From gowharfazili at yahoo.com Fri May 1 00:48:23 2009 From: gowharfazili at yahoo.com (gowhar fazli) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 12:18:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Arundhati Roy's interview on BBC Urdu Message-ID: <930629.71895.qm@web65716.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> I thought apart from subversion of Hindi/Urdu in a South Indian style, which in itself is so entertaining... I think the interview is beautiful. Just look at how freely and fearlessly she thinks!! It is a good break from routine fascist garbage masked as intellect (funny in its own way) we are subject to on a daily basis. http://www.bbc.co.uk/urdu/multimedia/2009/04/090428_arundhati_wusat_uk.shtml From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Fri May 1 07:32:44 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Fri, 1 May 2009 03:02:44 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Scrap ID cards plan, says David Blunkett Message-ID: <65be9bf40904301902i182473e1v955a677bffc1a1bf@mail.gmail.com> http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/apr/28/blunkett-id-cards Scrap ID cards plan, says David Blunkett Passports with biometric data would do same job and be cheaper than £5bn scheme, says former home secretary guardian.co.uk, Tuesday 28 April 2009 Scrap ID cards plan, says David Blunkett Passports with biometric data would do same job and be cheaper than £5bn scheme, says former home secretary David Blunkett, the former home secretary, believes the government should scrap plans to introduce ID cards for all, in favour of mandatory biometric passports, it was reported today. According to the BBC, the MP for Sheffield Brightside said at the InfoSec 2009 security conference, in London, that biometric passports could do the job and that he had put the idea to the home secretary, Jacqui Smith. The proposal represents a significant U-turn for the MP who first mooted the idea of ID cards when he was home secretary in 2001. Asked whether ID cards could be dropped, Blunkett told the BBC: "I think it is possible to mandate biometric passports. Most people already have a passport but they might want something more convenient to carry around than the current passport and may be able to have it as a piece of plastic for an extra cost." Using existing databases to hold the same information already gathered to issue passports could be a way of allaying fears over a new "database of information", one of the key criticisms of the ID scheme. "People don't worry about the Passport Agency but they do worry about some mythical identity database," he said. Last month the home secretary said government plans for introducing ID cards were "on track". But as the recession puts the squeeze on government spending, there have been suggestions that the scheme, which, it is estimated, will cost £5bn, could be dropped. Mandatory biometric passports would be considerably cheaper, Blunkett claimed. "Most of the cost is borne by the person purchasing the passport." The government began issuing passports containing biometric information in March 2006. David Cameron, the Tory leader, has already suggested ID cards would be scrapped if his party won power in the general election. From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Fri May 1 07:50:37 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Fri, 1 May 2009 03:20:37 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Paying billions for our database state Message-ID: <65be9bf40904301920t3996a40dj2f1a5ef91e3aa298@mail.gmail.com> http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/henryporter/2009/apr/24/database-state-surveillance It is cost rather than privacy concerns that will save us from Labour's megalomaniac surveillance schemes – a point underlined this morning when David Cameron was interviewed on the Today programme. With the vast choice of public expenditure open to him, he would single out only the identity card scheme and the children's database ContactPoint as definite targets for immediate cuts. There are many more savings to be made. Earlier this year, I and a couple of researchers started to calculate the costs of the database state and came up with a total of about £35bn from published figures. The Rowntree Trust followed with a report that claimed that £16bn was spent each year on IT schemes and that spending plans over the next five years amounted to £100bn. So we are talking very big figures indeed, although no one really knows how much the surveillance state will cost. When you confront civil servants like Sir David Varney who is in charge of the transformational government project, which will make all information about individuals available to all departments and agencies, they say that the savings will pay for the scheme. But recent investigations by the Times and Computer Weekly showed that the overrun on large-scale IT projects totals £18.6bn. For instance, the cost of the NHS Spine – a controversial plan to computerise all patients' records – has risen from £2.3bn in three years to £12.7bn, and the system still is not working. Here are some figures: ContactPoint The projected cost of the database, which will contain the personal details of every child of school age in the UK, is £224m with operating costs of £41m per annum over 10 years. The total cost of ContactPoint is £634m. ID Cards and national identity register A report in June 2005 from the London School of Economics predicted that the ID card scheme would cost in total between £10.6bn and £19.2bn over 10 years. The original Home Office estimate was £3.1bn. The official figure was revised up and down to £5.4bn and £4.5bn. The difficulty with the ID card scheme is working what the Home Office has passed on to other ministries and what costs it is hiding. Most estimates outside the government believe the final bill to be somewhere between £10bn and £11bn. e-Borders The e-Borders scheme will monitor everyone crossing UK borders. Those leaving the country will be expected to supply up to 53 pieces of information to the government. The estimated cost over the next decade is £1.2bn. Costs to the UK travel industry for the same period, which are expected to be passed onto the travelling public, are £360m. Therefore costs to the taxpayer and indirectly to the public equal about £1.5bn. Again this is unlikely to be the final story, especially when you consider that £650m alone was earmarked for the Raytheon Systems over the next 10 years. As yet there is no publicised estimate for the spy centre at Wythenshawe, which will track all our movements. Known costs are about £1.5bn. Interception modernisation programme Proposed in the communications data bill, the IMP will store data from every text, phone call, email and internet connection. The costs of the data silo are estimated at £12bn, although the Home Office has suggested it might be run in the private sector. Experience suggests this is unlikely to cut costs and that the security of the system would be compromised. Estimated cost: £12bn. Automatic number recognition camera network This system tracks, records and stores the details of all journeys undertaken on major roads and through city centres. The information is stored for five years. In 2007 this was said to have costs £32.5bn in funding with a further £10m since then; a total of £2m per annum is spent. The final bill over five years is £52m. NHS spine This is a computerised system linking health records. Estimated cost: £12.2bn. Some important points: first, a lot of this money is being spent with foreign systems companies; second, the government has never produced a global figure for the surveillance state; third, there are no estimates of the vast amounts of money being wasted locally, for instance on CCTV schemes, which are held by police officers and the House of Lords to have little effect on crime reduction. If people with knowledge of the economics of surveillance are reading this, they may like to help to refine the bill. From indersalim at gmail.com Fri May 1 10:30:11 2009 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Fri, 1 May 2009 10:30:11 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: The Mango Tree In-Reply-To: <97149.93192.qm@web94706.mail.in2.yahoo.com> References: <97149.93192.qm@web94706.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70904302200m2e9bfa13p127e05ad9e3626aa@mail.gmail.com> Dear Sengupta thanks for comments true, it is about market, and about some new systems to emerge..... after all the politics is about solving this distribution problem right now it is not working, perhpas, we are interested in mango only, not its mangoness, just next to the Mango tree , there is a white sweet mulberry tree. mostly birds enjoy its corp, and i see everybody is health, and there is no distribution problem, it is only with human being, neither we can become birds nor human being in essence. so there has to be subjectivity in place to handle the object, here the product. now how will you resolve the problems created by big landlords who are living in metro across the world but their ancestral orchids are managed by their employees back home. How is equal distribution possible if there is no rethinking about why there is Mr. A who owns the entire fruit simply because his predecessors had a chance to own the large mountain or so, and now there will be continuity of the same for ten thousand years, who is robbing the chances for human being to become sensible, is it not the Baniya ( the capitalist ) in disguise or otherwise, my mother would tell me a bed time story, when there was fight for a bread between two monkeys , and with the appointment of a Bear becomes a judge, how it becomes worse, who divides the bread unequally every time, and takes away the heavier part, with an eye to make more heavier on the other side of the balance.The balancing part was of course taken by Bear himself, and in the end the bread disappeared without any benefit to monkeys right now we all are monkeys and are content with a Judge Bear who his own axe to grind, love and regard inder salim On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 7:58 PM, subhrodip sengupta wrote: > Just would like to elaborate or correct myself on the distribution problem, fruits means fruits for whom for the labour, for the Landowner or farmer, who invests and is labourer as well in many cases or the general people, and if fruits need must be divided in what ratio? Qualitatively who adds to the fruit should get something in return as well so that he is made as happy, not as staring at others having it, makes some sense, or is it only when we are considering few people owning scarce lands and more scarce trees? In what ratios, do passer-byes get fruits on the ground, good ones, and why or on what ground is this political arrangement made, are they still happy, > Hopefully some more thought in this fashion, which I hope is not too abstract, on the hidden conditions, might help. Espicially from more enlightened minds! >     Regards, >              Subhrodip. > > > > > ________________________________ > From: subhrodip sengupta > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > Sent: Thursday, 30 April, 2009 7:43:17 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fw: The Mango Tree > > > Dear Kshmendra, >             Thank you for your Generous remarks, and enlightening views on this post(no sourness intended!). Now I too find some dynamism from the original discussion that has developed to your 'Where in .... are people free to eat (any fruit) from their trees on the road side?' 'people means anyone and everyone'. Quite illuminating if we find some healthy way out. I do not know about apricots and Kashmir, but in Himachal Pradesh's dominant apple growing areas, one is not allowed to break an apple from the owner's tree, but if a fruit falls on the ground, passers by (not necessarily tourists alone) can keep it. Off course it implies that apple yeild is in abundance there or else why should a fruit fall on the ground, unattended? Following surplus maximisaon, dimminishing returns, one gets to fruits harvested at sub-optimal time, but what if there is abbundance, prices falling to 7-8 rs a kilo? Is this possible given the pressures on the >  envoirnment? If yes, then HP might throw some light! >               Regards, >                       Subhrodip. > > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Kshmendra Kaul > To: Readers list Yousuf Sarai. ; subhrodip sengupta > Sent: Thursday, 30 April, 2009 4:28:42 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fw: The Mango Tree > > > Dear Subhrodip > > First an admission. After my last post to you, I realised that the manner in which I seemed to making generalisations about Pakistanis was as disgusting and unacceptable as Inder's generalisation about "baniyas". > > I am chastised. Have to sort myself out. > > I continue to be fascinated by the manner in which you construct your posts. I am not used to this style even though my own daughter writes in a similar fashion when she is trying to educate me on some topic. She loses me. My limitations. > > I think I did get some sense of what you were saying. > > Kshmendra > > --- On Thu, 4/30/09, subhrodip sengupta wrote: > > From: subhrodip sengupta > Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: The Mango Tree > To: "Readers list Yousuf Sarai." > Date: Thursday, April 30, 2009, 12:40 PM > > > ----- Forwarded Message ---- > From: subhrodip sengupta > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > Sent: Thursday, 30 April, 2009 12:35:20 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Mango Tree > > > Dear Kshmendra, >                thans for your well-sorted out response, indeed > making caste of society fight against each other > wouldnt put an end to the tendancies which we are critiqing, neither would > nation-chauvinist attitude help, whatever qualm I might have with my neighbour, > I would not implant a bomb in his territory, that would harm many others,(who > knows, including kids of my family?), but somewhere within the motions of the > society, do we find tendencies, dominant ones, once subscibed to by a certain > caste, now having spread to many leading such a lifestyle. These then become > 'values', values of deserting ones old parents and going abroad, values > ofstaying away from ones family for days together, or other values not > necessarily concerned with this such as late night partying, rave-partying etc.. > For some it is inevitable, irresistable, to quote one of the leaders 'sar > char kar bole' to othe it becomes intolerable, and infringing into their > peace of mind, so that they decide to step ahead and do something about it! When > there is a miniature genocide, some look at it as a >  miniature civil war, some even say it is terror sponsored, some say it > challenges the integrity of nation as they take sides of police, and > consciously or otherwise favour the vested interests ehom the regime, I should > say alas was favouring consciously, some others say it was a Genocide. The > questions involved are those of scales, values, and whoch motions does one > identify using those values. Some values of the Baniyas has been kept alive in > the mordern, indeed many ofhrough a our indegenous businessmen are caste > biased, and they'll take you a story of rishtadari, thiugh they may not even > trace back the long chain, what they mean is Jati, or may be sharing the same > gotra, though the latter is rarely the case. As Inder has noted, I am greatful > that he did, I would like to go a bitt off his analysis which I find a > bit spiritualstic, I would rather, sourly(like an unripe mango) say these > tendencies materialise, but again jati-system did some >  harshness to the women, so knowing the 'spirits' of by fellow people, > I would not like to provide a deterministic tone, progeny being a vital factor > in the villages, 'Ok am a baniya, my forefathers thought like this, I must > share the same thoughts!' Sometimes by using strange words you may force > somebody to think, when you deny certain values in your speeches, you force > people to recognise rergressive tendancies, when you swear to cut the hands of > people who disturb members of your community, or that police tortured you saying > your mom is a muslim, you are reminding people of counter communal tendancies, > and the nature of secularism, from it's positive dictionary > meaning,to secular governments intent(implications), why is it silent to your > people, people, to whom we are communicating do have their own abilty to judge > things, they do know, who this policeman is, better than many of us who stay in > AC rooms and rely on mainly influential contacts to get >  the slightest works done, and they do decide based on their own judgement, > values and interests, whether they want to live together or fight, whom to > support and to what extent, when SSC results are not published before elections, > I do see some arrangement in that independant fair function of the soverign > state too, and thats why I often quote these elections in most places are a > struggle for the nation not for it's people, for people would include into > similar class people whom you do not like, and would be negative towards, thats > where excessive Nation Chauvinism, calling Pakistani gives a value judgement of > whatg you think about them, doesnt strongly bother me for I do not spend > sleepless nights thinking about democracy or SWAT valley issues either, but > might rightly bother some muslim brothers as some hindu brothers get bothered > when they find a hindu in Pakistan in distress.  And yes, when values need to > be changed they need to be uprooted, >  isolated from the value system, so that they do not come back due to any > accident, yes in this ecological or say eco-feminist challenge to such practises > under Capitalist farming, we are reminded of many other adulterations from > injections to colours to our well loved leaves (saags) to baingans, and pumpkins > to our coloured potatoes, of how we do not know to jugje vegatbles, but turn > essentially fetish, I also share my angush in which restaurants serve salads, ok > some of them. The question then is about realising that such practises exist and > to resist them ,not resist or fight against each other. THE idea is to influence > and persuade people dominated by some practises not to do so, to uproot such > values so that contertendancies do nor revrse them I call this phenomenon > Majburi, the Object was a Mango, and how many of us again started fighting over > it, People are instrinctively too chauvinist to correct themselves and this > relates to how efficient one >  is, this applies to feudal ruling classes. When someone talks of Singur or > Nandigram (polar issues), I do not feel ashamed, well MY dad is neither a a > supprter of Sir Tata nor is he Tata himself, nor was I responsible to any > big extent(so that epole do not crowd me for being insensitive) for the rape of > this girl. One has to know why the other person is behaving thus, may be he is > wrong, may be he is right! Else the idea of kin-pride, Nationalism etc is only > to justify power and hiding the potent evil in their garbs, when some > disturbance disarrays these evils, chaos starts which need to be Justified, but > Alas can not be always! >        By the way does one know who the author of this passage is? IF > somebody can get me the answer, I'd be greatful. > thanks for reading(open ended) > > > > ________________________________ > From: Kshmendra Kaul > To: subhrodip sengupta > Cc: Readers list Yousuf Sarai. > Sent: Wednesday, 29 April, 2009 3:10:45 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Mango Tree > > > Dear Subhrodip > > Sir! > > 1. May I first tell you how fascinated I am by the manner in which you > (usually) construct your mails. > > 2. If typecasting a group / community with negative attributes is alright in > any one case, then it has to be alright in every case. Such putting into > compartments is very useful if the intention is to attack.. It is > counterproductive if the intent is to understand. > > 3. The reference to Pakistan was made because such an attitude towards the > "Hindu Baniya" used to be ingrained into the psyche of Pakistanis > through their school textbooks. I do not know how it is now. At least the > remanants of that can still be found in their Media (especially TV). And it > would appear amongst some in India too. Do we have to re-inforce them? Should > we? > > 4. Imagine if everyone was liberal with such typecasting. No do not imagine it, > just see it happening all around us day in and day out: > > - Punjabis are this kind of people > - Bengalis are this kind of people > - Kashmiri Pandits are this kind of people > - Kashmiri Muslims are this kind of people > - Communists are this this kind of people > - Capitalists are this kind of people > - and on and on and on > > You can see how such rigid proclamations destroy ....... (open ended) > > Kshmendra > > > --- On Tue, 4/28/09, subhrodip sengupta wrote: > > From: subhrodip sengupta > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Mango Tree > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > Cc: "Readers list Yousuf Sarai." > Date: Tuesday, April 28, 2009, 9:09 PM > > > very true sir, but why give Paki tone to it? There are hindu punjabis, biharis > non-baniyas etc who share the same thing for hindu baniyas, and a second class > to the marwaris. They do and it is well-noted in Hindu literature, I can tell > you  Bibhutibhusan, a bengali. > And can for the sake of not attacking a caste, can we ignore it's tendancy? > Ok, lets take it not that deeply, but strong feeling of author. > > > > ________________________________ > From: Kshmendra Kaul > To: reader-list ; Inder Salim > > Sent: Tuesday, 28 April, 2009 2:56:40 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Mango Tree > > """""" The 70-G-wallay are Baniyas (the > traditional business community) and hence have a natural tendency to think about > their personal benefits only."""""" > > Natural tendency ? Sounds very racist. > > Derogatory remarks about "baniyas" crop up most often on the > Pakistani Media. It is more specific. It is the "Hindu Baniya". It > used be taught that way in Pakistani school textbooks. Do not know if it still > is. > > Kshmendra > > --- On Mon, 4/27/09, Inder Salim wrote: > > From: Inder Salim > Subject: [Reader-list] The Mango Tree > To: "reader-list" > Date: Monday, April 27, 2009, 10:14 PM > > -- > THE MANGO TREE > > The centre of the universe is not the place where I am standing, but > the Mango Tree in front of my balcony. But because of different > seasons its centre of importance shifts,  particularly when there are > no mangoes on its branches.. Almost a decade back, when I shifted into > my flat, there was no such tree over there, but indeed a structure > conducive for the growth of a Mango Tree, or any other tree, was > always there. This space where these small and big trees exist belongs > to the entire colony, a public space,  where people relish their > evening strolls, or let  their children jump a little, and also > scatter biscuit and chocolate wrapper around, carelessly. The Trees > are mostly non-fruity ones, so everything is cool, except this Mango > Tree. > > Right now, the entire colony is talking about this mango tree, but the > flats which are directly facing this mango tree are constantly > thinking about it. I am also looking at the mango tree, but among > other things, what puzzles me is the question why the tree gives birth > to hundreds of mangoes when it does not want its entire crop to grow? > As I notice some little green mangoes keep on falling on the earth, > naturally. Why? It fascinates me. This is perhaps, what we call > mysteries of the nature, so no need to interfere or worry on that > account.  But still there are plenty of mangoes on the tree, and > everybody is silently looking at them, who simply want to eat them.. > But there is some helplessness in their looking at them. > > The reason for this is that the 70-G-wallay (family living in the > Ground floor) happened to water this mango tree sometimes , and now > they have the birth right to harvest the entire crop of this tree. > True, I am witness to that, but I doubt if they  actually  had planted > the tree. I believe, somebody had carelessly thrown a mango kernel > into the park which has given birth to this controversial tree.  The > 70-F-wallay, 70-S- wallay, and 70-T-wallay (families living in First, > Second and Top floor) feel that they too have the right to eat some > mangoes. These families live closer to this tree, but other families > which are facing it too have the similar desire but, I guess the > intensity of the desire to eat these mangoes is directly proportional > to the distance of the eyes that are looking at this mango tree. > > The trouble is that the 70-G-wallay leave no stone unturned to ensure > that the mango tree is under their control during the crop time. They > don’t even let a singing bulbul, or a peaceful dove, let alone stray > colony monkeys to come near this mango tree.    They use all the ways > and means to keep the other away from the reach of this tree.  They > must have even counted the number of mangoes on the tree which are > still unripe, quite green but distinguishable from the green of its > foliage. The 70-G-wallay are Baniyas (the traditional business > community) and hence have a natural tendency to think about their > personal benefits only. I must say, with some confidence, that such > families are the predecessor families of the entire world capitalism, > like monkey is known as the predecessor of the man.. A limited thought, > but business is usually created to be inherited by their successors, > usually sons. So, there is a tradition, to own the factory, an orchid, > an oil well etc..  Right now, here in this colony, there are people who > want the entire mango tree to be felled since they don’t get their > share of mangoes, but there are people who are content with the idea > of a tree alone. Although, the later category of people are quite in > minority but they are happy that there is a place for a dove to make a > nest, or twig for a squirrel  to jump from this tree to another tree. > > > Yes, some children from outside,  say from other underprivileged > families, whom I guess have never tasted a mango in their life, do > come and try to steal a mango or two from this tree  by throwing a > stone or a small stick.. The 70-G-Wallay quickly come out from their > flat and use all kinds of popular vernacular to chase them away.. The > rest of families again remain silent, who otherwise would not like > these outside children to venture into the protected colony, where I > too happen to own a flat. > > The result is that every year, the 70-G-wallay harvest the unripe crop > lest it might be shared or stolen by others. The entire unripe-unripe > crop is harvested, because the fear of losing the crop intensifies > with the passing of each day, which is just good enough for  ordinary > pickle at the best.. The real mangos never see the light of the day. > > I don’t about the whole world, but in India, the nature of business is > such that the entire crop of Mangoes is usually plucked from the > branches while it is still growing, still green. The golden fruit > becomes golden only in the dark rooms of Mandi (Fruit markets) where > they are dumped for couple of days, or weeks, to hit the stalls on the > very day they turn golden, golden red or golden green.  Who knows if > some chemicals are injected into the mangoes to give them a more > golden look, or make turn them even tastier? After all we are lured by > products which are masked, glossed, either on TV, cinema, or in the > Malls, or in the life directly. After all, the idea of mango is > usually smarter than the actual mango. > > But there are spaces where Mangoes are allowed to turn golden on the > trees itself, and subsequently relished with their maximum sugar and > vitamin levels. But, as we know that is outside the structure of > business and people like 70-G-wallay don’t have a clue about that. So, > has anybody ever tasted a real mango? > > The question is that there is just one mango tree, and thousands of > eyes on its couple of hundred odd mangoes on the tree. Right now, the > people like 70-G-wallay who control the production of plant don’t let > the mangos grow naturally. So they too have not tasted a mango, and > neither let others to taste a real ripe one. > > So  has anybody tasted a real mango, if there is one, and if yes, who > deserves to eat that, and relish? > > please press to see mangoes > http://pics.livejournal.com/indersalim/pic/000hz44h/ > > With love > Inder salim > > > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai..net with subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > ________________________________ > Now surf faster and smarter ! Check out the new Firefox 3 - Yahoo! Edition * > Click here! > > ________________________________ > From Chandigarh to Chennai - find friends all over India. Click here. > > >      Own a website.Get an unlimited package.Pay next to nothing.*Go to > http://in.business.yahoo.com/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > ________________________________ > Now surf faster and smarter ! Check out the new Firefox 3 - Yahoo! Edition * Click here! > > >      Bollywood news, movie reviews, film trailers and more! Go to http://in.movies.yahoo.com/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com Fri May 1 13:01:15 2009 From: rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com (Rajen Uppinangadi) Date: Fri, 1 May 2009 13:01:15 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] cost of the NIC, national wastage system. Message-ID: <61164a90905010031v4f665212j346e6dd7502d6d0@mail.gmail.com> Dear Taha, as I was reading your post, memories took me back in time to a small village in Dakshina Kannada district, Karnataka State.The place is a small village with about 12,000 population and is surrounded by river on three sides and hillock on the other side. The road is just across but without bridge, the villagers have to go a long way on hillock, climb down and reach after detour of about 15 kms as against just few yards. In the then period of governance, the MP ws the same, every time during the elections he would promise the bridge only to forget about it later. Even boycott of elections had no desiring effect. Then came the young iniative, one group of youth who were working for the Lamina spring factory, took the matter to identify the worst villages in the district on different parametres. By this time, the MP perhaps wanted to show that he is doing "something" about the bridge. But no, the tender process and the estimation process took all the funds allotted for the bridge that year, all came to nothing. Rainy season in Coastal Karnataka is an experience for all, and the youth group decided to do something concrete about the bridge, they had discussions with villages, pooled money of about 2 lakhs, bought the cables, springs and made the cable stayed bridge of 5 feet width, thus connecting the village to the main road, and moral of the story is the MP after loosing the elections that year could not recover till today, but has contested again this time.! Citizens today want the performers and not the politics of hate or appeasement but only good governance. Regards, Rajen. From anivar.aravind at gmail.com Fri May 1 14:34:22 2009 From: anivar.aravind at gmail.com (Anivar Aravind) Date: Fri, 1 May 2009 14:34:22 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] First anniversary of Binayaksen.net : a year of Campaigning Message-ID: <35f96d470905010204o5cf9c966p3193ff6f7e7df177@mail.gmail.com> Dear Friends, Binayaksen.net completes 1 Year of its Campaigning for the Dr. Binayak Sen'e release . Please see the anniversary post at http://www.binayaksen.net/2009/05/first-anniversary/ ~ Regards Anivar Hum Dekhenge, Woh Din Ke Jiska Wada Hei, Hum Dekhenge………. http://www.binayaksen.net/2009/05/first-anniversary/ Posted at May 1, 2009 1 May 2009 will mark the first anniversary of binayaksen.net. The site was born last year amidst an unprecedented surge of citizen activism worldwide calling for the release of Dr Binayak Sen, incarcerated on false charges in a Raipur jail since 14 May 2007. Nobel laureates, medical professionals, academics ,journalists, human rights and health activists , students , workers, rural folk – the sheer range of people who have got involved in this epic struggle to challenge the injustice done to Dr Sen - and through him to all of us- has been truly phenomenal. The forms of struggle adopted also have been diverse – there have been street rallies, satyagrahas, signature campaigns, seminars, public lectures, medical camps, soliciting of media coverage and representations to Indian state officials at various levels. As a platform binayaksen.net , along with several othersimilarsites, was meant to help all those interested, to follow the course of protest, debate, the farcical trial in Raipur and media coverage of Dr Sen’s case. . In this we have, with varying degrees of efficiency, succeeded in our modest mission. What we have not succeeded in achieving, along with our fellow activists in India and around the world, is of course securing the actual release of Dr Sen- and in that sense the past year has been one of repeated disappointments too. Not only has he been arrested on trumped up charges and subjected to a painfully slow trial in an allegedly ‘fast track court’, he has also been repeatedly denied bail and in recent weeks even his right to medical treatment at a facility of his choice in the country. What we are confronting through the case of Dr Sen is really the Indian Establishment at its brutal worst- where its contempt for democratic norms is openly visible for the entire world to see. It has indeed been a great lesson to many in the way Indian democracy itself really operates when it comes to dealing with people who threaten this country’s deeply exploitative system- masked as it is by the noisy circus of regular elections, bureaucratic procedures of law and the exercise of superficial freedoms. The worldwide efforts for Dr Sen’s release have not been in vain of course for in these two years he has also transformed into a universal symbol of both the triumphs and travails a person of conscience inevitably goes through in any part of our planet. The legions of those who never knew Dr Sen before his arrest, have never ever met him and yet are passionately involved in the fight for his release is indicative of how the mere iron bars of the prison his captors have put him behind can never contain the message of personal integrity, public service and steadfast opposition to social injustice he represents. So on our first anniversary and as we approach 14 May 2009, we sincerely hope that the people around the globe, just like last year and in even greater measure, will once again take to the streets demanding Dr Sen’s immediate release. And do so- if we may suggest- with these immortal words of Faiz Ahmed Faiz , as sung by Iqbal Bano , South Asia’s queen of ghazals - on their lips: *‘‘Hum Dekhenge, Woh Din Ke Jiska Wada Hei, Hum Dekhenge……….”(We shall witness, Certainly we, too shall witness that day, That has been promised to us….)* -- Free Binayak Sen campaign http://binayaksen.net Follow Us on Twitter: http://twitter.com/binayaksen Follow feed: http://feeds.binayaksen.net/binayaksen Mobile version: http://m.binayaksen.net "The resources of the world are for us all to share. Let us affirm our faith in that common cause" - Dr. Ilina Sen From rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com Fri May 1 14:42:05 2009 From: rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com (Rajen Uppinangadi) Date: Fri, 1 May 2009 14:42:05 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] victims must get justice, get the succor to start the life again from the scratch. Message-ID: <61164a90905010212i5b3e7328g6e595456dcd50bbd@mail.gmail.com> Dear all, It was not very amusing to see the tv anchors analysing the supreme court decision in Gujarath riots and train burning in terms of victory for Theesta or Modi. How insensitive the tv channels have become to common concern of citizens in their persuit of sensation was also evident. Let me start from the basic premises, that every victim irrespective of his faith, being the victim of violence arising out of terror acts, rioys, and mob violence must get justice and rule of laws should take firm action irrespective of which party the perpetrators belong to, because these acts of violence only give rise to more of violence unless rule of law and judiciary acts like a good governing system of prosecution and justice must be delivered without much delay. Having said that, Theesta has again proved to be damp squid when it comes to demonising the judiciary of Gujarath, system of govenance of gujarath, her hate for narendra Modi has only given rise to more hate for her agenda of communal approach. If only Theesta wanted to help victims of any violence irrespective of their faith, she would have gained more acceptance in the society. Her very action of defending the accused in Mumbai blasts, who were of one particular faith, has made her communal, as inthe mumbai blast cases five accused who were convicted were also from customs department, whom she did not defend or made any efforts to defend, because they were not muslims.? Media lives on thriving human miseries and coverages of such miseries is well known, but it does not raise even little finger to part with profits it rakes in this business of news to the deserving, be that may, it is good that Supreme court has atlast upheld the role of high court of gujarath and impartiality of the judicial officers. While that being so, it is a matter of wonder that judges have no moral courage to take up the issue of corrupt judges in their midst, who are hesitant to declare their assets while in office with flimsy excuses. Perhaps that explains why the high court of delhi gives maximum judicial officers to supreme court.? It is time that the institution of judicial system wake up to reality check as common man on the street does not hold much candle to the judicial officers, but on tv cameras every one says we have confidence in judicial system, perhaps being afraid of the hammer that can fall on them with contempt .? So many riots have taken place, so many disputes have led to violence, if only judicial system woke up to adjudicate once for all the matters in its jurisdiction without any fear or favour, the violence in the society can positively be turned in to one of harmonious living.When the judgement stands to sound reasoning, no one dares to further vitiate the atmosphere. An average indian needs good governance, good system of justice delivery system where lawyers do not fleece him and deny justice, this is possible only when the judge takes a firm stand on adjournments, not giving unwanted stays and injuctions like in bofors case, thus system made to look that law is an ass.Then these very lawyers become exploiters of the litigents and case list just keeps growing. Regards, Rajen. From indersalim at gmail.com Fri May 1 19:17:45 2009 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Fri, 1 May 2009 19:17:45 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Arundhati Roy's interview on BBC Urdu In-Reply-To: <47e122a70905010536r417b5df5p757a8eba264bb035@mail.gmail.com> References: <11301.82961.qm@web53601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <79226.40068.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <47e122a70905010536r417b5df5p757a8eba264bb035@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70905010647i5cd17fc5qcefd1cd57dfa561f@mail.gmail.com> Dear Kshmendra waiting for the full translation, till then please press to read http://singularitease.blogspot.com/ for your interesting comments , as usual love is On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 8:41 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Rahul > > There are limits to intellect and consequently the heights one can achieve. There is no such limitation on idiocy of the kind exemplified by "Blowback" Arundhati Roy. > > If I can find time over the next few days, I will try and prepare an English transcript of this interview. > > For now, typical of her and her kind of people who advocate 'destroy' without having an answer for 'what after that', here is an excerpt from the ending of the interview after she has badmouthed Democracy  in India. > > Q: What should be done? These are the only two options, either Dictatorship or Democracy. Where else can one hope for according to you? > > Arundhati: I do not have any solution. I do not know what lIfe after Democracy will be, but I feel organically something .... something will happen because the fabric is tearing > > Kshmendra > > > > --- On Thu, 4/30/09, Rahul Asthana wrote: > > From: Rahul Asthana > Subject: [Reader-list] Arundhati Roy's interview on BBC Urdu > To: "Sarai Reader List" > Date: Thursday, April 30, 2009, 7:28 PM > > Hi All, > Please find the link to Arundhanti's interview,from probably under the rock > where she has been living. > http://www.bbc.co.uk/urdu/multimedia/2009/04/090428_arundhati_wusat_uk.shtml > > Thanks > Rahul > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From anansi1 at earthlink.net Fri May 1 20:16:49 2009 From: anansi1 at earthlink.net (Paul D. Miller) Date: Fri, 1 May 2009 10:46:49 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [Reader-list] On The Globalization of Disease Message-ID: <18347431.1241189210356.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net> How to argue with an observation that "A misplaced priority on profits over human health in the context of a globalized world led to this epidemic and its possibilities becoming the world's latest pandemic..." Paul Mexico's Swine Flu and the Globalization of Disease Laura Carlsen Americas MexicoBlog http://americasmexico.blogspot.com/2009/04/mexicos-swine-flu-and-globalization-of.html Mexico has long been considered the laboratory of globalization. Now a potentially deadly virus has germinated in that laboratory, finding ideal conditions to move quickly along a path toward global pandemic. Those conditions include: a rapid transition from small livestock production to industrial meat farms after NAFTA established incentives for foreign investment, the failed decentralization of Mexico's health system along lines established by multilateral lending banks, lax and non-enforced environmental and health regulations as the Mexican government was forced to downsize, the increased flow of goods and persons across borders, and restricted access to life-saving medicines due to NAFTA intellectual property monopolies for pharmaceutical companies. Mexico under Medical Siege The swine flu alert in Mexico rose to a level four this week, meaning that it is spreading human-to-human and shows a significant increase in the risk of becoming a pandemic. Schools are closed until at least May 6. The Mexico City government shut down the city's 35,000 restaurants on Monday. Countries including Canada, Argentina, and several European nations have cancelled flights between Mexico in an effort to contain the spread of the new flu, although Keiji Fukuda of the WHO noted, 'closing borders or restricting travel has really little effect in stopping the movement of this virus' now that cases are appearing across the globe. Here in Mexico City, all public events have been cancelled and people have flocked to the supermarkets in surgical masks to stock up on food. I had to go out yesterday and discovered less traffic (small consolation) but a fairly normal number of people in the streets, many wearing the recommended masks. Traditional practices of greeting each other with kisses and handshakes have been suspended and a cough is seen as tantamount to assault. But I didn't feel an atmosphere of panic. Mexicans seem to have accepted the epidemic and changes in their lives with a combination of cultural fatalism and survival instincts although many are skeptical of the government's claims and the measures taken. The media has been providing a steady stream of real and generally non-alarmist information out about the risks. The flu is a mutant form of swine flu, human seasonal flu and bird flu. In itself, it is not lethal but it leads to complications of 'atypical pneumonia'. It's atypical because it's out of season and because victims tend to concentrate in the middle age range. Unlike regular pneumonia that picks off the very young and the very old, deaths of this virus tend to be within the 20-40 range. No-one seems to know exactly why this is. In fact, it is the newness of the virus that has raised the alarm. It can be treated successfully with anti-virals but there is no vaccine for it. The strategy is to avoid enclosed spaces with large numbers of people. Although people are obeying the measures and following recommendations, increasing doubts exist about the transparency and honesty of government information. A press conference by the Secretaries of Health and Labor on April 29 ended in chaos, with reporters yelling out questions to clear up contradictions between the official version that only 26 cases of swine flu had been confirmed in Mexico and reports of far greater numbers. Swine Flu and the Smithfield Connection Because of the population density of Mexico City it continues to be the center of the epidemic. Of the seven deaths from swine flu confirmed by the Mexican government and the WHO, all were in Mexico City-six in the delegation where we live. However, the first reports came from Perote, Veracruz-- home to a huge hog farm co-owned and operated by the U.S. transnational industrial livestock company Smithfield and a Mexican company. In early March, local health officials proclaimed an epidemiological alert due to a flu with the exact same characteristics. La Jornada reported that Perote officials claimed 60% of the population suffered from flu, pneumonia and bronchitis. Federal health officials reportedly ignored the complaints until April 5, when they placed sanitary restrictions on Carroll Farms. Mexico's Secretary of Health Jose Angel Cordova discarded the theory that the flu originated in the hog farms of Perote. But the information provided led to more confusion than clarity about that. This needs to be independently and seriously analyzed because the fact remains that the people in Perote show high indices of similar and unexplained illnesses and the government information is partial and inconclusive. Silvia Ribeiro of the ETC Group told the Americas Program that Mexican officials 'act like this is something that fell from the sky, but we've known for a long time that industrial livestock operations, especially hogs, are a breeding ground for recombinant viruses. Carroll Farms is just one example, an important one in this case, but it's also true of industrial chicken farms.' Anybody who has seen an industrial hog farm knows the risk of disease. The unimaginable concentrations of filth, corrals filled with sick and suffering animals pumped full of antibiotics, and buzzing with flies that then carry disease to the human population create a disease paradise. As Mike Davis points out, 'The paradox of this swine flu panic is that, while totally unexpected, it was accurately predicted. Six years ago, Science dedicated a major story to evidence that "after years of stability, the North American swine flu virus has jumped onto an evolutionary fast track". NAFTA unleashed the spread of industrial livestock farms in Mexico by creating investment incentives for transnational companies to relocate operations there. The 'race to the bottom' -- where companies move production to areas where environmental and health restrictions and enforcement are low, is exemplified in livestock farming. Smithfield has had more than its share of legal problems stemming from its operations in the United States. Most recently it announced a decision to reject a $75 million dollar settlement on claims brought in Missouri by residents complaining of the stench. On August 8, 1997 a federal court judge in Virginia imposed a $12.6 million fine on Smithfield Foods for violation of the Clean Water Act. In September of 1999 an appeal upheld the ruling. In 1994, the year NAFTA went into effect, Smithfield established the Perote operations with the Mexican agrobusiness AMSA (Agroindustrias Unidas de México S.A. de C.V.). In 1999 it bought the U.S. company Carroll's Foods for $500 million and began rapid expanision of its operations in Perote. Banking on Disease Livestock transnationals are not the only economic interests involved in preserving the dangerous situation that led to this epidemic. In an article entitled 'An epidemic of profiteering', she notes that the epidemic means big business for the pharmaceutical companies who hold patents on anti-viral medicines. 'Shares in Gilead rose 3%, Roche 4% and Glaxo 6%, and that's only the beginning.' Also to blame is neoliberal globalization and its impact on human health. Ribeiro has in interesting theory on why Mexico City is the focal point of the virus. 'People living in the city--and in a way the city itself--suffer from a depressed immunological system. Especially for the poor, the lack of public services, water and health services, stress and poor nutrition means that people die not only from increased contagion but also from low defenses here.' Mexico's grand experiment in sink or swim neoliberalism included privatization and erosion of health systems and basic services. Mexican health policy expert Gustavo Leal told the CIP Americas Program that 'the notorious delay in the response of the federal government can be attributed in part to the decentralization of healthcare promoted by international finance institutions such as the World Bank. 'This broke down the chain of command and the flow of information,' Leal said. Tellingly, the health care network that has responded most vigorously to the Mexican swine flu epidemic has been the Mexican Social Security Institute (IMSS), an institute that conservatives and the same IFIs have been trying to privatize for years. Armies of IMSS healthcare professionals are attending to cases and reporting from the field throughout the country. SPP: Integrated Risk Management or Integrated Risks? It's ironic and inexcusable that the most integrated region in the world responded so poorly to the recent epidemic. One of the main selling points for the extension of NAFTA into the Security and Prosperity Partnership (SPP) was that a working group was preparing integrated response to epidemics that would make all North Americans safer. In fact, this was one of the few publically announced activities of the secretive working groups that primarily devote their activities to making it easier for the Smithfields and Tysons to do business throughout the continent. The SPP North American Plan declares that it provides a framework to accomplish the following: * Detect, contain and control an avian influenza outbreak and prevent transmission to humans; * Prevent or slow the entry of a new strain of human influenza into North America; * Minimize illness and deaths; and * Sustain infrastructure and mitigate the impact to the economy and the functioning of society The Plan supposedly established mechanisms to coordinate actions, monitor outbreaks, and supervise animal farms. Mexico despite being a poor country with greater risk of disease, had not received the technology needed to immediately analyze flu strains so had to send samples to the Canadian Health Ministry and the Center for Disease Control (CDC) in Atlanta for analysis. About a week was lost in this process. Moreover, as mentioned the CDC didn't respond quickly or effectively. Where was this plan when Perote was reporting illness and a local epidemic way back in March? Has this group done serious research on the risks of industrial livestock production? Why did the CDC take nearly a week to respond to reports of the Mexican epidemic? The answers lie in what Davis refers to as the 'global political clout' of the livestock transnationals. Another hint can be found in this phrase from the SPP announcement: 'Central to the Plan is a North American approach that undertakes measures to maintain the flow of people, services, and cargo across the borders during a severe pandemic while striving to protect our citizens.' As is the case with all of NAFTA, the top priority is business as usual. While closing the borders is not the answer, an investigation into the root causes of the epidemic must lead to a full accounting of the risks of globalization and industrial farming. Poor countries with poor health run the greatest risks and yet the current system gives their concerns short shrift and little resources. A misplaced priority on profits over human health in the context of a globalized world led to this epidemic and its possibilities becoming the world's latest pandemic. For More Information: * How the NAFTA Flu Exploded (Al Giordano, 29/04/09) http://www.narconews.com/Issue57/article3512.html * Swine flu, border security and public priorities (Kent Paterson, 28/04/09) http://www.newspapertree.com/opinion/3738-swine- flu-border-security-and-public-priorities * Swine- flu outbreak could be linked to Smithfield factory farms (Tom Philpot, 25/04/09) http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-25-swine-flu- smithfield From c.anupam at gmail.com Fri May 1 20:40:20 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Fri, 1 May 2009 20:40:20 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] victims must get justice, get the succor to start the life again from the scratch. In-Reply-To: <61164a90905010212i5b3e7328g6e595456dcd50bbd@mail.gmail.com> References: <61164a90905010212i5b3e7328g6e595456dcd50bbd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00905010810h7b9483e5i2785fd47bee863c0@mail.gmail.com> Rajen, How do you decide that Teesta or any one who is working on the issues of justice to the riot victims have no or less acceptance in the society? How many times have u visited Godhra or even Modassa or Gulbarg society? Have you walked down an alley in Polan Bazar in Godhara or seen how Ganesh visarjan riots take place? Do you even know where is Modassa, where colonies have been seperated since 2002, for hindus and muslims...there is border in that town -- which divides them into two halves. are u talking about this kind of communal harmony? Have you heard about K.G. Park and Noorani Mohalla in Vadodara, where hundreds of riot affected muslim families stay with no roads or water facilities? Talking about unwarranted modi bashing -- do u know Satish Mishra, whose wife got burnt in the godhra train burning incident on February 27, 2002? Do you how in modi government's official records, Mishra's wife is still missing? Do you know not a single rupee was given as compensation to Mishra -- who was in SSG hospital in Vadodara trying to get treatment and later shifted to a private hospital to save himself because he would have been dead in that government hospital as his relatives from faizabad could not locate him for the next two ... whose wife was termed as a kar sevak by VHP activists without even Mishra's knowledge and her photo hangs in the VHP office of Ahmedabad as one of the martyrs in godhra carnage, while all thoughout her short life, she just took care of her husband and raised a daughter until that day? So easy for you to write something like this and get away with it. What kicks do you get out it? intellectual orgasm...isnt it? Mishra doesnt even know who burnt that train. "it happened so quickly, i did not even see who did that", is his official statement before SIT probing into the incident. his wife was consumed by flames while he jumped out of that fateful train, with 40 % burns, thinking that she was safe. Do you know Naseem shiakh from Delol? her 22 relatives were chopped off in 2002 in Kalol and thrown in the water of Goma river near Godhra while she was in a hospital. the modi administration considered them missing all this while. all these people had to wait for seven years, for the modi administration to declare them as dead, register fresh cases. why do you think Supreme Court has finally transferred these cases to fast track courts? tell me please. i find it very disturbing and problemmatic to find not just you but several people in this reader's list, who quickly post their opinions on the basis media reports ( by media, i just do not mean newspaper and tv channels, but also who feed you with such information) and go about media bashing. here i categorically do not include subuhi's comments on TISS student gang rape case because several tabloids indeed messed it up. i hope we have more real opinions from those who belong to a place where such and such incident has happened and could add a perspective because they were present in such and such places or been there when these incidents happen. Moreover, how does one pass a judgement on media as a whole which is so scattered in its range of opinions that it transmits every minute? if you do, please name them who gives you such information. that helps one to come up with counterview. i am frustrated by the amount of rhetoric that this reader's list doles out every day. When someone writes or posts a genuine piece (as in the case of Inder Salim's the mango tree), it is attacked as if the person is making a gross political violation but kite flying is considered a very well known trick and no one says anything about it. -anupam On 5/1/09, Rajen Uppinangadi wrote: > Dear all, > > It was not very amusing to see the tv anchors analysing the supreme > court decision in Gujarath riots and train burning in terms of victory for > Theesta or Modi. How insensitive the tv channels have become to common > concern of citizens in their persuit of sensation was also evident. > > Let me start from the basic premises, that every victim irrespective of > his faith, being the victim of violence arising out of terror acts, rioys, > and mob violence must get justice and rule of laws should take firm action > irrespective of which party the perpetrators belong to, because these acts > of violence only give rise to more of violence unless rule of law and > judiciary acts like a good governing system of prosecution and justice must > be delivered without much delay. > > Having said that, Theesta has again proved to be damp squid when it comes > to demonising the judiciary of Gujarath, system of govenance of gujarath, > her hate for narendra Modi has only given rise to more hate for her agenda > of communal approach. If only Theesta wanted to help victims of any > violence > irrespective of their faith, she would have gained more acceptance in the > society. Her very action of defending the accused in Mumbai blasts, who > were > of one particular faith, has made her communal, as inthe mumbai blast cases > five accused who were convicted were also from customs department, whom she > did not defend or made any efforts to defend, because they were not > muslims.? > > Media lives on thriving human miseries and coverages of such miseries is > well known, but it does not raise even little finger to part with profits > it > rakes in this business of news to the deserving, be that may, it is good > that Supreme court has atlast upheld the role of high court of gujarath and > impartiality of the judicial officers. While that being so, it is a matter > of wonder that judges have no moral courage to take up the issue of corrupt > judges in their midst, who are hesitant to declare their assets while in > office with flimsy excuses. Perhaps that explains why the high court of > delhi gives maximum judicial officers to supreme court.? > > It is time that the institution of judicial system wake up to reality > check as common man on the street does not hold much candle to the judicial > officers, but on tv cameras every one says we have confidence in judicial > system, perhaps being afraid of the hammer that can fall on them with > contempt .? > > So many riots have taken place, so many disputes have led to violence, if > only judicial system woke up to adjudicate once for all the matters in its > jurisdiction without any fear or favour, the violence in the society can > positively be turned in to one of harmonious living.When the judgement > stands to sound reasoning, no one dares to further vitiate the atmosphere. > An average indian needs good governance, good system of justice delivery > system where lawyers do not fleece him and deny justice, this is possible > only when the judge takes a firm stand on adjournments, not giving unwanted > stays and injuctions like in bofors case, thus system made to look that law > is an ass.Then these very lawyers become exploiters of the litigents and > case list just keeps growing. > > Regards, > > Rajen. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From jasoncrawford at umail.ucsb.edu Fri May 1 21:22:26 2009 From: jasoncrawford at umail.ucsb.edu (Jason J. Crawford) Date: Fri, 01 May 2009 08:52:26 -0700 Subject: [Reader-list] On The Globalization of Disease In-Reply-To: <18347431.1241189210356.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <18347431.1241189210356.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20090501085226.191218l1v9d7betc@webaccess.umail.ucsb.edu> Hi Paul, This is also a good read entitled "The NAFTA Flu" by Robert Wallace, http://farmingpathogens.wordpress.com/2009/04/28/the-nafta-flu/ Wallace points out how transnational agribusiness proliferated the avian bird flu pandemic and is responsible for expediting the hybridization of new influenza pathogens into new sectors of the world. He was also interviewed on Democracy Now! about "The NAFTA flu." http://i4.democracynow.org/2009/4/29/the_nafta_flu - Jason Quoting "Paul D. Miller" : > How to argue with an observation that "A misplaced priority on > profits over human health in the context of a globalized world led > to this epidemic > and its possibilities becoming the world's latest > pandemic..." > > Paul > > > Mexico's Swine Flu and the Globalization of Disease > > Laura Carlsen > Americas MexicoBlog > http://americasmexico.blogspot.com/2009/04/mexicos-swine-flu-and-globalization-of.html > > Mexico has long been considered the laboratory of > globalization. Now a potentially deadly virus has > germinated in that laboratory, finding ideal conditions > to move quickly along a path toward global pandemic. > > Those conditions include: a rapid transition from small > livestock production to industrial meat farms after > NAFTA established incentives for foreign investment, > the failed decentralization of Mexico's health system > along lines established by multilateral lending banks, > lax and non-enforced environmental and health > regulations as the Mexican government was forced to > downsize, the increased flow of goods and persons > across borders, and restricted access to life-saving > medicines due to NAFTA intellectual property monopolies > for pharmaceutical companies. > > Mexico under Medical Siege > > The swine flu alert in Mexico rose to a level four this > week, meaning that it is spreading human-to-human and > shows a significant increase in the risk of becoming a > pandemic. Schools are closed until at least May 6. The > Mexico City government shut down the city's 35,000 > restaurants on Monday. Countries including Canada, > Argentina, and several European nations have cancelled > flights between Mexico in an effort to contain the > spread of the new flu, although Keiji Fukuda of the WHO > noted, 'closing borders or restricting travel has > really little effect in stopping the movement of this > virus' now that cases are appearing across the globe. > > Here in Mexico City, all public events have been > cancelled and people have flocked to the supermarkets > in surgical masks to stock up on food. I had to go out > yesterday and discovered less traffic (small > consolation) but a fairly normal number of people in > the streets, many wearing the recommended masks. > Traditional practices of greeting each other with > kisses and handshakes have been suspended and a cough > is seen as tantamount to assault. > > But I didn't feel an atmosphere of panic. Mexicans seem > to have accepted the epidemic and changes in their > lives with a combination of cultural fatalism and > survival instincts although many are skeptical of the > government's claims and the measures taken. > > The media has been providing a steady stream of real > and generally non-alarmist information out about the > risks. The flu is a mutant form of swine flu, human > seasonal flu and bird flu. In itself, it is not lethal > but it leads to complications of 'atypical pneumonia'. > It's atypical because it's out of season and because > victims tend to concentrate in the middle age range. > Unlike regular pneumonia that picks off the very young > and the very old, deaths of this virus tend to be > within the 20-40 range. No-one seems to know exactly > why this is. In fact, it is the newness of the virus > that has raised the alarm. It can be treated > successfully with anti-virals but there is no vaccine > for it. > > The strategy is to avoid enclosed spaces with large > numbers of people. Although people are obeying the > measures and following recommendations, increasing > doubts exist about the transparency and honesty of > government information. A press conference by the > Secretaries of Health and Labor on April 29 ended in > chaos, with reporters yelling out questions to clear up > contradictions between the official version that only > 26 cases of swine flu had been confirmed in Mexico and > reports of far greater numbers. > > Swine Flu and the Smithfield Connection > > Because of the population density of Mexico City it > continues to be the center of the epidemic. Of the > seven deaths from swine flu confirmed by the Mexican > government and the WHO, all were in Mexico City-six in > the delegation where we live. > > However, the first reports came from Perote, Veracruz-- > home to a huge hog farm co-owned and operated by the > U.S. transnational industrial livestock company > Smithfield and a Mexican company. In early March, local > health officials proclaimed an epidemiological alert > due to a flu with the exact same characteristics. La > Jornada reported that Perote officials claimed 60% of > the population suffered from flu, pneumonia and > bronchitis. Federal health officials reportedly ignored > the complaints until April 5, when they placed sanitary > restrictions on Carroll Farms. Mexico's Secretary of > Health Jose Angel Cordova discarded the theory that the > flu originated in the hog farms of Perote. But the > information provided led to more confusion than clarity > about that. This needs to be independently and > seriously analyzed because the fact remains that the > people in Perote show high indices of similar and > unexplained illnesses and the government information is > partial and inconclusive. > > Silvia Ribeiro of the ETC Group told the Americas > Program that Mexican officials 'act like this is > something that fell from the sky, but we've known for a > long time that industrial livestock operations, > especially hogs, are a breeding ground for recombinant > viruses. Carroll Farms is just one example, an > important one in this case, but it's also true of > industrial chicken farms.' Anybody who has seen an > industrial hog farm knows the risk of disease. The > unimaginable concentrations of filth, corrals filled > with sick and suffering animals pumped full of > antibiotics, and buzzing with flies that then carry > disease to the human population create a disease > paradise. > > As Mike Davis points out, 'The paradox of this swine > flu panic is that, while totally unexpected, it was > accurately predicted. Six years ago, Science dedicated > a major story to evidence that "after years of > stability, the North American swine flu virus has > jumped onto an evolutionary fast track". > > NAFTA unleashed the spread of industrial livestock > farms in Mexico by creating investment incentives for > transnational companies to relocate operations there. > The 'race to the bottom' -- where companies move > production to areas where environmental and health > restrictions and enforcement are low, is exemplified in > livestock farming. > > Smithfield has had more than its share of legal > problems stemming from its operations in the United > States. Most recently it announced a decision to reject > a $75 million dollar settlement on claims brought in > Missouri by residents complaining of the stench. On > August 8, 1997 a federal court judge in Virginia > imposed a $12.6 million fine on Smithfield Foods for > violation of the Clean Water Act. In September of 1999 > an appeal upheld the ruling. > > In 1994, the year NAFTA went into effect, Smithfield > established the Perote operations with the Mexican > agrobusiness AMSA (Agroindustrias Unidas de México S.A. > de C.V.). In 1999 it bought the U.S. company Carroll's > Foods for $500 million and began rapid expanision of > its operations in Perote. > > Banking on Disease > > Livestock transnationals are not the only economic > interests involved in preserving the dangerous > situation that led to this epidemic. In an article > entitled 'An epidemic of profiteering', she notes that > the epidemic means big business for the pharmaceutical > companies who hold patents on anti-viral medicines. > 'Shares in Gilead rose 3%, Roche 4% and Glaxo 6%, and > that's only the beginning.' > > Also to blame is neoliberal globalization and its > impact on human health. Ribeiro has in interesting > theory on why Mexico City is the focal point of the > virus. 'People living in the city--and in a way the > city itself--suffer from a depressed immunological > system. Especially for the poor, the lack of public > services, water and health services, stress and poor > nutrition means that people die not only from increased > contagion but also from low defenses here.' > > Mexico's grand experiment in sink or swim neoliberalism > included privatization and erosion of health systems > and basic services. Mexican health policy expert > Gustavo Leal told the CIP Americas Program that 'the > notorious delay in the response of the federal > government can be attributed in part to the > decentralization of healthcare promoted by > international finance institutions such as the World > Bank. 'This broke down the chain of command and the > flow of information,' Leal said. Tellingly, the health > care network that has responded most vigorously to the > Mexican swine flu epidemic has been the Mexican Social > Security Institute (IMSS), an institute that > conservatives and the same IFIs have been trying to > privatize for years. Armies of IMSS healthcare > professionals are attending to cases and reporting from > the field throughout the country. > > SPP: Integrated Risk Management or Integrated Risks? > > It's ironic and inexcusable that the most integrated > region in the world responded so poorly to the recent > epidemic. One of the main selling points for the > extension of NAFTA into the Security and Prosperity > Partnership (SPP) was that a working group was > preparing integrated response to epidemics that would > make all North Americans safer. In fact, this was one > of the few publically announced activities of the > secretive working groups that primarily devote their > activities to making it easier for the Smithfields and > Tysons to do business throughout the continent. > > The SPP North American Plan declares that it provides a > framework to accomplish the following: * Detect, > contain and control an avian influenza outbreak and > prevent transmission to humans; * Prevent or slow the > entry of a new strain of human influenza into North > America; * Minimize illness and deaths; and * Sustain > infrastructure and mitigate the impact to the economy > and the functioning of society > > The Plan supposedly established mechanisms to > coordinate actions, monitor outbreaks, and supervise > animal farms. > > Mexico despite being a poor country with greater risk > of disease, had not received the technology needed to > immediately analyze flu strains so had to send samples > to the Canadian Health Ministry and the Center for > Disease Control (CDC) in Atlanta for analysis. About a > week was lost in this process. Moreover, as mentioned > the CDC didn't respond quickly or effectively. > > Where was this plan when Perote was reporting illness > and a local epidemic way back in March? Has this group > done serious research on the risks of industrial > livestock production? Why did the CDC take nearly a > week to respond to reports of the Mexican epidemic? > > The answers lie in what Davis refers to as the 'global > political clout' of the livestock transnationals. > Another hint can be found in this phrase from the SPP > announcement: 'Central to the Plan is a North American > approach that undertakes measures to maintain the flow > of people, services, and cargo across the borders > during a severe pandemic while striving to protect our > citizens.' > > As is the case with all of NAFTA, the top priority is > business as usual. While closing the borders is not the > answer, an investigation into the root causes of the > epidemic must lead to a full accounting of the risks of > globalization and industrial farming. Poor countries > with poor health run the greatest risks and yet the > current system gives their concerns short shrift and > little resources. > > A misplaced priority on profits over human health in > the context of a globalized world led to this epidemic > and its possibilities becoming the world's latest > pandemic. > > For More Information: > > * How the NAFTA Flu Exploded (Al Giordano, > 29/04/09) > http://www.narconews.com/Issue57/article3512.html * > Swine flu, border security and public priorities > (Kent Paterson, 28/04/09) > http://www.newspapertree.com/opinion/3738-swine- > flu-border-security-and-public-priorities * Swine- > flu outbreak could be linked to Smithfield factory > farms (Tom Philpot, 25/04/09) > http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-25-swine-flu- > smithfield > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- !!! - new e-mail account: jasonjcrawford at gmail.com -- My u-mail account deactivates on 02/01/2010 From indersalim at gmail.com Fri May 1 21:42:38 2009 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Fri, 1 May 2009 21:42:38 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] On The Globalization of Disease In-Reply-To: <18347431.1241189210356.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <18347431.1241189210356.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <47e122a70905010912k6fca46dbw36e60da382254f68@mail.gmail.com> Thanks dear paul it looks quite terrible in mexico, ( Mexico with small m ) sad. and a matter of concern. the fear of SWine Flue virus is real, akin to a Taliban sneaking into to India or America, but here, in India they are strangely home grown as well, with different names, from different religions , from different poltical animal, social colour as well, both passive and active, like a deadly flue hidden in any possibility from any "misplaced priority of profits over human health " ( health=sensibilities) Rightly pointed out ' the misplaced priority' as we know there is a great demand of meat in the world, particularly in the west, as i know there is an argument in the west that all the universal blood groups are descendants of Hunter Race and so need a regular supply of meat for their good health. I am myself a non-veg. but a regular supply of meat is never a ' priority' in our family, but for the affluent societies a meal without meat or fish is good enough for cattle only, oh i forgot the wine is must too. ( i like a glass of wine, but occasionally, not as regular diet ) So, from various view points one can say how we need the meat ( animals ) for our so called libidos to function on demand. The fact is otherwise. Meat eating has created an obese America, and less libido. So have we lost the grip on sum of alll the transactions that are going on in the world. Perhaps, the globalization is happening on its own, and we can do very little to manage it properly. Perhaps, we have lost the game, perhaps, the animals and artificially produced vegetables and milk are metamorphosed into some deadly virus which are attacking us. We have no clue, we look innocent, and in fact we are, and yet we are collectively responsible for the mess. Like, how American manufactured Talibans in Afghanistan and Pakistan and now are afraid of them. The complexity, begins here, when American puppet regime in Afghanistan does almost what Talibans would have done if they were not removed from power. That is the game, of Trade even, it can speak again a particular system at a place but allow the same thing to happen at other place. The priorities are perhaps, fixed by the developed world itself, and they should own the responsibility, Perhaps, the regular demand of Swine flue is created by a unending demand of pork from London, paris, new york etc. Well, beyond comparison, Talibans can be pushed back to see the futility of violence, but how to talk to this virus, who are even less than a cell. so, may be we better go back to fundamentals of life: perhaps, simplicity,... with love inder salim n Fri, May 1, 2009 at 8:16 PM, Paul D. Miller wrote: > How to argue with an observation that "A misplaced priority on profits over human health in the context of a globalized world led to this epidemic > and its possibilities becoming the world's latest > pandemic..." > > Paul > > > Mexico's Swine Flu and the Globalization of Disease > > Laura Carlsen > Americas MexicoBlog > http://americasmexico.blogspot.com/2009/04/mexicos-swine-flu-and-globalization-of.html > > Mexico has long been considered the laboratory of > globalization. Now a potentially deadly virus has > germinated in that laboratory, finding ideal conditions > to move quickly along a path toward global pandemic. > > Those conditions include: a rapid transition from small > livestock production to industrial meat farms after > NAFTA established incentives for foreign investment, > the failed decentralization of Mexico's health system > along lines established by multilateral lending banks, > lax and non-enforced environmental and health > regulations as the Mexican government was forced to > downsize, the increased flow of goods and persons > across borders, and restricted access to life-saving > medicines due to NAFTA intellectual property monopolies > for pharmaceutical companies. > > Mexico under Medical Siege > > The swine flu alert in Mexico rose to a level four this > week, meaning that it is spreading human-to-human and > shows a significant increase in the risk of becoming a > pandemic. Schools are closed until at least May 6. The > Mexico City government shut down the city's 35,000 > restaurants on Monday. Countries including Canada, > Argentina, and several European nations have cancelled > flights between Mexico in an effort to contain the > spread of the new flu, although Keiji Fukuda of the WHO > noted, 'closing borders or restricting travel has > really little effect in stopping the movement of this > virus' now that cases are appearing across the globe. > > Here in Mexico City, all public events have been > cancelled and people have flocked to the supermarkets > in surgical masks to stock up on food. I had to go out > yesterday and discovered less traffic (small > consolation) but a fairly normal number of people in > the streets, many wearing the recommended masks. > Traditional practices of greeting each other with > kisses and handshakes have been suspended and a cough > is seen as tantamount to assault. > > But I didn't feel an atmosphere of panic. Mexicans seem > to have accepted the epidemic and changes in their > lives with a combination of cultural fatalism and > survival instincts although many are skeptical of the > government's claims and the measures taken. > > The media has been providing a steady stream of real > and generally non-alarmist information out about the > risks. The flu is a mutant form of swine flu, human > seasonal flu and bird flu. In itself, it is not lethal > but it leads to complications of 'atypical pneumonia'. > It's atypical because it's out of season and because > victims tend to concentrate in the middle age range. > Unlike regular pneumonia that picks off the very young > and the very old, deaths of this virus tend to be > within the 20-40 range. No-one seems to know exactly > why this is. In fact, it is the newness of the virus > that has raised the alarm. It can be treated > successfully with anti-virals but there is no vaccine > for it. > > The strategy is to avoid enclosed spaces with large > numbers of people. Although people are obeying the > measures and following recommendations, increasing > doubts exist about the transparency and honesty of > government information. A press conference by the > Secretaries of Health and Labor on April 29 ended in > chaos, with reporters yelling out questions to clear up > contradictions between the official version that only > 26 cases of swine flu had been confirmed in Mexico and > reports of far greater numbers. > > Swine Flu and the Smithfield Connection > > Because of the population density of Mexico City it > continues to be the center of the epidemic. Of the > seven deaths from swine flu confirmed by the Mexican > government and the WHO, all were in Mexico City-six in > the delegation where we live. > > However, the first reports came from Perote, Veracruz-- > home to a huge hog farm co-owned and operated by the > U.S. transnational industrial livestock company > Smithfield and a Mexican company. In early March, local > health officials proclaimed an epidemiological alert > due to a flu with the exact same characteristics. La > Jornada reported that Perote officials claimed 60% of > the population suffered from flu, pneumonia and > bronchitis. Federal health officials reportedly ignored > the complaints until April 5, when they placed sanitary > restrictions on Carroll Farms. Mexico's Secretary of > Health Jose Angel Cordova discarded the theory that the > flu originated in the hog farms of Perote. But the > information provided led to more confusion than clarity > about that. This needs to be independently and > seriously analyzed because the fact remains that the > people in Perote show high indices of similar and > unexplained illnesses and the government information is > partial and inconclusive. > > Silvia Ribeiro of the ETC Group told the Americas > Program that Mexican officials 'act like this is > something that fell from the sky, but we've known for a > long time that industrial livestock operations, > especially hogs, are a breeding ground for recombinant > viruses. Carroll Farms is just one example, an > important one in this case, but it's also true of > industrial chicken farms.' Anybody who has seen an > industrial hog farm knows the risk of disease. The > unimaginable concentrations of filth, corrals filled > with sick and suffering animals pumped full of > antibiotics, and buzzing with flies that then carry > disease to the human population create a disease > paradise. > > As Mike Davis points out, 'The paradox of this swine > flu panic is that, while totally unexpected, it was > accurately predicted. Six years ago, Science dedicated > a major story to evidence that "after years of > stability, the North American swine flu virus has > jumped onto an evolutionary fast track". > > NAFTA unleashed the spread of industrial livestock > farms in Mexico by creating investment incentives for > transnational companies to relocate operations there. > The 'race to the bottom' -- where companies move > production to areas where environmental and health > restrictions and enforcement are low, is exemplified in > livestock farming. > > Smithfield has had more than its share of legal > problems stemming from its operations in the United > States. Most recently it announced a decision to reject > a $75 million dollar settlement on claims brought in > Missouri by residents complaining of the stench. On > August 8, 1997 a federal court judge in Virginia > imposed a $12.6 million fine on Smithfield Foods for > violation of the Clean Water Act. In September of 1999 > an appeal upheld the ruling. > > In 1994, the year NAFTA went into effect, Smithfield > established the Perote operations with the Mexican > agrobusiness AMSA (Agroindustrias Unidas de México S.A. > de C.V.). In 1999 it bought the U.S. company Carroll's > Foods for $500 million and began rapid expanision of > its operations in Perote. > > Banking on Disease > > Livestock transnationals are not the only economic > interests involved in preserving the dangerous > situation that led to this epidemic. In an article > entitled 'An epidemic of profiteering', she notes that > the epidemic means big business for the pharmaceutical > companies who hold patents on anti-viral medicines. > 'Shares in Gilead rose 3%, Roche 4% and Glaxo 6%, and > that's only the beginning.' > > Also to blame is neoliberal globalization and its > impact on human health. Ribeiro has in interesting > theory on why Mexico City is the focal point of the > virus. 'People living in the city--and in a way the > city itself--suffer from a depressed immunological > system. Especially for the poor, the lack of public > services, water and health services, stress and poor > nutrition means that people die not only from increased > contagion but also from low defenses here.' > > Mexico's grand experiment in sink or swim neoliberalism > included privatization and erosion of health systems > and basic services. Mexican health policy expert > Gustavo Leal told the CIP Americas Program that 'the > notorious delay in the response of the federal > government can be attributed in part to the > decentralization of healthcare promoted by > international finance institutions such as the World > Bank. 'This broke down the chain of command and the > flow of information,' Leal said. Tellingly, the health > care network that has responded most vigorously to the > Mexican swine flu epidemic has been the Mexican Social > Security Institute (IMSS), an institute that > conservatives and the same IFIs have been trying to > privatize for years. Armies of IMSS healthcare > professionals are attending to cases and reporting from > the field throughout the country. > > SPP: Integrated Risk Management or Integrated Risks? > > It's ironic and inexcusable that the most integrated > region in the world responded so poorly to the recent > epidemic. One of the main selling points for the > extension of NAFTA into the Security and Prosperity > Partnership (SPP) was that a working group was > preparing integrated response to epidemics that would > make all North Americans safer. In fact, this was one > of the few publically announced activities of the > secretive working groups that primarily devote their > activities to making it easier for the Smithfields and > Tysons to do business throughout the continent. > > The SPP North American Plan declares that it provides a > framework to accomplish the following: * Detect, > contain and control an avian influenza outbreak and > prevent transmission to humans; * Prevent or slow the > entry of a new strain of human influenza into North > America; * Minimize illness and deaths; and * Sustain > infrastructure and mitigate the impact to the economy > and the functioning of society > > The Plan supposedly established mechanisms to > coordinate actions, monitor outbreaks, and supervise > animal farms. > > Mexico despite being a poor country with greater risk > of disease, had not received the technology needed to > immediately analyze flu strains so had to send samples > to the Canadian Health Ministry and the Center for > Disease Control (CDC) in Atlanta for analysis. About a > week was lost in this process. Moreover, as mentioned > the CDC didn't respond quickly or effectively. > > Where was this plan when Perote was reporting illness > and a local epidemic way back in March? Has this group > done serious research on the risks of industrial > livestock production? Why did the CDC take nearly a > week to respond to reports of the Mexican epidemic? > > The answers lie in what Davis refers to as the 'global > political clout' of the livestock transnationals. > Another hint can be found in this phrase from the SPP > announcement: 'Central to the Plan is a North American > approach that undertakes measures to maintain the flow > of people, services, and cargo across the borders > during a severe pandemic while striving to protect our > citizens.' > > As is the case with all of NAFTA, the top priority is > business as usual. While closing the borders is not the > answer, an investigation into the root causes of the > epidemic must lead to a full accounting of the risks of > globalization and industrial farming. Poor countries > with poor health run the greatest risks and yet the > current system gives their concerns short shrift and > little resources. > > A misplaced priority on profits over human health in > the context of a globalized world led to this epidemic > and its possibilities becoming the world's latest > pandemic. > > For More Information: > >    * How the NAFTA Flu Exploded (Al Giordano, >    29/04/09) >    http://www.narconews.com/Issue57/article3512.html * >    Swine flu, border security and public priorities >    (Kent Paterson, 28/04/09) >    http://www.newspapertree.com/opinion/3738-swine- >    flu-border-security-and-public-priorities * Swine- >    flu outbreak could be linked to Smithfield factory >    farms (Tom Philpot, 25/04/09) >    http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-25-swine-flu- >    smithfield > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Fri May 1 21:51:02 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Fri, 1 May 2009 17:21:02 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] cost of the NIC, national wastage system. In-Reply-To: <61164a90905010031v4f665212j346e6dd7502d6d0@mail.gmail.com> References: <61164a90905010031v4f665212j346e6dd7502d6d0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <65be9bf40905010921p17b8ea14g78d132510687cca@mail.gmail.com> Dear Rajen Thank you for sharing that anecdote, however I am not sure what does the bogey of 'Good governance' means? Could we make a model of what the people did in that village and replicate it in the rest of the country? Would that be possible? Would the people of that village face no problem in future? Would they rely on their experience of coming together in every other eventuality? Political parties have their own strategies for governance or maybe it is just about coming to power. If Congress's claim to power is rooted in history, family etc. The BJP, as Prof. Yogender Yadav pointed out in a TV debate few days ago, uses Hindutva, as a strategy to tweak a space and then starts building a perception of 'efficient administration'. That apart, I find it amusing, that while in so-called mature democracies, there are indications that debates around the national identity card is not just being being articulated in either 'down-down' infringement of privacy language or in kneeling- down- in- blind- awe- in- presence- of- technology argument. Especially the latter argument is picked up people , whom Mr.Modi prefers to calls as 'News Traders' ( I love the phrase and I have to give it to him for sounding sensible, perhaps for the first time in his entire public innings) The columnists at Guardian, it seems, are upping the ante in favor of an argument about public costs of introducing a national identity card, which is very very relevant even to India too. Do we really and I mean REALLY need this token of national citizenship at the cost of scrapping all those preexisting tokens? I do not understand the rational, given by both the NDA and UPA governments? You might have noticed that in a forward to the reader list (MNIC: Parliament questions -8), in reply to the question asked in Lok Sabha, related to the, MINISTRY OF LAW , JUSTICE AND COMPANY AFFAIRS, UNSTARRED QUESTION NO 660, ANSWERED ON 27.07.2000 The Minister categorically asserts, 'It is not possible to cover all the electors under the scheme of issue of I. Cards at any given point of time.'. Furthermore he says, 'A sum of Rs.419,45,61,710/- has been released by the Central Government to the States/Union territories specifically for expenditure on the scheme of electors` Photo Identity Cards between 1994-95 and 1999-2000.' My point being, if the experience of administration and governance shows us that we cannot distribute identity cards to all Indians and that even if we do then we can do it at price which is just 500 crores, why do many people in India, seem to desire a digital card so badly? When I attended the smart card exposition at pragati maidain, back in 2006, I was part of the audience listening very intently to a panel comprising of representatives of Philips NXP division. Now NXP is one of the key companies in the national identity card game. World wide, they have emerged as the largest player. The discussion was whether to make MNIC a contact card or a contact less card. Towards the end of the discussion, it was decided to urge members of GOI to make 'appropriate policy adjustments' for a contactless card. The bearing on price was significant. The projected numbers swelled from a mere 5000 crores to 25-27000 crores. A voter id card just costs 500 crores only. I wonder, do we really, REALLY, need to make room for this much amount of money? Why is the GOI not thinking of upgrading the existing technology, if they need a national database so badly? When there are no reports anywhere in the world which conclusively prove that a national identity card helps weed out illegal immigrants. Why the need for a completely untested technology? Why are we fed this technology led propaganda? I do not understand it at all. There seems to be no reason here but only a whim. Toys for the Boys sort of a syndrome. You tell me Rajen, would the presence of a MNIC card in that small village in Dakshina Kannada district of Karnataka State, helped those poor illiterate people in any way to secure a more just re-distribution of public money? Would it have ensured, that now that they can prove to the world that they are Indian Citizens, they are able to get what is legitimately entitled? And most importantly, would the state have obliged, Justly? I have my doubts. Regards Taha From indersalim at gmail.com Fri May 1 21:56:29 2009 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Fri, 1 May 2009 21:56:29 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] on on going elections in India Message-ID: <47e122a70905010926yca99958o59b12f56c58b8e45@mail.gmail.com> Dear All please press to read http://singularitease.blogspot.com/ love inder salim -- -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Fri May 1 22:07:38 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Fri, 1 May 2009 17:37:38 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] MNIC: Parliament Questions - 9 Message-ID: <65be9bf40905010937v690e58ccub5dfb2556a7c2bcb@mail.gmail.com> http://164.100.47.132/psearch/QResult13.aspx?qref=8567 GOVERNMENT OF INDIA MINISTRY OF HOME AFFAIRS LOK SABHA UNSTARRED QUESTION NO 2499 ANSWERED ON 08.08.2000 CITIZENSHIP IDENTITY CARDS 2499 . Shri NEDURUMALLI JANARDHANA REDDY (a) whether the Delhi High Court in its recent judgement has stated that claim of citizenship cannot be validated only by obtaining EC`s Photo Identity card or ration card; (b) if so, whether the Government have been actively considering to issue citizenship Identity cards to all the actual residents in the country; and (c) if so, the time by which it is likely to be done and the steps the Government propose to take to deport all the foreign nationals from the country? ANSWER THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE MINISTRY OF HOME AFFAIRS (CH. VIDYASAGAR RAO) (a): Yes, Sir. (b): A proposal for compulsory registration of all citizens in the country and issuing them Multi-Purpose National Identity Cards (MNICs) has been under consideration in this Ministry. A feasibility study in respect of this scheme is presently under preparation. (c): Detection and deportation of foreign nationals staying illegally in the country is an on going process. From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Sat May 2 02:37:36 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Fri, 1 May 2009 22:07:36 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Eunuchs avoid polls Message-ID: <65be9bf40905011407h56b6e82bndff82453e477016e@mail.gmail.com> Dear All Does the protocol to identify indian citizens as Indian Citizens as validated by the MNIC program take notice of the fact that at least one million Indians are neither males nor females? The performa of National population Register does not state 'third sex' as an option. Does this mean that ten hundred thousand eunuchs of India are not Indian citizens? What is the Government doing about it? Regards Taha http://news.ninemsn.com.au/world/803352/Eunuchs-avoid-polls-over-sex-dilemma Eunuchs avoid polls over 'third sex' dilemma 13:24 AEST Sun Apr 19 2009 India's one million eunuchs face a unique dilemma every election season — do they stand in the men's or women's queue at polling stations or stay away altogether? In the past, eunuchs — the term used for cross-dressers, pre- and post-operative transsexuals known here as hijras — have largely abstained from casting their ballots because they are unwilling to identify themselves as male or female on voter registration forms. While some eunuchs do vote by listing themselves as female, many are pushing for an alternative or "third sex" option on identity cards, after being granted the franchise in 1994. Laxmi Narayan Tripathi, a prominent eunuch activist and founder of NGO Astitva, which works with sexual minorities, has never voted and refuses to do so until there is a transgender option on identity cards. "It's the question of the identity of our whole community," she said. "In spite of so many years of independence we haven't got our own identity, our own place in the constitution of India." Most eunuchs live on the outer fringes of society, ostracized and excluded from decent job opportunities and reduced to begging at traffic junctions in major cities or working in the sex trade. Despite the stigma surrounding them, a campaign to recognise eunuchs as a third sex has yielded some results. They can now write "E" for eunuch on passports and on certain government forms, but the quest for acceptance at the ballot box — where they have to identify themselves as male or female — still eludes them in culturally conservative India. "There has been quite a bit of progress so structurally the only thing that comes in is gender politics," said Ashok Row Kavi, chairman of the Humsafar Trust, a male sexual health NGO. Eunuchs who want to contest in elections for greater rights have come up against similar problems, even though several have been elected to public office as women. Last month India's election commission denied three eunuchs in the eastern state of Orissa permission to run as candidates unless they identified themselves as male or female. Pratap Sahu, president of the All-Orissa Eunuchs Association, which fielded the candidates, said the unsuccessful bid had been a form of protest against election authorities. "We wanted to fight the election on the third sex issue. In India nobody has fought for this," he said. The relatively small number of eunuchs, compared to other minority groups, means it is unlikely that any party deems them a priority vote bank, said Anil Bairwal, national coordinator for the Association of Democratic Reforms. "Whether it will be taken up or not — as far as our political parties are concerned, the only language they understand is the language of numbers," he said. Month-long general elections in the world's largest democracy began on Thursday, with the last of five phases taking place on May 13. Results are expected May 16. From rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com Sat May 2 13:46:53 2009 From: rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com (Rajen Uppinangadi) Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 13:46:53 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] victims must get justice. Message-ID: <61164a90905020116lc963e09g40d39b83894ff34a@mail.gmail.com> Anupam, I do not carry baggage of any idealogy of any political outfit, be it of red, tricolor or saffron, so for me to express my opinion as I do is not for orgasm, but to share my anxiety. As to Theesta, she is not helping the riot victims as she is busy with helping accused in riots, based on their faith, of Gujarath, unlike her father the famous jurist Justice Setalwad.Theesta if only had interest to help the victims instead of being pawn to party in power at centre, for the NGO funds, could have done much more to all victims, as victims are humans, faith came later to them., or lack faith also does not make anyone less humane.? As to judicial proceedings, it is the duty of the citizens to demand total transapareny in the proceedings so that deals are not struck in delivery system, all political parties have something to gain from delayed justice, the appeasement of vote banks, keeping their individuals in safe havens, etc.. As to separate living areas of the Gujarath or any other place in India, it is for the society to address this issue, if you care to visit Mallapuram, Kannur, In Kerala, Bhatkal, Kolar, Mulbagal in Karnataka, you can see what are called as mini pakistans with muslim majority. Even metro cities have the type of isolated ghettos of different communities thanks to the divide and rule that went on for all these years in free India. Regards, Rajen. From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Sat May 2 14:10:14 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 14:10:14 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] victims must get justice. In-Reply-To: <61164a90905020116lc963e09g40d39b83894ff34a@mail.gmail.com> References: <61164a90905020116lc963e09g40d39b83894ff34a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Rajen sir Have you ever yourself visited any of those places which you have referred to as mini-Pakistan? And on what basis are they claimed to be like Pakistan? What is your conception of Pakistan? Regards Rakesh From rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com Sat May 2 14:22:53 2009 From: rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com (Rajen Uppinangadi) Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 14:22:53 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Common man and election results. Message-ID: <61164a90905020152p1e29793cufaf1219aea1aa40e@mail.gmail.com> Dear All, The carnival of general elections is in last two phases and almost 2/3 seats of parliament have been voted into EVMs. The vast nation that this Bharath is , we can see the varied percentage of voting in different parts of the regions in the nation. First and foremost dampener was perhaps the hot weather of summer.Second factor was the joke of the election commission which takes months to do all the sorting of the logistics but still has little success in making the voting a good experience for voters.The listed names missing, more names adding, voters of the previous elections missing in the present list are only few jokes to recall., though to voter it is quite a nightmare to stand for hours to get the epic, correct the spellings of the name and address etc. The role of money in elections was never so vulgar as in the present elections, liqour flowed with new ingenious methods, all parties are guilty to different degrees in this vulgar exploitation of human weakness. The psephologists also had a demanding time, as voter has seen that after 1989 none have reached aywhere near the predictions they have made with sample surveys, sixth sense and plain nonsense of experts.To say the least, the pre poll survey and post poll survey have become the jokes for the other channels on comedy shows.While one channel made genuine effort to connect itself with voter with its election expres as deluxe bus, the anchor was clearly biased in asking the voter leading questions as to his voting preference.But in all, the tv channels have lost their credibilty as they are seen as the puppets trying to please those in power. The role of advertisement revenue to channels by different parties also raises the question as to journalism sways with money doled out.? Though journalists have high integrity and intelectual freedom to call spade a spade, the tv anchors can not be bracketed in this category of journalists as these are only celebrities, who do not even verify the correctnes of facts, but air the views as news.Examples are many, where tv anchors in the anxiety to be first and exclusive to "breaking news" have made themselves idiotic, be it prince in the well, or Arushi murder case, where each channel was playing one upman ship, the facts were best of their imaginations, later reinforced by "reconstruction" All these factors point out very clearly that these highly paid tv anchors are not aware of the common voter or his sentiments, nor do they have patience to understand him with deadline beating on their face.? What about results, ? Common sense tells that the more divided the polity more unexpected can happen, earlier, unity index of opposition parties to ruling party was a giveaway of the guessing game. But with caste based parties and engineered caste equations, psuedo secular arrangements for vote banks, and community vote banks, the common voter in any parliament seat goes by the candidate whom he thinks that is good for his needs., who has performed some good work for the constituency. But the role of regional satraps like Sharad Pawar, Lalu and Mulayam and Mayavathi along with Jayalalithaa are not over as yet. Another two elections and some more bad governance of the elcted, then the voter will wake up to vote unlike Mumbai but in full force to show his concern/ disapproval or approval. Current elections will be surprising everyone with most obscure of the results and events in future which will determine the fate of many a national parties like the Congress, BJP and CPI and CPM. As power will be driving force along with the idea that BJP should be kept out of power, it will not surprise any one when even if BJP improves its tally in NDA upto 190, it may not get any mates to be in power. Whereas even if Congress manages just about 120 seats, it may not be in a position to dictate terms but will have to fall in line with all regional and caste based parties for "secular governance."? If not master of division, Sharad Pawar will divide Congress as Sonia Congress and national Congress.! Regards, Rajen. From chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Sat May 2 14:26:51 2009 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com (chanchal malviya) Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 01:56:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] victims must get justice. In-Reply-To: <61164a90905020116lc963e09g40d39b83894ff34a@mail.gmail.com> References: <61164a90905020116lc963e09g40d39b83894ff34a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <696568.98148.qm@web90403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> If you all are so keen to go against Hindus for an 8 year old history, why don't you show equal interest in going back to 800 year old history. How long do you want to blame Hindus? 65 people dying in Godhra is not important, but 6 people dying in Malegaon is important. Post Babri reaction in Mumabi is not important, but post Godhra reaction in Gujarat itself is important.. What a hypocrisy? All that Hindu does, even as a reaction or protection is crime. All that goest against Hindus, even if it is mass massacre or bombing is Correct? What great nationalists we have in our country now? A country who cannot learn from its history is likely to repeat the history again. It is a pity - a country which is the land of Hindus by and large is a victim of Hindus alone who are ready to support killing and attrocities on Hindus silently. No words for 5 lakhs kashmiri Pandits, no words for 65 people burnt alive in front of people of Godhra, no words for 6 crore bangladeshis creating serious problems in our country, no words for pockets created in our country that is troubling Hindus, no words for Conversions.... all words against Hindus.... I do not understand what is Anti-Nationalism now.... ________________________________ From: Rajen Uppinangadi To: c.anupam at gmail.com Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Saturday, May 2, 2009 1:46:53 PM Subject: [Reader-list] victims must get justice. Anupam, I do not carry baggage of any idealogy of any political outfit, be it of red, tricolor or saffron, so for me to express my opinion as I do is not for orgasm, but to share my anxiety. As to Theesta, she is not helping the riot victims as she is busy with helping accused in riots, based on their faith, of Gujarath, unlike her father the famous jurist Justice Setalwad.Theesta if only had interest to help the victims instead of being pawn to party in power at centre, for the NGO funds, could have done much more to all victims, as victims are humans, faith came later to them., or lack faith also does not make anyone less humane.? As to judicial proceedings, it is the duty of the citizens to demand total transapareny in the proceedings so that deals are not struck in delivery system, all political parties have something to gain from delayed justice, the appeasement of vote banks, keeping their individuals in safe havens, etc.. As to separate living areas of the Gujarath or any other place in India, it is for the society to address this issue, if you care to visit Mallapuram, Kannur, In Kerala, Bhatkal, Kolar, Mulbagal in Karnataka, you can see what are called as mini pakistans with muslim majority. Even metro cities have the type of isolated ghettos of different communities thanks to the divide and rule that went on for all these years in free India. Regards, Rajen. _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com Sat May 2 14:40:51 2009 From: rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com (Rajen Uppinangadi) Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 14:40:51 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] No, we forget our history.Because it is doctored and re written many more times, ! Message-ID: <61164a90905020210l43e92206p86adab878990684c@mail.gmail.com> Dear Chanchal, how can we understand our history ? This history has changed colours with the change in rulers, british changed it to suit their fair name, mughals had it their way, now Congress in its rule direct and indirect, has made us re-learn the histroy that only Gandhi and Nehru sacrificed for the nation, the fourth generation, now in free India is confused lot if you tell them, that when my father told me that sikhs were hindus raised specially in martial arts, as army to defend hindus, now you will not see them all in that role, take man mohan singh who is with pallu of Sonia.! Tipu Sultan who ruled Mysore state, was the most respected king, had all hindu scholars working with him, but a minister of BJP governance says he is communal, so when my progeny asks me, I honestly do not know the answer. But we can live in the present, plan the future with good governance with out equations of caste and faith., so that all citizens will get good governance and none will be commune vote banks for any party.? Regards, Rajen. From c.anupam at gmail.com Sat May 2 14:57:03 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 14:57:03 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] victims must get justice. In-Reply-To: <696568.98148.qm@web90403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <61164a90905020116lc963e09g40d39b83894ff34a@mail.gmail.com> <696568.98148.qm@web90403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <341380d00905020227h3c88bb22n1106620390e320bc@mail.gmail.com> Rajen, You say you do not carry an ideology as a baggage but the stuff you talk about most of the time is a borrowed rhetoric from a narendra modi speech. so please. the reason why we have so many mini-pakistan, as you stated because these people feel secure staying close to each other (which you also would have done if you were in USA and UK). the fact that these places have been turned to ghettos is only because of vulgar display of majoritarianism. trying to play majoritarian politics is as communal as trying to have minority vote banks. they both complement each other. about you are pretty much misinformed teesta and her colleagues intention. she is not siding with those who have been accused of rioting. she and others were looking for the those who were killed by the rioters during gujarat 2002. so please first check your facts and try putting them up. Chanchal, This nation was not founded on basis of a religious identity. Please check your facts. And for your information, out of the 65 persons who were burnt in that Godhra carnage, the same government based on the Hindutva lines considered many of the dead as missing for the last 7 years. In the bombings and massacres that you have cited, not just Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs also have been killed. What is your problem with conversions? Or with Bangladeshis – they come to work as labourers. Half of your construction businesses in northeastern states have Bangladeshi labourers working at half the majdoori and a loaf of bread. Go throw them out, see what happens. Again on the issue of Kashmiri pandits, it is greed-infested policy making of successive governments of India and Pakistan that doesn’t understand Kashmir’s diversity and making their own claims on territories, so that they can cash in from these lands. I am surprised at you being educated person and justifying the crimes of the rioters as reactions. When tomorrow, such reactions turn into an organised Mafiosi for the protection of just class of people, destabilising the fabric of this country, I am sure you will come to justify. Wouldn’t you? This country is not because so many Hindus or so many muslims or Sikhs or Christians took part in the freedom struggle to oust the colonial rulers.Most of the Hindu outfits had sided with erstwhile kings and their principalities so that they could jeopardise the freedom movement and turn into a majoritarian Hindu state. Killing of Mahatma Gandhi was the handiwork of a Hindu terrorist. so please do not forget that. Fortunately, for this country any attempt by a select coterie of people to hijack its constitutionality or its foundations has been foiled. It is not as you anti-nationalism, it is very much in the spirit of the nation. By the way since you have cited the numbers, let me tell you that when 65 people were burnt in Godhra by whom which is not yet clear under the eyes of the law, a genocide followed in 1169 persons went missing, out of which 90 per cent people were muslims. So this is the reaction that you are trying to justify. -anupam On 5/2/09, chanchal malviya wrote: > > If you all are so keen to go against Hindus for an 8 year old history, > why don't you show equal interest in going back to 800 year old history. How > long do you want to blame Hindus? 65 people dying in Godhra is not > important, but 6 people dying in Malegaon is important. Post Babri reaction > in Mumabi is not important, but post Godhra reaction in Gujarat itself is > important.. > > What a hypocrisy? All that Hindu does, even as a reaction or protection is > crime. All that goest against Hindus, even if it is mass massacre or bombing > is Correct? What great nationalists we have in our country now? > > A country who cannot learn from its history is likely to repeat the history > again. It is a pity - a country which is the land of Hindus by and large is > a victim of Hindus alone who are ready to support killing and attrocities on > Hindus silently. No words for 5 lakhs kashmiri Pandits, no words for 65 > people burnt alive in front of people of Godhra, no words for 6 crore > bangladeshis creating serious problems in our country, no words for pockets > created in our country that is troubling Hindus, no words for > Conversions.... all words against Hindus.... I do not understand what is > Anti-Nationalism now.... > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Rajen Uppinangadi > *To:* c.anupam at gmail.com > *Cc:* reader-list at sarai.net > *Sent:* Saturday, May 2, 2009 1:46:53 PM > *Subject:* [Reader-list] victims must get justice. > > Anupam, > I do not carry baggage of any idealogy of any political outfit, be it > of > red, tricolor or saffron, so for me to express my opinion as I do is not > for > orgasm, but to share my anxiety. > > As to Theesta, she is not helping the riot victims as she is busy with > helping accused in riots, based on their faith, of Gujarath, unlike her > father the famous jurist Justice Setalwad.Theesta if only had interest to > help the victims instead of being pawn to party in power at centre, for the > NGO funds, could have done much more to all victims, as victims are humans, > faith came later to them., or lack faith also does not make anyone less > humane.? > > As to judicial proceedings, it is the duty of the citizens to demand total > transapareny in the proceedings so that deals are not struck in delivery > system, all political parties have something to gain from delayed justice, > the appeasement of vote banks, keeping their individuals in safe havens, > etc.. > > As to separate living areas of the Gujarath or any other place in India, it > is for the society to address this issue, if you care to visit Mallapuram, > Kannur, In Kerala, Bhatkal, Kolar, Mulbagal in Karnataka, you can see what > are called as mini pakistans with muslim majority. Even metro cities have > the type of isolated ghettos of different communities thanks to the divide > and rule that went on for all these years in free India. > > Regards, > > Rajen. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > From rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com Sat May 2 15:06:31 2009 From: rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com (Rajen Uppinangadi) Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 15:06:31 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] If and but are not good in public good. Message-ID: <61164a90905020236w4a018d22pb2932d98f68b0e78@mail.gmail.com> Dear Taha, Ifs and butts do not deliver the good governance and it is not bogey as you would love to assume. Good governance means use of funds in all the regions for public usage, such as health care., education, training in skill sets,drinking water to all, less spending on the modern kings of democracy, security for every citizen , not to MP or MLA. ( I would say let him sacrifice his life for common man.!) Most importantly, no faith based funding, but need based works wil go a long way, the excuse that we do not have funds is patently false as we waste whatever we have on luxury of our netas. With that goal, no sacchar committee report or any other report is needed as all of us see the plight of the poor in society day in and out.Poor in society belong to all faiths, more to society. Regards, Rajen. From rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com Sat May 2 15:11:46 2009 From: rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com (Rajen Uppinangadi) Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 15:11:46 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] National wastage system.? Message-ID: <61164a90905020241w35ccd35ds9c66d9ee1b79965c@mail.gmail.com> Dear Taha, the villagers pooled up funds and the need was about 2.5 lakhs, youngsters went to the industrial unit, Lamina springs, which defrayed part of the cost. The labour was part from the village, semi skilled and skilled , paid ones, and maintainance is smooth as heavy loads are not taken, but the bridge is basically connecting the people of both the sides. System of governance allotted a sum of 2.5 lakhs for the survey and tender publication, estimation, etc. and in that year all this sum was used up.! If we have the courage and conviction, we can, we will. Regards, Rajen. From peter.ksmtf at gmail.com Sat May 2 16:00:22 2009 From: peter.ksmtf at gmail.com (T Peter) Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 16:00:22 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fish workers to launch State-wide agitation Message-ID: <3457ce860905020330u1a9bbf92p155b3bcf6272e71@mail.gmail.com> *Fish workers to launch State-wide agitation * *Date:01/05/2009* *URL: http://www.thehindu.com/2009/05/01/stories/2009050158570300.htm* Special Correspondent *Call to implement loan waiver package * ------------------------------ * Accuses Centre of going back on pre-poll promise Secretariat dharna planned on May 25 * ------------------------------ THIRUVANANTHAPURAM: The Kerala Swathantra Matsya Thozhilali Federation (KSMTF) is gearing up for a State-wide agitation against the government for the failure to implement the loan waiver package for fish workers in the State. Addressing a press conference here on Thursday, KSMTF State president T. Peter and district secretary Anto Elias said fish workers across the State had been let down by the Centre’s move to exclude them from the agriculture loan waiver package. They said it would be a heavy blow for the fishing community which is already struggling under the impact of depleting fish stocks and rising input costs. “Many of us will be forced to beach the boats that were purchased with loans from banks and private financial institutions. The rising cost of diesel and kerosene adds to our burden,” Mr. Peter said. He alleged that the Union government had gone back on its pre-election commitment to waive the loans of fish workers. “The State government’s loan waiver scheme also could not taken off beyond the constitution of a committee,” he said. The federation said traditional fishermen were the worst affected by the depletion of fish stocks due to the operation of foreign fishing vessels. March planned Fish workers will take out a march to the office of the Accountant General here on May 11 demanding steps to waive their loans. On May 25, they would stage a dharna before the Government Secretariat. In the third phase of the stir, a KSMTF delegation would submit a memorandum to the newly installed government in New Delhi, highlighting their demands. *By Express News Service 01 May 2009 10:06:00 AM IST* Fishermen to launch agitation THIRUVANANTHAPURAM: Fishermen under the banner of the Kerala Swathanthra Matsya Thozhilali Federation will launch an agitation in protest against the exclusion of fishermen in the State from the package announced by the Centre to write off agricultural loans. Addressing a news conference here on Thursday, Federation state president T.Peter said that the package would have been a relief to the fishermen who had been facing misery following a decline in the catch. He said that the fishermen were forced to keep their vessels idle owing to the shortage of fish in the sea. The foreign trawlers are using special nets to catch fish in large quantities from the sea. The traditional fishermen are finding it difficult to eke out a living in the current circumstances. They do not get the catch even to meet the expense of diesel and kerosene required for operating the boats. Peter said that Union Minister Sharad Pawar had gone back on the assurance to write off the loans of fishermen after the polling in the State. Peter said that the State Government’s fishermen’s debt relief scheme also had not been implemented so far. No action, except constituting a committee to implement the project, had been taken so far. The Federation would launch an agitation seeking to write off the debts of fishermen from May 11. The workers take out a march to the AG’s Office here on May 11. A Secretariat dharna will be held on May 25. A delegation will go to New Delhi in the first week of June and would submit a memorandum to the Centre, Peter said. From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sat May 2 18:20:04 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 18:20:04 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 1946 -Jinnah - Time Magazine cover page Message-ID: <6b79f1a70905020550gd887f8ayc49268a52b73c5b6@mail.gmail.com> India’s festering sun beat down impartially on New and Old Delhi—on the precisely geometric, grandly drab preserves of the British Raj, on the noisy, squalid, sprawling native town. A sweat-soaked British wallah might change his shirt four times before settling down to an evening burra peg of bad Australian whiskey in the garden of the Cecil Hotel. Even the calloused, naked feet of shirtless Indians burned as they padded along the teeming Chandni Chauk. In the brassy glare, the flowering trees near the Viceroy’s residence seemed to bear sparks rather than blossoms. The rind of an orange would shrivel the moment it was peeled from its fruit. Here & there an exhausted cow rested, sacred and undisturbed, in the traffic lanes of the boulevards. Delhi in the spring heat of 1946 was not relaxed; it was taut with waiting, gravid with conflict and suspense. Two Socialist lawyers and a former Baptist lay preacher from Britain had sat for 25 days in the southeast wing of the viceregal palace, preparing to liquidate the richest portion of empire that history had ever seen—to end the British Raj, the grand and guilty edifice built and maintained by William Hawkins and Robert Clive, Warren Hastings and the Marquess Wellesley, the brawling editor James Silk Buckingham and the canny merchant Lord Inchcape, and by the great Viceroys, austere Curzon and gentle Halifax. The Raj was finished: scarcely a voice in Britain spoke against independence; scarcely an Indian wanted the British to stay; scarcely a leader in India questioned the sincerity of Britain’s intention to get out. The only questions were “when?” and “how?” Last week the three members of the British Cabinet Mission strove to force Indians to take the ultimate step—agreement on the constitution of an independent state. Much like a judge locking a hung jury in an uncomfortable room, Ministers Lord Pethick-Lawrence, A. V. Alexander and Sir Stafford Cripps prepared for a long Easter weekend in Kashmir’s cool mountains with a message that when they returned “they hoped to find sufficient elements of agreement on which a settlement will be based.” Inside the cream stucco Imperial Hotel, beneath the propeller-blade fans, zealots and schemers argued, intrigued and speculated in more tongues than the Ganges has mouths. When they repeated to each other (as they often did) that now at last Britain’s colonial policy had lumbered to the point where Whitehall really wanted to free India, hope revived. When they reflected (as they often did) that civil war had never been closer, despair reached .its depth. The issue seemed to turn on one man—Mohamed Ali Jinnah. Last week all India watched Jinnah’s words and actions. Man with an Angora Cap. While the Cabinet Mission still talked with India’s leaders, a meeting was held in the courtyard of Anglo-Arabic College across Delhi from the Viceroy’s palace. Green and white banners flaunted unacademic slogans: “Pakistan or die,” “We are determined to fight.” The speeches were equally inflammatory. Said Abdul Qaiyum Khan from the North-West Frontier Province: “I hope the Moslem nation will strike swiftly before [a Hindu] government can be set up in this country. . . . The Moslems will have no alternative but to take out their swords.” Said Sirdar Shaukat Hyat Khan of the Punjab (which furnishes more than half the troops of the Indian regular army): “The Punjabi Moslems . . . will fight for you unto the death.” One of the wealthiest of Moslem leaders, Sir Firozkhan Noon, a Punjab landowner, did not hesitate to wave the Red flag; “If neither [the Hindus nor the British] give [Pakistan] to us . . . if our own course is to fight, and if in that fight we go down, the only course for Moslems is to look to Russia. … I will be the first to lose every rupee I have in order that we may be free in this country.” Five thousand Moslems cheered. Even the women in the purdah enclosure to the left of the platform could be heard-applauding behind their screen. The presiding officer was neither shocked nor carried away by the incendiary speeches. Mohamed Ali Jinnah, clad in black angora cap, a long black sherwani (tunic), and tight-fitting black churidar on his wire-thin legs, smiled his ice-cold smile. He was at the peak of his power. He was the man who might say whether one-fifth of the world’s people would be free. His 5 ft. 11 in. and 119 Ibs. stood between India and independence. Man with a Monocle. After the meeting, Jinnah got out of his political costume as soon as possible, relaxed in his comfortable New Delhi home (he has a more palatial one on Bombay’s Malabar Hill). He changed quickly to a tropical grey suit, blue & black striped tie, black & white sport shoes. Later, as he read to a reporter passages from one of his past speeches, Jinnah screwed a monocle into his right eye. He wears Moslem dress only because his enemies sneer that Jinnah, head of India’s Moslem League, is lax in his religious observances. (”Jinnah does not have a beard; Jinnah does not go to the Mosque; Jinnah drinks whiskey!”) With his perfect English, which he speaks better than his native Gujerati, his slick grey hair and graceful, precise gestures, he might be a European diplomat of the old school. How such a man at a fateful moment in history came to be the spokesman for millions of Moslem peasants, small shopkeepers and soldiers, is a story of love of country and lust for power, a story that twists and turns like a bullock track in the hills. Jinnah was born on Christmas Day, 1876, the eldest son of Jinnah Poonja, a wealthy Karachi dealer in gum arabic and hides. The boy grew up in an atmosphere of wealth among a doting family. After going to school in Bombay and Karachi, young Jinnah, “a tall thin boy in a funny long yellow coat,” as Poetess Sarojini Naidu described him, went to England. At the age of 16 he was admitted to Lincoln’s Inn to read law. Soon after Jinnah returned to India, his father lost his money. Three hard, jobless years followed, until briefs and money started coming in. Man of Unity. In 1940 Bombay Moslems elected him to the Supreme Legislative Council. Jinnah rose steadily in the councils of the nationalists and in the courtrooms of India. He revisited England and there, in 1913, enrolled in the Moslem League. “Typical of his sense of honor,” wrote his rhapsodic biographer Naidu,* “he partook of it something like a sacrament . . . made his two sponsors take a solemn preliminary covenant that loyalty to the Moslem League . . . would in no way and at no time imply even the shadow of disloyalty to the larger national cause to which his life was dedicated.” During World War I Jinnah was a conspicuous worker for Moslem-Hindu unity, persuaded the Congress Party and Moslem League to hold joint sessions, used as his slogan “a free and federated India.” In 1917 he could still attack the idea which later became his obsession. “This [fear of Hindu domination] is a bogey,” he told League members, “. . . to scare you away from the cooperation with the Hindus which is essential for the establishment of self-government.” Man of Discord. The solemn dedication to the “larger national cause” began to waver after the war. The shrewd, suave Moslem saw a shrewd, complexly simple Hindu, Mohandas Gandhi, step into the leadership of the nationalist Congress Party. When Gandhi began to turn the party, once the sounding board for polite talk about independence among a few cautious Indian leaders, into a powerful mass movement, Jinnah drifted out of the fold. Some Hindus think he lost his nationalist ardor when he lost his beautiful Parsi wife (he was 42, she 18, when they were married) after their only child, a daughter, was born. His wife had been a zealous worker for independence. Since then he has shared his Malabar Hill and New Delhi homes with his sister, Fatima. He lives austerely, has no close friends. He disowned his daughter for marrying a rich Christian. Even Poetess Naidu found little warmth in Jinnah: “Somewhat formal and fastidious and a little aloof and imperious of manner. . . . Tall and stately, but thin to the point of emaciation, languid and luxurious of habit, Jinnah’s attenuated form is the deceptive sheath of a spirit of exceptional vitality and endurance.” Man of Threats. That vitality and cold intelligence were turned more & more to the Moslem cause during the late ’30s. After the sweeping Congress Party victories in the 1936-37 provincial elections, Moslems charged that Hindus were trying to monopolize the government. At a crucial meeting in March 1940 Jinnah first publicly plumped for Pakistan.* A hundred thousand followers thronged into the shade of a huge pandal (big tent) in Lahore, where the League was meeting, overflowed into the scorching heat outside, heard Jinnah proclaim over the loudspeaker: “. . . The only course open to us all is to allow the major nations [of India] to separate to their homelands.” He warned that any democratic government in a unified India which gave Moslems a permanent minority “must lead to civil war and the raising of private armies.” An enthusiastic woman follower tore off her veil, came from behind the purdah screen, mounted the speakers’ platform. But Moslem revolutionary ardor was not ready to break with tradition; she was quietly escorted back to purdah by a uniformed guard. When Gandhi led Congress into civil disobedience after the failure of the Cripps mission in 1942, Jinnah ordered his Moslems to take no part, promised a “state of benevolent neutrality” that would not hamper the British in fighting the Japanese. He boasted that if his followers joined Gandhi’s pacifist program, the British would have 500 times more trouble “because we have 500 times more guts than the Hindus.” He recalled past glories of the Mogul Emperor Baber (”The Tiger”) and other Moslem warriors: “The Moslems have been slaves for only 200 years but the Hindus have been slaves for a thousand.” A historic meeting with Gandhi on Malabar Hill in 1944 ended in an impasse. Even Gandhi’s healer, Dinshaw Mehta, who massaged Jinnah for two hours daily during the meetings, could not rub out the wrinkles of obstinacy that made the skinny Moslem uncompromisingly demand Pakistan, made the skinny Hindu as uncompromisingly demand a unified India, with the Pakistan issue postponed until after independence. Man of Pomp. Today Jinnah revels in his one-man show. Nobody in all his Moslem League can be called a No. 2 man, or even No. 8. He delights in the princely processions staged by his followers when he tours the Moslem cities of northern India. His buglers herald his arrival at railway stations. Bands play God Save the King because “that’s the only tune they know.” Victory arches go up, rose petals flutter down from the rooftops, richly bedizened elephants, camels, mounted guards of honor accompany the Hollywood float in which Jinnah rides. Today Jinnah, and not the hated Hindu Gandhi, is prima donna on India’s stage. The gulf between Moslem and Hindu had always been real, but Jinnah dug it deeper. Last Christmas Day, Jinnah’s 69th birthday, he summed up his demand for two nations. “I want to eat the cow the Hindu worships. . . . The Moslem has nothing in common with the Hindu except his slavery to the British.” Economic differences aggravate the irritation. Enterprising Hindus and Parsis almost monopolize banking, insurance, big business. Moslems, slower to welcome Western education, complain bitterly that Hindu factory owners rarely employ a Moslem clerk or foreman even when most workmen are Moslem. Moslems have a real fear that, in a unified India, Hindus would freeze them out of important posts in government and industry. The British, in the years when they still hoped to hold India, gave the religious difference official standing by decreeing, in 1909, that Hindus and Moslems should vote separately. H. N. Brailsford, a sympathetic British student of India, has said: “We labeled them Hindus and Moslems till they forgot they were men.” The British policy of “divide and rule” has been turned by Jinnah to the Pakistan demand “divide and quit.” The Poorest State. The British Raj had given India a unified defense and a unified region of internal free trade. Jinnah would destroy both. His Pakistan, in northwest and northeast India, would be an agricultural state, poor in resources and industry, unless, improbably, the Hindus agreed to turn Hindu Calcutta over to Pakistan. Between mighty Russia to the north and the main body of India to the south, Pakistan would dangle like two withered arms. Only half the population of the area claimed for Pakistan is Moslem. None could claim that to split India in twain would solve the minority problem—in Hindustan there would still be islands of Moslems, in Pakistan large Hindu minorities. Jinnah has not concealed that behind Pakistan lies the ancient Asiatic practice of taking hostages; a Hindu minority in Pakistan could, “by reprisals, be made to answer Tor persecution of Moslems in Hindu India. To warnings that a separate Pakistan would be poor and backward, Jinnah answers: “Why are the Hindus worrying so much about us? Let us stew in our own juice if we are willing. . . . [The Hindus] would be getting rid of the poorest parts of India, so they ought to be glad. The economy would take care of itself in time.” The Plainest Answer. The Congress Party’s position on Pakistan was just as firm as Jinnah’s. The party’s official head, goateed Maulana Abul Kalam Azad, a Moslem who looks like a caricature of a Kentucky colonel, paced up & down in his Delhi quarters last week, smoking a big cigar. “Eighty percent of the Indian people live in villages where Hindus and Moslems get along well together—the only trouble is among the twenty percent living in the cities. This is basically an economic conflict, not religious.” Jawaharlal Nehru made the plainest answer: “Nothing on earth, including the United Nations, is going to bring about the Pakistan of Jinnah’s conception.” The Congress Party might compromise on some plan for a limited Pakistan within a federated India. Jinnah might change his mind—as he has so often before. But if neither gave way, the British Cabinet Mission would probably impose a constitution on India despite the threats of civil war. When a British official in Delhi last week said, “This is the most important British diplomatic effort of the century,” he had in mind the danger that a failure to settle the Indian problem would keep the whole East in turmoil and disturb international relations throughout the world by presenting Rus sia with an opportunity to increase her influence among Asia’s people. Even if settlement of the constitutional issue resulted in an independent, unified India, the future was none too bright. Famine was tightening its grip on the subcontinent. Sir A. Ramaswami Mudaliar warned of “ten million dead on the streets of India” unless he could buy four million tons of grain this year in the U.S.* Independence alone would not answer the food problem, which would recur until India had more irrigation, more fertilizer, better agricultural methods and more industry. Many Indian leaders looked to the U.S. for machinery and technical advice. The most practical immediate step would be a U.S. loan to Britain, which would permit London to pay off much of its wartime debt to India and to give India the dollars she needs for imports from the U.S. Where Akbar Failed. If India, with its diverse tongues, its anachronistic princes and princelings, its millennium of dependence on the rule of outsiders, could become a nation in the Western sense, the achievement would be one of the greatest triumphs of history. In E. M. Forster’s A Passage to India, a Moslem character, Dr. Aziz, recalled that the great Mogul Emperor Akbar had worked with tolerance and wisdom to unite India, had even attempted to devise a new unifying faith. But, says Dr. Aziz: “Nothing embraces the whole of India—nothing, nothing, and that was Akbar’s mistake.” This people without a common denominator are at the same time the most bound and the most free in the world. They are bound by poverty, by caste, by religious practices that often descend to the crassest animism, by political ignorance and by disease. Yet they have been free enough to produce great contemporary leaders and thinkers. Nobody, not even the British Raj in the days of its strength, has regimented the Indians, who wear a thousand local costumes, speak 225 languages, and follow highly individual patterns of behavior. An Indian is free to sleep on the sidewalks of Madras when he feels tired, or to declare himself a saint and sit waiting for disciples by the burning ghats of Benares; or to send out a seven-year-old child with a dead baby dangling from its hand to beg in Calcutta’s Howrah railroad station. No one who looked at India’s anarchic scene last week could believe that Jinnah had created all the obstacles to India’s freedom, but in the present crisis he had come to symbolize them. The Indian sun cast Jinnah’s long thin shadow not only across the negotiations in Delhi but over India’s future. * At 67 plump Madame Naidu is still a member of the Congress Party’s Working Committee, is considered India’s topmost orator. She paints her toenails bright red. * Pakistan, a dream of Moslem students before it became a political issue, was originally concocted from P for Punjab, A for the Afghans of the North-West Frontier, K for Kashmir, S for Sind, “pure” in Tan from Urdu, with “stan” Baluchistan. means “Pak” also “Land of the means Pure.” Last week the League convention defined it to embrace Punjab, Sind, Baluchistan, North-West Frontier Province (all in northwestern In dia), Assam and most of Bengal (in the north east). Jinnah has even advocated a thousand-mile corridor across Hindustan to connect the two parts. * In 1943’s Bengal famine 1.5 million starved. From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Sat May 2 18:45:30 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 14:15:30 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] If and but are not good in public good. In-Reply-To: <61164a90905020236w4a018d22pb2932d98f68b0e78@mail.gmail.com> References: <61164a90905020236w4a018d22pb2932d98f68b0e78@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <65be9bf40905020615x6d05c855r1b381d0bf93ebc7c@mail.gmail.com> Dear Rajen, Could you please let me know, where, exactly in India can we find an example where 'good governance' being implemented? Or is this just your wish list? On Sat, May 2, 2009 at 10:36 AM, Rajen Uppinangadi wrote: > Dear Taha, > >   Ifs and butts do not deliver the good governance and it is not bogey as > you would love to assume. Good governance means use of funds in all the > regions for public usage, such as health care., education, training in skill > sets,drinking water to all, less spending on the modern kings of democracy, > security for every citizen , not to MP or MLA. ( I would say let him > sacrifice his life for common man.!) Most importantly, no faith based > funding, but need based works wil go a long way, the excuse that we do not > have funds is patently false as we waste whatever we have on luxury of our > netas. > > With that goal, no sacchar committee report or any other report is needed as > all of us see the plight of the poor in society day in and out.Poor in > society belong to all faiths, more to society. > > > Regards, > > > Rajen. > From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Sat May 2 19:03:58 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 14:33:58 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] National wastage system.? In-Reply-To: <61164a90905020241w35ccd35ds9c66d9ee1b79965c@mail.gmail.com> References: <61164a90905020241w35ccd35ds9c66d9ee1b79965c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <65be9bf40905020633x167013f8k702b3c5043d75a65@mail.gmail.com> Dear Rajen, All that is commendable however my questions were about a more mundane matter. They were about plastic tokens. I would be grateful if you could share your thoughts about what seems like a whim to invest such a huge amount of public money on a national identity card. When even in so called developed countries like UK, people are asking questions about the validity of such an investment. Do you think we would be better off as a nation in 2011, when the survey related to the national population register would be complete? If yes, then in what manner? How will a NPR benefit the country as a whole? How do we know that funds appropriated for such an exercise will not be directed for purposes of political patronage? What about margin of error by the data entry people? When even in this general election we have hundreds of thousands of instances of names being fudged, addresses being misplaced and a submission by a minister himself that it is not possible to identify all the voters. How are we going to identify all Indians? How are we going to categorize people who are undocumented as Indians in the first place? What about people belonging to the third sex? What about migrant population? What about beggars? Who will document them? How will they be documented? There are 300-400 million transient population in India. IDP's add to this figure. If on the one hand there seems to be no thought by the policy makers on this issue, then don't you think, that this whole identity card business seems like one more big scam, a money making enterprise, inaugurated by the NDA and followed by the UPA in the name of providing security to the people?? Even the most fundamental issue, like the identity of person is still not resolved, why are we being fed this propaganda that carrying a card will help us identify ourselves as ourselves? Taha From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Sat May 2 19:10:12 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 19:10:12 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: [humanrights-movement:1493] Narendra "Killer" Modi: Some Glimmer of Hope! In-Reply-To: <651974.11091.qm@web95215.mail.in2.yahoo.com> References: <651974.11091.qm@web95215.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1f9180970905020640k6a60f913oa03a46f112670ff3@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Sukla Sen Date: Sat, May 2, 2009 at 9:46 AM Subject: [humanrights-movement:1493] Narendra "Killer" Modi: Some Glimmer of Hope! To: humanrights-movement at googlegroups.com, chairnhrc at nic.in, covdnhrc at nic.in, NHRC , sukla.sen at gmail.com, insaaniyatlist at yahoogroups.com, hope at topica.com, csdmumbai at yahoogroups.com [The brazenness of this vile person is really astounding. So is the pusillanimity of the "system"! He goes about organising murder, loot, rape and arson of people of the state of which he is the Chief Minister - the people to whom he is supposed to provide the protection of the law and the state. He further tells the victimised that they are fortunate that the awareness(!), that triggered and drove the carnage, has not yet adequately spread to the villages! Not only does he deprive the relief camps housing the hundreds of thousands of hunted and terror-stricken, put up through incredibly courageous private efforts, of any state help as much as he can and keep these under most appalling conditions; he also calls these as a baby manufacturing factories! He of course openly went about blocking all attempts at booking and punishing the foot soldiers of the carnage as much as he could. When the state was found directly complicit in murdering one Sohrabuddin Shaikh and his wife, presumably after rape, and also Tulsi Prajapati – a friend of Shaikh; and a senior police officer, a close confidante of his, had to be put behind the bars at the intervention of the Supreme Court, he openly challenged the "system", in a widely televised public meeting, to hang him if it can! Now, in full page newspaper advertisements, he calls the directive of the Supreme Court to the Special Investigation Team (SIT), formed at its instance under the impact of long drawn out brave struggles of the victims and human rights activists, to investigate his role in the gory bloodbath that he had presided over, a "conspiracy", and nothing less!] I/III.http://www.hindu.com/2009/05/02/stories/2009050255171000.htm *Contempt petition against Modi* J. Venkatesan *Hearing next week, says Chief Justice* ------------------------------ * Court had asked SIT to probe complaint against Modi on post-Godhra riots Modi alleged the order was passed in conspiracy with Minister Kapil Sibal * ------------------------------ New Delhi: A contempt of court petition has been filed in the Supreme Court against Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi for his alleged remarks that the April 27 order asking the Special Investigation Team (SIT) to look into a complaint against Mr. Modi and others was passed in a mala fide manner in conspiracy with the Congress. On Friday, Prashant Bhushan, *amicus curiae* in the petition filed by Jakia Nasim Ahesan, wife of the former Congress MP, Ehsan Jafri [who was killed during the Gujarat riots of 2002], made a ‘mention’ before a three-Judge Bench of Chief Justice K.G. Balakrishnan, Justices P. Sathasivam and J.M. Panchal for early listing of the contempt petition. The CJI told Mr. Bhushan that the matter would be listed next week. On April 27, a Bench of Justices Arijit Pasayat and A.K. Ganguly had asked SIT to probe a complaint dated June 8, 2006 against Mr. Modi that he and his Cabinet colleagues orchestrated the post-Godhra communal riots in 2002 in connivance with police officials and senior bureaucrats, and submit its report in three months. In the present contempt petition, Mr. Bhushan said Mr. Modi, while reacting to the Supreme Court order, had alleged that it was passed in conspiracy with Union Minister Kapil Sibal in the Congress-led government. He said it was clear that Mr. Modi had made very serious allegations against the Supreme Court which “are totally scandalous and unfounded and what is worse is that they have been made in order to derive political advantage in the elections.” He said this technique of Mr. Modi making contemptuous statement and allegations was not new. In December 2007, the Supreme Court was forced to issue contempt notice to Mr. Modi for having made a public speech obliquely approving the extra judicial killing of Sohrabuddin Sheikh and seeking votes on that basis. This was done when the petition seeking action against police officers who were involved in the extra judicial killing of Sohrabuddin was pending before this court. The petition said: “In these circumstances, it is imperative in the interest of justice that Mr. Modi be brought to book and held accountable for his grossly contemptuous action. If this is not done, he will be further encouraged to make any kind of wild allegations and statement against this court for his political ends.” As *amicus curiae* appointed by the court “it is my duty to bring this matter to the notice of the court for appropriate directions,” Mr. Bhushan said. He sought a direction to initiate contempt of court proceedings against Mr. Modi for his alleged remarks. II. http://www.facebook.com/ext/share.php?sid=101442997138&h=ixsLX&u=WJL9j&ref=nf Nemesis catches up with Modi By Kuldip Nayar Friday, 01 May, 2009 | 02:58 AM PST | THERE is a saying that justice may be delayed but is not out of reach. The wheel of fortune has turned slowly to expose Narendra Modi, chief minister of Gujarat, the state where some 4,000 Muslims were killed seven years ago. It has been an open secret that he and his Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) members were involved in the pogrom, with the connivance of the state machinery, including the police. Modi would say in defence: where is the proof? He would also say that what happened in Gujarat was in retaliation to the burning of pilgrims in a train at Godhra, near Ahmedabad. There are too many versions of this to solely hold the Muslims responsible. The dust was somewhat cleared by the Supreme Court of India when it appointed the Special Investigating Team (SIT) to probe the matter last year. The complaint against Modi was that he and his cabinet colleagues orchestrated the post-Godhra communal riots in 2002 in connivance with police officials and senior bureaucrats. The complaint filed by advocate Sanjay Parikh on behalf of Jakia Nasim Ahesan Hussain Jafri, the widow of an ex-Congress MP who was killed by a mob allegedly at the instigation of Modi, the 'architect of a criminal conspiracy to subvert constitutional governance and the rule of law'. SIT, a sort of tribunal, is presided over by a retired CBI director, R.K. Raghavan, who is widely respected. His probe, it is conceded, will be fair, just and independent. The BJP is uncomfortable. The Congress is overjoyed for apparent reasons. And the people feel jubilant that the perpetrators of Gujarat may be brought to book. The state, much less Modi, expected such a turn of events in the investigation. A human rights activist, Teesta Setalvad, who has doggedly pursued the culprits in the Gujarat killings, had submitted a petition on behalf of Ms Jafri. The petition was filed as an FIR with the police in Ahmedabad to contend that the killings were pre-planned and that the authorities did little to protect the victims. The police refused to register the FIR. She went to the court which took little notice of the lapse in legality. The matter came to the Supreme Court where the lawyer appearing on behalf of the state of Gujarat said that all the information, whether registered or not, could be sent to the SIT. It was bravado. But it has served the purpose of justice. The whole matter, including unregistered FIRs, is before the Raghavan tribunal. Modi is now in the dock. He would have to disprove his involvement before the SIT. Many skeletons are bound to come out of the closet. Since then many retired police officials have admitted the involvement of the government. The immediate reaction of Modi has been that of silence. The BJP’s former foreign minister, Yashwant Sinha, in a TV interview, did not react to the Supreme Court’s order but praised Modi for his developmental work in the state. One cannot expect anything else. The party’s youthful brigade is at a loss to make comments because it has been vying with one another in its projection of Modi as the BJP’s prime ministerial candidate after L.K. Advani. They are all well-read, sensible persons. But their blind faith in Modi makes one wonder. How can they or, for that matter, any sensible person think of putting Modi in any responsible position when there are charges of his involvement in the killing and the looting of Muslims in Gujarat? Whatever the BJP thinking, India is a pluralistic country, however, wanting in many ways. The party does not appreciate the secular temperament of the people. But when the upper-middle class or the corporate leaders — there was a meeting of top industrialists in Ahmedabad to back Modi — throw to the wind the basic values of pluralism on which India’s democratic structure stands, they prefer pelf to principle. Sitting in their air-conditioned offices, they do not know how the mind of the nation ticks. Modi may be an efficient administrator but he has also the blood of at least 4,000 Muslims on his hands. To the unthinking corporate leaders, I can say only one thing: forgive them Lord for they know not what they are doing. I was a Rajya Sabha member when the Gujarat carnage took place in 2002. It was devastating news. Nobody could find any reason to explain Modi’s role. The BJP criticised him in private, but dared not say anything in public lest the party should take disciplinary action. Before Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee visited Ahmedabad for the first time after the carnage, I told him that he should have dismissed Modi straightaway. After not having done so, I said, Vajpayee should take Modi to task before the public whenever he visited the refugee camps and felt relieved when he did so. He lost his temper in many places and admonished Modi. But the youthful brigade of the BJP which travelled with him from Ahmedabad to Goa brainwashed him so much that Vajpayee attacked Islam at the meeting he addressed. He hardly talked about the pitiable conditions in the camps he had seen or the tales of murder and rape he had heard. His entire speech was to run down Islam. It seemed that the party had taken over the prime minister, whatever his feelings or impressions. Till today, the BJP has not apologised for the killings in Gujarat. The Congress has behaved better. It has not only apologised for the killing of 3,000 Sikhs in Delhi in broad daylight in 1984, but has also denied party tickets in the Lok Sabha elections to both Jagdish Tytler and Sajjan Kumar, reportedly involved in the riots which took place at that time. The party has given rehabilitation grants to the uprooted and to the victims of 1984. The Modi government has not given even a single rupee to any Muslim for rehabilitation. Whether the probe against Modi will affect polling in the current election is the question being asked increasingly. There is no doubt that the Supreme Court’s order will dent the BJP’s standing. However, it is difficult to assess the loss in terms of votes. Yet the damage to the party’s image will be immense. Other political parties have gone to town to attack the party. The tragedy is that neither Modi nor the BJP is willing to make amends. They should realise that Gujarat, like the demolition of the Babri mosque, is a millstone around their neck. They have to carry it for years to come. The writer is a leading journalist based in Delhi. III. http://www.tehelka.com/story_main41.asp?filename=Ws090509Ram_Puniyani.asp *Gujarat Carnage-Role of Narendra Modi* *Ram Puniyani* In the worst ever communal carnage of this century, the post Godhra Gujarat violence, over 2000 innocents lost their lives. Most of the survivors not only lost their livelihood and shelter but also have been degraded to the status of second class citizens. Most of the perpetrators of violence, have not only gone scot-free; many of them had an upward political mobility. The efforts of the victims and human rights activists had yielded very few results and majority of the victims are grieving and living with the scars of their losses. In the whole process, the direction of Apex court to the Special Investigation Team (SIT) to probe the role of Modi, his cabinet colleagues and other top functionaries of state and those involved in violence, has come as a sigh of hope. The court gave the direction (April 27, 2002) in response to appeal by Jakia Ahsan Jafri, the widow of slain Congress MP, Ahsan Jafri. One complements the courage and doggedness of Jakia Jafri for all her efforts. This comes in the backdrop of the arrest of Maya Kodnani, Modi’s cabinet colleague who instigated and led the carnage in Naroda Patia. Just to recall, Ahsan Jafri ex Congress MP had made frantic calls to all those concerned but the police help was not forthcoming to save him from the mob assembled by the VHP-Bajrang Dal and others, the lead players in Gujarat carnage. So far the official inquiry committees have not pointed its finger on the role of Modi, while the Human Rights Commission report (2002) pointed out that state machinery failed to protect the innocent people. Most of the citizen’s inquiry committees by human rights activists have pointed out about the role of state administration and Modi in particular in the violence. In the major such report of ‘Citizens tribunal’ headed by retired Justice Krishna Ayer and Justice P.B.Sawant, (Crime against Humanity), a Minister in Modi’s Government Haren Pandya gave description of the meeting which Modi had called on the evening of Godhra train accident. As per Pandya Modi instructed all the top state officials to let the Hindu anger not be curtailed in the aftermath of Godhra. Modi popularized the thesis that Godhra train was burnt in a pre planned manner by the international terrorism, in collusion with the ISI and local Muslims. Infamously, he announced that every action has an opposite reaction, meaning that now Hindus will take revenge and state should sit back and let the opposite reaction take its course. Same Harem Pandya was murdered later and his father stated that his murder had taken place on the instance of Modi. While the carnage was on, the Central government, NDA led by BJP, kept watching and barring some stray noises by PM Vajpayee and Home Minister Advani, the carnage went on spilling the rivers of blood. Despite Modi’s claim that he controlled the violence in 72 hours, it took months for the din to settle. Modi’s acts of omission were more than obvious. Now as matters stand our legal system has lots of loopholes and most of the guilty are not punished. On the contrary, in the case of Gujarat, Modi ‘succeeded’ in splitting the Gujarat society along religious lines, and he took advantage of the communal divide by riding back to power and strengthened his vice like grip on the administration and state as a whole. And now, In Gujarat the matters are not seen as guilty versus innocents, they are seen as Hindu versus Muslim. While on one hand Modi is being projected as the future Prime minister of India, not only by many captains of industry but also by the party sustaining on the fodder of communal divide, the BJP. While most of the people with plural values and concern for national integration are welcoming the direction of Apex court, the others doing electoral calculations point out that this investigation will enhance the standing of Modi. BJP spokesman also pointed out that this direction of Apex court will be helpful to the BJP in electoral arena. The nation is standing on a tragic point where the communal polarization brought in by communal violence and anti-minority propaganda has resulted in the loss of sensitivity of a section of society towards the miseries and travails of large part of our own country, our own nation. In response to court directive, Modi asserted that he is ready to go to jail. This assertion is the outcome of his knowledge that in the polarzed state he will benefit despite his ciminal acts. The observation so far has been that Modi has shown no remorse for what happened in Gujarat, forget apologizing for the same. The path to power for the practitioners of divisive politics is through the rivers of blood, and they know it. So should we press for justice or fall in the trap of electoral arithmetic? The point is if we loose our basic human morality, if we compromise on the issue of rule of law, what is the worth of values of Constitution? Tragedy is not that the nation is knowing the guilt of the ilk of Modi and is watching helplessly, the tragedy is that our justice delivery system has been eroded from bottom upwards, where justice is sacrificed at the drop of a hat. The communal mind set cultivated by divisive politics, the large section of state machinery being guided by considerations other than the values of constitution is a matter of deep concern. It is because of this total communalization of state apparatus that the Supreme Court had to reprimand Modi, time and over again. It is because of this that the major cases were shifted out from Gujarat. It is the same place where Zahira Sheikh changed her versions times and over again, lured by the lucre offered to her by BJP workers. Modi bloating his chest while sitting over the corpses of thousands, is a symptom of deeper rot which has set in the society. By now first the cases are not investigated properly due to communal considerations, then when the reports nail the culprits, many of them are not touched for political considerations. Rather than having remorse and anguish on what happened to say that this Apex court direction will benefit BJP, is the most immoral and base statement which only heartless inhuman characters can make. Peace Is Doable ------------------------------ Get an email ID as yourname at ymail.com or yourname at rocketmail.com. Click here. --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "humanrights movement" group. To post to this group, send email to humanrights-movement at googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to humanrights-movement+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/humanrights-movement?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~--- -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Sat May 2 22:13:16 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 17:43:16 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] MNIC: Parliament Questions - 10 Message-ID: <65be9bf40905020943s5671f5dyc53420a6c80ac899@mail.gmail.com> http://164.100.47.132/psearch/QResult13.aspx?qref=9520 GOVERNMENT OF INDIA MINISTRY OF LAW , JUSTICE AND COMPANY AFFAIRS LOK SABHA UNSTARRED QUESTION NO 2874 ANSWERED ON 10.08.2000 PHOTO IDENTITY CARDS IN GUJARAT 2874 . Shri CHANDRESH PATEL KORDIA (a) whether all the voters in Gujarat have been provided Photo identity cards, particularly in Jamnagar district; (b) if so, the details thereof; and (c) the time by which every voter is likely to be provided the Photo identity card? ANSWER MINISTER OF STATE OF THE MINISTRY OF INFORMATION AND BROADCASTING (INDEPENDENT CHARGE) AND THE MINISTER OF STATE OF THE MINISTRY OF LAW, JUSTICE AND COMPANY AFFAIRS (INDEPENDENT CHARGE) (SHRI ARUN JAITLEY) (a) No, Sir. (b) and (c) : Out of the total of 2,96,31,636 voters in Gujarat, the number of persons issued with defect free photo identity cards so far is 2,31,77,051 (78.22%). In Jamnagar district, out of 10,77,594 voters, 8,15,403 have been issued defect free cards. In this connection, it may be noted that the process of registration of voters and preparation of photo identity cards of voters are continuous and ongoing processes. It is not, therefore, possible to cover all the voters under the scheme of issue of photo identity cards at any given point of time. From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Sat May 2 22:15:07 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 17:45:07 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] News Items posted on the net on Multipurpose National Identity Cards-115 Message-ID: <65be9bf40905020945l538074e7n10d35881b4dcfe86@mail.gmail.com> http://www.hrdc.net/sahrdc/hrfeatures/HRF169.htm Multi-Purpose National Identity Cards Protection or restriction of rights? In May 2007, the Indian Government launched a pilot project on Multi-purpose National Identity Card (MNIC) and issued cards in select regions of the country in contemplation of later implementing a nation-wide identification system. The Ministry of Home Affairs (MHA) claims the identification system will strengthen national security while facilitating efficiency in e-governance. The system will gather the personal data of Indian citizens—including gender, age, marital status, permanent address, names of family members—into a national register, the maintenance of which will be outsourced to a group of technology corporations. Each citizen will be assigned a specific number that will be used as a reference for various socio-economic databases including passports, driving licenses, and for accessing health care and education. The government hopes that the MNICs, which will require regular editing and maintenance, will ease interactions between the State and the citizen, and keep track of illegal immigrants. However, upon further examination of the MNIC system, it is clear that it has flaws that could jeopardise the fundamental rights of India’s citizens. Impact on the right to privacy The right to privacy of citizens will be greatly compromised if MNICs are made compulsory. Although there is sometimes a tension between individual privacy rights and national security, international law and India’s domestic law expressly set a standard in tort law and through constitutional law to protect an individual’s privacy from unlawful invasion. Under the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR), ratified by India, an individual’s right to privacy is protected from arbitrary or unlawful interference by the state. The Supreme Court also held the right to privacy to be implicit under article 21 of the Indian Constitution in Rajgopal v. State of Tamil Nadu. Moreover, India has enacted a number of laws that provide some protection for privacy. For example the Hindu Marriage Act, the Copyright Act, Juvenile Justice (Care and Protection of Children) Act, 2000 and the Code of Criminal Procedure all place restrictions on the release of personal information. Privacy is a key concern with respect to the MNIC scheme as all of an individual’s personal information will be stored in one database where the possibility of corruption and exploitation of data is far greater than when having the information disbursed. Risks that arise from this centralisation include possible errors in the collection of information, recording of inaccurate data, corruption of data from anonymous sources, and unauthorised access to or disclosure of personal information. Other countries with national identification systems have confronted numerous problems with similar risks such as trading and selling of information, and India, which has no generally established data protection laws such as the U.S. Federal Privacy Statute or the European Directive on Data Protection, is ill-equipped to deal with such problems. The centralised nature of data collection inherent in the MNIC proposal only heightens the risk of misuse of personal information and therefore potentially violates privacy rights. In consideration of the risks involved in the creation of a centralised database of personal information, it is imperative that such a programme not be established without the proper mechanisms to ensure the security of each individual’s privacy rights. Unfortunately, India’s proposed MNIC programme lacks any provision for judicial review at the present time. Without credible and independent oversight, there is a risk of ‘mission creep’ for MNICs; the government may add features and additional data to the MNIC database bureaucratically and reflexively, without re-evaluating the effects on privacy in each instance. Discrimination as an outcome Furthermore, the implementation of a national identification system represents a vast increase in police power—a troubling prospect given the state of Indian policing and the excessive control of the Executive in its functioning. Indian police and other security forces have a history of abusing their power, from torturing those in their custody and setting up fake ‘encounter deaths’ to more mundane abuses like petty corruption and harassment. Such police abuses typically go unpunished. Thus it does not take a large leap of imagination to expect that some in the security services would abuse the MNIC programme—whether to discriminate against minorities, carry out arbitrary arrests and detentions, facilitate the targetting of opposition groups by political parties in power, and perhaps even blackmail people. According to Simon Davies of Privacy International, national ID cards in virtually every country where they have been introduced have facilitated discrimination. India need only consider the history of national identity cards in other countries and the history of police misconduct within its own borders to realise the potential threats that the MNIC scheme poses. Any perceived advantages of the MNIC programme must therefore be weighed against these very real costs. As the former Privacy Commissioner for the Australian state of Victoria Paul Chadwick argued, the responsibility of proving whether one is acting lawfully or not should be on the state, not on the citizen. He gives examples of precautions taken to prevent abuse of police power in countries with centralised personal identification databases including parliamentary scrutiny, judicial review, statutory regulators, and protection for whistleblowers, but he argues that even these mechanisms are not enough to completely keep bureaucracies honest. In the United States, there is at present a debate concerning the implementation of the REAL ID Act, which is meant to regulate all U.S. state-issued identification cards at a national level. As Professor Mark Rotenberg of Georgetown Law Center explained in a report to the Electronic Privacy Information Center, new stronger precautions are needed because of evidence of abuse of police power through security measures such as the REAL ID Act and the Patriot Act. Rotenberg suggests that an effective way to monitor how government uses the information it collects is to have entities independent of the government conduct oversight, and he adds that the potential abuse of police power will remain until there is effective judicial oversight of the use of the collected information. Issue of access Although a widely-implemented MNIC programme risks violating individual privacy rights and facilitating security forces’ violation of other fundamental rights, an MNIC programme that leaves some people outside its reach carries its own risks of denying human rights. The MHA seeks to make the possession of the card a prerequisite for citizens who wish to avail of certain governmental schemes, such as passports, driving licenses, health care, school enrolment and the like, in order to encourage all citizens to obtain one. Thus, no card, no services. Switching to an MNIC system for the delivery of social services could result in the denial of fundamental rights of equality to Indians left without a card. Under Articles 13 and 14 of the Indian Constitution, the fundamental rights of citizens must be protected by the state, and the government is required to follow a policy consistent with the goals of equal opportunity and justice for all. Millions of Indians are at risk of never receiving MNICs and therefore may be excluded from accessing certain services, denied the freedom to travel, or prohibited from certain employment opportunities. The likelihood that MNICs will not reach all of India’s one billion plus citizens is high considering the government’s historic inability to account for everyone within the national borders. This is illustrated by the shortcomings of India’s electoral photo identity card (EPIC). According to records obtained from the Election Commission by the Hindustan Times, over 186 million Indian citizens eligible to vote do not posses EPICs even though the programme was created over a decade ago. Proponents of the MNIC programme argue that people without MNICs could use alternative means of identification in order to obtain benefits until they are incorporated into the MNIC system. But those without MNICs—most likely the poor and members of tribal groups—would almost certainly also lack other sufficient forms of identification for the simple reason that they have never needed any. There is also the related issue concerning directive principles of the state policy in Part IV of the Indian Constitution. Among other things, the directive principles provide that the government should make laws with a view to ensuring for each citizen equal rights to an adequate livelihood, and social and economic equality and justice. Denying minority tribal groups or the rural poor certain government services and entitlements based on the lack of an MNIC is contrary to the guidelines set out by the directive principles. The net result of the MNIC programme may be a denial of access to government services in such a disproportionate and discriminatory manner that it would amount to violation of the fundamental right to equality. Conclusion The concerns mentioned above do not necessarily mean that India’s planned MNIC programme must be discarded, but they signal a need for oversight to protect the privacy and equality rights of India’s citizens from the inherent risks of a national database for personal information. Implementing and maintaining the MNIC system will generate high costs along with risks to safety, security, privacy, freedom, and liberty. MNICs should not become compulsory until there is an established judicial overview to ensure that the privacy rights of India’s citizens are not unlawfully violated. It is important that India confront and manage these risks and consider all alternatives before implementing the MNIC programme nationwide. Human Rights Features From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Sun May 3 08:58:16 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 08:58:16 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] A Conditional Beacon Of Hope- by R B SREEKUMAR Message-ID: <1f9180970905022028t7caa18fck1be22e82a0aa9441@mail.gmail.com> "..Due to the subversion of justice, the justice process has been grossly delayed. But I’m optimistic. We started from zero, but we’ve made progress, even if miniscule. The Raghavan Committee is not as dismal as the Nanavati Commission, which was a bunch of clerks writing notes in favour of Modi. Gujarat minister Maya Kodnani was arrested on the basis of IPS officer Rahul Sharma’s affidavit, which was ignored earlier by the Gujarat Police and the Nanavati commission. The Raghavan Committee is far better than the shoddy investigators we’ve had before. Modi might not be afraid today, but if truth prevails, many heads will roll...". *A Conditional Beacon Of Hope* *http://www.tehelka.com/story_main41.asp?filename=Ne090509proscons.asp* *The apex court’s order to probe Modi’s role boosts secular morale* [image: image] *R B SREEKUMAR* THE RECENT order of the Supreme Court asking the Special Investigation Team (SIT) to inquire into the alleged role of Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi in the post-Godhra communal riots of 2002 is a laudable decision. Firstly, it vindicates the commitment of the judiciary to justice and rule of law. Unfortunately, of late, political parties are getting elected through democracy but their hidden agenda is to implement monocracy. Even if the BJP repeatedly gets electoral verdicts in its favour in Gujarat, their mass violence and genocide cannot be forgiven. Today, we can be rest assured that the judiciary will take cognisance of such travesties. Secondly, the decision strengthens the morale of the secular section of the society. [image: image] *Illustration:*ANAND NAOREM When the SIT reinvestigates Modi’s role in the Gujarat riots, they will find a treasure of unchallengeable evidence that points to the Chief Minister hatching the anti-minority carnage. His government, violating all police regulations, had paraded the dead bodies of 59 persons killed in the Godhra fire incident of February 27, 2002, through the bylanes of Ahmedabad. There was a frenzied crowd of at least 5,000 people shouting sacrilegious, anti-Islamic slogans. What was the justification for this? Was that not an organised attempt to provoke violence? The Gujarat government also took no action to prevent communal riots from erupting, killing close to 2,000 people. Imposition of curfew on February 28, 2002 was delayed up to 2 pm by then Police Commissioner PC Pande, to facilitate the parading of dead bodies. Even today, Modi says he has no regrets. He’s a servant of the Constitution and the carnage happened under him. Is he not responsible? It is a Herculean task to prove Modi’s involvement with direct evidence because he did not keep any minutes of the meetings during riots; most of the instructions were highly illegal. On the forenoon of February 28, then DGP K Chakravarthy told me that he was feeling helpless because the Chief Minister has told him that “Hindu ire would come up for the next three days, please give a free play for this Hindu revengefulness”. Even the TEHELKA investigation shows three BJP members confessing that Modi had given them three days to carry out the operation. I hope the SIT will bring out such circumstantial evidence against Modi. It’s a Herculean task to prove Modi’s involvement because he didn’t keep any minutes of meetings during riots The SC’s move is welcome, but I admit it all depends on the SIT now. Worryingly, former CBI director RK Raghavan and his five-member SIT are handicapped because the Gujarat police is the one conducting investigations for them. The police officers are at the beck and call of the state, and if they don’t follow orders, they are penalised. In the last two years, 12 IPS officers have been superseded. Ideally, independent officers should be put in charge. Also, in most cases, witnesses are turning hostile. This is not a simple change of mind — there are strong forces at work here. When IAS and IPS officers, protected by the All India Services Act, shiver in their pants to testify, why blame civilians? They must be protected better. Due to the subversion of justice, the justice process has been grossly delayed. But I’m optimistic. We started from zero, but we’ve made progress, even if miniscule. The Raghavan Committee is not as dismal as the Nanavati Commission, which was a bunch of clerks writing notes in favour of Modi. Gujarat minister Maya Kodnani was arrested on the basis of IPS officer Rahul Sharma’s affidavit, which was ignored earlier by the Gujarat Police and the Nanavati commission. The Raghavan Committee is far better than the shoddy investigators we’ve had before. Modi might not be afraid today, but if truth prevails, many heads will roll. *Sreekumar was Addl DGP, Gujarat Intelligence, in 2002* -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com Sun May 3 12:32:37 2009 From: rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com (Rajen Uppinangadi) Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 12:32:37 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] If and but are not good in public good. In-Reply-To: <65be9bf40905020615x6d05c855r1b381d0bf93ebc7c@mail.gmail.com> References: <61164a90905020236w4a018d22pb2932d98f68b0e78@mail.gmail.com> <65be9bf40905020615x6d05c855r1b381d0bf93ebc7c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <61164a90905030002ved9e422paed32fdaecd4503@mail.gmail.com> Dear Taha, your query is like SHOW ME JANNATH, but all that I can say is jannath and jahannum is here to stay, it is for us to lessen the space for jahannum, more for jannath, by our efforts.Good governance is there but partly vitiated by corruption, partly by nepotism, partly by biases and all that greed of the humans, but hope is eternal, to make efforts to reach out to every citizen and make his life worthwhile. Good governance covers three major aspects of life, maintainance, preservation and removal of obstacles in rule of laws, in broad outline, be it in legislation, in executive and in judiciary, which are in line with governance with rule of laws. To blame only any one section say, the legislature, that of MPs and MLAs is ridiculous as the executive is equally accountable as is the judiciary.If we as citizens do not understand that we are the system, we are governing ourselves and we are not responsible enough to meladies in our life, we can not expect jannath to be had in our life. Every citizen today , over the years has got ACCUSTOMED TO DELAY IN day to day work, gets his work done by graft or influence, thus delay breeds corruption, and executive arm of democracy is still worse who have hijab of rule book to hide behind all the crimes. Any good democracy has over the years, has de-archived, de-classified all its records say about 30 years from today, till 1979, so that each function of legislation, execution and judiciary, it ommissions and commissons become public knowledge, future mistakes are avoidable as the past shows the mistakes along with good decisions and nothing is SECRET anymore. Only our democracy is one where even the reports of inquiry commissions are not even tabled, let alone de-classified.! Now we can observe how the rule book is used even to subvert the RTI act by the individuals in legislation, executive or judiciary, judges hesitant to declare their assets on flimsiest grounds. Nethas returning in the nominations for elections with crores as assets, without details of how they earned it, raids displaying filthy sums with assets of executives, IAS, IFS officers with crores getting away with impunity. Rule of laws can not allow this jahannum.? On Sat, May 2, 2009 at 6:45 PM, Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com>wrote: > Dear Rajen, > > Could you please let me know, where, exactly in India can we find an > example where 'good governance' being implemented? Or is this just > your wish list? > > On Sat, May 2, 2009 at 10:36 AM, Rajen Uppinangadi > wrote: > > Dear Taha, > > > > Ifs and butts do not deliver the good governance and it is not bogey as > > you would love to assume. Good governance means use of funds in all the > > regions for public usage, such as health care., education, training in > skill > > sets,drinking water to all, less spending on the modern kings of > democracy, > > security for every citizen , not to MP or MLA. ( I would say let him > > sacrifice his life for common man.!) Most importantly, no faith based > > funding, but need based works wil go a long way, the excuse that we do > not > > have funds is patently false as we waste whatever we have on luxury of > our > > netas. > > > > With that goal, no sacchar committee report or any other report is needed > as > > all of us see the plight of the poor in society day in and out.Poor in > > society belong to all faiths, more to society. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Rajen. > > > From rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com Sun May 3 12:40:06 2009 From: rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com (Rajen Uppinangadi) Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 12:40:06 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] National wastage system.? In-Reply-To: <65be9bf40905020633x167013f8k702b3c5043d75a65@mail.gmail.com> References: <61164a90905020241w35ccd35ds9c66d9ee1b79965c@mail.gmail.com> <65be9bf40905020633x167013f8k702b3c5043d75a65@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <61164a90905030010j38f39e9dq6951bcebee8bb4b@mail.gmail.com> Dear Taha, no piece of plastic or paper can give me national identity unless I identify myself with the nation of which I am citizen. A Arundhathi Roy and such others, born in the nation declaring herself as sovereign nation herself, but using all the resources of the nation is the worst example of bad citizen.As I identify with this nation, which gives me right by my act of accepting its constitution as democratic nation, also implies that it ordains duties on me to the nation.So, the venture of providing the plastic piece for id as citizen at huge cost is not a big issue but a ploy to divert big money in to busines of the venture. Regards, Rajen. On Sat, May 2, 2009 at 7:03 PM, Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com>wrote: > Dear Rajen, > > All that is commendable however my questions were about a more mundane > matter. They were about plastic tokens. I would be grateful if you > could share your thoughts about what seems like a whim to invest such > a huge amount of public money on a national identity card. When even > in so called developed countries like UK, people are asking questions > about the validity of such an investment. > > Do you think we would be better off as a nation in 2011, when the > survey related to the national population register would be complete? > If yes, then in what manner? How will a NPR benefit the country as a > whole? How do we know that funds appropriated for such an exercise > will not be directed for purposes of political patronage? What about > margin of error by the data entry people? When even in this general > election we have hundreds of thousands of instances of names being > fudged, addresses being misplaced and a submission by a minister > himself that it is not possible to identify all the voters. How are we > going to identify all Indians? How are we going to categorize people > who are undocumented as Indians in the first place? What about people > belonging to the third sex? What about migrant population? What about > beggars? Who will document them? How will they be documented? There > are 300-400 million transient population in India. IDP's add to this > figure. If on the one hand there seems to be no thought by the policy > makers on this issue, then don't you think, that this whole identity > card business seems like one more big scam, a money making enterprise, > inaugurated by the NDA and followed by the UPA in the name of > providing security to the people?? Even the most fundamental issue, > like the identity of person is still not resolved, why are we being > fed this propaganda that carrying a card will help us identify > ourselves as ourselves? > > Taha > From c.anupam at gmail.com Sun May 3 13:34:51 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 13:34:51 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] SIT case details in brief Message-ID: <341380d00905030104v73913f5bmcc41a85b40979b14@mail.gmail.com> *Sabarmati Train Carnage, Godhra* February 27, 2002 59 dead Total accused 134 Absconder 18 including one who died 116 arrested 103 chargesheeted *Ode Case, Anand.* Happened on March 1, 2002 27 dead Two FIRs 44 accused- most out on bail, one of them dead, one untraceable, six fled in foreign countries, Red Corner notices issued against the six. *Gulbarg Society Massacre, Ahmedabad* Happened on February 28, 2002 69 dead Total arrests 70 Absconders 14 One charge sheet committed in sessions court *Naroda Patiya Case, Ahmedabad* Happened on February 28, 2002 98 dead Total arrests 67 Absconders 4 Case yet not committed to sessions court *Naroda Gam case, Ahmedabad* Happened on February 28, 2002 11 dead Total arrests 79 Absconders 3 Case yet not committed to sessions court *Prantij – (British Nationals), Sabarkantha* Happened on February 28, 2002 3 dead, including 2 British Nationals, and one missing – a british national Total arrests 6 Case committed in sessions court *Dipda Darwaza Massacre, Mehsana * Happened on February 28, 2002 11 dead Total arrested 83 Case committed to sessions court, *Sardarpura massacre, Mehsana* Happened on March 1, 2002 33 dead Total arrested 71 Case committed to sessions court *EOM* From c.anupam at gmail.com Sun May 3 15:18:50 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 15:18:50 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Second Letter to Uncle Sam from Saadat Hasan Manto Message-ID: <341380d00905030248u25d9de33i7a1d4c54da227ea7@mail.gmail.com> Second Letter to Uncle Sam Saadat Hasan Manto’s Letters to Uncle Sam *Translated by Khalid Hasan* *31 Laxmi Mansions, Hall Road, **Lahore* * * Most respected Uncle, Greetings, It has been a while since I wrote to you but while there was no acknowledgment from you, some days earlier, a gentleman from your embassy whose name I do not recall right now, dropped in to see me in the company of a young local. A brief resume of my conversation with these gentlemen follows. We introduced ourselves in English. I was surprised that he spoke English, not American, a language that I have been unable to follow my entire life. We spoke for nearly three-quarters of an hour. He was pleased to meet me as every Americans pleased to meet a Pakistani or an Indian. I also gave him the impression that I was pleased to meet him, when the fact is that I do not derive any pleasure from meeting white Americans. Please do not take my blunt words to heart. During the last War, when I was living in Bombay , one day I found myself at Bombay Central, the train terminus. All one could see in the city those days was Americans. Nobody any longer gave a damn about poor Tommies. All the Anglo-Indian, Jewish and Parsi girls of Bombay who slept around by way of fashion were now to be seen walking hand in hand with the Americans. Uncle, believe me when one of your soldiers with a Jewish, Parsi or Anglo-Indian girl on his arm would walk past these Tommies, they would burn to a cinder with envy. You truly are different from the rest of the world. Our soldiers here don’t even make enough to buy half the foodthey need, but you pay even your office boy so much that he can fill not one but two bellies, from bottom to top. Uncle, forgive me for my impertinence, but is it not really something of a fraud? Where do you get all the money from? I know it is not my place to say so, but your actions have only one purpose and no other: show off. Maybe I am wrong, but it is human to make mistakes. I think you are also human and if you are not, then there is nothing I can do about that. I am digressing. I was talking about BombayCentral where I used to see many of your soldiers, mostly white, although one also ran into blacks. If truth be told, these black soldiers looked far tougher and in much better health than white ones. I can never understand why so many of your people wear glasses. The whites wore glasses and the blacks, whom you call Negroes, wore them too. Why they needed glasses, I have no idea. Maybe, it is all part of some grand strategy of yours because since you favour five freedoms, you want those whom you can easily put to eternal sleep-and you do- should look at your world through your glasses. At Bombay Central, I saw a Negro soldier who was so muscular that at his very sight I shrank to half my size. In the end, I gathered my courage and walked up to him. He was resting his back against the wall, his kitbag was lying next to him and his eyes were half closed. I made a noise by rubbing my shoes on the floor which made him open his eyes. I said to him in English, “I was passing this way when I stopped, so impressed was I by your personality.” Then I offered him my hand. The soldier who was wearing glasses took my hand in his vice-like grip and before he could crush every bone in there, I begged him to let me go. A big smile appeared on his dark lips and he asked me in his pure American accent, “Who are you?” “I live here,” I said, massaging my hand. “I noticed you at the station and felt like exchanging a word or two with you.” “There are so many soldiers around, why did you pick me out?” he asked. It was a tricky question but I answered it quite effortlessly. “I am black, so are you. I love black people,” I told him. He flashed a big smile at me. His dark lips looked so attractive that I wanted to kiss them. End of story. Uncle, your women are so beautiful. I once saw one of your movies called ‘Bathing Beauty’. “Where does uncle find such an assemblage of pretty legs?” I asked my friends later. I think there were about two hundred and fifty of them. Uncle, is this how women ’s legs look like in your country? If so, then for God ’s sake (that’s if you believe in God ) block their exhibition in Pakistan at least. It is possible that women ’s legs out here may be better than legs in your country but, uncle, no one flashes them around. Just think about it. The only legs we see are those of our wives: the rest of the legs we consider a forbidden sight. We are rather orthodox you see. I have digressed again but I will not apologise because this is the sort of writing you like. I wanted to tell you that the gentleman who came to see me belonged to your consulate here. He wanted me to write a story for him. I was taken aback because I do not know how to write in English, so I said to him, “Sir, I am an Urdu writer. I do not know how to write in English.” “We need the story in Urdu because we have a journal that is published in the Urdu language ,” he replied. I did not want to probe any further, so I said, “I am willing.” God is my witness, I did not know that he had come to see me at your bidding. Perhaps you made him read the letter I had sent you. But let’s drop this. As long as Pakistan needs wheat, I cannot be impertinent to you. As a Pakistani (though my government does not consider me a law-abiding citizen), I pray to God that a time may come when you find yourself in need of millet and edible greens and, provided I am alive, I will send it to you. This gentleman who asked me for the story wanted to now how much I would charge for it. Uncle, it is possible that you lie- and you actually do, having turned it into an art - but I don’t know how to. That day, however I did lie. “I will charge Rs.200 for my story.” The truth is that the most publishers here pay me is forty to fifty rupees a story, so when I said I would charge two hundred, I felt bad and quite ashamed of myself, but it was too late. But uncle I was really surprised when the gentleman you had sent replied, sounding equally surprised (real or artificial, I do not know), “Just two hundred… you should charge at least five hundred for a story.” I was really thrown because I could not imagine even in my wildest dreams that I could be offered five hundred for a story. But I was not going to go back on what I had said, so I repeated, “Look, sir, it will be two hundred and further discussion on this matter I am not prepared for.” He left, obviously in the belief that I was drunk. I drink and what I drink I have described in my first letter. Uncle, I am surprised that I am still alive, although it is five years since I have been drinking the poison distilled here. If you ever come here, I will offer you this vile stuff and hope that like me you will also remain alive, along with your five freedoms. Anyway, next morning as I was on my veranda shaving, the same gentleman of yours appeared and said, “Look, don’t insist on two hundred, take three hundred.” I said fine and took the three hundred he had offered. After putting the money in my pocket, I said to him, “I have charged you an extra one hundred but let me make it clear that what I write will not be to you liking, nor will I give you the right to make changes.” He has not shown up since. If you run into him or if he has sent you a report, please do let your Pakistani nephew know about it. Those three hundred rupees I have already spent. If you want the money back, I will pay you at the rate of a rupee a month. I hope you are happy with your five freedoms. Your obedient nephew, Saadat Hasan Manto From c.anupam at gmail.com Sun May 3 15:16:41 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 15:16:41 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?Saadat_Hasan_Manto=92s_Letters_to_?= =?windows-1252?q?Uncle_Sam?= Message-ID: <341380d00905030246h5b7518dbr16e09a0e5a20a72f@mail.gmail.com> Saadat Hasan Manto’s Letters to Uncle Sam *Foreword by Khalid Hasan Between 1951 and 1954, Saadat Hasan Manto wrote nine letters to Uncle Sam … These letters not only tell us a good deal about Manto and his concerns but even more about his political views. The man who speaks through these letters is well informed about international* *affairs and critical of American **policy* *. We also see Manto’s lighter side at play, enlivened by his caustic, at times savage, wit. We also learn a good deal about his friends and foes. He makes fun of Pakistani communists whom he always considers somewhat fake because they looked for a signal from their political gurus abroad before taking a position on any issue. A man with independent temperament of Manto found such conduct pathetic and made no bones about it. I had long wanted to translate these letters into English for not so much of their intrinsic literary and historical value but on account of their readability. About Saadat Hasan Manto: Saadat Hasan Manto, the most widely read and most controversial short story writer in Urdu, was born on May 11, 1912 at Sambrala in Punjab’s Ludhiana district. In a literary, journalistic, radio scripting and film-writing * *career* * spread over more than two decades, he produced 22 collections of short stories, one novel, five collections of radio plays, three collections of essays, two collections of personal sketches, and many scripts for films. He was tried for obscenity half a dozen times, thrice before and thrice after independence. Manto’s greatest work was produced in the last seven years of his life, a time of great financial and emotional hardship for him. He died several months short of his 43rd birthday in January 1955 in **Lahore* *.* *First Letter to Uncle Sam * * 31 Laxmi Mansions, Hall Road, **Lahore* * * 16 December 1951 *Dear Uncle, * Greetings, This letter comes to you from your Pakistani nephew whom you do not know, nor does anyone else in your land of seven freedoms. You should know why my country, sliced away from India, came into being and gained independence, which is why I am taking the liberty of writing to you. Like my country, I too have become independent and in exactly the same way. Uncle, I will not labour the point since an all-knowing seer like you can well imagine the freedom a bird whose wings have been clipped can enjoy. My name is Saadat Hasan Manto and I was born in a place that is now in India. My mother is buried there. My father is buried there my first-born is also resting in that bit of earth. However, that place is no longer my country. My country now is Pakistan which I had only seen five or six times before as a British subject. I used to be the All India ’s Great Short Story Writer. Now I am Pakistan ’s Great Short Story Writer. Several collections of my stories have been published and the people respect me. In undivided India, I was tried thrice, in Pakistan so far once. But then Pakistan is still young. The government of the British considered my writings pornographic. My own governmenthas the same opinion. The government of the British let me off but I do not expect my own government to do so. A lower court sentenced me to three months hard labour and a Rs. 300 fine. My appeal to the higher court won me an acquittal but my government believes that justicehas not been done and so it has now filed an appeal in the High Court, praying that the judgment acquitting me be quashed and I be punished. We will have to see what the high Court decides. My country is not your country which I regret. If the High Court were to punish me, there is no newspaper in my country that would print my picture or the details of all my trial. My country is poor. It has no art paper, nor proper printing presses. I am living evidence of this poverty. You will not believe it, uncle, but despite being the author of twenty-two books, I do not have my own house to live in. and you will be astonished to know that I have no means of getting myself from one place to the other. I neither have a Packard nor a Dodge; I do not even have a used car. If I need to go somewhere, I rent a bike. If a piece of mine appears in a newspaper and I earn twenty to twenty-five rupees at the rate of seven rupees a column, I hire a tonga and go buy locally distilled whiskey. Had this whiskey been distilled in your country, you would have destroyed that distillery with an atom bomb because it is the sort of stuff guaranteed to send its user to kingdom come within one year. But I am disgressing. All I really wanted to do was to convey my good wishes to brother Erskine Caldwell. You will no doubtrecall that you tried him for his novel ‘ God ’s Little Acre’ on the same charge that I have faced here: pornography. Believe me, uncle, when I hear that this novel was tried on an obscenity charge in the land of seven freedoms, I was extremely surprised. In your country, after all, everything is divested of its outer covering so that it can be displayed in the show window, be it fresh fruit or woman, machine or animal, book or calendar. You are the king of bare things so I am at a lossto understand, uncle, why you tried brother Erskine Caldwell. Had it not been for my quick reading of the court judgment I would have drunk myself to death by downing large quantities of our locally distilled whiskey because of the shock I received when I came to know of the Caldwell case. In a way, it was unfortunate that my country missed an opportunity to rid itself of a man like me, but then had I croaked, I would not have been writing to you, uncle. I am dutiful by nature. I love my country. In a few days, by the Grace of God I will die and if I do not kill myself, I will die anyway because where flour sells at the price at which it sells here, only a shamefaced person can complete his ordained time on earth. So, I read the Caldwell judgment and decided not to drink myself to deathwith large quantities of the local hooch. Uncle, out there in your country, everything has an artificial fa�ade but the judge who acquitted brother Erskine was certainly without such fa�ade if this judge- I’m sorry I don’t know his name- is alive, kindly convey my respectful regards to him. The last lines of his judgment point to the intellectual reach of his mind. He writes: “I personally feel that if such books were suppressed, it would create an unnecessary sense of curiosity among people which could induce them to seek salaciousness, though that is not the purpose of this book. I am absolutely certain that the author has chosen to write truthfully about a certain segment of American society. It is my opinion that truth is always consistent with literature and should be so declared.” That is what I told the court that sentenced me, but it went ahead anyway and gave me three months in prison with hard labour and a fine of three hundred rupees. My judge thought that truth and literatureshould be kept far apart. Everyone has his opinion. I am ready to serve my three-month term but this fine of three hundred rupees I am unable to pay. Uncle, you do not know that I am poor. Hard work I am used to, but money I am unused to. I am about thirty-nine and all my life I have worked hard. Just think about it. Despite being such a famous writer, I have no Packard. I am poor because my country is poor. Two meals a day I can somehow manage but many of my brothers are not so fortunate. My country is poor. But why is it ignorant? I am sure, uncle, you know why because you and your brother John Bull together are a subject I do not want to touch because it will not be exactly music to your ears. Since I write to you as a respectful youngster, I should remain that way from start to finish. You will certainly ask me out of astonishment why my country is poor when it boasts of so many Packards, Buicks, and Max Factor cosmetics. That is indeed so, uncle, but I will not answer your question because if you look into your heart, you will find the answer (unless you have had your heart taken out by one of your brilliant surgeons.) That section of my country’s populationwhich rides in Packards and Buicks is really not of my country. Where poor people like me and those even poorer live, that is my country. There are bitter things, but there is a shortage of sugar here otherwise I would have coated my words appropriately. But what of it! Recently, I read Evelyn Waugh’s book ‘The Loved One’. He of course comes from the country of your friends. Believe me, I was so impressed by that book that I sat down to write to you. I was always convinced of the individual genius found in your part of the world but after reading this book, I have become a fan of his for life. What a performance, I say! Some truly vibrant people do indeed live out there. Evelyn Waugh tells us that in your California, the dead can be beautified and there are large organizations that undertake the task. No matter how unattractive the dear departed in life, after deathhe can be given the look desired. There are forms you fill where you are asked to indicate your preference. The excellence of the finished product is guaranteed. The dead can be beautified to the extent desired, as long as you pay the price. There are experts who can perform this delicate task to perfection. The jaw of the loved one can be operated upon and a beatific smile implanted on the face. The eyes can be lit up and the forehead can be made to appear luminous. And all this work is done so marvelously that it can befool the two angles who are assigned to do a reckoning once a person is in the grave. Uncle, by God you people are matchless. One had heard of the living being operated on and beautified with the help of plastic surgery- there was much talk of it here- but one had not heard that the death can be beautified as well. Recently one of your citizens was here and some friends introduced me to him. By then I had read brother Evelyn Waugh’s book and I read an Urdu couplet to your countryman that he did not follow. However, the fact is, uncle, that we have so distorted our faces that they have become unrecognizable, even to us. And there we have you who can even make the dead look more beautiful than they ever were in life. The truth is that only you have a right to live on this earth: the rest of us are wasting our time. Our great Urdu poet Ghalib wrote about a hundred years ago: *If disgrace after **death* * was to be my * *fate* *, I should have met my end through drowning It would have spared me a funeral and no headstone would have marked my last resting place * Ghalib was not afraid of being disgraced while he was alive because from beginning to the end that remained his lot. What he feared was disgrace after death . He was a graceful man and not only was he afraid of what would happen after he died, he was certain what would happen to him after he was gone. And that is why he expressed a wish to meet his end through drowning so that he should neither have funeral nor grave. How I wish he had been born in your country. He would have been carried to his grave with great fanfare and over his resting place a skyscraper would have been built. Or were his own wish to be granted, his dead body would have been placed in a pool of glass and people would have gone to view it as they go to a zoo. Brother Evelyn Waugh writes that not only are there in your country establishments that can beautify dead humans but dead animals as well. If a dog loses its tail in an accident, he can have a new one. Whatever physical defects the dead one had in life are duly repaired after death . He is then buried ceremoniously and floral wreaths are placed on his grave. Every year on the pet’s deathanniversary, a card is sent to the owner with an inscription that reads something like this: In paradise, your Tammy (or Jeffie) is wagging his tail (or his ears) while thinking of you. What it adds up to is that your dogs are better off than us. Die here today, you are forgotten tomorrow. If someone in the familydies, it is a disaster for those left behind who often can be heard wailing, “why did the wretch die? I should’ve gone instead.” The truth is, uncle, that we neither know how to live nor how to die. I heard of one of your citizens who wasn’t sure what sort of funeral he would be given, so he staged a grand “funeral” for himself while he was very much alive. He deserved that certainly because he had lived a stylish and opulent life where nothing happened unless he wished it to. He wanted to rule out the possibility of things not being done right at his funeral; as such, he was justified in personally observing his last rites while alive. What happens after deathis neither here nor there. I have just seen the new issue of ‘Life’ (5 November 1951, international edition) and learnt of the most instructive facet of American life. Spread across two pages is an account of the funeral of the greatest gangster of your country. I saw a picture of Willie Moretti (may his soul rest in peace) and his magnificent home which he had recently sold for $55,000. I also viewed his five-acre estate where he wanted to live in peace, anyway from the distractions of the world. There was also a pictures of his $5,000 casket and his funeral procession made up of seventy-five cars. Godis my witness, it brought tears to my eyes. May there be dust in my mouth, but in case you were to die, may you have a grander farewell than Willie Moretti. This is the ardent prayer of a poor Pakistani writer who doesn’t even have a cycle to ride on. May I beg you that like the more farsighted ones in your country, you should make arrangements to witness your funeral while you are alive. You can’t leave it to others; they can always make mistakes, being fallible. It is possible that your physical appearance may not receive the attention it deserves after you have passed away. It is also possible that you may already have witnessed your funeral by the time this letter reaches you. I say this because you are not only wiser, you are also my uncle. Convey my good wishes to brother Erskine Caldwell and to the judge who acquitted him of the pornography charge. If I have caused you offense, I beg your forgiveness. With the utmost respect, Your poor nephew, Saadat Hasan Manto, Resident of Pakistan From c.anupam at gmail.com Sun May 3 15:21:54 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 15:21:54 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Third Letter to Uncle Sam from Saadat Hasan Manto Message-ID: <341380d00905030251h1a169ec5v665612c2ca30119e@mail.gmail.com> Third Letter to Uncle Sam Saadat Hasan Manto’s Letters to Uncle Sam Translated by Khalid Hasan*31 Laxmi Mansions, Hall Road, **Lahore* * 15 March 1954* Dear Uncle, Greetings, I write this after a long break. The fact is that I was ill. According to our poetic tradition, the treatment for illness lies in what is called the elixir of joy served by a slender temptress straight out of the quatrains of Omar Khyyam from a long-necked crystal jug. However, I think that is all poetry. Not to speak of the comely cup-bearers, one can’t even find an ugly servant boy with a moustache to play the cup-bearer. Beauty has fled this land. While women have come out from behind the veil, one look at them and you wish they had stayed behind it. Your Max Factor has made them even uglier. You send free wheat, free literature , free arms. Why not send a couple of hundred examples of pure American womanhood here so that they could at least serve a drink as it is supposed to be served? I fell ill because of this blasted liquor – Goddamn it – which is poison, pure and simple. And raw. Not that I did not know, not that I did not understand, but what the poet Meer wrote applies to my condition. *What a simpleton Meer is! The apothecary’s boy who made him fall ill Is the very one he goes to get his medicine * Who knows what Meer found in that apothecary’s boy from whom he sought his medicine when he knew he was ill because of him. The man from whom I buy my poison is far more ill than I am. While I have survived because I am used to a hard life, I see little hope for him. In the three months I was in a hospital’s general ward, no American aid reached me. I think you knew nothing about my illness otherwise you would have surely sent me two or three packages of Terramycin and earned credit in this world and the next. Our foreign publicity leaves a great deal to be desired and our government, in any case, has no interest in writers, poets and painters. Our late lamented government , I recall, appointed Firdausi-i-Islam Hafiz Jullandhri director of the song publicity department at a monthly salary of Rs 1,000. After the establishment of Pakistan, all that was allotted to him was a house and a printing press. Today you pick up the papers and what do you see? Hafiz Jullandhri bewailing his lot, having been thrown out of the committee appointed to compose a national anthem for Pakistan . He is one poet in the country who can write an anthem for this, the world’s largest Islamic state, and even set it to music. He divorced his British wife because the British are gone. He is said to be now looking for an American wife. Uncle, for God’s sake help him there so that he can be saved from a sorry end. (1) The number of your nephews runs into millions but a nephew like yours truly you will not find even if you lit an atom bomb to look for him. Do pay me some attention therefore. All I need is an announcement from you that your country (which may it please God to protect till the end of time) will only help my country ( may Godblight the distilleries of this land) acquire arms if Saadat Hasan Manto is sent over to you. Overnight, my value will go up and after this announcement, I will stop doing ‘Shama’ and ‘Director’ crossword puzzles (2). Important people will come to visit my home and I will ask you to airmail me a typical American grin which I will glue to my face so that I can receive them properly. Such a grin can have a thousand meanings. For instance, ‘You are an ass.’ ‘You are exceptionally brilliant.’ ‘I derived nothing but mental discomfort from this meeting.’ ‘You are a casual-wear shirt made in America.’ ‘You are a box of matches made in Pakistan .’ ‘You are a homemade herbal tonic.’ ‘You are Coca Cola.’ Etc. etc. I want to live in Pakistan because I love this bit of earth, dust from which, incidentally, has lodged itself permanently in my lungs. However, I will certainly visit your country so that I can get my healthback. Barring my lungs, every other organ in my body I will hand over to your experts and ask them to turn them American. I like the American way of life. I also like the design of your casual-wear shirts. It is both a good design and a good billboard. You can print the latest propaganda item on it every day and move from Shezan to Coffee House to Chinese Lunch Home so that everyone can read it. (3) I also want a Packard so that when I go riding in it on the Mall, wearing that shirt with a pipe gifted by you resting between my teeth, all the progressive and non-progressive writers of Lahoreshould come to realise that they have been wasting their time so far. But look uncle you will have to buy petrol for the car, though I promise to write a story as soon as I have the Packard that I would call 'Iran's nine maunds of oil and Radha'. Believe me, the moment the story is printed, all this trouble about Iranian oil will end and Maulana Zafar Ali Khan (4) who is sill alive will have to amend that couplet he once wrote about Lloyd George and oil. Another thing I would want from you would be a tiny, teeny weenie atom bomb because for long I have wished to perform a certain good deed. You will naturally want to know what. You have done many good deeds yourself and continue to do them. You decimated Hiroshima, you turned Nagasaki into smoke and dust and you caused several thousand children to be born in Japan. Each to his own. All I want you to do is to dispatch me some dry cleaners. It is like this. Out here, many Mullah types after urinating pick up a stone and with one hand inside their untied shalwar, use the stone to absorb the after-drops of urine as they resume their walk. This they do in full public view. All I want is that the moment such a person appears, I should be able to pull out that atom bomb you will send me and lob it at the Mullah so that he turns into smoke along with the stone he was holding. As for your military pact with us, it is remarkable and should be maintained. You should sign something similar with India . Sell all your old condemned arms to the two of us, the ones you used in the last war. This junk will thus be off your hands and your armament factories will no longer remain idle. Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru is a Kashmiri, so you should send him a gun which should go off when it is placed in the sun. I am a Kashmiri too, but a Muslim which is why I have asked for a tiny atom bomb for myself. One more thing. We can’t seem able to draft a constitution. Do kindly ship us some experts because while a nation can manage without a national anthem, it cannot do without a constitution, unless such is your wish. One more thing. As soon as you get this letter, send me a shipload of American matchsticks. The matchsticks manufactured here have to be lit with the help of Iranian made matchsticks. And after you have used half the box, the rest are unusable unless you take help from matches made in Russia which behave more like firecrackers than matches. The American topcoats are also excellent and without them our Landa Bazar (5) would be quite barren. But why don’t you send us trousers as well? Don’t you ever take off your trousers? If you do, you probably ship them to India. There has to be a strategy to it because you send us jackets but no trousers which you send to India . When there is a war , it will be your jackets and your trousers. These two will fight each other using arms supplied by you. And what is this I hear about Charlie Chaplin having given up his US citizenship? What did this joker think he was doing? He surely is suffering from communism otherwise why would a man who has lived all his life in your country, made his name there, made his money there, do what he has done? Does he not remember the time when he used to beg in the streets of London and nobody took any notice of him! Why did he not go to Russia? But then there is no shortage of jokers there. Perhaps he should go to England so that its residents learn to laugh heartily like Americans. As it is, they always look so somber and superior? It is time some of their pretense came off. I now close my letter with a freestyle kiss to Heddy Lamarr. Your nephew, *Saadat Hasan Manto * Footnotes: 1) Hafiz Jullandhri was one of Urdu’s leading poets before independence and gained popularity for his poetic epic based on the history of Islamthat he called ‘Shahnama0e- Islam ’. He was likened to the great medieval Persian poet Firdausi who wrote the famous epic poem called Shahnama. Hafiz was often called Firdausi-e-Islam. After independence he was assigned to write the Pakistani national anthem that he did. However, he always felt that his service had not been recognized to the extent they deserved. Manto did not think much of him, either as a poet or a man. 2) ‘Shama’, Delhi , and ‘Director’, Lahore, were two popular magazines of the time that ran crossword puzzle competitions that offered generous cash prizes. 3) Zelin’s Coffee House, Pak Tea House and Cheney’s Lunch Home, all located on the Mall were Lahore ’s most popular restaurants at the time where writers and intellectuals hung out. Only Pak Tea House has survived though teetering on the brink of bankruptcy. 4) Maulana Zafar Ali Kahn, prolific poet, writer and journalist who founded the Urdu daily ‘Zamindar’ from Lahore . He died in the early 1950s. 5) Landa Bazar, Lahore ’s famous second hand clothes market. From rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com Sun May 3 16:19:42 2009 From: rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com (Rajen Uppinangadi) Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 16:19:42 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] As a society when do we let the wounds heal in society.? Message-ID: <61164a90905030349m17bf763dy4095a42ecb1772f6@mail.gmail.com> Dear All, after so many views about unrest in society, about the system of rule of laws governing the society in democratic India, about the use of hate speech by nethas of different political outfits,about moral policing of women and liberal views of pink loose chaddis, live-in and gay life styles which are all only symptoms of modern living but not necessarily of good life, after so many bomb blasts where bombs did not discriminate in delivery of death and injury to humans, when do we take steps to let the wounds in the present time frame.? How many more incidents are the need of the society to wake up from the deep rot of hate, vengeance and revenge in society.? Agreed that our leaders made mistake in 1947 in having two separate land mass one for muslims and the other for "secular" society,agreed that muslim leaders who promised the then leaders that they will live in harmony with the secular society in free India.The very basic premises which formed the nation of free India that all faiths would be respected, turned around as the promise of role of faith was not important in rule of laws, was overlooked in governance and discriminations based on caste, faith ruled all these years. But the fact is now it can not be undone, the followers of the faith who are living now, are part of the society and all have to accept this as the starting point. To the argument that many of the minorities used to take full the advantage of being minority, indulged in acts of violence in early years of free India only to go scotfree, even get rewarded for acts of criminal acts of violence is a fact,in retaliation, majority who were conditioned to "tolerate" are no more "tolerent" of the acts of anyone in society of taking laws into their own hands by anyone of any faith should be reality. Is it not time for all of us to think of today, to plan for the future of the next generation of free India, who are now totally fed with "history" of different shades and not truth.? Can we not forget the past and the miseries of the past to make our next generation secure and happier and see that they do not carry the legacy of hate, revenge and vengeance.? With population increasing in geometric proportions in the society, the violence and breeding of hate and revenge will only get more of it. As all faiths are for compassionate living, sharing and caring of all living beings, do we have to carry the baggage of hate and cross of revenge for any more distance.? In the past, we had kings and kingdoms, we had the clans and fiefdoms, and the kothwals, paleygars,chowdharies and patwaris, jats and yadavs who had specific tasks in kingdoms, but now in democratic life of a free nation all such surnames have no bearing whatsoever in rule of laws. Should we still live in the past with baggage of hate, vengeance and revenge or can we go into this century with a mission of humane living.? Regards, Rajen. From indersalim at gmail.com Sun May 3 16:31:41 2009 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 16:31:41 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Third Letter to Uncle Sam from Saadat Hasan Manto In-Reply-To: <341380d00905030251h1a169ec5v665612c2ca30119e@mail.gmail.com> References: <341380d00905030251h1a169ec5v665612c2ca30119e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70905030401i32deb0d2ib127ab00f28fcda2@mail.gmail.com> thanks dear Amupam things, we see have not changed at all, and one can see how Mantoo felt as much we feel now, and truly want to remind Uncle Sam, sarcastically again "sell all your old condemned arms to the two of us, ( india and pakistan ) the ones you used in the last war, This junk will thus be off your hands and your armament factories will no longer remain idle." and the other fact about Mantoo, which i knew not "He flashed a big smile at me. His dark lips looked so attractive that I wanted to kiss them" with love inder salim and yes, just by the way, Mantoo from Manut: in kashmiri means one and a half kilo On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 3:21 PM, anupam chakravartty wrote: > Third Letter to Uncle Sam Saadat Hasan Manto’s Letters to Uncle Sam > Translated by Khalid Hasan*31 Laxmi Mansions, > Hall Road, **Lahore* * > > 15 March 1954* > > Dear Uncle, > > Greetings, > > I write this after a long break. The fact is that I was ill. According to > our poetic tradition, the treatment for illness lies in what is called the > elixir of joy served by a slender temptress straight out of the quatrains of > Omar Khyyam from a long-necked crystal jug. However, I think that is all > poetry. Not to speak of the comely cup-bearers, one can’t even find an ugly > servant boy with a moustache to play the cup-bearer. > > Beauty has fled this land. While women have > come out from behind the veil, one look at them and you wish they had stayed > behind it. Your Max Factor has made them even uglier. You send free wheat, > free literature , free arms. Why not > send a couple of hundred examples of pure American womanhood here so that > they could at least serve a drink as it is supposed to be served? > > I fell ill because of this blasted liquor – > Goddamn it – which is poison, pure and > simple. And raw. Not that I did not > know, not that I did not understand, but what the poet Meer wrote applies to > my condition. > > *What a simpleton Meer is! > The apothecary’s boy who made him fall ill > Is the very one he goes to get his medicine > * > Who knows what Meer found in that apothecary’s boy from whom he sought his > medicine when he knew he was ill because of him. The man from whom I buy my > poison is far more ill than I am. While I have survived because I am used to > a hard life, I see little hope for him. > > In the three months I was in a hospital’s general ward, no American aid > reached me. I think you knew nothing about my illness otherwise you would > have surely sent me two or three packages of Terramycin and earned credit in > this world and the next. > > Our foreign publicity leaves a great deal to be desired and our > government, > in any case, has no interest in writers, poets and painters. > > Our late lamented government , I > recall, appointed Firdausi-i-Islam Hafiz > Jullandhri director of the song publicity department at a monthly salary of > Rs 1,000. After the establishment of > Pakistan, > all that was allotted to him was a house and a printing press. Today you > pick up the papers and what do you see? Hafiz Jullandhri bewailing his lot, > having been thrown out of the committee appointed to compose a national > anthem for Pakistan . He is one poet in > the country who can write an anthem for this, the world’s largest Islamic > state, and even set it to > music. > He divorced his British wife because the British are gone. He is said to be > now looking for an American wife. Uncle, for > God’s > sake help him there so that he can be saved from a sorry end. (1) > > The number of your nephews runs into millions but a nephew like yours truly > you will not find even if you lit an atom bomb to look for him. Do pay me > some attention therefore. All I need is an announcement from you that your > country (which may it please God to protect > till the end of time) will only help my country ( may > Godblight the distilleries of this land) > acquire arms if Saadat Hasan Manto is > sent over to you. > > Overnight, my value will go up and after this announcement, I will stop > doing ‘Shama’ and ‘Director’ crossword puzzles (2). Important people will > come to visit my home and I will ask you to airmail me a typical American > grin which I will glue to my face so that I can receive them properly. > > Such a grin can have a thousand meanings. For instance, ‘You are an ass.’ > ‘You are exceptionally brilliant.’ ‘I derived nothing but mental discomfort > from this meeting.’ ‘You are a casual-wear shirt made in America.’ ‘You are > a box of matches made in Pakistan .’ ‘You > are a homemade herbal tonic.’ ‘You are Coca Cola.’ Etc. etc. > > I want to live in Pakistan because I > love this bit of earth, dust from which, > incidentally, has lodged itself permanently in my lungs. However, I will > certainly visit your country so that I can get my > healthback. Barring my lungs, every > other organ in my body I will hand over to > your experts and ask them to turn them American. > > I like the American way of life. I also like the design of your casual-wear > shirts. It is both a good design and a good billboard. You can print the > latest propaganda item on it every day and move from Shezan to Coffee House > to Chinese Lunch Home so that everyone can read it. (3) > > I also want a Packard so that when I go riding in it on the Mall, wearing > that shirt with a pipe gifted by you resting between my teeth, all the > progressive and non-progressive writers of > Lahoreshould come to realise that > they have been wasting their time so far. > > But look uncle you will have to buy petrol for the car, though I promise to > write a story as soon as I have the Packard that I would call 'Iran's nine > maunds of oil and Radha'. Believe me, the moment the story is printed, all > this trouble about Iranian oil will end and Maulana Zafar Ali Khan (4) who > is sill alive will have to amend that couplet he once wrote about Lloyd > George and oil. > > Another thing I would want from you would be a tiny, teeny weenie atom bomb > because for long I have wished to perform a certain good deed. You will > naturally want to know what. > > You have done many good deeds yourself and continue to do them. You > decimated Hiroshima, you turned Nagasaki into smoke and dust and you caused > several thousand children to be born in > Japan. Each to his own. All I want you to do is to dispatch me some dry > cleaners. It is like this. Out here, many Mullah types after urinating pick > up a stone and with one hand inside their untied shalwar, use the stone to > absorb the after-drops of urine as they resume their walk. This they do in > full public view. All I want is that the moment such a person appears, I > should be able to pull out that atom bomb you will send me and lob it at the > Mullah so that he turns into smoke along with the stone he was holding. > > As for your military pact with us, it is > remarkable and should be maintained. You should sign something similar with > India . Sell all your old condemned arms to > the two of us, the ones you used in the last war. > This junk will thus be off your hands and your armament factories will no > longer remain idle. > > Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru is a Kashmiri, so > you should send him a gun which should go off when it is placed in the sun. > I am a Kashmiri too, but a Muslim which is why I have asked for a tiny atom > bomb for myself. > > One more thing. We can’t seem able to draft a > constitution. > Do kindly ship us some experts because while a nation can manage without a > national anthem, it cannot do without a > constitution, > unless such is your wish. > > One more thing. As soon as you get this letter, send me a shipload of > American matchsticks. The matchsticks manufactured here have to be lit with > the help of Iranian made matchsticks. And after you have used half the box, > the rest are unusable unless you take help from matches made in Russia which > behave more like firecrackers than matches. > > The American topcoats are also excellent and without them our Landa Bazar > (5) would be quite barren. But why don’t you send us trousers as well? Don’t > you ever take off your trousers? If you do, you probably ship them to > India. > There has to be a strategy to it because you send us jackets but no trousers > which you send to India . When there is a > war , it will be your jackets and your > trousers. These two will fight each other using arms supplied by you. > > And what is this I hear about Charlie Chaplin having given up his US > citizenship? What did this joker think he was doing? He surely is suffering > from communism otherwise why would a man who has lived all his life in your > country, made his name there, made his money there, do what he has done? > Does he not remember the time when he used to beg in the streets of London > and nobody took any notice of him! > > Why did he not go to Russia? But then there is no shortage of jokers there. > Perhaps he should go to England so that its residents learn to laugh > heartily like Americans. As it is, they always look so somber and superior? > It is time some of their pretense came off. > > I now close my letter with a freestyle kiss to Heddy Lamarr. > > Your nephew, > > *Saadat Hasan Manto * > > > Footnotes: > > 1) Hafiz Jullandhri was one of Urdu’s leading poets before independence and > gained popularity for his poetic epic based on the history of > Islamthat he called ‘Shahnama0e- > Islam ’. He was likened to the great > medieval Persian poet Firdausi who wrote the famous epic poem called > Shahnama. Hafiz was often called > Firdausi-e-Islam. > After independence he was assigned to write the Pakistani national anthem > that he did. However, he always felt that his service had not been > recognized to the extent they deserved. Manto did not think much of him, > either as a poet or a man. > > 2) ‘Shama’, Delhi , and ‘Director’, > Lahore, > were two popular magazines of the time that ran crossword puzzle > competitions that offered generous cash prizes. > > 3) Zelin’s Coffee House, Pak Tea House and Cheney’s Lunch Home, all located > on the Mall were Lahore ’s most popular > restaurants at the time where writers and intellectuals hung out. Only Pak > Tea House has survived though teetering on the brink of bankruptcy. > > 4) Maulana Zafar Ali Kahn, prolific poet, writer and journalist who founded > the Urdu daily ‘Zamindar’ from Lahore . He > died in the early 1950s. > > 5) Landa Bazar, Lahore ’s famous second > hand clothes market. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From indersalim at gmail.com Sun May 3 17:01:08 2009 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 17:01:08 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] National wastage system.? In-Reply-To: <61164a90905030010j38f39e9dq6951bcebee8bb4b@mail.gmail.com> References: <61164a90905020241w35ccd35ds9c66d9ee1b79965c@mail.gmail.com> <65be9bf40905020633x167013f8k702b3c5043d75a65@mail.gmail.com> <61164a90905030010j38f39e9dq6951bcebee8bb4b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70905030431y183d51d4pcd0deb742a5ca73d@mail.gmail.com> Dear Rajan Apparently it looks that people in general have a tendency to measure everything with what they approve for themselves. however that too is often limited to our selfish motives. the trouble begins when we are face to face with the voiceless , whose number in india happens to be in millions. right now you are scared by " a Arundhati Roy " whom you feel has declared as a sovereign nation herself, while using all the resources of the nation. Note all the resources of the nation. what do you expect from her, .......she should hold a constitution of India in her pocket like a bible to prove loyality to India?. or her dial tone should be Vande Mataram, etc etc may i know how you prove you loyalty to Soverign India by serving the nation first and yourself later. May i know the charge agaimst Ms Roy? tell me, who amongst us on the List, is not the beneficiary of the system...... against those millions of Indians who are facing the wall, and whose miseries will not disappear with one National I Card. how we are suddenly so full of virtues that we see others full of vices. And if you think a Govt. or a constitution cant be questioned, even, ............then it is almost impossible to make a simple cartoon in the newspaper. Dont they amend the rules and constitution as and when it suits the people at the helm, have you ever questioned that procedure. or you think these topiwallas in Parliament have birth right to assault the simple indians. and nobody from outside should question.... alas, that we dont want to support courageous voices, like Roy's . with love inder salim On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 12:40 PM, Rajen Uppinangadi wrote: > Dear Taha, > >   no piece of plastic or paper can give me national identity unless I > identify myself with the nation of which I am citizen. >     A Arundhathi Roy  and such others, born in the nation declaring herself > as sovereign nation herself, but using all the resources of the nation is > the worst example of bad citizen.As I identify with this nation, which gives > me right by my act of accepting its constitution as democratic nation, also > implies that it ordains duties on me to the nation.So, the venture of > providing the plastic piece for id as citizen at huge cost is not a big > issue but a ploy to divert big money in to busines of the venture. > > Regards, > > Rajen. > > On Sat, May 2, 2009 at 7:03 PM, Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com>wrote: > >> Dear Rajen, >> >> All that is commendable however my questions were about a more mundane >> matter. They were about plastic tokens. I would be grateful if you >> could share your thoughts about what seems like a whim to invest such >> a huge amount of public money on a national identity card. When even >> in so called developed countries like UK, people are asking questions >> about the validity of such an investment. >> >> Do you think we would be better off as a nation in 2011, when the >> survey related to the national population register would be complete? >> If yes, then in what manner? How will a NPR benefit the country as a >> whole? How do we know that funds appropriated for such an exercise >> will not be directed for purposes of political patronage? What about >> margin of error by the data entry people? When even in this general >> election we have hundreds of thousands of instances of names being >> fudged, addresses being misplaced and a submission by a minister >> himself that it is not possible to identify all the voters. How are we >> going to identify all Indians? How are we going to categorize people >> who are undocumented as Indians in the first place? What about people >> belonging to the third sex? What about migrant population? What about >> beggars? Who will document them? How will they be documented? There >> are 300-400 million transient population in India. IDP's add to this >> figure. If on the one hand there seems to be no thought by the policy >> makers on this issue, then don't you think, that this whole identity >> card business seems like one more big scam, a money making enterprise, >> inaugurated by the NDA and followed by the UPA in the name of >> providing security to the people?? Even the most fundamental issue, >> like the identity of person is still not resolved, why are we being >> fed this propaganda that carrying a card will help us identify >> ourselves as ourselves? >> >> Taha >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com Sun May 3 17:22:24 2009 From: rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com (Rajen Uppinangadi) Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 17:22:24 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Affidavits and judicial precess., sanctity of affidavits in justice delivery system. Message-ID: <61164a90905030452y5b22dacdq3416a5cde88e49ef@mail.gmail.com> Dear all, In response to the PIL filed by some recognized citizens of India about the black money, ( I do not understand why it is not unaccounted money, and not black money.) the response was by an affidavit which affirms all steps taken by the system of governance, relentless steps taken by it etc,as no results out of all this relentless actions, but the cat is out of the bag, at the end para of the affidavit when the very affidavit wants the suit to be dismissed as it is not "jurisdiction" of the court to inquire about the executive of its inefficiency in taking action to take steps in taking corrective action of controlling unaccounted money in the unaccounted accounts of individuals.? The role of affidavits becomes more relevant if anyone uses it to take revenge on any person to see that person is behind bars, all that the person has to do is get his computer, catch hold of an advocate, notary,get ready with a few affidavits drafted, print them get some to sign them, affirm them to be true to best of their knowledge by affirmation of faith, currency bundles of unaccounted money,and lo, you have affidavits ready to give it to any court of law, or to any SIT, that person now has to get ready to start the while process of affidavits, with more of them, with more of unaccounted money for the process of judiciary, as every one knows, as to how much is entered for the signature of the notary, how much is paid, unaccounted money generates it self from every action of the justice.? May be that is the reason, the affidavit does not want the "jurisdiction" of the supreme court to touch the executives for their inaction.? In another post, we have seen how the NGOs get ready with affidavits for the inquiry officer who has actally got duty bound to question the deposer, record the answers and then the affidavit is ready, NGOs give a go by to all this aspects of the procedure for their axe to grind.?Even the premier investigating agencies use the shortcuts for affidavis is a known but un acknoledged fact. Regards, Rajen. From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Sun May 3 18:49:58 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 18:49:58 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] National wastage system.? In-Reply-To: <61164a90905030010j38f39e9dq6951bcebee8bb4b@mail.gmail.com> References: <61164a90905020241w35ccd35ds9c66d9ee1b79965c@mail.gmail.com> <65be9bf40905020633x167013f8k702b3c5043d75a65@mail.gmail.com> <61164a90905030010j38f39e9dq6951bcebee8bb4b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <370091.61036.qm@web94709.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Dear all,           Lets briefly investigate into Security matters. What I'd call security for whom. There is a clear class-bias while provision of security is concerned. Thus Security is of two types- eye-wash security and high-profile security, eg security provided or that used to be provided at metro stations and still is, and for the genuine one, lets say PM's personal security. Rightly such ventures are an account to increase production and leave consumption intact( solve economic problems without dwelving deep into endowments), this is indeed a case for increased millitary expenses, loot,destroying peace etc.  But here is my point to all the nation chauvinists who would typically brush away such issues as anarchic and attempting to reduce security cover of the Nation and it's people: The people, whom I recognise never benifit or are being protected, it's an eyewash, and an excuse to beef up security for the have's those who get it anyway, to make them feel fearless at the cost of thousand innocent people of the street, whom I count as the people of this nation, (who clearly do not matter to the agencies, except when on plunder!). One might check out the city streets places where fool proof checking is carried out, why when and how. It's either to protect Capital of state or VVIP's at there home functions etc. Everyplace else it's an eye-wash, to prevent stampede, rampage or bring in more discpline among people. With Nic's I do not expect stronger checking at every plavce or vigilance to be beefed up. The obvious benificiary will be members of upper buergois and ruling class. I have not yet forgotten the M.C. Sharma death at Batla house( the reader is referred to Batla house encounter case) where it was claimed that there do exist people in police and intelligence who can make out over the phone the difference between a Bangladeshi mulsim, an Indian one and a Pakistani muslim. Then why bother about NIC and not spend some more on training up more such peopple, which is clearly inefficient in providing security. Or Mr Advani or Chidambaram might clarify if this were a bluff? So security endangered( creating retaliat ory feelings and gestures) for the common man? Well this poor species has always been put at the recieving end of any distribution system. And as far as protection of information and e-security is concerned let me remind you, that the PMO's official mailing system was infected by a Virus, or may be a Zombie for four months two months ago! Well the question is with two alternative rulers having got mad in showing strength and harshness, who might stop it, how or on what grounds? Reminds me of an evening time imagery to be read with Cofee or snacks! Regards,        Subhrodip. ________________________________ From: Rajen Uppinangadi To: Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Sunday, 3 May, 2009 12:40:06 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] National wastage system.? Dear Taha,   no piece of plastic or paper can give me national identity unless I identify myself with the nation of which I am citizen.     A Arundhathi Roy  and such others, born in the nation declaring herself as sovereign nation herself, but using all the resources of the nation is the worst example of bad citizen.As I identify with this nation, which gives me right by my act of accepting its constitution as democratic nation, also implies that it ordains duties on me to the nation.So, the venture of providing the plastic piece for id as citizen at huge cost is not a big issue but a ploy to divert big money in to busines of the venture. Regards, Rajen. On Sat, May 2, 2009 at 7:03 PM, Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com>wrote: > Dear Rajen, > > All that is commendable however my questions were about a more mundane > matter. They were about plastic tokens. I would be grateful if you > could share your thoughts about what seems like a whim to invest such > a huge amount of public money on a national identity card. When even > in so called developed countries like UK, people are asking questions > about the validity of such an investment. > > Do you think we would be better off as a nation in 2011, when the > survey related to the national population register would be complete? > If yes, then in what manner? How will a NPR benefit the country as a > whole? How do we know that funds appropriated for such an exercise > will not be directed for purposes of political patronage? What about > margin of error by the data entry people? When even in this general > election we have hundreds of thousands of instances of names being > fudged, addresses being misplaced and a submission by a minister > himself that it is not possible to identify all the voters. How are we > going to identify all Indians? How are we going to categorize people > who are undocumented as Indians in the first place? What about people > belonging to the third sex? What about migrant population? What about > beggars? Who will document them? How will they be documented? There > are 300-400 million transient population in India. IDP's add to this > figure. If on the one hand there seems to be no thought by the policy > makers on this issue, then don't you think, that this whole identity > card business seems like one more big scam, a money making enterprise, > inaugurated by the NDA and followed by the UPA in the name of > providing security to the people?? Even the most fundamental issue, > like the identity of person is still not resolved, why are we being > fed this propaganda that carrying a card will help us identify > ourselves as ourselves? > > Taha > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter http://beta.cricket.yahoo.com From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Sun May 3 19:55:18 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 15:25:18 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Kyrgyz Government uses surveillance and wiretap on ordinary citizens Message-ID: <65be9bf40905030725l26c1bae3pdb01347ffa706f6d@mail.gmail.com> http://www.theyoungturks.com/story/2009/5/3/25344/84106/Diary/Kyrgyz-Government-uses-surveillance-and-wiretap-on-ordinary-citizens Kyrgyz Government uses surveillance and wiretap on ordinary citizens Email Print posted by Ryskeldi Satke On military electronics deal between US and Kyrgyz Government Jetigen.org In the summer of 2008 majour kyrgyz media outlets reported a military equipment purchase deal in the amount of USD 20 million between US Government and Kyrgyzstan for 2007. Particularly the reports highlighted a transaction with highly sophisticated weaponry with reference to the Washington Profile agency out of Washington DC which published a statistics from US State Department's data for Fiscal Year 2007 . Further, the head of Kyrgyz Government Igor Chudinov responded negatively on purchase deal reffering to the incorrect information with intent to apply to the US Embassy in the Kyrgyzstan to disprove information on procurement. Chudinov continued that Kyrgyzstan indeed received assistance from US saying "our country has received american military - technical assistance for USD $ 20 million 694 thousand, but I can responsibly state that no weapons were bought ", - explaining that assistance funds were spent on construction projects for Kyrgyz Ministry of Defence, cadet school, military helicopter repairs, electronic communications equipment, fuel expenses, spare parts and so on. According, to his words there was no majour arms deal made with US but Chudinov gave out some information on electronic equipment with no specifics. American reports indicate that Kyrgyzstan received assistance at a much larger amount than USD 20 million 694 thousand in various military programmes from 2001 to 2008 which was published by the Center of Defense Information. http://www.cdi.org/pdfs/Kyr gyzstan.pdf By the data in 2004, US provided Kyrgyzstan with 2 military MI – 8 helicopters in support of the kyrgyz armed forces to combat Islamic movement of Uzbekistan (IMU) on the southern border of the Republic but this does not fall for Chudinov's helicopter repairs spending . The focus of press was placed on the military electronic equipment. The Pentagon provided 193 units of special electronics of which 1 unit is a computer designed for military applications in the amount of $ USD 1 million and 192 units of electronic systems and devices for use in surveillance in the amount of USD 19 million 8 thousand which totals to USD 20 million 8 thousand. In addition, the Kyrgyz Government had purchased night vision devices in the amount of USD 34 578. http://fas.org/programs/ssp /asmp/factsandfigures/gover nment_data/State_Dept_rpt65 5_FY07.pdf These devices designed to intercept, process and analyse the information from cable and cellular lines as well as e-mail, internet and hosting servers . The surveillance can be launched 100 to 500 meters away from the target. Technical characteristics of electronic systems indicate their function on the principle of electromagnetic waves emitted by interception with any electronics including the computer screen electromagnetic field. The Siemens Corporation - one of the largest German enterprises, producing electronic equipment conducted experiments to restore data on the basis of reading computer screen electromagnetic field, taken at a distance of 100 meters found that the maximum distance at which the interception possible, is more than 2 kilometres. Such devices are classified in Category XI – Military Electronics of US Munition List which are sold only with license of the United States Government. The issue of hightech “toys” has become a legitimate concern for ordinary citizens especially if they fall into the hands of wrong individuals who could use it against kyrgyz population without its knowledge. Given the persecution of opposition parties by the authorities as well as President Bakiev's surrounding you can only guess on the size of illegal surveillance and wiretap activities around members and leaders of United Opposition Movement. Accordingly, sharp negative reaction of the Prime – Minister Chudinov on the purchase of "special products" is a logical explanation because such actions are illegal and against the freedoms and rights of citizens of the Kyrgyz Republic. The recent assassination of Medet Sadyrkulov (former head of the President Bakiev administration) and his colleagues had brought opening statements from Elmira Ibraimova (ex vice Prime-Minister) that surveillance was placed in those days when Sadyrkulov has been actively engaging in negotiations with opposition leaders as well as in the very fateful day prior to his Almaty trip (City in Kazakstan) which was his last day. The official investigation of his death had produced a version with falsified collision accident which by most of the opposition leaders described as unwillingness of the Government to solve the case. There is an obvious strengthening role of control methods for independent media followed by recent attacks on journalists and closing "Lizza", "Alibi" and "De facto" newspapers with trailing "Azattyk" radio coming to visible shutdown. Bakiev regime as it appears won't stop with achieved with overlooking ordinary free citizens of Kyrgyzstan who do not suspect that they are under active surveillance. That's how present Government uses hightech progress contributing to the establishment of a controlled society. www.jetigen.org From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Sun May 3 20:03:09 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 15:33:09 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] MNIC: Parliament Questions - 11 Message-ID: <65be9bf40905030733m70b059ic562bd1d1dcb4c41@mail.gmail.com> http://164.100.47.132/psearch/QResult13.aspx?qref=9450 GOVERNMENT OF INDIA MINISTRY OF HOME AFFAIRS LOK SABHA STARRED QUESTION NO 420 ANSWERED ON 22.08.2000 IDENTITY CARDS 420 . Prof. UMMAREDDY VENKATESWARLU (a) whether the Government propose to provide identity cards to all Indian Citizens above the age of fifteen; (b) if so, the details thereof and the cost involved therein; and (c) the time by which this process is likely to be completed? ANSWER THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE MINISTRY OF HOME AFFAIRS (CH. VIDYASAGAR RAO) (a)to(c): A detailed feasibility study in respect of the scheme of Identity Cards has been conducted by a professional consultancy firm who have recently submitted their report to the Government. The report submitted by the consultants is being examined. No final decision regarding the implementation of the proposal has been taken as yet by the Government. From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Sun May 3 20:56:08 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 16:26:08 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] 'In UP, Brahmins do tactical voting, not Muslims Message-ID: <65be9bf40905030826t50088734q81d1664228496417@mail.gmail.com> Dear All In an interview with rediff's Sheela Bhatt Dr Abdul Waheed talks about Muslims in UP. Please notice the way in which the so called 'Islamic Community' is represented below, as opposed to representation by members belonging to different 'news traders' like BBC's Suvojit Bagchi or even those who work for national electronic and print press who resort to often idiotic and broad generalizations, in the interview below we get far more fractured, deeply local, complex, and multi-layered reading of the political choices, that people are going to make this election season. Regards Taha In UP, Brahmins do tactical voting, not Muslims' Dr Abdul Waheed | May 02, 2009 10:18 IST Last Updated: May 02, 2009 10:25 IST Dr Abdul Waheed, reader in the department of sociology and social work at the Aligarh Muslim University, is an authority on socio-political issues related to the Muslims of Uttar Pradesh [Images]. He has done his MPhil on 'The Phenomenon of Dowry among Muslims in India' and his PhD thesis was on the 'Social Structure and Economy of an Urban Muslim Community: A Case Study of Muslim Banjaras of Baheri, District Bareilly, UP.' His two books -- Muslim Artisans, Craftsmen and Traders: Issues in Entrepreneurship and Muslims of Uttar Pradesh provides good reference material for serious studies. In his gloomy office at AMU, Dr Waheed spoke to rediff.com's Sheela Bhatt: Uttar Pradesh has more than 3 crore (30 million)Muslims. That amounts for around 23 percent of Indian Muslims. According to the 2001 census, UP's population was 16 crore (160 million) and Muslims are 18.5 percent of the population. In UP, according to the 2001 census, out of 70 districts (UP now has 71 districts) 21 districts have a sizable population of Muslims and are recognised by the government as districts having 'minority concentration'. Ghaziabad, Meerut, Muzzafarnagar, Bijnore, Saharanpur, Moradabad, Rampur, Bareilly, Pilibhit [Images], Bulandshahr, Badaon, Lucknow [Images] and Bahraich districts have more than 25 percent but not more than 50 percent Muslim population. Rampur has the highest concentration of Muslims in UP along with Bijnore and Moradabad. I belong to Bareilly, so I have observed the politics of neighbouring areas like Rampur, Pilibhit and Moradabad quite closely. Muslims of western UP are in a precarious position this election. Why? Because they believe that no secular party -- whether it is the Bahujan Samaj Party, Samajwadi Party or the Congress -- has done anything for them. They thought the Bharatiya Janata Party [Images] is their enemy party. Now, they are confused what to do? Whether to defeat the BJP or not? To do so, they are forced to vote for candidates and parties whom they don't like. That is why I say the Muslim voters are in a very precarious position. They are not supporting any party or candidate of their choice. They are under compulsion and they know that the secular parties for whom they cast their votes have not done anything for them. But what is the choice? The BJP? They tend to think the BJP is the greater evil amongst these choices. Invariably, Muslims are not voting for Muslim candidates either. In Bareilly district, Praveen Aron is the Congress candidate. Muslims are going to vote for Aron. The BSP candidate, Islam Sabir, is not confident of getting Muslim votes. In Pilibhit, Maneka Gandhi was always supported by Muslims. Even in Sanjay Gandhi's time Muslims received the couple well. I don't know who provoked Varun to make those (anti-Muslim) statements. Sanjay and Maneka used to stay in (BSP MP) Akbar Ahmed 'Dumpy's farmhouse. Muslims were shocked when their son Varun Gandhi [Images] made those statements. Neoriya Hussainpur town, which is located on the Pilibhit-Almora highway, has a 90 percent Muslim population. Maneka Gandhi used to get 90 percent of their votes. From the same town, Haiji Riyaz, an MLA, is contesting on a Samwajwadi Party ticket against Varun. Riyaz belongs to the Banzara caste; it is a trading community who have 60,000 votes. After Varun Gandhi's speech many Banzaras will not vote for Riyaz. They realise if they vote for him, then Varun Gandhi will win the election so they are shifting their votes to the BSP or V M Singh of the Congress, whoever they think can defeat Varun. Muslims think now no Hindu will cast their vote for the Samajwadi Party because of the communal polarisation brought in by Varun. The Samajwadi Party candidate is dependent on Muslim votes. Precisely for that reason Muslims don't find him good enough and winnable. Yadav voters are few in this area so Riyaz can't bank on their votes. Pilibhit has got many Lodhs, so the BSP gave a ticket to Budhsen Varma. It seems that the division of Muslim votes between the BSP and Congress will help Varun win. Muslim voters are intelligent; they know (Uttar Pradesh Chief Minister) Mayawati [Images] put Varun in jail to get their votes. No political logic will apply across the board in UP. BSP or no BSP, Muslims will not cast their votes for a candidate they feel will lose. Unless there is an issue like the Babri Masjid, Muslims do not vote en masse. Like Hindus they are also divided into castes. If they think that the BJP will win a seat, generally, not specifically, they vote negatively. If they have a choice, then they may vote undivided. I think the Brahmins of UP vote tactically, not Muslims. Brahmins number 9 percent of Hindus in UP. They are more organised because they are literate, have been in power, are cautious and well-informed. Muslims in UP are illiterate and poor, they are difficult to organise. They are generally concentrated in ghettos where they actually compete with each other. Do you know that? Their everyday life revolves within ghettos. In eastern UP there are many constituencies where Brahmins number around 20 percent or so. Mayawati's social engineering worked well there. Her formula works if she attracts Brahmin, Dalits and Muslim votes in her candidate's favour. When Brahmin votes are present, her combination works better because Brahmins vote for Brahmins, but Muslims don't vote for Muslims candidates as a rule. In this part of India religion comes second after caste. Caste is the most important factor amongst Muslims and Hindus during an election. Rampur has the largest concentration of Muslims in UP, but they know that actress and current Samajwadi Party MP Jayaprada has done something for them. Congress candidate Noor Banoo's family has lived in Rampur since Independence, but her family has not done enough development work in the district. Muslims have the lowest literacy rate of 33 percent in Rampur (the literacy rate of Muslims in UP is 48 percent). Now, the view has gone around that the Samajwadi Party has collaborated with Kalyan Singh [Images], the destroyer of the Babri mosque. So Muslims may not vote for Jayaprada despite having a soft corner for her. She is likely to lose the election due to the polarisation set in by Kalyan Singh joining the Samajwadi Party. I think the Jats, Lodhs and Kurmis, the middle-class in UP, has been indoctrinated to a great extent by the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh. Because of the Arya Samaj and BJP influence, their minds have changed. So, Mulayam Singh does not have control over the Yadavs as he did before. All Dalits will support Mayawati but not all Yadavs support Mulayam Singh. No other caste, barring the Dalits, can be taken for granted. I believe the highest number of seats in UP, in spite of incumbency, will go to Mayawati. The Samajwadi Party will come second. The Congress will get just 8 to 12 seats. Day by day, I see that a large population is indoctrinated by the RSS in the urban areas of UP. The BJP will increase its tally in UP. It will get anything between 15 to 20 seats. The BJP has an alliance with Ajit Singh's party which has won so far because of Jat and Muslim votes. But in western UP, there is social tension between the Dalits and Jats. Muslims are not likely to back Ajit Singh this time because of his partnership with the BJP. The scheduled castes and Muslims, who constitute almost 40 percent of the votes, will move towards the Congress or BSP here. In UP, I don't see any uniform trend. In western UP, the Samajwadi Party will lose to the BSP -- Moradabad, Rampur, Pilibhit, Badaon and Bareily. The BSP and Congress are in a direct fight to win over Dalit and Muslim votes to contain the BJP. The biggest problem with the Congress is that it is not a political party. It is a party of political bureaucrats, especially in case of Muslims. They never allow a Muslim leader to emerge from below. They impose Muslim leaders from above. Noor Banoo, Mohsina Kidwai and Salman Khurshid are Muslim leaders in UP who have been imposed from above. Muslims are the football of three players, namely the Samajwadi Party, the BSP and the Congress. Muslims want to cast positive votes, but where is the opportunity? In the given circumstances, Muslims would like to vote for a winning candidate and not for one who will defeat the BJP, but since the Samajwadi Party, BSP and Congress are insensitive to their basic demands they don't have the option of positive voting. Time and again it is proved that maulvis and madrassas are unable to influence Muslim votes. I can tell you that on most Indian issues there are vertical and horizontal divides amongst Muslims. It is a stereotype to say that Muslims are one bloc. Yes, some rare times emotional unity emerges. In 99 percent of events, caste, class and sectarian tensions keeps Indian Muslims divided. To begin with, there is a deep divide between the Shia and Sunnis, Barelvis and Deobandis and then it goes on and on. Sufis are so different from others. Barelvis are popular people who validate the folk and devotional traditions of Islam. But amongst them saints like Shadi Mohammad Sheikh and Cha Madar have different followers. You call all of them merely Muslims. Whenever some worthy leader tries to organise Muslims, the forces against him crop up to take the lot in another direction and the entire attempt fails. What is more worrying is that in spite of the drop in the number of communal riots, we see that communalism has increased in our cities and towns. The RSS kind of idea of exclusion of Muslims is spreading. I think terrorism in Kashmir has affected the psyche of Hindus towards Muslims in India. Indian Muslims understand that whatever is happening in Pakistan is not Islamic nor it is good for humanity. We believe that if the Taliban [Images] was not fighting with America then they would not have got any kind of support whatsoever in the Islamic world. From sabitha_tp at yahoo.co.uk Sun May 3 21:41:44 2009 From: sabitha_tp at yahoo.co.uk (sabitha t p) Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 16:11:44 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] SIT Gujarat-Tridip in Tehelka Message-ID: <494014.23669.qm@web25408.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> A wonderfully poignant article by Tridip Suhrud in Tehelka. My only question is, if we are talking about testaments and testimonies (even of spectatorship), aren't we all implicated, not just Gujarat? Or does moral responsibility only come with the immediacy of proximity?   http://www.tehelka.com/story_main41.asp?filename=Op090509we_the.asp Get an email ID as yourname at ymail.com or yourname at rocketmail.com. Click here http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address From lalitambardar at hotmail.com Mon May 4 00:07:26 2009 From: lalitambardar at hotmail.com (Lalit Ambardar) Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 18:37:26 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] 'In UP, Brahmins do tactical voting, not Muslims In-Reply-To: <65be9bf40905030826t50088734q81d1664228496417@mail.gmail.com> References: <65be9bf40905030826t50088734q81d1664228496417@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: How does one explain the propensity to present Hindus as brahmins, dalits, upper castes, lower castes, jats, and lodhs etc.etc while projecting Muslims as if it was a total homogeneous entity? Dr.Waheed clearly describes SP candidate Haiji Riyaz as belonging to the banzara caste .Dr.Waheed also goes on to say that ‘in 99 percent of events, caste, class and sectarian tensions keeps Indian Muslims divided’ yet why is it that Muslims are still expected to be voting as ‘Muslims’ only? Who benefits by showing Hindus only as a ‘fragmented’ socio- religious group? Dr.Waheed is wrong in his observation ‘I think terrorism in Kashmir has affected the psyche of Hindus towards Muslims in India’. The pan Islamism inspired secessionist terror saw ethnic cleansing of Kashmiri Hindu Pandits in the valley twenty years ago. Kashmiri Hindu Pandits continue to live as refugees in their own country .Yet there has never been any retaliation any where in India. The bulk of the tourists who flock the valley are Hindus. Even during the peak Amarnath land transfer crisis when the proponents of ‘azadi – bare – e- Islam( freedom through Islam) were out in the streets of Srinagar burning ‘national tri colour’ while protesting temporary transfer of land for building of ‘lavatories’ & ‘rest rooms’ for Hindu pilgrims along the arduous pilgrimage route, there was no retaliation. What more, Omar Abdullah’s war cry in the parliament of ‘secular’ India ‘hamari zameen ka muddha tha, ham apni zameen ke liye lade aur marte dam tak apni zameen ke liye ladenge’ (it was the issue of our land, we fought for our land & we will fight for our land till death) referring to the same anti Amarnath land transfer agitation in Kashmir, fetched him thumping applaud from the august ‘secular’ parliamentarians majority of whom happen to be Hindus & political rewards in terms of ‘secular’ appreciation as well as political collaboration. Regards all LA ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 16:26:08 +0100 > From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Subject: [Reader-list] 'In UP, Brahmins do tactical voting, not Muslims > > Dear All > > In an interview with rediff's Sheela Bhatt Dr Abdul Waheed talks about > Muslims in UP. Please notice the way in which the so called 'Islamic > Community' is represented below, as opposed to representation by > members belonging to different 'news traders' like BBC's Suvojit > Bagchi or even those who work for national electronic and print press > who resort to often idiotic and broad generalizations, in the > interview below we get far more fractured, deeply local, complex, and > multi-layered reading of the political choices, that people are going > to make this election season. > > Regards > > Taha > > > In UP, Brahmins do tactical voting, not Muslims' > > Dr Abdul Waheed | May 02, 2009 10:18 IST > Last Updated: May 02, 2009 10:25 IST > > Dr Abdul Waheed, reader in the department of sociology and social work > at the Aligarh Muslim University, is an authority on socio-political > issues related to the Muslims of Uttar Pradesh [Images]. > > He has done his MPhil on 'The Phenomenon of Dowry among Muslims in > India' and his PhD thesis was on the 'Social Structure and Economy of > an Urban Muslim Community: A Case Study of Muslim Banjaras of Baheri, > District Bareilly, UP.' > > His two books -- Muslim Artisans, Craftsmen and Traders: Issues in > Entrepreneurship and Muslims of Uttar Pradesh provides good reference > material for serious studies. > > In his gloomy office at AMU, Dr Waheed spoke to rediff.com's Sheela Bhatt: > > Uttar Pradesh has more than 3 crore (30 million)Muslims. That amounts > for around 23 percent of Indian Muslims. According to the 2001 census, > UP's population was 16 crore (160 million) and Muslims are 18.5 > percent of the population. > > In UP, according to the 2001 census, out of 70 districts (UP now has > 71 districts) 21 districts have a sizable population of Muslims and > are recognised by the government as districts having 'minority > concentration'. > > Ghaziabad, Meerut, Muzzafarnagar, Bijnore, Saharanpur, Moradabad, > Rampur, Bareilly, Pilibhit [Images], Bulandshahr, Badaon, Lucknow > [Images] and Bahraich districts have more than 25 percent but not more > than 50 percent Muslim population. Rampur has the highest > concentration of Muslims in UP along with Bijnore and Moradabad. > > I belong to Bareilly, so I have observed the politics of neighbouring > areas like Rampur, Pilibhit and Moradabad quite closely. > > Muslims of western UP are in a precarious position this election. > > Why? > > Because they believe that no secular party -- whether it is the > Bahujan Samaj Party, Samajwadi Party or the Congress -- has done > anything for them. They thought the Bharatiya Janata Party [Images] is > their enemy party. Now, they are confused what to do? Whether to > defeat the BJP or not? To do so, they are forced to vote for > candidates and parties whom they don't like. > > That is why I say the Muslim voters are in a very precarious position. > They are not supporting any party or candidate of their choice. They > are under compulsion and they know that the secular parties for whom > they cast their votes have not done anything for them. But what is the > choice? The BJP? They tend to think the BJP is the greater evil > amongst these choices. > > Invariably, Muslims are not voting for Muslim candidates either. In > Bareilly district, Praveen Aron is the Congress candidate. Muslims are > going to vote for Aron. The BSP candidate, Islam Sabir, is not > confident of getting Muslim votes. > > In Pilibhit, Maneka Gandhi was always supported by Muslims. Even in > Sanjay Gandhi's time Muslims received the couple well. I don't know > who provoked Varun to make those (anti-Muslim) statements. Sanjay and > Maneka used to stay in (BSP MP) Akbar Ahmed 'Dumpy's farmhouse. > > Muslims were shocked when their son Varun Gandhi [Images] made those > statements. Neoriya Hussainpur town, which is located on the > Pilibhit-Almora highway, has a 90 percent Muslim population. Maneka > Gandhi used to get 90 percent of their votes. From the same town, > Haiji Riyaz, an MLA, is contesting on a Samwajwadi Party ticket > against Varun. > > Riyaz belongs to the Banzara caste; it is a trading community who have > 60,000 votes. After Varun Gandhi's speech many Banzaras will not vote > for Riyaz. They realise if they vote for him, then Varun Gandhi will > win the election so they are shifting their votes to the BSP or V M > Singh of the Congress, whoever they think can defeat Varun. > > Muslims think now no Hindu will cast their vote for the Samajwadi > Party because of the communal polarisation brought in by Varun. The > Samajwadi Party candidate is dependent on Muslim votes. Precisely for > that reason Muslims don't find him good enough and winnable. > > Yadav voters are few in this area so Riyaz can't bank on their votes. > Pilibhit has got many Lodhs, so the BSP gave a ticket to Budhsen > Varma. It seems that the division of Muslim votes between the BSP and > Congress will help Varun win. > > Muslim voters are intelligent; they know (Uttar Pradesh Chief > Minister) Mayawati [Images] put Varun in jail to get their votes. No > political logic will apply across the board in UP. BSP or no BSP, > Muslims will not cast their votes for a candidate they feel will lose. > Unless there is an issue like the Babri Masjid, Muslims do not vote en > masse. Like Hindus they are also divided into castes. > > If they think that the BJP will win a seat, generally, not > specifically, they vote negatively. If they have a choice, then they > may vote undivided. > > I think the Brahmins of UP vote tactically, not Muslims. > > Brahmins number 9 percent of Hindus in UP. They are more organised > because they are literate, have been in power, are cautious and > well-informed. Muslims in UP are illiterate and poor, they are > difficult to organise. They are generally concentrated in ghettos > where they actually compete with each other. Do you know that? > > Their everyday life revolves within ghettos. In eastern UP there are > many constituencies where Brahmins number around 20 percent or so. > Mayawati's social engineering worked well there. Her formula works if > she attracts Brahmin, Dalits and Muslim votes in her candidate's > favour. > > When Brahmin votes are present, her combination works better because > Brahmins vote for Brahmins, but Muslims don't vote for Muslims > candidates as a rule. > > In this part of India religion comes second after caste. Caste is the > most important factor amongst Muslims and Hindus during an election. > > Rampur has the largest concentration of Muslims in UP, but they know > that actress and current Samajwadi Party MP Jayaprada has done > something for them. Congress candidate Noor Banoo's family has lived > in Rampur since Independence, but her family has not done enough > development work in the district. > > Muslims have the lowest literacy rate of 33 percent in Rampur (the > literacy rate of Muslims in UP is 48 percent). > > Now, the view has gone around that the Samajwadi Party has > collaborated with Kalyan Singh [Images], the destroyer of the Babri > mosque. So Muslims may not vote for Jayaprada despite having a soft > corner for her. She is likely to lose the election due to the > polarisation set in by Kalyan Singh joining the Samajwadi Party. > > I think the Jats, Lodhs and Kurmis, the middle-class in UP, has been > indoctrinated to a great extent by the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh. > Because of the Arya Samaj and BJP influence, their minds have changed. > So, Mulayam Singh does not have control over the Yadavs as he did > before. All Dalits will support Mayawati but not all Yadavs support > Mulayam Singh. > > No other caste, barring the Dalits, can be taken for granted. > > I believe the highest number of seats in UP, in spite of incumbency, > will go to Mayawati. The Samajwadi Party will come second. The > Congress will get just 8 to 12 seats. Day by day, I see that a large > population is indoctrinated by the RSS in the urban areas of UP. The > BJP will increase its tally in UP. It will get anything between 15 to > 20 seats. > > The BJP has an alliance with Ajit Singh's party which has won so far > because of Jat and Muslim votes. But in western UP, there is social > tension between the Dalits and Jats. Muslims are not likely to back > Ajit Singh this time because of his partnership with the BJP. > > The scheduled castes and Muslims, who constitute almost 40 percent of > the votes, will move towards the Congress or BSP here. > > In UP, I don't see any uniform trend. In western UP, the Samajwadi > Party will lose to the BSP -- Moradabad, Rampur, Pilibhit, Badaon and > Bareily. The BSP and Congress are in a direct fight to win over Dalit > and Muslim votes to contain the BJP. > > The biggest problem with the Congress is that it is not a political > party. It is a party of political bureaucrats, especially in case of > Muslims. They never allow a Muslim leader to emerge from below. They > impose Muslim leaders from above. Noor Banoo, Mohsina Kidwai and > Salman Khurshid are Muslim leaders in UP who have been imposed from > above. > > Muslims are the football of three players, namely the Samajwadi Party, > the BSP and the Congress. > > Muslims want to cast positive votes, but where is the opportunity? > > In the given circumstances, Muslims would like to vote for a winning > candidate and not for one who will defeat the BJP, but since the > Samajwadi Party, BSP and Congress are insensitive to their basic > demands they don't have the option of positive voting. > > Time and again it is proved that maulvis and madrassas are unable to > influence Muslim votes. I can tell you that on most Indian issues > there are vertical and horizontal divides amongst Muslims. It is a > stereotype to say that Muslims are one bloc. Yes, some rare times > emotional unity emerges. In 99 percent of events, caste, class and > sectarian tensions keeps Indian Muslims divided. > > To begin with, there is a deep divide between the Shia and Sunnis, > Barelvis and Deobandis and then it goes on and on. Sufis are so > different from others. Barelvis are popular people who validate the > folk and devotional traditions of Islam. But amongst them saints like > Shadi Mohammad Sheikh and Cha Madar have different followers. You call > all of them merely Muslims. > > Whenever some worthy leader tries to organise Muslims, the forces > against him crop up to take the lot in another direction and the > entire attempt fails. > > What is more worrying is that in spite of the drop in the number of > communal riots, we see that communalism has increased in our cities > and towns. The RSS kind of idea of exclusion of Muslims is spreading. > I think terrorism in Kashmir has affected the psyche of Hindus towards > Muslims in India. > > Indian Muslims understand that whatever is happening in Pakistan is > not Islamic nor it is good for humanity. We believe that if the > Taliban [Images] was not fighting with America then they would not > have got any kind of support whatsoever in the Islamic world. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________________________________ Drag n’ drop—Get easy photo sharing with Windows Live™ Photos. http://www.microsoft.com/india/windows/windowslive/photos.aspx From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Mon May 4 06:12:42 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 01:42:42 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] 'In UP, Brahmins do tactical voting, not Muslims In-Reply-To: References: <65be9bf40905030826t50088734q81d1664228496417@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <65be9bf40905031742m50f3a801s607a341efc7d264c@mail.gmail.com> Dear Lalit, I appreciate your response however could I add that the issue at hand was not particularly about Kashmir at all it was about something else. The issue at hand was a reflection of how the so called 'Islamic Community' is generally represented in the main stream media and the rediff interview was one of the rare occasion when representation was a bit interesting maybe because of detailing. In face of popular expectations on all those who identify themselves with Islam there are many, who will not vote on expected lines. There are many who will not support a so called Muslim candidate because of whatever reasons and as the much talked about case of a Gujjar candidate from Dausa shows us, there many amongst the so called Hindus, who may vote for a Muslim to favor caste over religion. The point being, our intelligent news traders must show some amount of respect while representing what they think they can call as Islam, because in their haste for hyper real representation they often miss the point. Regards Taha From pawan.durani at gmail.com Mon May 4 10:05:09 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 10:05:09 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Ancient Remains At Multan Message-ID: <6b79f1a70905032135u35bae9ccw95a6103724dd78b5@mail.gmail.com> *Ancient Remains At Multan* ** *By Sanjay Godbole* MR. Anant Joshi, from Pune Maharashtra India resides in Sadashiv Peth, (Peth a residential sector in the city) and is the lawful owner of the temple of Lord “Narsinha” (a Hindu deity in the form of half human and half lion body e.g. incarnation of lord Vishnu). In the March 2004, he successfully obtained a Visa permit from Pakistan and with a view to visit the original location of the incarnation of Lord Narsinha, as detailed in Hindu Mythological scriptures & visited Multan in Pakistan. He photographed some of the ancient remains and ruins of the Hindu culture. During his stay at Multan, he was presented a book in Urdu named “Tarikh-e-Multan” written by Munshi Abdul Rehman Khan and published by “Ulum-Islamia-Chahalak”. Some vital information of the ancient remains and ruins of the Hindu Culture is detailed on Page No. 480 of this book. The translation of the related Urdu matter is as follows :- *Hindu Asar-Bot-E-Multan (Hindu Idols-antiquities of Multan). *In the history of the city of Multan, during the dilivu-an period , the deity called “Aditya” played a substantially vital role. That is exactly why, Multan was, in Arabia addressed as Betul-Juhet, literally means a house full of Gold. The reason is, as stated by Abdul Qassim an Arab Author, “Mohammad Bin-Quasim-got 40 Bhars of Gold (l Bhar equals 380 Maunds and 1 maund equals 40 seers or 20 Kilograms approximately) from a house in Multan. Ester, a contemporary historian, too, has made a statement about Multan that the name of the deity called Aditya, was also “Multan” and that the deity was mounted in a Glorious palace. The location was a big market place near Thatheri Bazar and ivory Bazar. The spot was in the vicinity of the “Pralhad” Temple. Abu Zahid Safi writes about Multan that many pilgrims, after undertaking a tedious journey, lasting many months, visited Multan to obtain glimpses of this deity “Aditya” and brought with them, an incense called Chandan (Sandlewood) the famous Kamrani Dhoop, which was burnt in front of the deity. The then, price of this sandle wood incense was 200 Dinars for 1 maund (40 seers or 20 Kgs.) in 886 AD. Ibn-e-Rasta in the year 906 A.D. Writes that in Multan, there is an idol which is 2000 years old. It is here only, the descendents of “Ibn-e-Manba” dynasty rule the province (Ibn-e-Manba is a branch of Sama bin Louie) on such occassions when Indian rulers, waged war and arrived near Multan, the local and native rulers became alert and kept their Military forces ready for action and showed their valour on the battle field. Masudi, in 905 A.D. writes that the Sultan of Islamic rule, had both the riches and military. The Sultan was having a direct control of one lac twenty thousand towns in the near vicinity of Multan, spread around on all four sides. The famous Hindu temple is here only and the suitan gets a substantial income by the sale of sandle wood, required at the temple for performing religious rituals. The sandle wood was brought to Multan from far off places. Whenever, the Hindu rulers waged war on Multan and had a winning edge, over the Muslims, they (the muslims) threatened that they would destroy the idol of the God and the Hindu Military would retreat and go back. The famous city of Kanauj was also under the control of Multan. Hindus from Sindh province held this idol of Aditya, in a very high esteem and treated it as an emblem of the Almighty and flocked this place frequently without fail, to have glimpses of the deity . After their arrival here, the pilgrims got their heads and beards shaved off. This deity, primafacie had live anthropoid human features and therefore, Mohammed Bin Qassim had, with a view to behead the deity, taken out his sword. This idol was made of pure gold and was inlaid with precious stones. There was a dense forest around the temple, where the pilgrims rested under the trees. *The temple of Pralhad at Multan. *This temple is within the precincts of the old fort of Multan. The popular legend states that this temple was got constructed by Bhakta Pralhad, himself. Bhakta means devotee. It is title associated with Pralhad. It is one of the ancient remains of Hindu religious centres, and faces the Shrine of Hazrat Bahul Haque-Zakeria”. In side the temple, there was an idol of Lord Vishnu in the incarnated form of Narasinha (A half human and half lion form) A grand fete was celebrated, of Narsinha, here in every month of “Jyeshtha”. On that occasion, many fairs and pilgrimages were held. This fete was of great importance for Hindus. Hiranyakashyapu (father of Pralhad) wished to punish Pralhad. So he got one golden pole fabricated. He heated the column from inside and tied Pralhad to it. But Lord Narasinha favoured Pralhad and got the golden pole transformed into a column made of soil and cooled it. The Lord killed Hiranyakashyapu and made Pralhad a king. Multan was earlier known as Kashyappur then. This name was subsequently changed to Pralhadpur, after Pralhad occupied the throne. Sir Alexander Bernas” visited Multan and has mentioned that the Prahlada temple had no roof-top. In the year 1810 A.D., the Hindus collected contributions and got an acme for the temple. This acme was errected at a higher level than that of the dome of the tomb of “Hazarat Zakaria”. This led to rift and disharmony in the two communities. This was one of the first communal riots in Multan. Hindu as a result of the riots, were compelled to reduce the height of the acme, so as to bring it lower than the height of the dome over the tomb. In the year 1848 A.D., the East India companie’s English forces attacked the Multan Fort. Due to the explosives used in and from the artillery, the structure of the temple was badly damaged and the very existence of this ancient structure went into Jeopardy. In the year 1853 A.D. the Temple was conventionally put into non-use and was put out of vogue. The temple finally was reinstated and restored, by using the funds, gathered by way of public contributions. The temple was in a fairly good shape till the year 1992 A.D. This intact temple was destroyed by the Muslims of Multan as a revenge of the Babri Masjid episode on 6th of Dec. 1992. This day, only stray remains of the walls of the temple exist in a dilapidated state. *The Suraj Kund of Multan. *This Surya-kund temple is situated at a distance of 3 kms from Multan. Here is a kund (water tank) which is 10 feet deep and 132 feet long. During the Sikh regime, Shri. Savanmal, got all the four walls, surrounding the tank, constructed. As the legend from the Hindu scripture goes, Lord Narasinha, drank water from this Kunda after he relieved Pralhad from the clutches of Hirankashyapu. The Sun God (Aditya) Surya Devata (Deity) was worshipped at this temple. This place was considered as the second important ancient place in Multan. *The temple of Totalamai. *Totlamai (Mai means mother) is the third important and sacred spot for Hindus in Multan and is situated inside of the Haram Darwaza. In olden days the cities and towns were protected from outside attacks by constructing surrounding walls from all sides and only a few entry points were provided which were called Fasil Ka Darvaza. This temple is called the temple of Totlamai. The deity here is Goddess “Totla. The Mughal King Aurangzeb had thrown the idole of the deity in a well here. The Chief priest of the temple at that times was an expert in Ayurvedic medicines and he treated the son of Aurangzeb and got him cured completely. The priest, as a reward, requested Aurangzeb for the idol of Goddess Totlamai and by royal order, the same was returned to him. The deity was subrogated in the temple. Shri. Savanmal richly contributed for the restoration work. *The temple of Goddess Jog Maya. *This Jogmaya Mandir happens to be the fourth important and sacred religious place in Multan. It is very near from Multan Railway Station and was initially in the form of a stone pedestal. During the regime of Deewan Savanmal (Deewan-Chief Administrator) the temple was errected and Mr. Mulraj completed this construction work. As per the Hindu Mythological Scripture in Mulsthana i.e. Multan, when Lord Narasinha incarnated, many Gods and Goddesses arrived there on the occasion to felicitate him, and amongst them Goddess Jogmaya was one who decided to inhabit and remain present at the spot forever. Here the Navaratri festival was celebrated in the months of Chaitra and Ashwin ( from Hindu calendar months) every year. *RAMTEERTH* This is the fifth important and sacred place in Multan for Hindus. This is the abode of Lord (God) Ramchandra. There is a Kund (Water tank). Which is situated near the place. This is situated on the outside of Delhi Darwaza (Gate) and near Melsi-Duniyapur highway. During the regime of Maharaja Ranjeet Singh, the Kund and the temple were constructed. The festival is celebrated here on the full moon night in the month of Bhadrapada. *Narsinhapuri Mandir *Since this temple was inside the precincts of Multan Fort, the priests could not enter the temple, except for the pre-scheduled timings on account of the restrictions on visiting hours. To remove the cause of this pre-decamental inconvenience, the priest of the temple, got a new temple errected near the sabji mandi and subrogated an idol of Narsinha incarnation. Afterwards, a wealthy devotee of Multan renovated this temple into an elegant and modern one at a cost of rupees ten thousand. *The Other old remains at Multan *Apart from the above, there are a few religiously important remains at Multan. These include the Samadhi of Savanmal outside the gate of the fort. Dnyanshala at Delhi gate, a Kund for the use of Pathashala (School), the Jain temple at Chodisara market and a temple of Lord Shiva. The Hanuman temple in the Chowk area is also very famous. This temple was utilized as a safe refuge, for Hindus during communal riots. The other defence implements and weapons needed during such periods of riots were also stored over here. These implements were mainly used for retaliatory purposes. The Dnyanshala, referred to above topped the list of such hide outs. Source: Kashmir Sentinel From rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com Mon May 4 12:56:31 2009 From: rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com (Rajen Uppinangadi) Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 12:56:31 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] National wastage system, waste bodies in the system. Message-ID: <61164a90905040026i51454f1bobe2d92bb95d525b4@mail.gmail.com> Pyare, Inder, first let her stop her dramatics of sitting in front of police stations for protests, till tv ob vans arrive, instead move the courts for what she thinks is injustice, her publicity stints have damaged the nation, as she goes to Srinagar, she talks of azadi, azadi, if she talks about from the unemployment, no health care and security, it is good, but her azadi is different, of secession, which is settled issue for J &K, she can only invite violence on innocents by her acts.! Not love, neither affection. Regards, Rajen. From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Mon May 4 16:42:53 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 04:12:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Third Letter to Uncle Sam from Saadat Hasan Manto In-Reply-To: <341380d00905030251h1a169ec5v665612c2ca30119e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <124390.29148.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Anupam   Thank you for sharing these pieces by Manto. Great writing that comes through even in the English translation. Khalid Hasan seems to have done a wonderful job in retaining a flavour to the writing.   Of the total of nine such letters, I could find only one additional one (fourth letter) on 'Chowk'. Posting it separately. Do you have any web-source for the balance five?   The translator Khalid Hasan was himself too an accomplished person (died Feb 5, 2009). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalid_Hasan   (Dear Yasir ..... same question for you ..... do you have any web-source for the balance five letters? Also; Has anyone done audio recordings of these letters? I can already imagine what a great job would be done by someone like Zia Mohideen)   Kshmendra    --- On Sun, 5/3/09, anupam chakravartty wrote: From: anupam chakravartty Subject: [Reader-list] Third Letter to Uncle Sam from Saadat Hasan Manto To: "sarai list" Date: Sunday, May 3, 2009, 3:21 PM Third Letter to Uncle Sam Saadat Hasan Manto’s Letters to Uncle Sam Translated by Khalid Hasan*31 Laxmi Mansions, Hall Road, **Lahore* * 15 March 1954* Dear Uncle, Greetings, I write this after a long break. The fact is that I was ill. According to our poetic tradition, the treatment for illness lies in what is called the elixir of joy served by a slender temptress straight out of the quatrains of Omar Khyyam from a long-necked crystal jug. However, I think that is all poetry. Not to speak of the comely cup-bearers, one can’t even find an ugly servant boy with a moustache to play the cup-bearer. Beauty has fled this land. While women have come out from behind the veil, one look at them and you wish they had stayed behind it. Your Max Factor has made them even uglier. You send free wheat, free literature , free arms. Why not send a couple of hundred examples of pure American womanhood here so that they could at least serve a drink as it is supposed to be served? I fell ill because of this blasted liquor – Goddamn it – which is poison, pure and simple. And raw. Not that I did not know, not that I did not understand, but what the poet Meer wrote applies to my condition. *What a simpleton Meer is! The apothecary’s boy who made him fall ill Is the very one he goes to get his medicine * Who knows what Meer found in that apothecary’s boy from whom he sought his medicine when he knew he was ill because of him. The man from whom I buy my poison is far more ill than I am. While I have survived because I am used to a hard life, I see little hope for him. In the three months I was in a hospital’s general ward, no American aid reached me. I think you knew nothing about my illness otherwise you would have surely sent me two or three packages of Terramycin and earned credit in this world and the next. Our foreign publicity leaves a great deal to be desired and our government, in any case, has no interest in writers, poets and painters. Our late lamented government , I recall, appointed Firdausi-i-Islam Hafiz Jullandhri director of the song publicity department at a monthly salary of Rs 1,000. After the establishment of Pakistan, all that was allotted to him was a house and a printing press. Today you pick up the papers and what do you see? Hafiz Jullandhri bewailing his lot, having been thrown out of the committee appointed to compose a national anthem for Pakistan . He is one poet in the country who can write an anthem for this, the world’s largest Islamic state, and even set it to music. He divorced his British wife because the British are gone. He is said to be now looking for an American wife. Uncle, for God’s sake help him there so that he can be saved from a sorry end. (1) The number of your nephews runs into millions but a nephew like yours truly you will not find even if you lit an atom bomb to look for him. Do pay me some attention therefore. All I need is an announcement from you that your country (which may it please God to protect till the end of time) will only help my country ( may Godblight the distilleries of this land) acquire arms if Saadat Hasan Manto is sent over to you. Overnight, my value will go up and after this announcement, I will stop doing ‘Shama’ and ‘Director’ crossword puzzles (2). Important people will come to visit my home and I will ask you to airmail me a typical American grin which I will glue to my face so that I can receive them properly. Such a grin can have a thousand meanings. For instance, ‘You are an ass.’ ‘You are exceptionally brilliant.’ ‘I derived nothing but mental discomfort from this meeting.’ ‘You are a casual-wear shirt made in America.’ ‘You are a box of matches made in Pakistan .’ ‘You are a homemade herbal tonic.’ ‘You are Coca Cola.’ Etc. etc. I want to live in Pakistan because I love this bit of earth, dust from which, incidentally, has lodged itself permanently in my lungs. However, I will certainly visit your country so that I can get my healthback. Barring my lungs, every other organ in my body I will hand over to your experts and ask them to turn them American. I like the American way of life. I also like the design of your casual-wear shirts. It is both a good design and a good billboard. You can print the latest propaganda item on it every day and move from Shezan to Coffee House to Chinese Lunch Home so that everyone can read it. (3) I also want a Packard so that when I go riding in it on the Mall, wearing that shirt with a pipe gifted by you resting between my teeth, all the progressive and non-progressive writers of Lahoreshould come to realise that they have been wasting their time so far. But look uncle you will have to buy petrol for the car, though I promise to write a story as soon as I have the Packard that I would call 'Iran's nine maunds of oil and Radha'. Believe me, the moment the story is printed, all this trouble about Iranian oil will end and Maulana Zafar Ali Khan (4) who is sill alive will have to amend that couplet he once wrote about Lloyd George and oil. Another thing I would want from you would be a tiny, teeny weenie atom bomb because for long I have wished to perform a certain good deed. You will naturally want to know what. You have done many good deeds yourself and continue to do them. You decimated Hiroshima, you turned Nagasaki into smoke and dust and you caused several thousand children to be born in Japan. Each to his own. All I want you to do is to dispatch me some dry cleaners. It is like this. Out here, many Mullah types after urinating pick up a stone and with one hand inside their untied shalwar, use the stone to absorb the after-drops of urine as they resume their walk. This they do in full public view. All I want is that the moment such a person appears, I should be able to pull out that atom bomb you will send me and lob it at the Mullah so that he turns into smoke along with the stone he was holding. As for your military pact with us, it is remarkable and should be maintained. You should sign something similar with India . Sell all your old condemned arms to the two of us, the ones you used in the last war. This junk will thus be off your hands and your armament factories will no longer remain idle. Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru is a Kashmiri, so you should send him a gun which should go off when it is placed in the sun. I am a Kashmiri too, but a Muslim which is why I have asked for a tiny atom bomb for myself. One more thing. We can’t seem able to draft a constitution. Do kindly ship us some experts because while a nation can manage without a national anthem, it cannot do without a constitution, unless such is your wish. One more thing. As soon as you get this letter, send me a shipload of American matchsticks. The matchsticks manufactured here have to be lit with the help of Iranian made matchsticks. And after you have used half the box, the rest are unusable unless you take help from matches made in Russia which behave more like firecrackers than matches. The American topcoats are also excellent and without them our Landa Bazar (5) would be quite barren. But why don’t you send us trousers as well? Don’t you ever take off your trousers? If you do, you probably ship them to India. There has to be a strategy to it because you send us jackets but no trousers which you send to India . When there is a war , it will be your jackets and your trousers. These two will fight each other using arms supplied by you. And what is this I hear about Charlie Chaplin having given up his US citizenship? What did this joker think he was doing? He surely is suffering from communism otherwise why would a man who has lived all his life in your country, made his name there, made his money there, do what he has done? Does he not remember the time when he used to beg in the streets of London and nobody took any notice of him! Why did he not go to Russia? But then there is no shortage of jokers there. Perhaps he should go to England so that its residents learn to laugh heartily like Americans. As it is, they always look so somber and superior? It is time some of their pretense came off. I now close my letter with a freestyle kiss to Heddy Lamarr. Your nephew, *Saadat Hasan Manto * Footnotes: 1) Hafiz Jullandhri was one of Urdu’s leading poets before independence and gained popularity for his poetic epic based on the history of Islamthat he called ‘Shahnama0e- Islam ’. He was likened to the great medieval Persian poet Firdausi who wrote the famous epic poem called Shahnama. Hafiz was often called Firdausi-e-Islam. After independence he was assigned to write the Pakistani national anthem that he did. However, he always felt that his service had not been recognized to the extent they deserved. Manto did not think much of him, either as a poet or a man. 2) ‘Shama’, Delhi , and ‘Director’, Lahore, were two popular magazines of the time that ran crossword puzzle competitions that offered generous cash prizes. 3) Zelin’s Coffee House, Pak Tea House and Cheney’s Lunch Home, all located on the Mall were Lahore ’s most popular restaurants at the time where writers and intellectuals hung out. Only Pak Tea House has survived though teetering on the brink of bankruptcy. 4) Maulana Zafar Ali Kahn, prolific poet, writer and journalist who founded the Urdu daily ‘Zamindar’ from Lahore . He died in the early 1950s. 5) Landa Bazar, Lahore ’s famous second hand clothes market. _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Mon May 4 17:13:56 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 04:43:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Fourth Letter to Uncle Sam from Saadat Hasan Manto Message-ID: <843377.46640.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> (Thanks are due to Anupam Chakravartty who brought to attention these letters)   Two other pieces credited to Manto, followed by the "Fourth Letter to Uncle Sam"   Kshmendra      1. PRAYER BY MANTO:   “Dear God, Compassionate and Merciful, Master of the Universe, we who are steeped in sin, kneel in supplication before Your throne and beseech You to recall from this world Saadat Hasan Manto, son of Ghulam Hasan Manto, who was a man of great piety. Take him away, O Lord, for he runs off from fragrance, chasing filth. He hates the bright sun, preferring dark labyrinths. He has nothing but contempt for modesty but is fascinated by the naked and the shameless. He hates what is sweet, but will give his life to sample what is bitter. He does not so much as look at housewives but is entranced by the company of whores. He will not go near running waters, but loves to wade through slush. Where others weep, he laughs; where they laugh, he weeps. Evil-blackened faces he loves to wash with tender care to highlight their features. He never thinks about You, preferring to follow Satan everywhere, the same fallen angel who once disobeyed You”.   2. MANTO's POSTSCRIPT FOR ONE OF HIS COLLECTIONS   “You the reader know me as a story writer and the courts of this country know me as a pornographer. The government sometimes calls me a communist, at other times, a great writer. Most of the time, I am denied all means of livelihood, only to be offered opportunities of gainful work on other occasions. I have been called an expendable appendage to society and accordingly expelled. And sometimes I am told that my name has been placed on the state-approved list. As in the past, so today, I have tried to understand what I am. I want to know what is my place in this country that is called the largest Islamic state in the world. What use am I here? You may call it my imagination, but the bitter truth is that so far I have failed to find a place for myself in this country called Pakistan which I greatly love. That is why I am always restless. That’s why sometimes I am to be found in a lunatic asylum, other times in a hospital. I have yet to find a niche in Pakistan”. http://www.aparnaonline.com/manto.html     3. Fourth Letter to Uncle Sam Khalid Hasan May 27, 2005   Saadat Hasan Manto’s Letters to Uncle Sam Translated by Khalid Hasan 31 Laxmi Mansions, Hall Road, Lahore 21 February 1954 Dear Uncle, I wrote to you only a few days ago and here I am writing again. My admiration and respect for you are going up at about the same rate as your progress towards a decision to grant military aid to Pakistan. I tell you I feel like writing a letter a day to you. Regardless of India and the fuss it is making, you must sign a military pact with Pakistan because you are seriously concerned about the stability of the world’s largest Islamic state since our mullah is the best antidote to Russian communism. Once military aid starts flowing, the first people you should arm are these mullahs. They would also need American-made rosaries and prayer mats, not to forget small stones that they use to soak up the after-drops following a call of nature. Cutthroat razors and scissors should be top of the list, as well as American hair color lotions. That should keep these fellows happy and in business. If this gang of mullahs is armed in the American style, the Soviet Union that hawks communism and socialism in our country will have to shut shop. I can visualize the mullahs, their hair trimmed with American scissors and their pajamas stitched by American machines in strict conformity with the Sharia. The stone they use for their after-drops of you know what will be American, untouched by human hand, and their prayer mats would be American too. Everyone will then become your camp follower, owing allegiance to you and none else. It is obvious that you will do your best to uplift the lower and the lower-middle class in this country and those you need for your work will be recruited from these ranks. Even the clerks and peons employed in various offices would come from this source. The salaries paid would conform to American standards and once they find themselves in money, communism will vanish like a perished soul. Recruitment of personnel I have no problem with but what I don’t want here are your soldiers as I would not like to see our girls turning their backs on our young men for yours. I have no doubt the young men you send over would be healthy and handsome. I would also like you to know that our upper class has no qualms about anything anymore, having divested itself of its inhibitions at your American laundry. As for the lower classes, they do continue to have certain reservations when it comes to such things. You may like to send out American girls adept at providing first aid and teaching our young men how to dance and kiss in public so as to make them less self-conscious. It can only be to your benefit. If you can show hundreds of bare legs in the movie Bathing Beauty, why cant we take a leaf out of your book and replicate those legs here so that we are able to use our only movie studio Shahnoor to make a movie that we can show to members of APWA in order to bring them pleasure. Yes, a strange thing called APWA has taken birth here which keeps the wives and daughters of important men suitably amused. APWA is short for the All Pakistan Women’s Association. I can’t make it any shorter, but what is getting shorter are the blouses its members wear, short enough for people to see their bare midriffs. What is funny is that these itsy-bitsy things are sported by women over the age of forty. The years have not been too kind to their midriffs, as is to be expected. I have a confession. I cannot stand the sight of midriffs lined by age, be their owners American or Pakistani. APWA members are always ready for ideas relating to scanty attire as long as someone can provide them with the right know-how. Women in your country can be sixty-five years of age and yet their midriffs look taut. It only makes you wonder how exactly they give birth to children. Maybe they know of a technique that can ensure both the birth of the baby and the skin over their middle being spared the ravages of childbirth. It may not be a bad idea to dispatch a couple of Hollywood experts here who know everything there is to know about skimpy outfits. Plastic surgery in your country has been turned into a fine art. We need at least six of your plastic surgeons who could rejuvenate some of our women so that their modish ways remain consistent with their looks. In our traditional poetry, the beloved was supposed to have no waist. Our new poetry is otherwise where the beloved’s waist is like a solid tree trunk. Uncle, why don’t you pay us a visit before you sign that military pact so that it could finally be decided whether the beloved should or should not have a waist. One more thing. Your moviemakers are taking a great deal of interest in the Indian film industry. We cannot tolerate this. Recently, when Gregory Peck was in India, he had himself photographed with the film star Surayya whose beauty he went on record to admire. Another American moviemaker put his arms around our star Nargis and kissed her. This is not right. Have all Pakistani actresses croaked that they should be ignored! We have Gulshan Ara. She may be black as a pot but she has appeared as the lead in many movies. She also is said to have a big heart. As for Sabiha, while it is true that she is slightly cross-eyed, a little attention from you can take care of that.[1] We have also heard that you are providing financial assistance to Indian moviemakers. Uncle what is the meaning of this? It seems anyone, just anyone, who comes to call on you gets what he wants. Let your Gregory Peck go to hell (I am sorry I am getting angry). I suggest that you send two or three of your actresses because our lone hero Santosh Kumar is lonely. Recently he went to Karachi, where he drank a thousand bottles of Coca Cola and dreamt of Rita Hayworth all night. There is something about lipstick that I need to mention to you. The kiss-proof lipstick that you sent over did not gain much popularity with our upper-class ladies. Both young girls and older women swear that by no means is it kiss-proof. My own view is that the problem lies with the way they kiss which is all wrong. Some people kiss as if they were eating watermelon. A book published in your country called The Art of Kissing is quite useless here because one can learn nothing from it. You may instead like to fly an American girl over who can teach our upper classes that there is a difference between kissing and eating watermelon. There is no need to explain the difference to lower and lower-middle class people because they have no interest in such matters and will remain the way they are. You will be pleased to know that my stomach by now is quite used to American wheat. Your wheat and our eating habits seem to be compatible because we turn your wheat into chapattis. As a gesture of goodwill, you should also import some Pakistani wheat. Your soil being fertile, this new variety of Pakistani-American wheat will take root easily. It may even result in the birth of a new man whose progeny may be different from ours. I would like to ask you in confidence if it is true (I have read this somewhere) that in Delhi, young women have been seen walking about at night with tiny lights twinkling in their hair. The report said that some of them tucked these tiny lights inside their blouses. If this was your idea, you have my compliments. Why not prepare a powder that when rubbed would light up the entire body, making it leap out of clothes. Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru is an old-fashioned man. After all, he is the disciple of the man who told young men to cover their eyes so that they were not able to look at women. The other day, he told the women of India to take care how they dressed and to give up the use of makeup. But who is going to listen to him! Hollywood, women are always willing to listen to. So I ask you to rush this powder to India. Pandit Nehru’s reaction would be most amusing. Enclosed in this envelope is the picture of a Pakistani woman who is dressed like a fisherwoman from Bombay. Her bare midriff is visible. It is a little teaser from our Pakistani women to yours. I hope you will accept it. Your obedient nephew, Saadat Hasan Manto http://www.chowk.com/articles/9175   From c.anupam at gmail.com Mon May 4 17:16:06 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 17:16:06 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Third Letter to Uncle Sam from Saadat Hasan Manto In-Reply-To: <124390.29148.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <341380d00905030251h1a169ec5v665612c2ca30119e@mail.gmail.com> <124390.29148.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <341380d00905040446s45d0bd14na880e6bddc0d4298@mail.gmail.com> Dear Inder and Kshmendra, Thanks for posting your comments. though i do not have the fourth and fifth letter. cheers anupam On 5/4/09, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > Dear Anupam > > Thank you for sharing these pieces by Manto. Great writing that comes > through even in the English translation. Khalid Hasan seems to have done a > wonderful job in retaining a flavour to the writing. > > Of the total of nine such letters, I could find only one additional one > (fourth letter) on 'Chowk'. Posting it separately. Do you have any > web-source for the balance five? > > The translator Khalid Hasan was himself too an accomplished person (died > Feb 5, 2009). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalid_Hasan > > (Dear Yasir ..... same question for you ..... do you have any web-source > for the balance five letters? Also; Has anyone done audio recordings of > these letters? I can already imagine what a great job would be done by > someone like Zia Mohideen) > > Kshmendra > > > > --- On *Sun, 5/3/09, anupam chakravartty * wrote: > > > From: anupam chakravartty > Subject: [Reader-list] Third Letter to Uncle Sam from Saadat Hasan Manto > To: "sarai list" > Date: Sunday, May 3, 2009, 3:21 PM > > Third Letter to Uncle Sam Saadat Hasan Manto’s Letters to Uncle Sam > Translated by Khalid Hasan*31 Laxmi Mansions, > Hall Road, **Lahore* * > > 15 March 1954* > > Dear Uncle, > > Greetings, > > I write this after a long break. The fact is that I was ill. According to > our poetic tradition, the treatment for illness lies in what is called the > elixir of joy served by a slender temptress straight out of the quatrains of > Omar Khyyam from a long-necked crystal jug. However, I think that is all > poetry. Not to speak of the comely cup-bearers, one can’t even find an ugly > servant boy with a moustache to play the cup-bearer. > > Beauty has fled this land. While women > have > come out from behind the veil, one look at them and you wish they had stayed > behind it. Your Max Factor has made them even uglier. You send free wheat, > free literature , free arms. Why not > send a couple of hundred examples of pure American womanhood here so that > they could at least serve a drink as it is supposed to be served? > > I fell ill because of this blasted liquor – > Goddamn it – which is poison, pure and > simple. And raw. Not that I did not > know, not that I did not understand, but what the poet Meer wrote applies to > my condition. > > *What a simpleton Meer is! > The apothecary’s boy who made him fall ill > Is the very one he goes to get his medicine > * > Who knows what Meer found in that apothecary’s boy from whom he sought his > medicine when he knew he was ill because of him. The man from whom I buy my > poison is far more ill than I am. While I have survived because I am used to > a hard life, I see little hope for him. > > In the three months I was in a hospital’s general ward, no American aid > reached me. I think you knew nothing about my illness otherwise you would > have surely sent me two or three packages of Terramycin and earned credit in > this world and the next. > > Our foreign publicity leaves a great deal to be desired and our > government, > in any case, has no interest in writers, poets and painters. > > Our late lamented government , I > recall, appointed Firdausi-i-Islam Hafiz > Jullandhri director of the song publicity department at a monthly salary of > Rs 1,000. After the establishment of > Pakistan, > all that was allotted to him was a house and a printing press. Today you > pick up the papers and what do you see? Hafiz Jullandhri bewailing his lot, > having been thrown out of the committee appointed to compose a national > anthem for Pakistan . He is one poet > in > the country who can write an anthem for this, the world’s largest Islamic > state, and even set it to > music. > He divorced his British wife because the British are gone. He is said to be > now looking for an American wife. Uncle, for > God’s > sake help him there so that he can be saved from a sorry end. (1) > > The number of your nephews runs into millions but a nephew like yours truly > you will not find even if you lit an atom bomb to look for him. Do pay me > some attention therefore. All I need is an announcement from you that your > country (which may it please God to > protect > till the end of time) will only help my country ( may > Godblight the distilleries of this land) > acquire arms if Saadat Hasan Manto is > sent over to you. > > Overnight, my value will go up and after this announcement, I will stop > doing ‘Shama’ and ‘Director’ crossword puzzles (2). Important people > will > come to visit my home and I will ask you to airmail me a typical American > grin which I will glue to my face so that I can receive them properly. > > Such a grin can have a thousand meanings. For instance, ‘You are an ass.’ > ‘You are exceptionally brilliant.’ ‘I derived nothing but mental > discomfort > from this meeting.’ ‘You are a casual-wear shirt made in America.’ ‘You > are > a box of matches made in Pakistan .’ > ‘You > are a homemade herbal tonic.’ ‘You are Coca Cola.’ Etc. etc. > > I want to live in Pakistan because I > love this bit of earth, dust from which, > incidentally, has lodged itself permanently in my lungs. However, I will > certainly visit your country so that I can get my > healthback. Barring my lungs, every > other organ in my body I will hand over to > your experts and ask them to turn them American. > > I like the American way of life. I also like the design of your casual-wear > shirts. It is both a good design and a good billboard. You can print the > latest propaganda item on it every day and move from Shezan to Coffee House > to Chinese Lunch Home so that everyone can read it. (3) > > I also want a Packard so that when I go riding in it on the Mall, wearing > that shirt with a pipe gifted by you resting between my teeth, all the > progressive and non-progressive writers of > Lahoreshould come to realise that > they have been wasting their time so far. > > But look uncle you will have to buy petrol for the car, though I promise to > write a story as soon as I have the Packard that I would call 'Iran's > nine > maunds of oil and Radha'. Believe me, the moment the story is printed, all > this trouble about Iranian oil will end and Maulana Zafar Ali Khan (4) who > is sill alive will have to amend that couplet he once wrote about Lloyd > George and oil. > > Another thing I would want from you would be a tiny, teeny weenie atom bomb > because for long I have wished to perform a certain good deed. You will > naturally want to know what. > > You have done many good deeds yourself and continue to do them. You > decimated Hiroshima, you turned Nagasaki into smoke and dust and you caused > several thousand children to be born > in > Japan. Each to his own. All I want you to do is to dispatch me some dry > cleaners. It is like this. Out here, many Mullah types after urinating pick > up a stone and with one hand inside their untied shalwar, use the stone to > absorb the after-drops of urine as they resume their walk. This they do in > full public view. All I want is that the moment such a person appears, I > should be able to pull out that atom bomb you will send me and lob it at the > Mullah so that he turns into smoke along with the stone he was holding. > > As for your military pact with us, it > is > remarkable and should be maintained. You should sign something similar with > India . Sell all your old condemned arms > to > the two of us, the ones you used in the last > war. > This junk will thus be off your hands and your armament factories will no > longer remain idle. > > Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru is a Kashmiri, > so > you should send him a gun which should go off when it is placed in the sun. > I am a Kashmiri too, but a Muslim which is why I have asked for a tiny atom > bomb for myself. > > One more thing. We can’t seem able to draft a > constitution. > Do kindly ship us some experts because while a nation can manage without a > national anthem, it cannot do without a > constitution, > unless such is your wish. > > One more thing. As soon as you get this letter, send me a shipload of > American matchsticks. The matchsticks manufactured here have to be lit with > the help of Iranian made matchsticks. And after you have used half the box, > the rest are unusable unless you take help from matches made in Russia which > behave more like firecrackers than matches. > > The American topcoats are also excellent and without them our Landa Bazar > (5) would be quite barren. But why don’t you send us trousers as well? > Don’t > you ever take off your trousers? If you do, you probably ship them to > India. > There has to be a strategy to it because you send us jackets but no trousers > which you send to India . When there is a > war , it will be your jackets and your > trousers. These two will fight each other using arms supplied by you. > > And what is this I hear about Charlie Chaplin having given up his US > citizenship? What did this joker think he was doing? He surely is suffering > from communism otherwise why would a man who has lived all his life in your > country, made his name there, made his money there, do what he has done? > Does he not remember the time when he used to beg in the streets of London > and nobody took any notice of him! > > Why did he not go to Russia? But then there is no shortage of jokers there. > Perhaps he should go to England so that its residents learn to laugh > heartily like Americans. As it is, they always look so somber and superior? > It is time some of their pretense came off. > > I now close my letter with a freestyle kiss to Heddy Lamarr. > > Your nephew, > > *Saadat Hasan Manto * > > > Footnotes: > > 1) Hafiz Jullandhri was one of Urdu’s leading poets before independence and > gained popularity for his poetic epic based on the history of > Islamthat he called ‘Shahnama0e- > Islam ’. He was likened to the great > medieval Persian poet Firdausi who wrote the famous epic poem called > Shahnama. Hafiz was often called > Firdausi-e-Islam. > After independence he was assigned to write the Pakistani national anthem > that he did. However, he always felt that his service had not been > recognized to the extent they deserved. Manto did not think much of him, > either as a poet or a man. > > 2) ‘Shama’, Delhi , and > ‘Director’, > Lahore, > were two popular magazines of the time that ran crossword puzzle > competitions that offered generous cash prizes. > > 3) Zelin’s Coffee House, Pak Tea House and Cheney’s Lunch Home, all located > on the Mall were Lahore ’s most > popular > restaurants at the time where writers and intellectuals hung out. Only Pak > Tea House has survived though teetering on the brink of bankruptcy. > > 4) Maulana Zafar Ali Kahn, prolific poet, writer and journalist who founded > the Urdu daily ‘Zamindar’ from Lahore > . He > died in the early 1950s. > > 5) Landa Bazar, Lahore ’s famous > second > hand clothes market. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Mon May 4 21:03:01 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 16:33:01 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] MNIC: Parliament Questions - 12 Message-ID: <65be9bf40905040833i4299bfe5hadf84b57dca3ed6e@mail.gmail.com> http://164.100.47.132/psearch/QResult13.aspx?qref=10434 GOVERNMENT OF INDIA MINISTRY OF LAW , JUSTICE AND COMPANY AFFAIRS LOK SABHA UNSTARRED QUESTION NO 4805 ANSWERED ON 24.08.2000 PHOTO IDENTITY CARDS TO VOTERS IN ASSAM AND MIZORAM 4805 . Shri RAJEN GOHAIN (a) whether the Government propose to re-start the process of issuance of photo identity cards to voters in Assam and Mizoram; and (b) if so, the time by which the process is likely to be re-started and completed? OF THE MINISTRY OF INFORMATION AND BROADCASTING (INDEPENDENT CHARGE) AND ANSWER THE MINISTER OF STATE OF THE MINISTRY OF LAW, JUSTICE AND COMPANY AFFAIRS (INDEPENDENT CHARGE) (SHRI ARUN JAITLEY) (a) and (b): The Election Commission has informed that it does not consider it opportune at the present juncture to restart issuance of photo identity cards to voters in Assam and Mizoram From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Mon May 4 21:06:06 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 16:36:06 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Alternative photo ID can be used for May 7 elections Message-ID: <65be9bf40905040836n3ebfcd40u78bc1d9618f7ed3a@mail.gmail.com> http://www.inditop.com/politics/alternative-photo-id-can-be-used-for-may-7-elections Alternative photo ID can be used for May 7 elections * Monday, May 4, 2009, 14:02 New Delhi, May 4 (Inditop) Haven’t got an electors’ photo identity card? Use your alternative photo identity proof and vote in Delhi May 7 for the Lok Sabha elections. According to the Delhi chief electoral office, there are over 1.6 million people in the national capital who have not received their photo identity cards. “There are 1,665,097 voters in Delhi whose names appear in the electoral roles in Delhi but have not received Electors Photo Identity Cards (EPIC). They can carry any one among 13 alternative photo identity cards and show it at the polling booth for exercising their franchise,” deputy chief electoral officer (CEO) J.K. Sharma told IANS. A voter is allowed to exercise his/her franchise only after he/she shows a photo identity card to a polling officer. Over 11 million electors are eligible to cast their votes for the seven parliamentary seats in Delhi May 7. The documents that can be shown in place of EPIC include passports, driving licences, income tax identity (PAN) cards, service identity cards of the employees of state and central government, besides PSUs, passbooks issued by banks and post offices. Arms licence, physical handicap document, property documents such as registered deed with photograph, pension document, SC/ST/OBC certificates issued by a competent authority, freedom fighter identity cards, job cards issued under National Rural Employment Guarantee Act (NREGA) and health insurance scheme smart cards with photographs are also valid as an alternate to EPIC. From siddharth.narrain at gmail.com Tue May 5 10:52:58 2009 From: siddharth.narrain at gmail.com (siddharth narrain) Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 10:52:58 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Invite to Seminar on The Continued Incarceration of Dr. Binayak Sen In-Reply-To: <52cddec0905042215i5fee48b1od30da5e7bd5916ee@mail.gmail.com> References: <52cddec0905042215i5fee48b1od30da5e7bd5916ee@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1773a06d0905042222h705360a6gc92c228865144110@mail.gmail.com> *The Campaign for the Release of Binayak Sen* invites you to a public seminar * The Continued Incarceration of Dr. Binayak Sen:What does it mean for Indian Democracy? * It is almost two years since Dr. Binayak Sen was arrested by the Chhattisgarh government for alleged 'crimes against the state'. Civil society has in the intervening period been deeply disturbed about this most unjust incarceration. All major cities across the globe and within India have seen protests, signature campaigns, discussions, and media awareness events all of which have attempted to raise awareness and make the state respond to the concerns of ordinary citizens. It is a telling comment on the nature of Indian democracy, that two years down the line we are still engaged in this struggle to free a man who should never have been imprisoned. We see the struggle to free Dr. Binayak Sen as not just the struggle to secure the liberty of one man but rather a struggle, which in its many dimensions encompasses the very idea of India. It is a struggle which strives to protect and defend those who work to secure the Preambular promise of social and economic justice, it is a struggle against unjust and arbitrary state terror directed at those with the deepest Constitutional commitments and it is in every sense a struggle about the ethical content and meaning we wish to give to the Indian Constitution. To understand and to reflect upon the many meanings of the struggle to free Dr. Binayak Sen and to renew our commitment to this highly significant struggle, we invite you to this public seminar. *Date:* May 9th, 2009 (Saturday) *Time*: 2 pm to 5 pm *Venue*: SCM House, 29, 2nd Cross, Mission Road, Bangalore. *Speakers*: Dr K. Balagopal,(Human Rights Forum, Hyderabad) B.V. Seetharam (Karavali Ale, Mangalore), and B.N. Jagadeesha (Alternative Law Forum, Bangalore) * Schedule*: *Session 1*: (2 p.m.) “Binayak Sen and the Constitutional Imagination of India” - Lecture by* Dr. K. Balagopa*l, Advocate and Member, Human Rights Forum, Hyderabad. *Session 2*: (2:30 p.m.) “Targeting Human Rights Activists in Karnataka” – Presentation by *Jagadeesh B.N*., Advocate, Alternative Law Forum. *Session 3*: (3 p.m.)* B.V. Seetharam*, editor of* Karavali Ale*, on his experiences in Dakshina Kannada *Session 4*: (3.30 p.m- 5 p.m.):* Discussion* For further queries please call 9845001168. *For those interested, Anand Teltumble is releasing a Kannada translation of the book, Khairlanji at the same venue (SCM House) from 10:30 am to 1 pm* ------- From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Tue May 5 11:29:36 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 11:29:36 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Article on politics and its need Message-ID: Dear all With elections going on, I found this article quite good and actually showing off the problem with our middle class, as well as the kind of activity which may be actually required to secure our politics and also our lives. Do read it, and I hope you will enjoy. Regards Rakesh Article: *Alternatives to politics vs alternative politics * Here is a paradox about political participation in this election. On the one hand, the evidence on voter turnout suggests a mild decline in popular participation. The final data for the first phase indicates a one percentage point drop and the second phase a two percentage point drop compared to figures in the same areas for 2004. On the other hand, the final list of candidates released by the Election Commission shows a sharp jump compared to the previous elections. After the EC introduced a vast range of measures to curb ‘non-serious’ candidates in 1997, the average number of candidates per constituency fell to a little less than nine in 1998 and 1999 and 10 in 2004. This time, the average number of candidates per constituency has risen sharply to a little over 14. What accounts for the decline and rise in these two forms of political participation? We might think of specific but separate reasons to explain them. Decline in turnout could be the result of the scorching heat, a dull national-level campaign, and the increasingly strict requirements for voter identification. The rise in the number of candidates could be a function of a lower threshold of victory in multi-cornered contests. The success of parties such as the Pattali Makkal Katchi has spawned many a hopeful. Also, as political parties become closed to new entrants and lack democratic avenues of upward mobility, the only way to register presence within a political party is to go out and contest the election as an Independent. These factors contribute to the increase in candidates as well as the rise in ‘non-serious’ ones. There is another way of resolving this paradox. Both sides of it can be interpreted as different responses to the lack of political choices offered in this election. Although the party system has opened up in the last two decades, there has also been a convergence among political parties. Voters get to choose from more of the same. The same phenomenon appears to have contributed at least partly to the rise in the number of candidates. Activist citizens and organisations respond to the lack of choice by trying to forge alternatives. Some people decide to stand for elections and some organisations put up candidates. Viewed in this light, the current election represents an attempt to forge an alternative to mainstream politics. Never before has an election witnessed so many attempts by individuals, movements and organisations outside the mainstream to intervene in the political process. Arguably, this development, more than the messy outcome of this increasingly close electoral race, holds greater relevance for the future of Indian politics. The relevance of this seems to have escaped the media’s attention. Yes, the media — print, radio, TV and internet — did highlight many high-profile voter awareness campaigns. Yes, celebrity candidates such as Mallika Sarabhai, Captain G. R. Gopinath and Meera Sanyal received considerable media space. The media was also generous in highlighting how some of the film stars, models and role models took voting very seriously. For once, voting was made to appear ‘cool.’ But such things were the least significant aspect of the new phenomenon of citizen involvement in electoral politics. The attention given to the politics of anti-politics, in line with the anti-politician protests in Mumbai after 26/11, led to high expectations and an inevitable disappointment once the turnout figures were known. This is a reminder of a basic lesson in politics: there are no short-cuts to building an alternative politics. Those who engage in politician bashing for five years cannot expect their all-too brief campaigns to yield an involved and committed citizenry. The only route is to take politics seriously and painstakingly build political organisations. For all their faults, this is what mainstream political parties do, or at least did to begin with. What the media missed completely were those initiatives that recognised the nature of this challenge. This election witnessed at least two kinds of organised and serious attempts at strengthening alternative politics. The first relates to attempts to influence the agenda of political contestation and the level of citizens’ involvement by organisations that did not contest elections. Such attempts could be called non-party political initiatives. These include several independent initiatives to influence the party agenda and to develop people’s manifestos. Besides these, the National Election Watch campaign has analysed all the affidavits filed by candidates and alerted us to the presence of moneybags and those with criminal records. Conducted by the Association for Democratic Reforms, this campaign is an example of how a small group of dedicated citizens can make a difference to the quality of democracy. Janagraha’s One Billion Votes campaign was an example of how urban middle class-centred initiatives can play a valuable role, if sustained and serious. The National Alliance for Peoples Movements and many other groups came together in an unusual campaign ‘Chunav par Nazar’, that travelled across the country, highlighting the real issues of ordinary people. Supported by many leading intellectuals and activists, this self-avowedly political campaign supported and opposed a few candidates. Secondly, there were many organisations that took up the difficult task of making a direct intervention, by putting up candidates. The boldest and best known of these initiatives was that of the Lok Satta party in Andhra Pradesh. Led by former bureaucrat Dr. Jayaprakash Narayan, the energy, the organisational seriousness and public transparency of this party has set an example for future attempts at alternative politics. Some other attempts did not figure at all in the national and regional media as they were more localised and did not have a media-savvy middle class face. Karnataka Sarvodaya, an extraordinary political party that has emerged from Dalit and farmers’ movements, put up four candidates in Karnataka. The Samajwadi Jan Parishad, a political formation born from the grassroots, fielded seven candidates in Kerala, Maharashtra, Madhya Pradesh, Uttar Pradesh, Orissa and West Bengal. The performance of its candidate in Bargarh Assembly constituency in Orissa merits close attention. The Tamil Nadu Women’s Front and the Jharkhand Ulgoolan Party have put up two candidates each. Several ‘lok ummeedvar’ (peoples’ candidates) have been fielded by groups in U.P. and M.P. Many of these groups have come together under a national umbrella called the Lok Rajniti Manch. These parties and candidates may not appear ‘successful’ when votes are counted on May 16. Their success or failure should be measured by the extent to which they succeed in responding to the paradox of political participation. The growing lack of political choices cannot be countered by celebrity candidates or high-profile media or NGO campaigns. Attempts to look in this direction can only deepen a sense of frustration and helplessness. The real challenge is to turn disenchantment with politics and politicians into a creative force for an alternative kind of politics. Election 2009 is a small but vital step in that direction. [*Yogendra Yadav is a Senior Fellow at CSDS and is associated with the Lok Rajniti Manch and the Samajwadi Jan Parishad mentioned in this article*] Link: http://www.hindu.com/2009/05/04/stories/2009050455401200.htm From gif at 220hex.org Tue May 5 13:01:23 2009 From: gif at 220hex.org (h220) Date: Tue, 05 May 2009 09:31:23 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] Piksel09 :: Call for Projects Message-ID: <200905050931.24015.gif@220hex.org> [[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]] ** Piksel09 november 19-22 2009 Bergen, Norway [[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]] Piksel [1] is an international event for artists and developers working with Free/Libre and Open Source technologies in artistic practice. Part workshop, part festival, it is organised in Bergen, Norway,and involves participants from more than a dozen countries exchanging ideas, coding, presenting art and software projects, doing workshops, performances and discussions on the aesthetics and politics of FLOSS & art. This years event - Piksel09 - continues the exploration of free/libre and open source technologies and it’s myriad of expressions within the arts. Piksel09 is organised in collaboration with Gallery 3,14 [2] and Lydgalleriet [3] which will host this years exhibitions, Bergen Kunstmuseum [4] hosting the presentations and panels, and Bergen Kunsthall/Landmark [5] hosting the evening events. [[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]] ** open CALL for PROJECTS For the exhibitions and other parts of the programme we currently seek projects in the following categories: 1. Installations Projects to be included in the exhibitions at Galleri 3,14 and Lydgalleriet. The works must be programmed by and running on free and open source software and/or open/DIY hardware. 2. Audiovisual performance Live art realised by the use of free and open source software. We specially encourage live coding and open/DIY hardware projects to apply. 3. Presentations Innovative DIY hardware and audiovisual software tools or software art released under an open licence. (Also includes presentations of artistic projects realised using these technologies.) 4. Workshops Hands on workshops utilising free software and/or open/DIY hardware for artistic use. !!!!!!!!!! Deadline - july 15. 2009 !!!!!!!!!! Please use the online submit form at: http://piksel.no/ocs or send documentation material - preferably as a URL to online documentation with images/video to piksel09 [AT] piksel [DOT] no [[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]] Contact: Piksel att: Gisle Fr0ysland Georgernes Verft 12 5011 Bergen Norway More info: http://www.piksel.no Piksel09 is supported by Arts Council Norway, City of Bergen Cultural Office, Hordaland County Cultural Office and others. links: [1] http://www.piksel.no [2] http://www.stiftelsen314.com [3] http://www.lydgalleriet.no [4] http://www.bergenartmuseum.no [5] http://www.kunsthall.no/default.asp?k=6 -- From jeebesh at sarai.net Tue May 5 14:03:48 2009 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh) Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 14:03:48 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Lost Banality Of Evil Message-ID: <4C47519D-49C5-4A20-AC82-97FC267CC0E3@sarai.net> dear All, Recently i came across this review by Tridip Suhrud of a biography on Modi. Tridip is a scholar and translator based in Ahmedabad. His translation of "Harilal Gandhi: A Life by Chandulal Bhagubhai Dalal" has been an important work. I am enclosing two other essays by him in this post to pre-empt a barrier to some prejudiced missiles that will come immediately :). It will be worthwhile to think a little calmly on the issues that are being raised by Tridip. warmly jeebesh The Lost Banality Of Evil TRIDIP SUHRUD IT’S NEITHER A face nor a mask. It’s an eerie, disfigured, dismembered, disembodied image. It is not a person, nor a head that a headhunter would collect. It shows a fragment of a cityscape, half- ethnic kite festival where the kites appear as brand ambassadors. But, oddly, there is no sense of play or festivity. The image is not locatable, it can’t be grounded or given a body. It’s a kind of head that would address a populace, precisely because it’s not located in people, in locality or in himself. In that sense it’s eerie. Modi’s dismembered head (Narendra to his biographers) appears as the head of some ritualistic sect or cult. His eyes might appear to some advertiser as steely, but bereft of body they appear frozen. Semiotics of the cover of the book provides better psychoanalysis of the man than the contents of the book. The fable reverses itself. It’s not the myth of the headless warrior horseman. It’s the myth of the head without the body. In the myth of Modi, the body has disappeared; his own and the body political. It’s a body-less leader, chaste, celibate, hyper-masculine only in context of the State. An archetypical symbol of a demagogue, who is located nowhere but wishes to sway all. It’s a deeply Manichaean book. There is one source of good, one idea of good, the rest are evil; symbolised by opposition, his own party-men, the dissenters and the recalcitrant pseudo-secular English press. One wonders how a democratic leader can polarise the populace into such a binary of opposition, where he is the Self and the rest are the totality of others. No amount of formal propaganda can break the political unconscious of a story where the General (as his biographers call him) thinks that he exists, therefore we are. The logic is inevitable; if we differ we cease to exist. The Modi myth is the mother-goddess myth gone awry. Here is a man incapable of care and nurturance reincarnating himself in, and as, an act of violence. His biographers don’t realise that authoritarian personalities are both bad myth and bad politics. Modi’s biographers write history in a funny way. The fragment of life where Modi was a RSS pracharak to the time that Vajpayee sent a reluctant Modi to be the Chief Minister of Gujarat belongs to history and biography. History is history only pre-Godhra. Godhra is a conspiracy, the riots a rumour and the bad press merely gossip. In this, the quest for truth and justice, search for compassion, the need of reconciliation, have no place. They are utopian in the original sense of the term, because they don’t belong to this story. They have no location, and hence, legitimacy. As sociologist Shiv Visvanthan reminded us, Modi, after Sanjay Gandhi, is the most sinister myth of Indian politics. Both depoliticised politics in the name of the political. If evil ever pretended to be good in the guise of development, Sanjay and Modi are the siblings of modernity that we can do without. The trouble with a man like Modi is that he does not belong to history but only to the world of news, where he continually reinvents himself. Modi as news has to happen again and again. In fact, it’s because he is news that biography sounds dated. Modi makes better sense when he distributes his masks that we wear or on the hoardings of the Information Department of Government of Gujarat, hyphenated with information about CNG or a new gas find. As you consume the city you also consume Modi as a fragment of it. One must confess that Modi’s PRO and the information department do a better job than Kamath and his collaborator. One does not doubt that Modi is a presence but it’s a presence that needs a biographer of the scale of Eric Erickson, Alexander Misterlisch or Ashis Nandy. Because they would have been able to weave the relationship between the ordinariness of the man and the gigantism of evil. They alone could have explained the seductiveness of evil. Kamath and Randeri are too banal to understand the banality of evil. http://www.tehelka.com/story_main41.asp?filename=hub180409the_lost.asp ------------------------------- Re-editing' Gandhi's Collected Works TRIDIP SUHRUD (Economic and Political Weekly November 20, 2004 4967) Gandhiji had a unique capability of attracting men and women of great talent and commitment towards him and his cause. Maganlal Gandhi, Henry Polak, Herman Kallenbach, Imam Saheb Abdul Kadar Bavazir, Mahadev Desai, Pyarelal, Swami Anand, Vinoba, Kakasaheb Kalelkar, Kishorlal Mashruwala, Narhari Parikh, Miraben and many others like them were men and women of exceptional virtues. They were thinkers and servants of the people. Gandhiji was fortunate during his lifetime, and even after his assassination there were individuals and institutions ready to commit themselves to the preservation and propagation of his legacy. It was a similar impulse that guided the project to compile all of Gandhiji’s writings and make them available to readers. The project, which was conceptualised in February 1956, came to be known as the Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi (CWMG). The government of India decided to create an advisory board and vested all control and direction of the project in the board. Morarji Desai was the chairman of the board. At various points several individuals worked as members of the board. These included Kakasaheb Kalelkar, Devdas Gandhi, Pyarelal, Maganbhai Desai, G Ramachandran, Shriman Narian, Jivanji P Desai, P M Lad, R R Diwakar, Ramdhari Sinha ‘Dinkar’ and Shantilal Shah. From 1956 to 1959, Bhartan Kumarappa and Jairamdas Doulatram worked as the chief editor of the project. In February 1960, K Swaminathan – a man who was equally comfortable with the European literary and philosophical tradition, Sanskrit poetics and Tamil literature as well as the ashram of Ramana Maharshi – was appointed chief editor. He continued to work on the CWMG project till his eyesight began to fail him in his early nineties. A project that was conceived in 1956 was closed in 1994 with the publication of the 100th volume. Men such as U R Rao, R K Prabhu and C N Patel assisted Swaminathan. The task before the CWMG editorial team was not easy. Gandhiji’s writings were spread over three countries – South Africa, India and England. They were in government files, in offices of newspapers, with thousands of individuals who corresponded with him and in the diaries of his companions like Mahadev Desai. Gandhiji wrote mainly in three languages, English, Gujarati and Hindi. The CWMG team decided to bring out these volumes at least in these three languages. The work on the Gujarati version, called Gandhiji No Akshardeh, was entrusted to the Navajivan Trust, and the publications division of the ministry of information and broad casting, was responsible for the English and Hindi versions. Each document had to be verified and authenticated. Gandhiji’s associates, H S L Polak and Chhaganlal Gandhi were called in to verify and authenticate South African papers. The government, like other institutions, participated in the process of acquiring new material. The government, for example, acquired a substantial part of the Gandhiji-Herman Kallenbach correspondence at an auction in South Africa in the early 1990s. They tell a story of an abiding friendship. The editors and the advisory board decided on three guiding principles: (a) the aim of the series would be to reproduce Gandhiji’s actual words, (b) reports of his speeches, interviews and conversation in indirect speech would be included when they were proved to be authentic beyond doubt, and (c) later research was likely to lead to the discovery of more material – the Gandhi-Kallenbach correspondence – and all such new material would be published as supplementary volumes. Of the 100 volumes, 1-90 reproduced Gandhiji’s writings, speeches, letters, interviews, and notes in chronological order; volumes 91- 97 were the so-called supplementary volumes which dealt with material that had become available later, while volumes 98-100 contained index of subjects, index of persons and a volume containing prefaces to the set. The CWMG has long since come to be recognised as one of the finest examples of editorial and translation work undertaken anywhere in the world. At least two generations of Gandhi scholars have expressed their deep indebtedness to these self-effacing men. Except for a fine biographical sketch by Ramachandra Guha it is very difficult to find any recent assessment of K Swaminathan, of C N Patel, there is nothing of consequence to be found in English. But the CWMG endured. Until recently, that is. In 1998, the publications dvision decided to ‘re-edit’ the CWMG. The exercise was aimed at bringing uniformity, strict chronology and authenticity. Uniformity meant that all volumes ought to be of the same size – of 500 pages each! Chronology required that all the material of the supplementary volumes be incorporated at its appropriate chronological order. The publisher’s note in the revised edition of 2001 has this to say about authenticity: "The objective of the series is to reproduce Gandhiji’s actual words as far as possible; reports of his speeches, interviews, conversations which did not seem to be authentic have been avoided, as also reports of his statements in indirect form" (emphasis added). The exercise thus involved a process of re-authentication and therefore subsequent deletion of material ‘which did not seem authentic’. It also involved a process of realigning the material from supplementary volumes. The exercise, which began in 1998, resulted in the publication of a revised edition of 100 volumes of CWMG, in English and Hindi. A CD-ROM version was also published. The entire exercise is deeply flawed. We are not informed who the chief editor of this set is, the editorial team and advisory board remains a mystery. What, if any, were the measures adopted to ascertain the authenticity of material that has been omitted? We are not even given a listing of the material that has been thus found inauthentic and deleted. ‘Re-editing’ Gandhi’s Collected Works The exercise to ‘re-edit’ the Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi is non-transparent and flawed, and displays an inefficiency and callousness that makes the revised publication incapable of being a standard reference. The new edition should be scrapped, and the original collected works reinstated as the only and most authentic version of the writings and utterances of Gandhi. Economic and Political Weekly November 20, 2004 4968 A group of individuals and independent scholars in Gujarat have been examining the revised print edition and the CD-ROM. Our exercise is yet ongoing, but the findings are deeply disturbing. There are about 500 entries missing from the CD-ROM version, but they must not all be inauthentic. Of these, about 215 entries have been subsequently added to the revised print edition. There are about 300 entries missing from the print edition. Thus, we now have three versions of the CWMG: the original, the revised edition of 2001 in print, and the CD-ROM version. The individual prefaces of the original set became irrelevant in the process of restructuring the data. The revised edition as well as the CD have omitted all the prefaces and even the independent volume of prefaces has been excluded in the revised edition. In the original set, each volume contained a list of sources and acknowledgements specific to that particular volume. The new editors failed to even identify the sources for each volume. Instead, they have taken the list of sources of the original set, combined them and printed as one consolidated list that occupies 42 pages in each volume. Thus, 4200 pages of data that is largely meaningless to a reader have been added. The indices have been similarly mauled. The original had 4,000 main entries and 9,000 subentries for the volumes of indices. In the revised edition, a significantly large number of sub-entries are missing thus making ‘action’ a verb and robbing it of all its philosophical significance. Vinoba Bhave and Bhave, Vinoba are different individuals for the editors. Many key entries have been reduced in size. The work is incapable of becoming a standard reference. Let us take the supplementary volumes. One of the main aims of the exercise was to bring chronological uniformity to the set. It therefore required subsequently acquired material to be incorporated as per date and year. The table gives a summary of missing entries from volumes 91-97, the supplementary volumes of the original CWMG. The table demonstrates that even the exercise of rescheduling has been done with an ineptitude, inefficiency and callousness that is shocking. Are we to assume that these letters – many of which are housed in the national archives, the Nehru Memorial Museum and Library and the collection of the CWMG itself – are now found to be inauthentic? We do not know if the entries have been re-edited in Table: List of Missing Items Number Vol No Vol No Sr No As (old) (revised) Per Old Vols Date Description 1 97 10 2 1909 Letter to Chhaganlal Gandhi 2 97 26 addenda 3 March 17, 1922 Letter to Mazharul Haq 3 97 26 45 March 18, 1922 Letter to Prabhudas Gandhi 4 97 26 46 April 2, 1923 Letter to Kashi Gandhi 5 97 26 47 April 8, 1923 Letter to Narandas Gandhi 6 97 56 209 August, 28, 1932 Letter to Nirmala Gandhi 7 97 80 330 April 22, 1941 Letter to Prabhudas Gandhi 8 97 80 331 May 23, 1941 Letter to Prabhudas Gandhi 9 91 21 addenda 14 November 18, 1920 Letter to Narhari D Parikh 10 91 21 addenda 15 November 18, 1920 Letter to Anasuyaben Sarabhai 11 91 22 addenda 16 February 26, 1921 Letter to Anasuyaben Sarabhai 12 91 27 addenda 21 April 8, 1924 Letter to Manilal Doctor 13 91 30 addenda 23 February 21, 1925 Letter to Rameshwardas Birla 14 91 32 addenda 25 August 14, 1925 Letter to G D Birla 15 91 36 addenda 29 After October 10, 1926 A Talk 16 91 37 addenda 30 1926 Letter to Haribhau Upadhyaya 17 91 38 addenda 31 January 24, 1927 Letter to Mridula Sarabhai 18 91 42 addenda 38 Before August 1, 1928 A Letter 19 91 6 50 On or after February 25, Letter to Chhaganlal Gandhi 1907 20 91 6 51 February 10, 1907 Letter to Chhaganlal Gandhi 21 91 6 52 February 20, 1907 Letter to P S to Governor, Transvaal 22 91 6 53 March 1, 1907 Letter to Chhaganlal Gandhi 23 91 19 230 March 23, 1920 Telegram to Mathurdas Trikumji 24 91 23 269 Before June 30, 1921 Letter to Kunvarji Anandaji Kapadia 25 91 26 306 March 6, 1922 Letter to S A Brelvi 26 91 26 308 After March 21, 1922 Letter to Baba Lakshmandas 27 91 26 309 Before August 24, 1923 A Note 28 91 27 310 February 28, 1924 Message to Romain Rolland 29 91 27 311 March 4, 1924 Letter to C Vijayaraghavachariar 30 91 27 312 March 12, 1924 Telegram to Jawaharlal Nehru 31 91 27 313 On or after March 13, 1924 Letter to Ramdas Gandhi 32 91 27 314 March 17, 1924 Letter to Ramdas Gandhi 33 91 27 315 March 24, 1924 Letter to Mahadev Desai 34 91 27 316 March 25, 1924 Letter to Radha Gandhi 35 91 38 554 January 23, 1927 Letter to Ramkrishna Chandiwala 36 91 38 555 January 24, 1927 Letter to Anasuyaben Sarabhai 37 91 38 556 January 31, 1927 Letter to Anasuyaben Sarabhai 38 91 38 557 February 3, 1927 Letter to Motiram Shaukiram Adwani 39 91 38 558 February 6, 1927 Letter to Motilal Roy 40 91 38 559 February 7, 1927 Message to International Congress against imperialism 41 91 40 614 After November 25, 1927 Letter to Anasuyaben Sarabhai 42 93 74 332 October 10, 1938 Letter to Mathurdas Trikumji 43 93 74 333 October 13, 1938 Letter to Pyarelal 44 93 74 374 January 21, 1939 Letter to Mathurdas Trikumji 45 95 26 43 March 5, 1922 Letter to the Editor, The Survey, New York 46 95 26 44 December 1922 A Letter (Presumably to Madan Mohan Malaviya) 47 95 27 45 March 31, 1924 A Silence Day Note 48 95 27 46 Before April 3, 1924 Letter to Anasuyaben Sarabhai 49 95 32 53 August 21, 1925 Letter to C Ramalinga Reddy 50 95 32 54 On or before August 31, Letter to Haribhau Upadhyaya 1925 51 95 32 55 After September 23, 1925 Fragment of a letter 52 95 35 63 May 12, 1926 Letter to Amy Jacques Garvey 53 95 38 70 Before January 10, 1927 Letter to Vasumati Pandit 54 95 38 71 January 10, 1927 Letter to Vasumati Pandit 55 95 38 72 After February 2, 1927 Letter to Vasumati Pandit 56 95 38 73 After February 2, 1927 Letter to Vasumati Pandit 57 95 43 90 December 18, 1928 Letter to Benarsidas Chaturvedi 58 95 45 94 March 23, 1929 Letter to Prabhavati 59 95 80 154 May 14, 1941 Letter to Venkataswami Naidu 60 95 84 163 August 27, 1944 Telegram to M A Jinnah 61 96 4 1 July 3, 1905 Letter to Millie Graham Polak 62 96 9 2 September 19, 1908 Letter to Herman Kallenbach 63 96 9 3 February 9, 1909 Letter to Herman Kallenbach 64 96 9 4 April 5, 1909 Letter to Herman Kallenbach 65 96 9 5 June 19, 1909 Draft Will and Testament 66 96 9 6 June 21, 1909 Letter to Herman Kallenbach 67 96 9 7 June 22, 1909 Letter to Herman Kallenbach 68 96 9 8 June 23, 1909 Letter to Herman Kallenbach 69 96 9 9 July 3, 1909 A Letter (Contd) Economic and Political Weekly November 20, 2004 4969 70 96 9 10 July 3, 1909 Letter to Herman Kallenbach 71 96 9 11 July 7, 1909 Letter to Herman Kallenbach 72 96 9 12 July 17, 1909 Letter to Herman Kallenbach 73 96 9 13 July 21, 1909 Letter to Herman Kallenbach 74 96 9 14 July 30, 1909 Letter to Herman Kallenbach 75 96 10 15 August 7, 1909 Letter to Herman Kallenbach 76 96 10 16 August 12, 1909 Letter to Herman Kallenbach 77 96 10 17 August 20, 1909 Letter to Herman Kallenbach 78 96 10 18 August 28, 1909 Letter to Herman Kallenbach 79 96 10 19 August 30, 1909 Letter to Herman Kallenbach 80 96 10 20 September 10, 1909 Letter to Herman Kallenbach 81 96 10 21 September 17, 1909 Letter to Herman Kallenbach 82 96 10 22 September 24, 1909 Letter to Herman Kallenbach 83 97 10 23 October 1, 1909 Letter to Herman Kallenbach 84 97 10 24 October 27, 1909 Letter to Herman Kallenbach 85 97 10 25 November 14, 1909 Letter to Millie Graham Polak 86 97 10 26 November 15, 1909 Letter to H S L Polak 87 97 22 286 January 22, 1921 Letter to H S L Polak 88 97 23 287 April 10, 1921 Letter to Herman Kallenbach 89 97 24 290 September 29, 1921 Letter to Herman Kallenbach 90 97 72 311 December 28, 1937 Telegram to Herman Kallenbach 91 97 74 319 January 20, 1939 Letter to Herman Kallenbach 92 97 75 320 February 5, 1939 Letter to H S L Polak 93 97 75 321 March 2, 1939 Telegram to Amrit Kaur 94 97 75 322 March 8, 1939 Letter to Herman Kallenbach 95 97 75 323 March/April 1939 Notes to Herman Kallenbach 96 97 75 324 March/ April 1939 Note to Herman Kallenbach 97 97 81 327 August 30, 1941 Letter to H S L Polak the sense of providing a new ‘improved’ translation, improving Gandhiji’s writings. One chance evidence shows that such an exercise might have been attempted. Following are two excerpts of a letter to G D Birla, which was written in Hindi, a comparison of the two shows that linguistic changes might have also been attempted. Bhaishri Ghanshyamdasji, God has given me mentors. I consider you as one of them. Many of my children, many sisters and elderly people such as you and Jamnalalji want to see in me perfection. Knowing this how could I be distressed by your letter. I want you always thus to caution me. You have three complaints: (i) that I absolve the Swaraj Party of the charge of corruption; (ii) that I gave a certificate to Suhrawardy; and (iii) that I have been trying to make Sarojini Devi the president. In the first place, it is a man’s duty to hold fast to truth as he sees it after due striving, even if it should appear a mistake to the world. He cannot become fearless otherwise. I desire nothing so much as moksha. But I would shun even moksha if it went against truth and non-violence (CWMG, Vol 91, pp 525-26). Dear Shri Ghanshyamdas, God has provided me with consciencekeepers. You, I think, are one of them. Some of my own children, some ladies and a few grown-ups like Jamnalalji and yourself want to make me a perfect man. Regarding you thus, how could I be offended by your letter? In fact, I want you always to caution me in this manner. You complain against three things: One, my absolving the Swaraj Party of the charge of corruption; two, my giving a testimonial to Suhrawardy; and, three, my trying to get Sarojini Devi elected as [Congress] president. In the first place, it is one’s duty to say only that which, after a painstaking inquiry, one has come to regard as the truth, even if the world considers it to be an error. In no other way can one become fearless. I cannot consider anything dearer to me than moksha. Yet even that moksha I would renounce if it were to conflict with truth and non-violence (CWMG, E book, Vol 29, p 29). If this is any indication, it proves that the exercise has been not just of re-arranging and deleting but also of re-editing the textual matter. Such callousness to a work of archival nature cannot be tolerated by any individual committed to academic and intellectual integrity. It is our demand that the revised edition, including the CD-ROM, be recalled and scrapped, the original CWMG be reinstated as the only and the most authentic version of the writings and utterances of Gandhiji. The government must take statutory steps to ensure that no attempt to re-edit or recast the CWMG is made even in future. Table: List of Missing Items (Contd) Number Vol No Vol No Sr No As (old) (revised) Per Old Vols Date Description -------------------------------- In Defeat, Let Us Reclaim Our Selves TRIDIP SUHRUD A FEW WEEKS AGO, I was asked to explain my preference for Gujarat. The first of the three responses I gave was the resonance of the Gujarati language. As I tried to articulate this, I recognised that the response, though honest, was part romance, part longing. Because, for the past few years, my relationship with the Gujarati language, Gujarati literature and Gujarati society has been tenuous and marked by longing. It was not always so. My emotional and intellectual core was built in and through Gujarati. It was the language of home and also of school and college. Gijubhai Badheka, Kakasaheb Kalelkar and Jhaverchand Meghani filled my childhood. Govardhanram Tripathi’s Sarasvatichandra was my sole companion during the hot, dusty afternoons of my adolescence. And there was KM Munshi too. I read his racy prose breathlessly. His trilogy excited the imagination, delighted the heart. But, then as now, I remained partial to the world of love, valour and sacrifice that Meghani created. His characters loved deeply, waited till the end of time and fought righteous battles to the death. Swami Anand, Kakasaheb, Prabhudas Gandhi, KG Mashruwala and Ramanlal V. Desai opened for me the world of Gandhi. Poet Sundaram brought to us the sublime beauty of Sri Aurobindo and the Mother of Pondicherry through the journal Dakshina. Umashankar Joshi was our poet laureate. Nagindas Parekh made not only Tagore and Bankim available in Gujarati, but also the Bible, which sounds more true to me in Gujarati even today. Later, under the watchful eye of Achyut Yagnik and Ashis Nandy, I entered the 19th-century world of Narmad, Karsandas Mulji and Manibhai Nabhubhai more academically but without the joy of doing so diminished in any way. My understanding of Gujarati society as also its critique was framed by Gujarati writing. I understood the nature of intense spiritual longing through the painful conversion to Christianity by my favourite Gujarati poet Manishankar Bhatt, “Kant”. As Bapu drew me more and more towards him, I began to recognise the liminal existence that he had in Gujarat’s society and economy. Gandhi’s denial of private property and personal family as the sole heir to legacy went contrary to the ethos of Gujarati mercantile capitalism. His emphasis on a casteless existence perturbed the Gujarati middle class then as it does now. His conviction that one could be a good Sanatani Hindu only when one is simultaneously a good Christian, a devout Muslim and a faithful Parsi challenged our narrow, sectarian way of being religious. Caste and communal conflict was a constant reminder that Gujarat was capable of turning against itself in a frenzied celebration of violence with unnerving regularity. Through all this, my world of emotions and ideas continued to grow, enriched by a new aesthetic sensibility and academic training. The modernism that we had created in art and literature had once recognised and even celebrated the homo-eroticism of Bhupen Khakhar’s paintings and the sexual economy of his stories and plays. But, as we embraced the modern political economy of production and consumption, of trans-national linkages, the modernism of a Bhupen, a Ghulam Sheikh or a Suresh Joshi slipped away from us. The Gujarati language around me had begun to alter. The most definitive sign of this came during the debates around the dam on the Narmada. For the first time after the Mahagujarat movement, which led to the creation of the Gujarat state, Gujarati society and polity attained near unanimity on the Narmada issue. This unanimity had a new tone. All those who opposed the dam, raised the issue of the rehabilitation of the displaced or brought forth environmental audits were termed anti-Gujarat. We had found our “developmental other”. This led to the erasure of dialogue on either side. Gujarat, with its long and generous tradition of voluntary work rooted in self-volition, grew weary of NGOs. With this, we forgot the criminal tribes that Ravishankar Maharaj had hoped to free. We also forgot the tribals, called Raniparaj by Gandhi and Veddchi’s grand old man, Jugatram Dave. The selfless service rendered to the Dalits by Thakkar Bapa and Parikshitlal Majumdar receded to the margins of our collective memory. We forgot the legitimacy of autonomous acts, acts which allow one to be moral. Did we understand the autonomy of Anasuya Sarabhai who fought for the mill-hands of Ahmedabad against her brother Ambalal? Do we understand the rectitude of SEWA and Ela Bhatt? THIS IDEA of forces ranged against us, the people of Gujarat, came to be deeply etched in our minds after the violence of 2002. We had once again turned against ourselves in a macabre dance of violence. In the demonology we created, we were either victims or spectators. As spectators, we could merely watch without bearing witness. Had we any memory of Mahadev Desai, we would have understood the difference between a spectator and a witness — Mahadev showed us the way to be witnesses. A witness is a bearer of Truth. After 2002, the Gujarati language has not been the same — it had no desire to hear pleas for compassion, pity, justice, love, remorse and reconciliation. A language that could not hear of compassion and pity, of penance that cleanses and purifies, cannot be the language of Gandhi. It was not a language of caring and nurturance but of machismo. We wished to purge all that we saw as effeminate in us through our newfound hyper-masculinity. But in so doing, we also purged our language and our cultural selves of all that was feminine; we shut doors on other cultural and psychological possibilities that the recognition of pain and suffering, of nurturance and healing, could have given us. We foreclosed the possibility that some critics might have been moved by genuine love for Gujarat and the desire to see it recover aspects of its linguistic memory and cultural possibility. At a moment when a significantly large part of Gujarat celebrates a stupendous victory for Narendra Modi and “Gujarati asmita”, I want to raise a small, still voice sustaining and weaving memory towards an alternative future. A voice that urges us to recognise the legitimacy of autonomous action, reminds us of the possibilities that we have closed for now. It is a plea to restore to our language categories of compassion, pain, love and nurturance. It is a plea for the feminine in us that is weighed under our masculine asmita. From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Tue May 5 15:55:03 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 03:25:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] The Lost Banality Of Evil In-Reply-To: <4C47519D-49C5-4A20-AC82-97FC267CC0E3@sarai.net> Message-ID: <74165.28003.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Jeebesh   Thank you for sharing these 3 pieces by Tridip Suhrud.(TS)   Seeking to create my own pre-emptive barrier against those who pre-judge and misinterpret one's attitudes, I totally subscribe to the words of TS:   """"" If evil ever pretended to be good in the guise of  development, Sanjay and Modi are the siblings of modernity that we can  do without. """"""   But I wish analyses were as simply dealt with by such compartmentalising of personalities into "evil".   That is the reason why I find too starkly prejudicial TS's statement about Modi """" Here is a man incapable of care and nurturance reincarnating himself in, and as, an  act of violence.""""   No one is incapable of 'care and nurturance'. No one is evil incarnate. Such monsterisation is as ill-advised as deification. It serves as an easy answer but is far from any completeness of understanding of a person.   Such a statement is also disrespectful and dismissive about Gujarat and it's people who TS identifies so closely with as is evident in the essay  "In Defeat, Let Us Reclaim Our Selves" (Essay 2)   A question I have (asked on this List too) "What does sending Modi back into office say about the people of Gujarat? Why did they do it?". I believe the answer to that question of importance. No one cares to address that. I do not have the intelligence/knowledge to do it. Damning Modi is easily done but that does not answer the question.   This answer is sought by TS too when he says:    """"  One wonders how a democratic leader can polarise the populace into such a binary of opposition, where he is the Self and the rest are the totality of others."""""""   This 'Self' of Modi and the 'others' are laid out by TS in:    """"" There  is one source of good, one idea of good, the rest are evil; symbolised by opposition, his own party-men, the dissenters and the recalcitrant pseudo-secular English press."   TS (with his love for Gujarat) could have attempted an answer, but he doesn't, neither in the 'review' nor in the "Essay 2". He wants others to explain the "seductiveness of evil". That is Modi's evil.   "In Defeat, Let Us Reclaim Our Selves" essay by TS is a great read. A wistful, in love with Gujarat, hurting TS.   TS celebrates the glories of Gujarat (pre Narmada Dam issue) that are so dear to him and rues what has become of Gujarat post 2002 riots. Very impassioned and  ends with the plea:    """"" It is a plea to restore to our language categories of compassion, pain, love and nurturance.""""""   TS thus creates another set of the "Self" (his own humanistic sensitivities) and "others" (who have lent themselves to allowing Gujarat to become what it has, the people of Gujarat).   There is no answer to why the people of Gujarat have allowed this to happen, why they voted Modi back into power. Modi is easily damned but that provides no answer.   Kshmendra   PS. A great and very apt line by TS   """ Modi ........does not belong to history but only to the world of news"   A hundred years from today will anyone other than Gandhi (MK) belong to history? I see no one who will be anything more than italicised footnotes in very small print.   --- On Tue, 5/5/09, Jeebesh wrote: From: Jeebesh Subject: [Reader-list] The Lost Banality Of Evil To: "Sarai Reader-list" Date: Tuesday, May 5, 2009, 2:03 PM dear All, Recently i came across this review by Tridip Suhrud of a biography on Modi. Tridip is a scholar and translator based in Ahmedabad. His translation of "Harilal Gandhi: A Life by Chandulal Bhagubhai Dalal" has been an important work. I am enclosing two other essays by him in this post to pre-empt a barrier to some prejudiced missiles that will come immediately :). It will be worthwhile to think a little calmly on the issues that are being raised by Tridip. warmly jeebesh The Lost Banality Of Evil TRIDIP SUHRUD IT’S NEITHER A face nor a mask. It’s an eerie, disfigured, dismembered, disembodied image. It is not a person, nor a head that a headhunter would collect. It shows a fragment of a cityscape, half- ethnic kite festival where the kites appear as brand ambassadors. But, oddly, there is no sense of play or festivity. The image is not locatable, it can’t be grounded or given a body. It’s a kind of head that would address a populace, precisely because it’s not located in people, in locality or in himself. In that sense it’s eerie. Modi’s dismembered head (Narendra to his biographers) appears as the head of some ritualistic sect or cult. His eyes might appear to some advertiser as steely, but bereft of body they appear frozen. Semiotics of the cover of the book provides better psychoanalysis of the man than the contents of the book. The fable reverses itself. It’s not the myth of the headless warrior horseman. It’s the myth of the head without the body. In the myth of Modi, the body has disappeared; his own and the body political. It’s a body-less leader, chaste, celibate, hyper-masculine only in context of the State. An archetypical symbol of a demagogue, who is located nowhere but wishes to sway all. It’s a deeply Manichaean book. There is one source of good, one idea of good, the rest are evil; symbolised by opposition, his own party-men, the dissenters and the recalcitrant pseudo-secular English press. One wonders how a democratic leader can polarise the populace into such a binary of opposition, where he is the Self and the rest are the totality of others. No amount of formal propaganda can break the political unconscious of a story where the General (as his biographers call him) thinks that he exists, therefore we are. The logic is inevitable; if we differ we cease to exist. The Modi myth is the mother-goddess myth gone awry. Here is a man incapable of care and nurturance reincarnating himself in, and as, an act of violence. His biographers don’t realise that authoritarian personalities are both bad myth and bad politics. Modi’s biographers write history in a funny way. The fragment of life where Modi was a RSS pracharak to the time that Vajpayee sent a reluctant Modi to be the Chief Minister of Gujarat belongs to history and biography. History is history only pre-Godhra. Godhra is a conspiracy, the riots a rumour and the bad press merely gossip. In this, the quest for truth and justice, search for compassion, the need of reconciliation, have no place. They are utopian in the original sense of the term, because they don’t belong to this story. They have no location, and hence, legitimacy. As sociologist Shiv Visvanthan reminded us, Modi, after Sanjay Gandhi, is the most sinister myth of Indian politics. Both depoliticised politics in the name of the political. If evil ever pretended to be good in the guise of development, Sanjay and Modi are the siblings of modernity that we can do without. The trouble with a man like Modi is that he does not belong to history but only to the world of news, where he continually reinvents himself. Modi as news has to happen again and again. In fact, it’s because he is news that biography sounds dated. Modi makes better sense when he distributes his masks that we wear or on the hoardings of the Information Department of Government of Gujarat, hyphenated with information about CNG or a new gas find. As you consume the city you also consume Modi as a fragment of it. One must confess that Modi’s PRO and the information department do a better job than Kamath and his collaborator. One does not doubt that Modi is a presence but it’s a presence that needs a biographer of the scale of Eric Erickson, Alexander Misterlisch or Ashis Nandy. Because they would have been able to weave the relationship between the ordinariness of the man and the gigantism of evil. They alone could have explained the seductiveness of evil. Kamath and Randeri are too banal to understand the banality of evil. http://www.tehelka.com/story_main41.asp?filename=hub180409the_lost.asp ------------------------------- Re-editing' Gandhi's Collected Works TRIDIP SUHRUD (Economic and Political Weekly November 20, 2004 4967) Gandhiji had a unique capability of attracting men and women of great talent and commitment towards him and his cause. Maganlal Gandhi, Henry Polak, Herman Kallenbach, Imam Saheb Abdul Kadar Bavazir, Mahadev Desai, Pyarelal, Swami Anand, Vinoba, Kakasaheb Kalelkar, Kishorlal Mashruwala, Narhari Parikh, Miraben and many others like them were men and women of exceptional virtues. They were thinkers and servants of the people. Gandhiji was fortunate during his lifetime, and even after his assassination there were individuals and institutions ready to commit themselves to the preservation and propagation of his legacy. It was a similar impulse that guided the project to compile all of Gandhiji’s writings and make them available to readers. The project, which was conceptualised in February 1956, came to be known as the Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi (CWMG). The government of India decided to create an advisory board and vested all control and direction of the project in the board. Morarji Desai was the chairman of the board. At various points several individuals worked as members of the board. These included Kakasaheb Kalelkar, Devdas Gandhi, Pyarelal, Maganbhai Desai, G Ramachandran, Shriman Narian, Jivanji P Desai, P M Lad, R R Diwakar, Ramdhari Sinha ‘Dinkar’ and Shantilal Shah. From 1956 to 1959, Bhartan Kumarappa and Jairamdas Doulatram worked as the chief editor of the project. In February 1960, K Swaminathan – a man who was equally comfortable with the European literary and philosophical tradition, Sanskrit poetics and Tamil literature as well as the ashram of Ramana Maharshi – was appointed chief editor. He continued to work on the CWMG project till his eyesight began to fail him in his early nineties. A project that was conceived in 1956 was closed in 1994 with the publication of the 100th volume. Men such as U R Rao, R K Prabhu and C N Patel assisted Swaminathan. The task before the CWMG editorial team was not easy. Gandhiji’s writings were spread over three countries – South Africa, India and England. They were in government files, in offices of newspapers, with thousands of individuals who corresponded with him and in the diaries of his companions like Mahadev Desai. Gandhiji wrote mainly in three languages, English, Gujarati and Hindi. The CWMG team decided to bring out these volumes at least in these three languages. The work on the Gujarati version, called Gandhiji No Akshardeh, was entrusted to the Navajivan Trust, and the publications division of the ministry of information and broad casting, was responsible for the English and Hindi versions. Each document had to be verified and authenticated. Gandhiji’s associates, H S L Polak and Chhaganlal Gandhi were called in to verify and authenticate South African papers. The government, like other institutions, participated in the process of acquiring new material. The government, for example, acquired a substantial part of the Gandhiji-Herman Kallenbach correspondence at an auction in South Africa in the early 1990s. They tell a story of an abiding friendship. The editors and the advisory board decided on three guiding principles: (a) the aim of the series would be to reproduce Gandhiji’s actual words, (b) reports of his speeches, interviews and conversation in indirect speech would be included when they were proved to be authentic beyond doubt, and (c) later research was likely to lead to the discovery of more material – the Gandhi-Kallenbach correspondence – and all such new material would be published as supplementary volumes. Of the 100 volumes, 1-90 reproduced Gandhiji’s writings, speeches, letters, interviews, and notes in chronological order; volumes 91- 97 were the so-called supplementary volumes which dealt with material that had become available later, while volumes 98-100 contained index of subjects, index of persons and a volume containing prefaces to the set. The CWMG has long since come to be recognised as one of the finest examples of editorial and translation work undertaken anywhere in the world. At least two generations of Gandhi scholars have expressed their deep indebtedness to these self-effacing men. Except for a fine biographical sketch by Ramachandra Guha it is very difficult to find any recent assessment of K Swaminathan, of C N Patel, there is nothing of consequence to be found in English. But the CWMG endured. Until recently, that is. In 1998, the publications dvision decided to ‘re-edit’ the CWMG. The exercise was aimed at bringing uniformity, strict chronology and authenticity. Uniformity meant that all volumes ought to be of the same size – of 500 pages each! Chronology required that all the material of the supplementary volumes be incorporated at its appropriate chronological order. The publisher’s note in the revised edition of 2001 has this to say about authenticity: "The objective of the series is to reproduce Gandhiji’s actual words as far as possible; reports of his speeches, interviews, conversations which did not seem to be authentic have been avoided, as also reports of his statements in indirect form" (emphasis added). The exercise thus involved a process of re-authentication and therefore subsequent deletion of material ‘which did not seem authentic’. It also involved a process of realigning the material from supplementary volumes. The exercise, which began in 1998, resulted in the publication of a revised edition of 100 volumes of CWMG, in English and Hindi. A CD-ROM version was also published. The entire exercise is deeply flawed. We are not informed who the chief editor of this set is, the editorial team and advisory board remains a mystery. What, if any, were the measures adopted to ascertain the authenticity of material that has been omitted? We are not even given a listing of the material that has been thus found inauthentic and deleted. ‘Re-editing’ Gandhi’s Collected Works The exercise to ‘re-edit’ the Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi is non-transparent and flawed, and displays an inefficiency and callousness that makes the revised publication incapable of being a standard reference. The new edition should be scrapped, and the original collected works reinstated as the only and most authentic version of the writings and utterances of Gandhi. Economic and Political Weekly November 20, 2004 4968 A group of individuals and independent scholars in Gujarat have been examining the revised print edition and the CD-ROM. Our exercise is yet ongoing, but the findings are deeply disturbing. There are about 500 entries missing from the CD-ROM version, but they must not all be inauthentic. Of these, about 215 entries have been subsequently added to the revised print edition. There are about 300 entries missing from the print edition. Thus, we now have three versions of the CWMG: the original, the revised edition of 2001 in print, and the CD-ROM version. The individual prefaces of the original set became irrelevant in the process of restructuring the data. The revised edition as well as the CD have omitted all the prefaces and even the independent volume of prefaces has been excluded in the revised edition. In the original set, each volume contained a list of sources and acknowledgements specific to that particular volume. The new editors failed to even identify the sources for each volume. Instead, they have taken the list of sources of the original set, combined them and printed as one consolidated list that occupies 42 pages in each volume. Thus, 4200 pages of data that is largely meaningless to a reader have been added. The indices have been similarly mauled. The original had 4,000 main entries and 9,000 subentries for the volumes of indices. In the revised edition, a significantly large number of sub-entries are missing thus making ‘action’ a verb and robbing it of all its philosophical significance. Vinoba Bhave and Bhave, Vinoba are different individuals for the editors. Many key entries have been reduced in size. The work is incapable of becoming a standard reference. Let us take the supplementary volumes. One of the main aims of the exercise was to bring chronological uniformity to the set. It therefore required subsequently acquired material to be incorporated as per date and year. The table gives a summary of missing entries from volumes 91-97, the supplementary volumes of the original CWMG. The table demonstrates that even the exercise of rescheduling has been done with an ineptitude, inefficiency and callousness that is shocking. Are we to assume that these letters – many of which are housed in the national archives, the Nehru Memorial Museum and Library and the collection of the CWMG itself – are now found to be inauthentic? We do not know if the entries have been re-edited in Table: List of Missing Items Number Vol No Vol No Sr No As (old) (revised) Per Old Vols Date Description 1 97 10 2 1909 Letter to Chhaganlal Gandhi 2 97 26 addenda 3 March 17, 1922 Letter to Mazharul Haq 3 97 26 45 March 18, 1922 Letter to Prabhudas Gandhi 4 97 26 46 April 2, 1923 Letter to Kashi Gandhi 5 97 26 47 April 8, 1923 Letter to Narandas Gandhi 6 97 56 209 August, 28, 1932 Letter to Nirmala Gandhi 7 97 80 330 April 22, 1941 Letter to Prabhudas Gandhi 8 97 80 331 May 23, 1941 Letter to Prabhudas Gandhi 9 91 21 addenda 14 November 18, 1920 Letter to Narhari D Parikh 10 91 21 addenda 15 November 18, 1920 Letter to Anasuyaben Sarabhai 11 91 22 addenda 16 February 26, 1921 Letter to Anasuyaben Sarabhai 12 91 27 addenda 21 April 8, 1924 Letter to Manilal Doctor 13 91 30 addenda 23 February 21, 1925 Letter to Rameshwardas Birla 14 91 32 addenda 25 August 14, 1925 Letter to G D Birla 15 91 36 addenda 29 After October 10, 1926 A Talk 16 91 37 addenda 30 1926 Letter to Haribhau Upadhyaya 17 91 38 addenda 31 January 24, 1927 Letter to Mridula Sarabhai 18 91 42 addenda 38 Before August 1, 1928 A Letter 19 91 6 50 On or after February 25, Letter to Chhaganlal Gandhi 1907 20 91 6 51 February 10, 1907 Letter to Chhaganlal Gandhi 21 91 6 52 February 20, 1907 Letter to P S to Governor, Transvaal 22 91 6 53 March 1, 1907 Letter to Chhaganlal Gandhi 23 91 19 230 March 23, 1920 Telegram to Mathurdas Trikumji 24 91 23 269 Before June 30, 1921 Letter to Kunvarji Anandaji Kapadia 25 91 26 306 March 6, 1922 Letter to S A Brelvi 26 91 26 308 After March 21, 1922 Letter to Baba Lakshmandas 27 91 26 309 Before August 24, 1923 A Note 28 91 27 310 February 28, 1924 Message to Romain Rolland 29 91 27 311 March 4, 1924 Letter to C Vijayaraghavachariar 30 91 27 312 March 12, 1924 Telegram to Jawaharlal Nehru 31 91 27 313 On or after March 13, 1924 Letter to Ramdas Gandhi 32 91 27 314 March 17, 1924 Letter to Ramdas Gandhi 33 91 27 315 March 24, 1924 Letter to Mahadev Desai 34 91 27 316 March 25, 1924 Letter to Radha Gandhi 35 91 38 554 January 23, 1927 Letter to Ramkrishna Chandiwala 36 91 38 555 January 24, 1927 Letter to Anasuyaben Sarabhai 37 91 38 556 January 31, 1927 Letter to Anasuyaben Sarabhai 38 91 38 557 February 3, 1927 Letter to Motiram Shaukiram Adwani 39 91 38 558 February 6, 1927 Letter to Motilal Roy 40 91 38 559 February 7, 1927 Message to International Congress against imperialism 41 91 40 614 After November 25, 1927 Letter to Anasuyaben Sarabhai 42 93 74 332 October 10, 1938 Letter to Mathurdas Trikumji 43 93 74 333 October 13, 1938 Letter to Pyarelal 44 93 74 374 January 21, 1939 Letter to Mathurdas Trikumji 45 95 26 43 March 5, 1922 Letter to the Editor, The Survey, New York 46 95 26 44 December 1922 A Letter (Presumably to Madan Mohan Malaviya) 47 95 27 45 March 31, 1924 A Silence Day Note 48 95 27 46 Before April 3, 1924 Letter to Anasuyaben Sarabhai 49 95 32 53 August 21, 1925 Letter to C Ramalinga Reddy 50 95 32 54 On or before August 31, Letter to Haribhau Upadhyaya 1925 51 95 32 55 After September 23, 1925 Fragment of a letter 52 95 35 63 May 12, 1926 Letter to Amy Jacques Garvey 53 95 38 70 Before January 10, 1927 Letter to Vasumati Pandit 54 95 38 71 January 10, 1927 Letter to Vasumati Pandit 55 95 38 72 After February 2, 1927 Letter to Vasumati Pandit 56 95 38 73 After February 2, 1927 Letter to Vasumati Pandit 57 95 43 90 December 18, 1928 Letter to Benarsidas Chaturvedi 58 95 45 94 March 23, 1929 Letter to Prabhavati 59 95 80 154 May 14, 1941 Letter to Venkataswami Naidu 60 95 84 163 August 27, 1944 Telegram to M A Jinnah 61 96 4 1 July 3, 1905 Letter to Millie Graham Polak 62 96 9 2 September 19, 1908 Letter to Herman Kallenbach 63 96 9 3 February 9, 1909 Letter to Herman Kallenbach 64 96 9 4 April 5, 1909 Letter to Herman Kallenbach 65 96 9 5 June 19, 1909 Draft Will and Testament 66 96 9 6 June 21, 1909 Letter to Herman Kallenbach 67 96 9 7 June 22, 1909 Letter to Herman Kallenbach 68 96 9 8 June 23, 1909 Letter to Herman Kallenbach 69 96 9 9 July 3, 1909 A Letter (Contd) Economic and Political Weekly November 20, 2004 4969 70 96 9 10 July 3, 1909 Letter to Herman Kallenbach 71 96 9 11 July 7, 1909 Letter to Herman Kallenbach 72 96 9 12 July 17, 1909 Letter to Herman Kallenbach 73 96 9 13 July 21, 1909 Letter to Herman Kallenbach 74 96 9 14 July 30, 1909 Letter to Herman Kallenbach 75 96 10 15 August 7, 1909 Letter to Herman Kallenbach 76 96 10 16 August 12, 1909 Letter to Herman Kallenbach 77 96 10 17 August 20, 1909 Letter to Herman Kallenbach 78 96 10 18 August 28, 1909 Letter to Herman Kallenbach 79 96 10 19 August 30, 1909 Letter to Herman Kallenbach 80 96 10 20 September 10, 1909 Letter to Herman Kallenbach 81 96 10 21 September 17, 1909 Letter to Herman Kallenbach 82 96 10 22 September 24, 1909 Letter to Herman Kallenbach 83 97 10 23 October 1, 1909 Letter to Herman Kallenbach 84 97 10 24 October 27, 1909 Letter to Herman Kallenbach 85 97 10 25 November 14, 1909 Letter to Millie Graham Polak 86 97 10 26 November 15, 1909 Letter to H S L Polak 87 97 22 286 January 22, 1921 Letter to H S L Polak 88 97 23 287 April 10, 1921 Letter to Herman Kallenbach 89 97 24 290 September 29, 1921 Letter to Herman Kallenbach 90 97 72 311 December 28, 1937 Telegram to Herman Kallenbach 91 97 74 319 January 20, 1939 Letter to Herman Kallenbach 92 97 75 320 February 5, 1939 Letter to H S L Polak 93 97 75 321 March 2, 1939 Telegram to Amrit Kaur 94 97 75 322 March 8, 1939 Letter to Herman Kallenbach 95 97 75 323 March/April 1939 Notes to Herman Kallenbach 96 97 75 324 March/ April 1939 Note to Herman Kallenbach 97 97 81 327 August 30, 1941 Letter to H S L Polak the sense of providing a new ‘improved’ translation, improving Gandhiji’s writings. One chance evidence shows that such an exercise might have been attempted. Following are two excerpts of a letter to G D Birla, which was written in Hindi, a comparison of the two shows that linguistic changes might have also been attempted. Bhaishri Ghanshyamdasji, God has given me mentors. I consider you as one of them. Many of my children, many sisters and elderly people such as you and Jamnalalji want to see in me perfection. Knowing this how could I be distressed by your letter. I want you always thus to caution me. You have three complaints: (i) that I absolve the Swaraj Party of the charge of corruption; (ii) that I gave a certificate to Suhrawardy; and (iii) that I have been trying to make Sarojini Devi the president. In the first place, it is a man’s duty to hold fast to truth as he sees it after due striving, even if it should appear a mistake to the world. He cannot become fearless otherwise. I desire nothing so much as moksha. But I would shun even moksha if it went against truth and non-violence (CWMG, Vol 91, pp 525-26). Dear Shri Ghanshyamdas, God has provided me with consciencekeepers. You, I think, are one of them. Some of my own children, some ladies and a few grown-ups like Jamnalalji and yourself want to make me a perfect man. Regarding you thus, how could I be offended by your letter? In fact, I want you always to caution me in this manner. You complain against three things: One, my absolving the Swaraj Party of the charge of corruption; two, my giving a testimonial to Suhrawardy; and, three, my trying to get Sarojini Devi elected as [Congress] president. In the first place, it is one’s duty to say only that which, after a painstaking inquiry, one has come to regard as the truth, even if the world considers it to be an error. In no other way can one become fearless. I cannot consider anything dearer to me than moksha. Yet even that moksha I would renounce if it were to conflict with truth and non-violence (CWMG, E book, Vol 29, p 29). If this is any indication, it proves that the exercise has been not just of re-arranging and deleting but also of re-editing the textual matter. Such callousness to a work of archival nature cannot be tolerated by any individual committed to academic and intellectual integrity. It is our demand that the revised edition, including the CD-ROM, be recalled and scrapped, the original CWMG be reinstated as the only and the most authentic version of the writings and utterances of Gandhiji. The government must take statutory steps to ensure that no attempt to re-edit or recast the CWMG is made even in future. Table: List of Missing Items (Contd) Number Vol No Vol No Sr No As (old) (revised) Per Old Vols Date Description -------------------------------- In Defeat, Let Us Reclaim Our Selves TRIDIP SUHRUD A FEW WEEKS AGO, I was asked to explain my preference for Gujarat. The first of the three responses I gave was the resonance of the Gujarati language. As I tried to articulate this, I recognised that the response, though honest, was part romance, part longing. Because, for the past few years, my relationship with the Gujarati language, Gujarati literature and Gujarati society has been tenuous and marked by longing. It was not always so. My emotional and intellectual core was built in and through Gujarati. It was the language of home and also of school and college. Gijubhai Badheka, Kakasaheb Kalelkar and Jhaverchand Meghani filled my childhood. Govardhanram Tripathi’s Sarasvatichandra was my sole companion during the hot, dusty afternoons of my adolescence. And there was KM Munshi too. I read his racy prose breathlessly. His trilogy excited the imagination, delighted the heart. But, then as now, I remained partial to the world of love, valour and sacrifice that Meghani created. His characters loved deeply, waited till the end of time and fought righteous battles to the death. Swami Anand, Kakasaheb, Prabhudas Gandhi, KG Mashruwala and Ramanlal V. Desai opened for me the world of Gandhi. Poet Sundaram brought to us the sublime beauty of Sri Aurobindo and the Mother of Pondicherry through the journal Dakshina. Umashankar Joshi was our poet laureate. Nagindas Parekh made not only Tagore and Bankim available in Gujarati, but also the Bible, which sounds more true to me in Gujarati even today. Later, under the watchful eye of Achyut Yagnik and Ashis Nandy, I entered the 19th-century world of Narmad, Karsandas Mulji and Manibhai Nabhubhai more academically but without the joy of doing so diminished in any way. My understanding of Gujarati society as also its critique was framed by Gujarati writing. I understood the nature of intense spiritual longing through the painful conversion to Christianity by my favourite Gujarati poet Manishankar Bhatt, “Kant”. As Bapu drew me more and more towards him, I began to recognise the liminal existence that he had in Gujarat’s society and economy. Gandhi’s denial of private property and personal family as the sole heir to legacy went contrary to the ethos of Gujarati mercantile capitalism. His emphasis on a casteless existence perturbed the Gujarati middle class then as it does now. His conviction that one could be a good Sanatani Hindu only when one is simultaneously a good Christian, a devout Muslim and a faithful Parsi challenged our narrow, sectarian way of being religious. Caste and communal conflict was a constant reminder that Gujarat was capable of turning against itself in a frenzied celebration of violence with unnerving regularity. Through all this, my world of emotions and ideas continued to grow, enriched by a new aesthetic sensibility and academic training. The modernism that we had created in art and literature had once recognised and even celebrated the homo-eroticism of Bhupen Khakhar’s paintings and the sexual economy of his stories and plays. But, as we embraced the modern political economy of production and consumption, of trans-national linkages, the modernism of a Bhupen, a Ghulam Sheikh or a Suresh Joshi slipped away from us. The Gujarati language around me had begun to alter. The most definitive sign of this came during the debates around the dam on the Narmada. For the first time after the Mahagujarat movement, which led to the creation of the Gujarat state, Gujarati society and polity attained near unanimity on the Narmada issue. This unanimity had a new tone. All those who opposed the dam, raised the issue of the rehabilitation of the displaced or brought forth environmental audits were termed anti-Gujarat. We had found our “developmental other”. This led to the erasure of dialogue on either side. Gujarat, with its long and generous tradition of voluntary work rooted in self-volition, grew weary of NGOs. With this, we forgot the criminal tribes that Ravishankar Maharaj had hoped to free. We also forgot the tribals, called Raniparaj by Gandhi and Veddchi’s grand old man, Jugatram Dave. The selfless service rendered to the Dalits by Thakkar Bapa and Parikshitlal Majumdar receded to the margins of our collective memory. We forgot the legitimacy of autonomous acts, acts which allow one to be moral. Did we understand the autonomy of Anasuya Sarabhai who fought for the mill-hands of Ahmedabad against her brother Ambalal? Do we understand the rectitude of SEWA and Ela Bhatt? THIS IDEA of forces ranged against us, the people of Gujarat, came to be deeply etched in our minds after the violence of 2002. We had once again turned against ourselves in a macabre dance of violence. In the demonology we created, we were either victims or spectators. As spectators, we could merely watch without bearing witness. Had we any memory of Mahadev Desai, we would have understood the difference between a spectator and a witness — Mahadev showed us the way to be witnesses. A witness is a bearer of Truth. After 2002, the Gujarati language has not been the same — it had no desire to hear pleas for compassion, pity, justice, love, remorse and reconciliation. A language that could not hear of compassion and pity, of penance that cleanses and purifies, cannot be the language of Gandhi. It was not a language of caring and nurturance but of machismo. We wished to purge all that we saw as effeminate in us through our newfound hyper-masculinity. But in so doing, we also purged our language and our cultural selves of all that was feminine; we shut doors on other cultural and psychological possibilities that the recognition of pain and suffering, of nurturance and healing, could have given us. We foreclosed the possibility that some critics might have been moved by genuine love for Gujarat and the desire to see it recover aspects of its linguistic memory and cultural possibility. At a moment when a significantly large part of Gujarat celebrates a stupendous victory for Narendra Modi and “Gujarati asmita”, I want to raise a small, still voice sustaining and weaving memory towards an alternative future. A voice that urges us to recognise the legitimacy of autonomous action, reminds us of the possibilities that we have closed for now. It is a plea to restore to our language categories of compassion, pain, love and nurturance. It is a plea for the feminine in us that is weighed under our masculine asmita. _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From yasir.media at gmail.com Tue May 5 16:05:25 2009 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?windows-1256?B?eWFzaXIgfu3HINPR?=) Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 15:35:25 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] siliguri Message-ID: <5af37bb0905050335s28bfc38fh9f098de1d9d2a507@mail.gmail.com> so what is going on here? i dont understand the title. best. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvaCr1lPD6k From rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com Tue May 5 16:56:02 2009 From: rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com (Rajen Uppinangadi) Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 16:56:02 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Modi and the brush of black colour. Message-ID: <61164a90905050426j7315bbcex54aa3579e33e503@mail.gmail.com> Thanks for the post, we seem to be having only one colour to brush and paint Modi, forgetting that this person has done better than many CMs of the nation in governance of the state. Ofcourse if he has done mistakes it is for the people who are governed are there to talk about it, not arm chair writers who rarely vote.? When they vote for him for his policies and governance this talk of polarisation is absurd, but to say that he is polarising the polity is fallacious, as polity is already polarised thanks to the rule of the oldest party with discrimination and "secular" talks. Regards, rajen. From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Tue May 5 17:19:46 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 04:49:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims Message-ID: <74892.42762.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com>   QUOTE:   It also carried drawings of two white and black flags, the former being the main flag of Holy Prophet Muhammad (Peace be Upon Him) and the latter his military standard. Even now, black-turbaned TNSM members carry the small white and black flags as they walk ahead of Sufi Mohammad. ...... UNQUOTE   This quote is from an article on Maulana Sufi Mohammad written by Rahimullah Yusufzai.  http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=175825    No green flag. No crescent and star on it.   The green flag with the crescent and star on it which is used by Indian Muslims has often caused misunderstandings.   One recent example has been Simi Garewal talking about Pakistani Flags being flown by Indian Muslims. She apologised later for having mistaken the Islamic Flag of the Indian Muslims for the Pakistani Flag.   The close resemblance between the 2 flags confused even Anupam Chakravartty, who inspite of video coverage from Times Now showing it to be a Pakistani Flag, insisted that what was flown in Assam with " sickle (sic) and star on green background  is an islamic symbol" http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2009-April/018755.html   In an earlier mail I had commented:   """""" If this is factual, then the question arises for the Indian Muslims that should they be thinking about using the Islamic Flag without the Crescent and Star so that it does not appear to be close to being the flag of Pakistan? """""" http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2008-December/017016.html   Just thinking aloud   Kshmendra         From c.anupam at gmail.com Tue May 5 17:32:12 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 17:32:12 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Modi and the brush of black colour. In-Reply-To: <61164a90905050426j7315bbcex54aa3579e33e503@mail.gmail.com> References: <61164a90905050426j7315bbcex54aa3579e33e503@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00905050502q787cfb24x1a80b627cece6b66@mail.gmail.com> Dear Rajen, Yes Modi is a better cheif minister than many other states because he can afford better PR persons and even more far reaching PR stunts. Just like how you purchase a product after looking at an advertisement, you expect people would buy modi's argument. thanks to showoffs like modi, the poorest of the poor district such as Dahod (which was at one point of time an important railway hub) has loots in which 20 people armed tribals get together would rob a marriage party, so they can at least stay home till the kharif cropping season begins. when these robbers get arrested, they turn out to be construction workers, who are home to wait for monsoons, so they can use whatever amount of money to buy fertilisers for the genetically modified crops for just the only cropping season -- kharif. there are no other cropping seasons here as it remains mostly dry. narmada canal waters do not come here. oh by the way there are three dams close to the district, but the waters cater to mehsana (from where modi is) and Kheda. thanks anupam On 5/5/09, Rajen Uppinangadi wrote: > > Thanks for the post, > we seem to be having only one colour to brush and paint Modi, forgetting > that this person has done better than many CMs of the nation in governance > of the state. Ofcourse if he has done mistakes it is for the people who are > governed are there to talk about it, not arm chair writers who rarely > vote.? > When they vote for him for his policies and governance this talk of > polarisation is absurd, but to say that he is polarising the polity is > fallacious, as polity is already polarised thanks to the rule of the oldest > party with discrimination and "secular" talks. > > Regards, > rajen. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From javedmasoo at gmail.com Tue May 5 17:38:01 2009 From: javedmasoo at gmail.com (M Javed) Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 17:38:01 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims In-Reply-To: <74892.42762.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <74892.42762.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Kshmendra Who is an Indian Muslim? We need to answer this before we can answer your "...should they be thinking about using the Islamic flag..." Javed On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 5:19 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > QUOTE: > > It also carried drawings of two white and black flags, the former being the main flag of Holy Prophet Muhammad (Peace be Upon Him) and the latter his military standard. Even now, black-turbaned TNSM members carry the small white and black flags as they walk ahead of Sufi Mohammad. ...... UNQUOTE > > This quote is from an article on Maulana Sufi Mohammad written by Rahimullah Yusufzai. > http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=175825 > > No green flag. No crescent and star on it. > > The green flag with the crescent and star on it which is used by Indian Muslims has often caused misunderstandings. > > One recent example has been Simi Garewal talking about Pakistani Flags being flown by Indian Muslims. She apologised later for having mistaken the Islamic Flag of the Indian Muslims for the Pakistani Flag. > > The close resemblance between the 2 flags confused even Anupam Chakravartty, who inspite of video coverage from Times Now showing it to be a Pakistani Flag, insisted that what was flown in Assam with " sickle (sic) and star on green background  is an islamic symbol" > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2009-April/018755.html > > In an earlier mail I had commented: > > """""" If this is factual, then the question arises for the Indian Muslims that should they be thinking about using the Islamic Flag without the Crescent and Star so that it does not appear to be close to being the flag of Pakistan? """""" > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2008-December/017016.html > > Just thinking aloud > > Kshmendra > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From c.anupam at gmail.com Tue May 5 18:38:41 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 18:38:41 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims In-Reply-To: <74892.42762.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <74892.42762.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <341380d00905050608h2d6a7973yd4f2e03637463a04@mail.gmail.com> Dear Kshmendra, I am glad you think aloud. However, I think you did not understand what I was trying to state and what I was denying. And let me be very direct here, that when I am writing something about a place, I have been there and felt what the place is and then probably I would have written something. Now you have just highlighted the fact I deny the flags used in Udalguri and Barpeta districts of Assam during the large scale rioting of the Bodo and Muslim were Pakistani flag, which you say is my confusion. On the contrary, I feel that the confused people were the TV news channels because it was shot by one of the local reporters whose understanding of Muslim is essentially a Pakistani and therefore, it must be seen in suspicion. Let me reiterate that these flags were hoisted in the relief camps so that if there is a victim from the Muslim community, the person can come directly to the camp. It’s true that such camps were never seen in Assam but it signifies the polarisation in the state, where Muslims and Hindus co-existed till 1984 Nellie massacre. Even then, it was just Nagaon or parts of lower Assam, which were occasionally communally tense while other parts never had a ghetto like thing that happened in other parts of India. There are several dargahs in the state, where muslims and hindus pray together. There is Hajo, a place situated west of Guwahati where Powa Makka (quarter of Mecca) revered by Muslims, Hindus and Buddhists for ages. It is said that if you have gone to Powa Makka, you need not go for Haj. Such polarities gain prominence only during the times of strife, when mere flags are seen major symbols. There was a point of time, I remember, when drawing a rising sun was banned because it signified ULFA flag. But these are again apocryphal tales. Thanks for thinking aloud again, Anupam On 5/5/09, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > > QUOTE: > > It also carried drawings of two white and black flags, the former being the > main flag of Holy Prophet Muhammad (Peace be Upon Him) and the latter his > military standard. Even now, black-turbaned TNSM members carry the small > white and black flags as they walk ahead of Sufi Mohammad. ...... UNQUOTE > > This quote is from an article on Maulana Sufi Mohammad written by > Rahimullah Yusufzai. > http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=175825 > > No green flag. No crescent and star on it. > > The green flag with the crescent and star on it which is used by Indian > Muslims has often caused misunderstandings. > > One recent example has been Simi Garewal talking about Pakistani Flags > being flown by Indian Muslims. She apologised later for having mistaken the > Islamic Flag of the Indian Muslims for the Pakistani Flag. > > The close resemblance between the 2 flags confused even Anupam > Chakravartty, who inspite of video coverage from Times Now showing it to be > a Pakistani Flag, insisted that what was flown in Assam with " sickle (sic) > and star on green background is an islamic symbol" > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2009-April/018755.html > > In an earlier mail I had commented: > > """""" If this is factual, then the question arises for the Indian Muslims > that should they be thinking about using the Islamic Flag without the > Crescent and Star so that it does not appear to be close to being the flag > of Pakistan? """""" > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2008-December/017016.html > > Just thinking aloud > > Kshmendra > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Tue May 5 18:55:51 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 14:25:51 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] MNIC: Parliament Questions - 13 Message-ID: <65be9bf40905050625y49390f28l406a77a86c28365c@mail.gmail.com> http://164.100.47.132/psearch/QResult13.aspx?qref=45828 GOVERNMENT OF INDIA MINISTRY OF RAILWAYS LOK SABHA UNSTARRED QUESTION NO 2975 ANSWERED ON 07.12.2000 IDENTITY CARDS UNDER TATKAL SEWA SCHEME . 2975 . Shri SHIVAJI MANE ARUN KUMAR M.V.V.S MURTHI MANJAY LAL RAMJI MANJHI (a) Whether the massive irregularities have been committed in providing identity cards under Tatkal Sewa Scheme: (b) if so, whether any vigilance inquiry has been conducted in this regard: (c) if so, the findings thereof: (d) the details of the officials involved therein alongwith the action taken against each of them: (e) whether private contractors were appointed to issue Identity Cards under Tatkal Sewa Scheme according to the norms laid down by Railways: (f) whether it is a fact that Tatkal Identity Cards become a security threat to the nation : and (g) if so, the steps being taken to cancel Identity Cards, which have already been issued? ANSWER MINISTER OF STATE IN THE MINISTRY OF RAILWAYS (SHRI DIGVIJAY SINGH) (a) to (e) : The matter is under investigation. (f) and (g) : No, Sir. Tatkal Identity Cards were issued with the sole purpose of facilitating passengers to avail themselves of Tatkal reservation facility and they cannot be considered as a proof of identity for any other purpose. Mention of this fact has also been made on these identity cards. A specific public notification to the effect that these Identity Cards should not be relied upon as a document for any other transaction with Government or private agencies, has also been made in newspapers. Moreover, Ministry of Home Affairs and Ministry of External Affairs have also been advised that these Identity Cards cannot be considered as proof of Indian Citizenship or for any other purpose. The ground situation has since changed and voter Identity Card is available to a large number of people. The Tatkal Scheme has also become very popular and people are now aware of the requirements of this Scheme. In view of this, and to avoid any possibility of these cards being mistaken as proof of identity, issue of these cards has since been discontinued. From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Tue May 5 19:03:19 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 14:33:19 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] News Items posted on the net on Multipurpose National Identity Cards-116 Message-ID: <65be9bf40905050633x525d878fr50c1457836ff1e6b@mail.gmail.com> http://www.hindu.com/2004/02/22/stories/2004022200990300.htm The Hindu Videographing for multi-purpose national ID cards By Our Staff Reporter RAMANATHAPURAM, FEB.21. Videographing for issuing multi-purpose national identity cards began today at six centres in the R.S. Mangalam union. The Government has selected Thiruvadanai taluk in the State for implementing a pilot project — distribution of the multi-purpose national identity cards to the residents of the taluk. All those, who attained 15 years of age and above, will be eligible to obtain the card. The district administration has divided the taluk into 373 blocks and appointed 343 enumerators to take a census. A baseline survey was conducted for one month from November 14 to December 14. The population, as per the survey, was 2.19 lakhs in the taluk. Of that, those who attained 15 years of age were 1.58 lakhs, said the Collector, S. Vijaya Kumar. A total of 22 units (computer and video's) have been set up in the six centres for the benefit of the people who can get themselves photographed for three days from today. Moreover, 75 teams consisting of revenue officials and representatives of the civic bodies have also been formed to verify the identification of the eligible candidates. The multi-purpose national identity cards will be given to the residents of the taluk after ascertaining their identity. The district administration has set up a permanent unit in the taluk for the benefit of those persons, who have gone abroad in search of employment. A task force, headed by Suriya Narayanan, RDO, will monitor the entire process, the Collector added. From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Tue May 5 19:42:58 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 07:12:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims In-Reply-To: <341380d00905050608h2d6a7973yd4f2e03637463a04@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <979868.31665.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Anupam   I do not dispute for a moment your expansive understanding of places where you have spent time and perhaps have an in-depth understanding better than that of most others. Nor do I contest that highlighting 'polarities' serves the purpose of Media presentations and coverage that  feeds off the shallowness of sensationalising. We see such highlighting of 'polarities' even amongst such people who one would least expect it of, as on this List.   This time not thinking aloud but saying it aloud, there is a patronising in your defining the  video coverage "shot by one of the local reporters" was by a person "whose understanding of Muslim is essentially a Pakistani and therefore, it must be seen in suspicion." But that is your judgemental attitude and not pertinent here.   What is pertinent here is that the TV Channel TIMES NOW gave a video coverage supposedly being connected with the 'strife' and showing a Pakistani Flag being flown.   There is no doubt in it being a Pakistani Flag. If it was not flown where and when TIMES NOW reported that it was flown then TIMES NOW should be accused of having lied about it and being responsible for stoking communal passions.   I asked just a few days back, "where is the self-regulation' by the Media.   I will now ask the question "whether, if you are convinced that there was a misrepresentation of the facts (as known to you) by TIMES NOW, is it your responsibility as a Media person to complain about it and seek censure?"   Kshmendra     --- On Tue, 5/5/09, anupam chakravartty wrote: From: anupam chakravartty Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims To: "sarai list" Date: Tuesday, May 5, 2009, 6:38 PM Dear Kshmendra, I am glad you think aloud. However, I think you did not understand what I was trying to state and what I was denying. And let me be very direct here, that when I am writing something about a place, I have been there and felt what the place is and then probably I would have written something. Now you have just highlighted the fact I deny the flags used in Udalguri and Barpeta districts of Assam during the large scale rioting of the Bodo and Muslim were Pakistani flag, which you say is my confusion. On the contrary, I feel that the confused people were the TV news channels because it was shot by one of the local reporters whose understanding of Muslim is essentially a Pakistani and therefore, it must be seen in suspicion. Let me reiterate that these flags were hoisted in the relief camps so that if there is a victim from the Muslim community, the person can come directly to the camp. It’s true that such camps were never seen in Assam but it signifies the polarisation in the state, where Muslims and Hindus co-existed till 1984 Nellie massacre. Even then, it was just Nagaon or parts of lower Assam, which were occasionally communally tense while other parts never had a ghetto like thing that happened in other parts of India. There are several dargahs in the state, where muslims and hindus pray together. There is Hajo, a place situated west of Guwahati where Powa Makka (quarter of Mecca) revered by Muslims, Hindus and Buddhists for ages. It is said that if you have gone to Powa Makka, you need not go for Haj. Such polarities gain prominence only during the times of strife, when mere flags are seen major symbols. There was a point of time, I remember, when drawing a rising sun was banned because it signified ULFA flag. But these are again apocryphal tales. Thanks for thinking aloud again, Anupam On 5/5/09, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > > QUOTE: > > It also carried drawings of two white and black flags, the former being the > main flag of Holy Prophet Muhammad (Peace be Upon Him) and the latter his > military standard. Even now, black-turbaned TNSM members carry the small > white and black flags as they walk ahead of Sufi Mohammad. ...... UNQUOTE > > This quote is from an article on Maulana Sufi Mohammad written by > Rahimullah Yusufzai. > http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=175825 > > No green flag. No crescent and star on it. > > The green flag with the crescent and star on it which is used by Indian > Muslims has often caused misunderstandings. > > One recent example has been Simi Garewal talking about Pakistani Flags > being flown by Indian Muslims. She apologised later for having mistaken the > Islamic Flag of the Indian Muslims for the Pakistani Flag. > > The close resemblance between the 2 flags confused even Anupam > Chakravartty, who inspite of video coverage from Times Now showing it to be > a Pakistani Flag, insisted that what was flown in Assam with " sickle (sic) > and star on green background is an islamic symbol" > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2009-April/018755.html > > In an earlier mail I had commented: > > """""" If this is factual, then the question arises for the Indian Muslims > that should they be thinking about using the Islamic Flag without the > Crescent and Star so that it does not appear to be close to being the flag > of Pakistan? """""" > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2008-December/017016.html > > Just thinking aloud > > Kshmendra > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Tue May 5 19:43:01 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 07:13:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims In-Reply-To: <341380d00905050608h2d6a7973yd4f2e03637463a04@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <688652.20084.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Anupam   I do not dispute for a moment your expansive understanding of places where you have spent time and perhaps have an in-depth understanding better than that of most others. Nor do I contest that highlighting 'polarities' serves the purpose of Media presentations and coverage that  feeds off the shallowness of sensationalising. We see such highlighting of 'polarities' even amongst such people who one would least expect it of, as on this List.   This time not thinking aloud but saying it aloud, there is a patronising in your defining the  video coverage "shot by one of the local reporters" was by a person "whose understanding of Muslim is essentially a Pakistani and therefore, it must be seen in suspicion." But that is your judgemental attitude and not pertinent here.   What is pertinent here is that the TV Channel TIMES NOW gave a video coverage supposedly being connected with the 'strife' and showing a Pakistani Flag being flown.   There is no doubt in it being a Pakistani Flag. If it was not flown where and when TIMES NOW reported that it was flown then TIMES NOW should be accused of having lied about it and being responsible for stoking communal passions.   I asked just a few days back, "where is the self-regulation' by the Media.   I will now ask the question "whether, if you are convinced that there was a misrepresentation of the facts (as known to you) by TIMES NOW, is it your responsibility as a Media person to complain about it and seek censure?"   Kshmendra     --- On Tue, 5/5/09, anupam chakravartty wrote: From: anupam chakravartty Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims To: "sarai list" Date: Tuesday, May 5, 2009, 6:38 PM Dear Kshmendra, I am glad you think aloud. However, I think you did not understand what I was trying to state and what I was denying. And let me be very direct here, that when I am writing something about a place, I have been there and felt what the place is and then probably I would have written something. Now you have just highlighted the fact I deny the flags used in Udalguri and Barpeta districts of Assam during the large scale rioting of the Bodo and Muslim were Pakistani flag, which you say is my confusion. On the contrary, I feel that the confused people were the TV news channels because it was shot by one of the local reporters whose understanding of Muslim is essentially a Pakistani and therefore, it must be seen in suspicion. Let me reiterate that these flags were hoisted in the relief camps so that if there is a victim from the Muslim community, the person can come directly to the camp. It’s true that such camps were never seen in Assam but it signifies the polarisation in the state, where Muslims and Hindus co-existed till 1984 Nellie massacre. Even then, it was just Nagaon or parts of lower Assam, which were occasionally communally tense while other parts never had a ghetto like thing that happened in other parts of India. There are several dargahs in the state, where muslims and hindus pray together. There is Hajo, a place situated west of Guwahati where Powa Makka (quarter of Mecca) revered by Muslims, Hindus and Buddhists for ages. It is said that if you have gone to Powa Makka, you need not go for Haj. Such polarities gain prominence only during the times of strife, when mere flags are seen major symbols. There was a point of time, I remember, when drawing a rising sun was banned because it signified ULFA flag. But these are again apocryphal tales. Thanks for thinking aloud again, Anupam On 5/5/09, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > > QUOTE: > > It also carried drawings of two white and black flags, the former being the > main flag of Holy Prophet Muhammad (Peace be Upon Him) and the latter his > military standard. Even now, black-turbaned TNSM members carry the small > white and black flags as they walk ahead of Sufi Mohammad. ...... UNQUOTE > > This quote is from an article on Maulana Sufi Mohammad written by > Rahimullah Yusufzai. > http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=175825 > > No green flag. No crescent and star on it. > > The green flag with the crescent and star on it which is used by Indian > Muslims has often caused misunderstandings. > > One recent example has been Simi Garewal talking about Pakistani Flags > being flown by Indian Muslims. She apologised later for having mistaken the > Islamic Flag of the Indian Muslims for the Pakistani Flag. > > The close resemblance between the 2 flags confused even Anupam > Chakravartty, who inspite of video coverage from Times Now showing it to be > a Pakistani Flag, insisted that what was flown in Assam with " sickle (sic) > and star on green background is an islamic symbol" > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2009-April/018755.html > > In an earlier mail I had commented: > > """""" If this is factual, then the question arises for the Indian Muslims > that should they be thinking about using the Islamic Flag without the > Crescent and Star so that it does not appear to be close to being the flag > of Pakistan? """""" > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2008-December/017016.html > > Just thinking aloud > > Kshmendra > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From anivar.aravind at gmail.com Tue May 5 19:57:57 2009 From: anivar.aravind at gmail.com (Anivar Aravind) Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 19:57:57 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Order of hearing in Binayak's Case . Disappointment about treatment Message-ID: <35f96d470905050727l6ade38f7v2b4ea37d8c87536c@mail.gmail.com> Dear Friends, Wording in the court order On Binayak Sen's case in supreme Court is "best treatment AVAILABLE IN THE STATE AT THE STATE'S EXPENSE" (emphasis added). This is hardly the great victory that I thought it was before I had read the original wording! The argument between the police authorities and Binayak will now resume in Raipur. The police will insist that this SC clearly doesn't want Binayak to be sent to Vellore, Binayak's lawyers will interpret the order to mean he can go to Vellore if he goes at state expense. So we are back to square one. Read the Court Order at http://www.binayaksen.net/2009/05/order-of-hearing-disappointment-about-treatment/ A lot of Protests are taking place in Various Parts of the Country yesterday 185 Activists Courted arrest in Raipur as a part of Raipur Satyagraha (8th week ) http://www.binayaksen.net/2009/05/raipur-satyagraha-8th-week-update/ In Mumbai there was a Solidarity protest yesterday (2nd week) http://www.binayaksen.net/2009/05/mumbai-again/ On May 14th Various Protests are going to take place around the world. We Collected a Tentative list at http://www.binayaksen.net/actions/ Please sent a mail to contact at binayaksen.net to include your protest in This list Anivar Aravind http://Binayaksen.net Follow on Twitter: http://twitter.com/binayaksen Feed: http://feeds.binayaksen.net/binayaksen Mobile : http://m.binayaksen.net -- "The resources of the world are for us all to share. Let us affirm our faith in that common cause" - Dr. Ilina Sen From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Tue May 5 19:58:29 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 07:28:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <348364.48795.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Javed   I was talking about the flag flown by Indian Muslims wherever the Muslim identity is sought to be displayed.   Surely you are not unfamiliar with that flag. It is in green colour and and has a white crescent and a white star on it.   In the context of talking about 'that' flag, your question "Who is an Indian Muslim" is a meaningless one.   The question is whether such a flag as described by me is used by Indian Muslims (wherever it may be used and whosoever amongst the Indian Muslims may use it) and whether 'that' flag gets confused with being the Pakistani flag (which it closely resembles).   The answer to both those questions is YES.   One other question is whether such a flag has any significant historicity that would make it undivorceable from core Islamic Identity. My answer to that question is NO.   I really do not need an answer from you. These questions have to be asked by Indian Muslims of themselves and find their own answers. That exactly was how I had framed my comments.   Kshmendra   --- On Tue, 5/5/09, M Javed wrote: From: M Javed Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Cc: "sarai list" Date: Tuesday, May 5, 2009, 5:38 PM Dear Kshmendra Who is an Indian Muslim? We need to answer this before we can answer your "...should they be thinking about using the Islamic flag..." Javed On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 5:19 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > QUOTE: > > It also carried drawings of two white and black flags, the former being the main flag of Holy Prophet Muhammad (Peace be Upon Him) and the latter his military standard. Even now, black-turbaned TNSM members carry the small white and black flags as they walk ahead of Sufi Mohammad. ...... UNQUOTE > > This quote is from an article on Maulana Sufi Mohammad written by Rahimullah Yusufzai. > http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=175825 > > No green flag. No crescent and star on it. > > The green flag with the crescent and star on it which is used by Indian Muslims has often caused misunderstandings. > > One recent example has been Simi Garewal talking about Pakistani Flags being flown by Indian Muslims. She apologised later for having mistaken the Islamic Flag of the Indian Muslims for the Pakistani Flag. > > The close resemblance between the 2 flags confused even Anupam Chakravartty, who inspite of video coverage from Times Now showing it to be a Pakistani Flag, insisted that what was flown in Assam with " sickle (sic) and star on green background  is an islamic symbol" > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2009-April/018755.html > > In an earlier mail I had commented: > > """""" If this is factual, then the question arises for the Indian Muslims that should they be thinking about using the Islamic Flag without the Crescent and Star so that it does not appear to be close to being the flag of Pakistan? """""" > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2008-December/017016.html > > Just thinking aloud > > Kshmendra > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Tue May 5 20:47:35 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 16:17:35 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims In-Reply-To: <348364.48795.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <348364.48795.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <65be9bf40905050817m4e96a199hb04686c38c52e633@mail.gmail.com> Dear Kshmendra This is with respect to your response to Javed's mail. Contrary to your view, I think, it is the manner in which a homogenizing category like 'Indian Muslim' is mounted in popular discourse, is deeply problematic to me. In my opinion Javed raised an important question, 'Who is an Indian Muslim'? Any contention which seeks to disregard the questioning of such a category as 'meaningless' tends to create a mischief. The reason being simple. One do not know who an Indian Muslim is. Therefore any discourse which seeks to investigate an overlap of so called national and religious identities or accompanying symbols must clarify what these categories stand for. I think on a platform, like this one, we can afford any amount of time and any volume of words to make sure that a suitable clarification is reached. By the way of an inquiry of this nature, we can, I hope, begin, by assuming that a category called Indian Muslim does in fact exists. After which we can start asking preliminary questions like- Who is an Indian Muslim? Where is this category coming from? When did this category first come into play in popular consciousness? Who devised such a category? Why was this category constructed? What was the nature of construction of such a category? What were the socio-politico conditions when such a category was devised? Can we find an example of an Indian Muslim? Would that example be truly representative of all the people of India who cite Islam as their religion? If yes then in what manner? What are various theological strands of Islam in India? How are they different from each other? In what manner are they consistent or inconsistent with the idea of Islam? Can those strands be unified as one? Could there be a singular representation of a religion which is divergent in theory and practice? If no, then would it be correct to club them together as one and present them in a universally identifiable category like 'Muslims'? Warm regards Taha From c.anupam at gmail.com Tue May 5 20:48:47 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 20:48:47 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims In-Reply-To: <348364.48795.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <348364.48795.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <341380d00905050818h10fa58e9o71fae252a91a8a3f@mail.gmail.com> Dear Kshmendra, There is fundamental problem in the way you see a flag or even a symbol as a signifier of something else. That something else is not pre-defined. It is more like an inference. I might have been a little patronising while trying to define the local cameraman’s perspective. But actually, being a media person it is very easy for me to say: *kya chalega aur kya nahi chalega*. A Pakistani flag in the distant Assam facing a demographical problem of Bangladeshi influx as called by various media pundits sounds very interesting. The news reporter in me would not be bothered if a neighbouring ethnic tribe’s relief camp has a flag (signifying its sub-national tendencies) because it is commonplace to find such flags. At one point of time, these flags were banned. My problem is even if it was Pakistani flag, it was a relief camp (even the news channel reporting that incident admits that it was relief camp). Naturally, there were no armed men inside it with guns but with people who bore three or four nights violence just like their Bodo counterparts who were also killed in it. The way this reporter/cameraman could have brought this whole debate in this discourse is by showing and asking consent from people that yes that’s a Pakistani flag. But, look at the irony of this situation; the issue about Bodo-Muslim strife was brought about in the public discourse. And frankly, at one level you have accused of being patronising on the other while replying to Javed, I felt you were extremely condescending. Why should Muslims be bothered about whether they are Indian or not? Why should you consciously pose such question? Why should Indian Muslim always have ask questions, answer themselves? Who gave you those rights to frame your comments? And if you have these rights, then how can you make this statement: “whether such a flag has any significant historicity that would make it undivorceable from core Islamic Identity. My answer to that question is NO” why are you answering this question? Since when have you become a authority on identifying what Islamic identity is and what is not. It is shameful, that when one Sadhvi Pragya gets arrested, no one questions the Hindus as a whole in this country but when there is a Qayamuddin, there are people who start questioning the whole community with all sorts of things. Do you like your community being discussed or questioned all the time? Please answer this. -anupam On 5/5/09, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > Dear Javed > > I was talking about the flag flown by Indian Muslims wherever the Muslim > identity is sought to be displayed. > > Surely you are not unfamiliar with that flag. It is in green colour and and > has a white crescent and a white star on it. > > In the context of talking about 'that' flag, your question "Who is an > Indian Muslim" is a meaningless one. > > The question is whether such a flag as described by me is used by Indian > Muslims (wherever it may be used and whosoever amongst the Indian Muslims > may use it) and whether 'that' flag gets confused with being the Pakistani > flag (which it closely resembles). > > The answer to both those questions is YES. > > One other question is whether such a flag has any significant historicity > that would make it undivorceable from core Islamic Identity. My answer to > that question is NO. > > I really do not need an answer from you. These questions have to be asked > by Indian Muslims of themselves and find their own answers. That exactly was > how I had framed my comments. > > Kshmendra > > --- On Tue, 5/5/09, M Javed wrote: > > From: M Javed > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > Cc: "sarai list" > Date: Tuesday, May 5, 2009, 5:38 PM > > Dear Kshmendra > > Who is an Indian Muslim? > > We need to answer this before we can answer your "...should they be > thinking about using the Islamic flag..." > > Javed > > > > On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 5:19 PM, Kshmendra Kaul > wrote: > > > > QUOTE: > > > > It also carried drawings of two white and black flags, the former being > the main flag of Holy Prophet Muhammad (Peace be Upon Him) and the latter > his > military standard. Even now, black-turbaned TNSM members carry the small > white > and black flags as they walk ahead of Sufi Mohammad. ...... UNQUOTE > > > > This quote is from an article on Maulana Sufi Mohammad written by > Rahimullah Yusufzai. > > http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=175825 > > > > No green flag. No crescent and star on it. > > > > The green flag with the crescent and star on it which is used by Indian > Muslims has often caused misunderstandings. > > > > One recent example has been Simi Garewal talking about Pakistani Flags > being flown by Indian Muslims. She apologised later for having mistaken the > Islamic Flag of the Indian Muslims for the Pakistani Flag. > > > > The close resemblance between the 2 flags confused even > Anupam Chakravartty, who inspite of video coverage from Times Now showing > it to > be a Pakistani Flag, insisted that what was flown in Assam with " sickle > (sic) and star on green background is an islamic symbol" > > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2009-April/018755.html > > > > In an earlier mail I had commented: > > > > """""" If this is factual, then the question > arises for the Indian Muslims that should they be thinking about using the > Islamic Flag without the Crescent and Star so that it does not appear to be > close to being the flag of Pakistan? """""" > > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2008-December/017016.html > > > > Just thinking aloud > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Tue May 5 21:30:26 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 21:30:26 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims In-Reply-To: <341380d00905050818h10fa58e9o71fae252a91a8a3f@mail.gmail.com> References: <348364.48795.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <341380d00905050818h10fa58e9o71fae252a91a8a3f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Kshamendra (and all those who often target Indian Muslims indirectly and directly in this manner) It was said by Jesus Christ and even Gandhi himself, that before pointing towards others, one should point towards oneself. Therefore, before pointing fingers at others, (like Indian Muslims or Muslims of India or Muslims in India, whatever category you may like), please specify what has the Sangh Parivar done for India except abetting rapes and murders? Forget that, please specify what has your contribution been to India for that matter, whether it be good or bad. As far as I see myself, I haven't done anything. And I believe it's better to first do something for the country and thereby prove my own loyalty to it, rather than questioning someone else's loyalty again and again, and thereby asking them to prove it. It is utterly disgusting that some day or the other, Indian Muslims (by this I simply mean Muslims who are citizens of the Indian state) are equated with Pakistan. And here are some greats always targetting them again and again to prove their loyalty, when the fact is that even if all of them turn soldiers and protect our borders, or do any amount of sacrifice for this nation state, some of us would still be unsatisfied of that, and God knows what we may ask from them to prove their loyalty further. Regards Rakesh From yousufism at gmail.com Tue May 5 21:57:07 2009 From: yousufism at gmail.com (M Yousuf) Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 21:57:07 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Is elections in Kashmir all about what media tells us? Message-ID: <19ba050f0905050927h3c1b7aebg74083486832b7da5@mail.gmail.com> http://www.thehoot.org/web/home/story.php?storyid=3815&mod=1&pg=1§ionId=22&valid=true A poll boycott that is not news *Kashmir remains alienated despite the substantial turnout in the assembly elections last year, but the national press has no space for that story. * SEVANTI NINAN contrasts national and local reporting on the third phase of elections in Kashmir. Posted Friday, May 01 21:57:53, 2009 Uttar Pradesh has elections for 80 Lok Sabha seats, Jammu and Kashmir for six. Both have five phase polls. It figures then, that each of those 6 seats is eminently newsworthy. Low, medium or high, the turnout makes news both in the national and local press. On April 30 the turnout in the Anantnag constituency as in many other parts of the country was low, but the contrast in how the story was reported (and framed) in the national press, and in the local English press in Srinagar is significant. Each of the national papers takes care to mention that the low turnout (26 per cent) was in sharp contrast to the assembly polls last year. And given that there is nothing to celebrate, some do not waste space on this non story. The *Times of India* gives it three paras on its 'Dance of Democracy' page, in *Mail Today* it gets a para in an overall round up story on the third phase of polls. *The Indian Express* did not cover Kashmir at all in the main paper, it did in its web edition, in the section called Kashmir Live. The framing is, "Unfazed by the poll boycott call by separatists, nearly 26 per cent of the 11.65 lakh electorate cast their votes in Anantnag." The *Hindu *headline is, 'Vote amid threats, strike action, boycott calls', with a photograph of women queued up to vote and the caption, "Despite the poll boycott called by separatists in Kashmir, people turned up at polling booths. A scene at Pahalgam, south of Srinagar." The story gets top of the page display on an inside page. The Hindu report says "the overall mood is one of defiance," though whether the voter is defying the separatists'call for a boycott or the Central government's effort to get them to vote is not clear. Because at one place the report also says "At some places like Tral, people alleged that the security forces threatened them of dire consequences 'if we don't vote.'" Yet the turnout there was just 3 per cent, says the report. One takes it that people chose to defy the threat of dire consequences if they did not vote. * * *The **Hindustan** Times* in a report datelined Jammu which gets a quarter of a page on its My India My Vote page strikes a different note. It says, "Anantnag goes with separatists, turnout poor." The rest of the reporting which is two different stories does not mince words either: it says the low turnout is clearly because of a boycott and quotes individual voters, one of whom says why he voted in the assembly elections and why he will not do so now. "We need a government in the state which we can approach with our problems. Lok Sabha elections are to form a government at the Centre. What do we care who forms the government at the centre?" HT is also the only paper to explain what the very varied turnout at various segments of the constituency means. The high turnout is in the areas where NC and Congress have sitting MLAs, therefore the results will benefit the ruling combine. As framing goes, the story to beat them all is the one in the *Economic Times,* obviously put together by a creative desk in Delhi. The paper chooses to compare Anantnag and Lalgarh in West Bengal in a report titled, 'Mr Bhattacharjee, do you know Anantnag better than Lalgarh'. It begins, ANANTNAG/LALGARH: Jammu and Kashmir may still be known for poll boycotts and low turnouts, but on Thursday voters in Anantnag did what some of their counterparts in West Bengal could not. They defied Kashmiri separatists’ call and turned up in large numbers to vote while most in Jhargram’s Lalgarh stayed indoors. Large numbers? The story explained that: Anantnag figures were low compared to many other constituencies. But considering that it is a separatist stronghold, the figures were impressive. “Of around 11 lakh electorate, over 3 lakh participated in the polling. The voting percentage stood at 25.5% by early estimates. “It will go further when the final tabulation is done,” said chief electoral officer B R Sharma. The newspapers in Kashmir saw considerably less virtue in Anantnag's turnout. The headlines of half a dozen stories each in *Greater Kashmir* and *Rising Kashmir* are self-explanatory. *Greater **Kashmir*** * * *Islamabad**: Boycott, isolated violence mark LS polls* (Islamabad is the name of a town here.) *Freedom camp buoyed* *Dip in South vote* *Polls in South, siege elsewhere* *Not boycott call, 'broken promises' keep voters away* *Low turnout in Pulwama, Shopian* *People prefer farms to polling booths* *'Omar trained in RSS lab to rule **Kashmir**'* *Seeking removal of CRPF, Khaigam boycotts* *Muftis 'abstain' from voting* *Muftis' abstention shows PDP duplicity: Farooq* *Rising **Kashmir*** *South reverses 2008 turnout / 56 reduces to 26* *Separatists greet people/ Geelani: Follow suit on Sgr, B'la* *Teenagers: We won't vote till **Kashmir** is resolved * *Red-Green war continues/PDP is BJP's extended arm: Rather* *Omar grew up in lap of Advani, Modi: PDP * *Muftis 'boycott' voting * *Brakpora votes to teach NC lesson for April 2000 killings * *When past voters repent, join poll boycotters * *Farmer family prefers field to polling booth * *For 80-yr-old Sabir voting since 1951 has turned futile * *Women outnumber men in voting * There is also an editorial: *Security restrictions* "The state claims that the people turn out in larger numbers during the polling but refuses to admit the fact that in order to conduct polls in any particular constituency two-thirds of Valley is rendered out of bounds for common people. The public movement is strictly restricted and the whole place turned into a garrison; it's worse than in Palestine or Iraq or Afghanistan. This should concern the powers that be. The authorities especially our much celebrated chief minister should not comfort himself by the statistics of voter turnouts in elections; he should rather address this core problem of alienation. Similarly, the separatist forces should review the policy of getting military leadership into the affairs that are purely political. When the militant arm of a separatist alliance intervenes into the public affair of voting or boycotting in an election, the state gets a readymade pretext to mix up the military muscle with a purely political exercise." The paper also has a photograph which is very different from the one in the *Hindu:* that of officials sitting in a completely deserted polling booth. Six seats have to go to the polls in five phases in Jammu and Kashmir so that the rest of the state can be turned into a garrison. That is the truth about elections in Kashmir. It doesn't quite come through, does it, when you read about it in the papers described as the national press? * * The fact that a successful boycott is not news for the *Indian Express, Mail Today *and *Times of India* is an editorial comment in itself. If readers and viewers in the rest of India don't quite get the fact that Kashmirremains pretty alienated despite last December's turnout, they have the Delhi-based media to thank. *(The Hoot will run articles and studies on the media in Kashmir through 2009.)* From jeebesh at sarai.net Tue May 5 21:59:32 2009 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh) Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 21:59:32 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims In-Reply-To: References: <348364.48795.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <341380d00905050818h10fa58e9o71fae252a91a8a3f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: dear All, I do not understand how constantly the list members keep attacking the same entity called muslims and indian muslims. Well all attackers call themselves hindus. The viscousness of the attacks baffles me. If they had power and weapons they can do serious damage. On the other hand, i have not seen any person with so called "muslim name" attack a Hindu or Hinduism, on this list. So why does so called Hindus keep attacking muslims in this list. What kind of blood lust is this? Now days Hinduism is a fairly celebrated religion and thousands of publications and places of worship is a sure sign of that. Yet a weird sense of injured self seem to have justified all kind of rabble rousing. Being cautious of authoritarian organization is one thing, but to keep on attacking a group of people is appalling. warmly jeebesh From yousufism at gmail.com Tue May 5 21:59:37 2009 From: yousufism at gmail.com (M Yousuf) Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 21:59:37 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Elections in Kashmir? Message-ID: <19ba050f0905050929m4ca03168ub5a423f043cb4530@mail.gmail.com> http://www.thehoot.org/web/home/story.php?storyid=3819&mod=1&pg=1§ionId=19&valid=true Manufacturing Consent *If the participation of the people in the J&K assembly elections was a vote for India why is the non-participation this time being attributed to broken promises as reported by Greater Kashmir, poll fatigue as reported by the Himalayan Mail, lack of zeal as the Times of India wants us to believe. * Why? asks NASEER A GANAI. Posted Saturday, May 02 18:14:22, 2009 A large number of people participated in the Jammu and Kashmir assembly elections in the closing months of 2008. In the first phase, when despite the Mumbai carnage large queues were seen outside the polling booths in Bandipora and Sumbal Sonawari irrespective of the boycott call by the pro-freedom groups, the media described it as defiance of separatists. It was one of the big events of the year. It was reported widely and debated for over a month. The target of the debate was pro-freedom groups that had given the boycott call. On one TV programme Barkha Dutt of NDTV asked a separatist leader whether the time had come for them to read the writing on the wall. Some New Delhibased news channels described the voting as a "vote for India." Prannoy Roy of NDTV in a TV discussion on the Kashmir voting sought a reaction from the Pakistani senator Mushahid Hussain from Islamabad. Prannoy argued that now Kashmiris have come out to vote it is clear message to all on what they are for. Secular India! Mushahid retorted "if you are so confident about it, let us have plebiscite in Kashmir tomorrow." The comment annoyed Roy and he responded while saying you are harping about the same thing. Mushahid just laughed. Other news channels adopted the same line that participation of people in elections was the writing on the wall for the pro-freedom groups. However the correspondents based in Kashmir for various news channels described the voting in Kashmir as a vote for development and local issues. But the line was not accepted by the New Delhi-based media and they continued propagate the theory that people defied the separatists. Fine. Everyone has right to have his viewpoint even if the ground realities contradict it. In the Parliamentary elections that are currently on the situation was not different. The South Kashmir Islamabad constituency was first to go for polls. In the Assembly election there was a large participation of people from the South. As in in the Assembly elections the incorrigible pro-freedom groups and the High Court Bar Association (HCBA) had given a boycott call. But they were not given any level playing field. They were not. If in a democracy one has right to campaign and ask people to vote and elect him another has equal right to ask people not to participate. But Kashmir is always different. Those who call for voting enjoy the full protection of the State and those who call for non-participation are under house arrest or in jails. It happened under Governor's rule and it happening now as well. Now back to the polls. Surprisingly, there was less participation of people in the poll process. The Tral constituency remained in news in the Assembly election due to 48.78 percent polling. This time the Election Commission says there was 2.8 percent polling in Tral. In other constituencies the long queues were not seen anywhere except in Noorabad. In Pampore this time it was three percent poling in contrast to 43.42 percent in the Assembly elections. But the media whether local or New Delhibased didn't describe less voting this time as a result of the boycott call. Instead it argued why people didn't come to vote and cited several reasons except the boycott call. *Greater Kashmir* carried a front page three column story by Javid Malik (May 1, 2009) with the headline "Not Boycott Call, Broken Promises Keep Voters Away." *The Himalayan Mail* (May 1, 2009) had lead news story "Poll Fatigue Keeps Voters Away." The *Times of India*carried story about the elections in Kashmir on page I, on May 1, 2009 with headline "Voters Lacked Zeal in Anantnag." *The Daily Excelsior* carried the lead on May 1, 2009, 'Voters Lukewarm Response to Elections." The Delhi-based media adopted the same line and said the response to the elections was lukewarm. Now here are some questions. If the participation of the people in the Assembly elections was vote for India why is the non-participation this time being attributed to broken promises as reported by *Greater Kashmir*, poll fatigue as reported by the *Himalayan Mail*, lack of zeal as the *Times of India* wants us to believe. Why? Why it is not other way round? There is no doubt that there was large number of participation in the Assembly elections and the response to the huge participation was projected in manner first by the media and later by the State as "peoples' final verdict about the Kashmir dispute." The State and the political parties were not quick to react to the participation of people in the elections and didn't come up with inferences within hours after the polling started in the Assembly elections in the State. But the media was ecstatic, particularly Delhi-based news channels. They were first to describe the elections as "vote for India." And then the State reacted welcoming the participation of the people in the poll process and the Congress Chief Sonia Gandhi while inaugurating the first international flight from Sheikh-ul-Alam Airport (Srinagar Airport was to be renamed as Sheik-ul Alam Airport, but it was not) said that neighbors (Pakistan) should learn a lesson from participation of people in the elections. In fact the Congress in its manifesto describes the participation of people in the Assembly elections in the State of Jammu and Kashmir as one of its major achievements. But the State and the politicians should be given credit fort not going overboard soon after the 66 percent participation of the people in rural belts during the Assembly elections. The Srinagar city, towns including Islamabad, Varmul, Sopur saw far less participation in the Assembly election. If objectivity and fairness is the criterion in reporting events then it seems we media persons are selectively objective and selectively fair in reporting. If the poll participation was news during the Assembly elections and the media was quick describe it as the failure of the boycott call of the pr-freedom groups, why the non-participation this time failed to make any news and if it made why it was it attributed to the luke warm response and the broken promises. Why? Are there different standards of objectivity? If during the Assembly elections the media presumed that it was the vote against the pro-freedom groups and in favour of secular democratic India, why has the media stopped presuming anything this time? Instead it has started looking for hardcore facts that could be responsible for the low percentage of the voting. Why were these facts were not sought during the Assembly elections? The participation or non-participation in the Parliamentary elections should make bigger news and should be debated because the here the vote means a vote for Indian parliament, that means a vote for India. And the general perception is that the Assembly is all about the local issues and development. Moreover, the Assembly elections were debate over a month on New Delhi-based TV channels despite the Mumbai carnage and a war like situation between India and Pakistan. Why are the parliamentary elections not being debated? Is media manufacturing consent by giving two different reasons for the same process? The answer is big yes. *( The author is senior correspondent with Greater Kashmir*) From javedmasoo at gmail.com Tue May 5 22:00:01 2009 From: javedmasoo at gmail.com (M Javed) Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 22:00:01 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims In-Reply-To: <348364.48795.