirana’s Martyrs of the Nation Boulevard, engaged in an open ended hunger strike in the name of free and fair elections. Clara (Meister) Live stream from the camp: www.opentheboxes.com Support us to get more attention to their cause by forwarding the link or by putting us in contact with journalists and bloggers! contact: clara at soundfair.net anrisala at yahoo.com nicodockx at yahoo.com From chintangirishmodi at gmail.com Mon May 17 10:52:36 2010 From: chintangirishmodi at gmail.com (Chintan) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 10:52:36 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] From an art class with kids at Mumbai Mobile Creches In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Excerpts from http://conversationcompiler.blogspot.com/2010/05/five-giraffes-finding-their-way.html Our giraffes have hopefully reached Ola Helland of Stavanger, Norway. In our art class at MMC, we painted giraffes for his One Million Giraffes project. And hoped that he wins that bet with his friend. The kids were full of questions like: 'Will he accept ours?', 'Why does he want it?', 'Where does he live?', 'How will you send it?'... I was hoping to get pictures of all the kids with their giraffes but the camera battery died. Here's what we did. We used various regional newspapers to celebrate the pluralism that is India. And I love the Urdu script. The Urdu paper looked like a painting. Note: To view the pictures, go to the link mentioned above. To read about the One Million Giraffes Project, visit http://www.onemilliongiraffes.com/ From aliens at dataone.in Mon May 17 11:04:35 2010 From: aliens at dataone.in (Bipin Trivedi) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 11:04:35 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] UID CARD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000f01caf582$a48abdb0$eda03910$@in> Dear Taha, I read all the topic discussion mails. But I have asked this question 3 times to you but did not reply by you to me. Anyway, so you don't see any credible option to disclose the identity for census than why only oppose to UID on identity point of view. Irrespective of UID would be there or not your identity will remain as Taha and till today you remain Taha is just continuous statement with this to explain. I don't want to go with the Illegal migration taken place till date for whatever reason in the past. But, I believe with UID such a people can be rectify easily and can be sent back immediately. Definitely illegal migrant like Bangladeshis are not at all Indian? Why you ask such question itself is questionable. BSF are not only and solely responsible. If state government remains firm for not allowing infiltration then BSF will not dare to allow. So, first culprit is vote seeker and so called secular politicians. But, till date those who have got ration card, voter rights and other things with the help of rotten politician, we have to consider them as Indian. However, if we not stop illegal migration/infiltration India will definitely cross 2 billion population perhaps in couple of decades and that situation, poverty, HDI will be even worse. However, nobody thinks on war-foot basis on population control. I will give 1 ex. of Mumbai city. Water supply capacity of Mumbai city for about 1 crore population, but Mumbai has population of about 1.5 crore. This is more or less situation in all the cities/towns. According to you those family living in India for about 100 years without record is just unbelievable. I do not think this is true. But even if it is true then I consider this as fault from their part to perform their duty or willingly they don't want to get registered or don't want to cooperate when government official went there for noting purpose. Note that ration card, driving license or any other things if you want, you have to go and get and government cannot come to your home to allot you. My key argument was this only many time that India leg behind in efficiency, discipline, humanity because of their failure to perform duty honestly and sincerely. Apart from their job duty, one must show alertness towards their duty for family, society, village/town/city, state, nation and by that way contribute to strengthen the democracy. Yes, it is true that government must provide the facilities of pee and shit to everyone. But, I have noticed in many places that near huts/chawl there is public toilet but still many people/children does pee/shit in open only. This behavior of public also restricts government to build more such facilities. Lack of discipline and public attitude is also biggest drawback for development particularly HDI. Thanks Bipin -----Original Message----- From: Taha Mehmood [mailto:2tahamehmood at googlemail.com] Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2010 6:42 PM To: Bipin Trivedi Cc: sarai-list Subject: UID CARD Doubts Dear Bipin, It seems that you read only those mails which are addressed to you otherwise you may have recalled that while replying to Shahidhar's mail I had categorically said that I do not have any problem with Census. May I add that, although it is a somewhat awkward way of looking at people but at the moment we do not seem to have other credible options. -Till today you remain as Taha- What exactly do you mean by this statement? See I get a feeling that somehow you know the true nature of identity but for some reason you do not want to share it with us. Are you shy? Can I suggest something, if you are then please don't be. Please explain your point of view in a forthright manner. Share with us the nature of identity. Why don't you just clear this fuzziness of identity and we take it from there? -With UID allotted to all Indians- How do you know that UID will be allotted to 'Indians' only? Do Bengalis from Bangladesh look different from Bengalis from Bengal? Or do you think that none of them have access to a legitimate voter ID card, or passport, or a ration card? Don't you think we must invest in making the corrupt BSF more efficient in tackling this rather than focus on UID? It's cost efficient as well. And what about a person whose family is living in India for hundreds of years but has no records, no documents to prove he is who he claims to be and no one else to introduce him to a UID official, do you think he will get a UID number as well? If not, then in this case could we deem UID as an unjust exercise? Wouldn't it be a huge wastage of public funds in invest in such a exercise? We need technology Bipin. That's for sure. I would applaud any political party which shows will, grit, determination, and resilience to establish an intricate network of sewers all across the country. Wouldn't it be nice to live in a country where everyone has a place to pee and shit. Then and only then could we have a certain basic dignity of living in India, wouldn't you agree with? We are poor country. We don't have enough resources to dispose on anything which catches our fancy. We don't and we are doing it with UID and that's a matter of great shame isn't it. No UID card can alleviate that, can it? And what identity database does a government need to build a network of sewers across the country, tell me? and don't we urgently need a technology which can harness the daily waste of a billion Indians and not a fancy identity card which is based on a deeply fuzzy logic? Wouldn't you agree with me? Wouldn't most Indians be more happy if they can live without facing the indignity of shitting and peeing in public? Warm regards Taha From shashidhar at butterfliesindia.org Mon May 17 12:08:21 2010 From: shashidhar at butterfliesindia.org (Shashidhar) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 12:08:21 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] From an art class with kids at Mumbai Mobile Creches In-Reply-To: <99297C91594541A49A603233821442CD@butterfliesdelhi.local> References: <99297C91594541A49A603233821442CD@butterfliesdelhi.local> Message-ID: <002101caf58b$8acf4860$a06dd920$@butterfliesindia.org> Dear Chintan, A real good project unlike most other negative literature which seems to proliferate here and for a change there is some talk about children, the list seems to be completely oblivious to their existence. Regards, Shashidhar -----Original Message----- From: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net [mailto:reader-list-bounces at sarai.net] On Behalf Of Chintan Sent: Monday, May 17, 2010 11:16 AM To: sarai list; learningnet-india at yahoogroups.com Subject: [Reader-list] From an art class with kids at Mumbai Mobile Creches Excerpts from http://conversationcompiler.blogspot.com/2010/05/five-giraffes-finding-their-way.html Our giraffes have hopefully reached Ola Helland of Stavanger, Norway. In our art class at MMC, we painted giraffes for his One Million Giraffes project. And hoped that he wins that bet with his friend. The kids were full of questions like: 'Will he accept ours?', 'Why does he want it?', 'Where does he live?', 'How will you send it?'... I was hoping to get pictures of all the kids with their giraffes but the camera battery died. Here's what we did. We used various regional newspapers to celebrate the pluralism that is India. And I love the Urdu script. The Urdu paper looked like a painting. Note: To view the pictures, go to the link mentioned above. To read about the One Million Giraffes Project, visit http://www.onemilliongiraffes.com/ _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From nc-agricowi at netcologne.de Mon May 17 15:26:00 2010 From: nc-agricowi at netcologne.de (nmf2010) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 11:56:00 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] =?iso-8859-1?q?Program_-_week_21_-_NewMediaFest=272?= =?iso-8859-1?q?010?= Message-ID: <20100517115601.97DE8310.53755355@192.168.0.2> NewMediaFest'2010 ---------------------------------- program - week 21 - 17-23 May 2010 ---------------------------------- 1. Feature of the Week 17-23 May 2010 http://2010.newmediafest.org/?p=813 - Family Portrait - new media art project by Wilfried Agricola de Cologne Agricola de Cologne's collaborative project "Family Portrait" portrays three generations of the Partnoy family from Argentina in a triple diasporic tale of survival and artistic creativity. Winner of the MOSAICA Award 2005 2. Feature of the Month MAY 2010 http://2010.newmediafest.org/?p=782 VideoChannel Cologne presents [self] ~imaging v.1.0 - artists portraying themselves in film & video, the 1st of 4 features including each 25 artists' videos to be released in May, June, July and August 2010. 3. The week is featuring physical screenings of CologneOFF V on Fonlad - Digital Art Festival 15-28 May Coimbra/PT - www.fonlad.net CologneOFF V One Shot - International Shortfilm Festival Yerewan/Armenia 17-24 May 2010 Details about the selected artists can be found on http://coff.newmediafest.org/blog/?p=483 CologneOFF V - the 5th Cologne Online Film Festival edition can be accessed directly via http://coff05.newmediafest.org -------------------------------------------------------- NewMediaFest'2010 10 Years [NewMediaArtProjectNetwork]:||cologne global heritage of digital culture 1 January - 31 December 2010 http://2010.newmediafest.org director and chief curator: Wilfried Agricola de Cologne 2010 [at] newmediafest.org ---------------------------------------------------- From rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com Mon May 17 20:39:32 2010 From: rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com (Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 20:39:32 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] UID CARD Doubts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Taha and Bipin, may be id card and national register is a way of gagging dissent, as i just think about it more, it looks, it is possible to make a sub project in ids project, for all the politicians who are in power, all the babus who are in service and are essentially corrupt in nexus with the rulers, judges who take couriered funds at their door steps, judges who are land grabbers will have "unique" id so that system bypasses them as it does now, so also the "journalists" and "intellectals" who form the forums to propagate their intellectal prostitution for the funds and paid news category,with grants and funds for the NGOs,do you know why, it is evident that this forum has a unique system where i have been getting tickets for my replies to all those posts, and a unique number, may be for moderate, gag, censored post or thoughts of dissent being kept out of the list...............? Regards, rajen. On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 1:17 PM, Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com>wrote: > Dear Bipin, > > Thank you for your response. > > You seem to suggest that as of now we have to carry a variety of > 'identity' documents. UID will provide us with one document. And since > this document will be used for all contexts therefore, in your opinion > we will not use our identity but it will strengthen us more. > > Now I am tempted to regard this view as confusing. I think the view is > clearly confusing because of two reasons. First, any document which > claims to 'strengthen' my identity presupposes a clear nature of my > 'identity'. If we take identity as a whole then please tell me whether > name, age, gender, date of birth, nationality, religion, caste, > language and region are the only aspects of this thing. Are there no > other aspects? If there are, then could a UID number claim to truly > represent who I am? > > Second, clearly a UID number will be an add on to my fuzzy notion of > 'identity'. Your claim is that it will 'strengthen' my identity. Does > strength comes only by adding something to an existing thing? Can't we > lose something and gain strength at the same time? > > Warm regards > > Taha > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Rajen. From shuddha at sarai.net Mon May 17 21:50:02 2010 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 21:50:02 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Alleged Maoist Atrocities Message-ID: <26C997A3-93AB-4D7B-BF5C-0752EE6402DD@sarai.net> Dear All, While I have on several occasions expressed my disgust at the way in which the Government of India is conducting it's 'Operation Green Hunt', I have to say that the news of the attacks by alleged Maoists in Chattisgarh, in which 6 villagers have been killed, and more recently a bus, with several civilians (and some special police officers) has been bombed, is deeply disturbing. It is a totally different matter from attacking men in uniform, (such as the CRPF jawans who were attacked not so long ago, resulting in 76 casualties). Though I do not support any war, including the Maoist initiated 'Peoples War' or for that matter, the Government of India's 'Operation Green Hunt', in any war, armed men in uniform in a combat zone are fair targets. The death of the 76 CRPF jawans, though regrettable, is not in any way different from the death of any guerrila soldiers in the PLGA in any combat operation. I refuse to be blackmailed into thinking of such an event as an evidence of Maoist 'atrocities'. But by no stretch of imagination can the same principles of combat be extended in operations that involve unarmed civilians, (such as the incidents that have come to light today) no matter who conducts them. Regardless of whether the state or the Maoists conduct such operations, they must be condemned by all sensible people in the harshest terms. The Maoists, and the state must be compelled, through relentless civic pressure, to publicly abide by the Geneva Conventions in the matter on the treatment of non-combatants in a conflict situation. (And yes, there are conventions that shape the conduct of non-state actors, or the conduct of the state in relation to non-state actors) The presence of 15 special police officers in the bus that was bombed cannot be offered as a justification for the bombing, because a large number of people who were harmed in the attack had nothing to do with any arm of the state, they were just ordinary passengers. This is a simple and disgusting act of terrorism. It cannot be explained away in any sense as part of a campaign of liberation. If it is true that these attacks have been carried out by the Maoists, then, it is clear that they want to ratchet up the general intensity of violence in the regions where they have a presence. They want the government to unleash a military style offensive, because nothing would serve their purpose better. There can be no other explanation for the manner of these attacks. This is a disastrous and cynical policy, which will wreck havoc with the lives of the people of the area and cannot be justified by any means whatsoever. If the government of India responds by increasing the level and intensity of the conflict, it will become an accessory of the Maoists design to totally militarize the areas of central, southern and eastern India where they currently have a presence. If nothing else, this shows how the policy of 'Protracted People's War' is bound to degenerate (and in fact is already degenerating) into an orgy of random violence, exactly as it did in Peru and Colombia, where the 'Sendero Luminoso' ('Shining Path') and 'FARC' rebels competed with the state and right-wing militias in a sad spiralling descent into armed chaos and brigandage that did nothing to fulfil any revolutionary goal. If anything it strengthened the might of the state and the right wing militias in Peru and Colombia. The Maoists actions (attacks on unarmed civilians) cannot bring about any other results either. The ultimate and only beneficiary of this process will be the state and the corporations who want total control over the forests of Central India. However, we must not rush to conclusions. If the Maoists disclaim responsibility for these attacks, then we will have to see whether or not such a disclaimer has any objective basis. Independent investigations will have to be carrired out. If, by any means, it is possible that these attacks are 'false flag' operations, conducted by rogue elements of the state machinery, or even endorsed by the state, then the responsibility for the violence will lie squarely on the state. It must, however, be understood by the Maoists (even if they have not perpetrated these massacres) that the style of their politics can and does ennable the state to conduct precisely such 'false flag' operations. If there are any amongst the leadership of the Maoists who are sensitive to the possibilities of forging an alternative radical politics they must begin considering the necessity of abandoning the disastrous method of 'protracted peoples war' and explore ways to an open, transparent, militant and public politics that does not involve the endless cycle of retreats and massacres. Wherever the truth may life, this is a very sad day indeed, best Shuddha Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From indersalim at gmail.com Mon May 17 23:45:57 2010 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 23:45:57 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Blog: Art Karavan International Message-ID: Dear All please press http://artkaravan.wordpress.com/ to see images from Art Karavan International The process of uploading is going on, still more to go in.... with lot other details to accompnay, but meanwhile you may have a look ... Event dates 12th Feb. 2010 to 18th April 2010. Desitnations covered : Shantiniketan, Kolkata, Ranchi, Patna, Lucknow, Shimla, Jammu, Srinagar & Delhi. with love and regards inder salim -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Tue May 18 03:07:05 2010 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 22:37:05 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] UID CARD Doubts Message-ID: Dear Bipin and Rajender, In exchanging mails with you guys, I have been able to make an interesting archive of attitudes and notions which bind people to the charm of identity cards. Thank you so much for your responses. In this regard may I just say that I do not have any problem with the idea of Census. That is, Census as enumeration of people. However Census as it has been carried out in the present form in India, is deeply problematic. Let me give you some examples to demonstrate why I think so. I draw your attention to excerpts from a story filed by Sugata Srinivasaraju and published by Outlook Magazine. problem lies in obtaining the fingerprints of rural folk: most of them are engaged in manual labour or farm work and arrive with dirty palms that defeat the biometric reading machines. Pails of water, detergent and towels are provided for cleaning up. Much time is lost in such rescanning and it goes against the official estimate of five minutes for the young, nine for the elderly. http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?265326 Could we assume that if UID is not able to get proper fingerprints of those people in whose name it was established then should not seriously think about the veracity of its claims? Mr. Nilekani wrote a book. In that book he claimed that Technology can help bring underprivileged to the mainstream. Now we are seeing of instances of how technology is not ideal it is claimed to be. Why should we waste so much money on this exercise? Take another excerpt. People are being fed all sorts of stories about the magical powers to this card. Isn't this bizzare? Villagers are enthusiastic about this rigorous profiling process even though there’s little awareness about the true purpose of the exercise. This is because of some falsehoods that have somehow spread in these areas. Nagamma, an elderly woman coming out after being profiled, thinks her eyes had been tested and found to be in perfect condition. Another middle-aged woman thought the exercise would bring her a new ration card—one that would entitle her family to an extra four kilos of rice. Some others were in a tizzy that if they didn’t undergo this “photography” their BPL cards would be taken away. Most, however, had queued up because they didn’t want to be left out of a sarkari exercise their neighbours were submitting to. Of the dozen people Outlook spoke to, only Muniswamy could tell us that this process would ensure that no one had more than one voter ID card or ration card—the way it should be, unlike some in his village who had illegally acquired two of each. http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?265326 Identity card theft is increasing all over the world. Even if our UID which seems like a hotch-potch archive of hearsays and false impressions gets working then what is the guarantee that the data will be protected? And what do you guys have to say about excerpt from the story below? CIFAS – a not-for-profit fraud prevention service – said there has been a 20% increase in identity fraud in the first three months of 2010 compared to the same period last year, with 27,000 victims. Far more fraudsters are making use of the victim's current address, which because it is genuine, is more difficult to detect. http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2010/may/16/false-identity-cost Warm regards Taha From aman.am at gmail.com Tue May 18 08:34:14 2010 From: aman.am at gmail.com (Aman Sethi) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 08:34:14 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Adivasis allege torture in anti-Naxal operations Message-ID: Dear all, A story that I did for The Hindu, but that I dont think was carried in all editions: http://beta.thehindu.com/news/states/article432549.ece best a/ Adivasis allege torture in anti-Naxal operations Seventeen Adivasi villagers of Samna in Orissa's Narayanpatna block claim that they were brutally assaulted in custody last week, an allegation the police have denied. According to the villagers, they were picked up on May 9, as part of a joint operation conducted by the Orissa and Andhra Pradesh police along the inter-State border, airlifted to a police station in Andhra Pradesh and held in custody for three days before being released on May 14. “Uniformed policemen surrounded our village on Sunday morning [May 9], when we were leaving for the market,” said Nachika Jaddo, one of those who were picked up. “Seventeen men, including two dokras [old men] were rounded up, beaten up and then dragged to a spot 2 km away.” The villagers were then bundled into a waiting helicopter, blindfolded and flown to the Salur police station in Vizianagaram district of Andhra Pradesh. “They tied our hands behind our back and repeatedly struck us with lathis,” said another victim, who had bruises all over the back and shoulders. “They kept asking us about Maoists, but we couldn't understand what they were saying.” Most of the Adivasis along the Orissa-Andhra Pradesh border speak Kondi — an Adivasi dialect — and are often unable to communicate with those outside their tribe. “They spoke to us in Hindi, Oriya and Telugu, and when we couldn't answer, they hit us all over, including on the soles of our feet,” said a third victim. In all, The Hindu interviewed four of the 17 victims, including 60-year-old Nachika Chuchai, with the help of a translator. Koraput Superintendent of Police Anup Kumar Sahoo confirmed that 17 villagers had been detained for questioning, but denied that they were beaten up or airlifted. “These 17 men were found in the forest on May 9 near the site of an encounter between security forces and the Maoists.” They were then taken to Andhra Pradesh on foot, which took almost three days.” The villagers were immediately produced before a district magistrate in Salur and released on May 14. None was formally arrested, the SP said. Informed sources in the Andhra police suggest that the villagers might have been picked up as part of a much larger exercise. According to the sources, the police operation was planned when the Andhra Pradesh police received information that members of the Kalimela Dalam, involved in the killing of 38 security force members at Chitrakonda in 2008, were moving through the Narayanpatna jungles. On May 9, 2010, there was an exchange of fire between Maoists and the security forces. The local press reported police sources as claiming that up to 10 Maoists were killed. However, not a single body has been recovered as yet. The 17 villagers were picked up, soon after the skirmishes. According to the sources, the villagers were immediately airlifted to Salur, where they were interrogated for information on the movement of Maoist companies in Narayanpatna and subsequently released. Intelligence sources told The Hindu that Chhattisgarh, Orissa, Andhra Pradesh and Maharashtra share a set of Mi-17 helicopters which can carry up to 32 passengers. The sources, however, declined to provide the exact number of helicopters for reasons of operational security. Those detained were Nachika Jaddo, Nachika Musri, Nachika Lachna, Nachika Sudru, Nachika Sehra, Nachika Nando, Nachika Roopa, Nachika Sonna, Nachika Porda/Podda, Nachika Kuslu, Nachika Abhi, Nachika Lassu, Nachika Dora and Nachika Chuchai (both above 60), Nachika Subana, Nachika Johra and Nachika Kumlu. From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue May 18 09:12:18 2010 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 09:12:18 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Alleged Maoist Atrocities In-Reply-To: <26C997A3-93AB-4D7B-BF5C-0752EE6402DD@sarai.net> References: <26C997A3-93AB-4D7B-BF5C-0752EE6402DD@sarai.net> Message-ID: Irony ...... The last para tells all the motives........same people ....same style.....like the Batla house...... On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 9:50 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > Dear All, > > While I have on several occasions expressed my disgust at the way in > which the Government of India is conducting it's 'Operation Green > Hunt', I have to say that the news of the attacks by alleged Maoists > in Chattisgarh, in which 6 villagers have been killed, and more > recently a bus, with several civilians (and some special police > officers)  has been bombed, is deeply disturbing. > > It is a totally different matter from attacking men in uniform, (such > as the CRPF jawans who were attacked not so long ago, resulting in 76 > casualties). Though I do not support any war, including the Maoist > initiated 'Peoples War' or for that matter, the Government of India's > 'Operation Green Hunt',  in any war, armed men in uniform in a combat > zone are fair targets. The death of the 76 CRPF jawans, though > regrettable, is not in any way different from the death of any > guerrila soldiers in the PLGA in any combat operation. I refuse to be > blackmailed into thinking of such an event as an evidence of Maoist > 'atrocities'. > > But by no stretch of imagination can the same principles of combat be > extended in operations that involve unarmed civilians, (such as the > incidents that have come to light today) no matter who conducts them. > Regardless of whether the state or the Maoists conduct such > operations, they must be condemned by all sensible people in the > harshest terms. The Maoists, and the state must be compelled, through > relentless civic pressure, to publicly abide by the Geneva > Conventions in the matter on the treatment of non-combatants in a > conflict situation. (And yes, there are conventions that shape the > conduct of non-state actors, or the conduct of the state in relation > to non-state actors) > > The presence of 15 special police officers in the bus that was bombed > cannot be offered as a justification for the bombing, because a large > number of people who were harmed in the attack had nothing to do with > any arm of the state, they were just ordinary passengers. This is a > simple and disgusting act of terrorism. It cannot be explained away > in any sense as part of a campaign of liberation. > > If it is true that these attacks have been carried out by the > Maoists, then, it is clear that they want to ratchet up the general > intensity of violence in the regions where they have a presence. They > want the government to unleash a military style offensive, because > nothing would serve their purpose better. There can be no other > explanation for the manner of these attacks. This is a disastrous and > cynical policy, which will wreck havoc with the lives of the people > of the area and cannot be justified by any means whatsoever. If the > government of India responds by increasing the level and intensity of > the conflict, it will become an accessory of the Maoists design to > totally militarize the areas of central, southern and eastern India > where they currently have a presence. > > If nothing else, this shows how the policy of 'Protracted People's > War' is bound to degenerate (and in fact is already degenerating) > into an orgy of random violence, exactly as it did in Peru and > Colombia, where the 'Sendero Luminoso' ('Shining Path') and 'FARC' > rebels competed with the state and right-wing militias in a sad > spiralling descent into armed chaos and brigandage that did nothing > to fulfil any revolutionary goal. If anything it strengthened the > might of the state and the right wing militias in Peru and Colombia. > The Maoists actions (attacks on unarmed civilians) cannot bring about > any other results either. The ultimate and only beneficiary of this > process will be the state and the corporations who want total control > over the forests of Central India. > > However, we must not rush to conclusions. If the Maoists disclaim > responsibility for these attacks, then we will have to see whether or > not such a disclaimer has any objective basis. Independent > investigations will have to be carrired out. If, by any means, it is > possible that these attacks are 'false flag' operations, conducted by > rogue elements of the state machinery, or even endorsed by the state, > then the responsibility for the violence will lie squarely on the > state. It must, however, be understood by the Maoists (even if they > have not perpetrated these massacres) that the style of their > politics can and does ennable the state to conduct precisely such > 'false flag' operations. If there are any amongst the leadership of > the Maoists who are sensitive to the possibilities of forging an > alternative radical politics they must begin considering the > necessity of abandoning the disastrous method of 'protracted peoples > war' and explore ways to an open, transparent, militant and public > politics that does not involve the endless cycle of retreats and > massacres. > > Wherever the truth may life, this is a very sad day indeed, > > best > > Shuddha > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From oishiksircar at gmail.com Tue May 18 12:20:19 2010 From: oishiksircar at gmail.com (OISHIK SIRCAR) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 12:20:19 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] URGENT: Studies on Mumbai 'Slum' Rehabilitation Message-ID: Hi: Can anyone please provide references to any studies available on rehabilitation schemes for Mumbai 'slums', esp. Dharavi -- which specifically point at the fact the people don't want to move out of the 'slum' spaces because of the thriving 'informal' economy there -- and that rehabilitation is a state mechanism to introduce regulation and surveillance of 'slum' populations. Are there any studies on these or similar lines? -- OISHIK SIRCAR oishiksircar at gmail.com oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca From ujwalasam at gmail.com Tue May 18 12:29:28 2010 From: ujwalasam at gmail.com (Ujwala Samarth) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 12:29:28 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Alternative management practices Message-ID: Open Space, Pune is looking for suggestions of sites in Maharashtra, where management students could interact with people involved in successful and innovative ethical business practices -- new models of micro-finance, urban cooperatives, self-help schemes or alternative (green) small businesses. We would appreciate any help and suggestions. -- Ujwala Samarth (Programme Coordinator, Open Space) www.openspaceindia.org www.infochangeindia.org http://www.facebook.com/pages/Open-Space/116557125037041 B-301, Kanchanjunga Building, Kanchan Lane, Off Law College Rd,, Pune 411004 (020-25457371) From shashidhar at butterfliesindia.org Tue May 18 13:40:06 2010 From: shashidhar at butterfliesindia.org (Shashidhar) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 13:40:06 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Alternative management practices In-Reply-To: <5FF7090C56B744B5B34A375D1BAE451B@butterfliesdelhi.local> References: <5FF7090C56B744B5B34A375D1BAE451B@butterfliesdelhi.local> Message-ID: <001001caf661$86cb6e20$94624a60$@butterfliesindia.org> AFARM, SOPPECOM, GOMUKH, KKPKP ( The best if you ask me), LIJJAT Papad, there are so many sugar cooperatives closest being "theur", these are all in pune. Shashi - if I think of some more I shall post them -----Original Message----- From: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net [mailto:reader-list-bounces at sarai.net] On Behalf Of Ujwala Samarth Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2010 12:46 PM To: reader-list at sarai.net Subject: [Reader-list] Alternative management practices Open Space, Pune is looking for suggestions of sites in Maharashtra, where management students could interact with people involved in successful and innovative ethical business practices -- new models of micro-finance, urban cooperatives, self-help schemes or alternative (green) small businesses. We would appreciate any help and suggestions. -- Ujwala Samarth (Programme Coordinator, Open Space) www.openspaceindia.org www.infochangeindia.org http://www.facebook.com/pages/Open-Space/116557125037041 B-301, Kanchanjunga Building, Kanchan Lane, Off Law College Rd,, Pune 411004 (020-25457371) _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From dnyan21 at yahoo.com Tue May 18 14:29:11 2010 From: dnyan21 at yahoo.com (Ashutosh Shyam Potdar) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 01:59:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] URGENT: Studies on Mumbai 'Slum' Rehabilitation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <705864.35021.qm@web30705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Shrikant Agwane has made an interesting documentary film on Dharavi. However, I am not sure if the film provides what you need. You may contact him on mydharavi at gmail.com. I know he has done a lot of research. Best, Ashutosh ________________________________ From: OISHIK SIRCAR To: sarai list ; Zainab Bawa Sent: Tue, May 18, 2010 12:20:19 PM Subject: [Reader-list] URGENT: Studies on Mumbai 'Slum' Rehabilitation Hi: Can anyone please provide references to any studies available on rehabilitation schemes for Mumbai 'slums', esp. Dharavi -- which specifically point at the fact the people don't want to move out of the 'slum' spaces because of the thriving 'informal' economy there -- and that rehabilitation is a state mechanism to introduce regulation and surveillance of 'slum' populations. Are there any studies on these or similar lines? -- OISHIK SIRCAR oishiksircar at gmail.com oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From nagraj.adve at gmail.com Tue May 18 16:02:51 2010 From: nagraj.adve at gmail.com (Nagraj Adve) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 16:02:51 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] imports and emissions Message-ID: This abstract from this paper by Davis and Caldeira suggest how much imports and exports skew 'national' data on emissions and how much consumption (and of course class) is one key factor). Naga Consumption-based accounting of CO2 emissions 1. Steven J. Davis1 and 2. Ken Caldeira Abstract CO2 emissions from the burning of fossil fuels are the primary cause of global warming. Much attention has been focused on the CO2 directly emitted by each country, but relatively little attention has been paid to the amount of emissions associated with the consumption of goods and services in each country. Consumption-based accounting of CO2 emissions differs from traditional, production-based inventories because of imports and exports of goods and services that, either directly or indirectly, involve CO2 emissions. Here, using the latest available data, we present a global consumption-based CO2 emissions inventory and calculations of associated consumption-based energy and carbon intensities. We find that, in 2004, 23% of global CO2 emissions, or 6.2 gigatonnes CO2, were traded internationally, primarily as exports from China and other emerging markets to consumers in developed countries. In some wealthy countries, including Switzerland, Sweden, Austria, the United Kingdom, and France, >30% of consumption-based emissions were imported, with net imports to many Europeans of >4 tons CO2 per person in 2004. Net import of emissions to the United States in the same year was somewhat less: 10.8% of total consumption-based emissions and 2.4 tons CO2 per person. In contrast, 22.5% of the emissions produced in China in 2004 were exported, on net, to consumers elsewhere. Consumption-based accounting of CO2 emissions demonstrates the potential for international carbon leakage. Sharing responsibility for emissions among producers and consumers could facilitate international agreement on global climate policy that is now hindered by concerns over the regional and historical inequity of emissions. From nagraj.adve at gmail.com Tue May 18 16:49:24 2010 From: nagraj.adve at gmail.com (Nagraj Adve) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 16:49:24 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: EKTA on Massacre of Civilians by Maoist Insurgents in Chhattisgarh and State Response In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Sukla Sen Date: 18 May 2010 16:41 Subject: EKTA on Massacre of Civilians by Maoist Insurgents in Chhattisgarh and State Response EKTA (Committee for Communal Amity), Mumbai hereby strongly condemns the lethal attack by the Maoist insurgents yesterday afternoon on a private bus at Chingavaram on the Dantewada-Sukhma road in Chhattisgarh in an overly successful bid to kill a group of traveling armed Special Police Officers (SPOSs) - adivasi youths recruited to battle Maoist insurgency in the state, with the full knowledge that the bus was carrying also a large number of unarmed civilian passengers taking no part in the ongoing armed conflicts between the insurgents and the state. This is morally utterly repulsive. We also, on this note, strongly disapprove the brutal summary executions of unarmed civilians, including adivasis and other sections of the poor and marginalized, by the Maoists tagging them as “informer”. At the same time, we also take note of the fact that a large group of SPOs, maybe around 20, elected to travel by a bus full of civilian passengers, plying through an area known to be prone to mine blasts and other forms of armed assaults by the Maoists, despite the fact they are engaged in an open and no holds barred war with the insurgents, killing each other at the first available opportunity. This amounts to virtually holding the civilian passengers as helpless hostage and trying to use them as human shield for their own safety. It is also just unacceptable. While on this orgy of gory violence, the reflexive cry of Sri Chidambaram in the wake of these tragic murders for more of the same (failed measures), asking for an “expanded mandate” i.e. permission to use air strikes against the insurgents operating in an area with deep forest covers and sheltering for ages large number of adivasi inhabitants is also unacceptably disturbing. So is his vituperative verbal assault on civil society groups committed to uphold democratic values and norms so as to cover up his own dismal performance as the Union Home Minister. The fact that the detailed recommendations made by a body of recognised experts appointed by no less than the Planning Commission of India to tackle Maoist insurgency have gone completely unheeded despite persistent failures of the tried and tested repressive measures deserves close attention. On this note, we also strongly condemn Odisha government’s armed assaults on unarmed civilian resistors protesting against proposed mega projects by the Posco, and also Tata, Vedanta etc., overriding all ecological, social, and also legal, considerations. It seems that the state is bent upon sending the message, in unison with the insurgents, that in Indian democracy peaceful protests have no reasonable chance of being heard and the only way out is armed banditry. At the end, we again appeal to the warring parties to immediately come to the negotiating table and eschew blood spilling violence. Obviously the “democratic” state has a greater responsibility and just cannot afford to emulate a band of armed outlaws. The sate must also immediately have an authentic and thoughtful relook at the “strategy” being pursued hitherto by it and make serious attempts to initiate inclusive and participatory development to better the lot of the marginalised adivasi populations, in particular - the main constituency of the insurgents, to cut them off from their principal support base. Mindless armed action will only bring in more and more tragedies it its wake. An internal disturbance fuelled by an overpowering sense of alienation felt by a significant section of the population born out of desperate poverty and cruel oppressions cannot be and must not be tackled the way a war is waged against a clearly identified uniformed external enemy. Sukla Sen for EKTA (Committee for Communal Amity), Mumbai 18 05 2010 From shuddha at sarai.net Tue May 18 16:53:07 2010 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 16:53:07 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: EKTA on Massacre of Civilians by Maoist Insurgents in Chhattisgarh and State Response In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <294F9C92-3355-4E55-9340-574C3C8B4BE1@sarai.net> Dear Nagraj, Thanks for posting this. best, Shuddha On 18-May-10, at 4:49 PM, Nagraj Adve wrote: > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Sukla Sen > Date: 18 May 2010 16:41 > Subject: EKTA on Massacre of Civilians by Maoist Insurgents in > Chhattisgarh and State Response > > EKTA (Committee for Communal Amity), Mumbai hereby strongly condemns > the lethal attack by the Maoist insurgents yesterday afternoon on a > private bus at Chingavaram on the Dantewada-Sukhma road in > Chhattisgarh in an overly successful bid to kill a group of traveling > armed Special Police Officers (SPOSs) - adivasi youths recruited to > battle Maoist insurgency in the state, with the full knowledge that > the bus was carrying also a large number of unarmed civilian > passengers taking no part in the ongoing armed conflicts between the > insurgents and the state. This is morally utterly repulsive. > We also, on this note, strongly disapprove the brutal summary > executions of unarmed civilians, including adivasis and other sections > of the poor and marginalized, by the Maoists tagging them as > “informer”. > At the same time, we also take note of the fact that a large group of > SPOs, maybe around 20, elected to travel by a bus full of civilian > passengers, plying through an area known to be prone to mine blasts > and other forms of armed assaults by the Maoists, despite the fact > they are engaged in an open and no holds barred war with the > insurgents, killing each other at the first available opportunity. > This amounts to virtually holding the civilian passengers as helpless > hostage and trying to use them as human shield for their own safety. > It is also just unacceptable. > While on this orgy of gory violence, the reflexive cry of Sri > Chidambaram in the wake of these tragic murders for more of the same > (failed measures), asking for an “expanded mandate” i.e. permission to > use air strikes against the insurgents operating in an area with deep > forest covers and sheltering for ages large number of adivasi > inhabitants is also unacceptably disturbing. So is his vituperative > verbal assault on civil society groups committed to uphold democratic > values and norms so as to cover up his own dismal performance as the > Union Home Minister. > The fact that the detailed recommendations made by a body of > recognised experts appointed by no less than the Planning Commission > of India to tackle Maoist insurgency have gone completely unheeded > despite persistent failures of the tried and tested repressive > measures deserves close attention. > On this note, we also strongly condemn Odisha government’s armed > assaults on unarmed civilian resistors protesting against proposed > mega projects by the Posco, and also Tata, Vedanta etc., overriding > all ecological, social, and also legal, considerations. > It seems that the state is bent upon sending the message, in unison > with the insurgents, that in Indian democracy peaceful protests have > no reasonable chance of being heard and the only way out is armed > banditry. > At the end, we again appeal to the warring parties to immediately come > to the negotiating table and eschew blood spilling violence. Obviously > the “democratic” state has a greater responsibility and just cannot > afford to emulate a band of armed outlaws. > The sate must also immediately have an authentic and thoughtful relook > at the “strategy” being pursued hitherto by it and make serious > attempts to initiate inclusive and participatory development to better > the lot of the marginalised adivasi populations, in particular - the > main constituency of the insurgents, to cut them off from their > principal support base. > Mindless armed action will only bring in more and more tragedies it > its wake. > An internal disturbance fuelled by an overpowering sense of alienation > felt by a significant section of the population born out of desperate > poverty and cruel oppressions cannot be and must not be tackled the > way a war is waged against a clearly identified uniformed external > enemy. > Sukla Sen > for EKTA (Committee for Communal Amity), Mumbai > 18 05 2010 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Tue May 18 17:44:10 2010 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 17:44:10 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] MHA finally accepts, CPI (M) has links with Kashmir separatists Message-ID: Pro-Maoist groups under close watch of home ministry*New Delhi, May 18 (IANS)* At least 57 civil rights groups, trade unions and student organisations as well as the Hurriyat Conference are under the constant vigil of intelligence agencies for their alleged links with the outlawed Communist Party of India-Maoist, according to an official document. A home ministry circular alerts heads of paramilitary forces and police in Maoist-affected states that the CPI-Maoist has 57 “front bodies” of peasants, labourers, women, students, tribals and trade unions who have helped the banned outfit raise the level of its tactical warfare, including winning court battles and getting their arrested leaders released. The circular, according to sources, was sent out days before the home ministry in a stringent warning to civil society groups said that those who speak in favour of Maoist guerrillas will face legal action and 10 years’ imprisonment under Section 39 of the Unlawful Activities (Prevention) Act, 1967. The home ministry on April 6 said the government had noticed that some Maoist leaders were directly contacting certain NGOs and intellectuals to propagate their ideology and “persuade them to take steps (and) support the CPI-Maoist ideology”. The circular from the Intelligence Bureau says that about 30 of these organisations were actively involved in popularising the Maoist ideology also in the states that are not affected by Left-wing extremism, like the national capital region, Uttar Pradesh, Gujarat, Kerala, Tamil Nadu and Haryana, an official said, requesting not to be named. Among the groups being watched include People’s Union for Civil Liberties (PUCL) that has Justice (retd) Rajinder Sachar as one of its key members. The group was formed in 1976 by Jai Prakash Narain. The others being closely watched are the Krantikari Lok Adhikar Aangathan of Uttarakhand, the Revolutionary People’s Front of Kerala, the Chhattisgarh Mukti Morcha, a political party that has fielded candidates for the Madhya Pradesh elections, the Disha Sanskritik Manch of Haryana and the Bandi Mukti Committee of West Bengal. The official said that these organisations, according to the IB circular, were “working for the cause of the Maoists”. “It is after these front bodies have done the groundwork that the armed activity (of the CPI-Maoist) would start. These organisations supplement the war effort of the party,” the circular claims, apprehending that the guerrillas may launch more “well-planned and focussed” attacks outside their strongholds in Chhattisgarh, Orissa, West Bengal and other affected states. The Leftist guerrillas, according to the IB, are also planning to reach out to other terrorist and separatist groups in the country including the United Liberation Front of Asom and the Hurriyat Conference in Jammu and Kashmir. “Though the intelligence inputs don’t suggest any strategic alliance but Maoists have started corresponding with them,” said the official. From rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com Tue May 18 18:09:43 2010 From: rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com (Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 18:09:43 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Alleged Maoist Atrocities In-Reply-To: <26C997A3-93AB-4D7B-BF5C-0752EE6402DD@sarai.net> References: <26C997A3-93AB-4D7B-BF5C-0752EE6402DD@sarai.net> Message-ID: Dear Shuddha, how intellect can be lulled by your post to think that maosists are genuinely working for the poor, under privileged and tribals, indeed, it is posts like these which deflect the disgust against the atrocities of naxalites. Your words, "The presence of 15 special police officers in the bus that was bombed cannot be offered as a justification for the bombing, because a large number of people who were harmed in the attack had nothing to do with any arm of the state, they were just ordinary passengers. This is a simple and disgusting act of terrorism. It cannot be explained away in any sense as part of a campaign of liberation." Are the special police officers not the citizens of this nation, who are employed by the stste to maintain law and order and to contain the deviants.?Have they got no families , wife and children, for whom they are toiling in dangerous terrains of deviant domination.? Naxalites have only one goal, to capture power for the leadership and their sympathisers, who are cowards, who can not contest any election and seek public mandate, nor are they having guts to own the actions, unlike a Bhagath singh whom they invoke when caught, for BHAGATH Singh did not run away and hide, faced the system, went thru the trial and prosecution, claimed if he is born again, he will again act the same way of actions to seek freedom for the society and nation from the british rule. look at the Kobads and varavara, who live in hiding, meet only "friendly' journalists and order executions of "informers." Naxalites killing the innocents is not stste action of act against deviants, if they want, they can change the "system" by democratic process but not by violence, if they do not understand that they are the deviants in the democratic rule of laws, deserve the prosecution by apprehending of the deviants.Naxalites have used the words of war and enemy not the state, rule of laws in democracy demands that the deviants be brought under the contained deviation, if necessary by force in the present circumstances, as rabids have to be put to sleep, so are the naxals and such deviants. regards, rajen On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 9:50 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > Dear All, > > While I have on several occasions expressed my disgust at the way in > which the Government of India is conducting it's 'Operation Green > Hunt', I have to say that the news of the attacks by alleged Maoists > in Chattisgarh, in which 6 villagers have been killed, and more > recently a bus, with several civilians (and some special police > officers) has been bombed, is deeply disturbing. > > It is a totally different matter from attacking men in uniform, (such > as the CRPF jawans who were attacked not so long ago, resulting in 76 > casualties). Though I do not support any war, including the Maoist > initiated 'Peoples War' or for that matter, the Government of India's > 'Operation Green Hunt', in any war, armed men in uniform in a combat > zone are fair targets. The death of the 76 CRPF jawans, though > regrettable, is not in any way different from the death of any > guerrila soldiers in the PLGA in any combat operation. I refuse to be > blackmailed into thinking of such an event as an evidence of Maoist > 'atrocities'. > > But by no stretch of imagination can the same principles of combat be > extended in operations that involve unarmed civilians, (such as the > incidents that have come to light today) no matter who conducts them. > Regardless of whether the state or the Maoists conduct such > operations, they must be condemned by all sensible people in the > harshest terms. The Maoists, and the state must be compelled, through > relentless civic pressure, to publicly abide by the Geneva > Conventions in the matter on the treatment of non-combatants in a > conflict situation. (And yes, there are conventions that shape the > conduct of non-state actors, or the conduct of the state in relation > to non-state actors) > > The presence of 15 special police officers in the bus that was bombed > cannot be offered as a justification for the bombing, because a large > number of people who were harmed in the attack had nothing to do with > any arm of the state, they were just ordinary passengers. This is a > simple and disgusting act of terrorism. It cannot be explained away > in any sense as part of a campaign of liberation. > > If it is true that these attacks have been carried out by the > Maoists, then, it is clear that they want to ratchet up the general > intensity of violence in the regions where they have a presence. They > want the government to unleash a military style offensive, because > nothing would serve their purpose better. There can be no other > explanation for the manner of these attacks. This is a disastrous and > cynical policy, which will wreck havoc with the lives of the people > of the area and cannot be justified by any means whatsoever. If the > government of India responds by increasing the level and intensity of > the conflict, it will become an accessory of the Maoists design to > totally militarize the areas of central, southern and eastern India > where they currently have a presence. > > If nothing else, this shows how the policy of 'Protracted People's > War' is bound to degenerate (and in fact is already degenerating) > into an orgy of random violence, exactly as it did in Peru and > Colombia, where the 'Sendero Luminoso' ('Shining Path') and 'FARC' > rebels competed with the state and right-wing militias in a sad > spiralling descent into armed chaos and brigandage that did nothing > to fulfil any revolutionary goal. If anything it strengthened the > might of the state and the right wing militias in Peru and Colombia. > The Maoists actions (attacks on unarmed civilians) cannot bring about > any other results either. The ultimate and only beneficiary of this > process will be the state and the corporations who want total control > over the forests of Central India. > > However, we must not rush to conclusions. If the Maoists disclaim > responsibility for these attacks, then we will have to see whether or > not such a disclaimer has any objective basis. Independent > investigations will have to be carrired out. If, by any means, it is > possible that these attacks are 'false flag' operations, conducted by > rogue elements of the state machinery, or even endorsed by the state, > then the responsibility for the violence will lie squarely on the > state. It must, however, be understood by the Maoists (even if they > have not perpetrated these massacres) that the style of their > politics can and does ennable the state to conduct precisely such > 'false flag' operations. If there are any amongst the leadership of > the Maoists who are sensitive to the possibilities of forging an > alternative radical politics they must begin considering the > necessity of abandoning the disastrous method of 'protracted peoples > war' and explore ways to an open, transparent, militant and public > politics that does not involve the endless cycle of retreats and > massacres. > > Wherever the truth may life, this is a very sad day indeed, > > best > > Shuddha > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- Rajen. From rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com Tue May 18 18:12:57 2010 From: rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com (Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 18:12:57 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Adivasis allege torture in anti-Naxal operations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: hmm, so it is your story................................................! For a better society, such stories do no good as naxals have lost all the sympathies by individuals like me, who once used to feel that the system hears only when blood flows., not tears.But now it is better wisdom that blood begets more of it. regards, rajen On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 8:34 AM, Aman Sethi wrote: > Dear all, > A story that I did for The Hindu, but that I dont think was carried in > all editions: > http://beta.thehindu.com/news/states/article432549.ece > best > a/ > > Adivasis allege torture in anti-Naxal operations > > Seventeen Adivasi villagers of Samna in Orissa's Narayanpatna block > claim that they were brutally assaulted in custody last week, an > allegation the police have denied. > > According to the villagers, they were picked up on May 9, as part of a > joint operation conducted by the Orissa and Andhra Pradesh police > along the inter-State border, airlifted to a police station in Andhra > Pradesh and held in custody for three days before being released on > May 14. > > “Uniformed policemen surrounded our village on Sunday morning [May 9], > when we were leaving for the market,” said Nachika Jaddo, one of those > who were picked up. “Seventeen men, including two dokras [old men] > were rounded up, beaten up and then dragged to a spot 2 km away.” > > The villagers were then bundled into a waiting helicopter, blindfolded > and flown to the Salur police station in Vizianagaram district of > Andhra Pradesh. “They tied our hands behind our back and repeatedly > struck us with lathis,” said another victim, who had bruises all over > the back and shoulders. “They kept asking us about Maoists, but we > couldn't understand what they were saying.” > > Most of the Adivasis along the Orissa-Andhra Pradesh border speak > Kondi — an Adivasi dialect — and are often unable to communicate with > those outside their tribe. “They spoke to us in Hindi, Oriya and > Telugu, and when we couldn't answer, they hit us all over, including > on the soles of our feet,” said a third victim. > > In all, The Hindu interviewed four of the 17 victims, including > 60-year-old Nachika Chuchai, with the help of a translator. > > Koraput Superintendent of Police Anup Kumar Sahoo confirmed that 17 > villagers had been detained for questioning, but denied that they were > beaten up or airlifted. “These 17 men were found in the forest on May > 9 near the site of an encounter between security forces and the > Maoists.” They were then taken to Andhra Pradesh on foot, which took > almost three days.” The villagers were immediately produced before a > district magistrate in Salur and released on May 14. None was formally > arrested, the SP said. > > Informed sources in the Andhra police suggest that the villagers might > have been picked up as part of a much larger exercise. According to > the sources, the police operation was planned when the Andhra Pradesh > police received information that members of the Kalimela Dalam, > involved in the killing of 38 security force members at Chitrakonda in > 2008, were moving through the Narayanpatna jungles. > > On May 9, 2010, there was an exchange of fire between Maoists and the > security forces. The local press reported police sources as claiming > that up to 10 Maoists were killed. However, not a single body has been > recovered as yet. The 17 villagers were picked up, soon after the > skirmishes. According to the sources, the villagers were immediately > airlifted to Salur, where they were interrogated for information on > the movement of Maoist companies in Narayanpatna and subsequently > released. > > Intelligence sources told The Hindu that Chhattisgarh, Orissa, Andhra > Pradesh and Maharashtra share a set of Mi-17 helicopters which can > carry up to 32 passengers. The sources, however, declined to provide > the exact number of helicopters for reasons of operational security. > > Those detained were Nachika Jaddo, Nachika Musri, Nachika Lachna, > Nachika Sudru, Nachika Sehra, Nachika Nando, Nachika Roopa, Nachika > Sonna, Nachika Porda/Podda, Nachika Kuslu, Nachika Abhi, Nachika > Lassu, Nachika Dora and Nachika Chuchai (both above 60), Nachika > Subana, Nachika Johra and Nachika Kumlu. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Rajen. From c.anupam at gmail.com Tue May 18 18:18:52 2010 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 18:18:52 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Adivasis allege torture in anti-Naxal operations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: for a better society we need an right wing ideologue to spew venom against indigenous communities, spread hateful communal agendas on forums, question peoples' identity by dissecting their religious beliefs, inciting people to react. isnt Rajen? On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 6:12 PM, Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi < rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com> wrote: > hmm, so it is your story................................................! > For a better society, such stories do no good as naxals have lost all the > sympathies by individuals like me, who once used to feel that the system > hears only when blood flows., not tears.But now it is better wisdom that > blood begets more of it. > regards, > rajen > > On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 8:34 AM, Aman Sethi wrote: > > > Dear all, > > A story that I did for The Hindu, but that I dont think was carried in > > all editions: > > http://beta.thehindu.com/news/states/article432549.ece > > best > > a/ > > > > Adivasis allege torture in anti-Naxal operations > > > > Seventeen Adivasi villagers of Samna in Orissa's Narayanpatna block > > claim that they were brutally assaulted in custody last week, an > > allegation the police have denied. > > > > According to the villagers, they were picked up on May 9, as part of a > > joint operation conducted by the Orissa and Andhra Pradesh police > > along the inter-State border, airlifted to a police station in Andhra > > Pradesh and held in custody for three days before being released on > > May 14. > > > > “Uniformed policemen surrounded our village on Sunday morning [May 9], > > when we were leaving for the market,” said Nachika Jaddo, one of those > > who were picked up. “Seventeen men, including two dokras [old men] > > were rounded up, beaten up and then dragged to a spot 2 km away.” > > > > The villagers were then bundled into a waiting helicopter, blindfolded > > and flown to the Salur police station in Vizianagaram district of > > Andhra Pradesh. “They tied our hands behind our back and repeatedly > > struck us with lathis,” said another victim, who had bruises all over > > the back and shoulders. “They kept asking us about Maoists, but we > > couldn't understand what they were saying.” > > > > Most of the Adivasis along the Orissa-Andhra Pradesh border speak > > Kondi — an Adivasi dialect — and are often unable to communicate with > > those outside their tribe. “They spoke to us in Hindi, Oriya and > > Telugu, and when we couldn't answer, they hit us all over, including > > on the soles of our feet,” said a third victim. > > > > In all, The Hindu interviewed four of the 17 victims, including > > 60-year-old Nachika Chuchai, with the help of a translator. > > > > Koraput Superintendent of Police Anup Kumar Sahoo confirmed that 17 > > villagers had been detained for questioning, but denied that they were > > beaten up or airlifted. “These 17 men were found in the forest on May > > 9 near the site of an encounter between security forces and the > > Maoists.” They were then taken to Andhra Pradesh on foot, which took > > almost three days.” The villagers were immediately produced before a > > district magistrate in Salur and released on May 14. None was formally > > arrested, the SP said. > > > > Informed sources in the Andhra police suggest that the villagers might > > have been picked up as part of a much larger exercise. According to > > the sources, the police operation was planned when the Andhra Pradesh > > police received information that members of the Kalimela Dalam, > > involved in the killing of 38 security force members at Chitrakonda in > > 2008, were moving through the Narayanpatna jungles. > > > > On May 9, 2010, there was an exchange of fire between Maoists and the > > security forces. The local press reported police sources as claiming > > that up to 10 Maoists were killed. However, not a single body has been > > recovered as yet. The 17 villagers were picked up, soon after the > > skirmishes. According to the sources, the villagers were immediately > > airlifted to Salur, where they were interrogated for information on > > the movement of Maoist companies in Narayanpatna and subsequently > > released. > > > > Intelligence sources told The Hindu that Chhattisgarh, Orissa, Andhra > > Pradesh and Maharashtra share a set of Mi-17 helicopters which can > > carry up to 32 passengers. The sources, however, declined to provide > > the exact number of helicopters for reasons of operational security. > > > > Those detained were Nachika Jaddo, Nachika Musri, Nachika Lachna, > > Nachika Sudru, Nachika Sehra, Nachika Nando, Nachika Roopa, Nachika > > Sonna, Nachika Porda/Podda, Nachika Kuslu, Nachika Abhi, Nachika > > Lassu, Nachika Dora and Nachika Chuchai (both above 60), Nachika > > Subana, Nachika Johra and Nachika Kumlu. > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > -- > Rajen. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com Tue May 18 18:23:35 2010 From: rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com (Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 18:23:35 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Adivasis allege torture in anti-Naxal operations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: How deviant one can be even in understanding the rep[lies of one while digesting the contents of the post. ! Listen, buddy, for me rule of laws is supreme, not any faith or religion, which is my private domain, for me, it is my faith is in huanity, belief is to be humane.Good governance stems only from delivery of good to each and every citizen irrespective of his faith, caste, region or religion.All faiths have no role in rule of laws. regards, rajen. On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 6:18 PM, anupam chakravartty wrote: > for a better society we need an right wing ideologue to spew venom against > indigenous communities, spread hateful communal agendas on forums, question > peoples' identity by dissecting their religious beliefs, inciting people to > react. isnt Rajen? > > > > On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 6:12 PM, Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi < > rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com> wrote: > >> hmm, so it is your story................................................! >> For a better society, such stories do no good as naxals have lost all the >> sympathies by individuals like me, who once used to feel that the system >> hears only when blood flows., not tears.But now it is better wisdom that >> blood begets more of it. >> regards, >> rajen >> >> On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 8:34 AM, Aman Sethi wrote: >> >> > Dear all, >> > A story that I did for The Hindu, but that I dont think was carried in >> > all editions: >> > http://beta.thehindu.com/news/states/article432549.ece >> > best >> > a/ >> > >> > Adivasis allege torture in anti-Naxal operations >> > >> > Seventeen Adivasi villagers of Samna in Orissa's Narayanpatna block >> > claim that they were brutally assaulted in custody last week, an >> > allegation the police have denied. >> > >> > According to the villagers, they were picked up on May 9, as part of a >> > joint operation conducted by the Orissa and Andhra Pradesh police >> > along the inter-State border, airlifted to a police station in Andhra >> > Pradesh and held in custody for three days before being released on >> > May 14. >> > >> > “Uniformed policemen surrounded our village on Sunday morning [May 9], >> > when we were leaving for the market,” said Nachika Jaddo, one of those >> > who were picked up. “Seventeen men, including two dokras [old men] >> > were rounded up, beaten up and then dragged to a spot 2 km away.” >> > >> > The villagers were then bundled into a waiting helicopter, blindfolded >> > and flown to the Salur police station in Vizianagaram district of >> > Andhra Pradesh. “They tied our hands behind our back and repeatedly >> > struck us with lathis,” said another victim, who had bruises all over >> > the back and shoulders. “They kept asking us about Maoists, but we >> > couldn't understand what they were saying.” >> > >> > Most of the Adivasis along the Orissa-Andhra Pradesh border speak >> > Kondi — an Adivasi dialect — and are often unable to communicate with >> > those outside their tribe. “They spoke to us in Hindi, Oriya and >> > Telugu, and when we couldn't answer, they hit us all over, including >> > on the soles of our feet,” said a third victim. >> > >> > In all, The Hindu interviewed four of the 17 victims, including >> > 60-year-old Nachika Chuchai, with the help of a translator. >> > >> > Koraput Superintendent of Police Anup Kumar Sahoo confirmed that 17 >> > villagers had been detained for questioning, but denied that they were >> > beaten up or airlifted. “These 17 men were found in the forest on May >> > 9 near the site of an encounter between security forces and the >> > Maoists.” They were then taken to Andhra Pradesh on foot, which took >> > almost three days.” The villagers were immediately produced before a >> > district magistrate in Salur and released on May 14. None was formally >> > arrested, the SP said. >> > >> > Informed sources in the Andhra police suggest that the villagers might >> > have been picked up as part of a much larger exercise. According to >> > the sources, the police operation was planned when the Andhra Pradesh >> > police received information that members of the Kalimela Dalam, >> > involved in the killing of 38 security force members at Chitrakonda in >> > 2008, were moving through the Narayanpatna jungles. >> > >> > On May 9, 2010, there was an exchange of fire between Maoists and the >> > security forces. The local press reported police sources as claiming >> > that up to 10 Maoists were killed. However, not a single body has been >> > recovered as yet. The 17 villagers were picked up, soon after the >> > skirmishes. According to the sources, the villagers were immediately >> > airlifted to Salur, where they were interrogated for information on >> > the movement of Maoist companies in Narayanpatna and subsequently >> > released. >> > >> > Intelligence sources told The Hindu that Chhattisgarh, Orissa, Andhra >> > Pradesh and Maharashtra share a set of Mi-17 helicopters which can >> > carry up to 32 passengers. The sources, however, declined to provide >> > the exact number of helicopters for reasons of operational security. >> > >> > Those detained were Nachika Jaddo, Nachika Musri, Nachika Lachna, >> > Nachika Sudru, Nachika Sehra, Nachika Nando, Nachika Roopa, Nachika >> > Sonna, Nachika Porda/Podda, Nachika Kuslu, Nachika Abhi, Nachika >> > Lassu, Nachika Dora and Nachika Chuchai (both above 60), Nachika >> > Subana, Nachika Johra and Nachika Kumlu. >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Rajen. >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > -- Rajen. From shuddha at sarai.net Tue May 18 18:21:46 2010 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 18:21:46 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Alleged Maoist Atrocities In-Reply-To: References: <26C997A3-93AB-4D7B-BF5C-0752EE6402DD@sarai.net> Message-ID: Dear Pawan, What motives are you talking about? The only ones that I can see in my posting are a clear and categorical criticism and denunciation of the CPI (Maoist)'s cult of death and a clear, unambiguous criticism with the way in which the state is reacting to the situation. Do you see anything else? I don't have to embrace the devil in order to rescue myself from the deep blue sea. Having said that, I am not blind to the fact that the Indian state (or rogue elements from within the state apparatus) have on occasion resorted to elaborate masquerades to create sensational events that bind popular consensus in favour of a hard-line course of action. Remember a place called Cchattisinghpura? Remember what happened there just around the time when Bill Clinton came visiting? ast I knew, It was in the province that you claim as your homeland. The questions around Cchatisinghpura still remain, and they will not be covered up merely because the state was able to extract a 'custodial confession' from an alleged 'detained militant'. What happened routinely in Jammu & Kashmir (especially as authored by the notorious 'Ikhwanis', the Kashmiri equivalent of the Salwa Judum) can easily happen elsewhere. This possibility cannot be ruled out, although it must not be seen as the only valid explanation either. We need neither blind faith in the goodness of the Indian state, nor elaborate conspiracy theories, that indict it in every tragedy. What we need are hard facts. And until the facts are crystal clear, or are made clear through explicit assumptions of responsibility by the Maoists themselves of these massacres,or through their implied assent through silence to the fact that they were indeed the perpetrators, it would be premature to jump to conclusions in any direction. You might have noticed, that despite my aversion towards Hindutva, I have never, ever made capital out of the fact that certain Hindutva activists have been implicated in a series of terrorist incidents. My attitude to any event of this nature, is, we must not judge a person to be guilty until he is comprehensively proven not to be innocent. If the Maoists remain silent, or own up to their authorship of the last round of violence, (as they did, unhesitatingly, in the case of the killing of the 76 CRPF jawans last month) then of course the recent massacres can be unambiguously attributed to them. And this must be condemned. If they don't, if they say that they had no hand in what has happened. Then it is a different story altogether. It calls for a different kind of response. Not necessarily of endorsing Maoist politics, but of recognizing that maybe, they too might be targets of slander. Even in that instance, as I have pointed out, with absolute clarity, the politics of of the Maoists could still be held responsible for creating the climate of violence that enables such incidents to occur. And I have no problem in accusing the Maoists of an irresponsible form of politics. it is just that I have exactly the same attitude towards the Indian state. I will not jump from treetops saying that the state staged a 'false flag' operation. I will not jump from tree- tops saying the Maoists are beasts either. I would look very carefully into the details of a very messy war. I am merely asking that all of us undertake a responsibility to being committed to this 'carefulness'. If you saw this morning's post on this list by Aman Sethi of a news story on allegations that adivasis were airlifted, abducted and tortured in the name of anti-Naxal operations you would no doubt realize that we are not operating in a situation where there are good guys and bad guys, what we have on the ground are just guys with IEDs and guys with Helicopters. I don't hide behind a fig leaf of a justification of the Maoists when I am critical of the state, but I see that for many who are ratcheting up the tempo of paranoia in the name of hunting down anyone who is critical of state action as being automatically a Maoist or at best a Maoist sympathizer, there seems to be no problem at all in hiding behind the obscenity of a war carried out by the state against its own citizenry. I find the double standard of crying yourself hoarse against Maoist sympathizers and remaining silent about the state's mandarins who provide the gloss and the icing over the state's massacres, troubling, to say the least. What compels respectable people to adopt such naked double standards? I wonder what their motives might be. I'd be grateful for any answers, if they were available. best, Shuddha On 18-May-10, at 9:12 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Irony ...... The last para tells all the motives........same people > ....same style.....like the Batla house...... > > On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 9:50 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta > wrote: >> Dear All, >> >> While I have on several occasions expressed my disgust at the way in >> which the Government of India is conducting it's 'Operation Green >> Hunt', I have to say that the news of the attacks by alleged Maoists >> in Chattisgarh, in which 6 villagers have been killed, and more >> recently a bus, with several civilians (and some special police >> officers) has been bombed, is deeply disturbing. >> >> It is a totally different matter from attacking men in uniform, (such >> as the CRPF jawans who were attacked not so long ago, resulting in 76 >> casualties). Though I do not support any war, including the Maoist >> initiated 'Peoples War' or for that matter, the Government of India's >> 'Operation Green Hunt', in any war, armed men in uniform in a combat >> zone are fair targets. The death of the 76 CRPF jawans, though >> regrettable, is not in any way different from the death of any >> guerrila soldiers in the PLGA in any combat operation. I refuse to be >> blackmailed into thinking of such an event as an evidence of Maoist >> 'atrocities'. >> >> But by no stretch of imagination can the same principles of combat be >> extended in operations that involve unarmed civilians, (such as the >> incidents that have come to light today) no matter who conducts them. >> Regardless of whether the state or the Maoists conduct such >> operations, they must be condemned by all sensible people in the >> harshest terms. The Maoists, and the state must be compelled, through >> relentless civic pressure, to publicly abide by the Geneva >> Conventions in the matter on the treatment of non-combatants in a >> conflict situation. (And yes, there are conventions that shape the >> conduct of non-state actors, or the conduct of the state in relation >> to non-state actors) >> >> The presence of 15 special police officers in the bus that was bombed >> cannot be offered as a justification for the bombing, because a large >> number of people who were harmed in the attack had nothing to do with >> any arm of the state, they were just ordinary passengers. This is a >> simple and disgusting act of terrorism. It cannot be explained away >> in any sense as part of a campaign of liberation. >> >> If it is true that these attacks have been carried out by the >> Maoists, then, it is clear that they want to ratchet up the general >> intensity of violence in the regions where they have a presence. They >> want the government to unleash a military style offensive, because >> nothing would serve their purpose better. There can be no other >> explanation for the manner of these attacks. This is a disastrous and >> cynical policy, which will wreck havoc with the lives of the people >> of the area and cannot be justified by any means whatsoever. If the >> government of India responds by increasing the level and intensity of >> the conflict, it will become an accessory of the Maoists design to >> totally militarize the areas of central, southern and eastern India >> where they currently have a presence. >> >> If nothing else, this shows how the policy of 'Protracted People's >> War' is bound to degenerate (and in fact is already degenerating) >> into an orgy of random violence, exactly as it did in Peru and >> Colombia, where the 'Sendero Luminoso' ('Shining Path') and 'FARC' >> rebels competed with the state and right-wing militias in a sad >> spiralling descent into armed chaos and brigandage that did nothing >> to fulfil any revolutionary goal. If anything it strengthened the >> might of the state and the right wing militias in Peru and Colombia. >> The Maoists actions (attacks on unarmed civilians) cannot bring about >> any other results either. The ultimate and only beneficiary of this >> process will be the state and the corporations who want total control >> over the forests of Central India. >> >> However, we must not rush to conclusions. If the Maoists disclaim >> responsibility for these attacks, then we will have to see whether or >> not such a disclaimer has any objective basis. Independent >> investigations will have to be carrired out. If, by any means, it is >> possible that these attacks are 'false flag' operations, conducted by >> rogue elements of the state machinery, or even endorsed by the state, >> then the responsibility for the violence will lie squarely on the >> state. It must, however, be understood by the Maoists (even if they >> have not perpetrated these massacres) that the style of their >> politics can and does ennable the state to conduct precisely such >> 'false flag' operations. If there are any amongst the leadership of >> the Maoists who are sensitive to the possibilities of forging an >> alternative radical politics they must begin considering the >> necessity of abandoning the disastrous method of 'protracted peoples >> war' and explore ways to an open, transparent, militant and public >> politics that does not involve the endless cycle of retreats and >> massacres. >> >> Wherever the truth may life, this is a very sad day indeed, >> >> best >> >> Shuddha >> >> >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >> Raqs Media Collective >> shuddha at sarai.net >> www.sarai.net >> www.raqsmediacollective.net >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue May 18 19:13:54 2010 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 19:13:54 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Alleged Maoist Atrocities In-Reply-To: References: <26C997A3-93AB-4D7B-BF5C-0752EE6402DD@sarai.net> Message-ID: Why do you have so much doubt in the state ? Or may I say why do you sow so much doubts ? While as you do not do the gardeners job in case of separatists, maoists etc.. Pawan On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 6:21 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > Dear Pawan, > What motives are you talking about? The only ones that I can see in my > posting are a clear and categorical criticism and denunciation of the CPI > (Maoist)'s cult of death and a clear, unambiguous criticism with the way in > which the state is reacting to the situation. Do you see anything else? I > don't have to embrace the devil  in order to rescue myself from the deep > blue sea. > Having said that, I am not blind to the fact that the Indian state (or rogue > elements from within the state apparatus) have on occasion resorted to > elaborate masquerades to create sensational events that bind popular > consensus in favour of a hard-line course of action. Remember a place called > Cchattisinghpura? Remember what happened there just around the time when > Bill Clinton came visiting? ast I knew, It was in the province that you > claim as your homeland. The questions around Cchatisinghpura still remain, > and they will not be covered up merely because the state was able to extract > a 'custodial confession' from an alleged 'detained militant'. > What happened routinely in Jammu & Kashmir (especially as authored by the > notorious 'Ikhwanis', the Kashmiri equivalent of the Salwa Judum) can easily > happen elsewhere. This possibility cannot be ruled out, although it must not > be seen as the only valid explanation either. We need neither blind faith in > the goodness of the Indian state, nor elaborate conspiracy theories, that > indict it in every tragedy. > What we need are hard facts. And until the facts are crystal clear, or are > made clear through explicit assumptions of responsibility by the Maoists > themselves of these massacres,or through their implied assent through > silence to the fact that they were indeed the perpetrators, it would be > premature to jump to conclusions in any direction. You might have noticed, > that despite my aversion towards Hindutva, I have never, ever made capital > out of the fact that certain Hindutva activists have been implicated in a > series of terrorist incidents. My attitude to any event of this nature, is, > we must not judge a person to be guilty until he is comprehensively proven > not to be innocent. > If the Maoists remain silent, or own up to their authorship of the last > round of violence, (as they did, unhesitatingly, in the case of the killing > of the 76 CRPF jawans last month) then of course the recent massacres can be > unambiguously attributed to them. And this must be condemned. > If they don't, if they say that they had no hand in what has happened. Then > it is a different story altogether. It calls for a different kind of > response. Not necessarily of endorsing Maoist politics, but of recognizing > that maybe, they too might be targets of slander. > Even in that instance, as I have pointed out, with absolute clarity, the > politics of of the Maoists could still be held responsible for creating the > climate of violence that enables such incidents to occur. And I have no > problem in accusing the Maoists of an irresponsible form of politics. it is > just that I have exactly the same attitude towards the Indian state. I will > not jump from treetops saying that the state staged a 'false flag' > operation. I will not jump from tree- tops saying the Maoists are beasts > either. I would look very carefully into the details of a very messy war. I > am merely asking that all of us undertake a responsibility to being > committed to this 'carefulness'. > If you saw this morning's post on this list by Aman Sethi of a news story on > allegations that  adivasis were airlifted, abducted and tortured in the name > of anti-Naxal operations you would no doubt realize that we are not > operating in a situation where there are good guys and bad guys, what we > have on the ground are just guys with IEDs and guys with Helicopters. > I don't hide behind a fig leaf of a justification of the Maoists when I am > critical of the state, but I see that for many who are ratcheting up the > tempo of paranoia in the name of hunting down anyone who is critical of > state action as being automatically a Maoist or at best a Maoist > sympathizer, there seems to be no problem at all in hiding behind the > obscenity of a war carried out by the state against its own citizenry. I > find the double standard of crying yourself hoarse against Maoist > sympathizers and remaining silent about the state's mandarins who provide > the gloss and the icing over the state's massacres, troubling, to say the > least. What compels respectable people to adopt such naked double standards? > I wonder what their motives might be. I'd be grateful for any answers, if > they were available. > best, > Shuddha > > On 18-May-10, at 9:12 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > > Irony ...... The last para tells all the motives........same people > ....same style.....like the Batla house...... > On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 9:50 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta > wrote: > > Dear All, > While I have on several occasions expressed my disgust at the way in > which the Government of India is conducting it's 'Operation Green > Hunt', I have to say that the news of the attacks by alleged Maoists > in Chattisgarh, in which 6 villagers have been killed, and more > recently a bus, with several civilians (and some special police > officers)  has been bombed, is deeply disturbing. > It is a totally different matter from attacking men in uniform, (such > as the CRPF jawans who were attacked not so long ago, resulting in 76 > casualties). Though I do not support any war, including the Maoist > initiated 'Peoples War' or for that matter, the Government of India's > 'Operation Green Hunt',  in any war, armed men in uniform in a combat > zone are fair targets. The death of the 76 CRPF jawans, though > regrettable, is not in any way different from the death of any > guerrila soldiers in the PLGA in any combat operation. I refuse to be > blackmailed into thinking of such an event as an evidence of Maoist > 'atrocities'. > But by no stretch of imagination can the same principles of combat be > extended in operations that involve unarmed civilians, (such as the > incidents that have come to light today) no matter who conducts them. > Regardless of whether the state or the Maoists conduct such > operations, they must be condemned by all sensible people in the > harshest terms. The Maoists, and the state must be compelled, through > relentless civic pressure, to publicly abide by the Geneva > Conventions in the matter on the treatment of non-combatants in a > conflict situation. (And yes, there are conventions that shape the > conduct of non-state actors, or the conduct of the state in relation > to non-state actors) > The presence of 15 special police officers in the bus that was bombed > cannot be offered as a justification for the bombing, because a large > number of people who were harmed in the attack had nothing to do with > any arm of the state, they were just ordinary passengers. This is a > simple and disgusting act of terrorism. It cannot be explained away > in any sense as part of a campaign of liberation. > If it is true that these attacks have been carried out by the > Maoists, then, it is clear that they want to ratchet up the general > intensity of violence in the regions where they have a presence. They > want the government to unleash a military style offensive, because > nothing would serve their purpose better. There can be no other > explanation for the manner of these attacks. This is a disastrous and > cynical policy, which will wreck havoc with the lives of the people > of the area and cannot be justified by any means whatsoever. If the > government of India responds by increasing the level and intensity of > the conflict, it will become an accessory of the Maoists design to > totally militarize the areas of central, southern and eastern India > where they currently have a presence. > If nothing else, this shows how the policy of 'Protracted People's > War' is bound to degenerate (and in fact is already degenerating) > into an orgy of random violence, exactly as it did in Peru and > Colombia, where the 'Sendero Luminoso' ('Shining Path') and 'FARC' > rebels competed with the state and right-wing militias in a sad > spiralling descent into armed chaos and brigandage that did nothing > to fulfil any revolutionary goal. If anything it strengthened the > might of the state and the right wing militias in Peru and Colombia. > The Maoists actions (attacks on unarmed civilians) cannot bring about > any other results either. The ultimate and only beneficiary of this > process will be the state and the corporations who want total control > over the forests of Central India. > However, we must not rush to conclusions. If the Maoists disclaim > responsibility for these attacks, then we will have to see whether or > not such a disclaimer has any objective basis. Independent > investigations will have to be carrired out. If, by any means, it is > possible that these attacks are 'false flag' operations, conducted by > rogue elements of the state machinery, or even endorsed by the state, > then the responsibility for the violence will lie squarely on the > state. It must, however, be understood by the Maoists (even if they > have not perpetrated these massacres) that the style of their > politics can and does ennable the state to conduct precisely such > 'false flag' operations. If there are any amongst the leadership of > the Maoists who are sensitive to the possibilities of forging an > alternative radical politics they must begin considering the > necessity of abandoning the disastrous method of 'protracted peoples > war' and explore ways to an open, transparent, militant and public > politics that does not involve the endless cycle of retreats and > massacres. > Wherever the truth may life, this is a very sad day indeed, > best > Shuddha > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > From swapna85 at gmail.com Tue May 18 20:17:32 2010 From: swapna85 at gmail.com (Swapna Kulkarni) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 20:17:32 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] URGENT: Studies on Mumbai 'Slum' Rehabilitation In-Reply-To: <705864.35021.qm@web30705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <705864.35021.qm@web30705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Outlook magazine had an article in early 2007 talking about the informal economy thriving in Dharavi and the slum rehabilitation project. U can look it up Best Swapna Kulkarni On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 2:29 PM, Ashutosh Shyam Potdar wrote: > Shrikant Agwane has made an interesting documentary film on Dharavi. However, I am not sure if the film provides what you need. You may contact him on mydharavi at gmail.com. I know he has done a lot of research. > > Best, > > Ashutosh > > > > > ________________________________ > From: OISHIK SIRCAR > To: sarai list ; Zainab Bawa > Sent: Tue, May 18, 2010 12:20:19 PM > Subject: [Reader-list] URGENT: Studies on Mumbai 'Slum' Rehabilitation > > Hi: > > Can anyone please provide references to any studies available on > rehabilitation schemes for Mumbai 'slums', esp. Dharavi -- which > specifically point at the fact the people don't want to move out of > the 'slum' spaces because of the thriving 'informal' economy there -- > and that rehabilitation is a state mechanism to introduce regulation > and surveillance of 'slum' populations. > > Are there any studies on these or similar lines? > > -- > OISHIK SIRCAR > > oishiksircar at gmail.com > oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From sen.gargi at gmail.com Tue May 18 20:40:01 2010 From: sen.gargi at gmail.com (Gargi Sen) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 20:40:01 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] URGENT: Studies on Mumbai 'Slum' Rehabilitation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: There is a very interesting film called ŒDharavi, Slum for Sale¹ directed by Lutz Konermann. We are trying to acquire the film for distribution in India but it will take some more time. Meanwhile you could try writing to the director at: Lutz Konermann If you¹re based in Delhi you¹re welcome to come by to view it. Gargi From: OISHIK SIRCAR Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 12:20:19 +0530 To: sarai list , Zainab Bawa Subject: [Reader-list] URGENT: Studies on Mumbai 'Slum' Rehabilitation Hi: Can anyone please provide references to any studies available on rehabilitation schemes for Mumbai 'slums', esp. Dharavi -- which specifically point at the fact the people don't want to move out of the 'slum' spaces because of the thriving 'informal' economy there -- and that rehabilitation is a state mechanism to introduce regulation and surveillance of 'slum' populations. Are there any studies on these or similar lines? -- OISHIK SIRCAR oishiksircar at gmail.com oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From jeebesh at sarai.net Tue May 18 21:05:56 2010 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 21:05:56 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The occupation is over, the campaign continues Message-ID: The occupation is over, the campaign continuesPosted on 15 May 2010 by phallward http://savemdxphil.com/ At 8pm on Friday 14 May 2010, Middlesex University management served a High Court injunction to end a twelve-day student occupation of the Mansion building at Trent Park. The occupation began on Tuesday 4 May, when Philosophy students gathered to protest the management’s abrupt decision to close their unique and successful programmes. The occupation quickly succeeded in focusing remarkable levels of national and international attention on the scandalous situation at Middlesex. The injunction came into effect at 8am on Saturday 15 May. The students finally decided to end their occupation on Saturday afternoon so as to join a rally, outside the Mansion, in support of the campaign to save philosophy at Middlesex. During the rally, Tariq Ali and members of the campaign spoke out forcefully against the management’s decision to close the programmes, the way this decision was taken, and the way its consequences and implications have been handled. Today the University management had a clear choice. They could have continued a process of negotiation with the students that management initiated, belatedly and reluctantly, after immense international pressure, on Thursday 13 May. They could have discussed concrete steps for the renewal of MA and PhD recruitment. They could have considered, with their enthusiastic students and staff, options for redesigning and relaunching the BA programme in Philosophy. Or else: they could have made an appeal to the High Court in order to gain the legal power to drive their students out. True to form, the management has made its decision. Faced with students who were determined to protect their subject and the future of humanities teaching at Middlesex, management decided to treat them like criminals. Rather than talk to them face to face about the renewal of their programmes, management decided to bully them off the campus. Middlesex management has been bullying its staff and students for many years now. As everyone knows, the power of a bully ends when the people he intimidates band together and confront him. Middlesex philosophy students have taken a first step towards such confrontation: we appeal to other students and staff, at Middlesex and elsewhere, to join us in this struggle. This occupation is over; the campaign continues. To protest the management’s decision to expel the students, please send a message to the board of governors and members of the University executive, to the email addresses below; if you are willing for us to post your letter on our website along with other letters of support, please BCC it to savemdxphil at gmail.com. Please check this website(www.savemdxphil.com) for future events and regular updates. The Campaign to Save Philosophy at Middlesex Saturday 15 May 2010 www.savemdxphil.com savemdxphil at gmail.com From yasir.media at gmail.com Tue May 18 22:38:44 2010 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?eWFzaXIgftmK2Kcg2LPYsQ==?=) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 22:08:44 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Turning Pakistan around In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: naeem sadiq *Turning Pakistan around* Naeem Sadiq Q. Isa Daudpota If you want numbers and statistics, read the Carnegie Endowment reports or the Foreign Policy Institute’s Failed State Index. Pakistanis have known these stark facts viscerally for ages. Using 12 indicators of state cohesion and performance, the 2009 Index shows Pakistan ranked as the 10th most failed state of the world – with Somalia, Zimbabwe, Sudan, Chad, Congo, Iraq, Afghanistan, Guinea and Central African Republic ahead of us. The almost complete breakdown of governance and state machinery has made life for all but the most privileged a painful daily reality. But still there is a way out this quagmire if people demand with vigour a few essentials from *themselves* and the *state*! 'Unity, faith, discipline' [Jinnah’s slogan], ‘Roti, kapra, makan’ [Bread, Clothing and Shelter, the slogan of the Zulfiqar Bhutto’s PPP] and ‘Pakistan ka matlab kia’ [What does Pakistan mean to us?] – such slogans play with public sentiments but have failed to move people. A disillusioned people must naturally want to move beyond this. What then are the principles, actions and tools that are needed to resuscitate the failing state and lead it to a sustainable future. On this journey of recovery we will need to keep track of key parameters that mark progress. The quality of public services (education, health, water, electricity, public transport etc) is considered one key parameter of a state’s performance. Economic justice, human rights and treatment of women are the other key factors that indicate the well being of a society. In addition, the state must be seen to enforce the writ of the law. The state needs to define, plan, implement, measure and improve all these performance indicators dramatically. The role of the media and civil society organization is to consistently highlight the successes and failures over the long-term. Until now the media, despite its remarkable successes, has been inconsistent in following up issues until their resolution – it has pecked at many serious current issues and problems and then moved on. Other organizations have largely fared worse. As during the Enlightenment, and earlier as in the golden period of Islam, the use of reason and modern knowledge must become the foundation for reform. Begin by rejecting state slogans and instead measure the state’s performance. Stop bowing to holy cows. Respect must come from good performance, not out of a historical accident. Take the false slogan: “The parliament is supreme”. Parliament is just one component of the ‘state’, and like an important organ of state with a specific function. All state institutions have defined functions and no one is either sovereign or operates in a vacuum. Every institution needs to operate effectively within itself and in concert with others while operating within ambit of the law. “We are only accountable to our electorate” or “We are the protectors of the borders of our country and of our people” are other convoluted slogans that need to be set aside. If members of institutions steal, rape or murder they must be accountable before the law regardless of any ideological slogan used to provide exemption. Ballot-box democracy has failed the country as has military rule. We must refuse new elections until the electoral process is completely reformed. Unless this is done the corrupt and incompetent will get re-elected. Important aspects that need reform are: reducing election expenses, verifiable election qualifications, ensuring clear verifiable asset declarations and information about public service and criminal records of candidates. Pakistan must be run by its best citizens and not by imported ex pats who have managed to serve themselves and their masters at Citicorp, World Bank, IMF and donor agencies. We must also beware of home-grown-and-nourished “economic hit men” who act as proxies for such institutions, who advise the country to spend beyond its means on mega-projects and become indebted to the lenders forever. Seehttp://tinyurl.com/32k8gjc and other material by John Perkins (http://www.johnperkins.org) who in a series of publications exposed the working of such agents working against developing countries.* * There is today a shameful silence about population control. A political consensus is needed on this immediately – sustainable development is impossible if we keep breeding as we have. Pakistan must strictly adhere to at most zero population growth (2 children per family) for which there is precedence in Muslim countries. Some of the most important factors for turning around the country are: equality of opportunities, transparency and speedy and equal treatment before law for all citizens. The increasing class disparity needs to be reversed. This can be achieved promptly by mandating that children of all civil and military officials and elected leaders be requiring to attend government schools and they and their families only receive treatment in government hospitals like every poor person in the country. These high-ranking persons should only use public or personal transport -- all official vehicles be withdrawn from personal use. They may not own property or passports of foreign lands. No one shall be entitled to free medical treatment abroad; ‘Umrahs’ and ‘Haj’ at state expense will stop. No one shall possess or carry weapons and every citizen shall receive the same level of protection. The rich and powerful have benefited the most from Pakistan’s failure after having caused it. Unless they are truly threatened by change that will wipe out their looted wealth and current privileges, they will obstruct change. A transformation can therefore only happen through a large-scale *subversion* by its people. The ideas of Saul Alinsky, the great US labour organizer, and others of his ilk can provide the needed inspiration. (See http://tinyurl.com/ctpz5e). "Civil" society will need to stop being "civil" – it needs to become smart, think innovatively and act decisively to bring about the urgent reformation. ---- An edited version appeared in Dawn http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/editorial/turning-pakistan-around-850 -- ~ Foreign aid is when poor people in rich countries donate cash to rich people in poor countries. ~ Say no to bottled water and Demand clean tap water for ALL From parthaekka at gmail.com Tue May 18 22:58:01 2010 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 22:58:01 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Alleged Maoist Atrocities In-Reply-To: References: <26C997A3-93AB-4D7B-BF5C-0752EE6402DD@sarai.net> Message-ID: Dear Pawan / Rajendra, The words the two of you use seem to indicate that we should have blind faith in the 'state'. Well, I for one do not, as even the 'state' is composed of humans with follies and vanities as has been exposed in the Gujarat 'terrorist' killing case as well as the Jessica Lal case where the culprits were first freed. There are plenty of examples of people running the 'state' going overboard - even if we ignore extreme examples like Hitler where atrocities have been done by members of the 'state' against 'people' Do try and use logic instead of playing with words. Rgds, Partha Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 7:13 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Why do you have so much doubt in the state ? Or may I say why do you > sow so much doubts ? While as you do not do the gardeners job in case > of separatists, maoists etc.. > > Pawan > > > On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 6:21 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta > wrote: > > Dear Pawan, > > What motives are you talking about? The only ones that I can see in my > > posting are a clear and categorical criticism and denunciation of the CPI > > (Maoist)'s cult of death and a clear, unambiguous criticism with the way > in > > which the state is reacting to the situation. Do you see anything else? I > > don't have to embrace the devil in order to rescue myself from the deep > > blue sea. > > Having said that, I am not blind to the fact that the Indian state (or > rogue > > elements from within the state apparatus) have on occasion resorted to > > elaborate masquerades to create sensational events that bind popular > > consensus in favour of a hard-line course of action. Remember a place > called > > Cchattisinghpura? Remember what happened there just around the time when > > Bill Clinton came visiting? ast I knew, It was in the province that you > > claim as your homeland. The questions around Cchatisinghpura still > remain, > > and they will not be covered up merely because the state was able to > extract > > a 'custodial confession' from an alleged 'detained militant'. > > What happened routinely in Jammu & Kashmir (especially as authored by the > > notorious 'Ikhwanis', the Kashmiri equivalent of the Salwa Judum) can > easily > > happen elsewhere. This possibility cannot be ruled out, although it must > not > > be seen as the only valid explanation either. We need neither blind faith > in > > the goodness of the Indian state, nor elaborate conspiracy theories, that > > indict it in every tragedy. > > What we need are hard facts. And until the facts are crystal clear, or > are > > made clear through explicit assumptions of responsibility by the Maoists > > themselves of these massacres,or through their implied assent through > > silence to the fact that they were indeed the perpetrators, it would be > > premature to jump to conclusions in any direction. You might have > noticed, > > that despite my aversion towards Hindutva, I have never, ever made > capital > > out of the fact that certain Hindutva activists have been implicated in a > > series of terrorist incidents. My attitude to any event of this nature, > is, > > we must not judge a person to be guilty until he is comprehensively > proven > > not to be innocent. > > If the Maoists remain silent, or own up to their authorship of the last > > round of violence, (as they did, unhesitatingly, in the case of the > killing > > of the 76 CRPF jawans last month) then of course the recent massacres can > be > > unambiguously attributed to them. And this must be condemned. > > If they don't, if they say that they had no hand in what has happened. > Then > > it is a different story altogether. It calls for a different kind of > > response. Not necessarily of endorsing Maoist politics, but of > recognizing > > that maybe, they too might be targets of slander. > > Even in that instance, as I have pointed out, with absolute clarity, the > > politics of of the Maoists could still be held responsible for creating > the > > climate of violence that enables such incidents to occur. And I have no > > problem in accusing the Maoists of an irresponsible form of politics. it > is > > just that I have exactly the same attitude towards the Indian state. I > will > > not jump from treetops saying that the state staged a 'false flag' > > operation. I will not jump from tree- tops saying the Maoists are beasts > > either. I would look very carefully into the details of a very messy war. > I > > am merely asking that all of us undertake a responsibility to being > > committed to this 'carefulness'. > > If you saw this morning's post on this list by Aman Sethi of a news story > on > > allegations that adivasis were airlifted, abducted and tortured in the > name > > of anti-Naxal operations you would no doubt realize that we are not > > operating in a situation where there are good guys and bad guys, what we > > have on the ground are just guys with IEDs and guys with Helicopters. > > I don't hide behind a fig leaf of a justification of the Maoists when I > am > > critical of the state, but I see that for many who are ratcheting up the > > tempo of paranoia in the name of hunting down anyone who is critical of > > state action as being automatically a Maoist or at best a Maoist > > sympathizer, there seems to be no problem at all in hiding behind the > > obscenity of a war carried out by the state against its own citizenry. I > > find the double standard of crying yourself hoarse against Maoist > > sympathizers and remaining silent about the state's mandarins who provide > > the gloss and the icing over the state's massacres, troubling, to say the > > least. What compels respectable people to adopt such naked double > standards? > > I wonder what their motives might be. I'd be grateful for any answers, if > > they were available. > > best, > > Shuddha > > > > On 18-May-10, at 9:12 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > Irony ...... The last para tells all the motives........same people > > ....same style.....like the Batla house...... > > On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 9:50 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > wrote: > > > > Dear All, > > While I have on several occasions expressed my disgust at the way in > > which the Government of India is conducting it's 'Operation Green > > Hunt', I have to say that the news of the attacks by alleged Maoists > > in Chattisgarh, in which 6 villagers have been killed, and more > > recently a bus, with several civilians (and some special police > > officers) has been bombed, is deeply disturbing. > > It is a totally different matter from attacking men in uniform, (such > > as the CRPF jawans who were attacked not so long ago, resulting in 76 > > casualties). Though I do not support any war, including the Maoist > > initiated 'Peoples War' or for that matter, the Government of India's > > 'Operation Green Hunt', in any war, armed men in uniform in a combat > > zone are fair targets. The death of the 76 CRPF jawans, though > > regrettable, is not in any way different from the death of any > > guerrila soldiers in the PLGA in any combat operation. I refuse to be > > blackmailed into thinking of such an event as an evidence of Maoist > > 'atrocities'. > > But by no stretch of imagination can the same principles of combat be > > extended in operations that involve unarmed civilians, (such as the > > incidents that have come to light today) no matter who conducts them. > > Regardless of whether the state or the Maoists conduct such > > operations, they must be condemned by all sensible people in the > > harshest terms. The Maoists, and the state must be compelled, through > > relentless civic pressure, to publicly abide by the Geneva > > Conventions in the matter on the treatment of non-combatants in a > > conflict situation. (And yes, there are conventions that shape the > > conduct of non-state actors, or the conduct of the state in relation > > to non-state actors) > > The presence of 15 special police officers in the bus that was bombed > > cannot be offered as a justification for the bombing, because a large > > number of people who were harmed in the attack had nothing to do with > > any arm of the state, they were just ordinary passengers. This is a > > simple and disgusting act of terrorism. It cannot be explained away > > in any sense as part of a campaign of liberation. > > If it is true that these attacks have been carried out by the > > Maoists, then, it is clear that they want to ratchet up the general > > intensity of violence in the regions where they have a presence. They > > want the government to unleash a military style offensive, because > > nothing would serve their purpose better. There can be no other > > explanation for the manner of these attacks. This is a disastrous and > > cynical policy, which will wreck havoc with the lives of the people > > of the area and cannot be justified by any means whatsoever. If the > > government of India responds by increasing the level and intensity of > > the conflict, it will become an accessory of the Maoists design to > > totally militarize the areas of central, southern and eastern India > > where they currently have a presence. > > If nothing else, this shows how the policy of 'Protracted People's > > War' is bound to degenerate (and in fact is already degenerating) > > into an orgy of random violence, exactly as it did in Peru and > > Colombia, where the 'Sendero Luminoso' ('Shining Path') and 'FARC' > > rebels competed with the state and right-wing militias in a sad > > spiralling descent into armed chaos and brigandage that did nothing > > to fulfil any revolutionary goal. If anything it strengthened the > > might of the state and the right wing militias in Peru and Colombia. > > The Maoists actions (attacks on unarmed civilians) cannot bring about > > any other results either. The ultimate and only beneficiary of this > > process will be the state and the corporations who want total control > > over the forests of Central India. > > However, we must not rush to conclusions. If the Maoists disclaim > > responsibility for these attacks, then we will have to see whether or > > not such a disclaimer has any objective basis. Independent > > investigations will have to be carrired out. If, by any means, it is > > possible that these attacks are 'false flag' operations, conducted by > > rogue elements of the state machinery, or even endorsed by the state, > > then the responsibility for the violence will lie squarely on the > > state. It must, however, be understood by the Maoists (even if they > > have not perpetrated these massacres) that the style of their > > politics can and does ennable the state to conduct precisely such > > 'false flag' operations. If there are any amongst the leadership of > > the Maoists who are sensitive to the possibilities of forging an > > alternative radical politics they must begin considering the > > necessity of abandoning the disastrous method of 'protracted peoples > > war' and explore ways to an open, transparent, militant and public > > politics that does not involve the endless cycle of retreats and > > massacres. > > Wherever the truth may life, this is a very sad day indeed, > > best > > Shuddha > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > > Raqs Media Collective > > shuddha at sarai.net > > www.sarai.net > > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe > > in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > > Raqs Media Collective > > shuddha at sarai.net > > www.sarai.net > > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From peter.ksmtf at gmail.com Tue May 18 23:50:59 2010 From: peter.ksmtf at gmail.com (T Peter) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 23:50:59 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fishermen body warns of protest Message-ID: Fishermen body warns of protest Express News ServiceFirst Published : 18 May 2010 04:08:00 AM ISTLast Updated : THIRUVANANTHAPURAM: Kerala Swatantra Matsyathozhilali Federation state president T Peter and Thiruvananthapuram district secretary Anto Elias have warned of strong agitation against the Union Government move to completely ban fishing from June 15 to July 31. It was reported in a section of the media that such a move is on, they said. It is the State Government, which is ought to decide the type of fishing to be allowed in the seas coming under its purview and not the Central Government, the Federation leaders said. ‘’Until now, it was only a trawling-ban that was implemented during monsoon. No Government can prevent a fish worker from his means of livelihood. Besides, this ban has no scientific basis,’’ Peter said. There is also a move to shift the trawling ban to November-January period, the Federation alleged. “The Central Government is opening up our seas for foreign vessels and at the same time pushing fishermen towards starvation. The Centre should control foreign fishing vessels,’’ they said. The traditional fishermen will go to the sea on June 15 and the Federation will be forced to resist any move to send trawlers to the sea, the Federation office-bearers said. Peter and Anto Elias further demanded that Union Ministers A K Antony, Vayalar Ravi, Mullappally Ramachandran and E Ahamed should clarify their stand on the issue. From rashneek at gmail.com Wed May 19 10:44:54 2010 From: rashneek at gmail.com (rashneek kher) Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 10:44:54 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Alleged Maoist Atrocities In-Reply-To: References: <26C997A3-93AB-4D7B-BF5C-0752EE6402DD@sarai.net> Message-ID: Dear Shudda, I have just a small point to make here.Before I do that I must say I dont trust the state neither do I hold a brief for the Indian state which I believe is hugely responisble for my homelessnes. If people can become separitists by themselves or join them or become Maoists or join any other force which isnt on the side of the state why dont we accept that in the same manner people can join Ikhwanis or Salwa Judum.Both groups(though undoubtedly supported or even run by the state) have the same"sons of soil" as their opponents like Hizb or Naxalas have. Anyone who uses violence as a means of achieving any goal no matter howsoever noble needs to be despised(even if it is the state). NO cause is worth a human life. Best Regards Rashneek On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 6:09 PM, Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi < rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com> wrote: > Dear Shuddha, > > how intellect can be lulled by your post to think that maosists are > genuinely working for the poor, under privileged and tribals, indeed, it is > posts like these which deflect the disgust against the atrocities of > naxalites. > Your words, > "The presence of 15 special police officers in the bus that was bombed > cannot be offered as a justification for the bombing, because a large > number of people who were harmed in the attack had nothing to do with > any arm of the state, they were just ordinary passengers. This is a > simple and disgusting act of terrorism. It cannot be explained away > in any sense as part of a campaign of liberation." > Are the special police officers not the citizens of this nation, who are > employed by the stste to maintain law and order and to contain the > deviants.?Have they got no families , wife and children, for whom they are > toiling in dangerous terrains of deviant domination.? > Naxalites have only one goal, to capture power for the leadership and their > sympathisers, who are cowards, who can not contest any election and seek > public mandate, nor are they having guts to own the actions, unlike a > Bhagath singh whom they invoke when caught, for BHAGATH Singh did not run > away and hide, faced the system, went thru the trial and prosecution, > claimed if he is born again, he will again act the same way of actions to > seek freedom for the society and nation from the british rule. look at the > Kobads and varavara, who live in hiding, meet only "friendly' journalists > and order executions of "informers." Naxalites killing the innocents is not > stste action of act against deviants, if they want, they can change the > "system" by democratic process but not by violence, if they do not > understand that they are the deviants in the democratic rule of laws, > deserve the prosecution by apprehending of the deviants.Naxalites have used > the words of war and enemy not the state, rule of laws in democracy demands > that the deviants be brought under the contained deviation, if necessary by > force in the present circumstances, as rabids have to be put to sleep, so > are the naxals and such deviants. > regards, > rajen > On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 9:50 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta >wrote: > > > Dear All, > > > > While I have on several occasions expressed my disgust at the way in > > which the Government of India is conducting it's 'Operation Green > > Hunt', I have to say that the news of the attacks by alleged Maoists > > in Chattisgarh, in which 6 villagers have been killed, and more > > recently a bus, with several civilians (and some special police > > officers) has been bombed, is deeply disturbing. > > > > It is a totally different matter from attacking men in uniform, (such > > as the CRPF jawans who were attacked not so long ago, resulting in 76 > > casualties). Though I do not support any war, including the Maoist > > initiated 'Peoples War' or for that matter, the Government of India's > > 'Operation Green Hunt', in any war, armed men in uniform in a combat > > zone are fair targets. The death of the 76 CRPF jawans, though > > regrettable, is not in any way different from the death of any > > guerrila soldiers in the PLGA in any combat operation. I refuse to be > > blackmailed into thinking of such an event as an evidence of Maoist > > 'atrocities'. > > > > But by no stretch of imagination can the same principles of combat be > > extended in operations that involve unarmed civilians, (such as the > > incidents that have come to light today) no matter who conducts them. > > Regardless of whether the state or the Maoists conduct such > > operations, they must be condemned by all sensible people in the > > harshest terms. The Maoists, and the state must be compelled, through > > relentless civic pressure, to publicly abide by the Geneva > > Conventions in the matter on the treatment of non-combatants in a > > conflict situation. (And yes, there are conventions that shape the > > conduct of non-state actors, or the conduct of the state in relation > > to non-state actors) > > > > The presence of 15 special police officers in the bus that was bombed > > cannot be offered as a justification for the bombing, because a large > > number of people who were harmed in the attack had nothing to do with > > any arm of the state, they were just ordinary passengers. This is a > > simple and disgusting act of terrorism. It cannot be explained away > > in any sense as part of a campaign of liberation. > > > > If it is true that these attacks have been carried out by the > > Maoists, then, it is clear that they want to ratchet up the general > > intensity of violence in the regions where they have a presence. They > > want the government to unleash a military style offensive, because > > nothing would serve their purpose better. There can be no other > > explanation for the manner of these attacks. This is a disastrous and > > cynical policy, which will wreck havoc with the lives of the people > > of the area and cannot be justified by any means whatsoever. If the > > government of India responds by increasing the level and intensity of > > the conflict, it will become an accessory of the Maoists design to > > totally militarize the areas of central, southern and eastern India > > where they currently have a presence. > > > > If nothing else, this shows how the policy of 'Protracted People's > > War' is bound to degenerate (and in fact is already degenerating) > > into an orgy of random violence, exactly as it did in Peru and > > Colombia, where the 'Sendero Luminoso' ('Shining Path') and 'FARC' > > rebels competed with the state and right-wing militias in a sad > > spiralling descent into armed chaos and brigandage that did nothing > > to fulfil any revolutionary goal. If anything it strengthened the > > might of the state and the right wing militias in Peru and Colombia. > > The Maoists actions (attacks on unarmed civilians) cannot bring about > > any other results either. The ultimate and only beneficiary of this > > process will be the state and the corporations who want total control > > over the forests of Central India. > > > > However, we must not rush to conclusions. If the Maoists disclaim > > responsibility for these attacks, then we will have to see whether or > > not such a disclaimer has any objective basis. Independent > > investigations will have to be carrired out. If, by any means, it is > > possible that these attacks are 'false flag' operations, conducted by > > rogue elements of the state machinery, or even endorsed by the state, > > then the responsibility for the violence will lie squarely on the > > state. It must, however, be understood by the Maoists (even if they > > have not perpetrated these massacres) that the style of their > > politics can and does ennable the state to conduct precisely such > > 'false flag' operations. If there are any amongst the leadership of > > the Maoists who are sensitive to the possibilities of forging an > > alternative radical politics they must begin considering the > > necessity of abandoning the disastrous method of 'protracted peoples > > war' and explore ways to an open, transparent, militant and public > > politics that does not involve the endless cycle of retreats and > > massacres. > > > > Wherever the truth may life, this is a very sad day indeed, > > > > best > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > > Raqs Media Collective > > shuddha at sarai.net > > www.sarai.net > > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > -- > Rajen. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Rashneek Kher http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com From c.anupam at gmail.com Wed May 19 11:00:23 2010 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 11:00:23 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Alleged Maoist Atrocities In-Reply-To: References: <26C997A3-93AB-4D7B-BF5C-0752EE6402DD@sarai.net> Message-ID: The state should then call itself an authoritarian state that would start using brute force in reaction whenever it is neccesary for political party in power to orchestrate a pogrom. Why there are all these lofty words such as liberal, equal, democratic and other such things are included in the constitution? Mere words, eh? The state's position is more critical here then the position of the naxals. It is because the state represented by a bunch of self centred buffoons consistently subverting their own principles, we now criminal mindsets continually plotting such massacres. On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 10:44 AM, rashneek kher wrote: > Dear Shudda, > > I have just a small point to make here.Before I do that I must say I dont > trust the state neither do I hold a brief for the Indian state which I > believe is hugely responisble for my homelessnes. > If people can become separitists by themselves or join them or become > Maoists or join any other force which isnt on the side of the state why > dont > we accept that in the same manner people can join Ikhwanis or Salwa > Judum.Both groups(though undoubtedly supported or even run by the state) > have the same"sons of soil" as their opponents like Hizb or Naxalas have. > Anyone who uses violence as a means of achieving any goal no matter > howsoever noble needs to be despised(even if it is the state). > NO cause is worth a human life. > > > Best Regards > > Rashneek > > On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 6:09 PM, Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi < > rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com> wrote: > > > Dear Shuddha, > > > > how intellect can be lulled by your post to think that maosists are > > genuinely working for the poor, under privileged and tribals, indeed, it > is > > posts like these which deflect the disgust against the atrocities of > > naxalites. > > Your words, > > "The presence of 15 special police officers in the bus that was bombed > > cannot be offered as a justification for the bombing, because a large > > number of people who were harmed in the attack had nothing to do with > > any arm of the state, they were just ordinary passengers. This is a > > simple and disgusting act of terrorism. It cannot be explained away > > in any sense as part of a campaign of liberation." > > Are the special police officers not the citizens of this nation, who are > > employed by the stste to maintain law and order and to contain the > > deviants.?Have they got no families , wife and children, for whom they > are > > toiling in dangerous terrains of deviant domination.? > > Naxalites have only one goal, to capture power for the leadership and > their > > sympathisers, who are cowards, who can not contest any election and seek > > public mandate, nor are they having guts to own the actions, unlike a > > Bhagath singh whom they invoke when caught, for BHAGATH Singh did not run > > away and hide, faced the system, went thru the trial and prosecution, > > claimed if he is born again, he will again act the same way of actions to > > seek freedom for the society and nation from the british rule. look at > the > > Kobads and varavara, who live in hiding, meet only "friendly' journalists > > and order executions of "informers." Naxalites killing the innocents is > not > > stste action of act against deviants, if they want, they can change the > > "system" by democratic process but not by violence, if they do not > > understand that they are the deviants in the democratic rule of laws, > > deserve the prosecution by apprehending of the deviants.Naxalites have > used > > the words of war and enemy not the state, rule of laws in democracy > demands > > that the deviants be brought under the contained deviation, if necessary > by > > force in the present circumstances, as rabids have to be put to sleep, so > > are the naxals and such deviants. > > regards, > > rajen > > On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 9:50 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta < > shuddha at sarai.net > > >wrote: > > > > > Dear All, > > > > > > While I have on several occasions expressed my disgust at the way in > > > which the Government of India is conducting it's 'Operation Green > > > Hunt', I have to say that the news of the attacks by alleged Maoists > > > in Chattisgarh, in which 6 villagers have been killed, and more > > > recently a bus, with several civilians (and some special police > > > officers) has been bombed, is deeply disturbing. > > > > > > It is a totally different matter from attacking men in uniform, (such > > > as the CRPF jawans who were attacked not so long ago, resulting in 76 > > > casualties). Though I do not support any war, including the Maoist > > > initiated 'Peoples War' or for that matter, the Government of India's > > > 'Operation Green Hunt', in any war, armed men in uniform in a combat > > > zone are fair targets. The death of the 76 CRPF jawans, though > > > regrettable, is not in any way different from the death of any > > > guerrila soldiers in the PLGA in any combat operation. I refuse to be > > > blackmailed into thinking of such an event as an evidence of Maoist > > > 'atrocities'. > > > > > > But by no stretch of imagination can the same principles of combat be > > > extended in operations that involve unarmed civilians, (such as the > > > incidents that have come to light today) no matter who conducts them. > > > Regardless of whether the state or the Maoists conduct such > > > operations, they must be condemned by all sensible people in the > > > harshest terms. The Maoists, and the state must be compelled, through > > > relentless civic pressure, to publicly abide by the Geneva > > > Conventions in the matter on the treatment of non-combatants in a > > > conflict situation. (And yes, there are conventions that shape the > > > conduct of non-state actors, or the conduct of the state in relation > > > to non-state actors) > > > > > > The presence of 15 special police officers in the bus that was bombed > > > cannot be offered as a justification for the bombing, because a large > > > number of people who were harmed in the attack had nothing to do with > > > any arm of the state, they were just ordinary passengers. This is a > > > simple and disgusting act of terrorism. It cannot be explained away > > > in any sense as part of a campaign of liberation. > > > > > > If it is true that these attacks have been carried out by the > > > Maoists, then, it is clear that they want to ratchet up the general > > > intensity of violence in the regions where they have a presence. They > > > want the government to unleash a military style offensive, because > > > nothing would serve their purpose better. There can be no other > > > explanation for the manner of these attacks. This is a disastrous and > > > cynical policy, which will wreck havoc with the lives of the people > > > of the area and cannot be justified by any means whatsoever. If the > > > government of India responds by increasing the level and intensity of > > > the conflict, it will become an accessory of the Maoists design to > > > totally militarize the areas of central, southern and eastern India > > > where they currently have a presence. > > > > > > If nothing else, this shows how the policy of 'Protracted People's > > > War' is bound to degenerate (and in fact is already degenerating) > > > into an orgy of random violence, exactly as it did in Peru and > > > Colombia, where the 'Sendero Luminoso' ('Shining Path') and 'FARC' > > > rebels competed with the state and right-wing militias in a sad > > > spiralling descent into armed chaos and brigandage that did nothing > > > to fulfil any revolutionary goal. If anything it strengthened the > > > might of the state and the right wing militias in Peru and Colombia. > > > The Maoists actions (attacks on unarmed civilians) cannot bring about > > > any other results either. The ultimate and only beneficiary of this > > > process will be the state and the corporations who want total control > > > over the forests of Central India. > > > > > > However, we must not rush to conclusions. If the Maoists disclaim > > > responsibility for these attacks, then we will have to see whether or > > > not such a disclaimer has any objective basis. Independent > > > investigations will have to be carrired out. If, by any means, it is > > > possible that these attacks are 'false flag' operations, conducted by > > > rogue elements of the state machinery, or even endorsed by the state, > > > then the responsibility for the violence will lie squarely on the > > > state. It must, however, be understood by the Maoists (even if they > > > have not perpetrated these massacres) that the style of their > > > politics can and does ennable the state to conduct precisely such > > > 'false flag' operations. If there are any amongst the leadership of > > > the Maoists who are sensitive to the possibilities of forging an > > > alternative radical politics they must begin considering the > > > necessity of abandoning the disastrous method of 'protracted peoples > > > war' and explore ways to an open, transparent, militant and public > > > politics that does not involve the endless cycle of retreats and > > > massacres. > > > > > > Wherever the truth may life, this is a very sad day indeed, > > > > > > best > > > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > > > Raqs Media Collective > > > shuddha at sarai.net > > > www.sarai.net > > > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Rajen. > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > -- > Rashneek Kher > http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com > http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From parthaekka at gmail.com Wed May 19 12:38:13 2010 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 12:38:13 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Alleged Maoist Atrocities In-Reply-To: References: <26C997A3-93AB-4D7B-BF5C-0752EE6402DD@sarai.net> Message-ID: Dear Anupam, Ages back saw the movie "Ardh Satya" where the policeman becomes desensitized by his work out of necessity. I meet doctors who treat at AIIMS and do a great job but have neither the time for compassion, nor can afford to. As an IT guy, meet many people who's hard drives have crashed and they have lost all their data - just say sorry and move on to the next job. Is that a reason ? No. But the untrained scared security guys in the middle of a place that they don't know are in a position that they have to follow the 'command'. The sad part is, force is required at times - such as the Mumbai incident where the forces overcame the terrorists. It isn't a perfect world. Rgds, Partha ................................... Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 11:00 AM, anupam chakravartty wrote: > The state should then call itself an authoritarian state that would start > using brute force in reaction whenever it is neccesary for political party > in power to orchestrate a pogrom. Why there are all these lofty words such > as liberal, equal, democratic and other such things are included in the > constitution? Mere words, eh? The state's position is more critical here > then the position of the naxals. It is because the state represented by a > bunch of self centred buffoons consistently subverting their own > principles, > we now criminal mindsets continually plotting such massacres. > > > On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 10:44 AM, rashneek kher > wrote: > > > Dear Shudda, > > > > I have just a small point to make here.Before I do that I must say I dont > > trust the state neither do I hold a brief for the Indian state which I > > believe is hugely responisble for my homelessnes. > > If people can become separitists by themselves or join them or become > > Maoists or join any other force which isnt on the side of the state why > > dont > > we accept that in the same manner people can join Ikhwanis or Salwa > > Judum.Both groups(though undoubtedly supported or even run by the state) > > have the same"sons of soil" as their opponents like Hizb or Naxalas have. > > Anyone who uses violence as a means of achieving any goal no matter > > howsoever noble needs to be despised(even if it is the state). > > NO cause is worth a human life. > > > > > > Best Regards > > > > Rashneek > > > > On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 6:09 PM, Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi < > > rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > Dear Shuddha, > > > > > > how intellect can be lulled by your post to think that maosists are > > > genuinely working for the poor, under privileged and tribals, indeed, > it > > is > > > posts like these which deflect the disgust against the atrocities of > > > naxalites. > > > Your words, > > > "The presence of 15 special police officers in the bus that was bombed > > > cannot be offered as a justification for the bombing, because a large > > > number of people who were harmed in the attack had nothing to do with > > > any arm of the state, they were just ordinary passengers. This is a > > > simple and disgusting act of terrorism. It cannot be explained away > > > in any sense as part of a campaign of liberation." > > > Are the special police officers not the citizens of this nation, who > are > > > employed by the stste to maintain law and order and to contain the > > > deviants.?Have they got no families , wife and children, for whom they > > are > > > toiling in dangerous terrains of deviant domination.? > > > Naxalites have only one goal, to capture power for the leadership and > > their > > > sympathisers, who are cowards, who can not contest any election and > seek > > > public mandate, nor are they having guts to own the actions, unlike a > > > Bhagath singh whom they invoke when caught, for BHAGATH Singh did not > run > > > away and hide, faced the system, went thru the trial and prosecution, > > > claimed if he is born again, he will again act the same way of actions > to > > > seek freedom for the society and nation from the british rule. look at > > the > > > Kobads and varavara, who live in hiding, meet only "friendly' > journalists > > > and order executions of "informers." Naxalites killing the innocents is > > not > > > stste action of act against deviants, if they want, they can change the > > > "system" by democratic process but not by violence, if they do not > > > understand that they are the deviants in the democratic rule of laws, > > > deserve the prosecution by apprehending of the deviants.Naxalites have > > used > > > the words of war and enemy not the state, rule of laws in democracy > > demands > > > that the deviants be brought under the contained deviation, if > necessary > > by > > > force in the present circumstances, as rabids have to be put to sleep, > so > > > are the naxals and such deviants. > > > regards, > > > rajen > > > On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 9:50 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta < > > shuddha at sarai.net > > > >wrote: > > > > > > > Dear All, > > > > > > > > While I have on several occasions expressed my disgust at the way in > > > > which the Government of India is conducting it's 'Operation Green > > > > Hunt', I have to say that the news of the attacks by alleged Maoists > > > > in Chattisgarh, in which 6 villagers have been killed, and more > > > > recently a bus, with several civilians (and some special police > > > > officers) has been bombed, is deeply disturbing. > > > > > > > > It is a totally different matter from attacking men in uniform, (such > > > > as the CRPF jawans who were attacked not so long ago, resulting in 76 > > > > casualties). Though I do not support any war, including the Maoist > > > > initiated 'Peoples War' or for that matter, the Government of India's > > > > 'Operation Green Hunt', in any war, armed men in uniform in a combat > > > > zone are fair targets. The death of the 76 CRPF jawans, though > > > > regrettable, is not in any way different from the death of any > > > > guerrila soldiers in the PLGA in any combat operation. I refuse to be > > > > blackmailed into thinking of such an event as an evidence of Maoist > > > > 'atrocities'. > > > > > > > > But by no stretch of imagination can the same principles of combat be > > > > extended in operations that involve unarmed civilians, (such as the > > > > incidents that have come to light today) no matter who conducts them. > > > > Regardless of whether the state or the Maoists conduct such > > > > operations, they must be condemned by all sensible people in the > > > > harshest terms. The Maoists, and the state must be compelled, through > > > > relentless civic pressure, to publicly abide by the Geneva > > > > Conventions in the matter on the treatment of non-combatants in a > > > > conflict situation. (And yes, there are conventions that shape the > > > > conduct of non-state actors, or the conduct of the state in relation > > > > to non-state actors) > > > > > > > > The presence of 15 special police officers in the bus that was bombed > > > > cannot be offered as a justification for the bombing, because a large > > > > number of people who were harmed in the attack had nothing to do with > > > > any arm of the state, they were just ordinary passengers. This is a > > > > simple and disgusting act of terrorism. It cannot be explained away > > > > in any sense as part of a campaign of liberation. > > > > > > > > If it is true that these attacks have been carried out by the > > > > Maoists, then, it is clear that they want to ratchet up the general > > > > intensity of violence in the regions where they have a presence. They > > > > want the government to unleash a military style offensive, because > > > > nothing would serve their purpose better. There can be no other > > > > explanation for the manner of these attacks. This is a disastrous and > > > > cynical policy, which will wreck havoc with the lives of the people > > > > of the area and cannot be justified by any means whatsoever. If the > > > > government of India responds by increasing the level and intensity of > > > > the conflict, it will become an accessory of the Maoists design to > > > > totally militarize the areas of central, southern and eastern India > > > > where they currently have a presence. > > > > > > > > If nothing else, this shows how the policy of 'Protracted People's > > > > War' is bound to degenerate (and in fact is already degenerating) > > > > into an orgy of random violence, exactly as it did in Peru and > > > > Colombia, where the 'Sendero Luminoso' ('Shining Path') and 'FARC' > > > > rebels competed with the state and right-wing militias in a sad > > > > spiralling descent into armed chaos and brigandage that did nothing > > > > to fulfil any revolutionary goal. If anything it strengthened the > > > > might of the state and the right wing militias in Peru and Colombia. > > > > The Maoists actions (attacks on unarmed civilians) cannot bring about > > > > any other results either. The ultimate and only beneficiary of this > > > > process will be the state and the corporations who want total control > > > > over the forests of Central India. > > > > > > > > However, we must not rush to conclusions. If the Maoists disclaim > > > > responsibility for these attacks, then we will have to see whether or > > > > not such a disclaimer has any objective basis. Independent > > > > investigations will have to be carrired out. If, by any means, it is > > > > possible that these attacks are 'false flag' operations, conducted by > > > > rogue elements of the state machinery, or even endorsed by the state, > > > > then the responsibility for the violence will lie squarely on the > > > > state. It must, however, be understood by the Maoists (even if they > > > > have not perpetrated these massacres) that the style of their > > > > politics can and does ennable the state to conduct precisely such > > > > 'false flag' operations. If there are any amongst the leadership of > > > > the Maoists who are sensitive to the possibilities of forging an > > > > alternative radical politics they must begin considering the > > > > necessity of abandoning the disastrous method of 'protracted peoples > > > > war' and explore ways to an open, transparent, militant and public > > > > politics that does not involve the endless cycle of retreats and > > > > massacres. > > > > > > > > Wherever the truth may life, this is a very sad day indeed, > > > > > > > > best > > > > > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > > > > Raqs Media Collective > > > > shuddha at sarai.net > > > > www.sarai.net > > > > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Rajen. > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Rashneek Kher > > http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com > > http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From sonia.jabbar at gmail.com Wed May 19 12:54:07 2010 From: sonia.jabbar at gmail.com (S. Jabbar) Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 12:54:07 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Alleged Maoist Atrocities In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Shuddha, You've raised the subject of Chittisinghpora-- another among many contentious incidents in Kashmir, where it was far from certain who the perpetrators of the killings of 36 Kashmiri Sikhs were. You mention Clinton's visit and imply that the Indian state was responsible. I wonder if you would elaborate. Sincerely sj > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 18:21:46 +0530 > To: Pawan Durani > Cc: sarai list > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Alleged Maoist Atrocities > > Dear Pawan, What motives are you talking about? The only ones that I can see > in my posting are a clear and categorical criticism and denunciation of > the CPI (Maoist)'s cult of death and a clear, unambiguous criticism with > the way in which the state is reacting to the situation. Do you see anything > else? I don't have to embrace the devil in order to rescue myself from the > deep blue sea. Having said that, I am not blind to the fact that the Indian > state (or rogue elements from within the state apparatus) have on occasion > resorted to elaborate masquerades to create sensational events that bind > popular consensus in favour of a hard-line course of action. Remember a > place called Cchattisinghpura? Remember what happened there just around the > time when Bill Clinton came visiting? ast I knew, It was in the province > that you claim as your homeland. The questions around Cchatisinghpura still > remain, and they will not be covered up merely because the state was able to > extract a 'custodial confession' from an alleged 'detained militant'. What > happened routinely in Jammu & Kashmir (especially as authored by the > notorious 'Ikhwanis', the Kashmiri equivalent of the Salwa Judum) can easily > happen elsewhere. This possibility cannot be ruled out, although it must not > be seen as the only valid explanation either. We need neither blind faith in > the goodness of the Indian state, nor elaborate conspiracy theories, that > indict it in every tragedy. What we need are hard facts. And until the facts > are crystal clear, or are made clear through explicit assumptions of > responsibility by the Maoists themselves of these massacres,or through their > implied assent through silence to the fact that they were indeed the > perpetrators, it would be premature to jump to conclusions in any > direction. You might have noticed, that despite my aversion towards > Hindutva, I have never, ever made capital out of the fact that certain > Hindutva activists have been implicated in a series of terrorist incidents. > My attitude to any event of this nature, is, we must not judge a person to > be guilty until he is comprehensively proven not to be innocent. If the > Maoists remain silent, or own up to their authorship of the last round of > violence, (as they did, unhesitatingly, in the case of the killing of the 76 > CRPF jawans last month) then of course the recent massacres can be > unambiguously attributed to them. And this must be condemned. If they > don't, if they say that they had no hand in what has happened. Then it is a > different story altogether. It calls for a different kind of response. Not > necessarily of endorsing Maoist politics, but of recognizing that maybe, > they too might be targets of slander. Even in that instance, as I have > pointed out, with absolute clarity, the politics of of the Maoists could > still be held responsible for creating the climate of violence that enables > such incidents to occur. And I have no problem in accusing the Maoists of an > irresponsible form of politics. it is just that I have exactly the same > attitude towards the Indian state. I will not jump from treetops saying that > the state staged a 'false flag' operation. I will not jump from tree- tops > saying the Maoists are beasts either. I would look very carefully into the > details of a very messy war. I am merely asking that all of us undertake a > responsibility to being committed to this 'carefulness'. If you saw this > morning's post on this list by Aman Sethi of a news story on allegations > that adivasis were airlifted, abducted and tortured in the name of > anti-Naxal operations you would no doubt realize that we are not operating > in a situation where there are good guys and bad guys, what we have on the > ground are just guys with IEDs and guys with Helicopters. I don't hide > behind a fig leaf of a justification of the Maoists when I am critical of > the state, but I see that for many who are ratcheting up the tempo of > paranoia in the name of hunting down anyone who is critical of state action > as being automatically a Maoist or at best a Maoist sympathizer, there seems > to be no problem at all in hiding behind the obscenity of a war carried out > by the state against its own citizenry. I find the double standard of crying > yourself hoarse against Maoist sympathizers and remaining silent about the > state's mandarins who provide the gloss and the icing over the state's > massacres, troubling, to say the least. What compels respectable people to > adopt such naked double standards? I wonder what their motives might be. I'd > be grateful for any answers, if they were available. best, Shuddha On > 18-May-10, at 9:12 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Irony ...... The last para tells > all the motives........same people > ....same style.....like the Batla > house...... > > On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 9:50 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > wrote: >> Dear All, >> >> While I have on several > occasions expressed my disgust at the way in >> which the Government of India > is conducting it's 'Operation Green >> Hunt', I have to say that the news of > the attacks by alleged Maoists >> in Chattisgarh, in which 6 villagers have > been killed, and more >> recently a bus, with several civilians (and some > special police >> officers) has been bombed, is deeply disturbing. >> >> It > is a totally different matter from attacking men in uniform, (such >> as the > CRPF jawans who were attacked not so long ago, resulting in 76 >> casualties). > Though I do not support any war, including the Maoist >> initiated 'Peoples > War' or for that matter, the Government of India's >> 'Operation Green Hunt', > in any war, armed men in uniform in a combat >> zone are fair targets. The > death of the 76 CRPF jawans, though >> regrettable, is not in any way > different from the death of any >> guerrila soldiers in the PLGA in any combat > operation. I refuse to be >> blackmailed into thinking of such an event as an > evidence of Maoist >> 'atrocities'. >> >> But by no stretch of imagination can > the same principles of combat be >> extended in operations that involve > unarmed civilians, (such as the >> incidents that have come to light today) no > matter who conducts them. >> Regardless of whether the state or the Maoists > conduct such >> operations, they must be condemned by all sensible people in > the >> harshest terms. The Maoists, and the state must be compelled, > through >> relentless civic pressure, to publicly abide by the Geneva >> > Conventions in the matter on the treatment of non-combatants in a >> conflict > situation. (And yes, there are conventions that shape the >> conduct of > non-state actors, or the conduct of the state in relation >> to non-state > actors) >> >> The presence of 15 special police officers in the bus that was > bombed >> cannot be offered as a justification for the bombing, because a > large >> number of people who were harmed in the attack had nothing to do > with >> any arm of the state, they were just ordinary passengers. This is a >> > simple and disgusting act of terrorism. It cannot be explained away >> in any > sense as part of a campaign of liberation. >> >> If it is true that these > attacks have been carried out by the >> Maoists, then, it is clear that they > want to ratchet up the general >> intensity of violence in the regions where > they have a presence. They >> want the government to unleash a military style > offensive, because >> nothing would serve their purpose better. There can be > no other >> explanation for the manner of these attacks. This is a disastrous > and >> cynical policy, which will wreck havoc with the lives of the people >> > of the area and cannot be justified by any means whatsoever. If the >> > government of India responds by increasing the level and intensity of >> the > conflict, it will become an accessory of the Maoists design to >> totally > militarize the areas of central, southern and eastern India >> where they > currently have a presence. >> >> If nothing else, this shows how the policy of > 'Protracted People's >> War' is bound to degenerate (and in fact is already > degenerating) >> into an orgy of random violence, exactly as it did in Peru > and >> Colombia, where the 'Sendero Luminoso' ('Shining Path') and 'FARC' >> > rebels competed with the state and right-wing militias in a sad >> spiralling > descent into armed chaos and brigandage that did nothing >> to fulfil any > revolutionary goal. If anything it strengthened the >> might of the state and > the right wing militias in Peru and Colombia. >> The Maoists actions (attacks > on unarmed civilians) cannot bring about >> any other results either. The > ultimate and only beneficiary of this >> process will be the state and the > corporations who want total control >> over the forests of Central > India. >> >> However, we must not rush to conclusions. If the Maoists > disclaim >> responsibility for these attacks, then we will have to see whether > or >> not such a disclaimer has any objective basis. Independent >> > investigations will have to be carrired out. If, by any means, it is >> > possible that these attacks are 'false flag' operations, conducted by >> rogue > elements of the state machinery, or even endorsed by the state, >> then the > responsibility for the violence will lie squarely on the >> state. It must, > however, be understood by the Maoists (even if they >> have not perpetrated > these massacres) that the style of their >> politics can and does ennable the > state to conduct precisely such >> 'false flag' operations. If there are any > amongst the leadership of >> the Maoists who are sensitive to the > possibilities of forging an >> alternative radical politics they must begin > considering the >> necessity of abandoning the disastrous method of > 'protracted peoples >> war' and explore ways to an open, transparent, militant > and public >> politics that does not involve the endless cycle of retreats > and >> massacres. >> >> Wherever the truth may life, this is a very sad day > indeed, >> >> best >> >> Shuddha >> >> >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> The Sarai > Programme at CSDS >> Raqs Media Collective >> shuddha at sarai.net >> > www.sarai.net >> www.raqsmediacollective.net >> >> >> > _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion > list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the > subject header. >> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The > Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media > Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net _____ > ____________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on > media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To > unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List > archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From shuddha at sarai.net Wed May 19 13:01:16 2010 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 13:01:16 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Alleged Maoist Atrocities In-Reply-To: References: <26C997A3-93AB-4D7B-BF5C-0752EE6402DD@sarai.net> Message-ID: Dear Rashneek, I agree with you that NO cause is worth human lives. This does not mean that I am advocating non-violence, I believe that violence can be resorted to, morally and ethically, in self defence. Were the armed power of the Maoists always used in Self Defence and in the defence of the communities they say they represent, when faced with the violence of the state, I would have no hesitation in supporting it. But the policy of 'Protracted Peoples War' is not self defence. And blowing up a bus with unarmed civilians in it, is not self defence. These are offensive demonstrations of armed might designed to coerce a population and is in my view indefensible. I am in principle opposed to the policy of war, even a 'People's War' because I believe that militarization and the formation of armies is in all instances a counter-revolutionary measure. Ramanna, the spokespersons of the Maoists said today that he 'regrets the killings of the civilians' that happened in the bus bombing in Cchatisgarh. That is like Madeleine Albright regretting the death of Iraqi civilians as 'collateral damage'. The CPI(Maoist) has taken responsibility for the massacres. So there can be no doubt about who did what. Their actions are totally worthy of condemnation, and they must be combatted politically. I also agree with you that the Ikhwanis and the Salwa Judum may have people who joined them for their own motives, just as those who join the separatists and the Maoists also have people who join them for their own reasons. That does not mean that these organizations (like the Ikhwanis and the Salwa Judum) are not on occasion either set up or run, or amenable to becoming instruments of the state, and when that is the case, they must be treated as instruments of state policy. Having said that, I think that organizations must be judged according to the consequences of their actions, not according to the motivations of their members. I have no hesitation in saying (now that we know that the Maoists were responsible) that the consequences of the recent actions undertaken by the Maoists are deplorable. No ifs, no buts. best Shuddha On 19-May-10, at 10:44 AM, rashneek kher wrote: > Dear Shudda, > > I have just a small point to make here.Before I do that I must say > I dont trust the state neither do I hold a brief for the Indian > state which I believe is hugely responisble for my homelessnes. > If people can become separitists by themselves or join them or > become Maoists or join any other force which isnt on the side of > the state why dont we accept that in the same manner people can > join Ikhwanis or Salwa Judum.Both groups(though undoubtedly > supported or even run by the state) have the same"sons of soil" as > their opponents like Hizb or Naxalas have. > Anyone who uses violence as a means of achieving any goal no matter > howsoever noble needs to be despised(even if it is the state). > NO cause is worth a human life. > > > Best Regards > > Rashneek > > On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 6:09 PM, Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi > wrote: > Dear Shuddha, > > how intellect can be lulled by your post to think that maosists are > genuinely working for the poor, under privileged and tribals, > indeed, it is > posts like these which deflect the disgust against the atrocities of > naxalites. > Your words, > "The presence of 15 special police officers in the bus that was bombed > cannot be offered as a justification for the bombing, because a large > number of people who were harmed in the attack had nothing to do with > any arm of the state, they were just ordinary passengers. This is a > simple and disgusting act of terrorism. It cannot be explained away > in any sense as part of a campaign of liberation." > Are the special police officers not the citizens of this nation, > who are > employed by the stste to maintain law and order and to contain the > deviants.?Have they got no families , wife and children, for whom > they are > toiling in dangerous terrains of deviant domination.? > Naxalites have only one goal, to capture power for the leadership > and their > sympathisers, who are cowards, who can not contest any election and > seek > public mandate, nor are they having guts to own the actions, unlike a > Bhagath singh whom they invoke when caught, for BHAGATH Singh did > not run > away and hide, faced the system, went thru the trial and prosecution, > claimed if he is born again, he will again act the same way of > actions to > seek freedom for the society and nation from the british rule. look > at the > Kobads and varavara, who live in hiding, meet only "friendly' > journalists > and order executions of "informers." Naxalites killing the > innocents is not > stste action of act against deviants, if they want, they can change > the > "system" by democratic process but not by violence, if they do not > understand that they are the deviants in the democratic rule of laws, > deserve the prosecution by apprehending of the deviants.Naxalites > have used > the words of war and enemy not the state, rule of laws in democracy > demands > that the deviants be brought under the contained deviation, if > necessary by > force in the present circumstances, as rabids have to be put to > sleep, so > are the naxals and such deviants. > regards, > rajen > On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 9:50 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta > wrote: > > > Dear All, > > > > While I have on several occasions expressed my disgust at the way in > > which the Government of India is conducting it's 'Operation Green > > Hunt', I have to say that the news of the attacks by alleged Maoists > > in Chattisgarh, in which 6 villagers have been killed, and more > > recently a bus, with several civilians (and some special police > > officers) has been bombed, is deeply disturbing. > > > > It is a totally different matter from attacking men in uniform, > (such > > as the CRPF jawans who were attacked not so long ago, resulting > in 76 > > casualties). Though I do not support any war, including the Maoist > > initiated 'Peoples War' or for that matter, the Government of > India's > > 'Operation Green Hunt', in any war, armed men in uniform in a > combat > > zone are fair targets. The death of the 76 CRPF jawans, though > > regrettable, is not in any way different from the death of any > > guerrila soldiers in the PLGA in any combat operation. I refuse > to be > > blackmailed into thinking of such an event as an evidence of Maoist > > 'atrocities'. > > > > But by no stretch of imagination can the same principles of > combat be > > extended in operations that involve unarmed civilians, (such as the > > incidents that have come to light today) no matter who conducts > them. > > Regardless of whether the state or the Maoists conduct such > > operations, they must be condemned by all sensible people in the > > harshest terms. The Maoists, and the state must be compelled, > through > > relentless civic pressure, to publicly abide by the Geneva > > Conventions in the matter on the treatment of non-combatants in a > > conflict situation. (And yes, there are conventions that shape the > > conduct of non-state actors, or the conduct of the state in relation > > to non-state actors) > > > > The presence of 15 special police officers in the bus that was > bombed > > cannot be offered as a justification for the bombing, because a > large > > number of people who were harmed in the attack had nothing to do > with > > any arm of the state, they were just ordinary passengers. This is a > > simple and disgusting act of terrorism. It cannot be explained away > > in any sense as part of a campaign of liberation. > > > > If it is true that these attacks have been carried out by the > > Maoists, then, it is clear that they want to ratchet up the general > > intensity of violence in the regions where they have a presence. > They > > want the government to unleash a military style offensive, because > > nothing would serve their purpose better. There can be no other > > explanation for the manner of these attacks. This is a disastrous > and > > cynical policy, which will wreck havoc with the lives of the people > > of the area and cannot be justified by any means whatsoever. If the > > government of India responds by increasing the level and > intensity of > > the conflict, it will become an accessory of the Maoists design to > > totally militarize the areas of central, southern and eastern India > > where they currently have a presence. > > > > If nothing else, this shows how the policy of 'Protracted People's > > War' is bound to degenerate (and in fact is already degenerating) > > into an orgy of random violence, exactly as it did in Peru and > > Colombia, where the 'Sendero Luminoso' ('Shining Path') and 'FARC' > > rebels competed with the state and right-wing militias in a sad > > spiralling descent into armed chaos and brigandage that did nothing > > to fulfil any revolutionary goal. If anything it strengthened the > > might of the state and the right wing militias in Peru and Colombia. > > The Maoists actions (attacks on unarmed civilians) cannot bring > about > > any other results either. The ultimate and only beneficiary of this > > process will be the state and the corporations who want total > control > > over the forests of Central India. > > > > However, we must not rush to conclusions. If the Maoists disclaim > > responsibility for these attacks, then we will have to see > whether or > > not such a disclaimer has any objective basis. Independent > > investigations will have to be carrired out. If, by any means, it is > > possible that these attacks are 'false flag' operations, > conducted by > > rogue elements of the state machinery, or even endorsed by the > state, > > then the responsibility for the violence will lie squarely on the > > state. It must, however, be understood by the Maoists (even if they > > have not perpetrated these massacres) that the style of their > > politics can and does ennable the state to conduct precisely such > > 'false flag' operations. If there are any amongst the leadership of > > the Maoists who are sensitive to the possibilities of forging an > > alternative radical politics they must begin considering the > > necessity of abandoning the disastrous method of 'protracted peoples > > war' and explore ways to an open, transparent, militant and public > > politics that does not involve the endless cycle of retreats and > > massacres. > > > > Wherever the truth may life, this is a very sad day indeed, > > > > best > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > > Raqs Media Collective > > shuddha at sarai.net > > www.sarai.net > > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > -- > Rajen. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > Rashneek Kher > http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com > http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From c.anupam at gmail.com Wed May 19 15:11:50 2010 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 15:11:50 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Alleged Maoist Atrocities In-Reply-To: References: <26C997A3-93AB-4D7B-BF5C-0752EE6402DD@sarai.net> Message-ID: Dear Partha and others, I have a problem with comparisons being drawn between Mumbai incident of 26/11 and Dantewada, as Partha has written in this exchange: "The sad part is, force is required at times - such as the Mumbai incident where the forces overcame the terrorists. It isn't a perfect world." . The problems are technical, and therefore debatable. 26/11 was a case of sabotage, at least this is what it looks like. In Dantewada, forces entered naxal occupied territory without any preparedness or intelligence back up. To quote slain Assistant Commandant, Bajrang Meena's brother, Badri after his brother perished in the first Dantewada attacks: “Yeh to dhokha hai (this is treachery). He was not fighting an external enemy but his own countrymen who killed him. How can his death be justified?” Guess what Sumer Singh Yadav, a former CRPF and brother of Satyapal Singh Yadav, Deputy Commandant and Meena's boss who also died in these attacks had to say? To quote him: "In this area [Jhunjhunu district of Rajasthan], most families send one member to the forces. But if our sons, fathers and brothers have to die fighting Naxals in poor conditions, we will stop sending our people. The government dithers on policy, saying this one day and something else the next. And the CRPF means a hard life... how can the government not know about an ambush planned by more than a thousand Naxals? How?” I can understand that I am not quoting someone from MHA on this but relatives of the slain personnel because they are at the ultimate receiving end in this conflict just like someone from the indigenous tribes, whose brother or father was killed during the same encounter. This end is important because the memories would stay here permanently embedded as opposed to the collective memory, which is likely to forget it soon. For further reading: http://www.indianexpress.com/news/yeh-dhokha-hai...-countrymen-killed-my-brother/601697/0 As a lay person, if state's (an institution that collects taxes from me and you) reaction to naxalism is by creating Salwa Judum or something similar to that, isnt it just perpetuation of violence and wastage of the state revenue? Even more strange is when a very senior minister says that organizations that sympathizes the naxals and criticising the state, are not offering alternatives, it speaks volumes about the kind of responsibility that government has over its own sovereignty. Is it not true that both union and respective state governments of the states affected by maoists, who now want to come down harshly on the sympathisers of maoists, were never interested in working these areas till things got out of hand? Is India's grievance redressal system so weak that every time dissent happens it has to be suppressed with force? So whose responsibility is it to find the alternatives? NGOs, Maoist sympathisers or government or now, as it seems, corporates? I question this from my previous experience of smaller theaters of radicalism and dissent, where such counter insurgency forces were created by the state. For example, in Assam, to counter the threat of ULFA, a quasi outfit consisting of some willing surrendered militants were formed. Although, this quasi outfit has very few members now as realization dawned upon these former rebels not fall for the trappings of the political parties, between 1995 to 2005, these people wreaked havoc through extortions and killings, which have very well documented by local news papers and NGOs working there. Unfortunately, very little we know about these smaller theaters, thanks to the neglect that north eastern states have faced over the years. For MHA, these instances could have served as learnings. But as I have pointed out, leaving aside a few, most of people with the state are self centred individuals who are either representing a business interest or are securing these areas to further their political agenda. As a journalist, I would say if Maoists are seen as a force promoting their agenda through propaganda and violence, then government is no less different. Today Maoists have lost the moral support of the people, which is why they are now attacking policemen and moving into newer territories but unlike thieves or dacoits who have immediate aims (someone in this list had earlier compared naxals with chambal's dacoits) the so-called revolutionaries thrive on the failures or misunderstandings of the state and its channels. I personally feel that there should be no human lives lost in an ideological conflict. If it has started happening, that mean both the sides are shifting from their objectives and getting into a war. on one side peoples' war for whatever reason, the other considers it to be anti national. Thanks Anupam On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 1:01 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > Dear Rashneek, > > I agree with you that NO cause is worth human lives. This does not > mean that I am advocating non-violence, I believe that violence can > be resorted to, morally and ethically, in self defence. Were the > armed power of the Maoists always used in Self Defence and in the > defence of the communities they say they represent, when faced with > the violence of the state, I would have no hesitation in supporting > it. But the policy of 'Protracted Peoples War' is not self defence. > And blowing up a bus with unarmed civilians in it, is not self > defence. These are offensive demonstrations of armed might designed > to coerce a population and is in my view indefensible. > > I am in principle opposed to the policy of war, even a 'People's War' > because I believe that militarization and the formation of armies is > in all instances a counter-revolutionary measure. > > Ramanna, the spokespersons of the Maoists said today that he 'regrets > the killings of the civilians' that happened in the bus bombing in > Cchatisgarh. That is like Madeleine Albright regretting the death of > Iraqi civilians as 'collateral damage'. The CPI(Maoist) has taken > responsibility for the massacres. So there can be no doubt about who > did what. Their actions are totally worthy of condemnation, and they > must be combatted politically. I also agree with you that the > Ikhwanis and the Salwa Judum may have people who joined them for > their own motives, just as those who join the separatists and the > Maoists also have people who join them for their own reasons. > > That does not mean that these organizations (like the Ikhwanis and > the Salwa Judum) are not on occasion either set up or run, or > amenable to becoming instruments of the state, and when that is the > case, they must be treated as instruments of state policy. > > Having said that, I think that organizations must be judged according > to the consequences of their actions, not according to the > motivations of their members. I have no hesitation in saying (now > that we know that the Maoists were responsible) that the consequences > of the recent actions undertaken by the Maoists are deplorable. No > ifs, no buts. > > best > > Shuddha > > > On 19-May-10, at 10:44 AM, rashneek kher wrote: > > > Dear Shudda, > > > > I have just a small point to make here.Before I do that I must say > > I dont trust the state neither do I hold a brief for the Indian > > state which I believe is hugely responisble for my homelessnes. > > If people can become separitists by themselves or join them or > > become Maoists or join any other force which isnt on the side of > > the state why dont we accept that in the same manner people can > > join Ikhwanis or Salwa Judum.Both groups(though undoubtedly > > supported or even run by the state) have the same"sons of soil" as > > their opponents like Hizb or Naxalas have. > > Anyone who uses violence as a means of achieving any goal no matter > > howsoever noble needs to be despised(even if it is the state). > > NO cause is worth a human life. > > > > > > Best Regards > > > > Rashneek > > > > On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 6:09 PM, Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi > > wrote: > > Dear Shuddha, > > > > how intellect can be lulled by your post to think that maosists are > > genuinely working for the poor, under privileged and tribals, > > indeed, it is > > posts like these which deflect the disgust against the atrocities of > > naxalites. > > Your words, > > "The presence of 15 special police officers in the bus that was bombed > > cannot be offered as a justification for the bombing, because a large > > number of people who were harmed in the attack had nothing to do with > > any arm of the state, they were just ordinary passengers. This is a > > simple and disgusting act of terrorism. It cannot be explained away > > in any sense as part of a campaign of liberation." > > Are the special police officers not the citizens of this nation, > > who are > > employed by the stste to maintain law and order and to contain the > > deviants.?Have they got no families , wife and children, for whom > > they are > > toiling in dangerous terrains of deviant domination.? > > Naxalites have only one goal, to capture power for the leadership > > and their > > sympathisers, who are cowards, who can not contest any election and > > seek > > public mandate, nor are they having guts to own the actions, unlike a > > Bhagath singh whom they invoke when caught, for BHAGATH Singh did > > not run > > away and hide, faced the system, went thru the trial and prosecution, > > claimed if he is born again, he will again act the same way of > > actions to > > seek freedom for the society and nation from the british rule. look > > at the > > Kobads and varavara, who live in hiding, meet only "friendly' > > journalists > > and order executions of "informers." Naxalites killing the > > innocents is not > > stste action of act against deviants, if they want, they can change > > the > > "system" by democratic process but not by violence, if they do not > > understand that they are the deviants in the democratic rule of laws, > > deserve the prosecution by apprehending of the deviants.Naxalites > > have used > > the words of war and enemy not the state, rule of laws in democracy > > demands > > that the deviants be brought under the contained deviation, if > > necessary by > > force in the present circumstances, as rabids have to be put to > > sleep, so > > are the naxals and such deviants. > > regards, > > rajen > > On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 9:50 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > wrote: > > > > > Dear All, > > > > > > While I have on several occasions expressed my disgust at the way in > > > which the Government of India is conducting it's 'Operation Green > > > Hunt', I have to say that the news of the attacks by alleged Maoists > > > in Chattisgarh, in which 6 villagers have been killed, and more > > > recently a bus, with several civilians (and some special police > > > officers) has been bombed, is deeply disturbing. > > > > > > It is a totally different matter from attacking men in uniform, > > (such > > > as the CRPF jawans who were attacked not so long ago, resulting > > in 76 > > > casualties). Though I do not support any war, including the Maoist > > > initiated 'Peoples War' or for that matter, the Government of > > India's > > > 'Operation Green Hunt', in any war, armed men in uniform in a > > combat > > > zone are fair targets. The death of the 76 CRPF jawans, though > > > regrettable, is not in any way different from the death of any > > > guerrila soldiers in the PLGA in any combat operation. I refuse > > to be > > > blackmailed into thinking of such an event as an evidence of Maoist > > > 'atrocities'. > > > > > > But by no stretch of imagination can the same principles of > > combat be > > > extended in operations that involve unarmed civilians, (such as the > > > incidents that have come to light today) no matter who conducts > > them. > > > Regardless of whether the state or the Maoists conduct such > > > operations, they must be condemned by all sensible people in the > > > harshest terms. The Maoists, and the state must be compelled, > > through > > > relentless civic pressure, to publicly abide by the Geneva > > > Conventions in the matter on the treatment of non-combatants in a > > > conflict situation. (And yes, there are conventions that shape the > > > conduct of non-state actors, or the conduct of the state in relation > > > to non-state actors) > > > > > > The presence of 15 special police officers in the bus that was > > bombed > > > cannot be offered as a justification for the bombing, because a > > large > > > number of people who were harmed in the attack had nothing to do > > with > > > any arm of the state, they were just ordinary passengers. This is a > > > simple and disgusting act of terrorism. It cannot be explained away > > > in any sense as part of a campaign of liberation. > > > > > > If it is true that these attacks have been carried out by the > > > Maoists, then, it is clear that they want to ratchet up the general > > > intensity of violence in the regions where they have a presence. > > They > > > want the government to unleash a military style offensive, because > > > nothing would serve their purpose better. There can be no other > > > explanation for the manner of these attacks. This is a disastrous > > and > > > cynical policy, which will wreck havoc with the lives of the people > > > of the area and cannot be justified by any means whatsoever. If the > > > government of India responds by increasing the level and > > intensity of > > > the conflict, it will become an accessory of the Maoists design to > > > totally militarize the areas of central, southern and eastern India > > > where they currently have a presence. > > > > > > If nothing else, this shows how the policy of 'Protracted People's > > > War' is bound to degenerate (and in fact is already degenerating) > > > into an orgy of random violence, exactly as it did in Peru and > > > Colombia, where the 'Sendero Luminoso' ('Shining Path') and 'FARC' > > > rebels competed with the state and right-wing militias in a sad > > > spiralling descent into armed chaos and brigandage that did nothing > > > to fulfil any revolutionary goal. If anything it strengthened the > > > might of the state and the right wing militias in Peru and Colombia. > > > The Maoists actions (attacks on unarmed civilians) cannot bring > > about > > > any other results either. The ultimate and only beneficiary of this > > > process will be the state and the corporations who want total > > control > > > over the forests of Central India. > > > > > > However, we must not rush to conclusions. If the Maoists disclaim > > > responsibility for these attacks, then we will have to see > > whether or > > > not such a disclaimer has any objective basis. Independent > > > investigations will have to be carrired out. If, by any means, it is > > > possible that these attacks are 'false flag' operations, > > conducted by > > > rogue elements of the state machinery, or even endorsed by the > > state, > > > then the responsibility for the violence will lie squarely on the > > > state. It must, however, be understood by the Maoists (even if they > > > have not perpetrated these massacres) that the style of their > > > politics can and does ennable the state to conduct precisely such > > > 'false flag' operations. If there are any amongst the leadership of > > > the Maoists who are sensitive to the possibilities of forging an > > > alternative radical politics they must begin considering the > > > necessity of abandoning the disastrous method of 'protracted peoples > > > war' and explore ways to an open, transparent, militant and public > > > politics that does not involve the endless cycle of retreats and > > > massacres. > > > > > > Wherever the truth may life, this is a very sad day indeed, > > > > > > best > > > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > > > Raqs Media Collective > > > shuddha at sarai.net > > > www.sarai.net > > > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Rajen. > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > -- > > Rashneek Kher > > http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com > > http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From yasir.media at gmail.com Wed May 19 18:32:02 2010 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?INmK2Kcg2LPYsSB+IMm5xLFzyZDKjg==?=) Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 18:02:02 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: [PR] Is FaceBook Down Tonight? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: it was working during the last hour on my service: wateen, but not any more :) On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 5:43 PM, Claude Almansi wrote: > Now also reported on > < > http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/1260582/Pakistan-court-orders-block-of-Facebook > >, > via Reuters: > > "A Pakistani court ordered the government on Wednesday to block > Facebook after press reports of a competition being held to draw the > Prophet Mohammad, a lawyer said. > > Pakistani media recently reported that a caricature competition is > being held on May 20 about Mohammad on Facebook. > > "The court has ordered the government to immediately block Facebook > until May 31 because of this blasphemous competition," Azhar Siddique, > a representative of the Islamic Lawyers Forum who filed a petition in > the Lahore High Court, told Reuters. > > "The court has also ordered the foreign ministry to investigate why > such a competition is being held." > > A spokesman for the official telecommunications watchdog, Pakistan > Telecommunication Authority, said the government on Tuesday ordered > Internet service providers to block websites showing these > caricatures, but that they had not received the court orders as yet. > > Any representation of the Prophet Mohammad is deemed un-Islamic and > blasphemous by Muslims. > > But some warned the court's response could backfire. > > "Blocking the entire website would anger users, especially young and > adults, because the social networking website is so popular among them > and they spend most of their time on it," said the CEO of Nayatel, > Wahaj-us-Siraj. > > "Basically, our judges aren't technically sound. They have just > ordered it, but it should have been done in a better way by just > blocking a particular URL or link." > > "The PTA's decision (to block the URL) was rational and good, but > let's see how they will implement the court decision." > > On the information page on Facebook for the contest -- which was still > visible on Wednesday -- the organizers described it as a "snarky" > response to Muslim bloggers who "warned" the creators of the Comedy > Central television show "South Park" over a recent depiction of the > Prophet in a bear suit. > > "We are not trying to slander the average Muslim," the Facebook page > creators wrote. "We simply want to show the extremists that threaten > to harm people because of their Mohammad depictions that we're not > afraid of them. That they can't take away our right to freedom of > speech by trying to scare us into silence." > > Publications of similar cartoons in Danish newspapers in 2005 sparked > deadly protests in Muslim countries. Around 50 people were killed > during violent protests in Muslim countries in 2006 over the cartoons, > five of them in Pakistan. > > Al Qaeda claimed responsibility for a suicide attack on Denmark's > embassy in Islamabad in 2008, killing six people, saying it was in > revenge for publication of caricatures." > > On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 9:46 AM, Awab Alvi wrote: > > > http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2010\05\19\story_19-5-2010_pg13_6 > > > > LHC issues notice to PTA on plea to ban Facebook > > > > LAHORE: Justice Ijaz Ahmad Chaudhry of the Lahore High Court on Tuesday > > issued notice to the Pakistan Telecommunication Authority secretary to > reply > > until Wednesday (today), on a petition seeking a ban on Facebook, which > is > > holding a competition of caricatures of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). Islamic > > Lawyers Movement filed the petition through Chaudhry Zulfiqar advocate, > who > > stated that a competition was announced on Facebook on April 20 which > would > > continue until May 20, asking all the members of the website to create > their > > caricatures to participate in the competition. Zulfiqar said under the > law > > no practice against Islam could be allowed in the country. He told the > court > > that the website, having various features against the injunctions of > Islam, > > is banned in various countries. Zulfiqar submitted that there were 45 > > million users of Facebook in Pakistan, adding that the PTA was > responsible > > for its spread in Pakistan. He said the PTA has already blocked various > > websites in the country but was reluctant to ban Facebook. He said > students > > and various segments of the society have already started protests in the > > country, which could be harmful for the public property. He requested the > > court to issue directions to PTA to put an immediate ban on the use of > > Facebook in the Pakistan. staff report > > > > Awab Alvi > > > > Blog: http://teeth.com.pk/blog > > Twitter: http://twitter.com/DrAwab > > > > -- > This is the People's Resistance Mailing List > > Send only RELEVANT discussion emails to > PeoplesResistance at googlegroups.com > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > PeoplesResistance+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com > > Or visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/PeoplesResistance > From aarti.sethi at gmail.com Wed May 19 18:44:35 2010 From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com (Aarti Sethi) Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 18:44:35 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] on maoist regret Message-ID: Dear All, There is no room for doubt anymore that the landmine attack on a bus plying on the Dantewada-Sukhma road was planned and executed by the CPIM (Maoist). About 36 people have died, a majority of them civilians. This was not a mistake.The Maoists have said this was a calculated attack to target the Koya Commando wing of the SPOs. This means that the Maoists knew there were civilians on board. The Maoists have taken responsibility for the attack and in a statement to the press, Ramanna has said they “deeply regret the loss of civilian lives”. Thats comforting. It is good to know that the Maoists are capable of offering at least platitudes in justification of their mercernary devaluation of human lives. They are in very good company as it happens. How is this statement of regret different from the tears routinely shed by U.S. security forces when civilians are killed in Iraq? How is Ramanna’s statement any different from Hilary Clinton’s expressions of sorrow for civilian casualties in Afghanistan? Maybe the Maoists need to reflect on what it says about the moral stature of their “movement” when they sound just like the “Imperialist Forces”. There are no halfway positions here. Regret is simply not good enough. Regret is a pathetic, insufficient post-facto attempt to elide a serious and growing moral bankruptcy within the maoist movement. Civilian deaths are not simply an unfortunate, and regrettable, fall-out of war. When civilian lives are seen as dispensable within a larger political calculus, this then is the moment when instrumental reason and mercenary self-interest have taken over and no claims can be made to “justice” or anything else. When human beings are seen as dispensable at the altar of some larger political, military, social aim, some higher purpose, that way lies the gas chamber. The Maoists have urged people not to travel in vehicles taken over by security forces. And on their part, the Chattisgarh government is planning to direct security forces to avoid public transport. However in a state where years of conflict have left public transport shattered, people have little choice but to get onto whichever bus comes along. Exactly what would the Maoists have people do? Threats to people’s lives because they are simply attempting to go about their everyday lives are indefensible. This is a terrible day indeed. Aarti From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed May 19 18:46:29 2010 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 18:46:29 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: [PR] Is FaceBook Down Tonight? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yasir , Just stumbled upon a blog ....so thought of sharing it with readers . Others , please note that I am not the athor of this blog... Source : http://umairkazi.wordpress.com/ Congratulations, Lahore High Court. You just sent Pakistan back hundreds of years. To counter the “Draw Muhammad Day” group/event on popular social networking site Facebook, the Lahore High Court has ordered the website to be banned till May 31 2010, at the petition of an “Islamic” forum of lawyers. Here’s what I’m wondering: By this logic, Pakistani authorities should ban every immoral thing on the internet. Bring in the moral police! Why ban facebook altogether for the actions of a member? Is the foreign ministry also thinking of banning USA altogether because the alleged initiator of this movement lives in Seattle? Unless I am overcome by curiosity and actively search for the page and the pictures, how would my life change? The event is opt-in, not opt-out. Consistency is necessary. Now unless we block Facebook for every “Fuck (insert religious concept here)” group, we’re practicing selective justice. You’re restricting Pakistanis from accessing 400,000,000 Facebook users. The world is moving towards a global village and you’re locking us out. Might as well live in a cave. Don’t play favorites! Block Google too, they’ll probably list the offensive images too. Now we can never complain about being labelled terrorists because some of us choose that path. If all of Facebook is evil because some facebook users are holding this event, then all of Pakistan is evil because some of our people like to blow up stuff. Nobody gives a shit about a tiny facebook group. People do, however, sit up and take notice when governments ban stuff on the internet. You just made the Hate a lot louder than it would’ve been otherwise. Now every time a punk wants to make a big fuss in the international arena he can just make a similar page and wait for the Pakistani government to react. I could be wrong about all this. I still think we should live and let live. The world is tough, confusing, and chaotic. Closing your eyes won’t make the ugliness go away. On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 6:32 PM, يا سر ~ ɹısɐʎ wrote: > it was working during the last hour on my service: wateen, but not any more >  :) > > > On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 5:43 PM, Claude Almansi wrote: > >> Now also reported on >> < >> http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/1260582/Pakistan-court-orders-block-of-Facebook >> >, >> via Reuters: >> >> "A Pakistani court ordered the government on Wednesday to block >> Facebook after press reports of a competition being held to draw the >> Prophet Mohammad, a lawyer said. >> >> Pakistani media recently reported that a caricature competition is >> being held on May 20 about Mohammad on Facebook. >> >> "The court has ordered the government to immediately block Facebook >> until May 31 because of this blasphemous competition," Azhar Siddique, >> a representative of the Islamic Lawyers Forum who filed a petition in >> the Lahore High Court, told Reuters. >> >> "The court has also ordered the foreign ministry to investigate why >> such a competition is being held." >> >> A spokesman for the official telecommunications watchdog, Pakistan >> Telecommunication Authority, said the government on Tuesday ordered >> Internet service providers to block websites showing these >> caricatures, but that they had not received the court orders as yet. >> >> Any representation of the Prophet Mohammad is deemed un-Islamic and >> blasphemous by Muslims. >> >> But some warned the court's response could backfire. >> >> "Blocking the entire website would anger users, especially young and >> adults, because the social networking website is so popular among them >> and they spend most of their time on it," said the CEO of Nayatel, >> Wahaj-us-Siraj. >> >> "Basically, our judges aren't technically sound. They have just >> ordered it, but it should have been done in a better way by just >> blocking a particular URL or link." >> >> "The PTA's decision (to block the URL) was rational and good, but >> let's see how they will implement the court decision." >> >> On the information page on Facebook for the contest -- which was still >> visible on Wednesday -- the organizers described it as a "snarky" >> response to Muslim bloggers who "warned" the creators of the Comedy >> Central television show "South Park" over a recent depiction of the >> Prophet in a bear suit. >> >> "We are not trying to slander the average Muslim," the Facebook page >> creators wrote. "We simply want to show the extremists that threaten >> to harm people because of their Mohammad depictions that we're not >> afraid of them. That they can't take away our right to freedom of >> speech by trying to scare us into silence." >> >> Publications of similar cartoons in Danish newspapers in 2005 sparked >> deadly protests in Muslim countries. Around 50 people were killed >> during violent protests in Muslim countries in 2006 over the cartoons, >> five of them in Pakistan. >> >> Al Qaeda claimed responsibility for a suicide attack on Denmark's >> embassy in Islamabad in 2008, killing six people, saying it was in >> revenge for publication of caricatures." >> >> On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 9:46 AM, Awab Alvi wrote: >> > >> http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2010\05\19\story_19-5-2010_pg13_6 >> > >> > LHC issues notice to PTA on plea to ban Facebook >> > >> > LAHORE: Justice Ijaz Ahmad Chaudhry of the Lahore High Court on Tuesday >> > issued notice to the Pakistan Telecommunication Authority secretary to >> reply >> > until Wednesday (today), on a petition seeking a ban on Facebook, which >> is >> > holding a competition of caricatures of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). Islamic >> > Lawyers Movement filed the petition through Chaudhry Zulfiqar advocate, >> who >> > stated that a competition was announced on Facebook on April 20 which >> would >> > continue until May 20, asking all the members of the website to create >> their >> > caricatures to participate in the competition. Zulfiqar said under the >> law >> > no practice against Islam could be allowed in the country. He told the >> court >> > that the website, having various features against the injunctions of >> Islam, >> > is banned in various countries. Zulfiqar submitted that there were 45 >> > million users of Facebook in Pakistan, adding that the PTA was >> responsible >> > for its spread in Pakistan. He said the PTA has already blocked various >> > websites in the country but was reluctant to ban Facebook. He said >> students >> > and various segments of the society have already started protests in the >> > country, which could be harmful for the public property. He requested the >> > court to issue directions to PTA to put an immediate ban on the use of >> > Facebook in the Pakistan. staff report >> > >> > Awab Alvi >> > >> > Blog: http://teeth.com.pk/blog >> > Twitter: http://twitter.com/DrAwab >> > >> >> -- >> This is the People's Resistance Mailing List >> >> Send only RELEVANT discussion emails to >> PeoplesResistance at googlegroups.com >> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> PeoplesResistance+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com >> >> Or visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/PeoplesResistance >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From yasir.media at gmail.com Wed May 19 19:07:35 2010 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?INmK2Kcg2LPYsSB+IMm5xLFzyZDKjg==?=) Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 18:37:35 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: [PR] Is FaceBook Down Tonight? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: another view from pk http://teeth.com.pk/blog/2010/05/19/lahore-high-court-facebook-blocked On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 6:16 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Yasir , > > Just stumbled upon a blog ....so thought of sharing it with readers . > Others , please note that I am not the athor of this blog... > > Source : http://umairkazi.wordpress.com/ > > Congratulations, Lahore High Court. You just sent Pakistan back > hundreds of years. > > To counter the “Draw Muhammad Day” group/event on popular social > networking site Facebook, the Lahore High Court has ordered the > website to be banned till May 31 2010, at the petition of an “Islamic” > forum of lawyers. Here’s what I’m wondering: > > By this logic, Pakistani authorities should ban every immoral thing on > the internet. Bring in the moral police! > Why ban facebook altogether for the actions of a member? Is the > foreign ministry also thinking of banning USA altogether because the > alleged initiator of this movement lives in Seattle? > Unless I am overcome by curiosity and actively search for the page and > the pictures, how would my life change? The event is opt-in, not > opt-out. > Consistency is necessary. Now unless we block Facebook for every “Fuck > (insert religious concept here)” group, we’re practicing selective > justice. > You’re restricting Pakistanis from accessing 400,000,000 Facebook > users. The world is moving towards a global village and you’re locking > us out. Might as well live in a cave. > Don’t play favorites! Block Google too, they’ll probably list the > offensive images too. > Now we can never complain about being labelled terrorists because some > of us choose that path. If all of Facebook is evil because some > facebook users are holding this event, then all of Pakistan is evil > because some of our people like to blow up stuff. > Nobody gives a shit about a tiny facebook group. People do, however, > sit up and take notice when governments ban stuff on the internet. You > just made the Hate a lot louder than it would’ve been otherwise. > Now every time a punk wants to make a big fuss in the international > arena he can just make a similar page and wait for the Pakistani > government to react. > I could be wrong about all this. > I still think we should live and let live. The world is tough, > confusing, and chaotic. Closing your eyes won’t make the ugliness go > away. > > On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 6:32 PM, يا سر ~ ɹısɐʎ > wrote: > > it was working during the last hour on my service: wateen, but not any > more > > :) > > > > > > On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 5:43 PM, Claude Almansi < > claude.almansi at gmail.com>wrote: > > > >> Now also reported on > >> < > >> > http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/1260582/Pakistan-court-orders-block-of-Facebook > >> >, > >> via Reuters: > >> > >> "A Pakistani court ordered the government on Wednesday to block > >> Facebook after press reports of a competition being held to draw the > >> Prophet Mohammad, a lawyer said. > >> > >> Pakistani media recently reported that a caricature competition is > >> being held on May 20 about Mohammad on Facebook. > >> > >> "The court has ordered the government to immediately block Facebook > >> until May 31 because of this blasphemous competition," Azhar Siddique, > >> a representative of the Islamic Lawyers Forum who filed a petition in > >> the Lahore High Court, told Reuters. > >> > >> "The court has also ordered the foreign ministry to investigate why > >> such a competition is being held." > >> > >> A spokesman for the official telecommunications watchdog, Pakistan > >> Telecommunication Authority, said the government on Tuesday ordered > >> Internet service providers to block websites showing these > >> caricatures, but that they had not received the court orders as yet. > >> > >> Any representation of the Prophet Mohammad is deemed un-Islamic and > >> blasphemous by Muslims. > >> > >> But some warned the court's response could backfire. > >> > >> "Blocking the entire website would anger users, especially young and > >> adults, because the social networking website is so popular among them > >> and they spend most of their time on it," said the CEO of Nayatel, > >> Wahaj-us-Siraj. > >> > >> "Basically, our judges aren't technically sound. They have just > >> ordered it, but it should have been done in a better way by just > >> blocking a particular URL or link." > >> > >> "The PTA's decision (to block the URL) was rational and good, but > >> let's see how they will implement the court decision." > >> > >> On the information page on Facebook for the contest -- which was still > >> visible on Wednesday -- the organizers described it as a "snarky" > >> response to Muslim bloggers who "warned" the creators of the Comedy > >> Central television show "South Park" over a recent depiction of the > >> Prophet in a bear suit. > >> > >> "We are not trying to slander the average Muslim," the Facebook page > >> creators wrote. "We simply want to show the extremists that threaten > >> to harm people because of their Mohammad depictions that we're not > >> afraid of them. That they can't take away our right to freedom of > >> speech by trying to scare us into silence." > >> > >> Publications of similar cartoons in Danish newspapers in 2005 sparked > >> deadly protests in Muslim countries. Around 50 people were killed > >> during violent protests in Muslim countries in 2006 over the cartoons, > >> five of them in Pakistan. > >> > >> Al Qaeda claimed responsibility for a suicide attack on Denmark's > >> embassy in Islamabad in 2008, killing six people, saying it was in > >> revenge for publication of caricatures." > >> > >> On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 9:46 AM, Awab Alvi wrote: > >> > > >> > http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2010\05\19\story_19-5-2010_pg13_6 > < > http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2010%5C05%5C19%5Cstory_19-5-2010_pg13_6 > > > >> > > >> > LHC issues notice to PTA on plea to ban Facebook > >> > > >> > LAHORE: Justice Ijaz Ahmad Chaudhry of the Lahore High Court on > Tuesday > >> > issued notice to the Pakistan Telecommunication Authority secretary to > >> reply > >> > until Wednesday (today), on a petition seeking a ban on Facebook, > which > >> is > >> > holding a competition of caricatures of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). > Islamic > >> > Lawyers Movement filed the petition through Chaudhry Zulfiqar > advocate, > >> who > >> > stated that a competition was announced on Facebook on April 20 which > >> would > >> > continue until May 20, asking all the members of the website to create > >> their > >> > caricatures to participate in the competition. Zulfiqar said under the > >> law > >> > no practice against Islam could be allowed in the country. He told the > >> court > >> > that the website, having various features against the injunctions of > >> Islam, > >> > is banned in various countries. Zulfiqar submitted that there were 45 > >> > million users of Facebook in Pakistan, adding that the PTA was > >> responsible > >> > for its spread in Pakistan. He said the PTA has already blocked > various > >> > websites in the country but was reluctant to ban Facebook. He said > >> students > >> > and various segments of the society have already started protests in > the > >> > country, which could be harmful for the public property. He requested > the > >> > court to issue directions to PTA to put an immediate ban on the use of > >> > Facebook in the Pakistan. staff report > >> > > >> > Awab Alvi > >> > > >> > Blog: http://teeth.com.pk/blog > >> > Twitter: http://twitter.com/DrAwab > >> > > >> > >> -- > >> This is the People's Resistance Mailing List > >> > >> Send only RELEVANT discussion emails to > >> PeoplesResistance at googlegroups.com > >> > >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> PeoplesResistance+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com > > > > >> > >> Or visit this group at > >> http://groups.google.com/group/PeoplesResistance > >> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From akmalik45 at yahoo.com Thu May 20 10:40:11 2010 From: akmalik45 at yahoo.com (A.K. Malik) Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 22:10:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Alleged Maoist Atrocities In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <85889.39030.qm@web112118.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hi Mr Dasgupta, You can't doubt each and everything happening in/by the the "state" otherwise it would be difficult to survive in the already stressful life. In lighter vein-Men secretly going in for DNA tests to check paternity of their new born kids.Where the hell are we going to stop doubting? Regards, (A.K.MALIK) --- On Tue, 5/18/10, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > From: Partha Dasgupta > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Alleged Maoist Atrocities > To: "Pawan Durani" , "Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi" > Cc: "sarai list" > Date: Tuesday, May 18, 2010, 10:58 PM > Dear Pawan / Rajendra, > > The words the two of you use seem to indicate that we > should have blind > faith in the 'state'. > > Well, I for one do not, as even the 'state' is composed of > humans with > follies and vanities as has been exposed in the Gujarat > 'terrorist' killing > case as well as the Jessica Lal case where the culprits > were first freed. > > There are plenty of examples of people running the 'state' > going overboard - > even if we ignore extreme examples like Hitler where > atrocities have been > done by members of the 'state' against 'people' > > Do try and use logic instead of playing with words. > > Rgds, Partha > > > Partha Dasgupta > +919811047132 > > > On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 7:13 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > Why do you have so much doubt in the state ? Or may I > say why do you > > sow so much doubts ? While as you do not do the > gardeners job in case > > of separatists, maoists etc.. > > > > Pawan > > > > > > On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 6:21 PM, Shuddhabrata > Sengupta > > > wrote: > > > Dear Pawan, > > > What motives are you talking about? The only ones > that I can see in my > > > posting are a clear and categorical criticism and > denunciation of the CPI > > > (Maoist)'s cult of death and a clear, unambiguous > criticism with the way > > in > > > which the state is reacting to the situation. Do > you see anything else? I > > > don't have to embrace the devil  in order to > rescue myself from the deep > > > blue sea. > > > Having said that, I am not blind to the fact that > the Indian state (or > > rogue > > > elements from within the state apparatus) have on > occasion resorted to > > > elaborate masquerades to create sensational > events that bind popular > > > consensus in favour of a hard-line course of > action. Remember a place > > called > > > Cchattisinghpura? Remember what happened there > just around the time when > > > Bill Clinton came visiting? ast I knew, It was in > the province that you > > > claim as your homeland. The questions around > Cchatisinghpura still > > remain, > > > and they will not be covered up merely because > the state was able to > > extract > > > a 'custodial confession' from an alleged > 'detained militant'. > > > What happened routinely in Jammu & Kashmir > (especially as authored by the > > > notorious 'Ikhwanis', the Kashmiri equivalent of > the Salwa Judum) can > > easily > > > happen elsewhere. This possibility cannot be > ruled out, although it must > > not > > > be seen as the only valid explanation either. We > need neither blind faith > > in > > > the goodness of the Indian state, nor elaborate > conspiracy theories, that > > > indict it in every tragedy. > > > What we need are hard facts. And until the facts > are crystal clear, or > > are > > > made clear through explicit assumptions of > responsibility by the Maoists > > > themselves of these massacres,or through their > implied assent through > > > silence to the fact that they were indeed the > perpetrators, it would be > > > premature to jump to conclusions in any > direction. You might have > > noticed, > > > that despite my aversion towards Hindutva, I have > never, ever made > > capital > > > out of the fact that certain Hindutva activists > have been implicated in a > > > series of terrorist incidents. My attitude to any > event of this nature, > > is, > > > we must not judge a person to be guilty until he > is comprehensively > > proven > > > not to be innocent. > > > If the Maoists remain silent, or own up to their > authorship of the last > > > round of violence, (as they did, unhesitatingly, > in the case of the > > killing > > > of the 76 CRPF jawans last month) then of course > the recent massacres can > > be > > > unambiguously attributed to them. And this must > be condemned. > > > If they don't, if they say that they had no hand > in what has happened. > > Then > > > it is a different story altogether. It calls for > a different kind of > > > response. Not necessarily of endorsing Maoist > politics, but of > > recognizing > > > that maybe, they too might be targets of > slander. > > > Even in that instance, as I have pointed out, > with absolute clarity, the > > > politics of of the Maoists could still be held > responsible for creating > > the > > > climate of violence that enables such incidents > to occur. And I have no > > > problem in accusing the Maoists of an > irresponsible form of politics. it > > is > > > just that I have exactly the same attitude > towards the Indian state. I > > will > > > not jump from treetops saying that the state > staged a 'false flag' > > > operation. I will not jump from tree- tops saying > the Maoists are beasts > > > either. I would look very carefully into the > details of a very messy war. > > I > > > am merely asking that all of us undertake a > responsibility to being > > > committed to this 'carefulness'. > > > If you saw this morning's post on this list by > Aman Sethi of a news story > > on > > > allegations that  adivasis were airlifted, > abducted and tortured in the > > name > > > of anti-Naxal operations you would no doubt > realize that we are not > > > operating in a situation where there are good > guys and bad guys, what we > > > have on the ground are just guys with IEDs and > guys with Helicopters. > > > I don't hide behind a fig leaf of a justification > of the Maoists when I > > am > > > critical of the state, but I see that for many > who are ratcheting up the > > > tempo of paranoia in the name of hunting down > anyone who is critical of > > > state action as being automatically a Maoist or > at best a Maoist > > > sympathizer, there seems to be no problem at all > in hiding behind the > > > obscenity of a war carried out by the state > against its own citizenry. I > > > find the double standard of crying yourself > hoarse against Maoist > > > sympathizers and remaining silent about the > state's mandarins who provide > > > the gloss and the icing over the state's > massacres, troubling, to say the > > > least. What compels respectable people to adopt > such naked double > > standards? > > > I wonder what their motives might be. I'd be > grateful for any answers, if > > > they were available. > > > best, > > > Shuddha > > > > > > On 18-May-10, at 9:12 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > > > > Irony ...... The last para tells all the > motives........same people > > > ....same style.....like the Batla house...... > > > On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 9:50 PM, Shuddhabrata > Sengupta > > > > wrote: > > > > > > Dear All, > > > While I have on several occasions expressed my > disgust at the way in > > > which the Government of India is conducting it's > 'Operation Green > > > Hunt', I have to say that the news of the attacks > by alleged Maoists > > > in Chattisgarh, in which 6 villagers have been > killed, and more > > > recently a bus, with several civilians (and some > special police > > > officers)  has been bombed, is deeply > disturbing. > > > It is a totally different matter from attacking > men in uniform, (such > > > as the CRPF jawans who were attacked not so long > ago, resulting in 76 > > > casualties). Though I do not support any war, > including the Maoist > > > initiated 'Peoples War' or for that matter, the > Government of India's > > > 'Operation Green Hunt',  in any war, armed > men in uniform in a combat > > > zone are fair targets. The death of the 76 CRPF > jawans, though > > > regrettable, is not in any way different from the > death of any > > > guerrila soldiers in the PLGA in any combat > operation. I refuse to be > > > blackmailed into thinking of such an event as an > evidence of Maoist > > > 'atrocities'. > > > But by no stretch of imagination can the same > principles of combat be > > > extended in operations that involve unarmed > civilians, (such as the > > > incidents that have come to light today) no > matter who conducts them. > > > Regardless of whether the state or the Maoists > conduct such > > > operations, they must be condemned by all > sensible people in the > > > harshest terms. The Maoists, and the state must > be compelled, through > > > relentless civic pressure, to publicly abide by > the Geneva > > > Conventions in the matter on the treatment of > non-combatants in a > > > conflict situation. (And yes, there are > conventions that shape the > > > conduct of non-state actors, or the conduct of > the state in relation > > > to non-state actors) > > > The presence of 15 special police officers in the > bus that was bombed > > > cannot be offered as a justification for the > bombing, because a large > > > number of people who were harmed in the attack > had nothing to do with > > > any arm of the state, they were just ordinary > passengers. This is a > > > simple and disgusting act of terrorism. It cannot > be explained away > > > in any sense as part of a campaign of > liberation. > > > If it is true that these attacks have been > carried out by the > > > Maoists, then, it is clear that they want to > ratchet up the general > > > intensity of violence in the regions where they > have a presence. They > > > want the government to unleash a military style > offensive, because > > > nothing would serve their purpose better. There > can be no other > > > explanation for the manner of these attacks. This > is a disastrous and > > > cynical policy, which will wreck havoc with the > lives of the people > > > of the area and cannot be justified by any means > whatsoever. If the > > > government of India responds by increasing the > level and intensity of > > > the conflict, it will become an accessory of the > Maoists design to > > > totally militarize the areas of central, southern > and eastern India > > > where they currently have a presence. > > > If nothing else, this shows how the policy of > 'Protracted People's > > > War' is bound to degenerate (and in fact is > already degenerating) > > > into an orgy of random violence, exactly as it > did in Peru and > > > Colombia, where the 'Sendero Luminoso' ('Shining > Path') and 'FARC' > > > rebels competed with the state and right-wing > militias in a sad > > > spiralling descent into armed chaos and > brigandage that did nothing > > > to fulfil any revolutionary goal. If anything it > strengthened the > > > might of the state and the right wing militias in > Peru and Colombia. > > > The Maoists actions (attacks on unarmed > civilians) cannot bring about > > > any other results either. The ultimate and only > beneficiary of this > > > process will be the state and the corporations > who want total control > > > over the forests of Central India. > > > However, we must not rush to conclusions. If the > Maoists disclaim > > > responsibility for these attacks, then we will > have to see whether or > > > not such a disclaimer has any objective basis. > Independent > > > investigations will have to be carrired out. If, > by any means, it is > > > possible that these attacks are 'false flag' > operations, conducted by > > > rogue elements of the state machinery, or even > endorsed by the state, > > > then the responsibility for the violence will lie > squarely on the > > > state. It must, however, be understood by the > Maoists (even if they > > > have not perpetrated these massacres) that the > style of their > > > politics can and does ennable the state to > conduct precisely such > > > 'false flag' operations. If there are any amongst > the leadership of > > > the Maoists who are sensitive to the > possibilities of forging an > > > alternative radical politics they must begin > considering the > > > necessity of abandoning the disastrous method of > 'protracted peoples > > > war' and explore ways to an open, transparent, > militant and public > > > politics that does not involve the endless cycle > of retreats and > > > massacres. > > > Wherever the truth may life, this is a very sad > day indeed, > > > best > > > Shuddha > > > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > > > Raqs Media Collective > > > shuddha at sarai.net > > > www.sarai.net > > > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with > > subscribe > > > in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > > > Raqs Media Collective > > > shuddha at sarai.net > > > www.sarai.net > > > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Thu May 20 12:05:57 2010 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 07:35:57 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Alleged Maoist Atrocities In-Reply-To: <85889.39030.qm@web112118.