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <348364.48795.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Kshmendra I think Anupam and Taha have already taken care of the points I would have engaged with you (and they communicate better than me). I am simply not convinced with your answer. I found your phrase "flag flown by Indian Muslims wherever the Muslim identity is sought" very very problematic. We fight against this stereotype everyday - you simply are trying to create a monolith of Indian Muslims. And, to heck with the historicity - I bloody well know that green colour and cresent/star have not much significance in Islam. And one could probably extend that historicity to other communities and identities too. Why should saffron be appropriated only by the Hindu-extremists? Has it got any historicity. And please stop using statements like "These questions have to be asked by Indian Muslims of themselves" - you said something similar when talking about Quran and Hadis recently -- advicing the Muslims to start reading Quran and hadis separately, and so on. You can have an opinion of yours, but to suggest that so and so should start following what I advocate, is something likely to bring brickbats for you. cheers J On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 7:58 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Javed > > I was talking about the flag flown by Indian Muslims wherever the Muslim > identity is sought to be displayed. > > Surely you are not unfamiliar with that flag. It is in green colour and and > has a white crescent and a white star on it. > > In the context of talking about 'that' flag, your question "Who is an Indian > Muslim" is a meaningless one. > > The question is whether such a flag as described by me is used by Indian > Muslims (wherever it may be used and whosoever amongst the Indian Muslims > may use it) and whether 'that' flag gets confused with being the Pakistani > flag (which it closely resembles). > > The answer to both those questions is YES. > > One other question is whether such a flag has any significant historicity > that would make it undivorceable from core Islamic Identity. My answer to > that question is NO. > > I really do not need an answer from you. These questions have to be asked by > Indian Muslims of themselves and find their own answers. That exactly was > how I had framed my comments. > > Kshmendra > > --- On Tue, 5/5/09, M Javed wrote: > > From: M Javed > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > Cc: "sarai list" > Date: Tuesday, May 5, 2009, 5:38 PM > > Dear Kshmendra > > Who is an Indian Muslim? > > We need to answer this before we can answer your "...should they be > thinking about using the Islamic flag..." > > Javed > > > > On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 5:19 PM, Kshmendra Kaul > wrote: >> >> QUOTE: >> >> It also carried drawings of two white and black flags, the former being > the main flag of Holy Prophet Muhammad (Peace be Upon Him) and the latter > his > military standard. Even now, black-turbaned TNSM members carry the small > white > and black flags as they walk ahead of Sufi Mohammad. ...... UNQUOTE >> >> This quote is from an article on Maulana Sufi Mohammad written by > Rahimullah Yusufzai. >> http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=175825 >> >> No green flag. No crescent and star on it. >> >> The green flag with the crescent and star on it which is used by Indian > Muslims has often caused misunderstandings. >> >> One recent example has been Simi Garewal talking about Pakistani Flags > being flown by Indian Muslims. She apologised later for having mistaken the > Islamic Flag of the Indian Muslims for the Pakistani Flag. >> >> The close resemblance between the 2 flags confused even > Anupam Chakravartty, who inspite of video coverage from Times Now showing it > to > be a Pakistani Flag, insisted that what was flown in Assam with " sickle > (sic) and star on green background  is an islamic symbol" >> http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2009-April/018755.html >> >> In an earlier mail I had commented: >> >> """""" If this is factual, then the question > arises for the Indian Muslims that should they be thinking about using the > Islamic Flag without the Crescent and Star so that it does not appear to be > close to being the flag of Pakistan? """""" >> http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2008-December/017016.html >> >> Just thinking aloud >> >> Kshmendra >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: > > From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Tue May 5 22:20:53 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 22:20:53 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Modi and the brush of black colour. In-Reply-To: <341380d00905050502q787cfb24x1a80b627cece6b66@mail.gmail.com> References: <61164a90905050426j7315bbcex54aa3579e33e503@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00905050502q787cfb24x1a80b627cece6b66@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear All Since people always seem to be complaining that Modi is painted with a communal brush and that the 'sickulars' are always after him, I for the moment will now portray his and his govt's other sides, not depicted by me, but put up in the CAG report of Civil Audit ending March 31, 2008. This is a series of set of facts presented in CAG report which I am putting up. This report, as also others are there in public domain and you can check them to find out in case you have doubts. Please type CAG in google and check on the site, you can find the file from which I am putting out these contents. Enjoy reading, if you have the patience to read this. This is just the first set. I will soon put further facts which can finally ensure people see Modi in real light rather than the PR light in which he wants us to see. This does not mean Congres or Left governments have done well, it only is a reflection of what Modi's government is. Regards Rakesh *Gujarat fact file:* *Grants & Appropriations* 1) *Grant No.66 - Irrigation & Soil Conservation* As against an amount of Rs. 1238.82 crore to be spent originally as grant, the actual expenditure was just Rs. 1,000.63 crore rupees, thereby saving Rs 238.19 crore. This was mainly due to slow progress of work, non-receipt of administrative approval and non-commencement of work. 2) As per Article 205 of the Constitution of India, it is mandatory for a State government to get excess amount over a grant/appropriation regularized by the State Legislature. However, the excess expenditure amounting to Rs. 13122.85 crore for the years 1993-94 to 2006-07, had not been regularized as far as August 2008. This is breach of Legislative control over appropriations. 3) Under 43 cases of grants and appropriations, an excess of Rs. 1055.38 crore was spent during the year, which had to be regularized under Article 205 of the Constitution. However, reasons for the excess had not been furnished as of August 2008. 4) In 31 cases, against additional requirement of only Rs. 1253.03 crore, supplementary grants and appropriations of Rs. 1587.46 crore were obtained, resulting in savings aggregating to Rs. 334.43 crore. Why? God knows. 5) In 30 cases, supplementary provision of Rs. 1063.34 crore proved insufficient leaving an uncovered excess expenditure of Rs. 982.34 crore. 6) In case of 'superannuation and Retirement allowances to Panchayat employees', since three fiscal years (2005-06, 2006-07 and 2007-08), excess amount has been put against required allocation as grants consistently. Why? 7) In 119 caes of grants/appropriations, Rs. 4,085.60 crore were surrendered in March 2008, thereby indicating inadequate financial control over expenditure. 8) The expenditure incurred in March 2008 in 18 cases ranged between 44 and 99 percent of the total expenditure during the year indicating a tendency to utilize the budget at the close of the financial year, rather than distributing govt. expenditure evenly throughout the year. The rush of expenditure in the closing months of the financial year is regarded as a breach of financial rules. 9) In 49 cases, expenditure aggregating Rs.1430.46 crore exceeded the original provisions by Rupees five crore or more in each case and also by more than 10 per cent of the total provisions. 10) As envisaged in Budget Manual, expenditure should not be incurred on a scheme/service without provision of funds. It was, however, noticed that, expenditure amounting to Rs.579.18 crore was incurred in 7 cases without any provision wherein rupees one lakh and above in each case was incurred. 11) *Audit of Abstract and Detailed Contingent Bills* As per codal provisions and instructions issued by the State Government, DC Bills should be sent to the Accountant General (Accounts and Entitlement) Gujarat, Rajkot, by Drawing and Disbursing Officers within three months from the date of drawal of AC Bills. The amount drawn on AC Bill should be utilised by the Drawing and Disbursing Officer for the purpose for which the drawal was made. Test check of abstract contingent (AC) Bills and detailed contingent (DC) Bills in departments revealed the following: *Non-submission of DC Bills* Rupees 13.91 crore were drawn on 79 AC Bills between March 2004 and December 2007 , for which no DC Bills were submitted. Out of these, Rs.8.47 crore drawn on 11 AC Bills (Rs.1.28 crore drawn on five AC Bills in March 2004; Rs3.36 crore drawn on three AC Bills March 2005 and Rs.1.40 crore drawn on an AC Bill in March 2006 by the Administrative Officer, General Hospital, Gandhinagar ; Rs.1.23 crore drawn on one AC Bill in March 2006 and Rs.1.20 crore drawn on another AC Bill in March 2007 by the Administrative Officer, Central Jail, Sabarmati, Ahmedabad) were credited in the PLA, in contravention of the provisions of the Treasury Rules apparently to avoid lapse of grants. *Narmada, Water Resources, Water Supply and Kalpsar Department 1) Sujalam Suphalam Yojana* *Highlights: * The Spreading Canal targeted to complete by December 2005 at cost of Rs.458.50 crore has not been completed despite expenditure of Rs.911 crore. There were cases of non-achievement of physical targets, delay in execution of works. As against target of 32 drinking water supply schemes for providing water to 4,904 villages and 34 towns, only six schemes were completed and only 2,524 villages and 19 towns were covered till March 2008. A review of these projects disclosed that the progress of these projects was hampered mainly due to large number of contracts awarded to individual contractors, delay in land acquisition and in obtaining permission from Forest, Railway and Road authorities. In many cases, estimates were unrealistic resulting in contractors enjoying huge unintended and undue benefits. *More Highlights: * a) Execution of work of Sujalam Suphalam Spreading Canal without public participation led to additional burden of Rs.55.73 crore on the exchequer b) Due to incorrect fixation of unit rate avoidable liability of Rs.21.01 crore was created c) Ignoring the decision to award one contract to a contractor, 102 contracts involving Rs.396.30 crore were awarded to 16 contractors d) Excavated hard rock of Rs.66.01 crore was not accounted for e) Due to non-completion of four pumping stations, expenditure of Rs.255.70 crore on Hathmati-Guhai Pipeline Project became idle investment f) Pumping operations were not carried out from Piyaj-Dharoi Pipeline project constructed at a cost of Rs.266.47 crore rendering the expenditure unfruitful since November 2004 g) Non-synchronisation of work of 54 check dams with the work of Narmada branch canal resulted in blocking up of Government fund of Rs.33.52 crore h) 3,256 check dams constructed at a cost of Rs.97.35 crore during 2004-08 were damaged to the extent of Rs.20.03 crore during monsoon i) Four group water supply schemes covering 123 villages, completed between May 2005 and July 2006 at a cost of Rs.37.25 crore were not accepted by Village Panchayats due to availability of water from other sources j) Excess payment of Rs.8.93 crore was made for price variation of steel plates/HR coils *2) Unfruitful Expenditure Achievements*: *a) Hathmati-Guhai Pipeline Project* To provide drinking water and irrigation facility to North Gujarat Region, the Chief Engineer, NWRWSKD accorded AA (November 2001 –Rs.311 Crore and revised October 2004 – Rs.333.37 crore) and TS for Rs.332.62 crore (November 2004) for Hathmati - Guhai Pipeline Project. The work of laying of pipeline executed through Drainage Division, Gandhinagar and Water Resources Investigation Division, Himatnagar, commenced in February 2005 was completed in February 2007 and March 2007 as against stipulated date of February 2006, at a cost of Rs.255.70 crore. However, the work of four pumping stationswhich was to be completed by August 2006, was not completed (March 2008). Expenditure of Rs.28.01 crore was incurred on these pumping stations. Thus, non-synchronization of pipeline work with pumping station works resulted in idle investment of Rs.255.70 crore on pipeline work. Besides, the intended benefits remained unachieved. The Government attributed (September 2008) the delay to heavy rainfall in 2006 and 2007. This was not tenable as execution period was fixed taking into account the monsoon period and both works should have been taken up simultaneously. * b) Piyaj-Dharoi Pipeline Project.* Government accorded AA (November 2001 –Rs.311 crore -revised October 2004 – Rs.333.37 crore) and TS for Rs.170.20 crore (July 2002) for Piyaj - Dharoi Pipeline Project. The work involving laying of pipeline and three pumping stations commenced in December 2002 and was scheduled to be completed by December 2003 was completed in November 2004 at total cost of Rs.266.47 crore. However, the project failed to pump water into the Dharoi dam till March 2008 rendering the expenditure Rs.266.47 crore unfruitful. Reasons were not available on record and were also not furnished by concerned Divisional Officers, though called for (April 2008). *c) Check dams constructed in Surendranagar district* Government accorded (August 2004) AA for Rs.84.88 crore for construction of 107 check dams on big rivers of Surendranagar District. Accordingly 28 packages have been approved for execution of work. Out of 107 check dams, 72 check dams were planned to be filled in by surplus flood water of Narmada river through six branch canals of Narmada Canal, construction of two of which were completed (March 2008). Scrutiny revealed that out of 100 check dams completed, 54 check dams constructed at a cost of Rs.33.52 crore were falling under the command area of Narmada project resulting in overlapping of the command areas. Since the location of the check dams was already covered under the Narmada project and the check dams are intended to store rain water, the basic purpose of the check dam is defeated. Further, the work of canals from which the check dams were proposed to be filled in was expected to be completed by 2010 which indicated that the check dams were constructed without proper planning. Further, due to nonsynchronization of check dams work with Narmada branch canal work resulted in blocking up of Government fund of Rs.33.52 crore. *d) Balaram Water Resources Project* Government accorded AA (January 1999) and TS (October 2004) for Rs.8.07 crore for construction of earthen dam, masonry dam, spill way and head regulator of Balaram water resources project to provide irrigation facilities to 483 ha of land in three villages60 of Palanpur district. The project also included construction of main canal and branch canal estimated to cost Rs.1.17 crore. Scrutiny revealed that the above work was completed (June 2007) at a cost of Rs.9.98 crore. However, work of main canal and branch canal was not taken up, as nine km canal length was falling in Forest land, of which 2.5 km was under Wildlife Sanctuary. The proposal for acquisition of forest land was submitted (January 2008) to forest authorities. Thus, no fruitful purpose was served out of expenditure of Rs.9.98 crore; besides depriving the irrigation facility to the targeted population. *e) Abandoned work* The work of construction of Canal Syphon across river Khari (Mehsanachainage 210.300 km) was awarded (April 2005) to a contractor at his tendered cost of Rs.3.25 crore with time limit of 6 months. Scrutiny revealed that after executing the work to the extent of Rs.1.21 crore (37 per cent), the contractor abandoned the work (July 2007), reason for which was not on record. Looking to the slow progress of work, the CE had instructed (January 2006) SE to relieve the contractor and re-invite tenders for the remaining work. The Division had also submitted (March 2006) the proposal to the SE for termination of contract. However, neither the contract was terminated nor has the work been completed so far (June 2008). *f) Check dams* To conserve water, 10,971 Check dams (total cost-Rs.352.73 crore) were constructed under SSY during 2005-08 with Government contribution and public participation of either in the form of cash or labour, through Prayojaks. The rate of contribution was 60 per cent and 40 per cent respectively for Government and public up to March 2005, and 80 per cent and 20 per cent thereafter. In Kachchh Irrigation Division, 144 check dams (cost Rs.5.28 crore) were constructed during 2003-06. Scrutiny revealed that as against 60 per cent contribution (Rs.4.22 crore) payable after quality check, Government paid Rs.2.07 crore. The payment ranged from 10 per cent to 55 per cent of the cost of check dam, though there was no provision in the agreement for such restriction. Further, 70 check dams (49 per cent) for which Rs.77.94 lakh was paid by Government, were found (2006-07) to be substandard by quality control division of the Department. In 14 test checked Divisions71 7,789 check dams (total cost Rs.232.69 crore) were constructed during 2004-08. During monsoon in 2006-07 and 2007-08, 3,256 (42 per cent) check dams constructed at a cost of Rs.97.35 crore were damaged to the extent of Rs.20.03 crore. Government incurred expenditure of Rs.9.36 crore for repairing 1,788 check dams, though as per the agreement, maintenance and repairs were to be carried out by prayojaks. Remaining 1,468 check dams were yet to be repaired (March 2008). *g) Water supply schemes not accepted by villagers* As per Administrative and Financial Regulation of GWSSB, completed WSSs should be accepted by the Village Panchayats/Urban Local Bodies. Scrutiny revealed that four WSSs 76 were completed (December 2004, July 2006) at a cost of Rs.198.54 crore. Out of 628 villages targeted, 324 (52 per cent) villages had refused to accept WSSs for which reasons were not available; this indicated that adequate survey was not carried out regarding demand for water by the villagers. * h) Idle investment of water supply project* In Palanpur Division, four group water supply schemes covering 123 villages, were completed between May 2005 and July 2006 at a cost of Rs.37.25 crore. However, none of the Village Panchayats had accepted the water from the scheme, due to availability of water from other sources, which resulted in idle investment of Rs.37.25 crore. From shuddha at sarai.net Tue May 5 22:39:31 2009 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 22:39:31 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims In-Reply-To: References: <348364.48795.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <341380d00905050818h10fa58e9o71fae252a91a8a3f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear All, Dear Jeebesh I have found this discussion on the shape of flags, affiliations and ideological commitments, fascinating. I have the same interest in flags that the writer Vladimir Nabakov had in butterflies. i think they are even more beautiful when they are lifeless. Until not so long ago, the erstwhile Kingdom of Nepal was the only 'Hindu' state in the world. And yet, I have no recollection of 'Hindutva' enthusiasts in India being accused of being stooges of the usually inebriated Nepali monarchy. I find this somewhat odd, and incongruous. But, now that I come to think of it, the Nepali flag consists of two near isoceles triangles. And the 'bhagwa dhvaj', or saffron flag, so beloved of the bearers of the Hindutva ideal in India is usually also flown as a single saffron isoceles triangle. Since such a great deal is being made on this list about the correspondences between shapes and colours, I thought I might add my own two bits on the surprising similarity of the 'isoceles' triangle shape, as seen compared between the Royal Nepali flag and the Hindutva flag. Now, though I am fascinated by flags, unfortunately, patrtiotism (or the emotions that most flags conjure) is beyond my modest intellectual reach. But I am sure that there are people on this list who are, proud patriots, and who wear their Indian nationalism (secular or otherwise) prominently on their sleeve. And, since flags, their shape, size, colour, geometry etc. matter a great deal to patriots (they do not, to me, sneaky low-down anarchist that I am, but I have heard that patriots are prepared to die for these precious fragments of textile) then, to those that they do matter, perhaps there would be no doubt (as borne out by the form of flags) the Hindutva Held Constituency of this list could be best described as the covert flag bearers of the (hopefully) erstwhile Royalist Nepali agenda in Indian politics. I say this only because it makes as much sense to say this as it does to read deep meanings into the flags sometime flown in some Muslim neighbourhoods in different parts of India. No more, no less. On a different note altogether, It is my fervent hope that the Hindutva Held constituency in India will follow the example set by its mentors, the Royal House of Nepal, and take the honourable path of auto-destruction, aided, like the late His Highness the Prince Dipendra, by means of intoxication and a choice selection of automatic weapons. I wait for that day, eagerly, so that the safforn flag of Hindutva, lifeless and beautiful in death, would join my 'butterflag' collection of extinct standards. best Shuddha On 05-May-09, at 9:59 PM, Jeebesh wrote: > dear All, > > I do not understand how constantly the list members keep attacking the > same entity called muslims and indian muslims. Well all attackers call > themselves hindus. The viscousness of the attacks baffles me. If they > had power and weapons they can do serious damage. > > On the other hand, i have not seen any person with so called "muslim > name" attack a Hindu or Hinduism, on this list. So why does so called > Hindus keep attacking muslims in this list. What kind of blood lust is > this? > > Now days Hinduism is a fairly celebrated religion and thousands of > publications and places of worship is a sure sign of that. Yet a weird > sense of injured self seem to have justified all kind of rabble > rousing. > > Being cautious of authoritarian organization is one thing, but to keep > on attacking a group of people is appalling. > > warmly > jeebesh > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From yasir.media at gmail.com Tue May 5 23:23:33 2009 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?windows-1256?B?eWFzaXIgfu3HINPR?=) Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 22:53:33 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims In-Reply-To: References: <348364.48795.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <341380d00905050818h10fa58e9o71fae252a91a8a3f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5af37bb0905051053i45414dd4r10c09b65a01d6bc3@mail.gmail.com> the question has been put in a funny way. but one can't also move away from the reality of it. the question of whether the chiapas did a better media job is probably also the wrong question., or whether they should change their identity - whoever they are - is also probably not right. Even for the sympathetic question, the reality is harsh. On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 10:09 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > Dear All, Dear Jeebesh > > I have found this discussion on the shape of flags, affiliations and > ideological commitments, fascinating. I have the same interest in > flags that the writer Vladimir Nabakov had in butterflies. i think > they are even more beautiful when they are lifeless. > > Until not so long ago, the erstwhile Kingdom of Nepal was the only > 'Hindu' state in the world. And yet, I have no recollection of > 'Hindutva' enthusiasts in India being accused of being stooges of the > usually inebriated Nepali monarchy. I find this somewhat odd, and > incongruous. > > But, now that I come to think of it, the Nepali flag consists of two > near isoceles triangles. And the 'bhagwa dhvaj', or saffron flag, so > beloved of the bearers of the Hindutva ideal in India is usually also > flown as a single saffron isoceles triangle. Since such a great deal > is being made on this list about the correspondences between shapes > and colours, I thought I might add my own two bits on the surprising > similarity of the 'isoceles' triangle shape, as seen compared between > the Royal Nepali flag and the Hindutva flag. > > Now, though I am fascinated by flags, unfortunately, patrtiotism (or > the emotions that most flags conjure) is beyond my modest > intellectual reach. But I am sure that there are people on this list > who are, proud patriots, and who wear their Indian nationalism > (secular or otherwise) prominently on their sleeve. > > And, since flags, their shape, size, colour, geometry etc. matter a > great deal to patriots (they do not, to me, sneaky low-down anarchist > that I am, but I have heard that patriots are prepared to die for > these precious fragments of textile) then, to those that they do > matter, perhaps there would be no doubt (as borne out by the form of > flags) the Hindutva Held Constituency of this list could be best > described as the covert flag bearers of the (hopefully) erstwhile > Royalist Nepali agenda in Indian politics. > > I say this only because it makes as much sense to say this as it does > to read deep meanings into the flags sometime flown in some Muslim > neighbourhoods in different parts of India. No more, no less. > > On a different note altogether, It is my fervent hope that the > Hindutva Held constituency in India will follow the example set by > its mentors, the Royal House of Nepal, and take the honourable path > of auto-destruction, aided, like the late His Highness the Prince > Dipendra, by means of intoxication and a choice selection of > automatic weapons. > > I wait for that day, eagerly, so that the safforn flag of Hindutva, > lifeless and beautiful in death, would join my 'butterflag' > collection of extinct standards. > > best > > Shuddha > > > > > On 05-May-09, at 9:59 PM, Jeebesh wrote: > > > dear All, > > > > I do not understand how constantly the list members keep attacking the > > same entity called muslims and indian muslims. Well all attackers call > > themselves hindus. The viscousness of the attacks baffles me. If they > > had power and weapons they can do serious damage. > > > > On the other hand, i have not seen any person with so called "muslim > > name" attack a Hindu or Hinduism, on this list. So why does so called > > Hindus keep attacking muslims in this list. What kind of blood lust is > > this? > > > > Now days Hinduism is a fairly celebrated religion and thousands of > > publications and places of worship is a sure sign of that. Yet a weird > > sense of injured self seem to have justified all kind of rabble > > rousing. > > > > Being cautious of authoritarian organization is one thing, but to keep > > on attacking a group of people is appalling. > > > > warmly > > jeebesh > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From indersalim at gmail.com Wed May 6 00:07:43 2009 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 00:07:43 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims In-Reply-To: <74892.42762.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <74892.42762.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70905051137i2572f0ao74831a313a9b2b64@mail.gmail.com> Dear Kshmendra, I am not using this an opportunity to point out this fact, but it struck me earlier as well..... when you instantly clubbed development of Gujarat with Modi. I agree that ‘evil’ cant be visualized just in the face of one bearded man,........... but we must not forget how Germany progressed under HItler as well. So what is Development? Imagine if the boys who killed Aman Kachroo were toppers, would you forgive them? I guess no. We have to ask many questions to ourselves, before we ask others. here muslims, poor muslims .who never voted for Partition, never knew even about what it was all aboutt, and never know even why they are called pakistanis here in India, and never even know why they are sometimes unwittingly following a green colour with crecent and star, never know even that it has nothing to do with Islam....... The issue of Flag and Indian Muslims is as old one. We all know, how Kashmiris wittingly vent their anger against Indian occupation by identifying themselves with this flag. It has all to do with partition related pending issues.... whether u like it not, Pakistan is a reality, even during the current crises. And pakistan is not only green, crescent and star , but something more like India is not tricolour only It is here, your intellect falls on banana peels, because you have zero tolerance against something called Nation State. you feel, nothing should rip this sacred word, not even at the level of rhetoric...not even if Plague like thing fills the air we breath. i am Indian , but I dont know who qualifies as a true Indian in the first place.......where are those translations which we can store in a locker room, and exhibit as tags on our foreheads to describe our loyaty to the Nation as and when a so called Hindu Indian demands from us... why so Meanwhile, like Narender Modi i too think you have a brilliant mind, a talent to grasp the content of mails quickly and reflect back with speed, but alas, ....... with love and regards inder salim I quote Kshmendra from you other brilliant response to Jebeesh forward of Tridip Suhrud A hundred years from today will anyone other than Gandhi (MK) belong to history? I see no one who will be anything more than italicised footnotes in very small print. again, Mr. Kshmendra, u are wrong, which does not mean that i am right is On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 5:19 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > QUOTE: > > It also carried drawings of two white and black flags, the former being the main flag of Holy Prophet Muhammad (Peace be Upon Him) and the latter his military standard. Even now, black-turbaned TNSM members carry the small white and black flags as they walk ahead of Sufi Mohammad. ...... UNQUOTE > > This quote is from an article on Maulana Sufi Mohammad written by Rahimullah Yusufzai. > http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=175825 > > No green flag. No crescent and star on it. > > The green flag with the crescent and star on it which is used by Indian Muslims has often caused misunderstandings. > > One recent example has been Simi Garewal talking about Pakistani Flags being flown by Indian Muslims. She apologised later for having mistaken the Islamic Flag of the Indian Muslims for the Pakistani Flag. > > The close resemblance between the 2 flags confused even Anupam Chakravartty, who inspite of video coverage from Times Now showing it to be a Pakistani Flag, insisted that what was flown in Assam with " sickle (sic) and star on green background  is an islamic symbol" > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2009-April/018755.html > > In an earlier mail I had commented: > > """""" If this is factual, then the question arises for the Indian Muslims that should they be thinking about using the Islamic Flag without the Crescent and Star so that it does not appear to be close to being the flag of Pakistan? """""" > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2008-December/017016.html > > Just thinking aloud > > Kshmendra > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From anansi1 at earthlink.net Wed May 6 05:42:42 2009 From: anansi1 at earthlink.net (Paul D. Miller) Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 20:12:42 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [Reader-list] MIT Press - Sound Unbound - Sound Art, Digital Media Message-ID: <23080812.1241568762448.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Hello to the Sound Unbound crew! I'm just writing to say a basic hi and to give you a tiny update about what's been going on! It's been a while since we all corresponded about Sound Unbound, and there have been many developments. We've had highly successful book launches everywhere from Melbourne, Toronto, Vienna, London, Naples, Paris, Rome, Milan, San Francisco, Washington DC, Yale, MIT and many spots in between, and the book has been pretty much one of MIT's best selling books for the last several months. I still have to hit parts of Asia (Singapore, Tokyo, Seoul, Calcutta etc probably over the summer) and the Moscow/St Petersburg releases will be in the autumn. We're getting everything ready for the amazon.com Kindle release of Sound Unbound, and we're getting the book geared up for a "remix" - all essays that were in the normal book form (except Simon Reynolds) will migrate to new electronic forms. To spice up the electronic editions, there will be several additions and many more web links (sound mixes, excerpts from compositions etc). You can follow details at www.soundunbound.com We're adding a short afterward by an old friend of mine, the renowned hiphop historian Jeff Chang, author of the best selling hip hop history "Can't Stop Won't Stop." More on that in a little while. During the interim, check out the book! It's doing quite well in the academic scene! It was very difficult to get everyone's essay into the book, but it's been a gratifyingly dynamic situation. The book isn't really a "commercial" situation - it's been a passion of mine to break down barriers between scenes, styles, and above all - genres. Where else would you find Pierre Boulez and Chuck D hanging out (by the way, I'd love to put you two together one of these days!). Call it "book as playlist entropy!" Anyway, thanks again! in peace, Paul aka Dj Spooky From chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Wed May 6 09:31:59 2009 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com (chanchal malviya) Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 21:01:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims In-Reply-To: References: <74892.42762.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <562330.29752.qm@web90404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Indian Muslims are those whose forefathers betrayed with their own base foundation Hinduism - either out of fear or lust. Indian Muslims are those who historically didn't play a major role in Indian Independence, and rather took lead in Khilafat with Gandhi (the apostole of peace) to massacre over 10,000 Hindus in the name of God... Indian Muslims are those who established a thick line in 1947 that they cannot live with Hindus who unfortunately happens to be their own ancestral brothers... India Muslims now have loosed their credibility of being a part of Nationalist attitude by publicly denying to accept National Anthem, National Song and denying Bharat as maata... when these things should have nothing to take with Hindus... but now slogans like 'Bharat maata ki Jai', 'Jana gana mana', 'vande maatram'... are all part of only Hindu culture... Indian Muslims are now a partners of Terrorism, and by and large declared Terrorism... most of their leaders shout publicly that every Muslim should be a terrorist with some logical background that terrorism should be for non-believers often purified through management language... Indian Muslims or any Muslim in this world (barring exceptions - 1 to 2 % of the population), has to re-establish their credibility that they are humans and worshipers of humanity first before unknown, unseen God who according to them hates, prepares fire of hell, prepared heaven with houris and virgins, asks people to murder... WHO WILL SOLVE THIS IGNORANCE OF HATRED IN THE NAME OF GOD - ONLY HINDUS... That is the reason Muslims have existed from over thousand years in India, and Hindus and others have been eliminated from Islamic lands... Historically proven, demography of today proves this... One should not enforce their own intolerance upon Hindus in the name of Babri and Gujarat Riots... They must go back into 1000 years of History which created Babri.. Kashmir.. and Godhra... One must talk of CAUSE and not EFFECT alone... The Effect on Hindus are much deeper than anything else in this world... The well integrated four Varnas - popularly known as Aryas - were divided and remains divided because of Invasion and Western Politics still ruling this nation... The ever free women of India were put under 'Ghunghat' for ever to hide their face from the Islamic looters... Brahmins had to impose child marriage among Hindus because their girls were picked away at an early age in the name of 'Virgin' given by God to Islamic rapers... British took advantage of this and teached the whole population that these are the raw culture of Hinduism... Unfortunate, the same Best Scientists, Philosophers, Pschologists and all failed to defeat Swami Vivekananda who put Hinduism on top of everything on their land... Read him, read Hinduism from its scripture (and not from the mouth of Dr. Zakir Naik)... and you will know that WORLD LIVES BECAUSE HINDUISM IS ALIVE EVEN IN ISLAM AND CHRISTIANITY... A person respecting his parents is Hinduism, A person loyarl to his Religous Guru is Hinduism, A person dedicated to his job is Hinduism, A person marrying and leading a stable family is Hinduism... A person getting spiritual in line with God is Hinduism... You may change the books, induce impurity in the name of God in those books... but the truth will ever remain... The world exists because of Hinduism and the world will exist only as long as Hinduism is alive - directly or indirectly.... ________________________________ From: M Javed To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Cc: sarai list Sent: Tuesday, May 5, 2009 5:38:01 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims Dear Kshmendra Who is an Indian Muslim? We need to answer this before we can answer your "...should they be thinking about using the Islamic flag..." Javed On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 5:19 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > QUOTE: > > It also carried drawings of two white and black flags, the former being the main flag of Holy Prophet Muhammad (Peace be Upon Him) and the latter his military standard. Even now, black-turbaned TNSM members carry the small white and black flags as they walk ahead of Sufi Mohammad. ...... UNQUOTE > > This quote is from an article on Maulana Sufi Mohammad written by Rahimullah Yusufzai. > http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=175825 > > No green flag. No crescent and star on it. > > The green flag with the crescent and star on it which is used by Indian Muslims has often caused misunderstandings. > > One recent example has been Simi Garewal talking about Pakistani Flags being flown by Indian Muslims. She apologised later for having mistaken the Islamic Flag of the Indian Muslims for the Pakistani Flag. > > The close resemblance between the 2 flags confused even Anupam Chakravartty, who inspite of video coverage from Times Now showing it to be a Pakistani Flag, insisted that what was flown in Assam with " sickle (sic) and star on green background is an islamic symbol" > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2009-April/018755.html > > In an earlier mail I had commented: > > """""" If this is factual, then the question arises for the Indian Muslims that should they be thinking about using the Islamic Flag without the Crescent and Star so that it does not appear to be close to being the flag of Pakistan? """""" > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2008-December/017016.html > > Just thinking aloud > > Kshmendra > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From c.anupam at gmail.com Wed May 6 10:54:29 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 10:54:29 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims In-Reply-To: <562330.29752.qm@web90404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <74892.42762.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <562330.29752.qm@web90404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <341380d00905052224o479c316fw3454a0457d8bc233@mail.gmail.com> dear chanchal national anthem is sung when you feel for your country. not out of force. please spare the national anthem at least from your rhetoric that sounds like ones that you get to read in the saffronised websites. at least be geniune in your critique. mugging up points from a propaganda site would not really help. regards anupam On 5/6/09, chanchal malviya wrote: > > Indian Muslims are those whose forefathers betrayed with their own base > foundation Hinduism - either out of fear or lust. > Indian Muslims are those who historically didn't play a major role in > Indian Independence, and rather took lead in Khilafat with Gandhi (the > apostole of peace) to massacre over 10,000 Hindus in the name of God... > Indian Muslims are those who established a thick line in 1947 that they > cannot live with Hindus who unfortunately happens to be their own ancestral > brothers... > India Muslims now have loosed their credibility of being a part of > Nationalist attitude by publicly denying to accept National Anthem, National > Song and denying Bharat as maata... when these things should have nothing to > take with Hindus... but now slogans like 'Bharat maata ki Jai', 'Jana gana > mana', 'vande maatram'... are all part of only Hindu culture... > Indian Muslims are now a partners of Terrorism, and by and large declared > Terrorism... most of their leaders shout publicly that every Muslim should > be a terrorist with some logical background that terrorism should be for > non-believers often purified through management language... > Indian Muslims or any Muslim in this world (barring exceptions - 1 to 2 % > of the population), has to re-establish their credibility that they are > humans and worshipers of humanity first before unknown, unseen God who > according to them hates, prepares fire of hell, prepared heaven with houris > and virgins, asks people to murder... > > WHO WILL SOLVE THIS IGNORANCE OF HATRED IN THE NAME OF GOD - ONLY HINDUS... > That is the reason Muslims have existed from over thousand years in India, > and Hindus and others have been eliminated from Islamic lands... > Historically proven, demography of today proves this... > > One should not enforce their own intolerance upon Hindus in the name of > Babri and Gujarat Riots... They must go back into 1000 years of History > which created Babri.. Kashmir.. and Godhra... One must talk of CAUSE and > not EFFECT alone... The Effect on Hindus are much deeper than anything else > in this world... > > The well integrated four Varnas - popularly known as Aryas - were divided > and remains divided because of Invasion and Western Politics still ruling > this nation... > The ever free women of India were put under 'Ghunghat' for ever to hide > their face from the Islamic looters... Brahmins had to impose child marriage > among Hindus because their girls were picked away at an early age in the > name of 'Virgin' given by God to Islamic rapers... British took advantage of > this and teached the whole population that these are the raw culture of > Hinduism... > > Unfortunate, the same Best Scientists, Philosophers, Pschologists and all > failed to defeat Swami Vivekananda who put Hinduism on top of everything on > their land... Read him, read Hinduism from its scripture (and not from the > mouth of Dr. Zakir Naik)... and you will know that WORLD LIVES BECAUSE > HINDUISM IS ALIVE EVEN IN ISLAM AND CHRISTIANITY... > > A person respecting his parents is Hinduism, A person loyarl to his > Religous Guru is Hinduism, A person dedicated to his job is Hinduism, A > person marrying and leading a stable family is Hinduism... A person getting > spiritual in line with God is Hinduism... > You may change the books, induce impurity in the name of God in those > books... but the truth will ever remain... The world exists because of > Hinduism and the world will exist only as long as Hinduism is alive - > directly or indirectly.... > > > > > ________________________________ > From: M Javed > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > Cc: sarai list > Sent: Tuesday, May 5, 2009 5:38:01 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims > > Dear Kshmendra > > Who is an Indian Muslim? > > We need to answer this before we can answer your "...should they be > thinking about using the Islamic flag..." > > Javed > > > > On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 5:19 PM, Kshmendra Kaul > wrote: > > > > QUOTE: > > > > It also carried drawings of two white and black flags, the former being > the main flag of Holy Prophet Muhammad (Peace be Upon Him) and the latter > his military standard. Even now, black-turbaned TNSM members carry the small > white and black flags as they walk ahead of Sufi Mohammad. ...... UNQUOTE > > > > This quote is from an article on Maulana Sufi Mohammad written by > Rahimullah Yusufzai. > > http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=175825 > > > > No green flag. No crescent and star on it. > > > > The green flag with the crescent and star on it which is used by Indian > Muslims has often caused misunderstandings. > > > > One recent example has been Simi Garewal talking about Pakistani Flags > being flown by Indian Muslims. She apologised later for having mistaken the > Islamic Flag of the Indian Muslims for the Pakistani Flag. > > > > The close resemblance between the 2 flags confused even Anupam > Chakravartty, who inspite of video coverage from Times Now showing it to be > a Pakistani Flag, insisted that what was flown in Assam with " sickle (sic) > and star on green background is an islamic symbol" > > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2009-April/018755.html > > > > In an earlier mail I had commented: > > > > """""" If this is factual, then the question arises for the Indian > Muslims that should they be thinking about using the Islamic Flag without > the Crescent and Star so that it does not appear to be close to being the > flag of Pakistan? """""" > > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2008-December/017016.html > > > > Just thinking aloud > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed May 6 11:19:01 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 11:19:01 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims In-Reply-To: References: <348364.48795.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <341380d00905050818h10fa58e9o71fae252a91a8a3f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70905052249g191c1affvd3eeb715832046ba@mail.gmail.com> Dear Shuddha , The Hindus use the Bhagwa as a matter of faith and not as a political ideology. Bhagwa has been used in our nation,Hindustan , since many centuries. It was used even during times of Mahabharta and it really does not justify your statement that Hindutva lobby was following Nepalese royals. It was unfortunate that we lost the only Hindu Kingdom , due to Communist influence and nefarious activities. The same communist Govt wanted the Army to induct criminals to be inducted in the Army ......and with the grace of God ......the communists lost out. I personally do not dislike the Green color . I love it . However i believe that when the Green is altered to prompt others to react , the reaction should not come as a surprise. God Bless Pawan On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 10:39 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > Dear All, Dear Jeebesh > > I have found this discussion on the shape of flags, affiliations and > ideological commitments, fascinating. I have the same interest in > flags that the writer Vladimir Nabakov had in butterflies. i think > they are even more beautiful when they are lifeless. > > Until not so long ago, the erstwhile Kingdom of Nepal was the only > 'Hindu' state in the world. And yet, I have no recollection of > 'Hindutva' enthusiasts in India being accused of being stooges of the > usually inebriated Nepali monarchy. I find this somewhat odd, and > incongruous. > > But, now that I come to think of it, the Nepali flag consists of two > near isoceles triangles. And the 'bhagwa dhvaj', or saffron flag, so > beloved of the bearers of the Hindutva ideal in India is usually also > flown as a single saffron isoceles triangle. Since such a great deal > is being made on this list about the correspondences between shapes > and colours, I thought I might add my own two bits on the surprising > similarity of the 'isoceles' triangle shape, as seen compared between > the Royal Nepali flag and the Hindutva flag. > > Now, though I am fascinated by flags, unfortunately, patrtiotism (or > the emotions that most flags conjure) is beyond my modest > intellectual reach. But I am sure that there are people on this list > who are, proud patriots, and who wear their Indian nationalism > (secular or otherwise) prominently on their sleeve. > > And, since flags, their shape, size, colour, geometry etc. matter a > great deal to patriots (they do not, to me, sneaky low-down anarchist > that I am, but I have heard that patriots are prepared to die for > these precious fragments of textile) then, to those that they do > matter, perhaps there would be no doubt (as borne out by the form of > flags) the Hindutva Held Constituency of this list could be best > described as the covert flag bearers of the (hopefully) erstwhile > Royalist Nepali agenda in Indian politics. > > I say this only because it makes as much sense to say this as it does > to read deep meanings into the flags sometime flown in some Muslim > neighbourhoods in different parts of India. No more, no less. > > On a different note altogether, It is my fervent hope that the > Hindutva Held constituency in India will follow the example set by > its mentors, the Royal House of Nepal, and take the honourable path > of auto-destruction, aided, like the late His Highness the Prince > Dipendra, by means of intoxication and a choice selection of > automatic weapons. > > I wait for that day, eagerly, so that the safforn flag of Hindutva, > lifeless and beautiful in death, would join my 'butterflag' > collection of extinct standards. > > best > > Shuddha > > > > > On 05-May-09, at 9:59 PM, Jeebesh wrote: > > > dear All, > > > > I do not understand how constantly the list members keep attacking the > > same entity called muslims and indian muslims. Well all attackers call > > themselves hindus. The viscousness of the attacks baffles me. If they > > had power and weapons they can do serious damage. > > > > On the other hand, i have not seen any person with so called "muslim > > name" attack a Hindu or Hinduism, on this list. So why does so called > > Hindus keep attacking muslims in this list. What kind of blood lust is > > this? > > > > Now days Hinduism is a fairly celebrated religion and thousands of > > publications and places of worship is a sure sign of that. Yet a weird > > sense of injured self seem to have justified all kind of rabble > > rousing. > > > > Being cautious of authoritarian organization is one thing, but to keep > > on attacking a group of people is appalling. > > > > warmly > > jeebesh > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Wed May 6 12:04:42 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 07:34:42 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70905052249g191c1affvd3eeb715832046ba@mail.gmail.com> References: <348364.48795.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <341380d00905050818h10fa58e9o71fae252a91a8a3f@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70905052249g191c1affvd3eeb715832046ba@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <65be9bf40905052334o384cd9e2r359391ae6e058e18@mail.gmail.com> There we go again....ladies and gentlemen!!! I'd say just like to say As-Salamu Alaykum ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/As-Salamu_Alaykum ) and move on :) Jai Hind taha From chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Wed May 6 12:11:41 2009 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com (chanchal malviya) Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 23:41:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims In-Reply-To: <341380d00905052224o479c316fw3454a0457d8bc233@mail.gmail.com> References: <74892.42762.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <562330.29752.qm@web90404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <341380d00905052224o479c316fw3454a0457d8bc233@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9276.14599.qm@web90406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dear Anupam, You are conflicting your own sentence... You said, national anthem is sung when you feel for your country... The direct meaning of this sentence is 'One will not sing the National Anthem if he do not feel for the Country' There is no question of force.... I never said that any anti-national should be forced to sing the Anthem... not all.. If Saffron is my color... let me understand what is your color.... Why was the Flag of India not completely white... If Saffron color is wrong, why it is there in the Flag at all... I wonder if you have ever told to the Terrorist that they have Greenized websites... I am sure you have never told so... Because you do not have answers to the Saffrons, whose area of operation are within their own country... and they have come up as powers to respond to them who are harming Humanity in India (eg Conversion program of Christian by buying through money and for humanitarian reason, infiltration of Crores of Bangladeshis, etc.).. Unfortunately, Saffrons has to do this because people like you supports them (as Congress, CPIM dos)... And fighting for the protection is Crime and rhetoric for you... doesn't matter.... ________________________________ From: anupam chakravartty To: sarai list Sent: Wednesday, May 6, 2009 10:54:29 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims dear chanchal national anthem is sung when you feel for your country. not out of force. please spare the national anthem at least from your rhetoric that sounds like ones that you get to read in the saffronised websites. at least be geniune in your critique. mugging up points from a propaganda site would not really help. regards anupam On 5/6/09, chanchal malviya wrote: > > Indian Muslims are those whose forefathers betrayed with their own base > foundation Hinduism - either out of fear or lust. > Indian Muslims are those who historically didn't play a major role in > Indian Independence, and rather took lead in Khilafat with Gandhi (the > apostole of peace) to massacre over 10,000 Hindus in the name of God... > Indian Muslims are those who established a thick line in 1947 that they > cannot live with Hindus who unfortunately happens to be their own ancestral > brothers... > India Muslims now have loosed their credibility of being a part of > Nationalist attitude by publicly denying to accept National Anthem, National > Song and denying Bharat as maata... when these things should have nothing to > take with Hindus... but now slogans like 'Bharat maata ki Jai', 'Jana gana > mana', 'vande maatram'... are all part of only Hindu culture... > Indian Muslims are now a partners of Terrorism, and by and large declared > Terrorism... most of their leaders shout publicly that every Muslim should > be a terrorist with some logical background that terrorism should be for > non-believers often purified through management language... > Indian Muslims or any Muslim in this world (barring exceptions - 1 to 2 % > of the population), has to re-establish their credibility that they are > humans and worshipers of humanity first before unknown, unseen God who > according to them hates, prepares fire of hell, prepared heaven with houris > and virgins, asks people to murder... > > WHO WILL SOLVE THIS IGNORANCE OF HATRED IN THE NAME OF GOD - ONLY HINDUS... > That is the reason Muslims have existed from over thousand years in India, > and Hindus and others have been eliminated from Islamic lands... > Historically proven, demography of today proves this... > > One should not enforce their own intolerance upon Hindus in the name of > Babri and Gujarat Riots... They must go back into 1000 years of History > which created Babri.. Kashmir.. and Godhra... One must talk of CAUSE and > not EFFECT alone... The Effect on Hindus are much deeper than anything else > in this world... > > The well integrated four Varnas - popularly known as Aryas - were divided > and remains divided because of Invasion and Western Politics still ruling > this nation... > The ever free women of India were put under 'Ghunghat' for ever to hide > their face from the Islamic looters... Brahmins had to impose child marriage > among Hindus because their girls were picked away at an early age in the > name of 'Virgin' given by God to Islamic rapers... British took advantage of > this and teached the whole population that these are the raw culture of > Hinduism... > > Unfortunate, the same Best Scientists, Philosophers, Pschologists and all > failed to defeat Swami Vivekananda who put Hinduism on top of everything on > their land... Read him, read Hinduism from its scripture (and not from the > mouth of Dr. Zakir Naik)... and you will know that WORLD LIVES BECAUSE > HINDUISM IS ALIVE EVEN IN ISLAM AND CHRISTIANITY... > > A person respecting his parents is Hinduism, A person loyarl to his > Religous Guru is Hinduism, A person dedicated to his job is Hinduism, A > person marrying and leading a stable family is Hinduism... A person getting > spiritual in line with God is Hinduism... > You may change the books, induce impurity in the name of God in those > books... but the truth will ever remain... The world exists because of > Hinduism and the world will exist only as long as Hinduism is alive - > directly or indirectly.... > > > > > ________________________________ > From: M Javed > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > Cc: sarai list > Sent: Tuesday, May 5, 2009 5:38:01 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims > > Dear Kshmendra > > Who is an Indian Muslim? > > We need to answer this before we can answer your "...should they be > thinking about using the Islamic flag..." > > Javed > > > > On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 5:19 PM, Kshmendra Kaul > wrote: > > > > QUOTE: > > > > It also carried drawings of two white and black flags, the former being > the main flag of Holy Prophet Muhammad (Peace be Upon Him) and the latter > his military standard. Even now, black-turbaned TNSM members carry the small > white and black flags as they walk ahead of Sufi Mohammad. ...... UNQUOTE > > > > This quote is from an article on Maulana Sufi Mohammad written by > Rahimullah Yusufzai. > > http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=175825 > > > > No green flag. No crescent and star on it. > > > > The green flag with the crescent and star on it which is used by Indian > Muslims has often caused misunderstandings. > > > > One recent example has been Simi Garewal talking about Pakistani Flags > being flown by Indian Muslims. She apologised later for having mistaken the > Islamic Flag of the Indian Muslims for the Pakistani Flag. > > > > The close resemblance between the 2 flags confused even Anupam > Chakravartty, who inspite of video coverage from Times Now showing it to be > a Pakistani Flag, insisted that what was flown in Assam with " sickle (sic) > and star on green background is an islamic symbol" > > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2009-April/018755.html > > > > In an earlier mail I had commented: > > > > """""" If this is factual, then the question arises for the Indian > Muslims that should they be thinking about using the Islamic Flag without > the Crescent and Star so that it does not appear to be close to being the > flag of Pakistan? """""" > > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2008-December/017016.html > > > > Just thinking aloud > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed May 6 12:22:32 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 12:22:32 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims In-Reply-To: <65be9bf40905052334o384cd9e2r359391ae6e058e18@mail.gmail.com> References: <348364.48795.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <341380d00905050818h10fa58e9o71fae252a91a8a3f@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70905052249g191c1affvd3eeb715832046ba@mail.gmail.com> <65be9bf40905052334o384cd9e2r359391ae6e058e18@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70905052352rc1eee48i5df325541c1f4684@mail.gmail.com> Hello Taha , Thank you for the link . It is very interesting explanation of As-Salamu Alaykum . However as you keep on saying let us "Move On " , you prefer to return , more intelligently and convert your ideas and still pretend to be a 'good boy'. Anyway as i move on now I would just like to say NamaskAr. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Namaste and move on. Let me understand the Indian variant first before adopting an Arabic..... Pawan On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 12:04 PM, Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com>wrote: > There we go again....ladies and gentlemen!!! > > I'd say just like to say As-Salamu Alaykum ( > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/As-Salamu_Alaykum ) and move on :) > > Jai Hind > > taha > From c.anupam at gmail.com Wed May 6 12:27:19 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 12:27:19 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims In-Reply-To: <9276.14599.qm@web90406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <74892.42762.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <562330.29752.qm@web90404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <341380d00905052224o479c316fw3454a0457d8bc233@mail.gmail.com> <9276.14599.qm@web90406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <341380d00905052357x1181d884m390e157d52f817bd@mail.gmail.com> Dear Chanchal, You are absolutely right. I do not think there is a conflict. One would love something only when one can feel. one becomes a hypocrite if he/she do not feel for the nation and sing the national anthem so that they can show off. doing something for its sake without involving yourself personally is not right. it is dishonest. one doesnt need your understanding of saffron and the hindu religion to know what this nation is. and for your kind information area of operation holds large amounts of black money being poured into temple funds from the foreign nations earned with fake immigration scams. you can go on and on about your version of deshbhakti by sitting comfortably in an AC room in front of computer and keep singing national anthem, while your country, your gods, your peace gets traded in the mindless communal politics. - anupam ------------------------------ *From:* anupam chakravartty *To:* sarai list *Sent:* Wednesday, May 6, 2009 10:54:29 AM > > *Subject:* Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims > > dear chanchal > > national anthem is sung when you feel for your country. not out of force. > please spare the national anthem at least from your rhetoric that sounds > like ones that you get to read in the saffronised websites. > > at least be geniune in your critique. mugging up points from a propaganda > site would not really help. > > regards > > anupam > > > On 5/6/09, chanchal malviya wrote: > > > > Indian Muslims are those whose forefathers betrayed with their own base > > foundation Hinduism - either out of fear or lust. > > Indian Muslims are those who historically didn't play a major role in > > Indian Independence, and rather took lead in Khilafat with Gandhi (the > > apostole of peace) to massacre over 10,000 Hindus in the name of God... > > Indian Muslims are those who established a thick line in 1947 that they > > cannot live with Hindus who unfortunately happens to be their own > ancestral > > brothers... > > India Muslims now have loosed their credibility of being a part of > > Nationalist attitude by publicly denying to accept National Anthem, > National > > Song and denying Bharat as maata... when these things should have nothing > to > > take with Hindus... but now slogans like 'Bharat maata ki Jai', 'Jana > gana > > mana', 'vande maatram'... are all part of only Hindu culture... > > Indian Muslims are now a partners of Terrorism, and by and large declared > > Terrorism... most of their leaders shout publicly that every Muslim > should > > be a terrorist with some logical background that terrorism should be for > > non-believers often purified through management language... > > Indian Muslims or any Muslim in this world (barring exceptions - 1 to 2 % > > of the population), has to re-establish their credibility that they are > > humans and worshipers of humanity first before unknown, unseen God who > > according to them hates, prepares fire of hell, prepared heaven with > houris > > and virgins, asks people to murder... > > > > WHO WILL SOLVE THIS IGNORANCE OF HATRED IN THE NAME OF GOD - ONLY > HINDUS... > > That is the reason Muslims have existed from over thousand years in > India, > > and Hindus and others have been eliminated from Islamic lands... > > Historically proven, demography of today proves this... > > > > One should not enforce their own intolerance upon Hindus in the name of > > Babri and Gujarat Riots... They must go back into 1000 years of History > > which created Babri.. Kashmir.. and Godhra... One must talk of CAUSE and > > not EFFECT alone... The Effect on Hindus are much deeper than anything > else > > in this world... > > > > The well integrated four Varnas - popularly known as Aryas - were divided > > and remains divided because of Invasion and Western Politics still ruling > > this nation... > > The ever free women of India were put under 'Ghunghat' for ever to hide > > their face from the Islamic looters... Brahmins had to impose child > marriage > > among Hindus because their girls were picked away at an early age in the > > name of 'Virgin' given by God to Islamic rapers... British took advantage > of > > this and teached the whole population that these are the raw culture of > > Hinduism... > > > > Unfortunate, the same Best Scientists, Philosophers, Pschologists and all > > failed to defeat Swami Vivekananda who put Hinduism on top of everything > on > > their land... Read him, read Hinduism from its scripture (and not from > the > > mouth of Dr. Zakir Naik)... and you will know that WORLD LIVES BECAUSE > > HINDUISM IS ALIVE EVEN IN ISLAM AND CHRISTIANITY... > > > > A person respecting his parents is Hinduism, A person loyarl to his > > Religous Guru is Hinduism, A person dedicated to his job is Hinduism, A > > person marrying and leading a stable family is Hinduism... A person > getting > > spiritual in line with God is Hinduism... > > You may change the books, induce impurity in the name of God in those > > books... but the truth will ever remain... The world exists because of > > Hinduism and the world will exist only as long as Hinduism is alive - > > directly or indirectly.... > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: M Javed > > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > > Cc: sarai list > > Sent: Tuesday, May 5, 2009 5:38:01 PM > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims > > > > Dear Kshmendra > > > > Who is an Indian Muslim? > > > > We need to answer this before we can answer your "...should they be > > thinking about using the Islamic flag..." > > > > Javed > > > > > > > > On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 5:19 PM, Kshmendra Kaul > > wrote: > > > > > > QUOTE: > > > > > > It also carried drawings of two white and black flags, the former being > > the main flag of Holy Prophet Muhammad (Peace be Upon Him) and the latter > > his military standard. Even now, black-turbaned TNSM members carry the > small > > white and black flags as they walk ahead of Sufi Mohammad. ...... UNQUOTE > > > > > > This quote is from an article on Maulana Sufi Mohammad written by > > Rahimullah Yusufzai. > > > http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=175825 > > > > > > No green flag. No crescent and star on it. > > > > > > The green flag with the crescent and star on it which is used by Indian > > Muslims has often caused misunderstandings. > > > > > > One recent example has been Simi Garewal talking about Pakistani Flags > > being flown by Indian Muslims. She apologised later for having mistaken > the > > Islamic Flag of the Indian Muslims for the Pakistani Flag. > > > > > > The close resemblance between the 2 flags confused even Anupam > > Chakravartty, who inspite of video coverage from Times Now showing it to > be > > a Pakistani Flag, insisted that what was flown in Assam with " sickle > (sic) > > and star on green background is an islamic symbol" > > > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2009-April/018755.html > > > > > > In an earlier mail I had commented: > > > > > > """""" If this is factual, then the question arises for the Indian > > Muslims that should they be thinking about using the Islamic Flag without > > the Crescent and Star so that it does not appear to be close to being the > > flag of Pakistan? """""" > > > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2008-December/017016.html > > > > > > Just thinking aloud > > > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > From aliens at dataone.in Wed May 6 12:45:28 2009 From: aliens at dataone.in (bipin) Date: Wed, 06 May 2009 12:45:28 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims References: <74892.42762.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <562330.29752.qm@web90404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <341380d00905052224o479c316fw3454a0457d8bc233@mail.gmail.com> <9276.14599.qm@web90406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <341380d00905052357x1181d884m390e157d52f817bd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <00f001c9ce1a$6f9224d0$0201a8c0@limo> Black money poured into the temple funds, just it is poured in the mosque funds also and terrorist activity also. But you are keeping mum on this part. Your argument is only for that matter goes against Hindu only. ----- Original Message ----- From: "anupam chakravartty" To: "sarai list" Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2009 12:27 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims > Dear Chanchal, > > You are absolutely right. I do not think there is a conflict. One would > love > something only when one can feel. one becomes a hypocrite if he/she do not > feel for the nation and sing the national anthem so that they can show > off. > doing something for its sake without involving yourself personally is not > right. it is dishonest. > > one doesnt need your understanding of saffron and the hindu religion to > know > what this nation is. and for your kind information area of operation holds > large amounts of black money being poured into temple funds from the > foreign > nations earned with fake immigration scams. you can go on and on about > your > version of deshbhakti by sitting comfortably in an AC room in front of > computer and keep singing national anthem, while your country, your gods, > your peace gets traded in the mindless communal politics. > > - anupam > ------------------------------ > *From:* anupam chakravartty > *To:* sarai list > *Sent:* Wednesday, May 6, 2009 10:54:29 AM > >> >> *Subject:* Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims >> >> dear chanchal >> >> national anthem is sung when you feel for your country. not out of force. >> please spare the national anthem at least from your rhetoric that sounds >> like ones that you get to read in the saffronised websites. >> >> at least be geniune in your critique. mugging up points from a propaganda >> site would not really help. >> >> regards >> >> anupam >> >> >> On 5/6/09, chanchal malviya wrote: >> > >> > Indian Muslims are those whose forefathers betrayed with their own base >> > foundation Hinduism - either out of fear or lust. >> > Indian Muslims are those who historically didn't play a major role in >> > Indian Independence, and rather took lead in Khilafat with Gandhi (the >> > apostole of peace) to massacre over 10,000 Hindus in the name of God... >> > Indian Muslims are those who established a thick line in 1947 that they >> > cannot live with Hindus who unfortunately happens to be their own >> ancestral >> > brothers... >> > India Muslims now have loosed their credibility of being a part of >> > Nationalist attitude by publicly denying to accept National Anthem, >> National >> > Song and denying Bharat as maata... when these things should have >> > nothing >> to >> > take with Hindus... but now slogans like 'Bharat maata ki Jai', 'Jana >> gana >> > mana', 'vande maatram'... are all part of only Hindu culture... >> > Indian Muslims are now a partners of Terrorism, and by and large >> > declared >> > Terrorism... most of their leaders shout publicly that every Muslim >> should >> > be a terrorist with some logical background that terrorism should be >> > for >> > non-believers often purified through management language... >> > Indian Muslims or any Muslim in this world (barring exceptions - 1 to 2 >> > % >> > of the population), has to re-establish their credibility that they are >> > humans and worshipers of humanity first before unknown, unseen God who >> > according to them hates, prepares fire of hell, prepared heaven with >> houris >> > and virgins, asks people to murder... >> > >> > WHO WILL SOLVE THIS IGNORANCE OF HATRED IN THE NAME OF GOD - ONLY >> HINDUS... >> > That is the reason Muslims have existed from over thousand years in >> India, >> > and Hindus and others have been eliminated from Islamic lands... >> > Historically proven, demography of today proves this... >> > >> > One should not enforce their own intolerance upon Hindus in the name of >> > Babri and Gujarat Riots... They must go back into 1000 years of History >> > which created Babri.. Kashmir.. and Godhra... One must talk of CAUSE >> > and >> > not EFFECT alone... The Effect on Hindus are much deeper than anything >> else >> > in this world... >> > >> > The well integrated four Varnas - popularly known as Aryas - were >> > divided >> > and remains divided because of Invasion and Western Politics still >> > ruling >> > this nation... >> > The ever free women of India were put under 'Ghunghat' for ever to hide >> > their face from the Islamic looters... Brahmins had to impose child >> marriage >> > among Hindus because their girls were picked away at an early age in >> > the >> > name of 'Virgin' given by God to Islamic rapers... British took >> > advantage >> of >> > this and teached the whole population that these are the raw culture of >> > Hinduism... >> > >> > Unfortunate, the same Best Scientists, Philosophers, Pschologists and >> > all >> > failed to defeat Swami Vivekananda who put Hinduism on top of >> > everything >> on >> > their land... Read him, read Hinduism from its scripture (and not from >> the >> > mouth of Dr. Zakir Naik)... and you will know that WORLD LIVES BECAUSE >> > HINDUISM IS ALIVE EVEN IN ISLAM AND CHRISTIANITY... >> > >> > A person respecting his parents is Hinduism, A person loyarl to his >> > Religous Guru is Hinduism, A person dedicated to his job is Hinduism, A >> > person marrying and leading a stable family is Hinduism... A person >> getting >> > spiritual in line with God is Hinduism... >> > You may change the books, induce impurity in the name of God in those >> > books... but the truth will ever remain... The world exists because of >> > Hinduism and the world will exist only as long as Hinduism is alive - >> > directly or indirectly.... >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > ________________________________ >> > From: M Javed >> > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com >> > Cc: sarai list >> > Sent: Tuesday, May 5, 2009 5:38:01 PM >> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims >> > >> > Dear Kshmendra >> > >> > Who is an Indian Muslim? >> > >> > We need to answer this before we can answer your "...should they be >> > thinking about using the Islamic flag..." >> > >> > Javed >> > >> > >> > >> > On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 5:19 PM, Kshmendra Kaul >> > >> > wrote: >> > > >> > > QUOTE: >> > > >> > > It also carried drawings of two white and black flags, the former >> > > being >> > the main flag of Holy Prophet Muhammad (Peace be Upon Him) and the >> > latter >> > his military standard. Even now, black-turbaned TNSM members carry the >> small >> > white and black flags as they walk ahead of Sufi Mohammad. ...... >> > UNQUOTE >> > > >> > > This quote is from an article on Maulana Sufi Mohammad written by >> > Rahimullah Yusufzai. >> > > http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=175825 >> > > >> > > No green flag. No crescent and star on it. >> > > >> > > The green flag with the crescent and star on it which is used by >> > > Indian >> > Muslims has often caused misunderstandings. >> > > >> > > One recent example has been Simi Garewal talking about Pakistani >> > > Flags >> > being flown by Indian Muslims. She apologised later for having mistaken >> the >> > Islamic Flag of the Indian Muslims for the Pakistani Flag. >> > > >> > > The close resemblance between the 2 flags confused even Anupam >> > Chakravartty, who inspite of video coverage from Times Now showing it >> > to >> be >> > a Pakistani Flag, insisted that what was flown in Assam with " sickle >> (sic) >> > and star on green background is an islamic symbol" >> > > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2009-April/018755.html >> > > >> > > In an earlier mail I had commented: >> > > >> > > """""" If this is factual, then the question arises for the Indian >> > Muslims that should they be thinking about using the Islamic Flag >> > without >> > the Crescent and Star so that it does not appear to be close to being >> > the >> > flag of Pakistan? """""" >> > > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2008-December/017016.html >> > > >> > > Just thinking aloud >> > > >> > > Kshmendra >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > _________________________________________ >> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > > Critiques & Collaborations >> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > > List archive: >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: >> > >> > >> > >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From aliens at dataone.in Wed May 6 12:46:10 2009 From: aliens at dataone.in (bipin) Date: Wed, 06 May 2009 12:46:10 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims Message-ID: <00f901c9ce1a$88cbd0e0$0201a8c0@limo> Dear Chanchal, You are right. So called secular were never interested in improving the standard of living of minority, but they want to play with them only for their vote bank and person like Anupam comes under influence of them. In India, I think, who speak for or create show to speak for minority is secular and who speak for majority is communal. This is the definition of secularism prevailing in India. The real secularism is to give equal respect and treatment to all the religions (dharma). But, what is religion or what is Dharma? It is very complicated question. The real religion or dharma is the work you do honestly and sincerely allotted to you. For Ex. You have to take care of your new born child and make him/her self sufficient by giving good culture, education, discipline, fighting spirit etc. Instead of this if you remain in the activities like prayer in temples/mosque and devote the time after god only is not the real dharma you are adopting. You carry on your duty sincerely and honestly you have to do at the different stages of life is the real dharma or religion. thanks BIPIN ----- Original Message ----- From: "chanchal malviya" To: "anupam chakravartty" ; "sarai list" Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2009 12:11 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims > Dear Anupam, > > You are conflicting your own sentence... You said, national anthem is sung when you feel for your country... > The direct meaning of this sentence is 'One will not sing the National Anthem if he do not feel for the Country' > > There is no question of force.... I never said that any anti-national should be forced to sing the Anthem... not all.. > > If Saffron is my color... let me understand what is your color.... Why was the Flag of India not completely white... If Saffron color is wrong, why it is there in the Flag at all... I wonder if you have ever told to the Terrorist that they have Greenized websites... I am sure you have never told so... > > Because you do not have answers to the Saffrons, whose area of operation are within their own country... and they have come up as powers to respond to them who are harming Humanity in India (eg Conversion program of Christian by buying through money and for humanitarian reason, infiltration of Crores of Bangladeshis, etc.).. Unfortunately, Saffrons has to do this because people like you supports them (as Congress, CPIM dos)... And fighting for the protection is Crime and rhetoric for you... doesn't matter.... > > > > > ________________________________ > From: anupam chakravartty > To: sarai list > Sent: Wednesday, May 6, 2009 10:54:29 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims > > dear chanchal > > national anthem is sung when you feel for your country. not out of force. > please spare the national anthem at least from your rhetoric that sounds > like ones that you get to read in the saffronised websites. > > at least be geniune in your critique. mugging up points from a propaganda > site would not really help. > > regards > > anupam > > > On 5/6/09, chanchal malviya wrote: >> >> Indian Muslims are those whose forefathers betrayed with their own base >> foundation Hinduism - either out of fear or lust. >> Indian Muslims are those who historically didn't play a major role in >> Indian Independence, and rather took lead in Khilafat with Gandhi (the >> apostole of peace) to massacre over 10,000 Hindus in the name of God... >> Indian Muslims are those who established a thick line in 1947 that they >> cannot live with Hindus who unfortunately happens to be their own ancestral >> brothers... >> India Muslims now have loosed their credibility of being a part of >> Nationalist attitude by publicly denying to accept National Anthem, National >> Song and denying Bharat as maata... when these things should have nothing to >> take with Hindus... but now slogans like 'Bharat maata ki Jai', 'Jana gana >> mana', 'vande maatram'... are all part of only Hindu culture... >> Indian Muslims are now a partners of Terrorism, and by and large declared >> Terrorism... most of their leaders shout publicly that every Muslim should >> be a terrorist with some logical background that terrorism should be for >> non-believers often purified through management language... >> Indian Muslims or any Muslim in this world (barring exceptions - 1 to 2 % >> of the population), has to re-establish their credibility that they are >> humans and worshipers of humanity first before unknown, unseen God who >> according to them hates, prepares fire of hell, prepared heaven with houris >> and virgins, asks people to murder... >> >> WHO WILL SOLVE THIS IGNORANCE OF HATRED IN THE NAME OF GOD - ONLY HINDUS... >> That is the reason Muslims have existed from over thousand years in India, >> and Hindus and others have been eliminated from Islamic lands... >> Historically proven, demography of today proves this... >> >> One should not enforce their own intolerance upon Hindus in the name of >> Babri and Gujarat Riots... They must go back into 1000 years of History >> which created Babri.. Kashmir.. and Godhra... One must talk of CAUSE and >> not EFFECT alone... The Effect on Hindus are much deeper than anything else >> in this world... >> >> The well integrated four Varnas - popularly known as Aryas - were divided >> and remains divided because of Invasion and Western Politics still ruling >> this nation... >> The ever free women of India were put under 'Ghunghat' for ever to hide >> their face from the Islamic looters... Brahmins had to impose child marriage >> among Hindus because their girls were picked away at an early age in the >> name of 'Virgin' given by God to Islamic rapers... British took advantage of >> this and teached the whole population that these are the raw culture of >> Hinduism... >> >> Unfortunate, the same Best Scientists, Philosophers, Pschologists and all >> failed to defeat Swami Vivekananda who put Hinduism on top of everything on >> their land... Read him, read Hinduism from its scripture (and not from the >> mouth of Dr. Zakir Naik)... and you will know that WORLD LIVES BECAUSE >> HINDUISM IS ALIVE EVEN IN ISLAM AND CHRISTIANITY... >> >> A person respecting his parents is Hinduism, A person loyarl to his >> Religous Guru is Hinduism, A person dedicated to his job is Hinduism, A >> person marrying and leading a stable family is Hinduism... A person getting >> spiritual in line with God is Hinduism... >> You may change the books, induce impurity in the name of God in those >> books... but the truth will ever remain... The world exists because of >> Hinduism and the world will exist only as long as Hinduism is alive - >> directly or indirectly.... >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: M Javed >> To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com >> Cc: sarai list >> Sent: Tuesday, May 5, 2009 5:38:01 PM >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims >> >> Dear Kshmendra >> >> Who is an Indian Muslim? >> >> We need to answer this before we can answer your "...should they be >> thinking about using the Islamic flag..." >> >> Javed >> >> >> >> On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 5:19 PM, Kshmendra Kaul >> wrote: >> > >> > QUOTE: >> > >> > It also carried drawings of two white and black flags, the former being >> the main flag of Holy Prophet Muhammad (Peace be Upon Him) and the latter >> his military standard. Even now, black-turbaned TNSM members carry the small >> white and black flags as they walk ahead of Sufi Mohammad. ...... UNQUOTE >> > >> > This quote is from an article on Maulana Sufi Mohammad written by >> Rahimullah Yusufzai. >> > http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=175825 >> > >> > No green flag. No crescent and star on it. >> > >> > The green flag with the crescent and star on it which is used by Indian >> Muslims has often caused misunderstandings. >> > >> > One recent example has been Simi Garewal talking about Pakistani Flags >> being flown by Indian Muslims. She apologised later for having mistaken the >> Islamic Flag of the Indian Muslims for the Pakistani Flag. >> > >> > The close resemblance between the 2 flags confused even Anupam >> Chakravartty, who inspite of video coverage from Times Now showing it to be >> a Pakistani Flag, insisted that what was flown in Assam with " sickle (sic) >> and star on green background is an islamic symbol" >> > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2009-April/018755.html >> > >> > In an earlier mail I had commented: >> > >> > """""" If this is factual, then the question arises for the Indian >> Muslims that should they be thinking about using the Islamic Flag without >> the Crescent and Star so that it does not appear to be close to being the >> flag of Pakistan? """""" >> > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2008-December/017016.html >> > >> > Just thinking aloud >> > >> > Kshmendra >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From c.anupam at gmail.com Wed May 6 12:50:25 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 12:50:25 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims In-Reply-To: <341380d00905060020u48205ec5xd135391b929310bb@mail.gmail.com> References: <74892.42762.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <562330.29752.qm@web90404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <341380d00905052224o479c316fw3454a0457d8bc233@mail.gmail.com> <9276.14599.qm@web90406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <341380d00905052357x1181d884m390e157d52f817bd@mail.gmail.com> <00f001c9ce1a$6f9224d0$0201a8c0@limo> <341380d00905060020u48205ec5xd135391b929310bb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00905060020j6696885avaa72653f8a00e29@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: anupam chakravartty Date: May 6, 2009 12:50 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims To: bipin dear bipin, i think you missed out on the thread. read what chanchal has to say and then read my reply. i have no intentions to appease one particular community. -anupam On 5/6/09, bipin wrote: > Black money poured into the temple funds, just it is poured in the mosque > funds also and terrorist activity also. > > But you are keeping mum on this part. Your argument is only for that matter > goes against Hindu only. > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "anupam chakravartty" < > c.anupam at gmail.com> > To: "sarai list" > Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2009 12:27 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims > > > Dear Chanchal, >> >> You are absolutely right. I do not think there is a conflict. One would >> love >> something only when one can feel. one becomes a hypocrite if he/she do not >> feel for the nation and sing the national anthem so that they can show >> off. >> doing something for its sake without involving yourself personally is not >> right. it is dishonest. >> >> one doesnt need your understanding of saffron and the hindu religion to >> know >> what this nation is. and for your kind information area of operation holds >> large amounts of black money being poured into temple funds from the >> foreign >> nations earned with fake immigration scams. you can go on and on about >> your >> version of deshbhakti by sitting comfortably in an AC room in front of >> computer and keep singing national anthem, while your country, your gods, >> your peace gets traded in the mindless communal politics. >> >> - anupam >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* anupam chakravartty >> *To:* sarai list >> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 6, 2009 10:54:29 AM >> >> >>> *Subject:* Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims >>> >>> dear chanchal >>> >>> national anthem is sung when you feel for your country. not out of force. >>> please spare the national anthem at least from your rhetoric that sounds >>> like ones that you get to read in the saffronised websites. >>> >>> at least be geniune in your critique. mugging up points from a propaganda >>> site would not really help. >>> >>> regards >>> >>> anupam >>> >>> >>> On 5/6/09, chanchal malviya wrote: >>> > >>> > Indian Muslims are those whose forefathers betrayed with their own base >>> > foundation Hinduism - either out of fear or lust. >>> > Indian Muslims are those who historically didn't play a major role in >>> > Indian Independence, and rather took lead in Khilafat with Gandhi (the >>> > apostole of peace) to massacre over 10,000 Hindus in the name of God... >>> > Indian Muslims are those who established a thick line in 1947 that they >>> > cannot live with Hindus who unfortunately happens to be their own >>> ancestral >>> > brothers... >>> > India Muslims now have loosed their credibility of being a part of >>> > Nationalist attitude by publicly denying to accept National Anthem, >>> National >>> > Song and denying Bharat as maata... when these things should have > >>> nothing >>> to >>> > take with Hindus... but now slogans like 'Bharat maata ki Jai', 'Jana >>> gana >>> > mana', 'vande maatram'... are all part of only Hindu culture... >>> > Indian Muslims are now a partners of Terrorism, and by and large > >>> declared >>> > Terrorism... most of their leaders shout publicly that every Muslim >>> should >>> > be a terrorist with some logical background that terrorism should be > >>> for >>> > non-believers often purified through management language... >>> > Indian Muslims or any Muslim in this world (barring exceptions - 1 to 2 >>> > % >>> > of the population), has to re-establish their credibility that they are >>> > humans and worshipers of humanity first before unknown, unseen God who >>> > according to them hates, prepares fire of hell, prepared heaven with >>> houris >>> > and virgins, asks people to murder... >>> > >>> > WHO WILL SOLVE THIS IGNORANCE OF HATRED IN THE NAME OF GOD - ONLY >>> HINDUS... >>> > That is the reason Muslims have existed from over thousand years in >>> India, >>> > and Hindus and others have been eliminated from Islamic lands... >>> > Historically proven, demography of today proves this... >>> > >>> > One should not enforce their own intolerance upon Hindus in the name of >>> > Babri and Gujarat Riots... They must go back into 1000 years of History >>> > which created Babri.. Kashmir.. and Godhra... One must talk of CAUSE > >>> and >>> > not EFFECT alone... The Effect on Hindus are much deeper than anything >>> else >>> > in this world... >>> > >>> > The well integrated four Varnas - popularly known as Aryas - were > >>> divided >>> > and remains divided because of Invasion and Western Politics still > >>> ruling >>> > this nation... >>> > The ever free women of India were put under 'Ghunghat' for ever to hide >>> > their face from the Islamic looters... Brahmins had to impose child >>> marriage >>> > among Hindus because their girls were picked away at an early age in > >>> the >>> > name of 'Virgin' given by God to Islamic rapers... British took > >>> advantage >>> of >>> > this and teached the whole population that these are the raw culture of >>> > Hinduism... >>> > >>> > Unfortunate, the same Best Scientists, Philosophers, Pschologists and > >>> all >>> > failed to defeat Swami Vivekananda who put Hinduism on top of > >>> everything >>> on >>> > their land... Read him, read Hinduism from its scripture (and not from >>> the >>> > mouth of Dr. Zakir Naik)... and you will know that WORLD LIVES BECAUSE >>> > HINDUISM IS ALIVE EVEN IN ISLAM AND CHRISTIANITY... >>> > >>> > A person respecting his parents is Hinduism, A person loyarl to his >>> > Religous Guru is Hinduism, A person dedicated to his job is Hinduism, A >>> > person marrying and leading a stable family is Hinduism... A person >>> getting >>> > spiritual in line with God is Hinduism... >>> > You may change the books, induce impurity in the name of God in those >>> > books... but the truth will ever remain... The world exists because of >>> > Hinduism and the world will exist only as long as Hinduism is alive - >>> > directly or indirectly.... >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > ________________________________ >>> > From: M Javed >>> > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com >>> > Cc: sarai list >>> > Sent: Tuesday, May 5, 2009 5:38:01 PM >>> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims >>> > >>> > Dear Kshmendra >>> > >>> > Who is an Indian Muslim? >>> > >>> > We need to answer this before we can answer your "...should they be >>> > thinking about using the Islamic flag..." >>> > >>> > Javed >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 5:19 PM, Kshmendra Kaul > < >>> kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com> >>> > wrote: >>> > > >>> > > QUOTE: >>> > > >>> > > It also carried drawings of two white and black flags, the former > > >>> being >>> > the main flag of Holy Prophet Muhammad (Peace be Upon Him) and the > >>> latter >>> > his military standard. Even now, black-turbaned TNSM members carry the >>> small >>> > white and black flags as they walk ahead of Sufi Mohammad. ...... > >>> UNQUOTE >>> > > >>> > > This quote is from an article on Maulana Sufi Mohammad written by >>> > Rahimullah Yusufzai. >>> > > http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=175825 >>> > > >>> > > No green flag. No crescent and star on it. >>> > > >>> > > The green flag with the crescent and star on it which is used by > > >>> Indian >>> > Muslims has often caused misunderstandings. >>> > > >>> > > One recent example has been Simi Garewal talking about Pakistani > > >>> Flags >>> > being flown by Indian Muslims. She apologised later for having mistaken >>> the >>> > Islamic Flag of the Indian Muslims for the Pakistani Flag. >>> > > >>> > > The close resemblance between the 2 flags confused even Anupam >>> > Chakravartty, who inspite of video coverage from Times Now showing it > >>> to >>> be >>> > a Pakistani Flag, insisted that what was flown in Assam with " sickle >>> (sic) >>> > and star on green background is an islamic symbol" >>> > > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2009-April/018755.html >>> > > >>> > > In an earlier mail I had commented: >>> > > >>> > > """""" If this is factual, then the question arises for the Indian >>> > Muslims that should they be thinking about using the Islamic Flag > >>> without >>> > the Crescent and Star so that it does not appear to be close to being > >>> the >>> > flag of Pakistan? """""" >>> > > >>> http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2008-December/017016.html >>> > > >>> > > Just thinking aloud >>> > > >>> > > Kshmendra >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > _________________________________________ >>> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> > > Critiques & Collaborations >>> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> > subscribe in the subject header. >>> > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> > > List archive: >>> > _________________________________________ >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> > Critiques & Collaborations >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> > subscribe in the subject header. >>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> > List archive: >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > _________________________________________ >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> > Critiques & Collaborations >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> > subscribe in the subject header. >>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> > List archive: >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >>> >>> >>> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Wed May 6 12:59:24 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 08:29:24 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] MNIC: Parliament Questions - 14 Message-ID: <65be9bf40905060029l549f44bfl1113534709ecea25@mail.gmail.com> http://164.100.47.132/psearch/QResult13.aspx?qref=17407 GOVERNMENT OF INDIA MINISTRY OF LAW , JUSTICE AND COMPANY AFFAIRS LOK SABHA UNSTARRED QUESTION NO 5102 ANSWERED ON 21.12.2000 ISSUING OF PHOTO IDENTITY CARDS IN ORISSA 5102 . Shri BHARTRUHARI MAHTAB (a) the number of voters in Orissa; (b) the number of voters who have been issued photo identity cards in Orissa; ( (c) whether the Union Government have released 50% of the total cost incurred by Orissa for the purpose; and (d) if so, the details thereof? ANSWER MINISTER OF LAW, JUSTICE & COMPANY AFFAIRS AND SHIPPING (SHRI ARUN JAITLEY) (a) & (b): The Election Commission has informed that as per the latest report received from the Chief Electoral Officer, Orissa, the total number of voters in Orissa is 2,41,72,899 and the number of persons issued with defect-free Photo Identity Cards is 1,81,88,207. (c) : Yes, Sir. The Union Government has released provisional advance payments in excess of the 50% of the total expenditure incurred by the State Government of Orissa for the purpose of preparation of Photo Identity Cards, upto the financial year 1999-2000. (d) : The State Government of Orissa has, since 1994-95, been allowed an on-account advance payment of Rs. 17,75,00,244/- as Government of India`s share of expenditure likely to be incurred on preparation of Photo Identity Cards. The audit certificates issued by the State Accountant General, for the years 1994-95 to 1997-98 indicate that the Government of India`s share of the expenditure incurred on this account during the said years is Rs. 15,69,32,899/-. The provisional figures of the Government of India`s share of the expenditure for the years 1998-99 and 1999-2000 as received from the State Government do not indicate any expenditure having been incurred on this account. Thus, till 1999-2000, the State Government of Orissa was having an unutilized amount of Rs. 2,05,67,345/- of the Government of India`s share of expenditure on preparation of Photo Identity Cards. From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Wed May 6 13:07:49 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 08:37:49 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Low voter turnout: Smart card a smart solution? Message-ID: <65be9bf40905060037l47597227h71d229f76a333d4d@mail.gmail.com> http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Cities/Low-voter-turnout-Smart-card-a-smart-solution/articleshow/4469680.cms Low voter turnout: Smart card a smart solution? 1 May 2009, 0407 hrs IST, Ramu Bhagwat, TNN NAGPUR: With voting in the third phase over on Thursday, the fate of candidates contesting from all 48 seats in Maharashtra now hangs in the balance. But the lower voter turnout of less than 44 per cent in Mumbai in line with the trend from the first phase has once again put all political parties in a quandary. BJP's prime ministerial candidate L K Advani has called for amending the Constitution to fix the term for legislatures, making voting compulsory and simultaneous elections of the Lok Sabha and state assemblies as steps to get over the problem of dwindling voter numbers. A cross-section of IT professionals from the city have voted for a software solution, something like a smart card as the best way out to get around the problem. Incidentally, reports from Gujarat said Advani and his wife Kamla had to do some booth hopping before casting their names in the voter list. They could not vote in Gandhinagar, from where the BJP veteran is contesting, as their names were not in the voters' list and there after the delimitation exercise. They could finally cast vote in Shahpur in the Ahmedabad (West) Lok Sabha constituency, miles away from Gandhinagar. "Searching for the allotted polling station, finding the name in the list are daunting tasks that put off the voter from venturing out on an otherwise public holiday especially during extreme weather conditions. A smart card that can be integrated with national security requirements, a ration card, vital data a multi-purpose card with unique number that can be used from anywhere in the country is the need of the hour. IT can play a big role in this to make voting a more friendly exercise," said Amitabh Khanna, president, Vidarbha Association of Software Exporters. Talking to ToI he said all this would entail huge networking and expediter. But he was sure it would be worth exploring. In fact such a device could subsequently reduce recurring cost of conducting the election exercise. Networking wizard Amrit Narayan Prasad agreed that an IT solution could certainly boost the sagging voter turnout by at least 20 per cent as voter would find it easy to cast his choice from anywhere helping those touring out on the polling day. But he felt the current low Turnout was more an indicator of the growing pessimism towards political parties and leaders among all sections of the Indian society. "They don't keep promises," he explained but agreed that a voter-friendly IT solution could be worked out and the Election Commission of India should think on these lines as a long-term solution. Anand Garodia, director of city-based Leansoft Solutions said a smart card for voting could increase voting percentage and also help security and other requirements. Such a common card for every citizen can be developed though cost involved could be enormous. But the benefits could be worth it," said Garodia. From yasir.media at gmail.com Wed May 6 13:14:38 2009 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?windows-1256?B?eWFzaXIgfu3HINPR?=) Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 12:44:38 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims In-Reply-To: <562330.29752.qm@web90404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <74892.42762.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <562330.29752.qm@web90404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5af37bb0905060044u117f2486q9efc274d2ba066a5@mail.gmail.com> [satire] clap clap clap clap thanks. what a balanced view you have written. that was very enlightening as hinduism is/out to be. because i had thought hinduism was the hari krishnas, kamasutras, ajantas, temple prostitution and naked fakirs. . in addition to the baniyas fleecing people and tribals dancing around fires. and who wants to wait for houris anyway. when you have the jantar mantar. i like saffron. we use it in cooking. and we have it when we return from bombing the americans. as you predicted rightly, hindus are next as youve gotten a taste. ie if you harrass the locals too much and we start getting complaints, we are coming from across the northwest as is the custom for a a few thousand years. what makes u even think you can win or even hold out for one second. namaste stay safe On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 9:01 AM, chanchal malviya wrote: > Indian Muslims are those whose forefathers betrayed with their own base > foundation Hinduism - either out of fear or lust. > Indian Muslims are those who historically didn't play a major role in > Indian Independence, and rather took lead in Khilafat with Gandhi (the > apostole of peace) to massacre over 10,000 Hindus in the name of God... > Indian Muslims are those who established a thick line in 1947 that they > cannot live with Hindus who unfortunately happens to be their own ancestral > brothers... > India Muslims now have loosed their credibility of being a part of > Nationalist attitude by publicly denying to accept National Anthem, National > Song and denying Bharat as maata... when these things should have nothing to > take with Hindus... but now slogans like 'Bharat maata ki Jai', 'Jana gana > mana', 'vande maatram'... are all part of only Hindu culture... > Indian Muslims are now a partners of Terrorism, and by and large declared > Terrorism... most of their leaders shout publicly that every Muslim should > be a terrorist with some logical background that terrorism should be for > non-believers often purified through management language... > Indian Muslims or any Muslim in this world (barring exceptions - 1 to 2 % > of the population), has to re-establish their credibility that they are > humans and worshipers of humanity first before unknown, unseen God who > according to them hates, prepares fire of hell, prepared heaven with houris > and virgins, asks people to murder... > > WHO WILL SOLVE THIS IGNORANCE OF HATRED IN THE NAME OF GOD - ONLY HINDUS... > That is the reason Muslims have existed from over thousand years in India, > and Hindus and others have been eliminated from Islamic lands... > Historically proven, demography of today proves this... > > One should not enforce their own intolerance upon Hindus in the name of > Babri and Gujarat Riots... They must go back into 1000 years of History > which created Babri.. Kashmir.. and Godhra... One must talk of CAUSE and > not EFFECT alone... The Effect on Hindus are much deeper than anything else > in this world... > > The well integrated four Varnas - popularly known as Aryas - were divided > and remains divided because of Invasion and Western Politics still ruling > this nation... > The ever free women of India were put under 'Ghunghat' for ever to hide > their face from the Islamic looters... Brahmins had to impose child marriage > among Hindus because their girls were picked away at an early age in the > name of 'Virgin' given by God to Islamic rapers... British took advantage of > this and teached the whole population that these are the raw culture of > Hinduism... > > Unfortunate, the same Best Scientists, Philosophers, Pschologists and all > failed to defeat Swami Vivekananda who put Hinduism on top of everything on > their land... Read him, read Hinduism from its scripture (and not from the > mouth of Dr. Zakir Naik)... and you will know that WORLD LIVES BECAUSE > HINDUISM IS ALIVE EVEN IN ISLAM AND CHRISTIANITY... > > A person respecting his parents is Hinduism, A person loyarl to his > Religous Guru is Hinduism, A person dedicated to his job is Hinduism, A > person marrying and leading a stable family is Hinduism... A person getting > spiritual in line with God is Hinduism... > You may change the books, induce impurity in the name of God in those > books... but the truth will ever remain... The world exists because of > Hinduism and the world will exist only as long as Hinduism is alive - > directly or indirectly.... > > > > > ________________________________ > From: M Javed > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > Cc: sarai list > Sent: Tuesday, May 5, 2009 5:38:01 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims > > Dear Kshmendra > > Who is an Indian Muslim? > > We need to answer this before we can answer your "...should they be > thinking about using the Islamic flag..." > > Javed > > > > On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 5:19 PM, Kshmendra Kaul > wrote: > > > > QUOTE: > > > > It also carried drawings of two white and black flags, the former being > the main flag of Holy Prophet Muhammad (Peace be Upon Him) and the latter > his military standard. Even now, black-turbaned TNSM members carry the small > white and black flags as they walk ahead of Sufi Mohammad. ...... UNQUOTE > > > > This quote is from an article on Maulana Sufi Mohammad written by > Rahimullah Yusufzai. > > http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=175825 > > > > No green flag. No crescent and star on it. > > > > The green flag with the crescent and star on it which is used by Indian > Muslims has often caused misunderstandings. > > > > One recent example has been Simi Garewal talking about Pakistani Flags > being flown by Indian Muslims. She apologised later for having mistaken the > Islamic Flag of the Indian Muslims for the Pakistani Flag. > > > > The close resemblance between the 2 flags confused even Anupam > Chakravartty, who inspite of video coverage from Times Now showing it to be > a Pakistani Flag, insisted that what was flown in Assam with " sickle (sic) > and star on green background is an islamic symbol" > > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2009-April/018755.html > > > > In an earlier mail I had commented: > > > > """""" If this is factual, then the question arises for the Indian > Muslims that should they be thinking about using the Islamic Flag without > the Crescent and Star so that it does not appear to be close to being the > flag of Pakistan? """""" > > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2008-December/017016.html > > > > Just thinking aloud > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed May 6 13:21:31 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 00:51:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims In-Reply-To: <562330.29752.qm@web90404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <597975.56733.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Chanchal   If you think you are a good Indian or a good Hindu you are totally mistaken. You are a disgrace to both.   People like you are nothing but enemies of India who by word and action do nothing but bring about divides in India and fracture it.   Please do not copy any of your idiotic mails to me.   Kshmendra  --- On Wed, 5/6/09, chanchal malviya wrote: From: chanchal malviya Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims To: "M Javed" , kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Cc: "sarai list" Date: Wednesday, May 6, 2009, 9:31 AM Indian Muslims are those whose forefathers betrayed with their own base foundation Hinduism - either out of fear or lust. Indian Muslims are those who historically didn't play a major role in Indian Independence, and rather took lead in Khilafat with Gandhi (the apostole of peace) to massacre over 10,000 Hindus in the name of God... Indian Muslims are those who established a thick line in 1947 that they cannot live with Hindus who unfortunately happens to be their own ancestral brothers... India Muslims now have loosed their credibility of being a part of Nationalist attitude by publicly denying to accept National Anthem, National Song and denying Bharat as maata... when these things should have nothing to take with Hindus... but now slogans like 'Bharat maata ki Jai', 'Jana gana mana', 'vande maatram'... are all part of only Hindu culture... Indian Muslims are now a partners of Terrorism, and by and large declared Terrorism... most of their leaders shout publicly that every Muslim should be a terrorist with some logical background that terrorism should be for non-believers often purified through management language... Indian Muslims or any Muslim in this world (barring exceptions - 1 to 2 % of the population), has to re-establish their credibility that they are humans and worshipers of humanity first before unknown, unseen God who according to them hates, prepares fire of hell, prepared heaven with houris and virgins, asks people to murder...   WHO WILL SOLVE THIS IGNORANCE OF HATRED IN THE NAME OF GOD - ONLY HINDUS... That is the reason Muslims have existed from over thousand years in India, and Hindus and others have been eliminated from Islamic lands... Historically proven, demography of today proves this... One should not enforce their own intolerance upon Hindus in the name of Babri and Gujarat Riots... They must go back into 1000 years of History which created Babri.. Kashmir.. and Godhra...  One must talk of CAUSE and not EFFECT alone... The Effect on Hindus are much deeper than anything else in this world... The well integrated four Varnas - popularly known as Aryas - were divided and remains divided because of Invasion and Western Politics still ruling this nation... The ever free women of India were put under 'Ghunghat' for ever to hide their face from the Islamic looters... Brahmins had to impose child marriage among Hindus because their girls were picked away at an early age in the name of 'Virgin' given by God to Islamic rapers... British took advantage of this and teached the whole population that these are the raw culture of Hinduism... Unfortunate, the same Best Scientists, Philosophers, Pschologists and all failed to defeat Swami Vivekananda who put Hinduism on top of everything on their land... Read him, read Hinduism from its scripture (and not from the mouth of Dr. Zakir Naik)... and you will know that WORLD LIVES BECAUSE HINDUISM IS ALIVE EVEN IN ISLAM AND CHRISTIANITY...  A person respecting his parents is Hinduism, A person loyarl to his Religous Guru is Hinduism, A person dedicated to his job is Hinduism, A person marrying and leading a stable family is Hinduism... A person getting spiritual in line with God is Hinduism... You may change the books, induce impurity in the name of God in those books... but the truth will ever remain... The world exists because of Hinduism and the world will exist only as long as Hinduism is alive - directly or indirectly.... From: M Javed To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Cc: sarai list Sent: Tuesday, May 5, 2009 5:38:01 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims Dear Kshmendra Who is an Indian Muslim? We need to answer this before we can answer your "...should they be thinking about using the Islamic flag..." Javed On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 5:19 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > QUOTE: > > It also carried drawings of two white and black flags, the former being the main flag of Holy Prophet Muhammad (Peace be Upon Him) and the latter his military standard. Even now, black-turbaned TNSM members carry the small white and black flags as they walk ahead of Sufi Mohammad. ...... UNQUOTE > > This quote is from an article on Maulana Sufi Mohammad written by Rahimullah Yusufzai. > http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=175825 > > No green flag. No crescent and star on it. > > The green flag with the crescent and star on it which is used by Indian Muslims has often caused misunderstandings. > > One recent example has been Simi Garewal talking about Pakistani Flags being flown by Indian Muslims. She apologised later for having mistaken the Islamic Flag of the Indian Muslims for the Pakistani Flag. > > The close resemblance between the 2 flags confused even Anupam Chakravartty, who inspite of video coverage from Times Now showing it to be a Pakistani Flag, insisted that what was flown in Assam with " sickle (sic) and star on green background  is an islamic symbol" > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2009-April/018755.html > > In an earlier mail I had commented: > > """""" If this is factual, then the question arises for the Indian Muslims that should they be thinking about using the Islamic Flag without the Crescent and Star so that it does not appear to be close to being the flag of Pakistan? """""" > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2008-December/017016.html > > Just thinking aloud > > Kshmendra > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From c.anupam at gmail.com Wed May 6 13:21:54 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 13:21:54 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims In-Reply-To: <00f901c9ce1a$88cbd0e0$0201a8c0@limo> References: <00f901c9ce1a$88cbd0e0$0201a8c0@limo> Message-ID: <341380d00905060051i79fe6863uf72b4d413ff28de4@mail.gmail.com> Dear Bipin, Before discussing me in this condescending, at least reply to my mails. I had posed number questions in this thread as well as several. WHERE ARE YOUR ANSWERS? please do not talk about dharma. and you are no one to discuss the condition of minority, when you selectively preach about hindutva. i am as opposed to the established secular lobby, as opposed to favourtism. But then in my opposition, am i supposed to make blanket assertions about a whole community or a whole society? if i am not not blaming the whole hindu community for producing a sadhvi pragya, how do you get the right to discuss muslims in this reader's list? all discussions begin with what muslims ought to do and what not. that they should just pay obeisance to one national flag and anthem as if all hindus pay their tributes when national anthem. starting a topic here is so goddamn easy. it is so comfortable for you to say things against a particular community, that too so easily. and bipin, now you have to audacity to say that i am under influence of some people. i think to put in my crass hindi: *tumhari jal gayee hai. * ** let me tell you one last thing. this act of commodify a religion, making blanket statements about all its participants must stop for once and for all. -anupam ** On 5/6/09, bipin wrote: > > Dear Chanchal, > > You are right. So called secular were never interested in improving the > standard of living of minority, but they want to play with them only for > their vote bank and person like Anupam comes under influence of them. > > In India, I think, who speak for or create show to speak for minority is > secular and who speak for majority is communal. This is the definition of > secularism prevailing in India. > > > The real secularism is to give equal respect and treatment to all the > religions (dharma). > > > > But, what is religion or what is Dharma? It is very complicated question. > > > The real religion or dharma is the work you do honestly and sincerely > allotted to you. For Ex. You have to take care of your new born child and > make him/her self sufficient by giving good culture, education, discipline, > fighting spirit etc. Instead of this if you remain in the activities like > prayer in temples/mosque and devote the time after god only is not the real > dharma you are adopting. You carry on your duty sincerely and honestly you > have to do at the different stages of life is the real dharma or religion. > > > thanks > BIPIN > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "chanchal malviya" > To: "anupam chakravartty" ; "sarai list" < > reader-list at sarai.net> > Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2009 12:11 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims > > > > Dear Anupam, > > > > You are conflicting your own sentence... You said, national anthem is > sung when you feel for your country... > > The direct meaning of this sentence is 'One will not sing the National > Anthem if he do not feel for the Country' > > > > There is no question of force.... I never said that any anti-national > should be forced to sing the Anthem... not all.. > > > > If Saffron is my color... let me understand what is your color.... Why > was the Flag of India not completely white... If Saffron color is wrong, why > it is there in the Flag at all... I wonder if you have ever told to the > Terrorist that they have Greenized websites... I am sure you have never told > so... > > > > Because you do not have answers to the Saffrons, whose area of operation > are within their own country... and they have come up as powers to respond > to them who are harming Humanity in India (eg Conversion program of > Christian by buying through money and for humanitarian reason, infiltration > of Crores of Bangladeshis, etc.).. Unfortunately, Saffrons has to do this > because people like you supports them (as Congress, CPIM dos)... And > fighting for the protection is Crime and rhetoric for you... doesn't > matter.... > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: anupam chakravartty > > To: sarai list > > Sent: Wednesday, May 6, 2009 10:54:29 AM > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims > > > > dear chanchal > > > > national anthem is sung when you feel for your country. not out of force. > > please spare the national anthem at least from your rhetoric that sounds > > like ones that you get to read in the saffronised websites. > > > > at least be geniune in your critique. mugging up points from a propaganda > > site would not really help. > > > > regards > > > > anupam > > > > > > On 5/6/09, chanchal malviya wrote: > >> > >> Indian Muslims are those whose forefathers betrayed with their own base > >> foundation Hinduism - either out of fear or lust. > >> Indian Muslims are those who historically didn't play a major role in > >> Indian Independence, and rather took lead in Khilafat with Gandhi (the > >> apostole of peace) to massacre over 10,000 Hindus in the name of God... > >> Indian Muslims are those who established a thick line in 1947 that they > >> cannot live with Hindus who unfortunately happens to be their own > ancestral > >> brothers... > >> India Muslims now have loosed their credibility of being a part of > >> Nationalist attitude by publicly denying to accept National Anthem, > National > >> Song and denying Bharat as maata... when these things should have > nothing to > >> take with Hindus... but now slogans like 'Bharat maata ki Jai', 'Jana > gana > >> mana', 'vande maatram'... are all part of only Hindu culture... > >> Indian Muslims are now a partners of Terrorism, and by and large > declared > >> Terrorism... most of their leaders shout publicly that every Muslim > should > >> be a terrorist with some logical background that terrorism should be for > >> non-believers often purified through management language... > >> Indian Muslims or any Muslim in this world (barring exceptions - 1 to 2 > % > >> of the population), has to re-establish their credibility that they are > >> humans and worshipers of humanity first before unknown, unseen God who > >> according to them hates, prepares fire of hell, prepared heaven with > houris > >> and virgins, asks people to murder... > >> > >> WHO WILL SOLVE THIS IGNORANCE OF HATRED IN THE NAME OF GOD - ONLY > HINDUS... > >> That is the reason Muslims have existed from over thousand years in > India, > >> and Hindus and others have been eliminated from Islamic lands... > >> Historically proven, demography of today proves this... > >> > >> One should not enforce their own intolerance upon Hindus in the name of > >> Babri and Gujarat Riots... They must go back into 1000 years of History > >> which created Babri.. Kashmir.. and Godhra... One must talk of CAUSE > and > >> not EFFECT alone... The Effect on Hindus are much deeper than anything > else > >> in this world... > >> > >> The well integrated four Varnas - popularly known as Aryas - were > divided > >> and remains divided because of Invasion and Western Politics still > ruling > >> this nation... > >> The ever free women of India were put under 'Ghunghat' for ever to hide > >> their face from the Islamic looters... Brahmins had to impose child > marriage > >> among Hindus because their girls were picked away at an early age in the > >> name of 'Virgin' given by God to Islamic rapers... British took > advantage of > >> this and teached the whole population that these are the raw culture of > >> Hinduism... > >> > >> Unfortunate, the same Best Scientists, Philosophers, Pschologists and > all > >> failed to defeat Swami Vivekananda who put Hinduism on top of everything > on > >> their land... Read him, read Hinduism from its scripture (and not from > the > >> mouth of Dr. Zakir Naik)... and you will know that WORLD LIVES BECAUSE > >> HINDUISM IS ALIVE EVEN IN ISLAM AND CHRISTIANITY... > >> > >> A person respecting his parents is Hinduism, A person loyarl to his > >> Religous Guru is Hinduism, A person dedicated to his job is Hinduism, A > >> person marrying and leading a stable family is Hinduism... A person > getting > >> spiritual in line with God is Hinduism... > >> You may change the books, induce impurity in the name of God in those > >> books... but the truth will ever remain... The world exists because of > >> Hinduism and the world will exist only as long as Hinduism is alive - > >> directly or indirectly.... > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ________________________________ > >> From: M Javed > >> To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > >> Cc: sarai list > >> Sent: Tuesday, May 5, 2009 5:38:01 PM > >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims > >> > >> Dear Kshmendra > >> > >> Who is an Indian Muslim? > >> > >> We need to answer this before we can answer your "...should they be > >> thinking about using the Islamic flag..." > >> > >> Javed > >> > >> > >> > >> On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 5:19 PM, Kshmendra Kaul > > >> wrote: > >> > > >> > QUOTE: > >> > > >> > It also carried drawings of two white and black flags, the former > being > >> the main flag of Holy Prophet Muhammad (Peace be Upon Him) and the > latter > >> his military standard. Even now, black-turbaned TNSM members carry the > small > >> white and black flags as they walk ahead of Sufi Mohammad. ...... > UNQUOTE > >> > > >> > This quote is from an article on Maulana Sufi Mohammad written by > >> Rahimullah Yusufzai. > >> > http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=175825 > >> > > >> > No green flag. No crescent and star on it. > >> > > >> > The green flag with the crescent and star on it which is used by > Indian > >> Muslims has often caused misunderstandings. > >> > > >> > One recent example has been Simi Garewal talking about Pakistani Flags > >> being flown by Indian Muslims. She apologised later for having mistaken > the > >> Islamic Flag of the Indian Muslims for the Pakistani Flag. > >> > > >> > The close resemblance between the 2 flags confused even Anupam > >> Chakravartty, who inspite of video coverage from Times Now showing it to > be > >> a Pakistani Flag, insisted that what was flown in Assam with " sickle > (sic) > >> and star on green background is an islamic symbol" > >> > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2009-April/018755.html > >> > > >> > In an earlier mail I had commented: > >> > > >> > """""" If this is factual, then the question arises for the Indian > >> Muslims that should they be thinking about using the Islamic Flag > without > >> the Crescent and Star so that it does not appear to be close to being > the > >> flag of Pakistan? """""" > >> > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2008-December/017016.html > >> > > >> > Just thinking aloud > >> > > >> > Kshmendra > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > List archive: > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: > >> > >> > >> > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From yasir.media at gmail.com Wed May 6 13:29:13 2009 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?windows-1256?B?eWFzaXIgfu3HINPR?=) Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 12:59:13 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Demo/public meeting against talibanization In-Reply-To: <373187.57603.qm@web110414.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <373187.57603.qm@web110414.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5af37bb0905060059waea9080g9e6d022cf30c8c30@mail.gmail.com> *WOMEN’S ACTION FORUM* Post Box No. 13804, Karachi- Email: wafkarachi at yahoo.com * * Women to Reclaim Public Spaces *Come to a* *Programme of Defiance & Resistance.* *Karachi** Press Club*, *On 8th May, 2009, 5:30 – 7:30pm* We invite you to a programme highlighting the implications of Talibanisation for women, artists, and minorities in particular, and to our country in general. The Talibans have created terror through slaughtering of people, bomb blasts, kidnappings, and destruction of properties which has led to severe restrictions on women, and displacements of thousands of people from their homes. It seems their militancy has encouraged some men and women in some urban centers of Pakistan to admonish and threaten women on their mode of dress and their presence in public places. This is a deliberate strategy to purge public spaces of women's presence. WAF believe Talibinsation is a mindset which cuts across all ethnic lines and must be resisted by all, and in no uncertain terms. This mind-set abuses Islam by using it to control others. We believe religion is a private matter and all citizens of Pakistan are equal citizens We believe peace and justice must be the guiding light for Pakistan to become peaceful and just society. To achieve our goal we must discuss matters together and resolve to act collectively for greater public good, for this is what democracy is about. Following are the key positions and we invite you to endorse them 1. One constitution and one set of laws for all of Pakistan 2. The writ of the government must prevail on the basis of moral authority premised on protection, health, education, livelihood and security of all persons equally 3. Urgent de-weaponisation of society 4. No special accords that compromise the rights of any group of citizens of Pakistan . Please do attend and bring all your friends – women and men – to show solidarity with our cause which is also your cause. Thanking you Women's Action Forum, Karachi . From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed May 6 13:35:19 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 13:35:19 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims In-Reply-To: <597975.56733.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <562330.29752.qm@web90404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <597975.56733.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70905060105o14c49588q5391b6cf5530f1d2@mail.gmail.com> Dear Kshemendra , As i have mentioned to you , you have a slave inside you . A salve which you have not been able to exorcised since centuries beginning with the Islamic onslaught on Bharat. What makes Chancal a disgrace while as those who love to follow Arabic things not a disgrace to India or Indian culture. Pawan On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 1:21 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Chanchal > > If you think you are a good Indian or a good Hindu you are totally > mistaken. You are a disgrace to both. > > People like you are nothing but enemies of India who by word and action do > nothing but bring about divides in India and fracture it. > > Please do not copy any of your idiotic mails to me. > > Kshmendra > > --- On Wed, 5/6/09, chanchal malviya wrote: > > From: chanchal malviya > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims > To: "M Javed" , kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > Cc: "sarai list" > Date: Wednesday, May 6, 2009, 9:31 AM > > > > > > > Indian Muslims are those whose forefathers betrayed with their own base > foundation Hinduism - either out of fear or lust. > Indian Muslims are those who historically didn't play a major role in > Indian Independence, and rather took lead in Khilafat with Gandhi (the > apostole of peace) to massacre over 10,000 Hindus in the name of God... > Indian Muslims are those who established a thick line in 1947 that they > cannot live with Hindus who unfortunately happens to be their own ancestral > brothers... > India Muslims now have loosed their credibility of being a part of > Nationalist attitude by publicly denying to accept National Anthem, National > Song and denying Bharat as maata... when these things should have nothing to > take with Hindus... but now slogans like 'Bharat maata ki Jai', 'Jana gana > mana', 'vande maatram'... are all part of only Hindu culture... > Indian Muslims are now a partners of Terrorism, and by and large declared > Terrorism... most of their leaders shout publicly that every Muslim should > be a terrorist with some logical background that terrorism should be for > non-believers often purified through management language... > Indian Muslims or any Muslim in this world (barring exceptions - 1 to 2 % > of the population), has to re-establish their credibility that they are > humans and worshipers of humanity first before unknown, unseen God who > according to them hates, prepares fire of hell, prepared heaven with houris > and virgins, asks people to murder... > > WHO WILL SOLVE THIS IGNORANCE OF HATRED IN THE NAME OF GOD - ONLY HINDUS... > That is the reason Muslims have existed from over thousand years in India, > and Hindus and others have been eliminated from Islamic lands... > Historically proven, demography of today proves this... > > One should not enforce their own intolerance upon Hindus in the name of > Babri and Gujarat Riots... They must go back into 1000 years of History > which created Babri.. Kashmir.. and Godhra... One must talk of CAUSE and > not EFFECT alone... The Effect on Hindus are much deeper than anything else > in this world... > > The well integrated four Varnas - popularly known as Aryas - were divided > and remains divided because of Invasion and Western Politics still ruling > this nation... > The ever free women of India were put under 'Ghunghat' for ever to hide > their face from the Islamic looters... Brahmins had to impose child marriage > among Hindus because their girls were picked away at an early age in the > name of 'Virgin' given by God to Islamic rapers... British took advantage of > this and teached the whole population that these are the raw culture of > Hinduism... > > Unfortunate, the same Best Scientists, Philosophers, Pschologists and all > failed to defeat Swami Vivekananda who put Hinduism on top of everything on > their land... Read him, read Hinduism from its scripture (and not from the > mouth of Dr. Zakir Naik)... and you will know that WORLD LIVES BECAUSE > HINDUISM IS ALIVE EVEN IN ISLAM AND CHRISTIANITY... > > A person respecting his parents is Hinduism, A person loyarl to his > Religous Guru is Hinduism, A person dedicated to his job is Hinduism, A > person marrying and leading a stable family is Hinduism... A person getting > spiritual in line with God is Hinduism... > You may change the books, induce impurity in the name of God in those > books... but the truth will ever remain... The world exists because of > Hinduism and the world will exist only as long as Hinduism is alive - > directly or indirectly.... > > > > > > From: M Javed > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > Cc: sarai list > Sent: Tuesday, May 5, 2009 5:38:01 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims > > Dear Kshmendra > > Who is an Indian Muslim? > > We need to answer this before we can answer your "...should they be > thinking about using the Islamic flag..." > > Javed > > > > On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 5:19 PM, Kshmendra Kaul > wrote: > > > > QUOTE: > > > > It also carried drawings of two white and black flags, the former being > the main flag of Holy Prophet Muhammad (Peace be Upon Him) and the latter > his military standard. Even now, black-turbaned TNSM members carry the small > white and black flags as they walk ahead of Sufi Mohammad. ...... UNQUOTE > > > > This quote is from an article on Maulana Sufi Mohammad written by > Rahimullah Yusufzai. > > http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=175825 > > > > No green flag. No crescent and star on it. > > > > The green flag with the crescent and star on it which is used by Indian > Muslims has often caused misunderstandings. > > > > One recent example has been Simi Garewal talking about Pakistani Flags > being flown by Indian Muslims. She apologised later for having mistaken the > Islamic Flag of the Indian Muslims for the Pakistani Flag. > > > > The close resemblance between the 2 flags confused even > Anupam Chakravartty, who inspite of video coverage from Times Now showing it > to be a Pakistani Flag, insisted that what was flown in Assam with " sickle > (sic) and star on green background is an islamic symbol" > > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2009-April/018755.html > > > > In an earlier mail I had commented: > > > > """""" If this is factual, then the question arises for the Indian > Muslims that should they be thinking about using the Islamic Flag without > the Crescent and Star so that it does not appear to be close to being the > flag of Pakistan? """""" > > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2008-December/017016.html > > > > Just thinking aloud > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > From rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com Wed May 6 13:43:04 2009 From: rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com (Rajen Uppinangadi) Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 13:43:04 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Modi and paint brush Message-ID: <61164a90905060113p38dfd7f7vb81ccacc8e06e54a@mail.gmail.com> PR exercises by you are truely great, exemplary to say the least, as if in Assam or west Bengal nothing of the crimes happen.? Listen, atleast can you list 5 good things of governance that you like in the state of Gujarath compared with your domicile state, and then list 25 bad things.?Otherwise list readers may feel that you are PR man against MODI by the interested interests. ! Regards, Rajen. From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed May 6 14:01:37 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 14:01:37 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?Nepal=92s_Fictitious_Communist_Rev?= =?windows-1252?q?olution?= Message-ID: <6b79f1a70905060131y39b6114br54f7afda06d53d28@mail.gmail.com> http://sherryx.wordpress.com/2009/05/05/on-fictitious-revolutions-and-fictitious-revolutionaries-prachanda-resigned/ Some times back, 31 May 2008 i wrote in my article , Nepal's Fictitious Revolution: Goodbye King , Welcome Microsoft, few lines which i recalled when i saw great Maoist leader comrade Prachanda resigning from the office of Nepal's prime minister. "Azeem Tur" Prachanda Here is the man who controlled 70% of Nepal through his revolutionary armed resistance. The Nepali state had no control on 70% of the territory,the liberated region had Maoist administration, its taxation, its system. Here is the man on whose call people rose in the Capital and surrounded the Palace. During the movement one color was to be seen in Kathmandu and it was Red. The two communist parties of Kathmandu and Maoists controlled every thing. On there one call, people who were surrounding the palace could have stormed it. No, but No. With great pomp and rhetoric , king was sent home and communists saved the system. They returned the 70% of conquered territory back to the bourgeoisie. They returned their arms. Like good loyal Liberals they became part of system, the capitalist system that is. This was called the great revolution. I unlike most communists have a problem that i have read Lenin's State and Revolution. He wrote: "Marx's idea is that the working class must break up, smash the 'ready-made state machinery,' and not confine itself merely to laying hold of it." When Pakistani communists were celebrating the "revolution" in Lahore i had no hesitation in writing and declaring it a "fictitious" revolution. I knew one thing, one simple thing. There is no revolution without capture of power. The only problem for humanity is the reformist degeneration of communist leadership. The degeneration of communist parties into capitalist liberal democratic parties. They have the power, like they had in Nepal but they put it on plate and return it to the bosses with thanks. What do the bosses do, when the time comes, they strike Dekho dur Ufak Pe--- back without any gratitude. Like they did to comrade Prachanda, without any gratitude, that this man who could have snuffed out capitalism from Nepal and could have galvanized India and ushered in a new revolutionary epoch, but he choose to give up his land, his arms to the bourgoiese . They , kicked him out. What did i say?; "I dunno why i recall that famous speech by Michael Moore , delivered at the Oscars, " we like non fiction because We live in fictitious times , we live in a time where fictitious elections give us a fictitious president--" The tragedy continues, we are now having what i call "Fictitious Revolutions", one has just occurred in Nepal, where a heroic struggle by people resulted in Communist victory but which resulted in a "revolution" where "workers" are not in control and capitalism still rules. Good bye to the King and welcome Microsoft is the Maoist agenda Yet another of fictitious revolutions is being cooked up in Pakistan, with "Go Musharaf Go" and "Welcome Capitalism Welcome" is the policy of Pakistani lawyers and civil society" Now Prachanda has gone. Our king Mush has gone too, and our revolution has occurred too, Justice Iftikhar is back. But change can be seen no where. Tragedy of fictitious revolutions and fictitious revolutionaries continue Now Prachanda and the communist should wait for a genocide and civil war or become loyalist liberals in that case push people to disillusionment and face the destruction of whole communist movement of Nepal. Decades back Leon Trotsky wrote: "In the last analysis, the crisis of humanity was reduced to a crisis of leadership of the proletariat" In the same article Rajesh Tayagi wrote: As a system of governance, the monarchy had already lost all its steam since the great people's uprising of April 2006, while the forces of medieval reaction - hitherto protected under the wings of the monarchy in Nepal - were already adapting with Nepali bourgeois rule. Because of this, the abolition of the monarchy in Nepal as a state system, and the consequent emergence of a republic, has but a limited significance. This is in sharp contrast to the bourgeois overturns in 19th century Europe, where the emergence of bourgeois republics, represented a turn in world history. In 21st century Nepal, such a republic (although a step forward in bourgeois democratic terms) is of no real meaning and of no practical use for the people of Nepal, unless and until it puts power directly in the hands of the working class and through it the peasantry. Power would be meaningless until it is directed against the bourgeois" Mr Tayagi wrote and these line now appear to be Prophetic : "The present turn in the politics of Nepal, presents only a caricature of the February revolution in Russia in 1917, with no October overturn in the offing, in the absence of a Bolshevik opposition. We will soon witness the same surrender of power by its Menshevik leadership, before the local reaction and imperialist bourgeoisie. We will find this leadership zealously defending the bourgeois state, law and property against the people. Unable to advance the revolution even an inch further, with every passing day, the Maoists would find themselves more and more trapped inside their false web of bourgeois democracy. Either the Maoists abandon the working people becoming open apologists of bourgeois democracy or the working people becoming more and more disillusioned, will eventually be forced to look for an alternative to the Maoists" The tragedy continues. If anyone is interested in studying the history of crisis of leadership of Proletariat , here are three articles "Marxism and State" which deal with this question in detail. Great Urdu write Quratulain Hyder once wrote about Faiz's poem "ye daagh daagh Ujala" [this night bitten dawn], that it has become an anthem for her generation, i wonder that betrayal and degeneration of revolutionary leadership will make it the anthem for how many more generations to come-- we are prisoners of the dawn in Nepal and Pakistan. From aliens at dataone.in Wed May 6 14:03:31 2009 From: aliens at dataone.in (bipin) Date: Wed, 06 May 2009 14:03:31 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims References: <00f901c9ce1a$88cbd0e0$0201a8c0@limo> <341380d00905060051i79fe6863uf72b4d413ff28de4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <010c01c9ce25$570384d0$0201a8c0@limo> Dear Anupam, No time but giving very brief answer. I have not written anything against any particular community. I have never wrote anything against Muslim in my statement. They are also having equal right and there is no question of condemning them. I am against the Indians Includes all) behaving against the interest of country not respecting its sovereignty, nationality, support direct/indirect support to terrorism and indiscipline in behavior. thanks Bipin ----- Original Message ----- From: "anupam chakravartty" To: "sarai list" Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2009 1:21 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims > Dear Bipin, > > Before discussing me in this condescending, at least reply to my mails. I > had posed number questions in this thread as well as several. WHERE ARE > YOUR > ANSWERS? > > please do not talk about dharma. and you are no one to discuss the > condition > of minority, when you selectively preach about hindutva. > > i am as opposed to the established secular lobby, as opposed to > favourtism. > But then in my opposition, am i supposed to make blanket assertions about > a > whole community or a whole society? if i am not not blaming the whole > hindu > community for producing a sadhvi pragya, how do you get the right to > discuss > muslims in this reader's list? all discussions begin with what muslims > ought > to do and what not. that they should just pay obeisance to one national > flag > and anthem as if all hindus pay their tributes when national anthem. > starting a topic here is so goddamn easy. it is so comfortable for you to > say things against a particular community, that too so easily. and bipin, > now you have to audacity to say that i am under influence of some people. > i > think to put in my crass hindi: *tumhari jal gayee hai. * > ** > let me tell you one last thing. this act of commodify a religion, making > blanket statements about all its participants must stop for once and for > all. > > -anupam > > ** > On 5/6/09, bipin wrote: >> >> Dear Chanchal, >> >> You are right. So called secular were never interested in improving the >> standard of living of minority, but they want to play with them only for >> their vote bank and person like Anupam comes under influence of them. >> >> In India, I think, who speak for or create show to speak for minority is >> secular and who speak for majority is communal. This is the definition of >> secularism prevailing in India. >> >> >> The real secularism is to give equal respect and treatment to all the >> religions (dharma). >> >> >> >> But, what is religion or what is Dharma? It is very complicated question. >> >> >> The real religion or dharma is the work you do honestly and sincerely >> allotted to you. For Ex. You have to take care of your new born child and >> make him/her self sufficient by giving good culture, education, >> discipline, >> fighting spirit etc. Instead of this if you remain in the activities like >> prayer in temples/mosque and devote the time after god only is not the >> real >> dharma you are adopting. You carry on your duty sincerely and honestly >> you >> have to do at the different stages of life is the real dharma or >> religion. >> >> >> thanks >> BIPIN >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "chanchal malviya" >> To: "anupam chakravartty" ; "sarai list" < >> reader-list at sarai.net> >> Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2009 12:11 PM >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims >> >> >> > Dear Anupam, >> > >> > You are conflicting your own sentence... You said, national anthem is >> sung when you feel for your country... >> > The direct meaning of this sentence is 'One will not sing the National >> Anthem if he do not feel for the Country' >> > >> > There is no question of force.... I never said that any anti-national >> should be forced to sing the Anthem... not all.. >> > >> > If Saffron is my color... let me understand what is your color.... >> > Why >> was the Flag of India not completely white... If Saffron color is wrong, >> why >> it is there in the Flag at all... I wonder if you have ever told to the >> Terrorist that they have Greenized websites... I am sure you have never >> told >> so... >> > >> > Because you do not have answers to the Saffrons, whose area of >> > operation >> are within their own country... and they have come up as powers to >> respond >> to them who are harming Humanity in India (eg Conversion program of >> Christian by buying through money and for humanitarian reason, >> infiltration >> of Crores of Bangladeshis, etc.).. Unfortunately, Saffrons has to do this >> because people like you supports them (as Congress, CPIM dos)... And >> fighting for the protection is Crime and rhetoric for you... doesn't >> matter.... >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > ________________________________ >> > From: anupam chakravartty >> > To: sarai list >> > Sent: Wednesday, May 6, 2009 10:54:29 AM >> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims >> > >> > dear chanchal >> > >> > national anthem is sung when you feel for your country. not out of >> > force. >> > please spare the national anthem at least from your rhetoric that >> > sounds >> > like ones that you get to read in the saffronised websites. >> > >> > at least be geniune in your critique. mugging up points from a >> > propaganda >> > site would not really help. >> > >> > regards >> > >> > anupam >> > >> > >> > On 5/6/09, chanchal malviya wrote: >> >> >> >> Indian Muslims are those whose forefathers betrayed with their own >> >> base >> >> foundation Hinduism - either out of fear or lust. >> >> Indian Muslims are those who historically didn't play a major role in >> >> Indian Independence, and rather took lead in Khilafat with Gandhi (the >> >> apostole of peace) to massacre over 10,000 Hindus in the name of >> >> God... >> >> Indian Muslims are those who established a thick line in 1947 that >> >> they >> >> cannot live with Hindus who unfortunately happens to be their own >> ancestral >> >> brothers... >> >> India Muslims now have loosed their credibility of being a part of >> >> Nationalist attitude by publicly denying to accept National Anthem, >> National >> >> Song and denying Bharat as maata... when these things should have >> nothing to >> >> take with Hindus... but now slogans like 'Bharat maata ki Jai', 'Jana >> gana >> >> mana', 'vande maatram'... are all part of only Hindu culture... >> >> Indian Muslims are now a partners of Terrorism, and by and large >> declared >> >> Terrorism... most of their leaders shout publicly that every Muslim >> should >> >> be a terrorist with some logical background that terrorism should be >> >> for >> >> non-believers often purified through management language... >> >> Indian Muslims or any Muslim in this world (barring exceptions - 1 to >> >> 2 >> % >> >> of the population), has to re-establish their credibility that they >> >> are >> >> humans and worshipers of humanity first before unknown, unseen God who >> >> according to them hates, prepares fire of hell, prepared heaven with >> houris >> >> and virgins, asks people to murder... >> >> >> >> WHO WILL SOLVE THIS IGNORANCE OF HATRED IN THE NAME OF GOD - ONLY >> HINDUS... >> >> That is the reason Muslims have existed from over thousand years in >> India, >> >> and Hindus and others have been eliminated from Islamic lands... >> >> Historically proven, demography of today proves this... >> >> >> >> One should not enforce their own intolerance upon Hindus in the name >> >> of >> >> Babri and Gujarat Riots... They must go back into 1000 years of >> >> History >> >> which created Babri.. Kashmir.. and Godhra... One must talk of CAUSE >> and >> >> not EFFECT alone... The Effect on Hindus are much deeper than anything >> else >> >> in this world... >> >> >> >> The well integrated four Varnas - popularly known as Aryas - were >> divided >> >> and remains divided because of Invasion and Western Politics still >> ruling >> >> this nation... >> >> The ever free women of India were put under 'Ghunghat' for ever to >> >> hide >> >> their face from the Islamic looters... Brahmins had to impose child >> marriage >> >> among Hindus because their girls were picked away at an early age in >> >> the >> >> name of 'Virgin' given by God to Islamic rapers... British took >> advantage of >> >> this and teached the whole population that these are the raw culture >> >> of >> >> Hinduism... >> >> >> >> Unfortunate, the same Best Scientists, Philosophers, Pschologists and >> all >> >> failed to defeat Swami Vivekananda who put Hinduism on top of >> >> everything >> on >> >> their land... Read him, read Hinduism from its scripture (and not from >> the >> >> mouth of Dr. Zakir Naik)... and you will know that WORLD LIVES BECAUSE >> >> HINDUISM IS ALIVE EVEN IN ISLAM AND CHRISTIANITY... >> >> >> >> A person respecting his parents is Hinduism, A person loyarl to his >> >> Religous Guru is Hinduism, A person dedicated to his job is Hinduism, >> >> A >> >> person marrying and leading a stable family is Hinduism... A person >> getting >> >> spiritual in line with God is Hinduism... >> >> You may change the books, induce impurity in the name of God in those >> >> books... but the truth will ever remain... The world exists because of >> >> Hinduism and the world will exist only as long as Hinduism is alive - >> >> directly or indirectly.... >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> >> From: M Javed >> >> To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com >> >> Cc: sarai list >> >> Sent: Tuesday, May 5, 2009 5:38:01 PM >> >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims >> >> >> >> Dear Kshmendra >> >> >> >> Who is an Indian Muslim? >> >> >> >> We need to answer this before we can answer your "...should they be >> >> thinking about using the Islamic flag..." >> >> >> >> Javed >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 5:19 PM, Kshmendra Kaul >> >> > > >> >> wrote: >> >> > >> >> > QUOTE: >> >> > >> >> > It also carried drawings of two white and black flags, the former >> being >> >> the main flag of Holy Prophet Muhammad (Peace be Upon Him) and the >> latter >> >> his military standard. Even now, black-turbaned TNSM members carry the >> small >> >> white and black flags as they walk ahead of Sufi Mohammad. ...... >> UNQUOTE >> >> > >> >> > This quote is from an article on Maulana Sufi Mohammad written by >> >> Rahimullah Yusufzai. >> >> > http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=175825 >> >> > >> >> > No green flag. No crescent and star on it. >> >> > >> >> > The green flag with the crescent and star on it which is used by >> Indian >> >> Muslims has often caused misunderstandings. >> >> > >> >> > One recent example has been Simi Garewal talking about Pakistani >> >> > Flags >> >> being flown by Indian Muslims. She apologised later for having >> >> mistaken >> the >> >> Islamic Flag of the Indian Muslims for the Pakistani Flag. >> >> > >> >> > The close resemblance between the 2 flags confused even Anupam >> >> Chakravartty, who inspite of video coverage from Times Now showing it >> >> to >> be >> >> a Pakistani Flag, insisted that what was flown in Assam with " sickle >> (sic) >> >> and star on green background is an islamic symbol" >> >> > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2009-April/018755.html >> >> > >> >> > In an earlier mail I had commented: >> >> > >> >> > """""" If this is factual, then the question arises for the Indian >> >> Muslims that should they be thinking about using the Islamic Flag >> without >> >> the Crescent and Star so that it does not appear to be close to being >> the >> >> flag of Pakistan? """""" >> >> > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2008-December/017016.html >> >> > >> >> > Just thinking aloud >> >> > >> >> > Kshmendra >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > _________________________________________ >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> > List archive: >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> List archive: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> List archive: >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > >> > >> > >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Wed May 6 14:20:19 2009 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com (chanchal malviya) Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 01:50:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims In-Reply-To: <00f001c9ce1a$6f9224d0$0201a8c0@limo> References: <74892.42762.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <562330.29752.qm@web90404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <341380d00905052224o479c316fw3454a0457d8bc233@mail.gmail.com> <9276.14599.qm@web90406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <341380d00905052357x1181d884m390e157d52f817bd@mail.gmail.com> <00f001c9ce1a$6f9224d0$0201a8c0@limo> Message-ID: <133518.93982.qm@web90401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> And the black money poured in Temples are ultimately hired by Black money owners that we call Congress.. who give it to black money utilizers who are none other than Masjids and Churches.... Haj money comes from Temples... Dharma is our Father... Do not change it, as it is an abuse to your motherland.... Most of our Ancestors have abused our Bharat maata, and that is the reason we have Muslim and Christians fighting with their own Ancestral brothers in the name of God who says them to hate, kill, rape and has prepared a brothel for them with 72 Houries for each of them... Lord Krishna says: 'Shreyan Swa Dharma Vigunah Pardharmat Su Anusthitat'... Better is one own's Dharma even if other's seem to be superior... We know what was Hinduism before Muslims came here... They looted, raped, murdered in the name of God... that is the order of their God... they know it better.... they are the better readers of their God's book... Hindus will never know this, because they have never even read their own book.... what to say about other religiuos book.... And it is these type of Hindus which existed some hundred years ago who left their motherland and joined hands with some other father called as Islam... out of fear or out of Greed.... and all these Muslims shouting today against Hinduism are actually abusing their own forefathers... if they believe in Soul - all of them are alive.... listening to their abuses.... Because for sure... there was not Quran before 1400 years ago... there was no Muhammad before 1400 years and even Muhammad was not a Muslim... By destruction came Islam... By force it spread... and By Sword it exists... Even Muslims know this.... They know that their Quran do not even permit them to read any other religious book, not to take any friends outside their religion, and have as many virgins from outside religion as their right hand can possess... A muslim knows this, but a hindu do not.... Hindus do not know this because they are all illeterate... they do not read their own texts... they talk religion from the mouth of others... and particularly those who are from west... So, no need to discuss with these... ________________________________ From: bipin To: anupam chakravartty Cc: sarai-list Sent: Wednesday, May 6, 2009 12:45:28 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims Black money poured into the temple funds, just it is poured in the mosque funds also and terrorist activity also. But you are keeping mum on this part. Your argument is only for that matter goes against Hindu only. ----- Original Message ----- From: "anupam chakravartty" To: "sarai list" Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2009 12:27 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims > Dear Chanchal, > > You are absolutely right. I do not think there is a conflict. One would > love > something only when one can feel. one becomes a hypocrite if he/she do not > feel for the nation and sing the national anthem so that they can show > off. > doing something for its sake without involving yourself personally is not > right. it is dishonest. > > one doesnt need your understanding of saffron and the hindu religion to > know > what this nation is. and for your kind information area of operation holds > large amounts of black money being poured into temple funds from the > foreign > nations earned with fake immigration scams. you can go on and on about > your > version of deshbhakti by sitting comfortably in an AC room in front of > computer and keep singing national anthem, while your country, your gods, > your peace gets traded in the mindless communal politics. > > - anupam > ------------------------------ > *From:* anupam chakravartty > *To:* sarai list > *Sent:* Wednesday, May 6, 2009 10:54:29 AM > >> >> *Subject:* Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims >> >> dear chanchal >> >> national anthem is sung when you feel for your country. not out of force. >> please spare the national anthem at least from your rhetoric that sounds >> like ones that you get to read in the saffronised websites. >> >> at least be geniune in your critique. mugging up points from a propaganda >> site would not really help. >> >> regards >> >> anupam >> >> >> On 5/6/09, chanchal malviya wrote: >> > >> > Indian Muslims are those whose forefathers betrayed with their own base >> > foundation Hinduism - either out of fear or lust. >> > Indian Muslims are those who historically didn't play a major role in >> > Indian Independence, and rather took lead in Khilafat with Gandhi (the >> > apostole of peace) to massacre over 10,000 Hindus in the name of God... >> > Indian Muslims are those who established a thick line in 1947 that they >> > cannot live with Hindus who unfortunately happens to be their own >> ancestral >> > brothers... >> > India Muslims now have loosed their credibility of being a part of >> > Nationalist attitude by publicly denying to accept National Anthem, >> National >> > Song and denying Bharat as maata... when these things should have >> > nothing >> to >> > take with Hindus... but now slogans like 'Bharat maata ki Jai', 'Jana >> gana >> > mana', 'vande maatram'... are all part of only Hindu culture... >> > Indian Muslims are now a partners of Terrorism, and by and large >> > declared >> > Terrorism... most of their leaders shout publicly that every Muslim >> should >> > be a terrorist with some logical background that terrorism should be >> > for >> > non-believers often purified through management language... >> > Indian Muslims or any Muslim in this world (barring exceptions - 1 to 2 >> > % >> > of the population), has to re-establish their credibility that they are >> > humans and worshipers of humanity first before unknown, unseen God who >> > according to them hates, prepares fire of hell, prepared heaven with >> houris >> > and virgins, asks people to murder... >> > >> > WHO WILL SOLVE THIS IGNORANCE OF HATRED IN THE NAME OF GOD - ONLY >> HINDUS... >> > That is the reason Muslims have existed from over thousand years in >> India, >> > and Hindus and others have been eliminated from Islamic lands... >> > Historically proven, demography of today proves this... >> > >> > One should not enforce their own intolerance upon Hindus in the name of >> > Babri and Gujarat Riots... They must go back into 1000 years of History >> > which created Babri.. Kashmir.. and Godhra... One must talk of CAUSE >> > and >> > not EFFECT alone... The Effect on Hindus are much deeper than anything >> else >> > in this world... >> > >> > The well integrated four Varnas - popularly known as Aryas - were >> > divided >> > and remains divided because of Invasion and Western Politics still >> > ruling >> > this nation... >> > The ever free women of India were put under 'Ghunghat' for ever to hide >> > their face from the Islamic looters... Brahmins had to impose child >> marriage >> > among Hindus because their girls were picked away at an early age in >> > the >> > name of 'Virgin' given by God to Islamic rapers... British took >> > advantage >> of >> > this and teached the whole population that these are the raw culture of >> > Hinduism... >> > >> > Unfortunate, the same Best Scientists, Philosophers, Pschologists and >> > all >> > failed to defeat Swami Vivekananda who put Hinduism on top of >> > everything >> on >> > their land... Read him, read Hinduism from its scripture (and not from >> the >> > mouth of Dr. Zakir Naik)... and you will know that WORLD LIVES BECAUSE >> > HINDUISM IS ALIVE EVEN IN ISLAM AND CHRISTIANITY... >> > >> > A person respecting his parents is Hinduism, A person loyarl to his >> > Religous Guru is Hinduism, A person dedicated to his job is Hinduism, A >> > person marrying and leading a stable family is Hinduism... A person >> getting >> > spiritual in line with God is Hinduism... >> > You may change the books, induce impurity in the name of God in those >> > books... but the truth will ever remain... The world exists because of >> > Hinduism and the world will exist only as long as Hinduism is alive - >> > directly or indirectly.... >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > ________________________________ >> > From: M Javed >> > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com >> > Cc: sarai list >> > Sent: Tuesday, May 5, 2009 5:38:01 PM >> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims >> > >> > Dear Kshmendra >> > >> > Who is an Indian Muslim? >> > >> > We need to answer this before we can answer your "...should they be >> > thinking about using the Islamic flag..." >> > >> > Javed >> > >> > >> > >> > On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 5:19 PM, Kshmendra Kaul >> > >> > wrote: >> > > >> > > QUOTE: >> > > >> > > It also carried drawings of two white and black flags, the former >> > > being >> > the main flag of Holy Prophet Muhammad (Peace be Upon Him) and the >> > latter >> > his military standard. Even now, black-turbaned TNSM members carry the >> small >> > white and black flags as they walk ahead of Sufi Mohammad. ...... >> > UNQUOTE >> > > >> > > This quote is from an article on Maulana Sufi Mohammad written by >> > Rahimullah Yusufzai. >> > > http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=175825 >> > > >> > > No green flag. No crescent and star on it. >> > > >> > > The green flag with the crescent and star on it which is used by >> > > Indian >> > Muslims has often caused misunderstandings. >> > > >> > > One recent example has been Simi Garewal talking about Pakistani >> > > Flags >> > being flown by Indian Muslims. She apologised later for having mistaken >> the >> > Islamic Flag of the Indian Muslims for the Pakistani Flag. >> > > >> > > The close resemblance between the 2 flags confused even Anupam >> > Chakravartty, who inspite of video coverage from Times Now showing it >> > to >> be >> > a Pakistani Flag, insisted that what was flown in Assam with " sickle >> (sic) >> > and star on green background is an islamic symbol" >> > > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2009-April/018755.html >> > > >> > > In an earlier mail I had commented: >> > > >> > > """""" If this is factual, then the question arises for the Indian >> > Muslims that should they be thinking about using the Islamic Flag >> > without >> > the Crescent and Star so that it does not appear to be close to being >> > the >> > flag of Pakistan? """""" >> > > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2008-December/017016.html >> > > >> > > Just thinking aloud >> > > >> > > Kshmendra >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > _________________________________________ >> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > > Critiques & Collaborations >> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > > List archive: >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: >> > >> > >> > >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From yasir.media at gmail.com Wed May 6 14:23:29 2009 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?windows-1256?B?eWFzaXIgfu3HINPR?=) Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 13:53:29 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70905060105o14c49588q5391b6cf5530f1d2@mail.gmail.com> References: <562330.29752.qm@web90404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <597975.56733.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <6b79f1a70905060105o14c49588q5391b6cf5530f1d2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5af37bb0905060153y4e691d6bxa4b1f4d4671e5dfa@mail.gmail.com> it must also be a disgrace that you are speaking writing thinking and what else not, in Inglesi, another set of goras, following the chughtai speaking and persian speaking apparently chinese mongols & turks. maybe obama should now humilate bush by arranging quality time for him first in abughraib and then guantanamo, i'm sure modi would make a nice rendition too. thanks for this line of thinking. good going. On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 1:05 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Dear Kshemendra , > > As i have mentioned to you , you have a slave inside you . A salve which > you > have not been able to exorcised since centuries beginning with the Islamic > onslaught on Bharat. > > What makes Chancal a disgrace while as those who love to follow Arabic > things not a disgrace to India or Indian culture. > > Pawan > > > > > On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 1:21 PM, Kshmendra Kaul >wrote: > > > Dear Chanchal > > > > If you think you are a good Indian or a good Hindu you are totally > > mistaken. You are a disgrace to both. > > > > People like you are nothing but enemies of India who by word and action > do > > nothing but bring about divides in India and fracture it. > > > > Please do not copy any of your idiotic mails to me. > > > > Kshmendra > > > > --- On Wed, 5/6/09, chanchal malviya wrote: > > > > From: chanchal malviya > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims > > To: "M Javed" , kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > > Cc: "sarai list" > > Date: Wednesday, May 6, 2009, 9:31 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Indian Muslims are those whose forefathers betrayed with their own base > > foundation Hinduism - either out of fear or lust. > > Indian Muslims are those who historically didn't play a major role in > > Indian Independence, and rather took lead in Khilafat with Gandhi (the > > apostole of peace) to massacre over 10,000 Hindus in the name of God... > > Indian Muslims are those who established a thick line in 1947 that they > > cannot live with Hindus who unfortunately happens to be their own > ancestral > > brothers... > > India Muslims now have loosed their credibility of being a part of > > Nationalist attitude by publicly denying to accept National Anthem, > National > > Song and denying Bharat as maata... when these things should have nothing > to > > take with Hindus... but now slogans like 'Bharat maata ki Jai', 'Jana > gana > > mana', 'vande maatram'... are all part of only Hindu culture... > > Indian Muslims are now a partners of Terrorism, and by and large declared > > Terrorism... most of their leaders shout publicly that every Muslim > should > > be a terrorist with some logical background that terrorism should be for > > non-believers often purified through management language... > > Indian Muslims or any Muslim in this world (barring exceptions - 1 to 2 % > > of the population), has to re-establish their credibility that they are > > humans and worshipers of humanity first before unknown, unseen God who > > according to them hates, prepares fire of hell, prepared heaven with > houris > > and virgins, asks people to murder... > > > > WHO WILL SOLVE THIS IGNORANCE OF HATRED IN THE NAME OF GOD - ONLY > HINDUS... > > That is the reason Muslims have existed from over thousand years in > India, > > and Hindus and others have been eliminated from Islamic lands... > > Historically proven, demography of today proves this... > > > > One should not enforce their own intolerance upon Hindus in the name of > > Babri and Gujarat Riots... They must go back into 1000 years of History > > which created Babri.. Kashmir.. and Godhra... One must talk of CAUSE and > > not EFFECT alone... The Effect on Hindus are much deeper than anything > else > > in this world... > > > > The well integrated four Varnas - popularly known as Aryas - were divided > > and remains divided because of Invasion and Western Politics still ruling > > this nation... > > The ever free women of India were put under 'Ghunghat' for ever to hide > > their face from the Islamic looters... Brahmins had to impose child > marriage > > among Hindus because their girls were picked away at an early age in the > > name of 'Virgin' given by God to Islamic rapers... British took advantage > of > > this and teached the whole population that these are the raw culture of > > Hinduism... > > > > Unfortunate, the same Best Scientists, Philosophers, Pschologists and all > > failed to defeat Swami Vivekananda who put Hinduism on top of everything > on > > their land... Read him, read Hinduism from its scripture (and not from > the > > mouth of Dr. Zakir Naik)... and you will know that WORLD LIVES BECAUSE > > HINDUISM IS ALIVE EVEN IN ISLAM AND CHRISTIANITY... > > > > A person respecting his parents is Hinduism, A person loyarl to his > > Religous Guru is Hinduism, A person dedicated to his job is Hinduism, A > > person marrying and leading a stable family is Hinduism... A person > getting > > spiritual in line with God is Hinduism... > > You may change the books, induce impurity in the name of God in those > > books... but the truth will ever remain... The world exists because of > > Hinduism and the world will exist only as long as Hinduism is alive - > > directly or indirectly.... > > > > > > > > > > > > From: M Javed > > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > > Cc: sarai list > > Sent: Tuesday, May 5, 2009 5:38:01 PM > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims > > > > Dear Kshmendra > > > > Who is an Indian Muslim? > > > > We need to answer this before we can answer your "...should they be > > thinking about using the Islamic flag..." > > > > Javed > > > > > > > > On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 5:19 PM, Kshmendra Kaul > > wrote: > > > > > > QUOTE: > > > > > > It also carried drawings of two white and black flags, the former being > > the main flag of Holy Prophet Muhammad (Peace be Upon Him) and the latter > > his military standard. Even now, black-turbaned TNSM members carry the > small > > white and black flags as they walk ahead of Sufi Mohammad. ...... UNQUOTE > > > > > > This quote is from an article on Maulana Sufi Mohammad written by > > Rahimullah Yusufzai. > > > http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=175825 > > > > > > No green flag. No crescent and star on it. > > > > > > The green flag with the crescent and star on it which is used by Indian > > Muslims has often caused misunderstandings. > > > > > > One recent example has been Simi Garewal talking about Pakistani Flags > > being flown by Indian Muslims. She apologised later for having mistaken > the > > Islamic Flag of the Indian Muslims for the Pakistani Flag. > > > > > > The close resemblance between the 2 flags confused even > > Anupam Chakravartty, who inspite of video coverage from Times Now showing > it > > to be a Pakistani Flag, insisted that what was flown in Assam with " > sickle > > (sic) and star on green background is an islamic symbol" > > > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2009-April/018755.html > > > > > > In an earlier mail I had commented: > > > > > > """""" If this is factual, then the question arises for the Indian > > Muslims that should they be thinking about using the Islamic Flag without > > the Crescent and Star so that it does not appear to be close to being the > > flag of Pakistan? """""" > > > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2008-December/017016.html > > > > > > Just thinking aloud > > > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed May 6 14:24:43 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 14:24:43 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] DASHI-HAAR Message-ID: <6b79f1a70905060154r6c517a25u1681ca1da4f10620@mail.gmail.com> DASHI-HAAR By Syed Rasool Pompur Dashi-Haar is a 112-Page collection of Kashmiri Poems in 20"x30"x16" size, published by the renowned Kashmiri poet Shri Arjan Dev Majboor, twenty three years ago in 1983. It comprises of about 38 poems, eight ghazals (lyric), besides a translation of Allama Iqbal's poem: Digar Goon Hai Jahan Taroon Ki Gardish Tez Hai Saaqi" Besides using mothertongue as an essential and forceful vehicle of creative thought Shri Majboor writes in Hindi and Dogri also. An octagenarian-our elder and a younger contemporary of Mirza Ghulam Hassan Beg Arif, Dina Nath Nadim, Peerzada Ghulam Ahmad Mehjoor, Abdul Ahad Azad and Fazil Kashmiri Shri AD Majboor has all along been associated with the movement for the cultural, social, economic and political justice of the downtrodden and common people of Kashmir. The title 'Dashahar" relates to the historic tirtha held every ten years at the confluence of Jehlum and Sindh at Sumbal. A Chinar stands in the middle of Jehlum at that place. Majboor's poetry in the anthology under review is certainly an embodiment of universal human love, brotherhood and social equality, irrespective of caste, colour and creed. Miseries of people, irrespective of nature, have kept him constantly restless and in melancholy as he himself comments in his forward to the book. He has all through remained a protagonist of eternal human and social values. At times, he feels quite nostalgic about the socio-cultural heritage of his motherland in the form of composite culture facing extinction in modern technical and cultural advancement. Born in 1924 at Zanapur, a historic town, named after and built by the great Kashmiri King Zainul Abdin, Budshah (1420-70) as Kashmiri people call him with love and reverence. As a dependable and lovable neighbour, Shri Majboor is very well-known to me, with his traditional, simple and truthful lifestyle with human warmth and dedication. These are the qualities which make and shape him as a selfless and tireless human activist, as a progressive writer with a clear social commitment and vision: A tale of thousands of years of times and likes endless having, just ended He jumped into the Padamsar (Wular Lake) Whispering that the time has no today, and no tomorrow collect and collate the memories and adorn them with celestial union to create a new world" (Kathu Gor: Tale-Teller) Like his individual person bedecked with simplicity, his poetic diction is unambiguous, plain, refreshing nearest to the vernacular language, artistically fitted with local ethos, lore and legend: Life with affectionate glances tells them all to sing the songs of harmonious melodies to lift the waves above the celestial mansions (Sovdru-Bathis Peth-On the Seashore) I am a dauntless lover My heart is like a dotless mirror I have never hidden the truth. and presented darkness as light I could thus, never abandon eternal human love. I have to nourish and nurture the dew with eternal fir: to keep up the human dignity intact. and portray the spring of life in full bloom (Yi-Myon Oond Pokh--My surroundings) While going through the lines I can very well recall the distinct and effective style of recitation of poems by Majboor in poetic symposia conferences and other literary seminars. Throughout his career he has served as a dedicated, sincere and honest teacher. He is a successful orator too. Recalling his story in Lahore prior to partition in 1947 he feels nostalgic while peeping through the memory window: Yes! This is the same city, Sky of steel bridges, for which in haste, I left behind The highest mountain peaks The heavenly circles of Devdaar woods The snow silver head gears and yearning for vast blossoming flowers - aside I passionately loved it The peaceful and delightful environs of Lahore-enchant me Lahore-where Iqbal touched heights of heavens recollecting the memories Make me restless My footprints Ragas of my musical waves My buoyant youth Human love and sincerity Making a series of Mountain peaks - into a garland of love - {(Lohoor (Lahore)} Kus Kari Bawath (who will communicate), Tsitr-Kar (The Painter), Kalpana (imagination), Shinu-Mohniv (The snow man), Padi (The Feet), Rqs. Jaari (The dance goes on), Wuliodur (Agony), Lekhi Kya (what will he write), Amar (Ambition,), Titsh Kath Chanu (That is not the truth), Kol (The stream), Harud (The autumn) and other shorter poems and gazals present in Dashahaar form an inseparable component of eternal, human love and brotherhood passionately advocated and dedicatedly represented by Shri AD Majboor, thus making it more relevant even for today. Majboor aptly remembers Lal Ded saying: You are the hidden treasure of Kashmiri Language You are the flying boat of the Universe Burning Vyeth (river) of eternal misery And morning breeze for human civilisations! [Lal-Dedi Nazranu (To Lal Ded)] Dashi-haar undoubtedly is a plausible and lovely collection of poems of Majboor, requiring the attention of discernible connoisseurs of Kashmiri poetry. Strictly selected or restricted, single volume of Kashmiri poetry comprising of the representative poems. *(The author was Editor Kashmiri, “Sheeraza” Academy of Art, Culture and Languages. He is a noted poet, essayist and well-known researcher. He has published Kashmiri monographs on Abdul Sattar Ranjoor, Chaman Lal Chaman, PN Pushp. His notable publications include Aabgeenay (2005) - Urdu: articles on and about Kashmiri Culture and Literature; Wony For Gatshu: Whither shall I go now (Short Stories 1986) etc. He has also been associated in compilation and editing of Dictionaries, Encyclopaedia etc. brought out by J&K Cultural Academy from time to time. Source: Kashmir Sentinel From chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Wed May 6 14:25:29 2009 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com (chanchal malviya) Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 01:55:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims In-Reply-To: <5af37bb0905060044u117f2486q9efc274d2ba066a5@mail.gmail.com> References: <74892.42762.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <562330.29752.qm@web90404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <5af37bb0905060044u117f2486q9efc274d2ba066a5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <458944.84971.qm@web90407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> What is wrong in Kamasutra... It is a Science of Sex... to be practiced during Grihastha Aashram.... Sex is not a closed deal for Hindus... It is a natural science... and who will deny that the whole creation of the Universe lies on this very concept of Sex.... Are Muslims born without sex... and is their own parental sexual positions different from the science of kamasutra.... hindus are not bigotry... muslims rape Hindu women by order of God and criticize Kamasutra... Tulsidas told - Bhikhari upwaas kare to use upwaas nahi kehate... Muslims talking about Kamasutra is hopeless... Because they are by order of God allowed to marry many and hold many... Do not talk of the maturity of Hinduism towards which Science is bound to move.... From where has this concept of 4.3 billion years of earth's age come... it is from Hinduism... if you do not believe Hindu book, read Akbarnama where author has said about Hindu calculation and mentioned about this.... he told it crazy but now science is saying the same thing... the beginning of all scientific theories are now merging with Hinduism... which will be criticized by Religions... because these Religions want to throw away God..and do all crimes.. and force God to forgive them.. and make the sufferers further suffer.... ________________________________ From: yasir ~يا سر To: Sarai Reader-list Sent: Wednesday, May 6, 2009 1:14:38 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims [satire] clap clap clap clap thanks. what a balanced view you have written. that was very enlightening as hinduism is/out to be. because i had thought hinduism was the hari krishnas, kamasutras, ajantas, temple prostitution and naked fakirs. . in addition to the baniyas fleecing people and tribals dancing around fires. and who wants to wait for houris anyway. when you have the jantar mantar. i like saffron. we use it in cooking. and we have it when we return from bombing the americans. as you predicted rightly, hindus are next as youve gotten a taste. ie if you harrass the locals too much and we start getting complaints, we are coming from across the northwest as is the custom for a a few thousand years. what makes u even think you can win or even hold out for one second. namaste stay safe On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 9:01 AM, chanchal malviya wrote: > Indian Muslims are those whose forefathers betrayed with their own base > foundation Hinduism - either out of fear or lust. > Indian Muslims are those who historically didn't play a major role in > Indian Independence, and rather took lead in Khilafat with Gandhi (the > apostole of peace) to massacre over 10,000 Hindus in the name of God... > Indian Muslims are those who established a thick line in 1947 that they > cannot live with Hindus who unfortunately happens to be their own ancestral > brothers... > India Muslims now have loosed their credibility of being a part of > Nationalist attitude by publicly denying to accept National Anthem, National > Song and denying Bharat as maata... when these things should have nothing to > take with Hindus... but now slogans like 'Bharat maata ki Jai', 'Jana gana > mana', 'vande maatram'... are all part of only Hindu culture... > Indian Muslims are now a partners of Terrorism, and by and large declared > Terrorism... most of their leaders shout publicly that every Muslim should > be a terrorist with some logical background that terrorism should be for > non-believers often purified through management language... > Indian Muslims or any Muslim in this world (barring exceptions - 1 to 2 % > of the population), has to re-establish their credibility that they are > humans and worshipers of humanity first before unknown, unseen God who > according to them hates, prepares fire of hell, prepared heaven with houris > and virgins, asks people to murder... > > WHO WILL SOLVE THIS IGNORANCE OF HATRED IN THE NAME OF GOD - ONLY HINDUS... > That is the reason Muslims have existed from over thousand years in India, > and Hindus and others have been eliminated from Islamic lands... > Historically proven, demography of today proves this... > > One should not enforce their own intolerance upon Hindus in the name of > Babri and Gujarat Riots... They must go back into 1000 years of History > which created Babri.. Kashmir.. and Godhra... One must talk of CAUSE and > not EFFECT alone... The Effect on Hindus are much deeper than anything else > in this world... > > The well integrated four Varnas - popularly known as Aryas - were divided > and remains divided because of Invasion and Western Politics still ruling > this nation... > The ever free women of India were put under 'Ghunghat' for ever to hide > their face from the Islamic looters... Brahmins had to impose child marriage > among Hindus because their girls were picked away at an early age in the > name of 'Virgin' given by God to Islamic rapers... British took advantage of > this and teached the whole population that these are the raw culture of > Hinduism... > > Unfortunate, the same Best Scientists, Philosophers, Pschologists and all > failed to defeat Swami Vivekananda who put Hinduism on top of everything on > their land... Read him, read Hinduism from its scripture (and not from the > mouth of Dr. Zakir Naik)... and you will know that WORLD LIVES BECAUSE > HINDUISM IS ALIVE EVEN IN ISLAM AND CHRISTIANITY... > > A person respecting his parents is Hinduism, A person loyarl to his > Religous Guru is Hinduism, A person dedicated to his job is Hinduism, A > person marrying and leading a stable family is Hinduism... A person getting > spiritual in line with God is Hinduism... > You may change the books, induce impurity in the name of God in those > books... but the truth will ever remain... The world exists because of > Hinduism and the world will exist only as long as Hinduism is alive - > directly or indirectly.... > > > > > ________________________________ > From: M Javed > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > Cc: sarai list > Sent: Tuesday, May 5, 2009 5:38:01 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims > > Dear Kshmendra > > Who is an Indian Muslim? > > We need to answer this before we can answer your "...should they be > thinking about using the Islamic flag..." > > Javed > > > > On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 5:19 PM, Kshmendra Kaul > wrote: > > > > QUOTE: > > > > It also carried drawings of two white and black flags, the former being > the main flag of Holy Prophet Muhammad (Peace be Upon Him) and the latter > his military standard. Even now, black-turbaned TNSM members carry the small > white and black flags as they walk ahead of Sufi Mohammad. ...... UNQUOTE > > > > This quote is from an article on Maulana Sufi Mohammad written by > Rahimullah Yusufzai. > > http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=175825 > > > > No green flag. No crescent and star on it. > > > > The green flag with the crescent and star on it which is used by Indian > Muslims has often caused misunderstandings. > > > > One recent example has been Simi Garewal talking about Pakistani Flags > being flown by Indian Muslims. She apologised later for having mistaken the > Islamic Flag of the Indian Muslims for the Pakistani Flag. > > > > The close resemblance between the 2 flags confused even Anupam > Chakravartty, who inspite of video coverage from Times Now showing it to be > a Pakistani Flag, insisted that what was flown in Assam with " sickle (sic) > and star on green background is an islamic symbol" > > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2009-April/018755.html > > > > In an earlier mail I had commented: > > > > """""" If this is factual, then the question arises for the Indian > Muslims that should they be thinking about using the Islamic Flag without > the Crescent and Star so that it does not appear to be close to being the > flag of Pakistan? """""" > > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2008-December/017016.html > > > > Just thinking aloud > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Wed May 6 14:29:39 2009 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com (chanchal malviya) Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 01:59:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims In-Reply-To: <597975.56733.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <597975.56733.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <570198.26342.qm@web90402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I am not copying the mail to you... It is through the network it is reaching you.. and I am not the modifier... And please... If you do not have the gut to accept the Truth.. do not use words like Idiotic... I know who is fracturing India... You will know only when sword will reach your throat... however, it will hardly matter.. you have already changed your father (Dharma)... Why don't you give a fair trial of Gandhiji.... Gandhiji used to read Quran in Temples... But he never committed the mistake of reading Gita in Masjids... why don't you complete the work of Gandhiji and prove that I am dividing... and that division don't pre-exist.... Please do it once and then talk to me... and do not talk to me what you never did... Go and live in Kashmir or area where Hindus are not more than 10%.. and then talk to me.... ________________________________ From: Kshmendra Kaul To: M Javed ; chanchal malviya Cc: sarai list Sent: Wednesday, May 6, 2009 1:21:31 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims Dear Chanchal If you think you are a good Indian or a good Hindu you are totally mistaken. You are a disgrace to both. People like you are nothing but enemies of India who by word and action do nothing but bring about divides in India and fracture it. Please do not copy any of your idiotic mails to me. Kshmendra --- On Wed, 5/6/09, chanchal malviya wrote: From: chanchal malviya Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims To: "M Javed" , kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Cc: "sarai list" Date: Wednesday, May 6, 2009, 9:31 AM Indian Muslims are those whose forefathers betrayed with their own base foundation Hinduism - either out of fear or lust. Indian Muslims are those who historically didn't play a major role in Indian Independence, and rather took lead in Khilafat with Gandhi (the apostole of peace) to massacre over 10,000 Hindus in the name of God... Indian Muslims are those who established a thick line in 1947 that they cannot live with Hindus who unfortunately happens to be their own ancestral brothers... India Muslims now have loosed their credibility of being a part of Nationalist attitude by publicly denying to accept National Anthem, National Song and denying Bharat as maata... when these things should have nothing to take with Hindus... but now slogans like 'Bharat maata ki Jai', 'Jana gana mana', 'vande maatram'... are all part of only Hindu culture... Indian Muslims are now a partners of Terrorism, and by and large declared Terrorism... most of their leaders shout publicly that every Muslim should be a terrorist with some logical background that terrorism should be for non-believers often purified through management language... Indian Muslims or any Muslim in this world (barring exceptions - 1 to 2 % of the population), has to re-establish their credibility that they are humans and worshipers of humanity first before unknown, unseen God who according to them hates, prepares fire of hell, prepared heaven with houris and virgins, asks people to murder... WHO WILL SOLVE THIS IGNORANCE OF HATRED IN THE NAME OF GOD - ONLY HINDUS... That is the reason Muslims have existed from over thousand years in India, and Hindus and others have been eliminated from Islamic lands... Historically proven, demography of today proves this... One should not enforce their own intolerance upon Hindus in the name of Babri and Gujarat Riots... They must go back into 1000 years of History which created Babri.. Kashmir.. and Godhra... One must talk of CAUSE and not EFFECT alone... The Effect on Hindus are much deeper than anything else in this world... The well integrated four Varnas - popularly known as Aryas - were divided and remains divided because of Invasion and Western Politics still ruling this nation... The ever free women of India were put under 'Ghunghat' for ever to hide their face from the Islamic looters... Brahmins had to impose child marriage among Hindus because their girls were picked away at an early age in the name of 'Virgin' given by God to Islamic rapers... British took advantage of this and teached the whole population that these are the raw culture of Hinduism... Unfortunate, the same Best Scientists, Philosophers, Pschologists and all failed to defeat Swami Vivekananda who put Hinduism on top of everything on their land... Read him, read Hinduism from its scripture (and not from the mouth of Dr. Zakir Naik)... and you will know that WORLD LIVES BECAUSE HINDUISM IS ALIVE EVEN IN ISLAM AND CHRISTIANITY... A person respecting his parents is Hinduism, A person loyarl to his Religous Guru is Hinduism, A person dedicated to his job is Hinduism, A person marrying and leading a stable family is Hinduism... A person getting spiritual in line with God is Hinduism... You may change the books, induce impurity in the name of God in those books... but the truth will ever remain... The world exists because of Hinduism and the world will exist only as long as Hinduism is alive - directly or indirectly.... ________________________________ From: M Javed To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Cc: sarai list Sent: Tuesday, May 5, 2009 5:38:01 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims Dear Kshmendra Who is an Indian Muslim? We need to answer this before we can answer your "...should they be thinking about using the Islamic flag..." Javed On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 5:19 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > QUOTE: > > It also carried drawings of two white and black flags, the former being the main flag of Holy Prophet Muhammad (Peace be Upon Him) and the latter his military standard. Even now, black-turbaned TNSM members carry the small white and black flags as they walk ahead of Sufi Mohammad. ...... UNQUOTE > > This quote is from an article on Maulana Sufi Mohammad written by Rahimullah Yusufzai. > http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=175825 > > No green flag. No crescent and star on it. > > The green flag with the crescent and star on it which is used by Indian Muslims has often caused misunderstandings. > > One recent example has been Simi Garewal talking about Pakistani Flags being flown by Indian Muslims. She apologised later for having mistaken the Islamic Flag of the Indian Muslims for the Pakistani Flag. > > The close resemblance between the 2 flags confused even Anupam Chakravartty, who inspite of video coverage from Times Now showing it to be a Pakistani Flag, insisted that what was flown in Assam with " sickle (sic) and star on green background is an islamic symbol" > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2009-April/018755.html > > In an earlier mail I had commented: > > """""" If this is factual, then the question arises for the Indian Muslims that should they be thinking about using the Islamic Flag without the Crescent and Star so that it does not appear to be close to being the flag of Pakistan? """""" > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2008-December/017016.html > > Just thinking aloud > > Kshmendra > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed May 6 14:42:15 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 02:12:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70905060105o14c49588q5391b6cf5530f1d2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <473216.45893.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Pawan   Yes you have once before in this List drawn my attention to the 'slave' in me.   Yes I try to be a 'slave' to rationality where reason is the instrument best suited for analysing a situation.   Yes I try to be a 'slave' to my passions where it brings me the greatest satisfaction as long as it does not harm anyone else or harms me.   And yes I am a 'slave' to my firm belief that anyone who by word or action seeks to or actually brings harm to India (whether by design or foolish ignorance) is an enemy of India and is my enemy. It does not matter whether such a person (or group) is Hindu, or Muslim, or Christian, or Sikh, or Atheist, or Agnostic  or Capitalist, or Communist or whatever.    Indian culture is not Hindu culture.Hindu culural influences are just one part alongwith the influences from many other sources including Islamic. You or I or Chanchal cannot change that. Any attempt to force such a change will only lead to the destruction / fragmentation of India. Is that what you want, or Chanchal wants by trying to reinforce divides between Hindus and Muslims?   For that matter there no such thing as Hindu Culture either. All cultures evolve with time, they are everchanging by themselves and by incorporating influences of other cultures with which they interact or which may have been foisted upon them. There is no getting away from that. Those who continue to live in some notional past deserve to live only in that notional past. There is no place for them in the today. Not in my India.   Pawan you and I are both Kashmiri Pandits. Both of us are conscious of the slow but sure erasure taking place of that identity. But consider that which you and I recognise as the Kashmiri Pandit (KP) culture.   - Is the shirt, trouser, (neck)tie KP (or Hindu) culture? - Is the Samovar KP (or Hindu) culture? - Is the Roganjosh or Yakhin KP (or Hindu) culture? - Is Mogil Chai KP (or Hindu) culture?   All of these are Imports that are dear to KPs today and recognised as part of KP culture.   Take some of the finest writing by KPs (that we value as a part of KP culture) and see the liberal use of Urdu and Persian in it. Is that KP (or Hindu) culture?   Pawan, I love my Urdu poetry, I love Qawwalis, I love Naats (sung in praise of Mohammed). If that makes me a 'slave' in your eyes, I am more than happy to be such a 'slave'   Kshmendra     --- On Wed, 5/6/09, Pawan Durani wrote: From: Pawan Durani Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Cc: "M Javed" , "chanchal malviya" , "sarai list" Date: Wednesday, May 6, 2009, 1:35 PM Dear Kshemendra ,   As i have mentioned to you , you have a slave inside you . A salve which you have not been able to exorcised since centuries beginning with the Islamic onslaught on Bharat.   What makes Chancal a disgrace while as those who love to follow Arabic things not a disgrace to India or Indian culture.   Pawan     On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 1:21 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: Dear Chanchal   If you think you are a good Indian or a good Hindu you are totally mistaken. You are a disgrace to both.   People like you are nothing but enemies of India who by word and action do nothing but bring about divides in India and fracture it.   Please do not copy any of your idiotic mails to me.   Kshmendra  --- On Wed, 5/6/09, chanchal malviya wrote: From: chanchal malviya Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims To: "M Javed" , kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Cc: "sarai list" Date: Wednesday, May 6, 2009, 9:31 AM Indian Muslims are those whose forefathers betrayed with their own base foundation Hinduism - either out of fear or lust. Indian Muslims are those who historically didn't play a major role in Indian Independence, and rather took lead in Khilafat with Gandhi (the apostole of peace) to massacre over 10,000 Hindus in the name of God... Indian Muslims are those who established a thick line in 1947 that they cannot live with Hindus who unfortunately happens to be their own ancestral brothers... India Muslims now have loosed their credibility of being a part of Nationalist attitude by publicly denying to accept National Anthem, National Song and denying Bharat as maata... when these things should have nothing to take with Hindus... but now slogans like 'Bharat maata ki Jai', 'Jana gana mana', 'vande maatram'... are all part of only Hindu culture... Indian Muslims are now a partners of Terrorism, and by and large declared Terrorism... most of their leaders shout publicly that every Muslim should be a terrorist with some logical background that terrorism should be for non-believers often purified through management language... Indian Muslims or any Muslim in this world (barring exceptions - 1 to 2 % of the population), has to re-establish their credibility that they are humans and worshipers of humanity first before unknown, unseen God who according to them hates, prepares fire of hell, prepared heaven with houris and virgins, asks people to murder...   WHO WILL SOLVE THIS IGNORANCE OF HATRED IN THE NAME OF GOD - ONLY HINDUS... That is the reason Muslims have existed from over thousand years in India, and Hindus and others have been eliminated from Islamic lands... Historically proven, demography of today proves this... One should not enforce their own intolerance upon Hindus in the name of Babri and Gujarat Riots... They must go back into 1000 years of History which created Babri.. Kashmir.. and Godhra...  One must talk of CAUSE and not EFFECT alone... The Effect on Hindus are much deeper than anything else in this world... The well integrated four Varnas - popularly known as Aryas - were divided and remains divided because of Invasion and Western Politics still ruling this nation... The ever free women of India were put under 'Ghunghat' for ever to hide their face from the Islamic looters... Brahmins had to impose child marriage among Hindus because their girls were picked away at an early age in the name of 'Virgin' given by God to Islamic rapers... British took advantage of this and teached the whole population that these are the raw culture of Hinduism... Unfortunate, the same Best Scientists, Philosophers, Pschologists and all failed to defeat Swami Vivekananda who put Hinduism on top of everything on their land... Read him, read Hinduism from its scripture (and not from the mouth of Dr. Zakir Naik)... and you will know that WORLD LIVES BECAUSE HINDUISM IS ALIVE EVEN IN ISLAM AND CHRISTIANITY...  A person respecting his parents is Hinduism, A person loyarl to his Religous Guru is Hinduism, A person dedicated to his job is Hinduism, A person marrying and leading a stable family is Hinduism... A person getting spiritual in line with God is Hinduism... You may change the books, induce impurity in the name of God in those books... but the truth will ever remain... The world exists because of Hinduism and the world will exist only as long as Hinduism is alive - directly or indirectly.... From: M Javed To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Cc: sarai list Sent: Tuesday, May 5, 2009 5:38:01 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims Dear Kshmendra Who is an Indian Muslim? We need to answer this before we can answer your "...should they be thinking about using the Islamic flag..." Javed On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 5:19 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > QUOTE: > > It also carried drawings of two white and black flags, the former being the main flag of Holy Prophet Muhammad (Peace be Upon Him) and the latter his military standard. Even now, black-turbaned TNSM members carry the small white and black flags as they walk ahead of Sufi Mohammad. ...... UNQUOTE > > This quote is from an article on Maulana Sufi Mohammad written by Rahimullah Yusufzai. > http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=175825 > > No green flag. No crescent and star on it. > > The green flag with the crescent and star on it which is used by Indian Muslims has often caused misunderstandings. > > One recent example has been Simi Garewal talking about Pakistani Flags being flown by Indian Muslims. She apologised later for having mistaken the Islamic Flag of the Indian Muslims for the Pakistani Flag. > > The close resemblance between the 2 flags confused even Anupam Chakravartty, who inspite of video coverage from Times Now showing it to be a Pakistani Flag, insisted that what was flown in Assam with " sickle (sic) and star on green background  is an islamic symbol" > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2009-April/018755.html > > In an earlier mail I had commented: > > """""" If this is factual, then the question arises for the Indian Muslims that should they be thinking about using the Islamic Flag without the Crescent and Star so that it does not appear to be close to being the flag of Pakistan? """""" > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2008-December/017016.html > > Just thinking aloud > > Kshmendra > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: From c.anupam at gmail.com Wed May 6 15:17:12 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 15:17:12 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims In-Reply-To: <458944.84971.qm@web90407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <74892.42762.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <562330.29752.qm@web90404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <5af37bb0905060044u117f2486q9efc274d2ba066a5@mail.gmail.com> <458944.84971.qm@web90407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <341380d00905060247h501dfa4clcc3c3c2b1c65280c@mail.gmail.com> Dear chanchal, I think you forgot to mention that modern chemistry has its roots in Arabia, so does the understanding of modern geography especially for sailors from which thales borrowed was of semetic origin. since, you are close to hindutva vadis, kindly tell us why VHP leader ashok singhal is mostly in america and uk -- what is his business there if as you say that hindutva vadis are internalising their struggle here? it is easier to get votes by fanning out faith-based issues but in that process one ends up cheating their personal gods, if you know what i mean. it is shame that you are accusing one whole community because some criminals, some shrewd individuals on some innocent. if we go by how you are describing these acts, then gujarat riots, kandhamal was planned by the hindus and whole of hindu community is responsible for that. but we dont do so because a large number of hindus do not want to be a part of these acts -- they want to carry on with their daily lives, even if it is mundane. i dont see your ideas being different from that of al-qaeda. -anupam On 5/6/09, chanchal malviya wrote: > > What is wrong in Kamasutra... It is a Science of Sex... to be practiced > during Grihastha Aashram.... > Sex is not a closed deal for Hindus... It is a natural science... and who > will deny that the whole creation of the Universe lies on this very concept > of Sex.... > > Are Muslims born without sex... and is their own parental sexual positions > different from the science of kamasutra.... > hindus are not bigotry... muslims rape Hindu women by order of God and > criticize Kamasutra... > Tulsidas told - Bhikhari upwaas kare to use upwaas nahi kehate... > Muslims talking about Kamasutra is hopeless... Because they are by order of > God allowed to marry many and hold many... > > Do not talk of the maturity of Hinduism towards which Science is bound to > move.... From where has this concept of 4.3 billion years of earth's age > come... it is from Hinduism... if you do not believe Hindu book, read > Akbarnama where author has said about Hindu calculation and mentioned about > this.... he told it crazy but now science is saying the same thing... the > beginning of all scientific theories are now merging with Hinduism... which > will be criticized by Religions... because these Religions want to throw > away God..and do all crimes.. and force God to forgive them.. and make the > sufferers further suffer.... > > > > > ________________________________ > From: yasir ~يا سر > To: Sarai Reader-list > Sent: Wednesday, May 6, 2009 1:14:38 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims > > [satire] > > clap clap clap clap > > thanks. what a balanced view you have written. that was very enlightening > as > hinduism is/out to be. > > because i had thought hinduism was the hari krishnas, kamasutras, ajantas, > temple prostitution and naked fakirs. . in addition to the baniyas fleecing > people and tribals dancing around fires. and who wants to wait for houris > anyway. when you have the jantar mantar. > > i like saffron. we use it in cooking. and we have it when we return from > bombing the americans. as you predicted rightly, hindus are next as youve > gotten a taste. ie if you harrass the locals too much and we start getting > complaints, we are coming from across the northwest as is the custom for a > a > few thousand years. what makes u even think you can win or even hold out > for one second. > > namaste > stay safe > > > > > On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 9:01 AM, chanchal malviya < > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > > wrote: > > > Indian Muslims are those whose forefathers betrayed with their own base > > foundation Hinduism - either out of fear or lust. > > Indian Muslims are those who historically didn't play a major role in > > Indian Independence, and rather took lead in Khilafat with Gandhi (the > > apostole of peace) to massacre over 10,000 Hindus in the name of God... > > Indian Muslims are those who established a thick line in 1947 that they > > cannot live with Hindus who unfortunately happens to be their own > ancestral > > brothers... > > India Muslims now have loosed their credibility of being a part of > > Nationalist attitude by publicly denying to accept National Anthem, > National > > Song and denying Bharat as maata... when these things should have nothing > to > > take with Hindus... but now slogans like 'Bharat maata ki Jai', 'Jana > gana > > mana', 'vande maatram'... are all part of only Hindu culture... > > Indian Muslims are now a partners of Terrorism, and by and large declared > > Terrorism... most of their leaders shout publicly that every Muslim > should > > be a terrorist with some logical background that terrorism should be for > > non-believers often purified through management language... > > Indian Muslims or any Muslim in this world (barring exceptions - 1 to 2 % > > of the population), has to re-establish their credibility that they are > > humans and worshipers of humanity first before unknown, unseen God who > > according to them hates, prepares fire of hell, prepared heaven with > houris > > and virgins, asks people to murder... > > > > WHO WILL SOLVE THIS IGNORANCE OF HATRED IN THE NAME OF GOD - ONLY > HINDUS... > > That is the reason Muslims have existed from over thousand years in > India, > > and Hindus and others have been eliminated from Islamic lands... > > Historically proven, demography of today proves this... > > > > One should not enforce their own intolerance upon Hindus in the name of > > Babri and Gujarat Riots... They must go back into 1000 years of History > > which created Babri.. Kashmir.. and Godhra... One must talk of CAUSE and > > not EFFECT alone... The Effect on Hindus are much deeper than anything > else > > in this world... > > > > The well integrated four Varnas - popularly known as Aryas - were divided > > and remains divided because of Invasion and Western Politics still ruling > > this nation... > > The ever free women of India were put under 'Ghunghat' for ever to hide > > their face from the Islamic looters... Brahmins had to impose child > marriage > > among Hindus because their girls were picked away at an early age in the > > name of 'Virgin' given by God to Islamic rapers... British took advantage > of > > this and teached the whole population that these are the raw culture of > > Hinduism... > > > > Unfortunate, the same Best Scientists, Philosophers, Pschologists and all > > failed to defeat Swami Vivekananda who put Hinduism on top of everything > on > > their land... Read him, read Hinduism from its scripture (and not from > the > > mouth of Dr. Zakir Naik)... and you will know that WORLD LIVES BECAUSE > > HINDUISM IS ALIVE EVEN IN ISLAM AND CHRISTIANITY... > > > > A person respecting his parents is Hinduism, A person loyarl to his > > Religous Guru is Hinduism, A person dedicated to his job is Hinduism, A > > person marrying and leading a stable family is Hinduism... A person > getting > > spiritual in line with God is Hinduism... > > You may change the books, induce impurity in the name of God in those > > books... but the truth will ever remain... The world exists because of > > Hinduism and the world will exist only as long as Hinduism is alive - > > directly or indirectly.... > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: M Javed > > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > > Cc: sarai list > > Sent: Tuesday, May 5, 2009 5:38:01 PM > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims > > > > Dear Kshmendra > > > > Who is an Indian Muslim? > > > > We need to answer this before we can answer your "...should they be > > thinking about using the Islamic flag..." > > > > Javed > > > > > > > > On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 5:19 PM, Kshmendra Kaul > > wrote: > > > > > > QUOTE: > > > > > > It also carried drawings of two white and black flags, the former being > > the main flag of Holy Prophet Muhammad (Peace be Upon Him) and the latter > > his military standard. Even now, black-turbaned TNSM members carry the > small > > white and black flags as they walk ahead of Sufi Mohammad. ...... UNQUOTE > > > > > > This quote is from an article on Maulana Sufi Mohammad written by > > Rahimullah Yusufzai. > > > http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=175825 > > > > > > No green flag. No crescent and star on it. > > > > > > The green flag with the crescent and star on it which is used by Indian > > Muslims has often caused misunderstandings. > > > > > > One recent example has been Simi Garewal talking about Pakistani Flags > > being flown by Indian Muslims. She apologised later for having mistaken > the > > Islamic Flag of the Indian Muslims for the Pakistani Flag. > > > > > > The close resemblance between the 2 flags confused even Anupam > > Chakravartty, who inspite of video coverage from Times Now showing it to > be > > a Pakistani Flag, insisted that what was flown in Assam with " sickle > (sic) > > and star on green background is an islamic symbol" > > > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2009-April/018755.html > > > > > > In an earlier mail I had commented: > > > > > > """""" If this is factual, then the question arises for the Indian > > Muslims that should they be thinking about using the Islamic Flag without > > the Crescent and Star so that it does not appear to be close to being the > > flag of Pakistan? """""" > > > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2008-December/017016.html > > > > > > Just thinking aloud > > > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Wed May 6 15:28:41 2009 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com (chanchal malviya) Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 02:58:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims In-Reply-To: <473216.45893.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <473216.45893.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <52564.24593.qm@web90408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Who told you Kashmindra that I want to change India.... You are wrong.... I simply want to love India... not the way you do.... but the way I do love my family.... I cannot allow or even think of saying that my father is same as yours.... no.. never... I would die rather.... I would definitely say... your father is great... may be greater than mine.. he is as respectable as my own father... But..but... he is not my father... my father is, for me, greater than god.... I love my family in this way.... and I love my country in the same way.... For my country.... my mother is my motherland Bharat maat.... and my father is Sanatan dharma... with whom my mother had been identified since ages.... Despite of so many kingdoms, the sanatam dharma for the whole land was the father... And who told you India is not a Hindu culture... Hindu existed in this country since the name of Hindukush... and if you think this name was given by British... go back to the books written by Muslims some 800 years ago... they used to call us Hindus, as we lived on eastern side of the dividing mountain.... you can chose to call us Sanatan Dharma... that makes us more pure... we call ourselves Hindus because we are not Muslims, nor Christians... but are a segregated group of humans who understood only one Religion - Humanity... we understood only two parts of good and bad.. Dharma and Adharma... Unfortunately, somebody like you came and made us Religious group.. and took away the humanity from Hindus leaving behind the communal part which actually do not exist... and which exist in secularism which can support all attrocities on Hindus but could not tolerate any reaction of Hindus.... This land of Sadhhoos as produced Ten Gurus of Sikhs as Hindu Sadhhooos... Please do not separate Sikhs from us... History knows the very foundation of Sikhs was there to protect Hinduism... If the Invaders would have been so loving.. Sikh would not have existed... But you people not only started calling Sikh as a religion, but also separated it from Hinduism... First go an love your house, love your forefather, love the culture that they had followed... culture that was time-tested to hold families after families.... you are talking of a culture which has not learnt till date to hold on a single family... there father changes like clothes... and that is what you are trying to do to our Bharat maata..... I know you must be a supporter of M.F.Hussain's painting of nude Bharat mata... I am sure you must have keept one on your walls..... ________________________________ From: Kshmendra Kaul To: Pawan Durani Cc: sarai list Sent: Wednesday, May 6, 2009 2:42:15 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims Dear Pawan Yes you have once before in this List drawn my attention to the 'slave' in me. Yes I try to be a 'slave' to rationality where reason is the instrument best suited for analysing a situation. Yes I try to be a 'slave' to my passions where it brings me the greatest satisfaction as long as it does not harm anyone else or harms me. And yes I am a 'slave' to my firm belief that anyone who by word or action seeks to or actually brings harm to India (whether by design or foolish ignorance) is an enemy of India and is my enemy. It does not matter whether such a person (or group) is Hindu, or Muslim, or Christian, or Sikh, or Atheist, or Agnostic or Capitalist, or Communist or whatever. Indian culture is not Hindu culture.Hindu culural influences are just one part alongwith the influences from many other sources including Islamic. You or I or Chanchal cannot change that. Any attempt to force such a change will only lead to the destruction / fragmentation of India. Is that what you want, or Chanchal wants by trying to reinforce divides between Hindus and Muslims? For that matter there no such thing as Hindu Culture either. All cultures evolve with time, they are everchanging by themselves and by incorporating influences of other cultures with which they interact or which may have been foisted upon them. There is no getting away from that. Those who continue to live in some notional past deserve to live only in that notional past. There is no place for them in the today. Not in my India. Pawan you and I are both Kashmiri Pandits. Both of us are conscious of the slow but sure erasure taking place of that identity. But consider that which you and I recognise as the Kashmiri Pandit (KP) culture. - Is the shirt, trouser, (neck)tie KP (or Hindu) culture? - Is the Samovar KP (or Hindu) culture? - Is the Roganjosh or Yakhin KP (or Hindu) culture? - Is Mogil Chai KP (or Hindu) culture? All of these are Imports that are dear to KPs today and recognised as part of KP culture. Take some of the finest writing by KPs (that we value as a part of KP culture) and see the liberal use of Urdu and Persian in it. Is that KP (or Hindu) culture? Pawan, I love my Urdu poetry, I love Qawwalis, I love Naats (sung in praise of Mohammed). If that makes me a 'slave' in your eyes, I am more than happy to be such a 'slave' Kshmendra --- On Wed, 5/6/09, Pawan Durani wrote: From: Pawan Durani Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Cc: "M Javed" , "chanchal malviya" , "sarai list" Date: Wednesday, May 6, 2009, 1:35 PM Dear Kshemendra , As i have mentioned to you , you have a slave inside you . A salve which you have not been able to exorcised since centuries beginning with the Islamic onslaught on Bharat. What makes Chancal a disgrace while as those who love to follow Arabic things not a disgrace to India or Indian culture. Pawan On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 1:21 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: Dear Chanchal If you think you are a good Indian or a good Hindu you are totally mistaken. You are a disgrace to both. People like you are nothing but enemies of India who by word and action do nothing but bring about divides in India and fracture it. Please do not copy any of your idiotic mails to me. Kshmendra --- On Wed, 5/6/09, chanchal malviya wrote: From: chanchal malviya Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims To: "M Javed" , kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Cc: "sarai list" Date: Wednesday, May 6, 2009, 9:31 AM Indian Muslims are those whose forefathers betrayed with their own base foundation Hinduism - either out of fear or lust. Indian Muslims are those who historically didn't play a major role in Indian Independence, and rather took lead in Khilafat with Gandhi (the apostole of peace) to massacre over 10,000 Hindus in the name of God... Indian Muslims are those who established a thick line in 1947 that they cannot live with Hindus who unfortunately happens to be their own ancestral brothers... India Muslims now have loosed their credibility of being a part of Nationalist attitude by publicly denying to accept National Anthem, National Song and denying Bharat as maata... when these things should have nothing to take with Hindus... but now slogans like 'Bharat maata ki Jai', 'Jana gana mana', 'vande maatram'... are all part of only Hindu culture... Indian Muslims are now a partners of Terrorism, and by and large declared Terrorism... most of their leaders shout publicly that every Muslim should be a terrorist with some logical background that terrorism should be for non-believers often purified through management language... Indian Muslims or any Muslim in this world (barring exceptions - 1 to 2 % of the population), has to re-establish their credibility that they are humans and worshipers of humanity first before unknown, unseen God who according to them hates, prepares fire of hell, prepared heaven with houris and virgins, asks people to murder... WHO WILL SOLVE THIS IGNORANCE OF HATRED IN THE NAME OF GOD - ONLY HINDUS... That is the reason Muslims have existed from over thousand years in India, and Hindus and others have been eliminated from Islamic lands... Historically proven, demography of today proves this... One should not enforce their own intolerance upon Hindus in the name of Babri and Gujarat Riots... They must go back into 1000 years of History which created Babri.. Kashmir.. and Godhra... One must talk of CAUSE and not EFFECT alone... The Effect on Hindus are much deeper than anything else in this world... The well integrated four Varnas - popularly known as Aryas - were divided and remains divided because of Invasion and Western Politics still ruling this nation... The ever free women of India were put under 'Ghunghat' for ever to hide their face from the Islamic looters... Brahmins had to impose child marriage among Hindus because their girls were picked away at an early age in the name of 'Virgin' given by God to Islamic rapers... British took advantage of this and teached the whole population that these are the raw culture of Hinduism... Unfortunate, the same Best Scientists, Philosophers, Pschologists and all failed to defeat Swami Vivekananda who put Hinduism on top of everything on their land... Read him, read Hinduism from its scripture (and not from the mouth of Dr. Zakir Naik)... and you will know that WORLD LIVES BECAUSE HINDUISM IS ALIVE EVEN IN ISLAM AND CHRISTIANITY... A person respecting his parents is Hinduism, A person loyarl to his Religous Guru is Hinduism, A person dedicated to his job is Hinduism, A person marrying and leading a stable family is Hinduism... A person getting spiritual in line with God is Hinduism... You may change the books, induce impurity in the name of God in those books... but the truth will ever remain... The world exists because of Hinduism and the world will exist only as long as Hinduism is alive - directly or indirectly.... From: M Javed To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Cc: sarai list Sent: Tuesday, May 5, 2009 5:38:01 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims Dear Kshmendra Who is an Indian Muslim? We need to answer this before we can answer your "...should they be thinking about using the Islamic flag..." Javed On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 5:19 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > QUOTE: > > It also carried drawings of two white and black flags, the former being the main flag of Holy Prophet Muhammad (Peace be Upon Him) and the latter his military standard. Even now, black-turbaned TNSM members carry the small white and black flags as they walk ahead of Sufi Mohammad. ...... UNQUOTE > > This quote is from an article on Maulana Sufi Mohammad written by Rahimullah Yusufzai. > http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=175825 > > No green flag. No crescent and star on it. > > The green flag with the crescent and star on it which is used by Indian Muslims has often caused misunderstandings. > > One recent example has been Simi Garewal talking about Pakistani Flags being flown by Indian Muslims. She apologised later for having mistaken the Islamic Flag of the Indian Muslims for the Pakistani Flag. > > The close resemblance between the 2 flags confused even Anupam Chakravartty, who inspite of video coverage from Times Now showing it to be a Pakistani Flag, insisted that what was flown in Assam with " sickle (sic) and star on green background is an islamic symbol" > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2009-April/018755.html > > In an earlier mail I had commented: > > """""" If this is factual, then the question arises for the Indian Muslims that should they be thinking about using the Islamic Flag without the Crescent and Star so that it does not appear to be close to being the flag of Pakistan? """""" > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2008-December/017016.html > > Just thinking aloud > > Kshmendra > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From c.anupam at gmail.com Wed May 6 15:29:59 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 15:29:59 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Modi and paint brush In-Reply-To: <61164a90905060113p38dfd7f7vb81ccacc8e06e54a@mail.gmail.com> References: <61164a90905060113p38dfd7f7vb81ccacc8e06e54a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00905060259t9fd4998t3c6df5c7e0f5d83e@mail.gmail.com> Dear Rajen, It was you who started that mail thread with your "Modi, forgetting that this person has done better than many CMs of the nation in governance of the state". I think being in gujarat i can have a better perspective that what you have, which i have been telling you many times. it is easier for you write these kind of things, without being present in the field. you repeatedly commit these mistakes, i cant do much about it. see for yourself, you will know. regards anupam From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed May 6 15:43:40 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 03:13:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <377887.31084.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Javed   I do not know what you needed convincing about but you say you are 'simply not convinced'. I cannot do much about that.   As for others having 'already taken care of the points' you would have engaged me on, I will take that up with the 'others' if I think I need to respond and also depending on who the 'other' is.   You have quoted me incompletely and by doing so altered the import of what I said.   I had written "flag flown by Indian Muslims wherever the Muslim identity is sought to be displayed." You missed out on the last three words 'to be displayed'.   That should not be difficult to understand, nor (in my opinion) should be problematic. Just like Hindus do, or Sikhs do, or Christians do with their flags, Muslims also fly the (crescent+star on green) flag at places where they want to display the Muslim identity. It could be a Mosque, a Dargah, a Mohalla, a Building, in a procession etc. Is there anything contentious or problematic about saying that?   That is not the stereotyping of Indian Muslims because all other religions also do it wherever they want to 'display' their individual religious identity.   I do understand your 'fight' against attempts to "create a monolith of Indian Muslims". There have been some very interesting and thought provoking posts on that topic on this List.   I think what has caused such sharp responses from you and others is my use of the two words "Indian Muslims". Unwarranted reactions I think because my comments were on the Flag. What else could I say in talking about the Flag other than it being an Islamic Flag used by Indian Muslims? Doesnt matter, I am used to such half thought out responses.   Talking about 'historicity', certainly you could talk about that with reference to the flags (or any other symbols) used by 'other communities and identities too'.  And of course you can question why 'saffron' has to be appropriated by Hindu-extremists. Go right ahead.   As for asking me to stop talking about certain topics or asking certain kinds of questions, sorry I cannot accede to that. I will talk about whatever I want to talk about, because I do not promote or propagate either hate or divides.    As you have mentioned, these opinions and suggestions of mine might bring me brickbats. Such brickbats would only be a display of inability or resistance to thinking over things.    Kshmendra   --- On Tue, 5/5/09, M Javed wrote: From: M Javed Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Cc: "sarai list" Date: Tuesday, May 5, 2009, 10:00 PM Dear Kshmendra I think Anupam and Taha have already taken care of the points I would have engaged with you (and they communicate better than me). I am simply not convinced with your answer. I found your phrase "flag flown by Indian Muslims wherever the Muslim identity is sought" very very problematic. We fight against this stereotype everyday - you simply are trying to create a monolith of Indian Muslims. And, to heck with the historicity - I bloody well know that green colour and cresent/star have not much significance in Islam. And one could probably extend that historicity to other communities and identities too. Why should saffron be appropriated only by the Hindu-extremists? Has it got any historicity. And please stop using statements like "These questions have to be asked by Indian Muslims of themselves" - you said something similar when talking about Quran and Hadis recently -- advicing the Muslims to start reading Quran and hadis separately, and so on. You can have an opinion of yours, but to suggest that so and so should start following what I advocate, is something likely to bring brickbats for you. cheers J On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 7:58 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Javed > > I was talking about the flag flown by Indian Muslims wherever the Muslim > identity is sought to be displayed. > > Surely you are not unfamiliar with that flag. It is in green colour and and > has a white crescent and a white star on it. > > In the context of talking about 'that' flag, your question "Who is an Indian > Muslim" is a meaningless one. > > The question is whether such a flag as described by me is used by Indian > Muslims (wherever it may be used and whosoever amongst the Indian Muslims > may use it) and whether 'that' flag gets confused with being the Pakistani > flag (which it closely resembles). > > The answer to both those questions is YES. > > One other question is whether such a flag has any significant historicity > that would make it undivorceable from core Islamic Identity. My answer to > that question is NO. > > I really do not need an answer from you. These questions have to be asked by > Indian Muslims of themselves and find their own answers. That exactly was > how I had framed my comments. > > Kshmendra > > --- On Tue, 5/5/09, M Javed wrote: > > From: M Javed > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > Cc: "sarai list" > Date: Tuesday, May 5, 2009, 5:38 PM > > Dear Kshmendra > > Who is an Indian Muslim? > > We need to answer this before we can answer your "...should they be > thinking about using the Islamic flag..." > > Javed > > > > On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 5:19 PM, Kshmendra Kaul > wrote: >> >> QUOTE: >> >> It also carried drawings of two white and black flags, the former being > the main flag of Holy Prophet Muhammad (Peace be Upon Him) and the latter > his > military standard. Even now, black-turbaned TNSM members carry the small > white > and black flags as they walk ahead of Sufi Mohammad. ...... UNQUOTE >> >> This quote is from an article on Maulana Sufi Mohammad written by > Rahimullah Yusufzai. >> http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=175825 >> >> No green flag. No crescent and star on it. >> >> The green flag with the crescent and star on it which is used by Indian > Muslims has often caused misunderstandings. >> >> One recent example has been Simi Garewal talking about Pakistani Flags > being flown by Indian Muslims. She apologised later for having mistaken the > Islamic Flag of the Indian Muslims for the Pakistani Flag. >> >> The close resemblance between the 2 flags confused even > Anupam Chakravartty, who inspite of video coverage from Times Now showing it > to > be a Pakistani Flag, insisted that what was flown in Assam with " sickle > (sic) and star on green background  is an islamic symbol" >> http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2009-April/018755.html >> >> In an earlier mail I had commented: >> >> """""" If this is factual, then the question > arises for the Indian Muslims that should they be thinking about using the > Islamic Flag without the Crescent and Star so that it does not appear to be > close to being the flag of Pakistan? """""" >> http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2008-December/017016.html >> >> Just thinking aloud >> >> Kshmendra >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: > > From chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Wed May 6 15:41:57 2009 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com (chanchal malviya) Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 03:11:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Unsubscribe... In-Reply-To: <341380d00905060247h501dfa4clcc3c3c2b1c65280c@mail.gmail.com> References: <74892.42762.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <562330.29752.qm@web90404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <5af37bb0905060044u117f2486q9efc274d2ba066a5@mail.gmail.com> <458944.84971.qm@web90407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <341380d00905060247h501dfa4clcc3c3c2b1c65280c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <590252.76245.qm@web90404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Moderator plz unsubscribe... me.... From chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Wed May 6 15:56:35 2009 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com (chanchal malviya) Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 03:26:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims In-Reply-To: <341380d00905060247h501dfa4clcc3c3c2b1c65280c@mail.gmail.com> References: <74892.42762.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <562330.29752.qm@web90404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <5af37bb0905060044u117f2486q9efc274d2ba066a5@mail.gmail.com> <458944.84971.qm@web90407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <341380d00905060247h501dfa4clcc3c3c2b1c65280c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <470566.86121.qm@web90403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Media is getting anti-national... It blocks out news that goes against Islam... and This is happening since Independence... http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-4003319,prtpage-1.cms ________________________________ From: anupam chakravartty To: sarai list Sent: Wednesday, May 6, 2009 3:17:12 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims Dear chanchal, I think you forgot to mention that modern chemistry has its roots in Arabia, so does the understanding of modern geography especially for sailors from which thales borrowed was of semetic origin. since, you are close to hindutva vadis, kindly tell us why VHP leader ashok singhal is mostly in america and uk -- what is his business there if as you say that hindutva vadis are internalising their struggle here? it is easier to get votes by fanning out faith-based issues but in that process one ends up cheating their personal gods, if you know what i mean. it is shame that you are accusing one whole community because some criminals, some shrewd individuals on some innocent. if we go by how you are describing these acts, then gujarat riots, kandhamal was planned by the hindus and whole of hindu community is responsible for that. but we dont do so because a large number of hindus do not want to be a part of these acts -- they want to carry on with their daily lives, even if it is mundane. i dont see your ideas being different from that of al-qaeda. -anupam On 5/6/09, chanchal malviya wrote: > > What is wrong in Kamasutra... It is a Science of Sex... to be practiced > during Grihastha Aashram.... > Sex is not a closed deal for Hindus... It is a natural science... and who > will deny that the whole creation of the Universe lies on this very concept > of Sex.... > > Are Muslims born without sex... and is their own parental sexual positions > different from the science of kamasutra.... > hindus are not bigotry... muslims rape Hindu women by order of God and > criticize Kamasutra... > Tulsidas told - Bhikhari upwaas kare to use upwaas nahi kehate... > Muslims talking about Kamasutra is hopeless... Because they are by order of > God allowed to marry many and hold many... > > Do not talk of the maturity of Hinduism towards which Science is bound to > move.... From where has this concept of 4.3 billion years of earth's age > come... it is from Hinduism... if you do not believe Hindu book, read > Akbarnama where author has said about Hindu calculation and mentioned about > this.... he told it crazy but now science is saying the same thing... the > beginning of all scientific theories are now merging with Hinduism... which > will be criticized by Religions... because these Religions want to throw > away God..and do all crimes.. and force God to forgive them.. and make the > sufferers further suffer.... > > > > > ________________________________ > From: yasir ~يا سر > To: Sarai Reader-list > Sent: Wednesday, May 6, 2009 1:14:38 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims > > [satire] > > clap clap clap clap > > thanks. what a balanced view you have written. that was very enlightening > as > hinduism is/out to be. > > because i had thought hinduism was the hari krishnas, kamasutras, ajantas, > temple prostitution and naked fakirs. . in addition to the baniyas fleecing > people and tribals dancing around fires. and who wants to wait for houris > anyway. when you have the jantar mantar. > > i like saffron. we use it in cooking. and we have it when we return from > bombing the americans. as you predicted rightly, hindus are next as youve > gotten a taste. ie if you harrass the locals too much and we start getting > complaints, we are coming from across the northwest as is the custom for a > a > few thousand years. what makes u even think you can win or even hold out > for one second. > > namaste > stay safe > > > > > On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 9:01 AM, chanchal malviya < > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > > wrote: > > > Indian Muslims are those whose forefathers betrayed with their own base > > foundation Hinduism - either out of fear or lust. > > Indian Muslims are those who historically didn't play a major role in > > Indian Independence, and rather took lead in Khilafat with Gandhi (the > > apostole of peace) to massacre over 10,000 Hindus in the name of God... > > Indian Muslims are those who established a thick line in 1947 that they > > cannot live with Hindus who unfortunately happens to be their own > ancestral > > brothers... > > India Muslims now have loosed their credibility of being a part of > > Nationalist attitude by publicly denying to accept National Anthem, > National > > Song and denying Bharat as maata... when these things should have nothing > to > > take with Hindus... but now slogans like 'Bharat maata ki Jai', 'Jana > gana > > mana', 'vande maatram'... are all part of only Hindu culture... > > Indian Muslims are now a partners of Terrorism, and by and large declared > > Terrorism... most of their leaders shout publicly that every Muslim > should > > be a terrorist with some logical background that terrorism should be for > > non-believers often purified through management language... > > Indian Muslims or any Muslim in this world (barring exceptions - 1 to 2 % > > of the population), has to re-establish their credibility that they are > > humans and worshipers of humanity first before unknown, unseen God who > > according to them hates, prepares fire of hell, prepared heaven with > houris > > and virgins, asks people to murder... > > > > WHO WILL SOLVE THIS IGNORANCE OF HATRED IN THE NAME OF GOD - ONLY > HINDUS... > > That is the reason Muslims have existed from over thousand years in > India, > > and Hindus and others have been eliminated from Islamic lands... > > Historically proven, demography of today proves this... > > > > One should not enforce their own intolerance upon Hindus in the name of > > Babri and Gujarat Riots... They must go back into 1000 years of History > > which created Babri.. Kashmir.. and Godhra... One must talk of CAUSE and > > not EFFECT alone... The Effect on Hindus are much deeper than anything > else > > in this world... > > > > The well integrated four Varnas - popularly known as Aryas - were divided > > and remains divided because of Invasion and Western Politics still ruling > > this nation... > > The ever free women of India were put under 'Ghunghat' for ever to hide > > their face from the Islamic looters... Brahmins had to impose child > marriage > > among Hindus because their girls were picked away at an early age in the > > name of 'Virgin' given by God to Islamic rapers... British took advantage > of > > this and teached the whole population that these are the raw culture of > > Hinduism... > > > > Unfortunate, the same Best Scientists, Philosophers, Pschologists and all > > failed to defeat Swami Vivekananda who put Hinduism on top of everything > on > > their land... Read him, read Hinduism from its scripture (and not from > the > > mouth of Dr. Zakir Naik)... and you will know that WORLD LIVES BECAUSE > > HINDUISM IS ALIVE EVEN IN ISLAM AND CHRISTIANITY... > > > > A person respecting his parents is Hinduism, A person loyarl to his > > Religous Guru is Hinduism, A person dedicated to his job is Hinduism, A > > person marrying and leading a stable family is Hinduism... A person > getting > > spiritual in line with God is Hinduism... > > You may change the books, induce impurity in the name of God in those > > books... but the truth will ever remain... The world exists because of > > Hinduism and the world will exist only as long as Hinduism is alive - > > directly or indirectly.... > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: M Javed > > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > > Cc: sarai list > > Sent: Tuesday, May 5, 2009 5:38:01 PM > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims > > > > Dear Kshmendra > > > > Who is an Indian Muslim? > > > > We need to answer this before we can answer your "...should they be > > thinking about using the Islamic flag..." > > > > Javed > > > > > > > > On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 5:19 PM, Kshmendra Kaul > > wrote: > > > > > > QUOTE: > > > > > > It also carried drawings of two white and black flags, the former being > > the main flag of Holy Prophet Muhammad (Peace be Upon Him) and the latter > > his military standard. Even now, black-turbaned TNSM members carry the > small > > white and black flags as they walk ahead of Sufi Mohammad. ...... UNQUOTE > > > > > > This quote is from an article on Maulana Sufi Mohammad written by > > Rahimullah Yusufzai. > > > http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=175825 > > > > > > No green flag. No crescent and star on it. > > > > > > The green flag with the crescent and star on it which is used by Indian > > Muslims has often caused misunderstandings. > > > > > > One recent example has been Simi Garewal talking about Pakistani Flags > > being flown by Indian Muslims. She apologised later for having mistaken > the > > Islamic Flag of the Indian Muslims for the Pakistani Flag. > > > > > > The close resemblance between the 2 flags confused even Anupam > > Chakravartty, who inspite of video coverage from Times Now showing it to > be > > a Pakistani Flag, insisted that what was flown in Assam with " sickle > (sic) > > and star on green background is an islamic symbol" > > > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2009-April/018755.html > > > > > > In an earlier mail I had commented: > > > > > > """""" If this is factual, then the question arises for the Indian > > Muslims that should they be thinking about using the Islamic Flag without > > the Crescent and Star so that it does not appear to be close to being the > > flag of Pakistan? """""" > > > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2008-December/017016.html > > > > > > Just thinking aloud > > > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com Wed May 6 16:06:28 2009 From: rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com (Rajen Uppinangadi) Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 16:06:28 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] why all this bickering in a forum which is supposed to be of intellectuals, for all.? Message-ID: <61164a90905060336w5c04717kb05133d37333e92b@mail.gmail.com> Dear All, freedom of expression has no absolute freedom to hurt others, as societal freedom of expression is also important just as individual freedom.Such freedom becomes license to be not good in society, thus spoiling the prospects of good present and ruining the perfect future. Hindu way of life recognises all faiths and respects them, because it is oldest way of life, Sanathan Dharma, is ever evolving, embracing good out of all the faiths, rejecting the ills if any in any way of life. Please do remember again and again that we are no more in kingdoms ruled by kings of different faiths, now we are ruled by ourselves, by the rule of laws, as enshrined in the Constitution, which ensures respect for all faiths, appeasement to none, let us have that in mind and in our actions of correcting the past, let us not fill our mind with hate, revenge and vengeance and this will only give us violence and more of it.Freedom to post the thoughts should not become a vitriolic past time to use the intellect in more hate posts to vitiate the forum, let us be thinking of the generations next that have to live with prosperity, peace and harmony. Mistakes are committed by humans for their percieved hurts, actuals hurts and imagined hurts, like the Bush who went in search of imagined weapons of mass destructions in Iraq and Afghanistan, a leader who plunged his nation to deprived position with war crimes, waste of public funds and now the nations who indulged in this violent war are all paying for it with recession.Truth of the matter is Bush and such leaders who are "devout" are the villains in mankind. Hindu way of life always has the patience to bear out as much as possible and the last resort is the use of violent war when all other methods of corrections fail. War always brings with it destruction and this is born out in all the epics that we read for literary or intellectual values in these epics, be it Ramayana or Bhagawatha, or Maha Bharatha. With different rulers ruling the land mass that is now partly Bharath, the real kingdom of the Ramayana or Mahabharatha is much larger and Khandahar gave khandhari, or gandhari to Mahabharatha, mistakes have happened in the past with rulers of different faiths but is it the reason enough for us to ruin the present and spoil the future of the next generation.? History has also shown us that whoever ruled, the kingdom, the ruled changed faith to be closer to the power that is ruling, for the greed of being in power. Moguls has had kings like Akbar who founded the faith of Deen E elahi, where sufism was the faith, but we have also Babar and Aurangjebs who ever hesitated to use sword for the faith and conversion. British rule saw that the books of knowledge of hindus were debunked, denigrated, many hindus to be in good books were the first to retain hindu names and be the converts to proseltyse, but let bygones be bygones, now is there need to carry this baggage of hate and revenge in democratic rule of laws where rule of laws can set right all the wrongs if we do mind to set right legally instead of using the verbal or physical violence.? All that my prayer now, is Oh, Lord,, they know not what they are doing , forgive them. When all faiths talk of humane way of life why this craze for animal insticts.? Healthy debates without demeaning each other is very heartening, but dissent is to be answered with thoughts, not by attack on that individual.... Let the thoughts attack other thoughts and better thoughts will prevail for good of the society. Regards, Rajen. From yasir.media at gmail.com Wed May 6 16:09:06 2009 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?windows-1256?B?eWFzaXIgfu3HINPR?=) Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 15:39:06 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims In-Reply-To: <470566.86121.qm@web90403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <74892.42762.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <562330.29752.qm@web90404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <5af37bb0905060044u117f2486q9efc274d2ba066a5@mail.gmail.com> <458944.84971.qm@web90407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <341380d00905060247h501dfa4clcc3c3c2b1c65280c@mail.gmail.com> <470566.86121.qm@web90403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5af37bb0905060339k366c9b59i3173c1c451e6c8ea@mail.gmail.com> oh no this is terrible. i should read the news more often. people should be encoraged to marru for live just like in the movies i mean good movies :) On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 3:26 PM, chanchal malviya wrote: > Media is getting anti-national... It blocks out news that goes against > Islam... and > This is happening since Independence... > > http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-4003319,prtpage-1.cms > > > > > ________________________________ > From: anupam chakravartty > To: sarai list > Sent: Wednesday, May 6, 2009 3:17:12 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims > > Dear chanchal, > > I think you forgot to mention that modern chemistry has its roots in > Arabia, > so does the understanding of modern geography especially for sailors from > which thales borrowed was of semetic origin. > > since, you are close to hindutva vadis, kindly tell us why VHP leader ashok > singhal is mostly in america and uk -- what is his business there if as you > say that hindutva vadis are internalising their struggle here? > > it is easier to get votes by fanning out faith-based issues but in that > process one ends up cheating their personal gods, if you know what i mean. > it is shame that you are accusing one whole community because some > criminals, some shrewd individuals on some innocent. if we go by how you > are > describing these acts, then gujarat riots, kandhamal was planned by the > hindus and whole of hindu community is responsible for that. but we dont do > so because a large number of hindus do not want to be a part of these acts > -- they want to carry on with their daily lives, even if it is mundane. i > dont see your ideas being different from that of al-qaeda. > > -anupam > > > > > On 5/6/09, chanchal malviya wrote: > > > > What is wrong in Kamasutra... It is a Science of Sex... to be practiced > > during Grihastha Aashram.... > > Sex is not a closed deal for Hindus... It is a natural science... and who > > will deny that the whole creation of the Universe lies on this very > concept > > of Sex.... > > > > Are Muslims born without sex... and is their own parental sexual > positions > > different from the science of kamasutra.... > > hindus are not bigotry... muslims rape Hindu women by order of God and > > criticize Kamasutra... > > Tulsidas told - Bhikhari upwaas kare to use upwaas nahi kehate... > > Muslims talking about Kamasutra is hopeless... Because they are by order > of > > God allowed to marry many and hold many... > > > > Do not talk of the maturity of Hinduism towards which Science is bound to > > move.... From where has this concept of 4.3 billion years of earth's age > > come... it is from Hinduism... if you do not believe Hindu book, read > > Akbarnama where author has said about Hindu calculation and mentioned > about > > this.... he told it crazy but now science is saying the same thing... > the > > beginning of all scientific theories are now merging with Hinduism... > which > > will be criticized by Religions... because these Religions want to throw > > away God..and do all crimes.. and force God to forgive them.. and make > the > > sufferers further suffer.... > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: yasir ~يا سر > > To: Sarai Reader-list > > Sent: Wednesday, May 6, 2009 1:14:38 PM > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims > > > > [satire] > > > > clap clap clap clap > > > > thanks. what a balanced view you have written. that was very enlightening > > as > > hinduism is/out to be. > > > > because i had thought hinduism was the hari krishnas, kamasutras, > ajantas, > > temple prostitution and naked fakirs. . in addition to the baniyas > fleecing > > people and tribals dancing around fires. and who wants to wait for houris > > anyway. when you have the jantar mantar. > > > > i like saffron. we use it in cooking. and we have it when we return from > > bombing the americans. as you predicted rightly, hindus are next as youve > > gotten a taste. ie if you harrass the locals too much and we start > getting > > complaints, we are coming from across the northwest as is the custom for > a > > a > > few thousand years. what makes u even think you can win or even hold out > > for one second. > > > > namaste > > stay safe > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 9:01 AM, chanchal malviya < > > chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > > > wrote: > > > > > Indian Muslims are those whose forefathers betrayed with their own base > > > foundation Hinduism - either out of fear or lust. > > > Indian Muslims are those who historically didn't play a major role in > > > Indian Independence, and rather took lead in Khilafat with Gandhi (the > > > apostole of peace) to massacre over 10,000 Hindus in the name of God... > > > Indian Muslims are those who established a thick line in 1947 that they > > > cannot live with Hindus who unfortunately happens to be their own > > ancestral > > > brothers... > > > India Muslims now have loosed their credibility of being a part of > > > Nationalist attitude by publicly denying to accept National Anthem, > > National > > > Song and denying Bharat as maata... when these things should have > nothing > > to > > > take with Hindus... but now slogans like 'Bharat maata ki Jai', 'Jana > > gana > > > mana', 'vande maatram'... are all part of only Hindu culture... > > > Indian Muslims are now a partners of Terrorism, and by and large > declared > > > Terrorism... most of their leaders shout publicly that every Muslim > > should > > > be a terrorist with some logical background that terrorism should be > for > > > non-believers often purified through management language... > > > Indian Muslims or any Muslim in this world (barring exceptions - 1 to 2 > % > > > of the population), has to re-establish their credibility that they are > > > humans and worshipers of humanity first before unknown, unseen God who > > > according to them hates, prepares fire of hell, prepared heaven with > > houris > > > and virgins, asks people to murder... > > > > > > WHO WILL SOLVE THIS IGNORANCE OF HATRED IN THE NAME OF GOD - ONLY > > HINDUS... > > > That is the reason Muslims have existed from over thousand years in > > India, > > > and Hindus and others have been eliminated from Islamic lands... > > > Historically proven, demography of today proves this... > > > > > > One should not enforce their own intolerance upon Hindus in the name of > > > Babri and Gujarat Riots... They must go back into 1000 years of History > > > which created Babri.. Kashmir.. and Godhra... One must talk of CAUSE > and > > > not EFFECT alone... The Effect on Hindus are much deeper than anything > > else > > > in this world... > > > > > > The well integrated four Varnas - popularly known as Aryas - were > divided > > > and remains divided because of Invasion and Western Politics still > ruling > > > this nation... > > > The ever free women of India were put under 'Ghunghat' for ever to hide > > > their face from the Islamic looters... Brahmins had to impose child > > marriage > > > among Hindus because their girls were picked away at an early age in > the > > > name of 'Virgin' given by God to Islamic rapers... British took > advantage > > of > > > this and teached the whole population that these are the raw culture of > > > Hinduism... > > > > > > Unfortunate, the same Best Scientists, Philosophers, Pschologists and > all > > > failed to defeat Swami Vivekananda who put Hinduism on top of > everything > > on > > > their land... Read him, read Hinduism from its scripture (and not from > > the > > > mouth of Dr. Zakir Naik)... and you will know that WORLD LIVES BECAUSE > > > HINDUISM IS ALIVE EVEN IN ISLAM AND CHRISTIANITY... > > > > > > A person respecting his parents is Hinduism, A person loyarl to his > > > Religous Guru is Hinduism, A person dedicated to his job is Hinduism, A > > > person marrying and leading a stable family is Hinduism... A person > > getting > > > spiritual in line with God is Hinduism... > > > You may change the books, induce impurity in the name of God in those > > > books... but the truth will ever remain... The world exists because of > > > Hinduism and the world will exist only as long as Hinduism is alive - > > > directly or indirectly.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: M Javed > > > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > > > Cc: sarai list > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 5, 2009 5:38:01 PM > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims > > > > > > Dear Kshmendra > > > > > > Who is an Indian Muslim? > > > > > > We need to answer this before we can answer your "...should they be > > > thinking about using the Islamic flag..." > > > > > > Javed > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 5:19 PM, Kshmendra Kaul < > kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > QUOTE: > > > > > > > > It also carried drawings of two white and black flags, the former > being > > > the main flag of Holy Prophet Muhammad (Peace be Upon Him) and the > latter > > > his military standard. Even now, black-turbaned TNSM members carry the > > small > > > white and black flags as they walk ahead of Sufi Mohammad. ...... > UNQUOTE > > > > > > > > This quote is from an article on Maulana Sufi Mohammad written by > > > Rahimullah Yusufzai. > > > > http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=175825 > > > > > > > > No green flag. No crescent and star on it. > > > > > > > > The green flag with the crescent and star on it which is used by > Indian > > > Muslims has often caused misunderstandings. > > > > > > > > One recent example has been Simi Garewal talking about Pakistani > Flags > > > being flown by Indian Muslims. She apologised later for having mistaken > > the > > > Islamic Flag of the Indian Muslims for the Pakistani Flag. > > > > > > > > The close resemblance between the 2 flags confused even Anupam > > > Chakravartty, who inspite of video coverage from Times Now showing it > to > > be > > > a Pakistani Flag, insisted that what was flown in Assam with " sickle > > (sic) > > > and star on green background is an islamic symbol" > > > > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2009-April/018755.html > > > > > > > > In an earlier mail I had commented: > > > > > > > > """""" If this is factual, then the question arises for the Indian > > > Muslims that should they be thinking about using the Islamic Flag > without > > > the Crescent and Star so that it does not appear to be close to being > the > > > flag of Pakistan? """""" > > > > > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2008-December/017016.html > > > > > > > > Just thinking aloud > > > > > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > From rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com Wed May 6 16:10:57 2009 From: rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com (Rajen Uppinangadi) Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 16:10:57 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?q?=28no_subject=29?= Message-ID: <61164a90905060340t243bea58i3be4bd1075c296c2@mail.gmail.com> Anupam, I have travelled all around India and abroad, but change is constant, only constant. I have seen the good works of left parties in power after the brutalities of SS Ray and congress governance in west bengal. But I have also seen the recent avtar of the left in Singur and nandigram. All are good, but occassionally they do tend to be evil.? By the way he is Modi, not mine or yours. Let us have the good of seeing good in others also.! Regards. Rajen. From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed May 6 16:16:19 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 03:46:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims In-Reply-To: <47e122a70905051137i2572f0ao74831a313a9b2b64@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <556034.45457.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Inder   Request you to answer a simple question before I address the other points in your mail. Please do honour this request.   Where have I (as put by you)     """""instantly clubbed development of Gujarat with Modi.""""""   Will be grateful for your response evidencing that statement attributed to me.   Not even in my dreams would I find any excuse (including any economic development) that would justify or make bearable the person of Modi for me.   Kshmendra   --- On Wed, 5/6/09, Inder Salim wrote: From: Inder Salim Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims To: "reader-list" Date: Wednesday, May 6, 2009, 12:07 AM Dear Kshmendra, I am not using this an opportunity to point out this fact, but it struck me earlier as well..... when you instantly clubbed development of Gujarat with Modi. I agree that ‘evil’ cant be visualized just in the face of one bearded man,........... but we must not forget how Germany progressed under HItler as well. So what is Development? Imagine if the boys who killed Aman Kachroo were toppers, would you forgive them? I guess no. We have to ask many questions to ourselves, before we ask others. here muslims, poor muslims .who never voted for Partition, never knew even about what it was all aboutt, and never know even why they are called pakistanis here in India, and never even know why they are sometimes unwittingly following a green colour with crecent and star, never know even that it has nothing to do with Islam....... The issue of Flag and Indian Muslims is as old one. We all know, how Kashmiris wittingly vent their anger against Indian occupation by identifying themselves with this flag. It has all to do with partition related pending issues.... whether u like it not, Pakistan is a reality, even during the current crises. And pakistan is not only green, crescent and star , but something more like India is not tricolour only It is here, your intellect falls on banana peels, because you have zero tolerance against something called Nation State. you feel, nothing should rip this sacred word, not even at the level of rhetoric...not even if Plague like thing fills the air we breath. i am Indian , but I dont know who qualifies as a true Indian in the first place.......where are those translations which we can store in a locker room, and exhibit as tags on our foreheads to describe our loyaty to the Nation as and when a so called Hindu Indian demands from us... why so Meanwhile, like Narender Modi i too think you have a brilliant mind, a talent to grasp the content of mails quickly and reflect back with speed, but alas, ....... with love and regards inder salim I quote Kshmendra from you other brilliant response to Jebeesh forward of Tridip Suhrud A hundred years from today will anyone other than Gandhi (MK) belong to history? I see no one who will be anything more than italicised footnotes in very small print. again, Mr. Kshmendra, u are wrong, which does not mean that i am right is On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 5:19 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > QUOTE: > > It also carried drawings of two white and black flags, the former being the main flag of Holy Prophet Muhammad (Peace be Upon Him) and the latter his military standard. Even now, black-turbaned TNSM members carry the small white and black flags as they walk ahead of Sufi Mohammad. ...... UNQUOTE > > This quote is from an article on Maulana Sufi Mohammad written by Rahimullah Yusufzai. > http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=175825 > > No green flag. No crescent and star on it. > > The green flag with the crescent and star on it which is used by Indian Muslims has often caused misunderstandings. > > One recent example has been Simi Garewal talking about Pakistani Flags being flown by Indian Muslims. She apologised later for having mistaken the Islamic Flag of the Indian Muslims for the Pakistani Flag. > > The close resemblance between the 2 flags confused even Anupam Chakravartty, who inspite of video coverage from Times Now showing it to be a Pakistani Flag, insisted that what was flown in Assam with " sickle (sic) and star on green background  is an islamic symbol" > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2009-April/018755.html > > In an earlier mail I had commented: > > """""" If this is factual, then the question arises for the Indian Muslims that should they be thinking about using the Islamic Flag without the Crescent and Star so that it does not appear to be close to being the flag of Pakistan? """""" > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2008-December/017016.html > > Just thinking aloud > > Kshmendra > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com Wed May 6 16:22:11 2009 From: rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com (Rajen Uppinangadi) Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 16:22:11 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] would you do this favour for the Delhi state also.? Message-ID: <61164a90905060352s19a756b2q5c51de43e18e1f93@mail.gmail.com> Rakesh, would you do the similar works of CAG report of Delhi state also, as Sheila dixit is touted as best CM, without any faults. Regards, Rajen. From vedavati_jogi at yahoo.com Wed May 6 16:35:45 2009 From: vedavati_jogi at yahoo.com (Vedavati Jogi) Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 16:35:45 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims Message-ID: <745237.62712.qm@web94703.mail.in2.yahoo.com> what you have written is partially correct. muslims need not have to attack 'so called' hindus because that job is done by 'sickulars' on readers-list.   vedavati --- On Wed, 6/5/09, Jeebesh wrote: From: Jeebesh Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims To: "Sarai Reader-list" Date: Wednesday, 6 May, 2009, 12:29 AM dear All, I do not understand how constantly the list members keep attacking the  same entity called muslims and indian muslims. Well all attackers call  themselves hindus. The viscousness of the attacks baffles me. If they  had power and weapons they can do serious damage. On the other hand, i have not seen any person with so called "muslim  name" attack a Hindu or Hinduism, on this list.  So why does so called  Hindus keep attacking muslims in this list. What kind of blood lust is  this? Now days Hinduism is a fairly celebrated religion and thousands of  publications and places of worship is a sure sign of that. Yet a weird  sense of injured self seem to have justified all kind of rabble rousing. Being cautious of authoritarian organization is one thing, but to keep  on attacking a group of people is appalling. warmly jeebesh _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Own a website.Get an unlimited package.Pay next to nothing.*Go to http://in.business.yahoo.com/ From sonia.jabbar at gmail.com Wed May 6 17:03:40 2009 From: sonia.jabbar at gmail.com (S. Jabbar) Date: Wed, 06 May 2009 17:03:40 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims In-Reply-To: <458944.84971.qm@web90407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: SARAI MODERATOR either moderate or pl unsubscribe me from this disgusting list > From: chanchal malviya > Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 01:55:29 -0700 (PDT) > To: yasir ~يا سر , Sarai Reader-list > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims > > What is wrong in Kamasutra... It is a Science of Sex... to be practiced during > Grihastha Aashram.... Sex is not a closed deal for Hindus... It is a natural > science... and who will deny that the whole creation of the Universe lies on > this very concept of Sex.... Are Muslims born without sex... and is their > own parental sexual positions different from the science of kamasutra.... > hindus are not bigotry... muslims rape Hindu women by order of God and > criticize Kamasutra... Tulsidas told - Bhikhari upwaas kare to use upwaas > nahi kehate... Muslims talking about Kamasutra is hopeless... Because they are > by order of God allowed to marry many and hold many... Do not talk of the > maturity of Hinduism towards which Science is bound to move.... From where has > this concept of 4.3 billion years of earth's age come... it is from > Hinduism... if you do not believe Hindu book, read Akbarnama where author has > said about Hindu calculation and mentioned about this.... he told it crazy but > now science is saying the same thing... the beginning of all scientific > theories are now merging with Hinduism... which will be criticized by > Religions... because these Religions want to throw away God..and do all > crimes.. and force God to forgive them.. and make the sufferers further > suffer.... ________________________________ From: yasir ~يا سر > To: Sarai Reader-list Sent: > Wednesday, May 6, 2009 1:14:38 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag > of Indian Muslims [satire] clap clap clap clap thanks. what a balanced view > you have written. that was very enlightening as hinduism is/out to > be. because i had thought hinduism was the hari krishnas, kamasutras, > ajantas, temple prostitution and naked fakirs. . in addition to the baniyas > fleecing people and tribals dancing around fires. and who wants to wait for > houris anyway. when you have the jantar mantar. i like saffron. we use it in > cooking. and we have it when we return from bombing the americans. as you > predicted rightly, hindus are next as youve gotten a taste. ie if you harrass > the locals too much and we start getting complaints, we are coming from across > the northwest as is the custom for a a few thousand years. what makes u even > think you can win or even hold out for one second. namaste stay safe On > Wed, May 6, 2009 at 9:01 AM, chanchal malviya > wrote: > Indian Muslims are those whose forefathers betrayed with their own > base > foundation Hinduism - either out of fear or lust. > Indian Muslims are > those who historically didn't play a major role in > Indian Independence, and > rather took lead in Khilafat with Gandhi (the > apostole of peace) to massacre > over 10,000 Hindus in the name of God... > Indian Muslims are those who > established a thick line in 1947 that they > cannot live with Hindus who > unfortunately happens to be their own ancestral > brothers... > India Muslims > now have loosed their credibility of being a part of > Nationalist attitude by > publicly denying to accept National Anthem, National > Song and denying Bharat > as maata... when these things should have nothing to > take with Hindus... but > now slogans like 'Bharat maata ki Jai', 'Jana gana > mana', 'vande maatram'... > are all part of only Hindu culture... > Indian Muslims are now a partners of > Terrorism, and by and large declared > Terrorism... most of their leaders > shout publicly that every Muslim should > be a terrorist with some logical > background that terrorism should be for > non-believers often purified through > management language... > Indian Muslims or any Muslim in this world (barring > exceptions - 1 to 2 % > of the population), has to re-establish their > credibility that they are > humans and worshipers of humanity first before > unknown, unseen God who > according to them hates, prepares fire of hell, > prepared heaven with houris > and virgins, asks people to murder... > > WHO > WILL SOLVE THIS IGNORANCE OF HATRED IN THE NAME OF GOD - ONLY HINDUS... > That > is the reason Muslims have existed from over thousand years in India, > and > Hindus and others have been eliminated from Islamic lands... > Historically > proven, demography of today proves this... > > One should not enforce their > own intolerance upon Hindus in the name of > Babri and Gujarat Riots... They > must go back into 1000 years of History > which created Babri.. Kashmir.. and > Godhra... One must talk of CAUSE and > not EFFECT alone... The Effect on > Hindus are much deeper than anything else > in this world... > > The well > integrated four Varnas - popularly known as Aryas - were divided > and remains > divided because of Invasion and Western Politics still ruling > this > nation... > The ever free women of India were put under 'Ghunghat' for ever to > hide > their face from the Islamic looters... Brahmins had to impose child > marriage > among Hindus because their girls were picked away at an early age > in the > name of 'Virgin' given by God to Islamic rapers... British took > advantage of > this and teached the whole population that these are the raw > culture of > Hinduism... > > Unfortunate, the same Best Scientists, > Philosophers, Pschologists and all > failed to defeat Swami Vivekananda who > put Hinduism on top of everything on > their land... Read him, read Hinduism > from its scripture (and not from the > mouth of Dr. Zakir Naik)... and you > will know that WORLD LIVES BECAUSE > HINDUISM IS ALIVE EVEN IN ISLAM AND > CHRISTIANITY... > > A person respecting his parents is Hinduism, A person > loyarl to his > Religous Guru is Hinduism, A person dedicated to his job is > Hinduism, A > person marrying and leading a stable family is Hinduism... A > person getting > spiritual in line with God is Hinduism... > You may change > the books, induce impurity in the name of God in those > books... but the > truth will ever remain... The world exists because of > Hinduism and the world > will exist only as long as Hinduism is alive - > directly or > indirectly.... > > > > > ________________________________ > From: M Javed > > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > Cc: sarai list > > Sent: Tuesday, May 5, 2009 5:38:01 PM > Subject: Re: > [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims > > Dear Kshmendra > > Who is > an Indian Muslim? > > We need to answer this before we can answer your > "...should they be > thinking about using the Islamic flag..." > > > Javed > > > > On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 5:19 PM, Kshmendra Kaul > > wrote: > > > > QUOTE: > > > > It also carried > drawings of two white and black flags, the former being > the main flag of > Holy Prophet Muhammad (Peace be Upon Him) and the latter > his military > standard. Even now, black-turbaned TNSM members carry the small > white and > black flags as they walk ahead of Sufi Mohammad. ...... UNQUOTE > > > > This > quote is from an article on Maulana Sufi Mohammad written by > Rahimullah > Yusufzai. > > http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=175825 > > > > No > green flag. No crescent and star on it. > > > > The green flag with the > crescent and star on it which is used by Indian > Muslims has often caused > misunderstandings. > > > > One recent example has been Simi Garewal talking > about Pakistani Flags > being flown by Indian Muslims. She apologised later > for having mistaken the > Islamic Flag of the Indian Muslims for the Pakistani > Flag. > > > > The close resemblance between the 2 flags confused even Anupam > > Chakravartty, who inspite of video coverage from Times Now showing it to be > > a Pakistani Flag, insisted that what was flown in Assam with " sickle (sic) > > and star on green background is an islamic symbol" > > > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2009-April/018755.html > > > > In > an earlier mail I had commented: > > > > """""" If this is factual, then the > question arises for the Indian > Muslims that should they be thinking about > using the Islamic Flag without > the Crescent and Star so that it does not > appear to be close to being the > flag of Pakistan? """""" > > > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2008-December/017016.html > > > > > Just thinking aloud > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion > list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject > header. > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion > list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send > an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject > header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion > list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send > an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject > header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > ____________________________ > _____________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To > unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List > archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion > list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an > email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From indersalim at gmail.com Wed May 6 17:05:33 2009 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 17:05:33 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims In-Reply-To: <556034.45457.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <47e122a70905051137i2572f0ao74831a313a9b2b64@mail.gmail.com> <556034.45457.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70905060435o731921beo15e52e2185c2617f@mail.gmail.com> Kshmenda to Jeebesh : That is the reason why I find too starkly prejudicial TS's statement about Modi """" Here is a man incapable of care and nurturance reincarnating himself in, and as, an act of violence."""" No one is incapable of 'care and nurturance'. No one is evil incarnate. Such monsterisation is as ill-advised as deification. It serves as an easy answer but is far from any completeness of understanding of a person. Such a statement is also disrespectful and dismissive about Gujarat and it's people who TS identifies so closely with as is evident in the essay "In Defeat, Let Us Reclaim Our Selves" (Essay 2) A question I have (asked on this List too) "What does sending Modi back into office say about the people of Gujarat? Why did they do it?". I believe the answer to that question of importance. No one cares to address that. I do not have the intelligence/knowledge to do it. Damning Modi is easily done but that does not answer the question. On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 4:16 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Inder > > Request you to answer a simple question before I address the other points in > your mail. Please do honour this request. > > Where have I (as put by you) > >  """""instantly clubbed development of Gujarat with Modi."""""" > > Will be grateful for your response evidencing that statement attributed to > me. > > Not even in my dreams would I find any excuse (including any economic > development) that would justify or make bearable the person of Modi for me. > > Kshmendra > > > > --- On Wed, 5/6/09, Inder Salim wrote: > > From: Inder Salim > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims > To: "reader-list" > Date: Wednesday, May 6, 2009, 12:07 AM > > Dear Kshmendra, > I am not using this an opportunity to point out this fact, but it > struck me earlier as well..... when you instantly clubbed development > of Gujarat with Modi. > > I agree that ‘evil’ cant be visualized just in the face of one > bearded man,........... but we must not forget how Germany progressed > under HItler as well. So what is Development? Imagine if the boys who > killed Aman Kachroo were toppers, would you forgive them? > > I guess no. We have to ask many questions to ourselves, before we > ask others. here muslims, poor muslims .who never voted for Partition, > never knew even about what it was all aboutt, and never know even why > they are called pakistanis here in India, and never even know why they > are sometimes unwittingly following a green colour with crecent and > star, never know even that it has nothing to do with Islam....... > > The issue of Flag and Indian Muslims is as old one. We all know, how > Kashmiris wittingly vent their anger against Indian occupation by > identifying themselves with this flag. It has all to do with > partition related pending issues.... whether u like it not, Pakistan > is a reality, even during the current crises. And pakistan is not only > green, crescent and star , but something more like India is not > tricolour only > > It is here, your intellect falls on banana peels, because you have > zero tolerance against something called Nation State. > > you feel, nothing should rip this sacred word, not even at the level > of rhetoric...not even if Plague like thing fills the air we breath. > > i am Indian , but I dont know who qualifies as a true Indian in the > first place.......where are those translations which we can store in a > locker room, and exhibit as tags on our foreheads to describe our > loyaty to the Nation as and when a so called Hindu Indian demands from > us... why so > > Meanwhile, like Narender Modi i too think you have a brilliant mind, a > talent to grasp the content of mails quickly and reflect back with > speed, but alas, ....... > > > with love and regards > inder salim > > I quote Kshmendra from you other brilliant response to Jebeesh forward > of Tridip Suhrud > > A hundred years from today will anyone other than Gandhi (MK) belong > to history? I see no one who will be anything more than italicised > footnotes in very small print. > > again, Mr. Kshmendra, u are wrong, which does not mean that i am right > > is > > > > On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 5:19 PM, Kshmendra Kaul > wrote: >> >> QUOTE: >> >> It also carried drawings of two white and black flags, the former being > the main flag of Holy Prophet Muhammad (Peace be Upon Him) and the latter > his > military standard. Even now, black-turbaned TNSM members carry the small > white > and black flags as they walk ahead of Sufi Mohammad. ...... UNQUOTE >> >> This quote is from an article on Maulana Sufi Mohammad written by > Rahimullah Yusufzai. >> http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=175825 >> >> No green flag. No crescent and star on it. >> >> The green flag with the crescent and star on it which is used by Indian > Muslims has often caused misunderstandings. >> >> One recent example has been Simi Garewal talking about Pakistani Flags > being flown by Indian Muslims. She apologised later for having mistaken the > Islamic Flag of the Indian Muslims for the Pakistani Flag. >> >> The close resemblance between the 2 flags confused even > Anupam Chakravartty, who inspite of video coverage from Times Now showing it > to > be a Pakistani Flag, insisted that what was flown in Assam with " sickle > (sic) and star on green background  is an islamic symbol" >> http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2009-April/018755.html >> >> In an earlier mail I had commented: >> >> """""" If this is factual, then the question > arises for the Indian Muslims that should they be thinking about using the > Islamic Flag without the Crescent and Star so that it does not appear to be > close to being the flag of Pakistan? """""" >> http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2008-December/017016.html >> >> Just thinking aloud >> >> Kshmendra >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed May 6 18:30:23 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 06:00:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims In-Reply-To: <341380d00905050818h10fa58e9o71fae252a91a8a3f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <801817.40396.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Anupam   Read with interest your (in context) comments on Pakistani Flag / Assam / Media / Relief Camps / (so described by Media pundits) Bangladeshi influx / Bodo-Muslim strife (getting highlighted). Thanks.   Yes, for the user or displayer, a flag or even a symbol might carry a particular significance. And yes, for an observer it might suggest a different signifier based on  some inference. This gap could be out of malicious intent of the observer, or a lack of understanding by the observer, or vision clouded by 'happenings'.   There is however the adage that it is not what you say but what gets conveyed which is registered. I say that to myself too even as I remonstrate with someone that my words, attitudes, or intent have been misunderstood (different from deliberate misrepresentation). I have to be conscious of not only what I mean to convey but also what actually gets conveyed. No point in my parroting "That is not what I meant at all. That is not it at all"   It is not only with the flag that I was talking about that there can be a problem in conveyance of intent, but the Hindu Trishul (Trident) is another such example. At different points of time in an environment the very same 'symbol' might change the characteristics of the 'intended signifier'  and 'inferred signifier'.   Moving on ....   I apologise to Javed if I came across as condescending to him. He did not mention it, you have remarked so.   Frankly I was a bit irritated with his query ("Who is an India Muslim") because I was not talking about 'Indian Muslims' as a monolithic entity but """" I was talking about the flag flown by Indian Muslims wherever the Muslim identity is sought to be displayed."""""    You ask of me "Why should Muslims be bothered about whether they are Indian or not? Why should you consciously pose such question?"   I posed no such questions so I do not know what you are referring to. I do not think the Muslims of India would take any serious note of your asking why they should be bothered whether they are Indian or not; Whatever be the body of information or whatever be your intent in posing such a question.    You ask of me "Why should Indian Muslim always have ask questions, answer themselves?"   The answer to that is simple. Because everyone should do it. The Hindus should; The Christians should. You and I as individuals should. My answer can be only as generalised as your question since you took my words out of the context in which they were mentioned to Javed.   You ask of me "Who gave you those rights to frame your comments?"   That is a rather silly query. Whether it is me or you or anyone else, no one has to give us the right to comment or question. Can you imagine the situation if everyone asked of  everyone in this List "Who gave you those rights to comment or question". It could start with my asking you "Who gave you the right to comment or or question me about what I said". Interestingly, that would be the end of all Commentary and Opinion on News and most other non-fictional writing.    Moving on ....   My giving an answer to the question "whether such a flag has any significant historicity that would make it undivorceable from core Islamic Identity." is my answer. It is not and cannot be an imposition on anyone else. It does not prevent Muslims or anyoine else from answering that question for themselves. Javed gave an answer to that in his mail. It appears that he agrees with my answer.   You ask of me " Since when have you become a authority on identifying what Islamic identity is and what is not."   A misguided question from you. I made no claim to being an 'authority'. But yes I have studied (and continue to study) Islam and Islamic issues a fair bit and try to express an informed opinion. Anyone is free to correct me.   Now for your final question asking me "Do you like your community being discussed or questioned all the time?"   I do not know what you understand by my "community" but the answer is an unequivocal YES.   Kshmendra       --- On Tue, 5/5/09, anupam chakravartty wrote: From: anupam chakravartty Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims To: "sarai list" Date: Tuesday, May 5, 2009, 8:48 PM Dear Kshmendra, There is fundamental problem in the way you see a flag or even a symbol as a signifier of something else. That something else is not pre-defined. It is more like an inference. I might have been a little patronising while trying to define the local cameraman’s perspective. But actually, being a media person it is very easy for me to say: *kya chalega aur kya nahi chalega*. A Pakistani flag in the distant Assam facing a demographical problem of Bangladeshi influx as called by various media pundits sounds very interesting. The news reporter in me would not be bothered if a neighbouring ethnic tribe’s relief camp has a flag (signifying its sub-national tendencies) because it is commonplace to find such flags. At one point of time, these flags were banned. My problem is even if it was Pakistani flag, it was a relief camp (even the news channel reporting that incident admits that it was relief camp). Naturally, there were no armed men inside it with guns but with people who bore three or four nights violence just like their Bodo counterparts who were also killed in it. The way this reporter/cameraman could have brought this whole debate in this discourse is by showing and asking consent from people that yes that’s a Pakistani flag. But, look at the irony of this situation; the issue about Bodo-Muslim strife was brought about in the public discourse. And frankly, at one level you have accused of being patronising on the other while replying to Javed, I felt you were extremely condescending. Why should Muslims be bothered about whether they are Indian or not? Why should you consciously pose such question? Why should Indian Muslim always have ask questions, answer themselves? Who gave you those rights to frame your comments? And if you have these rights, then how can you make this statement: “whether such a flag has any significant historicity that would make it undivorceable from core Islamic Identity. My answer to that question is NO” why are you answering this question? Since when have you become a authority on identifying what Islamic identity is and what is not. It is shameful, that when one Sadhvi Pragya gets arrested, no one questions the Hindus as a whole in this country but when there is a Qayamuddin, there are people who start questioning the whole community with all sorts of things. Do you like your community being discussed or questioned all the time? Please answer this. -anupam On 5/5/09, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > Dear Javed > > I was talking about the flag flown by Indian Muslims wherever the Muslim > identity is sought to be displayed. > > Surely you are not unfamiliar with that flag. It is in green colour and and > has a white crescent and a white star on it. > > In the context of talking about 'that' flag, your question "Who is an > Indian Muslim" is a meaningless one. > > The question is whether such a flag as described by me is used by Indian > Muslims (wherever it may be used and whosoever amongst the Indian Muslims > may use it) and whether 'that' flag gets confused with being the Pakistani > flag (which it closely resembles). > > The answer to both those questions is YES. > > One other question is whether such a flag has any significant historicity > that would make it undivorceable from core Islamic Identity. My answer to > that question is NO. > > I really do not need an answer from you. These questions have to be asked > by Indian Muslims of themselves and find their own answers. That exactly was > how I had framed my comments. > > Kshmendra > > --- On Tue, 5/5/09, M Javed wrote: > > From: M Javed > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > Cc: "sarai list" > Date: Tuesday, May 5, 2009, 5:38 PM > > Dear Kshmendra > > Who is an Indian Muslim? > > We need to answer this before we can answer your "...should they be > thinking about using the Islamic flag..." > > Javed > > > > On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 5:19 PM, Kshmendra Kaul > wrote: > > > > QUOTE: > > > > It also carried drawings of two white and black flags, the former being > the main flag of Holy Prophet Muhammad (Peace be Upon Him) and the latter > his > military standard. Even now, black-turbaned TNSM members carry the small > white > and black flags as they walk ahead of Sufi Mohammad. ...... UNQUOTE > > > > This quote is from an article on Maulana Sufi Mohammad written by > Rahimullah Yusufzai. > > http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=175825 > > > > No green flag. No crescent and star on it. > > > > The green flag with the crescent and star on it which is used by Indian > Muslims has often caused misunderstandings. > > > > One recent example has been Simi Garewal talking about Pakistani Flags > being flown by Indian Muslims. She apologised later for having mistaken the > Islamic Flag of the Indian Muslims for the Pakistani Flag. > > > > The close resemblance between the 2 flags confused even > Anupam Chakravartty, who inspite of video coverage from Times Now showing > it to > be a Pakistani Flag, insisted that what was flown in Assam with " sickle > (sic) and star on green background is an islamic symbol" > > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2009-April/018755.html > > > > In an earlier mail I had commented: > > > > """""" If this is factual, then the question > arises for the Indian Muslims that should they be thinking about using the > Islamic Flag without the Crescent and Star so that it does not appear to be > close to being the flag of Pakistan? """""" > > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2008-December/017016.html > > > > Just thinking aloud > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From shuddha at sarai.net Wed May 6 19:00:33 2009 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 19:00:33 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims In-Reply-To: <562330.29752.qm@web90404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <74892.42762.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <562330.29752.qm@web90404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7EF04CD5-753C-4808-91A6-7D5028DA967E@sarai.net> I, for one, am grateful that several hundreds of thousands amongst our forefathers and foremothers (in all cultures and traditons available to us) broke the chains of servitude that tied them to ways of life that denied them a basic human dignity. Our lives would have been much poorer had it not been for their decisions to walk away from the faiths that they were born into, and embrace other faiths, or embrace a space of radical doubt. Probably, this break, which Chanchal Malviya, reads as a 'betrayal of Hinduism' (though many of them were not what we recognize as Hindus today) is what caused a great deal of necessary introspection to occur amongst the practitioners of the Bhakti traditions in medieval South Asia. Personally, I think it saved Hinduism, by providing a catalyst for self-critical reflection. Even a Vivekananda, (who by the way was an open admirer of the histroy and legacy of Islam in the south asian subcontinent) would not have been who he was, but for this long chain of transmission of what Shrimant Malviya dismisses as betrayal. I find several of Shrimant Malviya's other assertions laughable, particularly his suggestion that child marriage in Hindu traditions, as imposed by Brahmins, is in fact a response to what he (disgustingly) calls 'Islamic' rapers. Perhaps Shrimant Malviya would like to consult his nearest available copy of the DharmaShastras, or even a a reasonable commentary, to explain what the term "Pradanam prak rtoh" - an explicit legal-scriptural injunction, namely, that a woman must be given away (in marriage) before she attains puberty means. Or has he decided that the standard of what constitutes 'childhood' must be re-calibrated in Pre-Islamic South Asia to suit an eternally flexible and opportunist criterion that Shrimant Malviya and his cohorts will decide for us. If that is not the case, then Shrimant Malviya is simply ignorant, (like most Hindutva-vadis are, of the substantive content of the traditions that they glorify). Perhaps he could begin to undo the damage he does by learning elementary Sanskrit, and paying more attention to the collected works of Narendranath Dutt, also known as Vivekananda. Namaskar Shuddha On 06-May-09, at 9:31 AM, chanchal malviya wrote: > Indian Muslims are those whose forefathers betrayed with their own > base foundation Hinduism - either out of fear or lust. > Indian Muslims are those who historically didn't play a major role > in Indian Independence, and rather took lead in Khilafat with > Gandhi (the apostole of peace) to massacre over 10,000 Hindus in > the name of God... > Indian Muslims are those who established a thick line in 1947 that > they cannot live with Hindus who unfortunately happens to be their > own ancestral brothers... > India Muslims now have loosed their credibility of being a part of > Nationalist attitude by publicly denying to accept National Anthem, > National Song and denying Bharat as maata... when these things > should have nothing to take with Hindus... but now slogans like > 'Bharat maata ki Jai', 'Jana gana mana', 'vande maatram'... are all > part of only Hindu culture... > Indian Muslims are now a partners of Terrorism, and by and large > declared Terrorism... most of their leaders shout publicly that > every Muslim should be a terrorist with some logical background > that terrorism should be for non-believers often purified through > management language... > Indian Muslims or any Muslim in this world (barring exceptions - 1 > to 2 % of the population), has to re-establish their credibility > that they are humans and worshipers of humanity first before > unknown, unseen God who according to them hates, prepares fire of > hell, prepared heaven with houris and virgins, asks people to > murder... > > WHO WILL SOLVE THIS IGNORANCE OF HATRED IN THE NAME OF GOD - ONLY > HINDUS... That is the reason Muslims have existed from over > thousand years in India, and Hindus and others have been eliminated > from Islamic lands... > Historically proven, demography of today proves this... > > One should not enforce their own intolerance upon Hindus in the > name of Babri and Gujarat Riots... They must go back into 1000 > years of History which created Babri.. Kashmir.. and Godhra... One > must talk of CAUSE and not EFFECT alone... The Effect on Hindus are > much deeper than anything else in this world... > > The well integrated four Varnas - popularly known as Aryas - were > divided and remains divided because of Invasion and Western > Politics still ruling this nation... > The ever free women of India were put under 'Ghunghat' for ever to > hide their face from the Islamic looters... Brahmins had to impose > child marriage among Hindus because their girls were picked away at > an early age in the name of 'Virgin' given by God to Islamic > rapers... British took advantage of this and teached the whole > population that these are the raw culture of Hinduism... > > Unfortunate, the same Best Scientists, Philosophers, Pschologists > and all failed to defeat Swami Vivekananda who put Hinduism on top > of everything on their land... Read him, read Hinduism from its > scripture (and not from the mouth of Dr. Zakir Naik)... and you > will know that WORLD LIVES BECAUSE HINDUISM IS ALIVE EVEN IN ISLAM > AND CHRISTIANITY... > > A person respecting his parents is Hinduism, A person loyarl to his > Religous Guru is Hinduism, A person dedicated to his job is > Hinduism, A person marrying and leading a stable family is > Hinduism... A person getting spiritual in line with God is Hinduism... > You may change the books, induce impurity in the name of God in > those books... but the truth will ever remain... The world exists > because of Hinduism and the world will exist only as long as > Hinduism is alive - directly or indirectly.... > > > > > ________________________________ > From: M Javed > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > Cc: sarai list > Sent: Tuesday, May 5, 2009 5:38:01 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims > > Dear Kshmendra > > Who is an Indian Muslim? > > We need to answer this before we can answer your "...should they be > thinking about using the Islamic flag..." > > Javed > > > > On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 5:19 PM, Kshmendra Kaul > wrote: >> >> QUOTE: >> >> It also carried drawings of two white and black flags, the former >> being the main flag of Holy Prophet Muhammad (Peace be Upon Him) >> and the latter his military standard. Even now, black-turbaned >> TNSM members carry the small white and black flags as they walk >> ahead of Sufi Mohammad. ...... UNQUOTE >> >> This quote is from an article on Maulana Sufi Mohammad written by >> Rahimullah Yusufzai. >> http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=175825 >> >> No green flag. No crescent and star on it. >> >> The green flag with the crescent and star on it which is used by >> Indian Muslims has often caused misunderstandings. >> >> One recent example has been Simi Garewal talking about Pakistani >> Flags being flown by Indian Muslims. She apologised later for >> having mistaken the Islamic Flag of the Indian Muslims for the >> Pakistani Flag. >> >> The close resemblance between the 2 flags confused even Anupam >> Chakravartty, who inspite of video coverage from Times Now showing >> it to be a Pakistani Flag, insisted that what was flown in Assam >> with " sickle (sic) and star on green background is an islamic >> symbol" >> http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2009-April/018755.html >> >> In an earlier mail I had commented: >> >> """""" If this is factual, then the question arises for the Indian >> Muslims that should they be thinking about using the Islamic Flag >> without the Crescent and Star so that it does not appear to be >> close to being the flag of Pakistan? """""" >> http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2008-December/017016.html >> >> Just thinking aloud >> >> Kshmendra >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Wed May 6 19:37:28 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 15:07:28 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims In-Reply-To: <801817.40396.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <341380d00905050818h10fa58e9o71fae252a91a8a3f@mail.gmail.com> <801817.40396.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <65be9bf40905060707u2981034dkdae54a3f0eb100cd@mail.gmail.com> Dear All, Dear Kshmendra In the first mail of this thread, there are following references to the so called 'Indian Muslims' -The green flag with the crescent and star on it which is used by Indian Muslims.. -One recent example has been Simi Garewal talking about Pakistani Flags being flown by Indian Muslims. - If this is factual, then the question arises for the Indian Muslims that should they be thinking about using the Islamic Flag without the Crescent and Star so that it does not appear to be close to being the flag of Pakistan? Yet it is stated in your response above that- I was not talking about 'Indian Muslims' as a monolithic entity. I understand that you were trying to draw attention to the purported relationship between a flag and a religious entity. That point is taken. I have no problems with it. None what so ever. However my contention still stands. Could you please elaborate on the use of what seems like an explicit social category called 'Indian Muslims'? -On crescent and star We all know that crescent and star as a symbol was first developed during the reign of Zhou dynasty. And it has survived in various forms with Greeks, Persians and Mongols before Turks appropriated it much later. Therefore to ascribe chand-tara to an erstwhile corrupt despotic empire is still okay with me but to associate it with something that which is an unclear social category is problematic. I know that one can find many instances in popular culture of south asia where we can see an association between chand-tara and Islam, but, could we take this representation as given? Interestingly crescent and star is also the symbol of New Orleans Police department which to the best of my knowledge is neither Indian or Muslim. Regards Taha From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed May 6 19:38:01 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 07:08:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?q?Where_is_our_yellow_ribbon=3F_=E2=80=94Ay?= =?utf-8?q?eda_Naqvi?= Message-ID: <397186.22572.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> EXCERPTS:   - What is so wrong with being a patriot? And why are we afraid to rally behind our armed forces, to send out positive, supportive signs as these men lay down their lives for us? - These are men who willingly lay down their lives, men who often return maimed or paralysed to their families. In other countries, such men would enjoy heroic statures. And yet, here in Pakistan, when they turn on their television sets at night, they see their nation scoffing at them.   - Here in Pakistan today, we are too busy either being Taliban apologists or posing as intellectuals who feel it is our duty to run down everything in sight, without thinking of the national interest. - Our intellectuals will have to learn that it is possible to be analytical without being negative, to be patriotic without being brainless.     Kshmendra       Tuesday, May 05, 2009   "Where is our yellow ribbon?" —Ayeda Naqvi   Many years ago, as a student in New York, I was invited to my roommate’s house for the weekend. Her parents lived a couple of hours away from the city in a quiet little town where she had grown up. As for myself, I must admit, I was looking forward to leaving the concrete jungle of Manhattan behind for a few days. As we drove over the Willis Avenue Bridge towards the Taconic Parkway, leaving the grey high-rises behind, I saw more than just the landscape change. And I realised that Manhattan was an island in more ways than one. Besides being physically set apart from the land around it, it stood alone in its liberalism. The left-wing writers whom I loved, my professors who freely criticised their government, even the people rallying in front of the United Nations in protest of Bush Sr’s invasion of Iraq, had no place in small town America. This was a place where everyone was a “patriot”. As we drove through the cluster of little streets that led to her house, I noticed that all the houses in her neighbourhood had either an American flag or a giant yellow ribbon pasted on the front door. The flag, I understood — the country was at war. But the yellow ribbon? “It’s our way of saying we support our troops,” said my roommate. “But you said you didn’t feel that the invasion of Iraq was justified,” I said. “I don’t,” she replied. “But I still support our troops — our soldiers who are willing to die for us.” That weekend, I admit, I got into many a debate about the yellow ribbons. Not only were they on the houses, they were pinned onto people’s clothes! They irked me. If you didn’t agree with your government, how could you support your troops? They were, after all, carrying the government’s agenda. I returned to the city on Sunday night quite irritated, convinced that everyone in suburbia was brainwashed. It has been more than 17 years since that day. Much has happened in the world since then. But today, as Pakistan stands on the verge of anarchy, at war with an enemy that has seeped into the very fabric of our society, I long for an expression of unity. And I find myself thinking more and more of that yellow ribbon. What is so wrong with being a patriot? And why are we afraid to rally behind our armed forces, to send out positive, supportive signs as these men lay down their lives for us? Since 9/11, the Pakistani army has suffered more than any other army in the world in terms of casualties. And yet we get nothing but negative reports about its performance in the media. One can be angry with Zardari, think that Musharraf sold out and believe that the ISI is a “sinister” organisation with its own agenda without losing compassion for our soldiers, the young men who are being killed every day. These are men who willingly lay down their lives, men who often return maimed or paralysed to their families. In other countries, such men would enjoy heroic statures. And yet, here in Pakistan, when they turn on their television sets at night, they see their nation scoffing at them. So fond of flinging mud on all in sight, our media moguls seem to have lost sight of the larger picture. And so used to being cynical, we have stopped empathising with those willing to die for us. Seventeen years ago, I met a group of people in a small suburb of New York who were neither sophisticated nor educated. And yet they were able to recognise the shades of grey, the fact that it is possible to support your troops without blindly supporting your government. Here in Pakistan today, we are too busy either being Taliban apologists or posing as intellectuals who feel it is our duty to run down everything in sight, without thinking of the national interest. As we stand on the eve of a massive crackdown on the Taliban, we need to realise that in the weeks and months ahead, there will be blood — dead soldiers and dead civilians. And yet there has never been a greater time to stand behind our troops, to show solidarity as a nation if we want to defeat the single greatest threat to our way of life. Our intellectuals will have to learn that it is possible to be analytical without being negative, to be patriotic without being brainless. And our media moguls and talk show hosts will have to learn to stop catering to the lowest common denominator by sympathising with a group of murderers. When Jinnah created Pakistan, he envisioned us as a nation that adhered to the principles of “Unity”, “Faith” and “Discipline”. For me there can be no greater show of unity than for a nation to support its troops. Maybe a yellow ribbon is not the answer. But I, for one, am putting a Pakistani flag outside my house today to show my solidarity with my nation — the one created by Jinnah, not the Taliban. Ayeda Naqvi is a journalist who lives and works in Lahore. She can be contacted at ayedanaqvi at yahoo.com   http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2009%5C05%5C05%5Cstory_5-5-2009_pg3_2   From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed May 6 19:47:36 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 19:47:36 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Communism in a Hindu Nation Message-ID: <6b79f1a70905060717u601e0677tcce024de6389d3fd@mail.gmail.com> http://mevidur.wordpress.com/2009/05/05/nepal-communism-in-a-hindu-nation/ I was disturbed by the ongoing war in Sri Lanka and the plight of Sri Lankan Tamils and hence last week I wrote twice on the matter. I thought that now till May 16, I will write only on the ongoing elections in my country, because it concerns our future. But Nepal government’s brinkmanship and harakiri forced me to write on the topic today. Which party comes to power in Nepal is definitely the internal matter of Nepali people. So when communists were voted to power, I looked at the situation with alarm but finally I resigned to the fait accomply and moved on. Then the communists started imposing their hidden agenda. The apprehension, which I had about them, appeared to be true. They abolished “ Hindu Nation ” status of Nepal. The only Hindu Nation of the world is now a thing of the past. They made Nepal a secular country. World tolerated this as there are so many misgivings about the word Hindu, though unnecessarily. Then they abolished the monarchy. Shah dynasty was ruling Nepal since centuries. I remember Tribhuvan Vir Vikram Shah, Mahendra Vir Vikram Shah and Birendra Vir Vikam Shah, three genaration of Nepali kings, who were true friends of India. King Birendra was killed in his palace under mysterious circumstances and his brother Gyanendra was crowned as a new king. In Nepal, the king is regarded as the custodian of the revered Pashupati Nath temple. Not caring about Hindu sentiments, he was deposed by communists by a constitutional provision and after that virtually quarantined in a secluded building. They didn’t stop here. Hell bent on hurting Hindu sentiments and that to successfully twice, they decided to remove head priest of Pashupati Nath temple and appointed a crony of their’s. The Indian origin of the head priest was the pretext, but it was a centuries old tradition. They ignored it and appointed a priest of Nepali origin. This time there were widespread protests and they had to backtrack. After burning their fingers they remain silent for few months. Soon they found a new target. Under the pretext of integrating maoist gurillas in the Royal Nepal Army, they started putting pressure on the army chief. When he didn’t relent and communists found him not to be amenable, he was unceremoniously dismissed. He refuses to vacate his post and the country plunges into turmoil. In this matter the government ignored advice of Indian government also. I fail to understand the motive of communists. They want to undo everything which are centuries old. They want to undermine India’s position and want to sever all the ties with India. They want to abrogate Indo-Nepal treaty. They want to have closer ties with China. And they are pursuing all these things vigorously. They should know and remember one thing. They are elected representative of the people and can’t impose their will mercilessly. They believe in dictatorship of the proletariat, but that kind of communism is banished from their fatherland also. They are playing with fire, which will engulf them one day for sure. Vidur www.vidur.co.in From alinamal2009 at gmail.com Wed May 6 20:10:15 2009 From: alinamal2009 at gmail.com (Alina MediaArtLab) Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 18:40:15 +0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Attention!!! MediaArtLab extends the deadline for receipt of applications for Media Forum 2009 Message-ID: <58e659f0905060740r751e0fe2ub0dfbdafbd7c4163@mail.gmail.com> Centre for Art and Culture MediaArtLab extends the deadline for receipt of applications for Media Forum 2009 that will be held in the frame of 31 Moscow International Film Festival from 23 to 28 of June. DEADLINE - 10 of MAY!!! The hole media spectrum: cinema extension! This is the 10 years Media Forum exists. The objective of Media Forum is to demonstrate the connection between traditional and modern branches of screen culture, the impact of technological innovations on visual arts. We hope that you will be interested to learn more about Media Forum 2009 here http://mediaforum.mediaartlab.ru/en/ From c.anupam at gmail.com Wed May 6 20:26:53 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 20:26:53 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims In-Reply-To: <65be9bf40905060707u2981034dkdae54a3f0eb100cd@mail.gmail.com> References: <341380d00905050818h10fa58e9o71fae252a91a8a3f@mail.gmail.com> <801817.40396.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <65be9bf40905060707u2981034dkdae54a3f0eb100cd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00905060756g25fb72fbpf2c821808ca6a809@mail.gmail.com> Dear Kshmendra, I have just one problem when such issues are being raised. Why are we discussing Indian Muslims as a whole because a relief camp in some corner of this country facing an ethnic conflict? Do you think we, as a nation, are ready to discuss religion when it is in such a fragile state having clowns as leaders? Hardening of religious identities are taking precedence over the basic amenities that a person, a human being, deserves in this country. My sole objective is to dispel this hardening of our religious identities. And obviously, keeping in mind the hardening of Hindu identity, which is scattered worries me more. I feel in process of hardening Hindu identity it would loose its very essence, its intangible, meditative nature, which one can experience without even going to a temple. I am equally scared of the hardening of Muslim identity in the country. However, I am a Hindu by birth, so I shall only be criticizing, questioning my faith. I do not have any right to express criticism about a religion, which I do not belong to. In that way, I feel I can deride this majoritarian tendency of some power hungry individuals to dominate the religion and mould its identity in such a way that it can allow only chosen few things to grow. When several studies are done to explore this religion, find out finer aspects where this religion gets fused with local forms of worship, there are another set of people trying to shape up a pan-Indian identity of this religion by raising issues about an ancient mosque and grandiose plan to make a temple and turn it into a tourist spot. Next thing I will know is that Ram is tall muscular DC comic like warrior forgetting the effeminate imagery of Ram the compassionate one, Tulsidas’ Ram, or Mahatma Gandhi’s Ram. Ram, who would not have built a temple by destroying another’s place of worship. Chanchal, don’t you think this is worse than the forced conversions? Ironically, a generalised statement: “we do not have food to eat” is difficult to assert about a nation following the logical and statistical problems that it may create, But I am surprised that we are comfortable in the blame game of who caused the first religious strife and asserting generalised opinions about specific community. Call me a communist, sickular, whatever you want. The struggle is not about religion; it’s about being territorial behaving like canines. Who gets to own more land irrespective of what colour your flag is. Anupam On 5/6/09, Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> wrote: > > Dear All, Dear Kshmendra > > In the first mail of this thread, there are following references to > the so called 'Indian Muslims' > > -The green flag with the crescent and star on it which is used by > Indian Muslims.. > > -One recent example has been Simi Garewal talking about Pakistani > Flags being flown by Indian Muslims. > > - If this is factual, then the question arises for the Indian Muslims > that should they be thinking about using the Islamic Flag without the > Crescent and Star so that it does not appear to be close to being the > flag of Pakistan? > > Yet it is stated in your response above that- I was not talking about > 'Indian Muslims' as a monolithic entity. > > I understand that you were trying to draw attention to the purported > relationship between a flag and a religious entity. That point is > taken. I have no problems with it. None what so ever. However my > contention still stands. > > Could you please elaborate on the use of what seems like an explicit > social category called 'Indian Muslims'? > > -On crescent and star > > We all know that crescent and star as a symbol was first developed > during the reign of Zhou dynasty. And it has survived in various forms > with Greeks, Persians and Mongols before Turks appropriated it much > later. > > Therefore to ascribe chand-tara to an erstwhile corrupt despotic > empire is still okay with me but to associate it with something that > which is an unclear social category is problematic. > > I know that one can find many instances in popular culture of south > asia where we can see an association between chand-tara and Islam, > but, could we take this representation as given? > > Interestingly crescent and star is also the symbol of New Orleans > Police department which to the best of my knowledge is neither Indian > or Muslim. > > Regards > > Taha > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From yasir.media at gmail.com Wed May 6 20:38:51 2009 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?windows-1256?B?eWFzaXIgfu3HINPR?=) Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 20:08:51 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims In-Reply-To: <745237.62712.qm@web94703.mail.in2.yahoo.com> References: <745237.62712.qm@web94703.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5af37bb0905060808x25b33974p9305cf6d59a4a89b@mail.gmail.com> dear vedavati and why would muslims attack hindus in any given context, even IF they chose to do so whether on the list or off, in the absence of the sickulars doing so? On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 4:05 PM, Vedavati Jogi wrote: > what you have written is partially correct. > muslims need not have to attack 'so called' hindus because that job is done > by 'sickulars' on readers-list. > > vedavati > > --- On Wed, 6/5/09, Jeebesh wrote: > > > From: Jeebesh > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims > To: "Sarai Reader-list" > Date: Wednesday, 6 May, 2009, 12:29 AM > > > dear All, > > I do not understand how constantly the list members keep attacking the > same entity called muslims and indian muslims. Well all attackers call > themselves hindus. The viscousness of the attacks baffles me. If they > had power and weapons they can do serious damage. > > On the other hand, i have not seen any person with so called "muslim > name" attack a Hindu or Hinduism, on this list. So why does so called > Hindus keep attacking muslims in this list. What kind of blood lust is > this? > > Now days Hinduism is a fairly celebrated religion and thousands of > publications and places of worship is a sure sign of that. Yet a weird > sense of injured self seem to have justified all kind of rabble rousing. > > Being cautious of authoritarian organization is one thing, but to keep > on attacking a group of people is appalling. > > warmly > jeebesh > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > Own a website.Get an unlimited package.Pay next to nothing.*Go to > http://in.business.yahoo.com/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed May 6 20:51:27 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 20:51:27 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Rise Of Barmarks Message-ID: <6b79f1a70905060821hd5a2a15yfccbc38fe5270685@mail.gmail.com> *The Rise Of Barmarks* ** *By Dr. Ramesh Kumar* ** The reign of the Abbasid Caliph Harun Rashid (786-809) has been noted for its literary brilliance. He has often been described as *Charlemagne of the East. *According to *Amir Ali*, the distinguished scholar, *“the glory and renown of Rashid's administration are mostly due to the wisdom and ability of the men to whom he entrusted the government of the empire for the first seventeen years of his reign”.* Abbasids owed their elevation to Persians, particularly to people of Khurasan. In turn, their rule saw ascendancy of Persians over Arabs. The Khurasani family, which played a crucial role (752-904) during the Abbasid rule was the celebrated house of *Barmak or Barmecides*. They wisely directed the affairs of the caliphate. Through generous patronage of learning, lavish hospitality and wise administration they conferred lustre on the reigns of first five Abbasid Caliphs. The Barmakids were the most efficient administrators the Caliphate had seen and their vizirate brought peace and stability to the outlying provinces. In Baghdad the court of Barmaks became a Centre of patronage for the Ulema, poets, scholars alike. The arts of civilised life were cultivated everywhere. This noble ancient Persian family has been hailed by scholars for its statesmanship, generosity and administrative capacity. Barmaks served Abbasid rulers with unswerving fidelity and extraordinary ability. The people were prosperous and happy. The empire had grown rich and strong. National wealth had increased. The Barmak family headed the Revenue Department. They followed a strict policy of taxation with the sole objective of enriching the state treasury. The Barmaks were keen in displaying leniency and gave concessions to the eastern provinces, particularly Khurassan even at the cost of the Treasury. *E.G. Browne*, the author of *Literary History of Persia, *compares Barmak family to Nidhamul-Mulk and Juwayni families. It was because of the conciliatory policy of influence of Barmecides that Persian-Arab balance of power remained in place, which gave stability to the Abbasid dynasty. *Prof. Philip Hitti says, "their (Barmaks') generosity was proverbial. Even today in all the Arabic-speaking lands the word barmaki is used as a synonym of generous and "as munificent as Ja' far is a simile that is everywhere well understood". *A number of canals, mosques and other public works owe their existence to the initiative and munificence of the Barmakids. Al Fadl, son of Yahya bin barmak is credited with being the first to introduce the use of lamps in the mosques during the holy month of Ramadan. Ja'far, another son of Yahya acquired great fame for eloquence, literary activity and pen-manship. Hitti argues that chiefly because of him Arab historians regard the Barmakids as the founders of the class designated as *'people of the pen' (ahl al-qalam)* But he was more than a man of letters. He was a leader of fashion, and the long neck which he possessed is said to have been responsible for the introduction of the custom of wearing high collars. *Amir Ali laments, "but their grandeur and magnificence, their benefactors and lavish charity, which made them the idols of the masses, raised a host of enemies who were determined by every means in their power to bring about their ruin".* *Origin :* Who were these Barmaks? What was their ancestry? Some Arabic writers believe that the Barmaks were originally Iranians and were the head-priests of the fire-temple of Naubahar near Balkh. *Al Masudi *in *Muruuju dh Dhabab *says Barmak, the ancestor of this family was a Magian and high priest of great fire-temple at Naubahar. He remarks,* "He who exercised these functions (Chief Priest) was respected by the Kings of this country and administered the wealth offered to the temple. He was called Barmak, a name given to those invested with this dignity, whence is derived the name of the Barmecides (Barmaki, from Baramika); for Khalid bin Barmak was the son of one of these great Pontiffs".* Recent researches, however, indicate that Barmaks were not Persians but belonged to northern India, most probably Kashmir. *Prof. Zabiullah Safavi *of Teheran University in his great work *Barmikyans *puts forth this view. Similar view is held by *Sayyid Sulayman **(Arab-o-Hind Ke Talloqat, 1930), *who further argues that Naubahar was not a Zoroastrian fire-temple but a Buddhist temple. *W. Barthold*, the authority on Central Asian history too agrees with this view that Naubahar was a Buddhist temple. Barmaks in later years took deep interest in India. In fact, the first extant Arabic report on India was prepared under the directions of Yahya bin Barmak (d. 805) by his envoy. Barmaks were responsible for inviting several scholars and physicians from India to the court of Abbasids. Renowned historian, *DP Singhal *says Barmaks were Indian-trained or Indian ministers, under whose patronage and tactful administration, Baghdad became a centre of Indian learning, particularly astronomy and mathematics. *Scholar RS Pandit remarks that the name Barmak is of Indian origin. He observes, "The Barmak family had been converted but their contemporaries never thought much of their profession of Islam nor regarded it as genuine (Al-Fihirist by Ibnul-Nadeem). They also engaged Hindu scholars to come to Baghdad, made them the Chief Physicians of their hospitals and got them to translate, from Sanskrit to Arabic, books on medicine, toxicology, philosophy and other subjects".* According to *Prof. C.S. Upasak (History of Buddhism in **Afghanistan**) *the name 'Baramik' is a derivative of the term *Vara-Aramika, *meaning the 'Chief of the Attendants of an Arama' or Buddhist monastery. Aramika is an attendant of an Arama or Sangharama who looks after the Vihara, its property etc. as appointed by the Sangha. The Nava-Vihara possessed good landed property amounting to hundreds (1500 sq kms) of sq. kms. and so, numerous aramikas were appointed to look after it. The Chief of the Aramikas was called *'Vara-Aramika'.* *J. Harmatta and BA LiTvinsky present a different view (History of civilizations of Central Asia, Vol. III, p. 371).* They argue that the famous Barmakid family were apparently the descendants of the Hephthalite pramukhas of the Naubahar at Balkh. According to them the Hepthalite ruler of Balkh bore the Bactrian title *sava *(King), while the name of his son, Pariowk (in Armenian, clerical error for Parmowk) or Barmuda, Parmuda (in Arabic and Persian, clerical error for Barmuka, Parmuka) goes back to the Buddhist title pramukha. It shows that he was the lord and head of the great Buddhist Centre Naubahar at Balkh. His dignity and power were thus more of an ecclesiastic than of secular nature. Prof. S. Maqbool Ahmed, former Director Central Asian Studies Kashmir University, is of the view that the Barmak family originated in Kashmir. During the years of turbulence, mother of Khalid bin barmak and Khalid had sought refuge in Kashmir. *Nau-Vihara** **Temple** :* Balkh is one of the oldest towns in the world, being the birthplace of Zoraster. As per Zorastrian tradition Balkh was built by first Aryan ruler Bakhdi. Ancient Greek historians called, it Bactra, (Baktra or Bactria) and the whole country 'Bactriana'. Situated in north-west Afghanistan, its present capital is *Mazar-i-Sharif*. It is a small town now, lying in ruins. In Indian literature Balkh has been described as Balhika, Valhika or Bahlika. Balkh town became popular to other Buddhist countries because of two great sons of Afghanistan-Tapassu and Bhallika. There are two stupas over their relics. As per a popular legend, Buddhism was introduced in Balkhby Bhallika, disciple of Buddha. He was a merchant of the region and had come to Bodhgaya. First Vihara at Balkh was built for Bhallika when he returned home after becoming a Buddhist monk. H. Tsiang visited Balkh in 630 when it was a flourishing centre of Hinayana Buddhism. People called the city *‘Little Rajagriha’ *since it housed many sacred relics. Balkh was first subjected to pillage and plunder by Alexander in 329 B.C. It came under Hepthalites or Huns by the end of 4th Century A.D. Kanishka had been the first Buddhist to rule Balkh. The early Huns followed a religion akin to Zorastrianism and worshipped fire and Sun. Subsequently, Hun Kings became followers of Buddhism. Buddhism was introduced in and around Central Asia in the first Century A.D. by Kashmiris and other Buddhists from north-west India. They set up small colonies at Cokkuka (Yarkand), Sailadesa (Kashgar), Kotamna-Godana (Khotan), Calmadana (Cherchen). The Kings in these places claimed descent from Indian royal families. The Nava-Vihara was an important Buddhist monastery in Balkh for advance learning. It was a strongly built Vihara and was remarkable for its imposing structure. This Vihara was most sacred place of Balkh for it housed in its shrine-hall the water-basin (pot) and a tooth-relic of the Buddha, about one inch long of yellow-white colour. At this place a sweeping brush of the Buddha, made of Kusa grass, about three feet long and seven inches round with ornamented handle, was also kept. These sacred objects made this Vihara a shrine of great esteem and veneration for monks and lay-devotees alike. Hiuen-tsiang made a visit to this vihara. Though he was a Mahayani, he chose to stay here, a Centre of Hinyana school. He records, *"there is a figure of Buddha which is lustrous with noted gems, and the hall in which it stands is also adorned with precious substances of rare value. This is the reason why it has often been robbed by chieftains of neighbouring countries, covetous of gain".* There was also a statue of Pi-Shamen (Vaisravana) deva who has always protected this Sangharama. To the north of the Sangharama there was a very huge stupa of 200 feet in height, covered with a plaster, hard as the diamond and ornamented with a variety of precious substances. This stupa contained the sacred body relic of the Buddha. As per Hiuen-tsiang the *Nava-Vihara* (or *Nava Sangharama) *was built outside the city on the north-west quarter. He informs that it was built by a former King. The Nava-Vihara, or the 'New Monastery' suggests the existence of an 'old Vihara' which stood in old days somewhere in the town. The old Vihara, built ten centuries ago, had totally crumbled down. Hiuen-Tsiang, however, refers to another Vihara to the south-west, not very far from the Nava-Vihara which had developed as a great centre for practical training of Buddhism, i.e. *Patipatti.* Nava-Vihara developed as a great Centre for advanced study of the Later Tharavada or Hinayana school of Buddhism. This Sangharama specialised in the Abhidharmic group of study. The courses included the Three Pitakas with its nine Angas (Navanga). Nava-Vihara was also a great Centre for the studies in the Vibhasasastra of the Sarvastivadins. Prof. C.S. Upasak opines that in terms of high academic standard and stature no other University in Buddhist world at that time rivalled Nava-Vihara, not even Nalanda Mahavihara. Also Nava-Vihara was the only institution, where only highly learned monks who had already composed some Sastra in Buddhism could he admitted. According to Hieuen Tsang it was the only Buddhist establishment north of Hindu Kush in which there was a constant succession of masters who were commentators of the canon. It was the pride of Afghanistan. The illustrious monk-scholars who stayed at this Vihara included Pranjakara (the great priest of the Kingdom of Tabak), Dharmapriya, Cittavarma, Dharmakara. I-tsing, another Chinese Buddhist scholar visited this Vihara in 700-712 AD. He speaks high about the studies being pursued at this Vihara, Sanskrit too was taught here. Both Hiuen-tsiang and I-tsing studied at nava-Vihara for sometime. Geographer *al-Qazwini (Athar-ul-Bilad) *too refers to this great monastery. He records. *“The Persians and Turks used to rever it (The **temple** of **Nawabahar**) and perform pilgrimages to it, and present offerings to it. Its length was one hundred cubits, its breadth the same, and its height somewhat more, and the care of it was invested in the Baramika. The Kings' of India and China used to come to it, and when they reached it they worshipped the idol, and kissed Barmak's hand, and Barmak's rule was paramount in all these lands. And they ceased not, Barmak after Barmak, until Khurasan was conquered in the days of Uthman b. Affan and the guardship of the temple came at length to Barmak, the father of Khalid”.* Arab Conquest of Balkh : Arabs were so much impressed by Balkh's prosperity and magnificence that they called this town *‘Mother of Cities’ (oumm-ul-belad).* Trade and commerce of Balkh was quite brisk. It acted as a trade exchange centre of the east and the west. A Hepthalite King, notorious for his savage nature, is said to have ruthlessly destroyed some Buddhist temples and stupas. He resorted to this plunder because of opposition of Balkh people to his rule and religious beliefs. However, he was not a persecutor of Buddhism and many monastic centres continued to flourish. Arabs occupied Persia in 642 (during the Caliphate of Uthman, 644-656 AD). Attracted by grandeur and wealth of Balkh, they attacked it in 645 AD. It was only in 653 when Arab commander, al-Ahnaf raided the town again and compelled it to pay tribute. The Arab hold over the town, however, remained tenuous. The area was brought under Arabs' control only after it was reconquered by Muawiya in 663 AD. Prof. Upasak describes the effect of this conquest in these words: *"The Arabs plundered the town and killed the people indiscriminately. It is said that they raided the famous Buddhist shrine of Nava-Vihara, which the Arab historians call 'Nava Bahara' and describe it as one of the magnificent places which, comprised a range of 360 cells around the high stupas'. They plundered the gems and jewels that were studded on many images and stupas and took away the wealth accumulated in the Vihara but probably did no considerable harm to other monastic buildings or to the monks residing there".* The Arab authors have left interesting accounts of the destruction of Nava-Bahara The Arab attacks had little effect on the normal ecclesiastical life in the monasteries or Balkh Buddhist population outside. Buddhism continued to flourish with their monasteries as the centres of Buddhist learning and training. Scholars, monks and pilgrims from China, India and Korea continued to visit this place. Several revolts were made against the Arab rule in Balkh. The Arabs' control over Balkh could not last long as it soon came under the rule of a local prince, called Nazak (or Nizak) Tarkhan. He threw out Arabs from his territories in 670 or 671. He was a zealous Buddhist. He is said to have not only reprimanded the Chief-Priest (Barmak) of Nava-Vihara but beheaded him for embracing Islam. As per another account, when Balkh was conquered by the Arabs, the head priest of the Nava-Vihara had gone to the capital and became a Muslim. This displeased the people of the Balkh. He was deposed and his son was placed in his position. Nazak Tarkhan is also said to have murdered not only the Chief Priest but also his sons. Only a young son was saved. He was taken by his mother to Kashmir where he was given training in medicine, autonomy and other Indian sciences. Later they returned to Balkh. *Prof. Maqbool Ahmed *observes," *One is tempted to think that the family originated from **Kashmir**, for in time of distress, they took refuge in the Valley. Whatever it be, their Indian origin is undoubted and this also explains the deep interest of the Barmaks, in later years, in India, for we know they were responsible for inviting several scholars and physicians from India to the Court of Abbasids*." Prof. Maqbool also refers to the descriptions of Kashmir contained in the report on India prepared by the envoy of Yahya bin Barmak. He surmises that the envoy could have possibly visited Kashmir during the reign of Samgramapida II (797-801). Reference has been made to sages and arts. The Arabs could bring Balkh under their control in 715 AD only, inspite of strong resistance offered by the Balkh people. Qutayba bin Muslim al-Bahili, an Arab General was Governor of Khurasan and the east from 705-715. He established a firm Arab hold in lands beyond the oxus. He fought and killed Tarkhan Nizak in Tokharistan (Bactria) in 715. In the wake of Arab conquest the resident monks of the Vihara were either killed or forced to abandon their faith. The Viharas were razed to the ground. Priceless treasures in the form of manuscripts in the libraries of monasteries were consigned to ashes. Presently, only the ancient wall of the town, which once encircled it, stands partially. Nava-Vihara stands in ruins, near *Takhta-i-Rustam*. *Ascendancy of Barmaks :* The Governor of Khurasan, who killed Tarkhan Nizak in 715 had taken Khalid bin Barmak's mother as captive. During his Transoxus campaign from Sogdiana alone the captives numbered 100,000. Sources are silent on the fate of Barmak family in the period, 715-748. Khurasanis never accepted Arab rule under ummayads. In 748 Khurasan Governor Sayyar Al-Kinani (738-48) was killed by advancing Abbasid army. Khurasanis played a major role in Abbasid victory. Probably, Barmak family too played a critical role in it. Khurasanis gained ascendancy by right of precedence as *'sons of Abbasid revolution'* and also because of their experience of work in a bureaucracy, which the Transoxian land owners lacked, managing their small domains in a patriarchal manner. About the ascendancy of Khurasanis, Dozy (Hist. del 'Islamism, translated by Victor Chauvin) observes", The ascendancy of the Persians over the Arabs, that is to say of the conquered over the victors had already for a long while been in course of preparations; it became complete when the Abbasids, who owed their elevation to the Persians, ascended the throne". Abbasid Princes continued to repose their trust in Persians, especially Khurasanis. While Arabs occupied high positions in the Army, the Iranians and Tajiks gained upper hand in civil administration. During Abbasid revolution the Barmakid family took key role in dissemination of Abbasid influence in Khurasan. Barmakid family was connected through marriage ties with neighbouring princes of Transoxiana. *The religious, social and political prestige that the Barmakids commanded was a key reason why the Abbasids turned to them for support.* Khalid bin barmak was taken as the first vizier of the Caliphate. The Vizierate post was only next to Caliph and was all powerful, with authority to appoint and depose governors. *Phillip Hitti *has a different view. He says, “*though not actually a vizir, a minister in the literal sense of the term, this official of Persian origin (Khalid) seems to have acted on various occasions as counsellor for the Caliph and became the founder of an illustrious family of viziers"*. CE Bosworth, the noted authority, says this high administrative post was possibly influenced by the Sasanian administrative tradition and may have constituted a revival of the institution of the Vizier (buzurg farmander), or it may; on the other hand, have been an indigenous development within the Arab ministerial tradition. Khalid b. Barmak occupied distinguished positions under first two Abbasid Caliphs, al *Saffah* and *al Mansur*. He had risen to be the vizier, following death of Abu Salma and Abul Jahm. Khalid was on such intimate terms with al-saffah that his daughter was nursed by the wife of the Caliph. Likewise, Caliph's daughter was nursed by Khalid's wife. His son, Yahya b. Barmak, at one time Governor of Armenia, was entrusted by Caliph Mahdi (775-85) with the education of his son, Rashid. Under Abbasid regime Khalid rose to the headship (Chancellor of the exchequer) of the department of Finance (*diwan al-Kharaj*) This department was concerned with Taxation and Land Tenure. Genuine budgets began to be drawn up for the first time and offices sprang up for various departments. The extensive staff of officials engaged in correspondence with the provinces and prepared estimates and accounts. An influential stratum of officialdom, the Irano-Islamic class of secretaries (Arabic Kuttab, Persian dabiran), was formed which considered itself as the main support of the state. Their knowledge of the complex system of the Kharaj (land tax) which took account not only of the quality of the land but of the produce of the crops sown, made the officials of the diwan al-Kharaj the guardians of knowledge which was inaccessible to the uninitiated and was passed by inheritance. In 1765 Khalid b. Barmak received the governorship of Tabaristan, where he crushed a dangerous uprising. During his governorship of Mesopotamia, Khalid, through a mix of firmness and justice, brought the province quickly into order and effectively curbed the unruly Kurds. Even in his old age he distinguished himself at the capture of a byzantine fortress. He also reconciled Other religious dissidents to Abbasid power, after al-Mansur. Khalid b.Barmak had been instrumental in prevailing upon Isa b. Musa, the cousin and one-time designated heir apparent of the caliph al-Mansur to renounce his claims for succession in favour of al-Mansur's son, al-Mahdi. The fall of Barmaks is, in fact, a more fascinating story. *Suggested **Reading*** 1. History of Buddhism in Afghanistan, Prof. C.S. Upasak, Varanasi. 2. Historical Geography of Kashmir, S. Maqbul Ahmad and Raja Bano, New Delhi. 3. Re-interpretating Islamic Historiography, Tayeb El-Hibri, London. 4. A short history of the Saracens, Syed Amir Ali, Delhi. 5. A literary history of the Arabs, RA Nicholson, Delhi. 6. A Literary History of Persia, EG Browne, Vol. I, New Delhi. 7. History of the Arabs, Philip K. Hitti, Delhi. 8. India and World Civilisation, DP Singhal, Delhi. 9. Naw Bahar and the survival of Iranian Buddhism, RW Bulliet, Iran 14 (1976), 140-5. 10. The Barmakid Revolution in Islamic Govt, Persian and Islamic Studies in Honour of PW Avery, Pembroke Papers I, Cambridge. 11. The Arab conquests in Central Asia, HAR Gibb, New York. 12. The origin of the Vizierate and its True character, SD Goitein, Studies in Islamic History and Institutions, Leiden. 13. The Early Abbasid Vizierate, Journal of Semitic Studies, 37, 1992. 14. History of civilisations of Central Asia, BA Litvinsky et al Vol. III and IV, Delhi. **The author has worked on the ancestry of Allama Iqbal. * ** Source: Kashmir Sentinel From difusion at medialab-prado.es Wed May 6 21:15:06 2009 From: difusion at medialab-prado.es (difusion) Date: Wed, 06 May 2009 17:45:06 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] Call for papers> P2P Networks and Processes Message-ID: <4A01B082.5010509@medialab-prado.es> _CALL FOR PAPERS _*4th INCLUSIVA-NET MEETING: P2P NETWORKS AND PROCESSES International Seminar* Deadline for submissions: May 31, 2009 Event dates: July 6 to 10, 2009 in Medialab-Prado (Madrid, Spain) Medialab-Prado issues a call for the presentation of papers to be publicly presented during the 4th International Inclusiva-net Meeting. This edition will focus on an analysis of "peer-to-peer" networks and network processes, highlighting the social potentials of cooperative systems and processes based on the structures and dynamics inherent to these types of networks. Selected papers will be presented within a program that will also include invited lecturers and debates. Many topics will be addressed such as P2P networks as a way of democratizing access to culture, legal issues and controversies, educational and artistic applications, their role in the emergent countries, as well as other perspectives that make a broader reflection on P2P networks possible. More information and submission form: http://medialab-prado.es/inclusiva-net Contact: inclusiva2009 [at] medialab-prado.es -- Nerea García Garmendia Comunicación / Press Medialab-Prado Área de Las Artes, Ayuntamiento de Madrid Plaza de las Letras Alameda, 15 28014 Madrid Tfno. +34 914 202 754 difusion at medialab-prado.es www.medialab-prado.es From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Wed May 6 21:30:18 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 21:30:18 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] would you do this favour for the Delhi state also.? In-Reply-To: <61164a90905060352s19a756b2q5c51de43e18e1f93@mail.gmail.com> References: <61164a90905060352s19a756b2q5c51de43e18e1f93@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Rajen jee I knew that once the truth about Modi is out in the open, people will say 'so what? Are other chief ministers too good and Modi is too bad?' That is not the point though I was making by putting up that mail. What I wish to state is that Modi has unnecessarily propped up an image of his through which people are mistaken. People say he is not corrupt, but in his very government, there are ministers who have been involved in embezzling funds of cooperative banks. If supporting such ministers is not corruption, what is corruption then? He and his party accused Manmohan Singh of protecting Shibu Soren who was absconding while he was a minister. But when Maya ben Kodnani was also absconding, he didn't remove her from the ministry. Then how is he different from Manmohan? He couldn't prevent Godhra, neither could he prevent the violence which occurred after it. He and his govt. portrayed Godhra first as an ISI action. If one ISI action can spark so huge a violence, imagine if Narendra Modi were to be the PM of India. One terrorist attack is all it would take to ensure a genocide throughout India, destroying its secular fabric forever. Is that what we want? Narendra Modi had said during campaigning in 2002 Gujarat assembly elections, that if the Congress won, Pakistan would celebrate and if the BJP won India would celebrate. I don't know the link between Congress and Pakistan, but ironically BJP's victory must have made the ISI very happy at the fact that one action only attributed to them (not even proved) was enough to create a riot; when they really attack India, it will be enough to finish India internally without a single shot fired by the Pakistani army. And in this mail, I have talked the language of nationalists. So now decide, when the BJP wins, who celebrates: India, or the anti-India elements in Pakistan? As for Sheila Dikshit, Rajen jee, don;t worry, first I will put some more facts of Modi and his govt. and then I will take Sheila jee's truth out in the open. Hope that is fine. Regards Rakesh From anansi1 at earthlink.net Wed May 6 21:53:08 2009 From: anansi1 at earthlink.net (Paul D. Miller) Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 12:23:08 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [Reader-list] Pakistan's Border: Line of Fiction Message-ID: <772752.1241626988879.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Pakistan's Border's were drawn by Britain - the guy who drew the line barely bothered to do any research! Hilarious. I guess it's just one of those bizaare situations from the 20th century that just won't go away. Hundreds of thousands of people died in the ethnic cleansing that followed the imposition of the new border Sir Cyril drew between India and Pakistan - what will happen with the border between Afghanistan and Pakistan, yet another Western fiction? Paul Pakistan’s British-Drawn Borders http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/05/05/pakistans-british-drawn-borders/ Robert Mackey In their fascinating account of a series of interviews with a Taliban tactician in Tuesday’s New York Times, Jane Perlez and Pir Zubair Shah point to “one distinct Taliban advantage: the border between Afghanistan and Pakistan barely exists for the Taliban.” In previous posts on The Lede, we’ve mentioned that Pakistan and the rest of the world believes that Afghanistan ends (and Pakistan begins) more or less where a 1,600-mile line was drawn on the world map in 1893, at the direction of a British colonial officer named Henry Mortimer Durand, who sought to define the outer edge of what was then British India. At the time, the Afghans grudgingly accepted this map, despite the fact that what became known as the Durand Line cut right through Pashtun tribal areas and even villages that they considered part of Afghanistan. Sir Henry, whose portrait can be seen in Britain’s National Portrait Gallery in London, drew his line with the memory of Britain’s two failed wars against the Afghans fresh in his mind. Not long before, in 1879, during what the British call the Second Anglo-Afghan War, Sir Henry had completed and published an account of “The First Afghan War and Its Causes” begun by his father, Sir Henry Marion Durand. As Sir Henry noted in his introduction to the book (which has been scanned and posted online in its entirety by Google), his father, who died before he could complete the history, “had some special qualifications for the task,” having participated in that first, disastrous attempt to subdue Afghanistan, four decades earlier. So, as the entry on Pakistan in the Encarta encyclopedia explains, splitting the Pashtun tribes was in some sense the whole point of what is still known today as the Durand Line: As the British sought to expand their empire into the northwest frontier, they clashed with the Pashtun tribes that held lands extending from the western boundary of the Punjab plains into the kingdom of Afghanistan. The Pashtuns strongly resisted British invasions into their territories. After suffering many casualties, the British finally admitted they could not conquer the Pashtuns. In 1893 Sir Mortimer Durand, the foreign secretary of the colonial government of India, negotiated an agreement with the king of Afghanistan, Amir Abdur Rahman Khan, to delineate a border. The so-called Durand Line cut through Pashtun territories, dividing them between British and Afghan areas of influence. However, the Pashtuns refused to be subjugated under British colonial rule. The British compromised by creating a new province in 1901, named the North-West Frontier Province, as a loosely administered territory where the Pashtuns would not be subject to colonial laws. In November, 2001, as the United States confronted the Taliban in the aftermath of the attacks on the World Trade Cener and the Pentagon, Vartan Gregorian explained on The Times’s Op-Ed page how the arbitrary line the British colonial administration in India drew through “Pashtunistan” in the 19th century, which still forms much of the modern border, created problems that have still not been resolved in this volatile border region. As the scholar Barnett Rubin noted in an article in Foreign Affairs in 2007, when the British left India in 1947 and the northwest part of the territory was carved into the new state of Pakistan, the Afghans stopped recognizing the Durand Line as a border: Afghanistan claimed that Pakistan was a new state, not a successor to British India, and that all past border treaties had lapsed. A loya jirga in Kabul denied that the Durand Line was an international border and called for self-determination of the tribal territories as Pashtunistan. Skirmishes across the Durand Line began with the covert support of both governments. While the two governments today are not actually fighting a war over the location of the border, the fact that the Durand Line runs right through the traditional Pashtun lands means that Taliban fighters from Afghanistan blend easily into the local population on the Pakistani side of the frontier. Suggestions from Pakistan to stop illegal border crossings by either putting down land mines or erecting a fence have been rejected by Afghanistan’s President, Hamid Karzai, who is himself Pashtun. In January, Pierre Sprey, a former Pentagon official, told Bill Moyers in a discussion of American strategy for fighting militants along the Afghan-Pakistan border, calling the Pashtuns who live along both sides of the Durand Line “a tribe,” can be misleading. In an interview, Mr. Sprey said: It’s not a tribe. It’s a nation. This is 40 million people spread across Afghanistan and Pakistan, you know, who don’t even recognize that border. It’s their land. … There’s 40 million of them. That’s a nation, not a tribe. Within it are tribal groupings and so on. But they all speak the common language. And they all have a very similar, very rigid, in lots of ways very admirable code of honor much stronger than their adherence to Islam. Pakistan’s other borders were created in 1947 by another British colonial officer, Sir Cyril Radcliffe, who was made chairman of the boundary commission and given six weeks to carve a Muslim-majority state from British India. As the historian Karl Meyer wrote in his book “The Dust of Empire,” Sir Cyril “was a curious choice,” since he had never previously visited India. In a chapter called “Pakistan: Sins of Partition,” Mr. Meyer explained: As Radcliffe’s former private secretary, Christopher Beaumont, later remarked in an interview, the chairman had never traveled east and “was a bit flummoxed by the whole thing. It was a rather impossible assignment, really. To partition that subcontinent in six weeks was absurd.” Hundreds of thousands of people died in the ethnic cleansing that followed the imposition of the new border Sir Cyril drew between India and Pakistan. W.H. Auden made the absurdity of the way the border was created the subject of the poem “Partition,” published in 1966: Unbiased at least he was when he arrived on his mission, Having never set eyes on the land he was called to partition Between two peoples fanatically at odds, With their different diets and incompatible gods. “Time,” they had briefed him in London, “is short. It’s too late For mutual reconciliation or rational debate: The only solution now lies in separation. The Viceroy thinks, as you will see from his letter, That the less you are seen in his company the better, So we’ve arranged to provide you with other accommodation. We can give you four judges, two Moslem and two Hindu, To consult with, but the final decision must rest with you.” Shut up in a lonely mansion, with police night and day Patrolling the gardens to keep the assassins away, He got down to work, to the task of settling the fate Of millions. The maps at his disposal were out of date And the Census Returns almost certainly incorrect, But there was no time to check them, no time to inspect Contested areas. The weather was frightfully hot, And a bout of dysentery kept him constantly on the trot, But in seven weeks it was done, the frontiers decided, A continent for better or worse divided. The next day he sailed for England, where he could quickly forget The case, as a good lawyer must. Return he would not, Afraid, as he told his Club, that he might get shot. From indersalim at gmail.com Wed May 6 22:00:59 2009 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 22:00:59 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?Where_is_our_yellow_ribbon=3F_=97A?= =?windows-1252?q?yeda_Naqvi?= In-Reply-To: <397186.22572.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <397186.22572.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70905060930m739a9d92k68b2fa2b97386324@mail.gmail.com> Dear all "Scholar's ink is more precious than Martyrs blood", this quote is attributed to Prophet Mohammad himself. I see wisdom in this quote, and so i dont see much merit when Ayeda Naqvi writes : "These are men who willingly lay down their lives ", I dont know a normal human being in full wits laying down his life for the Nation. You have to brain wash him or use some Drums or Rum to push him for martyrdom. A normal human being wants some life, some simple happiness, and no material or after death rewards can compensate him for his simple desire to live. And in Swat, Pakistan who are they going to kill, their own brothers. who else ... Arjuna of Mahabharata was right when he refused to fight against his own brothers Kauravas. But we all know , war is see is the only way out from the quagmire. But what about the scholar's ink, is it still more precious than the blood of a soldier, i say, yes, and that is only way to say no to killing , either for this or for that. i dont mind, if "intellectuals" are seen are "negative" or "brainless", they are always better than a man with a gun. yes, who is a patriot? I was watching a Hollywood movie which showed how ancient Egyptians stole young nomadic people to work as slaves to build pyramids. The same is true about every National Monument. To say the least, monumental blood has gone into the making of each and every monument, we happen to call National heritage. As a matter of human sensibility it is our duty to preserve and respect those monuments but with an upside down perspective. I have similar feelings about Taj Mahal, etc. So, we have millions of innocent men and women whose blood has gone into the making of modern and ancient Nation state, so do we need to shed blood to save these monuments ? A nationalist would argue here, that if there is a threat why not to use force to preserve that. No answer, but how this situation has emerged. Have, these blind nationalists often driven these men to frenzy and create violence. And who where they who manipulated youth to fight for their personal gains. I guess, Kings in the past and now our great icons of modern history. Qaid-e-Azam Jinnah is one such Hero, who talked about Unity, faith and Discipline. Unity of Mulims: what, a lip service to the millions of those who were were living in poorer conditions in pre-partition India. Faith: by any standards, he was never a good musalman, a bourgeois British who loved to outwit congress party/Nehru ( a bourgeois himself ) .... Discipline: what a bull shit word, Discipline is often expected from others. not for those who love cigars, well pressed suits and bungalows to live in. well, well, This is similar to Gandhi ji of India. Who wanted everybody to abstain her/his desire. What a ignorant understanding of Hindu Religion he had. Even Lord Rama would laugh at his understanding of love. he wanted to hide the great Khajuraho temples in cement or something since he thought them quite disgusting. How to see him different from Talibans who demolished Bamiyan Buddhas for almost similar reasons. But, both Indian and Pakistani currency notes should have their images,which a patriot automatically salutes. Ah There is a long list of items/subject which one can discuss on what is expected from a Patriot. One such is flag? and we all know how funny histories these flags have inside them, less interesting than a "butterfly" or me. So how does it matter if it is unfurled in a London home or in Assam or in Kashmir. The discourse on subjectivity is i guess always deeper than the what we know as Nation state etc, perhaps, it is even deeper than the scholar's ink, even with love inder salim On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 7:38 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > EXCERPTS: > > - What is so wrong with being a patriot? And why are we afraid to rally behind our armed forces, to send out positive, supportive signs as these men lay down their lives for us? > > - These are men who willingly lay down their lives, men who often return maimed or paralysed to their families. In other countries, such men would enjoy heroic statures. And yet, here in Pakistan, when they turn on their television sets at night, they see their nation scoffing at them. > > - Here in Pakistan today, we are too busy either being Taliban apologists or posing as intellectuals who feel it is our duty to run down everything in sight, without thinking of the national interest. > > - Our intellectuals will have to learn that it is possible to be analytical without being negative, to be patriotic without being brainless. > > > Kshmendra > > > > Tuesday, May 05, 2009 > > "Where is our yellow ribbon?" —Ayeda Naqvi > > Many years ago, as a student in New York, I was invited to my roommate’s house for the weekend. Her parents lived a couple of hours away from the city in a quiet little town where she had grown up. As for myself, I must admit, I was looking forward to leaving the concrete jungle of Manhattan behind for a few days. > > As we drove over the Willis Avenue Bridge towards the Taconic Parkway, leaving the grey high-rises behind, I saw more than just the landscape change. And I realised that Manhattan was an island in more ways than one. > > Besides being physically set apart from the land around it, it stood alone in its liberalism. The left-wing writers whom I loved, my professors who freely criticised their government, even the people rallying in front of the United Nations in protest of Bush Sr’s invasion of Iraq, had no place in small town America. This was a place where everyone was a “patriot”. > > As we drove through the cluster of little streets that led to her house, I noticed that all the houses in her neighbourhood had either an American flag or a giant yellow ribbon pasted on the front door. The flag, I understood — the country was at war. But the yellow ribbon? “It’s our way of saying we support our troops,” said my roommate. > > “But you said you didn’t feel that the invasion of Iraq was justified,” I said. > > “I don’t,” she replied. “But I still support our troops — our soldiers who are willing to die for us.” > > That weekend, I admit, I got into many a debate about the yellow ribbons. Not only were they on the houses, they were pinned onto people’s clothes! They irked me. If you didn’t agree with your government, how could you support your troops? They were, after all, carrying the government’s agenda. I returned to the city on Sunday night quite irritated, convinced that everyone in suburbia was brainwashed. > > It has been more than 17 years since that day. Much has happened in the world since then. But today, as Pakistan stands on the verge of anarchy, at war with an enemy that has seeped into the very fabric of our society, I long for an expression of unity. And I find myself thinking more and more of that yellow ribbon. > > What is so wrong with being a patriot? And why are we afraid to rally behind our armed forces, to send out positive, supportive signs as these men lay down their lives for us? > > Since 9/11, the Pakistani army has suffered more than any other army in the world in terms of casualties. And yet we get nothing but negative reports about its performance in the media. One can be angry with Zardari, think that Musharraf sold out and believe that the ISI is a “sinister” organisation with its own agenda without losing compassion for our soldiers, the young men who are being killed every day. > > These are men who willingly lay down their lives, men who often return maimed or paralysed to their families. In other countries, such men would enjoy heroic statures. And yet, here in Pakistan, when they turn on their television sets at night, they see their nation scoffing at them. > > So fond of flinging mud on all in sight, our media moguls seem to have lost sight of the larger picture. And so used to being cynical, we have stopped empathising with those willing to die for us. > > Seventeen years ago, I met a group of people in a small suburb of New York who were neither sophisticated nor educated. And yet they were able to recognise the shades of grey, the fact that it is possible to support your troops without blindly supporting your government. > > Here in Pakistan today, we are too busy either being Taliban apologists or posing as intellectuals who feel it is our duty to run down everything in sight, without thinking of the national interest. > > As we stand on the eve of a massive crackdown on the Taliban, we need to realise that in the weeks and months ahead, there will be blood — dead soldiers and dead civilians. And yet there has never been a greater time to stand behind our troops, to show solidarity as a nation if we want to defeat the single greatest threat to our way of life. > > Our intellectuals will have to learn that it is possible to be analytical without being negative, to be patriotic without being brainless. And our media moguls and talk show hosts will have to learn to stop catering to the lowest common denominator by sympathising with a group of murderers. > > When Jinnah created Pakistan, he envisioned us as a nation that adhered to the principles of “Unity”, “Faith” and “Discipline”. For me there can be no greater show of unity than for a nation to support its troops. Maybe a yellow ribbon is not the answer. But I, for one, am putting a Pakistani flag outside my house today to show my solidarity with my nation — the one created by Jinnah, not the Taliban. > > Ayeda Naqvi is a journalist who lives and works in Lahore. She can be contacted at ayedanaqvi at yahoo.com > > http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2009%5C05%5C05%5Cstory_5-5-2009_pg3_2 > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From yasir.media at gmail.com Wed May 6 22:03:31 2009 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?windows-1256?B?eWFzaXIgfu3HINPR?=) Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 21:33:31 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] siliguri In-Reply-To: <185492.47100.qm@web94702.mail.in2.yahoo.com> References: <5af37bb0905050335s28bfc38fh9f098de1d9d2a507@mail.gmail.com> <185492.47100.qm@web94702.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5af37bb0905060933h28add0eavb88db65ed4c64d7b@mail.gmail.com> ok. the title is : * Lathi Charge in Siliguri against Indian Gorkha Regiment by West Bengal Police* how can the police beat up the Indian Gorkha Regiment ??* *isn't it more common the other way round. you cant mess with the army?* * On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 3:23 PM, subhrodip sengupta wrote: > What else than the police seeking revenge, and using muscle power and human > right violation as tools to establish their supremacy! > > ------------------------------ > *From:* yasir ~يا سر > *To:* sarai list > *Sent:* Tuesday, 5 May, 2009 4:05:25 PM > *Subject:* [Reader-list] siliguri > > so what is going on here? i dont understand the title. best. > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvaCr1lPD6k > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > ------------------------------ > Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter now! > From drsojnu at gmail.com Wed May 6 23:32:48 2009 From: drsojnu at gmail.com (Dismayed Research Scholars of Jawaharlal Nehru University) Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 23:32:48 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Politics of Scholarship, Imperialist plot, and Consent of Administration and JNUSU Message-ID: <185ccd380905061102y5c9cc38cib525f3ba3a217d09@mail.gmail.com> Dear All This is an attempt to sensitise the representative of Jawaharlal Nehru Nehru University Students' Union. JNUSU has been known for its stand against imperialist onslaught , caste practices or gender discrimination issueHowever, the recent several incidents suggest something else. JNUSU is busy with the administration to send the scholars from JNU to USA and countries through organising the workshop and interactive session with the representatives of Fulbright Foundation and so on. in place of fighting against these sources of imperialism and funding and elitist interactive sessions wherein poor are blatantly discriminated, JNUSU and administration are busy to organise these sessions. the scholars, OBC reservation, seat cut in SC/ST seats , total bypassing of differently abled people, JNUSU has abdicated its responsibility and administration in absence of any struggle and demotivated and co-opted union , is not bother about the extension of facilities. *The Politics of Scholarship, Imperialist plot, and Consent of Administration and JNUSU** * The Research Scholars of Jawaharlal Nehru University evince their anguish and perturbed conditions over several issues prevailing in the campus. There are various actors responsible for the dismay of research scholars. The first and foremost player is the administration. The administration incessantly eulogises Jawaharlal Nehru University for being a world class university. Therefore, the administration has selected certain aspects of University which could be turned into as world class. They are: Garden, Benches, Colourful signboards, Digital notice boards, parking , massive denudation of rocks and forests like PSR , several barricades on link roads to make people visible on main roads not on link roads (bypassing the sensibility concerning differently* *abled students ) and so on. The physical* *transformation of JNU perhaps, according to our dear administration especially *economist* vice chancellor, would place it amongst word class institutions . However, the *transformative* ambition of administration is not visible in spheres of more hostels, increased scholarship, more relevant books suggested by teachers and students in the Library, facilities for differently abled students, water availability in place of the directive to the students to move for the home in the absence of water, internet facility in hostels , renovation of existing hostels especially infrastructure and publication opportunity for the research scholars. The administration has vouched for ominous licence vis-a-vis aforesaid issue which are intrinsically linked to the every day life of the research scholars. The administration conceives of these issues as moribund demands and not necessarily vital aspects in the schema of world class. Furthermore, non-implementation of OBC reservation, seat cut in SCs/STs seats and total marginalization of differently abled students are the *core* initiatives by the administration concerning march towards to the world class. Nevertheless, we are not surprised. This has been the nature and attitude of the structures led by the ruling class. For this purpose, students of this university has continuously reposed their belief in the struggle led by JNUSU. JNUSU has been pioneer not only confronting the administration but also ensuring the social sensitive and social justice aspect of the campus. The closer look into the functionality of incumbent JNUSU surprises the research scholars. The mandate to JNUSU directly by the student community and later on by subsequent GBMs is not only about legitimacy of JNUSU but extension of the struggle for the students by this body. The incumbent JNUSU promised us scholarship from 2005, increased scholarship, better library facility, more seats for OBCs, no interference in SCs/STs and differently abled seats, hostel for all and so on. The net outcome suggests bizarre outcomes. These issues have been buried by JNUSU and constant ominous silence is the direct answer to the research scholars who are not worried about the UPSC preparation and results and are entirely focussed on the research. JNU is perhaps the last bastion in the third world wherein independent research takes place and does influence from decision making process to the thousands macro and micro movements , struggling for the social change. No wonder, the fund banks and funding agencies have an eye on this University. The idea is very simple: if you cannot control the resistance movements simply control the places wherein the movements get sustenance and inputs. Our torch-bearers who are leading JNUSU could not comprehend this simple ploy. In place of fighting for improvements for the students through waging a struggle against administration, JNUSU and administration are in concert in the *transformative endeavour *of JNU into the world class institutions. JNUSU extended its support to the three days ‘*workshop’* for students how to get jobs in NGOs/Civil Society. The grotesque aspect of this workshop was the lecture by the representatives of the Fulbright Foundation. The Fulbright Scholar Program, established in 1946, has been administered since then by the *Council for International Exchange of Scholars* which is the scholar division of the *Institute of International Education*, the United States flagship academic exchange effort, as directed by the United States Department of State, Bureau of Educational and Cultural Affairs (ECA). The message is simple: abandon the issue of social change, do not have hope in JNU, migrate to the developed countries in search of a lucrative space. JNUSU’s brazen and culpable initiatives suggest a lot about the state of affairs of JNU. Due to JNUSU’s collaboration with imperialist stooges and the administration , the politics of JNU and its participants have to contemplate what went wrong and what should be done to remind JNUSU that in place of fighting imperialist stooges like Rhodes and Ford Foundations , who has authorised it to become a fellow traveller of these forces. More than JNUSU, the onus is on the student community to think about the future of JNU and its democratic agenda and how liberate it from exploiter in a scenario when our *representatives* are not being ashamed to extend their support to organise such elitist and imperialist ploy. -- Dismayed Research Scholars of Jawaharlal Nehru University, New Delihi: 110067 From yasir.media at gmail.com Thu May 7 00:37:37 2009 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?windows-1256?B?eWFzaXIgfu3HINPR?=) Date: Thu, 7 May 2009 00:07:37 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Pakistan's Border: Line of Fiction In-Reply-To: <772752.1241626988879.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <772752.1241626988879.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <5af37bb0905061207gd23011eja4ca82b0a2588d54@mail.gmail.com> Thats the Pakhtunkhwa (NWFP) border. There's also the Goldsmith line demarking Baluchistan/s its very screwed up nonsensical and what not :) On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 9:23 PM, Paul D. Miller wrote: > Pakistan's Border's were drawn by Britain - the guy who drew the line > barely bothered to do any research! Hilarious. I guess it's just one of > those bizaare situations from the 20th century that just won't go away. > Hundreds of thousands of people died in the ethnic cleansing that followed > the imposition of the new border Sir Cyril drew between India and Pakistan - > what will happen with the border between Afghanistan and Pakistan, yet > another Western fiction? > Paul > > > > Pakistan’s British-Drawn Borders > > > http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/05/05/pakistans-british-drawn-borders/ > Robert Mackey > > > In their fascinating account of a series of interviews with a Taliban > tactician in Tuesday’s New York Times, Jane Perlez and Pir Zubair Shah point > to “one distinct Taliban advantage: the border between Afghanistan and > Pakistan barely exists for the Taliban.” > > In previous posts on The Lede, we’ve mentioned that Pakistan and the rest > of the world believes that Afghanistan ends (and Pakistan begins) more or > less where a 1,600-mile line was drawn on the world map in 1893, at the > direction of a British colonial officer named Henry Mortimer Durand, who > sought to define the outer edge of what was then British India. At the time, > the Afghans grudgingly accepted this map, despite the fact that what became > known as the Durand Line cut right through Pashtun tribal areas and even > villages that they considered part of Afghanistan. > > Sir Henry, whose portrait can be seen in Britain’s National Portrait > Gallery in London, drew his line with the memory of Britain’s two failed > wars against the Afghans fresh in his mind. Not long before, in 1879, during > what the British call the Second Anglo-Afghan War, Sir Henry had completed > and published an account of “The First Afghan War and Its Causes” begun by > his father, Sir Henry Marion Durand. As Sir Henry noted in his introduction > to the book (which has been scanned and posted online in its entirety by > Google), his father, who died before he could complete the history, “had > some special qualifications for the task,” having participated in that > first, disastrous attempt to subdue Afghanistan, four decades earlier. > > So, as the entry on Pakistan in the Encarta encyclopedia explains, > splitting the Pashtun tribes was in some sense the whole point of what is > still known today as the Durand Line: > > As the British sought to expand their empire into the northwest > frontier, they clashed with the Pashtun tribes that held lands extending > from the western boundary of the Punjab plains into the kingdom of > Afghanistan. The Pashtuns strongly resisted British invasions into their > territories. After suffering many casualties, the British finally admitted > they could not conquer the Pashtuns. In 1893 Sir Mortimer Durand, the > foreign secretary of the colonial government of India, negotiated an > agreement with the king of Afghanistan, Amir Abdur Rahman Khan, to delineate > a border. The so-called Durand Line cut through Pashtun territories, > dividing them between British and Afghan areas of influence. However, the > Pashtuns refused to be subjugated under British colonial rule. The British > compromised by creating a new province in 1901, named the North-West > Frontier Province, as a loosely administered territory where the Pashtuns > would not be subject to colonial laws. > > In November, 2001, as the United States confronted the Taliban in the > aftermath of the attacks on the World Trade Cener and the Pentagon, Vartan > Gregorian explained on The Times’s Op-Ed page how the arbitrary line the > British colonial administration in India drew through “Pashtunistan” in the > 19th century, which still forms much of the modern border, created problems > that have still not been resolved in this volatile border region. > > As the scholar Barnett Rubin noted in an article in Foreign Affairs in > 2007, when the British left India in 1947 and the northwest part of the > territory was carved into the new state of Pakistan, the Afghans stopped > recognizing the Durand Line as a border: > > Afghanistan claimed that Pakistan was a new state, not a successor to > British India, and that all past border treaties had lapsed. A loya jirga in > Kabul denied that the Durand Line was an international border and called for > self-determination of the tribal territories as Pashtunistan. Skirmishes > across the Durand Line began with the covert support of both governments. > > While the two governments today are not actually fighting a war over the > location of the border, the fact that the Durand Line runs right through the > traditional Pashtun lands means that Taliban fighters from Afghanistan blend > easily into the local population on the Pakistani side of the frontier. > Suggestions from Pakistan to stop illegal border crossings by either putting > down land mines or erecting a fence have been rejected by Afghanistan’s > President, Hamid Karzai, who is himself Pashtun. > > In January, Pierre Sprey, a former Pentagon official, told Bill Moyers in a > discussion of American strategy for fighting militants along the > Afghan-Pakistan border, calling the Pashtuns who live along both sides of > the Durand Line “a tribe,” can be misleading. In an interview, Mr. Sprey > said: > > It’s not a tribe. It’s a nation. This is 40 million people spread across > Afghanistan and Pakistan, you know, who don’t even recognize that border. > It’s their land. … There’s 40 million of them. That’s a nation, not a tribe. > Within it are tribal groupings and so on. But they all speak the common > language. And they all have a very similar, very rigid, in lots of ways very > admirable code of honor much stronger than their adherence to Islam. > > Pakistan’s other borders were created in 1947 by another British colonial > officer, Sir Cyril Radcliffe, who was made chairman of the boundary > commission and given six weeks to carve a Muslim-majority state from British > India. As the historian Karl Meyer wrote in his book “The Dust of Empire,” > Sir Cyril “was a curious choice,” since he had never previously visited > India. In a chapter called “Pakistan: Sins of Partition,” Mr. Meyer > explained: > > As Radcliffe’s former private secretary, Christopher Beaumont, later > remarked in an interview, the chairman had never traveled east and “was a > bit flummoxed by the whole thing. It was a rather impossible assignment, > really. To partition that subcontinent in six weeks was absurd.” > > Hundreds of thousands of people died in the ethnic cleansing that followed > the imposition of the new border Sir Cyril drew between India and Pakistan. > W.H. Auden made the absurdity of the way the border was created the subject > of the poem “Partition,” published in 1966: > > Unbiased at least he was when he arrived on his mission, > Having never set eyes on the land he was called to partition > Between two peoples fanatically at odds, > With their different diets and incompatible gods. > “Time,” they had briefed him in London, “is short. It’s too late > For mutual reconciliation or rational debate: > The only solution now lies in separation. > The Viceroy thinks, as you will see from his letter, > That the less you are seen in his company the better, > So we’ve arranged to provide you with other accommodation. > We can give you four judges, two Moslem and two Hindu, > To consult with, but the final decision must rest with you.” > > Shut up in a lonely mansion, with police night and day > Patrolling the gardens to keep the assassins away, > He got down to work, to the task of settling the fate > Of millions. The maps at his disposal were out of date > And the Census Returns almost certainly incorrect, > But there was no time to check them, no time to inspect > Contested areas. The weather was frightfully hot, > And a bout of dysentery kept him constantly on the trot, > But in seven weeks it was done, the frontiers decided, > A continent for better or worse divided. > > The next day he sailed for England, where he could quickly forget > The case, as a good lawyer must. Return he would not, > Afraid, as he told his Club, that he might get shot. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From shuddha at sarai.net Thu May 7 04:31:49 2009 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Thu, 7 May 2009 04:31:49 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Politics of Scholarship, Imperialist plot, and Consent of Administration and JNUSU In-Reply-To: <185ccd380905061102y5c9cc38cib525f3ba3a217d09@mail.gmail.com> References: <185ccd380905061102y5c9cc38cib525f3ba3a217d09@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear all, I would like to thank the 'Dismayed Research Scholars of JNU' for this post., which I fine very revealing. How is it that a premier university like JNU can get on in life without a serious publishing house, how is it that it does not pay attention to the day to day needs of students and research scholars, and how is it that so many factions of student political organizations in JNU (of the right, left and far left) can cry themselves hoarse on issues as diverse as Hindutva and Venezuela, and still not have the time to pay attention to the fact that the JNU does not have its own publishing imprint. Should we take this form of education, this form of university administration, and this brand of student politics at all seriously? curious Shuddha. However, the *transformative* ambition of administration is not visible in spheres of more hostels, increased scholarship, more relevant books suggested by teachers and students in the Library, facilities for differently abled students, water availability in place of the directive to the students to move for the home in the absence of water, internet facility in hostels , renovation of existing hostels especially infrastructure and publication opportunity for the research scholars. On 06-May-09, at 11:32 PM, Dismayed Research Scholars of Jawaharlal Nehru University wrote: > Dear All > > This is an attempt to sensitise the representative of Jawaharlal > Nehru Nehru > University Students' Union. JNUSU has been known for its stand > against imperialist onslaught , caste practices or gender > discrimination > issueHowever, the recent several incidents suggest something else. > JNUSU is > busy with the administration to send the scholars from JNU to USA > and countries through organising the workshop and interactive > session with > the representatives of Fulbright Foundation and so on. > > in place of fighting against these sources of imperialism and > funding and > elitist interactive sessions wherein poor are blatantly > discriminated, JNUSU > and administration are busy to organise these sessions. the > scholars, OBC > reservation, seat cut in SC/ST seats , total bypassing of > differently abled > people, JNUSU has abdicated its responsibility and administration > in absence > of any struggle and demotivated and co-opted union , is not bother > about the > extension of facilities. > > > *The Politics of Scholarship, Imperialist plot, and Consent of > Administration and JNUSU** * > > The Research Scholars of Jawaharlal Nehru University evince their > anguish > and perturbed conditions over several issues prevailing in the > campus. There > are various actors responsible for the dismay of research scholars. > The > first and foremost player is the administration. The administration > incessantly eulogises Jawaharlal Nehru University for being a world > class > university. Therefore, the administration has selected certain > aspects of > University which could be turned into as world class. They are: > Garden, > Benches, Colourful signboards, Digital notice boards, parking , > massive > denudation of rocks and forests like PSR , several barricades on > link roads > to make people visible on main roads not on link roads (bypassing the > sensibility concerning differently* *abled students ) and so on. The > physical* *transformation of JNU perhaps, according to our dear > administration especially *economist* vice chancellor, would place it > amongst word class institutions . However, the *transformative* > ambition of > administration is not visible in spheres of more hostels, increased > scholarship, more relevant books suggested by teachers and students > in the > Library, facilities for differently abled students, water > availability in > place of the directive to the students to move for the home in the > absence > of water, internet facility in hostels , renovation of existing > hostels > especially infrastructure and publication opportunity for the research > scholars. The administration has vouched for ominous licence vis-a-vis > aforesaid issue which are intrinsically linked to the every day > life of the > research scholars. > > The administration conceives of these issues as moribund demands > and not > necessarily vital aspects in the schema of world class. Furthermore, > non-implementation of OBC reservation, seat cut in SCs/STs seats > and total > marginalization of differently abled students are the *core* > initiatives by > the administration concerning march towards to the world class. > Nevertheless, we are not surprised. This has been the nature and > attitude of > the structures led by the ruling class. For this purpose, students > of this > university has continuously reposed their belief in the struggle > led by > JNUSU. JNUSU has been pioneer not only confronting the > administration but > also ensuring the social sensitive and social justice aspect of the > campus. > > > The closer look into the functionality of incumbent JNUSU surprises > the > research scholars. The mandate to JNUSU directly by the student > community > and later on by subsequent GBMs is not only about legitimacy of > JNUSU but > extension of the struggle for the students by this body. The > incumbent JNUSU > promised us scholarship from 2005, increased scholarship, better > library > facility, more seats for OBCs, no interference in SCs/STs and > differently > abled seats, hostel for all and so on. The net outcome suggests > bizarre > outcomes. These issues have been buried by JNUSU and constant ominous > silence is the direct answer to the research scholars who are not > worried > about the UPSC preparation and results and are entirely focussed on > the > research. JNU is perhaps the last bastion in the third world wherein > independent research takes place and does influence from decision > making > process to the thousands macro and micro movements , struggling for > the > social change. No wonder, the fund banks and funding agencies have > an eye on > this University. The idea is very simple: if you cannot control the > resistance movements simply control the places wherein the > movements get > sustenance and inputs. > > Our torch-bearers who are leading JNUSU could not comprehend this > simple > ploy. In place of fighting for improvements for the students > through waging > a struggle against administration, JNUSU and administration are in > concert > in the *transformative endeavour *of JNU into the world class > institutions. > JNUSU extended its support to the three days ‘*workshop’* for > students how > to get jobs in NGOs/Civil Society. The grotesque aspect of this > workshop was > the lecture by the representatives of the Fulbright Foundation. The > Fulbright Scholar Program, established in 1946, has been > administered since > then by the *Council for International Exchange of Scholars* which > is the > scholar division of the *Institute of International Education*, the > United > States flagship academic exchange effort, as directed by the United > States > Department of State, Bureau of Educational and Cultural > Affairs > (ECA). > > The message is simple: abandon the issue of social change, do not > have hope > in JNU, migrate to the developed countries in search of a lucrative > space. > JNUSU’s brazen and culpable initiatives suggest a lot about the > state of > affairs of JNU. Due to JNUSU’s collaboration with imperialist > stooges and > the administration , the politics of JNU and its participants have to > contemplate what went wrong and what should be done to remind JNUSU > that in > place of fighting imperialist stooges like Rhodes and Ford > Foundations , who > has authorised it to become a fellow traveller of these forces. > More than > JNUSU, the onus is on the student community to think about the > future of > JNU and its democratic agenda and how liberate it from exploiter in a > scenario when our *representatives* are not being ashamed to extend > their > support to organise such elitist and imperialist ploy. > -- > Dismayed Research Scholars of Jawaharlal Nehru University, New Delihi: > 110067 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From pawan.durani at gmail.com Thu May 7 09:25:30 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Thu, 7 May 2009 09:25:30 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] This clan helped preserve Indian literature Message-ID: <6b79f1a70905062055y63ed827dgacdb966bed1121b0@mail.gmail.com> *This clan helped preserve Indian literature*** *S. D. Sharma* A thorough study of literature reveals that *Bhat *is the Sanskritised form of *Bhatta * - a respectful term for a Brahaman and probably connect­ed with *Bharti *i.e., bearer or master. H.A. Rose (1883) opines that the Punjabi form of the word is Bhatt, but is commonly pronounced as Bhat in hilly areas and foothills. Bhat Brahamans comprise various *gotras *like Bhardwaj, Gautam, Kalia, Kapil, Lomas, Paulastya, Prashar, Agnihotri and Vashist. Various legends are recounted to explain their origin. According to one school of thought the Bhat Brahamans originated from Pushkarna and Saraswat Brahamans. The second school says that when Janmeja celebrated a sacrifice he summoned Gaur Brahmans and tricked one of them into accepting an offering of a diamond by concealing it in a beetle leaf. Another legend is that Lord Shiva was celebrating the marriage of his son, when a drop of sweat falling from his brows to the ground, led to the incarnation of the first Bhat Brahaman. Still another legend is that Brahama offered gifts to Brahamans, but they all refused it, until one of their sister’s son accepted it and he became a Bhat Brahaman. Rose further states that marriage and birthday ceremonies throughout the country were performed by the celebrated scholars of this clan for amounts ranging from one taka to Re 1 around 1883. *Mahabharta *speaks of a band of Bhat Brahamans and eulogists marching in front of Yudhistra as he made his way from the field of Kurukshetra towards Hastinapur. According to Ibbetson (1881) Bhat Brahamans in the Punjab are genealogists. Sherring (1879) says that Bhat Brahamans cultivated the art of making up poetry on the spur of the moment at marriage festivals and other such occasions. Elliot (1877) and Saltor (1981) averred that Bhat is a title of honour given to a learned Brahaman. They are also called Bandinah, Nandiputrah and Vaitalikah. The profession of the Bhat Brahamans has an interesting story behind it. The ancient literature of both Greece and India owes its preservation to the singers who recited poems in the households of chiefs and doubtlessly contributed, in some measures, to shape the masterpieces which they handed down. Their place was one of distinction. In the days when writing was unknown, the man who could remember many verses was held in high esteem by the chief who depended upon the memory of the Bhat Brahamans for the record of his ancestors and for the maintenance of the genealogy which established the purity of his descent. Banabhat was a celebrated Sanskrit scholar and poet who lived in the 7th century. Kumarilla Bhat, a noted scholar and writer who lived in the 8th century, composed *Umasvastis *and *Gandhahasti Mahabhasya *and *Nanniah, **Errapragada *and *Tikkanna, *the great trio or *Kavi Traya *of Telugu literature. The *Dutangada *of Subhat exhibits shadowplays of Mahanataka. Bhavadevabhat of the Savarna* **gotra *of the* kauthuma *school of *Samaveda**, *born in Siddhalagrama in Radha (Bengal) was the son of Govardhana and Samgoka and flourished in about 1100. He was a versatile genius and composed *Dharamsastra. *Vijnanessvara of Bhardwaj *gotra *was the son of Padmanabha Bhat Brahaman and pupil of Uttma. He wrote M*itakshara *when King Vikrmarke (Vikrmadiyta) was ruling Kalayana. Mahima Bhat, Bhaskarbhat and Chintamanibhat were other renowned and celebrated scholars of their times. King Nagbhat ruled on Buchkal (Rajasthan) in 815; King Dhruvbhat on Mount Abu in 1002; King Bhadarbhat on Gajaband (Malwa) in the 11th century and King Shiv Nabh on Sangladeep from 1509-1521. Bhat Brahamans probably belonged to Sangladeep. RC Temple (1962) identifies Sangladeep with Sankladeep or Srinkhladeep in the undivided Punjab, somewhere near Sialkot. This is the place where Guru Gorakhnath asked Puran Bhagat to go and get alms from the young and beautiful Queen Sundran sometime in 7th century (Rose, 1970). Mrigind (1977) says Sangladeep is an island in Sri Lanka. PP Sinha (1980) while writing on the life and times of Tansen (originally Tnna Nisra) for his Ph.D degree established that he was a Bhat Brahaman. Kedar, Nal, Gaddadhar, Shribhat, Kumarmani, Baisal, Padhkar, Dialdas Lachhiram, Haridas, Gang and Narhari had been some poets of eminence belonging to this clan. Royal poet Chand Bardai and Birbal were the Chief Ministers of King Prithviraj Chauhan and Akbar the Great, respectively, and were Bhat Brahamans.Guru Das Vashisht of Tibber (Gurdaspur) sacrificed his life in 1919 in the Jallianwala Bagh massacre, while Chhotelal in 1912, Janardan Bakhatram in 1918, Ram Kali in 1918, Ram Krishan in 1930 and Shamrao in 1942, all Maharashtrian Bhat Bra­hamans, laid their lives for the freedom of India . * - (Source: The Tribune)* __._,_.___ From akmalik45 at yahoo.com Thu May 7 09:28:03 2009 From: akmalik45 at yahoo.com (A.K. Malik) Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 20:58:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims Message-ID: <967899.29569.qm@web39101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 5/7/09, A.K. Malik wrote: > From: A.K. Malik > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims > To: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com > Cc: readers-list at sarai.net > Date: Thursday, May 7, 2009, 9:21 AM > > > > > --- On Thu, 5/7/09, A.K. Malik > wrote: > > > From: A.K. Malik > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian > Muslims > > To: "chanchal malviya" > > Date: Thursday, May 7, 2009, 9:15 AM > > > > I  tend to agree with Chanchal. During the partition > > Gandhiji forced Hindus in Hindu dominated mohallas to > stop > > killing Muslims but no one ever dared to stop Muslims > in > > Muslim dominated mohallas to stop killings of Hindus. > The > > scars remain. > > Even today everyone talks about Modi not stopping > Godhra > > killins but no one dares talk about killing of > innocent > > travellers in train at Godhra. > > If you crticise Hindus for any action, you become > secular. > > I have yet to find a single Muslim who crticised the > UP > > Minister who offered 51 crores or so for killing... > > We are a broad-minded society so we accept atrocites > on us > > being inflicted by any one to make us secular. > > > > > > --- On Wed, 5/6/09, chanchal malviya > > wrote: > > > > > From: chanchal malviya > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of > Indian > > Muslims > > > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com, > > "M Javed" > > > Cc: "sarai list" > > > Date: Wednesday, May 6, 2009, 2:29 PM > > > I am not copying the mail to you... > > > It is through the network it is reaching you.. > and I > > am not > > > the modifier...  > > > > > > And please... If you do not have the gut to > accept > > the > > > Truth.. do not use words like Idiotic... > > > > > > I know who is fracturing India... You will know > only > > when > > > sword will reach your throat... however, it will > > hardly > > > matter.. you have already changed your father > > > (Dharma)...  > > > > > > Why don't you give a fair trial of Gandhiji.... > > Gandhiji > > > used to read Quran in Temples... But he never > > committed the > > > mistake of reading Gita in Masjids... why don't > you > > complete > > > the work of Gandhiji and prove that I am > dividing... > > and > > > that division don't pre-exist.... > > > Please do it once and then talk to me... and do > not > > talk to > > > me what you never did...    > > > Go and live in Kashmir or area where Hindus are > not > > more > > > than 10%.. and then talk to me....  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Kshmendra Kaul > > > To: M Javed ; > > > chanchal malviya > > > Cc: sarai list > > > Sent: Wednesday, May 6, 2009 1:21:31 PM > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of > Indian > > > Muslims > > > > > > > > > Dear Chanchal > > >  > > > If you think you are a good Indian or a good > Hindu you > > are > > > totally mistaken. You are a disgrace to both. > > >  > > > People like you are nothing but enemies of India > who > > by > > > word and action do nothing but bring about > divides in > > India > > > and fracture it. > > >  > > > Please do not copy any of your idiotic mails to > me. > > >  > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > --- On Wed, 5/6/09, chanchal malviya > > > wrote: > > > > > > From: chanchal malviya > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of > Indian > > > Muslims > > > To: "M Javed" , > > > kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > > > Cc: "sarai list" > > > Date: Wednesday, May 6, 2009, 9:31 AM > > > > > > > > >  > > > Indian Muslims are those whose forefathers > betrayed > > with > > > their own base foundation Hinduism - either out > of > > fear or > > > lust. > > > Indian Muslims are those who historically didn't > play > > a > > > major role in Indian Independence, and rather > took > > lead in > > > Khilafat with Gandhi (the apostole of peace) to > > massacre > > > over 10,000 Hindus in the name of God... > > > Indian Muslims are those who established a thick > line > > in > > > 1947 that they cannot live with Hindus who > > unfortunately > > > happens to be their own ancestral brothers... > > > India Muslims now have loosed their credibility > of > > being a > > > part of Nationalist attitude by publicly denying > to > > accept > > > National Anthem, National Song and denying Bharat > as > > > maata... when these things should have nothing to > take > > with > > > Hindus... but now slogans like 'Bharat maata ki > Jai', > > 'Jana > > > gana mana', 'vande maatram'... are all part of > only > > Hindu > > > culture... > > > Indian Muslims are now a partners of Terrorism, > and by > > and > > > large declared Terrorism... most of their > leaders > > shout > > > publicly that every Muslim should be a terrorist > with > > some > > > logical background that terrorism should be for > > > non-believers often purified through management > > language... > > > > > > Indian Muslims or any Muslim in this world > (barring > > > exceptions - 1 to 2 % of the population), has to > > > re-establish their credibility that they are > humans > > and > > > worshipers of humanity first before unknown, > unseen > > God who > > > according to them hates, prepares fire of hell, > > prepared > > > heaven with houris and virgins, asks people to > > > murder...    > > > > > > WHO WILL SOLVE THIS IGNORANCE OF HATRED IN THE > NAME OF > > GOD > > > - ONLY HINDUS... That is the reason Muslims have > > existed > > > from over thousand years in India, and Hindus > and > > others > > > have been eliminated from Islamic lands... > > > Historically proven, demography of today proves > > this... > > > > > > One should not enforce their own intolerance > upon > > Hindus in > > > the name of Babri and Gujarat Riots... They must > go > > back > > > into 1000 years of History which created Babri.. > > Kashmir.. > > > and Godhra...  One must talk of CAUSE and not > EFFECT > > > alone... The Effect on Hindus are much deeper > than > > anything > > > else in this world... > > > > > > The well integrated four Varnas - popularly known > as > > Aryas > > > - were divided and remains divided because of > Invasion > > and > > > Western Politics still ruling this nation... > > > The ever free women of India were put under > 'Ghunghat' > > for > > > ever to hide their face from the Islamic > looters... > > Brahmins > > > had to impose child marriage among Hindus > because > > their > > > girls were picked away at an early age in the > name of > > > 'Virgin' given by God to Islamic rapers... > British > > took > > > advantage of this and teached the whole > population > > that > > > these are the raw culture of Hinduism... > > > > > > Unfortunate, the same Best Scientists, > Philosophers, > > > Pschologists and all failed to defeat Swami > > Vivekananda who > > > put Hinduism on top of everything on their > land... > > Read him, > > > read Hinduism from its scripture (and not from > the > > mouth of > > > Dr. Zakir Naik)... and you will know that WORLD > LIVES > > > BECAUSE HINDUISM IS ALIVE EVEN IN ISLAM AND > > > CHRISTIANITY...  > > > > > > A person respecting his parents is Hinduism, A > person > > > loyarl to his Religous Guru is Hinduism, A > person > > dedicated > > > to his job is Hinduism, A person marrying and > leading > > a > > > stable family is Hinduism... A person getting > > spiritual in > > > line with God is Hinduism... > > > You may change the books, induce impurity in the > name > > of > > > God in those books... but the truth will ever > > remain... The > > > world exists because of Hinduism and the world > will > > exist > > > only as long as Hinduism is alive - directly or > > > indirectly.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > >  From: M Javed > > > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > > > Cc: sarai list > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 5, 2009 5:38:01 PM > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of > Indian > > > Muslims > > > > > > Dear Kshmendra > > > > > > Who is an Indian Muslim? > > > > > > We need to answer this before we can answer your > > "...should > > > they be > > > thinking about using the Islamic flag..." > > > > > > Javed > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 5:19 PM, Kshmendra Kaul > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > QUOTE: > > > > > > > > It also carried drawings of two white and > black > > flags, > > > the former being the main flag of Holy Prophet > > Muhammad > > > (Peace be Upon Him) and the latter his military > > standard. > > > Even now, black-turbaned TNSM members carry the > small > > white > > > and black flags as they walk ahead of Sufi > Mohammad. > > ...... > > > UNQUOTE > > > > > > > > This quote is from an article on Maulana > Sufi > > Mohammad > > > written by Rahimullah Yusufzai. > > > > http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=175825 > > > > > > > > No green flag. No crescent and star on it. > > > > > > > > The green flag with the crescent and star on > it > > which > > > is used by Indian Muslims has often caused > > > misunderstandings. > > > > > > > > One recent example has been Simi Garewal > talking > > about > > > Pakistani Flags being flown by Indian Muslims. > She > > > apologised later for having mistaken the Islamic > Flag > > of the > > > Indian Muslims for the Pakistani Flag. > > > > > > > > The close resemblance between the 2 flags > > confused > > > even Anupam Chakravartty, who inspite of video > > coverage from > > > Times Now showing it to be a Pakistani Flag, > insisted > > that > > > what was flown in Assam with " sickle (sic) and > star > > on > > > green background  is an islamic symbol" > > > > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2009-April/018755.html > > > > > > > > In an earlier mail I had commented: > > > > > > > > """""" If this is factual, then the > question > > arises > > > for the Indian Muslims that should they be > thinking > > about > > > using the Islamic Flag without the Crescent and > Star > > so that > > > it does not appear to be close to being the flag > of > > > Pakistan? """""" > > > > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2008-December/017016.html > > > > > > > > Just thinking aloud > > > > > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on > media and > > the > > > city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > with subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the > > > city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > with subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > >       > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the > > > city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > with subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > From pawan.durani at gmail.com Thu May 7 09:32:15 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Thu, 7 May 2009 09:32:15 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Zuv Chum BramAan Ghara Gatshaha - By Pt. Rakesh Kaul Message-ID: <6b79f1a70905062102y43c839d3jceb4b34185149743@mail.gmail.com> Dear All, Namaskaar !!! It is my pleasure to introduce you to a touching rendition of "Zuv Chum BramAan Ghara Gatshaha" in fusion with classic patriotic song "Ae Meray Pyaray Watan" by Rakesh Kaul Jr. Please click here: http://www.kashmiri-pandit.org/main.php?m=M&sm=M Rakesh Kaul Jr. is originally from Mandir Bagh, Srinagar, Kashmir and is currenty living in-exile in New Jersey, USA. I request you all to please listen to this soulful rendition complete to the end. I guarantee that it will touch your heart and make you cry. *" Zuv Chum BramAan Ghara Gatshaha " in Kashmiri roughly means "My heart urges and longs for my Motherland" ......in this case he is refering to Kashmir.* ** *Regards* ** *Pawan Durani* __._,_.___ ************************************************** Disclaimer: Views and opinions expressed herein are solely those of the persons posting the mail and not of the Owner/Moderator of this YahooGroup. Members of this group continue to remain members of this group of their own will. 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Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe __,_._,___ From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Thu May 7 09:40:22 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Thu, 7 May 2009 09:40:22 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: "Socialism's Come Back"- (fwded) In-Reply-To: <1f9180970905062040k6a4e6c1aic9d95bc970e6491c@mail.gmail.com> References: <1f9180970905062040k6a4e6c1aic9d95bc970e6491c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1f9180970905062110o8397c1fp4fb85269d20f977e@mail.gmail.com> "..Marx's closest collaborator, Frederick Engels, argued back in the 1890s that state ownership isn't equivalent to socialism. After the conservative German leader Otto von Bismarck "went in for state ownership of industrial establishments, a kind of spurious Socialism has arisen," Engels complained, "degenerating, now and again, into something of flunkyism, that without more ado declares all state ownership, even of the Bismarckian sort, to be socialistic." Marx, Engels and the revolutionary socialists who followed them also argued that socialism can't be achieved by voting a socialist party into office. The workers themselves must take the lead in transforming society by exerting their power in the workplace and taking control of production. That's why socialists can't be satisfied with a critique of capitalism. They have to organize and fight for an alternative, by rooting socialist organization in working-class struggles against the ravages of capitalism. Eugene Debs, the great American socialist who got nearly a million votes for president in 1912, made this point. "I would not lead you into the promised land if I could," he said, "because if I led you in, some one else would lead you out. You must use your heads as well as your hands, and get yourself out of your present condition." http://socialistworker.org/2009/05/06/socialisms-comeback -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From akmalik45 at yahoo.com Thu May 7 09:40:44 2009 From: akmalik45 at yahoo.com (A.K. Malik) Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 21:10:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims Message-ID: <342853.15310.qm@web39107.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Jeebesh, This job of attacking Hindus is already being done by so called Secular Hindus so there is no need for any Muslim to spoil his head for it. --- On Tue, 5/5/09, Jeebesh wrote: > From: Jeebesh > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims > To: "Sarai Reader-list" > Date: Tuesday, May 5, 2009, 9:59 PM > dear All, > > I do not understand how constantly the list members keep > attacking the  > same entity called muslims and indian muslims. Well all > attackers call  > themselves hindus. The viscousness of the attacks baffles > me. If they  > had power and weapons they can do serious damage. > > On the other hand, i have not seen any person with so > called "muslim  > name" attack a Hindu or Hinduism, on this list.  So > why does so called  > Hindus keep attacking muslims in this list. What kind of > blood lust is  > this? > > Now days Hinduism is a fairly celebrated religion and > thousands of  > publications and places of worship is a sure sign of that. > Yet a weird  > sense of injured self seem to have justified all kind of > rabble rousing. > > Being cautious of authoritarian organization is one thing, > but to keep  > on attacking a group of people is appalling. > > warmly > jeebesh > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From gowharfazili at yahoo.com Thu May 7 10:26:29 2009 From: gowharfazili at yahoo.com (gowhar fazli) Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 21:56:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] street theatre Message-ID: <607100.84792.qm@web65710.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Worth a watch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmk-xq76aCs What makes this video interesting is its subversion of 'culture' and appropriateness by bringing performance to the level of everyday and ordinary. What is remarkable in this video is the readiness with which the passers-by accept the command of the military man without anger or protest... Military man's absurd indulgence in all this for 'fun'... and resistance offered passively through over enthusiastic participation and yet partial compliance to the commands. From c.anupam at gmail.com Thu May 7 10:38:27 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Thu, 7 May 2009 10:38:27 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims In-Reply-To: <342853.15310.qm@web39107.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <342853.15310.qm@web39107.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <341380d00905062208l201ffe5bp15bc137807f04bfc@mail.gmail.com> i would like to correct you mr malik. the attack is targetted against hindus who have sold off their religion to gain power. On 5/7/09, A.K. Malik wrote: > > > Jeebesh, > This job of attacking Hindus is already being done by so called Secular > Hindus so there is no need for any Muslim to spoil his head for it. > > --- On Tue, 5/5/09, Jeebesh wrote: > > > From: Jeebesh > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims > > To: "Sarai Reader-list" > > Date: Tuesday, May 5, 2009, 9:59 PM > > dear All, > > > > I do not understand how constantly the list members keep > > attacking the > > same entity called muslims and indian muslims. Well all > > attackers call > > themselves hindus. The viscousness of the attacks baffles > > me. If they > > had power and weapons they can do serious damage. > > > > On the other hand, i have not seen any person with so > > called "muslim > > name" attack a Hindu or Hinduism, on this list. So > > why does so called > > Hindus keep attacking muslims in this list. What kind of > > blood lust is > > this? > > > > Now days Hinduism is a fairly celebrated religion and > > thousands of > > publications and places of worship is a sure sign of that. > > Yet a weird > > sense of injured self seem to have justified all kind of > > rabble rousing. > > > > Being cautious of authoritarian organization is one thing, > > but to keep > > on attacking a group of people is appalling. > > > > warmly > > jeebesh > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > > city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com Thu May 7 12:17:47 2009 From: rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com (Rajen Uppinangadi) Date: Thu, 7 May 2009 12:17:47 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] would you do this favour for the Delhi state also.? In-Reply-To: References: <61164a90905060352s19a756b2q5c51de43e18e1f93@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <61164a90905062347w133d0372n1ae65661fd1b14e9@mail.gmail.com> Dear Rakesh, so one more stone for Modi....! The truth of the matter is the report that you have put is all about the procedural matter of utilising or under-utilising of funds by the state, and common sense and little background knowledge will keep this clarity, budget of the union government takes place in the last day of Feb, and the states gets funds for the plan expenditure only by July of that year, after submission of lots of paper work, and further to utilise the funds from Centre, the process of tender, and utilisation in specified , approved project are further redtapes undoing the good use of funds for any state, CAG does not go into reasons, but only points out the use and unused funds, so every state has issues of this malady. Further with frequent elections of the panchayath, state elections, loksabha elections, half the times of an year is the states are under model code of conducts, not able to take up any development work.! Request you to keep these facts also in mind while assessing the works of all the states. Regards, Rajen. On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 9:30 PM, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > Dear Rajen jee > > I knew that once the truth about Modi is out in the open, people will say > 'so what? Are other chief ministers too good and Modi is too bad?' That is > not the point though I was making by putting up that mail. > > What I wish to state is that Modi has unnecessarily propped up an image of > his through which people are mistaken. People say he is not corrupt, but in > his very government, there are ministers who have been involved in > embezzling funds of cooperative banks. If supporting such ministers is not > corruption, what is corruption then? He and his party accused Manmohan Singh > of protecting Shibu Soren who was absconding while he was a minister. But > when Maya ben Kodnani was also absconding, he didn't remove her from the > ministry. Then how is he different from Manmohan? > > He couldn't prevent Godhra, neither could he prevent the violence which > occurred after it. He and his govt. portrayed Godhra first as an ISI action. > If one ISI action can spark so huge a violence, imagine if Narendra Modi > were to be the PM of India. One terrorist attack is all it would take to > ensure a genocide throughout India, destroying its secular fabric forever. > Is that what we want? > > Narendra Modi had said during campaigning in 2002 Gujarat assembly > elections, that if the Congress won, Pakistan would celebrate and if the BJP > won India would celebrate. I don't know the link between Congress and > Pakistan, but ironically BJP's victory must have made the ISI very happy at > the fact that one action only attributed to them (not even proved) was > enough to create a riot; when they really attack India, it will be enough to > finish India internally without a single shot fired by the Pakistani army. > > And in this mail, I have talked the language of nationalists. So now > decide, when the BJP wins, who celebrates: India, or the anti-India elements > in Pakistan? > > As for Sheila Dikshit, Rajen jee, don;t worry, first I will put some more > facts of Modi and his govt. and then I will take Sheila jee's truth out in > the open. Hope that is fine. > > Regards > > Rakesh > From pawan.durani at gmail.com Thu May 7 12:45:01 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Thu, 7 May 2009 12:45:01 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] People Defy Separatists in Kashmir Yet Again Message-ID: <6b79f1a70905070015j101f938cue79c9aaa5df2160@mail.gmail.com> Thu, May 7 11:56 AM Srinagar, May 7 (ANI): Defying the boycott call given by the separatists, residents came out in large numbers to cast their votes in Kashmir on Thursday. Defying the boycott call, a large number of men and women stood outside the polling station waiting for their turn to cast their votes. The voters termed the poll boycott as wrong and said everybody should cast their votes. "It is wrong to boycott the polls. They are beneficial for us. Everybody should cast their votes and elect the government," said Irfan, a voter. Gun toting policemen kept a hawk eye as they stood guard on the polling station. The security personnel frisked voters before allowing them to enter the polling station. The appeal by the All Parties Hurriyat (Freedom) Conference to stay away from the vote in Srinagar, is seen as an attempt to deny New Delhi any credit for holding elections in the Himalayan region. Kashmir's separatist leaders are struggling to win back popular support, and are hoping that a boycott of Thursday's election may yet breathe new life. The separatists have had to suffer a major setback after residents defied a boycott call given by the Hurriyat during the State Assembly polls held in November 2008 and came out in large numbers to cast their votes. A prominent Kashmiri separatist leader, Sajjad Lone, who had given a call for poll boycott during the state elections, has decided to contest during these general elections and raise the voices of Kashmiris in Parliament. (ANI) From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Thu May 7 13:34:13 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Thu, 7 May 2009 13:34:13 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] would you do this favour for the Delhi state also.? In-Reply-To: <61164a90905062347w133d0372n1ae65661fd1b14e9@mail.gmail.com> References: <61164a90905060352s19a756b2q5c51de43e18e1f93@mail.gmail.com> <61164a90905062347w133d0372n1ae65661fd1b14e9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Rajen jee Let me point out certain things. It is certainly true that central elections and panchayat elections do hamper a state govt from its functioning, but this is there for all governments. Hence, one should analyze performance of Gujarat in this respect. And it's not as for half of the tenure of the govt, it is not able to do anything because of these model code of conducts. At best, it could be around 8-9 months, or even a year maximum. Secondly, this issue you have raised is something I am doubtful about. Hence, I would like the other members of this forum to tell me whether state govts. actually have money for themselves through their own finance department, or banks, or they get all their budget from the central govt. The fact of the matter however is that the Gujarat govt has misused its funds in many issues and in some cases has not utilized them properly. Is not that a failure of the govt. there? And are these just trivial issues, and the Mandir nirman a bigger issue than this? I dont think so. These issues are connected to livelihood, particularly the Sujalam Sufalam scheme which is related to water supply. The Mandir nirman at Ayodhya will not provide the poor with food three times a day throughout their lives. Thirdly, Modi has himself used CAG data to castigate the Congress during Lok Sabha campaigning. The CAG was used in the 2004 elections by the Congress regarding the expenses of the India Shining Campaign. I accept many other institutions have been undermined, but on what basis are you putting forth the claim that the CAG is useless when it makes such points public? What reason would CAG have if the state govt makes schemes for supplying water for those villages which already do get water through other sources? Therefore, my contention is that Modi as the head of this govt, is someone who is certainly not strong or great. He is just like the other CM's we have had, except that in his case, he is lucky that Gujarat doesn't have institutionalized corruption unlike say Bihar, which is why entrepreneurs invest again and again in Gujarat. And in Modi, they have found someone who is like Bush, overcoming all bureaucratic hassles and laws and regulations to get things done. That is what entrepreneurs like, that is what they want. So the Tatas and the Ambanis feel he should be the PM. But that is not what governance requires or the Constitution says. Regards Rakesh From vedavati_jogi at yahoo.com Thu May 7 14:20:46 2009 From: vedavati_jogi at yahoo.com (Vedavati Jogi) Date: Thu, 7 May 2009 14:20:46 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims Message-ID: <957531.96157.qm@web94705.mail.in2.yahoo.com> muslims & hindus need not have to attack eachother. they have been living together in this country since last 1000 years. but i sincerely feel that both should attack sickulars like arundhati roy, tista, left parties and many more,   throw them out of this country (along with gandhian and nehruvian models of secularism) without which true secularism will not be restored  vedavati --- On Wed, 6/5/09, yasir ~يا سر wrote: From: yasir ~يا سر Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims To: "Sarai Reader-list" Date: Wednesday, 6 May, 2009, 11:08 PM dear vedavati and why would muslims attack hindus in any given context, even  IF they chose to do so whether on the list or off, in the absence of the sickulars doing so? On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 4:05 PM, Vedavati Jogi wrote: > what you have written is partially correct. > muslims need not have to attack 'so called' hindus because that job is done > by 'sickulars' on readers-list. > > vedavati > > --- On Wed, 6/5/09, Jeebesh wrote: > > > From: Jeebesh > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims > To: "Sarai Reader-list" > Date: Wednesday, 6 May, 2009, 12:29 AM > > > dear All, > > I do not understand how constantly the list members keep attacking the > same entity called muslims and indian muslims. Well all attackers call > themselves hindus. The viscousness of the attacks baffles me. If they > had power and weapons they can do serious damage. > > On the other hand, i have not seen any person with so called "muslim > name" attack a Hindu or Hinduism, on this list.  So why does so called > Hindus keep attacking muslims in this list. What kind of blood lust is > this? > > Now days Hinduism is a fairly celebrated religion and thousands of > publications and places of worship is a sure sign of that. Yet a weird > sense of injured self seem to have justified all kind of rabble rousing. > > Being cautious of authoritarian organization is one thing, but to keep > on attacking a group of people is appalling. > > warmly > jeebesh > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > >       Own a website.Get an unlimited package.Pay next to nothing.*Go to > http://in.business.yahoo.com/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter http://beta.cricket.yahoo.com From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Thu May 7 14:36:30 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Thu, 7 May 2009 14:36:30 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims In-Reply-To: <957531.96157.qm@web94705.mail.in2.yahoo.com> References: <957531.96157.qm@web94705.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear all If Hindus and Muslims of India can be united forever by attacking a few, then I too would like to be a part of that few to ensure that they live happily forever. That would be better both for India (from the nationalist sake) and for the entire world (from a humanist sake point of view). Regards Rakesh From c.anupam at gmail.com Thu May 7 14:46:36 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Thu, 7 May 2009 14:46:36 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims In-Reply-To: References: <957531.96157.qm@web94705.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <341380d00905070216w22864aa5yf33a9677208b843c@mail.gmail.com> Dear Vedavati jee, To quote you in your previous exchanges with the reader's here: "For me, muslims are Indians moreover they are human beings and not votebanks. Not Babar but Ram was their ancestor." Though i agree with you in the first part of sentence (even though it has a hint of being patronising). the second part of the sentence it is clearly evident that you were forcing your hindu identity on them. so please, before you decide on throwing anyone out of this country, you should remember that your freedom to say whatever is based on that same gandhian model. thanks anupam On 5/7/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > > Dear all > > If Hindus and Muslims of India can be united forever by attacking a > few, then I too would like to be a part of that few to ensure that > they live happily forever. That would be better both for India (from > the nationalist sake) and for the entire world (from a humanist sake > point of view). > > Regards > > Rakesh > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From aliens at dataone.in Thu May 7 15:13:38 2009 From: aliens at dataone.in (bipin) Date: Thu, 07 May 2009 15:13:38 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims References: <957531.96157.qm@web94705.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000e01c9cef8$4cef6b20$0201a8c0@limo> Dear Vedavati, You are very right, throw out all the pseudo-secularist and you will have the new harmonized India and there will be no communal riots at all. thanks Bipin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vedavati Jogi" To: "yasir ~يا سر" Cc: Sent: Thursday, May 07, 2009 2:20 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims > muslims & hindus need not have to attack eachother. they have been living > together in this country since last 1000 years. > but i sincerely feel that both should attack sickulars like arundhati roy, > tista, left parties and many more, > throw them out of this country (along with gandhian and nehruvian models > of secularism) > without which true secularism will not be restored > vedavati > > > --- On Wed, 6/5/09, yasir ~يا سر wrote: > > > From: yasir ~يا سر > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims > To: "Sarai Reader-list" > Date: Wednesday, 6 May, 2009, 11:08 PM > > > dear vedavati > > and why would muslims attack hindus in any given context, even IF they > chose to do so whether on the list or off, in the absence of the sickulars > doing so? > > > > > On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 4:05 PM, Vedavati Jogi > wrote: > >> what you have written is partially correct. >> muslims need not have to attack 'so called' hindus because that job is >> done >> by 'sickulars' on readers-list. >> >> vedavati >> >> --- On Wed, 6/5/09, Jeebesh wrote: >> >> >> From: Jeebesh >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims >> To: "Sarai Reader-list" >> Date: Wednesday, 6 May, 2009, 12:29 AM >> >> >> dear All, >> >> I do not understand how constantly the list members keep attacking the >> same entity called muslims and indian muslims. Well all attackers call >> themselves hindus. The viscousness of the attacks baffles me. If they >> had power and weapons they can do serious damage. >> >> On the other hand, i have not seen any person with so called "muslim >> name" attack a Hindu or Hinduism, on this list. So why does so called >> Hindus keep attacking muslims in this list. What kind of blood lust is >> this? >> >> Now days Hinduism is a fairly celebrated religion and thousands of >> publications and places of worship is a sure sign of that. Yet a weird >> sense of injured self seem to have justified all kind of rabble rousing. >> >> Being cautious of authoritarian organization is one thing, but to keep >> on attacking a group of people is appalling. >> >> warmly >> jeebesh >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: >> >> >> Own a website.Get an unlimited package.Pay next to nothing.*Go to >> http://in.business.yahoo.com/ >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter > http://beta.cricket.yahoo.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Thu May 7 15:24:52 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Thu, 7 May 2009 02:54:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] siliguri In-Reply-To: <5af37bb0905060933h28add0eavb88db65ed4c64d7b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <930030.10264.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Yasir   The video shows policemen using lathis on some men in civilian clothes so do not understand reference to some "regiment" being beaten up.   Who is being beaten up and for what reason cannot be inferred from the video.   There is a Gorkhaland movement which primarily demands a seperate administrative unit (State). Apart from vague whiffs, I do not know of it being 'separatist' or with a 'Govt in Exile' or with a 'Rebel Army' which would have a 'Gorkha Regiment'.   There are Gorkha Regiments in the Indian Army. It would be much more like that they would be beating up the Police in a confrontation.   It may be so that the video is of some Gorkhalanders being lathi-charged.    Kshmendra --- On Wed, 5/6/09, yasir ~يا سر wrote: From: yasir ~يا سر Subject: Re: [Reader-list] siliguri To: "Sarai Reader-list" Date: Wednesday, May 6, 2009, 10:03 PM ok. the title is : * Lathi Charge in Siliguri against Indian Gorkha Regiment by West Bengal Police* how can the police beat up the Indian Gorkha Regiment ??* *isn't it more common the other way round. you cant mess with the army?* * On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 3:23 PM, subhrodip sengupta wrote: > What else than the police seeking revenge, and using muscle power and human > right violation as tools to establish their supremacy! > > ------------------------------ > *From:* yasir ~يا سر > *To:* sarai list > *Sent:* Tuesday, 5 May, 2009 4:05:25 PM > *Subject:* [Reader-list] siliguri > > so what is going on here? i dont understand the title. best. > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvaCr1lPD6k > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > ------------------------------ > Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter now! > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From javedmasoo at gmail.com Thu May 7 15:55:08 2009 From: javedmasoo at gmail.com (M Javed) Date: Thu, 7 May 2009 15:55:08 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of ... Message-ID: Dear Vedavati You are right that Hindus and Muslims have been living together for 1000 years, but the real reason they lived together was that (despite the Alauddin Khaljis and Ghaznavis and Aurangzebs) there also existed in this country certain saner elements in the form of Kabir, Amir Khusro, Nizamuddin Aulia, Tulsidas, Surdas, Dara Shikoh, Guru Nanak and so on, who kept making efforts to bring people together at one platform despite their differences. And let me tell you that it is these people (Kabir, Nanak, Khusro) who were outcast in those days in the same fashion as you want to outcast your "sickulars". Yet we remember such people as the stalwarts of Indian secular tradition and so on. There may be some issues related to each person, but I consider people like Arundhati Roy, Teesta Setalvad, Binayak Sen and Safdar Hashmi as today's Kabirs and Dadu. If Hindus and Muslims couldn't survive peacefully in the past without the intervention of our Sufis and Bhakts, India cannot survive today without the relentless activism of Setalvad and Swami Agnivesh. I salute them for keeping the sanity alive. Javed On 5/7/09, Vedavati Jogi wrote: > muslims & hindus need not have to attack eachother. they have been living > together in this country since last 1000 years. > but i sincerely feel that both should attack sickulars like arundhati roy, > tista, left parties and many more, > throw them out of this country (along with gandhian and nehruvian models of > secularism) > without which true secularism will not be restored > vedavati > > > --- On Wed, 6/5/09, yasir ~يا سر wrote: > > > From: yasir ~يا سر > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims > To: "Sarai Reader-list" > Date: Wednesday, 6 May, 2009, 11:08 PM > > > dear vedavati > > and why would muslims attack hindus in any given context, even IF they > chose to do so whether on the list or off, in the absence of the sickulars > doing so? > > > > > On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 4:05 PM, Vedavati Jogi > wrote: > >> what you have written is partially correct. >> muslims need not have to attack 'so called' hindus because that job is >> done >> by 'sickulars' on readers-list. >> >> vedavati >> >> --- On Wed, 6/5/09, Jeebesh wrote: >> >> >> From: Jeebesh >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims >> To: "Sarai Reader-list" >> Date: Wednesday, 6 May, 2009, 12:29 AM >> >> >> dear All, >> >> I do not understand how constantly the list members keep attacking the >> same entity called muslims and indian muslims. Well all attackers call >> themselves hindus. The viscousness of the attacks baffles me. If they >> had power and weapons they can do serious damage. >> >> On the other hand, i have not seen any person with so called "muslim >> name" attack a Hindu or Hinduism, on this list. So why does so called >> Hindus keep attacking muslims in this list. What kind of blood lust is >> this? >> >> Now days Hinduism is a fairly celebrated religion and thousands of >> publications and places of worship is a sure sign of that. Yet a weird >> sense of injured self seem to have justified all kind of rabble rousing. >> >> Being cautious of authoritarian organization is one thing, but to keep >> on attacking a group of people is appalling. >> >> warmly >> jeebesh >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: >> >> >> Own a website.Get an unlimited package.Pay next to nothing.*Go to >> http://in.business.yahoo.com/ >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter > http://beta.cricket.yahoo.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Thu May 7 16:05:53 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Thu, 7 May 2009 03:35:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims In-Reply-To: <47e122a70905060435o731921beo15e52e2185c2617f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <726971.26113.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Inder   Thank you for responding.   Now please tell me what is there in my writing which you have so kindly reproduced that led your telling me that I had " ... instantly clubbed development of Gujarat with Modi."   On the contrary I had expressed (in my mail to Jeebesh) agreement with the following words of  Tridip Suhrd:   """"" If evil ever pretended to be good in the guise of  development, Sanjay and Modi are the siblings of modernity that we can  do without. """""" Is there any ambiguity in these words with which I agreed.   Dear Inder, I have had this problem with you in the past also, and I had repeatedly requested you then and I am again requesting you ...... please do not attribute to me what I have not said.   Kshmendra    --- On Wed, 5/6/09, Inder Salim wrote: From: Inder Salim Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims To: "reader-list" Date: Wednesday, May 6, 2009, 5:05 PM Kshmenda to Jeebesh : That is the reason why I find too starkly prejudicial TS's statement about Modi """" Here is a man incapable of care and nurturance reincarnating himself in, and as, an act of violence."""" No one is incapable of 'care and nurturance'. No one is evil incarnate. Such monsterisation is as ill-advised as deification. It serves as an easy answer but is far from any completeness of understanding of a person. Such a statement is also disrespectful and dismissive about Gujarat and it's people who TS identifies so closely with as is evident in the essay "In Defeat, Let Us Reclaim Our Selves" (Essay 2) A question I have (asked on this List too) "What does sending Modi back into office say about the people of Gujarat? Why did they do it?". I believe the answer to that question of importance. No one cares to address that. I do not have the intelligence/knowledge to do it. Damning Modi is easily done but that does not answer the question. On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 4:16 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Inder > > Request you to answer a simple question before I address the other points in > your mail. Please do honour this request. > > Where have I (as put by you) > >  """""instantly clubbed development of Gujarat with Modi."""""" > > Will be grateful for your response evidencing that statement attributed to > me. > > Not even in my dreams would I find any excuse (including any economic > development) that would justify or make bearable the person of Modi for me. > > Kshmendra > > > > --- On Wed, 5/6/09, Inder Salim wrote: > > From: Inder Salim > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims > To: "reader-list" > Date: Wednesday, May 6, 2009, 12:07 AM > > Dear Kshmendra, > I am not using this an opportunity to point out this fact, but it > struck me earlier as well..... when you instantly clubbed development > of Gujarat with Modi. > > I agree that ‘evil’ cant be visualized just in the face of one > bearded man,........... but we must not forget how Germany progressed > under HItler as well. So what is Development? Imagine if the boys who > killed Aman Kachroo were toppers, would you forgive them? > > I guess no. We have to ask many questions to ourselves, before we > ask others. here muslims, poor muslims .who never voted for Partition, > never knew even about what it was all aboutt, and never know even why > they are called pakistanis here in India, and never even know why they > are sometimes unwittingly following a green colour with crecent and > star, never know even that it has nothing to do with Islam....... > > The issue of Flag and Indian Muslims is as old one. We all know, how > Kashmiris wittingly vent their anger against Indian occupation by > identifying themselves with this flag. It has all to do with > partition related pending issues.... whether u like it not, Pakistan > is a reality, even during the current crises. And pakistan is not only > green, crescent and star , but something more like India is not > tricolour only > > It is here, your intellect falls on banana peels, because you have > zero tolerance against something called Nation State. > > you feel, nothing should rip this sacred word, not even at the level > of rhetoric...not even if Plague like thing fills the air we breath. > > i am Indian , but I dont know who qualifies as a true Indian in the > first place.......where are those translations which we can store in a > locker room, and exhibit as tags on our foreheads to describe our > loyaty to the Nation as and when a so called Hindu Indian demands from > us... why so > > Meanwhile, like Narender Modi i too think you have a brilliant mind, a > talent to grasp the content of mails quickly and reflect back with > speed, but alas, ....... > > > with love and regards > inder salim > > I quote Kshmendra from you other brilliant response to Jebeesh forward > of Tridip Suhrud > > A hundred years from today will anyone other than Gandhi (MK) belong > to history? I see no one who will be anything more than italicised > footnotes in very small print. > > again, Mr. Kshmendra, u are wrong, which does not mean that i am right > > is > > > > On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 5:19 PM, Kshmendra Kaul > wrote: >> >> QUOTE: >> >> It also carried drawings of two white and black flags, the former being > the main flag of Holy Prophet Muhammad (Peace be Upon Him) and the latter > his > military standard. Even now, black-turbaned TNSM members carry the small > white > and black flags as they walk ahead of Sufi Mohammad. ...... UNQUOTE >> >> This quote is from an article on Maulana Sufi Mohammad written by > Rahimullah Yusufzai. >> http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=175825 >> >> No green flag. No crescent and star on it. >> >> The green flag with the crescent and star on it which is used by Indian > Muslims has often caused misunderstandings. >> >> One recent example has been Simi Garewal talking about Pakistani Flags > being flown by Indian Muslims. She apologised later for having mistaken the > Islamic Flag of the Indian Muslims for the Pakistani Flag. >> >> The close resemblance between the 2 flags confused even > Anupam Chakravartty, who inspite of video coverage from Times Now showing it > to > be a Pakistani Flag, insisted that what was flown in Assam with " sickle > (sic) and star on green background  is an islamic symbol" >> http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2009-April/018755.html >> >> In an earlier mail I had commented: >> >> """""" If this is factual, then the question > arises for the Indian Muslims that should they be thinking about using the > Islamic Flag without the Crescent and Star so that it does not appear to be > close to being the flag of Pakistan? """""" >> http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2008-December/017016.html >> >> Just thinking aloud >> >> Kshmendra >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From aliens at dataone.in Thu May 7 16:26:52 2009 From: aliens at dataone.in (bipin) Date: Thu, 07 May 2009 16:26:52 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of ... References: Message-ID: <000801c9cf02$9e0790f0$0201a8c0@limo> What a joke. Greatest joke of the era to compare Arundhati Roy, Teesta Setalvad, Binayak Sen and Safdar Hashmi as today's Kabirs and Dadu. Sorry its democratic country and freedom of speech must be there, but one should respect our historian. ----- Original Message ----- From: "M Javed" To: "Vedavati Jogi" Cc: Sent: Thursday, May 07, 2009 3:55 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of ... > Dear Vedavati > > You are right that Hindus and Muslims have been living together for > 1000 years, but the real reason they lived together was that (despite > the Alauddin Khaljis and Ghaznavis and Aurangzebs) there also existed > in this country certain saner elements in the form of Kabir, Amir > Khusro, Nizamuddin Aulia, Tulsidas, Surdas, Dara Shikoh, Guru Nanak > and so on, who kept making efforts to bring people together at one > platform despite their differences. And let me tell you that it is > these people (Kabir, Nanak, Khusro) who were outcast in those days in > the same fashion as you want to outcast your "sickulars". Yet we > remember such people as the stalwarts of Indian secular tradition and > so on. There may be some issues related to each person, but I consider > people like Arundhati Roy, Teesta Setalvad, Binayak Sen and Safdar > Hashmi as today's Kabirs and Dadu. > > If Hindus and Muslims couldn't survive peacefully in the past without > the intervention of our Sufis and Bhakts, India cannot survive today > without the relentless activism of Setalvad and Swami Agnivesh. I > salute them for keeping the sanity alive. > > Javed > > > On 5/7/09, Vedavati Jogi wrote: >> muslims & hindus need not have to attack eachother. they have been living >> together in this country since last 1000 years. >> but i sincerely feel that both should attack sickulars like arundhati >> roy, >> tista, left parties and many more, >> throw them out of this country (along with gandhian and nehruvian models >> of >> secularism) >> without which true secularism will not be restored >> vedavati >> >> >> --- On Wed, 6/5/09, yasir ~يا سر wrote: >> >> >> From: yasir ~يا سر >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims >> To: "Sarai Reader-list" >> Date: Wednesday, 6 May, 2009, 11:08 PM >> >> >> dear vedavati >> >> and why would muslims attack hindus in any given context, even IF they >> chose to do so whether on the list or off, in the absence of the >> sickulars >> doing so? >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 4:05 PM, Vedavati Jogi >> wrote: >> >>> what you have written is partially correct. >>> muslims need not have to attack 'so called' hindus because that job is >>> done >>> by 'sickulars' on readers-list. >>> >>> vedavati >>> >>> --- On Wed, 6/5/09, Jeebesh wrote: >>> >>> >>> From: Jeebesh >>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims >>> To: "Sarai Reader-list" >>> Date: Wednesday, 6 May, 2009, 12:29 AM >>> >>> >>> dear All, >>> >>> I do not understand how constantly the list members keep attacking the >>> same entity called muslims and indian muslims. Well all attackers call >>> themselves hindus. The viscousness of the attacks baffles me. If they >>> had power and weapons they can do serious damage. >>> >>> On the other hand, i have not seen any person with so called "muslim >>> name" attack a Hindu or Hinduism, on this list. So why does so called >>> Hindus keep attacking muslims in this list. What kind of blood lust is >>> this? >>> >>> Now days Hinduism is a fairly celebrated religion and thousands of >>> publications and places of worship is a sure sign of that. Yet a weird >>> sense of injured self seem to have justified all kind of rabble rousing. >>> >>> Being cautious of authoritarian organization is one thing, but to keep >>> on attacking a group of people is appalling. >>> >>> warmly >>> jeebesh >>> >>> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: >>> >>> >>> Own a website.Get an unlimited package.Pay next to nothing.*Go to >>> http://in.business.yahoo.com/ >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: >>> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe >> in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter >> http://beta.cricket.yahoo.com >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe >> in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Thu May 7 16:28:33 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Thu, 7 May 2009 16:28:33 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Pandits Boycott Polls Message-ID: <6b79f1a70905070358tc644129w8a7541fd75b2a01b@mail.gmail.com> http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/politics/kashmiri-pandits-unhappy-with-migrant-tag-boycott-polls-lead_100189501.html New Delhi, May 7 (IANS) Unhappy at being classified as “migrants”, the Kashmiri Pandits who were forced to leave their homes in the Kashmir Valley boycotted elections Thursday. The Election Commission has not received a single ‘M’ (Migrant) form, which Kashmiri Pandit migrants have to fill up to be eligible to vote. “We have advertised in the newspapers asking the Kashmiri Pandits to fill up the ‘M’ form, but nobody has responded. Though we had made arrangement for voting for Kashmiri Pandits at four places in Delhi but no one is voting,” Ghulam Qadir Bawa, the assistant returning officer for Kashmiri Pandits, told IANS. The number of eligible voters in the community has dropped considerably from the voter list of Jammu and Kashmir state for the past 12 years. In 1996 there were 147,000 voters but the figure went down to 117,000 in 2002 and further to 71,000 during last year’s assembly polls. “I did not vote in protest. This is a kind of discrimination. We are not migrants. Migrants are those who moved out of the valley on their own will. It was a forced exodus. Even the UN calls us internally displaced person,” Aditya Raj Kaul, a Kashmiri activist, said. “We should have normal voter Id cards like every other Indian. Moreover, except for Jammu and Delhi, Kashmiri Pandits cannot vote anywhere else. Don’t the Kashmiris settled elsewhere in India have voting rights?” Kaul asked. The sentiments were echoed by Rashneek Kher of the Roots in Kashmir organisation. “Kashmiri Pandits are spread across the country but I think not more than 25,000 would have access to voting. Also the requirement of ‘M’ form is 100 percent discriminatory. I am as much an Indian as anybody else. “We have not moved out the valley out of choice. It (the migrant tag) is a misnomer,” Kher told IANS. Kher also added that though he filled up the requisite forms couple of years ago he is yet to get his voter Id card. “It is not just me. I know many people in the NCR (national capital region). About 20,000 people had filled up the forms and of them only about 2,000 have got their voter-Id cards,” Kher added. At a time when voter registration is just a mouse-click away the “tedious” process of filling the ‘M’ form is a big setback. “The process is very cumbersome. You have to get the ‘M’ form from the relief commissioner in Jammu. Moreover, the poll process is meaningless till our issues are addressed,” said Panun Kashmir national spokesman Kamal Hak. Kashmiri Hindus were forced to flee their homeland when separatist militancy erupted more than two decades ago in Jammu and Kashmir. Some 300,000 Pandits fled the Kashmir Valley since 1989, when militancy was at its peak, at times targeting members of the community. Today, most of them live in Jammu, New Delhi, Chandigarh, Bangalore and Mumbai. Only about 3,000 still reside in the valley. From c.anupam at gmail.com Thu May 7 16:33:18 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Thu, 7 May 2009 16:33:18 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of ... In-Reply-To: <000801c9cf02$9e0790f0$0201a8c0@limo> References: <000801c9cf02$9e0790f0$0201a8c0@limo> Message-ID: <341380d00905070403m525fffb8wd1df39ca041b0087@mail.gmail.com> bipin, do you even know who safdar hashmi was? anupam On 5/7/09, bipin wrote: > > What a joke. Greatest joke of the era to compare Arundhati Roy, Teesta > Setalvad, Binayak Sen and Safdar Hashmi as today's Kabirs and Dadu. > > Sorry its democratic country and freedom of speech must be there, but one > should respect our historian. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "M Javed" > To: "Vedavati Jogi" > Cc: > Sent: Thursday, May 07, 2009 3:55 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of ... > > > > Dear Vedavati > > > > You are right that Hindus and Muslims have been living together for > > 1000 years, but the real reason they lived together was that (despite > > the Alauddin Khaljis and Ghaznavis and Aurangzebs) there also existed > > in this country certain saner elements in the form of Kabir, Amir > > Khusro, Nizamuddin Aulia, Tulsidas, Surdas, Dara Shikoh, Guru Nanak > > and so on, who kept making efforts to bring people together at one > > platform despite their differences. And let me tell you that it is > > these people (Kabir, Nanak, Khusro) who were outcast in those days in > > the same fashion as you want to outcast your "sickulars". Yet we > > remember such people as the stalwarts of Indian secular tradition and > > so on. There may be some issues related to each person, but I consider > > people like Arundhati Roy, Teesta Setalvad, Binayak Sen and Safdar > > Hashmi as today's Kabirs and Dadu. > > > > If Hindus and Muslims couldn't survive peacefully in the past without > > the intervention of our Sufis and Bhakts, India cannot survive today > > without the relentless activism of Setalvad and Swami Agnivesh. I > > salute them for keeping the sanity alive. > > > > Javed > > > > > > On 5/7/09, Vedavati Jogi wrote: > >> muslims & hindus need not have to attack eachother. they have been > living > >> together in this country since last 1000 years. > >> but i sincerely feel that both should attack sickulars like arundhati > >> roy, > >> tista, left parties and many more, > >> throw them out of this country (along with gandhian and nehruvian models > >> of > >> secularism) > >> without which true secularism will not be restored > >> vedavati > >> > >> > >> --- On Wed, 6/5/09, yasir ~يا سر wrote: > >> > >> > >> From: yasir ~يا سر > >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims > >> To: "Sarai Reader-list" > >> Date: Wednesday, 6 May, 2009, 11:08 PM > >> > >> > >> dear vedavati > >> > >> and why would muslims attack hindus in any given context, even IF they > >> chose to do so whether on the list or off, in the absence of the > >> sickulars > >> doing so? > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 4:05 PM, Vedavati Jogi > >> wrote: > >> > >>> what you have written is partially correct. > >>> muslims need not have to attack 'so called' hindus because that job is > >>> done > >>> by 'sickulars' on readers-list. > >>> > >>> vedavati > >>> > >>> --- On Wed, 6/5/09, Jeebesh wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>> From: Jeebesh > >>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims > >>> To: "Sarai Reader-list" > >>> Date: Wednesday, 6 May, 2009, 12:29 AM > >>> > >>> > >>> dear All, > >>> > >>> I do not understand how constantly the list members keep attacking the > >>> same entity called muslims and indian muslims. Well all attackers call > >>> themselves hindus. The viscousness of the attacks baffles me. If they > >>> had power and weapons they can do serious damage. > >>> > >>> On the other hand, i have not seen any person with so called "muslim > >>> name" attack a Hindu or Hinduism, on this list. So why does so called > >>> Hindus keep attacking muslims in this list. What kind of blood lust is > >>> this? > >>> > >>> Now days Hinduism is a fairly celebrated religion and thousands of > >>> publications and places of worship is a sure sign of that. Yet a weird > >>> sense of injured self seem to have justified all kind of rabble > rousing. > >>> > >>> Being cautious of authoritarian organization is one thing, but to keep > >>> on attacking a group of people is appalling. > >>> > >>> warmly > >>> jeebesh > >>> > >>> > >>> _________________________________________ > >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>> subscribe in the subject header. > >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>> List archive: > >>> > >>> > >>> Own a website.Get an unlimited package.Pay next to nothing.*Go to > >>> http://in.business.yahoo.com/ > >>> _________________________________________ > >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>> subscribe in the subject header. > >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>> List archive: > >>> > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe > >> in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > >> > >> Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter > >> http://beta.cricket.yahoo.com > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe > >> in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Thu May 7 16:40:28 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Thu, 7 May 2009 16:40:28 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of ... In-Reply-To: <341380d00905070403m525fffb8wd1df39ca041b0087@mail.gmail.com> References: <000801c9cf02$9e0790f0$0201a8c0@limo> <341380d00905070403m525fffb8wd1df39ca041b0087@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70905070410n7e7c7874wd0330929105df344@mail.gmail.com> Looks like we are heading for a record thread mail .....with that i am 'sahmat' Clap ...Clap .....Clap........ On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 4:33 PM, anupam chakravartty wrote: > bipin, do you even know who safdar hashmi was? > > anupam > > > On 5/7/09, bipin wrote: > > > > What a joke. Greatest joke of the era to compare Arundhati Roy, Teesta > > Setalvad, Binayak Sen and Safdar Hashmi as today's Kabirs and Dadu. > > > > Sorry its democratic country and freedom of speech must be there, but one > > should respect our historian. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "M Javed" > > To: "Vedavati Jogi" > > Cc: > > Sent: Thursday, May 07, 2009 3:55 PM > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of ... > > > > > > > Dear Vedavati > > > > > > You are right that Hindus and Muslims have been living together for > > > 1000 years, but the real reason they lived together was that (despite > > > the Alauddin Khaljis and Ghaznavis and Aurangzebs) there also existed > > > in this country certain saner elements in the form of Kabir, Amir > > > Khusro, Nizamuddin Aulia, Tulsidas, Surdas, Dara Shikoh, Guru Nanak > > > and so on, who kept making efforts to bring people together at one > > > platform despite their differences. And let me tell you that it is > > > these people (Kabir, Nanak, Khusro) who were outcast in those days in > > > the same fashion as you want to outcast your "sickulars". Yet we > > > remember such people as the stalwarts of Indian secular tradition and > > > so on. There may be some issues related to each person, but I consider > > > people like Arundhati Roy, Teesta Setalvad, Binayak Sen and Safdar > > > Hashmi as today's Kabirs and Dadu. > > > > > > If Hindus and Muslims couldn't survive peacefully in the past without > > > the intervention of our Sufis and Bhakts, India cannot survive today > > > without the relentless activism of Setalvad and Swami Agnivesh. I > > > salute them for keeping the sanity alive. > > > > > > Javed > > > > > > > > > On 5/7/09, Vedavati Jogi wrote: > > >> muslims & hindus need not have to attack eachother. they have been > > living > > >> together in this country since last 1000 years. > > >> but i sincerely feel that both should attack sickulars like arundhati > > >> roy, > > >> tista, left parties and many more, > > >> throw them out of this country (along with gandhian and nehruvian > models > > >> of > > >> secularism) > > >> without which true secularism will not be restored > > >> vedavati > > >> > > >> > > >> --- On Wed, 6/5/09, yasir ~يا سر wrote: > > >> > > >> > > >> From: yasir ~يا سر > > >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims > > >> To: "Sarai Reader-list" > > >> Date: Wednesday, 6 May, 2009, 11:08 PM > > >> > > >> > > >> dear vedavati > > >> > > >> and why would muslims attack hindus in any given context, even IF > they > > >> chose to do so whether on the list or off, in the absence of the > > >> sickulars > > >> doing so? > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 4:05 PM, Vedavati Jogi > > >> wrote: > > >> > > >>> what you have written is partially correct. > > >>> muslims need not have to attack 'so called' hindus because that job > is > > >>> done > > >>> by 'sickulars' on readers-list. > > >>> > > >>> vedavati > > >>> > > >>> --- On Wed, 6/5/09, Jeebesh wrote: > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> From: Jeebesh > > >>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims > > >>> To: "Sarai Reader-list" > > >>> Date: Wednesday, 6 May, 2009, 12:29 AM > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> dear All, > > >>> > > >>> I do not understand how constantly the list members keep attacking > the > > >>> same entity called muslims and indian muslims. Well all attackers > call > > >>> themselves hindus. The viscousness of the attacks baffles me. If they > > >>> had power and weapons they can do serious damage. > > >>> > > >>> On the other hand, i have not seen any person with so called "muslim > > >>> name" attack a Hindu or Hinduism, on this list. So why does so > called > > >>> Hindus keep attacking muslims in this list. What kind of blood lust > is > > >>> this? > > >>> > > >>> Now days Hinduism is a fairly celebrated religion and thousands of > > >>> publications and places of worship is a sure sign of that. Yet a > weird > > >>> sense of injured self seem to have justified all kind of rabble > > rousing. > > >>> > > >>> Being cautious of authoritarian organization is one thing, but to > keep > > >>> on attacking a group of people is appalling. > > >>> > > >>> warmly > > >>> jeebesh > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> _________________________________________ > > >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >>> Critiques & Collaborations > > >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > >>> subscribe in the subject header. > > >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >>> List archive: > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> Own a website.Get an unlimited package.Pay next to nothing.*Go > to > > >>> http://in.business.yahoo.com/ > > >>> _________________________________________ > > >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >>> Critiques & Collaborations > > >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > >>> subscribe in the subject header. > > >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >>> List archive: > > >>> > > >> _________________________________________ > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >> Critiques & Collaborations > > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > >> subscribe > > >> in the subject header. > > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > >> > > >> > > >> Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter > > >> http://beta.cricket.yahoo.com > > >> _________________________________________ > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >> Critiques & Collaborations > > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > >> subscribe > > >> in the subject header. > > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From c.anupam at gmail.com Thu May 7 17:15:46 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Thu, 7 May 2009 17:15:46 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of ... In-Reply-To: <001c01c9cf05$7384f810$0201a8c0@limo> References: <000801c9cf02$9e0790f0$0201a8c0@limo> <341380d00905070403m525fffb8wd1df39ca041b0087@mail.gmail.com> <001c01c9cf05$7384f810$0201a8c0@limo> Message-ID: <341380d00905070445s3b0235cbx1efe50710e03d9d8@mail.gmail.com> actually bipin, i refuse to give any kind of introduction to safdar hashmi to a person like you. and moreover, it is clear that now you are abusing your freedom of expression. so engaging with someone who can stoop to such levels to get their point across is completely pointless. -anupam On 5/7/09, bipin wrote: > > When you put Shafdar Hashmi with the list of Teesta and Arundhati no need > to know even. Anyway I will appreciate your introduction of Mr. Shafdar > Hashmi!!! My point is to respect the history personal that's all and stop > the irrelevant comparison. > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "anupam chakravartty" < > c.anupam at gmail.com> > To: "sarai list" > Sent: Thursday, May 07, 2009 4:33 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of ... > > > bipin, do you even know who safdar hashmi was? >> >> anupam >> >> >> On 5/7/09, bipin wrote: >> >>> >>> What a joke. Greatest joke of the era to compare Arundhati Roy, Teesta >>> Setalvad, Binayak Sen and Safdar Hashmi as today's Kabirs and Dadu. >>> >>> Sorry its democratic country and freedom of speech must be there, but one >>> should respect our historian. >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "M Javed" >>> To: "Vedavati Jogi" >>> Cc: >>> Sent: Thursday, May 07, 2009 3:55 PM >>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of ... >>> >>> >>> > Dear Vedavati >>> > >>> > You are right that Hindus and Muslims have been living together for >>> > 1000 years, but the real reason they lived together was that (despite >>> > the Alauddin Khaljis and Ghaznavis and Aurangzebs) there also existed >>> > in this country certain saner elements in the form of Kabir, Amir >>> > Khusro, Nizamuddin Aulia, Tulsidas, Surdas, Dara Shikoh, Guru Nanak >>> > and so on, who kept making efforts to bring people together at one >>> > platform despite their differences. And let me tell you that it is >>> > these people (Kabir, Nanak, Khusro) who were outcast in those days in >>> > the same fashion as you want to outcast your "sickulars". Yet we >>> > remember such people as the stalwarts of Indian secular tradition and >>> > so on. There may be some issues related to each person, but I consider >>> > people like Arundhati Roy, Teesta Setalvad, Binayak Sen and Safdar >>> > Hashmi as today's Kabirs and Dadu. >>> > >>> > If Hindus and Muslims couldn't survive peacefully in the past without >>> > the intervention of our Sufis and Bhakts, India cannot survive today >>> > without the relentless activism of Setalvad and Swami Agnivesh. I >>> > salute them for keeping the sanity alive. >>> > >>> > Javed >>> > >>> > >>> > On 5/7/09, Vedavati Jogi wrote: >>> >> muslims & hindus need not have to attack eachother. they have been >>> living >>> >> together in this country since last 1000 years. >>> >> but i sincerely feel that both should attack sickulars like arundhati >>> >> roy, >>> >> tista, left parties and many more, >>> >> throw them out of this country (along with gandhian and nehruvian >> >>> models >>> >> of >>> >> secularism) >>> >> without which true secularism will not be restored >>> >> vedavati >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> --- On Wed, 6/5/09, yasir ~يا سر wrote: >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> From: yasir ~يا سر >>> >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims >>> >> To: "Sarai Reader-list" >>> >> Date: Wednesday, 6 May, 2009, 11:08 PM >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> dear vedavati >>> >> >>> >> and why would muslims attack hindus in any given context, even IF >> >>> they >>> >> chose to do so whether on the list or off, in the absence of the >>> >> sickulars >>> >> doing so? >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 4:05 PM, Vedavati Jogi >>> >> wrote: >>> >> >>> >>> what you have written is partially correct. >>> >>> muslims need not have to attack 'so called' hindus because that job >>> >>> is >>> >>> done >>> >>> by 'sickulars' on readers-list. >>> >>> >>> >>> vedavati >>> >>> >>> >>> --- On Wed, 6/5/09, Jeebesh wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> From: Jeebesh >>> >>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims >>> >>> To: "Sarai Reader-list" >>> >>> Date: Wednesday, 6 May, 2009, 12:29 AM >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> dear All, >>> >>> >>> >>> I do not understand how constantly the list members keep attacking >>> >>> the >>> >>> same entity called muslims and indian muslims. Well all attackers >>> >>> call >>> >>> themselves hindus. The viscousness of the attacks baffles me. If they >>> >>> had power and weapons they can do serious damage. >>> >>> >>> >>> On the other hand, i have not seen any person with so called "muslim >>> >>> name" attack a Hindu or Hinduism, on this list. So why does so >>> >>> called >>> >>> Hindus keep attacking muslims in this list. What kind of blood lust >>> >>> is >>> >>> this? >>> >>> >>> >>> Now days Hinduism is a fairly celebrated religion and thousands of >>> >>> publications and places of worship is a sure sign of that. Yet a >>> >>> weird >>> >>> sense of injured self seem to have justified all kind of rabble >>> rousing. >>> >>> >>> >>> Being cautious of authoritarian organization is one thing, but to >>> >>> keep >>> >>> on attacking a group of people is appalling. >>> >>> >>> >>> warmly >>> >>> jeebesh >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _________________________________________ >>> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> >>> List archive: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Own a website.Get an unlimited package.Pay next to nothing.*Go >>> >>> to >>> >>> http://in.business.yahoo.com/ >>> >>> _________________________________________ >>> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> >>> List archive: >>> >>> >>> >> _________________________________________ >>> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> >> Critiques & Collaborations >>> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> >> subscribe >>> >> in the subject header. >>> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter >>> >> http://beta.cricket.yahoo.com >>> >> _________________________________________ >>> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> >> Critiques & Collaborations >>> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> >> subscribe >>> >> in the subject header. >>> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> > _________________________________________ >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> > Critiques & Collaborations >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> > subscribe in the subject header. >>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Thu May 7 17:36:27 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Thu, 7 May 2009 05:06:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] "Aged And Outdated Leaders" (From INDIAN MUSLIMS.IN) Message-ID: <245732.91056.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Article by M Shamsur Rabb Khan "India Votes : Aged And Outdated Leaders" on the Web Forum INDIAN MUSLIMS.IN    Reproducing here only Table on "Average Age of Dr. Manmohan Singh Cabinet".   Complete article can be accessed at http://indianmuslims.in/indian-politicians-age/   Kshmendra   Table 1: Average Age of Dr. Manmohan Singh Cabinet   Cabinet Minister (Year Of Birth) Age   1. Dr. Manmohan Singh (1932) 76 2. Pranab Mukherjee (1935) 73 3. Arjun Singh (1930) 78 4. A.K. Antony (1940) 68 5. Sharad Pawar (1940) 68 6. Lalu Prasad Yadav (1947) 61 7. Shivraj V. Patil (1935)* 73 8. Ram Vilas Paswan (1946) 62 9. S. Jaipal Reddy (1942) 66 10. Sish Ram Ola (1927) 81 11. P. Chidambaram (1945) 62 12. Mahavir Prasad (1939) 69 13. P.R. Kyndiah (1928) 80 14. T.R. Baalu (1941) 67 15. Shankarsinh Vaghela (1940) 68 16. Kamal Nath (1946) 62 17. H.R. Bhardwaj (1937) 71 18. Raghuvansh Prasad Singh (1946) 62 19. Priyaranjan Dasmunsi (1945) 63 20. Mani Shankar Aiyar (1941) 67 21. Meira Kumar (1945) 63 22. A Raja (1963) 45 23. Dr. Anbumani Ramdoss (1968) 40 24. Sushil Kumar Shinde (1941) 67 25. A.R.Antulay (1929) 79 26. Vayalar Ravi (1937) 71 27. Murli Deora (1937) 71 28. Ambika Soni (1943) 65 29. Prof. Saif-u-Din Soz (1937) 71 30. Sontosh Mohan Dev (1934) 74 31. Prem Chand Gupta (1950) 58 32. Kapil Sibal (1948) 60 Average Age 66.90   Note: # In the bracket is date of birth * No more in the cabinet   Note: all calculations are done between January 28-30, 2009 From javedmasoo at gmail.com Thu May 7 17:37:51 2009 From: javedmasoo at gmail.com (M Javed) Date: Thu, 7 May 2009 17:37:51 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of ... In-Reply-To: <000801c9cf02$9e0790f0$0201a8c0@limo> References: <000801c9cf02$9e0790f0$0201a8c0@limo> Message-ID: Dear Bipin Even Kabir was considered a joke in his time - all great reformers were considered jokers in their times. Gandhi was assassinated by Godse. And so on and so forth. So, we can't help it if you see history and present in your skewed way. J On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 4:26 PM, bipin wrote: > What a joke. Greatest joke of the era to compare Arundhati Roy, Teesta > Setalvad, Binayak Sen and Safdar Hashmi as today's Kabirs and Dadu. > > Sorry its democratic country and freedom of speech must be there, but one > should respect our historian. > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "M Javed" > To: "Vedavati Jogi" > Cc: > Sent: Thursday, May 07, 2009 3:55 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of ... > > >> Dear Vedavati >> >> You are right that Hindus and Muslims have been living together for >> 1000 years, but the real reason they lived together was that (despite >> the Alauddin Khaljis and Ghaznavis and Aurangzebs) there also existed >> in this country certain saner elements in the form of Kabir, Amir >> Khusro, Nizamuddin Aulia, Tulsidas, Surdas, Dara Shikoh, Guru Nanak >> and so on, who kept making efforts to bring people together at one >> platform despite their differences. And let me tell you that it is >> these people (Kabir, Nanak, Khusro) who were outcast in those days in >> the same fashion as you want to outcast your "sickulars". Yet we >> remember such people as the stalwarts of Indian secular tradition and >> so on. There may be some issues related to each person, but I consider >> people like Arundhati Roy, Teesta Setalvad, Binayak Sen and Safdar >> Hashmi as today's Kabirs and Dadu. >> >> If Hindus and Muslims couldn't survive peacefully in the past without >> the intervention of our Sufis and Bhakts, India cannot survive today >> without the relentless activism of Setalvad and Swami Agnivesh. I >> salute them for keeping the sanity alive. >> >> Javed >> >> >> On 5/7/09, Vedavati Jogi wrote: >>> >>> muslims & hindus need not have to attack eachother. they have been living >>> together in this country since last 1000 years. >>> but i sincerely feel that both should attack sickulars like arundhati >>> roy, >>> tista, left parties and many more, >>> throw them out of this country (along with gandhian and nehruvian models >>> of >>> secularism) >>> without which true secularism will not be restored >>> vedavati >>> >>> >>> --- On Wed, 6/5/09, yasir ~يا سر wrote: >>> >>> >>> From: yasir ~يا سر >>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims >>> To: "Sarai Reader-list" >>> Date: Wednesday, 6 May, 2009, 11:08 PM >>> >>> >>> dear vedavati >>> >>> and why would muslims attack hindus in any given context, even  IF they >>> chose to do so whether on the list or off, in the absence of the >>> sickulars >>> doing so? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 4:05 PM, Vedavati Jogi >>> wrote: >>> >>>> what you have written is partially correct. >>>> muslims need not have to attack 'so called' hindus because that job is >>>> done >>>> by 'sickulars' on readers-list. >>>> >>>> vedavati >>>> >>>> --- On Wed, 6/5/09, Jeebesh wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> From: Jeebesh >>>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims >>>> To: "Sarai Reader-list" >>>> Date: Wednesday, 6 May, 2009, 12:29 AM >>>> >>>> >>>> dear All, >>>> >>>> I do not understand how constantly the list members keep attacking the >>>> same entity called muslims and indian muslims. Well all attackers call >>>> themselves hindus. The viscousness of the attacks baffles me. If they >>>> had power and weapons they can do serious damage. >>>> >>>> On the other hand, i have not seen any person with so called "muslim >>>> name" attack a Hindu or Hinduism, on this list.  So why does so called >>>> Hindus keep attacking muslims in this list. What kind of blood lust is >>>> this? >>>> >>>> Now days Hinduism is a fairly celebrated religion and thousands of >>>> publications and places of worship is a sure sign of that. Yet a weird >>>> sense of injured self seem to have justified all kind of rabble rousing. >>>> >>>> Being cautious of authoritarian organization is one thing, but to keep >>>> on attacking a group of people is appalling. >>>> >>>> warmly >>>> jeebesh >>>> >>>> >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: >>>> >>>> >>>>      Own a website.Get an unlimited package.Pay next to nothing.*Go to >>>> http://in.business.yahoo.com/ >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: >>>> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe >>> in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >>> >>>      Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter >>> http://beta.cricket.yahoo.com >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe >>> in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Thu May 7 18:08:37 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Thu, 7 May 2009 05:38:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] "Indian Muslims: Moderation And Extremism" (from INDIAN MUSLIMS.IN) Message-ID: <581731.23090.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Article can be accessed at   http://indianmuslims.in/indian-muslims-moderation-extremism/     From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Thu May 7 18:19:11 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Thu, 7 May 2009 05:49:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] "Response To A Pakistani View Of Indian Muslims" (from INDIAN MUSLIMS.IN) Message-ID: <793079.28035.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Article can be accessed at:   http://indianmuslims.in/pakistan-indian-muslims/     From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Thu May 7 18:03:40 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Thu, 7 May 2009 05:33:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] "Whom Should Muslims Vote?" (from INDIAN MUSLIMS.IN) Message-ID: <926119.75206.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com>   Article can be accessed at http://indianmuslims.in/whom-should-muslims-vote/       From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Thu May 7 19:24:01 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Thu, 7 May 2009 19:24:01 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of ... In-Reply-To: References: <000801c9cf02$9e0790f0$0201a8c0@limo> Message-ID: Dear Javed ji Kabir has been made a joke of even now by Kabirpanthis, those who are supposed to follow him. The reason is that Kabir believed in deconstructing institutions (particularly religious ones), while Kabirpanthis have done the exact opposite of that, by creating a religion in his name. What a shame!! As far as the discussion is concerned, our right wing people have beaten George Bush when it comes to propaganda. He only managed it for less than 8 years; they have managed it for almost 60 years and even succeeded to get substantial votes for Hindu Rashtra. Congrats to them for that! Regards Rakesh From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Thu May 7 19:23:51 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Thu, 7 May 2009 19:23:51 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: siliguri Message-ID: <489057.44274.qm@web94703.mail.in2.yahoo.com>   Off course I'm yet to verify whether these people are from Gorkha regiment. They were wearing white shirts and not Uniform. There are members of off course the Gorkha Jana Mukti Morcha, a seperatist group, these people could be it's members, and this body of late has been using over-riding powers than the constitutional setup. But of using violent force I know not. The man injured was of Police and there is something to do with him in this hecckling. The crux of the matter is domination whether present or ex-army man or not is not the question. On the Voting eve I saw able bodied men with semi-automated weapons and black wiel over their heads so many of them you may call them Commando's, but to me any heavy display of arms in public is bad. In this sense I'd like to differ from many of my brothers who believe you and the nation is one, you and these fearful people should be in harmony, because I am a stake holder I have a spirit and society means not Government and it's people. My concern is by giving power, one can not cure the spirit. Indeed two things I found funny: a> That people collectively as well as Individually, I'd draw from neo-classical ideology because individual comes to cost-bearing, can not help it, and collectiveness comes to benefit; have grown so submersive and unconscious of their rights and thus rights of their near and dear ones. When two male officers arrest a woman no-one intervenes. Who wants to be framed a terrorist, NOT MANY! b> These brave Commando's, with due respect at their valour,physique and skills, I saw them today directing the mob from a distance by sign language. They too are afraid to die! Inspite of having heavy weaponry! These guys who act as mere agents know the state means only a piece of terrirory sans it's people and thus licensed and immune, they proceed to vent their animal spirits.. This is what we call is maintaining spirits of army?  Off course these are brave people, who are willing to lay their lives on their own interests, be it RAW or ISI both sohould be respected. Or not, there should be endless battle and Violence, and repress feelings of progress. May be individuals want to fragment India was not possible, nor Soviet, nor Pakistan nor US. Hatred is more powerful than harmony and progress, or is it because there is no material or natural backing, but barriers purpoted to aggravate violence? ----- Forwarded Message ---- From: yasir ~يا سر To: Sarai Reader-list Sent: Wednesday, 6 May, 2009 10:03:31 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] siliguri ok. the title is : * Lathi Charge in Siliguri against Indian Gorkha Regiment by West Bengal Police* how can the police beat up the Indian Gorkha Regiment ??* *isn't it more common the other way round. you cant mess with the army?* * On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 3:23 PM, subhrodip sengupta wrote: > What else than the police seeking revenge, and using muscle power and human > right violation as tools to establish their supremacy! > >  ------------------------------ > *From:* yasir ~يا سر > *To:* sarai list > *Sent:* Tuesday, 5 May, 2009 4:05:25 PM > *Subject:* [Reader-list] siliguri > > so what is going on here?  i dont understand the title. best. > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvaCr1lPD6k > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > ------------------------------ > Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter now! > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Now surf faster and smarter ! Check out the new Firefox 3 - Yahoo! Edition http://downloads.yahoo.com/in/firefox/?fr=om_email_firefox From monica at sarai.net Thu May 7 19:25:30 2009 From: monica at sarai.net (Monica Narula) Date: Thu, 7 May 2009 19:25:30 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] List Maintenance Message-ID: Dear all The list is being treated by some people as a place to flame, make ad hominem remarks and write incredibly limited-horizon material. The list will have to shut down for a week for list-maintenance. When it activates again, please try and make an effort at remembering that this is a list to talk about a wide range of things, and not merely sectarian identity formation, played out in sectarian terms best List admin. Monica Narula Raqs Media Collective Sarai-CSDS www.raqsmediacollective.net www.sarai.net From jeebesh at sarai.net Thu May 7 19:30:16 2009 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh) Date: Thu, 7 May 2009 19:30:16 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Olive Ridley Turtles Message-ID: <2EFF01F6-A4B6-43E7-8A55-F7AA84D97B27@sarai.net> From Greenpeace. I just heard from Greenpeace today explaining why they have to stop and catch their breath in the campaign to save endangered Olive Ridley Turtles from the Tatas’ destructive port in Dhamra. They’ve got a video that packs in all the blood, sweat and tears that 115,000 Tata customers like myself have put into this campaign for over a year. I’m not telling you what I think of this video, I just want you to watch it for yourself. Just click here to take a look. shabnam hashmi. PS:Oh, we’re also planning to make this the Most Viewed video on YouTube India today, before midnight, so Mr. Ratan Tata knows how many of his own customers have watched it! That will only happen if you view it too. From c.anupam at gmail.com Thu May 7 19:34:20 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Thu, 7 May 2009 19:34:20 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] "Indian Muslims: Moderation And Extremism" (from INDIAN MUSLIMS.IN) In-Reply-To: <581731.23090.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <581731.23090.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <341380d00905070704je9c393eg8b29d920692eed5c@mail.gmail.com> *Hear the new voices* Aijaz Ilmi Thu, May 7 02:51 AM Instead of convulsing purposelessly, as it has done on numerous occasions in the past, the Indian Muslim community is slowly but surely undergoing a subtle transformation. Sensing the mood of the community, even the religious leaders — the Ulemas — are speaking the language of constitutionalism. Dar-ul Ifta, the fatwa-giving arm of Deoband's Dar-ul Uloom spoke of the value of "neutral" voting in the elections. The spokesperson said that Indian Muslims must vote not on religious lines but as citizens of a secular democracy. No directive to influence the voter towards any particular party could be seen in their statement: "Please vote for an individual or party that has interests of India and the Muslims too." Indeed, clearly linking the interest of Indian Muslims with the interests of India as a whole is a welcome signal, signifying inclusive secular guidance for India's minorities. Steeped in a volatile mix of anger and destitution, subject to being "suspect" for far too long, Indian Muslim communities are finally showing signs of fighting back against preconceived prejudices. When respected Ulemas start to speak out about secular traditions and democratic structures, a strategic shift based on community feedback is apparent. Whether this wave of positivity will turn into a tsunami of inter-cultural bonding is yet to be assessed. The unceremonious dumping of Ajmal Kasab's lawyer Abbas Kazmi by many community institutions — such as the Islam Gymkhana in Bombay — is best be read as another signal from the community to distance itself from terror. The earlier statement denouncing him from the local Shi'a council ("Defending a terrorist is also against the essence and teaching of Islam") should be seen as a precursor to the avalanche of protest that will continue to follow Kazmi. Those of liberal views might justifiably baulk: the Constitution of our country, and its time-tested judicial system, insist on presenting a fair defence for all accused; but it nevertheless is the case that the community is making a sincere effort to de-link itself from the misguided brand of Islam that the Taliban and the Indian Mujahideen propagate. These are signals that need to be read, especially by the young, the liberal, opinion-makers and the educated among Indian Muslims. They must internalise what these signals mean and assert themselves further in the country's fight against all forces of terror and deprivation. Since the shilanyas and Babri Masjid issue culminated in large-scale riots post-demolition, India's Muslims have languished in a cocoon of insecurity. Afraid of being targeted repeatedly, of having their patriotism questioned, they sulked in silence, feeling let down by their own political and religious leadership. In the last five years, post-NDA, concerns have shifted; the spotlight now is on their own status, both economic and educational. Higher school enrolment in the last five years, by almost six to eight per cent, both at primary and secondary levels, is suggestive. It means there's a crying need to reach out by establishing a large number of schools and vocational institutes — and, indeed, the provision of credit facilities to bring them out of their self-made cocoon. A young graduate from AMU said recently: "Do not look at the Muslims as a religious minority but as a component of the deprived majority." After 60 years, the debate is at last changing: security, development and education is the new mantra. Political rabble-rousers might end up as political rubble unless they address these basic concerns. The successful Kerala model of education, which consists of a large number of institutes of higher learning open to all sections of society, must be replicated in North India. Such institutions will ensure both greater intermingling and the provision of quality education to the needier sections of society. In fact, in Kerala, both the Nair education society and Indian Union Muslim League-supported minority trusts compete to endow the greater number of schools. Given that Indian Muslims are employed in disproportionately large numbers as artisans and in running small establishments, the global recession has added a greater sense of urgency to their future. The desire to be educated and be counted should be complemented by the haves in the community. Recent ads in the media — apparently from the BSP in East Delhi — exhorting Muslims to vote for "revenge" over the Gujarat riots are seen as likely to backfire, and indeed as being in bad taste. A party that swears by the empowerment of the deprived sections of society would do well to set up centres of learning rather than promise revenge. The Muslims of the country are mature enough to understand that it is only in an inclusive, secular country like India that a Yusuf Khan can succeed as Dilip Kumar and a Dileep Kumar can succeed as Allah Rakha Rahman. Are India's political parties listening to the new voices within the community? The writer is chairman of the editorial board at the Kanpur-based Urdu newspaper 'Daily Siyasat Jadid' On 5/7/09, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > Article can be accessed at > > http://indianmuslims.in/indian-muslims-moderation-extremism/ > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From jeebesh at sarai.net Thu May 7 19:37:15 2009 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh) Date: Thu, 7 May 2009 19:37:15 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Olive Ridley Turtles In-Reply-To: <2EFF01F6-A4B6-43E7-8A55-F7AA84D97B27@sarai.net> References: <2EFF01F6-A4B6-43E7-8A55-F7AA84D97B27@sarai.net> Message-ID: <39968AEE-CD45-412A-9405-3788761957C4@sarai.net> http://greenpeace.in/turtle/the-video2-that-took-115000 On 07-May-09, at 7:30 PM, Jeebesh wrote: > From Greenpeace. > > I just heard from Greenpeace today explaining why they have to stop > and catch their breath in the campaign to save endangered Olive Ridley > Turtles from the Tatas’ destructive port in Dhamra. > > They’ve got a video that packs in all the blood, sweat and tears that > 115,000 Tata customers like myself have put into this campaign for > over a year. > > I’m not telling you what I think of this video, I just want you to > watch it for yourself. > > Just click here to take a look. > > > shabnam hashmi. > > > PS:Oh, we’re also planning to make this the Most Viewed video on > YouTube India today, before midnight, so Mr. Ratan Tata knows how many > of his own customers have watched it! That will only happen if you > view it too. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From indersalim at gmail.com Thu May 7 19:39:48 2009 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Thu, 7 May 2009 19:39:48 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims In-Reply-To: <726971.26113.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <47e122a70905060435o731921beo15e52e2185c2617f@mail.gmail.com> <726971.26113.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70905070709v877365el5a51924fa4b0e85d@mail.gmail.com> Dear Kshmendra I am not advocate, so cant follow the point endlessly, these are inferences from your previous mails Still, all marks to those who detest Modi for his role in Gujarat Riots. and i guess you are one of them. i quote you again A question I have (asked on this List too) "What does sending Modi back into office say about the people of Gujarat? Why did they do it?". I believe the answer to that question of importance. No one cares to address that. I do not have the intelligence/knowledge to do it. Damning Modi is easily done but that does not answer the question. Now dear Kshmendra, i see it as an answer itself, because if people of Gujarat bring Modi back again to power exonerates him from the crimes committed during . this is level one. the other level is that people voting a particular person does not mean that she/he is clean. Mrs. Indira Gandhi never deserved to become Prime Minister of India, in the first place, but people voted her to power, and when time arrived, she commited crimes never seen before, she imposed emergency, encouraged corruption and gave birth to first terrorist movement in India in Punjab. so Modi and people of Gujarat are not one, they are two, always, even now when people vote him, there are voices that if PM canditate was Modi instead of Advani BHP might increase its tally of seats by 25-30 , but unfortunately for BJP Advani is still around so they may have to sit in the opposition yet again, now how to think about that ? with love and regards is On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 4:05 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Inder > > Thank you for responding. > > Now please tell me what is there in my writing which you have so kindly > reproduced that led your telling me that I had " ... instantly clubbed > development of Gujarat with Modi." > > On the contrary I had expressed (in my mail to Jeebesh) agreement with the > following words of  Tridip Suhrd: > > """"" If evil ever pretended to be good in the guise of  development, Sanjay > and Modi are the siblings of modernity that we can  do without. """""" > Is there any ambiguity in these words with which I agreed. > > Dear Inder, I have had this problem with you in the past also, and I had > repeatedly requested you then and I am again requesting you ...... please do > not attribute to me what I have not said. > > Kshmendra > > --- On Wed, 5/6/09, Inder Salim wrote: > > From: Inder Salim > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims > To: "reader-list" > Date: Wednesday, May 6, 2009, 5:05 PM > > Kshmenda to Jeebesh : > > That is the reason why I find too starkly prejudicial TS's statement > about Modi """" Here is a man incapable of care and > nurturance > reincarnating himself in, and as, an act of violence."""" > > No one is incapable of 'care and nurturance'. No one is evil > incarnate. Such monsterisation is as ill-advised as deification. It > serves as an easy answer but is far from any completeness of > understanding of a person. > > Such a statement is also disrespectful and dismissive about Gujarat > and it's people who TS identifies so closely with as is evident in the > essay "In Defeat, Let Us Reclaim Our Selves" (Essay 2) > > A question I have (asked on this List too) "What does sending Modi > back into office say about the people of Gujarat? Why did they do > it?". I believe the answer to that question of importance. No one > cares to address that. I do not have the intelligence/knowledge to do > it. Damning Modi is easily done but that does not answer the question. > > > > > > > On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 4:16 PM, Kshmendra Kaul > wrote: >> Dear Inder >> >> Request you to answer a simple question before I address the other points > in >> your mail. Please do honour this request. >> >> Where have I (as put by you) >> >>  """""instantly clubbed development of Gujarat > with Modi."""""" >> >> Will be grateful for your response evidencing that statement attributed to >> me. >> >> Not even in my dreams would I find any excuse (including any economic >> development) that would justify or make bearable the person of Modi for > me. >> >> Kshmendra >> >> >> >> --- On Wed, 5/6/09, Inder Salim wrote: >> >> From: Inder Salim >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims >> To: "reader-list" >> Date: Wednesday, May 6, 2009, 12:07 AM >> >> Dear Kshmendra, >> I am not using this an opportunity to point out this fact, but it >> struck me earlier as well..... when you instantly clubbed development >> of Gujarat with Modi. >> >> I agree that ‘evil’ cant be visualized just in the face of one >> bearded man,........... but we must not forget how Germany progressed >> under HItler as well. So what is Development? Imagine if the boys who >> killed Aman Kachroo were toppers, would you forgive them? >> >> I guess no. We have to ask many questions to ourselves, before we >> ask others. here muslims, poor muslims .who never voted for Partition, >> never knew even about what it was all aboutt, and never know even why >> they are called pakistanis here in India, and never even know why they >> are sometimes unwittingly following a green colour with crecent and >> star, never know even that it has nothing to do with Islam....... >> >> The issue of Flag and Indian Muslims is as old one. We all know, how >> Kashmiris wittingly vent their anger against Indian occupation by >> identifying themselves with this flag. It has all to do with >> partition related pending issues.... whether u like it not, Pakistan >> is a reality, even during the current crises. And pakistan is not only >> green, crescent and star , but something more like India is not >> tricolour only >> >> It is here, your intellect falls on banana peels, because you have >> zero tolerance against something called Nation State. >> >> you feel, nothing should rip this sacred word, not even at the level >> of rhetoric...not even if Plague like thing fills the air we breath. >> >> i am Indian , but I dont know who qualifies as a true Indian in the >> first place.......where are those translations which we can store in a >> locker room, and exhibit as tags on our foreheads to describe our >> loyaty to the Nation as and when a so called Hindu Indian demands from >> us... why so >> >> Meanwhile, like Narender Modi i too think you have a brilliant mind, a >> talent to grasp the content of mails quickly and reflect back with >> speed, but alas, ....... >> >> >> with love and regards >> inder salim >> >> I quote Kshmendra from you other brilliant response to Jebeesh forward >> of Tridip Suhrud >> >> A hundred years from today will anyone other than Gandhi (MK) belong >> to history? I see no one who will be anything more than italicised >> footnotes in very small print. >> >> again, Mr. Kshmendra, u are wrong, which does not mean that i am right >> >> is >> >> >> >> On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 5:19 PM, Kshmendra Kaul > >> wrote: >>> >>> QUOTE: >>> >>> It also carried drawings of two white and black flags, the former > being >> the main flag of Holy Prophet Muhammad (Peace be Upon Him) and the latter >> his >> military standard. Even now, black-turbaned TNSM members carry the small >> white >> and black flags as they walk ahead of Sufi Mohammad. ...... UNQUOTE >>> >>> This quote is from an article on Maulana Sufi Mohammad written by >> Rahimullah Yusufzai. >>> http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=175825 >>> >>> No green flag. No crescent and star on it. >>> >>> The green flag with the crescent and star on it which is used by > Indian >> Muslims has often caused misunderstandings. >>> >>> One recent example has been Simi Garewal talking about Pakistani Flags >> being flown by Indian Muslims. She apologised later for having mistaken > the >> Islamic Flag of the Indian Muslims for the Pakistani Flag. >>> >>> The close resemblance between the 2 flags confused even >> Anupam Chakravartty, who inspite of video coverage from Times Now showing > it >> to >> be a Pakistani Flag, insisted that what was flown in Assam with " > sickle >> (sic) and star on green background  is an islamic symbol" >>> http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2009-April/018755.html >>> >>> In an earlier mail I had commented: >>> >>> """""" If this is factual, then the > question >> arises for the Indian Muslims that should they be thinking about using the >> Islamic Flag without the Crescent and Star so that it does not appear to > be >> close to being the flag of Pakistan? """""" >>> http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2008-December/017016.html >>> >>> Just thinking aloud >>> >>> Kshmendra >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ______________________________ > ___________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: > >> >> >> >> -- >> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe >> in >> the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/ >> >> > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Thu May 7 19:49:42 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Thu, 7 May 2009 07:19:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims In-Reply-To: <341380d00905060756g25fb72fbpf2c821808ca6a809@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <364652.11961.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Anupam   You foist on me an identity crisis. You start of by addressing me by my name and towards the end call me Chanchal. But you are not alone in such abuse. Inder elsewhere  compared me with Modi. (Please treat this as a very lighthearted comment).   Anupam one cannot impose or be selective in wishing what topics are discussed on this List or to what extent. Only Moderator intervention can ensure that.   Any topic or issue on which there is public discourse can find it's way in this public space too.   Let me tell you in all sincerity (if you can trust such a declaration by me) that I do understand the spirit of what you have stated. But, I think you are being unreasonable.   Since we easily lose perspective of where a particulat thread has started, I was not talking about Indian Muslims but the Islamic Flag used by Indian Muslims. In retrospect, I could have said "Islamic Flag used by SOME Indian Muslims". That would have been an idiotically unneccesary distinction to stress upon but perhaps that is what I should have done. One learns.   But, if someone chooses to divert a topic to a direction of their own choosing, they will use any excuse. That is exactly what happened by Javed asking me "Who is an Indian Muslim?"   Hell my friend (not you AC) that might be a topic of interest to you but here I am talking about the Islam Flag used by Indian Muslims AND the close resemblance it bears to the Pakistani Flag AND the misunderstandings it causes. Aisa Hota Hai (It happens)   Again the Assam Bodo-Muslim / Pakistani Flag topic was of interest to you AC and you picked on that just because I said that even AC made a mistake over the Flag dictinctions. In your case I benefitted from your very interesting comments on that particular issue.   This issue of "Who Indian Muslim, What Indian Muslim, Why Indian Muslim" might provide intellectual fodder for some but that Identity Type is one which is in the public space of discourse.   I posted 3 article from a Web forum, guess what it is called - INDIAN MUSLIMS. All 3 article dealt with issues concerning guess who - INDIAN MUSLIMS. Guess who has authored them - INDIAN MUSLIMS.   I do agree that one cannot reduce every issue that might be unique in its dimensions (even though it might arise from one common Identity Type) to being applicable as a comment about everyone belonging to that Identity Type. But at the same time it would idiotic to dismiss that certain references (even as every single individual in that Identity Type  might not subscribe to it) can be mentioned as a generalisation about that Identity Type.   If I were to say "For centuries now Hindus have allowed or been exploited by the most degraded and inhuman precepts to be propagated and practiced in the name of a presumed Dharmshastra called Manu Smriti", it would be idiotic for anyone to respond with "Who Hindu, What Hindu, Why Hindu, answer that before we tell you whether we agree with you or not"   Khair, Aisa Hota Hai (It happens). It happens when there is no intent to seriously think over an issue but instead subvert.   As I told you earlier I do understand the spirit of what you have stated. I have no strong disagreement with the rest of your mail, though my attitude is different from yours regarding " Do you think we, as a nation, are ready to discuss religion ....." AND "I do not have any right to express criticism about a religion, which I do not belong to."   I will not dwell on those.   Kshmendra --- On Wed, 5/6/09, anupam chakravartty wrote: From: anupam chakravartty Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims To: "sarai list" Date: Wednesday, May 6, 2009, 8:26 PM Dear Kshmendra, I have just one problem when such issues are being raised. Why are we discussing Indian Muslims as a whole because a relief camp in some corner of this country facing an ethnic conflict? Do you think we, as a nation, are ready to discuss religion when it is in such a fragile state having clowns as leaders? Hardening of religious identities are taking precedence over the basic amenities that a person, a human being, deserves in this country. My sole objective is to dispel this hardening of our religious identities. And obviously, keeping in mind the hardening of Hindu identity, which is scattered worries me more. I feel in process of hardening Hindu identity it would loose its very essence, its intangible, meditative nature, which one can experience without even going to a temple. I am equally scared of the hardening of Muslim identity in the country. However, I am a Hindu by birth, so I shall only be criticizing, questioning my faith. I do not have any right to express criticism about a religion, which I do not belong to. In that way, I feel I can deride this majoritarian tendency of some power hungry individuals to dominate the religion and mould its identity in such a way that it can allow only chosen few things to grow. When several studies are done to explore this religion, find out finer aspects where this religion gets fused with local forms of worship, there are another set of people trying to shape up a pan-Indian identity of this religion by raising issues about an ancient mosque and grandiose plan to make a temple and turn it into a tourist spot. Next thing I will know is that Ram is tall muscular DC comic like warrior forgetting the effeminate imagery of Ram the compassionate one, Tulsidas’ Ram, or Mahatma Gandhi’s Ram. Ram, who would not have built a temple by destroying another’s place of worship. Chanchal, don’t you think this is worse than the forced conversions? Ironically, a generalised statement: “we do not have food to eat” is difficult to assert about a nation following the logical and statistical problems that it may create, But I am surprised that we are comfortable in the blame game of who caused the first religious strife and asserting generalised opinions about specific community. Call me a communist, sickular, whatever you want. The struggle is not about religion; it’s about being territorial behaving like canines. Who gets to own more land irrespective of what colour your flag is. Anupam From c.anupam at gmail.com Thu May 7 19:58:14 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Thu, 7 May 2009 19:58:14 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims In-Reply-To: <364652.11961.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <341380d00905060756g25fb72fbpf2c821808ca6a809@mail.gmail.com> <364652.11961.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <341380d00905070728hfdf4e1brf22f4ad979b6ce74@mail.gmail.com> dear kshmendra, i would not have taken chanchal's name in the mail if it were your comments. in case if there is any miscommunication on my part, i apologise. but yes that mail was written in a fit of rage and frustration. and yes i have every right to say which topic should be discussed in this reader's list as i am a reader. i welcome moderator's intervention. besides that i have nothing much to say. i said what i could what i am capable of. enough has been said. bipin went overboard saying things against safdar hashmi, which was very very unfortunate. i never thought someone could stoop to such levels. so you can at least forgive for making any intentional/unintentional attack on you. i guess you can. with regards and apologies anupam On 5/7/09, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > Dear Anupam > > You foist on me an identity crisis. You start of by addressing me by my > name and towards the end call me Chanchal. But you are not alone in such > abuse. Inder elsewhere compared me with Modi. (Please treat this as a very > lighthearted comment). > > Anupam one cannot impose or be selective in wishing what topics > are discussed on this List or to what extent. Only Moderator intervention > can ensure that. > > Any topic or issue on which there is public discourse can find it's way in > this public space too. > > Let me tell you in all sincerity (if you can trust such a declaration by > me) that I do understand the spirit of what you have stated. But, I think > you are being unreasonable. > > Since we easily lose perspective of where a particulat thread has started, > I was not talking about Indian Muslims but the Islamic Flag used by Indian > Muslims. In retrospect, I could have said "Islamic Flag used by SOME Indian > Muslims". That would have been an idiotically unneccesary distinction to > stress upon but perhaps that is what I should have done. One learns. > > But, if someone chooses to divert a topic to a direction of their own > choosing, they will use any excuse. That is exactly what happened by Javed > asking me "Who is an Indian Muslim?" > > Hell my friend (not you AC) that might be a topic of interest to you but > here I am talking about the Islam Flag used by Indian Muslims AND the close > resemblance it bears to the Pakistani Flag AND the misunderstandings it > causes. Aisa Hota Hai (It happens) > > Again the Assam Bodo-Muslim / Pakistani Flag topic was of interest to you > AC and you picked on that just because I said that even AC made a mistake > over the Flag dictinctions. In your case I benefitted from your very > interesting comments on that particular issue. > > This issue of "Who Indian Muslim, What Indian Muslim, Why Indian Muslim" > might provide intellectual fodder for some but that Identity Type is one > which is in the public space of discourse. > > I posted 3 article from a Web forum, guess what it is called - INDIAN > MUSLIMS. All 3 article dealt with issues concerning guess who - INDIAN > MUSLIMS. Guess who has authored them - INDIAN MUSLIMS. > > I do agree that one cannot reduce every issue that might be unique in its > dimensions (even though it might arise from one common Identity Type) to > being applicable as a comment about everyone belonging to that Identity > Type. But at the same time it would idiotic to dismiss that certain > references (even as every single individual in that Identity Type might not > subscribe to it) can be mentioned as a generalisation about that Identity > Type. > > If I were to say "For centuries now Hindus have allowed or been exploited > by the most degraded and inhuman precepts to be propagated and practiced in > the name of a presumed Dharmshastra called Manu Smriti", it would be idiotic > for anyone to respond with "Who Hindu, What Hindu, Why Hindu, answer that > before we tell you whether we agree with you or not" > > Khair, Aisa Hota Hai (It happens). It happens when there is no intent to > seriously think over an issue but instead subvert. > > As I told you earlier I do understand the spirit of what you have stated. I > have no strong disagreement with the rest of your mail, though my attitude > is different from yours regarding " Do you think we, as a nation, are ready > to discuss religion ....." AND "I do not have any right to express criticism > about a religion, which I do not belong to." > > I will not dwell on those. > > Kshmendra > > > --- On *Wed, 5/6/09, anupam chakravartty * wrote: > > > From: anupam chakravartty > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims > To: "sarai list" > Date: Wednesday, May 6, 2009, 8:26 PM > > Dear Kshmendra, > > > > I have just one problem when such issues are being raised. Why are we > discussing Indian Muslims as a whole because a relief camp in some corner of > this country facing an ethnic conflict? Do you think we, as a nation, are > ready to discuss religion when it is in such a fragile state having clowns > as leaders? Hardening of religious identities are taking precedence over the > basic amenities that a person, a human being, deserves in this country. My > sole objective is to dispel this hardening of our religious identities. And > obviously, keeping in mind the hardening of Hindu identity, which is > scattered worries me more. I feel in process of hardening Hindu identity it > would loose its very essence, its intangible, meditative nature, which one > can experience without even going to a temple. I am equally scared of the > hardening of Muslim identity in the country. > > > > However, I am a Hindu by birth, so I shall only be criticizing, questioning > my faith. I do not have any right to express criticism about a religion, > which I do not belong to. In that way, I feel I can deride this majoritarian > tendency of some power hungry individuals to dominate the religion and mould > its identity in such a way that it can allow only chosen few things to grow. > When several studies are done to explore this religion, find out finer > aspects where this religion gets fused with local forms of worship, there > are another set of people trying to shape up a pan-Indian identity of this > religion by raising issues about an ancient mosque and grandiose plan to > make a temple and turn it into a tourist spot. Next thing I will know is > that Ram is tall muscular DC comic like warrior forgetting the effeminate > imagery of Ram the compassionate one, Tulsidas’ Ram, or Mahatma Gandhi’s > Ram. Ram, who would not have built a temple by destroying another’s place of > worship. Chanchal, don’t you think this is worse than the forced > conversions? > > > > Ironically, a generalised statement: “we do not have food to eat” is > difficult to assert about a nation following the logical and statistical > problems that it may create, But I am surprised that we are comfortable in > the blame game of who caused the first religious strife and asserting > generalised opinions about specific community. Call me a communist, > sickular, whatever you want. The struggle is not about religion; it’s about > being territorial behaving like canines. Who gets to own more land > irrespective of what colour your flag is. > > > Anupam > > > From indersalim at gmail.com Thu May 7 20:02:41 2009 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Thu, 7 May 2009 20:02:41 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] a blog by Prof of Obscenity Message-ID: <47e122a70905070732y6358d1f3u7ba48dc45e413244@mail.gmail.com> Dear all please press to see http://queer-way-art.blogspot.com/?zx=62e53575fddec8d2 blog by Prof. Shivji Paniker , ( the professor of obscenity, title given to him Gujarati lovers of Modi ) To remind, Mr. Shivji took a stand in favour of an art student Mr. ChandraMohan who was attacked by goons and arrested by Police in MS University Baroda, simply for a painting. Thus Modi is the first CM in India who earned the honour of sealing Archives of Art Faculty, and created an atmosphere of insecurity for other students who are supposed to explore CREATIVITY. Alas love is -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From yasir.media at gmail.com Thu May 7 22:19:14 2009 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?windows-1256?B?eWFzaXIgfu3HINPR?=) Date: Thu, 7 May 2009 21:49:14 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: siliguri In-Reply-To: <489057.44274.qm@web94703.mail.in2.yahoo.com> References: <489057.44274.qm@web94703.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5af37bb0905070949h38a1ff10m10f4eb6758a92e1f@mail.gmail.com> who is the real enemy ? On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 6:53 PM, subhrodip sengupta wrote: > > > Off course I'm yet to verify whether these people are from Gorkha regiment. They were wearing white shirts and not Uniform. There are members of off course the Gorkha Jana Mukti Morcha, a seperatist group, these people could be it's members, and this body of late has been using over-riding powers than the constitutional setup. But of using violent force I know not. The man injured was of Police and there is something to do with him in this hecckling. The crux of the matter is domination whether present or ex-army man or not is not the question. On the Voting eve I saw able bodied men with semi-automated weapons and black wiel over their heads so many of them you may call them Commando's, but to me any heavy display of arms in public is bad. In this sense I'd like to differ from many of my brothers who believe you and the nation is one, you and these fearful people should be in harmony, because I am a stake holder I have a spirit and society means not >  Government and it's people. My concern is by giving power, one can not cure the spirit. Indeed two things I found funny: > a> That people collectively as well as Individually, I'd draw from neo-classical ideology because individual comes to cost-bearing, can not help it, and collectiveness comes to benefit; have grown so submersive and unconscious of their rights and thus rights of their near and dear ones. When two male officers arrest a woman no-one intervenes. Who wants to be framed a terrorist, NOT MANY! > b> These brave Commando's, with due respect at their valour,physique and skills, I saw them today directing the mob from a distance by sign language. They too are afraid to die! Inspite of having heavy weaponry! > These guys who act as mere agents know the state means only a piece of terrirory sans it's people and thus licensed and immune, they proceed to vent their animal spirits.. This is what we call is maintaining spirits of army? > > > >  Off course these are brave people, who are willing to lay their lives on their own interests, be it RAW or ISI both sohould be respected. Or not, there should be endless battle and Violence, and repress feelings of progress. May be individuals want to fragment India was not possible, nor Soviet, nor Pakistan nor US. Hatred is more powerful than harmony and progress, or is it because there is no material or natural backing, but barriers purpoted to aggravate violence? > > ----- Forwarded Message ---- > From: yasir ~يا سر > To: Sarai Reader-list > Sent: Wednesday, 6 May, 2009 10:03:31 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] siliguri > > ok. > the title is : > * > Lathi Charge in Siliguri against Indian Gorkha Regiment by West Bengal > Police* > > how can the police beat up the Indian Gorkha Regiment ??* > *isn't it more common the other way round. you cant mess with the army?* > > * > > On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 3:23 PM, subhrodip sengupta > wrote: > > > What else than the police seeking revenge, and using muscle power and human > > right violation as tools to establish their supremacy! > > > >  ------------------------------ > > *From:* yasir ~يا سر > > *To:* sarai list > > *Sent:* Tuesday, 5 May, 2009 4:05:25 PM > > *Subject:* [Reader-list] siliguri > > > > so what is going on here?  i dont understand the title. best. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvaCr1lPD6k > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > ------------------------------ > > Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter now! > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > >      Now surf faster and smarter ! Check out the new Firefox 3 - Yahoo! Edition http://downloads.yahoo.com/in/firefox/?fr=om_email_firefox > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From indersalim at gmail.com Thu May 7 22:29:45 2009 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Thu, 7 May 2009 22:29:45 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: siliguri In-Reply-To: <5af37bb0905070949h38a1ff10m10f4eb6758a92e1f@mail.gmail.com> References: <489057.44274.qm@web94703.mail.in2.yahoo.com> <5af37bb0905070949h38a1ff10m10f4eb6758a92e1f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70905070959r3a69ee68qda3f2d308d6c0382@mail.gmail.com> often it is very close to the self On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 10:19 PM, yasir ~يا سر wrote: > who is the real enemy ? > > > On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 6:53 PM, subhrodip sengupta > wrote: >> >> >> Off course I'm yet to verify whether these people are from Gorkha regiment. They were wearing white shirts and not Uniform. There are members of off course the Gorkha Jana Mukti Morcha, a seperatist group, these people could be it's members, and this body of late has been using over-riding powers than the constitutional setup. But of using violent force I know not. The man injured was of Police and there is something to do with him in this hecckling. The crux of the matter is domination whether present or ex-army man or not is not the question. On the Voting eve I saw able bodied men with semi-automated weapons and black wiel over their heads so many of them you may call them Commando's, but to me any heavy display of arms in public is bad. In this sense I'd like to differ from many of my brothers who believe you and the nation is one, you and these fearful people should be in harmony, because I am a stake holder I have a spirit and society means not >>  Government and it's people. My concern is by giving power, one can not cure the spirit. Indeed two things I found funny: >> a> That people collectively as well as Individually, I'd draw from neo-classical ideology because individual comes to cost-bearing, can not help it, and collectiveness comes to benefit; have grown so submersive and unconscious of their rights and thus rights of their near and dear ones. When two male officers arrest a woman no-one intervenes. Who wants to be framed a terrorist, NOT MANY! >> b> These brave Commando's, with due respect at their valour,physique and skills, I saw them today directing the mob from a distance by sign language. They too are afraid to die! Inspite of having heavy weaponry! >> These guys who act as mere agents know the state means only a piece of terrirory sans it's people and thus licensed and immune, they proceed to vent their animal spirits.. This is what we call is maintaining spirits of army? >> >> >> >>  Off course these are brave people, who are willing to lay their lives on their own interests, be it RAW or ISI both sohould be respected. Or not, there should be endless battle and Violence, and repress feelings of progress. May be individuals want to fragment India was not possible, nor Soviet, nor Pakistan nor US. Hatred is more powerful than harmony and progress, or is it because there is no material or natural backing, but barriers purpoted to aggravate violence? >> >> ----- Forwarded Message ---- >> From: yasir ~يا سر >> To: Sarai Reader-list >> Sent: Wednesday, 6 May, 2009 10:03:31 PM >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] siliguri >> >> ok. >> the title is : >> * >> Lathi Charge in Siliguri against Indian Gorkha Regiment by West Bengal >> Police* >> >> how can the police beat up the Indian Gorkha Regiment ??* >> *isn't it more common the other way round. you cant mess with the army?* >> >> * >> >> On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 3:23 PM, subhrodip sengupta > > wrote: >> >> > What else than the police seeking revenge, and using muscle power and human >> > right violation as tools to establish their supremacy! >> > >> >  ------------------------------ >> > *From:* yasir ~يا سر >> > *To:* sarai list >> > *Sent:* Tuesday, 5 May, 2009 4:05:25 PM >> > *Subject:* [Reader-list] siliguri >> > >> > so what is going on here?  i dont understand the title. best. >> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvaCr1lPD6k >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: >> > >> > ------------------------------ >> > Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter now! >> > >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: >> >> >>      Now surf faster and smarter ! Check out the new Firefox 3 - Yahoo! Edition http://downloads.yahoo.com/in/firefox/?fr=om_email_firefox >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From yasir.media at gmail.com Fri May 8 00:14:08 2009 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?windows-1256?B?eWFzaXIgfu3HINPR?=) Date: Thu, 7 May 2009 23:44:08 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: siliguri In-Reply-To: <47e122a70905070959r3a69ee68qda3f2d308d6c0382@mail.gmail.com> References: <489057.44274.qm@web94703.mail.in2.yahoo.com> <5af37bb0905070949h38a1ff10m10f4eb6758a92e1f@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70905070959r3a69ee68qda3f2d308d6c0382@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5af37bb0905071144n661f136bv92ad6291d93ac032@mail.gmail.com> yes, instead of a friend On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 9:59 PM, Inder Salim wrote: > often it is very close to the self > > On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 10:19 PM, yasir ~يا سر wrote: >> who is the real enemy ? >> >> >> On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 6:53 PM, subhrodip sengupta >> wrote: >>> >>> >>> Off course I'm yet to verify whether these people are from Gorkha regiment. They were wearing white shirts and not Uniform. There are members of off course the Gorkha Jana Mukti Morcha, a seperatist group, these people could be it's members, and this body of late has been using over-riding powers than the constitutional setup. But of using violent force I know not. The man injured was of Police and there is something to do with him in this hecckling. The crux of the matter is domination whether present or ex-army man or not is not the question. On the Voting eve I saw able bodied men with semi-automated weapons and black wiel over their heads so many of them you may call them Commando's, but to me any heavy display of arms in public is bad. In this sense I'd like to differ from many of my brothers who believe you and the nation is one, you and these fearful people should be in harmony, because I am a stake holder I have a spirit and society means not >>>  Government and it's people. My concern is by giving power, one can not cure the spirit. Indeed two things I found funny: >>> a> That people collectively as well as Individually, I'd draw from neo-classical ideology because individual comes to cost-bearing, can not help it, and collectiveness comes to benefit; have grown so submersive and unconscious of their rights and thus rights of their near and dear ones. When two male officers arrest a woman no-one intervenes. Who wants to be framed a terrorist, NOT MANY! >>> b> These brave Commando's, with due respect at their valour,physique and skills, I saw them today directing the mob from a distance by sign language. They too are afraid to die! Inspite of having heavy weaponry! >>> These guys who act as mere agents know the state means only a piece of terrirory sans it's people and thus licensed and immune, they proceed to vent their animal spirits.. This is what we call is maintaining spirits of army? >>> >>> >>> >>>  Off course these are brave people, who are willing to lay their lives on their own interests, be it RAW or ISI both sohould be respected. Or not, there should be endless battle and Violence, and repress feelings of progress. May be individuals want to fragment India was not possible, nor Soviet, nor Pakistan nor US. Hatred is more powerful than harmony and progress, or is it because there is no material or natural backing, but barriers purpoted to aggravate violence? >>> >>> ----- Forwarded Message ---- >>> From: yasir ~يا سر >>> To: Sarai Reader-list >>> Sent: Wednesday, 6 May, 2009 10:03:31 PM >>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] siliguri >>> >>> ok. >>> the title is : >>> * >>> Lathi Charge in Siliguri against Indian Gorkha Regiment by West Bengal >>> Police* >>> >>> how can the police beat up the Indian Gorkha Regiment ??* >>> *isn't it more common the other way round. you cant mess with the army?* >>> >>> * >>> >>> On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 3:23 PM, subhrodip sengupta >> > wrote: >>> >>> > What else than the police seeking revenge, and using muscle power and human >>> > right violation as tools to establish their supremacy! >>> > >>> >  ------------------------------ >>> > *From:* yasir ~يا سر >>> > *To:* sarai list >>> > *Sent:* Tuesday, 5 May, 2009 4:05:25 PM >>> > *Subject:* [Reader-list] siliguri >>> > >>> > so what is going on here?  i dont understand the title. best. >>> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvaCr1lPD6k >>> > _________________________________________ >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> > Critiques & Collaborations >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> > subscribe in the subject header. >>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> > List archive: >>> > >>> > ------------------------------ >>> > Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter now! >>> > >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: >>> >>> >>>      Now surf faster and smarter ! Check out the new Firefox 3 - Yahoo! Edition http://downloads.yahoo.com/in/firefox/?fr=om_email_firefox >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Fri May 8 00:38:06 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Fri, 8 May 2009 00:38:06 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: Fw: siliguri Message-ID: <491518.13932.qm@web94706.mail.in2.yahoo.com> ----- Forwarded Message ---- From: subhrodip sengupta To: yasir ~يا سر Sent: Friday, 8 May, 2009 12:15:17 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fw: siliguri Seems the last part I typed was in haste, please read, 'People of india want to fragment the Nation, in true spirit, India was not possible, nor Soviet Union, nor US not even Pakistan', When can we then dream of erasing cross-country borders? Not in times of relative peace, I suppose! Well, there is according to me no 'real enemy'! Enimities are formed due to arising contradictions which place intersts of individuals at polar ends on issues. Sometimes one party single handedly starts an enemity as Shiv Sena, within the country. US was apparently India's bad-wisher, isn't that what enemy is, when it supplied arms to Pakistan or imposed Sanctions on India or after 24/11. Now they call it Strategic alliance! Who is real enemy? Well enemity is not that bad, for negative emotions are stronger than positive ones, and History has been formed by Fear, Distrust, Hatred, Lust, Deception, Greed etc. When did two lovers ever form a Nation? The key lies in identifying the root of conflict and trying to erradicate it, not necessarily through a (social)convergence, which can be stiffling at times, this may happen through a chaos as well! Of now I'd think about modifying Police rules and old topic, or one of two reduce Army, at time not possible, and a more likely Repeal ARMS act to more tolerable extents. I think this can give more breathing space to Manufacturers as well as Mulayam Singh and the Like! As for Gorkhaland, indeed which does not share Mainstream economic Interests with Bengal excpet may be selling Cardigans in winter, nor ethnicity nor culture, the Gorkhaland formation is not bad! The culture and ethnicity and violence part, some of it is captured in the Video itself, and note that Siliguri being a plane, this kind a event was possible! I do not think that current waves will hold the demand away for long for the kind of repression and consequent feedback from these Gorkhas, all in all support the claim for such a state within India, apart from reservation and employment issues, and off course drain of tourism funds to industrial purpose, if some one could capture to a greater detail the suppression of the Issue, or why people are joining the movement, what for the Gorkha Economy, it will bw helpful. Seperate state at any rate is better than Spereate legally sanctioned Zone or separate ammends to Code of Civil Proceedure, at any cost can we not learn from our mistake at Granting kashmir a seperate Legal status? SOme people are making heavy investments, so they will never learn!  ________________________________ From: yasir ~يا سر To: reader-list at sarai.net Cc: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Sent: Thursday, 7 May, 2009 10:19:14 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fw: siliguri who is the real enemy ? On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 6:53 PM, subhrodip sengupta wrote: > > > Off course I'm yet to verify whether these people are from Gorkha regiment. They were wearing white shirts and not Uniform. There are members of off course the Gorkha Jana Mukti Morcha, a seperatist group, these people could be it's members, and this body of late has been using over-riding powers than the constitutional setup. But of using violent force I know not. The man injured was of Police and there is something to do with him in this hecckling. The crux of the matter is domination whether present or ex-army man or not is not the question. On the Voting eve I saw able bodied men with semi-automated weapons and black wiel over their heads so many of them you may call them Commando's, but to me any heavy display of arms in public is bad. In this sense I'd like to differ from many of my brothers who believe you and the nation is one, you and these fearful people should be in harmony, because I am a stake holder I have a spirit and society means not >  Government and it's people. My concern is by giving power, one can not cure the spirit. Indeed two things I found funny: > a> That people collectively as well as Individually, I'd draw from neo-classical ideology because individual comes to cost-bearing, can not help it, and collectiveness comes to benefit; have grown so submersive and unconscious of their rights and thus rights of their near and dear ones. When two male officers arrest a woman no-one intervenes. Who wants to be framed a terrorist, NOT MANY! > b> These brave Commando's, with due respect at their valour,physique and skills, I saw them today directing the mob from a distance by sign language. They too are afraid to die! Inspite of having heavy weaponry! > These guys who act as mere agents know the state means only a piece of terrirory sans it's people and thus licensed and immune, they proceed to vent their animal spirits.. This is what we call is maintaining spirits of army? > > > >  Off course these are brave people, who are willing to lay their lives on their own interests, be it RAW or ISI both sohould be respected. Or not, there should be endless battle and Violence, and repress feelings of progress. May be individuals want to fragment India was not possible, nor Soviet, nor Pakistan nor US. Hatred is more powerful than harmony and progress, or is it because there is no material or natural backing, but barriers purpoted to aggravate violence? > > ----- Forwarded Message ---- > From: yasir ~يا سر > To: Sarai Reader-list > Sent: Wednesday, 6 May, 2009 10:03:31 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] siliguri > > ok. > the title is : > * > Lathi Charge in Siliguri against Indian Gorkha Regiment by West Bengal > Police* > > how can the police beat up the Indian Gorkha Regiment ??* > *isn't it more common the other way round. you cant mess with the army?* > > * > > On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 3:23 PM, subhrodip sengupta > wrote: > > > What else than the police seeking revenge, and using muscle power and human > > right violation as tools to establish their supremacy! > > > >  ------------------------------ > > *From:* yasir ~يا سر > > *To:* sarai list > > *Sent:* Tuesday, 5 May, 2009 4:05:25 PM > > *Subject:* [Reader-list] siliguri > > > > so what is going on here?  i dont understand the title. best. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvaCr1lPD6k > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > ------------------------------ > > Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter now! > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > >      Now surf faster and smarter ! Check out the new Firefox 3 - Yahoo! Edition http://downloads.yahoo.com/in/firefox/?fr=om_email_firefox > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: ________________________________ Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter now! Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter http://beta..cricket.yahoo.com From rana at ranadasgupta.com Fri May 8 01:04:19 2009 From: rana at ranadasgupta.com (Rana Dasgupta) Date: Fri, 08 May 2009 01:04:19 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] WSJ on the Indian media - "Want Press Coverage? Give Me Some Money" Message-ID: <4A0337BB.5050308@ranadasgupta.com> Want Press Coverage? Give Me Some Money By PAUL BECKETT Ajay Goyal is a serious, independent candidate contesting for a Lok Sabha seat in Chandigarh. Never heard of him? Neither, probably, have a lot of people in Chandigarh because when it came to getting press coverage for his campaign he was faced with a simple message: If you want press, you have to pay. So far, he says, he's been approached by about 10 people – some brokers and public relations managers acting on behalf of newspaper owners, some reporters and editors – with the message that he'll only get written about in the news pages for a fee. We're not talking advertising; we're talking news. One broker offered three weeks of coverage in four newspapers for 10 lakh rupees ($20,000). A reporter and a photographer from a Chandigarh newspaper told him that for 1.5 lakh rupees ($3,000) for them and a further 3 lakh rupees ($6,000) for other reporters, they could guarantee coverage in up to five newspapers for two weeks. "We would do good coverage for you," he says they told him. All of those who approached him either were from national Hindi language papers or regional papers, Mr. Goyal says. “You want a front page photo for free? This is something people pay for.” In one case, he went along to see what would happen: a press release he submitted full of falsehoods – claiming he had campaigned in places he had never been, for instance – ran verbatim. One thing he has never seen on his real campaign: a reporter there to cover the story. "It's disappointing," Mr. Goyal says. "What good is literacy and education if people have no access to real news, investigation, skepticism or a questioning reporter." At the nexus of corruption in India, the nation's newspapers usually play either vigilante cop exposing wrongdoing in the public interest (on a good day, at a few publications) or spineless patsy killing stories on the orders of powerful advertisers. Many papers also engage in practices that cross the ethical line between advertising and editorial in a way that is opaque, if not downright obscure, to readers. But it is of another order of magnitude to see reporters, editors and newspaper owners holding the democratic process to ransom. A free (in every sense) press is an integral part of a vibrant democracy. A corrupt press is both symptom and perpetrator of a rotten democracy. "I'm not saying all media is biased but there is a growing sense in people's minds that a lot of the media is biased," says Anil Bairwal, national coordinator of National Election Watch. "Some do it in a sublime manner and some do it openly." So why are we surprised when the voter turnout is so low, despite the much-touted surge of political awareness among the young and post-Mumbai? It's all part and parcel of the public disgust with the political system and the pillars of the Establishment that support that system as well. For every newly-minted reform-minded, politically aware voter, there are probably hundreds of jaded citizens who just decide the heck with it. How widespread is the practice of pay per say? The best-known English-language dailies typically don't do it so blatantly, candidates and others involved in the elections say. Rather, those papers are more likely to hue closely to one major party or the other, making it tough for candidates who don't fit the papers' view of the world to be heard. But in the Hindi, Urdu and Gujarati media, to name a few, the practice is widespread, candidates say. N. Gopalaswami, retired Chief Election Commissioner, says in an interview, "This is not something that can be ignored. It is not just a few apparent cases, it is much more than that." He has heard of newspapers proferring a rate card - one price for positive coverage, another for not negative coverage. The commission heard complaints in both 2007 and 2008 about candidates being charged for coverage. Among them, the national Communist parties who don't have the deep coffers to spend on campaigns. In Mumbai, a city appropriately geared to commerce, politicians are faced with multiple payment options. Consider these phrases from newspaper editors and brokers, which I culled from campaigners: "You want a front page photo for free? This is something people pay for." "If you want a picture in there or if you want a story, we have to be paid." "We're going to publish the interview, but you need to buy 5,000 copies of our paper." "1.2 lakhs ($2,400) for the next two weeks and I will take care of all that coverage." —Paul Beckett is the WSJ's bureau chief in New Delhi From skinnyghosh at gmail.com Fri May 8 02:07:07 2009 From: skinnyghosh at gmail.com (sukanya ghosh) Date: Fri, 08 May 2009 02:07:07 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] WSJ on the Indian media - "Want Press Coverage? Give Me Some Money" In-Reply-To: <4A0337BB.5050308@ranadasgupta.com> References: <4A0337BB.5050308@ranadasgupta.com> Message-ID: <4A034673.5090603@gmail.com> Sad but true. It's no surprise to learn of coverage 'bartering' for politicians. Seems to me a logical enough step considering that most other news coverage can consist of bought spaces. The entertainment pages (which unfortunately bleed their way insidiously into most other pages) are established norms for this. It seems to me that a 'free press' in our country exists in a very marginal way. Someone I met once who worked for a leading English language daily told me very pompously that 'they' (read 'educated journalist'), had nothing to do with and were not to be associated with what the rest of the paper was saying. Their reach consisted of being confined to the editorial pages of which they were supremely proud of. Never mind that the paper has various other pages of 'news', many supplements and an incredibly bad Sunday magazine. Are we to be thankful that we have a page of actual reading material (some of it occasionally good) and assume the rest is all trash? Another leading daily in another city (also English) has in place various marketing bundles which allow you to 'purchase' news coverage. And these are not covert or shadowy backroom deals - it's all very out there for the right buyers. We see newspapers, news channels owned by particular organisations who seem to spend a lot of their time exhorting the virtues of events / news pertaining to those organisations. And my pet grouse, all this while the arts sections keep shrinking in size day by day. Where trying to get coverage for an event / exhibition / book (no matter how significant) can lead to nail biting finish, wondering if the reporter (who has been given detailed press releases) will at least get the name right. The irony being of course that there is no dearth of news of the sensational variety if one were to attempt to report just facts in the case of Indian politics. But that would mean effort and interest. And that surely is lacking in our press coverages. Rana Dasgupta wrote: > Want Press Coverage? Give Me Some Money > > By PAUL BECKETT > > Ajay Goyal is a serious, independent candidate contesting for a Lok > Sabha seat in Chandigarh. > Never heard of him? Neither, probably, have a lot of people in > Chandigarh because when it came to getting press coverage for his > campaign he was faced with a simple message: If you want press, you have > to pay. > > So far, he says, he's been approached by about 10 people – some brokers > and public relations managers acting on behalf of newspaper owners, some > reporters and editors – with the message that he'll only get written > about in the news pages for a fee. We're not talking advertising; we're > talking news. > > One broker offered three weeks of coverage in four newspapers for 10 > lakh rupees ($20,000). A reporter and a photographer from a Chandigarh > newspaper told him that for 1.5 lakh rupees ($3,000) for them and a > further 3 lakh rupees ($6,000) for other reporters, they could guarantee > coverage in up to five newspapers for two weeks. > > "We would do good coverage for you," he says they told him. All of those > who approached him either were from national Hindi language papers or > regional papers, Mr. Goyal says. > > “You want a front page photo for free? This is something people pay for.” > > In one case, he went along to see what would happen: a press release he > submitted full of falsehoods – claiming he had campaigned in places he > had never been, for instance – ran verbatim. One thing he has never seen > on his real campaign: a reporter there to cover the story. > > "It's disappointing," Mr. Goyal says. "What good is literacy and > education if people have no access to real news, investigation, > skepticism or a questioning reporter." > > At the nexus of corruption in India, the nation's newspapers usually > play either vigilante cop exposing wrongdoing in the public interest (on > a good day, at a few publications) or spineless patsy killing stories on > the orders of powerful advertisers. Many papers also engage in practices > that cross the ethical line between advertising and editorial in a way > that is opaque, if not downright obscure, to readers. > > But it is of another order of magnitude to see reporters, editors and > newspaper owners holding the democratic process to ransom. A free (in > every sense) press is an integral part of a vibrant democracy. A corrupt > press is both symptom and perpetrator of a rotten democracy. > > "I'm not saying all media is biased but there is a growing sense in > people's minds that a lot of the media is biased," says Anil Bairwal, > national coordinator of National Election Watch. "Some do it in a > sublime manner and some do it openly." > > So why are we surprised when the voter turnout is so low, despite the > much-touted surge of political awareness among the young and > post-Mumbai? It's all part and parcel of the public disgust with the > political system and the pillars of the Establishment that support that > system as well. For every newly-minted reform-minded, politically aware > voter, there are probably hundreds of jaded citizens who just decide the > heck with it. > > How widespread is the practice of pay per say? > > The best-known English-language dailies typically don't do it so > blatantly, candidates and others involved in the elections say. Rather, > those papers are more likely to hue closely to one major party or the > other, making it tough for candidates who don't fit the papers' view of > the world to be heard. But in the Hindi, Urdu and Gujarati media, to > name a few, the practice is widespread, candidates say. > > N. Gopalaswami, retired Chief Election Commissioner, says in an > interview, "This is not something that can be ignored. It is not just a > few apparent cases, it is much more than that." > > He has heard of newspapers proferring a rate card - one price for > positive coverage, another for not negative coverage. The commission > heard complaints in both 2007 and 2008 about candidates being charged > for coverage. Among them, the national Communist parties who don't have > the deep coffers to spend on campaigns. > > In Mumbai, a city appropriately geared to commerce, politicians are > faced with multiple payment options. Consider these phrases from > newspaper editors and brokers, which I culled from campaigners: > > "You want a front page photo for free? This is something people pay for." > > "If you want a picture in there or if you want a story, we have to be paid." > > "We're going to publish the interview, but you need to buy 5,000 copies > of our paper." > > "1.2 lakhs ($2,400) for the next two weeks and I will take care of all > that coverage." > > —Paul Beckett is the WSJ's bureau chief in New Delhi > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- sukanya ghosh / +91 9831306925 From rohitism at gmail.com Fri May 8 09:34:39 2009 From: rohitism at gmail.com (Rohit Shetti) Date: Fri, 8 May 2009 09:34:39 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: "Socialism's Come Back"- (fwded) In-Reply-To: <1f9180970905062110o8397c1fp4fb85269d20f977e@mail.gmail.com> References: <1f9180970905062040k6a4e6c1aic9d95bc970e6491c@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970905062110o8397c1fp4fb85269d20f977e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Venu, One of the problems that I find with the earlier theories about governance is that the classes of people are categorized too simplistically. Lets take for example the term 'working class'. Presumably it refers to the people working in the monstrous factories and line assemblies.. which presumably are agreed upon as the pillars of 'development'. Doesn't this amount to accosting certain legitimacy to the notion of development based on having a thriving military-industry complex? True, there is a lot of context that exists even while organising labourers against being exploited, but I'm not sure if we are applying new contexts and the present-day dynamics rigorously enough in understanding older theories. I would be happy to stand corrected if I'm wrong in my assumptions. Rgds, Rohit On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 9:40 AM, Venugopalan K M wrote: > "..Marx's closest collaborator, Frederick Engels, argued back in the 1890s > that state ownership isn't equivalent to socialism. After the conservative > German leader Otto von Bismarck "went in for state ownership of industrial > establishments, a kind of spurious Socialism has arisen," Engels > complained, > "degenerating, now and again, into something of flunkyism, that without > more > ado declares all state ownership, even of the Bismarckian sort, to be > socialistic." > > Marx, Engels and the revolutionary socialists who followed them also argued > that socialism can't be achieved by voting a socialist party into office. > The workers themselves must take the lead in transforming society by > exerting their power in the workplace and taking control of production. > > That's why socialists can't be satisfied with a critique of capitalism. > They > have to organize and fight for an alternative, by rooting socialist > organization in working-class struggles against the ravages of capitalism. > > Eugene Debs, the great American socialist who got nearly a million votes > for > president in 1912, made this point. "I would not lead you into the promised > land if I could," he said, "because if I led you in, some one else would > lead you out. You must use your heads as well as your hands, and get > yourself out of your present condition." > http://socialistworker.org/2009/05/06/socialisms-comeback > > > > > -- > http://venukm.blogspot.com/ > > > > -- > http://venukm.blogspot.com/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From vedavati_jogi at yahoo.com Fri May 8 11:02:30 2009 From: vedavati_jogi at yahoo.com (Vedavati Jogi) Date: Fri, 8 May 2009 11:02:30 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of ... Message-ID: <869610.73762.qm@web94713.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Dear Javed,   First let me correct you. Hindus & Muslims have lived together for last 1000 years because thses muslims are originally indians (may be hindus-jains-buddhist-.. ) more than 90% muslims in india are indians because khaljis, tughalaqes, mughals etc. came here in thousands and not in crores. I have said it before also that Ram (and not Babar) is  their ancestor.   Social tension in those days was not due to these poor hindus & muslims but due to Sultans like Aurangzeb and his likes who pulled down Temples, imposited  Jizia, forcibly converted Hindus. People were helpless and Sant Kabir and Tulasidas tried to pacify them.   Comparing Arundhati and Tista with these Sant Mahatmas is really a mockery of History.   I request you to read authentic books on History and not those books having leftist or rightist leaning. e.g  volumes written by R. C. Mujumdar, Great Divide written by Hodson, Last phase written by Pyrelal, Sole spokesman by Ayesha Jalal and many more.   Muslims were reminded of their separate identity by an Educated Muslim - Sir Sayyad Ahamad Khan.   And father of Pakistan - Jinnah was initially a very secular person who had once expressed his displeasure when Mahatma Gandhi mentioned his religion. Gandhi had said that " I am really happy that inspite of being a Muslim, Jinnah is doing  so much for Congrass"   This 'inspite of ' had pretty hurt Mr. Jinnah. When Gandhi started Khilafat Jinnah was dead against it. Its he who had told Mahatma not to bring religion into the politics. Jinnah knew Indian muslims had nothing to do with Khilafat. Jinnah was senior to Gandhi- Nehru in Congress, He was the trusted man of Lokmanya Tilak. But Mahatma wanted to be the sole spokesman for Muslims as well as for the country.      Not religious but political rivalry between Gandhi & Jinnah lead to partition of india.   That time (again its a fact) that more 90 % Muslims had supported Pakistan  though ultimately they had to stay in India. Not because they were supporting secularism but because their daily bread & butter was in India.    Seculars rather 'sickulars' keep on reminding Muslims of their separate identity. 'Hindu bashing' is a must for them for proving their secular credentials. While  for  Politicians, muslims are a votebank'     Which has created gulf between Hindus & Muslims.   I will not hesitate to say it again - Hindus and Muslims should throw these seculars out of this country. Which will automatically nullify impact of Varun Gandhi's rhetorics.   Vedavati    --- On Thu, 7/5/09, M Javed wrote: From: M Javed Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of ... To: "Vedavati Jogi" Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Date: Thursday, 7 May, 2009, 6:25 PM Dear Vedavati You are right that Hindus and Muslims have been living together for 1000 years, but the real reason they lived together was that (despite the Alauddin Khaljis and Ghaznavis and Aurangzebs) there also existed in this country certain saner elements in the form of Kabir, Amir Khusro, Nizamuddin Aulia, Tulsidas, Surdas, Dara Shikoh, Guru Nanak and so on, who kept making efforts to bring people together at one platform despite their differences. And let me tell you that it is these people (Kabir, Nanak, Khusro) who were outcast in those days in the same fashion as you want to outcast your "sickulars". Yet we remember such people as the stalwarts of Indian secular tradition and so on. There may be some issues related to each person, but I consider people like Arundhati Roy, Teesta Setalvad, Binayak Sen and Safdar Hashmi as today's Kabirs and Dadu. If Hindus and Muslims couldn't survive peacefully in the past without the intervention of our Sufis and Bhakts, India cannot survive today without the relentless activism of Setalvad and Swami Agnivesh. I salute them for keeping the sanity alive. Javed On 5/7/09, Vedavati Jogi wrote: > muslims & hindus need not have to attack eachother. they have been living > together in this country since last 1000 years. > but i sincerely feel that both should attack sickulars like arundhati roy, > tista, left parties and many more, > throw them out of this country (along with gandhian and nehruvian models of > secularism) > without which true secularism will not be restored > vedavati > > > --- On Wed, 6/5/09, yasir ~يا سر wrote: > > > From: yasir ~يا سر > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims > To: "Sarai Reader-list" > Date: Wednesday, 6 May, 2009, 11:08 PM > > > dear vedavati > > and why would muslims attack hindus in any given context, even  IF they > chose to do so whether on the list or off, in the absence of the sickulars > doing so? > > > > > On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 4:05 PM, Vedavati Jogi > wrote: > >> what you have written is partially correct. >> muslims need not have to attack 'so called' hindus because that job is >> done >> by 'sickulars' on readers-list. >> >> vedavati >> >> --- On Wed, 6/5/09, Jeebesh wrote: >> >> >> From: Jeebesh >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims >> To: "Sarai Reader-list" >> Date: Wednesday, 6 May, 2009, 12:29 AM >> >> >> dear All, >> >> I do not understand how constantly the list members keep attacking the >> same entity called muslims and indian muslims. Well all attackers call >> themselves hindus. The viscousness of the attacks baffles me. If they >> had power and weapons they can do serious damage. >> >> On the other hand, i have not seen any person with so called "muslim >> name" attack a Hindu or Hinduism, on this list.  So why does so called >> Hindus keep attacking muslims in this list. What kind of blood lust is >> this? >> >> Now days Hinduism is a fairly celebrated religion and thousands of >> publications and places of worship is a sure sign of that. Yet a weird >> sense of injured self seem to have justified all kind of rabble rousing. >> >> Being cautious of authoritarian organization is one thing, but to keep >> on attacking a group of people is appalling. >> >> warmly >> jeebesh >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: >> >> >>       Own a website.Get an unlimited package.Pay next to nothing.*Go to >> http://in.business.yahoo.com/ >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > >       Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter > http://beta.cricket.yahoo.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter http://beta.cricket.yahoo.com From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Fri May 8 11:07:45 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Fri, 8 May 2009 11:07:45 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: "Socialism's Come Back"- (fwded) In-Reply-To: References: <1f9180970905062040k6a4e6c1aic9d95bc970e6491c@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970905062110o8397c1fp4fb85269d20f977e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1f9180970905072237h3202863dj742e2f5afdd10aee@mail.gmail.com> Dear Rohit, It occurs to me that problematizing the very definition of 'working class' though useful, it need not always lead to the kind of understanding you were mentioning. Understanding of the politics of peace and environmental concerns are already part of the Marxist paradigms of dialectis and hisoricity. Even in the earlier theories, it is possible to find categorical rejection of economic and militaristic determinism. Actually, it is not a matter of choice between peace and war, or between the economic growth and sustainability for that matter. Institutionalized forms of private ownership of the means of production are already in an antagonistic relation with the very process of (capitalistic) production and the real producers of wealth. War machines can be seen as just a manifestation of this fundamental contradiction. Without these concepts of 'working class' and internationalism, how will you go about any meaningful agenda of restructuring the world order? How will you define 'freedom' in the context of individuals and the entire humanity? I would say that limiting the meaning of 'working class' as people working in the monstrous factories and assembly lines need certainly be challenged in favour of a more realistic concern for the entire humanity. But the idea of 'dictatorship of the proletariat' should continue as a motivating factor in reversing the shameless exhibition of 'commonsensical' preferences for war and destruction through 'development' at the cost of the majority. This should certainly be replaced by a concern for durable structures of peace and sustainability, but probaly will never be accomplished in the absence of most powerful mobilization of wills of people across the globe. Unless the existing order of things is decicively challenged by a kind of dictatorship imposed by the fraternity of working class world wide, the mendacities about unlimited growth, need of more weapons for protecting the sovereign and national interests,etc,etc. will continue to be propagated and imposed against the will of the real producers of wealth. The end result of all these as we can see, is tolerance and meek submission to senseless violence, legitimation for greed , giving assent for looting and deprivation of fellow humans in the name of patriotic approval of the exercising of the sovereign power by the state,etc. On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 9:34 AM, Rohit Shetti wrote: > Hi Venu, > > One of the problems that I find with the earlier theories about governance > is that the classes of people are categorized too simplistically. Lets take > for example the term 'working class'. Presumably it refers to the people > working in the monstrous factories and line assemblies.. which presumably > are agreed upon as the pillars of 'development'. > > Doesn't this amount to accosting certain legitimacy to the notion of > development based on having a thriving military-industry complex? True, > there is a lot of context that exists even while organising labourers > against being exploited, but I'm not sure if we are applying new contexts > and the present-day dynamics rigorously enough in understanding older > theories. > > I would be happy to stand corrected if I'm wrong in my assumptions. > > Rgds, > > Rohit > > On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 9:40 AM, Venugopalan K M wrote: > >> "..Marx's closest collaborator, Frederick Engels, argued back in the 1890s >> that state ownership isn't equivalent to socialism. After the conservative >> German leader Otto von Bismarck "went in for state ownership of industrial >> establishments, a kind of spurious Socialism has arisen," Engels >> complained, >> "degenerating, now and again, into something of flunkyism, that without >> more >> ado declares all state ownership, even of the Bismarckian sort, to be >> socialistic." >> >> Marx, Engels and the revolutionary socialists who followed them also >> argued >> that socialism can't be achieved by voting a socialist party into office. >> The workers themselves must take the lead in transforming society by >> exerting their power in the workplace and taking control of production. >> >> That's why socialists can't be satisfied with a critique of capitalism. >> They >> have to organize and fight for an alternative, by rooting socialist >> organization in working-class struggles against the ravages of capitalism. >> >> Eugene Debs, the great American socialist who got nearly a million votes >> for >> president in 1912, made this point. "I would not lead you into the >> promised >> land if I could," he said, "because if I led you in, some one else would >> lead you out. You must use your heads as well as your hands, and get >> yourself out of your present condition." >> http://socialistworker.org/2009/05/06/socialisms-comeback >> >> >> >> >> -- >> http://venukm.blogspot.com/ >> >> >> >> -- >> http://venukm.blogspot.com/ >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Fri May 8 11:20:52 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Fri, 8 May 2009 11:20:52 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: siliguri In-Reply-To: <5af37bb0905071144n661f136bv92ad6291d93ac032@mail.gmail.com> References: <489057.44274.qm@web94703.mail.in2.yahoo.com> <5af37bb0905070949h38a1ff10m10f4eb6758a92e1f@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70905070959r3a69ee68qda3f2d308d6c0382@mail.gmail.com> <5af37bb0905071144n661f136bv92ad6291d93ac032@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <418624.89474.qm@web94713.mail.in2.yahoo.com> couldn't quite get the context, clean bowled! ________________________________ From: yasir ~يا سر To: reader-list Sent: Friday, 8 May, 2009 12:14:08 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fw: siliguri yes, instead of a friend On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 9:59 PM, Inder Salim wrote: > often it is very close to the self > > On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 10:19 PM, yasir ~يا سر wrote: >> who is the real enemy ? >> >> >> On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 6:53 PM, subhrodip sengupta >> wrote: >>> >>> >>> Off course I'm yet to verify whether these people are from Gorkha regiment. They were wearing white shirts and not Uniform. There are members of off course the Gorkha Jana Mukti Morcha, a seperatist group, these people could be it's members, and this body of late has been using over-riding powers than the constitutional setup. But of using violent force I know not. The man injured was of Police and there is something to do with him in this hecckling. The crux of the matter is domination whether present or ex-army man or not is not the question. On the Voting eve I saw able bodied men with semi-automated weapons and black wiel over their heads so many of them you may call them Commando's, but to me any heavy display of arms in public is bad. In this sense I'd like to differ from many of my brothers who believe you and the nation is one, you and these fearful people should be in harmony, because I am a stake holder I have a spirit and society means not >>>  Government and it's people. My concern is by giving power, one can not cure the spirit. Indeed two things I found funny: >>> a> That people collectively as well as Individually, I'd draw from neo-classical ideology because individual comes to cost-bearing, can not help it, and collectiveness comes to benefit; have grown so submersive and unconscious of their rights and thus rights of their near and dear ones. When two male officers arrest a woman no-one intervenes. Who wants to be framed a terrorist, NOT MANY! >>> b> These brave Commando's, with due respect at their valour,physique and skills, I saw them today directing the mob from a distance by sign language. They too are afraid to die! Inspite of having heavy weaponry! >>> These guys who act as mere agents know the state means only a piece of terrirory sans it's people and thus licensed and immune, they proceed to vent their animal spirits.. This is what we call is maintaining spirits of army? >>> >>> >>> >>>  Off course these are brave people, who are willing to lay their lives on their own interests, be it RAW or ISI both sohould be respected. Or not, there should be endless battle and Violence, and repress feelings of progress. May be individuals want to fragment India was not possible, nor Soviet, nor Pakistan nor US. Hatred is more powerful than harmony and progress, or is it because there is no material or natural backing, but barriers purpoted to aggravate violence? >>> >>> ----- Forwarded Message ---- >>> From: yasir ~يا سر >>> To: Sarai Reader-list >>> Sent: Wednesday, 6 May, 2009 10:03:31 PM >>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] siliguri >>> >>> ok. >>> the title is : >>> * >>> Lathi Charge in Siliguri against Indian Gorkha Regiment by West Bengal >>> Police* >>> >>> how can the police beat up the Indian Gorkha Regiment ??* >>> *isn't it more common the other way round. you cant mess with the army?* >>> >>> * >>> >>> On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 3:23 PM, subhrodip sengupta >> > wrote: >>> >>> > What else than the police seeking revenge, and using muscle power and human >>> > right violation as tools to establish their supremacy! >>> > >>> >  ------------------------------ >>> > *From:* yasir ~يا سر >>> > *To:* sarai list >>> > *Sent:* Tuesday, 5 May, 2009 4:05:25 PM >>> > *Subject:* [Reader-list] siliguri >>> > >>> > so what is going on here?  i dont understand the title. best. >>> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvaCr1lPD6k >>> > _________________________________________ >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> > Critiques & Collaborations >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> > subscribe in the subject header. >>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> > List archive: >>> > >>> > ------------------------------ >>> > Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter now! >>> > >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: >>> >>> >>>      Now surf faster and smarter ! Check out the new Firefox 3 - Yahoo! Edition http://downloads.yahoo.com/in/firefox/?fr=om_email_firefox >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter http://beta.cricket.yahoo.com From c.anupam at gmail.com Fri May 8 12:17:04 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Fri, 8 May 2009 12:17:04 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims In-Reply-To: <006201c9cfa3$65efe810$0201a8c0@limo> References: <341380d00905060756g25fb72fbpf2c821808ca6a809@mail.gmail.com> <364652.11961.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <341380d00905070728hfdf4e1brf22f4ad979b6ce74@mail.gmail.com> <006201c9cfa3$65efe810$0201a8c0@limo> Message-ID: <341380d00905072347t3c336d28g14fa25660d7a9178@mail.gmail.com> Dear Bipin, forget about me apologising but this whole conversation about safdar hashmi that has been removed, else i would have cited here what you said. let us be clear that you never made any objection of that sort. you also wanted to send a book by safdar hashmi to javed, which has been carefully deleted from this thread. i have no idea who is doing this but then no apologies to you or anyone for dragging safdar hashmi in this ugly discussion. -anupam On 5/8/09, bipin wrote: > > Dear Anupam, > > I have never said anything against Safdar Hashmi, only objected for putting > him with the list of Teestha and Arundhati that's all, if you don't > understand this than that is your problem. Sorry to say but read before > making any comment. > > thanks > Bipin > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "anupam chakravartty" < > c.anupam at gmail.com> > To: "sarai list" > Sent: Thursday, May 07, 2009 7:58 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims > > > dear kshmendra, >> >> i would not have taken chanchal's name in the mail if it were your >> comments. >> in case if there is any miscommunication on my part, i apologise. but yes >> that mail was written in a fit of rage and frustration. and yes i have >> every >> right to say which topic should be discussed in this reader's list as i am >> a >> reader. i welcome moderator's intervention. >> >> besides that i have nothing much to say. i said what i could what i am >> capable of. enough has been said. bipin went overboard saying things >> against >> safdar hashmi, which was very very unfortunate. i never thought someone >> could stoop to such levels. so you can at least forgive for making any >> intentional/unintentional attack on you. i guess you can. >> >> with regards and apologies >> anupam >> >> >> On 5/7/09, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: >> >>> >>> Dear Anupam >>> >>> You foist on me an identity crisis. You start of by addressing me by my >>> name and towards the end call me Chanchal. But you are not alone in such >>> abuse. Inder elsewhere compared me with Modi. (Please treat this as a >>> very >>> lighthearted comment). >>> >>> Anupam one cannot impose or be selective in wishing what topics >>> are discussed on this List or to what extent. Only Moderator intervention >>> can ensure that. >>> >>> Any topic or issue on which there is public discourse can find it's way >>> in >>> this public space too. >>> >>> Let me tell you in all sincerity (if you can trust such a declaration by >>> me) that I do understand the spirit of what you have stated. But, I think >>> you are being unreasonable. >>> >>> Since we easily lose perspective of where a particulat thread has >>> started, >>> I was not talking about Indian Muslims but the Islamic Flag used by >>> Indian >>> Muslims. In retrospect, I could have said "Islamic Flag used by SOME >>> Indian >>> Muslims". That would have been an idiotically unneccesary distinction to >>> stress upon but perhaps that is what I should have done. One learns. >>> >>> But, if someone chooses to divert a topic to a direction of their own >>> choosing, they will use any excuse. That is exactly what happened by >>> Javed >>> asking me "Who is an Indian Muslim?" >>> >>> Hell my friend (not you AC) that might be a topic of interest to you but >>> here I am talking about the Islam Flag used by Indian Muslims AND the >>> close >>> resemblance it bears to the Pakistani Flag AND the misunderstandings it >>> causes. Aisa Hota Hai (It happens) >>> >>> Again the Assam Bodo-Muslim / Pakistani Flag topic was of interest to you >>> AC and you picked on that just because I said that even AC made a mistake >>> over the Flag dictinctions. In your case I benefitted from your very >>> interesting comments on that particular issue. >>> >>> This issue of "Who Indian Muslim, What Indian Muslim, Why Indian Muslim" >>> might provide intellectual fodder for some but that Identity Type is one >>> which is in the public space of discourse. >>> >>> I posted 3 article from a Web forum, guess what it is called - INDIAN >>> MUSLIMS. All 3 article dealt with issues concerning guess who - INDIAN >>> MUSLIMS. Guess who has authored them - INDIAN MUSLIMS. >>> >>> I do agree that one cannot reduce every issue that might be unique in its >>> dimensions (even though it might arise from one common Identity Type) to >>> being applicable as a comment about everyone belonging to that Identity >>> Type. But at the same time it would idiotic to dismiss that certain >>> references (even as every single individual in that Identity Type might >>> not >>> subscribe to it) can be mentioned as a generalisation about that Identity >>> Type. >>> >>> If I were to say "For centuries now Hindus have allowed or been exploited >>> by the most degraded and inhuman precepts to be propagated and practiced >>> in >>> the name of a presumed Dharmshastra called Manu Smriti", it would be >>> idiotic >>> for anyone to respond with "Who Hindu, What Hindu, Why Hindu, answer that >>> before we tell you whether we agree with you or not" >>> >>> Khair, Aisa Hota Hai (It happens). It happens when there is no intent to >>> seriously think over an issue but instead subvert. >>> >>> As I told you earlier I do understand the spirit of what you have stated. >>> I >>> have no strong disagreement with the rest of your mail, though my >>> attitude >>> is different from yours regarding " Do you think we, as a nation, are >>> ready >>> to discuss religion ....." AND "I do not have any right to express >>> criticism >>> about a religion, which I do not belong to." >>> >>> I will not dwell on those. >>> >>> Kshmendra >>> >>> >>> --- On *Wed, 5/6/09, anupam chakravartty * wrote: >>> >>> >>> From: anupam chakravartty >>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims >>> To: "sarai list" >>> Date: Wednesday, May 6, 2009, 8:26 PM >>> >>> Dear Kshmendra, >>> >>> >>> >>> I have just one problem when such issues are being raised. Why are we >>> discussing Indian Muslims as a whole because a relief camp in some corner >>> of >>> this country facing an ethnic conflict? Do you think we, as a nation, are >>> ready to discuss religion when it is in such a fragile state having >>> clowns >>> as leaders? Hardening of religious identities are taking precedence over >>> the >>> basic amenities that a person, a human being, deserves in this country. >>> My >>> sole objective is to dispel this hardening of our religious identities. >>> And >>> obviously, keeping in mind the hardening of Hindu identity, which is >>> scattered worries me more. I feel in process of hardening Hindu identity >>> it >>> would loose its very essence, its intangible, meditative nature, which >>> one >>> can experience without even going to a temple. I am equally scared of the >>> hardening of Muslim identity in the country. >>> >>> >>> >>> However, I am a Hindu by birth, so I shall only be criticizing, >>> questioning >>> my faith. I do not have any right to express criticism about a religion, >>> which I do not belong to. In that way, I feel I can deride this >>> majoritarian >>> tendency of some power hungry individuals to dominate the religion and >>> mould >>> its identity in such a way that it can allow only chosen few things to >>> grow. >>> When several studies are done to explore this religion, find out finer >>> aspects where this religion gets fused with local forms of worship, there >>> are another set of people trying to shape up a pan-Indian identity of >>> this >>> religion by raising issues about an ancient mosque and grandiose plan to >>> make a temple and turn it into a tourist spot. Next thing I will know is >>> that Ram is tall muscular DC comic like warrior forgetting the effeminate >>> imagery of Ram the compassionate one, Tulsidas’ Ram, or Mahatma Gandhi’s >>> Ram. Ram, who would not have built a temple by destroying another’s place >>> of >>> worship. Chanchal, don’t you think this is worse than the forced >>> conversions? >>> >>> >>> >>> Ironically, a generalised statement: “we do not have food to eat” is >>> difficult to assert about a nation following the logical and statistical >>> problems that it may create, But I am surprised that we are comfortable >>> in >>> the blame game of who caused the first religious strife and asserting >>> generalised opinions about specific community. Call me a communist, >>> sickular, whatever you want. The struggle is not about religion; it’s >>> about >>> being territorial behaving like canines. Who gets to own more land >>> irrespective of what colour your flag is. >>> >>> >>> Anupam >>> >>> >>> >>> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > From c.anupam at gmail.com Fri May 8 12:30:28 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Fri, 8 May 2009 12:30:28 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] WSJ on the Indian media - "Want Press Coverage? Give Me Some Money" In-Reply-To: <4A034673.5090603@gmail.com> References: <4A0337BB.5050308@ranadasgupta.com> <4A034673.5090603@gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00905080000i7df7fceocbf5852bc8e05d54@mail.gmail.com> certain other truths about newspapers: newspapers essentially buy newsprint from state. one newspaper costs Rs 15, while its sold for Rs 3-4 to the reader. free press is marginalised by the state and its functionaries. a reporter essentially fears a rejoinder. On 5/8/09, sukanya ghosh wrote: > > Sad but true. It's no surprise to learn of coverage 'bartering' for > politicians. Seems to me a logical enough step considering that most > other news coverage can consist of bought spaces. The entertainment > pages (which unfortunately bleed their way insidiously into most other > pages) are established norms for this. It seems to me that a 'free > press' in our country exists in a very marginal way. Someone I met once > who worked for a leading English language daily told me very pompously > that 'they' (read 'educated journalist'), had nothing to do with and > were not to be associated with what the rest of the paper was saying. > Their reach consisted of being confined to the editorial pages of which > they were supremely proud of. Never mind that the paper has various > other pages of 'news', many supplements and an incredibly bad Sunday > magazine. Are we to be thankful that we have a page of actual reading > material (some of it occasionally good) and assume the rest is all > trash? Another leading daily in another city (also English) has in place > various marketing bundles which allow you to 'purchase' news coverage. > And these are not covert or shadowy backroom deals - it's all very out > there for the right buyers. We see newspapers, news channels owned by > particular organisations who seem to spend a lot of their time exhorting > the virtues of events / news pertaining to those organisations. And my > pet grouse, all this while the arts sections keep shrinking in size day > by day. Where trying to get coverage for an event / exhibition / book > (no matter how significant) can lead to nail biting finish, wondering if > the reporter (who has been given detailed press releases) will at least > get the name right. > > The irony being of course that there is no dearth of news of the > sensational variety if one were to attempt to report just facts in the > case of Indian politics. But that would mean effort and interest. And > that surely is lacking in our press coverages. > > > > > Rana Dasgupta wrote: > > Want Press Coverage? Give Me Some Money > > > > By PAUL BECKETT > > > > Ajay Goyal is a serious, independent candidate contesting for a Lok > > Sabha seat in Chandigarh. > > Never heard of him? Neither, probably, have a lot of people in > > Chandigarh because when it came to getting press coverage for his > > campaign he was faced with a simple message: If you want press, you have > > to pay. > > > > So far, he says, he's been approached by about 10 people – some brokers > > and public relations managers acting on behalf of newspaper owners, some > > reporters and editors – with the message that he'll only get written > > about in the news pages for a fee. We're not talking advertising; we're > > talking news. > > > > One broker offered three weeks of coverage in four newspapers for 10 > > lakh rupees ($20,000). A reporter and a photographer from a Chandigarh > > newspaper told him that for 1.5 lakh rupees ($3,000) for them and a > > further 3 lakh rupees ($6,000) for other reporters, they could guarantee > > coverage in up to five newspapers for two weeks. > > > > "We would do good coverage for you," he says they told him. All of those > > who approached him either were from national Hindi language papers or > > regional papers, Mr. Goyal says. > > > > “You want a front page photo for free? This is something people pay for.” > > > > In one case, he went along to see what would happen: a press release he > > submitted full of falsehoods – claiming he had campaigned in places he > > had never been, for instance – ran verbatim. One thing he has never seen > > on his real campaign: a reporter there to cover the story. > > > > "It's disappointing," Mr. Goyal says. "What good is literacy and > > education if people have no access to real news, investigation, > > skepticism or a questioning reporter." > > > > At the nexus of corruption in India, the nation's newspapers usually > > play either vigilante cop exposing wrongdoing in the public interest (on > > a good day, at a few publications) or spineless patsy killing stories on > > the orders of powerful advertisers. Many papers also engage in practices > > that cross the ethical line between advertising and editorial in a way > > that is opaque, if not downright obscure, to readers. > > > > But it is of another order of magnitude to see reporters, editors and > > newspaper owners holding the democratic process to ransom. A free (in > > every sense) press is an integral part of a vibrant democracy. A corrupt > > press is both symptom and perpetrator of a rotten democracy. > > > > "I'm not saying all media is biased but there is a growing sense in > > people's minds that a lot of the media is biased," says Anil Bairwal, > > national coordinator of National Election Watch. "Some do it in a > > sublime manner and some do it openly." > > > > So why are we surprised when the voter turnout is so low, despite the > > much-touted surge of political awareness among the young and > > post-Mumbai? It's all part and parcel of the public disgust with the > > political system and the pillars of the Establishment that support that > > system as well. For every newly-minted reform-minded, politically aware > > voter, there are probably hundreds of jaded citizens who just decide the > > heck with it. > > > > How widespread is the practice of pay per say? > > > > The best-known English-language dailies typically don't do it so > > blatantly, candidates and others involved in the elections say. Rather, > > those papers are more likely to hue closely to one major party or the > > other, making it tough for candidates who don't fit the papers' view of > > the world to be heard. But in the Hindi, Urdu and Gujarati media, to > > name a few, the practice is widespread, candidates say. > > > > N. Gopalaswami, retired Chief Election Commissioner, says in an > > interview, "This is not something that can be ignored. It is not just a > > few apparent cases, it is much more than that." > > > > He has heard of newspapers proferring a rate card - one price for > > positive coverage, another for not negative coverage. The commission > > heard complaints in both 2007 and 2008 about candidates being charged > > for coverage. Among them, the national Communist parties who don't have > > the deep coffers to spend on campaigns. > > > > In Mumbai, a city appropriately geared to commerce, politicians are > > faced with multiple payment options. Consider these phrases from > > newspaper editors and brokers, which I culled from campaigners: > > > > "You want a front page photo for free? This is something people pay for." > > > > "If you want a picture in there or if you want a story, we have to be > paid." > > > > "We're going to publish the interview, but you need to buy 5,000 copies > > of our paper." > > > > "1.2 lakhs ($2,400) for the next two weeks and I will take care of all > > that coverage." > > > > —Paul Beckett is the WSJ's bureau chief in New Delhi > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > -- > sukanya ghosh / +91 9831306925 > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From javedmasoo at gmail.com Fri May 8 12:57:00 2009 From: javedmasoo at gmail.com (M Javed) Date: Fri, 8 May 2009 12:57:00 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of ... In-Reply-To: <869610.73762.qm@web94713.mail.in2.yahoo.com> References: <869610.73762.qm@web94713.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Vedavati That's your interpretation of history (and the present), which I may not agree with. If you expect me to read the historians that you refer to, then you should also read the historians I can refer to. But in any case, no historian can tell us what the TRUTH is, because there is no such a thing as the absolute truth - everything is a subjective interpretation of reality. Forget about the past. If we have to throw someone out of the country, we should throw only those who are creating a divide, and not those who are trying to bring the people together, and helping to heal the wounds of the past. Tell me, in what way is Teesta or Arundhati Roy dividing the people? Javed On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 11:02 AM, Vedavati Jogi wrote: > Dear Javed, > > First let me correct you. Hindus & Muslims have lived together for last 1000 > years because thses muslims are originally indians (may be > hindus-jains-buddhist-.. ) > more than 90% muslims in india are indians because khaljis, tughalaqes, > mughals etc. came here in thousands and not in crores. I have said it before > also that Ram (and not Babar) is  their ancestor. > > Social tension in those days was not due to these poor hindus & muslims but > due to Sultans like Aurangzeb and his likes who pulled down Temples, > imposited  Jizia, forcibly converted Hindus. People were helpless and Sant > Kabir and Tulasidas tried to pacify them. > > Comparing Arundhati and Tista with these Sant Mahatmas is really a mockery > of History. > > I request you to read authentic books on History and not those books having > leftist or rightist leaning. e.g  volumes written by R. C. Mujumdar, Great > Divide written by Hodson, Last phase written by Pyrelal, Sole spokesman by > Ayesha Jalal and many more. > > Muslims were reminded of their separate identity by an Educated Muslim - Sir > Sayyad Ahamad Khan. > > And father of Pakistan - Jinnah was initially a very secular person who had > once expressed his displeasure when Mahatma Gandhi mentioned his religion. > Gandhi had said that " I am really happy that inspite of being a Muslim, > Jinnah is doing  so much for Congrass" > > This 'inspite of ' had pretty hurt Mr. Jinnah. When Gandhi started Khilafat > Jinnah was dead against it. Its he who had told Mahatma not to bring > religion into the politics. Jinnah knew Indian muslims had nothing to do > with Khilafat. Jinnah was senior to Gandhi- Nehru in Congress, He was the > trusted man of Lokmanya Tilak. But Mahatma wanted to be the sole spokesman > for Muslims as well as for the country. > > Not religious but political rivalry between Gandhi & Jinnah lead to > partition of india. > > That time (again its a fact) that more 90 % Muslims had > supported Pakistan  though ultimately they had to stay in India. Not because > they were supporting secularism but because their daily bread & butter was > in India. > > Seculars rather 'sickulars' keep on reminding Muslims of their separate > identity. 'Hindu bashing' is a must for them for proving their secular > credentials. While  for  Politicians, muslims are a votebank' > > Which has created gulf between Hindus & Muslims. > > I will not hesitate to say it again - Hindus and Muslims should throw these > seculars out of this country. Which will automatically nullify impact > of Varun Gandhi's rhetorics. > > Vedavati > > --- On Thu, 7/5/09, M Javed wrote: > > From: M Javed > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of ... > To: "Vedavati Jogi" > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Thursday, 7 May, 2009, 6:25 PM > > Dear Vedavati > > You are right that Hindus and Muslims have been living together for > 1000 years, but the real reason they lived together was that (despite > the Alauddin Khaljis and Ghaznavis and Aurangzebs) there also existed > in this country certain saner elements in the form of Kabir, Amir > Khusro, Nizamuddin Aulia, Tulsidas, Surdas, Dara Shikoh, Guru Nanak > and so on, who kept making efforts to bring people together at one > platform despite their differences. And let me tell you that it is > these people (Kabir, Nanak, Khusro) who were outcast in those days in > the same fashion as you want to outcast your "sickulars". Yet we > remember such people as the stalwarts of Indian secular tradition and > so on. There may be some issues related to each person, but I consider > people like Arundhati Roy, Teesta Setalvad, Binayak Sen and Safdar > Hashmi as today's Kabirs and Dadu. > > If Hindus and Muslims couldn't survive peacefully in the past without > the intervention of our Sufis and Bhakts, India cannot survive today > without the relentless activism of Setalvad and Swami Agnivesh. I > salute them for keeping the sanity alive. > > Javed > > > On 5/7/09, Vedavati Jogi wrote: >> muslims & hindus need not have to attack eachother. they have been living >> together in this country since last 1000 years. >> but i sincerely feel that both should attack sickulars like arundhati roy, >> tista, left parties and many more, >> throw them out of this country (along with gandhian and nehruvian models >> of >> secularism) >> without which true secularism will not be restored >> vedavati >> >> >> --- On Wed, 6/5/09, yasir ~يا سر wrote: >> >> >> From: yasir ~يا سر >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims >> To: "Sarai Reader-list" >> Date: Wednesday, 6 May, 2009, 11:08 PM >> >> >> dear vedavati >> >> and why would muslims attack hindus in any given context, even  IF they >> chose to do so whether on the list or off, in the absence of the sickulars >> doing so? >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 4:05 PM, Vedavati Jogi >> wrote: >> >>> what you have written is partially correct. >>> muslims need not have to attack 'so called' hindus because that job is >>> done >>> by 'sickulars' on readers-list. >>> >>> vedavati >>> >>> --- On Wed, 6/5/09, Jeebesh wrote: >>> >>> >>> From: Jeebesh >>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims >>> To: "Sarai Reader-list" >>> Date: Wednesday, 6 May, 2009, 12:29 AM >>> >>> >>> dear All, >>> >>> I do not understand how constantly the list members keep attacking the >>> same entity called muslims and indian muslims. Well all attackers call >>> themselves hindus. The viscousness of the attacks baffles me. If they >>> had power and weapons they can do serious damage. >>> >>> On the other hand, i have not seen any person with so called "muslim >>> name" attack a Hindu or Hinduism, on this list.  So why does so called >>> Hindus keep attacking muslims in this list. What kind of blood lust is >>> this? >>> >>> Now days Hinduism is a fairly celebrated religion and thousands of >>> publications and places of worship is a sure sign of that. Yet a weird >>> sense of injured self seem to have justified all kind of rabble rousing. >>> >>> Being cautious of authoritarian organization is one thing, but to keep >>> on attacking a group of people is appalling. >>> >>> warmly >>> jeebesh >>> >>> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: >>> >>> >>>       Own a website.Get an unlimited package.Pay next to nothing.*Go to >>> http://in.business.yahoo..com/ >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: >>> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe >> in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >>       Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter >> http://beta.cricket.yahoo.com >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe >> in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > ________________________________ > Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter now! From c.anupam at gmail.com Fri May 8 13:06:37 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Fri, 8 May 2009 13:06:37 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims In-Reply-To: <007501c9cfab$3da4d660$0201a8c0@limo> References: <341380d00905060756g25fb72fbpf2c821808ca6a809@mail.gmail.com> <364652.11961.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <341380d00905070728hfdf4e1brf22f4ad979b6ce74@mail.gmail.com> <006201c9cfa3$65efe810$0201a8c0@limo> <341380d00905072347t3c336d28g14fa25660d7a9178@mail.gmail.com> <007501c9cfab$3da4d660$0201a8c0@limo> Message-ID: <341380d00905080036t28c4ed63yfa40c6425632ff86@mail.gmail.com> bipin to M, sarai-list show details May 7 (20 hours ago) What a joke. Greatest joke of the era to compare Arundhati Roy, Teesta Setalvad, Binayak Sen and Safdar Hashmi as today's Kabirs and Dadu. Sorry its democratic country and freedom of speech must be there, but one should respect our historian On 5/8/09, bipin wrote: > > I have not put any apology at all, since I have never tried to tarnish > safdar hashmi image. What ever wrong belief in your mind is ur problem I ma > least concern > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "anupam chakravartty" < > c.anupam at gmail.com> > To: "sarai list" > Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 12:17 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims > > > Dear Bipin, >> >> forget about me apologising but this whole conversation about safdar >> hashmi >> that has been removed, else i would have cited here what you said. let us >> be >> clear that you never made any objection of that sort. you also wanted to >> send a book by safdar hashmi to javed, which has been carefully deleted >> from >> this thread. i have no idea who is doing this but then no apologies to you >> or anyone for dragging safdar hashmi in this ugly discussion. >> >> -anupam >> >> >> On 5/8/09, bipin wrote: >> >>> >>> Dear Anupam, >>> >>> I have never said anything against Safdar Hashmi, only objected for >>> putting >>> him with the list of Teestha and Arundhati that's all, if you don't >>> understand this than that is your problem. Sorry to say but read before >>> making any comment. >>> >>> thanks >>> Bipin >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "anupam chakravartty" < >>> c.anupam at gmail.com> >>> To: "sarai list" >>> Sent: Thursday, May 07, 2009 7:58 PM >>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims >>> >>> >>> dear kshmendra, >>> >>>> >>>> i would not have taken chanchal's name in the mail if it were your >>>> comments. >>>> in case if there is any miscommunication on my part, i apologise. but >>>> yes >>>> that mail was written in a fit of rage and frustration. and yes i have >>>> every >>>> right to say which topic should be discussed in this reader's list as i >>>> am >>>> a >>>> reader. i welcome moderator's intervention. >>>> >>>> besides that i have nothing much to say. i said what i could what i am >>>> capable of. enough has been said. bipin went overboard saying things >>>> against >>>> safdar hashmi, which was very very unfortunate. i never thought someone >>>> could stoop to such levels. so you can at least forgive for making any >>>> intentional/unintentional attack on you. i guess you can. >>>> >>>> with regards and apologies >>>> anupam >>>> >>>> >>>> On 5/7/09, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> Dear Anupam >>>>> >>>>> You foist on me an identity crisis. You start of by addressing me by my >>>>> name and towards the end call me Chanchal. But you are not alone in >>>>> such >>>>> abuse. Inder elsewhere compared me with Modi. (Please treat this as a >>>>> very >>>>> lighthearted comment). >>>>> >>>>> Anupam one cannot impose or be selective in wishing what topics >>>>> are discussed on this List or to what extent. Only Moderator >>>>> intervention >>>>> can ensure that. >>>>> >>>>> Any topic or issue on which there is public discourse can find it's way >>>>> in >>>>> this public space too. >>>>> >>>>> Let me tell you in all sincerity (if you can trust such a declaration >>>>> by >>>>> me) that I do understand the spirit of what you have stated. But, I >>>>> think >>>>> you are being unreasonable. >>>>> >>>>> Since we easily lose perspective of where a particulat thread has >>>>> started, >>>>> I was not talking about Indian Muslims but the Islamic Flag used by >>>>> Indian >>>>> Muslims. In retrospect, I could have said "Islamic Flag used by SOME >>>>> Indian >>>>> Muslims". That would have been an idiotically unneccesary distinction >>>>> to >>>>> stress upon but perhaps that is what I should have done. One learns. >>>>> >>>>> But, if someone chooses to divert a topic to a direction of their own >>>>> choosing, they will use any excuse. That is exactly what happened by >>>>> Javed >>>>> asking me "Who is an Indian Muslim?" >>>>> >>>>> Hell my friend (not you AC) that might be a topic of interest to you >>>>> but >>>>> here I am talking about the Islam Flag used by Indian Muslims AND the >>>>> close >>>>> resemblance it bears to the Pakistani Flag AND the misunderstandings it >>>>> causes. Aisa Hota Hai (It happens) >>>>> >>>>> Again the Assam Bodo-Muslim / Pakistani Flag topic was of interest to >>>>> you >>>>> AC and you picked on that just because I said that even AC made a >>>>> mistake >>>>> over the Flag dictinctions. In your case I benefitted from your very >>>>> interesting comments on that particular issue. >>>>> >>>>> This issue of "Who Indian Muslim, What Indian Muslim, Why Indian >>>>> Muslim" >>>>> might provide intellectual fodder for some but that Identity Type is >>>>> one >>>>> which is in the public space of discourse. >>>>> >>>>> I posted 3 article from a Web forum, guess what it is called - INDIAN >>>>> MUSLIMS. All 3 article dealt with issues concerning guess who - INDIAN >>>>> MUSLIMS. Guess who has authored them - INDIAN MUSLIMS. >>>>> >>>>> I do agree that one cannot reduce every issue that might be unique in >>>>> its >>>>> dimensions (even though it might arise from one common Identity Type) >>>>> to >>>>> being applicable as a comment about everyone belonging to that Identity >>>>> Type. But at the same time it would idiotic to dismiss that certain >>>>> references (even as every single individual in that Identity Type might >>>>> not >>>>> subscribe to it) can be mentioned as a generalisation about that >>>>> Identity >>>>> Type. >>>>> >>>>> If I were to say "For centuries now Hindus have allowed or been >>>>> exploited >>>>> by the most degraded and inhuman precepts to be propagated and >>>>> practiced >>>>> in >>>>> the name of a presumed Dharmshastra called Manu Smriti", it would be >>>>> idiotic >>>>> for anyone to respond with "Who Hindu, What Hindu, Why Hindu, answer >>>>> that >>>>> before we tell you whether we agree with you or not" >>>>> >>>>> Khair, Aisa Hota Hai (It happens). It happens when there is no intent >>>>> to >>>>> seriously think over an issue but instead subvert. >>>>> >>>>> As I told you earlier I do understand the spirit of what you have >>>>> stated. >>>>> I >>>>> have no strong disagreement with the rest of your mail, though my >>>>> attitude >>>>> is different from yours regarding " Do you think we, as a nation, are >>>>> ready >>>>> to discuss religion ....." AND "I do not have any right to express >>>>> criticism >>>>> about a religion, which I do not belong to." >>>>> >>>>> I will not dwell on those. >>>>> >>>>> Kshmendra >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> --- On *Wed, 5/6/09, anupam chakravartty * wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> From: anupam chakravartty >>>>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims >>>>> To: "sarai list" >>>>> Date: Wednesday, May 6, 2009, 8:26 PM >>>>> >>>>> Dear Kshmendra, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I have just one problem when such issues are being raised. Why are we >>>>> discussing Indian Muslims as a whole because a relief camp in some >>>>> corner >>>>> of >>>>> this country facing an ethnic conflict? Do you think we, as a nation, >>>>> are >>>>> ready to discuss religion when it is in such a fragile state having >>>>> clowns >>>>> as leaders? Hardening of religious identities are taking precedence >>>>> over >>>>> the >>>>> basic amenities that a person, a human being, deserves in this country. >>>>> My >>>>> sole objective is to dispel this hardening of our religious identities. >>>>> And >>>>> obviously, keeping in mind the hardening of Hindu identity, which is >>>>> scattered worries me more. I feel in process of hardening Hindu >>>>> identity >>>>> it >>>>> would loose its very essence, its intangible, meditative nature, which >>>>> one >>>>> can experience without even going to a temple. I am equally scared of >>>>> the >>>>> hardening of Muslim identity in the country. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> However, I am a Hindu by birth, so I shall only be criticizing, >>>>> questioning >>>>> my faith. I do not have any right to express criticism about a >>>>> religion, >>>>> which I do not belong to. In that way, I feel I can deride this >>>>> majoritarian >>>>> tendency of some power hungry individuals to dominate the religion and >>>>> mould >>>>> its identity in such a way that it can allow only chosen few things to >>>>> grow. >>>>> When several studies are done to explore this religion, find out finer >>>>> aspects where this religion gets fused with local forms of worship, >>>>> there >>>>> are another set of people trying to shape up a pan-Indian identity of >>>>> this >>>>> religion by raising issues about an ancient mosque and grandiose plan >>>>> to >>>>> make a temple and turn it into a tourist spot. Next thing I will know >>>>> is >>>>> that Ram is tall muscular DC comic like warrior forgetting the >>>>> effeminate >>>>> imagery of Ram the compassionate one, Tulsidas’ Ram, or Mahatma >>>>> Gandhi’s >>>>> Ram. Ram, who would not have built a temple by destroying another’s >>>>> place >>>>> of >>>>> worship. Chanchal, don’t you think this is worse than the forced >>>>> conversions? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Ironically, a generalised statement: “we do not have food to eat” is >>>>> difficult to assert about a nation following the logical and >>>>> statistical >>>>> problems that it may create, But I am surprised that we are comfortable >>>>> in >>>>> the blame game of who caused the first religious strife and asserting >>>>> generalised opinions about specific community. Call me a communist, >>>>> sickular, whatever you want. The struggle is not about religion; it’s >>>>> about >>>>> being territorial behaving like canines. Who gets to own more land >>>>> irrespective of what colour your flag is. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Anupam >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>> >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > From c.anupam at gmail.com Fri May 8 13:08:11 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Fri, 8 May 2009 13:08:11 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims In-Reply-To: <341380d00905080036t28c4ed63yfa40c6425632ff86@mail.gmail.com> References: <341380d00905060756g25fb72fbpf2c821808ca6a809@mail.gmail.com> <364652.11961.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <341380d00905070728hfdf4e1brf22f4ad979b6ce74@mail.gmail.com> <006201c9cfa3$65efe810$0201a8c0@limo> <341380d00905072347t3c336d28g14fa25660d7a9178@mail.gmail.com> <007501c9cfab$3da4d660$0201a8c0@limo> <341380d00905080036t28c4ed63yfa40c6425632ff86@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00905080038n5b118b5dl8a21e7780b9657b4@mail.gmail.com> so bipin..what should i make out this? what were you trying to say? On 5/8/09, anupam chakravartty wrote: > > bipin to M, sarai-list > show details > May 7 (20 hours ago) What a joke. Greatest joke of the era to > compare Arundhati Roy, Teesta > > Setalvad, Binayak Sen and Safdar Hashmi as today's Kabirs and Dadu. > > Sorry its democratic country and freedom of speech must be there, but one > should respect our historian > > > On 5/8/09, bipin wrote: >> >> I have not put any apology at all, since I have never tried to tarnish >> safdar hashmi image. What ever wrong belief in your mind is ur problem I ma >> least concern >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "anupam chakravartty" < >> c.anupam at gmail.com> >> To: "sarai list" >> Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 12:17 PM >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims >> >> >> Dear Bipin, >>> >>> forget about me apologising but this whole conversation about safdar >>> hashmi >>> that has been removed, else i would have cited here what you said. let us >>> be >>> clear that you never made any objection of that sort. you also wanted to >>> send a book by safdar hashmi to javed, which has been carefully deleted >>> from >>> this thread. i have no idea who is doing this but then no apologies to >>> you >>> or anyone for dragging safdar hashmi in this ugly discussion. >>> >>> -anupam >>> >>> >>> On 5/8/09, bipin wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Dear Anupam, >>>> >>>> I have never said anything against Safdar Hashmi, only objected for >>>> putting >>>> him with the list of Teestha and Arundhati that's all, if you don't >>>> understand this than that is your problem. Sorry to say but read before >>>> making any comment. >>>> >>>> thanks >>>> Bipin >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "anupam chakravartty" < >>>> c.anupam at gmail.com> >>>> To: "sarai list" >>>> Sent: Thursday, May 07, 2009 7:58 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims >>>> >>>> >>>> dear kshmendra, >>>> >>>>> >>>>> i would not have taken chanchal's name in the mail if it were your >>>>> comments. >>>>> in case if there is any miscommunication on my part, i apologise. but >>>>> yes >>>>> that mail was written in a fit of rage and frustration. and yes i have >>>>> every >>>>> right to say which topic should be discussed in this reader's list as i >>>>> am >>>>> a >>>>> reader. i welcome moderator's intervention. >>>>> >>>>> besides that i have nothing much to say. i said what i could what i am >>>>> capable of. enough has been said. bipin went overboard saying things >>>>> against >>>>> safdar hashmi, which was very very unfortunate. i never thought someone >>>>> could stoop to such levels. so you can at least forgive for making any >>>>> intentional/unintentional attack on you. i guess you can. >>>>> >>>>> with regards and apologies >>>>> anupam >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 5/7/09, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Dear Anupam >>>>>> >>>>>> You foist on me an identity crisis. You start of by addressing me by >>>>>> my >>>>>> name and towards the end call me Chanchal. But you are not alone in >>>>>> such >>>>>> abuse. Inder elsewhere compared me with Modi. (Please treat this as a >>>>>> very >>>>>> lighthearted comment). >>>>>> >>>>>> Anupam one cannot impose or be selective in wishing what topics >>>>>> are discussed on this List or to what extent. Only Moderator >>>>>> intervention >>>>>> can ensure that. >>>>>> >>>>>> Any topic or issue on which there is public discourse can find it's >>>>>> way >>>>>> in >>>>>> this public space too. >>>>>> >>>>>> Let me tell you in all sincerity (if you can trust such a declaration >>>>>> by >>>>>> me) that I do understand the spirit of what you have stated. But, I >>>>>> think >>>>>> you are being unreasonable. >>>>>> >>>>>> Since we easily lose perspective of where a particulat thread has >>>>>> started, >>>>>> I was not talking about Indian Muslims but the Islamic Flag used by >>>>>> Indian >>>>>> Muslims. In retrospect, I could have said "Islamic Flag used by SOME >>>>>> Indian >>>>>> Muslims". That would have been an idiotically unneccesary distinction >>>>>> to >>>>>> stress upon but perhaps that is what I should have done. One learns. >>>>>> >>>>>> But, if someone chooses to divert a topic to a direction of their own >>>>>> choosing, they will use any excuse. That is exactly what happened by >>>>>> Javed >>>>>> asking me "Who is an Indian Muslim?" >>>>>> >>>>>> Hell my friend (not you AC) that might be a topic of interest to you >>>>>> but >>>>>> here I am talking about the Islam Flag used by Indian Muslims AND the >>>>>> close >>>>>> resemblance it bears to the Pakistani Flag AND the misunderstandings >>>>>> it >>>>>> causes. Aisa Hota Hai (It happens) >>>>>> >>>>>> Again the Assam Bodo-Muslim / Pakistani Flag topic was of interest to >>>>>> you >>>>>> AC and you picked on that just because I said that even AC made a >>>>>> mistake >>>>>> over the Flag dictinctions. In your case I benefitted from your very >>>>>> interesting comments on that particular issue. >>>>>> >>>>>> This issue of "Who Indian Muslim, What Indian Muslim, Why Indian >>>>>> Muslim" >>>>>> might provide intellectual fodder for some but that Identity Type is >>>>>> one >>>>>> which is in the public space of discourse. >>>>>> >>>>>> I posted 3 article from a Web forum, guess what it is called - INDIAN >>>>>> MUSLIMS. All 3 article dealt with issues concerning guess who - INDIAN >>>>>> MUSLIMS. Guess who has authored them - INDIAN MUSLIMS. >>>>>> >>>>>> I do agree that one cannot reduce every issue that might be unique in >>>>>> its >>>>>> dimensions (even though it might arise from one common Identity Type) >>>>>> to >>>>>> being applicable as a comment about everyone belonging to that >>>>>> Identity >>>>>> Type. But at the same time it would idiotic to dismiss that certain >>>>>> references (even as every single individual in that Identity Type >>>>>> might >>>>>> not >>>>>> subscribe to it) can be mentioned as a generalisation about that >>>>>> Identity >>>>>> Type. >>>>>> >>>>>> If I were to say "For centuries now Hindus have allowed or been >>>>>> exploited >>>>>> by the most degraded and inhuman precepts to be propagated and >>>>>> practiced >>>>>> in >>>>>> the name of a presumed Dharmshastra called Manu Smriti", it would be >>>>>> idiotic >>>>>> for anyone to respond with "Who Hindu, What Hindu, Why Hindu, answer >>>>>> that >>>>>> before we tell you whether we agree with you or not" >>>>>> >>>>>> Khair, Aisa Hota Hai (It happens). It happens when there is no intent >>>>>> to >>>>>> seriously think over an issue but instead subvert. >>>>>> >>>>>> As I told you earlier I do understand the spirit of what you have >>>>>> stated. >>>>>> I >>>>>> have no strong disagreement with the rest of your mail, though my >>>>>> attitude >>>>>> is different from yours regarding " Do you think we, as a nation, are >>>>>> ready >>>>>> to discuss religion ....." AND "I do not have any right to express >>>>>> criticism >>>>>> about a religion, which I do not belong to." >>>>>> >>>>>> I will not dwell on those. >>>>>> >>>>>> Kshmendra >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> --- On *Wed, 5/6/09, anupam chakravartty * wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> From: anupam chakravartty >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims >>>>>> To: "sarai list" >>>>>> Date: Wednesday, May 6, 2009, 8:26 PM >>>>>> >>>>>> Dear Kshmendra, >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I have just one problem when such issues are being raised. Why are we >>>>>> discussing Indian Muslims as a whole because a relief camp in some >>>>>> corner >>>>>> of >>>>>> this country facing an ethnic conflict? Do you think we, as a nation, >>>>>> are >>>>>> ready to discuss religion when it is in such a fragile state having >>>>>> clowns >>>>>> as leaders? Hardening of religious identities are taking precedence >>>>>> over >>>>>> the >>>>>> basic amenities that a person, a human being, deserves in this >>>>>> country. >>>>>> My >>>>>> sole objective is to dispel this hardening of our religious >>>>>> identities. >>>>>> And >>>>>> obviously, keeping in mind the hardening of Hindu identity, which is >>>>>> scattered worries me more. I feel in process of hardening Hindu >>>>>> identity >>>>>> it >>>>>> would loose its very essence, its intangible, meditative nature, which >>>>>> one >>>>>> can experience without even going to a temple. I am equally scared of >>>>>> the >>>>>> hardening of Muslim identity in the country. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> However, I am a Hindu by birth, so I shall only be criticizing, >>>>>> questioning >>>>>> my faith. I do not have any right to express criticism about a >>>>>> religion, >>>>>> which I do not belong to. In that way, I feel I can deride this >>>>>> majoritarian >>>>>> tendency of some power hungry individuals to dominate the religion and >>>>>> mould >>>>>> its identity in such a way that it can allow only chosen few things to >>>>>> grow. >>>>>> When several studies are done to explore this religion, find out finer >>>>>> aspects where this religion gets fused with local forms of worship, >>>>>> there >>>>>> are another set of people trying to shape up a pan-Indian identity of >>>>>> this >>>>>> religion by raising issues about an ancient mosque and grandiose plan >>>>>> to >>>>>> make a temple and turn it into a tourist spot. Next thing I will know >>>>>> is >>>>>> that Ram is tall muscular DC comic like warrior forgetting the >>>>>> effeminate >>>>>> imagery of Ram the compassionate one, Tulsidas’ Ram, or Mahatma >>>>>> Gandhi’s >>>>>> Ram. Ram, who would not have built a temple by destroying another’s >>>>>> place >>>>>> of >>>>>> worship. Chanchal, don’t you think this is worse than the forced >>>>>> conversions? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Ironically, a generalised statement: “we do not have food to eat” is >>>>>> difficult to assert about a nation following the logical and >>>>>> statistical >>>>>> problems that it may create, But I am surprised that we are >>>>>> comfortable >>>>>> in >>>>>> the blame game of who caused the first religious strife and asserting >>>>>> generalised opinions about specific community. Call me a communist, >>>>>> sickular, whatever you want. The struggle is not about religion; it’s >>>>>> about >>>>>> being territorial behaving like canines. Who gets to own more land >>>>>> irrespective of what colour your flag is. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Anupam >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>>> >>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >> >> > From aliens at dataone.in Fri May 8 13:42:12 2009 From: aliens at dataone.in (bipin) Date: Fri, 08 May 2009 13:42:12 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims References: <341380d00905060756g25fb72fbpf2c821808ca6a809@mail.gmail.com> <364652.11961.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <341380d00905070728hfdf4e1brf22f4ad979b6ce74@mail.gmail.com> <006201c9cfa3$65efe810$0201a8c0@limo> <341380d00905072347t3c336d28g14fa25660d7a9178@mail.gmail.com> <007501c9cfab$3da4d660$0201a8c0@limo> <341380d00905080036t28c4ed63yfa40c6425632ff86@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <000201c9cfb5$2f44fb90$0201a8c0@limo> objection was listed with teesta n arundhati anupam if u dont understand this ur proble. Also, i respect safdar hashmi but still not of the level of kabit n dadu yet. ----- Original Message ----- From: "anupam chakravartty" To: "sarai list" Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 1:06 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims > bipin to M, sarai-list > show details > May 7 (20 hours ago) What a joke. Greatest joke of the era to compare > Arundhati Roy, Teesta > > Setalvad, Binayak Sen and Safdar Hashmi as today's Kabirs and Dadu. > > Sorry its democratic country and freedom of speech must be there, but one > should respect our historian > > > On 5/8/09, bipin wrote: >> >> I have not put any apology at all, since I have never tried to tarnish >> safdar hashmi image. What ever wrong belief in your mind is ur problem I >> ma >> least concern >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "anupam chakravartty" < >> c.anupam at gmail.com> >> To: "sarai list" >> Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 12:17 PM >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims >> >> >> Dear Bipin, >>> >>> forget about me apologising but this whole conversation about safdar >>> hashmi >>> that has been removed, else i would have cited here what you said. let >>> us >>> be >>> clear that you never made any objection of that sort. you also wanted to >>> send a book by safdar hashmi to javed, which has been carefully deleted >>> from >>> this thread. i have no idea who is doing this but then no apologies to >>> you >>> or anyone for dragging safdar hashmi in this ugly discussion. >>> >>> -anupam >>> >>> >>> On 5/8/09, bipin wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Dear Anupam, >>>> >>>> I have never said anything against Safdar Hashmi, only objected for >>>> putting >>>> him with the list of Teestha and Arundhati that's all, if you don't >>>> understand this than that is your problem. Sorry to say but read before >>>> making any comment. >>>> >>>> thanks >>>> Bipin >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "anupam chakravartty" < >>>> c.anupam at gmail.com> >>>> To: "sarai list" >>>> Sent: Thursday, May 07, 2009 7:58 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims >>>> >>>> >>>> dear kshmendra, >>>> >>>>> >>>>> i would not have taken chanchal's name in the mail if it were your >>>>> comments. >>>>> in case if there is any miscommunication on my part, i apologise. but >>>>> yes >>>>> that mail was written in a fit of rage and frustration. and yes i have >>>>> every >>>>> right to say which topic should be discussed in this reader's list as >>>>> i >>>>> am >>>>> a >>>>> reader. i welcome moderator's intervention. >>>>> >>>>> besides that i have nothing much to say. i said what i could what i am >>>>> capable of. enough has been said. bipin went overboard saying things >>>>> against >>>>> safdar hashmi, which was very very unfortunate. i never thought >>>>> someone >>>>> could stoop to such levels. so you can at least forgive for making any >>>>> intentional/unintentional attack on you. i guess you can. >>>>> >>>>> with regards and apologies >>>>> anupam >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 5/7/09, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Dear Anupam >>>>>> >>>>>> You foist on me an identity crisis. You start of by addressing me by >>>>>> my >>>>>> name and towards the end call me Chanchal. But you are not alone in >>>>>> such >>>>>> abuse. Inder elsewhere compared me with Modi. (Please treat this as >>>>>> a >>>>>> very >>>>>> lighthearted comment). >>>>>> >>>>>> Anupam one cannot impose or be selective in wishing what topics >>>>>> are discussed on this List or to what extent. Only Moderator >>>>>> intervention >>>>>> can ensure that. >>>>>> >>>>>> Any topic or issue on which there is public discourse can find it's >>>>>> way >>>>>> in >>>>>> this public space too. >>>>>> >>>>>> Let me tell you in all sincerity (if you can trust such a declaration >>>>>> by >>>>>> me) that I do understand the spirit of what you have stated. But, I >>>>>> think >>>>>> you are being unreasonable. >>>>>> >>>>>> Since we easily lose perspective of where a particulat thread has >>>>>> started, >>>>>> I was not talking about Indian Muslims but the Islamic Flag used by >>>>>> Indian >>>>>> Muslims. In retrospect, I could have said "Islamic Flag used by SOME >>>>>> Indian >>>>>> Muslims". That would have been an idiotically unneccesary distinction >>>>>> to >>>>>> stress upon but perhaps that is what I should have done. One learns. >>>>>> >>>>>> But, if someone chooses to divert a topic to a direction of their own >>>>>> choosing, they will use any excuse. That is exactly what happened by >>>>>> Javed >>>>>> asking me "Who is an Indian Muslim?" >>>>>> >>>>>> Hell my friend (not you AC) that might be a topic of interest to you >>>>>> but >>>>>> here I am talking about the Islam Flag used by Indian Muslims AND the >>>>>> close >>>>>> resemblance it bears to the Pakistani Flag AND the misunderstandings >>>>>> it >>>>>> causes. Aisa Hota Hai (It happens) >>>>>> >>>>>> Again the Assam Bodo-Muslim / Pakistani Flag topic was of interest to >>>>>> you >>>>>> AC and you picked on that just because I said that even AC made a >>>>>> mistake >>>>>> over the Flag dictinctions. In your case I benefitted from your very >>>>>> interesting comments on that particular issue. >>>>>> >>>>>> This issue of "Who Indian Muslim, What Indian Muslim, Why Indian >>>>>> Muslim" >>>>>> might provide intellectual fodder for some but that Identity Type is >>>>>> one >>>>>> which is in the public space of discourse. >>>>>> >>>>>> I posted 3 article from a Web forum, guess what it is called - INDIAN >>>>>> MUSLIMS. All 3 article dealt with issues concerning guess who - >>>>>> INDIAN >>>>>> MUSLIMS. Guess who has authored them - INDIAN MUSLIMS. >>>>>> >>>>>> I do agree that one cannot reduce every issue that might be unique in >>>>>> its >>>>>> dimensions (even though it might arise from one common Identity Type) >>>>>> to >>>>>> being applicable as a comment about everyone belonging to that >>>>>> Identity >>>>>> Type. But at the same time it would idiotic to dismiss that certain >>>>>> references (even as every single individual in that Identity Type >>>>>> might >>>>>> not >>>>>> subscribe to it) can be mentioned as a generalisation about that >>>>>> Identity >>>>>> Type. >>>>>> >>>>>> If I were to say "For centuries now Hindus have allowed or been >>>>>> exploited >>>>>> by the most degraded and inhuman precepts to be propagated and >>>>>> practiced >>>>>> in >>>>>> the name of a presumed Dharmshastra called Manu Smriti", it would be >>>>>> idiotic >>>>>> for anyone to respond with "Who Hindu, What Hindu, Why Hindu, answer >>>>>> that >>>>>> before we tell you whether we agree with you or not" >>>>>> >>>>>> Khair, Aisa Hota Hai (It happens). It happens when there is no intent >>>>>> to >>>>>> seriously think over an issue but instead subvert. >>>>>> >>>>>> As I told you earlier I do understand the spirit of what you have >>>>>> stated. >>>>>> I >>>>>> have no strong disagreement with the rest of your mail, though my >>>>>> attitude >>>>>> is different from yours regarding " Do you think we, as a nation, are >>>>>> ready >>>>>> to discuss religion ....." AND "I do not have any right to express >>>>>> criticism >>>>>> about a religion, which I do not belong to." >>>>>> >>>>>> I will not dwell on those. >>>>>> >>>>>> Kshmendra >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> --- On *Wed, 5/6/09, anupam chakravartty * wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> From: anupam chakravartty >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims >>>>>> To: "sarai list" >>>>>> Date: Wednesday, May 6, 2009, 8:26 PM >>>>>> >>>>>> Dear Kshmendra, >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I have just one problem when such issues are being raised. Why are we >>>>>> discussing Indian Muslims as a whole because a relief camp in some >>>>>> corner >>>>>> of >>>>>> this country facing an ethnic conflict? Do you think we, as a nation, >>>>>> are >>>>>> ready to discuss religion when it is in such a fragile state having >>>>>> clowns >>>>>> as leaders? Hardening of religious identities are taking precedence >>>>>> over >>>>>> the >>>>>> basic amenities that a person, a human being, deserves in this >>>>>> country. >>>>>> My >>>>>> sole objective is to dispel this hardening of our religious >>>>>> identities. >>>>>> And >>>>>> obviously, keeping in mind the hardening of Hindu identity, which is >>>>>> scattered worries me more. I feel in process of hardening Hindu >>>>>> identity >>>>>> it >>>>>> would loose its very essence, its intangible, meditative nature, >>>>>> which >>>>>> one >>>>>> can experience without even going to a temple. I am equally scared of >>>>>> the >>>>>> hardening of Muslim identity in the country. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> However, I am a Hindu by birth, so I shall only be criticizing, >>>>>> questioning >>>>>> my faith. I do not have any right to express criticism about a >>>>>> religion, >>>>>> which I do not belong to. In that way, I feel I can deride this >>>>>> majoritarian >>>>>> tendency of some power hungry individuals to dominate the religion >>>>>> and >>>>>> mould >>>>>> its identity in such a way that it can allow only chosen few things >>>>>> to >>>>>> grow. >>>>>> When several studies are done to explore this religion, find out >>>>>> finer >>>>>> aspects where this religion gets fused with local forms of worship, >>>>>> there >>>>>> are another set of people trying to shape up a pan-Indian identity of >>>>>> this >>>>>> religion by raising issues about an ancient mosque and grandiose plan >>>>>> to >>>>>> make a temple and turn it into a tourist spot. Next thing I will know >>>>>> is >>>>>> that Ram is tall muscular DC comic like warrior forgetting the >>>>>> effeminate >>>>>> imagery of Ram the compassionate one, Tulsidas’ Ram, or Mahatma >>>>>> Gandhi’s >>>>>> Ram. Ram, who would not have built a temple by destroying another’s >>>>>> place >>>>>> of >>>>>> worship. Chanchal, don’t you think this is worse than the forced >>>>>> conversions? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Ironically, a generalised statement: “we do not have food to eat” is >>>>>> difficult to assert about a nation following the logical and >>>>>> statistical >>>>>> problems that it may create, But I am surprised that we are >>>>>> comfortable >>>>>> in >>>>>> the blame game of who caused the first religious strife and asserting >>>>>> generalised opinions about specific community. Call me a communist, >>>>>> sickular, whatever you want. The struggle is not about religion; it’s >>>>>> about >>>>>> being territorial behaving like canines. Who gets to own more land >>>>>> irrespective of what colour your flag is. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Anupam >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>>> >>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >> >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From c.anupam at gmail.com Fri May 8 15:03:30 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Fri, 8 May 2009 15:03:30 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims In-Reply-To: <000201c9cfb5$2f44fb90$0201a8c0@limo> References: <341380d00905060756g25fb72fbpf2c821808ca6a809@mail.gmail.com> <364652.11961.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <341380d00905070728hfdf4e1brf22f4ad979b6ce74@mail.gmail.com> <006201c9cfa3$65efe810$0201a8c0@limo> <341380d00905072347t3c336d28g14fa25660d7a9178@mail.gmail.com> <007501c9cfab$3da4d660$0201a8c0@limo> <341380d00905080036t28c4ed63yfa40c6425632ff86@mail.gmail.com> <000201c9cfb5$2f44fb90$0201a8c0@limo> Message-ID: <341380d00905080233p248596e5xbf77f3383e2d7b28@mail.gmail.com> bipin, it is surely my problem only. you are free to say whatever u feel like and then retract from your statements. -anupam On 5/8/09, bipin wrote: > objection was listed with teesta n arundhati anupam if u dont understand > this ur proble. Also, i respect safdar hashmi but still not of the level of > kabit n dadu yet. > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "anupam chakravartty" < > c.anupam at gmail.com> > To: "sarai list" > Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 1:06 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims > > > bipin to M, sarai-list >> show details >> May 7 (20 hours ago) What a joke. Greatest joke of the era to compare >> Arundhati Roy, Teesta >> >> Setalvad, Binayak Sen and Safdar Hashmi as today's Kabirs and Dadu. >> >> Sorry its democratic country and freedom of speech must be there, but one >> should respect our historian >> >> >> On 5/8/09, bipin wrote: >> >>> >>> I have not put any apology at all, since I have never tried to tarnish >>> safdar hashmi image. What ever wrong belief in your mind is ur problem I >>> ma >>> least concern >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "anupam chakravartty" < >>> c.anupam at gmail.com> >>> To: "sarai list" >>> Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 12:17 PM >>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims >>> >>> >>> Dear Bipin, >>> >>>> >>>> forget about me apologising but this whole conversation about safdar >>>> hashmi >>>> that has been removed, else i would have cited here what you said. let >>>> us >>>> be >>>> clear that you never made any objection of that sort. you also wanted to >>>> send a book by safdar hashmi to javed, which has been carefully deleted >>>> from >>>> this thread. i have no idea who is doing this but then no apologies to >>>> you >>>> or anyone for dragging safdar hashmi in this ugly discussion. >>>> >>>> -anupam >>>> >>>> >>>> On 5/8/09, bipin wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> Dear Anupam, >>>>> >>>>> I have never said anything against Safdar Hashmi, only objected for >>>>> putting >>>>> him with the list of Teestha and Arundhati that's all, if you don't >>>>> understand this than that is your problem. Sorry to say but read before >>>>> making any comment. >>>>> >>>>> thanks >>>>> Bipin >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "anupam chakravartty" < >>>>> c.anupam at gmail.com> >>>>> To: "sarai list" >>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 07, 2009 7:58 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> dear kshmendra, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> i would not have taken chanchal's name in the mail if it were your >>>>>> comments. >>>>>> in case if there is any miscommunication on my part, i apologise. but >>>>>> yes >>>>>> that mail was written in a fit of rage and frustration. and yes i have >>>>>> every >>>>>> right to say which topic should be discussed in this reader's list as >>>>>> i >>>>>> am >>>>>> a >>>>>> reader. i welcome moderator's intervention. >>>>>> >>>>>> besides that i have nothing much to say. i said what i could what i am >>>>>> capable of. enough has been said. bipin went overboard saying things >>>>>> against >>>>>> safdar hashmi, which was very very unfortunate. i never thought >>>>>> someone >>>>>> could stoop to such levels. so you can at least forgive for making any >>>>>> intentional/unintentional attack on you. i guess you can. >>>>>> >>>>>> with regards and apologies >>>>>> anupam >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 5/7/09, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Dear Anupam >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You foist on me an identity crisis. You start of by addressing me by >>>>>>> my >>>>>>> name and towards the end call me Chanchal. But you are not alone in >>>>>>> such >>>>>>> abuse. Inder elsewhere compared me with Modi. (Please treat this as >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> very >>>>>>> lighthearted comment). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Anupam one cannot impose or be selective in wishing what topics >>>>>>> are discussed on this List or to what extent. Only Moderator >>>>>>> intervention >>>>>>> can ensure that. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Any topic or issue on which there is public discourse can find it's >>>>>>> way >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> this public space too. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Let me tell you in all sincerity (if you can trust such a declaration >>>>>>> by >>>>>>> me) that I do understand the spirit of what you have stated. But, I >>>>>>> think >>>>>>> you are being unreasonable. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Since we easily lose perspective of where a particulat thread has >>>>>>> started, >>>>>>> I was not talking about Indian Muslims but the Islamic Flag used by >>>>>>> Indian >>>>>>> Muslims. In retrospect, I could have said "Islamic Flag used by SOME >>>>>>> Indian >>>>>>> Muslims". That would have been an idiotically unneccesary distinction >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> stress upon but perhaps that is what I should have done. One learns. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But, if someone chooses to divert a topic to a direction of their own >>>>>>> choosing, they will use any excuse. That is exactly what happened by >>>>>>> Javed >>>>>>> asking me "Who is an Indian Muslim?" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hell my friend (not you AC) that might be a topic of interest to you >>>>>>> but >>>>>>> here I am talking about the Islam Flag used by Indian Muslims AND the >>>>>>> close >>>>>>> resemblance it bears to the Pakistani Flag AND the misunderstandings >>>>>>> it >>>>>>> causes. Aisa Hota Hai (It happens) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Again the Assam Bodo-Muslim / Pakistani Flag topic was of interest to >>>>>>> you >>>>>>> AC and you picked on that just because I said that even AC made a >>>>>>> mistake >>>>>>> over the Flag dictinctions. In your case I benefitted from your very >>>>>>> interesting comments on that particular issue. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This issue of "Who Indian Muslim, What Indian Muslim, Why Indian >>>>>>> Muslim" >>>>>>> might provide intellectual fodder for some but that Identity Type is >>>>>>> one >>>>>>> which is in the public space of discourse. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I posted 3 article from a Web forum, guess what it is called - INDIAN >>>>>>> MUSLIMS. All 3 article dealt with issues concerning guess who - >>>>>>> INDIAN >>>>>>> MUSLIMS. Guess who has authored them - INDIAN MUSLIMS. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I do agree that one cannot reduce every issue that might be unique in >>>>>>> its >>>>>>> dimensions (even though it might arise from one common Identity Type) >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> being applicable as a comment about everyone belonging to that >>>>>>> Identity >>>>>>> Type. But at the same time it would idiotic to dismiss that certain >>>>>>> references (even as every single individual in that Identity Type >>>>>>> might >>>>>>> not >>>>>>> subscribe to it) can be mentioned as a generalisation about that >>>>>>> Identity >>>>>>> Type. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If I were to say "For centuries now Hindus have allowed or been >>>>>>> exploited >>>>>>> by the most degraded and inhuman precepts to be propagated and >>>>>>> practiced >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> the name of a presumed Dharmshastra called Manu Smriti", it would be >>>>>>> idiotic >>>>>>> for anyone to respond with "Who Hindu, What Hindu, Why Hindu, answer >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> before we tell you whether we agree with you or not" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Khair, Aisa Hota Hai (It happens). It happens when there is no intent >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> seriously think over an issue but instead subvert. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As I told you earlier I do understand the spirit of what you have >>>>>>> stated. >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> have no strong disagreement with the rest of your mail, though my >>>>>>> attitude >>>>>>> is different from yours regarding " Do you think we, as a nation, are >>>>>>> ready >>>>>>> to discuss religion ....." AND "I do not have any right to express >>>>>>> criticism >>>>>>> about a religion, which I do not belong to." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I will not dwell on those. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Kshmendra >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --- On *Wed, 5/6/09, anupam chakravartty * >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> From: anupam chakravartty >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims >>>>>>> To: "sarai list" >>>>>>> Date: Wednesday, May 6, 2009, 8:26 PM >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Dear Kshmendra, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have just one problem when such issues are being raised. Why are we >>>>>>> discussing Indian Muslims as a whole because a relief camp in some >>>>>>> corner >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> this country facing an ethnic conflict? Do you think we, as a nation, >>>>>>> are >>>>>>> ready to discuss religion when it is in such a fragile state having >>>>>>> clowns >>>>>>> as leaders? Hardening of religious identities are taking precedence >>>>>>> over >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> basic amenities that a person, a human being, deserves in this >>>>>>> country. >>>>>>> My >>>>>>> sole objective is to dispel this hardening of our religious >>>>>>> identities. >>>>>>> And >>>>>>> obviously, keeping in mind the hardening of Hindu identity, which is >>>>>>> scattered worries me more. I feel in process of hardening Hindu >>>>>>> identity >>>>>>> it >>>>>>> would loose its very essence, its intangible, meditative nature, >>>>>>> which >>>>>>> one >>>>>>> can experience without even going to a temple. I am equally scared of >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> hardening of Muslim identity in the country. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> However, I am a Hindu by birth, so I shall only be criticizing, >>>>>>> questioning >>>>>>> my faith. I do not have any right to express criticism about a >>>>>>> religion, >>>>>>> which I do not belong to. In that way, I feel I can deride this >>>>>>> majoritarian >>>>>>> tendency of some power hungry individuals to dominate the religion >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> mould >>>>>>> its identity in such a way that it can allow only chosen few things >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> grow. >>>>>>> When several studies are done to explore this religion, find out >>>>>>> finer >>>>>>> aspects where this religion gets fused with local forms of worship, >>>>>>> there >>>>>>> are another set of people trying to shape up a pan-Indian identity of >>>>>>> this >>>>>>> religion by raising issues about an ancient mosque and grandiose plan >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> make a temple and turn it into a tourist spot. Next thing I will know >>>>>>> is >>>>>>> that Ram is tall muscular DC comic like warrior forgetting the >>>>>>> effeminate >>>>>>> imagery of Ram the compassionate one, Tulsidas’ Ram, or Mahatma >>>>>>> Gandhi’s >>>>>>> Ram. Ram, who would not have built a temple by destroying another’s >>>>>>> place >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> worship. Chanchal, don’t you think this is worse than the forced >>>>>>> conversions? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ironically, a generalised statement: “we do not have food to eat” is >>>>>>> difficult to assert about a nation following the logical and >>>>>>> statistical >>>>>>> problems that it may create, But I am surprised that we are >>>>>>> comfortable >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> the blame game of who caused the first religious strife and asserting >>>>>>> generalised opinions about specific community. Call me a communist, >>>>>>> sickular, whatever you want. The struggle is not about religion; it’s >>>>>>> about >>>>>>> being territorial behaving like canines. Who gets to own more land >>>>>>> irrespective of what colour your flag is. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Anupam >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>> >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > From pawan.durani at gmail.com Fri May 8 16:17:07 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Fri, 8 May 2009 16:17:07 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Preserving Identity Through Cuisine Message-ID: <6b79f1a70905080347p2195dae0sdc6378ab560d2e9c@mail.gmail.com> *Preserving Identity through Cuisine* **** *By Bharti Bhan* ** Kashmiris love good food and have great culinary skills. Even a humblest vegetable is transformed into a delicacy. They eat lot of meat and fish to help themselves to tide over harsh winters. Kashmiri cuisine is a product of the native genius. It has evolved over a period of two millennia and has been shaped by the requirements of climate, religious rituals/legends, considerations of health, concept of sooch/siyot (Pure/Impure) and above all the local availability of particular foodstuffs. The cuisine reflects a great variety and has a range for all seasons and occasions. The compartmentalization between *vaishnavite* and non-vaishnavite in Kashmiri Pandit cuisine is complete. During medieval times, after conversion, Muslims adopted in wholesale the Persian and Central Asian influences in food. Be it the menus for feasts/or for daily consumption, the type of spices or combination of vegetables, use of cooking pots etc, Pandits and Muslims have nothing in common. Pandits call their feast *sal, Muslims* say *Wazwan. *Pandits use *Asafoetida-flavour masala, *muslims prefer *garlic-favoured *one. Pandits do not eat *Phari *(whole fish, batter-coated and smoked), Muslims love to eat it. Pandits would not eat chicken or eggs but relished wild fowl and their eggs. Muslims had no problem taking chicken or eggs. There is occasional overlap of some dishes, particularly e.g. *Kabargah *(Muslims have an equivalent in Tabakmaz), *Shabdegh *etc. Either, Pandits have adopted these from Mughlai influences or these dishes could well have been the native ones, which Muslims have persisted with. *Identity in Exile :* During the past few centuries, many Kashmiri Pandit families moved to the plains of northern India, some to seek 'fame and fortune' and others to escape religious persecution. Nearly five hundred such families settled for good in places like Allahabad, Lucknow, Delhi, Lahore, Agra and other places. Over a period of time, due to poor communication links, these families lost contact with their homeland. Occasionally, they brought their *Kul Purohits* to perform religious rituals. Though they built up effective diasporas (Kashmiri mohalla in 18th Century constituted half of Lucknow), yet they suffered from serious uncertainity about their identity. Preserving ethnic identity in exile, particularly for smaller communities, is always a difficult proposition. These Pandit families lost their language. In dress they tried to imitate that of the ruling elites to identify with the ruling clan. *These Pandits kept alive their ethnic identity through the practice of wearing dejhurs, marrying strictly within their own community in diaspora, observing some Kashmiri festivals e.g. navreh (which under Nawabi influence they preferred to call Navroz), Reshi Pir Ka Jug, Shishur Mundi, Devi Ke Din etc.* Emigrant Kashmiri families took great care in preserving their cuisine. This is apparent from the two excellent books on cookery brought out by Pt. Krishna Prasad Dar and Mrs. Sonya Atal Sapru. Migrating from the extreme cold climate of Kashmir to the warmer one in the plains, there was far greater preference for vegetables, legumes and pulses over meat. Cuisine of Nawabi aristocracy (Mughlai) as well as that of common people in the Indo-Gangetic belt also impacted on the ethnic cuisine of emigrant Pandits. However, the core of Kashmiri Pandit cuisine remained intact. *Era of 'Super-Cooks :* As communication links increased in subsequent centuries, these Pandit families took an extra measure to protect their ethnic cuisine. In the early years of 20th century, every other Pandit home in the plains had a professional Kashmiri cook in residence. These masters with great culinary skills were employed for as low wages as Rs 10 per month plus free food, shelter and clothing. They played an important role in sensitising the new generations of emigrant Pandits to ethnic Kashmiri Cuisine. Sudhir Dar the great cartoonist recalls, *"Each meal was an event, each dish a gourmet's delight, every day a royal feast". *Over a period of time, the ladies of the household acquired the culinary skills and became *"as proficient as their gurus'.* Subsequently, as the living costs multiplied many families dispensed with the services of these 'super-cooks'. Also, cooks too became scarce. Some felt home-sick and returned to Kashmir. Others moved to seek better remunerative employment in big hotels. Since the profession of cooking carried social stigma (there cooks came from poor but *Karkun *families), their wards took to education and discarded the profession of their fathers. *'Kashmiri Cooking' *by Pt. Krishna Prasad Dar and *'Zaika' *(which in Urdu means *taste *and *flavour) *by Sonya Atal Sapru fill the void created by the decline of master cooks from Kashmir. *Emigrant Ethnic Cuisine:* Ethnic cuisine of these emigrant Pandits, like Kashmiri Pandits of the Valley persists with the liberal use of aromatic spices, and the avoidance of garlic and onion. Among the non-veg. recipes emigrant Kashmiris have retained many items of native Kashmiri Pandit cuisine - *Kabargah, Roganjosh, Qalia, Shabdegh, Gurde Kapure, Kaleji Khatti (Chok Charvan), Yakhni, Shaljum salan, (Gogji Siyun), Khatti Machli. *Other meat preparations listed in the two books as part of Kashmiri Pandit cuisine look either as improvised versions or simply borrowed from the *Mughlai* cuisine. It is interesting that these non-Kashmiri speaking Pandits continue to call cottage cheese as *Chaman. Dum Alu, Dum Nadru, Nadru Ki Kurkuri, Katte Baingan, Shalum Dal, Haak, Karam Hak, Tao Gugji, Guchchi*-the preparations Kashmiri-speaking Pandits use in daily life, retain popularity with emigrant Pandits. Hogad (Dry fish), *Shami, Demin Nadru, Nahi Qala *etc. are not part of cuisine among old Pandits. There is no mention of *Tehar *(Turmeric-laced Rice), an item prepared on auspicious occasions (Birthday, Slam (Shivratri), Navreh, Ram Navmi) in either of the two books. Bhazbhatta, a mixed vegetable *Pulao*, is, however, described by Pandit Krishna Prasad as *Tehri. *Pt. Krishna Prasad has listed some popular Kashmiri snacks and beverages e.g. Luchai Puri, Roath (even though they do not celebrate Pan now), *Sheermal, Firni, Shakkar Pare, Sheer Chaya, Kehwa*. Old Pandits have a rich traditional Pandit delicacy in the form of *Panjeeri. *This is included in Dar's book. None of the Chutneys used by Valley Pandits e.g. *Marchwangun Chutney*, Doon (walnut) *Chutney* or *Alchi *(apricot) chutney are in use among old Pandits. They also do not prepare *Wari.* Sonya Atal has included some of the old family photographs which throw light on the social life of these wonderful old Pandits. The second edition of *'Kashmiri Cooking', *published after Pt. Krishna Prasad's death carries a fine introduction by Sudhir Dar, the author's talented son. He has ornamented the book with excellent cartoons, drawn to illustrate the art of world famous Muslim Wazwan. One of the cartoons shows Pt. Krishna Prasad's family enjoying ethnic cuisine in Kashmiri Pandit style. With the entire community of Kashmiri Pandits now thrown in exile '*Kashmiri cooking*' and '*Zaika*' serve the interests of the entire Pandit community'. Source: Kashmir Sentinel __._,_.___ From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Fri May 8 16:44:48 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Fri, 8 May 2009 16:44:48 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of ... In-Reply-To: <869610.73762.qm@web94713.mail.in2.yahoo.com> References: <869610.73762.qm@web94713.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1f9180970905080414w1a647996ue8f02953d59954c4@mail.gmail.com> Really a pity that a whole array of poor learners, drop outs,semi- literates and (certainly a few teachers with their side,too!)still dare to 'correct' others with the same old stale 'right' lessons, to get rid of in one stroke, the learning of several years of painstaking researches by historians, and the understanding of defenders of human rights and all others concerned with unity and peace! On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 11:02 AM, Vedavati Jogi wrote: > Dear Javed, > > First let me correct you. Hindus & Muslims have lived together for last > 1000 years because thses muslims are originally indians (may be > hindus-jains-buddhist-.. ) > more than 90% muslims in india are indians because khaljis, tughalaqes, > mughals etc. came here in thousands and not in crores. I have said it before > also that Ram (and not Babar) is their ancestor. > > Social tension in those days was not due to these poor hindus & muslims but > due to Sultans like Aurangzeb and his likes who pulled down Temples, > imposited Jizia, forcibly converted Hindus. People were helpless and Sant > Kabir and Tulasidas tried to pacify them. > > Comparing Arundhati and Tista with these Sant Mahatmas is really a mockery > of History. > > I request you to read authentic books on History and not those books having > leftist or rightist leaning. e.g volumes written by R. C. Mujumdar, Great > Divide written by Hodson, Last phase written by Pyrelal, Sole spokesman by > Ayesha Jalal and many more. > > Muslims were reminded of their separate identity by an Educated Muslim - > Sir Sayyad Ahamad Khan. > > And father of Pakistan - Jinnah was initially a very secular person who had > once expressed his displeasure when Mahatma Gandhi mentioned his religion. > Gandhi had said that " I am really happy that inspite of being a Muslim, > Jinnah is doing so much for Congrass" > > This 'inspite of ' had pretty hurt Mr. Jinnah. When Gandhi started Khilafat > Jinnah was dead against it. Its he who had told Mahatma not to bring > religion into the politics. Jinnah knew Indian muslims had nothing to do > with Khilafat. Jinnah was senior to Gandhi- Nehru in Congress, He was the > trusted man of Lokmanya Tilak. But Mahatma wanted to be the sole spokesman > for Muslims as well as for the country. > > Not religious but political rivalry between Gandhi & Jinnah lead to > partition of india. > > That time (again its a fact) that more 90 % Muslims had > supported Pakistan though ultimately they had to stay in India. Not because > they were supporting secularism but because their daily bread & butter was > in India. > > Seculars rather 'sickulars' keep on reminding Muslims of their separate > identity. 'Hindu bashing' is a must for them for proving their secular > credentials. While for Politicians, muslims are a votebank' > > Which has created gulf between Hindus & Muslims. > > I will not hesitate to say it again - Hindus and Muslims should throw these > seculars out of this country. Which will automatically nullify impact > of Varun Gandhi's rhetorics. > > Vedavati > > --- On Thu, 7/5/09, M Javed wrote: > > > From: M Javed > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of ... > To: "Vedavati Jogi" > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Thursday, 7 May, 2009, 6:25 PM > > > Dear Vedavati > > You are right that Hindus and Muslims have been living together for > 1000 years, but the real reason they lived together was that (despite > the Alauddin Khaljis and Ghaznavis and Aurangzebs) there also existed > in this country certain saner elements in the form of Kabir, Amir > Khusro, Nizamuddin Aulia, Tulsidas, Surdas, Dara Shikoh, Guru Nanak > and so on, who kept making efforts to bring people together at one > platform despite their differences. And let me tell you that it is > these people (Kabir, Nanak, Khusro) who were outcast in those days in > the same fashion as you want to outcast your "sickulars". Yet we > remember such people as the stalwarts of Indian secular tradition and > so on. There may be some issues related to each person, but I consider > people like Arundhati Roy, Teesta Setalvad, Binayak Sen and Safdar > Hashmi as today's Kabirs and Dadu. > > If Hindus and Muslims couldn't survive peacefully in the past without > the intervention of our Sufis and Bhakts, India cannot survive today > without the relentless activism of Setalvad and Swami Agnivesh. I > salute them for keeping the sanity alive. > > Javed > > > On 5/7/09, Vedavati Jogi wrote: > > muslims & hindus need not have to attack eachother. they have been living > > together in this country since last 1000 years. > > but i sincerely feel that both should attack sickulars like arundhati > roy, > > tista, left parties and many more, > > throw them out of this country (along with gandhian and nehruvian models > of > > secularism) > > without which true secularism will not be restored > > vedavati > > > > > > --- On Wed, 6/5/09, yasir ~يا سر wrote: > > > > > > From: yasir ~يا سر > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims > > To: "Sarai Reader-list" > > Date: Wednesday, 6 May, 2009, 11:08 PM > > > > > > dear vedavati > > > > and why would muslims attack hindus in any given context, even IF they > > chose to do so whether on the list or off, in the absence of the > sickulars > > doing so? > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 4:05 PM, Vedavati Jogi > > wrote: > > > >> what you have written is partially correct. > >> muslims need not have to attack 'so called' hindus because that job is > >> done > >> by 'sickulars' on readers-list. > >> > >> vedavati > >> > >> --- On Wed, 6/5/09, Jeebesh wrote: > >> > >> > >> From: Jeebesh > >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims > >> To: "Sarai Reader-list" > >> Date: Wednesday, 6 May, 2009, 12:29 AM > >> > >> > >> dear All, > >> > >> I do not understand how constantly the list members keep attacking the > >> same entity called muslims and indian muslims. Well all attackers call > >> themselves hindus. The viscousness of the attacks baffles me. If they > >> had power and weapons they can do serious damage. > >> > >> On the other hand, i have not seen any person with so called "muslim > >> name" attack a Hindu or Hinduism, on this list. So why does so called > >> Hindus keep attacking muslims in this list. What kind of blood lust is > >> this? > >> > >> Now days Hinduism is a fairly celebrated religion and thousands of > >> publications and places of worship is a sure sign of that. Yet a weird > >> sense of injured self seem to have justified all kind of rabble rousing. > >> > >> Being cautious of authoritarian organization is one thing, but to keep > >> on attacking a group of people is appalling. > >> > >> warmly > >> jeebesh > >> > >> > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: > >> > >> > >> Own a website.Get an unlimited package.Pay next to nothing.*Go to > >> http://in.business.yahoo.com/ > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: > >> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe > > in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > > Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter > > http://beta.cricket.yahoo.com > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe > > in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter > http://beta.cricket.yahoo.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From javedmasoo at gmail.com Sat May 9 10:45:33 2009 From: javedmasoo at gmail.com (M Javed) Date: Sat, 9 May 2009 10:45:33 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Tableeghi Jamaat leaders denounce gunpoint Sharia Message-ID: Tableeghi Jamaat leaders denounce gunpoint Sharia By Inamullah Khattak Monday, 27 Apr, 2009 ISLAMABAD: In an unprecedented move, top leaders of the Tableeghi Jamaat have denounced enforcement of Sharia at gunpoint, religious extremism, militancy and terrorism. Leaders of the Jamaat, who scrupulously avoid speaking on controversial issues, also called for promoting inter-faith harmony, tolerance, human rights, social justice and peace. They were speaking at the conclusion of a three-day congregation near here on Monday. ‘Shariah cannot be enforced at gunpoint,’ declared Haji Abdul Wahab, Amir of the Tableeghi Jamaat, Pakistan. Had that been the case, Allah Almighty would have sent fierce angels to protect prophets and enforce their faiths, he said. The 90-year-old scholar, who left his job as sessions judge in pre-partition India and joined the Jamaat, cited the example of Prophet Mohammad (PBUH), said the Holy Prophet never used force. Instead he spread the word of God only by peaceful means. Haji Abdul Wahab also condemned extremism and militancy in the name of Islam, apparently a reference to the growing trend of Talibanisation and enforcement of Shria in Swat and other areas in the NWFP. The congregation of tens of thousands of people was also addressed by Maulana Jamshaid, Maulana Mohammad Ahmed and Mualana Fahim. ‘Muslims should preach peace, brotherhood and tolerance across the world, including Israel. They must avoid imposing their creed or faith by force because Islam is a religion of peace and promotes tranquillity,’ another scholar told the mammoth gathering. Maulana Mohammad Ahmed, a former educationist, said that Muslims should inspire adherents of other religions by their good moral and social behaviour. People who thought that Shariah could be imposed by force were simpletons, he said. ‘We should reach out to all human beings and guide them out of darkness. Before the advent of Islam, people were so inflexible that they used to bury their daughters without remorse. (But they changed.) Remember …human beings are above other creations of God,’ said Maulana Ahmed, the custodian of the largest seminary of the Tableeghi school of thought in Raiwind near Lahore. The main message of the gathering was that Islam could not be confined to Pakistan or any other geographical area and there was a need to spread the religion of peace in every corner of the world. People from across the country who had converged there pledged that they would continue the mission of spreading Islam across the world. http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/pakistan/12-tableeghi-jamaat-leaders-denounce-gunpoint-sharia--bi-12 From geetaseshu at gmail.com Sat May 9 12:00:07 2009 From: geetaseshu at gmail.com (geeta seshu) Date: Sat, 9 May 2009 12:00:07 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] WSJ on the Indian media - "Want Press Coverage? Give Me Some Money" In-Reply-To: <341380d00905080000i7df7fceocbf5852bc8e05d54@mail.gmail.com> References: <4A0337BB.5050308@ranadasgupta.com> <4A034673.5090603@gmail.com> <341380d00905080000i7df7fceocbf5852bc8e05d54@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6df6732b0905082330u15692103vcf2a1d50df029282@mail.gmail.com> Perhaps reports feared rejoinders earlier when it was considered a black mark on their standards and professionalism. Nowadays, newspapers are pretty brazen in defending their reportage. Some even have special pages for readers' comments and the reporter's defence of some biased reportage. Rank inaccuracy is a different matter and hopefully reporters can still be shamed by inaccuracy. But the issue of coverage for money in this election is bang-on. I could add something a senior editor of a Marathi newspaper said : that even if his paper supported a particular political party, candidates of other parties could hardly complain as they simply paid for equal coverage... Clearly, politics had nothing to do with it...this was pure business! Geeta On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 12:30 PM, anupam chakravartty wrote: > certain other truths about newspapers: > > newspapers essentially buy newsprint from state. > > one newspaper costs Rs 15, while its sold for Rs 3-4 to the reader. > > free press is marginalised by the state and its functionaries. > > a reporter essentially fears a rejoinder. > > > > > On 5/8/09, sukanya ghosh wrote: > > > > Sad but true. It's no surprise to learn of coverage 'bartering' for > > politicians. Seems to me a logical enough step considering that most > > other news coverage can consist of bought spaces. The entertainment > > pages (which unfortunately bleed their way insidiously into most other > > pages) are established norms for this. It seems to me that a 'free > > press' in our country exists in a very marginal way. Someone I met once > > who worked for a leading English language daily told me very pompously > > that 'they' (read 'educated journalist'), had nothing to do with and > > were not to be associated with what the rest of the paper was saying. > > Their reach consisted of being confined to the editorial pages of which > > they were supremely proud of. Never mind that the paper has various > > other pages of 'news', many supplements and an incredibly bad Sunday > > magazine. Are we to be thankful that we have a page of actual reading > > material (some of it occasionally good) and assume the rest is all > > trash? Another leading daily in another city (also English) has in place > > various marketing bundles which allow you to 'purchase' news coverage. > > And these are not covert or shadowy backroom deals - it's all very out > > there for the right buyers. We see newspapers, news channels owned by > > particular organisations who seem to spend a lot of their time exhorting > > the virtues of events / news pertaining to those organisations. And my > > pet grouse, all this while the arts sections keep shrinking in size day > > by day. Where trying to get coverage for an event / exhibition / book > > (no matter how significant) can lead to nail biting finish, wondering if > > the reporter (who has been given detailed press releases) will at least > > get the name right. > > > > The irony being of course that there is no dearth of news of the > > sensational variety if one were to attempt to report just facts in the > > case of Indian politics. But that would mean effort and interest. And > > that surely is lacking in our press coverages. > > > > > > > > > > Rana Dasgupta wrote: > > > Want Press Coverage? Give Me Some Money > > > > > > By PAUL BECKETT > > > > > > Ajay Goyal is a serious, independent candidate contesting for a Lok > > > Sabha seat in Chandigarh. > > > Never heard of him? Neither, probably, have a lot of people in > > > Chandigarh because when it came to getting press coverage for his > > > campaign he was faced with a simple message: If you want press, you > have > > > to pay. > > > > > > So far, he says, he's been approached by about 10 people – some brokers > > > and public relations managers acting on behalf of newspaper owners, > some > > > reporters and editors – with the message that he'll only get written > > > about in the news pages for a fee. We're not talking advertising; we're > > > talking news. > > > > > > One broker offered three weeks of coverage in four newspapers for 10 > > > lakh rupees ($20,000). A reporter and a photographer from a Chandigarh > > > newspaper told him that for 1.5 lakh rupees ($3,000) for them and a > > > further 3 lakh rupees ($6,000) for other reporters, they could > guarantee > > > coverage in up to five newspapers for two weeks. > > > > > > "We would do good coverage for you," he says they told him. All of > those > > > who approached him either were from national Hindi language papers or > > > regional papers, Mr. Goyal says. > > > > > > “You want a front page photo for free? This is something people pay > for.” > > > > > > In one case, he went along to see what would happen: a press release he > > > submitted full of falsehoods – claiming he had campaigned in places he > > > had never been, for instance – ran verbatim. One thing he has never > seen > > > on his real campaign: a reporter there to cover the story. > > > > > > "It's disappointing," Mr. Goyal says. "What good is literacy and > > > education if people have no access to real news, investigation, > > > skepticism or a questioning reporter." > > > > > > At the nexus of corruption in India, the nation's newspapers usually > > > play either vigilante cop exposing wrongdoing in the public interest > (on > > > a good day, at a few publications) or spineless patsy killing stories > on > > > the orders of powerful advertisers. Many papers also engage in > practices > > > that cross the ethical line between advertising and editorial in a way > > > that is opaque, if not downright obscure, to readers. > > > > > > But it is of another order of magnitude to see reporters, editors and > > > newspaper owners holding the democratic process to ransom. A free (in > > > every sense) press is an integral part of a vibrant democracy. A > corrupt > > > press is both symptom and perpetrator of a rotten democracy. > > > > > > "I'm not saying all media is biased but there is a growing sense in > > > people's minds that a lot of the media is biased," says Anil Bairwal, > > > national coordinator of National Election Watch. "Some do it in a > > > sublime manner and some do it openly." > > > > > > So why are we surprised when the voter turnout is so low, despite the > > > much-touted surge of political awareness among the young and > > > post-Mumbai? It's all part and parcel of the public disgust with the > > > political system and the pillars of the Establishment that support that > > > system as well. For every newly-minted reform-minded, politically aware > > > voter, there are probably hundreds of jaded citizens who just decide > the > > > heck with it. > > > > > > How widespread is the practice of pay per say? > > > > > > The best-known English-language dailies typically don't do it so > > > blatantly, candidates and others involved in the elections say. Rather, > > > those papers are more likely to hue closely to one major party or the > > > other, making it tough for candidates who don't fit the papers' view of > > > the world to be heard. But in the Hindi, Urdu and Gujarati media, to > > > name a few, the practice is widespread, candidates say. > > > > > > N. Gopalaswami, retired Chief Election Commissioner, says in an > > > interview, "This is not something that can be ignored. It is not just a > > > few apparent cases, it is much more than that." > > > > > > He has heard of newspapers proferring a rate card - one price for > > > positive coverage, another for not negative coverage. The commission > > > heard complaints in both 2007 and 2008 about candidates being charged > > > for coverage. Among them, the national Communist parties who don't have > > > the deep coffers to spend on campaigns. > > > > > > In Mumbai, a city appropriately geared to commerce, politicians are > > > faced with multiple payment options. Consider these phrases from > > > newspaper editors and brokers, which I culled from campaigners: > > > > > > "You want a front page photo for free? This is something people pay > for." > > > > > > "If you want a picture in there or if you want a story, we have to be > > paid." > > > > > > "We're going to publish the interview, but you need to buy 5,000 copies > > > of our paper." > > > > > > "1.2 lakhs ($2,400) for the next two weeks and I will take care of all > > > that coverage." > > > > > > —Paul Beckett is the WSJ's bureau chief in New Delhi > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > > sukanya ghosh / +91 9831306925 > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From vikharjnu at gmail.com Sat May 9 14:04:17 2009 From: vikharjnu at gmail.com (Vikhar Ahmed) Date: Sat, 9 May 2009 14:04:17 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Tableeghi Jamaat leaders denounce gunpoint Sharia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3dd9e6810905090134v10ca78c7h48d65eeaebb2b290@mail.gmail.com> This is a very interesting development because as the journalist points out - the TJ's venture into anything controversial has no precedent. I have always been curious as to what would happen if TJ started taking a prominent and active stand on political issues. The strength and the amazingly wide network of the TJ rests on the fact that they have been purposely apolitical with an obsessive concern with the private religious sphere of an individual. While I don't agree with this parochial obsession, it is obvious that they have spread so wide because of their complete disassociation with developing a perspective on any political issue. - Vikhar. On 5/9/09, M Javed wrote: > > Tableeghi Jamaat leaders denounce gunpoint Sharia > By Inamullah Khattak > Monday, 27 Apr, 2009 > > ISLAMABAD: In an unprecedented move, top leaders of the Tableeghi > Jamaat have denounced enforcement of Sharia at gunpoint, religious > extremism, militancy and terrorism. > > Leaders of the Jamaat, who scrupulously avoid speaking on > controversial issues, also called for promoting inter-faith harmony, > tolerance, human rights, social justice and peace. > > They were speaking at the conclusion of a three-day congregation near > here on Monday. ‘Shariah cannot be enforced at gunpoint,’ declared > Haji Abdul Wahab, Amir of the Tableeghi Jamaat, Pakistan. > > Had that been the case, Allah Almighty would have sent fierce angels > to protect prophets and enforce their faiths, he said. > > The 90-year-old scholar, who left his job as sessions judge in > pre-partition India and joined the Jamaat, cited the example of > Prophet Mohammad (PBUH), said the Holy Prophet never used force. > Instead he spread the word of God only by peaceful means. > > Haji Abdul Wahab also condemned extremism and militancy in the name of > Islam, apparently a reference to the growing trend of Talibanisation > and enforcement of Shria in Swat and other areas in the NWFP. > > The congregation of tens of thousands of people was also addressed by > Maulana Jamshaid, Maulana Mohammad Ahmed and Mualana Fahim. > > ‘Muslims should preach peace, brotherhood and tolerance across the > world, including Israel. They must avoid imposing their creed or faith > by force because Islam is a religion of peace and promotes > tranquillity,’ another scholar told the mammoth gathering. > > Maulana Mohammad Ahmed, a former educationist, said that Muslims > should inspire adherents of other religions by their good moral and > social behaviour. People who thought that Shariah could be imposed by > force were simpletons, he said. > > ‘We should reach out to all human beings and guide them out of > darkness. Before the advent of Islam, people were so inflexible that > they used to bury their daughters without remorse. (But they changed.) > Remember …human beings are above other creations of God,’ said Maulana > Ahmed, the custodian of the largest seminary of the Tableeghi school > of thought in Raiwind near Lahore. > > The main message of the gathering was that Islam could not be confined > to Pakistan or any other geographical area and there was a need to > spread the religion of peace in every corner of the world. > > People from across the country who had converged there pledged that > they would continue the mission of spreading Islam across the world. > > > http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/pakistan/12-tableeghi-jamaat-leaders-denounce-gunpoint-sharia--bi-12 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From vedavati_jogi at yahoo.com Sat May 9 14:38:14 2009 From: vedavati_jogi at yahoo.com (Vedavati Jogi) Date: Sat, 9 May 2009 14:38:14 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of ... Message-ID: <820098.47498.qm@web94715.mail.in2.yahoo.com> i didn't know that r.c. mujumdar and others mentioned in my mail were semiliterates, poor learners etc. i think only leftists have right to interpret the history the way they want. vedavati --- On Fri, 8/5/09, Venugopalan K M wrote: From: Venugopalan K M Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of ... To: "sarai-list" Date: Friday, 8 May, 2009, 7:14 PM Really a pity that a whole array of poor learners, drop outs,semi- literates   and (certainly a few teachers with their side,too!)still dare to 'correct' others with the same old stale 'right' lessons, to get rid of in one stroke, the learning of several years of painstaking researches by  historians, and the understanding of defenders of human rights and all others concerned with unity and peace! On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 11:02 AM, Vedavati Jogi wrote: > Dear Javed, > > First let me correct you. Hindus & Muslims have lived together for last > 1000 years because thses muslims are originally indians (may be > hindus-jains-buddhist-.. ) > more than 90% muslims in india are indians because khaljis, tughalaqes, > mughals etc. came here in thousands and not in crores. I have said it before > also that Ram (and not Babar) is  their ancestor. > > Social tension in those days was not due to these poor hindus & muslims but > due to Sultans like Aurangzeb and his likes who pulled down Temples, > imposited  Jizia, forcibly converted Hindus. People were helpless and Sant > Kabir and Tulasidas tried to pacify them. > > Comparing Arundhati and Tista with these Sant Mahatmas is really a mockery > of History. > > I request you to read authentic books on History and not those books having > leftist or rightist leaning. e.g  volumes written by R. C. Mujumdar, Great > Divide written by Hodson, Last phase written by Pyrelal, Sole spokesman by > Ayesha Jalal and many more. > > Muslims were reminded of their separate identity by an Educated Muslim - > Sir Sayyad Ahamad Khan. > > And father of Pakistan - Jinnah was initially a very secular person who had > once expressed his displeasure when Mahatma Gandhi mentioned his religion.. > Gandhi had said that " I am really happy that inspite of being a Muslim, > Jinnah is doing  so much for Congrass" > > This 'inspite of ' had pretty hurt Mr. Jinnah. When Gandhi started Khilafat > Jinnah was dead against it. Its he who had told Mahatma not to bring > religion into the politics. Jinnah knew Indian muslims had nothing to do > with Khilafat. Jinnah was senior to Gandhi- Nehru in Congress, He was the > trusted man of Lokmanya Tilak. But Mahatma wanted to be the sole spokesman > for Muslims as well as for the country. > > Not religious but political rivalry between Gandhi & Jinnah lead to > partition of india. > > That time (again its a fact) that more 90 % Muslims had > supported Pakistan  though ultimately they had to stay in India. Not because > they were supporting secularism but because their daily bread & butter was > in India. > > Seculars rather 'sickulars' keep on reminding Muslims of their separate > identity. 'Hindu bashing' is a must for them for proving their secular > credentials. While  for  Politicians, muslims are a votebank' > > Which has created gulf between Hindus & Muslims. > > I will not hesitate to say it again - Hindus and Muslims should throw these > seculars out of this country. Which will automatically nullify impact > of Varun Gandhi's rhetorics. > > Vedavati > > --- On Thu, 7/5/09, M Javed wrote: > > > From: M Javed > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of ... > To: "Vedavati Jogi" > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Thursday, 7 May, 2009, 6:25 PM > > > Dear Vedavati > > You are right that Hindus and Muslims have been living together for > 1000 years, but the real reason they lived together was that (despite > the Alauddin Khaljis and Ghaznavis and Aurangzebs) there also existed > in this country certain saner elements in the form of Kabir, Amir > Khusro, Nizamuddin Aulia, Tulsidas, Surdas, Dara Shikoh, Guru Nanak > and so on, who kept making efforts to bring people together at one > platform despite their differences. And let me tell you that it is > these people (Kabir, Nanak, Khusro) who were outcast in those days in > the same fashion as you want to outcast your "sickulars". Yet we > remember such people as the stalwarts of Indian secular tradition and > so on. There may be some issues related to each person, but I consider > people like Arundhati Roy, Teesta Setalvad, Binayak Sen and Safdar > Hashmi as today's Kabirs and Dadu. > > If Hindus and Muslims couldn't survive peacefully in the past without > the intervention of our Sufis and Bhakts, India cannot survive today > without the relentless activism of Setalvad and Swami Agnivesh. I > salute them for keeping the sanity alive. > > Javed > > > On 5/7/09, Vedavati Jogi wrote: > > muslims & hindus need not have to attack eachother. they have been living > > together in this country since last 1000 years. > > but i sincerely feel that both should attack sickulars like arundhati > roy, > > tista, left parties and many more, > > throw them out of this country (along with gandhian and nehruvian models > of > > secularism) > > without which true secularism will not be restored > > vedavati > > > > > > --- On Wed, 6/5/09, yasir ~يا سر wrote: > > > > > > From: yasir ~يا سر > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims > > To: "Sarai Reader-list" > > Date: Wednesday, 6 May, 2009, 11:08 PM > > > > > > dear vedavati > > > > and why would muslims attack hindus in any given context, even  IF they > > chose to do so whether on the list or off, in the absence of the > sickulars > > doing so? > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 4:05 PM, Vedavati Jogi > > wrote: > > > >> what you have written is partially correct. > >> muslims need not have to attack 'so called' hindus because that job is > >> done > >> by 'sickulars' on readers-list. > >> > >> vedavati > >> > >> --- On Wed, 6/5/09, Jeebesh wrote: > >> > >> > >> From: Jeebesh > >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims > >> To: "Sarai Reader-list" > >> Date: Wednesday, 6 May, 2009, 12:29 AM > >> > >> > >> dear All, > >> > >> I do not understand how constantly the list members keep attacking the > >> same entity called muslims and indian muslims. Well all attackers call > >> themselves hindus. The viscousness of the attacks baffles me. If they > >> had power and weapons they can do serious damage. > >> > >> On the other hand, i have not seen any person with so called "muslim > >> name" attack a Hindu or Hinduism, on this list.  So why does so called > >> Hindus keep attacking muslims in this list. What kind of blood lust is > >> this? > >> > >> Now days Hinduism is a fairly celebrated religion and thousands of > >> publications and places of worship is a sure sign of that. Yet a weird > >> sense of injured self seem to have justified all kind of rabble rousing. > >> > >> Being cautious of authoritarian organization is one thing, but to keep > >> on attacking a group of people is appalling. > >> > >> warmly > >> jeebesh > >> > >> > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: > >> > >> > >>       Own a website.Get an unlimited package.Pay next to nothing.*Go to > >> http://in.business.yahoo.com/ > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: > >> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe > > in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > >       Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter > > http://beta.cricket.yahoo.com > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe > > in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > >      Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter > http://beta.cricket.yahoo.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter http://beta.cricket.yahoo.com From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sat May 9 14:42:20 2009 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sat, 9 May 2009 14:42:20 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] A DESIRE TO RELIVE - Jamia student shares his experience of forced exodus from Kashmir Message-ID: <6353c690905090212w7386b47yff9b77ebaa86cc30@mail.gmail.com> A DESIRE TO RELIVE *Ranish Hangloo Childhood Blues continue to haunt* *A journalism student of Jamia AJK MCRC, recollects the time of gory forced exodus from his homeland - Kashmir.* ** *Link - http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/2009/05/desire-to-relive.html * ** *January 1990*, I had just started to crawl when communal forces broke legend long relations and compelled one of the oldest civilized communities to leave the saffron valley. Along with my parents, I traveled 350 kilometers in a fiat car from south Kashmir to city of temples, Jammu. A deafening silence kept filling each passing kilometer. Moving towards south of Jawahar tunnel, nature started adjusting its color for an undesirable change. Slowly the chinars turned into pines and then finally eucalyptus. Mercury started expanding. As soon as we reached Hari palace, I woke up in my mothers lap saying “mummy tresh” (Mother I am thirsty, give me water). Months passed on and my growing steps saw the lines stretch on my father’s forehead. Finances started bothering us on each day of the calendar. Everyone around was searching for any possible keyholes of survival. I remember, each morning some or the other fellow being used to come to the door shouting- ‘paksa relief commisionery’ (‘let’s go to Relief commissioner’s office’). No one realized that this relief commisionary would become a parliament for minority section of Kashmir. *read the complete write up at - http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/2009/05/desire-to-relive.html* Comments are welcome on the blog! thanks Aditya Raj Kaul *On behalf of Team - Roots In Kashmir* *PS - Ranish* *can be reached at **ranishhangloo at gmail.com* From rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com Sat May 9 15:23:01 2009 From: rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com (Rajen Uppinangadi) Date: Sat, 9 May 2009 15:23:01 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] media coverage and money value for coverage, visual media is not far behind. Message-ID: <61164a90905090253u57824674k1dfc6a6d6d2276b2@mail.gmail.com> Hi, all, the news about media coverage for a price in this elections is not surprising at all, visual media and its anchors partisan behaviour is open for all to see. The media which showed the alleged speech of Varun every half an hour for 24 x7 for full 5 days, did not bother to show more than once the actual talk and speech of Srinivas, the president of Andhra Pradesh Congress committe who said he will chop heads off of all those who spoke about the anti national behaviours of muslims.Kagodu Thimmappa , a senior minister of Congress of the olden goldies openly said he would chop and cut to pieces any hindu who spoke ill of anti nationals.Lalu who treated badly of the journalists, photo journalists did not get any reprimand from visual media for this behaviour, but if the same was to be seen from any bjp member,it would be sensational news for the media with lots of song and dance sequences by rajdeep and sagarika, special discussions by Arnab, irem songs byBbarkha.? That sickular media has different yard sticks for bjp and sickularpolitical parties is obivious, even scholars like Yogendra yadav is victim of this yard stick, loosing his credibilty with the company that he keeps.? The scholar in Yoginder is at aloss to explain the partisan coverage of cnnibn and at times we can feel his loss of words.! Regards, rajen. From delhi.yunus at gmail.com Sat May 9 16:27:16 2009 From: delhi.yunus at gmail.com (Syed Yunus) Date: Sat, 9 May 2009 16:27:16 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] media coverage and money value for coverage, visual media is not far behind. In-Reply-To: <61164a90905090253u57824674k1dfc6a6d6d2276b2@mail.gmail.com> References: <61164a90905090253u57824674k1dfc6a6d6d2276b2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hello Rajen, You mean to say that any media person/scholar who will write about the anti social Philosophy Propaganda and Practices of BJP/ hindutva regime will not only loose his/her credibility but also of the company he/she keeps. Quite a yard stick you have developed ! regards, Yunus On 5/9/09, Rajen Uppinangadi wrote: > > Hi, all, > the news about media coverage for a price in this elections is not > surprising at all, visual media and its anchors partisan behaviour is open > for all to see. The media which showed the alleged speech of Varun every > half an hour for 24 x7 for full 5 days, did not bother to show more than > once the actual talk and speech of Srinivas, the president of Andhra > Pradesh > Congress committe who said he will chop heads off of all those who spoke > about the anti national behaviours of muslims.Kagodu Thimmappa , a senior > minister of Congress of the olden goldies openly said he would chop and cut > to pieces any hindu who spoke ill of anti nationals.Lalu who treated badly > of the journalists, photo journalists did not get any reprimand from visual > media for this behaviour, but if the same was to be seen from any bjp > member,it would be sensational news for the media with lots of song and > dance sequences by rajdeep and sagarika, special discussions by Arnab, irem > songs byBbarkha.? > That sickular media has different yard sticks for bjp and > sickularpolitical parties is obivious, even scholars like Yogendra yadav is > victim of this yard stick, loosing his credibilty with the company that he > keeps.? > The scholar in Yoginder is at aloss to explain the partisan coverage of > cnnibn and at times we can feel his loss of words.! > > Regards, rajen. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Change is the only constant in life ! From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sat May 9 17:44:40 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sat, 9 May 2009 05:14:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: siliguri In-Reply-To: <489057.44274.qm@web94703.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <389674.13581.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Subhrodip   As far as I know, the Gorkha "Jan Mukti Morcha" is not a separatist group.   As far as I know, they are looking for a separate administrative unit, a State within India.   Kshmendra  --- On Thu, 5/7/09, subhrodip sengupta wrote: From: subhrodip sengupta Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: siliguri To: "Readers list Yousuf Sarai." Date: Thursday, May 7, 2009, 7:23 PM   Off course I'm yet to verify whether these people are from Gorkha regiment. They were wearing white shirts and not Uniform. There are members of off course the Gorkha Jana Mukti Morcha, a seperatist group, these people could be it's members, and this body of late has been using over-riding powers than the constitutional setup. But of using violent force I know not. The man injured was of Police and there is something to do with him in this hecckling. The crux of the matter is domination whether present or ex-army man or not is not the question. On the Voting eve I saw able bodied men with semi-automated weapons and black wiel over their heads so many of them you may call them Commando's, but to me any heavy display of arms in public is bad. In this sense I'd like to differ from many of my brothers who believe you and the nation is one, you and these fearful people should be in harmony, because I am a stake holder I have a spirit and society means not Government and it's people. My concern is by giving power, one can not cure the spirit. Indeed two things I found funny: a> That people collectively as well as Individually, I'd draw from neo-classical ideology because individual comes to cost-bearing, can not help it, and collectiveness comes to benefit; have grown so submersive and unconscious of their rights and thus rights of their near and dear ones. When two male officers arrest a woman no-one intervenes. Who wants to be framed a terrorist, NOT MANY! b> These brave Commando's, with due respect at their valour,physique and skills, I saw them today directing the mob from a distance by sign language. They too are afraid to die! Inspite of having heavy weaponry! These guys who act as mere agents know the state means only a piece of terrirory sans it's people and thus licensed and immune, they proceed to vent their animal spirits.. This is what we call is maintaining spirits of army?  Off course these are brave people, who are willing to lay their lives on their own interests, be it RAW or ISI both sohould be respected. Or not, there should be endless battle and Violence, and repress feelings of progress. May be individuals want to fragment India was not possible, nor Soviet, nor Pakistan nor US. Hatred is more powerful than harmony and progress, or is it because there is no material or natural backing, but barriers purpoted to aggravate violence? ----- Forwarded Message ---- From: yasir ~يا سر To: Sarai Reader-list Sent: Wednesday, 6 May, 2009 10:03:31 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] siliguri ok. the title is : * Lathi Charge in Siliguri against Indian Gorkha Regiment by West Bengal Police* how can the police beat up the Indian Gorkha Regiment ??* *isn't it more common the other way round. you cant mess with the army?* * On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 3:23 PM, subhrodip sengupta wrote: > What else than the police seeking revenge, and using muscle power and human > right violation as tools to establish their supremacy! > >  ------------------------------ > *From:* yasir ~يا سر > *To:* sarai list > *Sent:* Tuesday, 5 May, 2009 4:05:25 PM > *Subject:* [Reader-list] siliguri > > so what is going on here?  i dont understand the title. best. > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvaCr1lPD6k > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > ------------------------------ > Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter now! > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Now surf faster and smarter ! Check out the new Firefox 3 - Yahoo! Edition http://downloads.yahoo.com/in/firefox/?fr=om_email_firefox _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sat May 9 17:54:07 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sat, 9 May 2009 05:24:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: siliguri In-Reply-To: <389674.13581.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <930803.17976.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Subhrodip   Please ignore the earlier mail of mine.   In a subsequent mail, you have mentioned more precisely the ambit of "Gorkhaland" which is subscribed to by the Gorkha "Jan Mukti Morcha". I presume the earlier reference to their being "separatists" was with reference to West Bengal alone    Kshmendra  --- On Sat, 5/9/09, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: From: Kshmendra Kaul Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fw: siliguri To: "Readers list Yousuf Sarai." , "subhrodip sengupta" Date: Saturday, May 9, 2009, 5:44 PM Dear Subhrodip   As far as I know, the Gorkha "Jan Mukti Morcha" is not a separatist group.   As far as I know, they are looking for a separate administrative unit, a State within India.   Kshmendra  --- On Thu, 5/7/09, subhrodip sengupta wrote: From: subhrodip sengupta Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: siliguri To: "Readers list Yousuf Sarai." Date: Thursday, May 7, 2009, 7:23 PM   Off course I'm yet to verify whether these people are from Gorkha regiment. They were wearing white shirts and not Uniform. There are members of off course the Gorkha Jana Mukti Morcha, a seperatist group, these people could be it's members, and this body of late has been using over-riding powers than the constitutional setup. But of using violent force I know not. The man injured was of Police and there is something to do with him in this hecckling. The crux of the matter is domination whether present or ex-army man or not is not the question. On the Voting eve I saw able bodied men with semi-automated weapons and black wiel over their heads so many of them you may call them Commando's, but to me any heavy display of arms in public is bad. In this sense I'd like to differ from many of my brothers who believe you and the nation is one, you and these fearful people should be in harmony, because I am a stake holder I have a spirit and society means not Government and it's people. My concern is by giving power, one can not cure the spirit. Indeed two things I found funny: a> That people collectively as well as Individually, I'd draw from neo-classical ideology because individual comes to cost-bearing, can not help it, and collectiveness comes to benefit; have grown so submersive and unconscious of their rights and thus rights of their near and dear ones. When two male officers arrest a woman no-one intervenes. Who wants to be framed a terrorist, NOT MANY! b> These brave Commando's, with due respect at their valour,physique and skills, I saw them today directing the mob from a distance by sign language. They too are afraid to die! Inspite of having heavy weaponry! These guys who act as mere agents know the state means only a piece of terrirory sans it's people and thus licensed and immune, they proceed to vent their animal spirits.. This is what we call is maintaining spirits of army?  Off course these are brave people, who are willing to lay their lives on their own interests, be it RAW or ISI both sohould be respected. Or not, there should be endless battle and Violence, and repress feelings of progress. May be individuals want to fragment India was not possible, nor Soviet, nor Pakistan nor US. Hatred is more powerful than harmony and progress, or is it because there is no material or natural backing, but barriers purpoted to aggravate violence? ----- Forwarded Message ---- From: yasir ~يا سر To: Sarai Reader-list Sent: Wednesday, 6 May, 2009 10:03:31 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] siliguri ok. the title is : * Lathi Charge in Siliguri against Indian Gorkha Regiment by West Bengal Police* how can the police beat up the Indian Gorkha Regiment ??* *isn't it more common the other way round. you cant mess with the army?* * On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 3:23 PM, subhrodip sengupta wrote: > What else than the police seeking revenge, and using muscle power and human > right violation as tools to establish their supremacy! > >  ------------------------------ > *From:* yasir ~يا سر > *To:* sarai list > *Sent:* Tuesday, 5 May, 2009 4:05:25 PM > *Subject:* [Reader-list] siliguri > > so what is going on here?  i dont understand the title. best. > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvaCr1lPD6k > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > ------------------------------ > Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter now! > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Now surf faster and smarter ! Check out the new Firefox 3 - Yahoo! Edition http://downloads.yahoo.com/in/firefox/?fr=om_email_firefox _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sat May 9 19:12:13 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sat, 9 May 2009 06:42:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] "Indian Muslims: Moderation And Extremism" (from INDIAN MUSLIMS.IN) In-Reply-To: <341380d00905070704je9c393eg8b29d920692eed5c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <688973.34907.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Anupam   Thanks for sharing this article.   I thought that it was extremely unfortunate that Ajmal Kasab's defence lawyer, Abbas Kazmi has been ostracised by those who have done so. Shiv Sena's (and others') attack on the earlier lawyer Anjali Waghmare was reprehensible and so is this different kind of an attack on Abbas Kazmi.   Ironically, some of the most voluble voices who are insistent that Ajmal Kasab should get a proper defence are friends and family of those who lost their lives in the Mumbai Attacks.   Abbas Kazmi is doing his duty as a Lawyer. Every accused has the right to receive a defence no matter how overwhelmingly obvious to the public eye might be evidence testifying guilt.     In such situations it is especially tough on Muslims because a sober evaluation of the actual circumstances gets clouded by "Oh! Suspicious! Suspicious! It is a Muslim!". How sad and unfortunate. How shallow a country we have become.   Kshmendra   --- On Thu, 5/7/09, anupam chakravartty wrote: From: anupam chakravartty Subject: Re: [Reader-list] "Indian Muslims: Moderation And Extremism" (from INDIAN MUSLIMS.IN) To: "sarai list" Date: Thursday, May 7, 2009, 7:34 PM *Hear the new voices* Aijaz Ilmi Thu, May 7 02:51 AM Instead of convulsing purposelessly, as it has done on numerous occasions in the past, the Indian Muslim community is slowly but surely undergoing a subtle transformation. Sensing the mood of the community, even the religious leaders — the Ulemas — are speaking the language of constitutionalism. Dar-ul Ifta, the fatwa-giving arm of Deoband's Dar-ul Uloom spoke of the value of "neutral" voting in the elections. The spokesperson said that Indian Muslims must vote not on religious lines but as citizens of a secular democracy. No directive to influence the voter towards any particular party could be seen in their statement: "Please vote for an individual or party that has interests of India and the Muslims too." Indeed, clearly linking the interest of Indian Muslims with the interests of India as a whole is a welcome signal, signifying inclusive secular guidance for India's minorities. Steeped in a volatile mix of anger and destitution, subject to being "suspect" for far too long, Indian Muslim communities are finally showing signs of fighting back against preconceived prejudices. When respected Ulemas start to speak out about secular traditions and democratic structures, a strategic shift based on community feedback is apparent. Whether this wave of positivity will turn into a tsunami of inter-cultural bonding is yet to be assessed. The unceremonious dumping of Ajmal Kasab's lawyer Abbas Kazmi by many community institutions — such as the Islam Gymkhana in Bombay — is best be read as another signal from the community to distance itself from terror. The earlier statement denouncing him from the local Shi'a council ("Defending a terrorist is also against the essence and teaching of Islam") should be seen as a precursor to the avalanche of protest that will continue to follow Kazmi. Those of liberal views might justifiably baulk: the Constitution of our country, and its time-tested judicial system, insist on presenting a fair defence for all accused; but it nevertheless is the case that the community is making a sincere effort to de-link itself from the misguided brand of Islam that the Taliban and the Indian Mujahideen propagate. These are signals that need to be read, especially by the young, the liberal, opinion-makers and the educated among Indian Muslims. They must internalise what these signals mean and assert themselves further in the country's fight against all forces of terror and deprivation. Since the shilanyas and Babri Masjid issue culminated in large-scale riots post-demolition, India's Muslims have languished in a cocoon of insecurity. Afraid of being targeted repeatedly, of having their patriotism questioned, they sulked in silence, feeling let down by their own political and religious leadership. In the last five years, post-NDA, concerns have shifted; the spotlight now is on their own status, both economic and educational. Higher school enrolment in the last five years, by almost six to eight per cent, both at primary and secondary levels, is suggestive. It means there's a crying need to reach out by establishing a large number of schools and vocational institutes — and, indeed, the provision of credit facilities to bring them out of their self-made cocoon. A young graduate from AMU said recently: "Do not look at the Muslims as a religious minority but as a component of the deprived majority." After 60 years, the debate is at last changing: security, development and education is the new mantra. Political rabble-rousers might end up as political rubble unless they address these basic concerns. The successful Kerala model of education, which consists of a large number of institutes of higher learning open to all sections of society, must be replicated in North India. Such institutions will ensure both greater intermingling and the provision of quality education to the needier sections of society. In fact, in Kerala, both the Nair education society and Indian Union Muslim League-supported minority trusts compete to endow the greater number of schools. Given that Indian Muslims are employed in disproportionately large numbers as artisans and in running small establishments, the global recession has added a greater sense of urgency to their future. The desire to be educated and be counted should be complemented by the haves in the community. Recent ads in the media — apparently from the BSP in East Delhi — exhorting Muslims to vote for "revenge" over the Gujarat riots are seen as likely to backfire, and indeed as being in bad taste. A party that swears by the empowerment of the deprived sections of society would do well to set up centres of learning rather than promise revenge. The Muslims of the country are mature enough to understand that it is only in an inclusive, secular country like India that a Yusuf Khan can succeed as Dilip Kumar and a Dileep Kumar can succeed as Allah Rakha Rahman. Are India's political parties listening to the new voices within the community? The writer is chairman of the editorial board at the Kanpur-based Urdu newspaper 'Daily Siyasat Jadid' On 5/7/09, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > Article can be accessed at > > http://indianmuslims.in/indian-muslims-moderation-extremism/ > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sat May 9 19:35:03 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sat, 9 May 2009 07:05:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims In-Reply-To: <341380d00905070728hfdf4e1brf22f4ad979b6ce74@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <127166.32941.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Anupam   For more than a few months, I had a close association with Safdar Hashmi.   My memory of him is of a patient man, always with a smile on his face; A 'shy boy' smile. He was a mild man; reached out to everyone. Never saw him enraged.   Regarding other points. My comment on 'identity crisis' (being mistaken for Chanchal) was a light-hearted one (as I had mentioned). Never sensed any attack on me from you.   Take care   Kshmendra --- On Thu, 5/7/09, anupam chakravartty wrote: From: anupam chakravartty Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims To: "sarai list" Date: Thursday, May 7, 2009, 7:58 PM dear kshmendra, i would not have taken chanchal's name in the mail if it were your comments. in case if there is any miscommunication on my part, i apologise. but yes that mail was written in a fit of rage and frustration. and yes i have every right to say which topic should be discussed in this reader's list as i am a reader. i welcome moderator's intervention. besides that i have nothing much to say. i said what i could what i am capable of. enough has been said. bipin went overboard saying things against safdar hashmi, which was very very unfortunate. i never thought someone could stoop to such levels. so you can at least forgive for making any intentional/unintentional attack on you. i guess you can. with regards and apologies anupam On 5/7/09, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > Dear Anupam > > You foist on me an identity crisis. You start of by addressing me by my > name and towards the end call me Chanchal. But you are not alone in such > abuse. Inder elsewhere compared me with Modi. (Please treat this as a very > lighthearted comment). > > Anupam one cannot impose or be selective in wishing what topics > are discussed on this List or to what extent. Only Moderator intervention > can ensure that. > > Any topic or issue on which there is public discourse can find it's way in > this public space too. > > Let me tell you in all sincerity (if you can trust such a declaration by > me) that I do understand the spirit of what you have stated. But, I think > you are being unreasonable. > > Since we easily lose perspective of where a particulat thread has started, > I was not talking about Indian Muslims but the Islamic Flag used by Indian > Muslims. In retrospect, I could have said "Islamic Flag used by SOME Indian > Muslims". That would have been an idiotically unneccesary distinction to > stress upon but perhaps that is what I should have done. One learns. > > But, if someone chooses to divert a topic to a direction of their own > choosing, they will use any excuse. That is exactly what happened by Javed > asking me "Who is an Indian Muslim?" > > Hell my friend (not you AC) that might be a topic of interest to you but > here I am talking about the Islam Flag used by Indian Muslims AND the close > resemblance it bears to the Pakistani Flag AND the misunderstandings it > causes. Aisa Hota Hai (It happens) > > Again the Assam Bodo-Muslim / Pakistani Flag topic was of interest to you > AC and you picked on that just because I said that even AC made a mistake > over the Flag dictinctions. In your case I benefitted from your very > interesting comments on that particular issue. > > This issue of "Who Indian Muslim, What Indian Muslim, Why Indian Muslim" > might provide intellectual fodder for some but that Identity Type is one > which is in the public space of discourse. > > I posted 3 article from a Web forum, guess what it is called - INDIAN > MUSLIMS. All 3 article dealt with issues concerning guess who - INDIAN > MUSLIMS. Guess who has authored them - INDIAN MUSLIMS. > > I do agree that one cannot reduce every issue that might be unique in its > dimensions (even though it might arise from one common Identity Type) to > being applicable as a comment about everyone belonging to that Identity > Type. But at the same time it would idiotic to dismiss that certain > references (even as every single individual in that Identity Type might not > subscribe to it) can be mentioned as a generalisation about that Identity > Type. > > If I were to say "For centuries now Hindus have allowed or been exploited > by the most degraded and inhuman precepts to be propagated and practiced in > the name of a presumed Dharmshastra called Manu Smriti", it would be idiotic > for anyone to respond with "Who Hindu, What Hindu, Why Hindu, answer that > before we tell you whether we agree with you or not" > > Khair, Aisa Hota Hai (It happens). It happens when there is no intent to > seriously think over an issue but instead subvert. > > As I told you earlier I do understand the spirit of what you have stated. I > have no strong disagreement with the rest of your mail, though my attitude > is different from yours regarding " Do you think we, as a nation, are ready > to discuss religion ....." AND "I do not have any right to express criticism > about a religion, which I do not belong to." > > I will not dwell on those. > > Kshmendra > > > --- On *Wed, 5/6/09, anupam chakravartty * wrote: > > > From: anupam chakravartty > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Islamic Flag of Indian Muslims > To: "sarai list" > Date: Wednesday, May 6, 2009, 8:26 PM > > Dear Kshmendra, > > > > I have just one problem when such issues are being raised. Why are we > discussing Indian Muslims as a whole because a relief camp in some corner of > this country facing an ethnic conflict? Do you think we, as a nation, are > ready to discuss religion when it is in such a fragile state having clowns > as leaders? Hardening of religious identities are taking precedence over the > basic amenities that a person, a human being, deserves in this country. My > sole objective is to dispel this hardening of our religious identities. And > obviously, keeping in mind the hardening of Hindu identity, which is > scattered worries me more. I feel in process of hardening Hindu identity it > would loose its very essence, its intangible, meditative nature, which one > can experience without even going to a temple. I am equally scared of the > hardening of Muslim identity in the country. > > > > However, I am a Hindu by birth, so I shall only be criticizing, questioning > my faith. I do not have any right to express criticism about a religion, > which I do not belong to. In that way, I feel I can deride this majoritarian > tendency of some power hungry individuals to dominate the religion and mould > its identity in such a way that it can allow only chosen few things to grow. > When several studies are done to explore this religion, find out finer > aspects where this religion gets fused with local forms of worship, there > are another set of people trying to shape up a pan-Indian identity of this > religion by raising issues about an ancient mosque and grandiose plan to > make a temple and turn it into a tourist spot. Next thing I will know is > that Ram is tall muscular DC comic like warrior forgetting the effeminate > imagery of Ram the compassionate one, Tulsidas’ Ram, or Mahatma Gandhi’s > Ram. Ram, who would not have built a temple by destroying another’s place of > worship. Chanchal, don’t you think this is worse than the forced > conversions? > > > > Ironically, a generalised statement: “we do not have food to eat” is > difficult to assert about a nation following the logical and statistical > problems that it may create, But I am surprised that we are comfortable in > the blame game of who caused the first religious strife and asserting > generalised opinions about specific community. Call me a communist, > sickular, whatever you want. The struggle is not about religion; it’s about > being territorial behaving like canines. Who gets to own more land > irrespective of what colour your flag is. > > > Anupam > > > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From c.anupam at gmail.com Sat May 9 21:58:59 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Sat, 9 May 2009 21:58:59 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Varun Gandhi and Sterilisation Message-ID: <341380d00905090928j860e05dr1c09ec841e331af1@mail.gmail.com> *Varun's comments on sterilisation his personal views: BJP* BJP distanced itself from the reported comments of its leader Varun Gandhi that he supported forced sterilisation as ordered by his father Sanjay Gandhi during national emergency, saying these were his "personal views". "What Varun Gandhi has said about forced sterilisation may be his personal views. The BJP encourages and promotes family planning but does not support any policy of forced sterilisations," said BJP spokesperson Siddharth Nath Singh. Earlier, Varun Gandhi, whose hate speeches landed had him in jail, has stirred further controversy by favouring revival of his father Sanjay Gandhi's compulsory sterilisation policy. The BJP candidate from Pilibhit Lok Sabha constituency also favoured "compulsory military service" for all Indians. In an interview to 'The Daily Telegraph', Varun said he hoped to follow in his father's footsteps by offering strong leadership which, according to him, India lacked for 20 years. Politics, the 29-year-old fire-brand BJP leader said, was his destiny, and added: "Anyone who says they have no ambition to achieve power at some stage is lying." Besides reviving the forced sterilisation policy, Varun said he would also propose a bill in parliament to introduce compulsory military service for all Indians to unite the country and overcome caste and religious differences. "Instead of people thinking of themselves as Tamils or Brahmins, they should think of themselves as Indians," he said. Referring to his recent controversial remarks, Varun denied threatening Muslims, but had vowed to protect local people from "anti-social" elements after three local girls were reportedly gang-raped. As he toured his constituency in a convoy accompanied by armed guards, he made a clear reference to his controversial stand when he told voters that he was "fighting for your self-respect. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Varuns-comments-on-forced-sterilisation-his-personal-views-BJP/articleshow/4503278.cms ** From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Sat May 9 22:50:30 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Sat, 9 May 2009 22:50:30 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: Fw: The Mango Tree Message-ID: <182159.61286.qm@web94703.mail.in2.yahoo.com>   Dear Inder(and all),                     Sorry for bringing a Spectre into the forum. In fact to me, all learning should start afresh, rather than decay and rust over lifetime.. Last time I felt uncomfortable, once I went over your reply. A splendid one compelling in form. But, I need to clarify what I meant in the problem.... In so far the distribution system is concerned, we can easily look at endowment failures but somewhere we fail to find the hidden enemy in a series of hallucinations. Not because only marx beived it to be so. I said I wanted to study what keeps these facilities in such and such distribution system in markets. Truely a production agreement, a political agreement, sustainable under given scale and production relations. That is, one has to find out the exact mode whether community labour is used, population characteristics, the length of working hours, how culture is built around there fruits etc. Alternative systems in these cases are clearly not an alternative but a supplement or support to markets. I find that a seller behaves as his own utility maximiser especially when dealing in perishable goods--- A risk minimiser as well. Thus he sets prices which would benifit him the most, as buyers even you and I do while accepting coupons and offers.  But the same does not gurantee him a heavy profit or even mere subsistence, if we go by data of black traders and migrants. The mode of ownership of means of production, land raw materials etc. leads to an entitlement or oppurtunity failure. How is the question. Where fruits are locally distributed, it is indeed to justify the system at low or no cost. High prices could prevail elsewhere and slum dwellers might not even bother to know it's name. Thus markets are controlled by the dominant mode of production say Capitalist or late feudal etc.   Unfortunately, it has never been in recent India that Mangoes have been free. We do find occassional references to Mali's using sticks to fence thieves. Because land needs a cerificate and quantity of land one can enjoy is deided by his title in society, which tries to guarentee there is no free land no trees for all, and thus guards the markets from distortion.Children are not spared. This story comes back again and again and people smile. Either they are not conscious or they do not see erosion of Capitalist markets in near future and ushering into second stage, where labour has been transformed into primary want of life and mode of production flows more abundantly. So do I, at least when I keep in mind all ways have their bumps and potholes. The debate had long gone beyond that, though I can not help saluting new, workable ideas that will emerge and increase oppurtunities for all those who want to exploit. We can indeed work towards it, by studying local arrgangements and global prices of fruits. Surely the idea of a ripe mango is worthwhile trying to carck the code of mandis and trying to bring a few more for the slum dwellers or why not for you and me? At any cost we'd need to differentiate ourselves from people who worship estate-rights as something natural and call for equality or more honestly equitability. Wonderful article indeed the way you finish it. regards, Subhrodip. Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter http://beta.cricket.yahoo.com From jeebesh at sarai.net Sun May 10 06:07:54 2009 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh) Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 06:07:54 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Happy Sunday :) Library and Garbage bins Message-ID: <2A440E57-F130-4B8B-86B4-4E1312D4D6BC@sarai.net> Dear All, It's Sunday morning in Delhi. It's nice and warm. The birds are eagerly practicing flight as the afternoon sun will start draining them. The ants crawl the trees in quick hope of feed. Heat will slowly make them much less mobile as the day progresses. Delhi summer heat beats down everyone. Very little insight comes of it :) Is it possible to calm the heat down in this list? Well here is a suggestion. Can we together explore two questions that can maybe give us all some vantage point to better understand the milieu we live in. 1) Why is there almost no public library in the cities in India? Simple places that one goes to read and meet people from other walks of life. Was recently in Montreal and was taken to the newly built public library there. It has been jointly built by the municipality, the province and the federal funding. It is managed by an group of librarian and has already developed an amazing collection of books. It's children section was an amazing zone. The library had a sitting arrangement for many hundred and has wireless connectivity. 2) Why are the public garbage bin's design so unimaginative in the cities in India? We keep hearing so much about enormous garbage being produced by our increasingly visible and affluent middle class and so little innovation in garbage bins. Huge fences guard the various localities but the garbage bins remain undesigned and overflowing. This is a strange anomaly. Thought this maybe a good starting point for sunday thinking :) warmly Jeebesh From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sun May 10 15:12:58 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 02:42:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] "Shadow War: the Untold Story of Jihad in Kashmir" by Arif Jamal Message-ID: <839737.21419.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> """"" In his book, Jamal claims that the Pakistani military has trained nearly half a million insurgents and, as a matter of defense policy, continued the conflict at great human cost. He discusses how CIA money destined for the Afghan mujahideen was funneled to Kashmiri jihadis, fueling to a twenty-year insurgency rarely discussed in Western media. """"""   ABOUT THE BOOK & the AUTHOR   For nearly sixty years, India and Pakistan have battled over the territory of Kashmir, and have fought three wars. Jamal's book documents another war that has been fought in the shadows. Having interviewed nearly a thousand militants in Kashmir, Arif Jamal presents an account of Pakistan's secret battles with India from the early 1980s, when the Kashmiri conflict lurked in the background of the CIA's proxy war in Afghanistan, to the eruption of insurgent violence in 1988, to recent Kashmiri connections to terrorist financing and training. In his book, Jamal claims that the Pakistani military has trained nearly half a million insurgents and, as a matter of defense policy, continued the conflict at great human cost. He discusses how CIA money destined for the Afghan mujahideen was funneled to Kashmiri jihadis, fueling to a twenty-year insurgency rarely discussed in Western media. Arif Jamal is a Visiting Fellow at the Center on International Cooperation of the New York University. Jamal has written more than 200 investigative and interpretive articles in English, focusing on such subjects as Islamist politics in Pakistan, jihad in Kashmir, and the Pakistan Army. Arif Jamal began his professional career in Pakistan in 1986 as a journalist and has since worked with The Pakistan Times, The Muslim, The News, Newsline and Financial Post; and with various international media including The New York Times, Radio France International, and The Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. He holds a Masters in International Relations and has been a fellow at the Carr Center for Human Rights Policy at Harvard and at the University of London, where he performed research activities on modern Salafism and Salafist jihad in South Asia and its links to Salafism in Saudi Arabia. http://www.sipa.columbia.edu/sai/ From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sun May 10 15:28:19 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 02:58:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Jihad: 'The ultimate thermonuclear bomb' Message-ID: <52238.10672.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> This is a 2001 interview of Arif Jamal, author of "Shadow War: the Untold Story of Jihad in Kashmir"   In that book, 'Jamal claims that the Pakistani military has trained nearly half a million insurgents and, as a matter of defense policy, continued the conflict at great human cost. He discusses how CIA money destined for the Afghan mujahideen was funneled to Kashmiri jihadis, fueling to a twenty-year insurgency rarely discussed in Western media.'   Kshmendra     October 10, 2001 Jihad: 'The ultimate thermonuclear bomb' By Pepe Escobar ISLAMABAD - Arif Jamal, born in Lahore into a traditional Punjabi family, is arguably the leading Asian expert on jihad. He was educated in Pakistan, France and the US. He is married and lives in Islamabad, where he works as a consultant for leading media organizations in Europe and in Pakistan. Although he describes himself as a journalist, he is also a scholar. For the past three years Arif Jamal has been engaged in monumental research that will yield at least four books - all of them related to jihad. "Jihad" is now the supreme mantra in Pakistan's tribal areas after the beginning of American strikes on Afghanistan. Jamal is fond of remembering a certain scene at the White House in the mid-'80s, when Ronald Reagan - with his unfliching Californian eye for drama - was receiving a bunch of bearded and rugged frontier characters in the Oval Office: they were the Afghan mujahideen fighting the mighty Red Army of the "Evil Empire", the Soviet Union. Reagan on that occasion proclaimed the mujahideen "the moral equivalent of the Founding Fathers". Among these mujahideen a place could easily be found for a certain Arab millionaire named Osama bin Laden. Today Osama bin Laden - formerly the "moral equivalent" of George Washington and Thomas Jefferson - on the receiving end of America's fury. History can be very fond of symmetries. In the '80s, the Afghans were fighting a jihad against an Evil Empire, financed in part by America's CIA. At the beginning of the 21st century, Afghans are about to engage in a jihad against America itself. As Jamal puts it: "Now it's time for America to pay the price for the jihad in Afghanistan." Asia Times Online: What is the true meaning of jihad? Jamal: Jihad literally means "holy struggle". But in common parlance, when people use the word jihad, it means jihad in the way of Allah - or "the holy war". Prophet Muhamad stressed a lot the concept of jihad all his life. And he fought jihad more than 20 times in his own life. The real objective of jihad in the life of Prophet Muhamad was to defeat the infidels and establish an Islamic state in Mecca, Medina and the Arabian island later on. This essential meaning of jihad remains even today. The main objective of jihad even today is to defeat the infidels and establish Islamic states all over the world. Muslims believe that the Earth belongs to Allah and they should establish the system of Allah on Allah's Earth. The infidel system must go. ATol: What are the rewards of waging jihad? Jamal: Prophet Muhamad also offered a lot of incentives for those who would wage jihad in their lives. The mujahideen were assured of entering Paradise before the first drop of their blood fell to earth. The Holy Scriptures of Islam also say that houris [beautiful virgins of the Koranic Paradise] come down to Earth to take the spirit of the mujahid who is about to die before the first drop of his blood falls to earth. The martyrs are promised 72 houris in Paradise. These houris are more beautiful than all the beauties of the world combined. I have studied more than 600 wills of Pakistani mujahideen who were fighting in Kashmir. There is hardly any will that escapes this concept. All the mujahideen have mentioned the houris as an important incentive for waging jihad. The Paradise with houris is the prime objective of these mujahideen. ATol: What is the Koranic view of "infidels" - especially Christians and Jews? Jamal: In the beginning Prophet Muhamad did try to evolve alliances with Jews of the Arabian island against the nonbelievers. But they did not prove long-lasting. And ultimately the Jews, Christians and nonbelievers were bracketed in the same fashion by the Prophet. Prophet Muhamad wanted to establish an Islamic State in the Arabian island. It was not possible by evolving alliances with non-Muslims in those days. The Holy Koran is very clear about Jews and Christians; it very clearly says in several places that Jews and Christians cannot be friends with Muslims. The mujahideen today are propagating this concept from every available pulpit. Prophet Muhamad also asked to throw Christians and Jews out of the Arabian island. And this is the foundation of the concept of jihad of Osama bin Laden. Osama's contention is that it is un-Islamic to have the Christian and Jewish army of the United States of America in the Arabian island. He wants them out. Many of his close associates say that if the American troops leave Saudi Arabia, Osama bin Laden can be convinced to appear before an Islamic court of law. This shows that his jihad is based on the sayings of Prophet Muhamad. A big problem is that jihad has intensified the hatred between Muslims and Christians and Jews. ATol: Could we say that Osama's jihad is a misinterpretation of jihad according to Prophet Muhamad? Jamal: I don't think it is a misinterpretation of the Islamic concept of jihad. It may be a narrow interpretation of the concept. ATol: So Osama's jihad in thesis only applies to Saudi Arabia, it would not apply to Palestine and Israel. Jamal: Basically, the important thing is the presence of Christians and Jews of the American army on Saudi soil. But with the passage of time his jihad has also assumed many other aspects. It has come to be a jihad to liberate the whole world from the infidels, and establish an Islamic system all over the world. The practical problem is once you start jihad or guerrilla warfare you cannot come back to normal life. Your interest lies in the continuation of jihad. ATol: Do great Islamic religious authorities like grand muftis, for instance, agree with the concept of a global jihad? Jamal: I think no Muslim on Earth would disagree with the concept of jihad, because if they did they would become infidels. Most Muslims don't take part in practical jihad. Even moderate Muslims would not disagree with the concept of jihad. They may disagree with the attacks on the World Trade Center, but they do not disagree with the concept of jihad as such. Most would certainly like to see the establishment of an Islamic state all over the world. Most Sunni Muslims condemned the Iranian revolution which established a Shia Islamic state. This is a sectarian problem. Shias believe they waged a real Islamic revolution, and Iran is the only Islamic state at the moment. Sunnis don't believe so. The Wahhabis, for example, believe that Saudi Arabia is the only Islamic state in the world. As I said, Islam is a very sectarian religion. Different sects interpret different concepts according to their own wishes. ATol: The concept of jihad itself was elaborated in seventh century Arabia. In your opinion, what is the relevance of such a concept to the 21st century? Jamal: Jihad as we know it now started only after the CIA and ISI [Pakistan's Inter-Service Intelligence agency] started jihad in Afghanistan. Before that, jihad was a dormant concept, and Muslims were waging mostly nationalistic struggles. In the last two decades, jihad has come to mean "armed struggle". After the collapse of the Soviet Union and its Eastern European empire, jihad has been adopted by the have-nots in Muslim countries. And these have-nots are waging a sort of class struggle against the Western haves. Jihad has become a thermonuclear bomb in the hands of the have-nots in Muslim states. So if Marx were alive today he would say that the new class struggle is the Islamic have-nots against the Western haves Sum Probably Marx would not agree with this because he was in favor of a class struggle without the involvement of religion Sum But this is one form of class war, yes. ATol: Who is entitled to start and wage a jihad? Do you need special qualifications for it? Jamal: According to the Holy Scriptures, it is the Commander of the Faithful - the Amir-ul-Momineen - who is entitled to declare jihad. But in the absence of a commander-in-chief, any Muslim can wage jihad. The Holy Scriptures say that jihad will continue till the Day of Judgement. This means that the mujahideen will not revert to ordinary life. You cannot simply abandon jihad. Once you get training to wage jihad, and you wage jihad, you only change locations, but you have to continue the struggle. That is why the mujahideen from Afghanistan were directed to Kashmir. ATol: So how do you internalize jihad? Apparently once you start waging jihad, your whole world-view is subordinated to jihad. Everything else is not important. Even if you have to kill innocent people, this is subordinated to the higher purpose of jihad. Jamal: The end justifies the means. When you start jihad, it starts dominating you, because it gives you power over the rest of the world. All other things become subordinated to jihad. Even the concept of Islam boils down to jihad for the mujahideen. All other Islamic concepts - even when they are important - they become subordinated to jihad. Jihad becomes the ultimate end even for the Islamic belief system. These mujahideen ignore many, many important Islamic concepts. For example, Prophet Muhamad said that marriage is important for Muslims. It is "half of your belief", according to Him. But when I read the wills of mujahideen, I find they refuse to get married because they want to get married in Paradise. ATol: So most mujahideen are single. Jamal: Yes, most mujahideen prefer to get married in Paradise. Apart from jihad, they do practice namaz (the ritual of five prayers a day) regularly, they very regularly fast, but they ignore other concepts of Islam. They say jihad is the summit of Islam. So if you have found the summit, you have found the whole thing. This is what they are taught. They believe jihad will bring them honor in the world, they will become powerful. The heroes of the mujahideen have always been generals. No Muslim scientist, or intellectual, or artist has ever become a hero. It's a military tradition that dominates the mujahideen. ATol: Some influential Muslim scholars say that the great problem with Islam is that unlike Christianity, it did not go through a Renaissance and a Reformation. Jamal: Something to this effect has been said by the Italian Prime Minister Berlusconi. Regarding your question, I think this is an influence of Christian scholars on Muslim scholars. I think the West developed only after it abandoned Christianity and adopted science. It did not develop because it had Renaissance and Reformation. They developed only after they abandoned Jewish and Christian dogmas and adopted science as a way of life. I think this is the only solution for Muslim societies as well. Unless they adopt science and technology, they will not be able to fight the West. ATol: How many different faces may jihad adopt? Jamal: Jihad can take many forms. The concept of many Pakistani organizations of mujahideen is the liberation of Kashmir from Hindu domination. Many of them say that if India quits Kashmir they will stop jihad. ATol: Could we make a comparison with the jihad in Afghanistan in the '80s? Many might have said that after the Soviets were expelled, they would quit jihad; instead they started fighting with each other. Jamal: Certainly this will happen in Kashmir as well if India quits, because Islam is very sectarian in the Indian subcontinent. All the jihadi and Islamist parties in the subcontinent are based on sects. They cooperate with one another for the sake of convenience. But essentially they do not consider other sects as the "right" sects. ATol: How do you describe the current jihad against Shias inside Afghanistan itself? Jamal: When the CIA started jihad in Afghanistan, Shias in Afghanistan also participated in the struggle against the Soviets. But later the anti-Shia forces took over jihad - and the jihad started eating its own children. The Shias in Afghanistan are mostly concentrated in the Hazarajat region. They are also slightly spread out in the west. This phenomenon has international aspects as well. One reason is the Saudi influence on the Afghan jihad. You remember the Saudis were matching America dollar for dollar. And Saudis had a lot of influence over the mujahideen in Afghanistan. This influence was one of the important factors which turned the mujahideen and the Taliban against the Shias in Afghanistan. The second reason is related to internal Pakistani politics. In Pakistan, Zia-ul-Haq was seeking a support base among the Sunnis of this country. And he strenghtened a lot of Sunni organizations and parties, a lot of them Deobandi - which eventually turned against the Shias because they were also receiving money from the Saudis and other Middle Eastern shaykhdom (kingdoms). Since the Middle Eastern monarchs were against Iran, these parties also turned against Shia in Pakistan. The Afghan factor multiplied the tension between Pakistani Shias and the Deobandi organizations. ATol: Why are the Taliban are so fiercely anti-Shia? Jamal: Shias have always been part of Muslim societies. They are a significant part of most Islamic countries in the world. Normally Shias are associated with Iran only, but there are many other countries with a sizable Shia majority, like Syria or Iraq. In Pakistan, 10 percent of the population is Shia. But in Afghanistan, when the Taliban came to power, they represented a certain Islamic sect - the Deobandis. And Deobandi is the most aggressively and ferociously anti-Shia sect. This hatred is rooted in history and politics. In 18th century Lucknow (in India), the rulers , the Muslim rajahs, were Shias, whereas the populaton was Sunni. When the Deoband movement emerged, they used the class hatred of common people in Lucknow and the environs against the Shia rulers. From that point in history, the tension between the Deoband movement and Shias started rising. But it never took a bloody shape until the military regime of Zia had to depend on the Deobandi organizations and parties in Pakistan to prop up and support his government. ATol: Can you mention some examples of Deobandi parties and organizations? Which ones are considered terrorist organizations? Jamal: The important Deobandi political parties are the three factions of the JUI (Jamiat Ulema Islam) - directed by Fazlur Rahman, Samiul Haq and Maulana Ajmal Qadri. The other national parties are Sipah-I-Sahaba Pakistan ("The Soldiers of the Companions of Prophet Muhamad"), and there are also four Deobandi organizations involved in the jihad in Kashmir. One is Harakat-ul-Mujahideen - which has been designated a terrorist organization by the US. The others are Harkatul-Jihad-al-Islami, Jaish Muhamad and Jamiat-ul-Mujahideen. The Taliban, of course, are also Deobandis. ATol: Is there any substantial difference between Deoband practiced by the Taliban and Deoband practiced by these religious parties in Pakistan? Jamal: There's very little difference. In Pakistan they cannot practice their version of Islam the way the Taliban can in Afghanistan. Given freedom in Pakistan, they would behave in the same way as the Taliban do. And this is exactly what they are striving for. And their influence is of course increasing day by day. ATol: In terms of percentage, how big are they? Jamal: It's very difficult to estimate. It's an important minority, maybe around 10 percent, spread all over the country. Once again, it's important to say that Islam in the subcontinent is very sectarian. The Islamic sects in the subcontinent are as well defined as the castes are defined for Hindus. All the sects hate one another. Deobands believe that Shias are not Muslims. This has come to be their fundamental principle. The Brelevis - which are the largest sect in Pakistan and India - believe Deobandis are not Muslims. Brelevis also believe that Wahhabis are not Muslims. It's a war of all sects against all sects. They could unite sometimes against a bigger enemy - like the United States. But given a relaxed atmosphere, they are at each other's throats. ATol: Could we talk about different manifestations of jihad - in Palestine, Kashmir, Chechnya, maybe Southeast Asia? Jamal: I believe jihad has been spreading since the Afghan jihad started. Before that, the nationalist struggles were mere nationalist struggles even when Muslims were involved. In the case of Palestine, it was not jihad unless the jihad in Afghanistan started in 1980. In the last two decades, jihad has been spreading because the Muslims have found a very lethal way of combating their enemies - and expressing themselves - thanks to the CIA. The reasons and the causes of the spread of jihad are certainly valid - but it is an irrational way of reacting to those real problems in life. Hamas did not come into being in the early days of the Palestinian struggle. It was only after the Palestinians learned armed jihad in Afghanistan and Pakistan. In the Philippines, the Abu Sayyaf group is very much linked with organizations in Afghanistan and Pakistan. In Chechnya as well, the Saudis are very much involved - through Wahhabi organizations in Pakistan. There is an international network of jihadi movements which has come into being. All these organizations all over the world are becoming closer and closer linked to one another. They give all kinds of assistance to other jihadi organizations, and civil society is unable to resist them. Most of these jihadi movements are one way or another linked to jihadi movements in Pakistan and Afghanistan. And both countries have become a source of training, arms and ammunition to these organizations. There is a respite sometimes, because of some government policies, but once these policies go away the jihadis re-emerge. One of the latest examples is in Burma. The jihad in Burma subsided when there was an arms embargo by the Huseena Wajid government in Bangladesh, and the price of a Kalashnikov went up three times - but now the jihadis can again support the Burmese mujahideen against the Buddhist government of Burma. These mujahideen are concentrated in the Burmese province of Arakan. A sizable number of Burmese fighters came to Pakistan; here they collect donations, and get religious military training. ATol: Is there a Javanese connection to the jihad, or maybe from Aceh? Jamal: I haven't come across any visible link between Pakistani and Afghani jihad organizations and Indonesian or Malaysian mujahideen. But some Indonesian and Malaysian mujahideen got training in Pakistan and Afghanistan. There are no significant organizational ties - as yet. ATol: Could we explain the attacks on America as organized by a coalition of jihadi organizations - with no Super-Brain giving the executive orders? Jamal: Yes, in the sense that there are mujahideen from many countries involved in this operation. But we have to wait for the details. It is certainly not the handiwork of one organization, one group or one individual. If Osama and the Al-Qaeda are involved, they are not alone. It was certainly a collective effort. ATol: Let's talk about the training of a jihadi. How do you form a jihadi? What do they learn in those training camps? Jamal: In 1980, when the CIA and ISI started jihad in Afghanistan, they concentrated on training the Afghans in the art of guerrilla warfare. There was very little religious indoctrination. According to a former ISI officer, they trained something like 80,000 Afghans in the art of guerrilla warfare during the '80s. But after some time they found out that military training was not enough. So the CIA and the ISI - with the help of Saudi money - started establishing madrassas (Koranic schools) all over the country, for Afghans and Pakistanis, and certainly along the Pakistan-Afghan border. These madrassas produced hardened Islamist guerrillas. The early fighters were freedom fighters. But they were slowly replaced by the Islamist guerrillas. And that is why when the mujahideen came to power in Afghanistan after the overthrow of Dr Najibullah's government in 1992, they could not sustain power. The students from these madrassas took over the government in the name of the Taliban Islamic movement. ATol: So they were the second generation of jihadis. Jamal: Yes - and these madrassa-trained students were the best jihadis. The CIA and the ISI set up many training camps inside Afghanistan and in the Northwest Frontier Province of Pakistan. When the jihad in Afghanistan came to an end, these guerrillas needed employment somewhere. And luckily for them, the Kashmir front was opened. So most of them were diverted to Kashmir. Kashmir was a nationalist cause for Pakistan. And Pakistanis responded to it very liberally - unlike in Afghanistan, where the cause was not a Pakistani cause. Kashmir was a Pakistani cause. So they set up scores of training camps. My own calculations show there are somewhere near half a million military-trained Islamist guerrillas in this country. ATol: How many of these are operating right now in Kashmir? Jamal: At any one time, there are between 3,000-4,000 Islamist guerrillas inside Indian-controlled Kashmir. These guerrillas are full-time guerrillas. Military training is only a part of their syllabus. Most of the time they learn about the holy scriptures of Islam and the rituals of Islam. The stress in the training camps is on religious training rather than military training. Once you train somebody to give his life in the way of Allah, it compensates for lack of training. This is why 3,000-4,000 guerrillas are holding more than half a million Indian troops in Kashmir. And the Indian army does not seem to be winning. If they were only mercenaries fighting for money, they would not have done so well. It's their Islamist belief, it's their desire to establish the sovereignty of Allah all over the world which keeps them going. ATol: So they don't study anything else apart from the Koran - no history of the subcontinent, no math, no languages? Jamal: Certainly not. They read the Holy Koran and other religious texts like the sayings of the Holy Prophet. These organizations also produce a lot of literature of their own. They are encouraged to read that literature as well. Once the students finish their training they come back to society and start proselytizing. They don't sit back at home. So half a million guerrillas in Pakistan are very much active in imparting to others the Islamist solution to their problems. ATol: What does the military training consist of? And who are the instructors? Jamal: Most of the instructors are Pakistanis. There are some Muslim deserters from the Indian army as well. The concept is not to wage jihad only. The important thing is to get prepared to fight jihad if one has to. That is why all the trained mujahideen do not go to Kashmir or elsewhere. They get training because the Koran orders Muslims to remain always prepared to fight against the infidels. They usually follow a basic military course of 21 days - to get minimum training in Kalashnikov-handling, hand grenades, ambushing. You come back to get advanced training only when you are planning to practically wage jihad. Even those who have minimum guerrilla training are better fighters than the Pakistani policemen. And the advanced guerrillas are certainly better than most conventional armies. The proof is what is going on in Indian-held Kashmir. ATol: Have you had any reports of a massive transfer of jihadis from Kashmir to wage jihad against America in Afghanistan? Jamal: No, there is no mass transfer to Afghanistan. There are only four organizations who are engaged both in Kashmir and Afghanistan. But they have different agendas for Kashmir and Afghanistan. Those who fight in Kashmir are not necessarily involved in Afghanistan, and vice-versa. In Kashmir the fighters are mostly Punjabis - and Punjabis have proved themselves to be very good guerrilla fighters. In Afghanistan they need Pashtun fighters, because the Pashtuns do not like guerrilla warfare. They feel they are being cowards, because they attack the enemy from behind. They have the tradition of coming out in the open and fighting the enemy. Most of the Pashtun fighters in Kashmir failed and died: they could not match the Indian army because they came into the open. Only Deobandi organizations are involved both in Kashmir and Afghanistan. The Taliban expelled all other jihadi organizations from Afghanistan when they came into power - because they consider only Deobandis as good Muslims. ATol: What is the future direction of jihad? Jamal: Jihad has tremendously affected Pakistani society. With increasing poverty, most people have very little to do with their lives. In this uneducated society, they have found a solution - an irrational solution - to their problems. They don't want to labor to find better solutions. They think if they wage jihad all their problems will be solved. It is very interesting: all their problems are worldly, and the solution is spiritual. But when they join jihad, they forget about their worldly problems. The Kalashnikov in their hands gives them respect, power and raison d'etre. Somebody who has nothing in life and nothing to lose, who has been for many years idling away his time in the streets of a Pakistani village, suddenly finds a cause to live for in a jihadi camp. And that gives him not only spritual power but also practical power over one of the biggest armies in the world. He is almost intoxicated with that power. And he will do everything to retain that power. These guerrillas very often praise themselves for winning against the Soviet Union - a former superpower. They have turned the Indian army - a big conventional army - into a wreck. And they believe they can defeat the sole superpower today - the United States. And they believe they are the intermediaries who can establish the rule of Allah on Allah's Earth. ATol: Assuming the scenario of the fall of the Taliban government - which is now the supreme desire of the "fantastic coalition", as George W Bush put it, do you think jihad will be waged against the government inside Pakistan? Jamal: In Afghanistan there is no viable alternative for the Taliban at the moment. The Afghan king, Zahir Shah, has been away from the country for more than 25 years now. He doesn't know anything about today's Afghanistan. He ruled Afghanistan in different times. The Northern Alliance is itself divided. It can speak for small minorities such as the Uzbeks, Tajiks, and Shias - but they cannot provide strong government in Afghanistan. The removal of Taliban will create a vacuum, which will ultimately lead to further bloodshed. In Pakistan, where the state is stronger, there is every possibility of bloodshed, but not on the same scale, at least in the beginning. The Pakistani jihadi organizations have an enemy before them: the United States and their collaborators in Pakistan. Ultimately Pakistani jihadi and Islamist organizations won't agree to form a government because they hate one another more than they hate the biggest enemy - the United States. So there is more of a possibility of an eternal clash among the jihadi and Islamist parties than jihadis against the Pakistani government. From rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com Sun May 10 15:37:49 2009 From: rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com (Rajen Uppinangadi) Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 15:37:49 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] sick press and more sick anchors. Message-ID: <61164a90905100307p19297e5w532970bb90aede9@mail.gmail.com> Dear Yunus, the issues is not about writing the propaganda of imagined hinduthva by sick and sick persons, or it is about the facilitators of the media who facilitate the congress in its divisive communal vote banks with sickular rhetorics, such facilitators in the oldest profession of mankind were known as .....! Now the issue of "compulsory" sterilisation" issue is being bandied around by only one channel with sole intention of "boxing" the Varun, when the correspondent spoke to a delhi channel that it was false that Varun talked about "compulsory" sterilisation but of carrots for sterilisation. Rajdeep is just a celebrity anchor, not a journalist, who is pimping around for Congress as seen in Nitish Kumar reprtage also, ably facilitated around by another hopeful Arnab, who are to be tackled by rules of law as journalism has lost its sense in the enthusiasm to favour "sickular" India. Again, let me remind you, the polio drops programme for kids is spoiled by these anchors with rhetorics and these channels will not even lift the little finger for amity in society, but hate is the game they profess to propagate between the communities for their gains. Regards. Rajen. From rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com Sun May 10 15:48:29 2009 From: rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com (Rajen Uppinangadi) Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 15:48:29 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] journalistic ethics and morals, given go by.? Message-ID: <61164a90905100318r25ddf776j515669234f674ed5@mail.gmail.com> Dear all, the delhi channel, NDTV talked to correspondent of the said news coverage, who categorically denied that Varun had asked for "compulsory" sterilisation, but he had spoken of being a strong leader, , and compulsory military training for all as every one could not identify themselves as brahmin or madrasi, but as an indian, ibn news was the channel which again tried to "box" Varun with a non-issue for its political boss - Sonia.? without verifying the channels run the "stories " and the leader is always in this category for false propaganda, -ibnnews. Regards, Rajen. From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sun May 10 16:21:58 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 03:51:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] "Sharia Here, in the Country, in the World" by Arif Jamal Message-ID: <170246.48419.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Maulana Sufi Mohammad and his organisation TNSM have been at the centre of turmoil in Pakistan in recent weeks. What started as an attempt to accede to some demands for implementation of legal norms as per Shariah in Swat, spiralled out of control in a manner that most analysts suspect would have threatened the integrity of Pakistan.   Reproduced below is a 2005 article on Maulana Sufi Mohammad and the TNSM by Arif Jamal. A very interesting read considering what shape events took in Pakistan, 4 years later    The article apparently first appeared on 6th Mar 2005 in THE NEWS. The relevant weblink is not accesible http://www.jang-group.com/thenews/mar2005-weekly/nos-06-03-2005/dia.htm#6   Kshmendra     "Sharia here, in the country, in the world" (Can TNSM stage a comeback with a vengeance as claimed by its cadres?) By Arif Jamal   "We will eliminate the Jamaat-i-Islami from our area and impose the real Islam. You will see that we succeed this time," Sufi Ahmed (not his real name) told me as our jeep approached Dir/Malakand. Sufi Ahmed is a young and budding leader of the banned Tehreek-i-Nifaz-i-Shariat-i-Mohammadi (TNSM). Sufi Ahmed recently took me to Malakand and adjoining areas to show that TNSM is alive and once again regrouping. He says TNSM is going to stage a comeback, in the not too distant future, with a vengeance.   A few minutes later, he took out his walkie-talkie and told his comrades about our arrival. Mobile telephones do not work where we were. "Are you allowed to use walkie-talkie?" I asked him in utter bewilderment. "Who is anybody to allow or disallow us to use this? We believe only in sharia. Does sharia forbids this?" he ruefully answered. "Your laws are un-Islamic. We are struggling to replace them with true sharia. If the Jamaat-i-Islami had not played tricks with us, we would have succeeded in having sharia laws in this area by now."   "Do you want to come into power or impose sharia?" I asked him after a short pause. "We want to see the imposition of sharia here and in the rest of the country and the rest of the world," he took a long breath and added, "The Jamaat-i-Islami wants to come into power in Islamabad. They are even ready to accept the American [brand of] Islam." He turned his face towards me and said, "The true Islamic forces would never let the Jamaat-i-Islami come into power. They understand this and that is why they want every true Islamic force eliminated."   The TNSM cadres and leaders bitterly blame the Jamaat-i-Islami for all their problems since October 2001 when the latter, as TNSM alleges, lured them to cross into Afghanistan and wage jihad against the invading American forces. That is when the fortunes were reversed for TNSM. Soon after the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Centre and the Pentagon in September 2001, most of the Islamist and jihadist parties agitated against the coming American attack on Afghanistan. The TNSM was in the forefront of agitation in their region. Sufi Mohammad led thousands of his followers to Afghanistan where most of them died. Some of them were arrested by the new Afghan government. The Pakistani government banned the group and arrested Sufi Mohammad on his return. A special court sentenced the founding amir of TNSM, Maulana Sufi Mohammad and 30 others to seven years for leading thousands of his followers to Afghanistan in spite of government restrictions.   TNSM came into being in 1989 with the nomination of Sufi Mohammad as its amir. The emergence of TNSM was a direct consequence of the jihad in Afghanistan. The region of Dir/Malakand division where TNSM became popular in the beginning abuts the province of Kunar in Afghanistan. The salafist Jamatud Dawah of Afghanistan, led by Shaikh Jamilur Rehman, had been trying to set up some sort of an Islamic state in Kunar. His group was also applying Islamic punishments in the Afghan province of Kunar. Moreover, Shaikh Jamilur Rehman had set up his group's headquarters in the Bajaur Agency. Shaikh Jamilur Rehman set up a chain of some 250 madrassas for Afghan students. At the same time, he encouraged the Pakistani children to attend those madrassas. The success of the Afghan jihad greatly encouraged the people to demand the imposition of sharia in their region as well. This explains why Sufi Mohammad uses salafist jargon although he himself was trained by the Jamaat-i-Islami.   The most important demand of this new group was the imposition of sharia in the Malakand division. Maulana Sufi Mohammad started his Islamist politics as a member of the Jamaat-i-Islami but left it in 1981 and renounced electoral politics. He declared that the politics of elections was haram (forbidden under Islamic law). He also declared that the religious parties, which take part in elections, were also un-Islamic. TNSM has been waging an unrelenting struggle for the imposition of sharia in the Malakand division. In 1990, they announced that they had imposed the Islamic law and forbade the people from going to courts of law. As TNSM grew in numbers and influence, they started using violence for the acceptance of their demand. In one instance, tens of thousands of its followers blocked the highway for nearly one week. Under their growing pressure, the NWFP governor imposed sharia in the Malakand division in May 1994 through an ordinance.   However, the ordinance could not come into operation even after the passage of four months. This provoked the TNSM cadres and they agitated all over the division, provoking widespread agitation. The group started kidnapping government officials. During one such violent agitation, they even occupied the airport and other government buildings. They even killed Member of Provincial Assembly Badiuz Zaman. The government also promised to impose sharia law in other parts of the area as well. The rebellion was brought under control after the loss of a number of lives.   Like many other Islamist parties, TNSM, which had established close links with the Taliban movement in Afghanistan, pledged to go and wage jihad against the Americans in Afghanistan in the aftermath of the 9/11 terrorist attacks in the United States. However, it was only TNSM that went to Afghanistan with all fanfare. To their total surprise, the Taliban refused to welcome them and asked them to return to Pakistan after handing their weapons over to them. In the meanwhile, the American warplanes started carrying out air strikes against the al-Qaeda and their hosts, the Taliban. The Taliban, who had some sort of plan to escape the bombardments, disappeared and left the TNSM cadres to suffer heavy casualties.   The TNSM leaders and cadres allege that they went into Afghanistan expecting the Jamaat-i-Islami to follow them. But, the Jamaat-i-Islami only wanted them to go and face the Americans. When the Americans annihilated TNSM in Afghanistan, the Jamaat-i-Islami must have been too happy on seeing two of their rivals being removed from the regional scene, said Ahmed with some justification. Their second rival was the Taliban Islamic movement, which had snatched victory from their jaws.   http://www.cobrapost.com/documents/Sharia%20here.htm       From c.anupam at gmail.com Sun May 10 16:51:14 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 16:51:14 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] journalistic ethics and morals, given go by.? In-Reply-To: <61164a90905100318r25ddf776j515669234f674ed5@mail.gmail.com> References: <61164a90905100318r25ddf776j515669234f674ed5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00905100421s21330b4aj8136b39984471deb@mail.gmail.com> dear rajen, for your kind information it was the prestigious Press Trust of India which broke the story. i can sense your bias towards media vis-a-vis varun gandhi, so its very easy for me to gauge how genuine is your protest against news reporting. regards anupam.. On 5/10/09, Rajen Uppinangadi wrote: > > Dear all, the delhi channel, NDTV talked to correspondent of the said news > coverage, who categorically denied that Varun had asked for "compulsory" > sterilisation, but he had spoken of being a strong leader, , and compulsory > military training for all as every one could not identify themselves as > brahmin or madrasi, but as an indian, ibn news was the channel which again > tried to "box" Varun with a non-issue for its political boss - Sonia.? > > without verifying the channels run the "stories " and the leader is > always in this category for false propaganda, -ibnnews. > > Regards, > > Rajen. > From monica at sarai.net Sun May 10 16:51:57 2009 From: monica at sarai.net (Monica Narula) Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 16:51:57 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Happy Sunday :) Library and Garbage bins In-Reply-To: <2A440E57-F130-4B8B-86B4-4E1312D4D6BC@sarai.net> References: <2A440E57-F130-4B8B-86B4-4E1312D4D6BC@sarai.net> Message-ID: <8011FC77-47E6-43A0-BE4A-09FB7C2ACDD4@sarai.net> Talking of libraries and books, here is an interesting link http://strangemaps.wordpress.com/2009/04/08/373-a-map-of-the-land-of-books/ You can see a picture of a map of the land of books :-) and below is the description from that page. best M This map by German illustrator Alphons Woelfle (1938) shows the extent and the divisions of Bücherland (the Land of Books). The Land consists of about half a dozen distinct territories, most of which are explicitly named: Leserrepublik (Reader’s Republic), Vereinigte Buchhandelsstaaten (United States of Booksellers), Recensentia (a realm for Reviewers), Makulaturia (Waste Paper Land), and Poesia (Poetry). The capital of the US of B is the city of Officina (Latin for workshop, and the origin of our ‘office’; the name seems remarkably unremarkable. Possibly there is an old reference or a German word-joke here we’re not getting). Plotting out imagined places on a map as if they were “real” countries is a favourite trope in curious cartography. The artificial equation of place and meaning allows for double-entendres and other humorous leaps of the imagination on which this allegorical form of cartography thrives. As a sub-genre of cartography, it has been around since at least La carte de tendre, an 18th-century French map of love’s topography (discussed in entry #245 of this blog). Other examples previously discussed include a Map on Temperance (#258) or a German map of the Empire of Love (#59). This map was possibly commissioned by the Heimeran Verlag (publishing house) of Munich, a frequent employer of Mr Woelfle’s artisanship – although no information could be found relating to the specific circumstances of this map. One can only presume that it illustrated a book about books, or more precisely, a book about publishing. The look and feel of the map is definitely older than its mid-20th-century age; in a positive case of antiquarianism (i.e. lending something respectability by increasing its age), it has been made to resemble the maps of earlier times (17th, 18th century, I’d say). Monica Narula Raqs Media Collective Sarai-CSDS www.raqsmediacollective.net www.sarai.net On 10-May-09, at 6:07 AM, Jeebesh wrote: > Dear All, > > It's Sunday morning in Delhi. It's nice and warm. The birds are > eagerly practicing flight as the afternoon sun will start draining > them. The ants crawl the trees in quick hope of feed. Heat will slowly > make them much less mobile as the day progresses. Delhi summer heat > beats down everyone. Very little insight comes of it :) > > Is it possible to calm the heat down in this list? Well here is a > suggestion. > > Can we together explore two questions that can maybe give us all some > vantage point to better understand the milieu we live in. > > 1) Why is there almost no public library in the cities in India? > Simple places that one goes to read and meet people from other walks > of life. > > Was recently in Montreal and was taken to the newly built public > library there. It has been jointly built by the municipality, the > province and the federal funding. It is managed by an group of > librarian and has already developed an amazing collection of books. > It's children section was an amazing zone. The library had a sitting > arrangement for many hundred and has wireless connectivity. > > 2) Why are the public garbage bin's design so unimaginative in the > cities in India? We keep hearing so much about enormous garbage being > produced by our increasingly visible and affluent middle class and so > little innovation in garbage bins. Huge fences guard the various > localities but the garbage bins remain undesigned and overflowing. > This is a strange anomaly. > > Thought this maybe a good starting point for sunday thinking :) > > warmly > Jeebesh > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Sun May 10 17:06:31 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 17:06:31 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Happy Sunday :) Library and Garbage bins In-Reply-To: <2A440E57-F130-4B8B-86B4-4E1312D4D6BC@sarai.net> References: <2A440E57-F130-4B8B-86B4-4E1312D4D6BC@sarai.net> Message-ID: Dear Jeebesh (and all) While the heat in this list could have been tackled by means of more personal chats and more respect of both sides' views from the other sides, here I wish to express my views on the first issue you have raised. Any issue, be it water, roads, health, education, or even a public library, can be addressed. However, there are umpteen points regarding as to why it is not an issue. And they are numerous in our system of democracy (or as in Gulaal they say, it's just autocracy in the name of democracy). The first issue here is about the way our democratic system works. It is a system which is half full and half empty, meaning that it is 50% democratic and 50% not, if one were to quote Ramachandra Guha from his book 'India After Gandhi'. And it certainly is. We do have a system which has elections and the transition of power after elections is also smooth. However, that's it. Our system begins and ends with elections. After that, nobody cares. We never look at things beyond elections. Any criticism of a government takes place only with the point of view of elections. What this means is that only those issues which are important from the election point of view, would be addressed. But the question arises, as to then which issues are important, if they are there at all? Here, our media and the grassroots are totally at crossroads. The media feels the PM or the CM at the state level are more important issues than say water supply, health or education. On the other hand, the candidates realize that is not necessarily the case, and they concentrate on the kind of developmental works undertaken and some or the other sops being given. And what are these developmental works actually? The issues of livelihood. The issues of roti, kapda and makan. And if one may add to it, in a certain way they are related to bijli, sadak aur paani. These are the issues which are uppermost in the minds of the people. One must understand that with the kind of society we are, a caste and religion-biased society, where Brahmins wouldn't eat with Muslims or Dalits, where now even the OBC's live separately from them and where inter-caste marriages are even now abhorred, at least in rural areas, the kind of politicians who would emerge would also concentrate only on giving doles to their supporters or caste/religion members as cash or some kind of incentive. With the competition between people of different castes and religions for such govt. doles and rewards like jobs, rather than them fighting together for a common cause (long back this happened under Gandhi's movements), and with the kind of society we are (where people revel in having contacts with the powerful and the rich rather than following rules), all want a common minimum level of existence, from where education is excluded. Also, no political party has been imaginative enough to put health and education as basic issues in their campaigns and trying to corner the incumbent governments either during elections or during other times through mass based movements. Neither have non-political organizations played a successful role in this part during such times to ensure that such issues are addressed, which does not mean that they haven't tried; it simply means they haven't tried enough or the results are not enough. People in general also have little patience to understand the complexity of issues. That is why we have experts to understand them. But one must remember that things should also be made palatable to the electorate to back you. In this case, Manmohan Singh is a huge failure, precisely because he has never contested an election himself. And Advani may have an advantage here mainly because he has won a Lok Sabha election before this at least, so he could understand possibly how to make an issue and its solution palatable to the public. (This is a possibility, not necessarily the actuality). The second issue we have forgotten is in our society who is doing what. The poor don't have the power to actually undertake movements on their own and fight a battle which can yield results. I don't mean to say that the poor can't undertake movements. The poor in many states may have actually done so, but one must remember that in today's times, when our politicians are image-conscious, things which are not popular are not going to make much headway. Therefore, one must realize that unless such things are popular or in the mainstream media, it is very difficult to get the point across. Moreover, the poor are more concerned with their livelihoods, which is the most important issue for them. Things like library are non-issues from their point of view. The rich on the other hand do have the power, so also the middle class. The media is also on this side. However, we have tended to concentrate more on issues which are not going to help the poor at all. Forget that, we have not even concentrated on issues which can help the society at large. Even in the voting campaigns, people are being encouraged to vote. But the moot point remains this: if all the candidates are corrupt, what is the point of voting, even if for the least corrupt candidate? After all, corruption be it of Re. 1 or lakhs can and should not be tolerated. If terrorism is not tolerated, how come corruption is tolerated? Similarly, Hindutva seems also to be an issue going by some great Rediff articles and views expressed on them. Malls and removal of slums are issues, even though people don't try to understand at all the situational changes which can take place by having malls at certain places, or even the problems in slums and how they can be corrected without removing them. And of course, we have some other nonsense things to talk about. Conclusion: The library is a public good, and ultimately the library will benefit the public. The problem is that the rich don't want to fight for it as they think it's useless to involve themselves in such fights which are unprofitable (or non-money yielding). The poor don't fight for it as they have more important issues to look at. The media doesn't take it up as it's not a 'TRP-giving' news to be looked at, or it is too serious. And our politicians being image-conscious, believe that these are not the things which will fetch them votes. So the library is a non-starter in our cities. And so, we don't have spaces in public to debate with on a personal level by and large. Regards Rakesh From c.anupam at gmail.com Sun May 10 17:13:30 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 17:13:30 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Happy Sunday :) Library and Garbage bins In-Reply-To: References: <2A440E57-F130-4B8B-86B4-4E1312D4D6BC@sarai.net> Message-ID: <341380d00905100443w170c5148gadccf356d43c849@mail.gmail.com> Here's a little library's story. http://www.soundofdrowning.com/lib.html regards anupam On 5/10/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > > Dear Jeebesh (and all) > > While the heat in this list could have been tackled by means of more > personal chats and more respect of both sides' views from the other > sides, here I wish to express my views on the first issue you have > raised. > > Any issue, be it water, roads, health, education, or even a public > library, can be addressed. However, there are umpteen points regarding > as to why it is not an issue. And they are numerous in our system of > democracy (or as in Gulaal they say, it's just autocracy in the name > of democracy). > > The first issue here is about the way our democratic system works. It > is a system which is half full and half empty, meaning that it is 50% > democratic and 50% not, if one were to quote Ramachandra Guha from his > book 'India After Gandhi'. And it certainly is. We do have a system > which has elections and the transition of power after elections is > also smooth. However, that's it. Our system begins and ends with > elections. After that, nobody cares. We never look at things beyond > elections. Any criticism of a government takes place only with the > point of view of elections. > > What this means is that only those issues which are important from the > election point of view, would be addressed. But the question arises, > as to then which issues are important, if they are there at all? Here, > our media and the grassroots are totally at crossroads. The media > feels the PM or the CM at the state level are more important issues > than say water supply, health or education. On the other hand, the > candidates realize that is not necessarily the case, and they > concentrate on the kind of developmental works undertaken and some or > the other sops being given. > > And what are these developmental works actually? The issues of > livelihood. The issues of roti, kapda and makan. And if one may add to > it, in a certain way they are related to bijli, sadak aur paani. These > are the issues which are uppermost in the minds of the people. One > must understand that with the kind of society we are, a caste and > religion-biased society, where Brahmins wouldn't eat with Muslims or > Dalits, where now even the OBC's live separately from them and where > inter-caste marriages are even now abhorred, at least in rural areas, > the kind of politicians who would emerge would also concentrate only > on giving doles to their supporters or caste/religion members as cash > or some kind of incentive. > > With the competition between people of different castes and religions > for such govt. doles and rewards like jobs, rather than them fighting > together for a common cause (long back this happened under Gandhi's > movements), and with the kind of society we are (where people revel in > having contacts with the powerful and the rich rather than following > rules), all want a common minimum level of existence, from where > education is excluded. > > Also, no political party has been imaginative enough to put health and > education as basic issues in their campaigns and trying to corner the > incumbent governments either during elections or during other times > through mass based movements. Neither have non-political organizations > played a successful role in this part during such times to ensure that > such issues are addressed, which does not mean that they haven't > tried; it simply means they haven't tried enough or the results are > not enough. > > People in general also have little patience to understand the > complexity of issues. That is why we have experts to understand them. > But one must remember that things should also be made palatable to the > electorate to back you. In this case, Manmohan Singh is a huge > failure, precisely because he has never contested an election himself. > And Advani may have an advantage here mainly because he has won a Lok > Sabha election before this at least, so he could understand possibly > how to make an issue and its solution palatable to the public. (This > is a possibility, not necessarily the actuality). > > The second issue we have forgotten is in our society who is doing > what. The poor don't have the power to actually undertake movements on > their own and fight a battle which can yield results. I don't mean to > say that the poor can't undertake movements. The poor in many states > may have actually done so, but one must remember that in today's > times, when our politicians are image-conscious, things which are not > popular are not going to make much headway. Therefore, one must > realize that unless such things are popular or in the mainstream > media, it is very difficult to get the point across. > > Moreover, the poor are more concerned with their livelihoods, which is > the most important issue for them. Things like library are non-issues > from their point of view. > > The rich on the other hand do have the power, so also the middle > class. The media is also on this side. However, we have tended to > concentrate more on issues which are not going to help the poor at > all. Forget that, we have not even concentrated on issues which can > help the society at large. Even in the voting campaigns, people are > being encouraged to vote. But the moot point remains this: if all the > candidates are corrupt, what is the point of voting, even if for the > least corrupt candidate? After all, corruption be it of Re. 1 or lakhs > can and should not be tolerated. If terrorism is not tolerated, how > come corruption is tolerated? > > Similarly, Hindutva seems also to be an issue going by some great > Rediff articles and views expressed on them. Malls and removal of > slums are issues, even though people don't try to understand at all > the situational changes which can take place by having malls at > certain places, or even the problems in slums and how they can be > corrected without removing them. And of course, we have some other > nonsense things to talk about. > > Conclusion: > > The library is a public good, and ultimately the library will benefit > the public. The problem is that the rich don't want to fight for it as > they think it's useless to involve themselves in such fights which are > unprofitable (or non-money yielding). The poor don't fight for it as > they have more important issues to look at. The media doesn't take it > up as it's not a 'TRP-giving' news to be looked at, or it is too > serious. And our politicians being image-conscious, believe that > these are not the things which will fetch them votes. > > So the library is a non-starter in our cities. > > And so, we don't have spaces in public to debate with on a personal > level by and large. > > Regards > > Rakesh > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From yasir.media at gmail.com Sun May 10 17:39:58 2009 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?windows-1256?B?eWFzaXIgfu3HINPR?=) Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 17:09:58 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Tableeghi Jamaat leaders denounce gunpoint Sharia In-Reply-To: <3dd9e6810905090134v10ca78c7h48d65eeaebb2b290@mail.gmail.com> References: <3dd9e6810905090134v10ca78c7h48d65eeaebb2b290@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5af37bb0905100509h8b159c6saef0324ee40b3979@mail.gmail.com> it was a little slow in coming. but condemnation of taliban has come across the board, religious apolitical as well as secular quasi-religious political On Sat, May 9, 2009 at 1:34 PM, Vikhar Ahmed wrote: > This is a very interesting development because as the journalist points out > - the TJ's venture into anything controversial has no precedent. I have > always been curious as to what would happen if TJ started taking a prominent > and active stand on political issues. The strength and the amazingly wide > network of the TJ rests on the fact that they have been purposely apolitical > with an obsessive concern with the private religious sphere of an > individual. While I don't agree with this parochial obsession, it is obvious > that they have spread so wide because of their complete disassociation with > developing a perspective on any political issue. > > - Vikhar. > > > On 5/9/09, M Javed wrote: >> >> Tableeghi Jamaat leaders denounce gunpoint Sharia >> By Inamullah Khattak >> Monday, 27 Apr, 2009 >> >> ISLAMABAD: In an unprecedented move, top leaders of the Tableeghi >> Jamaat have denounced enforcement of Sharia at gunpoint, religious >> extremism, militancy and terrorism. >> >> Leaders of the Jamaat, who scrupulously avoid speaking on >> controversial issues, also called for promoting inter-faith harmony, >> tolerance, human rights, social justice and peace. >> >> They were speaking at the conclusion of a three-day congregation near >> here on Monday. ‘Shariah cannot be enforced at gunpoint,’ declared >> Haji Abdul Wahab, Amir of the Tableeghi Jamaat, Pakistan. >> >> Had that been the case, Allah Almighty would have sent fierce angels >> to protect prophets and enforce their faiths, he said. >> >> The 90-year-old scholar, who left his job as sessions judge in >> pre-partition India and joined the Jamaat, cited the example of >> Prophet Mohammad (PBUH), said the Holy Prophet never used force. >> Instead he spread the word of God only by peaceful means. >> >> Haji Abdul Wahab also condemned extremism and militancy in the name of >> Islam, apparently a reference to the growing trend of Talibanisation >> and enforcement of Shria in Swat and other areas in the NWFP. >> >> The congregation of tens of thousands of people was also addressed by >> Maulana Jamshaid, Maulana Mohammad Ahmed and Mualana Fahim. >> >> ‘Muslims should preach peace, brotherhood and tolerance across the >> world, including Israel. They must avoid imposing their creed or faith >> by force because Islam is a religion of peace and promotes >> tranquillity,’ another scholar told the mammoth gathering. >> >> Maulana Mohammad Ahmed, a former educationist, said that Muslims >> should inspire adherents of other religions by their good moral and >> social behaviour. People who thought that Shariah could be imposed by >> force were simpletons, he said. >> >> ‘We should reach out to all human beings and guide them out of >> darkness. Before the advent of Islam, people were so inflexible that >> they used to bury their daughters without remorse. (But they changed.) >> Remember …human beings are above other creations of God,’ said Maulana >> Ahmed, the custodian of the largest seminary of the Tableeghi school >> of thought in Raiwind near Lahore. >> >> The main message of the gathering was that Islam could not be confined >> to Pakistan or any other geographical area and there was a need to >> spread the religion of peace in every corner of the world. >> >> People from across the country who had converged there pledged that >> they would continue the mission of spreading Islam across the world. >> >> >> http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/pakistan/12-tableeghi-jamaat-leaders-denounce-gunpoint-sharia--bi-12 >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sun May 10 17:48:32 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 05:18:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] journalistic ethics and morals, given go by.? In-Reply-To: <341380d00905100421s21330b4aj8136b39984471deb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <876497.78603.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Anupam   The source for the "sterlisation" remarks was not PTI but an article in "The Daily Telegraph" of UK. PTI's coverage was of that article.   Since then a PTI report now says " UK daily denies Varun favoured forced sterilisation" http://www.ptinews.com/pti%5Cptisite.nsf/0/50DBA30E8FFE98E7652575B20023A878?OpenDocument   The amended version of the Daily Telegraph article >>>>>>  http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/5297830/Indian-election-Varun-Gandhi-vows-to-follow-in-fathers-footsteps.html   Kshmendra         --- On Sun, 5/10/09, anupam chakravartty wrote: From: anupam chakravartty Subject: Re: [Reader-list] journalistic ethics and morals, given go by.? To: "sarai list" Date: Sunday, May 10, 2009, 4:51 PM dear rajen, for your kind information it was the prestigious Press Trust of India which broke the story. i can sense your bias towards media vis-a-vis varun gandhi, so its very easy for me to gauge how genuine is your protest against news reporting. regards anupam.. On 5/10/09, Rajen Uppinangadi wrote: > > Dear all, the delhi channel, NDTV talked to correspondent of the said news > coverage, who categorically denied that Varun had asked for "compulsory" > sterilisation, but he had spoken of being a strong leader, , and compulsory > military training for all as every one could not identify themselves as > brahmin or madrasi, but as an indian, ibn news was the channel which again > tried to "box" Varun with a non-issue for its political boss - Sonia.? > > without verifying the channels run the "stories " and the leader is > always in this category for false propaganda, -ibnnews. > > Regards, > > Rajen. > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From c.anupam at gmail.com Sun May 10 18:05:10 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 18:05:10 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] journalistic ethics and morals, given go by.? In-Reply-To: <876497.78603.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <341380d00905100421s21330b4aj8136b39984471deb@mail.gmail.com> <876497.78603.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <341380d00905100535q42a4621dl4ca313cd5b616225@mail.gmail.com> thanks for pointing it out Kshmendra. have a good day anupam On 5/10/09, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > Dear Anupam > > The source for the "sterlisation" remarks was not PTI but an article > in "The Daily Telegraph" of UK. PTI's coverage was of that article. > > Since then a PTI report now says " UK daily denies Varun favoured forced > sterilisation" > http://www.ptinews.com/pti%5Cptisite.nsf/0/50DBA30E8FFE98E7652575B20023A878?OpenDocument > > The amended version of the Daily Telegraph article >>>>>> > > http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/5297830/Indian-election-Varun-Gandhi-vows-to-follow-in-fathers-footsteps.html > > Kshmendra > > > > > > --- On *Sun, 5/10/09, anupam chakravartty * wrote: > > > From: anupam chakravartty > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] journalistic ethics and morals, given go by.? > To: "sarai list" > Date: Sunday, May 10, 2009, 4:51 PM > > dear rajen, > > for your kind information it was the prestigious Press Trust of India which > broke the story. i can sense your bias towards media vis-a-vis varun gandhi, > so its very easy for me to gauge how genuine is your protest against news > reporting. > > regards anupam.. > > > On 5/10/09, Rajen Uppinangadi > wrote: > > > > Dear all, the delhi channel, NDTV talked to correspondent of the said news > > coverage, who categorically denied that Varun had asked for > "compulsory" > > sterilisation, but he had spoken of being a strong leader, , and > compulsory > > military training for all as every one could not identify themselves as > > brahmin or madrasi, but as an indian, ibn news was the channel which again > > tried to "box" Varun with a non-issue for its political boss - > Sonia.? > > > > without verifying the channels run the "stories " and the > leader is > > always in this category for false propaganda, -ibnnews. > > > > Regards, > > > > Rajen. > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sun May 10 19:03:05 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 06:33:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Happy Sunday :) Library and Garbage bins In-Reply-To: <341380d00905100443w170c5148gadccf356d43c849@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <800399.14447.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Anupam Delightful 'strip'. Thanks   Rakesh Public libraries would serve an excellent purpose. The poor and homeless could find temporary refuge in them, getting shielded from the cold and protected from heat.   Only problem in that might be along the lines of the news story "US library bans 'offensive bodily odours' from entering!" http://in.news.yahoo.com/139/20090415/959/tod-us-library-bans-offensive-bodily-odo.html   Wonder how 'library going elite' (for elite they would be in comparison) would react to the poor and homeless in the 'public space' of a public library   Kshmendra   --- On Sun, 5/10/09, anupam chakravartty wrote: From: anupam chakravartty Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Happy Sunday :) Library and Garbage bins To: "sarai list" Date: Sunday, May 10, 2009, 5:13 PM Here's a little library's story. http://www.soundofdrowning.com/lib.html regards anupam On 5/10/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > > Dear Jeebesh (and all) > > While the heat in this list could have been tackled by means of more > personal chats and more respect of both sides' views from the other > sides, here I wish to express my views on the first issue you have > raised. > > Any issue, be it water, roads, health, education, or even a public > library, can be addressed. However, there are umpteen points regarding > as to why it is not an issue. And they are numerous in our system of > democracy (or as in Gulaal they say, it's just autocracy in the name > of democracy). > > The first issue here is about the way our democratic system works. It > is a system which is half full and half empty, meaning that it is 50% > democratic and 50% not, if one were to quote Ramachandra Guha from his > book 'India After Gandhi'. And it certainly is. We do have a system > which has elections and the transition of power after elections is > also smooth. However, that's it. Our system begins and ends with > elections. After that, nobody cares. We never look at things beyond > elections. Any criticism of a government takes place only with the > point of view of elections. > > What this means is that only those issues which are important from the > election point of view, would be addressed. But the question arises, > as to then which issues are important, if they are there at all? Here, > our media and the grassroots are totally at crossroads. The media > feels the PM or the CM at the state level are more important issues > than say water supply, health or education. On the other hand, the > candidates realize that is not necessarily the case, and they > concentrate on the kind of developmental works undertaken and some or > the other sops being given. > > And what are these developmental works actually? The issues of > livelihood. The issues of roti, kapda and makan. And if one may add to > it, in a certain way they are related to bijli, sadak aur paani. These > are the issues which are uppermost in the minds of the people. One > must understand that with the kind of society we are, a caste and > religion-biased society, where Brahmins wouldn't eat with Muslims or > Dalits, where now even the OBC's live separately from them and where > inter-caste marriages are even now abhorred, at least in rural areas, > the kind of politicians who would emerge would also concentrate only > on giving doles to their supporters or caste/religion members as cash > or some kind of incentive. > > With the competition between people of different castes and religions > for such govt. doles and rewards like jobs, rather than them fighting > together for a common cause (long back this happened under Gandhi's > movements), and with the kind of society we are (where people revel in > having contacts with the powerful and the rich rather than following > rules), all want a common minimum level of existence, from where > education is excluded. > > Also, no political party has been imaginative enough to put health and > education as basic issues in their campaigns and trying to corner the > incumbent governments either during elections or during other times > through mass based movements. Neither have non-political organizations > played a successful role in this part during such times to ensure that > such issues are addressed, which does not mean that they haven't > tried; it simply means they haven't tried enough or the results are > not enough. > > People in general also have little patience to understand the > complexity of issues. That is why we have experts to understand them. > But one must remember that things should also be made palatable to the > electorate to back you. In this case, Manmohan Singh is a huge > failure, precisely because he has never contested an election himself. > And Advani may have an advantage here mainly because he has won a Lok > Sabha election before this at least, so he could understand possibly > how to make an issue and its solution palatable to the public. (This > is a possibility, not necessarily the actuality). > > The second issue we have forgotten is in our society who is doing > what. The poor don't have the power to actually undertake movements on > their own and fight a battle which can yield results. I don't mean to > say that the poor can't undertake movements. The poor in many states > may have actually done so, but one must remember that in today's > times, when our politicians are image-conscious, things which are not > popular are not going to make much headway. Therefore, one must > realize that unless such things are popular or in the mainstream > media, it is very difficult to get the point across. > > Moreover, the poor are more concerned with their livelihoods, which is > the most important issue for them. Things like library are non-issues > from their point of view. > > The rich on the other hand do have the power, so also the middle > class. The media is also on this side. However, we have tended to > concentrate more on issues which are not going to help the poor at > all. Forget that, we have not even concentrated on issues which can > help the society at large. Even in the voting campaigns, people are > being encouraged to vote. But the moot point remains this: if all the > candidates are corrupt, what is the point of voting, even if for the > least corrupt candidate? After all, corruption be it of Re. 1 or lakhs > can and should not be tolerated. If terrorism is not tolerated, how > come corruption is tolerated? > > Similarly, Hindutva seems also to be an issue going by some great > Rediff articles and views expressed on them. Malls and removal of > slums are issues, even though people don't try to understand at all > the situational changes which can take place by having malls at > certain places, or even the problems in slums and how they can be > corrected without removing them. And of course, we have some other > nonsense things to talk about. > > Conclusion: > > The library is a public good, and ultimately the library will benefit > the public. The problem is that the rich don't want to fight for it as > they think it's useless to involve themselves in such fights which are > unprofitable (or non-money yielding). The poor don't fight for it as > they have more important issues to look at. The media doesn't take it > up as it's not a 'TRP-giving' news to be looked at, or it is too > serious. And our politicians being image-conscious, believe that > these are not the things which will fetch them votes. > > So the library is a non-starter in our cities. > > And so, we don't have spaces in public to debate with on a personal > level by and large. > > Regards > > Rakesh > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Sun May 10 19:12:35 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 19:12:35 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] ON INVERTORS AND GENERATORS: comments welcome. Message-ID: <285442.93892.qm@web94701.mail.in2.yahoo.com>  The fuel and green-conscious Government says use invertors instead of generators. In metro etc this notion is spreading. I would like to ask which is better? Generator makes power consumption unsubsidised. Invertor keeps subsidy. So called sine-wave invertors are not within reach of everybody. Power cuts are caused due to unmanagable loads. Invertors DO NOT generate electricity. And when one can switch to very different alternatives and work style specially during high load times, but does not all suffer. But thanks to technology all do not suffer. Imagine everybody charging invertors. Long masssive power cuts. A fixed percentage does. Time increases marginally within  discharge time and those who cannot afford pay for it. It is not that we are using hydal, wave power, wind or neuclear power to a great extent. Thermal power costs as much. So why no generators? Should those having invertors should be discouraged instead? So next time you wanna buy a invertor for your TV set, AC Heaters etc, look outside at the slum outside*,and imagine a child studying there, think of his future as an adult. . . . *(hopefully not wiped away,may be some power is stolen, but thats not their but politician's interest of not giving connections, seen police ignoring it?) Now surf faster and smarter ! Check out the new Firefox 3 - Yahoo! Edition http://downloads.yahoo.com/in/firefox/?fr=om_email_firefox From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sun May 10 19:29:48 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 06:59:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] WSJ on the Indian media - "Want Press Coverage? Give Me Some Money" Message-ID: <378416.35631.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Anupam   You wrote "free press is marginalised by the state and its functionaries.", seemingly linking it up with "newspapers essentially buy newsprint from state."   Isnt Newsprint in India freely available, freely importable? Where does the "State" come in other than in specifying Import Duties (which are not exploitative) and local taxation?   Yes there was a time when there was next to none Newsprint production in India and it's Import was controlled by the "State Trading Corpn." (STC), the "State" thereby exercising pressures through rationed allocations of Newsprint.   That is not the situation now. Is it?   If I am not mistaken, Newsprint continues to be made available by the "State" at SUBSIDISED rates for specific purposes and in limited quantities allocated to specific users. But it is the "User's" choice to source such Newsprint from the "State". It is not forced upon anyone.   There is no compulsion on Newspapers to buy Newsprint from the "State".   Please correct me if my understanding(s) are wrong because I found your statement strange and (to the extent of the knowledge I have) conveying an incorrect impression of there being State Control or State Pressure on Newspapers through control on Newsprint.   Kshmendra --- On Fri, 5/8/09, anupam chakravartty wrote: From: anupam chakravartty Subject: Re: [Reader-list] WSJ on the Indian media - "Want Press Coverage? Give Me Some Money" To: "sarai list" Date: Friday, May 8, 2009, 12:30 PM certain other truths about newspapers: newspapers essentially buy newsprint from state. one newspaper costs Rs 15, while its sold for Rs 3-4 to the reader. free press is marginalised by the state and its functionaries. a reporter essentially fears a rejoinder. On 5/8/09, sukanya ghosh wrote: > > Sad but true. It's no surprise to learn of coverage 'bartering' for > politicians. Seems to me a logical enough step considering that most > other news coverage can consist of bought spaces. The entertainment > pages (which unfortunately bleed their way insidiously into most other > pages) are established norms for this. It seems to me that a 'free > press' in our country exists in a very marginal way. Someone I met once > who worked for a leading English language daily told me very pompously > that 'they' (read 'educated journalist'), had nothing to do with and > were not to be associated with what the rest of the paper was saying. > Their reach consisted of being confined to the editorial pages of which > they were supremely proud of. Never mind that the paper has various > other pages of 'news', many supplements and an incredibly bad Sunday > magazine. Are we to be thankful that we have a page of actual reading > material (some of it occasionally good) and assume the rest is all > trash? Another leading daily in another city (also English) has in place > various marketing bundles which allow you to 'purchase' news coverage. > And these are not covert or shadowy backroom deals - it's all very out > there for the right buyers. We see newspapers, news channels owned by > particular organisations who seem to spend a lot of their time exhorting > the virtues of events / news pertaining to those organisations. And my > pet grouse, all this while the arts sections keep shrinking in size day > by day. Where trying to get coverage for an event / exhibition / book > (no matter how significant) can lead to nail biting finish, wondering if > the reporter (who has been given detailed press releases) will at least > get the name right. > > The irony being of course that there is no dearth of news of the > sensational variety if one were to attempt to report just facts in the > case of Indian politics. But that would mean effort and interest. And > that surely is lacking in our press coverages. > > > > > Rana Dasgupta wrote: > > Want Press Coverage? Give Me Some Money > > > > By PAUL BECKETT > > > > Ajay Goyal is a serious, independent candidate contesting for a Lok > > Sabha seat in Chandigarh. > > Never heard of him? Neither, probably, have a lot of people in > > Chandigarh because when it came to getting press coverage for his > > campaign he was faced with a simple message: If you want press, you have > > to pay. > > > > So far, he says, he's been approached by about 10 people – some brokers > > and public relations managers acting on behalf of newspaper owners, some > > reporters and editors – with the message that he'll only get written > > about in the news pages for a fee. We're not talking advertising; we're > > talking news. > > > > One broker offered three weeks of coverage in four newspapers for 10 > > lakh rupees ($20,000). A reporter and a photographer from a Chandigarh > > newspaper told him that for 1.5 lakh rupees ($3,000) for them and a > > further 3 lakh rupees ($6,000) for other reporters, they could guarantee > > coverage in up to five newspapers for two weeks. > > > > "We would do good coverage for you," he says they told him. All of those > > who approached him either were from national Hindi language papers or > > regional papers, Mr. Goyal says. > > > > “You want a front page photo for free? This is something people pay for.” > > > > In one case, he went along to see what would happen: a press release he > > submitted full of falsehoods – claiming he had campaigned in places he > > had never been, for instance – ran verbatim. One thing he has never seen > > on his real campaign: a reporter there to cover the story. > > > > "It's disappointing," Mr. Goyal says. "What good is literacy and > > education if people have no access to real news, investigation, > > skepticism or a questioning reporter." > > > > At the nexus of corruption in India, the nation's newspapers usually > > play either vigilante cop exposing wrongdoing in the public interest (on > > a good day, at a few publications) or spineless patsy killing stories on > > the orders of powerful advertisers. Many papers also engage in practices > > that cross the ethical line between advertising and editorial in a way > > that is opaque, if not downright obscure, to readers. > > > > But it is of another order of magnitude to see reporters, editors and > > newspaper owners holding the democratic process to ransom. A free (in > > every sense) press is an integral part of a vibrant democracy. A corrupt > > press is both symptom and perpetrator of a rotten democracy. > > > > "I'm not saying all media is biased but there is a growing sense in > > people's minds that a lot of the media is biased," says Anil Bairwal, > > national coordinator of National Election Watch. "Some do it in a > > sublime manner and some do it openly." > > > > So why are we surprised when the voter turnout is so low, despite the > > much-touted surge of political awareness among the young and > > post-Mumbai? It's all part and parcel of the public disgust with the > > political system and the pillars of the Establishment that support that > > system as well. For every newly-minted reform-minded, politically aware > > voter, there are probably hundreds of jaded citizens who just decide the > > heck with it. > > > > How widespread is the practice of pay per say? > > > > The best-known English-language dailies typically don't do it so > > blatantly, candidates and others involved in the elections say. Rather, > > those papers are more likely to hue closely to one major party or the > > other, making it tough for candidates who don't fit the papers' view of > > the world to be heard. But in the Hindi, Urdu and Gujarati media, to > > name a few, the practice is widespread, candidates say. > > > > N. Gopalaswami, retired Chief Election Commissioner, says in an > > interview, "This is not something that can be ignored. It is not just a > > few apparent cases, it is much more than that." > > > > He has heard of newspapers proferring a rate card - one price for > > positive coverage, another for not negative coverage. The commission > > heard complaints in both 2007 and 2008 about candidates being charged > > for coverage. Among them, the national Communist parties who don't have > > the deep coffers to spend on campaigns. > > > > In Mumbai, a city appropriately geared to commerce, politicians are > > faced with multiple payment options. Consider these phrases from > > newspaper editors and brokers, which I culled from campaigners: > > > > "You want a front page photo for free? This is something people pay for." > > > > "If you want a picture in there or if you want a story, we have to be > paid." > > > > "We're going to publish the interview, but you need to buy 5,000 copies > > of our paper." > > > > "1.2 lakhs ($2,400) for the next two weeks and I will take care of all > > that coverage." > > > > —Paul Beckett is the WSJ's bureau chief in New Delhi > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > -- > sukanya ghosh / +91 9831306925 > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com Sun May 10 20:00:52 2009 From: rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com (Rajen Uppinangadi) Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 20:00:52 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Public library. Message-ID: <61164a90905100730m7afb3736lf06acabd96501da2@mail.gmail.com> Dear Rakesh, thanks for well thought out post with good cohesive thoughts.Yes, for individuals like me in our formative years, the public library was a source of information, both from the written world of media, newspapers, magazines and learned people.Information is knowledge, knowledge is power, power to judge right from wrong in society. It also ignites the mind to think positively for us and for all in society. Thanks, Regards, Rajen. From c.anupam at gmail.com Sun May 10 20:03:26 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 20:03:26 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] WSJ on the Indian media - "Want Press Coverage? Give Me Some Money" In-Reply-To: <378416.35631.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <378416.35631.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <341380d00905100733m6a0a94a5u3fefc3d83da1486a@mail.gmail.com> Dear Kshmendra, It is only Times of india and Hindu which can afford to import newsprint for all the editions of newspaper. there are three factories which essentially supply newsprint, Nepanagar, Jagiroad, and im not sure about the third. all these newsprint industries are under GoI and the production is accordingly controlled. However, i maintain that there are other forms of media for example internet where media can remain independent and fair. but due to the limited reach this medium has not proved to be success especially in the rural areas. you are not wrongly pointing out anything but i think i know your precise intention in attacking whatever i have been writing and trying to cite a contradiction, which surprisingly is a learning for me as well. so you are not wrong in any case. the onus remains on the newspaper and kind of profits it can make to keep itself out of the state control. moreover, with the news of recession and other such things, todays news paper are mostly earning their revenue from the state corporations thanks anupam On 5/10/09, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > Dear Anupam > > You wrote "free press is marginalised by the state and its functionaries.", > seemingly linking it up with "newspapers essentially buy newsprint from > state." > > Isnt Newsprint in India freely available, freely importable? Where does the > "State" come in other than in specifying Import Duties (which are not > exploitative) and local taxation? > > Yes there was a time when there was next to none Newsprint production in > India and it's Import was controlled by the "State Trading Corpn." > (STC), the "State" thereby exercising pressures through rationed allocations > of Newsprint. > > That is not the situation now. Is it? > > If I am not mistaken, Newsprint continues to be made available by the > "State" at SUBSIDISED rates for specific purposes and in limited quantities > allocated to specific users. But it is the "User's" choice to source such > Newsprint from the "State". It is not forced upon anyone. > > There is no compulsion on Newspapers to buy Newsprint from the "State". > > Please correct me if my understanding(s) are wrong because I found your > statement strange and (to the extent of the knowledge I have) conveying an > incorrect impression of there being State Control or State Pressure on > Newspapers through control on Newsprint. > > Kshmendra > > > --- On *Fri, 5/8/09, anupam chakravartty * wrote: > > > From: anupam chakravartty > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] WSJ on the Indian media - "Want Press Coverage? > Give Me Some Money" > To: "sarai list" > Date: Friday, May 8, 2009, 12:30 PM > > certain other truths about newspapers: > > newspapers essentially buy newsprint from state. > > one newspaper costs Rs 15, while its sold for Rs 3-4 to the reader. > > free press is marginalised by the state and its functionaries. > > a reporter essentially fears a rejoinder. > > > > > On 5/8/09, sukanya ghosh wrote: > > > > Sad but true. It's no surprise to learn of coverage > 'bartering' for > > politicians. Seems to me a logical enough step considering that most > > other news coverage can consist of bought spaces. The entertainment > > pages (which unfortunately bleed their way insidiously into most other > > pages) are established norms for this. It seems to me that a 'free > > press' in our country exists in a very marginal way. Someone I met > once > > who worked for a leading English language daily told me very pompously > > that 'they' (read 'educated journalist'), had nothing to > do with and > > were not to be associated with what the rest of the paper was saying. > > Their reach consisted of being confined to the editorial pages of which > > they were supremely proud of. Never mind that the paper has various > > other pages of 'news', many supplements and an incredibly bad > Sunday > > magazine. Are we to be thankful that we have a page of actual reading > > material (some of it occasionally good) and assume the rest is all > > trash? Another leading daily in another city (also English) has in place > > various marketing bundles which allow you to 'purchase' news > coverage. > > And these are not covert or shadowy backroom deals - it's all very > out > > there for the right buyers. We see newspapers, news channels owned by > > particular organisations who seem to spend a lot of their time exhorting > > the virtues of events / news pertaining to those organisations. And my > > pet grouse, all this while the arts sections keep shrinking in size day > > by day. Where trying to get coverage for an event / exhibition / book > > (no matter how significant) can lead to nail biting finish, wondering if > > the reporter (who has been given detailed press releases) will at least > > get the name right. > > > > The irony being of course that there is no dearth of news of the > > sensational variety if one were to attempt to report just facts in the > > case of Indian politics. But that would mean effort and interest. And > > that surely is lacking in our press coverages. > > > > > > > > > > Rana Dasgupta wrote: > > > Want Press Coverage? Give Me Some Money > > > > > > By PAUL BECKETT > > > > > > Ajay Goyal is a serious, independent candidate contesting for a Lok > > > Sabha seat in Chandigarh. > > > Never heard of him? Neither, probably, have a lot of people in > > > Chandigarh because when it came to getting press coverage for his > > > campaign he was faced with a simple message: If you want press, you > have > > > to pay. > > > > > > So far, he says, he's been approached by about 10 people – some > brokers > > > and public relations managers acting on behalf of newspaper owners, > some > > > reporters and editors – with the message that he'll only get > written > > > about in the news pages for a fee. We're not talking advertising; > we're > > > talking news. > > > > > > One broker offered three weeks of coverage in four newspapers for 10 > > > lakh rupees ($20,000). A reporter and a photographer from a > Chandigarh > > > newspaper told him that for 1.5 lakh rupees ($3,000) for them and a > > > further 3 lakh rupees ($6,000) for other reporters, they could > guarantee > > > coverage in up to five newspapers for two weeks. > > > > > > "We would do good coverage for you," he says they told him. > All of those > > > who approached him either were from national Hindi language papers or > > > regional papers, Mr. Goyal says. > > > > > > “You want a front page photo for free? This is something people pay > for.” > > > > > > In one case, he went along to see what would happen: a press release > he > > > submitted full of falsehoods – claiming he had campaigned in places > he > > > had never been, for instance – ran verbatim. One thing he has never > seen > > > on his real campaign: a reporter there to cover the story. > > > > > > "It's disappointing," Mr. Goyal says. "What good > is literacy and > > > education if people have no access to real news, investigation, > > > skepticism or a questioning reporter." > > > > > > At the nexus of corruption in India, the nation's newspapers > usually > > > play either vigilante cop exposing wrongdoing in the public interest > (on > > > a good day, at a few publications) or spineless patsy killing stories > on > > > the orders of powerful advertisers. Many papers also engage in > practices > > > that cross the ethical line between advertising and editorial in a > way > > > that is opaque, if not downright obscure, to readers. > > > > > > But it is of another order of magnitude to see reporters, editors and > > > newspaper owners holding the democratic process to ransom. A free (in > > > every sense) press is an integral part of a vibrant democracy. A > corrupt > > > press is both symptom and perpetrator of a rotten democracy. > > > > > > "I'm not saying all media is biased but there is a growing > sense in > > > people's minds that a lot of the media is biased," says Anil > Bairwal, > > > national coordinator of National Election Watch. "Some do it in > a > > > sublime manner and some do it openly." > > > > > > So why are we surprised when the voter turnout is so low, despite the > > > much-touted surge of political awareness among the young and > > > post-Mumbai? It's all part and parcel of the public disgust with > the > > > political system and the pillars of the Establishment that support > that > > > system as well. For every newly-minted reform-minded, politically > aware > > > voter, there are probably hundreds of jaded citizens who just decide > the > > > heck with it. > > > > > > How widespread is the practice of pay per say? > > > > > > The best-known English-language dailies typically don't do it so > > > blatantly, candidates and others involved in the elections say. > Rather, > > > those papers are more likely to hue closely to one major party or the > > > other, making it tough for candidates who don't fit the > papers' view of > > > the world to be heard. But in the Hindi, Urdu and Gujarati media, to > > > name a few, the practice is widespread, candidates say. > > > > > > N. Gopalaswami, retired Chief Election Commissioner, says in an > > > interview, "This is not something that can be ignored. It is not > just a > > > few apparent cases, it is much more than that." > > > > > > He has heard of newspapers proferring a rate card - one price for > > > positive coverage, another for not negative coverage. The commission > > > heard complaints in both 2007 and 2008 about candidates being charged > > > for coverage. Among them, the national Communist parties who > don't have > > > the deep coffers to spend on campaigns. > > > > > > In Mumbai, a city appropriately geared to commerce, politicians are > > > faced with multiple payment options. Consider these phrases from > > > newspaper editors and brokers, which I culled from campaigners: > > > > > > "You want a front page photo for free? This is something people > pay for." > > > > > > "If you want a picture in there or if you want a story, we have > to be > > paid." > > > > > > "We're going to publish the interview, but you need to buy > 5,000 copies > > > of our paper." > > > > > > "1.2 lakhs ($2,400) for the next two weeks and I will take care > of all > > > that coverage." > > > > > > —Paul Beckett is the WSJ's bureau chief in New Delhi > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > > sukanya ghosh / +91 9831306925 > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > From c.anupam at gmail.com Sun May 10 20:06:32 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 20:06:32 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Happy Sunday :) Library and Garbage bins In-Reply-To: <800399.14447.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <341380d00905100443w170c5148gadccf356d43c849@mail.gmail.com> <800399.14447.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <341380d00905100736g24a99a9ctab781ddcefeec64f@mail.gmail.com> thanks kshmendra but why have u attached quotes to the word strip. i dont understand. pray tell. On 5/10/09, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > Anupam > Delightful 'strip'. Thanks > > Rakesh > Public libraries would serve an excellent purpose. The poor and homeless > could find temporary refuge in them, getting shielded from the cold and > protected from heat. > > Only problem in that might be along the lines of the news story "US library > bans 'offensive bodily odours' from entering!" > http://in.news.yahoo.com/139/20090415/959/tod-us-library-bans-offensive-bodily-odo.html > > Wonder how 'library going elite' (for elite they would be in comparison) > would react to the poor and homeless in the 'public space' of a public > library > > Kshmendra > > > > --- On *Sun, 5/10/09, anupam chakravartty * wrote: > > > From: anupam chakravartty > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Happy Sunday :) Library and Garbage bins > To: "sarai list" > Date: Sunday, May 10, 2009, 5:13 PM > > Here's a little library's story. > http://www.soundofdrowning.com/lib.html > > regards anupam > > > On 5/10/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > > > > Dear Jeebesh (and all) > > > > While the heat in this list could have been tackled by means of more > > personal chats and more respect of both sides' views from the other > > sides, here I wish to express my views on the first issue you have > > raised. > > > > Any issue, be it water, roads, health, education, or even a public > > library, can be addressed. However, there are umpteen points regarding > > as to why it is not an issue. And they are numerous in our system of > > democracy (or as in Gulaal they say, it's just autocracy in the name > > of democracy). > > > > The first issue here is about the way our democratic system works. It > > is a system which is half full and half empty, meaning that it is 50% > > democratic and 50% not, if one were to quote Ramachandra Guha from his > > book 'India After Gandhi'. And it certainly is. We do have a > system > > which has elections and the transition of power after elections is > > also smooth. However, that's it. Our system begins and ends with > > elections. After that, nobody cares. We never look at things beyond > > elections. Any criticism of a government takes place only with the > > point of view of elections. > > > > What this means is that only those issues which are important from the > > election point of view, would be addressed. But the question arises, > > as to then which issues are important, if they are there at all? Here, > > our media and the grassroots are totally at crossroads. The media > > feels the PM or the CM at the state level are more important issues > > than say water supply, health or education. On the other hand, the > > candidates realize that is not necessarily the case, and they > > concentrate on the kind of developmental works undertaken and some or > > the other sops being given. > > > > And what are these developmental works actually? The issues of > > livelihood. The issues of roti, kapda and makan. And if one may add to > > it, in a certain way they are related to bijli, sadak aur paani. These > > are the issues which are uppermost in the minds of the people. One > > must understand that with the kind of society we are, a caste and > > religion-biased society, where Brahmins wouldn't eat with Muslims or > > Dalits, where now even the OBC's live separately from them and where > > inter-caste marriages are even now abhorred, at least in rural areas, > > the kind of politicians who would emerge would also concentrate only > > on giving doles to their supporters or caste/religion members as cash > > or some kind of incentive. > > > > With the competition between people of different castes and religions > > for such govt. doles and rewards like jobs, rather than them fighting > > together for a common cause (long back this happened under Gandhi's > > movements), and with the kind of society we are (where people revel in > > having contacts with the powerful and the rich rather than following > > rules), all want a common minimum level of existence, from where > > education is excluded. > > > > Also, no political party has been imaginative enough to put health and > > education as basic issues in their campaigns and trying to corner the > > incumbent governments either during elections or during other times > > through mass based movements. Neither have non-political organizations > > played a successful role in this part during such times to ensure that > > such issues are addressed, which does not mean that they haven't > > tried; it simply means they haven't tried enough or the results are > > not enough. > > > > People in general also have little patience to understand the > > complexity of issues. That is why we have experts to understand them. > > But one must remember that things should also be made palatable to the > > electorate to back you. In this case, Manmohan Singh is a huge > > failure, precisely because he has never contested an election himself. > > And Advani may have an advantage here mainly because he has won a Lok > > Sabha election before this at least, so he could understand possibly > > how to make an issue and its solution palatable to the public. (This > > is a possibility, not necessarily the actuality). > > > > The second issue we have forgotten is in our society who is doing > > what. The poor don't have the power to actually undertake movements on > > their own and fight a battle which can yield results. I don't mean to > > say that the poor can't undertake movements. The poor in many states > > may have actually done so, but one must remember that in today's > > times, when our politicians are image-conscious, things which are not > > popular are not going to make much headway. Therefore, one must > > realize that unless such things are popular or in the mainstream > > media, it is very difficult to get the point across. > > > > Moreover, the poor are more concerned with their livelihoods, which is > > the most important issue for them. Things like library are non-issues > > from their point of view. > > > > The rich on the other hand do have the power, so also the middle > > class. The media is also on this side. However, we have tended to > > concentrate more on issues which are not going to help the poor at > > all. Forget that, we have not even concentrated on issues which can > > help the society at large. Even in the voting campaigns, people are > > being encouraged to vote. But the moot point remains this: if all the > > candidates are corrupt, what is the point of voting, even if for the > > least corrupt candidate? After all, corruption be it of Re. 1 or lakhs > > can and should not be tolerated. If terrorism is not tolerated, how > > come corruption is tolerated? > > > > Similarly, Hindutva seems also to be an issue going by some great > > Rediff articles and views expressed on them. Malls and removal of > > slums are issues, even though people don't try to understand at all > > the situational changes which can take place by having malls at > > certain places, or even the problems in slums and how they can be > > corrected without removing them. And of course, we have some other > > nonsense things to talk about. > > > > Conclusion: > > > > The library is a public good, and ultimately the library will benefit > > the public. The problem is that the rich don't want to fight for it as > > they think it's useless to involve themselves in such fights which are > > unprofitable (or non-money yielding). The poor don't fight for it as > > they have more important issues to look at. The media doesn't take it > > up as it's not a 'TRP-giving' news to be looked at, or it is > too > > serious. And our politicians being image-conscious, believe that > > these are not the things which will fetch them votes. > > > > So the library is a non-starter in our cities. > > > > And so, we don't have spaces in public to debate with on a personal > > level by and large. > > > > Regards > > > > Rakesh > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > From senainarama at gmail.com Sun May 10 20:30:44 2009 From: senainarama at gmail.com (S e n a i n K h e s h g i) Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 08:00:44 -0700 Subject: [Reader-list] SARAI reader list Message-ID: Please unsubscribe my email thank you From monica at sarai.net Sun May 10 22:42:30 2009 From: monica at sarai.net (Monica Narula) Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 22:42:30 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Nigeria surpasses Hollywood Message-ID: <96733B39-99BD-420C-BC16-CAA41B2AE39C@sarai.net> Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 19:00:17 -0400 From: UNNews ____________ NIGERIA SURPASSES HOLLYWOOD AS WORLD'S SECOND LARGEST FILM PRODUCER - UN New York, May 5 2009 7:00PM The Nigerian film industry has overtaken Hollywood and closed the gap on India, the global leader in the number of movies produced each year, according to a new United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (<"http://portal.unesco.org/en/ev.php-URL_ID=45317&URL_DO=DO_TOPIC&URL_SECTION=201.html ">UNESCO) report released today. According to the UNESCO Institute for Statistics (UIS) survey, Bollywood - as the Mumbai-based film industry is known - produced 1,091 feature- length films in 2006. In comparison, Nigeria's moviemakers, commonly known as Nollywood, came out with 872 productions - all in video format - while the United States produced 485 major films. "Film and video production are shining examples of how cultural industries, as vehicles of identity, values and meanings, can open the door to dialogue and understanding between peoples, but also to economic growth and development," said UNESCO Director-General Koïchiro Matsuura. "This new data on film and video production provides yet more proof of the need to rethink the place of culture on the international political agenda," he added. The three cinema heavyweights were followed by eight countries that produced more than 100 films: Japan (417), China (330), France (203), Germany (174), Spain (150), Italy (116), South Korea (110) and the United Kingdom (104). Key to Nollywood's explosive success is Nigerian filmmakers' reliance on video instead of film, reducing production costs, and, as the survey points out, the West African country has virtually no formal cinemas, with about 99 per cent of screenings in informal settings, such as home theatres. The survey also revealed that about 56 per cent of Nollywood films are made in local languages, while English remains a prominent language, accounting for 44 per cent, which may contribute to Nigeria's success in exporting its films. According to the study, US movies continue to dominate cinema admissions around the world, and all of the top ten films seen in Australia, Bulgaria Canada, Costa Rica, Namibia, Romania, and Slovenia were US made. ________________ For more details go to UN News Centre at http://www.un.org/news Monica Narula Raqs Media Collective Sarai-CSDS www.raqsmediacollective.net www.sarai.net From rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com Sun May 10 22:51:11 2009 From: rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com (Rajen Uppinangadi) Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 22:51:11 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] newsprint and quota system. Message-ID: <61164a90905101021y674ce466n3b07e2fa4246fba4@mail.gmail.com> Dear Anupam, in some posts you were chastising me that you are a journalist, you are widely traveled and are in touch with ground realities, but this post of yours on news print allows you to be rip wan wrinkle in time wrap, any way for the comments that you made about me , about Varuns sayings, it was facts that was posted, as only channel not to carry the clarification by the daily telegraph was ibnnews. I do not expect you to apologize because with the modern journalists it is well known fact that they hardly have the morals or ethics to apologize when they are wrong and caught with pants down.! Regards, Rajen. From shuddha at sarai.net Sun May 10 23:14:34 2009 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 23:14:34 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Happy Sunday :) Library and Garbage bins In-Reply-To: <341380d00905100443w170c5148gadccf356d43c849@mail.gmail.com> References: <2A440E57-F130-4B8B-86B4-4E1312D4D6BC@sarai.net> <341380d00905100443w170c5148gadccf356d43c849@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <932FBAB1-3AC9-4FF2-9F84-271AC8C037FE@sarai.net> Dear all, On the happy-sad subject of libraries (because their presence makes me happy and their absence makes me sad), here is a little something i wrote a few years ago for the literary page of the Hindu newspaper at the invitation of Ranjit Hoskote. You can see the contributions made by other invitees by following the link below. Its nothing much, but I thought I would share it since the subject of libraries has come up. best, Shuddha ----------------- Call for a readers' uprising http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/mag/2006/09/03/stories/ 2006090300030100.htm I owe more or less the origins of everything I have cared to know to the hours spent as an awkwardly solitary child and teenager in the womb of a few libraries in Delhi. The Delhi Transport Corporation's 40 paise tickets would take me on long bus rides every week to the lost libraries of Nalanda and Alexandria, as I hopped from one Delhi library to another, running away from the purgatories of school and the playground, reliving the history of the written word through hot summer afternoons. In my childhood, my guardian saints were bus conductors and librarians. One took me to the other. My world, composed almost entirely of books, lay in their special custody. `Bookish' was almost an expletive when I was growing up, an expression usually marked by a snarl, at best by the condescending sneer of inverted snobbery and muscular athleticism. It is therefore with some pleasure that I now witness the return of the book and of reading, of `bookishness' even, into public life. There is even a perverse pleasure to be had in knowing that the non-reading chattering class has to endure the fact of a `reading' in order to access the social smarm of a book launch. But elsewhere, away from page three, a quiet revolution is under way. Each day a new independent publisher seems to be announcing an imprint. Cafes open book corners to ensure that customers stay for more than one cup of coffee. The `reader' is a demanding, gregarious, desirous creature and she is to be found everywhere. On the Delhi metro with a book between stops, on the streets, aided and abetted by the honourable book pirate and the second-hand book seller, sharing what she reads by handing out nicely bound xerox copies of expensive books to friends. Reading and writing circles proliferate online and in physical spaces. Meanwhile publishers and intellectual property sharks hike the prices of books, libraries deteriorate, conspiring to quell the readers' silent uprising. There is an urgent need for a greater public space that can accommodate the expanding culture of reading. Most importantly, what this means is libraries, millions of more libraries. It is a crying shame that no major city in India has a hospitable public library system, with an accessible, well-funded, capacious public library. Delhi has the Delhi Public Library (which is no longer very public, and hardly a library) hidden away and overshadowed by the Old Delhi Railway Station, where books are kept in a kind of charming old-world purdah, as far away from readers as possible. Budgets for the acquisition of new books are next to non-existent, and the books themselves languish, uncared for, in various stages of decay in darkened corners of a cramped space. The satellite libraries of the Delhi Public Library system in different neighbourhoods of the city have died unmourned deaths, or are in a terminal state. What is doubly unfortunate is that the tradition of private collections forming the nucleus of public libraries, which resulted in the treasure houses that are the Rampur Raza Library, the Khuda Baksh Library in Patna, the Sarasvati Mahal Library in Thanjavur or the David Sassooon Library in Mumbai seems to have gone completely un- emulated. I am not aware of any significant act of philanthropy in the decades following independence that has resulted in the formation of a viable contemporary public library building effort anywhere in India. The nation has failed its readers. Now it is the turn of readers to form their own mobile republic of libraries with a shareable, photocopiable, downloadable, easy-to-pirate constitution. On 10-May-09, at 5:13 PM, anupam chakravartty wrote: > Here's a little library's story. > > http://www.soundofdrowning.com/lib.html > > regards anupam > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From A.Khanna at sms.ed.ac.uk Sun May 10 23:29:23 2009 From: A.Khanna at sms.ed.ac.uk (A Khanna) Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 18:59:23 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] random question...did you study about the Emergency at school? Message-ID: <20090510185923.j98vae4dcg4co88s@www.sms.ed.ac.uk> hi, just wondering...does anyone who was in school in India post 1976 (and i guess that's many people on this list) remember studying about the Emergency at school...in Civics or History or anything? as a child born to a family that was displaced from delhi due to events related indirectly to the emergency i was to hear some aspects of it recounted often at home, but as i remember, it simply did not exist in the narrative of the indian nation that we were offered in the ICSE syllabus in the 1980s. what was it like in other boards of education? school is ofcourse only one of many places where these stories are told, but am wondering in the context of the return of the ghost of Sanjay Gandhi in the form of his dramatic son (and his apparent desire for a policy of coercive sterilization, that trope that seems to get its power through its attachment to a metaphor of emasculation) how we remember that period. akshay -- The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC005336. From shveta at sarai.net Sun May 10 23:46:20 2009 From: shveta at sarai.net (Shveta) Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 23:46:20 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Happy Sunday :) Library and Garbage bins In-Reply-To: <8011FC77-47E6-43A0-BE4A-09FB7C2ACDD4@sarai.net> References: <2A440E57-F130-4B8B-86B4-4E1312D4D6BC@sarai.net> <8011FC77-47E6-43A0-BE4A-09FB7C2ACDD4@sarai.net> Message-ID: <4A0719F4.2090004@sarai.net> dear All, Wanted to share a visit to a small library last year, in Dakshinpuri, a resettlement colony in South Delhi. Dakshinpuri emerged in the mid-70s, when people evicted from squatter settlements/slums all over Delhi during the Emergency were given 22.5 sq m plots of land and settled here in large numbers. In the late-70s, the municipality had built a structure which housed a TV centre, a one room library and a dispensary here. The TV centre fell into disuse in the mid-80s, the dispensary moved away to another site. The library continues. It's a small room, about 24 sq m, with a high ceiling. It has a wooden table for the librarian, and perpendicular to it are two long reading tables. Six chairs. Dark coloured metal shelf-almirahs are lined along three walls. I picked up an english translation of Vinod Kumar Shukl's 'Deewar Mein Khirki Rehti Thi' (There was a window in the wall). It had not been issued ever. The man in-charge was in his mid-30s, and extremely generous and comfortable with visitors. He had worked in a braille library earlier, and also in the big Delhi Public Library in Old Delhi. There was one reader in the library, man about 45 years, who has been coming to the library regularly for the last 2 years, and spends most of his time reading the newspapers. My friend who'd led me to the library, Rakesh, remembers the library from his childhood. He used to watch screenings on the huge screen in the TV centre in the evenings, and fondly remembers the earlier, old librarian popularly called Netaji in the neighbourhood. According to Rakesh, Netaji was a solitary man, but would visit the houses of people who happened to not have returned the library books on time. Once, a story goes, the father of the firl who had issued a book and forgotten to return it, had exclaimed to Netaji, "You should have come before she got married! Now she's taken the book with her." Many such stories are associated with Netaji and the library. The present librarian said the library sometimes receives gifts of books from people, but this is usually not encouraged. The accession policy of the library is centralised, with the head office in Sarojini Nagar as the sole authority that takes decisions on this. A young girl returned a novel in Hindi and issued a cookery book. An adolescent boy issues 'Phoolon Wali Raat' (The night of the flowers) on his father's card. Saraswati, 34-years-old is yet to return a book on Primary Teachers' Entrance Exam. Arun Kumar, 17 years, issued 'Career Counseling' a few days ago. Abhishek, 15 years, has issued 'Shiva Mahapurana' (Tales of Lord Shiva) and Manoj Kumar, 23 years, 'Tales of Buddha'. Saurabh, 12 years, has taken the book 'India and Its International Relations'. Gaurav, 14, has 'Computer Science' and Vinod, 18, 'Gems from the caves of Orissa'. 'Best of Tenali Rama' has been issed to Surya Karan, 18-years-old. Farhan, 13, has 'Tenali Rama'. Sonu Suleman, 29 years, is reading about 'Internet and the Modern Library'. Ashok Kumar, 14 years is reading 'Wonders of the Animal World'. Mohan, 16 years, 'The Dreams of Outer Space'. 'Discovery Channel Vigyan Sangraha' (Discovery Channel's Science Compendium) has been issued by Prem Pal, 10 years and Mahinder, 44 years. Hoshiyar Singh, 45 years, has 'Goodwill's Common Errors in English' and 'Improve Your English'. Govind Lal Sharma, 38 years, has 'The McGraw Hill Handbook of English Grammar'. What is Nikhil Bansal, 14 years, doing with 'Buddhimaan Bahu' (The Intelligent Daughter-in-Law)? Bhagchandra, 21 years, seems to be preparing for his Civil Service exams on political science and international relations. Many young men came to the library looking for employment news. They spent a lot of time going through the details in the employment newspapers. One came looking specifically for the employment news of a particular date. Piyush, 9 years and Megha, 10 years, seem to be brother and sister, heavily into adventures. Amrita Khanna, 13 years, Roshni, 18 years, Sushma, 16 years, Shubha, 20 years, Manju, 14 years, Renu, 24 years, Meena, 18 years have issued books on environmental quiz, Chanakya Niti (Chanakya's Counsel), english grammar, small scale industries, feature writing. Tell Me Why. Kailash Chand from neighbouring Pushpa Vihar has issued 'School of Wizadry'. There is a small, dimly lit room adjunct to the library. Books, arranged in many piles, around 20 to a bundle, wait to be taken to the shredder. They are all old books, their original covers and binding have come apart. On top of one of the piles lies the book, 'Dilli Badal Gayi' (Delhi has changed) by Shri Lakshman Narayan Sharma, Aviram Prakashan, 1996. It has not been issued once. The most issued book in the library is 'Kartoon ki Kahani', Aruna Prakshan, 1990. warmly shveta Monica Narula wrote: > Talking of libraries and books, here is an interesting link > > http://strangemaps.wordpress.com/2009/04/08/373-a-map-of-the-land-of-books/ > > You can see a picture of a map of the land of books :-) > > and below is the description from that page. > > best > M > This map by German illustrator Alphons Woelfle (1938) shows the extent > and the divisions of Bücherland (the Land of Books). The Land consists > of about half a dozen distinct territories, most of which are > explicitly named: Leserrepublik (Reader’s Republic), Vereinigte > Buchhandelsstaaten (United States of Booksellers), Recensentia (a > realm for Reviewers), Makulaturia (Waste Paper Land), and Poesia > (Poetry). The capital of the US of B is the city of Officina (Latin > for workshop, and the origin of our ‘office’; the name seems > remarkably unremarkable. Possibly there is an old reference or a > German word-joke here we’re not getting). > > Plotting out imagined places on a map as if they were “real” countries > is a favourite trope in curious cartography. The artificial equation > of place and meaning allows for double-entendres and other humorous > leaps of the imagination on which this allegorical form of cartography > thrives. As a sub-genre of cartography, it has been around since at > least La carte de tendre, an 18th-century French map of love’s > topography (discussed in entry #245 of this blog). Other examples > previously discussed include a Map on Temperance (#258) or a German > map of the Empire of Love (#59). > > This map was possibly commissioned by the Heimeran Verlag (publishing > house) of Munich, a frequent employer of Mr Woelfle’s artisanship – > although no information could be found relating to the specific > circumstances of this map. One can only presume that it illustrated a > book about books, or more precisely, a book about publishing. The look > and feel of the map is definitely older than its mid-20th-century age; > in a positive case of antiquarianism (i.e. lending something > respectability by increasing its age), it has been made to resemble > the maps of earlier times (17th, 18th century, I’d say). > > Monica Narula > Raqs Media Collective > Sarai-CSDS > www.raqsmediacollective.net > www.sarai.net > > > > On 10-May-09, at 6:07 AM, Jeebesh wrote: > > >> Dear All, >> >> It's Sunday morning in Delhi. It's nice and warm. The birds are >> eagerly practicing flight as the afternoon sun will start draining >> them. The ants crawl the trees in quick hope of feed. Heat will slowly >> make them much less mobile as the day progresses. Delhi summer heat >> beats down everyone. Very little insight comes of it :) >> >> Is it possible to calm the heat down in this list? Well here is a >> suggestion. >> >> Can we together explore two questions that can maybe give us all some >> vantage point to better understand the milieu we live in. >> >> 1) Why is there almost no public library in the cities in India? >> Simple places that one goes to read and meet people from other walks >> of life. >> >> Was recently in Montreal and was taken to the newly built public >> library there. It has been jointly built by the municipality, the >> province and the federal funding. It is managed by an group of >> librarian and has already developed an amazing collection of books. >> It's children section was an amazing zone. The library had a sitting >> arrangement for many hundred and has wireless connectivity. >> >> 2) Why are the public garbage bin's design so unimaginative in the >> cities in India? We keep hearing so much about enormous garbage being >> produced by our increasingly visible and affluent middle class and so >> little innovation in garbage bins. Huge fences guard the various >> localities but the garbage bins remain undesigned and overflowing. >> This is a strange anomaly. >> >> Thought this maybe a good starting point for sunday thinking :) >> >> warmly >> Jeebesh From c.anupam at gmail.com Mon May 11 10:21:13 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 10:21:13 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] newsprint and quota system. In-Reply-To: <61164a90905101021y674ce466n3b07e2fa4246fba4@mail.gmail.com> References: <61164a90905101021y674ce466n3b07e2fa4246fba4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00905102151m1a2e1861l731748cd536ea93@mail.gmail.com> Dear Rajen, I should remind you that the comments you post against media shows how aware are you about the issues. Instead of personally visiting the places, you rely on media itself to provide you with information. which means most of time your arguments are laced with opinions borrowed from same channels that you criticize. and so are your opinions. you have not said what you mean by 'rip van winkle in time wrap'. kindly substantiate with facts instead of just attacking me with colourful words. it would be a learning process for me as i am not claiming that some mr know-it-all. -anupam P.S. Instead of sending a personal mail to and sending the same copy to reader's list is waste of space. why dont u use reader's list? On 5/10/09, Rajen Uppinangadi wrote: > > Dear Anupam, > > in some posts you were chastising me that you are a journalist, you are > widely traveled and are in touch with ground realities, but this post of > yours on news print allows you to be rip wan wrinkle in time wrap, any way > for the comments that you made about me , about Varuns sayings, it was facts > that was posted, as only channel not to carry the clarification by the daily > telegraph was ibnnews. I do not expect you to apologize because with the > modern journalists it is well known fact that they hardly have the morals or > ethics to apologize when they are wrong and caught with pants down.! > > Regards, > Rajen. > From rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com Mon May 11 13:35:54 2009 From: rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com (Rajen Uppinangadi) Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 13:35:54 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] No mention of emergency anywhere in schooling ? Message-ID: <61164a90905110105o44a9fd3bn5a73167c6011b5c8@mail.gmail.com> Sir, you have hit the nail on the head of psuedo- seculars while talkong about emergency and the role of executive and judiciary in those days. But for one Justice Khanna and his dissent with ten other judges of the constitution bench of Supreme court, who were crawling when asked to bend, nowhere else ne will find mention of emergency and the drastic draconian actions that followed it.Nor will anyone see the mention of emergency except in passing reference once in a while in discussion as for those who suffered, it was painful trauma fit to forget, for others, it was nothing personal, but for many like me, who had entire family, which was politically congress, it was eye opener that congress is no more congress, after the death of Indira, then Rajiv, it is a bunch of selfcentred sycophants who gave unsung burial for Sevadal, a service brigade, served the villages with people of all walks of life, without emphasis on faith or caste, helped the needy, was the feedback channel to governance and was reason for success of Congress at the village level. Soon, the leaders like Gundu Rao, CM of Karnataka, young turks of Congress believed that only money can bring in votes, the sole emphasis was on mobilisation of people with food, liqour and money,for rallies, but slogan shouting brigades can never replace the volanteers of sevadal, and hence the rise of RSS in the vaccuum thus created by Sevadal, even RSS later modified its stand on other followers of faith, gave importance to service to tribals, downtrodden and pracharaks went to remote areas to serve the people so far neglected, with eduaction and healthcare. Ofcourse it was also tinged with unifying the divided society of castes and prejudices. At times it makes me wonder when psuedo-secular say RSS is communal, is it wrong to be unifier of the hindu society when all other faiths are united against the injustice why should hindu be victimised because some one is a bania, some one else is jat and if attack on one is seen as attack on that caste, but not an issue for all to protest.? A strong society of all faiths' followers live inharmony as none would clash as they know the rule of laws will punish such attacks without discrimination, thus we have a nation of all faiths respecting all faiths and even followers of no faith as such illegal acts get booked under rule of laws, vote of communes like yadav, jats, banias will not have bulk transfer but go for the performer of good governance without fear or favour. Emergency and days of it, is atmost, discussed in law school when constitution and fundamental rights are dealt in class rooms.But otherwise as citizens, many would like to forget the trauma and go on with life forgetting that we have not done our duty to sensitize the young generation of what an autocratic leadership can undo in democracy. In all walks of life when individual freedom becomes licence and overlooks the freedom of the society, the individuals have to be reminded of emergency days, when such licensious behaviour damaged the life of many in the nation. Most born after freedom may not even know the sacrifices of many thousands of individuals who struggled for the freedom as the "leaders " like Nehru and gandhi shadowing all of them, Congress then had all in its folds, later new outfits in politics came , but to say that the present congress is only the one which struggled for freedom is fallacy unquestioned by anyone as those who could question are no more, those who are there are uninterested in the sycophancy or any of it. One will not find a single individual in present day Congress even remotely associated with struggle for life leave alone freedom, as all these are modern maharajas living on national exchequer. The young generation may not even know the relation between Gandhi and present day Gandhis as the surname is used more as a tool of invoking the votes garnering than about discipline and search for truth.The ideals that mahatma stood for are represented in the roads of cities bearing his name, mahatma gandhi Roads in different cities, fallen wayside,while the airports, stadias stand for the name of first family as testimony of loot and contractors delight of daytime robbery of national exchequer, be it the jawahar stadia, Indira international airport.Widows of ex PMs are no where to see while the first family widow and the generation next has the best known palatial residence in capital for the "sacrifice" .Be it Lalitha Shastri, or a Mrs, Nanda or even Mrs. narasimha rao, the history does not seem to record the work even when it is for good of the nation.? Regards, Rajen. From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Mon May 11 14:46:24 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 02:16:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Nigeria surpasses Hollywood In-Reply-To: <96733B39-99BD-420C-BC16-CAA41B2AE39C@sarai.net> Message-ID: <418602.24774.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> The statistic of 1,091 films in Year 2006 has to be a figure for Indian Films and not for "Bollywood - as the Mumbai-based film industry is known" as has been mentioned in the UNESCO report  --- On Sun, 5/10/09, Monica Narula wrote: From: Monica Narula Subject: [Reader-list] Nigeria surpasses Hollywood To: "Sarai Reader-list" Date: Sunday, May 10, 2009, 10:42 PM Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 19:00:17 -0400 From: UNNews ____________ NIGERIA SURPASSES HOLLYWOOD AS WORLD'S SECOND LARGEST FILM PRODUCER - UN New York, May 5 2009 7:00PM The Nigerian film industry has overtaken Hollywood and closed the gap on India, the global leader in the number of movies produced each year, according to a new United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (<"http://portal.unesco.org/en/ev.php-URL_ID=45317&URL_DO=DO_TOPIC&URL_SECTION=201.html ">UNESCO) report released today. According to the UNESCO Institute for Statistics (UIS) survey, Bollywood - as the Mumbai-based film industry is known - produced 1,091 feature- length films in 2006. In comparison, Nigeria's moviemakers, commonly known as Nollywood, came out with 872 productions - all in video format - while the United States produced 485 major films. "Film and video production are shining examples of how cultural industries, as vehicles of identity, values and meanings, can open the door to dialogue and understanding between peoples, but also to economic growth and development," said UNESCO Director-General Koïchiro Matsuura. "This new data on film and video production provides yet more proof of the need to rethink the place of culture on the international political agenda," he added. The three cinema heavyweights were followed by eight countries that produced more than 100 films: Japan (417), China (330), France (203), Germany (174), Spain (150), Italy (116), South Korea (110) and the United Kingdom (104). Key to Nollywood's explosive success is Nigerian filmmakers' reliance on video instead of film, reducing production costs, and, as the survey points out, the West African country has virtually no formal cinemas, with about 99 per cent of screenings in informal settings, such as home theatres. The survey also revealed that about 56 per cent of Nollywood films are made in local languages, while English remains a prominent language, accounting for 44 per cent, which may contribute to Nigeria's success in exporting its films. According to the study, US movies continue to dominate cinema admissions around the world, and all of the top ten films seen in Australia, Bulgaria Canada, Costa Rica, Namibia, Romania, and Slovenia were US made. ________________ For more details go to UN News Centre at http://www.un.org/news Monica Narula Raqs Media Collective Sarai-CSDS www.raqsmediacollective.net www.sarai.net _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Mon May 11 15:29:55 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 02:59:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Happy Sunday :) Library and Garbage bins In-Reply-To: <4A0719F4.2090004@sarai.net> Message-ID: <27123.4840.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> A few months back I was in NCT / Gurgaon because of a death in the family.   As part of the sombre (bringing everyone down to earth) occasion, it was decided that a "Bhandar" (feed for free, usually the poor) should be organised at the nearby temple.   The Sai Baba temple in Palam Vihar is on the poorer side of the railway track that splices the area.   On the first floor of the temple building in a (perhaps 20ft x 20 ft) room they have a library. All walls are lined with book-cupboards.   The available choice of titles was interesting. The expected 'religious' books but with an interesting non-sectarian Hindu range; also books on Christianity, Islam, Buddhism which judging by the titles were celeberatory and not derogatory; a Medical Encyclopedia here; a boook on Fluid Dynamics there; some shelves of comic books; a whole lot of "Management" books; quite a varied collection.   What brought a smile was the quite a few books of "Popular" fiction; "Pulp" fiction and titles of 'racy' authors    Kshmendra      --- On Sun, 5/10/09, Shveta wrote: From: Shveta Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Happy Sunday :) Library and Garbage bins To: "Monica Narula" Cc: "Sarai Reader-list" Date: Sunday, May 10, 2009, 11:46 PM dear All, Wanted to share a visit to a small library last year, in Dakshinpuri, a resettlement colony in South Delhi. Dakshinpuri emerged in the mid-70s, when people evicted from squatter settlements/slums all over Delhi during the Emergency were given 22.5 sq m plots of land and settled here in large numbers. In the late-70s, the municipality had built a structure which housed a TV centre, a one room library and a dispensary here. The TV centre fell into disuse in the mid-80s, the dispensary moved away to another site. The library continues. It's a small room, about 24 sq m, with a high ceiling. It has a wooden table for the librarian, and perpendicular to it are two long reading tables. Six chairs. Dark coloured metal shelf-almirahs are lined along three walls. I picked up an english translation of Vinod Kumar Shukl's 'Deewar Mein Khirki Rehti Thi' (There was a window in the wall). It had not been issued ever. The man in-charge was in his mid-30s, and extremely generous and comfortable with visitors. He had worked in a braille library earlier, and also in the big Delhi Public Library in Old Delhi. There was one reader in the library, man about 45 years, who has been coming to the library regularly for the last 2 years, and spends most of his time reading the newspapers. My friend who'd led me to the library, Rakesh, remembers the library from his childhood. He used to watch screenings on the huge screen in the TV centre in the evenings, and fondly remembers the earlier, old librarian popularly called Netaji in the neighbourhood. According to Rakesh, Netaji was a solitary man, but would visit the houses of people who happened to not have returned the library books on time. Once, a story goes, the father of the firl who had issued a book and forgotten to return it, had exclaimed to Netaji, "You should have come before she got married! Now she's taken the book with her." Many such stories are associated with Netaji and the library. The present librarian said the library sometimes receives gifts of books from people, but this is usually not encouraged. The accession policy of the library is centralised, with the head office in Sarojini Nagar as the sole authority that takes decisions on this. A young girl returned a novel in Hindi and issued a cookery book. An adolescent boy issues 'Phoolon Wali Raat' (The night of the flowers) on his father's card. Saraswati, 34-years-old is yet to return a book on Primary Teachers' Entrance Exam. Arun Kumar, 17 years, issued 'Career Counseling' a few days ago. Abhishek, 15 years, has issued 'Shiva Mahapurana' (Tales of Lord Shiva) and Manoj Kumar, 23 years, 'Tales of Buddha'. Saurabh, 12 years, has taken the book 'India and Its International Relations'. Gaurav, 14, has 'Computer Science' and Vinod, 18, 'Gems from the caves of Orissa'. 'Best of Tenali Rama' has been issed to Surya Karan, 18-years-old. Farhan, 13, has 'Tenali Rama'. Sonu Suleman, 29 years, is reading about 'Internet and the Modern Library'. Ashok Kumar, 14 years is reading 'Wonders of the Animal World'. Mohan, 16 years, 'The Dreams of Outer Space'. 'Discovery Channel Vigyan Sangraha' (Discovery Channel's Science Compendium) has been issued by Prem Pal, 10 years and Mahinder, 44 years. Hoshiyar Singh, 45 years, has 'Goodwill's Common Errors in English' and 'Improve Your English'. Govind Lal Sharma, 38 years, has 'The McGraw Hill Handbook of English Grammar'. What is Nikhil Bansal, 14 years, doing with 'Buddhimaan Bahu' (The Intelligent Daughter-in-Law)? Bhagchandra, 21 years, seems to be preparing for his Civil Service exams on political science and international relations. Many young men came to the library looking for employment news. They spent a lot of time going through the details in the employment newspapers. One came looking specifically for the employment news of a particular date. Piyush, 9 years and Megha, 10 years, seem to be brother and sister, heavily into adventures. Amrita Khanna, 13 years, Roshni, 18 years, Sushma, 16 years, Shubha, 20 years, Manju, 14 years, Renu, 24 years, Meena, 18 years have issued books on environmental quiz, Chanakya Niti (Chanakya's Counsel), english grammar, small scale industries, feature writing. Tell Me Why. Kailash Chand from neighbouring Pushpa Vihar has issued 'School of Wizadry'. There is a small, dimly lit room adjunct to the library. Books, arranged in many piles, around 20 to a bundle, wait to be taken to the shredder. They are all old books, their original covers and binding have come apart. On top of one of the piles lies the book, 'Dilli Badal Gayi' (Delhi has changed) by Shri Lakshman Narayan Sharma, Aviram Prakashan, 1996. It has not been issued once. The most issued book in the library is 'Kartoon ki Kahani', Aruna Prakshan, 1990. warmly shveta Monica Narula wrote: > Talking of libraries and books, here is an interesting link > > http://strangemaps.wordpress.com/2009/04/08/373-a-map-of-the-land-of-books/ > > You can see a picture of a map of the land of books :-) > > and below is the description from that page. > > best > M > This map by German illustrator Alphons Woelfle (1938) shows the extent > and the divisions of Bücherland (the Land of Books). The Land consists > of about half a dozen distinct territories, most of which are > explicitly named: Leserrepublik (Reader’s Republic), Vereinigte > Buchhandelsstaaten (United States of Booksellers), Recensentia (a > realm for Reviewers), Makulaturia (Waste Paper Land), and Poesia > (Poetry). The capital of the US of B is the city of Officina (Latin > for workshop, and the origin of our ‘office’; the name seems > remarkably unremarkable. Possibly there is an old reference or a > German word-joke here we’re not getting). > > Plotting out imagined places on a map as if they were “real” countries > is a favourite trope in curious cartography. The artificial equation > of place and meaning allows for double-entendres and other humorous > leaps of the imagination on which this allegorical form of cartography > thrives. As a sub-genre of cartography, it has been around since at > least La carte de tendre, an 18th-century French map of love’s > topography (discussed in entry #245 of this blog). Other examples > previously discussed include a Map on Temperance (#258) or a German > map of the Empire of Love (#59). > > This map was possibly commissioned by the Heimeran Verlag (publishing > house) of Munich, a frequent employer of Mr Woelfle’s artisanship – > although no information could be found relating to the specific > circumstances of this map. One can only presume that it illustrated a > book about books, or more precisely, a book about publishing. The look > and feel of the map is definitely older than its mid-20th-century age; > in a positive case of antiquarianism (i.e. lending something > respectability by increasing its age), it has been made to resemble > the maps of earlier times (17th, 18th century, I’d say). > > Monica Narula > Raqs Media Collective > Sarai-CSDS > www.raqsmediacollective.net > www.sarai.net > > > > On 10-May-09, at 6:07 AM, Jeebesh wrote: > > >> Dear All, >> >> It's Sunday morning in Delhi. It's nice and warm. The birds are >> eagerly practicing flight as the afternoon sun will start draining >> them. The ants crawl the trees in quick hope of feed. Heat will slowly >> make them much less mobile as the day progresses. Delhi summer heat >> beats down everyone. Very little insight comes of it :) >> >> Is it possible to calm the heat down in this list? Well here is a >> suggestion. >> >> Can we together explore two questions that can maybe give us all some >> vantage point to better understand the milieu we live in. >> >> 1) Why is there almost no public library in the cities in India? >> Simple places that one goes to read and meet people from other walks >> of life. >> >> Was recently in Montreal and was taken to the newly built public >> library there. It has been jointly built by the municipality, the >> province and the federal funding. It is managed by an group of >> librarian and has already developed an amazing collection of books. >> It's children section was an amazing zone. The library had a sitting >> arrangement for many hundred and has wireless connectivity. >> >> 2) Why are the public garbage bin's design so unimaginative in the >> cities in India? We keep hearing so much about enormous garbage being >> produced by our increasingly visible and affluent middle class and so >> little innovation in garbage bins. Huge fences guard the various >> localities but the garbage bins remain undesigned and overflowing. >> This is a strange anomaly. >> >> Thought this maybe a good starting point for sunday thinking :) >> >> warmly >> Jeebesh _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Mon May 11 15:44:32 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 03:14:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Happy Sunday :) Library and Garbage bins In-Reply-To: <341380d00905100736g24a99a9ctab781ddcefeec64f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <853442.98251.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Anupam   I put "strip" within quotes as I was not sure whether "strip" is the appropiate word for that art-form.   It was not meant to be an 'attack' on you or 'contradicting' you   Kshmendra --- On Sun, 5/10/09, anupam chakravartty wrote: From: anupam chakravartty Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Happy Sunday :) Library and Garbage bins To: "sarai list" Date: Sunday, May 10, 2009, 8:06 PM thanks kshmendra but why have u attached quotes to the word strip. i dont understand. pray tell. On 5/10/09, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > Anupam > Delightful 'strip'. Thanks > > Rakesh > Public libraries would serve an excellent purpose. The poor and homeless > could find temporary refuge in them, getting shielded from the cold and > protected from heat. > > Only problem in that might be along the lines of the news story "US library > bans 'offensive bodily odours' from entering!" > http://in.news.yahoo.com/139/20090415/959/tod-us-library-bans-offensive-bodily-odo.html > > Wonder how 'library going elite' (for elite they would be in comparison) > would react to the poor and homeless in the 'public space' of a public > library > > Kshmendra > > > > --- On *Sun, 5/10/09, anupam chakravartty * wrote: > > > From: anupam chakravartty > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Happy Sunday :) Library and Garbage bins > To: "sarai list" > Date: Sunday, May 10, 2009, 5:13 PM > > Here's a little library's story. > http://www.soundofdrowning.com/lib.html > > regards anupam > > > On 5/10/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > > > > Dear Jeebesh (and all) > > > > While the heat in this list could have been tackled by means of more > > personal chats and more respect of both sides' views from the other > > sides, here I wish to express my views on the first issue you have > > raised. > > > > Any issue, be it water, roads, health, education, or even a public > > library, can be addressed. However, there are umpteen points regarding > > as to why it is not an issue. And they are numerous in our system of > > democracy (or as in Gulaal they say, it's just autocracy in the name > > of democracy). > > > > The first issue here is about the way our democratic system works. It > > is a system which is half full and half empty, meaning that it is 50% > > democratic and 50% not, if one were to quote Ramachandra Guha from his > > book 'India After Gandhi'. And it certainly is. We do have a > system > > which has elections and the transition of power after elections is > > also smooth. However, that's it. Our system begins and ends with > > elections. After that, nobody cares. We never look at things beyond > > elections. Any criticism of a government takes place only with the > > point of view of elections. > > > > What this means is that only those issues which are important from the > > election point of view, would be addressed. But the question arises, > > as to then which issues are important, if they are there at all? Here, > > our media and the grassroots are totally at crossroads. The media > > feels the PM or the CM at the state level are more important issues > > than say water supply, health or education. On the other hand, the > > candidates realize that is not necessarily the case, and they > > concentrate on the kind of developmental works undertaken and some or > > the other sops being given. > > > > And what are these developmental works actually? The issues of > > livelihood. The issues of roti, kapda and makan. And if one may add to > > it, in a certain way they are related to bijli, sadak aur paani. These > > are the issues which are uppermost in the minds of the people. One > > must understand that with the kind of society we are, a caste and > > religion-biased society, where Brahmins wouldn't eat with Muslims or > > Dalits, where now even the OBC's live separately from them and where > > inter-caste marriages are even now abhorred, at least in rural areas, > > the kind of politicians who would emerge would also concentrate only > > on giving doles to their supporters or caste/religion members as cash > > or some kind of incentive. > > > > With the competition between people of different castes and religions > > for such govt. doles and rewards like jobs, rather than them fighting > > together for a common cause (long back this happened under Gandhi's > > movements), and with the kind of society we are (where people revel in > > having contacts with the powerful and the rich rather than following > > rules), all want a common minimum level of existence, from where > > education is excluded. > > > > Also, no political party has been imaginative enough to put health and > > education as basic issues in their campaigns and trying to corner the > > incumbent governments either during elections or during other times > > through mass based movements. Neither have non-political organizations > > played a successful role in this part during such times to ensure that > > such issues are addressed, which does not mean that they haven't > > tried; it simply means they haven't tried enough or the results are > > not enough. > > > > People in general also have little patience to understand the > > complexity of issues. That is why we have experts to understand them. > > But one must remember that things should also be made palatable to the > > electorate to back you. In this case, Manmohan Singh is a huge > > failure, precisely because he has never contested an election himself. > > And Advani may have an advantage here mainly because he has won a Lok > > Sabha election before this at least, so he could understand possibly > > how to make an issue and its solution palatable to the public. (This > > is a possibility, not necessarily the actuality). > > > > The second issue we have forgotten is in our society who is doing > > what. The poor don't have the power to actually undertake movements on > > their own and fight a battle which can yield results. I don't mean to > > say that the poor can't undertake movements. The poor in many states > > may have actually done so, but one must remember that in today's > > times, when our politicians are image-conscious, things which are not > > popular are not going to make much headway. Therefore, one must > > realize that unless such things are popular or in the mainstream > > media, it is very difficult to get the point across. > > > > Moreover, the poor are more concerned with their livelihoods, which is > > the most important issue for them. Things like library are non-issues > > from their point of view. > > > > The rich on the other hand do have the power, so also the middle > > class. The media is also on this side. However, we have tended to > > concentrate more on issues which are not going to help the poor at > > all. Forget that, we have not even concentrated on issues which can > > help the society at large. Even in the voting campaigns, people are > > being encouraged to vote. But the moot point remains this: if all the > > candidates are corrupt, what is the point of voting, even if for the > > least corrupt candidate? After all, corruption be it of Re. 1 or lakhs > > can and should not be tolerated. If terrorism is not tolerated, how > > come corruption is tolerated? > > > > Similarly, Hindutva seems also to be an issue going by some great > > Rediff articles and views expressed on them. Malls and removal of > > slums are issues, even though people don't try to understand at all > > the situational changes which can take place by having malls at > > certain places, or even the problems in slums and how they can be > > corrected without removing them. And of course, we have some other > > nonsense things to talk about. > > > > Conclusion: > > > > The library is a public good, and ultimately the library will benefit > > the public. The problem is that the rich don't want to fight for it as > > they think it's useless to involve themselves in such fights which are > > unprofitable (or non-money yielding). The poor don't fight for it as > > they have more important issues to look at. The media doesn't take it > > up as it's not a 'TRP-giving' news to be looked at, or it is > too > > serious. And our politicians being image-conscious, believe that > > these are not the things which will fetch them votes. > > > > So the library is a non-starter in our cities. > > > > And so, we don't have spaces in public to debate with on a personal > > level by and large. > > > > Regards > > > > Rakesh > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Mon May 11 15:55:46 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 15:55:46 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] No mention of emergency anywhere in schooling ? In-Reply-To: <61164a90905110105o44a9fd3bn5a73167c6011b5c8@mail.gmail.com> References: <61164a90905110105o44a9fd3bn5a73167c6011b5c8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Rajen jee (and all) It is certainly right that children are not learning of the Emergency. But here there are two issues which must be looked at before drawing conclusions. Firstly, there are many incidents which must be looked at in our textbooks, and not just the Emergency. The tragedy of the Partition has never been dealt with in our textbooks, from any point of view. It seems our govt. believes that just putting out numbers and mentioning certain incidents is enough of tribute paid to those dead. Our history textbooks should deal comprehensively with the Partition, the possible reasons as to why it started, the sociological reasons of why such grave violence took place, and what were the after effects of these. There are other events and policies to be looked at as well. We have never looked in our history as to why India chose to be a democracy, when it could also have become a dictatorship at that time. The reasons and rationale given in our history as to why it became a democratic country must be explained to students, and the importance of democracy in particular must also be explained, for only would then the students would be able to make sense of why the Emergency was wrong. Otherwise, irrespective of whether it was there in our syllabus or not, the Emergency would be just that, a day to give speeches about like the three national holidays have become, without us learning anything from the reasons as to why these days are celebrated. And not only this, we need to look at other events as well. For example, who can forget the 1984 Delhi pogrom where 3,000 Sikhs were butchered in a single day thanks to goons led by Congress leaders, with the leadership under Rajiv Gandhi doing nothing? Who can equally forget the inaction of Narsimha Rao and the culpability of Kalyan Singh in the Babri Masjid demolition on 6th December, 1992? Who can forget the riots and mayhem unleashed across India after that, particularly in Mumbai by goons of the Shiv Sena? And who can equally forget Godhra and the way it was politically used by some people to unleash terrible atrocities on the innocents of Gujarat, most of whom were Muslims? All these incidents must be taught and our citizens must be also taught the importance of values like fundamental rights, rights to minorities, and also the value systems on the basis of which our state is supposed to function, like democracy and secularism (which people today have now begun to abuse, thereby endangering the very foundations on the basis of which the Indian Republic was built upon). Equally, they must know such incidents which tried to weaken this base of India so that they can at least decide how to go about improving India in their own ways. Secondly, the RSS is as culpable of destroying India as the Congress, if not more. The RSS from the very beginning has had the conception of Hindu Rashtra, which is utter nonsense. The Muslims who stayed back in India can't be thrown into the sea, but if the RSS had its' way, they would have to live as worse than second class citizens(this coming from the mouth of Golwalkar, a chief of the RSS). Equally, the RSS has been responsible in acts which can only make human beings feel ashamed if they have ever been associated with this organizations(that is if they are actually human beings and not animals). The RSS first of all was indirectly involved in the Gandhi assassination case, and this came from the mouth of the judges who actually judged the case. Unfortunately, it couldn't be proved. But after his assassination, the RSS activists were distributing sweets for the same. Then, the RSS indulged in creating riots after refugees from East Pakistan(now Bangladesh) in 1950 started coming. After that, the RSS cadres combined with the Congress cadres in the 1969 riots, considered the mother of riots in Gujarat. Then of course, the RSS ideology penetrated into the police and the RAF, which is why since 1977, there was one major cycle of riot every year somewhere at some place, or some massacre, be it Aligarh, Moradabad, Meerut, or even Nellie. Of course, the Congress was hand-in-glove with the RSS, ensuring the Hindu vote would consolidate behind them. Then the RSS also supported to a certain extent the 1984 riots. In this very forum, a statement was put up regarding the views of Nanaji Deshmukh, a prominent RSS leader, regarding what should be the Sikh response to the pogrom (which is to suffer and keep quiet). And then who can forget their own role in the mother of all frenzies resulting in the Babri Masjid demolition. (Again the Congress started this and the RSS continued from there, through the BJP, the Rath Yatra, the VHP and the Bajrang Dal and Co.). And finally, what about 2002? Who said that revenge for Godhra was being taken (through rapes and mutilation of dead bodies)? The RSS has been also accused of misusing money given in the aftermath of the 2001 Gujarat earthquake to get weapons which were used during the 2002 post-Godhra violence. And you, dear Sir, seem to be living in some other era for actually stating that RSS has contributed greatly to the nation. Probably, when every day terror attacks take place in this nation, people would realize that the RSS doesn't have the balls to protect the nation either through the BJP, the VHP or the Bajrang Dal. And by then it would be too late. If we have to end terror attacks, we have to finish those who keep on spreading terror for their own benefit, be it the fundamentalists on the Muslim side (read the Lashkar, the Jaish and their co. in India), or the fundamentalists on the Hindu side (be it the RSS and the Sangh Parivar or the Shiv Sena). And most importantly, we should follow laws, not by coercion, but by choice after reasoning them out. Only then, does our democracy have some meaning. And only then would teaching Emergency and other events would have some meaning. Regards Rakesh From c.anupam at gmail.com Mon May 11 16:19:45 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 16:19:45 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Happy Sunday :) Library and Garbage bins In-Reply-To: <853442.98251.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <341380d00905100736g24a99a9ctab781ddcefeec64f@mail.gmail.com> <853442.98251.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <341380d00905110349r9511b39i146b97445c2f52ae@mail.gmail.com> thanks for clarifying kshmendra. may god bless you. the idea of a temple-library is unique/ anupam On 5/11/09, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > Dear Anupam > > I put "strip" within quotes as I was not sure whether "strip" is the > appropiate word for that art-form. > > It was not meant to be an 'attack' on you or 'contradicting' you > > Kshmendra > > --- On *Sun, 5/10/09, anupam chakravartty * wrote: > > > From: anupam chakravartty > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Happy Sunday :) Library and Garbage bins > To: "sarai list" > Date: Sunday, May 10, 2009, 8:06 PM > > thanks kshmendra but why have u attached quotes to the word strip. i dont > understand. pray tell. > > On 5/10/09, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > > > Anupam > > Delightful 'strip'. Thanks > > > > Rakesh > > Public libraries would serve an excellent purpose. The poor and homeless > > could find temporary refuge in them, getting shielded from the cold and > > protected from heat. > > > > Only problem in that might be along the lines of the news story "US > library > > bans 'offensive bodily odours' from entering!" > >http://in.news.yahoo.com/139/20090415/959/tod-us-library-bans-offensive-bodily-odo.html > > > > Wonder how 'library going elite' (for elite they would be in > comparison) > > would react to the poor and homeless in the 'public space' of a > public > > library > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > > > --- On *Sun, 5/10/09, anupam chakravartty * > wrote: > > > > > > From: anupam chakravartty > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Happy Sunday :) Library and Garbage bins > > To: "sarai list" > > Date: Sunday, May 10, 2009, 5:13 PM > > > > Here's a little library's story. > > http://www.soundofdrowning.com/lib.html > > > > regards anupam > > > > > > On 5/10/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > > > > > > Dear Jeebesh (and all) > > > > > > While the heat in this list could have been tackled by means of more > > > personal chats and more respect of both sides' views from the > other > > > sides, here I wish to express my views on the first issue you have > > > raised. > > > > > > Any issue, be it water, roads, health, education, or even a public > > > library, can be addressed. However, there are umpteen points > regarding > > > as to why it is not an issue. And they are numerous in our system of > > > democracy (or as in Gulaal they say, it's just autocracy in the > name > > > of democracy). > > > > > > The first issue here is about the way our democratic system works. It > > > is a system which is half full and half empty, meaning that it is 50% > > > democratic and 50% not, if one were to quote Ramachandra Guha from > his > > > book 'India After Gandhi'. And it certainly is. We do have a > > system > > > which has elections and the transition of power after elections is > > > also smooth. However, that's it. Our system begins and ends with > > > elections. After that, nobody cares. We never look at things beyond > > > elections. Any criticism of a government takes place only with the > > > point of view of elections. > > > > > > What this means is that only those issues which are important from > the > > > election point of view, would be addressed. But the question arises, > > > as to then which issues are important, if they are there at all? > Here, > > > our media and the grassroots are totally at crossroads. The media > > > feels the PM or the CM at the state level are more important issues > > > than say water supply, health or education. On the other hand, the > > > candidates realize that is not necessarily the case, and they > > > concentrate on the kind of developmental works undertaken and some or > > > the other sops being given. > > > > > > And what are these developmental works actually? The issues of > > > livelihood. The issues of roti, kapda and makan. And if one may add > to > > > it, in a certain way they are related to bijli, sadak aur paani. > These > > > are the issues which are uppermost in the minds of the people. One > > > must understand that with the kind of society we are, a caste and > > > religion-biased society, where Brahmins wouldn't eat with Muslims > or > > > Dalits, where now even the OBC's live separately from them and > where > > > inter-caste marriages are even now abhorred, at least in rural areas, > > > the kind of politicians who would emerge would also concentrate only > > > on giving doles to their supporters or caste/religion members as cash > > > or some kind of incentive. > > > > > > With the competition between people of different castes and religions > > > for such govt. doles and rewards like jobs, rather than them fighting > > > together for a common cause (long back this happened under > Gandhi's > > > movements), and with the kind of society we are (where people revel > in > > > having contacts with the powerful and the rich rather than following > > > rules), all want a common minimum level of existence, from where > > > education is excluded. > > > > > > Also, no political party has been imaginative enough to put health > and > > > education as basic issues in their campaigns and trying to corner the > > > incumbent governments either during elections or during other times > > > through mass based movements. Neither have non-political > organizations > > > played a successful role in this part during such times to ensure > that > > > such issues are addressed, which does not mean that they haven't > > > tried; it simply means they haven't tried enough or the results > are > > > not enough. > > > > > > People in general also have little patience to understand the > > > complexity of issues. That is why we have experts to understand them. > > > But one must remember that things should also be made palatable to > the > > > electorate to back you. In this case, Manmohan Singh is a huge > > > failure, precisely because he has never contested an election > himself. > > > And Advani may have an advantage here mainly because he has won a Lok > > > Sabha election before this at least, so he could understand possibly > > > how to make an issue and its solution palatable to the public. (This > > > is a possibility, not necessarily the actuality). > > > > > > The second issue we have forgotten is in our society who is doing > > > what. The poor don't have the power to actually undertake > movements on > > > their own and fight a battle which can yield results. I don't > mean to > > > say that the poor can't undertake movements. The poor in many > states > > > may have actually done so, but one must remember that in today's > > > times, when our politicians are image-conscious, things which are not > > > popular are not going to make much headway. Therefore, one must > > > realize that unless such things are popular or in the mainstream > > > media, it is very difficult to get the point across. > > > > > > Moreover, the poor are more concerned with their livelihoods, which > is > > > the most important issue for them. Things like library are non-issues > > > from their point of view. > > > > > > The rich on the other hand do have the power, so also the middle > > > class. The media is also on this side. However, we have tended to > > > concentrate more on issues which are not going to help the poor at > > > all. Forget that, we have not even concentrated on issues which can > > > help the society at large. Even in the voting campaigns, people are > > > being encouraged to vote. But the moot point remains this: if all the > > > candidates are corrupt, what is the point of voting, even if for the > > > least corrupt candidate? After all, corruption be it of Re. 1 or > lakhs > > > can and should not be tolerated. If terrorism is not tolerated, how > > > come corruption is tolerated? > > > > > > Similarly, Hindutva seems also to be an issue going by some great > > > Rediff articles and views expressed on them. Malls and removal of > > > slums are issues, even though people don't try to understand at > all > > > the situational changes which can take place by having malls at > > > certain places, or even the problems in slums and how they can be > > > corrected without removing them. And of course, we have some other > > > nonsense things to talk about. > > > > > > Conclusion: > > > > > > The library is a public good, and ultimately the library will benefit > > > the public. The problem is that the rich don't want to fight for > it as > > > they think it's useless to involve themselves in such fights > which are > > > unprofitable (or non-money yielding). The poor don't fight for it > as > > > they have more important issues to look at. The media doesn't > take it > > > up as it's not a 'TRP-giving' news to be looked at, or it > is > > too > > > serious. And our politicians being image-conscious, believe that > > > these are not the things which will fetch them votes. > > > > > > So the library is a non-starter in our cities. > > > > > > And so, we don't have spaces in public to debate with on a > personal > > > level by and large. > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > Rakesh > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in > > the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Mon May 11 17:26:20 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 04:56:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] WSJ on the Indian media - "Want Press Coverage? Give Me Some Money" In-Reply-To: <341380d00905100733m6a0a94a5u3fefc3d83da1486a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <925544.69431.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Anupam   I was saddened by your comment "i think i know your precise intention in attacking whatever i have been writing and trying to cite a contradiction,". Just stating it, will not argue over it. You are entitled to your subjective presumptions.   It would be irrational and unreasonable for Newspaper Corporates that function on a 'For-Profit' basis to receive 'subsidized Newsprint' from the 'State'.    Newsprint is freely available in the market. Domestic production (reportedly) caters to roughly 50% of the demand. Imports are on unrestricted OGL. As happens with most other products where there is split supply from Domestics and Imports meeting the demand, the Prices would vary in the Market at different times but will try to maintain equivalence between Domestics and Imports.   Yes this would mean that Newspapers have to pro-actively manage both costs and revenues since Newsprint accounts for (reportedly) 50% of the costs. But that is an essential part of any 'For-Profit Business'.   Your information about domestic producers of Newsprint (essential suppliers) are all under control of GOI does not appear to be correct. Even if it were, nothing stops the user from buying from elsewhere (Imports). But if the expectation is one one of "State subsidized supply" that is a ridiculous expectation from any 'For-Profit Newspaper'    You say that "todays news paper are mostly earning their revenue from the state corporations" That could well be an element of the Revenue Model. But, is there anything of significance that suggests that the "State" is through that exercising any undue control on the Newspapers (at least on the 'major' newspapers)?   On the contrary, there has been much reporting of how some Newspapers have succumbed to pressures from Non-Govt enterprises who provide Ad-Revenue and have as per demand censored out or promoted news. TOI (as an example) having gained notoriety just some time back.   In fact, the "State" seems to have been quite supportive in recent times towards the financial constraints faced by Newspapers.   In Feb 2009 'newsprint, glazed newsprint and light weight newsprint used for printing magazines' was exempted from customs duty. It was in any case low at 3% for Newsprint and 5% for 'magazine Newsprint'   It has been reported that simultaneously 'ad rates paid by various government agencies, through the department of advertising and visual publicity' (DAVP) were raised by 30%.   On the issue of who produces Newsprint in India, this extract from an Industry source (perhaps 2005 figures) might be of interest since it contradicts the idea that the "State" is the primary source:   """"" Manufacturing capacity for the Indian newsprint industry is spread across six mills (with a cumulative) production capacity 418,000 tonnes). In the public sector and around 30 mills (with an aggregate capacity of 315,000 tonnes) in the private sector"""""'   Honestly, I have failed to understand on what basis you made the statement "free press is marginalised by the state and its functionaries"   Kshmendra   --- On Sun, 5/10/09, anupam chakravartty wrote: From: anupam chakravartty Subject: Re: [Reader-list] WSJ on the Indian media - "Want Press Coverage? Give Me Some Money" To: "sarai list" Date: Sunday, May 10, 2009, 8:03 PM Dear Kshmendra, It is only Times of india and Hindu which can afford to import newsprint for all the editions of newspaper. there are three factories which essentially supply newsprint, Nepanagar, Jagiroad, and im not sure about the third. all these newsprint industries are under GoI and the production is accordingly controlled. However, i maintain that there are other forms of media for example internet where media can remain independent and fair. but due to the limited reach this medium has not proved to be success especially in the rural areas. you are not wrongly pointing out anything but i think i know your precise intention in attacking whatever i have been writing and trying to cite a contradiction, which surprisingly is a learning for me as well. so you are not wrong in any case. the onus remains on the newspaper and kind of profits it can make to keep itself out of the state control. moreover, with the news of recession and other such things, todays news paper are mostly earning their revenue from the state corporations thanks anupam On 5/10/09, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > Dear Anupam > > You wrote "free press is marginalised by the state and its functionaries.", > seemingly linking it up with "newspapers essentially buy newsprint from > state." > > Isnt Newsprint in India freely available, freely importable? Where does the > "State" come in other than in specifying Import Duties (which are not > exploitative) and local taxation? > > Yes there was a time when there was next to none Newsprint production in > India and it's Import was controlled by the "State Trading Corpn." > (STC), the "State" thereby exercising pressures through rationed allocations > of Newsprint. > > That is not the situation now. Is it? > > If I am not mistaken, Newsprint continues to be made available by the > "State" at SUBSIDISED rates for specific purposes and in limited quantities > allocated to specific users. But it is the "User's" choice to source such > Newsprint from the "State". It is not forced upon anyone. > > There is no compulsion on Newspapers to buy Newsprint from the "State". > > Please correct me if my understanding(s) are wrong because I found your > statement strange and (to the extent of the knowledge I have) conveying an > incorrect impression of there being State Control or State Pressure on > Newspapers through control on Newsprint. > > Kshmendra > > > --- On *Fri, 5/8/09, anupam chakravartty * wrote: > > > From: anupam chakravartty > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] WSJ on the Indian media - "Want Press Coverage? > Give Me Some Money" > To: "sarai list" > Date: Friday, May 8, 2009, 12:30 PM > > certain other truths about newspapers: > > newspapers essentially buy newsprint from state. > > one newspaper costs Rs 15, while its sold for Rs 3-4 to the reader. > > free press is marginalised by the state and its functionaries. > > a reporter essentially fears a rejoinder. > > > > > On 5/8/09, sukanya ghosh wrote: > > > > Sad but true. It's no surprise to learn of coverage > 'bartering' for > > politicians. Seems to me a logical enough step considering that most > > other news coverage can consist of bought spaces. The entertainment > > pages (which unfortunately bleed their way insidiously into most other > > pages) are established norms for this. It seems to me that a 'free > > press' in our country exists in a very marginal way. Someone I met > once > > who worked for a leading English language daily told me very pompously > > that 'they' (read 'educated journalist'), had nothing to > do with and > > were not to be associated with what the rest of the paper was saying. > > Their reach consisted of being confined to the editorial pages of which > > they were supremely proud of. Never mind that the paper has various > > other pages of 'news', many supplements and an incredibly bad > Sunday > > magazine. Are we to be thankful that we have a page of actual reading > > material (some of it occasionally good) and assume the rest is all > > trash? Another leading daily in another city (also English) has in place > > various marketing bundles which allow you to 'purchase' news > coverage. > > And these are not covert or shadowy backroom deals - it's all very > out > > there for the right buyers. We see newspapers, news channels owned by > > particular organisations who seem to spend a lot of their time exhorting > > the virtues of events / news pertaining to those organisations. And my > > pet grouse, all this while the arts sections keep shrinking in size day > > by day. Where trying to get coverage for an event / exhibition / book > > (no matter how significant) can lead to nail biting finish, wondering if > > the reporter (who has been given detailed press releases) will at least > > get the name right. > > > > The irony being of course that there is no dearth of news of the > > sensational variety if one were to attempt to report just facts in the > > case of Indian politics. But that would mean effort and interest. And > > that surely is lacking in our press coverages. > > > > > > > > > > Rana Dasgupta wrote: > > > Want Press Coverage? Give Me Some Money > > > > > > By PAUL BECKETT > > > > > > Ajay Goyal is a serious, independent candidate contesting for a Lok > > > Sabha seat in Chandigarh. > > > Never heard of him? Neither, probably, have a lot of people in > > > Chandigarh because when it came to getting press coverage for his > > > campaign he was faced with a simple message: If you want press, you > have > > > to pay. > > > > > > So far, he says, he's been approached by about 10 people – some > brokers > > > and public relations managers acting on behalf of newspaper owners, > some > > > reporters and editors – with the message that he'll only get > written > > > about in the news pages for a fee. We're not talking advertising; > we're > > > talking news. > > > > > > One broker offered three weeks of coverage in four newspapers for 10 > > > lakh rupees ($20,000). A reporter and a photographer from a > Chandigarh > > > newspaper told him that for 1.5 lakh rupees ($3,000) for them and a > > > further 3 lakh rupees ($6,000) for other reporters, they could > guarantee > > > coverage in up to five newspapers for two weeks. > > > > > > "We would do good coverage for you," he says they told him. > All of those > > > who approached him either were from national Hindi language papers or > > > regional papers, Mr. Goyal says. > > > > > > “You want a front page photo for free? This is something people pay > for.” > > > > > > In one case, he went along to see what would happen: a press release > he > > > submitted full of falsehoods – claiming he had campaigned in places > he > > > had never been, for instance – ran verbatim. One thing he has never > seen > > > on his real campaign: a reporter there to cover the story. > > > > > > "It's disappointing," Mr. Goyal says. "What good > is literacy and > > > education if people have no access to real news, investigation, > > > skepticism or a questioning reporter." > > > > > > At the nexus of corruption in India, the nation's newspapers > usually > > > play either vigilante cop exposing wrongdoing in the public interest > (on > > > a good day, at a few publications) or spineless patsy killing stories > on > > > the orders of powerful advertisers. Many papers also engage in > practices > > > that cross the ethical line between advertising and editorial in a > way > > > that is opaque, if not downright obscure, to readers. > > > > > > But it is of another order of magnitude to see reporters, editors and > > > newspaper owners holding the democratic process to ransom. A free (in > > > every sense) press is an integral part of a vibrant democracy. A > corrupt > > > press is both symptom and perpetrator of a rotten democracy. > > > > > > "I'm not saying all media is biased but there is a growing > sense in > > > people's minds that a lot of the media is biased," says Anil > Bairwal, > > > national coordinator of National Election Watch. "Some do it in > a > > > sublime manner and some do it openly." > > > > > > So why are we surprised when the voter turnout is so low, despite the > > > much-touted surge of political awareness among the young and > > > post-Mumbai? It's all part and parcel of the public disgust with > the > > > political system and the pillars of the Establishment that support > that > > > system as well. For every newly-minted reform-minded, politically > aware > > > voter, there are probably hundreds of jaded citizens who just decide > the > > > heck with it. > > > > > > How widespread is the practice of pay per say? > > > > > > The best-known English-language dailies typically don't do it so > > > blatantly, candidates and others involved in the elections say. > Rather, > > > those papers are more likely to hue closely to one major party or the > > > other, making it tough for candidates who don't fit the > papers' view of > > > the world to be heard. But in the Hindi, Urdu and Gujarati media, to > > > name a few, the practice is widespread, candidates say. > > > > > > N. Gopalaswami, retired Chief Election Commissioner, says in an > > > interview, "This is not something that can be ignored. It is not > just a > > > few apparent cases, it is much more than that." > > > > > > He has heard of newspapers proferring a rate card - one price for > > > positive coverage, another for not negative coverage. The commission > > > heard complaints in both 2007 and 2008 about candidates being charged > > > for coverage. Among them, the national Communist parties who > don't have > > > the deep coffers to spend on campaigns. > > > > > > In Mumbai, a city appropriately geared to commerce, politicians are > > > faced with multiple payment options. Consider these phrases from > > > newspaper editors and brokers, which I culled from campaigners: > > > > > > "You want a front page photo for free? This is something people > pay for." > > > > > > "If you want a picture in there or if you want a story, we have > to be > > paid." > > > > > > "We're going to publish the interview, but you need to buy > 5,000 copies > > > of our paper." > > > > > > "1.2 lakhs ($2,400) for the next two weeks and I will take care > of all > > > that coverage." > > > > > > —Paul Beckett is the WSJ's bureau chief in New Delhi > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > > sukanya ghosh / +91 9831306925 > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Mon May 11 17:32:27 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 05:02:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Happy Sunday :) Library and Garbage bins In-Reply-To: <341380d00905110349r9511b39i146b97445c2f52ae@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <748635.42842.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Anupam   Thanks.   Your blessings would have been more than enough since I have no belief invested in any such entity called God (or by whichever other name)   Take care   Kshmendra --- On Mon, 5/11/09, anupam chakravartty wrote: From: anupam chakravartty Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Happy Sunday :) Library and Garbage bins To: "sarai list" Date: Monday, May 11, 2009, 4:19 PM thanks for clarifying kshmendra. may god bless you. the idea of a temple-library is unique/ anupam On 5/11/09, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > Dear Anupam > > I put "strip" within quotes as I was not sure whether "strip" is the > appropiate word for that art-form. > > It was not meant to be an 'attack' on you or 'contradicting' you > > Kshmendra > > --- On *Sun, 5/10/09, anupam chakravartty * wrote: > > > From: anupam chakravartty > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Happy Sunday :) Library and Garbage bins > To: "sarai list" > Date: Sunday, May 10, 2009, 8:06 PM > > thanks kshmendra but why have u attached quotes to the word strip. i dont > understand. pray tell. > > On 5/10/09, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > > > Anupam > > Delightful 'strip'. Thanks > > > > Rakesh > > Public libraries would serve an excellent purpose. The poor and homeless > > could find temporary refuge in them, getting shielded from the cold and > > protected from heat. > > > > Only problem in that might be along the lines of the news story "US > library > > bans 'offensive bodily odours' from entering!" > >http://in.news.yahoo.com/139/20090415/959/tod-us-library-bans-offensive-bodily-odo.html > > > > Wonder how 'library going elite' (for elite they would be in > comparison) > > would react to the poor and homeless in the 'public space' of a > public > > library > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > > > --- On *Sun, 5/10/09, anupam chakravartty * > wrote: > > > > > > From: anupam chakravartty > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Happy Sunday :) Library and Garbage bins > > To: "sarai list" > > Date: Sunday, May 10, 2009, 5:13 PM > > > > Here's a little library's story. > > http://www.soundofdrowning.com/lib.html > > > > regards anupam > > > > > > On 5/10/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > > > > > > Dear Jeebesh (and all) > > > > > > While the heat in this list could have been tackled by means of more > > > personal chats and more respect of both sides' views from the > other > > > sides, here I wish to express my views on the first issue you have > > > raised. > > > > > > Any issue, be it water, roads, health, education, or even a public > > > library, can be addressed. However, there are umpteen points > regarding > > > as to why it is not an issue. And they are numerous in our system of > > > democracy (or as in Gulaal they say, it's just autocracy in the > name > > > of democracy). > > > > > > The first issue here is about the way our democratic system works. It > > > is a system which is half full and half empty, meaning that it is 50% > > > democratic and 50% not, if one were to quote Ramachandra Guha from > his > > > book 'India After Gandhi'. And it certainly is. We do have a > > system > > > which has elections and the transition of power after elections is > > > also smooth. However, that's it. Our system begins and ends with > > > elections. After that, nobody cares. We never look at things beyond > > > elections. Any criticism of a government takes place only with the > > > point of view of elections. > > > > > > What this means is that only those issues which are important from > the > > > election point of view, would be addressed. But the question arises, > > > as to then which issues are important, if they are there at all? > Here, > > > our media and the grassroots are totally at crossroads. The media > > > feels the PM or the CM at the state level are more important issues > > > than say water supply, health or education. On the other hand, the > > > candidates realize that is not necessarily the case, and they > > > concentrate on the kind of developmental works undertaken and some or > > > the other sops being given. > > > > > > And what are these developmental works actually? The issues of > > > livelihood. The issues of roti, kapda and makan. And if one may add > to > > > it, in a certain way they are related to bijli, sadak aur paani. > These > > > are the issues which are uppermost in the minds of the people. One > > > must understand that with the kind of society we are, a caste and > > > religion-biased society, where Brahmins wouldn't eat with Muslims > or > > > Dalits, where now even the OBC's live separately from them and > where > > > inter-caste marriages are even now abhorred, at least in rural areas, > > > the kind of politicians who would emerge would also concentrate only > > > on giving doles to their supporters or caste/religion members as cash > > > or some kind of incentive. > > > > > > With the competition between people of different castes and religions > > > for such govt. doles and rewards like jobs, rather than them fighting > > > together for a common cause (long back this happened under > Gandhi's > > > movements), and with the kind of society we are (where people revel > in > > > having contacts with the powerful and the rich rather than following > > > rules), all want a common minimum level of existence, from where > > > education is excluded. > > > > > > Also, no political party has been imaginative enough to put health > and > > > education as basic issues in their campaigns and trying to corner the > > > incumbent governments either during elections or during other times > > > through mass based movements. Neither have non-political > organizations > > > played a successful role in this part during such times to ensure > that > > > such issues are addressed, which does not mean that they haven't > > > tried; it simply means they haven't tried enough or the results > are > > > not enough. > > > > > > People in general also have little patience to understand the > > > complexity of issues. That is why we have experts to understand them. > > > But one must remember that things should also be made palatable to > the > > > electorate to back you. In this case, Manmohan Singh is a huge > > > failure, precisely because he has never contested an election > himself. > > > And Advani may have an advantage here mainly because he has won a Lok > > > Sabha election before this at least, so he could understand possibly > > > how to make an issue and its solution palatable to the public. (This > > > is a possibility, not necessarily the actuality). > > > > > > The second issue we have forgotten is in our society who is doing > > > what. The poor don't have the power to actually undertake > movements on > > > their own and fight a battle which can yield results. I don't > mean to > > > say that the poor can't undertake movements. The poor in many > states > > > may have actually done so, but one must remember that in today's > > > times, when our politicians are image-conscious, things which are not > > > popular are not going to make much headway. Therefore, one must > > > realize that unless such things are popular or in the mainstream > > > media, it is very difficult to get the point across. > > > > > > Moreover, the poor are more concerned with their livelihoods, which > is > > > the most important issue for them. Things like library are non-issues > > > from their point of view. > > > > > > The rich on the other hand do have the power, so also the middle > > > class. The media is also on this side. However, we have tended to > > > concentrate more on issues which are not going to help the poor at > > > all. Forget that, we have not even concentrated on issues which can > > > help the society at large. Even in the voting campaigns, people are > > > being encouraged to vote. But the moot point remains this: if all the > > > candidates are corrupt, what is the point of voting, even if for the > > > least corrupt candidate? After all, corruption be it of Re. 1 or > lakhs > > > can and should not be tolerated. If terrorism is not tolerated, how > > > come corruption is tolerated? > > > > > > Similarly, Hindutva seems also to be an issue going by some great > > > Rediff articles and views expressed on them. Malls and removal of > > > slums are issues, even though people don't try to understand at > all > > > the situational changes which can take place by having malls at > > > certain places, or even the problems in slums and how they can be > > > corrected without removing them. And of course, we have some other > > > nonsense things to talk about. > > > > > > Conclusion: > > > > > > The library is a public good, and ultimately the library will benefit > > > the public. The problem is that the rich don't want to fight for > it as > > > they think it's useless to involve themselves in such fights > which are > > > unprofitable (or non-money yielding). The poor don't fight for it > as > > > they have more important issues to look at. The media doesn't > take it > > > up as it's not a 'TRP-giving' news to be looked at, or it > is > > too > > > serious. And our politicians being image-conscious, believe that > > > these are not the things which will fetch them votes. > > > > > > So the library is a non-starter in our cities. > > > > > > And so, we don't have spaces in public to debate with on a > personal > > > level by and large. > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > Rakesh > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in > > the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From c.anupam at gmail.com Mon May 11 17:37:47 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 17:37:47 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] WSJ on the Indian media - "Want Press Coverage? Give Me Some Money" In-Reply-To: <925544.69431.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <341380d00905100733m6a0a94a5u3fefc3d83da1486a@mail.gmail.com> <925544.69431.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <341380d00905110507xc7b5c6y82e4a4e7aad80a8e@mail.gmail.com> Dear Kshmendra, The reason why Times and many other newspapers are chucking people from their offices because of the high price of the newsprint, its not because the newspapers are not getting ads. the price of the newsprint went up by 60% in the quarter. http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-2957529,prtpage-1.cms -anupam On 5/11/09, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > Dear Anupam > > I was saddened by your comment "i think i know your precise intention in > attacking whatever i have been writing and trying to cite a contradiction,". > Just stating it, will not argue over it. You are entitled to your subjective > presumptions. > > It would be irrational and unreasonable for Newspaper Corporates that > function on a 'For-Profit' basis to receive 'subsidized Newsprint' from the > 'State'. > > Newsprint is freely available in the market. Domestic production > (reportedly) caters to roughly 50% of the demand. Imports are on > unrestricted OGL. As happens with most other products where there is split > supply from Domestics and Imports meeting the demand, the Prices would vary > in the Market at different times but will try to maintain equivalence > between Domestics and Imports. > > Yes this would mean that Newspapers have to pro-actively manage both costs > and revenues since Newsprint accounts for (reportedly) 50% of the costs. But > that is an essential part of any 'For-Profit Business'. > > Your information about domestic producers of Newsprint (essential > suppliers) are all under control of GOI does not appear to be correct. Even > if it were, nothing stops the user from buying from elsewhere (Imports). But > if the expectation is one one of "State subsidized supply" that is a > ridiculous expectation from any 'For-Profit Newspaper' > > You say that "todays news paper are mostly earning their revenue from the > state corporations" That could well be an element of the Revenue Model. But, > is there anything of significance that suggests that the "State" is through > that exercising any undue control on the Newspapers (at least on the 'major' > newspapers)? > > On the contrary, there has been much reporting of how some Newspapers have > succumbed to pressures from Non-Govt enterprises who provide Ad-Revenue and > have as per demand censored out or promoted news. TOI (as an example) having > gained notoriety just some time back. > > In fact, the "State" seems to have been quite supportive in recent > times towards the financial constraints faced by Newspapers. > > In Feb 2009 'newsprint, glazed newsprint and light weight newsprint used > for printing magazines' was exempted from customs duty. It was in any case > low at 3% for Newsprint and 5% for 'magazine Newsprint' > > It has been reported that simultaneously 'ad rates paid by various > government agencies, through the department of advertising and visual > publicity' (DAVP) were raised by 30%. > > On the issue of who produces Newsprint in India, this extract from an > Industry source (perhaps 2005 figures) might be of interest since it > contradicts the idea that the "State" is the primary source: > > """"" Manufacturing capacity for the Indian newsprint industry is spread > across six mills (with a cumulative) production capacity 418,000 tonnes). In > the public sector and around 30 mills (with an aggregate capacity of 315,000 > tonnes) in the private sector"""""' > > Honestly, I have failed to understand on what basis you made the statement > "free press is marginalised by the state and its functionaries" > > Kshmendra > > > --- On *Sun, 5/10/09, anupam chakravartty * wrote: > > > From: anupam chakravartty > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] WSJ on the Indian media - "Want Press Coverage? > Give Me Some Money" > To: "sarai list" > Date: Sunday, May 10, 2009, 8:03 PM > > Dear Kshmendra, > > It is only Times of india and Hindu which can afford to import newsprint for > all the editions of newspaper. there are three factories which essentially > supply newsprint, Nepanagar, Jagiroad, and im not sure about the third. all > these newsprint industries are under GoI and the production is accordingly > controlled. > However, i maintain that there are other forms of media for example internet > where media can remain independent and fair. but due to the limited reach > this medium has not proved to be success especially in the rural areas. > > you are not wrongly pointing out anything but i think i know your precise > intention in attacking whatever i have been writing and trying to cite a > contradiction, which surprisingly is a learning for me as well. so you are > not wrong in any case. the onus remains on the newspaper and kind of profits > it can make to keep itself out of the state control. moreover, with the news > of recession and other such things, todays news paper are mostly earning > their revenue from the state corporations > > thanks anupam > > > On 5/10/09, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > > > Dear Anupam > > > > You wrote "free press is marginalised by the state and its > functionaries.", > > seemingly linking it up with "newspapers essentially buy newsprint > from > > state." > > > > Isnt Newsprint in India freely available, freely importable? Where does > the > > "State" come in other than in specifying Import Duties (which > are not > > exploitative) and local taxation? > > > > Yes there was a time when there was next to none Newsprint production in > > India and it's Import was controlled by the "State Trading > Corpn." > > (STC), the "State" thereby exercising pressures through rationed > allocations > > of Newsprint. > > > > That is not the situation now. Is it? > > > > If I am not mistaken, Newsprint continues to be made available by the > > "State" at SUBSIDISED rates for specific purposes and in limited > quantities > > allocated to specific users. But it is the "User's" choice > to source such > > Newsprint from the "State". It is not forced upon anyone. > > > > There is no compulsion on Newspapers to buy Newsprint from the > "State". > > > > Please correct me if my understanding(s) are wrong because I found your > > statement strange and (to the extent of the knowledge I have) conveying an > > incorrect impression of there being State Control or State Pressure on > > Newspapers through control on Newsprint. > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > --- On *Fri, 5/8/09, anupam chakravartty * > wrote: > > > > > > From: anupam chakravartty > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] WSJ on the Indian media - "Want Press > Coverage? > > Give Me Some Money" > > To: "sarai list" > > Date: Friday, May 8, 2009, 12:30 PM > > > > certain other truths about newspapers: > > > > newspapers essentially buy newsprint from state. > > > > one newspaper costs Rs 15, while its sold for Rs 3-4 to the reader. > > > > free press is marginalised by the state and its functionaries. > > > > a reporter essentially fears a rejoinder. > > > > > > > > > > On 5/8/09, sukanya ghosh wrote: > > > > > > Sad but true. It's no surprise to learn of coverage > > 'bartering' for > > > politicians. Seems to me a logical enough step considering that most > > > other news coverage can consist of bought spaces. The entertainment > > > pages (which unfortunately bleed their way insidiously into most > other > > > pages) are established norms for this. It seems to me that a > 'free > > > press' in our country exists in a very marginal way. Someone I > met > > once > > > who worked for a leading English language daily told me very > pompously > > > that 'they' (read 'educated journalist'), had nothing > to > > do with and > > > were not to be associated with what the rest of the paper was saying. > > > Their reach consisted of being confined to the editorial pages of > which > > > they were supremely proud of. Never mind that the paper has various > > > other pages of 'news', many supplements and an incredibly bad > > Sunday > > > magazine. Are we to be thankful that we have a page of actual reading > > > material (some of it occasionally good) and assume the rest is all > > > trash? Another leading daily in another city (also English) has in > place > > > various marketing bundles which allow you to 'purchase' news > > coverage. > > > And these are not covert or shadowy backroom deals - it's all > very > > out > > > there for the right buyers. We see newspapers, news channels owned by > > > particular organisations who seem to spend a lot of their time > exhorting > > > the virtues of events / news pertaining to those organisations. And > my > > > pet grouse, all this while the arts sections keep shrinking in size > day > > > by day. Where trying to get coverage for an event / exhibition / book > > > (no matter how significant) can lead to nail biting finish, wondering > if > > > the reporter (who has been given detailed press releases) will at > least > > > get the name right. > > > > > > The irony being of course that there is no dearth of news of the > > > sensational variety if one were to attempt to report just facts in > the > > > case of Indian politics. But that would mean effort and interest. And > > > that surely is lacking in our press coverages. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rana Dasgupta wrote: > > > > Want Press Coverage? Give Me Some Money > > > > > > > > By PAUL BECKETT > > > > > > > > Ajay Goyal is a serious, independent candidate contesting for a > Lok > > > > Sabha seat in Chandigarh. > > > > Never heard of him? Neither, probably, have a lot of people in > > > > Chandigarh because when it came to getting press coverage for > his > > > > campaign he was faced with a simple message: If you want press, > you > > have > > > > to pay. > > > > > > > > So far, he says, he's been approached by about 10 people – > some > > brokers > > > > and public relations managers acting on behalf of newspaper > owners, > > some > > > > reporters and editors – with the message that he'll only > get > > written > > > > about in the news pages for a fee. We're not talking > advertising; > > we're > > > > talking news. > > > > > > > > One broker offered three weeks of coverage in four newspapers > for 10 > > > > lakh rupees ($20,000). A reporter and a photographer from a > > Chandigarh > > > > newspaper told him that for 1.5 lakh rupees ($3,000) for them > and a > > > > further 3 lakh rupees ($6,000) for other reporters, they could > > guarantee > > > > coverage in up to five newspapers for two weeks. > > > > > > > > "We would do good coverage for you," he says they told > him. > > All of those > > > > who approached him either were from national Hindi language > papers or > > > > regional papers, Mr. Goyal says. > > > > > > > > “You want a front page photo for free? This is something > people pay > > for.” > > > > > > > > In one case, he went along to see what would happen: a press > release > > he > > > > submitted full of falsehoods – claiming he had campaigned in > places > > he > > > > had never been, for instance – ran verbatim. One thing he has > never > > seen > > > > on his real campaign: a reporter there to cover the story. > > > > > > > > "It's disappointing," Mr. Goyal says. "What > good > > is literacy and > > > > education if people have no access to real news, investigation, > > > > skepticism or a questioning reporter." > > > > > > > > At the nexus of corruption in India, the nation's newspapers > > usually > > > > play either vigilante cop exposing wrongdoing in the public > interest > > (on > > > > a good day, at a few publications) or spineless patsy killing > stories > > on > > > > the orders of powerful advertisers. Many papers also engage in > > practices > > > > that cross the ethical line between advertising and editorial in > a > > way > > > > that is opaque, if not downright obscure, to readers. > > > > > > > > But it is of another order of magnitude to see reporters, > editors and > > > > newspaper owners holding the democratic process to ransom. A > free (in > > > > every sense) press is an integral part of a vibrant democracy. A > > corrupt > > > > press is both symptom and perpetrator of a rotten democracy. > > > > > > > > "I'm not saying all media is biased but there is a > growing > > sense in > > > > people's minds that a lot of the media is biased," says > Anil > > Bairwal, > > > > national coordinator of National Election Watch. "Some do > it in > > a > > > > sublime manner and some do it openly." > > > > > > > > So why are we surprised when the voter turnout is so low, > despite the > > > > much-touted surge of political awareness among the young and > > > > post-Mumbai? It's all part and parcel of the public disgust > with > > the > > > > political system and the pillars of the Establishment that > support > > that > > > > system as well. For every newly-minted reform-minded, > politically > > aware > > > > voter, there are probably hundreds of jaded citizens who just > decide > > the > > > > heck with it. > > > > > > > > How widespread is the practice of pay per say? > > > > > > > > The best-known English-language dailies typically don't do > it so > > > > blatantly, candidates and others involved in the elections say. > > Rather, > > > > those papers are more likely to hue closely to one major party > or the > > > > other, making it tough for candidates who don't fit the > > papers' view of > > > > the world to be heard. But in the Hindi, Urdu and Gujarati > media, to > > > > name a few, the practice is widespread, candidates say. > > > > > > > > N. Gopalaswami, retired Chief Election Commissioner, says in an > > > > interview, "This is not something that can be ignored. It > is not > > just a > > > > few apparent cases, it is much more than that." > > > > > > > > He has heard of newspapers proferring a rate card - one price > for > > > > positive coverage, another for not negative coverage. The > commission > > > > heard complaints in both 2007 and 2008 about candidates being > charged > > > > for coverage. Among them, the national Communist parties who > > don't have > > > > the deep coffers to spend on campaigns. > > > > > > > > In Mumbai, a city appropriately geared to commerce, politicians > are > > > > faced with multiple payment options. Consider these phrases from > > > > newspaper editors and brokers, which I culled from campaigners: > > > > > > > > "You want a front page photo for free? This is something > people > > pay for." > > > > > > > > "If you want a picture in there or if you want a story, we > have > > to be > > > paid." > > > > > > > > "We're going to publish the interview, but you need to > buy > > 5,000 copies > > > > of our paper." > > > > > > > > "1.2 lakhs ($2,400) for the next two weeks and I will take > care > > of all > > > > that coverage." > > > > > > > > —Paul Beckett is the WSJ's bureau chief in New Delhi > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe:https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > -- > > > sukanya ghosh / +91 9831306925 > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in > > the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Mon May 11 18:58:18 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 06:28:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] WSJ on the Indian media - "Want Press Coverage? Give Me Some Money" In-Reply-To: <341380d00905110507xc7b5c6y82e4a4e7aad80a8e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <539234.10252.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Anupam   What you are talking about is 2008. We are in 2009 and Newsprint Prices are now around the same level as Oct 2007 which the report forwarded by you refers to as the low base. So current Newsprint prices cannot be an excuse for laying-off employees.   That aside, For-Profit corporates do often lay-off employees for one reason or the other in the name of protecting the bottom-line of their Balance Sheet. This is not particular to the Newspaper industry.   That is unfortunately how Businesses are run. That is unfortunately how Businesses are allowed to run.   Do I agree with that? NO   Do I think that in 'bad' times, every employee should take a cut based on a Zero-Zero Balance Sheet instead of laying-off employees and simultaneously seeking to make Profits? YES   Do I think there should be some kind of Employment Insurance to come to aid of employees (and pay them some reasonable percentage of their usual remuneration for upto 6 or 12 months) when they might be made redundant in 'bad' times? YES   But that is another topic.   Kshmendra   --- On Mon, 5/11/09, anupam chakravartty wrote: From: anupam chakravartty Subject: Re: [Reader-list] WSJ on the Indian media - "Want Press Coverage? Give Me Some Money" To: "sarai list" Date: Monday, May 11, 2009, 5:37 PM Dear Kshmendra, The reason why Times and many other newspapers are chucking people from their offices because of the high price of the newsprint, its not because the newspapers are not getting ads. the price of the newsprint went up by 60% in the quarter. http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-2957529,prtpage-1.cms -anupam On 5/11/09, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > Dear Anupam > > I was saddened by your comment "i think i know your precise intention in > attacking whatever i have been writing and trying to cite a contradiction,". > Just stating it, will not argue over it. You are entitled to your subjective > presumptions. > > It would be irrational and unreasonable for Newspaper Corporates that > function on a 'For-Profit' basis to receive 'subsidized Newsprint' from the > 'State'. > > Newsprint is freely available in the market. Domestic production > (reportedly) caters to roughly 50% of the demand. Imports are on > unrestricted OGL. As happens with most other products where there is split > supply from Domestics and Imports meeting the demand, the Prices would vary > in the Market at different times but will try to maintain equivalence > between Domestics and Imports. > > Yes this would mean that Newspapers have to pro-actively manage both costs > and revenues since Newsprint accounts for (reportedly) 50% of the costs. But > that is an essential part of any 'For-Profit Business'. > > Your information about domestic producers of Newsprint (essential > suppliers) are all under control of GOI does not appear to be correct. Even > if it were, nothing stops the user from buying from elsewhere (Imports). But > if the expectation is one one of "State subsidized supply" that is a > ridiculous expectation from any 'For-Profit Newspaper' > > You say that "todays news paper are mostly earning their revenue from the > state corporations" That could well be an element of the Revenue Model. But, > is there anything of significance that suggests that the "State" is through > that exercising any undue control on the Newspapers (at least on the 'major' > newspapers)? > > On the contrary, there has been much reporting of how some Newspapers have > succumbed to pressures from Non-Govt enterprises who provide Ad-Revenue and > have as per demand censored out or promoted news. TOI (as an example) having > gained notoriety just some time back. > > In fact, the "State" seems to have been quite supportive in recent > times towards the financial constraints faced by Newspapers. > > In Feb 2009 'newsprint, glazed newsprint and light weight newsprint used > for printing magazines' was exempted from customs duty. It was in any case > low at 3% for Newsprint and 5% for 'magazine Newsprint' > > It has been reported that simultaneously 'ad rates paid by various > government agencies, through the department of advertising and visual > publicity' (DAVP) were raised by 30%. > > On the issue of who produces Newsprint in India, this extract from an > Industry source (perhaps 2005 figures) might be of interest since it > contradicts the idea that the "State" is the primary source: > > """"" Manufacturing capacity for the Indian newsprint industry is spread > across six mills (with a cumulative) production capacity 418,000 tonnes). In > the public sector and around 30 mills (with an aggregate capacity of 315,000 > tonnes) in the private sector"""""' > > Honestly, I have failed to understand on what basis you made the statement > "free press is marginalised by the state and its functionaries" > > Kshmendra > > > --- On *Sun, 5/10/09, anupam chakravartty * wrote: > > > From: anupam chakravartty > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] WSJ on the Indian media - "Want Press Coverage? > Give Me Some Money" > To: "sarai list" > Date: Sunday, May 10, 2009, 8:03 PM > > Dear Kshmendra, > > It is only Times of india and Hindu which can afford to import newsprint for > all the editions of newspaper. there are three factories which essentially > supply newsprint, Nepanagar, Jagiroad, and im not sure about the third. all > these newsprint industries are under GoI and the production is accordingly > controlled. > However, i maintain that there are other forms of media for example internet > where media can remain independent and fair. but due to the limited reach > this medium has not proved to be success especially in the rural areas. > > you are not wrongly pointing out anything but i think i know your precise > intention in attacking whatever i have been writing and trying to cite a > contradiction, which surprisingly is a learning for me as well. so you are > not wrong in any case. the onus remains on the newspaper and kind of profits > it can make to keep itself out of the state control. moreover, with the news > of recession and other such things, todays news paper are mostly earning > their revenue from the state corporations > > thanks anupam > > > On 5/10/09, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > > > Dear Anupam > > > > You wrote "free press is marginalised by the state and its > functionaries.", > > seemingly linking it up with "newspapers essentially buy newsprint > from > > state." > > > > Isnt Newsprint in India freely available, freely importable? Where does > the > > "State" come in other than in specifying Import Duties (which > are not > > exploitative) and local taxation? > > > > Yes there was a time when there was next to none Newsprint production in > > India and it's Import was controlled by the "State Trading > Corpn." > > (STC), the "State" thereby exercising pressures through rationed > allocations > > of Newsprint. > > > > That is not the situation now. Is it? > > > > If I am not mistaken, Newsprint continues to be made available by the > > "State" at SUBSIDISED rates for specific purposes and in limited > quantities > > allocated to specific users. But it is the "User's" choice > to source such > > Newsprint from the "State". It is not forced upon anyone. > > > > There is no compulsion on Newspapers to buy Newsprint from the > "State". > > > > Please correct me if my understanding(s) are wrong because I found your > > statement strange and (to the extent of the knowledge I have) conveying an > > incorrect impression of there being State Control or State Pressure on > > Newspapers through control on Newsprint. > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > --- On *Fri, 5/8/09, anupam chakravartty * > wrote: > > > > > > From: anupam chakravartty > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] WSJ on the Indian media - "Want Press > Coverage? > > Give Me Some Money" > > To: "sarai list" > > Date: Friday, May 8, 2009, 12:30 PM > > > > certain other truths about newspapers: > > > > newspapers essentially buy newsprint from state. > > > > one newspaper costs Rs 15, while its sold for Rs 3-4 to the reader. > > > > free press is marginalised by the state and its functionaries. > > > > a reporter essentially fears a rejoinder. > > > > > > > > > > On 5/8/09, sukanya ghosh wrote: > > > > > > Sad but true. It's no surprise to learn of coverage > > 'bartering' for > > > politicians. Seems to me a logical enough step considering that most > > > other news coverage can consist of bought spaces. The entertainment > > > pages (which unfortunately bleed their way insidiously into most > other > > > pages) are established norms for this. It seems to me that a > 'free > > > press' in our country exists in a very marginal way. Someone I > met > > once > > > who worked for a leading English language daily told me very > pompously > > > that 'they' (read 'educated journalist'), had nothing > to > > do with and > > > were not to be associated with what the rest of the paper was saying. > > > Their reach consisted of being confined to the editorial pages of > which > > > they were supremely proud of. Never mind that the paper has various > > > other pages of 'news', many supplements and an incredibly bad > > Sunday > > > magazine. Are we to be thankful that we have a page of actual reading > > > material (some of it occasionally good) and assume the rest is all > > > trash? Another leading daily in another city (also English) has in > place > > > various marketing bundles which allow you to 'purchase' news > > coverage. > > > And these are not covert or shadowy backroom deals - it's all > very > > out > > > there for the right buyers. We see newspapers, news channels owned by > > > particular organisations who seem to spend a lot of their time > exhorting > > > the virtues of events / news pertaining to those organisations. And > my > > > pet grouse, all this while the arts sections keep shrinking in size > day > > > by day. Where trying to get coverage for an event / exhibition / book > > > (no matter how significant) can lead to nail biting finish, wondering > if > > > the reporter (who has been given detailed press releases) will at > least > > > get the name right. > > > > > > The irony being of course that there is no dearth of news of the > > > sensational variety if one were to attempt to report just facts in > the > > > case of Indian politics. But that would mean effort and interest. And > > > that surely is lacking in our press coverages. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rana Dasgupta wrote: > > > > Want Press Coverage? Give Me Some Money > > > > > > > > By PAUL BECKETT > > > > > > > > Ajay Goyal is a serious, independent candidate contesting for a > Lok > > > > Sabha seat in Chandigarh. > > > > Never heard of him? Neither, probably, have a lot of people in > > > > Chandigarh because when it came to getting press coverage for > his > > > > campaign he was faced with a simple message: If you want press, > you > > have > > > > to pay. > > > > > > > > So far, he says, he's been approached by about 10 people – > some > > brokers > > > > and public relations managers acting on behalf of newspaper > owners, > > some > > > > reporters and editors – with the message that he'll only > get > > written > > > > about in the news pages for a fee. We're not talking > advertising; > > we're > > > > talking news. > > > > > > > > One broker offered three weeks of coverage in four newspapers > for 10 > > > > lakh rupees ($20,000). A reporter and a photographer from a > > Chandigarh > > > > newspaper told him that for 1.5 lakh rupees ($3,000) for them > and a > > > > further 3 lakh rupees ($6,000) for other reporters, they could > > guarantee > > > > coverage in up to five newspapers for two weeks. > > > > > > > > "We would do good coverage for you," he says they told > him. > > All of those > > > > who approached him either were from national Hindi language > papers or > > > > regional papers, Mr. Goyal says. > > > > > > > > “You want a front page photo for free? This is something > people pay > > for.” > > > > > > > > In one case, he went along to see what would happen: a press > release > > he > > > > submitted full of falsehoods – claiming he had campaigned in > places > > he > > > > had never been, for instance – ran verbatim. One thing he has > never > > seen > > > > on his real campaign: a reporter there to cover the story. > > > > > > > > "It's disappointing," Mr. Goyal says. "What > good > > is literacy and > > > > education if people have no access to real news, investigation, > > > > skepticism or a questioning reporter." > > > > > > > > At the nexus of corruption in India, the nation's newspapers > > usually > > > > play either vigilante cop exposing wrongdoing in the public > interest > > (on > > > > a good day, at a few publications) or spineless patsy killing > stories > > on > > > > the orders of powerful advertisers. Many papers also engage in > > practices > > > > that cross the ethical line between advertising and editorial in > a > > way > > > > that is opaque, if not downright obscure, to readers. > > > > > > > > But it is of another order of magnitude to see reporters, > editors and > > > > newspaper owners holding the democratic process to ransom. A > free (in > > > > every sense) press is an integral part of a vibrant democracy. A > > corrupt > > > > press is both symptom and perpetrator of a rotten democracy. > > > > > > > > "I'm not saying all media is biased but there is a > growing > > sense in > > > > people's minds that a lot of the media is biased," says > Anil > > Bairwal, > > > > national coordinator of National Election Watch. "Some do > it in > > a > > > > sublime manner and some do it openly." > > > > > > > > So why are we surprised when the voter turnout is so low, > despite the > > > > much-touted surge of political awareness among the young and > > > > post-Mumbai? It's all part and parcel of the public disgust > with > > the > > > > political system and the pillars of the Establishment that > support > > that > > > > system as well. For every newly-minted reform-minded, > politically > > aware > > > > voter, there are probably hundreds of jaded citizens who just > decide > > the > > > > heck with it. > > > > > > > > How widespread is the practice of pay per say? > > > > > > > > The best-known English-language dailies typically don't do > it so > > > > blatantly, candidates and others involved in the elections say. > > Rather, > > > > those papers are more likely to hue closely to one major party > or the > > > > other, making it tough for candidates who don't fit the > > papers' view of > > > > the world to be heard. But in the Hindi, Urdu and Gujarati > media, to > > > > name a few, the practice is widespread, candidates say. > > > > > > > > N. Gopalaswami, retired Chief Election Commissioner, says in an > > > > interview, "This is not something that can be ignored. It > is not > > just a > > > > few apparent cases, it is much more than that." > > > > > > > > He has heard of newspapers proferring a rate card - one price > for > > > > positive coverage, another for not negative coverage. The > commission > > > > heard complaints in both 2007 and 2008 about candidates being > charged > > > > for coverage. Among them, the national Communist parties who > > don't have > > > > the deep coffers to spend on campaigns. > > > > > > > > In Mumbai, a city appropriately geared to commerce, politicians > are > > > > faced with multiple payment options. Consider these phrases from > > > > newspaper editors and brokers, which I culled from campaigners: > > > > > > > > "You want a front page photo for free? This is something > people > > pay for." > > > > > > > > "If you want a picture in there or if you want a story, we > have > > to be > > > paid." > > > > > > > > "We're going to publish the interview, but you need to > buy > > 5,000 copies > > > > of our paper." > > > > > > > > "1.2 lakhs ($2,400) for the next two weeks and I will take > care > > of all > > > > that coverage." > > > > > > > > —Paul Beckett is the WSJ's bureau chief in New Delhi > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe:https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > -- > > > sukanya ghosh / +91 9831306925 > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in > > the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Mon May 11 19:08:44 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 06:38:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Imported Newsprint Prices Head Downward in India Message-ID: <632630.15289.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> "Imported Newsprint Prices Head Downward in India"   Jan. 29, 2009 - After more than a year of climbing steadily, the prices for imported newsprint in India have dropped to $650 per ton, down 27.7% from $900 last quarter.   According to the Indian news service ContentSutra, over the past week Indian publishers have struck deals with representatives of Pan Asia Paper Co. Pte Ltd., and most of the deals have been struck in a window of $650-$690, depending on the quantity of the order. This will make a lot of difference for publishers of English dailies and magazines. Indian language publishers mostly use Indian newsprint, the price of which usually moves in line with that of imported newsprint. Indian newsprint mills are selling at $500 per ton, down 28.5% from $700 last quarter, industry sources tell us, ContentSutra said.   So far, the Anand Bazar Patrika Group and the so-called southern cartel, a newsprint buying consortium of south India-based dailies such as The Hindu and Malayala Manorama, are understood to have bought some quantity of newsprint at the new, lower prices. Many publishers may not be in a position to immediately take advantage of the lower prices as they bought large quantities at high prices during the previous quarter and are still sitting on large inventories, ContentSutra noted.   Still, even for those publishers the drop represents an opportunity to lower the average costs of their inventory by buying some newsprint now at a lower price, it said.   The lower prices are likely to prevail at least for two quarters, said Anil Vig, managing director, Anika International Pvt. Ltd, a newsprint agent that represents Pan Asia in India. “This quarter and the next we should see these levels. After that we will have to reassess the supply-demand situation to say where the prices will head.” Two quarters present plenty of buying opportunity even for publishers with a full inventory now.   Vig said the demand is exceptionally low this quarter, despite such low prices. “This quarter, it doesn’t look like publishers are even buying 40% of what they normally buy in a quarter,” he said. India’s annual newsprint import is estimated at one million tonnes, which translates into 250,000 tons per quarter.   Cost of newsprint represents the single largest expense for a publishing house, typically accounting for 55-65% of total costs. Newsprint prices, which were at $560 in early-mid 2007, climbed steadily to reach $920 by end-2008, sharply eating into publishers’ profitability. Dealing them a double blow was the appreciating rupee. While in January 2008, you could buy a dollar for Rs39.4, by December last year, you had to pay Rs50, ContentSutra explained.   Around September last year, it looked like the commodity would breach the all-time high price of $1,000, last touched in 1995. Panic set in and many big publishers mopped up all the stock that was available in the market, due to worries that solvency issues at big newsprint manufacturers such as AbitibiBowater could result in capacity-cutting and complete unavailability of newsprint.   Publishers adopted several measures to tide over the high costs, such as cutting pagination, width and thickness of pages and discontinuing supplements. They also successfully lobbied the government to raise the heavily discounted rates it paid for advertising for various government agencies and programs through the department for advertising and visual publicity.   SOURCE: ContentSutra (India)   http://www.paperage.com/2009news/01_29_2009newsprint_india.html     From c.anupam at gmail.com Mon May 11 19:17:16 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 19:17:16 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Imported Newsprint Prices Head Downward in India In-Reply-To: <632630.15289.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <632630.15289.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <341380d00905110647wc5c6c63oc471c603ebcd75ea@mail.gmail.com> Dear Kshmendra Thanks for informing me about these latest developments. However, news industry (i would call it an industry) operates with some other codes. Increasingly, many journalists have been told about the high newsprint prices and losses incurred by them as a reason why many o them have been thrown out of jobs. Even i refuse to believe it but looks like with what you have just posted, i have enough grounds to get back at my bosses if they send me the mail. thanks again anupam On 5/11/09, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > "Imported Newsprint Prices Head Downward in India" > > Jan. 29, 2009 - After more than a year of climbing steadily, the prices for > imported newsprint in India have dropped to $650 per ton, down 27.7% from > $900 last quarter. > > According to the Indian news service ContentSutra, over the past week > Indian publishers have struck deals with representatives of Pan Asia Paper > Co. Pte Ltd., and most of the deals have been struck in a window of > $650-$690, depending on the quantity of the order. This will make a lot of > difference for publishers of English dailies and magazines. Indian language > publishers mostly use Indian newsprint, the price of which usually moves in > line with that of imported newsprint. Indian newsprint mills are selling at > $500 per ton, down 28.5% from $700 last quarter, industry sources tell us, > ContentSutra said. > > So far, the Anand Bazar Patrika Group and the so-called southern cartel, a > newsprint buying consortium of south India-based dailies such as The Hindu > and Malayala Manorama, are understood to have bought some quantity of > newsprint at the new, lower prices. Many publishers may not be in a position > to immediately take advantage of the lower prices as they bought large > quantities at high prices during the previous quarter and are still sitting > on large inventories, ContentSutra noted. > > Still, even for those publishers the drop represents an opportunity to > lower the average costs of their inventory by buying some newsprint now at a > lower price, it said. > > The lower prices are likely to prevail at least for two quarters, said Anil > Vig, managing director, Anika International Pvt. Ltd, a newsprint agent that > represents Pan Asia in India. “This quarter and the next we should see these > levels. After that we will have to reassess the supply-demand situation to > say where the prices will head.” Two quarters present plenty of buying > opportunity even for publishers with a full inventory now. > > Vig said the demand is exceptionally low this quarter, despite such low > prices. “This quarter, it doesn’t look like publishers are even buying 40% > of what they normally buy in a quarter,” he said. India’s annual newsprint > import is estimated at one million tonnes, which translates into 250,000 > tons per quarter. > > Cost of newsprint represents the single largest expense for a publishing > house, typically accounting for 55-65% of total costs. Newsprint prices, > which were at $560 in early-mid 2007, climbed steadily to reach $920 by > end-2008, sharply eating into publishers’ profitability. Dealing them a > double blow was the appreciating rupee. While in January 2008, you could buy > a dollar for Rs39.4, by December last year, you had to pay Rs50, > ContentSutra explained. > > Around September last year, it looked like the commodity would breach the > all-time high price of $1,000, last touched in 1995. Panic set in and many > big publishers mopped up all the stock that was available in the market, due > to worries that solvency issues at big newsprint manufacturers such as > AbitibiBowater could result in capacity-cutting and complete unavailability > of newsprint. > > Publishers adopted several measures to tide over the high costs, such as > cutting pagination, width and thickness of pages and discontinuing > supplements. They also successfully lobbied the government to raise the > heavily discounted rates it paid for advertising for various government > agencies and programs through the department for advertising and visual > publicity. > > SOURCE: ContentSutra (India) > > http://www.paperage.com/2009news/01_29_2009newsprint_india.html > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From indersalim at gmail.com Mon May 11 22:49:14 2009 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 22:49:14 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Goblin Market: 1862 Feminist poem Message-ID: <47e122a70905111019v7575eec8l5a923e45b4633071@mail.gmail.com> Dear All, Just wondering, if there can be some active exchange of thoughts on a subject like Feminism. I guess, by and large, Men on List would shy away from active participation on the subject, but some women, who are very active on subjects like politics, might feel inclined to vent their anger against male chauvinistic social practices, here in India and elsewhere. To being with I thought of Christina Rossetti’s poem Goblin Market published in 1862. . A poem which even its critics have celebrated to the last alphabet of the poem. Christina Rossetti, throughout her lifetime, the author, claimed that the poem, which features remarkably sexual imagery, was a children's poem. The poem is about feminine anxiety and sexuality and its relation to Victorian social mores .Here is much in the poem that seems overtly sexual, such as when Lizzie, going to buy fruit from the goblins, considers her dead friend Jeanie, . "Who should have been a bride; / But who for joys brides hope to have / Fell sick and died", and lines like "Lizzie uttered not a word;/ Would not open lip from lip/ Lest they should cram a mouthful in;/ But laughed in heart to feel the drip/ Of juice that syruped all her face,/ And lodged in dimples of her chin,/ And streaked her neck which quaked like curd." The poem conveys "the need for an alternative social order". The symbolism, of Women as merely as fruit in the market for Men is quite explicitly woven within the poetic of the poem. Wondering if we have felt the hidden anguish, pain and oppression of our own Goblin Markets, which can be shared. A strong feminist poem which ends like this: For there is no friend like a sister, In calm or stormy weather, To cheer one on the tedious way, To fetch one if one goes astray, To lift one if one totters down, To strengthen whilst one stands." in the speech to her sister explicating her sacrifice: 'Did you miss me? Come and kiss me. Never mind my bruises. Hug me, kiss me, suck my juices Squeez'd from the goblin fruits for you, Goblin pulp and goblin dew. Eat me, drink me, love me; Laura, make much of me; For your sake I have braved the glen And had to do with goblin merchant men.' The stanza concludes very boldly, almost declaring helplessness, almost a forced prostitution: this market controlled by Men in power. This is how our Hero Laura cries, when she says : “ had to do with Goblin Merchant Men”. One can, almost hear loudly, "Come buy, come buy" throughout the poem ………………………………………………… The full poem with illustrations : http://www.victorianweb.org/authors/crossetti/gobmarket.html more illustration on the poem http://www.courses.vcu.edu/ENGL624-nf/goblinmarket/book%20images.htm for more detailed illustrations, spread out on 9 pages http://www.jamballa.de/pics/comics/goblinmarket.html the same on you tube in two parts http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpRbEVYqrtQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqyZGQaUWFQ in this piece on youtube one can see how fruits are sold in present day markets , http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ss7jeeErng - with love inder salim From kokopeli at gmail.com Tue May 12 01:38:56 2009 From: kokopeli at gmail.com (Sujata & Samantak) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 01:38:56 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Dr. Binayak Sen - two years in jail In-Reply-To: <556b1d6b0905111306t73bfda0akf6b36d60992c8a84@mail.gmail.com> References: <556b1d6b0905111306t73bfda0akf6b36d60992c8a84@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <556b1d6b0905111308ped9e157p3de4e5fbbd1a3d52@mail.gmail.com> Dear All, As you know, on 14 May 2009 Dr. Binayak Sen will complete two years in a Raipur prison on charges of abetting Maoist activity in Chhattisgarh, sedition, and waging war against the State. This committed advocate of civil liberties has spent over three decades in the service of some of the poorest and most neglected people in this country and raised his voice time and again against atrocities in Chhattisgarh in his attempt to uphold the values of our country’s Constitution and democracy. The imprisonment of Dr. Binayak Sen is symbolic of the monstrous injustice and callous violation of democratic values by the state, and it ought to be a matter of shame for all of us, as citizens of an allegedly democratic nation, that a man such as him continues to languish for two years without his accusers having succeeded in producing a shred of evidence that justifies keeping this 58-year-old paediatrician behind bars. Several of us, teachers at Jadavpur University, feel that we ought to do something – no matter how small – to express solidarity with Dr. Binayak Sen, and his family, on the second anniversary of his incarceration. Some have asked me, when I have written earlier about Dr. Sen’s case, “What can we do?” Others have asked, “What good will come of whatever we do?” I feel that gathering on 14 May will be our way not only of expressing solidarity but also bearing witness and making it known that we do not in any way condone Dr. Sen’s imprisonment. So, do please come, on Thursday, 14 May 2009 from 4:00 pm onwards, in front of Worldview Bookshop (opposite Milanda’s Canteen). Bring along some poetry which you would like to recite, or a song to sing, bring along a flute or a guitar. Make and bring a few posters, too. Ask your friends, family and neighbours to come. Forward this mail to as many people as you want. Let us try to show that we in Kolkata still care. We will also be collecting contributions for the legal expenses for Dr. Sen’s case. Those wishing to contribute may bring along an AC Payee cheque in the name of “Binayak Sen Support Fund, SBI a/c no. 301810 20786”. This is a fund set up by the doctors of the CMC Vellore Alumni association, and they will send receipts by post if the address provided with the cheque. We will collect all the cheques and courier them together as a gesture of our support. No cash will be accepted. Those who wish to send cheques after may 14th may also send them directly to Dr. P. Zachariah, c/o CMC Alumni Association, Christian Medical College, Vellore 632 002. Apologies, as always, for intruding upon your time. Warmest regards, Samantak P.S. You may also have received a similar letter from Kavita (Professor Kavita Panjabi) or Subha-di (Professor Subha Chakraborty Dasgupta) on this same matter. If so, apologies doubly redoubled. From akmalik45 at yahoo.com Tue May 12 13:31:29 2009 From: akmalik45 at yahoo.com (A.K. Malik) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 01:01:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] No mention of emergency anywhere in schooling ? Message-ID: <768365.26172.qm@web39107.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dear Rakesh Ji, The start up paragraphs are outstanding.Before I give my views on the rest of the paragraphs, I may make it clear that I am neither a Hindu Protagonist nor a Muslim basher nor an RSS sympathiser but what I see, read and observe day-to-day forces me to write.I have yet to see a single person who gives opinion against any Muslim writing about their plight or rights or a Christian doing the same but there are hundreds who would bash a Hindu if he/she writes anything on the plight of Hindus. May be it is akin to a neighbour coming to your house complaining about your child for some alleged act to his/her child and to placade him/her and you slap your child irrespective of the fact whether he/she is at fault or not to make yourself honourable and respectful in the eyes of the neighbour and this pleases the neighbour.I am a Delhi resident and never saw any RSS element doing any mischief against sikhs in 1984 riots while you write that RSS to a certain extent supported it. It is only our democracy which allows people to make any type of allegations without any material proof against any one and everyone.If the rule of law is prevailing in our country and there is sufficient material evidence against any criminal activity done by anyone or any organisation, let the rule of law prevail and the guilty punished. When sufficent evidence is not there all accused are set free by the courts.But BJP etc become exceptions. They continue to be non-secular and blameable for every riot taking place in the country.If it is right ban such organisations,the Constitution and other laws enacted by Parliament permit doing so. When Modi says Afzal Guru has not been hanged in spite of being convicted by the Supreme Court of India, Rahul Gandhi replies by saying he is in the queue for mercy petition to be decided and Modi wants him to be hanged out of queue or something to this effect.Well if everybody has to be in the normal Queue can someone ask these politicians including Rahul Gandhi to be in Queue while travelling and not take predence over general public.Let them all be in normal queues. We in our daily lives see appeasement for Muslim and other sections for vote bank politics instead of imparting education,equality of opportunities irrespective of caste,creed and religion. (A.K.Malik) --- On Mon, 5/11/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > From: Rakesh Iyer > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] No mention of emergency anywhere in schooling ? > To: "Rajen Uppinangadi" > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net, A.Khanna at sms.ed.ac.uk > Date: Monday, May 11, 2009, 3:55 PM > Dear Rajen jee (and all) > > It is certainly right that children are not learning of the > Emergency. > But here there are two issues which must be looked at > before drawing > conclusions. > > Firstly, there are many incidents which must be looked at > in our > textbooks, and not just the Emergency. The tragedy of the > Partition > has never been dealt with in our textbooks, from any point > of view. It > seems our govt. believes that just putting out numbers and > mentioning > certain incidents is enough of tribute paid to those dead. > Our history > textbooks should deal comprehensively with the Partition, > the possible > reasons as to why it started, the sociological reasons of > why such > grave violence took place, and what were the after effects > of these. > > There are other events and policies to be looked at as > well. We have > never looked in our history as to why India chose to be a > democracy, > when it could also have become a dictatorship at that time. > The > reasons and rationale given in our history as to why it > became a > democratic country must be explained to students, and the > importance > of democracy in particular must also be explained, for only > would then > the students would be able to make sense of why the > Emergency was > wrong. Otherwise, irrespective of whether it was there in > our syllabus > or not, the Emergency would be just that, a day to give > speeches about > like the three national holidays have become, without us > learning > anything from the reasons as to why these days are > celebrated. > > And not only this, we need to look at other events as well. > For > example, who can forget the 1984 Delhi pogrom where 3,000 > Sikhs were > butchered in a single day thanks to goons led by Congress > leaders, > with the leadership under Rajiv Gandhi doing nothing? Who > can equally > forget the inaction of Narsimha Rao and the culpability of > Kalyan > Singh in the Babri Masjid demolition on 6th December, 1992? > Who can > forget the riots and mayhem unleashed across India after > that, > particularly in Mumbai by goons of the Shiv Sena? And who > can equally > forget Godhra and the way it was politically used by some > people to > unleash terrible atrocities on the innocents of Gujarat, > most of whom > were Muslims? > > All these incidents must be taught and our citizens must be > also > taught the importance of values like fundamental rights, > rights to > minorities, and also the value systems on the basis of > which our state > is supposed to function, like democracy and secularism > (which people > today have now begun to abuse, thereby endangering the > very > foundations on the basis of which the Indian Republic was > built upon). > Equally, they must know such incidents which tried to > weaken this base > of India so that they can at least decide how to go about > improving > India in their own ways. > > Secondly, the RSS is as culpable of destroying India as the > Congress, > if not more. The RSS from the very beginning has had the > conception of > Hindu Rashtra, which is utter nonsense. The Muslims who > stayed back in > India can't be thrown into the sea, but if the RSS had its' > way, they > would have to live as worse than second class citizens(this > coming > from the mouth of Golwalkar, a chief of the RSS). Equally, > the RSS has > been responsible in acts which can only make human beings > feel ashamed > if they have ever been associated with this > organizations(that is if > they are actually human beings and not animals). > > The RSS first of all was indirectly involved in the Gandhi > assassination case, and this came from the mouth of the > judges who > actually judged the case. Unfortunately, it couldn't be > proved. But > after his assassination, the RSS activists were > distributing sweets > for the same. Then, the RSS indulged in creating riots > after refugees > from East Pakistan(now Bangladesh) in 1950 started coming. > After that, > the RSS cadres combined with the Congress cadres in the > 1969 riots, > considered the mother of riots in Gujarat. Then of course, > the RSS > ideology penetrated into the police and the RAF, which is > why since > 1977, there was one major cycle of riot every year > somewhere at some > place, or some massacre, be it Aligarh, Moradabad, Meerut, > or even > Nellie. Of course, the Congress was hand-in-glove with the > RSS, > ensuring the Hindu vote would consolidate behind them. > > Then the RSS also supported to a certain extent the 1984 > riots. In > this very forum, a statement was put up regarding the views > of Nanaji > Deshmukh, a prominent RSS leader, regarding what should be > the Sikh > response to the pogrom (which is to suffer and keep quiet). > And then > who can forget their own role in the mother of all frenzies > resulting > in the Babri Masjid demolition. (Again the Congress started > this and > the RSS continued from there, through the BJP, the Rath > Yatra, the VHP > and the Bajrang Dal and Co.). > And finally, what about 2002? Who said that revenge for > Godhra was > being taken (through rapes and mutilation of dead bodies)? > > The RSS has been also accused of misusing money given in > the aftermath > of the 2001 Gujarat earthquake to get weapons which were > used during > the 2002 post-Godhra violence. And you, dear Sir, seem to > be living in > some other era for actually stating that RSS has > contributed greatly > to the nation. > > Probably, when every day terror attacks take place in this > nation, > people would realize that the RSS doesn't have the balls to > protect > the nation either through the BJP, the VHP or the Bajrang > Dal. And by > then it would be too late. If we have to end terror > attacks, we have > to finish those who keep on spreading terror for their own > benefit, be > it the fundamentalists on the Muslim side (read the > Lashkar, the Jaish > and their co. in India), or the fundamentalists on the > Hindu side (be > it the RSS and the Sangh Parivar or the Shiv Sena). > > And most importantly, we should follow laws, not by > coercion, but by > choice after reasoning them out. Only then, does our > democracy have > some meaning. And only then would teaching Emergency and > other events > would have some meaning. > > Regards > > Rakesh > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Tue May 12 14:09:28 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 14:09:28 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] No mention of emergency anywhere in schooling ? In-Reply-To: <768365.26172.qm@web39107.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <768365.26172.qm@web39107.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Malik jee To begin with, since you have indirectly stated that I am blaming RSS without any material evidence, I said that on this very forum, there was an article where Nanaji Deshmukh is giving a speech asking Sikhs to bear wrongdoings committed on them silently. I don't mean to say that the RSS organized those incidents, it's the Congress goons and leaders who ensured that. But the RSS was actually happy that the Hindus had been used up as a vote bank, though for them the major 'enemies' were Muslims and Christians. Having said that, the role of the RSS in communalizing the atmosphere can't be disregarded. I don't understand what do you mean when you say Muslims are being appeased. And for Hindu bashing and Muslim bashing, I would say there may be people who may indulge in Hindu bashing, but on this forum, I am witnessing people who indulge in Muslim bashing. I would like to bash people who commit injustice, not Hindus or Muslims who are innocent. And since many keep on saying BJP is communal and others are secular, let me state the very obvious in my mind: Political parties in India, by and large, be it the BJP/Congress/Left/RJD/others are communal. Regards Rakesh From jeebesh at sarai.net Tue May 12 15:53:20 2009 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 15:53:20 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Greetings from Yamuna Jiye Abhiyaan. Message-ID: <5871DA84-9E00-4D0F-BCB7-2DA9B2430DB4@sarai.net> To, Sri Tejendra Khanna, Hon'ble Lt Governor DELHI Respected Sir, Greetings from Yamuna Jiye Abhiyaan. Media reports inform that the DDA has decided much against the advice of its own expert committee to bail out in form of a grant (against 333 additional flats) of Rs 700 crores to the builder who had contracted to construct the so called Games Village (Sir, you would agree with us that it is such a misnomer and rather ironical to call perhaps the most expensive residential property in the city a "village") under the PPP model whereby the builder was obliged to raise its own finances and was free to make money by selling 70% of the flats. Sir, allow us to lodge our strong protest both as a civil society consortium of groups and people as well as tax payers on this development as it is the public money (tax payer's) that the DDA is risking on a project that is not only against the public interest as it compromises the life line river of the city, but is at best an uncertain property development with little future viability even in economic terms, when in all likelihood a two bed room flat in and around the city might soon be available to a consumer at a sub Rs 15 lakh price tag. Sir, it is unbeleivable that a multinational company like the said builder with properties spread all over the globe cannot find the meagre (in global terms) sum to fulfill its contractual obligations. Even if that were true, why should then the Indian tax payer foot a bill which would then be encashed by the said defaulting company to market the said construction as its property to attract more business. So, at the very least since the majority investment, and majority ownership and the associated risks of the flats would now be of the DDA's and by implication would now of the Indian tax payer, the said company must be asked to surrender its name and logo etc from the said property and be debarred from show casing it as its creation to attract business. Our faith in the wisdom and a sense of justice of the Indian judiciary remains firm and hence we remain hopeful that like the High Court of Delhi, even the Supreme Court would find merit in our contention currently sub judice before it and the impugned structure would be found to be wrong and illegal and against public interest. But, whatever be the final outcome of the case currently before the SC, we are convinced that your honor would see merit in our appeal to you to debar the said builder from claiming the said impugned construction to be its show case property before the world. With warm regards, Manoj Misra Convenor -- www.yamunajiyeabhiyaan.blogspot.com From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Tue May 12 16:06:24 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 03:36:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] "Life as a female Tamil Tiger guerilla relived by one of first female soldiers" Message-ID: <72828.88050.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com>     "Life as a female Tamil Tiger guerilla relived by one of first female soldiers" 08 May 2009   (In 1987, aged 17, Niromi de Soyza shocked her middle-class Sri Lankan family by joining the Tamil Tigers. One of the rebels' first female soldiers, equipped with rifle and cyanide capsule, she was engaged in fierce combat.)   December 23 1987 was a warm, clear day, and I was hiding under a lantana bush with eight of my comrades in a village north of Jaffna. With our rifles cocked and our cyanide capsules clenched between our teeth, we awaited the soldiers who had been scouring the area for us for several hours. Our orders were to empty our magazines into them before biting into the glass capsules we called 'kuppies' that hung on a thread around our necks. As a Tamil Tiger guerrilla, there was no honour in being caught alive.   There had been 22 of us that morning – nine boys and 13 girls, aged between 15 and 26 (I was 17). Now, four of my comrades were missing, two were wounded. Ten were dead.    At dawn that day, Indian soldiers had surrounded our hideout, an abandoned house in Urumpiraay, a village in Sri Lanka's far north. As the war had intensified, our units were being squeezed out of Jaffna peninsula. We slept in different places each night: in open fields or houses taken by force.   Our sentry had spotted the enemy soldiers beyond a distant line of trees to the south, and Muralie, our unit's second in command, decided that we should flee north across an arterial road. The morning chill was still in the air and the dew dripped from banana leaves as we ran though fields and approached the road. As we attempted to cross it, we were ambushed from both sides in a barrage of automatic gunfire, grenades and mortars.   'Get on the ground!' Muralie commanded. 'Fire and break through!'   Everyone was screaming. We crashed to the earth as the gunfire grew heavier, now coming from behind as well. A helicopter gunship hovered above, strafing. We were surrounded. There was no cover other than a few palmyra and banana trees that dotted the landscape.   Lying on my stomach, I shuffled forward, following another girl, Ajanthi. My heart was pounding and thick smoke stung my eyes. In a state of panic, a few of my comrades attempted to cross the road. One by one, they fell. One was on her back, screaming, 'My leg, someone help me!'   A grenade flew over from my left. As I scrambled to my hands and knees, I realised Gandhi, our area leader, was in its path. 'Gandhi anna, duck!' I screamed. The grenade hit his head and exploded, ripping his skull apart and covering me with blood and tissue.   Ajanthi got to her knees, ready to dash across the road, then abruptly fell backwards, her arms and legs splayed awkwardly. Blood spurted from the centre of her forehead, soaking her auburn hair. In shock, the air left my lungs and I could not inhale it back. Ajanthi had been my friend since primary school and we had joined the Tigers together. She had been hit by a sniper.   I crawled forward holding my AK-47 with both hands, desperate to reach Ajanthi and drag her to safety. To my right, two comrades were trying to drag Muralie, who had also been hit, through the wet grass. His blood-soaked body kept slipping through their hands. As I reached Ajanthi our unit commander, Sudharshan, yanked me by the collar, dragging me with him.   'But Sudharshan anna,' I said, stumbling to my feet. 'We have to get Ajanthi, Muralie and the others.' 'They will follow us,' he said.   We ran through the fields and scrambled over a concrete parapet as rifle rounds flew from behind us, gouging holes in the wall. On the other side, we kept running and found five comrades. Seeing no means of escape, we took shelter under a large lantana bush.   At sunset, confident that the soldiers had moved on, we set out through fields, supporting the injured, eventually reaching a gathering of huts on a narrow lane. News of our arrival spread quickly, and a curious crowd assembled along the sides of the lane. Most had never seen female Tigers before. An old woman flung her bony arms around me: 'Ayyo, my poor child! Wouldn't your mother's heart break if she saw you like this?' I didn't realise then how I must have looked – a starved teenage girl with torn clothes, caked in blood, barefoot and carrying an automatic rifle. Most villagers wanted us gone. If the enemy soldiers knew we were still around, they were sure to attack the village.   On Christmas Day we arrived at a hideout occupied by another Tigers unit. I sat outside on the mud veranda, thinking about the ambush. Since joining the Tigers, Ajanthi and I – and another girl, Akila – had been inseparable. The last time I had seen Akila she had been firing her M16 rifle from behind a water tank during the ambush. Sengamalam, one of the boys, told me that more than 2,000 soldiers had been involved in the round-up of our 22-strong unit, and had dumped the bodies of those who died in the open air. My mind swum with images of Ajanthi and Muralie, their bodies being scavenged by dogs.   I heard footsteps and looked up to see the silhouette of three figures approaching our hut. I recognised the tall Akila, her hair in plaits, and ran towards her. As we embraced she told me that, after the ambush, she had survived by hiding in the water tank for two days. 'I wish I was dead, like Ajanthi,' I spluttered. 'How will I face her family again?'   'We have to keep their dream of Tamil Eelam alive,' Akila said. For me, the dream felt far from reach.   I was born in 1969 in Kandy, a Sinhala-majority town in Sri Lanka's hill country, where I spent the first seven years of my childhood. Although I had Tamil ancestry – Tamils make up 18 per cent of Sri Lanka's population – my extended family included Sinhalese, Sri Lanka's main ethnic group. In 1978 I was packed off to the northern Tamil city of Jaffna to live with my grandmother, whom I hardly knew. 'So that you can become a doctor like your aunts and uncles,' my father reasoned. 'Education in Jaffna is far superior.' I was a confident, independent girl, and my parents believed that I would cope well in a new environment without them.   Though I was unsure about becoming a doctor, life in Jaffna was idyllic. Not knowing when I would see my family again, I began to distance myself from them and focused on shaping my own life, making new friends and working hard at school. My weekends were busy with music, art and drama lessons.   Soon after, my father, an engineer, went to work in Dubai (it was becoming difficult for Tamils to get good jobs at home). My mother, a teacher, and sister, who was three years my junior, joined me in Jaffna. I had been oblivious to the deep-rooted tensions that were simmering between the Tamils and Sinhalese, and knew nothing of the anti-Tamil riots that had killed more than 250 Tamils in the country the year before. But before long the growing unrest outside my sheltered world was hard to ignore.   Tamil pressure groups were becoming more vocal in their calls for equal rights between Tamils and Sinhalese, and an end to what many Tamils felt were the government's discriminatory policies. Meanwhile, Sinhala extremism in the south was growing. There were boycotts, strikes and skirmishes. There were reports of Tamil politicians being shot dead, Tamil students being kidnapped.   The quest for equality had spawned a number of militant groups, including the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE), known as Tamil Tigers outside Sri Lanka. In the late 1970s they had taken up an armed struggle for an autonomous Tamil homeland – Tamil Eelam – in the north and north-east of the country. To begin with, they carried out minor attacks on government targets, but on July 23 1983, when I was 14, they ambushed an army patrol in Jaffna, which brought them into the national spotlight.   Thirteen soldiers died that day, but about 1,000 Tamils were said to have lost their lives in an anti-Tamil pogrom in the south that followed. Large numbers of Tamil men, mostly teenagers, reacted to what they saw as the Sri Lankan government's indiscriminate persecution of innocent Tamils and joined the insurgency, which was rapidly gathering support.   By 1985 the situation had escalated into full-scale war in the north and east, with the government launching a military offensive on Jaffna to wipe out the rebellion. From a normal happy upbringing, I now found myself living in constant fear. Jaffna's library, where I spent much of my free time, was burnt down by government forces.   We lived under indiscriminate aerial bombing and artillery shelling, day and night; our movements were restricted by long curfews. We spent many days in our home-built bunker where I studied, listening to gunshots and explosions, still hopeful that my exams would go ahead as scheduled. The Tigers' television station broadcast images of war: militant training camps, dead bodies, Tamil funerals. The images began to haunt me, and I felt outraged that no one was being held to account, and that the outside world was doing nothing.   The government launched further offensives and air raids became commonplace. Bodies were sometimes strewn by the roadside on my way to school, or hanging from lampposts. I was dismayed by the attitude of family and friends who believed that they had no power to change the situation, but didn't support the militant groups either. 'These movements are run mostly by uneducated, low-caste youth,' they said. 'They are not capable of solving the Tamil problem.' But at least they were trying, I thought.   The more I listened to the militants, the more I sympathised with the idea of an armed struggle, the more it seemed like the only response. There had never been any military connections in my family but I felt that if we were going to be killed or driven from our homes, then shouldn't we at least put up a fight? With friends, I talked about joining the insurgency, though few felt the same, believing that such actions would bring disgrace to our families. Middle-class girls didn't do such things.   In May 1987, when I was 17, the Sinhala government launched Operation Liberation, declaring all-out war against the Tamil militants on the Jaffna peninsula. By now, the Tigers had gained administrative control of the region, restricting government forces to their barracks. My mother decided that we would return to Kandy until the war was over. As we prepared to leave, I made up my mind to run away to join the Tigers. I told my mother that I was going to Ajanthi's to say goodbye.   After I told Ajanthi my plans, she said, 'I'll come with you for moral support', and we set off together for the office of the Student Organisation of Liberation Tigers, a large house near Jaffna University. We were interviewed. They were hesitant about recruiting middle-class girls, but finally relented. Ajanthi said she would miss me too much if I left without her, and was enlisted, too.   'The life of a freedom fighter is harder than you think,' Thileepan, the leader of the Tigers' political wing, warned us, adjusting his spectacles. 'We gamble with our own lives and bury our friends. There'll be none of the comforts you are used to. I'm not convinced that you are suited to this lifestyle, but no one here is held against their will.'   Knowing my mother and sister were out, I went home and wrote them a note explaining that I had joined the Tigers. The following morning, naturally, my mother and sister and Ajanthi's family came to the Tigers' camp to plead with us to return home. 'You are about to ruin your life. This is not for you,' my mother said, grasping my hands, her eyes filled with tears. Ajanthi's father said we had been brainwashed.   Thileepan sent us to work with members of the Tigers' female political wing, the Freedom Birds, contributing articles to their magazine. At the Freedom Birds' headquarters, we met Akila, who at 17 was already an active member. We immediately became friends.   A few weeks later, Ajanthi and I were selected by Thileepan for military training, and sent to an all-girls' camp in an outer suburb of Jaffna. As we were the first group of female fighters to receive military training in Sri Lanka (at this point, there were fewer than 80 female Tigers), the organisation's enigmatic leader, Velupillai Prabhakaran, wanted to talk to us personally. Prabhakaran was seated behind a table in his office as I entered. The flame from a hurricane lamp cast shadows across his round face, and his large brown eyes glistened.   Although he did not ask many questions, it felt like he knew everything about me. 'There's hardly anyone in our movement from your suburb,' he said. 'Most girls here come from rural areas. They are used to hard work, pounding rice and chopping firewood. Be in no doubt: training is going to be harder for you.'   Training, in a village south of Jaffna, was indeed gruelling. The days began with a two-hour exercise regime, followed by commando training. In the afternoons we had firing practice and lessons in explosives and camouflage. Prabhakaran would visit often, and one afternoon expressed his desire to recruit us into the newly formed Black Tigers, the organisation's suicide bomber wing. Only a week earlier the first of the Tigers' suicide bombers, known as Captain Miller, had driven a lorry packed with explosives into an army barracks. Prabhakaran wanted to give women the same 'opportunity', he said. I knew I could never do such a thing because I didn't have the courage.   As the war escalated, civilians were being drawn into the conflict, and a humanitarian crisis was developing in Jaffna. Eventually, the Indian government intervened. It was no secret that India had been fostering Tamil militants and providing them with training and ammunition, and the relationship between the Indian and Sri Lankan governments was strained.   Then the peacekeeping forces arrived, a ceasefire came into effect, and a peace accord was implemented on July 29 1987. The war-weary Tamils welcomed the Indian Peace Keeping Forces (IPKF) with open arms, and our training came to an abrupt halt. But Prabhakaran informed us that our services would be required in a month or two – he was sure that hostilities would resume by then. Like the Sri Lankan government, he did not appreciate the foreign intrusion.   So it came to pass. In September 1987, while other Tamil militant organisations engaged in the political process, Thileepan went on hunger-strike at the Nallur Hindu Temple near Jaffna in protest against certain aspects of the peace deal. Mass rallies were organised by pro-Tiger Tamils in Jaffna and also by Sinhala extremists in the south, both parties believing the IPKF's intervention served only to assert India's supremacy in the region. Fourteen days later, Thileepan died. The Tigers blamed the Indian government for his death, and for standing aside while Sinhalese forces violated the peace deal by arresting some prominent Tigers despite the amnesty provisions, and organising Sinhala settlement programmes in Tamil areas.   The war resumed, just as Prabhakaran had predicted, though now we were fighting not only the government troops but the peacekeepers, too. A few thousand youths suited only for guerrilla warfare, we were no match for the world's second largest army. Fighting the Indians made no sense to me.   I had joined the Tigers to make a stand against my country's oppressive government, but now found myself at war with those who had come to maintain peace. It seemed that we might be destroying our only chance of resolving the situation peacefully. I expressed my doubts to Akila. Fiercely loyal and single-minded, she argued that, as foot soldiers, we were unaware of the complex politics of the situation, and that our leaders knew exactly what they were doing. 'Believe that Anna Prabhakaran is always right,' she told me. I decided to ignore the growing disquiet inside me and joined the war.   In October 1987 I was sent to the battle front north of Jaffna where, by coincidence, Akila and Ajanthi joined me in a unit of 30 cadres. The first female Tiger had died only a few days earlier, confirming that women were now firmly engaged in frontline fighting. During battles we had been trained to fire in the general direction of the enemy, not at individual targets, and I am not sure whether any of my bullets hit anyone. I'm glad I don't know. I once asked the more experienced Muralie how he had coped with the knowledge that he had shot people. 'After your second victim,' he said, 'you learn to live with it.'   The Tigers had no chance of overpowering the Indian army. Jaffna and many surrounding areas were now under their total control. We were being ambushed on an almost daily basis, becoming accustomed to life on the run. Support among Tamil civilians was waning, too. Whenever we encountered them, they pleaded with us to stop this futile war.   By early 1988 self-preservation was now our main strategy. Forced out of the Jaffna peninsula by the IPKF and following an overnight boat trip, we found ourselves in the jungles of the Vanni in the Northeastern Province, where it was easier to lie low. I was now part of a large unit of nearly 45 girls, with Sengamalam, one of only two boys, in charge. We moved around the jungle constantly, enduring primitive living conditions, while 130,000 Indian troops searched for some 2,000 Tigers on foot and by air.   After five months in the jungle, I contracted malaria; many others were ill with dysentery and typhoid. Akila stayed by my side, taking care of me, bringing medication and rice water in a rusty tin. I felt broken, physically and emotionally, constantly questioning the purpose of a war that could clearly never be won.   I had believed the militant propaganda, convinced that Tamil Eelam could be achieved within a year or two, but it was now clear that an armed conflict would resolve nothing. 'You are free to go home any time,' Thileepan had told me. It was time to walk away while I still could. One morning in June 1988, at a house near the forest where we had taken shelter following an attack on our hideout, I approached Sengamalam as he washed at a well.   'I want to resign.'   He stopped drying his face with a sarong and looked at me with alarm. 'Is someone giving you grief?'   'I just can't cope any more,' I said. 'I am tired of this war. I'm weak.'   Calmly, he said that he was sorry, that he was surprised I had lasted so long. 'I must warn you,' he said, 'your life will be in grave danger – from the Sri Lankan army, Indian forces, even rival organisations. Your name is on their wanted lists.' I didn't care. Surrendering my rifle and kuppie, I severed all ties with the Tigers, unsure of what the future held or whether my family would take me back.   Before I left, I went to say goodbye to Akila. When she saw me wearing a dress, her jaw dropped. 'What's going on? You're leaving?' Consumed with shame, I could hardly speak. 'I can't believe you're leaving me,' she sobbed. 'We have so much to achieve.'   Before I could answer, Sengamalam hurried Akila into the forest and I watched her fade into the bright sun. I never saw her again.   Sengamalam organised for a local boy to take me to an old woman's hut in the nearby town of Kilinochchi. For the next seven days, the old woman and I did not exchange a word or a smile.   One afternoon, while I helped herd her cattle into the shed, I saw my mother running towards me down the dirt lane. The mayor of Kilinochchi, a distant relative of ours, had bumped into the Tamil boy who had taken me to the old woman's hut. The mayor was carrying a photograph of me that my mother had sent him and asked the boy if he had seen me. Once I had been identified, the mayor fetched my mother. The only emotion I felt was relief, as if I was no longer capable of experiencing happiness or sadness. My mother embraced me and sobbed while I stood numb.   'I thought you might have disowned me,' I said, finally.   'You're my daughter,' she replied. 'I'd never give up on you.'   Within two months of being re­united with my family, during which time we never discussed my experiences with the Tigers, I was sent to a boarding school in India, where I completed my studies.   Although now in the country whose army I had fought only months before, I was determined to move on, and make the best of the second chance I had been given. On the surface, normality had returned. My fellow students were girls from affluent families who liked talking about boys, movie stars and make-up. When the lights in our dormitory were turned off at night, I cried myself to sleep.   In 1990, with help from a relative, I moved to Sydney (my family later moved here, too) and went to university. After my departure from the Tigers, and with a new life opening up to me, I blocked out any news of Sri Lanka as best I could. These days, of course, that is impossible.   The two-year war between the Tigers and the Indian forces came to an end in July 1989, with changes of government in both countries. But the fighting between the Tigers and Sri Lankan government forces continued. The primitive but effective guerrilla organisation that I left behind grew into a sophisticated and formidable fighting force. As its methods became more extreme, the LTTE's notoriety increased – not just within Sri Lanka but all over the world. (In late 2001 it was classified as a terrorist organisation by many countries, including Britain.)   The Tigers have carried out hundreds of suicide attacks over the past two decades – more than all other radical organisations in the world combined – notably the assassination of the former Indian prime minister Rajiv Gandhi in 1991 and the Sri Lankan president Ranasinghe Premadasa in 1993. The guiding principle of the Tigers, which is so difficult for outsiders to understand, is that the greater the sacrifice, the higher the honour. There are no bravery medals or pompous ceremonies for living Tigers. They are recognised for their efforts, and awarded a rank, only posthumously.   The past decade has seen several attempts to form a lasting peace agreement between the Tigers and the government, all unsuccessful, with the most recent deal being torn up in early 2008. Since 2006 the LTTE's numbers have fallen sharply, funding from the Tamil diaspora has dwindled while government forces stepped up their campaign.   At the beginning of this year, a number of crucial Tiger strongholds were recaptured, and the government was confident it would annihilate the remaining 1,000 or so Tigers within months. After three decades, the civil war – which has claimed more than 70,000 lives, including at least 23,000 Tigers – appears to have reached its endgame, the Tigers on the verge of a final, crushing defeat. The Tamils are, it seems, back at square one.   In fact, the situation may be worse than ever, with the UN estimating last month that 150,000 civilians were trapped in the eight-square-mile battle zone, under constant threat of bombing from government forces and being used as human shields by the increasingly desperate Tigers. Some human rights groups have condemned the Sri Lankan government for practising ethnic cleansing against them under the guise of fighting terrorism.   Although the Tigers have staged many comebacks in history, the latest government offensive may prove fatal. But the scars of this war will remain and until a political solution that recognises and respects the rights of the Tamil people is reached, I am certain that the Tamil fight will continue in one form or another.   More and more these days, my thoughts turn to the friends I have lost. Recently, for the first time, I typed Akila's name into Google and found several archived reports and court documents. Akila died on November 1 1995, in a battle against the Sri Lankan army in Neervaeli, a town for which we had fought side by side. With defeat imminent, she ordered the members of her unit to bite into their cyanide capsules, and then did the same herself. She was 24. After her death, she was awarded the highest rank achievable in the Tigers at that time: lieutenant colonel.   The most shocking detail was that she had been wanted for masterminding, along with Prabhakaran, the killing of Rajiv Gandhi. The suicide bomber and her collaborators had been members of Akila's unit, as I might have been if I had not walked away from the Tigers.   On the surface, my life goes on as a happily married mother in an affluent Sydney suburb who enjoys reading, travelling and gardening. But often, in my dreams, I am being chased by soldiers or hanging off the side of a cliff, unable to save myself. It has taken me a long time not to panic when I hear a helicopter overhead.   I rarely discuss my past. Some people cannot believe that someone with my grounded life could have done such things. Others probe deeper, asking if I regret picking up a gun with the intention of killing others. Of course, some will never understand; others may consider me a former terrorist.   The world has changed since I left the Tigers, just as the Tigers themselves have changed. In this age of terrorism it is easy to dismiss all rebel groups as evil extremists, without considering the desperate circumstances that drive people to align themselves to such organisations.   I tell people that the only reason I joined the war was to defend my people, because I felt there was no other choice. I was not coerced to join the insurgency. As an idealistic 17-year-old, I believed in the power of the individual to make a difference.   Looking back, I recognise the elements of reckless, selfish teenage rebellion in my behaviour. Naively, I had not anticipated how much my family would suffer as a consequence of my actions, and for that, above all else, I am deeply sorry. To this day, my parents have never asked me about my time as a guerrilla. As a mother myself, I understand why: that they must somehow have felt that they had failed in their duty as parents.   I hope that my own children will grow up with firm, positive views, but without the blind idealism I had all those years ago. I will try to teach them tolerance and empathy, that the end doesn't always justify the means, and that violence always breeds more violence. I learnt that lesson the hard way. Sadly, I don't think Sri Lanka has learnt it at all.   http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/srilanka/5283438/Life-as-a-female-Tamil-Tiger-guerilla-relived-by-one-of-first-female-soldiers.html   From aliens at dataone.in Tue May 12 16:48:52 2009 From: aliens at dataone.in (bipin) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 16:48:52 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] APJ letter Message-ID: <000801c9d2f3$6ff1c010$0201a8c0@limo> A Letter to Every Indian - APJ DR. A. P. J. Abdul Kalam 's Speech in Hyderabad . Why is the media here so negative? Why are we in India so embarrassed to recognize our own strengths, our achievements? We are such a great nation. We have so many amazing success stories but we refuse to acknowledge them. Why? We are the first in milk production. We are number one in Remote sensing satellites. We are the second largest producer of wheat. We are the second largest producer of rice. Look at Dr. Sudarshan , he has transferred the tribal village into a self-sustaining, self-driving unit. There are millions of such achievements but our media is only obsessed in the bad news and failures and disasters. I was in Tel Aviv once and I was reading the Israeli newspaper. It was the day after a lot of attacks and bombardments and deaths had taken place. The Hamas had struck. But the front page of the newspaper had the picture of a Jewish gentleman who in five years had transformed his desert into an orchid and a granary. It was this inspiring picture that everyone woke up to. The gory details of killings, bombardments, deaths, were inside in the newspaper, buried among other news. In India we only read about death, sickness, terrorism, crime.. Why are we so NEGATIVE? Another question: Why are we, as a nation so obsessed with foreign things? We want foreign T.Vs, we want foreign shirts. We want foreign technology. Why this obsession with everything imported. Do we not realize that self-respect comes with self-reliance? I was in Hyderabad giving this lecture, when a 14 year old girl asked me for my autograph. I asked her what her goal in life is. She replied: I want to live in a developed India .. For her, you and I will have to build this developed India . You must proclaim. India is not an under-developed nation; it is a highly developed nation. Do you have 10 minutes? Allow me to come back with a vengeance. Got 10 minutes for your country? If yes, then read; otherwise, choice is yours. YOU say that our government is inefficient. YOU say that our laws are too old. YOU say that the municipality does not pick up the garbage. YOU say that the phones don't work, the railways are a joke. The airline is the worst in the world, mails never reach their destination. YOU say that our country has been fed to the dogs and is the absolute pits. YOU say, say and say. What do YOU do about it? Take a person on his way to Singapore . Give him a name - 'YOURS'. Give him a face - 'YOURS'. YOU walk out of the airport and you are at your International best. In Singapore you don't throw cigarette butts on the roads or eat in the stores. YOU are as proud of their Underground links as they are. You pay $5 (approx. Rs. 60) to drive through Orchard Road (equivalent of Mahim Causeway or Pedder Road) between 5 PM and 8 PM. YOU come back to the parking lot to punch your parking ticket if you have over stayed in a restaurant or a shopping mall irrespective of your status identity. In Singapore you don't say anything, DO YOU? YOU wouldn't dare to eat in public during Ramadan, in Dubai . YOU would not dare to go out without your head covered in Jeddah. YOU would not dare to buy an employee of the telephone exchange in London at 10 pounds (Rs.650) a month to, 'see to it that my STD and ISD calls are billed to someone else.'YOU would not dare to speed beyond 55 mph (88 km/h) in Washington and then tell the traffic cop, 'Jaanta hai main kaun hoon (Do you know who I am?). I am so and so's son. Take your two bucks and get lost.' YOU wouldn't chuck an empty coconut shell anywhere other than the garbage pail on the beaches in Australia and New Zealand . Why don't YOU spit Paan on the streets of Tokyo ? Why don't YOU use examination jockeys or buy fake certificates in Boston ??? We are still talking of the same YOU. YOU who can respect and conform to a foreign system in other countries but cannot in your own. You who will throw papers and cigarettes on the road the moment you touch Indian ground. If you can be an involved and appreciative citizen in an alien country, why cannot you be the same here in India ? In America every dog owner has to clean up after his pet has done the job. Same in Japan . Will the Indian citizen do that here?' He's right. We go to the polls to choose a government and after that forfeit all responsibility. We sit back wanting to be pampered and expect the government to d! o everything for us whilst our contribution is totally negative. We expect the government to clean up but we are not going to stop chucking garbage all over the place nor are we going to stop to pick a up a stray piece of paper and throw it in the bin. We expect the railways to provide clean bathrooms but we are not going to learn the proper use of bathrooms. We want Indian Airlines and Air India to provide the best of food and toiletries but we are not going to stop pilfering at the least opportunity. This applies even to the staff who is known not to pass on the service to the public. When it comes to burning social issues like those related to women, dowry, girl child! and others, we make loud drawing room protestations and continue to do the reverse at home. Our excu! se? 'It's the whole system which has to change, how will it matter if I alone forego my sons' rights to a dowry.' So who's going to change the system? What does a system consist of? Very conveniently for us it consists of our neighbours, other households, other cities, other communities and the government. But definitely not me and YOU.. When it comes to us actually making a positive contribution to the system we lock ourselves along with our families into a safe cocoon and look into the distance at countries far away and wait for a Mr.Clean to come along & work miracles for us with a majestic sweep of his hand or we leave the country and run away. Like lazy cowards hounded by our fears we run to America to bask in their glory and praise their system. When New York becomes insecure we run to England . When England experiences unemployment, we take the next flight out to the Gulf. When the Gulf is war struck, we demand to be rescued and brought home by the Indian government. Everybody is out to abuse and rape the country. Nobody think! s of feeding the system. Our conscience is mortgaged to money. Dear Indians, The article is highly thought inductive, calls for a great deal of introspection and pricks one's conscience too... I am echoing J. F. Kennedy's words to his fellow Americans to relate to Indians... 'ASK WHAT WE CAN DO FOR INDIA AND DO WHAT HAS TO BE DONE TO MAKE INDIA WHAT AMERICA AND OTHER WESTERN COUNTRIES ARE TODAY' Lets do what India needs from us. Forward this mail to each Indian for a change instead of sending Jokes or junk mails. Thank you, Dr. Abdul Kalam Above speech of Dr APJ is to develop self discipline only which i have insisted in my earlier posts and analysis. thanks Bipin From anivar.aravind at gmail.com Tue May 12 16:58:44 2009 From: anivar.aravind at gmail.com (Anivar Aravind) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 16:58:44 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] May 14: Global Protests for the release of Binayak sen. New Articles & Updates Message-ID: <35f96d470905120428t107be1e4xbf9df450246cedfe@mail.gmail.com> --Circulate Widely -- Dear Friends, Dr Sen’s case is representative of the major failings of the Indian state, be it democracy, development or speedy justice. May 14th marks 2nd anniversary of Dr. Sen's Unjust arrest. Binayaksen.net Compiled a list of protests happening in various parts of the world. Find protest in your area at http://bit.ly/p76Qy This list contains 22 events in India, 3 in UK, 8 in US, 1 in Germany and - Hide quoted text - facebook event Join protests in your area for the release of Dr. Sen http://www.binayaksen.net/actions/ ---------- New Articles # NO COUNTRY FOR THE BRAVE : The dark heart within the glory of Indian democracy -- From Telegraph Calcutta http://bit.ly/fEZQX # Sen and the art of development: CP Surendran in Open magazine http://bit.ly/11rjgj # Indian paediatrician has been two years in prison without trial: British Medical Journal http://bit.ly/gk4tt # Committee of Concerned Scientists demand immediate release of Binayak Sen Committee of Concerned Scientists (CCS), an independent international organization devoted to the protection and advancement of human rights and scientific freedom of scientists, physicians, and scholars wrote to Indian governement demanding urgent medical care & Immediate Release of Dr. Binayaksen http://www.binayaksen.net/2009/05/ccs-demands/ ----------- Announcements # UK: Demonstration outside Indian High Commission on May 14th http://bit.ly/sNSjb # New Delhi: Invitation to Two Years, Too Much ! An Evening of Protest May 14, 2009 Thursday 5.30 p.m. onwards At The Lawns of Rabindra Bhawan, Mandi House, Copernicus Marg, New Delhi Details : http://www.binayaksen.net/2009/05/delhi-announcement/ #Chennai:Cycle Rally , Pamphleteering and Public Event http://bit.ly/C0Pzs # Pune: Protest March to BJP office on 14th May to Demand Binayak Sen’s Release http://bit.ly/dnCSn # GLOBAL PROTEST - 14 MAY 2009 - A Reminder http://bit.ly/RC6H9 # Kerala-Committee for Release of Political prisoners(CRPP) Association with Mionority Rights Watch conducting evening Dharna at Trivandrum: Contact: minoritywatch at gmail.com # Solidarity Banners From Amnesty Italy http://www.binayaksen.net/2009/05/solidarity-msg-from-amnesty-italy/ -- Anivar Aravind http://binayaksen.net Follow on Twitter : http://twitter.com/binayaksen "The resources of the world are for us all to share. Let us affirm our faith in that common cause" - Dr. Ilina Sen From kokopeli at gmail.com Tue May 12 17:39:29 2009 From: kokopeli at gmail.com (Sujata & Samantak) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 17:39:29 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] May 14: Global Protests for the release of Binayak sen. New Articles & Updates In-Reply-To: <35f96d470905120428t107be1e4xbf9df450246cedfe@mail.gmail.com> References: <35f96d470905120428t107be1e4xbf9df450246cedfe@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <556b1d6b0905120509y5e35a69dv654807a0f430c318@mail.gmail.com> There will be a meeting from 4 pm onwards at Jadavpur University, Kolkata, in front of Worldview Bookstore on the university campus, to express solidarity with Dr. Binayak Sen and his family and protest against his unjust incarceration. Everybody welcome. Perhaps you could put this up on the site. Thanks. Samantak Das 2009/5/12 Anivar Aravind > --Circulate Widely -- > > Dear Friends, > > Dr Sen’s case is representative of the major failings > of the Indian state, be it democracy, development or speedy justice. > May 14th marks 2nd anniversary of Dr. Sen's Unjust arrest. > Binayaksen.net Compiled a list of protests happening in various parts > of the world. Find protest in your area at http://bit.ly/p76Qy This > list contains 22 events in India, 3 in UK, 8 in US, 1 in Germany and > - Hide quoted text - > facebook event > > Join protests in your area for the release of Dr. Sen > http://www.binayaksen.net/actions/ > > ---------- > New Articles > > # NO COUNTRY FOR THE BRAVE : The dark heart within the glory of Indian > democracy -- From Telegraph Calcutta http://bit.ly/fEZQX > > # Sen and the art of development: CP Surendran in Open magazine > http://bit.ly/11rjgj > > # Indian paediatrician has been two years in prison without trial: > British Medical Journal http://bit.ly/gk4tt > > # Committee of Concerned Scientists demand immediate release of Binayak Sen > > Committee of Concerned Scientists (CCS), an independent international > organization devoted to the protection and advancement of human rights > and scientific freedom of scientists, physicians, and scholars wrote > to Indian governement demanding urgent medical care & Immediate > Release of Dr. Binayaksen > > http://www.binayaksen.net/2009/05/ccs-demands/ > > ----------- > Announcements > > # UK: Demonstration outside Indian High Commission on May 14th > http://bit.ly/sNSjb > > # New Delhi: Invitation to Two Years, Too Much ! An Evening of Protest > May 14, 2009 Thursday > 5.30 p.m. onwards > At > The Lawns of Rabindra Bhawan, Mandi House, Copernicus Marg, New Delhi > Details : http://www.binayaksen.net/2009/05/delhi-announcement/ > > #Chennai:Cycle Rally , Pamphleteering and Public Event http://bit.ly/C0Pzs > > # Pune: Protest March to BJP office on 14th May to Demand Binayak > Sen’s Release http://bit.ly/dnCSn > > # GLOBAL PROTEST - 14 MAY 2009 - A Reminder http://bit.ly/RC6H9 > > # Kerala-Committee for Release of Political prisoners(CRPP) > Association with Mionority Rights Watch conducting evening Dharna at > Trivandrum: Contact: minoritywatch at gmail.com > > # Solidarity Banners From Amnesty Italy > http://www.binayaksen.net/2009/05/solidarity-msg-from-amnesty-italy/ > > -- > Anivar Aravind > http://binayaksen.net > Follow on Twitter : http://twitter.com/binayaksen > > > "The resources of the world are for us all to share. Let us affirm our > faith in that common cause" - Dr. Ilina Sen > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rahul_capri at yahoo.com Tue May 12 21:00:39 2009 From: rahul_capri at yahoo.com (Rahul Asthana) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 08:30:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] The Role of Nuclear Weapons in International Politics: A Strategic Perspective Message-ID: <475234.74554.qm@web53601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> http://www.fpri.org/footnotes/1405.200905.ross.nuclearweaponsintlpolitics.html From faiz.outsider at gmail.com Tue May 12 21:29:45 2009 From: faiz.outsider at gmail.com (faiz ullah) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 21:29:45 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Strike Message-ID: <96c0bb200905120859l7b19eddanc08e19b69e22fbd9@mail.gmail.com> Hi, Instances of strike in India have been coming down year after year. About 800 in '94, 250 in '04 and about 170 in the 2008. What could be the factors? Is it because there's growing insecurity amongst workers, given that a lot of companies are using recession as an alibi to put more pressure on their workers? But this is more recent. Have trade unions become weaker? Or things have simply been getting better? " Nestle strike creates fear in other factories" http://www.business-standard.com/india/storypage.php?autono=357625 Was eating Maggi...and wondering if this strike is going to have a ripple effect as this report speculates. Also, reporting in businees news media always plays up words like 'trouble' and 'militancy'. Why aren't labour issues part of the agneda...aren't they a part of the 'business'? 'Labour militancy back in India?' http://www.rediff.com/money/2006/jan/12guest.htm "They say Japanese managements have hardly made any effort to learn how to deal with India's highly politicised unions, which traditionally take an anti-management stance for their survival. In Japan, the culture is completely different. For instance, the relationship between a labour union and the company management is generally very close in Japan." Workers must be really happy with their employers in Japan then! Faiz From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Tue May 12 22:06:03 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 22:06:03 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] APJ letter In-Reply-To: <000801c9d2f3$6ff1c010$0201a8c0@limo> References: <000801c9d2f3$6ff1c010$0201a8c0@limo> Message-ID: Dear Bipin (and all) I agree and yet also not agree with what Mr. Kalam has said in the above speech. Let me elaborate on what I agree and on what I don't agree. Kalam jee was chosen the president by the BJP, and ironically also has views which are also very closely related to the BJP's views on how the people of India should be: hardcore nationalists. I can understand that in today's times, nation-states are a reality (or state-nation in case of India if I may say so), which can not be washed away. However, this does not mean that we should go around being nationalists. Nationalism is not going to solve the problems of our people (by this I mean the people of our nation/state here). I agree with Kalam jee when he says that Indians tend to crib about things rather than doing something about it. And that is one of the reasons I personally believe that the present elections, the idea of exhorting middle classes to just go out and vote is of no use, particularly since voting in itself is no end. It is just one of the means to achieve the end, which is development. And all these campaigns don't focus on educating our citizens to actually make the politicians more accountable, the system more accountable, the bureaucrats and the judiciary more accountable. Hence, even if the voting is 100%, it's useless. He is also right, that let us start doing things rather than chitchatting among ourselves. Equally the view that people should first set themselves as example before exhorting others is equally true. However, unlike him, I don't wish to do this to make India a strong nation or a superpower. Far from it. I want to do this because it would ultimatley help the people of India. We have all seen what a superpower is, in the form of America. We have seen how since 2000 to 2008, it has misused whatever the power it had, right from the response to 11th September 2001, to Bush's farewell being celebrated as it led to the rise of Obama. We have equally seen the tragedies of a scale unseen in earlier conflicts in Afghanistan and Iraq. And now, the Af-Pak region is more unsafe than it was in 2001 (Don't forget the fact that the real reason it is unsafe is because of the Taliban, another US-ISI creation). And I don't think we are going to be anyhow different from them. The best example is our cricket board, the richest cricket boards out of all in the world (i.e. the nations in which cricket is played). I still remember how during 2008, we had the 'Monkey' controversy, where it was alleged that Harbhajan Singh, one of our cricket players, had called Andrew Symonds, an Australian player 'monkey'. The ironic part is that from what transpired out, it was stated that actually Harbhajan had said 'maa ki' (which means he was abusing Symonds' mother) rather than 'monkey' (him for his looks or may be one can say race). And then, to add to our cricket team's dismay, we had three wrong decisions taken against us. But how did we respond? We had Sharad Pawar, a mainstream politician heading the BCCI then (he still heads now). Under him, the BCCI stated that we will come back off the tour if the decision is not taken to our satisfaction. Nobody has ever blackmailed the ICC for this. What's more, we asked the umpires to be changed. Never before in a test match series has this ever happened. But we all managed this, because we had money. And what's more, the people around me were saying that we are a cricketing superpower, we are the richest board in the world, we can and should do as we please. If this is what we will do as a cricketing superpower, God knows what we can do as a political superpower like say America. Therefore, I am genuinely not interested in seeing India as a superpower which dictates to other nations, loses their trust and friendship, and makes the lives of people across the world that much more difficult. Secondly, since Kalam jee is talking about a developed nation, I think he should equally define development. The reason is that different people have different conceptions of development. And all these have to be taken into consideration before we come to certain conclusions. For me, the development we wish to carry about, with SEZ's and opening up of the economy without looking at its' impact on the rural India and helping the poor and the downtrodden, is of no use and we should stop it, and change or modify it so that all are benefited. It is tough, but certainly it would be better. On a positive note, I agree with his point that we have to look at positivity as well. But that does not mean one neglects issues of injustice, including that injustice being meted out to Palestinians by the Israeli attacks. Positivity is not there because our system is really in a mess and we are not doing a thing about it. I remember Shahrukh Khan from Swades who says ' agar hum sab kehte rahe ki yeh desh barbaad ho jayega, to ek din yeh desh wakai mein barbaad ho jayega. aur is ke zimmedar mai hoonga, aap honge, aap sab, hum sab.' And finally, it is not necessary for every citizen to think what he/she has done for India. In Ashoka and Akbar's rule, there was no India, and yet they helped the people. So, it's the state's responsibility to help its people, for after all it is formed with their support. Regarding their duties, it's to monitor whether the state is giving adequate help or not, ensure adequate help is given at all times, and to modify and change the way that help is required if needed. So therefore, no need for people to think what they have done for India compulsorily, although if someone thinks about it (like Shahrukh in Swades), I am happy. (Not that I am sad if someone doesn't, at least he discharges his duty (or even she), that is fine). Regards Rakesh From anansi1 at earthlink.net Wed May 13 01:05:08 2009 From: anansi1 at earthlink.net (Paul D. Miller) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 15:35:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Will Pakistan become Obama's Vietnam? Message-ID: <4550918.1242156909601.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net> I just thought I'd pass this along. Oh, and the wiki for the MQ-1 Predator Drones being used on the border between Afghanistan and Pakistan. Quite impressive technology! Paul/Dj Spooky General Atomics MQ-1 Predator Drone: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MQ-1_Predator http://www.truthout.org/051209A?n Will Pakistan Become Obama's Vietnam? Tuesday 12 May 2009 By Steve Weissman "Stop the Taliban now - or we will," cried a recent headline in London's Sunday Times. The "we" was the US military, and the discussion took place right after the Pakistani Taliban moved into the Swat Valley, according to a Pakistani official. "The implicit threat - if you don't do it, we may have to - was always there," he said. Was the threat only bluster to put pressure on the Pakistani military to fight the Taliban? Or do President Obama's national security experts think that American troops can win a war in Pakistan? Either way, the emphasis on "we" can only spell disaster. Washington has threatened Pakistan before, leading General Musharraf to believe that the Pentagon would bomb his country back to the Stone Age if he did not support George W. Bush's "War on Terror." Though Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage denied ever making the threat explicit, the menace worked to a point, and the Pakistanis helped American officials get their hands on several terrorist suspects, including Abu Zubaydah and Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. But the American threat never got Pakistan's military to target the Taliban or al-Qaeda in the way that Washington wanted. Nor did Washington get what it wanted with $10 billion in military aid, much of which has disappeared without any proper accounting. Neither carrot nor stick succeeded, and for a simple reason: The Pakistani military saw our enemies as their allies. Al-Qaeda had helped train Pakistani and Arab jihadis to fight against the country's historic rival India, both in disputed Kashmir and within India itself, while the Taliban promised a government in Kabul that was more dependent on Islamabad than on Washington or New Delhi. This thinking was especially strong within the military's Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), many of whose officers felt an ideological kinship with their fellow Moslems in the Taliban. The lesson should be obvious. For all Washington's threats and promises, Pakistani views of their own interests will determine what they will and will not do. If Obama and his advisers fail to take the lesson to heart, a promising presidency could easily fall victim to a military conflict far more costly and divisive than the war in Vietnam. President Obama proclaims America's national interest in preventing the Pakistani Taliban from getting its hands on the country's nuclear weapons, and who could disagree? As Americans, we all have reason to fear that Islamabad's nuclear weapons and radioactive material might fall into the hands of jihadis like those who brought down the twin towers. But, short of bombing Pakistan back to the Stone Age, Washington cannot stop the Pakistani Taliban militarily. Only the Pakistanis can, and we undermine their willingness to do so with our military build-up in neighboring Afghanistan, our drone attacks and commando raids within Pakistan and our threats to fight the Pakistani Taliban ourselves if Islamabad fails to do the job. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton can similarly lecture the Pakistanis on the threat that the Taliban poses to them, but her hyperbole discredits her case. A few thousand Pashtun tribesmen and their allies are not about to take over the country, even if they are only 60 miles from Islamabad. The Pakistani armed forces are much too strong to allow that to happen. But they will never pursue a consistent, well-thought-out struggle against the Taliban until they see the jihadis as a bigger threat than that posed by India or our own foreign intervention. As of now, the generals remain unconvinced, seeing the Taliban as a problem the Americans created and continue to nurture with our military intervention in Afghanistan. Hillary Clinton and Richard Holbrooke can argue against this view. But the most the Pakistani military will do is to fight the Taliban with aerial attacks and indiscriminate shelling, as they are doing in Swat and as they have done sporadically over the last few years. The visible result will be enormous refugee crises, which the Taliban militants knows how to exploit, just as they exploit the country's widespread corruption, unjust courts and appalling lack of basic education and other government services. Less visibly, many officers and soldiers will see Washington pushing them around, lose respect for their leaders and end up siding with the Taliban. The Pakistanis are an intensely nationalistic people, and their nationalism has always been closely entwined with their religious identity and opposition to India. The American military, as outsiders, will only provoke a nationalistic backlash. What, then, should Obama and his advisers do? Begin by doing no harm and stop the overheated rhetoric. Stop the no-win war in Afghanistan and the drone attacks in Pakistan. Work with Islamabad and New Delhi to develop confidence-building measures, especially concerning Kashmir. Work quietly behind the scenes, as Washington did in preventing open conflict between India and Pakistan following the terrorist attack in Mumbai last November. And let Pakistan's civilian government take center stage in using foreign aid to build schools and other projects to improve the everyday lives of ordinary Pakistanis. In other words, a lot less "we" and a lot more understanding that America cannot be the answer to Pakistan's problems. We can help, but we cannot impose our will without creating far more problems than we solve From kokopeli at gmail.com Wed May 13 01:28:37 2009 From: kokopeli at gmail.com (Sujata & Samantak) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 01:28:37 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Dr. Binayak Sen - two years in jail In-Reply-To: <556b1d6b0905111306t73bfda0akf6b36d60992c8a84@mail.gmail.com> References: <556b1d6b0905111306t73bfda0akf6b36d60992c8a84@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <556b1d6b0905121258l6817648clfa55aff5931c8923@mail.gmail.com> Dear All, As you know, on 14 May 2009 Dr. Binayak Sen will complete two years in a Raipur prison on charges of abetting Maoist activity in Chhattisgarh, sedition, and waging war against the State. This committed advocate of civil liberties has spent over three decades in the service of some of the poorest and most neglected people in this country and raised his voice time and again against atrocities in Chhattisgarh in his attempt to uphold the values of our country’s Constitution and democracy. The imprisonment of Dr. Binayak Sen is symbolic of the monstrous injustice and callous violation of democratic values by the state, and it ought to be a matter of shame for all of us, as citizens of an allegedly democratic nation, that a man such as him continues to languish for two years without his accusers having succeeded in producing a shred of evidence that justifies keeping this 58-year-old paediatrician behind bars. I am attaching a fact-sheet that briefly narrates the facts of the Dr. Binayak Sen case. What the fact-sheet does not mention is the recent downturn in Dr. Sen’s health – he is a cardiac patient and all efforts to get him treated at a hospital of his choice have been steadily rebuffed by the state authorities in Chhattisgarh. Several of us, teachers at Jadavpur University, feel that we ought to do something – no matter how small – to express solidarity with Dr. Binayak Sen, and his family, on the second anniversary of his incarceration. Some have asked me, when I have written earlier about Dr. Sen’s case, “What can we do?” Others have asked, “What good will come of whatever we do?” I feel that gathering on 14 May will be our way not only of expressing solidarity but also bearing witness and making it known that we do not in any way condone Dr. Sen’s imprisonment. So, do please come, on Thursday, 14 May 2009 from 4:00 pm onwards, in front of Worldview Bookshop (opposite Milanda’s Canteen). Bring along some poetry which you would like to recite, or a song to sing, bring along a flute or a guitar. Make and bring a few posters, too. Ask your friends, family and neighbours to come. Forward this mail to as many people as you want. Let us try to show that we in Kolkata still care. We will also be collecting contributions for the legal expenses for Dr. Sen’s case. Those wishing to contribute may bring along an AC Payee cheque in the name of “Binayak Sen Support Fund, SBI a/c no. 301810 20786”. This is a fund set up by the doctors of the CMC Vellore Alumni association, and they will send receipts by post if the address provided with the cheque. We will collect all the cheques and courier them together as a gesture of our support. No cash will be accepted. Those who wish to send cheques after may 14th may also send them directly to Dr. P. Zachariah, c/o CMC Alumni Association, Christian Medical College, Vellore 632 002. Warmest regards, Samantak From anansi1 at earthlink.net Wed May 13 05:17:36 2009 From: anansi1 at earthlink.net (Paul D. Miller) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 19:47:36 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [Reader-list] Rana Dasgupta book launch - Delhi Message-ID: <24615170.1242172057382.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net> http://travel.nytimes.com/2009/05/10/travel/10surfacing.html?ref=travel Rana - we'll have to get you to NY sometime! Paul From shuddha at sarai.net Wed May 13 07:13:20 2009 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 07:13:20 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Strike In-Reply-To: <96c0bb200905120859l7b19eddanc08e19b69e22fbd9@mail.gmail.com> References: <96c0bb200905120859l7b19eddanc08e19b69e22fbd9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Strikes, for a very long time in India now, are as much a tool used by managements as by workers. Knowingly, or unknowingly, pliant unions are often compelled to go on strike by management policies, and then the management uses the strike as an excuse to either declare a lock out, or to retrench more workers, or to win a key issue to do with the intensification of the labour process. That this has not been happening so frequently in recent days is an indication of the relative strength that Capital enjoys in India today, vis-a- vis Labour. Management does not need strikes to happen as often as earlier. However, those of us who do remember the intensity of the Hero Honda strike some years ago, will remember that Labour disaffection has not gone away, it has merely been beaten into submission, momentarily. I would wager that the number of strikes has gone down, partly because of labour insecurity, as you point out, but also because the nature of the industrial workforce has changed. A large majority of the workforce in the industrial sector is now 'contract' or 'casual', and these are not only unskilled workers. This pool of workers moves from factory to factory, from enterprise to enterprise, even within regions. Traditional unions are never able to get leverage with this large body of contract workers. They end up trying to protect the positions of the shrinking space of 'permanent' workers, who are increasingly made into pliant tools of the management, because of the ever present threat of job insecurity. Anyone with any experience of industrial areas will be able to tell you, how most (though certainly not all) unions, including the 'politicized' ones, are really thugs purchased by the management to keep the peace, and especially to enforce the kind of threat that keeps all workers, organized and unorganized, in line. And, I am not sure that the history of the Japanese Labour movement could be characterized as having a lack of militancy. While it is true that the severity of the recession has hit Japanese labour hard, and unemployment is at a record high, Japanese labour data, typically does not include 'wildcat' strikes and informal work stoppages, the numbers of which, by all reports are rising. Post war Japan had a huge surge of Labour Militancy, which was sought to be contained through large unions that would do the bidding of the state through a 'corporatist' agenda, but labour militancy in Japan is much higher than is generally thought to be the case, though it is not as high, or as intense as it is in South Korea, or Taiwan. Incidentally, since there is a discussion on labour issues in India on this thread ( a refreshing change from the endless excoriations by the bearers of injured Hindu honour ) people might find it interesting to look at the latest issue of 'Gurgaon Workers News: A Report from the Special Exploitation Zone' which I paste below. I have always found the contents of this newsletter very interesting to read. regards Shuddha ------------------ Gurgaon Workers News - Newsletter 17 (May 2009) full version: www.gurgaonworkersnews.wordpress.com Gurgaon in Haryana is presented as the shining India, a symbol of capitalist success promising a better life for everyone behind the gateway of development. At a first glance the office towers and shopping malls reflect this chimera and even the facades of the garment factories look like three star hotels. Behind the facade, behind the factory walls and in the side streets of the industrial areas thousands of workers keep the rat-race going, producing cars and scooters for the middle-classes which end up in the traffic jam on the new highway between Delhi and Gurgaon. Thousands of young middle class people lose time, energy and academic aspirations on night-shifts in call centres, selling loan schemes to working-class people in the US or pre-paid electricity schemes to the poor in the UK. Next door, thousands of rural-migrant workers uprooted by the agrarian crisis stitch and sew for export, competing with their angry brothers and sisters in Bangladesh or Vietnam. And the rat-race will not stop; on the outskirts of Gurgaon, Asia's biggest Special Economic Zone is in the making. The following newsletter documents some of the developments in and around this miserable boom region. If you want to know more about working and struggling in Gurgaon, if you want more info about or even contribute to this project, please do so via: www.gurgaonworkersnews.wordpress.com gurgaon_workers_news at yahoo.co.uk In the May 2009 issue you can find: 1) Proletarian Experiences - Daily life stories and reports from a workers' perspective *** Auto-biographic story of a 49 years old driver about his experience as a working-class Sikh in Delhi since the 1970s, his experiences as a proletarian militant in a religious organisation, the shock of the anti-Sikh riots, his disillusionments and revelations... The story was told to FMS and published in issue 247, January 2009. In FMS longer stories about the (daily) life of workers are published under the heading "Aap-Ham kya-kya karte hain", asking "So what are you-we doing". The series emphasises the need to talk about ourselves regaining a sense of importance of our experiences and make them heard - against the big noise of the public life of stars, leaders, cooperate identities... *** Math and Wrath of Misery - The workers' reports tell us about average daily wages for workers in modern industries of about 100 Rs. This short note puts this wage in a context of daily expenditures. Followed by a short impression of distributing the Faridabad Majdoor Samaachaar in Gurgaon, Udyog Vihar. *** Long list of short workers' reports about wage and working conditions in Gurgaon factories. The reports are gathered/spread during the monthly distribution of 'Faridabad Majdoor Samaachaar' (Faridabad Workers' News). The reports were gathered/ spread between November 2008 and March 2009. We can see an impact of the economic slump, particularly in the automotive manufacturing sector, where shift hours have been reduced. Alankar Creation Anand Nishikawa (Maruti Suzuki supplier) Bharat Export Bharat International Campari Export Chintu Fashion Condor Dhir International (textiles for GAP) Eastern Medikit Evergreen International Femme Highfashion Garments Gaurav International (textiles for GAP) GOM Export Grafty Export Gulati Export Instyle Krishna Label Lara Exports Logwell Forge (Maruti Suzuki supplier) Mass Enterprise Mag Filter (Maruti Suzuki supplier) Mod Syrup Industries Modelama (textiles for GAP) Modern Lace House MY Fashion Omega Design Orient Clothing Pearl Global Premium Moulding and Pressing Richa and Company Richa Global Ridhima Export Radnik Export Rangi International Rolex Auto Sargam Export S&R Export Shahi Exports (Faridabad: GAP, Old Navy, Target, Spirit and Hugo Boss) Spark Viva Global Winter Wear *** Proletarian Poverty and Common Wealth Games - After a deadly work accident on the huge Common Wealth Games construction site in Delhi workers struck and destroyed company property. The accident was just the last straw - the general working-conditions are bad enough and the credit and profit squeezed construction companies (see short summary) have to pass the squeeze on to the workers. People's Union for Democratic Rights has just published a report on the conditions on the site: http://www.pudr.org/index.php? option=com_docman&task=doc_details&Itemid=63&gid=179 *** Another fatal factory fire - On 1st of May 2009 the Lakhani shoe factory in Faridabad Sector-24 caught fire, six workers were killed, 30 more were injured severely. According to workers, a blast in the boiler next to the basement of the two-storey factory caused the fire. The police claim that the factory owner has disappeared. 2) Collective Action - Reports on proletarian struggles in the area *** Tecumseh Workers' Report about re-structuring process and workers' resistance at Tecumseh compressor manufacturing factory, formerly belonging to the multi-national Whirlpool. 3) According to Plan - General information on the development of the region or on certain company policies *** Real Estate of Crisis in Gurgaon - Short summary about current real estate crisis in Gurgaon. The gold rush is over, the makers of neo-liberal bubble-town Gurgaon leave behind concrete-steel skeletons, tomb-stones of their unfinished business. *** Security Fears - Private-Public Re-armament in Gurgaon. One of the main real estate developers DLF now ventures into the boom sector of crisis, profiting from the post-Mumbai-attack upper-middle-class paranoia: in Gurgaon DLF sets up a training camp for it's Terra Force, a security company based on low-paid labour of a migrant-peasant work-force. 4) About the Project - Updates on Gurgaon Workers News *** Glossary Updated version of the Glossary: things that you always wanted to know, but could never be bothered to google. Now even in alphabetical order. On 12-May-09, at 9:29 PM, faiz ullah wrote: > Hi, > > Instances of strike in India have been coming down year after year. > About > 800 in '94, 250 in '04 and about 170 in the 2008. What could be the > factors? > Is it because there's growing insecurity amongst workers, given > that a lot > of companies are using recession as an alibi to put more pressure > on their > workers? But this is more recent. Have trade unions become weaker? > Or things > have simply been getting better? > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From shuddha at sarai.net Wed May 13 07:33:23 2009 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 07:33:23 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Ashis Nandy on Terrorism Message-ID: <2652E3E8-12BC-4CA6-AB29-AF8012F31E9C@sarai.net> Dear All, I am forwarding below, an essay by Ashis Nandy on Terrorism, which appeared in 'The Little Magazine' (issue on 'Security') recently. While I think that some of the generalizations contained within it may be a little too broad, I do think that there is much that is thoughtful and incisive in this essay. I do hope that it can generate some reflection, and less loose talk, on a topic as serious as the presence of terror in our lives today. regards Shuddha ------------------- Narcissism and Despair: Ashis Nandy on Terrorism http://www.littlemag.com/security/ashisnandy.html The Little Magazine: Security, Vol VII : issue 3&4 Interpretations of the events of 9/11, 2001, and the diverse political and intellectual responses to them, have oscillated between a concern with the wrath of the disinherited and exploited and the elements of self-destruction built into a hegemonic system. In this essay, I shall focus on the rage of those who feel they have been let down by the present global system and have no future within it. This feeling has been acquiring a particularly dangerous edge in recent times. For the rage often does not have a specific target but it is always looking for one; and regimes and movements that latch on to that free-floating anger can go far. Indeed, once in a while, their targets too have the same kind of need to search for, and find, enemies. The two sides then establish a dyadic bond that binds them in lethal mutual hatred.[1] Six years after the event, it is pretty obvious that this time there has been a narrowing of cognitive and emotional range all around. The global culture of commonsense has come to the conclusion that it is no longer a matter of realpolitik and hard-headed, interest-based use of terror of the kind favoured by the mainstream culture of international relations and diplomacy — as for instance the repeated attempts by the CIA over the last six decades to assassinate recalcitrant rulers hostile to the United States — but a terror that is based on the defiance of rationality and abrogation of self- interest, a terror that is deeply and identifiably cultural. It also seems to insist, to judge by the responses to 9/11, that there are only two ways of looking at this link between terror and culture. One way is to emphasise cultural stereotypes and how they hamper intercultural and interreligious amity. This emphasis presumes that the West with its freedoms — political and sexual — and its lifestyle, identified in the popular imagination by consumerism and individualism, has come to look like a form of Satanism in many millennial movements, particularly in those flourishing in Islamic cultures. Multiculturalism and intercultural dialogue are seen as natural, if long-term, antidotes to such deadly stereotypes. So is, in the short run, ‘firm’ international policing. The other way is to locate the problem in the worldview and theology of specific cultures. What look like stereotypes or essentialisations in the former approach are seen as expressions of the natural political self of such cultures in the latter. At the moment, Islam looks like the prime carrier of such a political self but some other cultures are not far behind. The American senator who ridiculed those who wore diapers on their heads did not have in mind only the Muslims; nor did the American motorist who, when caught while trying to run over a woman clad in a sari, declared that he was only doing his patriotic duty after 9/11. The first way — that of multiculturalism and intercultural dialogue — is of course seen as a soft option, the second as too harsh. However, the second has in the short run looked to many like a viable basis for public policy and political action. The reason is obvious. Terror has been an instrument of statecraft, diplomacy and political advocacy for centuries. To see it as a new entrant in the global marketplace of politics is to shut one’s eyes to the deep human propensity to hitch terror to organised, ideology-led political praxis. Robespierre said — on behalf of all revolutionaries, I guess — that without terror, virtue was helpless. Terror, he went on to claim, was virtue itself. This propensity has also enjoyed a certain ‘natural’ legitimacy in the dominant global culture of public life when it comes to the serious business of international relations. Despite recent pretensions, in international politics violence does not have to be justified; only non-violence has to be justified. The mainstream global culture of statecraft insists that the true antidote to terror is counter-terror. In that respect, the killers who struck at New York on 9/11 and the regimes that claim absolute moral superiority over them share some common values. Both believe that when it comes to Satanic others, all terror is justified as long as it is counter-terror and interpreted as retributive justice. Both look like belated products of the twentieth century, which in retrospect looks like a century of terrorism and its natural accompaniment, collateral damage. Guernica, Hamburg, Dresden, Nanking, Tokyo, Hiroshima and Nagasaki are all formidable names in the history of terror and counter-terror, used systematically as political and strategic weapons. On a smaller scale, the same story of attempts to hitch terror to virtue and to statecraft has been repeated in a wide range of situations — from Jallianwalla Bagh to Lidice and from Sharpeville to Mi Lai. The culpable states were sometimes autocratic, sometimes democratic. Liberal democracy has not often been a good antidote against state terror unleashed by its protagonists. Few are now surprised that some of the iconic defenders of democracy, such as Winston Churchill, were as committed to terror as Robespierre was. Churchill was not only a co-discoverer of the concept of area bombing, as opposed to strategic bombing, he also did not intercede when supplied with evidence, including aerial photographs, of Nazi death camps. Hence also the widespread tendency to dismiss all talk of fighting terror without recourse to counter-terror as romantic hogwash. It is a basic tenet of the mainstream global culture of politics that only the fear of counter-terror dissuades terrorists from walking their chosen path. Hence also the admiration for the terrorism-fighting skills of a country like Israel in states like Sri Lanka and India and the pathetic attempts of such admirers to use Israeli ‘expertise’, forgetting that Israel has been fighting terror with terror for more than fifty years without success. All that the Israeli state can really take credit for is that, in a classic instance of identifying with its historic oppressors, it has succeeded in turning terrorism into a chronic ailment within the boundaries of the Israeli state, in the process brutalising its own politics and turning many of its citizens into fanatics and racists. Into this atmosphere has entered a new genre of terrorists during the last few years in Palestine, Sri Lanka, India and now the United States. These are terrorists who come in the form of suicide bombers and suicide squads. They come prepared to die and, therefore, are personally and, one might add, automatically immune to the fear of counter-terrorism. Actually, they usually view counter-terrorism — and the reaction it unleashes — as a useful device for mobilisation and polarisation of opinion.[2] This is one thing that the hedonic, death-denying, self-interest-based, individualistic culture of the globalised middle classes just cannot handle. It looks like an unwanted war declared by the death-defying on the death-denying. What kind of person are you if you do not want to keep any options open for enjoying or even seeing the future you are fighting for? What kind of person are you if you do not care what happens to your family, neighbourhood or community in the backlash? To the civilised modern citizen, such suicidal activism looks like the negation of civilisation and the ultimate instance of savagery, apart from being utterly irrational and perhaps even psychotic. In the nervous, heated discussions about the kamikaze nearly fifty years ago, they often appeared like strange, subhuman adventurers and carriers of collective pathologies, driven by their feudal allegiances and unable to distinguish life from death or good from evil. Recent discussions of the suicide bombers of Hamas, Tamil Tigers of Sri Lanka and Al Qaeda and Jaish-e-Mohammed in Pakistan and Kashmir invoke the same kind of imageries and fantasies. Hence, probably, the abortive attempts to rename suicide bombings as homicide bombings. They invoke such imageries and fantasies because the modern world is always at a loss to figure out how to deter somebody who is already determined to die. For most of us, this kind of passion has no place in normal life; it can be only grudgingly accommodated in textbooks of psychiatry as a combination of criminal insanity and insane self-destructiveness. Outside the modern world too, few call it self-sacrifice. For unlike the freedom fighters of India and Ireland who fasted to death during the colonial period as an act of protest and defiance of their rulers, the self-sacrifice of the suicide bombers also includes the sacrifice of unwilling, innocent others, what the civilised world has learnt to euphemistically call unavoidable collateral damage. Yet, the key cultural-psychological feature of today’s suicide bombers and suicide squads, despair, is not unknown to the moderns. Indeed, the idea of despair has become central to our understanding of contemporary subjectivities and we also acknowledge that it has shaped some of the greatest creative endeavours in the arts and some of the most ambitious forays in social thought in our times. Van Gogh cannot be understood without invoking the idea of despair, nor can Friedrich Nietzsche. So powerful has been the explanatory power of the idea of despair that recently Harsha Dehejia, an Indian art historian, has tried to introduce the concept in the Indian classical theory of art — by extending Bharata’s theory of rasas itself — as an analytic device. Dehejia feels that without recourse to this construct, we just cannot fathom contemporary Indian art.[3] One suspects that the desperation one sees in the self-destruction of the new breed of terrorists is the obverse of the same sense of despair that underpins so much of contemporary creativity. Only, this new despair expresses itself in strange and alien ways because the cultures from which it comes are not only defeated but have remained mostly invisible and inaudible. Indeed, their sense of desperation may have come not so much from defeat or economic deprivation but from invisibility and inaudibility.[4] Of the 18 people identified as members of the suicide squad that struck on 9/11, 15 have been identified as Saudis. They come from a prosperous society where dissent in any form is not permitted, where political conformity and silence are demanded and extracted through either state terror or the fear of it. It can be argued that by underwriting the Saudi regime, which also presides over Islam’s holiest sites and has acquired an undeserved reputation in many circles as a prototypical if not exemplary Islamic state, the United States has helped identify itself as the major source of the sense of desperation that the killers nurtured within them. Violence of the kind we saw on 9/11, Johan Galtung and Dietrich Fischer argue, presumes “a very high level of dehumanisation of the victims in the minds of aggressors.”[5] That dehumanisation does not happen in a day, nor can it be conveniently explained away as unprovoked. Fareed Zakaria of Newsweek and Stephen Schwarz of Spectator have drawn attention to the denominational loyalties of the 18 terrorists. They were Wahhabis, given to an aggressively puritanical form of Islamic revivalist ideology. But all Wahhabis do not turn as aggressive as the Saudi, Palestinian, Pakistani and Pashtun Wahhabis have sometimes done, and certainly all of them do not become suicide bombers. Who does or does not is the question we face. The answer to that question, we may find out in the coming years, lies not in the ethnic origins or religious connections of terrorism but in the fear of cultures that encourage us not to acknowledge the sense of desperation, if not despair, that is today crystallising outside the peripheries of the known world. It is the adhesive in the new bonding between terror and culture. This desperation may not always be preceded by Nietzschean theocide but it is accompanied by a feeling that God may not be dead but he has surely gone deaf and blind. The Palestinian situation is only one part of the story. The present global political economy has for the first time become almost totally oblivious to the fact that the unprecedented prosperity and technological optimism in some countries have as their underside the utter penury and hopelessness of the many, accompanied by collapse of life support systems due to ecological devastation.[6] Nothing I have come across reveals the nature of this nihilistic, suicidal despair in some parts of the globe better than the following extract from a journalist’s story. I request the reader to go through it, despite its length: Aman [Brigadier Amanullah, secretary to Benazir Bhutto and former chief of Pakistan’s military intelligence in Sind, bordering India] noticed me looking at the painting and followed my gaze. … “A rocket ship heading to the moon?” I asked. “No,” he said. “A nuclear warhead heading to India.” I thought he was making a joke. … I told Aman that I was disturbed by the ease with which Pakistanis talk of nuclear war with India. Aman shook his head. “No,” he said matter-of-factly. “This should happen. We should use the bomb.” “For what purpose?” He didn’t seem to understand my question. “In retaliation?” I asked. “Why not?” “Or first strike?” “Why not?” I looked for a sign of irony. None was visible… “We should fire at them and take out a few of their cities — Delhi, Bombay, Calcutta,” he said. “They should fire back and take Karachi and Lahore. Kill off a hundred or two hundred million people… and it would all be over. They have acted so badly toward us; they have been so mean. We should teach them a lesson. It would teach all of us a lesson. There is no future here, and we need to start over. So many people think this. Have you been to the villages of Pakistan, the interior? There is nothing but dire poverty and pain. The children have no education; there is nothing to look forward to. Go into the villages, see the poverty. There is no drinking water. Small children without shoes walk miles for a drink of water. I go to the villages and I want to cry. My children have no future. None of the children of Pakistan have a future. We are surrounded by nothing but war and suffering…”[7] In the bonding between terror and culture, a subsidiary role has been played by the perception that all strange cultures are potentially dangerous and sources of violence, and that multiculturalism is only a means of organising or confederating those cultures that approximate or are compatible with the global middle-class culture — cultures that can be safely consumed in the form of ethnic food, arts, museumised artefacts, anthropological subjects or, as is happening in the case of Buddhism and Hinduism, packaged ethnic theories of salvation. The tacit solipsism of Islamic terrorism and its ability to hijack some of Islam’s most sacred symbols is matched by the narcissism of America’s policy elite that finds expression in an optimism that is almost manic. At the same time, for a large majority of the world, all rights to diverse visions of the future — all utopian thinking and all indigenous visions of a good society — are being subverted by the globally dominant knowledge systems and a globally accessible media as instances of either romantic, other-worldly illusions or as brazen exercises in revivalism. The Southern world’s future now, by definition, is nothing other than an edited version of the contemporary North’s. What Europe and North America are today, the folklore of the globalised middle class claims, the rest of the world will become tomorrow. Once visions of the future are thus stolen, the resulting vacuum has to be filled by available forms of millennialism, some of them perfectly compatible with the various editions of fundamentalism floating around the global marketplace of ideas today. In the liminal world of the marginalised and the muted, desperation and millennialism often define violence as a necessary means of exorcism. September 11, Gandhian activist-scholar Rajiv Vora and the Swarajpeeth initiative have recently reminded us, was the day Satyagraha, militant non-violence, was born in Johannesburg in 1906. South Africa at the time was a proudly authoritarian, racist police state, not at all like British India, presided over by an allegedly benign, liberal colonial regime that, some votaries of political realism assure us, ensured the success of Gandhi’s non-violence. Does this coincidence have something to tell us? One way of understanding the recent changes in the global culture of protest is to offset the despair-driven, suicidal forms of terror against the self-destructive defiance and subversion of authorities, as in the case of the Irish hunger-strikers, whom we have already mentioned. The other way is to compare the new culture of terror with the no less religious, militant nonviolence of a community known all over the globe today for its alleged weakness for religion-based terror in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Pathans, known for their martial valour and officially declared a martial race by British India in the nineteenth century, have virtually been turned into official symbols of mindless violence. Yet, in India at least, till quite recently they were also the symbols of the non-violence of the courageous and the truly martial. They had been the finest exponents of the art of Gandhian militant non-violence, directed against the British imperial regime in the 1930s.[9] The Pathans who participated in that struggle were exactly the community that has in the last decade produced the Taliban and played host to Osama bin Laden and his entourage. Can this discrepancy or change be explained away only as a result of the efforts of dedicated fundamentalist clerics, the brutalising consequence of the anti-Soviet struggle in Afghanistan, or the skill and efficiency of Inter Services Intelligence, Pakistan’s version of the Central Intelligence Agency? Or does the contradiction exist in the human personality and Pashtun culture itself?[10] The second possibility cannot be dismissed offhand. The behaviour of ordinary Afghans after the fall of the Taliban regime — in their everyday life and their participation in politics — does not suggest that the Taliban enjoyed decisive support of the people they ruled. Most Afghans seemed genuinely happy to be rid of the harsh, puritanical reign of the Taliban. On the other hand, some of them have obviously helped their guest, bin Laden, and the now-unpopular ruler, Mullah Mohammed Omar, to successfully escape the clutches of the American ground troops. Who is the real Pathan? The one sympathetic or obedient to the Taliban or the one celebrating the Taliban’s fall? The one known for his martial values or the one who in the 1930s turned out to be the most courageous passive resister, who, according to a number of moving accounts of the Non-Cooperation Movement, faced ruthless baton charges by the colonial police but never retaliated and never flinched? The Pathans evidently brought to their nonviolence the same commitment and fervour that the Afghan terrorists are said to have brought to their militancy in Afghanistan and in other hotspots of the world. Are they as ruthless with themselves now as they were in the 1930s, during colonial times? I shall avoid answering these questions directly and instead venture a tentative, open-ended comment to conclude. Most cultures enjoin non- violence or at least seek to reduce the area of violence, and these efforts often go hand in hand with cultural theories of unavoidable violence. Only a few like Sparta and the Third Reich glorify, prioritise or celebrate violence more or less unconditionally as the prime mover in human affairs or as the preferred mode of intervention in the world. In the huge majority of cultures that fall in the first category, violence and non-violence both exist in the same persons as human potentialities. The life experiences that underscore one of the two potentialities are the crucial means of entering the mind of the violent and to understand why the violent actualised one of the potentialities and not the other. The experiences that in our times have contributed to the growth of massive violence can often — though not always — be traced to the collapse of communities and their normative systems. The old is moribund and the new has not yet been born, as the tired cliché goes. In many cases, the powerful and the rich welcomed this collapse because they did not like the norms of other people’s communities. But flawed norms, one guesses, are norms all the same. The resulting flux has psychologically disoriented and sometimes devastated a large section of humankind and generated in them a vague sense of loss, anxiety and anger. They live with a sense of loneliness and a feeling that the work they have to do to earn their living, unlike the vocations they previously had, is degrading and meaningless. Those who do not clearly perceive the hand of any agency in these changes often try to contain their anger through consumerism and immersion in the world of total entertainment. But some do identify an agency, correctly or incorrectly. The contemporary terrorists come from among them. This also means that only by engaging with these experiences can you battle the worldviews or ideologies that organise these experiences into a work-plan for terror. If you are unwilling to negotiate these life experiences, if you consistently deny their existence and legitimacy and the normal human tendency to configure such experiences into something ideologically meaningful, you contribute to and aggravate the sense of desperation and abandonment for many. At least one well-known Palestinian psychiatrist has claimed that in West Asia ‘it is no longer a question of determining who amongst the Palestinian youth are inclined towards suicide bombing. The question is who does not want to be a suicide bomber.’[11] You then push the desperate and the abandoned towards a small, closed world of likeminded people who constitute a ‘pseudo-community’ of those whose rage and frustration are sometimes free-floating but always seeking expression in nihilistic self-destruction masquerading as self-denying martyrdom. NOTES An earlier draft of this paper was presented at a symposium on ‘Edward Said: Speaking Truth to Power,’ organised by the Institute for Research and Development in Humanities, Tarbiyat Modaress University, Tehran University and Center for Dialogue of Civilizations in Tehran, and an expanded version at the Workshop on ‘The Dialogue of Civilizations: Intellectual and Organizational Signposts for the Future’, La Trobe University, Melbourne. 1. Vamik D. Volkan, The Need to Have Enemies and Allies (New York: Jason Aronson, 1988). 2. This is recognised, though in the language of the mainstream, in Michael S. Doran, ‘Somebody Else’s Civil War’, Foreign Affairs, January-February 2002, 81(1), pp. 22-42. 3. Harsha Dehejia with Prem Shankar Jha and Ranjit Hoskote, Despair and Modernity: Reflections from Modern Indian Paintings (Delhi: Motilal Banarsidass, 2000). 4. Partly because American hegemony today is ensured not so much by an army and a ready reserve of about 3.9 million men and an annual expenditure of about 650 billion dollars as by a near-total control over global mass media. 5. Johan Galtung and Dietrich Fischer, ‘The United States, the West and the Rest of the World’, unpublished ms. 6. That is why one of the most thoughtful intellectual responses to September 11, 2001 remains Wendell Berry, ‘In the Presence of Fear’, Resurgence, January-February 2002, (210), pp. 6-8; see also Jonathan Power, ‘For the Arrogance of Power America Now Pays a Terrible Price’, TFF Press Info 127, Transnational Foundation, September 13, 2001. 7. Peter Landesman, ‘The Agenda: A Modest Proposal From the Brigadier: What one Prominent Pakistani thinks his Country should do with its Atomic Weapons’, The Atlantic Monthly, March 2002. 8. Rajiv Vora, ‘11 September: Kaun si aur Kyun’, Unpublished Hindi paper circulated by Swarajpeeth and Nonviolent Peaceforce, New Delhi 2005; and Arshad Qureshi, ‘11 September 1906: Ek Nazar’, unpublished paper circulated by Swarajpeeth and Nonviolent Peaceforce, New Delhi 2005. 9. An ethnographic monograph that nevertheless captures the other self of the Pathan in a moving fashion is Mukulika Banerjee, The Pathan Unarmed: Opposition and Memory in the North West Frontier (Oxford: James Currey, 2000). For a hint that this is not merely dead history but a living memory for many, see Ayesha Khan, ‘Mid-Way to Dandi, Meet Red Shirts’, The Indian Express, March 22, 2005. 10. See an insightful, sensitive discussion of the way the same cultural resources can be used to legitimise and resist terrorism in Bhikhu Parekh, ‘Dialogue with the Terrorists’, in Colonialism, Tradition and Reform: An Analysis of Gandhi’s Political Discourse (Sage, New Delhi, 1989), pp. 139-71. 11. Eyyead Sarraj, quoted in Chandra Muzaffar, ‘Suicide Bombing: Is Another Form of Struggle Possible?’, Just: Commentary, June 2002, 2 (6), p. 1. ------ Ashis Nandy, renowned political psychologist and social theorist, is a leading figure in postcolonial studies and arguably India’s best known intellectual voice of dissent. He is Director of the Centre for the Study of Developing Societies, Delhi. His recent awards include the Fukuoka Asian Culture Prize Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed May 13 07:53:34 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 07:53:34 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?Rajinder_Tiku_Preserves_India=92s_?= =?windows-1252?q?Creative_Traditions_In_Stone?= Message-ID: <6b79f1a70905121923o12ffe83aud52ef437fe464c5f@mail.gmail.com> *Rajinder Tiku Preserves **India**’s Creative Traditions In Stone* *By Dr. Ajay Chrungoo* Rajender Tiku is a famed sculpture artist of Kashmir. His contributions to the art of sculpture has received wide acclaim even at the international level. In recognition of his services, Tiku was recently awarded the prestigious *Pollock Krasner Foundation Grant. *He was invited to International Symposium at Switzerland *(International De Sculptures, Sion) *in 1998 and Israel *(Stone in **Galilee**, International Stone Symposium, Maalot-Tarshiha) *in 2001. He also participated in international exhibitions - *Exhibitions of Sculptures at La-Grenette, Sion, Switzerland (1998), Volume and Form, Singapore, 1998-99, Feuersinne Erden Germany, 2001, Guilin-Yuzi Paradise Contemporary World Sculpture Show, China (2003).* In 1999, Lalit Kala Akademi honoured him with *'Eminent Artist' *award. Tiku has been recipient of National Award for Sculpture (1993), 8th Triennale India (International) Award for Sculpture (1994) and J&K State Award for Sculpture (1978-79). Department of Culture, Ministry of Human Resources awarded him with fellowships (Junior) in 1993-95 and (Senior) in 1997-99. Rajinder Tiku was nominated juror by Lalit Kala Academy, New Delhi in 1998. Since then he has served on jury panel for Exhibitions of Lalit Kala Akademy and J&K Cultural Academy (2000, 2005); for Kalidas Samman (2002, 2004); for Lalit Kala Samman (National Award) 2002; and AIFACS All India Exhibition and Awards, 1999. He has conducted five solo exhibitions - Sculpted Images India Habitat Centre, New Delhi), 2003; Art Heritage (New Delhi) 1990, 1992, 1995, 1998, 2003; and ABC Foundation (Varanasi), 1998. The noted sculptor has participated in prestigious group exhibition in different Cultural centres of India. These include “Only Connect”, The Essence of Life (New Delhi, 2002); Combine voices for the New Century (New Delhi, 2000); Edge of the Century, Art Today (New Delhi, 1998) Major Trends in Indian Contemporary Art (New Delhi, 1997), The Indian Contemporary Art - Post Independence (New Delhi, 1997), Harmony Show (Mumbai, 1996-1997); A Tree In My Life (New Delhi, 1995), Sculpture -95 (New Delhi), 8th & 7th Triennale (New Delhi, 1991 and 1994), Trembling Images, an exhibition of works by Kashmiri Artists (New Delhi, 1991), Bharat Bhawan Biennale (Bhopal, 1990), AIFACS International Exhibition of Graphics, New Delhi and Chandigarh (1983), All India Exhibition of Drawing (Chandigarh), Contemporary Indian Art Exhibition, Jammu 1985. Rajinder Tiku has also been a regular seminarist on Indian Sculpture and has attended International Sculpture Symposiums at Bhopal (2002) and Hyderabad(Shilpam-2002). He took part in International Stone Carving Symposium (Stone-2000) at Baroda and International Sculptors' Symposium at Varanasi(1999). Besides this he spoke at International Sculptors' Symposium organised by IPCL, India at Nagothane (1995), Clay Symposium India at Goa in 1994 and Indo-Japan Symposium on Granite Carving-Baroda (2004). He has been participant in Artists’ Camps at Bhubneshwar (2004), Pune (2003), Port Blair (2003), Jahnor (1998), Surajkund (1998), Gwalior (1996) and All India Sculpture Camp, organised by J&K Cultural Academy, 1980. Tiku’s works adorn many prestigious and public collections e.g. J&K Cultural Akademy, Lalit Kala Akademy, National Gallery of Modern Art (New Delhi); Art Heritage (New Delhi), MP Lalit Kala Academy, Ram Chhatpar Shilp Niyas (Varanasi), City of Sion, Switzerland, City of Maalot - Tarshiha, Israel, beside IPCL India, Jyoti Ltd. Baroda, NTPC, India, Transpek Silox Ltd. Baroda etc. Rajinder Tiku has also flair for writing. His articles have been published in reputed journals like *Lalit Kala Contemporary*, *Art Heritage*and *Kashmir** Sentinel. *He has been practicing and teaching sculpture since 1979 at the Institute of Music and Fine Arts, Jammu. During this period, in his art, he has tried to explore the local possibilities vis-a-vis material and thought. He is working hard to inculcate in his students a sense of affinity for their surroundings and transform the same into a sculptural idiom, that has a global identity but at the same time does not sacrifice the essential individual character. Tiku hails from Wadwan village in Budgam (Kashmir) district. He had his schooling from the local village school and secondary education from SP College, Srinagar. He holds Bachelor's Degree in Science and Law. Tiku received his training in Sculpture from the Instituteof Music and Fine Arts, Srinagar. In formation of his objects, Tiku has used stone, terracotta, ceramics, metals, scrap and their combinations. The forms that have emerged are ambiguous, metamorphic, symbolic or sacred, generating their own place. About his art, Tiku observes, *“Man made shapes attract me much more than the natural ones, especially those which in one or the other way depict traces and signs of transition of time, right on their surfaces. Be it a well-used agricultural implement or an ordinary kitchen knife showing wear and tear. All such things act as visual stimuli, invoking a sense of nostalgia.”* On the significance of sculpture, he remarks, *“Sculpture is a larger phenomenon of which a medium and its execution into a particular form is only a part. To each and every work, there is lot more beyond its medium. Perhaps the beauty in its potential to reveal truth. The potential to work on us and impart meaning to our existence.”* *‘INTERFACE’:* Of late, the noted sculptor has been involved in the project titled *INTERFACE. *Through the *INTERFACE *he has been trying to bring out in a tangible form the seemly intangible aspect of silent and sacred embedded in our tradition. Tiku is of the view that if continuity of India’s ancient civilisation is to be maintained, then its civil society has to realize and rebuild the cultural traditions inherited from ancestors. He quotes Vedanta Siddhant *Rina Triya-the triad of obligations *to drive home his point. In an observation of profound significance, Tiku remarks : *"A society's grasp of its past becomes a source for creativity in the present. It stimulates all forms of contemporary expression allowing the meaning to seep through to the images, shapes and a plethora of other cultural activities. While, looking at this phenomenon of past and present in a continuum, where lines of distinction between historical memories and personal experiences blur if not disappear, we realise an eternal source of knowledge within our ourselves. A source, which energizes us to flow on to be a part and parcel of this continuum”. *Getting inspired from objects ranging from mundane ones located in the immediate surroundings to monuments located in the trajectory of timelessness, Tiku perceives a quantum of images and symbols that seem to usher intellectual and philosophical human endeavours into the realm of universal. *'INTERFACE' *is a project that envisages an expression to sacred within the format of contemporary sculpture. Seven is an auspicious number with spiritual/cosmic connotations. Tiku has chosen seven places/regions - Kashmir, Varanasi, Konark, Rajasthan, Mahabalipuram, Andhra Pradesh and Maharashtra. He proposes to execute seven monumental stone sculptures which in one-way or the other shall project the perceived contemporaneous at these sites. The selection of the places has been made keeping in view the cultural importance of these areas, their potential to inspire and stimulate meaningful work in sculpture along with actual working possibility. This project was conceived by Tiku while he was working at the ancient Khandagiri Caves, Orissa. He attempted to carve a simple pillar, which from a particular point would intensify the visual impact of the site in the feeling of the onlooker. Through a focussed visual study of these sites, he wants to evolve contemporary monuments and invoke the spirit of these sites. His work, *Falling Columns *is an illustration of such an interface with the historical monuments in Kashmir, carved in the local available lime-stone. This 4'x4'x1½' monumental sculpture in a peculiar diagonal disposition is in fact a tribute to the spiritual movement/response/activity that is generated by such timeless movements. Tiku says that using of a similar material and trying to catch on the aspect of mass and movement would generate the intended interface. He is of the view that the display of these sculptures in the vicinity of each monument would relive India’s continuous spiritual creative traditions in particular and those of the rest of the world in generalt **The author heads Panun Kashmir* ** Source: Kashmir Sentinel From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed May 13 07:56:14 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 07:56:14 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] APJ letter In-Reply-To: References: <000801c9d2f3$6ff1c010$0201a8c0@limo> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70905121926i3fbfc338hf36052feb56af3ad@mail.gmail.com> Hello Rakesh , Are your exams over ? Seems so .... :) Pawan On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 10:06 PM, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > Dear Bipin (and all) > > I agree and yet also not agree with what Mr. Kalam has said in the > above speech. Let me elaborate on what I agree and on what I don't > agree. > > Kalam jee was chosen the president by the BJP, and ironically also has > views which are also very closely related to the BJP's views on how > the people of India should be: hardcore nationalists. I can understand > that in today's times, nation-states are a reality (or state-nation in > case of India if I may say so), which can not be washed away. However, > this does not mean that we should go around being nationalists. > Nationalism is not going to solve the problems of our people (by this > I mean the people of our nation/state here). > > I agree with Kalam jee when he says that Indians tend to crib about > things rather than doing something about it. And that is one of the > reasons I personally believe that the present elections, the idea of > exhorting middle classes to just go out and vote is of no use, > particularly since voting in itself is no end. It is just one of the > means to achieve the end, which is development. And all these > campaigns don't focus on educating our citizens to actually make the > politicians more accountable, the system more accountable, the > bureaucrats and the judiciary more accountable. > > Hence, even if the voting is 100%, it's useless. > > He is also right, that let us start doing things rather than > chitchatting among ourselves. Equally the view that people should > first set themselves as example before exhorting others is equally > true. > > However, unlike him, I don't wish to do this to make India a strong > nation or a superpower. Far from it. I want to do this because it > would ultimatley help the people of India. We have all seen what a > superpower is, in the form of America. We have seen how since 2000 to > 2008, it has misused whatever the power it had, right from the > response to 11th September 2001, to Bush's farewell being celebrated > as it led to the rise of Obama. We have equally seen the tragedies of > a scale unseen in earlier conflicts in Afghanistan and Iraq. And now, > the Af-Pak region is more unsafe than it was in 2001 (Don't forget the > fact that the real reason it is unsafe is because of the Taliban, > another US-ISI creation). > > And I don't think we are going to be anyhow different from them. The > best example is our cricket board, the richest cricket boards out of > all in the world (i.e. the nations in which cricket is played). I > still remember how during 2008, we had the 'Monkey' controversy, where > it was alleged that Harbhajan Singh, one of our cricket players, had > called Andrew Symonds, an Australian player 'monkey'. The ironic part > is that from what transpired out, it was stated that actually > Harbhajan had said 'maa ki' (which means he was abusing Symonds' > mother) rather than 'monkey' (him for his looks or may be one can say > race). > > And then, to add to our cricket team's dismay, we had three wrong > decisions taken against us. But how did we respond? > > We had Sharad Pawar, a mainstream politician heading the BCCI then (he > still heads now). Under him, the BCCI stated that we will come back > off the tour if the decision is not taken to our satisfaction. Nobody > has ever blackmailed the ICC for this. What's more, we asked the > umpires to be changed. Never before in a test match series has this > ever happened. But we all managed this, because we had money. And > what's more, the people around me were saying that we are a cricketing > superpower, we are the richest board in the world, we can and should > do as we please. > > If this is what we will do as a cricketing superpower, God knows what > we can do as a political superpower like say America. Therefore, I am > genuinely not interested in seeing India as a superpower which > dictates to other nations, loses their trust and friendship, and makes > the lives of people across the world that much more difficult. > > Secondly, since Kalam jee is talking about a developed nation, I think > he should equally define development. The reason is that different > people have different conceptions of development. And all these have > to be taken into consideration before we come to certain conclusions. > For me, the development we wish to carry about, with SEZ's and opening > up of the economy without looking at its' impact on the rural India > and helping the poor and the downtrodden, is of no use and we should > stop it, and change or modify it so that all are benefited. It is > tough, but certainly it would be better. > > On a positive note, I agree with his point that we have to look at > positivity as well. But that does not mean one neglects issues of > injustice, including that injustice being meted out to Palestinians by > the Israeli attacks. Positivity is not there because our system is > really in a mess and we are not doing a thing about it. I remember > Shahrukh Khan from Swades who says ' agar hum sab kehte rahe ki yeh > desh barbaad ho jayega, to ek din yeh desh wakai mein barbaad ho > jayega. aur is ke zimmedar mai hoonga, aap honge, aap sab, hum sab.' > > And finally, it is not necessary for every citizen to think what > he/she has done for India. In Ashoka and Akbar's rule, there was no > India, and yet they helped the people. So, it's the state's > responsibility to help its people, for after all it is formed with > their support. Regarding their duties, it's to monitor whether the > state is giving adequate help or not, ensure adequate help is given at > all times, and to modify and change the way that help is required if > needed. > > So therefore, no need for people to think what they have done for > India compulsorily, although if someone thinks about it (like Shahrukh > in Swades), I am happy. (Not that I am sad if someone doesn't, at > least he discharges his duty (or even she), that is fine). > > Regards > > Rakesh > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Wed May 13 07:58:18 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 07:58:18 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] APJ letter In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70905121926i3fbfc338hf36052feb56af3ad@mail.gmail.com> References: <000801c9d2f3$6ff1c010$0201a8c0@limo> <6b79f1a70905121926i3fbfc338hf36052feb56af3ad@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Pawan jee They were over on 30th April. And the results have also come out. And hopefully you will also put across your points. Regards Rakesh From shuddha at sarai.net Wed May 13 08:07:04 2009 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 08:07:04 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Arundhati Roy in Karachi Message-ID: Dear All, The Delhi based writer Arundhati Roy has recently been in Karachi, Pakistan at the invitation of civil society organizations and womens rights groups. Here are two reports from Dawn, a Karachi based daily, about meetings she attended (with an organization titled 'Womens Action Forum') and interactions she had. I hope that they will be of interest to people on the list. regards, Shuddha ------------------------------ 1. Arundhati Roy and the WAF By Zubeida Mustafa Wednesday, 13 May, 2009 http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/ pakistan/11-arundhati-roy-and-the-waf--02 ‘WOMEN to reclaim public spaces: a programme of defiance and resistance.’ That is how the Women’s Action Forum defined the meeting it held last Friday to mobilise public opinion against extremism. Although WAF’s concern to protect the space women have created in the public mainstream has been on its agenda for some time, this goal has acquired urgency in the wake of the events in Swat. The Nizam-i-Adl Regulation in Malakand Division has brought people face to face with the ugly reality of the Talibanisation phenomenon in the rural backwaters as well as in modern urban centres. The Karachi meeting was well-attended by WAF’s standards. It is not easy to mobilise women for any cause in this city of multiple identities. The metropolis has a diversity of populations, cultures, languages and economic interests posing a challenge to bring women together on a single platform. Learning from its experience of the lawyers’ movement that had succeeded in uniting the extreme right and centrist political parties and the professionals on a single-point agenda for two years, WAF also decided to make Talibanisation and women the focal issue. That strategy paid off. Women had already been galvanised by the video showing the flogging of a teenaged girl in Swat that activist Samar Minallah courageously brought to the world media’s attention, invoking in the process the wrath of the Taliban whose fatwa declared her as wajibul qatl. The oppression of women is an issue that cuts across classes to touch every female raw nerve. Whether it is the smartly turned-out high-society woman or the working woman who slaves all day long to feed an army of children and a drug-addict husband or even the heavily veiled orthodox woman, each type, with few exceptions, has expressed her horror at the flogging incident. Hence on this occasion WAF managed to bring a diverse crowd together — the activists reaching out to the grassroots such as Amar Sindhu from Sindh University Hyderabad, Parveen Rahman from the Orangi Pilot Project and Sadiqa Salahuddin whose Indus Resource Centre runs schools in the interior of Sindh, as well as the elites sitting side by side with the three van-loads of women from Neelum Colony who clean the homes of the rich and will be starting their adult literacy classes from next week, courtesy Shabina’s Garage School. The variety of speakers focusing on the theme of women’s oppression by the Taliban found a responsive audience. But the question that made many ponder was: what next? Can this interest be sustained? If they had not already started probing for answers, the thought- provoking speech by Arundhati Roy, the renowned Indian writer and activist, did the trick. Coming from New Delhi on a solidarity mission to WAF’s meeting. Roy raised four issues: • What do we mean by the Taliban and what gave birth to them? • Define your own space and do not surrender it. • Don’t allow yourself to be forced into making choices of the ‘with us or against us’ type. • Don’t be selective in your injustices. These should provide food for thought for those struggling against oppression. Without being specific, Roy exhorted her audience to look into the structures and systems that lead to a situation of such extreme oppression, some of which is rooted in the class conflict. She believes one has to take a ‘total view’ of the matter, which she admitted she had come to Pakistan to understand. The fact is that we live in a largely grey area where the lines are not sharply drawn. There is a lot of overlapping between issues touching gender, class, ethnicity, culture, political power and economic gains. It is this reality one has to recognise and see how the contradictions can be addressed. The demand to take sides unambiguously, expressed so vividly in the days following 9/11 by George Bush as ‘You are with us or against us,’ can create a dilemma for people when negotiating these grey areas. Roy’s advice to avoid being ‘with us or against us’ has implications she didn’t elucidate. In times when action is needed and a position has to be taken — even if verbally — inaction or neutrality unwittingly props up the status quo. If the status quo has been created by inimical forces ostensibly now fighting their self-created Frankenstein, where does one go? The practical approach would be to prioritise strategies that can be adapted to changing circumstances. And what should these be? Here Roy has a point when she says that one cannot be selective in the justices one espouses and the injustices one denounces. In this context Pakistanis find themselves trapped between the devil and the deep sea. Attempting to rectify a problem here and another there really doesn’t help because our entire state structure is colonial, as a booklet titled Making Pakistan a Tenable State points out. Produced by 17 intellectuals, with Dr Mubashir Hasan as the driving force, the book describes the state structure as being ‘based on the concentration of political and administrative power in the steel frame of the civil services under the protection of the armed forces. The structure could be defined as feudal-military-bureaucratic.’ The problem is systemic. In a state ruled by ‘a government of the elites, by the elites, for the elites’ it is inevitable that it is authoritarian and exploitative. Change can come when there is mobilisation of the people for change. When WAF mobilises women to fight against injustices it prepares them to also fight for change. The need is to empower them and instill confidence in them. Two women I have written about who are fighting for change come from the poorest of the poor and theirs is not a feminist agenda. They are fighting to have a roof above their heads. One is the wife of Walidad from Muhammad Essa Khaskheli who came all the way to Karachi in the heat of summer to save her goth from being snapped up by a feudal in the neighbourhood. The other is Parveen whose one-room ‘mansion’ in a katchi abadi of Clifton is now under threat of demolition. She is resisting the exploitative system that cannot provide shelter to the poor. Initially she hesitated — was it ‘proper’ for a woman to protest she had asked me. When encouraged she decided it was. These are women on the way to empowerment and that is WAF’s agenda. 2. ‘I’m here to understand what you mean by Taliban’ by Salman Siddiqui Friday, 08 May, 2009 http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/ pakistan/arundhati-roy-sal-02 Is there a threat of Talibanisation engulfing the entire region? I think it has already engulfed our region. I think there’s a need for a very clear thinking (on this issue of Talibanisation). In India, there are two kinds of terrorism: one is Islamic terrorism and the other Maoist terrorism. But this term terrorism, we must ask, what do they mean by it. In Pakistan, I’m here to understand what they mean by this term. When we say we must fight the Taliban or must defeat them, what does it mean? I’m here to understand what you mean when you say Taliban. Do you mean a militant? Do you mean an ideology? Exactly what is it that is being fought? That needs to be clarified. I think both needs to be fought. But if it’s an ideology it has to be fought differently, while if it’s a person with a gun then it has to be fought differently. We know from the history of the war on terror that a military strategy is only making matters worse all over the world. The war on terror has made the world a more dangerous place. In India, they have been fighting insurgencies military since 1947 and it has become a more dangerous place. Swat and the Taliban boy It is very important for me to understand what exactly is going in Swat. How did it start? A Taliban boy asked me why women can’t be like plastic bags and banned. The point is that the plastic bag was made in a factory but so was the boy. He was made in a factory that is producing this kind of mind(set). (The question is) who owns that factory, who funds it? Unless we deal with that factory, dealing with the boy doesn’t help us. Water is the main issue One danger in Pakistan is that we talk about the threat of Taliban so much that other important issues lose focus. In my view, the problem of water in the world will become the most important problem. I think big dams are economically unviable, environmentally unsustainable and politically undemocratic. They are a way of taking away a river from the poor and giving it to the rich. Like in India, there’s an issue of SEZs (Special Economic Zones), whereby the land of the people are given to corporations. But the bigger problem is that there are making dams and giving water to the industries. This way the people who live in villages by the streams and rivers have no water for themselves. So building dams is one of the most ecologically destructive things that you can do. Fight over Siachen glacier There are thousands of Pakistani and Indian soldiers deployed on the Siachen glacier. Both of our countries are spending billions of dollars on high altitude warfare and weapons. The whole of the Siachen glacier is sort of an icy monument to human folly. Each day it is being filled with ice axes, old boots, tents and so on. Meanwhile, that battlefield is melting. Siachen glacier is about half its size now. It’s not melting because the Indian and Pakistani soldiers are on it. But it’s because people somewhere on the other side of the world are leading a good life….in countries that call themselves democracies that believe in human rights and free speech. Their economies depend on selling weapons to both of us. Now, when that glacier melts, there will be floods first, then there will be a drought and then we’ll have even more reasons to fight. We’ll buy more weapons from those democracies and in this way human beings will prove themselves to be the stupidest animals on earth. Money and the Indian elections Whatever system of government you have, whether it is a military dictatorship or a democracy, and you have that for a long time, eventually big money manages to subvert it. That has begun to happen even in a democracy (like India). For example, political parties need a lot of publicity, but the media is also run by corporate money. If you look at the big political parties like the Congress and the BJP, you see how much money is being put out just in their advertising budgets. Now where does all that come from? RSS and the Indian establishment The RSS has infiltrated everything to a great extent. In India, we have 120-150 million Muslims and it’s considered a minority…It’s impossible to not belong to a minority of some sort in India. Caste or ethnicity or religion or whatever, in some way everyone belongs to a minority. The fights that many of us are waging against the RSS and against the BJP are to say that we live in a society which accommodates everybody. Everybody doesn’t have to love everybody, but everybody has to be accommodated. The RSS has infiltrated the (Indian) army as much as various kinds of Wahabism or other kinds of religious ideology have infiltrated the ISI or the armed forces in Pakistan. They are human beings like everyone else and they too get influenced. Indian media and sensationalizing of news coming out from Pakistan I think the media in both countries play this game. Whenever something happens here, they hype it up there, while when something happens there, they hype the news here. We say that we live in times of an information revolution and free press, but even then nobody gets to know the complete picture… The Pakistani media is a little different from the Indian media. They stand on a slightly different foundation. But both share the problem of a lack of accountability…The trouble in India is that 90 per cent of their revenue comes from the corporate sector…there’s increasing privatization and corporatization of governance, education, health, infrastructure and water management. So in India you see an open criticism of governance, but very rarely criticism of corporations. It’s a structural problem. It’s not about good people or bad people. It’s just that you can’t expect a company to work against itself. This is a very serious issue which needs to be sorted out. Is the Indian army a sacred cow? The Indian army is quite a sacred cow especially on TV and Bollywood. But at the same time if you talk to the people in the Indian army, they say that they feel that the media is very critical of them. I don’t share that view. I think it is a sacred cow. People are willing to give them a lot of leeway. Women and their fight for justice When women fight for justice, we must fight for every kind of justice… We must fight for justice for men and justice for children. Because if you fight for one kind of justice and you tolerate another, then it’s a pretty hollow fight. You may not be able to fight every battle, but you should be able to put yourself on the line and say I believe this. Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed May 13 11:27:17 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 11:27:17 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Arundhati Roy in Karachi In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6b79f1a70905122257l104959d4tf55ece54a8a8b392@mail.gmail.com> I am surprised ....."RSS has inflitrated the Indian Army" ........What are the basis on which such a general statement is made by Aran-Dhat-Tri-Ki-Roy ? Pawan On Wed, May 13, 2009 at 8:07 AM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > Dear All, > > The Delhi based writer Arundhati Roy has recently been in Karachi, > Pakistan at the invitation of civil society organizations and womens > rights groups. Here are two reports from Dawn, a Karachi based daily, > about meetings she attended (with an organization titled 'Womens > Action Forum') and interactions she had. I hope that they will be of > interest to people on the list. > > regards, > > Shuddha > ------------------------------ > 1. > > Arundhati Roy and the WAF > By Zubeida Mustafa > Wednesday, 13 May, 2009 > http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/ > pakistan/11-arundhati-roy-and-the-waf--02 > > ‘WOMEN to reclaim public spaces: a programme of defiance and > resistance.’ That is how the Women’s Action Forum defined the meeting > it held last Friday to mobilise public opinion against extremism. > > Although WAF’s concern to protect the space women have created in the > public mainstream has been on its agenda for some time, this goal has > acquired urgency in the wake of the events in Swat. The Nizam-i-Adl > Regulation in Malakand Division has brought people face to face with > the ugly reality of the Talibanisation phenomenon in the rural > backwaters as well as in modern urban centres. > > The Karachi meeting was well-attended by WAF’s standards. It is not > easy to mobilise women for any cause in this city of multiple > identities. The metropolis has a diversity of populations, cultures, > languages and economic interests posing a challenge to bring women > together on a single platform. Learning from its experience of the > lawyers’ movement that had succeeded in uniting the extreme right and > centrist political parties and the professionals on a single-point > agenda for two years, WAF also decided to make Talibanisation and > women the focal issue. > > That strategy paid off. Women had already been galvanised by the > video showing the flogging of a teenaged girl in Swat that activist > Samar Minallah courageously brought to the world media’s attention, > invoking in the process the wrath of the Taliban whose fatwa declared > her as wajibul qatl. The oppression of women is an issue that cuts > across classes to touch every female raw nerve. Whether it is the > smartly turned-out high-society woman or the working woman who slaves > all day long to feed an army of children and a drug-addict husband or > even the heavily veiled orthodox woman, each type, with few > exceptions, has expressed her horror at the flogging incident. > > Hence on this occasion WAF managed to bring a diverse crowd together > — the activists reaching out to the grassroots such as Amar Sindhu > from Sindh University Hyderabad, Parveen Rahman from the Orangi Pilot > Project and Sadiqa Salahuddin whose Indus Resource Centre runs > schools in the interior of Sindh, as well as the elites sitting side > by side with the three van-loads of women from Neelum Colony who > clean the homes of the rich and will be starting their adult literacy > classes from next week, courtesy Shabina’s Garage School. > > The variety of speakers focusing on the theme of women’s oppression > by the Taliban found a responsive audience. But the question that > made many ponder was: what next? Can this interest be sustained? If > they had not already started probing for answers, the thought- > provoking speech by Arundhati Roy, the renowned Indian writer and > activist, did the trick. Coming from New Delhi on a solidarity > mission to WAF’s meeting. Roy raised four issues: > > • What do we mean by the Taliban and what gave birth to them? > > • Define your own space and do not surrender it. > > • Don’t allow yourself to be forced into making choices of the ‘with > us or against us’ type. > > • Don’t be selective in your injustices. > > These should provide food for thought for those struggling against > oppression. Without being specific, Roy exhorted her audience to look > into the structures and systems that lead to a situation of such > extreme oppression, some of which is rooted in the class conflict. > She believes one has to take a ‘total view’ of the matter, which she > admitted she had come to Pakistan to understand. > > The fact is that we live in a largely grey area where the lines are > not sharply drawn. There is a lot of overlapping between issues > touching gender, class, ethnicity, culture, political power and > economic gains. It is this reality one has to recognise and see how > the contradictions can be addressed. The demand to take sides > unambiguously, expressed so vividly in the days following 9/11 by > George Bush as ‘You are with us or against us,’ can create a dilemma > for people when negotiating these grey areas. > > Roy’s advice to avoid being ‘with us or against us’ has implications > she didn’t elucidate. In times when action is needed and a position > has to be taken — even if verbally — inaction or neutrality > unwittingly props up the status quo. If the status quo has been > created by inimical forces ostensibly now fighting their self-created > Frankenstein, where does one go? > > The practical approach would be to prioritise strategies that can be > adapted to changing circumstances. And what should these be? Here Roy > has a point when she says that one cannot be selective in the > justices one espouses and the injustices one denounces. In this > context Pakistanis find themselves trapped between the devil and the > deep sea. Attempting to rectify a problem here and another there > really doesn’t help because our entire state structure is colonial, > as a booklet titled Making Pakistan a Tenable State points out. > > Produced by 17 intellectuals, with Dr Mubashir Hasan as the driving > force, the book describes the state structure as being ‘based on the > concentration of political and administrative power in the steel > frame of the civil services under the protection of the armed forces. > The structure could be defined as feudal-military-bureaucratic.’ > > The problem is systemic. In a state ruled by ‘a government of the > elites, by the elites, for the elites’ it is inevitable that it is > authoritarian and exploitative. Change can come when there is > mobilisation of the people for change. When WAF mobilises women to > fight against injustices it prepares them to also fight for change. > The need is to empower them and instill confidence in them. > > Two women I have written about who are fighting for change come from > the poorest of the poor and theirs is not a feminist agenda. They are > fighting to have a roof above their heads. One is the wife of Walidad > from Muhammad Essa Khaskheli who came all the way to Karachi in the > heat of summer to save her goth from being snapped up by a feudal in > the neighbourhood. > > The other is Parveen whose one-room ‘mansion’ in a katchi abadi of > Clifton is now under threat of demolition. She is resisting the > exploitative system that cannot provide shelter to the poor. > Initially she hesitated — was it ‘proper’ for a woman to protest she > had asked me. When encouraged she decided it was. These are women on > the way to empowerment and that is WAF’s agenda. > > 2. > > ‘I’m here to understand what you mean by Taliban’ > by Salman Siddiqui > Friday, 08 May, 2009 > http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/ > pakistan/arundhati-roy-sal-02 > > Is there a threat of Talibanisation engulfing the entire region? > > I think it has already engulfed our region. I think there’s a need > for a very clear thinking (on this issue of Talibanisation). In > India, there are two kinds of terrorism: one is Islamic terrorism and > the other Maoist terrorism. But this term terrorism, we must ask, > what do they mean by it. > > In Pakistan, I’m here to understand what they mean by this term. When > we say we must fight the Taliban or must defeat them, what does it > mean? I’m here to understand what you mean when you say Taliban. Do > you mean a militant? Do you mean an ideology? Exactly what is it that > is being fought? That needs to be clarified. > > I think both needs to be fought. But if it’s an ideology it has to be > fought differently, while if it’s a person with a gun then it has to > be fought differently. We know from the history of the war on terror > that a military strategy is only making matters worse all over the > world. The war on terror has made the world a more dangerous place. > In India, they have been fighting insurgencies military since 1947 > and it has become a more dangerous place. > > Swat and the Taliban boy > > It is very important for me to understand what exactly is going in > Swat. How did it start? A Taliban boy asked me why women can’t be > like plastic bags and banned. The point is that the plastic bag was > made in a factory but so was the boy. He was made in a factory that > is producing this kind of mind(set). (The question is) who owns that > factory, who funds it? Unless we deal with that factory, dealing with > the boy doesn’t help us. > > Water is the main issue > > One danger in Pakistan is that we talk about the threat of Taliban so > much that other important issues lose focus. In my view, the problem > of water in the world will become the most important problem. I > think big dams are economically unviable, environmentally > unsustainable and politically undemocratic. They are a way of taking > away a river from the poor and giving it to the rich. Like in India, > there’s an issue of SEZs (Special Economic Zones), whereby the land > of the people are given to corporations. But the bigger problem is > that there are making dams and giving water to the industries. This > way the people who live in villages by the streams and rivers have no > water for themselves. So building dams is one of the most > ecologically destructive things that you can do. > > Fight over Siachen glacier > > There are thousands of Pakistani and Indian soldiers deployed on the > Siachen glacier. Both of our countries are spending billions of > dollars on high altitude warfare and weapons. The whole of the > Siachen glacier is sort of an icy monument to human folly. Each day > it is being filled with ice axes, old boots, tents and so on. > Meanwhile, that battlefield is melting. Siachen glacier is about half > its size now. It’s not melting because the Indian and Pakistani > soldiers are on it. But it’s because people somewhere on the other > side of the world are leading a good life….in countries that call > themselves democracies that believe in human rights and free speech. > Their economies depend on selling weapons to both of us. Now, when > that glacier melts, there will be floods first, then there will be a > drought and then we’ll have even more reasons to fight. We’ll buy > more weapons from those democracies and in this way human beings will > prove themselves to be the stupidest animals on earth. > > Money and the Indian elections > > Whatever system of government you have, whether it is a military > dictatorship or a democracy, and you have that for a long time, > eventually big money manages to subvert it. That has begun to happen > even in a democracy (like India). For example, political parties need > a lot of publicity, but the media is also run by corporate money. If > you look at the big political parties like the Congress and the BJP, > you see how much money is being put out just in their advertising > budgets. Now where does all that come from? > > RSS and the Indian establishment > > The RSS has infiltrated everything to a great extent. In India, we > have 120-150 million Muslims and it’s considered a minority…It’s > impossible to not belong to a minority of some sort in India. Caste > or ethnicity or religion or whatever, in some way everyone belongs to > a minority. The fights that many of us are waging against the RSS and > against the BJP are to say that we live in a society which > accommodates everybody. Everybody doesn’t have to love everybody, but > everybody has to be accommodated. The RSS has infiltrated the > (Indian) army as much as various kinds of Wahabism or other kinds of > religious ideology have infiltrated the ISI or the armed forces in > Pakistan. They are human beings like everyone else and they too get > influenced. > > Indian media and sensationalizing of news coming out from Pakistan > > I think the media in both countries play this game. Whenever > something happens here, they hype it up there, while when something > happens there, they hype the news here. We say that we live in times > of an information revolution and free press, but even then nobody > gets to know the complete picture… > > The Pakistani media is a little different from the Indian media. They > stand on a slightly different foundation. But both share the problem > of a lack of accountability…The trouble in India is that 90 per cent > of their revenue comes from the corporate sector…there’s increasing > privatization and corporatization of governance, education, health, > infrastructure and water management. So in India you see an open > criticism of governance, but very rarely criticism of corporations. > It’s a structural problem. It’s not about good people or bad people. > It’s just that you can’t expect a company to work against itself. > This is a very serious issue which needs to be sorted out. > > Is the Indian army a sacred cow? > > The Indian army is quite a sacred cow especially on TV and Bollywood. > But at the same time if you talk to the people in the Indian army, > they say that they feel that the media is very critical of them. I > don’t share that view. I think it is a sacred cow. People are willing > to give them a lot of leeway. > > Women and their fight for justice > > When women fight for justice, we must fight for every kind of justice… > We must fight for justice for men and justice for children. Because > if you fight for one kind of justice and you tolerate another, then > it’s a pretty hollow fight. You may not be able to fight every > battle, but you should be able to put yourself on the line and say I > believe this. > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From jeebesh at sarai.net Wed May 13 11:49:50 2009 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 11:49:50 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Strike In-Reply-To: <96c0bb200905120859l7b19eddanc08e19b69e22fbd9@mail.gmail.com> References: <96c0bb200905120859l7b19eddanc08e19b69e22fbd9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: dear Faiz, It maybe worthwhile to see the corresponding figures on Lockouts. From 80s onwards lockouts had become a major weapon of bullying workers and has been used very often by companies. Strikes are sometimes disguised lockouts. Workers reluctance to go on strikes has something to do with this realizations. I had studied this in the period of late 80s and 90s. The trend seem to be similar. warmly jeebesh On 12-May-09, at 9:29 PM, faiz ullah wrote: > Hi, > > Instances of strike in India have been coming down year after year. > About > 800 in '94, 250 in '04 and about 170 in the 2008. What could be the > factors? > Is it because there's growing insecurity amongst workers, given that > a lot > of companies are using recession as an alibi to put more pressure on > their > workers? But this is more recent. Have trade unions become weaker? > Or things > have simply been getting better? > > > " Nestle strike creates fear in other factories" > http://www.business-standard.com/india/storypage.php?autono=357625 > > > Was eating Maggi...and wondering if this strike is going to have a > ripple > effect as this report speculates. Also, reporting in businees news > media > always plays up words like 'trouble' and 'militancy'. Why aren't > labour > issues part of the agneda...aren't they a part of the 'business'? > > > 'Labour militancy back in India?' > http://www.rediff.com/money/2006/jan/12guest.htm > "They say Japanese managements have hardly made any effort to learn > how to > deal with India's highly politicised unions, which traditionally > take an > anti-management stance for their survival. In Japan, the culture is > completely different. For instance, the relationship between a > labour union > and the company management is generally very close in Japan." > Workers must be really happy with their employers in Japan then! > > Faiz > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From shuddha at sarai.net Wed May 13 12:08:57 2009 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 12:08:57 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Arundhati Roy in Karachi In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70905122257l104959d4tf55ece54a8a8b392@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70905122257l104959d4tf55ece54a8a8b392@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <699764DC-79A9-4858-8FB2-46C0A4115790@sarai.net> Dear All, The statement attributed to Ms. Roy comes from a reporters summary in the Dawn newspaper of her interactions at the Karachi Womens Action Forum meeting. While its exact contents do need to be verified, the fact that there is a synergy between the broader Hindutva 'Parivar' (Family) and sections of the armed forces in India (just as there is between Islamists and broad sections of the military estabishment in Pakistan, which the report does refer to) should not in itself be seen as surprising. Perhaps memories are short, but the 'Abhinav Bharat' episode and the Malegaon Blast case, in which a serving miiitary intelligence officer Col. S.P. Purohit is one of the accused (and whose involvement in the attack on the Samjhauta Train to Pakistan is also under invesitgation) is an indication of the fact that contact between sections of the armed forces and the Hindutva 'Parivar' is not exactly a figure of fancy. As of now, the murky realities of the Malegaon case suggests that we only know the tip of an iceberg. And finally, is there a problem in spelling a person's name as it should be spelled, or has Pawan Durani been somehow rendered incapable of such a simple task? Have we come to such a pass that along with everything else, this list will now also have to undertake the burden of conducting object lessons in orthography and spelling? regards, Shuddha On 13-May-09, at 11:27 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > I am surprised ....."RSS has inflitrated the Indian > Army" ........What are the basis on which such a general statement > is made by Aran-Dhat-Tri-Ki-Roy ? > > Pawan > > On Wed, May 13, 2009 at 8:07 AM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta > wrote: > Dear All, > > The Delhi based writer Arundhati Roy has recently been in Karachi, > Pakistan at the invitation of civil society organizations and womens > rights groups. Here are two reports from Dawn, a Karachi based daily, > about meetings she attended (with an organization titled 'Womens > Action Forum') and interactions she had. I hope that they will be of > interest to people on the list. > > regards, > > Shuddha > ------------------------------ > 1. > > Arundhati Roy and the WAF > By Zubeida Mustafa > Wednesday, 13 May, 2009 > http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/ > pakistan/11-arundhati-roy-and-the-waf--02 > > ‘WOMEN to reclaim public spaces: a programme of defiance and > resistance.’ That is how the Women’s Action Forum defined the meeting > it held last Friday to mobilise public opinion against extremism. > > Although WAF’s concern to protect the space women have created in the > public mainstream has been on its agenda for some time, this goal has > acquired urgency in the wake of the events in Swat. The Nizam-i-Adl > Regulation in Malakand Division has brought people face to face with > the ugly reality of the Talibanisation phenomenon in the rural > backwaters as well as in modern urban centres. > > The Karachi meeting was well-attended by WAF’s standards. It is not > easy to mobilise women for any cause in this city of multiple > identities. The metropolis has a diversity of populations, cultures, > languages and economic interests posing a challenge to bring women > together on a single platform. Learning from its experience of the > lawyers’ movement that had succeeded in uniting the extreme right and > centrist political parties and the professionals on a single-point > agenda for two years, WAF also decided to make Talibanisation and > women the focal issue. > > That strategy paid off. Women had already been galvanised by the > video showing the flogging of a teenaged girl in Swat that activist > Samar Minallah courageously brought to the world media’s attention, > invoking in the process the wrath of the Taliban whose fatwa declared > her as wajibul qatl. The oppression of women is an issue that cuts > across classes to touch every female raw nerve. Whether it is the > smartly turned-out high-society woman or the working woman who slaves > all day long to feed an army of children and a drug-addict husband or > even the heavily veiled orthodox woman, each type, with few > exceptions, has expressed her horror at the flogging incident. > > Hence on this occasion WAF managed to bring a diverse crowd together > — the activists reaching out to the grassroots such as Amar Sindhu > from Sindh University Hyderabad, Parveen Rahman from the Orangi Pilot > Project and Sadiqa Salahuddin whose Indus Resource Centre runs > schools in the interior of Sindh, as well as the elites sitting side > by side with the three van-loads of women from Neelum Colony who > clean the homes of the rich and will be starting their adult literacy > classes from next week, courtesy Shabina’s Garage School. > > The variety of speakers focusing on the theme of women’s oppression > by the Taliban found a responsive audience. But the question that > made many ponder was: what next? Can this interest be sustained? If > they had not already started probing for answers, the thought- > provoking speech by Arundhati Roy, the renowned Indian writer and > activist, did the trick. Coming from New Delhi on a solidarity > mission to WAF’s meeting. Roy raised four issues: > > • What do we mean by the Taliban and what gave birth to them? > > • Define your own space and do not surrender it. > > • Don’t allow yourself to be forced into making choices of the ‘with > us or against us’ type. > > • Don’t be selective in your injustices. > > These should provide food for thought for those struggling against > oppression. Without being specific, Roy exhorted her audience to look > into the structures and systems that lead to a situation of such > extreme oppression, some of which is rooted in the class conflict. > She believes one has to take a ‘total view’ of the matter, which she > admitted she had come to Pakistan to understand. > > The fact is that we live in a largely grey area where the lines are > not sharply drawn. There is a lot of overlapping between issues > touching gender, class, ethnicity, culture, political power and > economic gains. It is this reality one has to recognise and see how > the contradictions can be addressed. The demand to take sides > unambiguously, expressed so vividly in the days following 9/11 by > George Bush as ‘You are with us or against us,’ can create a dilemma > for people when negotiating these grey areas. > > Roy’s advice to avoid being ‘with us or against us’ has implications > she didn’t elucidate. In times when action is needed and a position > has to be taken — even if verbally — inaction or neutrality > unwittingly props up the status quo. If the status quo has been > created by inimical forces ostensibly now fighting their self-created > Frankenstein, where does one go? > > The practical approach would be to prioritise strategies that can be > adapted to changing circumstances. And what should these be? Here Roy > has a point when she says that one cannot be selective in the > justices one espouses and the injustices one denounces. In this > context Pakistanis find themselves trapped between the devil and the > deep sea. Attempting to rectify a problem here and another there > really doesn’t help because our entire state structure is colonial, > as a booklet titled Making Pakistan a Tenable State points out. > > Produced by 17 intellectuals, with Dr Mubashir Hasan as the driving > force, the book describes the state structure as being ‘based on the > concentration of political and administrative power in the steel > frame of the civil services under the protection of the armed forces. > The structure could be defined as feudal-military-bureaucratic.’ > > The problem is systemic. In a state ruled by ‘a government of the > elites, by the elites, for the elites’ it is inevitable that it is > authoritarian and exploitative. Change can come when there is > mobilisation of the people for change. When WAF mobilises women to > fight against injustices it prepares them to also fight for change. > The need is to empower them and instill confidence in them. > > Two women I have written about who are fighting for change come from > the poorest of the poor and theirs is not a feminist agenda. They are > fighting to have a roof above their heads. One is the wife of Walidad > from Muhammad Essa Khaskheli who came all the way to Karachi in the > heat of summer to save her goth from being snapped up by a feudal in > the neighbourhood. > > The other is Parveen whose one-room ‘mansion’ in a katchi abadi of > Clifton is now under threat of demolition. She is resisting the > exploitative system that cannot provide shelter to the poor. > Initially she hesitated — was it ‘proper’ for a woman to protest she > had asked me. When encouraged she decided it was. These are women on > the way to empowerment and that is WAF’s agenda. > > 2. > > ‘I’m here to understand what you mean by Taliban’ > by Salman Siddiqui > Friday, 08 May, 2009 > http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/ > pakistan/arundhati-roy-sal-02 > > Is there a threat of Talibanisation engulfing the entire region? > > I think it has already engulfed our region. I think there’s a need > for a very clear thinking (on this issue of Talibanisation). In > India, there are two kinds of terrorism: one is Islamic terrorism and > the other Maoist terrorism. But this term terrorism, we must ask, > what do they mean by it. > > In Pakistan, I’m here to understand what they mean by this term. When > we say we must fight the Taliban or must defeat them, what does it > mean? I’m here to understand what you mean when you say Taliban. Do > you mean a militant? Do you mean an ideology? Exactly what is it that > is being fought? That needs to be clarified. > > I think both needs to be fought. But if it’s an ideology it has to be > fought differently, while if it’s a person with a gun then it has to > be fought differently. We know from the history of the war on terror > that a military strategy is only making matters worse all over the > world. The war on terror has made the world a more dangerous place. > In India, they have been fighting insurgencies military since 1947 > and it has become a more dangerous place. > > Swat and the Taliban boy > > It is very important for me to understand what exactly is going in > Swat. How did it start? A Taliban boy asked me why women can’t be > like plastic bags and banned. The point is that the plastic bag was > made in a factory but so was the boy. He was made in a factory that > is producing this kind of mind(set). (The question is) who owns that > factory, who funds it? Unless we deal with that factory, dealing with > the boy doesn’t help us. > > Water is the main issue > > One danger in Pakistan is that we talk about the threat of Taliban so > much that other important issues lose focus. In my view, the problem > of water in the world will become the most important problem. I > think big dams are economically unviable, environmentally > unsustainable and politically undemocratic. They are a way of taking > away a river from the poor and giving it to the rich. Like in India, > there’s an issue of SEZs (Special Economic Zones), whereby the land > of the people are given to corporations. But the bigger problem is > that there are making dams and giving water to the industries. This > way the people who live in villages by the streams and rivers have no > water for themselves. So building dams is one of the most > ecologically destructive things that you can do. > > Fight over Siachen glacier > > There are thousands of Pakistani and Indian soldiers deployed on the > Siachen glacier. Both of our countries are spending billions of > dollars on high altitude warfare and weapons. The whole of the > Siachen glacier is sort of an icy monument to human folly. Each day > it is being filled with ice axes, old boots, tents and so on. > Meanwhile, that battlefield is melting. Siachen glacier is about half > its size now. It’s not melting because the Indian and Pakistani > soldiers are on it. But it’s because people somewhere on the other > side of the world are leading a good life….in countries that call > themselves democracies that believe in human rights and free speech. > Their economies depend on selling weapons to both of us. Now, when > that glacier melts, there will be floods first, then there will be a > drought and then we’ll have even more reasons to fight. We’ll buy > more weapons from those democracies and in this way human beings will > prove themselves to be the stupidest animals on earth. > > Money and the Indian elections > > Whatever system of government you have, whether it is a military > dictatorship or a democracy, and you have that for a long time, > eventually big money manages to subvert it. That has begun to happen > even in a democracy (like India). For example, political parties need > a lot of publicity, but the media is also run by corporate money. If > you look at the big political parties like the Congress and the BJP, > you see how much money is being put out just in their advertising > budgets. Now where does all that come from? > > RSS and the Indian establishment > > The RSS has infiltrated everything to a great extent. In India, we > have 120-150 million Muslims and it’s considered a minority…It’s > impossible to not belong to a minority of some sort in India. Caste > or ethnicity or religion or whatever, in some way everyone belongs to > a minority. The fights that many of us are waging against the RSS and > against the BJP are to say that we live in a society which > accommodates everybody. Everybody doesn’t have to love everybody, but > everybody has to be accommodated. The RSS has infiltrated the > (Indian) army as much as various kinds of Wahabism or other kinds of > religious ideology have infiltrated the ISI or the armed forces in > Pakistan. They are human beings like everyone else and they too get > influenced. > > Indian media and sensationalizing of news coming out from Pakistan > > I think the media in both countries play this game. Whenever > something happens here, they hype it up there, while when something > happens there, they hype the news here. We say that we live in times > of an information revolution and free press, but even then nobody > gets to know the complete picture… > > The Pakistani media is a little different from the Indian media. They > stand on a slightly different foundation. But both share the problem > of a lack of accountability…The trouble in India is that 90 per cent > of their revenue comes from the corporate sector…there’s increasing > privatization and corporatization of governance, education, health, > infrastructure and water management. So in India you see an open > criticism of governance, but very rarely criticism of corporations. > It’s a structural problem. It’s not about good people or bad people. > It’s just that you can’t expect a company to work against itself. > This is a very serious issue which needs to be sorted out. > > Is the Indian army a sacred cow? > > The Indian army is quite a sacred cow especially on TV and Bollywood. > But at the same time if you talk to the people in the Indian army, > they say that they feel that the media is very critical of them. I > don’t share that view. I think it is a sacred cow. People are willing > to give them a lot of leeway. > > Women and their fight for justice > > When women fight for justice, we must fight for every kind of justice… > We must fight for justice for men and justice for children. Because > if you fight for one kind of justice and you tolerate another, then > it’s a pretty hollow fight. You may not be able to fight every > battle, but you should be able to put yourself on the line and say I > believe this. > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From aliens at dataone.in Wed May 13 12:30:31 2009 From: aliens at dataone.in (bipin) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 12:30:31 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] APJ letter References: <000801c9d2f3$6ff1c010$0201a8c0@limo> Message-ID: <006001c9d398$81b82af0$0201a8c0@limo> Dear Rakesh and all, What a foolish argument that Dr. Kalam was chosen by BJP, so he is closely related to BJP's view. Anyway your many arguments are remain irrelevant, that's what I experienced earlier, so nothing new about it. Thanks for agreeing some of the points of Dr. Kalam at least. My dear friend, when security threat is there in India in the form of terrorism, nationalism is the only way to counter it and each and every citizen (Includes all the minority/majority involved in anti-Indian activities) must feel for proud to be Indian. When you don't support nationalism, than you must be supporting religionism or casteism and dividing the country as you prefer in case of J&K. I appreciate that atleast you agreed on the development plank, which I always insisting for and the voter awareness to elect on this plank is necessary. However, this awareness is increasing slowly and steadily is really a positive sign and in the near future regional parties has minimum role unless they think real development rather than region or caste. Superpower has very broad meaning. What you are giving US example and in keeping in mind is financial super power. Dr. Kalam had not used word super-power or even development in his speech. Please read it carefully. Dr. Kalam told that we are not at all behind by any countries with mentioning few examples. He mainly highlighted the negative reporting by media. He gave just example of Israel media's positive reporting. So, don't mis-understood that he is agreeing all the policies of Israel. He gave different example of different countries that when you feel proud for that countries cleanliness, ethics, morality, obey the rules and code of conduct in the respected countries, but you forget the same to obey in India. If you obey all these honestly, you will be counted as developed country the super-power also. You are giving example of injustice to Palestinians by Israeli (of course this is altogether different issue that who suffered with injustice), but swiftly forgetting imposed terrorism by Pakistan-Taliban and giving injustice to India. What an idea, its state responsibility to help their people by way of providing employment, food, house, health etc, but you have to create employment by way of industrialization, technological development, R&D development and above all infrastructural development. If you make all the above development in a proper way automatically up-lift the poorest of the poor man. Without all this, if you expect state to help the people is foolish thinking and you make people lazy and lethargic. Even you don't have sufficient resources for fulfillment. Again I am telling that govt. job is to provide proper infrastructure and each and every citizen must perform their work/duty honestly for their own development. No body says that everyone has to do for India, but oneself does honestly for themselves is sufficient. Charity begins from home. thanks Bipin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rakesh Iyer" To: "bipin" Cc: "sarai-list" ; "c-positive group" Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2009 10:06 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] APJ letter > Dear Bipin (and all) > > I agree and yet also not agree with what Mr. Kalam has said in the > above speech. Let me elaborate on what I agree and on what I don't > agree. > > Kalam jee was chosen the president by the BJP, and ironically also has > views which are also very closely related to the BJP's views on how > the people of India should be: hardcore nationalists. I can understand > that in today's times, nation-states are a reality (or state-nation in > case of India if I may say so), which can not be washed away. However, > this does not mean that we should go around being nationalists. > Nationalism is not going to solve the problems of our people (by this > I mean the people of our nation/state here). > > I agree with Kalam jee when he says that Indians tend to crib about > things rather than doing something about it. And that is one of the > reasons I personally believe that the present elections, the idea of > exhorting middle classes to just go out and vote is of no use, > particularly since voting in itself is no end. It is just one of the > means to achieve the end, which is development. And all these > campaigns don't focus on educating our citizens to actually make the > politicians more accountable, the system more accountable, the > bureaucrats and the judiciary more accountable. > > Hence, even if the voting is 100%, it's useless. > > He is also right, that let us start doing things rather than > chitchatting among ourselves. Equally the view that people should > first set themselves as example before exhorting others is equally > true. > > However, unlike him, I don't wish to do this to make India a strong > nation or a superpower. Far from it. I want to do this because it > would ultimatley help the people of India. We have all seen what a > superpower is, in the form of America. We have seen how since 2000 to > 2008, it has misused whatever the power it had, right from the > response to 11th September 2001, to Bush's farewell being celebrated > as it led to the rise of Obama. We have equally seen the tragedies of > a scale unseen in earlier conflicts in Afghanistan and Iraq. And now, > the Af-Pak region is more unsafe than it was in 2001 (Don't forget the > fact that the real reason it is unsafe is because of the Taliban, > another US-ISI creation). > > And I don't think we are going to be anyhow different from them. The > best example is our cricket board, the richest cricket boards out of > all in the world (i.e. the nations in which cricket is played). I > still remember how during 2008, we had the 'Monkey' controversy, where > it was alleged that Harbhajan Singh, one of our cricket players, had > called Andrew Symonds, an Australian player 'monkey'. The ironic part > is that from what transpired out, it was stated that actually > Harbhajan had said 'maa ki' (which means he was abusing Symonds' > mother) rather than 'monkey' (him for his looks or may be one can say > race). > > And then, to add to our cricket team's dismay, we had three wrong > decisions taken against us. But how did we respond? > > We had Sharad Pawar, a mainstream politician heading the BCCI then (he > still heads now). Under him, the BCCI stated that we will come back > off the tour if the decision is not taken to our satisfaction. Nobody > has ever blackmailed the ICC for this. What's more, we asked the > umpires to be changed. Never before in a test match series has this > ever happened. But we all managed this, because we had money. And > what's more, the people around me were saying that we are a cricketing > superpower, we are the richest board in the world, we can and should > do as we please. > > If this is what we will do as a cricketing superpower, God knows what > we can do as a political superpower like say America. Therefore, I am > genuinely not interested in seeing India as a superpower which > dictates to other nations, loses their trust and friendship, and makes > the lives of people across the world that much more difficult. > > Secondly, since Kalam jee is talking about a developed nation, I think > he should equally define development. The reason is that different > people have different conceptions of development. And all these have > to be taken into consideration before we come to certain conclusions. > For me, the development we wish to carry about, with SEZ's and opening > up of the economy without looking at its' impact on the rural India > and helping the poor and the downtrodden, is of no use and we should > stop it, and change or modify it so that all are benefited. It is > tough, but certainly it would be better. > > On a positive note, I agree with his point that we have to look at > positivity as well. But that does not mean one neglects issues of > injustice, including that injustice being meted out to Palestinians by > the Israeli attacks. Positivity is not there because our system is > really in a mess and we are not doing a thing about it. I remember > Shahrukh Khan from Swades who says ' agar hum sab kehte rahe ki yeh > desh barbaad ho jayega, to ek din yeh desh wakai mein barbaad ho > jayega. aur is ke zimmedar mai hoonga, aap honge, aap sab, hum sab.' > > And finally, it is not necessary for every citizen to think what > he/she has done for India. In Ashoka and Akbar's rule, there was no > India, and yet they helped the people. So, it's the state's > responsibility to help its people, for after all it is formed with > their support. Regarding their duties, it's to monitor whether the > state is giving adequate help or not, ensure adequate help is given at > all times, and to modify and change the way that help is required if > needed. > > So therefore, no need for people to think what they have done for > India compulsorily, although if someone thinks about it (like Shahrukh > in Swades), I am happy. (Not that I am sad if someone doesn't, at > least he discharges his duty (or even she), that is fine). > > Regards > > Rakesh From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Wed May 13 13:08:36 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 13:08:36 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] APJ letter In-Reply-To: <006001c9d398$81b82af0$0201a8c0@limo> References: <000801c9d2f3$6ff1c010$0201a8c0@limo> <006001c9d398$81b82af0$0201a8c0@limo> Message-ID: Dear Bipin jee (and all) Let me clarify certain points and also add further more. First of all, sorry as I had stated that Kalam jee had chosen president by the BJP. Yes he is chosen by the electoral college, so I am sorry about that. Having said that, I can't forget the conditions under which the BJP decided to support him (his name was first thrown into the ring by the Samajwadi Party, but nobody talked about that when the BJP supported him). We had had Godhra and the post-Godhra pogrom, and a brilliant way of Muslim appeasement was practiced by the BJP and the then-ruling NDA by introducing his name at a time, when they were confused about Krishna kant and P.C.Alexander themselves. (And the Congress further proved it is equal to this task by supporting his candidature) Secondly, Bipin jee, I can understand your problem. For you, whatever supports your point is relevant, rest all is irrelevant. Waise if you felt my arguments were irrelevant, you should not have replied back at all. Probably it struck you too strongly. My sympathies in that case. Thirdly, unlike your belief, terrorism can't be countered with nationalism (it's like saying that terror can be struck with counter-terror, remembering Shuddha jee's post here). Terrorism can only be countered down at the roots. Nationalism is not what its root is. Israel has been trying to eradicate terrorism since the last 50 years, without success (and Israel is more nationalistic than India). And now we will have the Modis and Advanis doing the same. Forget the root cause, you have never even spoken about reforming our police and judiciary and their functioning to see that at least such cases are solved at the earliest in a proper manner. For your kind information, Tagore jee was also against nationalism, and he even argued with Gandhi about it. (Gandhi had said that nationalism is ok if it leads to internationalism, Tagore said this is crap). And we all know what happened to Japan during the Second World War which it joined in the name of nationalism. Not going far, go and find about the Hirakud dam oustees who were asked to sacrifice their land for a 'nationalist' cause. Fourthly, I am taking this speech into consideration along with his previous speeches which he made as a president, when he used to say that India has to be turned into a developed nation by 2020. And in Bhopal, he even claimed we have to become a superpower (he visited Bhopal around Independence Day in 2002, if I am not wrong). May be it's not written in his speech, but looking at the kind of profession he was in and the goals he has stated, he believes in nationalism like you, and so such views are not surprising. My problem is that we all know how the US behaved as a superpower. So I don't wish to see India doing that. Fifthly, the US is not just a financial superpower sir. It's a military superpower too. No nation in the world has got the kind of arms, and technical superiority in defence arms which the US has, although other nations are trying to achieve that. It's on this basis that it undertook a campaign in Iraq, virtually bulldozing all opposition against this even in the UN. And looking at our record in other areas, I dont' see any reason why we would behave differently from them if we were in their position. Sixthly, the kind of development paradigm we are undertaking today has to be debated. Neither Kalam nor you have mentioned what is this development paradigm they believe in. If it's the current paradigm which has made the US developed, I am against it as it would only lead to destruction on a global scale involving death of millions of innocent people and further breeding of terrorism. Therefore, it is better that we first of all discuss about that rather than tripping over people voting on development. Seventhly, if you think people vote for development, go and find out what that development means for them. Probably you can also be for a shock, if you find that Dalits in many parts think development just means that no upper caste man attacks their women. They don't want education, health or even good roads, they just want security. And security in itself is development for them! So traditionally in India, people have voted for development and continue to do so, it's just that the meaning of development is different for different people. Eighth. First we should look at ourselves before pointing fingers at others (Said by Mahatma Gandhi, Jesus Christ, and probably so many others before I state this here again). The Indian state has unleashed injustice on so many people, be it through fake encounters, through prostitution, through lack of implementing prohibition, through improper governance and massive corruption, through schemes which ensured mass displacement of people without proper rehabilitation, and through mechanisms which ensured people didn't get justice at the proper place at the proper time. Moreover, people have not been able to lead their lives through dignity as well. What about that? Before looking at Taliban and Pakistan, let us look at our own state apparatus. Ninth. You say that it's not the state's responsibility. I believe it is. The Indian state destroyed mechanisms and norms which had developed in our villages on a self-decided basis there itself, regarding how are the resources to be managed and consumed, how is agriculture to be carried out, how will water be saved for the dry summer months, and so on. The Indian state penetrated each and every area where villages had been governed on a self-government basis, and now all these areas have seen no development due to massive corruption and centralization of powers, rather than proper decentralization. Therefore, it's not me, but the very Indian state, which has accepted that it's the state's responsibility to provide for its citizens. And when it fails, I will criticize it, whether you like it or not. If you think it's wrong, ask the govt. to decentralize the powers and functioning areas so that villages can manage themselves properly in a more democratic manner. Would be better for the villagers too. Moreover, even going by your logic, if industrialization, R & D development and infrastructure development have to be undertaken, the policies for these are formulated by the govt, and hence indirectly or directly, it's the Indian state which is responsible for the plight of its citizens. Sir, you have pronounced my ideas as irrelevant. I would not do that. I respect people's views. So, let others decide whether your ideas are irrelevant or not. Same for mine as well. Regards Rakesh From faiz.outsider at gmail.com Wed May 13 13:10:07 2009 From: faiz.outsider at gmail.com (faiz ullah) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 13:10:07 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Strike In-Reply-To: References: <96c0bb200905120859l7b19eddanc08e19b69e22fbd9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <96c0bb200905130040g45eb277ue3bc36d897a7f3d5@mail.gmail.com> Dear Shuddha and Jeebesh, As opposed to collective or mass action, one also gets to hear a lot of incidents of individual resistance. I know of a couple of people who work at the call centres in Bombay (don't know if they qualify as 'workers'?) who intentionally drop calls or go out for longer breaks, off their work stations, than they're permitted to. I have come across (or read about) similar experiences in other industries also, and efforts made by managements to contain them with increased surveillence and ingenious rules and regulations. How do we measure the effectiveness of these 'acts', and if there's a point in doing that, then should we even be making an attempt? Wouldn't that amount to 'outing' and weakening such efforts. It's kind of a catch-22 situation...just thinking aloud. Hope to hear and discuss a lot more... Regards, Faiz On Wed, May 13, 2009 at 11:49 AM, Jeebesh wrote: > dear Faiz, > > It maybe worthwhile to see the corresponding figures on Lockouts. > > From 80s onwards lockouts had become a major weapon of bullying > workers and has been used very often by companies. Strikes are > sometimes disguised lockouts. Workers reluctance to go on strikes has > something to do with this realizations. I had studied this in the > period of late 80s and 90s. The trend seem to be similar. > > warmly > jeebesh > > On 12-May-09, at 9:29 PM, faiz ullah wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > Instances of strike in India have been coming down year after year. > > About > > 800 in '94, 250 in '04 and about 170 in the 2008. What could be the > > factors? > > Is it because there's growing insecurity amongst workers, given that > > a lot > > of companies are using recession as an alibi to put more pressure on > > their > > workers? But this is more recent. Have trade unions become weaker? > > Or things > > have simply been getting better? > > > > > > " Nestle strike creates fear in other factories" > > http://www.business-standard.com/india/storypage.php?autono=357625 > > > > > > Was eating Maggi...and wondering if this strike is going to have a > > ripple > > effect as this report speculates. Also, reporting in businees news > > media > > always plays up words like 'trouble' and 'militancy'. Why aren't > > labour > > issues part of the agneda...aren't they a part of the 'business'? > > > > > > 'Labour militancy back in India?' > > http://www.rediff.com/money/2006/jan/12guest.htm > > "They say Japanese managements have hardly made any effort to learn > > how to > > deal with India's highly politicised unions, which traditionally > > take an > > anti-management stance for their survival. In Japan, the culture is > > completely different. For instance, the relationship between a > > labour union > > and the company management is generally very close in Japan." > > Workers must be really happy with their employers in Japan then! > > > > Faiz > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- faiz From ayishaa at gmail.com Wed May 13 13:48:52 2009 From: ayishaa at gmail.com (Ayisha Abraham) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 13:48:52 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: bar1 proposal No.3 Proper to IFA fror India-India Residency 2009 In-Reply-To: <8d20c570905130008y46433bc5vbf4b7a21d9906006@mail.gmail.com> References: <246920.10609.qm@web8314.mail.in.yahoo.com> <651885b40905122249oe740ad1h110c4fef1e776924@mail.gmail.com> <8d20c570905122339s54262f1aocb6fedb1b1290838@mail.gmail.com> <651885b40905122355p1a42db77g901e9756759162c7@mail.gmail.com> <8d20c570905130008y46433bc5vbf4b7a21d9906006@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7357da570905130118h74e79158yd52e40815e2c02b9@mail.gmail.com> Surekha, Sounds good. Could you send it out to the readers list at: reader-list at sarai.net Tends to go out far and wide. I can send it to the Srishti mail as well once the final version is out. Where else? Also, I am in town through May, so I could help with anything needed to be done. i can also set up a desk in my studio as an office and we could check that out and introduce Mangala to the space. Let me know ayisha On Wed, May 13, 2009 at 12:38 PM, surekha wrote: > sounds fine. > I have done some changes ---budget > > On Wed, May 13, 2009 at 12:25 PM, Shai Heredia > wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> I have made some changes. See enclosed. Please send on if this works for >> you. >> >> Shai >> >> On Wed, May 13, 2009 at 12:09 PM, surekha wrote: >> > Dear Shai >> > I have edited a bit. >> > Check this. >> > I can wait for your  final one. We can send the call by tonight.I will >> > use >> > last year's format ( design) once the text is finalised. >> > Cheers, >> > Surekha >> > >> > On Wed, May 13, 2009 at 11:19 AM, Shai Heredia >> > >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> Dear all, >> >> >> >> Please find the call for applications enclosed. I have pointed out >> >> some issues in red, which if you feel you would like to address, then >> >> please do so. In any case, do send out the call as soon as possible. >> >> >> >> I am also working on the proposal as it needs to include some of the >> >> learnings from the last residency so as to explain why the new >> >> residency has taken the form it has. I will send this to you by >> >> tomorrow at the latest. >> >> >> >> Until soon, >> >> >> >> Shai >> >> >> >> On Mon, May 4, 2009 at 2:22 PM, shai heredia >> >> wrote: >> >> > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> >> > From:   >> >> > Date: 2009/5/4 >> >> > Subject: Fw: bar1 proposal No.3 Proper to IFA fror India-India >> >> > Residency >> >> > 2009 >> >> > To: shaiheredia at gmail.com >> >> > Cc: raghuraokv at yahoo.co.uk, redsurya at rediffmail.com, >> >> > ayishaa at gmail.com, prabhameppayil at rediffmail.com, >> >> > smithacar at yahoo.com, >> >> > isurekha at gmail.com >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Dear all, sorry it got obviously a bit late yesterday and I have sent >> >> > the wrong budget and proposal. >> >> > >> >> > Here are the correct ones. >> >> > >> >> > After Shai's comment to the 'struggling bar1' I have corrected this >> >> > last passage (General Note) in the 'Call' as follows: >> >> > >> >> > "The bar1-organizers of the India-India Residency 2009 had to shape >> >> > the programme with restricted means. The last year experience shows >> >> > that it is crucial that all the residency guests understand that bar1 >> >> > is a group >> >> > of Bangalore artists having to fine-tune the residency programme >> >> > within limits to make their 3-month stay in Bangalore possible and >> >> > worthwhile." >> >> > >> >> > This comment is addressed for the sake of transparency to all those >> >> > aware of last year's monthly stipend, but even more it tries to fight >> >> > the obviously existing misconception amongst some Indian artists (as >> >> > we had to learn last year)that an invitation for an artist means >> >> > basically an invitation by an institution (with endless means)and not >> >> > by an group of like-minded people, who are artists like the oneself, >> >> > therefore people with a tendency for 'struggling' or better even for >> >> > muddling one's way through, as I shamefully admit to be doing. >> >> > >> >> > Christoph >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >      Now surf faster and smarter ! Check out the new Firefox 3 - >> >> > Yahoo! Edition* >> >> > http://downloads.yahoo.com/in/firefox/?fr=om_email_firefox >> >> > >> > >> > > > -- Ayisha Abraham 002 Serena # 2 Lloyd Road Cooke Town Bangalore 560005 tele: 91-80-25464058 From sonia.jabbar at gmail.com Wed May 13 13:48:31 2009 From: sonia.jabbar at gmail.com (S. Jabbar) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 13:48:31 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Arundhati Roy in Karachi In-Reply-To: <699764DC-79A9-4858-8FB2-46C0A4115790@sarai.net> Message-ID: Dear Shuddha, While the Malegaon blast case may be the tip of the iceberg there has been no study at all to verify the size of that iceberg. It is one thing to infiltrate the ranks surreptitiously and quite another to openly recruit in the name of religion. More to the point, the Indian Army condemned Purohit's involvement and distanced itself from him, just as it has condemned and distanced itself from instances where jawans from J&K had cooperated with the LeT. As such, it is pure hyperbole to compare instance(s?) of RSS infiltration to the systematic and open program of Islamization that the Pakistani Army has undergone since General Zia's regime in the 1970s. This is well-documented by numerous scholars and journalists. In the 60's (Yahya Khan's time) the army recruited from Jamat Islami cadre, in the 71 War the Muktibahini was described as Kafir, while Pakistani soldiers were called Mujahideen by their own officers. Even today the Military Academy indoctrinates its officers in-training to fight a 'Hindu-Bania-Kafir' India invoking the traditions of its own Punjabi-Pashtun 'martial races.' In fact, Islamic studies is very much part of the curriculum of the Pakistan Military Academy. More to the point is the way the Pakistani military has traditionally played footsie with fundamentalist forces in the most blatant manner to legitimize its own rule. Whenever the military has been in power those forces have grown and supported sundry dictators; conversely, whenever Pakistan has had half a chance to exercise its franchise the power of fundamentalist forces has diminished. There is simply no parallel to the way the Indian Army operates. I would also like to point out a few tragic episodes that have to do with certain upright, professional Pakistani soldiers and their run-ins with the Mullah-military complex: General Durrani who was Pakistan's NSA and a distinguished soldier found himself jobless after he advocated a moderate line vis-à-vis India and General Alvi (Naipaul's brother in-law, incidentally) found himself quite dead, murdered mysteriously last year. And what can I possibly say of the greatest irony when the Taliban took over Swat? A Pakistani friend called in great despair. The ANP was being accused of surrendering but they could do nothing because the Army and police refused to extend protection, therefore they appealed that the Nizam e Adl be implemented. It was their only hope for survival. And when Mullah Sufi Mohammad triumphantly entered Swat to do the 'deal' he lead the prayers while the brigadier of the local garrison stood five paces behind... > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 12:08:57 +0530 > To: Pawan Durani > Cc: "reader-list at sarai.net list" > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Arundhati Roy in Karachi > > Dear All, The statement attributed to Ms. Roy comes from a reporters summary > in the Dawn newspaper of her interactions at the Karachi Womens Action > Forum meeting. While its exact contents do need to be verified, the fact > that there is a synergy between the broader Hindutva 'Parivar' (Family) and > sections of the armed forces in India (just as there is between Islamists > and broad sections of the military estabishment in Pakistan, which the > report does refer to) should not in itself be seen as surprising. Perhaps > memories are short, but the 'Abhinav Bharat' episode and the Malegaon Blast > case, in which a serving miiitary intelligence officer Col. S.P. Purohit is > one of the accused (and whose involvement in the attack on the Samjhauta > Train to Pakistan is also under invesitgation) is an indication of the fact > that contact between sections of the armed forces and the Hindutva 'Parivar' > is not exactly a figure of fancy. As of now, the murky realities of the > Malegaon case suggests that we only know the tip of an iceberg. And finally, > is there a problem in spelling a person's name as it should be spelled, or > has Pawan Durani been somehow rendered incapable of such a simple task? Have > we come to such a pass that along with everything else, this list will now > also have to undertake the burden of conducting object lessons in > orthography and spelling? regards, Shuddha On 13-May-09, at 11:27 AM, > Pawan Durani wrote: > I am surprised ....."RSS has inflitrated the Indian > > Army" ........What are the basis on which such a general statement > is made > by Aran-Dhat-Tri-Ki-Roy ? > > Pawan > > On Wed, May 13, 2009 at 8:07 AM, > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > wrote: > Dear All, > > The Delhi > based writer Arundhati Roy has recently been in Karachi, > Pakistan at the > invitation of civil society organizations and womens > rights groups. Here are > two reports from Dawn, a Karachi based daily, > about meetings she attended > (with an organization titled 'Womens > Action Forum') and interactions she > had. I hope that they will be of > interest to people on the list. > > > regards, > > Shuddha > ------------------------------ > 1. > > Arundhati Roy > and the WAF > By Zubeida Mustafa > Wednesday, 13 May, 2009 > > http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/ > > pakistan/11-arundhati-roy-and-the-waf--02 > > ŒWOMEN to reclaim public spaces: > a programme of defiance and > resistance.¹ That is how the Women¹s Action > Forum defined the meeting > it held last Friday to mobilise public opinion > against extremism. > > Although WAF¹s concern to protect the space women have > created in the > public mainstream has been on its agenda for some time, this > goal has > acquired urgency in the wake of the events in Swat. The > Nizam-i-Adl > Regulation in Malakand Division has brought people face to face > with > the ugly reality of the Talibanisation phenomenon in the rural > > backwaters as well as in modern urban centres. > > The Karachi meeting was > well-attended by WAF¹s standards. It is not > easy to mobilise women for any > cause in this city of multiple > identities. The metropolis has a diversity of > populations, cultures, > languages and economic interests posing a challenge > to bring women > together on a single platform. Learning from its experience > of the > lawyers¹ movement that had succeeded in uniting the extreme right > and > centrist political parties and the professionals on a single-point > > agenda for two years, WAF also decided to make Talibanisation and > women the > focal issue. > > That strategy paid off. Women had already been galvanised by > the > video showing the flogging of a teenaged girl in Swat that activist > > Samar Minallah courageously brought to the world media¹s attention, > invoking > in the process the wrath of the Taliban whose fatwa declared > her as wajibul > qatl. The oppression of women is an issue that cuts > across classes to touch > every female raw nerve. Whether it is the > smartly turned-out high-society > woman or the working woman who slaves > all day long to feed an army of > children and a drug-addict husband or > even the heavily veiled orthodox > woman, each type, with few > exceptions, has expressed her horror at the > flogging incident. > > Hence on this occasion WAF managed to bring a diverse > crowd together > ‹ the activists reaching out to the grassroots such as Amar > Sindhu > from Sindh University Hyderabad, Parveen Rahman from the Orangi > Pilot > Project and Sadiqa Salahuddin whose Indus Resource Centre runs > > schools in the interior of Sindh, as well as the elites sitting side > by side > with the three van-loads of women from Neelum Colony who > clean the homes of > the rich and will be starting their adult literacy > classes from next week, > courtesy Shabina¹s Garage School. > > The variety of speakers focusing on the > theme of women¹s oppression > by the Taliban found a responsive audience. But > the question that > made many ponder was: what next? Can this interest be > sustained? If > they had not already started probing for answers, the > thought- > provoking speech by Arundhati Roy, the renowned Indian writer and > > activist, did the trick. Coming from New Delhi on a solidarity > mission to > WAF¹s meeting. Roy raised four issues: > > € What do we mean by the Taliban > and what gave birth to them? > > € Define your own space and do not surrender > it. > > € Don¹t allow yourself to be forced into making choices of the Œwith > > us or against us¹ type. > > € Don¹t be selective in your injustices. > > These > should provide food for thought for those struggling against > oppression. > Without being specific, Roy exhorted her audience to look > into the > structures and systems that lead to a situation of such > extreme oppression, > some of which is rooted in the class conflict. > She believes one has to take > a Œtotal view¹ of the matter, which she > admitted she had come to Pakistan to > understand. > > The fact is that we live in a largely grey area where the > lines are > not sharply drawn. There is a lot of overlapping between issues > > touching gender, class, ethnicity, culture, political power and > economic > gains. It is this reality one has to recognise and see how > the > contradictions can be addressed. The demand to take sides > unambiguously, > expressed so vividly in the days following 9/11 by > George Bush as ŒYou are > with us or against us,¹ can create a dilemma > for people when negotiating > these grey areas. > > Roy¹s advice to avoid being Œwith us or against us¹ has > implications > she didn¹t elucidate. In times when action is needed and a > position > has to be taken ‹ even if verbally ‹ inaction or neutrality > > unwittingly props up the status quo. If the status quo has been > created by > inimical forces ostensibly now fighting their self-created > Frankenstein, > where does one go? > > The practical approach would be to prioritise > strategies that can be > adapted to changing circumstances. And what should > these be? Here Roy > has a point when she says that one cannot be selective in > the > justices one espouses and the injustices one denounces. In this > > context Pakistanis find themselves trapped between the devil and the > deep > sea. Attempting to rectify a problem here and another there > really doesn¹t > help because our entire state structure is colonial, > as a booklet titled > Making Pakistan a Tenable State points out. > > Produced by 17 intellectuals, > with Dr Mubashir Hasan as the driving > force, the book describes the state > structure as being Œbased on the > concentration of political and > administrative power in the steel > frame of the civil services under the > protection of the armed forces. > The structure could be defined as > feudal-military-bureaucratic.¹ > > The problem is systemic. In a state ruled > by Œa government of the > elites, by the elites, for the elites¹ it is > inevitable that it is > authoritarian and exploitative. Change can come when > there is > mobilisation of the people for change. When WAF mobilises women > to > fight against injustices it prepares them to also fight for change. > The > need is to empower them and instill confidence in them. > > Two women I have > written about who are fighting for change come from > the poorest of the poor > and theirs is not a feminist agenda. They are > fighting to have a roof above > their heads. One is the wife of Walidad > from Muhammad Essa Khaskheli who > came all the way to Karachi in the > heat of summer to save her goth from > being snapped up by a feudal in > the neighbourhood. > > The other is Parveen > whose one-room Œmansion¹ in a katchi abadi of > Clifton is now under threat of > demolition. She is resisting the > exploitative system that cannot provide > shelter to the poor. > Initially she hesitated ‹ was it Œproper¹ for a woman > to protest she > had asked me. When encouraged she decided it was. These are > women on > the way to empowerment and that is WAF¹s agenda. > > 2. > > ŒI¹m > here to understand what you mean by Taliban¹ > by Salman Siddiqui > Friday, 08 > May, 2009 > > http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/ > > pakistan/arundhati-roy-sal-02 > > Is there a threat of Talibanisation > engulfing the entire region? > > I think it has already engulfed our region. I > think there¹s a need > for a very clear thinking (on this issue of > Talibanisation). In > India, there are two kinds of terrorism: one is Islamic > terrorism and > the other Maoist terrorism. But this term terrorism, we must > ask, > what do they mean by it. > > In Pakistan, I¹m here to understand what > they mean by this term. When > we say we must fight the Taliban or must defeat > them, what does it > mean? I¹m here to understand what you mean when you say > Taliban. Do > you mean a militant? Do you mean an ideology? Exactly what is it > that > is being fought? That needs to be clarified. > > I think both needs to > be fought. But if it¹s an ideology it has to be > fought differently, while if > it¹s a person with a gun then it has to > be fought differently. We know from > the history of the war on terror > that a military strategy is only making > matters worse all over the > world. The war on terror has made the world a > more dangerous place. > In India, they have been fighting insurgencies > military since 1947 > and it has become a more dangerous place. > > Swat and > the Taliban boy > > It is very important for me to understand what exactly is > going in > Swat. How did it start? A Taliban boy asked me why women can¹t be > > like plastic bags and banned. The point is that the plastic bag was > made in > a factory but so was the boy. He was made in a factory that > is producing > this kind of mind(set). (The question is) who owns that > factory, who funds > it? Unless we deal with that factory, dealing with > the boy doesn¹t help > us. > > Water is the main issue > > One danger in Pakistan is that we talk > about the threat of Taliban so > much that other important issues lose focus. > In my view, the problem > of water in the world will become the most important > problem. I > think big dams are economically unviable, environmentally > > unsustainable and politically undemocratic. They are a way of taking > away a > river from the poor and giving it to the rich. Like in India, > there¹s an > issue of SEZs (Special Economic Zones), whereby the land > of the people are > given to corporations. But the bigger problem is > that there are making dams > and giving water to the industries. This > way the people who live in villages > by the streams and rivers have no > water for themselves. So building dams is > one of the most > ecologically destructive things that you can do. > > Fight > over Siachen glacier > > There are thousands of Pakistani and Indian soldiers > deployed on the > Siachen glacier. Both of our countries are spending billions > of > dollars on high altitude warfare and weapons. The whole of the > Siachen > glacier is sort of an icy monument to human folly. Each day > it is being > filled with ice axes, old boots, tents and so on. > Meanwhile, that > battlefield is melting. Siachen glacier is about half > its size now. It¹s not > melting because the Indian and Pakistani > soldiers are on it. But it¹s > because people somewhere on the other > side of the world are leading a good > lifeŠ.in countries that call > themselves democracies that believe in human > rights and free speech. > Their economies depend on selling weapons to both of > us. Now, when > that glacier melts, there will be floods first, then there > will be a > drought and then we¹ll have even more reasons to fight. We¹ll > buy > more weapons from those democracies and in this way human beings will > > prove themselves to be the stupidest animals on earth. > > Money and the > Indian elections > > Whatever system of government you have, whether it is a > military > dictatorship or a democracy, and you have that for a long time, > > eventually big money manages to subvert it. That has begun to happen > even in > a democracy (like India). For example, political parties need > a lot of > publicity, but the media is also run by corporate money. If > you look at the > big political parties like the Congress and the BJP, > you see how much money > is being put out just in their advertising > budgets. Now where does all that > come from? > > RSS and the Indian establishment > > The RSS has infiltrated > everything to a great extent. In India, we > have 120-150 million Muslims and > it¹s considered a minorityŠIt¹s > impossible to not belong to a minority of > some sort in India. Caste > or ethnicity or religion or whatever, in some way > everyone belongs to > a minority. The fights that many of us are waging > against the RSS and > against the BJP are to say that we live in a society > which > accommodates everybody. Everybody doesn¹t have to love everybody, > but > everybody has to be accommodated. The RSS has infiltrated the > > (Indian) army as much as various kinds of Wahabism or other kinds of > > religious ideology have infiltrated the ISI or the armed forces in > Pakistan. > They are human beings like everyone else and they too get > influenced. > > > Indian media and sensationalizing of news coming out from Pakistan > > I think > the media in both countries play this game. Whenever > something happens here, > they hype it up there, while when something > happens there, they hype the > news here. We say that we live in times > of an information revolution and > free press, but even then nobody > gets to know the complete pictureŠ > > The > Pakistani media is a little different from the Indian media. They > stand on a > slightly different foundation. But both share the problem > of a lack of > accountabilityŠThe trouble in India is that 90 per cent > of their revenue > comes from the corporate sectorŠthere¹s increasing > privatization and > corporatization of governance, education, health, > infrastructure and water > management. So in India you see an open > criticism of governance, but very > rarely criticism of corporations. > It¹s a structural problem. It¹s not about > good people or bad people. > It¹s just that you can¹t expect a company to work > against itself. > This is a very serious issue which needs to be sorted > out. > > Is the Indian army a sacred cow? > > The Indian army is quite a > sacred cow especially on TV and Bollywood. > But at the same time if you talk > to the people in the Indian army, > they say that they feel that the media is > very critical of them. I > don¹t share that view. I think it is a sacred cow. > People are willing > to give them a lot of leeway. > > Women and their fight > for justice > > When women fight for justice, we must fight for every kind of > justiceŠ > We must fight for justice for men and justice for children. > Because > if you fight for one kind of justice and you tolerate another, > then > it¹s a pretty hollow fight. You may not be able to fight every > > battle, but you should be able to put yourself on the line and say I > believe > this. > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media > Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & > Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > Shuddhabrata > Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media > Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net _____ > ____________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on > media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To > unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List > archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From ayishaa at gmail.com Wed May 13 13:49:48 2009 From: ayishaa at gmail.com (Ayisha Abraham) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 13:49:48 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Please ignore previous mail, thanks Message-ID: <7357da570905130119r5babb675v4976b8df8a967a2b@mail.gmail.com> -- Ayisha Abraham 002 Serena # 2 Lloyd Road Cooke Town Bangalore 560005 tele: 91-80-25464058 From jeebesh at sarai.net Wed May 13 13:36:40 2009 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 13:36:40 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Strike In-Reply-To: <96c0bb200905130040g45eb277ue3bc36d897a7f3d5@mail.gmail.com> References: <96c0bb200905120859l7b19eddanc08e19b69e22fbd9@mail.gmail.com> <96c0bb200905130040g45eb277ue3bc36d897a7f3d5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: dear Faiz, Workplaces are extremely difficult places to comprehend. The daily acts of negotiations are multiple and multifarious. I would caution a polarity of individual as opposed to mass or collective actions. The collective as a body is constantly produced and disaggregates and is intricately mediated. It's visible forms are few and strike or dharna or demonstration gives some visibility. But visibility is at times extremely threatening to the formation and sustained survival of collective forces. How do we judge effectiveness anyway? Strike has not been effective for years now. A careful analysis of Bombay Textile Strike (the most recorded in recent history) led to closure of the mills. In normal complicated juridical process retrenching so many workers would have taken years. The strike accelerated the process. The problem is that Strike / or mass forms are easily recognizable and allows for solidarity associations by activists and intellectuals and they then withdraw from any sustained evaluation of the effectivity of strikes. It will be important to think this through. The daily acts keeps the negotiation open in all workspace. To understand the effectivity, we would have to develop conceptual tools. But like once a worker militant rhetorically asked " why you need to understand the effectivity?, those who are in the heat of workspace knows and evaluates, wins and loses. Then why know about it and make the management more aware of these acts". It's is a very complicated argument. Call center workers are workers, so are programmers in info companies. We live in an increasingly generalized economy of wage-workers. warmly jeebesh On 13-May-09, at 1:10 PM, faiz ullah wrote: > Dear Shuddha and Jeebesh, > > As opposed to collective or mass action, one also gets to hear a lot > of > incidents of individual resistance. I know of a couple of people who > work at the call centres in Bombay (don't know if they qualify as > 'workers'?) who intentionally drop calls or go out for longer > breaks, off > their work stations, than they're permitted to. > > I have come across (or read about) similar experiences in other > industries > also, and efforts made by managements to contain them with increased > surveillence and ingenious rules and regulations. How do we measure > the > effectiveness of these 'acts', and if there's a point in doing that, > then > should we even be making an attempt? Wouldn't that amount to > 'outing' and > weakening such efforts. It's kind of a catch-22 situation...just > thinking > aloud. > > Hope to hear and discuss a lot more... > > Regards, > > Faiz > > On Wed, May 13, 2009 at 11:49 AM, Jeebesh wrote: > >> dear Faiz, >> >> It maybe worthwhile to see the corresponding figures on Lockouts. >> >> From 80s onwards lockouts had become a major weapon of bullying >> workers and has been used very often by companies. Strikes are >> sometimes disguised lockouts. Workers reluctance to go on strikes has >> something to do with this realizations. I had studied this in the >> period of late 80s and 90s. The trend seem to be similar. >> >> warmly >> jeebesh >> >> On 12-May-09, at 9:29 PM, faiz ullah wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> Instances of strike in India have been coming down year after year. >>> About >>> 800 in '94, 250 in '04 and about 170 in the 2008. What could be the >>> factors? >>> Is it because there's growing insecurity amongst workers, given that >>> a lot >>> of companies are using recession as an alibi to put more pressure on >>> their >>> workers? But this is more recent. Have trade unions become weaker? >>> Or things >>> have simply been getting better? >>> >>> >>> " Nestle strike creates fear in other factories" >>> http://www.business-standard.com/india/storypage.php?autono=357625 >>> >>> >>> Was eating Maggi...and wondering if this strike is going to have a >>> ripple >>> effect as this report speculates. Also, reporting in businees news >>> media >>> always plays up words like 'trouble' and 'militancy'. Why aren't >>> labour >>> issues part of the agneda...aren't they a part of the 'business'? >>> >>> >>> 'Labour militancy back in India?' >>> http://www.rediff.com/money/2006/jan/12guest.htm >>> "They say Japanese managements have hardly made any effort to learn >>> how to >>> deal with India's highly politicised unions, which traditionally >>> take an >>> anti-management stance for their survival. In Japan, the culture is >>> completely different. For instance, the relationship between a >>> labour union >>> and the company management is generally very close in Japan." >>> Workers must be really happy with their employers in Japan then! >>> >>> Faiz >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > -- > faiz > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed May 13 14:56:14 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 02:26:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] APJ letter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <894551.6662.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Rakesh   India is not a Nation-State which I think is also your understanding.   Calling India a Nation-State is a (Oh! so very casually) much favoured definition of India used by many on this list usually accompanied by some or the other kind of attack or dismissal of India.   India is a composite of various ethnicities, languages, cultures, religions etc etc etc etc. India is not a Nation-State.   Your altered term State-Nation is interesting but India is just simply a  is a country. There are other countries in the world. The world is distributed (as of now) into territorial units called countries with areas of common use by common consent amongst the countries.   If there is a loose interpretation of the term Nation-State to be used for India, then by that reckoning every country is a Nation-State (or State-Nation)   This is not a criticsm but additional comments from me.   You wrote """" ..... nation-states are a reality (or state-nation in case of India if I may say so), which can not be washed away. However, this does not mean that we should go around being nationalists. Nationalism is not going to solve the problems of our people (by this I mean the people of our nation/state here). """""""   What is wrong with being a Nationalist? What else would you like the citizens of a country to be if not nationalists? How else can one be sensitive to every 'ill/need' in the country no matter how far removed you are from it?   If being a Nationalist is just simply a slogan it is a meaningless one.   If being a Nationalist means promoting 'Nationalism' that defines it as being particular to only one single group in India (making India into a singular identity Nation-State, then such Nationalism is to be condemned because that can only lead to fragmentation of India and therefore there is nothing Nationalist about it.    Completely disagreeing with what you have written, Nationalism is a good vehicle through which to address (solving is at a distance) the problems of the country. If you are not a Nationalist, you cannot be aware of or sensitive to the composite nature of India.   Does the concept of the Nation have primacy over any other consideration? Yes, to my mind, it does have.   This does not mean (without going into specific examples) that wherever there is a 'substantive conflict with the Nation' to be found that there should be unthinking repression of such conflicting positions in the name of Primacy of the Nation. My reasoning for that is quite simple and goes back to True Nationalism being aware of and sensitive to the composites. You cannot in the name of the Nation, act or speak in a manner that creates turmoil or breaks up the Nation. That is not being Nationalist.   Only the elements of Nature and the Forces of Nature do not respect the boundaries of Nations/Countries. Every other interaction between the people of the world is through National/Country identities.    It amuses me when people talk derisively and disparagingly about Nationalists.   These very people talk about the ills of globalisation and rightly so.   The 'World is one Village' is a promotion that best suits the Multinational Entities who seek Profits/Control all over the globe ignoring  considerations of what toll this extracting of Profits takes. Only a Nationalist attitude can serve as shield against this.   I am glad that I am a Nationalist.   Kshmendra --- On Tue, 5/12/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: From: Rakesh Iyer Subject: Re: [Reader-list] APJ letter To: "bipin" Cc: "sarai-list" , "c-positive group" Date: Tuesday, May 12, 2009, 10:06 PM Dear Bipin (and all) I agree and yet also not agree with what Mr. Kalam has said in the above speech. Let me elaborate on what I agree and on what I don't agree. Kalam jee was chosen the president by the BJP, and ironically also has views which are also very closely related to the BJP's views on how the people of India should be: hardcore nationalists. I can understand that in today's times, nation-states are a reality (or state-nation in case of India if I may say so), which can not be washed away. However, this does not mean that we should go around being nationalists. Nationalism is not going to solve the problems of our people (by this I mean the people of our nation/state here). I agree with Kalam jee when he says that Indians tend to crib about things rather than doing something about it. And that is one of the reasons I personally believe that the present elections, the idea of exhorting middle classes to just go out and vote is of no use, particularly since voting in itself is no end. It is just one of the means to achieve the end, which is development. And all these campaigns don't focus on educating our citizens to actually make the politicians more accountable, the system more accountable, the bureaucrats and the judiciary more accountable. Hence, even if the voting is 100%, it's useless. He is also right, that let us start doing things rather than chitchatting among ourselves. Equally the view that people should first set themselves as example before exhorting others is equally true. However, unlike him, I don't wish to do this to make India a strong nation or a superpower. Far from it. I want to do this because it would ultimatley help the people of India. We have all seen what a superpower is, in the form of America. We have seen how since 2000 to 2008, it has misused whatever the power it had, right from the response to 11th September 2001, to Bush's farewell being celebrated as it led to the rise of Obama. We have equally seen the tragedies of a scale unseen in earlier conflicts in Afghanistan and Iraq. And now, the Af-Pak region is more unsafe than it was in 2001 (Don't forget the fact that the real reason it is unsafe is because of the Taliban, another US-ISI creation). And I don't think we are going to be anyhow different from them. The best example is our cricket board, the richest cricket boards out of all in the world (i.e. the nations in which cricket is played). I still remember how during 2008, we had the 'Monkey' controversy, where it was alleged that Harbhajan Singh, one of our cricket players, had called Andrew Symonds, an Australian player 'monkey'. The ironic part is that from what transpired out, it was stated that actually Harbhajan had said 'maa ki' (which means he was abusing Symonds' mother) rather than 'monkey' (him for his looks or may be one can say race). And then, to add to our cricket team's dismay, we had three wrong decisions taken against us. But how did we respond? We had Sharad Pawar, a mainstream politician heading the BCCI then (he still heads now). Under him, the BCCI stated that we will come back off the tour if the decision is not taken to our satisfaction. Nobody has ever blackmailed the ICC for this. What's more, we asked the umpires to be changed. Never before in a test match series has this ever happened. But we all managed this, because we had money. And what's more, the people around me were saying that we are a cricketing superpower, we are the richest board in the world, we can and should do as we please. If this is what we will do as a cricketing superpower, God knows what we can do as a political superpower like say America. Therefore, I am genuinely not interested in seeing India as a superpower which dictates to other nations, loses their trust and friendship, and makes the lives of people across the world that much more difficult. Secondly, since Kalam jee is talking about a developed nation, I think he should equally define development. The reason is that different people have different conceptions of development. And all these have to be taken into consideration before we come to certain conclusions. For me, the development we wish to carry about, with SEZ's and opening up of the economy without looking at its' impact on the rural India and helping the poor and the downtrodden, is of no use and we should stop it, and change or modify it so that all are benefited. It is tough, but certainly it would be better. On a positive note, I agree with his point that we have to look at positivity as well. But that does not mean one neglects issues of injustice, including that injustice being meted out to Palestinians by the Israeli attacks. Positivity is not there because our system is really in a mess and we are not doing a thing about it. I remember Shahrukh Khan from Swades who says ' agar hum sab kehte rahe ki yeh desh barbaad ho jayega, to ek din yeh desh wakai mein barbaad ho jayega. aur is ke zimmedar mai hoonga, aap honge, aap sab, hum sab.' And finally, it is not necessary for every citizen to think what he/she has done for India. In Ashoka and Akbar's rule, there was no India, and yet they helped the people. So, it's the state's responsibility to help its people, for after all it is formed with their support. Regarding their duties, it's to monitor whether the state is giving adequate help or not, ensure adequate help is given at all times, and to modify and change the way that help is required if needed. So therefore, no need for people to think what they have done for India compulsorily, although if someone thinks about it (like Shahrukh in Swades), I am happy. (Not that I am sad if someone doesn't, at least he discharges his duty (or even she), that is fine). Regards Rakesh _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From vedavati_jogi at yahoo.com Wed May 13 14:55:43 2009 From: vedavati_jogi at yahoo.com (Vedavati Jogi) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 14:55:43 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] APJ letter Message-ID: <160623.71188.qm@web94713.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Rakeshji,   Firstly, Dr. Kalam is a great scientist and the most loved & admired president of India. If you feel that BJP supported him for presidentship because he is a Muslim then I am sorry to say so but 'You are mentally bankrupt'.  I remember, Sayed Shahabuddin -socalled leader of a socalled secular party had published an article in Indian Express stating that 'Dr. Kalam can not be considered as Muslim'. (Naturally because Dr. Kalam is a truely secular person ) Thus it can be proved that supporting Dr. Kalam can not be the act of Muslim appeasement.    In your  mail I find many hidden examples of Muslim appeasement.   e.g. You feel Terrorism can't be countered by Nationalism. Is it because terrorists are Muslims.? If so. then is it not an act of appeasement?  I must say our Fauji bhai who are guarding our country for 24 hrs are fools because they are making supreme sacrifices for ungrateful seculars like you. Instead they should invite terrorists who happen to be Pakistanis (hence Muslims) to invade our country. What must have prompted Sandeep Unnikrishnan and many more to sacrifice their lives for this country? Do you think it was 'Internationalism?'    You say, Terrorism can only be countered down at the roots. Can you elaborate your point? Lets take example of Kasab - why did he kill so many Indians? What is the root cause?  I am sure you will give me examples of 'Ayodhya' and "Gujrat'. which happened in 1992 and 2002 (in which  200 Hindus have also died which you would like to ignore) .   I have many times heard these secular talks that 'Ayodhya'  and 'Gujrat' are the reasons behind terrorism and bomb-blasts. In that case I would like to remind all seculars of 1000 years of Muslim rule in which crores of Hindus were converted forcibly,   killed, plundered...............That was not enough for them hence they  partitioned this ancient country in 1947, that time 2 crore Hindus were thrown out of  Pakistan, lakhs of Hindus were killed, I would not like to even mention the plight of Hindu women folks. If we decide to apply same 'secular' logic then don't you think these reasons are more than enough for Hindus to destroy whole Pakistan?   Nothing can be more important than nationalism. And if Indian citizens are really sensible,   then they should never vote for those parties who are ready to make any sort of compromise on nationalism ( ofcourse under the pretext of practising secularism).   Vedavati     --- On Wed, 13/5/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: From: Rakesh Iyer Subject: Re: [Reader-list] APJ letter To: "bipin" Cc: "sarai-list" <> Date: Wednesday, 13 May, 2009, 3:38 PM Dear Bipin jee (and all) Let me clarify certain points and also add further more. First of all, sorry as I had stated that Kalam jee had chosen president by the BJP. Yes he is chosen by the electoral college, so I am sorry about that. Having said that, I can't forget the conditions under which the BJP decided to support him (his name was first thrown into the ring by the Samajwadi Party, but nobody talked about that when the BJP supported him). We had had Godhra and the post-Godhra pogrom, and a brilliant way of Muslim appeasement was practiced by the BJP and the then-ruling NDA by introducing his name at a time, when they were confused about Krishna kant and P.C.Alexander themselves. (And the Congress further proved it is equal to this task by supporting his candidature) Secondly, Bipin jee, I can understand your problem. For you, whatever supports your point is relevant, rest all is irrelevant. Waise if you felt my arguments were irrelevant, you should not have replied back at all. Probably it struck you too strongly. My sympathies in that case. Thirdly, unlike your belief, terrorism can't be countered with nationalism (it's like saying that terror can be struck with counter-terror, remembering Shuddha jee's post here). Terrorism can only be countered down at the roots. Nationalism is not what its root is. Israel has been trying to eradicate terrorism since the last 50 years, without success (and Israel is more nationalistic than India). And now we will have the Modis and Advanis doing the same. Forget the root cause, you have never even spoken about reforming our police and judiciary and their functioning to see that at least such cases are solved at the earliest in a proper manner. For your kind information, Tagore jee was also against nationalism, and he even argued with Gandhi about it. (Gandhi had said that nationalism is ok if it leads to internationalism, Tagore said this is crap). And we all know what happened to Japan during the Second World War which it joined in the name of nationalism. Not going far, go and find about the Hirakud dam oustees who were asked to sacrifice their land for a 'nationalist' cause. Fourthly, I am taking this speech into consideration along with his previous speeches which he made as a president, when he used to say that India has to be turned into a developed nation by 2020. And in Bhopal, he even claimed we have to become a superpower (he visited Bhopal around Independence Day in 2002, if I am not wrong). May be it's not written in his speech, but looking at the kind of profession he was in and the goals he has stated, he believes in nationalism like you, and so such views are not surprising. My problem is that we all know how the US behaved as a superpower. So I don't wish to see India doing that. Fifthly, the US is not just a financial superpower sir. It's a military superpower too. No nation in the world has got the kind of arms, and technical superiority in defence arms which the US has, although other nations are trying to achieve that. It's on this basis that it undertook a campaign in Iraq, virtually bulldozing all opposition against this even in the UN. And looking at our record in other areas, I dont' see any reason why we would behave differently from them if we were in their position. Sixthly, the kind of development paradigm we are undertaking today has to be debated. Neither Kalam nor you have mentioned what is this development paradigm they believe in. If it's the current paradigm which has made the US developed, I am against it as it would only lead to destruction on a global scale involving death of millions of innocent people and further breeding of terrorism. Therefore, it is better that we first of all discuss about that rather than tripping over people voting on development. Seventhly, if you think people vote for development, go and find out what that development means for them. Probably you can also be for a shock, if you find that Dalits in many parts think development just means that no upper caste man attacks their women. They don't want education, health or even good roads, they just want security. And security in itself is development for them! So traditionally in India, people have voted for development and continue to do so, it's just that the meaning of development is different for different people. Eighth. First we should look at ourselves before pointing fingers at others (Said by Mahatma Gandhi, Jesus Christ, and probably so many others before I state this here again). The Indian state has unleashed injustice on so many people, be it through fake encounters, through prostitution, through lack of implementing prohibition, through improper governance and massive corruption, through schemes which ensured mass displacement of people without proper rehabilitation, and through mechanisms which ensured people didn't get justice at the proper place at the proper time. Moreover, people have not been able to lead their lives through dignity as well. What about that? Before looking at Taliban and Pakistan, let us look at our own state apparatus. Ninth. You say that it's not the state's responsibility. I believe it is. The Indian state destroyed mechanisms and norms which had developed in our villages on a self-decided basis there itself, regarding how are the resources to be managed and consumed, how is agriculture to be carried out, how will water be saved for the dry summer months, and so on. The Indian state penetrated each and every area where villages had been governed on a self-government basis, and now all these areas have seen no development due to massive corruption and centralization of powers, rather than proper decentralization. Therefore, it's not me, but the very Indian state, which has accepted that it's the state's responsibility to provide for its citizens. And when it fails, I will criticize it, whether you like it or not. If you think it's wrong, ask the govt. to decentralize the powers and functioning areas so that villages can manage themselves properly in a more democratic manner. Would be better for the villagers too. Moreover, even going by your logic, if industrialization, R & D development and infrastructure development have to be undertaken, the policies for these are formulated by the govt, and hence indirectly or directly, it's the Indian state which is responsible for the plight of its citizens. Sir, you have pronounced my ideas as irrelevant. I would not do that. I respect people's views. So, let others decide whether your ideas are irrelevant or not. Same for mine as well. Regards Rakesh _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Now surf faster and smarter ! Check out the new Firefox 3 - Yahoo! Edition http://downloads.yahoo.com/in/firefox/?fr=om_email_firefox From vedavati_jogi at yahoo.com Wed May 13 15:05:34 2009 From: vedavati_jogi at yahoo.com (Vedavati Jogi) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 15:05:34 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Arundhati Roy in Karachi Message-ID: <748169.89129.qm@web94716.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Dear All, I am thrilled to know that 'contact between  sections of the armed forces and the Hindutva 'Parivar' is not  exactly a figure of fancy' .   Yes ! This is the need of the hour! Jay ho Fauji Bhai! Vedavati --- On Wed, 13/5/09, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Arundhati Roy in Karachi To: "Pawan Durani" Cc: "reader-list at sarai.net list" <> Date: Wednesday, 13 May, 2009, 2:38 PM Dear All, The statement attributed to Ms. Roy comes from a reporters summary in  the Dawn newspaper of her interactions at the Karachi Womens Action  Forum meeting. While its exact contents do need to be verified, the  fact that there is a synergy between the broader Hindutva  'Parivar' (Family) and sections of the armed forces in India (just as  there is between Islamists and broad sections of the military  estabishment in Pakistan, which the report does refer to) should not  in itself be seen as surprising. Perhaps memories are short, but the 'Abhinav Bharat' episode and the  Malegaon Blast case, in which a serving miiitary intelligence officer  Col. S.P. Purohit is one of the accused (and whose involvement in the  attack on the Samjhauta Train to Pakistan is also under  invesitgation) is an indication of the fact that contact between  sections of the armed forces and the Hindutva 'Parivar' is not  exactly a figure of fancy. As of now, the murky realities of the  Malegaon case suggests that we only know the tip of an iceberg. And finally, is there a problem in spelling a person's name as it  should be spelled, or has Pawan Durani been somehow rendered  incapable of such a simple task? Have we come to such a pass that  along with everything else, this list will now also have to undertake  the burden of conducting object lessons in orthography and spelling? regards, Shuddha On 13-May-09, at 11:27 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > I am surprised ....."RSS has inflitrated the Indian  > Army" ........What are the basis on which such a general statement  > is made by Aran-Dhat-Tri-Ki-Roy ? > > Pawan > > On Wed, May 13, 2009 at 8:07 AM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta  > wrote: > Dear All, > > The Delhi based writer Arundhati Roy has recently been in Karachi, > Pakistan at the invitation of civil society organizations and womens > rights groups. Here are two reports from Dawn, a Karachi based daily, > about meetings she attended (with an organization titled 'Womens > Action Forum') and interactions she had. I hope that they will be of > interest to people on the list. > > regards, > > Shuddha > ------------------------------ > 1. > > Arundhati Roy and the WAF > By Zubeida Mustafa > Wednesday, 13 May, 2009 > http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/ > pakistan/11-arundhati-roy-and-the-waf--02 > > ‘WOMEN to reclaim public spaces: a programme of defiance and > resistance.’ That is how the Women’s Action Forum defined the meeting > it held last Friday to mobilise public opinion against extremism. > > Although WAF’s concern to protect the space women have created in the > public mainstream has been on its agenda for some time, this goal has > acquired urgency in the wake of the events in Swat. The Nizam-i-Adl > Regulation in Malakand Division has brought people face to face with > the ugly reality of the Talibanisation phenomenon in the rural > backwaters as well as in modern urban centres. > > The Karachi meeting was well-attended by WAF’s standards. It is not > easy to mobilise women for any cause in this city of multiple > identities. The metropolis has a diversity of populations, cultures, > languages and economic interests posing a challenge to bring women > together on a single platform. Learning from its experience of the > lawyers’ movement that had succeeded in uniting the extreme right and > centrist political parties and the professionals on a single-point > agenda for two years, WAF also decided to make Talibanisation and > women the focal issue. > > That strategy paid off. Women had already been galvanised by the > video showing the flogging of a teenaged girl in Swat that activist > Samar Minallah courageously brought to the world media’s attention, > invoking in the process the wrath of the Taliban whose fatwa declared > her as wajibul qatl. The oppression of women is an issue that cuts > across classes to touch every female raw nerve. Whether it is the > smartly turned-out high-society woman or the working woman who slaves > all day long to feed an army of children and a drug-addict husband or > even the heavily veiled orthodox woman, each type, with few > exceptions, has expressed her horror at the flogging incident. > > Hence on this occasion WAF managed to bring a diverse crowd together > — the activists reaching out to the grassroots such as Amar Sindhu > from Sindh University Hyderabad, Parveen Rahman from the Orangi Pilot > Project and Sadiqa Salahuddin whose Indus Resource Centre runs > schools in the interior of Sindh, as well as the elites sitting side > by side with the three van-loads of women from Neelum Colony who > clean the homes of the rich and will be starting their adult literacy > classes from next week, courtesy Shabina’s Garage School. > > The variety of speakers focusing on the theme of women’s oppression > by the Taliban found a responsive audience. But the question that > made many ponder was: what next? Can this interest be sustained? If > they had not already started probing for answers, the thought- > provoking speech by Arundhati Roy, the renowned Indian writer and > activist, did the trick. Coming from New Delhi on a solidarity > mission to WAF’s meeting. Roy raised four issues: > > • What do we mean by the Taliban and what gave birth to them? > > • Define your own space and do not surrender it. > > • Don’t allow yourself to be forced into making choices of the ‘with > us or against us’ type. > > • Don’t be selective in your injustices. > > These should provide food for thought for those struggling against > oppression. Without being specific, Roy exhorted her audience to look > into the structures and systems that lead to a situation of such > extreme oppression, some of which is rooted in the class conflict. > She believes one has to take a ‘total view’ of the matter, which she > admitted she had come to Pakistan to understand. > > The fact is that we live in a largely grey area where the lines are > not sharply drawn. There is a lot of overlapping between issues > touching gender, class, ethnicity, culture, political power and > economic gains. It is this reality one has to recognise and see how > the contradictions can be addressed. The demand to take sides > unambiguously, expressed so vividly in the days following 9/11 by > George Bush as ‘You are with us or against us,’ can create a dilemma > for people when negotiating these grey areas. > > Roy’s advice to avoid being ‘with us or against us’ has implications > she didn’t elucidate. In times when action is needed and a position > has to be taken — even if verbally — inaction or neutrality > unwittingly props up the status quo. If the status quo has been > created by inimical forces ostensibly now fighting their self-created > Frankenstein, where does one go? > > The practical approach would be to prioritise strategies that can be > adapted to changing circumstances. And what should these be? Here Roy > has a point when she says that one cannot be selective in the > justices one espouses and the injustices one denounces. In this > context Pakistanis find themselves trapped between the devil and the > deep sea. Attempting to rectify a problem here and another there > really doesn’t help because our entire state structure is colonial, > as a booklet titled Making Pakistan a Tenable State points out. > > Produced by 17 intellectuals, with Dr Mubashir Hasan as the driving > force, the book describes the state structure as being ‘based on the > concentration of political and administrative power in the steel > frame of the civil services under the protection of the armed forces. > The structure could be defined as feudal-military-bureaucratic.’ > > The problem is systemic. In a state ruled by ‘a government of the > elites, by the elites, for the elites’ it is inevitable that it is > authoritarian and exploitative. Change can come when there is > mobilisation of the people for change. When WAF mobilises women to > fight against injustices it prepares them to also fight for change. > The need is to empower them and instill confidence in them. > > Two women I have written about who are fighting for change come from > the poorest of the poor and theirs is not a feminist agenda. They are > fighting to have a roof above their heads. One is the wife of Walidad > from Muhammad Essa Khaskheli who came all the way to Karachi in the > heat of summer to save her goth from being snapped up by a feudal in > the neighbourhood. > > The other is Parveen whose one-room ‘mansion’ in a katchi abadi of > Clifton is now under threat of demolition. She is resisting the > exploitative system that cannot provide shelter to the poor. > Initially she hesitated — was it ‘proper’ for a woman to protest she > had asked me. When encouraged she decided it was. These are women on > the way to empowerment and that is WAF’s agenda. > >  2. > > ‘I’m here to understand what you mean by Taliban’ > by Salman Siddiqui > Friday, 08 May, 2009 > http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/ > pakistan/arundhati-roy-sal-02 > > Is there a threat of Talibanisation engulfing the entire region? > > I think it has already engulfed our region. I think there’s a need > for a very clear thinking (on this issue of Talibanisation). In > India, there are two kinds of terrorism: one is Islamic terrorism and > the other Maoist terrorism. But this term terrorism, we must ask, > what do they mean by it. > > In Pakistan, I’m here to understand what they mean by this term. When > we say we must fight the Taliban or must defeat them, what does it > mean? I’m here to understand what you mean when you say Taliban. Do > you mean a militant? Do you mean an ideology? Exactly what is it that > is being fought? That needs to be clarified. > > I think both needs to be fought. But if it’s an ideology it has to be > fought differently, while if it’s a person with a gun then it has to > be fought differently. We know from the history of the war on terror > that a military strategy is only making matters worse all over the > world. The war on terror has made the world a more dangerous place. > In India, they have been fighting insurgencies military since 1947 > and it has become a more dangerous place. > > Swat and the Taliban boy > > It is very important for me to understand what exactly is going in > Swat. How did it start? A Taliban boy asked me why women can’t be > like plastic bags and banned. The point is that the plastic bag was > made in a factory but so was the boy. He was made in a factory that > is producing this kind of mind(set). (The question is) who owns that > factory, who funds it? Unless we deal with that factory, dealing with > the boy doesn’t help us. > > Water is the main issue > > One danger in Pakistan is that we talk about the threat of Taliban so > much that other important issues lose focus. In my view, the problem > of water in the world will become the most important problem.  I > think big dams are economically unviable, environmentally > unsustainable and politically undemocratic. They are a way of taking > away a river from the poor and giving it to the rich. Like in India, > there’s an issue of SEZs (Special Economic Zones), whereby the land > of the people are given to corporations. But the bigger problem is > that there are making dams and giving water to the industries. This > way the people who live in villages by the streams and rivers have no > water for themselves. So building dams is one of the most > ecologically destructive things that you can do. > > Fight over Siachen glacier > > There are thousands of Pakistani and Indian soldiers deployed on the > Siachen glacier. Both of our countries are spending billions of > dollars on high altitude warfare and weapons. The whole of the > Siachen glacier is sort of an icy monument to human folly. Each day > it is being filled with ice axes, old boots, tents and so on. > Meanwhile, that battlefield is melting. Siachen glacier is about half > its size now. It’s not melting because the Indian and Pakistani > soldiers are on it. But it’s because people somewhere on the other > side of the world are leading a good life….in countries that call > themselves democracies that believe in human rights and free speech. > Their economies depend on selling weapons to both of us. Now, when > that glacier melts, there will be floods first, then there will be a > drought and then we’ll have even more reasons to fight. We’ll buy > more weapons from those democracies and in this way human beings will > prove themselves to be the stupidest animals on earth. > > Money and the Indian elections > > Whatever system of government you have, whether it is a military > dictatorship or a democracy, and you have that for a long time, > eventually big money manages to subvert it. That has begun to happen > even in a democracy (like India). For example, political parties need > a lot of publicity, but the media is also run by corporate money. If > you look at the big political parties like the Congress and the BJP, > you see how much money is being put out just in their advertising > budgets. Now where does all that come from? > > RSS and the Indian establishment > > The RSS has infiltrated everything to a great extent. In India, we > have 120-150 million Muslims and it’s considered a minority…It’s > impossible to not belong to a minority of some sort in India. Caste > or ethnicity or religion or whatever, in some way everyone belongs to > a minority. The fights that many of us are waging against the RSS and > against the BJP are to say that we live in a society which > accommodates everybody. Everybody doesn’t have to love everybody, but > everybody has to be accommodated.  The RSS has infiltrated the > (Indian) army as much as various kinds of Wahabism or other kinds of > religious ideology have infiltrated the ISI or the armed forces in > Pakistan. They are human beings like everyone else and they too get > influenced. > > Indian media and sensationalizing of news coming out from Pakistan > > I think the media in both countries play this game. Whenever > something happens here, they hype it up there, while when something > happens there, they hype the news here. We say that we live in times > of an information revolution and free press, but even then nobody > gets to know the complete picture… > > The Pakistani media is a little different from the Indian media. They > stand on a slightly different foundation. But both share the problem > of a lack of accountability…The trouble in India is that 90 per cent > of their revenue comes from the corporate sector…there’s increasing > privatization and corporatization of governance, education, health, > infrastructure and water management. So in India you see an open > criticism of governance, but very rarely criticism of corporations. > It’s a structural problem. It’s not about good people or bad people. > It’s just that you can’t expect a company to work against itself. > This is a very serious issue which needs to be sorted out. > > Is the Indian army a sacred cow? > > The Indian army is quite a sacred cow especially on TV and Bollywood. > But at the same time if you talk to the people in the Indian army, > they say that they feel that the media is very critical of them. I > don’t share that view. I think it is a sacred cow. People are willing > to give them a lot of leeway. > > Women and their fight for justice > > When women fight for justice, we must fight for every kind of justice… > We must fight for justice for men and justice for children. Because > if you fight for one kind of justice and you tolerate another, then > it’s a pretty hollow fight. You may not be able to fight every > battle, but you should be able to put yourself on the line and say I > believe this. > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with  > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Bollywood news, movie reviews, film trailers and more! Go to http://in.movies.yahoo.com/ From c.anupam at gmail.com Wed May 13 15:24:42 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 15:24:42 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] APJ letter In-Reply-To: <160623.71188.qm@web94713.mail.in2.yahoo.com> References: <160623.71188.qm@web94713.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <341380d00905130254nabf579ew83eadbdcc00ec6e6@mail.gmail.com> Vedavati jee, Thanks to people like you. even if farmers, diamond workers, road builders, tribals are suffering, you expect them to pay obeisance to a flag. you definately are a nationalist. you are jingoist, a fascist. you out there to settle scores with anyone that goes against your ideals. shame on you and your ideas about nationhood. -anupam On 5/13/09, Vedavati Jogi wrote: > Rakeshji, > > Firstly, > Dr. Kalam is a great scientist and the most loved & admired president of > India. If you feel that BJP supported him for presidentship because he is a > Muslim then I am sorry to say so but 'You are mentally bankrupt'. I > remember, Sayed Shahabuddin -socalled leader of a socalled secular party had > published an article in Indian Express stating that 'Dr. Kalam can not be > considered as Muslim'. (Naturally because Dr. Kalam is a truely secular > person ) Thus it can be proved that supporting Dr. Kalam can not be the act > of Muslim appeasement. > > In your mail I find many hidden examples of Muslim appeasement. > > e.g. You feel Terrorism can't be countered by Nationalism. Is it because > terrorists are Muslims.? If so. then is it not an act of appeasement? > I must say our Fauji bhai who are guarding our country for 24 hrs are fools > because they are making supreme sacrifices for ungrateful seculars like you. > Instead they should invite terrorists who happen to be Pakistanis (hence > Muslims) to invade our country. What must have prompted Sandeep Unnikrishnan > and many more to sacrifice their lives for this country? Do you think it was > 'Internationalism?' > > You say, Terrorism can only be countered down at the roots. Can you > elaborate your point? Lets take example of Kasab - why did he kill so many > Indians? What is the root cause? > I am sure you will give me examples of 'Ayodhya' and "Gujrat'. which > happened in 1992 and 2002 (in which 200 Hindus have also died which you > would like to ignore) . > I have many times heard these secular talks that 'Ayodhya' and 'Gujrat' > are the reasons behind terrorism and bomb-blasts. In that case I would like > to remind all seculars of 1000 years of Muslim rule in which crores of > Hindus were converted forcibly, killed, plundered...............That was > not enough for them hence they partitioned this ancient country in 1947, > that time 2 crore Hindus were thrown out of Pakistan, lakhs of Hindus were > killed, I would not like to even mention the plight of Hindu women folks. > If we decide to apply same 'secular' logic then don't you think these > reasons are more than enough for Hindus to destroy whole Pakistan? > > Nothing can be more important than nationalism. And if Indian citizens are > really sensible, > then they should never vote for those parties who are ready to make any > sort of compromise on nationalism ( ofcourse under the pretext of practising > secularism). > > Vedavati > > > > --- On Wed, 13/5/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > > > From: Rakesh Iyer > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] APJ letter > To: "bipin" > Cc: "sarai-list" <> > Date: Wednesday, 13 May, 2009, 3:38 PM > > > Dear Bipin jee (and all) > > Let me clarify certain points and also add further more. > > First of all, sorry as I had stated that Kalam jee had chosen > president by the BJP. Yes he is chosen by the electoral college, so I > am sorry about that. Having said that, I can't forget the conditions > under which the BJP decided to support him (his name was first thrown > into the ring by the Samajwadi Party, but nobody talked about that > when the BJP supported him). We had had Godhra and the post-Godhra > pogrom, and a brilliant way of Muslim appeasement was practiced by the > BJP and the then-ruling NDA by introducing his name at a time, when > they were confused about Krishna kant and P.C.Alexander themselves. > (And the Congress further proved it is equal to this task by > supporting his candidature) > > Secondly, Bipin jee, I can understand your problem. For you, whatever > supports your point is relevant, rest all is irrelevant. Waise if you > felt my arguments were irrelevant, you should not have replied back at > all. Probably it struck you too strongly. My sympathies in that case. > > Thirdly, unlike your belief, terrorism can't be countered with > nationalism (it's like saying that terror can be struck with > counter-terror, remembering Shuddha jee's post here). Terrorism can > only be countered down at the roots. Nationalism is not what its root > is. Israel has been trying to eradicate terrorism since the last 50 > years, without success (and Israel is more nationalistic than India). > And now we will have the Modis and Advanis doing the same. Forget the > root cause, you have never even spoken about reforming our police and > judiciary and their functioning to see that at least such cases are > solved at the earliest in a proper manner. > > For your kind information, Tagore jee was also against nationalism, > and he even argued with Gandhi about it. (Gandhi had said that > nationalism is ok if it leads to internationalism, Tagore said this is > crap). And we all know what happened to Japan during the Second World > War which it joined in the name of nationalism. Not going far, go and > find about the Hirakud dam oustees who were asked to sacrifice their > land for a 'nationalist' cause. > > Fourthly, I am taking this speech into consideration along with his > previous speeches which he made as a president, when he used to say > that India has to be turned into a developed nation by 2020. And in > Bhopal, he even claimed we have to become a superpower (he visited > Bhopal around Independence Day in 2002, if I am not wrong). May be > it's not written in his speech, but looking at the kind of profession > he was in and the goals he has stated, he believes in nationalism like > you, and so such views are not surprising. > > My problem is that we all know how the US behaved as a superpower. So > I don't wish to see India doing that. > > Fifthly, the US is not just a financial superpower sir. It's a > military superpower too. No nation in the world has got the kind of > arms, and technical superiority in defence arms which the US has, > although other nations are trying to achieve that. It's on this basis > that it undertook a campaign in Iraq, virtually bulldozing all > opposition against this even in the UN. And looking at our record in > other areas, I dont' see any reason why we would behave differently > from them if we were in their position. > > Sixthly, the kind of development paradigm we are undertaking today has > to be debated. Neither Kalam nor you have mentioned what is this > development paradigm they believe in. If it's the current paradigm > which has made the US developed, I am against it as it would only lead > to destruction on a global scale involving death of millions of > innocent people and further breeding of terrorism. Therefore, it is > better that we first of all discuss about that rather than tripping > over people voting on development. > > Seventhly, if you think people vote for development, go and find out > what that development means for them. Probably you can also be for a > shock, if you find that Dalits in many parts think development just > means that no upper caste man attacks their women. They don't want > education, health or even good roads, they just want security. And > security in itself is development for them! So traditionally in India, > people have voted for development and continue to do so, it's just > that the meaning of development is different for different people. > > Eighth. First we should look at ourselves before pointing fingers at > others (Said by Mahatma Gandhi, Jesus Christ, and probably so many > others before I state this here again). The Indian state has unleashed > injustice on so many people, be it through fake encounters, through > prostitution, through lack of implementing prohibition, through > improper governance and massive corruption, through schemes which > ensured mass displacement of people without proper rehabilitation, and > through mechanisms which ensured people didn't get justice at the > proper place at the proper time. Moreover, people have not been able > to lead their lives through dignity as well. What about that? Before > looking at Taliban and Pakistan, let us look at our own state > apparatus. > > Ninth. You say that it's not the state's responsibility. I believe it > is. The Indian state destroyed mechanisms and norms which had > developed in our villages on a self-decided basis there itself, > regarding how are the resources to be managed and consumed, how is > agriculture to be carried out, how will water be saved for the dry > summer months, and so on. The Indian state penetrated each and every > area where villages had been governed on a self-government basis, and > now all these areas have seen no development due to massive corruption > and centralization of powers, rather than proper decentralization. > > Therefore, it's not me, but the very Indian state, which has accepted > that it's the state's responsibility to provide for its citizens. And > when it fails, I will criticize it, whether you like it or not. If you > think it's wrong, ask the govt. to decentralize the powers and > functioning areas so that villages can manage themselves properly in a > more democratic manner. Would be better for the villagers too. > > Moreover, even going by your logic, if industrialization, R & D > development and infrastructure development have to be undertaken, the > policies for these are formulated by the govt, and hence indirectly or > directly, it's the Indian state which is responsible for the plight of > its citizens. > > Sir, you have pronounced my ideas as irrelevant. I would not do that. > I respect people's views. So, let others decide whether your ideas are > irrelevant or not. Same for mine as well. > > Regards > > Rakesh > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > Now surf faster and smarter ! Check out the new Firefox 3 - Yahoo! > Edition http://downloads.yahoo.com/in/firefox/?fr=om_email_firefox > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From jeebesh at sarai.net Wed May 13 15:43:14 2009 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 15:43:14 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] APJ letter In-Reply-To: <341380d00905130254nabf579ew83eadbdcc00ec6e6@mail.gmail.com> References: <160623.71188.qm@web94713.mail.in2.yahoo.com> <341380d00905130254nabf579ew83eadbdcc00ec6e6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3E83AED4-3250-40A4-A50E-8CE975CDB97C@sarai.net> Word of the Day for Wednesday, May 13, 2009 abnegate \AB-nih-gayt\, transitive verb: 1. To refuse or deny oneself; to reject; to renounce. 2. To give up (rights, claims, etc.); to surrender; to relinquish. An exaggerated veneration for an exceptional individual will allow worshippers "to abnegate responsibility, looking to the great man for salvation or for fulfilment" that we should work out for ourselves. -- Christina Hardyment, "The intoxicating allure of great men" review of Heroes: Saviors Traitors and Supermen by Lucy Hughes-Hallett, Independent, October 19, 2004 Adrift and divided, lacking intelligent leadership from the White House, the members of Congress have chosen to abnegate their constitutional responsibility in the hope that the blunt, crude mechanism of Gramm-Rudman will compensate for the failure of political will. -- Evan Thomas, "Look Ma! No hands!'", Time, December 23, 1985 Feed no more blossoms to the wind, abnegate the constellations, negate the sea and what is left of your world? What is left then? -- Alessandra Lynch, "Excommunication", American Poetry Review, July/ August 2003 Abnegate is a back-formation from abnegation, from Late Latin abnegatio, abnegation-, from Latin abnegare, "to refuse; to refute," from ab-, "away" + negare, "to deny." Dictionary.com Entry and Pronunciation for abnegate On 13-May-09, at 3:24 PM, anupam chakravartty wrote: > Vedavati jee, > > Thanks to people like you. even if farmers, diamond workers, road > builders, > tribals are suffering, you expect them to pay obeisance to a flag. you > definately are a nationalist. you are jingoist, a fascist. you out > there to > settle scores with anyone that goes against your ideals. shame on > you and > your ideas about nationhood. > > -anupam > > On 5/13/09, Vedavati Jogi wrote: > >> Rakeshji, >> >> Firstly, >> Dr. Kalam is a great scientist and the most loved & admired >> president of >> India. If you feel that BJP supported him for presidentship because >> he is a >> Muslim then I am sorry to say so but 'You are mentally bankrupt'. I >> remember, Sayed Shahabuddin -socalled leader of a socalled secular >> party had >> published an article in Indian Express stating that 'Dr. Kalam can >> not be >> considered as Muslim'. (Naturally because Dr. Kalam is a truely >> secular >> person ) Thus it can be proved that supporting Dr. Kalam can not be >> the act >> of Muslim appeasement. >> >> In your mail I find many hidden examples of Muslim appeasement. >> >> e.g. You feel Terrorism can't be countered by Nationalism. Is it >> because >> terrorists are Muslims.? If so. then is it not an act of appeasement? >> I must say our Fauji bhai who are guarding our country for 24 hrs >> are fools >> because they are making supreme sacrifices for ungrateful seculars >> like you. >> Instead they should invite terrorists who happen to be Pakistanis >> (hence >> Muslims) to invade our country. What must have prompted Sandeep >> Unnikrishnan >> and many more to sacrifice their lives for this country? Do you >> think it was >> 'Internationalism?' >> >> You say, Terrorism can only be countered down at the roots. Can you >> elaborate your point? Lets take example of Kasab - why did he kill >> so many >> Indians? What is the root cause? >> I am sure you will give me examples of 'Ayodhya' and "Gujrat'. which >> happened in 1992 and 2002 (in which 200 Hindus have also died >> which you >> would like to ignore) . >> I have many times heard these secular talks that 'Ayodhya' and >> 'Gujrat' >> are the reasons behind terrorism and bomb-blasts. In that case I >> would like >> to remind all seculars of 1000 years of Muslim rule in which crores >> of >> Hindus were converted forcibly, killed, >> plundered...............That was >> not enough for them hence they partitioned this ancient country in >> 1947, >> that time 2 crore Hindus were thrown out of Pakistan, lakhs of >> Hindus were >> killed, I would not like to even mention the plight of Hindu women >> folks. >> If we decide to apply same 'secular' logic then don't you think these >> reasons are more than enough for Hindus to destroy whole Pakistan? >> >> Nothing can be more important than nationalism. And if Indian >> citizens are >> really sensible, >> then they should never vote for those parties who are ready to make >> any >> sort of compromise on nationalism ( ofcourse under the pretext of >> practising >> secularism). >> >> Vedavati >> >> >> >> --- On Wed, 13/5/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: >> >> >> From: Rakesh Iyer >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] APJ letter >> To: "bipin" >> Cc: "sarai-list" <> >> Date: Wednesday, 13 May, 2009, 3:38 PM >> >> >> Dear Bipin jee (and all) >> >> Let me clarify certain points and also add further more. >> >> First of all, sorry as I had stated that Kalam jee had chosen >> president by the BJP. Yes he is chosen by the electoral college, so I >> am sorry about that. Having said that, I can't forget the conditions >> under which the BJP decided to support him (his name was first thrown >> into the ring by the Samajwadi Party, but nobody talked about that >> when the BJP supported him). We had had Godhra and the post-Godhra >> pogrom, and a brilliant way of Muslim appeasement was practiced by >> the >> BJP and the then-ruling NDA by introducing his name at a time, when >> they were confused about Krishna kant and P.C.Alexander themselves. >> (And the Congress further proved it is equal to this task by >> supporting his candidature) >> >> Secondly, Bipin jee, I can understand your problem. For you, whatever >> supports your point is relevant, rest all is irrelevant. Waise if you >> felt my arguments were irrelevant, you should not have replied back >> at >> all. Probably it struck you too strongly. My sympathies in that case. >> >> Thirdly, unlike your belief, terrorism can't be countered with >> nationalism (it's like saying that terror can be struck with >> counter-terror, remembering Shuddha jee's post here). Terrorism can >> only be countered down at the roots. Nationalism is not what its root >> is. Israel has been trying to eradicate terrorism since the last 50 >> years, without success (and Israel is more nationalistic than India). >> And now we will have the Modis and Advanis doing the same. Forget the >> root cause, you have never even spoken about reforming our police and >> judiciary and their functioning to see that at least such cases are >> solved at the earliest in a proper manner. >> >> For your kind information, Tagore jee was also against nationalism, >> and he even argued with Gandhi about it. (Gandhi had said that >> nationalism is ok if it leads to internationalism, Tagore said this >> is >> crap). And we all know what happened to Japan during the Second World >> War which it joined in the name of nationalism. Not going far, go and >> find about the Hirakud dam oustees who were asked to sacrifice their >> land for a 'nationalist' cause. >> >> Fourthly, I am taking this speech into consideration along with his >> previous speeches which he made as a president, when he used to say >> that India has to be turned into a developed nation by 2020. And in >> Bhopal, he even claimed we have to become a superpower (he visited >> Bhopal around Independence Day in 2002, if I am not wrong). May be >> it's not written in his speech, but looking at the kind of profession >> he was in and the goals he has stated, he believes in nationalism >> like >> you, and so such views are not surprising. >> >> My problem is that we all know how the US behaved as a superpower. So >> I don't wish to see India doing that. >> >> Fifthly, the US is not just a financial superpower sir. It's a >> military superpower too. No nation in the world has got the kind of >> arms, and technical superiority in defence arms which the US has, >> although other nations are trying to achieve that. It's on this basis >> that it undertook a campaign in Iraq, virtually bulldozing all >> opposition against this even in the UN. And looking at our record in >> other areas, I dont' see any reason why we would behave differently >> from them if we were in their position. >> >> Sixthly, the kind of development paradigm we are undertaking today >> has >> to be debated. Neither Kalam nor you have mentioned what is this >> development paradigm they believe in. If it's the current paradigm >> which has made the US developed, I am against it as it would only >> lead >> to destruction on a global scale involving death of millions of >> innocent people and further breeding of terrorism. Therefore, it is >> better that we first of all discuss about that rather than tripping >> over people voting on development. >> >> Seventhly, if you think people vote for development, go and find out >> what that development means for them. Probably you can also be for a >> shock, if you find that Dalits in many parts think development just >> means that no upper caste man attacks their women. They don't want >> education, health or even good roads, they just want security. And >> security in itself is development for them! So traditionally in >> India, >> people have voted for development and continue to do so, it's just >> that the meaning of development is different for different people. >> >> Eighth. First we should look at ourselves before pointing fingers at >> others (Said by Mahatma Gandhi, Jesus Christ, and probably so many >> others before I state this here again). The Indian state has >> unleashed >> injustice on so many people, be it through fake encounters, through >> prostitution, through lack of implementing prohibition, through >> improper governance and massive corruption, through schemes which >> ensured mass displacement of people without proper rehabilitation, >> and >> through mechanisms which ensured people didn't get justice at the >> proper place at the proper time. Moreover, people have not been able >> to lead their lives through dignity as well. What about that? Before >> looking at Taliban and Pakistan, let us look at our own state >> apparatus. >> >> Ninth. You say that it's not the state's responsibility. I believe it >> is. The Indian state destroyed mechanisms and norms which had >> developed in our villages on a self-decided basis there itself, >> regarding how are the resources to be managed and consumed, how is >> agriculture to be carried out, how will water be saved for the dry >> summer months, and so on. The Indian state penetrated each and every >> area where villages had been governed on a self-government basis, and >> now all these areas have seen no development due to massive >> corruption >> and centralization of powers, rather than proper decentralization. >> >> Therefore, it's not me, but the very Indian state, which has accepted >> that it's the state's responsibility to provide for its citizens. And >> when it fails, I will criticize it, whether you like it or not. If >> you >> think it's wrong, ask the govt. to decentralize the powers and >> functioning areas so that villages can manage themselves properly >> in a >> more democratic manner. Would be better for the villagers too. >> >> Moreover, even going by your logic, if industrialization, R & D >> development and infrastructure development have to be undertaken, the >> policies for these are formulated by the govt, and hence indirectly >> or >> directly, it's the Indian state which is responsible for the plight >> of >> its citizens. >> >> Sir, you have pronounced my ideas as irrelevant. I would not do that. >> I respect people's views. So, let others decide whether your ideas >> are >> irrelevant or not. Same for mine as well. >> >> Regards >> >> Rakesh >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: >> >> >> Now surf faster and smarter ! Check out the new Firefox 3 - >> Yahoo! >> Edition http://downloads.yahoo.com/in/firefox/?fr=om_email_firefox >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Wed May 13 15:46:27 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 15:46:27 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] APJ letter In-Reply-To: <160623.71188.qm@web94713.mail.in2.yahoo.com> References: <160623.71188.qm@web94713.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Vedavati Thank you very much for your epithets terming me a mentally bankrupt person. After all, I do remember what Gandhi ji said 'First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win'. So I can understand this. Our right-wing friends first tried to ignore secularism, then they derided it, and now in India we are in the transition from the second to the third stage. Soon secularism will indeed win, and that will spell the dooms for both the Hindutva messengers and the pseudo seculars like Congress and their folk. 1) It's ironic that when the Congress does something it is construed as an act of appeasement, but when the BJP does the same it is not so. When the BJP raised haj subsidies nobody raised an eyebrow, but the RSS calls it Muslim appeasement when the Congress does the same. When the BJP gives funds to madrassas for modernization, it's not Muslim appeasement. But when the Congress does so, it's Muslim vote bank appeasement. Just like whoever is associated with the BJP is communal. The BJP only doesn't have the licence to decide what is Muslim appeasement and what is not. Similarly, the Congress alone doesn't have the right to decide who is secular and who is not. 2) You state that the soldiers stand on the border to protect me. Fine. If they don't stand there, I will die. Right. Of course I can be killed even with their standing there, by some Islamic/Hindu/Christian/other fanatic. But my death or not, the idea I am putting across is right. And if that is the case, one should not worry. It's not people who are important, it's ideas which are important. I don't support Gandhi, I like his ideas and support those. So, for you, you may be happy that the seculars die directly or indirectly at the hands of the army, but for us, it's spreading of the ideas which is more important. So if you wish to see my death, I only hope that the sooner it is fulfilled, the better. But I wish that more and more people understand the depths to which our politics has sunk, and the importance of values enshrined in our Constitution, not Hindutva or minority appeasement. By the way all terrorists are not Muslims. There is the LTTE, there were organizations in Northern Ireland (Christian ones) which were declared terrorist, there are organizations in the North-East which are having many Christians (branded as terrorist ones), and then we have the Naxalites who are unfortunately also branded as terrorists (and they are Indians). 3) Terrorism can have different definitions according to different people. For you, it may be just Islamic terrorism. For Taha jee, probably even lightning was a cause of terrorism. For me, terrorism simply means a recurring phenomenon to ensure terror among human beings. For example, if there is one loot in an area, then it will generate terror, but once the culprits are caught, that reason for terror goes away. But when, there is a spate of loot incidents in an area and say the police are able to do nothing about it (or the number is too huge for the police to manage), then that too is terrorism because it creates terror in the minds of the people. Therefore, there are different kinds of terrorism, and therefore each has to be dealt in a different manner. Fanaticism in the name of religion has to be handled differently from the terror created due to illegal arms selling. Both may be related, but then we have to form different strategies to counter them. The same can't work for both. Now coming to your question, how to solve (your kind of) terrorism? If I had known the solution, I would have already sent it to the Indian govt. and got it implemented, so that we would not have had any terror attack by now. I don't say I know the solution. Nor can I say I understand the complexities of the kind of terrorism you are talking about. Therefore, I certainly don't have solutions to it. But that does not mean I accept any useless or utopian idea as a solution, which is only going to perpetrate further mindless violence in the name of religion/statism/something else. And your ideas of nationalism stopping terrorism are not going to work at all. Israel is already suffering. What do you want, to spend 50% of India's budget on defense or what? And let the citizens live in hell. As for the reasons, I believe Ayodhya and Gujarat are additions to a sense of injustice among some of the Muslims who may have indulged in such acts. The basic problem is lack of development and the need to be rooted in one's own culture, which has also contributed to such problems. And it's not only among Muslims, it's there among a section of Hindus (Nandy rightly has stated time and again that Hindus, in order to be rooted to their culture and traditions, think Hindutva is the right way. Probably that's why he feels culture is an important link for terrorism.) 4) As for the armed forces, go to Kashmir and Jammu, you would very well find prostitution thanks to our armed forces. Go to the North-East to find out 'hamari army kya gul khila rahi hai'. And forget all that, I can myself relate two incidents which tell me the Indian Army has no respect even for elder women (in one case there were two who were ill and going to city for better treatment) to give them their own reserved seats. What impression should I have of them, tell me? Of course, it's another issue we don't get to know about it, or by know, the image of Indian Army would have been in shreds altogether. As for your nationalism. Mere liye nationalism se bada dharm hai insaaniyat. Mera hindu dharm (faith) bhi yehi kehta hai ki insaan mein vishwaas karna chahiye. Aur har insaan sudhar sakta hai, chahe woh kitna bhi bura kyun na ho. Haan mai kehta hoon garv se ki mai Hindu hoon. Because it was Mahatma Gandhi, a great saint in my religion who stated that tolerance is the way ahead for our nation and our world to prosper. Because he reminded all of us of the paths which Hindu faith has stood out for (not organized Hindu religion), truth and non violence. Because it's Hindu faith which reminds me that for the action of a few (be it Muslims/ Christians/ Hindus/ others), I shouldn't punish an entire community or hold them responsible. Because my faith makes me realize that we are so diverse in our customs and traditions and we can learn from each other not only in these (to further enrich our own knowledge), but also from that knowledge to lead better lives. Because my faith asks me to trust other people (I had forgotten this many times in my life, some friends and others reminded me, and my faith in them, which again somewhere came from Hinduism). Because my faith believes even evil people can transform themselves into good natured. And not because of the BJP and their temple movement. Garv se kehta hoon mai Hindu hoon. Aur dhikhaar hai un par mujhe jo ayodhya mein masjid todne gaye. Dhikkar hai un par jo godhra ka badla musalamanon ka khoon kar aur unki auraton ke saath galat kar le rahe the. Aise log deshbhakt to door ki baat hai, achche hindu kabhi nahi ho sakte. Aur aise logon se is desh ka kabhi bhala nahi hoga. Bacha nationalism. Uski ijaazat mera faith nahi deta. So I am sorry, I can't be a nationalist. And finally a point for you Vedavati jee. You should be happy that the secularists are so faithful in their secular vision of the world, that they never threw a stone at you (unlike the ridicule and derision they get from you and your folk, be it here in Sarai or elsewhere). Because we take good things from wherever we get, not bad things like Hindutva and minority appeasement. Regards Rakesh From shuddha at sarai.net Wed May 13 15:51:21 2009 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 15:51:21 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] APJ letter In-Reply-To: <006001c9d398$81b82af0$0201a8c0@limo> References: <000801c9d2f3$6ff1c010$0201a8c0@limo> <006001c9d398$81b82af0$0201a8c0@limo> Message-ID: <6F60BAC3-E5C6-4413-9CBA-A1B772568C70@sarai.net> Dear All, I find the discussion on what the ex-president and weapons designer APJ Abdul Kalam said quite interesting. One of the things being remarked upon is his impression that the Indian media highlights negativity, as opposed, say to the media in Israel, which is always committed to a positive potrayal of what goes on in Israel. I do not know from where the ex-president got this impression, or whether it is part of the current fascination with all things Israeli amongst apologists of a strong state, because, from my cursory familiarity with the Israeli press and media, segments of it are as robustly critical of life in Israel, as anywhere else. So, sorry to disappoint those on this list (and APJ Kalam) who think that the media in Israel is a flat, uniform delivery mechanism for 'good news' arrived at by consensus. As an example, let me share below a text 'Hear the Other Side' by the Israeli journalist Avirama Golan from the mainstream Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz (this is from the English online edition) that I found particularly striking during the attacks on Gaza earlier this year. ------------------------------- Hear the other side By Avirama Golan Tags: gaza, Israel news, Hamas http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1057370.html There's no doubt that the terrible tragedy of Dr. Ezzeldeen Abu al- Aish, who told Israeli television viewers in fluent Hebrew that he lost three daughters and a niece to an Israeli tank shell during the fighting in Gaza, has managed to finally penetrate the layer of cast lead that has sealed the ears of the Israeli public since the Gaza operation began. He made the killing suddenly appear tangible, close, shocking and threatening. It's Abu al-Aish's bad luck that he's "one of us" no less than "one of them." He's an educated and successful physician who was offered a job at a Canadian hospital after he worked and conducted research at Israel's Soroka and Sheba medical centers. Moreover, and perhaps more importantly, he speaks Hebrew and is proficient in the codes that govern Israeli thinking and behavior. At a press conference in which he pleaded for an end to the Gaza war - and to war in general - he unconsciously appealed to the agitated mix of familial dedication and longing for a peaceful life, the enlightened Western format that constitutes the Israeli self-image. Woe to Abu al-Aish; his efforts have come to nothing. While many television viewers who had previously followed only what had been presented to them as glorious military achievements shed a tear for his loss, a woman called Levana Stern - who was apparently granted blanket permission to speak abusively because of her status as mother of three soldiers - disrupted the press conference by shouting at the top of her voice: "I feel your pain, I'm totally with you, but who knows what was going on in your house!" Advertisement People standing next to her, who were emboldened by her outburst, protested the audacity of the hospital where he spoke to the press for giving a platform to a Palestinian while Israeli soldiers were fighting in Gaza. One woman even passionately called him a "piece of trash." In despair, Abu al-Aish muttered, "They don't want to hear the other side." So much ink has been spilled on academic research about the voice of the other in post-colonial society, and so many conferences and articles have determined that Israeli society has long ago passed the melting-pot stage and is now a multicultural society that makes space for the voice of the other. Now Abu al-Aish has inadvertently revealed how false that is. The residents of Gaza don't exist at all in the Israeli consciousness, failing even to merit the status of "other." But because the Gaza doctor works in Israel and has many Israeli acquaintances, he was given a chance that thousands of others have not had: the chance to speak on prime time (though only after the blood of his daughters Bisan, Mayer and Aya was spilled in his home). Abu Al-Aish is not alone. Over the past years, Sderot residents have repeatedly been accused of failing to act responsibly when they stay there with their young children ("Why don't they evacuate them?" people ask). Even many reporters share the unfounded sentiment that everyone who could have left Sderot did so long ago, and only the unfortunates who have nowhere to go are still there. True, residents of the periphery are not a hated "other" like the Palestinians, but they too are faceless and voiceless. Now the residents of Sderot have become the beloved children for whose sake the war was waged, but they will pay dearly for that. Some opponents of the war see them as extreme right-wingers whose complaints are exaggerated, saying that no Israeli child was killed by a rocket during the war, while thousands were killed in Gaza. And some of the war's supporters refuse to understand that the ongoing suffering of Negev residents has made them angry, frustrated and full of hate - but that the historic friendly ties they used to have with Gazans and the mutual desire for normalization are just as authentic. Those supporters also have contempt for the demand of thousands of residents of the south, led by the "A Different Voice" group from Sderot, who urged the government to do all it can to reach an agreement rather than go to war. The warped logic that prevails on the left as well as the right means that whoever has not fled from Gaza to Canada is an impoverished laggard at best, and a Hamas supporter at worst, and whoever has not moved from Sderot to Tel Aviv's Rothschild Boulevard is an uneducated and irresponsible Likud voter who brought this bad situation upon himself. This is how the so-called "others" are used to defining the Israeli consensus - an opaque and hate-filled consensus that denies the complex reality in favor of intensifying frightened entrenchment. Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From c.anupam at gmail.com Wed May 13 16:12:31 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 16:12:31 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] APJ letter In-Reply-To: <6F60BAC3-E5C6-4413-9CBA-A1B772568C70@sarai.net> References: <000801c9d2f3$6ff1c010$0201a8c0@limo> <006001c9d398$81b82af0$0201a8c0@limo> <6F60BAC3-E5C6-4413-9CBA-A1B772568C70@sarai.net> Message-ID: <341380d00905130342w287eb066t20c552fd154c3efe@mail.gmail.com> Here's a clear example of a Hindutva sponsored understanding of our armed forces: http://hindutva.org/nepal.html On 5/13/09, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > Dear All, > > I find the discussion on what the ex-president and weapons designer > APJ Abdul Kalam said quite interesting. One of the things being > remarked upon is his impression that the Indian media highlights > negativity, as opposed, say to the media in Israel, which is always > committed to a positive potrayal of what goes on in Israel. > > I do not know from where the ex-president got this impression, or > whether it is part of the current fascination with all things Israeli > amongst apologists of a strong state, because, from my cursory > familiarity with the Israeli press and media, segments of it are as > robustly critical of life in Israel, as anywhere else. So, sorry to > disappoint those on this list (and APJ Kalam) who think that the > media in Israel is a flat, uniform delivery mechanism for 'good news' > arrived at by consensus. > > As an example, let me share below a text 'Hear the Other Side' by the > Israeli journalist Avirama Golan from the mainstream Israeli > newspaper Ha'aretz (this is from the English online edition) that I > found particularly striking during the attacks on Gaza earlier this > year. > > ------------------------------- > Hear the other side > By Avirama Golan > Tags: gaza, Israel news, Hamas > http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1057370.html > > There's no doubt that the terrible tragedy of Dr. Ezzeldeen Abu al- > Aish, who told Israeli television viewers in fluent Hebrew that he > lost three daughters and a niece to an Israeli tank shell during the > fighting in Gaza, has managed to finally penetrate the layer of cast > lead that has sealed the ears of the Israeli public since the Gaza > operation began. He made the killing suddenly appear tangible, close, > shocking and threatening. > > It's Abu al-Aish's bad luck that he's "one of us" no less than "one > of them." He's an educated and successful physician who was offered a > job at a Canadian hospital after he worked and conducted research at > Israel's Soroka and Sheba medical centers. Moreover, and perhaps more > importantly, he speaks Hebrew and is proficient in the codes that > govern Israeli thinking and behavior. At a press conference in which > he pleaded for an end to the Gaza war - and to war in general - he > unconsciously appealed to the agitated mix of familial dedication and > longing for a peaceful life, the enlightened Western format that > constitutes the Israeli self-image. > > Woe to Abu al-Aish; his efforts have come to nothing. While many > television viewers who had previously followed only what had been > presented to them as glorious military achievements shed a tear for > his loss, a woman called Levana Stern - who was apparently granted > blanket permission to speak abusively because of her status as mother > of three soldiers - disrupted the press conference by shouting at the > top of her voice: "I feel your pain, I'm totally with you, but who > knows what was going on in your house!" > Advertisement > People standing next to her, who were emboldened by her outburst, > protested the audacity of the hospital where he spoke to the press > for giving a platform to a Palestinian while Israeli soldiers were > fighting in Gaza. One woman even passionately called him a "piece of > trash." In despair, Abu al-Aish muttered, "They don't want to hear > the other side." > > So much ink has been spilled on academic research about the voice of > the other in post-colonial society, and so many conferences and > articles have determined that Israeli society has long ago passed the > melting-pot stage and is now a multicultural society that makes space > for the voice of the other. Now Abu al-Aish has inadvertently > revealed how false that is. The residents of Gaza don't exist at all > in the Israeli consciousness, failing even to merit the status of > "other." But because the Gaza doctor works in Israel and has many > Israeli acquaintances, he was given a chance that thousands of others > have not had: the chance to speak on prime time (though only after > the blood of his daughters Bisan, Mayer and Aya was spilled in his > home). > > Abu Al-Aish is not alone. Over the past years, Sderot residents have > repeatedly been accused of failing to act responsibly when they stay > there with their young children ("Why don't they evacuate them?" > people ask). Even many reporters share the unfounded sentiment that > everyone who could have left Sderot did so long ago, and only the > unfortunates who have nowhere to go are still there. > > True, residents of the periphery are not a hated "other" like the > Palestinians, but they too are faceless and voiceless. Now the > residents of Sderot have become the beloved children for whose sake > the war was waged, but they will pay dearly for that. Some opponents > of the war see them as extreme right-wingers whose complaints are > exaggerated, saying that no Israeli child was killed by a rocket > during the war, while thousands were killed in Gaza. And some of the > war's supporters refuse to understand that the ongoing suffering of > Negev residents has made them angry, frustrated and full of hate - > but that the historic friendly ties they used to have with Gazans and > the mutual desire for normalization are just as authentic. Those > supporters also have contempt for the demand of thousands of > residents of the south, led by the "A Different Voice" group from > Sderot, who urged the government to do all it can to reach an > agreement rather than go to war. > > The warped logic that prevails on the left as well as the right means > that whoever has not fled from Gaza to Canada is an impoverished > laggard at best, and a Hamas supporter at worst, and whoever has not > moved from Sderot to Tel Aviv's Rothschild Boulevard is an uneducated > and irresponsible Likud voter who brought this bad situation upon > himself. This is how the so-called "others" are used to defining the > Israeli consensus - an opaque and hate-filled consensus that denies > the complex reality in favor of intensifying frightened entrenchment. > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Wed May 13 16:21:38 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 16:21:38 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] APJ letter In-Reply-To: <894551.6662.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <894551.6662.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Kshamendra jee (and all) Interesting mail, and here go my views on it. 1) None of my ideas are original. They are there for people to read elsewhere. If I get evidences and understanding that they will benefit the people of the world, then I believe I should support it, and so should others. The first time I read that India is a state-nation, was an essay by Linz, Stefanz and Yadav (I hopefully say that the names are right). The idea is that India is a country where there are too many nations (nation means a land entity having a common culture, language or religion). So all these nations are together kept by a statist arrangement which is headed at Delhi and having many organs which penetrate into our very own lives. Hence, they argue that India is a state-nation, which I accept. I have no problems with you saying it is a country only. 2) I don't attack nation states simply because it's of no use. These are all utopian ideas which are never going to succeed. We ultimately have to deal with a world which has nation states (and some state-nations like India, Belgium and Spain). Hence, I think that we should concentrate on ideas to improve the state apparatus internally to ensure it's not as suppressing as it can be at its worst (like under Indira Gandhi during the Emergency). 3) People should not look at issues from a nationalist perspective basically. I think this is a huge problem, even in the place from where I write this mail (Chennai), where there are politicians stating that we should create a Tamil Eelam in Sri Lanka, thereby propagating Tamil nationalism. There are two reasons I believe we shouldn't be nationalists. i) The first problem is that nationalism means India first, its people later. But India is simply a land mass which can be described in maps, nothing more without its people. And what use is a land mass without any people? Nothing. So the slogan should be, people first. After all, only when the people are first, can India be first. Look at our development schemes. We ask for displacement of people, and we ask the people not to even demand compensation in the name of nationalism, as Nehru did in the case of Hirakud dam. Even now those displaced by that dam have not been rehabilitated. Similarly, in the name of this nationalism, we have allowed an Armed Forces Special Powers Act (AFSPA), using which our armed forces have conducted human right violations of the most worst kind in our border and other sensitive regions. And we are asked not to abrogate this act in the name of nationalism. Why so? Gandhi, if alive today, would have organized a non-cooperation movement against the Indian State for this. Ironically, there may be many nationalists who feel today that India is a soft state. They would also feel that the NDA govt. was wrong to release three terrorists in Kandahar. But I support that, because I feel that at that moment, the larger objective should have been to free the passengers of the IC-814 aircraft (which had been hijacked), and get them safely and securely to India. Therefore, even if the Congress goes on an all-out attack on that count against the BJP, I would support the BJP's move. Because we should be humans first, nationalists later (that is if we are a nationalist, I am not). ii) The second reason is that nationalism makes me feel some land is mine, when I am not related at all to its culture, religion or language. And this for some -ism which is related to nation! Strange! When I don't know a thing at all about say Maharashtra or infact our North-East, why should I feel that it is Indian, or that land rightfully belongs to the Indian state? I don't have any connection to Marathi culture, language or religious traditions (nor of the North-East). Then why should I consider that land to be mine? 4) Also, I am asked to be an Indian first, and a Hindu/Muslim/Tamil/Marathi/Bengali/Christian/Pathani/someone else later. Why? I know what it is to be a Hindu or a Muslim (at least the religious places and the books I am supposed to read). I equally know what it is to be a Tamil or a Bengali (the language that is). I know what it is to live in Madhya Pradesh (I am familiar in Hindi and have eaten that food since childhood and can live in that). But what I don't know is what is Indian? Even Vedavati jee would not know what is Indian. And I am asked to be an Indian first! Great! Can please the Indian state define what is Indian at least? 5) We can understand problems even if we are not nationalists. I can understand the pain of being displaced both for a dam oustee and a Kashmiri pandit, and I am not a nationalist. I can understand that nuclear weapons will bring huge destruction onto the Indian subcontinent, and yet again I am no nationalist. I can understand that we should follow laws or the areas where I live and go will turn into a chaos, and yet I ain't no nationalist. Then what should we be? Humanists and patriotic. Love your land if you feel you are connected to it through traditions and culture. Unnikrishnan's death was useful if he was patriotic and felt connected to the land through culture, through his traditions and customs, and gave up life to protect that land which he loved for this very reason. (Or he realized that the vision of the terrorists would only lead to doom and destruction) If he died for nationalist cause (which is to love land just because it is said by someone that this is ours, without any personal reason behind it), then his death, and so also that of others was a waste for useless ideologies. 6) The diversity of India is not related to nationalism. One can understand that even if one is a foreigner (and that includes Sonia Gandhi). What one needs is an open mind to understand it, not the narrow minds of our brothers and sisters supporting Hindutva (who have moral policing and Muslim bashing as their major goals). May be I have not answered all your points, but you may understand now why I don't want to be a nationalist. Better to be a Rani Lakshmi bai who fought the British for securing the land to which she was connected, rather than be a nationalist. Regards Rakesh From vedavati_jogi at yahoo.com Wed May 13 16:40:55 2009 From: vedavati_jogi at yahoo.com (Vedavati Jogi) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 16:40:55 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] APJ letter Message-ID: <212270.69106.qm@web94707.mail.in2.yahoo.com> dear rakesh,   when bjp sanctions money for 'modernization' of madarassa it shows that they are not looking upon muslims as vote banks. more than anything else muslims in india need that. secondly i agree all terrorists are not Muslims but at present india is facing problems because of muslim terrorists only. hence i would like to talk about them only. because i am a narrow minded nationalist.   thirdly, if 'self protection' is the act of fanaticism then i must say all hindus need to be fanatics otherwise they will meet the same fate of 1947 refugees or kashmiri pandits. i am sorry to say so but secular  ideas spread by you people (and which find their origin in gandhian philosophy) are extremely dangerous for hindus..   indian army is working in absolutely adverse condition - they have to constantly face humiliation at the hands og humanrights activists  and on top of that if they have to feed 'biryani' to terrorists who have occupied charare sharif then in enraged state of mind few cases of 'bad behaviour' mentioned by you may be possible. because army men are also human beings. ofcourse these cases have to be dealt with iron hands. but at the same time i am sure many stories must have  been blown out of proportion.     last but not least being a true and gandhian hindu  'agar shatru ka dil bhi aap pyar se jeetana chahate hai' then why don't you go to swat valley and try to win the  hearts of talibanis?   vedavati --- On Wed, 13/5/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: From: Rakesh Iyer Subject: Re: [Reader-list] APJ letter To: "Vedavati Jogi" Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Date: Wednesday, 13 May, 2009, 6:16 PM Dear Vedavati Thank you very much for your epithets terming me a mentally bankrupt person. After all, I do remember what Gandhi ji said 'First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win'. So I can understand this. Our right-wing friends first tried to ignore secularism, then they derided it, and now in India we are in the transition from the second to the third stage. Soon secularism will indeed win, and that will spell the dooms for both the Hindutva messengers and the pseudo seculars like Congress and their folk. 1) It's ironic that when the Congress does something it is construed as an act of appeasement, but when the BJP does the same it is not so. When the BJP raised haj subsidies nobody raised an eyebrow, but the RSS calls it Muslim appeasement when the Congress does the same. When the BJP gives funds to madrassas for modernization, it's not Muslim appeasement. But when the Congress does so, it's Muslim vote bank appeasement. Just like whoever is associated with the BJP is communal. The BJP only doesn't have the licence to decide what is Muslim appeasement and what is not. Similarly, the Congress alone doesn't have the right to decide who is secular and who is not. 2) You state that the soldiers stand on the border to protect me. Fine. If they don't stand there, I will die. Right. Of course I can be killed even with their standing there, by some Islamic/Hindu/Christian/other fanatic. But my death or not, the idea I am putting across is right. And if that is the case, one should not worry. It's not people who are important, it's ideas which are important. I don't support Gandhi, I like his ideas and support those. So, for you, you may be happy that the seculars die directly or indirectly at the hands of the army, but for us, it's spreading of the ideas which is more important. So if you wish to see my death, I only hope that the sooner it is fulfilled, the better. But I wish that more and more people understand the depths to which our politics has sunk, and the importance of values enshrined in our Constitution, not Hindutva or minority appeasement. By the way all terrorists are not Muslims. There is the LTTE, there were organizations in Northern Ireland (Christian ones) which were declared terrorist, there are organizations in the North-East which are having many Christians (branded as terrorist ones), and then we have the Naxalites who are unfortunately also branded as terrorists (and they are Indians). 3) Terrorism can have different definitions according to different people. For you, it may be just Islamic terrorism. For Taha jee, probably even lightning was a cause of terrorism. For me, terrorism simply means a recurring phenomenon to ensure terror among human beings. For example, if there is one loot in an area, then it will generate terror, but once the culprits are caught, that reason for terror goes away. But when, there is a spate of loot incidents in an area and say the police are able to do nothing about it (or the number is too huge for the police to manage), then that too is terrorism because it creates terror in the minds of the people. Therefore, there are different kinds of terrorism, and therefore each has to be dealt in a different manner. Fanaticism in the name of religion has to be handled differently from the terror created due to illegal arms selling. Both may be related, but then we have to form different strategies to counter them. The same can't work for both. Now coming to your question, how to solve (your kind of) terrorism? If I had known the solution, I would have already sent it to the Indian govt. and got it implemented, so that we would not have had any terror attack by now. I don't say I know the solution. Nor can I say I understand the complexities of the kind of terrorism you are talking about. Therefore, I certainly don't have solutions to it. But that does not mean I accept any useless or utopian idea as a solution, which is only going to perpetrate further mindless violence in the name of religion/statism/something else. And your ideas of nationalism stopping terrorism are not going to work at all. Israel is already suffering. What do you want, to spend 50% of India's budget on defense or what? And let the citizens live in hell. As for the reasons, I believe Ayodhya and Gujarat are additions to a sense of injustice among some of the Muslims who may have indulged in such acts. The basic problem is lack of development and the need to be rooted in one's own culture, which has also contributed to such problems. And it's not only among Muslims, it's there among a section of Hindus (Nandy rightly has stated time and again that Hindus, in order to be rooted to their culture and traditions, think Hindutva is the right way. Probably that's why he feels culture is an important link for terrorism.) 4) As for the armed forces, go to Kashmir and Jammu, you would very well find prostitution thanks to our armed forces. Go to the North-East to find out 'hamari army kya gul khila rahi hai'.  And forget all that, I can myself relate two incidents which tell me the Indian Army has no respect even for elder women (in one case there were two who were ill and going to city for better treatment) to give them their own reserved seats. What impression should I have of them, tell me? Of course, it's another issue we don't get to know about it, or by know, the image of Indian Army would have been in shreds altogether. As for your nationalism. Mere liye nationalism se bada dharm hai insaaniyat. Mera hindu dharm (faith) bhi yehi kehta hai ki insaan mein vishwaas karna chahiye. Aur har insaan sudhar sakta hai, chahe woh kitna bhi bura kyun na ho. Haan mai kehta hoon garv se ki mai Hindu hoon. Because it was Mahatma Gandhi, a great saint in my religion who stated that tolerance is the way ahead for our nation and our world to prosper. Because he reminded all of us of the paths which Hindu faith has stood out for (not organized Hindu religion), truth and non violence. Because it's Hindu faith which reminds me that for the action of a few (be it Muslims/ Christians/ Hindus/ others), I shouldn't punish an entire community or hold them responsible. Because my faith makes me realize that we are so diverse in our customs and traditions and we can learn from each other not only in these (to further enrich our own knowledge), but also from that knowledge to lead better lives. Because my faith asks me to trust other people (I had forgotten this many times in my life, some friends and others reminded me, and my faith in them, which again somewhere came from Hinduism). Because my faith believes even evil people can transform themselves into good natured. And not because of the BJP and their temple movement. Garv se kehta hoon mai Hindu hoon. Aur dhikhaar hai un par mujhe jo ayodhya mein masjid todne gaye. Dhikkar hai un par jo godhra ka badla musalamanon ka khoon kar aur unki auraton ke saath galat kar le rahe the. Aise log deshbhakt to door ki baat hai, achche hindu kabhi nahi ho sakte. Aur aise logon se is desh ka kabhi bhala nahi hoga. Bacha nationalism. Uski ijaazat mera faith nahi deta. So I am sorry, I can't be a nationalist. And finally a point for you Vedavati jee. You should be happy that the secularists are so faithful in their secular vision of the world, that they never threw a stone at you (unlike the ridicule and derision they get from you and your folk, be it here in Sarai or elsewhere). Because we take good things from wherever we get, not bad things like Hindutva and minority appeasement. Regards Rakesh Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter http://beta.cricket.yahoo.com From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Wed May 13 16:55:57 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 16:55:57 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] APJ letter In-Reply-To: <212270.69106.qm@web94707.mail.in2.yahoo.com> References: <212270.69106.qm@web94707.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Vedavati jee Some views again. 1) Well, the BJP portrays Congress scheme on same modernization of madrassas as minority appeasement. Why? 2) Please don't try to do another Modi-kind of actions (taking an ultra-defensive action that is) by portraying yourself as a narrow-minded nationalist. You can explain why are you so. 3) What kind of self-protection involves stripping women naked and then mass raping them? (This happened post-Godhra). And then of course, women were cut to pieces, sometimes with their foetuses, and burnt as well. If this protects Hindus, I hope all Hindus are killed so that no more such protection is required (including myself). As I see it, you and your folk are a greater threat to both humanity (and of course India itself) and Hindu faith than i see it. (I say Hindu faith, not Hindu religion) 4) The Indian Army is not something forced upon you. You take it up as a profession because you wish to. Therefore, any bad behavior just because the conditions you work in are harsh, can't still be tolerated. Probably the BJP had also gone feeding biryanis and cash to Kandahar when Jaswant Singh escorted the three terrorists personally in a helicopter (the only part of this hijack which I never supported, a foreign minister escorting three terrorists to their destiny). Or may be they also sent biryanis in packed way to Maulana Masood Azhar for the Parliament attack by picking up Afzal Guru and ending the case with him (rather than actually conducting a proper investingation into the case). 5) Gandhian nahi kehta khud ko. Woh bahut badi upaadhi ho gayee. Gandhian kabhi nahi ban paoonga. Par haan, insaan to ban hi sakta hoon. Gandhi ji se kuch kuch baatein seekh sakta hoon. Aur pehle aap ka dil jeetna chahoonga. kyunki jab aap ka dil na jeet saka, to talibanis ka dil kya jeet loonga? Aap ko congress par trust nahi, secularists par trust nahi yeh galat hai. kam se kam insaan hone ke naate trust karna seekhein. mai yehi nahi samajh paa raha aap personal life mein kis par trust karte honge? Regards Rakesh From rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com Wed May 13 18:58:09 2009 From: rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com (Rajen Uppinangadi) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 18:58:09 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] In sheer bad taste.? Message-ID: <61164a90905130628r55144f1ar2c12eca87f026630@mail.gmail.com> Dear Shuddha, when some one joins army and defence forces he knows that his training will be his only saviour, and they are ready to fie for the cause of the nation, so to ridicule the "infiltration" in army by supposed to be hindu youth is attributed to RSS men is really a pervert mind at its best, would you say the bengalis have infiltrated in to army or other states like Karnataka for the same effect.?Come on, this is not the way for intellect to use the partisan ends for the sake of hatred.! As to incidents at Malegaon and subsequent arrests of the army men both retired and serving, according to informed sources, Mr. Hemanth karkare was used by the vily politician Sharad Pawar to score the divisive politics and divide the votes OF shivsena and mns, tempting Mr. Karkare who was in Delhi all his career, to head SIT and play like his tool, Inspite of 5 brain mapping tests and narco tests, no evidence could be gathered except the sold bike tells something else more sinister, to paint the picture of "hindu" terror.?That a senior police official could fall prey to offer of promotion of being IG is nothing new as the promotion of Ray was already stuck down by court. That no substantual evidence has been digged out till date is a surprise for "efficient" Mumbai police wnen they are compared to scotland yard. Regards, Rajen. From c.anupam at gmail.com Wed May 13 19:08:04 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 19:08:04 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] In sheer bad taste.? In-Reply-To: <61164a90905130628r55144f1ar2c12eca87f026630@mail.gmail.com> References: <61164a90905130628r55144f1ar2c12eca87f026630@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00905130638n45bf6efdpbf8e2f1b4f2cc881@mail.gmail.com> Dear Rajen, well you forgot to mention Narendra Modi being refused by Karkare's wife when he annoounced 1 crore for his family. -anupam On 5/13/09, Rajen Uppinangadi wrote: > > Dear Shuddha, > when some one joins army and defence forces he knows that his training > will be his only saviour, and they are ready to fie for the cause of the > nation, so to ridicule the "infiltration" in army by supposed to be hindu > youth is attributed to RSS men is really a pervert mind at its best, would > you say the bengalis have infiltrated in to army or other states like > Karnataka for the same effect.?Come on, this is not the way for intellect > to > use the partisan ends for the sake of hatred.! > > As to incidents at Malegaon and subsequent arrests of the army men both > retired and serving, according to informed sources, Mr. Hemanth karkare was > used by the vily politician Sharad Pawar to score the divisive politics and > divide the votes OF shivsena and mns, tempting Mr. Karkare who was in Delhi > all his career, to head SIT and play like his tool, Inspite of 5 brain > mapping tests and narco tests, no evidence could be gathered except the > sold > bike tells something else more sinister, to paint the picture of "hindu" > terror.?That a senior police official could fall prey to offer of promotion > of being IG is nothing new as the promotion of Ray was already stuck down > by > court. That no substantual evidence has been digged out till date is a > surprise for "efficient" Mumbai police wnen they are compared to scotland > yard. > > Regards, > > Rajen. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed May 13 19:23:25 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 06:53:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] The NGO-Industrial Complex (Another non-Communist manifesto?) Message-ID: <646102.18713.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> "The NGO-Industrial Complex (Another non-Communist manifesto?)" by RA   A new spectre is haunting the world.  Picking up where the colonial projects left off, it aims to complete their transnational projects and crystallise the dominant world order once and for all. It can be seen as the newest stage and mutation of both capitalism and colonialism, with aid workers as the new missionaries.  Yet this avatar breaks with previous projects in that it commodifies not just goods or people, but emotion itself. It equally seeks to neuter dissent and reproduce itself not through the politicised discrimination and particularization of colonialism, but instead, through a generalized depoliticisation.  And although it may operate with a similarly well intentioned ‘help us help them’ ethos, its realized effects are slightly less admirable.  This is the Non Governmental Organisation Industrial complex.   Yet what does it mean to liken NGOs – generally viewed as altruistic non-profit vehicles for social change – to the prison and military industrial complexes? To begin with, the label ‘industrial complex’ can be defined as a system of relations between the State and certain institutions and organizations in a particular industry - in this case foundations, intergovernmentals and nonprofits - often with an associated ulterior agenda or motive.  It may be noted that NGOs differ from the military and prison industries in that they are external to, and thus ostensibly independent from the state.  It can however be argued that the tax-exempt status which these philanthropic and charitable organizations enjoy vastly changes their relationship with the State.  This is to say, that while taxes may pit corporations in opposition to the State, the NGOs’ exemption results in them functioning as a part, and the international arm of said State.   And indeed, globalizing forces have today redrawn us into a world that is increasingly interdependent and borderless, at least on paper. It is in this international aspect where Rostow’s Five Stages of Growth theory, which takes the nation state as the basic unit of economic analysis, falls short.  Past his fifth stage of mass consumption, he poses the question of where a nation, having attained technological maturity and having “at its command a modernized and differentiated industrial machine”.  Options range from the expansion of the welfare state to the increasing of “the nation’s stature and power on the world scene” to “the creation of new inner, human frontiers in substitution for the imperatives of scarcity” (1971:16).   It may then be possible to posit a sixth stage of growth to add on to Rostow’s original five: that of globalisation and transnationalism.  This stage too possesses an “inner logic and continuity … (and) and analytic bone structure, rooted in a dynamic theory of production” (1971:13-14). It is well characterized by the body of philanthropic NGO organizations, which achieve a tripartite synthesis of Rostow’s posited options above.  Structured not by an individual state, but instead the world government, it can be viewed as an expansion of the welfare state on a global scale. The body’s collective aim is thus stated as the alleviation of poverty and human suffering through government initiatives that transcend national borders.  It can however be argued that this philanthropic mission belies an underlying, perhaps more insidious aim: the global promotion of the nation with regards to both stature and power.    The pattern of Buddenbrooks dynamics that Rostow cites (1971:11) is also relevant in considering the creation of the aforementioned ‘creation of new inner, human frontiers in substitution for the imperatives of scarcity’.  Denizens of a society in this proposed sixth stage are characterized by their relatively higher levels of economic comfort and standard of living, replete with all the accoutrements of hypercapitalism.   This affluence leads them to behave “as if, having been born into a system that provided economic security and high mass-consumption, they placed a lower valuation on acquiring increments of real income in the conventional form”.  Included among these ‘new’ aspirations is the drive for charity and philanthropic social change, as facilitated and enabled through the collective body of NGOs. In previous stages of economic growth, this commitment to philanthropy has tended to be the province of only the rich elite in any given society.  This division does not change in this sixth stage, except to be mapped onto the global scale of the ‘world society’.  So it is that the ‘richer’ countries do the developing, while those seen as being less economically advantaged in the hegemonic globalisation paradigm are the countries that are being ‘developed’.    At this conjecture it is important to quickly emphasise that there should be no inevitability or universality ascribed to these stages.  Rather, a conscious effort at delinking and self-extricating from this process may prove far more effective for those countries targeted through this NGO-industrial complex.  Even in the countries that are doing the ‘developing’, it is worth noting how this complex reproduces itself in its ‘home’ societies.  This is an age where corporations too function as consumers, and are often subject to the same mores as their human counterparts.  It thus becomes no longer adequate for these firms to simply function by the ‘imperatives of scarcity’ or the turning of profits.  Rather, these entities are almost expected to display a conscience, with a ‘green’ environmentally commitment, and careful investments.  The twin pillars of ‘Corporate Social Responsibility’ and ‘Socially Responsible Investing’, along with the phenomenon of ethical consumerism, thus force corporations to accumulate an entirely new kind of brand-related capital.  This new maxim answers not directly to profit, but instead to the maximization of PR.   While CSR and SRI do certainly have a plethora of positive effects, they do serve to both fuel and reinforce the NGO-industrial complex.  Perhaps not unlike the electoral political system, it self-sustains by presenting itself as the only viable and effective avenue for a certain kind of social change.  Individuals are equally affected by this construction, which can be said to appropriate, commodify and redistribute these philanthropic aspirations.  This can equally be said to result in a simultaneous statizing and depoliticizing of local social justice movements, where activist energies are redirected into NGO careerism, and certain institutionalized modes of organizing which have very different outcomes to those approached with a mass community-rooted ideology.  Especially fascinating is its appropriation not only of emotion, but also of grassroots-based strategies and aesthetics.  This is not limited to just the NGO complex, but goes on to be picked up and institutionalized by other State institutions, as clearly evidenced by the Obama Campaign’s recent fundraising and mobilizing tactics.    So it is that even emotion – in the form of liberal guilt – gets modulated and monitored, almost replete with a barcode and price tag attached.  If, following Bataille (1949), a society can be characterized not by what it produces so much as by that which it wastes, then this commodification of emotion must surely represent the most efficient form of capitalism yet.  Like the development project , it is “efficient in its inefficiency” (Ferguson 1994:268), managing to in a way commodify the uncommodifiable, and integrate into discourse that which previously resisted definitions.  Thinking of the commodification of emotion in terms of excess is especially interesting in that it retains the idea of philanthropy as a luxury, albeit one with catastrophic potentials.   In terms of Amin’s four-sector economic model (1974), a ‘developed’ society can be defined in terms of its production of capital goods and mass consumption, while its ‘less developed’ counterpart largely produces exports, and  paradoxically, luxury goods.  It is thus possible to see LDCs like Ferguson’s example of Lesotho as exporting labour, and producing philanthropy and the absolution of liberal guilt.  A ‘developed’ country on the other hand would mass consume said philanthropism, and direct its production towards capital investments in the LDCs.  Yet just how does this collective body of NGOs function?   To return to the initial anthropomorphisation as spectre, the body can be seen as held together by a skeleton of intergovernmental organizations like the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund.   This is further fleshed out with a constellation of NGOs and imbued with a common development ideology. In analyzing the development project, Ferguson has volunteered that “one can only aim to be, in Nietzsche’s terms, a good physiologist”.  And indeed, it could be interesting to further map this project medically – with its addressing of symptoms not causes, reliance on capital injections, the one-cure-fits-all approach – and perhaps even consider foundations in terms of phallic endowment.   Yet even as these intergovernmentals provide an economic framework for the NGOs, they delimit these smaller organizations into a specific ideological project, with its own momentum.  It is then both unsurprising, if a little sinister, that the IMF acknowledges that “the Bank and the IMF are twin intergovernmental pillars supporting the structure of the world’s economic and financial order” (IMF [i]).   Exactly what is this economic and financial order? It may be useful to refer to George Orwell’s famous statement of "he who controls the present, controls the past. He who controls the past, controls the future" (1949).  Yet who controls the present now?  It is here tempting to immediately vilify an amorphous “System” that somehow represents the world economic elite.  However, it is certainly possible to point to the “G8” group of nations to answer the question of who controls the intergovernmentals in question.  It is perhaps best seen in the old boys’ club-type agreement in which the United States and Europe pick the President and Managing Director of the World Bank and IMF, respectively.  And although these picks are subject to approval from other member states, both institutions’ weighted systems of voting ensure that the interests of its largest shareholders are not only maintained but also furthered. In the World Bank, for example,  each the five members holding the largest number of shares – currently Germany, France, the United States, United Kingdom and Japan – have the privilege of appointing an Executive Director each.  The remaining (currently 19) Executive Directors are meanwhile rather tellingly elected by the other 166 nations currently in the World Bank.   Development discourse thus works to reimagine a society it in order maintain its specific assigned place in the world’s economic and financial order.  Following Ferguson, it can be seen as an institutionalised discourse generated by certain development intergovernmentals that simultaneously constructs an entire country “as a particular kind of object of knowledge, and creates a structure of knowledge around the object.  Interventions are then organized on the basis of this structure of knowledge, which, while failing” on their own terms, nonetheless have regular effects” (1994: xiv). Despite Amin’s protestations that “a society cannot be reduced to a mode of production” (1972:605),  the discourse does just that.  The society in question is slotted into a hierarchy of ‘development’, whether as a ‘less-developed’ country, or a card carrying member of the Third and Fourth worlds.  The civilizing mission is thus reincarnated in a rather more innocuous guise, replete with the sentiment of an economic ‘noblesse oblige’.   The approach of the development discourse is fourfold and works to reimagine the target society by assigning four characteristics.  As defined by Ferguson, these are as being ‘aboriginal’ and agriculture based, with a single national economy, and adherent to the principle of governmentality. More important than the perhaps inevitable degree of failure for him are the instrumental side effects, especially the increase in and reinforcement of bureaucratic state power, and the depoliticizing effects, which function by reimagining social realities that may be structural or political as purely technical and apolitical.   Ferguson goes on to argue that development functions by framing the stage for, and launching interventions that in reality have no effect (and possibly even intention) of eradicating poverty. Not unlike the recent usage of ‘weapons of mass destruction’ to launch a war in Iraq, poverty thus serves not as an end goal, but instead a point of entry.  As a result, the development project proves perversely ‘successful’ in its failures and in the resulting reproduction of a certain mode of power relations, both within the target state and on a global scale. Like the reinvented 19th-century Islam, it too functions as a “powerful means of integrating the new periphery and subordinating it to the design of the centre” (Amin 1972:517).   In a sense this development ideology can even be compared to an overly technicalised colour-by-numbers approach to photography, involving a limited amount of preselected filters.  The ‘developing solution’ is applied in the dark, before the photo is essentially hung out to dry while the technician waits for the results.  Yet like negatives on a film strip, the developer begins with choosing exactly which scenes (and scenarios) are to be developed, and comes armed with a fair understanding of how the developed product will turn out.  This analogy is however admittedly a very crude oversimplification.  It must also be acknowledged that even though they function within the development machine, and may be carried by its momentum, the majority of individuals and firms operating –albeit as cogs- within it come to the project with the best of intentions.   Further research look the labour dynamics within these smaller NGOs, many of whom underpay, and perhaps even exploit their employees and volunteers.  It would also be interesting to compare the modes and effects of development discourse – dubbed as ‘devspeak’ and ‘devthink’ – to the Orwellian ‘Newspeak’. And although entirely unaddressed here, it would also be fascinating to examine the alternatives to participation in the current hegemonic globalisation-through-development discourse, whether through Amin’s delinking, some form of protectionism, or otherwise. To paraphrase an anti-globalisation slogan, now more than ever, another world is possible, and another Africa is necessary. WORKS CITED:   Amin, Samir – Underdevelopment and Democracy in Black Africa: Origins and Contemporary Forms, Journal of Modern African Studies 10 – (1972 Amin, Samir - Accumulation and Development: A Theoretical Model, Review of African Political Economy Vol.1, No.1, (1974) Bataille, Georges  - The Accursed Share (1949) Ferguson, Jim – The Anti-Politics Machine (1994) Orwell, George – 1984 (1949) Rostow, W.W. – Stages of Growth (1971)     IMF [i] The IMF and the World Bank: How do they differ? http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/exrp/differ/differ.htm   From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Wed May 13 19:30:44 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 19:30:44 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] In sheer bad taste.? In-Reply-To: <341380d00905130638n45bf6efdpbf8e2f1b4f2cc881@mail.gmail.com> References: <61164a90905130628r55144f1ar2c12eca87f026630@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00905130638n45bf6efdpbf8e2f1b4f2cc881@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear all Rajen jee also forgot to mention that like the Malegaon blast case, no case has been proved against any of the accused right from the 2003 Mulund blasts case uptil the 2008 Guwahati blasts case. And therefore it's wrong to always accuse even a section of the Muslims as being anti-nationals, when nothing has been proved in any of these cases. And please folks! If you wish to say that the law doesn't work for Muslims but works for Hindus, then I can only sympathise with you. It's indeed interesting that Rajen jee is so close to Karkare jee that he can understand what may have gone in Karkare's mind. I would be very happy if he can also explain what is going on in the minds of those close to power corridors as well. That would be useful as fodder cake for our media and for the nation's cause as well, both from the nationalist and the humanist point of view. Regards Rakesh From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Wed May 13 19:57:03 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 19:57:03 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] NAXALBARI & WIKIPIDEA Message-ID: <406477.36054.qm@web94703.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Recently saw some biased facts about the naxaloite movement. OBviously an eye-sore to reactionary measures, the content provider has alas gone by the emergency-regulated media, which is again not the person's fault. With regard to strikes and '80s, off course the statements are factually correct except a lag time in various states, but it glorifies the mode and struggle pre-80's and the leadership that has existed, thus leaving no room for analysis beyond that point. I am neither a Naxalite nor an academic. But what I am strictly opposed to is doctoring of facts. Indeed Kolkata was reeling under bomb waves, violence and tension. But Jadavpur was not taken over. Moreover pipeguns were never made in machine tools shop as the narrator accuses. Nor did naxalites capture Jadavpur University. There was indeed exchange of Firing bombardment between NAXALITES, CPM members and at times the POLICE. 2 or three constables were killed, but Police was then agent of CPM. UNder Emergency Police arrested and bet up CPM students also without citing any reason, a fact ommited. Interesting is the error of ommision by the author when he concludes the VC Late Gopal Sen had been murdered by Naxalities, though this is merely a police report and no one has been punished by law for that. This noble man indeed introduced students and what is alleged cause forced in exams against Naxal wishes but that saved the carreer of many students whose families could not afford their education or unemployment beyond that year. Already an year had been wasted for some students. What has been never investigated is who can stab on cycle on last day of service but someone whose high handedness was intervened by the late professor. This was indeed a traumatised era,with CRPF and s etc later Army intervening. Fathers rarely talk about their ordeal to their sons, leaving such unverifiable comments alive. If on other hand agriculture is willfully hurt by low price etctp squash out labour and adjust machinery prices under bretton wood, then some kind of burgeoise nexus or political handshake is sniffed not with landowners as two centuries have passed. That lockouts keep on ongovt subsidised land demonstrate it. Also strikes part the worker was aware that labour laws were depriciating and the kind of public disorder imposed on strikes including rape loot to non-confirmers & insurance cover was removed. But none of the promises were enforcable for sheer lack of sterness on part of government, employment situation did not improved as state was interested in conforming to central policy of making investment attractive, do not ask me why crowd out local entepreneurs by undesirable ones.Ultimately it boils down to matter of personal interests. As lockouts continued with full support of government, it is also noticable how state government declared strikesand the way administration has been centralised do not ask me about role of police either. Segmented armed revolution must be squashed down by larger reactionary powers and army but apart from building fear the discontent spreads....... The erstwhile beares of these movements who dropped out of college or somehow managed to crash carreers have been well established under the present system. Even today everyone hates an armed rebellion but no one cares to look at economic constraints where such movements are organised. Somewhere the fire continues hidden more lucrative than before. PS Women fit in with more than equal stature in this narration though I cannot go on mentioning he/she and given present times where women have taken more progressive roles. I do not know, and with newspaper aided knowledge can not go well into other places. Comments and argument welcome. Now surf faster and smarter ! Check out the new Firefox 3 - Yahoo! Edition http://downloads.yahoo.com/in/firefox/?fr=om_email_firefox From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Wed May 13 20:03:07 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 20:03:07 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: [friendsforeveronnet] Difficulties faced by LOGO Designers.... Message-ID: <966139.81353.qm@web94715.mail.in2.yahoo.com> ----- Forwarded Message ---- From: Anil To: friends foreveronnet Sent: Wednesday, 13 May, 2009 11:41:25 AM Subject: [friendsforeveronnet] Difficulties faced by LOGO Designers....   To some, designing a logo seems to be an easy task. However, when most of the shapes and patterns are already taken, it becomes a real challenge to create something original. Compiled a list of similar logos to present the difficulties mentioned. Ametek and Axis Bank Applied Materials and Planned Parenthood Bank of Amercia and Amtrak Belfast and Food Drink Devon BigFix and Priority Parking Blackburn Market and Love Barrow British Paints and Pagan Osborne Carrier and Ford Cooperative Program and Colgate-Palmolive PseudoRoom and CPL DoshDosh and David Airey FDA and SEGA and CNN Freesat and Glasses Direct Gucci and Chanel Harbork and Fitucci Infiniti and Videocon Kamloops Broncos and Boise State Los Angeles Lakers and Los Angeles Clippers Laszlo and Etelos Macromedia and Mos Burger Mini and Bentley and Chrysler Motorcycle Riders Foundation and Southern Cruisers Riding Club Munix and Union Bank NBC and Nebraska ETV Network National Film Board and Virtual Global Taskforce One Spa and Manulife One Quark and Alcone and Scottish Arts Council and Artworkers Saturn and Bluestone Searchmash and Smashlab Simplebit and Logomaid Sinarmas and Airbus STADT and BRUHL Star and Maltastar Style Gala and Sumpter & Gonzalez LLP Suns Microsystems and Columbia Sportswear Company Swiat Zdrowia and Unilever Ubuntu and Human Rights Wayback Machine and Google Blogscoped Yatra and Pepsi . -                                                                   :Links:                                                                       - My Pics                  : professional. anil.googlepages .com/myoriginalp ics1 My Creativity        : professional. anil.googlepages .com/mycreation My Orkut Profile   : www.orkut.com/ Profile.aspx? uid=589868117446 2444559 Orkut Community : http://www.orkut. com/Community. aspx?cmm= 42302423 Yahoo! Group        : groups.yahoo. com/group/ friendsforeveron net My Website          : http://friendsforev eronnet.webnode. com Love Calculator    : http://friendsforev eronnet.webnode. com/love- calculator EBooks                  : http://friendsforev eronnet.webnode. com/e-books Free Calls SMS : Free CALLS and SMS using some tips and tricks....   __._,_.___ Messages in this topic (1) Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic Messages | Database Joing group of friends today...... follow this link....... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/friendsforeveronnet/join Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required) Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch format to Traditional Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe Recent Activity *  157 New MembersVisit Your Group Give Back Yahoo! for Good Get inspired by a good cause. Y! Toolbar Get it Free! easy 1-click access to your groups. Yahoo! Groups Start a group in 3 easy steps. Connect with others. . __,_._,___ Now surf faster and smarter ! Check out the new Firefox 3 - Yahoo! Edition http://downloads.yahoo.com/in/firefox/?fr=om_email_firefox From rahul_capri at yahoo.com Wed May 13 20:08:41 2009 From: rahul_capri at yahoo.com (Rahul Asthana) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 07:38:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Arundhati Roy in Karachi Message-ID: <494905.14090.qm@web53605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> The hallmark of Arundhati's "analysis" is try to force an equivalence of whatever is happening in Pakistan to that in India.It seems to be some kind of a game for her, like crossword puzzle.So she has to ignore reason from time to time. Secondly,she somehow develops cold feet in discussing the role of the Pakistani establishment in using terrorism as a matter of state policy.Probably she doesn't read newspapers.Her root cause analysis only involves India's occupation of Kashmir. Thirdly,for her Taliban are only freedom fighters who were created with funding from the big,bad America.Pakistan's role in the creation of Taliban is overlooked again.Also overlooked is the various news items like this one(http://www.rawa.org/mazar6.htm),which expose the Islamic fascist nature of Taliban.Again,probably she doesn't read newspapers. Here is the transcript of her talk with BBC Urdu. http://blog.outlookindia.com/default.aspx?ddm=10&pid=1758&eid=5 --- On Wed, 5/13/09, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Arundhati Roy in Karachi > To: "Pawan Durani" > Cc: "reader-list at sarai.net list" > Date: Wednesday, May 13, 2009, 12:08 PM > Dear All, > > The statement attributed to Ms. Roy comes from a reporters > summary in  > the Dawn newspaper of her interactions at the Karachi > Womens Action  > Forum meeting. While its exact contents do need to be > verified, the  > fact that there is a synergy between the broader > Hindutva  > 'Parivar' (Family) and sections of the armed forces in > India (just as  > there is between Islamists and broad sections of the > military  > estabishment in Pakistan, which the report does refer to) > should not  > in itself be seen as surprising. > > Perhaps memories are short, but the 'Abhinav Bharat' > episode and the  > Malegaon Blast case, in which a serving miiitary > intelligence officer  > Col. S.P. Purohit is one of the accused (and whose > involvement in the  > attack on the Samjhauta Train to Pakistan is also > under  > invesitgation) is an indication of the fact that contact > between  > sections of the armed forces and the Hindutva 'Parivar' is > not  > exactly a figure of fancy. As of now, the murky realities > of the  > Malegaon case suggests that we only know the tip of an > iceberg. > > And finally, is there a problem in spelling a person's name > as it  > should be spelled, or has Pawan Durani been somehow > rendered  > incapable of such a simple task? Have we come to such a > pass that  > along with everything else, this list will now also have to > undertake  > the burden of conducting object lessons in orthography and > spelling? > > regards, > > Shuddha > > > > > On 13-May-09, at 11:27 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > I am surprised ....."RSS has inflitrated the > Indian  > > Army" ........What are the basis on which such a > general statement  > > is made by Aran-Dhat-Tri-Ki-Roy ? > > > > Pawan > > > > On Wed, May 13, 2009 at 8:07 AM, Shuddhabrata > Sengupta  > > > wrote: > > Dear All, > > > > The Delhi based writer Arundhati Roy has recently been > in Karachi, > > Pakistan at the invitation of civil society > organizations and womens > > rights groups. Here are two reports from Dawn, a > Karachi based daily, > > about meetings she attended (with an organization > titled 'Womens > > Action Forum') and interactions she had. I hope that > they will be of > > interest to people on the list. > > > > regards, > > > > Shuddha > > ------------------------------ > > 1. > > > > Arundhati Roy and the WAF > > By Zubeida Mustafa > > Wednesday, 13 May, 2009 > > http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/ > > pakistan/11-arundhati-roy-and-the-waf--02 > > > > ‘WOMEN to reclaim public spaces: a programme of > defiance and > > resistance.’ That is how the Women’s Action Forum > defined the meeting > > it held last Friday to mobilise public opinion against > extremism. > > > > Although WAF’s concern to protect the space women > have created in the > > public mainstream has been on its agenda for some > time, this goal has > > acquired urgency in the wake of the events in Swat. > The Nizam-i-Adl > > Regulation in Malakand Division has brought people > face to face with > > the ugly reality of the Talibanisation phenomenon in > the rural > > backwaters as well as in modern urban centres. > > > > The Karachi meeting was well-attended by WAF’s > standards. It is not > > easy to mobilise women for any cause in this city of > multiple > > identities. The metropolis has a diversity of > populations, cultures, > > languages and economic interests posing a challenge to > bring women > > together on a single platform. Learning from its > experience of the > > lawyers’ movement that had succeeded in uniting the > extreme right and > > centrist political parties and the professionals on a > single-point > > agenda for two years, WAF also decided to make > Talibanisation and > > women the focal issue. > > > > That strategy paid off. Women had already been > galvanised by the > > video showing the flogging of a teenaged girl in Swat > that activist > > Samar Minallah courageously brought to the world > media’s attention, > > invoking in the process the wrath of the Taliban whose > fatwa declared > > her as wajibul qatl. The oppression of women is an > issue that cuts > > across classes to touch every female raw nerve. > Whether it is the > > smartly turned-out high-society woman or the working > woman who slaves > > all day long to feed an army of children and a > drug-addict husband or > > even the heavily veiled orthodox woman, each type, > with few > > exceptions, has expressed her horror at the flogging > incident. > > > > Hence on this occasion WAF managed to bring a diverse > crowd together > > — the activists reaching out to the grassroots such > as Amar Sindhu > > from Sindh University Hyderabad, Parveen Rahman from > the Orangi Pilot > > Project and Sadiqa Salahuddin whose Indus Resource > Centre runs > > schools in the interior of Sindh, as well as the > elites sitting side > > by side with the three van-loads of women from Neelum > Colony who > > clean the homes of the rich and will be starting their > adult literacy > > classes from next week, courtesy Shabina’s Garage > School. > > > > The variety of speakers focusing on the theme of > women’s oppression > > by the Taliban found a responsive audience. But the > question that > > made many ponder was: what next? Can this interest be > sustained? If > > they had not already started probing for answers, the > thought- > > provoking speech by Arundhati Roy, the renowned Indian > writer and > > activist, did the trick. Coming from New Delhi on a > solidarity > > mission to WAF’s meeting. Roy raised four issues: > > > > • What do we mean by the Taliban and what gave birth > to them? > > > > • Define your own space and do not surrender it. > > > > • Don’t allow yourself to be forced into making > choices of the ‘with > > us or against us’ type. > > > > • Don’t be selective in your injustices. > > > > These should provide food for thought for those > struggling against > > oppression. Without being specific, Roy exhorted her > audience to look > > into the structures and systems that lead to a > situation of such > > extreme oppression, some of which is rooted in the > class conflict. > > She believes one has to take a ‘total view’ of the > matter, which she > > admitted she had come to Pakistan to understand. > > > > The fact is that we live in a largely grey area where > the lines are > > not sharply drawn. There is a lot of overlapping > between issues > > touching gender, class, ethnicity, culture, political > power and > > economic gains. It is this reality one has to > recognise and see how > > the contradictions can be addressed. The demand to > take sides > > unambiguously, expressed so vividly in the days > following 9/11 by > > George Bush as ‘You are with us or against us,’ > can create a dilemma > > for people when negotiating these grey areas. > > > > Roy’s advice to avoid being ‘with us or against > us’ has implications > > she didn’t elucidate. In times when action is needed > and a position > > has to be taken — even if verbally — inaction or > neutrality > > unwittingly props up the status quo. If the status quo > has been > > created by inimical forces ostensibly now fighting > their self-created > > Frankenstein, where does one go? > > > > The practical approach would be to prioritise > strategies that can be > > adapted to changing circumstances. And what should > these be? Here Roy > > has a point when she says that one cannot be selective > in the > > justices one espouses and the injustices one > denounces. In this > > context Pakistanis find themselves trapped between the > devil and the > > deep sea. Attempting to rectify a problem here and > another there > > really doesn’t help because our entire state > structure is colonial, > > as a booklet titled Making Pakistan a Tenable State > points out. > > > > Produced by 17 intellectuals, with Dr Mubashir Hasan > as the driving > > force, the book describes the state structure as being > ‘based on the > > concentration of political and administrative power in > the steel > > frame of the civil services under the protection of > the armed forces. > > The structure could be defined as > feudal-military-bureaucratic.’ > > > > The problem is systemic. In a state ruled by ‘a > government of the > > elites, by the elites, for the elites’ it is > inevitable that it is > > authoritarian and exploitative. Change can come when > there is > > mobilisation of the people for change. When WAF > mobilises women to > > fight against injustices it prepares them to also > fight for change. > > The need is to empower them and instill confidence in > them. > > > > Two women I have written about who are fighting for > change come from > > the poorest of the poor and theirs is not a feminist > agenda. They are > > fighting to have a roof above their heads. One is the > wife of Walidad > > from Muhammad Essa Khaskheli who came all the way to > Karachi in the > > heat of summer to save her goth from being snapped up > by a feudal in > > the neighbourhood. > > > > The other is Parveen whose one-room ‘mansion’ in a > katchi abadi of > > Clifton is now under threat of demolition. She is > resisting the > > exploitative system that cannot provide shelter to the > poor. > > Initially she hesitated — was it ‘proper’ for a > woman to protest she > > had asked me. When encouraged she decided it was. > These are women on > > the way to empowerment and that is WAF’s agenda. > > > >  2. > > > > ‘I’m here to understand what you mean by > Taliban’ > > by Salman Siddiqui > > Friday, 08 May, 2009 > > http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/ > > pakistan/arundhati-roy-sal-02 > > > > Is there a threat of Talibanisation engulfing the > entire region? > > > > I think it has already engulfed our region. I think > there’s a need > > for a very clear thinking (on this issue of > Talibanisation). In > > India, there are two kinds of terrorism: one is > Islamic terrorism and > > the other Maoist terrorism. But this term terrorism, > we must ask, > > what do they mean by it. > > > > In Pakistan, I’m here to understand what they mean > by this term. When > > we say we must fight the Taliban or must defeat them, > what does it > > mean? I’m here to understand what you mean when you > say Taliban. Do > > you mean a militant? Do you mean an ideology? Exactly > what is it that > > is being fought? That needs to be clarified. > > > > I think both needs to be fought. But if it’s an > ideology it has to be > > fought differently, while if it’s a person with a > gun then it has to > > be fought differently. We know from the history of the > war on terror > > that a military strategy is only making matters worse > all over the > > world. The war on terror has made the world a more > dangerous place. > > In India, they have been fighting insurgencies > military since 1947 > > and it has become a more dangerous place. > > > > Swat and the Taliban boy > > > > It is very important for me to understand what exactly > is going in > > Swat. How did it start? A Taliban boy asked me why > women can’t be > > like plastic bags and banned. The point is that the > plastic bag was > > made in a factory but so was the boy. He was made in a > factory that > > is producing this kind of mind(set). (The question is) > who owns that > > factory, who funds it? Unless we deal with that > factory, dealing with > > the boy doesn’t help us. > > > > Water is the main issue > > > > One danger in Pakistan is that we talk about the > threat of Taliban so > > much that other important issues lose focus. In my > view, the problem > > of water in the world will become the most important > problem.  I > > think big dams are economically unviable, > environmentally > > unsustainable and politically undemocratic. They are a > way of taking > > away a river from the poor and giving it to the rich. > Like in India, > > there’s an issue of SEZs (Special Economic Zones), > whereby the land > > of the people are given to corporations. But the > bigger problem is > > that there are making dams and giving water to the > industries. This > > way the people who live in villages by the streams and > rivers have no > > water for themselves. So building dams is one of the > most > > ecologically destructive things that you can do. > > > > Fight over Siachen glacier > > > > There are thousands of Pakistani and Indian soldiers > deployed on the > > Siachen glacier. Both of our countries are spending > billions of > > dollars on high altitude warfare and weapons. The > whole of the > > Siachen glacier is sort of an icy monument to human > folly. Each day > > it is being filled with ice axes, old boots, tents and > so on. > > Meanwhile, that battlefield is melting. Siachen > glacier is about half > > its size now. It’s not melting because the Indian > and Pakistani > > soldiers are on it. But it’s because people > somewhere on the other > > side of the world are leading a good life….in > countries that call > > themselves democracies that believe in human rights > and free speech. > > Their economies depend on selling weapons to both of > us. Now, when > > that glacier melts, there will be floods first, then > there will be a > > drought and then we’ll have even more reasons to > fight. We’ll buy > > more weapons from those democracies and in this way > human beings will > > prove themselves to be the stupidest animals on > earth. > > > > Money and the Indian elections > > > > Whatever system of government you have, whether it is > a military > > dictatorship or a democracy, and you have that for a > long time, > > eventually big money manages to subvert it. That has > begun to happen > > even in a democracy (like India). For example, > political parties need > > a lot of publicity, but the media is also run by > corporate money. If > > you look at the big political parties like the > Congress and the BJP, > > you see how much money is being put out just in their > advertising > > budgets. Now where does all that come from? > > > > RSS and the Indian establishment > > > > The RSS has infiltrated everything to a great extent. > In India, we > > have 120-150 million Muslims and it’s considered a > minority…It’s > > impossible to not belong to a minority of some sort in > India. Caste > > or ethnicity or religion or whatever, in some way > everyone belongs to > > a minority. The fights that many of us are waging > against the RSS and > > against the BJP are to say that we live in a society > which > > accommodates everybody. Everybody doesn’t have to > love everybody, but > > everybody has to be accommodated.  The RSS has > infiltrated the > > (Indian) army as much as various kinds of Wahabism or > other kinds of > > religious ideology have infiltrated the ISI or the > armed forces in > > Pakistan. They are human beings like everyone else and > they too get > > influenced. > > > > Indian media and sensationalizing of news coming out > from Pakistan > > > > I think the media in both countries play this game. > Whenever > > something happens here, they hype it up there, while > when something > > happens there, they hype the news here. We say that we > live in times > > of an information revolution and free press, but even > then nobody > > gets to know the complete picture… > > > > The Pakistani media is a little different from the > Indian media. They > > stand on a slightly different foundation. But both > share the problem > > of a lack of accountability…The trouble in India is > that 90 per cent > > of their revenue comes from the corporate > sector…there’s increasing > > privatization and corporatization of governance, > education, health, > > infrastructure and water management. So in India you > see an open > > criticism of governance, but very rarely criticism of > corporations. > > It’s a structural problem. It’s not about good > people or bad people. > > It’s just that you can’t expect a company to work > against itself. > > This is a very serious issue which needs to be sorted > out. > > > > Is the Indian army a sacred cow? > > > > The Indian army is quite a sacred cow especially on TV > and Bollywood. > > But at the same time if you talk to the people in the > Indian army, > > they say that they feel that the media is very > critical of them. I > > don’t share that view. I think it is a sacred cow. > People are willing > > to give them a lot of leeway. > > > > Women and their fight for justice > > > > When women fight for justice, we must fight for every > kind of justice… > > We must fight for justice for men and justice for > children. Because > > if you fight for one kind of justice and you tolerate > another, then > > it’s a pretty hollow fight. You may not be able to > fight every > > battle, but you should be able to put yourself on the > line and say I > > believe this. > > > > > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > > Raqs Media Collective > > shuddha at sarai.net > > www.sarai.net > > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with  > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From c.anupam at gmail.com Wed May 13 20:44:00 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 20:44:00 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: [friendsforeveronnet] Difficulties faced by LOGO Designers.... In-Reply-To: <966139.81353.qm@web94715.mail.in2.yahoo.com> References: <966139.81353.qm@web94715.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <341380d00905130814r696dcce7idf87747631370258@mail.gmail.com> wow.. this is really interesting. i was wondering if FDA, CNN logos follow similar generic patterns in terms of fonts and other such things. also if these confusions are intentional. would appreciate if you can share some perspectives on logo designing. On 5/13/09, subhrodip sengupta wrote: > > > > > > ----- Forwarded Message ---- > From: Anil > To: friends foreveronnet > Sent: Wednesday, 13 May, 2009 11:41:25 AM > Subject: [friendsforeveronnet] Difficulties faced by LOGO Designers.... > > > > > > > > > > To some, designing a logo seems to be an easy task. However, when most of > the shapes and patterns are already taken, it becomes a real challenge to > create something original. Compiled a list of similar logos to present the > difficulties mentioned. > Ametek and Axis Bank > Applied Materials and Planned Parenthood > Bank of Amercia and Amtrak > Belfast and Food Drink Devon > BigFix and Priority Parking > Blackburn Market and Love Barrow > British Paints and Pagan Osborne > Carrier and Ford > Cooperative Program and Colgate-Palmolive > PseudoRoom and CPL > DoshDosh and David Airey > FDA and SEGA and CNN > Freesat and Glasses Direct > Gucci and Chanel > Harbork and Fitucci > Infiniti and Videocon > Kamloops Broncos and Boise State > Los Angeles Lakers and Los Angeles Clippers > Laszlo and Etelos > Macromedia and Mos Burger > Mini and Bentley and Chrysler > Motorcycle Riders Foundation and Southern Cruisers Riding Club > Munix and Union Bank > NBC and Nebraska ETV Network > National Film Board and Virtual Global Taskforce > One Spa and Manulife One > Quark and Alcone and Scottish Arts Council and Artworkers > Saturn and Bluestone > Searchmash and Smashlab > Simplebit and Logomaid > Sinarmas and Airbus > STADT and BRUHL > Star and Maltastar > Style Gala and Sumpter & Gonzalez LLP > Suns Microsystems and Columbia Sportswear Company > Swiat Zdrowia and Unilever > Ubuntu and Human Rights > Wayback Machine and Google Blogscoped > Yatra and Pepsi > . > > > - > :Links: > - > My Pics : professional. anil.googlepages .com/myoriginalp > ics1 > My Creativity : professional. anil.googlepages .com/mycreation > My Orkut Profile : www.orkut.com/ Profile.aspx? uid=589868117446 2444559 > Orkut Community : http://www.orkut. com/Community. aspx?cmm= 42302423 > Yahoo! Group : groups.yahoo. com/group/ friendsforeveron net > My Website : http://friendsforev eronnet.webnode. com > Love Calculator : http://friendsforev eronnet.webnode. com/love- > calculator > EBooks : http://friendsforev eronnet.webnode. com/e-books > Free Calls SMS : Free CALLS and SMS using some tips and tricks.... > > __._,_.___ > Messages in this topic (1) Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic > Messages | Database > Joing group of friends today...... follow this link....... > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/friendsforeveronnet/join > > Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required) > Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch format > to Traditional > Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe > Recent Activity > * 157 > New MembersVisit Your Group > Give Back > Yahoo! for Good > Get inspired > by a good cause. > Y! Toolbar > Get it Free! > easy 1-click access > to your groups. > Yahoo! Groups > Start a group > in 3 easy steps. > Connect with others. > . > > __,_._,___ > > > Now surf faster and smarter ! Check out the new Firefox 3 - Yahoo! > Edition http://downloads.yahoo.com/in/firefox/?fr=om_email_firefox > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed May 13 23:56:27 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 23:56:27 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Arundhati Roy in Karachi In-Reply-To: <9B215503-D1A3-493D-9DDF-8C655482A258@sarai.net> References: <494905.14090.qm@web53605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <9B215503-D1A3-493D-9DDF-8C655482A258@sarai.net> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70905131126g2dd27757jd402502cd65f9d5b@mail.gmail.com> Dear Shuddha , Is Indian army controlled by Let ? Have not some lunatic Islamic fanatics of Indian army joined Let ? Does it amount to a general statement ? Aran - Dhat -Teri -Ki Roys statement of RSS is pathetic and whosover supports that , i pity that intelligence. Yes , i would spell her as I wish .......i usually misspell "dustbins" Pawan On Wed, May 13, 2009 at 8:45 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > Pawan, > You are being specious in your arguments here. In the report, Roy is > reported as discussiing some specific points of equivalence - of the way in > which the media behaves in both countries, of the influence of far right > politics in the making of military and security agendas, this does not > amount to an equivalence of India and Pakistan. In any case, the two > entitities, as states, are not arithmetical sums that add up to identitites, > two things do not have to be identical for one to maintain a critical > perspective towards both. > > As for the Taliban, Roy is explicitly critical (in this report) of the way > it treats women, and she states (again) explicitly that the Taliban is a > form of terror that needs to be fought. Please read the text again if this > is not clear to you on first reading. > > She merely asks us to try and undertake a more sopisticated understanding > of the phonomenon (like Ashis Nandy in the other text that I had forwarded > earlier this morning). In order to combat it, it needs to be understood. And > the factors that give rise to phenomena like the Taliban, which are more > than simply, the instrumentalities of realpolitik and the actions of states, > need to be accounted for. > > Shuddha > > > > > Roy is reported in the text as saying that the Taliban needs to be fought. > I don't see how > > Roy says - " > On 13-May-09, at 8:08 PM, Rahul Asthana wrote: > > > The hallmark of Arundhati's "analysis" is try to force an equivalence of > whatever is happening in Pakistan to that in India.It seems to be some > kind of a game for her, like crossword puzzle.So she has to ignore reason > from time to time. > Secondly,she somehow develops cold feet in discussing the role of the > Pakistani establishment in using terrorism as a matter of state > policy.Probably she doesn't read newspapers.Her root cause analysis only > involves India's occupation of Kashmir. > Thirdly,for her Taliban are only freedom fighters who were created with > funding from the big,bad America.Pakistan's role in the creation of Taliban > is overlooked again.Also overlooked is the various news items like this one( > http://www.rawa.org/mazar6.htm),which expose the Islamic fascist nature of > Taliban.Again,probably she doesn't read newspapers. > > Here is the transcript of her talk with BBC Urdu. > http://blog.outlookindia.com/default.aspx?ddm=10&pid=1758&eid=5 > > > --- On Wed, 5/13/09, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Arundhati Roy in Karachi > To: "Pawan Durani" > Cc: "reader-list at sarai.net list" > Date: Wednesday, May 13, 2009, 12:08 PM > Dear All, > > The statement attributed to Ms. Roy comes from a reporters > summary in > the Dawn newspaper of her interactions at the Karachi > Womens Action > Forum meeting. While its exact contents do need to be > verified, the > fact that there is a synergy between the broader > Hindutva > 'Parivar' (Family) and sections of the armed forces in > India (just as > there is between Islamists and broad sections of the > military > estabishment in Pakistan, which the report does refer to) > should not > in itself be seen as surprising. > > Perhaps memories are short, but the 'Abhinav Bharat' > episode and the > Malegaon Blast case, in which a serving miiitary > intelligence officer > Col. S.P. Purohit is one of the accused (and whose > involvement in the > attack on the Samjhauta Train to Pakistan is also > under > invesitgation) is an indication of the fact that contact > between > sections of the armed forces and the Hindutva 'Parivar' is > not > exactly a figure of fancy. As of now, the murky realities > of the > Malegaon case suggests that we only know the tip of an > iceberg. > > And finally, is there a problem in spelling a person's name > as it > should be spelled, or has Pawan Durani been somehow > rendered > incapable of such a simple task? Have we come to such a > pass that > along with everything else, this list will now also have to > undertake > the burden of conducting object lessons in orthography and > spelling? > > regards, > > Shuddha > > > > > On 13-May-09, at 11:27 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > > I am surprised ....."RSS has inflitrated the > > Indian > > Army" ........What are the basis on which such a > > general statement > > is made by Aran-Dhat-Tri-Ki-Roy ? > > Pawan > > On Wed, May 13, 2009 at 8:07 AM, Shuddhabrata > > Sengupta > > > > wrote: > > Dear All, > > The Delhi based writer Arundhati Roy has recently been > > in Karachi, > > Pakistan at the invitation of civil society > > organizations and womens > > rights groups. Here are two reports from Dawn, a > > Karachi based daily, > > about meetings she attended (with an organization > > titled 'Womens > > Action Forum') and interactions she had. I hope that > > they will be of > > interest to people on the list. > > regards, > > Shuddha > ------------------------------ > 1. > > Arundhati Roy and the WAF > By Zubeida Mustafa > Wednesday, 13 May, 2009 > http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/ > pakistan/11-arundhati-roy-and-the-waf--02 > > ‘WOMEN to reclaim public spaces: a programme of > > defiance and > > resistance.’ That is how the Women’s Action Forum > > defined the meeting > > it held last Friday to mobilise public opinion against > > extremism. > > > Although WAF’s concern to protect the space women > > have created in the > > public mainstream has been on its agenda for some > > time, this goal has > > acquired urgency in the wake of the events in Swat. > > The Nizam-i-Adl > > Regulation in Malakand Division has brought people > > face to face with > > the ugly reality of the Talibanisation phenomenon in > > the rural > > backwaters as well as in modern urban centres. > > The Karachi meeting was well-attended by WAF’s > > standards. It is not > > easy to mobilise women for any cause in this city of > > multiple > > identities. The metropolis has a diversity of > > populations, cultures, > > languages and economic interests posing a challenge to > > bring women > > together on a single platform. Learning from its > > experience of the > > lawyers’ movement that had succeeded in uniting the > > extreme right and > > centrist political parties and the professionals on a > > single-point > > agenda for two years, WAF also decided to make > > Talibanisation and > > women the focal issue. > > That strategy paid off. Women had already been > > galvanised by the > > video showing the flogging of a teenaged girl in Swat > > that activist > > Samar Minallah courageously brought to the world > > media’s attention, > > invoking in the process the wrath of the Taliban whose > > fatwa declared > > her as wajibul qatl. The oppression of women is an > > issue that cuts > > across classes to touch every female raw nerve. > > Whether it is the > > smartly turned-out high-society woman or the working > > woman who slaves > > all day long to feed an army of children and a > > drug-addict husband or > > even the heavily veiled orthodox woman, each type, > > with few > > exceptions, has expressed her horror at the flogging > > incident. > > > Hence on this occasion WAF managed to bring a diverse > > crowd together > > — the activists reaching out to the grassroots such > > as Amar Sindhu > > from Sindh University Hyderabad, Parveen Rahman from > > the Orangi Pilot > > Project and Sadiqa Salahuddin whose Indus Resource > > Centre runs > > schools in the interior of Sindh, as well as the > > elites sitting side > > by side with the three van-loads of women from Neelum > > Colony who > > clean the homes of the rich and will be starting their > > adult literacy > > classes from next week, courtesy Shabina’s Garage > > School. > > > The variety of speakers focusing on the theme of > > women’s oppression > > by the Taliban found a responsive audience. But the > > question that > > made many ponder was: what next? Can this interest be > > sustained? If > > they had not already started probing for answers, the > > thought- > > provoking speech by Arundhati Roy, the renowned Indian > > writer and > > activist, did the trick. Coming from New Delhi on a > > solidarity > > mission to WAF’s meeting. Roy raised four issues: > > • What do we mean by the Taliban and what gave birth > > to them? > > > • Define your own space and do not surrender it. > > • Don’t allow yourself to be forced into making > > choices of the ‘with > > us or against us’ type. > > • Don’t be selective in your injustices. > > These should provide food for thought for those > > struggling against > > oppression. Without being specific, Roy exhorted her > > audience to look > > into the structures and systems that lead to a > > situation of such > > extreme oppression, some of which is rooted in the > > class conflict. > > She believes one has to take a ‘total view’ of the > > matter, which she > > admitted she had come to Pakistan to understand. > > The fact is that we live in a largely grey area where > > the lines are > > not sharply drawn. There is a lot of overlapping > > between issues > > touching gender, class, ethnicity, culture, political > > power and > > economic gains. It is this reality one has to > > recognise and see how > > the contradictions can be addressed. The demand to > > take sides > > unambiguously, expressed so vividly in the days > > following 9/11 by > > George Bush as ‘You are with us or against us,’ > > can create a dilemma > > for people when negotiating these grey areas. > > Roy’s advice to avoid being ‘with us or against > > us’ has implications > > she didn’t elucidate. In times when action is needed > > and a position > > has to be taken — even if verbally — inaction or > > neutrality > > unwittingly props up the status quo. If the status quo > > has been > > created by inimical forces ostensibly now fighting > > their self-created > > Frankenstein, where does one go? > > The practical approach would be to prioritise > > strategies that can be > > adapted to changing circumstances. And what should > > these be? Here Roy > > has a point when she says that one cannot be selective > > in the > > justices one espouses and the injustices one > > denounces. In this > > context Pakistanis find themselves trapped between the > > devil and the > > deep sea. Attempting to rectify a problem here and > > another there > > really doesn’t help because our entire state > > structure is colonial, > > as a booklet titled Making Pakistan a Tenable State > > points out. > > > Produced by 17 intellectuals, with Dr Mubashir Hasan > > as the driving > > force, the book describes the state structure as being > > ‘based on the > > concentration of political and administrative power in > > the steel > > frame of the civil services under the protection of > > the armed forces. > > The structure could be defined as > > feudal-military-bureaucratic.’ > > > The problem is systemic. In a state ruled by ‘a > > government of the > > elites, by the elites, for the elites’ it is > > inevitable that it is > > authoritarian and exploitative. Change can come when > > there is > > mobilisation of the people for change. When WAF > > mobilises women to > > fight against injustices it prepares them to also > > fight for change. > > The need is to empower them and instill confidence in > > them. > > > Two women I have written about who are fighting for > > change come from > > the poorest of the poor and theirs is not a feminist > > agenda. They are > > fighting to have a roof above their heads. One is the > > wife of Walidad > > from Muhammad Essa Khaskheli who came all the way to > > Karachi in the > > heat of summer to save her goth from being snapped up > > by a feudal in > > the neighbourhood. > > The other is Parveen whose one-room ‘mansion’ in a > > katchi abadi of > > Clifton is now under threat of demolition. She is > > resisting the > > exploitative system that cannot provide shelter to the > > poor. > > Initially she hesitated — was it ‘proper’ for a > > woman to protest she > > had asked me. When encouraged she decided it was. > > These are women on > > the way to empowerment and that is WAF’s agenda. > > 2. > > ‘I’m here to understand what you mean by > > Taliban’ > > by Salman Siddiqui > Friday, 08 May, 2009 > http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/ > pakistan/arundhati-roy-sal-02 > > Is there a threat of Talibanisation engulfing the > > entire region? > > > I think it has already engulfed our region. I think > > there’s a need > > for a very clear thinking (on this issue of > > Talibanisation). In > > India, there are two kinds of terrorism: one is > > Islamic terrorism and > > the other Maoist terrorism. But this term terrorism, > > we must ask, > > what do they mean by it. > > In Pakistan, I’m here to understand what they mean > > by this term. When > > we say we must fight the Taliban or must defeat them, > > what does it > > mean? I’m here to understand what you mean when you > > say Taliban. Do > > you mean a militant? Do you mean an ideology? Exactly > > what is it that > > is being fought? That needs to be clarified. > > I think both needs to be fought. But if it’s an > > ideology it has to be > > fought differently, while if it’s a person with a > > gun then it has to > > be fought differently. We know from the history of the > > war on terror > > that a military strategy is only making matters worse > > all over the > > world. The war on terror has made the world a more > > dangerous place. > > In India, they have been fighting insurgencies > > military since 1947 > > and it has become a more dangerous place. > > Swat and the Taliban boy > > It is very important for me to understand what exactly > > is going in > > Swat. How did it start? A Taliban boy asked me why > > women can’t be > > like plastic bags and banned. The point is that the > > plastic bag was > > made in a factory but so was the boy. He was made in a > > factory that > > is producing this kind of mind(set). (The question is) > > who owns that > > factory, who funds it? Unless we deal with that > > factory, dealing with > > the boy doesn’t help us. > > Water is the main issue > > One danger in Pakistan is that we talk about the > > threat of Taliban so > > much that other important issues lose focus. In my > > view, the problem > > of water in the world will become the most important > > problem. I > > think big dams are economically unviable, > > environmentally > > unsustainable and politically undemocratic. They are a > > way of taking > > away a river from the poor and giving it to the rich. > > Like in India, > > there’s an issue of SEZs (Special Economic Zones), > > whereby the land > > of the people are given to corporations. But the > > bigger problem is > > that there are making dams and giving water to the > > industries. This > > way the people who live in villages by the streams and > > rivers have no > > water for themselves. So building dams is one of the > > most > > ecologically destructive things that you can do. > > Fight over Siachen glacier > > There are thousands of Pakistani and Indian soldiers > > deployed on the > > Siachen glacier. Both of our countries are spending > > billions of > > dollars on high altitude warfare and weapons. The > > whole of the > > Siachen glacier is sort of an icy monument to human > > folly. Each day > > it is being filled with ice axes, old boots, tents and > > so on. > > Meanwhile, that battlefield is melting. Siachen > > glacier is about half > > its size now. It’s not melting because the Indian > > and Pakistani > > soldiers are on it. But it’s because people > > somewhere on the other > > side of the world are leading a good life….in > > countries that call > > themselves democracies that believe in human rights > > and free speech. > > Their economies depend on selling weapons to both of > > us. Now, when > > that glacier melts, there will be floods first, then > > there will be a > > drought and then we’ll have even more reasons to > > fight. We’ll buy > > more weapons from those democracies and in this way > > human beings will > > prove themselves to be the stupidest animals on > > earth. > > > Money and the Indian elections > > Whatever system of government you have, whether it is > > a military > > dictatorship or a democracy, and you have that for a > > long time, > > eventually big money manages to subvert it. That has > > begun to happen > > even in a democracy (like India). For example, > > political parties need > > a lot of publicity, but the media is also run by > > corporate money. If > > you look at the big political parties like the > > Congress and the BJP, > > you see how much money is being put out just in their > > advertising > > budgets. Now where does all that come from? > > RSS and the Indian establishment > > The RSS has infiltrated everything to a great extent. > > In India, we > > have 120-150 million Muslims and it’s considered a > > minority…It’s > > impossible to not belong to a minority of some sort in > > India. Caste > > or ethnicity or religion or whatever, in some way > > everyone belongs to > > a minority. The fights that many of us are waging > > against the RSS and > > against the BJP are to say that we live in a society > > which > > accommodates everybody. Everybody doesn’t have to > > love everybody, but > > everybody has to be accommodated. The RSS has > > infiltrated the > > (Indian) army as much as various kinds of Wahabism or > > other kinds of > > religious ideology have infiltrated the ISI or the > > armed forces in > > Pakistan. They are human beings like everyone else and > > they too get > > influenced. > > Indian media and sensationalizing of news coming out > > from Pakistan > > > I think the media in both countries play this game. > > Whenever > > something happens here, they hype it up there, while > > when something > > happens there, they hype the news here. We say that we > > live in times > > of an information revolution and free press, but even > > then nobody > > gets to know the complete picture… > > The Pakistani media is a little different from the > > Indian media. They > > stand on a slightly different foundation. But both > > share the problem > > of a lack of accountability…The trouble in India is > > that 90 per cent > > of their revenue comes from the corporate > > sector…there’s increasing > > privatization and corporatization of governance, > > education, health, > > infrastructure and water management. So in India you > > see an open > > criticism of governance, but very rarely criticism of > > corporations. > > It’s a structural problem. It’s not about good > > people or bad people. > > It’s just that you can’t expect a company to work > > against itself. > > This is a very serious issue which needs to be sorted > > out. > > > Is the Indian army a sacred cow? > > The Indian army is quite a sacred cow especially on TV > > and Bollywood. > > But at the same time if you talk to the people in the > > Indian army, > > they say that they feel that the media is very > > critical of them. I > > don’t share that view. I think it is a sacred cow. > > People are willing > > to give them a lot of leeway. > > Women and their fight for justice > > When women fight for justice, we must fight for every > > kind of justice… > > We must fight for justice for men and justice for > > children. Because > > if you fight for one kind of justice and you tolerate > > another, then > > it’s a pretty hollow fight. You may not be able to > > fight every > > battle, but you should be able to put yourself on the > > line and say I > > believe this. > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > > city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with > > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > From indersalim at gmail.com Thu May 14 00:03:55 2009 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 00:03:55 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Arundhati Roy in Karachi In-Reply-To: <494905.14090.qm@web53605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <494905.14090.qm@web53605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70905131133k58dca7acmd421afd9f92a1595@mail.gmail.com> Dear all, >From review,: at WAF’s meeting, Roy raised four issues: • What do we mean by the Taliban and what gave birth to them? • Define your own space and do not surrender it. • Don’t allow yourself to be forced into making choices of the ‘with us or against us’ type. • Don’t be selective in your injustices. If this is what she said, one might elucidate : 1. - for the intellectual world, the genesis of Taliban is well sorted out, she only reminded the audience (mostly women ) that what are the fresher ways to understand Taliban, since nexus between them and decent world is quite complicit , and so we need to be careful before we declare ' hate Taliban' slogan -2. Here, she looked very focused on the women in the audience, who need to know their political rights, which includes their ' body' in terms of their respective feminist beings 3. It is has been often a problem with politically conscious women to develop mindsets against the opposite sex i.e males. so Roy suggested that Males can be their friends, and supporters of feminist thoughts as well. . so no prejudices, please 4. There has been violence by women on the women, mostly grass root level even, so one should keep on asking questions to the inner self on and consult conscience to know what injustice? It is not surprising, to know that why women related issues are sidelined immediately as and when grand narratives of Nation State and things like that are discussed anywhere. People like to talk about religious identity, wars and terrorism and cricket etc but when a question like why only woman are supposed to clean the shit of a child while her husband just looks indifferently casually or turns his eyes to TV etc. The answer probably would be, these are very small issues, but i guess the oppression against women begins from here, or from such small details like that. That is why there is a God of Small Things which we might need to engage. and see her/him in our respective shrines or worship houses.] But it is often otherwise. So, when Arundhati Roy turns her gaze from a Tribal issues, environmental issues, to Kashmir, to Binayak Singh issue to Tamil refuges to Taliban to womens issues , i see a deliberate provocation, People at the helm and insensitive lot amongst us need to be told loudly that something is terribly wrong within out social system which includes political, moral and environmental as well. Ms Roy has been speaking on the thought of this like a soldier on the front. There was report in TOI couple of days back, about Roy that she needs to cross check her info on Sri Lankan assault on LTTE. I had the similar feeling about the author of that article, The critics of Roy dont notice that she has not will be counted as as an efficient journalist, but a voice in solidarity with the people who are suffering, anywhere on the earth. with love inder salim - - On Wed, May 13, 2009 at 8:08 PM, Rahul Asthana wrote: > > The hallmark of Arundhati's "analysis" is try to force an equivalence of whatever is happening in Pakistan to that in India.It seems to be  some kind of a game for her, like crossword puzzle.So she has to ignore reason from time to time. > Secondly,she somehow develops cold feet in discussing the role of the Pakistani establishment in using terrorism as a matter of state policy.Probably she doesn't read newspapers.Her root cause analysis only involves India's occupation of Kashmir. > Thirdly,for her Taliban are only freedom fighters who were created with funding from the big,bad America.Pakistan's role in the creation of Taliban is overlooked again.Also overlooked is the various news items like this one(http://www.rawa.org/mazar6.htm),which expose the Islamic fascist nature of Taliban.Again,probably she doesn't read newspapers. > > Here is the transcript of her talk with BBC Urdu. > http://blog.outlookindia.com/default.aspx?ddm=10&pid=1758&eid=5 > > > --- On Wed, 5/13/09, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > >> From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Arundhati Roy in Karachi >> To: "Pawan Durani" >> Cc: "reader-list at sarai.net list" >> Date: Wednesday, May 13, 2009, 12:08 PM >> Dear All, >> >> The statement attributed to Ms. Roy comes from a reporters >> summary in >> the Dawn newspaper of her interactions at the Karachi >> Womens Action >> Forum meeting. While its exact contents do need to be >> verified, the >> fact that there is a synergy between the broader >> Hindutva >> 'Parivar' (Family) and sections of the armed forces in >> India (just as >> there is between Islamists and broad sections of the >> military >> estabishment in Pakistan, which the report does refer to) >> should not >> in itself be seen as surprising. >> >> Perhaps memories are short, but the 'Abhinav Bharat' >> episode and the >> Malegaon Blast case, in which a serving miiitary >> intelligence officer >> Col. S.P. Purohit is one of the accused (and whose >> involvement in the >> attack on the Samjhauta Train to Pakistan is also >> under >> invesitgation) is an indication of the fact that contact >> between >> sections of the armed forces and the Hindutva 'Parivar' is >> not >> exactly a figure of fancy. As of now, the murky realities >> of the >> Malegaon case suggests that we only know the tip of an >> iceberg. >> >> And finally, is there a problem in spelling a person's name >> as it >> should be spelled, or has Pawan Durani been somehow >> rendered >> incapable of such a simple task? Have we come to such a >> pass that >> along with everything else, this list will now also have to >> undertake >> the burden of conducting object lessons in orthography and >> spelling? >> >> regards, >> >> Shuddha >> >> >> >> >> On 13-May-09, at 11:27 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: >> >> > I am surprised ....."RSS has inflitrated the >> Indian >> > Army" ........What are the basis on which such a >> general statement >> > is made by Aran-Dhat-Tri-Ki-Roy ? >> > >> > Pawan >> > >> > On Wed, May 13, 2009 at 8:07 AM, Shuddhabrata >> Sengupta >> > >> wrote: >> > Dear All, >> > >> > The Delhi based writer Arundhati Roy has recently been >> in Karachi, >> > Pakistan at the invitation of civil society >> organizations and womens >> > rights groups. Here are two reports from Dawn, a >> Karachi based daily, >> > about meetings she attended (with an organization >> titled 'Womens >> > Action Forum') and interactions she had. I hope that >> they will be of >> > interest to people on the list. >> > >> > regards, >> > >> > Shuddha >> > ------------------------------ >> > 1. >> > >> > Arundhati Roy and the WAF >> > By Zubeida Mustafa >> > Wednesday, 13 May, 2009 >> > http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/ >> > pakistan/11-arundhati-roy-and-the-waf--02 >> > >> > ‘WOMEN to reclaim public spaces: a programme of >> defiance and >> > resistance.’ That is how the Women’s Action Forum >> defined the meeting >> > it held last Friday to mobilise public opinion against >> extremism. >> > >> > Although WAF’s concern to protect the space women >> have created in the >> > public mainstream has been on its agenda for some >> time, this goal has >> > acquired urgency in the wake of the events in Swat. >> The Nizam-i-Adl >> > Regulation in Malakand Division has brought people >> face to face with >> > the ugly reality of the Talibanisation phenomenon in >> the rural >> > backwaters as well as in modern urban centres. >> > >> > The Karachi meeting was well-attended by WAF’s >> standards. It is not >> > easy to mobilise women for any cause in this city of >> multiple >> > identities. The metropolis has a diversity of >> populations, cultures, >> > languages and economic interests posing a challenge to >> bring women >> > together on a single platform. Learning from its >> experience of the >> > lawyers’ movement that had succeeded in uniting the >> extreme right and >> > centrist political parties and the professionals on a >> single-point >> > agenda for two years, WAF also decided to make >> Talibanisation and >> > women the focal issue. >> > >> > That strategy paid off. Women had already been >> galvanised by the >> > video showing the flogging of a teenaged girl in Swat >> that activist >> > Samar Minallah courageously brought to the world >> media’s attention, >> > invoking in the process the wrath of the Taliban whose >> fatwa declared >> > her as wajibul qatl. The oppression of women is an >> issue that cuts >> > across classes to touch every female raw nerve. >> Whether it is the >> > smartly turned-out high-society woman or the working >> woman who slaves >> > all day long to feed an army of children and a >> drug-addict husband or >> > even the heavily veiled orthodox woman, each type, >> with few >> > exceptions, has expressed her horror at the flogging >> incident. >> > >> > Hence on this occasion WAF managed to bring a diverse >> crowd together >> > — the activists reaching out to the grassroots such >> as Amar Sindhu >> > from Sindh University Hyderabad, Parveen Rahman from >> the Orangi Pilot >> > Project and Sadiqa Salahuddin whose Indus Resource >> Centre runs >> > schools in the interior of Sindh, as well as the >> elites sitting side >> > by side with the three van-loads of women from Neelum >> Colony who >> > clean the homes of the rich and will be starting their >> adult literacy >> > classes from next week, courtesy Shabina’s Garage >> School. >> > >> > The variety of speakers focusing on the theme of >> women’s oppression >> > by the Taliban found a responsive audience. But the >> question that >> > made many ponder was: what next? Can this interest be >> sustained? If >> > they had not already started probing for answers, the >> thought- >> > provoking speech by Arundhati Roy, the renowned Indian >> writer and >> > activist, did the trick. Coming from New Delhi on a >> solidarity >> > mission to WAF’s meeting. Roy raised four issues: >> > >> > • What do we mean by the Taliban and what gave birth >> to them? >> > >> > • Define your own space and do not surrender it. >> > >> > • Don’t allow yourself to be forced into making >> choices of the ‘with >> > us or against us’ type. >> > >> > • Don’t be selective in your injustices. >> > >> > These should provide food for thought for those >> struggling against >> > oppression. Without being specific, Roy exhorted her >> audience to look >> > into the structures and systems that lead to a >> situation of such >> > extreme oppression, some of which is rooted in the >> class conflict. >> > She believes one has to take a ‘total view’ of the >> matter, which she >> > admitted she had come to Pakistan to understand. >> > >> > The fact is that we live in a largely grey area where >> the lines are >> > not sharply drawn. There is a lot of overlapping >> between issues >> > touching gender, class, ethnicity, culture, political >> power and >> > economic gains. It is this reality one has to >> recognise and see how >> > the contradictions can be addressed. The demand to >> take sides >> > unambiguously, expressed so vividly in the days >> following 9/11 by >> > George Bush as ‘You are with us or against us,’ >> can create a dilemma >> > for people when negotiating these grey areas. >> > >> > Roy’s advice to avoid being ‘with us or against >> us’ has implications >> > she didn’t elucidate. In times when action is needed >> and a position >> > has to be taken — even if verbally — inaction or >> neutrality >> > unwittingly props up the status quo. If the status quo >> has been >> > created by inimical forces ostensibly now fighting >> their self-created >> > Frankenstein, where does one go? >> > >> > The practical approach would be to prioritise >> strategies that can be >> > adapted to changing circumstances. And what should >> these be? Here Roy >> > has a point when she says that one cannot be selective >> in the >> > justices one espouses and the injustices one >> denounces. In this >> > context Pakistanis find themselves trapped between the >> devil and the >> > deep sea. Attempting to rectify a problem here and >> another there >> > really doesn’t help because our entire state >> structure is colonial, >> > as a booklet titled Making Pakistan a Tenable State >> points out. >> > >> > Produced by 17 intellectuals, with Dr Mubashir Hasan >> as the driving >> > force, the book describes the state structure as being >> ‘based on the >> > concentration of political and administrative power in >> the steel >> > frame of the civil services under the protection of >> the armed forces. >> > The structure could be defined as >> feudal-military-bureaucratic.’ >> > >> > The problem is systemic. In a state ruled by ‘a >> government of the >> > elites, by the elites, for the elites’ it is >> inevitable that it is >> > authoritarian and exploitative. Change can come when >> there is >> > mobilisation of the people for change. When WAF >> mobilises women to >> > fight against injustices it prepares them to also >> fight for change. >> > The need is to empower them and instill confidence in >> them. >> > >> > Two women I have written about who are fighting for >> change come from >> > the poorest of the poor and theirs is not a feminist >> agenda. They are >> > fighting to have a roof above their heads. One is the >> wife of Walidad >> > from Muhammad Essa Khaskheli who came all the way to >> Karachi in the >> > heat of summer to save her goth from being snapped up >> by a feudal in >> > the neighbourhood. >> > >> > The other is Parveen whose one-room ‘mansion’ in a >> katchi abadi of >> > Clifton is now under threat of demolition. She is >> resisting the >> > exploitative system that cannot provide shelter to the >> poor. >> > Initially she hesitated — was it ‘proper’ for a >> woman to protest she >> > had asked me. When encouraged she decided it was. >> These are women on >> > the way to empowerment and that is WAF’s agenda. >> > >> >  2. >> > >> > ‘I’m here to understand what you mean by >> Taliban’ >> > by Salman Siddiqui >> > Friday, 08 May, 2009 >> > http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/ >> > pakistan/arundhati-roy-sal-02 >> > >> > Is there a threat of Talibanisation engulfing the >> entire region? >> > >> > I think it has already engulfed our region. I think >> there’s a need >> > for a very clear thinking (on this issue of >> Talibanisation). In >> > India, there are two kinds of terrorism: one is >> Islamic terrorism and >> > the other Maoist terrorism. But this term terrorism, >> we must ask, >> > what do they mean by it. >> > >> > In Pakistan, I’m here to understand what they mean >> by this term. When >> > we say we must fight the Taliban or must defeat them, >> what does it >> > mean? I’m here to understand what you mean when you >> say Taliban. Do >> > you mean a militant? Do you mean an ideology? Exactly >> what is it that >> > is being fought? That needs to be clarified. >> > >> > I think both needs to be fought. But if it’s an >> ideology it has to be >> > fought differently, while if it’s a person with a >> gun then it has to >> > be fought differently. We know from the history of the >> war on terror >> > that a military strategy is only making matters worse >> all over the >> > world. The war on terror has made the world a more >> dangerous place. >> > In India, they have been fighting insurgencies >> military since 1947 >> > and it has become a more dangerous place. >> > >> > Swat and the Taliban boy >> > >> > It is very important for me to understand what exactly >> is going in >> > Swat. How did it start? A Taliban boy asked me why >> women can’t be >> > like plastic bags and banned. The point is that the >> plastic bag was >> > made in a factory but so was the boy. He was made in a >> factory that >> > is producing this kind of mind(set). (The question is) >> who owns that >> > factory, who funds it? Unless we deal with that >> factory, dealing with >> > the boy doesn’t help us. >> > >> > Water is the main issue >> > >> > One danger in Pakistan is that we talk about the >> threat of Taliban so >> > much that other important issues lose focus. In my >> view, the problem >> > of water in the world will become the most important >> problem.  I >> > think big dams are economically unviable, >> environmentally >> > unsustainable and politically undemocratic. They are a >> way of taking >> > away a river from the poor and giving it to the rich. >> Like in India, >> > there’s an issue of SEZs (Special Economic Zones), >> whereby the land >> > of the people are given to corporations. But the >> bigger problem is >> > that there are making dams and giving water to the >> industries. This >> > way the people who live in villages by the streams and >> rivers have no >> > water for themselves. So building dams is one of the >> most >> > ecologically destructive things that you can do. >> > >> > Fight over Siachen glacier >> > >> > There are thousands of Pakistani and Indian soldiers >> deployed on the >> > Siachen glacier. Both of our countries are spending >> billions of >> > dollars on high altitude warfare and weapons. The >> whole of the >> > Siachen glacier is sort of an icy monument to human >> folly. Each day >> > it is being filled with ice axes, old boots, tents and >> so on. >> > Meanwhile, that battlefield is melting. Siachen >> glacier is about half >> > its size now. It’s not melting because the Indian >> and Pakistani >> > soldiers are on it. But it’s because people >> somewhere on the other >> > side of the world are leading a good life….in >> countries that call >> > themselves democracies that believe in human rights >> and free speech. >> > Their economies depend on selling weapons to both of >> us. Now, when >> > that glacier melts, there will be floods first, then >> there will be a >> > drought and then we’ll have even more reasons to >> fight. We’ll buy >> > more weapons from those democracies and in this way >> human beings will >> > prove themselves to be the stupidest animals on >> earth. >> > >> > Money and the Indian elections >> > >> > Whatever system of government you have, whether it is >> a military >> > dictatorship or a democracy, and you have that for a >> long time, >> > eventually big money manages to subvert it. That has >> begun to happen >> > even in a democracy (like India). For example, >> political parties need >> > a lot of publicity, but the media is also run by >> corporate money. If >> > you look at the big political parties like the >> Congress and the BJP, >> > you see how much money is being put out just in their >> advertising >> > budgets. Now where does all that come from? >> > >> > RSS and the Indian establishment >> > >> > The RSS has infiltrated everything to a great extent. >> In India, we >> > have 120-150 million Muslims and it’s considered a >> minority…It’s >> > impossible to not belong to a minority of some sort in >> India. Caste >> > or ethnicity or religion or whatever, in some way >> everyone belongs to >> > a minority. The fights that many of us are waging >> against the RSS and >> > against the BJP are to say that we live in a society >> which >> > accommodates everybody. Everybody doesn’t have to >> love everybody, but >> > everybody has to be accommodated.  