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <85889.39030.qm@web112118.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Mr. AK Malik In an even lighter vein if we can doubt the claim of a sabzi wallah who peddles aloo, gobi and matar then why can't we doubt the state which seems to be peddling murder as national service. Underprivileged people are being sent to murder other underprivileged, should we regard this as national service? Warm regards Taha From kaksanjay at gmail.com Thu May 20 12:25:39 2010 From: kaksanjay at gmail.com (Sanjay Kak) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 12:25:39 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Comments from the "fact-finder" Message-ID: Apologies for cross-posting, but this is a very illuminating perspective: a former Director General of the Border Security Force, appointed by the Home Ministry to investigate the failures of the April 2010 killing of 72 CRPF soldiers in Dantewada, Chattisgarh. Sanjay Kak http://www.telegraphindia.com/1100520/jsp/nation/story_12468855.jsp New Delhi, May 19: E.N. Rammohan is back from Dantewada, having wrapped up his job as the one-man commission appointed by the Centre to find out what went wrong before 76 security personnel were killed on April 6 by Maoists in one of the bloodiest ambushes the country has seen. The former BSF chief feels the government has gone "terribly'' wrong in its approach towards the Maoists and the larger cause of tribals. "Military operation is no solution to the Maoist insurgency. The problem is much larger and much deeper,'' he says. He calls the suggestion to use the air force "nonsense''. Q. You have submitted your report on Dantewada. What went wrong there? A. Everything went terribly wrong there, including the military action. Primarily, it was wrong on the part of the government to assume that the Maoist issue can be solved using force. How can you justify using force against your own people? The suggestion to use the air force against Naxalites is nothing but nonsense. Military action is no solution. Every insurgency has its reasons as they do not happen out of nothing. And as in the case of every other insurgency, the Maoist insurgency, too, has its reasons and unless and until the government addresses the root cause, it (efforts to solve the problem) is not going to succeed. Q. What, according to you, are the root causes? A. The root cause is that the Indian system has failed to deliver justice to the indigenous people. We have an institutionalised system of suppression in the form of caste. When you have landlords taking away your land, your women and treat you like animals while the official system looks the other way, it is bound to create repercussions. And now you have these MNCs which, after making deals with the government, come and throw the tribals out from the forest where they have been staying for centuries. Isn't it quite natural for them to protest? Q. But the government is doing all these in the name of development A. Who needs this kind of development when your basic rights are not addressed? If the government is so keen on developing the tribal areas, what it needs to do is to give the tribals the right to the land, including the minerals in the region. Give them the due share of profits from the mining activities and not some lower-rung jobs in the mining companies as a driver or a peon. This, along with the strict implementation of land ceiling act ,will solve the Maoist issue. Otherwise, the Maoist insurgency is going to stay here regardless of the kind of force being used air or ground. Q. But when you have hundreds of ordinary people being killed by the Naxalites, you cannot expect the government to be passive. A. Nobody is saying that. What I am saying is that the government should rework its strategies. The priority should be to win over the tribals. But this cannot be achieved by offering infrastructure development in the form of roads and schools. What the tribals want is dignity and basic rights to livelihood, and this is no uphill task if the government is determined. Maoists are here to stay as long as the system fails to deliver. Q. There is an apparent confusion within the government in handling the Maoists. While the home minister is asking for more force, a strong section within the party wants a different approach. A. This difference of opinion is a good sign. It shows that there are some people who differentiate between the Maoists and tribals. It is wrong to assume that tribals are siding with the Maoists because of their love for Maoist ideology. They are listening to Maoists today because Maoists were the only people who extended a helping hand while everyone else, including the state, only looted them. Now it is the turn of the government to act on their behalf if it really wants to win them over. Q. As an expert on insurgencies, how do you assess the Maoists' strategies? A. I rate the Indian Maoists' strategies as one of the best. They have an agenda and that is to capture Delhi. They are very clear about it and they are using the tribals in a clever manner to achieve that target. I feel the Maoists have been much more brilliant than the government in strategies and execution. If the government does not act promptly in the right manner, it will be too late. From chintangirishmodi at gmail.com Thu May 20 15:13:58 2010 From: chintangirishmodi at gmail.com (Chintan) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 15:13:58 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Initiatives that strengthen links between schools and homes/communities/neighbourhoods. Message-ID: >From http://blog.prathambooks.org/2010/05/chintans-post.html While in Hyderabad last week, I chanced upon a second-hand copy of Herbert Kohl’s “I won’t learn from you” And Other Thoughts on Creative Maladjustment . Kohl writes of exciting childhood weekends spent at department stores in Manhattan, rummaging through stuff his parents would have never been able to afford. By and by, he got pally with people at the stores. Not only did he learn to play sheet music on a grand piano and got free chess lessons, he was also allowed to try out almost anything as long as there were no customers around. Kohl writes, “Those experiences overcame my boredom with school and taught me how to find real teachers and places of learning, the first time it occurred to me that I might be able to take conscious control over my own education. To this day, my favourite sources of educational and writing ideas are bookstores, toy stores and department stores. I learned early on not to mistake schooling for learning, which takes place out of school at least as much as it does within it.” A core theme in educational reform is the alarming disconnect between what children are taught and the concerns of their own lives. This theme has struck a chord with me, and I’ve been reading up on initiatives that seek to strengthen links between schools and homes/communities/neighbourhoods. While my interest extends to a variety of projects, the chief sites of my exploration have been classrooms that deal with the teaching-learning of English, particularly what we refer to as writing or composition. This slim area of focus owes to my current preoccupation with an M.Phil. dissertation in English Language Education. This blog post is meant to chronicle some of what I’ve discovered along the way, and to invite you to share thoughts-feedback-more resources. I will try to resist the urge to waft into academese, but pardon my slippages, if any. *** One of my favourite resources is a book called The Freedom Writers Diary Here’s a moving narrative presented by Erin Gruwell, a new teacher at a multi-cultural, multi-racial school in Long Beach, California. It is a school full of young people who are considered troublesome, at-risk, violent, worse still ‘unteachable’. Gruwell looks past these labels, and begins to nurture her students with courage and love. She picks out books about other children in violent circumstances -- Anne Frank: The Diary of a Young Girl and Zlata’s Diary: A Child’s Life in Sarajevo – and helps them learn to see the parallels in these books to their own lives. Meeting people their own age in other places and other times, Gruwell’s students are motivated to pen down their own stories in the form of diary entries. There’s pain, and there’s healing too. One of Gruwell’s students remarks, “I’ve never read something in school that relates to something that happened in my life.” Perhaps this is something that many kids ( http://chintangirishmodi.wordpress.com/2009/05/12/off-the-mark/) mutter to themselves, unafraid to share it with parents and teachers. *** In India, Kalam: Margins Write , a Kolkata-based organization has done some outstanding work with young people in red light areas, on railway platforms, and in slum neighbourhoods. I first read about them three years ago, and continue to be inspired by them. Their creative writing curriculum for marginalized youth in urban India is available at (http://writingout.wordpress.com/) and their Neighbourhood Diaries project can be read about here ( http://rising.globalvoicesonline.org/kolkata/) From akmalik45 at yahoo.com Thu May 20 15:39:11 2010 From: akmalik45 at yahoo.com (A.K. Malik) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 03:09:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Comments from the "fact-finder" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <581796.24335.qm@web112118.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hi Mr Kak, I have read thr' the article and found it quite interesting and may be realistic in some aspects. But one question comes to my mind whenever I see comments from retired Govt Officers as to why do they get enlightened only after retirement and express thier views so openly.What were they advising the Govt when they were in service?-after all the views of senior officials does matter in the Govt- were they only towing their superior's lines. Regards, (A.K.MALIK) --- On Thu, 5/20/10, Sanjay Kak wrote: > From: Sanjay Kak > Subject: [Reader-list] Comments from the "fact-finder" > To: "Sarai Reader List" > Date: Thursday, May 20, 2010, 12:25 PM > Apologies for cross-posting, but this > is a very illuminating perspective: > a former Director General of the Border Security Force, > appointed by > the Home Ministry to investigate the failures of the April > 2010 > killing of 72 CRPF soldiers in Dantewada, Chattisgarh. > > Sanjay Kak > > http://www.telegraphindia.com/1100520/jsp/nation/story_12468855.jsp > > New Delhi, May 19: E.N. Rammohan is back from Dantewada, > having > wrapped up his job as the one-man commission appointed by > the Centre > to find out what went wrong before 76 security personnel > were killed > on April 6 by Maoists in one of the bloodiest ambushes the > country has > seen. > > The former BSF chief feels the government has gone > "terribly'' wrong > in its approach towards the Maoists and the larger cause of > tribals. > "Military operation is no solution to the Maoist > insurgency. The > problem is much larger and much deeper,'' he says. He calls > the > suggestion to use the air force "nonsense''. > > Q. You have submitted your report on Dantewada. What went > wrong there? > > A. Everything went terribly wrong there, including the > military > action. Primarily, it was wrong on the part of the > government to > assume that the Maoist issue can be solved using force. How > can you > justify using force against your own people? The suggestion > to use the > air force against Naxalites is nothing but nonsense. > Military action > is no solution. Every insurgency has its reasons as they do > not happen > out of nothing. And as in the case of every other > insurgency, the > Maoist insurgency, too, has its reasons and unless and > until the > government addresses the root cause, it (efforts to solve > the problem) > is not going to succeed. > > Q. What, according to you, are the root causes? > > A. The root cause is that the Indian system has failed to > deliver > justice to the indigenous people. We have an > institutionalised system > of suppression in the form of caste. When you have > landlords taking > away your land, your women and treat you like animals while > the > official system looks the other way, it is bound to create > repercussions. And now you have these MNCs which, after > making deals > with the government, come and throw the tribals out from > the forest > where they have been staying for centuries. Isn't it quite > natural for > them to protest? > > Q. But the government is doing all these in the name of > development > > A. Who needs this kind of development when your basic > rights are not > addressed? If the government is so keen on developing the > tribal > areas, what it needs to do is to give the tribals the right > to the > land, including the minerals in the region. Give them the > due share of > profits from the mining activities and not some lower-rung > jobs in the > mining companies as a driver or a peon. This, along with > the strict > implementation of land ceiling act ,will solve the Maoist > issue. > Otherwise, the Maoist insurgency is going to stay here > regardless of > the kind of force being used air or ground. > > Q. But when you have hundreds of ordinary people being > killed by the > Naxalites, you cannot expect the government to be passive. > > A. Nobody is saying that. What I am saying is that the > government > should rework its strategies. The priority should be to win > over the > tribals. But this cannot be achieved by offering > infrastructure > development in the form of roads and schools. What the > tribals want is > dignity and basic rights to livelihood, and this is no > uphill task if > the government is determined. Maoists are here to stay as > long as the > system fails to deliver. > > Q. There is an apparent confusion within the government in > handling > the Maoists. While the home minister is asking for more > force, a > strong section within the party wants a different > approach. > > A. This difference of opinion is a good sign. It shows that > there are > some people who differentiate between the Maoists and > tribals. It is > wrong to assume that tribals are siding with the Maoists > because of > their love for Maoist ideology. They are listening to > Maoists today > because Maoists were the only people who extended a helping > hand while > everyone else, including the state, only looted them. Now > it is the > turn of the government to act on their behalf if it really > wants to > win them over. > > Q. As an expert on insurgencies, how do you assess the > Maoists' strategies? > > A. I rate the Indian Maoists' strategies as one of the > best. They have > an agenda and that is to capture Delhi. They are very clear > about it > and they are using the tribals in a clever manner to > achieve that > target. I feel the Maoists have been much more brilliant > than the > government in strategies and execution. If the government > does not act > promptly in the right manner, it will be too late. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From nagraj.adve at gmail.com Thu May 20 15:48:04 2010 From: nagraj.adve at gmail.com (Nagraj Adve) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 15:48:04 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: The Hindu:2, 000 rendered homeless after demolition drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2,000 rendered homeless after demolition drive Rahi Gaikwad We are implementing the government policy as per the cut-off date of 1995, says official — Photos: Rahi Gaikwad ON THE STREETS:Residents whose houses were demolished at the Anna Bhau Sathenagar slum in Mankhurd, Mumbai, queue up for food. At right is the scene of demolition. Mumbai: Three-year-old Adnan is moving around naked. “All our clothes are burnt and gone. I could only save one bundle,” said his mother Zubeida Sheikh. Her house was among the 1,200 houses bulldozed a week ago as part of the administration's demolition drive in the Anna Bhau Sathenagar slum in Mankhurd, Mumbai. The slum now is an open stretch of propped up bamboo sticks and rags, barely shielding the people from the beating sun. There has been no cooking in many houses as vessels and stoves were crushed to the ground. “We have been going to our sister-in-law's place to eat,” said Girijabai Dalvi. At meal time, young and old have been queuing up for food with plates in hand at the site where an andolan is currently going on against the demolition drive. The agitation is led by Medha Patkar of the National Alliance of People's Movements, under the banner of Ghar Bachao Ghar Banao Andolan. What the bulldozers failed to crush was stolen by thieves, who saw opportunity in the mayhem of demolition on May 13. Children lost their schoolbags and books. Over 2,000 people were rendered homeless within hours and since then have been languishing in a place that resembles a dump yard. “Please write my name. I have nobody.” The elderly Sarubai Sonawne, who works as a scrap collector, cut her nose as she fell while running away from the lathi wielding police. In a city like Mumbai where lakhs migrate each year in search of livelihood, demolitions are a part of life. The residents of Sathenagar claimed that they have been living there for the past 10 years, a claim the Deputy Collector Dhananjay Sawalkar rejected. “They are totally illegal encroachers. This land belongs to the government. We received proof of residence from 2,300 people. A total of 2,900 houses were slated to be demolished. We are implementing the government policy as per the cut-off date of 1995,” he told The Hindu. The government's dalliance with the cut-off date is only worsening the acute problem of lack of low cost housing and the spread of slums. “First they fixed 1985 as the cut-off date [for rehabilitating those who came to Mumbai before 1985]. This was raised to 1995. Now the discussion in the government is on increasing it to the year 2000. It's already 2010 and they are still discussing,” said activist Mohan Chavan. Ms. Patkar said the government's denial to declare an area as slum is a conspiracy to deny land to the poor as the government has set its sights on building towers. Having challenged the 24-hour demolition notice, she said the drive was carried out even as the matter was pending. Plus, the demolition was not done in an authorised way as per section 4 of the Slum Act, since Sathenagar was never declared a slum, she said. She also brought the ownership of the land in question. Mr. Sawalkar, however, said that the lease of the Sathenagar land, given to the Bombay Soap Factory in 1977 was terminated in 2005 and now the land belonged to the government. “There is no need to declare an area a slum if the land belongs to the government,” he stated. Meanwhile, the band of Sarubais and the unclothed children left in the lurch grows with each demolition. Choking on tears as she remembered the day her house went down, Kamal Eknath Lokhande said, “That moment I was thinking, where should I go? What a time that was! Even your enemy should not have to face such a situation.” Does the administration or the government think about what will happen to the people when their houses are demolished? “No, we don't think about that,” replied Mr. Sawalkar. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Free Binayak Sen" group. To post to this group, send an email to free-binayaksen at googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to free-binayaksen+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/free-binayaksen?hl=en-GB. From akmalik45 at yahoo.com Thu May 20 15:54:04 2010 From: akmalik45 at yahoo.com (A.K. Malik) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 03:24:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Alleged Maoist Atrocities In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <928712.93083.qm@web112113.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hi Mr Taha, Divisive politics in the country are playing havoc with our lives and we can't do anything except helplessly look on. The only solution seems to be educating the people so that they can decide on their own what is riht and what is wrong. Perhaps I may not see this in my lifetime. It is now a fact that people right upto the level of President are being appointed on the basis of caste, creed and religion and not on merit.But does the solution lie in violence-the Maoists are also perhaps trapped in the same vicious circle of lurking power. 2. Unbridled power does corrupt but the requirement is judicious use of the State power.When each and every act of the state machinery is to be viewed with suspicion-where is the solution? With kind regards, (A.K.MALIK) --- On Thu, 5/20/10, Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> wrote: > From: Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Alleged Maoist Atrocities > To: "A.K. Malik" > Cc: "Partha Dasgupta" , "sarai list" > Date: Thursday, May 20, 2010, 12:05 PM > Dear Mr. AK Malik > > In an even lighter vein if we can doubt the claim of a > sabzi wallah > who peddles aloo, gobi and matar then why can't we doubt > the state > which seems to be peddling murder as national service. > Underprivileged > people are being sent to murder other underprivileged, > should we > regard this as national service? > > Warm regards > > Taha > From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Thu May 20 15:54:43 2010 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 11:24:43 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Comments from the "fact-finder" In-Reply-To: <581796.24335.qm@web112118.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <581796.24335.qm@web112118.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Mr. A.K.MALIK It's good that you are doubting. Doesn't matter if it's retired Government servant. We are all living on hope here. Have you never heard about the draconic: THE ALL INDIA SERVICES (DISCIPLINE AND APPEAL) RULES, 1969? Could rule number 1A be behind the silence of doubting service personnel? Please have a look: (1A) If the Government of a State or the Central Government, as the case may be, is of the opinion that a member of the Service has engaged himself in activities prejudicial to the interests of the security of the State, that Government may— (a) if the member of the Service is serving under that Government, pass an order placing him under suspension, or (b) if the member of the Service is serving under another Government, request that Government to place him under suspension, till the passing of the final order in the case: Provided that, in cases, where there is a difference of opinion— (i) between two State Governments, the matter shall be referred to the Central Government for its decision; (ii) between a State Government and the Central Government, the opinion of the Central Government shall prevail. http://persmin.nic.in/EmployeesCorner/Acts_Rules/AISRule/AISManual_Updated_27112007/12.The%20All%20Inida%20Services%20%28Disciplinne%20and%20Appeal%29%20Rules,%201969%20%28Updated%20up%20to%2015th%20March,%202008%29.pdf Warm regards Taha From nc-agricowi at netcologne.de Thu May 20 19:51:20 2010 From: nc-agricowi at netcologne.de (VideoChannel) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 16:21:20 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] =?iso-8859-1?q?Final_call=3A_Family_Affairs_II_-_fi?= =?iso-8859-1?q?lms_=26_videos?= Message-ID: <20100520162121.5F6092E9.8FF38692@192.168.0.2> Call for entries Deadline: 31 May 2010 -------------------------------- VideoChannel Cologne started in 2008 the series "Family Affair" focussing on "Mother"as a family fundament. Continuing these series in 2010, VideoChannel is looking for short films and videos dealing with "Father" & "Brothers & Sisters" for an online feature and physical screenings. Founded in 2004, VideoChannel Cologne is focussing on art forms of film and video hosting a unique collection of videos based on the topics "memory" & identity" in a global and experimental context Find all details, the regulations and entry form on http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=2155 -------------------------------------------- VideoChannel Cologne http://videochannel.newmediafest.org videochannel [at] newmediafest.org -------------------------------------------- From javedmasoo at gmail.com Thu May 20 20:31:27 2010 From: javedmasoo at gmail.com (Javed) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 20:31:27 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Everybody loves a bad fatwa Message-ID: Everybody loves a bad fatwa Within 24 hours of this news being flashed on NDTV this week, all major media of India have reported this over a month old fatwa. And every new report had added information that was not even there, says KASHIF-UL-HUDA. Pix: the Deoband seminary. Posted Thursday, May 13 23:11:03, 2010 Everybody loves a bad fatwa. And why not? Newspapers, for it fills the front page for its readers; Television channels, for it brings in the audience; communalists, for it plays into the image of Muslims as backwards; and activists, because it gives them a chance to reinforce their secular credentials. Never mind that this fatwa will not change the lives of millions of Muslims and may be text of the fatwa is not what it has been reported or may be the said fatwa doesn't even exist. A fatwa is nothing but a religious opinion from a religious scholar to a question asked by a Muslim on a particular situation that he or she may be facing or might face in future, and does not know what should be appropriate way to act in light of Islamic teachings. A mufti then issues a fatwa or opinion based on his understanding of the question and Islam. Just as different medical doctors will have difference of opinion regarding diagnosis and a treatment plan, it is common for different muftis to give different opinions on the same question. Media circus At least once every year, on a slow news day, some enterprising journalist finds a fatwa that will fit the stereotype about Muslims being backward or Muslim scholars being ignorant or out of touch with the real world or both, and publish a news story based upon this 'prized' fatwa. Let's take the example of the fatwa issued by Darul Uloom Deoband that is making the round in news cycles this week. The fatwa in question was issued more than a month ago and one can ask, why the sudden interest by media in this particular fatwa? A fatwa that is only a sentence long has had numerous newspaper columns space and hours of airtime devoted to it. The media bosses have decided that it is an important fatwa because it has all the right keywords to keep the readers, audience, and therefore revenue coming in. One has to question the motive of the major media regarding this fatwa. There is more to this than meets the eye when the Indian media which is obsessed with breaking news and exclusives these days picks up a fatwa that was issued more than a month ago. Within 24 hours of this news being flashed on NDTV on Tuesday (May 11th, 2010) this week, all major media of India have reported it. And every new report had added information that was not even there. Let's look at the fatwa first. Question number 21031 (http://darulifta-deoband.org/viewfatwa.jsp?ID=21031) to Darul Ifta (house of fatwas) of Darul Uloom Deoband asked by someone in India states: “Asalamu-Alikum: Can muslim women in India do Govt. or Pvt. Jobs? Shall their salary be Halal or Haram or Prohibited?” Answer published on April 4th, 2010 simply answers it as follow: “It is unlawful for Muslim women to do job in government or private institutions where men and women work together and women have to talk with [to] men frankly and without veil.” Headlines Now let's look at some of the headlines of news reports about this fatwa: Fatwa against working Muslim women: NDTV Fatwa to working Muslim women: Don't talk to male colleagues: NDTV Women's earnings haram, says Deoband: Times of India [Print edition] Deoband fatwa: It's illegal for women to work, support family: Times of India [Online] Don't talk to male colleagues: Darul Uloom's fatwa to all working women: DNA Muslim women can't work: Deoband: Samay Live Darul Uloom says Muslim women can't work in public: India Today Now, fatwa against working women: Indian Express Women Working with Men Un-Islamic: Deoband: Outlook Fatwa against men-women proximity at workplace: Zee News In case you ever wondered why there is no successful supermarket tabloid in India, this is your answer. There is no need for one because major media in India does that job very well. From patrice at xs4all.nl Thu May 20 22:58:00 2010 From: patrice at xs4all.nl (Patrice Riemens) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 19:28:00 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] "The lobbying menace" (in India) Message-ID: bwo Eveline Lubbers http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=239643 The lobbying menace The News Monday, May 17, 2010 By Praful Bidwai Corporate lobbyists have become a menace to democracy in India. Recent developments, including the release of the intercepts of a telephone conversation between a member of parliament and a well-known lobbyist (Nira Radia), and media stories on the growing power of the lobbyist-politician-policymaker nexus, should concern all conscientious citizens. The tapped telephone conversation shows that Radia was pivotal in getting A Raja, a Dravida Munnetra Kazhagam MP, a cabinet rank and the telecommunications portfolio in the second United Progressive Alliance government. Radia also weighed in to tilt the balance in the DMK´s internal power struggle in favour of one faction. The lobbyists´ clout extends to the point of influencing the choice of cabinet ministers, nominating key bureaucrats and interfering in political party affairs. They increasingly formulate economic and industrial policies at the nuts-and-bolts level. Lobbyists are important mediators - and sometimes active players - in business-government relations. This would have been unthinkable only years ago. Major areas of lobbyist influence are the infrastructure (highways, ports and huge projects under the Jawaharlal Nehru National Urban Renewal Mission in 63 cities); energy (including gas, oil and electricity); telecom (where current 3G auction bids show that the earlier 2G spectrum was sold at a fraction of the market price); and mining (where global conglomerates have developed billion-dollar stakes in India´s tribal heartland). Lobbyists also wield considerable clout in military contracts, agribusiness, civil aviation, and in opening up retail trade to organised business, including multinational hypermarket chains like Metro, Carrefour and Wal-Mart. The lobbying industry has over 30 major firms based in New Delhi alone, some of which have diversified from public relations. Each firm appoints dozens of "facilitators", "account executives" and lawyers to secure sweetheart deals and licences for their clients and ensure that their clients´ rivals don´t get them. In addition, there are individual entrepreneur-lobbyists like MPs Amar Singh and NK Singh, who work for different clients. Corporate lobbying has become the highest embodiment of crony capitalism in India. Unlike advertising agencies, which offer certain services to anyone for a fee, lobbying companies are intimately allied with specific business groups in political ways. Since they have access to business secrets, including malpractices, their loyalty to individual industry magnates is all-important. Common to them are all the slick techniques and skills that successful, if unscrupulous, lobbying requires, including ability to cherry-pick facts that suit/favour the client; make attractive PowerPoint presentations that suggest familiarity with the subject; determination not to be fazed by hostile interactions; and knowledge of which keywords to use and which buttons to press. What matters above all is the ability to do social networking, spend lavishly, throw dazzling parties and please industrial magnates, politicians and key bureaucrats by finding out their strengths and weaknesses and shamelessly exploiting them to the point of blackmail. Lobbyists are typically flamboyant, high-profile, even exhibitionist. In some cases, lobbyists´ success in swinging spectacular deals for major clients (e.g. Coca-Cola) depends on personal proximity to key bureaucrats and ministers. Right since the early 1990s, when AN Verma was the principal secretary to Prime Minister Narasimha Rao, bureaucrats and politicians like civil aviation minister Praful Patel have played a special role in dispensing favours to businessmen. Other lobbyists´ reach and influence derive from the numbers on their payroll -business journalists, TV anchors, law firms (to deliver subtle threats), personal assistants to middle-level bureaucrats all the way to top ministers, and income-tax officials (to coerce and cajole decision-makers). Some TV anchors were implicated in lobbying for high berths in UPA-2 for certain MPs. Corporate lobbyists assiduously cultivate the media, which duly returns the favour. Some of India´s biggest corporate conglomerates plant loyalists in the headquarters of the top papers, TV channels and news agencies. Their personnel know - typically before the news editor - which stories will appear which might affect their interests or their rivals´. Like the mafia, they have inconvenient or "hostile" stories killed and favourable ones played up. If all else fails, they threaten to withdraw advertising support. The reach of corporate lobbyists, their political influence, financial power and fervour have acquired menacing dimensions during the past decade or so. There were lobbyists earlier, of course - from individual influence-peddlers like SK Patil and Rajni Patel in the 1960s and 1970s, to the organised "liaison agents" of the 1980s who hung around the industry and defence ministries´ offices. But the lobbying business didn´t have an organised character, a sharp enough focus, concentration of high-level manpower, and even one-hundredth of the ability to secure shady deals. Precisely because India is energetically globalising and pursuing neoliberal policies, Big Business today has an incomparably bigger stake than before in securing windfall contracts for highway, airport and flyover construction and special economic zones; in privatising natural resources and obtaining leases on land, water, minerals and forests; and in rigging the capital markets. Other stakes include opening up foreign air travel routes to private airlines; helping multinational corporations to penetrate retail trade; and taking over city bus transportation at assured super-profits. Corporates are now invading the public sphere so that food grains can be diverted to alcohol production, and pricey, artificially flavoured biscuits can displace wholesome, nutritious, freshly cooked food in mid-day meal schemes for schoolchildren. So much for the much-vaunted "free market"! Such blatant manipulation of the entire policy-making apparatus dwarfs the old-style "licence-permit Raj"- always exaggerated for its supposedly debilitating impact on the economy, and forever deftly manipulated by business groups. Then, the bureaucrat had to be influenced and induced to open up a partially-closed system. Now, the bureaucrat is an already-willing ally of Big Business. The contest is over who will secure the favour first to keep the rival out. Secondly, lobbying is about recruiting as many retired top-ranking public servants as possible so they can influence their former colleagues and juniors on their clients´ behalf. Thus, private oil, gas and electricity companies, steel producers, telecom corporations and airlines have all recruited retired bureaucrats or public sector executives. This pernicious practice should be banned and punished. No retiree should be allowed to accept any position in a related company for ten years. Another characteristic of the new-generation corporate lobbyists is their strong global connections. They work closely with organisations like the US-India Business Council and major Washington lobbying firms Patton Boggs and Burson-Marsteller. The US-India nuclear deal would probably not have gone through US Congress without the USIBC, Patton Boggs and the American-Israeli Political Action Council. Corporate lobbying is far more insidious and collusive than the politician-criminal nexus. It´s also much more damaging at the national level. Lobbyists exert the most pernicious conceivable influence on policy-making and corrupt the process of democracy. They introduce irrational and extraneous elements in decision-making and subvert the public interest. They add uniquely to sleaze, venality, cynicism and corruption in the polity. India´s political class acknowledged in the 1980s the corrosive role of lobbyists in military contracts and altogether banned middlemen from defence purchase negotiations. But now it has succumbed to that very influence on a greater scale - not just in military contracts, but in every sphere. Unless this toxic influence is removed, and lobbying outlawed and punished, it will undermine and hollow democracy, India´s most precious possession. Democracy must be defended against business manipulation. The writer, a former newspaper editor, is a researcher and peace and human-rights activist based in Delhi. Email: prafulbidwai1 at yahoo.co.in _______________________________________________ lobbycracy mailing list lobbycracy at www14.antenna.nl http://www14.antenna.nl/mailman/listinfo/lobbycracy From taraprakash at gmail.com Thu May 20 23:08:55 2010 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 13:38:55 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Everybody loves a bad fatwa References: Message-ID: Thanks for bringing this to our notice that media suddenly has become such as described in this mail. They were always hungry for news and added sounbites, as many as possible. I wonder if anyone has sympathy for the mortified self of the writer. The author clarifies the language of the fatva, which makes the fatva more deplorable. "It is unlawful for Muslim women to do job in government or private institutions where men and women work together and women have to talk with [to] men frankly and without veil." Now which law are they talking about? Shouldn't they specify? The language suggested to me that law of the land prohibits Muslim women from going to the government or private offices without veil. Looks like if because of a disability a muslim woman couldn't speak (frankly or otherwise) it is lawful to work in those offices as long as you covered yourself. And what happens to the question of salary, which the fatva ignored? You can earn salary even without going to the office. There are internet based jobs that you can perform from home to remain in the despicable shackles of a medieval "law." Does the fatva ignore the question because the answer goes without saying? If it is haram she should not be able to keep it and the male member of the family is justified to gobble it up. If it is halal, then it should be gobbled up by the family. The woman has no individual existence. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Javed" To: "sarai list" Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2010 11:01 AM Subject: [Reader-list] Everybody loves a bad fatwa > Everybody loves a bad fatwa > > Within 24 hours of this news being flashed on NDTV this week, all > major media of India have reported this over a month old fatwa. And > every new report had added information that was not even there, says > KASHIF-UL-HUDA. Pix: the Deoband seminary. > > Posted Thursday, May 13 23:11:03, 2010 > > Everybody loves a bad fatwa. And why not? Newspapers, for it fills the > front page for its readers; Television channels, for it brings in the > audience; communalists, for it plays into the image of Muslims as > backwards; and activists, because it gives them a chance to reinforce > their secular credentials. Never mind that this fatwa will not change > the lives of millions of Muslims and may be text of the fatwa is not > what it has been reported or may be the said fatwa doesn't even exist. > > A fatwa is nothing but a religious opinion from a religious scholar to > a question asked by a Muslim on a particular situation that he or she > may be facing or might face in future, and does not know what should > be appropriate way to act in light of Islamic teachings. A mufti then > issues a fatwa or opinion based on his understanding of the question > and Islam. Just as different medical doctors will have difference of > opinion regarding diagnosis and a treatment plan, it is common for > different muftis to give different opinions on the same question. > > Media circus > > At least once every year, on a slow news day, some enterprising > journalist finds a fatwa that will fit the stereotype about Muslims > being backward or Muslim scholars being ignorant or out of touch with > the real world or both, and publish a news story based upon this > 'prized' fatwa. Let's take the example of the fatwa issued by Darul > Uloom Deoband that is making the round in news cycles this week. > > The fatwa in question was issued more than a month ago and one can > ask, why the sudden interest by media in this particular fatwa? A > fatwa that is only a sentence long has had numerous newspaper columns > space and hours of airtime devoted to it. The media bosses have > decided that it is an important fatwa because it has all the right > keywords to keep the readers, audience, and therefore revenue coming > in. > > One has to question the motive of the major media regarding this > fatwa. There is more to this than meets the eye when the Indian media > which is obsessed with breaking news and exclusives these days picks > up a fatwa that was issued more than a month ago. Within 24 hours of > this news being flashed on NDTV on Tuesday (May 11th, 2010) this week, > all major media of India have reported it. And every new report had > added information that was not even there. > > Let's look at the fatwa first. > > > Question number 21031 > (http://darulifta-deoband.org/viewfatwa.jsp?ID=21031) to Darul Ifta > (house of fatwas) of Darul Uloom Deoband asked by someone in India > states: “Asalamu-Alikum: Can muslim women in India do Govt. or Pvt. > Jobs? Shall their salary be Halal or Haram or Prohibited?” Answer > published on April 4th, 2010 simply answers it as follow: “It is > unlawful for Muslim women to do job in government or private > institutions where men and women work together and women have to talk > with [to] men frankly and without veil.” > > > Headlines > > Now let's look at some of the headlines of news reports about this fatwa: > > Fatwa against working Muslim women: NDTV > > Fatwa to working Muslim women: Don't talk to male colleagues: NDTV > > Women's earnings haram, says Deoband: Times of India [Print edition] > > Deoband fatwa: It's illegal for women to work, support family: Times > of India [Online] > > Don't talk to male colleagues: Darul Uloom's fatwa to all working women: > DNA > > Muslim women can't work: Deoband: Samay Live > > Darul Uloom says Muslim women can't work in public: India Today > > Now, fatwa against working women: Indian Express > > Women Working with Men Un-Islamic: Deoband: Outlook > > Fatwa against men-women proximity at workplace: Zee News > > In case you ever wondered why there is no successful supermarket > tabloid in India, this is your answer. There is no need for one > because major media in India does that job very well. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From monica at sarai.net Sat May 22 14:52:28 2010 From: monica at sarai.net (Monica Narula) Date: Sat, 22 May 2010 14:52:28 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Server Shift Message-ID: <6B58DE61-215A-4706-A5C5-8D5E674CF9BF@sarai.net> Dear All, A quick note regarding list maintenance. All Sarai mailing lists are being shifted to new, upgraded servers on Friday May 28th at 7pm IST. This will take about 12-13 hours. During this time, the list will be unavailable. List Admin ____________ Monica Narula Raqs Media Collective Sarai-CSDS www.raqsmediacollective.net www.sarai.net From gurgaon_workers_news at yahoo.co.uk Sun May 23 10:53:53 2010 From: gurgaon_workers_news at yahoo.co.uk (gurgaon workers news) Date: Sun, 23 May 2010 05:23:53 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] GurgaonWorkersNews - Newsletter 26 (May 2010) Message-ID: <969175.20221.qm@web27804.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> GurgaonWorkersNews - Newsletter 26 (May 2010) (full version: www.gurgaonworkersnews.wordpress.com) Gurgaon in Haryana is presented as the shining India, a symbol of capitalist success promising a better life for everyone behind the gateway of development. At a first glance the office towers and shopping malls reflect this chimera and even the facades of the garment factories look like three star hotels. Behind the facade, behind the factory walls and in the side streets of the industrial areas thousands of workers keep the rat-race going, producing cars and scooters for the middle-classes which end up in the traffic jam on the new highway between Delhi and Gurgaon. Thousands of young middle class people lose time, energy and academic aspirations on night-shifts in call centres, selling loan schemes to working-class people in the US or pre-paid electricity schemes to the poor in the UK. Next door, thousands of rural-migrant workers uprooted by the agrarian crisis stitch and sew for export, competing with their angry brothers and sisters in Bangladesh or Vietnam. And the rat-race will not stop; on the outskirts of Gurgaon, Asia's biggest Special Economic Zone is in the making. The following newsletter documents some of the developments in and around this miserable boom region. If you want to know more about working and struggling in Gurgaon, if you want more info about or even contribute to this project, please do so via: www.gurgaonworkersnews.wordpress.com gurgaon_workers_news at yahoo.co.uk In the May 2010 issue you can find: 1) Proletarian Experiences - Daily life stories and reports from a workers' perspective *** Three Communists in Gurgaon / Interviews for an Open Debate - The industrial development and proletarian unrest in Gurgaon did not remain unnoticed. We talked to three communists who decided to focus their political activity on the vast landscape of working class formation. The comrades are part of the revolutionary Marxist-Leninist left, belonging to three different political organisations. *** Service?! What the hell! / Reports from Service Proletarians, Street Labour Markets and Factory Workers in Gurgaon - Some voices of security guards and drivers, metal and textile workers. Some voices from workers looking for a job at corner labour markets, harassed by the police and other thugs. 2) Collective Action - Reports on proletarian struggles in the area *** Inflationary Proletarian Struggles - While opposition parties arrange token protests against the price hikes, workers on the ground battle for higher wages. In March 2010 Delhi government announced 33 per cent increase of minimum wages, but this hike hardly ever reaches shop-floor reality. In the aftermaths of the minimum wage increase we observe various spontaneous proletarian actions in Gurgaon and Okhla industrial areas. The combination of an interlinked (automobile) industry and organisational efforts like Faridabad Majdoor Talmel can become future lines of coordination and generalisation of the unrest. *** Update on Struggles of Permanent Automobile Workers at Sanden Vikas and Exide - The first-tier supplying industry of the automobile industry is heating up under the double pressure of increasing demand of the assembly plants on one side and the more confident claims of the workforce on the other. The recent struggles at Denso, Sanden Vikas and Exide express the difficult position of a young permanent work- force: they appeal to the classical union form of struggle hoping to secure an increasingly precarious position. These classical forms detach them from the wider casual and temporary workforce and therefore from the true 'material' power-base. *** Waterwars, Energy Crunch and Revolting Villages - Groundwater levels in Gurgaon drop dramatically, gobbled up by industry and upper-middle class life-style. Water and energy flows are diverted away from workers' and peasants' spheres. We document some struggles of 'villagers' against the lack of resources and oil-pipe- line projects crossing their fields. 3) According to Plan - General information on the development of the region or on certain company policies *** The Social Tsunami Impact / Snap-Shots against Capital-Class- Crisis - This is an attempt to introduce a regular update on general tendencies of crisis development in Indian - motivated by Greek shock-waves, naked shorts and potential spillovers. Apart from short glimpses on the macro-level of things we focus on general trends in agriculture and automobile sector: the current demise of the past and the toxicity of the future. 4) About the Project - Updates on Gurgaon Workers News *** Glossary - Updated version of the Glossary: things that you always wanted to know, but could never be bothered to google. Now even in alphabetical order. News from the Special Exploitation Zone - www.gurgaonworkersnews.wordpress.com From aliens at dataone.in Mon May 24 14:34:03 2010 From: aliens at dataone.in (Bipin Trivedi) Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 14:34:03 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] UK to Kill off National ID Card Program Message-ID: <000001cafb20$0f4e85d0$2deb9170$@in> Dear Taha, UK government if comes back from the UID path than they are making mistake. Perhaps new government pole promises (for getting vote only) forced them to take such step. Anyway as far as India is concerned, she is highly terrorists affected state along with highly populated state, unlike UK where terrorism is negligible and no population explosion threat compared to India, so India needs such UID denomination to counter terrorism and handle large population systematically. If you want to give vote to BJP for oppose this UID project than you are mistaken. Since this UID project idea was initiated by BJP/NDA only particularly to handle/counter illegal migration and terrorist infiltration. However they could not implement at that time since study was going on. I don’t think that BJP will oppose this scheme. My series of earlier mail if you will see that there is no communal agenda of BJP at all. Anti terrorist agenda if counted as communal agenda than there is different thing! What BJP did earlier is to counter vote bank politics of congress since year particularly appeasing minority unnecessarily and after came to power NDA had not taken any single step against any community. On the contrary other parties like congress, CPI and other regional parties proved communal in many occasions. For ex WB government allowed Bangladeshis migration is one type of communal and anti national step only. You have posted OUTLOOK story. Please note that this is pilot project to know any drawback to implement it and can be rectify with this experience to put it in general. Fingerprint is the key criteria for this project and without that this project is of no use. High security zone, passport process, visa process you have to give fingerprint than what's the reason to oppose this. Since, now India become highly security zone considering terrorist threat. I don’t understand why you people afraid of leaking of data. Have you heard any leakage from Passport office or RTO or Ration card or Election department about the leakage. All these are in practice since 15 to 50 years. So, the argument itself is irrelevant like the identity argument, since census will have more identities parameters than UID and all who oppose UID welcome the census procedure or did not raise a single word against census! Thanks Bipin From aliens at dataone.in Mon May 24 16:11:16 2010 From: aliens at dataone.in (Bipin Trivedi) Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 16:11:16 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] UID Card Doubts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000c01cafb2d$a38d5890$eaa809b0$@in> Dear Taha, I am giving you answer to your argument and every time you are raising some new points, so I presume that you are convinced with my answer given for previous points raised by you! You are missing the point again. Please read my mail answered to you. We are not adopting UID because technology is good. But, we are adopting it which can help to recognize infiltrators easily to counter terrorism and handle large population systematically and fortunately we have technology to ease this process. 'Persons who do not have any documents to prove who they are?' Now you got the point. UID will benefit to them who do not have identity. Since, unlike all other cards this system will go to person to person and give them identity and by this way we can reach all the people who remain deprived from the benefits. Can you give percentage in India about unaware of their birth date. Very negligible or merely less than 1%. So, for this small fraction of population large section remain deprived and should not go ahead. Yes, we don't have sufficient water. Money cannot buy water and the quantity of source of water remain the same. Quantity of usable water (rivers, lakes) remains the same and we have to manage from it. We have to use the available source of water in very disciplined manner. Here also population increment comes in the picture and nobody thinks or raise even argument to curtail population. Here also public attitude comes in the picture. Since, we are wasting the water heavily and then we complain for shortage of it. So, your key argument was identity which proved irrelevant, leaking of data argument proved irrelevant, any other doubts? Now the financial aspect. Can you tell according to you, how much expenditure will be there for UID project? Thanks Bipin -----Original Message----- From: Taha Mehmood [mailto:2tahamehmood at googlemail.com] Sent: Monday, May 24, 2010 2:56 PM To: Bipin Trivedi Cc: sarai-list Subject: UID Card Doubts Dear Bipin, Thank you for your response. At this moment I would not like to comment on your reading of my views regarding BJP. We are going to have our points of difference and inshallah we will debate about it at an appropriate time. At this moment let's focus on UID. A survey of your views brings out following two core arguments: Argument number one: Technology is good. UID involves technology. Therefore UID is good. Argument number two: Helping underprivileged is good. Government of India is using a technology to help underprivileged of India. Therefore Government of India is good. Let us leave the GOI out of this, for the time being and let us focus, on UID. I assume: A good is something which consistently does what it claims to do. Therefore a batsman who consistently gets out at zero will not be a good batsman in opinion, wouldn't you agree with me? Taking this as my assumption and I may be wrong in assuming this, and I would like to be corrected, if I am wrong. I have following questions: How can a technology, be marshaled to document the individual identity of persons who do not have any documents to prove who they are? They have other people who can -speak- on their behalf, that's for sure, but do everybody in India knows and remembers when they were born? Would it not create an archive of hearsays' ? Would it not be imperfect? Is it not that the state of documentation of individual identities in India is hotch-potch and fuzzy. It's like being enthusiastic about building a dam in the middle of a desert isn't it. Bhai we don't have water. What are we going to do with this technology? I do not understand why must we invest so much money on this technology? Warm regards Taha From aliens at dataone.in Tue May 25 10:23:40 2010 From: aliens at dataone.in (Bipin Trivedi) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 10:23:40 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 10 REASON ...WHY GUJARAT IS HAPPENING STATE Message-ID: <000c01cafbc6$3f3f9b70$bdbed250$@in> WE ARE PROUD TO BE IN GUJARAT....WHERE WE REALLY SMILE The idea behind bringing this power point presentation "We are proud to be in Gujarat . where we really smile" is to highlight in a nutshell actual position of Muslims in Gujarat as documented by Justice Sachar Committee report. The findings have been culled from the report and presented in the form of graphics and short notes for a quick and easy understanding. The economic development of Gujarat is inclusive. The fruits of development have reached all sections of the society regardless of caste or community. Often politically disparaging voices have been heard against Gujarat of extending a step-motherly treatment to Muslims. A high power committee appointed by Prime Minister Dr. Manmohan Singh in 2006 and headed by Justice Shri Rajinder Sachar has now come out with an unambiguous report laying to rest the whispers and calumny against Gujarat for vote bank politics, as this power point presentation clearly shows. Muslims of Gujarat are much better socially and economically than their counterparts in other states given the fact that Gujarat's growth has been all-inclusive in nature. The presentation captures in detail the economic and educational progress of Muslims and supports the view that Gujarat does provide a peaceful environment for growth without discriminating on caste, creed or religion. Gujarat is truly wedded to the principle of sarva dharma sambhav and to verify the facts it is just a mouse-click away! See the full slide show in power point presentation in the link bellow. http://www.narendramodi.in/#slideshare From babuubab at gmail.com Tue May 25 11:27:31 2010 From: babuubab at gmail.com (SUNDARA BABU) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 11:27:31 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] TRUTH OF MUSLIM EDUCATION IN MR MODI VIBRANT GUJARAT In-Reply-To: References: <222302.97911.qm@web7806.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Different news coming from different people on Gujrat. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Faisal Khan Date: 25 May 2010 11:06 Subject: TRUTH OF MUSLIM EDUCATION IN MR MODI VIBRANT GUJARAT Dear All, In state of Gujarat the education status of muslims is worse and this fact is not hidden from anyone.There are so many places in Gujrta where not even single goverment school in areas where muslim population is in thousands and if they are there its only for name sake with no classroom and no teachers The fact has also been mentioned by Yojna Ayog to Gujarat government . There has been great unsatisfaction regarding the work of Gujarat government in primary and upper primary educations .Yogna ayog has asked that govt should improve low number of muslim in schools . As per Yojna Aayog in state of Gujarat muslim population* is 9.1 % but admission rate in* *primary school is 4.7% while its 4.8% in upper primary*. Gujarat govt is not giving pre matric scholarship to approx 50,000 muslim students even after central govt eduction bill of primary education Faisal khan National Allaince of People'Movement Asha Parivar contact-09968828230 ,09313106745 From anoopkheri at gmail.com Tue May 25 12:17:09 2010 From: anoopkheri at gmail.com (anoop kumar) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 12:17:09 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Invitation on the launch of Telephone Helpline, web-portal and Mentorship Programme for Dalit and Adivasi students. ( 27th May) Message-ID: Insight Foundation, a group of students and young professionals, is pleased to invite you for a small get-together on the occasion of the launches of its telephone helpline for Dalit and Adivasi students in higher education, a Dalit and Adivasi student portal and Mentorship programme. Insight Foundation will also like to use this opportunity to screen a documentary produced by some of its members on caste discrimination prevalent in one of the premier institutions of the country. We cordially invite you to participate on this occasion – *Date* – 27th May 2010 *Time* - 11.30 am *Venue* - Insight Foundation, 125, First Floor, Shahpur Jat, Near Sirifort Auditorium, New Delhi – 49, Phone – 011 46695837 * * *1. **Telephone Helpline (0-9999 48 42 49)* Insight Foundation is going to run a telephone helpline for Dalit and Adivasi students with the main focus of supporting the students to make informed choices while pursuing higher education and in career opportunities. This is an attempt to reach to our students at national level, from small towns and villages, first generation literates and those who are not able to access internet. One of the key focuses of helpline will also be to cater to first year college/university students and to support them by linking with faculty members and senior Dalit and Adivasi students.Our helpline will also try to counsel our students on the cases of caste discrimination and prejudices faced by them in campuses.Initially our helpline will be open from *Monday to Friday (from 10 am- 1pm*). Our students can even send their queries through SMS on our Helpline mobile number. * * *2. **Dalit and Adivasi Students Portal (www.scststudents.org)* is an attempt by Insight Foundation to create an e-resource centre for Dalit and Adivasi students in Higher education. *DASP* includes online discussion group, online mentoring for Dalit and Adivasi students, providing relevant information about admissions, scholarships, career opportunities and also a space for advocating intervention at policy levels for equal opportunities in higher education. *3. **Mentorship Programme* Through this programme we are trying to facilitate a process of bringing together Dalit and Adivasi faculty members, professionals and senior students from major universities and colleges to support our students and provide mentorship on issues such as coping with the campus environment, academic guidance, orientation and career counseling. We are starting this programme by creating profiles of about 100 faculty members, students and professionals on our Dalit and Adivasi student portal (www.scststudents.org). Our students can choose their mentors according to their specializations and Insight Foundation will play the role of facilitating the communication between both. *4. **The death of Merit (a documentary)* ‘The death of Merit’ is a documentary based on the testimonies of the family members of Bal Mukund Bharti, a final year medical student from AIIMS (New Delhi) who committed suicide on 3rd March 2010. All India Institute of Medical Sciences (AIIMS) is considered to be one of the most premier institutions of the country. The documentary is an effort to understand about the travails faced by Dalit students in spaces of higher education which are supposed to be egalitarian but continue to display caste-prejudices. On the same day we are also launching our organization’s website www.insightfoundation.in to provide information on the vision, objectives and activities of our organization.Please also visit our media portal http://roundtableindia.co.in, an initiative of our group members towards creating an alternative media space. From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Tue May 25 12:54:48 2010 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 08:24:48 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] test mail Message-ID: test From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Tue May 25 13:04:52 2010 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 08:34:52 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?On_a_sublime_form_of_propaganda=3A?= =?windows-1252?q?_=91UIDAI_is_just_the_back-end=92?= Message-ID: Dear All Consider this: In a cognitive propaganda model, language is used extensively to induce what is known as cognitive distortions. Such distortions are then utilized to justify an action. A good example for this would be: The underprivileged of India are ‘suffering’ we give them a number and everything would be alright after wards etc. The sublime technique of filtering is part of Cognitive Propaganda. Now as we all know, ‘filtering’ is over-focusing on one aspect of something to the exclusion of everything else. Now consider this: After attending a cabinet committee meeting on UIDAI alias Aadhar alias MNIC, Mr. Nilekani spoke to the press. In this respect, I wish to draw your attention to the following statement given by Mr. Nilekani about UIDAI. “We are just a number issuing and data collecting authority…UIDAI is just the back-end,” said Mr. Nilekani. http://beta.thehindu.com/news/national/article433961.ece I find the portrayal of UID by its boss Mr. Nilekani, as a ‘number issuing authority’ very very interesting. My interest was drawn to a particular word -JUST- Remember 1,50,000 Crores are riding behind this word very innocuous word -just-. 1,50,000 crores of public money which is going to be transferred in the name of creating an archive of hearsays’. My respect for Mr. Nilekani has grown manifold, because he seems to be using a very sophisticated cognitive propaganda model to complete his brief i.e. to transfer 1,50,000 crores of public money, in the name of a necessary exercise, to a particular industry, in the name of a technological ideal. Every time Mr. Nilekani comes to face the news camera or talks to press reporters. These days he does it every day. He will focus on ‘number issuing authority’ aspect of UID in a very carefully crafted manner. What about Natgrid Sir? What about total costs of the project, SIr? He will not answer any question related to the total cost of project. I mean. Man! does he wants us to believe that this is how he has run his business all these years, without having an idea of the cost of investment, or returns on investment or without having an idea of how he will be spending in the course of say next five years? Why does anyone not talk about this loot of public money in the name of underprivileged of India? Reminds me of a conversation I have had with a friend once. He was telling me about the atom bomb. When atom bomb was made, US gov, hired some linguists and propagandists i.e. communication experts to sell the idea of bomb to the US public. They had to sell to the general public, that it is morally okay for US army to slaughter a huge number of innocent people who had nothing to do with the war. Linguists zeroed in on one word. -ONLY- . The propaganda machine worked like mad to sell this idea. Only a couple of thousands will be affected. Only few hundred thousands will have to pay the immediate price and so on to create an impression that ‘only’ a ‘few’ people will be affected. ONLY is a deeply ambiguous word which means a variety of things but while used an adjective it means, being the single one or the relatively few of the kind. ONLY shares a close association with JUST which is also a deeply ambiguous word and when used as an adverb means, only or merely. I wonder if, Mr. Nilekani is deliberately resorting to the use of these words to create some sort carefully calibrated cognitive dissonance? A type of dissonance which first justifies the use of UID as an aid to the underprivileged while distorting UID’s potential as an agency which could deeply harm the privacy of individuals. At the same time, I wonder whether, cognitive dissonance is used deliberately to take attention off from an open loot of the public money, this naked subsidizing to revive a middle class sector, to revive a myth of India as IT Superpower? Warm regards Taha From asitredsalute at gmail.com Tue May 18 16:36:49 2010 From: asitredsalute at gmail.com (Asit asitreds) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 16:36:49 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Resolution on Police repression on Anti-POSCO Protest Message-ID: *Resolution* * * We the delegates of Koi Bhookha Na Soye Abhiyan (No body sleeps hungry campaign) assembled at Gandhi Peace Foundation on 15.02.10, Condemn the brutal repression on peacefully agitating Men, Women and Children of POSCO Pratirodh Sangram Samity at District Jagatsinghpur Orissa. The Villagers were sitting in a dharana in Balitutha of Jagatsingh Pur district protesting against forcible acquisition of their agricultural land by the Govt. of Orissa for handing it over to Korean Company POSCO for Constructing a steel factory. More than 1000 armed police severely lathi charged, and fired on the people injuring 100 people and also burnt their tent and around 100 shops nearby. This incident exposes pro-corporate and anti-people character of Naveen Patnaik Govt. who wants to forcibly evict the farmers to handover fertile agricultural lands to the Corporates. We demand immediate withdrawal of the police force bom the area and cancellation of the M.O.U. with POSCO. 