The RSS has >> infiltrated the >> > (Indian) army as much as various kinds of Wahabism or >> other kinds of >> > religious ideology have infiltrated the ISI or the >> armed forces in >> > Pakistan. They are human beings like everyone else and >> they too get >> > influenced. >> > >> > Indian media and sensationalizing of news coming out >> from Pakistan >> > >> > I think the media in both countries play this game. >> Whenever >> > something happens here, they hype it up there, while >> when something >> > happens there, they hype the news here. We say that we >> live in times >> > of an information revolution and free press, but even >> then nobody >> > gets to know the complete picture… >> > >> > The Pakistani media is a little different from the >> Indian media. They >> > stand on a slightly different foundation. But both >> share the problem >> > of a lack of accountability…The trouble in India is >> that 90 per cent >> > of their revenue comes from the corporate >> sector…there’s increasing >> > privatization and corporatization of governance, >> education, health, >> > infrastructure and water management. So in India you >> see an open >> > criticism of governance, but very rarely criticism of >> corporations. >> > It’s a structural problem. It’s not about good >> people or bad people. >> > It’s just that you can’t expect a company to work >> against itself. >> > This is a very serious issue which needs to be sorted >> out. >> > >> > Is the Indian army a sacred cow? >> > >> > The Indian army is quite a sacred cow especially on TV >> and Bollywood. >> > But at the same time if you talk to the people in the >> Indian army, >> > they say that they feel that the media is very >> critical of them. I >> > don’t share that view. I think it is a sacred cow. >> People are willing >> > to give them a lot of leeway. >> > >> > Women and their fight for justice >> > >> > When women fight for justice, we must fight for every >> kind of justice… >> > We must fight for justice for men and justice for >> children. Because >> > if you fight for one kind of justice and you tolerate >> another, then >> > it’s a pretty hollow fight. You may not be able to >> fight every >> > battle, but you should be able to put yourself on the >> line and say I >> > believe this. >> > >> > >> > >> > Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> > The Sarai Programme at CSDS >> > Raqs Media Collective >> > shuddha at sarai.net >> > www.sarai.net >> > www.raqsmediacollective.net >> > >> > >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the >> city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >> with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: >> > >> >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >> Raqs Media Collective >> shuddha at sarai.net >> www.sarai.net >> www.raqsmediacollective.net >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the >> city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >> with subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From pawan.durani at gmail.com Thu May 14 00:07:44 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 00:07:44 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Election Forecast Message-ID: <6b79f1a70905131137o628bffb4mbdaca14a4ae42ee3@mail.gmail.com> LK Advani to be likely PM . JJ & Maya Ji likely to support NDA Best part........Leftist would be cut short of their last achievement by further 40% approx.......Good riddance....Jokers of Teesra do not know where Teesra exists............... Welcome New PM .......Welcome Advani Ji From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Thu May 14 00:23:32 2009 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 00:23:32 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Election Forecast In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70905131137o628bffb4mbdaca14a4ae42ee3@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70905131137o628bffb4mbdaca14a4ae42ee3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690905131153s1c6b508dn7040e97840e54a59@mail.gmail.com> Lalu and Paswan to loose as per reports. Best would be if BJD (Naveen babu) and TDP (Chandra babu) both finally again in a U-turn join NDA. On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 12:07 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > LK Advani to be likely PM . > > JJ & Maya Ji likely to support NDA > > Best part........Leftist would be cut short of their last achievement by > further 40% approx.......Good riddance....Jokers of Teesra do not know > where > Teesra exists............... > > Welcome New PM .......Welcome Advani Ji > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From delhi.yunus at gmail.com Thu May 14 00:45:09 2009 From: delhi.yunus at gmail.com (Syed Yunus) Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 00:45:09 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The NGO-Industrial Complex (Builders, Develpers and now Green) Message-ID: Thanks Kshmendra for sharing this thought provoking paper. I agree that the CSR & NGO collaboration are creating hell lot of changes in the way voluntary organizations used to work. Recognizing the potential of 'awareness' the corporates want to exploit the 'social sphere' for image building as they are using the green terminology to clean their marks of pollution or to get rebate. If we look at the construction industry per say, it hampers the biodiversity by expanding the web of concrete. ground water depletion is the first indicator which might be noticed by those who have recently deepen their bore wells. however during last three decades the industry has successfully exploited various terms i.e. builders, developers, garden and now green to boost its image in the social sphere. And to attract socially 'aware' consumers. regards Yunus On 5/13/09, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > "The NGO-Industrial Complex (Another non-Communist manifesto?)" > by RA > > A new spectre is haunting the world. Picking up where the colonial > projects left off, it aims to complete their transnational projects and > crystallise the dominant world order once and for all. It can be seen as the > newest stage and mutation of both capitalism and colonialism, with aid > workers as the new missionaries. Yet this avatar breaks with previous > projects in that it commodifies not just goods or people, but emotion > itself. It equally seeks to neuter dissent and reproduce itself not through > the politicised discrimination and particularization of colonialism, but > instead, through a generalized depoliticisation. And although it may > operate with a similarly well intentioned ‘help us help them’ ethos, its > realized effects are slightly less admirable. This is the Non Governmental > Organisation Industrial complex. > > Yet what does it mean to liken NGOs – generally viewed as altruistic > non-profit vehicles for social change – to the prison and military > industrial complexes? To begin with, the label ‘industrial complex’ can be > defined as a system of relations between the State and certain institutions > and organizations in a particular industry - in this case foundations, > intergovernmentals and nonprofits - often with an associated ulterior agenda > or motive. It may be noted that NGOs differ from the military and prison > industries in that they are external to, and thus ostensibly independent > from the state. It can however be argued that the tax-exempt status which > these philanthropic and charitable organizations enjoy vastly changes their > relationship with the State. This is to say, that while taxes may pit > corporations in opposition to the State, the NGOs’ exemption results in them > functioning as a part, and the international arm of said State. > > And indeed, globalizing forces have today redrawn us into a world that is > increasingly interdependent and borderless, at least on paper. It is in this > international aspect where Rostow’s Five Stages of Growth theory, which > takes the nation state as the basic unit of economic analysis, falls > short. Past his fifth stage of mass consumption, he poses the question of > where a nation, having attained technological maturity and having “at its > command a modernized and differentiated industrial machine”. Options range > from the expansion of the welfare state to the increasing of “the nation’s > stature and power on the world scene” to “the creation of new inner, human > frontiers in substitution for the imperatives of scarcity” (1971:16). > > It may then be possible to posit a sixth stage of growth to add on to > Rostow’s original five: that of globalisation and transnationalism. This > stage too possesses an “inner logic and continuity … (and) and analytic bone > structure, rooted in a dynamic theory of production” (1971:13-14). It is > well characterized by the body of philanthropic NGO organizations, which > achieve a tripartite synthesis of Rostow’s posited options > above. Structured not by an individual state, but instead the world > government, it can be viewed as an expansion of the welfare state on a > global scale. The body’s collective aim is thus stated as the alleviation of > poverty and human suffering through government initiatives that transcend > national borders. It can however be argued that this philanthropic mission > belies an underlying, perhaps more insidious aim: the global promotion of > the nation with regards to both stature and power. > > The pattern of Buddenbrooks dynamics that Rostow cites (1971:11) is also > relevant in considering the creation of the aforementioned ‘creation of new > inner, human frontiers in substitution for the imperatives of > scarcity’. Denizens of a society in this proposed sixth stage are > characterized by their relatively higher levels of economic comfort and > standard of living, replete with all the accoutrements of hypercapitalism. > This affluence leads them to behave “as if, having been born into a system > that provided economic security and high mass-consumption, they placed a > lower valuation on acquiring increments of real income in the conventional > form”. Included among these ‘new’ aspirations is the drive for charity and > philanthropic social change, as facilitated and enabled through the > collective body of NGOs. In previous stages of economic growth, this > commitment to philanthropy has tended to be the province of only the rich > elite in any > given society. This division does not change in this sixth stage, except > to be mapped onto the global scale of the ‘world society’. So it is that > the ‘richer’ countries do the developing, while those seen as being less > economically advantaged in the hegemonic globalisation paradigm are the > countries that are being ‘developed’. > > At this conjecture it is important to quickly emphasise that there should > be no inevitability or universality ascribed to these stages. Rather, a > conscious effort at delinking and self-extricating from this process may > prove far more effective for those countries targeted through this > NGO-industrial complex. Even in the countries that are doing the > ‘developing’, it is worth noting how this complex reproduces itself in its > ‘home’ societies. This is an age where corporations too function as > consumers, and are often subject to the same mores as their human > counterparts. It thus becomes no longer adequate for these firms to simply > function by the ‘imperatives of scarcity’ or the turning of > profits. Rather, these entities are almost expected to display a > conscience, with a ‘green’ environmentally commitment, and careful > investments. The twin pillars of ‘Corporate Social Responsibility’ and > ‘Socially Responsible Investing’, > along with the phenomenon of ethical consumerism, thus force corporations > to accumulate an entirely new kind of brand-related capital. This new maxim > answers not directly to profit, but instead to the maximization of PR. > > While CSR and SRI do certainly have a plethora of positive effects, they do > serve to both fuel and reinforce the NGO-industrial complex. Perhaps not > unlike the electoral political system, it self-sustains by presenting itself > as the only viable and effective avenue for a certain kind of social > change. Individuals are equally affected by this construction, which can be > said to appropriate, commodify and redistribute these philanthropic > aspirations. This can equally be said to result in a simultaneous statizing > and depoliticizing of local social justice movements, where activist > energies are redirected into NGO careerism, and certain institutionalized > modes of organizing which have very different outcomes to those approached > with a mass community-rooted ideology. Especially fascinating is its > appropriation not only of emotion, but also of grassroots-based strategies > and aesthetics. This is not limited to just the NGO complex, but goes on to > be > picked up and institutionalized by other State institutions, as clearly > evidenced by the Obama Campaign’s recent fundraising and mobilizing tactics. > > > So it is that even emotion – in the form of liberal guilt – gets modulated > and monitored, almost replete with a barcode and price tag attached. If, > following Bataille (1949), a society can be characterized not by what it > produces so much as by that which it wastes, then this commodification of > emotion must surely represent the most efficient form of capitalism > yet. Like the development project , it is “efficient in its inefficiency” > (Ferguson 1994:268), managing to in a way commodify the uncommodifiable, and > integrate into discourse that which previously resisted > definitions. Thinking of the commodification of emotion in terms of excess > is especially interesting in that it retains the idea of philanthropy as a > luxury, albeit one with catastrophic potentials. > > In terms of Amin’s four-sector economic model (1974), a ‘developed’ society > can be defined in terms of its production of capital goods and mass > consumption, while its ‘less developed’ counterpart largely produces > exports, and paradoxically, luxury goods. It is thus possible to see LDCs > like Ferguson’s example of Lesotho as exporting labour, and producing > philanthropy and the absolution of liberal guilt. A ‘developed’ country on > the other hand would mass consume said philanthropism, and direct its > production towards capital investments in the LDCs. Yet just how does this > collective body of NGOs function? > > To return to the initial anthropomorphisation as spectre, the body can be > seen as held together by a skeleton of intergovernmental organizations like > the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund. This is further > fleshed out with a constellation of NGOs and imbued with a common > development ideology. In analyzing the development project, Ferguson has > volunteered that “one can only aim to be, in Nietzsche’s terms, a good > physiologist”. And indeed, it could be interesting to further map this > project medically – with its addressing of symptoms not causes, reliance on > capital injections, the one-cure-fits-all approach – and perhaps even > consider foundations in terms of phallic endowment. Yet even as these > intergovernmentals provide an economic framework for the NGOs, they delimit > these smaller organizations into a specific ideological project, with its > own momentum. It is then both unsurprising, if a little sinister, that the > IMF > acknowledges that “the Bank and the IMF are twin intergovernmental pillars > supporting the structure of the world’s economic and financial order” (IMF > [i]). > > Exactly what is this economic and financial order? It may be useful to > refer to George Orwell’s famous statement of "he who controls the present, > controls the past. He who controls the past, controls the future" > (1949). Yet who controls the present now? It is here tempting to > immediately vilify an amorphous “System” that somehow represents the world > economic elite. However, it is certainly possible to point to the “G8” > group of nations to answer the question of who controls the > intergovernmentals in question. It is perhaps best seen in the old boys’ > club-type agreement in which the United States and Europe pick the President > and Managing Director of the World Bank and IMF, respectively. And although > these picks are subject to approval from other member states, both > institutions’ weighted systems of voting ensure that the interests of its > largest shareholders are not only maintained but also furthered. In the > World Bank, for > example, each the five members holding the largest number of shares – > currently Germany, France, the United States, United Kingdom and Japan – > have the privilege of appointing an Executive Director each. The remaining > (currently 19) Executive Directors are meanwhile rather tellingly elected by > the other 166 nations currently in the World Bank. > > Development discourse thus works to reimagine a society it in order > maintain its specific assigned place in the world’s economic and financial > order. Following Ferguson, it can be seen as an institutionalised discourse > generated by certain development intergovernmentals that simultaneously > constructs an entire country “as a particular kind of object of knowledge, > and creates a structure of knowledge around the object. Interventions are > then organized on the basis of this structure of knowledge, which, while > failing” on their own terms, nonetheless have regular effects” (1994: xiv). > Despite Amin’s protestations that “a society cannot be reduced to a mode of > production” (1972:605), the discourse does just that. The society in > question is slotted into a hierarchy of ‘development’, whether as a > ‘less-developed’ country, or a card carrying member of the Third and Fourth > worlds. The civilizing mission is thus reincarnated in a > rather more innocuous guise, replete with the sentiment of an economic > ‘noblesse oblige’. > > The approach of the development discourse is fourfold and works to > reimagine the target society by assigning four characteristics. As defined > by Ferguson, these are as being ‘aboriginal’ and agriculture based, with a > single national economy, and adherent to the principle of governmentality. > More important than the perhaps inevitable degree of failure for him are the > instrumental side effects, especially the increase in and reinforcement of > bureaucratic state power, and the depoliticizing effects, which function by > reimagining social realities that may be structural or political as purely > technical and apolitical. > > Ferguson goes on to argue that development functions by framing the stage > for, and launching interventions that in reality have no effect (and > possibly even intention) of eradicating poverty. Not unlike the recent usage > of ‘weapons of mass destruction’ to launch a war in Iraq, poverty thus > serves not as an end goal, but instead a point of entry. As a result, the > development project proves perversely ‘successful’ in its failures and in > the resulting reproduction of a certain mode of power relations, both within > the target state and on a global scale. Like the reinvented 19th-century > Islam, it too functions as a “powerful means of integrating the new > periphery and subordinating it to the design of the centre” (Amin 1972:517). > > In a sense this development ideology can even be compared to an overly > technicalised colour-by-numbers approach to photography, involving a limited > amount of preselected filters. The ‘developing solution’ is applied in the > dark, before the photo is essentially hung out to dry while the technician > waits for the results. Yet like negatives on a film strip, the developer > begins with choosing exactly which scenes (and scenarios) are to be > developed, and comes armed with a fair understanding of how the developed > product will turn out. This analogy is however admittedly a very crude > oversimplification. It must also be acknowledged that even though they > function within the development machine, and may be carried by its momentum, > the majority of individuals and firms operating –albeit as cogs- within it > come to the project with the best of intentions. > > Further research look the labour dynamics within these smaller NGOs, many > of whom underpay, and perhaps even exploit their employees and > volunteers. It would also be interesting to compare the modes and effects > of development discourse – dubbed as ‘devspeak’ and ‘devthink’ – to the > Orwellian ‘Newspeak’. And although entirely unaddressed here, it would also > be fascinating to examine the alternatives to participation in the current > hegemonic globalisation-through-development discourse, whether through > Amin’s delinking, some form of protectionism, or otherwise. To paraphrase an > anti-globalisation slogan, now more than ever, another world is possible, > and another Africa is necessary. > > > > > > WORKS CITED: > > Amin, Samir – Underdevelopment and Democracy in Black Africa: Origins and > Contemporary Forms, Journal of Modern African Studies 10 – (1972 > Amin, Samir - Accumulation and Development: A Theoretical Model, Review of > African Political Economy Vol.1, No.1, (1974) > Bataille, Georges - The Accursed Share (1949) > Ferguson, Jim – The Anti-Politics Machine (1994) > Orwell, George – 1984 (1949) > Rostow, W.W. – Stages of Growth (1971) > > > IMF [i] The IMF and the World Bank: How do they differ? > http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/exrp/differ/differ.htm > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- Change is the only constant in life ! From rahul_capri at yahoo.com Thu May 14 02:03:23 2009 From: rahul_capri at yahoo.com (Rahul Asthana) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 13:33:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Arundhati Roy in Karachi Message-ID: <490356.33312.qm@web53612.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Shuddha, I think you were replying to my post. "this does not amount to an equivalence of India and Pakistan." I did not claim she said that so that's a straw man.You can read my post again.Her(and yours) arguments on the specific points where she tries to engineer an equivalence are disingenuous.Read Sonia Jabbars post. "two things do not have to be identical for one to maintain a critical perspective towards both." Okay,so whats your point?Shouldn't you address this statement to Ms Roy that she does not need to create wild equivalences like ""RSS has inflitrated the Indian Army"? "As for the Taliban, Roy is explicitly critical (in this report) of the way it treats women, and she states (again) explicitly that the Taliban is a form of terror that needs to be fought." Did you read it carefully? First she employs the device of meeting a Taliban "boy" as against a Taliban "man".This neat little device paves the way for her to write the following. "He was made in a factory that is producing this kind of mind(set). (The question is) who owns that factory, who funds it? Unless we deal with that factory, dealing with the boy doesn’t help us." After all he is a boy.If he was a man probably he could have been held responsible for his actions.Please read her interview to BBC urdu where she says that the Taliban are fighting an occupation using very medieval tools.That was the whole purport of this point in my earlier post.According to her,the Taliban,originally,were freedom fighters but a factory made them misogynists,extremists etc.I tried to point out by sourcing an article that the Taliban were slaughtering ethnic minorities of Afghanistan besides fighting the occupation and that had nothing to do with the financiers sitting in U.S .Now do you get my point? "Please read the text again if this is not clear to you on first reading." Lol!Ok Einstein,as you say! Also why do you think she does not highlight the involvement of Pakistan state in creating the Taliban?Why does she not raise the issue of the state sponsored terrorism by the Pakistan state when she does her root cause analysis on Kashmir?It would be great if you could comment on that. Thanks Rahul Pawan, > You are being specious in your arguments here. In the report, Roy is > reported as discussiing some specific points of equivalence - of the way in > which the media behaves in both countries, of the influence of far right > politics in the making of military and security agendas, this does not > amount to an equivalence of India and Pakistan. In any case, the two > entitities, as states, are not arithmetical sums that add up to identitites, > two things do not have to be identical for one to maintain a critical > perspective towards both. > > As for the Taliban, Roy is explicitly critical (in this report) of the way > it treats women, and she states (again) explicitly that the Taliban is a > form of terror that needs to be fought. Please read the text again if this > is not clear to you on first reading. > > She merely asks us to try and undertake a more sopisticated understanding > of the phonomenon (like Ashis Nandy in the other text that I had forwarded > earlier this morning). In order to combat it, it needs to be understood. And > the factors that give rise to phenomena like the Taliban, which are more > than simply, the instrumentalities of realpolitik and the actions of states, > need to be accounted for. > > Shuddha --- On Wed, 5/13/09, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Arundhati Roy in Karachi > To: "Pawan Durani" > Cc: "reader-list at sarai.net list" > Date: Wednesday, May 13, 2009, 12:08 PM > Dear All, > > The statement attributed to Ms. Roy comes from a reporters > summary in  > the Dawn newspaper of her interactions at the Karachi > Womens Action  > Forum meeting. While its exact contents do need to be > verified, the  > fact that there is a synergy between the broader > Hindutva  > 'Parivar' (Family) and sections of the armed forces in > India (just as  > there is between Islamists and broad sections of the > military  > estabishment in Pakistan, which the report does refer to) > should not  > in itself be seen as surprising. > > Perhaps memories are short, but the 'Abhinav Bharat' > episode and the  > Malegaon Blast case, in which a serving miiitary > intelligence officer  > Col. S.P. Purohit is one of the accused (and whose > involvement in the  > attack on the Samjhauta Train to Pakistan is also > under  > invesitgation) is an indication of the fact that contact > between  > sections of the armed forces and the Hindutva 'Parivar' is > not  > exactly a figure of fancy. As of now, the murky realities > of the  > Malegaon case suggests that we only know the tip of an > iceberg. > > And finally, is there a problem in spelling a person's name > as it  > should be spelled, or has Pawan Durani been somehow > rendered  > incapable of such a simple task? Have we come to such a > pass that  > along with everything else, this list will now also have to > undertake  > the burden of conducting object lessons in orthography and > spelling? > > regards, > > Shuddha > > > > > On 13-May-09, at 11:27 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > I am surprised ....."RSS has inflitrated the > Indian  > > Army" ........What are the basis on which such a > general statement  > > is made by Aran-Dhat-Tri-Ki-Roy ? > > > > Pawan > > > > On Wed, May 13, 2009 at 8:07 AM, Shuddhabrata > Sengupta  > > > wrote: > > Dear All, > > > > The Delhi based writer Arundhati Roy has recently been > in Karachi, > > Pakistan at the invitation of civil society > organizations and womens > > rights groups. Here are two reports from Dawn, a > Karachi based daily, > > about meetings she attended (with an organization > titled 'Womens > > Action Forum') and interactions she had. I hope that > they will be of > > interest to people on the list. > > > > regards, > > > > Shuddha > > ------------------------------ > > 1. > > > > Arundhati Roy and the WAF > > By Zubeida Mustafa > > Wednesday, 13 May, 2009 > > http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/ > > pakistan/11-arundhati-roy-and-the-waf--02 > > > > ‘WOMEN to reclaim public spaces: a programme of > defiance and > > resistance.’ That is how the Women’s Action Forum > defined the meeting > > it held last Friday to mobilise public opinion against > extremism. > > > > Although WAF’s concern to protect the space women > have created in the > > public mainstream has been on its agenda for some > time, this goal has > > acquired urgency in the wake of the events in Swat. > The Nizam-i-Adl > > Regulation in Malakand Division has brought people > face to face with > > the ugly reality of the Talibanisation phenomenon in > the rural > > backwaters as well as in modern urban centres. > > > > The Karachi meeting was well-attended by WAF’s > standards. It is not > > easy to mobilise women for any cause in this city of > multiple > > identities. The metropolis has a diversity of > populations, cultures, > > languages and economic interests posing a challenge to > bring women > > together on a single platform. Learning from its > experience of the > > lawyers’ movement that had succeeded in uniting the > extreme right and > > centrist political parties and the professionals on a > single-point > > agenda for two years, WAF also decided to make > Talibanisation and > > women the focal issue. > > > > That strategy paid off. Women had already been > galvanised by the > > video showing the flogging of a teenaged girl in Swat > that activist > > Samar Minallah courageously brought to the world > media’s attention, > > invoking in the process the wrath of the Taliban whose > fatwa declared > > her as wajibul qatl. The oppression of women is an > issue that cuts > > across classes to touch every female raw nerve. > Whether it is the > > smartly turned-out high-society woman or the working > woman who slaves > > all day long to feed an army of children and a > drug-addict husband or > > even the heavily veiled orthodox woman, each type, > with few > > exceptions, has expressed her horror at the flogging > incident. > > > > Hence on this occasion WAF managed to bring a diverse > crowd together > > — the activists reaching out to the grassroots such > as Amar Sindhu > > from Sindh University Hyderabad, Parveen Rahman from > the Orangi Pilot > > Project and Sadiqa Salahuddin whose Indus Resource > Centre runs > > schools in the interior of Sindh, as well as the > elites sitting side > > by side with the three van-loads of women from Neelum > Colony who > > clean the homes of the rich and will be starting their > adult literacy > > classes from next week, courtesy Shabina’s Garage > School. > > > > The variety of speakers focusing on the theme of > women’s oppression > > by the Taliban found a responsive audience. But the > question that > > made many ponder was: what next? Can this interest be > sustained? If > > they had not already started probing for answers, the > thought- > > provoking speech by Arundhati Roy, the renowned Indian > writer and > > activist, did the trick. Coming from New Delhi on a > solidarity > > mission to WAF’s meeting. Roy raised four issues: > > > > • What do we mean by the Taliban and what gave birth > to them? > > > > • Define your own space and do not surrender it. > > > > • Don’t allow yourself to be forced into making > choices of the ‘with > > us or against us’ type. > > > > • Don’t be selective in your injustices. > > > > These should provide food for thought for those > struggling against > > oppression. Without being specific, Roy exhorted her > audience to look > > into the structures and systems that lead to a > situation of such > > extreme oppression, some of which is rooted in the > class conflict. > > She believes one has to take a ‘total view’ of the > matter, which she > > admitted she had come to Pakistan to understand. > > > > The fact is that we live in a largely grey area where > the lines are > > not sharply drawn. There is a lot of overlapping > between issues > > touching gender, class, ethnicity, culture, political > power and > > economic gains. It is this reality one has to > recognise and see how > > the contradictions can be addressed. The demand to > take sides > > unambiguously, expressed so vividly in the days > following 9/11 by > > George Bush as ‘You are with us or against us,’ > can create a dilemma > > for people when negotiating these grey areas. > > > > Roy’s advice to avoid being ‘with us or against > us’ has implications > > she didn’t elucidate. In times when action is needed > and a position > > has to be taken — even if verbally — inaction or > neutrality > > unwittingly props up the status quo. If the status quo > has been > > created by inimical forces ostensibly now fighting > their self-created > > Frankenstein, where does one go? > > > > The practical approach would be to prioritise > strategies that can be > > adapted to changing circumstances. And what should > these be? Here Roy > > has a point when she says that one cannot be selective > in the > > justices one espouses and the injustices one > denounces. In this > > context Pakistanis find themselves trapped between the > devil and the > > deep sea. Attempting to rectify a problem here and > another there > > really doesn’t help because our entire state > structure is colonial, > > as a booklet titled Making Pakistan a Tenable State > points out. > > > > Produced by 17 intellectuals, with Dr Mubashir Hasan > as the driving > > force, the book describes the state structure as being > ‘based on the > > concentration of political and administrative power in > the steel > > frame of the civil services under the protection of > the armed forces. > > The structure could be defined as > feudal-military-bureaucratic.’ > > > > The problem is systemic. In a state ruled by ‘a > government of the > > elites, by the elites, for the elites’ it is > inevitable that it is > > authoritarian and exploitative. Change can come when > there is > > mobilisation of the people for change. When WAF > mobilises women to > > fight against injustices it prepares them to also > fight for change. > > The need is to empower them and instill confidence in > them. > > > > Two women I have written about who are fighting for > change come from > > the poorest of the poor and theirs is not a feminist > agenda. They are > > fighting to have a roof above their heads. One is the > wife of Walidad > > from Muhammad Essa Khaskheli who came all the way to > Karachi in the > > heat of summer to save her goth from being snapped up > by a feudal in > > the neighbourhood. > > > > The other is Parveen whose one-room ‘mansion’ in a > katchi abadi of > > Clifton is now under threat of demolition. She is > resisting the > > exploitative system that cannot provide shelter to the > poor. > > Initially she hesitated — was it ‘proper’ for a > woman to protest she > > had asked me. When encouraged she decided it was. > These are women on > > the way to empowerment and that is WAF’s agenda. > > > >  2. > > > > ‘I’m here to understand what you mean by > Taliban’ > > by Salman Siddiqui > > Friday, 08 May, 2009 > > http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/ > > pakistan/arundhati-roy-sal-02 > > > > Is there a threat of Talibanisation engulfing the > entire region? > > > > I think it has already engulfed our region. I think > there’s a need > > for a very clear thinking (on this issue of > Talibanisation). In > > India, there are two kinds of terrorism: one is > Islamic terrorism and > > the other Maoist terrorism. But this term terrorism, > we must ask, > > what do they mean by it. > > > > In Pakistan, I’m here to understand what they mean > by this term. When > > we say we must fight the Taliban or must defeat them, > what does it > > mean? I’m here to understand what you mean when you > say Taliban. Do > > you mean a militant? Do you mean an ideology? Exactly > what is it that > > is being fought? That needs to be clarified. > > > > I think both needs to be fought. But if it’s an > ideology it has to be > > fought differently, while if it’s a person with a > gun then it has to > > be fought differently. We know from the history of the > war on terror > > that a military strategy is only making matters worse > all over the > > world. The war on terror has made the world a more > dangerous place. > > In India, they have been fighting insurgencies > military since 1947 > > and it has become a more dangerous place. > > > > Swat and the Taliban boy > > > > It is very important for me to understand what exactly > is going in > > Swat. How did it start? A Taliban boy asked me why > women can’t be > > like plastic bags and banned. The point is that the > plastic bag was > > made in a factory but so was the boy. He was made in a > factory that > > is producing this kind of mind(set). (The question is) > who owns that > > factory, who funds it? Unless we deal with that > factory, dealing with > > the boy doesn’t help us. > > > > Water is the main issue > > > > One danger in Pakistan is that we talk about the > threat of Taliban so > > much that other important issues lose focus. In my > view, the problem > > of water in the world will become the most important > problem.  I > > think big dams are economically unviable, > environmentally > > unsustainable and politically undemocratic. They are a > way of taking > > away a river from the poor and giving it to the rich. > Like in India, > > there’s an issue of SEZs (Special Economic Zones), > whereby the land > > of the people are given to corporations. But the > bigger problem is > > that there are making dams and giving water to the > industries. This > > way the people who live in villages by the streams and > rivers have no > > water for themselves. So building dams is one of the > most > > ecologically destructive things that you can do. > > > > Fight over Siachen glacier > > > > There are thousands of Pakistani and Indian soldiers > deployed on the > > Siachen glacier. Both of our countries are spending > billions of > > dollars on high altitude warfare and weapons. The > whole of the > > Siachen glacier is sort of an icy monument to human > folly. Each day > > it is being filled with ice axes, old boots, tents and > so on. > > Meanwhile, that battlefield is melting. Siachen > glacier is about half > > its size now. It’s not melting because the Indian > and Pakistani > > soldiers are on it. But it’s because people > somewhere on the other > > side of the world are leading a good life….in > countries that call > > themselves democracies that believe in human rights > and free speech. > > Their economies depend on selling weapons to both of > us. Now, when > > that glacier melts, there will be floods first, then > there will be a > > drought and then we’ll have even more reasons to > fight. We’ll buy > > more weapons from those democracies and in this way > human beings will > > prove themselves to be the stupidest animals on > earth. > > > > Money and the Indian elections > > > > Whatever system of government you have, whether it is > a military > > dictatorship or a democracy, and you have that for a > long time, > > eventually big money manages to subvert it. That has > begun to happen > > even in a democracy (like India). For example, > political parties need > > a lot of publicity, but the media is also run by > corporate money. If > > you look at the big political parties like the > Congress and the BJP, > > you see how much money is being put out just in their > advertising > > budgets. Now where does all that come from? > > > > RSS and the Indian establishment > > > > The RSS has infiltrated everything to a great extent. > In India, we > > have 120-150 million Muslims and it’s considered a > minority…It’s > > impossible to not belong to a minority of some sort in > India. Caste > > or ethnicity or religion or whatever, in some way > everyone belongs to > > a minority. The fights that many of us are waging > against the RSS and > > against the BJP are to say that we live in a society > which > > accommodates everybody. Everybody doesn’t have to > love everybody, but > > everybody has to be accommodated.  The RSS has > infiltrated the > > (Indian) army as much as various kinds of Wahabism or > other kinds of > > religious ideology have infiltrated the ISI or the > armed forces in > > Pakistan. They are human beings like everyone else and > they too get > > influenced. > > > > Indian media and sensationalizing of news coming out > from Pakistan > > > > I think the media in both countries play this game. > Whenever > > something happens here, they hype it up there, while > when something > > happens there, they hype the news here. We say that we > live in times > > of an information revolution and free press, but even > then nobody > > gets to know the complete picture… > > > > The Pakistani media is a little different from the > Indian media. They > > stand on a slightly different foundation. But both > share the problem > > of a lack of accountability…The trouble in India is > that 90 per cent > > of their revenue comes from the corporate > sector…there’s increasing > > privatization and corporatization of governance, > education, health, > > infrastructure and water management. So in India you > see an open > > criticism of governance, but very rarely criticism of > corporations. > > It’s a structural problem. It’s not about good > people or bad people. > > It’s just that you can’t expect a company to work > against itself. > > This is a very serious issue which needs to be sorted > out. > > > > Is the Indian army a sacred cow? > > > > The Indian army is quite a sacred cow especially on TV > and Bollywood. > > But at the same time if you talk to the people in the > Indian army, > > they say that they feel that the media is very > critical of them. I > > don’t share that view. I think it is a sacred cow. > People are willing > > to give them a lot of leeway. > > > > Women and their fight for justice > > > > When women fight for justice, we must fight for every > kind of justice… > > We must fight for justice for men and justice for > children. Because > > if you fight for one kind of justice and you tolerate > another, then > > it’s a pretty hollow fight. You may not be able to > fight every > > battle, but you should be able to put yourself on the > line and say I > > believe this. > > > > > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > > Raqs Media Collective > > shuddha at sarai.net > > www.sarai.net > > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with  > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From ayishaa at gmail.com Thu May 14 08:18:56 2009 From: ayishaa at gmail.com (Ayisha Abraham) Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 08:18:56 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Bar1-call for applications-2009 In-Reply-To: <74b8cec50905130728x79256d2eh4c7037d3e4363b46@mail.gmail.com> References: <74b8cec50905130728x79256d2eh4c7037d3e4363b46@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7357da570905131948x2161708p2b784fadae2e6762@mail.gmail.com> BAR1 CALL FOR APPLICATIONS   ------ INDIA-INDIA RESIDENCY 2009 Supported by India foundation for the Arts (IFA) Please forward: The Bengaluru Artist Residency One (BAR 1) Invites applications for an interdisciplinary artist residency in Bangalore City from the 1st of July to the 30th of September 2009 Deadline for Applications: 10th June 2009 Check attachment for details. -- Ayisha Abraham 002 Serena # 2 Lloyd Road Cooke Town Bangalore 560005 tele: 91-80-25464058 From ayishaa at gmail.com Thu May 14 08:56:46 2009 From: ayishaa at gmail.com (Ayisha Abraham) Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 08:56:46 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Bar1 Call for applications Message-ID: <7357da570905132026h19287dbboc8dcae56b94fcc07@mail.gmail.com> Bar1 Call for Applications The Bengaluru Artist Residency Programme group (bar1) invites applications for an interdisciplinary artist residency in Bangalore City from the 1st of July to the 30th of September 2009. BAR Bengaluru ArtistResidency supported by: India Foundation for the Arts Bar1 is a non-profit arts organisation founded by artists for artists to foster the exchange of ideas and experiences through guest residencies in Bengaluru. Bengaluru Artist Residency One is registered as a Public Charitable Trust. Please visit www.bar1.org Bengaluru Artist Residency One (bar1) We are currently in partnership with Pro Helvetia, Delhi (the Swiss Arts Council, India). The India-India residency programme has been made possible by the exclusive support of India Foundation for the Arts (IFA). The Residency This three-month residency will host four emerging Indian artists (3 from all over India and 1 from Bangalore) who work in different fields of art practice. It is dedicated to the exchange of ideas between those working in different cultural milieu across India. The residency hopes to foster a creative engagement with the cultural scene of Bengaluru. Through this residency bar1 hopes to nurture the interdisciplinary impetus for collaboration and collective exchange. Residents will share a space with other resident artists from different regions and creative fields. It will also be possible for them to interact with a range of institutions (scientific, industrial and artistic) based in Bengaluru or to simply use their residency term as a playful laboratory. Above all, bar1 thinks that the invited artists should have the freedom to develop their work at their own pace and interpret the residency from their own perspectives. However, due to the budgetary constraints of this year’s residency, we are unable to provide each artist with a large working space. The artists should therefore be prepared to work with open mindedness, mobility and flexibility The bar1-venue with a roof terrace will host an introductory ‘Salon’ during the first month, where exchange and discussions can take place. These ‘salons’ will be shaped by the residents together with bar1, and will be an opportunity for them to introduce themselves, present their work and the background of their practice to the wider arts community in the city. Besides they can bring in themes of their own choice and collaborations with their co-residents. There will be a ‘Final Salon‘ at the end, which will not necessarily comprise only of an exhibition of the final results, but also a chance for meetings and productive collaborations could be one such outcome in diverse exhibiting formats. Application Guidelines bar1 hopes to attract artists from an extended field of cultural practices -- in the visual arts, painting, drawing, sculpture, performance, installation, video, new media; in audio: sound, music; in oral traditions/storytelling, poetry and writing; in creative applied arts, design, architecture, advertising, and performance. The artist could be a cook, a documentary filmmaker, a poet, a sound or body artist or a painter. Applicants should be seriously researching and developing their own language or the language of their art form. They should be open and willing to live and work together for that period without the need for too much privacy. The selected residents will have to commit themselves to being present in Bengaluru during the time of their residency, except for short work related trips. Bar1 invites artists to apply for the whole three-month term from July1, 2009 until September 30, 2009. How to Apply Please post the following to the address below: • Curriculum vitae (cv) including contact details: name, e-mail and telephone number. • Samples of recent work (preferably cd/dvd, or hard copy) • A short statement which puts your work samples into context, gives an idea of your artistic concerns / areas of interest, why you are interested in a residency of this kind in Bengaluru and how you may want to make use of the city, its institutions, specific landscape or culture. Address: BAR 1, c/o Surekha 10, Abhijit Apartments, 7th Cross, Venkatesh Layout, Sanjaynagar, Bangalore 560094 Application deadline: 10th June (successful applicants will be informed by 15th June) The documentations sent will not be returned. For further inquiries please contact bar1studio at gmail.com Facilities The bar1-residency apartment has two bedrooms, a living area and a furnished kitchen and a big terrace. The residents will have to make their own arrangements for food and can cook at the residency. The 3 artists from across India will live at the bar1-residency apartment. The Bangalore artist will live and work from his/her home and studio, but is expected to be in regular contact with the 3 other residency guests. Financial and other Support Travel expenses; Maximum of Rs. 8000 - Bangalore to and fro (against bills). Stipend Rs.24,000 / 3 months (monthly 8000/ artist). Working budget Rs. 15,000/ 3 months (against bills) A co-ordinator will be in charge of logistics and the needs of the guests, from their arrival in Bangalore until their departure. Additional assistance will be available later. Working space In the beginning the Bangalore artist will work from his/her usual working place and the 3 other guests will work from the residency venue. This is not an ideal situation, but the first phase of the residency should be regarded as scouting period, to build up contacts, to familiarize with the city and to conceptualise the work. Later there will be additional working space. General note The bar1-organizers of the India-India Residency 2009 had to shape the programme with restricted means. The last year experience shows that it is crucial that all the residency guests understand that bar1 is a group of Bangalore artists, having to fine-tune the residency -- Ayisha Abraham 002 Serena # 2 Lloyd Road Cooke Town Bangalore 560005 tele: 91-80-25464058 From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Thu May 14 09:32:50 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 09:32:50 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Indecent Groping of Female students by people of Authority in Uttar Pradesh Technical University! Message-ID: <890962.5366.qm@web94706.mail.in2.yahoo.com> As if something in some hell on earth exists as decent groping, I am not discussing doctors and Nurses, ok or the lover here. I leave this as  Not fifty Kms away from the centre or the place where I live in it happens every exam day in and out. The offenders, female members of the flying squad. Now of the precise administrative setup I do not know for it os not exactly the matter of importance. And feel ashamed to think this conglomerate of private colleges does not bother you for you have kept conacts only in premier institutes in the nation, for this institute churns out thousands of Engineers and MBA's every year. The level of consciousness has always been kept low in the society, where man has been distancing himself from nature and instincts, thereby creating by a rule of law a system that slowly conspires to isolate him from his rights and from one uncertain world into another he goes shedding his posessions feelings and values in search of some relative heaven, but the ever bevildering uncertainities chain him down as eventually a world horse is tamed. Many things IN SGTB Khaksa college, it is bannered by the authority 'Patakha dress not alowed, By order', do not ask me what things that includes from make up and so on. Calling a pathaka a patakha and giving her all the undesired attention on earth is perfectly fair according to the members of the governing body or on the tails side they made wonderful and colourful assumptions on the virility of majority of the students, pardon me the joke demands racism not out of thin air. But such cases would not certainly be tolerated at most places in DU by at least a few, thanks to talks and reforms by Sensitisors everywhere But why only in DU? Back to the main issue, yes Examinations. First whatever I am I never dared to sit for JEE,luckily today I boast of consciousness. Thus I claim not that Gender Sensitisation under Ordinance 15d has proved a great deal, but definitely at least a few people are there to fight for such causes. There things are worse. Proceedures adhering the provisions of the law of land to preserve the dignity and stature of an individual specially women are respected, usually, and fought for, at every place where state tends to be unmindful of such rights. Where frisking of female by female is allowed, the search code maintain, with strict regards to Decency. Women who attach a sense of piety with their body should be allowed to do so, at least our bodies are not to be infringed into. Reportedly these female members frisk (the tern means zero body conact and swift movement of hands, a controversial issue between me and CISF jawaans at times!) vulgarly, and repeatedly, and use a degre of intimidation. Senior faculty members present even are not comfortable with such high handedness and ill treatment. One very senior HOD was asked why she didn't intervene by influence or otherwise, she told I find such people dirty. And so be the girl students frisked in broad day  light, who try to forget their ordeal as fate of masses. Sadly. No one intervenes.. OK one may be thinking this as an attempt to ambush the squad doing some good, but I'd like to add that home centres are not prevalent, so little politics is doing good there.This happens year after year. Don't understand why people deep rooted in the education failed to be friendly to students and why they need to intimidate to get results out. If my writing does some good I'd be in sixth heavens. Else, Obey!  . NB I might be jobless for I am not an engineer but these pass outs will make great wives and managers with no issues or is it? If you have friends, I guess you do plz verify and protest. Some line has to be drawn. After all these are students not jail-convicts, & even convicts deserve humanity. Inflicting insults on ones body keeps him or her at high risks of stunted personality disorder. Other concern is where women in the society stage themselves and hurt dignity of womanhood. Another serious question is there hidden in this trend in this any sort of perversion by the very people unto whom students should look up? I have verified it to be true from credible sources in a Noida engineering college and a management institute. This is indulgance not frisking raw form of disciplining. If people respect the right to retain control over one's body at least, plz spread this e-mail to every person you know let them know this is wrong! Bring your gang together. Do your thing. Find your favourite Yahoo! group at http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/ From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Thu May 14 09:47:48 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 09:47:48 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: [friendsforeveronnet] Difficulties faced by LOGO Designers.... In-Reply-To: <341380d00905130814r696dcce7idf87747631370258@mail.gmail.com> References: <966139.81353.qm@web94715.mail.in2.yahoo.com> <341380d00905130814r696dcce7idf87747631370258@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <354506.7631.qm@web94709.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Dear Anupam, Thanks for taking inetrest, and springing upon the rat at it's mouth watering smell. Thats why I left them free on this forum. without my having quite much do do with them. YOu might have seen the font-based similarities. INdeed the challenge is a legal one. The CNN and FDA issue that you raised is one I had heard of at quite an young age well so you can not quite blame my memory or intent. Well some copying some aspects is intentional to aim at that particular organisations brand value, to save costs etc, Usually fonts collide.  Where logo designing comes, I get stumped!Though it looks as an interesting subject, I have never trained at it. Why the hell there are only a few differentiable angles on the plane in do we look at similarity in designs? To conjure more stories?Or is it a result of computers taking hold over the artists brain? I am dead against IPL and shumpeterianism, not neo-ones.I have an entrance so I'd love to hear on aspects of Logo design and on recent events in 2008-09, a summary on which they might ask questions. . IIMC delhi.(open ended).  Regards Subhrodip. Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter http://beta.cricket.yahoo.com From pawan.durani at gmail.com Thu May 14 10:07:03 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 10:07:03 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] "Tahqiq", written by Sh. Arjan Dev Majboor - A Review Message-ID: <6b79f1a70905132137n5a827325ycd62499b300963d@mail.gmail.com> *"Tahqiq", written by Sh. Arjan Dev Majboor - A Review*** * * *By Upender Ambardar* **** The book under review titled *"Tahqiq", *written in nastaliq Kashmiri by Sh .Arjan Dev Majboor published in the year 1999 (price not mentioned), spanning into 183 pages encases nine diverse essays. The book besides being a recounting of the past history of Kashmir and its historical icons is also a perceptive account of travel cum memoir. The thoughtfully selected and compelling writings included in the book give an insightful account about Kanishka, the renowned and illustrious ruler and history and culture of Himalayan states. A history of Kashmir, Kashmir under the Buddhist and Hindu era, Kashmir as encompassed in 'Gulabnama', Ritualistic Kashmiri marriage songs in the backdrop of mythology, Mysore as seen by the author and lastly the author's literary odyssey. The narrative of the first essay entitled 'Kanishka, the great Kushan emperor', unfolds his multifaceted attributes as a determined ruler, an accomplished and gallant soldier, an expert on warfare and a political strategist, who ruled over a vast area of the Indian sub-continent in the second century AD with an iron grip for twenty three years. His capital Purashpur, the present day Peshawar, a flourishing city of plenty was well connected both with the then extended Indian peninsula and the Central Asia through silk route. The hitherto lesser known facts and details about the Kushan dynasty, the trade and cultural ties, the architectural masterpieces of the Gandhara style and the hosting of the third Buddhist World Conference at Kundalvan-Srinagar outskirts are deftly pieced together. The second essay entitled 'History and Culture of Himalayan States based on the fifth volume of the name-same book offers an intimate understanding of the Sikh rule in Jammu region from the year 1810 to 1820, awareness about three Dogra rulers, the subsequent conquests in Ladakh and Baltistan, the emergence of Mian Dido as a local hero besides providing an incredible information about Maharaja Gulab Singh and armed exploits of General Zorawar Singh. 'A history of Kashmir', the third essay is an analysed narration, which gives a haunting glimpse of political geography and socio-religious history of ancient Kashmir. It also dwells upon the various antiquated path-routes that led to Kashmirand the traditional Kashmiri crafts and arts. The next essay named ' Kashmir' is a condensed narration based on the review of Kashmir related different books. The author has delved deep into many layers of Kashmir's history presenting an integrated and sequential information about the medieval Kashmir, eminent rulers of Kashmir besides familiarising the reader with historical and cultural aspects of Kashmir. The essay on 'Kashmir under Hindu and Buddhist era' is a convincing and illuminating analysis of Kashmirespecially under Buddhist rule. It brings to life many centuries of Kashmir's rich past which contributed to the emergence of a remarkable civilisation at that time. The essay under the heading 'Kashmir as covered in Gulab-naama' sets in motion the life and time of Maharaja Gulab Singh besides giving a brief look at the history of Jammu and important happenings in Kashmir during the said period. The essay on ritualistic marriage songs and mythology is a delightful glimpse into the tradition of 'Wanvun' sung on the auspicious occasions. Written in a simple and straight forward style supplemented by a few sample songs, the essay is an invaluable peep in this form of ancient ritual invocation of Kashmir. In the next essay 'Mysore as seen by the author', the reader is introduced to a rich mix of heritage, history, richness and variety of the landscape. The densely informative and absorbing account is sure to stimulate the imagination of a reader bitten by the wander bug. The last essay of the book is a life odyssey and literary sojourn of the author Sh. Arjan Dev Majboor, an accomplished writer, poet and researcher. It is a vividly relived memoir, which is replete with nostalgia filled yesterdays besides having heavier and lighter moments of life. It also unfolds identifiable and tensely felt situations in addition to moments of despondency doubts, hopes and aspirations in the author's life. In a plainspeak, the book entitled *'Tahqiq' *, written in nastaliq Kashmirby Sh. Arjan Dev Majboor is an essay to read and understand refreshing work. Unquestionably, this insightful book is an essential reading for anyone having an appetite for awareness and enlightenment. * * **(The author is a well-known Researcher on History and Culture of ** Kashmir** .* ** Source: Kashmir Sentinel __._,_.___ From anansi1 at earthlink.net Thu May 14 10:55:09 2009 From: anansi1 at earthlink.net (Paul D. Miller) Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 01:25:09 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [Reader-list] Sound Unbound Contributor Wins Pulitzer Prize Message-ID: <24161785.1242278709457.JavaMail.root@elwamui-muscovy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Hey people - I just wanted to write and say what heartfelt congratulations I feel for my friend Steve Reich who won the Pulitzer Prize this year in April. I just wanted to send a word-up to the list. His composition "Double Sextext" won the prestigious award. If you have a moment, you can check out the score on the Pulitzer Prize's website: http://www.pulitzer.org/works/2009-Music and hear clips on Itunes. Steve Reich wrote the introduction to my book on MIT Press, Sound Unbound, and has been incredibly supportive of my work over the years. Above all, he is a warm hearted and generous spirit. You can also hear the composition of his that I remixed with Kronos Quartet coming out soon! More on that in a little bit. On the other hand, the first version of the remix came out on the album "Reich Remixed" with many friends of mine, like Ninjatune's Coldcut. Reich, as always, was a step ahead of many of his peers, and he was the first composer of his generation to commission this kind of remix project. If you haven't had a moment, please check out Steve Reich's material - he's an amazing composer, and a true American original. Congrats and best wishes Steve! It's been a long time coming!!!! in peace, Paul aka Dj Spooky From jeebesh at sarai.net Thu May 14 12:22:40 2009 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh) Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 12:22:40 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Gurgaon Workers News - Newsletter 17 (May 2009) Message-ID: <1D118BEB-0349-403B-BB24-4835B2D9BC01@sarai.net> Gurgaon Workers News - Newsletter 17 (May 2009) full version: www.gurgaonworkersnews.wordpress.com email: gurgaon_workers_news at yahoo.co.uk In the May 2009 issue you can find: 1) Proletarian Experiences - Daily life stories and reports from a workers' perspective *** Auto-biographic story of a 49 years old driver about his experience as a working-class Sikh in Delhi since the 1970s, his experiences as a proletarian militant in a religious organisation, the shock of the anti-Sikh riots, his disillusionments and revelations... The story was told to FMS and published in issue 247, January 2009. In FMS longer stories about the (daily) life of workers are published under the heading "Aap-Ham kya-kya karte hain", asking "So what are you-we doing". The series emphasises the need to talk about ourselves regaining a sense of importance of our experiences and make them heard - against the big noise of the public life of stars, leaders, cooperate identities... *** Math and Wrath of Misery - The workers' reports tell us about average daily wages for workers in modern industries of about 100 Rs. This short note puts this wage in a context of daily expenditures. Followed by a short impression of distributing the Faridabad Majdoor Samaachaar in Gurgaon, Udyog Vihar. *** Long list of short workers' reports about wage and working conditions in Gurgaon factories. The reports are gathered/spread during the monthly distribution of 'Faridabad Majdoor Samaachaar' (Faridabad Workers' News). The reports were gathered/ spread between November 2008 and March 2009. We can see an impact of the economic slump, particularly in the automotive manufacturing sector, where shift hours have been reduced. Alankar Creation Anand Nishikawa (Maruti Suzuki supplier) Bharat Export Bharat International Campari Export Chintu Fashion Condor Dhir International (textiles for GAP) Eastern Medikit Evergreen International Femme Highfashion Garments Gaurav International (textiles for GAP) GOM Export Grafty Export Gulati Export Instyle Krishna Label Lara Exports Logwell Forge (Maruti Suzuki supplier) Mass Enterprise Mag Filter (Maruti Suzuki supplier) Mod Syrup Industries Modelama (textiles for GAP) Modern Lace House MY Fashion Omega Design Orient Clothing Pearl Global Premium Moulding and Pressing Richa and Company Richa Global Ridhima Export Radnik Export Rangi International Rolex Auto Sargam Export S&R Export Shahi Exports (Faridabad: GAP, Old Navy, Target, Spirit and Hugo Boss) Spark Viva Global Winter Wear *** Proletarian Poverty and Common Wealth Games - After a deadly work accident on the huge Common Wealth Games construction site in Delhi workers struck and destroyed company property. The accident was just the last straw - the general working-conditions are bad enough and the credit and profit squeezed construction companies (see short summary) have to pass the squeeze on to the workers. People's Union for Democratic Rights has just published a report on the conditions on the site: http://www.pudr.org/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_details&Itemid=63&gid=179 *** Another fatal factory fire - On 1st of May 2009 the Lakhani shoe factory in Faridabad Sector-24 caught fire, six workers were killed, 30 more were injured severely. According to workers, a blast in the boiler next to the basement of the two-storey factory caused the fire. The police claim that the factory owner has disappeared. 2) Collective Action - Reports on proletarian struggles in the area *** Tecumseh Workers' Report about re-structuring process and workers' resistance at Tecumseh compressor manufacturing factory, formerly belonging to the multi-national Whirlpool. 3) According to Plan - General information on the development of the region or on certain company policies *** Real Estate of Crisis in Gurgaon - Short summary about current real estate crisis in Gurgaon. The gold rush is over, the makers of neo-liberal bubble-town Gurgaon leave behind concrete-steel skeletons, tomb-stones of their unfinished business. *** Security Fears - Private-Public Re-armament in Gurgaon. One of the main real estate developers DLF now ventures into the boom sector of crisis, profiting from the post-Mumbai-attack upper-middle-class paranoia: in Gurgaon DLF sets up a training camp for it's Terra Force, a security company based on low-paid labour of a migrant-peasant work-force. 4) About the Project - Updates on Gurgaon Workers News *** Help from some friends - People in delhi area who are up for helping with the newsletter, who have stories to share or who want to give a hand, heart and mind for distributing Faridabad Majdoor Samaachaar in the area, please get in touch. *** Glossary Updated version of the Glossary: things that you always wanted to know, but could never be bothered to google. Now even in alphabetical order. News from the Special Exploitation Zone - www.gurgaonworkersnews.wordpress.com From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Thu May 14 12:59:59 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 12:59:59 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: Indecent Groping and Uttar Pradesh Technical University! Message-ID: <575987.65282.qm@web94702.mail.in2.yahoo.com> ----- Forwarded Message ---- From: subhrodip sengupta To: Readers list Yousuf Sarai. Sent: Thursday, 14 May, 2009 9:32:50 AM Subject: Indecent Groping of Female students by people of Authority in Uttar Pradesh Technical University! As if something in some hell on earth exists as decent groping, I am not discussing doctors and Nurses, ok or the lover here. I leave this as  Not fifty Kms away from the centre or the place where I live in it happens every exam day in and out. The offenders, female members of the flying squad. Now of the precise administrative setup I do not know for it os not exactly the matter of importance. And feel ashamed to think this conglomerate of private colleges does not bother you for you have kept conacts only in premier institutes in the nation, for this institute churns out thousands of Engineers and MBA's every year. The level of consciousness has always been kept low in the society, where man has been distancing himself from nature and instincts, thereby creating by a rule of law a system that slowly conspires to isolate him from his rights and from one uncertain world into another he goes shedding his posessions feelings and values in search of some relative heaven, but the ever bevildering uncertainities chain him down as eventually a world horse is tamed. Many things IN SGTB Khaksa college, it is bannered by the authority 'Patakha dress not alowed, By order', do not ask me what things that includes from make up and so on. Calling a pathaka a patakha and giving her all the undesired attention on earth is perfectly fair according to the members of the governing body or on the tails side they made wonderful and colourful assumptions on the virility of majority of the students, pardon me the joke demands racism not out of thin air. But such cases would not certainly be tolerated at most places in DU by at least a few, thanks to talks and reforms by Sensitisors everywhere But why only in DU? Back to the main issue, yes Examinations. First whatever I am I never dared to sit for JEE,luckily today I boast of consciousness. Thus I claim not that Gender Sensitisation under Ordinance 15d has proved a great deal, but definitely at least a few people are there to fight for such causes. There things are worse. Proceedures adhering the provisions of the law of land to preserve the dignity and stature of an individual specially women are respected, usually, and fought for, at every place where state tends to be unmindful of such rights. Where frisking of female by female is allowed, the search code maintain, with strict regards to Decency. Women who attach a sense of piety with their body should be allowed to do so, at least our bodies are not to be infringed into. Reportedly these female members frisk (the tern means zero body conact and swift movement of hands, a controversial issue between me and CISF jawaans at times!) vulgarly, and repeatedly, and use a degre of intimidation. Senior faculty members present even are not comfortable with such high handedness and ill treatment. One very senior HOD was asked why she didn't intervene by influence or otherwise, she told I find such people dirty. And so be the girl students frisked in broad day  light, who try to forget their ordeal as fate of masses. Sadly. No one intervenes.. OK one may be thinking this as an attempt to ambush the squad doing some good, but I'd like to add that home centres are not prevalent, so little politics is doing good there.This happens year after year. Don't understand why people deep rooted in the education failed to be friendly to students and why they need to intimidate to get results out. If my writing does some good I'd be in sixth heavens. Else, Obey!  . NB I might be jobless for I am not an engineer but these pass outs will make great wives and managers with no issues or is it? If you have friends, I guess you do plz verify and protest. Some line has to be drawn. After all these are students not jail-convicts, & even convicts deserve humanity. Inflicting insults on ones body keeps him or her at high risks of stunted personality disorder. Other concern is where women in the society stage themselves and hurt dignity of womanhood. Another serious question is there hidden in this trend in this any sort of perversion by the very people unto whom students should look up? I have verified it to be true from credible sources in a Noida engineering college and a management institute. This is indulgance not frisking raw form of disciplining. If people respect the right to retain control over one's body at least, plz spread this e-mail to every person you know let them know this is wrong! ________________________________ Bollywood news, movie reviews, film trailers and more! Click here. Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with Yahoo! India Travel http://in.travel.yahoo.com/ From rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com Thu May 14 13:01:24 2009 From: rajen882uppinangadi at gmail.com (Rajen Uppinangadi) Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 13:01:24 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] wishful daydreaming in divided polity.? Message-ID: <61164a90905140031o4bf2cb55sb7c61ff9f4269237@mail.gmail.com> Pawan jee, wishing you all the best, Advani as a leader material is good only as organiser, no capacity of decision making is there with him according to my assessment, let us debate it, but he is unfit to be PM. As home minister for six years, Advani has not taken any decision for the nation worth writing home about, may be a good orator, good organiser, but what prevented him to attend to kashmiri pandits languishing in delhi camps for over sixty years, to get them settled in their land of own, with full protection as national conference also was with NDA.? What prevented him to sort out the Ayodhya issue with all concerned instead of shying away for being seen to be as secular.?He took on manmohan singh as weak PM, but when it was time to give the final punch, Advani took the sucker punch from the weak PM, who is again not as honest as media shows him off , for the same manmohan won the N-deal vote with most dishonest means of money power. Regards, Rajen. From ambarien at yahoo.co.uk Thu May 14 14:08:07 2009 From: ambarien at yahoo.co.uk (ambarien at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 08:38:07 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] A hearsay note on social fact finding Message-ID: <589340.4386.qm@web24107.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Dear mahmood and others following the debate: I knew this was coming. I am happy it did. Yes. I agree that there is a multiplicity of opinion around the events that unfolded at L-18 Batla House on September 19. This sense of a complex perspective not only informs perspectives of those who intellectualise on lists From ambarien at yahoo.co.uk Thu May 14 14:08:07 2009 From: ambarien at yahoo.co.uk (ambarien at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 08:38:07 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] A hearsay note on social fact finding Message-ID: <13590.87522.qm@web24105.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Dear mahmood and others following the debate: I knew this was coming. I am happy it did. Yes. I agree that there is a multiplicity of opinion around the events that unfolded at L-18 Batla House on September 19. This sense of a complex perspective not only informs perspectives of those who intellectualise on lists From ambarien at yahoo.co.uk Thu May 14 14:18:06 2009 From: ambarien at yahoo.co.uk (ambarien qadar) Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 08:48:06 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] Apology Message-ID: <724976.79131.qm@web24102.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Dear all and Mahmood, My mail 'A hearsay note on social fact finding' got posted by a mistaken mouse click on the list. It was a working draft of a posting I had made much earlier..around September 19..and was stored as a draft. I clicked wrong while cleaning my folder. Kindly ignore. Thanks Ambarien Al Qadar Ambarien Al Qadar Assistant Professor, Video and Television Anwar Jamal Kidwai Mass Communication Research Center Jamia Millia Islamia From ambarien at yahoo.co.uk Thu May 14 14:20:01 2009 From: ambarien at yahoo.co.uk (ambarien qadar) Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 08:50:01 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] Apology Message-ID: <659071.3022.qm@web24101.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Dear all and Mahmood, My mail 'A hearsay note on social fact finding' got posted by a mistaken mouse click on the list. It was a working draft of a posting I had made much earlier..around September 19..and was stored as a draft. I clicked wrong while cleaning my folder. Kindly ignore. Thanks Ambarien Al Qadar Ambarien Al Qadar Assistant Professor, Video and Television Anwar Jamal Kidwai Mass Communication Research Center Jamia Millia Islamia From navayana at gmail.com Thu May 14 15:00:21 2009 From: navayana at gmail.com (Navayana Publishing) Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 15:00:21 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Happy Sunday :) Library and Garbage bins In-Reply-To: <748635.42842.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <341380d00905110349r9511b39i146b97445c2f52ae@mail.gmail.com> <748635.42842.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear All Am coming a bit late into this. Jebeesh had raised two issues: libraries and their poor state and way garbage bins are designed so badly. I was wondering how and why this discussion list took up the library question more eagerly and has nothing to say on the question of garbage and the way we dispose it. This perhaps owes to the fact that millions of unnamed/ unknown dalits out there who do the job of garbage disposal without any recourse to decent gear or equipment. I had written exentesively on this in Tehelka seriesnearly two years ago. Our garbage bins/ disposal sites are ill-designed because the designers look down on any labour that involves dirtying one's hands; and there are anyway faceless dalits to do the job. There's no concept of social design in India. Which probably explains why have such shoddy urban planning as such. While some Rs 50,000 crores is being spent on the Metro in Delhi, the network of 5,600 km of sewers with about 1.5 lakh manholes, managed by the DJB is pathetically designed. It needs to be yanked out, redesigned and relaid. But no one thinks it necessary to do so. There are no pressure groups for that. DJB will tell you it is impossible to do so. Why? Anand www.navayana.org On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 5:32 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Anupam > > Thanks. > > Your blessings would have been more than enough since I have no belief > invested in any such entity called God (or by whichever other name) > > Take care > > Kshmendra > > --- On Mon, 5/11/09, anupam chakravartty wrote: > > From: anupam chakravartty > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Happy Sunday :) Library and Garbage bins > To: "sarai list" > Date: Monday, May 11, 2009, 4:19 PM > > thanks for clarifying kshmendra. may god bless you. the idea of a > temple-library is unique/ > > anupam > > > On 5/11/09, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > > > Dear Anupam > > > > I put "strip" within quotes as I was not sure whether > "strip" is the > > appropiate word for that art-form. > > > > It was not meant to be an 'attack' on you or > 'contradicting' you > > > > Kshmendra > > > > --- On *Sun, 5/10/09, anupam chakravartty * > wrote: > > > > > > From: anupam chakravartty > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Happy Sunday :) Library and Garbage bins > > To: "sarai list" > > Date: Sunday, May 10, 2009, 8:06 PM > > > > thanks kshmendra but why have u attached quotes to the word strip. i dont > > understand. pray tell. > > > > On 5/10/09, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > > > > > Anupam > > > Delightful 'strip'. Thanks > > > > > > Rakesh > > > Public libraries would serve an excellent purpose. The poor and > homeless > > > could find temporary refuge in them, getting shielded from the cold > and > > > protected from heat. > > > > > > Only problem in that might be along the lines of the news story > "US > > library > > > bans 'offensive bodily odours' from entering!" > > > > > http://in.news.yahoo.com/139/20090415/959/tod-us-library-bans-offensive-bodily-odo.html > > > > > > Wonder how 'library going elite' (for elite they would be in > > comparison) > > > would react to the poor and homeless in the 'public space' of > a > > public > > > library > > > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On *Sun, 5/10/09, anupam chakravartty * > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > From: anupam chakravartty > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Happy Sunday :) Library and Garbage bins > > > To: "sarai list" > > > Date: Sunday, May 10, 2009, 5:13 PM > > > > > > Here's a little library's story. > > > http://www.soundofdrowning.com/lib.html > > > > > > regards anupam > > > > > > > > > On 5/10/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Jeebesh (and all) > > > > > > > > While the heat in this list could have been tackled by means of > more > > > > personal chats and more respect of both sides' views from > the > > other > > > > sides, here I wish to express my views on the first issue you > have > > > > raised. > > > > > > > > Any issue, be it water, roads, health, education, or even a > public > > > > library, can be addressed. However, there are umpteen points > > regarding > > > > as to why it is not an issue. And they are numerous in our > system of > > > > democracy (or as in Gulaal they say, it's just autocracy in > the > > name > > > > of democracy). > > > > > > > > The first issue here is about the way our democratic system > works. It > > > > is a system which is half full and half empty, meaning that it > is 50% > > > > democratic and 50% not, if one were to quote Ramachandra Guha > from > > his > > > > book 'India After Gandhi'. And it certainly is. We do > have a > > > system > > > > which has elections and the transition of power after elections > is > > > > also smooth. However, that's it. Our system begins and ends > with > > > > elections. After that, nobody cares. We never look at things > beyond > > > > elections. Any criticism of a government takes place only with > the > > > > point of view of elections. > > > > > > > > What this means is that only those issues which are important > from > > the > > > > election point of view, would be addressed. But the question > arises, > > > > as to then which issues are important, if they are there at all? > > Here, > > > > our media and the grassroots are totally at crossroads. The > media > > > > feels the PM or the CM at the state level are more important > issues > > > > than say water supply, health or education. On the other hand, > the > > > > candidates realize that is not necessarily the case, and they > > > > concentrate on the kind of developmental works undertaken and > some or > > > > the other sops being given. > > > > > > > > And what are these developmental works actually? The issues of > > > > livelihood. The issues of roti, kapda and makan. And if one may > add > > to > > > > it, in a certain way they are related to bijli, sadak aur paani. > > These > > > > are the issues which are uppermost in the minds of the people. > One > > > > must understand that with the kind of society we are, a caste > and > > > > religion-biased society, where Brahmins wouldn't eat with > Muslims > > or > > > > Dalits, where now even the OBC's live separately from them > and > > where > > > > inter-caste marriages are even now abhorred, at least in rural > areas, > > > > the kind of politicians who would emerge would also concentrate > only > > > > on giving doles to their supporters or caste/religion members as > cash > > > > or some kind of incentive. > > > > > > > > With the competition between people of different castes and > religions > > > > for such govt. doles and rewards like jobs, rather than them > fighting > > > > together for a common cause (long back this happened under > > Gandhi's > > > > movements), and with the kind of society we are (where people > revel > > in > > > > having contacts with the powerful and the rich rather than > following > > > > rules), all want a common minimum level of existence, from where > > > > education is excluded. > > > > > > > > Also, no political party has been imaginative enough to put > health > > and > > > > education as basic issues in their campaigns and trying to > corner the > > > > incumbent governments either during elections or during other > times > > > > through mass based movements. Neither have non-political > > organizations > > > > played a successful role in this part during such times to > ensure > > that > > > > such issues are addressed, which does not mean that they > haven't > > > > tried; it simply means they haven't tried enough or the > results > > are > > > > not enough. > > > > > > > > People in general also have little patience to understand the > > > > complexity of issues. That is why we have experts to understand > them. > > > > But one must remember that things should also be made palatable > to > > the > > > > electorate to back you. In this case, Manmohan Singh is a huge > > > > failure, precisely because he has never contested an election > > himself. > > > > And Advani may have an advantage here mainly because he has won > a Lok > > > > Sabha election before this at least, so he could understand > possibly > > > > how to make an issue and its solution palatable to the public. > (This > > > > is a possibility, not necessarily the actuality). > > > > > > > > The second issue we have forgotten is in our society who is > doing > > > > what. The poor don't have the power to actually undertake > > movements on > > > > their own and fight a battle which can yield results. I > don't > > mean to > > > > say that the poor can't undertake movements. The poor in > many > > states > > > > may have actually done so, but one must remember that in > today's > > > > times, when our politicians are image-conscious, things which > are not > > > > popular are not going to make much headway. Therefore, one must > > > > realize that unless such things are popular or in the mainstream > > > > media, it is very difficult to get the point across. > > > > > > > > Moreover, the poor are more concerned with their livelihoods, > which > > is > > > > the most important issue for them. Things like library are > non-issues > > > > from their point of view. > > > > > > > > The rich on the other hand do have the power, so also the middle > > > > class. The media is also on this side. However, we have tended > to > > > > concentrate more on issues which are not going to help the poor > at > > > > all. Forget that, we have not even concentrated on issues which > can > > > > help the society at large. Even in the voting campaigns, people > are > > > > being encouraged to vote. But the moot point remains this: if > all the > > > > candidates are corrupt, what is the point of voting, even if for > the > > > > least corrupt candidate? After all, corruption be it of Re. 1 or > > lakhs > > > > can and should not be tolerated. If terrorism is not tolerated, > how > > > > come corruption is tolerated? > > > > > > > > Similarly, Hindutva seems also to be an issue going by some > great > > > > Rediff articles and views expressed on them. Malls and removal > of > > > > slums are issues, even though people don't try to understand > at > > all > > > > the situational changes which can take place by having malls at > > > > certain places, or even the problems in slums and how they can > be > > > > corrected without removing them. And of course, we have some > other > > > > nonsense things to talk about. > > > > > > > > Conclusion: > > > > > > > > The library is a public good, and ultimately the library will > benefit > > > > the public. The problem is that the rich don't want to fight > for > > it as > > > > they think it's useless to involve themselves in such fights > > which are > > > > unprofitable (or non-money yielding). The poor don't fight > for it > > as > > > > they have more important issues to look at. The media > doesn't > > take it > > > > up as it's not a 'TRP-giving' news to be looked at, > or it > > is > > > too > > > > serious. And our politicians being image-conscious, believe that > > > > these are not the things which will fetch them votes. > > > > > > > > So the library is a non-starter in our cities. > > > > > > > > And so, we don't have spaces in public to debate with on a > > personal > > > > level by and large. > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > Rakesh > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in > > > the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in > > the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- www.navayana.org Navayana 120, Ground Floor Shahpur Jat New Delhi 110017 Landline: +91-11-26494795 Mobile: +91-9971433117 From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Thu May 14 15:15:48 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 15:15:48 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] wishful daydreaming in divided polity.? In-Reply-To: <61164a90905140031o4bf2cb55sb7c61ff9f4269237@mail.gmail.com> References: <61164a90905140031o4bf2cb55sb7c61ff9f4269237@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear all I don't understand why did people become so surprised when Manmohan Singh called the Left's bluff by means of political gamesmanship and Samajwadi's party support to get his govt. through on the July 22 trust vote. After all, Manmohan Singh was, is and will be a politician. Yes, he may be loyal to the Gandhi family, but he is a politician. Otherwise, neither would he have been the Finance Minister (one of the most important ministries in the Central Govt.) under the Narasimha rao regime, nor would he have been the Prime Minister of the UPA regime. Secondly, I think we have taken this 'weak PM' tag too far. First of all, after Narasimha Rao, I don't think there have been PM's who have been strong. One can argue that Vajpayee was strong, but then there were numerous occasions when he was short changed by RSS. There are many unofficial reports to this case, and one mustn't forget that Vajpayee had to accede to many requests by the RSS and also vice versa. The same has happened with Manmohan Singh as well. There are many here who would believe that Manmohan is weak because Sonia takes the decisions. In that case, I would like to know why was Sonia ready to sacrifice the UPA regime at the insistence of Manmohan, for the Indo-US nuclear deal? The deal would not have been operational even till the end of the UPA regime (as it turns out now), and no US company has got any contract for nuclear power plant or anything related to it. May be on Quattrochi issue Manmohan was indeed weak, but what about the weakness of Vajpayee at the time of Kandahar? What about his weakness when women were being raped in Gujarat to take 'revenge for Godhra'? What about his weakness when on the basis of just one confession (of Afzal), India went to a near war with Pakistan and lost soldiers in substantial number without even fighting a war? Where was his courage after the Parliament attack? Can our nationalist brothers on this forum answer? Even the investigation into the attack was not carried out properly. Can you even tell me the names of those 5 people who attacked the Parliament? And there were news reports that actually 6 attacked the parliament, but only 5 were shot down. Where is the 6th? Everybody talks about Afzal hanging. If Vajpayee had great courage, he could have shown action to his words 'aar paar ki ladai'. And now we have Advani who even has written that he has no connection with the Kandahar hijack and the decision to release the three terrorists. Great. Then how did the govt. function during the NDA regime? And this is coming from a man who later became the Deputy PM. What qualification did such a man have to become the deputy PM? Few points to ponder about. What we need is a strong govt which has some proper ethical values on which it takes decisions, not one which takes decisions based on corrupt and money minded ways without caring for the people at large. Not a khichdi sarkaar which will be more concerned with their own stability rather than the stability of the South Asian region which can bring prosperity, peace and happiness to the people directly and indirectly. And both the BJP and the Congress are incapable of giving that even if they had an absolute majority of their own. Regards Rakesh From patrice at xs4all.nl Thu May 14 16:15:00 2009 From: patrice at xs4all.nl (Patrice Riemens) Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 12:45:00 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [Reader-list] Another Book Plug ; -) The Meaning of the Local, Politics of Place in Urban India Message-ID: <34812.195.169.149.4.1242297900.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> FYI Hopefully the book is available at a cheaper rate in India... The Meaning of the Local Politics of Place in Urban India Edited by Geert de Neve, Henrike Donner List Price: £80.00 Routledge Publication Date: 21/12/2006 Pages: 256 Description About the Book By zooming in on urban localities in India and by unpacking the 'meaning of the local' for those who live in them, the ten papers in this volume redress a recurrent asymmetry in contemporary debates about globalisation. In much literature, the global is associated with transnationalism, dynamism and activity, and the local with static identities and history. Focusing on a range of locales in India's metropolitan areas and provincial small towns, the contributions move beyond the assertion that space is socially constructed to explore the ways in which social and political relations are themselves spatially and historically contingent. Using detailed ethnography, the authors highlight the vitality of place-making in the lives of urban dwellers and the centrality of a 'politics of place' in the production of power, difference and inequality. The volume illustrates how urban spaces are increasingly interconnected through wider social and spatial processes, while local boundaries and group-based identities are at the same time reconstructed, and often even consolidated, through the use of 'traditional' idioms and localised practices. All contributions relate detailed case studies of everyday activities to a range of contemporary debates that highlight various spatial aspects of cultural identities, economic restructuring and political processes in India. The volume provides an interdisciplinary perspective on urban life in rapidly changing political and economic environments. It offers a contribution to policy-orientated debates on urban livelihoods and urban planning as well as a wealth of ethnographic material for those interested in the spatial dimensions of urban life in India. From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Thu May 14 16:23:28 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 16:23:28 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Indecent Groping and Uttar Pradesh Technical University! Message-ID: <964808.22630.qm@web94706.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Social consciousness is sorry if it smells like individualist fredom only at war with social order. Here it is the consciouness to understand the nature and character of forces involved. Prima facie it is the orderly conduct by a lady supervisor. But round the way, it is done in a way disregarding female modesty and feelings of piety assosciated with body without the students consent. Another student gets involved when he or she starts hating the insult that comes out and realises a mass protest is necessary to give credibility to the facts. Order and fairness are necessary to justify the system and not in itself. The people should guard their rights not by cheating off course as that again justifies the systems functioning by good marks but by adhering to strict standards, protesting against excessive frisking in this case. And this is a true trend. Unfortunately. ________________________________ From: subhrodip sengupta To: Readers list Yousuf Sarai. Sent: Thursday, 14 May, 2009 12:59:59 PM Subject: Fw: Indecent Groping and Uttar Pradesh Technical University! ----- Forwarded Message ---- From: subhrodip sengupta To: Readers list Yousuf Sarai. Sent: Thursday, 14 May, 2009 9:32:50 AM Subject: Indecent Groping of Female students by people of Authority in Uttar Pradesh Technical University! As if something in some hell on earth exists as decent groping, I am not discussing doctors and Nurses, ok or the lover here. I leave this as  Not fifty Kms away from the centre or the place where I live in it happens every exam day in and out. The offenders, female members of the flying squad. Now of the precise administrative setup I do not know for it os not exactly the matter of importance. And feel ashamed to think this conglomerate of private colleges does not bother you for you have kept conacts only in premier institutes in the nation, for this institute churns out thousands of Engineers and MBA's every year. The level of consciousness has always been kept low in the society, where man has been distancing himself from nature and instincts, thereby creating by a rule of law a system that slowly conspires to isolate him from his rights and from one uncertain world into another he goes shedding his posessions feelings and values in search of some relative heaven, but the ever bevildering uncertainities chain him down as eventually a world horse is tamed. Many things IN SGTB Khaksa college, it is bannered by the authority 'Patakha dress not alowed, By order', do not ask me what things that includes from make up and so on. Calling a pathaka a patakha and giving her all the undesired attention on earth is perfectly fair according to the members of the governing body or on the tails side they made wonderful and colourful assumptions on the virility of majority of the students, pardon me the joke demands racism not out of thin air. But such cases would not certainly be tolerated at most places in DU by at least a few, thanks to talks and reforms by Sensitisors everywhere But why only in DU? Back to the main issue, yes Examinations. First whatever I am I never dared to sit for JEE,luckily today I boast of consciousness. Thus I claim not that Gender Sensitisation under Ordinance 15d has proved a great deal, but definitely at least a few people are there to fight for such causes. There things are worse. Proceedures adhering the provisions of the law of land to preserve the dignity and stature of an individual specially women are respected, usually, and fought for, at every place where state tends to be unmindful of such rights. Where frisking of female by female is allowed, the search code maintain, with strict regards to Decency. Women who attach a sense of piety with their body should be allowed to do so, at least our bodies are not to be infringed into. Reportedly these female members frisk (the tern means zero body conact and swift movement of hands, a controversial issue between me and CISF jawaans at times!) vulgarly, and repeatedly, and use a degre of intimidation. Senior faculty members present even are not comfortable with such high handedness and ill treatment. One very senior HOD was asked why she didn't intervene by influence or otherwise, she told I find such people dirty. And so be the girl students frisked in broad day  light, who try to forget their ordeal as fate of masses. Sadly. No one intervenes.. OK one may be thinking this as an attempt to ambush the squad doing some good, but I'd like to add that home centres are not prevalent, so little politics is doing good there.This happens year after year. Don't understand why people deep rooted in the education failed to be friendly to students and why they need to intimidate to get results out. If my writing does some good I'd be in sixth heavens. Else, Obey!  . NB I might be jobless for I am not an engineer but these pass outs will make great wives and managers with no issues or is it? If you have friends, I guess you do plz verify and protest. Some line has to be drawn. After all these are students not jail-convicts, & even convicts deserve humanity. Inflicting insults on ones body keeps him or her at high risks of stunted personality disorder. Other concern is where women in the society stage themselves and hurt dignity of womanhood. Another serious question is there hidden in this trend in this any sort of perversion by the very people unto whom students should look up? I have verified it to be true from credible sources in a Noida engineering college and a management institute. This is indulgance not frisking raw form of disciplining. If people respect the right to retain control over one's body at least, plz spread this e-mail to every person you know let them know this is wrong! ________________________________ Bollywood news, movie reviews, film trailers and more! Click here. ________________________________ Now surf faster and smarter ! Check out the new Firefox 3 - Yahoo! Edition * Click here! Share files, take polls, and make new friends - all under one roof. Go to http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/ From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Thu May 14 18:07:08 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 05:37:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Arundhati Roy in Karachi Message-ID: <268486.89301.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Arundhati Roy (AR) is in fashion. Rebel in fashion. A rebel with many causes to whine about with no solutions to offer. Since her grip on realities is uncertain, all that she can indulge in is vague intellectualising. That has always been in demand. Greater the obtuseness, easier it is to be highly thought of by unthinking minds.      Zubeida Mustafa knowingly or unwittingly brings out the vaguness of AR when she says "Roy’s advice to avoid being ‘with us or against us’ has implications she didn’t elucidate". Zubeida goes on to say "In times when action is needed and a position has to be taken — even if verbally — inaction or neutrality unwittingly props up the status quo."   How shallow minded AR is, gets highlighted in what are ostensibly quotes from her speech(es) at the WAF meet.   AR: "In India, there are two kinds of terrorism: one is Islamic terrorism and the other Maoist terrorism. But this term terrorism, we must ask, what do they mean by it. "   KK: Note the word "they". Who is this "they"? Why did AR fail to mention that there is also public discourse on 'Hindu terrorism' and 'Economic terrorism'.  Even on 'State terrorism' to some degree. What is this "they" she is trying to create? Or, is she trying to say there is no 'terrorism' in India and that it is just a figment of the imagination of the "they"?   AR: "I’m here to understand what you mean when you say Taliban."   KK : AR also spoke about a Taliban Boy. How did she know the boy was "Taliban" if she is yet to understand what they mean by "Taliban" in Pakistan? She seems to have her own understanding of that term "Taliban". Why doesnt she tell us what she means by "Taliban"?   AR (On Taliban): "Do you mean a militant? Do you mean an ideology? Exactly what is it that is being fought? That needs to be clarified. I think both needs to be fought. But if it’s an ideology it has to be fought differently, while if it’s a person with a gun then it has to be fought differently."   KK: Is AR such an ignorant idiot that she cannot see that militancy finds it's justifications and reassurances from the ideology? What is shameful about AR is that she uses the term 'militant' for those who have indulged in the most heinous of acts as Taliban and that has gravitated many women in Pakistan (under threat to their lives) to step-out and speak-out against the Taliban.   AR: "In India, they have been fighting insurgencies military since 1947 and it has become a more dangerous place."   KK: Note the "they" word again. But, what would AR have India do with those that she herself calls "insurgencies"? AR vagueness without any solutions. And, some doublespeake. In India she often hints at support for separatists. Why does she not espouse for India similar attitudes that she advocates in Pakistan where she proclaims "I think both needs to be fought" (whether militant or ideology)?   AR (on the 'Taliban Boy'): "He was made in a factory that is producing this kind of mind(set). (The question is) who owns that factory, who funds it? Unless we deal with that factory, dealing with the boy doesn’t help us."   KK: So what should be done about the 'Taliban Boy' while AR indulges in her vaguness of 'who owns the factory, who funds it?'? AR does not want her "Taliban Boy" dealt with. Should we in the meantime invite her 'Taliban Boy' to kill some more; behead some more; rape some more?    AR: "The RSS has infiltrated the (Indian) army as much as various kinds of Wahabism or other kinds of religious ideology have infiltrated the ISI or the armed forces in Pakistan."   KK: Note the words "as much". AR seems to know much more about the Indian Army then the rest of India knows for her to bring about an equivalence in the 'religion infiltration' into the Armed Forces of India and Pakistan. More likely is that she knows very little about the anxieties in Pakistan about the extent to which there is widespread suspicion (in Pakistan and elsewhere) about the continued influence exerted within the ISI and the Armed Forces of Pakistan by hardline religious ideology inspite of major efforts (especially by Musharraf) to unshackle them.   Kshmendra   --- On Wed, 5/13/09, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta Subject: [Reader-list] Arundhati Roy in Karachi To: "reader-list at sarai.net list" Date: Wednesday, May 13, 2009, 8:07 AM Dear All, The Delhi based writer Arundhati Roy has recently been in Karachi,  Pakistan at the invitation of civil society organizations and womens  rights groups. Here are two reports from Dawn, a Karachi based daily,  about meetings she attended (with an organization titled 'Womens  Action Forum') and interactions she had. I hope that they will be of  interest to people on the list. regards, Shuddha ------------------------------ 1. Arundhati Roy and the WAF By Zubeida Mustafa Wednesday, 13 May, 2009 http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/ pakistan/11-arundhati-roy-and-the-waf--02 ‘WOMEN to reclaim public spaces: a programme of defiance and  resistance.’ That is how the Women’s Action Forum defined the meeting  it held last Friday to mobilise public opinion against extremism. Although WAF’s concern to protect the space women have created in the  public mainstream has been on its agenda for some time, this goal has  acquired urgency in the wake of the events in Swat. The Nizam-i-Adl  Regulation in Malakand Division has brought people face to face with  the ugly reality of the Talibanisation phenomenon in the rural  backwaters as well as in modern urban centres. The Karachi meeting was well-attended by WAF’s standards. It is not  easy to mobilise women for any cause in this city of multiple  identities. The metropolis has a diversity of populations, cultures,  languages and economic interests posing a challenge to bring women  together on a single platform. Learning from its experience of the  lawyers’ movement that had succeeded in uniting the extreme right and  centrist political parties and the professionals on a single-point  agenda for two years, WAF also decided to make Talibanisation and  women the focal issue. That strategy paid off. Women had already been galvanised by the  video showing the flogging of a teenaged girl in Swat that activist  Samar Minallah courageously brought to the world media’s attention,  invoking in the process the wrath of the Taliban whose fatwa declared  her as wajibul qatl. The oppression of women is an issue that cuts  across classes to touch every female raw nerve. Whether it is the  smartly turned-out high-society woman or the working woman who slaves  all day long to feed an army of children and a drug-addict husband or  even the heavily veiled orthodox woman, each type, with few  exceptions, has expressed her horror at the flogging incident. Hence on this occasion WAF managed to bring a diverse crowd together  — the activists reaching out to the grassroots such as Amar Sindhu  from Sindh University Hyderabad, Parveen Rahman from the Orangi Pilot  Project and Sadiqa Salahuddin whose Indus Resource Centre runs  schools in the interior of Sindh, as well as the elites sitting side  by side with the three van-loads of women from Neelum Colony who  clean the homes of the rich and will be starting their adult literacy  classes from next week, courtesy Shabina’s Garage School. The variety of speakers focusing on the theme of women’s oppression  by the Taliban found a responsive audience. But the question that  made many ponder was: what next? Can this interest be sustained? If  they had not already started probing for answers, the thought- provoking speech by Arundhati Roy, the renowned Indian writer and  activist, did the trick. Coming from New Delhi on a solidarity  mission to WAF’s meeting. Roy raised four issues: • What do we mean by the Taliban and what gave birth to them? • Define your own space and do not surrender it. • Don’t allow yourself to be forced into making choices of the ‘with  us or against us’ type. • Don’t be selective in your injustices. These should provide food for thought for those struggling against  oppression. Without being specific, Roy exhorted her audience to look  into the structures and systems that lead to a situation of such  extreme oppression, some of which is rooted in the class conflict.  She believes one has to take a ‘total view’ of the matter, which she  admitted she had come to Pakistan to understand. The fact is that we live in a largely grey area where the lines are  not sharply drawn. There is a lot of overlapping between issues  touching gender, class, ethnicity, culture, political power and  economic gains. It is this reality one has to recognise and see how  the contradictions can be addressed. The demand to take sides  unambiguously, expressed so vividly in the days following 9/11 by  George Bush as ‘You are with us or against us,’ can create a dilemma  for people when negotiating these grey areas. Roy’s advice to avoid being ‘with us or against us’ has implications  she didn’t elucidate. In times when action is needed and a position  has to be taken — even if verbally — inaction or neutrality  unwittingly props up the status quo. If the status quo has been  created by inimical forces ostensibly now fighting their self-created  Frankenstein, where does one go? The practical approach would be to prioritise strategies that can be  adapted to changing circumstances. And what should these be? Here Roy  has a point when she says that one cannot be selective in the  justices one espouses and the injustices one denounces. In this  context Pakistanis find themselves trapped between the devil and the  deep sea. Attempting to rectify a problem here and another there  really doesn’t help because our entire state structure is colonial,  as a booklet titled Making Pakistan a Tenable State points out. Produced by 17 intellectuals, with Dr Mubashir Hasan as the driving  force, the book describes the state structure as being ‘based on the  concentration of political and administrative power in the steel  frame of the civil services under the protection of the armed forces.  The structure could be defined as feudal-military-bureaucratic.’ The problem is systemic. In a state ruled by ‘a government of the  elites, by the elites, for the elites’ it is inevitable that it is  authoritarian and exploitative. Change can come when there is  mobilisation of the people for change. When WAF mobilises women to  fight against injustices it prepares them to also fight for change.  The need is to empower them and instill confidence in them. Two women I have written about who are fighting for change come from  the poorest of the poor and theirs is not a feminist agenda. They are  fighting to have a roof above their heads. One is the wife of Walidad  from Muhammad Essa Khaskheli who came all the way to Karachi in the  heat of summer to save her goth from being snapped up by a feudal in  the neighbourhood. The other is Parveen whose one-room ‘mansion’ in a katchi abadi of  Clifton is now under threat of demolition. She is resisting the  exploitative system that cannot provide shelter to the poor.  Initially she hesitated — was it ‘proper’ for a woman to protest she  had asked me. When encouraged she decided it was. These are women on  the way to empowerment and that is WAF’s agenda.   2. ‘I’m here to understand what you mean by Taliban’ by Salman Siddiqui Friday, 08 May, 2009 http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/ pakistan/arundhati-roy-sal-02 Is there a threat of Talibanisation engulfing the entire region? I think it has already engulfed our region. I think there’s a need  for a very clear thinking (on this issue of Talibanisation). In  India, there are two kinds of terrorism: one is Islamic terrorism and  the other Maoist terrorism. But this term terrorism, we must ask,  what do they mean by it. In Pakistan, I’m here to understand what they mean by this term. When  we say we must fight the Taliban or must defeat them, what does it  mean? I’m here to understand what you mean when you say Taliban. Do  you mean a militant? Do you mean an ideology? Exactly what is it that  is being fought? That needs to be clarified. I think both needs to be fought. But if it’s an ideology it has to be  fought differently, while if it’s a person with a gun then it has to  be fought differently. We know from the history of the war on terror  that a military strategy is only making matters worse all over the  world. The war on terror has made the world a more dangerous place.  In India, they have been fighting insurgencies military since 1947  and it has become a more dangerous place. Swat and the Taliban boy It is very important for me to understand what exactly is going in  Swat. How did it start? A Taliban boy asked me why women can’t be  like plastic bags and banned. The point is that the plastic bag was  made in a factory but so was the boy. He was made in a factory that  is producing this kind of mind(set). (The question is) who owns that  factory, who funds it? Unless we deal with that factory, dealing with  the boy doesn’t help us. Water is the main issue One danger in Pakistan is that we talk about the threat of Taliban so  much that other important issues lose focus. In my view, the problem  of water in the world will become the most important problem.  I  think big dams are economically unviable, environmentally  unsustainable and politically undemocratic. They are a way of taking  away a river from the poor and giving it to the rich. Like in India,  there’s an issue of SEZs (Special Economic Zones), whereby the land  of the people are given to corporations. But the bigger problem is  that there are making dams and giving water to the industries. This  way the people who live in villages by the streams and rivers have no  water for themselves. So building dams is one of the most  ecologically destructive things that you can do. Fight over Siachen glacier There are thousands of Pakistani and Indian soldiers deployed on the  Siachen glacier. Both of our countries are spending billions of  dollars on high altitude warfare and weapons. The whole of the  Siachen glacier is sort of an icy monument to human folly. Each day  it is being filled with ice axes, old boots, tents and so on.  Meanwhile, that battlefield is melting. Siachen glacier is about half  its size now. It’s not melting because the Indian and Pakistani  soldiers are on it. But it’s because people somewhere on the other  side of the world are leading a good life….in countries that call  themselves democracies that believe in human rights and free speech.  Their economies depend on selling weapons to both of us. Now, when  that glacier melts, there will be floods first, then there will be a  drought and then we’ll have even more reasons to fight. We’ll buy  more weapons from those democracies and in this way human beings will  prove themselves to be the stupidest animals on earth. Money and the Indian elections Whatever system of government you have, whether it is a military  dictatorship or a democracy, and you have that for a long time,  eventually big money manages to subvert it. That has begun to happen  even in a democracy (like India). For example, political parties need  a lot of publicity, but the media is also run by corporate money. If  you look at the big political parties like the Congress and the BJP,  you see how much money is being put out just in their advertising  budgets. Now where does all that come from? RSS and the Indian establishment The RSS has infiltrated everything to a great extent. In India, we  have 120-150 million Muslims and it’s considered a minority…It’s  impossible to not belong to a minority of some sort in India. Caste  or ethnicity or religion or whatever, in some way everyone belongs to  a minority. The fights that many of us are waging against the RSS and  against the BJP are to say that we live in a society which  accommodates everybody. Everybody doesn’t have to love everybody, but  everybody has to be accommodated.  The RSS has infiltrated the  (Indian) army as much as various kinds of Wahabism or other kinds of  religious ideology have infiltrated the ISI or the armed forces in  Pakistan. They are human beings like everyone else and they too get  influenced. Indian media and sensationalizing of news coming out from Pakistan I think the media in both countries play this game. Whenever  something happens here, they hype it up there, while when something  happens there, they hype the news here. We say that we live in times  of an information revolution and free press, but even then nobody  gets to know the complete picture… The Pakistani media is a little different from the Indian media. They  stand on a slightly different foundation. But both share the problem  of a lack of accountability…The trouble in India is that 90 per cent  of their revenue comes from the corporate sector…there’s increasing  privatization and corporatization of governance, education, health,  infrastructure and water management. So in India you see an open  criticism of governance, but very rarely criticism of corporations.  It’s a structural problem. It’s not about good people or bad people.  It’s just that you can’t expect a company to work against itself.  This is a very serious issue which needs to be sorted out. Is the Indian army a sacred cow? The Indian army is quite a sacred cow especially on TV and Bollywood.  But at the same time if you talk to the people in the Indian army,  they say that they feel that the media is very critical of them. I  don’t share that view. I think it is a sacred cow. People are willing  to give them a lot of leeway. Women and their fight for justice When women fight for justice, we must fight for every kind of justice… We must fight for justice for men and justice for children. Because  if you fight for one kind of justice and you tolerate another, then  it’s a pretty hollow fight. You may not be able to fight every  battle, but you should be able to put yourself on the line and say I  believe this. Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From indersalim at gmail.com Fri May 15 08:59:18 2009 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 08:59:18 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Arundhati Roy in Karachi In-Reply-To: <268486.89301.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <268486.89301.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70905142029y422ef33eidb0fd645d7352c9d@mail.gmail.com> Dear All, "You must be either very dumb or very rich if you fail to notice that development stinks", says Gustavo Esteva, a Mexican activist and development critic. And in a article, couple of years back, Arundhati Roy wrote, “ The world is journeying on a terrible path “. I want to know who disagrees with the above two statements. And those who see the fanatic Muslim terrorist as the most poisonous growth in the happiness producing paddy fields of the world , which we urgently need weeding, then I disagree. The charge against Arundhati Roy is that why she chose not to speak the language of US in Pakistan. The boy ( Taliban boy ) should be killed instantly the moment he said that ‘woman’ and ‘plastic bags’ should be banned. That is perhaps, the argument. Now who has put this tag ‘Taliban’ on the forehead of millions of Muslims in the world, who else, but the USA. Are not talking about the masters who play this game? If not why? Is ISI and the Pakistani Establishment the only masters of this boy? What if USA/West is the hidden master of this game, and if that is a possibility, then how the police, who is thief himself will catches the thief? Seeing it from a perspective of treatments on canvas, this handling of Af-Pak issue by USA is as unaesthetic as Iraq war was. This is bound to generate ugliness, but unfortunately, they are probably content with their actions, as usual. Looking seriously at the problem , I think 9/11 was a long term investment for USA/West to harvest dividends. The threat, which is more projected than real, to their securities has already hardened the boarders, and the excuse to inspect/control the weapons in our backyards has become real. They almost say, that we should know what is happening in your homes. The trouble is that our knowledge of their homes does not reveal that hidden agenda. Meanwhile, they will make us forget that it was their willingness in the first place to manufacture these weapons of mass destruction, so, we all will believe that ‘they there’ are right and ‘we here’ are wrong. They design the guns and bombs, they finance it, they distribute it, and they decide how to fix the responsibility. We already know that taking a stand against the boy with disdain for ‘ they there’ is a demand of times, some sort of pragmatism, so we need to say yes, yes, let us kill the boy and thousand and thousand of other like him. We want development, even if it ‘stinks’. This sound called USA/West has already killed half a million in Iraq and we still believe that the enemy of humanity is this terrorist, this terrorist only. We must be naïve to give all the benefit of doubts to them. ( here, them and us is not a black and white contrast, but we need to know how much of fiction is weaved in the us-like as them-like, or even, vice versa. ) Sad, if we think that to kill this boy is the remedy to our ills, then how to let us go ahead with killing the entire Taliabanized society in Pakistan and Afghanistan, which runs in millions. Mr. Jamal, a Pakistani Journalist said that there are half a million hard core units ( Jihadis/individuals ) from Madarasas ( schools ) in Pakistan. First, how to mark one by one, and how to change the programmed grey matter inside the head. As Ashish Nandy rightly pointed out that Modern societies have no previous experience to deal with a person who is willing to die, for a cause, which is not necessarily valid for rest of us. The trouble begins when for example, a Megaphone Company is delighted to sell its product to thousands of mosques in thousands of villages in the these two countries. They are happy to push the sales, but have the so called peace generating companies ever campaigned against the sale of their product to these companies. They should have reminded them that the muezzin does not need scientific means to push religion in the minds of people, but goodwill, trust, compassion and simplicity etc. But they do the reverse, they tell them lies, and try all the tricks to sell their product, and so why it is surprises us if we get a Tabliban from such promotions. This is just a case in the point. The trouble begins here, for example, terrorist uprising in Kashmir created all the violence against the innocent people in the valley. Both Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims suffered terribly, and now, yes, when there is a visible mistrust against them ( terrorists) in the valley, and we feel people are returning back to normal life, how are we going to define ‘peace’ and ‘development’ in real sense of the word. What is normal life? And if it means a return to the decadence and a dumb chase of American style of living, at a terrible cost of our environment and cultural moorings, then what should I say. This I am saying, even if people will forget the core Kashmir issue which is presently unresolved. Just by killing the remaining 3000 odd terrorist in the valley, I don’t know what we, the so called peace loving people, are going to achieve. I never said, that the presence of terrorists in the valley is/was a future catalyst to resolve the issues which I have raised, but their absence too wont change the rules of the game which are nothing ,but what Gustavo’s ‘stink’ generating projects talk about. Will there be a solid peace in the region. I doubt. The propaganda right now is that the terrorist caused the delay in development. Logically, yes, but what development. May be we need to define this animal called development first before we go to define the terrorist. The trouble begins, here again , as Mr. Jamals interviewer pointed out, that the Terrorist can not lead a normal life even after the issue is resolved. So how to treat the situation? So what is the way out ? Love and regards Inder salim On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 6:07 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Arundhati Roy (AR) is in fashion. Rebel in fashion. A rebel with many causes to whine about with no solutions to offer. Since her grip on realities is uncertain, all that she can indulge in is vague intellectualising. That has always been in demand. Greater the obtuseness, easier it is to be highly thought of by unthinking minds. > > Zubeida Mustafa knowingly or unwittingly brings out the vaguness of AR when she says "Roy’s advice to avoid being ‘with us or against us’ has implications she didn’t elucidate". Zubeida goes on to say "In times when action is needed and a position has to be taken — even if verbally — inaction or neutrality unwittingly props up the status quo." > > How shallow minded AR is, gets highlighted in what are ostensibly quotes from her speech(es) at the WAF meet. > > AR: "In India, there are two kinds of terrorism: one is Islamic terrorism and the other Maoist terrorism. But this term terrorism, we must ask, what do they mean by it. " > > KK: Note the word "they". Who is this "they"? Why did AR fail to mention that there is also public discourse on 'Hindu terrorism' and 'Economic terrorism'.  Even on 'State terrorism' to some degree. What is this "they" she is trying to create? Or, is she trying to say there is no 'terrorism' in India and that it is just a figment of the imagination of the "they"? > > AR: "I’m here to understand what you mean when you say Taliban." > > KK : AR also spoke about a Taliban Boy. How did she know the boy was "Taliban" if she is yet to understand what they mean by "Taliban" in Pakistan? She seems to have her own understanding of that term "Taliban". Why doesnt she tell us what she means by "Taliban"? > > AR (On Taliban): "Do you mean a militant? Do you mean an ideology? Exactly what is it that is being fought? That needs to be clarified. > I think both needs to be fought. But if it’s an ideology it has to be fought differently, while if it’s a person with a gun then it has to be fought differently." > > KK: Is AR such an ignorant idiot that she cannot see that militancy finds it's justifications and reassurances from the ideology? What is shameful about AR is that she uses the term 'militant' for those who have indulged in the most heinous of acts as Taliban and that has gravitated many women in Pakistan (under threat to their lives) to step-out and speak-out against the Taliban. > > AR: "In India, they have been fighting insurgencies military since 1947 and it has become a more dangerous place." > > KK: Note the "they" word again. But, what would AR have India do with those that she herself calls "insurgencies"? AR vagueness without any solutions. And, some doublespeake. In India she often hints at support for separatists. Why does she not espouse for India similar attitudes that she advocates in Pakistan where she proclaims "I think both needs to be fought" (whether militant or ideology)? > > AR (on the 'Taliban Boy'): "He was made in a factory that is producing this kind of mind(set). (The question is) who owns that factory, who funds it? Unless we deal with that factory, dealing with the boy doesn’t help us." > > KK: So what should be done about the 'Taliban Boy' while AR indulges in her vaguness of 'who owns the factory, who funds it?'? AR does not want her "Taliban Boy" dealt with. Should we in the meantime invite her 'Taliban Boy' to kill some more; behead some more; rape some more? > > AR: "The RSS has infiltrated the (Indian) army as much as various kinds of Wahabism or other kinds of religious ideology have infiltrated the ISI or the armed forces in Pakistan." > > KK: Note the words "as much". AR seems to know much more about the Indian Army then the rest of India knows for her to bring about an equivalence in the 'religion infiltration' into the Armed Forces of India and Pakistan. More likely is that she knows very little about the anxieties in Pakistan about the extent to which there is widespread suspicion (in Pakistan and elsewhere) about the continued influence exerted within the ISI and the Armed Forces of Pakistan by hardline religious ideology inspite of major efforts (especially by Musharraf) to unshackle them. > > Kshmendra > > --- On Wed, 5/13/09, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > Subject: [Reader-list] Arundhati Roy in Karachi > To: "reader-list at sarai.net list" > Date: Wednesday, May 13, 2009, 8:07 AM > > > Dear All, > > The Delhi based writer Arundhati Roy has recently been in Karachi, > Pakistan at the invitation of civil society organizations and womens > rights groups. Here are two reports from Dawn, a Karachi based daily, > about meetings she attended (with an organization titled 'Womens > Action Forum') and interactions she had. I hope that they will be of > interest to people on the list. > > regards, > > Shuddha > ------------------------------ > 1. > > Arundhati Roy and the WAF > By Zubeida Mustafa > Wednesday, 13 May, 2009 > http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/ > pakistan/11-arundhati-roy-and-the-waf--02 > > ‘WOMEN to reclaim public spaces: a programme of defiance and > resistance.’ That is how the Women’s Action Forum defined the meeting > it held last Friday to mobilise public opinion against extremism. > > Although WAF’s concern to protect the space women have created in the > public mainstream has been on its agenda for some time, this goal has > acquired urgency in the wake of the events in Swat. The Nizam-i-Adl > Regulation in Malakand Division has brought people face to face with > the ugly reality of the Talibanisation phenomenon in the rural > backwaters as well as in modern urban centres. > > The Karachi meeting was well-attended by WAF’s standards. It is not > easy to mobilise women for any cause in this city of multiple > identities. The metropolis has a diversity of populations, cultures, > languages and economic interests posing a challenge to bring women > together on a single platform. Learning from its experience of the > lawyers’ movement that had succeeded in uniting the extreme right and > centrist political parties and the professionals on a single-point > agenda for two years, WAF also decided to make Talibanisation and > women the focal issue. > > That strategy paid off. Women had already been galvanised by the > video showing the flogging of a teenaged girl in Swat that activist > Samar Minallah courageously brought to the world media’s attention, > invoking in the process the wrath of the Taliban whose fatwa declared > her as wajibul qatl. The oppression of women is an issue that cuts > across classes to touch every female raw nerve. Whether it is the > smartly turned-out high-society woman or the working woman who slaves > all day long to feed an army of children and a drug-addict husband or > even the heavily veiled orthodox woman, each type, with few > exceptions, has expressed her horror at the flogging incident. > > Hence on this occasion WAF managed to bring a diverse crowd together > — the activists reaching out to the grassroots such as Amar Sindhu > from Sindh University Hyderabad, Parveen Rahman from the Orangi Pilot > Project and Sadiqa Salahuddin whose Indus Resource Centre runs > schools in the interior of Sindh, as well as the elites sitting side > by side with the three van-loads of women from Neelum Colony who > clean the homes of the rich and will be starting their adult literacy > classes from next week, courtesy Shabina’s Garage School. > > The variety of speakers focusing on the theme of women’s oppression > by the Taliban found a responsive audience. But the question that > made many ponder was: what next? Can this interest be sustained? If > they had not already started probing for answers, the thought- > provoking speech by Arundhati Roy, the renowned Indian writer and > activist, did the trick. Coming from New Delhi on a solidarity > mission to WAF’s meeting. Roy raised four issues: > > • What do we mean by the Taliban and what gave birth to them? > > • Define your own space and do not surrender it. > > • Don’t allow yourself to be forced into making choices of the ‘with > us or against us’ type. > > • Don’t be selective in your injustices. > > These should provide food for thought for those struggling against > oppression. Without being specific, Roy exhorted her audience to look > into the structures and systems that lead to a situation of such > extreme oppression, some of which is rooted in the class conflict. > She believes one has to take a ‘total view’ of the matter, which she > admitted she had come to Pakistan to understand. > > The fact is that we live in a largely grey area where the lines are > not sharply drawn. There is a lot of overlapping between issues > touching gender, class, ethnicity, culture, political power and > economic gains. It is this reality one has to recognise and see how > the contradictions can be addressed. The demand to take sides > unambiguously, expressed so vividly in the days following 9/11 by > George Bush as ‘You are with us or against us,’ can create a dilemma > for people when negotiating these grey areas. > > Roy’s advice to avoid being ‘with us or against us’ has implications > she didn’t elucidate. In times when action is needed and a position > has to be taken — even if verbally — inaction or neutrality > unwittingly props up the status quo. If the status quo has been > created by inimical forces ostensibly now fighting their self-created > Frankenstein, where does one go? > > The practical approach would be to prioritise strategies that can be > adapted to changing circumstances. And what should these be? Here Roy > has a point when she says that one cannot be selective in the > justices one espouses and the injustices one denounces. In this > context Pakistanis find themselves trapped between the devil and the > deep sea. Attempting to rectify a problem here and another there > really doesn’t help because our entire state structure is colonial, > as a booklet titled Making Pakistan a Tenable State points out. > > Produced by 17 intellectuals, with Dr Mubashir Hasan as the driving > force, the book describes the state structure as being ‘based on the > concentration of political and administrative power in the steel > frame of the civil services under the protection of the armed forces. > The structure could be defined as feudal-military-bureaucratic.’ > > The problem is systemic. In a state ruled by ‘a government of the > elites, by the elites, for the elites’ it is inevitable that it is > authoritarian and exploitative. Change can come when there is > mobilisation of the people for change. When WAF mobilises women to > fight against injustices it prepares them to also fight for change. > The need is to empower them and instill confidence in them. > > Two women I have written about who are fighting for change come from > the poorest of the poor and theirs is not a feminist agenda. They are > fighting to have a roof above their heads. One is the wife of Walidad > from Muhammad Essa Khaskheli who came all the way to Karachi in the > heat of summer to save her goth from being snapped up by a feudal in > the neighbourhood. > > The other is Parveen whose one-room ‘mansion’ in a katchi abadi of > Clifton is now under threat of demolition. She is resisting the > exploitative system that cannot provide shelter to the poor. > Initially she hesitated — was it ‘proper’ for a woman to protest she > had asked me. When encouraged she decided it was. These are women on > the way to empowerment and that is WAF’s agenda. > >   2. > > ‘I’m here to understand what you mean by Taliban’ > by Salman Siddiqui > Friday, 08 May, 2009 > http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/ > pakistan/arundhati-roy-sal-02 > > Is there a threat of Talibanisation engulfing the entire region? > > I think it has already engulfed our region. I think there’s a need > for a very clear thinking (on this issue of Talibanisation). In > India, there are two kinds of terrorism: one is Islamic terrorism and > the other Maoist terrorism. But this term terrorism, we must ask, > what do they mean by it. > > In Pakistan, I’m here to understand what they mean by this term. When > we say we must fight the Taliban or must defeat them, what does it > mean? I’m here to understand what you mean when you say Taliban. Do > you mean a militant? Do you mean an ideology? Exactly what is it that > is being fought? That needs to be clarified. > > I think both needs to be fought. But if it’s an ideology it has to be > fought differently, while if it’s a person with a gun then it has to > be fought differently. We know from the history of the war on terror > that a military strategy is only making matters worse all over the > world. The war on terror has made the world a more dangerous place. > In India, they have been fighting insurgencies military since 1947 > and it has become a more dangerous place. > > Swat and the Taliban boy > > It is very important for me to understand what exactly is going in > Swat. How did it start? A Taliban boy asked me why women can’t be > like plastic bags and banned. The point is that the plastic bag was > made in a factory but so was the boy. He was made in a factory that > is producing this kind of mind(set). (The question is) who owns that > factory, who funds it? Unless we deal with that factory, dealing with > the boy doesn’t help us. > > Water is the main issue > > One danger in Pakistan is that we talk about the threat of Taliban so > much that other important issues lose focus. In my view, the problem > of water in the world will become the most important problem.  I > think big dams are economically unviable, environmentally > unsustainable and politically undemocratic. They are a way of taking > away a river from the poor and giving it to the rich. Like in India, > there’s an issue of SEZs (Special Economic Zones), whereby the land > of the people are given to corporations. But the bigger problem is > that there are making dams and giving water to the industries. This > way the people who live in villages by the streams and rivers have no > water for themselves. So building dams is one of the most > ecologically destructive things that you can do. > > Fight over Siachen glacier > > There are thousands of Pakistani and Indian soldiers deployed on the > Siachen glacier. Both of our countries are spending billions of > dollars on high altitude warfare and weapons. The whole of the > Siachen glacier is sort of an icy monument to human folly. Each day > it is being filled with ice axes, old boots, tents and so on. > Meanwhile, that battlefield is melting. Siachen glacier is about half > its size now. It’s not melting because the Indian and Pakistani > soldiers are on it. But it’s because people somewhere on the other > side of the world are leading a good life….in countries that call > themselves democracies that believe in human rights and free speech. > Their economies depend on selling weapons to both of us. Now, when > that glacier melts, there will be floods first, then there will be a > drought and then we’ll have even more reasons to fight. We’ll buy > more weapons from those democracies and in this way human beings will > prove themselves to be the stupidest animals on earth. > > Money and the Indian elections > > Whatever system of government you have, whether it is a military > dictatorship or a democracy, and you have that for a long time, > eventually big money manages to subvert it. That has begun to happen > even in a democracy (like India). For example, political parties need > a lot of publicity, but the media is also run by corporate money. If > you look at the big political parties like the Congress and the BJP, > you see how much money is being put out just in their advertising > budgets. Now where does all that come from? > > RSS and the Indian establishment > > The RSS has infiltrated everything to a great extent. In India, we > have 120-150 million Muslims and it’s considered a minority…It’s > impossible to not belong to a minority of some sort in India. Caste > or ethnicity or religion or whatever, in some way everyone belongs to > a minority. The fights that many of us are waging against the RSS and > against the BJP are to say that we live in a society which > accommodates everybody. Everybody doesn’t have to love everybody, but > everybody has to be accommodated.  The RSS has infiltrated the > (Indian) army as much as various kinds of Wahabism or other kinds of > religious ideology have infiltrated the ISI or the armed forces in > Pakistan. They are human beings like everyone else and they too get > influenced. > > Indian media and sensationalizing of news coming out from Pakistan > > I think the media in both countries play this game. Whenever > something happens here, they hype it up there, while when something > happens there, they hype the news here. We say that we live in times > of an information revolution and free press, but even then nobody > gets to know the complete picture… > > The Pakistani media is a little different from the Indian media. They > stand on a slightly different foundation. But both share the problem > of a lack of accountability…The trouble in India is that 90 per cent > of their revenue comes from the corporate sector…there’s increasing > privatization and corporatization of governance, education, health, > infrastructure and water management. So in India you see an open > criticism of governance, but very rarely criticism of corporations. > It’s a structural problem. It’s not about good people or bad people. > It’s just that you can’t expect a company to work against itself. > This is a very serious issue which needs to be sorted out. > > Is the Indian army a sacred cow? > > The Indian army is quite a sacred cow especially on TV and Bollywood. > But at the same time if you talk to the people in the Indian army, > they say that they feel that the media is very critical of them. I > don’t share that view. I think it is a sacred cow. People are willing > to give them a lot of leeway. > > Women and their fight for justice > > When women fight for justice, we must fight for every kind of justice… > We must fight for justice for men and justice for children. Because > if you fight for one kind of justice and you tolerate another, then > it’s a pretty hollow fight. You may not be able to fight every > battle, but you should be able to put yourself on the line and say I > believe this. > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From senpriya at gmail.com Fri May 15 09:22:27 2009 From: senpriya at gmail.com (Priya Sen) Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 09:22:27 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Mridula Koshy's book launch - Wed May 20 Message-ID: <8c9003440905142052s53c3b624i33dafd82aa05e90a@mail.gmail.com> >From Mridula Koshy: If It Is Sweet A collection of short stories by Mridula Koshy Rana Dasgupta will be in conversation with the author. Date: Wed May 20 Time: 7 p.m. Venue: Agni at The Park, 15 Parliment St New Delhi, 110001 Do join us for cocktails after the event RSVP Priyanka Chowdhury Head of Publicity Westland Ltd/Tranquebar Press. Tel. 9899996406 E-mail: priyachow1412 at gmail.com -- Priya Sen Sarai-CSDS 29, Rajpur Road, Civil Lines Delhi - 110054 priya at sarai.net From peter.ksmtf at gmail.com Fri May 15 12:02:53 2009 From: peter.ksmtf at gmail.com (T Peter) Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 12:02:53 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Plea to release Binayak Sen Message-ID: <3457ce860905142332p5767149fr8a90383934ced02e@mail.gmail.com> *Express News Service 15 May 2009 01:24:00 AM IST* Plea to release Binayak Sen THIRUVANANTHAPURAM: It was an unusual scene in front of the Secretariat on Thursday morning. Emotions were running high. Hundreds of humanists who had lined up for signing a mass memorandum seeking the release of Dr Binayak Sen were seen venting their anger and helplessness through curses. The protest organised by a number of human rights organisations drew a fairly big crowd to the Statue junction. The signature campaign was organised to mark the second anniversary of Binayak Sen’s arrest. Sen, a practitioner of community medicine and an activist among tribals, was arrested by the Chattisgarh government on May 14, 2007. At the time of his arrest, Sen was the national vice- president and Chattisgarh state president of the People’s Union for Civil Liberties. He has been jailed since then using the provisions of the draconian Chattisgarh Special Securities Act (CSSA). The Chattisgarh administration alleges that Sen was aiding Maoists and Naxals. But, Sen’s friends and relatives say that the only crime he had committed was visiting Raipur Central prison and treating an aged prisoner there. ``Though the treatment was with the permission of jail authorities, they later found fault with it as the patient had some Naxal connections,’’ said Sen’s 80-year-old mother Anasooya in an article last year. The bail application of Binayak Sen was dismissed by the Supreme Court. Though there were demands from several quarters, including a mass petition by Nobel laureates, the Union Government is playing a hide-and-seek game regarding Sen’s release. The fact that Sen is a recipient of the prestigious Jonathan Mann award has also been ignored by the government. ``Binayak Sen’s imprisonment is a shame on Indian Democracy,’’ said Dr P.K.R. Warrier while inaugurating the signature campaign organised by various human rights organisations in the city on Thursday. Warrier said there was no logic in the decision of the Chattisgarh government to arrest Sen, who had been practising community medicine. Freedom fighter K.E. Mammen, veteran journalist B.R.P. Bhaskar and human rights activists R. Ajayan, T. Peter and Sunil Hassan led the campaign. The campaign was jointly organised by the Ethical Doctors’ Forum, Students’ Islamic Organisation of India, Swathanthra Matsya Thozhilali Federation and PUCL. From rahul_capri at yahoo.com Fri May 15 16:01:20 2009 From: rahul_capri at yahoo.com (Rahul Asthana) Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 03:31:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Arundhati Roy in Karachi Message-ID: <574567.38552.qm@web53612.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Inder Salim, "The charge against Arundhati Roy is that why she chose not to speak the language of US in Pakistan." Who made this charge? "The boy ( Taliban boy > ) should be > killed instantly the moment he said that ‘woman’ and > ‘plastic bags’ > should be banned. That is perhaps, the argument." Who made this argument? Thanks Rahul --- On Fri, 5/15/09, Inder Salim wrote: > From: Inder Salim > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Arundhati Roy in Karachi > To: "reader-list" > Date: Friday, May 15, 2009, 8:59 AM > Dear All, > > "You must be either very dumb or very rich if you fail > to notice that development stinks", says Gustavo Esteva, a > Mexican > activist and development critic. And in a article, couple > of years > back, Arundhati Roy wrote, “ The world is journeying on a > terrible > path “. > > I want to know who disagrees with the above two statements. > And those > who see the fanatic Muslim terrorist as the most poisonous > growth in > the happiness producing paddy fields of the world , which > we urgently > need  weeding,  then I disagree. > > The charge against Arundhati Roy is that why she chose not > to speak > the language of US in Pakistan.  The boy ( Taliban boy > ) should be > killed instantly the moment he said that ‘woman’ and > ‘plastic bags’ > should be banned. That is perhaps, the argument. > > Now who has put this tag ‘Taliban’ on the forehead of > millions of > Muslims in the world, who else, but the USA. Are not > talking about the > masters who play this game? If not why? > > Is ISI and the Pakistani Establishment the only masters of > this boy? > What if USA/West is the hidden master of this game, and if > that is a > possibility, then how the police, who is thief himself will > catches > the thief?  Seeing it from a perspective of treatments > on canvas, this > handling of Af-Pak issue by USA is as unaesthetic as Iraq > war was. > This is bound to generate ugliness, but unfortunately, they > are > probably content with their actions, as usual. > >   Looking seriously at the problem ,  I think > 9/11 was a long term > investment for USA/West to harvest dividends. The threat, > which is > more projected than real,  to their securities has > already hardened > the boarders, and the  excuse to inspect/control the > weapons in our > backyards has become real. They almost say, that we should > know what > is  happening in your homes. The trouble is that our > knowledge of > their homes does not reveal that hidden agenda. > > Meanwhile, they will make us forget that it was their > willingness in > the first place to manufacture these weapons of mass > destruction, so, > we all will believe that ‘they there’ are right  > and ‘we here’ are > wrong. They design the guns and bombs, they finance it, > they > distribute it, and they decide how to fix the > responsibility. > > We already know that taking a stand against the boy with > disdain for ‘ > they there’ is a demand of times, some sort of > pragmatism, so we need > to say yes, yes, let us kill the boy and thousand and > thousand of > other like him. We want development, even if it > ‘stinks’. > > This sound called USA/West has already killed half a > million in Iraq > and we still believe that the enemy of humanity is this > terrorist, > this terrorist only.  We must be naïve to give all > the benefit of > doubts to them. ( here, them and us is not a black and > white contrast, > but we need to know how much of fiction is weaved in the > us-like as > them-like, or even, vice versa. ) > > Sad, if we think that to kill this boy is the remedy to our > ills, then > how to let us go ahead with killing the entire > Taliabanized  society > in Pakistan and Afghanistan, which runs in millions.  > Mr. Jamal, a > Pakistani Journalist said that there are half a million > hard core > units ( Jihadis/individuals ) from Madarasas ( schools ) in > Pakistan. > First, how to mark one by one, and how to change the > programmed grey > matter inside the head. As Ashish Nandy rightly pointed out > that > Modern societies have no previous  experience to deal > with a person > who is willing to die, for a cause, which is not > necessarily valid for > rest of us. > > The trouble begins when for example, a Megaphone Company is > delighted > to sell its product to thousands of mosques in thousands of > villages > in the these two countries. They are happy to push the > sales, but have > the so called peace generating  companies ever > campaigned against the > sale of their product to these companies. They should have > reminded > them that the muezzin does not need scientific means to > push religion > in the minds of people, but goodwill, trust, compassion and > simplicity > etc. But they do the reverse, they tell them lies, and try > all the > tricks to sell their product, and so  why it is > surprises us if we get > a Tabliban from such promotions. This is just a case in the > point. > > The trouble begins here, for example, terrorist uprising in > Kashmir > created all the violence against the innocent people in the > valley. > Both Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims suffered terribly, and now, > yes, when > there is a visible mistrust against them (  > terrorists) in the valley, > and we feel people are returning back to normal life, how > are we going > to define ‘peace’ and ‘development’ in real sense > of the word. What is > normal life? And if it means a return to the decadence and > a dumb > chase of American style of living, at a terrible cost of > our > environment and cultural moorings, then what should I say. > > This I am saying, even if people will forget  the core > Kashmir issue > which is presently unresolved. > > Just by killing the  remaining 3000 odd terrorist in > the valley, I > don’t know what we, the so called peace loving people, > are going to > achieve. > > I never said, that the presence of terrorists in the > valley is/was a > future catalyst to resolve the issues which I have raised, > but their > absence too wont change the rules of the game which are > nothing ,but > what Gustavo’s ‘stink’ generating projects talk > about. > > Will  there be a solid peace in the region. I doubt. > The propaganda > right now is that the  terrorist caused the delay in > development. > Logically, yes, but what development. > > May be we need to define this animal called development > first before > we go to define the terrorist. > > The trouble begins, here again , as Mr. Jamals interviewer > pointed > out, that the Terrorist can not lead a normal life even > after the > issue is resolved. So how to treat the situation? > > So what is the way out ? > > Love and regards > Inder salim > > > > > > > > > On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 6:07 PM, Kshmendra Kaul > wrote: > > Arundhati Roy (AR) is in fashion. Rebel in fashion. A > rebel with many causes to whine about with no solutions to > offer. Since her grip on realities is uncertain, all > that she can indulge in is vague intellectualising. That > has always been in demand. Greater the obtuseness, easier > it is to be highly thought of by unthinking minds. > > > > Zubeida Mustafa knowingly or unwittingly brings out > the vaguness of AR when she says "Roy’s advice to avoid > being ‘with us or against us’ has implications she > didn’t elucidate". Zubeida goes on to say "In times when > action is needed and a position has to be taken — even if > verbally — inaction or neutrality unwittingly props up the > status quo." > > > > How shallow minded AR is, gets highlighted in what > are ostensibly quotes from her speech(es) at the WAF meet. > > > > AR: "In India, there are two kinds of terrorism: one > is Islamic terrorism and the other Maoist terrorism. But > this term terrorism, we must ask, what do they mean by > it. " > > > > KK: Note the word "they". Who is this "they"? Why did > AR fail to mention that there is also public discourse on > 'Hindu terrorism' and 'Economic terrorism'.  Even on > 'State terrorism' to some degree. What is this "they" she is > trying to create? Or, is she trying to say there is no > 'terrorism' in India and that it is just a figment of the > imagination of the "they"? > > > > AR: "I’m here to understand what you mean when you > say Taliban." > > > > KK : AR also spoke about a Taliban Boy. How did she > know the boy was "Taliban" if she is yet to understand what > they mean by "Taliban" in Pakistan? She seems to have her > own understanding of that term "Taliban". Why doesnt she > tell us what she means by "Taliban"? > > > > AR (On Taliban): "Do you mean a militant? Do you mean > an ideology? Exactly what is it that is being fought? That > needs to be clarified. > > I think both needs to be fought. But if it’s an > ideology it has to be fought differently, while if it’s a > person with a gun then it has to be fought differently." > > > > KK: Is AR such an ignorant idiot that she cannot see > that militancy finds it's justifications and reassurances > from the ideology? What is shameful about AR is that > she uses the term 'militant' for those who have indulged in > the most heinous of acts as Taliban and that has gravitated > many women in Pakistan (under threat to their lives) to > step-out and speak-out against the Taliban. > > > > AR: "In India, they have been fighting insurgencies > military since 1947 and it has become a more dangerous > place." > > > > KK: Note the "they" word again. But, what would AR > have India do with those that she herself calls > "insurgencies"? AR vagueness without any solutions. And, > some doublespeake. In India she often hints at support for > separatists. Why does she not espouse for India similar > attitudes that she advocates in Pakistan where she proclaims > "I think both needs to be fought" (whether militant or > ideology)? > > > > AR (on the 'Taliban Boy'): "He was made in a factory > that is producing this kind of mind(set). (The question is) > who owns that factory, who funds it? Unless we deal with > that factory, dealing with the boy doesn’t help us." > > > > KK: So what should be done about the 'Taliban > Boy' while AR indulges in her vaguness of 'who owns the > factory, who funds it?'? AR does not want her "Taliban Boy" > dealt with. Should we in the meantime invite her 'Taliban > Boy' to kill some more; behead some more; rape some more? > > > > AR: "The RSS has infiltrated the (Indian) army as much > as various kinds of Wahabism or other kinds of religious > ideology have infiltrated the ISI or the armed forces in > Pakistan." > > > > KK: Note the words "as much". AR seems to know much > more about the Indian Army then the rest of India knows for > her to bring about an equivalence in the 'religion > infiltration' into the Armed Forces of India and Pakistan. > More likely is that she knows very little about the > anxieties in Pakistan about the extent to which there is > widespread suspicion (in Pakistan and elsewhere) about the > continued influence exerted within the ISI and the Armed > Forces of Pakistan by hardline religious ideology inspite > of major efforts (especially by Musharraf) to unshackle > them. > > > > Kshmendra > > > > --- On Wed, 5/13/09, Shuddhabrata Sengupta > wrote: > > > > > > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > Subject: [Reader-list] Arundhati Roy in Karachi > > To: "reader-list at sarai.net > list" > > Date: Wednesday, May 13, 2009, 8:07 AM > > > > > > Dear All, > > > > The Delhi based writer Arundhati Roy has recently been > in Karachi, > > Pakistan at the invitation of civil society > organizations and womens > > rights groups. Here are two reports from Dawn, a > Karachi based daily, > > about meetings she attended (with an organization > titled 'Womens > > Action Forum') and interactions she had. I hope that > they will be of > > interest to people on the list. > > > > regards, > > > > Shuddha > > ------------------------------ > > 1. > > > > Arundhati Roy and the WAF > > By Zubeida Mustafa > > Wednesday, 13 May, 2009 > > http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/ > > pakistan/11-arundhati-roy-and-the-waf--02 > > > > ‘WOMEN to reclaim public spaces: a programme of > defiance and > > resistance.’ That is how the Women’s Action Forum > defined the meeting > > it held last Friday to mobilise public opinion against > extremism. > > > > Although WAF’s concern to protect the space women > have created in the > > public mainstream has been on its agenda for some > time, this goal has > > acquired urgency in the wake of the events in Swat. > The Nizam-i-Adl > > Regulation in Malakand Division has brought people > face to face with > > the ugly reality of the Talibanisation phenomenon in > the rural > > backwaters as well as in modern urban centres. > > > > The Karachi meeting was well-attended by WAF’s > standards. It is not > > easy to mobilise women for any cause in this city of > multiple > > identities. The metropolis has a diversity of > populations, cultures, > > languages and economic interests posing a challenge to > bring women > > together on a single platform. Learning from its > experience of the > > lawyers’ movement that had succeeded in uniting the > extreme right and > > centrist political parties and the professionals on a > single-point > > agenda for two years, WAF also decided to make > Talibanisation and > > women the focal issue. > > > > That strategy paid off. Women had already been > galvanised by the > > video showing the flogging of a teenaged girl in Swat > that activist > > Samar Minallah courageously brought to the world > media’s attention, > > invoking in the process the wrath of the Taliban whose > fatwa declared > > her as wajibul qatl. The oppression of women is an > issue that cuts > > across classes to touch every female raw nerve. > Whether it is the > > smartly turned-out high-society woman or the working > woman who slaves > > all day long to feed an army of children and a > drug-addict husband or > > even the heavily veiled orthodox woman, each type, > with few > > exceptions, has expressed her horror at the flogging > incident. > > > > Hence on this occasion WAF managed to bring a diverse > crowd together > > — the activists reaching out to the grassroots such > as Amar Sindhu > > from Sindh University Hyderabad, Parveen Rahman from > the Orangi Pilot > > Project and Sadiqa Salahuddin whose Indus Resource > Centre runs > > schools in the interior of Sindh, as well as the > elites sitting side > > by side with the three van-loads of women from Neelum > Colony who > > clean the homes of the rich and will be starting their > adult literacy > > classes from next week, courtesy Shabina’s Garage > School. > > > > The variety of speakers focusing on the theme of > women’s oppression > > by the Taliban found a responsive audience. But the > question that > > made many ponder was: what next? Can this interest be > sustained? If > > they had not already started probing for answers, the > thought- > > provoking speech by Arundhati Roy, the renowned Indian > writer and > > activist, did the trick. Coming from New Delhi on a > solidarity > > mission to WAF’s meeting. Roy raised four issues: > > > > • What do we mean by the Taliban and what gave birth > to them? > > > > • Define your own space and do not surrender it. > > > > • Don’t allow yourself to be forced into making > choices of the ‘with > > us or against us’ type. > > > > • Don’t be selective in your injustices. > > > > These should provide food for thought for those > struggling against > > oppression. Without being specific, Roy exhorted her > audience to look > > into the structures and systems that lead to a > situation of such > > extreme oppression, some of which is rooted in the > class conflict. > > She believes one has to take a ‘total view’ of the > matter, which she > > admitted she had come to Pakistan to understand. > > > > The fact is that we live in a largely grey area where > the lines are > > not sharply drawn. There is a lot of overlapping > between issues > > touching gender, class, ethnicity, culture, political > power and > > economic gains. It is this reality one has to > recognise and see how > > the contradictions can be addressed. The demand to > take sides > > unambiguously, expressed so vividly in the days > following 9/11 by > > George Bush as ‘You are with us or against us,’ > can create a dilemma > > for people when negotiating these grey areas. > > > > Roy’s advice to avoid being ‘with us or against > us’ has implications > > she didn’t elucidate. In times when action is needed > and a position > > has to be taken — even if verbally — inaction or > neutrality > > unwittingly props up the status quo. If the status quo > has been > > created by inimical forces ostensibly now fighting > their self-created > > Frankenstein, where does one go? > > > > The practical approach would be to prioritise > strategies that can be > > adapted to changing circumstances. And what should > these be? Here Roy > > has a point when she says that one cannot be selective > in the > > justices one espouses and the injustices one > denounces. In this > > context Pakistanis find themselves trapped between the > devil and the > > deep sea. Attempting to rectify a problem here and > another there > > really doesn’t help because our entire state > structure is colonial, > > as a booklet titled Making Pakistan a Tenable State > points out. > > > > Produced by 17 intellectuals, with Dr Mubashir Hasan > as the driving > > force, the book describes the state structure as being > ‘based on the > > concentration of political and administrative power in > the steel > > frame of the civil services under the protection of > the armed forces. > > The structure could be defined as > feudal-military-bureaucratic.’ > > > > The problem is systemic. In a state ruled by ‘a > government of the > > elites, by the elites, for the elites’ it is > inevitable that it is > > authoritarian and exploitative. Change can come when > there is > > mobilisation of the people for change. When WAF > mobilises women to > > fight against injustices it prepares them to also > fight for change. > > The need is to empower them and instill confidence in > them. > > > > Two women I have written about who are fighting for > change come from > > the poorest of the poor and theirs is not a feminist > agenda. They are > > fighting to have a roof above their heads. One is the > wife of Walidad > > from Muhammad Essa Khaskheli who came all the way to > Karachi in the > > heat of summer to save her goth from being snapped up > by a feudal in > > the neighbourhood. > > > > The other is Parveen whose one-room ‘mansion’ in a > katchi abadi of > > Clifton is now under threat of demolition. She is > resisting the > > exploitative system that cannot provide shelter to the > poor. > > Initially she hesitated — was it ‘proper’ for a > woman to protest she > > had asked me. When encouraged she decided it was. > These are women on > > the way to empowerment and that is WAF’s agenda. > > > >   2. > > > > ‘I’m here to understand what you mean by > Taliban’ > > by Salman Siddiqui > > Friday, 08 May, 2009 > > http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/ > > pakistan/arundhati-roy-sal-02 > > > > Is there a threat of Talibanisation engulfing the > entire region? > > > > I think it has already engulfed our region. I think > there’s a need > > for a very clear thinking (on this issue of > Talibanisation). In > > India, there are two kinds of terrorism: one is > Islamic terrorism and > > the other Maoist terrorism. But this term terrorism, > we must ask, > > what do they mean by it. > > > > In Pakistan, I’m here to understand what they mean > by this term. When > > we say we must fight the Taliban or must defeat them, > what does it > > mean? I’m here to understand what you mean when you > say Taliban. Do > > you mean a militant? Do you mean an ideology? Exactly > what is it that > > is being fought? That needs to be clarified. > > > > I think both needs to be fought. But if it’s an > ideology it has to be > > fought differently, while if it’s a person with a > gun then it has to > > be fought differently. We know from the history of the > war on terror > > that a military strategy is only making matters worse > all over the > > world. The war on terror has made the world a more > dangerous place. > > In India, they have been fighting insurgencies > military since 1947 > > and it has become a more dangerous place. > > > > Swat and the Taliban boy > > > > It is very important for me to understand what exactly > is going in > > Swat. How did it start? A Taliban boy asked me why > women can’t be > > like plastic bags and banned. The point is that the > plastic bag was > > made in a factory but so was the boy. He was made in a > factory that > > is producing this kind of mind(set). (The question is) > who owns that > > factory, who funds it? Unless we deal with that > factory, dealing with > > the boy doesn’t help us. > > > > Water is the main issue > > > > One danger in Pakistan is that we talk about the > threat of Taliban so > > much that other important issues lose focus. In my > view, the problem > > of water in the world will become the most important > problem.  I > > think big dams are economically unviable, > environmentally > > unsustainable and politically undemocratic. They are a > way of taking > > away a river from the poor and giving it to the rich. > Like in India, > > there’s an issue of SEZs (Special Economic Zones), > whereby the land > > of the people are given to corporations. But the > bigger problem is > > that there are making dams and giving water to the > industries. This > > way the people who live in villages by the streams and > rivers have no > > water for themselves. So building dams is one of the > most > > ecologically destructive things that you can do. > > > > Fight over Siachen glacier > > > > There are thousands of Pakistani and Indian soldiers > deployed on the > > Siachen glacier. Both of our countries are spending > billions of > > dollars on high altitude warfare and weapons. The > whole of the > > Siachen glacier is sort of an icy monument to human > folly. Each day > > it is being filled with ice axes, old boots, tents and > so on. > > Meanwhile, that battlefield is melting. Siachen > glacier is about half > > its size now. It’s not melting because the Indian > and Pakistani > > soldiers are on it. But it’s because people > somewhere on the other > > side of the world are leading a good life….in > countries that call > > themselves democracies that believe in human rights > and free speech. > > Their economies depend on selling weapons to both of > us. Now, when > > that glacier melts, there will be floods first, then > there will be a > > drought and then we’ll have even more reasons to > fight. We’ll buy > > more weapons from those democracies and in this way > human beings will > > prove themselves to be the stupidest animals on > earth. > > > > Money and the Indian elections > > > > Whatever system of government you have, whether it is > a military > > dictatorship or a democracy, and you have that for a > long time, > > eventually big money manages to subvert it. That has > begun to happen > > even in a democracy (like India). For example, > political parties need > > a lot of publicity, but the media is also run by > corporate money. If > > you look at the big political parties like the > Congress and the BJP, > > you see how much money is being put out just in their > advertising > > budgets. Now where does all that come from? > > > > RSS and the Indian establishment > > > > The RSS has infiltrated everything to a great extent. > In India, we > > have 120-150 million Muslims and it’s considered a > minority…It’s > > impossible to not belong to a minority of some sort in > India. Caste > > or ethnicity or religion or whatever, in some way > everyone belongs to > > a minority. The fights that many of us are waging > against the RSS and > > against the BJP are to say that we live in a society > which > > accommodates everybody. Everybody doesn’t have to > love everybody, but > > everybody has to be accommodated.  The RSS has > infiltrated the > > (Indian) army as much as various kinds of Wahabism or > other kinds of > > religious ideology have infiltrated the ISI or the > armed forces in > > Pakistan. They are human beings like everyone else and > they too get > > influenced. > > > > Indian media and sensationalizing of news coming out > from Pakistan > > > > I think the media in both countries play this game. > Whenever > > something happens here, they hype it up there, while > when something > > happens there, they hype the news here. We say that we > live in times > > of an information revolution and free press, but even > then nobody > > gets to know the complete picture… > > > > The Pakistani media is a little different from the > Indian media. They > > stand on a slightly different foundation. But both > share the problem > > of a lack of accountability…The trouble in India is > that 90 per cent > > of their revenue comes from the corporate > sector…there’s increasing > > privatization and corporatization of governance, > education, health, > > infrastructure and water management. So in India you > see an open > > criticism of governance, but very rarely criticism of > corporations. > > It’s a structural problem. It’s not about good > people or bad people. > > It’s just that you can’t expect a company to work > against itself. > > This is a very serious issue which needs to be sorted > out. > > > > Is the Indian army a sacred cow? > > > > The Indian army is quite a sacred cow especially on TV > and Bollywood. > > But at the same time if you talk to the people in the > Indian army, > > they say that they feel that the media is very > critical of them. I > > don’t share that view. I think it is a sacred cow. > People are willing > > to give them a lot of leeway. > > > > Women and their fight for justice > > > > When women fight for justice, we must fight for every > kind of justice… > > We must fight for justice for men and justice for > children. Because > > if you fight for one kind of justice and you tolerate > another, then > > it’s a pretty hollow fight. You may not be able to > fight every > > battle, but you should be able to put yourself on the > line and say I > > believe this. > > > > > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > > Raqs Media Collective > > shuddha at sarai.net > > www.sarai.net > > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From indersalim at gmail.com Fri May 15 18:11:39 2009 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 18:11:39 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Arundhati Roy in Karachi In-Reply-To: <574567.38552.qm@web53612.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <574567.38552.qm@web53612.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70905150541n2abffbfag702f18eddb063c98@mail.gmail.com> Dear Rahul i think the question is already answered by Mr. K K i only reflected love is On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 4:01 PM, Rahul Asthana wrote: > > Inder Salim, > > "The charge against Arundhati Roy is that why she chose not to speak > the language of US in Pakistan." > > Who made this charge? > > "The boy ( Taliban boy >> ) should be >> killed instantly the moment he said that ‘woman’ and >> ‘plastic bags’ >> should be banned. That is perhaps, the argument." > > Who made this argument? > > Thanks > Rahul > > > --- On Fri, 5/15/09, Inder Salim wrote: > >> From: Inder Salim >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Arundhati Roy in Karachi >> To: "reader-list" >> Date: Friday, May 15, 2009, 8:59 AM >> Dear All, >> >> "You must be either very dumb or very rich if you fail >> to notice that development stinks", says Gustavo Esteva, a >> Mexican >> activist and development critic. And in a article, couple >> of years >> back, Arundhati Roy wrote, “ The world is journeying on a >> terrible >> path “. >> >> I want to know who disagrees with the above two statements. >> And those >> who see the fanatic Muslim terrorist as the most poisonous >> growth in >> the happiness producing paddy fields of the world , which >> we urgently >> need  weeding,  then I disagree. >> >> The charge against Arundhati Roy is that why she chose not >> to speak >> the language of US in Pakistan.  The boy ( Taliban boy >> ) should be >> killed instantly the moment he said that ‘woman’ and >> ‘plastic bags’ >> should be banned. That is perhaps, the argument. >> >> Now who has put this tag ‘Taliban’ on the forehead of >> millions of >> Muslims in the world, who else, but the USA. Are not >> talking about the >> masters who play this game? If not why? >> >>  Is ISI and the Pakistani Establishment the only masters of >> this boy? >> What if USA/West is the hidden master of this game, and if >> that is a >> possibility, then how the police, who is thief himself will >> catches >> the thief?  Seeing it from a perspective of treatments >> on canvas, this >> handling of Af-Pak issue by USA is as unaesthetic as Iraq >> war was. >> This is bound to generate ugliness, but unfortunately, they >> are >> probably content with their actions, as usual. >> >>   Looking seriously at the problem ,  I think >> 9/11 was a long term >> investment for USA/West to harvest dividends. The threat, >> which is >> more projected than real,  to their securities has >> already hardened >> the boarders, and the  excuse to inspect/control the >> weapons in our >> backyards has become real. They almost say, that we should >> know what >> is  happening in your homes. The trouble is that our >> knowledge of >> their homes does not reveal that hidden agenda. >> >> Meanwhile, they will make us forget that it was their >> willingness in >> the first place to manufacture these weapons of mass >> destruction, so, >> we all will believe that ‘they there’ are right >> and ‘we here’ are >> wrong. They design the guns and bombs, they finance it, >> they >> distribute it, and they decide how to fix the >> responsibility. >> >> We already know that taking a stand against the boy with >> disdain for ‘ >> they there’ is a demand of times, some sort of >> pragmatism, so we need >> to say yes, yes, let us kill the boy and thousand and >> thousand of >> other like him. We want development, even if it >> ‘stinks’. >> >> This sound called USA/West has already killed half a >> million in Iraq >> and we still believe that the enemy of humanity is this >> terrorist, >> this terrorist only.  We must be naïve to give all >> the benefit of >> doubts to them. ( here, them and us is not a black and >> white contrast, >> but we need to know how much of fiction is weaved in the >> us-like as >> them-like, or even, vice versa. ) >> >> Sad, if we think that to kill this boy is the remedy to our >> ills, then >> how to let us go ahead with killing the entire >> Taliabanized  society >> in Pakistan and Afghanistan, which runs in millions. >> Mr. Jamal, a >> Pakistani Journalist said that there are half a million >> hard core >> units ( Jihadis/individuals ) from Madarasas ( schools ) in >> Pakistan. >> First, how to mark one by one, and how to change the >> programmed grey >> matter inside the head. As Ashish Nandy rightly pointed out >> that >> Modern societies have no previous  experience to deal >> with a person >> who is willing to die, for a cause, which is not >> necessarily valid for >> rest of us. >> >> The trouble begins when for example, a Megaphone Company is >> delighted >> to sell its product to thousands of mosques in thousands of >> villages >> in the these two countries. They are happy to push the >> sales, but have >> the so called peace generating  companies ever >> campaigned against the >> sale of their product to these companies. They should have >> reminded >> them that the muezzin does not need scientific means to >> push religion >> in the minds of people, but goodwill, trust, compassion and >> simplicity >> etc. But they do the reverse, they tell them lies, and try >> all the >> tricks to sell their product, and so  why it is >> surprises us if we get >> a Tabliban from such promotions. This is just a case in the >> point. >> >> The trouble begins here, for example, terrorist uprising in >> Kashmir >> created all the violence against the innocent people in the >> valley. >> Both Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims suffered terribly, and now, >> yes, when >> there is a visible mistrust against them ( >> terrorists) in the valley, >> and we feel people are returning back to normal life, how >> are we going >> to define ‘peace’ and ‘development’ in real sense >> of the word. What is >> normal life? And if it means a return to the decadence and >> a dumb >> chase of American style of living, at a terrible cost of >> our >> environment and cultural moorings, then what should I say. >> >> This I am saying, even if people will forget  the core >> Kashmir issue >> which is presently unresolved. >> >> Just by killing the  remaining 3000 odd terrorist in >> the valley, I >> don’t know what we, the so called peace loving people, >> are going to >> achieve. >> >>  I never said, that the presence of terrorists in the >> valley is/was a >> future catalyst to resolve the issues which I have raised, >> but their >> absence too wont change the rules of the game which are >> nothing ,but >> what Gustavo’s ‘stink’ generating projects talk >> about. >> >> Will  there be a solid peace in the region. I doubt. >> The propaganda >> right now is that the  terrorist caused the delay in >> development. >> Logically, yes, but what development. >> >> May be we need to define this animal called development >> first before >> we go to define the terrorist. >> >> The trouble begins, here again , as Mr. Jamals interviewer >> pointed >> out, that the Terrorist can not lead a normal life even >> after the >> issue is resolved. So how to treat the situation? >> >> So what is the way out ? >> >> Love and regards >> Inder salim >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 6:07 PM, Kshmendra Kaul >> wrote: >> > Arundhati Roy (AR) is in fashion. Rebel in fashion. A >> rebel with many causes to whine about with no solutions to >> offer. Since her grip on realities is uncertain, all >> that she can indulge in is vague intellectualising. That >> has always been in demand. Greater the obtuseness, easier >> it is to be highly thought of by unthinking minds. >> > >> > Zubeida Mustafa knowingly or unwittingly brings out >> the vaguness of AR when she says "Roy’s advice to avoid >> being ‘with us or against us’ has implications she >> didn’t elucidate". Zubeida goes on to say "In times when >> action is needed and a position has to be taken — even if >> verbally — inaction or neutrality unwittingly props up the >> status quo." >> > >> > How shallow minded AR is, gets highlighted in what >> are ostensibly quotes from her speech(es) at the WAF meet. >> > >> > AR: "In India, there are two kinds of terrorism: one >> is Islamic terrorism and the other Maoist terrorism. But >> this term terrorism, we must ask, what do they mean by >> it. " >> > >> > KK: Note the word "they". Who is this "they"? Why did >> AR fail to mention that there is also public discourse on >> 'Hindu terrorism' and 'Economic terrorism'.  Even on >> 'State terrorism' to some degree. What is this "they" she is >> trying to create? Or, is she trying to say there is no >> 'terrorism' in India and that it is just a figment of the >> imagination of the "they"? >> > >> > AR: "I’m here to understand what you mean when you >> say Taliban." >> > >> > KK : AR also spoke about a Taliban Boy. How did she >> know the boy was "Taliban" if she is yet to understand what >> they mean by "Taliban" in Pakistan? She seems to have her >> own understanding of that term "Taliban". Why doesnt she >> tell us what she means by "Taliban"? >> > >> > AR (On Taliban): "Do you mean a militant? Do you mean >> an ideology? Exactly what is it that is being fought? That >> needs to be clarified. >> > I think both needs to be fought. But if it’s an >> ideology it has to be fought differently, while if it’s a >> person with a gun then it has to be fought differently." >> > >> > KK: Is AR such an ignorant idiot that she cannot see >> that militancy finds it's justifications and reassurances >> from the ideology? What is shameful about AR is that >> she uses the term 'militant' for those who have indulged in >> the most heinous of acts as Taliban and that has gravitated >> many women in Pakistan (under threat to their lives) to >> step-out and speak-out against the Taliban. >> > >> > AR: "In India, they have been fighting insurgencies >> military since 1947 and it has become a more dangerous >> place." >> > >> > KK: Note the "they" word again. But, what would AR >> have India do with those that she herself calls >> "insurgencies"? AR vagueness without any solutions. And, >> some doublespeake. In India she often hints at support for >> separatists. Why does she not espouse for India similar >> attitudes that she advocates in Pakistan where she proclaims >> "I think both needs to be fought" (whether militant or >> ideology)? >> > >> > AR (on the 'Taliban Boy'): "He was made in a factory >> that is producing this kind of mind(set). (The question is) >> who owns that factory, who funds it? Unless we deal with >> that factory, dealing with the boy doesn’t help us." >> > >> > KK: So what should be done about the 'Taliban >> Boy' while AR indulges in her vaguness of 'who owns the >> factory, who funds it?'? AR does not want her "Taliban Boy" >> dealt with. Should we in the meantime invite her 'Taliban >> Boy' to kill some more; behead some more; rape some more? >> > >> > AR: "The RSS has infiltrated the (Indian) army as much >> as various kinds of Wahabism or other kinds of religious >> ideology have infiltrated the ISI or the armed forces in >> Pakistan." >> > >> > KK: Note the words "as much". AR seems to know much >> more about the Indian Army then the rest of India knows for >> her to bring about an equivalence in the 'religion >> infiltration' into the Armed Forces of India and Pakistan. >> More likely is that she knows very little about the >> anxieties in Pakistan about the extent to which there is >> widespread suspicion (in Pakistan and elsewhere) about the >> continued influence exerted within the ISI and the Armed >> Forces of Pakistan by hardline religious ideology inspite >> of major efforts (especially by Musharraf) to unshackle >> them. >> > >> > Kshmendra >> > >> > --- On Wed, 5/13/09, Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> wrote: >> > >> > >> > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> > Subject: [Reader-list] Arundhati Roy in Karachi >> > To: "reader-list at sarai.net >> list" >> > Date: Wednesday, May 13, 2009, 8:07 AM >> > >> > >> > Dear All, >> > >> > The Delhi based writer Arundhati Roy has recently been >> in Karachi, >> > Pakistan at the invitation of civil society >> organizations and womens >> > rights groups. Here are two reports from Dawn, a >> Karachi based daily, >> > about meetings she attended (with an organization >> titled 'Womens >> > Action Forum') and interactions she had. I hope that >> they will be of >> > interest to people on the list. >> > >> > regards, >> > >> > Shuddha >> > ------------------------------ >> > 1. >> > >> > Arundhati Roy and the WAF >> > By Zubeida Mustafa >> > Wednesday, 13 May, 2009 >> > http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/ >> > pakistan/11-arundhati-roy-and-the-waf--02 >> > >> > ‘WOMEN to reclaim public spaces: a programme of >> defiance and >> > resistance.’ That is how the Women’s Action Forum >> defined the meeting >> > it held last Friday to mobilise public opinion against >> extremism. >> > >> > Although WAF’s concern to protect the space women >> have created in the >> > public mainstream has been on its agenda for some >> time, this goal has >> > acquired urgency in the wake of the events in Swat. >> The Nizam-i-Adl >> > Regulation in Malakand Division has brought people >> face to face with >> > the ugly reality of the Talibanisation phenomenon in >> the rural >> > backwaters as well as in modern urban centres. >> > >> > The Karachi meeting was well-attended by WAF’s >> standards. It is not >> > easy to mobilise women for any cause in this city of >> multiple >> > identities. The metropolis has a diversity of >> populations, cultures, >> > languages and economic interests posing a challenge to >> bring women >> > together on a single platform. Learning from its >> experience of the >> > lawyers’ movement that had succeeded in uniting the >> extreme right and >> > centrist political parties and the professionals on a >> single-point >> > agenda for two years, WAF also decided to make >> Talibanisation and >> > women the focal issue. >> > >> > That strategy paid off. Women had already been >> galvanised by the >> > video showing the flogging of a teenaged girl in Swat >> that activist >> > Samar Minallah courageously brought to the world >> media’s attention, >> > invoking in the process the wrath of the Taliban whose >> fatwa declared >> > her as wajibul qatl. The oppression of women is an >> issue that cuts >> > across classes to touch every female raw nerve. >> Whether it is the >> > smartly turned-out high-society woman or the working >> woman who slaves >> > all day long to feed an army of children and a >> drug-addict husband or >> > even the heavily veiled orthodox woman, each type, >> with few >> > exceptions, has expressed her horror at the flogging >> incident. >> > >> > Hence on this occasion WAF managed to bring a diverse >> crowd together >> > — the activists reaching out to the grassroots such >> as Amar Sindhu >> > from Sindh University Hyderabad, Parveen Rahman from >> the Orangi Pilot >> > Project and Sadiqa Salahuddin whose Indus Resource >> Centre runs >> > schools in the interior of Sindh, as well as the >> elites sitting side >> > by side with the three van-loads of women from Neelum >> Colony who >> > clean the homes of the rich and will be starting their >> adult literacy >> > classes from next week, courtesy Shabina’s Garage >> School. >> > >> > The variety of speakers focusing on the theme of >> women’s oppression >> > by the Taliban found a responsive audience. But the >> question that >> > made many ponder was: what next? Can this interest be >> sustained? If >> > they had not already started probing for answers, the >> thought- >> > provoking speech by Arundhati Roy, the renowned Indian >> writer and >> > activist, did the trick. Coming from New Delhi on a >> solidarity >> > mission to WAF’s meeting. Roy raised four issues: >> > >> > • What do we mean by the Taliban and what gave birth >> to them? >> > >> > • Define your own space and do not surrender it. >> > >> > • Don’t allow yourself to be forced into making >> choices of the ‘with >> > us or against us’ type. >> > >> > • Don’t be selective in your injustices. >> > >> > These should provide food for thought for those >> struggling against >> > oppression. Without being specific, Roy exhorted her >> audience to look >> > into the structures and systems that lead to a >> situation of such >> > extreme oppression, some of which is rooted in the >> class conflict. >> > She believes one has to take a ‘total view’ of the >> matter, which she >> > admitted she had come to Pakistan to understand. >> > >> > The fact is that we live in a largely grey area where >> the lines are >> > not sharply drawn. There is a lot of overlapping >> between issues >> > touching gender, class, ethnicity, culture, political >> power and >> > economic gains. It is this reality one has to >> recognise and see how >> > the contradictions can be addressed. The demand to >> take sides >> > unambiguously, expressed so vividly in the days >> following 9/11 by >> > George Bush as ‘You are with us or against us,’ >> can create a dilemma >> > for people when negotiating these grey areas. >> > >> > Roy’s advice to avoid being ‘with us or against >> us’ has implications >> > she didn’t elucidate. In times when action is needed >> and a position >> > has to be taken — even if verbally — inaction or >> neutrality >> > unwittingly props up the status quo. If the status quo >> has been >> > created by inimical forces ostensibly now fighting >> their self-created >> > Frankenstein, where does one go? >> > >> > The practical approach would be to prioritise >> strategies that can be >> > adapted to changing circumstances. And what should >> these be? Here Roy >> > has a point when she says that one cannot be selective >> in the >> > justices one espouses and the injustices one >> denounces. In this >> > context Pakistanis find themselves trapped between the >> devil and the >> > deep sea. Attempting to rectify a problem here and >> another there >> > really doesn’t help because our entire state >> structure is colonial, >> > as a booklet titled Making Pakistan a Tenable State >> points out. >> > >> > Produced by 17 intellectuals, with Dr Mubashir Hasan >> as the driving >> > force, the book describes the state structure as being >> ‘based on the >> > concentration of political and administrative power in >> the steel >> > frame of the civil services under the protection of >> the armed forces. >> > The structure could be defined as >> feudal-military-bureaucratic.’ >> > >> > The problem is systemic. In a state ruled by ‘a >> government of the >> > elites, by the elites, for the elites’ it is >> inevitable that it is >> > authoritarian and exploitative. Change can come when >> there is >> > mobilisation of the people for change. When WAF >> mobilises women to >> > fight against injustices it prepares them to also >> fight for change. >> > The need is to empower them and instill confidence in >> them. >> > >> > Two women I have written about who are fighting for >> change come from >> > the poorest of the poor and theirs is not a feminist >> agenda. They are >> > fighting to have a roof above their heads. One is the >> wife of Walidad >> > from Muhammad Essa Khaskheli who came all the way to >> Karachi in the >> > heat of summer to save her goth from being snapped up >> by a feudal in >> > the neighbourhood. >> > >> > The other is Parveen whose one-room ‘mansion’ in a >> katchi abadi of >> > Clifton is now under threat of demolition. She is >> resisting the >> > exploitative system that cannot provide shelter to the >> poor. >> > Initially she hesitated — was it ‘proper’ for a >> woman to protest she >> > had asked me. When encouraged she decided it was. >> These are women on >> > the way to empowerment and that is WAF’s agenda. >> > >> >   2. >> > >> > ‘I’m here to understand what you mean by >> Taliban’ >> > by Salman Siddiqui >> > Friday, 08 May, 2009 >> > http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/ >> > pakistan/arundhati-roy-sal-02 >> > >> > Is there a threat of Talibanisation engulfing the >> entire region? >> > >> > I think it has already engulfed our region. I think >> there’s a need >> > for a very clear thinking (on this issue of >> Talibanisation). In >> > India, there are two kinds of terrorism: one is >> Islamic terrorism and >> > the other Maoist terrorism. But this term terrorism, >> we must ask, >> > what do they mean by it. >> > >> > In Pakistan, I’m here to understand what they mean >> by this term. When >> > we say we must fight the Taliban or must defeat them, >> what does it >> > mean? I’m here to understand what you mean when you >> say Taliban. Do >> > you mean a militant? Do you mean an ideology? Exactly >> what is it that >> > is being fought? That needs to be clarified. >> > >> > I think both needs to be fought. But if it’s an >> ideology it has to be >> > fought differently, while if it’s a person with a >> gun then it has to >> > be fought differently. We know from the history of the >> war on terror >> > that a military strategy is only making matters worse >> all over the >> > world. The war on terror has made the world a more >> dangerous place. >> > In India, they have been fighting insurgencies >> military since 1947 >> > and it has become a more dangerous place. >> > >> > Swat and the Taliban boy >> > >> > It is very important for me to understand what exactly >> is going in >> > Swat. How did it start? A Taliban boy asked me why >> women can’t be >> > like plastic bags and banned. The point is that the >> plastic bag was >> > made in a factory but so was the boy. He was made in a >> factory that >> > is producing this kind of mind(set). (The question is) >> who owns that >> > factory, who funds it? Unless we deal with that >> factory, dealing with >> > the boy doesn’t help us. >> > >> > Water is the main issue >> > >> > One danger in Pakistan is that we talk about the >> threat of Taliban so >> > much that other important issues lose focus. In my >> view, the problem >> > of water in the world will become the most important >> problem.  I >> > think big dams are economically unviable, >> environmentally >> > unsustainable and politically undemocratic. They are a >> way of taking >> > away a river from the poor and giving it to the rich. >> Like in India, >> > there’s an issue of SEZs (Special Economic Zones), >> whereby the land >> > of the people are given to corporations. But the >> bigger problem is >> > that there are making dams and giving water to the >> industries. This >> > way the people who live in villages by the streams and >> rivers have no >> > water for themselves. So building dams is one of the >> most >> > ecologically destructive things that you can do. >> > >> > Fight over Siachen glacier >> > >> > There are thousands of Pakistani and Indian soldiers >> deployed on the >> > Siachen glacier. Both of our countries are spending >> billions of >> > dollars on high altitude warfare and weapons. The >> whole of the >> > Siachen glacier is sort of an icy monument to human >> folly. Each day >> > it is being filled with ice axes, old boots, tents and >> so on. >> > Meanwhile, that battlefield is melting. Siachen >> glacier is about half >> > its size now. It’s not melting because the Indian >> and Pakistani >> > soldiers are on it. But it’s because people >> somewhere on the other >> > side of the world are leading a good life….in >> countries that call >> > themselves democracies that believe in human rights >> and free speech. >> > Their economies depend on selling weapons to both of >> us. Now, when >> > that glacier melts, there will be floods first, then >> there will be a >> > drought and then we’ll have even more reasons to >> fight. We’ll buy >> > more weapons from those democracies and in this way >> human beings will >> > prove themselves to be the stupidest animals on >> earth. >> > >> > Money and the Indian elections >> > >> > Whatever system of government you have, whether it is >> a military >> > dictatorship or a democracy, and you have that for a >> long time, >> > eventually big money manages to subvert it. That has >> begun to happen >> > even in a democracy (like India). For example, >> political parties need >> > a lot of publicity, but the media is also run by >> corporate money. If >> > you look at the big political parties like the >> Congress and the BJP, >> > you see how much money is being put out just in their >> advertising >> > budgets. Now where does all that come from? >> > >> > RSS and the Indian establishment >> > >> > The RSS has infiltrated everything to a great extent. >> In India, we >> > have 120-150 million Muslims and it’s considered a >> minority…It’s >> > impossible to not belong to a minority of some sort in >> India. Caste >> > or ethnicity or religion or whatever, in some way >> everyone belongs to >> > a minority. The fights that many of us are waging >> against the RSS and >> > against the BJP are to say that we live in a society >> which >> > accommodates everybody. Everybody doesn’t have to >> love everybody, but >> > everybody has to be accommodated.  The RSS has >> infiltrated the >> > (Indian) army as much as various kinds of Wahabism or >> other kinds of >> > religious ideology have infiltrated the ISI or the >> armed forces in >> > Pakistan. They are human beings like everyone else and >> they too get >> > influenced. >> > >> > Indian media and sensationalizing of news coming out >> from Pakistan >> > >> > I think the media in both countries play this game. >> Whenever >> > something happens here, they hype it up there, while >> when something >> > happens there, they hype the news here. We say that we >> live in times >> > of an information revolution and free press, but even >> then nobody >> > gets to know the complete picture… >> > >> > The Pakistani media is a little different from the >> Indian media. They >> > stand on a slightly different foundation. But both >> share the problem >> > of a lack of accountability…The trouble in India is >> that 90 per cent >> > of their revenue comes from the corporate >> sector…there’s increasing >> > privatization and corporatization of governance, >> education, health, >> > infrastructure and water management. So in India you >> see an open >> > criticism of governance, but very rarely criticism of >> corporations. >> > It’s a structural problem. It’s not about good >> people or bad people. >> > It’s just that you can’t expect a company to work >> against itself. >> > This is a very serious issue which needs to be sorted >> out. >> > >> > Is the Indian army a sacred cow? >> > >> > The Indian army is quite a sacred cow especially on TV >> and Bollywood. >> > But at the same time if you talk to the people in the >> Indian army, >> > they say that they feel that the media is very >> critical of them. I >> > don’t share that view. I think it is a sacred cow. >> People are willing >> > to give them a lot of leeway. >> > >> > Women and their fight for justice >> > >> > When women fight for justice, we must fight for every >> kind of justice… >> > We must fight for justice for men and justice for >> children. Because >> > if you fight for one kind of justice and you tolerate >> another, then >> > it’s a pretty hollow fight. You may not be able to >> fight every >> > battle, but you should be able to put yourself on the >> line and say I >> > believe this. >> > >> > >> > >> > Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> > The Sarai Programme at CSDS >> > Raqs Media Collective >> > shuddha at sarai.net >> > www.sarai.net >> > www.raqsmediacollective.net >> > >> > >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the >> city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >> with subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: >> > >> > >> > >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the >> city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >> with subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: >> >> >> >> -- >> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the >> city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >> with subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: > > > > -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From c.anupam at gmail.com Fri May 15 18:59:23 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 18:59:23 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: [friendsforeveronnet] Difficulties faced by LOGO Designers.... In-Reply-To: <354506.7631.qm@web94709.mail.in2.yahoo.com> References: <966139.81353.qm@web94715.mail.in2.yahoo.com> <341380d00905130814r696dcce7idf87747631370258@mail.gmail.com> <354506.7631.qm@web94709.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <341380d00905150629x5b0012acod05f2e6698ff5efe@mail.gmail.com> dear subhrodip, while working as a newspaper page designer, even i had a problem with the way the mast head and anchor are believed to be the two balancing elements in the standard newspaper. however, such problems have been overcome by the advent of online media. therefore on certain times, i do not think the computers are taking over the artist's brain. i think its expanding horizons for human mind to develop and express itself. however, the greater reliance on softwares, which is what can be problemmatic. in terms of logo designing, i am more interested in the way certains aspects of traditional callgraphy (especially arabic and japanese) playing a role in logos, and as we know them. copyright issues, over the years i feel stand trivialised as more and more evolved institutions opt for GNU licenses. so i guess there will be a phase when we could call CNN and FDA issues to be really petty :) in our times, with the revival of tattoo as an "accessory" also has an important role to play in shaping the private-indie movement of young entrepreneurs. some of the sites especially www.issuu.com have a fair amount well researched designs. there are several aspects. if we go by naomi klien's ideas on brands, the logo becomes as trivial as modern form of capitalism. anyway, best wishes for your entrance. if i find more stuff on logos, i would definately post it. thanks anupam On 5/14/09, subhrodip sengupta wrote: > > Dear Anupam, > Thanks for taking inetrest, and springing upon the rat at it's mouth > watering smell. Thats why I left them free on this forum. without my having > quite much do do with them. YOu might have seen the font-based similarities. > INdeed the challenge is a legal one. The CNN and FDA issue that you raised > is one I had heard of at quite an young age well so you can not quite blame > my memory or intent. Well some copying some aspects is intentional to aim at > that particular organisations brand value, to save costs etc, Usually fonts > collide. Where logo designing comes, I get stumped!Though it looks as an > interesting subject, I have never trained at it. Why the hell there are only > a few differentiable angles on the plane in do we look at similarity in > designs? To conjure more stories?Or is it a result of computers taking hold > over the artists brain? I am dead against IPL and shumpeterianism, not > neo-ones.I have an entrance so I'd love to hear on aspects of Logo design > and on recent events in 2008-09, a summary on which they might ask > questions. . IIMC delhi.(open ended). > > Regards > Subhrodip. > > ------------------------------ > Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter now! > From indersalim at gmail.com Fri May 15 19:09:04 2009 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 19:09:04 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Renee Ridgway Newsletter Message In-Reply-To: <20090515034317.97978577@reneeridgway.net> References: <20090515034317.97978577@reneeridgway.net> Message-ID: <47e122a70905150639t715f0254i3fd9d0b287052a69@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Renee Ridgway Newsletter Date: Fri, May 15, 2009 at 9:38 AM Subject: Renee Ridgway Newsletter Message To: Renee Ridgway Newsletter Subscriber Holland Mania Opening May 16, 2009 for more information please see my website: http://reneeridgway.net De Lakenhal in Leiden, the Netherlands and Scheltema announce the exhibition Holland Mania from May 16th to August 31, 2009. Eight artists are invited to reflect on the American and Japanese pictorial image of the Netherlands. The most recent installment of my 'Manhattan Project' looks not only at 400 years of Dutch colonial settlement in the United States, but the city of Leiden- 400 years after the Pilgrims settled and eventually departed to the new world. What types of images are conjured up through literature, historical texts, remnants of the past and oral traditions? Using the museum context as a background with its collection of historical exhibits, prints, paintings and objects, this series of works gathers a range of perspectives in regard to constructions of identity, in the form of ‘Dutchness’ as well as contemporary Wampanoag peoples. Imagery consists of a 'Pennsylvania Dutch' quilt designed by the Amish yet composed from the Dutch and American flags. 'Dial Dutchness' is an installation throughout the museum incorporating Leiden telephone book pages and 8 multi-coloured PTT T-65 telephones with audio tracks from locals as well as Americans with Dutch last names. These vox populi voices are contrasted in 'Pillars of Orange'-expert opinions presented as literary silk-screened excerpts from literature, music and academic texts as if for an imaginary book on 'Dutchness', contrasted by real books from the secret Pilgrim Press. In the chapel of the museum the installation 'Wampanoag' uses the existent paintings and objects as a staging fo r two drawings and a single channel video projection where Wampanoag do not re-enact but rather answer specific questions regarding 17th century conventions, oral histories and the contemporary usage of wampum. The museum has also kindly offered me a studio during the exhibition as an impromptu call centre in which to continue my 'Dial Dutchness' installation as well as work on my forthcoming online platform 'Beaver, Wampum, Hoes'. Please let me know if you plan on coming to visit or if I should call you instead. You are subscribed to Renée Ridgway's newsletter You may unsubscribe by visiting the following URL: http://newsletters.holzfrei.net/cgi-bin/mail.cgi/u/reneeridgway/ -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From indersalim at gmail.com Fri May 15 19:13:49 2009 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 19:13:49 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Renee Ridgway Newsletter Message In-Reply-To: <47e122a70905150639t715f0254i3fd9d0b287052a69@mail.gmail.com> References: <20090515034317.97978577@reneeridgway.net> <47e122a70905150639t715f0254i3fd9d0b287052a69@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70905150643p14f28307r34c0bc350787d231@mail.gmail.com> Holland Mania- Renee Ridgway Nwesletter forwarded to Sarai reader list hope ur fine love and hugs is On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 7:09 PM, Inder Salim wrote: > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Renee Ridgway Newsletter > Date: Fri, May 15, 2009 at 9:38 AM > Subject: Renee Ridgway Newsletter Message > To: Renee Ridgway Newsletter Subscriber > > > Holland Mania > > Opening May 16, 2009 > > for more information please see my website: http://reneeridgway.net > > De Lakenhal in Leiden, the Netherlands and Scheltema announce the > exhibition Holland Mania from May 16th to August 31, 2009. Eight > artists are invited to reflect on the American and Japanese pictorial > image of the Netherlands. The most recent installment of my 'Manhattan > Project' looks not only at 400 years of Dutch colonial settlement in > the United States, but the city of Leiden- 400 years after the > Pilgrims settled and eventually departed to the new world. What types > of images are conjured up through literature, historical texts, > remnants of the past and oral traditions? > > Using the museum context as a background with its collection of > historical exhibits, prints, paintings and objects, this series of > works gathers a range of perspectives in regard to constructions of > identity, in the form of ‘Dutchness’ as well as contemporary Wampanoag > peoples. Imagery consists of a 'Pennsylvania Dutch' quilt designed by > the Amish yet composed from the Dutch and American flags. 'Dial > Dutchness' is an installation throughout the museum incorporating > Leiden telephone book pages and 8 multi-coloured PTT T-65 telephones > with audio tracks from locals as well as Americans with Dutch last > names. These vox populi voices are contrasted in 'Pillars of > Orange'-expert opinions presented as literary silk-screened excerpts > from literature, music and academic texts as if for an imaginary book > on 'Dutchness', contrasted by real books from the secret Pilgrim > Press. In the chapel of the museum the installation 'Wampanoag' uses > the existent paintings and objects as a staging fo > r two drawings and a single channel video projection where Wampanoag > do not re-enact but rather answer specific questions regarding 17th > century conventions, oral histories and the contemporary usage of > wampum. > > The museum has also kindly offered me a studio during the exhibition > as an impromptu call centre in which to continue my 'Dial Dutchness' > installation as well as work on my forthcoming online platform > 'Beaver, Wampum, Hoes'. Please let me know if you plan on coming to > visit or if I should call you instead. > > You are subscribed to Renée Ridgway's newsletter > You may unsubscribe by visiting the following URL: > http://newsletters.holzfrei.net/cgi-bin/mail.cgi/u/reneeridgway/ > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From yasir.media at gmail.com Sat May 16 00:31:02 2009 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?windows-1256?B?eWFzaXIgfu3HINPR?=) Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 00:01:02 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Videos - Arundhati Roy at Karachi Press Club In-Reply-To: <5af37bb0905090956s30e34e57r7678e2922feac2b9@mail.gmail.com> References: <5af37bb0905090956s30e34e57r7678e2922feac2b9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5af37bb0905151201l69219442h7a381ac1b849ff05@mail.gmail.com> [sorry, i thought i posted these earlier. y] part 1 (in english, starts in urdu) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4z-xSbBaQo part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23axNLU5Ryk From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sat May 16 01:55:28 2009 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 01:55:28 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Geelani stokes Amarnath fire Message-ID: <6353c690905151325i310b396br7d1ec5a84a119fa8@mail.gmail.com> Geelani stokes Amarnath fire *Ishfaq ul Hassan DNA* Friday, May 15, 2009 3:16 IST [image: Email] Email [image: Print] Print [image: Text size] Text [image: Share] Share <#share> *Srinagar: *Hurriyat hawk Syed Ali Shah Geelani has called extension ofthe duration of the Amarnath Yatra to two months a "cultural aggression" from New Delhi, evoking sharp reaction from the Shri Amarnath Sangarsh Samiti (SASS). The shrine board called his remarks an attempt to vitiate the atmosphere before the yatra. "Initially the yatra used to be for three days, but was later extended to 15 days. Then it was again extended to two months. The extension of yatra is a nefarious design by New Delhi to unleash a cultural aggression. The extended period is also a source of environmental hazard, therefore it should be limited to 15 days," said Geelani. The yatra will commence on June 7 and conclude on August 5. Geelani supported the yatris. "Everyone has a right to practice his or her religion freely. Nobody will disturb the yatra." But the shrine board said Geelani's statement was uncalled for. "Geelani's remarks are an attempt to vitiate the atmosphere before the yatra.The yatra will take off and will conclude after two months," said Brig (retd) Suchet Singh, the board's convener. From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sat May 16 14:58:40 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 02:28:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Arundhati Roy in Karachi Message-ID: <929405.8989.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Inder   I do not know if the Mr. KK you refer to is me. If it is not then please ignore this mail.   If it is me you are referring to, then please clarify where have I answered (as you put it) what Rahul as put as questions to you over your earlier statements. Rahul wrote to you:   """" Inder Salim, "The charge against Arundhati Roy is that why she chose not to speak the language of US in Pakistan."   Who made this charge?   "The boy ( Taliban boy) should be killed instantly the moment he said that ‘woman’ and ‘plastic bags’ should be banned. That is perhaps, the argument."   Who made this argument? """"""   Inder, either you are frighteningly delusional or shamelessly unethical in misrepresenting / misquoting / mis-attributing words and positions to others.   Just a few days back I reminded you of this disgusting habit of yours. You had the most peurile response by saying that you are not a lawyer and that you 'infer'.   Kshmendra   --- On Fri, 5/15/09, Inder Salim wrote: From: Inder Salim Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Arundhati Roy in Karachi To: "reader-list" Date: Friday, May 15, 2009, 6:11 PM Dear Rahul i think the question is already answered by Mr. K K i only reflected love is On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 4:01 PM, Rahul Asthana wrote: > > Inder Salim, > > "The charge against Arundhati Roy is that why she chose not to speak > the language of US in Pakistan." > > Who made this charge? > > "The boy ( Taliban boy >> ) should be >> killed instantly the moment he said that ‘woman’ and >> ‘plastic bags’ >> should be banned. That is perhaps, the argument." > > Who made this argument? > > Thanks > Rahul > > > --- On Fri, 5/15/09, Inder Salim wrote: > >> From: Inder Salim >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Arundhati Roy in Karachi >> To: "reader-list" >> Date: Friday, May 15, 2009, 8:59 AM >> Dear All, >> >> "You must be either very dumb or very rich if you fail >> to notice that development stinks", says Gustavo Esteva, a >> Mexican >> activist and development critic. And in a article, couple >> of years >> back, Arundhati Roy wrote, “ The world is journeying on a >> terrible >> path “. >> >> I want to know who disagrees with the above two statements. >> And those >> who see the fanatic Muslim terrorist as the most poisonous >> growth in >> the happiness producing paddy fields of the world , which >> we urgently >> need  weeding,  then I disagree. >> >> The charge against Arundhati Roy is that why she chose not >> to speak >> the language of US in Pakistan.  The boy ( Taliban boy >> ) should be >> killed instantly the moment he said that ‘woman’ and >> ‘plastic bags’ >> should be banned. That is perhaps, the argument. >> >> Now who has put this tag ‘Taliban’ on the forehead of >> millions of >> Muslims in the world, who else, but the USA. Are not >> talking about the >> masters who play this game? If not why? >> >>  Is ISI and the Pakistani Establishment the only masters of >> this boy? >> What if USA/West is the hidden master of this game, and if >> that is a >> possibility, then how the police, who is thief himself will >> catches >> the thief?  Seeing it from a perspective of treatments >> on canvas, this >> handling of Af-Pak issue by USA is as unaesthetic as Iraq >> war was. >> This is bound to generate ugliness, but unfortunately, they >> are >> probably content with their actions, as usual. >> >>   Looking seriously at the problem ,  I think >> 9/11 was a long term >> investment for USA/West to harvest dividends. The threat, >> which is >> more projected than real,  to their securities has >> already hardened >> the boarders, and the  excuse to inspect/control the >> weapons in our >> backyards has become real. They almost say, that we should >> know what >> is  happening in your homes. The trouble is that our >> knowledge of >> their homes does not reveal that hidden agenda. >> >> Meanwhile, they will make us forget that it was their >> willingness in >> the first place to manufacture these weapons of mass >> destruction, so, >> we all will believe that ‘they there’ are right >> and ‘we here’ are >> wrong. They design the guns and bombs, they finance it, >> they >> distribute it, and they decide how to fix the >> responsibility. >> >> We already know that taking a stand against the boy with >> disdain for ‘ >> they there’ is a demand of times, some sort of >> pragmatism, so we need >> to say yes, yes, let us kill the boy and thousand and >> thousand of >> other like him. We want development, even if it >> ‘stinks’. >> >> This sound called USA/West has already killed half a >> million in Iraq >> and we still believe that the enemy of humanity is this >> terrorist, >> this terrorist only.  We must be naïve to give all >> the benefit of >> doubts to them. ( here, them and us is not a black and >> white contrast, >> but we need to know how much of fiction is weaved in the >> us-like as >> them-like, or even, vice versa. ) >> >> Sad, if we think that to kill this boy is the remedy to our >> ills, then >> how to let us go ahead with killing the entire >> Taliabanized  society >> in Pakistan and Afghanistan, which runs in millions. >> Mr. Jamal, a >> Pakistani Journalist said that there are half a million >> hard core >> units ( Jihadis/individuals ) from Madarasas ( schools ) in >> Pakistan. >> First, how to mark one by one, and how to change the >> programmed grey >> matter inside the head. As Ashish Nandy rightly pointed out >> that >> Modern societies have no previous  experience to deal >> with a person >> who is willing to die, for a cause, which is not >> necessarily valid for >> rest of us. >> >> The trouble begins when for example, a Megaphone Company is >> delighted >> to sell its product to thousands of mosques in thousands of >> villages >> in the these two countries. They are happy to push the >> sales, but have >> the so called peace generating  companies ever >> campaigned against the >> sale of their product to these companies. They should have >> reminded >> them that the muezzin does not need scientific means to >> push religion >> in the minds of people, but goodwill, trust, compassion and >> simplicity >> etc. But they do the reverse, they tell them lies, and try >> all the >> tricks to sell their product, and so  why it is >> surprises us if we get >> a Tabliban from such promotions. This is just a case in the >> point. >> >> The trouble begins here, for example, terrorist uprising in >> Kashmir >> created all the violence against the innocent people in the >> valley. >> Both Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims suffered terribly, and now, >> yes, when >> there is a visible mistrust against them ( >> terrorists) in the valley, >> and we feel people are returning back to normal life, how >> are we going >> to define ‘peace’ and ‘development’ in real sense >> of the word. What is >> normal life? And if it means a return to the decadence and >> a dumb >> chase of American style of living, at a terrible cost of >> our >> environment and cultural moorings, then what should I say. >> >> This I am saying, even if people will forget  the core >> Kashmir issue >> which is presently unresolved. >> >> Just by killing the  remaining 3000 odd terrorist in >> the valley, I >> don’t know what we, the so called peace loving people, >> are going to >> achieve. >> >>  I never said, that the presence of terrorists in the >> valley is/was a >> future catalyst to resolve the issues which I have raised, >> but their >> absence too wont change the rules of the game which are >> nothing ,but >> what Gustavo’s ‘stink’ generating projects talk >> about. >> >> Will  there be a solid peace in the region. I doubt. >> The propaganda >> right now is that the  terrorist caused the delay in >> development. >> Logically, yes, but what development. >> >> May be we need to define this animal called development >> first before >> we go to define the terrorist. >> >> The trouble begins, here again , as Mr. Jamals interviewer >> pointed >> out, that the Terrorist can not lead a normal life even >> after the >> issue is resolved. So how to treat the situation? >> >> So what is the way out ? >> >> Love and regards >> Inder salim >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 6:07 PM, Kshmendra Kaul >> wrote: >> > Arundhati Roy (AR) is in fashion. Rebel in fashion. A >> rebel with many causes to whine about with no solutions to >> offer. Since her grip on realities is uncertain, all >> that she can indulge in is vague intellectualising. That >> has always been in demand. Greater the obtuseness, easier >> it is to be highly thought of by unthinking minds. >> > >> > Zubeida Mustafa knowingly or unwittingly brings out >> the vaguness of AR when she says "Roy’s advice to avoid >> being ‘with us or against us’ has implications she >> didn’t elucidate". Zubeida goes on to say "In times when >> action is needed and a position has to be taken — even if >> verbally — inaction or neutrality unwittingly props up the >> status quo." >> > >> > How shallow minded AR is, gets highlighted in what >> are ostensibly quotes from her speech(es) at the WAF meet. >> > >> > AR: "In India, there are two kinds of terrorism: one >> is Islamic terrorism and the other Maoist terrorism. But >> this term terrorism, we must ask, what do they mean by >> it. " >> > >> > KK: Note the word "they". Who is this "they"? Why did >> AR fail to mention that there is also public discourse on >> 'Hindu terrorism' and 'Economic terrorism'.  Even on >> 'State terrorism' to some degree. What is this "they" she is >> trying to create? Or, is she trying to say there is no >> 'terrorism' in India and that it is just a figment of the >> imagination of the "they"? >> > >> > AR: "I’m here to understand what you mean when you >> say Taliban." >> > >> > KK : AR also spoke about a Taliban Boy. How did she >> know the boy was "Taliban" if she is yet to understand what >> they mean by "Taliban" in Pakistan? She seems to have her >> own understanding of that term "Taliban". Why doesnt she >> tell us what she means by "Taliban"? >> > >> > AR (On Taliban): "Do you mean a militant? Do you mean >> an ideology? Exactly what is it that is being fought? That >> needs to be clarified. >> > I think both needs to be fought. But if it’s an >> ideology it has to be fought differently, while if it’s a >> person with a gun then it has to be fought differently." >> > >> > KK: Is AR such an ignorant idiot that she cannot see >> that militancy finds it's justifications and reassurances >> from the ideology? What is shameful about AR is that >> she uses the term 'militant' for those who have indulged in >> the most heinous of acts as Taliban and that has gravitated >> many women in Pakistan (under threat to their lives) to >> step-out and speak-out against the Taliban. >> > >> > AR: "In India, they have been fighting insurgencies >> military since 1947 and it has become a more dangerous >> place." >> > >> > KK: Note the "they" word again. But, what would AR >> have India do with those that she herself calls >> "insurgencies"? AR vagueness without any solutions. And, >> some doublespeake. In India she often hints at support for >> separatists. Why does she not espouse for India similar >> attitudes that she advocates in Pakistan where she proclaims >> "I think both needs to be fought" (whether militant or >> ideology)? >> > >> > AR (on the 'Taliban Boy'): "He was made in a factory >> that is producing this kind of mind(set). (The question is) >> who owns that factory, who funds it? Unless we deal with >> that factory, dealing with the boy doesn’t help us." >> > >> > KK: So what should be done about the 'Taliban >> Boy' while AR indulges in her vaguness of 'who owns the >> factory, who funds it?'? AR does not want her "Taliban Boy" >> dealt with. Should we in the meantime invite her 'Taliban >> Boy' to kill some more; behead some more; rape some more? >> > >> > AR: "The RSS has infiltrated the (Indian) army as much >> as various kinds of Wahabism or other kinds of religious >> ideology have infiltrated the ISI or the armed forces in >> Pakistan." >> > >> > KK: Note the words "as much". AR seems to know much >> more about the Indian Army then the rest of India knows for >> her to bring about an equivalence in the 'religion >> infiltration' into the Armed Forces of India and Pakistan. >> More likely is that she knows very little about the >> anxieties in Pakistan about the extent to which there is >> widespread suspicion (in Pakistan and elsewhere) about the >> continued influence exerted within the ISI and the Armed >> Forces of Pakistan by hardline religious ideology inspite >> of major efforts (especially by Musharraf) to unshackle >> them. >> > >> > Kshmendra >> > >> > --- On Wed, 5/13/09, Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> wrote: >> > >> > >> > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> > Subject: [Reader-list] Arundhati Roy in Karachi >> > To: "reader-list at sarai.net >> list" >> > Date: Wednesday, May 13, 2009, 8:07 AM >> > >> > >> > Dear All, >> > >> > The Delhi based writer Arundhati Roy has recently been >> in Karachi, >> > Pakistan at the invitation of civil society >> organizations and womens >> > rights groups. Here are two reports from Dawn, a >> Karachi based daily, >> > about meetings she attended (with an organization >> titled 'Womens >> > Action Forum') and interactions she had. I hope that >> they will be of >> > interest to people on the list. >> > >> > regards, >> > >> > Shuddha >> > ------------------------------ >> > 1. >> > >> > Arundhati Roy and the WAF >> > By Zubeida Mustafa >> > Wednesday, 13 May, 2009 >> > http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/ >> > pakistan/11-arundhati-roy-and-the-waf--02 >> > >> > ‘WOMEN to reclaim public spaces: a programme of >> defiance and >> > resistance.’ That is how the Women’s Action Forum >> defined the meeting >> > it held last Friday to mobilise public opinion against >> extremism. >> > >> > Although WAF’s concern to protect the space women >> have created in the >> > public mainstream has been on its agenda for some >> time, this goal has >> > acquired urgency in the wake of the events in Swat. >> The Nizam-i-Adl >> > Regulation in Malakand Division has brought people >> face to face with >> > the ugly reality of the Talibanisation phenomenon in >> the rural >> > backwaters as well as in modern urban centres. >> > >> > The Karachi meeting was well-attended by WAF’s >> standards. It is not >> > easy to mobilise women for any cause in this city of >> multiple >> > identities. The metropolis has a diversity of >> populations, cultures, >> > languages and economic interests posing a challenge to >> bring women >> > together on a single platform. Learning from its >> experience of the >> > lawyers’ movement that had succeeded in uniting the >> extreme right and >> > centrist political parties and the professionals on a >> single-point >> > agenda for two years, WAF also decided to make >> Talibanisation and >> > women the focal issue. >> > >> > That strategy paid off. Women had already been >> galvanised by the >> > video showing the flogging of a teenaged girl in Swat >> that activist >> > Samar Minallah courageously brought to the world >> media’s attention, >> > invoking in the process the wrath of the Taliban whose >> fatwa declared >> > her as wajibul qatl. The oppression of women is an >> issue that cuts >> > across classes to touch every female raw nerve. >> Whether it is the >> > smartly turned-out high-society woman or the working >> woman who slaves >> > all day long to feed an army of children and a >> drug-addict husband or >> > even the heavily veiled orthodox woman, each type, >> with few >> > exceptions, has expressed her horror at the flogging >> incident. >> > >> > Hence on this occasion WAF managed to bring a diverse >> crowd together >> > — the activists reaching out to the grassroots such >> as Amar Sindhu >> > from Sindh University Hyderabad, Parveen Rahman from >> the Orangi Pilot >> > Project and Sadiqa Salahuddin whose Indus Resource >> Centre runs >> > schools in the interior of Sindh, as well as the >> elites sitting side >> > by side with the three van-loads of women from Neelum >> Colony who >> > clean the homes of the rich and will be starting their >> adult literacy >> > classes from next week, courtesy Shabina’s Garage >> School. >> > >> > The variety of speakers focusing on the theme of >> women’s oppression >> > by the Taliban found a responsive audience. But the >> question that >> > made many ponder was: what next? Can this interest be >> sustained? If >> > they had not already started probing for answers, the >> thought- >> > provoking speech by Arundhati Roy, the renowned Indian >> writer and >> > activist, did the trick. Coming from New Delhi on a >> solidarity >> > mission to WAF’s meeting. Roy raised four issues: >> > >> > • What do we mean by the Taliban and what gave birth >> to them? >> > >> > • Define your own space and do not surrender it. >> > >> > • Don’t allow yourself to be forced into making >> choices of the ‘with >> > us or against us’ type. >> > >> > • Don’t be selective in your injustices. >> > >> > These should provide food for thought for those >> struggling against >> > oppression. Without being specific, Roy exhorted her >> audience to look >> > into the structures and systems that lead to a >> situation of such >> > extreme oppression, some of which is rooted in the >> class conflict. >> > She believes one has to take a ‘total view’ of the >> matter, which she >> > admitted she had come to Pakistan to understand. >> > >> > The fact is that we live in a largely grey area where >> the lines are >> > not sharply drawn. There is a lot of overlapping >> between issues >> > touching gender, class, ethnicity, culture, political >> power and >> > economic gains. It is this reality one has to >> recognise and see how >> > the contradictions can be addressed. The demand to >> take sides >> > unambiguously, expressed so vividly in the days >> following 9/11 by >> > George Bush as ‘You are with us or against us,’ >> can create a dilemma >> > for people when negotiating these grey areas. >> > >> > Roy’s advice to avoid being ‘with us or against >> us’ has implications >> > she didn’t elucidate. In times when action is needed >> and a position >> > has to be taken — even if verbally — inaction or >> neutrality >> > unwittingly props up the status quo. If the status quo >> has been >> > created by inimical forces ostensibly now fighting >> their self-created >> > Frankenstein, where does one go? >> > >> > The practical approach would be to prioritise >> strategies that can be >> > adapted to changing circumstances. And what should >> these be? Here Roy >> > has a point when she says that one cannot be selective >> in the >> > justices one espouses and the injustices one >> denounces. In this >> > context Pakistanis find themselves trapped between the >> devil and the >> > deep sea. Attempting to rectify a problem here and >> another there >> > really doesn’t help because our entire state >> structure is colonial, >> > as a booklet titled Making Pakistan a Tenable State >> points out. >> > >> > Produced by 17 intellectuals, with Dr Mubashir Hasan >> as the driving >> > force, the book describes the state structure as being >> ‘based on the >> > concentration of political and administrative power in >> the steel >> > frame of the civil services under the protection of >> the armed forces. >> > The structure could be defined as >> feudal-military-bureaucratic.’ >> > >> > The problem is systemic. In a state ruled by ‘a >> government of the >> > elites, by the elites, for the elites’ it is >> inevitable that it is >> > authoritarian and exploitative. Change can come when >> there is >> > mobilisation of the people for change. When WAF >> mobilises women to >> > fight against injustices it prepares them to also >> fight for change. >> > The need is to empower them and instill confidence in >> them. >> > >> > Two women I have written about who are fighting for >> change come from >> > the poorest of the poor and theirs is not a feminist >> agenda. They are >> > fighting to have a roof above their heads. One is the >> wife of Walidad >> > from Muhammad Essa Khaskheli who came all the way to >> Karachi in the >> > heat of summer to save her goth from being snapped up >> by a feudal in >> > the neighbourhood. >> > >> > The other is Parveen whose one-room ‘mansion’ in a >> katchi abadi of >> > Clifton is now under threat of demolition. She is >> resisting the >> > exploitative system that cannot provide shelter to the >> poor. >> > Initially she hesitated — was it ‘proper’ for a >> woman to protest she >> > had asked me. When encouraged she decided it was. >> These are women on >> > the way to empowerment and that is WAF’s agenda. >> > >> >   2. >> > >> > ‘I’m here to understand what you mean by >> Taliban’ >> > by Salman Siddiqui >> > Friday, 08 May, 2009 >> > http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/ >> > pakistan/arundhati-roy-sal-02 >> > >> > Is there a threat of Talibanisation engulfing the >> entire region? >> > >> > I think it has already engulfed our region. I think >> there’s a need >> > for a very clear thinking (on this issue of >> Talibanisation). In >> > India, there are two kinds of terrorism: one is >> Islamic terrorism and >> > the other Maoist terrorism. But this term terrorism, >> we must ask, >> > what do they mean by it. >> > >> > In Pakistan, I’m here to understand what they mean >> by this term. When >> > we say we must fight the Taliban or must defeat them, >> what does it >> > mean? I’m here to understand what you mean when you >> say Taliban. Do >> > you mean a militant? Do you mean an ideology? Exactly >> what is it that >> > is being fought? That needs to be clarified. >> > >> > I think both needs to be fought. But if it’s an >> ideology it has to be >> > fought differently, while if it’s a person with a >> gun then it has to >> > be fought differently. We know from the history of the >> war on terror >> > that a military strategy is only making matters worse >> all over the >> > world. The war on terror has made the world a more >> dangerous place. >> > In India, they have been fighting insurgencies >> military since 1947 >> > and it has become a more dangerous place. >> > >> > Swat and the Taliban boy >> > >> > It is very important for me to understand what exactly >> is going in >> > Swat. How did it start? A Taliban boy asked me why >> women can’t be >> > like plastic bags and banned. The point is that the >> plastic bag was >> > made in a factory but so was the boy. He was made in a >> factory that >> > is producing this kind of mind(set). (The question is) >> who owns that >> > factory, who funds it? Unless we deal with that >> factory, dealing with >> > the boy doesn’t help us. >> > >> > Water is the main issue >> > >> > One danger in Pakistan is that we talk about the >> threat of Taliban so >> > much that other important issues lose focus. In my >> view, the problem >> > of water in the world will become the most important >> problem.  I >> > think big dams are economically unviable, >> environmentally >> > unsustainable and politically undemocratic. They are a >> way of taking >> > away a river from the poor and giving it to the rich. >> Like in India, >> > there’s an issue of SEZs (Special Economic Zones), >> whereby the land >> > of the people are given to corporations. But the >> bigger problem is >> > that there are making dams and giving water to the >> industries. This >> > way the people who live in villages by the streams and >> rivers have no >> > water for themselves. So building dams is one of the >> most >> > ecologically destructive things that you can do. >> > >> > Fight over Siachen glacier >> > >> > There are thousands of Pakistani and Indian soldiers >> deployed on the >> > Siachen glacier. Both of our countries are spending >> billions of >> > dollars on high altitude warfare and weapons. The >> whole of the >> > Siachen glacier is sort of an icy monument to human >> folly. Each day >> > it is being filled with ice axes, old boots, tents and >> so on. >> > Meanwhile, that battlefield is melting. Siachen >> glacier is about half >> > its size now. It’s not melting because the Indian >> and Pakistani >> > soldiers are on it. But it’s because people >> somewhere on the other >> > side of the world are leading a good life….in >> countries that call >> > themselves democracies that believe in human rights >> and free speech. >> > Their economies depend on selling weapons to both of >> us. Now, when >> > that glacier melts, there will be floods first, then >> there will be a >> > drought and then we’ll have even more reasons to >> fight. We’ll buy >> > more weapons from those democracies and in this way >> human beings will >> > prove themselves to be the stupidest animals on >> earth. >> > >> > Money and the Indian elections >> > >> > Whatever system of government you have, whether it is >> a military >> > dictatorship or a democracy, and you have that for a >> long time, >> > eventually big money manages to subvert it. That has >> begun to happen >> > even in a democracy (like India). For example, >> political parties need >> > a lot of publicity, but the media is also run by >> corporate money. If >> > you look at the big political parties like the >> Congress and the BJP, >> > you see how much money is being put out just in their >> advertising >> > budgets. Now where does all that come from? >> > >> > RSS and the Indian establishment >> > >> > The RSS has infiltrated everything to a great extent. >> In India, we >> > have 120-150 million Muslims and it’s considered a >> minority…It’s >> > impossible to not belong to a minority of some sort in >> India. Caste >> > or ethnicity or religion or whatever, in some way >> everyone belongs to >> > a minority. The fights that many of us are waging >> against the RSS and >> > against the BJP are to say that we live in a society >> which >> > accommodates everybody. Everybody doesn’t have to >> love everybody, but >> > everybody has to be accommodated.  The RSS has >> infiltrated the >> > (Indian) army as much as various kinds of Wahabism or >> other kinds of >> > religious ideology have infiltrated the ISI or the >> armed forces in >> > Pakistan. They are human beings like everyone else and >> they too get >> > influenced. >> > >> > Indian media and sensationalizing of news coming out >> from Pakistan >> > >> > I think the media in both countries play this game. >> Whenever >> > something happens here, they hype it up there, while >> when something >> > happens there, they hype the news here. We say that we >> live in times >> > of an information revolution and free press, but even >> then nobody >> > gets to know the complete picture… >> > >> > The Pakistani media is a little different from the >> Indian media. They >> > stand on a slightly different foundation. But both >> share the problem >> > of a lack of accountability…The trouble in India is >> that 90 per cent >> > of their revenue comes from the corporate >> sector…there’s increasing >> > privatization and corporatization of governance, >> education, health, >> > infrastructure and water management. So in India you >> see an open >> > criticism of governance, but very rarely criticism of >> corporations. >> > It’s a structural problem. It’s not about good >> people or bad people. >> > It’s just that you can’t expect a company to work >> against itself. >> > This is a very serious issue which needs to be sorted >> out. >> > >> > Is the Indian army a sacred cow? >> > >> > The Indian army is quite a sacred cow especially on TV >> and Bollywood. >> > But at the same time if you talk to the people in the >> Indian army, >> > they say that they feel that the media is very >> critical of them. I >> > don’t share that view. I think it is a sacred cow. >> People are willing >> > to give them a lot of leeway. >> > >> > Women and their fight for justice >> > >> > When women fight for justice, we must fight for every >> kind of justice… >> > We must fight for justice for men and justice for >> children. Because >> > if you fight for one kind of justice and you tolerate >> another, then >> > it’s a pretty hollow fight. You may not be able to >> fight every >> > battle, but you should be able to put yourself on the >> line and say I >> > believe this. >> > >> > >> > >> > Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> > The Sarai Programme at CSDS >> > Raqs Media Collective >> > shuddha at sarai.net >> > www.sarai.net >> > www.raqsmediacollective.net >> > >> > >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the >> city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >> with subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: >> > >> > >> > >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the >> city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >> with subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: >> >> >> >> -- >> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the >> city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >> with subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: > > > > -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From shuddha at sarai.net Sat May 16 15:32:52 2009 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 15:32:52 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Election Forecast In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70905131137o628bffb4mbdaca14a4ae42ee3@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70905131137o628bffb4mbdaca14a4ae42ee3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <065D7E49-91EB-4E4A-9D3D-5DF91713BB03@sarai.net> Famous Last Words ? > > Welcome New PM .......Welcome Advani Ji > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From sonia.jabbar at gmail.com Sat May 16 16:00:43 2009 From: sonia.jabbar at gmail.com (S. Jabbar) Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 16:00:43 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Election Forecast In-Reply-To: <065D7E49-91EB-4E4A-9D3D-5DF91713BB03@sarai.net> Message-ID: Past Master...Post Modern... Pre-Menstrual...? > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 15:32:52 +0530 > To: Pawan Durani > Cc: reader-list > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Election Forecast > > Famous Last Words ? > > Welcome New PM .......Welcome Advani Ji > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion > list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send > an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject > header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The > Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media > Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net _____ > ____________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on > media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To > unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List > archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Sat May 16 16:05:26 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 16:05:26 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Election Forecast In-Reply-To: References: <065D7E49-91EB-4E4A-9D3D-5DF91713BB03@sarai.net> Message-ID: Dear all The BJP and the Left have been shown the middle finger in these elections. And for all those in the forum who keep dismissing the Congress, do dismiss dynastic politics, but realize that NREGA, RTI and Right to Forest Land for tribals are important for the 'aam aadmi', so also other issues of livelihood, not your Golden Quadrilateral, economic disinvestment and Narendra Modi-Advani duo's 'strong leadership'. Concentrate on that. Otherwise keep seeing the middle finger shown by the rest of India to you too. Regards Rakesh From indersalim at gmail.com Sat May 16 16:22:20 2009 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 16:22:20 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Arundhati Roy in Karachi In-Reply-To: <929405.8989.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <929405.8989.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70905160352s6fc1f021h45236e9e5c3865af@mail.gmail.com> Dear Kshmendra Kaul with your permission, i am lifting the following from your earlier mail : AR (on the 'Taliban Boy'): "He was made in a factory that is producing this kind of mind(set). (The question is) who owns that factory, who funds it? Unless we deal with that factory, dealing with the boy doesn’t help us." > > KK: So what should be done about the 'Taliban Boy' while AR indulges in her vaguness of 'who owns the factory, who funds it?'? AR does not want her "Taliban Boy" dealt with. Should we in the meantime invite her 'Taliban Boy' to kill some more; behead some more; rape some more? the above quoted fragment is from a mail written by you, and i see there is KK, and i see KK wants some action against the Taliban boy, so do US. please correct me ,if i am reading it differently. about my use of expression ' lawyer' i appologize, but it was in a playful mood, not to hurt the sentiment, i rememember it was perhpas, about the no. of appricot trees on the roads in kashmir, but that was a small point, come on dear now, you feel i am disgusting ,so you said the following about me : "frighteningly delusional or shamelessly unethical in misrepresenting / misquoting / mis-attributing words and positions to others". dont u feel that this is a little more, but i have a smiling habit to eat it with a pinch of salt with love is On Sat, May 16, 2009 at 2:58 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Inder > > I do not know if the Mr. KK you refer to is me. If it is not then please > ignore this mail. > > If it is me you are referring to, then please clarify where have I > answered (as you put it) what Rahul as put as questions to you over your > earlier statements. Rahul wrote to you: > > """" > Inder Salim, > "The charge against Arundhati Roy is that why she chose not to speak the > language of US in Pakistan." > > Who made this charge? > > "The boy ( Taliban boy) should be killed instantly the moment he said that > ‘woman’ and ‘plastic bags’ should be banned. That is perhaps, the argument." > > Who made this argument? """""" > > Inder, either you are frighteningly delusional or shamelessly unethical in > misrepresenting / misquoting / mis-attributing words and positions to > others. > > Just a few days back I reminded you of this disgusting habit of yours. You > had the most peurile response by saying that you are not a lawyer and that > you 'infer'. > > Kshmendra > > --- On Fri, 5/15/09, Inder Salim wrote: > > From: Inder Salim > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Arundhati Roy in Karachi > To: "reader-list" > Date: Friday, May 15, 2009, 6:11 PM > > Dear Rahul > i think the question is already answered by Mr. K K > i only reflected > > love > is > > On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 4:01 PM, Rahul Asthana > wrote: >> >> Inder Salim, >> >> "The charge against Arundhati Roy is that why she chose not to speak >> the language of US in Pakistan." >> >> Who made this charge? >> >> "The boy ( Taliban boy >>> ) should be >>> killed instantly the moment he said that ‘woman’ and >>> ‘plastic bags’ >>> should be banned. That is perhaps, the argument." >> >> Who made this argument? >> >> Thanks >> Rahul >> >> >> --- On Fri, 5/15/09, Inder Salim wrote: >> >>> From: Inder Salim >>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Arundhati Roy in Karachi >>> To: "reader-list" >>> Date: Friday, May 15, 2009, 8:59 AM >>> Dear All, >>> >>> "You must be either very dumb or very rich if you fail >>> to notice that development stinks", says Gustavo Esteva, a >>> Mexican >>> activist and development critic. And in a article, couple >>> of years >>> back, Arundhati Roy wrote, “ The world is journeying on a >>> terrible >>> path “. >>> >>> I want to know who disagrees with the above two statements. >>> And those >>> who see the fanatic Muslim terrorist as the most poisonous >>> growth in >>> the happiness producing paddy fields of the world , which >>> we urgently >>> need  weeding,  then I disagree. >>> >>> The charge against Arundhati Roy is that why she chose not >>> to speak >>> the language of US in Pakistan.  The boy ( Taliban boy >>> ) should be >>> killed instantly the moment he said that ‘woman’ and >>> ‘plastic bags’ >>> should be banned. That is perhaps, the argument. >>> >>> Now who has put this tag ‘Taliban’ on the forehead of >>> millions of >>> Muslims in the world, who else, but the USA. Are not >>> talking about the >>> masters who play this game? If not why? >>> >>>  Is ISI and the Pakistani Establishment the only masters of >>> this boy? >>> What if USA/West is the hidden master of this game, and if >>> that is a >>> possibility, then how the police, who is thief himself will >>> catches >>> the thief?  Seeing it from a perspective of treatments >>> on canvas, this >>> handling of Af-Pak issue by USA is as unaesthetic as Iraq >>> war was. >>> This is bound to generate ugliness, but unfortunately, they >>> are >>> probably content with their actions, as usual. >>> >>>   Looking seriously at the problem ,  I think >>> 9/11 was a long term >>> investment for USA/West to harvest dividends. The threat, >>> which is >>> more projected than real,  to their securities has >>> already hardened >>> the boarders, and the  excuse to inspect/control the >>> weapons in our >>> backyards has become real. They almost say, that we should >>> know what >>> is  happening in your homes. The trouble is that our >>> knowledge of >>> their homes does not reveal that hidden agenda. >>> >>> Meanwhile, they will make us forget that it was their >>> willingness in >>> the first place to manufacture these weapons of mass >>> destruction, so, >>> we all will believe that ‘they there’ are right >>> and ‘we here’ are >>> wrong. They design the guns and bombs, they finance it, >>> they >>> distribute it, and they decide how to fix the >>> responsibility. >>> >>> We already know that taking a stand against the boy with >>> disdain for ‘ >>> they there’ is a demand of times, some sort of >>> pragmatism, so we need >>> to say yes, yes, let us kill the boy and thousand and >>> thousand of >>> other like him. We want development, even if it >>> ‘stinks’. >>> >>> This sound called USA/West has already killed half a >>> million in Iraq >>> and we still believe that the enemy of humanity is this >>> terrorist, >>> this terrorist only.  We must be naïve to give all >>> the benefit of >>> doubts to them. ( here, them and us is not a black and >>> white contrast, >>> but we need to know how much of fiction is weaved in the >>> us-like as >>> them-like, or even, vice versa. ) >>> >>> Sad, if we think that to kill this boy is the remedy to our >>> ills, then >>> how to let us go ahead with killing the entire >>> Taliabanized  society >>> in Pakistan and Afghanistan, which runs in millions. >>> Mr. Jamal, a >>> Pakistani Journalist said that there are half a million >>> hard core >>> units ( Jihadis/individuals ) from Madarasas ( schools ) in >>> Pakistan. >>> First, how to mark one by one, and how to change the >>> programmed grey >>> matter inside the head. As Ashish Nandy rightly pointed out >>> that >>> Modern societies have no previous  experience to deal >>> with a person >>> who is willing to die, for a cause, which is not >>> necessarily valid for >>> rest of us. >>> >>> The trouble begins when for example, a Megaphone Company is >>> delighted >>> to sell its product to thousands of mosques in thousands of >>> villages >>> in the these two countries. They are happy to push the >>> sales, but have >>> the so called peace generating  companies ever >>> campaigned against the >>> sale of their product to these companies. They should have >>> reminded >>> them that the muezzin does not need scientific means to >>> push religion >>> in the minds of people, but goodwill, trust, compassion and >>> simplicity >>> etc. But they do the reverse, they tell them lies, and try >>> all the >>> tricks to sell their product, and so  why it is >>> surprises us if we get >>> a Tabliban from such promotions. This is just a case in the >>> point. >>> >>> The trouble begins here, for example, terrorist uprising in >>> Kashmir >>> created all the violence against the innocent people in the >>> valley. >>> Both Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims suffered terribly, and now, >>> yes, when >>> there is a visible mistrust against them ( >>> terrorists) in the valley, >>> and we feel people are returning back to normal life, how >>> are we going >>> to define ‘peace’ and ‘development’ in real sense >>> of the word. What is >>> normal life? And if it means a return to the decadence and >>> a dumb >>> chase of American style of living, at a terrible cost of >>> our >>> environment and cultural moorings, then what should I say. >>> >>> This I am saying, even if people will forget  the core >>> Kashmir issue >>> which is presently unresolved. >>> >>> Just by killing the  remaining 3000 odd terrorist in >>> the valley, I >>> don’t know what we, the so called peace loving people, >>> are going to >>> achieve. >>> >>>  I never said, that the presence of terrorists in the >>> valley is/was a >>> future catalyst to resolve the issues which I have raised, >>> but their >>> absence too wont change the rules of the game which are >>> nothing ,but >>> what Gustavo’s ‘stink’ generating projects talk >>> about. >>> >>> Will  there be a solid peace in the region. I doubt. >>> The propaganda >>> right now is that the  terrorist caused the delay in >>> development. >>> Logically, yes, but what development. >>> >>> May be we need to define this animal called development >>> first before >>> we go to define the terrorist. >>> >>> The trouble begins, here again , as Mr. Jamals interviewer >>> pointed >>> out, that the Terrorist can not lead a normal life even >>> after the >>> issue is resolved. So how to treat the situation? >>> >>> So what is the way out ? >>> >>> Love and regards >>> Inder salim >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 6:07 PM, Kshmendra Kaul >>> wrote: >>> > Arundhati Roy (AR) is in fashion. Rebel in fashion. A >>> rebel with many causes to whine about with no solutions to >>> offer. Since her grip on realities is uncertain, all >>> that she can indulge in is vague intellectualising. That >>> has always been in demand. Greater the obtuseness, easier >>> it is to be highly thought of by unthinking minds. >>> > >>> > Zubeida Mustafa knowingly or unwittingly brings out >>> the vaguness of AR when she says "Roy’s advice to avoid >>> being ‘with us or against us’ has implications she >>> didn’t elucidate". Zubeida goes on to say "In times when >>> action is needed and a position has to be taken — even if >>> verbally — inaction or neutrality unwittingly props up the >>> status quo." >>> > >>> > How shallow minded AR is, gets highlighted in what >>> are ostensibly quotes from her speech(es) at the WAF meet. >>> > >>> > AR: "In India, there are two kinds of terrorism: one >>> is Islamic terrorism and the other Maoist terrorism. But >>> this term terrorism, we must ask, what do they mean by >>> it. " >>> > >>> > KK: Note the word "they". Who is this "they"? Why did >>> AR fail to mention that there is also public discourse on >>> 'Hindu terrorism' and 'Economic terrorism'.  Even on >>> 'State terrorism' to some degree. What is this "they" she is >>> trying to create? Or, is she trying to say there is no >>> 'terrorism' in India and that it is just a figment of the >>> imagination of the "they"? >>> > >>> > AR: "I’m here to understand what you mean when you >>> say Taliban." >>> > >>> > KK : AR also spoke about a Taliban Boy. How did she >>> know the boy was "Taliban" if she is yet to understand what >>> they mean by "Taliban" in Pakistan? She seems to have her >>> own understanding of that term "Taliban". Why doesnt she >>> tell us what she means by "Taliban"? >>> > >>> > AR (On Taliban): "Do you mean a militant? Do you mean >>> an ideology? Exactly what is it that is being fought? That >>> needs to be clarified. >>> > I think both needs to be fought. But if it’s an >>> ideology it has to be fought differently, while if it’s a >>> person with a gun then it has to be fought differently." >>> > >>> > KK: Is AR such an ignorant idiot that she cannot see >>> that militancy finds it's justifications and reassurances >>> from the ideology? What is shameful about AR is that >>> she uses the term 'militant' for those who have indulged in >>> the most heinous of acts as Taliban and that has gravitated >>> many women in Pakistan (under threat to their lives) to >>> step-out and speak-out against the Taliban. >>> > >>> > AR: "In India, they have been fighting insurgencies >>> military since 1947 and it has become a more dangerous >>> place." >>> > >>> > KK: Note the "they" word again. But, what would AR >>> have India do with those that she herself calls >>> "insurgencies"? AR vagueness without any solutions. And, >>> some doublespeake. In India she often hints at support for >>> separatists. Why does she not espouse for India similar >>> attitudes that she advocates in Pakistan where she proclaims >>> "I think both needs to be fought" (whether militant or >>> ideology)? >>> > >>> > AR (on the 'Taliban Boy'): "He was made in a factory >>> that is producing this kind of mind(set). (The question is) >>> who owns that factory, who funds it? Unless we deal with >>> that factory, dealing with the boy doesn’t help us." >>> > >>> > KK: So what should be done about the 'Taliban >>> Boy' while AR indulges in her vaguness of 'who owns the >>> factory, who funds it?'? AR does not want her "Taliban Boy" >>> dealt with. Should we in the meantime invite her 'Taliban >>> Boy' to kill some more; behead some more; rape some more? >>> > >>> > AR: "The RSS has infiltrated the (Indian) army as much >>> as various kinds of Wahabism or other kinds of religious >>> ideology have infiltrated the ISI or the armed forces in >>> Pakistan." >>> > >>> > KK: Note the words "as much". AR seems to know much >>> more about the Indian Army then the rest of India knows for >>> her to bring about an equivalence in the 'religion >>> infiltration' into the Armed Forces of India and Pakistan. >>> More likely is that she knows very little about the >>> anxieties in Pakistan about the extent to which there is >>> widespread suspicion (in Pakistan and elsewhere) about the >>> continued influence exerted within the ISI and the Armed >>> Forces of Pakistan by hardline religious ideology inspite >>> of major efforts (especially by Musharraf) to unshackle >>> them. >>> > >>> > Kshmendra >>> > >>> > --- On Wed, 5/13/09, Shuddhabrata Sengupta >>> wrote: >>> > >>> > >>> > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta >>> > Subject: [Reader-list] Arundhati Roy in Karachi >>> > To: "reader-list at sarai.net >>> list" >>> > Date: Wednesday, May 13, 2009, 8:07 AM >>> > >>> > >>> > Dear All, >>> > >>> > The Delhi based writer Arundhati Roy has recently been >>> in Karachi, >>> > Pakistan at the invitation of civil society >>> organizations and womens >>> > rights groups. Here are two reports from Dawn, a >>> Karachi based daily, >>> > about meetings she attended (with an organization >>> titled 'Womens >>> > Action Forum') and interactions she had. I hope that >>> they will be of >>> > interest to people on the list. >>> > >>> > regards, >>> > >>> > Shuddha >>> > ------------------------------ >>> > 1. >>> > >>> > Arundhati Roy and the WAF >>> > By Zubeida Mustafa >>> > Wednesday, 13 May, 2009 >>> > http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/ >>> > pakistan/11-arundhati-roy-and-the-waf--02 >>> > >>> > ‘WOMEN to reclaim public spaces: a programme of >>> defiance and >>> > resistance.’ That is how the Women’s Action Forum >>> defined the meeting >>> > it held last Friday to mobilise public opinion against >>> extremism. >>> > >>> > Although WAF’s concern to protect the space women >>> have created in the >>> > public mainstream has been on its agenda for some >>> time, this goal has >>> > acquired urgency in the wake of the events in Swat. >>> The Nizam-i-Adl >>> > Regulation in Malakand Division has brought people >>> face to face with >>> > the ugly reality of the Talibanisation phenomenon in >>> the rural >>> > backwaters as well as in modern urban centres. >>> > >>> > The Karachi meeting was well-attended by WAF’s >>> standards. It is not >>> > easy to mobilise women for any cause in this city of >>> multiple >>> > identities. The metropolis has a diversity of >>> populations, cultures, >>> > languages and economic interests posing a challenge to >>> bring women >>> > together on a single platform. Learning from its >>> experience of the >>> > lawyers’ movement that had succeeded in uniting the >>> extreme right and >>> > centrist political parties and the professionals on a >>> single-point >>> > agenda for two years, WAF also decided to make >>> Talibanisation and >>> > women the focal issue. >>> > >>> > That strategy paid off. Women had already been >>> galvanised by the >>> > video showing the flogging of a teenaged girl in Swat >>> that activist >>> > Samar Minallah courageously brought to the world >>> media’s attention, >>> > invoking in the process the wrath of the Taliban whose >>> fatwa declared >>> > her as wajibul qatl. The oppression of women is an >>> issue that cuts >>> > across classes to touch every female raw nerve. >>> Whether it is the >>> > smartly turned-out high-society woman or the working >>> woman who slaves >>> > all day long to feed an army of children and a >>> drug-addict husband or >>> > even the heavily veiled orthodox woman, each type, >>> with few >>> > exceptions, has expressed her horror at the flogging >>> incident. >>> > >>> > Hence on this occasion WAF managed to bring a diverse >>> crowd together >>> > — the activists reaching out to the grassroots such >>> as Amar Sindhu >>> > from Sindh University Hyderabad, Parveen Rahman from >>> the Orangi Pilot >>> > Project and Sadiqa Salahuddin whose Indus Resource >>> Centre runs >>> > schools in the interior of Sindh, as well as the >>> elites sitting side >>> > by side with the three van-loads of women from Neelum >>> Colony who >>> > clean the homes of the rich and will be starting their >>> adult literacy >>> > classes from next week, courtesy Shabina’s Garage >>> School. >>> > >>> > The variety of speakers focusing on the theme of >>> women’s oppression >>> > by the Taliban found a responsive audience. But the >>> question that >>> > made many ponder was: what next? Can this interest be >>> sustained? If >>> > they had not already started probing for answers, the >>> thought- >>> > provoking speech by Arundhati Roy, the renowned Indian >>> writer and >>> > activist, did the trick. Coming from New Delhi on a >>> solidarity >>> > mission to WAF’s meeting. Roy raised four issues: >>> > >>> > • What do we mean by the Taliban and what gave birth >>> to them? >>> > >>> > • Define your own space and do not surrender it. >>> > >>> > • Don’t allow yourself to be forced into making >>> choices of the ‘with >>> > us or against us’ type. >>> > >>> > • Don’t be selective in your injustices. >>> > >>> > These should provide food for thought for those >>> struggling against >>> > oppression. Without being specific, Roy exhorted her >>> audience to look >>> > into the structures and systems that lead to a >>> situation of such >>> > extreme oppression, some of which is rooted in the >>> class conflict. >>> > She believes one has to take a ‘total view’ of the >>> matter, which she >>> > admitted she had come to Pakistan to understand. >>> > >>> > The fact is that we live in a largely grey area where >>> the lines are >>> > not sharply drawn. There is a lot of overlapping >>> between issues >>> > touching gender, class, ethnicity, culture, political >>> power and >>> > economic gains. It is this reality one has to >>> recognise and see how >>> > the contradictions can be addressed. The demand to >>> take sides >>> > unambiguously, expressed so vividly in the days >>> following 9/11 by >>> > George Bush as ‘You are with us or against us,’ >>> can create a dilemma >>> > for people when negotiating these grey areas. >>> > >>> > Roy’s advice to avoid being ‘with us or against >>> us’ has implications >>> > she didn’t elucidate. In times when action is needed >>> and a position >>> > has to be taken — even if verbally — inaction or >>> neutrality >>> > unwittingly props up the status quo. If the status quo >>> has been >>> > created by inimical forces ostensibly now fighting >>> their self-created >>> > Frankenstein, where does one go? >>> > >>> > The practical approach would be to prioritise >>> strategies that can be >>> > adapted to changing circumstances. And what should >>> these be? Here Roy >>> > has a point when she says that one cannot be selective >>> in the >>> > justices one espouses and the injustices one >>> denounces. In this >>> > context Pakistanis find themselves trapped between the >>> devil and the >>> > deep sea. Attempting to rectify a problem here and >>> another there >>> > really doesn’t help because our entire state >>> structure is colonial, >>> > as a booklet titled Making Pakistan a Tenable State >>> points out. >>> > >>> > Produced by 17 intellectuals, with Dr Mubashir Hasan >>> as the driving >>> > force, the book describes the state structure as being >>> ‘based on the >>> > concentration of political and administrative power in >>> the steel >>> > frame of the civil services under the protection of >>> the armed forces. >>> > The structure could be defined as >>> feudal-military-bureaucratic.’ >>> > >>> > The problem is systemic. In a state ruled by ‘a >>> government of the >>> > elites, by the elites, for the elites’ it is >>> inevitable that it is >>> > authoritarian and exploitative. Change can come when >>> there is >>> > mobilisation of the people for change. When WAF >>> mobilises women to >>> > fight against injustices it prepares them to also >>> fight for change. >>> > The need is to empower them and instill confidence in >>> them. >>> > >>> > Two women I have written about who are fighting for >>> change come from >>> > the poorest of the poor and theirs is not a feminist >>> agenda. They are >>> > fighting to have a roof above their heads. One is the >>> wife of Walidad >>> > from Muhammad Essa Khaskheli who came all the way to >>> Karachi in the >>> > heat of summer to save her goth from being snapped up >>> by a feudal in >>> > the neighbourhood. >>> > >>> > The other is Parveen whose one-room ‘mansion’ in a >>> katchi abadi of >>> > Clifton is now under threat of demolition. She is >>> resisting the >>> > exploitative system that cannot provide shelter to the >>> poor. >>> > Initially she hesitated — was it ‘proper’ for a >>> woman to protest she >>> > had asked me. When encouraged she decided it was. >>> These are women on >>> > the way to empowerment and that is WAF’s agenda. >>> > >>> >   2. >>> > >>> > ‘I’m here to understand what you mean by >>> Taliban’ >>> > by Salman Siddiqui >>> > Friday, 08 May, 2009 >>> > http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/ >>> > pakistan/arundhati-roy-sal-02 >>> > >>> > Is there a threat of Talibanisation engulfing the >>> entire region? >>> > >>> > I think it has already engulfed our region. I think >>> there’s a need >>> > for a very clear thinking (on this issue of >>> Talibanisation). In >>> > India, there are two kinds of terrorism: one is >>> Islamic terrorism and >>> > the other Maoist terrorism. But this term terrorism, >>> we must ask, >>> > what do they mean by it. >>> > >>> > In Pakistan, I’m here to understand what they mean >>> by this term. When >>> > we say we must fight the Taliban or must defeat them, >>> what does it >>> > mean? I’m here to understand what you mean when you >>> say Taliban. Do >>> > you mean a militant? Do you mean an ideology? Exactly >>> what is it that >>> > is being fought? That needs to be clarified. >>> > >>> > I think both needs to be fought. But if it’s an >>> ideology it has to be >>> > fought differently, while if it’s a person with a >>> gun then it has to >>> > be fought differently. We know from the history of the >>> war on terror >>> > that a military strategy is only making matters worse >>> all over the >>> > world. The war on terror has made the world a more >>> dangerous place. >>> > In India, they have been fighting insurgencies >>> military since 1947 >>> > and it has become a more dangerous place. >>> > >>> > Swat and the Taliban boy >>> > >>> > It is very important for me to understand what exactly >>> is going in >>> > Swat. How did it start? A Taliban boy asked me why >>> women can’t be >>> > like plastic bags and banned. The point is that the >>> plastic bag was >>> > made in a factory but so was the boy. He was made in a >>> factory that >>> > is producing this kind of mind(set). (The question is) >>> who owns that >>> > factory, who funds it? Unless we deal with that >>> factory, dealing with >>> > the boy doesn’t help us. >>> > >>> > Water is the main issue >>> > >>> > One danger in Pakistan is that we talk about the >>> threat of Taliban so >>> > much that other important issues lose focus. In my >>> view, the problem >>> > of water in the world will become the most important >>> problem.  I >>> > think big dams are economically unviable, >>> environmentally >>> > unsustainable and politically undemocratic. They are a >>> way of taking >>> > away a river from the poor and giving it to the rich. >>> Like in India, >>> > there’s an issue of SEZs (Special Economic Zones), >>> whereby the land >>> > of the people are given to corporations. But the >>> bigger problem is >>> > that there are making dams and giving water to the >>> industries. This >>> > way the people who live in villages by the streams and >>> rivers have no >>> > water for themselves. So building dams is one of the >>> most >>> > ecologically destructive things that you can do. >>> > >>> > Fight over Siachen glacier >>> > >>> > There are thousands of Pakistani and Indian soldiers >>> deployed on the >>> > Siachen glacier. Both of our countries are spending >>> billions of >>> > dollars on high altitude warfare and weapons. The >>> whole of the >>> > Siachen glacier is sort of an icy monument to human >>> folly. Each day >>> > it is being filled with ice axes, old boots, tents and >>> so on. >>> > Meanwhile, that battlefield is melting. Siachen >>> glacier is about half >>> > its size now. It’s not melting because the Indian >>> and Pakistani >>> > soldiers are on it. But it’s because people >>> somewhere on the other >>> > side of the world are leading a good life….in >>> countries that call >>> > themselves democracies that believe in human rights >>> and free speech. >>> > Their economies depend on selling weapons to both of >>> us. Now, when >>> > that glacier melts, there will be floods first, then >>> there will be a >>> > drought and then we’ll have even more reasons to >>> fight. We’ll buy >>> > more weapons from those democracies and in this way >>> human beings will >>> > prove themselves to be the stupidest animals on >>> earth. >>> > >>> > Money and the Indian elections >>> > >>> > Whatever system of government you have, whether it is >>> a military >>> > dictatorship or a democracy, and you have that for a >>> long time, >>> > eventually big money manages to subvert it. That has >>> begun to happen >>> > even in a democracy (like India). For example, >>> political parties need >>> > a lot of publicity, but the media is also run by >>> corporate money. If >>> > you look at the big political parties like the >>> Congress and the BJP, >>> > you see how much money is being put out just in their >>> advertising >>> > budgets. Now where does all that come from? >>> > >>> > RSS and the Indian establishment >>> > >>> > The RSS has infiltrated everything to a great extent. >>> In India, we >>> > have 120-150 million Muslims and it’s considered a >>> minority…It’s >>> > impossible to not belong to a minority of some sort in >>> India. Caste >>> > or ethnicity or religion or whatever, in some way >>> everyone belongs to >>> > a minority. The fights that many of us are waging >>> against the RSS and >>> > against the BJP are to say that we live in a society >>> which >>> > accommodates everybody. Everybody doesn’t have to >>> love everybody, but >>> > everybody has to be accommodated.  The RSS has >>> infiltrated the >>> > (Indian) army as much as various kinds of Wahabism or >>> other kinds of >>> > religious ideology have infiltrated the ISI or the >>> armed forces in >>> > Pakistan. They are human beings like everyone else and >>> they too get >>> > influenced. >>> > >>> > Indian media and sensationalizing of news coming out >>> from Pakistan >>> > >>> > I think the media in both countries play this game. >>> Whenever >>> > something happens here, they hype it up there, while >>> when something >>> > happens there, they hype the news here. We say that we >>> live in times >>> > of an information revolution and free press, but even >>> then nobody >>> > gets to know the complete picture… >>> > >>> > The Pakistani media is a little different from the >>> Indian media. They >>> > stand on a slightly different foundation. But both >>> share the problem >>> > of a lack of accountability…The trouble in India is >>> that 90 per cent >>> > of their revenue comes from the corporate >>> sector…there’s increasing >>> > privatization and corporatization of governance, >>> education, health, >>> > infrastructure and water management. So in India you >>> see an open >>> > criticism of governance, but very rarely criticism of >>> corporations. >>> > It’s a structural problem. It’s not about good >>> people or bad people. >>> > It’s just that you can’t expect a company to work >>> against itself. >>> > This is a very serious issue which needs to be sorted >>> out. >>> > >>> > Is the Indian army a sacred cow? >>> > >>> > The Indian army is quite a sacred cow especially on TV >>> and Bollywood. >>> > But at the same time if you talk to the people in the >>> Indian army, >>> > they say that they feel that the media is very >>> critical of them. I >>> > don’t share that view. I think it is a sacred cow. >>> People are willing >>> > to give them a lot of leeway. >>> > >>> > Women and their fight for justice >>> > >>> > When women fight for justice, we must fight for every >>> kind of justice… >>> > We must fight for justice for men and justice for >>> children. Because >>> > if you fight for one kind of justice and you tolerate >>> another, then >>> > it’s a pretty hollow fight. You may not be able to >>> fight every >>> > battle, but you should be able to put yourself on the >>> line and say I >>> > believe this. >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > Shuddhabrata Sengupta >>> > The Sarai Programme at CSDS >>> > Raqs Media Collective >>> > shuddha at sarai.net >>> > www.sarai.net >>> > www.raqsmediacollective.net >>> > >>> > >>> > _________________________________________ >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the >>> city. >>> > Critiques & Collaborations >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >>> with subscribe in the subject header. >>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> > List archive: >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > _________________________________________ >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the >>> city. >>> > Critiques & Collaborations >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >>> with subscribe in the subject header. >>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> > List archive: >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> http://indersalim.livejournal.com >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the >>> city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >>> with subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: >> >> >> >> > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sat May 16 18:01:09 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 05:31:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Arundhati Roy in Karachi Message-ID: <13550.91554.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Inder   Nothing in what you have quoted of mine even remotely suggests that there is a charge made by me against AR that she did not speak the language of the US in Pakistan or argued by me that the Taliban Boy should have been killed instantly.   I suggest you stop this habit of misrepresenting another person's words and stop making inferences that have no foundation with similar malicious intent. You make it impossible for you being considered as someone who is serious about a conversation.   Kshmendra   --- On Sat, 5/16/09, Inder Salim wrote: From: Inder Salim Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Arundhati Roy in Karachi To: "reader-list" Date: Saturday, May 16, 2009, 4:22 PM Dear Kshmendra Kaul with your permission, i am lifting  the following from your earlier mail : AR (on the 'Taliban Boy'): "He was made in a factory that is producing this kind of mind(set). (The question is) who owns that factory, who funds it? Unless we deal with that factory, dealing with the boy doesn’t help us." > > KK: So what should be done about the 'Taliban Boy' while AR indulges in her vaguness of 'who owns the factory, who funds it?'? AR does not want her "Taliban Boy" dealt with. Should we in the meantime invite her 'Taliban Boy' to kill some more; behead some more; rape some more? the above quoted fragment is from a mail written by you, and i see there is KK,  and i see KK wants some action against the Taliban boy, so do US. please correct me ,if  i am reading it differently. about my use of expression ' lawyer' i appologize, but it was in a playful mood, not to hurt the sentiment, i rememember it was perhpas, about the no. of appricot trees on the roads in kashmir, but that was a small point, come on dear now, you feel i am disgusting ,so you said the following about me : "frighteningly delusional or shamelessly unethical in misrepresenting / misquoting / mis-attributing words and positions to others". dont u feel that this is a little more, but i have a smiling habit to eat it with a pinch of salt with love is On Sat, May 16, 2009 at 2:58 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Inder > > I do not know if the Mr. KK you refer to is me. If it is not then please > ignore this mail. > > If it is me you are referring to, then please clarify where have I > answered (as you put it) what Rahul as put as questions to you over your > earlier statements. Rahul wrote to you: > > """" > Inder Salim, > "The charge against Arundhati Roy is that why she chose not to speak the > language of US in Pakistan." > > Who made this charge? > > "The boy ( Taliban boy) should be killed instantly the moment he said that > ‘woman’ and ‘plastic bags’ should be banned. That is perhaps, the argument." > > Who made this argument? """""" > > Inder, either you are frighteningly delusional or shamelessly unethical in > misrepresenting / misquoting / mis-attributing words and positions to > others. > > Just a few days back I reminded you of this disgusting habit of yours. You > had the most peurile response by saying that you are not a lawyer and that > you 'infer'. > > Kshmendra > > --- On Fri, 5/15/09, Inder Salim wrote: > > From: Inder Salim > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Arundhati Roy in Karachi > To: "reader-list" > Date: Friday, May 15, 2009, 6:11 PM > > Dear Rahul > i think the question is already answered by Mr. K K > i only reflected > > love > is > > On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 4:01 PM, Rahul Asthana > wrote: >> >> Inder Salim, >> >> "The charge against Arundhati Roy is that why she chose not to speak >> the language of US in Pakistan." >> >> Who made this charge? >> >> "The boy ( Taliban boy >>> ) should be >>> killed instantly the moment he said that ‘woman’ and >>> ‘plastic bags’ >>> should be banned. That is perhaps, the argument." >> >> Who made this argument? >> >> Thanks >> Rahul >> >> >> --- On Fri, 5/15/09, Inder Salim wrote: >> >>> From: Inder Salim >>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Arundhati Roy in Karachi >>> To: "reader-list" >>> Date: Friday, May 15, 2009, 8:59 AM >>> Dear All, >>> >>> "You must be either very dumb or very rich if you fail >>> to notice that development stinks", says Gustavo Esteva, a >>> Mexican >>> activist and development critic. And in a article, couple >>> of years >>> back, Arundhati Roy wrote, “ The world is journeying on a >>> terrible >>> path “. >>> >>> I want to know who disagrees with the above two statements. >>> And those >>> who see the fanatic Muslim terrorist as the most poisonous >>> growth in >>> the happiness producing paddy fields of the world , which >>> we urgently >>> need  weeding,  then I disagree. >>> >>> The charge against Arundhati Roy is that why she chose not >>> to speak >>> the language of US in Pakistan.  The boy ( Taliban boy >>> ) should be >>> killed instantly the moment he said that ‘woman’ and >>> ‘plastic bags’ >>> should be banned. That is perhaps, the argument. >>> >>> Now who has put this tag ‘Taliban’ on the forehead of >>> millions of >>> Muslims in the world, who else, but the USA. Are not >>> talking about the >>> masters who play this game? If not why? >>> >>>  Is ISI and the Pakistani Establishment the only masters of >>> this boy? >>> What if USA/West is the hidden master of this game, and if >>> that is a >>> possibility, then how the police, who is thief himself will >>> catches >>> the thief?  Seeing it from a perspective of treatments >>> on canvas, this >>> handling of Af-Pak issue by USA is as unaesthetic as Iraq >>> war was. >>> This is bound to generate ugliness, but unfortunately, they >>> are >>> probably content with their actions, as usual. >>> >>>   Looking seriously at the problem ,  I think >>> 9/11 was a long term >>> investment for USA/West to harvest dividends. The threat, >>> which is >>> more projected than real,  to their securities has >>> already hardened >>> the boarders, and the  excuse to inspect/control the >>> weapons in our >>> backyards has become real. They almost say, that we should >>> know what >>> is  happening in your homes. The trouble is that our >>> knowledge of >>> their homes does not reveal that hidden agenda. >>> >>> Meanwhile, they will make us forget that it was their >>> willingness in >>> the first place to manufacture these weapons of mass >>> destruction, so, >>> we all will believe that ‘they there’ are right >>> and ‘we here’ are >>> wrong. They design the guns and bombs, they finance it, >>> they >>> distribute it, and they decide how to fix the >>> responsibility. >>> >>> We already know that taking a stand against the boy with >>> disdain for ‘ >>> they there’ is a demand of times, some sort of >>> pragmatism, so we need >>> to say yes, yes, let us kill the boy and thousand and >>> thousand of >>> other like him. We want development, even if it >>> ‘stinks’. >>> >>> This sound called USA/West has already killed half a >>> million in Iraq >>> and we still believe that the enemy of humanity is this >>> terrorist, >>> this terrorist only.  We must be naïve to give all >>> the benefit of >>> doubts to them. ( here, them and us is not a black and >>> white contrast, >>> but we need to know how much of fiction is weaved in the >>> us-like as >>> them-like, or even, vice versa. ) >>> >>> Sad, if we think that to kill this boy is the remedy to our >>> ills, then >>> how to let us go ahead with killing the entire >>> Taliabanized  society >>> in Pakistan and Afghanistan, which runs in millions. >>> Mr. Jamal, a >>> Pakistani Journalist said that there are half a million >>> hard core >>> units ( Jihadis/individuals ) from Madarasas ( schools ) in >>> Pakistan. >>> First, how to mark one by one, and how to change the >>> programmed grey >>> matter inside the head. As Ashish Nandy rightly pointed out >>> that >>> Modern societies have no previous  experience to deal >>> with a person >>> who is willing to die, for a cause, which is not >>> necessarily valid for >>> rest of us. >>> >>> The trouble begins when for example, a Megaphone Company is >>> delighted >>> to sell its product to thousands of mosques in thousands of >>> villages >>> in the these two countries. They are happy to push the >>> sales, but have >>> the so called peace generating  companies ever >>> campaigned against the >>> sale of their product to these companies. They should have >>> reminded >>> them that the muezzin does not need scientific means to >>> push religion >>> in the minds of people, but goodwill, trust, compassion and >>> simplicity >>> etc. But they do the reverse, they tell them lies, and try >>> all the >>> tricks to sell their product, and so  why it is >>> surprises us if we get >>> a Tabliban from such promotions. This is just a case in the >>> point. >>> >>> The trouble begins here, for example, terrorist uprising in >>> Kashmir >>> created all the violence against the innocent people in the >>> valley. >>> Both Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims suffered terribly, and now, >>> yes, when >>> there is a visible mistrust against them ( >>> terrorists) in the valley, >>> and we feel people are returning back to normal life, how >>> are we going >>> to define ‘peace’ and ‘development’ in real sense >>> of the word. What is >>> normal life? And if it means a return to the decadence and >>> a dumb >>> chase of American style of living, at a terrible cost of >>> our >>> environment and cultural moorings, then what should I say. >>> >>> This I am saying, even if people will forget  the core >>> Kashmir issue >>> which is presently unresolved. >>> >>> Just by killing the  remaining 3000 odd terrorist in >>> the valley, I >>> don’t know what we, the so called peace loving people, >>> are going to >>> achieve. >>> >>>  I never said, that the presence of terrorists in the >>> valley is/was a >>> future catalyst to resolve the issues which I have raised, >>> but their >>> absence too wont change the rules of the game which are >>> nothing ,but >>> what Gustavo’s ‘stink’ generating projects talk >>> about. >>> >>> Will  there be a solid peace in the region. I doubt. >>> The propaganda >>> right now is that the  terrorist caused the delay in >>> development. >>> Logically, yes, but what development. >>> >>> May be we need to define this animal called development >>> first before >>> we go to define the terrorist. >>> >>> The trouble begins, here again , as Mr. Jamals interviewer >>> pointed >>> out, that the Terrorist can not lead a normal life even >>> after the >>> issue is resolved. So how to treat the situation? >>> >>> So what is the way out ? >>> >>> Love and regards >>> Inder salim >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 6:07 PM, Kshmendra Kaul >>> wrote: >>> > Arundhati Roy (AR) is in fashion. Rebel in fashion. A >>> rebel with many causes to whine about with no solutions to >>> offer. Since her grip on realities is uncertain, all >>> that she can indulge in is vague intellectualising. That >>> has always been in demand. Greater the obtuseness, easier >>> it is to be highly thought of by unthinking minds. >>> > >>> > Zubeida Mustafa knowingly or unwittingly brings out >>> the vaguness of AR when she says "Roy’s advice to avoid >>> being ‘with us or against us’ has implications she >>> didn’t elucidate". Zubeida goes on to say "In times when >>> action is needed and a position has to be taken — even if >>> verbally — inaction or neutrality unwittingly props up the >>> status quo." >>> > >>> > How shallow minded AR is, gets highlighted in what >>> are ostensibly quotes from her speech(es) at the WAF meet. >>> > >>> > AR: "In India, there are two kinds of terrorism: one >>> is Islamic terrorism and the other Maoist terrorism. But >>> this term terrorism, we must ask, what do they mean by >>> it. " >>> > >>> > KK: Note the word "they". Who is this "they"? Why did >>> AR fail to mention that there is also public discourse on >>> 'Hindu terrorism' and 'Economic terrorism'.  Even on >>> 'State terrorism' to some degree. What is this "they" she is >>> trying to create? Or, is she trying to say there is no >>> 'terrorism' in India and that it is just a figment of the >>> imagination of the "they"? >>> > >>> > AR: "I’m here to understand what you mean when you >>> say Taliban." >>> > >>> > KK : AR also spoke about a Taliban Boy. How did she >>> know the boy was "Taliban" if she is yet to understand what >>> they mean by "Taliban" in Pakistan? She seems to have her >>> own understanding of that term "Taliban". Why doesnt she >>> tell us what she means by "Taliban"? >>> > >>> > AR (On Taliban): "Do you mean a militant? Do you mean >>> an ideology? Exactly what is it that is being fought? That >>> needs to be clarified. >>> > I think both needs to be fought. But if it’s an >>> ideology it has to be fought differently, while if it’s a >>> person with a gun then it has to be fought differently." >>> > >>> > KK: Is AR such an ignorant idiot that she cannot see >>> that militancy finds it's justifications and reassurances >>> from the ideology? What is shameful about AR is that >>> she uses the term 'militant' for those who have indulged in >>> the most heinous of acts as Taliban and that has gravitated >>> many women in Pakistan (under threat to their lives) to >>> step-out and speak-out against the Taliban. >>> > >>> > AR: "In India, they have been fighting insurgencies >>> military since 1947 and it has become a more dangerous >>> place." >>> > >>> > KK: Note the "they" word again. But, what would AR >>> have India do with those that she herself calls >>> "insurgencies"? AR vagueness without any solutions. And, >>> some doublespeake. In India she often hints at support for >>> separatists. Why does she not espouse for India similar >>> attitudes that she advocates in Pakistan where she proclaims >>> "I think both needs to be fought" (whether militant or >>> ideology)? >>> > >>> > AR (on the 'Taliban Boy'): "He was made in a factory >>> that is producing this kind of mind(set). (The question is) >>> who owns that factory, who funds it? Unless we deal with >>> that factory, dealing with the boy doesn’t help us." >>> > >>> > KK: So what should be done about the 'Taliban >>> Boy' while AR indulges in her vaguness of 'who owns the >>> factory, who funds it?'? AR does not want her "Taliban Boy" >>> dealt with. Should we in the meantime invite her 'Taliban >>> Boy' to kill some more; behead some more; rape some more? >>> > >>> > AR: "The RSS has infiltrated the (Indian) army as much >>> as various kinds of Wahabism or other kinds of religious >>> ideology have infiltrated the ISI or the armed forces in >>> Pakistan." >>> > >>> > KK: Note the words "as much". AR seems to know much >>> more about the Indian Army then the rest of India knows for >>> her to bring about an equivalence in the 'religion >>> infiltration' into the Armed Forces of India and Pakistan. >>> More likely is that she knows very little about the >>> anxieties in Pakistan about the extent to which there is >>> widespread suspicion (in Pakistan and elsewhere) about the >>> continued influence exerted within the ISI and the Armed >>> Forces of Pakistan by hardline religious ideology inspite >>> of major efforts (especially by Musharraf) to unshackle >>> them. >>> > >>> > Kshmendra >>> > >>> > --- On Wed, 5/13/09, Shuddhabrata Sengupta >>> wrote: >>> > >>> > >>> > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta >>> > Subject: [Reader-list] Arundhati Roy in Karachi >>> > To: "reader-list at sarai.net >>> list" >>> > Date: Wednesday, May 13, 2009, 8:07 AM >>> > >>> > >>> > Dear All, >>> > >>> > The Delhi based writer Arundhati Roy has recently been >>> in Karachi, >>> > Pakistan at the invitation of civil society >>> organizations and womens >>> > rights groups. Here are two reports from Dawn, a >>> Karachi based daily, >>> > about meetings she attended (with an organization >>> titled 'Womens >>> > Action Forum') and interactions she had. I hope that >>> they will be of >>> > interest to people on the list. >>> > >>> > regards, >>> > >>> > Shuddha >>> > ------------------------------ >>> > 1. >>> > >>> > Arundhati Roy and the WAF >>> > By Zubeida Mustafa >>> > Wednesday, 13 May, 2009 >>> > http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/ >>> > pakistan/11-arundhati-roy-and-the-waf--02 >>> > >>> > ‘WOMEN to reclaim public spaces: a programme of >>> defiance and >>> > resistance.’ That is how the Women’s Action Forum >>> defined the meeting >>> > it held last Friday to mobilise public opinion against >>> extremism. >>> > >>> > Although WAF’s concern to protect the space women >>> have created in the >>> > public mainstream has been on its agenda for some >>> time, this goal has >>> > acquired urgency in the wake of the events in Swat. >>> The Nizam-i-Adl >>> > Regulation in Malakand Division has brought people >>> face to face with >>> > the ugly reality of the Talibanisation phenomenon in >>> the rural >>> > backwaters as well as in modern urban centres. >>> > >>> > The Karachi meeting was well-attended by WAF’s >>> standards. It is not >>> > easy to mobilise women for any cause in this city of >>> multiple >>> > identities. The metropolis has a diversity of >>> populations, cultures, >>> > languages and economic interests posing a challenge to >>> bring women >>> > together on a single platform. Learning from its >>> experience of the >>> > lawyers’ movement that had succeeded in uniting the >>> extreme right and >>> > centrist political parties and the professionals on a >>> single-point >>> > agenda for two years, WAF also decided to make >>> Talibanisation and >>> > women the focal issue. >>> > >>> > That strategy paid off. Women had already been >>> galvanised by the >>> > video showing the flogging of a teenaged girl in Swat >>> that activist >>> > Samar Minallah courageously brought to the world >>> media’s attention, >>> > invoking in the process the wrath of the Taliban whose >>> fatwa declared >>> > her as wajibul qatl. The oppression of women is an >>> issue that cuts >>> > across classes to touch every female raw nerve. >>> Whether it is the >>> > smartly turned-out high-society woman or the working >>> woman who slaves >>> > all day long to feed an army of children and a >>> drug-addict husband or >>> > even the heavily veiled orthodox woman, each type, >>> with few >>> > exceptions, has expressed her horror at the flogging >>> incident. >>> > >>> > Hence on this occasion WAF managed to bring a diverse >>> crowd together >>> > — the activists reaching out to the grassroots such >>> as Amar Sindhu >>> > from Sindh University Hyderabad, Parveen Rahman from >>> the Orangi Pilot >>> > Project and Sadiqa Salahuddin whose Indus Resource >>> Centre runs >>> > schools in the interior of Sindh, as well as the >>> elites sitting side >>> > by side with the three van-loads of women from Neelum >>> Colony who >>> > clean the homes of the rich and will be starting their >>> adult literacy >>> > classes from next week, courtesy Shabina’s Garage >>> School. >>> > >>> > The variety of speakers focusing on the theme of >>> women’s oppression >>> > by the Taliban found a responsive audience. But the >>> question that >>> > made many ponder was: what next? Can this interest be >>> sustained? If >>> > they had not already started probing for answers, the >>> thought- >>> > provoking speech by Arundhati Roy, the renowned Indian >>> writer and >>> > activist, did the trick. Coming from New Delhi on a >>> solidarity >>> > mission to WAF’s meeting. Roy raised four issues: >>> > >>> > • What do we mean by the Taliban and what gave birth >>> to them? >>> > >>> > • Define your own space and do not surrender it. >>> > >>> > • Don’t allow yourself to be forced into making >>> choices of the ‘with >>> > us or against us’ type. >>> > >>> > • Don’t be selective in your injustices. >>> > >>> > These should provide food for thought for those >>> struggling against >>> > oppression. Without being specific, Roy exhorted her >>> audience to look >>> > into the structures and systems that lead to a >>> situation of such >>> > extreme oppression, some of which is rooted in the >>> class conflict. >>> > She believes one has to take a ‘total view’ of the >>> matter, which she >>> > admitted she had come to Pakistan to understand. >>> > >>> > The fact is that we live in a largely grey area where >>> the lines are >>> > not sharply drawn. There is a lot of overlapping >>> between issues >>> > touching gender, class, ethnicity, culture, political >>> power and >>> > economic gains. It is this reality one has to >>> recognise and see how >>> > the contradictions can be addressed. The demand to >>> take sides >>> > unambiguously, expressed so vividly in the days >>> following 9/11 by >>> > George Bush as ‘You are with us or against us,’ >>> can create a dilemma >>> > for people when negotiating these grey areas. >>> > >>> > Roy’s advice to avoid being ‘with us or against >>> us’ has implications >>> > she didn’t elucidate. In times when action is needed >>> and a position >>> > has to be taken — even if verbally — inaction or >>> neutrality >>> > unwittingly props up the status quo. If the status quo >>> has been >>> > created by inimical forces ostensibly now fighting >>> their self-created >>> > Frankenstein, where does one go? >>> > >>> > The practical approach would be to prioritise >>> strategies that can be >>> > adapted to changing circumstances. And what should >>> these be? Here Roy >>> > has a point when she says that one cannot be selective >>> in the >>> > justices one espouses and the injustices one >>> denounces. In this >>> > context Pakistanis find themselves trapped between the >>> devil and the >>> > deep sea. Attempting to rectify a problem here and >>> another there >>> > really doesn’t help because our entire state >>> structure is colonial, >>> > as a booklet titled Making Pakistan a Tenable State >>> points out. >>> > >>> > Produced by 17 intellectuals, with Dr Mubashir Hasan >>> as the driving >>> > force, the book describes the state structure as being >>> ‘based on the >>> > concentration of political and administrative power in >>> the steel >>> > frame of the civil services under the protection of >>> the armed forces. >>> > The structure could be defined as >>> feudal-military-bureaucratic.’ >>> > >>> > The problem is systemic. In a state ruled by ‘a >>> government of the >>> > elites, by the elites, for the elites’ it is >>> inevitable that it is >>> > authoritarian and exploitative. Change can come when >>> there is >>> > mobilisation of the people for change. When WAF >>> mobilises women to >>> > fight against injustices it prepares them to also >>> fight for change. >>> > The need is to empower them and instill confidence in >>> them. >>> > >>> > Two women I have written about who are fighting for >>> change come from >>> > the poorest of the poor and theirs is not a feminist >>> agenda. They are >>> > fighting to have a roof above their heads. One is the >>> wife of Walidad >>> > from Muhammad Essa Khaskheli who came all the way to >>> Karachi in the >>> > heat of summer to save her goth from being snapped up >>> by a feudal in >>> > the neighbourhood. >>> > >>> > The other is Parveen whose one-room ‘mansion’ in a >>> katchi abadi of >>> > Clifton is now under threat of demolition. She is >>> resisting the >>> > exploitative system that cannot provide shelter to the >>> poor. >>> > Initially she hesitated — was it ‘proper’ for a >>> woman to protest she >>> > had asked me. When encouraged she decided it was. >>> These are women on >>> > the way to empowerment and that is WAF’s agenda. >>> > >>> >   2. >>> > >>> > ‘I’m here to understand what you mean by >>> Taliban’ >>> > by Salman Siddiqui >>> > Friday, 08 May, 2009 >>> > http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/ >>> > pakistan/arundhati-roy-sal-02 >>> > >>> > Is there a threat of Talibanisation engulfing the >>> entire region? >>> > >>> > I think it has already engulfed our region. I think >>> there’s a need >>> > for a very clear thinking (on this issue of >>> Talibanisation). In >>> > India, there are two kinds of terrorism: one is >>> Islamic terrorism and >>> > the other Maoist terrorism. But this term terrorism, >>> we must ask, >>> > what do they mean by it. >>> > >>> > In Pakistan, I’m here to understand what they mean >>> by this term. When >>> > we say we must fight the Taliban or must defeat them, >>> what does it >>> > mean? I’m here to understand what you mean when you >>> say Taliban. Do >>> > you mean a militant? Do you mean an ideology? Exactly >>> what is it that >>> > is being fought? That needs to be clarified. >>> > >>> > I think both needs to be fought. But if it’s an >>> ideology it has to be >>> > fought differently, while if it’s a person with a >>> gun then it has to >>> > be fought differently. We know from the history of the >>> war on terror >>> > that a military strategy is only making matters worse >>> all over the >>> > world. The war on terror has made the world a more >>> dangerous place. >>> > In India, they have been fighting insurgencies >>> military since 1947 >>> > and it has become a more dangerous place. >>> > >>> > Swat and the Taliban boy >>> > >>> > It is very important for me to understand what exactly >>> is going in >>> > Swat. How did it start? A Taliban boy asked me why >>> women can’t be >>> > like plastic bags and banned. The point is that the >>> plastic bag was >>> > made in a factory but so was the boy. He was made in a >>> factory that >>> > is producing this kind of mind(set). (The question is) >>> who owns that >>> > factory, who funds it? Unless we deal with that >>> factory, dealing with >>> > the boy doesn’t help us. >>> > >>> > Water is the main issue >>> > >>> > One danger in Pakistan is that we talk about the >>> threat of Taliban so >>> > much that other important issues lose focus. In my >>> view, the problem >>> > of water in the world will become the most important >>> problem.  I >>> > think big dams are economically unviable, >>> environmentally >>> > unsustainable and politically undemocratic. They are a >>> way of taking >>> > away a river from the poor and giving it to the rich. >>> Like in India, >>> > there’s an issue of SEZs (Special Economic Zones), >>> whereby the land >>> > of the people are given to corporations. But the >>> bigger problem is >>> > that there are making dams and giving water to the >>> industries. This >>> > way the people who live in villages by the streams and >>> rivers have no >>> > water for themselves. So building dams is one of the >>> most >>> > ecologically destructive things that you can do. >>> > >>> > Fight over Siachen glacier >>> > >>> > There are thousands of Pakistani and Indian soldiers >>> deployed on the >>> > Siachen glacier. Both of our countries are spending >>> billions of >>> > dollars on high altitude warfare and weapons. The >>> whole of the >>> > Siachen glacier is sort of an icy monument to human >>> folly. Each day >>> > it is being filled with ice axes, old boots, tents and >>> so on. >>> > Meanwhile, that battlefield is melting. Siachen >>> glacier is about half >>> > its size now. It’s not melting because the Indian >>> and Pakistani >>> > soldiers are on it. But it’s because people >>> somewhere on the other >>> > side of the world are leading a good life….in >>> countries that call >>> > themselves democracies that believe in human rights >>> and free speech. >>> > Their economies depend on selling weapons to both of >>> us. Now, when >>> > that glacier melts, there will be floods first, then >>> there will be a >>> > drought and then we’ll have even more reasons to >>> fight. We’ll buy >>> > more weapons from those democracies and in this way >>> human beings will >>> > prove themselves to be the stupidest animals on >>> earth. >>> > >>> > Money and the Indian elections >>> > >>> > Whatever system of government you have, whether it is >>> a military >>> > dictatorship or a democracy, and you have that for a >>> long time, >>> > eventually big money manages to subvert it. That has >>> begun to happen >>> > even in a democracy (like India). For example, >>> political parties need >>> > a lot of publicity, but the media is also run by >>> corporate money. If >>> > you look at the big political parties like the >>> Congress and the BJP, >>> > you see how much money is being put out just in their >>> advertising >>> > budgets. Now where does all that come from? >>> > >>> > RSS and the Indian establishment >>> > >>> > The RSS has infiltrated everything to a great extent. >>> In India, we >>> > have 120-150 million Muslims and it’s considered a >>> minority…It’s >>> > impossible to not belong to a minority of some sort in >>> India. Caste >>> > or ethnicity or religion or whatever, in some way >>> everyone belongs to >>> > a minority. The fights that many of us are waging >>> against the RSS and >>> > against the BJP are to say that we live in a society >>> which >>> > accommodates everybody. Everybody doesn’t have to >>> love everybody, but >>> > everybody has to be accommodated.  The RSS has >>> infiltrated the >>> > (Indian) army as much as various kinds of Wahabism or >>> other kinds of >>> > religious ideology have infiltrated the ISI or the >>> armed forces in >>> > Pakistan. They are human beings like everyone else and >>> they too get >>> > influenced. >>> > >>> > Indian media and sensationalizing of news coming out >>> from Pakistan >>> > >>> > I think the media in both countries play this game. >>> Whenever >>> > something happens here, they hype it up there, while >>> when something >>> > happens there, they hype the news here. We say that we >>> live in times >>> > of an information revolution and free press, but even >>> then nobody >>> > gets to know the complete picture… >>> > >>> > The Pakistani media is a little different from the >>> Indian media. They >>> > stand on a slightly different foundation. But both >>> share the problem >>> > of a lack of accountability…The trouble in India is >>> that 90 per cent >>> > of their revenue comes from the corporate >>> sector…there’s increasing >>> > privatization and corporatization of governance, >>> education, health, >>> > infrastructure and water management. So in India you >>> see an open >>> > criticism of governance, but very rarely criticism of >>> corporations. >>> > It’s a structural problem. It’s not about good >>> people or bad people. >>> > It’s just that you can’t expect a company to work >>> against itself. >>> > This is a very serious issue which needs to be sorted >>> out. >>> > >>> > Is the Indian army a sacred cow? >>> > >>> > The Indian army is quite a sacred cow especially on TV >>> and Bollywood. >>> > But at the same time if you talk to the people in the >>> Indian army, >>> > they say that they feel that the media is very >>> critical of them. I >>> > don’t share that view. I think it is a sacred cow. >>> People are willing >>> > to give them a lot of leeway. >>> > >>> > Women and their fight for justice >>> > >>> > When women fight for justice, we must fight for every >>> kind of justice… >>> > We must fight for justice for men and justice for >>> children. Because >>> > if you fight for one kind of justice and you tolerate >>> another, then >>> > it’s a pretty hollow fight. You may not be able to >>> fight every >>> > battle, but you should be able to put yourself on the >>> line and say I >>> > believe this. >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > Shuddhabrata Sengupta >>> > The Sarai Programme at CSDS >>> > Raqs Media Collective >>> > shuddha at sarai.net >>> > www.sarai.net >>> > www.raqsmediacollective.net >>> > >>> > >>> > _________________________________________ >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the >>> city. >>> > Critiques & Collaborations >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >>> with subscribe in the subject header. >>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> > List archive: >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > _________________________________________ >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the >>> city. >>> > Critiques & Collaborations >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >>> with subscribe in the subject header. >>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> > List archive: >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> http://indersalim.livejournal.com >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the >>> city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >>> with subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: >> >> >> >> > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From indersalim at gmail.com Sat May 16 18:29:01 2009 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 18:29:01 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Arundhati Roy in Karachi In-Reply-To: <13550.91554.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <13550.91554.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70905160559n18d307bchb0eada5cb8aab8ad@mail.gmail.com> Dear Kshmendra, NOW PLEASE STOP THIS. WE WILL NOT TALK ABOUT THIS ISSUE ANYMORE, IF YOU DONT THE PATIENCE TO LISTEN, AND LABELLING ME UNETHICIAL BLAH, BLAH..... JUST LET ME KNOW WHO HAS WRITTEN THE FOLLOWING, IT IS FROM YOUR MAIL I AM FORWARDING THE ENTIRE MAIL FROM WRITTEN BY YOU WITH LOVE INDER Arundhati Roy (AR) is in fashion. Rebel in fashion. A rebel with many causes to whine about with no solutions to offer. Since her grip on realities is uncertain, all that she can indulge in is vague intellectualising. That has always been in demand. Greater the obtuseness, easier it is to be highly thought of by unthinking minds. Zubeida Mustafa knowingly or unwittingly brings out the vaguness of AR when she says "Roy’s advice to avoid being ‘with us or against us’ has implications she didn’t elucidate". Zubeida goes on to say "In times when action is needed and a position has to be taken — even if verbally — inaction or neutrality unwittingly props up the status quo." How shallow minded AR is, gets highlighted in what are ostensibly quotes from her speech(es) at the WAF meet. AR: "In India, there are two kinds of terrorism: one is Islamic terrorism and the other Maoist terrorism. But this term terrorism, we must ask, what do they mean by it. " KK: Note the word "they". Who is this "they"? Why did AR fail to mention that there is also public discourse on 'Hindu terrorism' and 'Economic terrorism'. Even on 'State terrorism' to some degree. What is this "they" she is trying to create? Or, is she trying to say there is no 'terrorism' in India and that it is just a figment of the imagination of the "they"? AR: "I’m here to understand what you mean when you say Taliban." KK : AR also spoke about a Taliban Boy. How did she know the boy was "Taliban" if she is yet to understand what they mean by "Taliban" in Pakistan? She seems to have her own understanding of that term "Taliban". Why doesnt she tell us what she means by "Taliban"? AR (On Taliban): "Do you mean a militant? Do you mean an ideology? Exactly what is it that is being fought? That needs to be clarified. I think both needs to be fought. But if it’s an ideology it has to be fought differently, while if it’s a person with a gun then it has to be fought differently." KK: Is AR such an ignorant idiot that she cannot see that militancy finds it's justifications and reassurances from the ideology? What is shameful about AR is that she uses the term 'militant' for those who have indulged in the most heinous of acts as Taliban and that has gravitated many women in Pakistan (under threat to their lives) to step-out and speak-out against the Taliban. AR: "In India, they have been fighting insurgencies military since 1947 and it has become a more dangerous place." KK: Note the "they" word again. But, what would AR have India do with those that she herself calls "insurgencies"? AR vagueness without any solutions. And, some doublespeake. In India she often hints at support for separatists. Why does she not espouse for India similar attitudes that she advocates in Pakistan where she proclaims "I think both needs to be fought" (whether militant or ideology)? AR (on the 'Taliban Boy'): "He was made in a factory that is producing this kind of mind(set). (The question is) who owns that factory, who funds it? Unless we deal with that factory, dealing with the boy doesn’t help us." KK: So what should be done about the 'Taliban Boy' while AR indulges in her vaguness of 'who owns the factory, who funds it?'? AR does not want her "Taliban Boy" dealt with. Should we in the meantime invite her 'Taliban Boy' to kill some more; behead some more; rape some more? AR: "The RSS has infiltrated the (Indian) army as much as various kinds of Wahabism or other kinds of religious ideology have infiltrated the ISI or the armed forces in Pakistan." KK: Note the words "as much". AR seems to know much more about the Indian Army then the rest of India knows for her to bring about an equivalence in the 'religion infiltration' into the Armed Forces of India and Pakistan. More likely is that she knows very little about the anxieties in Pakistan about the extent to which there is widespread suspicion (in Pakistan and elsewhere) about the continued influence exerted within the ISI and the Armed Forces of Pakistan by hardline religious ideology inspite of major efforts (especially by Musharraf) to unshackle them. Kshmendra On Sat, May 16, 2009 at 6:01 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Inder > > Nothing in what you have quoted of mine even remotely suggests that there is > a charge made by me against AR that she did not speak the language of the US > in Pakistan or argued by me that the Taliban Boy should have been killed > instantly. > > I suggest you stop this habit of misrepresenting another person's words and > stop making inferences that have no foundation with similar malicious > intent. You make it impossible for you being considered as someone who is > serious about a conversation. > > Kshmendra > > --- On Sat, 5/16/09, Inder Salim wrote: > > From: Inder Salim > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Arundhati Roy in Karachi > To: "reader-list" > Date: Saturday, May 16, 2009, 4:22 PM > > Dear Kshmendra Kaul > > with your permission, i am lifting  the following from your earlier mail : > > > AR (on the 'Taliban Boy'): "He was made in a factory that is > producing this kind of mind(set). (The question is) who owns that > factory, who funds it? Unless we deal with that factory, dealing with > the boy doesn’t help us." >> >> KK: So what should be done about the 'Taliban Boy' while AR indulges in >> her vaguness of 'who owns the factory, who funds it?'? AR does not want her >> "Taliban Boy" dealt with. Should we in the meantime invite her 'Taliban Boy' >> to kill some more; behead some more; rape some more? > > > the above quoted fragment is from a mail written by you, and i see > there is KK,  and i see KK wants some action against the Taliban boy, > so do US. please correct me ,if  i am reading it differently. > > > about my use of expression ' lawyer' i appologize, but it was in a > playful mood, not to hurt the sentiment, i rememember it was perhpas, > about the no. of appricot trees on the roads in kashmir, but that was > a small point, come on dear > > now, you feel i am disgusting ,so you said the following about me : > > "frighteningly delusional or shamelessly unethical in misrepresenting > / misquoting / mis-attributing words and positions to others". > > dont u feel that this is a little more, but i have a smiling habit to > eat it with a pinch of salt > > > with love > is > > > On Sat, May 16, 2009 at 2:58 PM, Kshmendra Kaul > wrote: >> Dear Inder >> >> I do not know if the Mr. KK you refer to is me. If it is not then please >> ignore this mail. >> >> If it is me you are referring to, then please clarify where have I >> answered (as you put it) what Rahul as put as questions to you over your >> earlier statements. Rahul wrote to you: >> >> """" >> Inder Salim, >> "The charge against Arundhati Roy is that why she chose not to speak the >> language of US in Pakistan." >> >> Who made this charge? >> >> "The boy ( Taliban boy) should be killed instantly the moment he said that >> ‘woman’ and ‘plastic bags’ should be banned. That is perhaps, the >> argument." >> >> Who made this argument? """""" >> >> Inder, either you are frighteningly delusional or shamelessly unethical in >> misrepresenting / misquoting / mis-attributing words and positions to >> others. >> >> Just a few days back I reminded you of this disgusting habit of yours. You >> had the most peurile response by saying that you are not a lawyer and that >> you 'infer'. >> >> Kshmendra >> >> --- On Fri, 5/15/09, Inder Salim wrote: >> >> From: Inder Salim >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Arundhati Roy in Karachi >> To: "reader-list" >> Date: Friday, May 15, 2009, 6:11 PM >> >> Dear Rahul >> i think the question is already answered by Mr. K K >> i only reflected >> >> love >> is >> >> On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 4:01 PM, Rahul Asthana >> wrote: >>> >>> Inder Salim, >>> >>> "The charge against Arundhati Roy is that why she chose not to speak >>> the language of US in Pakistan." >>> >>> Who made this charge? >>> >>> "The boy ( Taliban boy >>>> ) should be >>>> killed instantly the moment he said that ‘woman’ and >>>> ‘plastic bags’ >>>> should be banned. That is perhaps, the argument." >>> >>> Who made this argument? >>> >>> Thanks >>> Rahul >>> >>> >>> --- On Fri, 5/15/09, Inder Salim wrote: >>> >>>> From: Inder Salim >>>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Arundhati Roy in Karachi >>>> To: "reader-list" >>>> Date: Friday, May 15, 2009, 8:59 AM >>>> Dear All, >>>> >>>> "You must be either very dumb or very rich if you fail >>>> to notice that development stinks", says Gustavo Esteva, a >>>> Mexican >>>> activist and development critic. And in a article, couple >>>> of years >>>> back, Arundhati Roy wrote, “ The world is journeying on a >>>> terrible >>>> path “. >>>> >>>> I want to know who disagrees with the above two statements. >>>> And those >>>> who see the fanatic Muslim terrorist as the most poisonous >>>> growth in >>>> the happiness producing paddy fields of the world , which >>>> we urgently >>>> need  weeding,  then I disagree. >>>> >>>> The charge against Arundhati Roy is that why she chose not >>>> to speak >>>> the language of US in Pakistan.  The boy ( Taliban boy >>>> ) should be >>>> killed instantly the moment he said that ‘woman’ and >>>> ‘plastic bags’ >>>> should be banned. That is perhaps, the argument. >>>> >>>> Now who has put this tag ‘Taliban’ on the forehead of >>>> millions of >>>> Muslims in the world, who else, but the USA. Are not >>>> talking about the >>>> masters who play this game? If not why? >>>> >>>>  Is ISI and the Pakistani Establishment the only masters of >>>> this boy? >>>> What if USA/West is the hidden master of this game, and if >>>> that is a >>>> possibility, then how the police, who is thief himself will >>>> catches >>>> the thief?  Seeing it from a perspective of treatments >>>> on canvas, this >>>> handling of Af-Pak issue by USA is as unaesthetic as Iraq >>>> war was. >>>> This is bound to generate ugliness, but unfortunately, they >>>> are >>>> probably content with their actions, as usual. >>>> >>>>   Looking seriously at the problem ,  I think >>>> 9/11 was a long term >>>> investment for USA/West to harvest dividends. The threat, >>>> which is >>>> more projected than real,  to their securities has >>>> already hardened >>>> the boarders, and the  excuse to inspect/control the >>>> weapons in our >>>> backyards has become real. They almost say, that we should >>>> know what >>>> is  happening in your homes. The trouble is that our >>>> knowledge of >>>> their homes does not reveal that hidden agenda. >>>> >>>> Meanwhile, they will make us forget that it was their >>>> willingness in >>>> the first place to manufacture these weapons of mass >>>> destruction, so, >>>> we all will believe that ‘they there’ are right >>>> and ‘we here’ are >>>> wrong. They design the guns and bombs, they finance it, >>>> they >>>> distribute it, and they decide how to fix the >>>> responsibility. >>>> >>>> We already know that taking a stand against the boy with >>>> disdain for ‘ >>>> they there’ is a demand of times, some sort of >>>> pragmatism, so we need >>>> to say yes, yes, let us kill the boy and thousand and >>>> thousand of >>>> other like him. We want development, even if it >>>> ‘stinks’. >>>> >>>> This sound called USA/West has already killed half a >>>> million in Iraq >>>> and we still believe that the enemy of humanity is this >>>> terrorist, >>>> this terrorist only.  We must be naïve to give all >>>> the benefit of >>>> doubts to them. ( here, them and us is not a black and >>>> white contrast, >>>> but we need to know how much of fiction is weaved in the >>>> us-like as >>>> them-like, or even, vice versa. ) >>>> >>>> Sad, if we think that to kill this boy is the remedy to our >>>> ills, then >>>> how to let us go ahead with killing the entire >>>> Taliabanized  society >>>> in Pakistan and Afghanistan, which runs in millions. >>>> Mr. Jamal, a >>>> Pakistani Journalist said that there are half a million >>>> hard core >>>> units ( Jihadis/individuals ) from Madarasas ( schools ) in >>>> Pakistan. >>>> First, how to mark one by one, and how to change the >>>> programmed grey >>>> matter inside the head. As Ashish Nandy rightly pointed out >>>> that >>>> Modern societies have no previous  experience to deal >>>> with a person >>>> who is willing to die, for a cause, which is not >>>> necessarily valid for >>>> rest of us. >>>> >>>> The trouble begins when for example, a Megaphone Company is >>>> delighted >>>> to sell its product to thousands of mosques in thousands of >>>> villages >>>> in the these two countries. They are happy to push the >>>> sales, but have >>>> the so called peace generating  companies ever >>>> campaigned against the >>>> sale of their product to these companies. They should have >>>> reminded >>>> them that the muezzin does not need scientific means to >>>> push religion >>>> in the minds of people, but goodwill, trust, compassion and >>>> simplicity >>>> etc. But they do the reverse, they tell them lies, and try >>>> all the >>>> tricks to sell their product, and so  why it is >>>> surprises us if we get >>>> a Tabliban from such promotions. This is just a case in the >>>> point. >>>> >>>> The trouble begins here, for example, terrorist uprising in >>>> Kashmir >>>> created all the violence against the innocent people in the >>>> valley. >>>> Both Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims suffered terribly, and now, >>>> yes, when >>>> there is a visible mistrust against them ( >>>> terrorists) in the valley, >>>> and we feel people are returning back to normal life, how >>>> are we going >>>> to define ‘peace’ and ‘development’ in real sense >>>> of the word. What is >>>> normal life? And if it means a return to the decadence and >>>> a dumb >>>> chase of American style of living, at a terrible cost of >>>> our >>>> environment and cultural moorings, then what should I say. >>>> >>>> This I am saying, even if people will forget  the core >>>> Kashmir issue >>>> which is presently unresolved. >>>> >>>> Just by killing the  remaining 3000 odd terrorist in >>>> the valley, I >>>> don’t know what we, the so called peace loving people, >>>> are going to >>>> achieve. >>>> >>>>  I never said, that the presence of terrorists in the >>>> valley is/was a >>>> future catalyst to resolve the issues which I have raised, >>>> but their >>>> absence too wont change the rules of the game which are >>>> nothing ,but >>>> what Gustavo’s ‘stink’ generating projects talk >>>> about. >>>> >>>> Will  there be a solid peace in the region. I doubt. >>>> The propaganda >>>> right now is that the  terrorist caused the delay in >>>> development. >>>> Logically, yes, but what development. >>>> >>>> May be we need to define this animal called development >>>> first before >>>> we go to define the terrorist. >>>> >>>> The trouble begins, here again , as Mr. Jamals interviewer >>>> pointed >>>> out, that the Terrorist can not lead a normal life even >>>> after the >>>> issue is resolved. So how to treat the situation? >>>> >>>> So what is the way out ? >>>> >>>> Love and regards >>>> Inder salim >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 6:07 PM, Kshmendra Kaul >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> > Arundhati Roy (AR) is in fashion. Rebel in fashion. A >>>> rebel with many causes to whine about with no solutions to >>>> offer. Since her grip on realities is uncertain, all >>>> that she can indulge in is vague intellectualising. That >>>> has always been in demand. Greater the obtuseness, easier >>>> it is to be highly thought of by unthinking minds. >>>> > >>>> > Zubeida Mustafa knowingly or unwittingly brings out >>>> the vaguness of AR when she says "Roy’s advice to avoid >>>> being ‘with us or against us’ has implications she >>>> didn’t elucidate". Zubeida goes on to say "In times when >>>> action is needed and a position has to be taken — even if >>>> verbally — inaction or neutrality unwittingly props up the >>>> status quo." >>>> > >>>> > How shallow minded AR is, gets highlighted in what >>>> are ostensibly quotes from her speech(es) at the WAF meet. >>>> > >>>> > AR: "In India, there are two kinds of terrorism: one >>>> is Islamic terrorism and the other Maoist terrorism. But >>>> this term terrorism, we must ask, what do they mean by >>>> it. " >>>> > >>>> > KK: Note the word "they". Who is this "they"? Why did >>>> AR fail to mention that there is also public discourse on >>>> 'Hindu terrorism' and 'Economic terrorism'.  Even on >>>> 'State terrorism' to some degree. What is this "they" she is >>>> trying to create? Or, is she trying to say there is no >>>> 'terrorism' in India and that it is just a figment of the >>>> imagination of the "they"? >>>> > >>>> > AR: "I’m here to understand what you mean when you >>>> say Taliban." >>>> > >>>> > KK : AR also spoke about a Taliban Boy. How did she >>>> know the boy was "Taliban" if she is yet to understand what >>>> they mean by "Taliban" in Pakistan? She seems to have her >>>> own understanding of that term "Taliban". Why doesnt she >>>> tell us what she means by "Taliban"? >>>> > >>>> > AR (On Taliban): "Do you mean a militant? Do you mean >>>> an ideology? Exactly what is it that is being fought? That >>>> needs to be clarified. >>>> > I think both needs to be fought. But if it’s an >>>> ideology it has to be fought differently, while if it’s a >>>> person with a gun then it has to be fought differently." >>>> > >>>> > KK: Is AR such an ignorant idiot that she cannot see >>>> that militancy finds it's justifications and reassurances >>>> from the ideology? What is shameful about AR is that >>>> she uses the term 'militant' for those who have indulged in >>>> the most heinous of acts as Taliban and that has gravitated >>>> many women in Pakistan (under threat to their lives) to >>>> step-out and speak-out against the Taliban. >>>> > >>>> > AR: "In India, they have been fighting insurgencies >>>> military since 1947 and it has become a more dangerous >>>> place." >>>> > >>>> > KK: Note the "they" word again. But, what would AR >>>> have India do with those that she herself calls >>>> "insurgencies"? AR vagueness without any solutions. And, >>>> some doublespeake. In India she often hints at support for >>>> separatists. Why does she not espouse for India similar >>>> attitudes that she advocates in Pakistan where she proclaims >>>> "I think both needs to be fought" (whether militant or >>>> ideology)? >>>> > >>>> > AR (on the 'Taliban Boy'): "He was made in a factory >>>> that is producing this kind of mind(set). (The question is) >>>> who owns that factory, who funds it? Unless we deal with >>>> that factory, dealing with the boy doesn’t help us." >>>> > >>>> > KK: So what should be done about the 'Taliban >>>> Boy' while AR indulges in her vaguness of 'who owns the >>>> factory, who funds it?'? AR does not want her "Taliban Boy" >>>> dealt with. Should we in the meantime invite her 'Taliban >>>> Boy' to kill some more; behead some more; rape some more? >>>> > >>>> > AR: "The RSS has infiltrated the (Indian) army as much >>>> as various kinds of Wahabism or other kinds of religious >>>> ideology have infiltrated the ISI or the armed forces in >>>> Pakistan." >>>> > >>>> > KK: Note the words "as much". AR seems to know much >>>> more about the Indian Army then the rest of India knows for >>>> her to bring about an equivalence in the 'religion >>>> infiltration' into the Armed Forces of India and Pakistan. >>>> More likely is that she knows very little about the >>>> anxieties in Pakistan about the extent to which there is >>>> widespread suspicion (in Pakistan and elsewhere) about the >>>> continued influence exerted within the ISI and the Armed >>>> Forces of Pakistan by hardline religious ideology inspite >>>> of major efforts (especially by Musharraf) to unshackle >>>> them. >>>> > >>>> > Kshmendra >>>> > >>>> > --- On Wed, 5/13/09, Shuddhabrata Sengupta >>>> wrote: >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta >>>> > Subject: [Reader-list] Arundhati Roy in Karachi >>>> > To: "reader-list at sarai.net >>>> list" >>>> > Date: Wednesday, May 13, 2009, 8:07 AM >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > Dear All, >>>> > >>>> > The Delhi based writer Arundhati Roy has recently been >>>> in Karachi, >>>> > Pakistan at the invitation of civil society >>>> organizations and womens >>>> > rights groups. Here are two reports from Dawn, a >>>> Karachi based daily, >>>> > about meetings she attended (with an organization >>>> titled 'Womens >>>> > Action Forum') and interactions she had. I hope that >>>> they will be of >>>> > interest to people on the list. >>>> > >>>> > regards, >>>> > >>>> > Shuddha >>>> > ------------------------------ >>>> > 1. >>>> > >>>> > Arundhati Roy and the WAF >>>> > By Zubeida Mustafa >>>> > Wednesday, 13 May, 2009 >>>> > http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/ >>>> > pakistan/11-arundhati-roy-and-the-waf--02 >>>> > >>>> > ‘WOMEN to reclaim public spaces: a programme of >>>> defiance and >>>> > resistance.’ That is how the Women’s Action Forum >>>> defined the meeting >>>> > it held last Friday to mobilise public opinion against >>>> extremism. >>>> > >>>> > Although WAF’s concern to protect the space women >>>> have created in the >>>> > public mainstream has been on its agenda for some >>>> time, this goal has >>>> > acquired urgency in the wake of the events in Swat. >>>> The Nizam-i-Adl >>>> > Regulation in Malakand Division has brought people >>>> face to face with >>>> > the ugly reality of the Talibanisation phenomenon in >>>> the rural >>>> > backwaters as well as in modern urban centres. >>>> > >>>> > The Karachi meeting was well-attended by WAF’s >>>> standards. It is not >>>> > easy to mobilise women for any cause in this city of >>>> multiple >>>> > identities. The metropolis has a diversity of >>>> populations, cultures, >>>> > languages and economic interests posing a challenge to >>>> bring women >>>> > together on a single platform. Learning from its >>>> experience of the >>>> > lawyers’ movement that had succeeded in uniting the >>>> extreme right and >>>> > centrist political parties and the professionals on a >>>> single-point >>>> > agenda for two years, WAF also decided to make >>>> Talibanisation and >>>> > women the focal issue. >>>> > >>>> > That strategy paid off. Women had already been >>>> galvanised by the >>>> > video showing the flogging of a teenaged girl in Swat >>>> that activist >>>> > Samar Minallah courageously brought to the world >>>> media’s attention, >>>> > invoking in the process the wrath of the Taliban whose >>>> fatwa declared >>>> > her as wajibul qatl. The oppression of women is an >>>> issue that cuts >>>> > across classes to touch every female raw nerve. >>>> Whether it is the >>>> > smartly turned-out high-society woman or the working >>>> woman who slaves >>>> > all day long to feed an army of children and a >>>> drug-addict husband or >>>> > even the heavily veiled orthodox woman, each type, >>>> with few >>>> > exceptions, has expressed her horror at the flogging >>>> incident. >>>> > >>>> > Hence on this occasion WAF managed to bring a diverse >>>> crowd together >>>> > — the activists reaching out to the grassroots such >>>> as Amar Sindhu >>>> > from Sindh University Hyderabad, Parveen Rahman from >>>> the Orangi Pilot >>>> > Project and Sadiqa Salahuddin whose Indus Resource >>>> Centre runs >>>> > schools in the interior of Sindh, as well as the >>>> elites sitting side >>>> > by side with the three van-loads of women from Neelum >>>> Colony who >>>> > clean the homes of the rich and will be starting their >>>> adult literacy >>>> > classes from next week, courtesy Shabina’s Garage >>>> School. >>>> > >>>> > The variety of speakers focusing on the theme of >>>> women’s oppression >>>> > by the Taliban found a responsive audience. But the >>>> question that >>>> > made many ponder was: what next? Can this interest be >>>> sustained? If >>>> > they had not already started probing for answers, the >>>> thought- >>>> > provoking speech by Arundhati Roy, the renowned Indian >>>> writer and >>>> > activist, did the trick. Coming from New Delhi on a >>>> solidarity >>>> > mission to WAF’s meeting. Roy raised four issues: >>>> > >>>> > • What do we mean by the Taliban and what gave birth >>>> to them? >>>> > >>>> > • Define your own space and do not surrender it. >>>> > >>>> > • Don’t allow yourself to be forced into making >>>> choices of the ‘with >>>> > us or against us’ type. >>>> > >>>> > • Don’t be selective in your injustices. >>>> > >>>> > These should provide food for thought for those >>>> struggling against >>>> > oppression. Without being specific, Roy exhorted her >>>> audience to look >>>> > into the structures and systems that lead to a >>>> situation of such >>>> > extreme oppression, some of which is rooted in the >>>> class conflict. >>>> > She believes one has to take a ‘total view’ of the >>>> matter, which she >>>> > admitted she had come to Pakistan to understand. >>>> > >>>> > The fact is that we live in a largely grey area where >>>> the lines are >>>> > not sharply drawn. There is a lot of overlapping >>>> between issues >>>> > touching gender, class, ethnicity, culture, political >>>> power and >>>> > economic gains. It is this reality one has to >>>> recognise and see how >>>> > the contradictions can be addressed. The demand to >>>> take sides >>>> > unambiguously, expressed so vividly in the days >>>> following 9/11 by >>>> > George Bush as ‘You are with us or against us,’ >>>> can create a dilemma >>>> > for people when negotiating these grey areas. >>>> > >>>> > Roy’s advice to avoid being ‘with us or against >>>> us’ has implications >>>> > she didn’t elucidate. In times when action is needed >>>> and a position >>>> > has to be taken — even if verbally — inaction or >>>> neutrality >>>> > unwittingly props up the status quo. If the status quo >>>> has been >>>> > created by inimical forces ostensibly now fighting >>>> their self-created >>>> > Frankenstein, where does one go? >>>> > >>>> > The practical approach would be to prioritise >>>> strategies that can be >>>> > adapted to changing circumstances. And what should >>>> these be? Here Roy >>>> > has a point when she says that one cannot be selective >>>> in the >>>> > justices one espouses and the injustices one >>>> denounces. In this >>>> > context Pakistanis find themselves trapped between the >>>> devil and the >>>> > deep sea. Attempting to rectify a problem here and >>>> another there >>>> > really doesn’t help because our entire state >>>> structure is colonial, >>>> > as a booklet titled Making Pakistan a Tenable State >>>> points out. >>>> > >>>> > Produced by 17 intellectuals, with Dr Mubashir Hasan >>>> as the driving >>>> > force, the book describes the state structure as being >>>> ‘based on the >>>> > concentration of political and administrative power in >>>> the steel >>>> > frame of the civil services under the protection of >>>> the armed forces. >>>> > The structure could be defined as >>>> feudal-military-bureaucratic.’ >>>> > >>>> > The problem is systemic. In a state ruled by ‘a >>>> government of the >>>> > elites, by the elites, for the elites’ it is >>>> inevitable that it is >>>> > authoritarian and exploitative. Change can come when >>>> there is >>>> > mobilisation of the people for change. When WAF >>>> mobilises women to >>>> > fight against injustices it prepares them to also >>>> fight for change. >>>> > The need is to empower them and instill confidence in >>>> them. >>>> > >>>> > Two women I have written about who are fighting for >>>> change come from >>>> > the poorest of the poor and theirs is not a feminist >>>> agenda. They are >>>> > fighting to have a roof above their heads. One is the >>>> wife of Walidad >>>> > from Muhammad Essa Khaskheli who came all the way to >>>> Karachi in the >>>> > heat of summer to save her goth from being snapped up >>>> by a feudal in >>>> > the neighbourhood. >>>> > >>>> > The other is Parveen whose one-room ‘mansion’ in a >>>> katchi abadi of >>>> > Clifton is now under threat of demolition. She is >>>> resisting the >>>> > exploitative system that cannot provide shelter to the >>>> poor. >>>> > Initially she hesitated — was it ‘proper’ for a >>>> woman to protest she >>>> > had asked me. When encouraged she decided it was. >>>> These are women on >>>> > the way to empowerment and that is WAF’s agenda. >>>> > >>>> >   2. >>>> > >>>> > ‘I’m here to understand what you mean by >>>> Taliban’ >>>> > by Salman Siddiqui >>>> > Friday, 08 May, 2009 >>>> > http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/ >>>> > pakistan/arundhati-roy-sal-02 >>>> > >>>> > Is there a threat of Talibanisation engulfing the >>>> entire region? >>>> > >>>> > I think it has already engulfed our region. I think >>>> there’s a need >>>> > for a very clear thinking (on this issue of >>>> Talibanisation). In >>>> > India, there are two kinds of terrorism: one is >>>> Islamic terrorism and >>>> > the other Maoist terrorism. But this term terrorism, >>>> we must ask, >>>> > what do they mean by it. >>>> > >>>> > In Pakistan, I’m here to understand what they mean >>>> by this term. When >>>> > we say we must fight the Taliban or must defeat them, >>>> what does it >>>> > mean? I’m here to understand what you mean when you >>>> say Taliban. Do >>>> > you mean a militant? Do you mean an ideology? Exactly >>>> what is it that >>>> > is being fought? That needs to be clarified. >>>> > >>>> > I think both needs to be fought. But if it’s an >>>> ideology it has to be >>>> > fought differently, while if it’s a person with a >>>> gun then it has to >>>> > be fought differently. We know from the history of the >>>> war on terror >>>> > that a military strategy is only making matters worse >>>> all over the >>>> > world. The war on terror has made the world a more >>>> dangerous place. >>>> > In India, they have been fighting insurgencies >>>> military since 1947 >>>> > and it has become a more dangerous place. >>>> > >>>> > Swat and the Taliban boy >>>> > >>>> > It is very important for me to understand what exactly >>>> is going in >>>> > Swat. How did it start? A Taliban boy asked me why >>>> women can’t be >>>> > like plastic bags and banned. The point is that the >>>> plastic bag was >>>> > made in a factory but so was the boy. He was made in a >>>> factory that >>>> > is producing this kind of mind(set). (The question is) >>>> who owns that >>>> > factory, who funds it? Unless we deal with that >>>> factory, dealing with >>>> > the boy doesn’t help us. >>>> > >>>> > Water is the main issue >>>> > >>>> > One danger in Pakistan is that we talk about the >>>> threat of Taliban so >>>> > much that other important issues lose focus. In my >>>> view, the problem >>>> > of water in the world will become the most important >>>> problem.  I >>>> > think big dams are economically unviable, >>>> environmentally >>>> > unsustainable and politically undemocratic. They are a >>>> way of taking >>>> > away a river from the poor and giving it to the rich. >>>> Like in India, >>>> > there’s an issue of SEZs (Special Economic Zones), >>>> whereby the land >>>> > of the people are given to corporations. But the >>>> bigger problem is >>>> > that there are making dams and giving water to the >>>> industries. This >>>> > way the people who live in villages by the streams and >>>> rivers have no >>>> > water for themselves. So building dams is one of the >>>> most >>>> > ecologically destructive things that you can do. >>>> > >>>> > Fight over Siachen glacier >>>> > >>>> > There are thousands of Pakistani and Indian soldiers >>>> deployed on the >>>> > Siachen glacier. Both of our countries are spending >>>> billions of >>>> > dollars on high altitude warfare and weapons. The >>>> whole of the >>>> > Siachen glacier is sort of an icy monument to human >>>> folly. Each day >>>> > it is being filled with ice axes, old boots, tents and >>>> so on. >>>> > Meanwhile, that battlefield is melting. Siachen >>>> glacier is about half >>>> > its size now. It’s not melting because the Indian >>>> and Pakistani >>>> > soldiers are on it. But it’s because people >>>> somewhere on the other >>>> > side of the world are leading a good life….in >>>> countries that call >>>> > themselves democracies that believe in human rights >>>> and free speech. >>>> > Their economies depend on selling weapons to both of >>>> us. Now, when >>>> > that glacier melts, there will be floods first, then >>>> there will be a >>>> > drought and then we’ll have even more reasons to >>>> fight. We’ll buy >>>> > more weapons from those democracies and in this way >>>> human beings will >>>> > prove themselves to be the stupidest animals on >>>> earth. >>>> > >>>> > Money and the Indian elections >>>> > >>>> > Whatever system of government you have, whether it is >>>> a military >>>> > dictatorship or a democracy, and you have that for a >>>> long time, >>>> > eventually big money manages to subvert it. That has >>>> begun to happen >>>> > even in a democracy (like India). For example, >>>> political parties need >>>> > a lot of publicity, but the media is also run by >>>> corporate money. If >>>> > you look at the big political parties like the >>>> Congress and the BJP, >>>> > you see how much money is being put out just in their >>>> advertising >>>> > budgets. Now where does all that come from? >>>> > >>>> > RSS and the Indian establishment >>>> > >>>> > The RSS has infiltrated everything to a great extent. >>>> In India, we >>>> > have 120-150 million Muslims and it’s considered a >>>> minority…It’s >>>> > impossible to not belong to a minority of some sort in >>>> India. Caste >>>> > or ethnicity or religion or whatever, in some way >>>> everyone belongs to >>>> > a minority. The fights that many of us are waging >>>> against the RSS and >>>> > against the BJP are to say that we live in a society >>>> which >>>> > accommodates everybody. Everybody doesn’t have to >>>> love everybody, but >>>> > everybody has to be accommodated.  The RSS has >>>> infiltrated the >>>> > (Indian) army as much as various kinds of Wahabism or >>>> other kinds of >>>> > religious ideology have infiltrated the ISI or the >>>> armed forces in >>>> > Pakistan. They are human beings like everyone else and >>>> they too get >>>> > influenced. >>>> > >>>> > Indian media and sensationalizing of news coming out >>>> from Pakistan >>>> > >>>> > I think the media in both countries play this game. >>>> Whenever >>>> > something happens here, they hype it up there, while >>>> when something >>>> > happens there, they hype the news here. We say that we >>>> live in times >>>> > of an information revolution and free press, but even >>>> then nobody >>>> > gets to know the complete picture… >>>> > >>>> > The Pakistani media is a little different from the >>>> Indian media. They >>>> > stand on a slightly different foundation. But both >>>> share the problem >>>> > of a lack of accountability…The trouble in India is >>>> that 90 per cent >>>> > of their revenue comes from the corporate >>>> sector…there’s increasing >>>> > privatization and corporatization of governance, >>>> education, health, >>>> > infrastructure and water management. So in India you >>>> see an open >>>> > criticism of governance, but very rarely criticism of >>>> corporations. >>>> > It’s a structural problem. It’s not about good >>>> people or bad people. >>>> > It’s just that you can’t expect a company to work >>>> against itself. >>>> > This is a very serious issue which needs to be sorted >>>> out. >>>> > >>>> > Is the Indian army a sacred cow? >>>> > >>>> > The Indian army is quite a sacred cow especially on TV >>>> and Bollywood. >>>> > But at the same time if you talk to the people in the >>>> Indian army, >>>> > they say that they feel that the media is very >>>> critical of them. I >>>> > don’t share that view. I think it is a sacred cow. >>>> People are willing >>>> > to give them a lot of leeway. >>>> > >>>> > Women and their fight for justice >>>> > >>>> > When women fight for justice, we must fight for every >>>> kind of justice… >>>> > We must fight for justice for men and justice for >>>> children. Because >>>> > if you fight for one kind of justice and you tolerate >>>> another, then >>>> > it’s a pretty hollow fight. You may not be able to >>>> fight every >>>> > battle, but you should be able to put yourself on the >>>> line and say I >>>> > believe this. >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > Shuddhabrata Sengupta >>>> > The Sarai Programme at CSDS >>>> > Raqs Media Collective >>>> > shuddha at sarai.net >>>> > www.sarai.net >>>> > www.raqsmediacollective.net >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > _________________________________________ >>>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the >>>> city. >>>> > Critiques & Collaborations >>>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >>>> with subscribe in the subject header. >>>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> > List archive: >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > _________________________________________ >>>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the >>>> city. >>>> > Critiques & Collaborations >>>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >>>> with subscribe in the subject header. >>>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> > List archive: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> http://indersalim.livejournal.com >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the >>>> city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >>>> with subscribe in the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe >> in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From vedavati_jogi at yahoo.com Sat May 16 18:29:33 2009 From: vedavati_jogi at yahoo.com (Vedavati Jogi) Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 18:29:33 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Election Forecast Message-ID: <888970.87197.qm@web94713.mail.in2.yahoo.com> you are making a mistake here.   bjp  scored well in states ruled by them. but as they did not try to expand their base in last 5 years.  they have got what they deserved in 2009. this election should prove to be an eye opener for them.   people have not 'rejected' them, people have rejected left parties, lalu, mayavati, paswan, jaylalita etc etc.   bjp was banking on 'others' while congress did 'ekala chalo re' , people have voted for largest party which can give them stable govt.  people are the real kingmakers and not these people mentioned above.   congress has given new young faces while bjp has  presented same faces -no new young leader except varun gandhi.   bjp has talked about old issues like ram mandir for which they have already lost their credibility.    bjp projected itself as 'congress no. 2' and not the 'party with the difference'.  people did not select no2 when no. 1 was available.   and last but not least, bjp did not try to 'unify' hindus. if they do so in coming 5 years' span, they will definitely bounce back in 2014.   vedavati   --- On Sat, 16/5/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: From: Rakesh Iyer Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Election Forecast To: "S. Jabbar" Cc: "Sarai" <> Date: Saturday, 16 May, 2009, 6:35 PM Dear all The BJP and the Left have been shown the middle finger in these elections. And for all those in the forum who keep dismissing the Congress, do dismiss dynastic politics, but realize that NREGA, RTI and Right to Forest Land for tribals are important for the 'aam aadmi', so also other issues of livelihood, not your Golden Quadrilateral, economic disinvestment and Narendra Modi-Advani duo's 'strong leadership'. Concentrate on that. Otherwise keep seeing the middle finger shown by the rest of India to you too. Regards Rakesh _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter http://beta.cricket.yahoo.com From swathi.shivanand at gmail.com Sat May 16 18:42:45 2009 From: swathi.shivanand at gmail.com (swathi shivanand) Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 18:42:45 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Election Forecast In-Reply-To: References: <065D7E49-91EB-4E4A-9D3D-5DF91713BB03@sarai.net> Message-ID: Firstly, all victory must be tempered with some sobriety. And difficult questions have to be asked. We are going to have, yet another time, a prime minister who has not contested elections. if his record were impeccable, one wonders why he chose not to stand? One could easily dismiss the idea that 'he was scared that he would lose" as understandably naive. So what is that had the prime ministerial candidate not contest elections? Should we wonder what that says about his (and by extension the congress' and the upa's) notions about democracy and respect for it? To nuance your point further, The NREGA and the RTI were passed after much prodding and much civil society activism. If the UPA is credited with bringing in these programmes and policies, some credit is also due to the Left and other Congress allies. Swathi On Sat, May 16, 2009 at 4:05 PM, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > Dear all > > The BJP and the Left have been shown the middle finger in these elections. > And for all those in the forum who keep dismissing the Congress, do dismiss > dynastic politics, but realize that NREGA, RTI and Right to Forest Land for > tribals are important for the 'aam aadmi', so also other issues of > livelihood, not your Golden Quadrilateral, economic disinvestment and > Narendra Modi-Advani duo's 'strong leadership'. > > Concentrate on that. Otherwise keep seeing the middle finger shown by the > rest of India to you too. > > Regards > > Rakesh > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From c.anupam at gmail.com Sat May 16 18:43:49 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 18:43:49 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Arundhati Roy in Karachi In-Reply-To: <13550.91554.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <13550.91554.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <341380d00905160613r7ea3d44cqb2365843df82aa9f@mail.gmail.com> Excerpts from the article, "Pakistan's fatal shores" published in The Atlantic: "Nisar Baluch was the warm-up to Nawab Khair Bakhsh Marri, the chief of the Marri tribe of Baluch, a man who had been engaged in combat with government forces off and on for 50 years, and whose son had recently been killed by Pakistani troops. Marri greeted me in his Karachi villa, with massive exterior walls, giant plants, and ornate furniture. He was old and wizened, and walked with a cane. Marri spoke a precise, hesitant, whispering English that, combined with his robe and beige topee and the setting, gave him a certain charisma. “If we keep fighting,” he told me gently, “we will ignite an intifada like the Palestinians’. It is the cause of my optimism that the young generation of Baluch will sustain a guerrilla war. Pakistan is not eternal. It is not likely to last. The British Empire, Pakistan, Burma—these have all been temporary creations. “After Bangladesh left Pakistan,” Marri continued, in his mild and lecturing tone, “the only dynamic left within this country was the imperialist power of the Punjabi army. East Bengal was the most important element in Pakistan. The Bengalis were numerous enough to take on the Punjabis, but they seceded. Now the only option left for the Baluch is to fight.” He liked and trusted no one in Pakistan who was not Baluch, he told me." Read the full article on: http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200905/kaplan-pakistan/2 Thanks anupam On 5/16/09, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > Dear Inder > > Nothing in what you have quoted of mine even remotely suggests that there > is a charge made by me against AR that she did not speak the language of the > US in Pakistan or argued by me that the Taliban Boy should have been killed > instantly. > > I suggest you stop this habit of misrepresenting another person's words and > stop making inferences that have no foundation with similar malicious > intent. You make it impossible for you being considered as someone who is > serious about a conversation. > > Kshmendra > > --- On Sat, 5/16/09, Inder Salim wrote: > > > From: Inder Salim > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Arundhati Roy in Karachi > To: "reader-list" > Date: Saturday, May 16, 2009, 4:22 PM > > > Dear Kshmendra Kaul > > with your permission, i am lifting the following from your earlier mail : > > > AR (on the 'Taliban Boy'): "He was made in a factory that is > producing this kind of mind(set). (The question is) who owns that > factory, who funds it? Unless we deal with that factory, dealing with > the boy doesn’t help us." > > > > KK: So what should be done about the 'Taliban Boy' while AR indulges in > her vaguness of 'who owns the factory, who funds it?'? AR does not want her > "Taliban Boy" dealt with. Should we in the meantime invite her 'Taliban Boy' > to kill some more; behead some more; rape some more? > > > the above quoted fragment is from a mail written by you, and i see > there is KK, and i see KK wants some action against the Taliban boy, > so do US. please correct me ,if i am reading it differently. > > > about my use of expression ' lawyer' i appologize, but it was in a > playful mood, not to hurt the sentiment, i rememember it was perhpas, > about the no. of appricot trees on the roads in kashmir, but that was > a small point, come on dear > > now, you feel i am disgusting ,so you said the following about me : > > "frighteningly delusional or shamelessly unethical in misrepresenting > / misquoting / mis-attributing words and positions to others". > > dont u feel that this is a little more, but i have a smiling habit to > eat it with a pinch of salt > > > with love > is > > > On Sat, May 16, 2009 at 2:58 PM, Kshmendra Kaul > wrote: > > Dear Inder > > > > I do not know if the Mr. KK you refer to is me. If it is not then please > > ignore this mail. > > > > If it is me you are referring to, then please clarify where have I > > answered (as you put it) what Rahul as put as questions to you over your > > earlier statements. Rahul wrote to you: > > > > """" > > Inder Salim, > > "The charge against Arundhati Roy is that why she chose not to speak the > > language of US in Pakistan." > > > > Who made this charge? > > > > "The boy ( Taliban boy) should be killed instantly the moment he said > that > > ‘woman’ and ‘plastic bags’ should be banned. That is perhaps, the > argument." > > > > Who made this argument? """""" > > > > Inder, either you are frighteningly delusional or shamelessly unethical > in > > misrepresenting / misquoting / mis-attributing words and positions to > > others. > > > > Just a few days back I reminded you of this disgusting habit of yours. > You > > had the most peurile response by saying that you are not a lawyer and > that > > you 'infer'. > > > > Kshmendra > > > > --- On Fri, 5/15/09, Inder Salim wrote: > > > > From: Inder Salim > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Arundhati Roy in Karachi > > To: "reader-list" > > Date: Friday, May 15, 2009, 6:11 PM > > > > Dear Rahul > > i think the question is already answered by Mr. K K > > i only reflected > > > > love > > is > > > > On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 4:01 PM, Rahul Asthana > > wrote: > >> > >> Inder Salim, > >> > >> "The charge against Arundhati Roy is that why she chose not to speak > >> the language of US in Pakistan." > >> > >> Who made this charge? > >> > >> "The boy ( Taliban boy > >>> ) should be > >>> killed instantly the moment he said that ‘woman’ and > >>> ‘plastic bags’ > >>> should be banned. That is perhaps, the argument." > >> > >> Who made this argument? > >> > >> Thanks > >> Rahul > >> > >> > >> --- On Fri, 5/15/09, Inder Salim wrote: > >> > >>> From: Inder Salim > >>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Arundhati Roy in Karachi > >>> To: "reader-list" > >>> Date: Friday, May 15, 2009, 8:59 AM > >>> Dear All, > >>> > >>> "You must be either very dumb or very rich if you fail > >>> to notice that development stinks", says Gustavo Esteva, a > >>> Mexican > >>> activist and development critic. And in a article, couple > >>> of years > >>> back, Arundhati Roy wrote, “ The world is journeying on a > >>> terrible > >>> path “. > >>> > >>> I want to know who disagrees with the above two statements. > >>> And those > >>> who see the fanatic Muslim terrorist as the most poisonous > >>> growth in > >>> the happiness producing paddy fields of the world , which > >>> we urgently > >>> need weeding, then I disagree. > >>> > >>> The charge against Arundhati Roy is that why she chose not > >>> to speak > >>> the language of US in Pakistan. The boy ( Taliban boy > >>> ) should be > >>> killed instantly the moment he said that ‘woman’ and > >>> ‘plastic bags’ > >>> should be banned. That is perhaps, the argument. > >>> > >>> Now who has put this tag ‘Taliban’ on the forehead of > >>> millions of > >>> Muslims in the world, who else, but the USA. Are not > >>> talking about the > >>> masters who play this game? If not why? > >>> > >>> Is ISI and the Pakistani Establishment the only masters of > >>> this boy? > >>> What if USA/West is the hidden master of this game, and if > >>> that is a > >>> possibility, then how the police, who is thief himself will > >>> catches > >>> the thief? Seeing it from a perspective of treatments > >>> on canvas, this > >>> handling of Af-Pak issue by USA is as unaesthetic as Iraq > >>> war was. > >>> This is bound to generate ugliness, but unfortunately, they > >>> are > >>> probably content with their actions, as usual. > >>> > >>> Looking seriously at the problem , I think > >>> 9/11 was a long term > >>> investment for USA/West to harvest dividends. The threat, > >>> which is > >>> more projected than real, to their securities has > >>> already hardened > >>> the boarders, and the excuse to inspect/control the > >>> weapons in our > >>> backyards has become real. They almost say, that we should > >>> know what > >>> is happening in your homes. The trouble is that our > >>> knowledge of > >>> their homes does not reveal that hidden agenda. > >>> > >>> Meanwhile, they will make us forget that it was their > >>> willingness in > >>> the first place to manufacture these weapons of mass > >>> destruction, so, > >>> we all will believe that ‘they there’ are right > >>> and ‘we here’ are > >>> wrong. They design the guns and bombs, they finance it, > >>> they > >>> distribute it, and they decide how to fix the > >>> responsibility. > >>> > >>> We already know that taking a stand against the boy with > >>> disdain for ‘ > >>> they there’ is a demand of times, some sort of > >>> pragmatism, so we need > >>> to say yes, yes, let us kill the boy and thousand and > >>> thousand of > >>> other like him. We want development, even if it > >>> ‘stinks’. > >>> > >>> This sound called USA/West has already killed half a > >>> million in Iraq > >>> and we still believe that the enemy of humanity is this > >>> terrorist, > >>> this terrorist only. We must be naïve to give all > >>> the benefit of > >>> doubts to them. ( here, them and us is not a black and > >>> white contrast, > >>> but we need to know how much of fiction is weaved in the > >>> us-like as > >>> them-like, or even, vice versa. ) > >>> > >>> Sad, if we think that to kill this boy is the remedy to our > >>> ills, then > >>> how to let us go ahead with killing the entire > >>> Taliabanized society > >>> in Pakistan and Afghanistan, which runs in millions. > >>> Mr. Jamal, a > >>> Pakistani Journalist said that there are half a million > >>> hard core > >>> units ( Jihadis/individuals ) from Madarasas ( schools ) in > >>> Pakistan. > >>> First, how to mark one by one, and how to change the > >>> programmed grey > >>> matter inside the head. As Ashish Nandy rightly pointed out > >>> that > >>> Modern societies have no previous experience to deal > >>> with a person > >>> who is willing to die, for a cause, which is not > >>> necessarily valid for > >>> rest of us. > >>> > >>> The trouble begins when for example, a Megaphone Company is > >>> delighted > >>> to sell its product to thousands of mosques in thousands of > >>> villages > >>> in the these two countries. They are happy to push the > >>> sales, but have > >>> the so called peace generating companies ever > >>> campaigned against the > >>> sale of their product to these companies. They should have > >>> reminded > >>> them that the muezzin does not need scientific means to > >>> push religion > >>> in the minds of people, but goodwill, trust, compassion and > >>> simplicity > >>> etc. But they do the reverse, they tell them lies, and try > >>> all the > >>> tricks to sell their product, and so why it is > >>> surprises us if we get > >>> a Tabliban from such promotions. This is just a case in the > >>> point. > >>> > >>> The trouble begins here, for example, terrorist uprising in > >>> Kashmir > >>> created all the violence against the innocent people in the > >>> valley. > >>> Both Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims suffered terribly, and now, > >>> yes, when > >>> there is a visible mistrust against them ( > >>> terrorists) in the valley, > >>> and we feel people are returning back to normal life, how > >>> are we going > >>> to define ‘peace’ and ‘development’ in real sense > >>> of the word. What is > >>> normal life? And if it means a return to the decadence and > >>> a dumb > >>> chase of American style of living, at a terrible cost of > >>> our > >>> environment and cultural moorings, then what should I say. > >>> > >>> This I am saying, even if people will forget the core > >>> Kashmir issue > >>> which is presently unresolved. > >>> > >>> Just by killing the remaining 3000 odd terrorist in > >>> the valley, I > >>> don’t know what we, the so called peace loving people, > >>> are going to > >>> achieve. > >>> > >>> I never said, that the presence of terrorists in the > >>> valley is/was a > >>> future catalyst to resolve the issues which I have raised, > >>> but their > >>> absence too wont change the rules of the game which are > >>> nothing ,but > >>> what Gustavo’s ‘stink’ generating projects talk > >>> about. > >>> > >>> Will there be a solid peace in the region. I doubt. > >>> The propaganda > >>> right now is that the terrorist caused the delay in > >>> development. > >>> Logically, yes, but what development. > >>> > >>> May be we need to define this animal called development > >>> first before > >>> we go to define the terrorist. > >>> > >>> The trouble begins, here again , as Mr. Jamals interviewer > >>> pointed > >>> out, that the Terrorist can not lead a normal life even > >>> after the > >>> issue is resolved. So how to treat the situation? > >>> > >>> So what is the way out ? > >>> > >>> Love and regards > >>> Inder salim > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 6:07 PM, Kshmendra Kaul < > kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com> > >>> wrote: > >>> > Arundhati Roy (AR) is in fashion. Rebel in fashion. A > >>> rebel with many causes to whine about with no solutions to > >>> offer. Since her grip on realities is uncertain, all > >>> that she can indulge in is vague intellectualising. That > >>> has always been in demand. Greater the obtuseness, easier > >>> it is to be highly thought of by unthinking minds. > >>> > > >>> > Zubeida Mustafa knowingly or unwittingly brings out > >>> the vaguness of AR when she says "Roy’s advice to avoid > >>> being ‘with us or against us’ has implications she > >>> didn’t elucidate". Zubeida goes on to say "In times when > >>> action is needed and a position has to be taken — even if > >>> verbally — inaction or neutrality unwittingly props up the > >>> status quo." > >>> > > >>> > How shallow minded AR is, gets highlighted in what > >>> are ostensibly quotes from her speech(es) at the WAF meet. > >>> > > >>> > AR: "In India, there are two kinds of terrorism: one > >>> is Islamic terrorism and the other Maoist terrorism. But > >>> this term terrorism, we must ask, what do they mean by > >>> it. " > >>> > > >>> > KK: Note the word "they". Who is this "they"? Why did > >>> AR fail to mention that there is also public discourse on > >>> 'Hindu terrorism' and 'Economic terrorism'. Even on > >>> 'State terrorism' to some degree. What is this "they" she is > >>> trying to create? Or, is she trying to say there is no > >>> 'terrorism' in India and that it is just a figment of the > >>> imagination of the "they"? > >>> > > >>> > AR: "I’m here to understand what you mean when you > >>> say Taliban." > >>> > > >>> > KK : AR also spoke about a Taliban Boy. How did she > >>> know the boy was "Taliban" if she is yet to understand what > >>> they mean by "Taliban" in Pakistan? She seems to have her > >>> own understanding of that term "Taliban". Why doesnt she > >>> tell us what she means by "Taliban"? > >>> > > >>> > AR (On Taliban): "Do you mean a militant? Do you mean > >>> an ideology? Exactly what is it that is being fought? That > >>> needs to be clarified. > >>> > I think both needs to be fought. But if it’s an > >>> ideology it has to be fought differently, while if it’s a > >>> person with a gun then it has to be fought differently." > >>> > > >>> > KK: Is AR such an ignorant idiot that she cannot see > >>> that militancy finds it's justifications and reassurances > >>> from the ideology? What is shameful about AR is that > >>> she uses the term 'militant' for those who have indulged in > >>> the most heinous of acts as Taliban and that has gravitated > >>> many women in Pakistan (under threat to their lives) to > >>> step-out and speak-out against the Taliban. > >>> > > >>> > AR: "In India, they have been fighting insurgencies > >>> military since 1947 and it has become a more dangerous > >>> place." > >>> > > >>> > KK: Note the "they" word again. But, what would AR > >>> have India do with those that she herself calls > >>> "insurgencies"? AR vagueness without any solutions. And, > >>> some doublespeake. In India she often hints at support for > >>> separatists. Why does she not espouse for India similar > >>> attitudes that she advocates in Pakistan where she proclaims > >>> "I think both needs to be fought" (whether militant or > >>> ideology)? > >>> > > >>> > AR (on the 'Taliban Boy'): "He was made in a factory > >>> that is producing this kind of mind(set). (The question is) > >>> who owns that factory, who funds it? Unless we deal with > >>> that factory, dealing with the boy doesn’t help us." > >>> > > >>> > KK: So what should be done about the 'Taliban > >>> Boy' while AR indulges in her vaguness of 'who owns the > >>> factory, who funds it?'? AR does not want her "Taliban Boy" > >>> dealt with. Should we in the meantime invite her 'Taliban > >>> Boy' to kill some more; behead some more; rape some more? > >>> > > >>> > AR: "The RSS has infiltrated the (Indian) army as much > >>> as various kinds of Wahabism or other kinds of religious > >>> ideology have infiltrated the ISI or the armed forces in > >>> Pakistan." > >>> > > >>> > KK: Note the words "as much". AR seems to know much > >>> more about the Indian Army then the rest of India knows for > >>> her to bring about an equivalence in the 'religion > >>> infiltration' into the Armed Forces of India and Pakistan. > >>> More likely is that she knows very little about the > >>> anxieties in Pakistan about the extent to which there is > >>> widespread suspicion (in Pakistan and elsewhere) about the > >>> continued influence exerted within the ISI and the Armed > >>> Forces of Pakistan by hardline religious ideology inspite > >>> of major efforts (especially by Musharraf) to unshackle > >>> them. > >>> > > >>> > Kshmendra > >>> > > >>> > --- On Wed, 5/13/09, Shuddhabrata Sengupta > >>> wrote: > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > >>> > Subject: [Reader-list] Arundhati Roy in Karachi > >>> > To: "reader-list at sarai.net > >>> list" > >>> > Date: Wednesday, May 13, 2009, 8:07 AM > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > Dear All, > >>> > > >>> > The Delhi based writer Arundhati Roy has recently been > >>> in Karachi, > >>> > Pakistan at the invitation of civil society > >>> organizations and womens > >>> > rights groups. Here are two reports from Dawn, a > >>> Karachi based daily, > >>> > about meetings she attended (with an organization > >>> titled 'Womens > >>> > Action Forum') and interactions she had. I hope that > >>> they will be of > >>> > interest to people on the list. > >>> > > >>> > regards, > >>> > > >>> > Shuddha > >>> > ------------------------------ > >>> > 1. > >>> > > >>> > Arundhati Roy and the WAF > >>> > By Zubeida Mustafa > >>> > Wednesday, 13 May, 2009 > >>> > http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/ > >>> > pakistan/11-arundhati-roy-and-the-waf--02 > >>> > > >>> > ‘WOMEN to reclaim public spaces: a programme of > >>> defiance and > >>> > resistance.’ That is how the Women’s Action Forum > >>> defined the meeting > >>> > it held last Friday to mobilise public opinion against > >>> extremism. > >>> > > >>> > Although WAF’s concern to protect the space women > >>> have created in the > >>> > public mainstream has been on its agenda for some > >>> time, this goal has > >>> > acquired urgency in the wake of the events in Swat. > >>> The Nizam-i-Adl > >>> > Regulation in Malakand Division has brought people > >>> face to face with > >>> > the ugly reality of the Talibanisation phenomenon in > >>> the rural > >>> > backwaters as well as in modern urban centres. > >>> > > >>> > The Karachi meeting was well-attended by WAF’s > >>> standards. It is not > >>> > easy to mobilise women for any cause in this city of > >>> multiple > >>> > identities. The metropolis has a diversity of > >>> populations, cultures, > >>> > languages and economic interests posing a challenge to > >>> bring women > >>> > together on a single platform. Learning from its > >>> experience of the > >>> > lawyers’ movement that had succeeded in uniting the > >>> extreme right and > >>> > centrist political parties and the professionals on a > >>> single-point > >>> > agenda for two years, WAF also decided to make > >>> Talibanisation and > >>> > women the focal issue. > >>> > > >>> > That strategy paid off. Women had already been > >>> galvanised by the > >>> > video showing the flogging of a teenaged girl in Swat > >>> that activist > >>> > Samar Minallah courageously brought to the world > >>> media’s attention, > >>> > invoking in the process the wrath of the Taliban whose > >>> fatwa declared > >>> > her as wajibul qatl. The oppression of women is an > >>> issue that cuts > >>> > across classes to touch every female raw nerve. > >>> Whether it is the > >>> > smartly turned-out high-society woman or the working > >>> woman who slaves > >>> > all day long to feed an army of children and a > >>> drug-addict husband or > >>> > even the heavily veiled orthodox woman, each type, > >>> with few > >>> > exceptions, has expressed her horror at the flogging > >>> incident. > >>> > > >>> > Hence on this occasion WAF managed to bring a diverse > >>> crowd together > >>> > — the activists reaching out to the grassroots such > >>> as Amar Sindhu > >>> > from Sindh University Hyderabad, Parveen Rahman from > >>> the Orangi Pilot > >>> > Project and Sadiqa Salahuddin whose Indus Resource > >>> Centre runs > >>> > schools in the interior of Sindh, as well as the > >>> elites sitting side > >>> > by side with the three van-loads of women from Neelum > >>> Colony who > >>> > clean the homes of the rich and will be starting their > >>> adult literacy > >>> > classes from next week, courtesy Shabina’s Garage > >>> School. > >>> > > >>> > The variety of speakers focusing on the theme of > >>> women’s oppression > >>> > by the Taliban found a responsive audience. But the > >>> question that > >>> > made many ponder was: what next? Can this interest be > >>> sustained? If > >>> > they had not already started probing for answers, the > >>> thought- > >>> > provoking speech by Arundhati Roy, the renowned Indian > >>> writer and > >>> > activist, did the trick. Coming from New Delhi on a > >>> solidarity > >>> > mission to WAF’s meeting. Roy raised four issues: > >>> > > >>> > • What do we mean by the Taliban and what gave birth > >>> to them? > >>> > > >>> > • Define your own space and do not surrender it. > >>> > > >>> > • Don’t allow yourself to be forced into making > >>> choices of the ‘with > >>> > us or against us’ type. > >>> > > >>> > • Don’t be selective in your injustices. > >>> > > >>> > These should provide food for thought for those > >>> struggling against > >>> > oppression. Without being specific, Roy exhorted her > >>> audience to look > >>> > into the structures and systems that lead to a > >>> situation of such > >>> > extreme oppression, some of which is rooted in the > >>> class conflict. > >>> > She believes one has to take a ‘total view’ of the > >>> matter, which she > >>> > admitted she had come to Pakistan to understand. > >>> > > >>> > The fact is that we live in a largely grey area where > >>> the lines are > >>> > not sharply drawn. There is a lot of overlapping > >>> between issues > >>> > touching gender, class, ethnicity, culture, political > >>> power and > >>> > economic gains. It is this reality one has to > >>> recognise and see how > >>> > the contradictions can be addressed. The demand to > >>> take sides > >>> > unambiguously, expressed so vividly in the days > >>> following 9/11 by > >>> > George Bush as ‘You are with us or against us,’ > >>> can create a dilemma > >>> > for people when negotiating these grey areas. > >>> > > >>> > Roy’s advice to avoid being ‘with us or against > >>> us’ has implications > >>> > she didn’t elucidate. In times when action is needed > >>> and a position > >>> > has to be taken — even if verbally — inaction or > >>> neutrality > >>> > unwittingly props up the status quo. If the status quo > >>> has been > >>> > created by inimical forces ostensibly now fighting > >>> their self-created > >>> > Frankenstein, where does one go? > >>> > > >>> > The practical approach would be to prioritise > >>> strategies that can be > >>> > adapted to changing circumstances. And what should > >>> these be? Here Roy > >>> > has a point when she says that one cannot be selective > >>> in the > >>> > justices one espouses and the injustices one > >>> denounces. In this > >>> > context Pakistanis find themselves trapped between the > >>> devil and the > >>> > deep sea. Attempting to rectify a problem here and > >>> another there > >>> > really doesn’t help because our entire state > >>> structure is colonial, > >>> > as a booklet titled Making Pakistan a Tenable State > >>> points out. > >>> > > >>> > Produced by 17 intellectuals, with Dr Mubashir Hasan > >>> as the driving > >>> > force, the book describes the state structure as being > >>> ‘based on the > >>> > concentration of political and administrative power in > >>> the steel > >>> > frame of the civil services under the protection of > >>> the armed forces. > >>> > The structure could be defined as > >>> feudal-military-bureaucratic.’ > >>> > > >>> > The problem is systemic. In a state ruled by ‘a > >>> government of the > >>> > elites, by the elites, for the elites’ it is > >>> inevitable that it is > >>> > authoritarian and exploitative. Change can come when > >>> there is > >>> > mobilisation of the people for change. When WAF > >>> mobilises women to > >>> > fight against injustices it prepares them to also > >>> fight for change. > >>> > The need is to empower them and instill confidence in > >>> them. > >>> > > >>> > Two women I have written about who are fighting for > >>> change come from > >>> > the poorest of the poor and theirs is not a feminist > >>> agenda. They are > >>> > fighting to have a roof above their heads. One is the > >>> wife of Walidad > >>> > from Muhammad Essa Khaskheli who came all the way to > >>> Karachi in the > >>> > heat of summer to save her goth from being snapped up > >>> by a feudal in > >>> > the neighbourhood. > >>> > > >>> > The other is Parveen whose one-room ‘mansion’ in a > >>> katchi abadi of > >>> > Clifton is now under threat of demolition. She is > >>> resisting the > >>> > exploitative system that cannot provide shelter to the > >>> poor. > >>> > Initially she hesitated — was it ‘proper’ for a > >>> woman to protest she > >>> > had asked me. When encouraged she decided it was. > >>> These are women on > >>> > the way to empowerment and that is WAF’s agenda. > >>> > > >>> > 2. > >>> > > >>> > ‘I’m here to understand what you mean by > >>> Taliban’ > >>> > by Salman Siddiqui > >>> > Friday, 08 May, 2009 > >>> > http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/ > >>> > pakistan/arundhati-roy-sal-02 > >>> > > >>> > Is there a threat of Talibanisation engulfing the > >>> entire region? > >>> > > >>> > I think it has already engulfed our region. I think > >>> there’s a need > >>> > for a very clear thinking (on this issue of > >>> Talibanisation). In > >>> > India, there are two kinds of terrorism: one is > >>> Islamic terrorism and > >>> > the other Maoist terrorism. But this term terrorism, > >>> we must ask, > >>> > what do they mean by it. > >>> > > >>> > In Pakistan, I’m here to understand what they mean > >>> by this term. When > >>> > we say we must fight the Taliban or must defeat them, > >>> what does it > >>> > mean? I’m here to understand what you mean when you > >>> say Taliban. Do > >>> > you mean a militant? Do you mean an ideology? Exactly > >>> what is it that > >>> > is being fought? That needs to be clarified. > >>> > > >>> > I think both needs to be fought. But if it’s an > >>> ideology it has to be > >>> > fought differently, while if it’s a person with a > >>> gun then it has to > >>> > be fought differently. We know from the history of the > >>> war on terror > >>> > that a military strategy is only making matters worse > >>> all over the > >>> > world. The war on terror has made the world a more > >>> dangerous place. > >>> > In India, they have been fighting insurgencies > >>> military since 1947 > >>> > and it has become a more dangerous place. > >>> > > >>> > Swat and the Taliban boy > >>> > > >>> > It is very important for me to understand what exactly > >>> is going in > >>> > Swat. How did it start? A Taliban boy asked me why > >>> women can’t be > >>> > like plastic bags and banned. The point is that the > >>> plastic bag was > >>> > made in a factory but so was the boy. He was made in a > >>> factory that > >>> > is producing this kind of mind(set). (The question is) > >>> who owns that > >>> > factory, who funds it? Unless we deal with that > >>> factory, dealing with > >>> > the boy doesn’t help us. > >>> > > >>> > Water is the main issue > >>> > > >>> > One danger in Pakistan is that we talk about the > >>> threat of Taliban so > >>> > much that other important issues lose focus. In my > >>> view, the problem > >>> > of water in the world will become the most important > >>> problem. I > >>> > think big dams are economically unviable, > >>> environmentally > >>> > unsustainable and politically undemocratic. They are a > >>> way of taking > >>> > away a river from the poor and giving it to the rich. > >>> Like in India, > >>> > there’s an issue of SEZs (Special Economic Zones), > >>> whereby the land > >>> > of the people are given to corporations. But the > >>> bigger problem is > >>> > that there are making dams and giving water to the > >>> industries. This > >>> > way the people who live in villages by the streams and > >>> rivers have no > >>> > water for themselves. So building dams is one of the > >>> most > >>> > ecologically destructive things that you can do. > >>> > > >>> > Fight over Siachen glacier > >>> > > >>> > There are thousands of Pakistani and Indian soldiers > >>> deployed on the > >>> > Siachen glacier. Both of our countries are spending > >>> billions of > >>> > dollars on high altitude warfare and weapons. The > >>> whole of the > >>> > Siachen glacier is sort of an icy monument to human > >>> folly. Each day > >>> > it is being filled with ice axes, old boots, tents and > >>> so on. > >>> > Meanwhile, that battlefield is melting. Siachen > >>> glacier is about half > >>> > its size now. It’s not melting because the Indian > >>> and Pakistani > >>> > soldiers are on it. But it’s because people > >>> somewhere on the other > >>> > side of the world are leading a good life….in > >>> countries that call > >>> > themselves democracies that believe in human rights > >>> and free speech. > >>> > Their economies depend on selling weapons to both of > >>> us. Now, when > >>> > that glacier melts, there will be floods first, then > >>> there will be a > >>> > drought and then we’ll have even more reasons to > >>> fight. We’ll buy > >>> > more weapons from those democracies and in this way > >>> human beings will > >>> > prove themselves to be the stupidest animals on > >>> earth. > >>> > > >>> > Money and the Indian elections > >>> > > >>> > Whatever system of government you have, whether it is > >>> a military > >>> > dictatorship or a democracy, and you have that for a > >>> long time, > >>> > eventually big money manages to subvert it. That has > >>> begun to happen > >>> > even in a democracy (like India). For example, > >>> political parties need > >>> > a lot of publicity, but the media is also run by > >>> corporate money. If > >>> > you look at the big political parties like the > >>> Congress and the BJP, > >>> > you see how much money is being put out just in their > >>> advertising > >>> > budgets. Now where does all that come from? > >>> > > >>> > RSS and the Indian establishment > >>> > > >>> > The RSS has infiltrated everything to a great extent. > >>> In India, we > >>> > have 120-150 million Muslims and it’s considered a > >>> minority…It’s > >>> > impossible to not belong to a minority of some sort in > >>> India. Caste > >>> > or ethnicity or religion or whatever, in some way > >>> everyone belongs to > >>> > a minority. The fights that many of us are waging > >>> against the RSS and > >>> > against the BJP are to say that we live in a society > >>> which > >>> > accommodates everybody. Everybody doesn’t have to > >>> love everybody, but > >>> > everybody has to be accommodated. The RSS has > >>> infiltrated the > >>> > (Indian) army as much as various kinds of Wahabism or > >>> other kinds of > >>> > religious ideology have infiltrated the ISI or the > >>> armed forces in > >>> > Pakistan. They are human beings like everyone else and > >>> they too get > >>> > influenced. > >>> > > >>> > Indian media and sensationalizing of news coming out > >>> from Pakistan > >>> > > >>> > I think the media in both countries play this game. > >>> Whenever > >>> > something happens here, they hype it up there, while > >>> when something > >>> > happens there, they hype the news here. We say that we > >>> live in times > >>> > of an information revolution and free press, but even > >>> then nobody > >>> > gets to know the complete picture… > >>> > > >>> > The Pakistani media is a little different from the > >>> Indian media. They > >>> > stand on a slightly different foundation. But both > >>> share the problem > >>> > of a lack of accountability…The trouble in India is > >>> that 90 per cent > >>> > of their revenue comes from the corporate > >>> sector…there’s increasing > >>> > privatization and corporatization of governance, > >>> education, health, > >>> > infrastructure and water management. So in India you > >>> see an open > >>> > criticism of governance, but very rarely criticism of > >>> corporations. > >>> > It’s a structural problem. It’s not about good > >>> people or bad people. > >>> > It’s just that you can’t expect a company to work > >>> against itself. > >>> > This is a very serious issue which needs to be sorted > >>> out. > >>> > > >>> > Is the Indian army a sacred cow? > >>> > > >>> > The Indian army is quite a sacred cow especially on TV > >>> and Bollywood. > >>> > But at the same time if you talk to the people in the > >>> Indian army, > >>> > they say that they feel that the media is very > >>> critical of them. I > >>> > don’t share that view. I think it is a sacred cow. > >>> People are willing > >>> > to give them a lot of leeway. > >>> > > >>> > Women and their fight for justice > >>> > > >>> > When women fight for justice, we must fight for every > >>> kind of justice… > >>> > We must fight for justice for men and justice for > >>> children. Because > >>> > if you fight for one kind of justice and you tolerate > >>> another, then > >>> > it’s a pretty hollow fight. You may not be able to > >>> fight every > >>> > battle, but you should be able to put yourself on the > >>> line and say I > >>> > believe this. > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > >>> > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > >>> > Raqs Media Collective > >>> > shuddha at sarai.net > >>> > www.sarai.net > >>> > www.raqsmediacollective.net > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > _________________________________________ > >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > >>> city. > >>> > Critiques & Collaborations > >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > >>> with subscribe in the subject header. > >>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>> > List archive: > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > _________________________________________ > >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > >>> city. > >>> > Critiques & Collaborations > >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > >>> with subscribe in the subject header. > >>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>> > List archive: > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> > >>> http://indersalim.livejournal.com > >>> _________________________________________ > >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > >>> city. > >>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > >>> with subscribe in the subject header. > >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>> List archive: > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe > > in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sat May 16 19:02:51 2009 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 19:02:51 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Sajjad Lone - 'left alone' Message-ID: <6353c690905160632h346c14c2vbc918d99baca305d@mail.gmail.com> I had appreciated the fact that after years of myopic vision, some separatist elements of the valley had woken up and taken the plunge in these elections. One among them was Sajjad Lone, who was defeated today in an area which used to be strong hold of his family. Sajjad had defended his stand by saying that 'it was a change in strategy'. It seems the people haven't shown faith in him. They have yet again bravely sidelined the separatist elements who are responsible for the present condition of the valley. The common people of Kashmir want peace, and no more politics being played with them by separatist self-styled goons and their pay-masters across the border. How can mere puppets stand tall as leaders ? Wishful thinking. We saw Sajjad's fassist nature when he tried his best to instigate communal passions in Muslim majority Kashmir during the unfortunate Amarnath land controversy. His senior counterpart (Geelani) is upto similar mischief even this time around. regards -- Aditya Raj Kaul Camapign Blog - www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/ Blog: http://activistsdiary.blogspot.com/ From aliens at dataone.in Sat May 16 19:26:41 2009 From: aliens at dataone.in (bipin) Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 19:26:41 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Election Forecast References: <065D7E49-91EB-4E4A-9D3D-5DF91713BB03@sarai.net> Message-ID: <006101c9d62e$24f9a530$0201a8c0@limo> Dear All. People verdict is final and one should accept gracefully. The point raised that PM is not elected is right. But, he personally is good man and that appeals to the people. Also sign of maturity by public to elect main national party and that way avoiding black mailing from pseudo-secularists like left, lalu, paswan, mayavati, mulayam and so many. With majority lots of money will be saved, which was going to hand of this much more corrupt people. NREGA was not congress baby really it was imposed by left, but even left lost heavily. RTI was ongoing process and initiated earlier by NDA. Please refer parliament proceedings you will come to know. Still I believe that NREGA will prove failure in the near future. No one in politics has long vision and they want to gain short coverings only and many people will not understand immediately. Time will prove it. Wait n watch. For long development, root infrastructural development is the only better solution. thanks Bipin ----- Original Message ----- From: "swathi shivanand" To: "Rakesh Iyer" Cc: "Sarai" Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2009 6:42 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Election Forecast > Firstly, all victory must be tempered with some sobriety. And difficult > questions have to be asked. > > We are going to have, yet another time, a prime minister who has not > contested elections. if his record were impeccable, one wonders why he > chose > not to stand? One could easily dismiss the idea that 'he was scared that > he > would lose" as understandably naive. So what is that had the prime > ministerial candidate not contest elections? Should we wonder what that > says > about his (and by extension the congress' and the upa's) notions about > democracy and respect for it? > > To nuance your point further, The NREGA and the RTI were passed after much > prodding and much civil society activism. If the UPA is credited with > bringing in these programmes and policies, some credit is also due to the > Left and other Congress allies. > > Swathi > > On Sat, May 16, 2009 at 4:05 PM, Rakesh Iyer > wrote: > >> Dear all >> >> The BJP and the Left have been shown the middle finger in these >> elections. >> And for all those in the forum who keep dismissing the Congress, do >> dismiss >> dynastic politics, but realize that NREGA, RTI and Right to Forest Land >> for >> tribals are important for the 'aam aadmi', so also other issues of >> livelihood, not your Golden Quadrilateral, economic disinvestment and >> Narendra Modi-Advani duo's 'strong leadership'. >> >> Concentrate on that. Otherwise keep seeing the middle finger shown by the >> rest of India to you too. >> >> Regards >> >> Rakesh >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From c.anupam at gmail.com Sat May 16 19:41:49 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 19:41:49 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Election Forecast In-Reply-To: <006101c9d62e$24f9a530$0201a8c0@limo> References: <065D7E49-91EB-4E4A-9D3D-5DF91713BB03@sarai.net> <006101c9d62e$24f9a530$0201a8c0@limo> Message-ID: <341380d00905160711l1abcbc91r61ccf095f32d78a@mail.gmail.com> im shocked ... suddenly our right wing friends have found a new ally in congress: Vedavati (while maintaining: "and last but not least, bjp did not try to 'unify' hindus. if they do so in coming 5 years' span, they will definitely bounce back in 2014") has said: "congress has given new young faces while bjp has presented same faces -no new young leader except varun gandhi. (i think there are better examples here for you provided you knew Ritesh Vasava contesting from Surat) bjp has talked about old issues like ram mandir for which they have already lost their credibility." and now Bipin: "Also sign of maturity by public to elect main national party and that way avoiding black mailing from pseudo-secularists like left, lalu, paswan, mayavati, mulayam and so many." Can you guys be little less shallow? Or you still as someone recently pointed, are deciding on who is secular and pseudo-secular (at times, using the phrase "sickular") for your petty gains on this reader's list. But on second thoughts, your admissions have a tinge of honesty in it, which is why i am citing it on this mail. hope we dont have an election for next five years. regards and best wishes anupam On 5/16/09, bipin wrote: > > Dear All. > > People verdict is final and one should accept gracefully. The point raised > that PM is not elected is right. But, he personally is good man and that > appeals to the people. > > Also sign of maturity by public to elect main national party and that way > avoiding black mailing from pseudo-secularists like left, lalu, paswan, > mayavati, mulayam and so many. With majority lots of money will be saved, > which was going to hand of this much more corrupt people. > > NREGA was not congress baby really it was imposed by left, but even left > lost heavily. RTI was ongoing process and initiated earlier by NDA. Please > refer parliament proceedings you will come to know. > > Still I believe that NREGA will prove failure in the near future. No one in > politics has long vision and they want to gain short coverings only and > many > people will not understand immediately. Time will prove it. Wait n watch. > For long development, root infrastructural development is the only better > solution. > > thanks > Bipin > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "swathi shivanand" > To: "Rakesh Iyer" > Cc: "Sarai" > Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2009 6:42 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Election Forecast > > > > Firstly, all victory must be tempered with some sobriety. And difficult > > questions have to be asked. > > > > We are going to have, yet another time, a prime minister who has not > > contested elections. if his record were impeccable, one wonders why he > > chose > > not to stand? One could easily dismiss the idea that 'he was scared that > > he > > would lose" as understandably naive. So what is that had the prime > > ministerial candidate not contest elections? Should we wonder what that > > says > > about his (and by extension the congress' and the upa's) notions about > > democracy and respect for it? > > > > To nuance your point further, The NREGA and the RTI were passed after > much > > prodding and much civil society activism. If the UPA is credited with > > bringing in these programmes and policies, some credit is also due to the > > Left and other Congress allies. > > > > Swathi > > > > On Sat, May 16, 2009 at 4:05 PM, Rakesh Iyer > > wrote: > > > >> Dear all > >> > >> The BJP and the Left have been shown the middle finger in these > >> elections. > >> And for all those in the forum who keep dismissing the Congress, do > >> dismiss > >> dynastic politics, but realize that NREGA, RTI and Right to Forest Land > >> for > >> tribals are important for the 'aam aadmi', so also other issues of > >> livelihood, not your Golden Quadrilateral, economic disinvestment and > >> Narendra Modi-Advani duo's 'strong leadership'. > >> > >> Concentrate on that. Otherwise keep seeing the middle finger shown by > the > >> rest of India to you too. > >> > >> Regards > >> > >> Rakesh > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From vedavati_jogi at yahoo.com Sat May 16 20:59:07 2009 From: vedavati_jogi at yahoo.com (Vedavati Jogi) Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 20:59:07 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Election Forecast Message-ID: <514676.38420.qm@web94715.mail.in2.yahoo.com> i never vote for congress or bjp i am neither a right wing nor a left wing person   i vote for bharat i vote for hindutva i speak whatever (i feel)  is good for my nation   as i have already said, i am a narrow minded nationalist i don't understand 'vasudhaiva kutumbakam' (because i know other countries will not even allow me to enter their boundaries if i don't have their visas.)    i can't compete with broad minded seculars like you in this aspect.   by the way i don't have any gains on this list as mentioned by you.    vedavati - On Sat, 16/5/09, anupam chakravartty wrote: From: anupam chakravartty Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Election Forecast To: "sarai list" <> Date: Saturday, 16 May, 2009, 10:11 PM im shocked ... suddenly our right wing friends have found a new ally in congress: Vedavati (while maintaining: "and last but not least, bjp did not try to 'unify' hindus. if they do so in coming 5 years' span, they will definitely bounce back in 2014") has said: "congress has given new young faces while bjp has presented same faces -no new young leader except varun gandhi. (i think there are better examples here for you provided you knew Ritesh Vasava contesting from Surat) bjp has talked about old issues like ram mandir for which they have already lost their credibility." and now Bipin: "Also sign of maturity by public to elect main national party and that way avoiding black mailing from pseudo-secularists like left, lalu, paswan, mayavati, mulayam and so many." Can you guys be little less shallow? Or you still as someone recently pointed, are deciding on who is secular and pseudo-secular (at times, using the phrase "sickular") for your petty gains on this reader's list. But on second thoughts, your admissions have a tinge of honesty in it, which is why i am citing it on this mail. hope we dont have an election for next five years. regards and best wishes anupam On 5/16/09, bipin wrote: > > Dear All. > > People verdict is final and one should accept gracefully. The point raised > that PM is not elected is right. But, he personally is good man and that > appeals to the people. > > Also sign of maturity by public to elect main national party and that way > avoiding black mailing from pseudo-secularists like left, lalu, paswan, > mayavati, mulayam and so many. With majority lots of money will be saved, > which was going to hand of this much more corrupt people. > > NREGA was not congress baby really it was imposed by left, but even left > lost heavily. RTI was ongoing process and initiated earlier by NDA. Please > refer parliament proceedings you will come to know. > > Still I believe that NREGA will prove failure in the near future. No one in > politics has long vision and they want to gain short coverings only and > many > people will not understand immediately. Time will prove it. Wait n watch. > For long development, root infrastructural development is the only better > solution. > > thanks > Bipin > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "swathi shivanand" > To: "Rakesh Iyer" > Cc: "Sarai" > Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2009 6:42 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Election Forecast > > > > Firstly, all victory must be tempered with some sobriety. And difficult > > questions have to be asked. > > > > We are going to have, yet another time, a prime minister who has not > > contested elections. if his record were impeccable, one wonders why he > > chose > > not to stand? One could easily dismiss the idea that 'he was scared that > > he > > would lose" as understandably naive. So what is that had the prime > > ministerial candidate not contest elections? Should we wonder what that > > says > > about his (and by extension the congress' and the upa's) notions about > > democracy and respect for it? > > > > To nuance your point further, The NREGA and the RTI were passed after > much > > prodding and much civil society activism. If the UPA is credited with > > bringing in these programmes and policies, some credit is also due to the > > Left and other Congress allies. > > > > Swathi > > > > On Sat, May 16, 2009 at 4:05 PM, Rakesh Iyer > > wrote: > > > >> Dear all > >> > >> The BJP and the Left have been shown the middle finger in these > >> elections. > >> And for all those in the forum who keep dismissing the Congress, do > >> dismiss > >> dynastic politics, but realize that NREGA, RTI and Right to Forest Land > >> for > >> tribals are important for the 'aam aadmi', so also other issues of > >> livelihood, not your Golden Quadrilateral, economic disinvestment and > >> Narendra Modi-Advani duo's 'strong leadership'. > >> > >> Concentrate on that. Otherwise keep seeing the middle finger shown by > the > >> rest of India to you too. > >> > >> Regards > >> > >> Rakesh > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter http://beta.cricket.yahoo.com From anansi1 at earthlink.net Sat May 16 21:07:11 2009 From: anansi1 at earthlink.net (Paul D. Miller) Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 11:37:11 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [Reader-list] Einsten on Israel and Zionism Message-ID: <32024301.1242488232667.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net> interesting article on a new book that's just coming up. Paul/Dj Spooky A review of Einstein on Zionism and Israel: His Provocative Ideas About the Middle East. By Fred Jerome. St. Martin's Press. May 2009. This book will be released on May 26; it is available for pre-order at The New York Society of Ethical Culture will host a reception to celebrate its release on May 28, 6:30 p.m. 2 West 64th Street in Manhattan. The event is free. Reclaiming Einstein: New Book Reveals Famed Scientist as an Opponent of Israel By Jaisal Noor >From the May 15, 2009 issue Countless books and articles have been written about the life of the great physicist and thinker Albert Einstein, and since his death in 1955, a near consensus has existed that Einstein was a staunch supporter of the state of Israel. Veteran journalist Fred Jerome uses hundreds of pages of Einstein's own letters, articles and interviews - many published for the first time - to refute this thesis. It is well known that Einstein, a German Jew, witnessed European anti-Semitism firsthand and spoke out against both prejudice and Nazism. These experiences convinced Einstein to support Zionism and a Jewish homeland. After gaining immense fame for his scientific breakthroughs, he was offered the presidency of Israel in 1952 after the death of the country's first president, Chaim Weizmann. In reality, while Einstein was sympathetic to the Zionist cause, he repeatedly warned that a "narrow nationalism" may arise if a Jewish-only state was founded and peaceful co-existence with the Palestinians was not achieved. Instead, Einstein advocated Cultural Zionism - the creation of Jewish cultural and educational centers within a bi-national state with equal rights for both Arabs and Jews. When Einstein was offered the Israeli presidency, Israeli Prime Minister David Ben Gurion stated, "I've had to offer him the post because it was impossible not to, but if he accepts we are in for trouble." In a letter written in the same year, Einstein compared the Zionists' project with that of the Pilgrims, noting, "how tyrannical, intolerant and aggressive [they] became after a short while." And in Einstein's last media interview, which ran in the New York Post a month before his death, he stated "We had great hopes for Israel at first. We thought it might be better than other nations, but it is no better." Jerome has authored two previous books about Einstein; The Einstein File: J. Edgar Hoover's Secret War Against the World's Most Famous Scientist and Einstein on Race and Racism, co-authored with Rodger Taylor. These books are essential to understanding Einstein, a self- described "revolutionary," who publicly stated that he would use his fame and celebrity status to bring attention to the causes important to him. For example, Einstein on Race and Racism details for the first time Einstein's 20-year friendship with Paul Robeson. While the first two books were aimed at filling a large gap in the knowledge about Einstein's radical beliefs and political activism, Einstein on Zionism and Israel seeks to debunk the myth that Einstein was a supporter of Israel. In the process, Jerome reveals much about the nature of mainstream propaganda. Einstein's opposition to Israel was widely known and reported on during his life. In fact, the myth of Einstein's support of Israel was born the day after Einstein's death in his obituary in The New York Times, which shamelessly wrote that he "championed" the establishment of the Jewish state. This contradicted decades of reporting from the "Paper of Record." Jerome provides some examples, including a 1930 article headlined "Einstein attacks British Zion Policy," a 1938 article stating Einstein was "Against Palestine State" and a 1946 article stating Einstein "Bars Jewish State." The book ends with a quote from author and intellectual Gore Vidal, "The only question that really matters: Why?" Jerome follows with, "Why have we not known?" The New York Society of Ethical Culture will host a reception to celebrate the release of Einstein on Zionism and Israel May 28, 6:30 p.m. 2 West 64th Street in Manhattan. The event is free. The Indypendent's Jaisal Noor sat down with author Fred Jerome to discuss why Albert Einstein is remembered for his physics and not his politics. Jaisal Noor: Why did you decide to write this book on Einstein and his views on Israel and Zionism? Fred Jerome: When Einstein met Paul Robeson in 1952, Einstein had just turned down the offer to be president of Israel. According to Lloyd Brown [who was present at that meeting] Einstein told Robeson why he had turned down the invitation: He didn't agree with Israel, with the nationalism, the establishment of the state of Israel, and so on. In both my previous books, there was a brief discussion about Israel. In addition, it is so clearly one of the central issues of today's world. We cannot ignore this issue and pretend to be concerned about the world or people in the world. It seemed logical to me that if I was going to be concerned about what was happening in Israel, particularly the Israeli oppression of the Palestinians .. it would be a logical step to write more on what Einstein had to say. I contacted the Einstein Archives in Jerusalem, and they actually thought it would be a good idea and encouraged me and said that they could provide information that probably had never been published before. JN: You started with the Einstein Archive in Jerusalem - where else did you go? FJ: Einstein gave all his papers to the Hebrew University in Jerusalem because he actually helped to found the Hebrew University. As a Cultural Zionist, he was in favor of cultural centers, like universities, but opposed to a Jewish state or nation. I also tried to talk to as many people as possible who talked to Einstein, knew Einstein, who remember Einstein. The most important was [eminent Egyptian journalist] Mohammed Heikel in Cairo. I included this interview, which was certainly never mentioned in any of the more than 100 books on Einstein. JN: Could you describe the reaction the press had to your previous works on Einstein and the reaction you expect from this one? FJ: The press's reaction to the first book, The Einstein File [2002], was one of very significant interest, maybe because J. Edgar Hoover had fallen out of favor with the media in the past 20 years. And so you have a bad guy versus a good guy, Einstein being the good guy. He had just been named Person of the Century by Time Magazine in the year 2000 when I was working on the first book, and I had come up with this file that no one else had - the entire file. So it was a combination of new information and kind of a sexy theme. Then The New York Times devoted a full page of its science section when the book first came out - that helped get the book covered by lots of other media outlets. When the book Einstein on Race and Racism [2006] came out, there was virtually no coverage in the mainstream media. There was some coverage in the Black press, including the Amsterdam News, some of the websites and so on. Publisher's Weekly did a review in which they said that it was a good book, was well written, well researched, no complaints, no criticisms. Einstein was a race man, but so what? Six months after the book came out The New York Times finally did do a review of the book, a very favorable review of the book, and published it only in the New Jersey edition, which has very few readers compared to their other editions. So the contrast was striking. I think primarily because the mainstream media in America really don't want to write about racism in America and certainly don't want to identify Einstein with an antiracist position. The other reason the media have ignored this book is that part of the book is Einstein's friendship with Paul Robeson and while they finally did put Paul Robeson on a postage stamp, after much struggle and protest, clearly the mainstream media and the corporate interests they represent are still afraid of Paul Robeson's leftism, his socialism, activism, the resistance to them he represented. Outside of the mainstream media it has gotten a very positive reaction. [Co-author] Rodger Taylor and I are still getting invited to speak, five years after the book was published, by students and other groups around the country. But the media reaction was clearly "don't touch it." And my anticipation for this book is that most of the mainstream media will have the same reaction to this book, because I think that their attitude on Israel- Palestine for the most part is well over 150 percent support for Washington's total backing of the Israeli government. They have been saying in the mainstream media that Einstein was a big supporter of Israel, and they have been saying that since the day he died, over 60 years ago. They never said it while he was alive. From indersalim at gmail.com Sat May 16 21:14:39 2009 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 21:14:39 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Arundhati Roy in Karachi In-Reply-To: <268486.89301.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <268486.89301.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70905160844i31ca5a6bra6425b02362c7adc@mail.gmail.com> Dear KK i quote you again, AR (on the 'Taliban Boy'): "He was made in a factory that is producing this kind of mind(set). (The question is) who owns that factory, who funds it? Unless we deal with that factory, dealing with the boy doesn’t help us." > > KK: So what should be done about the 'Taliban Boy' while AR indulges in her vaguness of 'who owns the factory, who funds it?'? AR does not want her "Taliban Boy" dealt with. Should we in the meantime invite her 'Taliban Boy' to kill some more; behead some more; rape some more? please explain what KK is reflecting on the above by AR, ( KK is Kshmendra Kaul ) there are other finer nuances in your mail where one can extract meaning they way i have. just tell me, you write " AR does not want her ' Taliban boy' dealt with. now what is the meaning, if not the way i interpreted, what is other meaning, please let me know, yes, if you feel that i tease you too much, please spare the reader list, and come straight with me, i dont have any fears it amuses me, that a well informed person like you cant find the obvious in what he himself is speaking about i remember De Bono he gave example of two dogs one who has a sharp smelling nose, and the other whose nose is dull to reading smells. they both suddenly are in front of a old castle with hundred os rooms. in one of the room there is some dead animal, some food for the two dogs, both them go in , the dog with a sharp smelling power quickly goes in the finds the food, and eats it too, but finds it difficult to find the way out, while the other dog, takes his own time, because of his vagueness, his stupid nose, had to check all the rooms, but finally manages to find the food, and also finds the exit door, too, This is without any malice towards you or anybody else on the list, with love and regards needless to say that i have deep regards for your above average, a shap zeal to reflect the mails which are often potent with thought, so my respect for that at the same time, inder salim Dear Kshmendra : On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 6:07 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Arundhati Roy (AR) is in fashion. Rebel in fashion. A rebel with many causes to whine about with no solutions to offer. Since her grip on realities is uncertain, all that she can indulge in is vague intellectualising. That has always been in demand. Greater the obtuseness, easier it is to be highly thought of by unthinking minds. > > Zubeida Mustafa knowingly or unwittingly brings out the vaguness of AR when she says "Roy’s advice to avoid being ‘with us or against us’ has implications she didn’t elucidate". Zubeida goes on to say "In times when action is needed and a position has to be taken — even if verbally — inaction or neutrality unwittingly props up the status quo." > > How shallow minded AR is, gets highlighted in what are ostensibly quotes from her speech(es) at the WAF meet. > > AR: "In India, there are two kinds of terrorism: one is Islamic terrorism and the other Maoist terrorism. But this term terrorism, we must ask, what do they mean by it. " > > KK: Note the word "they". Who is this "they"? Why did AR fail to mention that there is also public discourse on 'Hindu terrorism' and 'Economic terrorism'.  Even on 'State terrorism' to some degree. What is this "they" she is trying to create? Or, is she trying to say there is no 'terrorism' in India and that it is just a figment of the imagination of the "they"? > > AR: "I’m here to understand what you mean when you say Taliban." > > KK : AR also spoke about a Taliban Boy. How did she know the boy was "Taliban" if she is yet to understand what they mean by "Taliban" in Pakistan? She seems to have her own understanding of that term "Taliban". Why doesnt she tell us what she means by "Taliban"? > > AR (On Taliban): "Do you mean a militant? Do you mean an ideology? Exactly what is it that is being fought? That needs to be clarified. > I think both needs to be fought. But if it’s an ideology it has to be fought differently, while if it’s a person with a gun then it has to be fought differently." > > KK: Is AR such an ignorant idiot that she cannot see that militancy finds it's justifications and reassurances from the ideology? What is shameful about AR is that she uses the term 'militant' for those who have indulged in the most heinous of acts as Taliban and that has gravitated many women in Pakistan (under threat to their lives) to step-out and speak-out against the Taliban. > > AR: "In India, they have been fighting insurgencies military since 1947 and it has become a more dangerous place." > > KK: Note the "they" word again. But, what would AR have India do with those that she herself calls "insurgencies"? AR vagueness without any solutions. And, some doublespeake. In India she often hints at support for separatists. Why does she not espouse for India similar attitudes that she advocates in Pakistan where she proclaims "I think both needs to be fought" (whether militant or ideology)? > > AR (on the 'Taliban Boy'): "He was made in a factory that is producing this kind of mind(set). (The question is) who owns that factory, who funds it? Unless we deal with that factory, dealing with the boy doesn’t help us." > > KK: So what should be done about the 'Taliban Boy' while AR indulges in her vaguness of 'who owns the factory, who funds it?'? AR does not want her "Taliban Boy" dealt with. Should we in the meantime invite her 'Taliban Boy' to kill some more; behead some more; rape some more? > > AR: "The RSS has infiltrated the (Indian) army as much as various kinds of Wahabism or other kinds of religious ideology have infiltrated the ISI or the armed forces in Pakistan." > > KK: Note the words "as much". AR seems to know much more about the Indian Army then the rest of India knows for her to bring about an equivalence in the 'religion infiltration' into the Armed Forces of India and Pakistan. More likely is that she knows very little about the anxieties in Pakistan about the extent to which there is widespread suspicion (in Pakistan and elsewhere) about the continued influence exerted within the ISI and the Armed Forces of Pakistan by hardline religious ideology inspite of major efforts (especially by Musharraf) to unshackle them. > > Kshmendra > > --- On Wed, 5/13/09, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > Subject: [Reader-list] Arundhati Roy in Karachi > To: "reader-list at sarai.net list" > Date: Wednesday, May 13, 2009, 8:07 AM > > > Dear All, > > The Delhi based writer Arundhati Roy has recently been in Karachi, > Pakistan at the invitation of civil society organizations and womens > rights groups. Here are two reports from Dawn, a Karachi based daily, > about meetings she attended (with an organization titled 'Womens > Action Forum') and interactions she had. I hope that they will be of > interest to people on the list. > > regards, > > Shuddha > ------------------------------ > 1. > > Arundhati Roy and the WAF > By Zubeida Mustafa > Wednesday, 13 May, 2009 > http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/ > pakistan/11-arundhati-roy-and-the-waf--02 > > ‘WOMEN to reclaim public spaces: a programme of defiance and > resistance.’ That is how the Women’s Action Forum defined the meeting > it held last Friday to mobilise public opinion against extremism. > > Although WAF’s concern to protect the space women have created in the > public mainstream has been on its agenda for some time, this goal has > acquired urgency in the wake of the events in Swat. The Nizam-i-Adl > Regulation in Malakand Division has brought people face to face with > the ugly reality of the Talibanisation phenomenon in the rural > backwaters as well as in modern urban centres. > > The Karachi meeting was well-attended by WAF’s standards. It is not > easy to mobilise women for any cause in this city of multiple > identities. The metropolis has a diversity of populations, cultures, > languages and economic interests posing a challenge to bring women > together on a single platform. Learning from its experience of the > lawyers’ movement that had succeeded in uniting the extreme right and > centrist political parties and the professionals on a single-point > agenda for two years, WAF also decided to make Talibanisation and > women the focal issue. > > That strategy paid off. Women had already been galvanised by the > video showing the flogging of a teenaged girl in Swat that activist > Samar Minallah courageously brought to the world media’s attention, > invoking in the process the wrath of the Taliban whose fatwa declared > her as wajibul qatl. The oppression of women is an issue that cuts > across classes to touch every female raw nerve. Whether it is the > smartly turned-out high-society woman or the working woman who slaves > all day long to feed an army of children and a drug-addict husband or > even the heavily veiled orthodox woman, each type, with few > exceptions, has expressed her horror at the flogging incident. > > Hence on this occasion WAF managed to bring a diverse crowd together > — the activists reaching out to the grassroots such as Amar Sindhu > from Sindh University Hyderabad, Parveen Rahman from the Orangi Pilot > Project and Sadiqa Salahuddin whose Indus Resource Centre runs > schools in the interior of Sindh, as well as the elites sitting side > by side with the three van-loads of women from Neelum Colony who > clean the homes of the rich and will be starting their adult literacy > classes from next week, courtesy Shabina’s Garage School. > > The variety of speakers focusing on the theme of women’s oppression > by the Taliban found a responsive audience. But the question that > made many ponder was: what next? Can this interest be sustained? If > they had not already started probing for answers, the thought- > provoking speech by Arundhati Roy, the renowned Indian writer and > activist, did the trick. Coming from New Delhi on a solidarity > mission to WAF’s meeting. Roy raised four issues: > > • What do we mean by the Taliban and what gave birth to them? > > • Define your own space and do not surrender it. > > • Don’t allow yourself to be forced into making choices of the ‘with > us or against us’ type. > > • Don’t be selective in your injustices. > > These should provide food for thought for those struggling against > oppression. Without being specific, Roy exhorted her audience to look > into the structures and systems that lead to a situation of such > extreme oppression, some of which is rooted in the class conflict. > She believes one has to take a ‘total view’ of the matter, which she > admitted she had come to Pakistan to understand. > > The fact is that we live in a largely grey area where the lines are > not sharply drawn. There is a lot of overlapping between issues > touching gender, class, ethnicity, culture, political power and > economic gains. It is this reality one has to recognise and see how > the contradictions can be addressed. The demand to take sides > unambiguously, expressed so vividly in the days following 9/11 by > George Bush as ‘You are with us or against us,’ can create a dilemma > for people when negotiating these grey areas. > > Roy’s advice to avoid being ‘with us or against us’ has implications > she didn’t elucidate. In times when action is needed and a position > has to be taken — even if verbally — inaction or neutrality > unwittingly props up the status quo. If the status quo has been > created by inimical forces ostensibly now fighting their self-created > Frankenstein, where does one go? > > The practical approach would be to prioritise strategies that can be > adapted to changing circumstances. And what should these be? Here Roy > has a point when she says that one cannot be selective in the > justices one espouses and the injustices one denounces. In this > context Pakistanis find themselves trapped between the devil and the > deep sea. Attempting to rectify a problem here and another there > really doesn’t help because our entire state structure is colonial, > as a booklet titled Making Pakistan a Tenable State points out. > > Produced by 17 intellectuals, with Dr Mubashir Hasan as the driving > force, the book describes the state structure as being ‘based on the > concentration of political and administrative power in the steel > frame of the civil services under the protection of the armed forces. > The structure could be defined as feudal-military-bureaucratic.’ > > The problem is systemic. In a state ruled by ‘a government of the > elites, by the elites, for the elites’ it is inevitable that it is > authoritarian and exploitative. Change can come when there is > mobilisation of the people for change. When WAF mobilises women to > fight against injustices it prepares them to also fight for change. > The need is to empower them and instill confidence in them. > > Two women I have written about who are fighting for change come from > the poorest of the poor and theirs is not a feminist agenda. They are > fighting to have a roof above their heads. One is the wife of Walidad > from Muhammad Essa Khaskheli who came all the way to Karachi in the > heat of summer to save her goth from being snapped up by a feudal in > the neighbourhood. > > The other is Parveen whose one-room ‘mansion’ in a katchi abadi of > Clifton is now under threat of demolition. She is resisting the > exploitative system that cannot provide shelter to the poor. > Initially she hesitated — was it ‘proper’ for a woman to protest she > had asked me. When encouraged she decided it was. These are women on > the way to empowerment and that is WAF’s agenda. > >   2. > > ‘I’m here to understand what you mean by Taliban’ > by Salman Siddiqui > Friday, 08 May, 2009 > http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/ > pakistan/arundhati-roy-sal-02 > > Is there a threat of Talibanisation engulfing the entire region? > > I think it has already engulfed our region. I think there’s a need > for a very clear thinking (on this issue of Talibanisation). In > India, there are two kinds of terrorism: one is Islamic terrorism and > the other Maoist terrorism. But this term terrorism, we must ask, > what do they mean by it. > > In Pakistan, I’m here to understand what they mean by this term. When > we say we must fight the Taliban or must defeat them, what does it > mean? I’m here to understand what you mean when you say Taliban. Do > you mean a militant? Do you mean an ideology? Exactly what is it that > is being fought? That needs to be clarified. > > I think both needs to be fought. But if it’s an ideology it has to be > fought differently, while if it’s a person with a gun then it has to > be fought differently. We know from the history of the war on terror > that a military strategy is only making matters worse all over the > world. The war on terror has made the world a more dangerous place. > In India, they have been fighting insurgencies military since 1947 > and it has become a more dangerous place. > > Swat and the Taliban boy > > It is very important for me to understand what exactly is going in > Swat. How did it start? A Taliban boy asked me why women can’t be > like plastic bags and banned. The point is that the plastic bag was > made in a factory but so was the boy. He was made in a factory that > is producing this kind of mind(set). (The question is) who owns that > factory, who funds it? Unless we deal with that factory, dealing with > the boy doesn’t help us. > > Water is the main issue > > One danger in Pakistan is that we talk about the threat of Taliban so > much that other important issues lose focus. In my view, the problem > of water in the world will become the most important problem.  I > think big dams are economically unviable, environmentally > unsustainable and politically undemocratic. They are a way of taking > away a river from the poor and giving it to the rich. Like in India, > there’s an issue of SEZs (Special Economic Zones), whereby the land > of the people are given to corporations. But the bigger problem is > that there are making dams and giving water to the industries. This > way the people who live in villages by the streams and rivers have no > water for themselves. So building dams is one of the most > ecologically destructive things that you can do. > > Fight over Siachen glacier > > There are thousands of Pakistani and Indian soldiers deployed on the > Siachen glacier. Both of our countries are spending billions of > dollars on high altitude warfare and weapons. The whole of the > Siachen glacier is sort of an icy monument to human folly. Each day > it is being filled with ice axes, old boots, tents and so on. > Meanwhile, that battlefield is melting. Siachen glacier is about half > its size now. It’s not melting because the Indian and Pakistani > soldiers are on it. But it’s because people somewhere on the other > side of the world are leading a good life….in countries that call > themselves democracies that believe in human rights and free speech. > Their economies depend on selling weapons to both of us. Now, when > that glacier melts, there will be floods first, then there will be a > drought and then we’ll have even more reasons to fight. We’ll buy > more weapons from those democracies and in this way human beings will > prove themselves to be the stupidest animals on earth. > > Money and the Indian elections > > Whatever system of government you have, whether it is a military > dictatorship or a democracy, and you have that for a long time, > eventually big money manages to subvert it. That has begun to happen > even in a democracy (like India). For example, political parties need > a lot of publicity, but the media is also run by corporate money. If > you look at the big political parties like the Congress and the BJP, > you see how much money is being put out just in their advertising > budgets. Now where does all that come from? > > RSS and the Indian establishment > > The RSS has infiltrated everything to a great extent. In India, we > have 120-150 million Muslims and it’s considered a minority…It’s > impossible to not belong to a minority of some sort in India. Caste > or ethnicity or religion or whatever, in some way everyone belongs to > a minority. The fights that many of us are waging against the RSS and > against the BJP are to say that we live in a society which > accommodates everybody. Everybody doesn’t have to love everybody, but > everybody has to be accommodated.  The RSS has infiltrated the > (Indian) army as much as various kinds of Wahabism or other kinds of > religious ideology have infiltrated the ISI or the armed forces in > Pakistan. They are human beings like everyone else and they too get > influenced. > > Indian media and sensationalizing of news coming out from Pakistan > > I think the media in both countries play this game. Whenever > something happens here, they hype it up there, while when something > happens there, they hype the news here. We say that we live in times > of an information revolution and free press, but even then nobody > gets to know the complete picture… > > The Pakistani media is a little different from the Indian media. They > stand on a slightly different foundation. But both share the problem > of a lack of accountability…The trouble in India is that 90 per cent > of their revenue comes from the corporate sector…there’s increasing > privatization and corporatization of governance, education, health, > infrastructure and water management. So in India you see an open > criticism of governance, but very rarely criticism of corporations. > It’s a structural problem. It’s not about good people or bad people. > It’s just that you can’t expect a company to work against itself. > This is a very serious issue which needs to be sorted out. > > Is the Indian army a sacred cow? > > The Indian army is quite a sacred cow especially on TV and Bollywood. > But at the same time if you talk to the people in the Indian army, > they say that they feel that the media is very critical of them. I > don’t share that view. I think it is a sacred cow. People are willing > to give them a lot of leeway. > > Women and their fight for justice > > When women fight for justice, we must fight for every kind of justice… > We must fight for justice for men and justice for children. Because > if you fight for one kind of justice and you tolerate another, then > it’s a pretty hollow fight. You may not be able to fight every > battle, but you should be able to put yourself on the line and say I > believe this. > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From gabriel at srishti.ac.in Sat May 16 21:21:18 2009 From: gabriel at srishti.ac.in (Gabriel Harp) Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 21:21:18 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Center for Experimental Media Arts (CEMA) call for applications Message-ID: <76EBBD36-524D-45D6-93F5-40C272EBAAFB@srishti.ac.in> The Center for Experimental Media Arts (CEMA) at the Srishti School of Art Design & Technology (Bangalore, India) seeks artists, hackers, writers, engineers and scientists of all social and physical variations to enroll in the advanced diploma in Experimental Media Arts. Students will join the CEMA lab for 2.5 years and work with artists in residence and Srishti faculty on collaborative and individualized transdisplinary research. The theme for the upcoming semester is PUBLIC MEDIA. Previous semester themes have ranged from space arts, biological arts, cybernetics, and envirocasting. Applications are accepted on a rolling basis until the beginning of the semester. The fall semester begins in Bangalore, on August 3rd. For more information about the lab and the advanced diploma visit: http://cema.srishti.ac.in/ Prospective students can find out how to apply here: http:// cema.srishti.ac.in/content/admissions Questions should be directed to gabriel at srishti.ac.in FAQ for APPLICANTS: ENTRY REQUIREMENTS Q: What kind of undergraduate (UG) degree do I need? Students who have completed a degree in the Arts, Architecture, Science, Engineering, Humanities, Law, Social Sciences or Business are eligible for entry. If the candidate has not completed a UG, 2-4 years of professional experience may be considered as an equivalent to UG. All others are considered on a case by case basis. There is no age requirement for entry into the program. The requirements for applying to the program are: 1. an application form with personal statement 2. A portfolio of work and / or writings. Appropriate candidates will be invited for a personal interview. Q: What type of students do you accept? Successful candidates for the Advanced Diploma in Experimental Media Arts will have a variety of interests and accomplishments. We do not expect all candidates to have formal training in the visual or media arts, but candidates should express an interest in creatively engaging topics using experimental media arts as a medium of investigation. In the past students have arrived at the lab and begun work in areas such as Physical Computing, Bio-Arts, Participatory Design, and Tactical Media. Successful candidates demonstrate combinations of curiosity, self-direction, open-mindedness and maturity. Q: What should be in my portfolio? Candidates for entry into the CEMA advanced diploma may have a variety of achievements in art and non-art background. Although not all candidates will have a proper visual art portfolio we require a portfolio of work or accomplishments. This portfolio may include anything from published scientific papers to poetry, blogs or documentation of political activism. We know that candidates have a variety of interests and backgrounds and the portfolio is an opportunity to share those with the selection committee. Q: Are international students allowed to apply? Yes. Srishti is an international institution. All course work at Srishti is conducted in English. We have many students, faculty and visitors from around the world. If you are not from India and have questions about studying and living in India please contact us by email and we will be happy to answer your questions. THE ADVANCED DIPLOMA PROGRAM Q: What will I learn at the lab? It is expected that students in the Advanced Diploma in Experimental Media Art will: produce creative work | bring their work to the world through exhibition and distribution | develop collaborative strategies for a variety of situations | increase their global network of individuals and organizations through internships and participation in e- communities | engage with local organizations and communities in and around Bangalore | engage in critical reflection of their work and the work of their peers | articulate verbally and in text the social, political, and technological implications of their creative work | develop an ethical framework for their creative work Q: How much does the program cost? The program fees are 125,000 rp. a year. [US$ 3,150] [Euro: 2,170] Q: Where is the lab located? The CEMA lab is a part of the Srishti School of Art, Design and Technology located in Bangalore, India.The School is in the Yelehanka (New Town) neighborhood, very close to the new International Airport. The 2.5 year program is an in-residence program, although there are opportunities for travel to conferences in India and internationally, and it is expected that students take international internships or shows during the summer break. Centre for Experimental Media Arts [Bangalore, India] http://cema.srishti.ac.in/ From ysaeed7 at yahoo.com Sat May 16 21:55:46 2009 From: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com (Yousuf) Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 09:25:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Support for Swat refugees Message-ID: <707323.99840.qm@web51410.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Support for Swat Refugees http://www.danka.com.pk/swatrelief.php Several hundred thousand people fled the war zone of Swat and nearby areas. The local population has accommodated a majority of these refugees, as per their customs, in their homes, hujras, and schools. Many of these refugees are fed and taken care of by the locals and are not yet 'registered'. The refugees in the camps are mostly those who could not be accommodated in the already overcrowded structures. (Meaning, the actual figures are probably much higher). The government has problems providing infrastructure and coordination. The Internally Displaced People (IDPs) of Swat need support of their country(wo)men in these difficult times. Please come forward and play your part in helping them make through to a better future. Please note that Danka is voluntarily providing the following information only for wider public awareness on donation options. Danka team shall keep adding more information on other NGOs and organizations directly involved in helping the IDPs. Danka has no official or unofficial arrangement with any of the listed organizations on this page and urge you to make informed decision on your donations and contributions. The best way is to call the organizations and inquire about their scope of activity and how you can help. Even spreading the information for various donation options is a contribution on your part. What can you do? We provide here an alphabetical order list of some NGO’s working for relief that you can contact and support. Danka is not responsible for the work of these NGOs - please go through their portfolio and decide yourself whom do you want to support. Please also drop in comments and update us with more names and contacts. Al-Khidmat Foundation http://al-khidmatfoundation.org/donate-here.php Edhi Foundation http://www.edhifoundation.com/contact.asp Islamic Relief Worldwide https://donations.islamic-relief.com/signin.asp Pakistan Red Crescent Society http://www.prcs.org.pk/donation.asp Pakistan IDP Team http://pakistanidps.wordpress.com/ Sahara for Life Trust http://www.saharaforlife.org/donate.htm Sungi Development Foundation http://www.pacenetworkpk.com/donation_details.asp UM Healthcare Trust http://www.umtrust.org/donate UN High Commission for Refugees: Global and Online Donors http://www.unhcr.org/emergency/pakistan/global_landing.html For donations locally the UNHCR will shortly setup a page for engaging the general public. About Donations and Development Work Our own experiences in the earthquake relief (some Danka members were working in Kashmir for several months) have shown that the best way to help is to support trustworthy individuals who work closely on site with the people. Basically there are two forms of help - immediate help required as food/medical support/accommodation, etc. and sustainable support as building up local infrastructure, employment, coordination between the locals, etc. If you donate then you take responsibility that the money or goods you kindly give also fulfill the purpose. Please take this fact serious and control that work is being done as presented by the individuals or NGOs you support. A comment from a person who just came from the area is: "Give relief goods/cash ONLY to those who can personally deliver or trustworthy established organizations. It is a first hand experience from the earthquake and past few days that 'humanity' is at its best in such situations, especially when it comes to Pakistani Muslims (Please accept the truth!). Very few things reach to the needy. While most of us are satisfied by contributing to the collection points, in reality it doesn't work that way. Don't get overwhelmed by the slogans and banners! Just act wisely. Please supervise your donations as good as possible - you can not fully trust even those who are working at the camps." Thank you for your support! From delhi.yunus at gmail.com Sat May 16 23:02:23 2009 From: delhi.yunus at gmail.com (Syed Yunus) Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 23:02:23 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Election Forecast In-Reply-To: <514676.38420.qm@web94715.mail.in2.yahoo.com> References: <514676.38420.qm@web94715.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Friends, It doesn't matter weather BJP win or loose, even if hindutva advocates are trying to hide behind the " Acceptance of their defeat by senior leaders, i strongly urge you guys to please please start campaigns to make Advani Ji the Next PM, ( specially the e- propaganda expert ) after so many years of hard work he deserves to be the PM.( even if he does not qualify for the nationalist logic) And if it is not possible atleast try to make his image clearer by raising other debates of who is more stronger and more suitable so that at least his supporters can believe that his soul will rest in peace. Three cheers ! for Mazboot Neta and Nirnayak Sarkar, and the *waner sena !!!* Yunus On 5/16/09, Vedavati Jogi wrote: > > i never vote for congress or bjp > i am neither a right wing nor a left wing person > > i vote for bharat i vote for hindutva > i speak whatever (i feel) is good for my nation > > as i have already said, i am a narrow minded nationalist > i don't understand 'vasudhaiva kutumbakam' (because i know other countries > will not even allow me to enter their boundaries if i don't have their > visas.) > > i can't compete with broad minded seculars like you in this aspect. > > by the way i don't have any gains on this list as mentioned by you. > > vedavati > - On Sat, 16/5/09, anupam chakravartty wrote: > > > From: anupam chakravartty > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Election Forecast > To: "sarai list" <> > Date: Saturday, 16 May, 2009, 10:11 PM > > > im shocked ... suddenly our right wing friends have found a new ally in > congress: > > Vedavati (while maintaining: "and last but not least, bjp did not try to > 'unify' hindus. if they do so in coming 5 years' span, they will definitely > bounce back in 2014") has said: > "congress has given new young faces while bjp has presented same faces -no > new young leader except varun gandhi. (i think there are better examples > here for you provided you knew Ritesh Vasava contesting from Surat) > > bjp has talked about old issues like ram mandir for which they have already > lost their credibility." > > and now Bipin: > "Also sign of maturity by public to elect main national party and that way > avoiding black mailing from pseudo-secularists like left, lalu, paswan, > mayavati, mulayam and so many." > > Can you guys be little less shallow? Or you still as someone recently > pointed, are deciding on who is secular and pseudo-secular (at times, using > the phrase "sickular") for your petty gains on this reader's list. But on > second thoughts, your admissions have a tinge of honesty in it, which is > why > i am citing it on this mail. hope we dont have an election for next five > years. > > regards and best wishes > > anupam > > > On 5/16/09, bipin wrote: > > > > Dear All. > > > > People verdict is final and one should accept gracefully. The point > raised > > that PM is not elected is right. But, he personally is good man and that > > appeals to the people. > > > > Also sign of maturity by public to elect main national party and that way > > avoiding black mailing from pseudo-secularists like left, lalu, paswan, > > mayavati, mulayam and so many. With majority lots of money will be saved, > > which was going to hand of this much more corrupt people. > > > > NREGA was not congress baby really it was imposed by left, but even left > > lost heavily. RTI was ongoing process and initiated earlier by NDA. > Please > > refer parliament proceedings you will come to know. > > > > Still I believe that NREGA will prove failure in the near future. No one > in > > politics has long vision and they want to gain short coverings only and > > many > > people will not understand immediately. Time will prove it. Wait n watch. > > For long development, root infrastructural development is the only better > > solution. > > > > thanks > > Bipin > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "swathi shivanand" > > To: "Rakesh Iyer" > > Cc: "Sarai" > > Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2009 6:42 PM > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Election Forecast > > > > > > > Firstly, all victory must be tempered with some sobriety. And difficult > > > questions have to be asked. > > > > > > We are going to have, yet another time, a prime minister who has not > > > contested elections. if his record were impeccable, one wonders why he > > > chose > > > not to stand? One could easily dismiss the idea that 'he was scared > that > > > he > > > would lose" as understandably naive. So what is that had the prime > > > ministerial candidate not contest elections? Should we wonder what that > > > says > > > about his (and by extension the congress' and the upa's) notions about > > > democracy and respect for it? > > > > > > To nuance your point further, The NREGA and the RTI were passed after > > much > > > prodding and much civil society activism. If the UPA is credited with > > > bringing in these programmes and policies, some credit is also due to > the > > > Left and other Congress allies. > > > > > > Swathi > > > > > > On Sat, May 16, 2009 at 4:05 PM, Rakesh Iyer > > > wrote: > > > > > >> Dear all > > >> > > >> The BJP and the Left have been shown the middle finger in these > > >> elections. > > >> And for all those in the forum who keep dismissing the Congress, do > > >> dismiss > > >> dynastic politics, but realize that NREGA, RTI and Right to Forest > Land > > >> for > > >> tribals are important for the 'aam aadmi', so also other issues of > > >> livelihood, not your Golden Quadrilateral, economic disinvestment and > > >> Narendra Modi-Advani duo's 'strong leadership'. > > >> > > >> Concentrate on that. Otherwise keep seeing the middle finger shown by > > the > > >> rest of India to you too. > > >> > > >> Regards > > >> > > >> Rakesh > > >> _________________________________________ > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >> Critiques & Collaborations > > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > >> subscribe in the subject header. > > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >> List archive: > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter > http://beta.cricket.yahoo.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- Change is the only constant in life ! From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sat May 16 23:20:15 2009 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 23:20:15 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Election Forecast In-Reply-To: References: <514676.38420.qm@web94715.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6353c690905161050x3e66e47gc9c2d4cd91d20786@mail.gmail.com> You seem tired Mr. Syed Yunus. The defeatist attitude in your e-mail tells another tale. Advani ji atleast became Deputy PM and Home Minister. Wonder if you are a member of UPSC or Minority Commission taking decision on qualification of a prospective PM ? Don't lose heart friend. There will be another bright day soon. Did I see a leftist jholahwallah running for cover somewhere down the street ? Ah! Good Night On Sat, May 16, 2009 at 11:02 PM, Syed Yunus wrote: > Friends, > > It doesn't matter weather BJP win or loose, even if hindutva advocates are > trying to hide behind the " Acceptance of their defeat by senior leaders, i > strongly urge you guys to please please start campaigns to make Advani Ji > the Next PM, ( specially the e- propaganda expert ) after so many years of > hard work he deserves to be the PM.( even if he does not qualify for the > nationalist logic) > And if it is not possible atleast try to make his image clearer by raising > other debates of who is more stronger and more suitable so that at least > his supporters can believe that his soul will rest in peace. > > Three cheers ! for Mazboot Neta and Nirnayak Sarkar, and the *waner sena > !!!* > > Yunus > > > On 5/16/09, Vedavati Jogi wrote: > > > > i never vote for congress or bjp > > i am neither a right wing nor a left wing person > > > > i vote for bharat i vote for hindutva > > i speak whatever (i feel) is good for my nation > > > > as i have already said, i am a narrow minded nationalist > > i don't understand 'vasudhaiva kutumbakam' (because i know other > countries > > will not even allow me to enter their boundaries if i don't have their > > visas.) > > > > i can't compete with broad minded seculars like you in this aspect. > > > > by the way i don't have any gains on this list as mentioned by you. > > > > vedavati > > - On Sat, 16/5/09, anupam chakravartty wrote: > > > > > > From: anupam chakravartty > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Election Forecast > > To: "sarai list" <> > > Date: Saturday, 16 May, 2009, 10:11 PM > > > > > > im shocked ... suddenly our right wing friends have found a new ally in > > congress: > > > > Vedavati (while maintaining: "and last but not least, bjp did not try to > > 'unify' hindus. if they do so in coming 5 years' span, they will > definitely > > bounce back in 2014") has said: > > "congress has given new young faces while bjp has presented same faces > -no > > new young leader except varun gandhi. (i think there are better examples > > here for you provided you knew Ritesh Vasava contesting from Surat) > > > > bjp has talked about old issues like ram mandir for which they have > already > > lost their credibility." > > > > and now Bipin: > > "Also sign of maturity by public to elect main national party and that > way > > avoiding black mailing from pseudo-secularists like left, lalu, paswan, > > mayavati, mulayam and so many." > > > > Can you guys be little less shallow? Or you still as someone recently > > pointed, are deciding on who is secular and pseudo-secular (at times, > using > > the phrase "sickular") for your petty gains on this reader's list. But on > > second thoughts, your admissions have a tinge of honesty in it, which is > > why > > i am citing it on this mail. hope we dont have an election for next five > > years. > > > > regards and best wishes > > > > anupam > > > > > > On 5/16/09, bipin wrote: > > > > > > Dear All. > > > > > > People verdict is final and one should accept gracefully. The point > > raised > > > that PM is not elected is right. But, he personally is good man and > that > > > appeals to the people. > > > > > > Also sign of maturity by public to elect main national party and that > way > > > avoiding black mailing from pseudo-secularists like left, lalu, paswan, > > > mayavati, mulayam and so many. With majority lots of money will be > saved, > > > which was going to hand of this much more corrupt people. > > > > > > NREGA was not congress baby really it was imposed by left, but even > left > > > lost heavily. RTI was ongoing process and initiated earlier by NDA. > > Please > > > refer parliament proceedings you will come to know. > > > > > > Still I believe that NREGA will prove failure in the near future. No > one > > in > > > politics has long vision and they want to gain short coverings only and > > > many > > > people will not understand immediately. Time will prove it. Wait n > watch. > > > For long development, root infrastructural development is the only > better > > > solution. > > > > > > thanks > > > Bipin > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "swathi shivanand" > > > To: "Rakesh Iyer" > > > Cc: "Sarai" > > > Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2009 6:42 PM > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Election Forecast > > > > > > > > > > Firstly, all victory must be tempered with some sobriety. And > difficult > > > > questions have to be asked. > > > > > > > > We are going to have, yet another time, a prime minister who has not > > > > contested elections. if his record were impeccable, one wonders why > he > > > > chose > > > > not to stand? One could easily dismiss the idea that 'he was scared > > that > > > > he > > > > would lose" as understandably naive. So what is that had the prime > > > > ministerial candidate not contest elections? Should we wonder what > that > > > > says > > > > about his (and by extension the congress' and the upa's) notions > about > > > > democracy and respect for it? > > > > > > > > To nuance your point further, The NREGA and the RTI were passed after > > > much > > > > prodding and much civil society activism. If the UPA is credited with > > > > bringing in these programmes and policies, some credit is also due to > > the > > > > Left and other Congress allies. > > > > > > > > Swathi > > > > > > > > On Sat, May 16, 2009 at 4:05 PM, Rakesh Iyer > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > >> Dear all > > > >> > > > >> The BJP and the Left have been shown the middle finger in these > > > >> elections. > > > >> And for all those in the forum who keep dismissing the Congress, do > > > >> dismiss > > > >> dynastic politics, but realize that NREGA, RTI and Right to Forest > > Land > > > >> for > > > >> tribals are important for the 'aam aadmi', so also other issues of > > > >> livelihood, not your Golden Quadrilateral, economic disinvestment > and > > > >> Narendra Modi-Advani duo's 'strong leadership'. > > > >> > > > >> Concentrate on that. Otherwise keep seeing the middle finger shown > by > > > the > > > >> rest of India to you too. > > > >> > > > >> Regards > > > >> > > > >> Rakesh > > > >> _________________________________________ > > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > >> Critiques & Collaborations > > > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > >> subscribe in the subject header. > > > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > >> List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > > Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter > > http://beta.cricket.yahoo.com > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > -- > > Change is the only constant in life ! > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Aditya Raj Kaul From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Sun May 17 00:11:28 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 00:11:28 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Election Forecast In-Reply-To: <6353c690905161050x3e66e47gc9c2d4cd91d20786@mail.gmail.com> References: <514676.38420.qm@web94715.mail.in2.yahoo.com> <6353c690905161050x3e66e47gc9c2d4cd91d20786@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear all I had gone out, so apologies (if required) for the delay. Unlike Anupam jee, I don't have problems with people changing their views provided they stick to it. So I won't comment on that. What I will comment on are some interesting thoughts. First of all, India has a parliamentary system where people choose their representatives on the first by post principle, and there are a number of factors at play. What is certainly not a factor (neither in 2004 nor in 2009 as CSDS surveys done by Yogendra Yadav repeatedly indicate) is the issue of the Prime Minister. Forget Advani or Manmohan Singh or Rahul Gandhi or Narendra Modi. Even if Lord Krishna, Lord Ram, Prophet Muhammad or Jesus Christ were to stand for the post of Prime Minister, it would hardly make an effect, simply because people don't vote for personalities as PM. The major issues before people are concerned with their livelihood, be it 'roti, kapda and makan', water, health (this means a good hospital with working people and working equipments in the village or nearby places), good connection to cities through roads, education, and in this particular issue, two more issues were important: inflation and security. So actually, the BJP did have issues to fight with: inflation and terrorism. Except that BJP doesn't have a great record in them either. As far as inflation is concerned, I can only remind of the 1998 elections in Delhi, Rajasthan and Madhya Pradesh, where BJP suffered a 440-KV shock on losing state elections. And as for terrorism, we all know how they fared. The Kandahar fiasco, the Parliament attack, the Godhra incident (I mention this here because the Gujarat BJP unit repeatedly mentioned this as an ISI-sponsored attack, so they can clarify on this. I mention it as an intelligence failure), the Akshardham temple attack, the Raghunath temple attack, the bomb blasts in Mulund and Ghatkopar, and so on. So before throwing stones at others, the BJP should look at its' own shallow record with respect to terror in the past. And on top of all this, then they have the foolishness in them to say that L.K. Advani is a strong leader. And to indicate this, they had posters showing Advani clenching his fists! Great! That way we could have put one of the wrestlers who had won a bronze medal for us in Olympics 2008 as the PM candidate! Nobody could have been stronger than that! Strength doesn't come by repeatedly saying that 'I am strong'. A person who is strong will never say that about himself; it's others who say that about him. Here we had Advani shooting off his own mouth about how strong he was. And people knew how to respond. Secondly, contrary to your statements Vedavati jee, the BJP hasn't done that well as expected. In MP, it was expected to win more than 20 seats. And Congress was not certainly expecting 10 seats which it won there. As for Rajasthan, BJP has been wiped out when compared to last election. Only Chhatisgarh and Gujarat are the states where BJP has done better than previous times, in addition to Jharkhand of course. Thirdly, you are right. BJP should have expanded their base. But base could have been expanded by throwing away Hindutva (which ironically brings to them supporters like you but alienates many), and trying to become a right-centrist party. People would have had no problems if BJP had no trust on Pakistan, wanted India to become a super-power, and had stated that they weren't embarassed on their Hindu roots. Instead, the BJP just seems hell bent on attacking minorities where and when they can (Kandhamal and Karnataka being best examples) and then wants Muslims and Christians to vote for them! How do they expect a Muslim woman to vote for them when under their reign, she was raped in the name of 'Jai Shree Ram' by activists related to the larger parivar to which the BJP belongs? Similarly on the issue of appeasement. It is right that the Congress and others have practiced Muslim appeasement. But does this mean Muslims should be punished? When Muslims haven't progressed, then it's the fault of the Congress. How are they being then 'pampered'? Vote bank politics is actually to disadvantage of Muslims, and the BJP should have come to their rescue by providing them development. Instead, the BJP gave them post-Godhra as gift. Fourth. Can Bipin jee inform me (or anybody else for that matter) as to the proceedings under NDA which point to RTI? I would be glad to know. Fifth. Swathi jee, I think you raised two vital points. I agree with you that it's not the Congress or the Left (do read this Bipin jee, this is for you too) which brought either the NREGA or the RTI, it's the social movements which brought them. And I appreciate the courage they showed in their movement and the pressure they exerted, which was accepted by the Left at very late stage, and finally this act was introduced. One must never forget the kind of pressure exerted by the Times of India-Economic Times-Ambani-English mainstream media-their elitist friends combine, to ensure the NREGA never got passed. But the larger point also remains that this govt did pass it. Would the NDA have ever passed it? You know better than me what the answer to that would be. Therefore, we must accept their small contribution to getting this act passed and appreciate it, though the first credit to it lies with all those who fought tooth and nail in the first place to get the act passed. And Bipin jee, the NREGA was brought through a social movement. Better go and find about it rather than cribbing about policies you don't know a thing about. And as for your infrastructural development, the people of India would want NREGA first rather than the Golden Quadrilateral. The second point Swathi jee has raised is about an elected PM. Personally, I would have liked Manmohan Singh jee to fight the election and win it. That would have silenced many people who always look upon him as the 'stooge of Sonia'. However, unlike others, I wouldn't feel so bad about it. The larger issue is always the livelihood of people, and while Sonia may not have the responsibilities of the PM, she has the responsibilities of ensuring her party wins elections. Therefore, even if the PM doesn't listen, she has to listen to the voice of India, as she had to in the case of NREGA and RTI. Therefore, I don't worry much whether Manmohan is elected or not. I though have another reason as to why a PM should be elected. When a PM like say Vajpayee gets elected and then becomes PM, he knows the ways and means to win elections. And therefore he equally knows when to start something, where to stop (why, where and when), where to set agendas and where to start working upon them. Manmohan I don't think has that political experience an elected PM have to manage his allies. This is clear from the way he reacted at different times to the nuclear deal. His reactions wouldn't have changed so much had he been an elected PM. Perhaps he could have handled the Left better in that case. But again this is only my speculation. It may be true, or it may be false. And democracy is not about elections. It is about giving rights to citizens and ensure that they are indeed actually provided those rights. So an elected PM or not is not a big issue. What is are the rights of people to secure their livelihood. If the BJP gains this huge lesson from this election, I would be the most happy person on this planet. And my frustration at this not happening is what made me write in a nasty way, for which I am sorry. I would not repeat that again. And if the BJP doesn't learn it, then we need another party to come at centre to fight against Congress and displace BJP from its pole. And finally, the last word from one of my friends who also happens to be a member of this list: The BJP lost because the revenues obtained through growth are spent only to further growth. The Congress won because it spent partially the revenues obtained through growth to bring up the poor to above-subsistence level and contributed in some measure to equitable development in this manner. Regards Rakesh From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sun May 17 00:27:45 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 00:27:45 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Election Forecast In-Reply-To: References: <514676.38420.qm@web94715.mail.in2.yahoo.com> <6353c690905161050x3e66e47gc9c2d4cd91d20786@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70905161157x566074e6wea1d5feb85340601@mail.gmail.com> Great show by Congress ..... However the best thing about this election was the worst performance of Left in last 40 years. Advani Ji now needs a peaceful retirement and perhaps may be rewarded with Gratuity and other benefits..... Pawan On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 12:11 AM, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > Dear all > > I had gone out, so apologies (if required) for the delay. > > Unlike Anupam jee, I don't have problems with people changing their views > provided they stick to it. So I won't comment on that. > > What I will comment on are some interesting thoughts. First of all, India > has a parliamentary system where people choose their representatives on the > first by post principle, and there are a number of factors at play. What is > certainly not a factor (neither in 2004 nor in 2009 as CSDS surveys done by > Yogendra Yadav repeatedly indicate) is the issue of the Prime Minister. > > Forget Advani or Manmohan Singh or Rahul Gandhi or Narendra Modi. Even if > Lord Krishna, Lord Ram, Prophet Muhammad or Jesus Christ were to stand for > the post of Prime Minister, it would hardly make an effect, simply because > people don't vote for personalities as PM. The major issues before people > are concerned with their livelihood, be it 'roti, kapda and makan', water, > health (this means a good hospital with working people and working > equipments in the village or nearby places), good connection to cities > through roads, education, and in this particular issue, two more issues > were > important: inflation and security. > > So actually, the BJP did have issues to fight with: inflation and > terrorism. > Except that BJP doesn't have a great record in them either. > > As far as inflation is concerned, I can only remind of the 1998 elections > in > Delhi, Rajasthan and Madhya Pradesh, where BJP suffered a 440-KV shock on > losing state elections. And as for terrorism, we all know how they fared. > The Kandahar fiasco, the Parliament attack, the Godhra incident (I mention > this here because the Gujarat BJP unit repeatedly mentioned this as an > ISI-sponsored attack, so they can clarify on this. I mention it as an > intelligence failure), the Akshardham temple attack, the Raghunath temple > attack, the bomb blasts in Mulund and Ghatkopar, and so on. So before > throwing stones at others, the BJP should look at its' own shallow record > with respect to terror in the past. > > And on top of all this, then they have the foolishness in them to say that > L.K. Advani is a strong leader. And to indicate this, they had posters > showing Advani clenching his fists! Great! That way we could have put one > of > the wrestlers who had won a bronze medal for us in Olympics 2008 as the PM > candidate! Nobody could have been stronger than that! > > Strength doesn't come by repeatedly saying that 'I am strong'. A person who > is strong will never say that about himself; it's others who say that about > him. Here we had Advani shooting off his own mouth about how strong he was. > And people knew how to respond. > > Secondly, contrary to your statements Vedavati jee, the BJP hasn't done > that > well as expected. In MP, it was expected to win more than 20 seats. And > Congress was not certainly expecting 10 seats which it won there. As for > Rajasthan, BJP has been wiped out when compared to last election. Only > Chhatisgarh and Gujarat are the states where BJP has done better than > previous times, in addition to Jharkhand of course. > > Thirdly, you are right. BJP should have expanded their base. But base could > have been expanded by throwing away Hindutva (which ironically brings to > them supporters like you but alienates many), and trying to become a > right-centrist party. People would have had no problems if BJP had no trust > on Pakistan, wanted India to become a super-power, and had stated that they > weren't embarassed on their Hindu roots. > > Instead, the BJP just seems hell bent on attacking minorities where and > when > they can (Kandhamal and Karnataka being best examples) and then wants > Muslims and Christians to vote for them! How do they expect a Muslim woman > to vote for them when under their reign, she was raped in the name of 'Jai > Shree Ram' by activists related to the larger parivar to which the BJP > belongs? > > Similarly on the issue of appeasement. It is right that the Congress and > others have practiced Muslim appeasement. But does this mean Muslims should > be punished? When Muslims haven't progressed, then it's the fault of the > Congress. How are they being then 'pampered'? Vote bank politics is > actually > to disadvantage of Muslims, and the BJP should have come to their rescue by > providing them development. Instead, the BJP gave them post-Godhra as gift. > > Fourth. Can Bipin jee inform me (or anybody else for that matter) as to the > proceedings under NDA which point to RTI? I would be glad to know. > > Fifth. Swathi jee, I think you raised two vital points. I agree with you > that it's not the Congress or the Left (do read this Bipin jee, this is for > you too) which brought either the NREGA or the RTI, it's the social > movements which brought them. And I appreciate the courage they showed in > their movement and the pressure they exerted, which was accepted by the > Left > at very late stage, and finally this act was introduced. One must never > forget the kind of pressure exerted by the Times of India-Economic > Times-Ambani-English mainstream media-their elitist friends combine, to > ensure the NREGA never got passed. > > But the larger point also remains that this govt did pass it. Would the NDA > have ever passed it? You know better than me what the answer to that would > be. Therefore, we must accept their small contribution to getting this act > passed and appreciate it, though the first credit to it lies with all those > who fought tooth and nail in the first place to get the act passed. > > And Bipin jee, the NREGA was brought through a social movement. Better go > and find about it rather than cribbing about policies you don't know a > thing > about. And as for your infrastructural development, the people of India > would want NREGA first rather than the Golden Quadrilateral. > > > The second point Swathi jee has raised is about an elected PM. Personally, > I > would have liked Manmohan Singh jee to fight the election and win it. That > would have silenced many people who always look upon him as the 'stooge of > Sonia'. However, unlike others, I wouldn't feel so bad about it. The larger > issue is always the livelihood of people, and while Sonia may not have the > responsibilities of the PM, she has the responsibilities of ensuring her > party wins elections. Therefore, even if the PM doesn't listen, she has to > listen to the voice of India, as she had to in the case of NREGA and RTI. > > Therefore, I don't worry much whether Manmohan is elected or not. I though > have another reason as to why a PM should be elected. > > When a PM like say Vajpayee gets elected and then becomes PM, he knows the > ways and means to win elections. And therefore he equally knows when to > start something, where to stop (why, where and when), where to set agendas > and where to start working upon them. Manmohan I don't think has that > political experience an elected PM have to manage his allies. This is clear > from the way he reacted at different times to the nuclear deal. His > reactions wouldn't have changed so much had he been an elected PM. Perhaps > he could have handled the Left better in that case. > > But again this is only my speculation. It may be true, or it may be false. > > And democracy is not about elections. It is about giving rights to citizens > and ensure that they are indeed actually provided those rights. So an > elected PM or not is not a big issue. > > What is are the rights of people to secure their livelihood. > > If the BJP gains this huge lesson from this election, I would be the most > happy person on this planet. And my frustration at this not happening is > what made me write in a nasty way, for which I am sorry. I would not repeat > that again. > > And if the BJP doesn't learn it, then we need another party to come at > centre to fight against Congress and displace BJP from its pole. > > And finally, the last word from one of my friends who also happens to be a > member of this list: > > The BJP lost because the revenues obtained through growth are spent only to > further growth. The Congress won because it spent partially the revenues > obtained through growth to bring up the poor to above-subsistence level and > contributed in some measure to equitable development in this manner. > > > Regards > > Rakesh > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Sun May 17 00:34:10 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 00:34:10 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Election Forecast In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70905161157x566074e6wea1d5feb85340601@mail.gmail.com> References: <514676.38420.qm@web94715.mail.in2.yahoo.com> <6353c690905161050x3e66e47gc9c2d4cd91d20786@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70905161157x566074e6wea1d5feb85340601@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Advani jee has been shown how strong he was rightfully by the Indian public in entirety. Anyway during the elections too it seemed he was looking for retirement only, so probably his wish got fulfilled. As for the left, nothing is left with the (Indian) Left. From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sun May 17 01:23:43 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 01:23:43 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Dr H. Kumar Kaul - A Living Legend On Yoga Message-ID: <6b79f1a70905161253i6f66737evf0d010bb78d96509@mail.gmail.com> *Dr H. Kumar Kaul - A Living Legend On Yoga* * * *By Kuldeep Raina* Allama Iqbal once told Prem Bhatia, the veteran journalist", Had our ancestors not migrated from Kashmir, Pt. Moti Lal Nehru would have been a district-level pleader and I would have been a district-level poet". Kashmiris have risen to great eminence only when they decided to bid adieu to their homeland. This holds true of Dr. H. Kumar Kaul too. His contributions to the study and practice of Yoga have made him a sort of legend. A dynamic personality, Dr Kaul has distinguished himself as a fine educationist, seasoned administrator and a celebrated Yoga practitioner. Presently, he is Director of Gandhi Arya Sen Secondary School, Barnala ( Punjab). *His only lament is 'my own community does not know me'.* Kashmiri Pandits do not invest in property. They invest in education of their children. Dr Kaul's parents too gave him quality education. Born on 26th July, 1938 at Srinagar, Dr. H.Kumar Kaul had his early education at Kashmir's best school, *Tyndal Biscoe School*. Later, he joined Govt. Amar Singh College. It was here he distinguished himself as the Best Swimmer, Best Debator, Best Sportsman and Best Actor. He was adjudged 'All Round Best'. It was in 1959 that Dr Kaul, a college student then, caught the attention of veteran film actor, Prithvi Raj Kapoor. The doyen of Indian Cinema felt impressed with his role in stage play *“Chattan”.* Dr. Kaul did his M.A. in English literature with distinction and B.Ed. from University of Kashmir. He had his diploma in journalism from Delhi University. He did his Doctorate from Punjabi University, Patiala. His dissertation was *"Contribution of the Deras and Akharas of **Punjab** in Yoga and Sufism".* He was the first scholar in northern India to venture in this particular field. Early sixties were bad times for Kashmiri Pandit community. The policy of communal discrimination in state services made many brilliant Pandit boys leave Kashmir to seek living outside J&K. Dr. H.Kumar Kaul had also to move to Abohar (Punjab) in 1963. He headed Department of English for ten years at DAV College here. He made his mark not only as a gifted teacher but excelled in cultural and literary fields too. Dr. Kaul edited '*The Seemant Jyoti' *for a decade. For a while he assumed Principleship of DAV College, Karnal. 1975 proved to be a challenge for him. SD College, Barnala had fallen out of reputation. Student indiscipline in the proceeding sessions had created a climate of insecurity and uncertainty. Dr. H. Kumar Kaul was asked to head this institution to steer it out of its troubles. His hardwork, tact and visionary ideas helped the institution to regain its reputation. The college once again became an institution of academic excellence. Dr Kaul continued to head this institution till his retirement in 1992, displaying his worth as an academician and administrator. During this period, he was a member of Punjab University Syndicate and Academic Council. After retirement, he has remained associated with the administration of SD Educational Institutions. It is in the field of Yoga, that Dr. H.Kumar Kaul's name is taken with awe and respect. His deep knowledge of the practice of Yoga has made him a legend. Yoga is a way of life to him. He has written more than 220 research papers on Yoga, which have been published in reputed newspapers and magazines in India and abroad. As a practitioner of Yoga, he has authored 8 Text-books, besides 54 books. These have been widely-acclaimed. Inpeccable prose and remarkable communication skills have helped Dr. Kaul to make his message reach wider audience. The great scholar of Yoga has also given practical demonstration of nearly 100 yogasanas in different competitions. He has also given numerous Radio-talks over AIR and BBC on Yoga therapy. The thrust and emphasis of his books is on blending the traditional and modern approachs in Yogic philosophy and science, keeping in view the existing socio-economic milieu. Presently, he is working on *Yoga and Islam, *besides *Contribution of **Punjab** in Hathayoga. *Dr Kaul was introduced to Yoga at the age of 11. He learnt Yoga through its great practitioners - Swami Neelkanth, Swami Laxman and Swami Krishnand, General Secretary of Divine Life Society. As an Indian, he feels proud of its great past and locates Yoga in Hindu Scriptures. In *Ramayana*, he finds *Hanuman* as a true Yogi. who could control his mind and senses by practice and Vairagya (renunciation). Dr. Kaul observes: "*Hanuman *practised *Hathyoga *(Yoga of Hand) and is a living symbol of *Vairagya. *That is why his aim was to attain perfection which he could not attain so much in Rama, but in Rama's *citashakti *i.e. *Sita. Hanuman's *search for *Sita *is nothing but his spiritual quest". About Gita, Dr. Kaul remarks: "All the 18 chapters in the Gita are designated as the types of Yoga...All the eighteen Yogas contained in the 18 chapters may be reduced to four-the Karma Yoga (the Yoga of action), the *raja yoga *(the Yoga of super-consciousness), the *bhakti yoga *(the Yoga of devotion) and the *jnana yoga *(the Yoga of knowledge). Tradition holds that spiritual life begins with Karma Yoga and goes on evolving into the other three respectively". For his great services to Yoga, Dr Kaul has been the recipient of many prestigious awards. He was honoured with the title of *'Yogacharya' *in December, 1986, at the World Yoga Conference in New Delhi. In 1987 he received the title of *'Yoga purush'. *The Vishav Unnayayan Sansad, bestowed upon him the prestigious *'Yoga Ratna' *title in 1988. "*Yoga Shiromani' *was conferred upon him by the Mission International Faridabad in 2001. In 1998, he was selected as Senior Vice-President of the Indian Council for Research on Yoga, and a member of the Governing Council of the World Yoga Parishad. Many Yoga and social organisations deem it their proud privilege to associate him with their bodies to utilise his rich experience. Dr. Kaul was the convener of World Conference on '*Kundalini Yoga Sadhana*', organised in November, 1988 at New Delhi. He has been honoured by many universities. University of Sagar (MP) has made him a life member of All India Yoga Society. Benaras Hindu University appointed him as a member of the All India Yoga Academy. In 1987 he served as National Minister of Spiritual and Yoga affairs. He is also a Trustee of Chander Prakash Mehra International Centre for the study of Tantra, Yoga and Conservation of Cultural Property, New Delhi. In 1999 at an International *Yoga Conference* in Rajasthan, he was adjudged as the best speaker and honoured. His book 'Yoga for Health' received National Book Award in 1989 from Laxmi Bai College of Physical Education, Gwalior. Dr. Kaul serves as an editorial advisor to 'Yoga Thara', a bio-monthly journal being published from Secundarbad. Besides this he is Founder-President of Yoga Institute, Chowgam; Founder-Director of Kundalini Yoga Research Centre; Member All India Yoga Association, Delhi; Chairman (Yoga) Mission International, Faridabad; Founder-President of Swami Vrijanand Yoga Sadhna Kendra, Barnala. He has also written 14 one Act plays in English and Urdu. Dr Kaul is a contributor to 14 volume *'Encyclopaedia of Sikhism', *published by Punjabi University, Patiala. He has interpreted the meaning of Yoga in this. Dr. Kaul has also deep commitment to society and takes up the lost causes. He is Founder-President of the Punjab Welfare Association of the Blind and convened All India Conference for the Blind in 1981. He has been actively associated with campaigns, aimed at eradicating drug addiction and other social evils. Dr. Kaul inspires others to take up the social workt END *The writer is Gen. Secretary Panun Kashmir *Books* By Dr. H.Kumar Kaul 1. Aaradhna. 2. Cosmic Consciousness. 3. Yoga for Health. 4. Pranayama for Health. 5. Aspects of Yoga. 6. Perrenial Paths of Yoga. 7. Yogasanas for Everyone. 8. Yoga and Physical Education. 9. Yoga in Punjab. 10. Instant Yoga for Businessmen. 11. The Secret Doctrine of Yoga. 12. Yoga and World Peace. 13. Yoga in Hindu Scriptures. 14. National Integration through Yoga. 15. Yoga For Common Diseases. 16. Yoga and Drug-Addiction. 17. Yoga and Heart Diseases. 18. Yoga and Diabetes. 19. Yoga and Asthma. 20. Yoga and Backaches. 21. Yoga and Arthritis. 22. Yoga and Skin Diseases. 23. Yoga and Hypertension. 24. Yoga and Obesity. 25. Yoga and Headaches. 26. Yoga and Alpecia (Baldness). 27. Yoga and Constipation. 28. Yoga and Stress. 29. Yoga and Depression. 30. Yoga and Menopause. 31. Yoga and Impotency. 32. Yoga and Personality Disorders. 33. Yoga and Stomach Diseases. 34. Yoga and ENT Diseases. 35. Yoga and Amnesia (loss of Memory). 36. Yoga and HIV/AIDS. 37. Yoga and Healthy Aging. 38. Meditation - Theory and Practice. 39. Yoga - Theory and Practice. 40. The Healing Powers of Pranyama. 41. Yoga in Hindu Scriptures Source: Kashmir Sentinel From indersalim at gmail.com Sun May 17 01:24:01 2009 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 01:24:01 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Election Forecast In-Reply-To: References: <514676.38420.qm@web94715.mail.in2.yahoo.com> <6353c690905161050x3e66e47gc9c2d4cd91d20786@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70905161157x566074e6wea1d5feb85340601@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70905161254le07d36do19b710338736ba36@mail.gmail.com> imagine, if there is a rerun of the entire election process tomorrow, how much the results will alter? imagine, how much of myth is weaved in the results, what looks very authentic imagine, how much the number game to form the govt. will be different from what we have right now. On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 12:34 AM, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > Advani jee has been shown how strong he was rightfully by the Indian public > in entirety. Anyway during the elections too it seemed he was looking for > retirement only, so probably his wish got fulfilled. > > As for the left, nothing is left with the (Indian) Left. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sun May 17 01:24:48 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 01:24:48 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] More on Majboor Message-ID: <6b79f1a70905161254o1b40a744n7f54488cd7b05bdf@mail.gmail.com> Dina Nath Nadim With the passing of away of Nadim, an era in Kashmiri Language came to an end. He gave a new form to Kashmiri poetry. Always bristling with energy, a magician in the usage of words in colloquial Kashmiri, Nadim was foremost a symbol of Kashmiriness and a lover of peace and humanity. Nadim had a magnetic personality-tall frame, his prominent eyes gave a feeling that he wanted to convey something. He usual wore Achkan with just three buttons, a pant and worn-out shoes. He didn't use *pheeran* at home. The great poet came from a poor family, which resided in Sheshiyar locality of Habbakadal. Nadim was a family man. I remember how he helped his wife by preparing vegetables, kniving these geometrically. He was totally convinced by ideals of scientific socialism as propounded by Marx, Engels and others. Nadim became the torch-bearer of the progressive literary movement in Kashmir. He made two ends meet by working as a teacher in Hindu High School and supplementing the income by taking up tuitions. During Sadiq regime, he was taken as MLC (Teachers' Constituency) and Assistant Director, Social Education. Nadim's poetic style was fresh like the water of a mountain spring. It was forceful, bubbling with new ideas, aimed to better lot of Kashmiris and promote peace. My first encounter with the great poet took place many decades ago at Habbakadal Chowk near the shop of famous book-seller, *Ali Mohd. & Sons*. The proprietor Ali Mohammad gave due respect to poets and literary persons. He would sell even old books to us. I had gone to the bookshop to buy Emile Ludwig's 'Goethe'. It sold for a rupee or so then. Nadim invited me to join the literary meetings of Cultural Congress, which used to be held at Exhibition Grounds. I accepted the offer gladly and immersed myself whole heartedly in the activities of Cultural Congress. From 1947 to 1954 I used to attend weekly meetings and the big public functions at Kralpora, Khan Sahib, Soibug, Lasjan, Kulgam, Zainapora and "Bazam-e-Kwong Posh" in various mohallas of Srinagar without fail. I also remained Sub-Editor of 'Kwong-Posh', the organ of Cultural Congress. I had an association with Nadim for over 25 years. He had some shortcomings too, but then who is free from these. I used to meet him in the days of cultural movement once a week at his home. At times when I knocked at their door, his wife would come out and say Nadim Sahib was not there. I would feel dejected. Perhaps, it was conveyed to avoid me. This was not so always, as the meetings were fixed at different places. He wrote me a letter from China, where he had gone to attend a Peace Conference with Indian delegation. END *Majboor on His Translator* Arvind Gigoo doesn't like to put Professor as Prefix to his name. I think he is right. Gigoo is a scholar, endowed with great humility. It was VK Zutshi who introduced me to Gigoo at Udhampur, where we all were living as exiles. After the first meeting, we began meeting too frequently. This company was further enlivened by the participation of Messers ML Goja and PK Goja. Gigoo Sahab has translated thirty of my poems from Kashmiri into English. The translations were well received by leading writers of India. It was he who introduced me to a big audience and great writers through his crisp and creative translation. These poems were brought out in an anthology - "*Waves *", which received 22 reviews. The reviews were later published in a book form. Arvind Gigoo is a forthright person. He doesn't like to keep secrets to himself. His book *'Ugly face of Kashmiri', *has been written in a style that is unique. It has introduced a new genre in literature. The book demythifies Kashmiris of all shades, presenting them as they are. Gigoo has penchant to give surprises. Till the book was out none of his close friends knew he had written the book. Gigoo when at home looks lazy, who spends most of the time sleeping. But when he decides to work he is a dynamo of energy, a giant and all excellence. He is liberal, dislikes to own hackneyed old ideologies. Gigoo has his own philosopy of life. NOV 2006 *A Short Story Writer Is Born *** Title: Rambiara bhthees' piyath Author: Makhan Lal Pandita Language: Kashmiri (Nastaliq) Price: Rs 250/- Published By: M.L. Pandita 180, Sector-1, Lane No: 4, Durga Nagar, PO Roopnagar, Jammu *By Arjun Dev Majboor* Makhan Lal Pandita's emergence as a serious short story writer is a good augury for Kashmiri literature. *Raembara bhthees piyath, *the book under review, is author's 3rd collection of short stories, his earlier books *'Girdab' *(Whirlpool, 2003) and Karan Fiyur (Change of Times, 2000) were well received. With his new publication, the author has made his mark as a competent short story writer. The book is decorated with a beautiful jacket and carries 12 stories. The stories are: 1) *Dayi Pos *(Guest without formal invitation) 2) *Bata Thal *(Rice Plate) 3) *Gardish *(Round) 4) *Nov Bistar *(New Bedding) 5) *Roshan Laleen Kitab *(Roshan Lal's Book) 6) *Yeli Gauri Malyun Gayi *(When Gauri went to her parents' house) 7) *Babu Ram* 8) *Machhar *(Madness) 9) *Vuh Ropiya *(Twenty Rupees) 10) *Toht Taf *(Hot Sun Shine) 11) *Hawas *(Strong Desire) 12) *Raembara bhthees piyath *(on the bank of Rambiara) The author has himself written the Preface, while Sh. Mohd. Yusuf Teng has penned the Foreword. Mr. Teng has praised author's style, the theme of the stories, his vocabulary and appropriate usage of metaphors and similes. He has commented, "Probably no other Bata (Kashmiri Pandit) in future would be able to rival the author's use of colloquial Kashmiri". What strikes the reader in the book is that the author while adopting the style of narrating the story has tried to present his characters in their own milieu-the characters speak their own language and seem real and full of life. The stories keep the reader's interest sustained so much so that he gets lost in an environment which is every inch Kashmiri. The theme of the stories revolves round people who are plebians, some of the themes relate to displacement and exile as well. *Nov Bistar *(New Bedding), Roshan Laleen Kitab (Roshan Lal's book) and *Toht Taf *(Hot Sunshine) portray plight and struggle-ridden life of Displaced Kashmiris. In Nov Bistar the stories pertain to a rural Displaced Kashmiri Pandit family. This family had got prepared back home in Kashmir a new bedding. It is a painful account of the family which carries this new bedding to Jammu. Each quilt carries seven kgs. of cotton. It gets soiled in monsoon rains, while the family awaits registration at temple premises in Jammu. Finally, the soiled quilts are consigned to the river Tawi, as there is no need for these in the hostile tropical climate. In *'Roshan Laleen Kitab', *the author utilises his meagre savings to get his book published in Jammu. To his dismay nobody bothers to read his book. So much so, even his close friend to whom he had gifted a complimentary copy, does not bother to go through it. He just puts it on a shelf. It causes heartache to Roshan Lal when he sees that the groundnuts (Moongfali) he purchases, is served in an envelope made from the pages of his own book. *'Toht Taf' *is a story in which a Displaced Kashmiri is sent back by *'Dharam Raz' *(one who decides heaven and hell) to bear the tropical heat. Snakes and Scorpion make the life more painful for this weather-bitten refugee. But for a person who has lived in the cool breeze of Chinar there are no other options. In *'Raembiara bhthees piyath', *the author probably tells his own story. A scene is portrayed in which a beautiful Gujjar lass, stricken by poverty, gets drowned in a river. The story pictures life in Shopian town and delineates beautifully its natural scenery and suffocating life in the forest hinterland. This story, written artistically and with candour, tells us much more. The story '*Machhar *(Madness) is focussed on terrorism. How a brother kills his own brother, in this story, is heart-rending. It also raises many questions. Yeli Gauri Malyun Gayi (when Gauri went to her parents house), projects the life of a Kashmiri Pandit peasant family, which is steeped in poverty. The helplessness, the rigors and the difficulties of the peasant life and the sorrows have been vividly portrayed. This painful story is prelude to the displacement. *Vuh Ropiya *(Twenty Rupees) is a story which revolves round a Kashmiri Pandit peasant and a poor shepherd (chopan). It focusses on the social hypocrisy, in which the shepherd trots out different excuses at different times and feigns illness and head injury to avoid paying back Rs 20/- he had borrowed from a Kashmiri Pandit. It also introduces comic scenes at the end. The stories are written in a lucid language and appropriate to characters. These are full of metaphors and satire. The dramatic style in which the stories are presented keep the reader glued. Usage of appropriate words and the short sentences have enhanced the readability and in flow it resembles Vitasta in its pristine beauty and quietitude. The author does not allow his emotions, so pregnant in the situations he describes, to take over while narrating the stories. The theme has been presented in a sublime way. So far, Kashmiri writers have not portrayed rural life so vividly as has been done by Shri Makhan Lal Pandita. This is the key to his success. The book has been marred by few mistakes in proof-reading and script transcription. This could handicap a reader not well-versed with nastaliq Kashmiri script. These few mistakes apart, one can say with certainty that a new short story writer has found his rightful place in the field of Kashmiri literature. Kudos to Sh. Makhan Lal Pandita. *(Translated from original Hindi by Dr. R.K. Tamiri) Source: Kashmir Sentinel __._,_.___ From indersalim at gmail.com Sun May 17 01:37:34 2009 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 01:37:34 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Election Forecast In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70905161157x566074e6wea1d5feb85340601@mail.gmail.com> References: <514676.38420.qm@web94715.mail.in2.yahoo.com> <6353c690905161050x3e66e47gc9c2d4cd91d20786@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70905161157x566074e6wea1d5feb85340601@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70905161307ob789c4fuc509a4f873d92af9@mail.gmail.com> better than gratuity, ADvani ji might promote Nano car of Tata Ji and some advertise NAVRATTAN OIL, i am sure he will outwit AmitabBachan on that and earn more bucks, to enjoy trout fish with red wine in Manali with VajPAYEE Ji On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 12:27 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Great show by Congress ..... > > However the best thing about this election was the worst performance of Left > in last 40 years. > > Advani Ji now needs a peaceful retirement and perhaps may be rewarded with > Gratuity and other benefits..... > > Pawan > > > > On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 12:11 AM, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > >> Dear all >> >> I had gone out, so apologies (if required) for the delay. >> >> Unlike Anupam jee, I don't have problems with people changing their views >> provided they stick to it. So I won't comment on that. >> >> What I will comment on are some interesting thoughts. First of all, India >> has a parliamentary system where people choose their representatives on the >> first by post principle, and there are a number of factors at play. What is >> certainly not a factor (neither in 2004 nor in 2009 as CSDS surveys done by >> Yogendra Yadav repeatedly indicate) is the issue of the Prime Minister. >> >> Forget Advani or Manmohan Singh or Rahul Gandhi or Narendra Modi. Even if >> Lord Krishna, Lord Ram, Prophet Muhammad or Jesus Christ were to stand for >> the post of Prime Minister, it would hardly make an effect, simply because >> people don't vote for personalities as PM. The major issues before people >> are concerned with their livelihood, be it 'roti, kapda and makan', water, >> health (this means a good hospital with working people and working >> equipments in the village or nearby places), good connection to cities >> through roads, education, and in this particular issue, two more issues >> were >> important: inflation and security. >> >> So actually, the BJP did have issues to fight with: inflation and >> terrorism. >> Except that BJP doesn't have a great record in them either. >> >> As far as inflation is concerned, I can only remind of the 1998 elections >> in >> Delhi, Rajasthan and Madhya Pradesh, where BJP suffered a 440-KV shock on >> losing state elections. And as for terrorism, we all know how they fared. >> The Kandahar fiasco, the Parliament attack, the Godhra incident (I mention >> this here because the Gujarat BJP unit repeatedly mentioned this as an >> ISI-sponsored attack, so they can clarify on this. I mention it as an >> intelligence failure), the Akshardham temple attack, the Raghunath temple >> attack, the bomb blasts in Mulund and Ghatkopar, and so on. So before >> throwing stones at others, the BJP should look at its' own shallow record >> with respect to terror in the past. >> >> And on top of all this, then they have the foolishness in them to say that >> L.K. Advani is a strong leader. And to indicate this, they had posters >> showing Advani clenching his fists! Great! That way we could have put one >> of >> the wrestlers who had won a bronze medal for us in Olympics 2008 as the PM >> candidate! Nobody could have been stronger than that! >> >> Strength doesn't come by repeatedly saying that 'I am strong'. A person who >> is strong will never say that about himself; it's others who say that about >> him. Here we had Advani shooting off his own mouth about how strong he was. >> And people knew how to respond. >> >> Secondly, contrary to your statements Vedavati jee, the BJP hasn't done >> that >> well as expected. In MP, it was expected to win more than 20 seats. And >> Congress was not certainly expecting 10 seats which it won there. As for >> Rajasthan, BJP has been wiped out when compared to last election. Only >> Chhatisgarh and Gujarat are the states where BJP has done better than >> previous times, in addition to Jharkhand of course. >> >> Thirdly, you are right. BJP should have expanded their base. But base could >> have been expanded by throwing away Hindutva (which ironically brings to >> them supporters like you but alienates many), and trying to become a >> right-centrist party. People would have had no problems if BJP had no trust >> on Pakistan, wanted India to become a super-power, and had stated that they >> weren't embarassed on their Hindu roots. >> >> Instead, the BJP just seems hell bent on attacking minorities where and >> when >> they can (Kandhamal and Karnataka being best examples) and then wants >> Muslims and Christians to vote for them! How do they expect a Muslim woman >> to vote for them when under their reign, she was raped in the name of 'Jai >> Shree Ram' by activists related to the larger parivar to which the BJP >> belongs? >> >> Similarly on the issue of appeasement. It is right that the Congress and >> others have practiced Muslim appeasement. But does this mean Muslims should >> be punished? When Muslims haven't progressed, then it's the fault of the >> Congress. How are they being then 'pampered'? Vote bank politics is >> actually >> to disadvantage of Muslims, and the BJP should have come to their rescue by >> providing them development. Instead, the BJP gave them post-Godhra as gift. >> >> Fourth. Can Bipin jee inform me (or anybody else for that matter) as to the >> proceedings under NDA which point to RTI? I would be glad to know. >> >> Fifth. Swathi jee, I think you raised two vital points. I agree with you >> that it's not the Congress or the Left (do read this Bipin jee, this is for >> you too) which brought either the NREGA or the RTI, it's the social >> movements which brought them. And I appreciate the courage they showed in >> their movement and the pressure they exerted, which was accepted by the >> Left >> at very late stage, and finally this act was introduced. One must never >> forget the kind of pressure exerted by the Times of India-Economic >> Times-Ambani-English mainstream media-their elitist friends combine, to >> ensure the NREGA never got passed. >> >> But the larger point also remains that this govt did pass it. Would the NDA >> have ever passed it? You know better than me what the answer to that would >> be. Therefore, we must accept their small contribution to getting this act >> passed and appreciate it, though the first credit to it lies with all those >> who fought tooth and nail in the first place to get the act passed. >> >> And Bipin jee, the NREGA was brought through a social movement. Better go >> and find about it rather than cribbing about policies you don't know a >> thing >> about. And as for your infrastructural development, the people of India >> would want NREGA first rather than the Golden Quadrilateral. >> >> >> The second point Swathi jee has raised is about an elected PM. Personally, >> I >> would have liked Manmohan Singh jee to fight the election and win it. That >> would have silenced many people who always look upon him as the 'stooge of >> Sonia'. However, unlike others, I wouldn't feel so bad about it. The larger >> issue is always the livelihood of people, and while Sonia may not have the >> responsibilities of the PM, she has the responsibilities of ensuring her >> party wins elections. Therefore, even if the PM doesn't listen, she has to >> listen to the voice of India, as she had to in the case of NREGA and RTI. >> >> Therefore, I don't worry much whether Manmohan is elected or not. I though >> have another reason as to why a PM should be elected. >> >> When a PM like say Vajpayee gets elected and then becomes PM, he knows the >> ways and means to win elections. And therefore he equally knows when to >> start something, where to stop (why, where and when), where to set agendas >> and where to start working upon them. Manmohan I don't think has that >> political experience an elected PM have to manage his allies. This is clear >> from the way he reacted at different times to the nuclear deal. His >> reactions wouldn't have changed so much had he been an elected PM. Perhaps >> he could have handled the Left better in that case. >> >> But again this is only my speculation. It may be true, or it may be false. >> >> And democracy is not about elections. It is about giving rights to citizens >> and ensure that they are indeed actually provided those rights. So an >> elected PM or not is not a big issue. >> >> What is are the rights of people to secure their livelihood. >> >> If the BJP gains this huge lesson from this election, I would be the most >> happy person on this planet. And my frustration at this not happening is >> what made me write in a nasty way, for which I am sorry. I would not repeat >> that again. >> >> And if the BJP doesn't learn it, then we need another party to come at >> centre to fight against Congress and displace BJP from its pole. >> >> And finally, the last word from one of my friends who also happens to be a >> member of this list: >> >> The BJP lost because the revenues obtained through growth are spent only to >> further growth. The Congress won because it spent partially the revenues >> obtained through growth to bring up the poor to above-subsistence level and >> contributed in some measure to equitable development in this manner. >> >> >> Regards >> >> Rakesh >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>  List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sun May 17 01:45:13 2009 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 01:45:13 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Election Forecast In-Reply-To: <47e122a70905161307ob789c4fuc509a4f873d92af9@mail.gmail.com> References: <514676.38420.qm@web94715.mail.in2.yahoo.com> <6353c690905161050x3e66e47gc9c2d4cd91d20786@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70905161157x566074e6wea1d5feb85340601@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70905161307ob789c4fuc509a4f873d92af9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690905161315q2dd709bapf02aad1a5d6f21e6@mail.gmail.com> seems Inder Salim has been working in a navratan oil company and tired of the left trade union :P How else would he have so much information about Advaniji ? Don't worry Inder Sali, you will have your job; Modi is there still to take care of you. Manali is a far dream still for you. On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 1:37 AM, Inder Salim wrote: > better than gratuity, ADvani ji might promote Nano car of Tata Ji > > and some advertise NAVRATTAN OIL, > > i am sure he will outwit AmitabBachan on that > > and earn more bucks, to enjoy trout fish with red wine in Manali with > VajPAYEE Ji > > > > > > On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 12:27 AM, Pawan Durani > wrote: > > Great show by Congress ..... > > > > However the best thing about this election was the worst performance of > Left > > in last 40 years. > > > > Advani Ji now needs a peaceful retirement and perhaps may be rewarded > with > > Gratuity and other benefits..... > > > > Pawan > > > > > > > > On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 12:11 AM, Rakesh Iyer >wrote: > > > >> Dear all > >> > >> I had gone out, so apologies (if required) for the delay. > >> > >> Unlike Anupam jee, I don't have problems with people changing their > views > >> provided they stick to it. So I won't comment on that. > >> > >> What I will comment on are some interesting thoughts. First of all, > India > >> has a parliamentary system where people choose their representatives on > the > >> first by post principle, and there are a number of factors at play. What > is > >> certainly not a factor (neither in 2004 nor in 2009 as CSDS surveys done > by > >> Yogendra Yadav repeatedly indicate) is the issue of the Prime Minister. > >> > >> Forget Advani or Manmohan Singh or Rahul Gandhi or Narendra Modi. Even > if > >> Lord Krishna, Lord Ram, Prophet Muhammad or Jesus Christ were to stand > for > >> the post of Prime Minister, it would hardly make an effect, simply > because > >> people don't vote for personalities as PM. The major issues before > people > >> are concerned with their livelihood, be it 'roti, kapda and makan', > water, > >> health (this means a good hospital with working people and working > >> equipments in the village or nearby places), good connection to cities > >> through roads, education, and in this particular issue, two more issues > >> were > >> important: inflation and security. > >> > >> So actually, the BJP did have issues to fight with: inflation and > >> terrorism. > >> Except that BJP doesn't have a great record in them either. > >> > >> As far as inflation is concerned, I can only remind of the 1998 > elections > >> in > >> Delhi, Rajasthan and Madhya Pradesh, where BJP suffered a 440-KV shock > on > >> losing state elections. And as for terrorism, we all know how they > fared. > >> The Kandahar fiasco, the Parliament attack, the Godhra incident (I > mention > >> this here because the Gujarat BJP unit repeatedly mentioned this as an > >> ISI-sponsored attack, so they can clarify on this. I mention it as an > >> intelligence failure), the Akshardham temple attack, the Raghunath > temple > >> attack, the bomb blasts in Mulund and Ghatkopar, and so on. So before > >> throwing stones at others, the BJP should look at its' own shallow > record > >> with respect to terror in the past. > >> > >> And on top of all this, then they have the foolishness in them to say > that > >> L.K. Advani is a strong leader. And to indicate this, they had posters > >> showing Advani clenching his fists! Great! That way we could have put > one > >> of > >> the wrestlers who had won a bronze medal for us in Olympics 2008 as the > PM > >> candidate! Nobody could have been stronger than that! > >> > >> Strength doesn't come by repeatedly saying that 'I am strong'. A person > who > >> is strong will never say that about himself; it's others who say that > about > >> him. Here we had Advani shooting off his own mouth about how strong he > was. > >> And people knew how to respond. > >> > >> Secondly, contrary to your statements Vedavati jee, the BJP hasn't done > >> that > >> well as expected. In MP, it was expected to win more than 20 seats. And > >> Congress was not certainly expecting 10 seats which it won there. As for > >> Rajasthan, BJP has been wiped out when compared to last election. Only > >> Chhatisgarh and Gujarat are the states where BJP has done better than > >> previous times, in addition to Jharkhand of course. > >> > >> Thirdly, you are right. BJP should have expanded their base. But base > could > >> have been expanded by throwing away Hindutva (which ironically brings to > >> them supporters like you but alienates many), and trying to become a > >> right-centrist party. People would have had no problems if BJP had no > trust > >> on Pakistan, wanted India to become a super-power, and had stated that > they > >> weren't embarassed on their Hindu roots. > >> > >> Instead, the BJP just seems hell bent on attacking minorities where and > >> when > >> they can (Kandhamal and Karnataka being best examples) and then wants > >> Muslims and Christians to vote for them! How do they expect a Muslim > woman > >> to vote for them when under their reign, she was raped in the name of > 'Jai > >> Shree Ram' by activists related to the larger parivar to which the BJP > >> belongs? > >> > >> Similarly on the issue of appeasement. It is right that the Congress and > >> others have practiced Muslim appeasement. But does this mean Muslims > should > >> be punished? When Muslims haven't progressed, then it's the fault of the > >> Congress. How are they being then 'pampered'? Vote bank politics is > >> actually > >> to disadvantage of Muslims, and the BJP should have come to their rescue > by > >> providing them development. Instead, the BJP gave them post-Godhra as > gift. > >> > >> Fourth. Can Bipin jee inform me (or anybody else for that matter) as to > the > >> proceedings under NDA which point to RTI? I would be glad to know. > >> > >> Fifth. Swathi jee, I think you raised two vital points. I agree with you > >> that it's not the Congress or the Left (do read this Bipin jee, this is > for > >> you too) which brought either the NREGA or the RTI, it's the social > >> movements which brought them. And I appreciate the courage they showed > in > >> their movement and the pressure they exerted, which was accepted by the > >> Left > >> at very late stage, and finally this act was introduced. One must never > >> forget the kind of pressure exerted by the Times of India-Economic > >> Times-Ambani-English mainstream media-their elitist friends combine, to > >> ensure the NREGA never got passed. > >> > >> But the larger point also remains that this govt did pass it. Would the > NDA > >> have ever passed it? You know better than me what the answer to that > would > >> be. Therefore, we must accept their small contribution to getting this > act > >> passed and appreciate it, though the first credit to it lies with all > those > >> who fought tooth and nail in the first place to get the act passed. > >> > >> And Bipin jee, the NREGA was brought through a social movement. Better > go > >> and find about it rather than cribbing about policies you don't know a > >> thing > >> about. And as for your infrastructural development, the people of India > >> would want NREGA first rather than the Golden Quadrilateral. > >> > >> > >> The second point Swathi jee has raised is about an elected PM. > Personally, > >> I > >> would have liked Manmohan Singh jee to fight the election and win it. > That > >> would have silenced many people who always look upon him as the 'stooge > of > >> Sonia'. However, unlike others, I wouldn't feel so bad about it. The > larger > >> issue is always the livelihood of people, and while Sonia may not have > the > >> responsibilities of the PM, she has the responsibilities of ensuring her > >> party wins elections. Therefore, even if the PM doesn't listen, she has > to > >> listen to the voice of India, as she had to in the case of NREGA and > RTI. > >> > >> Therefore, I don't worry much whether Manmohan is elected or not. I > though > >> have another reason as to why a PM should be elected. > >> > >> When a PM like say Vajpayee gets elected and then becomes PM, he knows > the > >> ways and means to win elections. And therefore he equally knows when to > >> start something, where to stop (why, where and when), where to set > agendas > >> and where to start working upon them. Manmohan I don't think has that > >> political experience an elected PM have to manage his allies. This is > clear > >> from the way he reacted at different times to the nuclear deal. His > >> reactions wouldn't have changed so much had he been an elected PM. > Perhaps > >> he could have handled the Left better in that case. > >> > >> But again this is only my speculation. It may be true, or it may be > false. > >> > >> And democracy is not about elections. It is about giving rights to > citizens > >> and ensure that they are indeed actually provided those rights. So an > >> elected PM or not is not a big issue. > >> > >> What is are the rights of people to secure their livelihood. > >> > >> If the BJP gains this huge lesson from this election, I would be the > most > >> happy person on this planet. And my frustration at this not happening is > >> what made me write in a nasty way, for which I am sorry. I would not > repeat > >> that again. > >> > >> And if the BJP doesn't learn it, then we need another party to come at > >> centre to fight against Congress and displace BJP from its pole. > >> > >> And finally, the last word from one of my friends who also happens to be > a > >> member of this list: > >> > >> The BJP lost because the revenues obtained through growth are spent only > to > >> further growth. The Congress won because it spent partially the revenues > >> obtained through growth to bring up the poor to above-subsistence level > and > >> contributed in some measure to equitable development in this manner. > >> > >> > >> Regards > >> > >> Rakesh > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- Aditya Raj Kaul From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Sun May 17 01:49:19 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 01:49:19 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Election Forecast In-Reply-To: <47e122a70905161307ob789c4fuc509a4f873d92af9@mail.gmail.com> References: <514676.38420.qm@web94715.mail.in2.yahoo.com> <6353c690905161050x3e66e47gc9c2d4cd91d20786@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70905161157x566074e6wea1d5feb85340601@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70905161307ob789c4fuc509a4f873d92af9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Is drinking wine and eating fish allowed in the RSS pracharak menu? After all, the parivar sometimes also cribs about non-vegetarians in Hinduism. Or can exceptions be made? Waise Advani jee always runs away when challenged to face the battle. His occasions of cringing in despair: when Babri Masjid was demolished, when post-Godhra was happening, when he lost power in 2004, this time when his party can't form the govt again in 2009, Jinnah controversy....... What he needs is some shock treatment to forget his past and start life afresh... Oh yes...Modi....how can we forget him. His problem is that he always thinks India is a part of Gujarat (in terms of demographic constitution) rather than the vice-versa......can he overcome that to begin with? And unlike Gujarati society (or a section of Gujarati society), other societies are not worried about their masculinity that they have to portray it again and again........ From ayishaa at gmail.com Sun May 17 11:32:39 2009 From: ayishaa at gmail.com (Ayisha Abraham) Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 11:32:39 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Center for Experimental Media Arts (CEMA) call for applications In-Reply-To: <76EBBD36-524D-45D6-93F5-40C272EBAAFB@srishti.ac.in> References: <76EBBD36-524D-45D6-93F5-40C272EBAAFB@srishti.ac.in> Message-ID: <7357da570905162302h4a2f32dbj3de8bf5681738e3d@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Gabriel Harp Date: Sat, May 16, 2009 at 9:21 PM Subject: [Reader-list] Center for Experimental Media Arts (CEMA) call for applications To: sarai The Center for Experimental Media Arts (CEMA) at the Srishti School of Art Design & Technology (Bangalore, India) seeks artists, hackers, writers, engineers and scientists of all social and physical variations to enroll in the advanced diploma in Experimental Media Arts.  Students will join the CEMA lab for 2.5 years and work with artists in residence and Srishti faculty on collaborative and individualized transdisplinary research. The theme for the upcoming semester is PUBLIC MEDIA. Previous semester themes have ranged from space arts, biological arts, cybernetics, and envirocasting. Applications are accepted on a rolling basis until the beginning of the semester. The fall semester begins in Bangalore, on August 3rd. For more information about the lab and the advanced diploma visit: http://cema.srishti.ac.in/ Prospective students can find out how to apply here: http:// cema.srishti.ac.in/content/admissions Questions should be directed to gabriel at srishti.ac.in FAQ for APPLICANTS: ENTRY REQUIREMENTS Q: What kind of undergraduate (UG) degree do I need? Students who have completed a degree in the Arts, Architecture, Science, Engineering, Humanities, Law, Social Sciences or Business are eligible for entry. If the candidate has not completed a UG, 2-4 years of professional experience may be considered as an equivalent to UG. All others are considered on a case by case basis. There is no age requirement for entry into the program. The requirements for applying to the program are: 1. an application form with personal statement 2. A portfolio of work and / or writings. Appropriate candidates will be invited for a personal interview. Q: What type of students do you accept? Successful candidates for the Advanced Diploma in Experimental Media Arts will have a variety of interests and accomplishments. We do not expect all candidates to have formal training in the visual or media arts, but candidates should express an interest in creatively engaging topics using experimental media arts as a medium of investigation. In the past students have arrived at the lab and begun work in areas such as Physical Computing, Bio-Arts, Participatory Design, and Tactical Media. Successful candidates demonstrate combinations of curiosity, self-direction, open-mindedness and maturity. Q: What should be in my portfolio? Candidates for entry into the CEMA advanced diploma may have a variety of achievements in art and non-art background. Although not all candidates will have a proper visual art portfolio we require a portfolio of work or accomplishments. This portfolio may include anything from published scientific papers to poetry, blogs or documentation of political activism. We know that candidates have a variety of interests and backgrounds and the portfolio is an opportunity to share those with the selection committee. Q: Are international students allowed to apply? Yes. Srishti is an international institution. All course work at Srishti is conducted in English. We have many students, faculty and visitors from around the world. If you are not from India and have questions about studying and living in India please contact us by email and we will be happy to answer your questions. THE ADVANCED DIPLOMA PROGRAM Q: What will I learn at the lab? It is expected that students in the Advanced Diploma in Experimental Media Art will: produce creative work | bring their work to the world through exhibition and distribution | develop collaborative strategies for a variety of situations | increase their global network of individuals and organizations through internships and participation in e- communities | engage with local organizations and communities in and around Bangalore | engage in critical reflection of their work and the work of their peers | articulate verbally and in text the social, political, and technological implications of their creative work | develop an ethical framework for their creative work Q: How much does the program cost? The program fees are 125,000 rp. a year. [US$ 3,150] [Euro: 2,170] Q: Where is the lab located? The CEMA lab is a part of the Srishti School of Art, Design and Technology located in Bangalore, India.The School is in the Yelehanka (New Town) neighborhood, very close to the new International Airport. The 2.5 year program is an in-residence program, although there are opportunities for travel to conferences in India and internationally, and it is expected that students take international internships or shows during the summer break. Centre for Experimental Media Arts [Bangalore, India] http://cema.srishti.ac.in/ _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Ayisha Abraham 002 Serena # 2 Lloyd Road Cooke Town Bangalore 560005 tele: 91-80-25464058 From santhosh.kanipayur at gmail.com Sun May 17 12:29:04 2009 From: santhosh.kanipayur at gmail.com (Santhosh Kumar) Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 12:29:04 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Election Forecast In-Reply-To: <6353c690905161315q2dd709bapf02aad1a5d6f21e6@mail.gmail.com> References: <514676.38420.qm@web94715.mail.in2.yahoo.com> <6353c690905161050x3e66e47gc9c2d4cd91d20786@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70905161157x566074e6wea1d5feb85340601@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70905161307ob789c4fuc509a4f873d92af9@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690905161315q2dd709bapf02aad1a5d6f21e6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <19d498870905162359l63570816gacfdc68e2a4ba9@mail.gmail.com> Thank Sree Ram, BJP didn't come to power, otherwise Aditya Raj Kaul Ji would have come personally with a sword or trishul to deal with with people like Inder Salim Ji and other non Sangh parivar people in this list On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 1:45 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > seems Inder Salim has been working in a navratan oil company and tired of > the left trade union :P How else would he have so much information about > Advaniji ? > > Don't worry Inder Sali, you will have your job; Modi is there still to take > care of you. > > Manali is a far dream still for you. > > On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 1:37 AM, Inder Salim wrote: > > > better than gratuity, ADvani ji might promote Nano car of Tata Ji > > > > and some advertise NAVRATTAN OIL, > > > > i am sure he will outwit AmitabBachan on that > > > > and earn more bucks, to enjoy trout fish with red wine in Manali with > > VajPAYEE Ji > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 12:27 AM, Pawan Durani > > wrote: > > > Great show by Congress ..... > > > > > > However the best thing about this election was the worst performance of > > Left > > > in last 40 years. > > > > > > Advani Ji now needs a peaceful retirement and perhaps may be rewarded > > with > > > Gratuity and other benefits..... > > > > > > Pawan > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 12:11 AM, Rakesh Iyer > >wrote: > > > > > >> Dear all > > >> > > >> I had gone out, so apologies (if required) for the delay. > > >> > > >> Unlike Anupam jee, I don't have problems with people changing their > > views > > >> provided they stick to it. So I won't comment on that. > > >> > > >> What I will comment on are some interesting thoughts. First of all, > > India > > >> has a parliamentary system where people choose their representatives > on > > the > > >> first by post principle, and there are a number of factors at play. > What > > is > > >> certainly not a factor (neither in 2004 nor in 2009 as CSDS surveys > done > > by > > >> Yogendra Yadav repeatedly indicate) is the issue of the Prime > Minister. > > >> > > >> Forget Advani or Manmohan Singh or Rahul Gandhi or Narendra Modi. Even > > if > > >> Lord Krishna, Lord Ram, Prophet Muhammad or Jesus Christ were to stand > > for > > >> the post of Prime Minister, it would hardly make an effect, simply > > because > > >> people don't vote for personalities as PM. The major issues before > > people > > >> are concerned with their livelihood, be it 'roti, kapda and makan', > > water, > > >> health (this means a good hospital with working people and working > > >> equipments in the village or nearby places), good connection to cities > > >> through roads, education, and in this particular issue, two more > issues > > >> were > > >> important: inflation and security. > > >> > > >> So actually, the BJP did have issues to fight with: inflation and > > >> terrorism. > > >> Except that BJP doesn't have a great record in them either. > > >> > > >> As far as inflation is concerned, I can only remind of the 1998 > > elections > > >> in > > >> Delhi, Rajasthan and Madhya Pradesh, where BJP suffered a 440-KV shock > > on > > >> losing state elections. And as for terrorism, we all know how they > > fared. > > >> The Kandahar fiasco, the Parliament attack, the Godhra incident (I > > mention > > >> this here because the Gujarat BJP unit repeatedly mentioned this as an > > >> ISI-sponsored attack, so they can clarify on this. I mention it as an > > >> intelligence failure), the Akshardham temple attack, the Raghunath > > temple > > >> attack, the bomb blasts in Mulund and Ghatkopar, and so on. So before > > >> throwing stones at others, the BJP should look at its' own shallow > > record > > >> with respect to terror in the past. > > >> > > >> And on top of all this, then they have the foolishness in them to say > > that > > >> L.K. Advani is a strong leader. And to indicate this, they had posters > > >> showing Advani clenching his fists! Great! That way we could have put > > one > > >> of > > >> the wrestlers who had won a bronze medal for us in Olympics 2008 as > the > > PM > > >> candidate! Nobody could have been stronger than that! > > >> > > >> Strength doesn't come by repeatedly saying that 'I am strong'. A > person > > who > > >> is strong will never say that about himself; it's others who say that > > about > > >> him. Here we had Advani shooting off his own mouth about how strong he > > was. > > >> And people knew how to respond. > > >> > > >> Secondly, contrary to your statements Vedavati jee, the BJP hasn't > done > > >> that > > >> well as expected. In MP, it was expected to win more than 20 seats. > And > > >> Congress was not certainly expecting 10 seats which it won there. As > for > > >> Rajasthan, BJP has been wiped out when compared to last election. Only > > >> Chhatisgarh and Gujarat are the states where BJP has done better than > > >> previous times, in addition to Jharkhand of course. > > >> > > >> Thirdly, you are right. BJP should have expanded their base. But base > > could > > >> have been expanded by throwing away Hindutva (which ironically brings > to > > >> them supporters like you but alienates many), and trying to become a > > >> right-centrist party. People would have had no problems if BJP had no > > trust > > >> on Pakistan, wanted India to become a super-power, and had stated that > > they > > >> weren't embarassed on their Hindu roots. > > >> > > >> Instead, the BJP just seems hell bent on attacking minorities where > and > > >> when > > >> they can (Kandhamal and Karnataka being best examples) and then wants > > >> Muslims and Christians to vote for them! How do they expect a Muslim > > woman > > >> to vote for them when under their reign, she was raped in the name of > > 'Jai > > >> Shree Ram' by activists related to the larger parivar to which the BJP > > >> belongs? > > >> > > >> Similarly on the issue of appeasement. It is right that the Congress > and > > >> others have practiced Muslim appeasement. But does this mean Muslims > > should > > >> be punished? When Muslims haven't progressed, then it's the fault of > the > > >> Congress. How are they being then 'pampered'? Vote bank politics is > > >> actually > > >> to disadvantage of Muslims, and the BJP should have come to their > rescue > > by > > >> providing them development. Instead, the BJP gave them post-Godhra as > > gift. > > >> > > >> Fourth. Can Bipin jee inform me (or anybody else for that matter) as > to > > the > > >> proceedings under NDA which point to RTI? I would be glad to know. > > >> > > >> Fifth. Swathi jee, I think you raised two vital points. I agree with > you > > >> that it's not the Congress or the Left (do read this Bipin jee, this > is > > for > > >> you too) which brought either the NREGA or the RTI, it's the social > > >> movements which brought them. And I appreciate the courage they showed > > in > > >> their movement and the pressure they exerted, which was accepted by > the > > >> Left > > >> at very late stage, and finally this act was introduced. One must > never > > >> forget the kind of pressure exerted by the Times of India-Economic > > >> Times-Ambani-English mainstream media-their elitist friends combine, > to > > >> ensure the NREGA never got passed. > > >> > > >> But the larger point also remains that this govt did pass it. Would > the > > NDA > > >> have ever passed it? You know better than me what the answer to that > > would > > >> be. Therefore, we must accept their small contribution to getting this > > act > > >> passed and appreciate it, though the first credit to it lies with all > > those > > >> who fought tooth and nail in the first place to get the act passed. > > >> > > >> And Bipin jee, the NREGA was brought through a social movement. Better > > go > > >> and find about it rather than cribbing about policies you don't know a > > >> thing > > >> about. And as for your infrastructural development, the people of > India > > >> would want NREGA first rather than the Golden Quadrilateral. > > >> > > >> > > >> The second point Swathi jee has raised is about an elected PM. > > Personally, > > >> I > > >> would have liked Manmohan Singh jee to fight the election and win it. > > That > > >> would have silenced many people who always look upon him as the > 'stooge > > of > > >> Sonia'. However, unlike others, I wouldn't feel so bad about it. The > > larger > > >> issue is always the livelihood of people, and while Sonia may not have > > the > > >> responsibilities of the PM, she has the responsibilities of ensuring > her > > >> party wins elections. Therefore, even if the PM doesn't listen, she > has > > to > > >> listen to the voice of India, as she had to in the case of NREGA and > > RTI. > > >> > > >> Therefore, I don't worry much whether Manmohan is elected or not. I > > though > > >> have another reason as to why a PM should be elected. > > >> > > >> When a PM like say Vajpayee gets elected and then becomes PM, he knows > > the > > >> ways and means to win elections. And therefore he equally knows when > to > > >> start something, where to stop (why, where and when), where to set > > agendas > > >> and where to start working upon them. Manmohan I don't think has that > > >> political experience an elected PM have to manage his allies. This is > > clear > > >> from the way he reacted at different times to the nuclear deal. His > > >> reactions wouldn't have changed so much had he been an elected PM. > > Perhaps > > >> he could have handled the Left better in that case. > > >> > > >> But again this is only my speculation. It may be true, or it may be > > false. > > >> > > >> And democracy is not about elections. It is about giving rights to > > citizens > > >> and ensure that they are indeed actually provided those rights. So an > > >> elected PM or not is not a big issue. > > >> > > >> What is are the rights of people to secure their livelihood. > > >> > > >> If the BJP gains this huge lesson from this election, I would be the > > most > > >> happy person on this planet. And my frustration at this not happening > is > > >> what made me write in a nasty way, for which I am sorry. I would not > > repeat > > >> that again. > > >> > > >> And if the BJP doesn't learn it, then we need another party to come at > > >> centre to fight against Congress and displace BJP from its pole. > > >> > > >> And finally, the last word from one of my friends who also happens to > be > > a > > >> member of this list: > > >> > > >> The BJP lost because the revenues obtained through growth are spent > only > > to > > >> further growth. The Congress won because it spent partially the > revenues > > >> obtained through growth to bring up the poor to above-subsistence > level > > and > > >> contributed in some measure to equitable development in this manner. > > >> > > >> > > >> Regards > > >> > > >> Rakesh > > >> _________________________________________ > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >> Critiques & Collaborations > > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > >> subscribe in the subject header. > > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > >> > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > -- > > > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > -- > Aditya Raj Kaul > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From aliens at dataone.in Sun May 17 12:42:16 2009 From: aliens at dataone.in (bipin) Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 12:42:16 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] CONGRESSULATIONS Message-ID: <008001c9d6be$d2059000$0201a8c0@limo> Congratulations to Congress. Well done Manmohansingh, Sonia, Rahul. Manmohanji, without electing as MP you made history to be PM again from back door. Perhaps voter like your generosity, honesty, simplicity (which is lacking in most of the politician) leads to the victory path. Now you have got golden chance to prove yourself as stronger PM which was shown by you in only case of nuclear agreement. Also its golden chance for you to keep Chidambaram and Pawar out of finance and agricultural ministry as they were totally failure in this front and allowed to increase prices of essential commodity for their selfish motto. It is little wonder also that voter, even poor voter has not considered this point while voting. It is good fortune and stars for congress. Good Luck. Congrats Soniaji and your team, backdoor strategists for this victory. However, it is lollipop and even you have not expected such huge win this time as well as in 2004 also. Both win proved very lucky for you and this time you are free to work on real development work without hindrance and pressure tactics from allies. Congrats Rahulji. Youth people has massly voted to your youth appeal. This is the real reason for congress win. Since it was direct comparison with 80 year old Advani. Keep it up. Grab this golden opportunity with some real developmental work to carry out instead of going to the vote bank politics. Consolation to Advani. You are very good person, good at heart but late in your mission. Your age was the biggest hindrance and did not get mass appeal against youth. BJP should rethink and encourage youth. Also people want BJP to do constructive opposition role, which was lacking many cases last time and this is one reason for you to voted out. This is punishment for you. So perform the constructive opposition role and you will be benefited definitely in the near future. Consolation to Communists. Its real time to retrospect communists themselves and think on the direction of real development and come out of their labor union politics, naxalites backing, US hatred (I am not saying US is right all the way, but what is their good we must adopt it), unnecessary minority appeasement. I salute voter, who shown great maturity by electing one of the national party for steady and healthy progress. Voters has experienced two coalition rule of NDA and UPA and noticed regional/left parties behavior and made up their mind this time to limit the regional parties. Congratulation to voter by diminishing regional party and stop them taking undue advantage by pressure tactics from politics and by that way saved the huge money which was wasted by horse trading. UP and Bihar voters shown real maturity this time and they cut down all criminal MPs were there in last tenure. They did not got permission to contest the election and all have came up with their wives to contest, but they all were defeated this time. This is the real difference what we need and I am sure UP and Bihar will be on the track of development in the very near future. thanks BIPIN N.B Could not trace congress mail address. If anyone can give please inform me. From indersalim at gmail.com Sun May 17 12:57:34 2009 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 12:57:34 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Election Forecast In-Reply-To: <6353c690905161315q2dd709bapf02aad1a5d6f21e6@mail.gmail.com> References: <514676.38420.qm@web94715.mail.in2.yahoo.com> <6353c690905161050x3e66e47gc9c2d4cd91d20786@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70905161157x566074e6wea1d5feb85340601@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70905161307ob789c4fuc509a4f873d92af9@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690905161315q2dd709bapf02aad1a5d6f21e6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70905170027u25e0944ewce405090a2bfdf06@mail.gmail.com> yes, Modi, the killer Modi, the next PM in waiting, knows quite well how to take care of people like me, he must have improved on how to burn people more and more with less and less fire. and i predict now, that people like Varun Gandhi and Modi have no future in politics, if they paly this hate card too often. yes, Trade Unions for millions of Indian and many more in the world are like temples for of the masses. these unions have given them bread and butter, and in absence of Trade Unionism one can only imagine how much the cannibalistic greed of a corporate loves to devour .... the other benefit of living with the concept of Trade Union is that you develop some sensitivity towards the oppressed masses, the weaker sections of our society, which otherwise was not possible. Singing Bahajans, and following Mullah ji's fundamentalist paths dont lead a common man to a firm destination. Religous Fanaticism has been rejected by people in this elections, The verdict is the endorsement of the the concept of Left, indirectly. how can the victorious congress negate that initiatives made by the Left in the first place. With one exception of MK Gandhi who in the congress party did not benefit from the convictions of the communists thought,. yes, still, the bad element in the congress is Right (religious ), and the good element is Left ( socialist/communist ), and the good elements dominates, right now, any doubts Mr. AR Kaul with love is . On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 1:45 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > seems Inder Salim has been working in a navratan oil company and tired of > the left trade union :P How else would he have so much information about > Advaniji ? > > Don't worry Inder Sali, you will have your job; Modi is there still to take > care of you. > > Manali is a far dream still for you. > > On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 1:37 AM, Inder Salim wrote: > >> better than gratuity, ADvani ji might promote Nano car of Tata Ji >> >> and some advertise NAVRATTAN OIL, >> >>  i am sure  he will outwit AmitabBachan on that >> >> and earn more bucks, to  enjoy trout fish with red wine in Manali with >>  VajPAYEE Ji >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 12:27 AM, Pawan Durani >> wrote: >> > Great show by Congress ..... >> > >> > However the best thing about this election was the worst performance of >> Left >> > in last 40 years. >> > >> > Advani Ji now needs a peaceful retirement and perhaps may be rewarded >> with >> > Gratuity and other benefits..... >> > >> > Pawan >> > >> > >> > >> > On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 12:11 AM, Rakesh Iyer > >wrote: >> > >> >> Dear all >> >> >> >> I had gone out, so apologies (if required) for the delay. >> >> >> >> Unlike Anupam jee, I don't have problems with people changing their >> views >> >> provided they stick to it. So I won't comment on that. >> >> >> >> What I will comment on are some interesting thoughts. First of all, >> India >> >> has a parliamentary system where people choose their representatives on >> the >> >> first by post principle, and there are a number of factors at play. What >> is >> >> certainly not a factor (neither in 2004 nor in 2009 as CSDS surveys done >> by >> >> Yogendra Yadav repeatedly indicate) is the issue of the Prime Minister. >> >> >> >> Forget Advani or Manmohan Singh or Rahul Gandhi or Narendra Modi. Even >> if >> >> Lord Krishna, Lord Ram, Prophet Muhammad or Jesus Christ were to stand >> for >> >> the post of Prime Minister, it would hardly make an effect, simply >> because >> >> people don't vote for personalities as PM. The major issues before >> people >> >> are concerned with their livelihood, be it 'roti, kapda and makan', >> water, >> >> health (this means a good hospital with working people and working >> >> equipments in the village or nearby places), good connection to cities >> >> through roads, education, and in this particular issue, two more issues >> >> were >> >> important: inflation and security. >> >> >> >> So actually, the BJP did have issues to fight with: inflation and >> >> terrorism. >> >> Except that BJP doesn't have a great record in them either. >> >> >> >> As far as inflation is concerned, I can only remind of the 1998 >> elections >> >> in >> >> Delhi, Rajasthan and Madhya Pradesh, where BJP suffered a 440-KV shock >> on >> >> losing state elections. And as for terrorism, we all know how they >> fared. >> >> The Kandahar fiasco, the Parliament attack, the Godhra incident (I >> mention >> >> this here because the Gujarat BJP unit repeatedly mentioned this as an >> >> ISI-sponsored attack, so they can clarify on this. I mention it as an >> >> intelligence failure), the Akshardham temple attack, the Raghunath >> temple >> >> attack, the bomb blasts in Mulund and Ghatkopar, and so on. So before >> >> throwing stones at others, the BJP should look at its' own shallow >> record >> >> with respect to terror in the past. >> >> >> >> And on top of all this, then they have the foolishness in them to say >> that >> >> L.K. Advani is a strong leader. And to indicate this, they had posters >> >> showing Advani clenching his fists! Great! That way we could have put >> one >> >> of >> >> the wrestlers who had won a bronze medal for us in Olympics 2008 as the >> PM >> >> candidate! Nobody could have been stronger than that! >> >> >> >> Strength doesn't come by repeatedly saying that 'I am strong'. A person >> who >> >> is strong will never say that about himself; it's others who say that >> about >> >> him. Here we had Advani shooting off his own mouth about how strong he >> was. >> >> And people knew how to respond. >> >> >> >> Secondly, contrary to your statements Vedavati jee, the BJP hasn't done >> >> that >> >> well as expected. In MP, it was expected to win more than 20 seats. And >> >> Congress was not certainly expecting 10 seats which it won there. As for >> >> Rajasthan, BJP has been wiped out when compared to last election. Only >> >> Chhatisgarh and Gujarat are the states where BJP has done better than >> >> previous times, in addition to Jharkhand of course. >> >> >> >> Thirdly, you are right. BJP should have expanded their base. But base >> could >> >> have been expanded by throwing away Hindutva (which ironically brings to >> >> them supporters like you but alienates many), and trying to become a >> >> right-centrist party. People would have had no problems if BJP had no >> trust >> >> on Pakistan, wanted India to become a super-power, and had stated that >> they >> >> weren't embarassed on their Hindu roots. >> >> >> >> Instead, the BJP just seems hell bent on attacking minorities where and >> >> when >> >> they can (Kandhamal and Karnataka being best examples) and then wants >> >> Muslims and Christians to vote for them! How do they expect a Muslim >> woman >> >> to vote for them when under their reign, she was raped in the name of >> 'Jai >> >> Shree Ram' by activists related to the larger parivar to which the BJP >> >> belongs? >> >> >> >> Similarly on the issue of appeasement. It is right that the Congress and >> >> others have practiced Muslim appeasement. But does this mean Muslims >> should >> >> be punished? When Muslims haven't progressed, then it's the fault of the >> >> Congress. How are they being then 'pampered'? Vote bank politics is >> >> actually >> >> to disadvantage of Muslims, and the BJP should have come to their rescue >> by >> >> providing them development. Instead, the BJP gave them post-Godhra as >> gift. >> >> >> >> Fourth. Can Bipin jee inform me (or anybody else for that matter) as to >> the >> >> proceedings under NDA which point to RTI? I would be glad to know. >> >> >> >> Fifth. Swathi jee, I think you raised two vital points. I agree with you >> >> that it's not the Congress or the Left (do read this Bipin jee, this is >> for >> >> you too) which brought either the NREGA or the RTI, it's the social >> >> movements which brought them. And I appreciate the courage they showed >> in >> >> their movement and the pressure they exerted, which was accepted by the >> >> Left >> >> at very late stage, and finally this act was introduced. One must never >> >> forget the kind of pressure exerted by the Times of India-Economic >> >> Times-Ambani-English mainstream media-their elitist friends combine, to >> >> ensure the NREGA never got passed. >> >> >> >> But the larger point also remains that this govt did pass it. Would the >> NDA >> >> have ever passed it? You know better than me what the answer to that >> would >> >> be. Therefore, we must accept their small contribution to getting this >> act >> >> passed and appreciate it, though the first credit to it lies with all >> those >> >> who fought tooth and nail in the first place to get the act passed. >> >> >> >> And Bipin jee, the NREGA was brought through a social movement. Better >> go >> >> and find about it rather than cribbing about policies you don't know a >> >> thing >> >> about. And as for your infrastructural development, the people of India >> >> would want NREGA first rather than the Golden Quadrilateral. >> >> >> >> >> >> The second point Swathi jee has raised is about an elected PM. >> Personally, >> >> I >> >> would have liked Manmohan Singh jee to fight the election and win it. >> That >> >> would have silenced many people who always look upon him as the 'stooge >> of >> >> Sonia'. However, unlike others, I wouldn't feel so bad about it. The >> larger >> >> issue is always the livelihood of people, and while Sonia may not have >> the >> >> responsibilities of the PM, she has the responsibilities of ensuring her >> >> party wins elections. Therefore, even if the PM doesn't listen, she has >> to >> >> listen to the voice of India, as she had to in the case of NREGA and >> RTI. >> >> >> >> Therefore, I don't worry much whether Manmohan is elected or not. I >> though >> >> have another reason as to why a PM should be elected. >> >> >> >> When a PM like say Vajpayee gets elected and then becomes PM, he knows >> the >> >> ways and means to win elections. And therefore he equally knows when to >> >> start something, where to stop (why, where and when), where to set >> agendas >> >> and where to start working upon them. Manmohan I don't think has that >> >> political experience an elected PM have to manage his allies. This is >> clear >> >> from the way he reacted at different times to the nuclear deal. His >> >> reactions wouldn't have changed so much had he been an elected PM. >> Perhaps >> >> he could have handled the Left better in that case. >> >> >> >> But again this is only my speculation. It may be true, or it may be >> false. >> >> >> >> And democracy is not about elections. It is about giving rights to >> citizens >> >> and ensure that they are indeed actually provided those rights. So an >> >> elected PM or not is not a big issue. >> >> >> >> What is are the rights of people to secure their livelihood. >> >> >> >> If the BJP gains this huge lesson from this election, I would be the >> most >> >> happy person on this planet. And my frustration at this not happening is >> >> what made me write in a nasty way, for which I am sorry. I would not >> repeat >> >> that again. >> >> >> >> And if the BJP doesn't learn it, then we need another party to come at >> >> centre to fight against Congress and displace BJP from its pole. >> >> >> >> And finally, the last word from one of my friends who also happens to be >> a >> >> member of this list: >> >> >> >> The BJP lost because the revenues obtained through growth are spent only >> to >> >> further growth. The Congress won because it spent partially the revenues >> >> obtained through growth to bring up the poor to above-subsistence level >> and >> >> contributed in some measure to equitable development in this manner. >> >> >> >> >> >> Regards >> >> >> >> Rakesh >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >>  List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > > > -- > Aditya Raj Kaul > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From akmalik45 at yahoo.com Sun May 17 13:06:23 2009 From: akmalik45 at yahoo.com (A.K. Malik) Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 00:36:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] CONGRESSULATIONS Message-ID: <226733.86262.qm@web39104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dear Bipinji, Congress has a website http://www.aicc.org.in wherein you can give your feedback in not more than 30 words, if you so like. (A.K.MALIK) --- On Sun, 5/17/09, bipin wrote: > From: bipin > Subject: [Reader-list] CONGRESSULATIONS > To: "sarai-list" , "c-positive group" > Cc: webmaster at bjp.org, cpim at vsnl.com > Date: Sunday, May 17, 2009, 12:42 PM > Congratulations to Congress. Well > done Manmohansingh, Sonia, Rahul. > > Manmohanji, without electing as MP you made history to be > PM again from back door. Perhaps voter like your generosity, > honesty, simplicity (which is lacking in most of the > politician) leads to the victory path. Now you have got > golden chance to prove yourself as stronger PM which was > shown by you in only case of nuclear agreement. Also its > golden chance for you to keep Chidambaram and Pawar out of > finance and agricultural ministry as they were totally > failure in this front and allowed to increase prices of > essential commodity for their selfish motto. It is little > wonder also that voter, even poor voter has not considered > this point while voting. It is good fortune and stars for > congress. Good Luck. > > Congrats Soniaji and your team, backdoor strategists for > this victory. However, it is lollipop and even you have not > expected such huge win this time as well as in 2004 also. > Both win proved very lucky for you and this time you are > free to work on real development work without hindrance and > pressure tactics from allies. > > Congrats Rahulji. Youth people has massly voted to your > youth appeal. This is the real reason for congress win. > Since it was direct comparison with 80 year old Advani. Keep > it up. Grab this golden opportunity with some real > developmental work to carry out instead of going to the vote > bank politics. > > Consolation to Advani. You are very good person, good at > heart but late in your mission. Your age was the biggest > hindrance and did not get mass appeal against youth. BJP > should rethink and encourage youth. Also people want BJP to > do constructive opposition role, which was lacking many > cases last time and this is one reason for you to voted out. > This is punishment for you. So perform the constructive > opposition role and you will be benefited definitely in the > near future. > > Consolation to Communists. Its real time to retrospect > communists themselves and think on the direction of real > development and come out of their labor union politics, > naxalites backing, US hatred (I am not saying US is right > all the way, but what is their good we must adopt it), > unnecessary minority appeasement. > > I salute voter, who shown great maturity by electing one of > the national party for steady and healthy progress. Voters > has experienced two coalition rule of NDA and UPA and > noticed regional/left parties behavior and made up their > mind this time to limit the regional parties. Congratulation > to voter by diminishing regional party and stop them taking > undue advantage by pressure tactics from politics and by > that way saved the huge money which was wasted by horse > trading. > > UP and Bihar voters shown real maturity this time and they > cut down all criminal MPs were there in last tenure. They > did not got permission to contest the election and all have > came up with their wives to contest, but they all were > defeated this time. This is the real difference what we need > and I am sure UP and Bihar will be on the track of > development in the very near future. > > thanks > BIPIN > > N.B Could not trace congress mail address. If anyone can > give please inform me. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From c.anupam at gmail.com Sun May 17 13:11:21 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 13:11:21 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] CONGRESSULATIONS In-Reply-To: <008001c9d6be$d2059000$0201a8c0@limo> References: <008001c9d6be$d2059000$0201a8c0@limo> Message-ID: <341380d00905170041x6d195e04u10188f66c6eceb1a@mail.gmail.com> dear bipin, can you substantiate the following claims. i will be really interested if you could: 1. Manmohanji, without electing as MP you made history to be PM again from back door. ( Don't you think its the constitution that gives such a provision which allow manmohan to become a legitimate PM?) 2. Also its golden chance for you to keep Chidambaram and Pawar out of finance and agricultural ministry as they were totally failure in this front and allowed to increase prices of essential commodity for their selfish motto. It is little wonder also that voter, even poor voter has not considered this point while voting. (Chidambaram and Pawar can be kept out of ministry but how do you say that they would favour the increase in prices of essential commodities? and then you go on to cite poor voter has not considered this point? isnt little absurd to make such a statement. anyway unless you have proof, i am not to dispute it) 3. i am also amazed by your use of the word "backdoor". As in how many times the strategies planned by political parties are "frontdoor". 4. "Also people want BJP to do constructive opposition role, which was lacking many cases last time and this is one reason for you to voted out. This is punishment for you." (BJP has been punished not because of its role as opposition. As an opposition, BJP scores more than any of the other parties including the left especially when it comes matters of national interest.) 5. Its real time to retrospect communists ... naxalites backing. (How do you say that Communists as in the CPM and CPI (M) back naxalites?) with regards anupam On 5/17/09, bipin wrote: > > Congratulations to Congress. Well done Manmohansingh, Sonia, Rahul. > > Manmohanji, without electing as MP you made history to be PM again from > back door. Perhaps voter like your generosity, honesty, simplicity (which is > lacking in most of the politician) leads to the victory path. Now you have > got golden chance to prove yourself as stronger PM which was shown by you in > only case of nuclear agreement. Also its golden chance for you to keep > Chidambaram and Pawar out of finance and agricultural ministry as they were > totally failure in this front and allowed to increase prices of essential > commodity for their selfish motto. It is little wonder also that voter, even > poor voter has not considered this point while voting. It is good fortune > and stars for congress. Good Luck. > > Congrats Soniaji and your team, backdoor strategists for this victory. > However, it is lollipop and even you have not expected such huge win this > time as well as in 2004 also. Both win proved very lucky for you and this > time you are free to work on real development work without hindrance and > pressure tactics from allies. > > Congrats Rahulji. Youth people has massly voted to your youth appeal. This > is the real reason for congress win. Since it was direct comparison with 80 > year old Advani. Keep it up. Grab this golden opportunity with some real > developmental work to carry out instead of going to the vote bank politics. > > Consolation to Advani. You are very good person, good at heart but late in > your mission. Your age was the biggest hindrance and did not get mass appeal > against youth. BJP should rethink and encourage youth. Also people want BJP > to do constructive opposition role, which was lacking many cases last time > and this is one reason for you to voted out. This is punishment for you. So > perform the constructive opposition role and you will be benefited > definitely in the near future. > > Consolation to Communists. Its real time to retrospect communists > themselves and think on the direction of real development and come out of > their labor union politics, naxalites backing, US hatred (I am not saying US > is right all the way, but what is their good we must adopt it), unnecessary > minority appeasement. > > I salute voter, who shown great maturity by electing one of the national > party for steady and healthy progress. Voters has experienced two coalition > rule of NDA and UPA and noticed regional/left parties behavior and made up > their mind this time to limit the regional parties. Congratulation to voter > by diminishing regional party and stop them taking undue advantage by > pressure tactics from politics and by that way saved the huge money which > was wasted by horse trading. > > UP and Bihar voters shown real maturity this time and they cut down all > criminal MPs were there in last tenure. They did not got permission to > contest the election and all have came up with their wives to contest, but > they all were defeated this time. This is the real difference what we need > and I am sure UP and Bihar will be on the track of development in the very > near future. > > thanks > BIPIN > > N.B Could not trace congress mail address. If anyone can give please inform > me. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From aliens at dataone.in Sun May 17 13:16:30 2009 From: aliens at dataone.in (bipin) Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 13:16:30 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] CONGRESSULATIONS References: <226733.86262.qm@web39104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <008901c9d6c3$97f21000$0201a8c0@limo> Dear Malik, thanks for your response, but feedback has only limit of 30 characters not at all sufficient for any feedback purpose. There is no email address in the site only phone numbers and address. thanks Bipin ----- Original Message ----- From: "A.K. Malik" To: "bipin" Cc: "Sarai List" Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2009 1:06 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] CONGRESSULATIONS > > Dear Bipinji, > Congress has a website http://www.aicc.org.in wherein you > can give your feedback in not more than 30 words, if you so like. > > (A.K.MALIK) > > > --- On Sun, 5/17/09, bipin wrote: > >> From: bipin >> Subject: [Reader-list] CONGRESSULATIONS >> To: "sarai-list" , "c-positive group" >> >> Cc: webmaster at bjp.org, cpim at vsnl.com >> Date: Sunday, May 17, 2009, 12:42 PM >> Congratulations to Congress. Well >> done Manmohansingh, Sonia, Rahul. >> >> Manmohanji, without electing as MP you made history to be >> PM again from back door. Perhaps voter like your generosity, >> honesty, simplicity (which is lacking in most of the >> politician) leads to the victory path. Now you have got >> golden chance to prove yourself as stronger PM which was >> shown by you in only case of nuclear agreement. Also its >> golden chance for you to keep Chidambaram and Pawar out of >> finance and agricultural ministry as they were totally >> failure in this front and allowed to increase prices of >> essential commodity for their selfish motto. It is little >> wonder also that voter, even poor voter has not considered >> this point while voting. It is good fortune and stars for >> congress. Good Luck. >> >> Congrats Soniaji and your team, backdoor strategists for >> this victory. However, it is lollipop and even you have not >> expected such huge win this time as well as in 2004 also. >> Both win proved very lucky for you and this time you are >> free to work on real development work without hindrance and >> pressure tactics from allies. >> >> Congrats Rahulji. Youth people has massly voted to your >> youth appeal. This is the real reason for congress win. >> Since it was direct comparison with 80 year old Advani. Keep >> it up. Grab this golden opportunity with some real >> developmental work to carry out instead of going to the vote >> bank politics. >> >> Consolation to Advani. You are very good person, good at >> heart but late in your mission. Your age was the biggest >> hindrance and did not get mass appeal against youth. BJP >> should rethink and encourage youth. Also people want BJP to >> do constructive opposition role, which was lacking many >> cases last time and this is one reason for you to voted out. >> This is punishment for you. So perform the constructive >> opposition role and you will be benefited definitely in the >> near future. >> >> Consolation to Communists. Its real time to retrospect >> communists themselves and think on the direction of real >> development and come out of their labor union politics, >> naxalites backing, US hatred (I am not saying US is right >> all the way, but what is their good we must adopt it), >> unnecessary minority appeasement. >> >> I salute voter, who shown great maturity by electing one of >> the national party for steady and healthy progress. Voters >> has experienced two coalition rule of NDA and UPA and >> noticed regional/left parties behavior and made up their >> mind this time to limit the regional parties. Congratulation >> to voter by diminishing regional party and stop them taking >> undue advantage by pressure tactics from politics and by >> that way saved the huge money which was wasted by horse >> trading. >> >> UP and Bihar voters shown real maturity this time and they >> cut down all criminal MPs were there in last tenure. They >> did not got permission to contest the election and all have >> came up with their wives to contest, but they all were >> defeated this time. This is the real difference what we need >> and I am sure UP and Bihar will be on the track of >> development in the very near future. >> >> thanks >> BIPIN >> >> N.B Could not trace congress mail address. If anyone can >> give please inform me. >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the >> city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >> with subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > From c.anupam at gmail.com Sun May 17 13:44:31 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 13:44:31 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Election Forecast In-Reply-To: <47e122a70905170027u25e0944ewce405090a2bfdf06@mail.gmail.com> References: <514676.38420.qm@web94715.mail.in2.yahoo.com> <6353c690905161050x3e66e47gc9c2d4cd91d20786@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70905161157x566074e6wea1d5feb85340601@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70905161307ob789c4fuc509a4f873d92af9@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690905161315q2dd709bapf02aad1a5d6f21e6@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70905170027u25e0944ewce405090a2bfdf06@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00905170114s38527500s6ebd06fa0bd5998c@mail.gmail.com> The Indian left was not really leftist in its ideals as demonstrated in case of Nandigram, in case of Chengkara in Kerela. Most of the trade unions have been fractured and stand at the mercy of the AITUC or INTUC or Mazdoor Sabha, which are nothing but an extention of corporate greed. Now in garb of trade unionism, religious fanactism is peddled by union leaders to organise workers Although, i agree that this election served as deterrent for BJP leaders such as Modi. However, Varun Gandhi cashed in on his hate speech. Pilibhit, where Hindus and Muslim carpenter used to work together would never be the same. So even if t in totality you express your satisfaction over UPA's performance, people such Varun Gandhi has managed to carve a place for himself. Now just imagine this man in the Lok Sabha! FYI, the concept of opposing religious fanactism is not just from left. we are talking about religious reformation so that behemoths such as bajrang dal, al-qaeda, ku klux klan and similar outfits loose their relevance. but left's idea of keeping religions as a personal and on extremes banning religions is extremely problemmatic. thanks anupam On 5/17/09, Inder Salim wrote: > yes, Modi, the killer Modi, the next PM in waiting, knows quite well > how to take care of people like me, > > he must have improved on how to burn people more and more with less > and less fire. > and i predict now, that people like Varun Gandhi and Modi have no > future in politics, if they paly this hate card too often. > > yes, Trade Unions for millions of Indian and many more in the world > are like temples for of the masses. > these unions have given them bread and butter, and in absence of Trade > Unionism > one can only imagine how much the cannibalistic greed of a corporate > loves to devour .... > > the other benefit of living with the concept of Trade Union is that > you develop some sensitivity towards the oppressed masses, the weaker > sections of our society, which otherwise was not possible. > > Singing Bahajans, and following Mullah ji's fundamentalist paths dont > lead a common man to a firm destination. > > Religous Fanaticism has been rejected by people in this elections, > The verdict is the endorsement of the the concept of Left, indirectly. > > how can the victorious congress negate that initiatives made by the > Left in the first place. > > With one exception of MK Gandhi who in the congress party did not > benefit from the convictions of the communists thought,. > > yes, still, the bad element in the congress is Right (religious ), and > the good element is Left ( socialist/communist ), and the good > elements dominates, right now, > > any doubts Mr. AR Kaul > > with love > is > > > . > > > > On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 1:45 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul > wrote: > > seems Inder Salim has been working in a navratan oil company and tired of > > the left trade union :P How else would he have so much information about > > Advaniji ? > > > > Don't worry Inder Sali, you will have your job; Modi is there still to > take > > care of you. > > > > Manali is a far dream still for you. > > > > On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 1:37 AM, Inder Salim > wrote: > > > >> better than gratuity, ADvani ji might promote Nano car of Tata Ji > >> > >> and some advertise NAVRATTAN OIL, > >> > >> i am sure he will outwit AmitabBachan on that > >> > >> and earn more bucks, to enjoy trout fish with red wine in Manali with > >> VajPAYEE Ji > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 12:27 AM, Pawan Durani > >> wrote: > >> > Great show by Congress ..... > >> > > >> > However the best thing about this election was the worst performance > of > >> Left > >> > in last 40 years. > >> > > >> > Advani Ji now needs a peaceful retirement and perhaps may be rewarded > >> with > >> > Gratuity and other benefits..... > >> > > >> > Pawan > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 12:11 AM, Rakesh Iyer >> >wrote: > >> > > >> >> Dear all > >> >> > >> >> I had gone out, so apologies (if required) for the delay. > >> >> > >> >> Unlike Anupam jee, I don't have problems with people changing their > >> views > >> >> provided they stick to it. So I won't comment on that. > >> >> > >> >> What I will comment on are some interesting thoughts. First of all, > >> India > >> >> has a parliamentary system where people choose their representatives > on > >> the > >> >> first by post principle, and there are a number of factors at play. > What > >> is > >> >> certainly not a factor (neither in 2004 nor in 2009 as CSDS surveys > done > >> by > >> >> Yogendra Yadav repeatedly indicate) is the issue of the Prime > Minister. > >> >> > >> >> Forget Advani or Manmohan Singh or Rahul Gandhi or Narendra Modi. > Even > >> if > >> >> Lord Krishna, Lord Ram, Prophet Muhammad or Jesus Christ were to > stand > >> for > >> >> the post of Prime Minister, it would hardly make an effect, simply > >> because > >> >> people don't vote for personalities as PM. The major issues before > >> people > >> >> are concerned with their livelihood, be it 'roti, kapda and makan', > >> water, > >> >> health (this means a good hospital with working people and working > >> >> equipments in the village or nearby places), good connection to > cities > >> >> through roads, education, and in this particular issue, two more > issues > >> >> were > >> >> important: inflation and security. > >> >> > >> >> So actually, the BJP did have issues to fight with: inflation and > >> >> terrorism. > >> >> Except that BJP doesn't have a great record in them either. > >> >> > >> >> As far as inflation is concerned, I can only remind of the 1998 > >> elections > >> >> in > >> >> Delhi, Rajasthan and Madhya Pradesh, where BJP suffered a 440-KV > shock > >> on > >> >> losing state elections. And as for terrorism, we all know how they > >> fared. > >> >> The Kandahar fiasco, the Parliament attack, the Godhra incident (I > >> mention > >> >> this here because the Gujarat BJP unit repeatedly mentioned this as > an > >> >> ISI-sponsored attack, so they can clarify on this. I mention it as an > >> >> intelligence failure), the Akshardham temple attack, the Raghunath > >> temple > >> >> attack, the bomb blasts in Mulund and Ghatkopar, and so on. So before > >> >> throwing stones at others, the BJP should look at its' own shallow > >> record > >> >> with respect to terror in the past. > >> >> > >> >> And on top of all this, then they have the foolishness in them to say > >> that > >> >> L.K. Advani is a strong leader. And to indicate this, they had > posters > >> >> showing Advani clenching his fists! Great! That way we could have put > >> one > >> >> of > >> >> the wrestlers who had won a bronze medal for us in Olympics 2008 as > the > >> PM > >> >> candidate! Nobody could have been stronger than that! > >> >> > >> >> Strength doesn't come by repeatedly saying that 'I am strong'. A > person > >> who > >> >> is strong will never say that about himself; it's others who say that > >> about > >> >> him. Here we had Advani shooting off his own mouth about how strong > he > >> was. > >> >> And people knew how to respond. > >> >> > >> >> Secondly, contrary to your statements Vedavati jee, the BJP hasn't > done > >> >> that > >> >> well as expected. In MP, it was expected to win more than 20 seats. > And > >> >> Congress was not certainly expecting 10 seats which it won there. As > for > >> >> Rajasthan, BJP has been wiped out when compared to last election. > Only > >> >> Chhatisgarh and Gujarat are the states where BJP has done better than > >> >> previous times, in addition to Jharkhand of course. > >> >> > >> >> Thirdly, you are right. BJP should have expanded their base. But base > >> could > >> >> have been expanded by throwing away Hindutva (which ironically brings > to > >> >> them supporters like you but alienates many), and trying to become a > >> >> right-centrist party. People would have had no problems if BJP had no > >> trust > >> >> on Pakistan, wanted India to become a super-power, and had stated > that > >> they > >> >> weren't embarassed on their Hindu roots. > >> >> > >> >> Instead, the BJP just seems hell bent on attacking minorities where > and > >> >> when > >> >> they can (Kandhamal and Karnataka being best examples) and then wants > >> >> Muslims and Christians to vote for them! How do they expect a Muslim > >> woman > >> >> to vote for them when under their reign, she was raped in the name of > >> 'Jai > >> >> Shree Ram' by activists related to the larger parivar to which the > BJP > >> >> belongs? > >> >> > >> >> Similarly on the issue of appeasement. It is right that the Congress > and > >> >> others have practiced Muslim appeasement. But does this mean Muslims > >> should > >> >> be punished? When Muslims haven't progressed, then it's the fault of > the > >> >> Congress. How are they being then 'pampered'? Vote bank politics is > >> >> actually > >> >> to disadvantage of Muslims, and the BJP should have come to their > rescue > >> by > >> >> providing them development. Instead, the BJP gave them post-Godhra as > >> gift. > >> >> > >> >> Fourth. Can Bipin jee inform me (or anybody else for that matter) as > to > >> the > >> >> proceedings under NDA which point to RTI? I would be glad to know. > >> >> > >> >> Fifth. Swathi jee, I think you raised two vital points. I agree with > you > >> >> that it's not the Congress or the Left (do read this Bipin jee, this > is > >> for > >> >> you too) which brought either the NREGA or the RTI, it's the social > >> >> movements which brought them. And I appreciate the courage they > showed > >> in > >> >> their movement and the pressure they exerted, which was accepted by > the > >> >> Left > >> >> at very late stage, and finally this act was introduced. One must > never > >> >> forget the kind of pressure exerted by the Times of India-Economic > >> >> Times-Ambani-English mainstream media-their elitist friends combine, > to > >> >> ensure the NREGA never got passed. > >> >> > >> >> But the larger point also remains that this govt did pass it. Would > the > >> NDA > >> >> have ever passed it? You know better than me what the answer to that > >> would > >> >> be. Therefore, we must accept their small contribution to getting > this > >> act > >> >> passed and appreciate it, though the first credit to it lies with all > >> those > >> >> who fought tooth and nail in the first place to get the act passed. > >> >> > >> >> And Bipin jee, the NREGA was brought through a social movement. > Better > >> go > >> >> and find about it rather than cribbing about policies you don't know > a > >> >> thing > >> >> about. And as for your infrastructural development, the people of > India > >> >> would want NREGA first rather than the Golden Quadrilateral. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> The second point Swathi jee has raised is about an elected PM. > >> Personally, > >> >> I > >> >> would have liked Manmohan Singh jee to fight the election and win it. > >> That > >> >> would have silenced many people who always look upon him as the > 'stooge > >> of > >> >> Sonia'. However, unlike others, I wouldn't feel so bad about it. The > >> larger > >> >> issue is always the livelihood of people, and while Sonia may not > have > >> the > >> >> responsibilities of the PM, she has the responsibilities of ensuring > her > >> >> party wins elections. Therefore, even if the PM doesn't listen, she > has > >> to > >> >> listen to the voice of India, as she had to in the case of NREGA and > >> RTI. > >> >> > >> >> Therefore, I don't worry much whether Manmohan is elected or not. I > >> though > >> >> have another reason as to why a PM should be elected. > >> >> > >> >> When a PM like say Vajpayee gets elected and then becomes PM, he > knows > >> the > >> >> ways and means to win elections. And therefore he equally knows when > to > >> >> start something, where to stop (why, where and when), where to set > >> agendas > >> >> and where to start working upon them. Manmohan I don't think has that > >> >> political experience an elected PM have to manage his allies. This is > >> clear > >> >> from the way he reacted at different times to the nuclear deal. His > >> >> reactions wouldn't have changed so much had he been an elected PM. > >> Perhaps > >> >> he could have handled the Left better in that case. > >> >> > >> >> But again this is only my speculation. It may be true, or it may be > >> false. > >> >> > >> >> And democracy is not about elections. It is about giving rights to > >> citizens > >> >> and ensure that they are indeed actually provided those rights. So an > >> >> elected PM or not is not a big issue. > >> >> > >> >> What is are the rights of people to secure their livelihood. > >> >> > >> >> If the BJP gains this huge lesson from this election, I would be the > >> most > >> >> happy person on this planet. And my frustration at this not happening > is > >> >> what made me write in a nasty way, for which I am sorry. I would not > >> repeat > >> >> that again. > >> >> > >> >> And if the BJP doesn't learn it, then we need another party to come > at > >> >> centre to fight against Congress and displace BJP from its pole. > >> >> > >> >> And finally, the last word from one of my friends who also happens to > be > >> a > >> >> member of this list: > >> >> > >> >> The BJP lost because the revenues obtained through growth are spent > only > >> to > >> >> further growth. The Congress won because it spent partially the > revenues > >> >> obtained through growth to bring up the poor to above-subsistence > level > >> and > >> >> contributed in some measure to equitable development in this manner. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Regards > >> >> > >> >> Rakesh > >> >> _________________________________________ > >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> >> > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> > >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sun May 17 13:51:10 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 01:21:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Election Forecast Message-ID: <855444.5137.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Rakesh   You wrote : "And unlike Gujarati society (or a section of Gujarati society), other societies are not worried about their masculinity that they have to portray it again and again........"   That appears to be a downright racist comment. Did not expect it from you.   Kshmendra --- On Sun, 5/17/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: From: Rakesh Iyer Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Election Forecast To: "Inder Salim" Cc: "reader-list" Date: Sunday, May 17, 2009, 1:49 AM Is drinking wine and eating fish allowed in the RSS pracharak menu? After all, the parivar sometimes also cribs about non-vegetarians in Hinduism. Or can exceptions be made? Waise Advani jee always runs away when challenged to face the battle. His occasions of cringing in despair: when Babri Masjid was demolished, when post-Godhra was happening, when he lost power in 2004, this time when his party can't form the govt again in 2009, Jinnah controversy....... What he needs is some shock treatment to forget his past and start life afresh... Oh yes...Modi....how can we forget him. His problem is that he always thinks India is a part of Gujarat (in terms of demographic constitution) rather than the vice-versa......can he overcome that to begin with? And unlike Gujarati society (or a section of Gujarati society), other societies are not worried about their masculinity that they have to portray it again and again........ _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Sun May 17 14:05:33 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 14:05:33 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Election Forecast In-Reply-To: <341380d00905170114s38527500s6ebd06fa0bd5998c@mail.gmail.com> References: <514676.38420.qm@web94715.mail.in2.yahoo.com> <6353c690905161050x3e66e47gc9c2d4cd91d20786@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70905161157x566074e6wea1d5feb85340601@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70905161307ob789c4fuc509a4f873d92af9@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690905161315q2dd709bapf02aad1a5d6f21e6@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70905170027u25e0944ewce405090a2bfdf06@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00905170114s38527500s6ebd06fa0bd5998c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Kshamendra I think my comment can or may be seen as racist by some and non-racist by others. It depends on your sight. and understanding. My comment was not on the Gujarati society at whole, but on those who elect BJP on the reason that Muslims have to be taught their lesson and that Hindus are weak and effete. It's not a comment on those who vote for BJP due to progress, their development, or petty or personal gains. For them we can think and discuss differently. However I used both 'the Gujarati society' and 'a section of the Gujarati society' simply because either of them may be true. And if it hurts Gujaratis, they should actually introspect on why Modi gets elected for certain reasons in Gujarat, and the very same reasons ensure that BJP never gets power at the Centre. (like Modi's antics, his high-vitriolic speeches and so on, which at national level ensure NDA's defeat time and again). And they should ponder whether the value systems which have allowed Modi to flower, can actually help the society at large or not, Are these values the hallmark of a developed society, and a developed country, which we wish to become by 2020? Otherwise, Gujarat will keep electing BJP, and the Centre will still be the UPA's. The BJP doesn't seem to analyze this question ever, so Gujaratis only have the choice to look at it (Or again a section of Gujaratis, and here you can understand which section I refer to). Because after all, it hurts me not that Modi gets elected again and again; it hurts me that a section of the Gujarati middle class feels that Muslims deserved post-Godhra, that they are Pakistan supporters, that Congress will bring progress only to Muslims (which it never did in the first place to a substantial extent). I dont' want Modi to be dismissed arbitarily, but what I want is that society (or a section of society) to introspect whether it is doing right or wrong by believing such value systems. And if still people feel offended, I apologize. Regards Rakesh From virtuallyme at gmail.com Sun May 17 14:16:05 2009 From: virtuallyme at gmail.com (Rohan DSouza) Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 14:16:05 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 70, Issue 84 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <79e82f610905170146m53e056e8k268f7611030f294b@mail.gmail.com> In the context of the point that Swathi brings up of civil society activism paving the way for NREGA, RTI etc, it will also be interesting to also look at the role of the National Advisory Council (http://nac.nic.in/). What was the role it played, vis-a-vis the common minimum program? How does one look at such stated government-civil society interface institutions in a democratic set up. Where does it get its legitimacy from? Does/did it take up the role of a pressure group, interest group? And also in hindsight what led to the demise of the council and what led to people like Aruna Roy resigning in protest. How did the various political parties/politicians within the UPA, as well as the Prime Minister see this group? Did how it turn out conflict with their expectation/view of it? Rohan > Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 18:42:45 +0530 > From: swathi shivanand > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Election Forecast > To: Rakesh Iyer > Cc: Sarai > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Firstly, all victory must be tempered with some sobriety. And difficult > questions have to be asked. > > We are going to have, yet another time, a prime minister who has not > contested elections. if his record were impeccable, one wonders why he chose > not to stand? One could easily dismiss the idea that 'he was scared that he > would lose" as understandably naive. So what is that had the prime > ministerial candidate not contest elections? Should we wonder what that says > about his (and by extension the congress' and the upa's) notions about > democracy and respect for it? > > To nuance your point further, The NREGA and the RTI were passed after much > prodding and much civil society activism. If the UPA is credited with > bringing in these programmes and policies, some credit is also due to the > Left and other Congress allies. > > Swathi > > On Sat, May 16, 2009 at 4:05 PM, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > >> Dear all >> >> The BJP and the Left have been shown the middle finger in these elections. >> And for all those in the forum who keep dismissing the Congress, do dismiss >> dynastic politics, but realize that NREGA, RTI and Right to Forest Land for >> tribals are important for the 'aam aadmi', so also other issues of >> livelihood, not your Golden Quadrilateral, economic disinvestment and >> Narendra Modi-Advani duo's 'strong leadership'. >> >> Concentrate on that. Otherwise keep seeing the middle finger shown by the >> rest of India to you too. >> >> Regards >> >> Rakesh >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > ------------------------------ From indersalim at gmail.com Sun May 17 14:37:08 2009 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 14:37:08 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Election Forecast In-Reply-To: <341380d00905170114s38527500s6ebd06fa0bd5998c@mail.gmail.com> References: <514676.38420.qm@web94715.mail.in2.yahoo.com> <6353c690905161050x3e66e47gc9c2d4cd91d20786@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70905161157x566074e6wea1d5feb85340601@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70905161307ob789c4fuc509a4f873d92af9@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690905161315q2dd709bapf02aad1a5d6f21e6@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70905170027u25e0944ewce405090a2bfdf06@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00905170114s38527500s6ebd06fa0bd5998c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70905170207n6f7212e6m5cde2a815bf696fa@mail.gmail.com> Dear Anupam yes, trade unions have become rigid and shallow minded in their understanding of what the workers actually are all about. so has the Left at higher level , in absence of a need for a constant research on the actual needs of a workers,as instinctively, there was always a demand for inclusion of ' desire' in the agenda for roti kapda and makkan ( food , garment and house ) so the people had to resort to the obsolete treatments to understand the desire part of ones life. but in the West if there has been a debate on walking on two legs ' Freud and Marx' ( as by Felix Guttari ) here in our world, we had none, so it is not surprising that the Left gave birth to a unfortunate Nandigram like thing. because if there is less exposure about the reality of chaos in human life, on a mere obvious knowledge of reality, intellectuals often escape. so left lost. In that sense Right wing politics too, remains problematic in absence of reforms. and if there is any development in India,worth talking about, it is perhaps, because we have had social revolutions in the world. changes are inevitable, but we can not go back to Indian Astrology, nor depend on Islamic ways of counting the year, we need to be scientific to some degree in order to understand the life, else we are simply making a mockery of human development, so far.... love is On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 1:44 PM, anupam chakravartty wrote:a > The Indian left was not really leftist in its ideals as demonstrated in case > of Nandigram, in case of Chengkara in Kerela. Most of the trade unions have > been fractured and stand at the mercy of the AITUC or INTUC or Mazdoor > Sabha, which are nothing but an extention of corporate greed. Now in garb of > trade unionism, religious fanactism is peddled by union leaders to organise > workers > > Although, i agree that this election served as deterrent for BJP leaders > such as Modi. However, Varun Gandhi cashed in on his hate speech. Pilibhit, > where Hindus and Muslim carpenter used to work together would never be the > same. So even if t in totality you express your satisfaction over UPA's > performance, people such Varun Gandhi has managed to carve a place for > himself. Now just imagine this man in the Lok Sabha! > > FYI, the concept of opposing religious fanactism is not just from left. we > are talking about religious reformation so that behemoths such as  bajrang > dal, al-qaeda, ku klux klan and similar outfits loose their relevance. but > left's idea of keeping religions as a personal and on extremes banning > religions is extremely problemmatic. > > thanks anupam > > On 5/17/09, Inder Salim wrote: > >> yes, Modi, the killer Modi, the next PM in waiting, knows quite well >> how to take care of people like me, >> >> he must have improved on how to burn people more and more with less >> and less fire. >> and i predict now, that people like Varun Gandhi and Modi have no >> future in politics, if they paly this hate card too often. >> >> yes, Trade Unions for millions of Indian and many more in the world >> are like temples for of the masses. >> these unions have given them bread and butter, and in absence of Trade >> Unionism >> one can only imagine how much the cannibalistic greed of a corporate >> loves to devour .... >> >> the other benefit of living with the concept of Trade Union is that >> you develop some sensitivity towards the oppressed masses, the weaker >> sections of our society, which otherwise was not possible. >> >> Singing Bahajans, and following Mullah ji's  fundamentalist paths dont >> lead a common man to a firm destination. >> >> Religous Fanaticism has been rejected by people in this elections, >> The verdict is the endorsement of the the concept of Left, indirectly. >> >> how can the victorious congress negate that initiatives  made by the >> Left in the first place. >> >> With one exception of  MK Gandhi who in the congress party did not >> benefit from the convictions of the communists thought,. >> >> yes, still, the bad element in the congress is Right (religious ), and >> the good element is Left ( socialist/communist ), and the good >> elements dominates, right now, >> >> any doubts Mr. AR Kaul >> >> with love >> is >> >> >> . >> >> >> >> On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 1:45 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul >> wrote: >> > seems Inder Salim has been working in a navratan oil company and tired of >> > the left trade union :P How else would he have so much information about >> > Advaniji ? >> > >> > Don't worry Inder Sali, you will have your job; Modi is there still to >> take >> > care of you. >> > >> > Manali is a far dream still for you. >> > >> > On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 1:37 AM, Inder Salim >> wrote: >> > >> >> better than gratuity, ADvani ji might promote Nano car of Tata Ji >> >> >> >> and some advertise NAVRATTAN OIL, >> >> >> >>  i am sure  he will outwit AmitabBachan on that >> >> >> >> and earn more bucks, to  enjoy trout fish with red wine in Manali with >> >>  VajPAYEE Ji >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 12:27 AM, Pawan Durani >> >> wrote: >> >> > Great show by Congress ..... >> >> > >> >> > However the best thing about this election was the worst performance >> of >> >> Left >> >> > in last 40 years. >> >> > >> >> > Advani Ji now needs a peaceful retirement and perhaps may be rewarded >> >> with >> >> > Gratuity and other benefits..... >> >> > >> >> > Pawan >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 12:11 AM, Rakesh Iyer > >> >wrote: >> >> > >> >> >> Dear all >> >> >> >> >> >> I had gone out, so apologies (if required) for the delay. >> >> >> >> >> >> Unlike Anupam jee, I don't have problems with people changing their >> >> views >> >> >> provided they stick to it. So I won't comment on that. >> >> >> >> >> >> What I will comment on are some interesting thoughts. First of all, >> >> India >> >> >> has a parliamentary system where people choose their representatives >> on >> >> the >> >> >> first by post principle, and there are a number of factors at play. >> What >> >> is >> >> >> certainly not a factor (neither in 2004 nor in 2009 as CSDS surveys >> done >> >> by >> >> >> Yogendra Yadav repeatedly indicate) is the issue of the Prime >> Minister. >> >> >> >> >> >> Forget Advani or Manmohan Singh or Rahul Gandhi or Narendra Modi. >> Even >> >> if >> >> >> Lord Krishna, Lord Ram, Prophet Muhammad or Jesus Christ were to >> stand >> >> for >> >> >> the post of Prime Minister, it would hardly make an effect, simply >> >> because >> >> >> people don't vote for personalities as PM. The major issues before >> >> people >> >> >> are concerned with their livelihood, be it 'roti, kapda and makan', >> >> water, >> >> >> health (this means a good hospital with working people and working >> >> >> equipments in the village or nearby places), good connection to >> cities >> >> >> through roads, education, and in this particular issue, two more >> issues >> >> >> were >> >> >> important: inflation and security. >> >> >> >> >> >> So actually, the BJP did have issues to fight with: inflation and >> >> >> terrorism. >> >> >> Except that BJP doesn't have a great record in them either. >> >> >> >> >> >> As far as inflation is concerned, I can only remind of the 1998 >> >> elections >> >> >> in >> >> >> Delhi, Rajasthan and Madhya Pradesh, where BJP suffered a 440-KV >> shock >> >> on >> >> >> losing state elections. And as for terrorism, we all know how they >> >> fared. >> >> >> The Kandahar fiasco, the Parliament attack, the Godhra incident (I >> >> mention >> >> >> this here because the Gujarat BJP unit repeatedly mentioned this as >> an >> >> >> ISI-sponsored attack, so they can clarify on this. I mention it as an >> >> >> intelligence failure), the Akshardham temple attack, the Raghunath >> >> temple >> >> >> attack, the bomb blasts in Mulund and Ghatkopar, and so on. So before >> >> >> throwing stones at others, the BJP should look at its' own shallow >> >> record >> >> >> with respect to terror in the past. >> >> >> >> >> >> And on top of all this, then they have the foolishness in them to say >> >> that >> >> >> L.K. Advani is a strong leader. And to indicate this, they had >> posters >> >> >> showing Advani clenching his fists! Great! That way we could have put >> >> one >> >> >> of >> >> >> the wrestlers who had won a bronze medal for us in Olympics 2008 as >> the >> >> PM >> >> >> candidate! Nobody could have been stronger than that! >> >> >> >> >> >> Strength doesn't come by repeatedly saying that 'I am strong'. A >> person >> >> who >> >> >> is strong will never say that about himself; it's others who say that >> >> about >> >> >> him. Here we had Advani shooting off his own mouth about how strong >> he >> >> was. >> >> >> And people knew how to respond. >> >> >> >> >> >> Secondly, contrary to your statements Vedavati jee, the BJP hasn't >> done >> >> >> that >> >> >> well as expected. In MP, it was expected to win more than 20 seats. >> And >> >> >> Congress was not certainly expecting 10 seats which it won there. As >> for >> >> >> Rajasthan, BJP has been wiped out when compared to last election. >> Only >> >> >> Chhatisgarh and Gujarat are the states where BJP has done better than >> >> >> previous times, in addition to Jharkhand of course. >> >> >> >> >> >> Thirdly, you are right. BJP should have expanded their base. But base >> >> could >> >> >> have been expanded by throwing away Hindutva (which ironically brings >> to >> >> >> them supporters like you but alienates many), and trying to become a >> >> >> right-centrist party. People would have had no problems if BJP had no >> >> trust >> >> >> on Pakistan, wanted India to become a super-power, and had stated >> that >> >> they >> >> >> weren't embarassed on their Hindu roots. >> >> >> >> >> >> Instead, the BJP just seems hell bent on attacking minorities where >> and >> >> >> when >> >> >> they can (Kandhamal and Karnataka being best examples) and then wants >> >> >> Muslims and Christians to vote for them! How do they expect a Muslim >> >> woman >> >> >> to vote for them when under their reign, she was raped in the name of >> >> 'Jai >> >> >> Shree Ram' by activists related to the larger parivar to which the >> BJP >> >> >> belongs? >> >> >> >> >> >> Similarly on the issue of appeasement. It is right that the Congress >> and >> >> >> others have practiced Muslim appeasement. But does this mean Muslims >> >> should >> >> >> be punished? When Muslims haven't progressed, then it's the fault of >> the >> >> >> Congress. How are they being then 'pampered'? Vote bank politics is >> >> >> actually >> >> >> to disadvantage of Muslims, and the BJP should have come to their >> rescue >> >> by >> >> >> providing them development. Instead, the BJP gave them post-Godhra as >> >> gift. >> >> >> >> >> >> Fourth. Can Bipin jee inform me (or anybody else for that matter) as >> to >> >> the >> >> >> proceedings under NDA which point to RTI? I would be glad to know. >> >> >> >> >> >> Fifth. Swathi jee, I think you raised two vital points. I agree with >> you >> >> >> that it's not the Congress or the Left (do read this Bipin jee, this >> is >> >> for >> >> >> you too) which brought either the NREGA or the RTI, it's the social >> >> >> movements which brought them. And I appreciate the courage they >> showed >> >> in >> >> >> their movement and the pressure they exerted, which was accepted by >> the >> >> >> Left >> >> >> at very late stage, and finally this act was introduced. One must >> never >> >> >> forget the kind of pressure exerted by the Times of India-Economic >> >> >> Times-Ambani-English mainstream media-their elitist friends combine, >> to >> >> >> ensure the NREGA never got passed. >> >> >> >> >> >> But the larger point also remains that this govt did pass it. Would >> the >> >> NDA >> >> >> have ever passed it? You know better than me what the answer to that >> >> would >> >> >> be. Therefore, we must accept their small contribution to getting >> this >> >> act >> >> >> passed and appreciate it, though the first credit to it lies with all >> >> those >> >> >> who fought tooth and nail in the first place to get the act passed. >> >> >> >> >> >> And Bipin jee, the NREGA was brought through a social movement. >> Better >> >> go >> >> >> and find about it rather than cribbing about policies you don't know >> a >> >> >> thing >> >> >> about. And as for your infrastructural development, the people of >> India >> >> >> would want NREGA first rather than the Golden Quadrilateral. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> The second point Swathi jee has raised is about an elected PM. >> >> Personally, >> >> >> I >> >> >> would have liked Manmohan Singh jee to fight the election and win it. >> >> That >> >> >> would have silenced many people who always look upon him as the >> 'stooge >> >> of >> >> >> Sonia'. However, unlike others, I wouldn't feel so bad about it. The >> >> larger >> >> >> issue is always the livelihood of people, and while Sonia may not >> have >> >> the >> >> >> responsibilities of the PM, she has the responsibilities of ensuring >> her >> >> >> party wins elections. Therefore, even if the PM doesn't listen, she >> has >> >> to >> >> >> listen to the voice of India, as she had to in the case of NREGA and >> >> RTI. >> >> >> >> >> >> Therefore, I don't worry much whether Manmohan is elected or not. I >> >> though >> >> >> have another reason as to why a PM should be elected. >> >> >> >> >> >> When a PM like say Vajpayee gets elected and then becomes PM, he >> knows >> >> the >> >> >> ways and means to win elections. And therefore he equally knows when >> to >> >> >> start something, where to stop (why, where and when), where to set >> >> agendas >> >> >> and where to start working upon them. Manmohan I don't think has that >> >> >> political experience an elected PM have to manage his allies. This is >> >> clear >> >> >> from the way he reacted at different times to the nuclear deal. His >> >> >> reactions wouldn't have changed so much had he been an elected PM. >> >> Perhaps >> >> >> he could have handled the Left better in that case. >> >> >> >> >> >> But again this is only my speculation. It may be true, or it may be >> >> false. >> >> >> >> >> >> And democracy is not about elections. It is about giving rights to >> >> citizens >> >> >> and ensure that they are indeed actually provided those rights. So an >> >> >> elected PM or not is not a big issue. >> >> >> >> >> >> What is are the rights of people to secure their livelihood. >> >> >> >> >> >> If the BJP gains this huge lesson from this election, I would be the >> >> most >> >> >> happy person on this planet. And my frustration at this not happening >> is >> >> >> what made me write in a nasty way, for which I am sorry. I would not >> >> repeat >> >> >> that again. >> >> >> >> >> >> And if the BJP doesn't learn it, then we need another party to come >> at >> >> >> centre to fight against Congress and displace BJP from its pole. >> >> >> >> >> >> And finally, the last word from one of my friends who also happens to >> be >> >> a >> >> >> member of this list: >> >> >> >> >> >> The BJP lost because the revenues obtained through growth are spent >> only >> >> to >> >> >> further growth. The Congress won because it spent partially the >> revenues >> >> >> obtained through growth to bring up the poor to above-subsistence >> level >> >> and >> >> >> contributed in some measure to equitable development in this manner. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Regards >> >> >> >> >> >> Rakesh >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> >>  List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> >> > _________________________________________ >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Aditya Raj Kaul >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sun May 17 14:53:07 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 02:23:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Support for Swat refugees Message-ID: <523567.91466.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Yousuf   It is admirable how the Pakistanis, rich and poor, young and old get gravitated towards 'relief' whenever there is a 'calamity' in Pakistan of which there have been many.   Kshmendra  --- On Sat, 5/16/09, Yousuf wrote: From: Yousuf Subject: [Reader-list] Support for Swat refugees To: "sarai sarai" Date: Saturday, May 16, 2009, 9:55 PM Support for Swat Refugees http://www.danka.com.pk/swatrelief.php Several hundred thousand people fled the war zone of Swat and nearby areas. The local population has accommodated a majority of these refugees, as per their customs, in their homes, hujras, and schools. Many of these refugees are fed and taken care of by the locals and are not yet 'registered'. The refugees in the camps are mostly those who could not be accommodated in the already overcrowded structures. (Meaning, the actual figures are probably much higher). The government has problems providing infrastructure and coordination. The Internally Displaced People (IDPs) of Swat need support of their country(wo)men in these difficult times. Please come forward and play your part in helping them make through to a better future. Please note that Danka is voluntarily providing the following information only for wider public awareness on donation options. Danka team shall keep adding more information on other NGOs and organizations directly involved in helping the IDPs. Danka has no official or unofficial arrangement with any of the listed organizations on this page and urge you to make informed decision on your donations and contributions. The best way is to call the organizations and inquire about their scope of activity and how you can help. Even spreading the information for various donation options is a contribution on your part. What can you do? We provide here an alphabetical order list of some NGO’s working for relief that you can contact and support. Danka is not responsible for the work of these NGOs - please go through their portfolio and decide yourself whom do you want to support. Please also drop in comments and update us with more names and contacts. Al-Khidmat Foundation http://al-khidmatfoundation.org/donate-here.php Edhi Foundation http://www.edhifoundation.com/contact.asp Islamic Relief Worldwide https://donations.islamic-relief.com/signin.asp Pakistan Red Crescent Society http://www.prcs.org.pk/donation.asp Pakistan IDP Team http://pakistanidps.wordpress.com/ Sahara for Life Trust http://www.saharaforlife.org/donate.htm Sungi Development Foundation http://www.pacenetworkpk.com/donation_details.asp UM Healthcare Trust http://www.umtrust.org/donate UN High Commission for Refugees: Global and Online Donors http://www.unhcr.org/emergency/pakistan/global_landing.html For donations locally the UNHCR will shortly setup a page for engaging the general public. About Donations and Development Work Our own experiences in the earthquake relief (some Danka members were working in Kashmir for several months) have shown that the best way to help is to support trustworthy individuals who work closely on site with the people. Basically there are two forms of help - immediate help required as food/medical support/accommodation, etc. and sustainable support as building up local infrastructure, employment, coordination between the locals, etc. If you donate then you take responsibility that the money or goods you kindly give also fulfill the purpose. Please take this fact serious and control that work is being done as presented by the individuals or NGOs you support. A comment from a person who just came from the area is: "Give relief goods/cash ONLY to those who can personally deliver or trustworthy established organizations. It is a first hand experience from the earthquake and past few days that 'humanity' is at its best in such situations, especially when it comes to Pakistani Muslims (Please accept the truth!). Very few things reach to the needy. While most of us are satisfied by contributing to the collection points, in reality it doesn't work that way. Don't get overwhelmed by the slogans and banners! Just act wisely. Please supervise your donations as good as possible - you can not fully trust even those who are working at the camps." Thank you for your support!       _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rajenradhika at vsnl.net Sun May 17 14:47:45 2009 From: rajenradhika at vsnl.net (rajenradhika at vsnl.net) Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 14:17:45 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear All, the results of elections have a clear message to all the political parties, to shun the politics of hate, revenge and avenging of the past percieved injustices, to live in present, with peace and harmony. The profile of the voter, presents the true diverse cultures, faiths, traditions but still unity in that diverse diaspora, the unity for the nation, stability for the nation.The voter has again shown the maturity that he is never credited for, by not GIVING a single party even a simple majority, but has given a national party the mandate to govern the nation with the true spirit of constitution.The power to govern also conjoins the responsibilty to the ruling combine, so tempered the power with diverse parties such as regional parties like DMK, NCP to have a sobering effect if power corrupts to give a wake up call. It is important to note that along with the voters average age of around 62 years, of post independent children of the nation, anew blood of average age group of 22 to 35 years has given the green signal to the life of peace and harmony and decent burial of the past baggage, of hate, prejudices and revenge of the past bygone era.Some may ask me why not the age group of 18 to 21 years in the voter profile, with all humility, I admit my observation is that age group was kiddish, not actively participated in the democratic process with lame excuses, such as four days of holiday binge, exams, so no time etc.Some girls went to the extent of telling me, that they wanted to vote, but heat of summer made them think otherwise.! Now about the electioneering itself, the biggest percieved wrong that I could make out was the acrimony generated by Advani of manmohan Singh being "weak" with Advanis' photo in media in a gym, perhaps what was lost was the fact that for a leader, what is required is mental toughness, not physical fitness which is available to them at national cost in AIIMS. Further after years of harping about the issue being weak, when Mr, Singh replied Advani of his answer, it was Advani who meekly surrendered , all that he had to say was the fact that, as a PM, he is nominated PM, and hence the post of PM is nominated category has lost the high profile it always had when held by an elected MP. But Advani chose to get hurt and retired has shown that he is mentally not strong for an intellectual to stand by what he has said, he did not even have the courtesy to apologise for the personal comments made, thus came the Modi factor, which as all voters would think twice as to do we need inclusive growth and ghetts growth in the nation. Development which is not inclusive is not acceptable to the voter of the present generation. The results have also has proved that the performing assets in parliament will get voted for performance, in broad spectrum of all parties, those who have not performed have as a rule, lost the elections, be it a Manvendra Singh of BJP, or Mani Shankar Iyer or Renuka Choudhary of Congress who were more hot air and sound bytes for tv cameras. Vasundhara Raje Scindia who developed liking for state exchequer to buy the aircrafts and cushy home office , with her fuedal mindset has been again snubbed by the voter acutely. Further, another important issue to be noted is moral policing even though became sensational song and dance number for tv cameras, item numbers of anchors joined the loosepink chaddi brigade, this is purely a private matter of individual choice as per the voting seen in Mangalore and Udupi where BJP has won better margins than last time inspite of all the item numbers in media. No youngster would like to have any interference by anyone in his personal life and style of living, moral policing is also not acceptable, but the sensationalisation and hype by media was also not acceptable to the voter, as Renuka in her backyard lost the votes for her item number.Privately, many youngsters did not want to be seen expsed on tv cameras, as it was affecting their life and social status. The goon brigades of all faiths were summarily rejected by the young voters, as how they have their personal life was their matter of choice and none had any role to play, be it media or moral br igades, for that is the individual freedom to live life to best of the knowledge they have had of life. The important issue to be noted is no party has even simpe majority, which reflects the mind of the voter, as he has seen the brute majority and its effect on voter, be it in Nandigram, Singur or anywhere, when brute majority turns autocratic, the present youngsters who voted must be aware of the emergncy days, violence when the leaders are arrested, killed, it is the voter who gets maimed and killed as sycophants want to prove the loyalty to the successor, of their "honesty" and "loyalty" to the next power center.The results have again put on caution, the PM and his cabinet, that if you perform you are in governance otherwise......, the party in opposition will be having a next chance to correct themselves and take the rule of laws over to govern. Every success has a failure tagged along with it, the lost one can always be successful, if the party understands the writing on the wall. The varun episode gave many a voters a nightmare of his fathers' behaviour of compulsory sterilsation, turkmangate demolitions, prejudices of the power corrupt. It is a open caution to the parties in power in all the states and the central governance that unless performed well, the other parties will be rady to be in power to rule of laws. BJP has to understand this and fine tune its work in the nation, has to stop being rhetoric, and accept with all grace that its electioneering went hooribly off focus from the national issues of price rise, essential coomodities and farmers suicides and it had no plans or did not elucidate to the voter of the plans for future. Regards, Rajen. PS: As my id in google has been compromised, I am using the id in yahoo,-- rajen_uppinangadi at yahoo.co.in List manager, this is request to include me in the list so that I may have the pleasure of having thoughtful exchanges with members of the list. Thank you. ----- Original Message ----- From: reader-list-request at sarai.net Date: Sunday, May 17, 2009 12:59 pm Subject: reader-list Digest, Vol 70, Issue 90 To: reader-list at sarai.net > Send reader-list mailing list submissions to > reader-list at sarai.net > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > reader-list-request at sarai.net > > You can reach the person managing the list at > reader-list-owner at sarai.net > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Election Forecast (Santhosh Kumar) > 2. CONGRESSULATIONS (bipin) > 3. Re: Election Forecast (Inder Salim) > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 12:29:04 +0530 > From: Santhosh Kumar > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Election Forecast > To: Aditya Raj Kaul > Cc: sarai list > Message-ID: > <19d498870905162359l63570816gacfdc68e2a4ba9 at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Thank Sree Ram, BJP didn't come to power, otherwise Aditya Raj Kaul > Ji would > have come personally with a sword or trishul to deal with with > people like > Inder Salim Ji and other non Sangh parivar people in this list > > > On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 1:45 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul > wrote: > > seems Inder Salim has been working in a navratan oil company and > tired of > > the left trade union :P How else would he have so much > information about > > Advaniji ? > > > > Don't worry Inder Sali, you will have your job; Modi is there > still to take > > care of you. > > > > Manali is a far dream still for you. > > > > On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 1:37 AM, Inder Salim > wrote: > > > > > better than gratuity, ADvani ji might promote Nano car of Tata Ji > > > > > > and some advertise NAVRATTAN OIL, > > > > > > i am sure he will outwit AmitabBachan on that > > > > > > and earn more bucks, to enjoy trout fish with red wine in > Manali with > > > VajPAYEE Ji > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 12:27 AM, Pawan Durani > > > wrote: > > > > Great show by Congress ..... > > > > > > > > However the best thing about this election was the worst > performance of > > > Left > > > > in last 40 years. > > > > > > > > Advani Ji now needs a peaceful retirement and perhaps may be > rewarded> > with > > > > Gratuity and other benefits..... > > > > > > > > Pawan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 12:11 AM, Rakesh Iyer > > >wrote: > > > > > > > >> Dear all > > > >> > > > >> I had gone out, so apologies (if required) for the delay. > > > >> > > > >> Unlike Anupam jee, I don't have problems with people > changing their > > > views > > > >> provided they stick to it. So I won't comment on that. > > > >> > > > >> What I will comment on are some interesting thoughts. First > of all, > > > India > > > >> has a parliamentary system where people choose their > representatives> on > > > the > > > >> first by post principle, and there are a number of factors > at play. > > What > > > is > > > >> certainly not a factor (neither in 2004 nor in 2009 as CSDS > surveys> done > > > by > > > >> Yogendra Yadav repeatedly indicate) is the issue of the Prime > > Minister. > > > >> > > > >> Forget Advani or Manmohan Singh or Rahul Gandhi or Narendra > Modi. Even > > > if > > > >> Lord Krishna, Lord Ram, Prophet Muhammad or Jesus Christ > were to stand > > > for > > > >> the post of Prime Minister, it would hardly make an effect, > simply> > because > > > >> people don't vote for personalities as PM. The major issues > before> > people > > > >> are concerned with their livelihood, be it 'roti, kapda and > makan',> > water, > > > >> health (this means a good hospital with working people and > working> > >> equipments in the village or nearby places), good > connection to cities > > > >> through roads, education, and in this particular issue, two > more> issues > > > >> were > > > >> important: inflation and security. > > > >> > > > >> So actually, the BJP did have issues to fight with: > inflation and > > > >> terrorism. > > > >> Except that BJP doesn't have a great record in them either. > > > >> > > > >> As far as inflation is concerned, I can only remind of the 1998 > > > elections > > > >> in > > > >> Delhi, Rajasthan and Madhya Pradesh, where BJP suffered a > 440-KV shock > > > on > > > >> losing state elections. And as for terrorism, we all know > how they > > > fared. > > > >> The Kandahar fiasco, the Parliament attack, the Godhra > incident (I > > > mention > > > >> this here because the Gujarat BJP unit repeatedly mentioned > this as an > > > >> ISI-sponsored attack, so they can clarify on this. I mention > it as an > > > >> intelligence failure), the Akshardham temple attack, the > Raghunath> > temple > > > >> attack, the bomb blasts in Mulund and Ghatkopar, and so on. > So before > > > >> throwing stones at others, the BJP should look at its' own > shallow> > record > > > >> with respect to terror in the past. > > > >> > > > >> And on top of all this, then they have the foolishness in > them to say > > > that > > > >> L.K. Advani is a strong leader. And to indicate this, they > had posters > > > >> showing Advani clenching his fists! Great! That way we could > have put > > > one > > > >> of > > > >> the wrestlers who had won a bronze medal for us in Olympics > 2008 as > > the > > > PM > > > >> candidate! Nobody could have been stronger than that! > > > >> > > > >> Strength doesn't come by repeatedly saying that 'I am > strong'. A > > person > > > who > > > >> is strong will never say that about himself; it's others who > say that > > > about > > > >> him. Here we had Advani shooting off his own mouth about how > strong he > > > was. > > > >> And people knew how to respond. > > > >> > > > >> Secondly, contrary to your statements Vedavati jee, the BJP > hasn't> done > > > >> that > > > >> well as expected. In MP, it was expected to win more than 20 > seats.> And > > > >> Congress was not certainly expecting 10 seats which it won > there. As > > for > > > >> Rajasthan, BJP has been wiped out when compared to last > election. Only > > > >> Chhatisgarh and Gujarat are the states where BJP has done > better than > > > >> previous times, in addition to Jharkhand of course. > > > >> > > > >> Thirdly, you are right. BJP should have expanded their base. > But base > > > could > > > >> have been expanded by throwing away Hindutva (which > ironically brings > > to > > > >> them supporters like you but alienates many), and trying to > become a > > > >> right-centrist party. People would have had no problems if > BJP had no > > > trust > > > >> on Pakistan, wanted India to become a super-power, and had > stated that > > > they > > > >> weren't embarassed on their Hindu roots. > > > >> > > > >> Instead, the BJP just seems hell bent on attacking > minorities where > > and > > > >> when > > > >> they can (Kandhamal and Karnataka being best examples) and > then wants > > > >> Muslims and Christians to vote for them! How do they expect > a Muslim > > > woman > > > >> to vote for them when under their reign, she was raped in > the name of > > > 'Jai > > > >> Shree Ram' by activists related to the larger parivar to > which the BJP > > > >> belongs? > > > >> > > > >> Similarly on the issue of appeasement. It is right that the > Congress> and > > > >> others have practiced Muslim appeasement. But does this mean > Muslims> > should > > > >> be punished? When Muslims haven't progressed, then it's the > fault of > > the > > > >> Congress. How are they being then 'pampered'? Vote bank > politics is > > > >> actually > > > >> to disadvantage of Muslims, and the BJP should have come to > their> rescue > > > by > > > >> providing them development. Instead, the BJP gave them post- > Godhra as > > > gift. > > > >> > > > >> Fourth. Can Bipin jee inform me (or anybody else for that > matter) as > > to > > > the > > > >> proceedings under NDA which point to RTI? I would be glad to > know.> > >> > > > >> Fifth. Swathi jee, I think you raised two vital points. I > agree with > > you > > > >> that it's not the Congress or the Left (do read this Bipin > jee, this > > is > > > for > > > >> you too) which brought either the NREGA or the RTI, it's the > social> > >> movements which brought them. And I appreciate the > courage they showed > > > in > > > >> their movement and the pressure they exerted, which was > accepted by > > the > > > >> Left > > > >> at very late stage, and finally this act was introduced. One > must> never > > > >> forget the kind of pressure exerted by the Times of India- > Economic> > >> Times-Ambani-English mainstream media-their elitist > friends combine, > > to > > > >> ensure the NREGA never got passed. > > > >> > > > >> But the larger point also remains that this govt did pass > it. Would > > the > > > NDA > > > >> have ever passed it? You know better than me what the answer > to that > > > would > > > >> be. Therefore, we must accept their small contribution to > getting this > > > act > > > >> passed and appreciate it, though the first credit to it lies > with all > > > those > > > >> who fought tooth and nail in the first place to get the act > passed.> > >> > > > >> And Bipin jee, the NREGA was brought through a social > movement. Better > > > go > > > >> and find about it rather than cribbing about policies you > don't know a > > > >> thing > > > >> about. And as for your infrastructural development, the > people of > > India > > > >> would want NREGA first rather than the Golden Quadrilateral. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> The second point Swathi jee has raised is about an elected PM. > > > Personally, > > > >> I > > > >> would have liked Manmohan Singh jee to fight the election > and win it. > > > That > > > >> would have silenced many people who always look upon him as the > > 'stooge > > > of > > > >> Sonia'. However, unlike others, I wouldn't feel so bad about > it. The > > > larger > > > >> issue is always the livelihood of people, and while Sonia > may not have > > > the > > > >> responsibilities of the PM, she has the responsibilities of > ensuring> her > > > >> party wins elections. Therefore, even if the PM doesn't > listen, she > > has > > > to > > > >> listen to the voice of India, as she had to in the case of > NREGA and > > > RTI. > > > >> > > > >> Therefore, I don't worry much whether Manmohan is elected or > not. I > > > though > > > >> have another reason as to why a PM should be elected. > > > >> > > > >> When a PM like say Vajpayee gets elected and then becomes > PM, he knows > > > the > > > >> ways and means to win elections. And therefore he equally > knows when > > to > > > >> start something, where to stop (why, where and when), where > to set > > > agendas > > > >> and where to start working upon them. Manmohan I don't think > has that > > > >> political experience an elected PM have to manage his > allies. This is > > > clear > > > >> from the way he reacted at different times to the nuclear > deal. His > > > >> reactions wouldn't have changed so much had he been an > elected PM. > > > Perhaps > > > >> he could have handled the Left better in that case. > > > >> > > > >> But again this is only my speculation. It may be true, or it > may be > > > false. > > > >> > > > >> And democracy is not about elections. It is about giving > rights to > > > citizens > > > >> and ensure that they are indeed actually provided those > rights. So an > > > >> elected PM or not is not a big issue. > > > >> > > > >> What is are the rights of people to secure their livelihood. > > > >> > > > >> If the BJP gains this huge lesson from this election, I > would be the > > > most > > > >> happy person on this planet. And my frustration at this not > happening> is > > > >> what made me write in a nasty way, for which I am sorry. I > would not > > > repeat > > > >> that again. > > > >> > > > >> And if the BJP doesn't learn it, then we need another party > to come at > > > >> centre to fight against Congress and displace BJP from its > pole.> > >> > > > >> And finally, the last word from one of my friends who also > happens to > > be > > > a > > > >> member of this list: > > > >> > > > >> The BJP lost because the revenues obtained through growth > are spent > > only > > > to > > > >> further growth. The Congress won because it spent partially the > > revenues > > > >> obtained through growth to bring up the poor to above- > subsistence> level > > > and > > > >> contributed in some measure to equitable development in this > manner.> > >> > > > >> > > > >> Regards > > > >> > > > >> Rakesh > > > >> _________________________________________ > > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > >> Critiques & Collaborations > > > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with> > >> subscribe in the subject header. > > > >> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > >> List archive: > > > >> > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with> > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list> > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 12:42:16 +0530 > From: bipin > Subject: [Reader-list] CONGRESSULATIONS > To: sarai-list , c-positive group > > Cc: webmaster at bjp.org, cpim at vsnl.com > Message-ID: <008001c9d6be$d2059000$0201a8c0 at limo> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > Congratulations to Congress. Well done Manmohansingh, Sonia, Rahul. > > Manmohanji, without electing as MP you made history to be PM again > from back door. Perhaps voter like your generosity, honesty, > simplicity (which is lacking in most of the politician) leads to > the victory path. Now you have got golden chance to prove yourself > as stronger PM which was shown by you in only case of nuclear > agreement. Also its golden chance for you to keep Chidambaram and > Pawar out of finance and agricultural ministry as they were totally > failure in this front and allowed to increase prices of essential > commodity for their selfish motto. It is little wonder also that > voter, even poor voter has not considered this point while voting. > It is good fortune and stars for congress. Good Luck. > > Congrats Soniaji and your team, backdoor strategists for this > victory. However, it is lollipop and even you have not expected > such huge win this time as well as in 2004 also. Both win proved > very lucky for you and this time you are free to work on real > development work without hindrance and pressure tactics from allies. > > Congrats Rahulji. Youth people has massly voted to your youth > appeal. This is the real reason for congress win. Since it was > direct comparison with 80 year old Advani. Keep it up. Grab this > golden opportunity with some real developmental work to carry out > instead of going to the vote bank politics. > > Consolation to Advani. You are very good person, good at heart but > late in your mission. Your age was the biggest hindrance and did > not get mass appeal against youth. BJP should rethink and encourage > youth. Also people want BJP to do constructive opposition role, > which was lacking many cases last time and this is one reason for > you to voted out. This is punishment for you. So perform the > constructive opposition role and you will be benefited definitely > in the near future. > > Consolation to Communists. Its real time to retrospect communists > themselves and think on the direction of real development and come > out of their labor union politics, naxalites backing, US hatred (I > am not saying US is right all the way, but what is their good we > must adopt it), unnecessary minority appeasement. > > I salute voter, who shown great maturity by electing one of the > national party for steady and healthy progress. Voters has > experienced two coalition rule of NDA and UPA and noticed > regional/left parties behavior and made up their mind this time to > limit the regional parties. Congratulation to voter by diminishing > regional party and stop them taking undue advantage by pressure > tactics from politics and by that way saved the huge money which > was wasted by horse trading. > > UP and Bihar voters shown real maturity this time and they cut down > all criminal MPs were there in last tenure. They did not got > permission to contest the election and all have came up with their > wives to contest, but they all were defeated this time. This is the > real difference what we need and I am sure UP and Bihar will be on > the track of development in the very near future. > > thanks > BIPIN > > N.B Could not trace congress mail address. If anyone can give > please inform me. > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 12:57:34 +0530 > From: Inder Salim > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Election Forecast > To: reader-list > Message-ID: > <47e122a70905170027u25e0944ewce405090a2bfdf06 at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > yes, Modi, the killer Modi, the next PM in waiting, knows quite well > how to take care of people like me, > > he must have improved on how to burn people more and more with less > and less fire. > and i predict now, that people like Varun Gandhi and Modi have no > future in politics, if they paly this hate card too often. > > yes, Trade Unions for millions of Indian and many more in the world > are like temples for of the masses. > these unions have given them bread and butter, and in absence of > Trade Unionism > one can only imagine how much the cannibalistic greed of a corporate > loves to devour .... > > the other benefit of living with the concept of Trade Union is that > you develop some sensitivity towards the oppressed masses, the weaker > sections of our society, which otherwise was not possible. > > Singing Bahajans, and following Mullah ji's fundamentalist paths dont > lead a common man to a firm destination. > > Religous Fanaticism has been rejected by people in this elections, > The verdict is the endorsement of the the concept of Left, indirectly. > > how can the victorious congress negate that initiatives made by the > Left in the first place. > > With one exception of MK Gandhi who in the congress party did not > benefit from the convictions of the communists thought,. > > yes, still, the bad element in the congress is Right (religious ), and > the good element is Left ( socialist/communist ), and the good > elements dominates, right now, > > any doubts Mr. AR Kaul > > with love > is > > > . > > > > On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 1:45 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul > wrote: > > seems Inder Salim has been working in a navratan oil company and > tired of > > the left trade union :P How else would he have so much > information about > > Advaniji ? > > > > Don't worry Inder Sali, you will have your job; Modi is there > still to take > > care of you. > > > > Manali is a far dream still for you. > > > > On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 1:37 AM, Inder Salim > wrote: > > > >> better than gratuity, ADvani ji might promote Nano car of Tata Ji > >> > >> and some advertise NAVRATTAN OIL, > >> > >>  i am sure  he will outwit AmitabBachan on that > >> > >> and earn more bucks, to  enjoy trout fish with red wine in > Manali with > >>  VajPAYEE Ji > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 12:27 AM, Pawan Durani > >> wrote: > >> > Great show by Congress ..... > >> > > >> > However the best thing about this election was the worst > performance of > >> Left > >> > in last 40 years. > >> > > >> > Advani Ji now needs a peaceful retirement and perhaps may be > rewarded>> with > >> > Gratuity and other benefits..... > >> > > >> > Pawan > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 12:11 AM, Rakesh Iyer > > >wrote: > >> > > >> >> Dear all > >> >> > >> >> I had gone out, so apologies (if required) for the delay. > >> >> > >> >> Unlike Anupam jee, I don't have problems with people changing > their>> views > >> >> provided they stick to it. So I won't comment on that. > >> >> > >> >> What I will comment on are some interesting thoughts. First > of all, > >> India > >> >> has a parliamentary system where people choose their > representatives on > >> the > >> >> first by post principle, and there are a number of factors at > play. What > >> is > >> >> certainly not a factor (neither in 2004 nor in 2009 as CSDS > surveys done > >> by > >> >> Yogendra Yadav repeatedly indicate) is the issue of the Prime > Minister.>> >> > >> >> Forget Advani or Manmohan Singh or Rahul Gandhi or Narendra > Modi. Even > >> if > >> >> Lord Krishna, Lord Ram, Prophet Muhammad or Jesus Christ were > to stand > >> for > >> >> the post of Prime Minister, it would hardly make an effect, > simply>> because > >> >> people don't vote for personalities as PM. The major issues > before>> people > >> >> are concerned with their livelihood, be it 'roti, kapda and > makan',>> water, > >> >> health (this means a good hospital with working people and > working>> >> equipments in the village or nearby places), good > connection to cities > >> >> through roads, education, and in this particular issue, two > more issues > >> >> were > >> >> important: inflation and security. > >> >> > >> >> So actually, the BJP did have issues to fight with: inflation > and>> >> terrorism. > >> >> Except that BJP doesn't have a great record in them either. > >> >> > >> >> As far as inflation is concerned, I can only remind of the 1998 > >> elections > >> >> in > >> >> Delhi, Rajasthan and Madhya Pradesh, where BJP suffered a 440- > KV shock > >> on > >> >> losing state elections. And as for terrorism, we all know how > they>> fared. > >> >> The Kandahar fiasco, the Parliament attack, the Godhra > incident (I > >> mention > >> >> this here because the Gujarat BJP unit repeatedly mentioned > this as an > >> >> ISI-sponsored attack, so they can clarify on this. I mention > it as an > >> >> intelligence failure), the Akshardham temple attack, the > Raghunath>> temple > >> >> attack, the bomb blasts in Mulund and Ghatkopar, and so on. > So before > >> >> throwing stones at others, the BJP should look at its' own > shallow>> record > >> >> with respect to terror in the past. > >> >> > >> >> And on top of all this, then they have the foolishness in > them to say > >> that > >> >> L.K. Advani is a strong leader. And to indicate this, they > had posters > >> >> showing Advani clenching his fists! Great! That way we could > have put > >> one > >> >> of > >> >> the wrestlers who had won a bronze medal for us in Olympics > 2008 as the > >> PM > >> >> candidate! Nobody could have been stronger than that! > >> >> > >> >> Strength doesn't come by repeatedly saying that 'I am > strong'. A person > >> who > >> >> is strong will never say that about himself; it's others who > say that > >> about > >> >> him. Here we had Advani shooting off his own mouth about how > strong he > >> was. > >> >> And people knew how to respond. > >> >> > >> >> Secondly, contrary to your statements Vedavati jee, the BJP > hasn't done > >> >> that > >> >> well as expected. In MP, it was expected to win more than 20 > seats. And > >> >> Congress was not certainly expecting 10 seats which it won > there. As for > >> >> Rajasthan, BJP has been wiped out when compared to last > election. Only > >> >> Chhatisgarh and Gujarat are the states where BJP has done > better than > >> >> previous times, in addition to Jharkhand of course. > >> >> > >> >> Thirdly, you are right. BJP should have expanded their base. > But base > >> could > >> >> have been expanded by throwing away Hindutva (which > ironically brings to > >> >> them supporters like you but alienates many), and trying to > become a > >> >> right-centrist party. People would have had no problems if > BJP had no > >> trust > >> >> on Pakistan, wanted India to become a super-power, and had > stated that > >> they > >> >> weren't embarassed on their Hindu roots. > >> >> > >> >> Instead, the BJP just seems hell bent on attacking minorities > where and > >> >> when > >> >> they can (Kandhamal and Karnataka being best examples) and > then wants > >> >> Muslims and Christians to vote for them! How do they expect a > Muslim>> woman > >> >> to vote for them when under their reign, she was raped in the > name of > >> 'Jai > >> >> Shree Ram' by activists related to the larger parivar to > which the BJP > >> >> belongs? > >> >> > >> >> Similarly on the issue of appeasement. It is right that the > Congress and > >> >> others have practiced Muslim appeasement. But does this mean > Muslims>> should > >> >> be punished? When Muslims haven't progressed, then it's the > fault of the > >> >> Congress. How are they being then 'pampered'? Vote bank > politics is > >> >> actually > >> >> to disadvantage of Muslims, and the BJP should have come to > their rescue > >> by > >> >> providing them development. Instead, the BJP gave them post- > Godhra as > >> gift. > >> >> > >> >> Fourth. Can Bipin jee inform me (or anybody else for that > matter) as to > >> the > >> >> proceedings under NDA which point to RTI? I would be glad to > know.>> >> > >> >> Fifth. Swathi jee, I think you raised two vital points. I > agree with you > >> >> that it's not the Congress or the Left (do read this Bipin > jee, this is > >> for > >> >> you too) which brought either the NREGA or the RTI, it's the > social>> >> movements which brought them. And I appreciate the > courage they showed > >> in > >> >> their movement and the pressure they exerted, which was > accepted by the > >> >> Left > >> >> at very late stage, and finally this act was introduced. One > must never > >> >> forget the kind of pressure exerted by the Times of India- > Economic>> >> Times-Ambani-English mainstream media-their elitist > friends combine, to > >> >> ensure the NREGA never got passed. > >> >> > >> >> But the larger point also remains that this govt did pass it. > Would the > >> NDA > >> >> have ever passed it? You know better than me what the answer > to that > >> would > >> >> be. Therefore, we must accept their small contribution to > getting this > >> act > >> >> passed and appreciate it, though the first credit to it lies > with all > >> those > >> >> who fought tooth and nail in the first place to get the act > passed.>> >> > >> >> And Bipin jee, the NREGA was brought through a social > movement. Better > >> go > >> >> and find about it rather than cribbing about policies you > don't know a > >> >> thing > >> >> about. And as for your infrastructural development, the > people of India > >> >> would want NREGA first rather than the Golden Quadrilateral. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> The second point Swathi jee has raised is about an elected PM. > >> Personally, > >> >> I > >> >> would have liked Manmohan Singh jee to fight the election and > win it. > >> That > >> >> would have silenced many people who always look upon him as > the 'stooge > >> of > >> >> Sonia'. However, unlike others, I wouldn't feel so bad about > it. The > >> larger > >> >> issue is always the livelihood of people, and while Sonia may > not have > >> the > >> >> responsibilities of the PM, she has the responsibilities of > ensuring her > >> >> party wins elections. Therefore, even if the PM doesn't > listen, she has > >> to > >> >> listen to the voice of India, as she had to in the case of > NREGA and > >> RTI. > >> >> > >> >> Therefore, I don't worry much whether Manmohan is elected or > not. I > >> though > >> >> have another reason as to why a PM should be elected. > >> >> > >> >> When a PM like say Vajpayee gets elected and then becomes PM, > he knows > >> the > >> >> ways and means to win elections. And therefore he equally > knows when to > >> >> start something, where to stop (why, where and when), where > to set > >> agendas > >> >> and where to start working upon them. Manmohan I don't think > has that > >> >> political experience an elected PM have to manage his allies. > This is > >> clear > >> >> from the way he reacted at different times to the nuclear > deal. His > >> >> reactions wouldn't have changed so much had he been an > elected PM. > >> Perhaps > >> >> he could have handled the Left better in that case. > >> >> > >> >> But again this is only my speculation. It may be true, or it > may be > >> false. > >> >> > >> >> And democracy is not about elections. It is about giving > rights to > >> citizens > >> >> and ensure that they are indeed actually provided those > rights. So an > >> >> elected PM or not is not a big issue. > >> >> > >> >> What is are the rights of people to secure their livelihood. > >> >> > >> >> If the BJP gains this huge lesson from this election, I would > be the > >> most > >> >> happy person on this planet. And my frustration at this not > happening is > >> >> what made me write in a nasty way, for which I am sorry. I > would not > >> repeat > >> >> that again. > >> >> > >> >> And if the BJP doesn't learn it, then we need another party > to come at > >> >> centre to fight against Congress and displace BJP from its pole. > >> >> > >> >> And finally, the last word from one of my friends who also > happens to be > >> a > >> >> member of this list: > >> >> > >> >> The BJP lost because the revenues obtained through growth are > spent only > >> to > >> >> further growth. The Congress won because it spent partially > the revenues > >> >> obtained through growth to bring up the poor to above- > subsistence level > >> and > >> >> contributed in some measure to equitable development in this > manner.>> >> > >> >> > >> >> Regards > >> >> > >> >> Rakesh > >> >> _________________________________________ > >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with>> >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> >> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> >>  List archive: > >> >> > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list>> > List archive: > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> > >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > reader-list mailing list > reader-list at sarai.net > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > End of reader-list Digest, Vol 70, Issue 90 > ******************************************* > From akmalik45 at yahoo.com Sun May 17 18:41:32 2009 From: akmalik45 at yahoo.com (A.K. Malik) Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 06:11:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Election Forecast Message-ID: <63439.46702.qm@web39102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Rakeshji, I just want to bring to your knowledge one of the day-to-day instances which reinforces the view that some special treatment is meted out based on religion which is against our Constitution. In Delhi schools all girl childern are given free uniform and free books. However Muslim girls are given an addtional sum of Rs 300 irrespective of their parents' income. So you have a Hindu girl whose father is a rehriwala and is hardly able to meet his daily expenses and another Muslim girl whsoe father is well off but she still gets money because she is Muslim. What will you call this type of Govt sponsered muslim appeasement. Had a similar thing been done in Gujarat for Hindus everybody would have been after Modi's blood. (A.K.MALIK) --- On Sun, 5/17/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > From: Rakesh Iyer > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Election Forecast > To: "anupam chakravartty" > Cc: "sarai list" > Date: Sunday, May 17, 2009, 2:05 PM > Dear Kshamendra > > I think my comment can or may be seen as racist by some and > non-racist by > others. It depends on your sight. and understanding. > > My comment was not on the Gujarati society at whole, but on > those who elect > BJP on the reason that Muslims have to be taught their > lesson and that > Hindus are weak and effete. It's not a comment on those who > vote for BJP due > to progress, their development, or petty or personal gains. > For them we can > think and discuss differently. > > However I used both 'the Gujarati society'  and 'a > section of the Gujarati > society' simply because either of them may be true. And if > it hurts > Gujaratis, they should actually introspect on why Modi gets > elected for > certain reasons in Gujarat, and the very same reasons > ensure that BJP never > gets power at the Centre. (like Modi's antics, his > high-vitriolic speeches > and so on, which at national level ensure NDA's defeat time > and again). And > they should ponder whether the value systems which have > allowed Modi to > flower, can actually help the society at large or not, Are > these values the > hallmark of a developed society, and a developed country, > which we wish to > become by 2020? > > Otherwise, Gujarat will keep electing BJP, and the Centre > will still be the > UPA's. The BJP doesn't seem to analyze this question ever, > so Gujaratis only > have the choice to look at it (Or again a section of > Gujaratis, and here you > can understand which section I refer to). > > Because after all, it hurts me not that Modi gets elected > again and again; > it hurts me that a section of the Gujarati middle class > feels that Muslims > deserved post-Godhra, that they are Pakistan supporters, > that Congress will > bring progress only to Muslims (which it never did in the > first place to a > substantial extent). I dont' want Modi to be dismissed > arbitarily, but what > I want is that society (or a section of society) to > introspect whether it is > doing right or wrong by believing such value systems. > > And if still people feel offended, I apologize. > > Regards > > Rakesh > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rahul_capri at yahoo.com Mon May 18 08:27:08 2009 From: rahul_capri at yahoo.com (Rahul Asthana) Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 19:57:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Poor? Pay Up Message-ID: <766232.84590.qm@web53608.mail.re2.yahoo.com> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/17/AR2009051702053_pf.html NEWS | POLITICS | OPINIONS | BUSINESS | LOCAL | SPORTS | ARTS & LIVING | GOING OUT GUIDE | JOBS | CARS | REAL ESTATE |SHOPPING Poor? Pay Up. Having Little Money Often Means No Car, No Washing Machine, No Checking Account And No Break From Fees and High Prices By DeNeen L. Brown Washington Post Staff Writer Monday, May 18, 2009 You have to be rich to be poor. That's what some people who have never lived below the poverty line don't understand. Put it another way: The poorer you are, the more things cost. More in money, time, hassle, exhaustion, menace. This is a fact of life that reality television and magazines don't often explain. So we'll explain it here. Consider this a primer on the economics of poverty. "The poor pay more for a gallon of milk; they pay more on a capital basis for inferior housing," says Rep. Earl Blumenauer (D-Ore.). "The poor and 100 million who are struggling for the middle class actually end up paying more for transportation, for housing, for health care, for mortgages. They get steered to subprime lending. . . . The poor pay more for things middle-class America takes for granted." Poverty 101: We'll start with the basics. Like food: You don't have a car to get to a supermarket, much less to Costco or Trader Joe's, where the middle class goes to save money. You don't have three hours to take the bus. So you buy groceries at the corner store, where a gallon of milk costs an extra dollar. A loaf of bread there costs you $2.99 for white. For wheat, it's $3.79. The clerk behind the counter tells you the gallon of leaking milk in the bottom of the back cooler is $4.99. She holds up four fingers to clarify. The milk is beneath the shelf that holds beef bologna for $3.79. A pound of butter sells for $4.49. In the back of the store are fruits and vegetables. The green peppers are shriveled, the bananas are more brown than yellow, the oranges are picked over. (At a Safeway on Bradley Boulevard in Bethesda, the wheat bread costs $1.19, and white bread is on sale for $1. A gallon of milk costs $3.49 -- $2.99 if you buy two gallons. A pound of butter is $2.49. Beef bologna is on sale, two packages for $5.) Prices in urban corner stores are almost always higher, economists say. And sometimes, prices in supermarkets in poorer neighborhoods are higher. Many of these stores charge more because the cost of doing business in some neighborhoods is higher. "First, they are probably paying more on goods because they don't get the low wholesale price that bigger stores get," says Bradley R. Schiller, a professor emeritus at American University and the author of "The Economics of Poverty and Discrimination." "The real estate is higher. The fact that volume is low means fewer sales per worker. They make fewer dollars of revenue per square foot of space. They don't end up making more money. Every corner grocery store wishes they had profits their customers think they have." According to the Census Bureau, more than 37 million people in the country live below the poverty line. The poor know these facts of life. These facts become their lives. Time is money, they say, and the poor pay more in time, too. When you are poor, you don't have the luxury of throwing a load into the washing machine and then taking your morning jog while it cycles. You wait until Monday afternoon, when the laundromat is most likely to be empty, and you put all of that laundry from four kids into four heaps, bundle it in sheets, load a cart and drag it to the corner. "If I had my choice, I would have a washer and a dryer," says Nya Oti, 37, a food-service worker who lives in Brightwood. She stands on her toes to reach the top of a washer in the laundromat on Georgia Avenue NW and pours in detergent. The four loads of laundry will take her about two hours. A soap opera is playing loudly on the television hanging from the ceiling. A man comes in talking to himself. He drags his loads of dirty sheets and mattress pads and dumps them one by one into the machines next to Oti. She does not seem to notice. She is talking about other costs of poverty. "My car broke down this weekend, and it took a lot of time getting on the bus, standing on the bus stop. It was a waste of a whole lot of times. Waiting. The transfer to the different bus." When she has her car, she drives to Maryland, where she shops for her groceries at Shoppers Food Warehouse or Save-A-Lot, where she says some items are cheaper and some are higher. "They have a way of getting you in there on a bargain. You go in for something cheap, but something else is more expensive." She buys bags of oranges or apples, but not the organic kind. "Organic is too much," she says. "When you are poor, you substitute time for money," says Randy Albelda, an economics professor at the University of Massachusetts at Boston. "You have to work a lot of hours and still not make a lot of money. You get squeezed, and your money is squeezed." The poor pay more in hassle: the calls from the bill collectors, the landlord, the utility company. So they spend money to avoid the hassle. The poor pay for caller identification because it gives them peace of mind to weed out calls from bill collectors. The rich have direct deposit for their paychecks. The poor have check-cashing and payday loan joints, which cost time and money. Payday advance companies say they are providing an essential service to people who most need them. Their critics say they are preying on people who are the most "economically vulnerable." "As you've seen with the financial services industry, if people can cut a profit, they do it," Blumenauer says. "The poor pay more for financial services. A lot of people who are 'unbanked' pay $3 for a money order to pay their electric bill. They pay a 2 percent check-cashing fee because they don't have bank services. The reasons? Part of it is lack of education. But part of it is because people target them. There is evidence that credit-card mills have recently started trolling for the poor. They are targeting the recently bankrupt." Outside the ACE check-cashing office on Georgia Avenue in Petworth, Harrison Blakeney, 67, explains a hard financial lesson of poverty. He uses the check-cashing store to pay his telephone bill. The store charges 10 percent to take Blakeney's money and send the payment to the phone company. That 10 percent becomes what it costs him to get his payment to the telephone company on time. Ten percent is more than the cost of a stamp. But, Blakeney says: "I don't have time to mail it. You come here and get it done. Then you don't get charged with the late fee." Blakeney, a retired auto mechanic who now lives on a fixed income, says: "We could send the payment ahead of time but sometimes you don't have money ahead of time. That's why you pay extra money to get them to send it." Blakeney, wearing a purple jacket, leans on his cane. He has no criticism for the check-cashing place. "That's how they make their money," he says. "I don't care about the charge." Just then, Lenwood Brooks walks out of the check-cashing place. He is angry about how much it just cost him to cash a check. "They charged me $15 to cash a $300 check," he says. You ask him why he didn't just go to a bank. But his story is as complicated as the various reasons people find themselves in poverty and in need of a check-cashing joint. He says he lost his driver's license and now his regular bank "won't recognize me as a human. That's why I had to come here. It's a rip-off, but it's like a convenience store. You pay for the convenience." Then there's credit. The poor don't have it. What they had was a place like First Cash Advance in D.C.'s Manor Park neighborhood, where a neon sign once flashed "PAYDAY ADVANCE." Through the bulletproof glass, a cashier in white eyeliner and long white nails explained what you needed to get an advance on your paycheck -- a pay stub, a legitimate ID, a checkbook. This meant you're doing well enough to have a checking account, but you're still poor. And if you qualify, the fee for borrowing $300 is $46.50. That was not for a year -- it's for seven days, although the terms can vary. How much interest will this payday loan cost you? In simple terms, the company is charging a $15.50 fee for every $100 that you borrow. On your $300 payday loan -- borrowed for a term of seven days -- the effective annual percentage rate is 806 percent. The cashier says that what you do is write First Cash Advance a check for $345.50 plus another $1 fee, and it will give you $300 in cash upfront. It holds the check until you get paid. Then you bring in $346.50 and it returns your check. Or it cashes the check and keeps your $346.50, or you have the option of extending the loan with additional fees. You'll be out $46.50, which you'd rather have for the late fee on the rent you didn't pay on time. Or the gas bill you swear you paid last month but the gas company swears it never got. But now the payday advance place has closed, shuttered by metal doors. A sign in the front door says the business has moved. After the D.C. government passed a law requiring payday lenders to abide by a 24-percent limit on the annual percentage rate charged on a loan, many such stores in the District closed. Now advocates for the poor say they are concerned about other businesses that prey on poor people by extending loans in exchange for car titles. If a person does not pay back the loan, then the business becomes the owner of the car. All these costs can lead the poor to a collective depression. Douglas J. Besharov, resident scholar at the American Enterprise Institute, says: "There are social costs of being poor, though it is not clear where the cause and effect is. We know for a fact that on certain measures, people who are poor are often more depressed than people who are not. I don't know if poverty made them depressed or the depression made them poor. I think the cause and effect is an open question. Some people are so depressed they are not functional. 'I live in a crummy neighborhood. My kids go to a crummy school.' That is not the kind of scenario that would make them happy." Another effect of all this, he says: "Would you want to hire someone like that?" The poor suspect that prices are higher where they live, even the prices in major supermarkets. The suspicions sometimes spill over into frustration. On a hot spring afternoon, Jacob Carter finds himself standing in a checkout line at the Giant on Alabama Avenue SE. Before the cashier finishes ringing up his items, he puts $43 on the conveyor belt. But his bill comes to $52.07. He has no more money, so he tells the clerk to start removing items. The clerk suggests that he use his "bonus card" for savings. Carter tells the clerk he has no such card. He puts back the liter of soda. Puts back the paper towels. Sets aside $9 worth of hot fried chicken wings. He returns $13 worth of groceries. "Y'all got some high prices in this [expletive]," he says, standing in Aisle 4, blue shirt over work clothes. The clerk suggests that he take his cash off the conveyor belt, because if she moves the belt the money will be carried into the machinery. Then the money will be gone. Carter, a building engineer, snatches up the money, then gives it to the clerk. His final bill is $39.07. He looks at the receipt and then announces without the slightest indication as to why: "Just give me all my [expletive] money back. It's too high in this [expletive]." The clerk calls the supervisor, who comes over. The supervisor doesn't argue with Carter. She just starts the process of giving him a refund. "I want my money back. This [expletive] is too high. My grandmother told me about this store." The supervisor returns $39.07 in cash. "Sir," she says, "have a blessed day." The food in this supermarket might be cheaper than the goods at a corner store. But Carter still feels frustrated by what he thinks is a mark-up on prices in supermarkets in poor neighborhoods. Carter walks out. The poor pay in other ways, ways you might never imagine. Jeanette Reed, who is retired and lives on a fixed income, sold her blood when she needed money. "I had no other source to get money," she says. "I went to the blood bank. And they gave me $30. "I needed the money. I didn't have the money and no source of getting money. No gas. No food. I have to go to a center that gives out boxes of food once a month. They give you cereal or vouchers for $10. They give you canned tuna and macaroni and cheese. Crackers and soup. They give you commodities like day-old bread." The poor know the special economics of their housing, too. "You pay rent that might be more than a mortgage," Reed says. "But you don't have the credit or the down payment to buy a house. Apartments are not going down. They are going up. They say houses are better, cheaper. But how are you going to get in a house if you don't have any money for a down payment?" There is also an economic cost to living in low-income neighborhoods. "The cheaper housing is in more-dangerous areas," says Reed, who lives in Southeast Washington. "I moved out of my old apartment. I hate that area. They be walking up and down the street. Couldn't take the dog out at night because strangers walking up and down the street. They will knock on your door. Either they rob you, kill or ask for money. If you're not there, they will steal air conditioners and copper. They will sell your copper [pipes] for money." And then there is the particular unpleasantness when you make too much money to fall below the poverty line, but not enough to move up, up and away from it. For our final guest lecturer on poverty we take you to the Thrift Store on Georgia Avenue and Marie Nicholas, 35, in an orange shirt, purple pants and thick black eyeliner. She is what economists call the working poor. She is picking through the racks. The store is busy with customers on a Monday afternoon. There is the shrill sound of hangers sliding across racks under fluorescent lights. An old confirmation dress hangs from the ceiling. It has faded to yellow. It's not far from the used silver pumps, size 9 1/2 , nearly new, on sale for $9.99. "People working who don't make a lot of money go to the system for help, and they deny them," Nicholas says. "They say I make too much. It almost helps if you don't work." She says she makes $15 an hour working as a certified nursing assistant. She pays $850 for rent for a one-bedroom that she shares with her boyfriend and child. She went looking for a two-bedroom unit recently and found it would cost her $1,400. She pays $300 a month for child care for her 11-year-old son, who is developmentally delayed. She tried to put him in a subsidized child-care facility, but was told she makes too much money. "My son was not chosen for Head Start because I wasn't in a shelter or on welfare. People's kids who do go don't do nothing but sit at home." Money and time. "I ride the bus to get to work," Nicholas says. It takes an hour. "If I could drive, it would take me 10 minutes. I have to catch two buses." She gets to the bus stop at 6:30 a.m. The bus is supposed to come every 10 or 15 minutes. Sometimes, she says, it comes every 30 minutes. What could you accomplish with the lost 20 minutes standing there in the rain? Waiting. That's another cost of poverty. You wait in lines. You wait at bus stops. You wait on the bus as it makes it way up Georgia Avenue, hitting every stop. No sense in trying to hurry when you are poor. When you are poor, you wait. Post a Comment View all comments that have been posted about this article. Comments that include profanity or personal attacks or other inappropriate comments or material will be removed from the site. Additionally, entries that are unsigned or contain "signatures" by someone other than the actual author will be removed. Finally, we will take steps to block users who violate any of our posting standards, terms of use or privacy policies or any other policies governing this site. Please review the full rules governing commentaries and discussions. You are fully responsible for the content that you post. © 2009 The Washington Post Company Ads by Google Merchant Cash Advance Get a Merchant Cash Advance and Turn Future Visa/MC Sales into Cash www.advanceit.com mogo™ Loans: $5 per $100 Borrow Up To $1,500 Right Now. No hidden fees. Fast approval. www.MogoMoney.com/Apply Poor Credit Car Loans Guaranteed Approval for Poor Credit Car Loans .Apply Free Today www.CarLoan4You.ca From pawan.durani at gmail.com Mon May 18 09:49:56 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 09:49:56 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Last Journey From Sarda Message-ID: <6b79f1a70905172119p11295c28wf9df35460963dee4@mail.gmail.com> *Kashmiri Pandits - The Last Journey From Sarda* By RKS Shandilya Village Sardi, which houses the holy shrine of Goddess Sharda, is perhaps the most scenic place in 'Kishenganga (Neelam) Valley'. It lies about 20 kms to the north of Muzaffarabad. Till 1974 the village had no motorised transport link with the outside world. Due to its strategic importance Maharaja Gulab Singh had constructed a fort here. Dogra Kings maintained here a permanent military post. In October 1947 the garrison was headed by Pt. Sham Lal Khushu, the Thanedar. *Kashmiri Pandit population:* In 1947 the Kashmiri Pandit population of Sharda included the shopkeepers, the *purohits* and the employees. Swami Nand Lal, a saint of great merit had his *kutiya* at Sharda. He would stay here during summers. There were three shops run by Kashmiri Pandits. Tika Lal and Nand Lal Thusu, the two brothers who belonged to Lidderwan, had shops at Sharda and Dudniyal. Nath Ram of Seer Jagir and Dina Nath of Tikr ran another shop. The other shop belonged to Deva Ram and his brothers, who hailed from Gotheng. [image: A view of Sardi village.]* A view of Sardi village. * Pt. Sat Lal and Pt. Govind Ram Bhat served as Purohits at the shrine. There were many Pandit employees in the area, serving mostly in Forest Department. Pt. Shridhar Dhar, Conservator of Forests and resident of Chotta Bazar, Srinagar had served in the area in different capacities. A great devotee of Goddess Sarda, he used to perform havan on every Sarda Ashtmi at Sarda. Most of the employees in the forest department in Kupwara region had been recruited by him. *Tribal Invasion:* Soon after the news about the 1947 disturbances (tribal raid) reached Dudniyal, Pt. Sona Lal Thusu, son of Tika Ram, closed the shop. He entrusted his belongings to the care of his servants and moved to Lidderwan (Kashmir). Pt. Jagadhar Bhat (Patwari) and Sham Lal Gagru (of Karahama), a forest guard were his companions on this journey. Kashmiri Pandits in Sarda came to know about ribal invasion from Sultan Malik, servant of Pt. Dina Nath, the shopkeeper. Malik had brought a letter from Dina Nath's family at Tikr. Dr. Gauri Shankar, the Ayurvedic doctor had already left. His Dawasaz (Pharmacist) Pt. Narayan Joo Pujari (brother of Purohit Govind Joo) left along with his family members, which included Govind Ram's wife, children, besides Nand Lal Pujari's mother, Parvati diyad. Parvati had a local friend called Zeba. One day Parvati sensed the gravity of the situation from her conversation with Zeba. Apprehension that invasion could force them to change their faith, Parvati asked her family members to pack belongings immediately and leave for Gotheng. [image: Sharda Temple in ruins at Sardi (PoK)]* Sharda Temple in ruins at Sardi (PoK) * The *purohit* family left Sarda the following day at 4 AM and reached Jumagand in the forest range at 4 PM. The family was carrying ten kgs of Silver, which they had received as Chadav (offerings). Locals of Jumagand robbed them of Silver and other valuables. They also ordered them to dismount from the horses. The family marched to Lidderwan on foot. The horseman (Markban) returned with horses from Jumagand the next evening and narrated to Kashmiri Pandits at Sarda what all had happened. Swami Nand Lal Ji had refused to leave Sarda till Pandit employees from periphery of Sarda also returned. The day Pujari family left for Lidderwan, Swami Ji had organised a mehfil at his Kutiya at around 2 PM. This was attended by Nath Ji Razdan (the shopkeeper) of Gotheng, Dina Nath Tikr, Shamboo Nath of Zolura, Shamboo Nath Thusu, a Kuth Watcher, Hriday Nath Kaw, the Forestor, Shridhar Joo of Goshbug, and two Pandit constables from Malmoh. Pt. Govind Ram Pujari, his brother Prakash Ram and Thanedar Sham Lal Khushu of Srinagar were also present in this gathering. Prakash Ram was an employee in the forest department. Thanedar functioned as administrator of Sarda and operated from fort. He was in his mid fifties. Normally Fort was a forbidden territory for the public. In the mehfil one of the Pandit employees requested Thanedar to get Kashmiri Pandits into the fort on some pretext in view of prevailing security situation. Pt. Sham Lal who was slow in understanding the gravity of the situation virtually flew into a rage and threatened to arrest the employee who suggested this. Thanedar accused the employee of spreading panic. Prakash Ram calmed Sham Lal down, arguing that the particular employee was a man of little consequence. This had sobering effect on Thanedar. The horseman (Markban) who had accompanied Purohit family to Jumagund came to see Swami Nand Lal Ji and narrated to him how the Purohit family was robbed of silver and divested of horses. Swami Ji was now desperate to go to Kashmir but expressed his inability to walk. He asked Pt. Shamboo Nath Thusu and Pt. Shridhar Joo to fetch a horse for him from Ram Saran Das, a shopkeeper at Surgan-a village 6 kms from Sarda Surgan is 8 miles from Nurinarsar, the latter separates Sarda. Valley from Kaghan Valley in Yagistan (Chilas). Ram Saran Dass's family was also with him. Both Thusu and Shridhar Joo were Kuth watchers. Govt. had issued doublebored rifles to them. *Fort Captured:* In October 1947 when locals were talking in whispering tones about the invasion, Thanedar Sham Lal had secretly despatched two Dogra soldiers to Srinagar to ask for reinforcements. While the soldiers were still in Handwara they received the disturbing news about the invasion. One of them returned to Sarda to put Thanedar on alert. Thanedar had a force of 11 constables—4 Dogra soldiers, six constables from the majority community in Kashmir valley and Kartar Singh, a Sikh from Hamal, Rafiabad. [image: The Fort at Sardi.]* The Fort at Sardi. * Shridhar Joo and Shamboo Nath Thusu left for Surgan, carrying a rifle with them, to fetch horse for Swamiji. The same night Wali Mohammad, son of Sayid Ahmed Sardar entered the fort. Wali Mohammad was a forester and belonged to Kharigam, a village 2 kms from Sarda. The drama began with six constables of the majority community asking Thanedar to open the ammunition room (Kuhth). They told him that situation was grim and asked him to open the ammunition room so that they could take out the ammunition. As Thanedar opened the ammunition room, Ahmed Khan, a constable, pushed him in and locked the room from outside. Khan hurled choicest abuses on him. This constable hailed from Srinagar city and had been recruited in police in 1933. In this confusion four Dogra soldiers managed to escape while Kartar Singh was taken captive. Meanwhile, a constable who manned the outer gate of the fort and was carrying a rifle asked Thanedar to surrender. Pt. Sham Lal was handcuffed and taken as captive, Maharaja's flag was burnt and a new 'Pakistan' flag fashioned from the blue turban was hoisted. Wali Mohammed, the forester, became self-styled administrator of Sarda. The forester and around 50 locals then went to Swami ji's *kutiya*, asking Pandits there to change their faith, Janki Nath Thusu was renamed as Jan Khan. Shamboo Nath Thusu and Shridhar Joo left Surgan the next morning after taking horse from Ram Saran. At Dunarian, 2 kms down from Surgan the duo met Mohammad Hakim, a peon in Forest Range office at Sarda. He was carrying a message for Shamboo Nath Thusu from his brother Janki Nath. The message carried information of the happenings of the previous day-the hoisting of 'Pak' flag and conversion of Kashmiri Pandit and holding them as captives. It impressed upon Thusu to change his faith and also suggested new name for him. Mohammad Hakim forced them to hand over the rifle to him. Swamiji and other Kashmiri Pandits were waiting for SN Thusu and Shridhar Joo and had already decided to leave. Numberdar Mir Zaman, a man with deep secular convictions, had told Swamiji that the situation was fast deteriorating and had impressed upon him to leave. Swamiji was held in high esteem by local Muslims of Sarda. Locals advised him to take Sinjli route and not Dudniyal route which otherwise was easier. They feared that Dudniyal may already have come under the sway of raiders. Locals were quite sympathetic. [image: Saint Swami Nand Lal in Aasan.]* Saint Swami Nand Lal in Aasan. * *First Journey:* Swamiji and Pandits began journey back home at 10 AM the same day. Swamiji had hardly walked 2 miles of the uphil journey when he gave up and refused to walk any further. Meanwhile, Mir Zaman's messenger caught up with them and advised them to return to Sarda immediately. Two locals, armed with axes, had been following them. They had lost the track and had gone ahead of Pandits. After having learnt about it Mir Zaman got worried about the safety of Pandits. The deep concern Mir Zaman showed about the safety of Pandits in those turbulent times is remembered by Pandits to this day. *Mir Zaman, the saviour:* Mir Zaman heaved sigh of relief when Kashmiri Pandits returned to Sarda. He had already convened a Jirga (meeting of local elders) in the courtyard of his house. Kashmiri Pandits also joined them on one side. Mir Zaman admonished his community brethren, asking them why did they not restrain the two locals who had gone with axes to harm Swamiji and others. He warned them that it was not easy to kill Pandits. Mir Zaman concluded his address by saying with concern and authority that Kashmiri Pandits were his guests and would stay with him. Mir Zaman had already arranged a room for Pandits in his house and had spread grass on the floor. Within two hours all the belongings and the provisions in the three shops owned by Pandits reached the new 'hideout' of Pandits. Mir Zaman had also arranged a Chulha in the room. Numberdar was in his early sixties. He asked Pandits to lit the fire and prepare the food. Mir Zaman emphatically told Pandits that they should cook food in their own way and added that it was not his religion to impose things on others. Janki Nath, Nath Ji Razdan, Shamboo Nath Thusu and Shridhar Joo used to attend to kitchen work by turns, with Shridhar Joo maintaining overall supervision. During the month Pandits stayed in the house of Mir Zaman, the latter took extremely good care of them. He and his wife would sleep near the door of Pandits' room to keep watch on any stranger straying into their room. Locals would of and on ask Mir Zaman whether the Pandits were following the new faith with sincerity. He would put them off by telling that the Pandits were observing new faith all the time. He would then come to Pandits and tell them, 'Rascals, why you are not performing your own *pujas?' *Mir Zaman kept locals away from visiting Pandits. One day Swamiji felt like smoking his own special tobacco he had kept in his *kutiya, *located 1 mile away from Mir Zaman's house. A Pandit employee not only got the sack of tobacco but also ensured that nobody saw him while going to the *kutiya *in the afternoon. On another occasion Thanedar Sham Lal was brought to Mir Zaman's house to show to Pandits that he was alive. Kartar Singh's beard and hair had been trimmed. All the non-Muslims who were in Sarda were forced to change their faith. *Latif Malik and Barkatullah Khan intervene:* Meanwhile Nand Ram Thusu of Lidderwan whose two sons-Janki Nath and Shamboo Nath were among the captives in Sarda contacted his friend Latif Malik, a Zaildar of Changan (Dudniyal) through a messenger, Nabir Sheikh of Kawari. Nand Ram had asked Latif to help him to see his sons reach home safely. In the prevailing situation Latif Malik had little authority as Zaildar. Wali Mohammad was the sole authority that mattered. Latif, however, assured Nabir Sheikh that he would do his best to help Nand Ram. Pak troops had still not entered Sarda. Mir Zaman's house was 1½ miles away from the fort, while the Sarda shrine was just at a distance of 1 mile. Shops of Kashmiri Pandits were located in the shrine area. For a month Kashmiri Pandits holed up in Sarda had remained cut off from the outside world. Lateef Malik contacted Wali Mohammad, the self-styled administrator and asked him, "What these Pandits would do here? It was Pakistan now.Let them go". Another person who came to Sarda to intervene for their release was Barkatullah Khan of Kawari. Through the intervention of Barkatullah Khan and Latif Malik, Kashmiri Pandits were set free. Mir Zaman asked Barkatullah Khan to take care of Pandits for their onward journey to Lidderwan. The Pandits left at 11 AM, carrying maize bread and Kishmish-Zirish along with them and reached Dudniyal at 7 PM. It was dark by now. The shops of Thusu family were locked. The godowns of Jodhamal Kutiyal were located in the same building on the second storey. Pt. Sona Lal Thusu and Amar Nath who also worked with Jodhamal had already returned to Lidderwan. Amarnath also functioned as guard of the bridge at Dudniyal. At Barkatullah's advice Pandits decided to spend the night at the house of Sharif Dar, a forest guard. The latter's father, Satar Dar had business partnership in water-mill with Sona Lal Thusu. Sharif's family was still hospitable and courteous. They helped Pandits to relieve their fatigue by bringing maize bread and a samovar of salt tea. Janki Nath suggested to Sharif, "This *sadhu *(Swami Ji) has not taken salt for ten years. I will prepare tea for him separately". Janki Nath prepared *kahwa *for him. Swamiji took *kahwa *and the maize bread they had carried from Sarda. *Thusu Shops Burnt:* It was 11 PM. Pandits were still gossiping on the road when they heard the sound of a bullet shot. Shops of Thusus had been put to arson, the godowns of Jodhamal Kutiyal also perished in the fire. However, the two three-storeyed houses owned by Thusus located some distance away remained safe. Rai Bahadur Ishar Dass's godowns, a school and a *sarai* were housed in these houses. The ladies of Dar household cried bitterly that the 'shops of our Pandits have been burnt'. Pandits told them that they had built these shops and hoped that they would rebuild these. At the morning breakfast at Dar's house Pandits were joined by many locals. Pandits asked the locals why did they put their shops to arson even after they had converted. The locals claimed that the accused had been identified and claimed that he would be taught a good lesson. Soon Pandits reached Potkhai (Marhama) gully. From here there was a steep climb of 1½ kms over one foot deep snow. Swamiji gave up and could not walk any further. Janki Nath warmed him up with hot *kahwa*. Nathji and Shamboo Nath Thusu carried Swamiji on shoulders upto Marhama gully top. From here they could see Kashmir—their home. Swamiji was thrilled and puffed his special tobacco. In downhill journey towards Lidderwan he moved like a tiger taking 5-7 steps together. *Zirhama:* While passing through Zirhama Pandits were a little apprehensive. Soon after the raid a Sikh youth had been killed here while his younger brother had been saved by Karim Sheikh of Kawari. Karim had given him shelter in his house. When situation improved he brought him to Kupwara Thana. The two Sikh brothers were running a shop in Sarda and used to sell army shoes and clothes. While fleeing Sarda a mob had attacked them at Zirhama, one km from Lidderwan. When Pandits reached Zirhama, the mob had moved towards Lidderwan. *Thanedar Suspended:* Thanedar Sham Lal reached Srinagar a few months later. He and constable Kartar Singh were shifted from Fort to a Kotha (a Kacha Hut) and were put under house-arrest. Kartar was taken daily to the Kishenganga river by 'soldiers'. They would terrorise him by asking their colleagues to open fire at him. One day Thanedar and Kartar decided to escape. The door of Kotha made lot of noise on being opened. The duo put some dust and dirty water around it to ensure that it did not make any noise. They ran away during the night. Their gum ammunition shoes helped them cover 26 miles over snow to reach Kupwara. At Srinagar Sham Lal had another surprise in store for him. He was put under suspension and remained without pay for many months. Thanedar was shocked to see a constable attending his duties at Hari Parbhat Fort. This constable was among those who had stormed the Fort at Sarda and hoisted Pakistani flag. *Source: **Kashmir Sentinel* From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Mon May 18 10:12:08 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 10:12:08 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Election Forecast In-Reply-To: <63439.46702.qm@web39102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <63439.46702.qm@web39102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Malik jee If what you have stated is true (meaning that a Hindu poor can't get that additional amount but a Muslim rich can), then I must say it is wrong; whether it can be termed appeasement or not in my own definition I would have to figure out. I believe that appeasement is pleasing for the sake of pleasing. It could be appeasement if this amount is being provided but no proper education is being given in these schools (I presume these are govt. schools and not private schools. Please do correct me if I am wrong)) However, I would be very happy if you can provide me with the following details: A) Is this scheme known by some name, which I can read and get information about in net? Can you provide me some links to this about which I can read more into? B) Are there any reasons based on which this has been justified? C) Are there specific areas in which this is being implemented? Or are there some special areas where it is being implemented? Ultimately, each scheme must be checked in its context to find out whether it indeed is a case of appeasement or it's a case of helping people. Hence, I need to get more information about this. What's more, since the amount is being given to Muslim girls, one can certainly understand that being a patriarchial society, with any deterioration in law and order or with any chance for men to portray their authority, women are the first victims and girls are therefore denied the chance to be educated on this logic. May be the govt thought that since the insecurity among Muslims is greater and therefore they may not send their girls at all to be educated, this idea was hit upon. So again, one has to look at the logic being given by the Delhi govt. for this. So one must look at the rationale of this. If it is meant for economic reasons, then it could be appeasement. If it is meant for security reasons, then it can't be appeasement; what can be done is to suggest alternatives so that all girls are given incentives to be taught. For example, if the NREGA and the RTI can be brought, why not introduce the Ladli Laxmi Yojana that Advani was talking about in his campaign. (Introduced in MP, as soon as a girl is born, a bank account is opened in her name and a certain amount is added monthly in her account. At the age of 18, this money sums up to Rs. 1,00,000/- and the girl can take it out. This can be introduced for BPL families or even APL families upto a certain income limit.) But as I said, if what you say is true, yes, it can be a case of appeasement, if the actual education being provided is useless and the only benefit for Muslims is to get Rs. 300/-. Also one more thing. Please see the reasons and rationale for doing things; don't construe each and every act as act of appeasement. Regards Rakesh From vedavati_jogi at yahoo.com Mon May 18 10:58:25 2009 From: vedavati_jogi at yahoo.com (Vedavati Jogi) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 10:58:25 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Election Forecast Message-ID: <865349.7758.qm@web94712.mail.in2.yahoo.com> santoshji,   your mail shows only hindu can be the enemy of hindu i am sure bharat will be muslimstan very soon.   thanks to seculars like you in this nation.     vedavati     --- On Sun, 17/5/09, Santhosh Kumar wrote: From: Santhosh Kumar Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Election Forecast To: "Aditya Raj Kaul" Cc: "sarai list" <> Date: Sunday, 17 May, 2009, 2:59 PM Thank Sree Ram, BJP didn't come to power, otherwise Aditya Raj Kaul Ji would have come personally with a sword or trishul to deal with with people like Inder Salim Ji and other non Sangh parivar people in this list On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 1:45 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > seems Inder Salim has been working in a navratan oil company and tired of > the left trade union :P How else would he have so much information about > Advaniji ? > > Don't worry Inder Sali, you will have your job; Modi is there still to take > care of you. > > Manali is a far dream still for you. > > On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 1:37 AM, Inder Salim wrote: > > > better than gratuity, ADvani ji might promote Nano car of Tata Ji > > > > and some advertise NAVRATTAN OIL, > > > >  i am sure  he will outwit AmitabBachan on that > > > > and earn more bucks, to  enjoy trout fish with red wine in Manali with > >  VajPAYEE Ji > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 12:27 AM, Pawan Durani > > wrote: > > > Great show by Congress ..... > > > > > > However the best thing about this election was the worst performance of > > Left > > > in last 40 years. > > > > > > Advani Ji now needs a peaceful retirement and perhaps may be rewarded > > with > > > Gratuity and other benefits..... > > > > > > Pawan > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 12:11 AM, Rakesh Iyer > >wrote: > > > > > >> Dear all > > >> > > >> I had gone out, so apologies (if required) for the delay. > > >> > > >> Unlike Anupam jee, I don't have problems with people changing their > > views > > >> provided they stick to it. So I won't comment on that. > > >> > > >> What I will comment on are some interesting thoughts. First of all, > > India > > >> has a parliamentary system where people choose their representatives > on > > the > > >> first by post principle, and there are a number of factors at play. > What > > is > > >> certainly not a factor (neither in 2004 nor in 2009 as CSDS surveys > done > > by > > >> Yogendra Yadav repeatedly indicate) is the issue of the Prime > Minister. > > >> > > >> Forget Advani or Manmohan Singh or Rahul Gandhi or Narendra Modi. Even > > if > > >> Lord Krishna, Lord Ram, Prophet Muhammad or Jesus Christ were to stand > > for > > >> the post of Prime Minister, it would hardly make an effect, simply > > because > > >> people don't vote for personalities as PM. The major issues before > > people > > >> are concerned with their livelihood, be it 'roti, kapda and makan', > > water, > > >> health (this means a good hospital with working people and working > > >> equipments in the village or nearby places), good connection to cities > > >> through roads, education, and in this particular issue, two more > issues > > >> were > > >> important: inflation and security. > > >> > > >> So actually, the BJP did have issues to fight with: inflation and > > >> terrorism. > > >> Except that BJP doesn't have a great record in them either. > > >> > > >> As far as inflation is concerned, I can only remind of the 1998 > > elections > > >> in > > >> Delhi, Rajasthan and Madhya Pradesh, where BJP suffered a 440-KV shock > > on > > >> losing state elections. And as for terrorism, we all know how they > > fared. > > >> The Kandahar fiasco, the Parliament attack, the Godhra incident (I > > mention > > >> this here because the Gujarat BJP unit repeatedly mentioned this as an > > >> ISI-sponsored attack, so they can clarify on this. I mention it as an > > >> intelligence failure), the Akshardham temple attack, the Raghunath > > temple > > >> attack, the bomb blasts in Mulund and Ghatkopar, and so on. So before > > >> throwing stones at others, the BJP should look at its' own shallow > > record > > >> with respect to terror in the past. > > >> > > >> And on top of all this, then they have the foolishness in them to say > > that > > >> L.K. Advani is a strong leader. And to indicate this, they had posters > > >> showing Advani clenching his fists! Great! That way we could have put > > one > > >> of > > >> the wrestlers who had won a bronze medal for us in Olympics 2008 as > the > > PM > > >> candidate! Nobody could have been stronger than that! > > >> > > >> Strength doesn't come by repeatedly saying that 'I am strong'. A > person > > who > > >> is strong will never say that about himself; it's others who say that > > about > > >> him. Here we had Advani shooting off his own mouth about how strong he > > was. > > >> And people knew how to respond. > > >> > > >> Secondly, contrary to your statements Vedavati jee, the BJP hasn't > done > > >> that > > >> well as expected. In MP, it was expected to win more than 20 seats. > And > > >> Congress was not certainly expecting 10 seats which it won there. As > for > > >> Rajasthan, BJP has been wiped out when compared to last election. Only > > >> Chhatisgarh and Gujarat are the states where BJP has done better than > > >> previous times, in addition to Jharkhand of course. > > >> > > >> Thirdly, you are right. BJP should have expanded their base. But base > > could > > >> have been expanded by throwing away Hindutva (which ironically brings > to > > >> them supporters like you but alienates many), and trying to become a > > >> right-centrist party. People would have had no problems if BJP had no > > trust > > >> on Pakistan, wanted India to become a super-power, and had stated that > > they > > >> weren't embarassed on their Hindu roots. > > >> > > >> Instead, the BJP just seems hell bent on attacking minorities where > and > > >> when > > >> they can (Kandhamal and Karnataka being best examples) and then wants > > >> Muslims and Christians to vote for them! How do they expect a Muslim > > woman > > >> to vote for them when under their reign, she was raped in the name of > > 'Jai > > >> Shree Ram' by activists related to the larger parivar to which the BJP > > >> belongs? > > >> > > >> Similarly on the issue of appeasement. It is right that the Congress > and > > >> others have practiced Muslim appeasement. But does this mean Muslims > > should > > >> be punished? When Muslims haven't progressed, then it's the fault of > the > > >> Congress. How are they being then 'pampered'? Vote bank politics is > > >> actually > > >> to disadvantage of Muslims, and the BJP should have come to their > rescue > > by > > >> providing them development. Instead, the BJP gave them post-Godhra as > > gift. > > >> > > >> Fourth. Can Bipin jee inform me (or anybody else for that matter) as > to > > the > > >> proceedings under NDA which point to RTI? I would be glad to know. > > >> > > >> Fifth. Swathi jee, I think you raised two vital points. I agree with > you > > >> that it's not the Congress or the Left (do read this Bipin jee, this > is > > for > > >> you too) which brought either the NREGA or the RTI, it's the social > > >> movements which brought them. And I appreciate the courage they showed > > in > > >> their movement and the pressure they exerted, which was accepted by > the > > >> Left > > >> at very late stage, and finally this act was introduced. One must > never > > >> forget the kind of pressure exerted by the Times of India-Economic > > >> Times-Ambani-English mainstream media-their elitist friends combine, > to > > >> ensure the NREGA never got passed. > > >> > > >> But the larger point also remains that this govt did pass it. Would > the > > NDA > > >> have ever passed it? You know better than me what the answer to that > > would > > >> be. Therefore, we must accept their small contribution to getting this > > act > > >> passed and appreciate it, though the first credit to it lies with all > > those > > >> who fought tooth and nail in the first place to get the act passed. > > >> > > >> And Bipin jee, the NREGA was brought through a social movement. Better > > go > > >> and find about it rather than cribbing about policies you don't know a > > >> thing > > >> about. And as for your infrastructural development, the people of > India > > >> would want NREGA first rather than the Golden Quadrilateral. > > >> > > >> > > >> The second point Swathi jee has raised is about an elected PM. > > Personally, > > >> I > > >> would have liked Manmohan Singh jee to fight the election and win it.. > > That > > >> would have silenced many people who always look upon him as the > 'stooge > > of > > >> Sonia'. However, unlike others, I wouldn't feel so bad about it. The > > larger > > >> issue is always the livelihood of people, and while Sonia may not have > > the > > >> responsibilities of the PM, she has the responsibilities of ensuring > her > > >> party wins elections. Therefore, even if the PM doesn't listen, she > has > > to > > >> listen to the voice of India, as she had to in the case of NREGA and > > RTI. > > >> > > >> Therefore, I don't worry much whether Manmohan is elected or not. I > > though > > >> have another reason as to why a PM should be elected. > > >> > > >> When a PM like say Vajpayee gets elected and then becomes PM, he knows > > the > > >> ways and means to win elections. And therefore he equally knows when > to > > >> start something, where to stop (why, where and when), where to set > > agendas > > >> and where to start working upon them. Manmohan I don't think has that > > >> political experience an elected PM have to manage his allies. This is > > clear > > >> from the way he reacted at different times to the nuclear deal. His > > >> reactions wouldn't have changed so much had he been an elected PM. > > Perhaps > > >> he could have handled the Left better in that case. > > >> > > >> But again this is only my speculation. It may be true, or it may be > > false. > > >> > > >> And democracy is not about elections. It is about giving rights to > > citizens > > >> and ensure that they are indeed actually provided those rights. So an > > >> elected PM or not is not a big issue. > > >> > > >> What is are the rights of people to secure their livelihood. > > >> > > >> If the BJP gains this huge lesson from this election, I would be the > > most > > >> happy person on this planet. And my frustration at this not happening > is > > >> what made me write in a nasty way, for which I am sorry. I would not > > repeat > > >> that again. > > >> > > >> And if the BJP doesn't learn it, then we need another party to come at > > >> centre to fight against Congress and displace BJP from its pole. > > >> > > >> And finally, the last word from one of my friends who also happens to > be > > a > > >> member of this list: > > >> > > >> The BJP lost because the revenues obtained through growth are spent > only > > to > > >> further growth. The Congress won because it spent partially the > revenues > > >> obtained through growth to bring up the poor to above-subsistence > level > > and > > >> contributed in some measure to equitable development in this manner. > > >> > > >> > > >> Regards > > >> > > >> Rakesh > > >> _________________________________________ > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >> Critiques & Collaborations > > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > >> subscribe in the subject header. > > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >>  List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > >> > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > -- > > > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > -- > Aditya Raj Kaul > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter http://beta.cricket.yahoo.com From c.anupam at gmail.com Mon May 18 11:19:11 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 11:19:11 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] plight of the muslim women and appeasement Message-ID: <341380d00905172249w796c55dm2c7e4f9c8672fb3a@mail.gmail.com> Perhaps Mr malik is not aware of the fact that plight of the muslim women among facing the gender discrimination is worst in india. it is true that Maulana Azad Trust has been Rs 500 to disburse Rs 300 scholarship each to the muslim girls. i dont see a reason why as you have cited that extra Rs 300 given to a muslim girl, while free books and copies are given equally to other kids is a question of muslim appeasement. can you explain why have you used a word like appeasement to describe an initiative that helps most discriminated ones? how many hindu families are willing to say that dont give them Rs 300 -- wouldn't rather say give us Rs 300 as well? anupam On 5/18/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > > Dear Malik jee > > If what you have stated is true (meaning that a Hindu poor can't get that > additional amount but a Muslim rich can), then I must say it is wrong; > whether it can be termed appeasement or not in my own definition I would > have to figure out. I believe that appeasement is pleasing for the sake of > pleasing. It could be appeasement if this amount is being provided but no > proper education is being given in these schools (I presume these are govt. > schools and not private schools. Please do correct me if I am wrong)) > > However, I would be very happy if you can provide me with the following > details: > > A) Is this scheme known by some name, which I can read and get information > about in net? Can you provide me some links to this about which I can read > more into? > > B) Are there any reasons based on which this has been justified? > > C) Are there specific areas in which this is being implemented? Or are > there > some special areas where it is being implemented? > > Ultimately, each scheme must be checked in its context to find out whether > it indeed is a case of appeasement or it's a case of helping people. Hence, > I need to get more information about this. > > What's more, since the amount is being given to Muslim girls, one can > certainly understand that being a patriarchial society, with any > deterioration in law and order or with any chance for men to portray their > authority, women are the first victims and girls are therefore denied the > chance to be educated on this logic. May be the govt thought that since the > insecurity among Muslims is greater and therefore they may not send their > girls at all to be educated, this idea was hit upon. So again, one has to > look at the logic being given by the Delhi govt. for this. > > So one must look at the rationale of this. If it is meant for economic > reasons, then it could be appeasement. If it is meant for security reasons, > then it can't be appeasement; what can be done is to suggest alternatives > so > that all girls are given incentives to be taught. For example, if the NREGA > and the RTI can be brought, why not introduce the Ladli Laxmi Yojana that > Advani was talking about in his campaign. (Introduced in MP, as soon as a > girl is born, a bank account is opened in her name and a certain amount is > added monthly in her account. At the age of 18, this money sums up to Rs. > 1,00,000/- and the girl can take it out. This can be introduced for BPL > families or even APL families upto a certain income limit.) > > But as I said, if what you say is true, yes, it can be a case of > appeasement, if the actual education being provided is useless and the only > benefit for Muslims is to get Rs. 300/-. > > Also one more thing. Please see the reasons and rationale for doing things; > don't construe each and every act as act of appeasement. > > Regards > > Rakesh > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From santhosh.kanipayur at gmail.com Mon May 18 11:30:54 2009 From: santhosh.kanipayur at gmail.com (Santhosh Kumar) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 11:30:54 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Election Forecast In-Reply-To: <865349.7758.qm@web94712.mail.in2.yahoo.com> References: <865349.7758.qm@web94712.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <19d498870905172300p2483a3b2vff7762dafda3180a@mail.gmail.com> Dear Vedavati Ji, I am not enemy to any body and do not want to be at any time. And I am sure all Hindus are not same. And i definitely find huge difference between a North Indian Hindu and a Kerala Hindu. I, brought up as a Hindu in Kerala, definitely do not like to be part of your Idiosyncrasies and baggages of hatred. (Unfortunately a section of Kerala hindus are now subscribing to.) We, in Kerala, have a history of more than 3000 years of interacting with different, different people from all over the world and understanding and assimilating those cultures. Even accepting many of them into our society, both for good and bad. i would like to be part of that tradition, rather than very parochial, hate trading Pan Indian Hindu identity now proposed and propagated by Sangh parivar and people like you. Thanks for identifying me as a secular one, which i would not dare to do myself because of the responsibilities it bring in. Whether it is a "Hindu Bharat" or "Muslimstan", I would find both unliviable and suffocating. I do not want both. respect and regards, Santhosh On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 10:58 AM, Vedavati Jogi wrote: > santoshji, > > your mail shows only hindu can be the enemy of hindu > i am sure bharat will be muslimstan very soon. > > thanks to seculars like you in this nation. > > > vedavati > > > --- On *Sun, 17/5/09, Santhosh Kumar *wrote: > > > From: Santhosh Kumar > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Election Forecast > To: "Aditya Raj Kaul" > Cc: "sarai list" <> > Date: Sunday, 17 May, 2009, 2:59 PM > > Thank Sree Ram, BJP didn't come to power, otherwise Aditya Raj Kaul Ji > would > have come personally with a sword or trishul to deal with with people like > Inder Salim Ji and other non Sangh parivar people in this list > > > On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 1:45 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul > >wrote: > > > seems Inder Salim has been working in a navratan oil company and tired of > > the left trade union :P How else would he have so much information about > > Advaniji ? > > > > Don't worry Inder Sali, you will have your job; Modi is there still to > take > > care of you. > > > > Manali is a far dream still for you. > > > > On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 1:37 AM, Inder Salim > > wrote: > > > > > better than gratuity, ADvani ji might promote Nano car of Tata Ji > > > > > > and some advertise NAVRATTAN OIL, > > > > > > i am sure he will outwit AmitabBachan on that > > > > > > and earn more bucks, to enjoy trout fish with red wine in Manali with > > > VajPAYEE Ji > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 12:27 AM, Pawan Durani > > > > > wrote: > > > > Great show by Congress ..... > > > > > > > > However the best thing about this election was the worst performance > of > > > Left > > > > in last 40 years. > > > > > > > > Advani Ji now needs a peaceful retirement and perhaps may be rewarded > > > with > > > > Gratuity and other benefits..... > > > > > > > > Pawan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 12:11 AM, Rakesh Iyer < > rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com > > > >wrote: > > > > > > > > >> Dear all > > > >> > > > >> I had gone out, so apologies (if required) for the delay. > > > >> > > > >> Unlike Anupam jee, I don't have problems with people changing their > > > views > > > >> provided they stick to it. So I won't comment on that. > > > >> > > > >> What I will comment on are some interesting thoughts. First of all, > > > India > > > >> has a parliamentary system where people choose their representatives > > on > > > the > > > >> first by post principle, and there are a number of factors at play. > > What > > > is > > > >> certainly not a factor (neither in 2004 nor in 2009 as CSDS surveys > > done > > > by > > > >> Yogendra Yadav repeatedly indicate) is the issue of the Prime > > Minister. > > > >> > > > >> Forget Advani or Manmohan Singh or Rahul Gandhi or Narendra Modi. > Even > > > if > > > >> Lord Krishna, Lord Ram, Prophet Muhammad or Jesus Christ were to > stand > > > for > > > >> the post of Prime Minister, it would hardly make an effect, simply > > > because > > > >> people don't vote for personalities as PM. The major issues before > > > people > > > >> are concerned with their livelihood, be it 'roti, kapda and makan', > > > water, > > > >> health (this means a good hospital with working people and working > > > >> equipments in the village or nearby places), good connection to > cities > > > >> through roads, education, and in this particular issue, two more > > issues > > > >> were > > > >> important: inflation and security. > > > >> > > > >> So actually, the BJP did have issues to fight with: inflation and > > > >> terrorism. > > > >> Except that BJP doesn't have a great record in them either. > > > >> > > > >> As far as inflation is concerned, I can only remind of the 1998 > > > elections > > > >> in > > > >> Delhi, Rajasthan and Madhya Pradesh, where BJP suffered a 440-KV > shock > > > on > > > >> losing state elections. And as for terrorism, we all know how they > > > fared. > > > >> The Kandahar fiasco, the Parliament attack, the Godhra incident (I > > > mention > > > >> this here because the Gujarat BJP unit repeatedly mentioned this as > an > > > >> ISI-sponsored attack, so they can clarify on this. I mention it as > an > > > >> intelligence failure), the Akshardham temple attack, the Raghunath > > > temple > > > >> attack, the bomb blasts in Mulund and Ghatkopar, and so on. So > before > > > >> throwing stones at others, the BJP should look at its' own shallow > > > record > > > >> with respect to terror in the past. > > > >> > > > >> And on top of all this, then they have the foolishness in them to > say > > > that > > > >> L.K. Advani is a strong leader. And to indicate this, they had > posters > > > >> showing Advani clenching his fists! Great! That way we could have > put > > > one > > > >> of > > > >> the wrestlers who had won a bronze medal for us in Olympics 2008 as > > the > > > PM > > > >> candidate! Nobody could have been stronger than that! > > > >> > > > >> Strength doesn't come by repeatedly saying that 'I am strong'. A > > person > > > who > > > >> is strong will never say that about himself; it's others who say > that > > > about > > > >> him. Here we had Advani shooting off his own mouth about how strong > he > > > was. > > > >> And people knew how to respond. > > > >> > > > >> Secondly, contrary to your statements Vedavati jee, the BJP hasn't > > done > > > >> that > > > >> well as expected. In MP, it was expected to win more than 20 seats. > > And > > > >> Congress was not certainly expecting 10 seats which it won there. As > > for > > > >> Rajasthan, BJP has been wiped out when compared to last election. > Only > > > >> Chhatisgarh and Gujarat are the states where BJP has done better > than > > > >> previous times, in addition to Jharkhand of course. > > > >> > > > >> Thirdly, you are right. BJP should have expanded their base. But > base > > > could > > > >> have been expanded by throwing away Hindutva (which ironically > brings > > to > > > >> them supporters like you but alienates many), and trying to become a > > > >> right-centrist party. People would have had no problems if BJP had > no > > > trust > > > >> on Pakistan, wanted India to become a super-power, and had stated > that > > > they > > > >> weren't embarassed on their Hindu roots. > > > >> > > > >> Instead, the BJP just seems hell bent on attacking minorities where > > and > > > >> when > > > >> they can (Kandhamal and Karnataka being best examples) and then > wants > > > >> Muslims and Christians to vote for them! How do they expect a Muslim > > > woman > > > >> to vote for them when under their reign, she was raped in the name > of > > > 'Jai > > > >> Shree Ram' by activists related to the larger parivar to which the > BJP > > > >> belongs? > > > >> > > > >> Similarly on the issue of appeasement. It is right that the Congress > > and > > > >> others have practiced Muslim appeasement.. But does this mean > Muslims > > > should > > > >> be punished? When Muslims haven't progressed, then it's the fault of > > the > > > >> Congress. How are they being then 'pampered'? Vote bank politics is > > > >> actually > > > >> to disadvantage of Muslims, and the BJP should have come to their > > rescue > > > by > > > >> providing them development. Instead, the BJP gave them post-Godhra > as > > > gift. > > > >> > > > >> Fourth. Can Bipin jee inform me (or anybody else for that matter) as > > to > > > the > > > >> proceedings under NDA which point to RTI? I would be glad to know. > > > >> > > > >> Fifth. Swathi jee, I think you raised two vital points. I agree with > > you > > > >> that it's not the Congress or the Left (do read this Bipin jee, this > > is > > > for > > > >> you too) which brought either the NREGA or the RTI, it's the social > > > >> movements which brought them. And I appreciate the courage they > showed > > > in > > > >> their movement and the pressure they exerted, which was accepted by > > the > > > >> Left > > > >> at very late stage, and finally this act was introduced. One must > > never > > > >> forget the kind of pressure exerted by the Times of India-Economic > > > >> Times-Ambani-English mainstream media-their elitist friends combine, > > to > > > >> ensure the NREGA never got passed. > > > >> > > > >> But the larger point also remains that this govt did pass it. Would > > the > > > NDA > > > >> have ever passed it? You know better than me what the answer to that > > > would > > > >> be. Therefore, we must accept their small contribution to getting > this > > > act > > > >> passed and appreciate it, though the first credit to it lies with > all > > > those > > > >> who fought tooth and nail in the first place to get the act passed. > > > >> > > > >> And Bipin jee, the NREGA was brought through a social movement. > Better > > > go > > > >> and find about it rather than cribbing about policies you don't know > a > > > >> thing > > > >> about. And as for your infrastructural development, the people of > > India > > > >> would want NREGA first rather than the Golden Quadrilateral. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> The second point Swathi jee has raised is about an elected PM. > > > Personally, > > > >> I > > > >> would have liked Manmohan Singh jee to fight the election and win > it. > > > That > > > >> would have silenced many people who always look upon him as the > > 'stooge > > > of > > > >> Sonia'. However, unlike others, I wouldn't feel so bad about it. The > > > larger > > > >> issue is always the livelihood of people, and while Sonia may not > have > > > the > > > >> responsibilities of the PM, she has the responsibilities of ensuring > > her > > > >> party wins elections. Therefore, even if the PM doesn't listen, she > > has > > > to > > > >> listen to the voice of India, as she had to in the case of NREGA and > > > RTI. > > > >> > > > >> Therefore, I don't worry much whether Manmohan is elected or not. I > > > though > > > >> have another reason as to why a PM should be elected. > > > >> > > > >> When a PM like say Vajpayee gets elected and then becomes PM, he > knows > > > the > > > >> ways and means to win elections. And therefore he equally knows when > > to > > > >> start something, where to stop (why, where and when), where to set > > > agendas > > > >> and where to start working upon them. Manmohan I don't think has > that > > > >> political experience an elected PM have to manage his allies. This > is > > > clear > > > >> from the way he reacted at different times to the nuclear deal. His > > > >> reactions wouldn't have changed so much had he been an elected PM. > > > Perhaps > > > >> he could have handled the Left better in that case. > > > >> > > > >> But again this is only my speculation. It may be true, or it may be > > > false. > > > >> > > > >> And democracy is not about elections. It is about giving rights to > > > citizens > > > >> and ensure that they are indeed actually provided those rights. So > an > > > >> elected PM or not is not a big issue. > > > >> > > > >> What is are the rights of people to secure their livelihood. > > > >> > > > >> If the BJP gains this huge lesson from this election, I would be the > > > most > > > >> happy person on this planet. And my frustration at this not > happening > > is > > > >> what made me write in a nasty way, for which I am sorry. I would not > > > repeat > > > >> that again. > > > >> > > > >> And if the BJP doesn't learn it, then we need another party to come > at > > > >> centre to fight against Congress and displace BJP from its pole. > > > >> > > > >> And finally, the last word from one of my friends who also happens > to > > be > > > a > > > >> member of this list: > > > >> > > > >> The BJP lost because the revenues obtained through growth are spent > > only > > > to > > > >> further growth. The Congress won because it spent partially the > > revenues > > > >> obtained through growth to bring up the poor to above-subsistence > > level > > > and > > > >> contributed in some measure to equitable development in this manner. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Regards > > > >> > > > >> Rakesh > > > >> _________________________________________ > > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > >> Critiques & Collaborations > > > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai..netwith > > > >> subscribe in the subject header. > > > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > >> > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > > subscribe in the subject header.. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > ------------------------------ > Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter now! From vedavati_jogi at yahoo.com Mon May 18 12:24:29 2009 From: vedavati_jogi at yahoo.com (Vedavati Jogi) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 12:24:29 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Election Forecast Message-ID: <338009.96416.qm@web94707.mail.in2.yahoo.com> bharat is a secular nation only because hindus are in majority. will it remain the same if muslims outnumber hindus? see the condition of minorities in pakistan and bangladesh. today muslims are in minority in our country hence they are talking about secularism are they not speaking in different language in kashmir?   ram mandir has to be built in bharat only it can't be built in pakistan. stop this hindu bashing under the pretext of secularism.   vedavati --- On Mon, 18/5/09, Santhosh Kumar wrote: From: Santhosh Kumar Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Election Forecast To: "Vedavati Jogi" Cc: Date: Monday, 18 May, 2009, 2:00 PM Dear Vedavati Ji, I am not enemy to any body and do not want to be at any time. And I am sure all Hindus are not same. And i definitely find huge difference between a North Indian Hindu and a Kerala Hindu. I, brought up as a Hindu in Kerala, definitely do not like to be part of your Idiosyncrasies and baggages of hatred. (Unfortunately a section of Kerala hindus are now subscribing to.) We, in Kerala, have a history of more than 3000 years of interacting with different, different people from all over the world and understanding and assimilating those cultures. Even accepting many of them into our society, both for good and bad. i would like to be part of that tradition, rather than very parochial, hate trading Pan Indian Hindu identity now proposed and propagated by Sangh parivar and people like you. Thanks for identifying me as a secular one, which i would not dare to do myself because of the responsibilities it bring in. Whether it is a "Hindu Bharat" or "Muslimstan", I would find both unliviable and suffocating. I do not want both. respect and regards, Santhosh On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 10:58 AM, Vedavati Jogi wrote: santoshji,   your mail shows only hindu can be the enemy of hindu i am sure bharat will be muslimstan very soon.   thanks to seculars like you in this nation.     vedavati     --- On Sun, 17/5/09, Santhosh Kumar wrote: From: Santhosh Kumar Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Election Forecast To: "Aditya Raj Kaul" Cc: "sarai list" <> Date: Sunday, 17 May, 2009, 2:59 PM Thank Sree Ram, BJP didn't come to power, otherwise Aditya Raj Kaul Ji would have come personally with a sword or trishul to deal with with people like Inder Salim Ji and other non Sangh parivar people in this list On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 1:45 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > seems Inder Salim has been working in a navratan oil company and tired of > the left trade union :P How else would he have so much information about > Advaniji ? > > Don't worry Inder Sali, you will have your job; Modi is there still to take > care of you. > > Manali is a far dream still for you. > > On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 1:37 AM, Inder Salim wrote: > > > better than gratuity, ADvani ji might promote Nano car of Tata Ji > > > > and some advertise NAVRATTAN OIL, > > > >  i am sure  he will outwit AmitabBachan on that > > > > and earn more bucks, to  enjoy trout fish with red wine in Manali with > >  VajPAYEE Ji > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 12:27 AM, Pawan Durani > > wrote: > > > Great show by Congress ..... > > > > > > However the best thing about this election was the worst performance of > > Left > > > in last 40 years. > > > > > > Advani Ji now needs a peaceful retirement and perhaps may be rewarded > > with > > > Gratuity and other benefits..... > > > > > > Pawan > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 12:11 AM, Rakesh Iyer > >wrote: > > > > > >> Dear all > > >> > > >> I had gone out, so apologies (if required) for the delay. > > >> > > >> Unlike Anupam jee, I don't have problems with people changing their > > views > > >> provided they stick to it. So I won't comment on that. > > >> > > >> What I will comment on are some interesting thoughts. First of all, > > India > > >> has a parliamentary system where people choose their representatives > on > > the > > >> first by post principle, and there are a number of factors at play. > What > > is > > >> certainly not a factor (neither in 2004 nor in 2009 as CSDS surveys > done > > by > > >> Yogendra Yadav repeatedly indicate) is the issue of the Prime > Minister. > > >> > > >> Forget Advani or Manmohan Singh or Rahul Gandhi or Narendra Modi. Even > > if > > >> Lord Krishna, Lord Ram, Prophet Muhammad or Jesus Christ were to stand > > for > > >> the post of Prime Minister, it would hardly make an effect, simply > > because > > >> people don't vote for personalities as PM. The major issues before > > people > > >> are concerned with their livelihood, be it 'roti, kapda and makan', > > water, > > >> health (this means a good hospital with working people and working > > >> equipments in the village or nearby places), good connection to cities > > >> through roads, education, and in this particular issue, two more > issues > > >> were > > >> important: inflation and security. > > >> > > >> So actually, the BJP did have issues to fight with: inflation and > > >> terrorism. > > >> Except that BJP doesn't have a great record in them either. > > >> > > >> As far as inflation is concerned, I can only remind of the 1998 > > elections > > >> in > > >> Delhi, Rajasthan and Madhya Pradesh, where BJP suffered a 440-KV shock > > on > > >> losing state elections. And as for terrorism, we all know how they > > fared. > > >> The Kandahar fiasco, the Parliament attack, the Godhra incident (I > > mention > > >> this here because the Gujarat BJP unit repeatedly mentioned this as an > > >> ISI-sponsored attack, so they can clarify on this. I mention it as an > > >> intelligence failure), the Akshardham temple attack, the Raghunath > > temple > > >> attack, the bomb blasts in Mulund and Ghatkopar, and so on. So before > > >> throwing stones at others, the BJP should look at its' own shallow > > record > > >> with respect to terror in the past. > > >> > > >> And on top of all this, then they have the foolishness in them to say > > that > > >> L.K. Advani is a strong leader. And to indicate this, they had posters > > >> showing Advani clenching his fists! Great! That way we could have put > > one > > >> of > > >> the wrestlers who had won a bronze medal for us in Olympics 2008 as > the > > PM > > >> candidate! Nobody could have been stronger than that! > > >> > > >> Strength doesn't come by repeatedly saying that 'I am strong'. A > person > > who > > >> is strong will never say that about himself; it's others who say that > > about > > >> him. Here we had Advani shooting off his own mouth about how strong he > > was. > > >> And people knew how to respond. > > >> > > >> Secondly, contrary to your statements Vedavati jee, the BJP hasn't > done > > >> that > > >> well as expected. In MP, it was expected to win more than 20 seats. > And > > >> Congress was not certainly expecting 10 seats which it won there. As > for > > >> Rajasthan, BJP has been wiped out when compared to last election. Only > > >> Chhatisgarh and Gujarat are the states where BJP has done better than > > >> previous times, in addition to Jharkhand of course. > > >> > > >> Thirdly, you are right. BJP should have expanded their base. But base > > could > > >> have been expanded by throwing away Hindutva (which ironically brings > to > > >> them supporters like you but alienates many), and trying to become a > > >> right-centrist party. People would have had no problems if BJP had no > > trust > > >> on Pakistan, wanted India to become a super-power, and had stated that > > they > > >> weren't embarassed on their Hindu roots. > > >> > > >> Instead, the BJP just seems hell bent on attacking minorities where > and > > >> when > > >> they can (Kandhamal and Karnataka being best examples) and then wants > > >> Muslims and Christians to vote for them! How do they expect a Muslim > > woman > > >> to vote for them when under their reign, she was raped in the name of > > 'Jai > > >> Shree Ram' by activists related to the larger parivar to which the BJP > > >> belongs? > > >> > > >> Similarly on the issue of appeasement. It is right that the Congress > and > > >> others have practiced Muslim appeasement.. But does this mean Muslims > > should > > >> be punished? When Muslims haven't progressed, then it's the fault of > the > > >> Congress. How are they being then 'pampered'? Vote bank politics is > > >> actually > > >> to disadvantage of Muslims, and the BJP should have come to their > rescue > > by > > >> providing them development. Instead, the BJP gave them post-Godhra as > > gift. > > >> > > >> Fourth. Can Bipin jee inform me (or anybody else for that matter) as > to > > the > > >> proceedings under NDA which point to RTI? I would be glad to know. > > >> > > >> Fifth. Swathi jee, I think you raised two vital points. I agree with > you > > >> that it's not the Congress or the Left (do read this Bipin jee, this > is > > for > > >> you too) which brought either the NREGA or the RTI, it's the social > > >> movements which brought them. And I appreciate the courage they showed > > in > > >> their movement and the pressure they exerted, which was accepted by > the > > >> Left > > >> at very late stage, and finally this act was introduced. One must > never > > >> forget the kind of pressure exerted by the Times of India-Economic > > >> Times-Ambani-English mainstream media-their elitist friends combine, > to > > >> ensure the NREGA never got passed. > > >> > > >> But the larger point also remains that this govt did pass it. Would > the > > NDA > > >> have ever passed it? You know better than me what the answer to that > > would > > >> be. Therefore, we must accept their small contribution to getting this > > act > > >> passed and appreciate it, though the first credit to it lies with all > > those > > >> who fought tooth and nail in the first place to get the act passed. > > >> > > >> And Bipin jee, the NREGA was brought through a social movement. Better > > go > > >> and find about it rather than cribbing about policies you don't know a > > >> thing > > >> about. And as for your infrastructural development, the people of > India > > >> would want NREGA first rather than the Golden Quadrilateral. > > >> > > >> > > >> The second point Swathi jee has raised is about an elected PM. > > Personally, > > >> I > > >> would have liked Manmohan Singh jee to fight the election and win it.. > > That > > >> would have silenced many people who always look upon him as the > 'stooge > > of > > >> Sonia'. However, unlike others, I wouldn't feel so bad about it. The > > larger > > >> issue is always the livelihood of people, and while Sonia may not have > > the > > >> responsibilities of the PM, she has the responsibilities of ensuring > her > > >> party wins elections. Therefore, even if the PM doesn't listen, she > has > > to > > >> listen to the voice of India, as she had to in the case of NREGA and > > RTI. > > >> > > >> Therefore, I don't worry much whether Manmohan is elected or not. I > > though > > >> have another reason as to why a PM should be elected. > > >> > > >> When a PM like say Vajpayee gets elected and then becomes PM, he knows > > the > > >> ways and means to win elections. And therefore he equally knows when > to > > >> start something, where to stop (why, where and when), where to set > > agendas > > >> and where to start working upon them. Manmohan I don't think has that > > >> political experience an elected PM have to manage his allies. This is > > clear > > >> from the way he reacted at different times to the nuclear deal. His > > >> reactions wouldn't have changed so much had he been an elected PM. > > Perhaps > > >> he could have handled the Left better in that case. > > >> > > >> But again this is only my speculation. It may be true, or it may be > > false. > > >> > > >> And democracy is not about elections. It is about giving rights to > > citizens > > >> and ensure that they are indeed actually provided those rights. So an > > >> elected PM or not is not a big issue. > > >> > > >> What is are the rights of people to secure their livelihood. > > >> > > >> If the BJP gains this huge lesson from this election, I would be the > > most > > >> happy person on this planet. And my frustration at this not happening > is > > >> what made me write in a nasty way, for which I am sorry. I would not > > repeat > > >> that again. > > >> > > >> And if the BJP doesn't learn it, then we need another party to come at > > >> centre to fight against Congress and displace BJP from its pole. > > >> > > >> And finally, the last word from one of my friends who also happens to > be > > a > > >> member of this list: > > >> > > >> The BJP lost because the revenues obtained through growth are spent > only > > to > > >> further growth. The Congress won because it spent partially the > revenues > > >> obtained through growth to bring up the poor to above-subsistence > level > > and > > >> contributed in some measure to equitable development in this manner. > > >> > > >> > > >> Regards > > >> > > >> Rakesh > > >> _________________________________________ > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >> Critiques & Collaborations > > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai..net with > > >> subscribe in the subject header. > > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >>  List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > >> > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header.. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > -- > > > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > -- > Aditya Raj Kaul > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter now! Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter http://beta.cricket.yahoo.com From aliens at dataone.in Mon May 18 13:03:42 2009 From: aliens at dataone.in (bipin) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 13:03:42 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] CONGRESSULATIONS References: <008001c9d6be$d2059000$0201a8c0@limo> <341380d00905170041x6d195e04u10188f66c6eceb1a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <008901c9d78a$f89569d0$0201a8c0@limo> Dear Anupam, All the PM of India has elected as MP, while only Singh as PM elected from Rajya Sabha. This time also ha has not contested the election, but will be PM by Rajya Sabha member, that is back door. Chidambaram/Pawar failed to counter heavy increase in the price of essential commodities. They did nothing to counter it, even after recession all the price has gone down, but essential commodities price were not going down, but on the contrary gone up. Who is responsible? Pawar is most corrupted politician ((if you ask proof, no body can prove this) holding powerful lobby of rich farmers and made heavy money this way. Free economy introduced by Manmohansingh from 1991 onwards and took steps of less govt. hindrance for industries was somehow reverted by Chidambaram by introducing black law like FBT. FBT was opposed by almost all the section, but he didn't listen to it. He introduced import license for many surgical items. Increased TDS rates heavily. Chidambaram was influenced by IT practissioner and consultant, CFA agent lobby. After knowing all this, Manmohansingh did nothing, so also he was counted as weak PM, who has no control on his ministers. BJP way of opposition of shouting in the house and not allowed to run the house many times was created bad impression in the voter in this live telecast era. Of course there are many reasons of BJP defeat. One of the reason is immature Varun Gandhi behavior. BJP is very anthuny in projecting PMs. They did mistake to project advani as PM, before about 2 years of election and this time Narendra Modi as next (2014) as PM post. This created negative impact on the voter. Since outside Gujarat, yet Modi acceptability is not there. He has to still work on this part by doing more developmental and fruitful work (than what he did till date) in Gujarat and center stage. This was the key reason of BJP defeat what I believe. Outside WB and Kerala, it is general perception in peoples mind that communists are anti development party. Other perception is that they believe poor people has right to fight for their poorness, farmers has right to fight for their land where they work, but actually belong to other rich farmers. So, the nexalite activities has begun. I don't remember exactly, but in some historical books, in the earlier years I read that communists encourage naxalwad may be in the earlier times and not now, but this is general perception for the communists. This is the reason they did not get room in other states. Many articles of today also sometime elaborate this truth. thanks Bipin ----- Original Message ----- From: "anupam chakravartty" To: "sarai list" Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2009 1:11 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] CONGRESSULATIONS > dear bipin, > > can you substantiate the following claims. i will be really interested if > you could: > > 1. Manmohanji, without electing as MP you made history to be PM again from > back door. ( Don't you think its the constitution that gives such a > provision which allow manmohan to become a legitimate PM?) > > 2. Also its golden chance for you to keep Chidambaram and Pawar out of > finance and agricultural ministry as they were totally failure in this > front > and allowed to increase prices of essential commodity for their selfish > motto. It is little wonder also that voter, even poor voter has not > considered this point while voting. (Chidambaram and Pawar can be kept out > of ministry but how do you say that they would favour the increase in > prices > of essential commodities? and then you go on to cite poor voter has not > considered this point? isnt little absurd to make such a statement. anyway > unless you have proof, i am not to dispute it) > > 3. i am also amazed by your use of the word "backdoor". As in how many > times > the strategies planned by political parties are "frontdoor". > > 4. "Also people want BJP to do constructive opposition role, which was > lacking many cases last time and this is one reason for you to voted out. > This is punishment for you." (BJP has been punished not because of its > role > as opposition. As an opposition, BJP scores more than any of the other > parties including the left especially when it comes matters of national > interest.) > > 5. Its real time to retrospect communists ... naxalites backing. (How do > you > say that Communists as in the CPM and CPI (M) back naxalites?) > > with regards > anupam > > > > On 5/17/09, bipin wrote: >> >> Congratulations to Congress. Well done Manmohansingh, Sonia, Rahul. >> >> Manmohanji, without electing as MP you made history to be PM again from >> back door. Perhaps voter like your generosity, honesty, simplicity (which >> is >> lacking in most of the politician) leads to the victory path. Now you >> have >> got golden chance to prove yourself as stronger PM which was shown by you >> in >> only case of nuclear agreement. Also its golden chance for you to keep >> Chidambaram and Pawar out of finance and agricultural ministry as they >> were >> totally failure in this front and allowed to increase prices of essential >> commodity for their selfish motto. It is little wonder also that voter, >> even >> poor voter has not considered this point while voting. It is good fortune >> and stars for congress. Good Luck. >> >> Congrats Soniaji and your team, backdoor strategists for this victory. >> However, it is lollipop and even you have not expected such huge win this >> time as well as in 2004 also. Both win proved very lucky for you and this >> time you are free to work on real development work without hindrance and >> pressure tactics from allies. >> >> Congrats Rahulji. Youth people has massly voted to your youth appeal. >> This >> is the real reason for congress win. Since it was direct comparison with >> 80 >> year old Advani. Keep it up. Grab this golden opportunity with some real >> developmental work to carry out instead of going to the vote bank >> politics. >> >> Consolation to Advani. You are very good person, good at heart but late >> in >> your mission. Your age was the biggest hindrance and did not get mass >> appeal >> against youth. BJP should rethink and encourage youth. Also people want >> BJP >> to do constructive opposition role, which was lacking many cases last >> time >> and this is one reason for you to voted out. This is punishment for you. >> So >> perform the constructive opposition role and you will be benefited >> definitely in the near future. >> >> Consolation to Communists. Its real time to retrospect communists >> themselves and think on the direction of real development and come out of >> their labor union politics, naxalites backing, US hatred (I am not saying >> US >> is right all the way, but what is their good we must adopt it), >> unnecessary >> minority appeasement. >> >> I salute voter, who shown great maturity by electing one of the national >> party for steady and healthy progress. Voters has experienced two >> coalition >> rule of NDA and UPA and noticed regional/left parties behavior and made >> up >> their mind this time to limit the regional parties. Congratulation to >> voter >> by diminishing regional party and stop them taking undue advantage by >> pressure tactics from politics and by that way saved the huge money which >> was wasted by horse trading. >> >> UP and Bihar voters shown real maturity this time and they cut down all >> criminal MPs were there in last tenure. They did not got permission to >> contest the election and all have came up with their wives to contest, >> but >> they all were defeated this time. This is the real difference what we >> need >> and I am sure UP and Bihar will be on the track of development in the >> very >> near future. >> >> thanks >> BIPIN >> >> N.B Could not trace congress mail address. If anyone can give please >> inform >> me. >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From c.anupam at gmail.com Mon May 18 14:33:34 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 14:33:34 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Election Forecast In-Reply-To: <338009.96416.qm@web94707.mail.in2.yahoo.com> References: <338009.96416.qm@web94707.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <341380d00905180203h6e91aed3ncef28703016a0c50@mail.gmail.com> dear vedavati jee, what's the condition of bangladeshi hindus? can you elaborate? and please do not say that some temple got burnt or looted by a bunch of miscreants that's why bangladeshi hindus conditions are worse. because in case if you say that, than that idea of building a ram mandir is also criminal. - anupam On 5/18/09, Vedavati Jogi wrote: > > bharat is a secular nation only because hindus are in majority. will it > remain the same if muslims outnumber hindus? see the condition of minorities > in pakistan and bangladesh. > today muslims are in minority in our country hence they are talking about > secularism are they not speaking in different language in kashmir? > > ram mandir has to be built in bharat only it can't be built in pakistan. > stop this hindu bashing under the pretext of secularism. > > vedavati > > --- On Mon, 18/5/09, Santhosh Kumar wrote: > > > From: Santhosh Kumar > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Election Forecast > To: "Vedavati Jogi" > Cc: Date: Monday, 18 May, 2009, 2:00 PM > > > Dear Vedavati Ji, > > I am not enemy to any body and do not want to be at any time. > > And I am sure all Hindus are not same. > And i definitely find huge difference between a North Indian Hindu and a > Kerala Hindu. > I, brought up as a Hindu in Kerala, definitely do not like to be part of > your Idiosyncrasies and baggages of hatred. (Unfortunately a section of > Kerala hindus are now subscribing to.) > > We, in Kerala, have a history of more than 3000 years of interacting with > different, different people from all over the world and understanding and > assimilating those cultures. > Even accepting many of them into our society, both for good and bad. > i would like to be part of that tradition, rather than very parochial, hate > trading Pan Indian Hindu identity now proposed and propagated by Sangh > parivar and people like you. > > Thanks for identifying me as a secular one, which i would not dare to do > myself because of the responsibilities it bring in. > > Whether it is a "Hindu Bharat" or "Muslimstan", I would find both > unliviable and suffocating. I do not want both. > > respect and regards, > > Santhosh > > > > On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 10:58 AM, Vedavati Jogi > wrote: > > > > > > > santoshji, > > your mail shows only hindu can be the enemy of hindu > i am sure bharat will be muslimstan very soon. > > thanks to seculars like you in this nation. > > > vedavati > > > --- On Sun, 17/5/09, Santhosh Kumar wrote: > > > From: Santhosh Kumar > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Election Forecast > To: "Aditya Raj Kaul" > Cc: "sarai list" <> > Date: Sunday, 17 May, 2009, 2:59 PM > > > > Thank Sree Ram, BJP didn't come to power, otherwise Aditya Raj Kaul Ji > would > have come personally with a sword or trishul to deal with with people like > Inder Salim Ji and other non Sangh parivar people in this list > > > > On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 1:45 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul >wrote: > > > seems Inder Salim has been working in a navratan oil company and tired of > > the left trade union :P How else would he have so much information about > > Advaniji ? > > > > Don't worry Inder Sali, you will have your job; Modi is there still to > take > > care of you. > > > > Manali is a far dream still for you. > > > > On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 1:37 AM, Inder Salim > wrote: > > > > > better than gratuity, ADvani ji might promote Nano car of Tata Ji > > > > > > and some advertise NAVRATTAN OIL, > > > > > > i am sure he will outwit AmitabBachan on that > > > > > > and earn more bucks, to enjoy trout fish with red wine in Manali with > > > VajPAYEE Ji > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 12:27 AM, Pawan Durani > > > > wrote: > > > > Great show by Congress ..... > > > > > > > > However the best thing about this election was the worst performance > of > > > Left > > > > in last 40 years. > > > > > > > > Advani Ji now needs a peaceful retirement and perhaps may be rewarded > > > with > > > > Gratuity and other benefits..... > > > > > > > > Pawan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 12:11 AM, Rakesh Iyer < > rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com > > > >wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >> Dear all > > > >> > > > >> I had gone out, so apologies (if required) for the delay. > > > >> > > > >> Unlike Anupam jee, I don't have problems with people changing their > > > views > > > >> provided they stick to it. So I won't comment on that. > > > >> > > > >> What I will comment on are some interesting thoughts. First of all, > > > India > > > >> has a parliamentary system where people choose their representatives > > on > > > the > > > >> first by post principle, and there are a number of factors at play. > > What > > > is > > > >> certainly not a factor (neither in 2004 nor in 2009 as CSDS surveys > > done > > > by > > > >> Yogendra Yadav repeatedly indicate) is the issue of the Prime > > Minister. > > > >> > > > >> Forget Advani or Manmohan Singh or Rahul Gandhi or Narendra Modi. > Even > > > if > > > >> Lord Krishna, Lord Ram, Prophet Muhammad or Jesus Christ were to > stand > > > for > > > >> the post of Prime Minister, it would hardly make an effect, simply > > > because > > > >> people don't vote for personalities as PM. The major issues before > > > people > > > >> are concerned with their livelihood, be it 'roti, kapda and makan', > > > water, > > > >> health (this means a good hospital with working people and working > > > >> equipments in the village or nearby places), good connection to > cities > > > >> through roads, education, and in this particular issue, two more > > issues > > > >> were > > > >> important: inflation and security. > > > >> > > > >> So actually, the BJP did have issues to fight with: inflation and > > > >> terrorism. > > > >> Except that BJP doesn't have a great record in them either. > > > >> > > > >> As far as inflation is concerned, I can only remind of the 1998 > > > elections > > > >> in > > > >> Delhi, Rajasthan and Madhya Pradesh, where BJP suffered a 440-KV > shock > > > on > > > >> losing state elections. And as for terrorism, we all know how they > > > fared. > > > >> The Kandahar fiasco, the Parliament attack, the Godhra incident (I > > > mention > > > >> this here because the Gujarat BJP unit repeatedly mentioned this as > an > > > >> ISI-sponsored attack, so they can clarify on this. I mention it as > an > > > >> intelligence failure), the Akshardham temple attack, the Raghunath > > > temple > > > >> attack, the bomb blasts in Mulund and Ghatkopar, and so on. So > before > > > >> throwing stones at others, the BJP should look at its' own shallow > > > record > > > >> with respect to terror in the past. > > > >> > > > >> And on top of all this, then they have the foolishness in them to > say > > > that > > > >> L.K. Advani is a strong leader. And to indicate this, they had > posters > > > >> showing Advani clenching his fists! Great! That way we could have > put > > > one > > > >> of > > > >> the wrestlers who had won a bronze medal for us in Olympics 2008 as > > the > > > PM > > > >> candidate! Nobody could have been stronger than that! > > > >> > > > >> Strength doesn't come by repeatedly saying that 'I am strong'. A > > person > > > who > > > >> is strong will never say that about himself; it's others who say > that > > > about > > > >> him. Here we had Advani shooting off his own mouth about how strong > he > > > was. > > > >> And people knew how to respond. > > > >> > > > >> Secondly, contrary to your statements Vedavati jee, the BJP hasn't > > done > > > >> that > > > >> well as expected. In MP, it was expected to win more than 20 seats. > > And > > > >> Congress was not certainly expecting 10 seats which it won there. As > > for > > > >> Rajasthan, BJP has been wiped out when compared to last election. > Only > > > >> Chhatisgarh and Gujarat are the states where BJP has done better > than > > > >> previous times, in addition to Jharkhand of course. > > > >> > > > >> Thirdly, you are right. BJP should have expanded their base. But > base > > > could > > > >> have been expanded by throwing away Hindutva (which ironically > brings > > to > > > >> them supporters like you but alienates many), and trying to become a > > > >> right-centrist party. People would have had no problems if BJP had > no > > > trust > > > >> on Pakistan, wanted India to become a super-power, and had stated > that > > > they > > > >> weren't embarassed on their Hindu roots. > > > >> > > > >> Instead, the BJP just seems hell bent on attacking minorities where > > and > > > >> when > > > >> they can (Kandhamal and Karnataka being best examples) and then > wants > > > >> Muslims and Christians to vote for them! How do they expect a Muslim > > > woman > > > >> to vote for them when under their reign, she was raped in the name > of > > > 'Jai > > > >> Shree Ram' by activists related to the larger parivar to which the > BJP > > > >> belongs? > > > >> > > > >> Similarly on the issue of appeasement. It is right that the Congress > > and > > > >> others have practiced Muslim appeasement.. But does this mean > Muslims > > > should > > > >> be punished? When Muslims haven't progressed, then it's the fault of > > the > > > >> Congress. How are they being then 'pampered'? Vote bank politics is > > > >> actually > > > >> to disadvantage of Muslims, and the BJP should have come to their > > rescue > > > by > > > >> providing them development. Instead, the BJP gave them post-Godhra > as > > > gift. > > > >> > > > >> Fourth. Can Bipin jee inform me (or anybody else for that matter) as > > to > > > the > > > >> proceedings under NDA which point to RTI? I would be glad to know. > > > >> > > > >> Fifth. Swathi jee, I think you raised two vital points. I agree with > > you > > > >> that it's not the Congress or the Left (do read this Bipin jee, this > > is > > > for > > > >> you too) which brought either the NREGA or the RTI, it's the social > > > >> movements which brought them. And I appreciate the courage they > showed > > > in > > > >> their movement and the pressure they exerted, which was accepted by > > the > > > >> Left > > > >> at very late stage, and finally this act was introduced. One must > > never > > > >> forget the kind of pressure exerted by the Times of India-Economic > > > >> Times-Ambani-English mainstream media-their elitist friends combine, > > to > > > >> ensure the NREGA never got passed. > > > >> > > > >> But the larger point also remains that this govt did pass it. Would > > the > > > NDA > > > >> have ever passed it? You know better than me what the answer to that > > > would > > > >> be. Therefore, we must accept their small contribution to getting > this > > > act > > > >> passed and appreciate it, though the first credit to it lies with > all > > > those > > > >> who fought tooth and nail in the first place to get the act passed. > > > >> > > > >> And Bipin jee, the NREGA was brought through a social movement. > Better > > > go > > > >> and find about it rather than cribbing about policies you don't know > a > > > >> thing > > > >> about. And as for your infrastructural development, the people of > > India > > > >> would want NREGA first rather than the Golden Quadrilateral. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> The second point Swathi jee has raised is about an elected PM. > > > Personally, > > > >> I > > > >> would have liked Manmohan Singh jee to fight the election and win > it.. > > > That > > > >> would have silenced many people who always look upon him as the > > 'stooge > > > of > > > >> Sonia'. However, unlike others, I wouldn't feel so bad about it. The > > > larger > > > >> issue is always the livelihood of people, and while Sonia may not > have > > > the > > > >> responsibilities of the PM, she has the responsibilities of ensuring > > her > > > >> party wins elections. Therefore, even if the PM doesn't listen, she > > has > > > to > > > >> listen to the voice of India, as she had to in the case of NREGA and > > > RTI. > > > >> > > > >> Therefore, I don't worry much whether Manmohan is elected or not. I > > > though > > > >> have another reason as to why a PM should be elected. > > > >> > > > >> When a PM like say Vajpayee gets elected and then becomes PM, he > knows > > > the > > > >> ways and means to win elections. And therefore he equally knows when > > to > > > >> start something, where to stop (why, where and when), where to set > > > agendas > > > >> and where to start working upon them. Manmohan I don't think has > that > > > >> political experience an elected PM have to manage his allies. This > is > > > clear > > > >> from the way he reacted at different times to the nuclear deal. His > > > >> reactions wouldn't have changed so much had he been an elected PM. > > > Perhaps > > > >> he could have handled the Left better in that case. > > > >> > > > >> But again this is only my speculation. It may be true, or it may be > > > false. > > > >> > > > >> And democracy is not about elections. It is about giving rights to > > > citizens > > > >> and ensure that they are indeed actually provided those rights. So > an > > > >> elected PM or not is not a big issue. > > > >> > > > >> What is are the rights of people to secure their livelihood. > > > >> > > > >> If the BJP gains this huge lesson from this election, I would be the > > > most > > > >> happy person on this planet. And my frustration at this not > happening > > is > > > >> what made me write in a nasty way, for which I am sorry. I would not > > > repeat > > > >> that again. > > > >> > > > >> And if the BJP doesn't learn it, then we need another party to come > at > > > >> centre to fight against Congress and displace BJP from its pole. > > > >> > > > >> And finally, the last word from one of my friends who also happens > to > > be > > > a > > > >> member of this list: > > > >> > > > >> The BJP lost because the revenues obtained through growth are spent > > only > > > to > > > >> further growth. The Congress won because it spent partially the > > revenues > > > >> obtained through growth to bring up the poor to above-subsistence > > level > > > and > > > > >> contributed in some measure to equitable development in this manner. > > > >> > > > >> > > > > >> Regards > > > >> > > > >> Rakesh > > > >> _________________________________________ > > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > >> Critiques & Collaborations > > > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai..net with > > > >> subscribe in the subject header. > > > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > >> List archive: > > > >> > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header.. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter now! > > > > Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter > http://beta.cricket.yahoo.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From nagraj.adve at gmail.com Mon May 18 14:33:54 2009 From: nagraj.adve at gmail.com (Nagraj Adve) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 14:33:54 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Climate change in Ladakh In-Reply-To: References: <000001c9d542$50ce6070$3601a8c0@slshetty> Message-ID: <564b2fca0905180203sa1c9dffp8b1ebebdb079b90b@mail.gmail.com> A rather significant piece, by Vandana Shiva, on climate change impacts in Ladakh. Naga Climate Change at the Third Pole May 16, 2009 By *Vandana Shiva * Vandana Shiva's ZSpace Page / ZSpace I write from Ladakh, where we are studying the impact of climate change and evolving participatory adaptation and disaster preparedness strategies with local communities. The melting of snow in the Arctic and Antartic due to global warming and climate change is reported frequently. However, the melting of the Himalayan glaciers goes largely unreported, even though more people are impacted. Presently 10% of the earth's landmass is covered with snow, with 84.16% in the Antartic, 13.9% in Greenland, 0.77% in the Himalaya, 0.51% in North America, 0.37% in Africa, 0.15% in South America, 0.06% in Europe. Outside the polar region, Himalaya has the maximum concentration of glaciers. 9.04% of the Himalaya is covered with glaciers, with 30-40% additional area being covered with snow. The glaciers of the Himalaya are the Third Pole. They feed the giant rivers of Asia, and support half of humanity. In Ladakh, the northern most region of India, all life depends on snow. Ladakh is a high altitude desert with only 50mm of rainfall. Ladakh's water comes from the snow melt - both the snow that falls on the land and provides the moisture for farming and pastures, as well as the snow of the glaciers that gently melts and feeds the streams that are the lifeline of the tiny settlements. For centuries snow has supported human survival in Ladakh. Climate change is changing this. Less snow is falling, so there is less moisture for growing crops. In village after village, we are witnessing the end of farming where snow melt on the fields was the only source of moisture. Reduced snowfall also means less snow in glaciers, and less streamflow. The shorter period of snowfall prevents the snow from turning into hard ice crystals. Therefore more of the glacier is liable to melt when the summer comes. Climate change has also led to rain, rather than snow, falling even at higher altitudes. This also accelerates the melting of glaciers. Meantime, heavy rainfall which was unknown in the high altitude desert has become more frequent, causing flash floods, washing away homes and fields, trees and livestock. Climate refugees are already being created in the Himalaya in villages such as Rongjuk. As one of the displaced women said "when we see the black clouds, we feel afraid." The arrival of black clouds and disappearance of white snow in the cold desert is how climate change is entering the life of the Ladakhi communities. They did not cause the pollution, but they are its victims. This is the direct and cruel face of climate injustice - the polluters continue to pollute, they are insulated from the impact of their own actions. Others, thousands of miles away bear the brunt of greenhouse gas pollution. India has 5243 glaciers covering an area of 37579 km2 and containing 142.88 km2 of ice. The Gangotri glacier, the source of the Ganga is receding at 20-23 miles per year. Millam glacier is receding at 30m/yr, Dokrani is retreating at 15-20m/yr. The receding of glaciers has accelerated with global warming. The rate of retreat of the gangotri glacier has tripled in the last three years. Some of the most devastating effects of glacial meltdown occures when glacial lakes overflow and the phenomena of Glacial Lake Outburst Floods (GLOFs) take place. Climate change thus initially leads to widespread flooding, but over time, as the snow disappears there will be draught in the summer. In the Ganga, the loss of glacier meltdown would reduce July - September flows by two thirds, causing water shortages for 500 million people and 37 percent of India's irrigated land. Glacial runoff in the Himalayas is the largest source of fresh water for nothern India and provides more than half the water to the Ganga. Glacial runoff is also the source of the Indus, the Brahmaputra, the Mekong, the Irrawady and the Yellow and Yantze rivers. According to the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), "glaciers in the Himayalas are receding faster than in any other part of the world and if the present rate continues, the likelihood of them disappearing by the year 2035 and perhaps sooner is very high if the earth keep getting warmer at the current rate". According to the IPCC report the total area of glaciers in the Himalaya will shrink from 193051 square miles to 38,000 square miles by 2035. The lives of billions are at stake. That is why we have started a participatory process for Himalayan communities to engage in the discussion on climate change, including issues of climate justice, adaptation and disaster preparedness. In terms of numbers of people impacted, climate change at the Third Pole is the most far reaching. And no climate change policy or treaty will be complete without including the Himalayan communities. The Government of India has set up a National Climate Action Plan which has eight missions. One of the missions is for sustaining the Himalayan Ecosystem. However, the Himalayan communities are missing in the mission. As the Action Plan states "A mission for sustaining the Himalayan ecosystem will be launched to evolve management measures for sustaining and safeguarding the Himalayan glacier and mountain ecosystem. Himalayas, being the source of key perennial rives, the Mission would, inter-alia, seek to understand, whether and the extent to which, the Himalayan glaciers are in recession and how the problem could be addressed. This will require the joint effort of climatologists, glaciologists and other experts." People only get introduced to protect forests "community based management of these ecosystems will be promoted with incentives to community organizations and panchayats for protection and enhancement of forested lands". However climate change is about more than forests. It is about flash floods and draught, it is about planning for a future which is not like today. For this people need to be partners in monitoring and planning. No government machinery, no matter how sophisticated, can know every mountain, every glacier, every stream, and every field. People are experts on local ecosystems and the changes in their ecosystems due to a destabilized climate. It is this expertise which needs to be mobilized in order to evolve timely strategies for adaption. From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Mon May 18 14:50:43 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 14:50:43 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Election Forecast In-Reply-To: <341380d00905180203h6e91aed3ncef28703016a0c50@mail.gmail.com> References: <338009.96416.qm@web94707.mail.in2.yahoo.com> <341380d00905180203h6e91aed3ncef28703016a0c50@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Vedavati Before pointing fingers at others, look at oneself. Considering the demand of Hindus like you, if BJP were to come to power (either as coalition or on their own), the sword would be hanging on the head of the minorities as to when their women would be raped, their children would be left parent-less and when their lives would be destroyed. It's certainly good that UPA has come to power, and now we have one less issue to focus upon (which is minority rights), at least upto a certain extent. When the NDA was in power, we had to focus on jokers like Praveen Togadia, Ashok Singhal, Acharya Dharmendra, some more useless sadhus and mahants, and also Modi mania. Unnecessarily at some point of time or other, there would be some nonsense shilanyas and some daan or the other. At least under the UPA, such useless antics are out. While Kandhamal, Karnataka and Mangalore indeed have taken place, at least a widespread pogrom has not taken place. And as for Bangladesh and Pakistan, thanks to Hindus like you, I can say comfortably that if people like you were to come to power (in any party or form), we would become a Hindu rashtra where our minorities would be living worse than second class citizens. And you are not a secular anyway, and you are a Hindu. India is secular not because Hindus are in majority. India is secular because majority of the people live as a secular society does (irrespective of whether they believe in secularism). They don't want conflicts for umpteen no. of reasons. And they can see through the political game of our Hindutva and fundamentalist Islamic friends. As for Muslim nations which are secular, go to Turkey, Indonesia and Malaysia. Regards Rakesh PS: I wonder where our Modi bhai is, now that results are out for the general election. Everybody is talking about Advani not talking to media. Seems Modi is another version of Advani. When things are going against him, he is the first one (like Advani) to hide and run away. And he is supposedly the 'next PM' candidate of BJP in 2014. Jaisa Guru, waisa chela........jai ho!! From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Mon May 18 15:11:42 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 15:11:42 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] CONGRESSULATIONS In-Reply-To: <008901c9d78a$f89569d0$0201a8c0@limo> References: <008001c9d6be$d2059000$0201a8c0@limo> <341380d00905170041x6d195e04u10188f66c6eceb1a@mail.gmail.com> <008901c9d78a$f89569d0$0201a8c0@limo> Message-ID: Dear Bipin jee It's our Constitution which allows people to become PM even if they are not elected, so while you can call it 'back door' entry, according to Constitution, such backdoor entries are legal. If the BJP was so worried about it, they could have called for a private members' bill in the Parliament stating that only members of the Lok Sabha can become the PM. This would have at least demonstrated their seriousness to the cause. After all, they shouted in 2004 election campaigns that they will bring a law against any person of foreign origin occupying the top posts, but when they did have time from 1998 to 2004, they were sleeping! As for the BJP, it has some great achievements to its credit, who can forget these: 1) The biggest contributions of its PM candidate were to destroy Babri Masjid, to sleep while the Parliament was attacked, to cringe when one of the CM's of his party was ensuring that a pogrom was taking place properly in his state so that his party could win the assembly election, to ensure that controversial speeches were given properly during the Gujarat Assembly election campaign in 2002, and also to bring POTA which did not stop terrorism but ensured innocents languished in jail. Not to forget, after the Mumbai attacks, he neither attended the all-party meeting, nor did he follow his own words when he said that he will not criticize the govt to show that India is united. 2) The best characteristic of the PM candidate of the BJP is to run and hide, or resign when attacked. For the last few years, he was attacking Manmohan Singh for being 'weak and effete'. His chela, Shree Narendra Modi also joined him in this. Manmohan responded in kind first in the trust vote (unfortunately he was not allowed to even put his speech thanks to the opposition, so he tabled his speech), and then during the election campaign. And our Advani jee couldn't even respond. As for his chela sahab, he spoke some rubbish in Gujarat, but by then even his chela realized the Guru had been beaten fair and square. 3) The BJP has had better contributions to our society as well, both ideologically and practically. On one hand, they have ensured that their ideology makes Indian people understand what our culture is: like beating women for moral policing (Mangalore pub attacks), vandalism in the name of protecting Hindu religion (like burning churches or desecrating them as in Karnataka, Goa, Madhya Pradesh and even Orissa), or showing how Hindus can be strong by taking revenge (killing tribals, desecrating churches and even in some cases raping nuns as in Orissa). Of course, this is a continuation of what they did in Gujarat, albeit, on a small scale. Now I can understand properly what Indian culture is: a reflection of stone age mentality. I sometimes wonder if people like Arun Jaitley are in the right party or not. 4) The BJP has also contributed to our democracy through many ways. Parliament adjournments were the norm even when Congress was in opposition to NDA, but for the first time in the history of the Parliament, it was boycotted by the BJP when they were in opposition. Great! The Parliament is supposed to be meet to corner the govt, but our opposition gave the chance instead for the govt. to pat itself on the back in front of the people. Great contribution indeed! 5) The BJP's biggest contribution to the nation is to show the definition of strong: if you can shout at the top of your voice, show your fist and chest and go around giving rabble rousing speeches, you are strong (like Modi jee). Otherwise, you are a weasel who should be thrown out. Great Sir! Probably the BJP forgot that this is life, not Indian movie. Only in Indian movies are heroes supposedly doing such kind of things (giving such speeches at top of the voice, showing their muscles and beating down their opponents). And our people may like sometimes to be just like heroes, but in real life, they do realize that these are just fantasies and their hero should also have many more and better qualities than that. The BJP should come out of its day dream. Of course, these are in addition to their earlier contributions (and to some extent Congress has also done some share of their contributions to this): like educating societies about how to conduct mass rapes of women with police on your side, how to loot stores and not worry about getting caught, how to burn people alive and so on. Indeed Bipin jee, their contributions have been great. I am not a great person though. And I don't want greatness in my society or for my nation. Junta zameen par rehti hai, aasman mein taare aur panchi hi milte hain. Mujhe zameen par hi rehna hai. Behtar hoga hum normal parties chunein bajay society ko aasman par le jaani waali, jahan se sab ko oundhe munh girna pad jaaye. Regards Rakesh From chintangirishmodi at gmail.com Mon May 18 15:28:15 2009 From: chintangirishmodi at gmail.com (Chintan) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 15:28:15 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Signposts Message-ID: This might be of interest to some of you http://www.signposts.co.in/ From anujaghosalkar at yahoo.com Mon May 18 16:42:21 2009 From: anujaghosalkar at yahoo.com (anuja ghosalkar) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 04:12:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Request for Proposals- India Foundation for the Arts Message-ID: <526409.51820.qm@web55408.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Hi, I am happy to inform you that we have just put out a Request for Proposals under the Arts Research and Documentation programme. Please do visit our website: www.indiaifa.org and forward it to people who you think might be interested in applying. Regards, Anuja Ghosalkar Programme Executive Arts Research and Documentation From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Mon May 18 16:53:38 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 16:53:38 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Election Forecast In-Reply-To: References: <338009.96416.qm@web94707.mail.in2.yahoo.com> <341380d00905180203h6e91aed3ncef28703016a0c50@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear all Yesterday I had a chat with Anupam jee, and what I understood was that I had contradicted myself somewhere in that mail. On one hand I had stated that Gujarat keeps electing Modi for those reasons which are hated outside. On the other I had said that a section of Gujarati society believes in those views. Both are somewhat contradictory statements. Therefore, let me correct that contradiction here. There is a section of Gujarati society which likes the way Modi behaves (his arrogance, his antics, his rabble rousing speeches which are often vitriolic, his cliche-based statements, and his attack on personal opponents). And this section also votes for him or his party based on such things. They also believe that Hindus are weak and effete as of now, and they should be strong (or masculine in nature). So therefore Modi is supported by this section. At the same time, he can't be just elected by these people alone, simply because there is no proof of the same. Any party coming back to power has numerous factors attached to it. These can include the nature of the candidate of a constituency, development works undertaken by the incumbent MLA or incumbent govt., the Hindutva issue (so also the issue I tracked), and many others. Therefore, I can't and shouldn't be making a general statement that Gujarat elects Modi only and only on this issue. However, the fact that this section supports him, and Modi behaves as per their liking is very unfortunate. In contrast to how Rahul Gandhi behaved (when he commended Advani for fighting a strong election) and how Advani himself behaved (by at least accepting defeat gracefully and congratulating the victors), here we have a CM who is vitriolic at best, and when his party has been defeated, he is nowhere to be found in the media news. (Earlier he was in the limelight) The second point is that when I say Gujarat elects Modi, it seems as if 100% people of Gujarat vote for Modi (a friend pointed out this to me) which is not the case. In 2002, about slightly more than 50% of those who voted, voted for BJP. They didn't necessarily vote for Modi again. Therefore, I am sorry to put forth conclusions like these. In 2007, less than 50% of those who voted, voted for BJP. The last point is that not only Gujarati, but other societies also have such characters. Even across the world they are there. However, in Gujarat, they have now taken part of the dominant discourse in the mainstream media and they are the dominant voice being heard, which is not necessarily the case in other states. Therefore, when the focus first goes on searching such voices, it is to Gujarat that I turn. However the issue still stands. Can this section of society realize that the values they admire are actuallly detrimental to the growth of any society and even abhorred in America (the only superpower of the world as of now)? Can this section of society realize that strength comes not from speeches and fist showing but by reactions to tough situations (Strangely when faced with defeat, Modi bhai is hiding from the media)? Can this section of society realize that Indian culture means that one is gracious to the defeated as well? And can this section of society realize that Muslims are not traitors but are as much Indians as Hindus are? There lies the answer for us to become a developed society. Regards Rakesh From chintangirishmodi at gmail.com Mon May 18 17:21:50 2009 From: chintangirishmodi at gmail.com (Chintan) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 17:21:50 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Call for Papers - Children's Literature in Language Education - Hildesheim University, Germany In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I received this on a mailing list, and think that it might interest some of you. -- >From http://www.childrenslit.de/ Children's Literature in Language Education – from Picture Books to Young Adult Fiction Hildesheim University, Germany International Conference 25th – 27th February 2010 Hildesheim University and the Young Learner & Teenager SIG, IATEFL, are organising an exciting and innovative international TEFL conference on children’s literature which will cover a wide area in English language teaching, from the youngest learners to advanced language students. We are delighted to have secured plenary speakers of international renown for each one of the strands. We invite proposals for PRESENTATIONS – which will be grouped into one of the following STRANDS 1, 2 AND 3, and WORKSHOPS/READINGS – by authors and storytellers in STRAND 4. STRAND 1. EFL extensive reading – reading for pleasure Plenary: STEPHEN KRASHEN, Professor Emeritus University of Southern California STRAND 2. Original fiction for young adults and graded readers Plenary: multi-award-winning author (NN) STRAND 3. Picture books, poems, nursery rhymes and non-fiction for children Plenary: Prof. Dr. EVA BURWITZ-MELZER, University of Giessen STRAND 4. Workshops with storytellers, illustrators and writers for children Plenary: Dr. ALAN MALEY & ANDREW WRIGHT on The Power of Story and Poetry Call for Papers English language teaching (EFL and ESL) is usually considered to embody a key role in education as a whole – also as an opportunity for the development of intercultural learning and tolerance, parallel to mother tongue education. High quality children’s literature can help readers learn to map the world story by story, in fine overlays of stirring narrative, while they successively acquire skills such as visual, critical, literary and intercultural literacy. Children’s literature and young adult English-language literature across the world displays a stunning diversity, yet often remains entirely undiscovered by English language teachers, and consequently also by English learners. We consider this is against the best interests of children, young language learners and society as a whole, as the important contribution of reading to language acquisition and world knowledge, through young adult literature as well as graded readers, has been well documented. While English learning is so time-consuming throughout schooling and beyond, it is surely unacceptable that the potential for humanist discourse that arises through interaction between language learners and first-rate children’s literature is so manifestly under-realised. The more complex picture books with their layers of meanings – often hidden in the pictures and picture/ word interplays – are highly suitable for thoughtful literary exchanges and the negotiation of meaning, and are a fine opportunity for rich English-medium education of young learners. Picture books pave the way towards extensive reading – the most pleasurable path to familiarity with diverse meanings and language patterns. If children and teenagers, whose English language exposure revolves solely around openings for functional communicative learning, are later plunged straight into adult literature as advanced learners, they miss out on the affirmative, motivating and self-esteem-promoting educational potential of children’s and young adult literature, which is a vital apprenticeship to life and to becoming a reader. The need for a synergy between mother tongue literature education and English medium literature education, particularly in teacher training, has surely arrived. The International Conference Children's Literature in Language Education – from Picture Books to Young Adult Fiction intends to disseminate information and provide a forum for the exchange of ideas and experiences on the power of literature for the young; approaches to children’s literature and young adult literature as a bridge to reading beyond school; gender considerations – the different attitudes of different readers – and the resulting consequences with regard to the canon of literary texts for EFL; and the debate around original children’s literature and graded readers. Please send your proposal (max 300 words in English), affiliation and brief biodata (max 50 words) to both luetge at uni-hildesheim.de and janbla at arcor.de by 31.07.2009. Please keep your eye on the conference website for updates - on invited speakers - on conference registration arrangements and fees for presenting and non-presenting delegates - accommodation advice Precise info will be posted by 15.08.09. From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Mon May 18 18:03:29 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 05:33:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Election Forecast Message-ID: <526821.95343.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Rakesh   "And unlike Gujarati society (or a section of Gujarati society), other societies are not worried about their masculinity that they have to portray it again and again........" You are right. Within the limits of my 'sight' and 'understanding' your comment was a racist one.   Kshmendra   --- On Sun, 5/17/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: From: Rakesh Iyer Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Election Forecast To: "anupam chakravartty" Cc: "sarai list" Date: Sunday, May 17, 2009, 2:05 PM Dear Kshamendra I think my comment can or may be seen as racist by some and non-racist by others. It depends on your sight. and understanding. My comment was not on the Gujarati society at whole, but on those who elect BJP on the reason that Muslims have to be taught their lesson and that Hindus are weak and effete. It's not a comment on those who vote for BJP due to progress, their development, or petty or personal gains. For them we can think and discuss differently. However I used both 'the Gujarati society'  and 'a section of the Gujarati society' simply because either of them may be true. And if it hurts Gujaratis, they should actually introspect on why Modi gets elected for certain reasons in Gujarat, and the very same reasons ensure that BJP never gets power at the Centre. (like Modi's antics, his high-vitriolic speeches and so on, which at national level ensure NDA's defeat time and again). And they should ponder whether the value systems which have allowed Modi to flower, can actually help the society at large or not, Are these values the hallmark of a developed society, and a developed country, which we wish to become by 2020? Otherwise, Gujarat will keep electing BJP, and the Centre will still be the UPA's. The BJP doesn't seem to analyze this question ever, so Gujaratis only have the choice to look at it (Or again a section of Gujaratis, and here you can understand which section I refer to). Because after all, it hurts me not that Modi gets elected again and again; it hurts me that a section of the Gujarati middle class feels that Muslims deserved post-Godhra, that they are Pakistan supporters, that Congress will bring progress only to Muslims (which it never did in the first place to a substantial extent). I dont' want Modi to be dismissed arbitarily, but what I want is that society (or a section of society) to introspect whether it is doing right or wrong by believing such value systems. And if still people feel offended, I apologize. Regards Rakesh _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Mon May 18 18:37:56 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 18:37:56 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Election Forecast In-Reply-To: <526821.95343.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <526821.95343.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Kshamendra Considering the limits I set in that mail, if you feel it is racist, you are welcome to have that view. I don't feel I have painted the entire society with a single brush, therefore I don't feel it is racist. It's a personal take on people having a particular viewpoint, who can be found in every society, but at present are having a field day it seems, giving dominant discourses in the Gujarati society. Thanks to them, instead of Gandhi, Modi and Godse are relevant. Regards Rakesh From shuddha at sarai.net Mon May 18 18:43:24 2009 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 18:43:24 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Election Forecast In-Reply-To: <47e122a70905170207n6f7212e6m5cde2a815bf696fa@mail.gmail.com> References: <514676.38420.qm@web94715.mail.in2.yahoo.com> <6353c690905161050x3e66e47gc9c2d4cd91d20786@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70905161157x566074e6wea1d5feb85340601@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70905161307ob789c4fuc509a4f873d92af9@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690905161315q2dd709bapf02aad1a5d6f21e6@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70905170027u25e0944ewce405090a2bfdf06@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00905170114s38527500s6ebd06fa0bd5998c@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70905170207n6f7212e6m5cde2a815bf696fa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <01DAC7D8-E5DE-4331-9516-7A2A1DB0C3E3@sarai.net> Dear All, The debate on the elections on this list is lively and interesting, and an instance (in the main) of people genuinely (from all positions on the political spectrum) being reflective rather than scoring polemical points. I hope the list attains a new maturity from this experience. I think one of the points that we could think a little more about is the utter rout that the so called 'Left Front' and their allies have faced, especially in their home bastions of West Bengal and Kerala. I personally see this as a very positive development, as it marks a significant development in people trusting their own experience of the negativity of the so called 'Left Front's' (mis) rule, rather than being swept away by their sentimental attatchments to the mainstream left's symbolic repertoire, or a distant memory of a time when the parties of the left expressed popular sentiments and issues. The bloated, arrogant, cynical, power hungry and unprincipled nature of the current generation of 'Left' leaders has been explicitly recognized, and their ability to 'engineer' election results has clearly failed them in the face of a determined electorate. This is the best thing that could have happened to all those who retain a commitment in our society to a global future without classes, without the depredations of the state, without the rape of nature, without wars and standing armies and with dignity for all working people regardless of race, sex, ethnicity, sexual orientation and religious or non religious affiliation. This moment can mark for us, from where we stand, the possibility of the renewal of a forward looking, peaceful and richly democratic content of the global socialist-communist vision, inflected with a new ecological understanding. I think we have reasons to rejoice that the moribund apparatus of the CPI(M) and its exhausted allies will no longer have to bear the burden of our hopes for the renewal of a left vision in India. I also doubt that the secterian milieu of Maoism in India can give rise to the expansiveness that this vision will need. In my personal view, the renewal of the left in India (and in South Asia as a whole) will need to be imagined anew, and afresh, and free from all past encumbrances. I look forward to discussion on this list of what the contents of such a vision could be. best Shuddha > Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From c.anupam at gmail.com Mon May 18 18:50:42 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 18:50:42 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Election Forecast In-Reply-To: <526821.95343.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <526821.95343.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <341380d00905180620q33dd9618o502b273a901d7917@mail.gmail.com> Dear all, We have been discussing gujarat, so i thought of putting up a small note as im writing from Vadodara. Especially if we consider chiman bhai's time, when things went topsy turvy. This was the phase when BJP from the urban pockets extended its reach to rural Gujarat. however, for a long time the tribal belt was out of BJP's reach. when shankarsinh vaghela contested with BJP party ticket in 1991 from Godhra assembly seat (panchmahals district, considered the part of the tribal belt), he had won this seat. however, in 1996, he lost the election which party insiders and the lesser-known anti Modi lobby believed to have got religious leaders (read sadhus) against Vaghela. Subsequently, in 1998, vaghela turned to congress, even as he claims that he is close to RSS and often terms Modi as a fake sanghi. As you think Rakesh, Gujaratis do not really vote for that macho identity that BJP tries to portray, even though it looks like when you watch modi's speeches and people going gaga over his words as jingoistic. but increasingly, most of the gujaratis consider modi as an empty barrel just like advani. full of words and always banking on the IAS cadres, as gujarat over the years had an illustrious batch of officers who shaped the state of infact, one of the main reasons why Patan BJP candidate lost the elections was because of his tainted image. similarly, bardoli seat, which had candidates who were really brilliant. There was 29-year old Ritesh Vasava, an IAS aspirant from BJP pitted against the winner, Tushar Chowdhary, who performed really well in the last five years, which is why Bardoli electorate voted for Chowdhary. Gujaratis are just like any other people straddled between devil and the deep sea. you can say that BJP in certain ways has manufactured its own opposition inside the state that would create mandate for it to rule for some years. the real issues such as discrepancies in the claims made by modi in Vibrant gujarat this year, rampant pollution in Ankleshwar and bharuch district, diamond workers' plight, water issues in tribal belt especially in Dahod district, high rate of crimes against women in urban areas such as ahmedabad and vadodara, skewed sex ratio in saurashtra, fishermen's plight and securing the coastline and other border outposts are still major issues in the state, which needs to addressed immediately by whoever is there in power in centre or state. regards anupam On 5/18/09, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > Dear Rakesh > > "And unlike Gujarati society (or a section of Gujarati society), other > societies are not worried about their masculinity that they have to portray > it again and again........" > > You are right. Within the limits of my 'sight' and 'understanding' your > comment was a racist one. > > Kshmendra > > > --- On Sun, 5/17/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > > > From: Rakesh Iyer > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Election Forecast > To: "anupam chakravartty" > Cc: "sarai list" > Date: Sunday, May 17, 2009, 2:05 PM > > > Dear Kshamendra > > I think my comment can or may be seen as racist by some and non-racist by > others. It depends on your sight. and understanding. > > My comment was not on the Gujarati society at whole, but on those who elect > BJP on the reason that Muslims have to be taught their lesson and that > Hindus are weak and effete. It's not a comment on those who vote for BJP > due > to progress, their development, or petty or personal gains. For them we can > think and discuss differently. > > However I used both 'the Gujarati society' and 'a section of the Gujarati > society' simply because either of them may be true. And if it hurts > Gujaratis, they should actually introspect on why Modi gets elected for > certain reasons in Gujarat, and the very same reasons ensure that BJP never > gets power at the Centre. (like Modi's antics, his high-vitriolic speeches > and so on, which at national level ensure NDA's defeat time and again). And > they should ponder whether the value systems which have allowed Modi to > flower, can actually help the society at large or not, Are these values the > hallmark of a developed society, and a developed country, which we wish to > become by 2020? > > Otherwise, Gujarat will keep electing BJP, and the Centre will still be the > UPA's. The BJP doesn't seem to analyze this question ever, so Gujaratis > only > have the choice to look at it (Or again a section of Gujaratis, and here > you > can understand which section I refer to). > > Because after all, it hurts me not that Modi gets elected again and again; > it hurts me that a section of the Gujarati middle class feels that Muslims > deserved post-Godhra, that they are Pakistan supporters, that Congress will > bring progress only to Muslims (which it never did in the first place to a > substantial extent). I dont' want Modi to be dismissed arbitarily, but what > I want is that society (or a section of society) to introspect whether it > is > doing right or wrong by believing such value systems. > > And if still people feel offended, I apologize. > > Regards > > Rakesh > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Mon May 18 19:50:12 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 19:50:12 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Election Forecast In-Reply-To: <341380d00905180620q33dd9618o502b273a901d7917@mail.gmail.com> References: <526821.95343.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <341380d00905180620q33dd9618o502b273a901d7917@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Shuddha and Anupam You have raised certain important issues in your mail, and one has to look at both of them. *Anupam jee* You stated that my projection or identification with Gujarat in the sense I portrayed in my previous mails is wrong. I can accept that, but then as I said, the dominant discourse in Gujarat (run by the mainstream local Gujarati media in collusion with Modi, coupled with support of a certain section of society there) has created that image which has portrayed Gujarat in that light. And it's time Gujarat moves away from that image. It becomes even more ironic for me when I compare Modi with the CM of my own state, Shivraj Singh Chauhan. When one listens to their election speeches, one sees a world of difference. I can accept their styles of speeches (I liked Modi commenting that Congress must be congratulated for creating slums which led to Slumdog Millionaire winning the Oscars), what I can't understand is the attack of opponents by Modi (particularly Sonia and Rahul Gandhi as well as Manmohan too in this election). When I see that, I begin to remember the state in which I am living right now, Tamil Nadu. Here too, we have the 'Kalaignar' and the 'Amma' having zero respect for each other and fighting elections as if they were in a wrestling match. I have heard Shivraj speak, and what seemed so good about it was the way he first asked for apologies from people if his govt. had done anything wrong in the previous 5 years. I wonder if Modi would have the courage to ask apologies from Gujarati people like that. I still remember the haughty nature of the BJP when they won Gujarat in 2002. What is there to be haughty about? Do election victories make our rulers so haughty? Is it necessary? At the same time, it's a failure of the Congress in Gujarat to forget the issues to focus upon (those which you have stated like the pollution in Ankleshwar and high crime rates against women in cities). Instead of focussing to become a B-team of Hindutva (which they have become under Vaghela), they would do better to focus on these issues and imaginatively use them to send the BJP packing, or at least argue constructively on issues related to people. *Shuddha jee* You have put important issues into focus. The problem with the Left is that they only focus on equity. This when translated in economic paradigm, means that there is more focus on distribution of resources rather than generating resources in the first place. The result is that in West Bengal itself, the focus was on distribution of land (and increase in agricultural production was attributed to it in the 80's), but then the agricultural production couldn't increase beyond a point simply because either the reforms were partial, or because for economically beneficial agriculture to be taken up, the size of the land can't go down beyond a point critically. So the Left was actually asking all the people to remain poor, instead of a particular section remaining poor. The BJP on the other hand, being a rightist party, believes that the focus should mainly be on resource generation rather than distribution of resources. For them, the revenues earned through resource generation or usage of resources should be spent on things which only increase further revenues. So, revenues should be spent on giving loans to rich farmers at 7% (only farmers who have a guarantee can get loans after all), or for Golden Quadrilateral scheme and so on. The result is that the poor are left out of the entire machinery, while for the rich, nothing can be better off than this, so India shines for the rich and not for the poor. The Congress to a certain extent has realized that one has to focus on both, growth and distribution of resources and revenue. This can be realized through on one hand, introducing and continuing with schemes which can increase the growth (like giving loans to farmers and Golden Quadrilateral scheme), and also introduce measures to distribute the revenue obtained through such growth (as both cash and kind/goods, like the NREGA and the BPL schemes). Infact, even in exit polls, people have been telling journalists that NREGA was an important reason why the poor voted for the Congress(like the NDTV has accepted, so also sources related to Congress). And this ultimately should be the criterion. Therefore, instead of supporting the BJP or the Left policies, we have to look at the 'middle of the road' policies. And we should take the Left's stand wherever the distribution of resources can take place among the poor and they can be benefited. And we should support the Right's stand wherever growth can take place by and large without affecting the people (especially the poor and the downtrodden). This is where we should go different from the Gandhian perspective of the economy. Because Gandhi believed that a person can be rich only by taking away the resources of the poor. In other words the Reliance (and other rich) is responsible for India's poverty! But that is not true. Hence, I am not asking that the Reliance must be hated, as the Left wants me to. Neither should I love Reliance, as the Right wants me to. What I want is that Reliance pays taxes, and this can be used through schemes like NREGA, backed by RTI to look at transparency of schemes, so that the poor get the money through employment and their purchasing power increases and their lives become better. I have no objections with Reliance wanting to build more plants, and increasing their revenue, as it helps me to get more taxes and more revenue as well. Really, the Left needs to think on these lines and redefine themselves. Their idea of encouraging industry in Bengal is not wrong , but they should realize that policy making is one thing, and implementing it on ground is another. They can't afford another Singur or Nandigram fiasco again. Of course, they have to change themselves in more ways as you stated, for which I would write something later. Regards Rakesh From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Mon May 18 20:00:08 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 07:30:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Arundhati Roy in Karachi Message-ID: <493853.44302.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Inder   1. When I wrote "AR does not want her 'Taliban Boy' dealt with", it was directly taken from the words ascribed to AR " Unless we deal with that factory, dealing with the boy does not help us"    So, do not ask me but ask AR what she meant by "dealing with the boy". Ask yourself why your interpreted "dealing with" in the manner you did.   Do not credit authorship to me for your own inferences and extractions of meanings. Your delusional interpretations or suspicions about "nuances" are a product of your mind alone. If your mind is delicately balanced on the thin edge of your own pre-concieved notions (about others), pre-judgements and suspicions then it will topple down into any depths of making unethical statements.   I was not 'reflecting' upon anything. I asked a simple question that if AR does not want her "Taliban Boy" to be "dealt with" and wants to first go about understanding the Taliban-Factory, what does she propose should be done about the "Taliban Boy" in the meantime. Should we ask the "Taliban Boy" in the meantime to " kill some more; behead some more; rape some more?"   You seem to have missed out on the crux of my criticism of AR "NO SOLUTIONS TO OFFER":   """A rebel with many causes to whine about with no solutions to offer. Since her grip on realities is uncertain, all that she can indulge in is vague intellectualising. That has always been in demand. Greater the obtuseness, easier it is to be highly thought of by unthinking minds."""""   2. You can 'tease' as much as you want if that what you get your kicks from. It does not bother me. What does bother me is your (seemingly malicious) habit of misrepresenting another person's words.   3. You are free to tell me that I myself cannot 'find the obvious' in what I myself speak about. You are free to don the robes of Mind-Reader, Diviner and Prophet. Look within yourself too.   4. Very frankly I do not much care for your 'deep regards' and 'respect' for whichever facet of mine. I would value it only if I respected your honesty (irrespective of whether we agreed or disagreed in our comments on topics and issues).   Kshmendra     --- On Sat, 5/16/09, Inder Salim wrote: From: Inder Salim Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Arundhati Roy in Karachi To: "reader-list" Date: Saturday, May 16, 2009, 9:14 PM Dear KK i quote you again, AR (on the 'Taliban Boy'): "He was made in a factory that is producing this kind of mind(set). (The question is) who owns that factory, who funds it? Unless we deal with that factory, dealing with the boy doesn’t help us." > > KK: So what should be done about the 'Taliban Boy' while AR indulges in her vaguness of 'who owns the factory, who funds it?'? AR does not want her "Taliban Boy" dealt with. Should we in the meantime invite her 'Taliban Boy' to kill some more; behead some more; rape some more? please explain what KK is reflecting on the above by AR, ( KK is Kshmendra Kaul )  there are other finer nuances in your mail where one can extract meaning they way i have. just tell me, you write " AR does not want her ' Taliban boy' dealt with. now what is the meaning, if not the way i interpreted, what is other meaning, please let me know, yes, if  you feel that i tease you too much, please spare the  reader list, and come straight with me, i dont have any fears it amuses me, that a well informed person like you cant find the obvious in what he himself is speaking about i remember De Bono he gave example of two dogs one who has a sharp smelling nose, and the other whose nose is dull to reading smells. they both suddenly are in front of a old castle with hundred os rooms. in one of the room there is some dead animal, some food for the two dogs, both them go in , the dog with a sharp smelling power quickly goes in the finds the food, and eats it too, but finds it difficult to find the way out, while the other dog, takes his own time,  because of his vagueness, his stupid nose, had to check all the rooms, but finally  manages to  find the food, and also finds the exit door, too, This is without any malice towards you or anybody else on the list, with love and regards needless to say that i have deep regards for your above average, a shap zeal to reflect the mails which are often potent with thought, so my respect for that at the same time, inder salim Dear Kshmendra On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 6:07 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Arundhati Roy (AR) is in fashion. Rebel in fashion. A rebel with many causes to whine about with no solutions to offer. Since her grip on realities is uncertain, all that she can indulge in is vague intellectualising. That has always been in demand. Greater the obtuseness, easier it is to be highly thought of by unthinking minds. > > Zubeida Mustafa knowingly or unwittingly brings out the vaguness of AR when she says "Roy’s advice to avoid being ‘with us or against us’ has implications she didn’t elucidate". Zubeida goes on to say "In times when action is needed and a position has to be taken — even if verbally — inaction or neutrality unwittingly props up the status quo." > > How shallow minded AR is, gets highlighted in what are ostensibly quotes from her speech(es) at the WAF meet. > > AR: "In India, there are two kinds of terrorism: one is Islamic terrorism and the other Maoist terrorism. But this term terrorism, we must ask, what do they mean by it. " > > KK: Note the word "they". Who is this "they"? Why did AR fail to mention that there is also public discourse on 'Hindu terrorism' and 'Economic terrorism'.  Even on 'State terrorism' to some degree. What is this "they" she is trying to create? Or, is she trying to say there is no 'terrorism' in India and that it is just a figment of the imagination of the "they"? > > AR: "I’m here to understand what you mean when you say Taliban." > > KK : AR also spoke about a Taliban Boy. How did she know the boy was "Taliban" if she is yet to understand what they mean by "Taliban" in Pakistan? She seems to have her own understanding of that term "Taliban". Why doesnt she tell us what she means by "Taliban"? > > AR (On Taliban): "Do you mean a militant? Do you mean an ideology? Exactly what is it that is being fought? That needs to be clarified. > I think both needs to be fought. But if it’s an ideology it has to be fought differently, while if it’s a person with a gun then it has to be fought differently." > > KK: Is AR such an ignorant idiot that she cannot see that militancy finds it's justifications and reassurances from the ideology? What is shameful about AR is that she uses the term 'militant' for those who have indulged in the most heinous of acts as Taliban and that has gravitated many women in Pakistan (under threat to their lives) to step-out and speak-out against the Taliban. > > AR: "In India, they have been fighting insurgencies military since 1947 and it has become a more dangerous place." > > KK: Note the "they" word again. But, what would AR have India do with those that she herself calls "insurgencies"? AR vagueness without any solutions. And, some doublespeake. In India she often hints at support for separatists. Why does she not espouse for India similar attitudes that she advocates in Pakistan where she proclaims "I think both needs to be fought" (whether militant or ideology)? > > AR (on the 'Taliban Boy'): "He was made in a factory that is producing this kind of mind(set). (The question is) who owns that factory, who funds it? Unless we deal with that factory, dealing with the boy doesn’t help us." > > KK: So what should be done about the 'Taliban Boy' while AR indulges in her vaguness of 'who owns the factory, who funds it?'? AR does not want her "Taliban Boy" dealt with. Should we in the meantime invite her 'Taliban Boy' to kill some more; behead some more; rape some more? > > AR: "The RSS has infiltrated the (Indian) army as much as various kinds of Wahabism or other kinds of religious ideology have infiltrated the ISI or the armed forces in Pakistan." > > KK: Note the words "as much". AR seems to know much more about the Indian Army then the rest of India knows for her to bring about an equivalence in the 'religion infiltration' into the Armed Forces of India and Pakistan. More likely is that she knows very little about the anxieties in Pakistan about the extent to which there is widespread suspicion (in Pakistan and elsewhere) about the continued influence exerted within the ISI and the Armed Forces of Pakistan by hardline religious ideology inspite of major efforts (especially by Musharraf) to unshackle them. > > Kshmendra > http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/pakistan/11-arundhati-roy-and-the-waf--02   AND   http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/pakistan/arundhati-roy-sal-02   From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Mon May 18 20:00:09 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 07:30:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Arundhati Roy in Karachi Message-ID: <73941.45418.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Inder   1. When I wrote "AR does not want her 'Taliban Boy' dealt with", it was directly taken from the words ascribed to AR " Unless we deal with that factory, dealing with the boy does not help us"    So, do not ask me but ask AR what she meant by "dealing with the boy". Ask yourself why your interpreted "dealing with" in the manner you did.   Do not credit authorship to me for your own inferences and extractions of meanings. Your delusional interpretations or suspicions about "nuances" are a product of your mind alone. If your mind is delicately balanced on the thin edge of your own pre-concieved notions (about others), pre-judgements and suspicions then it will topple down into any depths of making unethical statements.   I was not 'reflecting' upon anything. I asked a simple question that if AR does not want her "Taliban Boy" to be "dealt with" and wants to first go about understanding the Taliban-Factory, what does she propose should be done about the "Taliban Boy" in the meantime. Should we ask the "Taliban Boy" in the meantime to " kill some more; behead some more; rape some more?"   You seem to have missed out on the crux of my criticism of AR "NO SOLUTIONS TO OFFER":   """A rebel with many causes to whine about with no solutions to offer. Since her grip on realities is uncertain, all that she can indulge in is vague intellectualising. That has always been in demand. Greater the obtuseness, easier it is to be highly thought of by unthinking minds."""""   2. You can 'tease' as much as you want if that what you get your kicks from. It does not bother me. What does bother me is your (seemingly malicious) habit of misrepresenting another person's words.   3. You are free to tell me that I myself cannot 'find the obvious' in what I myself speak about. You are free to don the robes of Mind-Reader, Diviner and Prophet. Look within yourself too.   4. Very frankly I do not much care for your 'deep regards' and 'respect' for whichever facet of mine. I would value it only if I respected your honesty (irrespective of whether we agreed or disagreed in our comments on topics and issues).   Kshmendra     --- On Sat, 5/16/09, Inder Salim wrote: From: Inder Salim Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Arundhati Roy in Karachi To: "reader-list" Date: Saturday, May 16, 2009, 9:14 PM Dear KK i quote you again, AR (on the 'Taliban Boy'): "He was made in a factory that is producing this kind of mind(set). (The question is) who owns that factory, who funds it? Unless we deal with that factory, dealing with the boy doesn’t help us." > > KK: So what should be done about the 'Taliban Boy' while AR indulges in her vaguness of 'who owns the factory, who funds it?'? AR does not want her "Taliban Boy" dealt with. Should we in the meantime invite her 'Taliban Boy' to kill some more; behead some more; rape some more? please explain what KK is reflecting on the above by AR, ( KK is Kshmendra Kaul )  there are other finer nuances in your mail where one can extract meaning they way i have. just tell me, you write " AR does not want her ' Taliban boy' dealt with. now what is the meaning, if not the way i interpreted, what is other meaning, please let me know, yes, if  you feel that i tease you too much, please spare the  reader list, and come straight with me, i dont have any fears it amuses me, that a well informed person like you cant find the obvious in what he himself is speaking about i remember De Bono he gave example of two dogs one who has a sharp smelling nose, and the other whose nose is dull to reading smells. they both suddenly are in front of a old castle with hundred os rooms. in one of the room there is some dead animal, some food for the two dogs, both them go in , the dog with a sharp smelling power quickly goes in the finds the food, and eats it too, but finds it difficult to find the way out, while the other dog, takes his own time,  because of his vagueness, his stupid nose, had to check all the rooms, but finally  manages to  find the food, and also finds the exit door, too, This is without any malice towards you or anybody else on the list, with love and regards needless to say that i have deep regards for your above average, a shap zeal to reflect the mails which are often potent with thought, so my respect for that at the same time, inder salim Dear Kshmendra On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 6:07 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Arundhati Roy (AR) is in fashion. Rebel in fashion. A rebel with many causes to whine about with no solutions to offer. Since her grip on realities is uncertain, all that she can indulge in is vague intellectualising. That has always been in demand. Greater the obtuseness, easier it is to be highly thought of by unthinking minds. > > Zubeida Mustafa knowingly or unwittingly brings out the vaguness of AR when she says "Roy’s advice to avoid being ‘with us or against us’ has implications she didn’t elucidate". Zubeida goes on to say "In times when action is needed and a position has to be taken — even if verbally — inaction or neutrality unwittingly props up the status quo." > > How shallow minded AR is, gets highlighted in what are ostensibly quotes from her speech(es) at the WAF meet. > > AR: "In India, there are two kinds of terrorism: one is Islamic terrorism and the other Maoist terrorism. But this term terrorism, we must ask, what do they mean by it. " > > KK: Note the word "they". Who is this "they"? Why did AR fail to mention that there is also public discourse on 'Hindu terrorism' and 'Economic terrorism'.  Even on 'State terrorism' to some degree. What is this "they" she is trying to create? Or, is she trying to say there is no 'terrorism' in India and that it is just a figment of the imagination of the "they"? > > AR: "I’m here to understand what you mean when you say Taliban." > > KK : AR also spoke about a Taliban Boy. How did she know the boy was "Taliban" if she is yet to understand what they mean by "Taliban" in Pakistan? She seems to have her own understanding of that term "Taliban". Why doesnt she tell us what she means by "Taliban"? > > AR (On Taliban): "Do you mean a militant? Do you mean an ideology? Exactly what is it that is being fought? That needs to be clarified. > I think both needs to be fought. But if it’s an ideology it has to be fought differently, while if it’s a person with a gun then it has to be fought differently." > > KK: Is AR such an ignorant idiot that she cannot see that militancy finds it's justifications and reassurances from the ideology? What is shameful about AR is that she uses the term 'militant' for those who have indulged in the most heinous of acts as Taliban and that has gravitated many women in Pakistan (under threat to their lives) to step-out and speak-out against the Taliban. > > AR: "In India, they have been fighting insurgencies military since 1947 and it has become a more dangerous place." > > KK: Note the "they" word again. But, what would AR have India do with those that she herself calls "insurgencies"? AR vagueness without any solutions. And, some doublespeake. In India she often hints at support for separatists. Why does she not espouse for India similar attitudes that she advocates in Pakistan where she proclaims "I think both needs to be fought" (whether militant or ideology)? > > AR (on the 'Taliban Boy'): "He was made in a factory that is producing this kind of mind(set). (The question is) who owns that factory, who funds it? Unless we deal with that factory, dealing with the boy doesn’t help us." > > KK: So what should be done about the 'Taliban Boy' while AR indulges in her vaguness of 'who owns the factory, who funds it?'? AR does not want her "Taliban Boy" dealt with. Should we in the meantime invite her 'Taliban Boy' to kill some more; behead some more; rape some more? > > AR: "The RSS has infiltrated the (Indian) army as much as various kinds of Wahabism or other kinds of religious ideology have infiltrated the ISI or the armed forces in Pakistan." > > KK: Note the words "as much". AR seems to know much more about the Indian Army then the rest of India knows for her to bring about an equivalence in the 'religion infiltration' into the Armed Forces of India and Pakistan. More likely is that she knows very little about the anxieties in Pakistan about the extent to which there is widespread suspicion (in Pakistan and elsewhere) about the continued influence exerted within the ISI and the Armed Forces of Pakistan by hardline religious ideology inspite of major efforts (especially by Musharraf) to unshackle them. > > Kshmendra > http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/pakistan/11-arundhati-roy-and-the-waf--02   AND   http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/pakistan/arundhati-roy-sal-02   From c.anupam at gmail.com Mon May 18 21:00:09 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 21:00:09 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] a tiger died Message-ID: <341380d00905180830i1597b9crd9a057ea17741983@mail.gmail.com> I chose to shoot the tiger. It was troubling me for last few weeks. I chose because I did not have any other option. I mean, come on, I am a man and he was a tiger. He said he would live in the jungle and hunt. But I wanted to enter the jungle, because I also loved the jungle in my own way. But the tiger always loved hunting and killing other animals. I could do with plants and fruits. The tiger could not. The tiger was my enemy out and out because he was the enemy of all the peace loving animals who fed on grass, fruits and plants, except for a few, who just wanted to thrive on meat. I loved fruits and plants, therefore I killed the tiger. End of the matter. From anansi1 at earthlink.net Tue May 19 11:26:06 2009 From: anansi1 at earthlink.net (Paul D. Miller) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 01:56:06 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [Reader-list] 13 People who made torture the American way Message-ID: <9644922.1242712567177.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net> interesting article. I actually think that there were alot more people over the course of the 20th century - one of the bloodiest epochs of human history - that dealt with alot more "volume" of people, but hey... this is just the sideshow of the spectacle of imperial decline. Ladies and gents, we present "The Torture 13." Paul/Dj Spooky The 13 People Who Made Torture Possible The Bush administration's Torture 13. They authorized it, they decided how to implement it, and they crafted the legal fig leaf to justify it. by Marcy Wheeler Published on Monday, May 18, 2009 by Salon.com Distributed by Common Dreams http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/05/18-13 On April 16, the Obama administration released four memos that were used to authorize torture in interrogations during the Bush administration. When President Obama released the memos, he said, "It is our intention to assure those who carried out their duties relying in good faith upon legal advice from the Department of Justice that they will not be subject to prosecution." Yet 13 key people in the Bush administration cannot claim they relied on the memos from the DOJ's Office of Legal Counsel. Some of the 13 manipulated the federal bureaucracy and the legal process to "preauthorize" torture in the days after 9/11. Others helped implement torture, and still others helped write the memos that provided the Bush administration with a legal fig leaf after torture had already begun. The Torture 13 exploited the federal bureaucracy to establish a torture regime in two ways. First, they based the enhanced interrogation techniques on techniques used in the U.S. military's Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape (SERE) program. The program -- which subjects volunteers from the armed services to simulated hostile capture situations -- trains servicemen and -women to withstand coercion well enough to avoid making false confessions if captured. Two retired SERE psychologists contracted with the government to "reverse-engineer" these techniques to use in detainee interrogations. The Torture 13 also abused the legal review process in the Department of Justice in order to provide permission for torture. The DOJ's Office of Legal Counsel (OLC) played a crucial role. OLC provides interpretations on how laws apply to the executive branch. On issues where the law is unclear, like national security, OLC opinions can set the boundary for "legal" activity for executive branch employees. As Jack Goldsmith, OLC head from 2003 to 2004, explains it, "One consequence of [OLC's] power to interpret the law is the power to bestow on government officials what is effectively an advance pardon for actions taken at the edges of vague criminal statutes." OLC has the power, Goldsmith continues, to dispense "get-out-of-jail-free cards." The Torture 13 exploited this power by collaborating on a series of OLC opinions that repeatedly gave U.S. officials such a "get-out-of-jail-free card" for torturing. Between 9/11 and the end of 2002, the Torture 13 decided to torture, then reverse-engineered the techniques, and then crafted the legal cover. Here's who they are and what they did: 1. Dick Cheney, vice president (2001-2009) On the morning of 9/11, after the evacuation of the White House, Dick Cheney summoned his legal counsel, David Addington, to return to work. The two had worked together for years. In the 1980s, when Cheney was a congressman from Wyoming and Addington a staff attorney to another congressman, Cheney and Addington argued that in Iran-Contra, the president could ignore congressional guidance on foreign policy matters. Between 1989 and 1992, when Dick Cheney was the elder George Bush's secretary of defense, Addington served as his counsel. He and Cheney saved the only known copies of abusive interrogation technique manuals taught at the School of the Americas. Now, on the morning of 9/11, they worked together to plot an expansive grab of executive power that they claimed was the correct response to the terrorist threat. Within two weeks, they had gotten a memo asserting almost unlimited power for the president as "the sole organ of the Nation in its foreign relations," to respond to the terrorist attacks. As part of that expansive view of executive power, Cheney and Addington would argue that domestic and international laws prohibiting torture and abuse could not prevent the president from authorizing harsh treatment of detainees in the war against terror. But Cheney and Addington also fought bureaucratically to construct this torture program. Cheney led the way by controlling who got access to President Bush -- and making sure his own views preempted others'. Each time the torture program got into trouble as it spread around the globe, Cheney intervened to ward off legal threats and limits, by badgering the CIA's inspector general when he reported many problems with the interrogation program, and by lobbying Congress to legally protect those who had tortured. Most shockingly, Cheney is reported to have ordered torture himself, even after interrogators believed detainees were cooperative. Since the 2002 OLC memo known as "Bybee Two" that authorizes torture premises its authorization for torture on the assertion that "the interrogation team is certain that" the detainee "has additional information he refuses to divulge," Cheney appears to have ordered torture that was illegal even under the spurious guidelines of the memo. 2. David Addington, counsel to the vice president (2001-2005), chief of staff to the vice president (2005-2009) David Addington championed the fight to argue that the president -- in his role as commander in chief -- could not be bound by any law, including those prohibiting torture. He did so in two ways. He advised the lawyers drawing up the legal opinions that justified torture. In particular, he ran a "War Council" with Jim Haynes, John Yoo, John Rizzo and Alberto Gonzales (see all four below) and other trusted lawyers, which crafted and executed many of the legal approaches to the war on terror together. In addition, Addington and Cheney wielded bureaucratic carrots and sticks -- notably by giving or withholding promotions for lawyers who supported these illegal policies. When Jack Goldsmith withdrew a number of OLC memos because of the legal problems in them, Addington was the sole administration lawyer who defended them. Addington's close bureaucratic control over the legal analysis process shows he was unwilling to let the lawyers give the administration a "good faith" assessment of the laws prohibiting torture. 3. Alberto Gonzales, White House counsel (2001-2005), and attorney general (2005-2008) As White House counsel, Alberto Gonzales was nominally in charge of representing the president's views on legal issues, including national security issues. In that role, Gonzales wrote and reviewed a number of the legal opinions that attempted to immunize torture. Most important, in a Jan. 25, 2002, opinion reportedly written with David Addington, Gonzales paved the way for exempting al-Qaida detainees from the Geneva Conventions. His memo claimed the "new kind of war" represented by the war against al-Qaida "renders obsolete Geneva's strict limitations on questioning of enemy prisoners." In a signal that Gonzales and Addington adopted that position to immunize torture, Gonzales argued that one advantage of not applying the Geneva Convention to al-Qaida would "substantially reduce the threat of domestic criminal prosecution under the War Crimes Act." The memo even specifically foresaw the possibility of independent counsels' prosecuting acts against detainees. 4. James Mitchell, consultant Even while Addington, Gonzales and the lawyers were beginning to build the legal framework for torture, a couple of military psychologists were laying out the techniques the military would use. James Mitchell, a retired military psychologist, had been a leading expert in the military's SERE program. In December 2001, with his partner, Bruce Jessen, Mitchell reverse-engineered SERE techniques to be used to interrogate detainees. Then, in the spring of 2002, before OLC gave official legal approval to torture, Mitchell oversaw Abu Zubaydah's interrogation. An FBI agent on the scene describes Mitchell overseeing the use of "borderline torture." And after OLC approved waterboarding, Mitchell oversaw its use in ways that exceeded the guidelines in the OLC memo. Under Mitchell's guidance, interrogators used the waterboard with "far greater frequency than initially indicated" -- a total of 183 times in a month for Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and 83 times in a month for Abu Zubaydah. 5. George Tenet, director of Central Intelligence (1997-2004) As director of the CIA during the early years of the war against al-Qaida, Tenet had ultimate management responsibility for the CIA's program of capturing, detaining and interrogating suspected al-Qaida members and briefed top Cabinet members on those techniques. Published reports say Tenet approved every detail of the interrogation plans: "Any change in the plan -- even if an extra day of a certain treatment was added -- was signed off on by the Director." It was under Tenet's leadership that Mitchell and Jessen's SERE techniques were applied to the administration's first allegedly high-value al-Qaida prisoner, Abu Zubaydah. After approval of the harsh techniques, CIA headquarters ordered Abu Zubaydah to be waterboarded even though onsite interrogators believed Zubaydah was "compliant." Since the Bybee Two memo authorizing torture required that interrogators believe the detainee had further information that could only be gained by using torture, this additional use of the waterboard was clearly illegal according to the memo. 6. Condoleezza Rice, national security advisor (2001-2005), secretary of state (2005-2008) As national security advisor to President Bush, Rice coordinated much of the administration's internal debate over interrogation policies. She approved (she now says she "conveyed the authorization") for the first known officially sanctioned use of torture -- the CIA's interrogation of Abu Zubaydah -- on July 17, 2002. This approval was given after the torture of Zubaydah had begun, and before receiving a legal OK from the OLC. The approval from the OLC was given orally in late July and in written form on Aug. 1, 2002. Rice's approval or "convey[ance] of authorization" led directly to the intensified torture of Zubaydah. 7. John Yoo, deputy assistant attorney general, Office of Legal Counsel (2001-2003) As deputy assistant attorney general of OLC focusing on national security for the first year and a half after 9/11, Yoo drafted many of the memos that would establish the torture regime, starting with the opinion claiming virtually unlimited power for the president in times of war. In the early months of 2002, he started working with Addington and others to draft two key memos authorizing torture: Bybee One (providing legal cover for torture) and Bybee Two (describing the techniques that could be used), both dated Aug. 1, 2002. He also helped draft a similar memo approving harsh techniques for the military completed on March 14, 2003, and even a memo eviscerating Fourth Amendment protections in the United States. The Bybee One and DOD memos argue that "necessity" or "self-defense" might be used as defenses against prosecution, even though the United Nations Convention Against Torture explicitly states that "no exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat or war ... may be invoked as a justification of torture." Bybee Two, listing the techniques the CIA could use in interrogation, was premised on hotly debated assumptions. For example, the memo presumed that Abu Zubaydah was uncooperative, and had actionable intelligence that could only be gotten through harsh techniques. Yet Zubaydah had already cooperated with the FBI. The memo claimed Zubaydah was mentally and physically fit to be waterboarded, even though Zubaydah had had head and recent gunshot injuries. As Jack Goldsmith described Yoo's opinions, they "could be interpreted as if they were designed to confer immunity for bad acts." In all of his torture memos, Yoo ignored key precedents relating both specifically to waterboarding and to separation of powers. 8. Jay Bybee, assistant attorney general, Office of Legal Counsel (2001-2003) As head of the OLC when the first torture memos were approved, Bybee signed the memos named after him that John Yoo drafted. At the time, the White House knew that Bybee wanted an appointment as a Circuit Court judge; after signing his name to memos supporting torture, he received such an appointment. Of particular concern is the timing of Bybee's approval of the torture techniques. He first approved some techniques on July 24, 2002. The next day, Jim Haynes, the Defense Department's general counsel, ordered the SERE unit of DOD to collect information including details on waterboarding. While the record is contradictory on whether Haynes or CIA General Counsel John Rizzo gave that information to OLC, on the day they did so, OLC approved waterboarding. One of the documents in that packet identified these actions as torture, and stated that torture often produced unreliable results. 9. William "Jim" Haynes, Defense Department general counsel (2001-2008) As general counsel of the Defense Department, Jim Haynes oversaw the legal analysis of interrogation techniques to be used with military detainees. Very early on, he worked as a broker between SERE professionals and the CIA. His office first asked for information on "exploiting" detainees in December 2001, which is when James Mitchell is first known to have worked on interrogation plans. And later, in July 2002, when CIA was already using torture with Abu Zubaydah but needed scientific cover before OLC would approve waterboarding, Haynes ordered the SERE team to produce such information immediately. Later Haynes played a key role in making sure some of the techniques were adopted, with little review, by the military. He was thus crucial to the migration of torture to Guantanamo and then Iraq. In September 2002, Haynes participated in a key visit to Guantanamo (along with Addington and other lawyers) that coincided with requests from DOD interrogators there for some of the same techniques used by the CIA. Haynes ignored repeated warnings from within the armed services about the techniques, including statements that the techniques "may violate torture statute" and "cross the line of 'humane' treatment." In October 2002, when the legal counsel for the military's Joint Chiefs of Staff attempted to conduct a thorough legal review of the techniques, Haynes ordered her to stop, because "people were going to see" the objections that some in the military had raised. On Nov. 27, 2002, Haynes recommended that Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld authorize many of the requested techniques, including stress positions, hooding, the removal of clothing, and the use of dogs -- the same techniques that showed up later in the abuse at Abu Ghraib. 10. Donald Rumsfeld, secretary of defense (2001-2006) As secretary of defense, Rumsfeld signed off on interrogation methods used in the military, notably for Abu Ghraib, Bagram Air Force Base and Guantanamo Bay. With this approval, the use of torture would move from the CIA to the military. A recent bipartisan Senate report concluded that "Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld's authorization of interrogation techniques at Guantanamo Bay was a direct cause of detainee abuse there." Rumsfeld personally approved techniques including the use of phobias (dogs), forced nudity and stress positions on Dec. 2, 2002, signing a one-page memo prepared for him by Haynes. These techniques were among those deemed torture in the Charles Graner case and the case of "20th hijacker" Mohammed al-Qahtani. Rumsfeld also personally authorized an interrogation plan for Moahmedou Ould Slahi on Aug. 13, 2003; the plan used many of the same techniques as had been used with al-Qahtani, including sensory deprivation and "sleep adjustment." And through it all, Rumsfeld maintained a disdainful view on these techniques, at one point quipping on a memo approving harsh techniques, "I stand for eight to 10 hours a day. Why is standing limited to four hours?" 11. John Rizzo, CIA deputy general counsel (2002-2004), acting general counsel of the Central Intelligence Agency (2001-2002, 2004-present) As deputy general counsel and then acting general counsel for the CIA, John Rizzo's name appears on all of the known OLC opinions on torture for the CIA. For the Bybee Two memo, Rizzo provided a number of factually contested pieces of information to OLC -- notably, that Abu Zubaydah was uncooperative and physically and mentally fit enough to withstand waterboarding and other enhanced techniques. In addition, Rizzo provided a description of waterboarding using one standard, while the OLC opinion described a more moderate standard. Significantly, the description of waterboarding submitted to OLC came from the Defense Department, even though NSC had excluded DOD from discussions on the memo. Along with the description of waterboarding and other techniques, Rizzo also provided a document that called enhanced methods "torture" and deemed them unreliable -- yet even with this warning, Rizzo still advocated for the CIA to get permission to use those techniques. 12. Steven Bradbury, principal deputy assistant attorney general, OLC (2004), acting assistant attorney general, OLC (2005-2009) In 2004, the CIA's inspector general wrote a report concluding that the CIA's interrogation program might violate the Convention Against Torture. It fell to Acting Assistant Attorney General Steven Bradbury to write three memos in May 2005 that would dismiss the concerns the IG Report raised -- in effect, to affirm the OLC's 2002 memos legitimizing torture. Bradbury's memos noted the ways in which prior torture had exceeded the Bybee Two memo: the 183 uses of the waterboard for Khalid Sheikh Mohammed in one month, the gallon and a half used in waterboarding, the 20 to 30 times a detainee is thrown agains the wall, the 11 days a detainee had been made to stay awake, the extra sessions of waterboarding ordered from CIA headquarters even after local interrogators deemed Abu Zubaydah to be fully compliant. Yet Bradbury does not consider it torture. He notes the CIA's doctors' cautions about the combination of using the waterboard with a physically fatigued detainee, yet in a separate memo approves the use of sleep deprivation and waterboading in tandem. He repeatedly concedes that the CIA's interrogation techniques as actually implemented exceeded the SERE techniques, yet repeatedly points to the connection to SERE to argue the methods must be legal. And as with the Bybee One memo, Bradbury resorts to precisely the kind of appeal to exceptional circumstances -- "used only as necessary to protect against grave threats" -- to distinguish U.S. interrogation techniques from the torture it so closely resembles around the world. 13. George W. Bush, president (2001-2009) While President Bush maintained some distance from the torture for years -- Cheney describes him "basically" authorizing it -- he served as the chief propagandist about its efficacy and necessity. Most notably, on Sept. 6, 2006, when Bush first confessed to the program, Bush repeated the claims made to support the Bybee Two memo: that Abu Zubaydah wouldn't talk except by using torture. And in 2006, after the CIA's own inspector general had raised problems with the program, after Steven Bradbury had admitted all the ways that the torture program exceeded guidelines, Bush still claimed it was legal. "[They] were designed to be safe, to comply with our laws, our Constitution and our treaty obligations. The Department of Justice reviewed the authorized methods extensively, and determined them to be lawful." With this statement, the deceptions and bureaucratic games all came full circle. After all, it was Bush who, on Feb. 7, 2002, had declared the Geneva Conventions wouldn't apply (a view the Supreme Court ultimately rejected). Bush's inaction in torture is as important as his actions. Bush failed to fulfill legal obligations to notify Congress of the torture program. A Senate Intelligence timeline on the torture program makes clear that Congress was not briefed on the techniques used in the torture program until after Abu Zubaydah had already been waterboarded. And in a 2003 letter, then House Intelligence ranking member Jane Harman shows that she had not yet seen evidence that Bush had signed off on this policy. This suggests President Bush did not provide the legally required notice to Congress, violating National Security Decisions Directive-286. What Bush did not say is as legally important as what he did say. Yet, ultimately, Bush and whatever approval he gave the program is at the center of the administration's embrace of torture. Condoleezza Rice recently said, "By definition, if it was authorized by the president, it did not violate our obligations in the Convention Against Torture." While Rice has tried to reframe her statement, it uses the same logic used by John Yoo and David Addington to justify the program, the shocking claim that international and domestic laws cannot bind the president in times of war. Bush's close allies still insist if he authorized it, it couldn't be torture. (c) 2009 Salon.com Marcy Wheeler writes her blog, emptywheel, for FireDogLake.com From shuddha at sarai.net Mon May 18 18:43:24 2009 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 18:43:24 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Election Forecast In-Reply-To: <47e122a70905170207n6f7212e6m5cde2a815bf696fa@mail.gmail.com> References: <514676.38420.qm@web94715.mail.in2.yahoo.com> <6353c690905161050x3e66e47gc9c2d4cd91d20786@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70905161157x566074e6wea1d5feb85340601@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70905161307ob789c4fuc509a4f873d92af9@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690905161315q2dd709bapf02aad1a5d6f21e6@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70905170027u25e0944ewce405090a2bfdf06@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00905170114s38527500s6ebd06fa0bd5998c@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70905170207n6f7212e6m5cde2a815bf696fa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <01DAC7D8-E5DE-4331-9516-7A2A1DB0C3E3@sarai.net> Dear All, The debate on the elections on this list is lively and interesting, and an instance (in the main) of people genuinely (from all positions on the political spectrum) being reflective rather than scoring polemical points. I hope the list attains a new maturity from this experience. I think one of the points that we could think a little more about is the utter rout that the so called 'Left Front' and their allies have faced, especially in their home bastions of West Bengal and Kerala. I personally see this as a very positive development, as it marks a significant development in people trusting their own experience of the negativity of the so called 'Left Front's' (mis) rule, rather than being swept away by their sentimental attatchments to the mainstream left's symbolic repertoire, or a distant memory of a time when the parties of the left expressed popular sentiments and issues. The bloated, arrogant, cynical, power hungry and unprincipled nature of the current generation of 'Left' leaders has been explicitly recognized, and their ability to 'engineer' election results has clearly failed them in the face of a determined electorate. This is the best thing that could have happened to all those who retain a commitment in our society to a global future without classes, without the depredations of the state, without the rape of nature, without wars and standing armies and with dignity for all working people regardless of race, sex, ethnicity, sexual orientation and religious or non religious affiliation. This moment can mark for us, from where we stand, the possibility of the renewal of a forward looking, peaceful and richly democratic content of the global socialist-communist vision, inflected with a new ecological understanding. I think we have reasons to rejoice that the moribund apparatus of the CPI(M) and its exhausted allies will no longer have to bear the burden of our hopes for the renewal of a left vision in India. I also doubt that the secterian milieu of Maoism in India can give rise to the expansiveness that this vision will need. In my personal view, the renewal of the left in India (and in South Asia as a whole) will need to be imagined anew, and afresh, and free from all past encumbrances. I look forward to discussion on this list of what the contents of such a vision could be. best Shuddha > Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From ravleen2 at gmail.com Tue May 19 11:45:51 2009 From: ravleen2 at gmail.com (ravleen saluja) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 11:45:51 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Climate change in Ladakh In-Reply-To: <564b2fca0905180203sa1c9dffp8b1ebebdb079b90b@mail.gmail.com> References: <000001c9d542$50ce6070$3601a8c0@slshetty> <564b2fca0905180203sa1c9dffp8b1ebebdb079b90b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4d89ab7a0905182315y325a1bcajfb26fd60eca946d1@mail.gmail.com> Hi, Just wanted to point out an error in this piece, which might have been a typo, but does make a difference. Ms Shiva says: "The Gangotri glacier, the source of the Ganga is receding at 20-23 miles per year. Millam glacier is receding at 30m/yr, Dokrani is retreating at 15-20m/yr." The total length of Gangotri is 30 kms so it possibly cannot be receding at the rate of 20-23 miles per year. When I went to Gaumukh, researchers at the field stations of various departments posted there told me that it is anything between 5-15 metres per year. Back in Delhi, even this estimate has been exaggerated but its certainly not 20-23 miles per year. I am not saying at all that global warming is not taking place but such figurative error can sensationalise the situation unneccarily. regards ravleen On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 2:33 PM, Nagraj Adve wrote: > A rather significant piece, by Vandana Shiva, on climate change impacts in > Ladakh. > Naga > > > Climate Change at the Third Pole > > > > May 16, 2009 By *Vandana Shiva > * > Vandana Shiva's ZSpace Page / ZSpace > > > I write from Ladakh, where we are studying the impact of climate change and > evolving participatory adaptation and disaster preparedness strategies with > local communities. > > The melting of snow in the Arctic and Antartic due to global warming and > climate change is reported frequently. However, the melting of the > Himalayan > glaciers goes largely unreported, even though more people are impacted. > > Presently 10% of the earth's landmass is covered with snow, with 84.16% in > the Antartic, 13.9% in Greenland, 0.77% in the Himalaya, 0.51% in North > America, 0.37% in Africa, 0.15% in South America, 0.06% in Europe. Outside > the polar region, Himalaya has the maximum concentration of glaciers. 9.04% > of the Himalaya is covered with glaciers, with 30-40% additional area being > covered with snow. > > The glaciers of the Himalaya are the Third Pole. They feed the giant rivers > of Asia, and support half of humanity. > > In Ladakh, the northern most region of India, all life depends on snow. > Ladakh is a high altitude desert with only 50mm of rainfall. Ladakh's water > comes from the snow melt - both the snow that falls on the land and > provides > the moisture for farming and pastures, as well as the snow of the glaciers > that gently melts and feeds the streams that are the lifeline of the tiny > settlements. > > For centuries snow has supported human survival in Ladakh. > > Climate change is changing this. Less snow is falling, so there is less > moisture for growing crops. In village after village, we are witnessing the > end of farming where snow melt on the fields was the only source of > moisture. > > Reduced snowfall also means less snow in glaciers, and less streamflow. The > shorter period of snowfall prevents the snow from turning into hard ice > crystals. Therefore more of the glacier is liable to melt when the summer > comes. > > Climate change has also led to rain, rather than snow, falling even at > higher altitudes. This also accelerates the melting of glaciers. > > Meantime, heavy rainfall which was unknown in the high altitude desert has > become more frequent, causing flash floods, washing away homes and fields, > trees and livestock. Climate refugees are already being created in the > Himalaya in villages such as Rongjuk. As one of the displaced women said > "when we see the black clouds, we feel afraid." > > The arrival of black clouds and disappearance of white snow in the cold > desert is how climate change is entering the life of the Ladakhi > communities. They did not cause the pollution, but they are its victims. > This is the direct and cruel face of climate injustice - the polluters > continue to pollute, they are insulated from the impact of their own > actions. Others, thousands of miles away bear the brunt of greenhouse gas > pollution. > > India has 5243 glaciers covering an area of 37579 km2 and containing 142.88 > km2 of ice. > > The Gangotri glacier, the source of the Ganga is receding at 20-23 miles > per > year. Millam glacier is receding at 30m/yr, Dokrani is retreating at > 15-20m/yr. The receding of glaciers has accelerated with global warming. > The > rate of retreat of the gangotri glacier has tripled in the last three > years. > Some of the most devastating effects of glacial meltdown occures when > glacial lakes overflow and the phenomena of Glacial Lake Outburst Floods > (GLOFs) take place. > > Climate change thus initially leads to widespread flooding, but over time, > as the snow disappears there will be draught in the summer. In the Ganga, > the loss of glacier meltdown would reduce July - September flows by two > thirds, causing water shortages for 500 million people and 37 percent of > India's irrigated land. > > Glacial runoff in the Himalayas is the largest source of fresh water for > nothern India and provides more than half the water to the Ganga. Glacial > runoff is also the source of the Indus, the Brahmaputra, the Mekong, the > Irrawady and the Yellow and Yantze rivers. > > According to the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), > "glaciers > in the Himayalas are receding faster than in any other part of the world > and > if the present rate continues, the likelihood of them disappearing by the > year 2035 and perhaps sooner is very high if the earth keep getting warmer > at the current rate". According to the IPCC report the total area of > glaciers in the Himalaya will shrink from 193051 square miles to 38,000 > square miles by 2035. > > The lives of billions are at stake. That is why we have started a > participatory process for Himalayan communities to engage in the discussion > on climate change, including issues of climate justice, adaptation and > disaster preparedness. > > In terms of numbers of people impacted, climate change at the Third Pole is > the most far reaching. And no climate change policy or treaty will be > complete without including the Himalayan communities. > > The Government of India has set up a National Climate Action Plan which has > eight missions. One of the missions is for sustaining the Himalayan > Ecosystem. However, the Himalayan communities are missing in the mission. > As > the Action Plan states "A mission for sustaining the Himalayan ecosystem > will be launched to evolve management measures for sustaining and > safeguarding the Himalayan glacier and mountain ecosystem. Himalayas, being > the source of key perennial rives, the Mission would, inter-alia, seek to > understand, whether and the extent to which, the Himalayan glaciers are in > recession and how the problem could be addressed. This will require the > joint effort of climatologists, glaciologists and other experts." > > People only get introduced to protect forests "community based management > of > these ecosystems will be promoted with incentives to community > organizations > and panchayats for protection and enhancement of forested lands". > > However climate change is about more than forests. It is about flash floods > and draught, it is about planning for a future which is not like today. For > this people need to be partners in monitoring and planning. No government > machinery, no matter how sophisticated, can know every mountain, every > glacier, every stream, and every field. People are experts on local > ecosystems and the changes in their ecosystems due to a destabilized > climate. It is this expertise which needs to be mobilized in order to > evolve > timely strategies for adaption. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Ravleen Kaur Senior Reporter Down to Earth Centre for Science and Environment 41, Tughlakabad Institutional Area New Delhi-110062 From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Tue May 19 09:04:14 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 09:04:14 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] On Terror Message-ID: Dear all I read this article in Seminar, and while I must say I didn't completely understand everything in this essay, what I did understand makes me put this up here. I think one has to read this to understand whether the current solutions being proposed to terrorism would be actually working or not . Please do go through this article. Regards Rakesh Link: http://www.india-seminar.com/2009/596/596_ashis_nandy.htm * Welcome, the age of fear * ASHIS NANDY WHEN the likes of W.H. Auden and Erich Fromm announced the age of anxiety a few years after World War II, it was obvious that their point of reference was the modern West, with its full-blown middle-class culture, increasingly unfettered individualism, and its triumphant vision of an urban-industrial future for humankind. In such a world there was place for fear, but for only those fears that were adjuncts to modern society and its anxieties – the fears of loneliness, anomie, alienation and other such lofty states of mind. Anxiety, after all, was a modern disease. Even psychoanalytic theory seemed to endorse that modern connection; it proclaimed that anxiety did not usually have a fantasy behind it; fear did, particularly if it was unrealistic. Hence, many who wrote on such issues knew, but did not take seriously the less respectable fears that stalked the Southern hemisphere – the fear of starvation, loss of livelihood and vocation, humiliation, the fears of loss of self and loss of agency and, above all, insecurity about personal and collective survival. These were seen as correlates of underdevelopment and, thus, by-products of an earlier stage of history, anachronistically surviving in the contemporary world due to the irrationality and cussedness of ignorant, change-resistant societies at the peripheries of the world. Implicitly, progress was redefined as the journey from the age of fear to the age of anxiety. * * *I*t took time for small groups of intellectuals to recognize that even in the modern West, in the interstices of anxiety lurked more primitive fears – fears of annihilation that some of the great discoveries of science such as nuclear weaponry and biological warfare threatened, fears of totalitarianism and machine violence that had outlived Auschwitz but not the Gulags, and the fear of dissent that made censorship and surveillance a matter of life and death in a large number of polities that still constituted the other West. Fears about survival, freedom, self-expression and identity were not the monopoly of the Southern world. Italian sociologist and futurist Eleonora Masini’s work, for example, showed that the fear of nuclear annihilation, banished from the public sphere, *did* enter the psychological world of European children. Now, just when some intellectuals have begun to assure us of the end of history and the idea of democracy has become triumphant enough to force even recalcitrant police states to claim that they are moving towards liberal-democratic ideals, just when there seems to be a global consensus on the beauties of capitalism, mass culture and knowledge society, a new age of fear has begun to unfold before our unbelieving eyes, this time at the very centre of the globalizing world. The coming decades may belong to a form of terror that threatens to change our public life by setting the pace of all debates on individual and collective security. * * *Y*et, terror was always there, though often invisible and unacknowledged, in the political cultures of liberal democracy and capitalism; it has always constituted the underside of western modernity, especially its Jacobin variations. It is the terror without which, Robespierre believed, virtue was impotent. Indeed, all ideas of progress that have dominated the world since the eighteenth century, including the ideas and ideologies that legitimized the two early attempts at globalization – the Atlantic slave trade and modern colonialism – have believed in the emancipatory potentials of terror. The concept of the revolutionary role of vanguards in radical theory and the use of the idea of revolutionary violence to transubstantiate cruelty and mass violence, as S.N. Balagangadhara might put it, are merely extensions of the same tradition. When in the first half of the twentieth century an effort was made to set up an alternative path to globalization by the socialist countries, the first thing each one of them did, whatever else they did or did not, was to set up a terror machine to serve the causes of ‘liberation’ and ‘progress’. That European belief in the socially creative role of terror has now come home to roost. There is some poetic justice in the efforts of others, who have often been at the receiving end of a world system of which the idea of legitimate terror has been an inalienable part, now trying to dismantle the system using the same technology. Terror as a means of actualizing values such as justice, liberty and equality now faces terror that invokes the same values and defines itself as counter-terror. * * *F*or some reason, anguish, the third constituent of the triad that includes anxiety and fear, seems to be in short supply today, despite growing belief that we have to combat anguish the way we fight anxiety and fear. As I grow old, I notice lesser anguish and decreasing sensitivity to anguish around me. I also see, in media and in public discourse, consistent and systematic efforts to marginalize intellectuals and thinkers who think that there are reasons to be anguished about things such as the environment, the growing violence acquiring nihilistic tones, threats to life support systems of smaller cultures and communities at the peripheries of the modern political economy, the impunity with which genocidal projects are implemented, the way cruelty and torture have made their way into the reigning culture of politics, and the pockets of utter destitution within a culture of consumerism that is obscene in the way it flaunts itself. Anguish *is* in short supply today. Yet, the anguished are seen as spoilsports, impractical romantics or doomsday prophets, not in tune with the contemporary liberal-capitalist vision of a good society. The tacit assumption is that technology and managerial expertise will take care of every problem we face today, including the ethical ones. As a result, the happiness industry is thriving. So are the instant vendors of bliss – from the *gurus* that India now routinely exports to the agony aunts in Sunday newspaper columns, from the expanding domain of virtual reality to the flourishing guidebooks on how to conquer happiness. Happiness is now something like a medal in an athletic meet, to be won after hard work under expert guidance. And one of the hurdles you have to learn to cross while reaching the goal of happiness is anguish. Anguish is no longer the prerogative of the socially sensitive and the ontologically alert, confronting the human predicament. It is part of an unnecessary baggage called unhappiness. The new stage of capitalism we have entered also has a cultivated festive style. It has proscribed unhappiness by making it unfashionable. Unhappiness is now seen as an intermediate state between mental health and ill-health. And like the poor, who are held responsible for their poverty in the mainstream culture of capitalism, the unhappy are held culpable for their unhappiness. * * *U*nhappiness is now permissible only in literature, art and cinema. At one time, in some police states psychiatrists diagnosed the unhappy and the anguished as mentally ill, for daring to be unhappy in a utopia. Now anguish has been included in the syndrome of unhappiness. Only its suppression has become more subtle; anguish on the state of the world is called return to a bucolic past, for we have now reportedly arrived at the end of history. Anguish is now defined as a form of self-indulgence and puritanical self-mortification. It is sporadically said, with a dramatic flourish, that we have nothing to fear except fear itself. Does that aphorism admit a concept of courage that includes the courage to be anguished about the state of the world? Does that courage acknowledge the despair that lies behind the psychopathic, nihilistic terror that haunts large part of the world today? Where does fear end and anguish begin? Towards the end of the *Mahabharata*, after the ungodly have been defeated in a fratricidal war, and after the five brothers who fought for justice and virtue have won and the eldest of them has been crowned king, the new king, Yudhisthira, instead of being elated, is anguished. He says, ‘Alas, having defeated the enemy, we ourselves have been defeated… The defeated have become victorious… This, our victory is twined into defeat.’ This anguish is not something Oriental, esoteric and defeatist. Nor is it a by-product of a tragic vision of life. It is an admission that there is a continuity between the self and its others that is only temporarily interrupted by the responsibility to confront evil. It is at the same time a courageous defiance of the conventional idea of victory and defeat as a zero-sum game. Elsewhere, I have told the story of how the ominous date 9/11 marks two beginnings bridged by a strange coincidence. On that day in 2001, the power and the presence of terror captured the imagination of the ordinary citizens the world over and initiated a new age of fear. And the Pathans, the main ethnic community in Afghanistan and North-West Pakistan, soon became associated with the tragedy as the ultimate symbols of Islamic terror for having produced the Taliban and hosting Osama bin Laden. * * *H*owever, another 9/11 took place, unheralded and unsung, in 1906 at Johannesburg in South Africa, at the time a proudly authoritarian, racist, police state. That day *satyagraha* or militant nonviolence was born. Though the theory and the strategy was Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi’s, the first person to proclaim the principle from a public platform at Johannesburg was Abdul Gani, a Muslim merchant, and their closest associate was Haji Habib, another Muslim. It has also been said that one source of Gandhi’s nonviolence was his mother’s religious beliefs. She belonged to a small Hindu sect, the Pranamis, known for their uncompromising pacifism and the deep impress of Islam on their religious life. * * *D*o the coincidence of dates and the Islamic connection have something to tell us? One clue to an answer is that, later on, when satyagraha became a major movement in colonial India, the Pathans led by Abdul Gaffar Khan played a stellar role in it. Gandhi himself called them the finest practitioners of art of militant nonviolence and he traced this to the valorous, martial past of the Pathans. At the height of their movement, there were 100, 000 participants in it called *Khudai Khidmatgars,* God’s servants, and they faced every form of police atrocity from a colonial regime that had only a few years ago fought three bitter wars in Afghanistan against the Pathans. But there was not one instance when a Pathan faltered in his or her commitment to nonviolence. Does this odd attempt to flout global common sense by blending religion and politics something to tell us today? One answer is that the two models of self-sacrificial intervention, one violent and the other nonviolent, struggle for dominance as traits or potentialities in each Pathan or, for that matter, each person or community. Global forces outside the control of a person and the geopolitics of national interests converging on a community determine which potentiality is unleashed. If Gandhi helped unleash one kind of potentiality, Soviet occupation, superpower rivalry and Pakistan’s politically ambitious army released potentialities of another kind. It is absolutely essential in the latter form of thought engineering to create large-scale meaninglessness and despondency and, then, offer an emulsion of a closed mind and a closed ideology as a cure-all. Physicist and social activist Pervez Hoodbhoy may be correct in his diagnosis of drone-like killing machines, the suicide bombers produced by fanatics, but the focus, I insist, must be on the assembly line, not the product. In some ways the polities of South Asia have failed to capture the imagination of their youth; sizeable sections of them are in search of a cause and are willing to be shot for it like mad dogs in at least five of the seven countries in the region. I shamefully admit being anguished that we have not seriously explored how the powerful of the world may have helped to set up their feared private and public ghosts in Afghanistan and Pakistan. * * *T*his essay is not an invitation to anguish. Its goals are mundane and less than heroic; it reiterates what we mostly know but try hard not to know. It suggests that the fears now stalking the upper rungs of global politics are the fears with which large parts of the world, including sections of Indian society, have lived for decades and, in some cases, centuries. Unable to take control of their lives, increasingly victimized by forces that they do not understand and often cannot even identify, if they in their desperation have flayed their hands and struck out at random, even normal political pragmatism demands that we scan the sources of their desperation. We must spot the reasons that have prompted them to sometimes knowingly sacrifice their lives for causes that give meaning in an otherwise meaningless life. If realism and self-interest mean more than mere petty profiteering and bureaucratic quibbling, they should push us to admit that we can survive the new age of fear only by lifting the siege on communities caught in the hinges of time for the sake of causes that make little sense to them and enter their lives as natural calamities – national security, development, progress, state-building and nation-formation. I am not trying to complicate a simple act of terror that targets ordinary citizens living ordinary lives. I know that a growing proportion of the victims of modern terrorism are children, women and the elderly. But we also battle terrorism at a time when the continuities between victims and perpetrators are becoming clearer and all efforts to design neat solutions to human problems are turning out to be inhuman and self-defeating. To steal Tarun Tejpal’s evocative metaphor, the untold story of our assassins is gradually turning out to be a story about us, for their fears and ours are not so radically different. * * *T*his indivisibility of terror we have learnt to deny. Worse, the more blatant the indivisibility, the more aggressive and strident our denials become. We love to talk of *jihadi* terrorism without mentioning Kashmir and Gujarat 2002, and we love to believe that the militancy in Punjab in the late 1980s and 1990s had nothing to do with the 1984 anti-Sikh pogrom in Delhi. The furious arguments on the menace of Maoist violence in India never mention the way we have treated our tribal communities, the mainstay of Indian Maoism today. Nor have official histories and historians documented our gory record in Nagaland and Manipur. The culture of the Indian state is what it is today because of our dedicated efforts to ignore its criminalization. One of the great paradoxes of Indian politics is that the police, the bureaucrats and the politicians enjoy the least respect and trust of the citizens according to every opinion poll, but they become more trustworthy when it comes to terrorism, national security and international relations. * * *A*t the centre of that process of criminalization is the use of ruthless, often extra-legal force in the name of counter-insurgency and counter-terrorism, applauded by much of the media and intelligentsia, backed by the much-heralded Indian middle class. We fear sections of our citizens because we know what we have done to them. And we see all of our neighbours embroiled in a similar exercise. The Sri Lankan state tries hard to dissociate the problem of Tamil terrorism from its consistent record of discrimination against the Tamils and the Colombo riots of 1983; Pakistan’s civil establishment hopes to resist army rule without confronting the army’s role in the Bangladesh genocide. Bangladesh in turn grudges Chakmas the rights that it claimed from Pakistan. Security in any polity is indivisible; unlike wealth, memories are not that easy to lock up. Terror today is the fear that defines the age of fear and each day it becomes more anomic. However woolly-headed and impractical I may sound, I insist that such terror cannot be fought only through an efficient use of arms. Otherwise, after fighting terror so ruthlessly for more than six decades, Israel would not have been so insecure. Indeed, known all over the world for its brutal anti-terrorist measures, the Israeli state itself has become, in the words of a retired officer of its own army, a gangster state. If I may revert to my own cliché, you can afford to choose your friends carelessly but need to be careful when choosing an enemy because, in the long run, you begin to resemble, perhaps not your enemy, but certainly as you imagine him to be. From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Tue May 19 10:35:42 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 10:35:42 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: After the Tigers' defeat, the abuse of Tamils must stop In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1f9180970905182205v200c0660y6d4c1f6322f02d60@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Shiva Shankar Date: Tue, May 19, 2009 at 10:24 AM Subject: After the Tigers' defeat, the abuse of Tamils must stop To: '... the quarter of a million Tamils who were trapped on the island's northern beaches, cowering under government artillery fire, and shot by Tamil Tiger troops if they tried to flee, have lived for four months in infinitely worse conditions than the people of Gaza during Israel's invasion in December. ...' http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/may/18/sri-lanka-war-tamil-tigers After the Tigers' defeat, the abuse of Tamils must stop If Sri Lanka's president treats the civil war's losers as a conquered enemy he will sow the seeds of a new militancy. Jonathan Steele, guardian.co.uk, Monday 18 May 2009 22.30 BST History is littered with the ruined reputations of national leaders who thought they had won a great military victory only to squander it by self-congratulation and stupidity. Whether Sri Lanka's president, Mahinda Rajapakse, joins their number has yet to be seen, but the triumphant speech he will shortly make to his fellow citizens will be an important signal of the path he is choosing. There has to be relief that the worst suffering of the quarter of a million Tamils who were trapped on the island's northern beaches is over. Cowering under government artillery fire, and shot by Tamil Tiger troops if they tried to flee, they have lived for four months in infinitely worse conditions than the people of Gaza during Israel's invasion in December. Palestinians were at least in their own homes, with supplies of food and water, however inadequate. The shelterless masses huddled along the lagoons and sand banks of Sri Lanka's Mullaitivu coastline had nothing except panic, grief and the sight and sound of the dying. The prolonged hell they have been through far outweighs the sudden horror of the tsunami which swept over this same coast four years ago. The priority now is to ensure that the camps which the government has set up for the surviving refugees are properly stocked with food and medicine. Rajapakse has described the last stages of the campaign as an "unprecedented humanitarian operation". As a euphemism for war his phrase is hard to beat. But if he wants to ensure he is really "rescuing hostages", as his officials claim, he has to give them facilities that respect their dignity. If these are transit camps to help people recover while they trace missing relatives and gather some strength after seeing their families shattered, well and good. But if they become concentration camps, it is another story. Government officials are already saying it will take a long time for people to be "re-educated" after years of relentless Tiger propaganda. The phrase is ominous. Why can't refugees be allowed to go back to the villages they fled when the army offensive began last year? The Tigers' leaders are dead and have no more sway over them. No one has taken the Tamils' land or settled in their areas, as often happens in civil wars. Those who wish to go home should be permitted to do so at once. Senior officials recently told John Holmes, the UN's emergency relief ­co-ordinator, that they hope 80% of the displaced can leave the camps by the end of this year. Foreign donor governments must hold Rajapakse to that pledge. They should also insist that the camps are quickly transferred from military to civilian control with unfettered access by UN humanitarian agencies and aid organisations like the International Committee of the Red Cross and Médecins Sans Frontières. The Sri Lankan government is asking for international help. The donor community should be tough in its response. India, in particular, has a powerful role to play, now that the Congress party has strengthened its mandate. Along with other foreign governments, it must make aid strictly conditional on a clear vision from the government of its intentions towards the island's Tamils. Is it planning to send Sinhalese settlers into the traditional Tamil homeland with the aim of "diluting the Tamil threat"? Is it going to pepper the area with army camps and checkpoints, like the occupied West Bank? Above all, what political changes is the government prepared to make? It is 22 years since the 13th amendment to Sri Lanka's constitution provided for power to be devolved to the provinces. The Tamil Tigers' war gained popular support and lasted for so long in part because Sinhalese-dominated governments in Colombo never implemented that reform. Will it do so now? Rajapakse's recent record in the east is not encouraging. Since defeating the Tigers there two years ago, the central government has continued to take most decisions while failing to flood the area with the development aid it needs. Worse still, it has allowed two dissident Tiger commanders who split from the main organisation and joined the government side to carry on gang warfare. If the fruits of peace in the east have been so meagre, it will require a major shift of culture in Colombo to improve on them now that the Tigers have lost control of their heartland in the north. A long succession of Colombo governments has failed to address the Tamil minority's legitimate complaints. To write the Tigers off as terrorists or see the war against them as "just" distorts the facts. While also resorting to frequent acts of terror against civilians as well as assassinations of politicians, they twice fought the government army to a standstill in conventional war because they had a case which many (not all) Tamils agreed with. With the Tigers' defeat a fresh opportunity emerges. If Rajapakse treats Tamils as a conquered enemy, who have to be corralled in camps and whose land has to be split up and occupied, he will sow the seeds for new militancy in the generation to come. j.steele at guardian.co.uk -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue May 19 09:14:42 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 09:14:42 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Election Forecast In-Reply-To: References: <526821.95343.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <341380d00905180620q33dd9618o502b273a901d7917@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70905182044s433ae81avea82bd285f686239@mail.gmail.com> In this Elections , BJP did not loose much . They almost retained the previous share. Congress gain was due to loss of the left , Samajwadi's , Lalu & Paswan. This election turned out to be an election of 'Secular' Congress Vs Hindu 'Communal" BJP & Muslim 'Communal ' left. I was also wondering if the majority gained by Congress is good foe country as the opposition is in no way to put pressure on ruling majority. Is a more stable Govt good for development or bad for democracy ? Pawan On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 7:50 PM, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > Dear Shuddha and Anupam > > You have raised certain important issues in your mail, and one has to look > at both of them. > > *Anupam jee* > > You stated that my projection or identification with Gujarat in the sense I > portrayed in my previous mails is wrong. I can accept that, but then as I > said, the dominant discourse in Gujarat (run by the mainstream local > Gujarati media in collusion with Modi, coupled with support of a certain > section of society there) has created that image which has portrayed > Gujarat > in that light. And it's time Gujarat moves away from that image. > > It becomes even more ironic for me when I compare Modi with the CM of my > own > state, Shivraj Singh Chauhan. When one listens to their election speeches, > one sees a world of difference. I can accept their styles of speeches (I > liked Modi commenting that Congress must be congratulated for creating > slums > which led to Slumdog Millionaire winning the Oscars), what I can't > understand is the attack of opponents by Modi (particularly Sonia and Rahul > Gandhi as well as Manmohan too in this election). When I see that, I begin > to remember the state in which I am living right now, Tamil Nadu. Here too, > we have the 'Kalaignar' and the 'Amma' having zero respect for each other > and fighting elections as if they were in a wrestling match. > > I have heard Shivraj speak, and what seemed so good about it was the way he > first asked for apologies from people if his govt. had done anything wrong > in the previous 5 years. I wonder if Modi would have the courage to ask > apologies from Gujarati people like that. I still remember the haughty > nature of the BJP when they won Gujarat in 2002. What is there to be > haughty > about? Do election victories make our rulers so haughty? Is it necessary? > > At the same time, it's a failure of the Congress in Gujarat to forget the > issues to focus upon (those which you have stated like the pollution in > Ankleshwar and high crime rates against women in cities). Instead of > focussing to become a B-team of Hindutva (which they have become under > Vaghela), they would do better to focus on these issues and imaginatively > use them to send the BJP packing, or at least argue constructively on > issues > related to people. > > *Shuddha jee* > > You have put important issues into focus. The problem with the Left is that > they only focus on equity. This when translated in economic paradigm, means > that there is more focus on distribution of resources rather than > generating > resources in the first place. The result is that in West Bengal itself, the > focus was on distribution of land (and increase in agricultural production > was attributed to it in the 80's), but then the agricultural production > couldn't increase beyond a point simply because either the reforms were > partial, or because for economically beneficial agriculture to be taken up, > the size of the land can't go down beyond a point critically. > > So the Left was actually asking all the people to remain poor, instead of a > particular section remaining poor. > > The BJP on the other hand, being a rightist party, believes that the focus > should mainly be on resource generation rather than distribution of > resources. For them, the revenues earned through resource generation or > usage of resources should be spent on things which only increase further > revenues. So, revenues should be spent on giving loans to rich farmers at > 7% > (only farmers who have a guarantee can get loans after all), or for Golden > Quadrilateral scheme and so on. The result is that the poor are left out of > the entire machinery, while for the rich, nothing can be better off than > this, so India shines for the rich and not for the poor. > > The Congress to a certain extent has realized that one has to focus on > both, > growth and distribution of resources and revenue. This can be realized > through on one hand, introducing and continuing with schemes which can > increase the growth (like giving loans to farmers and Golden Quadrilateral > scheme), and also introduce measures to distribute the revenue obtained > through such growth (as both cash and kind/goods, like the NREGA and the > BPL > schemes). Infact, even in exit polls, people have been telling journalists > that NREGA was an important reason why the poor voted for the Congress(like > the NDTV has accepted, so also sources related to Congress). > > And this ultimately should be the criterion. Therefore, instead of > supporting the BJP or the Left policies, we have to look at the 'middle of > the road' policies. And we should take the Left's stand wherever the > distribution of resources can take place among the poor and they can be > benefited. And we should support the Right's stand wherever growth can take > place by and large without affecting the people (especially the poor and > the > downtrodden). > > This is where we should go different from the Gandhian perspective of the > economy. Because Gandhi believed that a person can be rich only by taking > away the resources of the poor. In other words the Reliance (and other > rich) > is responsible for India's poverty! But that is not true. Hence, I am not > asking that the Reliance must be hated, as the Left wants me to. Neither > should I love Reliance, as the Right wants me to. > > What I want is that Reliance pays taxes, and this can be used through > schemes like NREGA, backed by RTI to look at transparency of schemes, so > that the poor get the money through employment and their purchasing power > increases and their lives become better. I have no objections with Reliance > wanting to build more plants, and increasing their revenue, as it helps me > to get more taxes and more revenue as well. > > Really, the Left needs to think on these lines and redefine themselves. > Their idea of encouraging industry in Bengal is not wrong , but they should > realize that policy making is one thing, and implementing it on ground is > another. They can't afford another Singur or Nandigram fiasco again. Of > course, they have to change themselves in more ways as you stated, for > which > I would write something later. > > Regards > > Rakesh > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Tue May 19 09:58:03 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 09:58:03 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Election Forecast In-Reply-To: References: <526821.95343.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <341380d00905180620q33dd9618o502b273a901d7917@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70905182044s433ae81avea82bd285f686239@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear all I made a mistake in my previous mail in the last statement. It should be: *This is the ultimate challenge for the UPA govt. * Regards Rakesh From vivek at sarai.net Tue May 19 13:05:20 2009 From: vivek at sarai.net (Vivek Narayanan) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 13:05:20 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 13 People who made torture the American way In-Reply-To: <9644922.1242712567177.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <9644922.1242712567177.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4A126138.9090703@sarai.net> Well, at least with this list, we're finally starting at the top. Paul D. Miller wrote: > interesting article. I actually think that there were alot more people over the course of the 20th century - one of the bloodiest epochs of human history - that dealt with alot more "volume" of people, but hey... this is just the sideshow of the spectacle of imperial decline. Ladies and gents, we present "The Torture 13." > > Paul/Dj Spooky > > The 13 People Who Made Torture Possible > The Bush administration's Torture 13. > > They authorized it, they decided how to implement it, > and they crafted the legal fig leaf to justify it. > > by Marcy Wheeler > > Published on Monday, May 18, 2009 by Salon.com > Distributed by Common Dreams > http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/05/18-13 > > On April 16, the Obama administration released four > memos that were used to authorize torture in > interrogations during the Bush administration. When > President Obama released the memos, he said, "It is our > intention to assure those who carried out their duties > relying in good faith upon legal advice from the > Department of Justice that they will not be subject to > prosecution." > > Yet 13 key people in the Bush administration cannot > claim they relied on the memos from the DOJ's Office of > Legal Counsel. Some of the 13 manipulated the federal > bureaucracy and the legal process to "preauthorize" > torture in the days after 9/11. Others helped implement > torture, and still others helped write the memos that > provided the Bush administration with a legal fig leaf > after torture had already begun. > > The Torture 13 exploited the federal bureaucracy to > establish a torture regime in two ways. First, they > based the enhanced interrogation techniques on > techniques used in the U.S. military's Survival, > Evasion, Resistance and Escape (SERE) program. The > program -- which subjects volunteers from the armed > services to simulated hostile capture situations -- > trains servicemen and -women to withstand coercion well > enough to avoid making false confessions if captured. > Two retired SERE psychologists contracted with the > government to "reverse-engineer" these techniques to > use in detainee interrogations. > > The Torture 13 also abused the legal review process in > the Department of Justice in order to provide > permission for torture. The DOJ's Office of Legal > Counsel (OLC) played a crucial role. OLC provides > interpretations on how laws apply to the executive > branch. On issues where the law is unclear, like > national security, OLC opinions can set the boundary > for "legal" activity for executive branch employees. As > Jack Goldsmith, OLC head from 2003 to 2004, explains > it, "One consequence of [OLC's] power to interpret the > law is the power to bestow on government officials what > is effectively an advance pardon for actions taken at > the edges of vague criminal statutes." OLC has the > power, Goldsmith continues, to dispense > "get-out-of-jail-free cards." The Torture 13 exploited > this power by collaborating on a series of OLC opinions > that repeatedly gave U.S. officials such a > "get-out-of-jail-free card" for torturing. > > Between 9/11 and the end of 2002, the Torture 13 > decided to torture, then reverse-engineered the > techniques, and then crafted the legal cover. Here's > who they are and what they did: > > 1. Dick Cheney, vice president (2001-2009) > > On the morning of 9/11, after the evacuation of the > White House, Dick Cheney summoned his legal counsel, > David Addington, to return to work. The two had worked > together for years. In the 1980s, when Cheney was a > congressman from Wyoming and Addington a staff attorney > to another congressman, Cheney and Addington argued > that in Iran-Contra, the president could ignore > congressional guidance on foreign policy matters. > Between 1989 and 1992, when Dick Cheney was the elder > George Bush's secretary of defense, Addington served as > his counsel. He and Cheney saved the only known copies > of abusive interrogation technique manuals taught at > the School of the Americas. Now, on the morning of > 9/11, they worked together to plot an expansive grab of > executive power that they claimed was the correct > response to the terrorist threat. Within two weeks, > they had gotten a memo asserting almost unlimited power > for the president as "the sole organ of the Nation in > its foreign relations," to respond to the terrorist > attacks. As part of that expansive view of executive > power, Cheney and Addington would argue that domestic > and international laws prohibiting torture and abuse > could not prevent the president from authorizing harsh > treatment of detainees in the war against terror. > > But Cheney and Addington also fought bureaucratically > to construct this torture program. Cheney led the way > by controlling who got access to President Bush -- and > making sure his own views preempted others'. Each time > the torture program got into trouble as it spread > around the globe, Cheney intervened to ward off legal > threats and limits, by badgering the CIA's inspector > general when he reported many problems with the > interrogation program, and by lobbying Congress to > legally protect those who had tortured. > > Most shockingly, Cheney is reported to have ordered > torture himself, even after interrogators believed > detainees were cooperative. Since the 2002 OLC memo > known as "Bybee Two" that authorizes torture premises > its authorization for torture on the assertion that > "the interrogation team is certain that" the detainee > "has additional information he refuses to divulge," > Cheney appears to have ordered torture that was illegal > even under the spurious guidelines of the memo. > > 2. David Addington, counsel to the vice president > (2001-2005), chief of staff to the vice president > (2005-2009) David Addington championed the fight to > argue that the president -- in his role as commander in > chief -- could not be bound by any law, including those > prohibiting torture. He did so in two ways. He advised > the lawyers drawing up the legal opinions that > justified torture. In particular, he ran a "War > Council" with Jim Haynes, John Yoo, John Rizzo and > Alberto Gonzales (see all four below) and other trusted > lawyers, which crafted and executed many of the legal > approaches to the war on terror together. > > In addition, Addington and Cheney wielded bureaucratic > carrots and sticks -- notably by giving or withholding > promotions for lawyers who supported these illegal > policies. When Jack Goldsmith withdrew a number of OLC > memos because of the legal problems in them, Addington > was the sole administration lawyer who defended them. > Addington's close bureaucratic control over the legal > analysis process shows he was unwilling to let the > lawyers give the administration a "good faith" > assessment of the laws prohibiting torture. > > 3. Alberto Gonzales, White House counsel (2001-2005), > and attorney general (2005-2008) > > As White House counsel, Alberto Gonzales was nominally > in charge of representing the president's views on > legal issues, including national security issues. In > that role, Gonzales wrote and reviewed a number of the > legal opinions that attempted to immunize torture. Most > important, in a Jan. 25, 2002, opinion reportedly > written with David Addington, Gonzales paved the way > for exempting al-Qaida detainees from the Geneva > Conventions. His memo claimed the "new kind of war" > represented by the war against al-Qaida "renders > obsolete Geneva's strict limitations on questioning of > enemy prisoners." In a signal that Gonzales and > Addington adopted that position to immunize torture, > Gonzales argued that one advantage of not applying the > Geneva Convention to al-Qaida would "substantially > reduce the threat of domestic criminal prosecution > under the War Crimes Act." The memo even specifically > foresaw the possibility of independent counsels' > prosecuting acts against detainees. > > 4. James Mitchell, consultant > > Even while Addington, Gonzales and the lawyers were > beginning to build the legal framework for torture, a > couple of military psychologists were laying out the > techniques the military would use. James Mitchell, a > retired military psychologist, had been a leading > expert in the military's SERE program. In December > 2001, with his partner, Bruce Jessen, Mitchell > reverse-engineered SERE techniques to be used to > interrogate detainees. Then, in the spring of 2002, > before OLC gave official legal approval to torture, > Mitchell oversaw Abu Zubaydah's interrogation. An FBI > agent on the scene describes Mitchell overseeing the > use of "borderline torture." And after OLC approved > waterboarding, Mitchell oversaw its use in ways that > exceeded the guidelines in the OLC memo. Under > Mitchell's guidance, interrogators used the waterboard > with "far greater frequency than initially indicated" > -- a total of 183 times in a month for Khalid Sheikh > Mohammed and 83 times in a month for Abu Zubaydah. > > 5. George Tenet, director of Central Intelligence > (1997-2004) > > As director of the CIA during the early years of the > war against al-Qaida, Tenet had ultimate management > responsibility for the CIA's program of capturing, > detaining and interrogating suspected al-Qaida members > and briefed top Cabinet members on those techniques. > Published reports say Tenet approved every detail of > the interrogation plans: "Any change in the plan -- > even if an extra day of a certain treatment was added > -- was signed off on by the Director." It was under > Tenet's leadership that Mitchell and Jessen's SERE > techniques were applied to the administration's first > allegedly high-value al-Qaida prisoner, Abu Zubaydah. > After approval of the harsh techniques, CIA > headquarters ordered Abu Zubaydah to be waterboarded > even though onsite interrogators believed Zubaydah was > "compliant." Since the Bybee Two memo authorizing > torture required that interrogators believe the > detainee had further information that could only be > gained by using torture, this additional use of the > waterboard was clearly illegal according to the memo. > > 6. Condoleezza Rice, national security advisor > (2001-2005), secretary of state (2005-2008) > > As national security advisor to President Bush, Rice > coordinated much of the administration's internal > debate over interrogation policies. She approved (she > now says she "conveyed the authorization") for the > first known officially sanctioned use of torture -- the > CIA's interrogation of Abu Zubaydah -- on July 17, > 2002. This approval was given after the torture of > Zubaydah had begun, and before receiving a legal OK > from the OLC. The approval from the OLC was given > orally in late July and in written form on Aug. 1, > 2002. Rice's approval or "convey[ance] of > authorization" led directly to the intensified torture > of Zubaydah. > > 7. John Yoo, deputy assistant attorney general, Office > of Legal Counsel (2001-2003) > > As deputy assistant attorney general of OLC focusing on > national security for the first year and a half after > 9/11, Yoo drafted many of the memos that would > establish the torture regime, starting with the opinion > claiming virtually unlimited power for the president in > times of war. In the early months of 2002, he started > working with Addington and others to draft two key > memos authorizing torture: Bybee One (providing legal > cover for torture) and Bybee Two (describing the > techniques that could be used), both dated Aug. 1, > 2002. He also helped draft a similar memo approving > harsh techniques for the military completed on March > 14, 2003, and even a memo eviscerating Fourth Amendment > protections in the United States. The Bybee One and DOD > memos argue that "necessity" or "self-defense" might be > used as defenses against prosecution, even though the > United Nations Convention Against Torture explicitly > states that "no exceptional circumstances whatsoever, > whether a state of war or a threat or war ... may be > invoked as a justification of torture." Bybee Two, > listing the techniques the CIA could use in > interrogation, was premised on hotly debated > assumptions. For example, the memo presumed that Abu > Zubaydah was uncooperative, and had actionable > intelligence that could only be gotten through harsh > techniques. Yet Zubaydah had already cooperated with > the FBI. The memo claimed Zubaydah was mentally and > physically fit to be waterboarded, even though Zubaydah > had had head and recent gunshot injuries. As Jack > Goldsmith described Yoo's opinions, they "could be > interpreted as if they were designed to confer immunity > for bad acts." In all of his torture memos, Yoo ignored > key precedents relating both specifically to > waterboarding and to separation of powers. > > 8. Jay Bybee, assistant attorney general, Office of > Legal Counsel (2001-2003) As head of the OLC when the > first torture memos were approved, Bybee signed the > memos named after him that John Yoo drafted. At the > time, the White House knew that Bybee wanted an > appointment as a Circuit Court judge; after signing his > name to memos supporting torture, he received such an > appointment. Of particular concern is the timing of > Bybee's approval of the torture techniques. He first > approved some techniques on July 24, 2002. The next > day, Jim Haynes, the Defense Department's general > counsel, ordered the SERE unit of DOD to collect > information including details on waterboarding. While > the record is contradictory on whether Haynes or CIA > General Counsel John Rizzo gave that information to > OLC, on the day they did so, OLC approved > waterboarding. One of the documents in that packet > identified these actions as torture, and stated that > torture often produced unreliable results. > > 9. William "Jim" Haynes, Defense Department general > counsel (2001-2008) As general counsel of the Defense > Department, Jim Haynes oversaw the legal analysis of > interrogation techniques to be used with military > detainees. Very early on, he worked as a broker between > SERE professionals and the CIA. His office first asked > for information on "exploiting" detainees in December > 2001, which is when James Mitchell is first known to > have worked on interrogation plans. And later, in July > 2002, when CIA was already using torture with Abu > Zubaydah but needed scientific cover before OLC would > approve waterboarding, Haynes ordered the SERE team to > produce such information immediately. > > Later Haynes played a key role in making sure some of > the techniques were adopted, with little review, by the > military. He was thus crucial to the migration of > torture to Guantanamo and then Iraq. In September 2002, > Haynes participated in a key visit to Guantanamo (along > with Addington and other lawyers) that coincided with > requests from DOD interrogators there for some of the > same techniques used by the CIA. > > Haynes ignored repeated warnings from within the armed > services about the techniques, including statements > that the techniques "may violate torture statute" and > "cross the line of 'humane' treatment." In October > 2002, when the legal counsel for the military's Joint > Chiefs of Staff attempted to conduct a thorough legal > review of the techniques, Haynes ordered her to stop, > because "people were going to see" the objections that > some in the military had raised. On Nov. 27, 2002, > Haynes recommended that Secretary of Defense Donald > Rumsfeld authorize many of the requested techniques, > including stress positions, hooding, the removal of > clothing, and the use of dogs -- the same techniques > that showed up later in the abuse at Abu Ghraib. > > 10. Donald Rumsfeld, secretary of defense (2001-2006) > > As secretary of defense, Rumsfeld signed off on > interrogation methods used in the military, notably for > Abu Ghraib, Bagram Air Force Base and Guantanamo Bay. > With this approval, the use of torture would move from > the CIA to the military. A recent bipartisan Senate > report concluded that "Secretary of Defense Donald > Rumsfeld's authorization of interrogation techniques at > Guantanamo Bay was a direct cause of detainee abuse > there." Rumsfeld personally approved techniques > including the use of phobias (dogs), forced nudity and > stress positions on Dec. 2, 2002, signing a one-page > memo prepared for him by Haynes. These techniques were > among those deemed torture in the Charles Graner case > and the case of "20th hijacker" Mohammed al-Qahtani. > Rumsfeld also personally authorized an interrogation > plan for Moahmedou Ould Slahi on Aug. 13, 2003; the > plan used many of the same techniques as had been used > with al-Qahtani, including sensory deprivation and > "sleep adjustment." And through it all, Rumsfeld > maintained a disdainful view on these techniques, at > one point quipping on a memo approving harsh > techniques, "I stand for eight to 10 hours a day. Why > is standing limited to four hours?" > > 11. John Rizzo, CIA deputy general counsel (2002-2004), > acting general counsel of the Central Intelligence > Agency (2001-2002, 2004-present) > > As deputy general counsel and then acting general > counsel for the CIA, John Rizzo's name appears on all > of the known OLC opinions on torture for the CIA. For > the Bybee Two memo, Rizzo provided a number of > factually contested pieces of information to OLC -- > notably, that Abu Zubaydah was uncooperative and > physically and mentally fit enough to withstand > waterboarding and other enhanced techniques. In > addition, Rizzo provided a description of waterboarding > using one standard, while the OLC opinion described a > more moderate standard. Significantly, the description > of waterboarding submitted to OLC came from the Defense > Department, even though NSC had excluded DOD from > discussions on the memo. Along with the description of > waterboarding and other techniques, Rizzo also provided > a document that called enhanced methods "torture" and > deemed them unreliable -- yet even with this warning, > Rizzo still advocated for the CIA to get permission to > use those techniques. > > 12. Steven Bradbury, principal deputy assistant > attorney general, OLC (2004), acting assistant attorney > general, OLC (2005-2009) > > In 2004, the CIA's inspector general wrote a report > concluding that the CIA's interrogation program might > violate the Convention Against Torture. It fell to > Acting Assistant Attorney General Steven Bradbury to > write three memos in May 2005 that would dismiss the > concerns the IG Report raised -- in effect, to affirm > the OLC's 2002 memos legitimizing torture. Bradbury's > memos noted the ways in which prior torture had > exceeded the Bybee Two memo: the 183 uses of the > waterboard for Khalid Sheikh Mohammed in one month, the > gallon and a half used in waterboarding, the 20 to 30 > times a detainee is thrown agains the wall, the 11 days > a detainee had been made to stay awake, the extra > sessions of waterboarding ordered from CIA headquarters > even after local interrogators deemed Abu Zubaydah to > be fully compliant. Yet Bradbury does not consider it > torture. He notes the CIA's doctors' cautions about the > combination of using the waterboard with a physically > fatigued detainee, yet in a separate memo approves the > use of sleep deprivation and waterboading in tandem. He > repeatedly concedes that the CIA's interrogation > techniques as actually implemented exceeded the SERE > techniques, yet repeatedly points to the connection to > SERE to argue the methods must be legal. And as with > the Bybee One memo, Bradbury resorts to precisely the > kind of appeal to exceptional circumstances -- "used > only as necessary to protect against grave threats" -- > to distinguish U.S. interrogation techniques from the > torture it so closely resembles around the world. > > 13. George W. Bush, president (2001-2009) > > While President Bush maintained some distance from the > torture for years -- Cheney describes him "basically" > authorizing it -- he served as the chief propagandist > about its efficacy and necessity. Most notably, on > Sept. 6, 2006, when Bush first confessed to the > program, Bush repeated the claims made to support the > Bybee Two memo: that Abu Zubaydah wouldn't talk except > by using torture. And in 2006, after the CIA's own > inspector general had raised problems with the program, > after Steven Bradbury had admitted all the ways that > the torture program exceeded guidelines, Bush still > claimed it was legal. > > "[They] were designed to be safe, to comply with our > laws, our Constitution and our treaty obligations. The > Department of Justice reviewed the authorized methods > extensively, and determined them to be lawful." > > With this statement, the deceptions and bureaucratic > games all came full circle. After all, it was Bush who, > on Feb. 7, 2002, had declared the Geneva Conventions > wouldn't apply (a view the Supreme Court ultimately > rejected). > > Bush's inaction in torture is as important as his > actions. Bush failed to fulfill legal obligations to > notify Congress of the torture program. A Senate > Intelligence timeline on the torture program makes > clear that Congress was not briefed on the techniques > used in the torture program until after Abu Zubaydah > had already been waterboarded. And in a 2003 letter, > then House Intelligence ranking member Jane Harman > shows that she had not yet seen evidence that Bush had > signed off on this policy. This suggests President Bush > did not provide the legally required notice to > Congress, violating National Security Decisions > Directive-286. What Bush did not say is as legally > important as what he did say. > > Yet, ultimately, Bush and whatever approval he gave the > program is at the center of the administration's > embrace of torture. Condoleezza Rice recently said, "By > definition, if it was authorized by the president, it > did not violate our obligations in the Convention > Against Torture." While Rice has tried to reframe her > statement, it uses the same logic used by John Yoo and > David Addington to justify the program, the shocking > claim that international and domestic laws cannot bind > the president in times of war. Bush's close allies > still insist if he authorized it, it couldn't be > torture. (c) 2009 Salon.com > > Marcy Wheeler writes her blog, emptywheel, for > FireDogLake.com > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Tue May 19 09:56:55 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 09:56:55 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Election Forecast In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70905182044s433ae81avea82bd285f686239@mail.gmail.com> References: <526821.95343.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <341380d00905180620q33dd9618o502b273a901d7917@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70905182044s433ae81avea82bd285f686239@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Pawan (and all) There have been many comments on the factors which have led to the victory of the UPA. I don't know if I have passed one blanket verdict on this issue or not (if I have I am sorry), but we can't say that this is a victory of secularism against communalism. (Precisely because this would mean that victory of the BJP is a victory of communalism, which is like insulting the people of a state where BJP gained power). 1) The most important issue is that any general election today, is a combination of state elections. Each state saw different factors playing a role, and in their sum this was the verdict obtained. There can be certain common factors (for example, I personally feel NREGA has helped the UPA, particularly the Congress a lot. However this could be not true). But again, each state or province of India is in a league of its own and the factors which contribute to victory for one party in one state may lead to defeat of it in some other state. (For example, the rise of Modi in Gujarat can contribute to the decline of BJP in UP and Bihar). 2) When we talk of the need for a stable govt, many people have the economy in mind. It's the corporates who are seen to want a stable govt which can bring reforms for them so that their interests are the most paramount and they can get what they want. The problem with this is that it's not just the corporates but the other people in India who also elect a govt, and so they also have a right to decide on these policies. Corporates would like to have their own way, and with the media in their hands, they like to pressurize the politicians in power to do as they like. Actually speaking, we do require a stable govt, but it is due to the 5 reasons Mr. Ramchandra Guha pointed out in one of his articles I remember reading during the course of the election campaigning. These are health, education, economy, foreign policy and environment policies to be formulated. To this I would add a 6th, agriculture. Any stable govt can decide upon the paradigms to be followed and concentrate on forming policies and ensuring their implementation, without being concerned about their own stability or their own chairs. Economy does also not mean the corporates, but more than that. Hence, a stable govt. is in India's interests. However, we have seen in the past that stable govts. have turned arrogant or have shot themselves in the foot, particularly the Rajiv Gandhi and the Indira Gandhi govt. Hence, one must realize that one has the commitment to the people of India when at Centre, and undertake their rule with the above 6 sectors in particular in mind. The previous govt. actually did little on most of these sectors. For example, on the health and education sector, most of the energy was spent in fighting on OBC reservation and allocating more money. Of course, the NCERT devised its own syllabus, but the govt could have done work on issues like teacher training at both school and college level. Similarly, the govt. could have introduced the move to have more IIT's and more IIM's in the first year itself, for that would have helped a great deal. In economy, the govt. could have shifted from at least certain sectors like making beedis or being in hotel business. These are not areas where govt. has to be involved at all. The govt should have also tried to bring about reforms and disinvestment upto a certain extent in certain sectors where industrial competition must be promoted (like steel and aluminum plants). 3) Thirdly, the Congress has gained hugely across states. What's more, they have done reasonably well in the Hindi heartland, with the 'revival' in UP and good performance in Rajasthan. Even in MP, they have done better than expected. There are basically some states where they have not done well in their own admission: a) Gujarat (where the result was almost same as last time, so that is not too bad) b) Orissa (here Congress is lucky to get 7/21 seats in Lok Sabha and only getting 26/147 seats in Assembly elections) c) Chhatisgarh (only 1/11 seats in Lok Sabha) d) Karnataka e) Bihar (where they have to build an organization) These are also states where BJP also has a role to play (except may be Orissa). What will be interesting to look at is how the govt. actually tries to balance the mainstream media and the struggles of the poor and the downtrodden to bring about development on an equitable basis. This is the ultimate challenge for the people. Regards Rakesh From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Tue May 19 14:41:57 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 02:11:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Election Forecast Message-ID: <271367.6666.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Deart Anupam   Thank you for this note.   I have often asked the question, "Why did the people of Gujarat send Modi back into Power (Assembly)? What does it say about them?"   It is the first attempt on this List I have seen that tries to reflect upon Gujarat - it's electorate - Modi - BJP and the various considerations that can come into play.   The norm on this List has been bickerings over 'Modi-God v/s Modi-Monster' and 'Hai! Hai! BJP v/s Wah! Wah! BJP'. Purely propagandist fare from one side or the other.   This election BJP picked up an additional seat in Gujarat. Did Modi pick it up or BJP? There are interesting analyses floating around about how many of Modi's (insisted upon by him) candidates lost and how many of Modi-didnt-want-them-as-candidates succeeded. It also remains to seen that whether BJP, although it picked up an additional seat, had an increase in it's vote-share in Gujarat.    Nitish did not want Modi campaigning in Bihar and his stand seems to have been vindicated by the election results. Also, the success rate of candidates of BJP or it's Allies has been poor in the constituencies (outside Gujarat) that saw Modi campaigning.   The BJP has been claiming that the Congress (and it's Allies's) better-than-before performance was at the cost of Left / 3rd Front / 4th Front. Only the Vote-Shares will tell us whether this is factual. The No of Seats got does not tell us much in the ridiculous First-Past-The-Post system we follow.    Kshmendra   --- On Mon, 5/18/09, anupam chakravartty wrote: From: anupam chakravartty Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Election Forecast To: "sarai list" Date: Monday, May 18, 2009, 6:50 PM Dear all, We have been discussing gujarat, so i thought of putting up a small note as im writing from Vadodara. Especially if we consider chiman bhai's time, when things went topsy turvy. This was the phase when BJP from the urban pockets extended its reach to rural Gujarat. however, for a long time the tribal belt was out of BJP's reach. when shankarsinh vaghela contested with BJP party ticket in 1991 from Godhra assembly seat (panchmahals district, considered the part of the tribal belt), he had won this seat. however, in 1996, he lost the election which party insiders and the lesser-known anti Modi lobby believed to have got religious leaders (read sadhus) against Vaghela. Subsequently, in 1998, vaghela turned to congress, even as he claims that he is close to RSS and often terms Modi as a fake sanghi. As you think Rakesh, Gujaratis do not really vote for that macho identity that BJP tries to portray, even though it looks like when you watch modi's speeches and people going gaga over his words as jingoistic. but increasingly, most of the gujaratis consider modi as an empty barrel just like advani. full of words and always banking on the IAS cadres, as gujarat over the years had an illustrious batch of officers who shaped the state  of infact, one of the main reasons why Patan BJP candidate lost the elections was because of his tainted image. similarly, bardoli seat, which had candidates who were really brilliant. There was 29-year old Ritesh Vasava, an IAS aspirant from BJP pitted against the winner, Tushar Chowdhary, who performed really well in the last five years, which is why Bardoli electorate voted for Chowdhary. Gujaratis are just like any other people straddled between devil and the deep sea. you can say that BJP in certain ways has manufactured its own opposition inside the state that would create mandate for it to rule for some years. the real issues such as discrepancies in the claims made by modi in Vibrant gujarat this year, rampant pollution in Ankleshwar and bharuch district, diamond workers' plight, water issues in tribal belt especially in Dahod district, high rate of crimes against women in urban areas such as ahmedabad and vadodara, skewed sex ratio in saurashtra, fishermen's plight and securing the coastline and other border outposts are still major issues in the state, which needs to addressed immediately by whoever is there in power in centre or state. regards anupam On 5/18/09, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > Dear Rakesh > > "And unlike Gujarati society (or a section of Gujarati society), other > societies are not worried about their masculinity that they have to portray > it again and again........" > > You are right. Within the limits of my 'sight' and 'understanding' your > comment was a racist one. > > Kshmendra > > > --- On Sun, 5/17/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > > > From: Rakesh Iyer > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Election Forecast > To: "anupam chakravartty" > Cc: "sarai list" > Date: Sunday, May 17, 2009, 2:05 PM > > > Dear Kshamendra > > I think my comment can or may be seen as racist by some and non-racist by > others. It depends on your sight. and understanding. > > My comment was not on the Gujarati society at whole, but on those who elect > BJP on the reason that Muslims have to be taught their lesson and that > Hindus are weak and effete. It's not a comment on those who vote for BJP > due > to progress, their development, or petty or personal gains. For them we can > think and discuss differently. > > However I used both 'the Gujarati society'  and 'a section of the Gujarati > society' simply because either of them may be true. And if it hurts > Gujaratis, they should actually introspect on why Modi gets elected for > certain reasons in Gujarat, and the very same reasons ensure that BJP never > gets power at the Centre. (like Modi's antics, his high-vitriolic speeches > and so on, which at national level ensure NDA's defeat time and again). And > they should ponder whether the value systems which have allowed Modi to > flower, can actually help the society at large or not, Are these values the > hallmark of a developed society, and a developed country, which we wish to > become by 2020? > > Otherwise, Gujarat will keep electing BJP, and the Centre will still be the > UPA's. The BJP doesn't seem to analyze this question ever, so Gujaratis > only > have the choice to look at it (Or again a section of Gujaratis, and here > you > can understand which section I refer to). > > Because after all, it hurts me not that Modi gets elected again and again; > it hurts me that a section of the Gujarati middle class feels that Muslims > deserved post-Godhra, that they are Pakistan supporters, that Congress will > bring progress only to Muslims (which it never did in the first place to a > substantial extent). I dont' want Modi to be dismissed arbitarily, but what > I want is that society (or a section of society) to introspect whether it > is > doing right or wrong by believing such value systems. > > And if still people feel offended, I apologize. > > Regards > > Rakesh > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Tue May 19 15:00:12 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 15:00:12 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Election Forecast In-Reply-To: <271367.6666.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <271367.6666.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Kshamendra I think it's also somewhat unfair to say that in seats Modi campaigned, if the BJP did poorly, it's because of Modi. Similarly, it's also wrong to say that Rahul Gandhi was a winning factor for Congress simply because in majority of seats which he campaigned in, the Congress won (which is 76 out of 120). The larger point which does come out from this is that Modi has a bad habit of making attacks personal, which is not the way elections should be contested. I can accept that Manmohan and Advani have to attack the other side during election times, but let's attack each other's policies rather than family and physical strength. Congress can be attacked for not bringing enough development in the nation; what's deplorable is that it instead is attacked on 'budhiya-gudiya' politics. How is that related to the poor's benefit? Also, like Advani sahab, he also has the habit of running away when his back is up against the wall, as this election proves. After the results came, he was nowhere to be found! And we need leaders who have the courage to accept their defeat and come back. This is why Indira was a respected adversary even among her opponents. There are many issues which decide as to why someone wins from a particular constituency either at the MLA or at the MP level. Hence, to prove this, there have to be surveys of the kind Yogendra Yadav does. And then only can we think about arriving at some conclusions. Regards Rakesh From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue May 19 15:10:00 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 15:10:00 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Election Forecast In-Reply-To: References: <271367.6666.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70905190240n454639afmec3973b545b65e42@mail.gmail.com> And how did Chidambaram manage to win ??? Daily Mirror, Editorial, May 18, 2009-06-18 Shoe attacks can lead to slippery victories While the Indian election was declared free and fair , the victory of Senior Congress leader and Home Minister P. Chidambaram had led into a major controversy. On Saturday morning the election officials declared that Chidambaram- victim of a Bush-style shoe attack in the run up to polls – was defeated by AIADMK candidate Raja Kannappan by over 3000 voters in Sivaganga electorate in Tamil Nadu. It was confirmed on a second recount as well. However a third recount done on the request of Chidambaram saw him leading with a slender 3,354 vote margin with 3,34,348 votes against 3,30,994 by Kannappan. An incensed Kannappan accused the Home Minister of bribing election officers and AIADMK has vowed to take legal action against the officers. http://www.dailymir ror.lk/DM_ BLOG/Sections/ frmNewsDetailVie w.aspx?ARTID= 49176 On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 3:00 PM, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > Dear Kshamendra > > I think it's also somewhat unfair to say that in seats Modi campaigned, if > the BJP did poorly, it's because of Modi. Similarly, it's also wrong to say > that Rahul Gandhi was a winning factor for Congress simply because in > majority of seats which he campaigned in, the Congress won (which is 76 out > of 120). > > The larger point which does come out from this is that Modi has a bad habit > of making attacks personal, which is not the way elections should be > contested. I can accept that Manmohan and Advani have to attack the other > side during election times, but let's attack each other's policies rather > than family and physical strength. Congress can be attacked for not > bringing > enough development in the nation; what's deplorable is that it instead is > attacked on 'budhiya-gudiya' politics. How is that related to the poor's > benefit? > > Also, like Advani sahab, he also has the habit of running away when his > back > is up against the wall, as this election proves. After the results came, he > was nowhere to be found! And we need leaders who have the courage to accept > their defeat and come back. This is why Indira was a respected adversary > even among her opponents. > > There are many issues which decide as to why someone wins from a particular > constituency either at the MLA or at the MP level. Hence, to prove this, > there have to be surveys of the kind Yogendra Yadav does. And then only can > we think about arriving at some conclusions. > > Regards > > Rakesh > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From m.pedersen at lancaster.ac.uk Tue May 19 16:06:11 2009 From: m.pedersen at lancaster.ac.uk (mp) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 11:36:11 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Climate change in Ladakh In-Reply-To: <4d89ab7a0905182315y325a1bcajfb26fd60eca946d1@mail.gmail.com> References: <000001c9d542$50ce6070$3601a8c0@slshetty> <564b2fca0905180203sa1c9dffp8b1ebebdb079b90b@mail.gmail.com> <4d89ab7a0905182315y325a1bcajfb26fd60eca946d1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A128B9B.4010706@lancaster.ac.uk> hello, ravleen saluja wrote: > Hi, > Just wanted to point out an error in this piece, which might have been a > typo, but does make a difference. Ms Shiva says: > > "The Gangotri glacier, the source of the Ganga is receding at 20-23 miles > per > year. Millam glacier is receding at 30m/yr, Dokrani is retreating at > 15-20m/yr." > > The total length of Gangotri is 30 kms so it possibly cannot be receding at > the rate of 20-23 miles per year. When I went to Gaumukh, researchers at the > field stations of various departments posted there told me that it is > anything between 5-15 metres per year. Back in Delhi, even this estimate has > been exaggerated but its certainly not 20-23 miles per year. I am not saying > at all that global warming is not taking place but such figurative error can > sensationalise the situation unneccarily. Yes, these numbers are wrong. Here are some correct numbers from The World Glacier Monitoring Service (WGMS): (pasted from: http://colonos.wordpress.com/2008/11/14/the-asian-brown-cloud-global-climate-chaos-and-tropical-glaciers/ - which has links to sources) “Some of the most dramatic shrinking has taken place in Europe with Norway’s Breidalblikkbrea glacier thinning by close to 3.1 metres (2.9 metre water equivalent) during 2006 compared with a thinning of 0.3 metres (0.28 metres water equivalent) in the year 2005. Other dramatic shrinking has been registered at Austria’s Grosser Goldbergkees glacier, 1.2 metres in 2006 versus 0.3 in 2005; France’s Ossoue glacier, nearly 3 metres versus around 2.7 metres in 2005; Italy’s Malavalle glacier 1.4 metres versus around 0.9 metres in 2005; Spain’s Maladeta glacier, nearly 2 metres versus 1.6 metres in 2005; Sweden’s Storglaciaeren glacier, 1.8 metres versus close to 0.080 metres in 2005 and Switzerland’s Findelen glacier, 1.3 metres versus 0.22 metres in 2005.” But the worst threat to glaciers are in Peru (and Ecuador and Bolivia) where many village communities have already run dry with consequent crop failing. Within the next 5-8 years, on a conservative estimate, more than 30 million people in Bolivia, Peru and Ecuador will be without water, in particular in the big cities, La Paz, Lima and Quito and the problems have already begun: “The effect of diminishing glaciers is most evident in El Alto, an indigenous community of 800,000 people perched above the capital of La Paz. Waves of mostly Aymara immigrants – the satellite city is growing at between 5 percent and 10 percent a year – arrive daily, fleeing the poverty of their native highlands. With the disappearance of glacial water supplies and a decrepit and poorly managed water company, the city could soon suffer a severe water shortage, experts say” (Murphy 2008) Living as we do in a world of accelerated urbanisation where already the majority of the world’s population live in cities the pressure for the circulation of water is increased dramatically and the problems thus intensified: “Ecuador’s Quito draws 50% of its water supply from the glacial basin, and Bolivia’s La Paz, 30%. The volume of the lost glacier surface of Peru is equivalent to 7,000 million cubic meters of water, that is about ten years of water supply for Lima.” -m From difusion at medialab-prado.es Wed May 6 21:07:18 2009 From: difusion at medialab-prado.es (difusion) Date: Wed, 06 May 2009 17:37:18 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Call for papers> P2P Networks and Processes Message-ID: <4A01AEAE.4090709@medialab-prado.es> _CALL FOR PAPERS _*4th INCLUSIVA-NET MEETING: P2P NETWORKS AND PROCESSES International Seminar* Deadline for submissions: May 31, 2009 Event dates: July 6 to 10, 2009 in Medialab-Prado (Madrid, Spain) Medialab-Prado issues a call for the presentation of papers to be publicly presented during the 4th International Inclusiva-net Meeting. This edition will focus on an analysis of "peer-to-peer" networks and network processes, highlighting the social potentials of cooperative systems and processes based on the structures and dynamics inherent to these types of networks. Selected papers will be presented within a program that will also include invited lecturers and debates. Many topics will be addressed such as P2P networks as a way of democratizing access to culture, legal issues and controversies, educational and artistic applications, their role in the emergent countries, as well as other perspectives that make a broader reflection on P2P networks possible. More information and submission form: http://medialab-prado.es/inclusiva-net Contact: inclusiva2009 [at] medialab-prado.es -- Nerea García Garmendia Comunicación / Press Medialab-Prado Área de Las Artes, Ayuntamiento de Madrid Plaza de las Letras Alameda, 15 28014 Madrid Tfno. +34 914 202 754 difusion at medialab-prado.es www.medialab-prado.es -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From waterjourneys at rediffmail.com Tue May 19 16:19:42 2009 From: waterjourneys at rediffmail.com (Water Journeys) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 10:49:42 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Call for Entry: Voices from the Waters 2009 Message-ID: <20090504060247.57702.qmail@f5mail-237-209.rediffmail.com> Call For Entries Voices from the Waters 2009 4th International Water Film Festival, Bangalore Bangalore Film Society, Arghyam- safe, sustainable water for all, Svaraj- Society for Voluntary Action Revitalization and Justice, Finger Lakes Environmental Film Festival, Ithaca College, USA (FLEFF) Mountainfilm in Telluride, USA, Alliance Francaise de Bangalore, Charter of Human Responsibilities and Water Journeys - Campaign for Fundamental Right to Water with the support of Max Mueller Bhavan, Bangalore are organizing the fourth edition of the biggest international film festival on water- Voices from the Waters 2009 from Friday 4th September, 2009 to Monday 7th September, 2009. Established in 2005 to promote among the public an awareness of the myriad water-issues affecting our everyday lives either directly or indirectly and as a platform for alternate voices and views rarely heard in mainstream, Voices from the Waters started as a Bangalore-based Environmental Film Festival and over the 2007 and 2008 editions grew to be one of the largest, most diverse and dynamic platforms of debate, dialogue and celebration of the precious resource, the blue gold, life itself - water. We invite you to be a part of the festival by contributing short, documentary, animation and feature films (DVD format only) with English subtitles on water and related issues. If you have a film in under any of the following categories: 1. Water Scarcity, 2. The Dams and the Displaced, 3. Water Harvest, 4. Water Struggles/conflicts, 5. Floods and Droughts, 6. Global Warming and Climate Change, 7. Impact of Deforestation on Water Bodies, 8. Water, Sanitation and health, 9. River Pollution, 10. The Holistic Revival of Water Bodies, 11. Water and Life You can consider sending it to us. Please note that the categories are loosely conceived and your film does not have to necessarily adhere to them while focusing on the larger theme of water. Please find the entry form at www.voicesfromthewaters.com Submission Deadline: 31st July 2009 Guidelines: Entries to the Film Festival must include 1. DVD of the film (with English subtitles, if required) 2. A completed and signed copy of the entry form 3. 3 high-resolution stills of the film (can be sent via email) 4. A high-resolution photograph of the director (can be sent via email) Promotional materials are welcome. There is no entry fee. All submitted films will be subject to a selection process by eminent members of the festival jury. Applicant must pay for shipment of films to Voices from the Waters. Submitted films will not be returned but will be part of Voices from the Waters library, one of the largest resources in the world for films on water. Voices from the Waters is conceived as a traveling film festival. The selected films after being premiered in Bangalore at the main event will be taken across to educational institutions, non governmental organizations, small towns and villages across India. Campaign for the fundamental right to water, C/o No.33/1-9, Thyagaraj Layout, Jai Bharath Nagar, Maruthisevanagar P.O, Bangalore-560 033. "If there is magic on this planet, it is contained in water" - Loran Eisley -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From c.anupam at gmail.com Tue May 19 16:27:20 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 16:27:20 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] war of deceptions Message-ID: <341380d00905190357i1f372836m6ca596a723b36ee3@mail.gmail.com> Lies, deceptions, hallmark of Sri Lanka war- Telegraph *The Real Culprits behind Sri Lankan War* Birds have now stopped singing in a land called Vanni. Sun, moon and the stars in the sky have hidden their faces. Angel of death flew over the skies of Vanni and took the lives of more than twenty five thousand innocent Tamil men, women and children in a single day. Thousands of wounded are still crying out for help. They are bleeding to death on the streets. They have touched neither water nor food for days. Nobody has come to rescue them. Those who fight for the rights of the animals and those who preach about Buddha and Mahatma have no compassion for the dying Tamils. Chinese weapons, Indian intelligence, Sinhala Armed personals and racist Sri Lankan leaders came together to perform one of the most cruel war that has cost the lives of many thousands innocents. While thousands of innocent children and women are facing painful and slow death, Sinhala Buddhist extremists are celebrating victory with flags and fire crackers in the south of the country. War that was started with hidden agendas of local and international forces, went on for months not just with the strength of the weapons but with well organised false propaganda done by the Sri Lankan officials. This war was orchestrated and staged with lies and deceptions from the beginning till the end. *Sri Lankan leaders are still vomiting out worms of lies* Rulers of Sri Lanka are continuing to vomit out worms of lies to justify their atrocities against innocent lives. They started with “War on Terror” but changed the buzz word to “Humanitarian Operation” in order to deceive the international community. “War on Terror” was an accepted norm during the Bush era but lost it's validity now. Therefore they had changed the name of the game to “Humanitarian operation” *Why do they lie?* Because they have many hidden agendas behind this dirty war. They want to hide the atrocities that are being committed against innocent civilians. They themselves know, what they are doing is wrong and not acceptable in a civilised world. Above everything they want to protect India who are orchestrating the war in Sri Lanka. Indian intelligent agents and military experts are working closely with the Sri Lankan forces in the war zone. *How do they manage to lie?* They simply hide the truth. When the truth is hidden what comes out is lie. Foreign journalists and aid workers are barred from the war zone and IDP camps. Those who try to enter and report about the war, are kicked out of the country if they are critical of the government. Local journalists are intimidated, tortured and sometime killed. Telling the truth is considered a crime in Sri Lanka. Phone lines are tapped. Web sites are blocked. Anybody who talk against the government is considered as Terrorist or Terrorist supporter. In the war front, dead bodies of the civilians are burned to ashes using powerful chemicals. This is to hide the number of innocent civilians that have perished in the war. Sri Lankan government officials very often organise staged visits to the IDP camps and force the refugees to lie to the foreign diplomats. *What did they lie about?* They lied about the objective of the war, weapons used, number of civilian causalities and military operations. Although they initially claimed that the objective of the war was to defeat the LTTE, they have in fact killed and wounded several thousands of innocent Tamil civilians with heavy weapons. They used chemical weapons and cluster bombs on innocents, but they continue to deny the usage of such weapons. Sri Lankan forces have destroyed Schools, hospitals and farm lands and made the whole place into a graveyard for the Tamils. This is also regularly denied by the Sri Lankan authorities. This war has claimed more than fifty thousands lives just within the last few months but the Sri Lankan government is not going to open their mouth and tell this truth to the world. *Why didn't the UN intervene?* United Nations, who is supposed to be a guardian for the oppressed people in the world turned out to be a silent spectator of a man made disaster that has taken the lives of many thousands. There is a conspiracy behind this whole war game. China was initially blocking every attempt that was made by UK and France to discuss the Sri Lankan issue in the Security Council. Ban Ki-moon's chief of staff Vijay Nambiar was sent to Sri Lanka to organise a cease fire. He failed to secure a ceasefire and returned back after meeting the Sri Lankan and Indian officials. Interestingly Vijay Nambiar couldn't achieve anything constructive in his visit and he had also refused to meet the reporters. This `unbiased` negotiator, who appears to actually be on the payroll of the Sri Lankan government, though indirectly, something that is obviously known to the United Nations. Vijay Nambiar`s brother (Satish Nambiar) is a paid consultant for the Sri Lankan army, and has been since 2002. Is there any link between the UN and the Sri Lankan army`s paid consultant? UN has once again proved to the world that it is no longer a trust worthy international body that can protect the vulnerable. *They have all achieved what they wanted * What we are witnessing in Sri Lanka is neither “war on terror” nor a Humanitarian operation. This is simply a racist war against the Tamils conducted with the help of India and China. You wouldn't shoot at the passengers and bomb the whole bus, if you had to rescue the hostages. Sinhala extremists are already celebrating and they have also started to intimidate Tamils in the South of the country. India and China have started to work on their hidden agendas in Sri Lanka. Tamils all over the world are mourning the death of their loved ones back home. *What Next?