1. *Arif Mohmmed Khan* Ex. Union Minister * * *2. Shravan Garg* Editor in Chief Dainik Bhaskar * * *3. Surendra Mohan* Ex Member of Parliament * * *4. Harsh Mandar* Social Activist * * *5. Kiran Shaheen* Senior Journalist * * *6. Vijay Pratap* National Convenor Socialist Front * * *7. Ritu Priya* Proffessor JNU * * *8. Ramsharan Joshi* Senior Journalist * * *9. Akhtar Hussain* Ex. Gen. Sec. Janta party * * * * *10. Dr.Sugan Baranth* President Sarva Seva Sangh * * *11. Surendra Kumar* Secretary Gandhi Peace foundation * * *12. Dhiru Bhai Seth* Senior Fellow C. S. D. S. * * *13. Satyendra Ranjan* Senior Journalist *14. Bhupendra Singh* Lecturer IIMC * * *15. Jeevan Singh* Ex MLA Manipur * * *16. P. M. Tripathy* President A.V.A.R.D. * * *17. Babulal Sharma* Global Gandhi Forum * * *18. Than Singh Josh* Safai Kamgar Sangathan *19. Bhuwan Pathak* Himalay Swaraj Abhiyan Uttarakhand * * *20. Ramesh Divedi* SAMATA Dist, Satna (M. P.) * * *21. Rupesh Kumar* Lok Adhikar Samity Patna * * *22. Sudha Reddy* Social Activist Karnataka * * *23. Chandan Shrivastav* C.S.D.S. * * *24. Shambhu Ghatak* C.S.D.S. * * *25. Mohammed Abbas* Social Activist West Champaran, Bihar * * *26. Prof. Anil Thakur* Delhi University * * *27. Rakesh Kunar* Socialist Front Delhi * * *28. Habibulla Ansari* SADED/CSDS * * *29. Dr. M. K. Pandey* Emeritus Fellow AICTE (Delhi) * * *30. Vidyanand Mishra* Koshi Sanghar Morch Saharsa, Bihar * * *31. Anirudh Singh Jadeja* Gujrat Lok Samity Rajkot, Gujrat * * *32. Devdutt* Senior Journalist *33. Prof. Vijay Bahadur Singh* C.S.D.S. From asitredsalute at gmail.com Wed May 19 13:01:07 2010 From: asitredsalute at gmail.com (Asit asitreds) Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 13:01:07 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Alleged Maoist Atrocities In-Reply-To: References: <26C997A3-93AB-4D7B-BF5C-0752EE6402DD@sarai.net> Message-ID: Dear friends when we talk about the state we must know what is it states are not some neutral impersonal supra class or supra historical entities its a class instrument in a capitalist society state is a coercive class instrument to perpetuete class rule facilitating capital accumelation and enforcing contracts today the neoliberal state is not only figting maoists but also peaceful agitations in kalinganagar and jagatsinghpur and many places in india to handover natural resources to profit hungry corporations its not surprising that salwa judum started soon after the chhatish garh govt signed mous with tata and essar On 5/19/10, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > Dear Anupam, > > Ages back saw the movie "Ardh Satya" where the policeman > becomes desensitized by his work out of necessity. I meet doctors who treat > at AIIMS and do a great job but have neither the time for compassion, nor > can afford to. As an IT guy, meet many people who's hard drives have > crashed > and they have lost all their data - just say sorry and move on to the next > job. > > Is that a reason ? No. But the untrained scared security guys in the middle > of a place that they don't know are in a position that they have to follow > the 'command'. > > The sad part is, force is required at times - such as the Mumbai incident > where the forces overcame the terrorists. It isn't a perfect world. > > Rgds, Partha > ................................... > Partha Dasgupta > +919811047132 > > > On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 11:00 AM, anupam chakravartty >wrote: > > > The state should then call itself an authoritarian state that would start > > using brute force in reaction whenever it is neccesary for political > party > > in power to orchestrate a pogrom. Why there are all these lofty words > such > > as liberal, equal, democratic and other such things are included in the > > constitution? Mere words, eh? The state's position is more critical here > > then the position of the naxals. It is because the state represented by a > > bunch of self centred buffoons consistently subverting their own > > principles, > > we now criminal mindsets continually plotting such massacres. > > > > > > On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 10:44 AM, rashneek kher > > wrote: > > > > > Dear Shudda, > > > > > > I have just a small point to make here.Before I do that I must say I > dont > > > trust the state neither do I hold a brief for the Indian state which I > > > believe is hugely responisble for my homelessnes. > > > If people can become separitists by themselves or join them or become > > > Maoists or join any other force which isnt on the side of the state why > > > dont > > > we accept that in the same manner people can join Ikhwanis or Salwa > > > Judum.Both groups(though undoubtedly supported or even run by the > state) > > > have the same"sons of soil" as their opponents like Hizb or Naxalas > have. > > > Anyone who uses violence as a means of achieving any goal no matter > > > howsoever noble needs to be despised(even if it is the state). > > > NO cause is worth a human life. > > > > > > > > > Best Regards > > > > > > Rashneek > > > > > > On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 6:09 PM, Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi < > > > rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > Dear Shuddha, > > > > > > > > how intellect can be lulled by your post to think that maosists are > > > > genuinely working for the poor, under privileged and tribals, indeed, > > it > > > is > > > > posts like these which deflect the disgust against the atrocities of > > > > naxalites. > > > > Your words, > > > > "The presence of 15 special police officers in the bus that was > bombed > > > > cannot be offered as a justification for the bombing, because a large > > > > number of people who were harmed in the attack had nothing to do with > > > > any arm of the state, they were just ordinary passengers. This is a > > > > simple and disgusting act of terrorism. It cannot be explained away > > > > in any sense as part of a campaign of liberation." > > > > Are the special police officers not the citizens of this nation, who > > are > > > > employed by the stste to maintain law and order and to contain the > > > > deviants.?Have they got no families , wife and children, for whom > they > > > are > > > > toiling in dangerous terrains of deviant domination.? > > > > Naxalites have only one goal, to capture power for the leadership and > > > their > > > > sympathisers, who are cowards, who can not contest any election and > > seek > > > > public mandate, nor are they having guts to own the actions, unlike a > > > > Bhagath singh whom they invoke when caught, for BHAGATH Singh did not > > run > > > > away and hide, faced the system, went thru the trial and prosecution, > > > > claimed if he is born again, he will again act the same way of > actions > > to > > > > seek freedom for the society and nation from the british rule. look > at > > > the > > > > Kobads and varavara, who live in hiding, meet only "friendly' > > journalists > > > > and order executions of "informers." Naxalites killing the innocents > is > > > not > > > > stste action of act against deviants, if they want, they can change > the > > > > "system" by democratic process but not by violence, if they do not > > > > understand that they are the deviants in the democratic rule of laws, > > > > deserve the prosecution by apprehending of the deviants.Naxalites > have > > > used > > > > the words of war and enemy not the state, rule of laws in democracy > > > demands > > > > that the deviants be brought under the contained deviation, if > > necessary > > > by > > > > force in the present circumstances, as rabids have to be put to > sleep, > > so > > > > are the naxals and such deviants. > > > > regards, > > > > rajen > > > > On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 9:50 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta < > > > shuddha at sarai.net > > > > >wrote: > > > > > > > > > Dear All, > > > > > > > > > > While I have on several occasions expressed my disgust at the way > in > > > > > which the Government of India is conducting it's 'Operation Green > > > > > Hunt', I have to say that the news of the attacks by alleged > Maoists > > > > > in Chattisgarh, in which 6 villagers have been killed, and more > > > > > recently a bus, with several civilians (and some special police > > > > > officers) has been bombed, is deeply disturbing. > > > > > > > > > > It is a totally different matter from attacking men in uniform, > (such > > > > > as the CRPF jawans who were attacked not so long ago, resulting in > 76 > > > > > casualties). Though I do not support any war, including the Maoist > > > > > initiated 'Peoples War' or for that matter, the Government of > India's > > > > > 'Operation Green Hunt', in any war, armed men in uniform in a > combat > > > > > zone are fair targets. The death of the 76 CRPF jawans, though > > > > > regrettable, is not in any way different from the death of any > > > > > guerrila soldiers in the PLGA in any combat operation. I refuse to > be > > > > > blackmailed into thinking of such an event as an evidence of Maoist > > > > > 'atrocities'. > > > > > > > > > > But by no stretch of imagination can the same principles of combat > be > > > > > extended in operations that involve unarmed civilians, (such as the > > > > > incidents that have come to light today) no matter who conducts > them. > > > > > Regardless of whether the state or the Maoists conduct such > > > > > operations, they must be condemned by all sensible people in the > > > > > harshest terms. The Maoists, and the state must be compelled, > through > > > > > relentless civic pressure, to publicly abide by the Geneva > > > > > Conventions in the matter on the treatment of non-combatants in a > > > > > conflict situation. (And yes, there are conventions that shape the > > > > > conduct of non-state actors, or the conduct of the state in > relation > > > > > to non-state actors) > > > > > > > > > > The presence of 15 special police officers in the bus that was > bombed > > > > > cannot be offered as a justification for the bombing, because a > large > > > > > number of people who were harmed in the attack had nothing to do > with > > > > > any arm of the state, they were just ordinary passengers. This is a > > > > > simple and disgusting act of terrorism. It cannot be explained away > > > > > in any sense as part of a campaign of liberation. > > > > > > > > > > If it is true that these attacks have been carried out by the > > > > > Maoists, then, it is clear that they want to ratchet up the general > > > > > intensity of violence in the regions where they have a presence. > They > > > > > want the government to unleash a military style offensive, because > > > > > nothing would serve their purpose better. There can be no other > > > > > explanation for the manner of these attacks. This is a disastrous > and > > > > > cynical policy, which will wreck havoc with the lives of the people > > > > > of the area and cannot be justified by any means whatsoever. If the > > > > > government of India responds by increasing the level and intensity > of > > > > > the conflict, it will become an accessory of the Maoists design to > > > > > totally militarize the areas of central, southern and eastern India > > > > > where they currently have a presence. > > > > > > > > > > If nothing else, this shows how the policy of 'Protracted People's > > > > > War' is bound to degenerate (and in fact is already degenerating) > > > > > into an orgy of random violence, exactly as it did in Peru and > > > > > Colombia, where the 'Sendero Luminoso' ('Shining Path') and 'FARC' > > > > > rebels competed with the state and right-wing militias in a sad > > > > > spiralling descent into armed chaos and brigandage that did nothing > > > > > to fulfil any revolutionary goal. If anything it strengthened the > > > > > might of the state and the right wing militias in Peru and > Colombia. > > > > > The Maoists actions (attacks on unarmed civilians) cannot bring > about > > > > > any other results either. The ultimate and only beneficiary of this > > > > > process will be the state and the corporations who want total > control > > > > > over the forests of Central India. > > > > > > > > > > However, we must not rush to conclusions. If the Maoists disclaim > > > > > responsibility for these attacks, then we will have to see whether > or > > > > > not such a disclaimer has any objective basis. Independent > > > > > investigations will have to be carrired out. If, by any means, it > is > > > > > possible that these attacks are 'false flag' operations, conducted > by > > > > > rogue elements of the state machinery, or even endorsed by the > state, > > > > > then the responsibility for the violence will lie squarely on the > > > > > state. It must, however, be understood by the Maoists (even if they > > > > > have not perpetrated these massacres) that the style of their > > > > > politics can and does ennable the state to conduct precisely such > > > > > 'false flag' operations. If there are any amongst the leadership of > > > > > the Maoists who are sensitive to the possibilities of forging an > > > > > alternative radical politics they must begin considering the > > > > > necessity of abandoning the disastrous method of 'protracted > peoples > > > > > war' and explore ways to an open, transparent, militant and public > > > > > politics that does not involve the endless cycle of retreats and > > > > > massacres. > > > > > > > > > > Wherever the truth may life, this is a very sad day indeed, > > > > > > > > > > best > > > > > > > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > > > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > > > > > Raqs Media Collective > > > > > shuddha at sarai.net > > > > > www.sarai.net > > > > > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Rajen. > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Rashneek Kher > > > http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com > > > http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From asitredsalute at gmail.com Fri May 21 15:26:33 2010 From: asitredsalute at gmail.com (Asit asitreds) Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 15:26:33 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] letter to chidabaram Message-ID: From: angrywal at hotmail.com To: hm at nic.in Subject: Re Interview on NDTV Response from a member of civil society Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 13:50:54 +0000 Dear Shri Chidambaram, This is in response to your repeated taunts on NDTV that the civil society must respond to the wanton killing by the Naxals. It appears that the interview was tailor made for getting the consent of the Cabinet for more firepower and airpower to combat the Maoist. The diabolic support of Arun Jaitly, be it by describing you an injured martyr, was designed to achieve his ambition through the support of the mining barons of the BJP ruled states. As a member of society I hope I am being civil in disagreeing with you on your hard line approach against the innocent tribal,. I also hope you will not find it too shocking for being accused of being largely responsible for the rise and growth of Naxalism, as the following happened on your watch as Finance minister. Is it not true that Naxalism grew exponentially in the last ten years to become the present menace ? In fact you have yourself identified the time frame of the last ten years in your interview with NDTV. Is it not true that the rise in popularity of Naxalism is also coincidental with the rise in iron ore mining profits which increased from around Rs50 per tonne to over Rs5000 per tonne in the last ten years? Is it not true that the map of Naxalism is also the map of the Indian Minerals. These minerals belong to the people of India but have been handed over to mining barons and corporate in a relationship of mutual benefit, more appropriately described as crony capitalism. It is for this reason that Arun Jaitly is your staunchest supporter because the fate of four state government ruled by BJP is dependent on the money from the mining mafia.. ** ** *Is it not true that during your watch as Finance Minister for four and half years, corporate raked in a profit of over two lac crores through legal and illegal mining, mostly in the iron ore sector*? *How was this profit shared? * *Is it not true that during your entire tenure as FM the royalty on iron ore was not revised and remained at a ridiculous Rs 7 to 27/ tonne ( depending on the type and grade of iron ore) with the average of around Rs 15 per tonne.. This royalty was neither made ad valorem nor was it revised from year 2000 onwards when the international price of iron ore rose to dizzy levels. * Is it not true that the minerals are owned by the people of the State? Is a meager 0.5 % royalty on iron ore profits adequate compensation to the owner of the resources? Would you sell your one crore property for Rs 50,000? Did your fulfill the oath that you took as a Minister to abide by the Constitution, in particular Article 39 (b) and (c) of the constitution which directs the government to use natural resources owned by the people of the country are used to subserve the common good? *Would the Naxal problem have been there if 25% of the mining profit was spent on the poor and the tribal living in the mining area and whose life was uprooted by the greedy corporate/mining mafia with active connivance of the law enforcers and policy makers ?* What prevented the government from nationalizing the iron ore mine industry and handing it over to a PSU or NMDC whose shares of Re1/- was lapped at a premium of Rs300(30000% premium) and using the profit for benefit of the people? Are you aware that even a resource rich and affluent country like Australia with a low population base is imposing an additional 40% windfall tax on the mining profits? Can a poor country like India afford to forgo these windfall profits? Will you reveal as to how many times you have defended public interest through PIL and how many times you have defended corporate interest during your professional career as a lawyer? The question is relevant because of your empathy for the corporate sector is in apparent conflict with that towards the toiling masses. Is it wrong for the civil society to conclude that both as Home Minister and Finance Minister you have been protecting the corporate profiteers ( by first allowing them to loot the mineral wealth belonging to the people and now securing these mines for them) and not protecting the interest of the poor and tribal people who are victims of corporate greed and crony capitalism of the political parties? You in particular should have known better having been a Director of Vedanta Resources! In your appearance on NDTV you talked about the two prong approach and one of them having been weakened. It is the prong of development which has been weakened and is non existent. The royalty collected is not sufficient to pay for the various types of direct damages done by the mining industry ( health, environment, water, roads, rehabilitation etc) let alone the cost of security forces. Is it not true that the killing of innocent security forces and tribal is the direct result of the policy of securing the mineral wealth for the corporate profiteers and political parties who share the loot? It was shocking to know that you were more concerned about your CV falling short by a few months of completing five years as Finance Minister when you met your maker) refer the NDTV interview) than about the blood of the innocent that has been spilled on both sides as a consequence of corporate profiteering.. It is not surprising that all the State government which get reelected on the money of the mining mafia are interested in using air cover to make mining safe and profitable ever after. You should know better the role of money in elections after having managed to squeak past the post while the DMK MPs romped home with handsome margin. Mr Raja retained his portfolio!. What is at stake is the credibility of the State : that it is using force to benefit the mining mafia and that it has a vested interest in the profiteering of the mining mafia which is prospering because of crony capitalism. To restore its credibility the Government should resume all the mines which in any case belong to the people and give a solemn pledge that a minimum of 25% of the mining profits will be used for the benefit of the local people. The solution is not only just but one mandated by the Constitution. It is only after restoring its credibility that the State will have the right to act. That one hopes, will not be necessary because honest development based on the resources belonging to the people is the best contraceptive against the Maoist ideology .( One is happy to note that according to newspaper report the Mining Minister has made a similar proposal and not surprisingly facing resistence) What happened Mr Chidambaram, you used to be a nice guy? You resigned over the Fairgrowth affair when you were not even guilty. Life is not about arguing a brief in Court for money. It is about arguing for what is right. You have wrongly accused us being “clever nor being devious “ ( refer interview with NDTV), because we are not capable of it. We cannot argue the way you do. Your arguments in Parliament over the oil for food programme while shielding Reliance from being referred to the Pathak Committee were indeed “brilliant.” Were you being clever or devious in your arguments? ( Refer the book Reliance the Real Natwar written by the undersigned for deciding the issue) Please do not use the civil society as an excuse for your omissions and commissions. We have no vested interest except that what belongs to the people should go to the people and that innocents, whether the security forces or the people forced to join the Maoist, should not die for corporate profits.. We are not powerful to tie the State governments with legal cases on police excesses. Those trying to uphold human right violations do so at considerable risk to their life and liberty and deserve our respect and not condemnation as misguided romantics. On a personal note Sir, Will you resign and argue my PIL before the High Court involving three lac crores of iron ore being gifted by the State to Posco and Arcelormittal ( as Palkhivala did to argue the Minerva Mill case) . It will be difficult to lose the case because law, facts and most important you will be on the same side. ** *If you agree to do so, Sir, I am sure He will give you far more credit than He would for the extra six months that you missed out as Finance Minister! * In case you are interested I will send you a copy of the petition. Looking forward to hearing from you. For far too long you have been shifting the blame on the civil society. We too need answers.. AWith warm regards A K Agrawal E13/2 Vijaykiran Apartments 32 Victoria Road Bangalore 47 From chintangirishmodi at gmail.com Fri May 21 13:14:37 2010 From: chintangirishmodi at gmail.com (Chintan) Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 13:14:37 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Workshop - Writing War Away - Kolkata, May 26 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >From http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/event.php?eid=128512083833009 Peaceworks presents a Workshop with Anna De Vaul. Anna has lived and traveled extensively in Vietnam. At the workshop, she will share her experiences of living with the Other, understanding conflict and looking at an event like the Vietnam War from different perspectives. She will use photographs taken in Vietnam to show what war can do to a beautiful place. Anna has taught creative writing for a long time in USA and she has worked with undergraduates, pensioners, and adult writers as well. Her stories, microfiction, poetry, and articles have appeared in various journals and anthologies in the USA and abroad. She will talk to the participants about conflict writing and its conventions. The participants can also bring in their own understanding of conflict and write about what is closest to their hearts. Anna holds an MA in the Teaching and Practice of Creative Writing (with Distinction) from Cardiff University and is currently doing a PhD in Creative and Critical Writing at the University of East Anglia. Date: Wednesday, May 26, 2010 Time: 4:00pm - 6:00pm Venue: Seagull Arts and Media Resource Centre, 36 C, S.P. Mukherjee Road, Kolkata- 700 025. [Rup Chand Mukherjee lane, Between Bharati and Bijali Cinema, next to Bhawanipore Police station] From shuddha at sarai.net Fri May 21 14:07:32 2010 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 14:07:32 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] On the ban on Facebook in Pakistan Message-ID: Dear All, The news that the Government of Pakistan has banned the use of Facebook and Youtube on the grounds that these social networking sites featured pages which invited their members to draw representations of the Prophet Mohammed is shocking, and deserving of outright condemnation. (See the report in The Hindu, carried below) It shows that those who hold power in Pakistan continue to be imprisoned by a retrograde and fascist disregard for freedom of speech and a complete lack of understanding of the nature of social networking technologies made available by the internet. This is a gross insult to the hundreds of thousands of Pakisanis who are active facebook and youtube users. I have enjoyed downloading many clips of music, excerpts from self made videos and other materials uploaded by Pakistanis on Youtube. I keep in touch with several of my Pakistani friends on Facebook. This ban comes as an obstacle to these acts of communication and is a direct attack on all our freedoms. I hope that this ban will soon be defeated. I am familiar with the materials that have been generated over the years with the 'cartoons of the prophet' controversy, and though I think that they are in bad taste and offensive. However, I feel strongly that such materials ought to have the right to be published, because without them being in the public domain they cannot be effectively criticised. I have always believed that the cartoons (and any material considered heretical or blasphemous to any tradition or faith) should be freely available to everyone to see and make up their own minds about. Any faith that cannot tolerate the presence of criticism or insults is brittle. I think that those, be they Muslim, Hindu, Christian, Jewish or whatever who attack other people because they perceive themselves as insulting to them are actually deeply insecure about the sources of their own beliefs. Perhaps they need to do some introspection about the brittleness of their own faith. I am very well aware of a lot of material that comes from within the pious Islamic and Islamist milieu that is also equally intolerant and insulting to people who are either not Muslims or have chosen to abandon or question Islam, or interpret Islam in their own ways. I have no objection to their presence, even though I am strongly opposed to their contents. I cannot understand why those in Pakistan (claiming to be pious Muslims offended by the prophet cartoons) who are agitated by what they percieve as insults to their faith cannot take the same attitude. If they can generate materials that can be perceived as insulting by others, then they should understand that others have the same rights as them. For instance, for years, (before the Danish cartoon controversy broke) very offensive, sexist and insulting cartoons aimed at Ahmediyas and their inspirations have been in circulation in websites that originate in Pakistan, or are generated by Pakistanis. And yet, I have not seen any calls to ban them in Pakistan. And were there such calls, I would have been opposed to them. What makes the sentiments of a pious Ahmediya (who also consider themselves to be Muslims, even if they are not considered as such by mainstream Sunni Islam) less important or valuable than the sentiments of a pious orthodox sunni? Why should insults to one figure considered holy be more important than insults aimed at another? Those who have successfully called for bans on Facebook and Youtube in Pakistan have exposed exactly how deep their double standards are. I am not a believer in any faith, but have the greatest respect for the diverse traditions in all religious traditions, including Islam, I also respect doubt and heresy. This does not stop me from realizing that many expressions of Islamic piety, (or Hindu, Christian, Jewish or Buddhist piety, are to me offensive and in bad taste). I believe that those who use Islam (or any other religion) to mount homophobic, anti-semitic, xenophobic and misogynist attacks are disgusting. Facebook and Youtube, and the internet in general have plenty of anti- semitic, xenophobic,homophobic and misogynist pages that stem from an Islamist milieu. They are as offensive to me, as the pages that intend to insult the prophet of Islam. Facebook and Youtube also have what I think are excellent resources produced and uploaded by believing Muslims, and also, by un-believers from a Muslim background (the same is true with regard to other faiths and their followers). I frequent both kinds of materials, because I have an abiding interest in Islamicate cultures. The Pakistani governments ill informed decision to ban Facebook and Youtube cuts off at one stroke a lively climate of debate and discussion that is the best guarantee of the health of Islamicate cultures and societies. It is a sad day for us all. I hope that those who have the best interests of the people of Pakistan foremost in their mind will ultimately prevail, and that the Pakistani government will be compelled to reconsider this very unfortunate action. best, Shuddha ------------- http://www.hindu.com/2010/05/21/stories/2010052165002200.htm After Facebook, Pakistan bans YouTube Anita Joshua ISLAMABAD: On a day when Pakistan extended the ban on social networking website Facebook to the online video-sharing platform YouTube for carrying caricatures of the Prophet, the Foreign Office urged the international community to address the issue which is an extremely sensitive and emotional matter for Muslims across the world. Asked whether the Foreign Office intended to take up the issue with diplomatic missions in the country, spokesman Abdul Basit said Pakistan had always raised its voice against such acts at international fora, including the United Nations and the Organisation of the Islamic Conference, and in bilateral interactions with various countries. Condemning the publication of the caricatures of the Prophet, he described them as “malicious.'' They hurt the sentiments of Muslims the world over and cannot be accepted under the garb of freedom of expression. “Attacks on sacred religious beliefs, symbols and personalities are a violation of the fundamental rights to freely profess and manifest one's religion. Such acts are also not helpful in the context of promoting inter-faith harmony and cooperation.''Mr. Basit added that there was a growing trend of tarnishing the image of Islam and the Prophet. Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From sonia.jabbar at gmail.com Fri May 21 19:15:37 2010 From: sonia.jabbar at gmail.com (S. Jabbar) Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 19:15:37 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Muslim SC/ST Message-ID: Unconstitutionally Yours by Guest Post on May 21, 2010 in Guest Article | 0 Comments By Md. Aziz Haider, Do you know that the mammoth exercise of Census 2011 being carried out by the Government has no column for your religion, linguistic background and whether you are an OBC but demands to know if you are SC/ST, with an explicit remark that SC/ST can only be a Hindu, a Sikh or a Buddhist. The entire exercise thus becomes a mockery and a serious rebuke to the demand of the Muslims and right-thinking secular individuals from all religions to include SC/STs who have converted to Islam under the privileged category just as SCs/STs who have converted to Sikhism or Budhism are enjoying the benefits of reservation. Muslims have been demanding that it is unconstitutional and unjustified that a Muslim dhobi is kept out of the SC/ST purview but a Hindu, Buddhist or Sikh dhobi is given the benefits of being a SC/ST. Likewise with other professions! It is clear that the Muslim SC/STs are being kept out of the reservation only because of their religion and it is time and again being told to Muslims that the Constitution of India has no provisions for granting reservations on the basis of religion. We agree that our great Constitution has no provisions for granting reservation on the basis of religion, but nobody has cared to tell whether it has a clause for exclusion, on the basis of religion. It appears therefore that the Government is not serious at all of giving Muslim SC/STs their due share and the removal of the Œreligion¹ column is also aimed at ensuring that no true count of Muslims will henceforth be available, leave alone the count of SCs/STs among them. Among the Hindus, while there is a separate column for SCs/STs, ŒOBCs and others¹ have been clubbed together, thus ensuring that the count of OBCs too cannot be known through this census. Government employees carrying the survey are either ticking in the SC/ST column (in case the family is a SC/ST adhering to Hinduism, Sikhism and Buddhism) or are ticking in the ŒOBC or others¹ column¹ thereby raising a question as to why the column of ŒOBC¹ has been clubbed together with Œothers¹; as if the Government is not concerned about knowing their number. Life Watch has been giving reports from certain states, particularly Uttar Pradesh, wherein Mayawati government has more or less finalized the decision to give separate reservation for Muslim OBCs in Government jobs. Congress¹s decision not to count the OBCs is certainly aimed at denying this privilege to the Muslims. The Census 2011 is unique on many accounts. The sheer magnitude of the survey itself makes it a unique exercise. Secondly, from the outset, it appears that a very detailed survey is being undertaken wherein information regarding whether you live in your own accommodation or rented one, number of rooms, whether there is a separate kitchen, sever connection, whether possessing cycle, scooter, car, TV, radio, mobile, etc. is sought in detail besides detailed information regarding number of people in family, their age, place of birth, parentage, etc. is demanded. But eyebrows are bound to raise when such a mammoth exercise with such a detailed survey form does not bother to know the religion you adhere to, the language that your mother speaks and also attempts to count the SCs/STs but leaves OBCs outside the purview of the survey. The True Count For years since Independence, the true count of Muslims in India has always been kept under veil. While the Government kept on insisting for a long time that the Muslims were between 10 and 12 per cent, self-assessment done by Muslims and several social organizations was of the opinion that their population was anywhere between 15 and 20%. This was also reflected in the large-scale upheavals that the Muslims were able to bring about whenever they voted en mass. Succeeding Governments had an inkling that the Muslim population was far more than they were certifying it to be. As the Muslims came out of the trauma of partition and started becoming aware, it was not possible to keep away a chunk of the population from the Census. That is why the subject of Muslims producing large number of children was raised time and again. This was despite the fact that several independent surveys have revealed that number of children in Muslim families are same if not less than the number of children in Hindu families; the only difference is the difference in their social and economic status. The number of children in similar social and economic conditions is same for Hindus and Muslims. But since greater percentage of Muslims is illiterate and live in slum-like conditions, the average percentage rise of Muslims is more even if their Hindu brethren living in same slums and subscribing to same mode of life are producing equal number of children. Solution therefore is education and social upliftment of Muslims, which successive governments have continued to ignore, and not religion. Sacchar Committee and Rajinder Mishra Commission, who attempted to reach at the root of the problem, too have concluded that the only solution is to bring back the Muslims in social mainstream through education and economic upliftment. If such a grand exercise was being carried out, the Government must have ensured that the survey form was so designed that all the essential information gets available through the Census. Even if Muslims are really producing more children, as claimed by few, the Census would have revealed the percentage of their rise since the last census so that proactive measures can be undertaken to know the reason and find solutions to keep their population under check. It is time the Government gives a clarification to all the Muslims, the OBCs and all right-thinking secular people of the country regarding the reasons for these gross omissions. ­ Md. Aziz Haider, Editor-in-Chief of Life Watch newspaper. This article was published in May 1-15 issue of Life Watch. From taraprakash at gmail.com Fri May 21 20:53:32 2010 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 11:23:32 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] [#24509902] Re: Everybody loves a bad fatwa Message-ID: <25D07FFD684945ED93BC04704A051C96@tara> Hello all and the list administrators. I am curious about these automatic emails, such as the following. I received the same email when I replied to a ultra right winger fanatic, tea party apologist, unfortunate follower of Glen Beck's barking, who was ranting against Muslims and immigrants recently on the list. I wonder if such emails could be stopped. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Javed" To: "TaraPrakash" Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2010 1:41 PM Subject: [#24509902] Re: [Reader-list] Everybody loves a bad fatwa > Hello, > > This is an automated response to inform you that your question has been > entered into our system, and will be reviewed shortly. Your ticket has > been submitted into the "General Support" department. > > We will respond to you as soon as possible. > > ============== > Please keep this information, and use it when refering to your ticket: > > Ticket subject: Re: [Reader-list] Everybody loves a bad fatwa > Ticket number: 24509902 > Ticket link: https://secure.mpcustomer.com/ticket.php?ticket=24509902 > Ticket body: Thanks for bringing this to our notice that media suddenly > has become such > as described in this mail. They were always hungry for news and added > sounbites, as many as possible. I wonder if anyone has sympathy for the > mortified self of the writer. > > > The author clarifies the language of the fatva, which makes the fatva more > deplorable. > "It is > unlawful for Muslim women to do job in government or private > institutions where men and women work together and women have to talk > with [to] men frankly and without veil." Now which law are they talking > about? Shouldn't they specify? The language suggested to me that law of > the > land prohibits Muslim women from going to the government or private > offices > without veil. Looks like if because of a disability a muslim woman > couldn't > speak (frankly or otherwise) it is lawful to work in those offices as long > as you covered yourself. > > And what happens to the question of salary, which the fatva ignored? You > can > earn salary even without going to the office. There are internet based > jobs > that you can perform from home to remain in the despicable shackles of a > medieval "law." Does the fatva ignore the question because the answer goes > without saying? If it is haram she should not be able to keep it and the > male member of the family is justified to gobble it up. If it is halal, > then > it should be gobbled up by the family. The woman has no individual > existence. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Javed" > To: "sarai list" > Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2010 11:01 AM > Subject: [Reader-list] Everybody loves a bad fatwa > > >> Everybody loves a bad fatwa >> >> Within 24 hours of this news being flashed on NDTV this week, all >> major media of India have reported this over a month old fatwa. And >> every new report had added information that was not even there, says >> KASHIF-UL-HUDA. Pix: the Deoband seminary. >> >> Posted Thursday, May 13 23:11:03, 2010 >> >> Everybody loves a bad fatwa. And why not? Newspapers, for it fills the >> front page for its readers; Television channels, for it brings in the >> audience; communalists, for it plays into the image of Muslims as >> backwards; and activists, because it gives them a chance to reinforce >> their secular credentials. Never mind that this fatwa will not change >> the lives of millions of Muslims and may be text of the fatwa is not >> what it has been reported or may be the said fatwa doesn't even exist. >> >> A fatwa is nothing but a religious opinion from a religious scholar to >> a question asked by a Muslim on a particular situation that he or she >> may be facing or might face in future, and does not know what should >> be appropriate way to act in light of Islamic teachings. A mufti then >> issues a fatwa or opinion based on his understanding of the question >> and Islam. Just as different medical doctors will have difference of >> opinion regarding diagnosis and a treatment plan, it is common for >> different muftis to give different opinions on the same question. >> >> Media circus >> >> At least once every year, on a slow news day, some enterprising >> journalist finds a fatwa that will fit the stereotype about Muslims >> being backward or Muslim scholars being ignorant or out of touch with >> the real world or both, and publish a news story based upon this >> 'prized' fatwa. Let's take the example of the fatwa issued by Darul >> Uloom Deoband that is making the round in news cycles this week. >> >> The fatwa in question was issued more than a month ago and one can >> ask, why the sudden interest by media in this particular fatwa? A >> fatwa that is only a sentence long has had numerous newspaper columns >> space and hours of airtime devoted to it. The media bosses have >> decided that it is an important fatwa because it has all the right >> keywords to keep the readers, audience, and therefore revenue coming >> in. >> >> One has to question the motive of the major media regarding this >> fatwa. There is more to this than meets the eye when the Indian media >> which is obsessed with breaking news and exclusives these days picks >> up a fatwa that was issued more than a month ago. Within 24 hours of >> this news being flashed on NDTV on Tuesday (May 11th, 2010) this week, >> all major media of India have reported it. And every new report had >> added information that was not even there. >> >> Let's look at the fatwa first. >> >> >> Question number 21031 >> (http://darulifta-deoband.org/viewfatwa.jsp?ID=21031) to Darul Ifta >> (house of fatwas) of Darul Uloom Deoband asked by someone in India >> states: “Asalamu-Alikum: Can muslim women in India do Govt. or Pvt. >> Jobs? Shall their salary be Halal or Haram or Prohibited?” Answer >> published on April 4th, 2010 simply answers it as follow: “It is >> unlawful for Muslim women to do job in government or private >> institutions where men and women work together and women have to talk >> with [to] men frankly and without veil.” >> >> >> Headlines >> >> Now let's look at some of the headlines of news reports about this fatwa: >> >> Fatwa against working Muslim women: NDTV >> >> Fatwa to working Muslim women: Don't talk to male colleagues: NDTV >> >> Women's earnings haram, says Deoband: Times of India [Print edition] >> >> Deoband fatwa: It's illegal for women to work, support family: Times >> of India [Online] >> >> Don't talk to male colleagues: Darul Uloom's fatwa to all working women: >> DNA >> >> Muslim women can't work: Deoband: Samay Live >> >> Darul Uloom says Muslim women can't work in public: India Today >> >> Now, fatwa against working women: Indian Express >> >> Women Working with Men Un-Islamic: Deoband: Outlook >> >> Fatwa against men-women proximity at workplace: Zee News >> >> In case you ever wondered why there is no successful supermarket >> tabloid in India, this is your answer. There is no need for one >> because major media in India does that job very well. >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > ============== > > > From shuddha at sarai.net Sat May 22 02:27:58 2010 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Sat, 22 May 2010 02:27:58 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] On the ban on Facebook in Pakistan Message-ID: <7316762B-3732-418A-A586-D37BB651A532@sarai.net> Dear All, The news that the Government of Pakistan has banned the use of Facebook and Youtube on the grounds that these social networking sites featured pages which they invited their members to draw representations of the Prophet Mohammed is shocking, and deserving of outright condemnation. (See the report in The Hindu, carried below) It shows that those who hold power in Pakistan continue to be imprisoned by a retrograde and fascist disregard for freedom of speech and a complete lack of understanding of the nature of social networking technologies made available by the internet. This is a gross insult to the hundreds of thousands of Pakisanis who are active facebook and youtube users. I have enjoyed downloading many clips of music, excerpts from self made videos and other materials uploaded by Pakistanis on Youtube. I keep in touch with several of my Pakistani friends on Facebook. This ban comes as an obstacle to these acts of communication and is a direct attack on all our freedoms. I hope that this ban will soon be defeated. I am familiar with the materials that have been generated over the years with the 'cartoons of the prophet' controversy, and though I think that they are in bad taste and offensive. However, I feel strongly that such materials ought to have the right to be published, because without them being in the public domain they cannot be effectively criticised. I have always believed that the cartoons (and any material considered heretical or blasphemous to any tradition or faith) should be freely available to everyone to see and make up their own minds about. Any faith that cannot tolerate the presence of criticism or insults is brittle. I think that those, be they Muslim, Hindu, Christian, Jewish or whatever who attack other people because they perceive themselves as insulting to them are actually deeply insecure about the sources of their own beliefs. Perhaps they need to do some introspection about the brittleness of their own faith. I am very well aware of a lot of material that comes from within the pious Islamic and Islamist milieu that is also equally intolerant and insulting to people who are either not Muslims or have chosen to abandon or question Islam, or interpret Islam in their own ways. I have no objection to their presence, even though I am strongly opposed to their contents. I cannot understand why those in Pakistan (claiming to be pious Muslims offended by the prophet cartoons) who are agitated by what they percieve as insults to their faith cannot take the same attitude. If they can generate materials that can be perceived as insulting by others, then they should understand that others have the same rights as them. For instance, for years, (before the Danish cartoon controversy broke) very offensive, sexist and insulting cartoons aimed at Ahmediyas and their inspirations have been in circulation in websites that originate in Pakistan, or are generated by Pakistanis. And yet, I have not seen any calls to ban them in Pakistan. And were there such calls, I would have been opposed to them. What makes the sentiments of a pious Ahmediya (who also consider themselves to be Muslims, even if they are not considered as such by mainstream Sunni Islam) less important or valuable than the sentiments of a pious orthodox sunni? Why should insults to one figure considered holy be more important than insults aimed at another? Those who have successfully called for bans on Facebook and Youtube in Pakistan have exposed exactly how deep their double standards are. I am not a believer in any faith, but have the greatest respect for the diverse traditions in all religious traditions, including Islam, I also respect doubt and heresy. This does not stop me from realizing that many expressions of Islamic piety, (or Hindu, Christian, Jewish or Buddhist piety, are to me offensive and in bad taste). I believe that those who use Islam (or any other religion) to mount homophobic, anti-semitic, xenophobic and misogynist attacks are disgusting. Facebook and Youtube, and the internet in general have plenty of anti- semitic, xenophobic,homophobic and misogynist pages that stem from an Islamist milieu. They are as offensive to me, as the pages that intend to insult the prophet of Islam. Facebook and Youtube also have what I think are excellent resources produced and uploaded by believing Muslims, and also, by un-believers from a Muslim background (the same is true with regard to other faiths and their followers). I frequent both kinds of materials, because I have an abiding interest in Islamicate cultures. The Pakistani governments ill informed decision to ban Facebook and Youtube cuts off at one stroke a lively climate of debate and discussion that is the best guarantee of the health of Islamicate cultures and societies. It is a sad day for us all. I hope that those who have the best interests of the people of Pakistan foremost in their mind will ultimately prevail, and that the Pakistani government will be compelled to reconsider this very unfortunate action. best, Shuddha ------------- http://www.hindu.com/2010/05/21/stories/2010052165002200.htm After Facebook, Pakistan bans YouTube Anita Joshua ISLAMABAD: On a day when Pakistan extended the ban on social networking website Facebook to the online video-sharing platform YouTube for carrying caricatures of the Prophet, the Foreign Office urged the international community to address the issue which is an extremely sensitive and emotional matter for Muslims across the world. Asked whether the Foreign Office intended to take up the issue with diplomatic missions in the country, spokesman Abdul Basit said Pakistan had always raised its voice against such acts at international fora, including the United Nations and the Organisation of the Islamic Conference, and in bilateral interactions with various countries. Condemning the publication of the caricatures of the Prophet, he described them as “malicious.'' They hurt the sentiments of Muslims the world over and cannot be accepted under the garb of freedom of expression. “Attacks on sacred religious beliefs, symbols and personalities are a violation of the fundamental rights to freely profess and manifest one's religion. Such acts are also not helpful in the context of promoting inter-faith harmony and cooperation.''Mr. Basit added that there was a growing trend of tarnishing the image of Islam and the Prophet. Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Sat May 22 13:30:58 2010 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Sat, 22 May 2010 09:00:58 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] On a sublime form of propaganda: 'UIDAI is just the back-end' Message-ID: Dear All, After attending a cabinet committee meeting on UIDAI alias Aadhar alias MNIC, Nilekani spoke to the press. In this respect, I wish to draw your attention to the following statement given by Mr. Nilekani about UIDAI. “We are just a number issuing and data collecting authority…UIDAI is just the back-end,” said Mr. Nilekani. http://beta.thehindu.com/news/national/article433961.ece I find the portrayal of UID by its boss Mr. Nilekani, as a 'number issuing authority' very very interesting. My interest was drawn to a particular word -JUST- 1,50,000 Crores are riding behind this word -just-. 1,50,000 crores of public money which is going to be transferred in the name of creating an archive of hearsay's. My respect for Mr. Nilekani has grown manifold now, because he seems to be using very sophisticated propaganda models to complete his brief i.e. to transfer 1,50,000 crores of public money, in the name of a faulty exercise, to a failed industry, in the name of a technological ideal. Consider this: In cognitive propaganda models filtering is used extensively. Now 'filtering' is over-focusing on one aspect of something to the exclusion of everything else. Filtering is part of Cognitive Propaganda. Cognitive Propoganda uses language to induce cognitive distortions which is then used to justify an action. Like 'underprivileged' of India are suffering we only need to get their identity and everything would be alright or statements like that. Every time Mr. Nilekani comes to face the news camera or talks to press reporters. These days he does it every day it seems. He will focus on 'number issuing authority' aspect of UID in a very carefully crafted manner. What about Natgrid Sir? What about total costs of the project, SIr? He will not answer any question related to the total cost of project. I mean. Man! does he wants us to believe that this is how he has run his business all these years, without having an idea of the cost of investment, or returns on investment or without having an idea of how he will be spending in the course of say next five years? Why does anyone not talk about this loot of public money in the name of underprivileged of India? Reminds me of a conversation I have had with a friend once. He was telling me about the atom bomb. When atom bomb was made, US gov, hired some linguists and propagandists i.e. communication experts to sell the idea of bomb to the US public. They had to sell to the general public, that it is morally okay for US army to slaughter a huge number of innocent people who had nothing to do with the war. Linguists zeored in on one word. -ONLY- . The propaganda machine worked like mad to sell this idea. Only a couple of thousands will be affected. Only few hundred thousands will have to pay the immediate price and so on to create an impression that 'only' a 'few' people will be affected. ONLY is a deeply ambiguous word which means a variety of things but while used an adjective it means, being the single one or the relatively few of the kind. ONLY shares a close association with JUST which is also a deeply ambiguous word and when used as an adverb means, only or merely. I wonder if, Mr. Nilekani is deliberately resorting to the use of these words to create some sort carefully calibrated cognitive dissonance, which first justifies the use of UID as an aid to the poor while distorting UID's potential as an agency which could deeply harm the privacy of individuals and at the same time takes attention off, of an open loot of the public money, this naked subsidizing to revive a failed sector, to revive the myth of India as IT Superpower? Warm regards Taha From peter.ksmtf at gmail.com Sat May 22 21:09:33 2010 From: peter.ksmtf at gmail.com (T Peter) Date: Sat, 22 May 2010 21:09:33 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Mechanism sought to save stranded fishermen In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mechanism sought to save stranded fishermen  http://www.thehindu.com/2010/05/22/stories/2010052261170200.htm Special Correspondent Thiruvananthapuram: The Kerala Swathantra Matsya Thozhilali Federation (KSMTF) has urged the State and Central governments for a permanent mechanism in Thiruvananthapuram to rescue fishermen stranded at sea. A press note quoting State president T.Peter and district secretary Anto Elias said a rescue facility based at Vizhinjam would help in saving scores of fishermen lost in stormy seas during the June-July months every year. Safety committees It also appealed to the Department of Fisheries to constitute sea safety committees in all coastal villages. Warning system The press note proposed an early warning system by the Meteorology Department with the help of the mass media for dissemination of weather conditions. It also highlighted the need for fishermen to adopt precautions to prevent accidents at sea during the unsafe period. From chandni_parekh at yahoo.com Sun May 23 16:29:53 2010 From: chandni_parekh at yahoo.com (Chandni Parekh) Date: Sun, 23 May 2010 03:59:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Participate in a Survey for Films on Female Adolescents and Young Adults Message-ID: <34505.75395.qm@web54404.mail.re2.yahoo.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Sachi Maniar Date: 21 May 2010 Subject: Survey for films on Girls :) Dear Chandni, Over the past few months we have had the privilege of observing an incredible program, Goal, a Standard Chartered initiative that aims to empower girls with life skills through sports. It has been fascinating to watch these young girls that come from difficult socio-economic situations, slowly gain a new awareness of things they will never learn in school. As we watch them light up with a new understanding of their bodies, refined sense of self, and test out their communication and listening skills, we have been inspired to think about our own lives, and just how important it is for us to stay in touch with these topics throughout our lifespan. As media professionals, we can see that we hold in our hands the power to make something socially and culturally relevant that can be useful for teenage girls across India. Our experiences have shown us that the time from when a young girl enters pubescence to the time when she gets married can often be a very short but also critical period. And so we put forward the following question to you: What are the ten most important things YOU think a young girl should know that will help her to lead a healthy and thoughtful life as an adult? Think of the Indian context, think of yourself (what did you not know but wish you had), think of your daughters, relatives, friends. If you want, think about the things a girl should know about before she gets married and leaves the comfort and autonomy of being a child in her parents’ home. We are asking for your help so we too can start to think about how we can take our survey even further. From there, we hope to come to a better understanding of how we could make simple but fun informational films that could be accessed by girls across the country. Step two is to reach out to young girls and see what questions they come up with, but we thought that we would start small first. While no film will ever substitute for a good role model, our hope is that a series of short films could help launch further discussions and/or help girls access more information. Thank you for listening. We hope that together this is the start of a very interesting and important collaboration. With love, Sachi and Aparna www.globalrickshaw.com PS: Please forward this to people who you think are in a the same field or will be able to contribute to this survey. thanks :) From peter.ksmtf at gmail.com Sun May 23 07:02:21 2010 From: peter.ksmtf at gmail.com (T Peter) Date: Sun, 23 May 2010 07:02:21 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Climate policy dictated by the West, says Bidwai In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Climate policy dictated by the West, says Bidwai http://www.thehindu.com/2010/05/23/stories/2010052361800300.htm Special Correspondent ‘Western development model worsening climate change' Thiruvananthapuram: The Union government's climate policy is based on pressure exerted by the western countries and not in response to the threat faced from climate change by vulnerable sections in the country, Praful Bidwai, columnist, said here on Saturday. Addressing a seminar on “Climate responsible development,” organised by the Kerala Swathantra Matsya Thozhilali Federation (independent fishing workers' federation), he said the climate summit at Copenhagen was a betrayal of an earlier understanding between nations on regulation of emissions. The Copenhagen agreement signed by the U.S., Brazil, South Africa, India and China was a disaster; it was the worst-possible outcome. “The summit came up with an annual commitment of 10 billion dollars to combat climate change all over the world, against an estimated need of 1,000 billion dollars,” Mr. Bidwai said. Owning up He said fast-developing economies such as India, China and Brazil were also contributing substantially to greenhouse gas emissions. These countries had to accept responsibility and make commitments to undo the environmental damage. But unfortunately, they were trying to ape the western development model based on high consumption. He said climate change was the greatest crisis facing mankind. “Rising sea level, glacier melting, depletion of forests, extinction of species, desertification, erratic monsoons, flooding, drought and epidemics are leading to mass displacement of people. Climate-change refugees are on the rise all over the world,” he said. “While developed countries are responsible for 75 per cent of the mess, 80 per cent of the affected people are in the developing world.” Mr. Bidwai said the elitist-oriented development strategy adopted by the Union government was posing obstacles to emission control and making it difficult to combat climate change. Half-hearted attempt “India's climate policy is a half-hearted one framed by a cabal. The Prime Minister's Council on Climate Change is dominated by Ministers, bureaucrats and industrialists, most of them from Delhi and its suburbs. There are no social scientists, independent scientists or climatologists on the panel and only one NGO. The council is a joke, it is an insult to the country,” he said. Mr. Bidwai said a rational, equitable and reasonable climate policy would emerge only if vulnerable sections and traditional communities known for sustainable methods of livelihood were given proper representation. He stressed the need for a people's movement to pressure the government for such a policy. T. Peter, president of the federation, presided over the function. From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Mon May 24 14:55:33 2010 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 10:25:33 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] UID Card Doubts Message-ID: Dear Bipin, Thank you for your response. At this moment I would not like to comment on your reading of my views regarding BJP. We are going to have our points of difference and inshallah we will debate about it at an appropriate time. At this moment let’s focus on UID. A survey of your views brings out following two core arguments: Argument number one: Technology is good. UID involves technology. Therefore UID is good. Argument number two: Helping underprivileged is good. Government of India is using a technology to help underprivileged of India. Therefore Government of India is good. Let us leave the GOI out of this, for the time being and let us focus, on UID. I assume: A good is something which consistently does what it claims to do. Therefore a batsman who consistently gets out at zero will not be a good batsman in opinion, wouldn't you agree with me? Taking this as my assumption and I may be wrong in assuming this, and I would like to be corrected, if I am wrong. I have following questions: How can a technology, be marshaled to document the individual identity of persons who do not have any documents to prove who they are? They have other people who can -speak- on their behalf, that's for sure, but do everybody in India knows and remembers when they were born? Would it not create an archive of hearsays' ? Would it not be imperfect? Is it not that the state of documentation of individual identities in India is hotch-potch and fuzzy. It's like being enthusiastic about building a dam in the middle of a desert isn't it. Bhai we don't have water. What are we going to do with this technology? I do not understand why must we invest so much money on this technology? Warm regards Taha From chandni_parekh at yahoo.com Tue May 25 11:46:34 2010 From: chandni_parekh at yahoo.com (Chandni Parekh) Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 23:16:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Seeking a videographer for an oral histories project Message-ID: <598334.23497.qm@web54408.mail.re2.yahoo.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Arvind Hey Chandni, A friend of mine is doing this project on impact of partition of Sindhi community, and is looking for videographers / filmmakers who can help her on the project. Can you suggest someone who can help out - and forward her email to those who can help? Arvind -- Forwarded from Natasha Raheja -- Hi my name is Natasha Raheja and I'll be finishing up my MA in South Asian Studies at the University of Texas at Austin this summer. From August 2010 to August 2011, I'll be traveling across North India and Pakistan to document audio-visually the life narratives of Sindhi elders who remember the 1947 Partition. I am writing to see if you or any videographers/filmmakers with whom you are acquainted would be interested in potentially participating in this endeavor with me and would like to shoot and help edit the interviews and any other relevant footage. I'm really passionate about this project and am looking for someone who while skilled and creatively inclined is also intellectually aligned with my vision to situate these life narratives within a wider discourse of inter-community dialogue. My objectives are twofold: 1) create a public access virtual archive of the video and audio interviews 2) develop a media teaching tool for Sindhi diasporic Hindu and Muslim youth to look back to the past in order to move forward, together. This project has larger implications for the strained relations amongst Hindus and Muslims and other divided groups at large in the Indian subcontinent and the South Asian diaspora. Bringing together both religious communities and working through prejudice is part of my larger vision. For now, just collecting interviews like crazy is the point since those that have significant memories of Partition are quickly passing away. Please email me if you are interested and/or want more detailed information. I look forward to hearing from you! Cheers, Natasha natasharaheja at gmail.com From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Tue May 25 13:54:55 2010 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 09:24:55 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] UID Card Doubts In-Reply-To: <000c01cafb2d$a38d5890$eaa809b0$@in> References: <000c01cafb2d$a38d5890$eaa809b0$@in> Message-ID: Dear Bipin, Thank you for your mail. I am trying to ask one question. This question is this: What does one mean by identity? and I am sorry, your extremely articulate answer: Taha-is-Taha does not satisfy me at all. Because -Taha- is just a name. It could have been -X- also. And name is just one aspect of a person's identity. So yes you are answering. But those answers does not satisfy one beyond a reasonable doubt. When I read your mails. I get rattled. So I have to ask more questions to clear my dumb head. Say for instance in your last mail you mention: Can you give percentage in India about unaware of their birth date. Very > negligible or merely less than 1%. So, for this small fraction of population large section remain deprived and should not go ahead. Now let us assume that you are correct. Let us assume that 99% of Indians have identity documents. Lets us, for the sake of understanding also imagine the following: Let us imagine a community school which is situated in an island. This is the only school in that island. A hundred students are enrolled in this school. Most of the students come from extremely underprivileged backgrounds. Some come from okay back grounds. Few come from very privileged backgrounds. This school has a principal. The principal for some reason wants to give education to children coming from the island only. Fair enough. So he orders a colored dye to be purchased from market. He wants to dye the clothes of all his students in one unique color. He wants to educate only those students who are wearing clothes which are dyed in one color only. Scenario one: Lets take your claim that 99% percent of Indians have identification documents to be true. So in our school situation it would mean that 99 children would come to school in some form of clothing. Right. In this case, I am wondering why is the principal wasting so much money to buy dyes. Why not give children more food or books or scholarships. Does the school principal have some sort of an understanding with the dye makers? Will the principal gain something to impose this sort of a rule. Scenario two: Lets take your claim to be false, in fact, lets assume that 99% of Indians do not have Identity documents. So in our school situation, it would mean that 99 children do come to school in no form of clothing. Right! In this case wouldn't you think that it is stupid on behalf of a principal to even think of dyeing the clothes of children when most of them do not have any clothes. Now let's go back to you claim. Could you please direct me to a source, where I can verify this claim? It's interesting you know what you are saying, because it would make a person of the stature of Mr.Nandan Nilekani look very very stupid. Because he is being the one who is suggesting that if we don't have documents, then it's not a problem because UID people will verify our identity by asking someone, who has a paper trail to vouch for who he is, to tell them who we are. Why is Mr. Nilekani taking all this trouble if you are claiming that 99% of Indians have some sort of identity documents? Is Mr. Nilekani committing some sort of mistake? Warm regards Taha From pawan.durani at gmail.com Fri May 21 11:41:00 2010 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 11:41:00 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Facebook shame Message-ID: http://www.thenews.com.pk/editorial_detail.asp?id=240311 The Facebook shame Urban/urbane By Ahmad Rafay Alam There's a new joke doing the rounds: what's the difference between Facebook and the Lashkar-e-Taiba? Answer: Facebook is banned in Pakistan. The Lahore High Court's un-technical appreciation of social networking sites, the mechanics of the Internet and its order to enforce a ban on Facebook are matched only by ludicrousness of the petition seeking the ban and the offensive prank that started this entire episode. Here's another joke doing the rounds: Facebook has nothing to worry about. It can always re-appear under another name (Jamaat-ul-Facebook, anyone?). In Muhammad Mahboob vs The State (PLD 2002 Lahore 587), Mr Justice Ali Nawaz Chohan, dismissed evidence that had convicted a man of blasphemy as "unbelievable". While doing so, the court quoted an article, "What is Blasphemy", by Ayaz Amir on February 27, 2002 (when Ayaz Sahib wrote for another paper): "The greatest blasphemy of all is a child going hungry, a child condemned to the slow death of starvation. The miscarriage of justice is blasphemy. Misgovernment is blasphemy. An unconscionable gap between rich and poor is blasphemy. Denial of treatment to the sick, denial of education to the child, are alike examples of blasphemy." My friend Adil Najam posted the following on Pakistaniat.com ("Facebook Fiasco: What would Muhammad (PBUH) do?": "The one thing I am absolutely positive of, is that Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) would not have done what we are doing now: making an international public spectacle of ourselves. Most likely he would have just walked away and ignored (as he did those who threw garbage on him), he might have negotiated with Facebook on the basis of their own stated rules (the Hudabia model), he might have reasoned with the detractors. Nearly certainly Muhammad (PBUH) would have handled it with grace and with composure. Most importantly, the Prophet (PBUH) would have kept focusing on his own actions and proving his point with his own deeds rather than with slogans and banners." One thing about this entire banning Facebook ado is the level of organisation displayed across the country. I may not agree with what they have managed to do, but I do appreciate that they could use Facebook (as many did) to organise their protests. Today I learn that the women's wing of the Jamat-e-Islami is organising a protest against Facebook. Never mind that it has just been reported that a teenager was raped for four months in Lahore, the ladies of the JI (women's wing) have something to protest on this sunny May day. We are a country entirely devoid of a sense of irony. Just before the PTA got around to enforcing the ban, someone I know updated her Facebook profile to inform people how pleased she was that Facebook had been banned. I have used Facebook over the last year and a half to promote a cycling initiative aimed at raising awareness about sustainable urban planning, public transport and the importance of public space. Each week, friends and I would post onto our Facebook page, Critical Mass Lahore, inviting others to come join us for our trips through and around the city. In Islamabad and Karachi, too, urban activists used Facebook to promote similar cycling events in their cities. At the beginning of this year, the Shehr section of this paper's News on Sunday pages, voted Critical Mass Lahore and Zimmedar Shehri as two of the best things to have happened to Lahore in 2009. Zimmedar Shehri also used Facebook to launch and manage its incredibly popular campaign to get your hands dirty, literally, and clean up the country. Rise Pakistan, another social activism organisation with over 10,000 Facebook members, is also rendered paralysed. Someone I know runs their business on Facebook. Well, her business has been halted by the High Court order. There is simply no justification – legal, ethical, moral, religious – for the High Court to have ordered a ban on the social network page. Our law is crystal clear: A person's rights cannot be impinged upon without notice. There are well over 40 million Facebook users in Pakistan. The alleged blasphemy is supposed to be taking place in the United States. Under what legal framework is it permissible for the rights of the overwhelming majority of lawful users of Facebook to be affected in this way? As a lawyer, I fail to understand both the petition and the High Court's order. This morning, via a text message sent to me by my mobile phone provider, I was informed that, on account of the High Court decision, the Pakistan Telecommunication Authority had also ordered the shutting down of Blackberry's messenger service. What common sense is being applied here? I have a contract with my mobile phone provider which, to my knowledge, neither my provider nor I have violated. I am at a loss to understand what legal justification exists to deprive me of my contractual rights. And it's not just about me: what legal sense is there in taking an action that has an immediately detrimental effect to the work of thousands of Pakistanis. There is now news that the free open-source encyclopaedia Wikipedia, has been shut down. There are also rumours to the effect that Youtube, which is a website which I use to watch television programmes and download the intellectually stimulating Ted Talks, have been blocked by the PTA as well. Our response to the derogatory and blasphemous acts of others has been to harm only ourselves. The Lahore High Court is party to this shoot-yourself-in-the-foot approach. As someone said, banning Facebook is just like taking to Mall Road with Molotov cocktails. Except, in this case, the protagonists came from the gates of justice. Manuel Castells once said that technology can be determined by political ideology. He referred to the ENIAC as an example: if Soviet Russia had the same technology as the scientists at MIT, they would not have used that technology to come up with an iPad. They would have used the technology, for sure, but their political ideology would not have directed in the direction of personal communication devices. Taking Castells' example, I often remind people that, in Pakistan, we still do not manufacture televisions (we do assemble them, but bear with me). This is despite the fact that we have the technology to do so. The reason we don't is because we are still stuck in a political philosophy that believes that television is a medium by which "alien culture" is allowed to infiltrate our own. We will never be able to achieve technical capacity unless our political ideology allows us to. Now, with the High Court joining the chorus of misunderstanding on the issue of Facebook, I wonder how we will ever progress. The writer is an advocate of the high court and a member of the adjunct faculty at LUMS. He has an interest in urban planning. Email: ralam at nexlinx.net.pk From waliarifi3 at gmail.com Sat May 22 13:01:36 2010 From: waliarifi3 at gmail.com (Wali Arifi) Date: Sat, 22 May 2010 13:01:36 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] BSF involved in Kashmir violence: Canada Message-ID: BSF involved in Kashmir violence: Canada India Upset PRESS TRUST OF INDIA New Delhi, May 21: In a startling diplomatic attack, the Canadian High Commission here has dubbed BSF as a “notoriously violent force” engaged in “systematic torture in Kashmir”, prompting India to join issues with that country. The High Commission, while denying visa to one Fateh Singh Pandher, a retired constable of BSF, has written to him that his status was “inadmissible” as he had served in a force that engaged in “systematic attacks on civilians in Kashmir”. In his strongly-worded response to Pandher’s visa application, a First Secretary with the Canadian High Commission here has said BSF was a “notoriously violent force”, which was responsible for “systematic attacks on civilians” and “systematic torture of the suspected criminals”. The High Commission official has suggested to Pandher that he should have dissociated from the force to qualify for the visa. When contacted, External Affairs Ministry spokesman Vishnu Prakash said, “the matter has come to the attention of MEA and it has been appropriately taken up with the Canadian side.” Pandher, who got the response in December last year, approached BSF, which wrote to the Home Ministry, which in turn informed the MEA. “The MHA received a representation from the BSF. We have sent that representation along with our views to the MEA for further action,” a Home Ministry spokesman said. Pandher said during his visa interview at the High Commission he had told the Canadian officials that if anybody in BSF does any wrong, he is punished. There was no reaction from the Canadian High Commission. The revelation crucially came just ahead of Prime Minister Manmohan Singh’s visit to Canada next month to attend the G-20 Summit in Toronto. From nc-agricowi at netcologne.de Mon May 24 12:11:27 2010 From: nc-agricowi at netcologne.de (nmf2010) Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 08:41:27 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] =?iso-8859-1?q?Programm_-_Woche_22_-_NewMediaFest?= =?iso-8859-1?q?=272010?= Message-ID: <20100524084128.DFB38608.67E6422D@192.168.0.2> NewMediaFest'2010 ----------------------------------- program - week 22 - 24-30 May 2010 http://2010.newmediafest.org/?p=821 ----------------------------------- 1. The feature of the Week 24-30 May 2010 is presenting sonic art of its best! SoundLAB V - soundSTORY - sound as a tool for storytelling- featuring 50 soundartists and two curatorial contributions, from Spain curated by Ruben Garcia and from South Africa curated by Julian Jonker. 2. Feature of the Month MAY 2010 --> VideoChannel Cologne - video art in a global context is presenting [self] ~imaging v.1.0 - artists portraying themselves in film & video THis is the first of 4 features including each 25 artists' videos to be released in May, June, July and August 2010. 3. NewMediaFest'2010 is presenting this week CologneOFF V on invitation on 3rd All Art Now International New Media Arts Festival Damascus/Syria 25-30 May 2010 4. Agricola de Cologne's video -Silent Cry- http://movingpictures.agricola-de-cologne.de/blog/?page_id=47 is presented on - Electrocuciones - El Foro de Pozuelo Madrid/Spain 28 May - 5 June 2010 Find all details on http://2010.newmediafest.org/?p=821 & http://2010.newmediafest.org/?p=782 ____________________________________ NewMediaFest'2010 10 Years [NewMediaArtProjectNetwork]:||cologne global heritage of digital culture 1 January - 31 December 2010 http://2010.newmediafest.org director and chief curator: Wilfried Agricola de Cologne 2010 [at] newmediafest.org From aliens at dataone.in Tue May 25 15:11:09 2010 From: aliens at dataone.in (Bipin Trivedi) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 15:11:09 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] UID Card In-Reply-To: References: <000c01cafb2d$a38d5890$eaa809b0$@in> Message-ID: <000b01cafbee$6865f120$3931d360$@in> Dear Taha, Sorry to tell but your all the arguments I find irrelevant and nothing to do with identity. What principal is doing in school for children any type of compulsion for uniform or other things has nothing to do with this UID project. These altogether different things related to education department. I am not saying less than 1% is without identity or not registered with one or more government notations, but less than 1% will be there who do not know their DOB. Those who do not know DOB must have been allotted ration card also and not necessary that they remain unregistered. First of all if you want to blame anyone than blame government of India for UID project and not Nilkeni, since he is appointed by GOI for this job and Nilkeni did not forced to allot the project to him only. If you don't become technocrat than learn to respect technocrat. All we are nothing against such technical masters be it Sam Pitroda or Dr. Abdul Kalam and many more. Yes you are right Taha is just name and your other aspect of identity will be decided with your work. For ex. Dr. Abdul Kalam is known as his name and as a space scientists. Your oppose for UID project for identity point of view is proved irrelevant. However, if you want to know more about identity in philosophical point of view than you we can discuss in that subject. Thanks Bipin -----Original Message----- From: Taha Mehmood [mailto:2tahamehmood at googlemail.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 1:55 PM To: Bipin Trivedi Cc: sarai-list Subject: Re: UID Card Doubts Dear Bipin, Thank you for your mail. I am trying to ask one question. This question is this: What does one mean by identity? and I am sorry, your extremely articulate answer: Taha-is-Taha does not satisfy me at all. Because -Taha- is just a name. It could have been -X- also. And name is just one aspect of a person's identity. So yes you are answering. But those answers does not satisfy one beyond a reasonable doubt. When I read your mails. I get rattled. So I have to ask more questions to clear my dumb head. Say for instance in your last mail you mention: Can you give percentage in India about unaware of their birth date. Very > negligible or merely less than 1%. So, for this small fraction of population large section remain deprived and should not go ahead. Now let us assume that you are correct. Let us assume that 99% of Indians have identity documents. Lets us, for the sake of understanding also imagine the following: Let us imagine a community school which is situated in an island. This is the only school in that island. A hundred students are enrolled in this school. Most of the students come from extremely underprivileged backgrounds. Some come from okay back grounds. Few come from very privileged backgrounds. This school has a principal. The principal for some reason wants to give education to children coming from the island only. Fair enough. So he orders a colored dye to be purchased from market. He wants to dye the clothes of all his students in one unique color. He wants to educate only those students who are wearing clothes which are dyed in one color only. Scenario one: Lets take your claim that 99% percent of Indians have identification documents to be true. So in our school situation it would mean that 99 children would come to school in some form of clothing. Right. In this case, I am wondering why is the principal wasting so much money to buy dyes. Why not give children more food or books or scholarships. Does the school principal have some sort of an understanding with the dye makers? Will the principal gain something to impose this sort of a rule. Scenario two: Lets take your claim to be false, in fact, lets assume that 99% of Indians do not have Identity documents. So in our school situation, it would mean that 99 children do come to school in no form of clothing. Right! In this case wouldn't you think that it is stupid on behalf of a principal to even think of dyeing the clothes of children when most of them do not have any clothes. Now let's go back to you claim. Could you please direct me to a source, where I can verify this claim? It's interesting you know what you are saying, because it would make a person of the stature of Mr.Nandan Nilekani look very very stupid. Because he is being the one who is suggesting that if we don't have documents, then it's not a problem because UID people will verify our identity by asking someone, who has a paper trail to vouch for who he is, to tell them who we are. Why is Mr. Nilekani taking all this trouble if you are claiming that 99% of Indians have some sort of identity documents? Is Mr. Nilekani committing some sort of mistake? Warm regards Taha From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue May 25 16:30:45 2010 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 16:30:45 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Canada says it respects India's armed forces Message-ID: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Now-Canada-says-it-respects-Indias-armed-forces/articleshow/5963532.cms NEW DELHI: Strong public outrage and official protests by India over rejection of a former BSF jawan's visa application on the grounds that the paramilitary force was "notoriously violent" and tortured suspected criminals has forced a turnaround by the Canadian foreign office. On Saturday, the Canadian authorities clarified that the country has "great respect'' for India's armed forces and that it was "reviewing the situation'' with regard to the denial of visa to the former BSF constable. Canada's foreign ministry spokesperson Catherine Loubier said in an e-mail statement, "I would like to stress Canada has the highest regard for India's democratic institutions and processes. Canada has great respect for India's armed forces and related institutions." She added that the "vibrant people-to-people'' connections were one of the greatest strengths of India-Canada relations which continue to be strengthened. Sources said India had lodged a strong protest with the Canadian High Commission against the remarks of its first secretary that referred to BSF as a "notoriously violent'' force which indulged in "systematic attack'' and "systematic torture'' of suspected criminals. The diplomat had made the comments while rejecting the visa application of retired BSF constable Fateh Singh Pandher. Loubier added, "We are reviewing the situation'' but did not elaborate citing "privacy reasons''. She said India was a country with growing influence on the global stage and "our past has been marked by friendship and by strong ties that bind us closer than ever. We are also democratic nations that are ethnically, spiritually and linguistically diverse.'' She noted the Indo-Canadian community is approximately one million strong and makes significant contributions to the strength of Canada's economy as well as to people-to-people links between "our two countries". Canada-India ties continue to strengthen following the successful visit to India by a delegation led by Prime Minister Stephen Harper last November, she said. With regard to visas, Loubier said decisions are made by public servants following an independent process governed by the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act. Meanwhile, the retired BSF constable who was denied visa by the Canadian High Commission, told news agencies that he had approached the PMO in March seeking his intervention. Pandher, who is from Ludhiana district, applied for permanent immigration in 2005 as his only daughter is a Canadian citizen and is settled there along with her family. After submitting his application, he had once been to Canada on a tourist visa. In its rejection letter to the former BSF trooper, the Canadian High Commission alleged the BSF was "responsible for committing crime against humanity" and he was a part of it. From aliens at dataone.in Tue May 25 16:48:56 2010 From: aliens at dataone.in (Bipin Trivedi) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 16:48:56 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] TRUTH OF MUSLIM EDUCATION IN MR MODI VIBRANT GUJARAT In-Reply-To: References: <222302.97911.qm@web7806.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001501cafbfc$10e3dee0$32ab9ca0$@in> Please mention authentic link for posting about the Gujarat Muslim education position. Don't mention it for just to oppose or grudge with Narendra Modi. What I am have posted is recent Sachar committee report appointed by the central government. Thanks Bipin -----Original Message----- From: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net [mailto:reader-list-bounces at sarai.net] On Behalf Of SUNDARA BABU Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 11:28 AM To: sarai list Subject: [Reader-list] TRUTH OF MUSLIM EDUCATION IN MR MODI VIBRANT GUJARAT Different news coming from different people on Gujrat. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Faisal Khan Date: 25 May 2010 11:06 Subject: TRUTH OF MUSLIM EDUCATION IN MR MODI VIBRANT GUJARAT Dear All, In state of Gujarat the education status of muslims is worse and this fact is not hidden from anyone.There are so many places in Gujrta where not even single goverment school in areas where muslim population is in thousands and if they are there its only for name sake with no classroom and no teachers The fact has also been mentioned by Yojna Ayog to Gujarat government . There has been great unsatisfaction regarding the work of Gujarat government in primary and upper primary educations .Yogna ayog has asked that govt should improve low number of muslim in schools . As per Yojna Aayog in state of Gujarat muslim population* is 9.1 % but admission rate in* *primary school is 4.7% while its 4.8% in upper primary*. Gujarat govt is not giving pre matric scholarship to approx 50,000 muslim students even after central govt eduction bill of primary education Faisal khan National Allaince of People'Movement Asha Parivar contact-09968828230 ,09313106745 _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From yasir.media at gmail.com Tue May 25 16:57:00 2010 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?INmK2Kcg2LPYsSB+IMm5xLFzyZDKjg==?=) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 16:27:00 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Article on FB in the Guardian In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID:   From: Nadia Naviwala [nadia_naviwala at hks10.harvard.edu]   Sent: 05/22/2010 08:56 AM AST Dear Friends, I am sharing an article I co-authored in the Guardian on the Facebook ban in Pakistan. http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2010/may/22/pakistan-facebook-twitter-ban Feedback is welcome. Sincerely, Nadia -- Nadia Naviwala Master in Public Policy Candidate 2010 Belfer International and Global Affairs Fellow John F. Kennedy School of Government Harvard University "Please consider your environmental responsibility before printing this e-mail or its attachment(s)”. -- This is the People's Resistance Mailing List Send only RELEVANT discussion emails to PeoplesResistance at googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to PeoplesResistance+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com Or visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/PeoplesResistance From c.anupam at gmail.com Tue May 25 17:04:24 2010 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 17:04:24 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] TRUTH OF MUSLIM EDUCATION IN MR MODI VIBRANT GUJARAT In-Reply-To: <001501cafbfc$10e3dee0$32ab9ca0$@in> References: <222302.97911.qm@web7806.mail.in.yahoo.com> <001501cafbfc$10e3dee0$32ab9ca0$@in> Message-ID: What is the authenticity of a claim made by a blog of Modi Bipin? Has Narendra Modi himself visited any of the relief colonies set up after 2002? does he know places like noorani mohalla exist in his state where there are no road or water? this is close to Vadodara. there have been reports made by NHRC. but then you and your kinds are not interested in problems genuinely faced by the Gujaratis themselves -- any communities for that matter. you are here to announce propaganda which is very clear from what you post and what you think about it. Sachar committee report has flaws which have been discussed on this list. Anupam On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 4:48 PM, Bipin Trivedi wrote: > Please mention authentic link for posting about the Gujarat Muslim > education position. Don't mention it for just to oppose or grudge with > Narendra Modi. What I am have posted is recent Sachar committee report > appointed by the central government. > > Thanks > Bipin > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net [mailto:reader-list-bounces at sarai.net] > On Behalf Of SUNDARA BABU > Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 11:28 AM > To: sarai list > Subject: [Reader-list] TRUTH OF MUSLIM EDUCATION IN MR MODI VIBRANT GUJARAT > > Different news coming from different people on Gujrat. > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > From: Faisal Khan > Date: 25 May 2010 11:06 > Subject: TRUTH OF MUSLIM EDUCATION IN MR MODI VIBRANT GUJARAT > > > > > Dear All, > > In state of Gujarat the education status of muslims is worse and this fact > is not hidden from anyone.There are so many places in Gujrta where not > even > single goverment school in areas where muslim population is in thousands > and > if they are there its only for name sake with no classroom and no teachers > > The fact has also been mentioned by Yojna Ayog to Gujarat government . > There > has been great unsatisfaction regarding the work of Gujarat government in > primary and upper primary educations .Yogna ayog has asked that govt should > improve low number of muslim in schools . > > As per Yojna Aayog in state of Gujarat muslim population* is 9.1 % but > admission rate in* *primary school is 4.7% while its 4.8% in upper > primary*. Gujarat govt is not giving pre matric scholarship to approx > 50,000 muslim > students even after central govt eduction bill of primary education > > > Faisal khan > National Allaince of People'Movement > Asha Parivar > contact-09968828230 ,09313106745 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From c.anupam at gmail.com Tue May 25 17:09:18 2010 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 17:09:18 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] TRUTH OF MUSLIM EDUCATION IN MR MODI VIBRANT GUJARAT In-Reply-To: References: <222302.97911.qm@web7806.mail.in.yahoo.com> <001501cafbfc$10e3dee0$32ab9ca0$@in> Message-ID: moreover what is the state of the Urdu schools in gujarat? i have heard teachers teach Gujarati over there and have no idea what urdu is? for example: municipal urdu schools in Ahmedabad and Godhra. no doubt there are muslim children who have performed really well in the recent CBSE and state board exams. it would be shameful for the education wing of the government to take credit for that because most of these kids work on their own, like any other child in gujarat or elsewhere in the country. those who can, take private tuitions, other toil hard. anupam On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 5:04 PM, anupam chakravartty wrote: > What is the authenticity of a claim made by a blog of Modi Bipin? Has > Narendra Modi himself visited any of the relief colonies set up after 2002? > does he know places like noorani mohalla exist in his state where there are > no road or water? this is close to Vadodara. there have been reports made by > NHRC. but then you and your kinds are not interested in problems genuinely > faced by the Gujaratis themselves -- any communities for that matter. you > are here to announce propaganda which is very clear from what you post and > what you think about it. Sachar committee report has flaws which have been > discussed on this list. > > Anupam > > On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 4:48 PM, Bipin Trivedi wrote: > >> Please mention authentic link for posting about the Gujarat Muslim >> education position. Don't mention it for just to oppose or grudge with >> Narendra Modi. What I am have posted is recent Sachar committee report >> appointed by the central government. >> >> Thanks >> Bipin >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net [mailto:reader-list-bounces at sarai.net] >> On Behalf Of SUNDARA BABU >> Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 11:28 AM >> To: sarai list >> Subject: [Reader-list] TRUTH OF MUSLIM EDUCATION IN MR MODI VIBRANT >> GUJARAT >> >> Different news coming from different people on Gujrat. >> >> >> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> >> From: Faisal Khan >> Date: 25 May 2010 11:06 >> Subject: TRUTH OF MUSLIM EDUCATION IN MR MODI VIBRANT GUJARAT >> >> >> >> >> Dear All, >> >> In state of Gujarat the education status of muslims is worse and this fact >> is not hidden from anyone.There are so many places in Gujrta where not >> even >> single goverment school in areas where muslim population is in thousands >> and >> if they are there its only for name sake with no classroom and no teachers >> >> The fact has also been mentioned by Yojna Ayog to Gujarat government . >> There >> has been great unsatisfaction regarding the work of Gujarat government in >> primary and upper primary educations .Yogna ayog has asked that govt >> should >> improve low number of muslim in schools . >> >> As per Yojna Aayog in state of Gujarat muslim population* is 9.1 % but >> admission rate in* *primary school is 4.7% while its 4.8% in upper >> primary*. Gujarat govt is not giving pre matric scholarship to approx >> 50,000 muslim >> students even after central govt eduction bill of primary education >> >> >> Faisal khan >> National Allaince of People'Movement >> Asha Parivar >> contact-09968828230 ,09313106745 >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > From c.anupam at gmail.com Tue May 25 17:11:01 2010 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 17:11:01 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] TRUTH OF MUSLIM EDUCATION IN MR MODI VIBRANT GUJARAT In-Reply-To: References: <222302.97911.qm@web7806.mail.in.yahoo.com> <001501cafbfc$10e3dee0$32ab9ca0$@in> Message-ID: where are you bipin? trying to google noorani mohalla? hope you find it. On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 5:09 PM, anupam chakravartty wrote: > moreover what is the state of the Urdu schools in gujarat? i have heard > teachers teach Gujarati over there and have no idea what urdu is? for > example: municipal urdu schools in Ahmedabad and Godhra. > > no doubt there are muslim children who have performed really well in the > recent CBSE and state board exams. it would be shameful for the education > wing of the government to take credit for that because most of these kids > work on their own, like any other child in gujarat or elsewhere in the > country. those who can, take private tuitions, other toil hard. > > anupam > > > On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 5:04 PM, anupam chakravartty wrote: > >> What is the authenticity of a claim made by a blog of Modi Bipin? Has >> Narendra Modi himself visited any of the relief colonies set up after 2002? >> does he know places like noorani mohalla exist in his state where there are >> no road or water? this is close to Vadodara. there have been reports made by >> NHRC. but then you and your kinds are not interested in problems genuinely >> faced by the Gujaratis themselves -- any communities for that matter. you >> are here to announce propaganda which is very clear from what you post and >> what you think about it. Sachar committee report has flaws which have been >> discussed on this list. >> >> Anupam >> >> On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 4:48 PM, Bipin Trivedi wrote: >> >>> Please mention authentic link for posting about the Gujarat Muslim >>> education position. Don't mention it for just to oppose or grudge with >>> Narendra Modi. What I am have posted is recent Sachar committee report >>> appointed by the central government. >>> >>> Thanks >>> Bipin >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net [mailto: >>> reader-list-bounces at sarai.net] On Behalf Of SUNDARA BABU >>> Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 11:28 AM >>> To: sarai list >>> Subject: [Reader-list] TRUTH OF MUSLIM EDUCATION IN MR MODI VIBRANT >>> GUJARAT >>> >>> Different news coming from different people on Gujrat. >>> >>> >>> >>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >>> >>> From: Faisal Khan >>> Date: 25 May 2010 11:06 >>> Subject: TRUTH OF MUSLIM EDUCATION IN MR MODI VIBRANT GUJARAT >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Dear All, >>> >>> In state of Gujarat the education status of muslims is worse and this >>> fact >>> is not hidden from anyone.There are so many places in Gujrta where not >>> even >>> single goverment school in areas where muslim population is in thousands >>> and >>> if they are there its only for name sake with no classroom and no >>> teachers >>> >>> The fact has also been mentioned by Yojna Ayog to Gujarat government . >>> There >>> has been great unsatisfaction regarding the work of Gujarat government in >>> primary and upper primary educations .Yogna ayog has asked that govt >>> should >>> improve low number of muslim in schools . >>> >>> As per Yojna Aayog in state of Gujarat muslim population* is 9.1 % but >>> admission rate in* *primary school is 4.7% while its 4.8% in upper >>> primary*. Gujarat govt is not giving pre matric scholarship to approx >>> 50,000 muslim >>> students even after central govt eduction bill of primary education >>> >>> >>> Faisal khan >>> National Allaince of People'Movement >>> Asha Parivar >>> contact-09968828230 ,09313106745 >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >> >> > From akmalik45 at yahoo.com Tue May 25 18:52:29 2010 From: akmalik45 at yahoo.com (A.K. Malik) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 06:22:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?q?On_a_sublime_form_of_propaganda=3A_?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98UIDAI_is_just_the_back-end=E2=80=99?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <81796.44196.qm@web112102.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> HI Taha, Yesterday the fellow for Census also took data for Aadhar project from my residence. The data items were: Name, father's name,mother's name, date of birth & place of birth.This is for your info pl. With warm regards, (A.K.MALIK) --- On Tue, 5/25/10, Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> wrote: > From: Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> > Subject: [Reader-list] On a sublime form of propaganda: ‘UIDAI is just the back-end’ > To: "Sarai Reader-list" > Date: Tuesday, May 25, 2010, 1:04 PM > Dear All > > Consider this: In a cognitive propaganda model, language is > used > extensively to induce what is known as cognitive > distortions. Such > distortions are then utilized to justify an action. A good > example for > this would be: The underprivileged of India are > ‘suffering’ we give > them a number and everything would be alright after wards > etc. > > The sublime technique of filtering is part of Cognitive > Propaganda. > Now as we all know, ‘filtering’ is over-focusing on one > aspect of > something to the exclusion of everything else. > > Now consider this: > > After attending a cabinet committee meeting on UIDAI alias > Aadhar > alias MNIC, Mr. Nilekani spoke to the press. In this > respect, I wish > to > draw your attention to the following statement given by Mr. > Nilekani > about UIDAI. > > “We are just a number issuing and data collecting > authority…UIDAI is > just the back-end,” said Mr. Nilekani. > > http://beta.thehindu.com/news/national/article433961.ece > > I find the portrayal of UID by its boss Mr. Nilekani, as a > ‘number > issuing authority’ very very interesting. My interest was > drawn to a > particular word -JUST- > > Remember 1,50,000 Crores are riding behind this word very > innocuous > word  -just-. 1,50,000 crores of public money which is > going to be > transferred in the name of creating an archive of > hearsays’. > > My respect for Mr. Nilekani has grown manifold, because he > seems to be > using a very sophisticated cognitive propaganda model to > complete his > brief i.e. to transfer 1,50,000 crores of public money, in > the name of > a  necessary exercise, to a particular industry, in > the name of a > technological ideal. > > Every time Mr. Nilekani comes to face the news camera or > talks to > press reporters. These days he does it every day. He will > focus on ‘number issuing authority’ aspect of UID in a > very carefully > crafted manner. > > What about Natgrid Sir? > > What about total costs of the project, SIr? > > He will not answer any question related to the total cost > of project. > I mean. Man! does he wants us to believe that this is how > he has run > his business all these years, without having an idea of the > cost of > investment, or returns on investment or without having an > idea of how > he will be spending in the course of say next five years? > > Why does anyone not talk about this loot of public money in > the name > of underprivileged of India? > > Reminds me of a conversation I have had with a friend once. > He was > telling me about the atom bomb. When atom bomb was made, US > gov, hired > some linguists and propagandists i.e. communication experts > to sell > the idea of bomb to the US public. They had to sell to the > general > public, that it is morally okay for US army to slaughter a > huge number > of innocent people who had nothing to do with the war. > > Linguists zeroed in on one word. -ONLY- . The propaganda > machine > worked like mad to sell this idea. Only a couple of > thousands will be > affected. Only few hundred thousands will have to pay the > immediate > price and so on to create an impression that ‘only’ a > ‘few’ people > will be affected. > > ONLY is a deeply ambiguous word which means a variety of > things but > while used an adjective it means, being the single one or > the > relatively few of the kind. > > ONLY shares a close association with JUST which is also a > deeply > ambiguous word and when used as an adverb means, only or > merely. > > I wonder if, Mr. Nilekani is deliberately resorting to the > use of > these words to create some sort  carefully calibrated > cognitive > dissonance? A type of dissonance which first justifies the > use of UID > as an aid to the underprivileged while distorting UID’s > potential as > an agency which could deeply harm the privacy of > individuals. At the > same time, I wonder whether, cognitive dissonance is used > deliberately > to take attention off from an open loot of the public > money, this > naked subsidizing to revive a middle class sector, to > revive a myth of > India as IT Superpower? > > Warm regards > > Taha > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Tue May 25 18:55:20 2010 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 14:25:20 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] On banning facebook Message-ID: Deal All, It seems that of lately facebook is in news for all the 'wrong' reasons in lots of places around the world A sample: 1. French police block Facebook party It was the giant cocktail party that wasn’t. Police barricades and bag checks greeted revelers arriving at what was supposed to be France's largest boozy Facebook gathering to date. http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/france/100524/french-police-facebook-party-champ-de-mars 2. Facebook ban not the answer: strategist A social media strategist says parents need to talk to their children about their use of social networking sites after an 18-year-old Sydney teen was allegedly killed by someone she met through Facebook. http://www.smh.com.au/technology/technology-news/facebook-ban-not-the-answer-strategist-20100517-v898.html 3. Headteacher calls for Facebook ban The principal of a school in New Jersey has asked students to join a voluntary ban on social networking and text messaging to prevent cyber bullying http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/social-media/7659627/Headteacher-calls-for-Facebook-ban.html 4. St Helens College introduce 'Facebook ban' STUDENTS at St Helens College have been banned from using social networking website Facebook amid concerns it is distracting some from work. http://www.sthelensstar.co.uk/news/8174721.St_Helens_College_introduce__Facebook_ban_/ 5. Facebook to Ban Its Most Popular Game? Social gaming company Zynga's creations -- including the popular FarmVille -- could be evicted from Facebook in a bitter dispute over payment changes. http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/05/14/facebook-ban-farmville/ 6. NJ Principal Wants Facebook Banned Now that Riverdale teens have proven they can survive two days without Facebook or text messaging, one New Jersey principal wants to push the kids even further, and is asking parents to ban texting, Facebook and something called Formspring from their homes. http://gothamist.com/2010/04/29/nj_principal_wants_facebook_banned.php 7. Schools ban Facebook over cyber mobbing increase An increasing number of Austrian schools are banning access to social network platforms as more and more students become victims of online mobbing. http://austrianindependent.com/news/General_News/2010-04-29/2355/Schools_ban_Facebook_over_cyber_mobbing_increase 8. Facebook, Twitter seen as threats at House Smart phones, now ubiquitous gadgets in schools, offices and malls, have been declared by legislature leaders to be a direct threat to legislation at the House of Representatives. http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2010/05/15/facebook-twitter-seen-threats-house.html 9. The Irish Times quotes Justice Minister Dermot Ahern warning Facebook and Twitter users that they could be sued if what they post comments which were damaging or defamatory to other people. Speaking at the launch of the annual report of the Press Council, Mr Ahern said social media sites are not exempt from the State's defamation laws. The council received 351 complaints last year. http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20100525/local/press-digest and so on and so forth but perhaps none of this is as disgusting as mullahs banning facebook in the name of islam... Warm regards Taha From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue May 25 19:10:18 2010 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 19:10:18 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] On banning facebook In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No worries..... Millat Facebook has been launched ... Log into : http://www.millatfacebook.com/ MillatFacebook claims to helps you connect and share with more then 1.57 Billion Muslims and Sweet people from other Religions. regards Pawan Durani On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 6:55 PM, Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> wrote: > > Deal All, > > It seems that of lately facebook is in news for all the 'wrong' > reasons in lots of places around the world > > A sample: > > 1. French police block Facebook party > > It was the giant cocktail party that wasn’t. Police barricades and bag > checks greeted revelers arriving at what was supposed to be France's > largest boozy Facebook gathering to date. > > http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/france/100524/french-police-facebook-party-champ-de-mars > > 2. Facebook ban not the answer: strategist > > A social media strategist says parents need to talk to their children > about their use of social networking sites after an 18-year-old Sydney > teen was allegedly killed by someone she met through Facebook. > > http://www.smh.com.au/technology/technology-news/facebook-ban-not-the-answer-strategist-20100517-v898.html > > 3. Headteacher calls for Facebook ban > > The principal of a school in New Jersey has asked students to join a > voluntary ban on social networking and text messaging to prevent cyber > bullying > > http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/social-media/7659627/Headteacher-calls-for-Facebook-ban.html > > 4. St Helens College introduce 'Facebook ban' > > STUDENTS at St Helens College have been banned from using social > networking website Facebook amid concerns it is distracting some from > work. > > http://www.sthelensstar.co.uk/news/8174721.St_Helens_College_introduce__Facebook_ban_/ > > 5. Facebook to Ban Its Most Popular Game? > > Social gaming company Zynga's creations -- including the popular > FarmVille -- could be evicted from Facebook in a bitter dispute over > payment changes. > > http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/05/14/facebook-ban-farmville/ > > 6. NJ Principal Wants Facebook Banned > > Now that Riverdale teens have proven they can survive two days without > Facebook or text messaging, one New Jersey principal wants to push the > kids even further, and is asking parents to ban texting, Facebook and > something called Formspring from their homes. > > http://gothamist.com/2010/04/29/nj_principal_wants_facebook_banned.php > > 7. Schools ban Facebook over cyber mobbing increase > > An increasing number of Austrian schools are banning access to social > network platforms as more and more students become victims of online > mobbing. > > http://austrianindependent.com/news/General_News/2010-04-29/2355/Schools_ban_Facebook_over_cyber_mobbing_increase > > 8. Facebook, Twitter seen as threats at House > > Smart phones, now ubiquitous gadgets in schools, offices and malls, > have been declared by legislature leaders to be a direct threat to > legislation at the House of Representatives. > > http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2010/05/15/facebook-twitter-seen-threats-house.html > > 9. The Irish Times quotes Justice Minister Dermot Ahern warning > Facebook and Twitter users that they could be sued if what they post > comments which were damaging or defamatory to other people. Speaking > at the launch of the annual report of the Press Council, Mr Ahern said > social media sites are not exempt from the State's defamation laws. > The council received 351 complaints last year. > > http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20100525/local/press-digest > > and so on and so forth but perhaps none of this is as disgusting as > mullahs banning facebook in the name of islam... > > Warm regards > > Taha > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From aliens at dataone.in Tue May 25 22:17:19 2010 From: aliens at dataone.in (Bipin Trivedi) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 22:17:19 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?q?On_a_sublime_form_of_propaganda=3A_?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98UIDAI_is_just_the_back-end=E2=80=99?= In-Reply-To: <81796.44196.qm@web112102.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <81796.44196.qm@web112102.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000801cafc29$f0bf2d80$d23d8880$@in> Dear Malik, That was for only census and UID data not started yet. It will be with finger print only Thanks Bipin -----Original Message----- From: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net [mailto:reader-list-bounces at sarai.net] On Behalf Of A.K. Malik Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 6:52 PM To: Taha Mehmood Cc: Sarai List Subject: Re: [Reader-list] On a sublime form of propaganda: ‘UIDAI is just the back-end’ HI Taha, Yesterday the fellow for Census also took data for Aadhar project from my residence. The data items were: Name, father's name,mother's name, date of birth & place of birth.This is for your info pl. With warm regards, (A.K.MALIK) --- On Tue, 5/25/10, Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> wrote: > From: Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> > Subject: [Reader-list] On a sublime form of propaganda: ‘UIDAI is just the back-end’ > To: "Sarai Reader-list" > Date: Tuesday, May 25, 2010, 1:04 PM > Dear All > > Consider this: In a cognitive propaganda model, language is > used > extensively to induce what is known as cognitive > distortions. Such > distortions are then utilized to justify an action. A good > example for > this would be: The underprivileged of India are > ‘suffering’ we give > them a number and everything would be alright after wards > etc. > > The sublime technique of filtering is part of Cognitive > Propaganda. > Now as we all know, ‘filtering’ is over-focusing on one > aspect of > something to the exclusion of everything else. > > Now consider this: > > After attending a cabinet committee meeting on UIDAI alias > Aadhar > alias MNIC, Mr. Nilekani spoke to the press. In this > respect, I wish > to > draw your attention to the following statement given by Mr. > Nilekani > about UIDAI. > > “We are just a number issuing and data collecting > authority…UIDAI is > just the back-end,” said Mr. Nilekani. > > http://beta.thehindu.com/news/national/article433961.ece > > I find the portrayal of UID by its boss Mr. Nilekani, as a > ‘number > issuing authority’ very very interesting. My interest was > drawn to a > particular word -JUST- > > Remember 1,50,000 Crores are riding behind this word very > innocuous > word -just-. 1,50,000 crores of public money which is > going to be > transferred in the name of creating an archive of > hearsays’. > > My respect for Mr. Nilekani has grown manifold, because he > seems to be > using a very sophisticated cognitive propaganda model to > complete his > brief i.e. to transfer 1,50,000 crores of public money, in > the name of > a necessary exercise, to a particular industry, in > the name of a > technological ideal. > > Every time Mr. Nilekani comes to face the news camera or > talks to > press reporters. These days he does it every day. He will > focus on ‘number issuing authority’ aspect of UID in a > very carefully > crafted manner. > > What about Natgrid Sir? > > What about total costs of the project, SIr? > > He will not answer any question related to the total cost > of project. > I mean. Man! does he wants us to believe that this is how > he has run > his business all these years, without having an idea of the > cost of > investment, or returns on investment or without having an > idea of how > he will be spending in the course of say next five years? > > Why does anyone not talk about this loot of public money in > the name > of underprivileged of India? > > Reminds me of a conversation I have had with a friend once. > He was > telling me about the atom bomb. When atom bomb was made, US > gov, hired > some linguists and propagandists i.e. communication experts > to sell > the idea of bomb to the US public. They had to sell to the > general > public, that it is morally okay for US army to slaughter a > huge number > of innocent people who had nothing to do with the war. > > Linguists zeroed in on one word. -ONLY- . The propaganda > machine > worked like mad to sell this idea. Only a couple of > thousands will be > affected. Only few hundred thousands will have to pay the > immediate > price and so on to create an impression that ‘only’ a > ‘few’ people > will be affected. > > ONLY is a deeply ambiguous word which means a variety of > things but > while used an adjective it means, being the single one or > the > relatively few of the kind. > > ONLY shares a close association with JUST which is also a > deeply > ambiguous word and when used as an adverb means, only or > merely. > > I wonder if, Mr. Nilekani is deliberately resorting to the > use of > these words to create some sort carefully calibrated > cognitive > dissonance? A type of dissonance which first justifies the > use of UID > as an aid to the underprivileged while distorting UID’s > potential as > an agency which could deeply harm the privacy of > individuals. At the > same time, I wonder whether, cognitive dissonance is used > deliberately > to take attention off from an open loot of the public > money, this > naked subsidizing to revive a middle class sector, to > revive a myth of > India as IT Superpower? > > Warm regards > > Taha > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue May 25 22:31:36 2010 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 22:31:36 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Extreme Heat in Gujarat - But No Load shedding Message-ID: Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi has in his latest blog post welcomed India’s legendary super star Amitabh Bachchan to Gujarat to promote Tourism. Modi praised Bachchan for his determination to fulfill his commitment to promote Gujarat’s tourism against all accusations. Modi writes: “Amitabhji is coming to Gujarat to promote Tourism in Gujarat and I welcome him. Gujarat is excited by his visit and a grand reception awaits him. But I want to express my inner feelings. There were plenty of innuendos and accusations when he became the brand ambassador of Gujarat tourism. Anybody in his place would have been shaken and backed out. Even his fans were worried whether he can withstand such onslaught. But Amitabhji stood tall not only due to his physical height but also due to his determination in fulfilling his commitment. For the sake of Gujarat and India Amitabhji kept his words and this sort of commitment has set highest standard in professional ethics and has become a shining example for other professionals.” Modi further states: ” In this extreme heat wave conditions, when nobody from outside can even think of visiting Kutch even if paid, Amitabhji will spend three days in the white Rann of Kutch to promote tourism without charging a single penny. His altruism speaks about his love for Gujarat and India.” On Air-India plane crash Modi in his blog writes that he worked as a volunteer when aa plane crashed in Ahmedabad many years ago. In connection with recent Mangalore crash, Modi says, ” The recent Air-India Express plane crash at hilly Mangalore airport was heart-rending to say the least. As last reports came in 158 lives had been irretrievably lost. This is a grievous loss of lives for the victims’ families and the country. The tragedy reminds me of a similar painful mishap when an airliner crashed in Ahmedabad many years ago. At that time I worked as a volunteer helping the affected. The Mangalore crash brought painful scenes of crash to my mind. I pray that such gory tragedies don’t occur and result in loss of precious human lives and trauma to the survivors and their families.” On extreme heat condition in Gujarat Modi blogs that unlike other states, Gujarat is free from power cuts and load shedding in this unthinkable temperature. He writes, “Excess heat is dogging Gujarat even as the State sizzles under temperature soaring to unthinkable 48.5 degrees Celsius, one of the highest this century. We are experiencing the effects of Global Warming. People are suffering and particularly the poor. Fortunately, unlike other States, Gujarat is free from power cuts and load shedding and one can access fans to cool themselves and get some relief. Mercifully, the forecast for normal monsoon give us hope and I wish our farmers do really benefit. On cotton export ban Modi addresses an important recent rural Gujarat related issue in his blog post. He says, “Due to ban on cotton export by Central government for unknown reasons, the farmers of Gujarat suffered heavy loss of about Rs 2000 crores in a span of one month. Though the central government rectified its decision and allowed export with licence subsequently, the delay had already caused enough damage to Gujarat’s farmers.” Modi’s complete blog post can be visited on this link:http://NarendraModi.Com From anansi1 at earthlink.net Wed May 26 01:56:44 2010 From: anansi1 at earthlink.net (Paul D. Miller) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 16:26:44 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [Reader-list] Dj Rekha plays at White House - Bhangra in effect! Message-ID: <30111792.1274819204846.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rubis.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Asia at The White House Bhangra Beats in The East Room http://www.deccanherald.com/content/71443/dj-rekhas-bhangra-enthralls-obama.html Twitter photo of Dj Rekha spinning at The White House. http://twitpic.com/1qpo9v I guess Dj Rekha is now the first DJ to play at the White House! Obama gave her mixes a shout out. ARTICLE: A stunning Bhangra performance by Indian-American DJ Rekha enthralled US President Barack Obama and his guests at the White House who had gathered to celebrate the Asian American and Pacific Islander Heritage Month. Credited with pioneering Bhangra in North America, the London-born musician, Disc Jockey, producer, curator and activist, now living in Brooklyn in New York, DJ Rekha (born Rekha Malhotra) was especially praised by Obama when he addressed eminent members of the Asian American and Pacific Islanders community at the White House yesterday evening. "I want to thank DJ Rekha who's been spinning a little East Room Bhangra for everybody mixing a hip-hop beat with the sounds of her heritage; making a uniquely American sound that may not have been heard in the White House before," Obama said amidst laughter and applause. East Room is the largest room in the White House used by the US President for entertaining, press conferences, ceremonies and for a large dinner. Several eminent Indian-Americans were invited to the occasion, including Rajan Zed from Nevada, and those in his administration. Sikhs who recently joined the US Army were also invited to the White House function. "We draw strength from the rich tradition that everybody can call America home because we all came from somewhere else except for the first Americans. "E pluribus unum." Out of many, one. And there's no better example of this than the communities that are represented in this room," Obama said. "Your role in America's story has not always been given its due. Many Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders have known tremendous unfairness and injustice during our history," Obama said. The US President said generations of Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders helped to build this country, defend this country, and make America what it is today. >From the Chinese labourers who scaled cliffs and laid ties to connect our coasts by rail, to the members of the 442nd Regimental Combat Team who fought and bled overseas while their families were interned back home; from the hundreds of thousands who bore hardship and sacrifice on the journey to Angel Island a century ago, to the more than 16 million Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders whose talents and efforts strengthen the country's economy, protect its security and enliven the communities each and every day. "And obviously this is personal for me, since you need to look no further than my family -- my sister Maya, and brother-in-law Konrad, and my two mischievous nieces -- Suhaila and Savita -- to know that it is part of America's past but is also going to be part of America's future," Obama said. "And for this reason, we are here today to celebrate these contributions. But we're also holding this event because I want to make sure that we are hearing from you so that the government does its part on your behalf, just as you're doing your part on America's behalf," he said. "That's why we're always welcoming your input: from meetings with Sikh Americans to Native Hawaiians. The goal is to make sure that our government is successfully working to address disparities in health care, in education, and economic opportunity that exists within various AAPI communities," he said. From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed May 26 09:47:07 2010 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 09:47:07 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Congress Led Secular Govt seeks Facebook Ban Message-ID: http://www.telegraphindia.com/1100526/jsp/nation/story_12488838.jsp Maharashtra seeks Facebook ban CITHARA PAUL New Delhi, May 25: The Maharashtra government has asked the Centre about the possibility of blocking social networking site Facebook following such a demand from Muslim and Christian organisations. Muslim and Christian leaders have themselves jointly written to the Prime Minister, Sonia Gandhi and the Union home ministry demanding immediate action against Facebook for displaying “blasphemous” pages. The Pakistan government, following a Lahore High Court order, has blocked Facebook for inviting its members to post caricatures deemed blasphemous. Christian groups such as the Catholic Secular Forum (CSF) are upset over various Facebook pages on Jesus Christ and Christianity. The Maharashtra additional chief secretary (home), Chandra Iyengar, has written to Union home secretary G.K. Pillai requesting a ban on Facebook, if possible. A copy of the letter has been sent to the Indian Computer Emergency Response Team, a division of the information and technology ministry. “We want the government to block Facebook for its irresponsible action. If the government does not act promptly, we will be left with no option but to take to the streets,’’ said Sohail Rokadia of the Raza Academy. The academy, a prominent Mumbai-based Sunni organisation, has taken the matter up jointly with the CSF. “The CSF believes that blasphemous pages on any religion should be taken off the website. Several pages on Facebook are worse than the pages that are being objected to by Muslims across the world,” said John Dias of the CSF. “We call upon Facebook to tender an unconditional apology for hurting the religious sentiments of millions of followers of different faiths. Such blasphemous material on the Internet has dangerous law-and-order consequences, particularly in the East. It disturbs peace and harmony in an already communally sensitive situation.” [image: Top] From cubbykabi at yahoo.com Wed May 26 09:50:03 2010 From: cubbykabi at yahoo.com (kabi cubby sherman) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 09:50:03 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: [SASIALIT] Maharashtra seeks Facebook ban Message-ID: <155510.53713.qm@web94706.mail.in2.yahoo.com> apropos what has been written about blocking facebook...... the echo from this side kabi Meter Down - काली पीली की कहानी blog: http://meterdown.wordpress.com podcast: http://feeds2.feedburner.com/meterdown ----- Forwarded Message ---- From: A S To: sasialit at mailman.rice.edu Sent: Wed, 26 May, 2010 6:06:06 AM Subject: [SASIALIT] Maharashtra seeks Facebook ban http://telegraphindia.com/1100526/jsp/nation/story_12488838.jsp ajit _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1 From aliens at dataone.in Wed May 26 09:50:09 2010 From: aliens at dataone.in (Bipin Trivedi) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 09:50:09 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Extreme Heat in Gujarat - But No Load shedding In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001e01cafc8a$bd8b9b90$38a2d2b0$@in> Dear Pawan, Who oppose for Amitji to become brand ambassador of Gujarat like Mallika and others, where are they? I am sure they will keep mum now. Since, commitment of Amitji to work even on this heat wave and without a single penny forced them to keep mum. Anyway, everyone knows Mallika staying in Gujarat but working for anti Gujarat element! Thanks Bipin -----Original Message----- From: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net [mailto:reader-list-bounces at sarai.net] On Behalf Of Pawan Durani Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 10:32 PM To: reader-list Subject: [Reader-list] Extreme Heat in Gujarat - But No Load shedding Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi has in his latest blog post welcomed India’s legendary super star Amitabh Bachchan to Gujarat to promote Tourism. Modi praised Bachchan for his determination to fulfill his commitment to promote Gujarat’s tourism against all accusations. Modi writes: “Amitabhji is coming to Gujarat to promote Tourism in Gujarat and I welcome him. Gujarat is excited by his visit and a grand reception awaits him. But I want to express my inner feelings. There were plenty of innuendos and accusations when he became the brand ambassador of Gujarat tourism. Anybody in his place would have been shaken and backed out. Even his fans were worried whether he can withstand such onslaught. But Amitabhji stood tall not only due to his physical height but also due to his determination in fulfilling his commitment. For the sake of Gujarat and India Amitabhji kept his words and this sort of commitment has set highest standard in professional ethics and has become a shining example for other professionals.” Modi further states: ” In this extreme heat wave conditions, when nobody from outside can even think of visiting Kutch even if paid, Amitabhji will spend three days in the white Rann of Kutch to promote tourism without charging a single penny. His altruism speaks about his love for Gujarat and India.” On Air-India plane crash Modi in his blog writes that he worked as a volunteer when aa plane crashed in Ahmedabad many years ago. In connection with recent Mangalore crash, Modi says, ” The recent Air-India Express plane crash at hilly Mangalore airport was heart-rending to say the least. As last reports came in 158 lives had been irretrievably lost. This is a grievous loss of lives for the victims’ families and the country. The tragedy reminds me of a similar painful mishap when an airliner crashed in Ahmedabad many years ago. At that time I worked as a volunteer helping the affected. The Mangalore crash brought painful scenes of crash to my mind. I pray that such gory tragedies don’t occur and result in loss of precious human lives and trauma to the survivors and their families.” On extreme heat condition in Gujarat Modi blogs that unlike other states, Gujarat is free from power cuts and load shedding in this unthinkable temperature. He writes, “Excess heat is dogging Gujarat even as the State sizzles under temperature soaring to unthinkable 48.5 degrees Celsius, one of the highest this century. We are experiencing the effects of Global Warming. People are suffering and particularly the poor. Fortunately, unlike other States, Gujarat is free from power cuts and load shedding and one can access fans to cool themselves and get some relief. Mercifully, the forecast for normal monsoon give us hope and I wish our farmers do really benefit. On cotton export ban Modi addresses an important recent rural Gujarat related issue in his blog post. He says, “Due to ban on cotton export by Central government for unknown reasons, the farmers of Gujarat suffered heavy loss of about Rs 2000 crores in a span of one month. Though the central government rectified its decision and allowed export with licence subsequently, the delay had already caused enough damage to Gujarat’s farmers.” Modi’s complete blog post can be visited on this link:http://NarendraModi.Com _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From akmalik45 at yahoo.com Wed May 26 12:38:21 2010 From: akmalik45 at yahoo.com (A.K. Malik) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 00:08:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?q?On_a_sublime_form_of_propaganda=3A_?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98UIDAI_is_just_the_back-end=E2=80=99?= In-Reply-To: <000801cafc29$f0bf2d80$d23d8880$@in> Message-ID: <90767.85159.qm@web112104.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> HI Bipin, As per information made available to me current data is the basic data for UID which will be followed up by finger printing etc.A separate pilot UID project unconnected with census is alreading working in Nalanda. Regards, (A.K.MALIK) --- On Tue, 5/25/10, Bipin Trivedi wrote: > From: Bipin Trivedi > Subject: RE: [Reader-list] On a sublime form of propaganda: ‘UIDAI is just the back-end’ > To: "'A.K. Malik'" > Cc: "sarai-list" > Date: Tuesday, May 25, 2010, 10:17 PM > Dear Malik, > > That was for only census and UID data not started yet. It > will be with finger print only > > Thanks > Bipin > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net > [mailto:reader-list-bounces at sarai.net] > On Behalf Of A.K. Malik > Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 6:52 PM > To: Taha Mehmood > Cc: Sarai List > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] On a sublime form of propaganda: > ‘UIDAI is just the back-end’ > > HI Taha, >            Yesterday the > fellow for Census also took data for Aadhar project from my > residence. The data items were: Name, father's name,mother's > name, date of birth & place of birth.This is for your > info pl. > With warm regards, > > (A.K.MALIK) > > > --- On Tue, 5/25/10, Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> > wrote: > > > From: Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> > > Subject: [Reader-list] On a sublime form of > propaganda: ‘UIDAI is just the back-end’ > > To: "Sarai Reader-list" > > Date: Tuesday, May 25, 2010, 1:04 PM > > Dear All > > > > Consider this: In a cognitive propaganda model, > language is > > used > > extensively to induce what is known as cognitive > > distortions. Such > > distortions are then utilized to justify an action. A > good > > example for > > this would be: The underprivileged of India are > > ‘suffering’ we give > > them a number and everything would be alright after > wards > > etc. > > > > The sublime technique of filtering is part of > Cognitive > > Propaganda. > > Now as we all know, ‘filtering’ is over-focusing > on one > > aspect of > > something to the exclusion of everything else. > > > > Now consider this: > > > > After attending a cabinet committee meeting on UIDAI > alias > > Aadhar > > alias MNIC, Mr. Nilekani spoke to the press. In this > > respect, I wish > > to > > draw your attention to the following statement given > by Mr. > > Nilekani > > about UIDAI. > > > > “We are just a number issuing and data collecting > > authority…UIDAI is > > just the back-end,” said Mr. Nilekani. > > > > http://beta.thehindu.com/news/national/article433961.ece > > > > I find the portrayal of UID by its boss Mr. Nilekani, > as a > > ‘number > > issuing authority’ very very interesting. My > interest was > > drawn to a > > particular word -JUST- > > > > Remember 1,50,000 Crores are riding behind this word > very > > innocuous > > word  -just-. 1,50,000 crores of public money > which is > > going to be > > transferred in the name of creating an archive of > > hearsays’. > > > > My respect for Mr. Nilekani has grown manifold, > because he > > seems to be > > using a very sophisticated cognitive propaganda model > to > > complete his > > brief i.e. to transfer 1,50,000 crores of public > money, in > > the name of > > a  necessary exercise, to a particular industry, > in > > the name of a > > technological ideal. > > > > Every time Mr. Nilekani comes to face the news camera > or > > talks to > > press reporters. These days he does it every day. He > will > > focus on ‘number issuing authority’ aspect of UID > in a > > very carefully > > crafted manner. > > > > What about Natgrid Sir? > > > > What about total costs of the project, SIr? > > > > He will not answer any question related to the total > cost > > of project. > > I mean. Man! does he wants us to believe that this is > how > > he has run > > his business all these years, without having an idea > of the > > cost of > > investment, or returns on investment or without having > an > > idea of how > > he will be spending in the course of say next five > years? > > > > Why does anyone not talk about this loot of public > money in > > the name > > of underprivileged of India? > > > > Reminds me of a conversation I have had with a friend > once. > > He was > > telling me about the atom bomb. When atom bomb was > made, US > > gov, hired > > some linguists and propagandists i.e. communication > experts > > to sell > > the idea of bomb to the US public. They had to sell to > the > > general > > public, that it is morally okay for US army to > slaughter a > > huge number > > of innocent people who had nothing to do with the > war. > > > > Linguists zeroed in on one word. -ONLY- . The > propaganda > > machine > > worked like mad to sell this idea. Only a couple of > > thousands will be > > affected. Only few hundred thousands will have to pay > the > > immediate > > price and so on to create an impression that > ‘only’ a > > ‘few’ people > > will be affected. > > > > ONLY is a deeply ambiguous word which means a variety > of > > things but > > while used an adjective it means, being the single one > or > > the > > relatively few of the kind. > > > > ONLY shares a close association with JUST which is > also a > > deeply > > ambiguous word and when used as an adverb means, only > or > > merely. > > > > I wonder if, Mr. Nilekani is deliberately resorting to > the > > use of > > these words to create some sort  carefully > calibrated > > cognitive > > dissonance? A type of dissonance which first justifies > the > > use of UID > > as an aid to the underprivileged while distorting > UID’s > > potential as > > an agency which could deeply harm the privacy of > > individuals. At the > > same time, I wonder whether, cognitive dissonance is > used > > deliberately > > to take attention off from an open loot of the public > > money, this > > naked subsidizing to revive a middle class sector, to > > revive a myth of > > India as IT Superpower? > > > > Warm regards > > > > Taha > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > > city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > >       > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > From shuddha at sarai.net Wed May 26 13:43:09 2010 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 13:43:09 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Congress Led Secular Govt seeks Facebook Ban In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <496A2A5B-6C4B-45F2-AC55-67749BCF7636@sarai.net> Dear All, I hope that the Maharashtra government does not stoop to the level of imbecility displayed recently by the Government of Pakistan on the 'Ban Facebook' issue. If it does, it will be a really sad day for the freedom of expression in India. The groups claiming to speak on behalf of Christians and Muslims in Maharashtra are the worst enemies of the advancement of a climate of freedom and openness for Muslims and Christians. If they prevail, it will ultimately be Muslims and Christians in Maharashtra who will be the greatest losers. They, like their Hindu counterparts (those who oppose art exhibitions in the name of Hindu tradition) need to be combatted militantly by all those who seek to keep our societies open. best Shuddha On 26-May-10, at 9:47 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > http://www.telegraphindia.com/1100526/jsp/nation/story_12488838.jsp > > Maharashtra seeks Facebook ban > CITHARA PAUL > > New Delhi, May 25: The Maharashtra government has asked the Centre > about the > possibility of blocking social networking site Facebook following > such a > demand from Muslim and Christian organisations. > > Muslim and Christian leaders have themselves jointly written to the > Prime > Minister, Sonia Gandhi and the Union home ministry demanding immediate > action against Facebook for displaying “blasphemous” pages. > > The Pakistan government, following a Lahore High Court order, has > blocked > Facebook for inviting its members to post caricatures deemed > blasphemous. > > Christian groups such as the Catholic Secular Forum (CSF) are upset > over > various Facebook pages on Jesus Christ and Christianity. > > The Maharashtra additional chief secretary (home), Chandra Iyengar, > has > written to Union home secretary G.K. Pillai requesting a ban on > Facebook, if > possible. A copy of the letter has been sent to the Indian Computer > Emergency Response Team, a division of the information and technology > ministry. > > “We want the government to block Facebook for its irresponsible > action. If > the government does not act promptly, we will be left with no > option but to > take to the streets,’’ said Sohail Rokadia of the Raza Academy. > > The academy, a prominent Mumbai-based Sunni organisation, has taken > the > matter up jointly with the CSF. > > “The CSF believes that blasphemous pages on any religion should be > taken off > the website. Several pages on Facebook are worse than the pages > that are > being objected to by Muslims across the world,” said John Dias of > the CSF. > > “We call upon Facebook to tender an unconditional apology for > hurting the > religious sentiments of millions of followers of different faiths. > Such > blasphemous material on the Internet has dangerous law-and-order > consequences, particularly in the East. It disturbs peace and > harmony in an > already communally sensitive situation.” > [image: Top] story_12488838.jsp#top> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From aliens at dataone.in Wed May 26 15:30:32 2010 From: aliens at dataone.in (Bipin Trivedi) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 15:30:32 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] NO CAVILING AT GUJARAT'S HARD FACTS Message-ID: <001a01cafcba$47ab3680$d701a380$@in> To an editorial published in the Indian Express on May 22 titled " Hard facts to face" the Gujarat Government had sent a letter in response stating the factual position regarding the status of Muslim in Gujarat. A part of the letter was published in the Indian Express dated May 26, 2010. The complete version of the letter that was sent to the Editor Indian Express is enclosed herewith so that you will be conversant with the real hard facts. Refer link: http://www.indianexpress.com/news/hard-facts-to-face/622193/0 No caviling at Gujarat's hard facts How do Muslims fare in Gujarat? They fare much better compared to other states. The objective study by the Prime Minister's high-level committee headed by Justice Rajendra Sachar, appointed by Prime Minister Dr Manmohan Singh in 2006, indicates that Muslims in Gujarat perform and fare much better when compared with other states in several key indicators such as education, employment, income and access to critical infrastructure. The editorial in the Indian Express dated May 22, 2010 is mostly based on perceptions and anecdotal evidences rather than hard facts. However the facts below speak for themselves. In trying to make out a case for Muslim children being given a raw deal in primary and upper primary school enrolment facts that has placed Muslims in Gujarat on the top of literacy ladder have been totally ignored. According to Sachar committee report the percentage of literacy of Muslims in Gujarat is 73.5 per cent, the highest in India. It is pertinent to note that this is much higher than that of national average of 59.1 per cent and also the percentage of literacy of Hindus in Gujarat which is 68.3 per cent. Even Muslim women in urban areas of Gujarat have average literacy rate 5 points higher than the national average and rural Muslim women are far much better with their literacy rate of 57 per cent as compared to the national average of 43 per cent. If Muslim children are not provided education how can Muslims in Gujarat attain the highest literacy rate in the country? During 2009-10 the enrolment of Muslim children has been 6.45 per cent (as against 4.7 per cent reported). It should be kept mind that this percentage excludes the enrolment in Madarsas and also some of the private schools which do not provide segregated data. The very fact that Muslims in Gujarat have the highest literacy rate in the country proves that they have access to education much better than in other states. If you look at Muslim education attainment those who have passed the primary stage are 74.9 per cent way ahead of the national average 60.9 per cent. In the category of those who passed secondary education Gujarat at 45.3 is ahead of the national average of 40.5 per cent. Even in the category of those who have passed higher secondary level Gujarat with 26.1 per cent is ahead of the national average of 23.9 per cent. In the average years of secondary schooling provided between the age group of 7-16 once again Gujarat with 4.29 per cent is ahead of the nationa Your reference to Juhapura area of Ahmedabad lacking schools due to "gradual disentitlement and ghettoisation of Gujarat's Muslims" is specious to the say the least as the facts prove otherwise. There are eight high schools out of which three are government-aided schools. In Juhapura and surrounding areas there are 13 municipal primary schools funded by the state government and also 15 private schools. Far from being ghettoized there is ample opportunity for the Muslim children to enroll themselves. Secondly it has become a knee-jerk habit of secularists to pooh-pooh the good governance of the state of Gujarat. And as to your question if "his fabled governance genius translate into a better life for those his politics rejects?" the answer is clearly in the Sachar report which has called the bluff of those who have tried to besmirch Gujarat. In the very social sectors which your editorial cites as the indicator of percolation of development to the minorities, Sachar Committee report reveals the performance of Gujarat is far better than many other states. The document also reveals Gujarat is far ahead in terms of providing education facilities and health facilities. If we take the case availability of schools in villages where there is Muslim population Gujarat is far ahead of the national average. In the category of villages with population of Muslims more than 2000 all the villages have education facility as against 98.7 per cent national average. In the category of 1000 to 2000 population, 99.9 per cent villages have education facilities as against the national average of 95.4 per cent. In the category of less than 1000 population 98.6 per cent of the villages have education facility as against the national average of 80.4 per cent. When we consider the availability of medical facilities in villages, where Muslim population is more 2000, 89.9 per cent of the villages have medical facilities as against the national average of 70.7 per cent. In the category of 1000-2000 population, 66.67 per cent of villages have medical facilities against the national average of 43.5 per cent. In the category of villages less than 1000 population, 53 per cent of the villages have medical facilities as against the national average of 20.2 per cent. Even in the case of other indicators such as road connectivity, availability of pucca approach road etc Gujarat is far ahead of national average and many other states. Even on per month per capita income of Muslims is more than the Hindus of Gujarat in rural areas. For Muslims it stands at Rs 668 compared to Rs 644 for Hindus (SCs Rs 527 and OBCs Rs 594). This is much higher than many other states for example Andhra Pradesh (Rs 610); West Bengal (Rs 501); UP (Rs 509); Karnataka (Rs 532); MP (Rs 475) . The per capita income of Muslims in urban areas is also higher than the national average and many other states. (see Sachar report). The prosperity of Muslims in Gujarat when compared with other states is reflected in terms of the bank account wise average deposit. For instance Gujarat it is Rs 32,932 compared to West Bengal Rs 13, 824, Assam Rs 26,319 to cite a few examples. If you take the employment of Muslims in critical departments of government such as home department, state transport dept and even in public sectors the percentage of Muslims occupying high posts is higher in Gujarat when compared with other States. Just to cite an example in Gujarat where the percentage of Muslims is 9.1 the proportion of Muslims in high posts is 8.5 per cent whereas in West Bengal where the Muslim population is 25.2 per cent the proportion of Muslims is merely 1.2 per cent. To discuss on each and every parameter to establish that Muslims fare far better in Gujarat is neither required nor possible to enumerate in a letter. Your editorial mentions that Modi should be open to verification of his claims of inclusive development. The above mentioned facts clearly