* When the rocket scientists designed highly complex derivatives and greedy traders traded these new emperors cloths, many investment banks collapsed. Pension funds lost money. Bankers committed suicide. The whole financial disaster was caused by greedy and selfish individuals who had short term hidden agendas. We took action. Greedy bankers and traders were taken to courts. New rules and regulations are now in place to prevent this happening again. In the same way, the masters of this war in Sri Lanka should be brought to justice. Sinhala government with racist agendas , China and India with their strategic interests and UN with corrupt officers are the evil ingredients of this dirty war that has cost the lives of many thousands innocent Tamils. Leaders of Sri Lanka and some responsible officers in the UN, should be questioned in international courts in order to find out if they were responsible for the deaths of innocent Tamils. If we didn't, we would end up seeing more of such evil games repeated over and over again. Richard Dixon RichardDixons at googlemail.com From kokopeli at gmail.com Tue May 19 23:40:42 2009 From: kokopeli at gmail.com (Sujata & Samantak) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 23:40:42 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] A letter to LK Advani Message-ID: <556b1d6b0905191110w43a15b56xbc351f96d9a6dfae@mail.gmail.com> A friend sent me this - a letter written by Mallika Sarabhai to Lal Krishna Advani - which I thought I would share with you. Samantak * * __________________________________________________________________________________ Magazine| May 15, 2009 Opinion *Dear Shri Advani * *As a proud Hindu and a proud Indian, I feel vilified by you. You have reduced the great Sanatana philosophy to a Taliban-style Hindutva* MALLIKA SARABHAI I was asked to write about whether it was a daunting experience for me, an independent, to contest against you, a mighty prime ministerial candidate. I choose to write a letter to you instead. By the time you read this, the election results will be out. You will either have lost or won. Either way, what I have to say to you will stand. I am a post-Independence Indian. I was brought up to value and treasure my unique Indianness, to value our Constitution, which gives equal rights to all Indians, irrespective of belief, culture, practice or language. I learnt to revel in the differences that made us a rainbow country. We are a salad-like melange of cultures and not a soup where all variations get reduced to a homogeneous pulp—this, to me, is our greatest strength. Instead of the hunger, thirst and soul-chilling deprivations that our people still suffer, you talk of swords and trishuls. Instead of the lynching of Dalits and the rape of thousands of women and girls, you speak of building temples and destroying mosques. Instead of propagating the Hindu thought of *vasudhaiva kutumbakam* (the world is my family), you split our family into religions and tell all "others" to get out or live as minions in their own country. As a proud Hindu and a proud Indian, I feel vilified by you. You have reduced the great Sanatana philosophy to a Taliban-style Hindutva. As an Indian, you have tried to reduce my identity to a single factor—Hindu or not. You let your goons, saffron-clad terror units wielding lathis and worse, terrorise us and live above the laws of this country. And above all, you claim that the rath yatra, the starting point of all terrorism in this country and the fountainhead of blood-spilling in recent years, is your greatest achievement. Every Monday, throughout the campaign, I asked you some questions. Neither you nor your public relations people nor the hip netizens on your team acknowledged or answered them. So let me list some of them again: *1* What efforts have you made towards opportunities for education and livelihood generation in the rural areas of Gandhinagar constituency? *2* Have you used your funds under the MPLAD scheme to benefit the deprived and underprivileged in your constituency? *3* What has the BJP done to make available affordable housing to the citizens of Gandhinagar constituency in the last two decades? *4* Several lakh depositors lost their savings in the cooperative bank scams of 2003. At least three BJP candidates who contested the election this year were involved in the scams. What have you done for the depositors? *5* How would you ensure that particular communities are not victimised with the anti-terror laws that you are proposing? *6* Did the money accepted by your party’s then president Bangaru Laxman come from a Swiss bank account, or was it swadeshi black money? *7* Some 35,000 families live in Ramapir No Tekro, where there are 10 toilets each for men and women, which open at 8 am and close at 6 pm. But as they are ragpickers, they go to work at 4 am. Are they, and some nine lakh similar citizens in your constituency, who lack drinking water, roads and social security, partners in your Vibrant Gujarat? No, Mr Advani, I am not daunted by you. I may have lost this election, but I will continue to work for the disadvantaged and dispossessed, and to ensure that their voice shall be silenced no more. Sincerely, Mallika ------------------------------ (*The writer is a dancer and social activist who contested from Gandhinagar. *) From kokopeli at gmail.com Tue May 19 23:47:05 2009 From: kokopeli at gmail.com (Sujata & Samantak) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 23:47:05 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Nano - small car, big responsibilities Message-ID: <556b1d6b0905191117h603d848evf8bc9b02c146c9b5@mail.gmail.com> Dr Dipankar Dey, associate dean. ICFAI Business School, wrote this piece for sanhati.com, a shorter version appeared in Hong Kong-based online daily www.asiasentinel.com. Here is the Sanhati piece, which I found thought-provoking. Understanding the Nano: small car, big responsibilities By Dipankar Dey (http://sanhati.com/articles/1484/) On 23rd March 2009, Tata Motors Company (TMC) launched its much publicized small car Nano in Mumbai. As the Sanand plant at Gujarat is at its inception now, a makeshift arrangement has been made to produce 50,000 units at their Pantnagar plant. Limited numbers of prospective buyers will receive their cars after three months, in June 2009. It is reported that the basic model priced at Rs one lakh ($2500, ex-factory without transportation cost) without air conditioning will contribute only 20 per cent of the Nano sales and rest 80 per cent will be contributed by the premium models priced at around Rs 1.6 lakh. The TMC's strategy on the Nano draws a striking similarity with the General Motors (the US auto major currently struggling for its survival) global production strategy in the late 1980s that was based on simple and flexible manufacturing plants; global sourcing of automobile parts; rapid introduction of new models; and a lean dealer network. This strategy had shown success in Europe and it was introduced in Brazil in the early 1990s, with a goal of applying it in Asia, Eastern Europe and ultimately in the United States. Later Ford and other major automobile companies also followed the same model. In 1997 GM made the Blue Macaw Project the centipede of its Brazilian strategy. GM chose the state of Rio Grande do Sul as the site. The project revolved around a new automobile assembly plant with an annual capacity of 150,000. The plant produced a stripped-down version of the Opel Corsa, a subcompact car, with an under $10,000 price tag. Among the advantages of locating in Rio Grande do Sul were geographical proximity to the Southern cones major markets in southern Brazil, the Buenos Aires region of Argentina and Uruguay. In return for agreeing to build the $600 million plant in a lightly industrialized area, GM received a package of subsidies from the state government of Rio Grande do Sul. The subsidies amounted reportedly to $250 million, and the tax breaks appeared to have the potential to equal $1.5 billion over a 15-year period. GM executives maintained that in the absence of these subsidies, the firm would have located the plant in a more developed part of Brazil. In 2000, the GM plant employed 1,300 workers, and locally based suppliers employed another 1,300 workers. The plant housed 20 suppliers, the most important of which were US, French and Japanese companies. GM outsourced all components except power trains, body welding, body panels, paint, and final assembly. Similar activities were planned in the TMC's mother plant at Singur.. The main thrusts were on body welding, body panels, paint, and final assembly. Major components were to be supplied by other ancillary companies. \In May 2006, Tata Motors had announced its decision to start an automobile factory at Singur (West Bengal) to roll out the world's cheapest car Nano. The launch of the car in Mumbai in March 2009 was an important phase in the automobile history of the world. This brief history of Nano has taught us how a large corporate house could (i) use, to its advantage, the unhealthy competition among different states to attract large capital; (ii) effectively use parliamentary politics as a business strategy to convert an internal crisis into an advantage. Politics has played an equally important role, if not more than business economics, in shaping the future of Nano. The supportive role of the State in the expansion of large capital is a controversial and much discussed topic. This symbiotic relationship between the state and large capital had worked successfully throughout the 19th and most decades of the 20th century. In India, the Tatas did not rely much on the nascent State. They constructed their own power plants to supply electricity to their factories, managed schools, research centers, municipalities etc. To ensure steady supply of management staff, they created Tata Administrative Service (TAS) in line with the Indian Administrative Service. Till the early 1980s, the government role was considered as regulator only. One of the major changes that Mr Ratan Tata brought about in the Tata House after he succeeded JRD Tata in the mid 1980s was the group's attitude towards government. In the changed situation, the Tatas decided to involve the government as their business partner. The group's involvement in the Karnal refinery project with Indian Oil Corporation (which did not take off), Ratan Tata's acceptance of the Chairmanship of Air India and his close advisory relationship with Rajiv Gandhi could be cited as indications of change in attitude towards the government. The relationship between the state and the group improved over the years and during last two decades; the Tatas have succeeded in extracting substantial benefits from the state. Allocation of vast agricultural lands by various state governments to the Tata companies, say for shrimp cultivation at Chilka (1991); steel plants at Gopalpur on Sea (1995) and Kalinga Nagar (2004); automobile plants at Singur (2006) and Sanand (2008), are few such examples. There was resistance against all the above projects; many protesters were killed and none of the projects have been put into operation till date. But except in Chilka, the Tatas have not returned a single acre of land to the government/cultivators. With the passage of time, when the protest movements dwindled, the Tatas increased their grip (as seen in Gopalpur) on the land. Singur is not an exception to this trend. Though Tata Motors has abandoned the Singur project in October 2008, till date it has not retuned the land to the farmers. Instead, recently it expressed its willingness to renew the lease agreement for another year. The Chief Minister Buddhadeb Bhattacherjee's reported comment in an election rally on 11 April (ABP, April 12, 2009), expressing his desire to return to Singur to build the Nano factory adds to the speculation that the Tata's decision to abandon the project midway was nothing but a well planned strategic retreat. They will return back to Singur at the most appropriate time. The decision to abandon the Singur project has benefited both Tata Motors and the ruling Left Front government of West Bengal. It was a win-win situation for both the parties. In a twosome game, no one recognizes the third or fourth parties which remain beyond the fence, as silent spectators. However, in Singur, the third and the fourth parties namely local peasants and civil society organizations did not remain quiet. They have made their voices heard across the country. Gains for Tata Motors: The most crucial gain for TMC was to get five extra months between November 2008, when the launch was initially scheduled, and March 2009, when Nano was actually launched. These additional five months have benefited the company in two ways. First, the production cost could be reduced. Now, the cost of production is much less compared to last year. Since January 2008, the prices of two major inputs namely cold rolled steel and rubber have decreased by 28 p.c. and 19 p.c. In addition to this, the government has slashed the excise duty from 16 p.c. to 8 p.c.. Moreover the price of crude oil has also decreased by over 51 p.c. in the said period. Second, TMC has an opportunity to mobilize funds, at a negligible cost, by asking the prospective buyers of Nano to place deposits in advance. This has been made possible at a time when the company has been facing severe financial crisis. The Economist (March 26, 2009), has estimated that prospective Nano customers are expected to place deposits worth up to $1 billion with Tata Motors at the time of placing order for the car. The company will retain that amount, without paying any interest, for at least three months before the first phase allocation of limited numbers of cars are complete. And those willing to be considered for the second batch will be paid interest, below the market rate, after one year. Had TMCs launched Nano, as scheduled before, in the month of November 2008 at a time when the economy was worst hit, the Tatas could not have been successful in mobilizing such a huge sum of money at a negligible cost. By July-August last year, Tata management could realise that the impact of the global recession would be severe. It may be recalled that the crude price per barrel went up to $147 in July 2008.Certainly that was not a conducive situation to launch a motor car targeting price sensitive middle-class clients. They were just looking for an excuse to delay the project and buy some time- till the economy showed some signs of recovery. Like other steel and automobile companies across the world, the Tata companies have also been affected adversely by the super recession the global economy had been passing through for the past one year. For them, the problem got more harsh due to some expensive acquisitions in the overseas market. After the takeover of European steel major Chorus by Tata Steel, Tata Motors acquired the British auto firm Jaguar Land Rover (JLR) in June 2008, paying a hefty sum of $2.3 billion. Since then, sales has fallen 22 p.c. production has been slashed by 60 p.c. 1800 jobs have been cut and Tata Motors have pumped in $1.2 billion of working capital into JLR. As the condition did not improve, in March the company has approached the British government for a loan guarantee of $730 million. Added to this, back home, the sales of the Tata Motors heavy vehicles have fallen by 60 p.c. (may be to utilize the excess capacity, Nano is being assembled in their Pantnagar plant). All these factors have put the company into a severe crisis and their credit rating in March 2009 has fallen to B3 from B1. Moreover, for the first time in recent past, Tata Motors incurred a loss of $54 million (approximately Rs 270 crore) in the quarter ending in December 2008. It has been reported that this year Tata Motors faces a funding gap of at least $3.4 billion. Out of this, $2 billion has to be repaid by June 2009. During such a financial crisis, Nano has emerged as a savior. Decision to abandon the Singur project has helped TMC extract huge concessions from the Gujarat government also. To understand the strategic move of the company, we shall have to reexamine closely some of the major political events those occurred immediately before the move. The official Left had withdrawn support from the UPA government in the center; signs of a prolonged global recession were getting prominent in every passing day and in West Bengal, the LF government, the main sponsor of the project was under severe political pressure due to pathetic performance in every aspects- political, economic and social. Civil society organizations were on the street seeking justice against atrocities of the ruling party. Competent managers of Tata Motors, through their accurate assessment of political environment and timely intervention had turned a threat into a huge advantage. Under the changed situation, keeping in mind the future plan of their dream car, they realised that Gujarat could be the only other state which could be made to compete against West Bengal. The Gujarat chief minister Narendra Modi was contacted secretly and he fell victim to the ploy immediately. Thus, Tatas succeeded in extracting huge concessions from the Gujarat government also. Probably the benefits were much higher than the prohibitively large concessions, details of which are yet to be revealed, they had obtained from the West Bengal government. This strategy to extract maximum benefit from the competing states was not new. As observed elsewhere above in this article, in the 1990s, the US auto giants General Motors and Ford had successfully implemented this strategy to obtain maximum concessions from the provincial governments of Brazil. Analyzing the impact of such investments on local economy, G.H Hanson (2001) in his paper, Should Countries Promote Foreign Direct Investment?, had raised a very important question. He asked, if it was true that the benefits of FDI for host countries were insufficient to justify FDI promotion policies, then why did host-country governments continued to offer multinationals special treatment? According to him, there were two main reasons. One, the governments felt compelled to offer concessions given that multinationals subjected their location decisions to bidding by potential host-country governments. Second, promoting such investment, served the interests of host-country politicians. Attracting multinationals either had benefited specific constituencies, from whom politicians derived support, or fitted into the political strategies of empire-building. The second reason cited in Hanson's analysis aptly explains the political motives of the government of West Bengal and Gujarat in siding with the Tatas in this controversial project. Tata Motors have understood accurately the political interests and compulsions of the state governments. They simply exploited such weakness to their advantage. In 2006 also they successfully implemented the same strategy before selecting the Singur site. At that time, they projected Uttaranchal as another likely contender for the Nano project. The West Bengal government out of desperation, walked into that trap and ended up offering huge economic concessions to the company. The political compulsion of the LF government becomes more clear when one analyzes the state government's enthusiasm to attract large business houses, including foreign firms, to the state in which over 55,000 small and medium firms have been closed during last three decades. Contrary to the general expectation that the LF government would extend all kind of support to the small and medium entrepreneurs of the state, in reality, they did the reverse. The political logic is obvious. Financially strong local entrepreneurs would aspire for political power which the ruling parties in West Bengal are not willing to share with . As entrepreneurs from other states/overseas countries would remain focussed on business activities only, political risk is much lower in such cases. Maybe, due to same political reason, the number of local entrepreneurs in China is very limited. Foreign capital and transnational corporations are welcome there. The low price of the car and its unique production strategy that was based on simple and flexible manufacturing plants; global sourcing of automobile parts and rapid introduction of new models have compelled the management to follow an innovative promotional strategy to establish the Nano brand within a very short time , across the country, at a limited budget. Seven months delay in the launch of the car and the associated controversy the project has generated due to the abandonment of the Singur plant, has helped Tata Motors achieve that objective. The production model remains an area of concern for them. Tata motors dream car has a striking similarity with another product, the IBM PC, launched by IBM in 1981. Except for its name, IBM had contributed nothing in that product which had brought in a revolutionary change in the economic and social activities across the world. In that PC, all critical components were supplied by other companies like Microsoft, Intel and Seagate . But clone makers realised trick quickly. They purchased the critical components from the original suppliers, assembled the same as per the standard set by IBM and flooded the market with low priced IBM Compatible PCs. Thus IBM failed to retain its control on the PC market. Most of the critical components of Nano will be supplied by other companies.. For example, BOSCH will supply the engine, alternators, brakes etc. LUCAS-TVS;TACO;RICO;Sundaram Clayton;Rasandik et al will provide various other critical components.(Hindu Business Line March 23,2009). In future any expert mechanic may assemble a Nano Compatible small car procuring the critical components from the market. Apprehending this, Tata Motors has reportedly applied for patent protection for over 37 inventions and innovations linked to its Nano. Industry watchers have interpreted this as an aggressive move to protect the low-cost car against imitation.4 But mere patent protection may not be sufficient to stop imitation at the local level. So the Tatas have opted for an aggressive strategy and tied up with 15 national banks to market their dream car. And to establish the brand with a limited budget, from day one they have consciously relied more on fuelling controversies than spending millions of rupees on advertisements. During last one year, the attention Nano has received from the press and political parties was unbelievable. Thousands of tons of news prints and hundreds of hours of prime television and radio time in all the national and regional languages have been used for Nano related news and stories. The more the controversies, the more the mileage for the Nano brand. The timing of the launch on 23 March, just before the election, was also meticulously thought of. Nano has emerged as a major election issue in Gujarat and West Bengal- more in case of the latter. The sarcastic remarks by Mr Ratan Tata, an urbane gentleman , during the launching ceremony of Nano should be analysed as an tactical move to fuel and sustain the Nano controversy. Gains for the ruling left front The ruling LF has made Nano as one of its main election issues. As it has no other catchy issue to sell , Nano is eloquently in use in election speeches, slogans, posters ; graffitis et al. All its major failures during the last three decades- be it health care; education; industrialization or agriculture- have become secondary. The opposition political parties , to be precise, the leader of the opposition Ms Mamata Banerjee has been made the scapegoat for all the failures of the government and she has been identified as the main culprit for the non fulfillment of the Chief Minister's dream project at Singur. To exploit the general weakness of Bengali middle class towards the losers ( a la Debdas), Mr Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee is being projected as a "tragic hero“ a victim of grand conspiracy . How far this strategy would be successful is not known but Nano and Singur, rather abandonment of Singur by Nano, has given some talking points for the ruling parties to speak in the election rallies. Future of Singur Plant Most probably, Tata Motors will be back to Singur. It was abandoned only to be back again. If the LF emerges politically stronger after the election, it will return early and will insist on granting SEZ status to the project. If the election result indicates Mamata Banerjee coming to power in the next assembly election scheduled within a year, Tata Motors will agree to restrict the plant size to 600 acres. Rest 400 acres will be returned to the farmers. It should be remembered that Nano's next destination is Europe and then to Southeast Asia via Thailand. In it's expansion plan Singur has an important role to play. While Ratan Tata is banking on his dream car to bail out Tata Motors from an unprecedented financial crisis, The WB CM is also relying heavily on his unfulfilled ˜dream project" at Singur to sail through the political challenges his government is facing at present. It seems that the small Nano is overloaded with large responsibilities. Will it be able to bear the load? From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Wed May 20 00:00:55 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 00:00:55 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Nano - small car, big responsibilities In-Reply-To: <556b1d6b0905191117h603d848evf8bc9b02c146c9b5@mail.gmail.com> References: <556b1d6b0905191117h603d848evf8bc9b02c146c9b5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear all The article has raised very vital issues, and along with these, some other issues also come to my mind. These are summed up as follows: 1) Why is it so that the agreement between the Gujarat govt. and the Tatas for the Sanand plant is in wraps? Why not make the terms of the agreement public, at least to the Gujarati public? What is there to hide in that? 2) When one looks at the aspect of production of Nano, one must realize the cost of having too many modes of private transport on the roads in our cities rather than public transport system which would have led to lower energy consumption and better and more efficient public transportation at lower costs. This has to be analyzed further through studies and other research. 3) The idea of Tata to pressurize govts. through media and other diversionary tactics is something which has to be looked at. I personally feel that govts. should realize that it's not Tata but the masses which decide who has to rule. Therefore, a CM must be responsible to the citizens and not Tata. So also any govt or a PM. 4) The final point comes up to as whether we need institutions to oversee such investments taking fruit, as to the manner in which the investment bears frution and also how they should proceed, or is strengthening the current institutions working in such direction (if any) is enough? These are some of the questions we must ask and get answers to before we come to any conclusion regarding how the industrial sector must be allowed to flourish. It is in everybody's interest that an industrial sector gets developed; what is required is proper transparency and accountability in building industries and not practicing crony capitalism and double standards. Regards Rakesh From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed May 20 09:59:16 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 09:59:16 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] ARJAN DEV MAJBOOR - A CONVERSATION In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70905192126y3dc1b47x78747b7ec8211eb4@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70905192126y3dc1b47x78747b7ec8211eb4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70905192129ged13d98t2864f9fe139fc9e3@mail.gmail.com> ARJAN DEV MAJBOOR - A CONVERSATION Shri Arjan Dev Majboor, a well known Kashmiri poet and a Researcher was born on 16th of August, 1924 at Zanapora, Pulwama (Kashmir). For over six decades he has been writing poetry and contributing to research on History and Culture of Kashmir. In a conversation with Kashmir Sentinel he talked at length about his life, Works and influences on his Art. In this thematic section we are reproducing excerpts of the conversation. The second part of the interview that pertains to the autobiographical details is being published separately.           --The Editor. KS: How did your Literary Journey begin? ADM: At Lahore one of my companions in hostel was a Punjabi student, Roshan Lal. He wrote good Urdu. It touched me. I started writing in Urdu and composed few poems. One of these was published in Milap. I was already exposed to Persian language and literature while still at school. My family had good collection of books in Persian and  Urdu, besides shrukhs of Nund Rishi, which was lost when our house was set on fire in 1992. In my school years I had the opportunity to go through Somadeva's Vaital Patisavi and Firdousi's Shahnama. I grew up in an ambience where Persian metaphors were better known than those in Kashmiri. It was in 10th class when I happened to buy Mehjoor's book from a bookshop for one anna. A Punjabi singer used to sing his poems through a megaphone to boost up the sales of the book. This created interest in me for poetry. KS: Marxist ideas have influenced you and your literature. How did it happen? ADM: I remained associated with Left movement in Kashmir from 1947 to 1990. I worked mainly on Writers front and at Trade Union level among teachers. During my Lahore days, I happened to buy a book 'Samyavad Hi Qiyon' (Why Socialism), authored by Rahul Sankrityan, in Amritsar. It brought about a drastic change in my ideology. I began to consider myself a marxist. My actual political and literary work started when I joined DAV High School, Magarmal Bagh. This was the time when cataclysmic changes were taking place on the political landscape of Kashmir. The raiders were knocking at the doors of Srinagar. The Pandit population of the city was in panic and busy making preparations to flee the city for safety in plains of India. I began trade union work among teachers and organised All Kashmir Teachers' Federation. This subsequently became affiliate of Teachers' Federation of Jammu and Ladakh. I remained General Secretary of Kashmir Association for three long years. Though I was working in a Private School,yet I took up problems of Govt. teachers as well. During the tribal raid days I happened to meet once Pt. Dina Nath Nadim, poet laureate of Kashmir at Ali Mohammad Booksellers' shop at Habbakadal. He was attired in turban, an achkan with worn out buttons and an old pant. On seeing me he exclaimed, "Majboor, I had different idea about you. My impression was you were an old man". Nadim Sahib invited me to attend the weekly (Friday) meetings of 'Kashmir Progressive Writers' Association', a branch of Cultural Congress. This organisation, alongwith its sister organisations among artists and theatre people had been allotted a barrack at Exhibition Grounds. This was the time when IPTA movement was at its zenith in India. It is true my poetry developed in Cultural Congress but when I was exposed to Indian classical writers it became obvious to me that India had given much more to the world. KS: Do you subscribe to the view that a writer should have social message as the main concern? ADM: I do believe in art for life's sake but at the same time I dislike mannerism and sloganeering which was rampant among the litterateurs subscribing to leftwing ideology. In Kashmir during the Cultural Congress years there were times when politics overtook the poetry and other genres of literature, leaving little fun and literature in it. It turned into bland propaganda. KS: What were the main activities of Cultural Congress? ADM: It used to publish a monthly journal in Kashmiri, 'Kwongposh', organise Bazm-e-Kwongposh meetings in different areas and hold interactions with progressive writers outside J&K. I was sub-editor of 'Kwongposh'. The journal ran for 25 issues or so. Two of my short stories 'Kolehwaan' and 'Soneh Vudar' were published in this journal. Main contributors to the journal included Dina Nath Nadim, Som Nath Zutshi, Noor Mohammad Roshan, Rehman Rahi, Amin Kamil, GN Firaq, Tej Bahadur Bhan, Gh. Nabi Ariz, Aziz Haroon, etc. Editorials were mostly written by Nadim Sahib and Som Nath Zutshi. I used to take editorials for approval to Sadiq Sahib. He had to okay, making sure that these did not violate the policy directions. Sadiq would rarely make alterations and was non-interfering. For running the journal he used to contribute from his pocket and would also raise donations from others. He hated sycophancy. Kwongposh sold a few hundred copies a month. Every fortnight a day was fixed for holding Bazm-e-Kwongposh in mohallas where we had contacts. New songs were sung before the audience. We would explain the importance of Kwongposh. Gani Namthali was a star singer in those meets. Nadim Sahib, HN Durrani and PN Jalali would also join these functions. These functions were organised at Rainawari, Ganpatyar etc. There were over 25 writers who were associated with Cultural Congress Movement. During this period I recited and published one of my poems in Navyug, a journal edited by Pt. Lambodar Tikoo: Nakhas Peth Levan hyeth Assan Groos Ta Vuchh Mazuras Dapan Vanya Karav Tajdari Chah Amanech Ta Jamohorich Krakh Chohpori and Uthe Hain Mudatonh Ke Baad Ik Saileh ravanh bankar Jo Nakshe ayey Samneh Usko mita Denge These  were against autocracy and feudalism and were praised by Prof. Apurab Somnath, the great scholar of English. He used to attend our meetings and mushairas occasionally. Poet Ariz composed the following: Nadim Chhu Nafa Gata Ariz Mool Chhu Mehjoor Majboor Pakan, Loor Dakhvith Zar Ta Ranzoor In 1955 when Russian leaders Nikita Khruschev and Bulganin visited Kashmir opera Bombar ta Yemberzal was staged in Nedous Hotel. It was written by Nadim and Noor Mohammad Roshan. Veteran artists Rajbans Khanna, Shivdan Singh Chohan and Sheila Bhatia were deputed to Kashmir by IPTA to help the movement launched by Cultural Congress. They would attend all our meetings. There were other writers who came from outside - Ali Sardar Jafri, KA Abbas etc. The latter would read his Kashmir related short stories at Writers meets. Rajbans Khanna's house at Wazirbagh used to be venue for Cultural meets. In 1952 our group went to Delhi to attend All India Progressive Writers' Association. It included Badri Nath Koul of Nishat Press, Rehman Rahi, Apurab Somnath, Somnath Zutshi, Aziz Haroon, besides myself. We had an opportunity to see Krishan Chander, Sahir Ludhiyanvi, Ismat Chugtai. I talked to Sahir and Majrooh Sultanpuri. We had lot of interaction with the great writers. I seconded a resolution, pertaining to peace. On the last day in the evening an open air Mushaira was held from 9 PM to 2 AM. The traffic stopped. Twenty thousand people listened with rapt attention and enjoyed the mehfil. Rashid Bakshi had organised a Cultural Forum to counter Cultural Congress. Two well-known writers from Cultural Congress had defected to his side, but the Forum petered out within few months only. KS: What was the impact of Progressive Cultural Congress Movement on Kashmiri Literature? ADM: It was the best thing that could happen for Kashmiri language. It helped in the development of Kashmiri language. For the first time short story and prose was written. It started with Nadim's Jawabi Card and Som Nath Zutshi's 'Yeli Phuli Gash' The short story was subsequently developed by Akhtar Mohiuddin, an Afsana Nigar of Calibre. Besides Nadim and Zutshi short stories were written by Tej Bahadur Bhan, Aziz Haroon and myself. Bhan wrote 'Vankha Pan', which was translated by me into Hindi. It received an award. He also wrote a novel 'Sailab Aur Katre'. Opera was written first time by Nadim. Later, Moti Lal Saqi also wrote an opera. Before Cultural Congress there was no tradition of prose writing in Kashmiri. Som Nath Zutshi and myself contributed to this genre. In the field of poetry-be it thought, subject or form, it got a new dimension. Nadim introduced free and blank verse besides Sonnet. I translated many of Shivdan Singh Chohan's writings for Kwongposh. The movement also influenced Mehjoor. Kashmiri language, hitherto the preserve of Sufiana singers, was brought closer to the masses, who began knowing its importance. There was focus on problems of common people, and on anti-imperialism in literature. By emphasizing these issues, there was de-emphasis on communal identities. Never before since Budshah's time a cultural movement with such sweep had hit Kashmir. KS: What about your political work during these years? ADM: 1947-1953 years were period of political uncertainty. Political discussions centred around how Kashmir would be resolved. People did not know what would ultimately happen. Poverty was rampant. My trade union work took me to Tral, Anantnag and other Tehsil headquarters. I participated in Cultural Congress activities at Budgam, Handwara, Kulgam, Soibug, Kralpora, Lasjan, Zanapora, Khan Sahib and different mohallas of Srinagar. The Lasjan rally where Sheikh Abdullah announced Land to the Tiller was virtually a show staged by Left group in National Conference. Slogans 'Jameen Kiski-Kisan Ki' rented the air. I was present at the rally. During my six years in Srinagar I came to know many people closely including such top leaders- NN Raina, ML Misri, Dhanwantri and Sadiq Sahib. Moti Lal Misri was a good orator. Sadiq Sahib would help the party cadres from his pocket whenever the cadres were in difficulties. During the DNC period I was victimised by Bakshi regime. KS: Can you elaborate? ADM: Bakshi  resorted to victimisation of DNC cadres and sympathisers. I had attended a meeting of DNC at Zanapora, my home village. Sadiq Sahib and other top leaders had come to address it. They were out of power. Soon after I received transfer orders for Leh. Dina Nath Parimoo, a teacher colleague of mine, tried to lure me to Bakshi’s side by offering inducements which I categorically refused inspite of the fact that my  family position was bad, father had died recently. Parimoo used to teach Bakshi's children at home and was a confidante of him. He was Basic Education officer. I remained under suspension for one year. DAV School Management, headed by Shri BD Nanda was sympathetic but expressed inability to help me out as there was no vacancy available in school. Party unit asked me to work in Mashal, the party mouth-piece. This assignment could hardly suffice my financial needs. I approached Sadiq Sahib for help. My wife was very sick. After a year Nadim Sahib helped me out. He approached Sansar Chand, the court singer of Bakshi who played Sitar. Every evening he used to regale Bakshi with his music. Bakshi was quite fond of Koshur Mosiqi. Sansar Chand asked Nadim to meet Bakshi in his presence. Bakshi was in great mood as he listened to Sansar Chand's number: 'Khoj Mehmood Chu Nawab Samrood Toiti Samay Chamaya Jami Jamay' When it was over, Nadim intervened to say to Bakshi, "You have put a family to trouble. This is spoiling your image. Majboor's wife is in hospital. His economic condition is not good. It takes 7-8 days to reach Leh. He is willing to go to Uri". Bakshi feigned ignorance about the whole affair. Soon after this my transfer orders were cancelled. I was posted to Govt. School Dooru. KS: Why did left movement fail in Kashmir? What has been its impact? ADM: The movement played positive impact prior to 1960. After that it lost its sheen, turned sectarian and got splintered with each group remaining a paper outfit. Many workers joined the government. There were structural problems also accounting for failure of the Left Movement. Lines were imposed from above without taking cognisance of the ground realities or the assessment of lower-level cadres. The leaders and senior cadres had obsession with ideology, theoretical issues and organisational matters and had little sensitivity to aspirations of common people. The party unit in Kashmir did not take decisions on its own but toed the line of central CPI leadership. Frequent changing of party line and splits left cadres confused. Attacks on religion also isolated cadres. In Kashmir senior leaders harboured jealousy against lower-level cadres, which brought in disillusionment in the latter. After 1960 the Kashmir left hardly played any meaningful role. KS: Your early poems have been in Urdu. How did you switch over to Kashmiri? ADM: It was due to my association with Kwongposh and Cultural Congress Movement. After writing a few poems in Kashmiri I shifted to short story. Then I again turned to poetry. It developed in Cultural Congress. My early poems were published in Kwongposh. Then my poems were also carried in Sunday Literary edition of Khidmat. KS: You have five collections of your poems. Do these have political message as the theme? ADM: I have not included my poems of Kwongposh in later anthologies. Only 'Aman Ta Zindagi' (Peace and Life) carries these. This book has six poems with themes- US intervention in Korea and Kashmir, Peace and Humanism etc. Poems in Dazvain Kosam (1987) deal with Namibia and depict human miseries, drought etc. One of my, fiery poem of early years is 'Jagirdara Thahar'. I have written in Paband as well as Free/Blank verse, Radeef- Qafia metric style. Subsequently, I left mannerism because stereotyping compromised beauty. In 1964 I wrote a poem with new diction and word beauty. Its title is "Shongan Yeli Raath Balan Shand Thavith" (When the night sleeps on the hills). It was liked by Nadim and others and later published as first poem in the year book of Kashmir - Son Adab. Though I started paying more attention to style and the craft of poetry I did not ignore the social role of a writer. My poems 'Shongian Yeli Raath." and Baharyin Zindagi Barabar, Zahar Chhu Aabe Hayat Chhavan, Cheh Racha Ta Masti Gulaib Royas, Mey Zahari Qatil Chhu Azmavan reflect protest against governance. Dashhaar (1983) carries poems written between 1973-1983. These are short poems, number of Ghazals is less. The poems are written in free verse and poetic beauty has increased. Leaves of Chinar (1975), which includes six poems, has been translated by RK Bharti from Kashmiri into English. A Malayali friend has translated these into Malayalam. KS: What are your experiences in Poetry? ADM: During the past 15 years there has been tremendous change in diction, theme, style, poetic usage, technique etc. Though I have stressed on poetry, theme and vocabulary remain quite relevant. Every poet lives in present and is influenced by the society and the environment he lives in. So poetry has to change and adopt new artistic techniques and changing themes. My poetry is optimistic, where there is abundance of nature, humanism, hope, struggle in life etc. I am basically a nazm poet, where ghazals are less. I have two experiences in poetry - Short poems and Longer poems. Prof. Amar Malmohi has reviewed my shorter poems in a 24-page essay in a thematic issue of Alav. Short poems of 22 writers were focused in the issue. My poetry has been recently rendered into music. KS: What inspired you to write longer poems? Which is your best poem? ADM: I was motivated to write longer poems by translation of Persian masnavis. Through these poems I wanted to communicate many things about Kashmir, terrorism, present situation which I could not do otherwise through short poems or ghazals. My longer poems are - Tyol (Pangs), Padi-Samayikh (Footprints of time), Wavasqun (Toward Wind). Tyol is my best poem. KS: Have you been influenced by Nadim? ADM: Not me alone but every Kashmiri writer since 1947 owes debt of gratitude to Nadim for adoption of form. But content, diction and dealing in my poetry is distinctively my own. KS: What have been your experiences in Translation Work? ADM: In 1973 I translated Kali Das's Meghdut into Kashmiri, giving it the title 'obre Shech'. This was a difficult job in the sense one had to be a good Sanskrit scholar and I had to give Kashmiri names for flowers. My friend Pushkar Nath Zadoo of Ganpatyar helped me in Sanskrit. He was himself engaged in translating Iqbal's poetry into Sanskrit. He was Shastri in Sanskrit. I helped him in Urdu. For Rajtarangini translation I relied on RS Pandit's translation. He knew English well and was a better scholar of Sanskrit than Sir Aurel Stein. The latter's translation is important because Stein visited all the places mentioned by Kalhana. I also translated monograph on Rahul Sankrityan. The author, unfortunately had not used much material available on Sankrityan. Besides, 12 famous short stories were translated by me from Kashmiri into Hindi. These were later published in Samkalin Bhartiya Sahitya (Sahitya Academy Journal) after 1963. KS: Kuliyat Lala Lakhman is your another work. ADM: In 1981 J&K Cultural Academy started a project on 'Lost Poets'. I was asked to work on compiling verses of Lala Lakhyman. The Kulliyat-i-Lala Lakhyman was published in 1982. My research starts from this project. Subsequently, I wrote a monograph in Hindi on Krishan Joo Razdan for Sahitya Academy. I translated some of his best poems from Kashmiri into Hindi. He bears strong Shaivite influence. I had already collected good material on him. Iqbal Nath of Vanpoh and other acquaintances of mine helped me to collect his date of birth and other necessary details. In exile I published a monograph of Arnimal, which set at rest raked up controversies on her historicity. KS: How good is verse of Lala Lakhyman? ADM: Lala Lakhyman's poems have poetic beauty, its form is excellent. In his characteristic style he resorts to lampooning (Tassana Chatun). Lala has written Leela poetry also. KS:  It must have been a difficult job collecting his Kalam. ADM: Lala did not keep a diary. He had terrific memory. His poetry was quite popular. People in Kulgam and adjoining areas would recite his complete poems without any fail.  I had to work very hard. I was helped by Ramchand, son of Lala's sister particularly in gathering Leelas. Mrs. Damodar Koul (Shobawati) of Bijbehara, a relation of mine helped me in compiling two of his poems - Mirhama Sal and some other poem. Somebody had compiled 50-60 verses of Lala on uneven marriages. This was not available to me. I collected his poems from people particularly from ladies . Bapar Mandal, Tota Gudrin Chaya, Gada Dyagul were narrated by Muslims. KS: Lala's Kalam has Pandit society as its focus. Have you been able to collect his entire Kalam? ADM: It is true that his poems dealing with society are specific to Pandit social milieu, but he has also written powerful satire against the administration. Some of his Kalam may have been lost for good. KS: What was people's response to your effort? ADM: People knew me in the area. They were quite cooperative and appreciated the job. Common people enjoyed his qalam, but sections of feudal elite hated him. There was class and gender basis for appreciation of poetry. KS: At places you have left names blank, Why so? ADM: My friend ML Goja asked me to delete certain names mentioned in certain poems, critical of their families. He argued that this would embarrass their children, who were quite important officials. One of the persons told me his family who lived at Niu has been referred to in 'Gada Diygol’. KS: You have worked on Rasul Mir also? ADM: I collected 10 new ghazals of Rasul Mir from various singers of Dooru Shahbad. These were published first time by Amin Kamil 15 years later. KS: What have been your other activities besides poetry? ADM: I have been writing short stories, essays on history and prehistoric Kashmir, besides conducting research on some of the famous poets - Lal Ded, Nadim, Arnimal, Mehjoor, Azad etc. My article on Lal Ded's birth-place Devar-Frastpur, near Panthachowk was published in Shiraza. Presently, I am working on birth-places of Nagarjun and Abhinav Gupta. I believe Nagarjun belonged to a place called Nageypur, near Dachigam Sanctuary. I once happened to read an article by a Delhi scholar, who had said Abhinav Gupta lived in east in some place called Nagaard. I wrote him back if Gudar in Kulgam could be this place, supporting it with local folklore. He replied that it could not be ruled out. KS: Have you ever attempted a novel? ADM: When I was in Udhampur in 2000 I had completed my historical novel--Vanvas (exile). After writing 12 chapters I found it became too heavy. I wanted to re-write it. Due to my neck injury I haven't able to pursue it further. KS: In what way is Exile reflect in it? ADM: I have tried to analyse rise of terrorism in a historical perspective in Vanvas. Besides this I have tried to depict nostalgia of  Kashmiri Pandits living abroad and the natural beauty and ethos of Kashmir. Then there are human forces who have come in the way of terrorists - ladies who saved many innocent people from the militants and others who had to flee. In refugee camps Pandit exiles continue to eke out a sub-human life. All this forms backdrop of my novel. The Novel is written in Nastalik Kashmiri. KS: Who are your favourite authors? ADM: Kalidas in Sanskrit, Ghalib in Urdu, Shakespeare and TS Eliot in English, Nagarjun, HR Bachan, Sumitra Nandan Pant in Hindi, Lal Ded, Krishnjoo Razdan and Abdul Ahad Azad in Kashmiri, Saidi, Rumi, Hafiz in Persian. Among Russians my pet authors have been Chekhov, Mayakovsky, Gorky and Sholokov. Kalidas' style, similes, vocabulary and description of nature have impressed me. Ghalib appeals to me because of his language-choice of words and their usage, liberal ideas, theme of ghazals, style, depth of poetry. Kalidas and Ghalib are greater poets than Iqbal. Lal Ded has used powerful similes to explain the philosophy of Shaivism. Her Vaakh style is crisp and can be remembered easily. Krishna Joo Razdan has great artistic beauty. His leelas carry sweet words. He was a shaivite and Leela poet of great calibre. He knew Sanskrit, Urdu and Persian. Azad's poetry was based on social realism. Saidi, Rumi, Hafiz-all had sweetness of language. They had depth in their poetry; nature, beauty, love are abundant in their poetry. They were liberal, had good human feelings. KS: What are your observations on languages akin to Kashmiri-Pogli, Siraji, Kishtwari? ADM: Due to big influx of Kashmiri migrants in Doda region, their mother tongue got mixed up with local languages. The latter are versions of this hybridisation. KS: What about the impact of Kashmiri on Dogri? ADM: One of my papers was published by Kurukhetra University in which I highlighted certain proverbs, words common to two languages. Two factors are responsible for it - Geographical contiguity and migration of Kashmiri people to Jammu region. KS: What is the impact of Sanskrit on Kashmir? ADM: 70% of Kashmiri wordstock is impacted by Sanskrit. KS: What is the future of Kashmiri Language? How good is the readership of your work? ADM: I cannot predict the future of Kashmiri Language at the level of people among Displaced Kashmiris. The writers and those who want to keep the language alive are doing a marvellous job, bringing out many journals which carry articles/poems in Kashmiri. There are websites which promote Kashmiri language and literature. Then there are problems which are not specific to Displaced Kashmiris only. The audience in general remains limited. 'Reading Kashmiri will not fetch jobs for our children' is the standard reply we hear. Script is also difficult. Even then we have produced good stuff in short story, poetry, novel writing. The problem is that it does not reach people, the readership continues to remain small. This is true of my works as well. My writings which have been translated into English have received good reviews. KS: What is the controversy about the script? What are your personal views? ADM: In Devnagri Kashmiri can be written well. Nastaliq script has been in use for quite good time, many books have been published in this script. Roman script is little difficult for writing Kashmiri, mistakes galore while writing in this script. Reviving Sarda, the original script of Kashmiri requires huge effort. Mehjoor was an advocate of Sarda script, while Amin Kamil favoured Roman script for use. I personally hold the view that there should no restrictions for use of any script for writing Kashmiri. KS: Do you originally hail from Zanapur? ADM: We originally belong to Kawadara, in downtown Srinagar. Pt. Govind Koul, my grandfather dealt in cloth business. He used to bring his merchandise to Zanapur for sale, and would stay at Pt. Reshi Bhat's house.  Subsequently, he married Reshi Bhat's sister, Zoon and settled at Zanapura. He had five sons, Kailash Koul my father was the youngest. My grandmother was a brave lady, who could get hold of a hundred sheep and then put salt ball into their mouth. KS: How did Majboor get associated with you? ADM: My actual name is Arjun Nath Koul. It was changed to Arjun Dev by authorities at Dayanand Mahavidalaya, Lahore. Once in Srinagar  I happened to see a movie, Majboor. It befitted the conditions of the time and my life. I adopted it, despite advice to the contrary by my well-wishers. KS: Zanapur of your childhood and adolescent years must have been quite backward? ADM: It was quite backward, with a vast impoverished peasantry. There were just 2-3 shops, and same number of government employees, doing small jobs as Patwari or in Education department. Pt. Dina Nath Raina alias Tar was first matriculate of the village. I was the second one. There was stark poverty both among Muslims as well as Pandits. The occasion for taking meat was Shivratri festival or when a guest would drop in. The milk was not for sale, neighbours would share it freely. Barter system was in vogue. The people were full of compassion, love and brotherhood. Poverty did not stand in the way of hospitality. KS: Where did you have your schooling? ADM: I had my primary education in Zanapur. The school was housed in a shanty house, its mud floor would emit stink. We had teachers from both communities - Pandits as well as Moulvis. A teacher who stayed at our house used to give me free tuitions in the evening. >From 6th Class I joined Govt Middle School, Raghu Nath Mandir, Srinagar. Sh S.L.  Labroo was the Head Master. He used rod quite liberally. English was taught from 6th standard. I stayed at Bohri Kadal. As my health deteriorated I was put in Govt. Middle School (Anglovernacular), Shopian. My school was 6 miles away from Jamnagri, where I was putting up. In summers I would get up at 5 AM and reach school by 7 O'Clock. The school would close at 1 PM. I would take food on the way by the side of a stream. My father was posted in Shopian Court. I passed 8th in 1937. It was during this time I happened to see first time a Kashmiri Pandit who had done his Masters in Arts. Another incident worth recalling is when Inspector Schools Mehndi Ratta visited our school. Boys used to wear Pagri. He reached out to a boy, who looked quite shabby in his Pagri and Coat. The Inspector asked him the reason for his uncleanliness. Without battling an eyelid, the boy replied: "Sir, I am poor". It was the standard excuse those days. Pt Dina Nath Hanjura was a teacher in National High School, Shopian. He was quite renowned for excellent teaching. Since Mission School, Anantnag was only a Middle School, I was sent back to Srinagar and enrolled in MP School, Dilawar Khan in 9th Class. This school was located in idyllic surroundings, near the Mangleshwar Bhairav. In late 1980s when I visited the area I was dismayed to find that neither the marsh nor the house where I stayed existed any more. The marsh used to look so beautiful. The school had an excellent ambience, with majestic Chinars abounding in its compound and a playfield in its periphery. My Form teacher was Sh. BN Chattoo. He had fancy to talk in English. Two of the Head Masters of MP School had earned nicknames due to their peculiar mannerism. Pt. Radhakrishan Koul was called Meem, an English lady, for his attire. He was smartly dressed with a neck tie and a well-fashioned turban. The other teacher, Gh. Rasool was nicknamed 'Tabardar'. He resorted to corporal punishment too often. We had a student from an affluent family of shawls. His excellent dress singled him out in the school. I took my Matriculation Examination at Mission School, Lal Chowk. KS: Where did you stay during your years at MP School? ADM: I stayed with my pufi Zai Ded, married to Pt. Aftab Joo Gadroo of Bohri Kadal. After the death of my pufi, the brothers of her husband-Ved Lal, Ishar Dass and Sudarshan looked after me well. Ved Lal Ji was a draftsman and lived in style. He used to host a musical fiesta on his birthdays. The celebrated singer Sham Lal Kutwal would be the singer on the occasion. Kutwal would be served whisky before dinner. This would help him entertain the audience by churning out melodious gazals, Leelas and folk songs throughout the night. Till then I had no idea about what Whisky was. I presumed Kutwal was given water from Chashmashahi spring to clear his throat. The bazar of Bohri Kadal, with its famous Gada Kocha (Fish Market) is still fresh in my memory. KS: What are your experiences of Srinagar of that time? ADM: I liked the city immensely. I alongwith my friends would get up at 4 AM and often go for 'pratikhana' (circumambulation) of Hari Parbat. Tulmulla was a popular shrine frequented by Pandits. The Pandit ladies would go to Hari Parbat in wee hours without any fear. The charming Dal Lake and White Wooden Horse at Residency Road fascinated me. Watching Dussehra was quite popular, people would throng to the venue in tongas. A tonga would charge one anna as fare from Zanakdal to Lal Chowk. Cars were rare. Daily Martand and Khidmat were popular papers. The former, priced at one anna, came early and was delivered at home. I had not seen a ten rupee currency note till I passed matriculation. Bus service to suburbs was not regular. For going to Srinagar we had to foot the distance to Bijbehara and wait endlessly for the bus to come from Anantnag. At times the bus would play truant and come the next day. The fare to Srinagar was six annas. KS: What was the living standard of people those days? ADM: The people lived below poverty line. Pandits used to take Kehwa in the morning. Bread would sell for one paisa a loaf, Kulcha for ½ a paisa. Kids were served 1/4th or ½ the loaf, yet they would not grumble. Pocket money was unthinkable. Commodities were cheaper, money was even scarcer. The rates were: Saag - 16 packs a paisa, meat-4 annas a pav, nadru-two seers for 4 annas etc. KS: What did you do after passing Matriculation? ADM: I worked on a leave vacancy in the State Cooperative Department for six months at Karan Nagar, there was a cooperative Training School. Students were taught about the Cooperative Movement there. Abdul Aziz, a lecturer was quite pleased with my performance here. For a while I worked as an apprentice in the court. This did not appeal to me. Meanwhile, I applied for admission in 'Dayanand Mahavidalaya', Lahore. Veteran Broadcaster Pt. Shamboo Nath Bhat Haleem belonged to my area and was an active Arya Samaj worker. He was already a student of the institution and had asked me to apply for admission. I was selected for Sahitya Ratan, a 4-year course in Sanskrit. Punjab University would allow these students to sit in MA English later on. KS: Did you have any contact with Arya Samaj in Kashmir? ADM: Not much. I knew activists like Prem Nath Bira, Dina Nath Bamchuntoo etc. Patriotic and social reform elements in Arya Samaj would appeal to me. I was also impressed by Satyarth Prakash of Swami Dayanand. KS: You had received an offer of 'Nazir' in court around the same time. ADM: Only few days after I landed at Lahore I received two telegrams from my father. He had asked me to return to Srinagar without any delay to join as 'Nazir' in the court. As I did not respond, he himself came some days later. I left it to Shamboo Nath Bhat Haleem, my senior in the institution, to explain to him the advantages of my continuing education here. Father left with great reluctance. KS: Pandit leader Kashyap Bandhu had also worked with Arya Samaj in Lahore. What were his political views? ADM: He used to be at Virjanand Ashram. The ashram management gave him his new name. He came to Kashmir after the events of July 1931. I have already published a 40-page biographical essay on him in Urdu. He used to send me 'Desh', both at Zanapora and at Lahore. This would keep me abreast of latest political situation at home. In the years he was active in the anti-autocratic movement he supported socialism. In fact, he, wrote an editorial in Desh: 'Samajvad Hi Qiyon", explaining the virtues of socialism. In his later years when I was posted in his home village Geru I found him changed. He would use a peculiar epithet to describe communists. Bandhu Ji once told me that his religious identity marred his political career when he had  all the potential to emerge as foremost leader of Kashmiris KS: When did you see Bandhuji first time? ADM: I met Bandhuji first time in Vasanta School Chowk office of Desh, near Kralkhud before going to Lahore. His matamal was in Zanapora. At Geru where I was posted in later years I would meet him every Friday. This provided me the material for writing an exhaustive essay on him. He had good diction and wrote literary Urdu. His journalistic talent was superb. Bandhuji kept a good library. KS: Did you get any stipend at Dayanand Mahavidalaya? ADM: Rs 40 per month was given as stipend. It was quite sufficient to meet our expenses. One Pt. Raghav Ram Bhat of Badsargam, who was an Arya Samaj worker and served in Army, used to send me Rs 10 per month. After becoming an Arya Samaj worker, he changed his name to Mahasha Raghav Ram. KS: How was the atmosphere at the institution Hostel? ADM: Lahore was a historic city, but quite hot in summer. There was no dearth of water in the hostel. The hostel had spacious accommodation. We had to wash clothes ourselves. Classes would start at 7 AM and finish at 1 PM. A glass of milk was served at 9 AM. There was no tea nor could we go to watch films. The hostel looked like a mini-India with students from different regions studying here. We came to know about each other's culture. It was a very cordial atmosphere. We discussed politics, Kashmir, different languages and cultures etc. KS: Who were your contemporaries at the college? ADM: We had students from all parts of India - Kerala, Tamil Nadu, Punjab, Garhwal, Karnataka etc. One Narayanan went on to become Professor of English at JNU. Satyavarta of Garhwal became a painter of repute. Shamboo Nath Bhat Haleem became a famous broadcaster. He has developed Kashmiri section of Koshur Samachar. Haleem Sahib rejuvenated Kashmiri news of AIR, introducing innovative Kashmiri words and bringing life in news. KS: Something about the teachers who taught here? ADM: Prof. Ishwar Chandra taught philosophy and was a giant among scholars. A nice human being he was an agnostic. He loved to take classes in hat and knickers (shorts). Professor Chandra was liberal to the core. He always wore a smile on his face, anger was alien to his nature. Students had free access to him. He spoke fluent Sanskrit. At times his lectures looked too terse. He would often take us to Sanskrit Goshties which were held once a week in DAV College. Leading luminaries of Sanskrit would take part in these literary gatherings. Prof. Chandra's presentations would be flawless, he would not pause while making delivery of presentations. Swami Vedanand Tirath was the Principal of Daya Nand Mahavidalaya. A profound Vedic scholar, he had complete mastery over Urdu, Arabic, Sanskrit and English. He was a true 'Sanyasi'. His meals were frugal. At times it would be my honour to fetch his meals from Krishna Nagar. He invariably took 4 phulkas and a Katori of Dal. His simple big residential room used to be stuffed with hundreds of books, covered nicely in ochre-coloured cloth. His mastery over Vedas made him a legend in his lifetime. He had authored a number of books on Vedic research. Swamiji was a virtuoso in the art of translation. He could effortlessly translate from one language to the other-be it Urdu, Sanskrit, Arabic or English. Prof. Shiv Dutt was another great teacher who taught Arabic. This was my optional subject. KS: You haven't mentioned anything about Hindi. What was its status in those days? ADM: Those days Hindi was called the language of ladies, mainly English and Urdu were in vogue. KS: What about the Library? ADM: The institution had a big library and a fine reading room. It was here I got the opportunity to go through the works of Munshi Prem Chand. The 'Mangal Sutra', his last novel was not available. It remains my regret that even upto this time I haven't been able to get hold of this book. The library used to get all the newspapers and journals available in Lahore. KS: What about the Lahore of those days? ADM: Milap, Partap and Zamindar, all dailies in Urdu were published here. Times of India, Vishal Bharat, Illustrated weekly of India were freely available. I had the privilege to see Khushal Chand Khurasand, the editor and owner of Milap in his editorial office. A staunch Arya Samaji, he turned into a Sanyasi adopting the name as Anand Swami. Mahasha Krishen was editor of Partap. He used to wear dhoti and would dictate daily editorial to a clerk while enjoying a walk in his garden. Thakur Dutt, the proprietor of Amritdhara used to entertain students with good dishes. Allama Iqbal had passed away. His Kothi was at Majang Road. Shalamar garden had an artificial hillock. It was full of fountains and Jamun trees. Generally, we visited places like Wachoowali, Shah Alami Gate, Anarkali Bazar, Mall Road etc. The main city - Wachoowali quarter had narrow lanes, where houses had no windows. Light pierced through the roof. It was true of even Punjab Assembly building, which was otherwise an architectural marvel. Its roof was covered with glass. In Shah Alami Darwaza, the old city area, the gate carried beautiful life-size frescoes-which depicted (Nightingale) bulbul resting on a tree. Model Town, a new colony had come up. Houses were better ventilated here, roads too were wider. In the Anarkali area big houses and shops used to brim with bright light. It had a big bazar, to which British customers would throng. We had heard about Hira Mandi also. On the Mall Road Britishers used to enjoy  tea  under big Chhatris at roadside stalls. We did not engage in any political activity while at college, but often went to hear speeches of political leaders. I once heard Raja Gazanfar Ali's speech in Assembly. He would roar like a lion. The other leaders whose speeches I had the opportunity to listen to were-Jinnah, Nehru, BPL Bedi, Nawab Ali Yavar Jung. Maharaja Hari Singh also came once. On another occasion Yavar Jung held the audience spell-bound by speaking for over 2½ hours. Kashmiri labourers used to work in Rice and Flour Mills of Lahore. They would feel happy on meeting us and would narrate their tales of woe. KS: What were your experiences with Arya Samaj here? ADM: From Lahore I once went to attend Hindu Mahasabha conference at Amritsar. There was a cane charge, which left Late Shyama Prasad Mukerjee injured. During this trip I also learnt how wealthy people were misusing religious organisations to promote their business. Baba Gurmukh Singh would give Rs 1 lakh for Vedic Prachar but extract Rs 7 lakh in return. This made me disillusioned with Arya Samaj. In Amritsar Conference one lakh people had attended the Mahasabha Conference. KS: When did you and Haleem Sahib leave Lahore? ADM: SN Bhat Haleem wanted to do Prabhakar at Jammu but the institution authorities did not allow him to go. My friends Nachiketa (of Kerala) and Narayanan made Haleem Sahib flee from the Vidyalaya at 2 AM in the night. Tonga had been kept ready to take him to the station. I remained in Lahore for three years. When riots broke out in July 1946 in Model Town I came to Srinagar for vacation and did not go back. British had instigated the communal riots. My course remained unfinished. I did MA in Hindi from Kashmir University in 1961. KS: How people used to travel to Lahore those days? ADM: I went to Lahore first time via Sialkot. In Jammu Parade used to be the bus stand. Railway Station was just across the Tawi bridge. Jammu was a small city with just seventy thousand souls living in it. Tonga would charge 4 annas from Parade to Railway Station. We would leave Jammu at 5.30 AM, take Frontier Mail from Wazirabad Junction and reach Lahore by 2 PM. The Journey via Rawalpindi was through a picturesque landscape. Two tunnels had to be crossed in railway journey from Lahore to Rawalpindi. The latter was a busy town, where Kashmiri apples were sold. The merchandise from Rawalpindi to Kashmir was carried in bullock carts and the road was named Jehlum Valley Cart Road. Rs 1 used to be paid for stay per night as per  Sir Younghusband those days while in transit. It was one day journey by bus from Rawalpindi to Srinagar. 'Allied Charag Din and Sons', ran about ten buses on this road. Its Srinagar office was located at Neelam Hotel area in Lal Chowk. The fare was Rs 10 from Rawalpindi to Lahore and Rs 2 from Srinagar to Jammu. KS: What did you do after coming from Lahore? ADM: I joined Daily Hamdard as an Advertising Manager, with monthly remuneration of Rs 30. The office used to be where present CPI office was located. The Editor-owner Prem Nath Bazaz had a separate room in the office. Sh. Nand Lal Wattal was Asstt. Editor. Besides Makhan Lal Mhow, a mazahiya (humourist) poet and clerk Somnath there were eight people on the staff. Bazaz for some time edited Vitasta also. It was at Hamdard office I first saw poet Abdul Ahad Azad. He would come once a week to meet Bazaz, the two would remain engrossed in discussions for hours together. Azad's poems were published regularly in Hamdard. He used to wear white turban, Coat and Shelwar. The Editorials were usually written by Shri NL Wattal, but important editorials were penned down by Sh. Bazaz himself. Bazaz wrote the famous editorial "Door Basat Hai Desh Sunehra" (Situation will change for good) on Dyalagam Kisan Conference. I also attended this conference held at Fatehpur Vudar. The gathering comprised mostly middle peasantry, but surprisingly Bazaz had also invited Arwani landlord Makru. Mhow recited his poems at the conference. Hamdard work began to take toll of my health. I used to have frequent bouts of Dysentery. We were living in a joint accommodation. I complained to Bazaz that remuneration was quite insufficient to meet my needs. He said to me that "Na Nav Man Tel Hoga Na Radha Nachegi". Bazaz was not warm in his personal dealings. I resigned from Hamdard in March 1947. Then after working for six months at Arya Girls High School at Hazuri Bagh, Srinagar I joined DAV High School at Magarmal Bagh. I served here till 1954 when I was appointed as Government teacher in a school at Utterso, Achabal. Source: Kashmir Sentinel __._,_.___ From akmalik45 at yahoo.com Wed May 20 10:11:22 2009 From: akmalik45 at yahoo.com (A.K. Malik) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 21:41:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] plight of the muslim women and appeasement Message-ID: <746179.89525.qm@web39102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Anupamji& Rakeshji, Please check up whether it is the trust which gives money or the Govt of Delhi. Even if I agree to what you say, it is no business of Govt machinery to distribute money to the students in the school through govt officials on behalf of Trust of a specific religion.Let the trust distribute money to anyone outside- who bothers then.It is the tender minds of kids who feel discrimination on the basis of religion. Distracting a little -seen saying kids Papa aap SC/ST hote to kitna achha hota. It is a debateable issue and I agree benefits of reservations could be given to underprivileged for sometime based only on Caste because they had been discrminated for several years.Would you justify this:--My colleague at Joint Secy level in Govt got his sons admitted to Engineering and Medicine while a poor driver's son can't make it because he happens to be from a higher caste.Let us stop the reservations or appeasement to section of society who don't deserve the same.Since the Trust is Muslim so no one can criticize.What I read through and opine that had this been done for Hindu girls, there would have lots of secularists coming up to criticise. I have yet to see a local sweeper's son making it to engineering because they are unable to move beyond 8th class.My only submission is that the benefits should accrue to people who really deserve the same irrespective of caste, creed or religion. 2. MP govt's scheme and there is a similar one of Delhi Govt( some scheme from UP as well ) which gives benefits to girl childern born in the respective states. Please Anupamji note that these schemes are not religion based, applicable to girl child of any religion but must be born in that state which is giving the benefits.There is no use looking at justifications,pliable officers in Govt can justify or unjustify anything. If you have seen political appointments or selections one is not appointed just because he/she is intelligent and deserves but because they happen to be from a particular religion and you can be called Secular amd mind you,You are only Secular if you appoint a person from the miniority religion and not otherwise. (A.K.MALIK) --- On Mon, 5/18/09, anupam chakravartty wrote: > From: anupam chakravartty > Subject: [Reader-list] plight of the muslim women and appeasement > To: "sarai list" > Date: Monday, May 18, 2009, 11:19 AM > Perhaps Mr malik is not aware of the > fact that plight of the muslim women > among facing the gender discrimination is worst in india. > it is true that > Maulana Azad Trust has been Rs 500 to disburse Rs 300 > scholarship each to > the muslim girls. > > i dont see a reason why as you have cited that extra Rs 300 > given to a > muslim girl, while free books and copies are given equally > to other kids is > a question of muslim appeasement. can you explain why have > you used a word > like appeasement to describe an initiative that helps most > discriminated > ones? how many hindu families are willing to say that dont > give them Rs 300 > -- wouldn't rather say give us Rs 300 as well? > > anupam > On 5/18/09, Rakesh Iyer > wrote: > > > > Dear Malik jee > > > > If what you have stated is true (meaning that a Hindu > poor can't get that > > additional amount but a Muslim rich can), then I must > say it is wrong; > > whether it can be termed appeasement or not in my own > definition I would > > have to figure out. I believe that appeasement is > pleasing for the sake of > > pleasing. It could be appeasement if this amount is > being provided but no > > proper education is being given in these schools (I > presume these are govt. > > schools and not private schools. Please do correct me > if I am wrong)) > > > > However, I would be very happy if you can provide me > with the following > > details: > > > > A) Is this scheme known by some name, which I can read > and get information > > about in net? Can you provide me some links to this > about which I can read > > more into? > > > > B) Are there any reasons based on which this has been > justified? > > > > C) Are there specific areas in which this is being > implemented? Or are > > there > > some special areas where it is being implemented? > > > > Ultimately, each scheme must be checked in its context > to find out whether > > it indeed is a case of appeasement or it's a case of > helping people. Hence, > > I need to get more information about this. > > > > What's more, since the amount is being given to Muslim > girls, one can > > certainly understand that being a patriarchial > society, with any > > deterioration in law and order or with any chance for > men to portray their > > authority, women are the first victims and girls are > therefore denied the > > chance to be educated on this logic. May be the govt > thought that since the > > insecurity among Muslims is greater and therefore they > may not send their > > girls at all to be educated, this idea was hit upon. > So again, one has to > > look at the logic being given by the Delhi govt. for > this. > > > > So one must look at the rationale of this. If it is > meant for economic > > reasons, then it could be appeasement. If it is meant > for security reasons, > > then it can't be appeasement; what can be done is to > suggest alternatives > > so > > that all girls are given incentives to be taught. For > example, if the NREGA > > and the RTI can be brought, why not introduce the > Ladli Laxmi Yojana that > > Advani was talking about in his campaign. (Introduced > in MP, as soon as a > > girl is born, a bank account is opened in her name and > a certain amount is > > added monthly in her account. At the age of 18, this > money sums up to Rs. > > 1,00,000/- and the girl can take it out. This can be > introduced for BPL > > families or even APL families upto a certain income > limit.) > > > > But as I said, if what you say is true, yes, it can be > a case of > > appeasement, if the actual education being provided is > useless and the only > > benefit for Muslims is to get Rs. 300/-. > > > > Also one more thing. Please see the reasons and > rationale for doing things; > > don't construe each and every act as act of > appeasement. > > > > Regards > > > > Rakesh > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Wed May 20 10:30:53 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 10:30:53 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] plight of the muslim women and appeasement In-Reply-To: <746179.89525.qm@web39102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <746179.89525.qm@web39102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Malik jee If you wish to say that benefits like reservation must be based on economic criteria, to quite a substantial extent (leaving aside SC and ST), I would agree, as it is not going to help if only the affluent among the upper castes, the backward castes or the Muslims or other minorities are getting admissions and posts based on reservations. It's the poor and the downtrodden among these communities which require reservation. However, when we do provide such reservation, then we have to ensure that these people have the capacity to get absorbed through such reservations, otherwise it's going to be of no use. For example, if the poor can't avail of education even upto 10th std, then what is the use of providing them reservation in IIT's and IIM's ? Therefore, it's time we debate upon the idea of reservation to bring about benefits to different communities. The same argument also extends for SC's and ST's. At the same time, one must not forget that one of the benefits of introducing reservation was to increase national unity, and whether one likes it or not, this is something which can't be debated. If there would have been no reservation for SC's and ST's too, these would also have felt useless and would have joined themselves to causes which indulge in violence (at least a part have done so through Naxalism), and I feel the Naxalite problem may have been greater, along with violence due to caste discrimination and casteism. I have no problems with reservation as a move, it's just that I accept your point that reservation for any caste or religion or community must be debated, and the previous effects of reservation must be studied while undertaking any new reservations to ensure that these actually turn effective. And if that means reservation for poor across all castes and communities has to be provided, so be it. Regards Rakesh From vedavati_jogi at yahoo.com Wed May 20 10:25:13 2009 From: vedavati_jogi at yahoo.com (Vedavati Jogi) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 10:25:13 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Election Forecast Message-ID: <101411.44743.qm@web94709.mail.in2.yahoo.com> after reading secular mails on this readers list i am thoroughly convinced that very soon india will be a muslim country because muslims are going to outnumber hindus by 2050 and hindus will have to pay jizia (the way sikhs in pakistan are paying)   ( unfortunately or fortunately )muslims don't descriminate between seculars and others for them hindus are hindus and not brahmins/dalits/marathas/seculars/communals etc. so all of us - you as well as me will have to pay jizia.   be mentally ( and financially also) prepared.   vedavati --- On Mon, 18/5/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: From: Rakesh Iyer Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Election Forecast To: "anupam chakravartty" Cc: "sarai list" Date: Monday, 18 May, 2009, 5:20 PM Dear Vedavati Before pointing fingers at others, look at oneself. Considering the demand of Hindus like you, if BJP were to come to power (either as coalition or on their own), the sword would be hanging on the head of the minorities as to when their women would be raped, their children would be left parent-less and when their lives would be destroyed. It's certainly good that UPA has come to power, and now we have one less issue to focus upon (which is minority rights), at least upto a certain extent. When the NDA was in power, we had to focus on jokers like Praveen Togadia, Ashok Singhal, Acharya Dharmendra, some more useless sadhus and mahants, and also Modi mania. Unnecessarily at some point of time or other, there would be some nonsense shilanyas and some daan or the other. At least under the UPA, such useless antics are out. While Kandhamal, Karnataka and Mangalore indeed have taken place, at least a widespread pogrom has not taken place. And as for Bangladesh and Pakistan, thanks to Hindus like you, I can say comfortably that if people like you were to come to power (in any party or form), we would become a Hindu rashtra where our minorities would be living worse than second class citizens. And you are not a secular anyway, and you are a Hindu. India is secular not because Hindus are in majority. India is secular because majority of the people live as a secular society does (irrespective of whether they believe in secularism). They don't want conflicts for umpteen no. of reasons. And they can see through the political game of our Hindutva and fundamentalist Islamic friends. As for Muslim nations which are secular, go to Turkey, Indonesia and Malaysia. Regards Rakesh PS: I wonder where our Modi bhai is, now that results are out for the general election. Everybody is talking about Advani not talking to media. Seems Modi is another version of Advani. When things are going against him, he is the first one (like Advani) to hide and run away. And he is supposedly the 'next PM' candidate of BJP in 2014. Jaisa Guru, waisa chela........jai ho!! _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter http://beta.cricket.yahoo.com From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Wed May 20 10:36:27 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 10:36:27 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Election Forecast In-Reply-To: <101411.44743.qm@web94709.mail.in2.yahoo.com> References: <101411.44743.qm@web94709.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Vedavati You are already so scared of Muslims....I wonder what your plight would be if you were passing through the old areas of any city which are generally Muslim dominated. If you are already so afraid of Muslims (who are also Indians), I sometimes feel what would a 'nationalist' do for the country if sent to the border. Probably you would run away seeing Pakistani soldiers as they too would be mainly Muslims. This mistrust is not going to help you sir, nor is it going to help India, even from the nationalist perspective. Therefore, for India's sake (if not yours), get rid of this disease called mistrust. Get well soon. Regards Rakesh From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Wed May 20 12:05:41 2009 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 12:05:41 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Disintegrated Kashmiri pandits unite for homeland Message-ID: <6353c690905192335o5adbcc08p2d65478f855951c2@mail.gmail.com> *Disintegrated Kashmiri pandits unite for homeland* *PTI* *Jammu: May 19* Two major factions of a Kashmiri pandit organisation today united and decided to intensify their demand for homeland with a union territory status in the Kashmir valley. Panun Kashmir (PK) and Panun Kashmir Movement (PKM) came together for the common cause as four lakh Kashmiri pandits wanted a homeland. "Two of the most significant and influential groups- PK and PKM have come together on a permanent basis for attaining homeland in Kashmir,"PK convenor Agnishekhar and president of PKM Ashwani Kumar told reporters here. PK, which had given the slogan of"carving out a homeland with union territory status for the Kashmiri pandits in the valley", had disintegrated into three factions in 2003. The struggle for the Kashmiri pandits has entered into a crucial phase and there was a yearning in the community for unity among us, leaders of the factions said adding it will encourage other groups to follow suit and hasten the attainment of homeland in Kashmir. They said now they would intensify their agitation and hold a joint convention on May 30 in Jammu . From rajenradhika at vsnl.net Wed May 20 12:17:39 2009 From: rajenradhika at vsnl.net (rajenradhika at vsnl.net) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 11:47:39 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: reader-list Digest, Vol 70, Issue 103 Message-ID: with a request to administrator, sarai.net to register me as member with my new id, rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com rajen. From parthaekka at gmail.com Wed May 20 12:31:51 2009 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 12:31:51 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: reader-list Digest, Vol 70, Issue 103 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <32144e990905200001u7b948a64gaf2dfe1d37d4b28b@mail.gmail.com> Go to the URL Subscribe Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 12:17 PM, wrote: > with a request to administrator, sarai.net to register me as member with > my new id, rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com > > rajen. > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From anansi1 at earthlink.net Wed May 20 12:43:56 2009 From: anansi1 at earthlink.net (Paul D. Miller) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 03:13:56 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [Reader-list] Science Fiction from the Global South Message-ID: <12368139.1242803637290.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net> I just thought I'd pass this along Paul/Dj Spooky Science Fiction From Below Alex Rivera, director of the new film Sleep Dealer, imagines the future of the Global South. by Mark Engler Foreign Policy In Focus - May 13, 2009 http://www.fpif.org/fpiftxt/6116 Tapping into a long tradition of politicized science fiction, the young, New-York-based filmmaker Alex Rivera has brought to theaters a movie that reflects in news ways on the disquieting realities of the global economy. Sleep Dealer, his first feature film, has opened in New York and Los Angeles, and will show in 25 cities throughout the country this spring. Set largely on the U.S.-Mexico border, Sleep Dealer depicts a world in which borders are closed but high- tech factories allow migrant workers to plug their bodies into the network to provide virtual labor to the North. The drama that unfolds in this dystopian setting delves deeps into issues of immigration, labor, water rights, and the nature of sustainable development. Rivera's film drew attention by winning two awards at Sundance--the Waldo Salt Screenwriting Award and the Alfred P. Sloan Prize for the best film focusing on science and technology. Los Angeles Times film critic Kenneth Turan wrote of the movie, "Adventurous, ambitious and ingeniously futuristic, Sleep Dealer. combines visually arresting science fiction done on a budget with a strong sense of social commentary in a way that few films attempt, let alone achieve." Rivera spoke with Foreign Policy In Focus senior analyst Mark Engler by phone from Los Angeles, where the director was attending the local premier of his movie. M.E.: How do you describe your film? A.R.: Sleep Dealer is a science fiction thriller that takes a look at the future from a perspective that we've never seen before in science fiction. We've seen the future of Los Angeles, in Blade Runner. We've seen the future of Washington, D.C., in Steven Spielberg's Minority Report. We've seen London and Chicago. But we've never seen the places where the great majority of humanity actually lives. Those are in the global South. We've never seen Mexico; we've never seen Brazil; we've never seen India. We've never seen that future on film before. M.E.: Your main character, Memo Cruz, is from rural Mexico, from Oaxaca. In many ways, the village that we see on film is very similar to many poor, remote communities today. It doesn't necessarily look like how we think about the future at all. What was your conception of how economic globalization would affect communities like these? A.R.: One of the things that fascinates me about the genre is that, explicitly or not, science fiction is always partly about development theory. So when Spielberg shows us Washington, DC with 15-lane traffic flowing all around the city, he's putting forward a certain vision of development. Sleep Dealer starts in Oaxaca, and to think about the future of Oaxaca, you have to think about how so-called "development" has been happening there and where might it go. And it's not superhighways and skyscrapers. That would be ridiculous. So, in the vision I put forward, most of the landscape remains the same. The buildings look older. Most of the streets still aren't paved. And yet there are these tendrils of technology that have infiltrated the environment. So instead of an old- fashioned TV, there is a high-definition TV. Instead of a calling booth like they have today in Mexican villages, where people call their relatives who are far away, in this future there is a video-calling booth. There's the presence of a North American corporation that has privatized the water and that uses technology to control the water supply. There are remote cameras with guns mounted on them and drones that do surveillance over the area. The vision of Oaxaca in the future and of the South in the future is a kind of collage, where there are still elements that look ancient, there is still infrastructure that looks older even than it does today, and yet there are little capillaries of high technology that pulse through the environment. ME: How far into the future did you set the film? A.R.: I started working on the ideas in Sleep Dealer ten years ago, and at that point I thought I was writing about a future that was forty or fifty years away, or maybe a future that might not ever happen. Over this past decade, though, the world has rapidly caught up with a lot of the fantasy nightmares in the film. That's been an interesting process. But, you know, a lot of times we use the word "futuristic" to describe things that are kind of explosions of capital, like skyscrapers or futuristic cities. We do not think of a cornfield as futuristic, even though that has as much to do with the future as does the shimmering skyscraper. M.E.: In what sense? A.R.: In the sense that we all need to eat. In the sense that the ancient cornfields in Oaxaca are the places that replenish the genetic supply of corn that feeds the world. Those fields are the future of the food supply. For every futuristic skyscraper, there's a mine someplace where the ore used to build that structure was taken out of the ground. That mine is just as futuristic as the skyscraper. So, I think Sleep Dealer puts forward this vision of the future that connects the dots, a vision that says that the wealth of the North comes from somewhere. It tries to look at development and futurism from this split point of view - to look at the fact that these fantasies of what the future will be in the North must always be creating a second, nightmare reality somewhere in the South. That these things are tied together. M.E.: It's interesting that at the recent Summit of the Americas, Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez gave President Obama a copy of Eduardo Galeano's Open Veins of Latin America. This is a book that was written over 30 years ago, but that really emphasizes the same point that you are making now, that underdevelopment is not an earlier stage of development, but rather is the product of development. That development and underdevelopment go hand in hand. A.R.: Exactly. And I think that you can also add immigration into that mix. Because the history that Open Veins lays out is a lot about resource exploitation and transfer from South to North. And today, of course, one of the main entities that places like Mexico export is workers. M.E.: There's a quote from the film that says a lot. Memo's boss, who runs this sort of high-tech Mexican sweatshop, says, "We give the United States what it's always wanted. All the work without the workers." Can you describe this concept of the "cybracero" that you have been developing? A.R.: The central idea for this film occurred to me about ten years ago when I was reading an article in Wired magazine about telecommuting. The article was making all of these fantastic predictions that, in the future, there won't be any traffic jams anymore, and no one will have to ride the subway, because everyone will work from home. Well, I come from a family that's mostly immigrant, a family in which my cousins are still arriving and working in landscaping and construction. I tried to put them into this fantasy of working from home - when their home is Peru, 3000 miles away, and their work is construction. And so I came up with this idea of the telecommuting immigrant, where in the future the borders are sealed, workers stay in the South, and they connect themselves to a network through which they control machines that perform their labor in the North. The end result is an American economy that receives the labor of these workers but doesn't ever have to care for them, and doesn't have to fear that their children will be born here, and doesn't ever have to let them vote. When I started this project, the idea of a remote worker was political satire. About eight years ago, it became a reality in the call centers of India and in the idea of off-shoring information-processing jobs that could be done in real time by people on the other side of the planet. My movie goes further by putting forward a vision of remote manual laborers. What if somebody in India could drive a taxi in New York or bus dishes in a restaurant in Los Angeles? I wonder, do we live in a world where it would be acceptable to have someone in Jakarta laying the bricks for a building that's being built next door to us? I think under the rules of the economy that we live with, if that were technically possible, it would be considered morally acceptable. It's just another stage of globalization. Yet it seems so surreal, and it makes me wonder: What kind of social order would that produce? What kind of communities would that produce? M.E.: At the same time, I think in the film you suggest that this new technology also has the possibility to connect people across great distances. I wonder how you weigh the alienating effects of technology with some of its redemptive potential? A.R.: To me, Sleep Dealer is a parable, a myth. There are three characters: One is a remote worker. The second is a remote soldier - a person who is in the United States but flies a drone that patrols the South. And the third character is a kind of writer, a blogger, who connects her body to the network and uploads, not words that she is typing, but rather her memories. And by sharing her memories she is able to let people see these far-away realities that maybe they're not supposed to. She's able to use technology to erase borders for a moment. And to me, that is the tension of the moment we're living in. We live in a moment when the military is using technology to wage remote war. Corporations are using technology to move extraordinarily quickly around the globe to take advantage of weak environmental standards and weak labor standards. And yet, we're living in the moment of the social forums, which are organized over the network. We're living in the age of the Zapatistas, who in 1994 sent messages by horseback, messages written on paper, to Internet cafes where they could be sent out as press releases and could be used to build a global network of solidarity. We're living in a time when I'm starting to hear tremors from the labor movement about creating cross-border unions, which will also be built over the network. So I think we're in this moment when we don't know who will be more empowered by this connectivity and by new technology. And that's the battle in Sleep Dealer. It's over the future of this connected planet and what kind of globalization we'll be living in. M.E.: Beyond immigration politics, the commodification and privatization of water is a major theme in the film. How did you choose water as an issue you would focus on? A.R.: When I look at dramas of immigration, one of the things that I find unsatisfying is that they always focus on an internal dream, a dream that someone has of going to America and making his or her life better. And, instead, what I wanted Sleep Dealer to start with was this idea that immigrants from Latin America, in the places where they're born, are usually living somehow in the shadow of U.S. intervention, that immigrants come here because we - the United States - are already there. In my film I wanted to have a presence of U.S. power in my character's village. And so I put in a dam. The dam controls the local water supply, and it makes traditional subsistence life much more difficult. In reality, in Latin America, it's been banana plantations controlled by paramilitaries. It's been gold mines and copper mines and silver mines. It's been oil fields. It's any number of situations that have made it hard for the people there to survive. I chose water because it also has a symbolic and spiritual dimension to it. When my characters have their first kiss, they are by a little river. When they make love, they go down by the ocean. It would have been a lot harder to do that with petroleum. M.E.: But, of course, struggles over the control of water are not purely metaphorical. A.R.: When you talk to people about this, the idea that an evil corporation would go in and take the water from the people sounds so bombastic, so bizarre, that it feels like science fiction. And yet it's absolutely happening today. A lot of people are familiar with the story of Cochabamba, Bolivia, where an American company, Bechtel, privatized the water, and there literally was a water war. All of this stuff can sound like a bad Kevin Costner movie - the idea of a water war - and yet it's one of those realities that, if you were to graph it, is only going to trend upwards in terms of its intensity in the future. M.E.: The characters in the film are moved to take action about water privatization. Yet this takes the form of a highly individualized type of action - they don't join a social movement. I wondered about the absence of more collective resistance in the movie. A.R.: Well, I think you've hit on the Achilles' heel of political narrative film. Narrative film is driven by psychology and by identifying with a character. And I think that's why there are so few truly transcendent political films. In narrative cinema we're used to identifying with one person, and so even if the story is anti-imperial or anti-racist or anti-misogynist, it's usually one character's journey in overcoming those things. In Sleep Dealer there are three characters that represent three vast segments of our society. Those characters are in conflict at first, and then they come together. And their story is meant to have larger resonance than just the three individuals. But I think that devising a narrative where political hope and political power doesn't belong to one actor, but is somehow made collective, that is very, very challenging. I look at The Battle of Algiers as an incredible model, where there is a single character -- Ali la Pointe -- who we meet, but then his subjectivity sort of bleeds away from him and is given to a social movement by the end of the film. That film is a masterpiece; I am but a learner. When we were writing Sleep Dealer we were trying to think about what the future of what a radically networked social movement would look like, but we couldn't get there. Instead, I think the contribution of Sleep Dealer is in being a parable, a myth, that thinks through some of the impulses of globalization. M.E.: How did you first come to this type of work? A.R.: I grew up in upstate New York, and when I was 15 years old I met Pete Seeger. Without knowing who he was, I ended up doing volunteer work for one of his organizations. After meeting him I learned about his life using music and song as a part of social movements. When I went to college, that's what I went to study--music and social movements. M.E.: So you had taken up the claw-hammer banjo? A.R.: I did learn how to play the five-string banjo, actually! I can still do it. But at a certain moment I decided that the banjo wasn't the future of social movements. And I decided that through film and video you could express much more complicated and subtle arguments about the world than you can through song. M.E.: I think you're pissing off all of the political songwriters out there. A.R.: With song I think you have an access to the spirit, access to the heart. But with film we have two hours with people trapped in a dark room. You can refer back to something that happened 60 minutes earlier in the film, and you can play with what your viewers remember, and you can build really intimate relationships with characters. You can lay out both an emotional journey and an intellectual argument. I don't think there's anybody who will say that you can do all of that in a song. M.E.: Are you concerned with being pigeonholed as a political filmmaker or having the movie labeled as a "political" film? A.R.: I'd be happy to be pigeonholed as a political filmmaker. For me, making a film is so difficult and so challenging that I only want to make films that are relevant to the world we live in. M.E.: Do you see a trend toward politics, or maybe away from politics, in science fiction filmmaking today? A.R.: Science fiction has always had a radical history, all the way from Fritz Lang's Metropolis to Terry Gilliam's Brazil, which is a comedic portrait of fascism, up to Gattaca, which looks at the way that DNA profiling could be used by the government, to Children of Men, to Michael Winterbottom's Code 46. Science fiction has always been a space for radical critique on one hand, and, on the other, for selling Happy Meals. I do think that science fiction today is at risk of being completely co-opted by superhero movies, big franchises, and xenophobic fantasies about space aliens. It has that face as well. But I think the long history, going back almost a hundred years, is of science fiction as a place for forward-thinking, radical thought. M.E.: Perhaps unique among these movies you've mentioned, Sleep Dealer is a bi-lingual film, with the vast majority of the dialogue in Spanish. How did you think about language in the film? A.R.: We need to know in our guts that we are going into a future that will be multi-cultural. I think we are seeing in the news right now that America might not be the only world power in the future, that English might not be the international language of choice. So, for me, doing a science fiction set in the South and doing it in a language that was not English was fundamental. I'd love to do a science fiction in Nahuatl, or in Tagalog, or in Pashto. The language is just part of a gesture that says, the future belongs to all of us. I think the situation we're in is very striking. It is as if you met somebody and you asked them, "What do you want to have in your future?" And they said, "I don't know. I've never thought about it." In the cinema, that's what we have for the entire global South. We don't have any cinema that reflects on the future of the so-called Third World. There's zero. Why is it that we've seen comedies from the South, we've seen romances from the South, we've seen action movies from the South? We've seen everything but reflections on the future. To me, the first step to getting to the future that you want to live in is to imagine it. [Mark Engler, a writer based in New York City, is a senior analyst with Foreign Policy In Focus and the author of How to Rule the World: The Coming Battle Over the Global Economy (Nation Books, 2008). He can be reached via the Web site http://www.DemocracyUprising.com ] From yasir.media at gmail.com Wed May 20 14:10:16 2009 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?windows-1256?B?eWFzaXIgfu3HINPR?=) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 13:40:16 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] PK: The Emergence of a People Sensitive Judiciary - by Faisal Siddiqi Message-ID: <5af37bb0905200140i431e203fu90208f1d256b5515@mail.gmail.com> [fwd] __________________________________________ The Emergence of a People Sensitive Judiciary ______________________________________ by Faisal Siddiqi** * * “Prime Minister Yusuf Raza Gilani, Chairman Senate Farooq H Naek, Speaker National Assembly Dr Feminda Mirza, federal ministers, Supreme Court judges, services’ chiefs, chairman joint chiefs of staff, parliamentarians and senior government officials attended the dinner. *However, none of the restored judges, including the Chief Justice Iftikhar Chaudhry, attended the dinner despite invitation”*. *[The News dated: 21-3-2009]* * *“Justice Iftikhar pays 12-hour visit to central prison…… He took notice of the substandard food being provided by the canteen and kitchen management and ordered to cancel the contract of food stuff suppliers”. *[The News dated: 11-5-2009]* The Lawyers Movement and the judicial revolt which began on March 9th, 2007, is a phenomena which has elicited extreme responses. One school of thought, I would call the ‘romantics’, saw the lawyers movement as a social revolutionary movement having the revolutionary potential to restructure state and society in Pakistan. Another school of thought, I would call the ‘jiyala politico’s’, saw the lawyers movement [especially the fifth phase of the movement which began in August, 2008] as a reactionary movement having the potential of judicial despoticism which would be used by the rightwing and the anti-democratic forces to sabotage the process of liberal democracy in Pakistan. Without going into a detailed discussion as to why the romantics and the jiyala politico’s are wrong, I would only say this: the public rhetoric of the lawyers movement should not have been confused with the specific pragmatic goals of the movement. The goals were simple: restart the democratic process, get the army out of the formal political process, restore the deposed judges, reverse the actions of November 3rd, 2007, and dethrone the PCO judiciary. Right now, the score count is: ‘Three and half achieved and one and a half to go’. Sadly, for the romantics, there was no social restructuring agenda within the lawyers movement and to the great disappointment of the conspiratorial jiyala politico’s, there was no mullah or military agenda controlling the strings of the lawyers movement. The lawyers movement was neither social revolutionary nor a mullah-military conspiracy but was rather a reform movement for the furtherance and deepening of constitutionalism and the institutional, sociological and psychological restructuring of the judicial system in Pakistan. Yes, as far as constitutionalism and the reform of the judicial system is concerned, it was revolutionary but the self-obsession of lawyers with constitutionalism and the obsessive focus on law by ‘civil society’ should not have us forget the limits of constitutionalism to social, economic and political change. Roti, Kapra aur Makkan will be delivered by the political process and not by the legal process. What are the consequences of the lawyers movement and judicial revolt on the future of the judicial system and constitutionalism in Pakistan?. If the judicial and constitutional agenda of the lawyers movement was individual focused and dependent on the restored judges then this agenda will die it’s constitutional death when all these restored judges retire in the next decade. The lawyers movement and the judicial revolt was indeed individual focused only in it’s strategy and not in it’s consequences. A fundamental rupture, giving rise to a structural shift, has indeed occurred within the judicial institution as a result of the lawyers movement and the judicial revolt, the consequences of which will outlive the restoration and the retirement of the restored judges. Let us now examine this structural shift. The source of judicial power in Pakistan is the constitution and the law. In other words, the judicial institution is created and sustained by the constitution and the law. This source of law has given rise to two distinct kinds of judicial power. Firstly, the structural power of judicial supremacy and monopoly in areas of constitutional and legal interpretation. In simple terms, all matters of constitutional and legal interpretation [e.g. what are the powers of the president, prime minister and chief of army staff or what are the rights of the citizens vis-à-vis the government or vis-à-vis other private citizens] are finally and conclusively interpreted by the judiciary and the interpretation of the judiciary in constitutional and legal matters is binding on all concerned i.e. civilian and military ruling elites, the government and citizens. Therefore, if it is the constitution and the law which determines the powers, responsibilities and rights of the executive, the legislature and the citizens and if it is the judiciary which determines what the constitution and law means then it is the judiciary which determines the powers, responsibilities and rights of the executive, the legislature and the citizens. Or as Bishop Benjamin Hoadly rightly said: “Whoever hath an absolute authority to interpret any written or spoken laws, it is he who is truly the lawgiver, to all intents and purposes, and not that person who first wrote or spoke them”. Secondly, the institutional power of the judiciary to resolve actual disputes involving various governmental, political and private actors. In this world, the institutional framework of dispute resolution is the judicial institution, whether the dispute is between the prime minister and the chief of army staff or between the government and a common citizen. With such structural and institutional power, why is the judiciary been so weak and so executive oriented and dominated? The answer is simple: these constitutional powers of the judiciary, in a weak and transitional constitutional system like Pakistan, are in reality powers only on paper. The political executive has the coercive power of the police and bureaucratic establishment, the army has the coercive power of it’s soldiers and the military bureaucratic establishment but in essence, the judiciary only has the power to pass orders. It has no coercive institutional power to implement it’s orders or restrain the political and military elite from dismissing independent minded judges. In short, it is structurally dependent on the executive for the implementation of it’s administrative and judicial orders or even for safeguarding itself. A judicial institution independent on paper/constitution but dependent in reality on the executive is the problem to which the lawyers movement and the judicial revolt seeks to provide a tentative [not conclusive] answer. The answer was found in developing the mobilization power of the judicial institution to support its structural and institutional power. The July 20th, 2007, judgment directing the restoration of the Honourable Chief Justice was implemented immediately and the November 3rd, 2007, order restraining the removal of any judge was finally fully implemented on March 16th, 2009, by restoring the Honourable deposed judges because of the mobilization power behind the lawyers movement and the judicial revolt. In short, not only were orders of the judiciary implemented but independent judges were restored because of Awami takat. The Awam by backing the judiciary has made the judiciary less dependent and less fearful of the political and military executive. The Awam had finally entered into the chambers of the superior judiciary and laid the ground work for the emergence of a people sensitive judiciary. The superior judiciary has been, at worst, executive dominated, and, at best, executive oriented in it’s mindset. The distinctive aspects of this emerging people sensitive judiciary are two fold. Firstly, in order to retain the mobilization power of the Awam, the judiciary will strive for public legitimacy for it’s orders, actions and judicial reforms. In other words, the superior judiciary will now be listening equally, and be equally sensitive, to both the voices of the executive and the Awam. Awami legitimacy is now the new power game in town and Awami opinion is the defacto power source of this people sensitive judiciary. Secondly, this defacto power source of Awami legitimacy and it’s consequent, mobilization power, has qualitatively deepened the independence of the superior judiciary. It is not as if the judiciary has only now become independent during the last two years but rather it has found a tentative answer in the shape of Awami legitimacy to counter the dejure and defacto power of a monopolizing executive. A new power bloc has emerged on the national scene and it goes by the name of a ‘people dependent and people sensitive judiciary’. The emerging relationship between the judiciary and Awam is a kind of democratization of the superior judiciary. Awami legitimacy will become one of the jurisprudential parameters to determine as to what issues will have judicial priority as well as to determine the validity of judicial pronouncements. But who determines these issues of Awami legitimacy as the judiciary or the Awam have no direct relationship with each other? There are no elections of the superior judiciary? Who are ambassadors of the Awam before the judiciary? This new power relationship between the Awam and the judiciary has also given rise to a new power elite which is composed of lawyers, litigants [i.e. people who have pending cases before the judiciary], media and mobilized individuals and groups of civil society. These are the new ambassadors or priesthood which will create, sustain and deconstruct the narrative of public legitimacy. Like any power elite, this ambassadorial class of lawyers, litigants, media and mobilized individuals and groups have their own vested interests which may or may not conform with what the Awam wants. But until the constitution is amended and the superior judges are elected by the Awam, we are stuck with this ambassadorial class who will influence judicial priorities and the judicial process by the process of reading and [un-intentional and intentional] misreading of Awami expectations. What are the consequences of the emergence of this new judicial power bloc which also has the Awam as the source of its defacto power?. Four consequences seem to be on the horizon. Firstly, more independence for the superior judiciary implies more conflict with the executive and the legislature till such time that a new working relationship emerges between the political executive, legislature and judiciary. If the democratic process survives and continues, this new working relationship will emerge but historical time is required for the resolution of these conflicts as there are no short cuts to history. We all have to bear, and more importantly, survive these conflicts. Secondly, regardless of the short term conflicts between the political executive, legislature and judiciary, the long term structural contradiction and conflict will be between the dejure superior judiciary and the defacto military bureaucratic ruling elite. This is the historical contribution of the lawyers movement i.e. furtherance of constitutionalism means a continuing decrease in the defacto power of the military bureaucratic ruling elite. But this trend is critically dependent on the continuation of the democratic process because there can be no independent judiciary without constitutionalism and there can be no constitutionalism without democracy. Thirdly, socially constructed ‘public issues’ will have to be constantly taken up by the superior judiciary in order to sustain and develop public legitimacy. In this process, the superior judiciary will have to respond to unrealistic non- legal expectations [e.g. decrease inflation etc.] and do strategically difficult constitutional rectifications [e.g. hold accountable the perpetrators of November 3rd, 2007, etc.]. There is a mine field of unrealistic non-legal expectations and strategically difficult constitutional rectifications about which no law book provides answers. Fourthly, there will be series of judicial reforms especially in the area of the criminal justice system. People, especially lawyers in general, might disagree with the substance of these reforms [especially if it puts a check on their professional disease of seeking adjournments] but the era of judicial reforms has arrived and it will be like a bullet train. This superior judiciary will, and has to, try to save the crumbling judicial system because our Taliban Fundo brothers are about to gate crash our judicial system with their own system of violent justice. But regardless of what the future holds for the judicial system, the lawyers movement and the judicial revolt has atleast put the judicial system on the right track. This is symbolized by the fact that the judicial institution is paying more attention to the sub-standard food being fed to the wretched of the earth languishing in the jails of Pakistan and is declining dinner invitations from the executive. ____________ From yasir.media at gmail.com Wed May 20 14:11:42 2009 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?windows-1256?B?eWFzaXIgfu3HINPR?=) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 13:41:42 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] PK: NJC scuttles move to restore district magistracy Message-ID: <5af37bb0905200141s7250bcb5u4f9b29c21536466c@mail.gmail.com> fwd This is a very positive development. NJC scuttles move to restore district magistracy http://thenews.jang.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=22234 Wednesday, May 20, 2009 By Ansar Abbasi ISLAMABAD: The civil bureaucracy-prompted federal and provincial governments’ move to revert to the defunct system of district magistracy has been scuttled by the National Judicial Committee’s resolve to completely separate the judiciary from the executive. After the NJC approved the policy that no judge or judicial official would serve under the executive and even would not be involved in the election process, the efforts to revert to the old system of executive magistracy where executive officers enjoyed judicial powers might not succeed. Sources in the National Reconstruction Bureau confirm provinces are eager to get rid of the district government system introduced by Gen Musharraf, who had abolished the institution of district magistracy, with the exception of the federal capital, while introducing devolution plan that was seen as a silent revolution but failed because it further politicised the district bureaucracy and made the civil servants dance to the tunes of district Nazim. In view of the failings of the devolution plan, the bureaucracy that was jolted with the abolition of the office of district magistrate (also known as deputy commissioner) had convinced the political leadership in the provinces and also at the federal level to undo Musharraf’s devolution plan altogether. However, now it is feared that reversion to the old system and empowering the executive with the judicial powers would be struck down by the judiciary as it would not only be the violation of the Constitution but also in breach of the Supreme Court’s orders. The Constitution of Pakistan envisages separation of the executive from the judiciary in its Article 175 (3), which says: “Judiciary shall be separated from executive within fourteen years from the commencing day.” It may be highlighted that originally parliament envisaged a period of three years in the 1973 Constitution for the separation of judiciary from the executive. The bureaucracy then again manipulated and managed to circumvent the constitutional proviso of three years and it was substituted by five years through the Constitutional (5th Amendment) Act 1976 (Act LXII of 1976). Again there were long debates in 1976 and the lawyers’ community demanded separation of the judiciary from the executive. Once gain bureaucrats influenced the then dictator Ziaul Haq to amend the Constitution and the same provision was amended and replaced by 14 years by the president’s order No XIV of 1985. But it was not done even after the lapse of 14 years. Finally, it was again the Supreme Court of Pakistan which in 1998 had to intervene and give decision (Mehran Ali versus Federation of Pakistan, PLD 1998, SC 1445) that the executive be separated from the judiciary within six months. The executive bureaucracy implemented the decision half-heartedly but finally in 2001 the system of executive magistrates was abolished from the Criminal Procedure Code (CrPC). Before 1996, the deputy commissioner, an executive bureaucrat, could arrest the accused and give him capital punishment.A few months before the restoration, the National Reconstruction Bureau proposed a complete reversal of the Musharraf’s devolution plan and police reforms. While the Constitution envisages separation of the judiciary from the executive, the NRB suggested revival of the magistracy to the extent where the revenue officials would be vested with judicial powers and could award punishment up to three years under certain laws. Already all the provinces with the exception of Sindh have restored the office of commissioner and the federal and provincial governments are thinking of reverting to the system of district magistracy. --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ This is the People's Resistance Mailing List Send only RELEVANT discussion emails to PeoplesResistance at googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to PeoplesResistance+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com Or visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/PeoplesResistance -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~--- From yasir.media at gmail.com Wed May 20 14:14:08 2009 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?windows-1256?B?eWFzaXIgfu3HINPR?=) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 13:44:08 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] The humanitarian crisis of Swat's Internally Displaced People - Omar Foundation In-Reply-To: <5af37bb0905200114u44c3d7f7ld507ea07553987f3@mail.gmail.com> References: <5af37bb0905200114u44c3d7f7ld507ea07553987f3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5af37bb0905200144y5ae6a9efj62aa6d0a885ad128@mail.gmail.com> current estimates of people displaced is now at 2,500,000 ! From: Beena Sarwar Further to my earlier note on how to help those forced to become refugees in their own land - the largest internal displacement ever in Pakistan as the army finally takes action against the Taliban - see appeal below sent by a journalist friend in Karachi. Rashida Dohad, also an old friend, works with OAK Foundation - www.oakdf.org.pk 'Donate' link - http://www.oakdf.org.pk/links/donate.htm) Also see IDP Wiki page at http://sarelief.com From: sahar Date: Mon, May 18, 2009 at 10:56 PM Subject: The humanitarian crisis of the Internally Displaced People of Swat - please support Omar Foundation Dear Friends and Family, This evening I attended a briefing by Ali Asghar Khan, Chairman of the Omar Asghar Khan Development Foundation, at the Sindh Club. Ali had been invited by Karachi's concerned citizens – concerned about the humanitarian crisis unfolding rapidly in the wake of the war to crush the Taliban uprising in Swat – to talk about what was happening, and how Karachi-ites could help. Omar Foundation's solid credentials as an organization working to create space for the poor to engage in the democratic process, were established in the wake of the 2005 earthquake, when alongside their systematic relief efforts, they organized earthquake survivors to articulate their needs and express them in the policy arena, in a bid to make earthquake rehabilitation policy responsive to people's needs and priorities. While Omar Foundation's base is in Hazara, their experience of organizing the community – through village committees – to take responsibility of the task of distribution of relief supplies to people who most needed them – qualifies them to deliver similar services for the efficient distribution of relief supplies to the hundreds of thousands of families fleeing Swat to peaceful parts of NWFP. This is a humanitarian crisis of immense magnitude, as confirmed by the UN. And the most alarming aspect, as Ali pointed out earlier this evening, is that the media is portraying just the tip of the iceberg. "Eight-five (85) percent of the displaced population is not in the camps," revealed Ali. They are being hosted in people's homes, as many as 15 to a small room. Schools are overflowing with between 200 to 1500 people, without adequate – often non-existent – facilities for housing these families. Omar Foundation's `adopt-a-school' programme will seek to establish committees among the people living in schools to undertake the task of management, establishing services and distribution of relief goods. "All distribution will be through these committees, that will be made up of the people themselves," Ali said. Speaking on the occasion, Ishaq, who fled Swat some months ago after his name was announced on the Taliban radio channel with a death warrant, and will be working with Omar Foundation to organize the displaced populations, said: "Our people are worse-off than farm animals." He added that the 100-year-old infrastructure of Swat had been destroyed. "We were against the provincial government's deal with the Taliban," he said. But he and others, who have fled the area with their families in the wake of the army operation, are now afraid to speak out against the provincial government, the army, or the Taliban. Ali explained that there is a palpable sense of insecurity among the people, which he sensed when he recently toured the schools in Mardan where the IDPs are languishing. It is this insecurity that needs to be dealt with, after the immediate need of providing food, healthcare, sanitation, and education facilities to the IDPs has been addressed. "Our nation may not get this chance again. We have to be there for them [the IDPs]," said Ali. He added that model systems of justice, healthcare, education and other basic needs have to be created to ensure that the vacuum being currently created through the operation, will be filled and not allow the Taliban to re-group and re-surface. Ali said the common refrain is, "The Taliban are like water." You flush them from one area, and they will simply flow to another. It is this feeling of insecurity that needs to be addressed if peace and the IDPs are to return to Swat. For now, the need of the hour is to provide immediate relief for the disease and despair that is spreading rapidly. People need nutritious food, water for drinking and washing, toilets, bedding, utensils, medicines and medical services, clothing, sanitary goods, education, and sanitation. Omar Foundation has taken on the responsibility of organizing these facilities and services for three schools in one of the poorest Union Councils in Mardan (where people who are hosting these families are so poor, that they can barely afford the hospitality now, let alone on a long term basis). "Some schools need toilets, others need kitchens, a sewage system, fans," explained Ali. Please support the Omar Foundation's efforts to provide immediate relief and more sustained basic services to the people of Swat who need our support. They have sacrificed their homes so that the rest of Pakistan may live without fear of the Taliban. Donations can be sent to: Omar Asghar Khan Development Foundation Current Account # 0030445261000455 MCB Bank (1028) Super Market, Islamabad Pakistan SWIFT Code MUCBPKKAMCC Tax exemption # 6043/RTO/ATD/2008-09 dated 12 May 2009 Please email details including name, address and amount for acknowledgment to info at oakdf,org.pk Tel +92 512611092 – 4 Mob +92 300 8565279 PLEASE CIRCULATE THIS EMAIL WIDELY. THIS ISN'T A MATTER OF DAYS OR WEEKS. IT COULD TAKE MONTHS, EVEN YEARS. DONATE GENEROUSLY AND CONSISTENTLY. From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed May 20 16:05:44 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 03:35:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] "Cong has Raj, superstars to thank for extra seats" Message-ID: <295365.64741.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> In the Multi-Party election system operating in India, the first-past-the-post system used to declare a candidate as 'elected' often becomes a mockery of the essential principles associated with "Democracy".     We get a plethora of candidates who have not received majority support in their consituency getting 'elected' as representatives of their constituency. The cumulative effect is that a Political Party or Alliance who are recognised as a legitimate "Democratically Elected Government" in fact have had a minority of voter-support. Majority of voters have not considered them as worthy of placing their faith in them.   This is not Democracy. It is a convoluted and faulty interpretation of  and acceptance of Democracy.    Because of the understandbly obsessive focus on 'seats', the Post-election results get commented upon with such easily used terms as "Retention"; "Sweep"; "Decimation".   While "we the people", the ordinary citizens cannot be faulted for making such judgements, shockingly the Media too participates with such adjectival-shallowness.    It is only the comparisons of the vote-shares that can tell the real story of how well a candidate has fared in a constituency or tell us about the 'real' support base of a Political Party in a constituency or in a State or in the Country. It is only the changes in the vote-shares that can testify to whether there has been a "Retention"; or a"Sweep"; or a "Decimation".   The reproduced piece from DNA is a good example of how the results of an election in India need to be analysed.   Kshmendra     Tuesday, May 19, 2009 2:22 IST "Cong has Raj, superstars to thank for extra seats" Arati R Jerath / DNA   The Congress-led UPA has three men to thank for its seat surge in the 2009 Lok Sabha polls: Raj Thackeray, Chiranjeevi, and Vijayakanth. They helped the victorious alliance win nearly 50 more seats in Maharashtra, Andhra Pradesh, and Tamil Nadu than anyone would have expected, as a result of which the UPA ended up with 262 seats, against the 222 it won in 2004.   The big story is in Andhra Pradesh, where matinee idol Chiranjeevi single-handedly took the Congress from defeat to victory and shattered Telugu Desam Party chief N Chandrababu Naidu’s dreams. An analysis of the results reveals that the Chiranjeevi factor decimated the TDP in 26 constituencies. The Congress netted 33 seats, four more than in 2004.   The Andhra Pradesh results are an irony of these elections. The Congress registered a drop of 3.84% in vote share but an increase of four seats, while the TDP’s vote share plummeted 14.92% and it won one more seat. If the vote share change of the two main parties is added, it is obvious where Chiranjeevi’s 17% vote share came from and which party he hit.   The other actor who rescued the UPA was Vijayakanth, who scripted history in a state known for pendulum swings.      For the first time in 23 years, the Tamil Nadu verdict was split, with the DMK-Congress combine picking up 26 seats and the AIADMK-led alliance having to settle for 13. Vijayakanth’s DMDK helped the Congress-DMK combine win in 14 constituencies, including P Chidambaram’s hotly contested Sivaganga. In seven others, Jayalalithaa’s AIADMK alliance was precariously poised till the very end. Ultimately, it won those seats, but by narrow margins. The final tally for the UPA was 26, 18 to the DMK and eight to the Congress, in a state where the ruling alliance feared a wipe-out.   The vote share figures tell a strange story in this state too. The DMK and the Congress registered an increase in vote shares but failed to sweep the state as in 2004, when their Democratic Progressive Alliance (which included the PMK and MDMK) won all 39 seats. The AIADMK’s vote share dropped by 2.79% but the party won nine seats, unlike the duck five years ago.   The third game-changer was Raj. His Maharashtra Navnirman Sena (MNS) did exactly what it was expected to do. It cut into Shiv Sena-BJP votes and helped the Congress-NCP alliance to victory in 10 constituencies. Considering that the MNS contested only 12 seats, its delivery for the Congress-NCP was almost 100%. The UPA registered a spectacular second successive sweep in Mumbai and won Pune and Thane thanks to Raj.   The vote share picture is interesting here too. The Congress party’s vote share fell 4.11% in Maharashtra but its seat tally rose by four, to 13. In contrast, the NCP’s vote share is up by a slender 0.97% but its seat tally came down by one, to eight.   http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1257021   From c.anupam at gmail.com Wed May 20 16:13:13 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 16:13:13 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] plight of the muslim women and appeasement In-Reply-To: References: <746179.89525.qm@web39102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <341380d00905200343u6dc468fboa08cbcffb49953cd@mail.gmail.com> Dear Mr Malik, Clarifications first: The funds for the education and employment for the backward minorities would be made available through GOI. Maulana Azad Trust’s corpus has been increased to Rs 500 crores. ( http://www.indianexpress.com/news/education-jobs-plan-panel-focus-for-muslim-uplift/19044/0 ) To reason for reservation in any form, I would say that it is a policy of involving more and more people in decision-making process so that a composite form of governance can be created. If reservations mean benefits it also means additional responsibility. Prosperity, which in this case, is a derivative of the function of reservation, actually has an added baggage of roles, especially in India. These roles are to be fulfilled by those who avail what we call reservation as these roles traditionally were performed by just one set of people who are endowed with economic power with and therefore they were also expected to have a say in the functioning of the government and taking large scale policy decision. I might be contradicting myself, but the reservations are not just about economic prosperity. It is a means of social empowerment too. Infact social empowerment is the basis for the reservations in India. While economic prosperity is a result of individual strengths, social prosperity and recognition is a form of collective strength. It is not the case that social prosperity could be gained only through economic gains, but vice versa – as in you need an atmosphere without any discrimination than only you can work better. In case of Muslims, more than the economic disparity between the rich and the poor, it is social relevance of the community that needs to be addressed from within the community. Although reforms in Muslims have to intrinsic and inclusive, it cannot be seen in the light of the reform movements in other religions. Therefore, there is such an impetus on resolving the issues of education and employment especially in case of the Muslim girls. Like you have pointed out that extra Rs 300 given to the Muslim girls, I take this opportunity to point towards 14 per cent reservation for Brahmins and other upper castes ( http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl2514/stories/20080718251403300.htm) that have been clearly called economically backward upper castes, even though the most backward people would be tribals in Banswada district. Thanks anupam On 5/20/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > > Dear Malik jee > > If you wish to say that benefits like reservation must be based on economic > criteria, to quite a substantial extent (leaving aside SC and ST), I would > agree, as it is not going to help if only the affluent among the upper > castes, the backward castes or the Muslims or other minorities are getting > admissions and posts based on reservations. It's the poor and the > downtrodden among these communities which require reservation. > > However, when we do provide such reservation, then we have to ensure that > these people have the capacity to get absorbed through such reservations, > otherwise it's going to be of no use. For example, if the poor can't avail > of education even upto 10th std, then what is the use of providing them > reservation in IIT's and IIM's ? Therefore, it's time we debate upon the > idea of reservation to bring about benefits to different communities. The > same argument also extends for SC's and ST's. > > At the same time, one must not forget that one of the benefits of > introducing reservation was to increase national unity, and whether one > likes it or not, this is something which can't be debated. If there would > have been no reservation for SC's and ST's too, these would also have felt > useless and would have joined themselves to causes which indulge in violence > (at least a part have done so through Naxalism), and I feel the Naxalite > problem may have been greater, along with violence due to caste > discrimination and casteism. > > I have no problems with reservation as a move, it's just that I accept your > point that reservation for any caste or religion or community must be > debated, and the previous effects of reservation must be studied while > undertaking any new reservations to ensure that these actually turn > effective. And if that means reservation for poor across all castes and > communities has to be provided, so be it. > > Regards > > Rakesh > From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed May 20 16:14:00 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 03:44:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] "Modi loses vote share in Gujarat" (the real story) Message-ID: <808646.58189.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> The reproduced piece from TOI gives some elements of the 'real story' of how Political Parties have fared in the 2000 Elections.   "Vote-Share" is the 'real story'. "Seat-Share" is an aberrational misrepresentation.   Kshmendra   "Modi loses vote share in Gujarat" 18 May 2009, 0323 hrs IST, TNN   With vote share figures coming in on Sunday, there are several dramatic stories to tell. One of them may not appear as dramatic but has high political significance.   In Gujarat, the BJP's vote share has declined since 2004 by 0.9%, while the Congress too has lost 0.5%, explaining why the results were pretty much the same.   But in the status quo lies a major loss of face for Narendra Modi. Unlike in 2004, this time Modi assumed the role of one of the lead campaigners for BJP, was touted as a dynamo of development and projected as the party's prime ministerial aspirant for the next Lok Sabha polls. Considering his top billing, the fact that under him the party actually lost vote share in his state shows up the limits of his appeal.   Overall, the tally of seats chalked up by the major players in India's political theatre tells only part of the story of the huge changes that have taken place over the last five years. It does not reveal, for instance, that the Congress has gained over 2% in vote share to reach 28.6%, while the BJP has dropped almost 3.5% to reach 18.8%. In other words, the gap between the big two, which was wafer thin till 1999 has now reached almost 10%.   A closer look at the vote shares in some major states reveals even more startling trends. In Uttar Pradesh, for example, the Congress has hiked its vote share from a mere 12% last time to 18.3% now. In the process, it has overtaken the BJP in the state, which has slid from 22.2% to 17.5%. Again, while the SP has retained its numero uno status in terms of seats, it has actually lost 3.4% in vote share, while the BSP has gained 2.7%, with the result that it now has 27.4% to the SP's 23.3% - a sizeable lead in a state as fragmented as UP.   In Andhra Pradesh, YSR has Chiranjeevi to thank for the Congress' unexpectedly strong showing. For, the Congress has bettered its 2004 performance in Lok Sabha seats despite its vote share going down from 41.6% last time to 39% in these elections. With Chiranjeevi's newly formed Praja Rajyam picking up an astounding 15.7% of the votes, however, the TDP suffered a sharp drop in its vote share from 33.1% to 24.9%, allowing YSR a comfortable ride back to power.   In West Bengal, it wasn't really the arithmetic of a united opposition that did in the Left. The CPM alone lost 5.5% in vote share dropping from 38.6% to 33.1% and its allies in the Left also shed two per cent, so that the front's combined vote share came down from 50.8% last time to 43.3% this time. Despite the Congress also losing a wee bit - thanks largely to the fact that it contested fewer seats, the Trinamool's increase of 10.2% in vote share was more than enough to do the damage.   In Bihar, the JD(U) has gained only modestly with its share rising from 22.4% to 24%, and the BJP has actually dropped slightly, but the RJD's vote share has plummeted by over 11% - from 30.7% last time to just 19.3% now - and Paswan's LJP has lost another 1.6% in vote share. The Congress, despite contesting on its own, has raised its share from 4.5% to 10.3%, but that huge jump didn't yield seats because of the low base on which it came.   In Rajasthan, too, there has been a massive swing of votes, the BJP losing 12.4% of the vote share to come down to 36.6% and the Congress gaining 5.8% to reach 47.2%. The two things combined explain why the situation has got almost exactly reversed in the state from five years ago. In Maharashtra, as in Andhra, the UPA can thank a newly emerged party for its good showing.   Like the Praja Rajyam in AP, Raj Thackeray's MNS in Maharashtra did enough damage to the opposition, particularly the Shiv Sena, to ensure that the UPA was left sitting pretty. The MNS' vote share of a tad over 4% in the state may not seem like much, but considering this was concentrated in eight seats in the Mumbai region, apart from two in Nashik and Pune, the impact was much greater than the number would suggest.   http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Modi-loses-vote-share-in-Gujarat/articleshow/4544583.cms     var zz=0;var sldsh=0; var bellyaddiv = ' '; var stindex=100; var stp=150; var taglen=0; var tmp; var tagcheck = new Array("div","span","br","font","a"); var storycontent = document.getElementById("storydiv").innerHTML; var firstpara = storycontent.substring(0,storycontent.toLowerCase().indexOf(" ")).toLowerCase(); function findptt(cnt){ zz++; if(zz == 10)return; var xxx=-1,yyy=-1; var ccnt = cnt; for(ii=0; ii < tagcheck.length; ii++){ xxx = ccnt.indexOf(" From jeebesh at sarai.net Wed May 20 16:46:16 2009 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 16:46:16 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: YJA - Letter for Dr E Sreedharan - Kindly forward References: <659937df0905200413y5b3b8e25i6440b738248291eb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <204C51C6-8416-420C-8FAC-AF381F594E0C@sarai.net> Begin forwarded message: > From: Yamuna Jiye Abhiyaan > Date: 20 May 2009 4:43:15 PM GMT+05:30 > To: anuj at delhimetrorail.com > Subject: YJA - Letter for Dr E Sreedharan - Kindly forward > > To, > > Dr E Sreedharan, > MD > DMRC > New Delhi > > Dear Sir, > > Greetings from Yamuna Jiye Abhiyaan, which is a civil society > consortium of various NGOs and a large number of individuals who > have come together to work towards the revival of river Yamuna, > often termed as the life line river of Delhi, Vrindavan, Mathura and > Agra etc. > > Sir, this is in continuation of our recent letters to you and to > seek your attention with respect to your views carried regarding the > development of river Yamuna in Delhi, in today’s (20 May 2009) issue > of the Times of India. > > At the outset we are unable to understand the motivation of your > diatribe against a few so called environmentalists as expressed in > the said article. But if it is to try and justify post facto the > blatant, unethical, dangerous, risky and illegal encroachment onto > the river bed and flood plain that the DMRC has indulged in first at > Shastri Park and now in Yamuna Bank then we beg to find little merit > in your views. > > With the above as the context, allow us to differ with your basic > premise on what ails the river in Delhi although we endorse one of > your assessment and prescriptions as regards what needs to be done > with the drains that bring the city’s sewage and other waste into > the river. > > Sir, you may agree with us in that any developmental planning, > should first and foremost take fully into account the local > conditions of climate and the like. On this very count your > comparison of river Thames (London), Seine (Paris), Danube > (Budapest), Moskva (Moscow), Hudson (New York) and Han (Seoul) with > river Yamuna in Delhi is entirely misplaced. Kindly peruse the > enclosed chart of rainfall patterns averaged over 30 years (Source: > IMO) in the cities of Oxford (Thames), Vienna (Danube), Seine > (Paris) and Yamuna (Delhi) so as to understand as to why we contest > your basic premise of “why not train the river in Delhi when the > rivers in all great cities (as listed by you) have been jacketed and > trained in the past?” > > River Yamuna is a 1400 km river with a well pronounced flood plain, > frequent meander and a history of major floods, the latest of which > was in the year 2008, when almost the entire available flood plain > in the city went under deep waters. We hope that you would not > contest our stand that any land use planning should always be > appropriate. So how can a flood plain whose basic purpose is to let > the flood waters spread, percolate down to become ground water and > to convey the remaining safely downstream be thought of as being fit > for a real estate development as proposed in your views. > > Sir, you may be aware that what you propose today has already been > considered with even the CWPRS conducting a study as part of MPD > 2001, but it was a well considered decision of the government > consequent to state sponsored studies that rejected it as being > unviable. > > Sir, we are fully aware of your position and the authority that your > words carry and hence would be extremely happy to share with you the > information available with us that clearly establishes that what you > propose is not only fraught with danger but would compromise > irreversibly the critical role that the remaining flood plain in the > city plays in enriching the ground water annually during the monsoon > months and meets a significant amount of water supplies to this > parched city. Please remember that your own DMRC complex subsist on > ground water extracted from the very flood plain that your plan > threatens to alter irreversibly. We of course desist ourselves from > responding to your views on the Games Village, Metro complexes, > Akshardham and the like raised in the river bed as the same is > presently sub judice at the High Court and the Supreme Court. > > We are hopeful that you would be able to find some time for us from > your very busy schedule to enable us to present this and more in > person to your honour. > > Warm regards, > > Manoj Misra > Convenor > Yamuna Jiye Abhiyaan > > -- > www.yamunajiyeabhiyaan.blogspot.com From rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com Wed May 20 16:49:59 2009 From: rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com (Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 16:49:59 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] "Cong has Raj, superstars to thank for extra seats" In-Reply-To: <295365.64741.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <295365.64741.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7271ec560905200419g4fd5fb9ct8c274f923f6fe04a@mail.gmail.com> Well pointed out, it may be pertinent to recall the book author by Shri. Zakir Hussain, former President of India, in his book, Rule of minorities in Indian democracy. ( Though I do not remember the name of the book correctly, it is not about minority faith, but learned analysis of voting practices in democratic India.) In this book, the author analyses the facts of the elections in early phases of Indian democracy, while at the time voting was average about 53 percent, these votes scattered between one major party Indian national Congress and atleast ten other small national parties like Communist Party of India, Swathantra party, Republican Party of India, Bharathiya Janasangh, Forward Blok, etc, effectively, the then Congress even if it gets as little as 16 votes out of voted 53, was clear winner, thus the doctrine of opposition unity index came in practice in 1977 during the emergency days when all the opposition leaders including the left parties, CPI and CPM found themselves denied of fundamental rights. The nation today has a different set of rules that divide the voters, based on caste and faith, region and religion, but again, it is minority which gets elected with divided polity. Only saving grace is the awareness of the voter, who was illiyerate then, now atleast we have high school drop out literates, aspirations of the voter when remain untouched by the rule of laws, the naxalite movement, movements to demark new territories as new states have only contributed to divide the polity further. If only elected governments take steps to govern without ffear or favour, to uphold the rule of laws without discriminations bases on caste, faith and creed, region or religion, India can be united at all times, be it peace or war or a calamity affecting the nation. On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 4:05 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > In the Multi-Party election system operating in India, the > first-past-the-post system used to declare a candidate as 'elected' often > becomes a mockery of the essential principles associated with "Democracy". > > We get a plethora of candidates who have not received majority support in > their consituency getting 'elected' as representatives of their > constituency. The cumulative effect is that a Political Party or Alliance > who are recognised as a legitimate "Democratically Elected Government" in > fact have had a minority of voter-support. Majority of voters have not > considered them as worthy of placing their faith in them. > > This is not Democracy. It is a convoluted and faulty interpretation of and > acceptance of Democracy. > > Because of the understandbly obsessive focus on 'seats', the Post-election > results get commented upon with such easily used terms as "Retention"; > "Sweep"; "Decimation". > > While "we the people", the ordinary citizens cannot be faulted for making > such judgements, shockingly the Media too participates with such > adjectival-shallowness. > > It is only the comparisons of the vote-shares that can tell the real story > of how well a candidate has fared in a constituency or tell us about the > 'real' support base of a Political Party in a constituency or in a State or > in the Country. It is only the changes in the vote-shares that can testify > to whether there has been a "Retention"; or a"Sweep"; or a "Decimation". > > The reproduced piece from DNA is a good example of how the results of an > election in India need to be analysed. > > Kshmendra > > > Tuesday, May 19, 2009 2:22 IST > "Cong has Raj, superstars to thank for extra seats" > Arati R Jerath / DNA > > The Congress-led UPA has three men to thank for its seat surge in the 2009 > Lok Sabha polls: Raj Thackeray, Chiranjeevi, and Vijayakanth. They helped > the victorious alliance win nearly 50 more seats in Maharashtra, Andhra > Pradesh, and Tamil Nadu than anyone would have expected, as a result of > which the UPA ended up with 262 seats, against the 222 it won in 2004. > > The big story is in Andhra Pradesh, where matinee idol Chiranjeevi > single-handedly took the Congress from defeat to victory and shattered > Telugu Desam Party chief N Chandrababu Naidu’s dreams. An analysis of the > results reveals that the Chiranjeevi factor decimated the TDP in 26 > constituencies. The Congress netted 33 seats, four more than in 2004. > > The Andhra Pradesh results are an irony of these elections. The Congress > registered a drop of 3.84% in vote share but an increase of four seats, > while the TDP’s vote share plummeted 14.92% and it won one more seat. If the > vote share change of the two main parties is added, it is obvious where > Chiranjeevi’s 17% vote share came from and which party he hit. > > The other actor who rescued the UPA was Vijayakanth, who scripted history > in a state known for pendulum swings. > > For the first time in 23 years, the Tamil Nadu verdict was split, with the > DMK-Congress combine picking up 26 seats and the AIADMK-led alliance having > to settle for 13. > Vijayakanth’s DMDK helped the Congress-DMK combine win in 14 > constituencies, including P Chidambaram’s hotly contested Sivaganga. In > seven others, Jayalalithaa’s AIADMK alliance was precariously poised till > the very end. Ultimately, it won those seats, but by narrow margins. The > final tally for the UPA was 26, 18 to the DMK and eight to the Congress, in > a state where the ruling alliance feared a wipe-out. > > The vote share figures tell a strange story in this state too. The DMK and > the Congress registered an increase in vote shares but failed to sweep the > state as in 2004, when their Democratic Progressive Alliance (which included > the PMK and MDMK) won all 39 seats. The AIADMK’s vote share dropped by 2.79% > but the party won nine seats, unlike the duck five years ago. > > The third game-changer was Raj. His Maharashtra Navnirman Sena (MNS) did > exactly what it was expected to do. It cut into Shiv Sena-BJP votes and > helped the Congress-NCP alliance to victory in 10 constituencies. > Considering that the MNS contested only 12 seats, its delivery for the > Congress-NCP was almost 100%. The UPA registered a spectacular second > successive sweep in Mumbai and won Pune and Thane thanks to Raj. > > The vote share picture is interesting here too. The Congress party’s vote > share fell 4.11% in Maharashtra but its seat tally rose by four, to 13. In > contrast, the NCP’s vote share is up by a slender 0.97% but its seat tally > came down by one, to eight. > > http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1257021 > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- Rajen. From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Wed May 20 16:57:43 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 16:57:43 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] plight of the muslim women and appeasement In-Reply-To: <341380d00905200343u6dc468fboa08cbcffb49953cd@mail.gmail.com> References: <746179.89525.qm@web39102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <341380d00905200343u6dc468fboa08cbcffb49953cd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Anupam I repeat here again. It's certainly true that facts state that the reservation has been provided, and they would have been provided for causes such as social situation, economic problems and so on. My only point is that these should actually help the community in terms of the gains which are supposed to be attained, although I must state here that some of the gains can't be measured by nos. like social benefits of reservation (in terms of whether discrimination has ended or not, or acceptability in society has increased or not). Regards Rakesh From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed May 20 17:02:29 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 17:02:29 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Taliban Hypocracy = Pakistan Hypocracy Message-ID: <6b79f1a70905200432j4525eb58pda5e125e0262e830@mail.gmail.com> http://letusbuildpakistan.blogspot.com/2009/05/muslim-khans-is-pakistans-national.html Muslim Khan, the spokesman of Pakistani Taliban, has won unprecedented notoriety for justifying beheading, flogging, and digging up and hanging the dead. He has a personal stake in propagating the kind of education Muslims of the world must have. Or must not have. He has justified the bombing of schools on many pretexts, but one stands out: Muslims must not get “English” education. By which Muslim Khan means that any school which has anything to do with the English language must be demolished. The Taliban have so far demolished hundreds of schools in the name of cleansing education of the Western-infidel influence. Pakistan’s Islamo-fascist Urdu media has always given him a lot of coverage making him a national folk hero who has stood up to the United States and her Pakistani lackeys. At long last, someone found out that Muslim Khan’s own son is a graduate student at the University of Peshawar and the medium of his education is English. When the question about his son was tossed to him, the great Muslim Khan was philosophical: “My son is disobedient!” The filed closed. No more questions please. Judging by Muslim Khan’s own Islamist criteria, his prodigal son is a double whammy: getting English education and being a disobedient son. Can there be a greater sin than filial disobedience which implies filial ingratitude? Plus the infidel English education. And yet Muslim Khan will not slaughter his son nor let any of his fellow Taliban do it. But he will flog and behead anyone else’s boys and girls for countless petty acts like a girl’s leaving home without being chaperoned by an adult male. This is not just Taliban hypocrisy; this is typical Pakistani hypocrisy. I have studied, visited, and lived in a number of countries. I have always tried to understand how Pakistani expatriate communities live. I can report a lot of incidents, but I will narrate only of which I have had the very first hand experience. In a Muslim country there was a Pakistani who in the mid 1990s who terrorized not just the Pakistanis, but anyone he could get hold of. All in the name of Islam. Mullah F was his name, and he was a zealous member of the Tablighi Jamaat, and saw to it that he conveyed the message of Islam to as many non-Muslims and non-Wahabis as he could. One evening, as my wife and I were being treated to a diner by a Sri Lankan friend and his wife, Mullah F came over with the two religious police officers. Without greeting any one of us, Mullah F told my friend’s wife that she had been living in sin because she was a Muslim and her husband a Buddhist. The husband and wife were too scared and my wife and I were too dumbfounded to say anything. After Mullah F and the religious officers left, my friend who had taught mathematics in a Karachi school for a few years exhausted his repertoire of four-letters words for the unwelcome guests. Soon fearing the mighty hand of the possible Islamist inquisition, the couple left the country for good and settled in Auckland where they live a happy life with their three children. Mullah F had many rabbits up his. His favorite pastime, apart from proselytizing, was to embarrass and insult Pakistanis who had acquired permanent residence in Australia, Canada, and New Zealand. In Pakistani gatherings he would tell in a loud voice that those who had obtained permanent residence in “those infidel countries” would have their daughters turned into prostitutes and sons into pimps who would end up marrying the infidels. He would also say that in an infidel country like Australia or Canada, people lived haram lives. To his credit, Mullah F’s made his wife and three daughters live in complete purdah, and you could not even see his wife’s hands which had gloves on all the time. And life went on till my friend Mr. Shah came over one evening and asked me to accompany him. He wanted to see Mullah F. I protested. I had never even spoken to him and vice versa. Besides, I wanted to stay away from the filthy mouth of the man. But Mr. Shah had breaking news: Mullah F had not only obtained Australian permanent residence, he had just returned from Darwin in Australia after settling his family there. Now, Mr. Shah had been one of the victims of Mullah F at a Pakistani function. The report from some Pakistan families in Darwin was that Mullah F’s wife and daughters had got rid of purdah and were living more liberally than any other Pakistani family. Contrary to my fears, Mullah F was very kind and graceful as he opened the door. Before Mr. Shah could get even with Mullah F (he had predicted something ominous about Mr. Shah’s daughters in Toronto), this is what happened: “I am sure you have come to congratulate me over my permanent residence in Australia. It is Allah’s act. Allah must have wanted to use me and my family to something noble in Australia. Who can question when He gives you something. I only hope I succeed in the task that Allah will assign me and my family in Australia and I request you two brothers to pray for my success.” Mr. Shah could not say a word and left like a gambler who had lost all he had. There was another Allah-fearing Pakistani in another Pakistani community. He was mostly referred to as Sarkar Jee instead of his real name. One of the tasks he had taken upon himself was advising people that Muslims must marry Muslims. He had a theory of genetic transfer of sin: “If anyone in the history of your family has tasted pork, it will take seven generations to rid of the sin of eating pork!” Which means that seven generations would be infected only because someone in the past tasted pork. The eldest son of Sarkar Jee married a Chinese woman who was a Christian. Her father ran a non-halal restaurant where pork was served too. Just like Mullah F, Sarkar Jee had a well-thought-out answer: “Allah chose my son to convert a woman to Islam. What else could one have asked for? Who can fault my son?” No one upon the pain of death. Typically Pakistanis are hypocritical, intellectually dishonest, and morally bankrupt. I challenge anyone to visit Pakistanis living abroad. Day in and day out, they denounce their host countries—Australia, Britain, Canada, etc—for being immoral and anti-Islamic, but will never leave and settle down in Pakistan. They are in the forefront in demanding their rights, but are absent when it comes to fulfilling their civic duties. In Pakistan, an American drone attack will outrage the entire nation for killing a dozen people, but the beheading and burning alive of hundreds of Muslims and non-Muslims by the fundamentalists is condemned by only a handful of brave people. I can quote dozens of examples where little girls were raped in the mosques, but no one raised a voice against the rapes, and no one was ever punished for those rapes (All of the rapists were imams or pesh-imams of those mosques). Look at the hypocrisy of Pakistan’s Urdu journalists and politicians: every time innocent people are killed via suicide bombing the standard response is: “Muslims cannot do it.” Matter closed. The fact is that those who carry out these crimes are hundred per cent Muslim and have impeccable Islamic credentials: They pray five times a day, read the Koran regularly, and most of them are hafiz. Muslims believe that on the Day of Judgment one hafiz will lead a dozen of people to Paradise. Internationally, the Unite States is the wickedest country, but American education for one’s son is a dream come true and an American green card is Allah’s greatest boon. Jews are the enemies of humanity, but Jewish inventions and discoveries are fully exploited for our benefit. Our national hypocrisy is one reason that Pakistan will always remain a heart of darkness. Abbas Zaidi From nagraj.adve at gmail.com Wed May 20 17:10:47 2009 From: nagraj.adve at gmail.com (Nagraj Adve) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 17:10:47 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Climate change in Ladakh In-Reply-To: <4d89ab7a0905182315y325a1bcajfb26fd60eca946d1@mail.gmail.com> References: <000001c9d542$50ce6070$3601a8c0@slshetty> <564b2fca0905180203sa1c9dffp8b1ebebdb079b90b@mail.gmail.com> <4d89ab7a0905182315y325a1bcajfb26fd60eca946d1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <564b2fca0905200440m54e2426pf08aff13df9e03f3@mail.gmail.com> Ravleen, you're right. I noticed it too but since her main theme was the effects of changing precipitation in Ladakh, I forwarded it without comment. Her article was particularly sobering since these are regions with very little natural rainfall, hence less snow will seriously impact post-monsoon water supply access. One might then see a forced migration, a displacement that is no less than those by industrial projects or by SEZs and no less linked to capitalism. My initial chats with folks from here and there who are engaged in agriculture suggest that changing rainfall patterns have either been changing since 15 years or have been perceived by them since then, probably the latter (but these are two few or initial to say with conviction). One gets the feeling we are reacting too little too late. It's also a peculiarity here that massive economic or health or social crises can unfold with little reaction outside the areas or people affected. Naga On 19/05/2009, ravleen saluja wrote: > > Hi, > Just wanted to point out an error in this piece, which might have been a > typo, but does make a difference. Ms Shiva says: > > "The Gangotri glacier, the source of the Ganga is receding at 20-23 miles > per > year. Millam glacier is receding at 30m/yr, Dokrani is retreating at > 15-20m/yr." > > The total length of Gangotri is 30 kms so it possibly cannot be receding at > the rate of 20-23 miles per year. When I went to Gaumukh, researchers at the > field stations of various departments posted there told me that it is > anything between 5-15 metres per year. Back in Delhi, even this estimate has > been exaggerated but its certainly not 20-23 miles per year. I am not saying > at all that global warming is not taking place but such figurative error can > sensationalise the situation unneccarily. > > regards > > ravleen > > On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 2:33 PM, Nagraj Adve wrote: > >> A rather significant piece, by Vandana Shiva, on climate change impacts in >> Ladakh. >> Naga >> >> >> Climate Change at the Third Pole >> >> >> >> May 16, 2009 By *Vandana Shiva >> * >> Vandana Shiva's ZSpace Page / ZSpace >> >> >> I write from Ladakh, where we are studying the impact of climate change >> and >> evolving participatory adaptation and disaster preparedness strategies >> with >> local communities. >> >> The melting of snow in the Arctic and Antartic due to global warming and >> climate change is reported frequently. However, the melting of the >> Himalayan >> glaciers goes largely unreported, even though more people are impacted. >> >> Presently 10% of the earth's landmass is covered with snow, with 84.16% in >> the Antartic, 13.9% in Greenland, 0.77% in the Himalaya, 0.51% in North >> America, 0.37% in Africa, 0.15% in South America, 0.06% in Europe. Outside >> the polar region, Himalaya has the maximum concentration of glaciers. >> 9.04% >> of the Himalaya is covered with glaciers, with 30-40% additional area >> being >> covered with snow. >> >> The glaciers of the Himalaya are the Third Pole. They feed the giant >> rivers >> of Asia, and support half of humanity. >> >> In Ladakh, the northern most region of India, all life depends on snow. >> Ladakh is a high altitude desert with only 50mm of rainfall. Ladakh's >> water >> comes from the snow melt - both the snow that falls on the land and >> provides >> the moisture for farming and pastures, as well as the snow of the glaciers >> that gently melts and feeds the streams that are the lifeline of the tiny >> settlements. >> >> For centuries snow has supported human survival in Ladakh. >> >> Climate change is changing this. Less snow is falling, so there is less >> moisture for growing crops. In village after village, we are witnessing >> the >> end of farming where snow melt on the fields was the only source of >> moisture. >> >> Reduced snowfall also means less snow in glaciers, and less streamflow. >> The >> shorter period of snowfall prevents the snow from turning into hard ice >> crystals. Therefore more of the glacier is liable to melt when the summer >> comes. >> >> Climate change has also led to rain, rather than snow, falling even at >> higher altitudes. This also accelerates the melting of glaciers. >> >> Meantime, heavy rainfall which was unknown in the high altitude desert has >> become more frequent, causing flash floods, washing away homes and fields, >> trees and livestock. Climate refugees are already being created in the >> Himalaya in villages such as Rongjuk. As one of the displaced women said >> "when we see the black clouds, we feel afraid." >> >> The arrival of black clouds and disappearance of white snow in the cold >> desert is how climate change is entering the life of the Ladakhi >> communities. They did not cause the pollution, but they are its victims. >> This is the direct and cruel face of climate injustice - the polluters >> continue to pollute, they are insulated from the impact of their own >> actions. Others, thousands of miles away bear the brunt of greenhouse gas >> pollution. >> >> India has 5243 glaciers covering an area of 37579 km2 and containing >> 142.88 >> km2 of ice. >> >> The Gangotri glacier, the source of the Ganga is receding at 20-23 miles >> per >> year. Millam glacier is receding at 30m/yr, Dokrani is retreating at >> 15-20m/yr. The receding of glaciers has accelerated with global warming. >> The >> rate of retreat of the gangotri glacier has tripled in the last three >> years. >> Some of the most devastating effects of glacial meltdown occures when >> glacial lakes overflow and the phenomena of Glacial Lake Outburst Floods >> (GLOFs) take place. >> >> Climate change thus initially leads to widespread flooding, but over time, >> as the snow disappears there will be draught in the summer. In the Ganga, >> the loss of glacier meltdown would reduce July - September flows by two >> thirds, causing water shortages for 500 million people and 37 percent of >> India's irrigated land. >> >> Glacial runoff in the Himalayas is the largest source of fresh water for >> nothern India and provides more than half the water to the Ganga. Glacial >> runoff is also the source of the Indus, the Brahmaputra, the Mekong, the >> Irrawady and the Yellow and Yantze rivers. >> >> According to the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), >> "glaciers >> in the Himayalas are receding faster than in any other part of the world >> and >> if the present rate continues, the likelihood of them disappearing by the >> year 2035 and perhaps sooner is very high if the earth keep getting warmer >> at the current rate". According to the IPCC report the total area of >> glaciers in the Himalaya will shrink from 193051 square miles to 38,000 >> square miles by 2035. >> >> The lives of billions are at stake. That is why we have started a >> participatory process for Himalayan communities to engage in the >> discussion >> on climate change, including issues of climate justice, adaptation and >> disaster preparedness. >> >> In terms of numbers of people impacted, climate change at the Third Pole >> is >> the most far reaching. And no climate change policy or treaty will be >> complete without including the Himalayan communities. >> >> The Government of India has set up a National Climate Action Plan which >> has >> eight missions. One of the missions is for sustaining the Himalayan >> Ecosystem. However, the Himalayan communities are missing in the mission. >> As >> the Action Plan states "A mission for sustaining the Himalayan ecosystem >> will be launched to evolve management measures for sustaining and >> safeguarding the Himalayan glacier and mountain ecosystem. Himalayas, >> being >> the source of key perennial rives, the Mission would, inter-alia, seek to >> understand, whether and the extent to which, the Himalayan glaciers are in >> recession and how the problem could be addressed. This will require the >> joint effort of climatologists, glaciologists and other experts." >> >> People only get introduced to protect forests "community based management >> of >> these ecosystems will be promoted with incentives to community >> organizations >> and panchayats for protection and enhancement of forested lands". >> >> However climate change is about more than forests. It is about flash >> floods >> and draught, it is about planning for a future which is not like today. >> For >> this people need to be partners in monitoring and planning. No government >> machinery, no matter how sophisticated, can know every mountain, every >> glacier, every stream, and every field. People are experts on local >> ecosystems and the changes in their ecosystems due to a destabilized >> climate. It is this expertise which needs to be mobilized in order to >> evolve >> timely strategies for adaption. >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > -- > Ravleen Kaur > Senior Reporter > Down to Earth > Centre for Science and Environment > 41, Tughlakabad Institutional Area > New Delhi-110062 > From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Wed May 20 17:16:29 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 17:16:29 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] "Cong has Raj, superstars to thank for extra seats" In-Reply-To: <7271ec560905200419g4fd5fb9ct8c274f923f6fe04a@mail.gmail.com> References: <295365.64741.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <7271ec560905200419g4fd5fb9ct8c274f923f6fe04a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Kshamendra jee and Rajen jee A lot has been stated about the disadvantages of the 'first-past-the-post' system, and there have been criticisms of it across the political spectrum by different parties at different times, from the BJP to the Left to the others. But when it comes to implementing political reform or electoral reform, nobody really does something. The proof of the pudding would be in the eating, so it would be better that the civil society and the media exerts pressure on such issues (rather than the IPL and other useless stories they follow), so that we can get electoral reforms. For the information of all, being a student of IIT, I have had the previlige to hear two former CEC's, namely Mr. Seshan (who was controversial of course) and Mr. Krishnamurty (who was the CEC conducting 2004 general elections if I am not wrong). In addition I have also heard Mr. Gopalaswamy (the now ex-CEC who just retired after the 1st phase of general elections). >From what I heard from them, the EC has sent a list of reforms to be undertaken in elections, but except one, none of these were undertaken, nor was any decision made on when they are to be implemented. The only one which was actually implemented, was on the directive of the SC, stating that candidates would have to mention their personal wealth and criminal cases lodged against them (if any) during filing of the nominations. Our very own Parliament wanted this not to be done, and as a token measure stated that only elected candidates, after winning the elections, would be asked to do so, as if they were doing a great deed (all BJP, Congress, Left and other MP's if I am not wrong, were a party to this). This too was implemented using some basic right provided in the Constitution. Also, some of the reforms are now in discussion in the public domain as well. For example, these were: 1) The state govt. should resign before elections, and the elections should be held under the President's Rule. This I heard only from Mr. Krishnamurty. 2) The major one is that we should change our system slightly. Either we should have two elections, whereby the first is a run off to decide the top two candidates of a particular constituency, and the second one would be between the winner and the runners-up of the run-off election, so that any candidate has to get at least once, more than 50% of the votes to win an election. This way, they also stated that elections would move away from casteism and communalism. Also, this would ensure that regional parties, even if growing, are based on progress based agendas and not on caste based ideologies with a view to only help people of their caste. 3) They also said that alternately, an idea of proportional representation must also be done if required. They believed that this would ensure that parties would concentrate on getting more votes rather than cutting on each other's votes. Well, there are other reforms they also said they have sent in, and being official CEC then (for Mr. Gopalswamy only), he said then he would like to get the official permission for the reforms to be implemented, and then would like to make it public (with an idea of showing as his achievement probably or something else). Yes, we need to debate our system. The vote percentages are not in correlation with the seats. Something has to be done about this. Regards Rakesh From chintangirishmodi at gmail.com Wed May 20 17:22:07 2009 From: chintangirishmodi at gmail.com (Chintan) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 17:22:07 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Paul Hawken's Commencement Address to the Class of 2009 -- University of Portland, May 3rd, 2009 Message-ID: >From Nipun Mehta's post on http://www.dailygood.org/more.php?n=3697 Paul Hawken is a friend of CharityFocus, renowned entrepreneur, visionary environmental activist, founder of Wiser Earth and author of many books -- most recently Blessed Unrest. He was presented with an honorary doctorate of humane letters by University of Portland, when he delivered this superb commencement address. *Paul Hawken's Commencement Address to the Class of 2009 University of Portland, May 3rd, 2009 * When I was invited to give this speech, I was asked if I could give a simple short talk that was “direct, naked, taut, honest, passionate, lean, shivering, startling, and graceful.” Boy, no pressure there. But let’s begin with the startling part. Hey, Class of 2009: you are going to have to figure out what it means to be a human being on earth at a time when every living system is declining, and the rate of decline is accelerating. Kind of a mind-boggling situation – but not onepeer-reviewed paper published in the last thirty years can refute that statement. Basically, the earth needs a new operating system, you are the programmers, and we need it within a few decades. This planet came with a set of operating instructions, but we seem to have misplaced them. Important rules like don’t poison the water, soil, or air, and don’t let the earth get overcrowded, and don’t touch the thermostat have been broken. Buckminster Fuller said that spaceship earth was so ingeniously designed that no one has a clue that we are on one, flying through the universe at a million miles per hour, with no need for seatbelts, lots of room in coach, and really good food – but all that is changing. There is invisible writing on the back of the diploma you will receive, and in case you didn’t bring lemon juice to decode it, I can tell you what it says: YOU ARE BRILLIANT, AND THE EARTH IS HIRING. The earth couldn’t afford to send any recruiters or limos to your school. It sent you rain, sunsets, ripe cherries, night blooming jasmine, and that unbelievably cute person you are dating. Take the hint. And here’s the deal: Forget that this task of planet-saving is not possible in the time required. Don’t be put off by people who know what is not possible. Do what needs to be done, and check to see if it was impossible only after you are done. When asked if I am pessimistic or optimistic about the future, my answer is always the same: If you look at the science about what is happening on earth and aren’t pessimistic, you don’t understand data. But if you meet the people who are working to restore this earth and the lives of the poor, and you aren’t optimistic, you haven’t got a pulse. What I see everywhere in the world are ordinary people willing to confront despair, power, and incalculable odds in order to restore some semblance of grace, justice, and beauty to this world. The poet Adrienne Rich wrote, "So much has been destroyed I have cast my lot with those who, age after age, perversely, with no extraordinary power, reconstitute the world." There could be no better description. Humanity is coalescing. It is reconstituting the world, and the action is taking place in schoolrooms, farms, jungles, villages, campuses, companies, refuge camps, deserts, fisheries, and slums. You join a multitude of caring people. No one knows how many groups and organizations are working on the most salient issues of our day: climate change, poverty, deforestation, peace, water, hunger, conservation, human rights, and more. This is the largest movement the world has ever seen. Rather than control, it seeks connection. Rather than dominance, it strives to disperse concentrations of power. Like Mercy Corps, it works behind the scenes and gets the job done. Large as it is, no one knows the true size of this movement. It provides hope, support, and meaning to billions of people in the world. Its clout resides in idea, not in force. It is made up of teachers, children, peasants, businesspeople, rappers, organic farmers, nuns, artists, government workers, fisherfolk, engineers, students, incorrigible writers, weeping Muslims, concerned mothers, poets, doctors without borders, grieving Christians, street musicians, the President of the United States of America, and as the writer David James Duncan would say, the Creator, the One who loves us all in such a huge way. There is a rabbinical teaching that says if the world is ending and the Messiah arrives, first plant a tree, and then see if the story is true. Inspiration is not garnered from the litanies of what may befall us; it resides in humanity’s willingness to restore, redress, reform, rebuild, recover, reimagine, and reconsider. "One day you finally knew what you had to do, and began, though the voices around you kept shouting their bad advice," is Mary Oliver’s description of moving away from the profane toward a deep sense of connectedness to the living world. Millions of people are working on behalf of strangers, even if the evening news is usually about the death of strangers. This kindness of strangers has religious, even mythic origins, and very specific eighteenth-century roots. Abolitionists were the first people to create a national and global movement to defend the rights of those they did not know. Until that time, no group had filed a grievance except on behalf of itself. The founders of this movement were largely unknown – Granville Clark, Thomas Clarkson, Josiah Wedgwood – and their goal was ridiculous on the face of it: at that time three out of four people in the world were enslaved. Enslaving each other was what human beings had done for ages. And the abolitionist movement was greeted with incredulity. Conservative spokesmen ridiculed the abolitionists as liberals, progressives, do-gooders, meddlers, and activists. They were told they would ruin the economy and drive England into poverty. But for the first time in history a group of people organized themselves to help people they would never know, from whom they would never receive direct or indirect benefit. And today tens of millions of people do this every day. It is called the world of non-profits, civil society, schools, social entrepreneurship, and non-governmental organizations, of companies who place social and environmental justice at the top of their strategic goals. The scope and scale of this effort is unparalleled inhistory. The living world is not "out there" somewhere, but in your heart. What do we know about life? In the words of biologist Janine Benyus, life creates the conditions that are conducive to life. I can think of no better motto for a future economy. We have tens of thousands of abandoned homes without people and tens of thousands of abandoned people without homes. We have failed bankers advising failed regulators on how to save failed assets. Think about this: we are the only species on this planet without full employment. Brilliant. We have an economy that tells us that it is cheaper to destroy earth in real time than to renew, restore, and sustain it. You can print money to bail out a bank but you can’t print life to bail out a planet. At present we are stealing the future, selling it in the present, and calling it gross domestic product. We can just as easily have an economy that is based on healing the future instead of stealing it. We can either create assets for the future or take the assets of the future. One is called restoration and the other exploitation. And whenever we exploit the earth we exploit people and cause untold suffering. Working for the earth is not a way to get rich, it is a way to be rich. The first living cell came into being nearly 40 million centuries ago, and its direct descendants are in all of our bloodstreams. Literally you are breathing molecules this very second that were inhaled by Moses, Mother Teresa, and Bono. We are vastly interconnected. Our fates are inseparable. We are here because the dream of every cell is to become two cells. In each of you are one quadrillion cells, 90 percent of which are not human cells. Your body is a community, and without those other microorganisms you would perish in hours. Each human cell has 400 billion molecules conducting millions of processes between trillions of atoms. The total cellular activity in one human body is staggering: one septillion actions at any one moment, a one with twenty-four zeros after it. In a millisecond, our body has undergone ten times more processes than there are stars in the universe – exactly what Charles Darwin foretold when he said science would discover that each living creature was a "little universe, formed of a host of self-propagating organisms, inconceivably minute and as numerous as the stars of heaven." So I have two questions for you all: First, can you feel your body? Stop for a moment. Feel your body. One septillion activities going on simultaneously, and your body does this so well you are free to ignore it, and wonder instead when this speech will end. Second question: who is in charge of your body? Who is managing those molecules? Hopefully not a political party. Life is creating the conditions that are conducive to life inside you, just as in all of nature. What I want you to imagine is that collectively humanity is evincing a deep innate wisdom in coming together to heal the wounds and insults of the past. Ralph Waldo Emerson once asked what we would do if the stars only came out once every thousand years. No one would sleep that night, of course. The world would become religious overnight. We would be ecstatic, delirious, made rapturous by the glory of God. Instead the stars come out every night, and we watch television. This extraordinary time when we are globally aware of each other and the multiple dangers that threaten civilization has never happened, not in a thousand years, not in ten thousand years. Each of us is as complex and beautiful as all the stars in the universe. We have done great things and we have gone way off course in terms of honoring creation. You are graduating to the most amazing, challenging, stupefying challenge ever bequested to any generation. The generations before you failed. They didn’t stay up all night. They got distracted and lost sight of the fact that life is a miracle every moment of your existence. Nature beckons you to be on her side. You couldn’t ask for a better boss. The most unrealistic person in the world is the cynic, not the dreamer. Hopefulness only makes sense when it doesn’t make sense to be hopeful. This is your century. Take it and run as if your life depends on it. From indersalim at gmail.com Wed May 20 17:26:00 2009 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 17:26:00 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Disintegrated Kashmiri pandits unite for homeland In-Reply-To: <6353c690905192335o5adbcc08p2d65478f855951c2@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690905192335o5adbcc08p2d65478f855951c2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70905200456y1fb96feal375bad73e983cba3@mail.gmail.com> it is tragic, but i feel it any migration, forced or otherwise, creates a nostaliga, and a genunine desire to go back to that land which once occupied the mind , the life....... but with time, everything changes, the people change, lanes and roads change, everything changes... i remember, Aga Shahid Ali, who wrote wonderful poems on his Kashmiri past.... living in America, if alive, i doubt, if he would have preferred to live in kashmir again.... not even Delhi, where he lived a for a while, and has a deep nostalgia for that... but he transformed his nostalgia into something which people back in kashmir and elsewhere, feel what it means to think about past. but actually living in kashmir,....he would be bored, i am sure love is On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 12:05 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > *Disintegrated Kashmiri pandits unite for homeland* > > *PTI* > > *Jammu: May 19* Two major factions of a Kashmiri > pandit > organisation today united and decided to intensify their demand for homeland > with a union territory status in the Kashmir > valley. > > Panun Kashmir > (PK) > and Panun > Kashmir > Movement > (PKM) > came together for the common cause as four lakh Kashmiri > pandits > wanted a homeland. > >  "Two of the most significant and influential groups- PK and PKM have come > together on a permanent basis for attaining homeland in Kashmir,"PK convenor > Agnishekhar > and > president of PKM Ashwani > Kumar > told > reporters here. > > PK, which had given the slogan of"carving out a homeland with union > territory status for the Kashmiri > pandits > in the valley", had disintegrated into three factions in 2003. > > The struggle for the Kashmiri > pandits > has entered into a crucial phase and there was a yearning in the community > for unity among us, leaders of the factions said adding it will encourage > other groups to follow suit and hasten the attainment of homeland in > Kashmir. > >  They said > now they would intensify their agitation and hold a joint convention on May > 30 in Jammu . > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Wed May 20 21:01:06 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 21:01:06 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: On LGBT- Interview with JOHN D'EMILIO In-Reply-To: <1f9180970905200830i39050358v5f5369c1b55b66aa@mail.gmail.com> References: <1f9180970905200825n589225d8oc1dd4ac3ef6f8e2f@mail.gmail.com> <1f9180970905200830i39050358v5f5369c1b55b66aa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1f9180970905200831j4cdb3d48ub291b5fde7c0008d@mail.gmail.com> ISR Issue 65, May–June 2009 Interview with JOHN D’EMILIO http://www.isreview.org/issues/65/feat-demilio.shtml LGBT liberation: Build a broad movement JOHN D’EMILIO is a professor of history and of gender and women’s studies at the University of Illinois at Chicago and is author of many works including Creating Change: Sexuality, Public Policy and Civil Rights; Making Trouble: Essays on Gay History, Politics, and the University; Intimate Matters: A History of Sexuality in America; and Sexual Politics, Sexual Communities. The ISR’s SHERRY WOLF, author of Sexuality and Socialism: History, Politics, and Theory of LGBT Liberation (forthcoming from Haymarket Books, 2009), interviewed him. YOUR GROUNDBREAKING essay, “Capitalism and Gay Identity,” published in 1983, uses the Marxist method to root the emergence of a distinctive gay and lesbian identity in capitalism. You argue, “Capitalism has created the material conditions for homosexual desire to express itself as a central component of some individuals’ lives…” What, if anything, would you add to this analysis regarding the growing emergence in recent years of those who identify as transgender? THE THRUST of the argument in “Capitalism and Gay Identity” was that the shift from kinship forms of production to individual wage labor opened a social and economic space that allowed individuals to live, to survive, outside a reproductive household. Same-sex desire could congeal into a personal identity and a way of life. The opportunity for that to happen was distributed differently depending on one’s relation to capitalist modes of production. In the U.S., that meant men more than women, whites more than Blacks, the native-born more than immigrants, and the middle class more than the working class. But the heart of it is individuals able to make a living rather than livelihoods being dependent on family groupings. It seems to me that the emergence in the last half century or so of transgender as an identity articulated by a social group depends on something different. It’s more closely connected to the increasingly porous boundaries that have come to characterize gender roles in post-industrial capitalist societies. In the West, one can find individual transpeople in the past who “passed” successfully. But as long as gender roles were highly polarized and sharply differentiated, as they have been until the last generation or so, openly declaring oneself as a gender crosser brought great trouble and persecution. As the distance between male and female has narrowed, it has become easier for individuals to make those crossings. I say “easier” in the sense of relative to past generations, because it would be hard to claim that being trans is easy. WHAT DO you attribute to the rising chorus—both inside and outside contemporary LGBT circles—that insists sexuality is not fluid, but fixed if not at birth, then at an early age? THE IDEA that people are born gay—or lesbian or bisexual—is appealing for lots of reasons. Many of us experience the direction of our sexual desires as something that we have no control over. We just are that way, it seems, so therefore we must be born gay. The people who are most overt in their hatred of queer folks, the religious conservatives, insist that being gay is something we choose, and we know we can’t agree with them. Hence, again, born gay. Liberal heterosexual allies love the idea. If gays are born that way, then of course they shouldn’t be punished for it. “Born gay” is also a relief to any of us who have some doubts about our sexuality or who feel ourselves sinking under the weight of the oppression. If we’re born gay, then it’s not our fault, and we’re certainly not choosing to be oppressed: we just can’t help it, so leave us alone. It also answers those who worry about the effect of too many out-of-the-closet gay men and lesbians: if people are born this way, then young people won’t be influenced by us. I hope you see where I’m going with this: “born gay” is an idea with a large constituency, LGBT and otherwise. It’s an idea designed to allay the ingrained fears of a homophobic society and the internalized fears of gays, lesbians, and bisexuals. What’s most amazing to me about the “born gay” phenomenon is that the scientific evidence for it is thin as a reed, yet it doesn’t matter. It’s an idea with such social utility that one doesn’t need much evidence in order to make it attractive and credible. ON THE one hand, there is growing social acceptance of LGBT people and pop culture reflects that on TV and movies; on the other, social and legal repression persist—including alarming rates of violence against those who are or appear to be lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender. How do you explain this apparent schizophrenia in modern U.S. society regarding LGBT people? I DON’T find it surprising at all. I think you could notice contradictory patterns for almost any identity-based movement of the last fifty years. We could talk about racism and sexism, for instance, and make analogous comments: on the one hand, formal legal rights have expanded dramatically for people of color and for women since the 1960s. Large numbers of women and people of color have experienced expanded educational opportunities, more economic opportunities, and more freedom of movement. And, at the same time, structural racial and gender inequality is still alive and well, and for those who are most in the line of racist and sexist fire, the price is very high. In other words, identity-based movements have brought great gains, but the benefits don’t get distributed equally. For gays, lesbians, and bisexuals (I’m deliberately excluding transgender people here, because I don’t think there’s been nearly as much beneficial change for gender-crossing, there’s been an expansion of legal protections against discrimination, the solidification of gay-identified urban neighborhoods, much more cultural visibility, the elimination of criminal penalties for private consensual sexual behavior among adults, and the end of science and medicine classifying us as ill. This is all wonderful. But, depending on where one grows up, on one’s access to economic and educational privileges, on one’s religious upbringing, and especially on the degree of one’s overt gender nonconformity, one has either more or less access to these favorable changes. I can’t begin to pretend that I can identify what the deeper structural changes are that would be necessary to eliminate homophobia. But I suspect it involves the de-institutionalization of heterosexual marriage as a source of legal and economic privileges. That’s different from saying we should campaign nonstop for same-sex marriage. What I mean is that marriage shouldn’t get you easier access to health insurance or retirement benefits or tax breaks, or any other kind of special deal. Instead, if we value a broad spectrum of household arrangements, we will be making it harder for heterosexual privilege to reproduce itself. The other side of heterosexual privilege, of course, is homophobia and queer oppression. YOU HAVE been quite critical of identity politics, arguing that “movements based on identity probably act as a barrier to solving class-based injustices because they place a premium on group loyalty across class lines.” Since then, queer theory has arisen in academic circles to challenge identity politics. How do you explain queer theory and do you believe it can advance the struggle for LGBT liberation? I’M REALLY not the right person to be speaking about queer theory. It seems to me that at its best, queer theory is a perspective that asks us to question normalcy, to be skeptical of seeing both gender and sexuality as fixed categories. Who can argue with that? And, again, at its best, this can be an angle of vision on society that allows us to critique, to rebel against, to organize against, normative systems that oppress people who refuse to follow the rules of gender and sexuality. That’s invigorating. I’m not sure I know how that might lead to collective mobilization as opposed to the individual’s assertion of a right to be who and how we want to be. YOU WERE a student at Columbia University in 1969 when the Stonewall Riots took place in New York City. What impact did it have on you as a young gay man? And what do you believe are the most important lessons of that upheaval? IF I were to use my own personal story to get at the meaning of Stonewall, I’d have to say Stonewall wasn’t of much significance. That’s a pretty heretical statement to make, so let me try to explain. I was an undergraduate at Columbia when Stonewall occurred. I knew where it was, had even been there once or maybe twice. Christopher Street in 1969 was the main cruising strip in Greenwich Village. Over the three or so previous years, I had pretty much come to terms with being gay. I didn’t have a political consciousness of it, but I’d broken with my Catholic upbringing, and decided that this was me, I wasn’t going to fight it, and I could lead an ethical and meaningful life while being gay. I’d come out to a set of friends, so I had something of a support network, and I had a boyfriend—actually, “lover” was the word we used then. I read about Stonewall a couple of months after it happened in an old issue of the Village Voice that I’d come upon. I remember thinking “wow, this is pretty cool.” But the reason I thought it was cool was because I was an antiwar activist, and had come to see demonstrations and protest and rebellion as what was necessary to change the world. So, the idea that these queens, which is how I think the article described them, were battling New York’s tactical police force — well, I could relate to that. I’d had the experience of running through the streets of midtown Manhattan in protest against the war, as police on horses came chasing after us. I’d marched in DC, I’d picketed the homes of draft board members, I’d rallied in front of the United Nations, and all that. I guess what I’m saying is that Stonewall’s meaning came as much from the times as from the event. It was “cool” to me when I read about it, because I was living in a time and place where protests and progressive movements were a vital part of everyday life. Without that bigger context of progressive mobilization, Stonewall would have been just an event. And I think the lesson is that, short of catastrophic situations like the AIDS epidemic in the 1980s, gay mobilizations—or LGBT mobilizations—are not going to get very far by themselves. They need the deeper and bigger context. So, if you care about gay liberation in the biggest sense, build a broad movement for social and economic justice! THE MOVEMENTS that emerged after Stonewall raised ideas about Gay Power and gay liberation, yet those notions receded in decades since. How would you define LGBT liberation today and what, if anything, do you believe can be done in the here and now to attain it? ONE OF the interesting things to me about the course of the gay and lesbian, and now LGBT movement, is that the periods when radical activism has dominated the movement have been relatively few and short-lived. There was the historical moment of the founding of the Mattachine Society in 1950–51, when this new notion of homosexuals as a minority achieved organizational expression through the work and leadership of gay men who were in the Communist Party or who were fellow travelers. Then there was the post-Stonewall moment when gay liberation and radical lesbian feminism exploded into the world and, through the insistence on coming out, helped create a whole new gay and lesbian world. Two decades later, the assertive activism of ACT UP pushed queers into the heart of both American political debate and popular culture. All three were of great consequence. They each embodied a radical visionary analysis with tactics that were militant for their times. But, none of them lasted long. What they had in common were two things. They emerged because of a larger context of change: the upheavals in sexual mores provoked by World War Two and the Kinsey studies; the mass movements and widespread challenges to authority that we associate with the sixties; and the AIDS cataclysm. In other words, they couldn’t be wished or planned into existence. But, when circumstances changed, when something destabilized the normal routines of life and politics, queer radicalism of one sort or another got its opportunity. I think we’re in a period—provoked by the new opportunities of the Obama presidency—when some small and not so small changes will occur that will move things farther along in the direction of formal equality. What might happen that would propel a larger, more progressive wave of activism into existence? Boy, do I wish I had an answer to that question! -- -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Wed May 20 21:39:44 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 21:39:44 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: What is socialism? By ERIC RUDER In-Reply-To: <1f9180970905200845m4b89cf85s541a74c8fc9e80b@mail.gmail.com> References: <1f9180970905200845m4b89cf85s541a74c8fc9e80b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1f9180970905200909o3ac88392lce3702baf7a0244e@mail.gmail.com> * "..Every severe crisis of capitalism starkly reveals the system’s bankruptcy and gives rise to debates about alternatives. This crisis is no different. Alongside tremendous reserves of hitherto undreamt-of wealth that should long ago have abolished poverty, millions are thrown out of work and are left destitute. Engels’ commentary on how the capitalist class, and capitalism itself, has outlived itself (written in 1877) reads as if it were written yesterday: Their political and intellectual bankruptcy is scarcely any longer a secret to the bourgeoisie themselves. Their economic bankruptcy recurs regularly every 10 years. In every crisis, society is suffocated beneath the weight of its own productive forces and products, which it cannot use, and stands helpless, face-to-face with the absurd contradiction that the producers have nothing to consume, because consumers are wanting. The expansive force of the means of production burst the bonds that the capitalist mode of production had imposed upon them. Their deliverance from these bonds is the one precondition for an unbroken, constantly-accelerated development of the productive forces, and therewith for a practically unlimited increase of production itself. Nor is this all. The socialized appropriation of the means of production does away, not only with the present artificial restrictions upon production, but also with the positive waste and devastation of productive forces and products that are at the present time the inevitable concomitants of production, and that reach their height in the crises. Further, it sets free for the community at large a mass of means of production and of products, by doing away with the senseless extravagance of the ruling classes of today, and their political representatives. The possibility of securing for every member of society, by means of socialized production, an existence not only fully sufficient materially, and becoming day-by-day more full, but an existence guaranteeing to all the free development and exercise of their physical and mental faculties—this possibility is now, for the first time, here, but it is here." * ISR Issue 65, May–June 2009 What is socialism? http://www.isreview.org/issues/65/feat-socialism.shtml By ERIC RUDER IN A matter of months, the global financial crisis has dramatically reshaped the economic and political landscape around the world. The high priests of global capitalism have scrapped decades of neoliberal orthodoxy, replacing their denunciations of government spending as harmful interference in the free market with calls for trillions in bailout bills and stimulus packages. “The goal is to get the engine of capitalism going as productively as possible,” Nancy Koehn, a historian at the Harvard Business School, told the New York Times. “Ideology is a luxury good in times of crisis.”1 After decades of promoting the gospel of free markets globally and deregulation at home, the push for deregulation has been replaced—for all but the most ideologically blinkered—by the gospel of state intervention. In mid-February, former Federal Reserve chairman Alan Greenspan, a zealot of free markets, deregulation, and privatization over the past four decades, acknowledged that a nationalization of at least part of the banking sector might be necessary to address the insolvency of major American banks.2 This followed Greenspan’s admission in October that the crisis, in particular the catastrophic errors in judgment by U.S. banks that precipitated the crisis, revealed a “mistake” in free-market economic models. “[There is] a flaw in the model that I perceived is the critical functioning structure that defines how the world works,” said Greenspan.3 The massive injections of capital into the banking system as well as proposals for hundreds of billions of dollars in economic stimulus spending have returned Keynesianism to a place of prestige in the debate about how to manage capitalism. To illustrate the extent of the political transformation, it’s worth recalling that the response of many Republicans to the Bush administration’s rescue plan was to proclaim the imminent demise of American capitalism. “This massive bail-out is not the solution, it is financial socialism, it is un-American,” said Sen. Jim Bunning (R-KY) of the initial $700 billion plan to reassure holders of mortgage-backed debt and to get the credit markets working again. On another occasion, Bunning denounced then-Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson for acting like China’s finance minister. “No company fails in communist China, because they’re all partly owned by the government,” he said. “I sincerely believe that Henry Paulson and Ben Bernanke should resign. They have taken the free market out of the free market.”4 Perhaps even more compelling is the overnight conversion of Representative Thaddeus McCotter (R-MI) from free-marketeer to bailout booster. On September 29, McCotter compared the $700 billion bailout to the “horrors” of the Russian Revolution. “During the 1917 Bolshevik revolution, the slogan was ‘Peace, land, and bread,’” said McCotter. “Today you are being asked to choose between bread and freedom. I suggest that the people on Main Street have said they prefer their freedom, and I am with them.”5 But just a few weeks later on November 20, McCotter, whose district borders Detroit, showed up at a Capitol Hill hearing with auto executives to speak in favor of the bailout for Detroit’s Big Three auto manufacturers.6 It looks as if McCotter decided he’d prefer bread to freedom after all. The return of state intervention The upshot of this shift in the ideological tectonic plates—combined with the McCain-Palin campaign’s attempt to smear Barack Obama as a socialist—has brought socialism into mainstream political discourse for the first time in at least a generation. What’s more, the smear failed. Not only did U.S. voters elect a man accused of being a socialist, but various pundits and experts have aggressively defended government intervention. Newsweek’s Washington bureau editor Michael Hirsh praised President Roosevelt’s salvation of American capitalism in the 1930s with “a large dose of socialism” and calls on Barack Obama to do the same. Lexington’s Kentucky Herald-Leader also made the case for socialism, arguing that socialism is not like pregnancy. You can be a little socialist, and, thank goodness, this country always has been. Otherwise we wouldn’t have public schools and universities, public highways, Social Security or Medicare. And, thank goodness, the public resisted President Bush’s plans to hand Social Security over to the very financial titans who made out like bandits while crashing the economy…. Or the years after World War II when a little socialism built state universities and provided GIs with education benefits that created a good life for the American middle class. Think back to the Roosevelt years when a little socialism pulled this country out of the depths of economic depression and put people to work building parks, roads, bridges and public buildings.7 A few months later, the cover of Newsweek boldly proclaimed “We are all socialists now,” and the Nation magazine began a series of articles on the theme of “Reimagining socialism,” which included contributions by Bill Fletcher and Barbara Ehrenreich, Tariq Ali, Rebecca Solnit, Mike Davis, Kim Moody, Dave Zirin, and many others.8 The distinctive feature of much of this public discussion of socialism—with some exceptions—is that most admirers and detractors generally share a common (and hollowed out) idea of what socialism is: namely, state intervention in the economy.9 There is good reason for this conclusion: for more than a century socialist parties throughout Europe became parties of government and thus the highest profile expressions of socialist politics. In the U.S., Norman Thomas, the presidential candidate of the Socialist Party in the 1930s and 1940s, argued, “The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But under the name of ‘liberalism,’ they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day, America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened.”10 In this paradigm, economic systems can fall anywhere along a continuum between capitalism and socialism based chiefly on the degree of state intervention in, or ownership of, the economy. This criterion for assessing how “socialist” an economy is leaves out a critical question: In whose interests is this state intervention carried out? In fact, the political parties grouped under the banner of social democracy11 have at various times and places favored state intervention in the economy, but at other times (and especially over the last two decades) have pushed for deregulation and privatization with increasing enthusiasm. Even when they have favored state intervention in the economy, they have done so on terms that primarily benefit the owners of capital, even if some benefits flow to workers as well. The U.S. financial bailout is a perfect demonstration of the idea that state intervention doesn’t automatically equal a socialist vision of society that puts people before profits. Rather, it’s a reflection of the fact that the scale of the economic crisis requires an institution that can marshal resources far greater than even the world’s largest financial institutions are capable of mustering. The use of massive state intervention to save the big banks, insurance companies, mortgage companies, and automobile makers while letting the lives of working people be ripped apart by foreclosures, evictions, inflation, and unemployment represents an effort to save global capitalism from its own excesses. Frederick Engels pointed out this dynamic more than 150 years ago and is worth quoting at length. [T]he official representative of capitalist society—the state—will ultimately have to undertake the direction of production. This necessity for conversion into State property is felt first in the great institutions for intercourse and communication—the post office, the telegraphs, the railways. If the crises demonstrate the incapacity of the bourgeoisie for managing any longer modern productive forces, the transformation of the great establishments for production and distribution into joint-stock companies, trusts, and State property, show how unnecessary the bourgeoisie are for that purpose. All the social functions of the capitalist has no further social function than that of pocketing dividends, tearing off coupons, and gambling on the Stock Exchange, where the different capitalists despoil one another of their capital… But, the transformation—either into joint-stock companies and trusts, or into State-ownership—does not do away with the capitalistic nature of the productive forces. In the joint-stock companies and trusts, this is obvious. And the modern State, again, is only the organization that bourgeois society takes on in order to support the external conditions of the capitalist mode of production against the encroachments as well of the workers as of individual capitalists. The modern state, no matter what its form, is essentially a capitalist machine—the state of the capitalists, the ideal personification of the total national capital. The more it proceeds to the taking over of productive forces, the more does it actually become the national capitalist, the more citizens does it exploit. The workers remain wage-workers—proletarians. The capitalist relation is not done away with. It is, rather, brought to a head. But, brought to a head, it topples over. State-ownership of the productive forces is not the solution of the conflict, but concealed within it are the technical conditions that form the elements of that solution.12 The capitalist case for state intervention Though they don’t use Engels’ terms, the chief proponents of global capitalism accept this basic insight. Thus, the Financial Times has consciously attacked the free-market ideologues that it usually defends. Does this rescue mean the end of private financial capitalism? Of course not. Although the size of the crisis requires an exceptional response, this is but the latest in a long line of banking crises and state rescues. Nationally owned banks seem likely to be a reality in many countries for a decade... These leaders are not putting capitalism to the sword in favor of the gentler rule of the state. They are using the state to defeat the marketplace’s most dangerous historic enemy: widespread depression. And they are right to do so.13 Likewise, George Bush sought to comfort free-market hardliners as he announced the plan to follow the lead of European central banks by injecting capital into the U.S. banking system through stock purchases in financial institutions. “These measures are not intended to take over the free market, but to preserve it,” Bush told reporters.14 Obama struck a similar tone at the G20 summit in London, speaking about the need for coordinated stimulus plans internationally: “Each country has its own constraints, its own political rhythms and what we want to make sure is that everybody is doing something...and that we are prepared to step into the breach should current efforts prove inadequate.”15 Columnist E.J. Dionne described the Obama approach as a “novel blend of opposing ideas,” but his observation essentially boils down to a strained acknowledgment of the same tendencies identified by Engels. “Describing what Obama is up to leads quickly to sentences freighted with contradictions,” wrote Dionne. “He wants to regulate the market more tightly in order to save it. He thinks big government is required now if we are to return to a less-restricted economic system later. You might say that he is using collectivist means to capitalist ends.”16 The immense scale of state intervention shouldn’t be understood as an assault on capitalism, so much as an alternative method for managing it. That doesn’t mean that the capitalist class isn’t disappointed by the need for a growing public sector. Under normal conditions, U.S. corporations push for deregulation and free markets because this makes it easier to maximize their profits. Deregulation of the energy industry, for example, allowed Enron to make big profits by manipulating the supply of electricity, until its sham accounting practices and bad bets brought it down. Likewise, the lack of government oversight let the mortgage industry and a shadow banking system create huge markets in securities trading based on subprime loans, which no investment bank or hedge fund could refuse to participate in if it wanted to keep pace with its rivals. The bailout of various financial firms and nationalization of the banks, however, is nothing more than a way to use the taxes paid by the working class to absorb the losses incurred by Wall Street’s gamblers. On April 1, Nobel Prize-winning economist Joseph Stiglitz described Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner’s plan this way: Some Americans are afraid that the government might temporarily “nationalize” the banks, but that option would be preferable to the Geithner plan. After all, the FDIC has taken control of failing banks before, and done it well. It has even nationalized large institutions like Continental Illinois (taken over in 1984, back in private hands a few years later), and Washington Mutual (seized last September, and immediately resold). What the Obama administration is doing is far worse than nationalization: it is ersatz capitalism, the privatizing of gains and the socializing of losses. It is a “partnership” in which one partner robs the other. And such partnerships—with the private sector in control—have perverse incentives, worse even than the ones that got us into the mess.17 Despite all the free-market ideologues who prattle on about America’s foundation in free markets, state intervention in the economy is a persistent feature of capitalism, both in the U.S. and around the world. “Over the last century, the federal government has occasionally nationalized railways, coal mines and steel mills, and has even taken a controlling interest in banks when it was deemed to be in the national interest,” according to the New York Times.18 Sometimes, these takeovers took place during times of war to facilitate production and distribution for military purposes. But the federal government has also seized failing companies and banks—for example, the 1984 takeover of Continental Illinois Bank and Trust, then the seventh-largest U.S. bank—when such collapses threatened to impact the rest of the economy. During the Great Depression of the 1930s, the administration of Franklin Roosevelt bought shares in thousands of banks, undertook massive spending to stimulate the economy and imposed a series of regulations on the finance industry (a number of which were repealed under the presidency of Bill Clinton, thus opening the way for the rapid growth of a shadow banking system that triggered the current crisis). The rise of state capitalism Such episodes of state intervention reflect a more general trend in the development of capitalism and nation states in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. During this time, the concentration and centralization of capital led to the first industrial monopolies (think of the rise of the railroads, oil corporations, and industries essential to the production of capital goods, such as steel, copper and other extractive industries). At the same time, the globalization of the economy created increased competition between national states over the control of markets, raw materials, and sources of cheap labor in the less developed world. These dynamics, in the words of Russian Marxist Nikolai Bukharin, compelled the development of “state capitalist trusts” as each state attempted to marshal its domestic resources in order to nurture, develop, and project its own industrial powerhouses at home and abroad. This tendency intensified globally in the early twentieth century, but the extent of this fusion between state and capital differed from one nation to another. The global economic crisis of the 1930s impelled these developments yet further as nations attempted to bend all efforts toward restarting their economies. The command-and-control economy of the Soviet Union and the state control of the economy in Nazi Germany represented one end of the spectrum while the New Deal policies of the Roosevelt era were milder expressions of the same currents at work. Thus, in different places and times during the last hundred years, various nations around the world have relied on state intervention in the economy to different degrees in order to promote capitalist development and to deal with other political challenges. In Europe, upsurges in workers’ struggles forced many countries to use more aggressive social spending in an effort to co-opt the labor movement and head off more radical challenges to the capitalist system. In addition, mobilizing resources on a large enough scale to rebuild from the devastation of the First and Second World Wars led many European states to direct investment into critical areas. In the USSR, after Joseph Stalin and his allies effectively overturned all vestiges of workers’ democracy and workplace control over production, the state bureaucracy undertook a rapid development of productive forces based on the brutal exploitation of the Russian working class, enabling what had been a backward economy to contend as a world superpower for a number of decades. Thus, various countries, including the U.S., have used state capitalist measures to manage both economic development and economic crisis at various junctures—not as a means to abolish capitalism but as a means to preserve it. In fact, even in “normal” times, the U.S. state directs huge amounts of investment outside the free market—for example, the building and maintenance of the federal interstate highway system, military spending, and research and development spending. But because Corporate America benefits from such investment in many direct and indirect ways, they don’t see fit to denounce this as “socialism.” Instead, they see these measures as the state fulfilling the useful function of maintaining a “healthy business climate.” The socialist case for state intervention Just as the capitalist class isn’t agnostic about the question of state intervention, generally preferring deregulation and privatization to state ownership of the economy, socialists likewise are not indifferent to such issues. Even if state ownership does not in itself accomplish the full socialist program, the neoliberal trend toward privatizing all manner of formerly public functions—from schools to airports to roads to parking meters—represents an assault on working-class interests. Privatization allows corporations to cut jobs, cut wages, and cut services all in the name of efficiency while they pocket taxpayer dollars in the form of profits. There is no doubt that nationalized health care, for example, would be a tremendous advance over the for-profit, private insurance-based system that, in the name of profitability, makes it more difficult to get health care for those who need it most. Privatization takes the decision-making about such services out of the public sphere, where these issues can be subjected to political pressures and political demands, and puts them in the hands of private entrepreneurs who are wholly unaccountable—unlike politicians who are subject at least in some limited way to the will of the voters at the end of the day. Similarly, nationalization of industries under threat of bankruptcy has historically been a demand of the socialist movement as a means to save jobs and ensure the provision of needed services. We should demand that basic necessities of the working class—such as utilities, for example—be taken out of the hands of private corporations and nationalized. In less developed countries, nationalization can serve an additional function—to expropriate foreign multinational corporations and put the profits of large industries and indigenous natural resources under the control of the national state, thus keeping those profits from being siphoned abroad and instead directed toward domestic industrial development and social welfare. There is a long tradition of deploying such defensive measures against imperial domination by radical, populist, and social-democratic governments around the world—from the 1938 nationalization of foreign oil companies by Mexican President Lázaro Cárdenas to the 1972 Chilean nationalization of the foreign-owned copper industry to the 2006 nationalization of Bolivia’s foreign-owned oil and gas reserves by President Evo Morales. In demanding such nationalizations, however, the left calls for these institutions to be placed under democratic workers’ control. This is essential because such nationalized institutions continue to operate within a wider capitalist context and therefore must be subject to pressure from below to answer to the needs of the working class rather than capital. The socialist case against the market So if socialism isn’t simply state control over important parts of the economy, what is it? First, it should be said that a socialist society would indeed need to nationalize key industries in order to replace the irrationalities of capitalist finance with a more rational way of directing investment. The Financial Times editorial board’s own defense of the banking industry is an indictment of the irrational and crisis-prone nature of capitalism: Modern capitalism needs well-functioning banks. Businesses and individuals need liquidity and an effective means of turning their savings into productive investments. But banks perform this function by making bets on the future. This is the purpose for which they exist—but it makes them inherently unstable. They tend to overextend themselves in the good times and are overcautious in the bad, exacerbating booms and busts. The reason we insist on keeping our economic systems built on these trembling fault lines is that they are normally so effective at this job of intermediation.19 This passage beautifully captures the anarchy of the free market. Capitalism’s lifeblood depends on finance capital granting credit to firms seeking to make new investments. But when bankers get together and decide whether to finance a proposal put before them by a particular firm, they do so without regard to any consideration except whether they can expect to have their loan repaid with interest. Likewise, companies don’t produce any goods except those they expect to be able to sell profitably on the free market. This dynamic carries with it three fundamental problems. First, those goods that people need, but are too poor to afford, simply won’t get produced. So even if there is a need for more food to be produced or more houses to be built, if the hungry and the homeless have no money, they also have no way of making their demand “effective”—and thus, no profit can be made from producing such goods for the market. Second, the rational deployment of society’s productive forces in pursuit of broadly agreed-upon social goals is constantly frustrated by the allocation of capital investment according to market mechanisms. For example, scientists have identified various sustainable strategies to address the increasingly dire threat to life on Earth posed by climate change and other ecological pressures. But implementing these strategies constantly runs up against the entrenched economic and political clout of the corporate titans that dominate key industrial sectors such as transportation and energy. The strategic thinking and long-terms plans of these entities are dominated by only one concern—how to make a profit. In the infamous words of Bethlehem Steel CEO Donald Trautlein, “We are not in the business of making steel. We are in the business of making money.” Every CEO must always remain acutely aware of this basic point—or risk the corporation’s financial ruin. The production of goods isn’t undertaken because of the usefulness of the goods in question. Steel—or whatever commodity—is only an incidental means to achieve another goal, namely the selling of the good on the market in order to realize profit. Third, competition between rival firms means that in good times, every firm must rush to produce more goods, grab as large a share of expanding markets as possible and attempt to undersell the competition. Failure to do so will leave any individual firm with a smaller mass of profits to undertake the next round of innovation and investment. But investment into a particular type of production must be made today, while the products of that investment are sold some time in the future—in some cases, years in the future. For example, in the case of automobile production, investments made today require years of building up assembly lines, supply chains, and production facilities to bring them online. But if every auto company is rushing to take advantage of a perceived increase in demand, by the time they all get their cars to market, they can produce a glut. The seemingly shrewd decision to extend credit to a big auto producer now suddenly looks bad when excess supply means that all the cars that have been produced can’t be sold profitably. In a similar fashion, the current financial crisis is the product of a rush by investment firms to take advantage of the housing bubble by making loans to homeowners at high interest rates that seemed certain to be repaid—so long as the bubble continued to expand. Every kind of hedge fund, investment bank and financial institution found it impossible to resist investing in the high-yield bundles of these loans—precisely because if they didn’t, their return might look anemic compared to rivals that were enjoying handsome rewards. Now that the housing bubble has burst, and these investments have become so toxic, the banks fear making loans to anyone, unsure of whether the potential borrower may be the next to go down, and hence unable to repay the loan. This is what the Financial Times means when it states that banks “tend to overextend themselves in the good times and are overcautious in the bad, exacerbating booms and busts.” Nevertheless, the Financial Times asserts, banks “raise living standards” while state control over investment tends to “sacrifice efficiency and growth for stability.”20 With the current financial crisis destroying housing equity, creating unemployment, and producing a huge bill to be paid by taxpayers, the claim that banks “raise living standards” ought to make the editorial writers blush—unless they mean to make the more obvious point that banks raise living standards for bankers. The question, then, is not just nationalization under capitalism—where workers merely trade one boss for another—but complete socialization of production under popular, democratic control. Socialism from below In a society where all of the means of production are socialized, blind market forces would be replaced by democratic planning. The accumulated savings of society would not be handed over to a class of people, unelected and unaccountable, to invest for the purpose of their private gain. Instead, the economic output of society would be used to address the social needs of the producers. The critical determining factor of whether state ownership of the means of production (or the means of finance) has a socialist character depends on the answer to a simple question: If the state controls the economy, who controls the state? The Obama administration’s state intervention in the economy today is designed to preserve decision-making power for the owners of banks and corporations. And in any case, the principle that the state will use in deciding how to exercise its ownership stake will be to maintain a “healthy business climate,” not to put the needs of workers and the poor first. This is not surprising, given the completely incestuous relationship between the state and private business, with a steady flow of businessmen into government jobs and then back again. Robert Rubin began as a co-chairman of Goldman Sachs, worked as Clinton’s treasury secretary, and then went on to work for Citigroup. Henry Paulson was CEO of Goldman Sachs before he became Bush’s treasury secretary.21 Obama’s top adviser, Lawrence Summers, who was also a treasury secretary for Clinton, “earned more than $5 million last year from the hedge fund D. E. Shaw and collected $2.7 million in speaking fees from Wall Street companies that received government bailout money.”22 Because of its economic clout, the capitalist class can exert control over the state even when politicans and government bureaucrats are not on corporate payrolls. It is simply “common sense” in Washington that what is good for Wall Street is good for America. The working class exerts its power, first through its ability to shut down production—the strike weapon. But if it is to assert its collective interests on society as a whole and against the employers as a class, it must seize political power. Only after the working class has seized political power can it begin to reorganize production and distribution in such a way as to gradually abolish the market and production for profit’s sake, and replace those relations with a purely socialized system of planning. As Karl Marx and Frederick Engels put it in the Communist Manifesto: [T]he first step in the revolution by the working class is to raise the proletariat to the position of ruling class to win the battle of democracy. The proletariat will use its political supremacy to wrest, by degree, all capital from the bourgeoisie, to centralize all instruments of production in the hands of the State, i.e., of the proletariat organized as the ruling class; and to increase the total productive forces as rapidly as possible. Of course, in the beginning, this cannot be effected except by means of despotic inroads on the rights of property, and on the conditions of bourgeois production; by means of measures, therefore, which appear economically insufficient and untenable, but which, in the course of the movement, outstrip themselves, necessitate further inroads upon the old social order, and are unavoidable as a means of entirely revolutionizing the mode of production.23 Marx and Engels then list a number of measures that would facilitate the placing of society’s productive infrastructure at the disposal of a new workers’ state, including a steeply progressive income tax, the abolition of inheritance rights, the centralization of credit through nationalization of the banks, and the steady extension of the state’s command over the key sectors of industrial and agricultural production. Thus, the state could set about directing economic activity to address, first, pressing social needs and, over time, progressively more ambitious goals in the realms of consumption, education, art, and so forth. Marx and Engels continue: When, in the course of development, class distinctions have disappeared, and all production has been concentrated in the hands of a vast association of the whole nation, the public power will lose its political character. Political power, properly so called, is merely the organized power of one class for oppressing another. If the proletariat during its contest with the bourgeoisie is compelled, by the force of circumstances, to organize itself as a class, if, by means of a revolution, it makes itself the ruling class, and, as such, sweeps away by force the old conditions of production, then it will, along with these conditions, have swept away the conditions for the existence of class antagonisms and of classes generally, and will thereby have abolished its own supremacy as a class. In place of the old bourgeois society, with its classes and class antagonisms, we shall have an association, in which the free development of each is the condition for the free development of all.24 >From here to there What does it mean to say, as Marx does, that workers must achieve political power? It does not mean winning a majority of seats in a congress or a parliament. Such institutions represent a truncated democracy at best. History is full of social-democratic parties whose efforts at achieving electoral success have blunted their revolutionary vision, and who, having achieved parliamentary position, have adapted to, rather than fundamentally altered, capitalism. If the state is, as Engels describes it, “essentially a capitalist machine,” then surely the working class needs a different kind of state in order to effect a social transformation. The complete socialization of production and distribution requires workers to erect their own democratic state on the ruins of the old that seizes control over production and distribution and reorganizes these spheres of economic life along socialist lines. The key lies in the popular masses forming, in the course of resisting capitalism, counter-institutions that begin first as organs of collective struggle, but which are able potentially to evolve into alternative institutions of state power. This may sound like a compelling, but ultimately utopian fantasy, but there is a rich history—often hidden from view by the work of historians who focus more on heads of state than on the struggles of regular people to shape the world around them—of such counter-institutions springing up again and again as an organic part of workers’ struggles. At the high points of working-class uprisings during the last century and a half—from Paris in 1871, to Russia in 1917 and Germany in 1918, to Hungary in 1956, to Chile in 1973 and Iran in 1979—workers who organized inspiring fights against capitalist exploitation also set up workers’ councils (called by many different names, but in essence fulfilling the same function) to coordinate their efforts. At the same time, these formations gave workers a means of carrying out production under their own control and insuring that the products of their labor were used to feed and sustain their challenge to the status quo rather than supply the defenders of the old order with the resources to defeat the workers’ councils and the vision of a new society they represented. Workers’ councils at the school, hospital, warehouse, and factory level would be essential to give workers a say in the day-to-day running of their workplaces. Each workplace council would also send elected delegates to coordinate decision-making on an industry-wide and economy-wide basis. Because these delegates would be drawn directly from and accountable to the base, because they would be paid the same as the rest of the workers in that workplace and known by their co-workers, and because they would be recallable if they failed to exercise the will of those who elected them, such councils would give workers the ability to have a real and deciding say in every aspect of society.25 Needless to say, the political and business establishment in these examples didn’t relinquish their wealth, power, and privilege without a fight. Thus, achieving workers’ democratic control over production requires a confrontation with the state to succeed in the long run. Nationalization of the banks and other institutions are essential in the effort to create a society based on democratic planning; but that nationalization will be nothing more than a form of state capitalism unless it is organized under the democratic control of the majority. As a result, the transition from capitalism to socialism can’t be a gradual or incremental process by which the state enacts reforms and progressively takes ownership of more and larger chunks of the economy. Rather, socialism represents a radical break with the present system—and depends on the active struggles of workers and their subsequent engagement with every aspect of governing society in their own interest, under the guiding principle of human need before corporate greed. Every severe crisis of capitalism starkly reveals the system’s bankruptcy and gives rise to debates about alternatives. This crisis is no different. Alongside tremendous reserves of hitherto undreamt-of wealth that should long ago have abolished poverty, millions are thrown out of work and are left destitute. Engels’ commentary on how the capitalist class, and capitalism itself, has outlived itself (written in 1877) reads as if it were written yesterday: Their political and intellectual bankruptcy is scarcely any longer a secret to the bourgeoisie themselves. Their economic bankruptcy recurs regularly every 10 years. In every crisis, society is suffocated beneath the weight of its own productive forces and products, which it cannot use, and stands helpless, face-to-face with the absurd contradiction that the producers have nothing to consume, because consumers are wanting. The expansive force of the means of production burst the bonds that the capitalist mode of production had imposed upon them. Their deliverance from these bonds is the one precondition for an unbroken, constantly-accelerated development of the productive forces, and therewith for a practically unlimited increase of production itself. Nor is this all. The socialized appropriation of the means of production does away, not only with the present artificial restrictions upon production, but also with the positive waste and devastation of productive forces and products that are at the present time the inevitable concomitants of production, and that reach their height in the crises. Further, it sets free for the community at large a mass of means of production and of products, by doing away with the senseless extravagance of the ruling classes of today, and their political representatives. The possibility of securing for every member of society, by means of socialized production, an existence not only fully sufficient materially, and becoming day-by-day more full, but an existence guaranteeing to all the free development and exercise of their physical and mental faculties—this possibility is now, for the first time, here, but it is here.26 Eric Ruder is in the editorial board of the ISR. He is also a frequent contributor to Socialist Worker (www.socialistworker.org). 1 Steve Lohr, “Intervention is bold, but has a basis in history,” New York Times, October 13, 2008. 2 Krishna Guha and Edward Luce, “Greenspan backs bank nationalization,” Financial Times, February 18, 2009. 3 Martin Crutsinger, “Greenspan says flaw in market system,” ABC News, October 23, 2008. 4 Matthew Benjamin, “Senator Bunning says Paulson acts like socialist, should resign,” Bloomberg, September 9, 2008. 5 John Bresnahan, “McCotter compares bailout to Bolshevik Revolution in Russia,” The Crypt blog on Politico.com, September 29, 2008. 6 In fact, McCotter sounds like a champion of the working class in his speech at the hearing, www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7YBjjLKLd0. 7 Editorial, “Takes a socialist to know one,” Kentucky Herald-Leader, October 31, 2008. 8 Jon Meacham and Evan Thomas, “We are all socialists now,” Newsweek, February 16, 2009; “Reimagining socialism,” Nation series began March 4, 2009. 9 Some of the contributors to the Nation series, such as Mike Davis, Kim Moody, Dan La Botz, and Dave Zirin, do not share this view. Nevertheless, virtually all of the mainstream discussion, and a lot of the left discussion, equate socialism with state ownership. 10 Cited in Donald Boudreaux, “Is Barack Obama really a socialist?” Christian Science Monitor, October 30, 2008. 11 A note on terminology is useful here, given the evolution of the term “social democracy” in the socialist tradition. The ISR uses the terms “socialism” or “revolutionary socialism” to distinguish the tradition of “socialism from below” from the most common forms of “socialism from above,” namely Stalinism and social democracy (though many in mainstream political discourse use the term “socialism” to refer to present-day social-democratic parties that have established themselves as “responsible” reformist parties of government around the world). Before the First World War, the terms “socialism” and “social democracy” were used interchangeably, and the Second International was made up of member parties from around the world, including the Bolshevik Party in Russia (the First International was the International Workingmen’s Association joined by Karl Marx and Frederick Engels in 1864). But the Second International fractured in 1914 as its member parties supported their own governments in the First World War, leading Lenin and a handful of other revolutionaries to form the Third International. And to emphasize their commitment to the revolutionary internationalism of Marx and the principles laid out by him and Engels in The Communist Manifesto of 1848, Lenin and the Third International often described themselves and their movement as “communist.” After 1917, the Third International set up communist parties around the world to help spread the revolution, but after Stalin’s conquest of power in the late 1920s, the term “communism” came to be associated with the Stalinist distortion of the Third International’s principles. 12 Frederick Engels, Socialism: Utopian and Scientific (New York: International Publishers, No Date), 66–8. www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1880/soc-utop/ch03.htm. 13 Editorial, “Nationalize to save the free market,” Financial Times, October 13, 2008. 14 Jeannine Aversa, “Bailout becomes buy-in as feds move into banking,” Associated Press, October 14, 2008. 15 Interview with Barack Obama, Financial Times, March 30, 2009. 16 E.J. Dionne, “The Nobelists vs. Obama and Geithner,” April 2, 2009, www.truthdig.com/report/item/20090401_the_obama_enigma/. 17 Joseph Stiglitz, “Obama’s ersatz capitalism,” New York Times, April 1, 2009. 18 “Intervention is bold,” New York Times. 19 “Nationalize,” Financial Times. 20 Ibid. 21 Simon Johnson, “The quiet coup,” Atlantic Monthly, May 2009. 22 Jeff Zeleny, “Financial industry paid millions to Obama aide,” New York Times, April 4, 2009. 23 Karl Marx and Frederick Engels, The Communist Manifesto: A Road Map to History’s Most Important Political Document, Phil Gasper, ed. (Chicago:Haymarket Books, 2005), 69–70. 24 Ibid., 71. 25 For a more thorough elaboration and defense of the idea of democratic socialist planning than space allows here, see David McNally, Against the Market (London and New York: Verso, 1993); and Ernest Mandel, “In defense of socialist planning,” New Left Review 159, September–October 1986, 5–37, www.newleftreview.org/?view=928 and at reality.gn.apc.org/econ/Mandel.pdf. 26 Engels, Socialism: Utopian and Scientific, 71–2. -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From chintangirishmodi at gmail.com Thu May 21 01:57:36 2009 From: chintangirishmodi at gmail.com (Chintan) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 01:57:36 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fellowships for Threatened Academics: Professors, Researchers and Lecturers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: altaf makhiawala Date: May 21, 2009 1:50 AM Subject: [Opportunity341] Fellowships for Threatened Academics: Professors, Researchers and Lecturers To: Opportunities Fellowships for Threatened Academics: Professors, Researchers and Lecturers Application Deadline: 15 June 2009 The Institute of International Education's Scholar Rescue Fund (SRF) provides fellowships for established scholars whose lives and work are threatened in their home countries. These fellowships permit professors, researchers and other senior academics to find temporary refuge at universities and colleges anywhere in the world, enabling them to pursue their academic work and to continue to share their knowledge with students, colleagues, and the community at large. When conditions improve, these scholars will return home to help rebuild universities and societies ravaged by fear, conflict and repression. During the fellowship, conditions in a scholar's home country may improve, permitting safe return; if safe return is not possible, the scholar may use the fellowship period to identify a longer-term opportunity. Read our outreach message in Arabic, Farsi, French and Spanish; review eligibility criteria; and download the application form: http://www.scholarrescuefund.org/pages/for-scholars.php Partner with SRF and host a scholar: http://www.scholarrescuefund.org/pages/for-hosts.php General information: http://www.scholarrescuefund.org/ Contact Us at: SRF(at)iie.org Kind regards, Sophie Dalsimer Scholar Rescue Fund Institute of International Education Web: www.scholarrescuefund.org --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Options Unlimited" group. To post to this group, send email to options-unlimited at googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to options-unlimited+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/options-unlimited?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~--- From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Thu May 21 11:56:13 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 11:56:13 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: plight of the muslim women and appeasement Message-ID: <90763.19947.qm@web94707.mail.in2.yahoo.com> ----- Forwarded Message ---- From: subhrodip sengupta To: anupam chakravartty Cc: reader-list-request at sarai.net Sent: Wednesday, 20 May, 2009 10:50:33 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] plight of the muslim women and appeasement Sir,      Recieving money is till now perhaps one of the most endearing expiriences one might have or ok some people have. One envy others success or rare fortune is known as dog in the manger. Since I cannot provide life I can not and quite literally not, take it away. But every interview I read I read some statement of Burning in Hell, statement by educated middleclass muslim women, parents of film makers and other workers. Perhaps I know a very few muslim girls and women, and hence none has revealed such extremist ideas to me. Two questions disturb me: 1. Will ever 'money' correct discrimination? Except certain progressive people, girls from a high society are at worst. What about them. Is it okay to Burqua clad your child forcefully before sending her to school? The social taboo remaining, how many families will encash the money if it is not okay to send girls to school? If not then root of discrimination is magnified under poverty and mirroring it government is using just another discrimination. I mean hindu-muslim divide. Classic, and the mirrored one remains through vague impressions about society and culture as a gulit borrowed by the mother. The spirit of commoditisation and prototyping the female population shall continue..It is okay, we might get yet another way to peep into the burqua what lies within or by paying 300 show that we fear them as they fear us. 2.. Isn't the fertiliser of corruption pre-mixed in the soil wherin these 'holy' seeds of sensitisation are borne? Who are the people most likely to enroll in this scheme before literacy level shoots up? Are they supporters of congress idealogy? What is the big deal. Girls being western educated can preach the same idealogy to her children, this gendering her is not discrimination, not on religious grounds, at least! A wonderful way to break arabic code, and to build a trustworthy minority elite. At least muslim women-men divide would widen bringing them under control. Those who would encash it without paying a cent. Educated muslims. Instead why not attack more aggressively dowry, gender roles at home, organise adult education classes, health checkup, or sensitisation agressively, involving more women in social roles. The idea of a nation-machoist education coupled by a beurgeoise setup of mind is indeed captivating, then we can have more jobless graduates or well more jobs at your own terms, less religion strays away from it.. Moreover there would be more competition among muslims who are becoming too hot to handle, once given this VIP treatment. Ok I am an Indian and a tax payer. Whatever happens to it's markets or exchequer affects me as well. I am a Hindu and am a bit uncomfortable if one calls jain, Church, gurdwara and mosque goers Hindu for having once bathed in the Ganges. But as far as the society is concerned I cant let any person die, Sati, Tarannum or Rizwaanur. Jokes apart I do not see how educated people make such guesses except consolidate vote banks for differential treatment. A simple question for those who are working to improve plight,' What is the rate of trafficking of muslim girls In India?' What ratios between hindu rape and musli rapes. Perhaps we would then stop making sadist comments. And pardon me, where is the difference between a muslim girl and a hindu girl? Ok not men! Getting an answer I would leave Rs 300 of mine, rather mind my own business. No not open a bank for Muslims, am I a dog that waters it's mouth every time it sees flesh? The government can not create jobs and I wouldn't reproduce at Rs 300 either. Why if possible not erradicate poverty all together? Cash Dump have their own logic and implications and for altruism, they are biggest failure, as what was with consumers yesterday shall lie in hands of producers tomorrow! I'd throw a booze party and live a happy man! Perhaps that would encourage some to give me all the pleasures I deserve! ________________________________ From: anupam chakravartty To: sarai list Sent: Monday, 18 May, 2009 11:19:11 AM Subject: [Reader-list] plight of the muslim women and appeasement Perhaps Mr malik is not aware of the fact that plight of the muslim women among facing the gender discrimination is worst in india. it is true that Maulana Azad Trust has been Rs 500 to disburse Rs 300 scholarship each to the muslim girls. i dont see a reason why as you have cited that extra Rs 300 given to a muslim girl, while free books and copies are given equally to other kids is a question of muslim appeasement. can you explain why have you used a word like appeasement to describe an initiative that helps most discriminated ones? how many hindu families are willing to say that dont give them Rs 300 -- wouldn't rather say give us Rs 300 as well? anupam On 5/18/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > > Dear Malik jee > > If what you have stated is true (meaning that a Hindu poor can't get that > additional amount but a Muslim rich can), then I must say it is wrong; > whether it can be termed appeasement or not in my own definition I would > have to figure out. I believe that appeasement is pleasing for the sake of > pleasing. It could be appeasement if this amount is being provided but no > proper education is being given in these schools (I presume these are govt. > schools and not private schools. Please do correct me if I am wrong)) > > However, I would be very happy if you can provide me with the following > details: > > A) Is this scheme known by some name, which I can read and get information > about in net? Can you provide me some links to this about which I can read > more into? > > B) Are there any reasons based on which this has been justified? > > C) Are there specific areas in which this is being implemented? Or are > there > some special areas where it is being implemented? > > Ultimately, each scheme must be checked in its context to find out whether > it indeed is a case of appeasement or it's a case of helping people. Hence, > I need to get more information about this. > > What's more, since the amount is being given to Muslim girls, one can > certainly understand that being a patriarchial society, with any > deterioration in law and order or with any chance for men to portray their > authority, women are the first victims and girls are therefore denied the > chance to be educated on this logic. May be the govt thought that since the > insecurity among Muslims is greater and therefore they may not send their > girls at all to be educated, this idea was hit upon. So again, one has to > look at the logic being given by the Delhi govt. for this. > > So one must look at the rationale of this. If it is meant for economic > reasons, then it could be appeasement. If it is meant for security reasons, > then it can't be appeasement; what can be done is to suggest alternatives > so > that all girls are given incentives to be taught. For example, if the NREGA > and the RTI can be brought, why not introduce the Ladli Laxmi Yojana that > Advani was talking about in his campaign. (Introduced in MP, as soon as a > girl is born, a bank account is opened in her name and a certain amount is > added monthly in her account. At the age of 18, this money sums up to Rs. > 1,00,000/- and the girl can take it out. This can be introduced for BPL > families or even APL families upto a certain income limit.) > > But as I said, if what you say is true, yes, it can be a case of > appeasement, if the actual education being provided is useless and the only > benefit for Muslims is to get Rs. 300/-. > > Also one more thing. Please see the reasons and rationale for doing things; > don't construe each and every act as act of appeasement. > > Regards > > Rakesh > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> ________________________________ Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter now! Bollywood news, movie reviews, film trailers and more! Go to http://in.movies.yahoo.com/ From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Thu May 21 12:11:48 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 12:11:48 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Election Forecast In-Reply-To: References: <101411.44743.qm@web94709.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <507436.42103.qm@web94709.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Is the strong unity of sikhs and Muslims the reason for distrust? Communal behaviour can at times be hazardous and has to be permiable to outside for more trust(crimes against women or people are less reported or recognised, leave alone approach outside world), there are good aspects of brother feelings. This is visible if there is positive and humane treatment meeted out to everybody. As regards suspicion many classes of Hindus too stay together and some used to claim at a certain peiod of time that they were not Hindus at all! Let us chalk a long list of such Marwaris, and other sects which give preference to own clan, Biharis, Baniyas, Brmhins etc and then the components and limits of exclusion. It would be fun, and then we can make more precise attacks, though generalised and made of suspicion alone, but more effective! They raped our sisters. We raped theirs as well! ________________________________ From: Rakesh Iyer To: Vedavati Jogi Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Wednesday, 20 May, 2009 10:36:27 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Election Forecast Dear Vedavati You are already so scared of Muslims....I wonder what your plight would be if you were passing through the old areas of any city which are generally Muslim dominated. If you are already so afraid of Muslims (who are also Indians), I sometimes feel what would a 'nationalist' do for the country if sent to the border. Probably you would run away seeing Pakistani soldiers as they too would be mainly Muslims. This mistrust is not going to help you sir, nor is it going to help India, even from the nationalist perspective. Therefore, for India's sake (if not yours), get rid of this disease called mistrust. Get well soon. Regards Rakesh _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Explore your hobbies and interests. Go to http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/ From rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com Thu May 21 13:13:29 2009 From: rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com (Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 13:13:29 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Election Forecast In-Reply-To: <507436.42103.qm@web94709.mail.in2.yahoo.com> References: <101411.44743.qm@web94709.mail.in2.yahoo.com> <507436.42103.qm@web94709.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7271ec560905210043i208211c9l74115ef5433ff982@mail.gmail.com> Rakesh jee, it is not the fear that is at work, but sad feeling that the hindu is divided lot, unable to even defend himself/herself if fanatism takes over by any other follower of faith.I surely think that you have not seen the effect of the such in places where the "minorities" are not even majority, but are in sufficient in numbers like Bhatkal in Karnataka, Kannur, Mallapuram in Kerala, where the percentage of minority is not 17 % but around 40 %, divided hindu society is in fear as divided hindu sees a theeya being attacked or a brahmin being attacked or a nair being attacked, not a hindu being attacked, rule of laws also take no steps as the police is scared to go into such ghettos as false cases of molestation, harassment of minority get immediate attention of all by "secular" media. When rule of laws is applied without fear or favour, none need to be having fear of united communities of faith, as they only make the society stronger, but the strength if used for mischief and avoidance of the course and process of laws , it is indeed sad. Society as such does not have faith in revenge, avenging the wrongsfor such acts of violence only breeds more violence and more revenge and misery, thus society lives in hope for better tomorrow, in good system of governance, but when judicial process is delayed, justice is taken over by mobs to deliver the justice as such mobs feel fit, which is unacceptable in civil society. Regards, Rajen. On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 12:11 PM, subhrodip sengupta < sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in> wrote: > Is the strong unity of sikhs and Muslims the reason for distrust? Communal > behaviour can at times be hazardous and has to be permiable to outside for > more trust(crimes against women or people are less reported or recognised, > leave alone approach outside world), there are good aspects of brother > feelings. This is visible if there is positive and humane treatment meeted > out to everybody. As regards suspicion many classes of Hindus too stay > together and some used to claim at a certain peiod of time that they were > not Hindus at all! Let us chalk a long list of such Marwaris, and other > sects which give preference to own clan, Biharis, Baniyas, Brmhins etc and > then the components and limits of exclusion. It would be fun, and then we > can make more precise attacks, though generalised and made of suspicion > alone, but more effective! They raped our sisters. We raped theirs as well! > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Rakesh Iyer > To: Vedavati Jogi > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Sent: Wednesday, 20 May, 2009 10:36:27 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Election Forecast > > Dear Vedavati > > You are already so scared of Muslims....I wonder what your plight would be > if you were passing through the old areas of any city which are generally > Muslim dominated. If you are already so afraid of Muslims (who are also > Indians), I sometimes feel what would a 'nationalist' do for the country if > sent to the border. Probably you would run away seeing Pakistani soldiers > as > they too would be mainly Muslims. > > This mistrust is not going to help you sir, nor is it going to help India, > even from the nationalist perspective. Therefore, for India's sake (if not > yours), get rid of this disease called mistrust. > > Get well soon. > > Regards > > Rakesh > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > Explore your hobbies and interests. Go to > http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- Rajen. From nc-agricowi at netcologne.de Wed May 20 12:58:21 2009 From: nc-agricowi at netcologne.de (netEX) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 09:28:21 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] =?iso-8859-1?q?=5BAnnouncements=5D_Call=3A_The_Best?= =?iso-8859-1?q?_of_FLash_on_the_Net?= Message-ID: <20090520092821.82A66FA6.140A4A43@192.168.0.3> extended deadline:30 June 2009 -------------------------------- Cinematheque - streaming media project environments http://cinema.nmartproject.net Call for entries \\ Flash & Thunder Flash as a medium and tool for artistic creations // Since the Internet became popular in the late 90'ies of 20th century, the software program "FLASH", once developed and prepared for the commercial market by Macromedia, and now owned by Adobe, represents a vector based developing environment which enables the creator to combine different media and develop vector based animations especially for the Internet. .swf data file extension became a standard for animations online and offline, and Flash video and its .flv file format stands for "videostreaming" on the net. As soon as the Internet started, artists captured it for artistic purposes, and the same is good for certain software used for the net, particularly Flash is predestined for developing artistic creations due to its intuitive use. It became one of the most popular software tools for the net, computer based animations and interactive applications like games. Flash based artworks entered media festivals, even festivals solely based on movies created in Flash are organised. After Cinematheque - streaming media environments - explored in 2007 the capabilities of "Quicktime" as an artistic medium in the comprehensive show \\Slowtime? Quicktime as an artistic medium// - its now the time to explore in 2009 the artistic potential of Flash in its own way in a big online show, as well. // Flash and Thunder Flash as a medium and tool for artistic creations \\ Cinematheque is looking for the best artistic Flash works created since 2000. Please find the regulations and entry form on http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=408 /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// Cinematheque - streaming media project environments http://cinema.nmartproject.net is a corporate part of [NewMediaArtProjectNetwork]:||cologne http://www.nmartproject.net - the experimental platform for art and new media from Cologne/Germany ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////// _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Thu May 21 13:13:04 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 13:13:04 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Help: A HINDU plight Message-ID: <839753.46384.qm@web94713.mail.in2.yahoo.com> At University of Delhi, there are Christian Colleges, Sikh Colleges and Hindu coleges. There is a Department of Buddhist studies as well. So far so good. I am not going into politics at a more advanced level and organisation and division within these communities, as irrelevant and not generally, leaving out special cases, which I have reckoned do exist,but more subtlely, not openly. I reckon there is a Muslim University around, but that does not bother me. Religion gives people values to live. These people are masses who do not go to Crore Funded Universities and do not spend a lot of time reading, writing and are certainly not the most competent, are naturally opaque and religion is their language a sense of piety. The symbolls affect the sub-conscience like tonic to the mind and body. I do not have any problem with practice of any religion per-se, unless that hurts  me. Bur what hurts is relative. Noboody Dares to say in Stephen's morning Prayer I wanna perform Hindu rites, leave alone challenge the doctrines of the Church. No body even wants a Hindu administrator. At Khalsa, the Akali Board is Supremo, no challenges to indiscriminate using of religious symbolls on administrative orders etc. These are miniroty institutions indeed. As long as good tasks are done, I do not object to any of these. There are Restricted Holidays, why can there be no grants on individual basis, subject to some maximum. At west bengal, a Central Govt order banned giving any money by government institutions to community and cultural identity which pertained to some religion. The Durga Puja feast became more expensive to all of us Hindus Muslims,Sikhs and Buddhists who participated in the feast. Thats it, the end of the problem. At the same time a state govt aided minority intitution, St Xavier's school raised huge funds for errection of an expensive Mother Mary statue, by a grand Waterfall and a new catholic church. Sponsores here no catholic board, but Loacal Hindu majority guardians who reeled under continuous pressure and intimidation. Still I did not go on a rampage. Today, at my institution there is no temple. It is illegal, nor do I demand a seperate hall of prayer or dispute to divide the followers or may be simply because there is no space already in the parking lot! A small  place for Hanumanji, Shivji, Ramachandra, Manasa, Kali, and a holy Banyan tree. There are no barrs even shoe-opening is optional unless one touches the shrine. At some places bricks denote some area. I oppose it as Saffron millitancy. That is true. At the same time some people are trying to bring down this place as well. Before exams and after long hard days, it provided us some solace. I never visited any other local temple. A few people are wanting to bring down these shrines. It makes the place of worship, read institution loose it's piety they say. I Urge them to build there own shrines, no-holds-barred. We too do not restrct rites to a brahmin. They Urge us to build a common Hall of prayer.  This place has played a pivotal role to our culture. Our pious seniours introduced us. We get unofficial here and come with purity. May be a secular hall shall be more for the educated, articulate people, and may be the chain of command hold intact. People would not certainly discuss religion there, nor culture. Silence would be the rule! Definitely, we would loose. Secular Government is on their side. IT recognises all trusts but not Hindu dieties. We can not protect our place of worship, nor our culture We are Hindus. Others can. Still I hold my flag against Saffron millitancy and Pagri Race! Strange, perhaps, strange indeed. Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with Yahoo! India Travel http://in.travel.yahoo.com/ From rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com Thu May 21 13:23:13 2009 From: rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com (Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 13:23:13 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Giving money to any individual student based on faith, caste, is it correct in rule of laws, in democra Message-ID: <7271ec560905210053m6a8839cdi9f5fd84fe0cd406e@mail.gmail.com> Dear All, why should be any funds given to some students, can it not be given to all students without discrimination on the basis of gender and faith, the only criteria being the need for such assistance.? Regards. -- Rajen. From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Thu May 21 13:33:45 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 13:33:45 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Giving money to any individual student based on faith, caste, is it correct in rule of laws, in democra In-Reply-To: <7271ec560905210053m6a8839cdi9f5fd84fe0cd406e@mail.gmail.com> References: <7271ec560905210053m6a8839cdi9f5fd84fe0cd406e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Rajen Funds are given with the need of ensuring that students actually come to school. And since there are some communities in particular where students don't go to school due to large fees or other economic problems or social barriers, this is one way of ensuring that students from those communities come. Similar is the case for females as well. Don't mix communalism with social demographics. Understand the issue properly. That is my only request to you. Regards Rakesh From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Thu May 21 13:34:47 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 13:34:47 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Giving money to any individual student based on faith, caste, is it correct in rule of laws, in democra In-Reply-To: References: <7271ec560905210053m6a8839cdi9f5fd84fe0cd406e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Rajen One clarification. I said 'don't mix communalism with social demographics'. It should actually be 'don't mix communalism with solutions to social problems'. In other words, don't look at ghosts which don't exist. From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Thu May 21 13:40:44 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 01:10:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Help: A HINDU plight Message-ID: <300101.54203.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com>   Not strange at all. Not at all --- On Thu, 5/21/09, subhrodip sengupta wrote: From: subhrodip sengupta Subject: [Reader-list] Help: A HINDU plight To: "Readers list Yousuf Sarai." Date: Thursday, May 21, 2009, 1:13 PM At University of Delhi, there are Christian Colleges, Sikh Colleges and Hindu coleges. There is a Department of Buddhist studies as well. So far so good. I am not going into politics at a more advanced level and organisation and division within these communities, as irrelevant and not generally, leaving out special cases, which I have reckoned do exist,but more subtlely, not openly. I reckon there is a Muslim University around, but that does not bother me. Religion gives people values to live. These people are masses who do not go to Crore Funded Universities and do not spend a lot of time reading, writing and are certainly not the most competent, are naturally opaque and religion is their language a sense of piety. The symbolls affect the sub-conscience like tonic to the mind and body. I do not have any problem with practice of any religion per-se, unless that hurts  me. Bur what hurts is relative. Noboody Dares to say in Stephen's morning Prayer I wanna perform Hindu rites, leave alone challenge the doctrines of the Church. No body even wants a Hindu administrator. At Khalsa, the Akali Board is Supremo, no challenges to indiscriminate using of religious symbolls on administrative orders etc. These are miniroty institutions indeed. As long as good tasks are done, I do not object to any of these. There are Restricted Holidays, why can there be no grants on individual basis, subject to some maximum. At west bengal, a Central Govt order banned giving any money by government institutions to community and cultural identity which pertained to some religion. The Durga Puja feast became more expensive to all of us Hindus Muslims,Sikhs and Buddhists who participated in the feast. Thats it, the end of the problem. At the same time a state govt aided minority intitution, St Xavier's school raised huge funds for errection of an expensive Mother Mary statue, by a grand Waterfall and a new catholic church. Sponsores here no catholic board, but Loacal Hindu majority guardians who reeled under continuous pressure and intimidation. Still I did not go on a rampage. Today, at my institution there is no temple. It is illegal, nor do I demand a seperate hall of prayer or dispute to divide the followers or may be simply because there is no space already in the parking lot! A small  place for Hanumanji, Shivji, Ramachandra, Manasa, Kali, and a holy Banyan tree. There are no barrs even shoe-opening is optional unless one touches the shrine. At some places bricks denote some area. I oppose it as Saffron millitancy. That is true. At the same time some people are trying to bring down this place as well. Before exams and after long hard days, it provided us some solace. I never visited any other local temple. A few people are wanting to bring down these shrines. It makes the place of worship, read institution loose it's piety they say. I Urge them to build there own shrines, no-holds-barred. We too do not restrct rites to a brahmin. They Urge us to build a common Hall of prayer.  This place has played a pivotal role to our culture. Our pious seniours introduced us. We get unofficial here and come with purity. May be a secular hall shall be more for the educated, articulate people, and may be the chain of command hold intact. People would not certainly discuss religion there, nor culture. Silence would be the rule! Definitely, we would loose. Secular Government is on their side. IT recognises all trusts but not Hindu dieties. We can not protect our place of worship, nor our culture We are Hindus. Others can. Still I hold my flag against Saffron millitancy and Pagri Race! Strange, perhaps, strange indeed.       Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with Yahoo! India Travel http://in.travel.yahoo.com/ _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From c.anupam at gmail.com Thu May 21 13:46:23 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 13:46:23 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Election Forecast In-Reply-To: <7271ec560905210043i208211c9l74115ef5433ff982@mail.gmail.com> References: <101411.44743.qm@web94709.mail.in2.yahoo.com> <507436.42103.qm@web94709.mail.in2.yahoo.com> <7271ec560905210043i208211c9l74115ef5433ff982@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00905210116o1aaea529m3c33954e79bbdec9@mail.gmail.com> Dear Rajendra, I think you live in constant paranoia which makes you say stuff like this. But please do not impose it on other readers here at least. Why do hindus have to get united to battle communalism? would that not be a contradiction? We already have an existing set to contain such evils such as fanactism. in this united stand, there are people who are working towards it from all the faiths, castes and colours. by simply getting on to this minority-majority discourse, you are not solving this issue. you are making all of us uncomfortable. i didnt even want to say anything to vedavati jee for posting such a ridiculous comment about hindus being united. my religion is personal and i want it that way. you guys have really gone overboard. india is a multi-racial, multi-ethnic country. you can keep problematising, you will only find more discontent. its a prayer that please stop this hindu-muslim thing on this reader's list. please be more objective in our approach. thanks anupam On 5/21/09, Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi wrote: > > Rakesh jee, > it is not the fear that is at work, but sad feeling that the hindu is > divided lot, unable to even defend himself/herself if fanatism takes over > by > any other follower of faith.I surely think that you have not seen the > effect > of the such in places where the "minorities" are not even majority, but are > in sufficient in numbers like Bhatkal in Karnataka, Kannur, Mallapuram in > Kerala, where the percentage of minority is not 17 % but around 40 %, > divided hindu society is in fear as divided hindu sees a theeya being > attacked or a brahmin being attacked or a nair being attacked, not a hindu > being attacked, rule of laws also take no steps as the police is scared to > go into such ghettos as false cases of molestation, harassment of minority > get immediate attention of all by "secular" media. > > When rule of laws is applied without fear or favour, none need to be > having fear of united communities of faith, as they only make the society > stronger, but the strength if used for mischief and avoidance of the course > and process of laws , it is indeed sad. Society as such does not have > faith > in revenge, avenging the wrongsfor such acts of violence only breeds more > violence and more revenge and misery, thus society lives in hope for better > tomorrow, in good system of governance, but when judicial process is > delayed, justice is taken over by mobs to deliver the justice as such mobs > feel fit, which is unacceptable in civil society. > > Regards, > > Rajen. > > On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 12:11 PM, subhrodip sengupta < > sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in> wrote: > > > Is the strong unity of sikhs and Muslims the reason for distrust? > Communal > > behaviour can at times be hazardous and has to be permiable to outside > for > > more trust(crimes against women or people are less reported or > recognised, > > leave alone approach outside world), there are good aspects of brother > > feelings. This is visible if there is positive and humane treatment > meeted > > out to everybody. As regards suspicion many classes of Hindus too stay > > together and some used to claim at a certain peiod of time that they were > > not Hindus at all! Let us chalk a long list of such Marwaris, and other > > sects which give preference to own clan, Biharis, Baniyas, Brmhins etc > and > > then the components and limits of exclusion. It would be fun, and then we > > can make more precise attacks, though generalised and made of suspicion > > alone, but more effective! They raped our sisters. We raped theirs as > well! > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Rakesh Iyer > > To: Vedavati Jogi > > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > Sent: Wednesday, 20 May, 2009 10:36:27 AM > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Election Forecast > > > > Dear Vedavati > > > > You are already so scared of Muslims....I wonder what your plight would > be > > if you were passing through the old areas of any city which are generally > > Muslim dominated. If you are already so afraid of Muslims (who are also > > Indians), I sometimes feel what would a 'nationalist' do for the country > if > > sent to the border. Probably you would run away seeing Pakistani soldiers > > as > > they too would be mainly Muslims. > > > > This mistrust is not going to help you sir, nor is it going to help > India, > > even from the nationalist perspective. Therefore, for India's sake (if > not > > yours), get rid of this disease called mistrust. > > > > Get well soon. > > > > Regards > > > > Rakesh > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > > Explore your hobbies and interests. Go to > > http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/ > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > -- > Rajen. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Thu May 21 13:52:58 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 13:52:58 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Election Forecast In-Reply-To: <7271ec560905210043i208211c9l74115ef5433ff982@mail.gmail.com> References: <101411.44743.qm@web94709.mail.in2.yahoo.com> <507436.42103.qm@web94709.mail.in2.yahoo.com> <7271ec560905210043i208211c9l74115ef5433ff982@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Rajen jee I am surprised that all this comes from you who is a well educated grown-up. * *When I see people like you making such statements, my only fear is that Bin Laden and his men (as well as the RSS) are succeeding in ensuring that people of my country are getting divided. I agree that Muslims whom I have met are somewhat conservative about their religion, but I can't accept that they are a threat to our society or to our nation at all or to the human race at all. And I must say that instead of having just Muslim people working under you for your economic purpose, you would better go and learn about their religion as well. May help you somewhat in this process as well. And one more thing Sir. If a Nair is attacked, you may say a Hindu is being attacked. A Muslim may say a Hindu is being attacked. But when God sees it, he will say a human being is being attacked. And I feel the same way that a human being is being attacked. And for the action of a few bad Muslims, I don't think the entire community should be punished. And if the community is succumbing to communal fervour, then we should point it out in the media and then get that community talking with others to let this fervor go away. I still feel this disease is slowly and slowly consuming more people. You have got this disease, then your family would have it, your children would have it, then their children would have it. It's a disease which gets transmitted from parents to children. And such disease transfer would lead to problems even from a nationalist perspective. (and this is for all those who are having Hindu-Muslim problems) Therefore, for the nation's sake, if not yours (since you are nationalist and put nation before yourself), please get well soon. Regards Rakesh From c.anupam at gmail.com Thu May 21 13:59:13 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 13:59:13 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Giving money to any individual student based on faith, caste, is it correct in rule of laws, in democra In-Reply-To: References: <7271ec560905210053m6a8839cdi9f5fd84fe0cd406e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00905210129v5ce84660u88b407248bb4ef29@mail.gmail.com> Dear Rajen, social issues have to tackled inclusively. do you even know what inclusiveness means? im sure you dont. i am sorry but i will state it now. your "dont mix communalism with solutions to social problems" idea is pseudo, when you in another post you go to say that with the growth of religious fundamentalism, hindus must be united. let me very clear, that with postings of this sort no solution will come out it. identity politics is narrower, shallower and mostly stupid as doesnt consider people as individuals but merely as groups with common traits. certainly, it helps in administration, but it defecates on the social fabric of our society and our aspirations as a nation. -anupam On 5/21/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > > Dear Rajen > > One clarification. I said 'don't mix communalism with social demographics'. > It should actually be 'don't mix communalism with solutions to social > problems'. In other words, don't look at ghosts which don't exist. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From c.anupam at gmail.com Thu May 21 14:00:13 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 14:00:13 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Giving money to any individual student based on faith, caste, is it correct in rule of laws, in democra In-Reply-To: <341380d00905210129v5ce84660u88b407248bb4ef29@mail.gmail.com> References: <7271ec560905210053m6a8839cdi9f5fd84fe0cd406e@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00905210129v5ce84660u88b407248bb4ef29@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00905210130y41af5a6t3c15d8035640b58a@mail.gmail.com> im sorry i just realised that this comment was meant for rakesh, not rajen...apologies On 5/21/09, anupam chakravartty wrote: > > Dear Rajen, > > social issues have to tackled inclusively. do you even know what > inclusiveness means? im sure you dont. i am sorry but i will state it now. > your "dont mix communalism with solutions to social problems" idea is > pseudo, when you in another post you go to say that with the growth of > religious fundamentalism, hindus must be united. > > let me very clear, that with postings of this sort no solution will come > out it. identity politics is narrower, shallower and mostly stupid as doesnt > consider people as individuals but merely as groups with common traits. > certainly, it helps in administration, but it defecates on the social fabric > of our society and our aspirations as a nation. > > -anupam > > On 5/21/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: >> >> Dear Rajen >> >> One clarification. I said 'don't mix communalism with social >> demographics'. >> It should actually be 'don't mix communalism with solutions to social >> problems'. In other words, don't look at ghosts which don't exist. >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Thu May 21 14:10:35 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 14:10:35 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Giving money to any individual student based on faith, caste, is it correct in rule of laws, in democra In-Reply-To: <341380d00905210130y41af5a6t3c15d8035640b58a@mail.gmail.com> References: <7271ec560905210053m6a8839cdi9f5fd84fe0cd406e@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00905210129v5ce84660u88b407248bb4ef29@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00905210130y41af5a6t3c15d8035640b58a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Anupam jee I am surprised that you have attributed this comment to me: 'Hindus must be united to tackle growth of religious fundamentalism'. I have never said that ever to the best of my knowledge. The only thing I have ever said that human-to-human bond must strengthen, and not Hindu-to-Hindu bond. Anyways, I don't look at issues like Hindu and Muslim. Secondly, inclusiveness for me simply means including all sections of the society. And anyways, I have never asked for your surety regarding my understanding of something. Thirdly identity politics is taking place not because of me or you, but because of parties and the way they are behaving, as well as the fact that now individuals want to be secure enough. In other words, security is the main concern, be it for Muslim post 9/11 or Dalits in our villages (and the reluctance of our political parties to stop this). And it's not my attitude, but the attitude of those who kill in the name of identity which defecates on our social fabric. And last but not the least, when any of us posts, it hardly matters, for after all the nation is not getting any benefit at all. But there is always one hope, that as individuals we can get to know each other's views, to understand for ourselves what would be right and what not, and thereby learn our lessons on our own. Yes, it won't greatly benefit our nation, but it would certainly help us in our education, and may be we can transfer this education onto others who will benefit from it. So therefore, I would say one thing. If you think nobody benefits, stop posting. Regards Rakesh From c.anupam at gmail.com Thu May 21 14:14:09 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 14:14:09 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Giving money to any individual student based on faith, caste, is it correct in rule of laws, in democra In-Reply-To: References: <7271ec560905210053m6a8839cdi9f5fd84fe0cd406e@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00905210129v5ce84660u88b407248bb4ef29@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00905210130y41af5a6t3c15d8035640b58a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00905210144x29c67551l2193cc40cb7bdd71@mail.gmail.com> Dear Rakesh, by mistake i assumed that this comment was written by rajen...i apologise -anupam On 5/21/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > > Dear Anupam jee > > I am surprised that you have attributed this comment to me: 'Hindus must be > united to tackle growth of religious fundamentalism'. I have never said that > ever to the best of my knowledge. The only thing I have ever said that > human-to-human bond must strengthen, and not Hindu-to-Hindu bond. Anyways, I > don't look at issues like Hindu and Muslim. > > Secondly, inclusiveness for me simply means including all sections of the > society. And anyways, I have never asked for your surety regarding my > understanding of something. > > Thirdly identity politics is taking place not because of me or you, but > because of parties and the way they are behaving, as well as the fact that > now individuals want to be secure enough. In other words, security is the > main concern, be it for Muslim post 9/11 or Dalits in our villages (and the > reluctance of our political parties to stop this). And it's not my attitude, > but the attitude of those who kill in the name of identity which defecates > on our social fabric. > > And last but not the least, when any of us posts, it hardly matters, for > after all the nation is not getting any benefit at all. But there is always > one hope, that as individuals we can get to know each other's views, to > understand for ourselves what would be right and what not, and thereby learn > our lessons on our own. Yes, it won't greatly benefit our nation, but it > would certainly help us in our education, and may be we can transfer this > education onto others who will benefit from it. > > So therefore, I would say one thing. If you think nobody benefits, stop > posting. > > Regards > > Rakesh > From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Thu May 21 15:54:36 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 15:54:36 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] The Hindu plight! In-Reply-To: <7271ec560905210043i208211c9l74115ef5433ff982@mail.gmail.com> References: <101411.44743.qm@web94709.mail.in2.yahoo.com> <507436.42103.qm@web94709.mail.in2.yahoo.com> <7271ec560905210043i208211c9l74115ef5433ff982@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <590904.93911.qm@web94707.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Dear Rakeshji,               I have a bad hait of interruption. If Vedavatiji has some Muslim trauma, do you have a Hindu trauma? Nay religious trauma? Is Bin Laden or Sri Ram Sene Chief religious? How many Hindus or Muslims support them? Do you not see the potent idea of community? In lesser developed world, communities are closed, vWerifyable and strong. I do not like closed, for any carnal value. But this idea of being something else than nobody. In a society, most people do not hold high stature, the 'high' says it all, they can not pocket Beurocrats. Lousy, weak and slow they move on! To them a community is precious. For information, support a community is precious, for believers Faith is precious. Many Hindus like me have sidelined seperatists. I have seen muslims doing so. A religion can bring close only those who believe or trust it! We are not seperatists, and we do not believe in either mosque, Akali Takht or Temple raaj! Isn't all this enough? Now can we be left to our privacy and build a community, around temple, around social service? You know bringing everything under one regime appeals to only the rulers and paid soldiers! Many of these peple at ground level have varied emotions and thoughts attached to our place of worship not on religious seggregationary lines, and if we do not know our verses well not certainly on idealogies. Not Saffron millatants, this is just one community, a strong community which we depend upon! Let us assoscite. We do not nowadays even attack aethists,let us survive!It would not attack your regime,so no need to overstrech secularism! By the way if Pak collapses, & we get friendly with most of our neighbours, Nation Chauvinism turned into itself will suffocate masses. Indeed we are Indians, and Hindu or Muslim or Christian or Satan. Unless we get into each other, doesn't Nationality and religion imply differrrent attributes, limited to extent. Or do we do sacrreligious things in the name of the Nation, like things we have heard about the BSF in bangladesh border? Conflict arises when irrationality and thus incompatibilty develops somewhere, in todays world where is it? There lies the answer! Regards, Subhrodip. ________________________________ From: Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi To: subhrodip sengupta Cc: Readers list Yousuf Sarai. Sent: Thursday, 21 May, 2009 1:13:29 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Election Forecast Rakesh jee,    it is not the fear that is at work, but sad feeling that the hindu is divided lot, unable to even defend himself/herself if fanatism takes over by any other follower of faith.I surely think that you have not seen the effect of the such in places where the "minorities" are not even majority, but are in sufficient in numbers like Bhatkal in Karnataka, Kannur, Mallapuram in Kerala, where the percentage of minority is not 17 % but around 40 %, divided hindu society is in fear as divided hindu sees a theeya being attacked or a brahmin being attacked or a nair being attacked, not a hindu being attacked, rule of laws also take no steps as the police is scared to go into such ghettos as false cases of molestation, harassment of minority get immediate attention of all by "secular" media.    When rule of laws is applied without fear or favour, none need to be having fear of united communities of faith, as they only make the society stronger, but the strength if used for mischief and avoidance of the course and process of  laws , it is indeed sad. Society as such does not have faith in revenge, avenging the wrongsfor such acts of violence only breeds more violence and more revenge and misery, thus society lives in hope for better tomorrow, in good system of governance, but when judicial process is delayed,  justice is taken over by mobs to deliver the justice as such mobs feel fit, which is unacceptable in civil society. Regards, Rajen. On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 12:11 PM, subhrodip sengupta wrote: Is the strong unity of sikhs and Muslims the reason for distrust? Communal behaviour can at times be hazardous and has to be permiable to outside for more trust(crimes against women or people are less reported or recognised, leave alone approach outside world), there are good aspects of brother feelings. This is visible if there is positive and humane treatment meeted out to everybody. As regards suspicion many classes of Hindus too stay together and some used to claim at a certain peiod of time that they were not Hindus at all! Let us chalk a long list of such Marwaris, and other sects which give preference to own clan, Biharis, Baniyas, Brmhins etc and then the components and limits of exclusion. It would be fun, and then we can make more precise attacks, though generalised and made of suspicion alone, but more effective! They raped our sisters. We raped theirs as well! ________________________________ From: Rakesh Iyer To: Vedavati Jogi Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Wednesday, 20 May, 2009 10:36:27 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Election Forecast Dear Vedavati You are already so scared of Muslims....I wonder what your plight would be if you were passing through the old areas of any city which are generally Muslim dominated. If you are already so afraid of Muslims (who are also Indians), I sometimes feel what would a 'nationalist' do for the country if sent to the border. Probably you would run away seeing Pakistani soldiers as they too would be mainly Muslims. This mistrust is not going to help you sir, nor is it going to help India, even from the nationalist perspective. Therefore, for India's sake (if not yours), get rid of this disease called mistrust. Get well soon. Regards Rakesh _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive:      Explore your hobbies and interests. Go to http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/ _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: -- Rajen. Explore your hobbies and interests. Go to http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/ From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Thu May 21 16:05:54 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 03:35:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] (KUWAIT) "Women's election victory attracts crop of headlines" Message-ID: <458475.32184.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> "Women's election victory attracts crop of headlines" Published Date: May 18, 2009   LONDON: Leading British newspaper The Independent yesterday welcomed female candidates' success in Saturday's elections, after four of them won parliamentary seats, becoming the nation's first ever females to be elected to the Kuwaiti parliament. The broadsheet described this development as a "resounding victory" in a GGC state, where the legislature has been men-only for almost half a century. Women in Kuwait gained the right to vote and run for office in 2005 but failed in two previous elections to win seats in the 50-member parliament. Official results from Saturday's vote were read out by judges on TV yesterday, it noted. Kuwait, "one of the few democracies in the Gulf, has led the region in giving its people political rights", the Independent said. One of the women elected, Massouma Al-Mubarak, was also the country's first female Cabinet minister, the article continued. The other female winners were women's rights activist Rola Dashti, education professor Salwa Al-Jassar and philosophy professor Aseel al-Awadhi. Voters casting ballots in Saturday's polls said they were tired of years of clashes between lawmakers and Cabinet members, the newspaper explained. Those clashes have sparked political crises that led to three elections and five Cabinets in three years, it said. Moreover, several Arab and international mass media and news agencies have highlighted Kuwait's 2009 parliamentary elections and Kuwaiti women's historic victory. They hailed the women's success as a landmark event that came only four years since Kuwaiti women were first given the right to vote and contest elections. The Voice of America (VOA) said that Kuwaiti women had won parliamentary se ats for the first time in Kuwait's history, and noted that Kuwaiti women only obtained their political rights in 2005. Deutsche Presse Agentur (DPA), meanwhile, said that Kuwait had elected its first female lawmakers in a move seen as a historic success for women in the Gulf state's male-dominated parliament. Massouma Al-Mubarak, who made history by becoming the first Kuwaiti female minister in 2005, led all the candidates with a large margin in her district. The other women that were elected are liberal Aseel Al-Awadhi, women's rights activists Rola Dashti, and independent university lecturer Salwa Al-Jassar, the DPA said. Agence France-Presse (AFP) reported that Sunni Islamists lost ground in Kuwait's general election, but women made history by bagging four seats, their first ever win in the 50-member parliam ent. It said four women candidates made history by winning the first seats in Kuwaiti parliament, with one of them coming on top of the 10 winners from her district. Six women were among 210 candidates who stood in the election, the third since 2006, it added. Reuters news agency also reported that Kuwaiti women won four seats in Kuwait's parliament, the first to do so in the Gulf Arab state's history, and reported a blow to Islamists who have long dominated the assembly. The agency also carried short synopses on the four women winners. The BBC said Kuwait elected its first female MPs following the oil-rich country's third general election in three years. It noted the victory of candidates Aseel Al-Awadhi and Rola Dashti in the third district. Qatar-based Al-Jazeera said Kuwaiti women achieved a victory in the country's parliamentary polls adding liberal and Shiite candidates had the lead, with Islamists losing ground. Many news outlets covering the elections in Kuwait also posted background material on women's political rights, the constitution and parliament dissolution history and regulation. - KUNA   http://www.kuwaittimes.net/read_news.php?newsid=NjY1MTEyNzY5     From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Thu May 21 16:09:38 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 03:39:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] (KUWAIT) "Female MPs celebrate success with smiles, tears" Message-ID: <798996.68513.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> " "Mark this day! We entered the Parliament by winning elections and not through a quota system" she said     "Female MPs celebrate success with smiles, tears" Published Date: May 21, 2009 By Nisreen Zahreddine, Staff writer   KUWAIT: Young and middle-aged women gathered at the Women's Cultural and Social Society headquarters on Tuesday evening. It was time to celebrate Kuwaiti women's historic achievement, with four women elected to represent Kuwaiti citizens in the National Assembly. Women gathered at the hall, looking visibly excited. A few men could be spotted among the crowd. Many of the women present were veterans in the women's rights movement and continued to fight for equality in the conservative Arab society. MP Aseel Al-Awadhi was the first to enter the hall, and greeted women who showered their love and support and congratulated her on her success at the electoral poll. Women will now practice their constitutional rights as productive members of society. When it was MP Maasouma Al-Mubarak's turn to enter the hall, she was surrounded by a group of media personnel. She reiterated that no women's bloc will be formed in the Assembly and that MPs were ready to cooperate with their male colleagues without any reservation. She expressed hope that more women enter active politics. Al-Mubarak affirmed that she would participate in the government and work toward serving her people. Zikra Al-Rasheedi, who contested from the fourth constituency who finished 15th in the poll race expressed support to her fellow successful candidates. She said that she was more than satisfied with the results she achieved. "In such a tribal constituency, I cannot expect anything more than this. I am happy and I thank God that we have changed the equation and broken tradition." Although Rasheedi lost out narrowly in this year's election battle, failing to win a seat, her picture was hung alongside her pee rs. MP Salwa Al-Jassar made a quiet entry into the hall. Speaking to the media she said that 16th May should be marked as Women's National Day. "Mark this day! We entered the Parliament by winning elections and not through a quota system" she said. The last to attend was MP Rola Dashti, who waved at attendees and joined in with the celebrations. The four MPs them stepped onto the specially decorated stage along with candidate Zikra Al-Rasheedi and Ministers Nouriya Al-Sabeeh and Moudhi Al-Homoud then posed for photographs. The women celebrated their epoch- making accomplishment with smiles and tears of joy, marking the beginning of a new chapter in Kuwait's democracy.   http://www.kuwaittimes.net/read_news.php?newsid=NzY4ODYzNzIw       From yasir.media at gmail.com Thu May 21 16:13:38 2009 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?windows-1256?B?eWFzaXIgfu3HINPR?=) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 15:43:38 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Taliban Hypocracy = Pakistan Hypocracy In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70905200432j4525eb58pda5e125e0262e830@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70905200432j4525eb58pda5e125e0262e830@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5af37bb0905210343p2753b96u9c139f4b59dc216e@mail.gmail.com> people's party filth. there is appetite for this fodder. http://letusbuildpakistan.blogspot.com/2009/01/critical-supporters-of-peoples-party.html best On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 4:32 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > > http://letusbuildpakistan.blogspot.com/2009/05/muslim-khans-is-pakistans-national.html > > Muslim Khan, the spokesman of Pakistani Taliban, has won unprecedented > notoriety for justifying beheading, flogging, and digging up and > hanging the dead. He has a personal stake in propagating the kind of > education Muslims of the world must have. Or must not have. He has > justified the bombing of schools on many pretexts, but one stands out: > Muslims must not get “English” education. By which Muslim Khan means > that any school which has anything to do with the English language > must be demolished. The Taliban have so far demolished hundreds of > schools in the name of cleansing education of the Western-infidel > influence. Pakistan’s Islamo-fascist Urdu media has always given him a > lot of coverage making him a national folk hero who has stood up to > the United States and her Pakistani lackeys. > > At long last, someone found out that Muslim Khan’s own son is a > graduate student at the University of Peshawar and the medium of his > education is English. When the question about his son was tossed to > him, the great Muslim Khan was philosophical: “My son is disobedient!” > The filed closed. No more questions please. > > Judging by Muslim Khan’s own Islamist criteria, his prodigal son is a > double whammy: getting English education and being a disobedient son. > Can there be a greater sin than filial disobedience which implies > filial ingratitude? Plus the infidel English education. And yet Muslim > Khan will not slaughter his son nor let any of his fellow Taliban do > it. But he will flog and behead anyone else’s boys and girls for > countless petty acts like a girl’s leaving home without being > chaperoned by an adult male. > > This is not just Taliban hypocrisy; this is typical Pakistani hypocrisy. > > I have studied, visited, and lived in a number of countries. I have > always tried to understand how Pakistani expatriate communities live. > I can report a lot of incidents, but I will narrate only of which I > have had the very first hand experience. > > In a Muslim country there was a Pakistani who in the mid 1990s who > terrorized not just the Pakistanis, but anyone he could get hold of. > All in the name of Islam. Mullah F was his name, and he was a zealous > member of the Tablighi Jamaat, and saw to it that he conveyed the > message of Islam to as many non-Muslims and non-Wahabis as he could. > One evening, as my wife and I were being treated to a diner by a Sri > Lankan friend and his wife, Mullah F came over with the two religious > police officers. Without greeting any one of us, Mullah F told my > friend’s wife that she had been living in sin because she was a Muslim > and her husband a Buddhist. The husband and wife were too scared and > my wife and I were too dumbfounded to say anything. After Mullah F and > the religious officers left, my friend who had taught mathematics in a > Karachi school for a few years exhausted his repertoire of > four-letters words for the unwelcome guests. Soon fearing the mighty > hand of the possible Islamist inquisition, the couple left the country > for good and settled in Auckland where they live a happy life with > their three children. > > Mullah F had many rabbits up his. His favorite pastime, apart from > proselytizing, was to embarrass and insult Pakistanis who had acquired > permanent residence in Australia, Canada, and New Zealand. In > Pakistani gatherings he would tell in a loud voice that those who had > obtained permanent residence in “those infidel countries” would have > their daughters turned into prostitutes and sons into pimps who would > end up marrying the infidels. He would also say that in an infidel > country like Australia or Canada, people lived haram lives. > > To his credit, Mullah F’s made his wife and three daughters live in > complete purdah, and you could not even see his wife’s hands which had > gloves on all the time. And life went on till my friend Mr. Shah came > over one evening and asked me to accompany him. He wanted to see > Mullah F. I protested. I had never even spoken to him and vice versa. > Besides, I wanted to stay away from the filthy mouth of the man. But > Mr. Shah had breaking news: Mullah F had not only obtained Australian > permanent residence, he had just returned from Darwin in Australia > after settling his family there. Now, Mr. Shah had been one of the > victims of Mullah F at a Pakistani function. The report from some > Pakistan families in Darwin was that Mullah F’s wife and daughters had > got rid of purdah and were living more liberally than any other > Pakistani family. > > Contrary to my fears, Mullah F was very kind and graceful as he opened > the door. Before Mr. Shah could get even with Mullah F (he had > predicted something ominous about Mr. Shah’s daughters in Toronto), > this is what happened: “I am sure you have come to congratulate me > over my permanent residence in Australia. It is Allah’s act. Allah > must have wanted to use me and my family to something noble in > Australia. Who can question when He gives you something. I only hope I > succeed in the task that Allah will assign me and my family in > Australia and I request you two brothers to pray for my success.” > > Mr. Shah could not say a word and left like a gambler who had lost all he > had. > > There was another Allah-fearing Pakistani in another Pakistani > community. He was mostly referred to as Sarkar Jee instead of his real > name. One of the tasks he had taken upon himself was advising people > that Muslims must marry Muslims. He had a theory of genetic transfer > of sin: “If anyone in the history of your family has tasted pork, it > will take seven generations to rid of the sin of eating pork!” Which > means that seven generations would be infected only because someone in > the past tasted pork. > > The eldest son of Sarkar Jee married a Chinese woman who was a > Christian. Her father ran a non-halal restaurant where pork was served > too. Just like Mullah F, Sarkar Jee had a well-thought-out answer: > “Allah chose my son to convert a woman to Islam. What else could one > have asked for? Who can fault my son?” No one upon the pain of death. > > Typically Pakistanis are hypocritical, intellectually dishonest, and > morally bankrupt. I challenge anyone to visit Pakistanis living > abroad. Day in and day out, they denounce their host > countries—Australia, Britain, Canada, etc—for being immoral and > anti-Islamic, but will never leave and settle down in Pakistan. They > are in the forefront in demanding their rights, but are absent when it > comes to fulfilling their civic duties. In Pakistan, an American drone > attack will outrage the entire nation for killing a dozen people, but > the beheading and burning alive of hundreds of Muslims and non-Muslims > by the fundamentalists is condemned by only a handful of brave people. > I can quote dozens of examples where little girls were raped in the > mosques, but no one raised a voice against the rapes, and no one was > ever punished for those rapes (All of the rapists were imams or > pesh-imams of those mosques). Look at the hypocrisy of Pakistan’s Urdu > journalists and politicians: every time innocent people are killed via > suicide bombing the standard response is: “Muslims cannot do it.” > Matter closed. The fact is that those who carry out these crimes are > hundred per cent Muslim and have impeccable Islamic credentials: They > pray five times a day, read the Koran regularly, and most of them are > hafiz. Muslims believe that on the Day of Judgment one hafiz will lead > a dozen of people to Paradise. > > Internationally, the Unite States is the wickedest country, but > American education for one’s son is a dream come true and an American > green card is Allah’s greatest boon. Jews are the enemies of humanity, > but Jewish inventions and discoveries are fully exploited for our > benefit. > > Our national hypocrisy is one reason that Pakistan will always remain > a heart of darkness. > > Abbas Zaidi > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Thu May 21 16:17:25 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 03:47:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] (KUWAIT) "Female MPs 'must' wear the headscarf" Message-ID: <53948.31332.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com>   - " he regarded MPs who do not wear the headscarf to be in violation of election laws, adding that he would do everything in his power to enforce the law on female MPs who do not wear the headscarf."   - " he believed that Islam restricted women from participating in government and that Kuwaiti women should not be participants in parliament, citing the following Hadith by Prophet Mohammad (PBUH): "A group of people leaving their issues for a woman to look after will not prosper."  "   "Female MPs 'must' wear the headscarf" Published Date: May 21, 2009   KUWAIT: Newly elected MP Mohammad Hayif Al-Mutairi recently said that he thought the reason behind Kuwaiti women's success in reaching parliament this election was a result of the dynamics and structure in the districts that the candidates came from. He added that a lack of coordination between some candidates and "outside interference" also gave women an advantage. In later statements, Hayif also maintained that he regarded MPs who do not wear the headscarf to be in violation of election laws, adding that he would do everything in his power to enforce the law on female MPs who do not wear the headscarf. The MP said his statements were based on elements of Sharia law. In his statement, he also said that any person elected to parliament must first defend the Constitution and respect the laws of the country themselves, saying that the headscarf was an obligation for Muslim women and that not wearing it violated Sharia law, which should be followed more closely than man-made laws, he said. Furthermore, Hayif said he believed that Islam restricted women from participating in government and that Kuwaiti women should not be participants in parliament, citing the following Had ith by Prophet Mohammad (PBUH): "A group of people leaving their issues for a woman to look after will not prosper. Hayif asserted that he and his fellow Islamists were studying the possibility of boycotting the oath-taking session if the female MPs take their oaths without wearing the headscarf. They said that the enforcement of election laws were important and that someone must stand up for them. In related news, Hayif commented on the possibility of HH Sheikh Nasser Al-Mohammed Al-Sabah returning to parliament as prime minister. The MP said that the selection of the prime minister was the right of HH the Amir alone and that he would welcome any decision that he made. Hayif added that he looked forward to working with a prime minister with good qualifications and a sense of responsibility in the coming National Assembly. The newly elected MP maintained that he would continue to live up to his Constitutional and jurisdictional obligations to parliament and said that the large number of votes he received in the election indicated the high degree of trust voters in his district placed in him, Al-Watan reported. In response to a question about whether or not Hayif and fellow Islamists would consider votes casted by female MPs to be legal or not, the MP maintained that if such a case were to persist in the National Assembly, he and his colleagues would put the best interests of Kuwait first, which he said is always the top priority. http://www.kuwaittimes.net/read_news.php?newsid=MTQwMzgzNTc3Ng   From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Thu May 21 16:19:45 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 16:19:45 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Giving money to any individual student based on faith, caste, is it correct in rule of laws, in democra In-Reply-To: <341380d00905210129v5ce84660u88b407248bb4ef29@mail.gmail.com> References: <7271ec560905210053m6a8839cdi9f5fd84fe0cd406e@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00905210129v5ce84660u88b407248bb4ef29@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <576021.7048.qm@web94712.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Giving money based on gender will actually keep the basic logic alive, girls need to work, first priority to be given to boychild! In a place like Indian with pressing social issues such shows should be heavily critisised, if discrimination is to end. Or do we eant some elite female members to pick up arms for some feminist movement? I do not understand! Subhrodip.   ________________________________ From: anupam chakravartty To: sarai list Sent: Thursday, 21 May, 2009 1:59:13 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Giving money to any individual student based on faith, caste, is it correct in rule of laws, in democra Dear Rajen, social issues have to tackled inclusively. do you even know what inclusiveness means? im sure you dont. i am sorry but i will state it now. your "dont mix communalism with solutions to social problems" idea is pseudo, when you in another post you go to say that with the growth of religious fundamentalism, hindus must be united. let me very clear, that with postings of this sort no solution will come out it. identity politics is narrower, shallower and mostly stupid as doesnt consider people as individuals but merely as groups with common traits. certainly, it helps in administration, but it defecates on the social fabric of our society and our aspirations as a nation. -anupam On 5/21/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > > Dear Rajen > > One clarification. I said 'don't mix communalism with social demographics'. > It should actually be 'don't mix communalism with solutions to social > problems'. In other words, don't look at ghosts which don't exist. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with Yahoo! India Travel http://in.travel.yahoo.com/ From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Thu May 21 16:25:16 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 16:25:16 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Hindu plight! In-Reply-To: <590904.93911.qm@web94707.mail.in2.yahoo.com> References: <101411.44743.qm@web94709.mail.in2.yahoo.com> <507436.42103.qm@web94709.mail.in2.yahoo.com> <7271ec560905210043i208211c9l74115ef5433ff982@mail.gmail.com> <590904.93911.qm@web94707.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Subhrodip jee As I reply, I must state that I didn't get a complete understanding of your mail. What I have understood, has made me reply in this manner as below. If anything is wrong or you feel I have misunderstood something, please do reply back. My response is as follows: 1) I have no religious trauma Sir jee. I know very well that religion is political, and what I think would be good for the people of our state would be that religion is used to unite people, not divide people. What I see instead is that religion is being used to divide people, whether be it Karnataka, Ayodhya, Gujarat, Kandhamal or elsewhere in India. People cutting across all religions are using it to justify their activities, and this would be harmful both to the people of India as well as the nature of the state itself. As far as Bin Laden and Sri Ram Sene are concerned, I believe they are actually religious. The reason is that religion basically involves politics, and politics means bringing people together for a common cause. In the case of Laden, the cause is to establish the Caliphate, or Islamic (Sunni) rule. In the case of Ram Sene, it is to ensure that women are made to live in a certain manner and men are given the supreme role in society. They are not faithful towards their religions, however, as I see it. Their faiths are not Islam or Hinduism, but simply useless ideas which will go against the teachings of Hinduism and Islam (the teachings are meant to be objects of faith and those who read them I believe have the choice to accept them or not. Instead, they are now being used as tools for personal vendetta and gains) 2) Your second comment is I believe on community. First of all, I remember Aashish Nandy, whom I have read in this regard. Nandy has always stated that with today's ideologies of privatization and consumerism gaining acceptance across the world, people have become more individualistic, and therefore there is no sense of attachment to things. Even if it's there, it's temporary. Lots of people are uprooted from their culture, and anything which can be used to bring that attachment to something, a cause, an object or anything else, brings a kind of psychological and emotional satisfaction to people. Now I am not sure how much this is true. It could be or could not be true. I personally don't know what kind of attachment would our ancestors have had with their culture which we don't do with ours. May be it's the sense of community you are speaking about, which is not there. However, community formation does not mean that people form communities which get satisfaction by committing violence on others. I have no objection with a 'Ram Mandir Mandal' or a 'Khwaja Moinuddin Group' or something, but my contention is that people should at least realize rationally whether the attachment they have is good for the community, the society, the nation (or the state) and the human race itself or not. After all, what's the use of a section of middle class supporting Hindutva, when all it can lead is to making the minorities of India politically, economically and socially vulnerable on one hand, and re-introducing the caste system on the other. (which is what the RSS believes in) Therefore, associate yourselves with social service, that's fine with me. Not with ideologies which can lead to problems for the human race. 3) I didn't get at all your para from here: *Many of these peple at ground level have varied emotions and thoughts attached to our place of worship not on religious seggregationary lines, and if we do not know our verses well not certainly on idealogies. Not Saffron millatants, this is just one community, a strong community which we depend upon! Let us assoscite. We do not nowadays even attack aethists,let us survive!It would not attack your regime,so no need to overstrech secularism!* Is there some community you are referring to? What ar e you associating with that community? And as for secularism, I never mentioned anything connecting atheism and secularism. Where does that come from? 4) My final point is that while in a conflict people do have rational reasons also, the major problem as you stated is incompatibility. For example, on this very forum, we have Kashmiri Pandits and those supporting the separatists' stand. The point is that both have faced problems and miseries which they shouldn't have, but their stand as it seems now is incompatible with respect to each other. So they do have some kind of rational backing on their side, but they are incompatible. Regards Rakesh From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Thu May 21 16:35:33 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 16:35:33 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Giving money to any individual student based on faith, caste, is it correct in rule of laws, in democra In-Reply-To: <576021.7048.qm@web94712.mail.in2.yahoo.com> References: <7271ec560905210053m6a8839cdi9f5fd84fe0cd406e@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00905210129v5ce84660u88b407248bb4ef29@mail.gmail.com> <576021.7048.qm@web94712.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Subhrodip I agree with you on one particular thing here. Any such scheme, be it giving girls some money if they come to school, or the Ladli Laxmi Yojana, is actually based on a mindset which is patriarchial. The female is being patronized in such cases. But one must remember that the dominating situation within our society is indeed patriarchial. Even today, if a girl marries against her father's wishes in most of the families in India, there would be a huge 'hungama'. And girls doing love marriages are even killed for 'honour' if you were to go to Punjab and Haryana, even if they travel abroad! At such a moment of time, when we would like our women to also grow well and come up in life, and we want to ensure a better sex ratio in our society (increase the no. of females per males), it is inevitable that such schemes have to be conjured up, so that we can hope that if not today, the educated females of today can tomorrow , on becoming mothers, at least help in creating a society which is not patriarchial (or even matriarchial) but an equal society. We cannot bring this change through a Leftist blood-filled revolution, neither can we bring this change through a Rightist market based revolution. This has to be based on social aspects and we have to do this unfortunately. I agree that this change should be brought in so that 30 years from now, our females wouldn't be submissive as they are today. Of course, as I remember having read in one of my courses, we are moving towards a decisive stage when women would be so powerful that one day, men of India would require a National Commission on Men (like NCM on minorities, women, tribals and so on) as they would get most of the rights. And to prove themselves masculine each and every day, they would have to slog it out. For the idea was that a female in India would not have to do extraordinary things everyday to prove her feminity, but a male would have to work both at office and home to prove his masculinity, in addition to of course, getting more as salary than the female he wants to marry with. For the moment, we can forget such predictions and support such schemes. Regards Rakesh From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Thu May 21 17:02:40 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 04:32:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: Re: (KUWAIT) "Women's election victory attracts crop of headlines" Message-ID: <102783.93709.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> I have been told the following:   """"" Incidentally, one of the winning women MPs, Aseel el Awadhi, a professor of philosophy in Kuwait University with a strong young following, was sued for blasphemy some time back because she said that there is no basis for veiling women in Islam.""""    Her victory thus would be especially significant alongside that of the other three.   The other mail I posted "Female MPs 'must' wear the headscarf" tells us what disabling attitudes and vituperation the contesting women must have faced and will continue to be subjected to.   Kshmendra      From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Thu May 21 17:51:11 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 17:51:11 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Reservation for any caste, faith or community., is it rule od laws in democratic life.? In-Reply-To: References: <7271ec560905210057x1e616d7dlc67da3de73953bf8@mail.gmail.com> <7271ec560905210502v2854b74fm42eb3ff2e4936698@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 5:48 PM, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > Dear all > > I think quite a lot has been said on this matter. If Rajen jee and Malik > jee or anybody else feel it is still wrong, i would request them to go to > the SC and file a PIL against it. After all, they can put forth their > arguments there as well. That would be quite good too. And the SC can decide > what is right and what is wrong then. > > Regards > > Rakesh > From subasrik at yahoo.com Thu May 21 17:53:15 2009 From: subasrik at yahoo.com (Subasri Krishnan) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 05:23:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Aid for Refugees in Sri Lanka Message-ID: <21737.88400.qm@web57601.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Apologies for cross posting. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear all, Some of us are trying to collect some things to be sent to refugees in Sri Lanka. Below are all the details. Please contribute whatever you can. For those outside India, we can figure out ways in which you could send money across. So please do get in touch as soon as you can. Thank you for all your support. Warm Regards, Ponni. -- A call for Aid: Collecting items to distribute among Refugees in Sri Lanka   This is a call from individuals concerned about the state of refugees in Sri Lanka at the end of this military conflict, the brunt of which, many refugees, dead and alive have faced. Its is expected that around 313,000 IDPs[1] refugees are in various camps in Sri Lanka. It is important to remember that a large number of these refugees are women. Please keep this in mind while making your contribution.   Who are we: we are a group of individuals who have been involved in a range of work related to the conflict in Sri Lanka over the past few years in Sri Lanka and India. For further details on our work please contact us and we will be more than willing to furnish any information you may need in this regard.   Distribution: We have made arrangements with organizations in Colombo to duly distribute any amount of items we may collect. It suffices to say that these organizations have been involved in work around conflict and human rights in Sri Lanka since its very inception. For further details on these organizations please contact us and we will be more than willing to furnish any information you may need in this regard.     What is needed:   Medicines: Any basic medicines such as tablets, band aids, cotton etc although it might be preferable to give money for the acquiring of medicine there locally as it might be easier to transport within the country rather than from outside, although any contributions in a large enough scale of medicines themselves would be very welcome. Clothes: All kinds of clothes for men, women and children are welcome. Also, bed sheets and towels are also needed. Please refrain from sending any clothes that are not useable. Books, notebooks, pens, crayons, sketch pens, colour pencils: all of these items would be very welcome to distribute among children in the camps. Money: Money is needed for buying of basic items such as sanitary pads, medicine and food and of course drinking water, which is of enormous scarcity in the camps as of now. All those who wish to contribute money, kindly contact Ponni Arasu at mailponni at gmail.com or Priya Thangarajah at ipriyat at gmail.com for further information.   Collection Points:   Chennai:   Corporate Accountability Desk 42a, First Floor, 5th avenue, Besant Nagar, Chennai - 90  Phone number : 044 - 24463763 and 9840398852 - Jeny     Mumbai: Women's Centre 104/b, Sunrise Apts Above Canara Bank, Vakola,  Santa Cruz (East),  Mumbai, Maharashtra 400055 Ph: 9987398629; 022- 26680403   Bangalore:   Alternative Law forum 122/4, Infantry Road, Opposite infantry wedding hall, Bangalore -1 Ph: 080- 22868757   Delhi:   Nirantar B-64 (2nd Floor), Sarvodaya Enclave New Delhi 110 017 India Phone: 91-11-26966334, 91-11-26517726 (telefax) Website: www.nirantar.net , The drop in time is from 10 - 5 monday to friday and 1st and 3rd saturdays.       Kindly contribute generously and at the earliest so we can begin to provide the bare minimum for the people in Sri Lanka who are now in the midst of one of the largest humanitarian crises in recent history.   From rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com Thu May 21 18:03:04 2009 From: rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com (Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 18:03:04 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Reservation for any caste, faith or community., is it rule od laws in democratic life.? In-Reply-To: References: <7271ec560905210057x1e616d7dlc67da3de73953bf8@mail.gmail.com> <7271ec560905210502v2854b74fm42eb3ff2e4936698@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7271ec560905210533v478301bcxde84b76faef2ab5f@mail.gmail.com> Dear all, when we say all are human beings first, how is it that in rule of laws in action needs to be special to some and be discriminatory to others as we talk of extending the benefits of good education, health care and potable water etc.?In governance to be fair, the religion has no place at all, as it is the private domain of individuals. Regards, Rajen. On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 5:51 PM, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > > > On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 5:48 PM, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > >> Dear all >> >> I think quite a lot has been said on this matter. If Rajen jee and Malik >> jee or anybody else feel it is still wrong, i would request them to go to >> the SC and file a PIL against it. After all, they can put forth their >> arguments there as well. That would be quite good too. And the SC can decide >> what is right and what is wrong then. >> >> Regards >> >> Rakesh >> > > -- Rajen. From c.anupam at gmail.com Thu May 21 18:13:11 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 18:13:11 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Reservation for any caste, faith or community., is it rule od laws in democratic life.? In-Reply-To: <7271ec560905210533v478301bcxde84b76faef2ab5f@mail.gmail.com> References: <7271ec560905210057x1e616d7dlc67da3de73953bf8@mail.gmail.com> <7271ec560905210502v2854b74fm42eb3ff2e4936698@mail.gmail.com> <7271ec560905210533v478301bcxde84b76faef2ab5f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <341380d00905210543i1217fd6h700232f792b0b503@mail.gmail.com> dear rajen, would you say reservations for brahmins in rajasthan is not right? -anupam On 5/21/09, Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi wrote: > > Dear all, > when we say all are human beings first, how is it that in rule of laws > in action needs to be special to some and be discriminatory to others as we > talk of extending the benefits of good education, health care and potable > water etc.?In governance to be fair, the religion has no place at all, as it > is the private domain of individuals. > > Regards, > > Rajen. > > On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 5:51 PM, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > >> >> >> On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 5:48 PM, Rakesh Iyer wrote: >> >>> Dear all >>> >>> I think quite a lot has been said on this matter. If Rajen jee and Malik >>> jee or anybody else feel it is still wrong, i would request them to go to >>> the SC and file a PIL against it. After all, they can put forth their >>> arguments there as well. That would be quite good too. And the SC can decide >>> what is right and what is wrong then. >>> >>> Regards >>> >>> Rakesh >>> >> >> >> > > > > -- > Rajen. > > From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Thu May 21 18:13:40 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 18:13:40 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Reservation for any caste, faith or community., is it rule od laws in democratic life.? In-Reply-To: <7271ec560905210533v478301bcxde84b76faef2ab5f@mail.gmail.com> References: <7271ec560905210057x1e616d7dlc67da3de73953bf8@mail.gmail.com> <7271ec560905210502v2854b74fm42eb3ff2e4936698@mail.gmail.com> <7271ec560905210533v478301bcxde84b76faef2ab5f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Rajen jee If you feel it's so wrong, and there are others with you, you can do things: 1) Vote against the govt. which brings about such policies 2) Go to courts and file PIL and get them out forever. After all, if the SC can ask AP govt. not to reserve seats for Muslims, you can also go and get it done. What is stopping you from doing so? Regards Rakesh From pawan.durani at gmail.com Fri May 22 09:28:21 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 09:28:21 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fudged EVM's ? Message-ID: <6b79f1a70905212058k4d2aaa3ak31769688297b0cf4@mail.gmail.com> India's electronic voting faces lawsuit over accountability May 3rd, 2004 by Frederick Noronha inLinux Journal With a billion voters all depending on one proprietary system, the risks of tampering are high. With his recently filed lawsuit, a professor attempts to restore confidence in electronic voting. Retired computer science professor Satinath Choudhary has filed public interest litigation over India's new electronic voting machines (EVMs) in India's Supreme Court. Dr. Choudhary is a 1964 graduate of the prestigious Indian Institute of Technology and has also taught in the United States. The suit is due to come up for hearing immediately. In the petition, a copy of which was uncharacteristically released publicly over the tech lists in India, Dr. Choudhary cited news reports of problems with the EVMs in some parts of the country, and said: "In my public-interest litigation (PIL) I have asked the Supreme Court for directions. I hope it will give a direction to save democracy in India." In an op-ed column for The Indian Express last week, Dr. Choudhary wrote, "Producing doctored EVMs is child's play." Much of the debate cited problems faced by electronic voting even in countries like the US. India has voted for a new parliament. Results are due only around May 13, from the worlds most-populous democracy with a population of more than one billion. But whoever wins, the demand for openness in standards and source code is already a clear winner. India held a staggered election to elect 540-plus parliamentarians. This is the first all-electronic Indian poll, with some 725,000 EVMs used in every polling booth in India. The made-in-India EVMs consists of a control unit and a balloting unit joined by a cable. The vote is cast by pressing the blue button on the balloting unit next to the candidate and symbol of choice. But official claims over the "achievements" of the EVMs were quickly contested both in the mainstream media, and also among tech-oriented mailing lists that link up some highly qualified techies in this part of the globe. "The reliability of the EVMs manufactured by the (Indian) public sector Bharat Electronics Limited and the Electronics Corporation of India Limited is doubtful. The software and circuits embedded in the EVMs could very well contain numerous flaws or deliberate backdoors for tampering," commented Ravi Visvesvaraya Prasad, writing in the prominent Delhi-based newspaper 'Hindustan Times'. Prasad argued that a maxim of software and microelectronics engineering is that all software and electronic and electromechanical systems are to be regarded as error-prone unless rigorous testing proves them to be reliable. Significantly, he said, the Indian firms behind the products had not "disclosed details of the electronic hardware and software used in their EVMs for scrutiny by neutral experts". "How does the EVM work? Frankly, we don't know. (A professor from the one of the prestigious Indian Institute of Technology who explained its working on TV) could only test the EVMs as a black box. A proper scrutiny of the EVM is possible only when the source code of the EVM is public," argued Ashhar Farhan on the tech-oriented India-GII mailing list, which focuses on Internet and technology issues. The list is hosted on the servers of the network of the Computer Professionals for Social Responsibility, the oldest non-profit, mass membership organization working on social impacts of computer technology. There was wider agreement with Farhan's view that unless India knows the exact algorithm "and more particularly, the source code, then we, the citizens cannot be assured of fairness of the EVM". Other questions were also raised over whether the EVMs were secure and had robust hardware. Some debating the issue raised the possibilities of the EVM being programmed to change the vote count to a paritcular candidate after pressing a combination of other keys. This combination can easily be trigged by successive voters who are a part of the conspiracy. This will remain only between the programmer and those few voters. They only have to stand in a particular order in the voting queue and press buttons in that particular order. "Unless we are informed of the exact source code and hardware of the EVM, it is not possible to verify the security of the EVM," said Farhan. "AFAIK there is no provision for any audit trail or manual/paper verification. Has anyone seen and verified the source code? As far as I know, it is in assembly language burnt into the IC and the source code is not available for inspection. Does anyone have the circuit schematic?" commented another poster to the list, signing his name as the 'Root Of All Evil'. http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/7561 From indersalim at gmail.com Fri May 22 09:32:58 2009 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 09:32:58 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] on Bhupen Khakhar: waiting for Two, not Godot Message-ID: <47e122a70905212102h25dc7e52geff7424636e5e451@mail.gmail.com> Dear All please press to read http://singularitease.blogspot.com/ love inder salim From akmalik45 at yahoo.com Fri May 22 10:15:26 2009 From: akmalik45 at yahoo.com (A.K. Malik) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 21:45:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Reservation for any caste, faith or community., is it rule od laws in democratic life.? Message-ID: <115611.36062.qm@web39108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dear Rakeshji, It is a Constitutional impropriety imposed on us by the Parliamentarians.The reservation for SC/ST was only for initial 10 years after our Constitution was adopted.It has since been extended umpteen times every ten years and is still legally valid. Even SC can't do anything unless it becomes pro-active.There is still some hope for OBC reservation being struck down as the data on which it was based are under question.Rakeshjee, please try to understand if for each and everything you opine on,your advice is to go to SC, then I will have to be in SC eternally filing cases.Having a difference of opinion is not a crime. We undergo umpteen injustices day-in day-out, going to an ordinary court further aggravates it knowing fully what the courts do in our country. You must have heard when a sting operation procured arrest warrants against the President of India and CJI of Supreme Court. (A.K.MALIK) --- On Thu, 5/21/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > From: Rakesh Iyer > Subject: Re: Reservation for any caste, faith or community., is it rule od laws in democratic life.? > To: "Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi" > Cc: akmalik45 at yahoo.com, c.anupam at gmail.com, "sarai list" > Date: Thursday, May 21, 2009, 5:51 PM > > > On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 5:48 PM, > Rakesh Iyer > wrote: > > Dear all > > I think quite a lot has been said on this matter. If Rajen > jee and Malik jee or anybody else feel it is still wrong, i > would request them to go to the SC and file a PIL against > it. After all, they can put forth their arguments there as > well. That would be quite good too. And the SC can decide > what is right and what is wrong then. > > > > Regards > > Rakesh > > > > From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Fri May 22 10:22:36 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 10:22:36 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fudged EVM's ? In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70905212058k4d2aaa3ak31769688297b0cf4@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70905212058k4d2aaa3ak31769688297b0cf4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Pawan The issue that EVM's should not be fudged is certainly something we all will definitely agree on and should agree on. I don't have the technical know-how about the EVM's and so believe that we should definitely try to bring about changes which can help in improving our electoral system being more transparent. The ballot boxes were indeed difficult to monitor and there were also chances of booth capture, so the EVM's were introduced. I think this issue assumes significance in the light of many things. First of all, it's generally believed or perceived by state govts. that if you don't keep the bureaucracy and the state officials happy through salaries and other fiscal goodies for them, you have a greater chance of losing the elections. This was generally perceived to be the reason for the defeat of the Congress in the 2003 Assembly elections as well as the 2004 Lok Sabha defeat of the AIADMK (when the front of AIADMK-BJP didn't win a single seat in TN). This assumes significance in light of the fact that there can't be more than 40-50 lakh govt. officials I believe in any state even if one were to count them, while the state electorate would certainly be very large compared to this figure. This may not be related to the EVM fudging necessarily, but this must still be checked as an issue. Secondly, the issue of Chidambaram's victory is something which must be looked into, as has been raised in this forum time and again. It's ironic that he was trailing by some 3,000 odd votes and then on recounting declared the victor by around the same margin! Legally this case must be tackled and found out as to how this is going on. Moreover, there is also the issue of more votes being polled than being voted, or something like that (I am not exactly sure of this). This must be checked into it. I would also like to mention here that as part of the electoral reforms, Mr. Gopalaswamy (whom I once had the chance to hear in a function) had stated that to ensure that the state bureaucracy does not manipulate voting in any form to get the verdict in a transparent manner, the EC had suggested to the central govt. to form an EC cadre of its own for different states at constituency level. The idea would be that these officials would not be aligned with any political party from the family background or otherwise themselves. This EC cadre would thereby perform all the functions the state bureaucracy is currently doing to conduct elections, except maintaining law and order, which would still be in the hands of the district administration. Also, a substantial portion of the cadre required for election conduct would be from outside the state to ensure that impartiality is maintained in this cadre. The EC also stated that this would bring about employment for many educated people, as an additional benefit to the transparency obtained through election. If I am not wrong, this was based on some PIL filed in the SC long back, though I may be wrong. On this issue of EVM's, I would say that we need to get a technical check up of how this system works and whether it can be easily fudged or not by independent experts (if necessary from outside India), and the SC can pass the order on this count if this is the case. I would also like to know whether this PIL is still there in the SC, or not. And what did the SC do with regard to this PIL? Please Pawan ji, do inform about this as well. Regards Rakesh From akmalik45 at yahoo.com Fri May 22 10:23:29 2009 From: akmalik45 at yahoo.com (A.K. Malik) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 21:53:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Reservation for any caste, faith or community., is it rule od laws in democratic life.? Message-ID: <377187.75903.qm@web39102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dear Rakeshji, It is the vote bank politics which does not allow you to choose the right Govt because those who are promised benefits illegally or otherwise vote for vested interests. 2. Except for higher judiciary, there is no hope. A good lawyer who can win case for you, charges a min of Rs one lakh per appearance in the court.So you are left with no choice except to bear injustices.And then there is your advice.God bless us and our country. (A.K.MALIK) --- On Thu, 5/21/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > From: Rakesh Iyer > Subject: Re: Reservation for any caste, faith or community., is it rule od laws in democratic life.? > To: "Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi" > Cc: akmalik45 at yahoo.com, c.anupam at gmail.com, "sarai list" > Date: Thursday, May 21, 2009, 6:13 PM > Dear Rajen jee > > If you feel it's so wrong, and there are others with > you, you can do things: > > 1) Vote against the govt. which brings about such policies > > 2) Go to courts and file PIL and get them out forever. > After all, if the SC can ask AP govt. not to reserve seats > for Muslims, you can also go and get it done. What is > stopping you from doing so? > > > Regards > > Rakesh > > From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Fri May 22 10:34:46 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 10:34:46 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Reservation for any caste, faith or community., is it rule od laws in democratic life.? In-Reply-To: <115611.36062.qm@web39108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <115611.36062.qm@web39108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Malik jee I think first of all the PIL's filed in the SC do get a quick judgement, at least compared to many other cases which keep on dragging in the court. In any case, I can understand your predicament. I am not saying that you can't have a difference of opinion; but I believe that if you really feel it's wrong, go and pressurize the govt. to realize that you are right, and let those who differ from you also do the same. Then let the govt. take the decision accordingly. If a govt. on public pressure can introduce NREGA, then you also have the option of doing so. Of course, it takes time and patience and a lot of effort, but if you really support your stand, you have the choice of doing it. Secondly, on the particular issue of reservation, I believe that reservations must be decided on a rational and scientific basis, not on vote considerations. But the current reservations are anyway not going to help the so many poor OBC's who live across the country. On the issue of OBC reservation, I think we need a proper rational debate, but on the larger issue of reservations, I believe reservations are one good way in the short term to reduce some amount of inequality. If our rich and middle class feel so threatened, they have the money and the resources (thanks to our govt which has made bank loans so easy to get), to study abroad. They always have the option to do that. But India also belongs to the SC's, the ST's, the OBC's, the Muslims (of all kinds) , the Christians (of all kinds) as much as it does to the upper castes, the rich and the middle class. Third, our judiciary indeed does take bad decisions, as I myself believe in both the Afzal Guru and the Sardar Sarovar Dam cases. There would be many more, I believe. However, that does not mean that we shouldn't have faith in them. At least they are an option we can turn to, and only when they fail should we get public pressure and people-based movements behind us to make the SC change its stand. After all, courts are due to people, people are not due to courts. In other words, 'janta se sarkaar hai, sarkaar se janta nahi'. As far as promised benefits are concerned, all parties in their manifestos had made many promises. For illegal promises and vested interests, I must say that I personally couldn't vote simply because my exams were going on in Chennai and I am registered in Bhopal as a voter. If you refer not to me but the whole of India, by stating such things, you are insulting the decision making ability of the people of India, and this is very unfortunate and wrong. This is condemnable. As far as God blessing us is concerned, I remember what Modi said once 'It's better to be Ram bharose rather than Sonia bharose'. I would say: 'It's better to be Ram and common people bharose rather than the rich-middle class combo/Modi/Manmohan/Sonia/Advani/political class/judiciary bharose' Regards Rakesh From akmalik45 at yahoo.com Fri May 22 10:35:51 2009 From: akmalik45 at yahoo.com (A.K. Malik) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 22:05:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Giving money to any individual student based on faith, caste, is it correct in rule of laws, in democra Message-ID: <808524.93590.qm@web39103.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Rakeshji, At least there is one thing where I have agreement with views expressed by you. Thanks a lot (A.K.MALIK) --- On Thu, 5/21/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: > From: Rakesh Iyer > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Giving money to any individual student based on faith, caste, is it correct in rule of laws, in democra > To: "subhrodip sengupta" > Cc: "Readers list Yousuf Sarai." > Date: Thursday, May 21, 2009, 4:35 PM > Dear Subhrodip > > I agree with you on one particular thing here. Any such > scheme, be it giving > girls some money if they come to school, or the Ladli Laxmi > Yojana, is > actually based on a mindset which is patriarchial. The > female is being > patronized in such cases. But one must remember that the > dominating > situation within our society is indeed patriarchial. > > Even today, if a girl marries against her father's wishes > in most of the > families in India, there would be a huge 'hungama'. And > girls doing love > marriages are even killed for 'honour' if you were to go to > Punjab and > Haryana, even if they travel abroad! > > At such a moment of time, when we would like our women to > also grow well and > come up in life, and we want to ensure a better sex ratio > in our society > (increase the no. of females per males), it is inevitable > that such schemes > have to be conjured up, so that we can hope that if not > today, the educated > females of today can tomorrow , on becoming mothers, at > least help in > creating a society which is not patriarchial (or even > matriarchial) but an > equal society. > > We cannot bring this change through a Leftist blood-filled > revolution, > neither can we bring this change through a Rightist market > based revolution. > This has to be based on social aspects and we have to do > this unfortunately. > I agree that this change should be brought in so that 30 > years from now, our > females wouldn't be submissive as they are today. > > Of course, as I remember having read in one of my courses, > we are moving > towards a decisive stage when women would be so powerful > that one day, men > of India would require a National Commission on Men (like > NCM on minorities, > women, tribals and so on) as they would get most of the > rights. And to prove > themselves masculine each and every day, they would have to > slog it out. For > the idea was that a female in India would not have to do > extraordinary > things everyday to prove her feminity, but a male would > have to work both at > office and home to prove his masculinity, in addition to of > course, getting > more as salary than the female he wants to marry with. > > For the moment, we can forget such predictions and support > such schemes. > > Regards > > Rakesh > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Fri May 22 10:38:31 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 10:38:31 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Giving money to any individual student based on faith, caste, is it correct in rule of laws, in democra In-Reply-To: <808524.93590.qm@web39103.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <808524.93590.qm@web39103.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Sir Please express your views and then I make my own judgement. If my judgement is flawed or based on wrong rationale please mention it. I am not here to agree to or not to disagree on someone's views. I express my view, and try to listen to others. I may be wrong so I listen to others too. After all, if one has formed a pre-conceived view, what is the use of a discussion? Regards Rakesh From akmalik45 at yahoo.com Fri May 22 11:13:36 2009 From: akmalik45 at yahoo.com (A.K. Malik) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 22:43:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] plight of the muslim women and appeasement Message-ID: <934690.11799.qm@web39101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dear Mr Chakravartty, Since the info has been more or less a first hand from the Schools,my only objection had been the effect of such moves on the tender minds of kid girls.You can't make a girl of 10-12 years understand why a muslim girl whose parents are well-off gets Rs 300 and she whose parents hardly able to get even full food for the day doesn't get it.If the money is to be paid, let it be paid to all girl students irrespective of caste creed and religion or it must be based on economic criterion again irrespective of caste and creed as also of religion. I have even a problem with the Scheme to be named with a MUslim name as also I oftenly find problem with all SC/STs places being named Gandhi/Ambedkar Sadans etc and never by Jawahar/Patel or similar ones. (A.K.MALIK) --- On Wed, 5/20/09, anupam chakravartty wrote: > From: anupam chakravartty > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] plight of the muslim women and appeasement > To: "sarai list" > Date: Wednesday, May 20, 2009, 4:13 PM > Dear Mr Malik, > > > > Clarifications first: > > > > The funds for the education and employment for the backward > minorities would > be made available through GOI. Maulana Azad Trust’s > corpus has been > increased to Rs 500 crores. ( > http://www.indianexpress.com/news/education-jobs-plan-panel-focus-for-muslim-uplift/19044/0 > ) > > > > To reason for reservation in any form, I would say that it > is a policy of > involving more and more people in decision-making process > so that a > composite form of governance can be created. If > reservations mean benefits > it also means additional responsibility. Prosperity, which > in this case, is > a derivative of the function of reservation, actually has > an added baggage > of roles, especially in India. These roles are to be > fulfilled by those who > avail what we call reservation as these roles traditionally > were performed > by just one set of people who are endowed with economic > power with and > therefore they were also expected to have a say in the > functioning of the > government and taking large scale policy decision. > > > > I might be contradicting myself, but the reservations are > not just about > economic prosperity. It is a means of social empowerment > too. Infact social > empowerment is the basis for the reservations in India. > While economic > prosperity is a result of individual strengths, social > prosperity and > recognition is a form of collective strength. It is not the > case that social > prosperity could be gained only through economic gains, but > vice versa – as > in you need an atmosphere without any discrimination than > only you can work > better. > > > > In case of Muslims, more than the economic disparity > between the rich and > the poor, it is social relevance of the community that > needs to be addressed > from within the community. Although reforms in Muslims have > to intrinsic and > inclusive, it cannot be seen in the light of the reform > movements in other > religions. Therefore, there is such an impetus on resolving > the issues of > education and employment especially in case of the Muslim > girls. > > > > Like you have pointed out that extra Rs 300 given to the > Muslim girls, I > take this opportunity to point towards 14 per cent > reservation for Brahmins > and other upper castes ( > http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl2514/stories/20080718251403300.htm) > that > have been clearly called economically backward upper > castes, even though the > most backward people would be tribals in Banswada > district. > > > > Thanks anupam > > > On 5/20/09, Rakesh Iyer > wrote: > > > > Dear Malik jee > > > > If you wish to say that benefits like reservation must > be based on economic > > criteria, to quite a substantial extent (leaving aside > SC and ST), I would > > agree, as it is not going to help if only the affluent > among the upper > > castes, the backward castes or the Muslims or other > minorities are getting > > admissions and posts based on reservations. It's the > poor and the > > downtrodden among these communities which require > reservation. > > > > However, when we do provide such reservation, then we > have to ensure that > > these people have the capacity to get absorbed through > such reservations, > > otherwise it's going to be of no use. For example, if > the poor can't avail > > of education even upto 10th std, then what is the use > of providing them > > reservation in IIT's and IIM's ? Therefore, it's time > we debate upon the > > idea of reservation to bring about benefits to > different communities. The > > same argument also extends for SC's and ST's. > > > > At the same time, one must not forget that one of the > benefits of > > introducing reservation was to increase national > unity, and whether one > > likes it or not, this is something which can't be > debated. If there would > > have been no reservation for SC's and ST's too, these > would also have felt > > useless and would have joined themselves to causes > which indulge in violence > > (at least a part have done so through Naxalism), and I > feel the Naxalite > > problem may have been greater, along with violence due > to caste > > discrimination and casteism. > > > > I have no problems with reservation as a move, it's > just that I accept your > > point that reservation for any caste or religion or > community must be > > debated, and the previous effects of reservation must > be studied while > > undertaking any new reservations to ensure that these > actually turn > > effective. And if that means reservation for poor > across all castes and > > communities has to be provided, so be it. > > > > Regards > > > > Rakesh > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From vedavati_jogi at yahoo.com Fri May 22 11:34:41 2009 From: vedavati_jogi at yahoo.com (Vedavati Jogi) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 11:34:41 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] The Hindu plight! Message-ID: <42586.65638.qm@web94711.mail.in2.yahoo.com> i don't have any muslim trauma i am not against muslims but i am definitely against these pseudo seculars   vedavati   --- On Thu, 21/5/09, subhrodip sengupta wrote: From: subhrodip sengupta Subject: [Reader-list] The Hindu plight! To: "Readers list Yousuf Sarai." Date: Thursday, 21 May, 2009, 6:24 PM Dear Rakeshji,               I have a bad hait of interruption. If Vedavatiji has some Muslim trauma, do you have a Hindu trauma? Nay religious trauma? Is Bin Laden or Sri Ram Sene Chief religious? How many Hindus or Muslims support them? Do you not see the potent idea of community? In lesser developed world, communities are closed, vWerifyable and strong. I do not like closed, for any carnal value. But this idea of being something else than nobody. In a society, most people do not hold high stature, the 'high' says it all, they can not pocket Beurocrats. Lousy, weak and slow they move on! To them a community is precious. For information, support a community is precious, for believers Faith is precious. Many Hindus like me have sidelined seperatists. I have seen muslims doing so. A religion can bring close only those who believe or trust it! We are not seperatists, and we do not believe in either mosque, Akali Takht or Temple raaj! Isn't all this enough? Now can we be left to our privacy and build a community, around temple, around social service? You know bringing everything under one regime appeals to only the rulers and paid soldiers! Many of these peple at ground level have varied emotions and thoughts attached to our place of worship not on religious seggregationary lines, and if we do not know our verses well not certainly on idealogies. Not Saffron millatants, this is just one community, a strong community which we depend upon! Let us assoscite. We do not nowadays even attack aethists,let us survive!It would not attack your regime,so no need to overstrech secularism! By the way if Pak collapses, & we get friendly with most of our neighbours, Nation Chauvinism turned into itself will suffocate masses. Indeed we are Indians, and Hindu or Muslim or Christian or Satan. Unless we get into each other, doesn't Nationality and religion imply differrrent attributes, limited to extent. Or do we do sacrreligious things in the name of the Nation, like things we have heard about the BSF in bangladesh border? Conflict arises when irrationality and thus incompatibilty develops somewhere, in todays world where is it? There lies the answer! Regards, Subhrodip. ________________________________ From: Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi To: subhrodip sengupta Cc: Readers list Yousuf Sarai. Sent: Thursday, 21 May, 2009 1:13:29 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Election Forecast Rakesh jee,    it is not the fear that is at work, but sad feeling that the hindu is divided lot, unable to even defend himself/herself if fanatism takes over by any other follower of faith.I surely think that you have not seen the effect of the such in places where the "minorities" are not even majority, but are in sufficient in numbers like Bhatkal in Karnataka, Kannur, Mallapuram in Kerala, where the percentage of minority is not 17 % but around 40 %, divided hindu society is in fear as divided hindu sees a theeya being attacked or a brahmin being attacked or a nair being attacked, not a hindu being attacked, rule of laws also take no steps as the police is scared to go into such ghettos as false cases of molestation, harassment of minority get immediate attention of all by "secular" media.    When rule of laws is applied without fear or favour, none need to be having fear of united communities of faith, as they only make the society stronger, but the strength if used for mischief and avoidance of the course and process of  laws , it is indeed sad. Society as such does not have faith in revenge, avenging the wrongsfor such acts of violence only breeds more violence and more revenge and misery, thus society lives in hope for better tomorrow, in good system of governance, but when judicial process is delayed,  justice is taken over by mobs to deliver the justice as such mobs feel fit, which is unacceptable in civil society. Regards, Rajen. On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 12:11 PM, subhrodip sengupta wrote: Is the strong unity of sikhs and Muslims the reason for distrust? Communal behaviour can at times be hazardous and has to be permiable to outside for more trust(crimes against women or people are less reported or recognised, leave alone approach outside world), there are good aspects of brother feelings. This is visible if there is positive and humane treatment meeted out to everybody. As regards suspicion many classes of Hindus too stay together and some used to claim at a certain peiod of time that they were not Hindus at all! Let us chalk a long list of such Marwaris, and other sects which give preference to own clan, Biharis, Baniyas, Brmhins etc and then the components and limits of exclusion. It would be fun, and then we can make more precise attacks, though generalised and made of suspicion alone, but more effective! They raped our sisters. We raped theirs as well! ________________________________ From: Rakesh Iyer To: Vedavati Jogi Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Wednesday, 20 May, 2009 10:36:27 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Election Forecast Dear Vedavati You are already so scared of Muslims....I wonder what your plight would be if you were passing through the old areas of any city which are generally Muslim dominated. If you are already so afraid of Muslims (who are also Indians), I sometimes feel what would a 'nationalist' do for the country if sent to the border. Probably you would run away seeing Pakistani soldiers as they too would be mainly Muslims. This mistrust is not going to help you sir, nor is it going to help India, even from the nationalist perspective. Therefore, for India's sake (if not yours), get rid of this disease called mistrust. Get well soon. Regards Rakesh _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive:      Explore your hobbies and interests. Go to http://in.promos.yahoo..com/groups/ _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: -- Rajen.       Explore your hobbies and interests. Go to http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/ _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with Yahoo! India Travel http://in.travel.yahoo.com/ From madhuresh at cacim.net Fri May 22 11:39:40 2009 From: madhuresh at cacim.net (Madhuresh) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 11:39:40 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?REMINDER_FOR_Conversations_on_=93E?= =?windows-1252?q?lections_=2709=2C_UPA=27s_Second_Term_and_Challenges_to_?= =?windows-1252?q?People=27s_Movements=94_TODAY_4-7_pm_ISI=2C_New_Delhi?= Message-ID: <4A1641A4.8060501@cacim.net> No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.36/2127 - Release Date: 05/21/09 17:51:00 From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Fri May 22 11:40:32 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 11:40:32 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Hindu plight! In-Reply-To: <42586.65638.qm@web94711.mail.in2.yahoo.com> References: <42586.65638.qm@web94711.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Vedavati jee For once I would agree with you. I am for true secularism, not pseduo secularism. We have to do away with this. Regards Rakesh From sudeep.ks at gmail.com Fri May 22 08:56:09 2009 From: sudeep.ks at gmail.com (Sudeep K S) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 08:56:09 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Biggest Police firing ever in Kerala.. Message-ID: ..and nobody is talking about it. My friend called me yesterday and told me about what can be called the biggest ever Police firing that happened in Kerala a few days back. It killed five people, and injured about 40 others. He was surprised that I did not even know about it. I have Mathrubhumi at home, my father is active in Kerala's political scene, I have journalist friends.. Nobody told me about it. May be nobody wants to talk about a "communal" incident. I did some googling and found some details. From interesting sources. "Islamic Terrorism" website says, "Muslims, Christians clash in Thiruvananthapuram Kerala, 5 killed, 38 injured ". Sounds cheeky. But only when one gets to the fine print, it does tell so much: "Securitymen in different uniforms stood guard in front of shops which remained closed for the second day after the police firing to avert communal clashes claimed five lives." OK - so it is not the Islamic terrorists who killed five people. It was the Police. The article goes on: "It all began on Saturday when a goon from Cheiryathura, a Christian belt, tried to extort money from merchants at Bheemappally, a Muslim-dominated region. After being manhandled by the locals, the goon, Shibu, rushed to Cheriyathura only to return with a company of his men to retaliate. The gang from Cheriyathura set ablaze a fishing net at Bheemappally. Though the police intervened on Saturday night itself, they lowered their guard assuming normalcy had returned. On Sunday afternoon, a group of youth from Bheemappally stormed into Cheriyathura, hurling bombs at the people of the rival side. The police opened fire, killing four people on the spot, as the mob moved towards a local church. Another person succumbed to injuries on Monday. Nearly 38 men have been injured in the incident.." New Kerala site says, "Four people were killed in this Kerala capital Sunday after clashes between groups of two communities forced the police to open fire, an official said." A Police firing that kills five people is not a joke. Not even in the infamous Muthanga firing could match that. Yet, nobody seems to be interested in taking up this issue, except for some Muslim groups (at the risk of being branded communal). Congress-led UDF is busy celebrating victory, and CPM is busy finding reasons for their wash-out. Muslim League has decided to speak about it after three days (See news in today's Hindu ). New Indian Express is probably the only major news paper link that reported the incident. (Again, with a funny title: Four killed in communal clashes in Kerala ). Then I saw Dr Abdul Salam's piece on grey youth mailing list. Nobody responded to that mail on the list. -sudeep [also posted at http://sudeepsdiary.blogspot.com/2009/05/biggest-police-firing-ever-in-kerala.html] On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 6:49 AM, Dr Abdul Salam wrote: > Kerala Police fires at fishing community, four dead > > > > > > > > > > > > > StateViolations > > > Four persons from the Muslim fishing community were killed when the > Kerala police opened fire to end a clash between two groups in the > Cheriyathura-Beemapally coastal area on the outskirts of the > Thiruvananthapuram city on Sunday evening ( May 17, 2009). The dead as > identified as Ahammed Saleem (50), Badusha (35), Syed Alavi (24), Abdul > Hakkeem (27). 37 persons injured during police fire. Among three of them, > Shafeeq (21), Sajeer (22), Ali (34) are having serious head injury. > > The clashes erupted after a local mafia boss called Shibu tried to extort > money from a small restaurant belongs to Muslim fisherman community in the > area on Saturday. The extortionists were manhandled by the locals as a > protest against mafia rule in the impoverished suburban area. The criminal > gang returned to the area with more people and started pelting stones at > shops and nearby houses. They also torched boats and fishing nets and > damaged shops in the area. Scores were injured as the attacks continued on > Sunday. The police force failed to arrest the mafia leader, Mr. Shibu, a > notorious criminal and drug dealer, which resulted in mass resistance of > fishing community. > > The irate crowd pelted stones at police demanding the arrest of mafia > leader. Soon, the police, under Commissioner A P George, opened fire to > disperse a violent mob assembled at the beach. But locals alleged that > police fired at the crowd without warning. Police should have been able to > use tear gas or rubber bullet to disperse the crowd. But the police fired at > throat and chest of the dead and even by chasing the crowd from behind. > While two bodies were removed to the medical college hospital, two others > were kept in a house as community leaders were not handing them over to the > police, demanding a judicial probe. Police even denied access to medical > facilities to the injured. Victims says that police was unnecessarily trying > to make the clashes as communal, while they were responding against mafia > - police nexus. > > Chief Minister V.S. Achuthanandan, who was in New Delhi, appealed to the > people to remain calm. “Adequate compensation would be given to those who > have suffered damages and (the goevrnment) will do the needful for those who > lost their lives,” Achuthanandan said. N. Ramachandran Nair, the senior > leader of Communist Party of India demanded strict action against police. > > Kerala Home Minister Kodiyeri Balakrishnan, who is also in New Delhi, said > the violence had nothing to do with the Lok Sabha election results announced > Saturday, adding he would return here at the earliest. > > Leader of Opposition Oommen Chandy of the Congress Sunday night told > reporters here that there was a lapse on the part of the police and a small > clash had flared up into a tragedy. > “A judicial inquiry has to be announced into the incident,” said Chandy. A > company of the Central Reserve Police Force has has been deployed in the > area and a group of the Rapid Action Force was on its way to the place, > officials said. Muslim organizations demanded massive shut down of > Thiruvananthapuram city to protest against irresponsible police firing. > > From rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com Fri May 22 14:38:59 2009 From: rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com (Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 14:38:59 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Biggest Police firing ever in Kerala.. In-Reply-To: <7271ec560905220206g775f93f0wb8fc4ea87759dad8@mail.gmail.com> References: <7271ec560905220206g775f93f0wb8fc4ea87759dad8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7271ec560905220208n52fa3765l60ba3d2056be7e9e@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi Date: Fri, May 22, 2009 at 2:36 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Biggest Police firing ever in Kerala.. To: Sudeep K S Cc: grey-youth-movement at googlegroups.com This is known as psuedo secular reporting in communal India, as Congress led UDF has won with bishops writing and urging all to vote for Congress, Madani urging all to vote for left led LDF, the reminder is grim of beirut, a city divided between the two faiths, still known as "secular" faiths. with followers like these who do not jesitate to kill each other, and our list members like rakesh jee and Anupam jee are "secular when they are safe in the place of dwelling.? These men talk of rape of women by goons of BJP, what are these emn who looted shops of muslims.? Regards, Rajen. On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 8:56 AM, Sudeep K S wrote: > ..and nobody is talking about it. > > My friend called me yesterday and told me about what can be called the > biggest ever Police firing that happened in Kerala a few days back. It > killed five people, and injured about 40 others. He was surprised that I > did > not even know about it. > > I have Mathrubhumi at home, my father is active in Kerala's political > scene, > I have journalist friends.. Nobody told me about it. > > May be nobody wants to talk about a "communal" incident. > > I did some googling and found some details. From interesting sources. > > "Islamic Terrorism" website says, > > "Muslims, Christians clash in Thiruvananthapuram Kerala, 5 killed, 38 > injured< > http://islamicterrorism.wordpress.com/2009/05/19/muslims-christians-clash-in-thiruvananthapuram-kerala-five-killed-38-injured/ > > > ". > > Sounds cheeky. But only when one gets to the fine print, it does tell so > much: > > "Securitymen in different uniforms stood guard in front of shops which > remained closed for the second day after the police firing to avert > communal > clashes claimed five lives." > > OK - so it is not the Islamic terrorists who killed five people. It was the > Police. The article goes on: > > "It all began on Saturday when a goon from Cheiryathura, a Christian belt, > tried to extort money from merchants at Bheemappally, a Muslim-dominated > region. After being manhandled by the locals, the goon, Shibu, rushed to > Cheriyathura only to return with a company of his men to retaliate. The > gang > from Cheriyathura set ablaze a fishing net at Bheemappally. > > Though the police intervened on Saturday night itself, they lowered their > guard assuming normalcy had returned. On Sunday afternoon, a group of youth > from Bheemappally stormed into Cheriyathura, hurling bombs at the people of > the rival side. The police opened fire, killing four people on the spot, as > the mob moved towards a local church. Another person succumbed to injuries > on Monday. Nearly 38 men have been injured in the incident.." > > New Kerala site says, > "Four people were killed in this Kerala capital Sunday after clashes > between > groups of two communities forced the police to open fire, an official > said." > > A Police firing that kills five people is not a joke. Not even in the > infamous Muthanga firing could match that. Yet, nobody seems to be > interested in taking up this issue, except for some Muslim groups (at the > risk of being branded communal). > > Congress-led UDF is busy celebrating victory, and CPM is busy finding > reasons for their wash-out. Muslim League has decided to speak about it > after three days (See news in today's > Hindu > ). > > New Indian Express is probably the only major news paper link that reported > the incident. (Again, with a funny title: Four killed in communal clashes > in > Kerala< > http://www.expressbuzz.com/edition/story.aspx?Title=Four+killed+in+communal+clashes+in+Kerala&artid=4nDYn9nESAE=&SectionID=1ZkF/jmWuSA=&MainSectionID=1ZkF/jmWuSA=&SEO=Kerala,+Bimapally&SectionName=X7s7i%7CxOZ5Y= > > > ). > > Then I saw Dr Abdul Salam's piece on grey youth mailing list. Nobody > responded to that mail on the list. > > -sudeep > > [also posted at > > http://sudeepsdiary.blogspot.com/2009/05/biggest-police-firing-ever-in-kerala.html > ] > > > On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 6:49 AM, Dr Abdul Salam > wrote: > > > Kerala Police fires at fishing community, four dead< > http://nchro.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=6847:kerala-police-fires-at-fishing-community-four-dead&catid=12:stateviolations&Itemid=7 > > > > > > > > < > http://nchro.org/index.php?view=article&catid=12:stateviolations&id=6847:kerala-police-fires-at-fishing-community-four-dead&format=pdf&option=com_content&Itemid=7 > > > > > > > > < > http://nchro.org/index.php?view=article&catid=12:stateviolations&id=6847:kerala-police-fires-at-fishing-community-four-dead&tmpl=component&print=1&layout=default&page=&option=com_content&Itemid=7 > > > > > > > > < > http://nchro.org/index.php?option=com_mailto&tmpl=component&link=aHR0cDovL25jaHJvLm9yZy9pbmRleC5waHA/b3B0aW9uPWNvbV9jb250ZW50JnZpZXc9YXJ0aWNsZSZpZD02ODQ3OmtlcmFsYS1wb2xpY2UtZmlyZXMtYXQtZmlzaGluZy1jb21tdW5pdHktZm91ci1kZWFkJmNhdGlkPTEyOnN0YXRldmlvbGF0aW9ucyZJdGVtaWQ9Nw== > > > > > > > > > > StateViolations > > < > http://nchro.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&id=12:stateviolations&layout=blog&Itemid=7 > > > > > > Four persons from the Muslim fishing community were killed when the > > Kerala police opened fire to end a clash between two groups in the > > Cheriyathura-Beemapally coastal area on the outskirts of the > > Thiruvananthapuram city on Sunday evening ( May 17, 2009). The dead as > > identified as Ahammed Saleem (50), Badusha (35), Syed Alavi (24), Abdul > > Hakkeem (27). 37 persons injured during police fire. Among three of them, > > Shafeeq (21), Sajeer (22), Ali (34) are having serious head injury. > > > > The clashes erupted after a local mafia boss called Shibu tried to extort > > money from a small restaurant belongs to Muslim fisherman community in > the > > area on Saturday. The extortionists were manhandled by the locals as a > > protest against mafia rule in the impoverished suburban area. The > criminal > > gang returned to the area with more people and started pelting stones at > > shops and nearby houses. They also torched boats and fishing nets and > > damaged shops in the area. Scores were injured as the attacks continued > on > > Sunday. The police force failed to arrest the mafia leader, Mr. Shibu, a > > notorious criminal and drug dealer, which resulted in mass resistance of > > fishing community. > > > > The irate crowd pelted stones at police demanding the arrest of mafia > > leader. Soon, the police, under Commissioner A P George, opened fire to > > disperse a violent mob assembled at the beach. But locals alleged that > > police fired at the crowd without warning. Police should have been able > to > > use tear gas or rubber bullet to disperse the crowd. But the police fired > at > > throat and chest of the dead and even by chasing the crowd from behind. > > While two bodies were removed to the medical college hospital, two others > > were kept in a house as community leaders were not handing them over to > the > > police, demanding a judicial probe. Police even denied access to medical > > facilities to the injured. Victims says that police was unnecessarily > trying > > to make the clashes as communal, while they were responding against > mafia > > - police nexus. > > > > Chief Minister V.S. Achuthanandan, who was in New Delhi, appealed to the > > people to remain calm. “Adequate compensation would be given to those > who > > have suffered damages and (the goevrnment) will do the needful for those > who > > lost their lives,” Achuthanandan said. N. Ramachandran Nair, the senior > > leader of Communist Party of India demanded strict action against police. > > > > Kerala Home Minister Kodiyeri Balakrishnan, who is also in New Delhi, > said > > the violence had nothing to do with the Lok Sabha election results > announced > > Saturday, adding he would return here at the earliest. > > > > Leader of Opposition Oommen Chandy of the Congress Sunday night told > > reporters here that there was a lapse on the part of the police and a > small > > clash had flared up into a tragedy. > > “A judicial inquiry has to be announced into the incident,” said Chandy. > A > > company of the Central Reserve Police Force has has been deployed in the > > area and a group of the Rapid Action Force was on its way to the place, > > officials said. Muslim organizations demanded massive shut down of > > Thiruvananthapuram city to protest against irresponsible police firing. > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Rajen. -- Rajen. From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Fri May 22 14:59:17 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 14:59:17 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Biggest Police firing ever in Kerala.. In-Reply-To: <7271ec560905220208n52fa3765l60ba3d2056be7e9e@mail.gmail.com> References: <7271ec560905220206g775f93f0wb8fc4ea87759dad8@mail.gmail.com> <7271ec560905220208n52fa3765l60ba3d2056be7e9e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Rajen jee I am out of chat in both Gmail and Google, and I didn't see the mail. I have gone through most of the links given in the mail, and this is very unfortunate to state here that a gang war between goons has been given a communal colour thanks to some hoodlums existing in the society. I must condemn this incident for the way it has occurred. And both the goons and the police are to some extent responsible for the incident turning so ugly. The goons should never have tried to give communal color. The police must be condemned in two major ways: firstly it should never have allowed the goons to play havoc in the society; secondly it should have used tear gas shells, firing in the air and lathicharge (there is a problem here because the police says it used tear gas shells whereas there are sources who state there are loopholes in this claim by the police and this is not true). At the same time, death in any such kind of form must be condemned. I don't have to get certificates of secularism from someone, least of all from you Mr. Rajen ji. To use Mr. Nitish Kumar's words: ' Please don't become the Vice Chancellor of the University of Secularism'. As for safe dwelling, probably people like you want conflicts to arise everywhere in the name of religion to see your ideology put in practice destroying the lives of my generation, the older generations and the coming generations. Which is what I don't want. As for the solution to this kind of menace, the simple problem is that of goons. There is no need to give communal color Mr. Rajen. The simple thing is to bring police reforms and make them accountable to the people, and let them function properly. Automatically the goons are in the jail and there is no problem. Where does religion come in this anyway? And as for faith, I don't comment on anyone's faith like you. Faith is personal and I respect it. It's religion (and those goons who act in national/regional/religious interests) which must be attacked, not faith. Regards Rakesh From c.anupam at gmail.com Fri May 22 21:50:07 2009 From: c.anupam at gmail.com (anupam chakravartty) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 21:50:07 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] plight of the muslim women and appeasement In-Reply-To: <934690.11799.qm@web39101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <934690.11799.qm@web39101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <341380d00905220920n2ada5c35o9998a2eac030c25a@mail.gmail.com> Dear Mr malik, I understand that it will be a little weird for 12 year-old to learn social and economic complicacies. however, this is because act of discrimination with the help of dominant discourse is so deeprooted in many psyches. you would not believe but parents at a certain city of gujarat every year, during the kite festival fight along with their children over kites, and often it becomes a communal riot. going against such dominant discourse (in this case, brahminical) and taking a radical step of what many political pundits have labelled as positive discrimination, is perhaps the only antidote and would act as catalyst for the creation of a just and equal society. can you tell me of a way to a establish a just social order by not adopting discriminatory policy ( even at the minutest level)? i once again reiterate by doling out of crores of rupees to the betterment of any minority or socially discriminated class is not useful unless these groups get back social honour and position in the society, where they do not be in ghetto. strangely, in this country where discrimination by dominant class is continuing (as anyone can count hundred of incident for your record) despite these policies are put into practice. although what you have raised is an important question if one consider the broad based policy of reservation. however, you tend to highlight only a certain class of people, which is problemmatic. similarly, i dont know what makes you point out exclusively that you have a problem with schemes to be named with a muslim name. which is not really case, all the weapons have been named after hindu gods, so are your ships. in haryana, parks are named after devilal. and to your that most of the major stadiums have been named after jawaharlal nehru. so mr malik, unless you have broader argument against what a lot of people call positive discrimination, i dont see a point why we should even discuss about the one particular community. i find it extremely discriminatory. thanks anupam On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 11:13 AM, A.K. Malik wrote: > > Dear Mr Chakravartty, > Since the info has been more or less a first hand from > the Schools,my only objection had been the effect of such moves on the > tender minds of kid girls.You can't make a girl of 10-12 years understand > why a muslim girl whose parents are well-off gets Rs 300 and she whose > parents hardly able to get even full food for the day doesn't get it.If the > money is to be paid, let it be paid to all girl students irrespective of > caste creed and religion or it must be based on economic criterion again > irrespective of caste and creed as also of religion. > I have even a problem with the Scheme to be named with a MUslim name as > also I oftenly find problem with all SC/STs places being named > Gandhi/Ambedkar Sadans etc and never by Jawahar/Patel or similar ones. > > (A.K.MALIK) > > > --- On Wed, 5/20/09, anupam chakravartty wrote: > > > From: anupam chakravartty > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] plight of the muslim women and appeasement > > To: "sarai list" > > Date: Wednesday, May 20, 2009, 4:13 PM > > Dear Mr Malik, > > > > > > > > Clarifications first: > > > > > > > > The funds for the education and employment for the backward > > minorities would > > be made available through GOI. Maulana Azad Trust’s > > corpus has been > > increased to Rs 500 crores. ( > > > http://www.indianexpress.com/news/education-jobs-plan-panel-focus-for-muslim-uplift/19044/0 > > ) > > > > > > > > To reason for reservation in any form, I would say that it > > is a policy of > > involving more and more people in decision-making process > > so that a > > composite form of governance can be created. If > > reservations mean benefits > > it also means additional responsibility. Prosperity, which > > in this case, is > > a derivative of the function of reservation, actually has > > an added baggage > > of roles, especially in India. These roles are to be > > fulfilled by those who > > avail what we call reservation as these roles traditionally > > were performed > > by just one set of people who are endowed with economic > > power with and > > therefore they were also expected to have a say in the > > functioning of the > > government and taking large scale policy decision. > > > > > > > > I might be contradicting myself, but the reservations are > > not just about > > economic prosperity. It is a means of social empowerment > > too. Infact social > > empowerment is the basis for the reservations in India. > > While economic > > prosperity is a result of individual strengths, social > > prosperity and > > recognition is a form of collective strength. It is not the > > case that social > > prosperity could be gained only through economic gains, but > > vice versa – as > > in you need an atmosphere without any discrimination than > > only you can work > > better. > > > > > > > > In case of Muslims, more than the economic disparity > > between the rich and > > the poor, it is social relevance of the community that > > needs to be addressed > > from within the community. Although reforms in Muslims have > > to intrinsic and > > inclusive, it cannot be seen in the light of the reform > > movements in other > > religions. Therefore, there is such an impetus on resolving > > the issues of > > education and employment especially in case of the Muslim > > girls. > > > > > > > > Like you have pointed out that extra Rs 300 given to the > > Muslim girls, I > > take this opportunity to point towards 14 per cent > > reservation for Brahmins > > and other upper castes ( > > http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl2514/stories/20080718251403300.htm) > > that > > have been clearly called economically backward upper > > castes, even though the > > most backward people would be tribals in Banswada > > district. > > > > > > > > Thanks anupam > > > > > > On 5/20/09, Rakesh Iyer > > wrote: > > > > > > Dear Malik jee > > > > > > If you wish to say that benefits like reservation must > > be based on economic > > > criteria, to quite a substantial extent (leaving aside > > SC and ST), I would > > > agree, as it is not going to help if only the affluent > > among the upper > > > castes, the backward castes or the Muslims or other > > minorities are getting > > > admissions and posts based on reservations. It's the > > poor and the > > > downtrodden among these communities which require > > reservation. > > > > > > However, when we do provide such reservation, then we > > have to ensure that > > > these people have the capacity to get absorbed through > > such reservations, > > > otherwise it's going to be of no use. For example, if > > the poor can't avail > > > of education even upto 10th std, then what is the use > > of providing them > > > reservation in IIT's and IIM's ? Therefore, it's time > > we debate upon the > > > idea of reservation to bring about benefits to > > different communities. The > > > same argument also extends for SC's and ST's. > > > > > > At the same time, one must not forget that one of the > > benefits of > > > introducing reservation was to increase national > > unity, and whether one > > > likes it or not, this is something which can't be > > debated. If there would > > > have been no reservation for SC's and ST's too, these > > would also have felt > > > useless and would have joined themselves to causes > > which indulge in violence > > > (at least a part have done so through Naxalism), and I > > feel the Naxalite > > > problem may have been greater, along with violence due > > to caste > > > discrimination and casteism. > > > > > > I have no problems with reservation as a move, it's > > just that I accept your > > > point that reservation for any caste or religion or > > community must be > > > debated, and the previous effects of reservation must > > be studied while > > > undertaking any new reservations to ensure that these > > actually turn > > > effective. And if that means reservation for poor > > across all castes and > > > communities has to be provided, so be it. > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > Rakesh > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > > city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > From kokopeli at gmail.com Sat May 23 02:33:11 2009 From: kokopeli at gmail.com (Sujata & Samantak) Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 02:33:11 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Javed continues to write - an inspiring testimony Message-ID: <556b1d6b0905221403n4b5602a6m8c46c4838f806068@mail.gmail.com> Dear All, Do please have a look at this testimony from Javed, the journalist who was assaulted by the Chhattisgarh police since he was around when the Salwa Judum, STF and CRPF (in the presence of SDM) were busy demolishing the Vanvasi Chetna Ashram at Dantewada. You can also write to Javed at antijaved at yahoo.co.uk Regards, Samantak On the 17th of May, 2009, during the demolition of the Vanvasi Chetna Ashram, I was taking pictures and the instant the archway of the Ashram’s gate was broken by the bulldozer, I was picked up by a policeman, had my camera confiscated, then beaten repeatedly by some CRPF personnel and some members of the STF. I was then locked up in a police van. Some thirty minutes later, two policemen entered the van, that now had about three other people, and then taken out into the open. Now I was beaten again by three-four policemen by lathis, specifically from the STF who started to abuse me, by saying: ‘Saala *********, tum humare khilaf likhta hai?’ (You *********, you write against the police?) ‘Tu Badepalli gaya tha na, *********?’ (You had gone to Badepalli, hadn’t you, ********?) Eventually, I was let back into the van and kept there for another few hours in the summer heat. I was repeatedly abused by passing policemen yet also treated kindly by a few sympathetic policemen from the CGP (Chattisgarh State Police). I was then taken to the police station and released after a medical check-up under police supervision that didn’t even bother to check for any bruises. Now, to the police. All you have done is helped motivate me, and offered me more clarity than before. I shall not pack my bags and leave, and even if I do, I shall be back. Your lathi-wielding policemen actually ‘complimented’ me, mentioning the stories that I’ve done as they beat me, and I was happy that someone was reading my work. In fact, the mention of Badepalli by the policeman who beat me, where 19 homes were burnt on the 26th of April, 2009, is really the first compliment I’ve gotten for that story. But before there are anymore incidents as such, when your ‘boys’ think it’s necessary to beat up journalists who delve for the truth and listen to the whispers of a suffering people, I believe the time has come for a little clarity between us, and you must know what I am doing here. You, are, my police. I do not pay my taxes for you to kill villagers and burn villages without the proper conduct of law. I do not accept that you earn the right to live in the grey world, believing you have the right to do as you wish, as long as it is for the greater good. Yet what is this greater good? This funny little thing called Law & Order. There is no such thing as the greater good and I don’t give you the right to be the defenders of denial, of the status quo that ensures that people remain ignorant, unaware, apathetic, and live a meaningless insecure egocentric life in the pursuit of wealth, self-indulgence, power with the daily dosage of IPL matches, saas-bahu shows and parties, when more than half the country starves its own soul for a single meal. I believe in shattering the mirrors of the status quo with a hammer and you wish to protect it. I believe people have the right to dissent, to protest and to ensure that the state does not get away with the power, that we, the citizens, have bequeathed upon it. And this protest, this dissent has every right to exist in a democracy. The stone that is hurled at the police ordered in to curb an angry mob who’ve been betrayed by an incompetent or corrupt administration, is democracy. I believe in the Rule Of Law, as flawed it is, as absurd it can seem, and you believe you are it, when you are not. I believe the Indian public has every right to know what it’s police does in our name. And whether you can live with your actions or not, I can’t. Yet does this make me a Naxalite sympathizer? Maybe to you, but I know where my conscience lies when it comes to the actions of men who give themselves unlimited power to do as they wish. There’s no secret that the Naxalites are also capable of brutality, authoritarianism and the very kind of actions that your SPOs have become infamous for. The Naxalites are as brutal and I am not going to hide the fact that I disagree with their methods, their violence and even their policies. I have heard the other voices of the people – the very tribals whom the Naxalites apparently fight for. I have heard their anger, and I have seen them cry about their helplessness. Bastar possesses it’s own world at times, when concepts like human rights, Marxist theory and development become completely irrelevant as a man is being hacked to death. I have spent more than 50 days in Bastar, and spent lots of time around policemen and SPOs, and each time, a certain thought would pass my mind - about them getting killed by IDPs, or by the Naxalites, and I would shudder each time. This is where I can even understand the patriarchal love of the police superiors regarding their juniors, their boys. The possibilities of a violent death hangs over their heads. And that is not a fate I’d bequeath upon even the evilest of men in the world. And not a single ounce of anger I have for the policemen who beat me at the Ashram. It is their power that I have loathing for. And I am aware of the moral burden of my work: reporting atrocity only fuels more atrocity. And the war between the police and the Naxalites is acted out on who possesses moral authority, played out onto the stage called the press and public opinion. Yet does keeping quiet make anything any better? If I don’t report a single killing, does it cease to exist? If I don’t take pictures of a burnt village, does it cease to exist? If I don’t report a disappeared 12 year old girl, does she cease to exist? No, there are the people who lost their loved ones, and there are the people who live and die in those villages. Their sadness and their rage will exist, whether I am there or not, whether they, the many brave and dedicated reporters, are there, or not. Truth, is always more important than chaos. We will write, because we know that if we keep quiet now, we shall all pay for it tomorrow. And we shall bring out the voices of people who possess real moral authority – the villagers who just want to live and want nothing to do with the police or the Naxalites or the Salwa Judum, yet circumstances are such that they have no choice but to take sides. And you had visited the village of Samalwar, and slapped people around because they spoke to me, because they helped me write a story on a fake encounter and the cold-blooded murder of a 19 year-old boy. These are not the actions of a police, this is, in simple, goonda-giri. These are signs that further manifest India as a Police State, and further manifest that the Police in Bastar merely exists to repress the Adivasis of Bastar. And of course, I shall not fall prey to the laziness of prejudice. Truth is, that even as your STF were beating me, there were certain policemen who protected me from further beatings and harassment. There are no words to express my gratitude to them, not just to protect me, but to remind me about their own humanity. I would hope, as far as hope goes, that those young boys never lose their sense of decency, and their conscience, being actors in a play that wants them to lose their souls, and in the name of duty, learn the value of brutality. All I could offer them, for their kindness, is a thank you, and I know there was no other way for me to show my gratitude to them, for fear that their superiors would reprimand them for being human beings. And I hope, as far as hope goes, that they don’t fall victims to Naxalite violence. Not all policemen are guilty of atrocity and this is an indictment to all forms of prejudice – we must learn to value individuals, not look at things as a whole and condemn it all because that would make life so easy and simple. Prejudice, in the end, is merely lazy thinking. I don’t look at the actions of the police as indicative of the entire police forces character. Most are merely following orders, and many are slaves to a paycheque, others are trapped in catch-22 situations where they can neither fight the counter-productive policies of their superiors nor remain public servants who work for the people. Many have seen their friends and comrades die, and are blinded by hatred. And most find it hard to play the game and still keep their conscience, or in simple, their posts. Yet we find ourselves as antagonists and this is merely the beginning. There are chances that we meet again under violent circumstances, and your conscience-less violent gorillas would come after me again. Well, let them. Yet, I do have one request, I myself, feel that I didn’t deserve those beatings for one reason alone – I don’t think I wrote enough, or took enough pictures, and I request that my next beating take place after I have actually done a significant amount of work. Thank you. Regards, Javed Iqbal Freelance Photojournalist From oishiksircar at gmail.com Sat May 23 10:07:35 2009 From: oishiksircar at gmail.com (OISHIK SIRCAR) Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 10:07:35 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Call for submissions: Kinaara Magazine, Kolkata, India Message-ID: <62cba67a0905222137x1783eca7x70e9eef04ae18883@mail.gmail.com> *Kinaara* is an upcoming web-based literary magazine for the youth in South Asia and the diaspora. *Kinaara* is a dream and an experiment by a group of young people. It is also an attempt to look for a common South Asian cultural awareness where we share our opinions and artistic expressions with other young people like us. *The first edition of Kinaara will be published on July 1, 2009.* The permanent website address of the magazine will also be released with it. Those who are on Facebook are welcome to join the Kinaara group at http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=198526555531 to keep track of developments. There is also a journal at http://kinaaranews.blogspot.com/ where all the team members will update on the work they are doing. --- *WHAT WE'RE LOOKING FOR::* - Original, exciting and thought-provoking work from people below 30 with a South Asian connection. - Anything that makes our brains tingle! Essays, articles, poetry, short stories, comics, photo essays, artwork, ramblings, a standalone chapter from the novel you're writing... If you think the world needs to see it, we're interested in it. - If you have a work or idea that doesn't fit any of the above categories, write to us directly and we'll get back to you. *UPCOMING EDITIONS::* *JULY 2009:* No theme, everything welcome. Deadline is June 15. *AUGUST 2009:* Tentative theme is CONFLICT. Interpret broadly, as long as you remember the focus. Deadline is July 15. *HOW TO SUBMIT:: * - For now, we are receiving all correspondence at kinaaramail at gmail.com. - Writing is best sent as an MS Word (.doc) or Text (.txt) document. If it isn't too long, pasting in the mail body works too. - Images are loved as JPEG (.jpg) files that don't exceed the size of 500 kbs each. - Mention your name as you'd like to be credited. Add a two-sentence introduction to yourself. We're interested in knowing where you're from and what you like doing, but you're free to fill your introduction with anything you want to tell. -- Please help us spread the word by passing on this message to your friends, list-servs or just about anyone you think will appreciate it. Thank you, Monidipa Mondal, Student, Dept. of English, Jadavpur University, Calcutta, on behalf of the Kinaara team. -- OISHIK SIRCAR oishiksircar at gmail.com oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca From jeebesh at sarai.net Sat May 23 13:52:30 2009 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh) Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 13:52:30 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Things are changing Message-ID: <4039A686-1AED-44AC-A2B6-05EE72572230@sarai.net> dear All, Yesterday evening Parismita Singh's first graphic novel "Hotel at the end of the world" was released. The book is remarkable. What was most heartening was that the evening was mediated by three other graphic novelist Orijit, Sarnath and Viswhajyoti. Orijit and Sarnath meticulously took us through Parismita's work and opened out the intricate thought process, play with time, cultural resources, craft etc that has gone in making this graphic novel. Vishwa then had a very gentle conversation with Parismita. Why am i writing about this evening in this list, given that the city is filled with book releases these days?. This evening is important. Here were a evening where fellow peers got together to bring to an eager public a value of a work. This was done with dignity, lightness, rigor and warmth. A true act of peer-ship and publicness together. In a society marked by knowledge hierarchies, peer envy, and bitter polemics this gesture was striking and moving. If taken with seriousness this way of being with peers and publics can bring in a range of celebratory energies. An earlier news item a month back said 400 mumbai based film personnel (mostly technicians) got together to felicitate Resool Kutty and some went with him to the airport to see him off for the BAFTA film award ceremony. What a lovely way to appreciate someone. That was also a very rare event in the present competitive world. Things maybe changing and new values may be slowly asserting themselves. warmly jeebesh From senpriya at gmail.com Sat May 23 14:40:49 2009 From: senpriya at gmail.com (Priya Sen) Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 14:40:49 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Things are changing In-Reply-To: <4039A686-1AED-44AC-A2B6-05EE72572230@sarai.net> References: <4039A686-1AED-44AC-A2B6-05EE72572230@sarai.net> Message-ID: <8c9003440905230210m5f778abdn5089ebface8931cb@mail.gmail.com> Dear Jeebesh, Thanks for underscoring this moment. It did feel significant for all the reasons you wrote about. Such times are rarely articulated or seen as the markers we need to look out for - to look forward to, and be encouraged by. So much better than becoming cynical and losing the very things that are required in order to live creative lives, or creatively live life. .. Parismita's book release had a wonderful sense of ease about it, that the genuine and quiet encouragement from her peers also made possible. And I really hope you're right when you say 'things maybe changing'! It will make all the difference! Bestest, Priya On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 1:52 PM, Jeebesh wrote: > dear All, > > Yesterday evening Parismita Singh's first graphic novel "Hotel at the > end of the world" was released. The book is remarkable. > > What was most heartening was that the evening was mediated by three > other graphic novelist Orijit, Sarnath and Viswhajyoti. Orijit and > Sarnath meticulously took us through Parismita's work and opened out > the intricate thought process, play with time, cultural resources, > craft etc that has gone in making this graphic novel. Vishwa then had > a very gentle conversation with Parismita. > > Why am i writing about this evening in this list, given that the city > is filled with book releases these days?. > > This evening is important. Here were a evening where fellow peers got > together to bring to an eager public a value of a work. This was done > with dignity, lightness, rigor and warmth. A true act of peer-ship and > publicness together. > > In a society marked by knowledge hierarchies, peer envy, and bitter > polemics this gesture was striking and moving. If taken with > seriousness this way of being with peers and publics can bring in a > range of celebratory energies. > > An earlier news item a month back said 400 mumbai based film personnel > (mostly technicians) got together to felicitate Resool Kutty and some > went with him to the airport to see him off for the BAFTA film award > ceremony. What a lovely way to appreciate someone. That was also a > very rare event in the present competitive world. > > Things maybe changing and new values may be slowly asserting themselves. > > warmly > jeebesh > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Priya Sen Sarai-CSDS 29, Rajpur Road, Civil Lines Delhi - 110054 priya at sarai.net From monica at sarai.net Sat May 23 15:27:18 2009 From: monica at sarai.net (Monica Narula) Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 15:27:18 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Happy Sunday :) Library and Garbage bins In-Reply-To: References: <341380d00905110349r9511b39i146b97445c2f52ae@mail.gmail.com> <748635.42842.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1646DD34-E908-45F0-A39B-1B7BED63CB7B@sarai.net> Reading the paper everyday is like reading a litany of those dead because of sewers. So many fall in and so many more die trying to save them. Indeed: DJB will tell you it is impossible to relay and fix the sewers. Why so? M Monica Narula Raqs Media Collective Sarai-CSDS www.raqsmediacollective.net www.sarai.net On 14-May-09, at 3:00 PM, Navayana Publishing wrote: > Dear All > > Am coming a bit late into this. > > Jebeesh had raised two issues: libraries and their poor state and way > garbage bins are designed so badly. I was wondering how and why this > discussion list took up the library question more eagerly and has > nothing to > say on the question of garbage and the way we dispose it. This > perhaps owes > to the fact that millions of unnamed/ unknown dalits out there who > do the > job of garbage disposal without any recourse to decent gear or > equipment. I > had written exentesively on this in Tehelka > series >nearly > two years ago. Our garbage bins/ disposal sites are ill-designed > because the designers look down on any labour that involves dirtying > one's > hands; and there are anyway faceless dalits to do the job. There's no > concept of social design in India. Which probably explains why have > such > shoddy urban planning as such. > > While some Rs 50,000 crores is being spent on the Metro in Delhi, > the network > of 5,600 km of sewers with about 1.5 lakh manholes, managed by the > DJB is > pathetically designed. It needs to be yanked out, redesigned and > relaid. But > no one thinks it necessary to do so. There are no pressure groups > for that. > DJB will tell you it is impossible to do so. Why? > > Anand > www.navayana.org > > > On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 5:32 PM, Kshmendra Kaul >wrote: > >> Dear Anupam >> >> Thanks. >> >> Your blessings would have been more than enough since I have no >> belief >> invested in any such entity called God (or by whichever other name) >> >> Take care >> >> Kshmendra >> >> --- On Mon, 5/11/09, anupam chakravartty wrote: >> >> From: anupam chakravartty >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Happy Sunday :) Library and Garbage bins >> To: "sarai list" >> Date: Monday, May 11, 2009, 4:19 PM >> >> thanks for clarifying kshmendra. may god bless you. the idea of a >> temple-library is unique/ >> >> anupam >> >> >> On 5/11/09, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: >>> >>> Dear Anupam >>> >>> I put "strip" within quotes as I was not sure whether >> "strip" is the >>> appropiate word for that art-form. >>> >>> It was not meant to be an 'attack' on you or >> 'contradicting' you >>> >>> Kshmendra >>> >>> --- On *Sun, 5/10/09, anupam chakravartty * >> wrote: >>> >>> >>> From: anupam chakravartty >>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Happy Sunday :) Library and Garbage bins >>> To: "sarai list" >>> Date: Sunday, May 10, 2009, 8:06 PM >>> >>> thanks kshmendra but why have u attached quotes to the word strip. >>> i dont >>> understand. pray tell. >>> >>> On 5/10/09, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: >>>> >>>> Anupam >>>> Delightful 'strip'. Thanks >>>> >>>> Rakesh >>>> Public libraries would serve an excellent purpose. The poor and >> homeless >>>> could find temporary refuge in them, getting shielded from the cold >> and >>>> protected from heat. >>>> >>>> Only problem in that might be along the lines of the news story >> "US >>> library >>>> bans 'offensive bodily odours' from entering!" >>> >>> >> http://in.news.yahoo.com/139/20090415/959/tod-us-library-bans-offensive-bodily-odo.html >>>> >>>> Wonder how 'library going elite' (for elite they would be in >>> comparison) >>>> would react to the poor and homeless in the 'public space' of >> a >>> public >>>> library >>>> >>>> Kshmendra >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> --- On *Sun, 5/10/09, anupam chakravartty * >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> From: anupam chakravartty >>>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Happy Sunday :) Library and Garbage bins >>>> To: "sarai list" >>>> Date: Sunday, May 10, 2009, 5:13 PM >>>> >>>> Here's a little library's story. >>>> http://www.soundofdrowning.com/lib.html >>>> >>>> regards anupam >>>> >>>> >>>> On 5/10/09, Rakesh Iyer wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Dear Jeebesh (and all) >>>>> >>>>> While the heat in this list could have been tackled by means of >> more >>>>> personal chats and more respect of both sides' views from >> the >>> other >>>>> sides, here I wish to express my views on the first issue you >> have >>>>> raised. >>>>> >>>>> Any issue, be it water, roads, health, education, or even a >> public >>>>> library, can be addressed. However, there are umpteen points >>> regarding >>>>> as to why it is not an issue. And they are numerous in our >> system of >>>>> democracy (or as in Gulaal they say, it's just autocracy in >> the >>> name >>>>> of democracy). >>>>> >>>>> The first issue here is about the way our democratic system >> works. It >>>>> is a system which is half full and half empty, meaning that it >> is 50% >>>>> democratic and 50% not, if one were to quote Ramachandra Guha >> from >>> his >>>>> book 'India After Gandhi'. And it certainly is. We do >> have a >>>> system >>>>> which has elections and the transition of power after elections >> is >>>>> also smooth. However, that's it. Our system begins and ends >> with >>>>> elections. After that, nobody cares. We never look at things >> beyond >>>>> elections. Any criticism of a government takes place only with >> the >>>>> point of view of elections. >>>>> >>>>> What this means is that only those issues which are important >> from >>> the >>>>> election point of view, would be addressed. But the question >> arises, >>>>> as to then which issues are important, if they are there at all? >>> Here, >>>>> our media and the grassroots are totally at crossroads. The >> media >>>>> feels the PM or the CM at the state level are more important >> issues >>>>> than say water supply, health or education. On the other hand, >> the >>>>> candidates realize that is not necessarily the case, and they >>>>> concentrate on the kind of developmental works undertaken and >> some or >>>>> the other sops being given. >>>>> >>>>> And what are these developmental works actually? The issues of >>>>> livelihood. The issues of roti, kapda and makan. And if one may >> add >>> to >>>>> it, in a certain way they are related to bijli, sadak aur paani. >>> These >>>>> are the issues which are uppermost in the minds of the people. >> One >>>>> must understand that with the kind of society we are, a caste >> and >>>>> religion-biased society, where Brahmins wouldn't eat with >> Muslims >>> or >>>>> Dalits, where now even the OBC's live separately from them >> and >>> where >>>>> inter-caste marriages are even now abhorred, at least in rural >> areas, >>>>> the kind of politicians who would emerge would also concentrate >> only >>>>> on giving doles to their supporters or caste/religion members as >> cash >>>>> or some kind of incentive. >>>>> >>>>> With the competition between people of different castes and >> religions >>>>> for such govt. doles and rewards like jobs, rather than them >> fighting >>>>> together for a common cause (long back this happened under >>> Gandhi's >>>>> movements), and with the kind of society we are (where people >> revel >>> in >>>>> having contacts with the powerful and the rich rather than >> following >>>>> rules), all want a common minimum level of existence, from where >>>>> education is excluded. >>>>> >>>>> Also, no political party has been imaginative enough to put >> health >>> and >>>>> education as basic issues in their campaigns and trying to >> corner the >>>>> incumbent governments either during elections or during other >> times >>>>> through mass based movements. Neither have non-political >>> organizations >>>>> played a successful role in this part during such times to >> ensure >>> that >>>>> such issues are addressed, which does not mean that they >> haven't >>>>> tried; it simply means they haven't tried enough or the >> results >>> are >>>>> not enough. >>>>> >>>>> People in general also have little patience to understand the >>>>> complexity of issues. That is why we have experts to understand >> them. >>>>> But one must remember that things should also be made palatable >> to >>> the >>>>> electorate to back you. In this case, Manmohan Singh is a huge >>>>> failure, precisely because he has never contested an election >>> himself. >>>>> And Advani may have an advantage here mainly because he has won >> a Lok >>>>> Sabha election before this at least, so he could understand >> possibly >>>>> how to make an issue and its solution palatable to the public. >> (This >>>>> is a possibility, not necessarily the actuality). >>>>> >>>>> The second issue we have forgotten is in our society who is >> doing >>>>> what. The poor don't have the power to actually undertake >>> movements on >>>>> their own and fight a battle which can yield results. I >> don't >>> mean to >>>>> say that the poor can't undertake movements. The poor in >> many >>> states >>>>> may have actually done so, but one must remember that in >> today's >>>>> times, when our politicians are image-conscious, things which >> are not >>>>> popular are not going to make much headway. Therefore, one must >>>>> realize that unless such things are popular or in the mainstream >>>>> media, it is very difficult to get the point across. >>>>> >>>>> Moreover, the poor are more concerned with their livelihoods, >> which >>> is >>>>> the most important issue for them. Things like library are >> non-issues >>>>> from their point of view. >>>>> >>>>> The rich on the other hand do have the power, so also the middle >>>>> class. The media is also on this side. However, we have tended >> to >>>>> concentrate more on issues which are not going to help the poor >> at >>>>> all. Forget that, we have not even concentrated on issues which >> can >>>>> help the society at large. Even in the voting campaigns, people >> are >>>>> being encouraged to vote. But the moot point remains this: if >> all the >>>>> candidates are corrupt, what is the point of voting, even if for >> the >>>>> least corrupt candidate? After all, corruption be it of Re. 1 or >>> lakhs >>>>> can and should not be tolerated. If terrorism is not tolerated, >> how >>>>> come corruption is tolerated? >>>>> >>>>> Similarly, Hindutva seems also to be an issue going by some >> great >>>>> Rediff articles and views expressed on them. Malls and removal >> of >>>>> slums are issues, even though people don't try to understand >> at >>> all >>>>> the situational changes which can take place by having malls at >>>>> certain places, or even the problems in slums and how they can >> be >>>>> corrected without removing them. And of course, we have some >> other >>>>> nonsense things to talk about. >>>>> >>>>> Conclusion: >>>>> >>>>> The library is a public good, and ultimately the library will >> benefit >>>>> the public. The problem is that the rich don't want to fight >> for >>> it as >>>>> they think it's useless to involve themselves in such fights >>> which are >>>>> unprofitable (or non-money yielding). The poor don't fight >> for it >>> as >>>>> they have more important issues to look at. The media >> doesn't >>> take it >>>>> up as it's not a 'TRP-giving' news to be looked at, >> or it >>> is >>>> too >>>>> serious. And our politicians being image-conscious, believe that >>>>> these are not the things which will fetch them votes. >>>>> >>>>> So the library is a non-starter in our cities. >>>>> >>>>> And so, we don't have spaces in public to debate with on a >>> personal >>>>> level by and large. >>>>> >>>>> Regards >>>>> >>>>> Rakesh >>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >> with >>>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>>> To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>> List archive: >>> >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in >>>> the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: >> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in >>> the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: >>> >>> >>> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in >> the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: > > > > > -- > www.navayana.org > > Navayana > 120, Ground Floor > Shahpur Jat > New Delhi 110017 > > Landline: +91-11-26494795 > Mobile: +91-9971433117 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sat May 23 18:39:07 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 06:09:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] "Shock & awe on Hindutva Web sites" - B Raman Message-ID: <359300.50769.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> The article being reproduced is by B Raman.   What is equally interesting and quite factual is a comment posted against the article:   QUOTE Huge effort by Mr. Raman.. by Devadatta Bhaumik on May 20, 2009 03:36 PM   With due respect to Mr. Raman, he must have scrounged and scoured to produce these gems from the Hindutva websites.   Normally these sites are full of crude material denouncing: Hindus who do not agree with their sectarian outlook, Christians, Muslims, Westerners, and anyone arguing for religious harmony.   They are full of crudely written chauvinist comments which in civilized societies would be classified as hate speech bordering on racist/ extremist ideas. These websites advocate religious fundamentalism, hatred, violence.   They are utterly humorless, full of a sneering attitude, inferiority complex, and are characterized by violence of language and advocacy of cruelty against dissenters.   It is frightening to read the stuff written in these sites and these sites represent the terrible dumping down of human intellect.   It is estimated there are about 600 of these poison-spreaders on the net, there are even some specializing in vilifying particular religions, culture, class of people. It is a hate-hell out there. It must have taken Mr. Raman a huge effort to sift those sensible remarks from the mount of filth available.. UNQUOTE   Kshmendra       "Shock & awe on Hindutva Web sites" - B Raman   There has been a lot of discussion going on for the last 12 hours or more on pro-Hindutva Web sites in India and abroad about the Bharatiya Janata Party's stunning failure to do well in the election to the Lok Sabha, and the Congress party's dramatic success.   The pro-Hindutva elements, which regularly visit and post on these Web sites, are in an astonishing state of shock. There is more introspection already going on on these web sites than in New Delhi and state capitals, and there is more loud thinking than in the endless debates on our television channels.   It is more interesting and educative to read these postings than to listen to the blah-blah of the spokesmen of different parties and the so-called analysts who have congregated in New Delhi.   As one goes through these Web sites, one is struck by the admiration of many pro-Hindutva elements over the way the Congress has given a youthful image to the party and over the quality of the intellect and powers of articulation of the Congress's youth brigade. There is a grudging admiration even for Rahul Gandhi. Some admit that he has made an impact on the nation as a whole. Others insist that his impact is confined to Uttar Pradesh.   Many have compared the Congress's youthful image to the tired and ageing image of the Hindutva leaders. Where are the young people in the BJP, the post-ers ask. The majority agree that L K Advani was a bad choice to lead the election campaign. They allege that instead of surrounding himself with youthful faces and intellect, he surrounded himself with old pensioners from different government services and the armed forces who were unable to read the mind of the Indian youth.   A perusal of many of these postings shows that the angry pro-Hindutva elements do not look upon younger BJP leaders like Arun Jaitley, Sushma Swaraj, Arun Shourie etc as representing the newly rising Indian youth. They dismiss them as middle-aged backroom manipulators and not genuine representatives of young India.   Many of the postings say Advani made the election campaign a personality-based one and not an issue-based one, which was a serious mistake. Interestingly and significantly, many admit that the election has shown that Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi has no national stature. The fact that he has been able to galvanise Gujaratis in Gujarat and outside does not mean that he will be able to galvanise the rest of India.   They feel one of the BJP's biggest problems is that it has not been able to produce a leader of national stature after Atal Bihari Vajpayee. It has produced a number of good regional leaders, but they are not in a position to expand their appeal beyond their region and beyond their respective communities.   I am reproducing below some examples of the kind of comments I picked up from my browsing:   1. 'I think BJP should dismantle, and regroup under a new name, new leadership, with a bit more conviction (I mean the mental kind, not legal) and spine. Bottom line: The BJP does not impress Hindus any more, and it manages to frighten non-Hindus. Not a combination to win India.'   2. 'How do old people like Advani answer to the aspirations of the youth and also how can they 'connect' to a grandfatherly figure when a much older figure like me sees him as an anachronism? Are you going to inspire the youth so that they will vote for Advani in 2014? I see it in simple terms: Manmohan Singh kept Advani engaged while the Congress youth brigade engaged the voters. This is a classic military tactic though I don't believe the Congress worked it out as a strategy. But that was the effect and people should learn from it and plan for the future.   'What worked in the 80s will not work with the voters today many of whom were not born then or were small children. The electorate is not static. Are you going to take them back to the 80s? Also, the BJP is being ill-served by some of its 'intellectuals', who talk smoothly on TV and score debating points, but have no clue about the electorate. This is soothsaying, not problem solving.'   'A defeat of this magnitude is due to a fundamental shift, not minor issues like whether Modi or Vajpayee would have made a better speaker. I already see futile talk that BJP made a tactical error by bringing in Narendra Modi as speaker and so forth. This is like a drowning man clutching at straws. This shows that the BJP doesn't know what hit them -- the youth brigade. Where is a BJP youth brigade that can engage Rahul, Sachin Pilot, Jyotiraditya Scindia and so forth? Why did the BJP fail to cultivate them even with its vast cadre? It has five years to focus on this issue.'   'Bringing up a cadre of young leaders should be the first priority of BJP-RSS. It should allow them some freedom and not put them in an ideological straitjacket. That will nip talent in the bud. My concern is more for future generations than the fortunes of any political party. Where are the future leaders? I hope people are listening. I will bring this up with some people I know and also mention it in a couple of presentations.'   3. 'The BJP has to be a party for all communities if it has to be a truly national party. A party that has India's interests as its priority and delivers on development will have no problems getting the support of a large section of Christians and Muslims. All that the BJP has to do is remove the institutional bias against Hindus that exists in government circles. That's all Hindus ask of them.'   4.'I am not a Hindu though I have Hindu heritage. I was looking forward to INC's defeat mostly because I vehemently am opposed to the idea of dynasty. India is a republic not a monarchy. I am seriously disappointed by the disastrous performance of BJP.'   'You are in the trenches against an enemy more powerful and more organised moving against you and as you are running low on ammunition, you don't want traitors in your rank. You also don't want ultra patriots among you who might do serious damage to your battle plan. It is almost like giving the enemy your ammo stock even while you are running low yourself. Varun Gandhi played that spoiler. He may have made a tactical error in judgement but the moment the national and international media caught that it brought about strategic implication. Sadly, the BJP's reaction was hew and haw without clear and concise action/reaction.'   'Remember how George W Bush disowned Trent Lott? That is what leadership is. Does not matter how charismatic a person is and how popular he/she might be but the moment he/she steps out of line, he/she however capable must be gone. In 1991 the deputy commander of all US forces arrayed against Iraq made a statement to the press about how the war would be waged. Norman Schwarzkopf fired him even though he was said to be a brilliant war planner because he went to the press without approval. Despite being friendly with the Bush family he was fired nevertheless.'   'The BJP officials did not show leadership when it was needed. India has the world's largest 20-something population. Many of these are urbanised or dream of being urbanised. Many move to urban areas in search for that extra rupee. Many of these even in the country are fascinated by Bollywood and its regional cousins. Admit it. Materialism, Westernisation and its associated fashions/influence is ever-expanding. In light of these developments, it would have been prudent for BJP to endear itself among this demographic.'   'Beating up couples on Valentine dates or trashing pubs/nightclubs will alienate these folks. The Hindu forces should be geared to fight Talibanisation and not become like the Taliban. Believe it or not, of all the good things you do one small infraction is all that is needed for the media to show you like a demon. The zealots played into the hands of the media like fools. For a youngster in Chennai who has heard of BJP and other Hindu right movements, he would know little of what great work these movements are doing in Gujarat or Haryana. But he would hear from the media when a couple on a Valentine date get beaten up. That would be his impression of the Hindutva movement.'   'Like the old saying: A drop of ink is enough to spoil a bucket of milk. Also, in light of this 20-something demographic, where are the young faces in the BJP? This is the largest 20-something population in the world and the largest voting bloc in the country. Eighty-something year old Mr Advani, no disrespect to him and his huge contribution to the country, but there is a disconnect and I don't think he instills much confidence among the young crowd.'   'All this time Rahul Gandhi and his sister went around charming whoever that could be charmed. Let's admit it. We humans are visual animals. It is nature and no matter how indoctrinated we are otherwise, this will forever be dominant. In 2009, the India voter wants to see someone like him/her. Regardless of Manmohan Singh, Rahul was the featured face of INC in this election. Then the alienation and division among Hindus. Given that Hindus are intrinsically secular, stealth must have been the operative word. You cannot charge around like a bull. People however worried about their Hindu religion will be seriously repulsed. You should win the heart and mind of people via stealth instead of repulsing them.'   'Does the BJP stand for all Hindus or some Hindus only? If a man does not do his husbandly duties, his wife will not sit and wait around. She is bound to seek the arms of another willing man. And there is no shortage of men who will not think twice of doing the deed when a vulnerable or willing housewife arrives on the scene. This is the same with the controversy surrounding conversion. Why do people convert to another religion? Can we all agree that the reason they convert is because the new religion offered them hope and other related benefits that the original religion did not offer? You can cry till your lungs burst about the activities of the evangelists but as long as you have a vulnerable population that you hardly care except that they convert to another religion. The ants will keep moving to where the sugar is. It's the law of nature that you cannot change. Until Hindus themselves take the initiative to empower and help the downtrodden and vulnerable among them, these same vulnerable and downtrodden will be played for their votebanks by the cunning foxes.'   'For a party that desires to change the nation, the party must first instill change in the party. Does not matter how INC does business or XYZ party does business, it's about time the BJP does business differently and stand out as a force of positivity. Have a national referendum to select a party candidate just like the US primary. This will galvanise the rank and file and allow everyone a chance to vote their leader and give every party member a voice. Be the agent of change instead of giving lip service to it.'   ''On the whole all these news about goondas beating up people, colour TV or sack of rice or money in exchange for vote stinks big time. What happened to the spiritual Indian? Does this prove that Hindu influence is depleting? No wonder Hindutva lost its appeal?' 'Lastly, you cannot fight corruption by being less corrupt. You are either incorruptible or corruptible. BJP needs to stand as an incorruptible party that is for good governance.'   A caveat: Not all these people who post on these web sites are necessarily Hindutva cadres or sympathisers. There are some who feel more comfortable with the strategic thinking of the BJP on national issues than with that of the Congress, but they cannot be characterised as pro-Hindutva.   B Raman   http://election.rediff.com/column/2009/may/17/loksabhapoll-shock-and-awe-on-pro-hindutva-web-sites.htm     From tasveerghar at gmail.com Sat May 23 19:15:20 2009 From: tasveerghar at gmail.com (Tasveer Ghar) Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 21:45:20 +0800 Subject: [Reader-list] Indian elections: how to woo Muslims to vote for you In-Reply-To: <484c1050905230304i48bdd7a9nb2ac9b5107c93f97@mail.gmail.com> References: <484c1050905230304i48bdd7a9nb2ac9b5107c93f97@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <484c1050905230645h3e584b25t55c22f3c884d0682@mail.gmail.com> Indian elections: how to woo Muslims to vote for you http://tasveerghar.net/cmsdesk/essay/49/index.html Dear friends, Last week, the Lok Sabha elections of 2009 to select India's central government finally come to an end, and results were out. Some analysts have pointed out that the Muslims of north India were one of the important deciding factors for the success or defeat of the different parties. If one observed the Urdu newspapers in north India, one could easily see how different parties and candidates tried to attract the attention of Muslim voters by engaging them on a number of issues from development and employment to terrorism and communalism. While Congress and its allies have emerged once again to form the government, one can see how they and the other parties didn't leave any stone unturned to present a favourable image of themselves, while painting their opponents as the worst enemies of the Muslims. Interestingly, many of these advertisements have bylines not of the main parties they represent. Rather, these have been issued by hitherto unknown organizations and NGOs of local Muslims, and in some cases, religious clergy or even the keepers of local Sufi shrines, who have a great following among the Muslims. While this is not the first time that Muslim religious leaders have participated in the campaign for political parties, but they have certainly come out more openly this time, often using the iconography of their religious authority. Tasveer Ghar presents a few examples of such campaign advertisements from some Urdu newspapers published in Delhi and UP in the last few weeks: http://tasveerghar.net/cmsdesk/essay/49/index.html We would be happy to hear your feedback about the various interesting image galleries emerging on Tasveer Ghar. The Tasveer Ghar Team -- http://www.tasveerghar.net From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Sat May 23 19:38:47 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 19:38:47 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] plight of the muslim women and appeasement In-Reply-To: <934690.11799.qm@web39101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <934690.11799.qm@web39101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <518324.36813.qm@web94714.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Dear all,          Do you believe in the effectiveness of such policies? A more fundamental question to ask would be the effects of such a policy. A> Does a boy usually marry a girl more educated than him? b> What is the average marriage age of Girls, ok Muslim Girls in our country. Even in towns, cities etc., my experience is that after Class 12. What does education mean after that, if one has a kid( no accounts of heroism please!)? c> After free education what does a transfer signify? IS it just to increase demand for government education sans adding value? d> Depends on the answer to b> If education does not create gender equality, is it being used to create varied disparity. The Value mothers add to home as housewifes is being dimminished. So education is now required to even run a dhaba, for tourism or what? UNproductive Education! Thus I conclude that this process will evebtually substitute & justify various forms of disparities, and except a transfer of Income, in effect is half-hearted. I have seen school going children working to substitute Income. Will transfers stop it? NO. Then what are the Desired effects? Sad that some people do not see why the Swan presents food to the jackal in a certain way! ________________________________ From: A.K. Malik To: anupam chakravartty Cc: Sarai List Sent: Friday, 22 May, 2009 11:13:36 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] plight of the muslim women and appeasement Dear Mr Chakravartty,                     Since the info has been more or less a first hand from the Schools,my only objection had been the effect of such moves on the tender minds of kid girls.You can't make a girl of 10-12 years understand why a muslim girl whose parents are well-off gets Rs 300 and she whose parents hardly able to get even full food for the day doesn't get it.If the money is to be paid, let it be paid to all girl students irrespective of caste creed and religion or it must be based on economic criterion again irrespective of caste and creed as also of religion. I have even a problem with the Scheme to be named with a MUslim name as also I oftenly find problem with all SC/STs places being named Gandhi/Ambedkar Sadans etc and never by Jawahar/Patel or similar ones. (A.K.MALIK) --- On Wed, 5/20/09, anupam chakravartty wrote: > From: anupam chakravartty > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] plight of the muslim women and appeasement > To: "sarai list" > Date: Wednesday, May 20, 2009, 4:13 PM > Dear Mr Malik, > > > > Clarifications first: > > > > The funds for the education and employment for the backward > minorities would > be made available through GOI. Maulana Azad Trust’s > corpus has been > increased to Rs 500 crores. ( > http://www.indianexpress.com/news/education-jobs-plan-panel-focus-for-muslim-uplift/19044/0 > ) > > > > To reason for reservation in any form, I would say that it > is a policy of > involving more and more people in decision-making process > so that a > composite form of governance can be created. If > reservations mean benefits > it also means additional responsibility. Prosperity, which > in this case, is > a derivative of the function of reservation, actually has > an added baggage > of roles, especially in India. These roles are to be > fulfilled by those who > avail what we call reservation as these roles traditionally > were performed > by just one set of people who are endowed with economic > power with and > therefore they were also expected to have a say in the > functioning of the > government and taking large scale policy decision. > > > > I might be contradicting myself, but the reservations are > not just about > economic prosperity. It is a means of social empowerment > too. Infact social > empowerment is the basis for the reservations in India. > While economic > prosperity is a result of individual strengths, social > prosperity and > recognition is a form of collective strength. It is not the > case that social > prosperity could be gained only through economic gains, but > vice versa – as > in you need an atmosphere without any discrimination than > only you can work > better. > > > > In case of Muslims, more than the economic disparity > between the rich and > the poor, it is social relevance of the community that > needs to be addressed > from within the community. Although reforms in Muslims have > to intrinsic and > inclusive, it cannot be seen in the light of the reform > movements in other > religions. Therefore, there is such an impetus on resolving > the issues of > education and employment especially in case of the Muslim > girls. > > > > Like you have pointed out that extra Rs 300 given to the > Muslim girls, I > take this opportunity to point towards 14 per cent > reservation for Brahmins > and other upper castes ( > http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl2514/stories/20080718251403300.htm) > that > have been clearly called economically backward upper > castes, even though the > most backward people would be tribals in Banswada > district. > > > > Thanks anupam > > > On 5/20/09, Rakesh Iyer > wrote: > > > > Dear Malik jee > > > > If you wish to say that benefits like reservation must > be based on economic > > criteria, to quite a substantial extent (leaving aside > SC and ST), I would > > agree, as it is not going to help if only the affluent > among the upper > > castes, the backward castes or the Muslims or other > minorities are getting > > admissions and posts based on reservations. It's the > poor and the > > downtrodden among these communities which require > reservation. > > > > However, when we do provide such reservation, then we > have to ensure that > > these people have the capacity to get absorbed through > such reservations, > > otherwise it's going to be of no use. For example, if > the poor can't avail > > of education even upto 10th std, then what is the use > of providing them > > reservation in IIT's and IIM's ? Therefore, it's time > we debate upon the > > idea of reservation to bring about benefits to > different communities. The > > same argument also extends for SC's and ST's. > > > > At the same time, one must not forget that one of the > benefits of > > introducing reservation was to increase national > unity, and whether one > > likes it or not, this is something which can't be > debated. If there would > > have been no reservation for SC's and ST's too, these > would also have felt > > useless and would have joined themselves to causes > which indulge in violence > > (at least a part have done so through Naxalism), and I > feel the Naxalite > > problem may have been greater, along with violence due > to caste > > discrimination and casteism. > > > > I have no problems with reservation as a move, it's > just that I accept your > > point that reservation for any caste or religion or > community must be > > debated, and the previous effects of reservation must > be studied while > > undertaking any new reservations to ensure that these > actually turn > > effective. And if that means reservation for poor > across all castes and > > communities has to be provided, so be it. > > > > Regards > > > > Rakesh > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>       _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Own a website.Get an unlimited package.Pay next to nothing.*Go to http://in.business.yahoo.com/ From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Sat May 23 22:50:49 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 22:50:49 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] prabhakaran's family album Message-ID: <773779.36665.qm@web94705.mail.in2.yahoo.com>  click or copy n paste on link below. Credits to company hosting it  http://www.hotklix.com/link/news/world/Prabhakaran-family-album After the series of discourses of the tiger's and his familie's slaughter, I hope people here might like it. Own a website.Get an unlimited package.Pay next to nothing.*Go to http://in.business.yahoo.com/ From anansi1 at earthlink.net Sat May 23 23:11:09 2009 From: anansi1 at earthlink.net (Paul D. Miller) Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 13:41:09 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [Reader-list] Why People Believe Invisible Agents Control the World Message-ID: <26912723.1243100470510.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net> I just thought I'd pass this along Paul/Dj Spooky Why People Believe Invisible Agents Control the World A Skeptic's take on souls, spirits, ghosts, gods, demons, angels, aliens and other invisible powers that be By Michael Shermer >From the June 2009 Scientific American Magazine http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=skeptic-agenticity Souls, spirits, ghosts, gods, demons, angels, aliens, intelligent designers, government conspirators, and all manner of invisible agents with power and intention are believed to haunt our world and control our lives. Why? The answer has two parts, starting with the concept of "patternicity," which I defined in my December 2008 column as the human tendency to find meaningful patterns in meaningless noise. Consider the face on Mars, the Virgin Mary on a grilled cheese sandwich, satanic messages in rock music. Of course, some patterns are real. Finding predictive patterns in changing weather, fruiting trees, migrating prey animals and hungry predators was central to the survival of Paleolithic hominids. The problem is that we did not evolve a baloney- detection device in our brains to discriminate between true and false patterns. So we make two types of errors: a type I error, or false positive, is believing a pattern is real when it is not; a type II error, or false negative, is not believing a pattern is real when it is. If you believe that the rustle in the grass is a dangerous predator when it is just the wind (a type I error), you are more likely to survive than if you believe that the rustle in the grass is just the wind when it is a dangerous predator (a type II error). Because the cost of making a type I error is less than the cost of making a type II error and because there is no time for careful deliberation between patternicities in the split-second world of predator-prey interactions, natural selection would have favored those animals most likely to assume that all patterns are real. But we do something other animals do not do. As large- brained hominids with a developed cortex and a theory of mind-the capacity to be aware of such mental states as desires and intentions in both ourselves and others- we infer agency behind the patterns we observe in a practice I call "agenticity": the tendency to believe that the world is controlled by invisible intentional agents. We believe that these intentional agents control the world, sometimes invisibly from the top down (as opposed to bottom-up causal randomness). Together patternicity and agenticity form the cognitive basis of shamanism, paganism, animism, polytheism, monotheism, and all modes of Old and New Age spiritualisms. Agenticity carries us far beyond the spirit world. The Intelligent Designer is said to be an invisible agent who created life from the top down. Aliens are often portrayed as powerful beings coming down from on high to warn us of our impending self-destruction. Conspiracy theories predictably include hidden agents at work behind the scenes, puppet masters pulling political and economic strings as we dance to the tune of the Bilderbergers, the Rothschilds, the Rockefellers or the Illuminati. Even the belief that government can impose top-down measures to rescue the economy is a form of agenticity, with President Barack Obama being touted as "the one" with almost messianic powers who will save us. There is now substantial evidence from cognitive neuroscience that humans readily find patterns and impart agency to them, well documented in the new book SuperSense (HarperOne, 2009) by University of Bristol psychologist Bruce Hood. Examples: children believe that the sun can think and follows them around; because of such beliefs, they often add smiley faces on sketched suns. Adults typically refuse to wear a mass murderer's sweater, believing that "evil" is a supernatural force that imparts its negative agency to the wearer (and, alternatively, that donning Mr. Rogers's cardigan will make you a better person). A third of transplant patients believe that the donor's personality is transplanted with the organ. Genital- shaped foods (bananas, oysters) are often believed to enhance sexual potency. Subjects watching geometric shapes with eye spots interacting on a computer screen conclude that they represent agents with moral intentions. "Many highly educated and intelligent individuals experience a powerful sense that there are patterns, forces, energies and entities operating in the world," Hood explains. "More important, such experiences are not substantiated by a body of reliable evidence, which is why they are supernatural and unscientific. The inclination or sense that they may be real is our supersense." We are natural-born supernaturalists. From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Sun May 24 00:06:30 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 00:06:30 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: prabhakaran's family album Message-ID: <359267.89323.qm@web94705.mail.in2.yahoo.com> ----- Forwarded Message ---- From: subhrodip sengupta To: Readers list Yousuf Sarai. Sent: Saturday, 23 May, 2009 10:50:49 PM Subject: prabhakaran's family album  click or copy n paste on link below. Credits to company hosting it  http://www.hotklix.com/link/news/world/Prabhakaran-family-album After the series of discourses of the tiger's and his familie's slaughter, I hope people here might like it. ________________________________ Bollywood news, movie reviews, film trailers and more! Click here. Share files, take polls, and make new friends - all under one roof. Go to http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/ From akmalik45 at yahoo.com Sun May 24 10:53:11 2009 From: akmalik45 at yahoo.com (A.K. Malik) Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 22:23:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] plight of the muslim women and appeasement Message-ID: <15054.89171.qm@web39104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dear Mr Sengupta, My observations on your comments please: A) A boy doesn't usually like to marry a girl more educated than him barring exceptions.Reason-male ego. B)Cities it is definitely more. Average would be around 22 years.IN villages, it is almost never 12th even and (for muslim girls, it may still be lower). C) The question is not clear, what transfer signify here.May be I missed some mails. D) Free education including fees and uniform and in some states free meals as well definitely increases level of participation for girl children belonging to poor parents who can't afford to send them to schools (boys being priority). There are known cases where the girls miss their classes when the father/mother is unable to go to rehris/small shops/work places as they substitute their parents on work.But in the last several years I have observed the levels of girls leaving schools from 7th/8th to at least 10th/12th (except that many girl children leave school getting failure in 10th class).The marriage age is also going up in the process. The benefits have been substantial barring those for conservative families from all religions,( more from muslim families,as the no seem to more on conservative side).But still the effort is worth it and is yielding results. E) In spite of women earning on their own there would be very less no of families where in spite of their earnings the women can spend more than small amounts on their own even if the money belongs to them because of the social structure of families in India.Disparities have remained and will continue to remain to some extent whether it is gender, caste or creed but our effort should be to reduce the disparities with ultimate aim of eliminating the disparities.Change is coming and will continue which is welcome but it is slow. Regards, (A.K.MALIK) --- On Sat, 5/23/09, subhrodip sengupta wrote: > From: subhrodip sengupta > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] plight of the muslim women and appeasement > To: "Readers list Yousuf Sarai." > Date: Saturday, May 23, 2009, 7:38 PM > Dear all, >          Do you believe in the effectiveness of > such policies? A more fundamental question to ask would be > the effects of such a policy. > A> Does a boy usually marry a girl more educated than > him? > b> What is the average marriage age of Girls, ok Muslim > Girls in our country. Even in towns, cities etc., my > experience is that after Class 12. What does education mean > after that, if one has a kid( no accounts of heroism > please!)