demonstrate that better governance in Gujarat has been translated into a better life for all the people in Gujarat, including the minorities. Your editorial recommends open verification of the claims. The high-powered committee appointed by the Prime Minister has to a great extent not only verified the claims but also clearly established that these claims are true. From c.anupam at gmail.com Wed May 26 16:43:02 2010 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 16:43:02 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] NO CAVILING AT GUJARAT'S HARD FACTS In-Reply-To: <001a01cafcba$47ab3680$d701a380$@in> References: <001a01cafcba$47ab3680$d701a380$@in> Message-ID: Bipin, I have a few questions for you: When was the Sachar committee report filed? Was there any such committee before Sachar to assess the condition of one particular community as mentioned in your post? Do you think a comparative analysis is required in ascertaining the conditions prevalent in the community now and then? thanks anupam On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 3:30 PM, Bipin Trivedi wrote: > To an editorial published in the Indian Express on May 22 titled " > Hard facts > to > face" the Gujarat Government had sent a letter in response stating the > factual position regarding the status of Muslim in Gujarat. > A part of the > letter > was published in the Indian Express dated May 26, 2010. The complete > version > of the letter that was sent to the Editor Indian Express is enclosed > herewith so that you will be conversant with the real hard facts. > > > > Refer link: http://www.indianexpress.com/news/hard-facts-to-face/622193/0 > > > No caviling at Gujarat's hard facts > > How do Muslims fare in Gujarat? They fare much better compared to other > states. The objective study by the Prime Minister's high-level committee > headed by Justice Rajendra Sachar, appointed by Prime Minister Dr Manmohan > Singh in 2006, indicates that Muslims in Gujarat perform and fare much > better when compared with other states in several key indicators such as > education, employment, income and access to critical infrastructure. The > editorial in the Indian Express dated May 22, 2010 is mostly based on > perceptions and anecdotal evidences rather than hard facts. However the > facts below speak for themselves. > > In trying to make out a case for Muslim children being given a raw deal in > primary and upper primary school enrolment facts that has placed Muslims in > Gujarat on the top of literacy ladder have been totally ignored. According > to Sachar committee report the percentage of literacy of Muslims in Gujarat > is 73.5 per cent, the highest in India. It is pertinent to note that this > is > much higher than that of national average of 59.1 per cent and also the > percentage of literacy of Hindus in Gujarat which is 68.3 per cent. Even > Muslim women in urban areas of Gujarat have average literacy rate 5 points > higher than the national average and rural Muslim women are far much better > with their literacy rate of 57 per cent as compared to the national average > of 43 per cent. If Muslim children are not provided education how can > Muslims in Gujarat attain the highest literacy rate in the country? > > During 2009-10 the enrolment of Muslim children has been 6.45 per cent (as > against 4.7 per cent reported). It should be kept mind that this percentage > excludes the enrolment in Madarsas and also some of the private schools > which do not provide segregated data. The very fact that Muslims in Gujarat > have the highest literacy rate in the country proves that they have access > to education much better than in other states. If you look at Muslim > education attainment those who have passed the primary stage are 74.9 per > cent way ahead of the national average 60.9 per cent. In the category of > those who passed secondary education Gujarat at 45.3 is ahead of the > national average of 40.5 per cent. Even in the category of those who have > passed higher secondary level Gujarat with 26.1 per cent is ahead of the > national average of 23.9 per cent. In the average years of secondary > schooling provided between the age group of 7-16 once again Gujarat with > 4.29 per cent is ahead of the nationa Your reference to Juhapura area of > Ahmedabad lacking schools due to "gradual disentitlement and ghettoisation > of Gujarat's Muslims" is specious to the say the least as the facts prove > otherwise. There are eight high schools out of which three are > government-aided schools. In Juhapura and surrounding areas there are 13 > municipal primary schools funded by the state government and also 15 > private > schools. Far from being ghettoized there is ample opportunity for the > Muslim > children to enroll themselves. > > Secondly it has become a knee-jerk habit of secularists to pooh-pooh the > good governance of the state of Gujarat. And as to your question if "his > fabled governance genius translate into a better life for those his > politics > rejects?" the answer is clearly in the Sachar report which has called the > bluff of those who have tried to besmirch Gujarat. > > In the very social sectors which your editorial cites as the indicator of > percolation of development to the minorities, Sachar Committee report > reveals the performance of Gujarat is far better than many other states. > The > document also reveals Gujarat is far ahead in terms of providing education > facilities and health facilities. If we take the case availability of > schools in villages where there is Muslim population Gujarat is far ahead > of > the national average. In the category of villages with population of > Muslims > more than 2000 all the villages have education facility as against 98.7 per > cent national average. In the category of 1000 to 2000 population, 99.9 per > cent villages have education facilities as against the national average of > 95.4 per cent. In the category of less than 1000 population 98.6 per cent > of > the villages have education facility as against the national average of > 80.4 > per cent. > > When we consider the availability of medical facilities in villages, where > Muslim population is more 2000, 89.9 per cent of the villages have medical > facilities as against the national average of 70.7 per cent. In the > category > of 1000-2000 population, 66.67 per cent of villages have medical facilities > against the national average of 43.5 per cent. In the category of villages > less than 1000 population, 53 per cent of the villages have medical > facilities as against the national average of 20.2 per cent. > > Even in the case of other indicators such as road connectivity, > availability > of pucca approach road etc Gujarat is far ahead of national average and > many > other states. Even on per month per capita income of Muslims is more than > the Hindus of Gujarat in rural areas. For Muslims it stands at Rs 668 > compared to Rs 644 for Hindus (SCs Rs 527 and OBCs Rs 594). This is much > higher than many other states for example Andhra Pradesh (Rs 610); West > Bengal (Rs 501); UP (Rs 509); Karnataka (Rs 532); MP (Rs 475) . The per > capita income of Muslims in urban areas is also higher than the national > average and many other states. (see Sachar report). The prosperity of > Muslims in Gujarat when compared with other states is reflected in terms of > the bank account wise average deposit. For instance Gujarat it is Rs 32,932 > compared to West Bengal Rs 13, 824, Assam Rs 26,319 to cite a few examples. > > If you take the employment of Muslims in critical departments of government > such as home department, state transport dept and even in public sectors > the > percentage of Muslims occupying high posts is higher in Gujarat when > compared with other States. Just to cite an example in Gujarat where the > percentage of Muslims is 9.1 the proportion of Muslims in high posts is 8.5 > per cent whereas in West Bengal where the Muslim population is 25.2 per > cent > the proportion of Muslims is merely 1.2 per cent. > > To discuss on each and every parameter to establish that Muslims fare far > better in Gujarat is neither required nor possible to enumerate in a > letter. > Your editorial mentions that Modi should be open to verification of his > claims of inclusive development. The above mentioned facts clearly > demonstrate that better governance in Gujarat has been translated into a > better life for all the people in Gujarat, including the minorities. Your > editorial recommends open verification of the claims. The high-powered > committee appointed by the Prime Minister has to a great extent not only > verified the claims but also clearly established that these claims are > true. > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed May 26 16:56:52 2010 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 16:56:52 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] NO CAVILING AT GUJARAT'S HARD FACTS In-Reply-To: References: <001a01cafcba$47ab3680$d701a380$@in> Message-ID: Any idea of recent communal riot in Shahpur , Ahmedabad....I dont see anyone discussing that. pawan On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 4:43 PM, anupam chakravartty wrote: > Bipin, > > I have a few questions for you: When was the Sachar committee report filed? > Was there any such committee before Sachar to assess the condition of one > particular community as mentioned in your post? Do you think a comparative > analysis is required in ascertaining the conditions prevalent in the > community now and then? > > thanks anupam > > On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 3:30 PM, Bipin Trivedi wrote: > > > To an editorial published in the Indian Express on May 22 titled " > > Hard > facts > > to > > face" the Gujarat Government had sent a letter in response stating the > > factual position regarding the status of Muslim in Gujarat. > > A part of the > > letter > > was published in the Indian Express dated May 26, 2010. The complete > > version > > of the letter that was sent to the Editor Indian Express is enclosed > > herewith so that you will be conversant with the real hard facts. > > > > > > > > Refer link: > http://www.indianexpress.com/news/hard-facts-to-face/622193/0 > > > > > > No caviling at Gujarat's hard facts > > > > How do Muslims fare in Gujarat? They fare much better compared to other > > states. The objective study by the Prime Minister's high-level committee > > headed by Justice Rajendra Sachar, appointed by Prime Minister Dr > Manmohan > > Singh in 2006, indicates that Muslims in Gujarat perform and fare much > > better when compared with other states in several key indicators such as > > education, employment, income and access to critical infrastructure. The > > editorial in the Indian Express dated May 22, 2010 is mostly based on > > perceptions and anecdotal evidences rather than hard facts. However the > > facts below speak for themselves. > > > > In trying to make out a case for Muslim children being given a raw deal > in > > primary and upper primary school enrolment facts that has placed Muslims > in > > Gujarat on the top of literacy ladder have been totally ignored. > According > > to Sachar committee report the percentage of literacy of Muslims in > Gujarat > > is 73.5 per cent, the highest in India. It is pertinent to note that this > > is > > much higher than that of national average of 59.1 per cent and also the > > percentage of literacy of Hindus in Gujarat which is 68.3 per cent. Even > > Muslim women in urban areas of Gujarat have average literacy rate 5 > points > > higher than the national average and rural Muslim women are far much > better > > with their literacy rate of 57 per cent as compared to the national > average > > of 43 per cent. If Muslim children are not provided education how can > > Muslims in Gujarat attain the highest literacy rate in the country? > > > > During 2009-10 the enrolment of Muslim children has been 6.45 per cent > (as > > against 4.7 per cent reported). It should be kept mind that this > percentage > > excludes the enrolment in Madarsas and also some of the private schools > > which do not provide segregated data. The very fact that Muslims in > Gujarat > > have the highest literacy rate in the country proves that they have > access > > to education much better than in other states. If you look at Muslim > > education attainment those who have passed the primary stage are 74.9 per > > cent way ahead of the national average 60.9 per cent. In the category of > > those who passed secondary education Gujarat at 45.3 is ahead of the > > national average of 40.5 per cent. Even in the category of those who have > > passed higher secondary level Gujarat with 26.1 per cent is ahead of the > > national average of 23.9 per cent. In the average years of secondary > > schooling provided between the age group of 7-16 once again Gujarat with > > 4.29 per cent is ahead of the nationa Your reference to Juhapura area of > > Ahmedabad lacking schools due to "gradual disentitlement and > ghettoisation > > of Gujarat's Muslims" is specious to the say the least as the facts prove > > otherwise. There are eight high schools out of which three are > > government-aided schools. In Juhapura and surrounding areas there are 13 > > municipal primary schools funded by the state government and also 15 > > private > > schools. Far from being ghettoized there is ample opportunity for the > > Muslim > > children to enroll themselves. > > > > Secondly it has become a knee-jerk habit of secularists to pooh-pooh the > > good governance of the state of Gujarat. And as to your question if "his > > fabled governance genius translate into a better life for those his > > politics > > rejects?" the answer is clearly in the Sachar report which has called the > > bluff of those who have tried to besmirch Gujarat. > > > > In the very social sectors which your editorial cites as the indicator of > > percolation of development to the minorities, Sachar Committee report > > reveals the performance of Gujarat is far better than many other states. > > The > > document also reveals Gujarat is far ahead in terms of providing > education > > facilities and health facilities. If we take the case availability of > > schools in villages where there is Muslim population Gujarat is far ahead > > of > > the national average. In the category of villages with population of > > Muslims > > more than 2000 all the villages have education facility as against 98.7 > per > > cent national average. In the category of 1000 to 2000 population, 99.9 > per > > cent villages have education facilities as against the national average > of > > 95.4 per cent. In the category of less than 1000 population 98.6 per cent > > of > > the villages have education facility as against the national average of > > 80.4 > > per cent. > > > > When we consider the availability of medical facilities in villages, > where > > Muslim population is more 2000, 89.9 per cent of the villages have > medical > > facilities as against the national average of 70.7 per cent. In the > > category > > of 1000-2000 population, 66.67 per cent of villages have medical > facilities > > against the national average of 43.5 per cent. In the category of > villages > > less than 1000 population, 53 per cent of the villages have medical > > facilities as against the national average of 20.2 per cent. > > > > Even in the case of other indicators such as road connectivity, > > availability > > of pucca approach road etc Gujarat is far ahead of national average and > > many > > other states. Even on per month per capita income of Muslims is more than > > the Hindus of Gujarat in rural areas. For Muslims it stands at Rs 668 > > compared to Rs 644 for Hindus (SCs Rs 527 and OBCs Rs 594). This is much > > higher than many other states for example Andhra Pradesh (Rs 610); West > > Bengal (Rs 501); UP (Rs 509); Karnataka (Rs 532); MP (Rs 475) . The per > > capita income of Muslims in urban areas is also higher than the national > > average and many other states. (see Sachar report). The prosperity of > > Muslims in Gujarat when compared with other states is reflected in terms > of > > the bank account wise average deposit. For instance Gujarat it is Rs > 32,932 > > compared to West Bengal Rs 13, 824, Assam Rs 26,319 to cite a few > examples. > > > > If you take the employment of Muslims in critical departments of > government > > such as home department, state transport dept and even in public sectors > > the > > percentage of Muslims occupying high posts is higher in Gujarat when > > compared with other States. Just to cite an example in Gujarat where the > > percentage of Muslims is 9.1 the proportion of Muslims in high posts is > 8.5 > > per cent whereas in West Bengal where the Muslim population is 25.2 per > > cent > > the proportion of Muslims is merely 1.2 per cent. > > > > To discuss on each and every parameter to establish that Muslims fare far > > better in Gujarat is neither required nor possible to enumerate in a > > letter. > > Your editorial mentions that Modi should be open to verification of his > > claims of inclusive development. The above mentioned facts clearly > > demonstrate that better governance in Gujarat has been translated into a > > better life for all the people in Gujarat, including the minorities. Your > > editorial recommends open verification of the claims. The high-powered > > committee appointed by the Prime Minister has to a great extent not only > > verified the claims but also clearly established that these claims are > > true. > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From c.anupam at gmail.com Wed May 26 17:14:55 2010 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 17:14:55 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] NO CAVILING AT GUJARAT'S HARD FACTS In-Reply-To: References: <001a01cafcba$47ab3680$d701a380$@in> Message-ID: Pawan, An idol was desecrated just like temples were brought down in Gandhinagar and Mazars was razed in Karjan in Vadodara district, graves razed in Dahod, just like a Swami murdered in Vadtal at the swaminarayan temple. actually you know what, the God in that idol was killed long ago by their own believers. Didnt you know that Pawan? Pity that you are so blissfully unaware about it and feign some kind of innocence in initiating a discussion on communal rioting in Shahpur. That riots have become institutionalized in Gujarat and people place bets on them is a known fact as demonstrated by the arrest of Vadodara bookie, Arvind Valand last year where he confessed. for all you know, your discussion about this particular might be bringing more cash for the bookies. Instead you could address some of the questions i have put up for Bipin. anupam On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 4:56 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Any idea of recent communal riot in Shahpur , Ahmedabad....I dont see > anyone discussing that. > > pawan > > > On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 4:43 PM, anupam chakravartty wrote: > >> Bipin, >> >> I have a few questions for you: When was the Sachar committee report >> filed? >> Was there any such committee before Sachar to assess the condition of one >> particular community as mentioned in your post? Do you think a comparative >> analysis is required in ascertaining the conditions prevalent in the >> community now and then? >> >> thanks anupam >> >> On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 3:30 PM, Bipin Trivedi wrote: >> >> > To an editorial published in the Indian Express on May 22 titled " >> > Hard >> facts >> > to >> > face" the Gujarat Government had sent a letter in response stating the >> > factual position regarding the status of Muslim in Gujarat. >> > A part of the >> > letter >> > was published in the Indian Express dated May 26, 2010. The complete >> > version >> > of the letter that was sent to the Editor Indian Express is enclosed >> > herewith so that you will be conversant with the real hard facts. >> > >> > >> > >> > Refer link: >> http://www.indianexpress.com/news/hard-facts-to-face/622193/0 >> > >> > >> > No caviling at Gujarat's hard facts >> > >> > How do Muslims fare in Gujarat? They fare much better compared to other >> > states. The objective study by the Prime Minister's high-level committee >> > headed by Justice Rajendra Sachar, appointed by Prime Minister Dr >> Manmohan >> > Singh in 2006, indicates that Muslims in Gujarat perform and fare much >> > better when compared with other states in several key indicators such as >> > education, employment, income and access to critical infrastructure. The >> > editorial in the Indian Express dated May 22, 2010 is mostly based on >> > perceptions and anecdotal evidences rather than hard facts. However the >> > facts below speak for themselves. >> > >> > In trying to make out a case for Muslim children being given a raw deal >> in >> > primary and upper primary school enrolment facts that has placed Muslims >> in >> > Gujarat on the top of literacy ladder have been totally ignored. >> According >> > to Sachar committee report the percentage of literacy of Muslims in >> Gujarat >> > is 73.5 per cent, the highest in India. It is pertinent to note that >> this >> > is >> > much higher than that of national average of 59.1 per cent and also the >> > percentage of literacy of Hindus in Gujarat which is 68.3 per cent. Even >> > Muslim women in urban areas of Gujarat have average literacy rate 5 >> points >> > higher than the national average and rural Muslim women are far much >> better >> > with their literacy rate of 57 per cent as compared to the national >> average >> > of 43 per cent. If Muslim children are not provided education how can >> > Muslims in Gujarat attain the highest literacy rate in the country? >> > >> > During 2009-10 the enrolment of Muslim children has been 6.45 per cent >> (as >> > against 4.7 per cent reported). It should be kept mind that this >> percentage >> > excludes the enrolment in Madarsas and also some of the private schools >> > which do not provide segregated data. The very fact that Muslims in >> Gujarat >> > have the highest literacy rate in the country proves that they have >> access >> > to education much better than in other states. If you look at Muslim >> > education attainment those who have passed the primary stage are 74.9 >> per >> > cent way ahead of the national average 60.9 per cent. In the category of >> > those who passed secondary education Gujarat at 45.3 is ahead of the >> > national average of 40.5 per cent. Even in the category of those who >> have >> > passed higher secondary level Gujarat with 26.1 per cent is ahead of the >> > national average of 23.9 per cent. In the average years of secondary >> > schooling provided between the age group of 7-16 once again Gujarat with >> > 4.29 per cent is ahead of the nationa Your reference to Juhapura area of >> > Ahmedabad lacking schools due to "gradual disentitlement and >> ghettoisation >> > of Gujarat's Muslims" is specious to the say the least as the facts >> prove >> > otherwise. There are eight high schools out of which three are >> > government-aided schools. In Juhapura and surrounding areas there are 13 >> > municipal primary schools funded by the state government and also 15 >> > private >> > schools. Far from being ghettoized there is ample opportunity for the >> > Muslim >> > children to enroll themselves. >> > >> > Secondly it has become a knee-jerk habit of secularists to pooh-pooh the >> > good governance of the state of Gujarat. And as to your question if "his >> > fabled governance genius translate into a better life for those his >> > politics >> > rejects?" the answer is clearly in the Sachar report which has called >> the >> > bluff of those who have tried to besmirch Gujarat. >> > >> > In the very social sectors which your editorial cites as the indicator >> of >> > percolation of development to the minorities, Sachar Committee report >> > reveals the performance of Gujarat is far better than many other states. >> > The >> > document also reveals Gujarat is far ahead in terms of providing >> education >> > facilities and health facilities. If we take the case availability of >> > schools in villages where there is Muslim population Gujarat is far >> ahead >> > of >> > the national average. In the category of villages with population of >> > Muslims >> > more than 2000 all the villages have education facility as against 98.7 >> per >> > cent national average. In the category of 1000 to 2000 population, 99.9 >> per >> > cent villages have education facilities as against the national average >> of >> > 95.4 per cent. In the category of less than 1000 population 98.6 per >> cent >> > of >> > the villages have education facility as against the national average of >> > 80.4 >> > per cent. >> > >> > When we consider the availability of medical facilities in villages, >> where >> > Muslim population is more 2000, 89.9 per cent of the villages have >> medical >> > facilities as against the national average of 70.7 per cent. In the >> > category >> > of 1000-2000 population, 66.67 per cent of villages have medical >> facilities >> > against the national average of 43.5 per cent. In the category of >> villages >> > less than 1000 population, 53 per cent of the villages have medical >> > facilities as against the national average of 20.2 per cent. >> > >> > Even in the case of other indicators such as road connectivity, >> > availability >> > of pucca approach road etc Gujarat is far ahead of national average and >> > many >> > other states. Even on per month per capita income of Muslims is more >> than >> > the Hindus of Gujarat in rural areas. For Muslims it stands at Rs 668 >> > compared to Rs 644 for Hindus (SCs Rs 527 and OBCs Rs 594). This is much >> > higher than many other states for example Andhra Pradesh (Rs 610); West >> > Bengal (Rs 501); UP (Rs 509); Karnataka (Rs 532); MP (Rs 475) . The per >> > capita income of Muslims in urban areas is also higher than the national >> > average and many other states. (see Sachar report). The prosperity of >> > Muslims in Gujarat when compared with other states is reflected in terms >> of >> > the bank account wise average deposit. For instance Gujarat it is Rs >> 32,932 >> > compared to West Bengal Rs 13, 824, Assam Rs 26,319 to cite a few >> examples. >> > >> > If you take the employment of Muslims in critical departments of >> government >> > such as home department, state transport dept and even in public sectors >> > the >> > percentage of Muslims occupying high posts is higher in Gujarat when >> > compared with other States. Just to cite an example in Gujarat where the >> > percentage of Muslims is 9.1 the proportion of Muslims in high posts is >> 8.5 >> > per cent whereas in West Bengal where the Muslim population is 25.2 per >> > cent >> > the proportion of Muslims is merely 1.2 per cent. >> > >> > To discuss on each and every parameter to establish that Muslims fare >> far >> > better in Gujarat is neither required nor possible to enumerate in a >> > letter. >> > Your editorial mentions that Modi should be open to verification of his >> > claims of inclusive development. The above mentioned facts clearly >> > demonstrate that better governance in Gujarat has been translated into a >> > better life for all the people in Gujarat, including the minorities. >> Your >> > editorial recommends open verification of the claims. The high-powered >> > committee appointed by the Prime Minister has to a great extent not only >> > verified the claims but also clearly established that these claims are >> > true. >> > >> > >> > >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > From ysaeed7 at yahoo.com Wed May 26 17:16:51 2010 From: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com (Yousuf) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 04:46:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] manufacturing flags for burning Message-ID: <947792.17690.qm@web51407.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Facebook fuels American flag business in Pak AFP, May 26, 2010, 12.23pm IST KARACHI: In Pakistan a row about Facebook, censorship and religious sacrilege means booming demand for replica American and Israeli flags to go up in flames at protest rallies. That means one thing for 31-year-old Mamoon ur Rasheed – business – and he is working long into the night to churn out the paraphernalia beloved of Islamic activists taking to the streets. "I have nothing to do with any political party, but it is really enjoyable when you see your work on TV screens," a laughing Rasheed said. "I'm busy every day making banners and placards for different religious and political parties, but work gets a boost – especially when international controversy concerning Muslims breaks out," he said. When a Facebook user decided to organise an "Everyone Draw Mohammed Day" competition to promote "freedom of expression", it sparked a major backlash among Islamic activists in the South Asian country of 170 million. Islam strictly prohibits the depiction of any prophet as blasphemous and the row sparked comparison with protests across the Muslim world over the publication of satirical cartoons of Mohammed in European newspapers in 2006. Several thousand Pakistanis have taken to the streets at the behest of right-wing religious groups, who turn to Rasheed when they need flags to burn and banners to write. "Generally, we receive orders for banners for a couple of demonstrations a day, but due to the blasphemous drawings issue, the number of orders for flags and banners has increased by 10 to 12 per day," said Rasheed. "Flags are made for burning. They symbolise what our clients want to express and we are paid for it, so I'm happy to see our work go up in flames." Rasheed owns a workshop where he employs four craftsmen to paint flags and write calligraphy, and a small printing press. "We have received continuous orders for American and Israeli flags. Normally we paint them but when demand surges into the hundreds we print these flags to get them to our clients in time," he said. In the wake of the Prophet Mohammed controversy, Pakistan blocked hundreds of web pages to limit access to "blasphemous" material, banning access to US-based Facebook and YouTube – the two most popular websites in the country. A court in the eastern city of Lahore ordered the block on Facebook until at least May 31, when it is scheduled to hear a petition from Islamic lawyers. Although none of the protests has mobilised the masses, sporadic demonstrators have continued to vent anger in Karachi and other cities. Rasheed runs his business on times of stress. Different periods mean demand for the flags of India – Pakistan's deepest rival with whom the country has fought three wars – Norway and Sweden, and former colonial ruler Britain. Four years ago, widespread protests broke out in the conservative Muslim nation over satirical cartoons of Mohammed that were published by a Danish newspaper and then reprinted in other European countries. Then in 2008, thousands of Pakistani Islamists rallied against an anti-Koran film made by a far-right Dutch lawmaker. Another focal point for anger has been Swedish artist Lars Vilks, who etched a blasphemous caricature. Whenever elections approach or protests start, wholesalers stock huge quantities of cheap cloth and reap handsome rewards. "We are getting bigger orders from scores of painters and printers nowadays," cloth merchant Mohammad Siddique said. "Pakistan is the country of protests and for this Karachi is undoubtedly its capital and our business gets a boost in such circumstances," Siddique said. Waqar Ahmed, owner of a printing press in Karachi's southern neighbourhood Pakistan Chowk, says orders are flooding in for posters, pamphlets and placards, temporarily overtaking his main business in books and wedding cards. "I get orders for pamphlets and posters in the event of controversies or elections," Waqar says. May 15, when Palestinians marked Naqba day – the so-called catastrophe of Israel's creation in 1948 – is another landmark. "I got some orders to print flags of Israel and United States – 100 a piece – during Naqba rallies. We have also sold some American and Swedish flags during the protests against Facebook," Ahmed said. From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed May 26 17:26:36 2010 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 17:26:36 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] NO CAVILING AT GUJARAT'S HARD FACTS In-Reply-To: References: <001a01cafcba$47ab3680$d701a380$@in> Message-ID: Anupam, It seems you re always angry ....Never knew that a query would infuriate you so much. In recent case a Hindu marriage procession was not allowed to pass a road where a mosque also existed. What else do you need to know Mr Anupam C pawan On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 5:14 PM, anupam chakravartty wrote: > Pawan, > > An idol was desecrated just like temples were brought down in Gandhinagar > and Mazars was razed in Karjan in Vadodara district, graves razed in Dahod, > just like a Swami murdered in Vadtal at the swaminarayan temple. actually > you know what, the God in that idol was killed long ago by their own > believers. Didnt you know that Pawan? Pity that you are so blissfully > unaware about it and feign some kind of innocence in initiating a discussion > on communal rioting in Shahpur. That riots have become institutionalized in > Gujarat and people place bets on them is a known fact as demonstrated by the > arrest of Vadodara bookie, Arvind Valand last year where he confessed. for > all you know, your discussion about this particular might be bringing more > cash for the bookies. > > Instead you could address some of the questions i have put up for Bipin. > > anupam > > On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 4:56 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > >> Any idea of recent communal riot in Shahpur , Ahmedabad....I dont see >> anyone discussing that. >> >> pawan >> >> >> On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 4:43 PM, anupam chakravartty wrote: >> >>> Bipin, >>> >>> I have a few questions for you: When was the Sachar committee report >>> filed? >>> Was there any such committee before Sachar to assess the condition of one >>> particular community as mentioned in your post? Do you think a >>> comparative >>> analysis is required in ascertaining the conditions prevalent in the >>> community now and then? >>> >>> thanks anupam >>> >>> On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 3:30 PM, Bipin Trivedi >>> wrote: >>> >>> > To an editorial published in the Indian Express on May 22 titled " >>> > Hard >>> facts >>> > to >>> > face" the Gujarat Government had sent a letter in response stating the >>> > factual position regarding the status of Muslim in Gujarat. >>> > A part of the >>> > letter >>> > was published in the Indian Express dated May 26, 2010. The complete >>> > version >>> > of the letter that was sent to the Editor Indian Express is enclosed >>> > herewith so that you will be conversant with the real hard facts. >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > Refer link: >>> http://www.indianexpress.com/news/hard-facts-to-face/622193/0 >>> > >>> > >>> > No caviling at Gujarat's hard facts >>> > >>> > How do Muslims fare in Gujarat? They fare much better compared to other >>> > states. The objective study by the Prime Minister's high-level >>> committee >>> > headed by Justice Rajendra Sachar, appointed by Prime Minister Dr >>> Manmohan >>> > Singh in 2006, indicates that Muslims in Gujarat perform and fare much >>> > better when compared with other states in several key indicators such >>> as >>> > education, employment, income and access to critical infrastructure. >>> The >>> > editorial in the Indian Express dated May 22, 2010 is mostly based on >>> > perceptions and anecdotal evidences rather than hard facts. However the >>> > facts below speak for themselves. >>> > >>> > In trying to make out a case for Muslim children being given a raw deal >>> in >>> > primary and upper primary school enrolment facts that has placed >>> Muslims in >>> > Gujarat on the top of literacy ladder have been totally ignored. >>> According >>> > to Sachar committee report the percentage of literacy of Muslims in >>> Gujarat >>> > is 73.5 per cent, the highest in India. It is pertinent to note that >>> this >>> > is >>> > much higher than that of national average of 59.1 per cent and also the >>> > percentage of literacy of Hindus in Gujarat which is 68.3 per cent. >>> Even >>> > Muslim women in urban areas of Gujarat have average literacy rate 5 >>> points >>> > higher than the national average and rural Muslim women are far much >>> better >>> > with their literacy rate of 57 per cent as compared to the national >>> average >>> > of 43 per cent. If Muslim children are not provided education how can >>> > Muslims in Gujarat attain the highest literacy rate in the country? >>> > >>> > During 2009-10 the enrolment of Muslim children has been 6.45 per cent >>> (as >>> > against 4.7 per cent reported). It should be kept mind that this >>> percentage >>> > excludes the enrolment in Madarsas and also some of the private schools >>> > which do not provide segregated data. The very fact that Muslims in >>> Gujarat >>> > have the highest literacy rate in the country proves that they have >>> access >>> > to education much better than in other states. If you look at Muslim >>> > education attainment those who have passed the primary stage are 74.9 >>> per >>> > cent way ahead of the national average 60.9 per cent. In the category >>> of >>> > those who passed secondary education Gujarat at 45.3 is ahead of the >>> > national average of 40.5 per cent. Even in the category of those who >>> have >>> > passed higher secondary level Gujarat with 26.1 per cent is ahead of >>> the >>> > national average of 23.9 per cent. In the average years of secondary >>> > schooling provided between the age group of 7-16 once again Gujarat >>> with >>> > 4.29 per cent is ahead of the nationa Your reference to Juhapura area >>> of >>> > Ahmedabad lacking schools due to "gradual disentitlement and >>> ghettoisation >>> > of Gujarat's Muslims" is specious to the say the least as the facts >>> prove >>> > otherwise. There are eight high schools out of which three are >>> > government-aided schools. In Juhapura and surrounding areas there are >>> 13 >>> > municipal primary schools funded by the state government and also 15 >>> > private >>> > schools. Far from being ghettoized there is ample opportunity for the >>> > Muslim >>> > children to enroll themselves. >>> > >>> > Secondly it has become a knee-jerk habit of secularists to pooh-pooh >>> the >>> > good governance of the state of Gujarat. And as to your question if >>> "his >>> > fabled governance genius translate into a better life for those his >>> > politics >>> > rejects?" the answer is clearly in the Sachar report which has called >>> the >>> > bluff of those who have tried to besmirch Gujarat. >>> > >>> > In the very social sectors which your editorial cites as the indicator >>> of >>> > percolation of development to the minorities, Sachar Committee report >>> > reveals the performance of Gujarat is far better than many other >>> states. >>> > The >>> > document also reveals Gujarat is far ahead in terms of providing >>> education >>> > facilities and health facilities. If we take the case availability of >>> > schools in villages where there is Muslim population Gujarat is far >>> ahead >>> > of >>> > the national average. In the category of villages with population of >>> > Muslims >>> > more than 2000 all the villages have education facility as against 98.7 >>> per >>> > cent national average. In the category of 1000 to 2000 population, 99.9 >>> per >>> > cent villages have education facilities as against the national average >>> of >>> > 95.4 per cent. In the category of less than 1000 population 98.6 per >>> cent >>> > of >>> > the villages have education facility as against the national average of >>> > 80.4 >>> > per cent. >>> > >>> > When we consider the availability of medical facilities in villages, >>> where >>> > Muslim population is more 2000, 89.9 per cent of the villages have >>> medical >>> > facilities as against the national average of 70.7 per cent. In the >>> > category >>> > of 1000-2000 population, 66.67 per cent of villages have medical >>> facilities >>> > against the national average of 43.5 per cent. In the category of >>> villages >>> > less than 1000 population, 53 per cent of the villages have medical >>> > facilities as against the national average of 20.2 per cent. >>> > >>> > Even in the case of other indicators such as road connectivity, >>> > availability >>> > of pucca approach road etc Gujarat is far ahead of national average and >>> > many >>> > other states. Even on per month per capita income of Muslims is more >>> than >>> > the Hindus of Gujarat in rural areas. For Muslims it stands at Rs 668 >>> > compared to Rs 644 for Hindus (SCs Rs 527 and OBCs Rs 594). This is >>> much >>> > higher than many other states for example Andhra Pradesh (Rs 610); West >>> > Bengal (Rs 501); UP (Rs 509); Karnataka (Rs 532); MP (Rs 475) . The per >>> > capita income of Muslims in urban areas is also higher than the >>> national >>> > average and many other states. (see Sachar report). The prosperity of >>> > Muslims in Gujarat when compared with other states is reflected in >>> terms of >>> > the bank account wise average deposit. For instance Gujarat it is Rs >>> 32,932 >>> > compared to West Bengal Rs 13, 824, Assam Rs 26,319 to cite a few >>> examples. >>> > >>> > If you take the employment of Muslims in critical departments of >>> government >>> > such as home department, state transport dept and even in public >>> sectors >>> > the >>> > percentage of Muslims occupying high posts is higher in Gujarat when >>> > compared with other States. Just to cite an example in Gujarat where >>> the >>> > percentage of Muslims is 9.1 the proportion of Muslims in high posts is >>> 8.5 >>> > per cent whereas in West Bengal where the Muslim population is 25.2 per >>> > cent >>> > the proportion of Muslims is merely 1.2 per cent. >>> > >>> > To discuss on each and every parameter to establish that Muslims fare >>> far >>> > better in Gujarat is neither required nor possible to enumerate in a >>> > letter. >>> > Your editorial mentions that Modi should be open to verification of his >>> > claims of inclusive development. The above mentioned facts clearly >>> > demonstrate that better governance in Gujarat has been translated into >>> a >>> > better life for all the people in Gujarat, including the minorities. >>> Your >>> > editorial recommends open verification of the claims. The high-powered >>> > committee appointed by the Prime Minister has to a great extent not >>> only >>> > verified the claims but also clearly established that these claims are >>> > true. >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > _________________________________________ >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> > Critiques & Collaborations >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> > subscribe in the subject header. >>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >> >> > From c.anupam at gmail.com Wed May 26 17:52:15 2010 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 17:52:15 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] NO CAVILING AT GUJARAT'S HARD FACTS In-Reply-To: References: <001a01cafcba$47ab3680$d701a380$@in> Message-ID: Pawan, your intervention here is unneccesary. i think you have option of continuing this discussion anyway. doesnt it infuriate you that people in this country are out to kill each other for piece of stone? anupam On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 5:26 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Anupam, > > It seems you re always angry ....Never knew that > a query would infuriate you so much. > > In recent case a Hindu marriage procession was not allowed to pass a road > where a mosque also existed. > > What else do you need to know Mr Anupam C > > pawan > > > On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 5:14 PM, anupam chakravartty wrote: > >> Pawan, >> >> An idol was desecrated just like temples were brought down in Gandhinagar >> and Mazars was razed in Karjan in Vadodara district, graves razed in Dahod, >> just like a Swami murdered in Vadtal at the swaminarayan temple. actually >> you know what, the God in that idol was killed long ago by their own >> believers. Didnt you know that Pawan? Pity that you are so blissfully >> unaware about it and feign some kind of innocence in initiating a discussion >> on communal rioting in Shahpur. That riots have become institutionalized in >> Gujarat and people place bets on them is a known fact as demonstrated by the >> arrest of Vadodara bookie, Arvind Valand last year where he confessed. for >> all you know, your discussion about this particular might be bringing more >> cash for the bookies. >> >> Instead you could address some of the questions i have put up for Bipin. >> >> anupam >> >> On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 4:56 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: >> >>> Any idea of recent communal riot in Shahpur , Ahmedabad....I dont see >>> anyone discussing that. >>> >>> pawan >>> >>> >>> On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 4:43 PM, anupam chakravartty >> > wrote: >>> >>>> Bipin, >>>> >>>> I have a few questions for you: When was the Sachar committee report >>>> filed? >>>> Was there any such committee before Sachar to assess the condition of >>>> one >>>> particular community as mentioned in your post? Do you think a >>>> comparative >>>> analysis is required in ascertaining the conditions prevalent in the >>>> community now and then? >>>> >>>> thanks anupam >>>> >>>> On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 3:30 PM, Bipin Trivedi >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> > To an editorial published in the Indian Express on May 22 titled " >>>> > Hard >>>> facts >>>> > to >>>> > face" the Gujarat Government had sent a letter in response stating the >>>> > factual position regarding the status of Muslim in Gujarat. >>>> > A part of the >>>> > letter >>>> > was published in the Indian Express dated May 26, 2010. The complete >>>> > version >>>> > of the letter that was sent to the Editor Indian Express is enclosed >>>> > herewith so that you will be conversant with the real hard facts. >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > Refer link: >>>> http://www.indianexpress.com/news/hard-facts-to-face/622193/0 >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > No caviling at Gujarat's hard facts >>>> > >>>> > How do Muslims fare in Gujarat? They fare much better compared to >>>> other >>>> > states. The objective study by the Prime Minister's high-level >>>> committee >>>> > headed by Justice Rajendra Sachar, appointed by Prime Minister Dr >>>> Manmohan >>>> > Singh in 2006, indicates that Muslims in Gujarat perform and fare much >>>> > better when compared with other states in several key indicators such >>>> as >>>> > education, employment, income and access to critical infrastructure. >>>> The >>>> > editorial in the Indian Express dated May 22, 2010 is mostly based on >>>> > perceptions and anecdotal evidences rather than hard facts. However >>>> the >>>> > facts below speak for themselves. >>>> > >>>> > In trying to make out a case for Muslim children being given a raw >>>> deal in >>>> > primary and upper primary school enrolment facts that has placed >>>> Muslims in >>>> > Gujarat on the top of literacy ladder have been totally ignored. >>>> According >>>> > to Sachar committee report the percentage of literacy of Muslims in >>>> Gujarat >>>> > is 73.5 per cent, the highest in India. It is pertinent to note that >>>> this >>>> > is >>>> > much higher than that of national average of 59.1 per cent and also >>>> the >>>> > percentage of literacy of Hindus in Gujarat which is 68.3 per cent. >>>> Even >>>> > Muslim women in urban areas of Gujarat have average literacy rate 5 >>>> points >>>> > higher than the national average and rural Muslim women are far much >>>> better >>>> > with their literacy rate of 57 per cent as compared to the national >>>> average >>>> > of 43 per cent. If Muslim children are not provided education how can >>>> > Muslims in Gujarat attain the highest literacy rate in the country? >>>> > >>>> > During 2009-10 the enrolment of Muslim children has been 6.45 per cent >>>> (as >>>> > against 4.7 per cent reported). It should be kept mind that this >>>> percentage >>>> > excludes the enrolment in Madarsas and also some of the private >>>> schools >>>> > which do not provide segregated data. The very fact that Muslims in >>>> Gujarat >>>> > have the highest literacy rate in the country proves that they have >>>> access >>>> > to education much better than in other states. If you look at Muslim >>>> > education attainment those who have passed the primary stage are 74.9 >>>> per >>>> > cent way ahead of the national average 60.9 per cent. In the category >>>> of >>>> > those who passed secondary education Gujarat at 45.3 is ahead of the >>>> > national average of 40.5 per cent. Even in the category of those who >>>> have >>>> > passed higher secondary level Gujarat with 26.1 per cent is ahead of >>>> the >>>> > national average of 23.9 per cent. In the average years of secondary >>>> > schooling provided between the age group of 7-16 once again Gujarat >>>> with >>>> > 4.29 per cent is ahead of the nationa Your reference to Juhapura area >>>> of >>>> > Ahmedabad lacking schools due to "gradual disentitlement and >>>> ghettoisation >>>> > of Gujarat's Muslims" is specious to the say the least as the facts >>>> prove >>>> > otherwise. There are eight high schools out of which three are >>>> > government-aided schools. In Juhapura and surrounding areas there are >>>> 13 >>>> > municipal primary schools funded by the state government and also 15 >>>> > private >>>> > schools. Far from being ghettoized there is ample opportunity for the >>>> > Muslim >>>> > children to enroll themselves. >>>> > >>>> > Secondly it has become a knee-jerk habit of secularists to pooh-pooh >>>> the >>>> > good governance of the state of Gujarat. And as to your question if >>>> "his >>>> > fabled governance genius translate into a better life for those his >>>> > politics >>>> > rejects?" the answer is clearly in the Sachar report which has called >>>> the >>>> > bluff of those who have tried to besmirch Gujarat. >>>> > >>>> > In the very social sectors which your editorial cites as the indicator >>>> of >>>> > percolation of development to the minorities, Sachar Committee report >>>> > reveals the performance of Gujarat is far better than many other >>>> states. >>>> > The >>>> > document also reveals Gujarat is far ahead in terms of providing >>>> education >>>> > facilities and health facilities. If we take the case availability of >>>> > schools in villages where there is Muslim population Gujarat is far >>>> ahead >>>> > of >>>> > the national average. In the category of villages with population of >>>> > Muslims >>>> > more than 2000 all the villages have education facility as against >>>> 98.7 per >>>> > cent national average. In the category of 1000 to 2000 population, >>>> 99.9 per >>>> > cent villages have education facilities as against the national >>>> average of >>>> > 95.4 per cent. In the category of less than 1000 population 98.6 per >>>> cent >>>> > of >>>> > the villages have education facility as against the national average >>>> of >>>> > 80.4 >>>> > per cent. >>>> > >>>> > When we consider the availability of medical facilities in villages, >>>> where >>>> > Muslim population is more 2000, 89.9 per cent of the villages have >>>> medical >>>> > facilities as against the national average of 70.7 per cent. In the >>>> > category >>>> > of 1000-2000 population, 66.67 per cent of villages have medical >>>> facilities >>>> > against the national average of 43.5 per cent. In the category of >>>> villages >>>> > less than 1000 population, 53 per cent of the villages have medical >>>> > facilities as against the national average of 20.2 per cent. >>>> > >>>> > Even in the case of other indicators such as road connectivity, >>>> > availability >>>> > of pucca approach road etc Gujarat is far ahead of national average >>>> and >>>> > many >>>> > other states. Even on per month per capita income of Muslims is more >>>> than >>>> > the Hindus of Gujarat in rural areas. For Muslims it stands at Rs 668 >>>> > compared to Rs 644 for Hindus (SCs Rs 527 and OBCs Rs 594). This is >>>> much >>>> > higher than many other states for example Andhra Pradesh (Rs 610); >>>> West >>>> > Bengal (Rs 501); UP (Rs 509); Karnataka (Rs 532); MP (Rs 475) . The >>>> per >>>> > capita income of Muslims in urban areas is also higher than the >>>> national >>>> > average and many other states. (see Sachar report). The prosperity of >>>> > Muslims in Gujarat when compared with other states is reflected in >>>> terms of >>>> > the bank account wise average deposit. For instance Gujarat it is Rs >>>> 32,932 >>>> > compared to West Bengal Rs 13, 824, Assam Rs 26,319 to cite a few >>>> examples. >>>> > >>>> > If you take the employment of Muslims in critical departments of >>>> government >>>> > such as home department, state transport dept and even in public >>>> sectors >>>> > the >>>> > percentage of Muslims occupying high posts is higher in Gujarat when >>>> > compared with other States. Just to cite an example in Gujarat where >>>> the >>>> > percentage of Muslims is 9.1 the proportion of Muslims in high posts >>>> is 8.5 >>>> > per cent whereas in West Bengal where the Muslim population is 25.2 >>>> per >>>> > cent >>>> > the proportion of Muslims is merely 1.2 per cent. >>>> > >>>> > To discuss on each and every parameter to establish that Muslims fare >>>> far >>>> > better in Gujarat is neither required nor possible to enumerate in a >>>> > letter. >>>> > Your editorial mentions that Modi should be open to verification of >>>> his >>>> > claims of inclusive development. The above mentioned facts clearly >>>> > demonstrate that better governance in Gujarat has been translated into >>>> a >>>> > better life for all the people in Gujarat, including the minorities. >>>> Your >>>> > editorial recommends open verification of the claims. The high-powered >>>> > committee appointed by the Prime Minister has to a great extent not >>>> only >>>> > verified the claims but also clearly established that these claims are >>>> > true. >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > _________________________________________ >>>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> > Critiques & Collaborations >>>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> > subscribe in the subject header. >>>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> >>> >>> >> > From kiccovich at yahoo.com Wed May 26 18:02:28 2010 From: kiccovich at yahoo.com (francesca recchia) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 05:32:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Archive and Access - invitation to contribute In-Reply-To: References: <2C1F0E483039ED4CBE03BCC574063592014E619A@exchange-be3.lancs.local> Message-ID: <327074.92478.qm@web113210.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hello there Just receive this, it seems an interesting idea and thought of forwarding it. :) francesca francesca recchia kiccovich at yahoo.com it +39 338 166 3648 iq +964 (0) 750 7085 681 http://www.veleno.tv/bollettini/ Dear Colleagues, There is little public information about the holdings and collections of libraries and archives in India, particularly those that are not large or prominent enough to appear in existing databases. The Archive and Access project invites you to contribute information about these institutions and help to build a public, easily accessible database. For more details, please look at: http://publicarchives.org/directory-of-archive-and-libraries.html The Archive and Access project aims to set up a consortium of libraries and archives with a online joint catalogue; to build an online directory of significant archival collections in India; and to make available full text selections contributed by historians. It also tries to facilitate public discussions about archival practices and policies and to develop ideas about ownership and use. Rochelle Pinto Aparna Balachandran Abhijit Bhattacharya *** From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed May 26 18:05:18 2010 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 18:05:18 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] NO CAVILING AT GUJARAT'S HARD FACTS In-Reply-To: References: <001a01cafcba$47ab3680$d701a380$@in> Message-ID: Dear Anupam , If you are an atheist , I would respect your decision for being that. However I would request you to respect others faith as well. A stone for you may be a representation of God for many. Please restrict your views on faith and oblige. Pawan On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 5:52 PM, anupam chakravartty wrote: > Pawan, > > your intervention here is unneccesary. i think you have option of > continuing this discussion anyway. doesnt it infuriate you that people in > this country are out to kill each other for piece of stone? > > anupam > > > > On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 5:26 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > >> Anupam, >> >> It seems you re always angry ....Never knew that >> a query would infuriate you so much. >> >> In recent case a Hindu marriage procession was not allowed to pass a road >> where a mosque also existed. >> >> What else do you need to know Mr Anupam C >> >> pawan >> >> >> On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 5:14 PM, anupam chakravartty wrote: >> >>> Pawan, >>> >>> An idol was desecrated just like temples were brought down in Gandhinagar >>> and Mazars was razed in Karjan in Vadodara district, graves razed in Dahod, >>> just like a Swami murdered in Vadtal at the swaminarayan temple. actually >>> you know what, the God in that idol was killed long ago by their own >>> believers. Didnt you know that Pawan? Pity that you are so blissfully >>> unaware about it and feign some kind of innocence in initiating a discussion >>> on communal rioting in Shahpur. That riots have become institutionalized in >>> Gujarat and people place bets on them is a known fact as demonstrated by the >>> arrest of Vadodara bookie, Arvind Valand last year where he confessed. for >>> all you know, your discussion about this particular might be bringing more >>> cash for the bookies. >>> >>> Instead you could address some of the questions i have put up for Bipin. >>> >>> anupam >>> >>> On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 4:56 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: >>> >>>> Any idea of recent communal riot in Shahpur , Ahmedabad....I dont see >>>> anyone discussing that. >>>> >>>> pawan >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 4:43 PM, anupam chakravartty < >>>> c.anupam at gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Bipin, >>>>> >>>>> I have a few questions for you: When was the Sachar committee report >>>>> filed? >>>>> Was there any such committee before Sachar to assess the condition of >>>>> one >>>>> particular community as mentioned in your post? Do you think a >>>>> comparative >>>>> analysis is required in ascertaining the conditions prevalent in the >>>>> community now and then? >>>>> >>>>> thanks anupam >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 3:30 PM, Bipin Trivedi >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> > To an editorial published in the Indian Express on May 22 titled " >>>>> > Hard >>>>> facts >>>>> > to >>>>> > face" the Gujarat Government had sent a letter in response stating >>>>> the >>>>> > factual position regarding the status of Muslim in Gujarat. >>>>> > A part of >>>>> the >>>>> > letter >>>>> > was published in the Indian Express dated May 26, 2010. The complete >>>>> > version >>>>> > of the letter that was sent to the Editor Indian Express is enclosed >>>>> > herewith so that you will be conversant with the real hard facts. >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > Refer link: >>>>> http://www.indianexpress.com/news/hard-facts-to-face/622193/0 >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > No caviling at Gujarat's hard facts >>>>> > >>>>> > How do Muslims fare in Gujarat? They fare much better compared to >>>>> other >>>>> > states. The objective study by the Prime Minister's high-level >>>>> committee >>>>> > headed by Justice Rajendra Sachar, appointed by Prime Minister Dr >>>>> Manmohan >>>>> > Singh in 2006, indicates that Muslims in Gujarat perform and fare >>>>> much >>>>> > better when compared with other states in several key indicators such >>>>> as >>>>> > education, employment, income and access to critical infrastructure. >>>>> The >>>>> > editorial in the Indian Express dated May 22, 2010 is mostly based on >>>>> > perceptions and anecdotal evidences rather than hard facts. However >>>>> the >>>>> > facts below speak for themselves. >>>>> > >>>>> > In trying to make out a case for Muslim children being given a raw >>>>> deal in >>>>> > primary and upper primary school enrolment facts that has placed >>>>> Muslims in >>>>> > Gujarat on the top of literacy ladder have been totally ignored. >>>>> According >>>>> > to Sachar committee report the percentage of literacy of Muslims in >>>>> Gujarat >>>>> > is 73.5 per cent, the highest in India. It is pertinent to note that >>>>> this >>>>> > is >>>>> > much higher than that of national average of 59.1 per cent and also >>>>> the >>>>> > percentage of literacy of Hindus in Gujarat which is 68.3 per cent. >>>>> Even >>>>> > Muslim women in urban areas of Gujarat have average literacy rate 5 >>>>> points >>>>> > higher than the national average and rural Muslim women are far much >>>>> better >>>>> > with their literacy rate of 57 per cent as compared to the national >>>>> average >>>>> > of 43 per cent. If Muslim children are not provided education how can >>>>> > Muslims in Gujarat attain the highest literacy rate in the country? >>>>> > >>>>> > During 2009-10 the enrolment of Muslim children has been 6.45 per >>>>> cent (as >>>>> > against 4.7 per cent reported). It should be kept mind that this >>>>> percentage >>>>> > excludes the enrolment in Madarsas and also some of the private >>>>> schools >>>>> > which do not provide segregated data. The very fact that Muslims in >>>>> Gujarat >>>>> > have the highest literacy rate in the country proves that they have >>>>> access >>>>> > to education much better than in other states. If you look at Muslim >>>>> > education attainment those who have passed the primary stage are 74.9 >>>>> per >>>>> > cent way ahead of the national average 60.9 per cent. In the category >>>>> of >>>>> > those who passed secondary education Gujarat at 45.3 is ahead of the >>>>> > national average of 40.5 per cent. Even in the category of those who >>>>> have >>>>> > passed higher secondary level Gujarat with 26.1 per cent is ahead of >>>>> the >>>>> > national average of 23.9 per cent. In the average years of secondary >>>>> > schooling provided between the age group of 7-16 once again Gujarat >>>>> with >>>>> > 4.29 per cent is ahead of the nationa Your reference to Juhapura area >>>>> of >>>>> > Ahmedabad lacking schools due to "gradual disentitlement and >>>>> ghettoisation >>>>> > of Gujarat's Muslims" is specious to the say the least as the facts >>>>> prove >>>>> > otherwise. There are eight high schools out of which three are >>>>> > government-aided schools. In Juhapura and surrounding areas there are >>>>> 13 >>>>> > municipal primary schools funded by the state government and also 15 >>>>> > private >>>>> > schools. Far from being ghettoized there is ample opportunity for the >>>>> > Muslim >>>>> > children to enroll themselves. >>>>> > >>>>> > Secondly it has become a knee-jerk habit of secularists to pooh-pooh >>>>> the >>>>> > good governance of the state of Gujarat. And as to your question if >>>>> "his >>>>> > fabled governance genius translate into a better life for those his >>>>> > politics >>>>> > rejects?" the answer is clearly in the Sachar report which has called >>>>> the >>>>> > bluff of those who have tried to besmirch Gujarat. >>>>> > >>>>> > In the very social sectors which your editorial cites as the >>>>> indicator of >>>>> > percolation of development to the minorities, Sachar Committee report >>>>> > reveals the performance of Gujarat is far better than many other >>>>> states. >>>>> > The >>>>> > document also reveals Gujarat is far ahead in terms of providing >>>>> education >>>>> > facilities and health facilities. If we take the case availability of >>>>> > schools in villages where there is Muslim population Gujarat is far >>>>> ahead >>>>> > of >>>>> > the national average. In the category of villages with population of >>>>> > Muslims >>>>> > more than 2000 all the villages have education facility as against >>>>> 98.7 per >>>>> > cent national average. In the category of 1000 to 2000 population, >>>>> 99.9 per >>>>> > cent villages have education facilities as against the national >>>>> average of >>>>> > 95.4 per cent. In the category of less than 1000 population 98.6 per >>>>> cent >>>>> > of >>>>> > the villages have education facility as against the national average >>>>> of >>>>> > 80.4 >>>>> > per cent. >>>>> > >>>>> > When we consider the availability of medical facilities in villages, >>>>> where >>>>> > Muslim population is more 2000, 89.9 per cent of the villages have >>>>> medical >>>>> > facilities as against the national average of 70.7 per cent. In the >>>>> > category >>>>> > of 1000-2000 population, 66.67 per cent of villages have medical >>>>> facilities >>>>> > against the national average of 43.5 per cent. In the category of >>>>> villages >>>>> > less than 1000 population, 53 per cent of the villages have medical >>>>> > facilities as against the national average of 20.2 per cent. >>>>> > >>>>> > Even in the case of other indicators such as road connectivity, >>>>> > availability >>>>> > of pucca approach road etc Gujarat is far ahead of national average >>>>> and >>>>> > many >>>>> > other states. Even on per month per capita income of Muslims is more >>>>> than >>>>> > the Hindus of Gujarat in rural areas. For Muslims it stands at Rs 668 >>>>> > compared to Rs 644 for Hindus (SCs Rs 527 and OBCs Rs 594). This is >>>>> much >>>>> > higher than many other states for example Andhra Pradesh (Rs 610); >>>>> West >>>>> > Bengal (Rs 501); UP (Rs 509); Karnataka (Rs 532); MP (Rs 475) . The >>>>> per >>>>> > capita income of Muslims in urban areas is also higher than the >>>>> national >>>>> > average and many other states. (see Sachar report). The prosperity of >>>>> > Muslims in Gujarat when compared with other states is reflected in >>>>> terms of >>>>> > the bank account wise average deposit. For instance Gujarat it is Rs >>>>> 32,932 >>>>> > compared to West Bengal Rs 13, 824, Assam Rs 26,319 to cite a few >>>>> examples. >>>>> > >>>>> > If you take the employment of Muslims in critical departments of >>>>> government >>>>> > such as home department, state transport dept and even in public >>>>> sectors >>>>> > the >>>>> > percentage of Muslims occupying high posts is higher in Gujarat when >>>>> > compared with other States. Just to cite an example in Gujarat where >>>>> the >>>>> > percentage of Muslims is 9.1 the proportion of Muslims in high posts >>>>> is 8.5 >>>>> > per cent whereas in West Bengal where the Muslim population is 25.2 >>>>> per >>>>> > cent >>>>> > the proportion of Muslims is merely 1.2 per cent. >>>>> > >>>>> > To discuss on each and every parameter to establish that Muslims fare >>>>> far >>>>> > better in Gujarat is neither required nor possible to enumerate in a >>>>> > letter. >>>>> > Your editorial mentions that Modi should be open to verification of >>>>> his >>>>> > claims of inclusive development. The above mentioned facts clearly >>>>> > demonstrate that better governance in Gujarat has been translated >>>>> into a >>>>> > better life for all the people in Gujarat, including the minorities. >>>>> Your >>>>> > editorial recommends open verification of the claims. The >>>>> high-powered >>>>> > committee appointed by the Prime Minister has to a great extent not >>>>> only >>>>> > verified the claims but also clearly established that these claims >>>>> are >>>>> > true. >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > _________________________________________ >>>>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>> > Critiques & Collaborations >>>>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>> > subscribe in the subject header. >>>>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> > From c.anupam at gmail.com Wed May 26 18:15:01 2010 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 18:15:01 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] NO CAVILING AT GUJARAT'S HARD FACTS In-Reply-To: References: <001a01cafcba$47ab3680$d701a380$@in> Message-ID: Pawan, one doesnt need to be believer or non-believer to admonish an act of crime in the name of whichever religion. I think i have not hurt anyone by any means when i say that an idol is a piece of stone. if you have problem, you can take this discussion to somewhere else where your views are endorsed. not here! Please reply to the questions being posed Pawan. You are aimlessly arguing here. If Bipin doesnt have answers, the questions are open to all. Tell me if you need a comparative analysis of data for a period of time, about one particular community to ascertain whether it is doing well or not for Gujarat? that's all i asked. On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 6:05 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Dear Anupam , > > If you are an atheist , I would respect your decision for being that. > However I would request you to respect others faith as well. > > A stone for you may be a representation of God for many. > > Please restrict your views on faith and oblige. > > Pawan > > > On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 5:52 PM, anupam chakravartty wrote: > >> Pawan, >> >> your intervention here is unneccesary. i think you have option of >> continuing this discussion anyway. doesnt it infuriate you that people in >> this country are out to kill each other for piece of stone? >> >> anupam >> >> >> >> On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 5:26 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: >> >>> Anupam, >>> >>> It seems you re always angry ....Never knew that >>> a query would infuriate you so much. >>> >>> In recent case a Hindu marriage procession was not allowed to pass a road >>> where a mosque also existed. >>> >>> What else do you need to know Mr Anupam C >>> >>> pawan >>> >>> >>> On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 5:14 PM, anupam chakravartty >> > wrote: >>> >>>> Pawan, >>>> >>>> An idol was desecrated just like temples were brought down in >>>> Gandhinagar and Mazars was razed in Karjan in Vadodara district, graves >>>> razed in Dahod, just like a Swami murdered in Vadtal at the swaminarayan >>>> temple. actually you know what, the God in that idol was killed long ago by >>>> their own believers. Didnt you know that Pawan? Pity that you are so >>>> blissfully unaware about it and feign some kind of innocence in initiating a >>>> discussion on communal rioting in Shahpur. That riots have become >>>> institutionalized in Gujarat and people place bets on them is a known fact >>>> as demonstrated by the arrest of Vadodara bookie, Arvind Valand last year >>>> where he confessed. for all you know, your discussion about this particular >>>> might be bringing more cash for the bookies. >>>> >>>> Instead you could address some of the questions i have put up for Bipin. >>>> >>>> >>>> anupam >>>> >>>> On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 4:56 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: >>>> >>>>> Any idea of recent communal riot in Shahpur , Ahmedabad....I dont see >>>>> anyone discussing that. >>>>> >>>>> pawan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 4:43 PM, anupam chakravartty < >>>>> c.anupam at gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Bipin, >>>>>> >>>>>> I have a few questions for you: When was the Sachar committee report >>>>>> filed? >>>>>> Was there any such committee before Sachar to assess the condition of >>>>>> one >>>>>> particular community as mentioned in your post? Do you think a >>>>>> comparative >>>>>> analysis is required in ascertaining the conditions prevalent in the >>>>>> community now and then? >>>>>> >>>>>> thanks anupam >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 3:30 PM, Bipin Trivedi >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> > To an editorial published in the Indian Express on May 22 titled " >>>>>> > Hard >>>>>> facts >>>>>> > to >>>>>> > face" the Gujarat Government had sent a letter in response stating >>>>>> the >>>>>> > factual position regarding the status of Muslim in Gujarat. >>>>>> > A part of >>>>>> the >>>>>> > letter >>>>>> > was published in the Indian Express dated May 26, 2010. The complete >>>>>> > version >>>>>> > of the letter that was sent to the Editor Indian Express is enclosed >>>>>> > herewith so that you will be conversant with the real hard facts. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Refer link: >>>>>> http://www.indianexpress.com/news/hard-facts-to-face/622193/0 >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > No caviling at Gujarat's hard facts >>>>>> > >>>>>> > How do Muslims fare in Gujarat? They fare much better compared to >>>>>> other >>>>>> > states. The objective study by the Prime Minister's high-level >>>>>> committee >>>>>> > headed by Justice Rajendra Sachar, appointed by Prime Minister Dr >>>>>> Manmohan >>>>>> > Singh in 2006, indicates that Muslims in Gujarat perform and fare >>>>>> much >>>>>> > better when compared with other states in several key indicators >>>>>> such as >>>>>> > education, employment, income and access to critical infrastructure. >>>>>> The >>>>>> > editorial in the Indian Express dated May 22, 2010 is mostly based >>>>>> on >>>>>> > perceptions and anecdotal evidences rather than hard facts. However >>>>>> the >>>>>> > facts below speak for themselves. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > In trying to make out a case for Muslim children being given a raw >>>>>> deal in >>>>>> > primary and upper primary school enrolment facts that has placed >>>>>> Muslims in >>>>>> > Gujarat on the top of literacy ladder have been totally ignored. >>>>>> According >>>>>> > to Sachar committee report the percentage of literacy of Muslims in >>>>>> Gujarat >>>>>> > is 73.5 per cent, the highest in India. It is pertinent to note that >>>>>> this >>>>>> > is >>>>>> > much higher than that of national average of 59.1 per cent and also >>>>>> the >>>>>> > percentage of literacy of Hindus in Gujarat which is 68.3 per cent. >>>>>> Even >>>>>> > Muslim women in urban areas of Gujarat have average literacy rate 5 >>>>>> points >>>>>> > higher than the national average and rural Muslim women are far much >>>>>> better >>>>>> > with their literacy rate of 57 per cent as compared to the national >>>>>> average >>>>>> > of 43 per cent. If Muslim children are not provided education how >>>>>> can >>>>>> > Muslims in Gujarat attain the highest literacy rate in the country? >>>>>> > >>>>>> > During 2009-10 the enrolment of Muslim children has been 6.45 per >>>>>> cent (as >>>>>> > against 4.7 per cent reported). It should be kept mind that this >>>>>> percentage >>>>>> > excludes the enrolment in Madarsas and also some of the private >>>>>> schools >>>>>> > which do not provide segregated data. The very fact that Muslims in >>>>>> Gujarat >>>>>> > have the highest literacy rate in the country proves that they have >>>>>> access >>>>>> > to education much better than in other states. If you look at Muslim >>>>>> > education attainment those who have passed the primary stage are >>>>>> 74.9 per >>>>>> > cent way ahead of the national average 60.9 per cent. In the >>>>>> category of >>>>>> > those who passed secondary education Gujarat at 45.3 is ahead of the >>>>>> > national average of 40.5 per cent. Even in the category of those who >>>>>> have >>>>>> > passed higher secondary level Gujarat with 26.1 per cent is ahead of >>>>>> the >>>>>> > national average of 23.9 per cent. In the average years of secondary >>>>>> > schooling provided between the age group of 7-16 once again Gujarat >>>>>> with >>>>>> > 4.29 per cent is ahead of the nationa Your reference to Juhapura >>>>>> area of >>>>>> > Ahmedabad lacking schools due to "gradual disentitlement and >>>>>> ghettoisation >>>>>> > of Gujarat's Muslims" is specious to the say the least as the facts >>>>>> prove >>>>>> > otherwise. There are eight high schools out of which three are >>>>>> > government-aided schools. In Juhapura and surrounding areas there >>>>>> are 13 >>>>>> > municipal primary schools funded by the state government and also 15 >>>>>> > private >>>>>> > schools. Far from being ghettoized there is ample opportunity for >>>>>> the >>>>>> > Muslim >>>>>> > children to enroll themselves. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Secondly it has become a knee-jerk habit of secularists to pooh-pooh >>>>>> the >>>>>> > good governance of the state of Gujarat. And as to your question if >>>>>> "his >>>>>> > fabled governance genius translate into a better life for those his >>>>>> > politics >>>>>> > rejects?" the answer is clearly in the Sachar report which has >>>>>> called the >>>>>> > bluff of those who have tried to besmirch Gujarat. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > In the very social sectors which your editorial cites as the >>>>>> indicator of >>>>>> > percolation of development to the minorities, Sachar Committee >>>>>> report >>>>>> > reveals the performance of Gujarat is far better than many other >>>>>> states. >>>>>> > The >>>>>> > document also reveals Gujarat is far ahead in terms of providing >>>>>> education >>>>>> > facilities and health facilities. If we take the case availability >>>>>> of >>>>>> > schools in villages where there is Muslim population Gujarat is far >>>>>> ahead >>>>>> > of >>>>>> > the national average. In the category of villages with population of >>>>>> > Muslims >>>>>> > more than 2000 all the villages have education facility as against >>>>>> 98.7 per >>>>>> > cent national average. In the category of 1000 to 2000 population, >>>>>> 99.9 per >>>>>> > cent villages have education facilities as against the national >>>>>> average of >>>>>> > 95.4 per cent. In the category of less than 1000 population 98.6 per >>>>>> cent >>>>>> > of >>>>>> > the villages have education facility as against the national average >>>>>> of >>>>>> > 80.4 >>>>>> > per cent. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > When we consider the availability of medical facilities in villages, >>>>>> where >>>>>> > Muslim population is more 2000, 89.9 per cent of the villages have >>>>>> medical >>>>>> > facilities as against the national average of 70.7 per cent. In the >>>>>> > category >>>>>> > of 1000-2000 population, 66.67 per cent of villages have medical >>>>>> facilities >>>>>> > against the national average of 43.5 per cent. In the category of >>>>>> villages >>>>>> > less than 1000 population, 53 per cent of the villages have medical >>>>>> > facilities as against the national average of 20.2 per cent. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Even in the case of other indicators such as road connectivity, >>>>>> > availability >>>>>> > of pucca approach road etc Gujarat is far ahead of national average >>>>>> and >>>>>> > many >>>>>> > other states. Even on per month per capita income of Muslims is more >>>>>> than >>>>>> > the Hindus of Gujarat in rural areas. For Muslims it stands at Rs >>>>>> 668 >>>>>> > compared to Rs 644 for Hindus (SCs Rs 527 and OBCs Rs 594). This is >>>>>> much >>>>>> > higher than many other states for example Andhra Pradesh (Rs 610); >>>>>> West >>>>>> > Bengal (Rs 501); UP (Rs 509); Karnataka (Rs 532); MP (Rs 475) . The >>>>>> per >>>>>> > capita income of Muslims in urban areas is also higher than the >>>>>> national >>>>>> > average and many other states. (see Sachar report). The prosperity >>>>>> of >>>>>> > Muslims in Gujarat when compared with other states is reflected in >>>>>> terms of >>>>>> > the bank account wise average deposit. For instance Gujarat it is Rs >>>>>> 32,932 >>>>>> > compared to West Bengal Rs 13, 824, Assam Rs 26,319 to cite a few >>>>>> examples. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > If you take the employment of Muslims in critical departments of >>>>>> government >>>>>> > such as home department, state transport dept and even in public >>>>>> sectors >>>>>> > the >>>>>> > percentage of Muslims occupying high posts is higher in Gujarat when >>>>>> > compared with other States. Just to cite an example in Gujarat where >>>>>> the >>>>>> > percentage of Muslims is 9.1 the proportion of Muslims in high posts >>>>>> is 8.5 >>>>>> > per cent whereas in West Bengal where the Muslim population is 25.2 >>>>>> per >>>>>> > cent >>>>>> > the proportion of Muslims is merely 1.2 per cent. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > To discuss on each and every parameter to establish that Muslims >>>>>> fare far >>>>>> > better in Gujarat is neither required nor possible to enumerate in a >>>>>> > letter. >>>>>> > Your editorial mentions that Modi should be open to verification of >>>>>> his >>>>>> > claims of inclusive development. The above mentioned facts clearly >>>>>> > demonstrate that better governance in Gujarat has been translated >>>>>> into a >>>>>> > better life for all the people in Gujarat, including the minorities. >>>>>> Your >>>>>> > editorial recommends open verification of the claims. The >>>>>> high-powered >>>>>> > committee appointed by the Prime Minister has to a great extent not >>>>>> only >>>>>> > verified the claims but also clearly established that these claims >>>>>> are >>>>>> > true. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > _________________________________________ >>>>>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>>> > Critiques & Collaborations >>>>>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>>> > subscribe in the subject header. >>>>>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> > From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Wed May 26 19:00:25 2010 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 14:30:25 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] On my view of Nandan Nilekani Message-ID: Dear Bipin, Thank you for your mail. I find that you seem to be pained by my constant reference to Mr.Nandan Nilekani. Please allow me put my views about Mr. Nandan Nilekani on record. As a person who has achieved much in his life, I have nothing else but deepest respect for him. Mr. Nilekani is a product of India’s foremost technology institute. In 1978 he passed out from IIT and started his professional life. His first job was with Patni Computers. He was given a salary of 1200 Rupees a month. Today his net worth is one thousand and three hundred million dollars. The journey which he has undertaken in a short span of thirty two years is simply remarkable. We all know how he got in touch with Mr. Narayan Murthy and what happened after that. So I wouldn’t bore you that story. As far as my view of Mr. Nandan Nilekani as a businessman is concerned, I think he is a sharp, smart and a very successful man. I would also like to think of him as a master craftsman. He seems to me to be a man who has over the years cultivated a desire to make wealth with zeal of a yogi. He seems to be indifferent to his wealth. He does not come across as a person who is drunk on his wealth. He practices his craft, that’s for sure. One can see marks of ‘nirantar abhyas’ (or constant practice) in his work but at the same time one cannot but admire the vairagya (indifference) that he exudes. This journey which began by accumulating 1200 Rupees a month to result in a fortune of 1.3 Billion must have been not been easy. I assume he must have faced many self doubts. He must have failed many a times. His colleagues, His near and dear ones must have expressed their anxiety to him. But he didn’t lose his focus. He kept on practicing what he had set his mind for. He wanted to make money for himself and for others. He wanted to create wealth. He did that. For thirty years he did that. I can imagine day in and day out his mind must have been plagued by questions: ‘How to make infosys work?’ ‘How to get a contract?’ ‘Who to talk to in order to get this job done?’ ‘Who to employ?’ ‘How to exploit this opportunity?’ ‘How to invest?’ ‘How to increase the return on investments?’ 'How to get around a tricky policy?' 'Who to network with to get the more opportunities?' It must have been a difficult ride. Life of a yogi is not easy. It’s a hard life. For thirty years he must have strategized with others like him to ask the right questions so that he finds the right answers. Answers which could help him create wealth. Now whenever I read Rohini Nilekani’s views on those days, I admire the zeal of Nandan to do anything which could lead to creation of wealth. Rohini, for instance, says : ‘Earlier, when the children were small, I thought the downside was that Nandan was just not around. I mean in the early days, certainly they were all so busy that personally I don’t think he had much time for us. Obviously, Infosys had to take precedence over other things.’ (http://www.moneycontrol.com/news/management/nandan-helps-me-think-logically-rohini-nilekani_283584.html ) Even Nandan acknowledges this, ‘As a father I am unable to spend much time with them’ (http://www.domain-b.com/people/profiles/20021108_meticulous.html ) On another occasion she gives a glimpse into the life Mr. Nilekani when he was sent to US to build Infosys there. ‘He was always working, "We lived out of four suitcases and went across the U.S.’ (http://www.forbes.com/global/2010/0315/philanthropy-technology-infosys-rohini-nilekani-india.html ) So you see, to me he comes across as a driven person. As a person who did not care about anything else. Did what he had to do in order to create wealth in order to live a dream that one day. One Day. Infosys can becomes a name to reckon with. To me Mr. Nandan Nilekani comes across as a brilliant method actor. He comes across as someone who as the ability and tact to get into the skin of a character to deliver an outstanding performance. For thirty years he is been acting out one role which is that of wealth creator. And I salute him for that. But at the same time I wonder how come a man who has spent his life trying to exploit opportunities to create wealth be suddenly made in charge to distribute wealth and we are supposed to applaud that? Isn’t he performing out of character? Isn’t he at a wrong stage? How can a man who has spent his life thinking about ways and means to create wealth be given a responsibility to distribute wealth. What will be his instinctive response, tell me? What will he be thinking? 1,50,000 crore rupees are at stake with this UIDAI. This money is largely going to go to IT sector. A sector which has failed to prove it’s mettle in global trade. This is a sector which made up more of ITES services rather than IT. If the GOI wants to distribute wealth then are there no better ways to do it? The life of any person who sits on a public office deserves to be thoroughly examined. It should be a matter of public interest to everyone of us. Just as Kasab is a terrorist and his place is in a penitentiary, just as Ranbir Kapoor is an actor and his place is in bollywood, then why can’t we think that the place of a creator of wealth cannot be as same as that of a distributor of wealth? So I don't know what to do here, how could I trust what Mr. Nilekani is doing is right when for all I know he may not be the right man for the post. Warm regards Taha From c.anupam at gmail.com Wed May 26 19:00:48 2010 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 19:00:48 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] NO CAVILING AT GUJARAT'S HARD FACTS In-Reply-To: References: <001a01cafcba$47ab3680$d701a380$@in> Message-ID: Pawan, Analyse your concerns for Gujarat as well when you (or Bipin) selectively pick up only some topics or issues from the state while turning a blind eye to everything else. Such is this apathy, that indigenous communities, mostly Bhils from Dahod are now being turned into puppets during the implementation of the Forest Rights Act. But you speak for Hindus, I forgot. I wonder how many Hindus really bother about Krishna's idols in Gujarat. How many actually source their energies through these idols? For some, it is getting their names engraved on the stones next to these idols by sending funds or donations. So Loving or believing or respecting one's god these days is a question of ego not of faith. (it is same as my car is longer than yours) If it was faith, such fierce defence or such assertions wouldn't have been required. One also would not require these mindless pontifications in defence of the good and the god. here the idea of god is in doubt Pawan, not your faith. it is going to remain the way it is. so it is your god ( or your ego) or may be of those who were rioting over this idol business, which needs to be rescued not everybody else. do not assume that you can speak for peoples' faith. you have no idea what it is. best anupam On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 6:15 PM, anupam chakravartty wrote: > Pawan, one doesnt need to be believer or non-believer to admonish an act of > crime in the name of whichever religion. I think i have not hurt anyone by > any means when i say that an idol is a piece of stone. if you have problem, > you can take this discussion to somewhere else where your views are > endorsed. not here! > > Please reply to the questions being posed Pawan. You are aimlessly arguing > here. If Bipin doesnt have answers, the questions are open to all. Tell me > if you need a comparative analysis of data for a period of time, about one > particular community to ascertain whether it is doing well or not for > Gujarat? that's all i asked. > > > On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 6:05 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > >> Dear Anupam , >> >> If you are an atheist , I would respect your decision for being that. >> However I would request you to respect others faith as well. >> >> A stone for you may be a representation of God for many. >> >> Please restrict your views on faith and oblige. >> >> Pawan >> >> >> On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 5:52 PM, anupam chakravartty wrote: >> >>> Pawan, >>> >>> your intervention here is unneccesary. i think you have option of >>> continuing this discussion anyway. doesnt it infuriate you that people in >>> this country are out to kill each other for piece of stone? >>> >>> anupam >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 5:26 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: >>> >>>> Anupam, >>>> >>>> It seems you re always angry ....Never knew that >>>> a query would infuriate you so much. >>>> >>>> In recent case a Hindu marriage procession was not allowed to pass a >>>> road where a mosque also existed. >>>> >>>> What else do you need to know Mr Anupam C >>>> >>>> pawan >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 5:14 PM, anupam chakravartty < >>>> c.anupam at gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Pawan, >>>>> >>>>> An idol was desecrated just like temples were brought down in >>>>> Gandhinagar and Mazars was razed in Karjan in Vadodara district, graves >>>>> razed in Dahod, just like a Swami murdered in Vadtal at the swaminarayan >>>>> temple. actually you know what, the God in that idol was killed long ago by >>>>> their own believers. Didnt you know that Pawan? Pity that you are so >>>>> blissfully unaware about it and feign some kind of innocence in initiating a >>>>> discussion on communal rioting in Shahpur. That riots have become >>>>> institutionalized in Gujarat and people place bets on them is a known fact >>>>> as demonstrated by the arrest of Vadodara bookie, Arvind Valand last year >>>>> where he confessed. for all you know, your discussion about this particular >>>>> might be bringing more cash for the bookies. >>>>> >>>>> Instead you could address some of the questions i have put up for >>>>> Bipin. >>>>> >>>>> anupam >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 4:56 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Any idea of recent communal riot in Shahpur , Ahmedabad....I dont see >>>>>> anyone discussing that. >>>>>> >>>>>> pawan >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 4:43 PM, anupam chakravartty < >>>>>> c.anupam at gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Bipin, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have a few questions for you: When was the Sachar committee report >>>>>>> filed? >>>>>>> Was there any such committee before Sachar to assess the condition of >>>>>>> one >>>>>>> particular community as mentioned in your post? Do you think a >>>>>>> comparative >>>>>>> analysis is required in ascertaining the conditions prevalent in the >>>>>>> community now and then? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> thanks anupam >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 3:30 PM, Bipin Trivedi >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > To an editorial published in the Indian Express on May 22 titled " >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Hard facts >>>>>>> > to >>>>>>> > face" the Gujarat Government had sent a letter in response stating >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> > factual position regarding the status of Muslim in Gujarat. >>>>>>> > A part of >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> > letter >>>>>>> > was published in the Indian Express dated May 26, 2010. The >>>>>>> complete >>>>>>> > version >>>>>>> > of the letter that was sent to the Editor Indian Express is >>>>>>> enclosed >>>>>>> > herewith so that you will be conversant with the real hard facts. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Refer link: >>>>>>> http://www.indianexpress.com/news/hard-facts-to-face/622193/0 >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > No caviling at Gujarat's hard facts >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > How do Muslims fare in Gujarat? They fare much better compared to >>>>>>> other >>>>>>> > states. The objective study by the Prime Minister's high-level >>>>>>> committee >>>>>>> > headed by Justice Rajendra Sachar, appointed by Prime Minister Dr >>>>>>> Manmohan >>>>>>> > Singh in 2006, indicates that Muslims in Gujarat perform and fare >>>>>>> much >>>>>>> > better when compared with other states in several key indicators >>>>>>> such as >>>>>>> > education, employment, income and access to critical >>>>>>> infrastructure. The >>>>>>> > editorial in the Indian Express dated May 22, 2010 is mostly based >>>>>>> on >>>>>>> > perceptions and anecdotal evidences rather than hard facts. However >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> > facts below speak for themselves. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > In trying to make out a case for Muslim children being given a raw >>>>>>> deal in >>>>>>> > primary and upper primary school enrolment facts that has placed >>>>>>> Muslims in >>>>>>> > Gujarat on the top of literacy ladder have been totally ignored. >>>>>>> According >>>>>>> > to Sachar committee report the percentage of literacy of Muslims in >>>>>>> Gujarat >>>>>>> > is 73.5 per cent, the highest in India. It is pertinent to note >>>>>>> that this >>>>>>> > is >>>>>>> > much higher than that of national average of 59.1 per cent and also >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> > percentage of literacy of Hindus in Gujarat which is 68.3 per cent. >>>>>>> Even >>>>>>> > Muslim women in urban areas of Gujarat have average literacy rate 5 >>>>>>> points >>>>>>> > higher than the national average and rural Muslim women are far >>>>>>> much better >>>>>>> > with their literacy rate of 57 per cent as compared to the national >>>>>>> average >>>>>>> > of 43 per cent. If Muslim children are not provided education how >>>>>>> can >>>>>>> > Muslims in Gujarat attain the highest literacy rate in the country? >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > During 2009-10 the enrolment of Muslim children has been 6.45 per >>>>>>> cent (as >>>>>>> > against 4.7 per cent reported). It should be kept mind that this >>>>>>> percentage >>>>>>> > excludes the enrolment in Madarsas and also some of the private >>>>>>> schools >>>>>>> > which do not provide segregated data. The very fact that Muslims in >>>>>>> Gujarat >>>>>>> > have the highest literacy rate in the country proves that they have >>>>>>> access >>>>>>> > to education much better than in other states. If you look at >>>>>>> Muslim >>>>>>> > education attainment those who have passed the primary stage are >>>>>>> 74.9 per >>>>>>> > cent way ahead of the national average 60.9 per cent. In the >>>>>>> category of >>>>>>> > those who passed secondary education Gujarat at 45.3 is ahead of >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> > national average of 40.5 per cent. Even in the category of those >>>>>>> who have >>>>>>> > passed higher secondary level Gujarat with 26.1 per cent is ahead >>>>>>> of the >>>>>>> > national average of 23.9 per cent. In the average years of >>>>>>> secondary >>>>>>> > schooling provided between the age group of 7-16 once again Gujarat >>>>>>> with >>>>>>> > 4.29 per cent is ahead of the nationa Your reference to Juhapura >>>>>>> area of >>>>>>> > Ahmedabad lacking schools due to "gradual disentitlement and >>>>>>> ghettoisation >>>>>>> > of Gujarat's Muslims" is specious to the say the least as the facts >>>>>>> prove >>>>>>> > otherwise. There are eight high schools out of which three are >>>>>>> > government-aided schools. In Juhapura and surrounding areas there >>>>>>> are 13 >>>>>>> > municipal primary schools funded by the state government and also >>>>>>> 15 >>>>>>> > private >>>>>>> > schools. Far from being ghettoized there is ample opportunity for >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> > Muslim >>>>>>> > children to enroll themselves. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Secondly it has become a knee-jerk habit of secularists to >>>>>>> pooh-pooh the >>>>>>> > good governance of the state of Gujarat. And as to your question if >>>>>>> "his >>>>>>> > fabled governance genius translate into a better life for those his >>>>>>> > politics >>>>>>> > rejects?" the answer is clearly in the Sachar report which has >>>>>>> called the >>>>>>> > bluff of those who have tried to besmirch Gujarat. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > In the very social sectors which your editorial cites as the >>>>>>> indicator of >>>>>>> > percolation of development to the minorities, Sachar Committee >>>>>>> report >>>>>>> > reveals the performance of Gujarat is far better than many other >>>>>>> states. >>>>>>> > The >>>>>>> > document also reveals Gujarat is far ahead in terms of providing >>>>>>> education >>>>>>> > facilities and health facilities. If we take the case availability >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> > schools in villages where there is Muslim population Gujarat is far >>>>>>> ahead >>>>>>> > of >>>>>>> > the national average. In the category of villages with population >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> > Muslims >>>>>>> > more than 2000 all the villages have education facility as against >>>>>>> 98.7 per >>>>>>> > cent national average. In the category of 1000 to 2000 population, >>>>>>> 99.9 per >>>>>>> > cent villages have education facilities as against the national >>>>>>> average of >>>>>>> > 95.4 per cent. In the category of less than 1000 population 98.6 >>>>>>> per cent >>>>>>> > of >>>>>>> > the villages have education facility as against the national >>>>>>> average of >>>>>>> > 80.4 >>>>>>> > per cent. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > When we consider the availability of medical facilities in >>>>>>> villages, where >>>>>>> > Muslim population is more 2000, 89.9 per cent of the villages have >>>>>>> medical >>>>>>> > facilities as against the national average of 70.7 per cent. In the >>>>>>> > category >>>>>>> > of 1000-2000 population, 66.67 per cent of villages have medical >>>>>>> facilities >>>>>>> > against the national average of 43.5 per cent. In the category of >>>>>>> villages >>>>>>> > less than 1000 population, 53 per cent of the villages have medical >>>>>>> > facilities as against the national average of 20.2 per cent. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Even in the case of other indicators such as road connectivity, >>>>>>> > availability >>>>>>> > of pucca approach road etc Gujarat is far ahead of national average >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> > many >>>>>>> > other states. Even on per month per capita income of Muslims is >>>>>>> more than >>>>>>> > the Hindus of Gujarat in rural areas. For Muslims it stands at Rs >>>>>>> 668 >>>>>>> > compared to Rs 644 for Hindus (SCs Rs 527 and OBCs Rs 594). This is >>>>>>> much >>>>>>> > higher than many other states for example Andhra Pradesh (Rs 610); >>>>>>> West >>>>>>> > Bengal (Rs 501); UP (Rs 509); Karnataka (Rs 532); MP (Rs 475) . The >>>>>>> per >>>>>>> > capita income of Muslims in urban areas is also higher than the >>>>>>> national >>>>>>> > average and many other states. (see Sachar report). The prosperity >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> > Muslims in Gujarat when compared with other states is reflected in >>>>>>> terms of >>>>>>> > the bank account wise average deposit. For instance Gujarat it is >>>>>>> Rs 32,932 >>>>>>> > compared to West Bengal Rs 13, 824, Assam Rs 26,319 to cite a few >>>>>>> examples. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > If you take the employment of Muslims in critical departments of >>>>>>> government >>>>>>> > such as home department, state transport dept and even in public >>>>>>> sectors >>>>>>> > the >>>>>>> > percentage of Muslims occupying high posts is higher in Gujarat >>>>>>> when >>>>>>> > compared with other States. Just to cite an example in Gujarat >>>>>>> where the >>>>>>> > percentage of Muslims is 9.1 the proportion of Muslims in high >>>>>>> posts is 8.5 >>>>>>> > per cent whereas in West Bengal where the Muslim population is 25.2 >>>>>>> per >>>>>>> > cent >>>>>>> > the proportion of Muslims is merely 1.2 per cent. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > To discuss on each and every parameter to establish that Muslims >>>>>>> fare far >>>>>>> > better in Gujarat is neither required nor possible to enumerate in >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> > letter. >>>>>>> > Your editorial mentions that Modi should be open to verification of >>>>>>> his >>>>>>> > claims of inclusive development. The above mentioned facts clearly >>>>>>> > demonstrate that better governance in Gujarat has been translated >>>>>>> into a >>>>>>> > better life for all the people in Gujarat, including the >>>>>>> minorities. Your >>>>>>> > editorial recommends open verification of the claims. The >>>>>>> high-powered >>>>>>> > committee appointed by the Prime Minister has to a great extent not >>>>>>> only >>>>>>> > verified the claims but also clearly established that these claims >>>>>>> are >>>>>>> > true. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > _________________________________________ >>>>>>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>>>> > Critiques & Collaborations >>>>>>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>>>> > subscribe in the subject header. >>>>>>> > To unsubscribe: >>>>>>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>>>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> > From taraprakash at gmail.com Wed May 26 19:03:57 2010 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 09:33:57 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Extreme Heat in Gujarat - But No Load shedding References: <001e01cafc8a$bd8b9b90$38a2d2b0$@in> Message-ID: <789037A394744D42842563FFAF30FF43@tara> Amitji? Ji ji. Did we still use this honorific suffix when he was brand ambassador for UP and hobnobing with Amarji and Mulayam ji? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bipin Trivedi" To: "'Pawan Durani'" Cc: "sarai-list" Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2010 12:20 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Extreme Heat in Gujarat - But No Load shedding > Dear Pawan, > > Who oppose for Amitji to become brand ambassador of Gujarat like Mallika > and others, where are they? I am sure they will keep mum now. Since, > commitment of Amitji to work even on this heat wave and without a single > penny forced them to keep mum. Anyway, everyone knows Mallika staying in > Gujarat but working for anti Gujarat element! > > Thanks > Bipin > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net [mailto:reader-list-bounces at sarai.net] > On Behalf Of Pawan Durani > Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 10:32 PM > To: reader-list > Subject: [Reader-list] Extreme Heat in Gujarat - But No Load shedding > > Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi has in his latest blog post > welcomed India’s legendary super star Amitabh Bachchan to Gujarat to > promote Tourism. Modi praised Bachchan for his determination to > fulfill his commitment to promote Gujarat’s tourism against all > accusations. > > Modi writes: “Amitabhji is coming to Gujarat to promote Tourism in > Gujarat and I welcome him. Gujarat is excited by his visit and a grand > reception awaits him. But I want to express my inner feelings. There > were plenty of innuendos and accusations when he became the brand > ambassador of Gujarat tourism. Anybody in his place would have been > shaken and backed out. Even his fans were worried whether he can > withstand such onslaught. But Amitabhji stood tall not only due to his > physical height but also due to his determination in fulfilling his > commitment. For the sake of Gujarat and India Amitabhji kept his words > and this sort of commitment has set highest standard in professional > ethics and has become a shining example for other professionals.” > > Modi further states: ” In this extreme heat wave conditions, when > nobody from outside can even think of visiting Kutch even if paid, > Amitabhji will spend three days in the white Rann of Kutch to promote > tourism without charging a single penny. His altruism speaks about his > love for Gujarat and India.” > > On Air-India plane crash > > Modi in his blog writes that he worked as a volunteer when aa plane > crashed in Ahmedabad many years ago. In connection with recent > Mangalore crash, Modi says, ” The recent Air-India Express plane crash > at hilly Mangalore airport was heart-rending to say the least. As last > reports came in 158 lives had been irretrievably lost. This is a > grievous loss of lives for the victims’ families and the country. The > tragedy reminds me of a similar painful mishap when an airliner > crashed in Ahmedabad many years ago. At that time I worked as a > volunteer helping the affected. The Mangalore crash brought painful > scenes of crash to my mind. I pray that such gory tragedies don’t > occur and result in loss of precious human lives and trauma to the > survivors and their families.” > > On extreme heat condition in Gujarat > > Modi blogs that unlike other states, Gujarat is free from power cuts > and load shedding in this unthinkable temperature. He writes, “Excess > heat is dogging Gujarat even as the State sizzles under temperature > soaring to unthinkable 48.5 degrees Celsius, one of the highest this > century. We are experiencing the effects of Global Warming. People are > suffering and particularly the poor. Fortunately, unlike other States, > Gujarat is free from power cuts and load shedding and one can access > fans to cool themselves and get some relief. Mercifully, the forecast > for normal monsoon give us hope and I wish our farmers do really > benefit. > > > On cotton export ban > > Modi addresses an important recent rural Gujarat related issue in his > blog post. He says, “Due to ban on cotton export by Central government > for unknown reasons, the farmers of Gujarat suffered heavy loss of > about Rs 2000 crores in a span of one month. Though the central > government rectified its decision and allowed export with licence > subsequently, the delay had already caused enough damage to Gujarat’s > farmers.” > > Modi’s complete blog post can be visited on this > link:http://NarendraModi.Com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From aliens at dataone.in Wed May 26 19:32:48 2010 From: aliens at dataone.in (Bipin Trivedi) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 19:32:48 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Extreme Heat in Gujarat - But No Load shedding In-Reply-To: <789037A394744D42842563FFAF30FF43@tara> References: <001e01cafc8a$bd8b9b90$38a2d2b0$@in> <789037A394744D42842563FFAF30FF43@tara> Message-ID: <001e01cafcdc$1fd64060$5f82c120$@in> That was respect given as elders and which I normally give to all. Since there was oppose from some section for him to become brand ambassador I pu up this comment. -----Original Message----- From: TaraPrakash [mailto:taraprakash at gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2010 7:04 PM To: Bipin Trivedi; 'Pawan Durani' Cc: sarai-list Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Extreme Heat in Gujarat - But No Load shedding Amitji? Ji ji. Did we still use this honorific suffix when he was brand ambassador for UP and hobnobing with Amarji and Mulayam ji? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bipin Trivedi" To: "'Pawan Durani'" Cc: "sarai-list" Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2010 12:20 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Extreme Heat in Gujarat - But No Load shedding > Dear Pawan, > > Who oppose for Amitji to become brand ambassador of Gujarat like Mallika > and others, where are they? I am sure they will keep mum now. Since, > commitment of Amitji to work even on this heat wave and without a single > penny forced them to keep mum. Anyway, everyone knows Mallika staying in > Gujarat but working for anti Gujarat element! > > Thanks > Bipin > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net [mailto:reader-list-bounces at sarai.net] > On Behalf Of Pawan Durani > Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 10:32 PM > To: reader-list > Subject: [Reader-list] Extreme Heat in Gujarat - But No Load shedding > > Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi has in his latest blog post > welcomed India’s legendary super star Amitabh Bachchan to Gujarat to > promote Tourism. Modi praised Bachchan for his determination to > fulfill his commitment to promote Gujarat’s tourism against all > accusations. > > Modi writes: “Amitabhji is coming to Gujarat to promote Tourism in > Gujarat and I welcome him. Gujarat is excited by his visit and a grand > reception awaits him. But I want to express my inner feelings. There > were plenty of innuendos and accusations when he became the brand > ambassador of Gujarat tourism. Anybody in his place would have been > shaken and backed out. Even his fans were worried whether he can > withstand such onslaught. But Amitabhji stood tall not only due to his > physical height but also due to his determination in fulfilling his > commitment. For the sake of Gujarat and India Amitabhji kept his words > and this sort of commitment has set highest standard in professional > ethics and has become a shining example for other professionals.” > > Modi further states: ” In this extreme heat wave conditions, when > nobody from outside can even think of visiting Kutch even if paid, > Amitabhji will spend three days in the white Rann of Kutch to promote > tourism without charging a single penny. His altruism speaks about his > love for Gujarat and India.” > > On Air-India plane crash > > Modi in his blog writes that he worked as a volunteer when aa plane > crashed in Ahmedabad many years ago. In connection with recent > Mangalore crash, Modi says, ” The recent Air-India Express plane crash > at hilly Mangalore airport was heart-rending to say the least. As last > reports came in 158 lives had been irretrievably lost. This is a > grievous loss of lives for the victims’ families and the country. The > tragedy reminds me of a similar painful mishap when an airliner > crashed in Ahmedabad many years ago. At that time I worked as a > volunteer helping the affected. The Mangalore crash brought painful > scenes of crash to my mind. I pray that such gory tragedies don’t > occur and result in loss of precious human lives and trauma to the > survivors and their families.” > > On extreme heat condition in Gujarat > > Modi blogs that unlike other states, Gujarat is free from power cuts > and load shedding in this unthinkable temperature. He writes, “Excess > heat is dogging Gujarat even as the State sizzles under temperature > soaring to unthinkable 48.5 degrees Celsius, one of the highest this > century. We are experiencing the effects of Global Warming. People are > suffering and particularly the poor. Fortunately, unlike other States, > Gujarat is free from power cuts and load shedding and one can access > fans to cool themselves and get some relief. Mercifully, the forecast > for normal monsoon give us hope and I wish our farmers do really > benefit. > > > On cotton export ban > > Modi addresses an important recent rural Gujarat related issue in his > blog post. He says, “Due to ban on cotton export by Central government > for unknown reasons, the farmers of Gujarat suffered heavy loss of > about Rs 2000 crores in a span of one month. Though the central > government rectified its decision and allowed export with licence > subsequently, the delay had already caused enough damage to Gujarat’s > farmers.” > > Modi’s complete blog post can be visited on this > link:http://NarendraModi.Com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From aliens at dataone.in Wed May 26 19:35:19 2010 From: aliens at dataone.in (Bipin Trivedi) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 19:35:19 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] NO CAVILING AT GUJARAT'S HARD FACTS In-Reply-To: References: <001a01cafcba$47ab3680$d701a380$@in> Message-ID: <001f01cafcdc$7c2b0800$74811800$@in> Yes, yesterday there was clash between 2 section and curfew imposed but it's ok today. It was quite normal though it was curfew but normal traffic was there even in the curfew and police allowed the normal way. Even I passed through that From: Pawan Durani [mailto:pawan.durani at gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2010 4:57 PM To: anupam chakravartty Cc: Bipin Trivedi; sarai list Subject: Re: [Reader-list] NO CAVILING AT GUJARAT'S HARD FACTS Any idea of recent communal riot in Shahpur , Ahmedabad....I dont see anyone discussing that. pawan On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 4:43 PM, anupam chakravartty wrote: Bipin, I have a few questions for you: When was the Sachar committee report filed? Was there any such committee before Sachar to assess the condition of one particular community as mentioned in your post? Do you think a comparative analysis is required in ascertaining the conditions prevalent in the community now and then? thanks anupam On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 3:30 PM, Bipin Trivedi wrote: > To an editorial published in the Indian Express on May 22 titled " > Hard facts > to > face" the Gujarat Government had sent a letter in response stating the > factual position regarding the status of Muslim in Gujarat. > A part of the > letter > was published in the Indian Express dated May 26, 2010. The complete > version > of the letter that was sent to the Editor Indian Express is enclosed > herewith so that you will be conversant with the real hard facts. > > > > Refer link: http://www.indianexpress.com/news/hard-facts-to-face/622193/0 > > > No caviling at Gujarat's hard facts > > How do Muslims fare in Gujarat? They fare much better compared to other > states. The objective study by the Prime Minister's high-level committee > headed by Justice Rajendra Sachar, appointed by Prime Minister Dr Manmohan > Singh in 2006, indicates that Muslims in Gujarat perform and fare much > better when compared with other states in several key indicators such as > education, employment, income and access to critical infrastructure. The > editorial in the Indian Express dated May 22, 2010 is mostly based on > perceptions and anecdotal evidences rather than hard facts. However the > facts below speak for themselves. > > In trying to make out a case for Muslim children being given a raw deal in > primary and upper primary school enrolment facts that has placed Muslims in > Gujarat on the top of literacy ladder have been totally ignored. According > to Sachar committee report the percentage of literacy of Muslims in Gujarat > is 73.5 per cent, the highest in India. It is pertinent to note that this > is > much higher than that of national average of 59.1 per cent and also the > percentage of literacy of Hindus in Gujarat which is 68.3 per cent. Even > Muslim women in urban areas of Gujarat have average literacy rate 5 points > higher than the national average and rural Muslim women are far much better > with their literacy rate of 57 per cent as compared to the national average > of 43 per cent. If Muslim children are not provided education how can > Muslims in Gujarat attain the highest literacy rate in the country? > > During 2009-10 the enrolment of Muslim children has been 6.45 per cent (as > against 4.7 per cent reported). It should be kept mind that this percentage > excludes the enrolment in Madarsas and also some of the private schools > which do not provide segregated data. The very fact that Muslims in Gujarat > have the highest literacy rate in the country proves that they have access > to education much better than in other states. If you look at Muslim > education attainment those who have passed the primary stage are 74.9 per > cent way ahead of the national average 60.9 per cent. In the category of > those who passed secondary education Gujarat at 45.3 is ahead of the > national average of 40.5 per cent. Even in the category of those who have > passed higher secondary level Gujarat with 26.1 per cent is ahead of the > national average of 23.9 per cent. In the average years of secondary > schooling provided between the age group of 7-16 once again Gujarat with > 4.29 per cent is ahead of the nationa Your reference to Juhapura area of > Ahmedabad lacking schools due to "gradual disentitlement and ghettoisation > of Gujarat's Muslims" is specious to the say the least as the facts prove > otherwise. There are eight high schools out of which three are > government-aided schools. In Juhapura and surrounding areas there are 13 > municipal primary schools funded by the state government and also 15 > private > schools. Far from being ghettoized there is ample opportunity for the > Muslim > children to enroll themselves. > > Secondly it has become a knee-jerk habit of secularists to pooh-pooh the > good governance of the state of Gujarat. And as to your question if "his > fabled governance genius translate into a better life for those his > politics > rejects?" the answer is clearly in the Sachar report which has called the > bluff of those who have tried to besmirch Gujarat. > > In the very social sectors which your editorial cites as the indicator of > percolation of development to the minorities, Sachar Committee report > reveals the performance of Gujarat is far better than many other states. > The > document also reveals Gujarat is far ahead in terms of providing education > facilities and health facilities. If we take the case availability of > schools in villages where there is Muslim population Gujarat is far ahead > of > the national average. In the category of villages with population of > Muslims > more than 2000 all the villages have education facility as against 98.7 per > cent national average. In the category of 1000 to 2000 population, 99.9 per > cent villages have education facilities as against the national average of > 95.4 per cent. In the category of less than 1000 population 98.6 per cent > of > the villages have education facility as against the national average of > 80.4 > per cent. > > When we consider the availability of medical facilities in villages, where > Muslim population is more 2000, 89.9 per cent of the villages have medical > facilities as against the national average of 70.7 per cent. In the > category > of 1000-2000 population, 66.67 per cent of villages have medical facilities > against the national average of 43.5 per cent. In the category of villages > less than 1000 population, 53 per cent of the villages have medical > facilities as against the national average of 20.2 per cent. > > Even in the case of other indicators such as road connectivity, > availability > of pucca approach road etc Gujarat is far ahead of national average and > many > other states. Even on per month per capita income of Muslims is more than > the Hindus of Gujarat in rural areas. For Muslims it stands at Rs 668 > compared to Rs 644 for Hindus (SCs Rs 527 and OBCs Rs 594). This is much > higher than many other states for example Andhra Pradesh (Rs 610); West > Bengal (Rs 501); UP (Rs 509); Karnataka (Rs 532); MP (Rs 475) . The per > capita income of Muslims in urban areas is also higher than the national > average and many other states. (see Sachar report). The prosperity of > Muslims in Gujarat when compared with other states is reflected in terms of > the bank account wise average deposit. For instance Gujarat it is Rs 32,932 > compared to West Bengal Rs 13, 824, Assam Rs 26,319 to cite a few examples. > > If you take the employment of Muslims in critical departments of government > such as home department, state transport dept and even in public sectors > the > percentage of Muslims occupying high posts is higher in Gujarat when > compared with other States. Just to cite an example in Gujarat where the > percentage of Muslims is 9.1 the proportion of Muslims in high posts is 8.5 > per cent whereas in West Bengal where the Muslim population is 25.2 per > cent > the proportion of Muslims is merely 1.2 per cent. > > To discuss on each and every parameter to establish that Muslims fare far > better in Gujarat is neither required nor possible to enumerate in a > letter. > Your editorial mentions that Modi should be open to verification of his > claims of inclusive development. The above mentioned facts clearly > demonstrate that better governance in Gujarat has been translated into a > better life for all the people in Gujarat, including the minorities. Your > editorial recommends open verification of the claims. The high-powered > committee appointed by the Prime Minister has to a great extent not only > verified the claims but also clearly established that these claims are > true. > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pkray11 at gmail.com Wed May 26 20:01:43 2010 From: pkray11 at gmail.com (Prakash K Ray) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 20:01:43 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Congress Led Secular Govt seeks Facebook Ban Message-ID: Dear Pawan, Do not loose heart. If they ban FB, we will contact either of Senas (even both) and will 'rent a riot' in favor of Facebook. We may consider 'Sangham Sharanam'. What you say buddy!! PKR From taraprakash at gmail.com Wed May 26 20:03:47 2010 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 10:33:47 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] manufacturing flags for burning References: <947792.17690.qm@web51407.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: A lot of people in US are mad at face book about their privacy policy. Wish they had some flags to burn to. More demands for flags, even for burning, is good for business, probably they will employ some more people. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Yousuf" To: "sarai list" Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2010 7:46 AM Subject: [Reader-list] manufacturing flags for burning > Facebook fuels American flag business in Pak > AFP, May 26, 2010, 12.23pm IST > > KARACHI: In Pakistan a row about Facebook, censorship and religious > sacrilege means booming demand for replica American and Israeli flags to > go up in flames at protest rallies. > > That means one thing for 31-year-old Mamoon ur Rasheed – business – and he > is working long into the night to churn out the paraphernalia beloved of > Islamic activists taking to the streets. > > "I have nothing to do with any political party, but it is really enjoyable > when you see your work on TV screens," a laughing Rasheed said. > > "I'm busy every day making banners and placards for different religious > and political parties, but work gets a boost – especially when > international controversy concerning Muslims breaks out," he said. > > When a Facebook user decided to organise an "Everyone Draw Mohammed Day" > competition to promote "freedom of expression", it sparked a major > backlash among Islamic activists in the South Asian country of 170 > million. > > Islam strictly prohibits the depiction of any prophet as blasphemous and > the row sparked comparison with protests across the Muslim world over the > publication of satirical cartoons of Mohammed in European newspapers in > 2006. > > Several thousand Pakistanis have taken to the streets at the behest of > right-wing religious groups, who turn to Rasheed when they need flags to > burn and banners to write. > > "Generally, we receive orders for banners for a couple of demonstrations a > day, but due to the blasphemous drawings issue, the number of orders for > flags and banners has increased by 10 to 12 per day," said Rasheed. > > "Flags are made for burning. They symbolise what our clients want to > express and we are paid for it, so I'm happy to see our work go up in > flames." > > Rasheed owns a workshop where he employs four craftsmen to paint flags and > write calligraphy, and a small printing press. > > "We have received continuous orders for American and Israeli flags. > Normally we paint them but when demand surges into the hundreds we print > these flags to get them to our clients in time," he said. > > In the wake of the Prophet Mohammed controversy, Pakistan blocked hundreds > of web pages to limit access to "blasphemous" material, banning access to > US-based Facebook and YouTube – the two most popular websites in the > country. > > A court in the eastern city of Lahore ordered the block on Facebook until > at least May 31, when it is scheduled to hear a petition from Islamic > lawyers. > > Although none of the protests has mobilised the masses, sporadic > demonstrators have continued to vent anger in Karachi and other cities. > > Rasheed runs his business on times of stress. Different periods mean > demand for the flags of India – Pakistan's deepest rival with whom the > country has fought three wars – Norway and Sweden, and former colonial > ruler Britain. > > Four years ago, widespread protests broke out in the conservative Muslim > nation over satirical cartoons of Mohammed that were published by a Danish > newspaper and then reprinted in other European countries. > > Then in 2008, thousands of Pakistani Islamists rallied against an > anti-Koran film made by a far-right Dutch lawmaker. Another focal point > for anger has been Swedish artist Lars Vilks, who etched a blasphemous > caricature. > > Whenever elections approach or protests start, wholesalers stock huge > quantities of cheap cloth and reap handsome rewards. > > "We are getting bigger orders from scores of painters and printers > nowadays," cloth merchant Mohammad Siddique said. > > "Pakistan is the country of protests and for this Karachi is undoubtedly > its capital and our business gets a boost in such circumstances," Siddique > said. > > Waqar Ahmed, owner of a printing press in Karachi's southern neighbourhood > Pakistan Chowk, says orders are flooding in for posters, pamphlets and > placards, temporarily overtaking his main business in books and wedding > cards. > > "I get orders for pamphlets and posters in the event of controversies or > elections," Waqar says. May 15, when Palestinians marked Naqba day – the > so-called catastrophe of Israel's creation in 1948 – is another landmark. > > "I got some orders to print flags of Israel and United States – 100 a > piece – during Naqba rallies. We have also sold some American and Swedish > flags during the protests against Facebook," Ahmed said. > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed May 26 20:05:09 2010 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 20:05:09 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Congress Led Secular Govt seeks Facebook Ban In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Prakash Yes , Alternatively if they fail We may have even FaceBook change its color from Blue to 'RED' and consider putting a hammer and sickle logo somewhere .. What you say buddy !! Pawan On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 8:01 PM, Prakash K Ray wrote: > Dear Pawan, > > Do not loose heart. If they ban FB, we will contact either of Senas (even > both) and will 'rent a riot' in favor of Facebook. We may consider 'Sangham > Sharanam'. What you say buddy!! > > PKR > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed May 26 20:01:07 2010 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 20:01:07 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] NO CAVILING AT GUJARAT'S HARD FACTS In-Reply-To: References: <001a01cafcba$47ab3680$d701a380$@in> Message-ID: <<<<<<>>>> Arent you blind to everything else Mr Anupam C ....so fixated towards Gujarat....as long as you exist ...so would I... Enjoy ! Pawan On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 7:00 PM, anupam chakravartty wrote: > Pawan, > > Analyse your concerns for Gujarat as well when you (or Bipin) selectively > pick up only some topics or issues from the state while turning a blind eye > to everything else. Such is this apathy, that indigenous communities, mostly > Bhils from Dahod are now being turned into puppets during the implementation > of the Forest Rights Act. > > But you speak for Hindus, I forgot. I wonder how many Hindus really bother > about Krishna's idols in Gujarat. How many actually source their energies > through these idols? For some, it is getting their names engraved on the > stones next to these idols by sending funds or donations. So Loving or > believing or respecting one's god these days is a question of ego not of > faith. (it is same as my car is longer than yours) If it was faith, such > fierce defence or such assertions wouldn't have been required. One also > would not require these mindless pontifications in defence of the good and > the god. here the idea of god is in doubt Pawan, not your faith. it is going > to remain the way it is. so it is your god ( or your ego) or may be of those > who were rioting over this idol business, which needs to be rescued not > everybody else. do not assume that you can speak for peoples' faith. you > have no idea what it is. > > best > anupam > > > On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 6:15 PM, anupam chakravartty wrote: > >> Pawan, one doesnt need to be believer or non-believer to admonish an act >> of crime in the name of whichever religion. I think i have not hurt anyone >> by any means when i say that an idol is a piece of stone. if you have >> problem, you can take this discussion to somewhere else where your views are >> endorsed. not here! >> >> Please reply to the questions being posed Pawan. You are aimlessly arguing >> here. If Bipin doesnt have answers, the questions are open to all. Tell me >> if you need a comparative analysis of data for a period of time, about one >> particular community to ascertain whether it is doing well or not for >> Gujarat? that's all i asked. >> >> >> On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 6:05 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: >> >>> Dear Anupam , >>> >>> If you are an atheist , I would respect your decision for being that. >>> However I would request you to respect others faith as well. >>> >>> A stone for you may be a representation of God for many. >>> >>> Please restrict your views on faith and oblige. >>> >>> Pawan >>> >>> >>> On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 5:52 PM, anupam chakravartty >> > wrote: >>> >>>> Pawan, >>>> >>>> your intervention here is unneccesary. i think you have option of >>>> continuing this discussion anyway. doesnt it infuriate you that people in >>>> this country are out to kill each other for piece of stone? >>>> >>>> anupam >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 5:26 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: >>>> >>>>> Anupam, >>>>> >>>>> It seems you re always angry ....Never knew that >>>>> a query would infuriate you so much. >>>>> >>>>> In recent case a Hindu marriage procession was not allowed to pass a >>>>> road where a mosque also existed. >>>>> >>>>> What else do you need to know Mr Anupam C >>>>> >>>>> pawan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 5:14 PM, anupam chakravartty < >>>>> c.anupam at gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Pawan, >>>>>> >>>>>> An idol was desecrated just like temples were brought down in >>>>>> Gandhinagar and Mazars was razed in Karjan in Vadodara district, graves >>>>>> razed in Dahod, just like a Swami murdered in Vadtal at the swaminarayan >>>>>> temple. actually you know what, the God in that idol was killed long ago by >>>>>> their own believers. Didnt you know that Pawan? Pity that you are so >>>>>> blissfully unaware about it and feign some kind of innocence in initiating a >>>>>> discussion on communal rioting in Shahpur. That riots have become >>>>>> institutionalized in Gujarat and people place bets on them is a known fact >>>>>> as demonstrated by the arrest of Vadodara bookie, Arvind Valand last year >>>>>> where he confessed. for all you know, your discussion about this particular >>>>>> might be bringing more cash for the bookies. >>>>>> >>>>>> Instead you could address some of the questions i have put up for >>>>>> Bipin. >>>>>> >>>>>> anupam >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 4:56 PM, Pawan Durani >>>>> > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Any idea of recent communal riot in Shahpur , Ahmedabad....I dont see >>>>>>> anyone discussing that. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> pawan >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 4:43 PM, anupam chakravartty < >>>>>>> c.anupam at gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Bipin, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I have a few questions for you: When was the Sachar committee report >>>>>>>> filed? >>>>>>>> Was there any such committee before Sachar to assess the condition >>>>>>>> of one >>>>>>>> particular community as mentioned in your post? Do you think a >>>>>>>> comparative >>>>>>>> analysis is required in ascertaining the conditions prevalent in the >>>>>>>> community now and then? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> thanks anupam >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 3:30 PM, Bipin Trivedi >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> > To an editorial published in the Indian Express on May 22 titled " >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Hard facts >>>>>>>> > to >>>>>>>> > face" the Gujarat Government had sent a letter in response stating >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> > factual position regarding the status of Muslim in Gujarat. >>>>>>>> > A part of >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> > letter >>>>>>>> > was published in the Indian Express dated May 26, 2010. The >>>>>>>> complete >>>>>>>> > version >>>>>>>> > of the letter that was sent to the Editor Indian Express is >>>>>>>> enclosed >>>>>>>> > herewith so that you will be conversant with the real hard facts. >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > Refer link: >>>>>>>> http://www.indianexpress.com/news/hard-facts-to-face/622193/0 >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > No caviling at Gujarat's hard facts >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > How do Muslims fare in Gujarat? They fare much better compared to >>>>>>>> other >>>>>>>> > states. The objective study by the Prime Minister's high-level >>>>>>>> committee >>>>>>>> > headed by Justice Rajendra Sachar, appointed by Prime Minister Dr >>>>>>>> Manmohan >>>>>>>> > Singh in 2006, indicates that Muslims in Gujarat perform and fare >>>>>>>> much >>>>>>>> > better when compared with other states in several key indicators >>>>>>>> such as >>>>>>>> > education, employment, income and access to critical >>>>>>>> infrastructure. The >>>>>>>> > editorial in the Indian Express dated May 22, 2010 is mostly based >>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>> > perceptions and anecdotal evidences rather than hard facts. >>>>>>>> However the >>>>>>>> > facts below speak for themselves. >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > In trying to make out a case for Muslim children being given a raw >>>>>>>> deal in >>>>>>>> > primary and upper primary school enrolment facts that has placed >>>>>>>> Muslims in >>>>>>>> > Gujarat on the top of literacy ladder have been totally ignored. >>>>>>>> According >>>>>>>> > to Sachar committee report the percentage of literacy of Muslims >>>>>>>> in Gujarat >>>>>>>> > is 73.5 per cent, the highest in India. It is pertinent to note >>>>>>>> that this >>>>>>>> > is >>>>>>>> > much higher than that of national average of 59.1 per cent and >>>>>>>> also the >>>>>>>> > percentage of literacy of Hindus in Gujarat which is 68.3 per >>>>>>>> cent. Even >>>>>>>> > Muslim women in urban areas of Gujarat have average literacy rate >>>>>>>> 5 points >>>>>>>> > higher than the national average and rural Muslim women are far >>>>>>>> much better >>>>>>>> > with their literacy rate of 57 per cent as compared to the >>>>>>>> national average >>>>>>>> > of 43 per cent. If Muslim children are not provided education how >>>>>>>> can >>>>>>>> > Muslims in Gujarat attain the highest literacy rate in the >>>>>>>> country? >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > During 2009-10 the enrolment of Muslim children has been 6.45 per >>>>>>>> cent (as >>>>>>>> > against 4.7 per cent reported). It should be kept mind that this >>>>>>>> percentage >>>>>>>> > excludes the enrolment in Madarsas and also some of the private >>>>>>>> schools >>>>>>>> > which do not provide segregated data. The very fact that Muslims >>>>>>>> in Gujarat >>>>>>>> > have the highest literacy rate in the country proves that they >>>>>>>> have access >>>>>>>> > to education much better than in other states. If you look at >>>>>>>> Muslim >>>>>>>> > education attainment those who have passed the primary stage are >>>>>>>> 74.9 per >>>>>>>> > cent way ahead of the national average 60.9 per cent. In the >>>>>>>> category of >>>>>>>> > those who passed secondary education Gujarat at 45.3 is ahead of >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> > national average of 40.5 per cent. Even in the category of those >>>>>>>> who have >>>>>>>> > passed higher secondary level Gujarat with 26.1 per cent is ahead >>>>>>>> of the >>>>>>>> > national average of 23.9 per cent. In the average years of >>>>>>>> secondary >>>>>>>> > schooling provided between the age group of 7-16 once again >>>>>>>> Gujarat with >>>>>>>> > 4.29 per cent is ahead of the nationa Your reference to Juhapura >>>>>>>> area of >>>>>>>> > Ahmedabad lacking schools due to "gradual disentitlement and >>>>>>>> ghettoisation >>>>>>>> > of Gujarat's Muslims" is specious to the say the least as the >>>>>>>> facts prove >>>>>>>> > otherwise. There are eight high schools out of which three are >>>>>>>> > government-aided schools. In Juhapura and surrounding areas there >>>>>>>> are 13 >>>>>>>> > municipal primary schools funded by the state government and also >>>>>>>> 15 >>>>>>>> > private >>>>>>>> > schools. Far from being ghettoized there is ample opportunity for >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> > Muslim >>>>>>>> > children to enroll themselves. >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > Secondly it has become a knee-jerk habit of secularists to >>>>>>>> pooh-pooh the >>>>>>>> > good governance of the state of Gujarat. And as to your question >>>>>>>> if "his >>>>>>>> > fabled governance genius translate into a better life for those >>>>>>>> his >>>>>>>> > politics >>>>>>>> > rejects?" the answer is clearly in the Sachar report which has >>>>>>>> called the >>>>>>>> > bluff of those who have tried to besmirch Gujarat. >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > In the very social sectors which your editorial cites as the >>>>>>>> indicator of >>>>>>>> > percolation of development to the minorities, Sachar Committee >>>>>>>> report >>>>>>>> > reveals the performance of Gujarat is far better than many other >>>>>>>> states. >>>>>>>> > The >>>>>>>> > document also reveals Gujarat is far ahead in terms of providing >>>>>>>> education >>>>>>>> > facilities and health facilities. If we take the case availability >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> > schools in villages where there is Muslim population Gujarat is >>>>>>>> far ahead >>>>>>>> > of >>>>>>>> > the national average. In the category of villages with population >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> > Muslims >>>>>>>> > more than 2000 all the villages have education facility as against >>>>>>>> 98.7 per >>>>>>>> > cent national average. In the category of 1000 to 2000 population, >>>>>>>> 99.9 per >>>>>>>> > cent villages have education facilities as against the national >>>>>>>> average of >>>>>>>> > 95.4 per cent. In the category of less than 1000 population 98.6 >>>>>>>> per cent >>>>>>>> > of >>>>>>>> > the villages have education facility as against the national >>>>>>>> average of >>>>>>>> > 80.4 >>>>>>>> > per cent. >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > When we consider the availability of medical facilities in >>>>>>>> villages, where >>>>>>>> > Muslim population is more 2000, 89.9 per cent of the villages have >>>>>>>> medical >>>>>>>> > facilities as against the national average of 70.7 per cent. In >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> > category >>>>>>>> > of 1000-2000 population, 66.67 per cent of villages have medical >>>>>>>> facilities >>>>>>>> > against the national average of 43.5 per cent. In the category of >>>>>>>> villages >>>>>>>> > less than 1000 population, 53 per cent of the villages have >>>>>>>> medical >>>>>>>> > facilities as against the national average of 20.2 per cent. >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > Even in the case of other indicators such as road connectivity, >>>>>>>> > availability >>>>>>>> > of pucca approach road etc Gujarat is far ahead of national >>>>>>>> average and >>>>>>>> > many >>>>>>>> > other states. Even on per month per capita income of Muslims is >>>>>>>> more than >>>>>>>> > the Hindus of Gujarat in rural areas. For Muslims it stands at Rs >>>>>>>> 668 >>>>>>>> > compared to Rs 644 for Hindus (SCs Rs 527 and OBCs Rs 594). This >>>>>>>> is much >>>>>>>> > higher than many other states for example Andhra Pradesh (Rs 610); >>>>>>>> West >>>>>>>> > Bengal (Rs 501); UP (Rs 509); Karnataka (Rs 532); MP (Rs 475) . >>>>>>>> The per >>>>>>>> > capita income of Muslims in urban areas is also higher than the >>>>>>>> national >>>>>>>> > average and many other states. (see Sachar report). The prosperity >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> > Muslims in Gujarat when compared with other states is reflected in >>>>>>>> terms of >>>>>>>> > the bank account wise average deposit. For instance Gujarat it is >>>>>>>> Rs 32,932 >>>>>>>> > compared to West Bengal Rs 13, 824, Assam Rs 26,319 to cite a few >>>>>>>> examples. >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > If you take the employment of Muslims in critical departments of >>>>>>>> government >>>>>>>> > such as home department, state transport dept and even in public >>>>>>>> sectors >>>>>>>> > the >>>>>>>> > percentage of Muslims occupying high posts is higher in Gujarat >>>>>>>> when >>>>>>>> > compared with other States. Just to cite an example in Gujarat >>>>>>>> where the >>>>>>>> > percentage of Muslims is 9.1 the proportion of Muslims in high >>>>>>>> posts is 8.5 >>>>>>>> > per cent whereas in West Bengal where the Muslim population is >>>>>>>> 25.2 per >>>>>>>> > cent >>>>>>>> > the proportion of Muslims is merely 1.2 per cent. >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > To discuss on each and every parameter to establish that Muslims >>>>>>>> fare far >>>>>>>> > better in Gujarat is neither required nor possible to enumerate in >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> > letter. >>>>>>>> > Your editorial mentions that Modi should be open to verification >>>>>>>> of his >>>>>>>> > claims of inclusive development. The above mentioned facts clearly >>>>>>>> > demonstrate that better governance in Gujarat has been translated >>>>>>>> into a >>>>>>>> > better life for all the people in Gujarat, including the >>>>>>>> minorities. Your >>>>>>>> > editorial recommends open verification of the claims. The >>>>>>>> high-powered >>>>>>>> > committee appointed by the Prime Minister has to a great extent >>>>>>>> not only >>>>>>>> > verified the claims but also clearly established that these claims >>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>> > true. >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > _________________________________________ >>>>>>>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>>>>> > Critiques & Collaborations >>>>>>>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>>>>> > subscribe in the subject header. >>>>>>>> > To unsubscribe: >>>>>>>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>>>>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>>>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>>>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> > From kalakamra at gmail.com Wed May 26 21:55:44 2010 From: kalakamra at gmail.com (shaina a) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 21:55:44 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Pad.ma Newsletter 2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: *Pad.ma Newsletter 2* http://pad.ma/newsletter In April, Pad.ma conducted a two-week workshop in Beirut titled 'Don't Wait for the Archive: Archiving Practices and Futures of the Image'. This workshop, more a time for production than an "event", had two threads: one was inviting people to contribute materials to Pad.ma , and the second was a conceptual stream that worked through general questions around the archive, with readings from an Archive Readerwe had put together. Beirut has a vibrant and colourful recent history around the archive. This includes the tradition of films and publications by the The Atlas Group /Walid Raad, Akram Zataari, independent archive-institutions such as the Arab Image Foundation , the Arab Images Foundation, UMAM and numerous others, and a competitive economic and cultural currency of the archive within the region. In this context, Pad.ma offered new tools and provocations, suggesting another type of archival space. In turn Beirut, as Pad.ma's first serious international engagement, threw us new challenges and broadened the scope of our engagement with the archive. We would like to thank here the many participants of the workshop whose materials are in Pad.ma, and those who contributed to the workshop through texts, interventions, films, and conversations. Thanks also to Ashkal Alwan, the HomeWorks V team, and the Bohen Foundation and to everyone who hosted us at Sanayeh house, with special thanks to Mansour Aziz and Ghassan Maasri. In this newsletter, we present materials produced during the Beirut workshop as well as the text '10 Theses on the Archive'. The theses are a set of propositions made by us towards the future of the archive, presented at a colloquium at Home Works V, after the workshop. Also in this newsletter is a large collection of videos by the India Theatre Forum, which documents presentations and discussions about the diversity of Indian theatre at the 'Not the Drama Seminar' (2008). Two new video sets concern the law, human rights and post-26/11 legislation. There is video documentation from 'To See is To Change', a two-day event in which a ‘parallax view’ of the ‘40 years of German Video Art’ collection is presented by artists, curators and critics in Mumbai. Other contributions include footage from Shaina Anand's Khirkeeyaan project, which 'short-circuits' local media networks, and footage from Steal This Film II, a key film on intellectual property. As always, we welcome your contributions (video, text or thoughts) to this growing, and now, international collection of materials. Send us your feedback at pad.ma at pad.ma. *<> * *10 Theses on the Archive:* 1. Don’t wait for the archive 2. Archives are not reducible to the particular forms that they take 3. The direction of archiving will be outward, not inward 4. The archive is not a scene of redemption 5. The archive deals not only with the remnant but also with the reserve 6. Historians have merely interpreted the archive. The point however is to feel it. 7. The image is not just the visible, the text is not just the sayable 8. The past of the exhibition threatens the future of the archive 9. Archives are governed by the laws of Intellectual Propriety as opposed to Property 10. Time is not outside of the archive: it is in it Full text at http://pad.ma/texts/10_Theses_on_the_Archive.html by Ashok Sukumaran, Lawrence Liang and Sebastian Lütgert *<