? > c> After free education what does a transfer signify? IS > it just to increase demand for government education sans > adding value? > d> Depends on the answer to b> If education does not > create gender equality, is it being used to create varied > disparity. The Value mothers add to home as housewifes is > being dimminished. So education is now required to even run > a dhaba, for tourism or what? UNproductive Education! > > Thus I conclude that this process will evebtually > substitute & justify various forms of disparities, and > except a transfer of Income, in effect is half-hearted. I > have seen school going children working to substitute > Income. Will transfers stop it? NO. Then what are the > Desired effects? Sad that some people do not see why the > Swan presents food to the jackal in a certain way! > > > > > ________________________________ > From: A.K. Malik > To: anupam chakravartty > Cc: Sarai List > Sent: Friday, 22 May, 2009 11:13:36 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] plight of the muslim women and > appeasement > > > Dear Mr Chakravartty, >                     Since the info has been more > or less a first hand from the Schools,my only objection had > been the effect of such moves on the tender minds of kid > girls.You can't make a girl of 10-12 years understand why a > muslim girl whose parents are well-off gets Rs 300 and she > whose parents hardly able to get even full food for the day > doesn't get it.If the money is to be paid, let it be paid to > all girl students irrespective of caste creed and religion > or it must be based on economic criterion again irrespective > of caste and creed as also of religion. > I have even a problem with the Scheme to be named with a > MUslim name as also I oftenly find problem with all SC/STs > places being named Gandhi/Ambedkar Sadans etc and never by > Jawahar/Patel or similar ones. > > (A.K.MALIK) > > > --- On Wed, 5/20/09, anupam chakravartty > wrote: > > > From: anupam chakravartty > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] plight of the muslim women > and appeasement > > To: "sarai list" > > Date: Wednesday, May 20, 2009, 4:13 PM > > Dear Mr Malik, > > > > > > > > Clarifications first: > > > > > > > > The funds for the education and employment for the > backward > > minorities would > > be made available through GOI. Maulana Azad Trust’s > > corpus has been > > increased to Rs 500 crores. ( > > http://www.indianexpress.com/news/education-jobs-plan-panel-focus-for-muslim-uplift/19044/0 > > ) > > > > > > > > To reason for reservation in any form, I would say > that it > > is a policy of > > involving more and more people in decision-making > process > > so that a > > composite form of governance can be created. If > > reservations mean benefits > > it also means additional responsibility. Prosperity, > which > > in this case, is > > a derivative of the function of reservation, actually > has > > an added baggage > > of roles, especially in India. These roles are to be > > fulfilled by those who > > avail what we call reservation as these roles > traditionally > > were performed > > by just one set of people who are endowed with > economic > > power with and > > therefore they were also expected to have a say in > the > > functioning of the > > government and taking large scale policy decision. > > > > > > > > I might be contradicting myself, but the reservations > are > > not just about > > economic prosperity. It is a means of social > empowerment > > too. Infact social > > empowerment is the basis for the reservations in > India. > > While economic > > prosperity is a result of individual strengths, > social > > prosperity and > > recognition is a form of collective strength. It is > not the > > case that social > > prosperity could be gained only through economic > gains, but > > vice versa – as > > in you need an atmosphere without any discrimination > than > > only you can work > > better. > > > > > > > > In case of Muslims, more than the economic disparity > > between the rich and > > the poor, it is social relevance of the community > that > > needs to be addressed > > from within the community. Although reforms in Muslims > have > > to intrinsic and > > inclusive, it cannot be seen in the light of the > reform > > movements in other > > religions. Therefore, there is such an impetus on > resolving > > the issues of > > education and employment especially in case of the > Muslim > > girls. > > > > > > > > Like you have pointed out that extra Rs 300 given to > the > > Muslim girls, I > > take this opportunity to point towards 14 per cent > > reservation for Brahmins > > and other upper castes ( > > http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl2514/stories/20080718251403300.htm) > > that > > have been clearly called economically backward upper > > castes, even though the > > most backward people would be tribals in Banswada > > district. > > > > > > > > Thanks anupam > > > > > > On 5/20/09, Rakesh Iyer > > wrote: > > > > > > Dear Malik jee > > > > > > If you wish to say that benefits like reservation > must > > be based on economic > > > criteria, to quite a substantial extent (leaving > aside > > SC and ST), I would > > > agree, as it is not going to help if only the > affluent > > among the upper > > > castes, the backward castes or the Muslims or > other > > minorities are getting > > > admissions and posts based on reservations. It's > the > > poor and the > > > downtrodden among these communities which > require > > reservation. > > > > > > However, when we do provide such reservation, > then we > > have to ensure that > > > these people have the capacity to get absorbed > through > > such reservations, > > > otherwise it's going to be of no use. For > example, if > > the poor can't avail > > > of education even upto 10th std, then what is the > use > > of providing them > > > reservation in IIT's and IIM's ? Therefore, it's > time > > we debate upon the > > > idea of reservation to bring about benefits to > > different communities. The > > > same argument also extends for SC's and ST's. > > > > > > At the same time, one must not forget that one of > the > > benefits of > > > introducing reservation was to increase national > > unity, and whether one > > > likes it or not, this is something which can't > be > > debated. If there would > > > have been no reservation for SC's and ST's too, > these > > would also have felt > > > useless and would have joined themselves to > causes > > which indulge in violence > > > (at least a part have done so through Naxalism), > and I > > feel the Naxalite > > > problem may have been greater, along with > violence due > > to caste > > > discrimination and casteism. > > > > > > I have no problems with reservation as a move, > it's > > just that I accept your > > > point that reservation for any caste or religion > or > > community must be > > > debated, and the previous effects of reservation > must > > be studied while > > > undertaking any new reservations to ensure that > these > > actually turn > > > effective. And if that means reservation for > poor > > across all castes and > > > communities has to be provided, so be it. > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > Rakesh > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > > city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > >       > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > >       Own a website.Get an unlimited > package.Pay next to nothing.*Go to http://in.business.yahoo.com/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From moinakb at yahoo.com Sun May 24 11:08:52 2009 From: moinakb at yahoo.com (moinak biswas) Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 22:38:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Journal of the Moving Image, No. 7 In-Reply-To: <01DAC7D8-E5DE-4331-9516-7A2A1DB0C3E3@sarai.net> References: <514676.38420.qm@web94715.mail.in2.yahoo.com> <6353c690905161050x3e66e47gc9c2d4cd91d20786@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70905161157x566074e6wea1d5feb85340601@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70905161307ob789c4fuc509a4f873d92af9@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690905161315q2dd709bapf02aad1a5d6f21e6@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70905170027u25e0944ewce405090a2bfdf06@mail.gmail.com> <341380d00905170114s38527500s6ebd06fa0bd5998c@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70905170207n6f7212e6m5cde2a815bf696fa@mail.gmail.com> <01DAC7D8-E5DE-4331-9516-7A2A1DB0C3E3@sarai.net> Message-ID: <97429.81109.qm@web54501.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear All, The 7th issue of Journal of the Moving Image, the annual publication of the Department of Film Studies, Jadavpur University, is out. Contributors are Kaushik Bhaumik, Bhaskar Sarkar, Earl Jackson, Jr., Lawrence Liang, S V Srinivas, Manas Ghosh, Michelle Baitali Bhowmik and Ravi S. Vasudevan. Please visit http://www.jmionline.org/jmi7.htm Will look forward to responses. On behalf of the editorial team Moinak Biswas Department of Film Studies Jadavpur University, Calcutta 700 032 Ph. 033 2411 1143 (home), 033 2414 6689 (office) From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Sun May 24 11:40:08 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 11:40:08 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] plight of the muslim women and appeasement In-Reply-To: <15054.89171.qm@web39104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <15054.89171.qm@web39104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <186599.36471.qm@web94709.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Sorry, MR Malik, The term transfer means a unilateral transfer of income, cash dispersal grant in aid, cash drop etc. In essence it increases prices. For eg if marriage age is just above 18 he laadli laxmi grant would be included in dowry. IN KIND SUBSIDY IS ALWAYS BETTER IN CASH MORE POPULAR. CAN POVERTY BE EVER ELIVATED BY THROWING CASH? Just imagine the amount of cash that would be needed. My conclusion was as a policy such schemes are hardly effective and with none other than Pm as economist, leave his sense but at least we have a planning commission, people are intelligent enough to understand it. Note that for self employment on does not need to know sine/cosine or need to attend a chemistry laboratory. Time for conclusion regarding the effects. Ur's was positive change is forthcoming? Please correct me if wrong! regards and thanks Subhrodip. ________________________________ From: A.K. Malik To: subhrodip sengupta Cc: Sarai List Sent: Sunday, 24 May, 2009 10:53:11 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] plight of the muslim women and appeasement Dear Mr Sengupta,                   My observations on your comments please: A) A boy doesn't usually like to marry a girl more educated than him barring exceptions.Reason-male ego. B)Cities it is definitely more. Average would be around 22 years.IN villages, it is almost never 12th even and (for muslim girls, it may still be lower). C) The question is not clear, what transfer signify here.May be I missed some mails. D) Free education including fees and uniform and in some states free meals as well definitely increases level of participation for girl children belonging to poor parents who can't afford to send them to schools (boys being priority). There are known cases where the girls miss their classes when the father/mother is unable to go to rehris/small shops/work places as they substitute their parents on work.But in the last several years I have observed the levels of girls leaving schools from 7th/8th to at least 10th/12th (except that many girl children leave school getting failure in 10th class).The marriage age is also going up in the process. The benefits have been substantial barring those for conservative families from all religions,( more from muslim families,as the no seem to more on conservative side).But still the effort is worth it and is yielding results. E) In spite of women earning on their own there  would be very less no of families where in spite of their earnings the women can spend more than small amounts on their own even if the money belongs to them because of the social structure of families in India.Disparities have remained and will continue to remain to some extent whether it is gender, caste or creed but our effort should be to reduce the disparities with ultimate aim of eliminating the disparities.Change is coming and will continue which is welcome but it is slow. Regards, (A.K.MALIK) --- On Sat, 5/23/09, subhrodip sengupta wrote: > From: subhrodip sengupta > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] plight of the muslim women and appeasement > To: "Readers list Yousuf Sarai." > Date: Saturday, May 23, 2009, 7:38 PM > Dear all, >          Do you believe in the effectiveness of > such policies? A more fundamental question to ask would be > the effects of such a policy. > A> Does a boy usually marry a girl more educated than > him? > b> What is the average marriage age of Girls, ok Muslim > Girls in our country. Even in towns, cities etc., my > experience is that after Class 12. What does education mean > after that, if one has a kid( no accounts of heroism > please!)? > c> After free education what does a transfer signify? IS > it just to increase demand for government education sans > adding value? > d> Depends on the answer to b> If education does not > create gender equality, is it being used to create varied > disparity. The Value mothers add to home as housewifes is > being dimminished. So education is now required to even run > a dhaba, for tourism or what? UNproductive Education! > > Thus I conclude that this process will evebtually > substitute & justify various forms of disparities, and > except a transfer of Income, in effect is half-hearted. I > have seen school going children working to substitute > Income. Will transfers stop it? NO. Then what are the > Desired effects? Sad that some people do not see why the > Swan presents food to the jackal in a certain way! > > > > > ________________________________ > From: A.K. Malik > To: anupam chakravartty > Cc: Sarai List > Sent: Friday, 22 May, 2009 11:13:36 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] plight of the muslim women and > appeasement > > > Dear Mr Chakravartty, >                     Since the info has been more > or less a first hand from the Schools,my only objection had > been the effect of such moves on the tender minds of kid > girls.You can't make a girl of 10-12 years understand why a > muslim girl whose parents are well-off gets Rs 300 and she > whose parents hardly able to get even full food for the day > doesn't get it.If the money is to be paid, let it be paid to > all girl students irrespective of caste creed and religion > or it must be based on economic criterion again irrespective > of caste and creed as also of religion. > I have even a problem with the Scheme to be named with a > MUslim name as also I oftenly find problem with all SC/STs > places being named Gandhi/Ambedkar Sadans etc and never by > Jawahar/Patel or similar ones. > > (A.K.MALIK) > > > --- On Wed, 5/20/09, anupam chakravartty > wrote: > > > From: anupam chakravartty > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] plight of the muslim women > and appeasement > > To: "sarai list" > > Date: Wednesday, May 20, 2009, 4:13 PM > > Dear Mr Malik, > > > > > > > > Clarifications first: > > > > > > > > The funds for the education and employment for the > backward > > minorities would > > be made available through GOI. Maulana Azad Trust’s > > corpus has been > > increased to Rs 500 crores. ( > > http://www.indianexpress.com/news/education-jobs-plan-panel-focus-for-muslim-uplift/19044/0 > > ) > > > > > > > > To reason for reservation in any form, I would say > that it > > is a policy of > > involving more and more people in decision-making > process > > so that a > > composite form of governance can be created. If > > reservations mean benefits > > it also means additional responsibility. Prosperity, > which > > in this case, is > > a derivative of the function of reservation, actually > has > > an added baggage > > of roles, especially in India. These roles are to be > > fulfilled by those who > > avail what we call reservation as these roles > traditionally > > were performed > > by just one set of people who are endowed with > economic > > power with and > > therefore they were also expected to have a say in > the > > functioning of the > > government and taking large scale policy decision. > > > > > > > > I might be contradicting myself, but the reservations > are > > not just about > > economic prosperity. It is a means of social > empowerment > > too. Infact social > > empowerment is the basis for the reservations in > India. > > While economic > > prosperity is a result of individual strengths, > social > > prosperity and > > recognition is a form of collective strength. It is > not the > > case that social > > prosperity could be gained only through economic > gains, but > > vice versa – as > > in you need an atmosphere without any discrimination > than > > only you can work > > better. > > > > > > > > In case of Muslims, more than the economic disparity > > between the rich and > > the poor, it is social relevance of the community > that > > needs to be addressed > > from within the community. Although reforms in Muslims > have > > to intrinsic and > > inclusive, it cannot be seen in the light of the > reform > > movements in other > > religions. Therefore, there is such an impetus on > resolving > > the issues of > > education and employment especially in case of the > Muslim > > girls. > > > > > > > > Like you have pointed out that extra Rs 300 given to > the > > Muslim girls, I > > take this opportunity to point towards 14 per cent > > reservation for Brahmins > > and other upper castes ( > > http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl2514/stories/20080718251403300.htm) > > that > > have been clearly called economically backward upper > > castes, even though the > > most backward people would be tribals in Banswada > > district. > > > > > > > > Thanks anupam > > > > > > On 5/20/09, Rakesh Iyer > > wrote: > > > > > > Dear Malik jee > > > > > > If you wish to say that benefits like reservation > must > > be based on economic > > > criteria, to quite a substantial extent (leaving > aside > > SC and ST), I would > > > agree, as it is not going to help if only the > affluent > > among the upper > > > castes, the backward castes or the Muslims or > other > > minorities are getting > > > admissions and posts based on reservations. It's > the > > poor and the > > > downtrodden among these communities which > require > > reservation. > > > > > > However, when we do provide such reservation, > then we > > have to ensure that > > > these people have the capacity to get absorbed > through > > such reservations, > > > otherwise it's going to be of no use. For > example, if > > the poor can't avail > > > of education even upto 10th std, then what is the > use > > of providing them > > > reservation in IIT's and IIM's ? Therefore, it's > time > > we debate upon the > > > idea of reservation to bring about benefits to > > different communities. The > > > same argument also extends for SC's and ST's. > > > > > > At the same time, one must not forget that one of > the > > benefits of > > > introducing reservation was to increase national > > unity, and whether one > > > likes it or not, this is something which can't > be > > debated. If there would > > > have been no reservation for SC's and ST's too, > these > > would also have felt > > > useless and would have joined themselves to > causes > > which indulge in violence > > > (at least a part have done so through Naxalism), > and I > > feel the Naxalite > > > problem may have been greater, along with > violence due > > to caste > > > discrimination and casteism. > > > > > > I have no problems with reservation as a move, > it's > > just that I accept your > > > point that reservation for any caste or religion > or > > community must be > > > debated, and the previous effects of reservation > must > > be studied while > > > undertaking any new reservations to ensure that > these > > actually turn > > > effective. And if that means reservation for > poor > > across all castes and > > > communities has to be provided, so be it. > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > Rakesh > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > > city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > >       > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > >       Own a website.Get an unlimited > package.Pay next to nothing.*Go to http://in.business.yahoo.com/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter http://beta.cricket.yahoo.com From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sun May 24 14:50:31 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 02:20:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Indian elections: how to woo Muslims to vote for you Message-ID: <219237.98340.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Not to be missed:   SLIDE 1 : In the Hindu-Muslim-Sikh-Christian, the Sikh is in the forefront. Why? Was the poster Punjab specific? Is it because Manmohan Singh (Sikh) was pre-announced as Prime Minister? Is it because the Sikh represents some kind of inoffensive neutrality amongst the other three?   SLIDE 2 : The tean in the cup appears to be Saffron coloured. Congress is accused of making sugar unaffordable. Is the Saffron (tea) bitter? Does it need sugaring up by the Congress to make it palatable?   SLIDE 3 : Party symbol of BSP, the Elephant (top left) has the Swastika SEAL marked on it, which was used to mark the voter's choice on ballot-papers. Isnt all voting Electronic now?   SLIDE 5: Depicts a Muslim family. The woman is not clad "Muslim-conservative" but rather "Muslim-fashionable". The man has a 'Zabiba' mark on his forehead which comes from (and signifies) being regular in Namaz. Interesting contrast.     SLIDES 8 & 9: The Anti-Communalism poster of Samajwadi Party has a pic of Mayawati (of BSP) who too professes being Anti-Communal. The pic shows her speaking from a podium draped in the BJP (regarded as being communal) Lotus symbol. A good one. (also in SLIDE 12)    SLIDE 14: Poster of Kapil Sibal (Congress) meant to be Anti-Modi (regarded as a communal HIndu) has prominently evident "Hindu" symbols on his wrist and forehead. Interesting    Kshmendra --- On Sat, 5/23/09, Tasveer Ghar wrote: From: Tasveer Ghar Subject: [Reader-list] Indian elections: how to woo Muslims to vote for you To: "Sarai reader list" Date: Saturday, May 23, 2009, 7:15 PM Indian elections: how to woo Muslims to vote for you http://tasveerghar.net/cmsdesk/essay/49/index.html Dear friends, Last week, the Lok Sabha elections of 2009 to select India's central government finally come to an end, and results were out. Some analysts have pointed out that the Muslims of north India were one of the important deciding factors for the success or defeat of the different parties. If one observed the Urdu newspapers in north India, one could easily see how different parties and candidates tried to attract the attention of Muslim voters by engaging them on a number of issues from development and employment to terrorism and communalism. While Congress and its allies have emerged once again to form the government, one can see how they and the other parties didn't leave any stone unturned to present a favourable image of themselves, while painting their opponents as the worst enemies of the Muslims. Interestingly, many of these advertisements have bylines not of the main parties they represent. Rather, these have been issued by hitherto unknown organizations and NGOs of local Muslims, and in some cases, religious clergy or even the keepers of local Sufi shrines, who have a great following among the Muslims. While this is not the first time that Muslim religious leaders have participated in the campaign for political parties, but they have certainly come out more openly this time, often using the iconography of their religious authority. Tasveer Ghar presents a few examples of such campaign advertisements from some Urdu newspapers published in Delhi and UP in the last few weeks: http://tasveerghar.net/cmsdesk/essay/49/index.html We would be happy to hear your feedback about the various interesting image galleries emerging on Tasveer Ghar. The Tasveer Ghar Team -- http://www.tasveerghar.net _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From cashmeeri at yahoo.com Sun May 24 15:35:46 2009 From: cashmeeri at yahoo.com (cashmeeri) Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 03:05:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] "Reading Genocidal Legacies in Darfur and Palestine" - Rahel Aima Message-ID: <999555.20933.qm@web31508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Author's Notes: this was written probably a month before the recent "gaza massacre", which ups the magnitude quotient of Palestine - i will amend it  later or add a followup but further questions I started on: Where do you draw the lines between ‘land conflict’, ‘ethnic cleansing’ and genocide’, and what are the political value(s) of doing so? And how does something get designated as genocide anyway – is it, legally, only when the ICC at the Hague says so? --- To deny that a genocide is taking place in Darfur is to deny the very real suffering of millions, and be well castigated for it. Is not 'calling genocide' in Gaza then a similar denial, even traitorship of sort? If the declaration of genocide is indeed an opening of the discourse, and a ’setting the stage’ for external intervention, is this necessarily a bad thing?  The redress by intergovermentals / ‘international community’ approach (for example, the International Criminal Court, has however always struck me as strange in that it targets and prosecutes individual leaders for crimes which are defined by their very systematic nature. And given that the Israeli occupation is not just Olmert’s, or Barak’s, or Sharon's, or whichever bogey-monster’s policy, but intrinsic to the very construction and functioning of the state, are such proceedings even possible? [the last part is crucial: the standard genocide-legal-framework indicts INDIVIDUALS for systemic crimes]   "Reading Genocidal Legacies in Darfur and Palestine" by Rahel Aima   The Rwandan genocide is popularly characterised as one of the most shocking massacres of a century already stained by violent bloodshed. Much of its associated visceral horror comes from the situation of neighbours turning against each other. Not unlike its historical cousin of the Nazi Holocaust, it too was structured around several poles of binary opposition. Citizen and subject; native and settler. Hutu and Tutsi; Nazi and Jew. Both of these atrocities have seeped their way into the collective Western consciousness, and have come to function as embedded points of reference for future conflicts. In thinking of their legacies, it would be easy, and perhaps logical to map Rwanda and the Holocaust to the ongoing conflicts in Darfur and Israel-Palestine respectively. I will however argue that there is instead a cross-fertilisation of these legacies, focussing on the Palestinian situation. This results in semantic emergences that become crucial to the way that they are politically read.   Both Darfur and the Palestinian Territories share several similarities borne of their postcolonial context. Conflict is driven by issues ranging from access to land and water, national identity and the politicisation of ethnicities, forced displacement and the right of return, humanitarian intervention and refugee camps, armed militias and State militaries, and volatile borders and government complicity. Despite this, both situations are labelled in very different ways. Darfur is frequently referred to in media and human rights reports in terms of war or ‘ethnic cleansing’. For Jérôme Tubiana, this latter term “highlights the fact that civilians were forced off their land because of their ethnicity – their villages destroyed, their livestock and other belongings looted” (Tubiana 2007 p69). Palestine meanwhile is characterised as a ‘conflict’, be it for land, liberation or security, or simply, a ‘problem’.   Should a term with more negative connotations be sought, the standard lexicon speaks of “Genocide in Darfur” and the “Occupation of Palestine”. Just looking at the prepositions suggests an interesting assignation of the familiar paradigm of the internal and external.   Like the Holocaust in Europe, Darfur is seen as being predicated upon internal factors and actors such as the Sudanese military or the Janjawiid militias. Palestine and Rwanda meanwhile tend to be conceived in terms of external regional factors and motivations. They serve almost as a designated site of conflict, with trained forces entering the space only when they are, essentially, ready to rumble. And as Mahmood Mamdani suggests, “while the crisis of nationalism can be made sense of in a single-country context, the crisis of citizenship cannot be grasped fully outside of a regional context” (Mamdani 2001 p36).   Why, then, are these situations so differently named – is it purely subjective and identity or ideologically based? Tubiana’s definition of ethnic cleansing is uncannily disconcerting in that it could be equally applied to the situation in Israel and Palestine today. Forced displacement to make way for Israeli settlers has resulted in an estimated 6 million refugees created since 1948. The same Internal Displacement Monitoring Centre statistics (IDMC 2007)1 estimate that around 950 000 of these have been displaced since 1967. In addition to this, a further 400 000 are internally displaced within Israel, amounting to nearly 1 in every 4 of the current Israeli population.   These Israeli Arabs present an interesting example in that their ethnicity subjects them to slightly different laws. They are not, for example, required to serve in the Israeli Defence Forces. Fascinatingly, people of a given (minority) ethnicity will have different legal statuses depending on where they live – not unlike the way in which someone might cease to be considered a Hutu or Tutsi upon crossing certain borders. As a result the Druze living in the annexed Golan Heights region tend to largely retain their Syrian citizenship despite being considered as permanent residents in the (controversial and internationally rejected) Golan Heights Law. Those who are Israeli citizens are not required to serve in the IDF either, although their fellow Druze citizens living in elsewhere in the country are.   Can this be considered a new form of customary law, in which citizenship is granted, regardless of race? Discrimination of ethnicities meanwhile occurs not only de facto but de jure too, to the extent of being codified into law. In the way that Rwanda functioned as a “halfway house between direct and indirect rule” (Mamdani 2001 15) it might be possible to posit the intra-Israeli situation as another structure – perhaps a drive through rest stop – on the road to decolonisation. The different IDF requirements also reveal a certain conflating of ethnicity and presumed patriotism or national allegiance. Is there a fear that Arab Israelis in the IDF – which works heavily in Palestine might be motivated into instead turning their guns on their fellow citizens, rather than shoot their fellow Arabs? Similarly, would Golan Druze soldiers be more likely to privilege ethnic solidarity with their fellow Druze people in Syria?   Despite all citizens being equal under Israel’s Basic Law, it is then telling that until 2005, Israeli identity cards for Israeli citizens included the field of ethnicity – fascinatingly labelled as nationality -,which could be Jewish, Arab, Circassian or Druze.   The ‘ethnic’ identity was however mutable in some cases – an ‘ethnic’ Arab Muslim or Christian could convert their religion to Judaism to be considered ‘ethnically’ Jewish. This was in itself problematic as some denominations of the religion refused to recognise conversions that didn’t fit their own standards. So it is that when, in 2002, it was decided that even those undergoing Reform conversions were to be listed as Jews, the then- Interior Minister Eli Yishai, from the Orthodox party Shas, decided to remove the category, instead of having those he did not consider to be Jews listed as such.   More explicitly discriminatory is the right of access to land, which, like the traditional land rights in Darfur, is organised along politicised ethnic lines. That is to say, 93% of the land in Israel today is public domain, and is managed by the Israel Land Administration. 13% belongs to the Jewish National Fund, with the rest going either to the State, or the Jewish Development Authority. Although the JNF share is small, they appoint a disproportionately high 10 members to the ILA board, with the remaining 12 coming from various government ministries. Problematically, JNF policies disallow non-Jews from leasing the land, which is to be acquired for the purpose of Jewish settlement. After tenuous legal battles, it was ruled in 2007 that the JNF would no longer be able to discriminate based on ethnicity.   At the same time, it would be compensated –in land- every time that land was sold to a non-Jew, so as to maintain the proportion of total land owned by Jewish Israelis. The ruling was however temporary, thus leaving this structural ethnic discrimination fundamentally unaddressed. The laws drawn around the right of return of refugees are similarly ethnically delineated and motivated. Again, then, as with in Rwanda, an ethnic citizen can claim land as a customary right, a kin based claim that is a consequence of membership in an ethnic group (Mamdani 2001 29). So it is that as in Rwanda, an official “deracialising without deethnicisation continued to produce a bifurcated citizenship” (Mamdani 2001 p31)   How then can the Israeli State be understood? Is it, as a nation based on building a cultural community, with a common past, or a political one with a common project for the future? These two approaches are not mutually exclusive but rather, seem to go hand in hand. Yet does the past brutal persecution of the Jewish peoples legitimise their own occupation – and some would say, colonisation, of the Palestinians? Similarly, does the Palestinian resistance (or terrorism?) act as a native violence against the settler?   It would be helpful to define exactly who is the settler and who is the native. Palestinians might be said to lay claim to the land based on prior and present residence, and some Israelis based on ethnicity, however amorphously defined. Still others might locate their claims in history, or in a religiously bestowed homeland (whether mythologised, revised or otherwise). It would here be interesting to see claims to land being made that go back beyond these two millennia – perhaps as a case for acquiring Ethiopia, sometimes considered the birthplace of civilisation?   Or perhaps it’s a question of temporal proximity. A far more recent example – yet one that would likely be equally as denied – is that which Mamdani considers the prototype of settler violence in the history of modern colonialism: the near extermination of Amerindians in the New World” (Mamdani 2001 p10). It might even be said that financial or religious linkages aside, the United States’ support of Israel stems partly from its affirmation of America’s own settler-style founding. Interestingly, just as the US has fairly effectively re-mythologised away its own genocidal guilt, the same machinations can be seen today in Israel, particularly around its own myth of origin. So it is that the 14th of May is celebrated for its marking of the foundation of a Jewish homeland at last. At the same time, the next day – commemorated as ‘Nakba Day’ for its marking of the beginning of the 1948 Palestinian exodus is systematically discounted and almost disappeared from the discourse surrounding the event.   Yet to return to the present – political, economic and architectural asphyxiation (as created by checkpoints, and access to certain roads) has further served to create a miasmic honeycomb of isolated annexed areas. These can be eerily reminiscent of the compartmentalising and perhaps even Bantustanising policies of colonialism in Africa. The West Bank Barrier is a particularly significant component in this machine, and was built with the stated purpose of protecting and defending Israel, from Palestinian paramilitaries. Despite this, it works instead not only to encroach territory and limit residents’ access to their farmlands, schools, hospitals and workplaces, but, crucially, to divide Palestinians from Palestinians. It can be wondered if this should then be understood as a project for further politicising the Palestinians into micro-ethnic identities. Perhaps even exploiting the current political divisions to engineer identities such as ‘Gaza-Palestinian’ or ‘West Bank-Palestinian.   It is important to note that these barriers – although made of concrete and structurally reinforced – are not impermeable, at least in both directions. Instead, they can be seen to function with the Israeli war machine to create a Schmitt-like state of emergency in which boundaries are relaxed and redrawn, both spatially and socially. To follow Eyal Weizman, this machine, like a bulldozer, unwalls the wall and undoes the law, as it ‘operates in a space as if it has no borders’ (Weizman 2007). Indeed, after an IDF visit, buildings are left resembling layer cakes. This is achieved through a smoothing of space and erasure of any frictions or concerns. It even extends to appellations of war. Urbicide might be kind of messy but an incisive campicide, or perhaps ‘villagicide’ is swallowed rather more easily. War membranes are thus made permanent yet translucent, like the one-way mirrors found in police interrogation chambers. Unable to see in, those on the outside are instead presented with mollifying reflections of their own better selves.   This semantic machine thus functions to transmute the semantic walls that bound a space of conflict, seeking to reassert and reproduce its parent system. It works through a sealing in and a targeting of language and discourse – Mamdani might even dub it the ‘naming machine’. In Palestine it is seen in action in the silencing of activists and agitator through disappearance and convenient erasure – all of those who might otherwise succeed in renaming or re-mythologising the conflict. Following on from its colonial roots, it targets not only Palestinians’ domiciles and bodies, but also their thoughts. Like the physical space of their villages, their appropriated discourses are deftly occupied, decimated and rebuilt. In Darfur, violence is thus called ethnic conflict and active war, but the Palestinian conflict is spun around land and passive occupation.   So it is that violence can be named, manipulated and even read in a myriad of ways. In the Politics of Naming, Mamdani maps this to Iraq, where “it is said to be a cycle of insurgency and counter-insurgency, in Darfur it is called genocide” (Mamdani 2007). He suggests that these names do in fact have very real effects, especially with regards to the War on Terror and fanning the flames of anti-Arab sentiment. Different definitions equally produce meaning and open up critical fissures and entry points for intervention, be it military or humanitarian. In this regard it is not unlike the project of the NGO-Industrial Complex, which extends its development-discursive arm(s) in a similar manner.   Sometimes the projects even collide, if accidentally, as happened with the organisation Médecins Sans Frontières in Rwanda. Their plea that genocide could not be stopped with doctors resulted in not only a military intervention, but also a refugee crisis to boot. Connotations of magnitude aside, it is finally worth noting how some of these names – ‘war’ or ‘genocide’ implies a temporally bounded event – one that can be ‘solved’ with efficiency (and still be back in time to fix the economy perhaps). Cyclical insurgency, conflict and occupation however imply a different time scale, with less hope of ever neatly ‘fixing’ the situation. And even as we move away from entrenched binary oppositions, it is these machinations that serve to mythologise and glorify in one direction even as they deftly reduce the surrounding narratives into a dangerously legitimising singularity.   Mamdani does ask, “Why the difference? Who does the naming? Who is being named? What difference does it make?” (Mamdani 2007). It is worth a brief return to the initial idea of how to ‘read’ a conflict or violent situation. Assigning authorship to each of these texts is a larger initiative. It is however possible that they share one ghostwriter, which is this semantic machine. ___________________________________________________________ TEXTS CITED Mahmood Mamdani – When Victims Become Killers: Colonialism, Nativism and the Genocide in Rwanda. (2001 Princeton University Press)   Mahmood Mamdani – The Politics of Naming: Genocide, Civil War, Insurgency (2007 London review of Books) http://www.lrb.co.uk/v29/n05/mamd01_.html   Jérôme Tubiana – Darfur: A Conflict for Land? -War in Darfur and the search for peace (2007 Global Equity Initiative)   Eyal Weizman – Walking Through Walls (2007 European Institute for Progressive Cultural Politics) – http://transform.eipcp.net/transversal/0507/weizman/en   Internal Displacement Monitoring Centre – Occupied Palestine Territory (2007 data) http://www.internal-displacement.org/idmc/website/countries.nsf/(httpEnvelopes)/98F0726BF       From hiteshsrawat at gmail.com Sun May 24 15:43:10 2009 From: hiteshsrawat at gmail.com (hitesh rawat) Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 15:43:10 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] plsease remove my listing from the reader-list-request!!!!!!!!!!!!! Message-ID: plsease remove my name and email id from the listing of reader-list-request!!!!!!!!!!!!! thank you!!! From indersalim at gmail.com Sun May 24 17:55:55 2009 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 17:55:55 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] on Swat, Islam, Iqbal, Salman Rushdie, jihad , poetry and lost milk tooth Message-ID: <47e122a70905240525w5dcd18f8s9464e6ccdf0da66d@mail.gmail.com> Yakeen mohkam, amal paihum, mohabat fatihai-aalam Jihad-e-zindagani mein yeh hein mardoon ki shamshirein  The above couple by Poet Iqbal roughly translates: Firm Belief, Action as per belief and Love which wins the world. These ( three ) things are men’s swords ( guns ) in Life’s Jihad.  These days one wishes to hear this couplet being sung in every street and corner in Pakistan. But I wonder if tribal people in Swat valley know how to read and write Urdu. But I don’t know if  these Jihadis would find any divine inspiration in the couplet, because the people are not city dwellers with main-stream ideals of modern life style. So, ironically, the couplet, or the complete poetry of Iqbal even might not be of any use in that case. In 1990, I bought a book in Darya Gung, Delhi for  Rs.20/-  ISLAM by Alferd Guilliaume . in  that book I learned  how (Swat like people) Heath Land people existed in pre-Islamic era who asserted against the established warring Jewish and Christian communities. Allah ( who already existed ) gifted them a leader to guide them and even teach them on issues like women, ethics, and politics etc.  It is not surprising that the achievement made under the able leadership of the chosen one still impresses the masses in the world. Then, the first priority of the newly established Islam was of course NOT to follow the systems (schools ) of the elites that time. That perhaps included the sophisticated school of Music, Art  and languages etc. They perhaps felt that people can live without these sophisticated faculties and so why to let these institutions to outwit the simple masses with their coded system that generates craft.  How the folk benefited by this banning is a different debate, but we see how Islam accepted the ordinary and some popular sacred sounds of the folk, or existing system within the heathlanders even. Again,  Alferd Guillaume’s research tells us that Poetry was banned by the established communities of that period. And poets were seen as haunted by some ghosts/demons etc so they deserved death if seen contaminating the masses.  But this gifted man by Allah had a vision and hence there were outbursts which could have caused him dearly, so he preferred caves. These caves too were places for a conspiracy to start a genuine political uprising. And the  rest is history. Here, I am interested in something different. For example Dr. Iqbal and Salman Rushdie are poles apart if one brings out a tentative comparison between the  two. Salman Rushdie offended the masses while Iqbal intoxicated the same. But when we talk about living a sophisticated main stream life then we can see them sitting on the same side of the fence. Satanic Verses is a well known incomprehensible book after some 30 odd pages, and so is most of Iqbal’s difficult verse. Both Salman Rushdie and Iqbal are useless in Swat Valley , although because of different reasons.  Both Salman and Iqbal lived liked the idea of living in style, not far from a bourgeoisie with some penchant for words. But are people interested how efficient is your skill to fit in the appropriate word appropriately, I doubt. At best it is rhetoric. Iqbal is amazed by the mysterious understanding between Devil and God, and so is Salman amazed by characters in MidNight Cildren, who oscillate between so called good and bad in life, in a just free India. . Here, I am interested in one more point: This Allah’s favourite man is known for his revelations, and we firmly believe that he was down to earth and truly honest while uttering  the words (verses ) to his closest circle of friends, who later on wrote it down. Although Alferd’s research says that the first Quran was written down  200 years after this Allah’s gifted leader passed away.  In that sense he was merely the conduit between Allah and his people. Everything was uttered to the masses then , and hence performative in essence, which is radically different from reading and reciting it in homes or elsewhere. Now the interpretation of the written ( of uttered words) is also radically different from what they meant in the past.  Are not we all  quite familiar with the so called illiteracy of the people living in Swat Valley and else where? If so, then there is an absolute possibility of distortion of meaning extracted by  different believers living in different spaces and in different times. I know my comment on Iqbal wont be appreciated by many and that perhaps includes Faisal Devi ji  too. Faisal Devi Ji in  his book ‘Landscapes of Jihad’ tells us that Salman Rushdie is the first person in Muslim world who united Muslims against a common enemy ‘West’. The developed and established West has perhaps nothing to offer to these present day  HeathLanders, so they rebel. Sadly, farcically. So it is not surprising that all the Jihad is actually helping the established world to establish more and more. So in future, there is a possibility that the present day Jihad against  Jewish-Christian elites would be seen as a genuine uprising. Unfortunately Allah has not gifted a rebel poet leader  the these rebels this time, but they are not from another planet.  At the moment, it is all violence which suits the men in comfort chairs in air conditioned. Alferd is much informative, although much provocative than Salman Rushide but I liked Faisal Devi Ji when he says that the fight is on environment too. The fight is to restore Sufi order too. The fight is to outwit the greedy corporate consumerist culture too. He agrees that it is very crude and violent at the moment, but this violence is temporary. Well, that is quite political, as most of the Jihadis themselves don’t abandon scientific tools to boost the aggressive fundamentalist form of Islam. Ethically, they should not touch guns and bombs because they have not designed invented them, but as we know in war rationality is the first causality. But the case is not limited to fundamentalists alone, for example, what about banning Megaphones in Mosques by the ordinary believers. Or giving more freedom to women, not as token representation like in Iran or Kuwait etc but something which brings about a change. But it is unlikely  to  happen, perhaps, we all, on both the sides of the fence are somehow a party to the collective crime against humanity and Earth.  I am personally lost to understand the argument on who is right and who is wrong in this battle between a terrorist and non-terrorist.  May I know who is my real enemy ?  May I know who is my real friend ? My other point is that what about Allah itself, who blesses the entire humanity irrespective of colour caste, creed race or religion. But some Sufi scholars believe that the exact way of uttering the sound Allah is lost. So we have a memory of Allah which we believe is absolute, controlling the world and our destinies. The sounds which Allah’s favourite leader used to utter his revelations are also lost, perhaps dispersed in the thin air of atmosphere, and hence in the hidden sub-conscious mind of the man in the present. What is lost is lost, but what we have, perhaps needs some mixing of dreams to enable us to read our individual set of desires and ideas of flights respectively. An Aritst from Malasiya once told me that whenever he thinks of Prophet Mohammad he closes his eyes and sees a strange blue, a different shade from all the shades on his  palette So is that colour a sign of peace and harmony for all of us in the world. May be this so called Islamic green is only the mask? May be we have nothing, but a dream, voice of which falters. And, perhaps, we all are living in a space, which is like a joke, which shouts “ I don’t know “ to any curiosity we want to resolve. Please read the following, may be it is puzzle for many, but it is not, perhaps… …………………………………………………………………………………. SON: oh, my tooth. MOTHER: pull it, pull it, slowly, slowly, it will come off. SON: yes, yes, it has come out. MOTHER: now, drop that in the rat hole over there. SON: alright mama, see, see it is done. MOTHER: now, it is rat’s job to give you a new sharp one, a permanent one SON: how? MOTHER: I don’t know my son, but my father told me so SON: you also dropped your teeth in the rat-hole? MOTHER: yes, SON; and my grand mother too MOTHER : yes, my dear. And all those who lost their teeth at this age did the same. Now go to bed and sleep well. Slept he well, dreamt a rain of teeth that night, and woke up, and dreamt again, and forgot tiny little details of dreams of his adolescent life. Slept he well, and grew up, learned some bits from sweet class mates and ignorant teachers at school, got married, saw his mother’s death, and sired a daughter and a son, moved to Metro city Delhi from a village in Kashmir. One day, the daughter came rushing, holding her tiny little milk-tooth in her hand DAUGHTER: dady dady, what should I do with this tooth.                               ( showing a tooth with little blood at one end) . FATHER: just throw it away ( his sound was listless ) DAUGHTER: but, where? ( his father’s answer confused her ) FATHER: anywhere, in the toilet ( he never meant it but told her ) His dead mother had perhaps told her grand daughter about the tradition of dropping these milk teeth in the rat holes.  So, without throwing her tooth in the toilet she held it in her palm, tightly, and went to bed, and slept, and dreamt Alphabets of her note book slipping out from the gap between her teeth in the mouth. Rats were running after her. She was running faster than the rats. She ran and ran and crossed over to a different valley through the spaces between snow clad peaks. There was darkness all around. She disappeared in the darkness of this nothingness, which frightened her and she woke up, instantly. She opened her palm to see her tooth, her own lost tooth which she held tightly before going to bed. It was not there. She did not ask anybody, and neither she wanted an answer for that. There were no rat-holes in the 7th floor of the apartment she lived in. Lived she in Delhi, forgot tiny little details of her childhood, went to school, slept and dreamt, and learnt things from  sweet class mates and ignorant teachers at school, but passed out and went to college to complete her graduation in Psychology. And one day she stumbled upon a stanza while casually browsing a book in library Nothingness to this abolished Man of the past; “Memory of horizons, O thou, what is the Earth?” Shouts this dream, and, voice whose clarity falters. Space as a joke has this cry “ I do not know?” Mallarme. ……………………………………………………………………… With love Inder salim -- From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sun May 24 17:59:32 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 05:29:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Allah Hafiz to Khuda Hafiz Message-ID: <578648.10853.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> A composition sung by the legendary Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan is a favourite of mine. It goes:   " koi toh hai jo nizaam e hastee chalaa rahaa hai   vohi Khudah hai"   ( there is someone, has to be, who runs the matrices of Being   that one, is The One, that is God)   Just a few days back, on one of the Pakistani TV channels, I heard it sung by some other singer.   The word "Khudah" had been replaced by "Allah".   An unppealing (to me) substitution. The power in the affirmation seemed to have been lost. The flavour was insipid.   I digress.   Kshmendra     "Allah Hafiz to Khuda Hafiz" Nadeem F. PARACHA Sunday, 24 May, 2009   The first time Allah Hafiz was used in public was in 1985 when a famous TV host, a frequent sight on PTV during the Zia era, signed off her otherwise secular show with a firm ‘Allah Hafiz.’   As most Pakistanis over the ages of six and seven would remember, before the now ubiquitous ‘Allah Hafiz’ came ‘Khuda Hafiz’. The immediate history of the demise of Khuda Hafiz can be traced back to a mere six to seven years in the past. It was in Karachi some time in 2002 when a series of banners started appearing across Sharea Faisal. Each banner had two messages. The first one advised Pakistani Muslims to stop addressing God by the informal ‘Tu’ and instead address him as ‘Aap’ (the respectful way of saying ‘you’ in Urdu). The second message advised Pakistanis to replace the term Khuda Hafiz with Allah Hafiz. The banners were produced and installed by Islamic organisations associated with a famous mosque in Karachi. Ever since the 1980s, this institution had been a bastion of leading puritanical doctrines of Islam. Many of the institution’s scholars were, in one way or the other, also related to the Islamic intelligentsia sympathetic to the Taliban version of political Islam and of other similar fundamentalist outfits. However, one just cannot study the Allah Hafiz phenomenon through what happened in 2002. This phenomenon has a direct link with the disastrous history of cultural casualties Pakistan has steadily been suffering for over thirty years now. Beyond the 2002 banner incident, whose two messages were then duly taken up by a series of Tableeghi Jamaat personnel and as well as trendsetting living room Islamic evangelists, a lot of groundwork had already taken place to culturally convert the largely pluralistic and religiously tolerant milieu of Pakistan into a singular concentration of Muslims following the “correct” version of Islam. The overriding reasons for this were foremost political, as General Ziaul Haq and his politico-religious cohorts went about setting up madressahs in an attempt to harden the otherwise softer strain of faith that a majority of Pakistanis followed so they could be prepared for the grand ‘Afghan jihad’ against the atheistic Soviet Union with a somewhat literalist and highly politicised version of Islam. The above process not only politically radicalised sections of Pakistani society, its impact was apparent on culture at large as well. For example, as bars and cinemas started closing down, young men and women, who had found space in these places to simply meet up, were forced to move to shady cafes, restaurants and parks which, by the mid-1980s, too started to be visited by cops and fanatical moral squads called the ‘Allah Tigers’, who ran around harassing couples in these spaces, scolding them for going against Islam, or, on most occasions, simply extorting money from the shaken couples through blackmail. Then, getting a blanket ideological and judicial cover by the Zia dictatorship, the cops started to harass almost any couple riding a motorbike, a car or simply sitting at the beach. Without even asking whether the woman was the guy’s sister or mother (on many occasions they were!), the cops asked for the couples’ marriage certificate! Failing to produce one (which in most cases they couldn’t), hefty sums of money were extorted as the couples were threatened to be sent to jail under the dreadful Hudood Ordinances. The same one the Musharraf government eventually scrapped. Some of these horrendous practices were duly stopped during the Benazir Bhutto and Nawaz Sharif governments in the 1990s, but the cat had long been set among the pigeons. Encouraged by their initial successes in the 1980s, Islamist culture-evangelists became a lot more aggressive in the 1990s. Drawing room and TV evangelists went about attempting to construct a “true” Islamic society, and at least one of their prescriptions was to replace the commonly used Khuda Hafiz with Allah Hafiz. This was done because these crusading men and women believed that once they had convinced numerous Pakistanis to follow the faith by adorning a long beard and hijab, the words Khuda Hafiz would not seem appropriate coming out from the mouths of such Islamic-looking folks. They believed that Khuda can mean any God, whereas the Muslims’ God was Allah. Some observers suggest that since many non-Muslims residing in Pakistan too had started to use Khuda Hafiz, this incensed the crusaders who thought that non-Muslim Pakistanis were trying to adopt Islamic gestures only to pollute them. The first time Allah Hafiz was used in public was in 1985 when a famous TV host, a frequent sight on PTV during the Zia era, signed off her otherwise secular show with a firm ‘Allah Hafiz.’ However, even though some Islamic preachers continued the trend in the 1990s, it did not trickle down to the mainstream until the early 2000s. As society continued to collapse inwards — especially the urban middle class — the term Allah Hafiz started being used as if Pakistanis had always said Allah Hafiz. So much so that today, if you are to bid farewell by saying Khuda Hafiz, you will either generate curious facial responses, or worse, get a short lecture on why you should always say Allah Hafiz instead — a clear case of glorified cultural isolationism to ‘protect’ one’s comfort zone of myopia from the influential and uncontrollable trends of universal pluralism? I’m afraid this is the case.   Copyright © 2009 - Dawn Media Group   http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/columnists/16-nadeem-f-paracha-allah-hafiz-to-khuda-hafiz-hs-07       From yasir.media at gmail.com Sun May 24 19:21:30 2009 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?windows-1256?B?eWFzaXIgfu3HINPR?=) Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 18:51:30 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Happy Sunday :) Library and Garbage bins In-Reply-To: <1646DD34-E908-45F0-A39B-1B7BED63CB7B@sarai.net> References: <341380d00905110349r9511b39i146b97445c2f52ae@mail.gmail.com> <748635.42842.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <1646DD34-E908-45F0-A39B-1B7BED63CB7B@sarai.net> Message-ID: <5af37bb0905240651w462a900bi44883a01c23fb729@mail.gmail.com> its a familiar story with the bins and sewers, but community libraries are a delight, when they happen and are around on someones desire to share books and collect, and have a reading room. the govt ones are in tatters, one notices a swell in titles in/from the sixties... y khi From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Mon May 25 09:09:58 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 09:09:58 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: [humanrights-movement:1580] Protest Demolition of a Gandhian Aashram in Chhattisgarh: Sign Petition at In-Reply-To: <654751.56378.qm@web95213.mail.in2.yahoo.com> References: <654751.56378.qm@web95213.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1f9180970905242039n69bfb39dq2176b4f0bee8bfeb@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Sukla Sen Date: Mon, May 25, 2009 at 8:03 AM Subject: [humanrights-movement:1580] Protest Demolition of a Gandhian Aashram in Chhattisgarh: Sign Petition at To: humanrights-movement at googlegroups.com, Samuhik Khoj , insaaniyatlist at yahoogroups.com, hope at topica.com, csdmumbai at yahoogroups.com Protest Demolition of a Gandhian Aashram in Chhattisgarh: Sign Petition at I/IV. Press Release The Committee for the Release of Dr Binayak Sen, Mumbai, Mumbai expresses its grave concern at the report of demolition of the premises of Vanvasi Chetna Ashram (VCA) in Dantewara,Chhattisgarh by the local administrative authorities on the morning of 17th May 2009, and the subsequent detention, harassment and brutal bashing up of some of the inmates, visitors and volunteers including students and journalists – both men and women. The sudden demolition on the plea of encroachment of forest land and regardless of the fact that a court case is already pending, as it is more than evident, was carried out just to intimidate and stifle any and every voice of conscientious dissent raised against the barbaric and utterly illegal ongoingSalwa Judum campaign of the BJP-government of Chhattisgarh. The Vanvasi Chetna Ashram, had been set up and has been working since for the welfare of the local adivasi way back in 1992. Since 2005, it is raising its voice to demand governmentaccountability and social justice in the light of violence against adivasis and their forced displacement from their villages by the state-sponsored militia Salwa Judum, in Dantewada and Bijapur districts. The VCA is one of the few community organisations engaged in resettlement and rehabilitation of displaced adivasis by organising individual and community support programmes under very adverse conditions. The Committee is shocked to note that the state administration, instead of recognising and supporting the invaluable service that the VCA is providing to the most marginalised communities inthe area, has launched a campaign of vilification and cruel assault against the organisation. The Committee also notes that this demolition was carried out in the immediate wake of the announcement of parliamentary election results. It evidently signifies that the state administration takes the positive electoral performance of the ruling party in the state as an act of popular endorsement of its brutal policies, castigated even by the Supreme Court of India in Last year April. Quite disregarding the fact that such policies have been delivered a decisive rebuff on the all-India plane. In the view of the Committee, no matter whatever be the electoral verdict, such brazen acts of stateatrocities can never be condoned and have got to be stoutly countered. This is of a piece with the detention of and refusal of bail to one of the most prominent humanrights activists in the state, Dr. Binayak Sen, on the strength of the draconian Chhattisgarh Special Public Security Act, 2005 for the last two years in the teeth of national and global outrage and protests. Under the circumstances, the Committee demands of the state government the following: ·        Immediate legal action against the officials who ordered and carried out the illegal demolition. ·        Full compensation to VCA and the rebuilding of its premises. [A detailed report is available at .] May 18 2009 Committee for the Release of Dr Binayak Sen, Mumbai II http://www.binayaksen.net/2009/05/veronica-kalpana-gautam-vca/ They demolished Gandhian ashram, and beat us badly Posted at May 21, 2009 Symbi student, 18, narrates her first-hand experience of state repression in conflict-torn Dantewada in Chhattisgarh By Veronica Kalpana Gautam Mumbai Mirror THEN NOW Pictures of the non-profit Vanvasi Chetna Ashram in Dantewada, Chattisgarh, before and after demolition by the state authorities on May 17 As part of my Media and Communication programme of Symbiosis International University, I have been interning with Vanvasi Chetna Ashram, a Gandhian non-profit organisation, based in the conflict zone of Dantewada in Chhattisgarh. For the last few years, the ashram has increasingly raised its voice against state atrocities upon civilians. I have been involved in the projects to rehabilitate villagers who fled due to atrocities inflicted on them by both warring parties. According to Human Rights Watch, more than 40,000 people have left their homes due to the conflict between the Naxalites and the state-sponsored, counter-insurgency of the Salwa Judum. The legitimacy of the Salwa Judum yet to be decided before the Supreme Court. Meanwhile, the Court has passed orders to rehabilitate the 644 villages of the conflict zone, but the administration has ignored them. Only Vanvasi Chetna Ashram and other local NGOs from Andhra Pradesh have been active in the rehabilitation of these villages and are often hindered by the government. I was involved with the rehabilitation of the villages of Basaguda block during the second week of May. Most villages in these areas have no access to electricity, transport, and the only source of rice and ration is the Ashram itself. About 90 per cent of all homes in these areas have been destroyed. Two days after the initial rehabilitation of more than 100 people, I returned to the village of Kawalnar where the Ashram’s main office and housing facilities have been located for the last 17 years. Eventually, a notice issued on May 13, delivered on May 16, stated that everyone must vacate the premises by 7 am on May 17. I learnt that the legal matter of encroachment itself was sub-judice and thus, no legal action could have been taken. The land itself comes under the Fifth Schedule of the Constitution and it gives sole authority to the Gram Sabha — the villagers. And not a single building can be built or destroyed on that land without their permission. In 1994, the Gram Sabha of Kawalnar had already allotted the land to the Ashram for carrying out their service work. The day before, the same villagers confirmed that they do not want the Ashram to go. On May 17, at 6.30 am, about 50 CRPF Jawans arrived and took positions around the Ashram’s premises, ensuring not a single villager could get to the main buildings. After a while, some 500 security personnel and sub-divisional magistrate Ankit Anand had arrived. Kopa Kunjam, a social worker and an employee of the ashram, asked the magistrate for the letter granting permission from the Gram Sabha authorising the demolition. The Magistrate blatantly ignored this imperative procedure and ordered the demolition to proceed by 8 am. As the demolition began, a photojournalist, two students from IISc Bangalore, another from Gujarat, and I were manhandled and detained in a van. Our cameras and our bags were confiscated and two of us were beaten with malice. The photojournalist Javed Iqbal was deliberately singled out for his reports on police atrocities and beaten. Later, we were all taken to the Dantewada police station, and made to give statements on our motives, our identities and our perceptions of the work of Vanvasi Chetna Ashram. We were then taken to the hospital for a medical check-up under police supervision where no one really checked for physical injuries. We were eventually released after the check-up. Regarding the continuation of my internship, I have no compulsions to leave. If I didn’t have two more years of college to finish, I would have stayed back and continued to be a part of the struggle for social justice, being in the company of incredible people and social workers like Himanshu Kumar, Kopa Kunjam, Akkalbatti Naag, Sukhdev Kadiyam, Abhay Sinh Rathwa along with researcher Bela Bhatia and photojournalist Javed Iqbal. These are the people who are still upholding the principles of Gandhian idealogy against an increasingly brutal state machinery, that shows no signs of giving up. III. http://www.binayaksen.net/2009/05/two-sides-to-democracy/ http://www.telegraphindia.com/1090523/jsp/opinion/story_10994522.jsp TWO SIDES TO DEMOCRACY - The demolition of a Gandhian ashram in Chhattisgarh Posted at May 23, 2009 Politics and Play - Ramachandra Guha The Telegraph , Calcutta In the early hours of May 17, while the rest of India was asleep after an election conducted honestly and won fairly, a massive contingent of police and paramilitary descended on a Gandhian ashram in the interior of Chhattisgarh. They woke up the sleeping social workers, and gave them exactly one hour to pack their belongings. The Gandhians were then escorted outside the ashram that had been their home, thus making way for the bulldozers that had been sent to demolish it. The machines were supervised by some 500 men in uniform, variously owing allegiance to the Central Reserve Police Force and the Chhattisgarh state police. Over the course of that Sunday, as the rest of India was considering the consequences of the election just held, the Vanvasi Chetna Ashram in Dantewada was razed to the ground. The office, the training hall, the staff quarters, even the tubewells — nothing was spared. In the summer of 2006, I had myself eaten several meals in that ashram in Dantewada. Its founder, Himanshu, is a sharp-eyed, well-built, and forever smiling man in his late forties. Originally from Meerut, he was inspired by Vinoba Bhave and Nirmala Deshpande to devote his life to the adivasis of central India. In 1992, he moved with his wife to Dantewada to fulfil his calling. He recruited a group of local boys and girls, and with their assistance worked on bringing education and healthcare to the adivasis. By the time I visited the Vanvasi Chetna Ashram, it had established a solid presence in the district. Its campus lay in the little village of Kanwalnar, about 10 miles from Dantewada town. Ringed by mango trees, the ashram contained a set of low, modest buildings where the members lived. From this home in the forest they ventured out into the surrounding countryside, to work among the Gonds and Koyas and Murias of the district. The activities of the Vanvasi Chetna Ashram would be reckoned by most people in most times to be uncontroversial. But these are dangerous times in Dantewada, with a civil war raging between Maoist revolutionaries and a vigilante group promoted by the state administration and known as Salwa Judum. In this war, the tribals are caught in-between — so are Gandhian social workers. No one living in the district of Dantewada is now allowed to be neutral, to condemn even-handedly the barbaric acts of the Naxalites as well as the barbaric acts of the Salwa Judum. As a consequence of the civil war, more than 50,000 tribals in Dantewada have been uprooted from their homes. Some left voluntarily; while many others were forcibly displaced by the Salwa Judum or by the Maoists. These refugees live in camps strung along the main road, in leaking and unstable tents, and without proper access to food, water, and means of employment. Many victims of the civil war fled across the border to Andhra Pradesh, where they live in equally pathetic conditions. After months of living in this way, some tribals asked that they be allowed to return to their villages, so that they could live in their own homes, and close to their lands and their livestock. While the state wanted them to stay on in the camps, the villagers were encouraged to go back by the Vanvasi Chetna Ashram. Thus Himanshu and his co-workers set about rehabilitating those adivasis who wished to have no more of life in the camps. The pretext behind the demolition of the Vanvasi Chetna Ashram is that the campus has ‘encroached’ on government forest land. The Gandhians, on the other hand, insist that they built on revenue land acquired legally and with permission from the local panchayat. The case is currently being heard in the local courts. Rather than await the court’s verdict, the district authorities uniliaterally chose to demolish the ashram, in what is very clearly an act of vindictive retaliation against the refusal by these Gandhians to wholly condone the support to the Salwa Judum of the Chhattisgarh state government. As it happened, four students from the Indian Institute of Science in Bangalore were visiting Dantewada on the weekend of 16/17 May. They were thus eye-witnesses to the ashram’s demolition. One scholar I spoke to said that the sub-divisional magistrate directing the operations, Ankit Anand, was particularly belligerent. When a student weakly protested, Anand commanded the police to have him silenced. The boy was taken away, beaten up, and asked to confess that the good Gandhian Himanshu was (a) an agent of the Naxalites; and (b) running a prostitution racket. It was surely not an accident that the state of Chhattisgarh chose the very weekend that the election results were being declared to carry out this savage act of retribution. Who, at a time like this, would care about a violation of democracy in a remote and inaccessible corner of the country while the world was celebrating the victory of democracy in India as a whole? For this writer, the juxtaposition of these two events was powerfully symbolic. For I have long argued that India is a ‘50-50’ democracy. In the formal, institutional sense of holding fair elections contested by many parties, allowing freedom of movement for its citizens, and nurturing a free press, India is indeed democratic. But in other respects, it falls short of the democratic ideal. Kin and caste play far too important a part in politics and governance. Levels of corruption among politicians and officials are unacceptably high. The autonomy of the judiciary is somewhat compromised. The use of force by the State is often capricious and arbitrary. Even in safe and (mostly) peaceable places like my hometown, Bangalore, one can occasionally encounter the dark side of Indian democracy — as in tax officials who take bribes, or politicians who fill in common waterbodies and sell them to private builders. But it is in the conflict zones of Kashmir, the Northeast, and central India, that the State shows itself at its most unappealing. To be sure, there are extenuating circumstances, such as separatist movements and revolutionary struggles. But to explain is not to apologize. One must condemn the violence used by the Naxalites and by the Kashmiri insurgents. One must yet insist that the Indian State, our State, be held to a higher order of morality and accountability. Over the past few years, the government of Chhattisgarh has had a particularly undistinguished record in this respect. The burning of adivasi villages under the government-sponsored Salwa Judum has been documented in a series of independent reports. Then there is the unconscionable incarceration without bail of the respected social worker and doctor, Binayak Sen, on the very flimsy charge of carrying a letter from one Naxalite to another. Now comes this savage act of retribution against a group of law-abiding, peace-loving, and utterly non-violent Gandhians. Supporters of the Chhattisgarh government deflect such criticism by pointing to the fact that the chief minister of the state has won a series of elections. But democracy does not begin and end with the counting of votes. Those elected to political office are sworn to uphold the rule of law, and to honour the ideals of the Indian Constitution. This holds true at the national as well as provincial levels. It applies equally to Congress-led governments as to Bharatiya Janata Party-led ones. So long as incidents such as the demolition of the Vanvasi Chetna Ashram occur and recur, India will not count as much more than a 50 per cent democracy. ramguha at hotmail.com IV. http://petitions.aidindia.org/VCA/ Petition to express deep shock and dismay at the illegal demolition of the premises of Vanvasi Chetna Ashram To: Ms. Pratibha Patil, President of India Mr. ESL Narasimhan Governor of Chhattisgarh India Mr. Raman Singh Chief Minister Chhattisgarh,India cc: Mr. Joy Oommen, Chief Secretary of Chhattisgarh, and Mr. RP Jain, Home Secretary of Chhattisgarh We are writing to express deep shock and dismay at the illegal demolition of the premises of Vanvasi Chetna Ashram (VCA) by the local administrative authorities on the morning of 17th May 2009, and the subsequent detention, harassment and brutalization of students and journalists working with VCA by the police. We condemn the campaign of vilification and harassment that the state administration has unleashed against VCA, and demand its immediate end. Vanvasi Chetna Ashram, has been working for the welfare of the adivasi (indigenous) people of south Bastar (Chhattisgarh, central India) since 1992, consistently fighting for their legal rights and access to their forests, lands and livelihood.. Since 2005, VCA has also called for government accountability and social justice in light of the violence against adivasis and their forced displacement from their villages by the state-sponsored militia Salwa Judum in Dantewada and Bijapur districts. VCA is one of the few community organizations engaged in resettlement and rehabilitation of displaced adivasis[1] by organizing individual and community support under very adverse conditions,and is also providing themlegal aid. VCA has recently been involved in highlighting the complicity of the state administration in several cases of extrajudicial killings—including the case of Singaram massacres, where 19 villagers were killed on 8th January, 2009. What was initially presented by the state as a case of Maoist insurgents being killed in an alleged “encounter” with the state security forces was later revealed by media and human rights organizations to be a staged killing of unarmed villagers[2]. VCA has been at the forefront of asking the government for accountability, and has brought this case to the Chhattisgarh High Court. It is therefore, particularly alarming to note that the Sub Divisional Magistrate who carried out the demolition of the VCA premises, Mr. Ankit Anand, is also the one who conducted the magisterial inquiry in the Singaram killings, and has a clear conflict of interest. Ever since VCA took a strong stance against the government’s support of Salwa Judum a few years ago, the government has been conducting an unending campaign of harassment against the organization, as detailed below: ·In February 2007, a case of “illegal” encroachment on village forest was lodged against VCA, even though the said piece of land had been granted to them by the Kawalnar Gram Sabha resolution in 1994. VCA challenged this original notice in the court.[3] ·In July 2007, while the case was still under consideration in the courts, VCA was issued an eviction order by the local revenue official, ordering them to immediately vacate their premises.[4] ·In January 2008, VCA received another notice from the Registrar of Firms and Societies in Chhattisgarh, threatening to cancel their registration under the Societies Registration Act of 1973, on the basis of the complaint of the District Collector that they have encroached government land (even though the matter was still sub judice).[5] ·In December 2008, VCA’s registration under the Foreign Contribution Regulation Act, 1976, was “temporarily suspended in public interest” without any reason being provided—making it impossible for them to receive funding from international organizations. [6] ·Finally, on 16th May 2009, the VCA was delivered a notice dated 13th May, informing them that their premises were going to be bulldozed the next day. Not only is this a blatantly illegal notice, considering that the matter was still under judicial consideration, the late delivery of the notice also ensured that the VCA were also left with no time to move the courts to get an injunction to stay the order (the 16th being a holiday). [7] Even though the VCA immediately responded to the notice informing the local administration of the status of the case, it made no difference. On the morning of the 17th of May, a 500 strong posse of policemen, Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF) and other security forces cordoned off the area, and bulldozed the entire structure, painstakingly put together by the VCA and the local community over 17 years, not even sparing the tubewells and an open well which had been constructed by the Government. The police and armed personnel manhandled five VCA visitors and staff members, including a freelance photojournalist, two PhD research scholars from Indian Institute of Science, Bangalore, one woman student intern from the corporate firm Symbiosis, Pune, a relative of the Director, who was there on a personal visit and a health worker.[8] We unequivocally condemn the systematic campaign of harassment and intimidation that the administration has launched against Vanvasi Chetna Ashram, and demand that it be immediately halted and the organization be fully and properly compensated. Not only has the administration flouted all norms in ordering the demolition of a structure still under court’s consideration, the undue haste and urgency shown in implementing this order is also very disturbing. Furthermore, we note that this area is governed by Schedule V, and hence, Gram Sabhas have the primary responsibility to take all decisions over land use. However, by effecting this demolition, the administration has shown utter disregard for the opinion of the Gram Sabha. We demand the following: · An end to the systematic harassment of all human rights activists and critics of the Chhattisgarh state. · Immediate legal action against the officials who ordered and carried out the illegal demolition. · Full compensation to VCA and the rebuilding of its premises. · Immediate action against the police officials responsible for the brutalization of the visitors and staff members. · An assurance from the administration, that it will seek explicit consent of the Gram Sabha before erecting or demolishing any further structures in the area., Sincerely, Peace Is Doable ________________________________ Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter now! --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "humanrights movement" group. To post to this group, send email to humanrights-movement at googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to humanrights-movement+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/humanrights-movement?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~--- -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Mon May 25 10:07:28 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 10:07:28 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] From "A Plea for Leninist Intolerance, " by Slavoj Zizek : Message-ID: <1f9180970905242137n473b5828xd399d8b55212f932@mail.gmail.com> >From "A Plea for Leninist Intolerance," by Slavoj Zizek : Full: "Fidelity to the democratic consensus means the acceptance of the present liberal-parliamentary consensus, which precludes any serious questioning of how this liberal-democratic order is complicit in the phenomena it officially condemns and, of course, any serious attempt to imagine a society whose sociopolitical order would be different. "In short, it means say and write whatever you want on the condition that what you do does not effectively question or disturb the predominant political consensus. So everything is allowed, solicited even, as a critical topic. [...] "The problem is that all this occurs against the background of a fundamental _Denkverbot_, a prohibition against thinking. Today's liberal-democratic hegemony is sustained by a kind of unwritten _Denkverbot_ similar to the infamous _Berufsverbot_ in Germany of the late sixties; the moment one shows a minimal sign of engaging in political projects that aim to seriously challenge the existing order, the answer is immediately: "Benevolent as it is, this will necessarily end in a new Gulag!" "[...] The moment one seriously questions the existing liberal consensus, one is accused of abandoning scientific objectivity for the outdated ideological positions. "This is the point that one cannot and should not concede: today, actual freedom of thought must mean *the freedom to question the predominant liberal-democratic postideological consensus--or it means nothing*. -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From pawan.durani at gmail.com Mon May 25 10:16:19 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 10:16:19 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Massacres - Part 1 Message-ID: <6b79f1a70905242146t711ad682sa2248dd8705c0201@mail.gmail.com> Purushyar Massacre - A tale from Pathan Raj By Dr. Ramesh Kumar Buland Khan Bamzai ruled Kashmir in 1763 as Governor of the Kabul government. According to Prof. RK Parimu, the noted historian, he was a man of attractive address. The governor used to take greater interest to serve himself rather than his subjects. One evening, while enjoying a boat-ride in Jehlum, his eyes fell on Mugli. She was the daughter of a milk-man and had irresistible  beauty. The governor desired to make her his wife, soon the nikah was solemnized. The milkman's neighbour in the Purushyar locality was the family of Atma Ram Pandit. This well-to-do Pandit family dealt in Pashmina wool and arms manufacturing. Atma Ram was grandson of Krishan Pandit and had two uncles--Zai Ram and Nilakanth. Zai Ram led an ascetic life. Nilakanth was blind since birth. His wife, Umrawati (Shoba) committed Sati, when her husband died. As per Kashmiri custom, a close acquaintance accompanies the bridge to her in-law's house as 'boya' (brother). Atma Ram accompanied Mughli as 'boya'. Soon, he gained entry in Governor's administration. In those times Pt. Jeevan Sab, a saint of great merit, lived at Rainawari. Pandit Dila Ram Quli and some Ganjoo, both natives of Rainawari, were his disciples. One day, the saint asked them to desire for something. Ganjoo said he should have enough food for seven generations. The family was to acquire big Jagirs subsequently. Dila Ram aspired for 'Hakumat' i.e. an administrative post. Soon, thereafter, Dila Ram gained entry in Buland Khan's administration. Atma Ram was quite junior to him in the administrative hierarchy. There was serious shortage of cloth. The Governor invited suggestions for settling terms with weavers of Tral. He accepted the suggestion of Atma Ram. Sulking Dila Ram taunted Atma Ram, telling him the Governor was bound to accept his suggestion, because he was 'brother' of Mugli. Mir Muqim Kanth, a notable, had been killed in a palace intrigue. His family suspected Kailash Dhar of playing foul. During the rule of Amir Khan Jawansher (1770), Muqim's son Mir Fazil Kanth became Chief Secretary. He hatched a conspiracy and succeeded in killing Kailash Dar. Mir Fazil Kanth extended his vengeance to the entire Pandit community. Prof. RK Parimu and Hassan Khuihami have recorded his atrocities at length. Dila Ram Quli had also receded into the background Dila Ram Quli becomes powerful: Haji Karim Dad Khan, soon after taking over, eliminated the Kanth family and appointed Dila Ram Quli as Chief Secretary. Karim Dad ruled like a reckless, merciless tyrant. His repressive and oppressive policies alienated the entire populace. When Karimdad fell ill, he asked his son, Azad Khan to take over the reins, without informing Kabul. He was just eighteen. George Forester, a European Traveller, who visited Kashmir in Azad Khan's reign, describes him as awful, ferocious, bad-tempered. In his cruelties he surpassed even his father. Everyday he would order one or two persons to be killed for no fault. Dila Ram succeeded, where even Azad Khan's mother and wife had failed. Azad made him Madarul-Miham, the Prime Minister. Dila Ram wielded tremendous influence over Azad Khan and came to be called Dila Ram Quli Khan. Azad Khan's temperamental fits even alienated his faithful servants. Two of his trusted aides--Pahalwan Khan and Maluk Khan hatched up a conspiracy to murder Azad Khan. They won over Izmat Khan, the body guard of Azad Khan. One night, Izmat, fired a shot at Azad Khan but missed the aim. The Governor jumped into Jehlum and escaped to Dila Ram Quli's house at Rainawari. The conspirators pursued Azad Khan. Their attempts to enter Dila Ram's house failed. Dila Ram suffered minor injuries. The whole night, people of Rainawari witnessed skirmishes between the partisans of Izmat Khan and Azad Khan. The following morning Azad Khan reached Maisuma. Pahalwan Khan, who failed to counter the state forces, took shelter behind the walls of Sher Garhi. The state forces laid siege to the fort. This continued for a week. Pahalwan Khan was killed and the rebellion crushed. Dila Ram Quli consolidated his position further. His used this, to settle old scores with Atma Ram Pandit. Dila Ram's wit had outwitted even Timur Shah Durani at Kabul Durbar. He poisoned the ears of Azad Khan and falsely  implicated Atma Ram in the conspiracy to murder Azad Khan. The tyrant Governor ordered the elimination of the entire clan of Pandit Atma Ram. Azad Khan declared that he would visit the area personally in the afternoon to see if his orders were duly carried out. Purushyar Massacre: As Azad Khan's forces arrived, Atma Ram, with son Sudarshan in his lap, was watching from the window of his house. A sympathetic officer signalled him to escape. He, alongwith his son, jumped into the river and took shelter in the house of a milk-man. The state forces butchered the entire clan of Atma Ram, which as per family story, comprised 37 members. When the identification of the dead was carried out, the troops failed to find the body of Atma Ram. This was conveyed to the Governor, who issued orders for burning down the entire locality. This was duly carried out., with dead bodies also perishing in the fire. The Governor asked his staff to make a public announcement that any person who brought Atma Ram dead or alive would be suitably rewarded. The sympathetic milk-man had hid Atma Ram and Sudarshan in his cow-shed. Atma Ram's close relation, Pandit Manas Razdan, the famous saint of his times, lived across the river in Banamohalla. Their mothers were sisters. Manas Razdan belonged to the family of Bhaskar Razdan, who has  written a commentary on 60 sayings of Lalleswari to Sanskrit verse. Grandson of this great literateur, Manas Razdan was popularly called Razdan Sab. The street, presently called Razdan Kocha is named after him. Subsequently, Manas Razdan migrated to Qiladar, Gujrat (eastern Punjab). The saint owned huge Jagirs across Baramulla and was a 'Darbari' in Azad Khan's reign. Having come to know that Azad Khan had let loose his soldiers to catch his cousin, Atma Ram, Razdan Sab asked his cook to trace whereabouts of Atma Ram. After sometime the cook brought the news that Atma Ram was safe alongwith his son. The latter was kept in hiding by a milkman in his cowshed. He survived milk only. Six months later Atma Ram passed away. The milkman brought the news to Razdan Sab. The former was scared that if Azad Khan came to know the real story his family would be in serious trouble. Loyal milkman brought Sudarshan to Razdan Sab's house. A strategy was worked out to dispose off the dead body of Atma Ram. Razdan Sab's house was more like an ashram, where Sadhus from different parts of India came and stayed. Razdan Sab asked one of the sadhus to run away during the night. The body of Atma Ram was stealthily brought to Razdan Sab's ashram. The following morning it was announced that a sadhu had died. Due care was taken to perform the funeral rites as per religious rituals. The subsequent, Kriya Karam (post-cremation rituals) were performed, as per family account, at Budgam, away from the watchful eyes of the tyrant Governor. Sudarshan was brought up under the care of Razdan Sab and received good education. After few years Juma Khan Alkozai was appointed Governor of Kashmir in 1788. For his just rule and benevolence, Jumma Khan earned lot of popularity. The new Governor was son of the sister of Buland Khan Bamzai, the former Governor. Upon his nomination as Governor, Juma Khan was asked by Mugli, wife of Buland Khan Bamzai, to trace the whereabouts of her foster brother, Atma Ram Pandit. Dila Ram Quli had functioned as Dewan during the Governorship of Mirdad Khan (1786088). He continued to be top aide to Juma Khan also. As long as Dila Ram remained in command, Sudarshan had every reason to be afraid of the administration. One day, Juma Khan had called a meeting of a prominent citizens (Durbaris). Razdan sab too had been invited. He took Sudarshan along with him. Atma Ram's son disclosed his identity to the Governor and prayed for clemency. On learning that he had been able to fulfill the wish of his maternal aunt by tracing Atma Ram's family,  Governor turned emotional and told Sudarshan that he was nephew of Buland Khan. The Governor informed Sudarshan that his aunt had asked him to help the family of Atma Ram in every way possible. For three years Juma Khan had been trying to locate the family of Atma Ram without any result. Dila Ram had been the villain in frustrating his efforts. Despite the fact the new Governor was popular for his benevolence, Sudarshan was reluctant to present himself before the Governor, presuming that Dila Ram may have poisoned the ears of the new Governor as well. Sudarshan in his litany told Juma Khan that it was a torturing experience for him to stay in the same city, where his entire clan had been annihilated. Juma Khan appointed Sudarshan as Kardar of Breng Pargana. Dila Ram beheaded: Mir Hazar Khan replaced Juma Khan as Governor in 1793. To live under Hazar Khan was a nightmarish experience for Kashmiri Pandits. It was during his reign that Pandits were put in sacks and drowned in Dal Lake (Bata Mazar). Dila Ram Quli, the most powerful and influential Pandit, also met his nemesis. He was publicly beheaded in Khanyar Chowk. His death did not solve problems for Sudarshan. The latter had some problem in settling the accounts of Paddy. So Sudarshan decided to leave alongwith his wife and two sons and sought employment in Raja of Chenani's Durbar. Soon, Sudarshan emerged as a confidante of the Raja and invited jealousy of his vizier, who was a local. The latter got Sudarshan poisoned to death through a conspiracy. Raja was unaware about the conspiracy and called on Parvati, Sudarshan's wife to express his concern over her plight. She told the Raja, "King's gift is heavy. I cannot take it." She, alongwith her sons-Shiv Ram and Narayan, however, continued to stay in Chenani. Parvati belonged to Rawal family of Bidder in Breng region. This family too had to flee its native village during Pathan rule. Some Pathan troops were on patrol duty in Bidder area. A soldier had tried to make advances towards a lady of Rawal family. Like a brave lady, the examples of which are too few, she not only rebuffed the soldier but humiliated him by showing her foot. This was too much for Pathans to stomach. The entire Rawal locality was burnt down. With great difficulty members of Rawal clan managed to save their lives. Since they had nothing to eat, they shifted to Brariangan, the abode of Godess Uma, where ashram langar provided food to the needy round the clock. Naqashbandi family of Takiya Peer in Breng had lot of murids in present Himachal Pradesh, Utter Pradesh and Jammu region, including Chenani. The Pirs of this family used to visit Chenani every year. Pathan rule was drawing to a close. Parvati decided to return to Kashmir. Through Pirs she contacted Ganesh Das, her brother. The Pir family was to produce two powerful politicians - Nizamuddin Khan, Member of Parliament and Abdul Rashid Vakil, Minister for Power Development. Gandesh Das Rawal reached Chenani to take his sister and her sons back home. While returning to Kashmir they halted for night at Banihal. Two Pathan soldiers, who were on the run, met them there. Pathan soldiers liked the brown hair of Narayan and asked Parvati, "Iee Shalgam royeahs", telling her to gift her son to them. Parvati decided to play ball with them. She told them since she had to part with her dear son, she would hold him in embrace for the night and then decide in the morning what to do. During the night there was some unusual noise. Pathans thought that the Sikh soldiers had reached Banihal. So they left. Parvati went on to stay with Rawal family at Brariangan. Then begins the second part of the story of the family of Atma Ram Pandit. Descendants of Atma Ram Pandit Parvati and her children stayed with Rawal family at Brari Angan. Her brother's wife did not like Parvati's continued stay at her house. Soon she was forced to move out. Parvati got renovated a small dilapidated Paddy hut (Kuth) and shifted her family to it. Her family survived on food prepared in Ashram langar. Brari Angan, alongwith Gosaingund, Gautam Nag (in Anantnag district) and Gosainteng (Baramulla town), was among the places, where sadhus, on pilgrimage to the holy cave of Lord Amarnath, used to halt for many days. The natural and spiritual ambience of these places appealed to the sadhus. Narayan Pandit : One day, an eccentric sadhu created a scene. He had demanded Dal (Cooked Pulses) at the langar but was instead served milk. This infuriated him. He lost his cool and thrashed the langar people with a trident. Since Narayan Pandit, the son of Parvati, knew Hindi well, he was requested by ashram-management to serve as interpreter for the visiting sadhus. This enhanced the prestige of Narayan Pandit. He was soon to catch the attention of one of the great saints Bhol Nath who had attained the power of 'Parkaya Pravaresh’. As the tradition says the people with such powers could turn themselves into lion etc. This spiritually elevated sadhu used to do his tapasya (offering prayers) at the nearby Sochalmaidan. Narayan Pandit would take milk to him. The saint, impressed by Narayan, asked him to accompany him to Amarnath. It snowed quite heavily during the yatra. The saint offered his Lion-skin to the young Narayan to keep him away from cold injury. Narayan became his disciple and received 'Guru Upadesh'.  Some years later, Kanwar Sher Singh, son of Maharaja Ranjit Singh, was appointed Governor of Kashmir. The previous governor Bahama Singh Ardali, who had taken over Governorship on 5 May, 1831, failed to govern. There was a Shia-Sunni riot, this affected shawl industry. Maharaja Ranjit Singh indicted Bahama Singh for not taking preemptive measures. A leading Kashmiri merchant Mian Samad Joo personally went to the Maharaja to narrate Bahma Singh's callous attitude and indifference during the riots. Maharaja decided to send his son, Kanwar Sher Singh, who had distinguished himself in the Balakot battle against Syed Ahmad Barelvi, the leader of the Muslim revivalist movement (Wahabi) on 23 May 1831. Sher Singh, the son of Rani Mahtab Kaur, was a cheerful, intelligent, well-bred soldier and popular with the army. The new Governor Kanwar Sher Singh entered Kashmir via Baramulla route in January 1832. He did not have a smooth time initially. During the first winter of his tenure, Kashmir reeled under severe cold. All rivers and lakes were frozen. Many domestic animals and cattle perished. The population suffered due to scarcity of water and fuel. The governor too had his share of suffering. His official residence in Shergarhi fort, Srinagar, caught fire twice. The entire shopping complex in the neighbourhood was engulfed in the flames. Then fire took its toll of Ahlamar locality (Badiyar bala), adjacent to Habbakadal. It destroyed many dwellings and caused immense hardships to their residents. A new diversion-Nav Sarak (Nai Sarak) was created for pedestrians. These incidents have been docum-ented at length by Pandit Birbal Kachru in his chronicle. Majma-at-Tawarikh: Auckland papers describe Prince Sher Singh as 'clever and bold', but 'wild and unprincipled'. Traveller GT Vigne speaks of him, as needy and spend-thrift' and 'cruel and rapacious', while McGregore says the Prince was addicted to "wine and women to an excessive degree" and "a complete drunkard and debauchee". Dewan Wasakha Singh fed this appetite of the prince to remain free to rule independently. Prince Sher Singh was fond of hunting. The family Guru, a well-learned Pandit and Sh. Ganesh Dhar, a revenue administrator used to accompany him on these hunting jaunts. On one occasion Prince Sher Singh was on a hunting expedition in Kuthar area and camped at Uma Nagri. He did not pay any regard to Mahant Ramanand of Uma Nagri ashram. For some days hunting yielded no dividends. He also had syncope once. After recovering fromt it the  Prince was asked to meet the Mahant. The latter told him he should refrain from hunting in Uma Nagri which was Devi's area, where even the  birds and animals paid obeisance to the Devi. Mahant signalled the Governor to go for hunting in the nearby Shergund area. This proved to be sound advice. The Prince shot down nine shikars one after the other in a single day. The Prince's Guru and Pt. Ganesh Dhar, Chief of Revenue Administration used to pray regularly at Devibal. It was a daily routine for  Narayan Pandit to go to Devibal to offer prayers to the goddess. Guru on hearing the prayer of Narayan Pandit felt a little amazed. He made enquiries about the identity of Narayan. Parvati, whose family had suffered much political persecution, felt scared. She kept her son in hiding. Finally, she was prevailed upon to produce her son before the Prince's guru. The latter asked him if he was the same person who recited a particular prayer at Devibal in his presence. When Narayan repeated the recitation, the Guru held him in tight embrace, telling him," your and mine guru are the same person (Bhol Nath), so you are my Guru-brother”. The Guru asked Pt. Ganesh Dhar to pay his regards to Naryan Pandit as he was a great religious scholar. The two asked Narayan about family's economic position. Narayan replied that his family members had come as fugitives from Chenani and made their living on ashram food. This moved the Guru and Pt. Ganesh Dhar. Narayan was introduced to Prince Sher Singh at Uma Nagri. The former was granted huge Jagirs (totalling 240 acres) at Uma Nagri (adjacent to the mahant's land), Halqa Uttarssu, Kreri, Ranipora, Halan, Sherpora, Opassan, Krad, Cheikhgund, Ondo, Trahop, Sonsun, Shangas-Nowgam etc. The rent was exempted, Narayan's family was also kept outside the 'Karbegar' labour. He was asked to collect the patta from Srinagar. Even after the land settlement, carried out by Sir Walter Larence, Narayan Pandit's family continued to be in possession of 100 Khirwars of land. Some of the Jagirs were confiscated by later rulers but later restored. Narayan Pandit had decided not to marry. His brother Shiv Ram too was a bachelor. It was on the prodding of Mirza Kak, the great Kashmiri saint of Hangalgund that Narayan relented. He married Pt. Sat Ram Pandit's (of Hangalgund) daughter. Mirza Kak had told Narayan that he will give birth to children who will, be like Gul and Phul (genius and handsome) but Taet Tah Maet (short-tempered and eccentric). Till 31 years of age, Narayan remained issueless. He decided to take his cousin's son Nidhan Rawal in adoption. Subsequently, Narayan's wife gave birth to three sons--Amarchand, Lakshman and Vasudev; Lakshman was taken in adoption by Shiv Ram, Narayan's brother. Prof. TN Madan's field work: The village of Brari Angan was to catch attention of the renowned anthropologist, Prof. TN Madan in 1950s. He decided to study the twin villages of Umanagri-Uttersoo for his field work. This anthropologist was so fascinated by these villages and the cooperation extended to him by the local Kashmiri Pandits that he asked one of his students, Urvashi Misri to do a field study on Pandit children and women in the same villages three decades later. Kashmiri Pandits of Brari Angan remember well the two scholars. This landmark study made Prof Madan a great name in Indian Anthropology. This work was later published in 1965 under the title 'Family and Kinship - A Study of the Pandits of Rural Kashmir'. Two more editions of this book came out subsequently. Prof. Madan did his field work in these twin villages between January 1957 and January 1958. References to Prof. Madan and his book are being made in this write-up because the book throws some light on some Pandits, who hail from Atma Ram Pandit's clan. About this clan, Prof. TN Madan says, "There is one Uma Nagri family which boasts of many Sanskrit scholars (Pandit) and astrologers (Jyotishi) including Narayan Pandit among its ancestors, but today only two of its male members can lay any claim to traditional scholarship". The great Anthropologist calls this clan 'as one of the most respected and rich families of the village'. Pandits of Atma Ram's clan are Banamasis, their Ishta Devi is Jwaladevi of Khrew, while the gotra is Dev Vatse Upamanyu Laugakshi. Their Kulprohit used to be Pt. Jagar Nath Handoo of Srinagar. Some of the prominent descendants of late Atma Ram Pandit, who achieved excellence in religious and Sanskrit scholarship are: Lakshman Pandit: Richest person of his time in his area-he was a great philanthropist. Vasudev Pandit: Son of Narayan Pandit, Vasudev Pandit was well known in Kashmir and in the rest of India for his erudite scholarship in religious studies and social history. He was known better by alias Vasudev Kuthari and was employed by Dogra Durbar as a religious scholar. He was paid hefty sum of Rs 500 per year. He was trained by Pt. Sahib Ram Pandit, the author of Tiratha Samgraha. Another well-known descendant of Pt. Sahib Ram has been Pt. Mahanand pandit, a famed Astrologer and a former President of Priests' Association. Sahib Ram belonged to Pandit clan, known for high scholarship. This group reely intermarried with Karkun class. Sahib Ram's family also trained besides Vasudev, Shankar Pandit and possibly Amarchand also. Vasudev was very influential. People were scared of him because of his eccentric behaviour. Janki Prasad, a non-Kashmiri was a senior revenue official. A widow asked Vasudev to get a job for her son. Vasudev ignored the normal protocol and just shouted from Prasad's main gate, "Appoint this widow's son as a Tehsildar". The Revenue official complied with Vasudev's "orders". Such was the writ of Vasudev. Whenever religious scholars came from outside, Kashmiri scholars would request Vasudev to be their spokesperson in religious discussions. It is said that Vasudev could recite over 60,000 verses from his memory without any fault. Vasudev stayed at the house of Keshav Nath alias Keshav Pulsi in Srinagar. After his demise, Keshav Nath's family asked Vasudev's family to collect many bagloads of manuscripts and books left behind by Vasudev from his Srinagar residence. Unfortunately, the family did not realise the importance of this treasure. Vasudev was married to sister of Pt. Shiv Nath Soma, who as per one account, was Chief Conservator of Forests of entire J&K. Pt. Shiv Nath, a resident of Rainawari, who later settled in Jammu, became a legend for his outstanding qualities. Vasudev left behind a daughter married in Kissu family and a son Maheshwar  Nath. Pt. Shiv Nath Soma wanted his nephew to be a contractor but Maheshwar Nath was a man of simple disposition. He was just a matriculate but knew English very well. Through his maternal uncle he was employed as a forester and reached to the rank of  Ranger. In his times he was one of the few persons who used to read national English dailies. Pt. Maheshwar Nath after his marriage shifted to his in-law's village, Levdora, Qazigund. Maheshwar Nath's wife, the only daughter of her parents was an intelligent lady. Maheshwar Nath's exemplary honesty and truthfulness in discharging his official duties made him renowned. Some of the incidents are being recalled here. Once, he imposed fine of Rs 5/- on his wife for bringing a wooden mortar (Muhul) illegally from the forest. On another occasion he attended a dinner at the nearby village of Nowgam. After the dinner was over, Pt. Maheshwar Nath asked his hosts, "where from did you get the wood of the ceiling roof? You would have to pay fine for it". Once during a drought he had some dispute with his tenants, Pt. Maheshwar Nath had inherited share of 350 kanals of land. Due to Kargili traders, price of Maize had shot up to Rs 50-60 per Khirwar. Tenants expressed their inability to pay this price. Finally, Prem Nath Pandit, Sarpanch of the village and a kin of Pt. Maheshwar Nath, intervened in the dispute to settle mutually acceptable terms. He settled Rs. 35 per Khirwar to be paid to Pt. Maheshwar Nath. This was accepted by the tenants. But Pt. Moshar Nath told the tenants that he would not accept a penny more than the officially fixed price of Rs 8 per Khirwar. This put Sarpanch in quandry, tenants felt that the former had played fraud on them. Maheshwar Nath also confiscated a charcoal-laden boat, meant for his superior, a DFO. Maheshwar Nath had three sons - Niranjan Nath, Kedar Nath, Mohan Lal besides a daughter. Niranjan Nath and Kedar Nath achieved eminence in the field of journalism and were associated with Times of India and Indian Express respectively. Kedar Nath was a poet too. Niranjan Nath was the first BA from Atma Ram's clan. Late Kedar Nath's son, Pawan too is a journalist with Hindustan Times in New Delhi. A few years back he was staff correspondent of Indian Express in Jammu. Vishn Pandit: He was the eldest son of Lakshman Pandit. He was a high level forest official. He used to read national English and vernacular dailies regularly. As per family sources, Vishn Pandit had authored seven manuscripts which remained unpublished. Shankar Pandit : He was the son of Nidhan Pandit (originally Rawal). Shankar was a Vedanti scholar, who trained many Kashmiris in Vedic scholarship. He often engaged in religious discussions with learned Pandits of Benaras and excelled over them. It was his wish to pass his last days at Haridwar and passed away there. Prem Nath Pandit: He was son of Lakshman Pandit. He was classmate of leading political personalities - Mirza Afzal Beg, Pt. Shiv Naraina Fotedhar and Pt. Kashyap Bandhu, Saifuddin Ghani (DIG Police). He was a first division holder in Matric. Better known as Prem Nath Kuthari, he along with his brother Sham Sunder remained Yuvak Sabha Presidents, Kuthar area for a long-time. Sarvanand Pandit: He was son of Prasad Pandit and grandson of Lakhyman Pandit. He was born in 1906. He was one of the five members of 'convoy' of Prof. TN Madan. Because of dedication of these five people, the Mahant of Uma Nagri with his sense of repartee used to say: "They gave up their homes and wives and lost their night's sleep for his (Madan's) sake'. He also nicknamed them as 'convoy' because they used to move about in the village together with Prof. Madan. Sarvanand died as a bachelor. He lived off his land. He had his education at the local school and was for some time at the Technical (art) school in Srinagar. Sarwanand was a shy person and never wore turban or a pheran- in his life. Prof. Madan in a rare tribute describes Sarwanand as a "my" and said, "I think I met rara avis in him." He sums up many traits of Sarwanand as 'man of orthodox views and well-informed about the Sanskritic tradition', 'most unorthodox in his appearance', 'intelligent with natural gift of an amazingly prodigious memory', 'a shy lonely person who had a raw deal in his life', 'has an irrepressible but healthy curiosity about, social happenings in the village and great sense of humour. He once in Prof. Madan's presence surprised a fellow villager by showing greater knowledge of the latter's genealogy than the latter himself possessed. Sarwanand was a walking encyclopedia, who could recall at a minute's notice the 200-year old history of Uma Nagri and the origins of the different Pandit clans of the village. As per Prof. Madan, he had even kept a written record of some particularly notable events in the village during his lifetime. For Prof Madan's fieldwork, Pt. Sarwanand remained a key informant. He admits that his book has quoted more often from Pt. Sarwanand's statements than from anybody else's, with the possible exception of Bishamber Nath Koul. In Prof. Madan's work Pt. Sarwanand found an outlet for his passion for ethnography. He acknowledges his contribution by recording, "I had found in him the key informant that the ethnographer invariably seeks and cultivates. The opposition between the public and the private, the general and the particular, got resolved in his person. He was a source of information about the private and appreciated the legitimacy of making it public". About Pt. Sarwanand's interest, bordering on obssession, into prying into other people's domestic affairs, Prof. Madan has an explanation: 'Denied the opportunity of involvement in intimate relationships and events, he had developed an interest in them generally." Srikanth Pandit: He was the youngest member of Prof. Madan's 'convoy'. Srikanth is son of Pt. Raghav Ram and grandson of Pt. Amarchand. Like his father, Srikanth too practised astrology. He retired as village Post-Master . A religious minded person, Srikanth had learnt Sanskritic tradition from his father. Prof. Madan praises his traits - being affectionate and informal. Pt. Srikanth lives as a refugee in Swarn Vihar locality of Jammu. Ram Nath Pandit: He is son of Pt. Tarachand and grandson of Lakshman Pandit. He dropped out in F. Sc but retains good knowledge of languages including English. He  depended for living on his land. Like his cousin Pt. Sarwanand, Pt. Ram Nath too is well versed in religious scriptures and social history of Kashmiri Pandits. The way he reels out the information about the social history of the Pandit community is truly amazing. He has his own classification of Kauls, Razdans, and the Priestly class. It is through him we can visualise what sort of great scholar Sarwanand might have been. He has diligently preserved the history and the genealogy of his clan.  This author was even provided the name of Mugli's father-Musa Moghlu (which was inadvertently omitted in the first portion of this essay). However, in my opinion Moghlu might have been a boatman, rather than a Goor (milkman). Shri Ram Nath's equally illustrious son and the author's friend, Sh. Satish Mohan Pandit holds Masters degree  in English literature, besides the degrees in education and journalism. It was through Satish's efforts that the author was able to harvest the friendship for procuring the clan story to preserve it for posterity. Kashmir Sentinel From pawan.durani at gmail.com Mon May 25 10:23:11 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 10:23:11 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Massacres - Part 2 Message-ID: <6b79f1a70905242153x58d36b06hda790ae5d2b65be6@mail.gmail.com> Feb 1931 Kanikoot massacre 13th July 1931 was a conspiracy hatched by the British Political Department against Maharaja Hari Singh for his highly patriotic stand at the Round Table Conference in London. The other dimension of the plot was to coerce him to submit to the long promoted British demand for lease of strategic Gilgat. The conspiracy was implemented on the ground by Wakefield, Maharaja Hari Singh's Prime Minister and the British Resident. The objective of 13th July incident was to destabilize Maharaja's government, by provoking his Muslim subjects and terrorising the Kashmiri Hindus through unprovoked communal violence. There is overwhelming evidence to support this view. Year after year, Muslim organisations of Kashmir, including those that profess to be secular continued to observe this black day as 'The Martyrs Day’. This in a way is a reflection on the low level of secularisation in Kashmiri Muslim society. >From time to time patriotic leaders of stature from among other communities have been raising their voice against the attempts to politicise the communal happenings of 13th July and thereby accord respectability to the British Conspiracy and Communalism. To put the history in its proper perspective on the occasion of 75th Anniversary of the 13th July, 1931 incidents, we are publishing eyewitness accounts of the incidents in Srinagar and Kanikoot.  - The Editor Kanikoot is a village located few miles uphill from Nagam in Chadoora tehsil of Budgam. Nagam is a big village and old tehsil headquarters. It had sizeable Pandit population before 1990. Two Kashmiri Pandit families lived in Kanikoot village in 1931 - those of Pt. Zana Bhat and Pt. Janki Nath. Not long ago, Kanikoot used to be a dense forest. Ancestor of Zana Bhat had come to the village and settled there after clearing the forest area. Through sheer hard work and enterprise he acquired wealth. Since this huge tract of land could not be cultivated on his own, he encouraged Muslim peasants from other places to come there for tenancy. Many villages in Kashmir have come up this way during the past three centuries in areas close to forests. Pt. Janki Nath and his mother lived 100 metres away from Pt. Zana Bhat's house. Pt. Zana Bhat's family was pioneer in horticulture development in the area. Even in 1931 they had big fruit orchards. The family did not deal in moneylending business, as has been claimed by some uninformed people. For his affluence, Pt. Zana Bhat commanded prestige and authority in the area. Watakul was a neighbouring village and had no Pandit family as its residents. Kanikoot tenants were on good terms with Pt. Zana Bhat. In February 1931 nine members of Zana Kak's family were axed to death by some people from the adjoining Watakul village. Did this incident had any link with happenings of 13th July? There are no clear answers. The British agencies were already active and 13th July was the culmination of the nefarious policies they were pursuing to destabilise Maharaja Hari Singh. Pt. Zana Bhat's family had no problems with their tenants of Kanikoot nor did the family engage in usury. Even if it is assumed that the family had personal enmity with some family/people from Watakul village, could this have invited retribution of this magnitude? How could ordinary peasants under autocratic rule take such an action? How many such type of incidents have occurred in Kashmir during the proceeding decades? The circumstantial evidence points to a conspiracy. A few days before the incident, the conspirators had hatched a conspiracy and devised the modus operandi of targetting Pt. Zana Kak's family. On the fateful night, the conspirators reached Pt. Zana Kak's house. They called the sleeping family members to open the main door, pretending they had some urgent work. It seemed these people were quite familiar to the family and the latter trusted them. The conspirators hacked nine members of the family, including ladies and children, to death with an axe. Few members of the family, including Prem Nath who were studying in Srinagar survived. Thelone survivor in the massacre was a boy, who was sleeping with a Gujjar servant that time. After hacking their victims to death, the conspirators set on fire the top floor of the house to destroy the evidence. The loyal servant carried the lone survivor of the family with him and escaped through a window near the main staircase. Many of the bodies were half burnt. The servant went to a neighbouring peasant family and narrated the gory happenings. The following morning the servant in utter grief cried hysterically. The Gujjars from the surrounding areas too reached the massacre spot. Same evening Janki Nath and his mother left the village. So neatly was conspiracy hatched that it seemed even the Patwari of the area, who happened to be a Kashmiri Pandit, was in league with them orhad been bribed otherwise. The Patwari prepared a fictitious report, attributing the incident to a case of 'Atish Nagahani' (accidental fire). But for the evidence of the loyal Gujjar servant, the Patwari's report may have well been accepted by the government. After all the victims, and the Patwari belonged to the same community! The incident sent shock waves among the Kashmiri Pandit minority. Pandit population all over the Valley observed fast for two days, both as a mark of protest as well as to express their grief over the massacre. The trial was conducted by the Chief Judge, Sh. Arjan Nath Atal. Two of the 13 accused died during the period of trial. Besides the evidence of the lone survivor and the Gujjar servant, two of the accused turned approvers. It was established that the peasants of Kanikoot had no knowledge about the conspiracy,neither they stood as witnesses. They also did not demonstrate any sympathy with the conspirators. Pt. Janki Nath, the head of the other Pandit family also excused himself from favouring either of the party and deposed that at the time of massacre he was in deep sleep. Four days after the incident, Pt. Gopi Nath Bhat of village Woodru, Shoolipora accompanied Pt. Mahand Joo, press reporter of Daily Martand, from Srinagar to Kanikoot. He recalls, "when we reached Kankoot, the village looked desolate. The victims had no one to weep for them". The judge sentenced the 9 accused to death by hanging in 1933. All the accused belonged to Watakul village. Neither the Muslims nor the Pandits interfered in the trial nor did they politicise the matter and allowed the law to take its own course. Even the Muslim Conference which led 13th July agitation did not sympathise with the conspirators nor arranged any relief for the families of the accused. Pt. Zana Bhat's three grandsons - Prem Nath, Radhakr-ishnan and Jia Lal survived as they were in Srinagar at the time of massacre. In 1965, when Pak saboteurs entered Budgam, Radhkrishan, that time the village Chowkidar, was kidnapped by the saboteurs and was tied to a tree with rope. Locals rescued him. This again endorses the view the Kanikoot peasants had no enimity with Pt. Zana Bhat's family. Radhakrishnan continued to function as village Chowkidar till 1990. All this points that the Kanikoot was a conspiracy, the exact contours of which remain unidentified. Kashmir Sentinel From anivar.aravind at gmail.com Mon May 25 10:47:35 2009 From: anivar.aravind at gmail.com (Anivar Aravind) Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 10:47:35 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Live tweets from Binayak sen's Bail plea Hearing Message-ID: <35f96d470905242217y5b6e08a7n6b4082e0ac1eea43@mail.gmail.com> Follow Tweets from Supream Court Hearing on Binayak's Bail Plea http://twitter.com/binayaksen Updates so far #. but the chances are better than ever before.half a minute ago from mobile web #. today is the day. it will be bail or no bail. keep all ur fingers crossed!4 minutes ago from mobile web #. govt affidavit claims binayak likely to abscond if given bail. complains about media campaign and pressure from foreign nationals!10 minutes ago from mobile web #. c'garh govt arguing against bail saying the trial is almost over!12 minutes ago from mobile web #. hearing likely around 'eleven o clock.16 minutes ago from Twim #. shanthi bhushan to appear for binayak. soli sorabjee also present as support.16 minutes ago from Twim #. c'garh govt finally filed its counter affidavit last night. contents not yet known.17 minutes ago from Twim -- "The resources of the world are for us all to share. Let us affirm our faith in that common cause" - Dr. Ilina Sen From kmvenuannur at gmail.com Sat May 23 12:03:44 2009 From: kmvenuannur at gmail.com (Venugopalan K M) Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 12:03:44 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: [Secular Perspective] Looking forward to Peace and Justice Article for circulation In-Reply-To: <21fc17440905222107g370b49dbxa5ae6558e0aa3afc@mail.gmail.com> References: <21fc17440905222107g370b49dbxa5ae6558e0aa3afc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1f9180970905222333i5057b2b7uf353227137b83fd0@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: ram puniyani Date: Sat, May 23, 2009 at 9:37 AM Subject: [Secular Perspective] Looking forward to Peace and Justice Article for circulation To: ram puniyani Looking Forward to Peace and Progress Ram Puniyani The defeat of divisive forces in the recent elections (May 2009) is a matter of great relief. The rule of BJP led NDA (1999-2004) had created a situation whereby the norms of Constitution were given a go by and two set of norms, one for majority community and other for minorities started becoming visible. The worst of this is seen today in Gujarat where the minorities have been reduced to the status of second class citizens, bereft of the citizen’s rights which are their due. During the same regime the communalization of text books and infiltration of practitioners of religion based nationalism in different walks of life took place in a big way. The result has been the plethora of organizations which are part of RSS, called Sangh Parivar became very assertive and aggressive. The manifestations of this are visible not only in the justice deliverance system but also in the sporadic attacks on minorities scattered here and there. The manifestation of their rising assertion becomes painfully obvious in the attacks on Women, (Mangalore), Minorities, (Kandhamal) and total insensitivity to the victims of Gujarat violence. The base of many of this negative phenomenon in society does lie in the social common sense which has been propagated against the minorities and weaker sections of society, in a consistent and dangerous manner. It is in this background that the Indian electorate rose up to give a mandate for positive goal for an inclusive nation. This verdict also shows that communal politics may succeed once a while, but in a plural country like ours, inclusive agenda based on the values of freedom movement should hold on for long time. It is heartening to note that the National vote share of BJP has declined by around 2%, and even in Gujarat, where the leaders of carnage of 2002 are ruling; their vote share has gone down. Again in the background of 2004 verdict there is overwhelming verdict for a coalition which should stand for democratic-secular values. One hopes this mandate will give them an encouragement to uphold these values in a more sincere and honest way. The problems of people prevail in all arena of life; farmer’s suicides suggest agricultural situation needs more than just the farmer’s loan waivers. The levels of poverty and unemployment do tell us that time has come to take the next logical step of employment guarantee scheme to look at the pattern of growth and development where we can do away with the rampant poverty and illiteracy at a deeper level. A lot needs to be done to ensure the upholding of human rights of weaker sections of society, against atrocities against dalits and women. The state of health of a democracy has to be judged by the equity and security of minorities. What is the condition of minorities today? It is facing the problems of equity and security, the problems of identity are becoming more dominant in such situations. One compliments the UPA Govt for instituting Sachar Committee. The point is that now it requires topmost priority in its implementation. It be the education amongst poor, poor Muslims, we need to go miles to ensure that education and employment of minorities is looked from the angle of affirmative action, the pseudo criticism of appeasement notwithstanding. The question of security is deeply related to the question of justice. The recent shoe throwing episode demonstrated that the scars of injustice remain; they don’t heal unless justice is done. So many state Governments have failed in their duty as far as punishing the guilty of violence is concerned. In Mumbai, Shrikrishna Commission report has remained on the shelf despite the repeated promise to implement it. In Gujarat one hopes the work of Special Investigation Teams (SIT) brings out the truth and the Central Government musters all the courage at its command, to punish the guilty of the Gujarat carnage, whatever be their threatening and aggressive postures. In Kandhmal also the guilty are roaming with bloated chests while the victims have been feeling scared to return to their villages. An immediate effort to rehabilitate them, by bringing in the rule of law is of paramount importance. In Gujarat also the Modi Government has not bothered to distribute the relief to the riot victims. These riots victims are living painful life bereft of facilities and are ignored by state administration. The central govt has to remind the state government of its constitutional obligations failing which strict action must be taken. Overall a lot needs to be done to ensure that SIT (Special Investigation Team) work goes on smoothly and unlike in previous cases where BJP workers got Zahira Sheikhs testimony changed by giving her money, the witnesses should be given total protection and concrete assurance that Modi Government will not be able to harm them in any way. One also recalls that during the previous UPA rule the National Integration Council met just couple of times. This body needs to be activated as the regular watch dog on the state of affairs related to the National Integration. The nation is looking forward with hope and anticipation that dark period of communal ascendance, the temple mosque issues are put in the pages of history, the place where they belong and as Nehru put it, new temples of learning and job creation are brought to the forefront. The popular perceptions are the base of sectarian violence, which are the base of divisive forces. Lot of misconceptions about minorities, terrorism, conversions has had a field day. The RSS shakhas have been spreading it, their schools are adding on to the problem, and rumor mills are adding to the problem. It is time that a multilayered approach is undertaken to promote the values of amity and harmony which were the core of Indian society as seen in medieval times-Bhakti Sufi traditions- and as seen during the freedom movement when all the communities rubbed shoulders to get freedom from British rule. The new Government has to evolve this basic program to sow the seeds of long term harmony in the society. --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Secularperspective" group. To post to this group, send email to secularperspective at googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to secularperspective+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.co.in/group/secularperspective?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~--- -- http://venukm.blogspot.com/ From mayur.suresh at gmail.com Mon May 25 09:47:14 2009 From: mayur.suresh at gmail.com (Mayur) Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 09:47:14 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Announcing Delhi Queer Pride 2009! In-Reply-To: <4def3c470905240024o5ba42e64wdb9bbea53f24005e@mail.gmail.com> References: <4def3c470905240024o5ba42e64wdb9bbea53f24005e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4def3c470905242117w40a8154dk8283cfbc91630ebb@mail.gmail.com> *Apologies for cross-posting* *****Please forward widely***** *Delhi Queer Pride '09* Announcing the Delhi Queer Pride '09! For the second year running queer people, friends, and allies take this message to the streets! Queer Pride is a celebration. It is about loving who we are, whether lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, hijra or straight, and affirming everyone's right to be respected. *Starts at 5:30pm, Sunday, June 28th, 2009, at the corner of Barakhamba Road and Tolstoy Marg.* We'll gather at the Corner of Barakhamba Road and Tolstoy Marg at 5:00 pm. The Parade commences at 5:30, down Tolstoy Marg to Jantar Mantar, where we will have more celebrating! ******** Delhi Queer Pride is an open forum. Anyone - gay, bisexual, transgender, lesbian or straight can join. Please email *delhiqueerpride at gmail.com *to be part of organising Delhi Queer Pride '09. For more information please visit delhiqueerpride.blogspot.com ******** The Queer Pride is organised by the LGBT community for the LGBT community and allies, and not by any organisations, and we hope that it can continue to be entirely funded by individual donations from queer and queer friendly people from India and elsewhere. To find out how you can donate and contribute to Queer Pride '09, please email *finance.delhipride at gmail.com*. ******* From iram at sarai.net Mon May 25 11:51:27 2009 From: iram at sarai.net (Iram Ghufran) Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 11:51:27 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Tasweer Ghar: Indian elections: how to woo Muslims to vote for you In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A1A38E7.2090504@sarai.net> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: > Indian elections: how to woo Muslims to vote for you > From: > Tasveer Ghar > Date: > Sat, 23 May 2009 18:04:31 +0800 > To: > undisclosed-recipients:; > > To: > undisclosed-recipients:; > > > Indian elections: how to woo Muslims to vote for you > http://tasveerghar.net/cmsdesk/essay/49/index.html > > > Dear friends, > Last week, the Lok Sabha elections of 2009 to select India's central > government finally come to an end, and results were out. Some analysts > have pointed out that the Muslims of north India were one of the > important deciding factors for the success or defeat of the different > parties. If one observed the Urdu newspapers in north India, one could > easily see how different parties and candidates tried to attract the > attention of Muslim voters by engaging them on a number of issues from > development and employment to terrorism and communalism. > > While Congress and its allies have emerged once again to form the > government, one can see how they and the other parties didn't leave > any stone unturned to present a favourable image of themselves, while > painting their opponents as the worst enemies of the Muslims. > Interestingly, many of these advertisements have bylines not of the > main parties they represent. Rather, these have been issued by > hitherto unknown organizations and NGOs of local Muslims, and in some > cases, religious clergy or even the keepers of local Sufi shrines, who > have a great following among the Muslims. While this is not the first > time that Muslim religious leaders have participated in the campaign > for political parties, but they have certainly come out more openly > this time, often using the iconography of their religious authority. > > We present a few examples of such campaign advertisements from some > newspapers published in Delhi in the last few weeks: > > http://tasveerghar.net/cmsdesk/essay/49/index.html > > We would be happy to hear your feedback about the various interesting > image galleries emerging on Tasveer Ghar. > > The Tasveer Ghar Team > > From iram at sarai.net Mon May 25 11:54:50 2009 From: iram at sarai.net (Iram Ghufran) Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 11:54:50 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: PAVILION RESOURCES ROOM CALL FOR CONTRIBUTIONS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A1A39B2.2070209@sarai.net> > Subject: PAVILION RESOURCES ROOM CALL FOR CONTRIBUTIONS From: Pavilion Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 23:43:26 +0300 PAVILION RESOURCES ROOM CALL FOR CONTRIBUTIONS PRR is looking for any contributions in books, magazines, newspapers, catalogues, curatorial and research files, etc. Any donation is welcome and will help to grow the unique resource place in Bucharest. Please send us any files, books etc. to PO Box 26-0390 Bucharest 013191 Romania. Thank you in advance for your contributions! What is PRR? PAVILION RESOURCES ROOM, if we report it to the definition of the archive, it's a non-archive, with no historical and objective references. Created by Razvan Ion and Eugen Radescu (founders of Bucharest Biennale, Pavilion - center for contemporary art & culture, and Pavilion - journal for politics & culture) PRR grows organically helped by the additions and by the research travels. The concept of traveling PRR is not to move out the resources but to making PRR extractions doubling part of the PRR and moving for ever in the new spaces and that will help to be a start for a new PRR which grow based on local needs and context. PRR is equally an inspirational zone as an action one, whitch contains a research and documentation archives of actions/activities and curatorial files whitch generated PAVILION magazine, BUCHAREST BIENNALE and the centre for art and contemporary culture PAVLION UNICREDIT. The content of the room (as a permanent project with in the centre space, and also as an itinerary project) it contains approximately 1000 instruments of research whitch come from different fields of theory. SECTIONS 1. DOCUMENTARY section (documentation of the organization actions organized on a Macmini with images, films, websites, organized with an access interface ). Here you will also find research files organized on topics by the curators which worked with us. 2. INSPIRATIONAL section (books, magazines, catalogues, newspapers, films, video). The magazine section has a range of carefully selected national and international titles for you to read (Grey Room, October, New Left Review, Mute, The Art Newspaper, Artforum, FlashArt, Frieze, Cabinet, A Prior Magazine, Frame Magazine, Man Vogue, Fantastic Man, A10, Le Monde Diplomatique, Butt, Oris, Multitudes, 22, etc.) You will find a unique collection of art, sociology, anthropology, political science, philosophy, exhibitions and biennale catalogues, architecture theory, to read and study. The collection is continually growing and some of the latest additions are: ----- 3. DROP BOX (box where anyone can drop postcards, books, objects etc.) This will be subject of selection. The PAVILION RESOURCE ROOM offers a reference-only facility, thus all available materials must be studied on the premises and cannot be taken out on loan. Access and use is free of charge. Visitors are asked to mention the source when presenting their research. --- PAVILION UNICREDIT center for contemporary art & culture Sos. Nicolae Titulescu 1 (Piata Victoriei) Bucharest 011131 Romania T: + 4 031 103 4131 E: pavilion at pavilionmagazine.org www.pavilionunicredit.ro --- PAVILION UNICREDIT este un centru pentru arta si cultura contemporana, un spatiu independent work-in-progress, spatiu de productie si cercetare a vizualului, a discursivului si a performativului. Este un spatiu al gandirii critice care promoveaza o întelegere implicata socio-politic a artei si a institutiilor culturale. PAVILION UNICREDIT is a center for contemporary art & culture, a work-in-progress independent space, a space for the production and research in the fields of audiovisual, discursive and performative. It is a space of the critical thinking, and it promotes an artistic perspective implying the social and political involvement of the art and of the cultural institutions. --- PAVILION, BUCHAREST BIENNALE and PAVILION UNICREDIT are projects devised and founded by Razvan Ion and Eugen Radescu --- Supported by: Pilsner Urquell Strategic partner: UniCredit Tiriac Bank Media partners: Hotnews.ro, 22, Alternativ.ro, Feeder.ro, 24Fun Production partner: UpDate Advertising Printing partner: Herris Print Audio-visual partner: Sony Collaborating partner: Center for Visual Introspection --- From anivar.aravind at gmail.com Mon May 25 11:51:55 2009 From: anivar.aravind at gmail.com (Anivar Aravind) Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 11:51:55 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Binayak Granted Bail.. Judge says Two years is too much! Message-ID: <35f96d470905242321n2b0707eay7c4d88edcc71286f@mail.gmail.com> http://www.binayaksen.net/2009/05/live-tweet/ Follow Our Live Tweets from Supreme Court Hearing on Binayak’s Bail Plea http://twitter.com/binayaksen # judge did not even want to hear prosecution lawyer! dismissed him in one sentence ‘bail granted’ 4 minutes ago # binayak will be released in raipur today on personal bond. 2 minutes ago # binayak granted bail. judge says two years is too much! please RT 4 minutes ago # bail granted! 2 minutes ago # govt affidavit produces no evidence to prove charges against binayak. their case rests on innuendoes about b’s alleged links to maoists 10 minutes ago # case number 22 on now. ten more to go. 13 minutes ago # trial of binayak in raipur court also resumes today. 14 minutes ago # overall mood among defence lawyers is upbeat but cautious too due to bad experience in the past. 16 minutes ago # a lot of interest among supreme court lawyers also in binayak’s case. 18 minutes ago # case number 13 being heard now. It will take another 20 min to start hearing of binayak’s bail plea 19 minutes ago # justice rajinder sachar is also appearing on behalf of binayak. 21 minutes ago # right now case number 7 is being heard. binayak’s case is number 32 26 minutes ago # once the hearing begins updates will be difficult due to restrictions on mobile phones. 30 minutes ago # lot of media here to cover the case. 44 minutes ago # but the chances are better than ever before. about 1 hour ago # today is the day. it will be bail or no bail. keep all ur fingers crossed! about 1 hour ago # govt affidavit claims binayak likely to abscond if given bail. complains about media campaign and pressure from foreign nationals! about 1 hour ago # c’garh govt arguing against bail saying the trial is almost over! about 1 hour ago # hearing likely around ‘eleven o clock. about 1 hour ago # shanthi bhushan to appear for binayak. soli sorabjee also present as support. about 1 hour ago # c’garh govt finally filed its counter affidavit last night. contents not yet known. about 1 hour ago -- "The resources of the world are for us all to share. Let us affirm our faith in that common cause" - Dr. Ilina Sen From rakesh at sarai.net Mon May 25 12:50:27 2009 From: rakesh at sarai.net (Rakesh Kumar Singh) Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 12:50:27 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Binayak got bail Message-ID: <4A1A46BB.30405@sarai.net> Dear Friends The beloved people doctor, the voice of poor aadivasis, and a prominent human rights activist Dr. Binayak Sen has finally got bail from Supreme court this morning. Cheers rakesh From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Mon May 25 13:37:26 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 13:37:26 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Binayak got bail In-Reply-To: <4A1A46BB.30405@sarai.net> References: <4A1A46BB.30405@sarai.net> Message-ID: Dear Rakesh and all Huge cheers indeed for the man who fought strongly against injustice meted out to him for the past 2 years. It's a blot on our society, our democracy and our state that a man without any proof against him and not even having harmed a single soul was kept in prison for 2 years. The CM of Chhatisgarh should apologize for the same immediately if he has any conscience. So also the rest of the administration. As for the decision, it was quite late and the SC and the judiciary also deserve the blame for this, though the first culprit is the Chhatisgarh police and the administration there. Regards Rakesh From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Mon May 25 16:52:04 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 12:22:04 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Indian elections: how to woo Muslims to vote for you In-Reply-To: <484c1050905230645h3e584b25t55c22f3c884d0682@mail.gmail.com> References: <484c1050905230304i48bdd7a9nb2ac9b5107c93f97@mail.gmail.com> <484c1050905230645h3e584b25t55c22f3c884d0682@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <65be9bf40905250422v59d20fa2s929fd5869962e55c@mail.gmail.com> If we assume that the elections posters were intended to appeal to Muslims of North India, then a survey of posters throws up some questions- 1. Do all Muslims of North India know how to read Urdu? If no, then- 2. Why do political parties equate Muslims=Urdu speaking? 3. Do all Muslims of North India always think of Gujarat as an assault on their collective religious identity all the time, especially when they are about to vote? 4. Just like in earlier times, Imam Bukhari's fatwa to vote for erstwhile Janta dal was assumed to be the ultimate clarion call to North Indian Muslims, this time too, it appears, as if, the stereotype of Indian voters who happen to follow Islam, robs them from any agency to think and act on their own. I wonder why is an appeal from authority is such a big deal in political communication? 5. I wonder if posters issued by political parties to appeal to followers of other religions like Sikhism, Jainism, Buddhism or those Indian voters who constitute a strategic vote bank follow a similar trend? Regards Taha From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Mon May 25 20:27:40 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 20:27:40 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] ads popularity and censorship! Message-ID: <978996.80481.qm@web94702.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Just recovered from some vest ad showing off masculinity in an undesired manner. Understandably it is machoist a flavour of anti-feminism in it showing how a vest helps a man dominate all females. But what I deciphered from it was  glorification of gender abuse and eve-teasing. And if one goes by thead maker then females find such men Hot! Gone are the days when innocent Macho ad, kitna bada toil hain and Liril got censored because of implicit gestures. Enter an era of sex eductaion and open ness in comunication unbarred. But limits are never set nor verifyable and Vulgarity becomes the new code. Hopefully in the abscence of a cultured viewer tribe the latter or overstreching is more resorted to not only by ad makers but at times by soap makers( suddenly the depiction of sex-violence became quite a fashion for a number of days in hindi soaps raising my doubt as to their 'social' and 'commercial' relevance. What a sophisticated form of avoiding the 'A' cerificate. Less than two years ago and some less popular channels regularly do this as a cheap publicity stunt-- Sell Sex, flash women, whereever, whether partying or bathing in prison! The main hurdle is the people of India who do not have any problem with this, as long as their daily quota of entertainment is fullfilled. Yes Mihir should not die in Kyunki Saans bhi kabhi Bahu thi. . . . . . Passive viewing is potent, it has sub-limial effects. Then why not tag ads with an A channel. Gone are the days when Ice-creams used to be made for the children. Now the buyer and his/her desires are the cynosure of these companies, which target couples for commercial success with sone ads mature enough to scare children. Visual enjoyment of sex is not the only thing appriciating is more important, the way western culture is popularly equated with sex, some of the rather pious personalities would seem something else. Result, a tendency to mistake intentions, body language and so on. Worst thing, such sentiliating ads are, if I go by standard marketing texts a commercial flop.. A good add never draws attention to itself but towards the product in a manner to fullfill it's objectives and build brand value. Then why is creativity going below the belt? Practical lessons ok! BUT why spread false messages and ignore the responsibility of art on culture. Indeed the line between open and vulgar is as thin as that between errotica and pornography.. When Priyaranjan Das Munshi proposed a bill to censor things there was a hue cry about state doctored culture, Unethical policing in artistic expression and curbing freedom of speech. Beurocratic raaj was cited. The truth isPrivate houses never like government interventon and fairness of actions or accountability in social responsibility though this society functions to provide them a working culture, and is their source of arms, bread and butter. Clearly these houses have failed in self censorship. Some people at that time also favoured Ombudsman. Their ambitions was squashed then. I am talking of right to peaceful living and right to frame intellectual independance, not infantisising women and children.  I again forward the same question. Does contemporary Indian media require Censorship? As far as content regulation is concerned practically we'll se none as the media is already intellectually biased towards interests of these business houses who glorify in these wasteful ads, and politicalluy favours western and beurgeoise ideas, behind which the Government too goes mad. What might protected is a tradition of evening family TV viewing. I do not see feudal clases bothered about what is shown on TV. That is never documented as being small things. At the end the vest company will not take political responsibility it is outside it's brand image. Then why cheap popularity. I remember the infamous COKE AD in US spreading it's own theory of pepsi favouring Blind to deaf. Now what a inhumane thing to cash upon. Indivoduals shall not use discretiona nor is it desirable that they go on a rampage. Why does then the Government not intervene? Is it Deliberate? OK found this as bit bad joke ad on net, which I serve with evening snacks(joking, it's likeable). Crocodile's tears, but will be liked by many. I find some Creativity that I do not in many other ads. Will open up a series of banned commercials. YOutube, non-adult content. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrRyRi1HNmI&feature=related. Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with Yahoo! India Travel http://in.travel.yahoo.com/ From akmalik45 at yahoo.com Tue May 26 00:48:10 2009 From: akmalik45 at yahoo.com (A.K. Malik) Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 12:18:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Dera man killed in Vienna Message-ID: <239276.33769.qm@web39108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi All, News item: New Delhi, May 25 (PTI) Train services in North India were badly affected today because of the violence in Punjab as more than 30 trains to and from the state were cancelled and over 10 others regulated mid-way. Over 14 trains were also left stranded midway at several stations in the state as protestors squatted on rail tracks. "Railways provided them shelter at the local gurudwaras and nearby railway colonies while the Northern Railways' Women's Welfare Organisation came up with free food for the stranded passengers," a Northern Railway spokesperson told PTI. He said the violence that broke out after the killing of a Dera leader in Vienna also led to large scale damage to Railway properties. More than 10 coaches of Himsagar Express were torched near Jalandhar and a locomotive was damaged by a mob. Though real estimate was not available, Railway sources said properties worth crores were destroyed in the violence. Train services continued to remain paralysed till last reports came in. The cancelled trains include the New Delhi-Amritsar Shatabdi Express and New Delhi-Jammu Tawi Rajdhani Express. PTI. NO "SECULARIST" will ever speak on this, because the perpetrators are not HINDUS ???? (A.K.MALIK) From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Tue May 26 07:17:46 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 02:47:46 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Dera man killed in Vienna In-Reply-To: <239276.33769.qm@web39108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <239276.33769.qm@web39108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <65be9bf40905251847o8647763q9c71715d07ff80c@mail.gmail.com> Sikh leaders get into a dispute in Vienna which results in violence. Some Sikhs of India respond too. But why burn State property like Trains? What has State got to do with it? From rana at ranadasgupta.com Tue May 26 08:36:39 2009 From: rana at ranadasgupta.com (Rana Dasgupta) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 08:36:39 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] India's new ruling caste Message-ID: <4A1B5CBF.5010503@ranadasgupta.com> India's new ruling caste Most ministers in the ruling alliance will be unfit to hold office because family connections are more important than ability http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/may/25/india-new-ruling-caste Appu K Soman The largest election in history, involving more than 700 million voters, has resulted in the victory of India's ruling alliance, led by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh of the Indian National Congress. The verdict disproved gloomy predictions of a hung parliament and the further strengthening of regional parties. The new government will be far more stable than many of its predecessors, so the election results have elicited profound relief. But the fact remains that, like previous governments, the new administration will consist mostly of politicians unfit to hold ministerial office. While several provincial satraps have been cut down to size, new, aspiring ones have garnered significant support. Despite the manifest success of Indian democracy, its parliamentary system is not succeeding in giving India good governance. Obviously, India is not a failed state. Lant Pritchett of the Harvard Kennedy School has coined a new term for India: a "flailing state" – where the government's extremely competent upper echelons are unable to control its inefficient lower levels, resulting in poor performance. But this analysis gives credit where none is due: India's problem is its top political leadership's lack of competence. The inability of India's current political system to provide effective government places the country in a different category: a non-performing state. The idealism of India's freedom movement quickly evaporated after independence in the face of the opportunities for patronage that came with power. The way India's political system evolved has made politics the surest path to wealth. The money spent to win elections (often including the purchase of a party's nomination) is recouped many times over once the winner is in office. Half of India's legislators who stood for re-election this time around had tripled their assets in the last five years. Increasing corruption within governments run by the Congress party, which led India to independence and monopolised political power for decades, showed what a lucrative career politics had become. Given India's religious, caste, and linguistic divides, politicians saw how easily they could leverage even a small following into votes. Soon, Indian political parties began to break up, giving rise to a large number of regional and caste-based parties. Most of these parties are led by political dynasties that prize loyalty over merit. Because of the splintering of political parties, India has had only one single-party government and eight coalition governments in the last two decades. Members of the coalition governments have treated the ministries allocated to them as fiefdoms, to be milked for their benefit. Over time, India's government has become primarily a tool for advancing the personal interests of politicians rather than the entity responsible for running the country. The opportunity for personal gains through public office has made electoral politics an automatic career choice for Indian politicians' progeny. Record numbers of sons and daughters of political leaders and millionaires (and people with criminal backgrounds) contested this election. We are seeing the formation of a new Indian caste – a caste of rulers different from India's traditional Kshatriya caste – before our very eyes. Like existing castes, the new caste specialises in one occupation: political office. Just as someone became a carpenter or a trader in an earlier era merely through birth, members of India's ruling caste now become leaders of parties, members of legislatures, and cabinet ministers solely because of their parentage. And, as with the older castes, there is no need for any qualification for the vocation; birth alone is sufficient. Lack of vocational competence never barred Indians from remaining in their caste, and how well one performs in political office is, likewise, not a criterion for politicians to continue in positions of power. India's parliamentary system requires ministers to be members of the legislature. Party leaders select family members and other loyal followers as candidates for elections, with absolutely no consideration of their abilities to fulfil ministerial responsibilities, resulting in cabinets that are simply not capable of managing the problems confronting the country's national and state governments. Even with the best political leadership, governing India is no easy task. Successive governments staffed with unqualified politicians have failed dismally to carry out the core governmental functions of maintaining law and order, providing the basic services expected of modern societies, and promoting economic growth. India's high-performing private sector has so far masked the failure of the Indian state. In its current form, India's parliamentary system can produce only non-performing, corrupt governments. It rewards ambition, promotes office-at-any-cost politics, and devalues merit. Taking away the prize of ministerial office from elected representatives might discourage wealth-maximising politicians from entering politics. It is time, therefore, for India to consider introducing a presidential system of government, which would reduce the scope for "horse trading" and allow the country's leader to select competent people for cabinet positions. Appu Soman is a fellow of the Belfer Center for Science and International Affairs at the Harvard Kennedy School of Government, Harvard University. From aliens at dataone.in Tue May 26 11:41:55 2009 From: aliens at dataone.in (bipin) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 11:41:55 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Dera man killed in Vienna References: <239276.33769.qm@web39108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <007201c9ddc8$dfbdded0$0201a8c0@limo> Dear Malik, Yes, you are right, our pseudo-secularist influenced society will not speak. As even they have not speak in case of Karunanidhi, who is openly supporting Prabhakaran, the terrorist in the eye of Sri Lanka and India also. Sri Lanka has never harassed innocent tamil civilians staying in their country, but opposed unjustified demand of LTTE for separate state. This is also anti-secular stand only by Karunanidhi. Even Nandigram and Singur also state sponsored violence only but pseudo-secularist influence society never highlight it since it was the act of one of the most so called secularist communist party. However, public taught the lesson by reducing their seats sizably in this election. If it would have done by BJP, all these have come front in media to highlight it, created stories to exaggerate it. Communist since years allowed Bangladeshi infiltration, this is also one kind of anti secular stand but so called human right activists, NGO will never speak on this. thanks Bipin ----- Original Message ----- From: "A.K. Malik" To: "Sarai List" Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 12:48 AM Subject: [Reader-list] Dera man killed in Vienna > > Hi All, > News item: > New Delhi, May 25 (PTI) Train services in North India were badly affected > today because of the violence in Punjab as more than 30 trains to and from > the state were cancelled and over 10 others regulated mid-way. Over 14 > trains were also left stranded midway at several stations in the state as > protestors squatted on rail tracks. > > "Railways provided them shelter at the local gurudwaras and nearby railway > colonies while the Northern Railways' Women's Welfare Organisation came up > with free food for the stranded passengers," a Northern Railway > spokesperson told PTI. He said the violence that broke out after the > killing of a Dera leader in Vienna also led to large scale damage to > Railway properties. More than 10 coaches of Himsagar Express were torched > near Jalandhar and a locomotive was damaged by a mob. > > Though real estimate was not available, Railway sources said properties > worth crores were destroyed in the violence. Train services continued to > remain paralysed till last reports came in. > > The cancelled trains include the New Delhi-Amritsar Shatabdi Express and > New Delhi-Jammu Tawi Rajdhani Express. PTI. > > NO "SECULARIST" will ever speak on this, because the perpetrators are not > HINDUS ???? > (A.K.MALIK) > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From ambarien at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 26 11:57:16 2009 From: ambarien at yahoo.co.uk (ambarien qadar) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 06:27:16 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] Surbhi needs help Message-ID: <319317.98857.qm@web24102.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Dear all, This is about my friend Surbhi Dewan who is currently pursuing MFA, Film from The Rochester Institute of Technology, Rochester, New York, USA. Currently in India for the production of her thesis film, Surbhi is looking for production/ post-production work June onwards. She would prefer being based out of Delhi and has a couple of months at hand. Surbhi is open to most options-assisting, working for somebody, taking on responsibility for a project and completing it...or actually anything that comes her way in the time she has. Apart from her immediate training, Surbhi has been a Teaching Assistant at Documentary Workshop in Dubrovnik, Croatia with Professor Cathleen Ashworth  and at Moving Media I, School of Photography Arts with Professor Patti Ambrogi. She has worked at Film Equipment Cage, School of Film and Animation and  has a Graduate Assistant with Howard Lester, Director of Graduate Program at School of Film and Animation. Her filmography includes credits of  director/cinematographer/editor for Time Will Tell; A short experimental documentary exploring the experience of international students in America through personal stories, poetry and animation and Life Choice;  A short documentary about the lives of three women who volunteer at an “abortion-counseling” center in Rochester. She can also handle advance level work on the Final Cut Pro Studio, After Effects CS4 and Photoshop CS4. I am putting in these details so that you can get a sense of the nature of work she can handle. Please do get in touch incase you need to look at her detailed CV. Am not mailing it as an attachment for considerations of file size. Surbhi's mail ID is sxd1865 at rit.edu It shall be great if you could help/suggest something. Cheers Ambarien Al Qadar -- Ambarien Al Qadar From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Tue May 26 12:14:26 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 07:44:26 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] India's new ruling caste In-Reply-To: <4A1B5CBF.5010503@ranadasgupta.com> References: <4A1B5CBF.5010503@ranadasgupta.com> Message-ID: <65be9bf40905252344q6c650743r9f7d345ccb2426@mail.gmail.com> Dear Rana, Thanks for the post. I read it and thanked god for giving us such pearls of wisdom through Appu jee- imagine for a second, that by 2019, good sense prevails and we did opt for presidential style elections. We will have a federal structure in place and then imagine somehow, that President Modi is able to win over a mere contender called President Rahul. So!! what could we have as a possibility - Praveen Swami as NSA, C Raja Mohan as Sec of State , Mohan Bhagwat of the RSS as capable Sec. of Interior, APJ as Sec of Science and Technology, Gurumurthy as Sec. of Finance, Praveen Togadia as Sec. of Defense, Jaitely as Sec of Information and Broadcasting and Pramod Muttalik as Sec of Culture. I am sure it is high time we pay heed to the likes of Appu Jee by 'allowing the country's leader to select competent people for cabinet positions' then and only then can India's cherished dreams could be realized. Regards or should I say Amen?? Taha PS: Whose agenda is he following by the way??? We have just had a bizzare election where an old man tried to lift weights, write blogs, invite people for TV debates, wrote book and hopped around on a chopper and spoke at length about what old people talk anyways like getting weak at the center and so on and yet lost the bloody election. And then we have Appu Jee telling us that no no no no....this is what we need...arre bhai Why??? Thik hai why not. Point taken but why any ways??? From rana at ranadasgupta.com Tue May 26 12:47:32 2009 From: rana at ranadasgupta.com (Rana Dasgupta) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 12:47:32 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] India's new ruling caste In-Reply-To: <65be9bf40905252344q6c650743r9f7d345ccb2426@mail.gmail.com> References: <4A1B5CBF.5010503@ranadasgupta.com> <65be9bf40905252344q6c650743r9f7d345ccb2426@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A1B978C.7030301@ranadasgupta.com> actually I was even more flumoxed by this: > Lant Pritchett of the Harvard > Kennedy School has coined a new term for India: a "flailing state" – > where the government's extremely competent upper echelons are unable > to control its inefficient lower levels, resulting in poor > performance. Soman is fighting internecine battle against this position of course, and his own vision is too much bathed in the rosy light of post-Obama election glow. but is Pritchett's position not astonishing? Taha Mehmood wrote: > Dear Rana, > > Thanks for the post. I read it and thanked god for giving us such > pearls of wisdom through Appu jee- imagine for a second, that by > 2019, good sense prevails and we did opt for presidential style > elections. We will have a federal structure in place and then imagine > somehow, that President Modi is able to win over a mere contender > called President Rahul. So!! what could we have as a possibility - > Praveen Swami as NSA, C Raja Mohan as Sec of State , Mohan Bhagwat of > the RSS as capable Sec. of Interior, APJ as Sec of Science and > Technology, Gurumurthy as Sec. of Finance, Praveen Togadia as Sec. of > Defense, Jaitely as Sec of Information and Broadcasting and Pramod > Muttalik as Sec of Culture. I am sure it is high time we pay heed to > the likes of Appu Jee by 'allowing the country's leader to select > competent people for cabinet positions' then and only then can India's > cherished dreams could be realized. > > Regards or should I say Amen?? > > Taha > > PS: Whose agenda is he following by the way??? We have just had a > bizzare election where an old man tried to lift weights, write blogs, > invite people for TV debates, wrote book and hopped around on a > chopper and spoke at length about what old people talk anyways like > getting weak at the center and so on and yet lost the bloody election. > And then we have Appu Jee telling us that no no no no....this is what > we need...arre bhai Why??? Thik hai why not. Point taken but why any > ways??? > > -- "I'm an ex-citizen of nowhere. And sometimes I get mighty homesick." Rana Dasgupta www.ranadasgupta.com From ysaeed7 at yahoo.com Tue May 26 13:06:15 2009 From: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com (Yousuf) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 00:36:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Indian elections: how to woo Muslims to vote for you Message-ID: <11041.40795.qm@web51411.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear Taha, Kshmendra and others Thanks for your comments and questions. This image gallery is really a work-in-progress, and its a tip of the iceberg from what one notices in Urdu press. I have been surveying Urdu newspaper off-and-on and I was surprised to see the quantity and diversity of the election posters. Here are some random comments on your questions: First of all, this survey is limited to only a handful of Urdu newspapers published from Delhi and UP which cater to some districts of western UP (the region that had the fiercest competition between Mulayam, Mayawati, Congress, BJP). The reach and impact of those papers is yet to be studied, since many of them are temporary publications. I also haven't looked in detail at the Hindi newspapers or the local TV shows (or local graffiti, wall posters) to make a comparison. But the use of Urdu newspapers in this manner does reveal a lot about how they become a via media to cater to a community. Maybe all Muslims in Delhi/UP don't read Urdu, but the news certainly trickles down through these papers. The tone of the ads by all 4 parties sounds like a fish market where each candidate is showing how he/she is better for the Muslims and how the other party has always ditched the community. Yes the use of religious leaders/clergy (for canvassing) is still an effective tool - mainly because the imams and pir sahebs (from Sufi shrines) do hold an authority over large sections of local population, probably due to a lack of effective political leader in the community. But it is no longer a situation where only one big leader (like the imam Bukhari could hold his sway nationwide). And this may not be a new phenomena - there is a long history of the political impact of religious clergy on the community. But what is worth studying (and also disturbing) is how these ads for Muslims seldom talk about nation-building or nationhood (which you see in the mainstream BJP ads), but only restrict Muslims to their immediate concerns of Babri and Gujarat etc. Babri mosque and Gujarat pogrom are used ferociously by all parties (except BJP) to woo Muslims in these ads, but I am not sure if the readers/voters are so stupid that they can't see the ludicrousness of how two or more ads on the same newspaper page are using the same agenda to hit at the other party/candidate. Its funny how the newspaper could even sell the adjacent ad space to 3 different parties who are attacking each other. I haven't come across any example so far of "appeasing" of other communities this way by all parties - although the BJP did use it in a reverse way to attack the Congress in the earlier Delhi elections, by listing out its various evils including the "mushrooming of Batla Houses" in Delhi, if you remember that ad. More later probably. Yousuf --- On Mon, 5/25/09, Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> wrote: > From: Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian elections: how to woo Muslims to vote for you > To: "Tasveer Ghar" > Cc: "Sarai reader list" > Date: Monday, May 25, 2009, 4:52 PM > If we assume that the elections > posters were intended to appeal to > Muslims of North India, then a survey of posters throws up > some > questions- > > 1. Do all Muslims of North India know how to read Urdu? If > no, then- > 2. Why do political parties equate Muslims=Urdu speaking? > 3. Do all Muslims of North India always think of Gujarat as > an assault > on their collective religious identity all the time, > especially when > they are about to vote? > 4. Just like in earlier times, Imam Bukhari's fatwa to vote > for > erstwhile Janta dal was assumed to be the ultimate clarion > call to > North Indian Muslims, this time too, it appears, as if, the > stereotype > of Indian voters who happen to follow Islam, robs them from > any agency > to think and act on their own. I wonder why is an appeal > from > authority is such a big deal in political communication? > 5. I wonder if posters issued by political parties to > appeal to > followers of other religions like Sikhism, Jainism, > Buddhism or those > Indian voters who constitute a strategic vote bank follow a > similar > trend? > > Regards > > Taha > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com Tue May 26 13:20:39 2009 From: rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com (Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 13:20:39 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Indian elections: how to woo Muslims to vote for you In-Reply-To: <65be9bf40905250422v59d20fa2s929fd5869962e55c@mail.gmail.com> References: <484c1050905230304i48bdd7a9nb2ac9b5107c93f97@mail.gmail.com> <484c1050905230645h3e584b25t55c22f3c884d0682@mail.gmail.com> <65be9bf40905250422v59d20fa2s929fd5869962e55c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7271ec560905260050y477b0edbqb6d864f2b41142ab@mail.gmail.com> Dear Taha, did you miss the news item about the NIC that this special project on "experimental basis" will be starting from Karnataka state, in two districts , one in north Karnataka and other in south Karnataka.? This news appeared in DNA and Times of India, please note. Karnataka has the unique distiction of having voters , about 3.7 crores, out of estimated population of about 5.67 crores, and according to election commisssion, EPIC are facilitated most "successfully" to 90 percent of the voters. ! But at the time of elections just in three constituencies of bangalore, north, south and Central, more than 3 lakh voters had to use other forms of ids, like driving license, pssport, etc( in all 21 items of positive identification.)and in each constituency the total voters were about 12 lakhs, of which 57 percent voted.One of the reasons was the faulty lists of the booth allottment, non-inclusion in the list with photos from the old list, and worst, spelling and gender mentioned wrongly in the list as well as voter id cards.! Tenders for this job is under finalisation and this is a multi crore project , efforts to get details are being stone walled even under RTI.! Regards, Rajen. On Mon, May 25, 2009 at 4:52 PM, Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com>wrote: > If we assume that the elections posters were intended to appeal to > Muslims of North India, then a survey of posters throws up some > questions- > > 1. Do all Muslims of North India know how to read Urdu? If no, then- > 2. Why do political parties equate Muslims=Urdu speaking? > 3. Do all Muslims of North India always think of Gujarat as an assault > on their collective religious identity all the time, especially when > they are about to vote? > 4. Just like in earlier times, Imam Bukhari's fatwa to vote for > erstwhile Janta dal was assumed to be the ultimate clarion call to > North Indian Muslims, this time too, it appears, as if, the stereotype > of Indian voters who happen to follow Islam, robs them from any agency > to think and act on their own. I wonder why is an appeal from > authority is such a big deal in political communication? > 5. I wonder if posters issued by political parties to appeal to > followers of other religions like Sikhism, Jainism, Buddhism or those > Indian voters who constitute a strategic vote bank follow a similar > trend? > > Regards > > Taha > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- Rajen. From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Tue May 26 18:16:29 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 18:16:29 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Jai Ho LAllu JI Message-ID: <277836.76272.qm@web94705.mail.in2.yahoo.com> India is a strange place here we subsidise aeroplanes and industrial imports by taking foriegn grants. And willingly depreciate Trains and agrarian output. But lallu did some nice things too except a six hundred rupee train which definately reduced the pressure on Rajdhanis and other trains? Mamata follows. In a break from tradition, Mamata Banerjee today took over as Railway Minister here instead of in Delhi and announced special monthly passes at Rs 20 for those with monthly income below Rs 500, besides a new train for West Bengal. "For the poor, we are announcing special monthly railway passes. The Railways wants to give them the economic freedom to travel by rail, especially those in the unorganised sector who have to come every day from their villages to the city," Banerjee said at the Eastern Railway headquarters here. The passes, costing Rs 20 and for a distance of 100 km, will be provided to those with monthly income less than Rs 500 and a special identity card will be issued to them, she said. The technicalities of issuing the passes will be worked out by the Railways, Banerjee said. Banerjee also announced introduction of the Howrah-Digha Kandari Express on the occasion of the birth anniversary of rebel poet Kazi Nazrul Islam. The express will run seven days a week. "My taking charge from Bengal does not mean that my work will be limited to Bengal only. There is a natural disaster here and I can't leave the people," she said referring to cyclone Aila which hit West Bengal yesterday. Mamata, who was slated to assume office in Delhitoday, decided to stay back saying she had to help people affected by the cyclone. Respectable indeed, given ceratin clauses. Why are railway conditions depriciated? Why is quality of food berth space etc reducing? Why are number of trains not increasing. Give concessions to give a livelihood is nice. For other needs better, I hope it is unconditionsl. Why is it that people have to go to cities from villages to get a livelihood. There is no other way for the people and it is welcome, but for the better informed, I'd like to verify one thing. IS she playing the trump card of regional politics to strengthen her votebank. Riddiculous it would be. Then it is all on air and I do not know! ed Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter http://beta.cricket.yahoo.com From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Tue May 26 18:24:58 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 05:54:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] India's new ruling caste Message-ID: <958970.89368.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Rana   I found Appu K Soman's article juvenile in it's understanding of and commentary on India. He has made moronic generalisations.   Attention being brought to it in the Appu K Soman piece, Lant Pritchett's "Is India a Flailing State - Detours on the Four Lane Highway to Modernisation" seems to be a very interesting and well thought out essay. http://ksghome.harvard.edu/~lpritch/Papers/Is%20India%20a%20Flailing%20State_v1.pdf   I would say that within the parameters laid out by Lant Pritchett, "India is a Flailing State" is an apt description. It is, in my opinion an extremely good essay on today's India, notwithstanding disagreements one might have with some comments and deductions.    Appu Soman's usage of 'upper echelons' is an incomplete understanding of what Lant has written:   """"""   India is today a flailing state---a nation-state in which the head, that is the elite institutions at the national (and in some states) level remain sound and functional but that this head is no longer reliably connected via nerves and sinews to its own limbs. In many parts of India in many sectors, the everyday actions of the field level agents of the state—policemen, engineers, teachers, health workers—are increasingly beyond the control of the administration at the national or state level. """"""""   Lant describes the state of affairs in India through these lines:   """""""   Suppose a development expert from a modern, well-governed country, of today, say Norway, were told he was traveling to a foreign country but really transported in a time machine to Chicago in 1929. He would find a booming economy, but corrupt politics, huge social tensions across races and ethnicities, vast economic inequalities, barely functional municipal services, unplanned and unregulated expansion of the city in all directions as it was crowded with immigrants from rural areas and from other nations. What is his forecast? Should he be optimistic or pessimistic? What is his prescription? Where does one start with “reform” when everything seems out of control? From the hindsight of history, he should be optimistic, Chicago, while far from being Norway, is a rich, vibrant, and functional city. """""""""   Lant concludes (on India in comparison to China) with these words:   """""""""""""" India was born and has always lived in a democratic tradition, but has increasing weakness in the adoption of administrative modernism to its society and politics. To paraphrase Abraham Lincoln via Naresh Saxena no government can long survive half democratic and half corrupt. India, with its multitude of reform efforts is struggling on the path to reforms that lead to the effective implementation of rules, but they are far from out of the woods.   What this produces is a combination of different uncertainties at different horizons. In India, one is uncertain about the near future (and even, for that matter, about what is really happening in the present). But, as India’s formal political and administrative institutions are roughly those of many advanced nations, one can imagine India 50 years in the future without having had any major institutional shifts but having made a long hard steady slog to prosperity and governmental efficacy so long-run uncertainty is less. """"""""""""""   Kshmendra   --- On Tue, 5/26/09, Rana Dasgupta wrote: From: Rana Dasgupta Subject: Re: [Reader-list] India's new ruling caste To: "Taha Mehmood" <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> Cc: "Sarai Reader-list" Date: Tuesday, May 26, 2009, 12:47 PM actually I was even more flumoxed by this: > Lant Pritchett of the Harvard > Kennedy School has coined a new term for India: a "flailing state" – > where the government's extremely competent upper echelons are unable > to control its inefficient lower levels, resulting in poor > performance. Soman is fighting internecine battle against this position of course, and his own vision is too much bathed in the rosy light of post-Obama election glow.  but is Pritchett's position not astonishing? Taha Mehmood wrote: > Dear Rana, > > Thanks for the post. I read it and thanked god for giving us such > pearls of wisdom  through Appu jee- imagine for a second, that  by > 2019, good sense prevails and we did opt for presidential style > elections. We will have a federal structure in place and then imagine > somehow, that President Modi is able to win over a mere contender > called President Rahul. So!! what could we have as a possibility - > Praveen Swami as NSA, C Raja Mohan as Sec of State , Mohan Bhagwat of > the RSS as capable Sec. of Interior, APJ as Sec of Science and > Technology, Gurumurthy as Sec. of Finance, Praveen Togadia as Sec. of > Defense, Jaitely as Sec of Information and Broadcasting and Pramod > Muttalik as Sec of Culture. I am sure it is high time we pay heed to > the likes of Appu Jee by 'allowing the country's leader to select > competent people for cabinet positions' then and only then can India's > cherished dreams could be realized. > > Regards or should I say Amen?? > > Taha > > PS: Whose agenda is he following by the way??? We have just had a > bizzare election where an old man tried to lift weights, write blogs, > invite people for TV debates, wrote book and hopped around on a > chopper and spoke at length about what old people talk anyways like > getting weak at the center and so on and yet lost the bloody election. > And then we have Appu Jee telling us that no no no no....this is what > we need...arre bhai Why??? Thik hai why not. Point taken but why any > ways??? > > -- "I'm an ex-citizen of nowhere. And sometimes I get mighty homesick." Rana Dasgupta www.ranadasgupta.com _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Tue May 26 19:15:18 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 06:45:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Indian elections: how to woo Muslims to vote for you Message-ID: <220920.65796.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Yousuf   It should not be surprising that political parties aggresively woo and try to appease Muslims at the time of elections.   For various reasons, the "Collective Muslim Identity" is one which is furthered by Muslims themselves. If Muslims set themselves apart as a group then they will be wooed as a group in a manner that the suitors think will best engage their attention and favour (example Babri and Gujarat).   It is quite likely that given the contours of 1947- partition, special attention needed to be paid to Muslims so as to reassure them of their rightful and equal space in a Secular India. This might have led to the creation of  the first Political Ghettos of Muslims. These getting solidified has both social and political reasons and perhaps even compulsions.   When you or anyone else talks about "lack of effective political leader in the community", you automatically are subscribing to and feeding the political ghettoisation of Muslims.   This is not unique to Muslims, the same is done to and done by other 'groups' based on religion, caste etc.   The caste based politics amongst Hindus is notorious enough but even the Sikhs have succumbed to it.   Posters are unlikely to reflect it but, on the ground, even amongst the Muslims sub-groups are identified and wooed depending (for example) if the Shias are voters in greater numbers or Sunnis.   In the case of Muslims however, perhaps due to the most prominent 'other' political contender being the BJP, appealing to 'All Muslims' is the easy path to take for presenting a political party as a 'saviour of Muslims'.   Kshmendra     --- On Tue, 5/26/09, Yousuf wrote: From: Yousuf Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian elections: how to woo Muslims to vote for you To: "Tasveer Ghar" , "Taha Mehmood" <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> Cc: "Sarai reader list" , "Tasveer Ghar group" Date: Tuesday, May 26, 2009, 1:06 PM Dear Taha, Kshmendra and others Thanks for your comments and questions. This image gallery is really a work-in-progress, and its a tip of the iceberg from what one notices in Urdu press. I have been surveying Urdu newspaper off-and-on and I was surprised to see the quantity and diversity of the election posters. Here are some random comments on your questions: First of all, this survey is limited to only a handful of Urdu newspapers published from Delhi and UP which cater to some districts of western UP (the region that had the fiercest competition between Mulayam, Mayawati, Congress, BJP). The reach and impact of those papers is yet to be studied, since many of them are temporary publications. I also haven't looked in detail at the Hindi newspapers or the local TV shows (or local graffiti, wall posters) to make a comparison. But the use of Urdu newspapers in this manner does reveal a lot about how they become a via media to cater to a community. Maybe all Muslims in Delhi/UP don't read Urdu, but the news certainly trickles down through these papers. The tone of the ads by all 4 parties sounds like a fish market where each candidate is showing how he/she is better for the Muslims and how the other party has always ditched the community. Yes the use of religious leaders/clergy (for canvassing) is still an effective tool - mainly because the imams and pir sahebs (from Sufi shrines) do hold an authority over large sections of local population, probably due to a lack of effective political leader in the community. But it is no longer a situation where only one big leader (like the imam Bukhari could hold his sway nationwide). And this may not be a new phenomena - there is a long history of the political impact of religious clergy on the community. But what is worth studying (and also disturbing) is how these ads for Muslims seldom talk about nation-building or nationhood (which you see in the mainstream BJP ads), but only restrict Muslims to their immediate concerns of Babri and Gujarat etc. Babri mosque and Gujarat pogrom are used ferociously by all parties (except BJP) to woo Muslims in these ads, but I am not sure if the readers/voters are so stupid that they can't see the ludicrousness of how two or more ads on the same newspaper page are using the same agenda to hit at the other party/candidate. Its funny how the newspaper could even sell the adjacent ad space to 3 different parties who are attacking each other. I haven't come across any example so far of "appeasing" of other communities this way by all parties - although the BJP did use it in a reverse way to attack the Congress in the earlier Delhi elections, by listing out its various evils including the "mushrooming of Batla Houses" in Delhi, if you remember that ad. More later probably. Yousuf --- On Mon, 5/25/09, Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> wrote: > From: Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian elections: how to woo Muslims to vote for you > To: "Tasveer Ghar" > Cc: "Sarai reader list" > Date: Monday, May 25, 2009, 4:52 PM > If we assume that the elections > posters were intended to appeal to > Muslims of North India, then a survey of posters throws up > some > questions- > > 1. Do all Muslims of North India know how to read Urdu? If > no, then- > 2. Why do political parties equate Muslims=Urdu speaking? > 3. Do all Muslims of North India always think of Gujarat as > an assault > on their collective religious identity all the time, > especially when > they are about to vote? > 4. Just like in earlier times, Imam Bukhari's fatwa to vote > for > erstwhile Janta dal was assumed to be the ultimate clarion > call to > North Indian Muslims, this time too, it appears, as if, the > stereotype > of Indian voters who happen to follow Islam, robs them from > any agency > to think and act on their own. I wonder why is an appeal > from > authority is such a big deal in political communication? > 5. I wonder if posters issued by political parties to > appeal to > followers of other religions like Sikhism, Jainism, > Buddhism or those > Indian voters who constitute a strategic vote bank follow a > similar > trend? > > Regards > > Taha > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>       _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Tue May 26 20:34:15 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 20:34:15 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Jai Ho LAllu JI In-Reply-To: <277836.76272.qm@web94705.mail.in2.yahoo.com> References: <277836.76272.qm@web94705.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear all This simply is going out of hand. Everybody is attacking vote bank politics without understanding it at all. And everybody seems to be against it. Therefore I wish to ask two questions which are important here: 1) Name one democratic country where not a single person votes on the basis of votebank politics. Please do mention the proof if possible. 2) Equally, is there any proof of the fact that in India, any group, be it Hindus, Muslims, Dalits or any other community actually gives vote on the basis of vote bank politics? For this, numerical and survey-based proof is required, and I would be happy if anybody puts this forward. Unnecessarily are communities being maligned in the name of vote bank. Is this correct? As for our politicians, we all know they are fools who can lead to their own doom, so we should worry about developmental concerns, not about vote bank politics. Anyways, this has actually led to inclusive politics and inclusive democracy in India, and we should promote it. Regards Rakesh From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Tue May 26 21:06:47 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 16:36:47 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] The Last Man in Europe Message-ID: <65be9bf40905260836y64638e28j4df0186ef79a0dc9@mail.gmail.com> http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2009/may/10/1984-george-orwell The masterpiece that killed George Orwell In 1946 Observer editor David Astor lent George Orwell a remote Scottish farmhouse in which to write his new book, Nineteen Eighty-Four. It became one of the most significant novels of the 20th century. Here, Robert McCrum tells the compelling story of Orwell's torturous stay on the island where the author, close to death and beset by creative demons, was engaged in a feverish race to finish the book "It was a bright cold day in April, and the clocks were striking thirteen." Sixty years after the publication of Orwell's masterpiece, Nineteen Eighty-Four, that crystal first line sounds as natural and compelling as ever. But when you see the original manuscript, you find something else: not so much the ringing clarity, more the obsessive rewriting, in different inks, that betrays the extraordinary turmoil behind its composition. Probably the definitive novel of the 20th century, a story that remains eternally fresh and contemporary, and whose terms such as "Big Brother", "doublethink" and "newspeak" have become part of everyday currency, Nineteen Eighty-Four has been translated into more than 65 languages and sold millions of copies worldwide, giving George Orwell a unique place in world literature. "Orwellian" is now a universal shorthand for anything repressive or totalitarian, and the story of Winston Smith, an everyman for his times, continues to resonate for readers whose fears for the future are very different from those of an English writer in the mid-1940s. The circumstances surrounding the writing of Nineteen Eighty-Four make a haunting narrative that helps to explain the bleakness of Orwell's dystopia. Here was an English writer, desperately sick, grappling alone with the demons of his imagination in a bleak Scottish outpost in the desolate aftermath of the second world war. The idea for Nineteen Eighty-Four, alternatively, "The Last Man in Europe", had been incubating in Orwell's mind since the Spanish civil war. His novel, which owes something to Yevgeny Zamyatin's dystopian fiction We, probably began to acquire a definitive shape during 1943-44, around the time he and his wife, Eileen adopted their only son, Richard. Orwell himself claimed that he was partly inspired by the meeting of the Allied leaders at the Tehran Conference of 1944. Isaac Deutscher, an Observer colleague, reported that Orwell was "convinced that Stalin, Churchill and Roosevelt consciously plotted to divide the world" at Tehran. Orwell had worked for David Astor's Observer since 1942, first as a book reviewer and later as a correspondent. The editor professed great admiration for Orwell's "absolute straightforwardness, his honesty and his decency", and would be his patron throughout the 1940s. The closeness of their friendship is crucial to the story of Nineteen Eighty-Four. Orwell's creative life had already benefited from his association with the Observer in the writing of Animal Farm. As the war drew to a close, the fruitful interaction of fiction and Sunday journalism would contribute to the much darker and more complex novel he had in mind after that celebrated "fairy tale". It's clear from his Observer book reviews, for example, that he was fascinated by the relationship between morality and language. There were other influences at work. Soon after Richard was adopted, Orwell's flat was wrecked by a doodlebug. The atmosphere of random terror in the everyday life of wartime London became integral to the mood of the novel-in-progress. Worse was to follow. In March 1945, while on assignment for the Observer in Europe, Orwell received the news that his wife, Eileen, had died under anaesthesia during a routine operation. Suddenly he was a widower and a single parent, eking out a threadbare life in his Islington lodgings, and working incessantly to dam the flood of remorse and grief at his wife's premature death. In 1945, for instanc e, he wrote almost 110,000 words for various publications, including 15 book reviews for the Observer. Now Astor stepped in. His family owned an estate on the remote Scottish island of Jura, next to Islay. There was a house, Barnhill, seven miles outside Ardlussa at the remote northern tip of this rocky finger of heather in the Inner Hebrides. Initially, Astor offered it to Orwell for a holiday. Speaking to the Observer last week, Richard Blair says he believes, from family legend, that Astor was taken aback by the enthusiasm of Orwell's response. In May 1946 Orwell, still picking up the shattered pieces of his life, took the train for the long and arduous journey to Jura. He told his friend Arthur Koestler that it was "almost like stocking up ship for an arctic voyage". It was a risky move; Orwell was not in good health. The winter of 1946-47 was one of the coldest of the century. Postwar Britain was bleaker even than wartime, and he had always suffered from a bad chest. At least, cut off from the irritations of literary London, he was free to grapple unencumbered with the new novel. "Smothered under journalism," as he put it, he told one friend, "I have become more and more like a sucked orange." Ironically, part of Orwell's difficulties derived from the success of Animal Farm. After years of neglect and indifference the world was waking up to his genius. "Everyone keeps coming at me," he complained to Koestler, "wanting me to lecture, to write commissioned booklets, to join this and that, etc - you don't know how I pine to be free of it all and have time to think again." On Jura he would be liberated from these distractions but the promise of creative freedom on an island in the Hebrides came with its own price. Years before, in the essay "Why I Write", he had described the struggle to complete a book: "Writing a book is a horrible, exhausting struggle, like a long bout of some painful illness. One would never undertake such a thing if one were not driven by some demon whom one can neither resist or [sic] understand. For all one knows that demon is the same instinct that makes a baby squall for attention. And yet it is also true that one can write nothing readable unless one constantly struggles to efface one's personality." Then that famous Orwellian coda. "Good prose is like a window pane." >From the spring of 1947 to his death in 1950 Orwell would re-enact every aspect of this struggle in the most painful way imaginable. Privately, perhaps, he relished the overlap between theory and practice. He had always thrived on self-inflicted adversity. At first, after "a quite unendurable winter", he revelled in the isolation and wild beauty of Jura. "I am struggling with this book," he wrote to his agent, "which I may finish by the end of the year - at any rate I shall have broken the back by then so long as I keep well and keep off journalistic work until the autumn." Barnhill, overlooking the sea at the top of a potholed track, was not large, with four small bedrooms above a spacious kitchen. Life was simple, even primitive. There was no electricity. Orwell used Calor gas to cook and to heat water. Storm lanterns burned paraffin. In the evenings he also burned peat. He was still chain-smoking black shag tobacco in roll-up cigarettes: the fug in the house was cosy but not healthy. A battery radio was the only connection with the outside world. Orwell, a gentle, unworldly sort of man, arrived with just a camp bed, a table, a couple of chairs and a few pots and pans. It was a spartan existence but supplied the conditions under which he liked to work. He is remembered here as a spectre in the mist, a gaunt figure in oilskins. The locals knew him by his real name of Eric Blair, a tall, cadaverous, sad-looking man worrying about how he would cope on his own. The solution, when he was joined by baby Richard and his nanny, was to recruit his highly competent sister, Avril. Richard Blair remembers that his father "could not have done it without Avril. She was an excellent cook, and very practical. None of the accounts of my father's time on Jura recognise how essential she was." Once his new regime was settled, Orwell could finally make a start on the book. At the end of May 1947 he told his publisher, Fred Warburg: "I think I must have written nearly a third of the rough draft. I have not got as far as I had hoped to do by this time because I really have been in most wretched health this year ever since about January (my chest as usual) and can't quite shake it off." Mindful of his publisher's impatience for the new novel, Orwell added: "Of course the rough draft is always a ghastly mess bearing little relation to the finished result, but all the same it is the main part of the job." Still, he pressed on, and at the end of July was predicting a completed "rough draft" by October. After that, he said, he would need another six months to polish up the text for publication. But then, disaster. Part of the pleasure of life on Jura was that he and his young son could enjoy the outdoor life together, go fishing, explore the island, and potter about in boats. In August, during a spell of lovely summer weather, Orwell, Avril, Richard and some friends, returning from a hike up the coast in a small motor boat, were nearly drowned in the infamous Corryvreckan whirlpool. Richard Blair remembers being "bloody cold" in the freezing water, and Orwell, whose constant coughing worried his friends, did his lungs no favours. Within two months he was seriously ill. Typically, his account to David Astor of this narrow escape was laconic, even nonchalant. The long struggle with "The Last Man in Europe" continued. In late October 1947, oppressed with "wretched health", Orwell recognised that his novel was still "a most dreadful mess and about two-thirds of it will have to be retyped entirely". He was working at a feverish pace. Visitors to Barnhill recall the sound of his typewriter pounding away upstairs in his bedroom. Then, in November, tended by the faithful Avril, he collapsed with "inflammation of the lungs" and told Koestler that he was "very ill in bed". Just before Christmas, in a letter to an Observer colleague, he broke the news he had always dreaded. Finally he had been diagnosed with TB. A few days later, writing to Astor from Hairmyres hospital, East Kilbride, Lanarkshire, he admitted: "I still feel deadly sick," and conceded that, when illness struck after the Corryvreckan whirlpool incident, "like a fool I decided not to go to a doctor - I wanted to get on with the book I was writing." In 1947 there was no cure for TB - doctors prescribed fresh air and a regular diet - but there was a new, experimental drug on the market, streptomycin. Astor arranged for a shipment to Hairmyres from the US. Richard Blair believes that his father was given excessive doses of the new wonder drug. The side effects were horrific (throat ulcers, blisters in the mouth, hair loss, peeling skin and the disintegration of toe and fingernails) but in March 1948, after a three-month course, the TB symptoms had disappeared. "It's all over now, and evidently the drug has done its stuff," Orwell told his publisher. "It's rather like sinking the ship to get rid of the rats, but worth it if it works." As he prepared to leave hospital Orwell received the letter from his publisher which, in hindsight, would be another nail in his coffin. "It really is rather important," wrote Warburg to his star author, "from the point of view of your literary career to get it [the new novel] by the end of the year and indeed earlier if possible." Just when he should have been convalescing Orwell was back at Barnhill, deep into the revision of his manuscript, promising Warburg to deliver it in "early December", and coping with "filthy weather" on autumnal Jura. Early in October he confided to Astor: "I have got so used to writing in bed that I think I prefer it, though of course it's awkward to type there. I am just struggling with the last stages of this bloody book [which is] about the possible state of affairs if the atomic war isn't conclusive." This is one of Orwell's exceedingly rare references to the theme of his book. He believed, as many writers do, that it was bad luck to discuss work-in-progress. Later, to Anthony Powell, he described it as "a Utopia written in the form of a novel". The typing of the fair copy of "The Last Man in Europe" became another dimension of Orwell's battle with his book. The more he revised his "unbelievably bad" manuscript the more it became a document only he could read and interpret. It was, he told his agent, "extremely long, even 125,000 words". With characteristic candour, he noted: "I am not pleased with the book but I am not absolutely dissatisfied... I think it is a good idea but the execution would have been better if I had not written it under the influence of TB." And he was still undecided about the title: "I am inclined to call it NINETEEN EIGHTY-FOUR or THE LAST MAN IN EUROPE," he wrote, "but I might just possibly think of something else in the next week or two." By the end of October Orwell believed he was done. Now he just needed a stenographer to help make sense of it all. It was a desperate race against time. Orwell's health was deteriorating, the "unbelievably bad" manuscript needed retyping, and the December deadline was looming. Warburg promised to help, and so did Orwell's agent. At cross-purposes over possible typists, they somehow contrived to make a bad situation infinitely worse. Orwell, feeling beyond help, followed his ex-public schoolboy's instincts: he would go it alone. By mid-November, too weak to walk, he retired to bed to tackle "the grisly job" of typing the book on his "decrepit typewriter" by himself. Sustained by endless roll-ups, pots of coffee, strong tea and the warmth of his paraffin heater, with gales buffeting Barnhill, night and day, he struggled on. By 30 November 1948 it was virtually done. Now Orwell, the old campaigner, protested to his agent that "it really wasn't worth all this fuss. It's merely that, as it tires me to sit upright for any length of time, I can't type very neatly and can't do many pages a day." Besides, he added, it was "wonderful" what mistakes a professional typist could make, and "in this book there is the difficulty that it contains a lot of neologisms". The typescript of George Orwell's latest novel reached London in mid December, as promised. Warburg recognised its qualities at once ("amongst the most terrifying books I have ever read") and so did his colleagues. An in-house memo noted "if we can't sell 15 to 20 thousand copies we ought to be shot". By now Orwell had left Jura and checked into a TB sanitorium high in the Cotswolds. "I ought to have done this two months ago," he told Astor, "but I wanted to get that bloody book finished." Once again Astor stepped in to monitor his friend's treatment but Orwell's specialist was privately pessimistic. As word of Nineteen Eighty-Four began to circulate, Astor's journalistic instincts kicked in and he began to plan an Observer Profile, a significant accolade but an idea that Orwell contemplated "with a certain alarm". As spring came he was "having haemoptyses" (spitting blood) and "feeling ghastly most of the time" but was able to involve himself in the pre-publication rituals of the novel, registering "quite good notices" with satisfaction. He joked to Astor that it wouldn't surprise him "if you had to change that profile into an obituary". Nineteen Eighty-Four was published on 8 June 1949 (five days later in the US) and was almost universally recognised as a masterpiece, even by Winston Churchill, who told his doctor that he had read it twice. Orwell's health continued to decline. In October 1949, in his room at University College hospital, he married Sonia Brownell, with David Astor as best man. It was a fleeting moment of happiness; he lingered into the new year of 1950. In the small hours of 21 January he suffered a massive haemorrhage in hospital and died alone. The news was broadcast on the BBC the next morning. Avril Blair and her nephew, still up on Jura, heard the report on the little battery radio in Barnhill. Richard Blair does not recall whether the day was bright or cold but remembers the shock of the news: his father was dead, aged 46. David Astor arranged for Orwell's burial in the churchyard at Sutton Courtenay, Oxfordshire. He lies there now, as Eric Blair, between HH Asquith and a local family of Gypsies. Why '1984'? Orwell's title remains a mystery. Some say he was alluding to the centenary of the Fabian Society, founded in 1884. Others suggest a nod to Jack London's novel The Iron Heel (in which a political movement comes to power in 1984), or perhaps to one of his favourite writer GK Chesterton's story, "The Napoleon of Notting Hill", which is set in 1984. In his edition of the Collected Works (20 volumes), Peter Davison notes that Orwell's American publisher claimed that the title derived from reversing the date, 1948, though there's no documentary evidence for this. Davison also argues that the date 1984 is linked to the year of Richard Blair's birth, 1944, and notes that in the manuscript of the novel, the narrative occurs, successively, in 1980, 1982 and finally, 1984. There's no mystery about the decision to abandon "The Last Man in Europe". Orwell himself was always unsure of it. It was his publisher, Fred Warburg who suggested that Nineteen Eighty-Four was a more commercial title. Freedom of speech: How '1984' has entrusted our culture The effect of Nineteen Eighty-Four on our cultural and linguistic landscape has not been limited to either the film adaptation starring John Hurt and Richard Burton, with its Nazi-esque rallies and chilling soundtrack, nor the earlier one with Michael Redgrave and Edmond O'Brien. It is likely, however, that many people watching the Big Brother series on television (in the UK, let alone in Angola, Oman or Sweden, or any of the other countries whose TV networks broadcast programmes in the same format) have no idea where the title comes from or that Big Brother himself, whose role in the reality show is mostly to keep the peace between scrapping, swearing contestants like a wise uncle, is not so benign in his original incarnation. Apart from pop-culture renditions of some of the novel's themes, aspects of its language have been leapt upon by libertarians to describe the curtailment of freedom in the real world by politicians and officials - alarmingly, nowhere and never more often than in contemporary Britain. Orwellian George owes his own adjective to this book alone and his idea that wellbeing is crushed by restrictive, authoritarian and untruthful government. Big Brother (is watching you) A term in common usage for a scarily omniscient ruler long before the worldwide smash-hit reality-TV show was even a twinkle in its producers' eyes. The irony of societal hounding of Big Brother contestants would not have been lost on George Orwell. Room 101 Some hotels have refused to call a guest bedroom number 101 - rather like those tower blocks that don't have a 13th floor - thanks to the ingenious Orwellian concept of a room that contains whatever its occupant finds most impossible to endure. Like Big Brother, this has spawned a modern TV show: in this case, celebrities are invited to name the people or objects they hate most in the world. Thought Police An accusation often levelled at the current government by those who like it least is that they are trying to tell us what we can and cannot think is right and wrong. People who believe that there are correct ways to think find themselves named after Orwell's enforcement brigade. Thoughtcrime See "Thought Police" above. The act or fact of transgressing enforced wisdom. Newspeak For Orwell, freedom of expression was not just about freedom of thought but also linguistic freedom. This term, denoting the narrow and diminishing official vocabulary, has been used ever since to denote jargon currently in vogue with those in power. Doublethink Hypocrisy, but with a twist. Rather than choosing to disregard a contradiction in your opinion, if you are doublethinking, you are deliberately forgetting that the contradiction is there. This subtlety is mostly overlooked by people using the accusation of "doublethink" when trying to accuse an adversary of being hypocritical - but it is a very popular word with people who like a good debate along with their pints in the pub. Oliver Marre From ysaeed7 at yahoo.com Tue May 26 21:52:29 2009 From: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com (Yousuf) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 09:22:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Indian elections: how to woo Muslims to vote for you Message-ID: <1147.67847.qm@web51410.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear Kshmendra Its good that you put my phrase about "lack of political leadership" within quotes - I should have done that in the original mail, since I am not the one complaining about the "lack" - I am only comparing it with the religious leadership (which btw is no different from the political one). I'm not sure if its so easy to say that "Muslims themselves" set them apart as a community, and thus get wooed during the elections (why can't it be the other way around?). I'm not even sure if one can woo the Muslims of Saharanpur in the same manner as those of Meerut. But somehow the political parties (since probably 1947) have been imagining Muslims to be a monolithic vote ATM, and help in the process of "ghettoization", often incorporating the religious leaders and so on. Talking of "ghettoization" (I hate that word), I've often heard another vague but very popular term: UNITY. "Hamari qaum mein unity nahin hai" (our community is not united). And the people of each community believe that the "other" community is stronger because "they are united while we are not." And this is not a Muslim phenomena - I have heard this exact sentence in roadside conversations among members of many communities. Obviously, the unity here doesn't mean "harmony"; it simply means polarization according to ideology. I am yet to come across in India a sustained example of harmony between differing ideologies, rather than a polarization. And that makes us wonder how meaningful is our democracy any way if it is built largely on polarization and herding. Yousuf --- On Tue, 5/26/09, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > From: Kshmendra Kaul > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian elections: how to woo Muslims to vote for you > To: "Yousuf" > Cc: "Sarai reader list" > Date: Tuesday, May 26, 2009, 7:15 PM > Dear Yousuf >   > It should not be surprising that political parties > aggresively woo and try to appease Muslims at the time of > elections. >   > For various reasons, the "Collective Muslim > Identity" is one which is furthered by Muslims > themselves. If Muslims set themselves apart as a group then > they will be wooed as a group in a manner that the suitors > think will best engage their attention and favour (example > Babri and Gujarat). >   > It is quite likely that given the contours of 1947- > partition, special attention needed to be paid to Muslims so > as to reassure them of their rightful and equal space in a > Secular India. This might have led to the creation > of  the first Political Ghettos of Muslims. These > getting solidified has both social and political > reasons and perhaps even compulsions. >   > When you or anyone else talks about "lack of > effective political leader in the community", you > automatically are subscribing to and feeding the political > ghettoisation of Muslims. >   > This is not unique to Muslims, the same is done to and > done by other 'groups' based on religion, caste > etc. >   > The caste based politics amongst Hindus is notorious > enough but even the Sikhs have succumbed to it. >   > Posters are unlikely to reflect it but, on the > ground, even amongst the Muslims sub-groups are > identified and wooed depending (for example) if the Shias > are voters in greater numbers or Sunnis. >   > In the case of Muslims however, perhaps due to the > most prominent 'other' political contender being the > BJP, appealing to 'All Muslims' is the easy path to > take for presenting a political party as a 'saviour of > Muslims'. >   > Kshmendra >     > > --- On Tue, 5/26/09, Yousuf > wrote: > > > From: Yousuf > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian elections: how to woo > Muslims to vote for you > To: "Tasveer Ghar" , > "Taha Mehmood" > <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> > Cc: "Sarai reader list" > , "Tasveer Ghar > group" > Date: Tuesday, May 26, 2009, 1:06 PM > > > > Dear Taha, Kshmendra and others > Thanks for your comments and questions. This image gallery > is really a work-in-progress, and its a tip of the iceberg > from what one notices in Urdu press. I have been surveying > Urdu newspaper off-and-on and I was surprised to see the > quantity and diversity of the election posters. Here are > some random comments on your questions: > > First of all, this survey is limited to only a handful of > Urdu newspapers published from Delhi and UP which cater to > some districts of western UP (the region that had the > fiercest competition between Mulayam, Mayawati, Congress, > BJP). The reach and impact of those papers is yet to be > studied, since many of them are temporary publications. I > also haven't looked in detail at the Hindi newspapers or > the local TV shows (or local graffiti, wall posters) to make > a comparison. But the use of Urdu newspapers in this manner > does reveal a lot about how they become a via > media to cater to a community. Maybe all Muslims in > Delhi/UP don't read Urdu, but the news certainly > trickles down through these papers. The tone of the ads by > all 4 parties sounds like a fish market where each candidate > is showing how he/she is better for the Muslims and how the > other party has always ditched the community. > > Yes the use of religious leaders/clergy (for canvassing) is > still an effective tool - mainly because the imams and pir > sahebs (from Sufi shrines) do hold an authority over large > sections of local population, probably due to a lack of > effective political leader in the community. But it is no > longer a situation where only one big leader (like the imam > Bukhari could hold his sway nationwide). And this may not be > a new phenomena - there is a long history of the political > impact of religious clergy on the community. But what is > worth studying (and also disturbing) is how these ads for > Muslims seldom talk about nation-building or > nationhood (which you see in the mainstream BJP ads), but > only restrict Muslims to their immediate concerns of Babri > and Gujarat etc. > > Babri mosque and Gujarat pogrom are used ferociously by all > parties (except BJP) to woo Muslims in these ads, but I am > not sure if the readers/voters are so stupid that they > can't see the ludicrousness of how two or more ads on > the same newspaper page are using the same agenda to hit at > the other party/candidate. Its funny how the newspaper could > even sell the adjacent ad space to 3 different parties who > are attacking each other. > > I haven't come across any example so far of > "appeasing" of other communities this way by all > parties - although the BJP did use it in a reverse way to > attack the Congress in the earlier Delhi elections, by > listing out its various evils including the > "mushrooming of Batla Houses" in Delhi, if you > remember that ad. > > More later probably. > > Yousuf > > > --- On Mon, > 5/25/09, Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> > wrote: > > > From: Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian elections: how to > woo Muslims to vote for you > > To: "Tasveer Ghar" > > Cc: "Sarai reader list" > > Date: Monday, May 25, 2009, 4:52 PM > > If we assume that the elections > > posters were intended to appeal > to > > Muslims of North India, then a survey of posters > throws up > > some > > questions- > > > > 1. Do all Muslims of North India know how to read > Urdu? If > > no, then- > > 2. Why do political parties equate Muslims=Urdu > speaking? > > 3. Do all Muslims of North India always think of > Gujarat as > > an assault > > on their collective religious identity all the time, > > especially when > > they are about to vote? > > 4. Just like in earlier times, Imam Bukhari's > fatwa to vote > > for > > erstwhile Janta dal was assumed to be the ultimate > clarion > > call to > > North Indian Muslims, this time too, it appears, as > if, the > > stereotype > > of Indian voters who happen to follow Islam, robs them > from > > any agency > > to think and act on their own. I wonder why is an > appeal > > from > > authority is such a big deal in political > communication? > > 5. I wonder > if posters issued by political parties to > > appeal to > > followers of other religions like Sikhism, Jainism, > > Buddhism or those > > Indian voters who constitute a strategic vote bank > follow a > > similar > > trend? > > > > Regards > > > > Taha > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > > city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > >       > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed May 27 10:07:21 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 10:07:21 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Massacres - Part 3 Message-ID: <6b79f1a70905262137h5ec0540eq5efa8bb79615fac1@mail.gmail.com> Sanity and Madness on 13th July, 1931 The communal pogrom against Kashmiri Hindus and Khatri traders was a pre-planned move by the leaders of 13th July agitation and their sponsors - the British Political Department. Hindus became victims of the mad frenzy in Vicharnag, Maharajganj, Khankah Mohalla, in Srinagar city and at Shopian and Anantnag towns. The events which took place in Khankah mohalla reveal an interesting pattern. While the members of the majority community displayed strong communal passions when they came to attack Pandits, the immediate neighbours played a positive role. Five Pandit families lived in Khankah mohalla, opposite the Kali Shrine. These families included three families of Kouls - Ram Nath, Nilakanth and Rughnath. They were all cousins. The other two families - Niranjan Nath Wali and Dina Nath Wali lived jointly. Soon after looting Khatri shops in Maharajgunj the big mob turned to Khankah Mohalla to attack Kashmiri Hindus. The neighbours of the Pandit families - Gh. Mohammad Qalinbaf and Ahad Sakka (water carrier) rose to the occasion and decided not to betray their neighbours with whom they had been living through generations. At the suggestion of these neighbours the Kouls hid themselves in attic storey (Brer Kani) of the house. Sakka had asked Kouls to throw some household refuse on the verandah and keep windows and doors open to mislead the rioters. The Pandits, on hearing about the atrocities in other parts of the city were gripped with fear. Ram Nath recalls, "we tied our womenfolk with rope lest they escape out of fear. We had also decided to poison them to death in case an eventuality of kidnapping/molestation arose". When looters came, the families of Ahad Sakka and Qalinbaff told them that Pandits fled from their home on learning that the mob was on way to attack them. To keep rioters in good humour, Sakka and Qalinbaff mockingly abused Pandits and succeeded in turning the mob away. The mob stood for 25-30 minutes at Kaul's house. Neighbours of Walis also tried to save Walis but the mob had its way. Niranjan Nath Wali was an affluent person. Some people in the mob owed him money. They succeeded in instigating the frenzied mob to attack Niranjan and loot his property. After the looters left, Kouls shifted to the house of Ahad Sakka and stayed there for three days. This was the fortnight when Hindus observe shraddas of their departed near and dear ones. Members of the Koul family would stealthily during the night go to their home, prepare food and come back. At Sakka's home they took only pears and water. 3 days later Kouls shifted to Chinkral mohalla first and later to Sathu Barbarshah where Ramnath's aunt lived. Nilakanth Koul served in Police Department. He shifted his family to police lines. Such was the terror that Ramnath's family was brought back to Chinkral Mohalla in a special police van, nicknamed by locals as 'Rat Trap'. The Kouls never went back to live in the Mohalla where they had lived for centuries. They sold their house to Gh. Mohammad Qalinbaf in 1932. This in itself is an indicator of the terror created by the events of 13th July. Kashmir Sentinel From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed May 27 10:09:17 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 10:09:17 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?Early_Kashmiri_Society=97Status_of?= =?windows-1252?q?_Women?= Message-ID: <6b79f1a70905262139o6811c6cfnfbb2741c275105ca@mail.gmail.com> Early Kashmiri Society—Status of Women By Dr. Shashishekar Toshkani One of the most significant, and surprising, features of the early Kashmiri society was the freedom that women enjoyed. The picture one gets of their life from various literary sources is not that of servitude or deprivation but of happy participation in different spheres of human activity. There was no attempt to marginalise them or deculturise their personality, as was being done in other contemporary societies elsewhere in the world. Though under the protective umbrella of the family, they occupied a pivotal place in social life and moved about with unfettered freedom. Undoubtedly, the society was patriarchal, but there was no restriction on the movement of women, nor were any irrational curbs imposed on their activity. In the age of Nilamata and the centuries that followed, female seclusion was something unknown in Kashmir till Islam made its advent. Participating joyfully in the numerous festivals prescribed in the Nilamata, they would go to the gardens in the company of their menfolk without any inhibition or fear of approbation. For instance, during the Iramanjari- utsava, they would freely sport with men under the flower-laden boughs of the Iramanjari shrubs, exchanging garlands of flowers with men in a spirit of gay abandon Or go to the fruit gardens on the Ashokikash tami day to worship fruit-bearing trees”’. Such was the spirit of the times that during the Shravani Utsava. young maidens were enjoined to go and enjoy water sports. Yet another seasonal-festival was Krishyarambha when peasant women would accompany their menfolk to the “open fields of nature for ceremonial ploughing of the soil and sowing of seeds”. It was a month long festival celebrated amidst much singing and dancing While these outdoor festivals showed that women in these times were in no way confined to the four walls of their homes, there were numerous indoor festivals too. For instance, during the Kaumudi Mahotsava or the festival of the Full Moon, women would sit beside the sacred fire with their husbands and children, watching the beauty of the moonlit night.  Even servants were allowed to participate in such festivals. There was Madana Trayodashai, festival dedicated to the god of love. On this occasion a husband would demonstrate his love for his wife by personally giving her a bath with sacred water scented by herbs. Similarly, at the end of the three-day Mahimana celebrations, well-adorned ladies would freely and joyfully play with men. On Sukha Suptika or Deepawali night, the well-adorned wife, could display her charms to her husband in the exciting privacy of the specially decorated bedroom and savour his compliments. That is not all. There were special occasions when men were to make ladies of the house happy by giving them new clothes as presents. One such occasion was on the Navahimapata-utsava or the New Snowfall Day— a festival that was celebrated by the Kashmiri Pandits till they were exiled from their native land. On the full moon day of Margashirsha (January-February), the householder is enjoined by the Nilamata to invite his sister, paternal aunt and friend’s wife, besides a Brahmana lady, and honour them with gifts of new clothes. Presentation of gifts to a friend’s wife! That could happen only in a free society. An enlivening feature of these beautiful festivals was, music, dance and dramatic shows. These were an essential part of the festivals that the early Hindus of Kashmir celebrated, and the ladies watched these shows with great joy. Not only watched them but must have participated in them. And the ladies were attractively attired, well decorated and well perfumed during these festivities. Surely, this must have added great charm and beauty to their life. Another thing even more important to be noted is that these ancient social festivals have a religious setting. Coming to religious life, the presence of women in the performance of various rites. rituals and ceremonies was regarded as essential. And that is how things should have been in a society where people regarded Kashmir, their native land an embodiment of goddess Uma. This is very significant, for it shows that the Mother Goddess cult has occupied a central place in the religious beliefs of Kashmiri Hindus from the earliest times, a cult that explains respect for women as an aspect of reverence for the divine feminine. A host of goddesses began to be worshipped in Kashmir from Uma and Durga, Lakshmi, Saraswati and Mahakali to the very popular and very local deities like Sharika, Ragya, Tripura and Jwala. Shaiva and Shakta Tantricism, which became very popular in Kashmir from the 7th century, identifies Shakti with Supreme Reality, which, it says is “female in essence”. That makes us understand why an aspirant taking to the Kulachara mode of worship is asked to look upon women with extreme reverence. One of the most noteworthy features of early Kashmir society was that women had access to good and liberal education. They were taught among other things, literature and fine arts and given practical training in music, dance and drama, which were considered as accomplishments fit for them. There is ample evidence for this in Kaihana’s Rajatarangini, Somadeva’s Katha-sarit-sagara, Damodargupta’s KuttanimataKavya, Bilhana’s Vikramankadeva Charit and several other works. The great Sanskrit grammarian Pamni gives the formation  Kathi, for a female student to Kathaka school of Black Yajurveda to which the Kashmiri Pandits belong. An idea of the curriculum can be had from the Kuttanimata Kavya. A girl was taught variety of subjects, we learn, including literature, Bharata’s Natyashastra. paintings, aboriculture, cookery, cut—work in leaves (patra-chcheda), vocal and instrumental music etc. In a nostalgic mood Bilhana remembers towards the end of Vikramakadeva Charit the accomplished women of Kashmir who not only spoke Sanskrit and Prakrit as fluently as their mother tongue, but, also composed poetry in it. In theatrical performance and dancing they excelled the celestial maidens. Several women have played a significant role in shaping the political history of Kashmir. Yashovati became the first queen in Kashmir to be enthroned as a ruler — even though as a regent. Queens like Sugandha and Didda gave very impressive account of their. administrative acumen. Many others, like Khadana. Amritprabha, Chakramardika, Kalyandevi, Ratnadevi and Kamla Devi built shrines and marketplaces and towns. Chandrapida’s queen Kalyanadevi was exalted by the King as “Mahapratiharapala, something like the Chief Chamberlain. Suryamati, the queen of King Ananta helped her husband to overcome his initial difficulties in administering the State. Queen Kalhanika, was sent on a delicate diplomatic mission of bringing about a rappochement between Jayasimha and Bhoja. This presupposes that these queens must have received some training in the art of administration and diplomacy previously. As for the common woman, we do not know what occupations, if any, were open to her besides that of a housewife. We have a water carrier sculpted on a tile from Harvwan. Perhaps some women worked as flower-sellers too. Most of them, however. took care of their family and children, acting as wife and mother. There is evidence to show that pre-puberty marriages of girls did not take place. In fact, works like Kshemendra’s Deshopadesha indicate that girls were married at a mature age. Though fidelity in marriage was regarded as an ideal, polygamy seems to have been quite prevalent among the rich and the well-to-do men. The kings had “seraglios full of queens and concubines”. Widows; were supposed to live an austere and highly moral life. Prevalence of sati among the rich and aristocratic families points to some of the blemishes which ancient Kashmiri society suffered from. Though we do not come across any example of polyandry, prostitution seems to have been quite common. “Although prostitution was tolerated as an inescapable evil,’ writes Ajay Mitra Shastri. .‘ the society looked down upon prostitutes and condemned men indulgent to them in unmistakable terms”. Authors like Damodaragupta and Kshemendra were closely acquainted with the trade. Damodargupta’s Kuttanimata gives us an insight into .the prostitutes’ mode of behaviour, their proficiency in literature and fine arts, their greed for money and customs connected with their craft. Kshemendra too in his Narmamala, Samaya Matrika and Deshopadesha draws detailed and graphic pictures of prostitutes’ life and exposes the moral laxity that had crept in his contemporary society. Kalhana and Somadeva also make references to the system of ‘devadasi’ (dedicating girls to a temple for dancing and singing) that seems to have prevailed in Kashmir from quite early times, and could be described as a form of prostitution. On the whole, however, it is a happy picture of Kashmiri women that emerges from literary sources. Dr. S.C.Ray has drawn our attention to very significant fact in this context. To put it in his own words “Women in Kashmir probably had some property rights and independent legal status. Kalhana in his Rajatarangini and Kshemendra in his Samaya Matrika seem to indicate that a widow inherited her husbands’ immovable property after his death, rather than his sons”. This is something really very significant, and needs further research. This discussion about social organization in ancient and early Kashmir is by no means complete and conclusive, but we can safely draw certain inferences. The first and the that must be noted is that though there was an awareness of the four traditional castes, Brahmana, Kshatriya, Vaishya and Shudra, the early Kashmiri society was not rigid about the caste system. In fact, it was divided more along occupational lines than caste lines. The Brahmanas were no doubt highly respected, but because they valued learning above everything else and formed the intellectual class. The religious rituals and ceremonies were performed by the priestly class among the Brahmanas, and not all Brahmanas were priests. Second the most important occupational class in the society was that of the agriculturists, followed by the rich and prosperous merchants and traders and the various upward mobile artisan classes. It were the Damaras among the agriculturists who became very powerful and influential as feudal landlords and interfered with the affairs of the State, holding at times the entire administration to ransom. There was also the administrative class. which was comprised of the nobility and the bureaucracy. The latter was referred to by the cover name of Kayastha or the king’s officers engaged in collecting revenue and taxes, but they did not belong to any specific caste. Their oppressive and exploitative methods and their greed and corruption have been severely criticized by writers like Kshemendra and Kalhana. Thirdly, and lastly, women occupied a high position in the society and enjoyed freedom unknown in contemporary societies elsewhere in the world. Tantracism of the Shaiva and Shakta variety which led to the spread of the mother goddess cult in Kashmir regards Supreme Reality to be feminine in essence and calls for revering women as manifestations of the eternal feminine or Shakti. --To be continued Source: Kashmir Sentinel From chandni.parekh at gmail.com Wed May 27 11:09:57 2009 From: chandni.parekh at gmail.com (Chandni Parekh) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 11:09:57 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Invitation to Seminar on Gender Issues in IIM Ahmedabad on June 14 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I had tried sending this to the Sarai list... the mail didn't go since Sarai ID was BCCed and the mail had attachments. If you want to take a look at the attached files, check http://psychologynews.posterous.com/invitation-to-seminar-on-gender-issues-in-iim - Chandni ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: GEDI Date: 2009/5/26 Subject: Invitation to The GEDI Dialogue at IIM -Ahmedabad Dear Chandni, The Gender Resource Centre at IIM Ahmedabad invites you for a seminar on Gender Equity, Diversity and Inclusivity titled *The GEDI Dialogue* to be held at our institute on June 14, 2009. The seminar is an attempt to bring together corporates, governmental and non-governmental organisations, and academics to interact on gender issues. As some of the participants had professional and personal commitments (vacation time!) owing to which they could not meet the initial registration deadline of May 15, the new deadline for registering is *June 5, 2009.* The following issues will be addressed at the seminar: · Recession and its impact on Gender issues · Women Entrepreneurship · Work Environment · Health and Gender · Legal Environment and Policies · Gender Responsive Budgeting · Education and Gender · Social Networking · CSR and Gender The proceedings will be recorded and published on our GRC website. All participants will be awarded a certificate of participation. The seminar brochure and registration form are attached. Please indicate your area of interest from the above list so as to facilitate discussions on the day of the seminar. We request you to consider nominations from your department as well as spread the word to suitable organisations. Kindly confirm your participation or that of others from your organisation by *June 5, 2009.* For further details, you are welcome to email us at: *gedi at iimahd.ernet.in* Thank you. Warm Regards, Rasika Gaikwad Research Associate Gender Resource Centre (GRC), IIM-Ahmedabad. Tel. No: 079 - 66324426 From iram at sarai.net Wed May 27 11:28:22 2009 From: iram at sarai.net (Iram Ghufran) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 11:28:22 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] fwd: Environment Sustainability Leadership Program, Bombay Message-ID: <4A1CD67E.70101@sarai.net> Subject: Environment Sustainability Leadership Program, June 12, Bombay From: Chandni Parekh Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 15:50:12 +0530 To: undisclosed-recipients:; Excerpts from the post by British Council: We are excited to invite you to participate in our Environment Sustainability Leadership Program (ESLP) - a Climate Change-training program for Civil Society. This program equips people with inspiring and comprehensive tools for the spreading the critical message of climate change. Our one-day interactive workshop is split into two sessions. The first session explores the science and impacts of climate change, with particular focus on Indian impacts. The second session will be led by experts in the various environmental fields and will focus on solutions. The materials presented at the workshop will be provided for you to take with you and use in your personal campaign to educate people. Date- Friday 12th June 2009 Time- 8:30 AM to 5:00 PM Details: http://chandni.posterous.com/environment-sustainability-leadership-program From mitoo at sarai.net Tue May 26 08:59:18 2009 From: mitoo at sarai.net (Mitoo Das) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 08:59:18 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Call for Papers: ICTs & Development | New Delhi | 11-12 March 2010 Message-ID: <4A1B620E.6050505@sarai.net> http://www.iitd.ac.in/events/ICTD2010/ ICTs and Development: An International Workshop for Theory, Practice, & Policy 11-12 March, 2010 Indian Institute of Technology Delhi, New Delhi Sponsored by International Development Research Centre, Canada Unpublished, original empirical papers are invited for the forthcoming international workshop on ICTs and Development: An International Workshop for Theory, Practice, & Policy to be conducted by the Indian Institute of Technology (IIT), New Delhi, India, during 11-12 March 2010. The workshop aims to provide a forum for scholars to share their empirical research with academic experts, policymakers, and activists from the regional and international development community. Papers should examine how mobile phones, computers, and the Internet influence the empowerment of marginal individuals and communities, including whether ICTs create and enhance livelihood opportunities for people in the developing world. Papers should be in the range of 5,000-8,000 words (including abstract and bibliography) and should include a clear discussion of the implications of the findings for development policy and/or practice. No more than twelve papers will be selected by the workshop organizers for presentation.The first author of each paper chosen will be given air fare and lodging/meals. The workshop is part of the project, ICTs and Urban Micro Enterprises: Identifying and Maximizing Opportunities for Economic Development, and is supported by the International Development Research Centre, Canada. The organizers are committed to finding an appropriate publication venue for all papers accepted for the workshop. Deadlines: Submission of manuscripts: 1st October 2009 Announcement of results: 1st December 2009 Submission of final version of the paper: 1st April 2010 For submission of manuscripts and other enquiries, please write to ICTD2010 at gmail.com Workshop Organizers Dr. P. Vigneswara Ilavarasan (IIT Delhi) Prof. Mark R. Levy (Michigan State University) _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From joechrismyles at gmail.com Wed May 27 11:57:52 2009 From: joechrismyles at gmail.com (joe chris) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 01:27:52 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Dear dignitaries and wellwishers: for your kind attention. In-Reply-To: References: <62befe0f0905251049r7f79b14o62c881158c6e3bac@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6165c5a80905262327q7f4efd62h4618efcfb5d5f9ac@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Ram Kumar Date: Mon, May 25, 2009 at 11:19 PM Dear sir/ Madam, sorry for the inconvenience being caused. This is to inform you that, here with I am enclosing a letter addressing the Honourable Prime Minister of India requesting a separate Minister of State for the welfare of the disabled under the cabinet Ministry of Social Justice. Kindly read and forward the same to the following email id: secretariat at ncpedp.org. in your name. Once again, sorry for the inconvenience caused by me. Let us hope for the best. D, Ramkumar, Assistant Professor of English cum Head, Dept of Languages, Kasthurba College for Women, Puducherry and PHD Scholar in English, Pondicherry University (a central University). Mobile: 09952990192 home: 0413 3290383 skipe name: ramkumarpondicherry alternate email id: drk_wisdom at yahoo.co.in -- Regards, joe christopher From shuddha at sarai.net Wed May 27 12:31:18 2009 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 12:31:18 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Massacres - Part 3 In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70905262137h5ec0540eq5efa8bb79615fac1@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70905262137h5ec0540eq5efa8bb79615fac1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Pawan, For every one instance of assaults on Hindus by Muslims that you post, someone else may be able to find one, two, three, four instances of assaults on Muslims by Hindus. And none would be false, neither your claims, nor theirs. And then you would find more, and then they would find more, and life on this list would continue to spiral on to a vulgar exhibitionism of everybody's agony and mutual hatred. We've been down that road before. Who, after all, has not had a hard time in the twentieth century? Which identity cannot claim for itself the mantle of the victim? All this would only demonstrate what we know only too well, that human beings are vile, that religions (all religions, without exception, and modern ideologies, offer rationalizations for gratuitous acts of violence). So, what does that achieve ? I think nothing. Can we move on from this, and explore things that are new, that are surprising, that are discoveries, that extend our appreciation of our histories instead of trading the same monotonous charges, can we sometimes locate the occasional highlights that still continue to shine in the fragile house of the human spirit? Or must we remain forever trapped in this cycle of proving who had a worse twentieth century than whom? Speaking for myself, I have better things to do than be caught being a spectator to this kind of sado- masochism of the spirit. I hope I am not the only one who feels this way. Shuddha On 27-May-09, at 10:07 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Sanity and Madness on 13th July, 1931 > > The communal pogrom against Kashmiri Hindus and Khatri traders was a > pre-planned move by the leaders of 13th July agitation and their > sponsors - the British Political Department. > > Hindus became victims of the mad frenzy in Vicharnag, Maharajganj, > Khankah Mohalla, in Srinagar city and at Shopian and Anantnag towns. > > The events which took place in Khankah mohalla reveal an interesting > pattern. While the members of the majority community displayed strong > communal passions when they came to attack Pandits, the immediate > neighbours played a positive role. > > Five Pandit families lived in Khankah mohalla, opposite the Kali > Shrine. These families included three families of Kouls - Ram Nath, > Nilakanth and Rughnath. They were all cousins. The other two families > - Niranjan Nath Wali and Dina Nath Wali lived jointly. > > Soon after looting Khatri shops in Maharajgunj the big mob turned to > Khankah Mohalla to attack Kashmiri Hindus. The neighbours of the > Pandit families - Gh. Mohammad Qalinbaf and Ahad Sakka (water carrier) > rose to the occasion and decided not to betray their neighbours with > whom they had been living through generations. At the suggestion of > these neighbours the Kouls hid themselves in attic storey (Brer Kani) > of the house. Sakka had asked Kouls to throw some household refuse on > the verandah and keep windows and doors open to mislead the rioters. > The Pandits, on hearing about the atrocities in other parts of the > city were gripped with fear. Ram Nath recalls, "we tied our womenfolk > with rope lest they escape out of fear. We had also decided to poison > them to death in case an eventuality of kidnapping/molestation arose". > > When looters came, the families of Ahad Sakka and Qalinbaff told them > that Pandits fled from their home on learning that the mob was on way > to attack them. To keep rioters in good humour, Sakka and Qalinbaff > mockingly abused Pandits and succeeded in turning the mob away. The > mob stood for 25-30 minutes at Kaul's house. > > Neighbours of Walis also tried to save Walis but the mob had its way. > Niranjan Nath Wali was an affluent person. Some people in the mob owed > him money. They succeeded in instigating the frenzied mob to attack > Niranjan and loot his property. > > After the looters left, Kouls shifted to the house of Ahad Sakka and > stayed there for three days. This was the fortnight when Hindus > observe shraddas of their departed near and dear ones. Members of the > Koul family would stealthily during the night go to their home, > prepare food and come back. At Sakka's home they took only pears and > water. > > 3 days later Kouls shifted to Chinkral mohalla first and later to > Sathu Barbarshah where Ramnath's aunt lived. Nilakanth Koul served in > Police Department. > > He shifted his family to police lines. Such was the terror that > Ramnath's family was brought back to Chinkral Mohalla in a special > police van, nicknamed by locals as 'Rat Trap'. The Kouls never went > back to live in the Mohalla where they had lived for centuries. They > sold their house to Gh. Mohammad Qalinbaf in 1932. This in itself is > an indicator of the terror created by the events of 13th July. Kashmir > Sentinel > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com Wed May 27 12:45:37 2009 From: rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com (Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 12:45:37 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Massacres - Part 3 In-Reply-To: References: <6b79f1a70905262137h5ec0540eq5efa8bb79615fac1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7271ec560905270015r4ef815s35a5cf872470b6d6@mail.gmail.com> Dear All, what the elections 2009 has taught all of us is to forget and forgive and life must go on with harmony and not rancour, or negative thoughts. Whoever was with negative thoughts have been negated by the voter from across all political parties.We can positively go towards better society, with little more tolerence in all in the society, living in the past, thoughts of past bad acts will destroy the present and future of our own future generation of its future. With better societal awareness, the citizen today is demanding better governance from the elected, and PM who is honest, must not get trapped into the politics of survival by compulsions of coalition, as, if it happens, the opportunity given will be snatched by voter without even waiting for full five years as all are those who are waiting in the sidewings, will promise exactly that, -- better governance. Regards. Rajen. On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 12:31 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > Pawan, > > For every one instance of assaults on Hindus by Muslims that you > post, someone else may be able to find one, two, three, four > instances of assaults on Muslims by Hindus. And none would be false, > neither your claims, nor theirs. And then you would find more, and > then they would find more, and life on this list would continue to > spiral on to a vulgar exhibitionism of everybody's agony and mutual > hatred. We've been down that road before. Who, after all, has not had > a hard time in the twentieth century? Which identity cannot claim for > itself the mantle of the victim? > > All this would only demonstrate what we know only too well, that > human beings are vile, that religions (all religions, without > exception, and modern ideologies, offer rationalizations for > gratuitous acts of violence). So, what does that achieve ? I think > nothing. > > Can we move on from this, and explore things that are new, that are > surprising, that are discoveries, that extend our appreciation of our > histories instead of trading the same monotonous charges, can we > sometimes locate the occasional highlights that still continue to > shine in the fragile house of the human spirit? > > Or must we remain forever trapped in this cycle of proving who had a > worse twentieth century than whom? Speaking for myself, I have better > things to do than be caught being a spectator to this kind of sado- > masochism of the spirit. I hope I am not the only one who feels this > way. > > Shuddha > > On 27-May-09, at 10:07 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > Sanity and Madness on 13th July, 1931 > > > > The communal pogrom against Kashmiri Hindus and Khatri traders was a > > pre-planned move by the leaders of 13th July agitation and their > > sponsors - the British Political Department. > > > > Hindus became victims of the mad frenzy in Vicharnag, Maharajganj, > > Khankah Mohalla, in Srinagar city and at Shopian and Anantnag towns. > > > > The events which took place in Khankah mohalla reveal an interesting > > pattern. While the members of the majority community displayed strong > > communal passions when they came to attack Pandits, the immediate > > neighbours played a positive role. > > > > Five Pandit families lived in Khankah mohalla, opposite the Kali > > Shrine. These families included three families of Kouls - Ram Nath, > > Nilakanth and Rughnath. They were all cousins. The other two families > > - Niranjan Nath Wali and Dina Nath Wali lived jointly. > > > > Soon after looting Khatri shops in Maharajgunj the big mob turned to > > Khankah Mohalla to attack Kashmiri Hindus. The neighbours of the > > Pandit families - Gh. Mohammad Qalinbaf and Ahad Sakka (water carrier) > > rose to the occasion and decided not to betray their neighbours with > > whom they had been living through generations. At the suggestion of > > these neighbours the Kouls hid themselves in attic storey (Brer Kani) > > of the house. Sakka had asked Kouls to throw some household refuse on > > the verandah and keep windows and doors open to mislead the rioters. > > The Pandits, on hearing about the atrocities in other parts of the > > city were gripped with fear. Ram Nath recalls, "we tied our womenfolk > > with rope lest they escape out of fear. We had also decided to poison > > them to death in case an eventuality of kidnapping/molestation arose". > > > > When looters came, the families of Ahad Sakka and Qalinbaff told them > > that Pandits fled from their home on learning that the mob was on way > > to attack them. To keep rioters in good humour, Sakka and Qalinbaff > > mockingly abused Pandits and succeeded in turning the mob away. The > > mob stood for 25-30 minutes at Kaul's house. > > > > Neighbours of Walis also tried to save Walis but the mob had its way. > > Niranjan Nath Wali was an affluent person. Some people in the mob owed > > him money. They succeeded in instigating the frenzied mob to attack > > Niranjan and loot his property. > > > > After the looters left, Kouls shifted to the house of Ahad Sakka and > > stayed there for three days. This was the fortnight when Hindus > > observe shraddas of their departed near and dear ones. Members of the > > Koul family would stealthily during the night go to their home, > > prepare food and come back. At Sakka's home they took only pears and > > water. > > > > 3 days later Kouls shifted to Chinkral mohalla first and later to > > Sathu Barbarshah where Ramnath's aunt lived. Nilakanth Koul served in > > Police Department. > > > > He shifted his family to police lines. Such was the terror that > > Ramnath's family was brought back to Chinkral Mohalla in a special > > police van, nicknamed by locals as 'Rat Trap'. The Kouls never went > > back to live in the Mohalla where they had lived for centuries. They > > sold their house to Gh. Mohammad Qalinbaf in 1932. This in itself is > > an indicator of the terror created by the events of 13th July. Kashmir > > Sentinel > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- Rajen. From noreply at superflex.net Wed May 27 02:03:30 2009 From: noreply at superflex.net (INFOMAIL) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 22:33:30 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] Today We Don't Use the Word Dollars Message-ID: Hello, Today We Don't Use the Word Dollars WEDNESDAY 27 MAY 2009, 09.00 - 16.30 ANZ Bank, 312 Karangahape Road, Newton, Auckland,New Zealand SUPERFLEX's artwork for One Day Sculpture involves the employees of Auckland's Karangahape Road branch of the ANZ bank. For a single day, Wednesday 27 May 2009, 09.00 - 16.30 all employees of the bank cannot say or use the word 'DOLLARS.' The staff must use other words of their own choice to explain themselves to customers and co-workers. If they break this pact they must pay a fine of $1 into a staff social fund. SUPERFLEX's One Day Sculpture project was conceived for Auckland at the invitation of Brian Butler, former Director of Artspace and produced by Artspace. The artists opted to work with the ANZ bank, asking the bank manager to enter into a legally binding agreement with the group that would affect all its activities. The contract stipulated that the staff at the ANZ bank have to abstain from using the word 'dollars' in all its oral and written communication, externally as well as internally, during banking hours. The agreement concerns customer service, as well as telephone calls and email communication. The contract was signed by the Bank Manager and by SUPERFLEX. The signed contract will be printed and framed and displayed in the staff (cloakroom) during the day! . SUPERFLEX (Bjørnstjerne Christiansen, Jakob Fenger and Rasmus Nielsen) investigate processes by which power dynamics become evident. Their projects do not simply set out to problematize these spheres of interest, but to work with real economic, cultural and political relations and create concrete effects. Through projects engaging with alternative models for the creation, dissemination and maintenance of social and economic organisation such as Copyshop, Guarana Power, Rebranding Denmark and Free Beer. SUPERFLEX have become involved in several legal disputes, as well as suffering prohibition orders and police raids, relating to their artistic use of commercial signs and symbols. However, finding that the restrictions placed on their work someti! mes led to unexpectedly interesting results, SUPERFLEX began to explore the productive potential of prohibition and conceived a series of projects structured to impose regulations on others. For more info: http://www.onedaysculpture.org.nz -- If you do not want to receive any more newsletters, this link To update your preferences and to unsubscribe visit this link Forward a Message to Someone this link -- www.superflex.net From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed May 27 16:35:42 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 16:35:42 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Massacres - Part 3 In-Reply-To: References: <6b79f1a70905262137h5ec0540eq5efa8bb79615fac1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70905270405l33078d3bs8c6092c996f440ee@mail.gmail.com> Dear Shuddha, I agree that all bitter things must come to an end . However my intention is not to let things remain bitter for ever. I am just educating the members about History , since Kashmir has been something which has been very passionately discussed in this forum. Orzuv Pawan On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 12:31 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > Pawan, > For every one instance of assaults on Hindus by Muslims that you post, > someone else may be able to find one, two, three, four instances of assaults > on Muslims by Hindus. And none would be false, neither your claims, nor > theirs. And then you would find more, and then they would find more, and > life on this list would continue to spiral on to a vulgar exhibitionism of > everybody's agony and mutual hatred. We've been down that road before. Who, > after all, has not had a hard time in the twentieth century? Which identity > cannot claim for itself the mantle of the victim? > All this would only demonstrate what we know only too well, that human > beings are vile, that religions (all religions, without exception, and > modern ideologies, offer rationalizations for gratuitous acts of violence). > So, what does that achieve ? I think nothing. > Can we move on from this, and explore things that are new, that are > surprising, that are discoveries, that extend our appreciation of our > histories instead of trading the same monotonous charges, can we sometimes > locate the occasional highlights that still continue to shine in the fragile > house of the human spirit? > Or must we remain forever trapped in this cycle of proving who had a worse > twentieth century than whom? Speaking for myself, I have better things to do > than be caught being a spectator to this kind of sado-masochism of the > spirit. I hope I am not the only one who feels this way. > Shuddha > On 27-May-09, at 10:07 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > > Sanity and Madness on 13th July, 1931 > The communal pogrom against Kashmiri Hindus and Khatri traders was a > pre-planned move by the leaders of 13th July agitation and their > sponsors - the British Political Department. > Hindus became victims of the mad frenzy in Vicharnag, Maharajganj, > Khankah Mohalla, in Srinagar city and at Shopian and Anantnag towns. > The events which took place in Khankah mohalla reveal an interesting > pattern. While the members of the majority community displayed strong > communal passions when they came to attack Pandits, the immediate > neighbours played a positive role. > Five Pandit families lived in Khankah mohalla, opposite the Kali > Shrine. These families included three families of Kouls - Ram Nath, > Nilakanth and Rughnath. They were all cousins. The other two families > - Niranjan Nath Wali and Dina Nath Wali lived jointly. > Soon after looting Khatri shops in Maharajgunj the big mob turned to > Khankah Mohalla to attack Kashmiri Hindus. The neighbours of the > Pandit families - Gh. Mohammad Qalinbaf and Ahad Sakka (water carrier) > rose to the occasion and decided not to betray their neighbours with > whom they had been living through generations. At the suggestion of > these neighbours the Kouls hid themselves in attic storey (Brer Kani) > of the house. Sakka had asked Kouls to throw some household refuse on > the verandah and keep windows and doors open to mislead the rioters. > The Pandits, on hearing about the atrocities in other parts of the > city were gripped with fear. Ram Nath recalls, "we tied our womenfolk > with rope lest they escape out of fear. We had also decided to poison > them to death in case an eventuality of kidnapping/molestation arose". > When looters came, the families of Ahad Sakka and Qalinbaff told them > that Pandits fled from their home on learning that the mob was on way > to attack them. To keep rioters in good humour, Sakka and Qalinbaff > mockingly abused Pandits and succeeded in turning the mob away. The > mob stood for 25-30 minutes at Kaul's house. > Neighbours of Walis also tried to save Walis but the mob had its way. > Niranjan Nath Wali was an affluent person. Some people in the mob owed > him money. They succeeded in instigating the frenzied mob to attack > Niranjan and loot his property. > After the looters left, Kouls shifted to the house of Ahad Sakka and > stayed there for three days. This was the fortnight when Hindus > observe shraddas of their departed near and dear ones. Members of the > Koul family would stealthily during the night go to their home, > prepare food and come back. At Sakka's home they took only pears and > water. > 3 days later Kouls shifted to Chinkral mohalla first and later to > Sathu Barbarshah where Ramnath's aunt lived. Nilakanth Koul served in > Police Department. > He shifted his family to police lines. Such was the terror that > Ramnath's family was brought back to Chinkral Mohalla in a special > police van, nicknamed by locals as 'Rat Trap'. The Kouls never went > back to live in the Mohalla where they had lived for centuries. They > sold their house to Gh. Mohammad Qalinbaf in 1932. This in itself is > an indicator of the terror created by the events of 13th July. Kashmir > Sentinel > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed May 27 17:43:38 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 05:13:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Indian elections: how to woo Muslims to vote for you Message-ID: <859060.36890.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Yousuf   The refrain you quoted "Hamari qaum mein unity nahi hai" is, as you said, used by every community. It is a convienient way of shirking individual introspection, accountability and participation. It is also the acknowledgement of the 'polarization' and at the same time dismissing it. To be used in either way as required.   Another similar whine is "We do not have a Leadership".   Is our Democracy largely built on polarization and herding? Yes it is. Does that make it very meaningful as you rightly wonder ? No it does not.   That is why I describe our present "Democratic" first-past-the-post-is-the-winner system as being a convoluted interpretation of and in fact a mockery of "Democracy". This system feeds on and feeds off the "polarization and herding".   My mention of "Muslims set themselves apart as a group" was as a continuation of the "Muslims" being wooed Posters. In any case, as I wrote earlier "  This is not unique to Muslims, the same is done to and done by other 'groups' based on religion, caste etc."   Muslims do find themselves specially focussed upon at election time. The simple reason for that is the numbers. Political parties try to endow all of them with a singular "Muslim Identity" using Babri and Gujarat as homogenising catalysts for that identity. The enemy could be, sorry, the enemy is BJP and if required Mayawati speaking from a lectern draped with the BJP's Lotus flag. At another time or at another place it could be the Congress.   So I agree with you when you ask "why can't it be the other way around". It is the other way around too. And, it is not unique to "Muslims as a group".     Kshmendra   --- On Tue, 5/26/09, Yousuf wrote: From: Yousuf Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian elections: how to woo Muslims to vote for you To: "Kshmendra Kaul" Cc: "Sarai reader list" Date: Tuesday, May 26, 2009, 9:52 PM Dear Kshmendra Its good that you put my phrase about "lack of political leadership" within quotes - I should have done that in the original mail, since I am not the one complaining about the "lack" - I am only comparing it with the religious leadership (which btw is no different from the political one). I'm not sure if its so easy to say that "Muslims themselves" set them apart as a community, and thus get wooed during the elections (why can't it be the other way around?). I'm not even sure if one can woo the Muslims of Saharanpur in the same manner as those of Meerut. But somehow the political parties (since probably 1947) have been imagining Muslims to be a monolithic vote ATM, and help in the process of "ghettoization", often incorporating the religious leaders and so on. Talking of "ghettoization" (I hate that word), I've often heard another vague but very popular term: UNITY. "Hamari qaum mein unity nahin hai" (our community is not united). And the people of each community believe that the "other" community is stronger because "they are united while we are not." And this is not a Muslim phenomena - I have heard this exact sentence in roadside conversations among members of many communities. Obviously, the unity here doesn't mean "harmony"; it simply means polarization according to ideology. I am yet to come across in India a sustained example of harmony between differing ideologies, rather than a polarization. And that makes us wonder how meaningful is our democracy any way if it is built largely on polarization and herding. Yousuf --- On Tue, 5/26/09, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > From: Kshmendra Kaul > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian elections: how to woo Muslims to vote for you > To: "Yousuf" > Cc: "Sarai reader list" > Date: Tuesday, May 26, 2009, 7:15 PM > Dear Yousuf >   > It should not be surprising that political parties > aggresively woo and try to appease Muslims at the time of > elections. >   > For various reasons, the "Collective Muslim > Identity" is one which is furthered by Muslims > themselves. If Muslims set themselves apart as a group then > they will be wooed as a group in a manner that the suitors > think will best engage their attention and favour (example > Babri and Gujarat). >   > It is quite likely that given the contours of 1947- > partition, special attention needed to be paid to Muslims so > as to reassure them of their rightful and equal space in a > Secular India. This might have led to the creation > of  the first Political Ghettos of Muslims. These > getting solidified has both social and political > reasons and perhaps even compulsions. >   > When you or anyone else talks about "lack of > effective political leader in the community", you > automatically are subscribing to and feeding the political > ghettoisation of Muslims. >   > This is not unique to Muslims, the same is done to and > done by other 'groups' based on religion, caste > etc. >   > The caste based politics amongst Hindus is notorious > enough but even the Sikhs have succumbed to it. >   > Posters are unlikely to reflect it but, on the > ground, even amongst the Muslims sub-groups are > identified and wooed depending (for example) if the Shias > are voters in greater numbers or Sunnis. >   > In the case of Muslims however, perhaps due to the > most prominent 'other' political contender being the > BJP, appealing to 'All Muslims' is the easy path to > take for presenting a political party as a 'saviour of > Muslims'. >   > Kshmendra >     > > --- On Tue, 5/26/09, Yousuf > wrote: > > > From: Yousuf > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian elections: how to woo > Muslims to vote for you > To: "Tasveer Ghar" , > "Taha Mehmood" > <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> > Cc: "Sarai reader list" > , "Tasveer Ghar > group" > Date: Tuesday, May 26, 2009, 1:06 PM > > > > Dear Taha, Kshmendra and others > Thanks for your comments and questions. This image gallery > is really a work-in-progress, and its a tip of the iceberg > from what one notices in Urdu press. I have been surveying > Urdu newspaper off-and-on and I was surprised to see the > quantity and diversity of the election posters. Here are > some random comments on your questions: > > First of all, this survey is limited to only a handful of > Urdu newspapers published from Delhi and UP which cater to > some districts of western UP (the region that had the > fiercest competition between Mulayam, Mayawati, Congress, > BJP). The reach and impact of those papers is yet to be > studied, since many of them are temporary publications. I > also haven't looked in detail at the Hindi newspapers or > the local TV shows (or local graffiti, wall posters) to make > a comparison. But the use of Urdu newspapers in this manner > does reveal a lot about how they become a via >  media to cater to a community. Maybe all Muslims in > Delhi/UP don't read Urdu, but the news certainly > trickles down through these papers. The tone of the ads by > all 4 parties sounds like a fish market where each candidate > is showing how he/she is better for the Muslims and how the > other party has always ditched the community. > > Yes the use of religious leaders/clergy (for canvassing) is > still an effective tool - mainly because the imams and pir > sahebs (from Sufi shrines) do hold an authority over large > sections of local population, probably due to a lack of > effective political leader in the community. But it is no > longer a situation where only one big leader (like the imam > Bukhari could hold his sway nationwide). And this may not be > a new phenomena - there is a long history of the political > impact of religious clergy on the community. But what is > worth studying (and also disturbing) is how these ads for > Muslims seldom talk about nation-building or >  nationhood (which you see in the mainstream BJP ads), but > only restrict Muslims to their immediate concerns of Babri > and Gujarat etc. > > Babri mosque and Gujarat pogrom are used ferociously by all > parties (except BJP) to woo Muslims in these ads, but I am > not sure if the readers/voters are so stupid that they > can't see the ludicrousness of how two or more ads on > the same newspaper page are using the same agenda to hit at > the other party/candidate. Its funny how the newspaper could > even sell the adjacent ad space to 3 different parties who > are attacking each other. > > I haven't come across any example so far of > "appeasing" of other communities this way by all > parties - although the BJP did use it in a reverse way to > attack the Congress in the earlier Delhi elections, by > listing out its various evils including the > "mushrooming of Batla Houses" in Delhi, if you > remember that ad. > > More later probably. > > Yousuf > > > --- On Mon, >  5/25/09, Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> > wrote: > > > From: Taha Mehmood <2tahamehmood at googlemail.com> > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Indian elections: how to > woo Muslims to vote for you > > To: "Tasveer Ghar" > > Cc: "Sarai reader list" > > Date: Monday, May 25, 2009, 4:52 PM > > If we assume that the elections > > posters were intended to appeal >  to > > Muslims of North India, then a survey of posters > throws up > > some > > questions- > > > > 1. Do all Muslims of North India know how to read > Urdu? If > > no, then- > > 2. Why do political parties equate Muslims=Urdu > speaking? > > 3. Do all Muslims of North India always think of > Gujarat as > > an assault > > on their collective religious identity all the time, > > especially when > > they are about to vote? > > 4. Just like in earlier times, Imam Bukhari's > fatwa to vote > > for > > erstwhile Janta dal was assumed to be the ultimate > clarion > > call to > > North Indian Muslims, this time too, it appears, as > if, the > > stereotype > > of Indian voters who happen to follow Islam, robs them > from > > any agency > > to think and act on their own. I wonder why is an > appeal > > from > > authority is such a big deal in political > communication? > > 5. I wonder >  if posters issued by political parties to > > appeal to > > followers of other religions like Sikhism, Jainism, > > Buddhism or those > > Indian voters who constitute a strategic vote bank > follow a > > similar > > trend? > > > > Regards > > > > Taha > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > > city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > >       > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > >        From rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com Wed May 27 20:00:11 2009 From: rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com (Rakesh Iyer) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 20:00:11 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Election verdict 2009 Message-ID: Dear all Since we have had discussions on the Verdict 2009, I think it would be better off to look at some articles published in the leading journal of India, the Economic and Political Weekly (EPW). I hope we can discuss this article and try to see if we can arrive at certain conclusions instead of arriving at media generated large based verdicts. At the outset, I also wish to state that I differ from the view of the article in one particular aspect, the NREGA. I believe the act is revolutionary and would have helped the Congress much in UP in particular because the implementation of the NREGA was quite bad in UP. Similarly it could have helped the BJP in MP and the Congress in Rajasthan as wel to a certain extent. Of course, I may be wrong and would be quite happy to be proved so. Hope you all enjoy the article. Regards Rakesh *May 23, 2009 Economic & Political Weekly EPW may 23, 2009 vol xliv no 21 5 * *Verdict 2009: Myths and Hypotheses * The verdict demands a reflective understanding of why voters in different states voted as they did.It has been a week since the votes of the month-long elections to the 15th Lok Sabha were counted and yet we remain far from possessing a coherent understanding of Verdict 2009. The only certainties are the results themselves: the triumph of the United Progressive Alliance (UPA), the dramatic surge of the Congress Party’s tally of seats in the lower house of Parliament, the convincing defeat of the National Democratic Alliance (NDA), the rout of the Left and the decimation of the Third/Fourth Fronts.Rather than contribute to the cacophony of voices in the media, on television in particular, it may be appropriate, for now, to refrain from making sweeping generalisations. It may be more useful instead to dwell on the outcome, discuss what the verdict does not mean and very tentatively offer multiple hypotheses. A period of reflection and a study of the voting patterns could lead to a more meaningful theorisation of what the verdict does mean. That the NDA was fortunately denied a second opportunity to govern from New Delhi was not a surprise in itself. Though most observers did not expect any pre-poll alliance to get a majority, it was more or less certain that the UPA would emerge ahead of the rest. The surprise that does not lend itself to simple explanations is the UPA achieving a near-majority on its own and the astonishing performance of the Congress. This has been converted in the age of the two-second sound bite into a “spectacular” result. But such an assessment has little going for it. Since 1967, the Indian electorate has rarely if ever ceased to shock the pundit and the pollster, either in the outcome of the Lok Sabha elections or in the scale of victory of one or the other party. It would take just a moment’s reflection to remember that the surprise in Verdict 2009 is far less than the stunning outcomes in Verdicts 1971, 1977 and 2004, and the triumph of the victorious was far greater in Verdicts 1980 and 1984. Many unexpected outcomes of the past have been, in retrospect, easy to explain; not so Verdict 2009 which has thrown up both a surprise and complex regional patterns. The many myths that have already emerged about the results reflect little more than the predilections and desires of the commentators who make them. This is only to be expected. When in 2004, those who saw value in the “India Shining” message were caught on the back foot, they were quick to coin the theory of “rising aspirations” – i e, the people of India wanted to enjoy an even better life than they did under the NDA! If that was bizarre, one theory to explain 2009, that India has no place for the “politics of extremism” (i e, for either the Hindutva groups or the Left) is only a shade less fanciful. And if over a decade, “anti-incumbency” used to be a favourite and shallow explanation of all electoral outcomes, the new and equally meaningless generalisation of the results of the 2009 elections is that “performing governments” are now being rewarded. Politics is not only about electoral battles and politics is not reflected solely in the outcome of elections. Yet, those who are uncomfortable with the influence of caste in contemporary politics have been quick to announce the end of identity as a factor of importance in Indian elections, all because of the less than expected gains for the Bahujan Samaj Party (BSP). Those who are uncomfortable with the idea of coalitions have been equally quick to see in the 2009 resurgence of the Congress the return of the bipolar/single party era. Those who prefer the simplicity of dealing with personalities are quite willing to see Rahul Gandhi as the new saviour of the Congress and India – investing in this fourth generation member of the Nehru-Gandhi family all the attributes of the three previous prime ministers from the family. It does not take much analysis to reject these myths. First, the Congress has no doubt increased its tally in the Lok Sabha very impressively, from 145 to 206. But in spite of contesting more seats this time (440 in 2009 versus 417 in 2004) its vote share has increased by barely 2 percentage points. (Tables 1 and 2 on pages 9 and 10 of this issue present detailed information on vote shares in the past two elections.) The Congress seat tally may be the highest in the five parliamentary elections after 1991, but its vote share is far from the 40% plus it routinely used to register until the late 1970s. The Congress was able to make a large increase in votes polled in the two most populous states (Bihar and Uttar Pradesh), but take away those increases and its share in the rest of the country has remained more or less the same. Second, there is no sign of a return to national parties holding sway, for if we look at the support of the two largest parties, the Congress and the BJP, they contested many more seats (873 versus 781) and yet saw their share of all-India votes fall by 1.3 percentage points. Third and correspondingly, some of the regional parties like the Rashtriya Janata Dal (rJD) and the Janata Dal (Secular) certainly saw their support dwindle, but the large increase in voting for others like the Biju Janata Dal (BJD) makes any generalisation about the future of regional parties too simplistic to stand scrutiny. Fourth, the votes polled by certain major parties that have mobilised on the basis of identity have increased, not decreased. The BSP, for instance, has increased its vote share (6.2% versus 5.3%), though it must be noted that there has been a decline in support for the party in Uttar Pradesh since the 2007 assembly elections and it did contest more Lok Sabha seats in 2009 (500 versus 435). Fifth, Rahul Gandhi should take the credit for the Congress in UP winning the largest number of seats in a quarter of century, but not all his big bets have paid off. The decision not to kow-tow to the Samajwadi Party in UP resulted in spectacular gains, but its refusal to go along with the RJD in Bihar led to an equally spectacular loss. In any case in both UP and Bihar, the Congress decision to go alone was forced on the party at the last minute and was not born of any sagacity or long-term commitment. What all the contra-trends show is not that one story is more complete than the other, but that perhaps only all of them together can tell the complete story. In the aggregate and in most states, voters have leaned towards the Congress in the 2009 elections, but that is as yet more of a nudge than a shift. The regional and identity-based parties have suffered here and there, but they have also gained in strength elsewhere. In other words, state and regional factors may have played a role in determining the 2009 outcome as well, even if the impact has been moderated by the strong showing of one “national” party in many states. None of this should be surprising. Parliamentary politics in India as influenced by one leader of one party – as it was by Jawaharlal Nehru and Indira Gandhi – ended a quarter of a century ago. Democracy in the country is now the story of individual regions/castes/classes/groups and their alliances jostling to assert themselves. All that will not disappear with one election. It may take a lot more for the Congress to permanently reverse the decline in its fortunes as a “national” party, a process that began in the late 1980s. The interesting aspect of the Congress triumph – yes, the story of Elections 2009 is more the triumph of the Congress than of the UPA – is that the state-level factors and fragmentation on account of identity may have actually helped the party. The victory of the Congress in both the assembly and the parliamentary elections in Andhra Pradesh appears to have been boosted by the split in voting occasioned by the new regional/caste outfit, the Praja Rajyam Party. Yet, the same vote split did not help everywhere – not in Bihar, Karnataka and, especially not in Orissa, where the Congress was unable to capitalise on the BJD-BJP split. This diversity of outcomes perhaps cannot be understood with a single “national” explanation. “National” factors in any case do not help us understand why the Congress won convincingly in certain regions and did poorly elsewhere. Consider, the “NREGA” factor (the introduction of the employment guarantee) which has been suggested as one major reason – along with the spending on welfare and social sector programmes such as the Bharat Nirman and National Rural Health Mission – for the major gains by the Congress. Possibly. But we have already forgotten the inflation factor that was expected to hurt the Congress/UPA in Elections 2009. Election after election has shown that if there is one sure determinant of voting decisions it is high inflation. And over the past year – at a time when growth has also slowed both in rural and urban India – the burden of inflation has been heavy. The official figures on wholesale prices may show that inflation has ceased to be a problem and that we are closer to a deflationary rather than inflationary situation, but (a) inflationary pressures on wholesale prices have eased only over the past six months, (b) annual consumer price inflation remains close to double digits, and (c) even in the wholesale price basket, the prices of cereals and food items continue to rise. Why did all this not neutralise the NREGA effect? In the end we may have to consider another factor that could have influenced Verdict 2009. That this was an election that the NDA lost rather than the UPA won. It may not have been any positive message of the UPA/Congress that drew support to the alliance in many states. It may have been the refusal of voters to endorse the hate politics of the BJP and a surprisingly incompetent election campaign that together spelt doom for the NDA. From cubbykabi at yahoo.com Thu May 28 09:44:30 2009 From: cubbykabi at yahoo.com (kabi cubby sherman) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 09:44:30 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] queer azaadi march 2008 video posted Message-ID: <822320.64525.qm@web94706.mail.in2.yahoo.com> apologies for cross postings the loudandproudbombay YouTube channel has just posted the video from the first Queer Azaadi March in Mumbai that was held on 16 August 2008. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5jWgTMfr44 This video captures the excitement and celebration and joy and community of this fantastic event. Big thanks to Subuhi Jiwani for shooting and editing it. Planning has started for QAM 2009 which will be 16 August. visit http://queerazaadi.wordpress.com/ for information as it becomes available. please distribute. a luta continua kabi Meter Down - काली पीली की कहानी blog: http://meterdown.wordpress.com podcast: http://feeds2.feedburner..com/meterdown Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter http://beta.cricket.yahoo.com From anivar.aravind at gmail.com Thu May 28 12:57:42 2009 From: anivar.aravind at gmail.com (Anivar Aravind) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 12:57:42 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] GREETINGS FROM BASAGUDA Message-ID: <35f96d470905280027p4bb8e42em6707c456892bb108@mail.gmail.com> GREETINGS FROM BASAGUDA by Javed Iqbal Villagers who escaped the Maoist-Salwa Judum conflict return to their homes after three years and the Vanvasi Chetna Ashram which has helped them come back is under attack from the Raman Singh government. Non-violent activist it seems has no future in Chhatisgarh under the current regime. Javed Iqbal reports on the changing fortunes of Bastar’s tribal communities caught between the Maoists and the State. http://www.binayaksen.net/2009/05/greetings-from-basaguda/ -- "The resources of the world are for us all to share. Let us affirm our faith in that common cause" - Dr. Ilina Sen From ish at sarai.net Thu May 28 13:35:37 2009 From: ish at sarai.net (ish at sarai.net) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 13:35:37 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Sound Reasons t0 : Release party and Listening session Message-ID: 'Sound Reasons' Listening session and launch Would like to to invite all those sonically inclined for a Listening Session and the release party of 'Sound Reasons t0' followed up by live and DJ sets by Audio Pervert and ISh . We will also showcase works by monoton, diF, SoundSkill,edGeCut, 4th world Orchestra and da-Saz. The Sound Reasons CDs will be Available at the Venue The Sonic Sessions will start from 7pm onwards on Saturday 30 may, 2009 (at) Sarai, 29 Rajpur Road, Civil Lines read more in detail and listen in at http://soundreasons.in Sound reasons 't0' +++++ This compilation has been put together to linearly construct 'sonic spaces' we inhabit, and the moods these sounds subject us to. The omnipresent nature of sound involves us in a continuous engagement with the objective world; 'in music' we connect to the subjective self and the sonic universe that surrounds us. It is via these two perceptions that these tracks have been woven together, using field recordings and musical composition, where one suggests and leads the other. Compiled by ISh and produced at the Sarai media lab best ISh From jeebesh at sarai.net Thu May 28 16:18:47 2009 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 16:18:47 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Firing in Corporations in India Message-ID: <9474DEA9-31CC-40DD-9B47-FE74B4C44EC7@sarai.net> dear all, Got this from a friend and thought would be good to share. best Jeebesh "Subject: links to infy firing "these are not posts by disgruntled employees, but the reality of corporate india....we are meeting lots of youngsters who are laid off, The smaller companies are being more gracious about it.The big ones are not laying off but making people resign forcefully by blackmailing them and saying that they will be terminated (on a false charge)and will get bad references from the company." http://layofftracker.blogspot.com/2009/04/tip-infosys-firing-inside-story.html From jeebesh at sarai.net Thu May 28 16:46:10 2009 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 16:46:10 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] edited man Message-ID: We found the seated figure of a man in somebody's storage space. We found him sitting and with what sees to us to be like a startled look on his face. We have been wondering what would it mean to work towards him acquire a life, a philosophy, tastes, passions, a repertoire of sentiments, a list of favourite books, songs, movies and secret desires, ever since we found him We invite you to look carefully at his image, and respond, with a brief text, anything from an epigram to a paragraph or a page, or a series drawings, or an essay, or a fiction, or an idea for an art work, or a story, or a poem, or a song, or a quote, or an anecdote, or a travel dairy notation, or a bibliography, or a joke, or another image, or a reference to other works, or all of the above or something else. You could even make a list of provisions that you think he might need, books and texts you might want him to read, music that you might want him to listen to, or things that you might want him to take along as he makes his way in the world. You can also choose to respond in a completely tangential and oblique way, if you so wish, bypassing our sense of who he is, and communicating directly with the figure and what he represents to you. We would like to gather your responses into a book that we want to make as an accompaniment to the work that we will produce in the autumn this year. Please send us your response by 31st July. Warm greetings Raqs Media Collective June, 2009 From indersalim at gmail.com Fri May 29 00:10:12 2009 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 00:10:12 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Massacres - Part 3 In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70905270405l33078d3bs8c6092c996f440ee@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70905262137h5ec0540eq5efa8bb79615fac1@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70905270405l33078d3bs8c6092c996f440ee@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70905281140l74b447dct4d646fc585c49348@mail.gmail.com> Whenever i happen to visit some old heritage site, i move my hands on the texture of its stones more intimately than i see its form. I do it so effortlessly, but i also love to see its damaged portions, some plants coming out and birds living inside i guess, to contemplate on form only, beyond a point , is always misleading, i believe... The form, perhaps, tells me its religion , but texture tells me the pain and death of the ordinary people who were used to build it. So, reading history too suggests me something different, always. The words which are not there, is perhaps the texture which we often miss out as and when we see a monument. perhaps, the words which could not make it while history was being written would always contain the overwhelming part of the pain and sadness of that past, i believe.... so, i guess, any history, which we happen to read has a space for that hidden to surface on the layers of meaning if we let some other readings of history to interfere with our conventional ways of reading history. i am vague , i know...but not out of place... To those who are angry because of a thousand year old insult to their predecessors is something very absurd here, because the reading of text was direct. Perhaps, we need to marry each word of history to sleep with our respective sceptic inward before a meaning is extracted: a love child if we are not direct to cut short, i remember, even Lord Krishana, who benefited much from Kurukshtera of Mahabarata, sternly admonished Droupdi ( the wife of 5 pandava princes ) for pushing the idea of war to settle scores with Kauravas for her personal revenge, which he said was wrong in any case Krishna reminded her that War is too painful a thing and will drown her open protest hair in the river of blood. That indeed happened and there was more pain in revenge than in the forgetting the bad reading of history, say personal with love is On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 4:35 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Dear Shuddha, > > I agree that all bitter things must come to an end . However my > intention is not to let things remain bitter for ever. > > I am just educating the members about History , since Kashmir has been > something which has been very passionately discussed in this forum. > > Orzuv > > Pawan > > On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 12:31 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta > wrote: >> Pawan, >> For every one instance of assaults on Hindus by Muslims that you post, >> someone else may be able to find one, two, three, four instances of assaults >> on Muslims by Hindus. And none would be false, neither your claims, nor >> theirs. And then you would find more, and then they would find more, and >> life on this list would continue to spiral on to a vulgar exhibitionism of >> everybody's agony and mutual hatred. We've been down that road before. Who, >> after all, has not had a hard time in the twentieth century? Which identity >> cannot claim for itself the mantle of the victim? >> All this would only demonstrate what we know only too well, that human >> beings are vile, that religions (all religions, without exception, and >> modern ideologies, offer rationalizations for gratuitous acts of violence). >> So, what does that achieve ? I think nothing. >> Can we move on from this, and explore things that are new, that are >> surprising, that are discoveries, that extend our appreciation of our >> histories instead of trading the same monotonous charges, can we sometimes >> locate the occasional highlights that still continue to shine in the fragile >> house of the human spirit? >> Or must we remain forever trapped in this cycle of proving who had a worse >> twentieth century than whom? Speaking for myself, I have better things to do >> than be caught being a spectator to this kind of sado-masochism of the >> spirit. I hope I am not the only one who feels this way. >> Shuddha >> On 27-May-09, at 10:07 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: >> >> Sanity and Madness on 13th July, 1931 >> The communal pogrom against Kashmiri Hindus and Khatri traders was a >> pre-planned move by the leaders of 13th July agitation and their >> sponsors - the British Political Department. >> Hindus became victims of the mad frenzy in Vicharnag, Maharajganj, >> Khankah Mohalla, in Srinagar city and at Shopian and Anantnag towns. >> The events which took place in Khankah mohalla reveal an interesting >> pattern. While the members of the majority community displayed strong >> communal passions when they came to attack Pandits, the immediate >> neighbours played a positive role. >> Five Pandit families lived in Khankah mohalla, opposite the Kali >> Shrine. These families included three families of Kouls - Ram Nath, >> Nilakanth and Rughnath. They were all cousins. The other two families >> - Niranjan Nath Wali and Dina Nath Wali lived jointly. >> Soon after looting Khatri shops in Maharajgunj the big mob turned to >> Khankah Mohalla to attack Kashmiri Hindus. The neighbours of the >> Pandit families - Gh. Mohammad Qalinbaf and Ahad Sakka (water carrier) >> rose to the occasion and decided not to betray their neighbours with >> whom they had been living through generations. At the suggestion of >> these neighbours the Kouls hid themselves in attic storey (Brer Kani) >> of the house. Sakka had asked Kouls to throw some household refuse on >> the verandah and keep windows and doors open to mislead the rioters. >> The Pandits, on hearing about the atrocities in other parts of the >> city were gripped with fear. Ram Nath recalls, "we tied our womenfolk >> with rope lest they escape out of fear. We had also decided to poison >> them to death in case an eventuality of kidnapping/molestation arose". >> When looters came, the families of Ahad Sakka and Qalinbaff told them >> that Pandits fled from their home on learning that the mob was on way >> to attack them. To keep rioters in good humour, Sakka and Qalinbaff >> mockingly abused Pandits and succeeded in turning the mob away. The >> mob stood for 25-30 minutes at Kaul's house. >> Neighbours of Walis also tried to save Walis but the mob had its way. >> Niranjan Nath Wali was an affluent person. Some people in the mob owed >> him money. They succeeded in instigating the frenzied mob to attack >> Niranjan and loot his property. >> After the looters left, Kouls shifted to the house of Ahad Sakka and >> stayed there for three days. This was the fortnight when Hindus >> observe shraddas of their departed near and dear ones. Members of the >> Koul family would stealthily during the night go to their home, >> prepare food and come back. At Sakka's home they took only pears and >> water. >> 3 days later Kouls shifted to Chinkral mohalla first and later to >> Sathu Barbarshah where Ramnath's aunt lived. Nilakanth Koul served in >> Police Department. >> He shifted his family to police lines. Such was the terror that >> Ramnath's family was brought back to Chinkral Mohalla in a special >> police van, nicknamed by locals as 'Rat Trap'. The Kouls never went >> back to live in the Mohalla where they had lived for centuries. They >> sold their house to Gh. Mohammad Qalinbaf in 1932. This in itself is >> an indicator of the terror created by the events of 13th July. Kashmir >> Sentinel >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe >> in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >> Raqs Media Collective >> shuddha at sarai.net >> www.sarai.net >> www.raqsmediacollective.net >> >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From pawan.durani at gmail.com Fri May 29 00:28:36 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 00:28:36 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Massacres - Part 3 In-Reply-To: <47e122a70905281140l74b447dct4d646fc585c49348@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70905262137h5ec0540eq5efa8bb79615fac1@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70905270405l33078d3bs8c6092c996f440ee@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70905281140l74b447dct4d646fc585c49348@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70905281158k9fc35e3v6906cb63b193a0b6@mail.gmail.com> I agree.... But do you apply the same yardstick when you discuss Gujarat ? Why does pain of hindu suffering in Kashmir from hand of Islamic fanatics unneverve you ? Are you one of those sickulars ? Just a question ???????????????????? Warm regards Pawan Durani On 5/29/09, Inder Salim wrote: > Whenever i happen to visit some old heritage site, i move my hands on > the texture of its stones more intimately than i see its form. I do it > so effortlessly, but i also love to see its damaged portions, some > plants coming out and birds living inside > i guess, to contemplate on form only, beyond a point , is always > misleading, i believe... > > The form, perhaps, tells me its religion , but texture tells me the > pain and death of the ordinary people who were used to build it. > > So, reading history too suggests me something different, always. The > words which are not there, is perhaps the texture which we often miss > out as and when we see a monument. > > perhaps, the words which could not make it while history was being > written would always contain the overwhelming part of the pain and > sadness of that past, i believe.... > > so, i guess, any history, which we happen to read has a space for that > hidden to surface on the layers of meaning if we let some other > readings of history to interfere with our conventional ways of > reading history. i am vague , i know...but not out of place... > > To those who are angry because of a thousand year old insult to their > predecessors is something very absurd here, because the reading of > text was direct. Perhaps, we need to marry each word of history to > sleep with our respective sceptic inward before a meaning is > extracted: a love child if we are not direct > > to cut short, i remember, even Lord Krishana, who benefited much from > Kurukshtera of Mahabarata, sternly admonished Droupdi ( the wife of 5 > pandava princes ) for pushing the idea of war to settle scores with > Kauravas for her personal revenge, which he said was wrong in any case > > Krishna reminded her that War is too painful a thing and will drown > her open protest hair in the river of blood. That indeed happened and > there was more pain in revenge than in the forgetting the bad reading > of history, say personal > > > with love > is > > > On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 4:35 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > > Dear Shuddha, > > > > I agree that all bitter things must come to an end . However my > > intention is not to let things remain bitter for ever. > > > > I am just educating the members about History , since Kashmir has been > > something which has been very passionately discussed in this forum. > > > > Orzuv > > > > Pawan > > > > On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 12:31 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > wrote: > >> Pawan, > >> For every one instance of assaults on Hindus by Muslims that you post, > >> someone else may be able to find one, two, three, four instances of assaults > >> on Muslims by Hindus. And none would be false, neither your claims, nor > >> theirs. And then you would find more, and then they would find more, and > >> life on this list would continue to spiral on to a vulgar exhibitionism of > >> everybody's agony and mutual hatred. We've been down that road before. Who, > >> after all, has not had a hard time in the twentieth century? Which identity > >> cannot claim for itself the mantle of the victim? > >> All this would only demonstrate what we know only too well, that human > >> beings are vile, that religions (all religions, without exception, and > >> modern ideologies, offer rationalizations for gratuitous acts of violence). > >> So, what does that achieve ? I think nothing. > >> Can we move on from this, and explore things that are new, that are > >> surprising, that are discoveries, that extend our appreciation of our > >> histories instead of trading the same monotonous charges, can we sometimes > >> locate the occasional highlights that still continue to shine in the fragile > >> house of the human spirit? > >> Or must we remain forever trapped in this cycle of proving who had a worse > >> twentieth century than whom? Speaking for myself, I have better things to do > >> than be caught being a spectator to this kind of sado-masochism of the > >> spirit. I hope I am not the only one who feels this way. > >> Shuddha > >> On 27-May-09, at 10:07 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > >> > >> Sanity and Madness on 13th July, 1931 > >> The communal pogrom against Kashmiri Hindus and Khatri traders was a > >> pre-planned move by the leaders of 13th July agitation and their > >> sponsors - the British Political Department. > >> Hindus became victims of the mad frenzy in Vicharnag, Maharajganj, > >> Khankah Mohalla, in Srinagar city and at Shopian and Anantnag towns. > >> The events which took place in Khankah mohalla reveal an interesting > >> pattern. While the members of the majority community displayed strong > >> communal passions when they came to attack Pandits, the immediate > >> neighbours played a positive role. > >> Five Pandit families lived in Khankah mohalla, opposite the Kali > >> Shrine. These families included three families of Kouls - Ram Nath, > >> Nilakanth and Rughnath. They were all cousins. The other two families > >> - Niranjan Nath Wali and Dina Nath Wali lived jointly. > >> Soon after looting Khatri shops in Maharajgunj the big mob turned to > >> Khankah Mohalla to attack Kashmiri Hindus. The neighbours of the > >> Pandit families - Gh. Mohammad Qalinbaf and Ahad Sakka (water carrier) > >> rose to the occasion and decided not to betray their neighbours with > >> whom they had been living through generations. At the suggestion of > >> these neighbours the Kouls hid themselves in attic storey (Brer Kani) > >> of the house. Sakka had asked Kouls to throw some household refuse on > >> the verandah and keep windows and doors open to mislead the rioters. > >> The Pandits, on hearing about the atrocities in other parts of the > >> city were gripped with fear. Ram Nath recalls, "we tied our womenfolk > >> with rope lest they escape out of fear. We had also decided to poison > >> them to death in case an eventuality of kidnapping/molestation arose". > >> When looters came, the families of Ahad Sakka and Qalinbaff told them > >> that Pandits fled from their home on learning that the mob was on way > >> to attack them. To keep rioters in good humour, Sakka and Qalinbaff > >> mockingly abused Pandits and succeeded in turning the mob away. The > >> mob stood for 25-30 minutes at Kaul's house. > >> Neighbours of Walis also tried to save Walis but the mob had its way. > >> Niranjan Nath Wali was an affluent person. Some people in the mob owed > >> him money. They succeeded in instigating the frenzied mob to attack > >> Niranjan and loot his property. > >> After the looters left, Kouls shifted to the house of Ahad Sakka and > >> stayed there for three days. This was the fortnight when Hindus > >> observe shraddas of their departed near and dear ones. Members of the > >> Koul family would stealthily during the night go to their home, > >> prepare food and come back. At Sakka's home they took only pears and > >> water. > >> 3 days later Kouls shifted to Chinkral mohalla first and later to > >> Sathu Barbarshah where Ramnath's aunt lived. Nilakanth Koul served in > >> Police Department. > >> He shifted his family to police lines. Such was the terror that > >> Ramnath's family was brought back to Chinkral Mohalla in a special > >> police van, nicknamed by locals as 'Rat Trap'. The Kouls never went > >> back to live in the Mohalla where they had lived for centuries. They > >> sold their house to Gh. Mohammad Qalinbaf in 1932. This in itself is > >> an indicator of the terror created by the events of 13th July. Kashmir > >> Sentinel > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > >> in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta > >> The Sarai Programme at CSDS > >> Raqs Media Collective > >> shuddha at sarai.net > >> www.sarai.net > >> www.raqsmediacollective.net > >> > >> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Fri May 29 07:07:05 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 02:37:05 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] News Items posted on the net on Multipurpose National Identity Cards-117 Message-ID: <65be9bf40905281837v3864f4d7ka798fd0aef4944d9@mail.gmail.com> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124244248889526369.html?mod=googlenews_wsj Dear UPA Government: Get Us Involved and Let's Get Going By RAJESH JAIN The verdict is in. A new United Progressive Alliance government is expected to take charge of India next month. With it comes the promise of a change for the better. The new government has the opportunity – and the challenge – to outline a bold vision for India, a vision that fires up the imagination of its people and the vitality of its entrepreneurs. [Rajesh Jain] Rajesh Jain The new government has to credibly signal its commitment to addressing the major challenges facing India and enlist the support of the private sector in creating innovations for achieving goals that are big, visionary and bold. In the past, whenever allowed the freedom to do so, the Indian corporate sector has risen to the occasion and helped India's development. It is time once again for the Indian government to present corporate India with a set of truly transformational challenges. Here is a small set of inter-related broad areas where change is urgently needed and which, with proper government support, Indian entrepreneurs and corporations will eagerly participate in. * Education: India needs a radically different education system as the current one is dysfunctional and largely irrelevant in the modern context. In a world of rapid and accelerating change, the foundational skill is to learn how to learn. The education system has to produce life-long learners, which the current setup does not permit. Fortunately, a radical re-engineering is possible through the use of powerful tools presented by the revolution in information and communications technologies. To achieve this, institutional reform of the type that encourages private sector participation in education is necessary. * Energy: Any economic activity, like all processes in the universe, depends on energy. Today's developed nations achieved their level of prosperity on cheap fossil fuels, an opportunity not available to India's 1.2 billion people. Fortunately, India is large enough to be able to leapfrog the fossil fuel stage by investing in the development and use of renewable energy sources such as solar and wind. The required investment cannot be raised without leadership which convincingly articulates the vision. * Urbanization: India's economic future depends on India's success at urbanizing its immense rural population. No economy has achieved even middle-income status without being mostly urban. What India needs is to make its agriculture more productive. The labor released from agriculture has to be provided training and opportunities in manufacturing and services sectors. It is important to distinguish between the development of rural areas and that of rural populations. The former is neither necessary nor sufficient for development; the latter is indispensable and can be achieved most effectively by urbanizing them. This challenge is the creation of new, livable cities that would lead the urbanization of the population needed for India's transition to an industrialized economy. * Transportation: India is a large country with a large population. For the economy to prosper, people and goods have to be efficiently moved over large distances. India is approximately ten times as densely populated as the US. It therefore cannot afford the solution that works for the US for transporting people, namely, air travel. What India needs is a land-based system and more specifically a rail-based transportation system, both for goods and people. The technology exists for super-efficient, super-fast rail systems. India has to seriously invest in that and replace the century-old current railway system. Furthermore, within cities, India needs to have an efficient public transit system and not take the unsustainable, car-centered approach. * Digital Infrastructure: Although India has one of the world's cheapest and extensive mobile networks for voice communications, its data networks are quite inadequate. India needs to make serious and large investments to upgrade its digital wireline and wireless networks to create a high-speed, ubiquitous envelope of data connectivity across the nation. This is what will spur the creation of the next-generation of entrepreneurial outfits creating world-leading applications and services for the domestic market. * Governance: India has to make judicious use of its financial capital. The problem is that the current leaky system does not allow the most effective and efficient use of those resources. What is needed is to leverage technology in better governance though citizen participation. Technology can enable citizen oversight of public spending and enforce accountability. Innovations such as smart national ID cards and eVoting can increase participation in democratic processes. India has a limited window of opportunity for getting its policies right so it can participate successfully in a globally very competitive world. It missed many previous opportunities but cannot afford to miss this one. The time has come for government and corporate India to come together to Think Big and drive the disruptive innovations that India so urgently needs to move rapidly up the development ladder. —Rajesh Jain is Managing Director, NetCore Solutions, Mumbai From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Fri May 29 07:10:01 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 02:40:01 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] MNIC: Parliament Questions - 15 Message-ID: <65be9bf40905281840q57048c62k851837080bf5953c@mail.gmail.com> http://164.100.47.132/psearch/QResult13.aspx?qref=17407 GOVERNMENT OF INDIA MINISTRY OF LAW , JUSTICE AND COMPANY AFFAIRS LOK SABHA UNSTARRED QUESTION NO 5102 ANSWERED ON 21.12.2000 ISSUING OF PHOTO IDENTITY CARDS IN ORISSA 5102 . Shri BHARTRUHARI MAHTAB (a) the number of voters in Orissa; (b) the number of voters who have been issued photo identity cards in Orissa; ( (c) whether the Union Government have released 50% of the total cost incurred by Orissa for the purpose; and (d) if so, the details thereof? ANSWER MINISTER OF LAW, JUSTICE & COMPANY AFFAIRS AND SHIPPING (SHRI ARUN JAITLEY) (a) & (b): The Election Commission has informed that as per the latest report received from the Chief Electoral Officer, Orissa, the total number of voters in Orissa is 2,41,72,899 and the number of persons issued with defect-free Photo Identity Cards is 1,81,88,207. (c) : Yes, Sir. The Union Government has released provisional advance payments in excess of the 50% of the total expenditure incurred by the State Government of Orissa for the purpose of preparation of Photo Identity Cards, upto the financial year 1999-2000. (d) : The State Government of Orissa has, since 1994-95, been allowed an on-account advance payment of Rs. 17,75,00,244/- as Government of India`s share of expenditure likely to be incurred on preparation of Photo Identity Cards. The audit certificates issued by the State Accountant General, for the years 1994-95 to 1997-98 indicate that the Government of India`s share of the expenditure incurred on this account during the said years is Rs. 15,69,32,899/-. The provisional figures of the Government of India`s share of the expenditure for the years 1998-99 and 1999-2000 as received from the State Government do not indicate any expenditure having been incurred on this account. Thus, till 1999-2000, the State Government of Orissa was having an unutilized amount of Rs. 2,05,67,345/- of the Government of India`s share of expenditure on preparation of Photo Identity Cards. From pawan.durani at gmail.com Fri May 29 09:14:52 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 09:14:52 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Dousing the Fires of JIHAD IN PAKISTAN Message-ID: <6b79f1a70905282044k2d588f56v9793a22ae4c50375@mail.gmail.com> Dousing the Fires of JIHAD IN PAKISTAN By Dr. Ajay Chrungoo THE new government in USA lead by President Obama has claimed to create a new regime of thinking to fight Islamic terrorism. The focus is gradually shifting from Iraq to Pakistan which is being gradually recognised as the epicentre of global terrorism. Adrian Leve and Catherine Scott-Clark in their work 'Deception' have reflected the view now shared by a large corpus of experts on international politics and terrorism when they say, “when politicians in London and Washington describe Musharraf as a key ally in the war on terror, what they really mean is that he is their only Islamic ally in the region. So with the White House and 10 Downing Street unable to countenance an alternative, Musharaff's Pakistan remains at the epicentre of terror, a disingenuous regime with its hands on the nuclear tiller". The apprehensions in India that Brak Obama links the improvement in situation in Afghanistan and Pakistan to the solution of Kashmir problem have not died. But US governments categorical advice articulated by Obama himself that India is not a threat to Pakistan and that Pakistan needs to change its views about India creates a space for a new thinking on the region. For the first time at least from a very optimistic and theoretical point of view one can venture to debate now that the problem of Pakistan is the nature of Pakistan itself. Unless this nature undergoes a transformation the motor which drives the polity in Pakistan to virulent anti-Americanism, compulsive hatred for India and voluntary embracing of Jihad, cannot to turned off. To think that Obama meant this when he urged Pakistan to change its outlook with regard to India is perhaps reading to much between and into the lines. The release of 1.5 billion dollars of aid to Pakistan at this juncture once again pin points to the fact that USA has not as yet shunned the suicidal expediency with regard to Pakistan which has plagued its outlook to contain the global Islamic stridency and violence.  A former advisor to Bush Regime on weapons of Mass Distruction who lead researches tracking Pakistan's nuclear progress from its inception categorically states," Pakistan is top of the list. It is the number one threat to the world at this moment in time. If it all goes off, a nuclear bomb in a US or European city. I am sure we will find ourselves looking in Pakistan's direction." Without generating a legitimate and vigorous introspection into the vital and important components of the polity in Pakistan, the financial bailout by USA only helps to nourish the vicious cycle of duplicity, deceit and deception which the Pakistani state has practised. To believe that the Pakistan Government and army have shunned ambivalence and duplicity and are rallying round to decisively counter radical Islam and its military might is very premature. To convey that the consent and compliance of Pakistani state in the war against Al Qaeda, Taliban and Muslim international is critical to US lead war on terror is fraught with the same consequences as has been the patronising of the Zia-ul-Haq regime and eventually Pervez Musharraf. How many time did President Bush describe Pervez Musharraf as 'his best friend' and the most important 'ally' in the war against terror. These dictators always thought that the US alliance with Pakistan was more critical than the concerns of USA on nuclear proliferation and the imperatives of global war on terror. Many believe that USA is fully entrenched in Pakistan, has defanged the nuclear smuggling network run by notorious KRL from Kahuta and has taken control of at least that commond centres of the Nuclear Bomb possessed by Pakistan. A few examples will suffice to make us re-examine our premises. Pakistani military continued its nuclear procurements even after the smashing of the network of Dr Qader Khan. While Musharraf was negotiating AQ Khan's expulsions and eventual house arrest with Bush in New York, Pakistani Military establishment was continuing with the procurement of material related to nuclear proliferation. Asher Karni of Top-Cape Technology, a Captown firm that imported US electronic goods to South Africa, was asked by a Islamabad based firm which was only a front for Pakistani military, to procure thirty-six US manufactured oscilloscopes for Pakistan, costing $1.3 million Bush refused to raise the issue with Musharraf at Camp David on 24 June 2003. Three days later the South African company confirmed Islamabad that they had procured spark gaps in the US at $950 per piece. The first batch of sixty-six spark gaps arrived in South Africa on 8 Oct, 2004. That very day Richard Armitage and General Pervez Musharraf in Islamabad were having a discussion to finalise how to settle the A.Q Khan issue. On October 21,2003 Humayun Khan took the delivery of the first batch of spark gaps in Pakistan. The shipment was useless because customs agents and anti proliferation sleuths had switched the spark gaps for harmless components keeping the whole affair out of Musharraf's knowledge. The entire affair came to court in March 2005 in USA. Intriguingly the US State Department had closed down many requests to travel to Pakistan to interview Humayun Khan, who if extradiled and found guilty could have been jailed. It was openly reported that 'Suddenly the US government was affraid of offending Pakistan, its partner in war on terror," During Zia-ul-Haq's time also the US government had ambushed court cases, sealed them and those accused in smuggling equipment and material related to nuclear proliferation were allowed to leave USA. General Musharraf took over the Khan's mill manufacturing nuclear components immediately after he had made himself President, restructuring it and transforming it into a world class facility with extraordinary input. In 2005 Lt. General Abdul Qayum Khan, the chairman of the mill said, "It was through Musharraf's daring, honest and visionary leadership that we have seized the moment". What did he mean was explained candidly by General KM Arif who had run the nuclear programme. He said about the nuclear business and the People's Steel Mill created by Dr Qader Khan as, "We have labs and the industry to rival the west. Once we sulked around. Now Pakistan is producing high-frequency invertors. They used to come from the UK and now we are selling them ourselves. Maraging  steel too. Once we struggled but now finally we are manufacturing it at People's Steel Mill and exporting it. It is better than you can get outside". Maraging Steel is used in high quality centrifuges used in enrichment of uranium. For Pakistan state to untemalise the view that USA will overlook its national interests to accommodate Pakistan is not a wishful state of mind the ground. Proliferation experts have almost confirmed that Pakistan has continued to sell nuclear technology even after Musharraf became the best friend of Bush. Nobody has taken notice of the release of Dr Qader Khan from house arrest by the Pakistani courts under the supervision of Zardari government which has been having turbulent times and which cannot survive without the American support. Release of Khan is an affront which USA has swallowed as it has done many times in past to preserve its relation with Pakistan. During the uncertainty in Pakistan caused by the lawyers long march the former Prime Minister of Pakistan Nawaz Sharief said in an interview to an Indian channel that, "I am not worried about happenings in Swat. I am worried about what is happening in Baluchistan." The implications of the statement were ignored. The statement basically reflected the dominant view in Pakistan that does not view Isalmisation and consequent radicalisation as a threat to National Unity and progress but sees the repressed subnational urges as the threat to Pakistan. To see army operations in certain parts of Pakistan as a corrective applied by the Pakistan state to change itself is erroneous and the new US regime is perhaps committing this error. The army operations against Taliban and non-state actors is in essence a vicious struggle for control of power. In essence Pakistani army is seeking only to tame the non-state actors so that they agree to work within the discipline and parameters created by Pakistani  state more specifically the Pakistan Army. The Taliban and other Non State actors on the othre hand are exerting the pressures on Pakistani army to conform to the dictates of Pan Islamic vision and act as its sword arm. If Pakistani Army wins it will seek to play the determining role not only as a frontline Muslim state but also as a nuclear Muslim state to shape the politics which will be none other than Islamic. If Taliban and Al Qaeda win the will of Pakistani army, will be subassumed into their will. Both ways the space for egalitarian and moderate politics is either obliterated or exists only as a mirage. US has been chasing this mirage to its own determinant. When Brak Obama says Pakistan has to change its outlook with regard to India does it mean a fundamental change in outlook or is it only diplomatic assurance to Pakistan that India has been forewarned of any misadventure while Pakistani Army is grappling with its internal menace. If Brak Obama means a fundamental change then we will see restructuring and recasting of international debate in Pakistan. Pakistan in such a scenario will have to cease to be a Muslim pocket created in post War period as a twin brother of Israel to contain or divide Asia. To help Pakistan to recast its outlook means changing its character. Pakistan has to emerge as a country where pluralism takes roots on a principal of equality which cannot happen so far political Islam takes precedence in its National Vision. Pakistan even if it wishes to emerge as a polity on the principal of equality, cannot do so unless it delinks comprehensively from Kashmir. Kashmir is the cardinal expression of Pakistan being a frontline Muslim state for the expansion of Muslims power towards east. So Kashmir acts as a motor to drives the mills of Jihad. Any solution to Kashmir which palacates Jihad will never help in dousing its fires.It well only act as its fuel for expanding to new frontiers. Source: Kashmir Sentinel, May 2009 issue From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Fri May 29 18:03:05 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 13:33:05 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] News Items posted on the net on Multipurpose National Identity Cards-118 Message-ID: <65be9bf40905290533n1314c249x68e555e5f8e799aa@mail.gmail.com> http://www.indianexpress.com/news/Multi-benefits/466967 Multi-benefits The Indian Express Posted: Thursday , May 28, 2009 at 0023 hrs IST Home Minister P. Chidambaram’s announcement that a multi-purpose national identity card (MNIC) will be available from 2011 is welcome. The National Population Register, to be compiled in a couple of years, will provide a comprehensive list of Indians, who will then be given unique numbers. The origin of the MNIC goes back to 2002, to the NDA regime’s desire to curb illegal migration from Bangladesh. The UPA also established pilot projects to test this, but the idea meandered until 26/11, when a jolted Centre realised that a single all-purpose identity card was a must for national security. The home minister’s announcement seems to be driven by internal security considerations. While the smart chip-enabled MNIC will certainly make policing easier, to focus solely on this is a waste of an opportunity. India’s leaky welfare schemes leak all the more because a sheaf of ID cards — from PAN to ration to electoral — overlap, are poorly distributed, and are often fudged. Worse, since most of these cards require home addresses, India’s many illegal squatters, slum-dwellers, not to mention millions of workers in the informal economy, remain beyond the reach of these cards. The MNIC, based on an exhaustive population census, could bring these invisibles onto master rolls and ensure that pro-poor measures are better targeted. This is all the more important given that the Congress, spurred by the belief that its public works scheme was a vote-winner in the just concluded elections, has already announced a slew of new welfare schemes. The large public monies flowing through government pipes will need an identified tap at the end. The data already collected by the government through the NREGA and Sarva Shiksha Abhiyan must be incorporated into the NPR to ensure that the MNIC is based on tip-top data. The MNIC will then have enough credibility to entirely replace the current pack. That its security value will overshadow the MNIC’s more benign use leads to another worry — the possible misuse by an overbearing security apparatus. It is one thing for a national identity card to help prevent terror attacks, quite another for permanent check points to insist that crossers produce ID cards as a matter of routine. There is a fine line between a well-policed state and, well, a police state. From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Fri May 29 18:06:34 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 13:36:34 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] MNIC: Parliament Questions - 16 Message-ID: <65be9bf40905290536w75dee33es78d83feef6865e92@mail.gmail.com> http://164.100.47.132/psearch/QResult13.aspx?qref=18227 GOVERNMENT OF INDIA MINISTRY OF LAW , JUSTICE AND COMPANY AFFAIRS LOK SABHA UNSTARRED QUESTION NO 279 ANSWERED ON 22.02.2001 ISSUING OF PHOTO IDENTITY CARDS IN BIHAR 279 . Shri RAJO SINGH (a) the number of voters in Bihar; (b) the number of voters who have been issued photo identity cards in Bihar; (c) whether the Union Government have released its share of expenditure to the Government of Bihar for this purpose; and (d) if so, the details thereof ? ANSWER MINISTER OF LAW, JUSTICE & COMPANY AFFAIRS AND SHIPPING (SHRI ARUN JAITLEY) (a) 58,438,317. (b) 21,681,836. (c) & (d) Yes Sir. The Union Government has since 1994-95 released provisional advance payment of Rs. 35,53,92,000/- as Government of India`s share of the expenditure incurred on the issuance of photo identity cards to voters. The said amount was released in two instalments, Rs. 22,76,00,000/- released in 1994-95 and Rs. 12,77,92,000/- in 1995-96, based on the projection of the total expenditure likely to be incurred on this account by the State Government. From madhuresh at cacim.net Fri May 29 21:05:25 2009 From: madhuresh at cacim.net (Madhuresh) Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 21:05:25 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] INVITATION : Looking Ahead to WSF 2011 in Dakar, Senegal. 2nd June Tuesday, 3:30-6:00 pm. Indian Social Institute, New Delhi Message-ID: <4A2000BD.60209@cacim.net> No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.43/2139 - Release Date: 05/28/09 08:10:00 From madhuresh at cacim.net Sat May 30 09:28:37 2009 From: madhuresh at cacim.net (Madhuresh) Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 09:28:37 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?Notes_from_DSG_meeting_to_discuss?= =?windows-1252?q?=2C_Elections=2C_Return_of_UPA_and_Challenges_for_People?= =?windows-1252?q?=92s_Movements?= Message-ID: <4A20AEED.2010601@cacim.net> No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.46/2142 - Release Date: 05/29/09 17:53:00 From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Sat May 30 14:57:01 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 10:27:01 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] News Items posted on the net on Multipurpose National Identity Cards-119 Message-ID: <65be9bf40905300227t5185cb2cm97b30719e6e0cedc@mail.gmail.com> http://www.assamtribune.com/scripts/details.asp?id=may2609/at02 Guwahati, Tuesday, May 26, 2009 Govt to start from scratch to resolve influx problem: PC Spl Correspondent NEW DELHI, May 25 – Asserting that the Centre has to start from scratch to resolve the problem of illegal influx, Union Home Minister, P Chidambaram today outlined forth a slew of measures to tackle the menace of infiltration from across the border. Addressing his maiden press conference after assuming office, the Union Home Minister said, any one who has visited the Indo-Bangladesh border would realise that it is not possible to seal the land and riverine border. “I don’t think sealing is the right answer,” he opined. Chidambaram’s response to the resolution of the vexed influx problem came on a day, when Assam Public Works (APW) filed a Civil Writ Petition in the Supreme Court pleading for removal of all illegal voters from the Electoral rolls of 2008 and holding of next Assembly poll in 2011 on the basis of the ‘correct voter’s list’. The fate of Assam Government’s recommendation for finalisation of the modalities for updating the National Register of Citizens (NRC) is, however, uncertain, with Chidambaram stating that he was not aware about it. “We are coming out with National Population Register, which will be ready by 2011. The multi-purpose identity cards would be issued on the basis of the NPR, he added. Meanwhile, the Union Home Minister said the Government of India would continue to do all it can to speed up the fencing of the border. “Our preparations, notwithstanding, there will be some allegations of failure to detect them,” he observed. Interestingly, when asked about the demographic changes taking place, Chidambaram said that the changes were nothing new. But every attempt to frame a law to deal with detection and deportation has floundered, he rued. “We need to start from the scratch,” he said. The obvious reference was to the repeal of the IM (DT) Act and later attempts by the UPA Government to amend the Foreigners’ Order, which too was thrown out by the Supreme Court. Chidambaram said that there was a need for complete re-think on detection and deportation. Meanwhile, the APW in its petition has called for directions from the Supreme Court to Government of India and Assam and Election Commission of India to identify and delete names of illegal voters from the latest voter’s list of Assam and to freeze the Voter’s list and stop election until it is updated and implemented. The APW has suggested that in order to regularise the March 25, 1971 Bangladeshis along with their lineage and to detect the post 1971 migrants as foreigners and their names deleted from the D Category of the List, in substitution of the modalities being proposed by the Government to up date the NRC, 1951. The petitioner also called for freezing of the 2006 voter’s list till the names of all illegal voters are removed from the rolls. From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Sat May 30 15:01:36 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 10:31:36 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] MNIC: Parliament Questions - 17 Message-ID: <65be9bf40905300231k910eaa9u1ed6a62a9d2f452d@mail.gmail.com> http://164.100.47.132/psearch/QResult13.aspx?qref=19313 GOVERNMENT OF INDIA MINISTRY OF SOCIAL JUSTICE AND EMPOWERMENT LOK SABHA UNSTARRED QUESTION NO 1512 ANSWERED ON 07.03.2001 REHABILITATION OF HANDICAPS AND ISSUE IDENTITY CARDS 1512 . Shri RAJESH VERMA TRILOCHAN KANUNGO T.M. SELVAGANAPATHI (a) whether the Government are considering to formulate a uniform identity card for the disabled persons; (b) if so, the details thereof and the time-frame worked out therefor; (c) names of the districts and corresponding Block and Gram Panchayats where the National Programme for Rehabilitation of Persons with Disabilities has been taken up by the Government as a State Sector Scheme, State-wise; (d) the steps taken by the Government to implement the above scheme in the remaining districts of the country; and (e) the institutions established by the Government to provide adequate training employment and guidance to disables to enable them to compete for Government jobs in various categories? ANSWER MINISTER OF STATE OF THE MINISTRY OF SOCIAL JUSTICE AND EMPOWERMENT (SMT. MANEKA GANDHI) (a)&(b) In order to have uniformity in the identity cards for persons with disabilities so as to ensure that various legitimate concessions/benefits are available to persons with disabilities, the Ministry, in August, 2000, has circulated uniform guidelines in this regard to all States/Union territories with a request to adopt the same for the purpose. (c)&(d) A Statement is attached as Annexure-I. (e) A Statement is attached as Annexure-II. Annexure I. referred to in reply to part (c ) & (d) of the Lok Sabha Unstarred Question No.1512 for answer on 7.3.2001 put up by Shri Rajesh Verma, ShriTrilochan Kanungo and Shri T.M. Selvaganapathi, regarding `Rehabilitation of Handicaps and Issue Identity Cards. Under National Programme for Rehabilitation of Persons with Disabilities (NPRPD), funding has been provided to States for setting up of 74 districts during the year 2000-2001. As NPRPD is a state sector scheme, the states have the flexibility to choose districts and its corresponding blocks and gram panchayats. Funds have been provided for covering on an average 10 blocks per district and 400 gram panchayats within the district. Number of districts to be covered depends on the budgetary allocation made for the scheme. The break-up of the number of the 74 districts, state-wise, to be covered during 2000-01 under the scheme is as follows: S.No. State/UT No. of Districts Districts to be Covered 2000-01 1. Arunachal Pradesh 13 3 2. Assam 23 4 3. Andhra Pradesh 23 2 4. Orissa 30 3 5. Uttar Pradesh 83 7 6. Karnataka 27 3 7 Kerala 14 2 8. Gujarat 25 3 9. Goa 2 1 10. Jammu & Kashmir 14 2 11. Tamil Nadu 29 3 12. Tripura 4 1 13. Nagaland 8 2 14. Punjab 17 2 15. West Bengal 18 2 16. Bihar 55 5 17. Manipur 8 2 18. Madhya Pradesh 61 6 19. Maharashtra 33 3 20. Meghalaya 7 2 21. Mizoram 3 1 22. Rajasthan 32 3 23. Sikkim 4 1 24. Haryana 19 2 25. Himachal Pradesh 12 2 26. Andeman Nicobar 2 1 27. Chandigarh 1 1 28. Daman & Diu 2 1 29. Dadra & Nagar Haveli 1 1 30. Delhi 1 1 31. Pondicherry 4 1 32. Lakshdweep 1 1 Total 74 Annexure II. referred to in reply to part (e ) of the Lok Sabha Unstarred Question No.1512 for answer on 7.3.2001 put up by Shri Rajesh Verma, Shri Trilochan Kanungo and Shri T.M. Selvaganapathi, regarding `Rehabilitation of Handicaps and Issue Identity Cards. The Government of India is already implementing a number of programmes for socio-economic progress of persons with disabilities all over the country. The details of schemes are as follows: - i) There are 17 vocational rehabilitation centers for persons with disabilities controlled and administered by Ministry of Labour located in all over India. ii) In order to effectively deal with multi-dimensional problem of the handicapped population, the Ministry has set up Four National Institutes and two Apex level organizations which undertakes various activities including training, vocational guidance, rehabilitation etc. iii) The National Handicapped Finance Development Corporation (NHFDC) set up in 1997 provides opportunities for skill development and loan assistance on soft terms to the persons with disabilities to set up Self-Employment ventures. iv) The Ministry is implementing a Scheme to promote Voluntary Action for persons with disabilities under which Voluntary Organisations are being assisted for providing, inter-alia, education and vocational training to persons with disabilities. v) District Rehabilitation Centre scheme was started during 1985 to provide comprehensive rehabilitation services to rural disabled right a (Answer truncated abruptly on the lok sabha web page ) From jeebesh at sarai.net Sat May 30 15:06:18 2009 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh) Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 15:06:18 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] News Items posted on the net on Multipurpose National Identity Cards-118 In-Reply-To: <65be9bf40905290533n1314c249x68e555e5f8e799aa@mail.gmail.com> References: <65be9bf40905290533n1314c249x68e555e5f8e799aa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 29-May-09, at 6:03 PM, Taha Mehmood wrote: > That its security value will overshadow the MNIC’s more benign use > leads to another worry — the possible misuse by an overbearing > security apparatus. It is one thing for a national identity card to > help prevent terror attacks, quite another for permanent check points > to insist that crossers produce ID cards as a matter of routine. There > is a fine line between a well-policed state and, well, a police state. The last line of this editorial from Indian Express confirms the general disquiet that MNIC will produce as it becomes more and more a reality. best jeebesh From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sat May 30 15:40:56 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 03:10:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] News Items posted on the net on Multipurpose National Identity Cards-118 Message-ID: <490081.18736.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Jeebesh   Sometimes I feel many of us thrive on 'disquiet'.   - either the MNIC will be "illegal" or contravene some essences of COI guaranteed to citizens ..... in which case any further work on it should should to be pre-empted through "legal" challenges     - or the MNIC will not be "illegal" but there are reservations on the extent to which it will incorporate 'information' which is suspect in it's usefulness or will not further the benign uses of MNIC ... in that case the 'legal' challenge should focus on rerstricting the ambit of 'information' incorporated in the MNIC    - another concern over the MNIC would be the collation of information generated by "user transactions"  and such collated information being susceptible to be abused .... in which case suyitable "walls" will have to be incorporated in such flow and collation of information and access to it or it's distribution.   "Disquiet" will serve no useful purpose. The concerns over MNIC should be pro-actively addressed through Legal Challenges including pre-emptive ones.   """""""MNICs should not become compulsory until there is an established judicial overview to ensure that the privacy rights of India’s citizens are not unlawfully violated. It is important that India confront and manage these risks and consider all alternatives before implementing the MNIC programme nationwide. """"""""" http://www.hrdc.net/sahrdc/hrfeatures/HRF169.htm   "Judicial Overview" will also not be enough if it only concludes agreement with the concerns over MNIC. It will have to extend itself into "intervention" of a kind that will "oversee" the design and architecture of the MNIC software and will not simply accept "self-certification". This could be done only by a non-governmental regulatory body comprised of IT professionals.   Kshmendra   --- On Sat, 5/30/09, Jeebesh wrote: From: Jeebesh Subject: Re: [Reader-list] News Items posted on the net on Multipurpose National Identity Cards-118 To: "Sarai Reader-list" Date: Saturday, May 30, 2009, 3:06 PM On 29-May-09, at 6:03 PM, Taha Mehmood wrote: > That its security value will overshadow the MNIC’s more benign use > leads to another worry — the possible misuse by an overbearing > security apparatus. It is one thing for a national identity card to > help prevent terror attacks, quite another for permanent check points > to insist that crossers produce ID cards as a matter of routine. There > is a fine line between a well-policed state and, well, a police state. The last line of this editorial from Indian Express confirms the  general disquiet that MNIC will produce as it becomes more and more a  reality. best jeebesh _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From jeebesh at sarai.net Sat May 30 16:03:08 2009 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh) Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 16:03:08 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] News Items posted on the net on Multipurpose National Identity Cards-118 In-Reply-To: <490081.18736.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <490081.18736.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3DA14A34-98DB-4863-A750-923C6A7E152C@sarai.net> It is not my disquiet. I am sure MNIC will not work. It will only create confusion and threats. And then will become another document among many with some level of magic and violence associated with it. The disquiet is something we will see growing around us among the people who initially would have lauded it as a great project for a great nation!. Indian Express is the biggest supporter of State's new found technological fantasies. Yet it can see the coming danger. I am interested in how they articulate this disquiet and what ways they think will deal with it. Indian Express can clearly see how thin the line is towards a "police state". I would like to follow how it reports on MNIC and what ways it sees it's unfolding. best jeebesh On 30-May-09, at 3:40 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Jeebesh > > Sometimes I feel many of us thrive on 'disquiet'. > > - either the MNIC will be "illegal" or contravene some essences of > COI guaranteed to citizens ..... in which case any further work on > it should should to be pre-empted through "legal" challenges > > - or the MNIC will not be "illegal" but there are reservations on > the extent to which it will incorporate 'information' which is > suspect in it's usefulness or will not further the benign uses of > MNIC ... in that case the 'legal' challenge should focus on > rerstricting the ambit of 'information' incorporated in the MNIC > > - another concern over the MNIC would be the collation of > information generated by "user transactions" and such collated > information being susceptible to be abused .... in which case > suyitable "walls" will have to be incorporated in such flow and > collation of information and access to it or it's distribution. > > "Disquiet" will serve no useful purpose. The concerns over MNIC > should be pro-actively addressed through Legal Challenges including > pre-emptive ones. > > """""""MNICs should not become compulsory until there is an > established judicial overview to ensure that the privacy rights of > India’s citizens are not unlawfully violated. It is important that > India confront and manage these risks and consider all alternatives > before implementing the MNIC programme nationwide. """"""""" > http://www.hrdc.net/sahrdc/hrfeatures/HRF169.htm > > "Judicial Overview" will also not be enough if it only concludes > agreement with the concerns over MNIC. It will have to extend itself > into "intervention" of a kind that will "oversee" the design and > architecture of the MNIC software and will not simply accept "self- > certification". This could be done only by a non-governmental > regulatory body comprised of IT professionals. > > Kshmendra > > > > --- On Sat, 5/30/09, Jeebesh wrote: > > From: Jeebesh > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] News Items posted on the net on > Multipurpose National Identity Cards-118 > To: "Sarai Reader-list" > Date: Saturday, May 30, 2009, 3:06 PM > > > On 29-May-09, at 6:03 PM, Taha Mehmood wrote: > > > That its security value will overshadow the MNIC’s more benign use > > leads to another worry — the possible misuse by an overbearing > > security apparatus. It is one thing for a national identity card to > > help prevent terror attacks, quite another for permanent check > points > > to insist that crossers produce ID cards as a matter of routine. > There > > is a fine line between a well-policed state and, well, a police > state. > > The last line of this editorial from Indian Express confirms the > general disquiet that MNIC will produce as it becomes more and more a > reality. > > best > jeebesh > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From jeebesh at sarai.net Sat May 30 16:49:08 2009 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh) Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 16:49:08 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] News Items posted on the net on Multipurpose National Identity Cards-118 In-Reply-To: <921738.3530.qm@web94706.mail.in2.yahoo.com> References: <490081.18736.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <3DA14A34-98DB-4863-A750-923C6A7E152C@sarai.net> <921738.3530.qm@web94706.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <27F50E53-0658-4714-9437-E2D5E5CCF9B9@sarai.net> If you have the capacity to stop the State in it's most intimate and phantasmic act with it's citizen, go ahead. I do not think it will stop. It will accelerate and build a huge arsenal of effects and affects. Since a discussion list lives in time, it will be nice to track it. Tracking its various edges and claims will be something a list with so many articulate individuals can do well and carefully observe the MNIC over time and hopefully will be able to provide some insight into its operation and social life. That may help various collective actions to be informed by. On 30-May-09, at 4:23 PM, subhrodip sengupta wrote: > Many of us have earlier also stated that it will not work. But the > problem as one can see is not about individual > convictions but the process of law and how it gets manipulated> > Without any opposition this scheme is proceeding if not as a safe > abode definitely for building abodes for many. The question is how > we may stop it, how the public can get it's voice heard, and what > assumes that the govt will follow. Well, with a section of > intellectuals inclined with such style of reasoning that terrorists > terrorize people, masses only follow. A sctientific analysis or need > to provide data is rejected and wishful thinking resorted to. Alas, > but who will stop it? Constitution and the citizenship act put the > onus on the state to provide identity to people. But this provision > made compulsory is just a way for hardline politics to surface and > that poses an inner contradiction. For that means onus shifting to > citizens to prove an id. Luckily, the EC was looser on the rules, > but how many of Indians, not us, have their own photo-ids, issued by > state? > > From: Jeebesh > To: Sarai Reader-list > Sent: Saturday, 30 May, 2009 4:03:08 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] News Items posted on the net on > Multipurpose National Identity Cards-118 > > It is not my disquiet. I am sure MNIC will not work. It will only > create confusion and threats. And then will become another document > among many with some level of magic and violence associated with it. > > The disquiet is something we will see growing around us among the > people who initially would have lauded it as a great project for a > great nation!. Indian Express is the biggest supporter of State's new > found technological fantasies. Yet it can see the coming danger. I am > interested in how they articulate this disquiet and what ways they > think will deal with it. Indian Express can clearly see how thin the > line is towards a "police state". I would like to follow how it > reports on MNIC and what ways it sees it's unfolding. > > best > jeebesh > > > > On 30-May-09, at 3:40 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > > Dear Jeebesh > > > > Sometimes I feel many of us thrive on 'disquiet'. > > > > - either the MNIC will be "illegal" or contravene some essences of > > COI guaranteed to citizens ...... in which case any further work on > > it should should to be pre-empted through "legal" challenges > > > > - or the MNIC will not be "illegal" but there are reservations on > > the extent to which it will incorporate 'information' which is > > suspect in it's usefulness or will not further the benign uses of > > MNIC ... in that case the 'legal' challenge should focus on > > rerstricting the ambit of 'information' incorporated in the MNIC > > > > - another concern over the MNIC would be the collation of > > information generated by "user transactions" and such collated > > information being susceptible to be abused .... in which case > > suyitable "walls" will have to be incorporated in such flow and > > collation of information and access to it or it's distribution. > > > > "Disquiet" will serve no useful purpose. The concerns over MNIC > > should be pro-actively addressed through Legal Challenges including > > pre-emptive ones. > > > > """""""MNICs should not become compulsory until there is an > > established judicial overview to ensure that the privacy rights of > > India’s citizens are not unlawfully violated. It is important that > > India confront and manage these risks and consider all alternatives > > before implementing the MNIC programme nationwide. """"""""" > > http://www.hrdc.net/sahrdc/hrfeatures/HRF169.htm > > > > "Judicial Overview" will also not be enough if it only concludes > > agreement with the concerns over MNIC. It will have to extend itself > > into "intervention" of a kind that will "oversee" the design and > > architecture of the MNIC software and will not simply accept "self- > > certification". This could be done only by a non-governmental > > regulatory body comprised of IT professionals. > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 5/30/09, Jeebesh wrote: > > > > From: Jeebesh > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] News Items posted on the net on > > Multipurpose National Identity Cards-118 > > To: "Sarai Reader-list" > > Date: Saturday, May 30, 2009, 3:06 PM > > > > > > On 29-May-09, at 6:03 PM, Taha Mehmood wrote: > > > > > That its security value will overshadow the MNIC’s more benign use > > > leads to another worry — the possible misuse by an overbearing > > > security apparatus. It is one thing for a national identity card > to > > > help prevent terror attacks, quite another for permanent check > > points > > > to insist that crossers produce ID cards as a matter of routine. > > There > > > is a fine line between a well-policed state and, well, a police > > state. > > > > The last line of this editorial from Indian Express confirms the > > general disquiet that MNIC will produce as it becomes more and > more a > > reality. > > > > best > > jeebesh > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter now! From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Sat May 30 18:47:29 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 14:17:29 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] News Items posted on the net on Multipurpose National Identity Cards-118 In-Reply-To: <27F50E53-0658-4714-9437-E2D5E5CCF9B9@sarai.net> References: <490081.18736.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <3DA14A34-98DB-4863-A750-923C6A7E152C@sarai.net> <921738.3530.qm@web94706.mail.in2.yahoo.com> <27F50E53-0658-4714-9437-E2D5E5CCF9B9@sarai.net> Message-ID: <65be9bf40905300617y6ca43f32rfd0b0b57d3525a05@mail.gmail.com> I may be completely wrong here but I feel that there is an overwhelming endorsement of MNIC by pivotal institutions like the Indian State or the mass media or the industry. In this regard one could read Jeebesh's interpretation of Indian Express's articulation of social condition emerging out of a possible MNIC regime as 'disquiet' as perhaps a mere journalistic posturing for the sake of 'objectivity'. However, we have people like Debroy (an IE contributor) who is articulating a cautious approach to MNIC because of scale of logistics. Internationally if we take the case of UK, for instance, then policy crowd is slowly showing signs of disinclination towards a national ID card project because of costs involved and not on the strength of lofty ideas like privacy. As far as policy indicators in recent years is concerned, we have seen in India a hardening of political will around the idea of a NIC. NIC is something which is endorsed by political parties belonging to left, right and center of the political spectrum. The right play the 'anti-terror instrument' card, the left use the 'instrument of just distribution' card while the center co-opts both. Therefore it would be quite futile for us to see any hint of either discourses of illegality of such a mechanism or for that matter voices of discontent which could cogently articulate a case against MNIC, emerge from either the political class or from mass media. I include mass media assuming that it could play the role of an activist. Like the notion of Individual Privacy, as it is imagined in the West is perhaps not a big issue in the whole of India, hence even the privacy argument, which of course stands on its own merit and which of course is very relevant, may fail to generate even a minimal threshold of counter chorus. This, I think is more of an anxiety emanating from educated middling sorts. In addition to that I do not think the government is serious about the efficacy of MNIC. I think the government knows that it will not work. However, I have a feeling that, the government of India wants to pursue MNIC, maybe because a tool like MNIC gives a government a lot of leverage to push polices of redistribution in a manner which could comply to political exigencies. The purported utility of MNIC regime as an instrument to collect and collate information based in 'user transactions' and the concern that it could be subject to some sort of abuse is perhaps valid but it is systemic, something which we in India has dealt with for ages. That for me atleast, would be more of a case of re-emergence of an old disease under seemingly new symptoms. However, given the tenacity of Indians to find a jugaad for anything I am sure it would not be long before for this plastic token is also tackled, I am extremely curious about the nature of such a jugaad, or the terms of rupture which such a regime could invite. From lalitambardar at hotmail.com Sat May 30 19:04:16 2009 From: lalitambardar at hotmail.com (Lalit Ambardar) Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 13:34:16 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Massacres - Part 3- ..present has a corollary in the past .. In-Reply-To: References: <6b79f1a70905262137h5ec0540eq5efa8bb79615fac1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: True, under normal circumstances it doesn’t make any sense to recall the horrors of the past. Kashmiri Hindu Pandits had suffered persecution for centuries. Yet they made a choice in 1947 when they choose to bury the past & responded with great fervour to the call of ‘Naya Kashmir’ ( New Kashmir) & stood firmly against the onslaught of the Pakistan sponsored jihadis under the banner ‘hamlavar khabardar, hum Kashmiri hain tayyar’ ( oh invader, beware , we Kashmiris are prepared) .It was then the Mahatma saw a ray of hope in Kashmir. But now when even the committed Islamists, not to talk of the so called liberal /secular mind set, are allowed to get away with the claim that Kashmir continues to be a ‘cradle of secularism’ when the minority Hindu Pandits are living as refugees in their own country ever since their ethnic cleansing in the valley two decades ago at the hands of the pan Islamists seeking secession from India, the present finds a natural corollary in the past. Regards all LA ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > From: shuddha at sarai.net > Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 12:31:18 +0530 > To: pawan.durani at gmail.com > CC: reader-list at sarai.net > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Massacres - Part 3 > > Pawan, > > For every one instance of assaults on Hindus by Muslims that you > post, someone else may be able to find one, two, three, four > instances of assaults on Muslims by Hindus. And none would be false, > neither your claims, nor theirs. And then you would find more, and > then they would find more, and life on this list would continue to > spiral on to a vulgar exhibitionism of everybody's agony and mutual > hatred. We've been down that road before. Who, after all, has not had > a hard time in the twentieth century? Which identity cannot claim for > itself the mantle of the victim? > > All this would only demonstrate what we know only too well, that > human beings are vile, that religions (all religions, without > exception, and modern ideologies, offer rationalizations for > gratuitous acts of violence). So, what does that achieve ? I think > nothing. > > Can we move on from this, and explore things that are new, that are > surprising, that are discoveries, that extend our appreciation of our > histories instead of trading the same monotonous charges, can we > sometimes locate the occasional highlights that still continue to > shine in the fragile house of the human spirit? > > Or must we remain forever trapped in this cycle of proving who had a > worse twentieth century than whom? Speaking for myself, I have better > things to do than be caught being a spectator to this kind of sado- > masochism of the spirit. I hope I am not the only one who feels this > way. > > Shuddha > > On 27-May-09, at 10:07 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > Sanity and Madness on 13th July, 1931 > > > > The communal pogrom against Kashmiri Hindus and Khatri traders was a > > pre-planned move by the leaders of 13th July agitation and their > > sponsors - the British Political Department. > > > > Hindus became victims of the mad frenzy in Vicharnag, Maharajganj, > > Khankah Mohalla, in Srinagar city and at Shopian and Anantnag towns. > > > > The events which took place in Khankah mohalla reveal an interesting > > pattern. While the members of the majority community displayed strong > > communal passions when they came to attack Pandits, the immediate > > neighbours played a positive role. > > > > Five Pandit families lived in Khankah mohalla, opposite the Kali > > Shrine. These families included three families of Kouls - Ram Nath, > > Nilakanth and Rughnath. They were all cousins. The other two families > > - Niranjan Nath Wali and Dina Nath Wali lived jointly. > > > > Soon after looting Khatri shops in Maharajgunj the big mob turned to > > Khankah Mohalla to attack Kashmiri Hindus. The neighbours of the > > Pandit families - Gh. Mohammad Qalinbaf and Ahad Sakka (water carrier) > > rose to the occasion and decided not to betray their neighbours with > > whom they had been living through generations. At the suggestion of > > these neighbours the Kouls hid themselves in attic storey (Brer Kani) > > of the house. Sakka had asked Kouls to throw some household refuse on > > the verandah and keep windows and doors open to mislead the rioters. > > The Pandits, on hearing about the atrocities in other parts of the > > city were gripped with fear. Ram Nath recalls, "we tied our womenfolk > > with rope lest they escape out of fear. We had also decided to poison > > them to death in case an eventuality of kidnapping/molestation arose". > > > > When looters came, the families of Ahad Sakka and Qalinbaff told them > > that Pandits fled from their home on learning that the mob was on way > > to attack them. To keep rioters in good humour, Sakka and Qalinbaff > > mockingly abused Pandits and succeeded in turning the mob away. The > > mob stood for 25-30 minutes at Kaul's house. > > > > Neighbours of Walis also tried to save Walis but the mob had its way. > > Niranjan Nath Wali was an affluent person. Some people in the mob owed > > him money. They succeeded in instigating the frenzied mob to attack > > Niranjan and loot his property. > > > > After the looters left, Kouls shifted to the house of Ahad Sakka and > > stayed there for three days. This was the fortnight when Hindus > > observe shraddas of their departed near and dear ones. Members of the > > Koul family would stealthily during the night go to their home, > > prepare food and come back. At Sakka's home they took only pears and > > water. > > > > 3 days later Kouls shifted to Chinkral mohalla first and later to > > Sathu Barbarshah where Ramnath's aunt lived. Nilakanth Koul served in > > Police Department. > > > > He shifted his family to police lines. Such was the terror that > > Ramnath's family was brought back to Chinkral Mohalla in a special > > police van, nicknamed by locals as 'Rat Trap'. The Kouls never went > > back to live in the Mohalla where they had lived for centuries. They > > sold their house to Gh. Mohammad Qalinbaf in 1932. This in itself is > > an indicator of the terror created by the events of 13th July. Kashmir > > Sentinel > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________________________________ Drag n’ drop—Get easy photo sharing with Windows Live™ Photos. http://www.microsoft.com/india/windows/windowslive/photos.aspx From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sat May 30 19:43:01 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 07:13:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] News Items posted on the net on Multipurpose National Identity Cards-118 Message-ID: <136867.89614.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Jeebesh   Do understand your interest in tracking "media" and in this case IE on MNIC.   My comment on 'disquiet' was not Jeebesh-specific but generalised for all who simply criticise but do not provide credible alternatives or correctives. That would include me.   Expressing 'disquiet' in the case of MNIC might serve some useful purpose in creating awareness of the various 'dangers' and 'threats' that would come into play if MNIC is introduced unchecked. But, simply  expressing such 'disquiet' and repeatedly so will only create a paranoia about the MNIC.   Whether it is from IE or any other voice(s) of concern, the 'disquiet' needs to be translated into steps put into practice to stem introduction of MNIC or ensure independent oversight of it's architecture.   The 'disquiet' might seize the discomfort of some who enquire into the MNIC but those 'some' will be all too 'few' amongst the 'very many more' who would not be bothered about the 'dangers' and 'threats' from MNIC.   If such an 'lack-of-interest' evaluation is a fair deduction, only the "Legal" route could provide  productive-attention, intervention and correction.      Will the MNIC work? It might not work for 'all' and not work 'all the time' but if it fulfills a substantive percentage of the intended application, it would be deemed as having 'worked'. Whatever be the intended usage.   Kshmendra   --- On Sat, 5/30/09, Jeebesh wrote: From: Jeebesh Subject: Re: [Reader-list] News Items posted on the net on Multipurpose National Identity Cards-118 To: "Sarai Reader-list" Date: Saturday, May 30, 2009, 4:03 PM It is not my disquiet. I am sure MNIC will not work. It will only  create confusion and threats. And then will become another document  among many with some level of magic and violence associated with it. The disquiet is something we will see growing around us among the  people who initially would have lauded it as a great project for a  great nation!. Indian Express is the biggest supporter of State's new  found technological fantasies. Yet it can see the coming danger. I am  interested in how they articulate this disquiet and what ways they  think will deal with it. Indian Express can clearly see how thin the  line is towards a "police state". I would like to follow how it  reports on MNIC and what ways it sees it's unfolding. best jeebesh On 30-May-09, at 3:40 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Jeebesh > > Sometimes I feel many of us thrive on 'disquiet'. > > - either the MNIC will be "illegal" or contravene some essences of  > COI guaranteed to citizens ..... in which case any further work on  > it should should to be pre-empted through "legal" challenges > > - or the MNIC will not be "illegal" but there are reservations on  > the extent to which it will incorporate 'information' which is  > suspect in it's usefulness or will not further the benign uses of  > MNIC ... in that case the 'legal' challenge should focus on  > rerstricting the ambit of 'information' incorporated in the MNIC > > - another concern over the MNIC would be the collation of  > information generated by "user transactions"  and such collated  > information being susceptible to be abused .... in which case  > suyitable "walls" will have to be incorporated in such flow and  > collation of information and access to it or it's distribution. > > "Disquiet" will serve no useful purpose. The concerns over MNIC  > should be pro-actively addressed through Legal Challenges including  > pre-emptive ones. > > """""""MNICs should not become compulsory until there is an  > established judicial overview to ensure that the privacy rights of  > India’s citizens are not unlawfully violated. It is important that  > India confront and manage these risks and consider all alternatives  > before implementing the MNIC programme nationwide. """"""""" > http://www.hrdc.net/sahrdc/hrfeatures/HRF169.htm > > "Judicial Overview" will also not be enough if it only concludes  > agreement with the concerns over MNIC. It will have to extend itself  > into "intervention" of a kind that will "oversee" the design and  > architecture of the MNIC software and will not simply accept "self- > certification". This could be done only by a non-governmental  > regulatory body comprised of IT professionals. > > Kshmendra > > > > --- On Sat, 5/30/09, Jeebesh wrote: > > From: Jeebesh > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] News Items posted on the net on  > Multipurpose National Identity Cards-118 > To: "Sarai Reader-list" > Date: Saturday, May 30, 2009, 3:06 PM > > > On 29-May-09, at 6:03 PM, Taha Mehmood wrote: > > > That its security value will overshadow the MNIC’s more benign use > > leads to another worry — the possible misuse by an overbearing > > security apparatus. It is one thing for a national identity card to > > help prevent terror attacks, quite another for permanent check  > points > > to insist that crossers produce ID cards as a matter of routine.  > There > > is a fine line between a well-policed state and, well, a police  > state. > > The last line of this editorial from Indian Express confirms the > general disquiet that MNIC will produce as it becomes more and more a > reality. > > best > jeebesh > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with  > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sat May 30 20:19:35 2009 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 20:19:35 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Reality Of Shiva from Kashmir Shaivism to Lalla Ded Vakhs Message-ID: <6b79f1a70905300749l3eaad99dk361cc6636fedab7@mail.gmail.com> The Reality Of Shiva from Kashmir Shaivism to Lalla Ded Vakhs Prof. M.L  Koul The Shaiva thinkers of Kashmir structured their thought model on the fulcrum of Shiva as the highest metaphysical reality. Shiva is synonymous with consciousness supreme. 'Chaitanyam atma' as formulated by acarya vasugupta invests the Shaiva thought with such a distinguishing feature as marks its divergence from other variants of absolutism. Chaitanyam as drawn from chetna as per Khemraj marks the absolute freedom of consciousness supreme or Shiva to know and act. It is the state of one ness (aham) and in no way impairs the absolute reality of Shiva. Though an active agent in the processes of creation (manifestation), Shiva is perfect, and transcendental. He is self-proved (svata sidda) and needs no logical pramanas to prove and establish His existence. Besides being svata-sidda, Shiva is prakash, light of luminosity and Jnan, all-knowing, everything known to Him. Prakash also underlines Shiva's transcendence and equipoise in the state of transcendence. Shiva as against Vedanic Sat, Cit, Anand is only Cit and Anand. It is His Kutasth Swarup. His luminosity is His Prakashrupta and Anand is His gushing out (Uchhalan) to act out the vilas (sport) of creation. Shiva has no taints  of limitation and succession. He is beyond Vikaras (deformities). He is the first and the last cause of the manifestation. Prior to His emergence of will to manifest what is inside Him to Himself, the universe with all its diversities lies in Him in a state of submergence. In his monumental work Tantralok, Abhinavgupta conveys the same position of Shiva which is commented upon as— 'sa cha svata-sidda prakashatma parmarthrupa parmeshvar Shiva aiva' Shiva is not only Prakash but Vimarsa also. Vimarsa as per Dr. Jaidev Singh is the sciring of Shiva's own consciousness. Vimarsa is Shakti, the nature of Shiva. It denotes Shiva's power to act. As per Shaiva texts diamond is prakash, but it is absolutely deficient in knowing itself as prakash. But Shiva knows Himself as prakash. Various names have been given to Vimarsa. It is Kartritva, Swatantrya, and Parashakti. Had Shiva been prakash only the universe would not have appeared. It is because of Vimarsa that Shiva manifests the universe on the screen of His own consciousness. All that we find in the universe is an abhasa and each abhasa is self-expression of Shiva. What we find outside in the universe is inside Shiva only—yadantastad sahir. The Shaivite monists of Kashmir have taken a different position on the Vedanic stand-point of Vivartvad which means imposition of world on Brahman through ignorance (avidya). To justify their non-dual position they assert that Shiva through his Swatantrya Shakti imposes world on Himself through His own maya-Shakti. The Vedantists are afraid that if Maya is taken as the Shakti of Brahman, it means dragging Brahman into the world of impurity. Had they taken such a position of maya as the Shakti of Brahman, their Brahman would have metamorphosed into Shiva of Kashmiri thinkers. Unlike the Vedantists the Shaivites do not negate the world to reinforce the metaphysical reality of Shiva. When Shiva is pure luminosity (prakash), which is the sheet anchor of all abhasas, He is transcendental. When He is immanent in the world, He is Vimarsa. Shiva is an active agent in manifesting the world. He is the first and final cause of the manifested world. Shiva and Shakti, to Kashmiri thinkers of monism, are not two separate entities or polarities. They are one and only one. When Shiva through His divine will wants to see what is inside Him, He is Shakti. Had he no will power to manifest Himself to Himself, He would have been inanimate and life-less (Jada). Shiva's Swatantrya lies in willing, knowing and acting. Shakti is the potency of Shiva to create the universe. His divine activities are known in Shaiva parlance as His Kriya. Activities of willing, knowing and acting are not His Vikaras (deformities) as is the case in Vedanta. Kashmiri Shaivites take Jnan and Kriya in combination. Their position is not that of Vedanta which holds Jnan and Kriya as two separate categories, one cancelling the other. Shiv is Kriya, the universe that He creates (manifests) is His doing. His Kriya does not taint the purity of His being. Shiva is Maheshwar (Lord), not because of His prakash or Jnan, but because He acts to manifest the universe. His lordship is in His manifestation of the world. Shiva is both transcendental and immanent. Shiva performs five acts (panchkretya). He creates, preserves, withdraws, obfuscates and showers grace (anugrah). His five-fold acts define Shiva's Swatantrya (absolute freedom). In Svacchand Tantra we have-- srishti samhar kartaram vilai sithiti karkam anugrah karam devam pranatarti vinshanam It needs be emphasised that Shiva as the sovereign lord has no compulsions to commit five acts. He has no lag for the filling of which he performs five-acts. He is all perfect and purna. His inherent nature of being purna and perfect gets in no way impaired by His act of manifestation of the phenomenal world. He creates but has no purpose to create. His creation and creative impulse underline his swatantrya to do anything. He creates out of anand which establishes His Vilasa of Lordship (maheshvariya). In his celebrated work Shiva-strotravali utpaldev sings that Shiva steeped in His ananda imagines diverse objects of the world out of His free-will just for leela (sport). In Paratrimshikha Abhinavgupta writes that the vibration of Shiva's anand is the universe. 'Akul' & 'Kul are two agamic terms that have oft been used to denote Shiv and Shakti. 'Akul' is Shiva who is synonymous with consciousness supreme. 'Kul' is the Shakti that creates the universe. These two terms have come to non-dual Shaivism from Kaulachar that was practised at many places in India .Their meanings have been retained by the Kashmiri thinkers. In Paratrimshika Abhinavgupta has extensively dealt with the terms of 'Akul' and 'Kul', one denoting the transcendental Shiva as consciousness supreme and the other as the Shakti of that consciousness tending to create. Shiva in Lalla-Ded Vakhs Lalla Ded Vakhs are deeply soaked in Shiva-consciousness. The attainment of Shivahood is her ultimate destiny. Initiated in the Shaiva praxis by her preceptor, Sidda Srikanth, Lalla Ded devotedly and single-mindedly worked out the upayas (methodologiesthat her celebrated preceptor had introduced to her. Her Vakhs lucidly reveal that she is fully aware of the real swaroop of Shiva. She sings out that Shiva is Chidanand, Cit and Anand, Jnan and Prakash. Cit is the consciousness supreme which is the source of life and universe and anand is the gushing out (Ucchalan) of that consciousness supreme. She also sings that Shiva with whom she has to gain identity is Prakash as He illumines in His own light, celestial light and is Jnan as He is all-knowing. As Lalla Ded was a Shaiva Yogini she has experienced the luminosity of Shiva's consciousness through the relentless pursuit of Shaiva trajectory. She has not just shone in His Prakash as Muslim mystics would in the light of God, but she is an inalienable part of that luminosity and is totally soaked in it. As her Vakhs convey she has intensely felt the condition of getting merged in the luminous state of Shiva's consciousness. She is not merely speculating, but expressing her felt-experience in a language that objectifies that experience, though subtle and nebulous. Being one with Shiva's Prakash and Jnan, His entire mass of divine consciousness, Lalla has risen to the status of one who is liberated while living. She has no confusions and dilemmas of an anu (Jiva) who is tossed about in the dualities of the world. Lalla Ded sings- Chidanandas Jnan prakashas Yimav Chyun tim zeevantai mokhta vishaymis samsarnis pashyas abodi gandah shyat-shyat ditya. Shiva is a creative agent. He can be likened to a painter who delineates the universe on the canvas of His own consciousness. When He creates, He is the Shakti. He and His divine consciousness pervade the universe, whether animate or inanimate. From man to everything living to dead objects have immanence of Shiva. He is not like a monotheistic God who creates the world and leaves it alone. The creator and the created never meet. Shiva is present in everything living or non-living. As an ultimate destiny everything finds its resting place in Shiva's consciousness supreme. Lalla Ded says:- Gagan Chaya Bhutal Chay Chay Dyan Pawan Ta Rath Lalla Ded knows the inherent nature of Shiva, who is anahat, pranav, unhindered sound of oum, kha-swarup, shunyalia, aham, I consciousness, bindu and nada and as pure consciousness has no name and form, caste, colour and gotra. Lalla Ded is aware of the trajectory that she has to warily follow to attain emergence into the pure consciousness of Shiva, wherein the stir of creativity lies undifferentiated from the vast ocean of that consciousness. As an initiate she has to practise pran-apan to pacify her chitta (mind) from kshob (disturbance) brought about by currents and cross-currents of diverse thoughts. She has to pass through states where there will be a void or support-lessness and also flashes of illuminating consciousness uplifting her from the crippling limitations that have bound her as a jiva. Shiv, to her, is the only deity that qualifies to ride the 'trigunatmac' horse as put in the allegory. Lalla Ded’s Shiva is- anahat kha-swarup shunyalia yas nav na varan na guthur na raef aham vimarasa nada bindai von sui deeva ashwa war chyadyas Lalla Ded is in full know of her human condition. She is a Jiva beset with enormous web of limitations. Her Shiva has six attributes which He can harness at His mere will with nothing to restrain Him. He has the attributes of sovereign power (maheshwariya), omnipotence (sarva-kartritva), Omniscience (sarvajnatritva), all-inclusiveness (purnatva) eternality (nityatva), and all-pervasiveness (vyapaktva). What essentially distinguishes her from Shiva is that  He masters His in-built attributes while she is in a state of servitude to the limitations that have enmeshed her. Lalla Ded pours out- yimai sheya chya timai sheya meya shamgala chaya byan tatis yohai byan abeeda chya ta meya chya shyan sami ba sheyi mushis Shiva is transcendetal, beyond the confines of time and space, but He is equally immanent, present in everything He incessantly creates on the screen of His own consciousness. His is not the case of a semitic God who creates the world and withdraws from it for fear of losing His unity. Shiva creates all the world of animates and equally creates the world of inanimates. A dead stone also has the spark of His creative consciousness, but the spark is slightly weak. Whatever appears in the world is within the ambit of His all-pervasive consciousness. Lalla Ded Conveys the immanence of Shiva- Shiva chuya zavul zal vahravith kranzan manz chuy tarith kyath Shiva as prakash or in transcendence is rest, equipoise and perfect equilibrium. He brims with anand (bliss). The canvas of universe that He incessantly opens out and draws in as a matter of sport (Leela) is His garden where He deilghts in the flowers of smell, taste, sight, sound and touch. The multifarious diversity that Shiva creates is His act of lordliness and it in no way disturbs His poise and tranquility. Lalla Ded as a yogini living in the flowery world of smell, sight et al is so well-poised in her (Contd. from Page 13) awareness that she sees Shiva in the world, yet beyond the confines of the world as a perceptible garden. She is at a station  where she is absolutely content and joyous having dips in the ever-gushing nectar of Shiva's consciousness supreme. She calls such dips as 'dying' because it is a state of mergence. Lalla Ded sings:- Lala ba chayan suman baga baras vuchum Shivas Shakhat meelith tavah laya karmas amryat saras tati maras ta karyam kyha It is a matter of common observation that water as an element under freezing conditions gets frozen into the form of snow and ice. When the sun shines upon snow or ice, it gets melted, back into the state of water. The element of water, the process of getting frozen and snow or ice, though sequentially three in number are essentially one. Water as the basic substance under a freezing process turns into snow or ice. Similarly the fundamental fluid of Shiva's consciousness having a stir of creativity in a submerged condition assumes varied forms under the willing impulse of Shiva Himself. Diversity as we find in the multi-faceted universe is eternally one with the creative consciousness of Shiva. It is an eternal process of opening out (unmesh) and withdrawing in (nimilan) Lalla Ded sings out- Turi salil khot ture himi trai gayi byan abyan vimarsa chyatani rava bhati sab samai shiva mai charachar jagpashya The frightful and ominous clouds of bigotry and intolerance had enveloped the skies of Kashmir when Lalla Ded was treading the native land of Kashmir. The forcible conversions with the aid of Muslim state power had already kick-started. In her trenchant exhortation to the hordes of Sayyid-Sufis acting as sappers and miners of Islam she clamours out the immanence of Shiva and need to follow the path of self-recognition as part of Trika Darshan to see essence of Shiva in men of all faiths:- Shiva chuya thali-tahl rozan mozan hynd ta musalman trukhai chyukh pan praznav soya chai shivas saet zani-zan Source: Kashmir Sentinel, May 2009 issue From anansi1 at earthlink.net Sat May 30 21:38:03 2009 From: anansi1 at earthlink.net (Paul D. Miller) Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 12:08:03 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [Reader-list] Torturing Democracy Message-ID: <29644334.1243699684101.JavaMail.root@elwamui-muscovy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> I remember Bush saying a while ago "I want to be absolutely clear to the world - the U.S. does not torture." Maybe he should have asked Dick Cheney for a vocabulary update and called it "enhanced interrogation technique." Anyway, the debate in the U.S. and beyond about torture, sexual humiliation, and "waterboarding" (euphemism for simulated drowning), all just goes to show: if you can frame perspective, the vocabulary is simply something that deflects serious debate. It's such a strange thing to see... Interesting film... twisted topic. Watch the show: http://torturingdemocracy.org/ Paul aka Dj Spooky Everyone Should See "Torturing Democracy" Saturday 30 May 2009 by: Bill Moyers and Michael Winship, In all the recent debate over torture, many of our Beltway pundits and politicians have twisted themselves into verbal contortions to avoid using the word at all. During his speech to the conservative American Enterprise Institute last week - immediately on the heels of President Obama's address at the National Archives - former Vice President Dick Cheney used the euphemism "enhanced interrogation" a full dozen times. Smothering the reality of torture in euphemism, of course, has a political value, enabling its defenders to diminish the horror and possible illegality. It also gives partisans the opening they need to divert our attention by turning the future of the prison at Guantanamo Bay into a "wedge issue," as noted on the front page of Sunday's New York Times. According to the Times, "Armed with polling data that show a narrow majority of support for keeping the prison open and deep fear about the detainees, Republicans in Congress started laying plans even before the inauguration to make the debate over Guantanamo Bay a question of local community safety instead of one about national character and principles." No political party would dare make torture a cornerstone of its rejuvenation if people really understood what it is. And lest we forget, we're not just talking about waterboarding, itself a trivializing euphemism for drowning. If we want to know what torture is, and what it does to human beings, we have to look at it squarely, without flinching. That's just what a powerful and important film, seen by far too few Americans, does. "Torturing Democracy" was written and produced by one of America's outstanding documentary reporters, Sherry Jones. (Excerpts from the film are being shown on the current edition of Bill Moyers Journal on PBS - check local listings, or go to the program's web site at www.pbs.org/moyers, where you can be linked to the entire 90-minute documentary.) Sherry Jones, a longtime colleague, and the film were honored this week with the prestigious RFK Journalism Award from the Robert F. Kennedy Center for Justice and Human Rights. "Torturing Democracy" was cited for its "meticulous reporting," and described as "the definitive broadcast account of a deeply troubling chapter in recent American history." Unfortunately, as events demonstrate, the story is not yet history; the early chapters aren't even closed. Torture still is being defended as a matter of national security, although by law it is a war crime, with those who authorized and executed it liable for prosecution as war criminals. The war on terror sparked impatience with the rule of law - and fostered the belief within our government that the commander-in-chief had the right to ignore it. "Torturing Democracy" begins at 9/11 and recounts how the Bush White House and the Pentagon decided to make coercive detention and abusive interrogation the official US policy in the war on terror. In sometimes graphic detail, the documentary describes the experiences of several men who were held in custody, including Shafiq Rasul, Moazzam Begg and Bisher al-Rawi, all of whom eventually were released. Charges never were filed against them and no reason was ever given for their years in custody. The documentary traces how tactics meant to train American troops to survive enemy interrogations - the famous SERE program ("Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape") - became the basis for many of the methods employed by the CIA and by interrogators at Guantanamo and in Iraq, including waterboarding (which inflicts on its victims the terror of imminent death), sleep and sensory deprivation, shackling, caging, painful stress positions and sexual humiliation. "We have re-created our enemy's methodologies in Guantanamo," Malcolm Nance, former head of the Navy's SERE training program, says in "Torturing Democracy." He adds, "It will hurt us for decades to come. Decades. Our people will all be subjected to these tactics, because we have authorized them for the world now. How it got to Guantanamo is a crime and somebody needs to figure out who did it, how they did it, who authorized them to do it ... Because our servicemen will suffer for years." In addition to its depiction of brutality, "Torturing Democracy" also credits the brave few who stood up to those in power and said, "No." In Washington, there were officials of conviction horrified by unfolding events, including Alberto Mora, the Navy's top civilian lawyer, Maj. Gen. Thomas Romig, who served as judge advocate general of the US Army from 2001 to 2005 and Lt. Col. Stuart Couch, a former senior prosecutor with the Office of Military Commissions. Much has happened since the film's initial telecast on some public television stations last fall. Once-classified memos from the Bush administration have been released that reveal more details of the harsh techniques used against detainees whose guilt or innocence is still to be decided. President Obama has announced he will close Guantanamo by next January, with the specifics to come later in the summer. That was enough to set off hysteria among Democrats and Republicans alike who don't want the remaining 240 detainees on American soil - even in a super-maximum-security prison, the kind already holding hundreds of terrorist suspects. The president also triggered criticism from constitutional and civil liberties lawyers when he suggested that some detainees may be held indefinitely, without due process. But in an interview with Radio Free Europe this week, Gen. David Petraeus, the man in charge of the military's Central Command, praised the Guantanamo closing, saying it "sends an important message to the world" and will help advance America's strategy in Iraq and Afghanistan. In another revealing and disturbing development, the former chief of staff to former Secretary of State Colin Powell, Lawrence Wilkerson, has suggested what is possibly as scandalous a deception as the false case Bush and Cheney made for invading Iraq. Colonel Wilkerson writes that in their zeal to prove a link between al-Qaeda and Saddam Hussein during the months leading up to the Iraq war, one suspect held in Egypt, Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi, was water tortured until he falsely told the interrogators what they wanted to hear. That phony confession, which Wilkerson says was wrung from a broken man who simply wanted the torture to stop, was then used as evidence in Colin Powell's infamous address to the United Nations shortly before the invasion of Iraq in 2003. Powell says that everything in his speech was vetted by the CIA and that Wilkerson's allegation is only speculation. We'll never know the full story - al-Libi died three weeks ago in a Libyan prison. A suicide. Or so they say. No wonder so many Americans clamor for a truth commission that will get the facts and put them on the record, just as "Torturing Democracy" has done. Then we can judge for ourselves. As the editors of The Christian Century magazine wrote this week, "Convening a truth commission on torture would be embarrassing to the US in the short term, but in the long run it would demonstrate the strength of American democracy and confirm the nation's adherence to the rule of law.... Understandably, [the president] wants to turn the page on torture. But Americans should not turn the page until they know what is written on it." ------------ Watch "Torturing Democracy" here: http://torturingdemocracy.org/ Bill Moyers is managing editor and Michael Winship is senior writer of the weekly public affairs program Bill Moyers Journal, which airs Friday nights on PBS. Check local airtimes or comment at The Moyers Blog at www.pbs.org/moyers. From chandni.parekh at gmail.com Sun May 31 00:18:19 2009 From: chandni.parekh at gmail.com (Chandni Parekh) Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 00:18:19 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Internship in Kashmir, June 21-July 5 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >From Mohan Kumawat Dear Friends, Four Young students undertook a jouney in 2002 from their cozy homes and middle class schools to the relief camps of Gujarat. They went with the Anhad team to do relief work and documentation of the 2002 Gujarat carnage. What they saw and witnessed during that period totally shook them and they decided to form Youth for Peace to fight hatred and prejudices amongst youth. Using creative means Youth for Peace has reached out to thousands of young students across the country during the past 7 years since its inception. Youth for Peace is dedicated to the values of secularism, equality, peace, justice and communal harmony. Youth for Peace has organised major youth conventions, seminars, expeditions across India, national level competitions, has responded to Tsunami and to the earthquake in Kashmir. Youth for Peace team distributed relief material – blankets, warm clothes, tin sheets for relief shelters in Kupwara district of Kashmir immediately after the earthquake in 2005. In 2006, Youth for Peace (Anhad) sent a team of 30 students spent over a month working in villages in Uri and Tangdar. Youth for Peace(Anhad) is planning to send 10 -15 volunteers for 15 days to do internship in the Youth clubs and Women empowerment centres being run by Anhad in far flung villages of Uri and Tangdhar. The trip is also meant to help young people understand the life of ordinary Kashmiri people and understand the problems of living in a conflict zone. Interested volunteers will have to bear their own cost of traveling to Srinagar and back from there and contribute Rs 2000 towards food expenses. The volunteers should be able to rough it out and stay at very ordinary places arranged by organisers. Dates: June 21-July 5, 2009 Eligibility Criteria: 18-25 yrs. The candidates should write approx 500 words on why they should be considered for this internship programme. Last date for applying June 15, Send your applications on plane paper to : Youth for Peace(Anhad) , 23, Canning Lane, New Delhi-110001. Phone :23070740/ 22 or mail it to youthfpeace at gmail.com With regards Mansi Sharma Seema Duhan From yasir.media at gmail.com Sun May 31 00:34:55 2009 From: yasir.media at gmail.com (=?windows-1256?B?eWFzaXIgfu3HINPR?=) Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 00:04:55 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Peaceful Anti-War Protestors Harrassed & Arrested ! In-Reply-To: <5af37bb0905301204m34f6e49dq5ea9a0e02a0d2091@mail.gmail.com> References: <5af37bb0905301047m6eb01662wb2f7e6459379460c@mail.gmail.com> <5af37bb0905301135q233f8785t167082c2dd4abeef@mail.gmail.com> <5af37bb0905301204m34f6e49dq5ea9a0e02a0d2091@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5af37bb0905301204t18c2f8banc7c2cbd2b0a55bfe@mail.gmail.com>  People's Resistance  ** Peaceful Anti-War Protestors  ** Harrassed & Arrested ! Saturday 30 May 2009 Karachi, Pakistan *People's Resistance*, a civil society coalition of students, professional and ordinary citizens strongly condemns police violence and arrest of peaceful anti-war protestors in Quaidabad, Karachi today, on grounds that the right to peaceful dissent has been violated. The march had been organized by The Jang Mukhalif Committee (Anti War Committee) comprising several local groups that have been protesting the army operation since August 2008. The committee included the Bajaur Committee of Peoples Resistance, Labor Party Pakistan, International Socialists, Swat Quami Ittehad, Anjumani-i-Buner, and many neighbourhood groups. At 6:15pm a disproportionately large police force, several hundred in number, baton-charged the protestors and even the cart-pullers and other people present in Quaidabad and later near Gul Ahmed Chowrangi. Fifteen protestors were arrested and shifted to the Shah Latif Police Station and Quaidabad Police Chowki. Panic spread in the area. Seven of the fifteen people - the exact number is unclear - were arrested from Quaidabad Chowk, in front of Hamid Hospital, and taken to Shah Latif Thana. After the arrests, the police lathi charged and dispersed the crowd.  The vicious and prompt action has been videotaped. Rehana of International Socialists climbed into the policewagon as they were taking Ali Hassan, Riaz, Salaam, and others away.  Later Adaner and Shaukat were picked up and taken to a Police Chowki, while they were only standing around. They were later brought to Shah Latif.  Later, a few more people who were protesting the arrests were picked up from Gul Ahmed Chowrangi, and taken to a police station The update from Tanvir who is at the Police Station is that they have issued FIRs under Sectioin 188 of the PPC. But they have also said the decision will be made by higher ups.  It looks likely that they will be in the Police Station all night long. Shah Latif Thana is beyond Landhi, on the right, on Shahrah e Faisal a couple of kilometers past FAST Institute.  There are reports that they may be moved to anothet police station during the night. Those arrested include Dr. Riaz, Ali Hassan, Rehana Channar, Ali Leghari, ,Asim Jaan of International Socialists, Adaner, Shujaat Zaheer Khan and Salam of Labour Party of Pakistan, and Shoukat from Jang Mukhalif Committee. Rehana Channar was later released. The protest was held to demand that the government halt its operation in Swat, Dir, Buner, and Waziristan. As the government tries to divert attention towards just relief efforts, the Committee presses that the war, the root cause of this immense human suffering, must be stopped. According to Sartaj of International Socialists, “the operation has resulted in the large scale expulsion of more than 2 million people from their homes.  These people demand a peaceful return to their homes and lands and relief work will only provide them with temporary solutions.”  Moreover, he states that there are no official counts of civilian deaths, estimated in the thousands, and there is absolutely no hope that these people will ever be compensated for their loss. Salaam, a member of the committee, says that the Taliban, the target of this operation, will not be eliminated by military heavy handedness; if anything, the operation will exacerbate the presence of these militias which will regroup and find new recruits. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- People Resistance strongly condemns the brutal suppression of Peaceful Dissent and violent harrassment on ordinary Citizens on the part of the concerned authorities, and demands the Immediate Release of those arrested. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From pankhuree at hotmail.com Sun May 31 04:16:58 2009 From: pankhuree at hotmail.com (pankhuree dube) Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 22:46:58 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Allah Hafiz to Khuda Hafiz In-Reply-To: <578648.10853.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <578648.10853.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hello Mr. Kaul, Thanks for sharing this. I recently finished a wonderful novel, Mohammed Hanif's A Case of Exploding Mangoes and it covers the same issue. Aside from "khuda," Hanif writes that Zia considered the word "rabba" objectionable because of its Sufi origins. I found Hanif's novel engrossing, funny and informative. With an unsubtle nod to Marquéz, the author used the assassination of Pakistani dictator Zia to show how truth is more outrageous than fiction and waxed-mustache-wearing dictators--whether Latin American or Pakistani--are dangerously ridiculous. No detail was superfluous. Every incident and character was tied back to the dénouement in a witty, engaging manner. As I was reading it, I began looking up the historical events it documents: Joanne Herring, the Texan bombshell with a bleeding heart for the Afghani mujahedeen, the multiple theories of Zia's plane crash, the disappearance of the black box from the crash remains, the role the Bhuttos--including the late Benazir's brother and father--played. I couldn't believe some of the most unbelievable parts of the books were not made up. Investigations into Zia's death were quickly wrapped up much as the investigation into Benazir's assassination still leaves more questions than answers. My guess is that current and future events will furnish Hanif with a wealth of material upon which he can exercise his ironic literary genius. Pankhuree > Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 05:29:32 -0700 > From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Subject: [Reader-list] Allah Hafiz to Khuda Hafiz > > A composition sung by the legendary Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan is a favourite of mine. It goes: > > " koi toh hai jo nizaam e hastee chalaa rahaa hai > vohi Khudah hai" > > ( there is someone, has to be, who runs the matrices of Being > that one, is The One, that is God) > > Just a few days back, on one of the Pakistani TV channels, I heard it sung by some other singer. > > The word "Khudah" had been replaced by "Allah". > > An unppealing (to me) substitution. The power in the affirmation seemed to have been lost. The flavour was insipid. > > I digress. > > Kshmendra > > > "Allah Hafiz to Khuda Hafiz" > Nadeem F. PARACHA > Sunday, 24 May, 2009 > > The first time Allah Hafiz was used in public was in 1985 when a famous TV host, a frequent sight on PTV during the Zia era, signed off her otherwise secular show with a firm ‘Allah Hafiz.’ > > As most Pakistanis over the ages of six and seven would remember, before the now ubiquitous ‘Allah Hafiz’ came ‘Khuda Hafiz’. > > The immediate history of the demise of Khuda Hafiz can be traced back to a mere six to seven years in the past. It was in Karachi some time in 2002 when a series of banners started appearing across Sharea Faisal. Each banner had two messages. The first one advised Pakistani Muslims to stop addressing God by the informal ‘Tu’ and instead address him as ‘Aap’ (the respectful way of saying ‘you’ in Urdu). The second message advised Pakistanis to replace the term Khuda Hafiz with Allah Hafiz. > > The banners were produced and installed by Islamic organisations associated with a famous mosque in Karachi. Ever since the 1980s, this institution had been a bastion of leading puritanical doctrines of Islam. Many of the institution’s scholars were, in one way or the other, also related to the Islamic intelligentsia sympathetic to the Taliban version of political Islam and of other similar fundamentalist outfits. > > However, one just cannot study the Allah Hafiz phenomenon through what happened in 2002. This phenomenon has a direct link with the disastrous history of cultural casualties Pakistan has steadily been suffering for over thirty years now. Beyond the 2002 banner incident, whose two messages were then duly taken up by a series of Tableeghi Jamaat personnel and as well as trendsetting living room Islamic evangelists, a lot of groundwork had already taken place to culturally convert the largely pluralistic and religiously tolerant milieu of Pakistan into a singular concentration of Muslims following the “correct” version of Islam. > > The overriding reasons for this were foremost political, as General Ziaul Haq and his politico-religious cohorts went about setting up madressahs in an attempt to harden the otherwise softer strain of faith that a majority of Pakistanis followed so they could be prepared for the grand ‘Afghan jihad’ against the atheistic Soviet Union with a somewhat literalist and highly politicised version of Islam. The above process not only politically radicalised sections of Pakistani society, its impact was apparent on culture at large as well. > > For example, as bars and cinemas started closing down, young men and women, who had found space in these places to simply meet up, were forced to move to shady cafes, restaurants and parks which, by the mid-1980s, too started to be visited by cops and fanatical moral squads called the ‘Allah Tigers’, who ran around harassing couples in these spaces, scolding them for going against Islam, or, on most occasions, simply extorting money from the shaken couples through blackmail. > > Then, getting a blanket ideological and judicial cover by the Zia dictatorship, the cops started to harass almost any couple riding a motorbike, a car or simply sitting at the beach. Without even asking whether the woman was the guy’s sister or mother (on many occasions they were!), the cops asked for the couples’ marriage certificate! Failing to produce one (which in most cases they couldn’t), hefty sums of money were extorted as the couples were threatened to be sent to jail under the dreadful Hudood Ordinances. The same one the Musharraf government eventually scrapped. > > Some of these horrendous practices were duly stopped during the Benazir Bhutto and Nawaz Sharif governments in the 1990s, but the cat had long been set among the pigeons. Encouraged by their initial successes in the 1980s, Islamist culture-evangelists became a lot more aggressive in the 1990s. Drawing room and TV evangelists went about attempting to construct a “true” Islamic society, and at least one of their prescriptions was to replace the commonly used Khuda Hafiz with Allah Hafiz. > > This was done because these crusading men and women believed that once they had convinced numerous Pakistanis to follow the faith by adorning a long beard and hijab, the words Khuda Hafiz would not seem appropriate coming out from the mouths of such Islamic-looking folks. They believed that Khuda can mean any God, whereas the Muslims’ God was Allah. Some observers suggest that since many non-Muslims residing in Pakistan too had started to use Khuda Hafiz, this incensed the crusaders who thought that non-Muslim Pakistanis were trying to adopt Islamic gestures only to pollute them. The first time Allah Hafiz was used in public was in 1985 when a famous TV host, a frequent sight on PTV during the Zia era, signed off her otherwise secular show with a firm ‘Allah Hafiz.’ However, even though some Islamic preachers continued the trend in the 1990s, it did not trickle down to the mainstream until the early 2000s. As society continued to collapse inwards > — especially the urban middle class — the term Allah Hafiz started being used as if Pakistanis had always said Allah Hafiz. > > So much so that today, if you are to bid farewell by saying Khuda Hafiz, you will either generate curious facial responses, or worse, get a short lecture on why you should always say Allah Hafiz instead — a clear case of glorified cultural isolationism to ‘protect’ one’s comfort zone of myopia from the influential and uncontrollable trends of universal pluralism? > > I’m afraid this is the case. > > Copyright © 2009 - Dawn Media Group > > http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/columnists/16-nadeem-f-paracha-allah-hafiz-to-khuda-hafiz-hs-07 > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail® has a new way to see what's up with your friends. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/WhatsNew?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_WhatsNew1_052009 From navayana at gmail.com Sun May 31 10:23:51 2009 From: navayana at gmail.com (Navayana Publishing) Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 10:23:51 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 4 June 2009: Public Discussion on "Internationalising Caste", New Delhi Message-ID: CACIM and Navayana invite you to a public discussion on INTERNATIONALISING CASTE EVERYBODY’S ISSUE? OR NOBODY’S ISSUE? *June 4, Thursday, 2009 * 3.30 – 6.30 pm, India Social Institute , New Delhi Caste has killed public spirit. Caste has destroyed the sense of public charity. Caste has made public opinion impossible… Virtue has become caste-ridden and morality has become caste-bound. --B.R. Ambedkar, in Annihilation of Caste, 1936 The efforts to internationalise the issue of caste-based discrimination against the 260 million Dalits in South Asia and treat it on a par with racial discrimination, which had received a boost in 2001 at the United Nations World Conference Against Racism (WCAR) held in Durban, suffered a serious setback at the Durban Review Conference held recently (April 20–24, 2009) in Geneva. While in 2001, WCAR had discussed caste euphemistically as “discrimination based on work and descent”, in line with terminology devised by the UN’s Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination (CERD), the outcome document of the Durban Review Conference (DRC) has evaded even an allusion to caste. More than a month after the Geneva event, there’s almost no public debate in India on the issue. Dalits have tried raising the issue of caste with various UN forums for over three decades now. The first effort at lobbying with the UN resulted in Dr Laxmi Berwa, an expatriate Dalit from the United States, presenting a testimony before the UN Sub-Commission on Human Rights in Geneva on 31 August 1982. • What is shocking has been the near-total absence of any debate in the Indian public sphere about the setback to the figxht against caste at the international level. • Why does caste continue to be an issue raised only by Dalits today? What is the role of civil societal groups in this? • Why it is that society remains indifferent to atrocities on Dalits—even though every hour two Dalits are assaulted, every day three Dalit women are raped, two Dalits are murdered and two Dalit houses burnt? • Why have NGOs come to dominate the UN interventions on caste? Are social/ political/ activist movements being left behind? To debate and raise awareness on these issues and to broaden the scope of the global effort at fighting caste, we invite you to three sessions of debate and discussion: THE EXPERIENCE OF INTERNATIONALISING CASTE: Ashok Bharti (National Confrence of Dalit Organisations, NACDOR), Paul Divakar, National Council for Dalit Human Rights NCDHR; Colin Gonsalves (Human Rights Law Network, HRLN) CASTE—THE MEDIA’S COMPLICITY AND SILENCE: Neelabh Mishra (Outlook Hindi) and Pamela Philipose (Senior Journalist) CASTE AND OTHER QUESTIONS: RACISM, COMMUNALISM, IMPERIALISM: Praful Bidwai (Senior Journalist), Annie Namala (Director, Centre for Programming Inclusion and Equity), Surinder Jodhka (Director, Indian Institute of Dalit Studies) Moderator: S. Anand, Navayana Each panel will be for about 40 minutes, followed by 10 minutes of discussion. After the concluding panel, it will be an Open House. Tea will be served at 3.30 p.m. For further details contact Madhuresh at Cacim 9818905316 (www.cacim.net) or Anand at Navayana 9971433117 (www.navayana.org). Click here for ISI location: http://www.isidelhi.org.in/contactus.php#location A READY-RECKONER OF ONLINE REFERENCES AND RESOURCES: 1. The official Durban Review Conference website [ http://www.un.org/durbanreview2009/]. 2. Human Rights Watch on how and why DRC failed on caste. The site also offers extensive background and position papers. [ http://www.un.org/durbanreview2009/] 3. International Dalit Solidarity Network website. Offers joint statement by IDSN, HRW and NCDHR; plus a press kit. [ http://www.idsn.org/news-resources/idsn-news/read/article/durban-review-conference-break-the-un-silence-on-caste-discrimination/128/ ] 4. Caste and the World, S. Anand, The Hindu, May 24, 2009. [ http://www.hindu.com/mag/2009/05/24/stories/2009052450180500.htm] 5. Caste: Racism in all but name? Shobhan Saxena’s Times of India report on DRC, 26 Apr 2009. [ http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Deep-Focus/Caste-Racism-in-all-but-name/articleshow/4449716.cms ] 6. Caste Out, Yet Again, EPW editorial on Durban Review Conference; May16 2009. [http://epw.in/epw/uploads/articles/13508.pdf} 7. Seminar, the monthly journal, devoted an entire issue (Dec 2001) to the Durban WCAR conference of 2001. Features articles by Martin Macwan, Kancha Ilaiah, Gopal Guru, Dipankar Gupta, Soli Sorabjee and others. [ http://www.india-seminar.com/2001/508.htm] 8. Race and Caste, Andre Beteille, The Hindu, March 10, 2001. A controversial article that triggered a huge debate. [ http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/2001/03/10/stories/05102523.htm] 9. Race and caste: A Response to Andre Beteille by Kalpana Kannabiran, August 2001 [http://www.pucl.org/reports/National/2001/beteille.htm]. Also see this letter to The Hindu. [ http://www.hindu.com/2001/03/14/stories/05141306.htm] 10. India’s Apartheid, Rajeev Dhavan, The Hindu, August 24, 2001 [ http://www.hindu.com/2001/03/14/stories/05141306.htm] 11. Is Durban the answer? Vir Singh, The Hindu, September 02, 2001 [ http://www.hindu.com/2001/09/02/stories/1302054a.htm] 12. Caste, race and sociologists – I, Gail Omvedt, The Hindu, October 18, 2001 [http://www.hindu.com/2001/10/18/stories/05182524.htm] 13. Caste, race and sociologists – II, Gail Omvedt, The Hindu, October 19, 2001 [http://www.hindu.com/2001/10/19/stories/05192524.htm] 14. Caste, Race and the Indian Anthropologists, Amarjit Singh, ambedkar.org [http://www.ambedkar.org/WCAR/CasteRace.htm] 15. The Durban dip can cleanse a billion sins, ChandraBhan Prasad, Aug 2001. [http://www.ambedkar.org/chandrabhan/TheDurban.htm] 16. En Route to Durban: Thoughts on Caste and Race, Vijay Parshad, n.d. [ http://illvox.org/2007/06/en-route-to-durban-thoughts-on-caste-and-race/] 17. CPI(M) official position statement on WCAR, Durban; 3 August 2001 [ http://cpim.org/statement/2001/2001_Aug_03_durban_conference.htm] 18. Caste and the U.N. meet, Kancha Ilaiah, The Hindu, August 21, 2001 [ http://www.hinduonnet.com/2001/08/21/stories/05212523.htm] 19. Caste and Race, Naunidhi Kaur, Frontline, 6 July 2001 [ http://www.hindu.com/fline/fl1813/18130950.htm] 20. PUCL’s special focus on the 2001 Durban countdown debates. [ http://www.pucl.org/reports/National/2001/debate.htm] WWW.NAVAYANA.ORG From sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in Sun May 31 14:33:38 2009 From: sub_sengupta at yahoo.co.in (subhrodip sengupta) Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 14:33:38 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Murdered woman appears in court in malda, WB. Message-ID: <491202.6854.qm@web94704.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Just follow this link. A little fuzzy, but intersting. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Murdered-woman-appears-in-court/articleshow/4600050.cms Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with Yahoo! India Travel http://in.travel.yahoo.com/ From 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com Sun May 31 17:45:21 2009 From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com (Taha Mehmood) Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 13:15:21 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] News Items posted on the net on Multipurpose National Identity Cards-118 In-Reply-To: <136867.89614.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <136867.89614.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <65be9bf40905310515v26cffdeaq9fef6f176c618fb3@mail.gmail.com> Just wondering... 1. Why there seems to be a sense of outrage on this list whenever, someone questions or criticizes but do not provide any alternatives, solutions or answers? The underlying assumption seems to be that only those who know the answer must question or could question?? Where is it written that responsibility of providing answers must lie with the questioner? and more importantly I would like to know of any instances or institutions where such a practice is routine? 2. Why there seems to be a sense that repeated questioning about something does not serve any useful purpose? or could be dangerous...Are we persuaded to confirm??? 3. There seems to be a prevalence of childlike enthusiasm on behalf of list members to act as policy makers with delusions of real power and authority that not only one should not question if one does not know an answer but one must also know the exact manner in which such an answer, if known, could be framed and implemented. Do we have a situation of conflicting roles on this list or what??? Are we not trying to act here merely in the capacity of informed citizens, whose role is to just question and debate without bothering too much for any real, practical, pragmatic, feasible answers??? Arre bhai we do not know an answer, that is why we question, no??? From indersalim at gmail.com Sun May 31 18:12:26 2009 From: indersalim at gmail.com (Inder Salim) Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 18:12:26 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Massacres - Part 3- ..present has a corollary in the past .. In-Reply-To: References: <6b79f1a70905262137h5ec0540eq5efa8bb79615fac1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70905310542r4422fbcatb8a25a41d97066ad@mail.gmail.com> Dear LA already written words are written again to write anything, history or a poem or a novel, or psychology . and so there is some deep subjectivity which plays a vital role while we feel handling one category at one time, but i guess that is not so. ..... t there is always some imaginative fantasy in history books as well, that is perhaps, because language has the power to fools us, although unwittingly often but it naturally distorts the facts. It is not surprising that we have twisted sense of the other, and about ourselves. the reality will be always a mirage.... reading history from paintings and other sculptures is also full of loopholes, but we are always free to interpret the written word or any alternative to that. I guess the whole exercise is meant to sensitize the mind, to emancipate the person who is involved in the passion of reading history, but unfortunately, we have always an axe to grind Who are these Islamistis who have come to Kashmir. We forget that Islam was already a living tradition in the neighboring areas /countires for more than 500 years when it entered Kashmir. As we know all our history is full of wars, and oppressive regimes that followed each war. Is it not a fact that the present culture which we celebrate is full of the horror stories of that past, Even in myth we have nothing but wars. Take Ramayana or Mahabharata, And to believe that Buddhist monks were peaceful while dealing with freshly arrived Vaishnavites is always a fantasy. Late Moti Lal Saqi, the learned scholar told me once that these Monks used to kill the outsiders scholars if they failed in the game of discourse... it is perhaps, our recent history that we are too concerned with....about kashmir or anything that is related to our respective pasts.? But how many times do you think we remember our own near and dear dead ones in a calendar year ? James Joyce in Ullysses ; The problem of Hamlet is his personal. with love is . On Sat, May 30, 2009 at 7:04 PM, Lalit Ambardar wrote: > > True, under normal circumstances it doesn’t make any sense to recall the horrors of the past. Kashmiri Hindu Pandits had suffered persecution for centuries. Yet they made a choice in 1947 when they choose to bury the past & responded with great fervour to the call of ‘Naya Kashmir’ ( New Kashmir) & stood firmly against the onslaught of the Pakistan sponsored jihadis under the banner ‘hamlavar khabardar, hum Kashmiri hain tayyar’ ( oh invader, beware , we Kashmiris are prepared) .It was then the Mahatma saw a ray of hope in Kashmir. > > But now when even the committed Islamists, not to talk of the so called liberal /secular mind set, are allowed to get away with the claim that Kashmir continues to be a ‘cradle of secularism’ when the minority Hindu Pandits are living as refugees in their own country ever since their ethnic cleansing in the valley two decades ago at the hands of the pan Islamists seeking secession from India, the present finds a natural corollary in the past. > Regards all > LA > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> From: shuddha at sarai.net >> Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 12:31:18 +0530 >> To: pawan.durani at gmail.com >> CC: reader-list at sarai.net >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Massacres - Part 3 >> >> Pawan, >> >> For every one instance of assaults on Hindus by Muslims that you >> post, someone else may be able to find one, two, three, four >> instances of assaults on Muslims by Hindus. And none would be false, >> neither your claims, nor theirs. And then you would find more, and >> then they would find more, and life on this list would continue to >> spiral on to a vulgar exhibitionism of everybody's agony and mutual >> hatred. We've been down that road before. Who, after all, has not had >> a hard time in the twentieth century? Which identity cannot claim for >> itself the mantle of the victim? >> >> All this would only demonstrate what we know only too well, that >> human beings are vile, that religions (all religions, without >> exception, and modern ideologies, offer rationalizations for >> gratuitous acts of violence). So, what does that achieve ? I think >> nothing. >> >> Can we move on from this, and explore things that are new, that are >> surprising, that are discoveries, that extend our appreciation of our >> histories instead of trading the same monotonous charges, can we >> sometimes locate the occasional highlights that still continue to >> shine in the fragile house of the human spirit? >> >> Or must we remain forever trapped in this cycle of proving who had a >> worse twentieth century than whom? Speaking for myself, I have better >> things to do than be caught being a spectator to this kind of sado- >> masochism of the spirit. I hope I am not the only one who feels this >> way. >> >> Shuddha >> >> On 27-May-09, at 10:07 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: >> >> > Sanity and Madness on 13th July, 1931 >> > >> > The communal pogrom against Kashmiri Hindus and Khatri traders was a >> > pre-planned move by the leaders of 13th July agitation and their >> > sponsors - the British Political Department. >> > >> > Hindus became victims of the mad frenzy in Vicharnag, Maharajganj, >> > Khankah Mohalla, in Srinagar city and at Shopian and Anantnag towns. >> > >> > The events which took place in Khankah mohalla reveal an interesting >> > pattern. While the members of the majority community displayed strong >> > communal passions when they came to attack Pandits, the immediate >> > neighbours played a positive role. >> > >> > Five Pandit families lived in Khankah mohalla, opposite the Kali >> > Shrine. These families included three families of Kouls - Ram Nath, >> > Nilakanth and Rughnath. They were all cousins. The other two families >> > - Niranjan Nath Wali and Dina Nath Wali lived jointly. >> > >> > Soon after looting Khatri shops in Maharajgunj the big mob turned to >> > Khankah Mohalla to attack Kashmiri Hindus. The neighbours of the >> > Pandit families - Gh. Mohammad Qalinbaf and Ahad Sakka (water carrier) >> > rose to the occasion and decided not to betray their neighbours with >> > whom they had been living through generations. At the suggestion of >> > these neighbours the Kouls hid themselves in attic storey (Brer Kani) >> > of the house. Sakka had asked Kouls to throw some household refuse on >> > the verandah and keep windows and doors open to mislead the rioters. >> > The Pandits, on hearing about the atrocities in other parts of the >> > city were gripped with fear. Ram Nath recalls, "we tied our womenfolk >> > with rope lest they escape out of fear. We had also decided to poison >> > them to death in case an eventuality of kidnapping/molestation arose". >> > >> > When looters came, the families of Ahad Sakka and Qalinbaff told them >> > that Pandits fled from their home on learning that the mob was on way >> > to attack them. To keep rioters in good humour, Sakka and Qalinbaff >> > mockingly abused Pandits and succeeded in turning the mob away. The >> > mob stood for 25-30 minutes at Kaul's house. >> > >> > Neighbours of Walis also tried to save Walis but the mob had its way. >> > Niranjan Nath Wali was an affluent person. Some people in the mob owed >> > him money. They succeeded in instigating the frenzied mob to attack >> > Niranjan and loot his property. >> > >> > After the looters left, Kouls shifted to the house of Ahad Sakka and >> > stayed there for three days. This was the fortnight when Hindus >> > observe shraddas of their departed near and dear ones. Members of the >> > Koul family would stealthily during the night go to their home, >> > prepare food and come back. At Sakka's home they took only pears and >> > water. >> > >> > 3 days later Kouls shifted to Chinkral mohalla first and later to >> > Sathu Barbarshah where Ramnath's aunt lived. Nilakanth Koul served in >> > Police Department. >> > >> > He shifted his family to police lines. Such was the terror that >> > Ramnath's family was brought back to Chinkral Mohalla in a special >> > police van, nicknamed by locals as 'Rat Trap'. The Kouls never went >> > back to live in the Mohalla where they had lived for centuries. They >> > sold their house to Gh. Mohammad Qalinbaf in 1932. This in itself is >> > an indicator of the terror created by the events of 13th July. Kashmir >> > Sentinel >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: >> >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >> Raqs Media Collective >> shuddha at sarai.net >> www.sarai.net >> www.raqsmediacollective.net >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: > > _________________________________________________________________ > Drag n’ drop—Get easy photo sharing with Windows Live™ Photos. > > http://www.microsoft.com/india/windows/windowslive/photos.aspx > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sun May 31 19:26:23 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 06:56:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Allah Hafiz to Khuda Hafiz Message-ID: <574838.89513.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Ms Dube   Thanks for sharing your comments on "A Case of Exploding Mangoes".   Since I am from Kashmir, there is a connection (for me) with the word "Khudah" which was the vernacular usage. "Allah" was mostly confined to the mosque. It might have changed now.   In Urdu Poetry too, the classical usage has pre-dominantly been of "Khudah". That has undergone a change.    In fact I have been intrigued about how the sound "Allah" will lend itself to Kashmiri Poetry. Words have a flavour.   "Rabba" that you mention is embedded (if I am not wrong) in Punjabi and Saraiki and in the connected "Sufi" traditions.   It would be interesting to know if Sindhi (Sindh seeing the first Arab invasion) has ever favoured "Khudah".   In Kerala, with its historic interaction with Arabs, the word "Khudah" is somewhat alien for the Muslims. It is "Allah". In fact Kerala Muslims in conversation (especially with Non-Muslims) might use "Daivyam" (Sanskrit) also.   Language is an intrinsic part of our cultural psyche. Languages evolve. Does the 'thrusting in" or "forcing upon" of words create a "trauma"? I think it does. In India we saw the bringing in of divides by trying to force "Hindi-isation".         Incidentally you might have read about Mohammed Hanif having been recently harassed at Auckland Airport http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/World/Pakistan/Pak-writer-harassed-at-NZ-airport/articleshow/4549298.cms   Agree with you that the recent events in Pakistan and what will ensue from those as reactions or repurcussions will provide enough 'material' for writers. That it is supposedly the Taliban who are being massacred is a political-irony in itself.   Kshmendra --- On Sun, 5/31/09, pankhuree dube wrote: From: pankhuree dube Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Allah Hafiz to Khuda Hafiz To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com, "Sarai" Date: Sunday, May 31, 2009, 4:16 AM #yiv522331362 .hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #yiv522331362 { font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;} Hello Mr. Kaul, Thanks for sharing this. I recently finished a wonderful novel, Mohammed Hanif's A Case of Exploding Mangoes and it covers the same issue. Aside from "khuda," Hanif writes that Zia considered the word "rabba" objectionable because of its Sufi origins.       I found Hanif's novel engrossing, funny and informative. With an unsubtle nod to Marquéz, the author used the assassination of Pakistani dictator Zia to show how truth is more outrageous than fiction and waxed-mustache-wearing dictators--whether Latin American or Pakistani--are dangerously ridiculous. No detail was superfluous. Every incident and character was tied back to the dénouement in a witty, engaging manner. As I was reading it, I began looking up the historical events it documents: Joanne Herring, the Texan bombshell with a bleeding heart for the Afghani mujahedeen, the multiple theories of Zia's plane crash, the disappearance of the black box from the crash remains, the role the Bhuttos--including the late Benazir's brother and father--played. I couldn't believe some of the most unbelievable parts of the books were not made up. Investigations into Zia's death were quickly wrapped up much as the investigation into Benazir's assassination still leaves more questions than answers. My guess is that current and future events will furnish Hanif with a wealth of material upon which he can exercise his ironic literary genius.  Pankhuree   > Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 05:29:32 -0700 > From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Subject: [Reader-list] Allah Hafiz to Khuda Hafiz > > A composition sung by the legendary Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan is a favourite of mine. It goes: >   > " koi toh hai jo nizaam e hastee chalaa rahaa hai >   vohi Khudah hai" >   > ( there is someone, has to be, who runs the matrices of Being >   that one, is The One, that is God) >   > Just a few days back, on one of the Pakistani TV channels, I heard it sung by some other singer. >   > The word "Khudah" had been replaced by "Allah". >   > An unppealing (to me) substitution. The power in the affirmation seemed to have been lost. The flavour was insipid. >   > I digress. >   > Kshmendra >   >   > "Allah Hafiz to Khuda Hafiz" > Nadeem F. PARACHA > Sunday, 24 May, 2009 >   > The first time Allah Hafiz was used in public was in 1985 when a famous TV host, a frequent sight on PTV during the Zia era, signed off her otherwise secular show with a firm ‘Allah Hafiz.’ >   > As most Pakistanis over the ages of six and seven would remember, before the now ubiquitous ‘Allah Hafiz’ came ‘Khuda Hafiz’. > > The immediate history of the demise of Khuda Hafiz can be traced back to a mere six to seven years in the past. It was in Karachi some time in 2002 when a series of banners started appearing across Sharea Faisal. Each banner had two messages. The first one advised Pakistani Muslims to stop addressing God by the informal ‘Tu’ and instead address him as ‘Aap’ (the respectful way of saying ‘you’ in Urdu). The second message advised Pakistanis to replace the term Khuda Hafiz with Allah Hafiz. > > The banners were produced and installed by Islamic organisations associated with a famous mosque in Karachi. Ever since the 1980s, this institution had been a bastion of leading puritanical doctrines of Islam. Many of the institution’s scholars were, in one way or the other, also related to the Islamic intelligentsia sympathetic to the Taliban version of political Islam and of other similar fundamentalist outfits. > > However, one just cannot study the Allah Hafiz phenomenon through what happened in 2002. This phenomenon has a direct link with the disastrous history of cultural casualties Pakistan has steadily been suffering for over thirty years now. Beyond the 2002 banner incident, whose two messages were then duly taken up by a series of Tableeghi Jamaat personnel and as well as trendsetting living room Islamic evangelists, a lot of groundwork had already taken place to culturally convert the largely pluralistic and religiously tolerant milieu of Pakistan into a singular concentration of Muslims following the “correct” version of Islam. > > The overriding reasons for this were foremost political, as General Ziaul Haq and his politico-religious cohorts went about setting up madressahs in an attempt to harden the otherwise softer strain of faith that a majority of Pakistanis followed so they could be prepared for the grand ‘Afghan jihad’ against the atheistic Soviet Union with a somewhat literalist and highly politicised version of Islam. The above process not only politically radicalised sections of Pakistani society, its impact was apparent on culture at large as well. > > For example, as bars and cinemas started closing down, young men and women, who had found space in these places to simply meet up, were forced to move to shady cafes, restaurants and parks which, by the mid-1980s, too started to be visited by cops and fanatical moral squads called the ‘Allah Tigers’, who ran around harassing couples in these spaces, scolding them for going against Islam, or, on most occasions, simply extorting money from the shaken couples through blackmail. > > Then, getting a blanket ideological and judicial cover by the Zia dictatorship, the cops started to harass almost any couple riding a motorbike, a car or simply sitting at the beach. Without even asking whether the woman was the guy’s sister or mother (on many occasions they were!), the cops asked for the couples’ marriage certificate! Failing to produce one (which in most cases they couldn’t), hefty sums of money were extorted as the couples were threatened to be sent to jail under the dreadful Hudood Ordinances. The same one the Musharraf government eventually scrapped. > > Some of these horrendous practices were duly stopped during the Benazir Bhutto and Nawaz Sharif governments in the 1990s, but the cat had long been set among the pigeons. Encouraged by their initial successes in the 1980s, Islamist culture-evangelists became a lot more aggressive in the 1990s. Drawing room and TV evangelists went about attempting to construct a “true” Islamic society, and at least one of their prescriptions was to replace the commonly used Khuda Hafiz with Allah Hafiz. > > This was done because these crusading men and women believed that once they had convinced numerous Pakistanis to follow the faith by adorning a long beard and hijab, the words Khuda Hafiz would not seem appropriate coming out from the mouths of such Islamic-looking folks. They believed that Khuda can mean any God, whereas the Muslims’ God was Allah. Some observers suggest that since many non-Muslims residing in Pakistan too had started to use Khuda Hafiz, this incensed the crusaders who thought that non-Muslim Pakistanis were trying to adopt Islamic gestures only to pollute them. The first time Allah Hafiz was used in public was in 1985 when a famous TV host, a frequent sight on PTV during the Zia era, signed off her otherwise secular show with a firm ‘Allah Hafiz.’ However, even though some Islamic preachers continued the trend in the 1990s, it did not trickle down to the mainstream until the early 2000s. As society continued to collapse inwards > — especially the urban middle class — the term Allah Hafiz started being used as if Pakistanis had always said Allah Hafiz. > > So much so that today, if you are to bid farewell by saying Khuda Hafiz, you will either generate curious facial responses, or worse, get a short lecture on why you should always say Allah Hafiz instead — a clear case of glorified cultural isolationism to ‘protect’ one’s comfort zone of myopia from the influential and uncontrollable trends of universal pluralism? > > I’m afraid this is the case. >   > Copyright © 2009 - Dawn Media Group >   > http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/columnists/16-nadeem-f-paracha-allah-hafiz-to-khuda-hafiz-hs-07 >   >   >   > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Hotmail® has a new way to see what's up with your friends. Check it out. From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sun May 31 19:35:48 2009 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 07:05:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] "Khuda Hafiz versus Allah Hafiz: a critique" By Mahfuzur Rahman Message-ID: <262397.10069.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Published in the 1-15 Mar 2004 print edition of MG   ISLAMIC PERSPECTIVES "Khuda Hafiz versus Allah Hafiz: a critique" By Mahfuzur Rahman On a trip from Dhaka to north Bangladesh during my recent visit to the country, I was struck by two phenomena. First, there was something unusual about some of the mileposts along the highway. In many places, as we headed for the Jamuna, they would often have a painted-over strip, a blank. The name of a particular destination has been systematically erased. You guessed right. The blank space, staring ever so briefly as you sped past it, once spelled out Bangabandhu Setu. The sign was gone, moved and painted over, almost certainly at state expense. How amazing, though, that a dumb, blank milepost could still speak volumes! It is, however, a second phenomenon that I have chosen as the theme of the following paragraphs: many signboards, especially those at the boundaries of local administrative districts, that not so long ago wished Khuda Hafiz to the exiting travellers, now say Allah Hafiz instead. I, of course, never doubted the sincerity of those who put up the slogans invoking God's protection on roads infested with unsafe automobiles and marauding drivers. I am also sure the Supreme Being now being called upon, in fresh paint, to protect the lives of the users of those thoroughfares is the same One whose name used to be invoked on the old signs. Why then the change? Is there something of significance in the changeover, also made at considerable cost, from Khuda Hafiz to Allah Hafiz, just as there is meaning, albeit of a different nature, to the erased milepost signs? Or is this another exercise in triviality in which we as a nation seem to excel? I am not sure, but let us explore.   A great wave of Allah Hafiz is sweeping Khuda Hafiz not merely off roadside signs and hoardings but from its niches of every description. Say Khuda Hafiz as a parting wish to a friend whom you may have met in the course of normal business of life, and you can now be sure to receive an Allah Hafiz in return. My brother, cousins, brothers-in-law, sisters-in-law, almost one and all, reel off an Allah Hafiz hot on the heel of my Khuda Hafiz. If my departure after the meeting is somehow delayed by a few moments -- that is, after I have already said Khuda Hafiz, and they Allah Hafiz -- they are likely to take the opportunity to say Allah Hafiz for a second time. This, I suspect, is to nullify my Khuda Hafiz. But wait. There is more to come. A close relative of mine, fully grown though still a bit short of my advanced years, glared at me the other day and solemnly proclaimed: "to say Khuda Hafiz is act of gunah". Five- year olds have returned my Khuda Hafiz with a defiant Allah Hafiz. And, yes, television newscasters now end their news bulletin with Allah Hafiz, invariably on the state-owned TV channel but also on other channels. So do radio broadcasters. Ministers in the present government of the country, as well as other political leaders, never fail to end their speeches with Allah Hafiz. (This, by the way, does not mean my endorsement of Khuda Hafiz either in the public domain.) Inquisitive as ever, I asked all and sundry how did such a sweeping change come about. This was met, for the most part, with a shrug and a strange I-don't-know-but- this-is-the-proper-thing-to-do reply. A senior friend of mine told me that this was entirely a political matter. And he was not joking. Astonished, I asked for an elaboration. "Arey bhai", he proceeded to explain, "the Awami Leaguers say Khuda Hafiz; the BNP- wallas say Allah Hafiz. Satisfied?" Of course I was not satisfied with the answer, even though the politics of the situation did seem to ring a bell. But surely the matter cannot be entirely as trivial as that. I soon promised myself, as well as a few others, that I would go to the bottom of it all. I now proceed to redeem my pledge. I believe even the most ardent exponent of Allah Hafiz will concede that whether a Muslim says Allah or utter Khuda, he or she means one and the same Supreme Being. This concession is, in fact, not a matter of magnanimity on the part of the Allah Hafizites. It has the force of logic behind it: if by uttering Khuda Hafiz one can lose his Faith, then all the countless millions who must have uttered it in the historical past would have to be considered non-Muslim. A dreadful thought indeed! My ancestors, bless their souls, many of them devout Muslims, were all attuned to Khuda Hafiz. They certainly did not belong to ayyam-e jahilia. There can be little doubt therefore that Muslims mean the same Supreme Being -- I shall be using the term quite often for the sake of neutrality between "Allah" and "Khuda" in the present context -- no matter what name is used for Him. There must therefore be some compelling reason for the rush to abandon Khuda Hafiz in favour of Allah Hafiz. What is it? To start with, is the latter expression more Islamic? "Allah" is certainly the preeminent name of the Supreme Being to Muslims. But this may come as a surprise to many that the word Allah has pre-Islamic roots. Some defenders of Allah Hafiz are cagey about the pre-Islamic roots of the word even though Allah's greatness certainly does not depend on considerations of etymology of words used to describe or address Him. There is some recognition in the Allah Hafiz camp of the historic connection. Take the following sentences, for example: " The word "Allah" was not unknown to the Arabs before Muhammad (pbuh) (13: 16, 29: 61-63 etc.) They also had knowledge that man was a servant of Allah: this is seen in the name Abd Allah." [Shankhipta Islami Biswakosh, Brief Islamic Encylopaedia, (in Bengali). Islamic Foundation Bangladesh. 1982. Vol. I. p.67. The translation is mine. The numbers in parentheses are those of Qur'ânic suras and verses, respectively.] The Biswakosh also acknowledges that, "According to some linguists the word Allah was derived by adding alif and laam to the word ilah." This acknowledgement is almost grudging and apologetic. Note the expression "was not unknown", or "according to some linguists". There is also omission of the fact that the pre-Islamic name Abd Allah, quoted above, also happened to be the name of the father of the Prophet of Islam himself. The fact is, it is almost certain that the word "Allah" is of pre-Islamic origin, and was widely used by the Meccans before the advent of Islam. The following is from E.J. Brill's First Encyclopaedia of Islam [ E.J.Brill, New York, 1987, p.302]: "Before Islam. That the Arabs, before the time of Muhammed, accepted and worshipped, after a fashion, a supreme god called Allâh, -- "the Ilâh", or the god, if the form is of genuine Arabic origin; if of Aramaic, from Alâhâ, "the god" -- seems absolutely certain." The Meccan's concept of the Supreme Being was of course, very different from that in Islam. But the word used to denote Him was the same in both and we are here concerned with the word, and there is little disagreement that the two expressions "Allah" and "Khuda" refer to the same Being.    There are numerous references in the Qur'ân to the pagan's use of the word "Allah". The following examples should suffice [The translations are from Abdullah Yusuf Ali's well-known Qur'ânic Translation and Commentary. The 'Allah' in the original Arabic has been substituted here for 'God' used by Yusuf Ali]. "They [the pagans] swear their strongest Oaths by Allah..." [VI(An'âm): 109.].Or, "If indeed thou ask them [the pagans] who has created the heavens and the earth...they will certainly reply, 'Allah'....". [ XXIX (Ankabut):61]. Or, "And if indeed thou ask them who it is that sends down rain from the sky,....they will certainly reply, 'Allah'..." [XXIX(Ankabut):63]. Very similar are the references to 'Allah' in verses XXXIX: 25, XXXIX: 38, and XLIII: 87. The importance given to 'Allah' in earlier societies was also reflected in a major historical document: the Treaty of Hudaybiya. As is well known, in drawing up the treaty document the Prophet of Islam had instructed the scribe to begin with " In the name of Allah, the Compassionate [Rahman], the Merciful [Rahim]. But Suhayl b. Amr, representing the Quraysh, objected to Rahman and Rahim and insisted that only "In the name of Allah" be written instead. This was agreed to. (Ibn Ishaq, The life of Muhammad, Tr. A. Guillaume, Oxford University Press. 1967. P. 504.) It should be evident by now that we are on track of a question of some importance: what is in a name? Let us pursue the matter a little further for more insight from the Qur'ân itself. But let us also note in passing that Christian Arabs still use 'Allah' for their western co-religionist's 'God'. That does not make them any more Muslim than a Muslim's use of God makes him Christian. The Qur'ân strongly suggests that whatever name one might give the Supreme Being, it is proper, so long as it is one of asma-al-husna, or 'the beautiful names' of His. Thus: "The most beautiful names belong to God: so call on Him by them; but shun such men as use profanity in His names.... (VII( Al- A'raf): 180). Again, " Say: 'Call upon God [Allah] or call upon Rahman: by whatever name ye call Him, (it is well): for to Him belong the Most Beautiful Names....'" [ XVII(Bani Isrâ-il): 110] As one commentator explains: "Allah has not just two names ["Allah" and "Rahman"] but many more. By whatever name one calls Him, he is calling the same Being" [The Holy Qur'an al Karim. Bangla Translation and Brief Tafsir. Original: Hazrat Maulana Mufti Muhammad Shafi. Translation and edition: Maulana Muhiuddid Khan. The translation from Bengali is mine.] In his commentary on LIX: 24, in which the phrase "the beautiful names" again appears, the same commentator explains: "Allah has beautiful names. In the Holy Qur'ân there is no definite indication of the number of such names". Hadith is mentioned as the source of the ninety -nine names commonly associated with the Supreme Being. But the commentator emphasizes that there are other names of His and these are numbered in the hundreds. It is useful to point out here that Rahman is not only one of the many "attributes" of Allah; there are places in the Qur'ân where "Rahman" is used in lieu of "Allah". The verse XVII: 110, quoted above, ["call upon Allah or call upon Rahman..."] is an important case. But there are other instances. Thus, sura LV ( Rahman ) starts with the name "Rahman", not "Allah". Again, in LXVII (Mulk): 3 one finds: " No want of proportion wilt thou see in the creation of Rahman....". Here too "Rahman" has been used in lieu of "Allah". Having thus established that it is entirely permissible to call the Supreme Being by any of His names,( "Allah", "Rahman", or any other name), so long as it is not profane, and especially if it is beautiful, let us turn to the name which is the bone of contention here. As everyone knows, "Khuda" is a Persian word (actually Khuda in Persian, and slightly modified to Khuda in Bangla), not Arabic. With its root khud or khod, it simply means self-existing. It is important in the present context to remember how intertwined has the word "Khuda" been with Bengali Muslim culture. In terms of its usage in everyday life, it is at least as common as "Allah", perhaps more so. The folklore of Bengal is strewn with it. One finds numerous invocations of Khuda in the lyrics of the region. Many Islamic Nazrul songs, for example, invoke Khuda and these songs are part of our cultural heritage, as are many devotional folk songs. I have seen Nazrul lyrics that contain both "Khuda" and "Allah" in the same composition. It must also be appropriate to recall here briefly how prominent a place the word "Khuda" occupied in the culture of the land of its origin, Persia. I found it difficult to resist the quote: "O Jami, the road of guidance to Khuda is naught but love". This is a line from the Diwans of the great mystic poet and scholar Jami . Mulla Nurud-Din Jami, it is important to note, was an orthodox Muslim and was not enamoured of pre-Islamic Persian culture. [See Edward G. Browne, A Literary History of Persia, Cambridge. 1976. (Original publication:1902). I have introduced "Khuda" from the Persian text, in place of Browne's translation in which "God" was used.] His piety did not prevent him from using "Khuda". Or, look at a line from Rumi, another great mystic poet: "That Khuda who on Creation's Primal Day / The first foundation of thy soul did lay/..." [ibid. Here too I have substituted "Khuda" from the Persian text for "God" in the translation by Browne.] To go back to the question of propriety of the use of Khuda Hafiz, the word "Khuda" is certainly not profane; it does not disparage the Supreme Being; it in fact compares rather well with other accepted names of His in Arabic; and the idea conveyed by the word finds powerful support from the Qur'ân itself. That the word is not profane or even disparaging should be obvious. It is also an unambiguously beautiful name. For its lack of ambiguity, compare it with a couple of Arabic words often used to describe a particular attribute of the Supreme Being but which have other meanings as well. Take, for example, "Jabbar". Its dictionary meaning includes "a tyrant", "a giant", "someone pitiless". But when applied to the Supreme Being, it is taken to mean "the Most Powerful". Or note that one dictionary meaning of "Mutakabbar" is "haughty", but is not used in this sense when applied to the Supreme Being, or that "Quahhar" also literally means "haughty" but not when applied to Him. By contrast, there is no double meaning to the word "Khuda". It unambiguously means "self-existing". Perhaps even more significantly, the meaning attached to "Khuda" is also exactly the same as that conveyed by a combination of attributes of the Supreme Being described in one of the most important suras of the Qur'an (Sura CXII (Ikhlas)) The translation of the phrase "Allah -as- samad: lum yaled wa lum yulud" is : "God, the Eternal, the Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten" [ Translation, Yusuf Ali]. "Samad" and "Wa lum yulud" convey a sense that is identical with the meaning of "Khuda". To top it, note that the word "Quyyum", used as an attribute of the Supreme Being also means, in Arabic, "self-existing", or "self-subsisting", which is identical with the sense conveyed by "Khuda". It has often been argued that the name "Allah" encompasses all conceivable attributes of His. The Islami Bishwakosh, referred to above, insists: " The name "Allah" cannot be translated into any other language. Besides, the nouns and adjectives used by Allah in the Qur'ân to describe His own being, attributes, and actions, are all implicit in the name Allah". But this is merely an assertion and has no logical foundation to it. It flies in the face of the quotations from the Qur'ân given above, suggesting that Allah can be called by any name, including "Rahman", for example. Moreover, on a different plane, if indeed all His attributes were subsumed in "Allah", there would be no need for the name "Allah" to be followed by the host of other names, as in the popular invocation of the names of Allah, prescribed in the hadith. If "Allah" is all encompassing, then, by definition, the other names are superfluous, which is evidently not the case in the Islamic tradition. Why, then, is the rush to jettison Khuda Hafiz in favour of Allah Hafiz? Could this be because the word "Khuda" is Persian, that is, non- Arabic or ´Ajami, the term strictly meaning "Persian", but sometimes taken to mean, generally derogatorily, all non-Arabs? One suspects that this is indeed the case, and if so, the detractors of Khuda Hafiz are in considerable trouble. The Qur'ân dwells, in a number of places, on the question of the revelation of its text in the Arabic language and explains why: so that people (Arabs) would understand it. Thus: [The Qur'ân is] A Book, whereof the verses are explained in detail; -- a Qur'ân in Arabic, for people who understand;..." [XLI (Ha-Mim Sajda):3]. Similarly: "We have made it a Qur'ân in Arabic, that you may be able to understand." [XLIII(Zukhruf):3] One could formulate a thesis, if only for the sake of argument that what is being suggested is that the Qur'ân is meant for speakers of Arabic alone. Those who would insist on saying only Allah Hafiz in all circumstances, and never Khuda Hafiz, simply because the former expression is Arabic while the latter is not, is in fact in danger of being too close for comfort to this thesis. On the other hand, to its proponents, as well to others, Islam is a universal religion, meant for all mankind. One cannot, at one and the same time, accept only what is Arabic and also see his religion as something universal, cutting across the huge number of linguistic barriers that separate the peoples of the world from one another. The Qur'ân itself can be quoted as having recognised this diversity: "If God had so willed, He would have made you a single people.." [V ( Mâida): 48 ]. The proponents of Allah Hafiz, while offering little substantive reason for their uncompromising abhorrence of Khuda Hafiz, are also blind to this diversity. The above analysis is not to suggest that all those who switched to Allah Hafiz, and wanted others to follow them, have done so for motives of piety alone or that they are a bunch of ignoramuses. There is little doubt that a substantial body of the proponents of the new orthodoxy has a political agenda of its own, though not in the trivial sense in which my interlocutor mentioned above used it. That agenda is one of "Islamisation" of the society in their image of the religion, and is all too evident today. Still, this essay has primarily been a defence of reason. It is essential to inquire, to probe, to see for ourselves rather than see things the way the establishment, religious or lay, wants us to. While writing this piece I was reminded of the well-known fable of the man who, having been told that a falcon had just flown away with his ears, pursues the peregrine without bothering to find out if his two precious organs were really missing. Nothing is lost by the use of the word "Khuda", and no sin committed. To the inquiring mind, --one that refuses to pursue the proverbial falcon -- I say: Khuda Hafiz! It is quite possible that by abandoning such pursuit he or she will have time for more productive ones. Mahfuzur Rahman is a former UN official.    http://www.milligazette.com/Archives/2004/01-15Mar04-Print-Edition/0103200455.htm   AND   http://www.milligazette.com/Archives/2004/16-31Mar04-Print-Edition/1603200449.htm   From abhinanditamathur at gmail.com Sun May 31 23:39:42 2009 From: abhinanditamathur at gmail.com (abhinandita mathur) Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 23:39:42 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] telephone pyaar: a link of love Message-ID: <19aa1b810905311109u5950b339mc171dde008254e63@mail.gmail.com> Hello A new project to share: http://www.youtube.com/user/abhinanditamathur 'Telephone Pyaar' is a reconstruction of lovers conversations on the phone. Its named after the super Nazia Hasan Song. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIorz5TCwNM To read more about the project. See this http://khojworkshop.org/project/telephone_pyaar thanks abhinandita From vignesh at hss.iitd.ac.in Thu May 28 11:42:02 2009 From: vignesh at hss.iitd.ac.in (Dr. P. Vigneswara Ilavarsan.) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 11:42:02 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Call for papers - ICTD - New Delhi -11&12 March - New Delhi Message-ID: <012c01c9df5c$430d7330$2e64640a@user72a331adbd> Dear All: Apologies for the unsolicited email. Regards Vignesh http://www.iitd.ac.in/events/ICTD2010/ ICTs and Development: An International Workshop for Theory, Practice, & Policy 11-12 March, 2010 Indian Institute of Technology Delhi, New Delhi Sponsored by International Development Research Centre, Canada Unpublished, original empirical papers are invited for the forthcoming international workshop on ICTs and Development: An International Workshop for Theory, Practice, & Policy to be conducted by the Indian Institute of Technology (IIT), New Delhi, India, during 11-12 March 2010. The workshop aims to provide a forum for scholars to share their empirical research with academic experts, policymakers, and activists from the regional and international development community. Papers should examine how mobile phones, computers, and the Internet influence the empowerment of marginal individuals and communities, including whether ICTs create and enhance livelihood opportunities for people in the developing world. Papers should be in the range of 5,000-8,000 words (including abstract and bibliography) and should include a clear discussion of the implications of the findings for development policy and/or practice. No more than twelve papers will be selected by the workshop organizers for presentation.The first author of each paper chosen will be given air fare and lodging/meals. The workshop is part of the project, ICTs and Urban Micro Enterprises: Identifying and Maximizing Opportunities for Economic Development, and is supported by the International Development Research Centre, Canada. The organizers are committed to finding an appropriate publication venue for all papers accepted for the workshop. Deadlines: Submission of manuscripts: 1st October 2009 Announcement of results: 1st December 2009 Submission of final version of the paper: 1st February 2010 For submission of manuscripts and other enquiries, please write to ICTD2010 at gmail.com Workshop Organizers Dr. P. Vigneswara Ilavarasan (IIT Delhi) Prof. Mark R. Levy (Michigan State University) From chandni.parekh at gmail.com Sun May 31 00:15:42 2009 From: chandni.parekh at gmail.com (Chandni Parekh) Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 00:15:42 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Internship in Kashmir, June 21-July 5 Message-ID: >From Mohan Kumawat Dear Friends, Four Young students undertook a jouney in 2002 from their cozy homes and middle class schools to the relief camps of Gujarat. They went with the Anhad team to do relief work and documentation of the 2002 Gujarat carnage. What they saw and witnessed during that period totally shook them and they decided to form Youth for Peace to fight hatred and prejudices amongst youth. Using creative means Youth for Peace has reached out to thousands of young students across the country during the past 7 years since its inception. Youth for Peace is dedicated to the values of secularism, equality, peace, justice and communal harmony. Youth for Peace has organised major youth conventions, seminars, expeditions across India, national level competitions, has responded to Tsunami and to the earthquake in Kashmir. Youth for Peace team distributed relief material – blankets, warm clothes, tin sheets for relief shelters in Kupwara district of Kashmir immediately after the earthquake in 2005. In 2006, Youth for Peace (Anhad) sent a team of 30 students spent over a month working in villages in Uri and Tangdar. Youth for Peace(Anhad) is planning to send 10 -15 volunteers for 15 days to do internship in the Youth clubs and Women empowerment centres being run by Anhad in far flung villages of Uri and Tangdhar. The trip is also meant to help young people understand the life of ordinary Kashmiri people and understand the problems of living in a conflict zone. Interested volunteers will have to bear their own cost of traveling to Srinagar and back from there and contribute Rs 2000 towards food expenses. The volunteers should be able to rough it out and stay at very ordinary places arranged by organisers. Dates: June 21-July 5, 2009 Eligibility Criteria: 18-25 yrs. The candidates should write approx 500 words on why they should be considered for this internship programme. Last date for applying June 15, Send your applications on plane paper to : Youth for Peace(Anhad) , 23, Canning Lane, New Delhi-110001. Phone :23070740/ 22 or mail it to youthfpeace at gmail.com With regards Mansi Sharma Seema Duhan